00:00:07 <ehird> Upon execution, reads one char from the terminal (as soon as you hit it) and outputs a number of as corresponding to its ascii code.
00:00:15 <AnMaster> ehird, that looks like a Japanese smiley on steroids
00:00:36 <ais523> well, ^A is a smiley face in IBM-extended
00:01:13 <ehird> because you continued :P
00:01:23 <ehird> network lag, heard of it?
00:01:31 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, you haven't though
00:01:41 <AnMaster> you could have seen that it was close enough to have lag risk
00:02:06 <ehird> TECO "Lock screen" mode: <>$$ (Password is Ctrl-C)
00:02:42 <ehird> Clears screen indefinitely.
00:02:50 <ehird> i.e. outputs infinite newlines.
00:03:58 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you escape an escape char?
00:04:09 <ehird> Use a different delimiter
00:04:36 <AnMaster> ehird, any way to include every char in a string?
00:04:48 <ehird> Do it as two strings.
00:05:10 <ehird> Well, there's no contact.
00:05:15 <ehird> Just do @I/.../ @I!/!
00:05:54 <ehird> TECO uses " as open loop and ' as end loop
00:06:07 <ehird> ais523: you should put that in intercal
00:06:22 <ais523> ehird: the comparison to INTERCAL got me too
00:06:27 <ais523> AnMaster: that's never stopped it before
00:06:40 <AnMaster> ehird, also where is the guide to teco?
00:06:41 <ais523> ehird: you forgot about INTERCAL parens
00:06:46 <ehird> http://web.archive.org/web/20080207025702/http://zane.brouhaha.com/~healyzh/teco/TecoPocketGuide.html
00:06:50 <ehird> ais523: no, i was augmenting them
00:06:57 <ehird> AnMaster: & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_Editor_and_Corrector
00:07:05 <ais523> I don't /think/ it leads to an ambiguous grammar
00:07:09 <ehird> & playing around in the console of http://almy.us/teco.html
00:07:32 <AnMaster> ais523, since " *is* already ambig.
00:08:48 <ehird> anyway, I can't see myself using ed any more
00:10:12 <ais523> because you have TECO?
00:10:21 <ais523> AnMaster: not ambiguous, just requires infinite lookahead to parse correctly
00:11:25 <ehird> need to figure out how to write scripts and init files etc
00:14:23 <ehird> http://www.charleston.net/news/2009/mar/07/its_big_guy_vs_little_guy74198/
00:15:27 <ehird> ais523: do you have a teco there?
00:17:06 <ehird> incidentally, ! label ! doubles as a comment.
00:17:53 <ais523> ! is toggle-comment if your comments are unlabelly enough
00:17:57 <ehird> ugh, I have to put a file called TECO.INI in ~/ to get it to recognize it
00:18:44 <ehird> hfs+ is case insensitive
00:19:11 * AnMaster ponders adding that to cfunge:
00:19:22 <ehird> ?How can I MUNG nothing?
00:19:25 <ehird> that's a beautiful error
00:19:32 <ehird> in fact, all systems should respond to `mung` with that
00:19:42 <ehird> no matter if they have a TECO or not
00:20:04 <AnMaster> if (strcmp(programname,filename) != 0) { fputs("Cfunge is case sensitive for file names\n", stderr); exit(1); }
00:20:16 <ais523> ehird: what does mung do?
00:20:27 <ehird> AnMaster: "Cfunge"? how ironic.
00:20:36 <ehird> ais523: It MUNGs Until No Good. (Runs a TECO batch script.)
00:20:37 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. It was intentional
00:21:04 <ais523> what do you mean, case sensitive for file names?
00:21:28 <AnMaster> ais523, OS X will give you "foo.bf" when you request "FOO.bf"
00:21:41 <AnMaster> ais523, I planned to reverse that ;)
00:21:45 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-03] % tecoc make hello.tec
00:21:45 <ehird> *@I/^AHello, world!
00:21:48 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-03] % mung hello.tec
00:21:57 <ehird> AnMaster: it'll give FoO.bf if you had named it that
00:21:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> ais523: It MUNGs Until No Good. (Runs a TECO batch script.) <-- DON'T GIVE UP
00:22:14 <ehird> AnMaster: what about that snippet of intercal
00:22:27 <AnMaster> ehird, "until no good" sounded so intercal-y
00:22:35 <ehird> Copyright (C) 1979, 1985 TECO SIG
00:22:39 <ehird> AnMaster: http://almy.us/files/tecodoc.zip
00:22:57 * ehird makes a TECO shrine
00:23:04 <AnMaster> ehird, a listing says "Long filenames are supported"
00:23:16 <ehird> DOS long filenames
00:23:21 <ehird> The contents: "Yes, long file names are supported in this version of TECO!"
00:24:35 <AnMaster> ehird, if you go TECO I should go Genera. Have to get around testing it
00:24:49 <ehird> well, genera just uses an emacs-alike
00:25:02 <AnMaster> ehird, and emacs is teco lookalike?
00:25:30 <AnMaster> gnu emacs is quite far from it
00:25:52 <ehird> If you include unusual commands in your initialization file, you
00:25:52 <ehird> would be prudent to surround such commands with the ? command.
00:25:54 <ehird> This causes TECO to type the commands out when they are executed
00:25:56 <ehird> (see section 5.18.4). You should also print an informative
00:25:58 <ehird> message on the terminal reminding other users that this version
00:26:00 <ehird> of TECO has been customized.
00:26:02 <ehird> "You know, in case a burglar enters your house and starts teco."
00:26:27 <ehird> People using your terminal.
00:26:30 <ehird> Not uncommon in the 80s.
00:26:44 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't they have separate logins?
00:27:01 <ehird> Logging out and in would be a pain.
00:27:09 <ehird> Remember, really slow.
00:27:32 <AnMaster> which microsoft introduced as "new in XP" but Linux and other *nix had for ages before
00:27:53 <ais523> fast user switching is a ridiculous name for the term, anyway
00:27:59 <ais523> it's just the ability to have multiple graphical VTs
00:28:03 <ais523> logged in as different people
00:28:14 <ehird> tell that to john q public
00:28:23 <ais523> well, yes, it's all about the advertising
00:28:26 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. I used to use 2 graphical VTs ages ago
00:28:28 <ehird> fast user switching: you can switch between users without logging in and out
00:28:48 <ehird> universal binary ("dual-architechture Mach-O binary"): it works on powerpc and intel macs.
00:28:49 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I could do it on Linux for ages
00:28:56 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm talking about terminology with ais523
00:29:03 <ais523> now, that description really doesn't do it for the general public either
00:29:09 <ais523> the without logging in and out
00:29:12 <ais523> why would they want to do that?
00:29:13 <ehird> ais523: sure it does
00:29:17 <ais523> it just makes it harder to shut down the computer
00:29:25 <ais523> I know, I was with a couple of general public ages ago
00:29:28 <ehird> well, OS X has promoted multiple users from the start
00:29:31 <ais523> who were thinking about it
00:29:37 <ehird> so that's windows thinking, probably
00:29:43 <ais523> the problem was they were just hitting switch user not logout by mistake when they wanted to logout
00:29:46 <ais523> and yes, Windows thinking
00:29:48 <AnMaster> <ais523> it just makes it harder to shut down the computer <-- ?
00:29:55 <ehird> AnMaster: think about it from a user with one account
00:29:58 <AnMaster> 00:29:55 up 38 days, 9:44, 35 users, load average: 0.15, 0.17, 0.18
00:29:59 <ehird> log out just lets them
00:30:04 <ehird> why would they want to log out?
00:30:11 <AnMaster> why would they want to shutdown?
00:30:12 <ehird> (RHETORICAL QUESTION RHETORICAL QUESTION RHETORICAL QUESTION)
00:30:12 <ais523> they couldn't figure out what the difference was, or why they wouldn't want to log out to let someone else use the computer
00:30:19 <ais523> AnMaster: because of saving electricity, of course
00:30:24 <ais523> besides, it's bad to leave computers on overnight
00:30:34 <ais523> ehird: and switch user is even more useless on a single-person computer than log out
00:30:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well ok, most people don't run BOINC
00:30:48 <AnMaster> ais523, but what about suspend to disk
00:30:53 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah, that will be so useful when the planet dies out
00:30:58 <ais523> hibernate? only when they're in the middle of something
00:30:59 <ehird> more useless seti results!
00:31:07 <ehird> (ais523: I leave mine on standby overnight. All the startup speed, much less power usage.)
00:31:16 <AnMaster> ehird, no, I run folding at home
00:31:19 <ais523> ehird: I shut this down, but then, it's a laptop
00:31:25 <ehird> has folding at home got any real results yet?
00:31:30 <AnMaster> I used to run climateprediction
00:31:46 <AnMaster> ehird, not that I remember. But I don't check their website really
00:31:56 <ehird> AnMaster: also, why do you use a proprietary program, ey?
00:32:05 <ais523> anyway, recently one of them was complaining about not knowing how to move a file from a USB stick to a directory in Windows
00:32:14 <ais523> that confuses me, I thought it was a simple operation even in Windows...
00:32:21 <ehird> also, running BOINC overnight would be fucking crazy on this
00:32:26 <ais523> it seems they couldn't figure out how to open two graphical directory entries at once
00:32:29 <ehird> since the fans would spin to full speed due to 200% CPU usage
00:32:44 <ehird> (and in future (post upgrade), the _two_ fans will go bezerk due to 800% CPU usage...)
00:32:48 <ehird> (good luck sleeping through that!)
00:33:11 <AnMaster> ehird, my system has constant speed fans
00:33:34 <ehird> my system's fans are pretty much always either off or so low I can't hear them without trying
00:33:42 <ehird> I imagine a Mac Pro's fans are rather powerful
00:33:45 <AnMaster> + I sleep in a separate room due to two small rooms and not being able to fit desk and bed in same room
00:34:00 <ehird> does it occur to anyone that fans are kind of a hack solution to the "our hardware runs hot" problem? :D
00:34:21 <ehird> I don't think apple offers that
00:34:32 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc they did on some G5 iirc?
