00:00:31 <ehird> fizzie: is primes.f meant to take 5 years?
00:07:37 <ehird> Then I have an infinite loop.
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00:59:00 <GregorR> AnMaster, ehird: GregorR rule?
01:08:48 <comex> my homebrew python decompiler is quickly getting too complicated to maintain :(
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01:24:13 <comex> I was killed by a typo
01:24:40 <comex> well, it decompiles this
01:24:42 <comex> http://pastie.org/410598
02:40:10 <comex> here, let me get the same buffer
02:40:17 <comex> but that's not a fair comparison either
02:40:31 <comex> c+p my code and run it on the same machine if you want
02:43:40 <comex> it's also in-place, nice
02:49:57 <comex> ok, on my desktop here are the results:
02:49:59 <comex> ]% gcc -O3 -mtune=native -funroll-loops -o morse morse.c && ./morse
02:50:09 <comex> former is yours, latter is mine
02:50:36 <comex> with this http://pastie.org/410644
02:51:06 <comex> I switched to 80M :p
02:52:26 <comex> your code ends up shorter in assembly, interesting
02:53:44 <comex> if I change -O3 to -Os, yours is faster
02:54:07 <comex> mainly because the division isn't optimized into multiplication
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05:05:20 <bsmntbombdood> well i got rid of the branch in the inner loop using a couple lookup tables, but it made it slightly slower
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07:14:59 <kerlo> So, I finally have a MIDI file of that little tune up.
07:15:07 <kerlo> http://normish.org/ihope/kerlo.mid
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07:19:09 <Sgeo> I don't get it
07:20:10 <asiekierk> what are you discus--- oh wait i'll check the logs
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07:21:32 <Sgeo> kerlo, cool, but a bit short and repetitive
07:22:15 * asiekierk is currerntly listening to: Au Clair de la Lune (1860 recording)
07:22:40 * Sgeo wishes Yahoo! Music Jukebox wasn't the only thing on here capable of playing MIDIs
07:22:55 <zzo38> The idea of akiross, it seems some versions of INTERCAL allow you to change syntax during runtime so that's one possible way....
07:23:16 <asiekierk> You can just include a compiler in the app and recompile the app in memory
07:24:59 <zzo38> Also, another thing to add to something like INTERCAL with interleave operator, but allows any length of bits (even infinite), you could do things like zero interleave negative one makes one third, etc.
07:25:30 <kerlo> Sgeo: that's why it's called a little tune. :-)
07:25:40 <zzo38> And which INTERCAL is the shortest Hello world output program, maybe CLCLC-INTERCAL. It is: PLEASE ;1 <- #2
07:25:49 <zzo38> DO ;1 SUB #1 <- #17947$#20775
07:26:02 <zzo38> DO ;1 SUB #2 <- #5204$#21386 DO READ OUT ;1
07:26:32 <kerlo> Darn, it's not calculator writing, is it.
07:26:33 <asiekierk> I should make something like a movie script esolang
07:26:39 <kerlo> The 077 confused me for a moment.
07:26:51 <asiekierk> Something like Shakespeare but "more than 100 people can read it"
07:27:01 <kerlo> Epic poem esolang.
07:27:32 <zzo38> No, not calculator writing. It is Baudot, encoding 6 Baudot characters in each cell of the array
07:28:00 <zzo38> Another esolang idea is one with mahjong tiles?
07:28:54 <asiekierk> the Epic Movie Esolang (E! ME) wouldn't work
07:29:17 <kerlo> "Three times, Thylakos, Eater of All, attempted to increment status_code; the first two times, he was not successful, but on the third, Apollo descended from the clouds, and told him, 'Hark, Thylakos! That variable is not for you to increment, for it is a private variable of the class NetworkConnection!'"
07:29:39 <asiekierk> but a foreign can't really write it
07:30:05 <zzo38> Do you have another idea of CLCLC-INTERCAL
07:32:27 <Sgeo> Good night all
07:32:31 <zzo38> In your opinion, does 1 + 2 pow 2 + 2 pow 4 + 2 pow 6 + 2 pow 8 and so on make -1/3 in my opinion it does because in binary it is .......010101010101. and if you multiply it by three you get negative one, so therefore it is correct. Or you think the result is infinite? I would like to know your opinion
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07:34:55 <zzo38> Do you like to use FOWER instead of FOUR, or FIFE instead of FIVE
07:35:48 <kerlo> What is the first vowel in "FIFE"?
07:36:17 <kerlo> Also, I think it does make -1/3, but only 2-adically.
07:36:26 <zzo38> It is "I" isn't it? Or is there a vowel missing
07:36:44 <kerlo> But what sound is it?
07:38:13 <zzo38> What does 2-adically means exactly I never learned 2-adically math. But I did see it mentioned in the book ROAD TO REALITY and all it says is the numbers are allowed to be infinite on the left instead of on the right. The rest I just did myself and don't know about proper 2-adically and whether mine is proper
07:39:15 <zzo38> And I think the sound is "I" sound like FIVE but possibly slightly different because of the following consonant but that is what I heard anyways is the standard for air traffic control, although nobody uses it and nobody cares
07:45:09 <zzo38> O, and do esolang people have any preferences having to do with mahjong game
07:51:15 <zzo38> Yes I am replying to you asiekierk!i=africalo@078088180066.elb.vectranet.pl
07:51:33 <asiekierk> How's your console specification going on? I think you made one...
07:52:12 <asiekierk> also, you should reply like this to a private message: /msg asiekierk Yes
07:52:43 <zzo38> Yes I did but I am writing software and specifications more a bit, and then one day I need to get a computer hardware and stuff, and then I can write the software more, testing it, make a company, and a few more things, make manual, etc, and then it will be complete.
07:53:25 <zzo38> O sorry I missed that the message was private but now I notice it.
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09:58:29 <psygnisfive> so this guy paul pietroski from university of maryland
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09:58:53 <psygnisfive> is working on a very interesting version of semantic logic that looks more like a sort of combinatory calculus
09:59:57 <psygnisfive> in which there are strictly monadic predicates and highly restricted dyadic predicates
11:25:22 <AnMaster> <GregorR> AnMaster, ehird: GregorR rule? <-- in ABCDEF
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12:51:24 <AnMaster> FILE's 1R at end of file should reflect IMO
12:52:47 <AnMaster> R (h n -- h) Read n bytes from file to buffer
12:52:57 <AnMaster> "All file functions on failure act as r."
12:53:49 <AnMaster> a bug (IMO) in cfunge made it pass
12:54:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mycology expects 1R at end of file to not reflect
12:54:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but shouldn't it reflect if it read 0 bytes
12:54:50 <AnMaster> IMO the logic should be like this:
12:55:18 <AnMaster> bytes_actually_read = fread(buffer, bytes_program_want, filepointer)
12:55:28 <AnMaster> if (bytes_program_want != bytes_actually_read) {
12:56:35 <AnMaster> that is, it shouldn't reflect if it managed to read *some* bytes
12:56:47 <Deewiant> What CCBI does now is essentially
12:57:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this is the logic I *want* http://dpaste.com/9631/
12:58:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you forgot to clear the feof?
12:58:39 <AnMaster> The function feof() tests the end-of-file indicator for the stream pointed to by stream, returning non-zero if it is set. The end-of-file
12:58:39 <AnMaster> indicator can only be cleared by the function clearerr().
12:58:58 <Deewiant> Would I want to clear feof for some reason?
12:59:27 <Deewiant> Clearing ferror makes sense since it could be that it'll work later
12:59:35 <Deewiant> But if you hit EOF, why clear it, EOF is EOF
12:59:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you seek back you need to clear it
13:00:12 <AnMaster> I mean, it will be there even if you seek or write
13:00:39 <AnMaster> I may be wrong, but it seems like that to me
13:01:05 <Deewiant> That seems really stupid to me
13:01:09 <Deewiant> Why should seek fail if it's at the EOF :-P
13:01:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, what do you think about the logic I suggest in http://dpaste.com/9631/ ?
13:02:16 <Deewiant> Well why should fwrite fail just because it's at EOF
13:02:21 <Deewiant> Or if it just doesn't clear it, then that's fine
13:02:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no it wont fail. It just won't clear it
13:02:42 <Deewiant> Since it /is/ at EOF so of course it should indicate that :-p
13:02:46 <AnMaster> anyway: what about the logic in http://dpaste.com/9631/ ?
13:03:06 <Deewiant> Why continue if it couldn't read what it wanted
13:03:15 <Deewiant> IMO reverse always if read != wanted
13:03:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, because I read some bytes
13:03:23 <AnMaster> it seems logical to return them
13:03:24 <Deewiant> Yes, but not as many as were requested
13:03:46 <Deewiant> Oh, right, you don't write them to funge-space if you return
13:03:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, true, but then we should also seek back to the point we were before the read
13:03:55 <Deewiant> But you should still reverse IMO
13:04:34 <AnMaster> well either seek back to the point before the fread() that failed to read as much, or write the read bytes to funge space
13:04:48 <Deewiant> Yeah, OK. I say do the latter.
13:04:50 <AnMaster> considering that we might not be reading from a normal file I think it is stupid to try to seek back
13:05:03 <AnMaster> what if I opened a fifo file with FILE?
13:05:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, should the rest of the space we would have written otherwise be zero filled or should we just write as many bytes as we got?
13:06:15 <Deewiant> Write what you got, there can be zeroes in the file too
13:07:11 <AnMaster> I guess the program could figure it out with L...
13:07:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so will you fix mycology to not say BAD on R reflecting due to end of file?
13:08:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, as usual RCS specs doesn't say anything about what should happen btw
13:09:12 <Deewiant> And RC/Funge doesn't reflect, of course :-)
13:09:32 <AnMaster> I don't know if you test anything else with 1R there
13:11:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you mean something like this: http://dpaste.com/9640/
13:17:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so when will you upload a fixed mycology btw?
13:41:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does the funge spec say that you have to use line buffered output anywhere?
13:42:05 <AnMaster> I mean, is there anything forbidding fully buffered output?
13:42:07 <Deewiant> y has that bit that says whether you use unbuffered or not
13:42:23 <Deewiant> For that, I suppose not, it's just not a good idea in practice :-P
13:42:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it makes cfunge 20% faster on mycology. Sounds like a good idea to me ;)
13:43:09 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually it is an option in cfunge nowdays, -b
13:43:35 <AnMaster> it also uses a larger buffer than default
13:45:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: better idea: make , a no-op
13:45:53 <AnMaster> anyway I always call fflush() before reading input.
13:45:57 <Deewiant> Or even better: do a single getchar() at the end, if you get 'y' then flush your buffer, otherwise don't
13:47:22 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it is a bad idea to make sarcastic comments about cfunge. You won't have anything left to say for jitfunge then
13:48:05 <asiekierka> What will you say if picfunge will happen
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13:49:15 <Deewiant> I'll keep saying what I've been saying
13:53:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this applies to CCBI too?
13:53:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, depends on what sort of match that is
13:53:57 <AnMaster> but cfunge doesn't match either
13:55:38 <AnMaster> then it matches CCBI's expanded name
13:56:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm, does glob imply end of line?
14:01:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I think fizzie isn't working on jitfunge currently
14:01:41 <AnMaster> but I think efunge will soon be ready for a first basic release.
14:01:56 <AnMaster> it won't yet have ATHR, that work is ongoing but far from completed yet
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15:55:45 <ais523> [14:55] [Notify] ehird is online (irc.freenode.net).
15:55:47 <ais523> [14:55] [Away] ehird is away: Not online right now. Please leave a message after the beep. *BEEP*
15:56:02 <ais523> maybe you should check away /before/ notifying me?
15:56:22 <ais523> or maybe I should blame it on the IRC spec for ISON and AWAY interacting so strangely
16:10:04 <AnMaster> I think I found a CCBI and cfunge bug
16:11:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, have you tested non-cardinal wrapping ?
16:11:57 <ais523> what, a bug that affects both of them?
16:12:02 <ais523> also, non-cardinal wrapping is a nightmare
16:12:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, it's in Mycology.
16:12:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I tried wrapping -30,-18
16:12:18 <ais523> although I think I know how it's meant to work
16:12:38 <AnMaster> I think ccbi and cfunge are both wrong
16:12:56 <ais523> is mycology also wrong?
16:13:35 <Deewiant> I doubt CCBI's wrong since I do what the spec says, verbatim
16:15:46 <AnMaster> I tried several other values so it can't just be a coincidence that I land on the x, I tried changing the delta slightly to x and I still run into same issue.
16:16:03 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/YDQG4330.html
16:16:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I was trying to figure out where the x should land. But it lands on itself
16:16:51 <AnMaster> and I don't think that is correct, when I changed 0a9+- to 0a8+-
16:17:28 <Deewiant> That's exactly what's supposed to happen if no other cells are in the path
16:17:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why should it be correct?
16:17:34 <ais523> Lahey lines imply that you end up back where you started after making one loop around fungespace
16:17:41 <Deewiant> The requirements for a line in Lahey-space are the following: Starting from the origin, no matter what direction you head, you eventually reach the origin. If you go the other way you reach the origin from the other direction.
16:18:01 <AnMaster> sure. But shouldn't you hit some other cell first?
16:18:16 <ais523> only if there's another cell on the line
16:18:38 <ais523> for instance, if your delta is (-2000000000,6), there are only three cells on the line
16:26:26 <AnMaster> actually this is wrong I think. If the first jump is large enough that you end up in range in the other end already
16:29:57 <asiekierka> Each block can have an assigned function
16:30:05 <asiekierka> and balls start moving in a predefined way
16:30:20 <ais523> sort-of sounds like you're deliberately making sure it isn't TC
16:30:24 <ais523> although that isn't necessarily a bad thing
16:30:33 <asiekierka> I just wanted to have an esolang that I can watch
16:30:44 <asiekierka> And 240x160 is in fact for the DS version
16:30:57 <ais523> reminds me of Paintfuck
16:31:05 <ais523> that's a very watchable esolang
16:31:16 <ais523> BackFlip's fun to watch too, actually, but sub-TC
16:32:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ais523: http://rafb.net/p/QAzoUk37.html
16:32:51 <asiekierka> As in, there will be I/O commands: "Get_Button" for Input and "Draw_Line", "Draw_Pixel" for output
16:32:55 * ais523 vaguely wonders whether to repaste that somewhere else based on the ehird demands
16:33:01 <ehird> 21:22:44 <bsmntbombdood> http://pastie.org/410691
16:33:09 <ehird> oh god shut up asiekierka
16:33:17 <ais523> you are in a maze of twisty little at signs, all alike
16:33:28 <ehird> nobody cares about your same esolang repeated 5 thousand times over 70 lines that you give us every month
16:33:47 <ehird> is it? because i've heard it from you 20 times
16:34:06 <asiekierka> therefore we can't know if you really DID
16:34:08 <ais523> AnMaster: the x is menat to be (-20,-30)?
16:34:14 <ais523> my Befunge is rusty...
16:34:33 <AnMaster> ais523, the x is at x = 18, y = 28
16:34:47 <ais523> and with a delta of (-20,-30)?
16:34:54 <ais523> there are no other cells inside your fungespace on that line
16:34:59 <ais523> well, inside the allocated portion
16:35:04 <ehird> sometimes I think AnMaster is the most annoying person in here. i retract that, he's super awesome.
16:35:04 <ais523> and the rest is full of spaces so it'll be skipped
16:35:13 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it should end up near the @ in the lower corner in the program
16:35:35 <ais523> going one space forawrd is (38,58) which is outside your range
16:35:38 <AnMaster> ais523, -1 on edge gets you to first cell on opposite edge
16:35:45 <ais523> that's what you're doing wrong
16:35:49 <ehird> 23:32:31 <zzo38> In your opinion, does 1 + 2 pow 2 + 2 pow 4 + 2 pow 6 + 2 pow 8 and so on make -1/3 in my opinion it does because in binary it is .......010101010101. and if you multiply it by three you get negative one, so therefore it is correct. Or you think the result is infinite? I would like to know your opinion
16:35:50 <ehird> 23:34:55 <zzo38> Do you like to use FOWER instead of FOUR, or FIFE instead of FIVE
16:35:56 <ais523> fungespace isn't a torus
16:35:57 <AnMaster> ais523, it technically does. That is the effect.
