00:04:52 -!- evenant has quit. 00:11:59 11:25:59 but autoconf noticed that youre system didn't need that, and commented out the line 00:12:00 11:26:05 s/youre/you're/ 00:12:51 Four words four words! 00:14:45 :D 00:14:52 oklopol, OOTS fan? 00:15:09 object oriented transsexuality 00:15:11 yes 00:15:33 but err is it some rpg kinda thing? 00:15:51 i think i've heard my friends talk about something very close to that 00:16:19 ah order of the stick 00:16:24 do you mean the comic or the game? 00:16:36 probably the first one. i've read very little of it. 00:18:01 Comic 00:18:40 i've read a few random ones, it's not really for me. 00:20:55 i don't really follow any comics, i just occasionally accidentally read whole comics because i just keep pressing next until they run out 00:26:06 why isn't my body symmetric 00:31:54 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:33:01 -!- oklopol has joined. 00:44:20 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 00:49:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:50:42 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:39:45 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 01:39:45 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:47:35 -!- poiuy_qwert has joined. 03:46:32 Hi, friendly programmers. How would I turn the Haskell expression (all (`elem` ['a'..'z'])) into Python? 04:19:58 i know python, if you explain what that does i can give you the equivalent 04:22:41 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 04:22:57 kerlo 04:23:38 That checks that all characters in a string are not before 'a' and not after 'z'. 04:23:55 s/not/neither/; s/and not/nor/ 04:24:11 What does it return, a boolean? 04:24:37 In python that would be stuff not in ['a'..'z'], IIRC 04:24:45 A boolean, yes. 04:24:53 Just look up the "in" operator in python 04:25:16 I take it ['a'..'z'] iz the same thing as 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'. 04:25:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:25:57 Yes, though I forgot the exact syntax. 04:26:01 It's been a while 04:27:14 [c for c in yourString if ord(c) in "acdefghijklmopqrstuvwyz"] 04:27:26 wat 04:27:35 string.lowercase, I guess. 04:27:37 sorry 04:28:02 if yourString == ''.join([c for c in yourString if ord(c) in "acdefghijklmopqrstuvwyz"]) 04:28:41 I'm not filtering out all non-lowercase-letter characters... 04:28:51 good point 04:29:21 I refuse to use a language other than Python! 04:29:36 Then totally use not in 04:29:40 I don't really know anything other than Python and Haskell, and the Glasgow Haskell Compiler doesn't work where I want it to. 04:29:47 Oh, you said not in. 04:30:18 >>> 'foo' not in string.lowercase 04:30:19 True 04:30:23 import re; isonlyletters = re.compile('[^a-zA-Z]'); if isonlyletters.match(yourString): 04:30:32 That comes across as wrong. 04:30:48 The operator not in is defined to have the inverse true value of in. 04:31:01 Well, then, not in isn't helping. 04:31:01 The operators in and not in test for collection membership. x in s evaluates to true if x is a member of the collection s, and false otherwise 04:31:17 Is it not? 04:31:27 Using regexes is kind of ugly, but oh well. 04:32:03 import re; nice = re.compile('[a-z]{2-8}'); print nice.match(yourString) 04:32:17 Will that be True if and only if yourString is 2-8 letters a-z? 04:32:53 yeah, but not including A-Z 04:33:01 You know what? I'm just going to do something else entirely. :-P 04:33:10 you need to add re.I as second parameter or add A-Z in the [] too 04:33:13 Attempt to do everything; if some exception is thrown, undo everything. 04:34:14 Sound like a plan? 04:34:37 go ahaid 04:34:47 I mean, I'm going to check for failure anyway. 05:12:29 -!- Sgeo_ has quit ("Leaving"). 05:19:34 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:55:08 -!- tombom has joined. 07:56:14 -!- tombom_ has joined. 07:56:14 -!- tombom_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:13:16 -!- Jophish has joined. 08:47:24 -!- Jophish has quit (Connection timed out). 09:09:13 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("Client Excited"). 09:28:34 -!- poiuy_qwert has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:41:42 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:41:45 -!- tombom_ has joined. 09:55:02 -!- tombom_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:55:05 -!- tombom has joined. 10:02:53 A rather unusual job: http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/00001618.html 10:03:13 Note how altruistic they are: "We also do quite a bit of manual research. We *suffer* so your kids don't." 10:13:49 :P 11:15:28 have you seen the photo of the ultimate nerd? <<< no, i haven't 11:17:16 if someone knows any good befunge interpreter <<< i hear this cfunge thing is pretty cool 11:25:44 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:51:06 oklopol, thanks 11:52:43 ais523, hi 11:53:20 hi 11:53:22 question: what is the exact issue with threaded intercal and external C code 11:53:32 I might have an idea how to solve it 11:53:41 but it depends very much on what the exact issue is 11:54:17 AnMaster: the problem is that threaded intercal relies on program flow always being inside main 11:54:29 and it uses setjmp/longjmp to record where in main() it's got to 11:54:36 ais523, hm... but surely it will sometimes call stuff like putchar or printf? 11:54:48 yep 11:54:54 but that's inside a statement, and statements are atomic 11:54:58 between statements it's always in main() 11:55:05 within a statement it can call whatever it likes 11:55:25 ais523, would it be possible to mark it to always interact with the first main thread or something like that? 11:55:31 and other threads being pure intercal 11:55:54 ais523, considering you could have pure C threads that never return but run in the background iirc 11:56:11 cooperative multithreading 11:56:16 true 11:56:27 ais523, a global interpreter lock then? 11:56:29 :) 11:56:31 nah 11:56:31 and the real problem is that each thread has a separate NEXT stack 11:56:37 which corresponds to a different call stack in C 11:56:50 ais523, setcontext/getcontext? 11:56:56 so they effectively have to be different threads, or different processes, in the C code if you're mixing threading models 11:57:00 I do have an idea on how to solve it 11:57:04 oh? 11:57:34 ais523, my idea was to make it so only one intercal thread interacted with C. But maybe that won't work. 11:58:10 not the way you describe the issue 11:58:16 which would be INTERCAL thread = C process 11:58:26 hm 11:58:46 ais523, you mean you have OS level threads in ick? 11:58:56 as the solution 11:59:00 not at the moment, but the only way to do C + threaded INTERCAL seems to be to use them 11:59:03 then how would you sync them 11:59:05 and OS level processes, not threads 11:59:11 ais523, what about setcontext/getcontext? 11:59:12 and synched using mutexes and other such constructs 11:59:56 ais523, separate processes would sure mess up IFFI. 12:00:08 well, yes 12:00:14 but I tend to document such restrictions 12:00:17 yeah 12:00:20 and work out insane solutions to them later 12:00:50 ais523, cfunge even uses unlocked stdio when possible to reduce overhead... Definitely not thread safe 12:01:03 thread-safe != process-safe 12:01:11 nor process safe 12:01:21 part of the reason to use processes not threads is that pretty much nothing's shared between INTERCAL threads 12:01:32 oh btw cfunge now has an option to use fully buffered stdout, reducing time on mycology when not redirecting to /dev/null by about 20% 12:01:33 only abstention status is shared 12:02:01 for /dev/null about 1-2% due to also using a larger buffer 12:02:35 ais523, hm what about scheduling? isn't it documented to be on a round robin basis? or is that "may change in future"? 12:03:50 ais523, hm I believe cfunge could be partly made thread safe though, without locks... 12:04:18 AnMaster: the documentation's more fun than round-robin 12:04:22 1) only funge space + a few other bits of global state are shared between funge threads... 12:04:26 it's documented as "will not get out of synch by more than one command" 12:04:31 2) funge space could use CAS for the static area 12:04:35 which round-robin fulfils, but which could be fulfilled in other ways too 12:04:57 yeah that is messy... 12:05:26 ais523, is that command == one statement? 12:05:49 or some sub-statement thing? 12:06:09 one command is meant to == one statement 12:06:11 ah 12:06:22 although WHILE messes it up quite badly, I'm not sure if I've documented that 12:07:13 FILE, REFC, SOCK, SCKE and a few other would need locks btw... In core only funge space and creating/destroying threads... 12:07:19 but funge threads are round robin 12:07:22 so pointless 12:07:45 nah, not even going to try to make cfunge thread safe 12:07:55 or multi-process safe 12:08:24 (well it is, doesn't use shared memory or such, but then stuff like funge space isn't shared. separate instances) 12:12:01 blergh this sucks. Was profiling a program. Turns out that most time is spent in one of the functions with shortest time / call. And there are enough 1594330251 calls to it. 12:12:15 + there is no simple way to make it faster... 12:12:24 in that case, change your algorithm so it's called less 12:12:35 that was my solution in a similar profiling situation 12:12:50 ais523, called from lots of different places in the code. And large code base 12:13:05 (crossfire-server) 12:16:28 actually there seems to be a tiny bit of thing that could help here... 12:38:39 unhello. 12:38:42 -> 12:43:14 When leaving, always remember to unhello any helloes you might have said when entering a conversation, otherwise the channel might run out of resources. 12:44:02 fizzie: what OS are you using? All modern OSs restore helloes to the common pool when a client quits on a connection to an IRC server running there... 12:44:31 I still think it's good manners to explicitly unhello. 12:44:54 presumably that's why his became so popular instead, they're automatically deallocated when they go out of scope 13:00:23 heh 13:01:01 urgh, profiling data so large that gprof takes over 2 minutes to load it... wth 13:01:45 -!- Mony has joined. 13:02:36 2 minutes? 13:02:46 when profiling Perl, it often takes 10 minutes to half an hour to process all the details 13:02:49 plop 13:04:21 Hey Mona 13:04:35 je suis pas Mona Lisa ok >_< 13:05:47 ais523, really? 13:05:47 wow 13:05:59 * ais523 vaguely wonders if a Mony / Slearah conversation here would be in English or French 13:06:05 ais523, I would have expected it to be a lot faster 13:06:12 But when I say Mona, I mean Mona from 2ch. 13:06:40 -!