00:34:49 <ehird> not for years, though, then
00:34:51 <AnMaster> ehird, the 8 core Mac Pro G5 or something
00:35:09 <ehird> i've seen pictures of the new 8 core nahelem mac pro
00:35:19 <AnMaster> well the one I remember was definitely PPC
00:36:04 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: also, why do you use a proprietary program, ey? <-- so. What did you mean. boinc is open source
00:36:14 <ehird> wp says folding@home is propreitary
00:36:28 <ehird> oh, so that's how you solve dust in tower computers, blow them with compressed air
00:36:43 <AnMaster> ehird, err of course. what did you expect?
00:36:52 <ehird> i dunno, I just let my old tower get dusty :D
00:36:53 <AnMaster> and how did you solve it for your own computer?
00:37:11 <ehird> note, however, that this room is exceptionally dusty
00:37:13 <AnMaster> ehird, be careful or you will get a dust puppy. And since you _hate_ uf
00:37:23 <ehird> due to it being old and having tons and tons of crap I never touch covered with dust
00:37:28 <ehird> need to fix that sometime
00:37:31 <ais523> yep, compressed air's the usual way
00:37:54 <ehird> AnMaster: it's also a big room, I'd have to get a big ladder and everything and dig under all the shit and whatnot
00:38:04 <AnMaster> ais523, filters prolongs the period between cleaning
00:38:16 <comex> you're not the guy I would expect to deliver a shitjudgement due to not reading about the case
00:38:25 <AnMaster> ehird, don't you clean your room every now and then
00:38:37 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but it's near-impossible to clean every single bit of the room
00:38:41 <AnMaster> my parents forced me to clean a lot
00:38:43 <ehird> if you saw it you'd understand
00:38:52 <AnMaster> ehird, pic or it didn't happen
00:38:56 <ehird> hmm, an air filter ay?
00:39:06 <AnMaster> ehird, for computers? Yes a very good idea
00:39:09 <ehird> do they make much noise?
00:39:30 <AnMaster> you take them out and clean them every month or so
00:39:38 <AnMaster> well in a dusty room maybe more often
00:39:49 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. But lag made it arrive later
00:40:02 <AnMaster> <ehird> do they make much noise? <AnMaster> ehird, um. *passive filter* <AnMaster> you take them out and clean them every month or so <ehird> (^joke)
00:40:21 <AnMaster> <ehird> (^joke) <-- see <AnMaster> well in a dusty room maybe more often <AnMaster> ehird, yes. But lag made it arrive later
00:40:37 <ehird> My main strategy would be to remove all the rubbish I never use to somewhere.
00:40:41 <ehird> that would solve about 85% of the problem
00:41:11 <ehird> I'll give you a pic post-cleaning :P
00:41:23 <AnMaster> I want it when I'm still young
00:42:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I *have* been your age so I know the issue
00:42:37 <AnMaster> when you grow a bit older it will be paper. Lots of paper
00:42:52 <AnMaster> in your age it was iirc old lego technic and such
00:43:29 <AnMaster> dusty boxes with lego technic... around 13
00:43:41 <ehird> http://www.avforums.com/forums/computer-systems/56924-kramer-other-members-promoting-water-cooling-you-have-alot-answer.html <--- hahahahaha
00:43:50 <ehird> AnMaster: I think I grew out of lego and stuff when I was like 10
00:44:18 <AnMaster> ehird, also it depends on what lego. The Mindstorms thing that you can program in C lasts a bit longer
00:44:41 <ehird> haha, I like the suggestion further along that thread to put fish in the cooling
00:44:44 <AnMaster> also programming it in C is unsupported
00:44:53 <FireFly> Ah, that good ol' topic :D
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00:48:57 <ehird> hrmph, teco should read ~/.teco :(
00:49:32 <ehird> "I did wrap the power supply unit in cling film plastic wrap before I filled it with water"
00:49:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://www.avforums.com/forums/computer-systems/56924-kramer-other-members-promoting-water-cooling-you-have-alot-answer.html <--- hahahahaha <-- don't have time to read it all, is it a windup or not?
00:49:59 <ehird> i don't know, it's just funny either way
00:50:27 <FireFly> IIRC it is, but it took some pages until he told them
00:58:23 <ehird> AnMaster: that would be rather a fire hazard
00:58:46 <ehird> if you thrash the cpu a lot
00:59:05 <AnMaster> ehird, of course it would have to be dimensioned for the climate and load
00:59:22 <AnMaster> and possibly have a backup fan in if the worst come to the worst
01:00:27 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2007TaipeiITMonth_IntelOCLiveTest_Overclocking-6.jpg
01:00:30 <ehird> i like that picture.
01:00:47 <ehird> "OH IT IS RUNNING A BIT HOT WELL HER IS SOME LIQUID NITROGEN"
01:02:10 <AnMaster> ehird, why is part protected by a piece of fabric?
01:03:49 <ehird> you know, the fact that adding more cores gives better performance increases than piling on ghz hasn't registered in my brain yet
01:04:10 <ehird> its native comparison routine rates an old single-core 3ghz above 2 x quad-core 2.2ghz...
01:04:19 <ehird> so I have to emulate it in software instead :P
01:04:39 <ehird> brains need hot-swappable kernel updates
01:04:48 <ehird> like, we could give old fogeys society boosterpacks.
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01:06:38 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on task if more cores > better
01:06:50 <AnMaster> you hit a scalability limit at some point
01:07:09 <ehird> well, yes, but I think you'd agree that a 1 core 3ghz processor from 2006 is a lot worse in most cases than two quad-core 2.2ghz intel nehalems from november 2008
01:07:15 <ehird> where most means almost all
01:07:34 <AnMaster> yes. And even more so if the 1 core one is a Pentium 4
01:07:43 <AnMaster> ehird, but other stuff improved too
01:08:00 <AnMaster> like SSE4 or whatever we are at now
01:08:24 <ehird> it's just that my internal brain's cpu comparison routine is (a b -> compare(a.ghz, b.ghz))
01:08:28 <ehird> which is very broken :D
01:09:06 <ehird> good thing I don't have to perform that very often
01:09:09 <AnMaster> ehird, also my brain does it in mhz
01:09:20 <ehird> heh, my brain works at a granularity of X.Yghz
01:09:21 <AnMaster> then it realises that we hit 1 GHz ages ago
01:09:35 <ehird> 1ghz? my mom used that as a kid. :|
01:09:51 <AnMaster> and then it remembers mhz/ghz is a silly way to compare
01:10:05 <ehird> it was an exaggerationjoke.
01:10:24 <ehird> Back then the order of the day was FORTRAN and LISP on big mainframes and punchcards :P
01:10:50 <AnMaster> I mean, not mobile phones and such
01:11:06 <ehird> In 1998 I had a Windows 3.11 computer (yes, way obsolete at the time, parents were poor)
01:11:06 <AnMaster> or old system, but contemporary ones
01:11:12 <ehird> That was probably pre-ghz.
01:11:24 <ehird> It had a 15" non-flat CRT screen xD
01:11:27 <AnMaster> ehird, your parents got a lot more money now then. with you getting an upgrade soon
01:11:52 <ehird> and the Apple Tax makes it a bit of a stretch :-D
01:12:16 <ehird> apple tax = the purely insane amount of money apple adds on to the actual value of the hardware
01:12:18 <AnMaster> ehird, as someone living in UK you should prefer Acorn
01:12:25 <ehird> I used an Acorn PC in school!
01:12:37 <AnMaster> ehird, you know ARM is all that remains of Acorn
01:13:15 <AnMaster> ehird, there is always !Befunge for you on RISC OS
01:13:38 <AnMaster> well it used to be next best after ccbi
01:18:03 <ehird> the author updates his site regularly, it seems
01:18:09 <ehird> has Deewiant contacted him about updating !Befunge?
01:19:13 <AnMaster> ehird, he didn't contact Mike either
01:19:22 <ehird> i might contact him :)
01:19:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I often thought about it, but "meh"
01:19:54 <ehird> it'd be nice to have more competition
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02:53:19 <kerlo> Who's been using Unicode in here?
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04:26:47 * kerlo scribbles on a piece of paper
04:27:20 <kerlo> ehird's mom is probably 31 or older.
04:27:56 <kerlo> Therefore, she was only a kid at least seven years ago.
04:28:03 <kerlo> Are you giving me the probability of her being 31 or older?
04:29:03 <kerlo> For what n is the probability of her being n or older 50%?
04:30:58 <kerlo> My n is 41. Final answer.
04:31:03 <kerlo> So, let's fight to the death.
04:31:41 <kerlo> ehird, how old is your mom?
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05:07:21 <psygnisfive> or anyone else interested in delightful discoveries about fractals and such
05:09:43 <psygnisfive> take the bitwise logical operation of the gridline numbers (e.g. at the point (4,12) take, say, the bitwise nand of 4 and 12). if the result is 0, draw a circle on the point.
05:10:48 <psygnisfive> or if you're slick, code it up using a graphics API and see what results for decently sized space, say 512x512
05:14:31 <psygnisfive> i forget whether its if the result is 0, or below some value, or whatever. anyway, you get the idea.
05:23:32 -!- kerlo has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | ascii z.
05:23:35 -!- kerlo has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | ascii plz.
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08:00:27 <asiekierk> oh my god i'm going to build a mechanical tv probably
08:04:51 <pikhq> I suggest starting out somewhat easy...
08:05:11 <pikhq> Build a mechanical color adaptor. ;p
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08:20:25 <asiekierk> pikhq: As in, a color mechanical tv?
08:21:01 <asiekierk> Easy. Make a small color wheel, speed up the nipkow disc and make the color wheel spin too, make the proper image and BAM! CBS/Baird/Nipkow color TV!
08:25:08 <pikhq> Well, I was thinking color wheel disk for a standard B&W NTSC TV.
08:25:13 <pikhq> And yes, it has been done.