16:36:01 <ehird> who needs acid when you have quick-fire zzo38 questions
16:36:03 <AnMaster> ais523, sure. But the effect is that
16:36:30 <AnMaster> ais523, well even with this algorithm you get that effect when moving cardinally
16:36:33 <ais523> the next cell on your line is (38,58); the previous is (-2,-2)
16:36:34 <ehird> wait, uppercaps NO from ais523? that's reserved for me!
16:36:37 <ais523> you get that effect cardinally
16:36:42 <ais523> but for a different reason
16:36:50 <ais523> because when you're moving cardinally to the left, say
16:36:55 <ais523> the previous cell is the cell to the right
16:36:58 <AnMaster> ais523, hm right. So what would the delta be to end up near:
16:37:05 <ehird> 23:45:09 <zzo38> O, and do esolang people have any preferences having to do with mahjong game
16:37:05 <ehird> 23:50:09 <zzo38> Yes
16:37:09 <ehird> who needs answers, either
16:37:17 <ais523> AnMaster: where is that cell you're aiming for?
16:37:18 <AnMaster> ais523, while wrapping both x and y negatively
16:37:18 <ehird> <zzo38> Yes I am replying to you asiekierk!i=africalo@078088180066.elb.vectranet.pl <- :D
16:37:44 <ais523> as in, what coordinates?
16:37:54 <AnMaster> ais523, in http://rafb.net/p/wJZOqZ63.html it is the cell with !
16:39:10 <ehird> AnMaster: can you please stop using rafb.net to paste? it's one or two seconds saved at your end vs annoyance for everyone else later on
16:39:12 <ais523> ok, so going forwards would be a delta of (52-18,33-28) which is (36,5)
16:39:25 <ais523> therefore, to do it wrapping you need a delta of (-36,-5)
16:39:38 <ais523> with lahey-wrapping, you can't reach a cell by wrapping unless you could reach it going backwards
16:39:50 <AnMaster> ais523, I find flying IP incredibly hard to think at
16:40:11 <ehird> 15:39 ehird: AnMaster: can you please stop using rafb.net to paste? it's one or two seconds saved at your end vs annoyance for everyone else later on
16:41:06 <ais523> ehird: my reply to that is at http://pastebin.ca/1355862
16:41:10 <AnMaster> ais523, err that doesn't work either...
16:41:25 <ais523> we may have the coordinates worng
16:41:39 <AnMaster> ais523, pastebin.ca times out all the time for me...
16:41:49 <ehird> ais523: it's useful for when looking at the logs, when e.g. finding code that was made before that is being looked for now, finding the code someone answered to a question, ..
16:41:57 <AnMaster> I haven't been able to access it for over half a year
16:41:59 <ais523> ehird: but the timeout on that comment is only 5 minutes
16:42:04 <ais523> so it's utterly useless for any logreader
16:42:24 <ais523> ehird: you seem to be missing the fundamental nature of IRC here...
16:42:48 <ehird> You seem to like saying that whenever I say something you disagree with: you're absolutely fundamentally missing the point.
16:42:55 <ais523> AnMaster: try (-33,-5)
16:42:59 <ehird> It works nicely as an alternative to making real arguments, I guess.
16:43:08 <ais523> ehird: I mean, it's transient
16:43:15 <ais523> why do you think freenode have the rule against unannounced public logs?
16:43:21 <ais523> it's because it breaks the expectations most people have of IRC
16:43:29 <ehird> it's transient! of course! Let's kick clog.
16:43:37 <ehird> clog: stop it. IRC is transient. People shouldn't be able to read things after they happen.
16:43:45 <ais523> clog is rather unusual, it's trying to make #esoteric into something that isn't that common on IRC
16:43:50 <ais523> after all, how many IRC channels are logged?
16:43:57 <ehird> most of the high profile ones.
16:43:58 <ais523> probably more on Freenode than on most other networks, tbh
16:44:14 <ais523> ok, probably I miscounted
16:44:21 <ais523> I was trying to count via mousehover
16:44:28 <ais523> let me count in an edit box, that's more reliable
16:46:04 <ehird> AnMaster: how fast is this to load? http://dpaste.com/
16:46:23 <ehird> unfortunately no never-expire option, so forget that
16:46:38 <ais523> ehird: expecting pastebins to keep the things you write never expiring is crazy
16:46:47 <ais523> that's like wanting random internet sites to give you free hosting forever
16:46:47 <ehird> ais523: pastie does it. pastebin.com can do it.
16:46:53 <ehird> plenty of them do it.
16:46:58 <ehird> also, plain text takes up roughly no space.
16:47:13 <ais523> I think the solution to all this is to have a dedicated #esoteric pastebin, that can keep things around forever
16:47:26 <AnMaster> and that loads as fast as rafb
16:47:31 <ais523> preferably on a site run by one of us
16:47:50 <AnMaster> also it needs a command line paste tool
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16:53:26 <ais523> who was jorrdi, I wonder?
16:53:38 <ais523> anyway, I was writing an Enigma level over the last couple of days
16:54:09 <ais523> does anyone here know a pastebin that complies with both ehird's and AnMaster's standards and also accepts XML with embedded Lua?
16:54:40 <ais523> ok, I was being slightly sarcastic
16:54:51 <ais523> but I thought people here might want to take a look at it
16:55:14 <AnMaster> but for it to be useful to me it needs to highlight C and have a plain text mode. More languages are a bonus
16:55:17 <asiekierka> Is anyone interested in watching my desktop
16:55:34 <AnMaster> and I like support for bash, erlang and scheme especially
16:55:50 <AnMaster> oh and paste.lisp.org would be ok apart from having to enter, or script entering a captcha
16:56:05 <ais523> "script entering a captcha"?
16:56:07 <pikhq> Perhaps have it written in such a way that it could easily have highlighting modules added...
16:56:12 <ehird> ais523: it's always 'lisp'.
16:56:14 <ais523> there is something very very wrong with that phrase
16:56:40 <pikhq> So that users of the pastebin could suggest highlighters, which could get added rather quickly...
16:57:01 <ais523> because people are more likely to want to run the program than read it
16:57:20 <ais523> strange, epiphany crashed
16:57:50 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/fdzyqw/ais52301_1.xml
16:57:59 <ais523> (Enigma has a naming convention for filenames...)
16:58:09 <pikhq> pastebin.ca is rather nice... Has a "raw" link, making it easy to download, and still has a nice highlighted text thing...
16:58:15 <ais523> if you save that as ~/.enigma/levels/auto/ais52301_1.xml it should show up in the game
16:58:23 <ais523> in the "auto" level pack
16:58:28 <ehird> pikhq: pastie.org is nicer
16:58:36 <ais523> it's still slightly buggy
16:58:37 <pikhq> ehird: Hmm. Good to know.
16:58:39 <ehird> it has all of those things and less clutter
16:58:41 <Deewiant> For what it's worth I'm instantly turned off by non-binary files which are served with a MIME type that browsers want to save instead of view
16:58:55 <ais523> Deewiant: it may as well be binary, it's a crazy enough format...
16:59:02 <oklopol> asiekierka: Is anyone interested in watching my desktop <<< not if you're sharing it knowingly.
16:59:08 <Deewiant> Hmm, missing an auxiliary clause there, it's not the MIME type that's being saved
16:59:25 <pikhq> Is application/xml too hard to serve up or something?
16:59:37 <ais523> well, it's mostly written in Lua, just with an XML wrapper
16:59:48 <oklopol> ais523: what kinda level is it?
16:59:53 <ais523> oklopol: an intelligence-based level
17:00:00 <ais523> in easy mode, it's a 2-player game
17:00:05 <ais523> in hard mode, it's a 1-player game against an AI
17:00:35 <ais523> so with easy mode, the level can be solved very quickly if both players are cooperating, because either player winning wins the level
17:00:46 <ais523> to complete it in hard mode is much slower as you have to beat the computer AI, and it won't be cooperating
17:01:10 <ais523> but I took quite a lot of effort making the intelligence the main problem about the level
17:01:41 -!- antirafb has joined.
17:01:44 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/wJZOqZ63.html
17:01:47 <ais523> based on their rating rules, I rate it about speed 1, dexterity 2, intelligence 5, knowledge either 3 or 6 (I'm not sure which), and patience maybe about 3
17:01:53 -!- antirafb has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:02:23 <oklopol> hmm, what's the difference between speed and dexterity?
17:02:33 -!- antirafb has joined.
17:02:34 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/wJZOqZ63.html
17:02:34 -!- antirafb has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:02:38 <oklopol> on second thought i guess that's pretty obvious
17:02:56 <ais523> oklopol: dexterity's how easy it is to put the level in an unwinnable situation, or die, due to the mouse equivalent of a typo
17:02:57 -!- antirafb has joined.
17:03:03 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/wJZOqZ63.html
17:03:04 -!- antirafb has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:03:33 <ais523> whereas a high speed means you have to play the level quickly to avoid dying
17:03:44 -!- antirafb has joined.
17:03:45 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/wJZOqZ63.html
17:03:46 -!- antirafb has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:03:52 <ehird> Close, close indeed.
17:04:26 <oklopol> i thought you were telling everyone who joins about your cool paste :D
17:05:56 -!- antirafb has joined.
17:05:57 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/wJZOqZ63.html
17:06:09 -!- antirafb has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:06:31 -!- antirafb has joined.
17:06:31 <ais523> oh no, not another Brainfuck derivative
17:06:31 -!- antirafb has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:06:36 <ais523> that manages to be sub-TC, somehow
17:06:42 -!- antirafb has joined.
17:06:43 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/wJZOqZ63.html
17:06:44 <antirafb> ehird: ITYM http://pastie.org/private/bjrfso3nuwmpj5ntxhhmug
17:06:46 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ParrBF
17:07:00 <ais523> ehird: why a private pastie?
17:07:08 <ehird> ais523: so it doesn't show up in the recent pastes list
17:07:13 <comex> I ask #esoteric: should I remap '%' in vim
17:07:17 <comex> because typing it really annoys me
17:07:24 <Deewiant> ehird: Is it clever enough to try something else if pastie times out or fails?
17:07:26 <ais523> what are you planning to remap it to?
17:07:36 <ehird> Deewiant: no, it also only handles one rafb.net paste per line
17:07:42 -!- tombom has joined.
17:07:53 <ehird> now to put it on rutian
17:07:54 <Deewiant> Handling more than one shouldn't be too tough
17:07:57 <ehird> comex: if you say Bayes, *krrtch*
17:08:10 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/diediedie.html
17:08:11 -!- antirafb has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:08:35 <AnMaster> ais523, Deewiant: http://rafb.net/p/rwSMXZ13.html, as far as I know mycology didn't test wrapping -y
17:08:54 -!- antirafb has joined.
17:08:55 <ehird> http://rafb.net/p/diediedie.html
17:09:06 <Deewiant> I assume that if -x and x work then -y and y do as well
17:09:10 <oklopol> imo ParrBF looks fairly interesting, you're executing a brainfuck program for each cell in parallel
17:09:19 <oklopol> assuming [ and ] are defined like that
17:09:26 <Deewiant> Or rather, I don't assume anything since I don't use y wrapping at all
17:09:27 <oklopol> can't really tell from that.
17:09:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, You assumed your TURT worked iirc. It turned out it didn't
17:09:42 <ais523> oklopol: you're limited to a finite number of cells like that, though
17:09:46 <Deewiant> Well sure, I assume stuff works if there's no known case where it fails
17:10:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I assume stuff is broken unless I written a test case to test it :)
17:10:08 <Deewiant> I'm not hardcore enough to go about things the other way
17:10:26 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I did test TURT, though
17:10:27 <oklopol> ais523: true, but i think "ipc" between cells might be kinda interesting
17:10:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, but not very detailed
17:10:44 <oklopol> well. assuming [ and ] are global
17:10:56 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So do you assume that all possible execution paths through cfunge are bugged, except the ones you've tested?
17:11:16 <Deewiant> Point being, complete testing is impossible.
17:11:30 <Deewiant> At least in this universe, without time travel.
17:11:41 <oklopol> yeah, prove it or ..shoove it
17:11:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no, but I try to test all paths
17:12:10 <AnMaster> but I try to test as much as I can
17:12:44 <AnMaster> Deewiant, stuff like fuzz testing helped a lot during one period. Nowdays I don't really find anything new with fuzz testing.
17:16:35 <AnMaster> <pikhq> pastebin.ca is rather nice... Has a "raw" link, making it easy to download, and still has a nice highlighted text thing... <-- except I can't resolve the IP. I always get DNS timeout for pastebin.ca
17:16:56 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> For what it's worth I'm instantly turned off by non-binary files which are served with a MIME type that browsers want to save instead of view <-- same
17:18:25 <AnMaster> ais523, how does one run engima on a file? Or where/how does one install a level
17:18:47 <ais523> AnMaster: copy it to ~/.enigma/levels/auto
17:18:54 <ais523> and it's automatically made into the Open It Up levelpack
17:19:05 <ais523> how did I manage that?
17:19:47 <ais523> if you go to all level packs, you'll see it
17:20:02 <ais523> and its empty most of the time, until you put things into auto to be automatically made into levelpacks
17:20:44 <asiekierka> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/asietv - i'm broadcasting my desktop O_O
17:21:24 <ehird> I am only interested if I can take control of your machine and deltree /y.
17:21:41 <ehird> Oh god your voice.
17:21:41 <ais523> ehird: "deltree /y" doesn't do anything, that's missing one argument
17:21:52 <ehird> ais523: It's a verb like "rm -rf".
17:23:08 <ehird> This is morbidly interesting.
17:23:13 <AnMaster> ais523, err, how do I switch ball then?
17:23:28 <ais523> AnMaster: in easy mode, there's a yinyang lying around
17:23:29 <ais523> in hard mode, you'll find the white ball is AI-controlled
17:23:49 <ais523> easy's a bit boring unless you have someone else to play against, thoguh
17:23:56 <ehird> asiekierka pronounces ehird as "eh erd"
17:23:58 <ais523> because that's a 2-player game
17:24:01 <AnMaster> ugh, that is a logic level. *prefers action ones*
17:24:09 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, it's a logic level
17:24:11 <ehird> AnMaster: oklopol will now lynch you.
17:24:14 <Deewiant> ehird: That's how I pronounced it at first too, until you told me how
17:24:23 <ais523> logic levels and action levels are both fun to play
17:24:28 <ais523> but logic levels are a lot more fun to write
17:24:35 <ais523> especially if you write an AI for them
17:24:36 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, it's funny because asiekierka is polish. Or something.
17:24:50 <AnMaster> ehird, how is it pronounced then?
17:25:06 <ehird> AnMaster: in the herd.
17:25:23 <ehird> ais523: write pong in Enigma!
17:25:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 'i sound' means approximately nothing in English
17:25:40 <AnMaster> <ehird> yes, asiekierka. <-- wait did asiekierka say something?
17:25:49 <ais523> ehird: I was plannign that
17:25:54 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm listening to his grating voice while watching his screen.
17:25:57 <ehird> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/asietv
17:26:01 <ais523> AI might be quite difficult
17:26:19 <ehird> ais523: not really, perfect pong AI is pretty trivial, no?
17:26:31 <ais523> ehird: moving the white marble around isn't
17:26:41 <ehird> ais523: surround it by blocks
17:26:47 <ehird> hitting a block moves it down or up
17:26:59 <ais523> if you listen very carefully to that Enigma level I pasted, you'll hear a repetitive clink-clink-clink in the background
17:27:10 <ais523> that's what's moving the white marble
17:27:18 <ehird> I haven't tried it yet
17:27:21 <ais523> via a really rather convoluted set of code
17:27:33 <AnMaster> ais523, for pong wouldn't you use one of those small white balls?