- Asztal has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:06:58 -!- Asztal has joined. 13:09:21 [14:06] * ais523 vaguely wonders if a Mony / Slearah conversation here would be in English or French <-- maybe in frenglish 13:10:27 hm 13:24:21 so 13:24:26 so what? 13:24:34 sorry, couldn't resist 13:24:38 three things 13:24:39 "We *suffer* so your kids don't." 13:24:42 excellent job. 13:24:45 04:29 kerlo: I don't really know anything other than Python and Haskell, and the Glasgow Haskell Compiler doesn't work where I want it to. 13:24:47 that explains a lot. 13:24:50 and 13:24:55 I'm probably going to implement INTERCAL. 13:25:01 yay at the last one 13:25:09 the INTERCAL market could do with a new compiler to drive innovatoin 13:25:11 *innovation 13:25:18 Market. 13:25:25 Tons of people buy INTERCAL. 13:25:28 what version do you plan to implement first? INTERCAL-72? something custom? something compatible with one of the existing compilers? 13:25:37 probably INTERCAL-72 with my own tweaks 13:25:44 What I would totally buy is the original INTERCAL compiler on punchcards. 13:25:44 for example, I'm probably going to change the error messages a bit 13:25:49 but the actual generated code should behave properly 13:25:54 I could frame it or something 13:26:01 ais523: i have plenty of good ideas: compiler options in the filesize, for instance. 13:26:03 -!- jix has joined. 13:26:36 ehird: filesize? that's ingenious, I was planning to put it in the last-modified time 13:26:40 but filesize is probably more portable 13:26:51 exactly 13:26:55 portability is key! 13:27:11 oh, I also want to include an INTERCAL IDE 13:27:17 and I have a seriously perverse way of doing it 13:27:20 I wanted to write an INTERCAL IDE, too 13:27:22 I have plans 13:27:26 hard on me, hard for the user 13:27:37 involving an entirely new sort of highlighting that isn't syntax highlighting but is just as useful 13:27:47 actually, I should implement that seriously, it might be useful for other languages too 13:27:52 also, I was going to add unlockable content 13:28:05 because I was trying to think "what's the most ridiculous thing I can put in an IDE", and unlockable content was it 13:28:12 ais523: let's put it this way: the non-OS X distribution will be a qemu running linux that boots right into GNUStep and starts the ide 13:28:22 then it communicates with your filesystem & INTERCAL with a socket 13:28:30 (you have to manually start intercal with the interfacing program) 13:28:52 how does it act on OS X? 13:29:00 we can combine our ideas, they aren't incompatible so far 13:29:31 ais523: on OS X, it acts like a windows application circa win95, ported to OS X (badly) 13:29:36 except it was originally written for OS X 13:29:39 ok 13:29:47 what graphics toolset? 13:30:16 I suggest X11 plus Athena widgets 13:30:23 but designed in such a way it nevertheless only works on OS X 13:30:25 ais523: I was planning on using an unholy blend of Cocoa and Carbon — Carbon so that I could make native controls behave completely unlike normal 13:30:36 Ooh, I like the "unlockable content in an IDE" thing. "You have to grind at the project settings dialog before you unlock version control integration." 13:30:40 haha 13:30:49 ais523: my plans are mostly interface-wise, so yours will blend well with mine 13:31:17 ais523: I was planning to do the hyper-detailed status bar of files as a bunch of unfocused windows aligned below in a grid; if you move one, it snaps back, if you resize one, it snaps back, if you focus it, it focues the text 13:31:23 if you move the file window, they tag along dozily 13:31:29 but if you move one over another, they swap places 13:31:37 (like a toolbar rearrangement dialog) 13:32:29 anyway, my revolutionary highlighting idea is repetition highlighting 13:32:42 heh, clever 13:32:54 the agile junkies would love that (because they'd try and stop it happening) 13:33:07 I haven't worked out all the details, but things are highlighted according to how much of the surrounded code was repeated, and how many times the locality had been repeated 13:33:18 that would have saved me a couple of days in one project I did 13:33:32 trying to track down a bug which was due to accidentally pasting in the first half of a table of contents twice 13:33:37 *constants 13:34:21 ais523: do you think people would actually use it with the silly vmware distribution? :D 13:34:30 at least one person would 13:34:36 you? 13:34:36 but preferably qemu, I've got that installed already 13:34:40 yes, me 13:34:42 to try it out 13:34:44 possibly qemu 13:34:47 iirc vmware is faster 13:34:48 but lots of other people would have a look though 13:34:50 and also, it can share the FS 13:34:51 without a socket 13:35:01 actually, I suggest you just distribute it as a bootable .iso 13:35:18 that nonetheless only boots inside a virtualiser 13:35:18 ais523: I think it's funny when a native distribution ends up being a wrapper against an emulator of some kind 13:35:22 for example, Google Earth on linux uses Wine 13:35:28 (yes yes wine isn't an emulator) 13:35:56 well, even linking against a compatibility library is amusing 13:36:06 ais523: I was going to call it IDE: INTERCAL Destruction Enabler 13:36:17 or perhaps Defenestration 13:36:21 INTERCAL Defenestration Enabler 13:36:42 I had a great name for it, but I can't remember what it was 13:39:04 I had an excellent name for my compiler yesterday but I forgot it 13:39:26 does it end "ick"? 13:39:33 oh, wait 13:39:38 I was going to call the compiler eww(1) 13:39:51 or perhaps ugh(10 13:39:53 *1) 13:39:54 a break with tradition, that's an INTERCAL tradition in itself 13:39:59 exactly! 13:40:05 ais523: I'm going to have a custom license, just to infuriate debian 13:40:11 surely you should break with tradition by not breaking with tradition, though? 13:40:16 it'll be contradictory, but also have clauses on how to resolve contradictions 13:40:20 also, make it one that's GPL-compatible at least in case I need to steal code 13:40:32 ais523: it should basically come down to the MIT license 13:40:36 ok 13:40:42 actually, even better: 13:40:45 i was also going to have an EULA 13:40:59 which basically required the user to be insane to use the program, or at least to pretend to be insane while interacting with it 13:41:10 but the EULA presenter would be written in intercal 13:41:13 add a clause stating that all advertising to do with the distribution must mention and thank the Regents of the University of California, although mention that they don't endorse your code 13:41:17 so first it'd compile the compiler, with the eula bit off 13:41:22 which will only compile the eula 13:41:26 it'll compile the eula, run it 13:41:26 also, I'd just reject the EULA 13:41:29 and use the code anyway 13:41:31 then the eula will flip the bit on the compiler 13:41:42 ais523: I'd make sure it doesn't actually impose any obligations 13:41:46 also, you'd have to manually hex edit the file 13:41:49 it will presumably be open-source, I should be able to edit out the EULA 13:41:51 and find out which bit to change 13:42:36 why would that require hex-editing, anyway? 13:42:39 ehird, why would qemu be needed for this IDE btw? 13:42:43 besides, most EULAs can be modified using strings 13:42:56 AnMaster: because it'd require gnustep, and also modify stuff in /etc and the like 13:43:16 very insane and not really in an intercal-y way 13:43:20 intercaly* 13:43:32 AnMaster: anything sufficiently different from expectations is intercally 13:43:36 hm 13:43:43 people are starting to form certain expectations about INTERCAL, we need to shock them out of it 13:43:43 requiring qemu to run an IDE that looks like a windows 95 application ported to OS X ported to GNUStep sounds sufficiently intercal to me 13:43:45 in a modern way, that is 13:43:54 it's applying the principles of INTERCAL to a modern age. 13:43:56 or something. 13:44:13 ehird, that is too post-modern 13:44:25 oooh. post-intercal? 13:44:35 no, post-modern would be the compiler starting qemu, opening the IDE, which runs a preloader, and then opens vi on the host 13:45:45 ais523: how do you think an INTERCAL repl would work? 13:46:02 each line you write is appended to a program that accumulates lines 13:46:10 that's just boring 13:46:17 then it runs the whole thing, repeating input that you gave on previous runs, and not printing output that it printed on previous runs 13:46:27 so you can do a COME FROM or whatever and modify what you wrote on previous lines of the REPL 13:46:34 it sounds boring, but it drives me mad thinking about the implications 13:47:32 the best bits of INTERCAL are the bits that look innocent 13:47:51 anyway, my plan is to announce the new compiler's first working release to alt.lang.intercal on april 2nd, having never talked about it outside of here previously 13:47:57 "just when you thought the releases were over..." 13:48:09 sounds good, I'll try to keep it secret in the meantime 13:48:31 I wonder if anyone else wrote an INTERCAL compiler while being unable to code INTERCAL? 13:48:36 actually, probably most of them 13:48:41 certainly the princeton one 13:48:50 are you planning to write a compiler or an interp? 13:48:56 and at least the princeton people wrote syslib.i 13:48:59 ais523: neo-interpilerism 13:49:08 it had a couple of bugs, but they at least tried 13:49:44 what does the clc in clcintercal stand for? 13:49:45 the author? 13:49:51 yep, it's his initials 13:50:29 maybe i'll call mine CLWNPA 13:51:16 oh, I also intend to have an object system based on Conscientious objectors 13:53:04 how does that work? Beats me. 13:54:25 Huh. 13:54:25 http://www.catb.org/~esr/intercal/nelson.html 13:54:33 Ted Nelson, the Xanadu kook, comments on COME FORM. 14:03:25 -!- M0ny has joined. 14:04:48 I think I'll have an Evil Wrangler. 14:04:55 Instead of ghc's Evil Mangler. 14:05:05 It will be written in Illiterate Perl, which is Perl with the keywords changed to chavspeak. 14:05:16 The Illiterate->Regular Perl translator will be written in a new variant of Literate Perl. 14:05:26 So you need to translate the translator so you can translate the wrangler. 14:05:29 Ahem. Xzibit? 14:07:06 Oh look, qt 4.5 is out. 14:07:22 "The latest version of Webkit is now integrated with the toolkit" 14:07:23 Nice. 14:08:23 http://tinyarro.ws/ <- This is stupid, IDN is flaky and a lot of software will explode on contact with the unicode. 