08:26:14 <asiekierk> Even NTSC for NBTV has been done by one guy
08:27:20 <asiekierk> now i'm waiting for someone to do PAL for NBTV... but that lacks a good name
08:31:06 <asiekierk> Also, I am wondering whether you can make a Nipkow camera by switching the LED with a light sensor...
08:31:16 <asiekierk> as in, swapping them in the device
08:31:28 <pikhq> Don't see why not.
08:32:37 <asiekierk> Also, pikhq, did you build a mechanical TV once?
08:43:31 <pikhq> No, but it seems like something I could do.
08:47:32 <asiekierk> I'm currently looking for a good tutorial
09:39:27 <asiekierk> And I'm wondering why am I converting the copy of the first Baird-system play
09:39:45 <asiekierk> "The Man with the Flower in his Mouth"
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09:47:22 <asiekierk> About 3 minutes left, then I'll start working on my Televisor, then convert the play from "prepared" AVI to the WAV, then play it from somewhere (my Wii, possibly) and WIN
09:59:56 <asiekierk> way too fast, it does like, half a minute of the movie in a second
10:00:42 <asiekierk> well, it actually does 5 seconds/second :P
10:01:40 <asiekierk> oh yay, the awesome sound of the NBTV :)
10:04:22 <asiekierk> Now I will need to make the Nipkow disk
10:57:30 <AnMaster> <bsmntbombdood> unicode is evil <-- wrong
10:57:42 <AnMaster> kerlo, bsmntbombdood: åäö åäö åäö
10:58:32 <asiekierk> i think i just made the coolest testcard/opening ever
10:58:51 <asiekierk> 20 seconds of the ye` ole` BBC countdown along with a 15-second clock and numbers for the last 3 seconds
11:01:13 <asiekierk> when I was frame-tuning the whole thing
11:04:34 <asiekierk> the thing takes exactly 2 minutes and 30 seconds
11:04:51 <asiekierk> and some other mini-testcards from the 'net
11:05:24 <pikhq> I've got to admit, NBTV is rather clever...
11:06:19 <asiekierk> nope, it'll take 2 minutes and 15 seconds
11:07:51 <asiekierk> The tuning signals and testcards take about 1 minute 50 seconds
11:08:10 <pikhq> Might be tempted to build a Nipkow-disc TV set some time soon...
11:08:30 <asiekierk> not for downscaling, it's all mostly pixel-by-pixel already
11:08:35 <asiekierk> Do you want WAV format or the original WMV?
11:08:36 <pikhq> Maybe get an NTSC->Nipkow converter going for the hell of it. ;p
11:09:17 <asiekierk> the WAV format which you can play into your NBTV (left channel - video, right channel - mono audio)
11:09:21 <pikhq> Both, if you don't mind?
11:09:31 <asiekierk> Actually, you can convert a WMV to a WAV
11:09:37 <asiekierk> but you first need to convert it to AVI for some reason
11:09:58 <asiekierk> I will give you the link for the converter
11:10:08 <asiekierk> and I converted "Man with the flower in his mouth" for it
11:11:17 <asiekierk> I will send you the installer and the BMPs with it (why not?)
11:11:41 <asiekierk> my testcard is also availble in "lame color version", btw, but i think you can just convert SMPTE bars to it
11:12:55 <asiekierk> Also, it doesn't really want to convert the WMV, will need to encode in higher res maybe :(
11:13:28 <asiekierk> wait, i think directshow+ffmpeg did it
11:17:25 <asiekierk> Video2NBTV (the AVI->NBTV converter), my testcard set and the AVI
11:53:00 <kerlo> I've always wanted to construct a display using rotating discs.
11:53:41 <asiekierk> I offer a tuning helper if anyone wants
11:53:52 <kerlo> Every disc has a pattern of stripes on it, and they're all stacked, and it uses Fourier transforms or something to figure out how to rotate them to give the right image.
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13:40:57 <asie[busy]> Progress: Cutting out the material for the Nipkow Disk
13:50:27 <asie[busy]> the ink is so weird i need to repaint some of the thing with a black marker
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13:58:16 <asie[busy]> a TV that uses the "Nipkow disk" and a LED and audio to show very lo-res analogue TV on a tiny half-inch screen*
13:58:27 <asie[busy]> * - using a single A4 sheet for the disk
13:59:57 <asie[busy]> for now, I have cut approx. 1/5th of that disk
14:06:45 <asie[busy]> now repainting some parts with a black marker (I hate my ink)
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14:19:00 <asie[busy]> the wheel works ((manually though, i will need to make bigger holes)
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14:23:02 <rabideejit> Consider deciphering the contents of http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Kolmogorov and http://www.killersmurf.com/projects/Kolmogorov
14:25:10 <Slereah> Is there an interpreter already?
14:25:15 <Slereah> If there is, he totally smoked me :o
14:26:03 <Slereah> Then I will take all credit
14:26:25 <Slereah> Graph rewriting is a bitch and I'm a terrible programmer.
14:26:35 <Slereah> So I never managed to write an interpreter.
14:26:51 <ais523> looks somewhat higher-level than the Andrei Machine
14:27:11 <ais523> given that you have a BF equivalence already, probably it's actually quite usable, which is always nice in an esolang
14:27:12 <rabideejit> Yes. The andrei machine is much closer to what Kolmogorov had in mind, I'd say.
14:27:34 <Slereah> Actually, it's exactly what Kolmogorov had in mind, except for the I/O.
14:28:05 <Slereah> If you want, the original article is here : http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/Kolmo/
14:28:13 <Slereah> They won't let me put it on the wiki though :3
14:29:36 <ais523> the wiki's public-domain, you can't put copyrighted things on there
14:29:41 <ais523> and things are copyrighted by default
14:30:12 <Slereah> Though I doubt we'd get in trouble
14:30:21 <rabideejit> Ah, thankyou! I was looking for that. My source was Uri Gurevich's on Kolmogorov Machines and Related issues.
14:31:44 <Slereah> Maybe I should finish my Fibonacci on that language.
14:32:41 <Slereah> The commands are much easier on that one
14:34:13 <Slereah> I should still try mine one day. This one doesn't have the global graph transformation.
14:37:03 <rabideejit> Ah, the Andrei machine has an easy-to-reach register. The challenger of the Kolmogorov language is all your data is all pointing to each other and you get lost. Hence the 500 line 99 bottles of beer.
14:37:54 <rabideejit> Ah but I guess the Andrei register is a bit hard to reach, as you have to run through the graph to get it.
14:38:14 <Slereah> Especially here, because it's the only way to know if it works correctly
14:38:38 <Slereah> I would do a debugger where you can see the actual graph, but I have no idea how to do it
14:39:24 <Slereah> The shitty part though is the graph recognition.
14:39:43 <Slereah> To use the transformations, it has to be able to recognize any pattern starting at 0
14:40:40 <Slereah> Especially since it doesn't have to be connected
14:45:58 <rabideejit> I must take your leave, I need to eat some yogurt. Nice to meet you Slereah.
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14:53:47 <Slereah> Turns out I'm an inspiration.
14:53:55 <ais523> ^bf ,>++++++[<-------->-],[<+>-]<!43
14:54:03 <ais523> ^bf ,>++++++[<-------->-],[<+>-]<.!43
14:54:32 <psygnisfive> so did anyone try that thing i suggested earlier? :P
14:56:07 <psygnisfive> taking the bitwise AND of (N+, N+) and graphing at only the points where that == 0
14:56:50 <Slereah> Wouldn't that be just everywhere outside of 1's everywhere?
14:57:48 <Slereah> Also why do you want that?
14:59:11 <Slereah> Fuck, it's been a while since I coded.
14:59:54 <Slereah> Except that it would involve doing a whole bunch of little bitwise operations
15:01:38 <Slereah> Yeah, but then, I can generalize to any size
15:01:45 <psygnisfive> plus, the magic doesnt happen unless you graph it two dimensionally
15:01:57 <Slereah> Plus I can just use my old binary converter of my Post machine
15:02:08 <Slereah> Also you can graph it with python
15:02:18 <Slereah> "#Decimal to binary string"
15:05:20 <psygnisfive> essentially what you want to do is something like
15:12:23 <ais523> psygnisfive: Python does not paste well at all over IRC
15:12:34 <ais523> at least convert tabs to spaces so we have a chance at seing what you're writing
15:12:53 <ais523> I just noticed the every-other-line-in-italics
15:12:59 <ais523> which is a usual sign to me that someone's tried to paste it
15:13:06 <ais523> but the |i| would suggest more Ruby
15:13:11 <psygnisfive> i dont see these things that you speak of.
15:13:16 <ais523> psygnisfive: my client interprets tab as toggle-italics
15:14:00 <fizzie> Tab *is* ctrl-i, so it's not that far off.
15:14:51 <ais523> tab is indeed control-I, not on the keyboard, but in terms of representation in a text file
15:14:54 <ais523> they're both ASCII code 8
15:15:26 <fizzie> As unrefutable proof: Wikipedia redirects from "Control-I" to "Tab key".
15:15:41 <ais523> control-a is 1, control-b is 2, control-c is 3, and so on
15:16:04 <ais523> have you ever wondered why it requires a lot of trickery to distinguish return and control-j from inside a program, for instance?
15:16:31 <psygnisfive> because ive never experienced such problems.
15:26:11 <Slereah> X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
15:26:33 <Slereah> X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
15:26:50 <Slereah> X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
15:26:50 <Slereah> X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
15:26:50 <Slereah> X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X
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15:27:04 <fizzie> Who ate the corners off the sierpinsky cookie?
15:29:16 <Slereah> Well, it is fractally in the other way around it seems
15:29:57 <Slereah> Finite sized patterns that repeat at bigger scales :o
15:30:21 <Slereah> Is there a way to display Python in a monospaced font?