17:27:41 <ais523> AnMaster: possibly, or maybe a bug or a horse
17:27:48 <AnMaster> do you mean the player *plays the ball?
17:27:55 <ais523> no, the player plays the paddle
17:28:01 <ehird> that would be amazing
17:28:05 <Deewiant> /aɪ/ /ɑe/ /əɪ/ /ɪ/ /ə/ /ː/ /ɚ/ are all possible 'i sounds' in English, there are probably a bunch more when you consider the various dialects
17:28:10 <ehird> getting batted around and trying to help one paddle
17:28:11 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure how to make it interesting though
17:28:20 <ais523> to work as pong, you'd need to fill the center of the level as space
17:28:22 <ehird> AnMaster: well you're being batted against your will
17:28:24 <AnMaster> maybe you need to follow the correct path to not hit hidden death blocks?
17:28:25 <comex> we need more enigma levels
17:28:25 <ehird> but you're on one AI's side
17:28:29 <ehird> so you have to beat the other one
17:28:29 <ais523> if you want to play the ball, you'd make it ice instead
17:28:34 <ais523> so you have some control but not much
17:28:47 <ehird> i just know playing the ball in pong would be amazing
17:28:51 <comex> ais523: make up some enigma puzzle involving enigma
17:29:03 <ehird> make a game of life in enigma
17:29:05 <ehird> ^ really good idea
17:29:14 <ais523> comex: http://filebin.ca/fdzyqw/ais52301_1.xml
17:29:28 <ehird> 15:58 ais523: if you save that as ~/.enigma/levels/auto/ais52301_1.xml it should show up in the game
17:29:36 <ehird> now to find out where that is on os x
17:29:42 <ais523> not sure where you have to save it on windows or OS X
17:29:58 <ais523> it's going to be somewhere with a similar directory structure, though, probably
17:30:02 <ehird> ~/Library/Application Support/Enigma/levels/
17:30:04 <AnMaster> sane apps use ~/.* on all systems
17:30:23 <ehird> using . for a GUI app on OS X is considered very bad style
17:30:49 -!- antirafb has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:30:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well, How is the program to know? There is no POSIX API that tells it preferred location afaik
17:31:11 <ais523> AnMaster: that's something that nearly always goes in the packaging
17:31:13 <ehird> AnMaster: If you're writing an OS X app, you know about it, because you're using Cocoa.
17:31:21 <ais523> via a makefile variable or something equivalent if you aren't using makefiles
17:31:27 <ais523> locations for stuff is a packaging problem, not a programming problem
17:31:28 <ehird> Or some cross-platform toolkit, but you're getting an inferior experience there on OS X anyway.
17:31:37 <AnMaster> ehird, but engima runs on Linux. Which means it is either ported or using such a toolkit
17:31:42 <comex> Qt for example has a function for that
17:31:47 <ehird> AnMaster: it'll just do
17:31:52 <ehird> if (on_osx) { dir = '...'; }
17:31:56 <ais523> so for instance, C-INTERCAL doesn't hardcode locations nowadays, it takes them from makefile variables
17:32:03 <AnMaster> ehird, means you have to know about OS X *shrug*
17:32:05 <ais523> which finds the locations via autoconf
17:32:13 <ehird> AnMaster: you have to know about os x to produce a well-crafted os x app?
17:32:31 <AnMaster> ehird, true, but point is OS X pretends to be *nix.
17:32:33 <comex> they have a X11 implementation, but it sucks
17:32:36 <ais523> anyway, for that level, I recommend you play on hard if you don't have a second human handy to play against
17:32:43 <ehird> AnMaster: umm, no pretending.
17:32:49 <AnMaster> ehird, "<AnMaster> in fact it is"
17:32:57 <ehird> it is unix, and for command-line apps, .foo is fine
17:32:58 <oklopol> asiekierka's life is so interesting
17:32:58 <comex> maybe, but not nearly as bad as X11.app sucks
17:33:02 <ehird> just GUI apps have a different structure
17:33:11 <ehird> comex: meh, I wouldn't want to use X11.app anyway :P
17:33:17 <ehird> ais523: I am going to try it
17:33:29 <ehird> how do I set hard?
17:33:31 <ehird> The bronze medal thing>
17:33:42 <comex> ehird, it could be a lot better though
17:33:50 <ehird> AnMaster: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh
17:33:51 <comex> why does everything need to be arduously ported to cocoa?
17:33:59 <ehird> comex: because it has different UI guidelines
17:34:05 <ehird> you can't just do that automatically
17:34:09 <ehird> it's a totally different design
17:34:17 <ehird> and it's why OS X apps are so good
17:34:22 <ehird> ais523: how do you set difficulty?
17:34:41 <AnMaster> ehird, what is (or rather: was) wrong with OpenWindows?
17:34:49 <comex> Qt mac, gimp native etc
17:34:51 <ehird> comex: I'm really uninterested.
17:34:52 <comex> aren't as good as native apps
17:34:53 <ehird> You're wasting your time
17:34:56 <comex> but they're a lot better than x11.app
17:35:08 <ehird> now, ais523: ping.
17:35:57 <ehird> AnMaster: I a m u i n t e r e s t e d a n d t r y i n g t o p l a y a i s 5 2 3 ' s l e v e l
17:36:09 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenWindows
17:36:12 <ehird> AnMaster: I a m u i n t e r e s t e d a n d t r y i n g t o p l a y a i s 5 2 3 ' s l e v e l
17:36:12 <ehird> AnMaster: I a m u i n t e r e s t e d a n d t r y i n g t o p l a y a i s 5 2 3 ' s l e v e l
17:36:18 <ehird> AnMaster: I a m u i n t e r e s t e d a n d t r y i n g t o p l a y a i s 5 2 3 ' s l e v e l
17:36:18 <ehird> AnMaster: I a m u i n t e r e s t e d a n d t r y i n g t o p l a y a i s 5 2 3 ' s l e v e l
17:36:20 <ehird> AnMaster: I a m u i n t e r e s t e d a n d t r y i n g t o p l a y a i s 5 2 3 ' s l e v e l
17:36:27 <AnMaster> ehird, <ehird> AnMaster: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh <-- ??
17:36:27 <AnMaster> ehird, <ehird> AnMaster: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh <-- ??
17:36:28 <AnMaster> ehird, <ehird> AnMaster: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh <-- ??
17:36:28 <AnMaster> ehird, <ehird> AnMaster: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh <-- ??
17:36:29 <ehird> Every thing you say increases the amount of times I'll say that.
17:36:33 <AnMaster> ehird, <ehird> AnMaster: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh <-- ??
17:36:34 <ehird> AnMaster: I a m u i n t e r e s t e d a n d t r y i n g t o p l a y a i s 5 2 3 ' s l e v e l
17:36:35 <ehird> AnMaster: I a m u i n t e r e s t e d a n d t r y i n g t o p l a y a i s 5 2 3 ' s l e v e l
17:36:36 <ehird> AnMaster: I a m u i n t e r e s t e d a n d t r y i n g t o p l a y a i s 5 2 3 ' s l e v e l
17:36:38 <ehird> AnMaster: I a m u i n t e r e s t e d a n d t r y i n g t o p l a y a i s 5 2 3 ' s l e v e l
17:36:40 <ehird> AnMaster: I a m u i n t e r e s t e d a n d t r y i n g t o p l a y a i s 5 2 3 ' s l e v e l
17:36:55 <asiekierka> if you can't hear the radiophonewaves of my teleradiovision
17:36:56 <ehird> asiekierka: tell AnMaster to stop bugging me about shit I don't care about and I will.
17:37:02 <oklopol> fun to see all the kids yelling random stuff :D
17:37:19 <AnMaster> asiekierka, tell ehird that I will stop as soon as ehird explains what he meant with "<ehird> AnMaster: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh"
17:37:30 <ehird> AnMaster: have fun, but you're on ignore now.
17:37:35 <ehird> ais523: how do you set difficulty?
17:37:38 <ehird> The icons are rather obscure.
17:38:07 <asiekierka> <ehird> AnMaster: have fun, but you're on ignore now.
17:38:09 <asiekierka> <AnMaster> btw tell ehird he is ignored
17:38:27 <ehird> don't tell me AnMaster is lying
17:38:32 <ehird> I thought he would never stop until I explained?!
17:38:36 <ehird> I can never trust his word again :<
17:38:37 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I didn't see that first line
17:39:37 <oklopol> so much social porn here today
17:40:25 <olsner> "social porn"? what's that, group masturbation?
17:41:16 <oklopol> it's this term some people use.
17:42:17 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
17:42:34 <oklopol> (btw asiekierka's going to sing a song, better join the fun)
17:44:16 <oklopol> could you record some of that for me?
17:44:17 <asiekierka> this is the first recorded sound of a human being
17:51:15 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:51:22 <ehird> I'm playing your level
17:51:25 <ehird> whyyy does the ai move so jerky
17:51:39 <ais523> because it was hard to get it to move at all
17:51:48 <ais523> the thing that's controlling the ai white marble is a second black marble off the screen
17:51:53 <ais523> that's repeatedly bouncing on a flash stone
17:52:09 <ais523> it gives a lot more control than the usual gradient method
17:52:17 <ehird> oklopol: download enigma
17:52:20 <ehird> put it in the right place
17:52:23 <ais523> oklopol: which OS are you on?
17:52:36 <ais523> I don't know where the right place is on Windows
17:52:38 <oklopol> oh i can't just open some level pack which connects straight to ais :|
17:53:12 <ehird> that damn ai got me beat again
17:53:36 <ais523> oklopol: I've just read the manual
17:53:42 <ais523> if you load enigma and go into options
17:53:48 <ais523> it should tell you where the "User Path" is
17:53:58 <ais523> you need to store the level in levels/auto on the user path
17:54:30 <ais523> my level's still slightly buggy
17:54:44 <ais523> sometimes the AI gets lost if it's trying to do a large push on the left-most group of blocks
17:54:52 <ais523> but I think I know how that's fixed, just haven't been bothered to
17:59:09 <oklopol> okay didn't work, tried suffices ".lev" and ""
17:59:25 <ais523> as is suggested in the URL
18:00:21 <oklopol> yeah but it was xml, so i thought the .xml was because of that :)
18:00:27 <oklopol> once it's offline, it becomes a level
18:00:39 <ehird> dude. an Ian owns n@ai
18:00:43 <ehird> that is so fucking cool.
18:01:16 <ehird> http://www.ai/ <-- the nic
18:01:33 <ais523> ehird: solved my level yet?
18:01:41 <ais523> oklopol: got my level working yet?
18:01:41 <ehird> ais523: no, the ai is smarter than me.
18:01:50 <oklopol> ais523: no, now i get an error
18:01:54 <oklopol> are there two files by any chance?
18:01:55 <ais523> easy is human vs. human and you get the oxyds no matter who wins, so it's easy
18:02:44 <ais523> maybe the character encoding's got muddled somehow
18:02:47 <oklopol> so probably like a copy paste problem
18:02:50 <ais523> oh, I know what it might be
18:03:05 <ais523> try opening the level, and saving it as a windows-format text file
18:03:10 <ais523> text files are different on windows...
18:04:42 -!- asiekierka has set topic: There is no "i" in UBUNTU | WARNING: Very Mad (Statistical) Science | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:04:57 <ais523> asiekierka: what did youchange?
18:05:55 <ehird> no, I think it's impossible
18:06:04 <ais523> I know, because I've done it
18:06:31 <ais523> I could reveal the winning sequence of moves here, but that would spoil it for everyone else
18:06:45 <ais523> it is worth mentioning that the AI is good enough to win if you make even a single mistake
18:06:50 <oklopol> it's so hard you have to be incredibly good to even get it working
18:07:00 -!- asiekierka has set topic: There is no "i" in UBUNTU | WARNING: Very Mad (Statistical) Science | Logs: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | [this space left intentionally blanketh].
18:07:16 <ais523> oklopol: I guess it's harder on windows than on linux, it was pretty easy for me and ehird to get it working...
18:07:27 <ehird> oklopol: what is the error?
18:07:31 <ais523> AnMaster: did you try?
18:07:38 <ehird> he said he hated it
18:07:39 <oklopol> something about an illegal character or something
18:07:40 <ehird> because it was intelligence based
18:07:46 <ehird> and he likes mindless action.
18:07:58 <ehird> oklopol: copy the file to the folder instead of copypasting the contents
18:08:09 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but I prefer exploring levels rather than logic puzzle ones
18:08:12 <oklopol> yeah if only that was easy to do.
18:08:22 <ais523> ehird: I'm wondering if it's because the file has \n newlines not \n\r newlines
18:08:37 <ehird> windows uses utf 16
18:08:40 <ehird> your file is probably utf-8
18:08:48 <ehird> does it have special characters in?
18:08:53 <ais523> no special characters AFAIR
18:08:59 <ehird> does it have a utf-8 bom mark?
18:09:05 <ais523> ehird: I don't think so
18:09:10 <ais523> although it's copied from a template level
18:09:15 <oklopol> i can't decide where to dl stuff to on firefox (when i start a download), they just go directly on my desktop, which is full, and you can't scroll it on windows.
18:09:19 <ais523> so a BOM may have survived all the way through
18:09:24 <ehird> ais523: AnMaster has me on ignore, for the record
18:09:31 <ais523> oklopol: go to My Documents/Desktop via the file manager
18:09:34 <ehird> because I didn't answer his question about openwindows after he kept asking me about it
18:09:41 <ais523> that version is scrollable
18:10:01 <oklopol> it's just i get very pissed when oses are stupider than humans.
18:10:13 <AnMaster> oklopol, what happens on windows when desktop is full?
18:10:17 <ais523> <rimshot> then why are you using Windows? </rimshot>
18:10:25 <ais523> AnMaster: nothing, it continues to add icons but there's no way to click on them
18:10:27 <oklopol> stuff just goes off screen and cannot be touched :D
18:10:34 <ais523> unless you know the trick I just told oklopol
18:10:39 <AnMaster> ais523, wait, where are they? Outside the screen?
18:10:52 <AnMaster> at least a sane OS would put them on top of each other
18:10:57 <AnMaster> that would be confusing but less so
18:11:31 <ais523> AnMaster: personally, I think a sane OS wouldn't put thinks on the desktop unless the user wanted them there
18:11:39 <ais523> I have 5 desktop icons, 6 when I have a USB stick in
18:11:47 <ais523> and they're all things I only want to use just after boot
18:11:55 <AnMaster> Plus desktop should be clean: Trash, ~, media:/ + a few recently downloaded files. On windows that would be: Trash, My Documents, My Computer
18:11:58 <ais523> hmm sorry, 6 or 7 nowadays
18:12:06 <Deewiant> I don't have a desktop on Linux; on Windows my desktop is empty
18:12:26 <ais523> I have ~, the wireless network application, and four music playlists as desktop icons
18:12:37 <AnMaster> I also have a few PDFs there: C99, POSIX.1-2008, AMD64 Reference manual
18:13:04 <ais523> oklopol: got it working yet?
18:14:19 <ais523> is it working? and can /you/ beat the AI?
18:14:27 <oklopol> so there's the download option, but you can't see where it's going to dl it to
18:14:33 <oklopol> and then the download window opens
18:14:43 <oklopol> in the earlier versions the dl folder was on the bottom
18:14:50 <ais523> also, I programmed it all in the subset of Lua that I could deduce from the example levels I saw
18:14:50 <ehird> ais523: btw what is the gradient movement you mentioned
18:14:53 <oklopol> i had to open a fucking menu to see it
18:14:56 <ais523> which means no loops except by recursion
18:15:06 <ehird> ais523: it's just c style stuff
18:15:12 <ais523> ehird: you move things by changing the floor underneath them temporarily to a gradient and back again
18:15:20 <ais523> it's rather hard to do fine control like that, though
18:15:22 <ehird> from 0 to 10 stepping 2
18:15:33 <ais523> and it looks ugly unless you set the floor to one you can write a gradient on
18:15:38 <ehird> repeat foo until bar
18:15:42 <ais523> I was doing all my looping via recursion...