14:09:06 I thought the point of it was so you could make software explode on contact with unicode 14:09:14 no, it's meant to be serious 14:09:20 also, good freaking luck linking to that IRL 14:09:24 which is a major use for tiny urls 14:09:27 yes 14:09:47 they mentioned getting around the Twitter byte limit, but that doesn't work, it's a byte limit not a character limit... 14:10:04 yeah, twitter is written in Ruby, and they expect unicode awareness? :P 14:10:24 it's not hard to get a one byte domain if you really want too, per previous discussions here 14:10:26 is Ruby Unicode-aware? 14:10:41 ais523: ruby 1.9 can do unicode, before that: nope. 14:10:50 well, there was half-baked hacky support for it, but it broke most things. 14:11:07 ais523: it had excellent SIJS support, though 14:11:26 (the main reason for no unicode is basically that all the users were japanese for the majority of its lifetime) 14:12:34 ais523: hey, a link to TAEB on proggit! 14:12:41 yes, I know 14:12:50 that's what persuaded paxed to finally fix the exploit 14:12:59 although he's keeping the nature of the fix secret for the time being 14:13:08 it's not actually about TAEB itself, just the article was posted on the TAEB blog 14:13:26 do nethack devs get some sort of perverse enjoyment out of secrecy? 14:13:40 probably not 14:13:48 but we suspect it's a security-through-obscurity fix 14:14:03 lawl. 14:14:31 "You can verify this by typing "nethack" into two separate terminals, then quickly hitting enter in each" 14:14:42 or, y'know, spawn two `screen`s with nethack in simultaneously via the shell 14:14:45 :P 14:14:56 instead of trying to perfect your 1337 alt-tab-enter skillz 14:15:41 "paxed, one of the admins of nethack.alt.org, patched nethack to use a truly random seed so that this specific exploit can no longer be used on that server." 14:15:44 please say hotbits 14:17:22 actually, the huge hoohah was that it was patched to use a seed from /dev/urandom, but it was cracked anyway 14:17:32 there are people brute-forcing the seed from the random numbers observed in-game 14:17:32 hahaha 14:17:58 apparently that's the exploit that paxed recently fixed, nobody's sure how yet 14:19:02 ais523: funny thing: 14:19:07 twitter's 140 byte limit comes from SMS 14:19:16 do you think you can enter these links over SMS? :P 14:19:22 pretty silly overall 14:19:31 I have no idea how to type unicode on a mobile phone 14:19:40 apart from the characters that are on the iterated-through lits 14:19:42 *lists 14:19:46 you can't 14:19:48 I don't particularly care to try, either 14:19:50 well, on a regular phone 14:19:59 on an iphone you could probably hack up something to do it 14:20:04 or any other programmable phone 14:21:51 -!- Mony has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:22:59 -!- M0ny has changed nick to Mony. 14:27:37 re the topic: is GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER SPIDERY HA actually in Unicode? 14:27:39 it isn't in my font 14:27:41 yep 14:27:44 here's what it looks like: 14:27:54 http://benfry.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/spidery-170x205.png 14:28:03 as you can tell, it is a spidery creature that laughs at you. 14:29:55 hmm, starting an intercal compiler is hard 14:30:02 all of the standard test programs are implementation specific... 14:30:21 syslib.i is a standard test program and not implementation specific 14:30:41 but then, you need some way to drive it to run 14:30:44 but it doesn't -do- anything that you can perceive :P 14:30:47 what do you mean by standard test programs, anyway? 14:30:55 things like hello world, cat, etc 14:31:02 pit/tests in C-INTERCAL has quite a few test programs, many of which aren't implementation-specific 14:31:04 basic trivial programs that you make work with your implementation as a first step 14:31:20 the reason that things like hello world and cat are specific is that you need extensions to INTERCAL-72 just to be able to write them 14:31:30 yes 14:35:03 what do you plan to ignorret as? 14:35:17 I'd love an INTERCAL compiler that somehow manages to find a legit reason to return 42, or something 14:35:21 * ehird scurries to find out what ignorret is <_< 14:35:49 wow, the first Google hit is acutally relevant 14:35:56 yes, but useless 14:36:03 and none of the others are relevant 14:36:09 basically, ignorret's a simple INTERCAL test program 14:36:12 * ehird downloads ick 14:36:17 that manages to give a different result on each of the main implementatinos 14:36:20 *implementations 14:36:20 ah 14:36:30 where is it? 14:36:40 pit/tests/ignorret.i 14:36:50 see, the first google result /wasn't/ entirely useless 14:36:56 :P 14:37:20 ais523: I stare at blank incomprehension at ignorret.{i,doc}. I'm gonna have a hard time, aren't I? 14:37:31 yes 14:38:16 that particular interaction was never defined in INTERCAL-72 14:38:24 so reading the docs won't help either 14:38:29 Heck, I'd be happy to understand the individual parts. 14:38:34 presumably, this is why all the major interps ended up returning different answers 14:38:49 anyway, the first line should be pretty self-explanatory 14:38:58 as should the third, and the sixth 14:39:01 Yes, if I knew what IGNORE and RETRIEVE were. 14:39:11 STASH is that weird stack thing, right? 14:39:12 IGNORE makes a variable read-only 14:39:22 as in, writes to it silently fail 14:39:33 STASH and RETRIEVE push and pop a variable on its own stack 14:39:42 each variable has a stash stack, STASH pushes it and RETRIEVE pops it 14:40:03 the point of contention is what happens to the read-only status when the stack of the variable it refers to is pushed or popped 14:40:04 okay, so what is .1 after DO STASH .1? 14:40:10 it's a variable name 14:40:16 what is its value, I mean 14:40:39 1 14:40:46 ah, wait 14:40:47 ais523: so 14:40:48 STASH doesn't modify a variable's value 14:40:53 .1 = {1}, stack = {} 14:40:54 .1 = {1}, stack = {1} 14:40:55 then 14:40:58 if you write 2 to .1 14:41:01 .1 = {2}, stack = {1} 14:41:03 then retrieve 14:41:04 yes 14:41:05 .1 = {1}, stack = {} 14:41:13 right, that's simple enough 14:41:16 yep 14:41:19 except there's an ignore line 14:41:25 yes, I'll get to that 14:41:26 DO .1 <- #1 14:41:27 DO STASH .1 14:41:28 DO .1 <- #2 14:41:30 .1 = {2}, {1} 14:41:34 I assume that's uncontroversial 14:41:36 yep 14:42:07 ais523: okay, and retrieve boils down to "DO .N <- popped value" 14:42:12 yes 14:42:15 so, the retrieve after the ignore, 14:42:23 makes .1 = {2}, {} 14:42:31 because .1 is read-only? 14:42:35 that's the J-INTERCAL interpretation 14:42:35 exactly 14:42:41 then, it's still ignored, so writing #3 to .1 does nothing 14:42:47 yep 14:42:55 so the output is 2, 2, 2 14:43:02 well, just 2,2 14:43:08 there's only two READ OUT statements there 14:43:10 oh, right 14:43:19 the CLC-INTERCAL interpretation is this: 14:43:25 actually 14:43:25 ais523: 14:43:29 that'/s the C-INTERCAL interpretation 14:43:32 from .doc 14:43:46 oh, yes 14:43:49 sorry 14:43:51 misremembered 14:43:57 The 14:43:57 ignorance status is stashed along with the variable itself 14:43:58 hmm 14:44:06 CLC-INTERCAL stashes metadata 14:44:09 ais523: does the standard say STASH stashes a variable or the variable's value? 14:44:19 if it says value, mine's right, if it says something more encompassing, CLC-INTERCAL is right 14:44:41 "The values are left intact, and copies thereof are saved for later retrieval by (what else?) the RETRIEVE statement (see section 4.4.6)." 14:44:51 ok, it's values 14:44:58 I'd say CLC-INTERCAL is objectively wrong there, then 14:45:04 since the metadata is absolutely not part of the value 14:45:16 well, INTERCAL evolves over time 14:45:24 I'd say CLC-INTERCAL's interpretation is an extension 14:45:25 true 14:45:27 that makes STASH more useful 14:45:33 yes, that's the thing 14:45:33 J-INTERCAL's behaviour is probably just wrong 14:45:41 J-INTERCAL sucks, as far as I can tell 14:45:52 J-INTERCAL isn't as advanced as either of the others 14:46:48 anyway, I was imagining ignorret would be some highly-gnarly evil program 14:46:56 :P 14:47:02 nope, the simple ones are more fun 14:47:08 it's even portable to different bases 14:47:12 ha 14:49:14 ais523: anyway, I'd probably go with CLC-INTERCAL in practic 14:49:14 e 14:49:17 since it'd be more useful 14:49:22 although... 14:49:26 well, CLC-INTERCAL has a lot more metadata to stash 14:49:28 ais523: does IGNORE make the variable or the variable's value immutable? 14:49:45 C-INTERCAL's solution is to stash all the metadata that CLC-INTERCAL invented, but not metadata invented elsewhere 14:49:54 ehird: there's no difference in standard INTERCAL-72 14:50:05 there is, the stash stack :P 14:50:06 but I mean 14:50:08 "The statement DO IGNORE list causes all subsequent statements to have no effect upon variables and/or arrays named in list" 14:50:14 ok, well 14:50:22 having an effect on the stash stack counts as an effect on variables 14:50:31 so, the RETRRIEVEs do nothing 14:50:34 in strict intercal-72 14:50:35 actually, it wouldn't be beyond the bounds of possibility that it would be impossible to STASH or RETRIEVE an ignored variable 14:50:42 yes 14:50:47 that's the literal reading of IGNORE 14:51:07 ais523: funnily the output would be 2, 2 14:51:09 just like C-INTERCAL 14:51:21 maybe ignorret should be updated to handle that possibility...? 14:52:11 it will be now you've brought that up 14:52:38 it'll make the program slightly more complicated, but may as well test the interactions 14:53:01 anyway, people are always making new observations about the INTERCAL standard 14:53:16 I know that sorear, when he was writing the vim syntax highlight file for INTERCAL, concluded that whitespace was allowed inside keywords 14:53:34 although I'm not sure on what basis, and all implementations I know of ban whitespace in that particular location 14:53:35 ha 14:54:03 i've been thinking about unhelpful helpers 14:54:04 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:54:14 syntactic sugar and the like that looks really useful, but works in such a horrid way that it's hell to use 14:54:33 Release 0.27 (by Alex Smith) 22 Dec 2007 | 1. Joris Huizer pointed out that the manual nowhere says that a GIVE UP line can't be abstained from by line number. 14:54:35 for example, a string literal syntax that packs N 9-bit characters per array element, where N is the successive elements of the fibonacci sequence 14:54:43 it only took 35 years to catch that particular weirdness of the spec 14:54:46 I'm sure that ther are others 14:54:47 heh 14:55:06 C-INTERCAL corrects for that now, AFAIR the other impls didn't bother 14:55:06 ais523: thoughts about that string literal syntax? hmm, maybe even make how it's packed depend on the string content... 