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15:39:59 <psygnisfive> the more interesting thing is that its the sierpinski gasket AND it comes about JUST from doing bitwise AND over N^2
15:40:20 <fizzie> A gasket is also: 1. gasket -- (seal consisting of a ring for packing pistons or sealing a pipe joint)
15:40:23 <Slereah> You are aware that fractals don't have to be complex
15:40:35 <Slereah> Cantor set is easy as shit to create
15:41:07 <psygnisfive> but the point is more that this structure comes about from simple bitwise logic on numbers
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15:41:33 <Slereah> I am hard to fill with wonder
15:41:39 <Slereah> Although semen is another matter
15:42:13 <psygnisfive> or more precisely, the gasket is there in bitwise logic over ALL integers. so that its not some convoluted escape time algorithm, or geometric copy algorithm (tho it might be equivalent to the last one)
15:42:48 <fizzie> "Also, it seems like they could fill more things with cream." "Just "things" in general? Where do you draw the line?" "Well, my thinking is this: if it's empty, fill it with cream." (That's one of the quotes fungot has.)
15:42:48 <fungot> fizzie: you're either with them or are they only used for rebuilds in case of hack attacks illegal activity,
15:43:19 <fungot> psygnisfive: dang... the guy tried to argue) because lisp and scheme
15:43:29 <fizzie> Well, a close relative, anyway.
15:43:42 <psygnisfive> hm. he should be a phrase-structure bot instead! :|
15:44:15 <fizzie> Data structures are a bit iffy to do with befunge; I went with the simplest option.
15:44:19 <psygnisfive> sure, it'd require more computation, but it would produce grammatically correct sentences with absolutely not sensibility to them
15:44:44 <fizzie> Funge-98, to be exact: http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.b98.txt
15:44:44 <fungot> fizzie: that's all. easily parsed even in emacs. wanting to see a larger project you end up with
15:44:50 <psygnisfive> well, you actually dont have to do it with datastructures
15:45:00 <psygnisfive> just some sort of context free production system
15:45:03 <fizzie> Oh, that was an eerily suitable reply.
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15:45:17 <ais523> so if it can easily be done even in Emacs, why not in Befunge?
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15:49:50 <psygnisfive> { (x,y) : x,y in N; x&y = 0 } is the gasket. how crazy is that tho
15:50:48 <psygnisfive> it generalizes to gasket-like structures in n dimensions: { p : p in N^k; &p = 0 }
15:51:36 <Slereah> How did you know this though
15:51:57 <psygnisfive> a professor of mine does a bunch of crazy stuff with logic, philosophy, and computation
15:52:13 <psygnisfive> he coauthored a book called The Philosophical Computer, and he mentions this in one chapter.
15:52:56 <psygnisfive> he's apparently very interested in what the fundamental principle is that leads to the Sierpinski Gasket showing up all over the place (bitwise logic, 1d CAs, GoL, etc.)
15:53:38 <psygnisfive> i think i've determined why it shows up in GoL tho. GoL is actually simulating a 4-state 1D CA when it produces the gasket
15:53:49 <Slereah> Maybe God is just too lazy to finish his triangles
15:53:59 <Slereah> Or the universe is filled with bees
15:54:11 <Slereah> And sip sip syrup sipping nigga are honeycombs
15:54:12 <psygnisfive> anyway, its just interesting that the same thing shows up again and again
15:54:24 <psygnisfive> it'd be interesting to find out precisely WHAT the general principle is
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16:06:52 <ehird> 03:27 kerlo: ehird's mom is probably 31 or older.
16:06:57 <ehird> 14:26 h has left IRC (Excess Flood)
16:07:01 <ehird> Fuck, more regex fuckery.
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16:13:31 <ehird> kerlo: If you want to precisify the value, you can play 20 questions.
16:14:07 <ehird> Or, y'know, just analyze LISP and FORTRAN release dates and soforth.
16:14:25 <ais523> LISP and FORTRAN release dates would determine the value?
16:14:37 <ehird> "03:27 kerlo: ehird's mom is probably 31 or older."
16:14:53 <ehird> Based, presumably, on me saying that when my mother was a kid, LISP and FORTRAN on punchcards were the order of the day.
16:16:05 <ehird> Good lord, Apple made the iPod Shuffle even smaller.
16:16:18 <ehird> Soon it'll take up negative space.
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16:17:05 <ais523> they should fit it inside a pair of headphones
16:17:19 <ais523> why is that funny? I thought it was quite a good idea
16:17:26 <ais523> after all, how many controls does the thing need?
16:17:52 <ehird> it just has start/stop and forward, I think, except now it has playlists apparently
16:18:17 <ehird> volume up, volume down, and one button
16:18:28 <ehird> single click: lay/pause, next track: double click, previous track: triple click
16:18:34 <ehird> hear title and artist (TTS): hold
16:18:46 <ehird> hold center button and release after tone: speaks out playlist names, click to select
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16:19:08 <ehird> ais523: the thing is, they ship with earphones
16:19:13 <ehird> http://images.apple.com/ipodshuffle/images/features_hero_20090311.jpg
16:19:19 <ehird> I guess you could fit the button on to one
16:19:22 <ehird> and up/down volume on another
16:22:51 <fizzie> Just stick an accelerometer in, and have you shake your head like you've got a seizure whenever you need to interact with it.
16:23:14 <ais523> how do ipod shuffles work, controlwise?
16:23:25 <ehird> ais523: I just told you!
16:23:29 <ehird> ehird: volume up, volume down, and one button
16:23:29 <ehird> 15:18 ehird: single click: lay/pause, next track: double click, previous track: triple click
16:23:31 <ehird> 15:18 ehird: hear title and artist (TTS): hold
16:23:33 <ehird> 15:18 ehird: hold center button and release after tone: speaks out playlist names, click to select
16:23:40 <ehird> on the side there's a volume up button, one single button, and the volume down
16:23:45 <ehird> and the single button has the operations above
16:25:03 <ais523> I'm kind-of doing something else at the moment, so I'm not really paying attention to IRC
16:25:20 <ais523> and based on the name, presumably it plays in random order if given no other instructions?
16:26:16 <ehird> you can't make it go in normal order, I think
16:28:13 <ais523> I've used headphones before which had a volume knob on each headphone
16:28:18 <ais523> that's effectively 4 controls
16:28:42 <ais523> you could have a rotating off/volume knob on one earphone, and the button on the other, I suppose
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17:03:49 <ehird> " Linux is by far the most popular UNIX OS"
17:04:11 <ais523> change that to UNIX-compatible, and it's probably correct
17:04:24 <ehird> has a larger market share than linux
17:05:48 <ehird> isn't linux around 1% market share?
17:05:54 <ehird> and mac around 9% or so?
17:05:58 <ehird> hm, maybe a bit less
17:06:17 <ais523> ehird: add in servers and embedded systems, and linux beats mac os x hollow
17:06:34 * ais523 wonders what proportion of UNIX-compatible systems are servers
17:06:37 <ehird> embedded systems, sure
17:06:46 <ehird> BSD is very popular on servers
17:07:03 <ais523> yep, Windows isn't unix-compatible though so doesn't count
17:07:14 <ais523> but BSD and Solaris both definitely factor into the server market
17:08:54 <fizzie> OS X Server, now... I don't think that's so very very popular.
17:09:04 <ais523> no, although IIRC it does exist
17:09:06 <ehird> Yeah, OS X server has like 0 market share.
17:09:21 <ehird> I imagine it's mostly used in small businesses.
17:09:35 <ehird> For corporate sites & email and internal intranet sites etc
17:09:38 <fizzie> "16.7% of smartphones sold worldwide during 2006 were using Linux[49]" -- that's a larger number than I expected.
17:10:00 <fizzie> From the infallible wikipedia, of course.
17:10:07 <ehird> OS X Server does integrate its unix user accounts with the web services, which is nice.
17:10:15 <ehird> Can't t hink of anyhting particularly exciting about it, though.
17:10:26 <ehird> Also, it comes with all the dekstop apps, which is rather stupid.
17:10:39 <ais523> ehird: but they're the only thing that distinguishes OSX from Darwin
17:10:43 <ais523> admittedly, it's a big and good selling point
17:11:01 <ehird> ais523: Not quite.
17:11:10 <ehird> The GUI in general is; but do you need iCal on a server?
17:11:36 <ais523> I sort-of got the impression that OSX Server was designed to be used as a workstation and also a server at the same time
17:12:23 <ehird> That would be a rather odd use-case.
17:12:32 <ehird> "Sorry guys, I'm playing a dvd, slight slowdown"
17:16:11 <ais523> I can imagine that use-case for people living at home who wanted a servery thing of their own
17:16:21 <ehird> It's pricey, though.
17:16:25 <ais523> I mean, even this laptop has apache installed, although other people can't access it except via a reverse tunnel
17:16:28 <ehird> Like really pricey
17:16:50 <ehird> 10-client license is £312
17:16:50 <ais523> well, that's not out of character for Apple, but it's no wonder why nobody buys it
17:16:58 <ehird> ais523: regular OS X comes with apache
17:17:07 <ais523> does it come with an ircd?
17:17:17 <ehird> I don't think OS X Server comes with an ircd :P
17:17:51 <ais523> I have an ircd on here too, although I only use it for testing bots
17:18:16 <ehird> Installing an ircd on here would be rather trivial
17:18:27 <ehird> % port info ngircd
17:18:27 <ehird> ngircd @0.12.1 (irc)
17:18:29 <ehird> Variants: ident, universal
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17:18:48 <ehird> So, same as (an apt-based) Linux (distro), really.
17:19:46 <ais523> so why buy the server version if the desktop version can do that?
17:19:59 <ehird> That's what I'm asking. :P
17:20:15 <ais523> maybe it's against the licence agreement
17:20:33 <ais523> just like you aren't allowed to have more than 4 simultaneous incoming network connections on non-server versions of Windows
17:20:42 <ehird> Now THAT I highly doubt...
17:21:12 <ehird> After all, MacPorts is hosted on Mac OS Forge, which Apple runs (and personally approves all projects on, i.e. it's not something like berlios or whatever)
17:21:19 <ehird> but is that true about windows?
17:21:24 <ais523> ehird: I mean, to use it as a server
17:21:25 <ehird> Crazy! I'll have violated that billions of times...