18:15:43 <ehird> and you can use 'break'
18:15:50 <ehird> that's all lua's loops, as far as I know
18:16:10 <ehird> ais523: oh, one more
18:16:14 <ehird> for x in y do foo end
18:16:23 <ehird> so you can do: for key, value in ipairs(table) do ... end
18:16:25 <ais523> what would y be there?
18:16:37 <ais523> ah, ipairs I've never heard of
18:16:39 <ehird> since it discards the tabley stuff
18:16:43 <ehird> ais523: ipairs just changes
18:16:47 <ehird> { x = y, foo = bar }
18:16:49 <ais523> also, do table keys have to be valid identifier names?
18:17:02 <ais523> I've been getting obscure bugs when I try to use numbers as table keys
18:17:13 <ehird> that's what arrays do
18:17:14 <ais523> prepending a letter it seems to work
18:17:18 <ehird> { 1,2,3 } is a table
18:17:32 <ais523> no, {x=1, y=2, z=3} is a table I think
18:17:41 <ehird> tables are the only complex datastructure in lua
18:17:51 <ais523> this is what happens when you try to learn a language by example...
18:18:07 <ehird> it also has a crazy thing called metatables, that let you use tables to make objects
18:18:16 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_(programming_language) pretty much describes all of lua
18:19:49 <ehird> has anyone made Enigma tic tac toe?
18:20:52 <ais523> I don't know of an implementation of that
18:20:56 <ais523> I might try, it wouldn't be too hard
18:21:03 <ehird> ais523: oh, ipairs is pairs with just integers, I think
18:21:06 <ehird> pairs gives you the key/value pairs
18:21:11 <ehird> also, I'd like to tryu
18:21:20 <ehird> I'll rip off your code :D
18:21:29 <ais523> I'm actually using that level as a template
18:21:33 <ais523> although you have to delete most of it
18:21:43 <ais523> and there are some subtleties in the header that need changing
18:22:43 <ais523> I strongly advise reading the reference docs before creating a level
18:23:27 <ehird> <el:score el:easy="0:27" el:difficult="4:10"/>
18:23:36 <ais523> yes, those are both genuine times
18:23:46 <ehird> yeah but it can't be that fast surely
18:23:49 <ais523> so you play the best possible strategy as one and the worst as the other
18:24:35 <ais523> (player 1: take all of the rightmost group, player 2: take all of the middle group, player 1: take all of the left group oh no I lost, player 2: oh look I won (gets oxyds)
18:24:51 <ehird> okay, you're just good with the mouse then
18:24:52 <ais523> it's easy to complete the level pretty quickly like that
18:25:10 <ais523> the hard mode actually requires skill to complete
18:25:15 <ehird> wonder what that means.
18:25:22 <ehird> oh, is that the standard screen size?
18:25:23 <ais523> 13 by 20 is one screen
18:25:37 <ais523> and you add an extra 12 to give another screen of height, and an extra 19 to give another screen of width
18:27:21 <ais523> but you really need to change the headers to prevent the whole thing borking
18:27:37 <ais523> you need a unique ID for the level, and there's a scheme to make sure they don't collide
18:27:58 <ais523> the release starts at one, score starts at 1 and increases every time you make a change to a released version that changes scoring compatibility
18:28:04 <ais523> and revision goes up by 1 or more every change
18:28:20 <ais523> also, the status should be "experimental" not "released" while you're editing the level
18:28:25 <ehird> what bozo designed this shit
18:28:30 <ais523> so it doesn't care about compatibility between different versions of it
18:28:52 <ais523> and in case you haven't guessed, the format was designed as a merger between multiple incompatible formats
18:29:39 <AnMaster> <ais523> which means no loops except by recursion <-- err... why?
18:29:43 <ehird> backwards compatibility strikes once again
18:29:51 <ehird> AnMaster: he onlyused the lua he learned from other levels
18:29:56 <ehird> which didn't include loops, apparently
18:30:04 <ais523> AnMaster: using only the subset of Lua that I could reverse-engineer from the levels I looked at
18:30:13 <ais523> and none of the ones I looked at contained loops
18:30:21 <ais523> but function definitions were there aplenty, so I just used recursion
18:30:23 <ehird> hm, yeah, AnMaster is ignoring me.
18:30:31 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc it is something quite like C loops. But I may misremember
18:30:40 <ehird> gee, I wonder who told him that
18:31:05 <ais523> I must be an esoprogrammer...
18:31:41 <ais523> because I'm trying to find any method of writing in a broken language rather than getting a better language
18:31:48 <oklopol> ais523: do i win or lose if the ai gets stuck in an infinite loop?
18:31:49 <ais523> where in this case, the broken language is a random subset of Lua
18:31:56 <ais523> oklopol: lose, I think
18:32:02 <ehird> I think that should be a win
18:32:05 <ais523> did you hit that bug where it goes back and forth in the leftmost group?
18:32:10 <ais523> it's a lose because you don't get the oxyds
18:32:26 <ais523> you put the level into an unwinnable situation...
18:32:28 <oklopol> ais523: you should probably mention you can't move the blocks in any order.
18:32:42 <ais523> what do you mean by that?
18:32:58 <ais523> it should be pretty obvious after a while what the rules for moving blocks are
18:33:13 <ais523> as in, the what is relatively easy to deduce, the level's all about the how
18:33:14 <ehird> I just did whatever it let me
18:33:14 <oklopol> yeah, but i thought it was a bug that occurred because i moved them at random
18:33:40 <ais523> ehird: well, blocks leave grates behind when you push them with bombs on, and the bombs explode when you go back to the top
18:33:53 <ais523> oklopol: no, it's a known bug
18:34:00 <ais523> and I think I know how to fix it but can't be bothered right now
18:34:17 <ais523> which means, the only way to get into one of the groups is via the one-way blocks at the top
18:34:30 <ais523> which means that on your turn, you can sink any number of blocks from any one of the groups
18:34:37 <ais523> but can't sink blocks from more than one group
18:34:43 <ais523> based on that, you need to make the AI sink the last block
18:34:54 <ehird> I just thought there were non-physical rules
18:34:58 <ais523> now, the how is the interesting part...
18:35:01 <ehird> i.e., it is possible to cheat in a non-bug way
18:35:06 <ehird> it seemed to be what you implied
18:35:10 <ais523> ehird: grates springing up when you move the block is a non-physical rule
18:35:19 <ais523> and no way to cheat that I know odf
18:35:21 <AnMaster> ais523, heh it says world record for that level (on easy)
18:35:21 <ehird> you're not meant to go on the block?
18:35:34 <AnMaster> very boring level IMO. But I have a different taste
18:35:46 <ais523> you need to use the block as a bridge to leave the group
18:35:58 <ais523> and you can use any of the blocks you pushed
18:36:00 <ehird> but are you allowed to go under the grate
18:36:03 <ais523> by analogy, this means you need to sink one block
18:36:10 <ais523> and going under the grate will kill you
18:36:12 <ais523> there's an abyss there
18:36:16 <ais523> unless it's a grate you created that turn
18:36:21 <ais523> in which case it's just a bomb
18:36:23 <ehird> I meant created this term
18:36:31 <ais523> if it's created that turn, fine
18:36:36 <ais523> but it won't let you break the rules of the level
18:36:44 <ais523> how were you ever getting back up to the top without going under the grates?
18:36:49 <ehird> "Think about that for a minute. It computes the answers. Wolfram Alpha doesn't simply contain huge amounts of manually entered pairs of questions and answers, nor does it search for answers in a database of facts. Instead, it understands and then computes answers to certain kinds of questions."
18:36:54 <oklopol> i think i'll solve this on paper
18:37:04 <ehird> can we stop with the "Wolfram Alpha is strong AI out of Stephen Wolfram's magical butt of being able to do anything" articles?
18:37:07 <ais523> oklopol: it is worth pointing out that it will never get stuck if you play with the optimal strategy
18:37:14 <ehird> ais523: I was going under them
18:37:31 <ehird> something you said to oklopol
18:37:35 <ehird> made me think you were saying
18:37:38 <ehird> that there were non-physical rules
18:37:49 <ehird> I'm just explaining what I thought
18:37:50 <ais523> I try to keep my levels as physical-rules-based as possible
18:37:54 <ais523> apart from the AI, of course
18:37:57 <ais523> which is very scripted
18:38:10 <oklopol> i'm not feeling like a puzzle tonight
18:38:17 <ehird> I tried to escape from the switcher thing and go and kill the white ball
18:38:19 <ehird> but I didn't succeed
18:38:31 <ais523> ehird: it took me ages fixing bugs in that thing!
18:38:32 <ehird> specifically, I tried to run away before it locked me in
18:38:57 <ais523> and that's impossible due to the way doors work in Enigma
18:39:01 <ais523> you can't enter them once they start closing
18:39:11 <ehird> yes, but the white ball starts before they close
18:39:25 <ais523> and as the trigger's on a different square, by definition you're outside them when you hit the trigger
18:39:56 <ehird> "There is no risk of Wolfram Alpha becoming too smart, or taking over the world. It's good at answering factual questions; it's a computing machine, a tool -- not a mind."
18:41:29 <ais523> I agree that there's no chance of it taking over the world
18:41:46 <ais523> I think there's a marginal chance it'll lead to Wolfram being booted from the internet, but for unrelated reasons
18:41:46 <ehird> the statement is stupid, though
18:42:11 <ais523> you'll see later on, if they still have the feature I'm thinking of
18:42:25 <ehird> does it download gigabytes of data every minute?
18:43:08 <ehird> but yeah, what I quoted was really stupid because a sufficiently advanced "computing machine" that correlates tons of its data (memories) and communicates a response, based on outside input (search query)...
18:43:16 <ehird> (for very large values of sufficiently advanced)
18:43:36 <ais523> well, I don't think you'll have to worry about sufficiently advanced
18:43:48 <ehird> I don't think that makes the statement any more valid
18:46:11 <ais523> incidentally, I've been trying to re-establish a wireless connection all this time
18:46:27 <ais523> I only came on mibbit because it was taking so long and I wanted to continue conversing...
18:48:21 <ehird> mysql --i-am-a-dummy
18:48:24 <ehird> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/4.1/en/mysql-tips.html#safe-updates
18:48:37 <ais523> is that an actual command line switch?
18:48:58 <ais523> also, why does mibbit not show a cursor in the box you're meant to type in?
18:49:00 -!- akiross has joined.
18:49:10 <ehird> I think I've had that problem
18:49:19 <ais523> which makes it hard to change something that isn't at the end of the sentence
18:49:59 <ais523> also, hi ehird, just to keep this chain going
18:50:13 <ehird> akiross is new, he's been here before
18:50:22 <ehird> he said he's working on a language that's like assembly for message-passing OOP
18:50:34 <ais523> that sounds sufficiently eso
18:51:55 <akiross> :) infact i'm here most to listen and see if it can interest, i'm not really in the "divulgation-phase" :D
18:52:10 <ais523> sounds like me sometimes
18:52:11 <ehird> that's a word there
18:52:23 <ais523> I can mention Underlambda and get lots of people shouting at me to release the spec
18:52:30 <ais523> or Feather and get people shouting at me to make some progress
18:52:47 <Deewiant> Wow, divulgate is actually a word
18:53:08 -!- ehird has set topic: Word of the day: Divulgation. Logs are good for your health: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:53:51 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Word of the day: Divulgation. Apples AND Logs are good for your health: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:53:56 -!- ehird has set topic: Word of the day: Divulgation. Logs are good for your health: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:54:05 <ehird> asiekierka: I always win the topic battles. Don't bother. :P
18:54:18 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Word of the day: Divulgation. Logs are too good for your health: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:54:27 -!- ais523 has quit ("mibbit.com: getting some apple juice").
18:54:34 <akiross> ahah i liked the apples one :D
18:54:34 -!- ehird has set topic: Word of the day: Divulgation. Logs are good for your health: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:54:39 <asiekierka> I said apples ARE good for your health
18:54:47 -!- ehird has set topic: Word of the day: Divulgation. Rocks are good for your health: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:55:01 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Word of the day: Apples. Logs are good for your health: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:55:08 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are good for your health: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:55:34 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Topics are good for your health. Logs aren't, but see them here: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:55:44 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are good for your topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:56:01 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Topics are good for your apples auce: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:56:08 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:56:35 -!- Deewiant has set topic: Topics divulgate apples: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:56:45 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Apples are apples for your... bananas! OH NO THE BANANA GAG! | http://tunes.org/~apples/apples/apples.
18:56:52 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:56:57 <ehird> Wow, now it's deep.
18:57:24 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Applepedia: Over 9.000.000.000 (divulgated) words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:57:31 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:57:55 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Apples for your divulgations: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:58:31 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:58:51 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Apples for ehird's divulgations: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:59:23 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Akiross for ehird's asiekierkas: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:59:24 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
18:59:33 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Divulgations.
18:59:50 -!- asiekierka has set topic: are.
18:59:53 -!- asiekierka has set topic: apples.
18:59:56 -!- asiekierka has set topic: for your.
19:00:00 -!- asiekierka has set topic: SPARTA!.
19:00:29 -!- Deewiant has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:00:36 -!- asiekierka has set topic.
19:00:39 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:00:45 <ehird> asiekierka: Your topic rights are revoked.
19:00:50 <ehird> You broke freenode policy
19:00:52 <ehird> by removing the log URL.
19:00:53 -!- asiekierka has set topic: #esoteric | No they are not, Mr. Anderson.
19:00:57 <ehird> asiekierka: Your topic rights are revoked.
19:00:58 -!- Deewiant has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:01:00 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:01:01 -!- asiekierka has set topic: #esoteric | No they are not, Mr. Anderson | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:01:03 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:01:15 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Let's listen to some tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:01:17 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:01:21 -!- Slereah has set topic: You are both suspended. | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:01:24 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:01:42 -!- asiekierka has set topic: THE NEXT PERSON THAT CHANGES THIS TOPIC SUCKS.
19:01:43 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:02:06 -!- asiekierka has set topic: THE NEXT PERSON THAT CHANGES THIS TOPIC A SPLODES.
19:02:10 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:02:50 -!- asiekierka has set topic: http:// tunes [dot] org / [somechar] net [backslash] lo [gee] s / [e]sote [rick without a k].
19:02:52 <ehird> I would tell you he quit to get applejuice
19:02:57 <ehird> but you're ignoring me, so tough shit
19:02:58 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:03:04 <asiekierka> <ehird> I would tell you he quit to get applejuice
19:03:06 <asiekierka> <ehird> but you're ignoring me, so tough shit
19:03:25 -!- asiekierka has set topic: The next person changing this topic must do it in Underload..
19:03:28 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:03:30 <AnMaster> right, if he isn't ignoring any moire
19:04:06 <ehird> Can you remember how I said I always won topic wars?
19:04:20 -!- asiekierka has set topic: NEVER GONNA GIVE YOU UP, NEVER GONNA LET YOU DOWN.
19:04:24 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:04:45 -!- asiekierka has set topic: NEVER GONNA SAY GOODBYE.
19:04:49 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:04:56 <ehird> My patience is being tried.
19:05:27 -!- asiekierka has set topic: You know the rules, and so do I.
19:05:51 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:07:48 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tinyurl.com/esoteric-logs.
19:08:30 <akiross> is there somewhere a bloated snusp interpreter? i can find only a perl-one for modular snusp
19:12:02 -!- Deewiant has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:13:06 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tinyurl.com/esoteric-logs.
19:13:09 <Deewiant> Oh, looks like it's a rick roll too
19:13:12 -!- Deewiant has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:13:32 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tinyurl.com/esoteric-logs.
19:13:41 <Deewiant> Or I guess it is, I don't remember all the rick roll youtube IDs
19:13:43 <ehird> Deewiant: asiekierka still thinks rick astley and GlaDoS are funny because he's an irritating kid stuck in 2006.
19:13:49 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/.