14:55:28 the obvious thing to do is have a start-string marker but no end-string marker 14:55:33 and end the string at the next thing that looks like a statement 14:55:47 surprisingly, CLC-INTERCAL would parse that just fine, C-INTERCAL might have more trouble 14:56:58 it would certainly be an interesting fix to the escaping problem 14:59:07 heh 14:59:54 and the start-string marker would presumably be a keyword 14:59:56 rather than punctuation 15:00:01 ais523: why not overload "? 15:00:04 * ehird cackles 15:00:19 that would depend on the syntax 15:00:23 not alternating "/' either, " is always the one overloaded 15:08:38 ais523: do you think CLWNPA is a good name? (Pronounced "interrcall", with a short a). 15:08:45 -!- Asztal has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:08:46 yes, I do 15:08:59 -!- Asztal has joined. 15:17:16 -!- ais523 has quit ("relunching. Why am I eating twice as much as normal nowadays?"). 15:23:52 "The Clang project is an effort to build a set of new 'LLVM native' front-end technologies for the LLVM optimizer and code generator. While Clang is not included in the LLVM 2.5 release, it is continuing to make major strides forward in all areas. Its C and Objective-C parsing and code generation support is now very solid. For example, it is capable of successfully building many real-world applications for X86-32 and X86-64, including the FreeBSD kernel 15:23:54 and gcc 4.2." 15:23:56 AnMaster: maybe clang _is_ ready. 15:24:07 ehird, oh? 15:24:16 I looked at the status page for it recently 15:24:16 well, to a degree 15:24:28 compiling gcc is an impressive achivement 15:24:34 ehird, it can handle most of C but not very much C++ yet 15:24:42 ehird, without or without bootstrapping? 15:24:53 AnMaster: 1. does that matter for C programs? 2. not sure 15:25:09 ehird, no it doesn't matter for C programs. But their goal is C++ 15:25:20 -!- Slereah has quit. 15:25:26 True. But you said that clang wasn't ready for C 15:25:39 when? 15:25:40 Maybe I'll try clang for the next thing I write in C 15:25:49 -!- Slereah has joined. 15:25:50 ehird, also I said it was almost ready iirc 15:26:04 since last I tested it (1-2 months ago) it could almost handle cfunge 15:26:06 AnMaster: yesterday or so, you said clang wasn't ready when I mentioned it 15:26:09 just one thing it failed at 15:26:13 what? 15:26:22 hm? 15:26:28 oh you mean what it failed at? 15:26:34 yes 15:26:38 right. stuff like: 15:26:50 static struct mystruct foo = { .a = blah } 15:26:54 C99 15:27:05 that is, the ".a = " bit is C99 15:27:17 but maybe it can handle that now 15:27:25 I don't know 15:27:38 bbiab 15:27:40 (food) 15:27:41 ah 15:27:44 well that's rather trivial 15:32:53 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:33:09 Hi :-) 15:33:31 hi 15:33:33 hi 15:33:44 ehird, iirc some developer said it wasn't _that_ trivial back then 15:34:12 couldn't you just translate it in the other initialization syntax and use the existing system 15:34:29 oklopol, you would need to fill in values in some places 15:35:16 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:35:22 what is struct mystruct is: { char z[32]; int a; void *b; struct anotherstruct c; union blergh whatever; } 15:35:24 that's a trivial problem 15:35:42 -!- Asztal has quit (brown.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:36:09 oklopol, also using this special syntax is the only way you can initialise anything but the first member of an union like that 15:36:21 sure you could do myunion.foo = 2; or such in code 15:36:29 oklopol, so you can't always translate 15:36:35 especially not for unions 15:37:03 -!- Asztal has joined. 15:37:11 oklopol, so I'd say it is "simple" rather than "trivial" 15:37:17 to add support 15:37:23 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:37:30 oerjan, IWC 15:37:31 err 15:37:33 I mean 15:37:34 hi! 15:37:36 well yes, that may be true. 15:37:41 fnord 15:37:50 oerjan, dronf 15:38:08 that is a float version of the math.h dron() I guess... 15:40:18 determine random obnoxious number 15:41:02 oerjan, yeah 15:41:18 hey, didn't psygnisfive say he goes to stony brook university? 15:41:58 ehird, think it was him yes 15:42:00 not 100% sure 15:42:30 cool, just noticed slava akhmechet (of defmacro.org) does too 15:47:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:48:14 wb me 15:48:14 hi ais523 15:48:19 hi oerjan 15:53:23 My method: Note that 4x^2 + 9y^2 = 36 is actually a circle. Do the obvious. Note that it's an ellipse instead. 15:53:27 erm... 15:53:32 i don't think so 15:53:48 4x^2 + 9y^2 = 36 is an ellipse 15:54:01 it's not a circle 15:54:29 I think kerlo's method is to make an incorrect assumpsion, see where it breaks down, and find out what the correct alternative is instead 15:54:55 although it _would_ still work by rescaling if you can show that the largest rectangle inscribed in an ellipse is necessary parallel to the axes 15:55:10 which it probably is 15:55:58 in fact if this is an ordinary calculus test they're probably assuming that's obvious 15:56:13 ais523: can you provide some rhyme/reason to this WTF: http://pastie.org/404648.txt?key=kjkf82sgtymwyt44eapphq 15:56:17 (or geometry) 15:56:57 ais523, I already did it, by testing on gcc 4.1.2 and not seeing that behaviour that ehird just described. Thus implying a bug. But why I wonder... 15:57:30 I tracked down a bug that I thought was in a package to this... Crazy... I can't believe this is common to all OS X gcc users... 15:58:02 An omg.c was compiled // in two slightly different ways // the result was eerily wild // But just don't ask me what it says 15:58:23 ehird, well most programs don't use cpp directly. They just call cc 15:58:37 only program using cpp directly I can think of atm is ick 15:59:18 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:59:21 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 15:59:24 ehird: rhyme enough for you? 15:59:32 AnMaster: ocaml 15:59:35 using cpp preprocessor 15:59:51 ehird, ok. That makes it two that I can think of 15:59:56 btw why does ocaml do that? 16:00:03 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:00:14 ais523, what did you miss? 16:00:25 the question? and/or my comment to it? 16:00:27 *sigh* no respect for poetry even when they are _asking_ for it :( 16:00:43 oerjan, yeah, horrible isn't it 16:01:00 oerjan, what meter did that poetry use? 16:01:10 if any 16:01:10 AnMaster: both 16:01:10 also, what did oerjan say? 16:01:16 ais523: can you provide some rhyme/reason to this WTF: http://pastie.org/404648.txt?key=kjkf82sgtymwyt44eapphq 16:01:18 actually, I'll logread it, I haven't done that in a while 16:01:19 no idea what it's called 16:01:19 AnMaster: the package used ocaml 16:01:20 ais523, I already did it, by testing on gcc 4.1.2 and not seeing that behaviour that ehird just described. Thus implying a bug. But why I wonder... 16:01:21 err 16:01:23 An omg.c was compiled // in two slightly different ways // the result was eerily wild // But just don't ask me what it says 16:01:24 ocaml lets you specify a preprocessor 16:01:28 AnMaster: I saw that 16:01:32 for... preprocessing 16:01:36 and this package used cpp for tha 16:01:36 t 16:01:40 ais523, you didn't answer ehird's question 16:01:46 as far as we saw 16:01:52 yes I did, presumably the reply was never sent 16:02:00 as far as we saw 16:02:03 yes I did, presumably the reply was never sent 16:02:11 thank you Cpt. Obvious 16:02:13 [16:02] as far as we saw 16:02:13 the . is supposed to be silent, btw 16:02:14 [16:02] yes I did, presumably the reply was never sent 16:02:27 ais523: I didn't see the answer? 16:02:27 ais523, here it was over 6 second difference... 16:03:43 "The main contender, ReiserFS, dropped out of the race because its creator decided to pursue other interests" 16:03:47 AAAAAAAAAAAAAA 16:04:07 never gets old, that 16:04:11 then neither did his wife 16:04:40 oerjan, when is that quote from? 16:04:59 15:10:52 yesterday 16:05:02 AnMaster: http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/relational.html I believe I linked it 16:05:09 (clog time) 16:05:14 hm 16:05:19 and what was ehird quoting? 16:05:22 http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/relational.html 16:05:39 ah 16:06:07 ehird, yeah when != what. So first time you said it, it wasn't a relevant answer ;P 16:06:22 err s/what/where/ 16:06:52 AnMaster: where must you be so picky about interrogative pronouns? 16:07:25 -!- ais523_ has joined. 16:07:42 wb 16:07:45 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:07:48 argh, it still didn't show up 16:08:05 ais523_: any ideas? 16:08:28 ehird: your results don't happen on my machine either, so it's probably a glitch specific to your version of gcc 16:08:32 well, i failed my first exam 16:08:33 SPL #0, <-1 16:08:36 *GASP* 16:08:40 ah, finally 16:08:43 group hug! 16:08:50 I was trying to prevent impomatic's quit message overwriting the lgos 16:08:52 ais523_: but it's -apple-distributed-. surely they would have done some BASIC TESTS?! 16:08:52 *logs 16:09:02 ehird: that's kind-of obscure, rather than a basic test 16:09:05 oerjan: he got 75% 16:09:09 besides, apple-distributed programs have been known to screw up 16:09:09 ais523_: ## is not obscure!! 16:09:16 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:09:17 ## is insanely common... 16:09:19 ehird: I mean, cpp vs. gcc -E 16:09:26 they probably tested with gcc -E not cpp 16:09:27 i don't know what i got, i just reasoned i couldn't get *more than* 75%. 16:09:28 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523. 16:09:32 retardzz 16:09:35 gah 16:09:41 but I can't compile tons of programs like this 16:09:44 Apple famously messed up the packaging of Perl recently 16:09:47 it was on Slashdot 16:09:51 ah yes 16:10:08 oklopol: you are aware this may not be the definition of "fail" most human beings use, right? 