17:21:31 <ais523> as for that thing about Windows, I remember it from somewhere
17:21:31 <ehird> ais523: right, but macports has servers
17:21:40 <ais523> but it may have been false, or I might have misremembered
17:21:42 <ehird> and is on a site with pseudo-official projects
17:22:44 <ais523> Googling, it seems it's a Windows XP SP 2 thing, specifically
17:22:46 <ehird> Someone should get an old eMac and run emacs on it
17:22:51 <ais523> and the websites there seem to disagree about the number
17:22:56 <ais523> 2, 4, and 10 have all been reported
17:24:17 <ais523> grr... why are all the files on microsoft.com .doc files?
17:24:32 <ais523> I could understand docx
17:24:37 <ais523> but doc seems self-defeating for everyone
17:24:41 <ehird> because they're old
17:24:47 <ehird> and they want to support old words
17:25:10 <ais523> "Note: If SQL Server 2005 Express is running on Windows XP Home, it is limited to five simultaneous connections. If it is running on Windows 2000 or Windows XP Professional, it is limited to 10 simultaneous connections. However, these are limitations of the operating system and not of SQL Server 2005 Express."
17:25:23 <ais523> found on a word document on microsoft.com, that's evidence, at least
17:25:27 <ehird> you can modify tha
17:26:16 <ais523> "If you have not heard, Microsoft has announced the name for the next version of Windows, a.k.a. Longhorn. It will be called Windows Vista. The great news is, Windows Vista Beta 1, targeted at developers and IT professionals, is now available to MSDN Subscribers. Please check the new the new Windows Vista Developer Center for more details."
17:26:23 <ais523> wow, didn't expect to randomly see that when searching
17:26:44 <ehird> I liked the longhorn name
17:26:52 <ehird> it was vaguely phallic. Like Windows.
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18:01:33 <ehird> "AuroraUX - SunOS-based Operating System Written (Mostly) in Ada"
18:01:38 <ehird> Well, it's certainly esoteric.
18:02:01 <ais523> is it 100% military reliable secure?
18:02:12 <ais523> given that it's written in ADA, it ought to be
18:02:17 <ais523> that was the whole point behind ada
18:02:20 <ehird> ada is not UPPERCASE
18:02:38 <ehird> sorry, pet peeve...
18:02:42 <ehird> the worst is LISP and JAVA
18:02:52 <ais523> I thought it was named after someone
18:02:55 <ais523> but written in uppercase anyway
18:03:01 <ais523> I know it isn't an acronym
18:03:04 <ais523> and yes, I know who it's named after
18:03:18 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_(programming_language) netcraft^Wwikipedia confirms i
18:03:36 <ais523> Wikipedia has it at Ada, though
18:03:39 <ais523> you beat me to checking
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18:08:48 <ehird> [[It mostly crashes immediately, mostly due to some unsupported operations in the assembler backend, but for a carefully crafted program, we're able to get massive speedups. For something as complex as:
18:08:51 <ehird> while i < 10000000:
18:08:55 <ehird> our JIT is about 20x faster than CPython. ]]
18:09:01 <ehird> I wish I could write programs that complex.
18:09:44 <ais523> ehird: I can optimise that into i = 10000000
18:09:54 <ehird> You're the best compiler ever.
18:09:56 <ais523> that's probably more than a factor-of-20 speedup
18:09:58 <ehird> Here, compile this program.
18:10:07 <ehird> also, that announcement was tounge-in-cheek
18:10:18 <ais523> ehird: one of my friends actually said that at university, that they'd rather trust me to convert C into asm than the compiler
18:10:28 <ais523> although admittedly it was a really awful compiler
18:10:32 <ais523> I trusted me more than it too
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18:10:50 <ais523> which has been mentioned on thedailywtf sidebar at least once, so it isn't me
18:11:11 <ehird> is that the gpl-but-eula one?
18:11:22 <ais523> no, that's MPLAB C30 which is actually quite good
18:11:38 <ehird> you should put that one on the internet with the eula-removing modifications and see what they do :-D
18:11:44 <ais523> it's about as good as gcc is, although a bit less optimised, which is not surprising
18:11:51 <ais523> also, the eula-removing modifications are already online
18:11:52 <ehird> "We will sue you for not complying with our EUL... oh, crap."
18:11:57 <ehird> ais523: i meant, the whole source
18:12:04 <ais523> I just swapped out the EULA for the standard hello world that came with microsoft visual C
18:12:30 <ais523> really, communicating with your licence enforcer via exit code is not such a good idea
18:15:18 <ehird> "I hate the people who just post their solution in J. That's almost as intelligible as brainfuck. " -- on project euler
18:15:26 <ehird> how dare they use a concise, expressive language
18:15:29 <ehird> ... like brainfuck
18:19:24 <AnMaster> How much scrollback is needed for context?
18:19:44 <ehird> for my brainfuck thing, about 7 by now
18:19:53 <ais523> for eula talk, quite a lot more, for ehird's joke just 4 before you said hi
18:20:15 <ais523> ehird: you should look up CCS C some time, anyway, it's sufficiently bad that at one point I was just planning to reimplement it better
18:20:33 <ais523> for instance, if you pass a constant string as an argument to a function
18:20:45 <ais523> it converts it into a loop which calls the function once for each character of the string
18:20:50 <ais523> with that character as argument
18:20:54 <ehird> Afugawhatthefuckbitshit.
18:21:09 <ehird> fgokpdfkogkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
18:21:11 <ais523> ok, so that's occasionally a useful operation, they really shouldn't have made it the default though
18:21:12 <ehird> ;______; You ruined my brain.
18:21:20 <AnMaster> <ais523> really, communicating with your licence enforcer via exit code is not such a good idea <-- Huh?
18:21:23 <ais523> because it so blatantly breaks about half the C standard
18:21:30 <ehird> WHY DID THEY DO THAT
18:21:42 <ais523> because strings are expensive on their target platform
18:21:54 <ehird> AnMaster: why do you say huh at basic, mundane, simple sentences
18:22:03 <ais523> and instead of optimising printf("Hello, world!\n") into the row of putchars it ought to be
18:22:21 <ais523> in CCS C you're supposed to write putchar("Hello, world!\n"), never mind that that makes absolutely no sense
18:22:23 <AnMaster> ehird, because it made no sense
18:22:31 <ehird> AnMaster: what the fuck? of course it did
18:22:34 <ehird> how can that not make sense
18:22:41 <ehird> I don't see any wiggle room for meaninglessness in that sentence
18:22:43 <ais523> (note, hello world as a row of putchars is suboptimal on most platforms but probably the best way on the PIC)
18:22:50 <ehird> I can't come up with one single interpretation in which that makes no sense...
18:22:53 <AnMaster> licence enforcer is some sort of program?
18:23:20 <ehird> http://paste.lisp.org/display/76820 <-- ' CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION FORTH IN
18:23:52 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:24:31 <ehird> "Conventional wisdom has it that Mosaic was the first graphical web browser. Even though Mosaic - the basis for Netscape - certainly kickstarted the web revolution, it wasn't the first graphical web browser at all - that honour goes to Erwise"
18:24:45 <ehird> WorldWideWeb.app was the first graphical browser, and the first BROWSER...
18:24:56 <AnMaster> ais523, depending on what PIC you target, just using ASM may be saner
18:25:08 <ais523> I'm talking about the sort of asm you need
18:25:25 <AnMaster> ais523, like I doubt any sort of C would make much sense for PIC12F629 (which I programmed against)
18:25:27 <ais523> but putchar on a PIC requires you to write an interrupt handler by hand, or else use the hardware serial port as a background thread
18:25:47 <ais523> AnMaster: that's what CCS C is, it mostly targets PIC16 but they don't have a much bigger instruction set
18:25:50 <AnMaster> ais523, well. I'm not sure where STDOUT would be on a PIC...
18:26:02 <ais523> AnMaster: it's the UART that's both stdout and stdin
18:26:41 <ais523> well, USART on a PIC, although I don't know of anyone who used them in synchronous mode
18:26:47 <AnMaster> ais523, hm iirc PIC12* doesn't have a special such...
18:26:56 <ais523> some will, some won't, I expect
18:27:40 <AnMaster> ais523, I mean I had serial port connected two ways in programming mode, and but when running I needed that pin for something else. So I used a jumper
18:28:20 <ais523> well, yes, you can implement it in software
18:28:31 <ais523> CCS C requires weird pragmas to set up the UART, or else software emulation of it
18:28:53 <AnMaster> ais523, apart from programming mode I had to handle serial interrupt myself completely, PIC12 doesn't have any support built in.
18:29:04 <ais523> nearly all PIC16s do, IIRC
18:29:09 <ais523> certainly the ones I've used do
18:29:22 <AnMaster> I don't remember how programming mode worked. I think it was driving some pin(s) to certain values or something like that
18:29:27 <ais523> you still need a MAX232 or something though because the output's at the wrong voltages for conventional communicatoin
18:29:36 <ais523> and programming mode works by putting 12V into the reset pin
18:29:46 <ais523> something you're unlikely to do by mistake as they're only 5V devices normally
18:29:57 <ais523> and smacks very much of DO NOT DO THIS UNLESS YOU REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING
18:30:05 <AnMaster> ais523, well this was so long ago I don't remember details
18:30:44 <AnMaster> but it does sound familiar now that you mention it
18:31:01 <AnMaster> ais523, however are you sure PIC12* are 5V?
18:31:20 <ais523> they vary from about 3.3 to 5, IIRC
18:32:21 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc PIC12F629 was 1.5 V...
18:32:32 <ais523> wow, that's low, but not entirely implausible
18:32:39 <ais523> I wonder if it still had a 12V program mode?
18:32:45 <ais523> something needs to generate program voltage, after all
18:33:04 <ehird> perl -lpe 's;.;y$IVCXL91-I0$XLMCDXVIII$dfor$I.=4x$&%1859^7;eg;$_=$I'
18:33:15 <ais523> ehird: let me work out what that does without running it
18:33:15 <AnMaster> ais523, well I may misremember, and it may have 9 V or such then for programming?