19:14:35 <AnMaster> asiekierka, please keep the proper log link in topic. I agree with ehird there
19:14:49 <AnMaster> I prefer the last at top sorting
19:15:03 <AnMaster> iirc it was your idea to begin with
19:15:04 <ehird> asking asiekierka to do something is like asking a brick wall to soften up a bit
19:15:21 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
19:18:26 <ehird> asiekierka: something really funny: http://throbs.net/fun/swf.asp?rgb.swf
19:20:01 <Deewiant> Why couldn't they include the whole tune
19:20:45 <ehird> Deewiant: Maybe it's deliberately repetitive, for people with, um, audial epilepsy?
19:23:14 <asiekierka> Well, that's true. You won this battle.
19:23:29 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tinyurl.com/esologs.
19:23:38 -!- Deewiant has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
19:23:55 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tinyurl.com/esologs.
19:24:08 -!- ehird has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
19:24:08 <Deewiant> It's a tinyurl so it's an extra click
19:24:15 <Deewiant> Regardless of whether it links to the right place
19:24:27 <Deewiant> I have the 'preview' function of tinyurl enabled
19:24:33 <Deewiant> To avoid crap like your rick roll
19:24:51 <Deewiant> But given that we have the option of just producing a direct link... why the hell would we not do so
19:25:02 <ehird> http://asienet.site40.net/
19:25:10 <ehird> "Give me a free PS3, now! What do you mean no?"
19:26:47 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://asienet.site40.net/logs.html.
19:26:57 -!- Deewiant has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
19:27:12 <ehird> god asiekierka is irritating.
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19:29:03 -!- asiekierka has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://asienet.site40.net/logs.html.
19:29:08 -!- Deewiant has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
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19:31:08 -!- asiekierk has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your wars: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
19:31:09 -!- asiekierk has set topic: Divulgations are apples for your words: http://asienet.site40.net/logs.html.
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19:31:30 <fizzie> Maybe we'll do something like that for a moment.
19:31:56 <ehird> fizzie: Can't you just eliminate the problem? :P
19:32:39 <fizzie> No, I don't like taking responsibility for stuff like that. :p
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19:35:06 <asiekierk> And you killed the coolest thing on this channel
19:35:27 <fungot> Deewiant: woohoo! srfi-49 has been finalized!
19:35:39 <fizzie> What an enthusiastic response.
19:35:54 <ehird> http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-49/srfi-49.html
19:36:11 <ehird> asiekierk: shut up
19:36:34 <ehird> fizzie: are you sure you can't eliminate the problem...
19:36:40 <fizzie> Oh, it was that i-expression thing. I didn't remember from the number.
19:38:06 <ehird> fizzie: Say, what Scheme do you use? I've found all of them woefully inadequate (invents their own solutions instead of using srfis)
19:38:20 <fizzie> ehird: Hey, this is freenode, it's all "Look for the best in people." and stuff.
19:38:49 <ehird> The best in asiekierka... hmm. He /parts sometimes.
19:39:03 <fizzie> ehird: Mainly I've used MzScheme (or PLT, anyway) even though I don't really like it, and it certainly does that own-solutions thing.
19:39:22 <ehird> PLT is just so bloated
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19:40:48 <ehird> yes but mostly those people are good to have around
19:41:03 <asiekierk> but i'm the worst ever person cuz you hate me for my spamminess
19:41:17 <tombom> what on earth is the point of that srfi
19:41:39 <ehird> tombom: satisfy lamers who have a parenthesis allergy
19:42:39 <fizzie> Yes, I personally can't even use more than seven Funge fingerprints in a single file, otherwise those (s make me sneeze uncontrollably.
19:42:50 <tombom> parentheses are pretty much the best thing about lispy languages, how silly
19:46:25 <MizardX> foot.c foot.h foot.o toe.c toe.o
19:46:29 <MizardX> rm: .o: No such file or directory
19:46:44 <ehird> asiekierk: no shit sherlock
19:46:50 <ehird> you had backups right
19:46:57 <fizzie> Wasn't that in one of the shoot-yourself-in-the-foot lists?
19:46:59 <ehird> or, was it in version control?
19:47:02 <ehird> * doesn't include .foo
19:47:06 <ehird> so just do a checkout
19:47:21 <Deewiant> fizzie: Seems likely, I was just thinking about what 'foot' and 'toe' could mean
19:47:42 <fizzie> http://www.fullduplex.org/humor/2006/10/how-to-shoot-yourself-in-the-foot-in-any-programming-language/ "Unix" was my first goggle-hit.
19:48:05 <fizzie> A lack of esoteric languages in that list.
19:48:20 <ehird> "Note: The IEEE Scheme standard permits only lambda expressions and constants as the value of internal defines."
19:49:19 <asiekierk> how do you shoot yourself in the foot IN IT
19:49:41 <ehird> you missed the whole joke
19:50:00 <asiekierk> Befunge is far more advanced than a typical esolang
19:51:49 <oerjan> ehird: that IEEE restriction reminds about reading how it's awkward to compile internal defines in the presence of continuations, maybe it's intended to solve that
19:55:03 <fizzie> SA forums have had a discussion about foot-shooting, where someone listed Befunge with "You pull the trigger and the bullet perforates your foot simultaneously from four different directions." and Brainfuck with "Construct, from individual molecules, gun, bullet and foot." Nothing too funny there.
19:55:28 * ehird decides between Gauche, MIT Scheme, PLT Scheme, Scheme48 & Gambit
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19:56:53 <oerjan> hm maybe Unlambda: "Suddenly a bullet emerges from inside your foot"
19:57:04 <ehird> Gauche: "GC is now Boehm GC 7.1."
19:57:05 <fizzie> ehird: If you want to grow up a Riastradh, do Scheme48.
19:57:14 <ehird> fizzie: God I hate Riastradh. :|
19:57:23 <ehird> But what was your meaning there?
19:57:32 <fizzie> He's a very Scheme48 person.
19:58:15 <ehird> I never figured out what s48's intention was.
19:58:35 <ehird> Also, its manual link is a 404, sheesh.
19:58:42 <asiekierk> Hey, I found another BF description in the comments
19:58:42 <asiekierk> Brainfuck: You create a Turing complete gun, but it takes
19:58:42 <asiekierk> more bytes of memory to store the gun than there are protons in the universe. The universe dies of old age before you finish writing the bullet.
19:59:06 <asiekierk> .Net: Microsoft shoots you in the foot.
19:59:30 <asiekierk> or Microsoft hands you a gun to shoot yourself in the foot, or Microsoft hands you a gun and swears blind it’s a toenail clipper
20:01:25 <oerjan> .Net: Microsoft shoots you in the foot, then when you complain they sue you for violating their EULA.
20:03:06 <asiekierk> DOBELA: Your feet are split into 5 individual dots. Then you find out you can't shoot them.
20:04:03 <asiekierk> Piet: You paint your foot, and then make a colorful border around it in order to shoot it.
20:04:42 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:04:56 <ehird> asiekierka: You look at your foot, and asiekierka changes the topic.
20:05:13 <asiekierk> ehird, good one, even if mocking me
20:05:16 <ais523> also, it doesn't take me that long to get apple juice normally
20:05:30 <asiekierk> asiekierka part 2: You pull out a gun, and ehird changes the topic back.
20:05:31 <ais523> just I went and shut down my laptop, and the public Windows computer I was using
20:05:37 <ais523> then went to a pub that sold apple juice
20:05:43 <ais523> and met some of my RL friends there
20:05:46 <ehird> ais523: quick! Gauche/Larceny/MIT Scheme/PLT Scheme/Scheme48/Gambit
20:05:46 <ais523> see, apple juice is good for you
20:06:01 <ais523> ehird: MIT Scheme's the only one of those I've heard of
20:06:09 <ehird> What boring logic.
20:06:16 <ais523> so I pick that one on the basis that it's the only one that has anything to tell it apart from the others from my point of view
20:06:58 <fizzie> ais523: You do know the names of the others; you could, for example, sort then in sha-hashed order, and choose thusly.
20:07:13 <asiekierk> Rick Astley: Never gonna pwn your foot, never gonna shoot them right...
20:08:16 <ehird> fizzie: That gives MIT.
20:08:31 <ehird> irb(main):008:0> %w(Gauche Larceny MIT PLT Scheme48 Gambit).map {|x| [Digest::SHA1.hexdigest(x),x] }.sort[0]
20:08:31 <ehird> => ["83618951efd5e2d2c5c9fb6c1477485364e59136", "PLT"]
20:09:00 <asiekierk> Wii: You try to shoot yourself in your foot but you can't aim it properly and you end up shooting your TV.
20:09:30 <ais523> wow, that's a pretty high number for the lowest SHA hash...
20:09:36 <ais523> how come they all hashed in the top hald?
20:09:40 <comex> .....................
20:09:51 <comex> unfortunately I don't think Python can do better
20:09:53 <fizzie> fis@iris:~$ echo "Gauche/Larceny/MIT Scheme/PLT Scheme/Scheme48/Gambit" | tr '/' '\n' | awk '{system("echo `echo -n "$0" | sha1sum` "$0);}' | sort | head -n 1
20:09:56 <fizzie> 103c701a4dbfc88dbd699811a1bda6350f3c75f6 - MIT Scheme
20:09:59 <fizzie> I used the names with spaces.
20:10:22 <asiekierk> DS: You touch your feet and access the Gun menu. There you select "Shoot". Then you find out you shot your girlfriend's feet.
20:10:35 <fizzie> That was directly copy-pasted from your question, though.
20:10:48 <comex> File "<stdin>", line 1
20:10:49 <comex> |i| hashlib.sha1(i).hexdigest()
20:10:52 <comex> SyntaxError: invalid syntax
20:11:14 <comex> and I wish python could do it
20:11:18 <comex> ......maybe it can
20:12:07 <ehird> http://practical-scheme.net/gauche/features.html A lot of SRFIs there.
20:12:17 <ehird> Still wary about it using Boehm.
20:12:47 <ehird> MIT Scheme is probably out, it barely supports any srfis
20:13:06 <comex> asiekierk: it's you, you're the very loud noise
20:13:28 * comex turns the volume down
20:13:51 <asiekierk> Deadfish: You have the gun, and the bullets, but you find out you can't input your feet.
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20:17:05 * comex turns the volume down
20:18:28 <ehird> that was a wicked netsplit
20:18:32 <ehird> just me, GregorR and Leonidas
20:18:56 <comex> ok that's annoying
20:18:59 <ehird> "The name ‘Scheme 48’ commemorates our having written the original version in forty-eight hours, on August 6th and 7th, 1986. "
20:19:05 <ehird> 1986? Wow. This is old.
20:19:37 <ais523> well, if they worked every 48 hours since then
20:19:43 <ais523> imagine how good it would be now!
20:19:53 <fizzie> Here's the missing python:
20:19:55 <fizzie> >>> sorted([(hashlib.sha1(imp).hexdigest(), imp) for imp in "Gauche/Larceny/MIT Scheme/PLT Scheme/Scheme 48/Gambit".split("/")])[0]
20:19:58 <fizzie> ('103c701a4dbfc88dbd699811a1bda6350f3c75f6', 'MIT Scheme')
20:22:39 <ehird> Okay, it's Scheme 48 vs Gauche vs Gambit now, I think.
20:22:59 <ais523> ehird: didn't you reccommend Chicken to me a while back?
20:23:04 <ais523> I even installed it, although I never used it
20:23:20 <fizzie> Chicken seemed to have a nice amount of eggs for it.
20:23:57 <ais523> and wow, are people still watching asiekierka's desktop?
20:24:02 <ehird> Yes, unfortunately Chicken has several annoying points to it
20:24:05 <ehird> no hygenic macros by default, no bignums by default
20:24:14 <ehird> and mostly eggs instead of srfis
20:24:19 <ais523> can you undefault that?
20:24:37 <ehird> but I'd prefer to just get an r5rs-compliant interp that used srfis
20:24:48 <ehird> also fast, preferably
20:27:43 <ehird> "Bridges are expected to stand up, and on the “first try,” even! Planes are expected to stay aloft. And yet programmers seem to be content with forever competing in the engineering version of the Special Olympics, where different, “special” standards apply and products are not expected to actually do what they say on the box - at any rate, the idea of offering a legal warranty of proper function (or even of not causing utter disaster, in the mann
20:27:45 <ehird> er customary in every other industry) for a software product is seen as preposterous."
20:27:47 <ehird> — http://www.loper-os.org/?p=37
20:29:14 <ais523> also, I've never seen oklopol spelt with a capital letter before
20:29:20 <ais523> there's something very wrong about that
20:29:30 <ais523> I have seen "Ais523" on occasion, but there's something very wrong about that too
20:30:13 <ais523> those initcaps things are spooking me
20:30:45 <ehird> irb(main):005:0> ["Gambit-C","Scheme 48","Gauche"].map {|x| [Digest::SHA1.hexdigest(x), x]}.sort[-1]
20:30:46 <ehird> => ["d8be759feff060354d1fd9cf4bd1a0a764f31a1e", "Gauche"]
20:30:52 <ehird> It is the highest form of Scheme, clearly.
20:31:11 <ehird> Hmm, Gambit has little SRFI support
20:31:26 <ehird> 48 seems to have, uh, none.
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20:31:51 <fizzie> If you're getting unsuitable results from your SHA hashes, just try alternative spellings.
20:32:34 <ehird> hmm, how do you print a regex match with awk
20:32:58 <ehird> % ls scheme48-1.8/scheme/srfi/srfi-*.scm | awk '/srfi-(.+?)\.scm/ {print $1}' | xargs echo isn't working
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20:33:09 <ehird> ais523_: % ls scheme48-1.8/scheme/srfi/srfi-*.scm | awk '/srfi-(.+?)\.scm/ {print $1}' | xargs echo
20:33:15 <ehird> do you know how to get that awk call working?
20:34:21 <ais523_> ehird: I don't actually know awk
20:34:25 <ais523_> I learnt sed and perl first
20:34:27 -!- ais523_ has changed nick to ais523.
20:34:31 <ais523> that reduces the incentive to learn awk
20:35:13 <ais523> all that meaning compressed into a few illegible characters
20:36:00 <fizzie> Also ls scheme48-1.8/scheme/srfi/srfi-*.scm | perl -ne 'print "$1\n" if /srfi-(.+?)\.scm/;'
20:39:39 <ehird> S48: 40 srfis, 1 11 13 13 14 16 17 19 2 25 26 27 28 37 39 4 40 42 43 45 5 60 61 63 66 67 7 71 74 78
20:39:39 <ehird> Gambit: 11 srfis, 0 4 6 8 9 18 21 22 23 27 39
20:39:41 <ehird> Gauche: 40 srfis, 0 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 13 14 16 17 18 19 22 23 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 42 43 45 55 61 62 87
20:39:57 <ehird> ais523: scheme request for implementation
20:40:02 <ehird> scheme extension library standards, pretty much
20:40:07 <ehird> http://srfi.schemers.org/
20:40:32 <ehird> If every implementation supported lots of SRFIs, beautiful portable Scheme code would be possible.
20:40:38 <ehird> And that if is way too hopeful.
20:40:47 <ehird> Most just invent their own shit to solve a problem.
20:40:52 <fizzie> ehird: If you *want* the awk, you can uglily do it with: | awk 'if (match($0, /srfi-(.+?)\.scm/, a)) print a[1]; }'
20:41:34 <fizzie> It seems a bit silly that you can't get to the matched parentheses in the line-select-o-tron.
20:42:44 <ehird> also, has this corewar prorgam been made? I call it the "Imp-O-Matic" (hur hur)
20:42:56 <ehird> that move so they don't clash with the other imps
20:43:03 <ais523> probably not, how would it win?