16:10:10 * ais523 hopes that imp gate was written correctly 16:10:16 I don't know redcode all that wel... 16:10:20 *well 16:10:34 oerjan: yes, but that's very irrelevant 16:10:47 oerjan, IWC was weird today. Had to read the forum to understand it 16:10:54 you fail when you need to lower your bar 16:11:09 well, my bar's in different places in different subjects 16:11:19 AnMaster: oh i remembered the similar one from when head death _entered_, so i compared them 16:11:22 I consider the bare pass mark of 50% excellent in some of my project management modules 16:11:27 and indeed they seem to fit 16:11:32 heh. 16:11:38 I got 49% on my last piece of coursework on that, it's averaged with another that I've done but hasn't been marked yet 16:12:23 (i sometimes consider a 5/5 a fail if many ppl get it... but i guess i have to admit *that's* pretty stupid) 16:12:39 how can full marks possibly be a fail? 16:12:56 actually, I was really annoyed when I got 99% on one technology exam I did at school 16:13:03 because I could have got 101% if only I hadn't got two questions wrong 16:13:11 give it 110% 16:13:18 and apart from in A-levels where it's trivial, scoring above 100 is quite an achivement 16:13:28 ais523: well you know if many people get the best possible grade, i'm not well above average! 16:15:50 i recently had this exam where 10/20 didn't show up, 5 failed, 3 got a 1/5, one got a four and i got a five 16:15:50 AnMaster: oh i remembered the similar one from when head death _entered_, so i compared them <-- didn't do that until after I checked forum 16:16:03 and i was like WTF HOW CAN THIS GUY GET JUST ONE LESS THAN ME 16:16:17 and then i called a psychiatrist and was put away 16:16:23 oerjan, I still don't see where money got into it 16:16:40 head death 16:16:47 AnMaster: i haven't checked the forum, i have changed to only checking it every few days, it's faster if i do it in more bulk 16:17:09 because I could have got 101% if only I hadn't got two questions wrong <-- wait. How many % is all of it... 16:17:31 AnMaster: it's for "bonus questions" 16:17:33 i.e. 16:17:34 ah 16:17:35 still 16:17:37 AnMaster: 100, but I got a bonus mark on one of the questions 16:17:40 "Blah blah blah. For bonus marks, tell us why green is purple." 16:17:54 ehird, is green purple? 16:17:59 there wasn't an explicit bonus question there, but the teacher was so impressed with my answer to one of the questions that I got a bonus mark anyway 16:17:59 yes. 16:18:00 AnMaster: oh well head death asks what he owes doesn't he 16:18:04 ehird, why? 16:18:13 don't question your elders. 16:18:23 ehird, err. you are younger than me 16:18:31 oerjan, ah hm true 16:18:49 DON'T QUESTION YOUR ELDERS. 16:18:58 ais523, and how did you manage to impress the teacher like that? 16:19:09 I can't remember, it was ages ago 16:19:11 by writing a good answer? 16:19:13 JUST THEORIZIN' 16:19:18 ehird, well duh... 16:19:49 AnMaster: by being smarter than the teacher, i guess 16:20:00 ehird, when I answer like that to a question that _you_ asked then you get irritated. Same when I _ask_ such as question. 16:20:05 ehird, that makes no sense 16:20:06 and also having a teacher who doesn't mind students who are smarter 16:20:13 AnMaster: Don't question your elders. 16:20:38 ehird, you must be based on the gramophone technology. 16:21:16 AnMaster: maybe that webchatter or whatever technology he mentioned yesterday 16:22:13 oerjan, I think I missed that. What was it about? Don't have X running atm. So like ais523 I just ask instead of looking at clog 16:22:29 AnMaster: i do suspect a number of the times ehird complains about you, he just does it for the hell of it 16:22:48 oerjan, ooh. That would make sense in fact. 16:22:50 oerjan: DON'T SUSPECT YOUR ELDERS 16:22:59 ehird, you must be based on the gramophone technology. 16:23:12 ehird: you are not my elder 16:23:19 SHUT UP. 16:23:20 YOUR ELDERS. 16:23:31 WE ARE THE WARRIORS 16:23:32 yes. gramophone 16:23:36 stuck, repeating the same line over and over. 16:23:49 ehird, that's no Elder... 16:25:47 AnMaster: it was some insane thing on reddit, a program that could be used for various support to talk to people on the web with scripting, but used in such a stupid way that it looked like there _was_ no human on the support end 16:26:19 oerjan: actually, the people started acting human after that article, apparently 16:26:24 (complaining about reddit influx) 16:26:43 ehird: reddit, the nuclear cluehammer :D 16:28:50 oerjan, err... 16:28:55 oerjan, link? 16:29:12 * ais523 detonates a well-sharpened pencil at oerjan 16:29:15 * AnMaster is willing to start browser to check this out 16:30:01 ais523: RIP well-sharpened pencils :( 16:30:03 AnMaster: you need java 16:30:16 http://www.webgreeter.com/ 16:30:39 if that turns out to have been an AI all along... 16:30:47 heh 16:30:49 be very afraid 16:31:08 I do have java... Just not in browser 16:31:17 oh dear you mean reddit has trained skynet? 16:31:19 java for linux x86_64 doesn't have a plugin part 16:31:37 that would be nuclear cluehammer in the other direction, i guess 16:31:38 only the standalone java/javac/and/such 16:41:45 See, you have a budding career as an ehird-amuser there. 16:41:59 wait what, i don't like competition 16:42:04 :D 16:42:44 ehird: :D at your :D 16:42:52 you managed to make a meta-joke with one smiley, that's pretty impressive 16:42:57 oerjan, who was that line directed at? 16:43:09 oklopol 16:43:41 oerjan 16:43:48 oklopol 16:43:53 oerjan 16:43:57 oklopol 16:43:59 oerjan 16:44:03 oklopol 16:44:04 oerjan 16:44:06 oklopol 16:44:08 oerjan 16:44:09 ... 16:44:16 wow, it's like a botloop 16:44:22 but with humans 16:44:28 xD 16:44:34 ais523, I thought that too 16:44:38 well some of them are suspected to be human 16:44:39 ^ luckily oerjan got tired 16:44:49 oklopol: no, AnMaster just broke it 16:45:00 hmm 16:45:02 i guess. 16:45:02 which is just as well, before we got banned 16:45:17 yes probably for the best that you lost so abruptly 16:45:21 so who was it really? 16:45:24 now tell the truth 16:45:31 * oerjan swats oklopol -----### 16:45:31 I don't think it was oerjan 16:45:37 the truth is nothing but a lie wrapped in a pretty cake 16:45:40 See, you have a budding career as an ehird-amuser there. 16:45:41 wait what, i don't like competition 16:45:55 if it was oerjan that reply would be very strange 16:46:05 i have told the truth all the time, i have never lied in my life 16:46:19 really? 16:46:24 it's funny because it's a lie! 16:46:26 no, that's a- 16:46:28 :| 16:46:38 surreally, perhaps 16:49:42 no one gets swedish 16:49:52 inte en själ! 16:50:05 I have lied at least once 16:50:11 but I have also told the truth at least once 16:50:16 16:50 ais523: I have lied at least once 16:50:20 that would be the lie, I presume 16:50:31 I'll leave you wondering 16:50:38 i have done at least one of those 16:51:39 oerjan, verkligen? 16:52:03 AnMaster: stop your incomprehensible babbling! 16:52:21 ais523, then you should guard a door. ;P 16:52:37 AnMaster: given what the doors around here are like, I'd better not 16:52:53 ais523, I wasn't making a reference to that 16:52:59 AnMaster: he can be the one who stabs people who ask complicated questions. 16:53:17 oerjan, nah, I think he is too nice for that 16:53:32 maybe, maybe 16:53:33 the trick to solving that particular XKCD problem is to have a question that solves the problem but doesn't sound complicated 16:53:43 or he could have put on that appearance 16:53:47 [17:49:55] inte en själ! 16:53:48 "What would you say if I asked you if this door lead to freedom?" is my attempt 16:53:55 That looks so strange in an english channel :< 16:54:00 ais523: tricky 16:54:02 not complicated 16:54:09 ais523: except the xkcd also mentioned none of the doors actually lead out 16:54:12 is that a tricky question? 16:54:14 ah, and ok 16:54:24 actually, based on the drawing, the doors seem to lead /in/ 16:54:35 also, with three doors, no way you can determine all the information with a yes-or-no question 16:55:43 http://cairnarvon.rotahall.org/pics/lslw.jpg 16:55:52 FireFly, ja det gör det. Men han talar norska 16:56:07 ändå är det begripligt 16:56:26 AnMaster: um gör jag vel inte 16:56:48 oerjan, jo, inte svensk skulle stava det "vel" 16:57:03 Good enough 16:57:06 ok i write swedish as botched by a norwegian 16:57:06 ingen* 16:57:10 oerjan, indeed 16:57:14 Bättre än jag kan norska 16:57:16 Ehm 16:57:18 FireFly, same 16:57:29 Betre en jeg kan norsk 16:57:32 : 16:57:33 < 16:57:39 "Bedre enn" 16:58:41 so, maybe :D 16:58:46 FireFly, och det var bättre än mig 16:59:25 :> 16:59:30 Good enough for me 16:59:54 AnMaster: um wait was this an attempt at norwegian? oerjan, jo, inte svensk skulle stava det "vel" 17:00:08 oerjan, no, it was just a typo 17:00:13 oh ok 17:00:14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCuc34hvD4 17:00:15 for "ingen" 17:00:50 because most of the words are identical 17:01:01 Norwegian is just typoed swedish :> 17:01:01 especially after fixing the typo 17:01:17 Okay, maybe not 17:01:53 FireFly, Depends. Nynorsk is not as close 17:02:25 actually it is not quite correct _choice_ of words 17:02:45 'jo, ingen svenske ville stave det "vel"' 17:03:28 "ville" is more like the english "will"? 17:03:36 Which would be like swedish "skulle" 17:03:40 so ais523 17:03:42 which is also correct nynorsk, which can be even closer by choosing the -a infinitive option 17:03:53 what do you think I should do, replace cpp with a shell script aclling gcc -E? 17:04:05 FireFly: english "would" 17:04:14 Um, yeah 17:04:36 oerjan, then skulle in Swedish 17:04:38 in that case 17:10:03 i wonder why i liek the otbs 17:10:06 *like 17:10:09 it's not exactly logical... 17:10:32 what is the otbs? 17:10:40 one true brace style (k&r) 17:10:56 ah 17:11:10 having { on a separate line just for functions is rather silly 17:11:11 if you'd written 1tbs, I might have been able to expand it, probably not though 17:11:36 at the moment, for Perl I'm using a 1tbs with { on the opening line for absolutely everything 17:11:41 not sure if I like it or not 17:12:12 1tbs? 17:12:27 oh 1 not l 17:12:29 right 17:12:45 (they are different in this font, just not by much) 17:20:26 ais523: do you think CLWNPA is a good name? (Pronounced "interrcall", with a short a). 17:20:52 it should make the welsh scratch their heads, at least 17:25:22 oerjan, heh 17:35:03 C function pointer syntax is crazy IMO 17:35:09 I like it 17:35:19 it follows the general rules for C type syntax very well 17:36:10 ais523, I tend to typedef to not need to think about it 17:36:39 and in typedef it is really strange 17:37:16 typedef void (*fingerprintOpcode)(instructionPointer * ip); 17:37:20 really that is strange 17:37:24 typedef is usually: 17:37:38 typedef long int fancyname 17:37:40 or such 17:37:55 ais523, for function pointers that is no longer true 17:38:07 I mean tyedef 17:38:12 typedef* 17:45:01 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:49:52 Do you consider it acceptible to press F3 if you don't have a suicide spoon handy, or is that cheating? 17:51:31 hmm, you can make any vector image from lines & curves right? 