18:33:15 <ehird> give it decimal numbers.
18:33:28 <ehird> ais523: just to warn you, it's computer generated
18:33:54 <ehird> (a perl program wrote a c program that, when run, gave output which when given to a perl program outputted a perl program)
18:33:59 <ehird> so congrats if you can understand it
18:34:04 <ais523> AnMaster: not really, you need voltages around 12V to reflash a chip no matter what it normally runs as
18:34:05 <ehird> although I think it's obvious looknig at it
18:34:06 <AnMaster> ehird, which coding contest was it from?
18:34:09 <ehird> AnMaster: perl golf
18:34:39 <ais523> ok, it starts by looping over all characters in the input string
18:34:57 <AnMaster> ehird, I see. So what program was used to generate it. Because compiler generated asm from icc -fast is more readable.
18:35:13 <ais523> AnMaster: asm is meant to be readable, you should be comparing that to machine code
18:35:14 <ehird> ha ha perl is unreadable because I don't know it ohhh such a bastion of comedy.
18:35:23 <ehird> that got old in 1990, AnMaster.
18:35:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well I can read some perl. I'm not totally perl illiterate. I just don't know all the details. I know enough to read clean perl programs.
18:37:02 <ais523> that Perl is deliberately rather compressed, by the look of it
18:37:08 <ais523> also using $ as a delimiter to y is evil
18:37:19 <ehird> "deliberately"? i said, it's computer generated
18:37:22 <ehird> 17:33 ehird: (a perl program wrote a c program that, when run, gave output which when given to a perl program outputted a perl program)
18:37:27 <ais523> they were deliberately going for obfuscation there, I think
18:37:28 <ehird> so of course it's generated to be as short as possible
18:37:31 <ehird> ais523: it's perl golf
18:37:34 <ehird> of course it's obfuscated ...
18:37:44 <ais523> but it would be just as short using , or something, and more readable
18:38:04 <ais523> presumably the computer just picked a random punctuation mark that worked
18:38:21 <AnMaster> ehird, so was the C program as obfuscated?
18:38:27 <ehird> no, none of the generators were
18:38:29 <ehird> only the final result
18:38:31 <ais523> anyway, the algorithm's weird
18:38:56 <AnMaster> ok. when ais523 figured it out or gave up, could you please provide a link?
18:39:13 <ais523> it takes characters from the input string, then multiplies by 1111, modulos by 1859, and bitwise-xors by 7
18:39:18 <ehird> you can have it now, thanks to the power of /msg
18:39:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I can already guess what it does
18:39:26 <ais523> just from the characters used
18:39:28 <ehird> yeah it's obvious from the code
18:39:29 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/83rkc/very_clever_perlgolfed_arabictoromannumerals/
18:39:31 <ais523> but it's nice to know for certain
18:39:38 <ehird> Deewiant: thanks, asshole
18:39:47 <ehird> ais523 specifically said he wanted to work it out himself
18:40:02 <ehird> that would work if the answer wasn't IN THE LINK
18:40:03 <AnMaster> of course, since it was ehird I should have known it was on reddit...
18:40:07 <ais523> ehird: I guessed what it did, I'm just trying to work out why
18:40:13 <ais523> [17:33] <ehird> perl -lpe 's;.;y$IVCXL91-I0$XLMCDXVIII$dfor$I.=4x$&%1859^7;eg;$_=$I'
18:40:16 <Deewiant> ehird: you already told him it's obvious from the code
18:40:22 <ais523> on the other hand, it's easier to work out what it does when I don't have to scrollback
18:40:23 <ehird> Deewiant: that doesn't mean anything in particular
18:40:26 <Deewiant> and I assume we're all smart enough to realize what's obvious
18:40:41 <Deewiant> I admit I didn't notice it was in the link, though
18:41:45 <ais523> it's not $&x4, it's 4x$&
18:41:51 <ais523> that makes a big difference
18:42:58 <ais523> anyway, it seems to arithmetically encode a lookup table of single digits to roman numerals
18:43:02 <ais523> and has code for multiplying roman numerals by 10
18:43:10 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:43:16 <ais523> it alternates them in a loop, that's the basic algorithm
18:43:35 * ais523 reads the reddit discussion
18:43:45 <ehird> read the linked article
18:43:46 <ehird> not the discussion
18:43:50 <ehird> (which is worthless)
18:43:57 <ais523> it is worthless atm, I agree
18:44:05 <ais523> so I'll read the article next, reading the discussion was easy
18:44:24 <ehird> Sgeo: don't tell me you don't have scrollback
18:44:42 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/83rkc/very_clever_perlgolfed_arabictoromannumerals/
18:46:24 <ais523> ehird: it seems it was hand-obfuscated at the end while maintaining constant length
18:46:32 <ais523> which is what explains the crazy choice of $ as a delimiter
18:46:52 -!- M0ny has joined.
18:47:15 <ais523> and I pretty much understood how it worked, although I couldn't do the arithmetic lookup table in my head
18:48:18 <ehird> that program converts
18:48:24 <ehird> 123456789000 to MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
18:48:58 <ais523> it doesn't modify capital M when multiplying by 10
18:49:03 <AnMaster> I also read that posting. Isn't this quite close to a perfect hash function that is as short as possible?
18:49:28 <ehird> wait, it can't be overflow
18:49:33 <ehird> adding more digits gives more
18:49:42 <ehird> oh because they're seperate ones
18:49:47 <ais523> but it saturates at overflow
18:49:58 * ais523 tries to work out why the -l on the command line
18:50:21 <ehird> ais523: adds a newline, I think
18:50:28 <ehird> [ehird:~] % perl -pe 's;.;y$IVCXL91-I0$XLMCDXVIII$dfor$I.=4x$&%1859^7;eg;$_=$I'2
18:50:57 <ais523> it turns on autochomping, and adds a newline at end of line to compensate
18:51:14 <AnMaster> wait a sec the posting is from 2004? And the reddit post from 7 hours ago?
18:51:23 <ais523> so that way the program doesn't have to worry about compensating for an attempt to translate a newline into roman numerals
18:51:27 <ehird> why does it matter how old it is, AnMaster?
18:51:32 <AnMaster> ehird, so you can post any old link on reddit?
18:51:40 <AnMaster> as long as it is on the right topic of course
18:51:41 <ehird> ... why the heck not?
18:51:45 <ehird> are only new things worthwhile...?
18:52:08 <AnMaster> ehird, no, but only tracking new stuff making duplication avoiding easier
18:52:15 <ehird> (the only place newness is emphasised on reddit is the mainpage title (reddit.com: what's new online!), which most people don't see and was probably just a last-minute thing)
18:52:21 <ehird> AnMaster: that's ridiculous, duplciation is good
18:52:27 <ehird> not everybody sees things first time
18:52:49 <AnMaster> ehird, why is it? Wouldn't keeping everything about something in one place be good? If there is some useful comment the first time it was posted
18:53:01 <ehird> reddit is about the links
18:53:03 <ehird> the comments are a nice bonus
18:54:04 <ais523> well, knowing me, I often try to infer the content of the links from the comments rather than clicking on them
18:54:10 <ais523> I only follow the links if the comments imply they're interesting to me
18:54:30 <AnMaster> ais523, so you hate url shortening?
18:54:49 <ais523> AnMaster: how does that follow from what I said?
18:55:04 <ais523> actually, I like it, but only in appropriate contexts
18:55:19 <AnMaster> ais523, because you can't see from the link itself what it means?
18:55:28 <ais523> AnMaster: you can't do that anyway, it's just an URL
18:55:32 <ehird> he never even said that
18:55:35 <ehird> w t f are you on about...
18:55:36 <AnMaster> which is one form of comment, an in-band comment
18:55:54 <ais523> how do I know that http://rickroll.com isn't a goatse?
18:56:01 <AnMaster> also I never said I was trying to make sense...
18:56:04 <ehird> it's parked, actually
18:56:08 <ehird> For resources and information on Rick and Origin of Rock N Roll
18:56:18 <ais523> ehird: I was guessing parked, actually
18:56:30 <ais523> second guess was an actual rickroll, or else a guide about them
18:57:40 <AnMaster> btw... why did kerlo remove the unicode from topic? In logs I only see "<kerlo> Who's been using Unicode in here?", "<bsmntbombdood> unicode is evil" and kerlo changing the topic + a few unrelated lines
18:58:12 <ehird> -3. integer overflow problem.
18:58:49 <ehird> speaking of URL shorteners, http://snipr.com/dltn2
18:58:58 <ais523> what's that a link to?
18:59:11 <ehird> not a rickroll. nor goatse.
18:59:13 <ais523> ok, that's getting somewhere
18:59:22 <ais523> it could have been an individual web /page/, for instance
18:59:36 <Sgeo> It's a link to a rickroll-link-maker
18:59:36 <ehird> actually, now it's a rick roll.
18:59:38 <ais523> ok, so your first useful clue was actually wrong
18:59:46 <ehird> it was a link to http://rickroll.tv/
18:59:49 <ehird> now it's a link to http://rickroll.tv/classic
18:59:52 <ehird> because it had two clicks
18:59:57 <ais523> snipr allows retargetable URLs?
19:00:02 <ehird> it just redirects to
19:00:06 <ehird> http://rickroll.tv/
19:00:09 <ehird> and that inspects the referer
19:00:15 <ais523> rickroll.tv works once from each referer?
19:00:19 -!- AnMaster has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D | sʞɔoɹ ǝpoɔıun.
19:00:56 <ais523> Welcome to RickRoll TV! On this channel, we (cuts to scene of Rick Astley)
19:01:17 <ais523> in order to successfully rickroll, it has to make you think the rickroll isn't coming /yet/
19:01:32 <ais523> because from the name, you know it's coming
19:04:51 <AnMaster> What is so bad with rickroll? I mean I don't like the music especially, but it isn't *that* bad.
19:05:02 <ehird> it's not meant to be particularly bad
19:05:04 <ais523> AnMaster: because it gets in the way of useful links?