20:43:03 <ais523> or probably and it didn't win
20:43:16 <ehird> ais523: it'd be just like an imp, except N times faster
20:43:33 <ais523> yes, people don't use imps as their only strategy because that would be stupid
20:43:40 <ais523> imp-spirals are more common, as they actually have a way to win
20:43:50 <ehird> I'm talking basically for the nano hill
20:43:53 <ehird> so you only have 5 instructions
20:43:58 <ais523> corewar isn't about surviving, it's about winning
20:44:11 <ais523> you don't want to write a survivable program that forces the opponent to run your own survivable program
20:44:11 <ehird> you can climb the hill without winning I believe
20:44:13 <ais523> which is what an imp does
20:44:25 <ais523> then you lose every match
20:44:31 <ais523> because you draw most and lose a few at random
20:47:06 <ehird> anyway, I'm discounting Gambit
20:47:09 <ehird> S48: 40 srfis, 1 11 13 13 14 16 17 19 2 25 26 27 28 37 39 4 40 42 43 45 5 60 61 63 66 67 7 71 74 78
20:47:10 <ehird> Gauche: 40 srfis, 0 1 2 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 13 14 16 17 18 19 22 23 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 42 43 45 55 61 62 87
20:47:17 <ehird> pretty much equal, Gauche's srfis look a bit more useful though
20:50:33 <ais523> as for my Enigma level, I'm surprised that nobody looked up an online strategy guide or anything like that
20:50:35 <ais523> nobody will have written one for the level in particular
20:50:39 <ais523> but the game it models is well-known
20:51:57 <ais523> I'll play you if you like
20:52:07 <ais523> (that's a won position for you if you play well)
20:52:25 <ehird> what's it called, and what's that format
20:52:32 <ais523> the format's the number of blocks in each group
20:52:39 <ais523> so you can reduce any of the numbers, but only one number, on your turn
20:52:42 <ais523> and if you make it 0 0 0 you lose
20:52:58 <ais523> and I win now, because the position's symmetrical
20:53:01 <fungot> nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim nim ...too much output!
20:53:12 <ais523> I can win just by copying what you do
20:53:12 <ais523> that's one of the first losses you learn to avoid
20:53:26 <ais523> yep, oerjan knows what it's called
20:53:32 <MizardX> ^ul (nim)()(a~a*~a*^:S( )S:a~a*~a*^*a~a*~a*^:^):^
20:53:33 <fungot> nim nim nimnim nimnimnim nimnimnimnimnim nimnimnimnimnimnimnimnim nimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnim nimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnim nimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnim nimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnimnim ...too much output!
20:53:36 <ais523> but there's another game called nim which isn't as good, I prefer this nim
20:53:40 <ehird> 19:52 ehird: 11 11 10
20:53:40 <ehird> 19:52 ais523: 11 11 0
20:53:45 <Slereah> ^ul (nom)()(a~a*~a*^:S( )S:a~a*~a*^*a~a*~a*^:^):^
20:53:45 <fungot> nom nom nomnom nomnomnom nomnomnomnomnom nomnomnomnomnomnomnomnom nomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnom nomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnom nomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnom nomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnomnom ...too much output!
20:53:46 <ehird> you can reduce it any amount
20:53:55 <ehird> can I retry my move?
20:54:15 <oerjan> ais523: you mean misere nim, i take
20:54:37 <oerjan> (yours that is, the other being standard play)
20:54:58 <oerjan> although they are equivalent for all except the endgame
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20:55:47 <ehird> Scheme of the process of writing in the Scheme, eval and techniques without the use of foul, C is easier than writing. I know that comfort is INPURIMENTETA Scheme, C, even if in the process of writing, the only remaining primitive minimum C must be written in the Scheme at any cost ... the temptation to get motivated.
20:55:52 <ehird> i love japanese translations
21:01:15 <ehird> 19:58 ehird: Which is generally preferred as a general use scheme: Gauche or 48?
21:01:15 <ehird> 19:59 Riastradh: Personally I prefer Scheme48 for admiral use, but I don't know about generals.
21:01:47 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:01:59 <ais523> [19:54] <ais523> oerjan: are you any good at nim, by the way?
21:02:15 <oerjan> ais523: i know the winning strategy
21:02:44 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what
21:02:50 <ais523> it's more fun if you don't let people know that the game has been solved when you teach them it, though
21:02:54 <ais523> and teach them bits of strategy
21:03:01 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ah, rite
21:03:13 <ehird> ais523: I was planning on writing a bot that brute-forces it, then seeing what patterns it takes to write an intelligent solver
21:03:27 <ais523> like "don't let the opponent get 1-2-3" and "don't let the opponent get x-x-0 for x>1"
21:03:59 <ais523> I not only know the strategy, but have also proved it correct, I was bored once
21:04:14 <ehird> problem solving is merely optimization :P
21:05:12 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: do you think using only one table and a couple of shifts would be faster?
21:05:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: not sure
21:05:24 <ehird> memory access is slow, isn't it?
21:05:30 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:05:34 <ehird> so a few shifts might be faster than accessing memory
21:05:36 <bsmntbombdood> well those tables are relatively small, the fit in cache
21:06:59 <ais523> memory access is very fast if it fits in the L1 cache, slow otherwise
21:08:21 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: bruteforcing the nim strategy?
21:09:01 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: read backlog
21:09:16 <ehird> he's fiddling with comex's morse, ais523
21:09:20 <ehird> IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN.
21:09:22 <ais523> it's what we were discussing for the last half-hour or so
21:09:28 <fizzie> Purely based on 26, I would've guessed the morse thing.
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21:11:30 <oerjan> morse contains more than the alphabet iirc
21:11:34 <ais523> oerjan: why don't you show ehird the solution to the Enigma puzzle I gave him, or at least the first move?
21:11:44 <ais523> oerjan: not in comex's problem it doesn't
21:11:48 <ehird> oerjan: it just does the alphabetical ones
21:12:17 <asiekierk> 1 9 1? I didn't play the Enigma Puzzle so i don't know
21:12:28 <ais523> asiekierk: 1 9 1 goes to 1 1 1, I win
21:12:33 <ais523> 1 9 8 is the correct move there
21:13:06 <oerjan> ais523: you said whoever makes 0 0 0 loses, right?
21:13:33 <ais523> but clearly you're going to win this one
21:13:44 <oerjan> so misere, it's a bit to remember at the end
21:14:12 <ais523> oerjan: I'll just resign this one, 1 0 4
21:14:18 <ais523> and you can trivially win from there
21:14:34 <oklopol> ais523: i solved your puzzle, was rather trivial once i actually tried, problem is the ai still gets jammed.
21:14:36 <ais523> what position should I start form?
21:14:39 <ehird> ais523: whatever you wish
21:14:43 <ehird> allow me to win though
21:14:45 <oerjan> asiekierk: 1 0 1 is for the other nim variant, where making 0 0 0 _wins_
21:14:47 <ehird> asiekierk: simple:
21:14:53 <ais523> that's a won position for you
21:14:53 <ehird> you can remove any amount from one column
21:14:59 <ehird> you want to make the other person get to 0
21:15:09 <ais523> oklopol: I'm not giving the exact puzzle there, so as to not spoil it
21:15:26 <ais523> asiekierk: on your turn, you can reduce any of the numbers by any amount, but have to reduce exactly one number
21:15:35 <ais523> if you make the position 0 0 0, you lose
21:15:59 <ais523> what's your next move?
21:16:01 <oklopol> ais523: could you fix the bug, i can't find a way not to get the ai jammed :P
21:16:05 <oklopol> well, i'll try a few times
21:16:13 <ais523> oklopol: the bug only appears if the AI tries to move in the lefthand column
21:16:18 <ais523> if you play the optimal strategy, it never does
21:16:22 <asiekierk> Lemme try, but I probably will suck at it
21:16:33 <ais523> yep, 0 0 1, and you lose
21:16:43 <ais523> asiekierk: I played 0 0 1
21:16:48 <ais523> thus forcing ehird to play 0 0 0 and losing
21:16:57 <ais523> asiekierk: 3 5 7, your move
21:17:02 <oklopol> ais523: what does "optimal" mean?
21:17:09 <ais523> oklopol: the only strategy that wins
21:17:11 <oklopol> i'm using a winning strategy
21:17:21 <ais523> there is only one winning strategy, the way it's set up
21:17:30 <ais523> /msg me the moves you're using so I can check
21:17:33 <oklopol> i see. then there's probably an error somewhere in my derivation
21:17:36 <ais523> is it getting jammed in the lefthand column?
21:17:47 <oklopol> but i'll just try a few times
21:17:49 <ais523> it should never be moving there
21:17:57 <ais523> except possibly on the very last turn
21:18:13 <ais523> asiekierk: where are you moving from there?
21:18:18 <ais523> incidentally, 3 3 0 is a winning position for me
21:18:20 <ais523> as I can just copy what you do
21:18:46 <ehird> 20:18 Riastradh: If you were more specific with your inquiry, more specific persons might reply more specifically.
21:18:55 <ehird> god, that guy doesn't have a stick up his ass, he has an ass up his ass.
21:20:55 <ais523> (1 2 3's a well-known winning position)
21:20:59 <ais523> I don't win yet, but it's inevitable
21:21:05 <asiekierk> Where are you taking all these positions from!?
21:21:14 <oklopol> ais523: i don't know the moves, they depend on what the ai does.
21:21:15 <MizardX> 3 3 0 -> (2 3 0 -> 2 2 0 -> (1 2 0 -> 1 0 0 -> 0 0 0 | 0 2 0 -> 0 1 0 -> 0 0 0) | 1 3 0 -> 1 0 0 -> 0 0 0 | 0 3 0 -> 0 1 0 -> 0 0 0)
21:21:19 <ais523> oklopol: the ai's deterministic
21:21:24 <ehird> http://www.cuil.com/search?q=Wolfram+Alpha
21:21:27 <asiekierk> 0 1 1, then you do 0 0 1 and I lose
21:21:27 <ehird> home yoghurt making
21:21:30 <oklopol> i'm not using any kind of cool strategy, i just manually brute-forced the whole game.
21:21:31 <ehird> ebony foot worship
21:21:51 <oerjan> oklopol: you manually the _whole_ game?
21:21:52 <asiekierk> Uh, I must make a version of that game for the DS
21:21:55 <oklopol> ais523: determinism help very much, i'm so going to deduce how it works.
21:22:00 <oklopol> oerjan: just enough to win that one
21:22:20 <ais523> ehird: Used Armoire's my favourite there
21:22:40 <asiekierk> Do you know any fun games like that?
21:22:59 <ais523> that we were just playing
21:23:05 <ais523> Kayles is related but a bit harder to represent over IRC
21:23:25 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/830u9/wolfram_alpha_is_coming_and_it_could_be_as/c083vsm
21:24:27 <oklopol> okay i agree with AnMaster on the game.
21:25:17 <oklopol> ais523: btw is that a trivial game? i didn't read the logs
21:25:45 <ais523> it's been solved, it's trivial for a computer (thus I wrote the perfect AI), but not quite that trivial for a human to do the calculations in their head
21:25:54 <oklopol> my solution is not in any way mathematically beautiful, although subsolutions are, didn't see a reason to find a complete theory because i already found out enough to beat it
21:26:32 <ais523> ehird: that comment is a joke, I think
21:26:45 <oklopol> and i'm not going to show it to you before i know it works.
21:27:01 <ais523> although those answers are the sort of thing it would come up with, I think the commentor went out of the way to come up with silly answers
21:27:52 <oklopol> ais523: i have a few rules for what states are win and what are lose, if i have errors, they must be pretty consistent, because all the states before it jams are wins.
21:27:58 <asiekierk> ais523: In what did you write the perfect AI
21:28:00 <oerjan> ehird: from briefly browsing the beginning of what the linked article said, the actual alpha won't be released until may
21:28:07 <ehird> http://www.theonion.com/content/news/al_gore_places_infant_son_in?utm_source=onion_rss_daily
21:28:07 <ais523> asiekierk: a random subset of Lua
21:28:27 <oklopol> ais523: maybe i could play you on priv?
21:28:43 <oerjan> ehird: you know what onion is, i hope, or are you going to ask if that's true as well? :D
21:30:33 <ais523> #esoteric have been wondering what it is for a while
21:30:38 <psygnisfive> i read pieces of the press release but it all just sounds like fluff
21:30:43 <psygnisfive> with no actual explanation of what it does
21:30:52 <psygnisfive> blah blah blah revolutionary knowledge engine blah blah blah
21:30:59 <ehird> ais523 has tried it out, apparently it's good
21:31:06 <ehird> I think it's bullshit, like all of Wolfram's stuff
21:31:08 <ais523> the annoying thing is that I know what it is but aren't allowed to tell anyone
21:31:19 <ehird> GRAAAAH JUST TELL US ;__;
21:31:47 <fizzie> How would anyone know if you told us? You know, apart from the publicly accessible channel logs.
21:32:53 <ais523> fizzie: I don't care, I have morals
21:33:34 <ais523> agreed, I feel rather out of place
21:34:19 <oerjan> well by may it'll stand or fall on its own merit, regardless
21:34:35 <oerjan> i don't think mere hype can save such a project
21:34:59 <oerjan> no matter how good wolfram is at it
21:35:00 <ais523> if you want a piece of information, exactly once in the last two years have I wished that it existed publically
21:35:38 <fizzie> And that was in the context of "if it existed publically, those annoying #esoteric people would stop bugging me about it".
21:35:52 <ais523> I'll keep the context secret for now, because it's boring
21:36:47 <fizzie> To tell you the truth, I haven't noticed any talk about it here, so it can't be a very regular topic.
21:37:44 <oerjan> it's only a couple days since it showed up on reddit, isn't it?
21:38:08 <ais523> well, I've already seen the wolfram hype machine in action about the 2,3 thing
21:38:16 <oerjan> and was mentioned here, and that's the first i saw
21:38:40 <ais523> <Excilsploft> Could This be a Cuil killer?
21:38:41 <fizzie> It is a bit corny to have on wolframalpha.com an image of a text input control.
21:38:57 <oerjan> and i still haven't read the press release btw, in fact i think that's partially because of wolfram's hype notoriety
21:39:23 <ais523> the press release is unfortunately mostly meaningless
21:39:43 <comex> for i in xrange(5):
21:39:45 <comex> q = Slist([2, 3, 4, 5, 5]).filt(y == 5)
21:39:59 <ais523> comex: stop pasting Python over IRC, my client doesn't receive the indentation
21:40:04 <ais523> so I can't tell what the program does
21:40:20 <comex> Slist(somelist).filt(y == 5)
21:40:22 <comex> filters on |y| y == 5
21:40:29 <comex> without the need to type lambda
21:40:29 <oerjan> my client receives the indentation but displays it as inverted I's
21:40:31 <asiekierk> neither does mine but i don't know python
21:40:46 <comex> yes, I know, that's horrible
21:40:50 <oerjan> i guess i have the logical means, at least
21:40:56 <bsmntbombdood> that idiot who designed morse code really should have used prefix-free codes
21:41:12 <comex> it does this by using ctypes to modify the code of the calling function
21:41:12 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: that would have made it a lot slower
21:41:17 <comex> the first python macro, I guess :p
21:41:34 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: by reducing its compression ratio
21:41:52 <bsmntbombdood> ais523: you'd get rid of the waiting between symbols
21:42:02 <ais523> which is not very long for a skilled operator
21:42:05 <ais523> it's the same length as a dash
21:42:08 <oklopol> yeah, and also it's easier to learn to listen to it this way
21:42:17 <ais523> whereas the waiting between dots/dashes is the same length as a dot
21:42:30 <bsmntbombdood> and prefix free codes wouldn't make it longer than an extra dash
21:42:31 <oklopol> but that's a minor point ofc
21:42:35 <ais523> Morse Code is prefix-free, really
21:42:40 <ais523> you just have to realise it has four symbols not just two
21:42:55 <ais523> it communicates data both in the length the signal is on, and the length the signal is off
21:43:52 <fizzie> comex: Uh... if you just want to not type lambda, why not just use [y for y in [2, 3, 4, 5, 5] if y == 5]?
21:44:37 <kerlo> . . . . . . ... . . . ... . . ... ... ... . ... ... ... ... ... . ... . . ... . . ... . .