17:51:40 what about fill? 17:52:13 ah, yes 17:52:23 you can make any vector image from lines, curves & fill right? 17:52:42 probably 17:52:49 I suppose it depends on what primitives the image uses 17:52:54 "curves" is pretty general... 17:53:14 true 17:53:26 ais523: I was planning having an image be from (0.0,0.0) to (1.0,1.0) 17:53:41 a curve would be (x1,y1,x2,y1,bend) 17:53:45 where bend is from 0.0 to 1.0 17:53:46 probably 17:53:54 hmm 17:53:57 a line is a curve with bend 0 17:54:49 A cruve is in this case a bezier curve? 17:55:40 [18:52:26] you can make any vector image from lines, curves & fill right? 17:55:43 I guess that'd work 17:55:49 Judging from how SVGs are built 17:56:16 yes, bezier 17:59:26 so, with those, a circle is 17:59:27 ((0.5, 0), (0.5, 1), -0.5); 17:59:28 ((0.5, 0), (0.5, 1), 0.5) 17:59:29 I believe 18:00:13 I don't think it's possible to do a sine wave with only bezier curves 18:00:21 not exactly right, anyway, although you can approximate it as closely as you like 18:00:29 hmm 18:00:30 why not? 18:00:47 because it's a different shape of curve 18:01:38 hmm 18:01:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 18:01:44 maybe I should use a different type of curve 18:01:53 Hm 18:02:18 I've tried to make a circle lots of times with Bezier based curves 18:02:23 And I've had a hard time 18:02:47 well, with mine it would be 18:02:47 or a graph of Ei, for instance, definitely can't be drawn with bezier curves 18:02:48 [((0.5, 0), (0.5, 1), 0.5); 18:02:48 ((0.5, 0), (0.5, 1), -0.5)] 18:02:53 By my experience, IIRC, the "anchor" points which describes the bend are placed at odd laces 18:02:59 places* 18:03:15 you draw the straight line in the middle from top to bottom, then curve it so that the middlepoint is away from the starting point 18:03:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponential_integral 18:03:24 hmm, the curve should be two curves 18:03:30 since it can curve horizontally or vertically 18:03:37 but, with that you can express a circle as above 18:03:57 -!- ais523 has left (?). 18:04:02 -!- ais523 has joined. 18:04:12 how did I do that? 18:04:26 misclick, it seems 18:10:13 -!- olsner has joined. 18:14:31 http://www.scribd.com/doc/12927007/The-Manga-Guide-to-Databases-excerpt 18:14:38 oh dear... it actually exists... 18:15:04 hahaha 18:15:04 did you actually go looking for one of those? 18:15:18 no, it was on reddit and now an excerpt of it is on reddit 18:15:20 if it's not hentai i'm not interested 18:16:10 yes it's database hentai 18:16:39 the tentacles of denormalization 18:20:59 http://www.sfcave.com/ addictive 18:22:44 [18:52:26] you can make any vector image from lines, curves & fill right? <-- what about gradients? 18:23:02 err, I'm talking about the theoretical definition of vector image. 18:24:29 http://www.scribd.com/doc/12927007/The-Manga-Guide-to-Databases-excerpt <-- needs flash, summary? 18:24:44 it's the manga guide to databases. 18:24:54 ehird, yes, but what does that mean in practise? 18:25:08 it's a guide to databases that is a manage 18:25:10 *manga 18:25:19 ah there is a description there too... 18:25:34 thank for your (lack) of helpfulness 18:25:38 thanks* 18:25:57 what the fuck is there not to get? 18:26:04 it's the manga guide to databases 18:26:09 where's the ambiguity? 18:26:45 it could have been a space theme, or fantasy theme, or sex theme 18:26:57 or something else 18:26:58 .... err, what 18:27:21 manga can be about different subjects right? 18:27:25 Like everything can 18:27:40 you can have comics with scifi. 18:27:48 and you can have comics with fantasy 18:27:49 ehird: so how much have you gotten? 18:27:51 and you can have comics with other stuff 18:27:54 oklopol: wut 18:27:59 snake 18:28:06 oh high score on that thing? 18:28:09 yes 18:28:09 10150 i am not very good 18:28:10 you? 18:28:20 17000 or something, just making sure 18:28:39 although i like the graphics, will probably play a bit more 18:28:55 even though i don't really find that a very stimulating concept 18:29:19 Nibbles is my favourite version of Snake 18:29:29 I liked it so much I even wrote patches against it and submitted them to Gnome 18:30:23 my phone as a 3D TPS (Third Person Snake) 18:30:29 it's horrible 18:30:43 third person snake, you mean, snake 18:30:45 3D snake? 18:30:46 ? 18:30:49 oh 18:30:50 right 18:30:57 I've played 3d snake, called Swear 18:30:58 t'was fun 18:31:07 not the same one I think then 18:31:07 on a klein bottle 18:31:07 no less 18:31:18 I've played some odd 3D snake on a Nokia cellphone 18:31:19 this one is rather boring. 18:31:22 Didn't like it 18:31:25 Hm 18:31:27 FireFly, Nokia here too 18:31:29 On MY cellphone, IIRC 18:31:34 this one is called "Snake III" 18:31:36 * FireFly doesn't use his cellphone a lot 18:31:39 Yeah, the same one 18:31:42 1D snake could be more interesting 18:31:58 Althrough on my dads cellphone, theres some wireframe snake, looks more interesting 18:32:00 ais523, how would it work 18:32:01 rather boring, I think, ais523 18:32:04 And it's also a Nokia 18:32:09 FireFly, older model? 18:32:16 Yep, I think 18:32:24 But it looks about as good, technically wise 18:32:27 AnMaster: I'm thinking the snake would move n squares at a time, rather than just 1 18:32:33 and you would vary n 18:32:37 Eg. equally advanced graphics 18:32:42 ais523: ah, clever 18:32:48 so there's obstacles 18:32:53 and you have to increase your "hop speed"? 18:32:53 FireFly, mine is a "Nokia 3something Classic" 18:32:54 Hm, that's interesting 18:32:55 to get past them 18:33:04 ais523: that would be best as a side-scroller type thing 18:33:06 for visualization 18:33:12 PUDDING!!!!! 18:33:14 with a snake hopping 18:33:15 ehird: probably 18:33:23 Side scroller snake 18:33:25 Ugh 18:33:25 18:33 ais523: PUDDING!!!!! 18:33:28 I LOVE PUDDING TOO. 18:33:33 ehird: it's a TURKEY BOMB command 18:33:42 i know 18:33:44 but what's the relevance 18:33:49 FireFly, I forgot the exact model 18:33:52 FireFly, :D 18:33:53 does it have to be relevant? 18:33:55 Mines.. 7500 18:33:57 Prism 18:34:00 I was randomly reading the TURKEY BOMB specs 18:34:01 Easy number to remember 18:34:06 and felt an urge to paste one of the commands 18:34:41 FireFly, mine is like 3120 or something like that 18:34:44 * ais523 suddenly notes that no commands use AMICEDs, apart from the ones that take any time 18:34:50 and it doesn't have the model number on it even 18:35:03 FireFly, there is also a rally game on the phone. 3D 18:35:09 very bad graphics 18:35:14 Hm, that one 18:35:20 I think I've played it 18:35:20 FireFly, what one? 18:35:22 oh right 18:35:23 ehird: about your cpp problem, what happens if you give the -### switch to the two commands/ 18:35:28 You auto-move forward, can only steer 18:35:29 Right? 18:35:38 Some beach race thing 18:35:41 FireFly, you can turn off that auto move forward though 18:35:44 and not beech 18:35:50 mountain and such 18:35:51 Hm, guess it's a different one then 18:36:04 FireFly, not using auto forward is very hard 18:36:21 but why in a phone 18:36:33 ais523: cpp gives -traditional-cpp but surely traditional cpp had ## 18:36:39 Althrough I also have this Tower Bloxx game, it's quite alright 18:36:39 I use it for calls and SMS 18:36:45 ehird: no, it didn't 18:36:45 FireFly, don't have that one 18:36:48 I don't use mine 18:36:50 ais523: O_O 18:36:51 :D 18:37:03 ## was invented for C89 to avoid the horrible hacks that people were using instead 18:37:05 as was # 18:37:11 FireFly, have some backgammon game too. No idea how to play it 18:37:24 backgammon that is 18:37:30 traditional cpp #define A(x) "testx" translates to modern CPP #define A(x) "test" #x 18:37:32 Hm, I think I've played a Nokia backgammon game, yeah 18:37:52 ais523, wow crazy 18:37:54 * ais523 looks at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Esme for old time's sake 18:38:04 ais523, also cpp doesn't run into that bug ehird hit here 18:38:09 and suddenly realises that the discussion there is between Dagoth and zzo38 18:38:11 AnMaster: nor here 18:38:18 "Esme: It works by tapping out "ESME" into Morse code, then writing "Esme" in to the papers." 18:38:29 ais523, also -### ? 18:38:38 AnMaster: a lovely name for a gcc switch 18:38:42 it's basically like: 18:38:43 you should try it some time 18:38:44 http://fortwayneright.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/dewey_wins.jpg 18:38:49 except instead of DEWEY DEFEATS TRUMAN 18:38:50 it says 18:38:52 ESME ESME ESME 18:38:54 I don't know why they chose that one, presumably they just wanted it to be memorable 18:38:54 ais523, I can't find it in man page 18:39:02 AnMaster: gcc's man page isn't well-documented 18:39:09 the gcc people prefer info 18:39:17 it's a debugging switch that charts what the subprocesses do 18:39:41 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit"). 18:41:08 -!- calamari has joined. 18:49:55 hahaha: http://www.planetsourcecode.com/vb/scripts/ShowCode.asp?txtCodeId=11751&lngWId=3 18:50:01 err qut 18:50:03 qut 18:50:04 yeah, saw that 18:50:04 *wut 18:50:05 "Note: Due to the size or complexity of this submission, the author has submitted it as a .zip file to shorten your download time. Afterdownloading it, you will need a program like Winzip to decompress it." 18:50:12 ais523: that's by the actual author of deadfish 18:50:17 bit of a newb. 18:50:22 ehird: what am i misunderstanding, i got a 27000 and i'm not on the list 18:50:26 I've suddenly had an impulse to want to write a deadfish polyglot 18:50:29 oklopol: did you enter a nam 18:50:29 e 18:50:41 as in, a program that's a deadfish interpreter in lots of different languages 18:50:44 wait i am 18:50:47 lol 18:50:47 nm 19:00:15 now presumably ehird will try 19:00:23 ? 19:00:31 to write a polyglot deadfish interp 19:00:44 probably not, I suck at polyglots 19:02:27 ais523, specs for this deadfish? 19:02:34 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish 19:02:38 it's a very trivial non-TC language 19:03:55 yeah indeed 19:04:16 mostly famous because it has a huge number of implementations 19:07:25 ais523, so does bf 19:07:33 and befunge-93 19:07:43 yes 19:07:47 wow at that C one on the wiki 19:07:50 but those are famous on other grounds 19:07:53 /* <-- Declare a function --> */ 19:07:54 w 19:07:54 t 19:07:55 h 19:08:10 embedded SGML comments.. 19:08:15 wait no 19:08:16 not even valid sgml. 19:08:18 a ! and it would be 19:08:21 the author is a silly newb. 19:08:23 ehird, yeah see how it fails 19:08:23 it's mostly for the novelty. 19:09:24 ehird, what? nah. That would be /* <<<><<<<---!