19:05:07 <ais523> it isn't all that bad, agreed
19:05:20 <ais523> randomly redirecting people to about:blank would be about as annoying, if it had become a meme
19:05:27 <ehird> asiekierk: I could have guessed.
19:05:30 <AnMaster> ais523, be careful in what you say...
19:05:32 <ais523> so not amazingly dangerous or annoying, but still annoying
19:05:58 <ais523> AnMaster: http://tinyurl.com/18r
19:06:15 * AnMaster goes to http://preview.tinyurl.com/18r
19:06:33 <ehird> also, you can turn on preview by defaul.
19:06:38 <ais523> ok, this is officially the new rickroll: trick people into looking at the tinyurl preview page for about:blank
19:06:51 <ehird> [[Hide your affiliate URLs
19:06:51 <ehird> Are you posting something that you don't want people to know what the URL is because it might give away that it's an affiliate link? Then you can enter a URL into TinyURL, and your affiliate link will be hidden from the visitor, only the tinyurl.com address and the ending address will be visible to your visitors.
19:07:02 <ehird> how is etthics formed
19:07:13 <AnMaster> ehird, but doesn't preview work still?
19:07:15 <ehird> how affiliate get clicked
19:07:19 <ehird> ais523: meme fail >:(
19:07:26 <ais523> I don't know of that meme
19:07:40 <ehird> http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Image:Babby.jpg
19:07:44 <ehird> http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/2/29/Babby.jpg (to avoid ads)
19:07:49 <ehird> misses the answer, though.
19:08:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you never noticed it either?
19:08:15 <ehird> oh well, here's the answer:
19:08:16 <ehird> They need to do way instain mother> who kill thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back? it was on the news this mroing a mother in ar who had kill her three kids. they are taking the three babby back to new york too lady to rest my pary are with the father who lost his children ; i am truley sorry for your lots
19:08:23 <tombom> the flash movie is betetr
19:08:30 <ehird> tombom: ais523 refuses to use flash
19:08:45 <ais523> so, I also refuse to visit encyclopediadramatica
19:08:51 <ais523> so it comes to much the same thing either way
19:09:01 <ehird> except I directly linked to a jpg
19:09:12 <ehird> what on earth is the point in refusing to click that?
19:09:36 <Deewiant> ED's admin(s) don't take kindly to hotlinking, but I guess a few clicks from IRC are safe
19:09:47 <ehird> you can't tell IRC from no-referrer-firewall
19:10:07 <Deewiant> Sure you can, just not accurately
19:10:34 <AnMaster> what about them? what would you do with it
19:10:35 <ais523> Deewiant: what to ED's admins do in response to hotlinks
19:10:41 <ehird> ais523: you don't want to know.
19:10:53 <ehird> it involves replacing the image, and the page titled "Offensive"
19:10:56 <Deewiant> If IP went to image without going to the page of the image first, it came from somewhere else
19:11:10 <ehird> err, not offensive
19:11:12 <Deewiant> ais523: replace it with goatse/tubgirl/etc panoramas and such
19:11:24 <ehird> Deewiant: way worse than that, IME :P
19:11:34 <ais523> ehird: you've experienced that?
19:11:39 <ehird> I like how [[Offended]] starts with cute rabbit pictures
19:11:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um after you confirm that it came from elsewhere. Then what?
19:12:04 * Sgeo doesn't like how he apparently once got malware from ED
19:12:13 <ehird> i find that very unlikely, Sgeo
19:12:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: well if you get too many of those in a short while you replace the image
19:12:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you couldn't know if it was IRC or email or IM or whatever
19:12:32 <Deewiant> AnMaster: yes, and it doesn't matter
19:12:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about users using anonymous proxies? or such
19:12:59 <ais523> surely they should just do the reverse solution to avoid hotlinks?
19:13:09 <ais523> as in, allow people to see the image only if the referrer is correct
19:13:11 <ais523> rather than if it's wrong
19:13:20 <ehird> that breaks no-referer-firewalls
19:13:25 <ehird> of which there are a lot
19:13:29 <ais523> so, do they actually care about those?
19:13:42 <AnMaster> ais523, it can break in other cases too
19:13:47 <ehird> ED isn't in the business of being actively hostile to its users
19:13:53 <AnMaster> like if you use history in the browser
19:13:54 <ais523> just other people's users
19:14:01 <ehird> It's in the business of being passively hostile to its subjects, and actively hostile to anyone else
19:14:09 <ais523> ehird: sounds about right
19:16:48 <AnMaster> to those on linux: any of you have a man page for gai.conf (section 5)
19:17:03 <ehird> http://linux.die.net/man/5/gai.conf
19:17:15 <ehird> Ulrich Drepper wrote it.
19:17:18 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I know. I just can't find the man page on any of the systems I have
19:17:54 <AnMaster> well yes I know what it is. Was just wondering why there was no man page *installed* for it. Since the config file does exist on several (but not all) of those systems
19:18:10 <ais523> it's taking a while, I have lots of packages installed
19:18:47 <ehird> hey, LimeChat has a pastebin built in
19:19:00 <ais523> how does it work, via a dedicated website?
19:19:02 <ehird> http://pasternak.superalloy.nl/pastes/1565
19:19:11 <ais523> I would love it so much if it just created a webserver on your system for that paste
19:19:12 <ehird> ais523: it just uses some random pastebin
19:19:17 <ais523> but that's broken by NAT, probably
19:19:23 <ais523> stupid NAT, all sorts of things are broken by it
19:19:27 <AnMaster> ais523, I didn't know dpkg-query could do it, now that you said debian has it I sshed to a debian system and indeed it exists there
19:19:29 <ehird> seems to be written by a ruby person, since limechat is a ruby thang that makes sense
19:19:37 <ais523> AnMaster: libc6: /usr/share/man/man5/gai.conf.5.gz
19:19:48 <ais523> so it's in libc6 on debian
19:19:50 <AnMaster> ais523, it would probably be faster if I ran it there, If I knew how to make dpkg-query do it
19:19:56 <ais523> which agrees with what ehird thinks
19:20:03 <ais523> AnMaster: dpkg-query -S filename
19:20:11 <ais523> only works if the file is currently installed via a package manager
19:20:16 <ais523> as in, it only searches packages you have
19:20:35 <ais523> ehird: it was your choice to trust google on that
19:20:36 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah, took about half a second. Though admittedly not as much is installed
19:22:23 <AnMaster> now to figure out how to write a gai.conf so it *prefers* IPv6 over IPv4. Getting IPv4 results back is pretty useless on an IPv6 only host...
19:22:46 <ehird> also known as "paperweight"
19:22:55 <AnMaster> ehird, it's the future. Lets start early ;)
19:23:16 <ehird> considering ipv6 adoption levels, it very well might not be the future
19:23:17 * ais523 is looking forward to actually supported everywhere ipv6 due to hating NAT
19:24:04 <AnMaster> ais523, personally I hope NAT will be possible under ipv6, knowning my ISP they are the type who would only give you one ip and require paying a lot extra per extra IP...
19:24:20 <ehird> nat under ipv6? fail...
19:24:28 <ehird> also, I don't even have a static IP....
19:24:30 <ehird> it's not a problem
19:24:36 <ais523> AnMaster: no sane ISP would do that
19:24:48 <ehird> there are no sane ISPs
19:24:50 <ehird> especially in the UK
19:24:56 <ais523> and I don't care about a dynamic IP nearly as much as I care that people can actually make incoming connections on arbitrary ports if I tell them my IP
19:25:09 <ehird> ok, list of sane ISPs: xs4all.
19:25:20 <ehird> probably the best ISP in the UK, from what I grok, is Be
19:25:24 <ehird> but Be aren't available here
19:25:49 <AnMaster> ais523, iirc the TOS says something about only using one computer at the time, yet they ship adsl modem/router to customers, and it's pre-configured for NAT...
19:26:05 <ais523> AnMaster: which ISP is that?
19:26:19 <ais523> I know Virgin Media actually require you to use Windows
19:26:35 <ehird> AnMaster: tele2 pronounces sort of like tell-it-to
19:26:39 <ehird> ais523: SHDKJASHDJKAShdJKASDHKSDAD WHAT
19:26:43 <ais523> I think it's so they aren't sued when their windows-only setup program doesn't work
19:26:55 <ais523> however, the contract doesn't prevent you using a different OS as well
19:26:58 <ehird> but swedes are dirty, so to hell with them
19:27:11 <AnMaster> ehird, the company is Scandinavian to begin with.
19:27:39 <AnMaster> wasn't sure if it was Norwegian or Swedish
19:27:47 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tele2
19:28:31 <ehird> http://images.appshopper.com/screenshots/304/682626.jpg (John Gruber's user interface of the week)
19:28:54 <Sgeo> Is that good or bad?
19:29:02 <ehird> What do you think?
19:29:08 <ehird> AnMaster: of http://daringfireball.net/
19:29:20 <ehird> he... made Markdown. and writes that blog. for a living. it's about macs.
19:29:26 <AnMaster> ehird, however google won't answer "is this person stupid or cool"
19:29:35 <Sgeo> I'd find it usable, if that's all the space available
19:29:36 <ehird> stupid and cool are opposites?
19:29:51 <AnMaster> but I didn't find the precise perfect words
19:30:07 <ehird> "acool" is the cool word.*
19:30:09 <AnMaster> ehird, however that GUI looks a bit cluttered to me
19:30:16 <ehird> ... it's a sarcastic award.
19:32:19 <AnMaster> ehird, those on/off slider thingies doesn't make much sense to me..., first it seems more logical that marker is on item that is active (reverse here), second: what is wrong with check boxes? they are established and while there may be better ways to do it, checkboxes aren't that bad IMO
19:32:29 <ehird> IT'S A SARCASTIC AWARD
19:32:35 <ehird> IT'S AWARDED TO CRAP DESIGNS ;__;
19:32:51 <ehird> this is a touch-screen
19:32:55 <ehird> the ON/OFF is the standard iphone checkbox
19:33:01 <ehird> since it's a lot easier to slide than a checkbox
19:33:28 <AnMaster> well, what about large check boxes?, Is tapping the screen hard?