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21:45:14 <comex> fizzie: too verbose
21:45:18 <ais523> actually, speaking as an engineer, the main problem with morse code is that it isn't balanced
21:45:29 <ais523> it spends more time during dots and dashes then it does between them
21:45:43 <ais523> which means you need to use a sort of line to transmit it that can handle a net direct current
21:45:59 <ais523> (although by making e a single dot that problem's reduced to some extent)
21:46:27 <oklopol> what do you mean single dot
21:46:35 <ais523> isn't e "." in morse code?
21:46:38 <ais523> or have I messed that up?
21:46:39 <oklopol> the fact that it *is* a single dot
21:47:06 <ais523> yes, but more to the point, most frequent -> shorter than the gap between letters
21:47:16 <ais523> so you're letting the communication medium be a bit more negative to count out all the positives
21:47:45 <oklopol> oh that's what you were talking about
21:48:50 <ais523> the subtleties in communication codes are rarely apparent to people who haven't looked into them
21:49:21 <ais523> anyway, IIRC telegraphs used amplitude modulation of a carrier wave
21:49:41 <ais523> and that always cancels out negative/positive, so it wasn't a problem for them
21:50:05 * bsmntbombdood keeps forgetting that he wants to get a cw transceiver
21:50:21 <ais523> what does cw stand for in that?
21:50:56 <bsmntbombdood> morse code is transmitted by turning a constant tone on and off
21:51:18 <ais523> in my course they call it ASK
21:52:31 <ais523> well, ASK refers to sending digital data by turning a constant wave on and off
21:52:42 <ais523> so it's only more general in the sense that it doesn't have to refer to radio
21:52:48 <ais523> you could do ASK with a piece of string in theory
21:52:54 <ais523> maybe I should, it could be a fun experiment
21:53:20 <fizzie> Also in the sense that it might have more than two amplitude levels, according to wiggibedia. What you say is "called on-off keying".
21:53:55 <ais523> well, ok, although using more than two amplitude levels for ASK is relatively stupid because you may as well do QPSK if you're doing that
21:54:04 <ais523> or one of the multiple-level versions of QPSK
21:55:29 <oerjan> ASK or not ASK, that's the question
21:59:22 <fizzie> IR remote protocols are funny. At least those remotes I have here all encode the data by sending a train of fixed-length on/off pulses (of a 38 kHz carrier wave), with 0/1 bit encoded by the length of the pause between pulses; and then they send both the actual command and its complement, so that the total transmission length is constant.
21:59:56 <ais523> it reminds me of the secure smartcards they're making nowadays
22:00:08 <ais523> which are careful to never think a 0 without thinking a complementary 1 at the same time
22:00:18 <ais523> it seems that people were hacking into them by calculating their thoughts by measuring the power drain
22:00:28 <ais523> which is insane, I like it
22:00:47 <fizzie> Yes, and the crypto-people call that a "power attack", which is also funny.
22:02:11 <ais523> quantum encryption is 100% mathematically secure, but something like 8 side-channel attacks have been found against it
22:02:22 <bsmntbombdood> you think aes is secure? not if you have hostile code running in an untrusted proccess on your machine
22:02:45 <ais523> bsmntbombdood: hostile code running in a trusted process would be worse
22:03:00 <bsmntbombdood> that's the thing, it doesn't need to be a trusted process
22:03:22 <bsmntbombdood> because an untrusted proccess can recover your key
22:03:42 -!- Mony has quit ("Quit").
22:04:58 <fizzie> Oh, that one thing about getting CRT screen pictures by just measuring the general lightness level (through a curtain, or reflected off a wall) over time and then deconvolving with the impulse response of the CRT phosphors; that was also the awesome.
22:06:14 <ais523> fizzie: ok, that one is utterly awesome
22:06:33 <ais523> although I'm pretty surprised that deconvolution's that accurate
22:07:21 <fizzie> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ieee02-optical.pdf has some pictures.
22:07:56 <fizzie> And that one only works for CRT tubes, since it's about measuring diffusely-reflected light, not picking up the EM radiation like the Van Eck stuff. Although that's frightening too.
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22:19:11 <ehird> 21:01 bsmntbombdood: side-channel attacks are terrifying
22:19:19 <ehird> like "give us the key or I'll fuck you with this metal pole"
22:19:22 <ehird> that tends to work.
22:20:04 <oerjan> isn't that more behind-channel?
22:20:08 <ais523> luckily, that sort of side-channel attack, here in the UK, would probably receive media coverage
22:20:22 <ehird> ais523: yeah, criminals are universally caught.
22:20:37 <ehird> including the authorities using 'advanced interrogation techniques'. they're all in jail.
22:21:02 <ais523> ehird: I wouldn't say universally
22:21:07 <ais523> but it certainly makes you a lot easier to catch
22:21:18 <ais523> if you have to physically abduct the person you're trying to hack into the files of
22:21:25 <ais523> yes, hiding from the authorities is likely to be stupid
22:21:36 <ais523> the only thing you can do is elect people who'll try to respect your privacy, and that's basically impossible
22:21:43 <bsmntbombdood> they just have to park a van outside for a couple hours
22:22:10 <ehird> someone should make an anarchy party, whose goal is to 1) get elected, and then 2) disestablish all government
22:22:19 <ais523> I wouldn't vote for them
22:22:26 <ais523> I'd fear for my life if some people like that got elected
22:22:36 <ehird> ais523: Anarchy is fine if everyone is perfect
22:22:45 <ehird> but, well... they're not.
22:22:47 <ais523> ehird: there are a lot of imperfect people around, unfortunately
22:24:05 <ehird> hmm, gauche vs scheme48 is a hard question
22:24:26 <ais523> can you use the libraries from one with the other?
22:24:44 -!- akiross has quit ("Leaving").
22:25:03 <ais523> someone's been idling all this time, and jumps in just to say bye, and isn't Mony?
22:25:33 * Sgeo does that sometimes
22:25:59 <ehird> 21:24 ais523: can you use the libraries from one with the other?
22:26:02 <ehird> they're entirely unrelated interps.
22:26:09 <ais523> so, it depends on what the libs are written in
22:26:15 <ais523> if they're written in scheme, I wouldn't be surprised
22:26:20 <ehird> I'm not even talking about the libraries
22:26:21 <ais523> because they're both scheme interps
22:26:25 <ehird> that's utterly irrelevant to my current decision
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22:26:56 <ais523> it was you posting about the srfis higher up, presumably you've gone on to compare some other things now
22:27:06 <ais523> like the diameter of the steering wheel, or whatever </obscure reference>
22:27:14 <ehird> well, that was my first stage of comparison
22:27:21 <ehird> but they're both roughly on a level playing field as far as srfis go
22:27:29 <ehird> apparently gauche's interp is "hard to maintain"
22:27:35 <ehird> but it has nice stuff for scripting
22:27:41 * ais523 catches oerjan in a butterfly net -----\XXXX/
22:27:44 <oerjan> i felt we were on an "unexpected" flow here
22:28:08 <oerjan> that was certainly unexpected
22:28:22 <ais523> I was wondering what would beat a swatter at stone-paper-scissors
22:28:32 <ais523> and utterly failed to come to a decision, so I used a butterfly net instead
22:28:39 <ehird> what is it a reference to?
22:28:53 <ais523> there was an argument that James May was losing
22:28:54 <ehird> ah, I like top gear but I don't recall any such quote
22:29:03 <ais523> so he went around comparing utterly irrelevant features of the cars
22:29:11 <ais523> to find one that he won at
22:29:17 <Sgeo> http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/interesting.html
22:29:19 <ehird> one advantage of scheme48: It's not written by a japanese person with questionable English (well, ok, it's mostly fine but bits of awkwardness every now and then)
22:29:24 <Sgeo> http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1417302205?bctid=1419758473
22:33:31 <Sgeo> Same people also shrink coins. Why you'd want to do this I don't know
22:33:35 <Sgeo> http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames/OldQtr_R1.jpg
22:42:12 <ehird> Ah, Gauche fails some R5RS pitfall tests.
22:44:37 <ehird> http://sisc-scheme.org/r5rs_pitfall.php
22:44:45 <ehird> Horrible, evil Scheme code that is technically R5RS compliant.
22:46:16 <ais523> ((lambda lambda lambda) 'x)
22:46:21 <ais523> not the most evil thing there, but I love that line
22:46:46 <ehird> it should have been:
22:46:50 <ehird> ((lambda lambda lambda) '(mushroom mushroom))
22:47:09 <ais523> argh, that's the second badgerbadgerbadger reference that's been made today
22:47:18 <ais523> what is it with those references, the llama song was so much better
22:48:22 <ais523> sorry, should I have said "afk" instead? </protomeme>
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23:00:19 <ehird> gosh> (+ 1 +inf.0)
23:01:31 <ais523> why are repls called shells nowadays?
23:01:39 <ais523> I have a real shell for doing shell stuff
23:01:43 <ais523> let my repl do repling
23:01:45 <ehird> the first repls were shells.
23:01:53 <ehird> a shell IS an R.E.P.L.
23:02:00 <ais523> no, a shell's just a REL
23:02:04 <ais523> there's no printing involved
23:02:09 <ais523> unless you invoke a command that does the printing
23:02:10 <ehird> My shell informs me of the results of commands.
23:02:22 <SimonRC> ais523: depends on what you mean by "P"
23:02:22 <ais523> my commands inform me of the results of commands
23:02:34 <ais523> the shell just runs them, and connects them together in pretty unixy ways
23:02:46 <SimonRC> shells typically bing stdout to the same place shell messages go
23:03:04 <SimonRC> they are printing the result of the stream operations you specify
23:03:21 <ehird> ais523: you're just nitpicking
23:04:17 <ehird> Options: -h <heap-size> Maximum heap size in words (default 3000000).
23:04:17 <ehird> A heap size of 0 means the heap can grow
23:04:18 <ehird> unboundedly. This is dangerous because it can
23:04:20 <ehird> cause your system to run out of memory.
23:04:32 <ehird> WHAT MY COMPUTER MIGHT RUN OUT OF MEMORY OH LORD
23:05:38 <ais523> and setting resource limits is generally considered wise
23:05:53 <ehird> I know, but it's ridiculous, 1. my computer can do that for me 2. being subturing out of the box is just silly
23:06:26 <ais523> ehird: it's subturing anyway, your computer has finite memory
23:06:34 <ehird> that's not the implementation's fault
23:06:36 <ehird> Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)? y
23:06:38 <ehird> okay, you know what?
23:06:41 <ehird> you don't have to ask me that.
23:06:49 <ais523> also, asking on ^D? does that even make sense?
23:06:56 <ais523> you can't have a y after end-of-file to say yes
23:07:06 <oerjan> it's just a subturfuge
23:07:08 <ais523> so it has to open a whole new file just to prompt you
23:07:10 <ehird> Sometimes I wonder if you actually use a computer
23:07:18 <ehird> it is trivial to trap ^D
23:07:25 <ehird> this repl has no line editing, and it does that
23:07:28 <ais523> ehird: only in an interactive environment
23:07:34 <ehird> this is an interactive environment
23:07:47 <ais523> and I know it can treat interactive and noninteractive differently
23:07:50 <ehird> if it wasn't, it wouldn't prompt.
23:07:58 <ais523> but IMO, things are neater if it treats everything the same
23:08:08 <ehird> neater as in less user friendly, yes.
23:08:25 <ais523> ehird: neater as in more user friendly, I prefer things to act predictably
23:11:03 <Sgeo> Am I the only one here who fantasizes about Croquet being as popular and well supported as SL?
23:11:19 <ehird> you're certainly the only one here who uses words like "fantazised" for things like that
23:12:21 * ehird allocates 100000000 cons cells.
23:12:24 <ais523> Sgeo: croquet was around long before second life was, they're rather different though
23:12:39 <ehird> ais523: er, croquet = 2007
23:12:46 <ehird> was the actual release
23:12:48 <ais523> ehird: no, croquet was around in victorian times
23:13:06 <ais523> it's not even meant to be a pun or misunderstanding
23:13:12 <ais523> you can't just steal common words like that
23:13:12 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croquet_project
23:13:24 <ehird> ais523: I agree -- unix stole eunuchs
23:13:28 <ais523> I'm still annoyed at Microsoft for using "Windows" as the main meme-name of an OS
23:13:29 <ehird> How horrid of them
23:13:37 <ais523> and no, those are pretty clearly different words
23:13:43 <ehird> same pronounciation.
23:15:16 <ais523> not really, I actually pronounce the I in UNIX as an I, although I'm aware that's not the "standard" pronunciation
23:15:27 <ehird> Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)?
23:15:27 <ehird> I'll only ask another 100 times.
23:15:28 <ehird> Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)? Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)? Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)? Exit Scheme 48 (y/n)?
23:15:37 <ehird> It does not like rlwrap.
23:16:20 <ais523> ehird: well, you seem to be making my points for me, just more effectively
23:16:41 <ehird> ais523: "Scheme 48's REPL is buggy" != "your points are correct"
23:16:45 <ehird> It's buggy for entirely different reasons
23:17:01 <ehird> "Scheme 48 uses a copying garbage collector."
23:17:08 <ehird> That would be why it is using 2GB of ram, when I only consed up 1.
23:17:24 <ais523> lots of implementations use copying garbage collectors, they can be very fast
23:17:33 <ais523> OCaml does for some things, IIRC
23:17:44 <ais523> just an explanation of why double memory would be desirable
23:18:11 <ehird> Before: 22039 out of 231330816 words available
23:18:12 <ehird> After: 589056 out of 1937408 words available
23:18:16 <ehird> Of course, the issue is that it doesn't shrink the heap./
23:18:23 <ehird> (I started with -h 0, which means "expand heap to fit program".)
23:18:34 <ehird> So it'll use 2GB until I kill it, even though there's not many objects floating around.
23:18:36 <ais523> nearly everything doesn't shrink the heap
23:18:53 <ais523> even malloc()/free() doesn't normally with most implementations, you have to jump through hoops to get heap shrinkage to work
23:19:03 <ehird> oh, that's not what I mean
23:19:13 <ais523> what do you mean then?
23:19:15 <ehird> if you malloc 2gb then free it, the memory counter in Activity Monitor goes down, and the memory is returned to the OS
23:19:20 <ehird> in scheme 48, if you cons 2gb
23:19:25 <oerjan> ehird: there is a theory that gc'ed memory can be faster than manually allocated memory, but only if you use much more memory than you actually need
23:19:28 <ehird> it still uses 2gb of memory
23:19:30 <SimonRC> as long as memory isn't too fragmented, paging will let you ignore the vast tracts of currently-free space
23:19:31 <ehird> you can never shrink it
23:19:34 <ais523> most implementations of free don't return to the OS, but to that process's malloc
23:19:46 <ais523> after all, if you're still keeping something allocated near the end of memory
23:19:48 <ehird> oerjan: I support the theory, except without your annotation
23:20:02 <ehird> Not using a gc is always a bug...
23:20:24 <SimonRC> ehird: or some form of compiler-checked allocation
23:20:26 <oerjan> ehird: i am just pointing that it can be about trading memory for speed
23:20:31 <SimonRC> one which gc is only one sort
23:20:38 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
23:20:54 <ais523> wow, I've just had an insane idea, which wouldn't work for most programs but would be very eso on the ones it did
23:20:55 <SimonRC> hmm... if a copying GC uses twice the space that is within objects, that rather suggests it is a non-generational copying GC. Ouch.