()\/& Declare a function &\/()!--->>>><>>> */ 19:09:28 that is novelty! 19:10:52 ehird, also an example of a "don't do this" comment 19:11:04 * AnMaster looks for the i++; /* Increment i */ 19:12:01 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 19:12:33 /* Make sure x is not greater then 256 */ 19:12:33 if(x == 256) x = 0; 19:12:40 ... 19:12:46 yes, we are aware of the 'bug' 19:12:59 other implementations do the same thing for compatibility 19:13:06 ais523, not only that. He should have used "unsigned char" and 255 19:13:18 as in that is the same 19:13:39 ais523, should I write a short C version that does the same but is sane and put it up there after his C version? 19:13:39 what's wrong with that? 19:13:48 oklopol, read that comment 19:13:52 /* Make sure x is not greater then 256 */ 19:13:52 if(x == 256) x = 0; 19:13:52 oh comment. 19:14:01 AnMaster: the behaviour on 256 is considered an important part of Deadfish 19:14:04 yeah i don't read comments 19:14:08 in other words, the implementation is correct but the comment is wrong 19:14:14 ais523, yes indeed 19:14:46 ais523, should I put up something following the same implementation in C but that is sane 19:14:48 yes or no? 19:14:57 maybe I'll do an erlang version 19:14:59 as well 19:15:14 probably better to just add new languages 19:16:31 k 19:17:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:19:15 hm 19:23:03 Agh, I ran into GreyKnight -again- 19:24:27 ehird, what? 19:24:31 context? 19:24:47 guy who was in here circa 2006, ran into him via the logs first, then saw he played Agora in 2006 when browsing archives, and now I see him on wikipedia 19:26:23 hm ok 19:26:35 how does Deadfish behave on EOF? 19:26:57 what 19:27:27 simple question 19:27:37 there is >> for the user 19:27:43 what if user hits ctrl-d? 19:29:04 it exits... 19:30:54 ehird, ? 19:31:00 it exits... 19:31:11 ehird, it doesn't quit or react? 19:31:20 do you know what exit means. 19:31:24 no 19:31:26 it doesn't 19:31:29 as far as I can tell 19:31:38 "It only exits, not quits!!" 19:31:56 ehird, looking at the bash implementation for example 19:32:00 the bash one just echos 19:32:12 okokokokokokokokokokokoko 19:35:48 another bug 19:35:57 you could go to 254, then square it 19:36:43 that's the intention. 19:37:32 that bash implementation doesn't allow it heh 19:38:23 "# ARM Texas Instruments OMAP3 chip" —http://www.alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/ 19:42:22 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:44:55 ehird, doesn't mean anything to me 19:55:05 done. 19:55:08 deadfish.erl 19:55:22 MIT or BSD? 19:55:35 ehird, which would you suggest? 19:55:45 I think I will go for MIT license 19:55:46 MIT 19:55:49 or if BSD, BSD2 19:55:58 the "don't use our name" thing is redundant and outmoded 19:55:59 ehird, not BSD-4? aww 19:56:02 AnMaster: BSD-5 19:56:07 what? 19:56:10 that exists? 19:56:11 add a clause requiring modifiers to give all their babies to you, so you can eat them 19:56:15 to further your evil plot to destroy the world 19:56:18 hah 19:56:20 -> Sure it's open source, but your code is safe! 19:56:31 ehird, what about one that says: Plus everything in GPL2? 19:56:40 hm? 19:56:46 oh 19:56:47 heh 19:56:52 or GPL3 19:56:59 AnMaster: add a clause saying that only people called george can modify the softwar 19:57:00 e 19:57:08 why george? 19:57:13 why not 19:57:18 also don't question your elders 19:57:27 well you aren't my elder 19:57:35 shut up. your elders. 19:57:47 ehird, anyway what license is allowed on the wiki? 19:58:06 Public domain. Nothing else. 19:58:10 well 19:58:17 I'll guess I'll have to go for that then 19:58:19 Specifically, the creative commons public domain dedication 19:58:29 AnMaster: just don't put a header in 19:58:30 like the others 19:58:33 hm 19:58:45 e.g., authorship tag would be silly if others modified it 19:59:54 %% @author and %% @copyright are done in all erlang code really 20:00:00 %% @doc too 20:00:53 who cares 20:00:55 just omit them 20:02:58 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving."). 20:03:17 argh 20:03:42 what 20:03:44 Login error: 20:03:44 Error sending mail: There is no e-mail address recorded for user "AnMaster". 20:03:49 I don't remember password 20:03:53 ? 20:03:56 oh. 20:04:02 ehird, and there is no email 20:04:03 so 20:04:09 AnMaster: just edit anonymously, will it kill you? 20:04:30 or was that disabled, I forget 20:04:48 hm 20:04:50 not sure 20:04:54 anyway who is an admin 20:05:00 just edit anonymously 20:05:08 and ais523, ihope (iirc), oerjan, everyone 20:05:15 yes, anonymous editing works 20:05:17 I just checked 20:05:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:05:51 ehird, http://paste.lisp.org/display/76426 20:06:11 ehird, did you say everyone? 20:06:12 who? 20:06:15 okay, apparently your brain can't parse me, 20:06:19 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&action=edit 20:06:20 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&action=edit 20:06:23 http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Deadfish&action=edit 20:06:23 ehird, I refuse 20:06:24 to edit 20:06:25 third time lucky 20:06:26 anon 20:06:43 my ip! 20:06:43 AnMaster: ok, then your interp will never be used and nobody will see it apart from a few 20:06:46 have fun with that 20:06:58 ehird, no, I'll just poke ais when I see him next time 20:07:11 I'm sure he'll enjoy being bothered for something so trivial 20:07:28 ehird, I'm sure he won't mind 20:07:48 AnMaster: and do you intend to put it on the wiki with that license? 20:08:03 ehird, nop 20:08:12 I plan to make it public domain if I put it on wiki 20:08:13 so why did you paste it with thatlicense 20:08:21 also, yours doesn't meet the spec. 20:08:22 ehird, because that isn't the wiki 20:08:25 you can do multiple commands per line. 20:08:33 ehird, I checked several other ones 20:08:40 several didn't support it 20:09:09 but trivial to fix 20:10:16 "You can have several commands per line, at least in the C implementation." 20:10:20 If you read it... 20:11:48 at least in 20:11:48 yes 20:11:56 check the implementations there though 20:12:22 ehird, wait, will it print two newlines after each line then? 20:12:56 or does it strip a trailing \n? 20:15:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:18:36 ais523, hi 20:18:40 rehi 20:18:42 ais523, I lost my login to the wiki 20:18:46 and have no email set 20:18:52 as a wiki admin can you help? 20:18:55 ugh, nothing I can do about that despite being an admin 20:19:01 ais523, who can then 20:19:03 best to create another account 20:19:09 graue probably could modify the database directly 20:19:11 ais523, guess I'll just stop editing 20:19:14 but with no email set, there's no "official" way to do it 20:19:23 you can just create another account and mention you lost your password, nobody will mind 20:19:26 and not put up my erlang deadfish 20:19:30 that's common even on Wikipedia, and some people have done it before 20:19:32 ais523, I will 20:19:35 or you can just post as an anon if you prefer 20:19:37 I will mind 20:19:45 ais523, my ip! 20:19:46 :P 20:19:55 nah I guess I'll just skip it 20:20:03 ais523, btw 20:20:12 ais523, does deadfish strip trailing newline? 20:20:17 on input 20:20:22 it's interactive 20:20:27 ais523, yes 20:20:33 exactly 20:20:36 and I think it strips newlines if and only if there's something else on the line 20:20:47 ais523, right. That is painful 20:25:28 -!- jix has joined. 20:25:58 ais523, does it matter of the interpreter is bignum? 20:26:12 I mean, I do handle -1 and 256 as original code 20:26:19 but with s you can get outside that 20:26:30 AnMaster: getting outside it is part of the fun 20:26:45 in fact, the discussions here we had about making Deadfish TC relied on bignums 20:27:52 ais523, http://paste.lisp.org/display/76430 20:28:10 ais523, you need *two* bignums to do that 20:28:15 no you don't 20:28:18 well, maybe not 20:28:18 really? 20:28:22 what about control flow 20:28:23 having a square instruction makes things more complicated 20:28:28 control flow I'm not sure about 20:28:59 ais523, you need some sort of control flow. All you have now is a fixed program. Even with bignums you couldn't implement bf in it 20:29:05 that is bf without IO 20:29:38 ais523, anyway what do you think of my erlang implementation? 20:29:47 simple enough 20:29:55 but with that licence, it wouldn't be acceptable on Esolang anyway 20:30:17 ais523, I would relicense it as public domain if I got my account back 20:30:24 simple enough 20:30:50 ais523, graue would probably not believe me if I asked him, so better you ask him (since he would trust you more) 20:30:54 (and you know who I am) 20:31:23 ais523, :) 20:37:06 oerjan: what I mean is to pretend it's a circle. 20:37:14 He's not here, but I'm sure that message will find him eventually. 20:39:25 kerlo, it isn't 20:39:50 the circle is a lie! 20:40:33 Intelligence is about ignoring what isn't important. 20:40:51 For much of the problem, it's not important that it's actually an ellipse. 20:41:08 true 20:43:28 then what is important? 20:43:38 Area and betweenness. 20:43:56 Area-preserving affine transformations preserve both of these. 20:44:01 what's betweenness? 20:44:15 Whether or not one point is between two others. 20:45:03 err so that every line cuts it zero or 2 times? 20:45:09 except for tangents 20:45:13 so 0-2 20:45:16 or what do you mean 20:45:32 AnMaster: graue will, most likely, tell you that if you give a shit about your ip being exposed jsut create another account 20:45:42 at least, that's what any sane person would. 20:45:49 http://paste.lisp.org/display/76432 20:45:57 fixed some comment typos 20:46:01 I'm saying that an area-preserving affine transformation is useful in this case, I guess. 20:46:08 and now it works according to reference implementation 20:46:15 "reset my password", sure. "reset my password because i refuse to edit anonymously and otherwise i will STOP EDITING FOREVER", oh go away. 20:46:43 ehird, I will only ask the first obviously 20:46:55 If you want to maximize the area of a rectangle inscribed in an ellipse, then whatever transformation you apply needs to preserve area and rectangleness. 20:47:04 AnMaster: so why are you asking the other here 20:47:19 ehird, because graue isn't here? So it doesn't matter. 20:47:23 and stop bitching 20:47:26 it's the kind of thing you'd call me childish for, actually (refusing to edit just because of username not being AnMaster or ip being exposed) 20:49:18 o 20:49:21 oko 20:49:36 ol fokol ofol ooo..... 20:49:45 z 20:49:49 oko polofol o kolooo 20:50:02 kol kol kolk olk oo :) 20:50:12 i need a translator 20:50:23 oklopol: translate oko to english and post it to agora 20:51:14 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:51:40 someone should make a TC language based on "oko" 20:51:53 and not just a bf in a thin wrapper 20:52:20 only oklopol could, and he won't because that's sacrelige 20:52:22 a bf lookalike* 20:52:38 okokokokoko 20:52:43 ehird, then his followers should do it 20:52:48 i was thinking about one at some point 20:52:54 oklopol, really? 20:52:57 AnMaster: no, it would be inferior 20:53:05 nothing can truly capture oko apart from itself. 20:53:15 interesting 20:53:18 go ahead... 20:53:31 * AnMaster backs away slowly 20:53:35 AnMaster: yes, but it was more weird than it was interesting; it was more like an elaborate prng than a programming language 20:53:56 AnMaster: you see, an alien called Xenu... 20:54:10 oklopol, heh 20:54:16 ehird, argh! 20:54:43 ...made a Time Cube, which encompasses all 4 corners of spacetime, and... 20:54:59 ... 20:55:01 oh my 20:55:50 ...dropped it as a bomb on to Earth, and the Mayans were left with traces of the magic, predicting that in 2012... 20:56:09 ...we would run out of ipv4? 20:56:28 ... kind of. 20:56:37 ehird, what had you planned to say? 20:56:54 I was trying to tie it to Christianity. 20:56:56 Or buddhism 20:56:59 I see 20:57:00 Or mormonism 20:57:01 ...therefore, God exists and the theory of evolution is false. 20:57:07 kerlo: Exactly. 20:57:11 hah 20:58:37 Christians don't write genetic algorithms; they intelligently design them. 20:59:16 intelligent design algorithm? 20:59:32 sounds awesome 20:59:33 or not 20:59:36 dunno 20:59:47 ehird, actually genetic ones tend to not evolve the actual algorithm, just the parameters 20:59:56 or fudge factors 21:00:09 AnMaster: elders _|_ 21:00:16 ehird, ? 21:00:46 hahaha fudge factory you mean the ass? :D 21:01:33 I didn't 21:01:38 maybe ehird did 21:04:52 "Scheme seemed closer to the (register) machine than C, and it seemed like a nice alternative to assembly language." 21:05:34 ehird, source 21:05:42 anonymous. 21:05:49 ehird, well where did you get it... 21:05:55 the internet. 21:05:59 ehird, link? 21:06:06 http://internet.com/ 21:06:10 ... 21:06:25 ehird, that exists 21:11:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:12:48 ais523: has the underhanded c contest disappeared? 21:13:00 ehird: no 21:13:04 http://underhanded.xcott.com/ 21:13:06 sure? 21:13:09 there was a slashdot article about the IOCCC disappearing 21:13:15 Xcott himself showed up on the comments 21:13:23 but the site is gone. 21:13:31 what, really? 21:13:37 http://underhanded.xcott.com/ 21:13:40 i did just link you. 21:13:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 21:13:56 it doesn't look gone to me, just broken 21:14:29 yeah 21:14:36 broken = gone 21:14:43 the5k.org has been broken for years; it's gone 21:14:47 email him 21:14:59 or her 21:15:02 yeah with my psychic email guessing powers. 21:15:10 ehird, don't know his email? 21:15:10 also, I imagine he knows. 21:19:20 I hate hate hate how ioccc's .c links don't open in the browser. 21:19:31 your browser is misconfigured, then 21:19:45 unless it's sending as application/octet-stream for some reason 21:19:50 * ais523 glares at paste.eso-std.org 21:19:57 I beg to differ: Content-Type: text/x-csrc 21:19:58 ais523, indeed 21:20:02 that's not even a valid content type 21:20:05 wtf? 21:20:07 also, you liked it well enough before AnMaster complained about it 21:20:09 ok, why is it using that type? 21:20:12 and yes, I liked it 21:20:18 I was trying to point out you were being inconsistent 21:20:19 ais523: ioccc.org's server is misconfigured, then. 21:20:23 yes, agreed 21:20:24 ais523, indeed 21:20:28 possibly both, actually 21:22:28 what I wouldn't give for mkcd() { mkdir $1; cd $1 } 21:22:31 oh wait, I just did it. 21:22:49 I hardly ever mkdir 21:22:54 so mkcd isn't all that useful 21:24:12 so, the vast majority of ioccc programs can't be compiled by default. :D 21:25:05 they're shipped with makefiles 21:25:12 and yes, you do need to use the makefile normally 21:25:17 or at least copy the options by hand 21:25:19 yes, but they fail with the makefile 21:25:19 -D options are very common 21:25:25 I used the toplevel recursive make 21:25:29 and most of them failed badly 21:25:39 what sort of error messages? 21:25:45 syntax errors, etc 21:25:55 ehird, a lot of them are due to traditional C 21:25:59 pre-ANSI 21:25:59 yes 21:26:15 ehird, -traditional-cpp to GCC may help 21:26:27 the catchall -traditional will probably work better 21:26:35 to handle pre-ANSIisms in the source code itself 21:26:39 wow, 2004/arachnid is awesome 21:26:40 ais523, both do the same according to man gcc here 21:26:44 many of the older programs have ansified versions 21:26:48 -traditional 21:26:48 -traditional-cpp 21:26:48 Formerly, these options caused GCC to attempt to emulate a pre-standard C compiler. They are now only supported with the -E 21:26:48 switch. The preprocessor continues to support a pre-standard mode. See the GNU CPP manual for details. 21:26:54 ah 21:27:06 ais523, gcc 4.1.2 21:27:40 " see http://bellard.org/ for QEMU (Fabrice Bellard is an IOCCC 2001 winner), " 21:27:41 Heh. 21:28:22 ehird, there is one IOCCC entry that includes a configure 21:28:23 ... 21:28:31 iirc "worst abuse of rules" 21:28:33 for that year 21:29:04 2004 21:31:27 ehird, check that one out 21:31:31 hibachi 21:31:32 i did 21:37:06 " * I achieved some additional tightness by '-Dif=while', saved 9 chars " 21:37:06 .. 21:38:31 wh:D 21:38:33 ehird, :D 21:40:42 * ehird writes OCR program. 21:40:55 it will recognize A, C, D and E. 21:41:41 ehird, why those only? 21:41:56 They're the only ones I've calculated OCR-optimization-count vectors for. 21:42:06 -!- jix_ has joined. 21:42:31 ehird, err, how do you mean? 21:42:45 Don't question your elders. 21:42:57 you are not my elder 21:44:09 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:48:52 http://pastie.org/private/qb2tg9bvpnsv2rw2q0ljgg This may or may not work, YMMV. 21:51:53 mhm 21:52:38 If anyone wants to give it a bigger alphabet/write a main()/test it, feel free :P 21:53:29 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:53:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:57:03 AnMaster: I nominate you :P 21:57:47 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 21:57:54 ehird, thanks but no 21:58:15 ehird, I'm going to sleep shortly, and your program will just be forgotten 21:58:23 Oh irony. 21:58:30 Actually, i'm testing it now. 21:58:32 So not quite. 21:58:35 ok 21:59:21 ehird, I expect unit tests with 100% coverage too! ;P 21:59:30 To hell with unit tests. 21:59:31 ehird, one bug however: 21:59:33 char *s = "ACDE"; 21:59:35 should be 21:59:39 const char *s = "ACDE"; 21:59:42 or 21:59:46 char s[] = "ACDE"; 21:59:49 AnMaster: I'd run now, before I kill you. 21:59:57 ehird, what? 22:00:17 I don't consider that a bug; you've said it before and I've replied that before, so you do know. 22:04:12 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:04:19 ehird, it is against the C standard. 22:04:45 That code is invalid C89? I don't believe you. 22:05:32 ehird, I don't have the C89 spec. I know it breaks C99 technically 22:06:04 If any implementation supported C99 I'd agree. 22:18:36 ehird, you are not allowed to modify that char* = "ABCE" even in C89 22:18:37 as in 22:18:46 s[2] = 'G' 22:18:55 AnMaster: I don't modify it. 22:19:08 But you can't modify a string literal, umm, no shit, I do know c 22:20:16 Which part of C99 it breaks, though? 22:25:28 fizzie, I don't remember section number 22:25:38 Yes, but what's it about? 22:25:38 but I do remember reading it 22:25:54 fizzie, the type of a string literal is const char*, not char* 22:26:02 Well, that's just not true. 22:26:38 truth must not get in the way of zealotry! 22:26:46 fizzie, oh? 22:26:50 I'm quite sure 22:26:52 well actually 22:26:56 const char[length] 22:27:10 6.4.5 String literals: "-- character sequence is then used to initialize an array of static storage duration and length just sufficient to contain the sequence. For character string literals, the array elements have type char, and are initialized with --" 22:27:11 and a pointer to one would be const char* 22:27:14 There is no "const" there. 22:27:49 fizzie, I'm quite sure I read it though 22:27:54 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:28:04 I don't have time to find it now, since I'm going to bed. But I'll look tomorrow 22:28:22 There is even an example about this. 22:29:06 EXAMPLE 5: The following three expressions have different meanings: "foo", (char []){"foo"}, (const char []){"foo"} [I abbreviated the example string a bit here] 22:29:41 "The first always has static storage duration and has type array of char, but need not be modifiable; the last two have automatic storage duration when they occur within the body of a function, and the first of these two is modifiable." 22:30:03 I think that quite clearly is saying that a plain "foo" is of type array of char. 22:30:05 Even if a string literal were a const char *, that wouldn't mean that you couldn't initialize a non-const char * to point to one. 22:30:55 true, you can cast away const 22:31:09 AnMaster: ... so why did you say my code was invalid? 22:31:10 i see. 22:31:23 ehird, It looks I misremembered 22:31:32 unlike you I can admit that. 22:32:02 you do realise that I haven't actually denied misremembering once? 22:32:24 ehird, no, but not admitting you were wrong 22:32:38 which is same category 22:32:48 still I'd say it is good practise to use const, to reduce possible bugs. 22:32:56 right, right, I forgot reality wasn't actually relevant when saying such things 22:32:57 for non-trivial programs it helps. 22:33:06 night 22:33:14 All this proves is that the people writing C standards are a bunch of sissies, for not having the balls to change the type of string literals. 22:36:15 -!- jix_ has quit ("..."). 22:37:15 Say what you want about C++, at least it has const char string literals. 22:48:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:56:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:00:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:17:31 -!- FireFly has quit ("night"). 23:22:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:22:50 baguette 23:24:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:24:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:27:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).