23:20:59 <ais523> static analysis of memory allocation
23:21:08 <ais523> you just figure out all the mallocs at compile time
23:21:18 <ais523> and replace them with offsets into a fixed data structure
23:21:19 <SimonRC> ais523: that is standard in Avionics
23:21:36 <SimonRC> accoding to my dad, at least, and he should know
23:21:44 <ais523> sounds great, and it would actually be appropriate there
23:21:51 <ehird> http://pastie.org/411167 <- my tseting procedure
23:21:54 <ehird> now to try it in gauche
23:22:00 <ais523> let's do it in something it's utterly unsuited for, like a compiler
23:22:12 <SimonRC> in fact, it is usual for small/hard real-time embedded systems
23:22:25 <ais523> ehird: ITYM http://rafb.net/p/4g4iA738.html
23:22:25 <SimonRC> also, COBOL uses static allocation
23:22:38 <SimonRC> forth tends to for a lot of things too
23:22:51 <ehird> OK, 1.35GB being used
23:23:07 <ais523> hmm... this reminds me of the thread on clc of someone who was translating C into C#
23:23:09 <ehird> aaaand it's still using 1.35GB
23:23:14 <ais523> and wanted to know what to translate free() into
23:23:26 <SimonRC> and there has been some research into "region inference", to make Ocaml programs' allocation more efficient
23:23:46 <ehird> GC works fine in practice
23:23:59 <ais523> the solution's to assign C#'s version of null to whatever you were trying to free, so it can be garbage-collected
23:24:07 <SimonRC> ehird: unless a 100us delay is deadly
23:24:13 <ehird> a version of c's {} that applies to allocations within would be a huge boon for that
23:24:21 <ais523> but no individual usenet newsgroup's likely to give a good answer due to topicality problems
23:24:37 <ais523> SimonRC: wow, microseconds? that's quite a lot
23:24:39 <ehird> mem{ int *a = local_alloc(1gb); do stuff with a; }
23:24:45 <ehird> at the end of the block, *a is freed
23:24:46 <ais523> when working with VHDL a lot you tend to think in nanoseconds
23:24:51 <ais523> likewise with asm on modern processes
23:24:53 <ehird> as well as any other local allocations on the local allocation stack at the time
23:25:27 <SimonRC> ehird: they're called auto variables.
23:25:30 <ais523> VHDL handles picoseconds too, but that's only really useful if you're trying to model individual transistors in the processor rather than just writing down how they behave
23:25:34 <ehird> C doesn't have them, does it?
23:25:43 <SimonRC> or "stack allocated" in colloquial C++
23:25:44 <ais523> but they're only in C99
23:25:48 <ehird> sure, that's stack allocated
23:25:52 <ehird> good luck fitting 1gb on to the stack
23:25:58 <ehird> i'm talking about scoped heap allocation
23:26:02 <ais523> in theory, they don't have to be stack allocated
23:26:05 <Sgeo> Cobalt is alpha
23:26:07 <ais523> nothing in the C standard says they are
23:26:15 <Sgeo> And I think Cobalt is basically what I want
23:26:16 <ais523> just most implementors do them like that because they're lazy
23:26:26 <ais523> also, what makes you think the heap is bigger than the stack?
23:26:39 <SimonRC> c++'s destructors allow heap-allocated stuff to have a lifetime as if it lives on the stack
23:26:40 * ais523 grew up on DOS, where in some memory models they're equal
23:27:03 <ehird> you keep saying c++
23:27:20 <ais523> after all, C++ was designed to add lots of features missing from C
23:27:26 <ehird> because if a 100us delay is deadly, you shouldn't be using anything but asm and cx
23:27:28 <ais523> some of them were subsequently backported
23:27:37 * ais523 suddenly realises why ehird hates C99 so much
23:27:48 <ais523> ehird: C++ is no slower than C if you don't make use of its slower features
23:27:52 <ehird> SimonRC: for a start, you shouldn't even use C++
23:28:01 <ais523> ehird: that's quite a strong statement!
23:28:04 <ehird> and, ais523 too, if you don't use any fancy c++ features why are you using c++?
23:28:09 <ais523> although I haven't used it for much recently
23:28:13 <ais523> ehird: to use its faster features?
23:28:21 <SimonRC> ais523: indeed, they are designed to be zero-overhead
23:28:43 <ehird> I find http://www.uni-koblenz.de/~vladimir/breviary/fake.txt to be a more reliable account of C++ than just about anything else
23:29:18 <ais523> ehird: const char* string constants is a big incompatible improvement, for instance
23:29:31 <Sgeo> ehird, I'm taking a C++ class
23:29:45 <ehird> ais523: I am fairly sure this is valid C89: {const char *foo = "butts";}
23:29:51 <ehird> Sgeo: that's nice.
23:30:12 <ais523> ehird: yes, it is I think
23:30:16 <ais523> but you have to do it explicitly
23:30:26 <ais523> C++ will warn you if you write {char *foo = "butts";}
23:30:34 <ehird> I'm sure you can get gcc to warn you about that.
23:30:53 <ais523> but, it gives too many warnings
23:31:06 <ais523> because libraries written in C normally expect char* strings
23:31:22 <ais523> and you can't pass a const char* string into a char*-expecting function without unsafe casts
23:31:35 <ais523> in C++, because nothing can mess up constness like that, the libraries don't
23:32:41 <fizzie> -Wwrite-strings: "When compiling C, give string constants the type 'const char[LENGTH]' -- These warnings will help you -- but only if you have been very careful about using 'const' in declarations and prototypes. Otherwise, it will just be a nuisance; this is why we did not make '-Wall' request these warnings."
23:32:51 <ais523> also, the half-meg hello worlds just come from streaming overhead, you don't need heavyweight streams for something as simple as that
23:33:02 <ais523> in gcc-bf, I get annoyed at stdio overhead for something like a hello world
23:33:17 <ais523> fizzie: the problem's not so much about code you write yourself, which you can change
23:33:27 <ais523> but the code everyone else wrote that you have to link to
23:33:53 <fizzie> Sure, but that's what the manual says. They could've mentioned "char *"y library functions.
23:34:08 <ehird> ;;; -*-Emacs-Lisp-*- cmulisp.el
23:34:08 <ehird> ;;; Copyright Olin Shivers (1988).
23:34:09 <ehird> ;;; Please imagine a long, tedious, legalistic 5-page gnu-style copyright
23:34:12 <ehird> ;;; notice appearing here to the effect that you may use this code any
23:34:14 <ehird> ;;; way you like, as long as you don't charge money for it, remove this
23:34:16 <ehird> ;;; notice, or hold me liable for its results.
23:34:18 <ehird> That's one ballsy license.
23:34:50 <ais523> well, most standard libraries like the glibc headers have been fixed, now, but third-party libraries are a problem
23:34:55 <ais523> ehird: the amazing thing is, it would probably work
23:35:08 <ais523> he didn't explicitly grant any licence priveliges at all, so someone who breaks it can be sued
23:35:26 <ais523> if someone uses it as described there, though, and he tries to sue them, he won't get a payout due to estoppel
23:35:51 <fizzie> "estoppel" sounds like someone's nick.
23:35:54 <ais523> probably most companies wouldn't dare use code with a licence as vague as that, but AFAICT it works
23:36:05 <ehird> It's bundled with scheme48
23:36:08 <ais523> [Notice] -NickServ- estoppel is not registered.
23:36:17 -!- ehird has changed nick to estoppel.
23:36:38 <fizzie> I may have been thinking of Aardappel.
23:36:42 <oerjan> why the sudden psygnisfive channeling?
23:37:41 <ais523> estoppel: I've read that link, and it appears to be some sort of joke?
23:37:56 <estoppel> wow, that was blindingly obvious
23:38:03 <ais523> sorry, but if you're channeling psygnisfive, I want to channel AnMaster
23:38:03 <estoppel> how on earth can you miss the fact that that was a joke?
23:38:15 <ais523> and I didn't, although I'm disappointed you didn't spot the metajoke
23:38:21 <estoppel> "Bitches. I don't say bitches."
23:38:39 <SimonRC> this internet connection sucks; I'm going to bed
23:38:51 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokoko
23:38:55 <oerjan> okokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:38:57 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:00 <oerjan> okokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:02 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:06 <oerjan> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:08 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:10 <oerjan> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:12 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:15 <oerjan> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:17 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:20 <oerjan> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:22 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:26 <oerjan> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:27 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:28 <Sgeo> kokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:30 <oerjan> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:39:32 <psygnisfive> estoppel, surely you have a bot we can loop to kill this shit
23:39:33 <ais523> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
23:40:09 <oerjan> and it was such a perfect channeling :´(
23:40:34 <oklopol> an oklopol worth listening to
23:40:38 * oerjan swats estoppel -----###
23:40:45 <ais523> estoppel: you deserve to be banned for life from here for getting annoyed at oklopol okoing
23:40:47 <oerjan> and everyone is back to their own selves
23:40:52 * Sgeo swats the swatter -----###
23:40:56 <estoppel> ais523: he is exempt from the rules.
23:41:09 <oklopol> estoppel: heh thanks for linking the c++ interview, always brings a smile on my face
23:41:14 * ais523 waves a butterfly net vaguely in the direction of everyone -----\XXXXX/
23:41:24 <estoppel> oklopol: don't you mean "unto my face"
23:41:31 -!- Jophish has quit (Connection timed out).
23:42:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:42:23 <fizzie> Is FQA "frequently questioned answers", or what?
23:42:33 <ais523> yes, frequently questioned answers
23:44:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
23:45:25 <ais523> hmm... the FQA's annoyances with C++ seem to stem around the fact that it isn't a properly OO language
23:45:43 <ais523> using C++ as a not-quite-C language, though, it's quite good
23:45:59 <ais523> and being me, I see an undecidable grammar as an advantage not a disadvantage
23:46:14 <ais523> / don't read this, it's impossible. just count the lines
23:46:20 <ais523> heh, I like that comment
23:46:27 <ais523> there should have been two slashes, but copy/paste fail
23:47:16 <estoppel> ((lambda (lambda) (lambda lambda)) (lambda (lambda) (lambda lambda))
23:47:37 <estoppel> it's hip just to say the yo dawg nowadays
23:47:57 <ais523> estoppel: "duuuuuuuuuude"? are you channelling mezzacotta?
23:48:15 <oerjan> he's not a dude, he's a dudette
23:48:23 <AnMaster> <ais523> sorry, but if you're channeling psygnisfive, I want to channel AnMaster
23:48:37 <AnMaster> <ais523> but, it gives too many warnings
23:48:45 * oerjan swats AnMaster and psygnisfive -----###
23:49:01 <estoppel> I'm channeling the basic essence of AnMaster.
23:49:16 * oerjan swats psygnisfive on his bare bottom -----###
23:49:23 <kerlo> Is that you, ehird?
23:49:31 <ais523> kerlo: yes, it's ehird
23:49:31 <estoppel> I am a ninja from outer space.
23:49:32 <oklopol> ais523: heh, you do a great AnMaster
23:49:58 -!- estoppel has left (?).
23:50:32 <oklopol> estoppel was estopped :DDDDDDDDDDDD
23:50:40 <AnMaster> had to remount / readonly and do reboot -f
23:50:51 <AnMaster> because the vm thingy was locked up in kernel
23:51:23 <fizzie> Compiling an OpenVZ-patched kernel gave me warnings like net/ipv4/route.c:2922:2: warning: #warning "Rework this shit via ro net sysctls"
23:51:29 <fizzie> That was not very confidence-inspiring.
23:51:51 <AnMaster> ais523, I have no idea why/what happened
23:51:57 <AnMaster> but also I'm glad it is multi core
23:52:00 <ais523> also, the remounting / readonly, did you do it via magic SysRq, and if not, why not?
23:52:07 <AnMaster> root 20042 99.9 0.0 0 0 ? R 17:21 15:02 [vzmond/200]
23:52:23 <fizzie> [2009-02-25 09:29:50] <fizzie> Also some sort of vzmond kernel thread had gotten hung up during the night. :p
23:52:24 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, your computer was still responding?
23:52:27 -!- estoppel has joined.
23:52:29 <fizzie> You're not the only one here.
23:52:37 <AnMaster> <fizzie> [2009-02-25 09:29:50] <fizzie> Also some sort of vzmond kernel thread had gotten hung up during the night. :p <-- ?
23:52:41 * oerjan notes something estarting
23:52:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, so how do I avoid this
23:52:49 <fizzie> AnMaster: Wasn't on this channel, I mean.
23:52:57 <fizzie> AnMaster: Who knows? I just started to use linux-vserver instead.
23:53:00 <estoppel> "Rework this shit via ro net sysctls"
23:53:06 <estoppel> that sounds like the start of a nerdcore rap.
23:53:11 <AnMaster> <ais523> also, the remounting / readonly, did you do it via magic SysRq, and if not, why not? <-- not because I only have ssh access
23:53:21 <ais523> well, that's a good reason
23:53:26 <ais523> an annoyingly good reason
23:53:33 <ais523> I like magic SysRq too much...
23:53:43 <estoppel> sysrq is hot, I wish I had a sysrq key
23:53:43 * oerjan suddenly realizes there must exist such a thing as nerdcore rap
23:53:54 <AnMaster> estoppel, doesn't every keyboard?
23:54:06 <ais523> estoppel: SysRq was originally invented because back then it was believed a multitasking operating system would be impossible without it
23:54:14 <ais523> but rather than use it for its intended purpose
23:54:28 <ais523> all sorts of things like alt-tab and control-alt-delete were used instead
23:54:38 <ais523> AnMaster: so that applications could use all the keys on the keyboard for what they wanted
23:54:48 <ais523> you'd need a special key that the applications didn't use to switch between them
23:55:15 <ais523> AFAIK, Linux is the only OS that actually uses SysRq for its intended meaning of "do something directly to the kernel without applications interfering"
23:55:17 <estoppel> http://www.monzy.com/intro/drama_lyrics.html
23:55:21 <estoppel> "Your problem, Plus Plus, is that your typing isn't strict:
23:55:21 <estoppel> In ML my type is real and your type is 'a dict."
23:55:25 <ais523> for instance Alt-SysRq-K is the secure attention key
23:55:46 <ais523> whereas windows uses control-alt-del for that
23:55:47 <AnMaster> ais523, it is an useful debug key yes
23:55:59 <ais523> in fact it multiplexes all the direct-kernel functions onto control-alt-del
23:56:08 <ais523> which is kind of ridiculous for something that's that hard to type with one hand
23:56:20 <ais523> although admittedly sysrq isn't much easier
23:56:26 <ais523> you don't have to use it as much, though
23:56:33 <ais523> only in an emergency, and on login if you're really paranoid
23:56:35 <AnMaster> this ultrathin keyboard layout is ridiculou
23:56:58 <estoppel> heh, I'm planning on replacing this keyboard with an ultrathin one
23:56:59 <AnMaster> PgUp is located just right of space
23:57:10 <estoppel> http://images.apple.com/euro/keyboard/scripts/gallery/wireless_1_20070813.jpg
23:57:23 <ais523> (did anyone else here know that if you type Alt-SysRq-K at something that looks like a login screen on Linux, it kills all processes that might intercept your typing so you know you're typing at a real login prompt rather than a program pretending to be one?)
23:57:29 <estoppel> (don't click if you're using a pc-101 kb right now)
23:57:32 <estoppel> (you might have a heart attack)
23:57:33 <AnMaster> estoppel, it is also compact and smaller than full size
23:57:45 <ais523> I don't know if that works on graphical logins
23:57:50 <AnMaster> estoppel, this one at least has a numeric keyboard
23:57:53 <ais523> but the SAK is a neat security trick
23:57:59 <estoppel> AnMaster: you can get the wired version with a numpad
23:58:05 <estoppel> but my numpad usage is a bad habit
23:58:17 <AnMaster> just not where you expect them
23:58:25 <ais523> estoppel: I've seen one fo those before, the return key looks a bit small
23:58:35 <estoppel> my return key is that size on this one
23:58:40 <estoppel> it doesn't actually diminish tap-power
23:58:43 <AnMaster> return key should be two lines
23:58:43 <ais523> also, backslash is in an awful place
23:58:44 <estoppel> because it's hard to miss return anyway...
23:58:57 <estoppel> close to the home row when typing paths
23:59:11 <ais523> I don't like the colour scheme either, but then I don't like the colour scheme of this keyboard
23:59:40 <ais523> anyway, what self-respecting typist can do without ¬?
23:59:57 <ais523> (the standard 101-key layout has all the printable characters in ASCII but also all the printable characters in EBCDIC)