19:33:56 <ehird> empirically, I find it a lot easier to tap wider-than-high things on a touchscreen
19:34:11 <ehird> to get the same tappability with a checkbox, it'd be a lot taller
19:34:17 <ehird> and thus use more of the limited screen
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19:35:08 <AnMaster> ehird, this sarcastic award, where is more info about it?
19:35:25 <AnMaster> I can't find it on his website.
19:35:28 <ehird> Any post on df.net starting with "User Interface of the Week:".
19:35:58 <AnMaster> users shouldn't need to scroll down, thats an usability problem~
19:36:09 <ehird> yeah I get coughs and sneezes whenever I scroll
19:36:19 <AnMaster> in fact, users should only need to look at the screen, anything more is a usability problem~
19:36:21 <ehird> i need to have four 30" screens in a rectangle
19:36:28 <ehird> to avoid scrolling as much as possible
19:36:32 <ehird> also, I use 7px type, max
19:36:43 <asiekierk> AnMaster: Ok. Just make a NBTV set
19:36:50 <AnMaster> however this raises the privacy issue. since solving the usability issue would require mind reading..
19:37:18 <ehird> i already googled it, there's nothing relevant
19:37:30 <ehird> not even a WP article
19:37:45 <AnMaster> asiekierk, eye movements to navigate would still require more than minimal user effort
19:41:05 <ehird> Cleaning a computer for the lazy: Run program that hogs all of the CPU. Watch fans go to 100% speed. Relax. :P
19:41:14 <ehird> *note: I am not responsible for any damage caused :|
19:43:02 <pikhq> *note: does nothing, unless your fans are really bad or really good.
19:43:14 <ehird> *note: I disclaim my walking to the ground.
19:43:36 <pikhq> Also, 'narrow-band television' is basically ye old mechanical television.
19:44:21 <pikhq> Doesn't take much more than a light bulb, a motor, a disk with holes in it, and a sound card.
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19:46:49 <asiekierk> I wonder if there's any use for NBTV
19:50:32 <ehird> hmm... wonder how long backing up a newly-installed system via ethernet would take
19:51:47 <ehird> hmm... tc seems to manage about 1:38 per gb
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20:02:02 <comex> anyone know why 'noremap <C-0>' doesn't work as expected?
20:02:32 <ais523> at this point, I won't answer because I don't know, and ehird will start extolling the virtues of TECO
20:02:40 <comex> I can map 0, or C-a, but not C-0
20:09:00 <Slereah> http://fuckyoupenguin.blogspot.com/2009/03/tibetan-fox-thinks-hes-better-than-you.html
20:12:09 <ehird> os x supports klingon
20:12:56 <ais523> it almost certainly supports klingon too
20:13:04 <ehird> yeah but does gnome/kde?
20:13:10 <ehird> while you install?
20:14:05 <ais523> well, it isn't installed by default AFAICT
20:14:13 <ais523> presumably they wanted to save space on the CD for more useful things
20:14:29 <ehird> in OS X, you never see any english text apart from "Mac OS X" and the menus in the installation language selection screen.
20:14:38 <ehird> it is clearly far superior. the choice for discerning trekkies.
20:14:50 <ehird> I'm not sure it's an installer option.
20:14:54 <ehird> you might have to do it post-install.
20:15:00 <ais523> well, Ubuntu was specifically designed to install in pretty much any language you wanted
20:15:11 <ehird> Lojban OS X would be fun
20:15:13 <ais523> although klingon doesn't seem ot be in that list
20:15:44 <ais523> anyway, I'd only need to install language-pack-gnome-tlh, language-pack-kde-tlh, and language-pack-tlh
20:15:53 <ais523> and the system would fully support klingon
20:16:19 <ehird> that's retarded, who the hell wants klingon
20:17:02 <ais523> strangely it appears to be an Ubuntu package, not a Debian one
20:17:17 <ehird> http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/02/2009-02-25sl-4.jpg <- wow, snow leopard strips down the number of processors a lot
20:17:27 <ehird> almost all 64-bit, too
20:17:48 <ehird> aalthough the cpu usage diagram doesn't match the list
20:18:30 <fizzie> Maybe it is designed to only show non-scary processes.
20:18:51 <ehird> "Process 1 (callhome) omitted FOR YOUR SAFETY."
20:18:59 <ais523> ehird: processors, or processes?
20:19:12 <ehird> 19:17 ehird: processes
20:19:17 <ais523> also, that's filtered, obviously
20:19:20 <ais523> there's no init in that list
20:19:26 <ehird> there's no init in my list, either
20:19:35 <ais523> nor any other process with UID 1?
20:19:42 <ehird> 1 ?? 0:02.29 /sbin/launchd
20:19:45 <ehird> OS X doesn't use init.
20:19:54 <ehird> (launchd = init + cron + daemontools)
20:20:01 <ais523> I generally refer to any PID 1 process as init
20:20:37 <ais523> init + cron is an interesting combination to have in the same file
20:20:41 <ais523> but I suppose it makes sense
20:20:51 <ais523> does it also contain an atd?
20:21:31 <ais523> ehird: like cron, but only runs once
20:21:35 <ehird> at, batch, atq, atrm -- queue, examine, or delete jobs for later execu-
20:21:42 <ehird> I think that's one of the options in a launchd thingy
20:21:58 <ais523> actually, I'm mildly surprised at and cron are different programs
20:22:13 <ehird> do half a thing and do it acceptably!
20:22:13 <ais523> atd's stuck in my mind because it's been broken on ubuntu-proposed for months
20:22:33 <ais523> despite me telling them exactly where the bug was (although not where to fix it)
20:22:51 <ais523> finding the bug's normally the hard part, though, rather than fixing it
20:23:48 <fizzie> I was going to complain that there seem to be no timing-related things in launchctl man page, but it seems that there are StartCalendarInterval-like properties that can be specified with a .plist file for a job.
20:24:14 <ehird> fizzie: try man launchd
20:24:31 <fizzie> Yes, that's where I got it from.
20:25:23 <ais523> invoke-rc.d: initscript atd, action "start" failed.
20:25:25 <ais523> dpkg: error processing at (--configure):
20:25:26 <ais523> subprocess post-installation script returned error exit status 1
20:25:32 <ais523> happens on every single change to my package configuration
20:25:41 * ais523 thinks that Ubuntu is not very responsive to bug reports
20:25:59 <ehird> Apple are responsive to bug reports, but you don't know because you can't access their bug tracker
20:26:06 <ehird> it's not even "write-only"
20:28:11 <ais523> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/at/+bug/158178
20:29:19 <ais523> I'm actually slightly surprised a bug that manifests on every single change to the package manager hasn't annoyed more people by now
20:29:28 <ais523> maybe at isn't a standard package
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20:32:28 <fizzie> Traditional init is also rather funny; telinit (the control tool) and actual init are a single binary, and unlike other people (who use something like argv[0] to decide how to act) init does "isinit = (getpid() == 1); ... if (!isinit) exit(telinit(p, argc, argv));"
20:45:54 <AnMaster> kde asked me what I wanted to do with a music cd I inserted
20:46:14 <ais523> or that kde devices systray thing?
20:46:30 <AnMaster> well I do use udev, but for cd it shouldn't affect it
20:46:41 <AnMaster> + I have root only no-auto mount in fstab for cd
20:47:07 <ais523> are you sure this was on your computer?
20:47:15 <ais523> I get confused sometimes when sshing around a lkot
20:47:19 <pikhq> AnMaster, I strongly suspect you've got HAL on there.
20:47:30 <AnMaster> also this haven't happened before, I played a cd yesterday with no issues
20:47:44 <ais523> AnMaster: does /usr/lib/hal exist for you?
20:48:26 <ais523> or wherever sbin stuff normally is for you
20:48:30 <ehird> maybe kde has its own version of HAL or whatever
20:48:45 <pikhq> ehird: Not only no but hell no.
20:48:50 <AnMaster> well since it is KDE 3 and I haven't upgraded anything I have no idea
20:48:58 <pikhq> Might have in the KDE 2 days...
20:49:00 <ehird> pikhq: I wouldn't put it past KDE
20:49:01 <AnMaster> I mean last upgraded was ~ 1 week ago
20:49:14 <AnMaster> and I haven't rebooted or restarted X since then
20:49:51 <pikhq> KDE 3 did some of that *kind* of BS... They seem to have wised up since.
20:50:10 <ehird> AnMaster uses KDE 3.
20:50:14 <ehird> Because KDE 4 sucks because:
20:50:20 <ehird> 3) it works too well
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20:50:25 <ehird> At least, that's what I've gleaned from him.
20:50:52 <AnMaster> err it doesn't, I tested it, and I couldn't get it to look the same as kde 3. I *could* get my KDE 3 to look like KDE 2 almost perfectly
20:51:02 <pikhq> 3.5 works rather solidly; only KDE 4.2 has gotten KDE 4 up to the point where it could sanely replace KDE 3.
20:51:21 <ehird> wow, kde 4 cannot look precisely like kde 2!
20:51:33 <ehird> that's basically a crime against humanity
20:51:56 <ais523> KDE 4 still isn't really finished yet, I suspect
20:51:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I fail to see why you are bothered that users have different taste?
20:52:00 <ais523> it'll probably be production-ready around 4.4
20:52:07 <ais523> but 4.2 is at least of releasable quality
20:52:22 <pikhq> I am completely unsurprised that KDE 3 could look like KDE 2 with ease... After all, KDE 3 was little more than a port of KDE 2 to Qt 3.
20:52:23 <AnMaster> ais523, no. I think KDE 4 it will be production ready around KDE 5.0 release
20:52:25 <ehird> AnMaster: it doesn't help that you try and advertise your opinions to others whenever they, say, talk about how they like KDE4.
20:52:54 <pikhq> AnMaster: I'd say it's rather close now...
20:53:03 <AnMaster> ehird, So discussion and expressing opinions is forbidden now?
20:53:21 <pikhq> Hell, my only complaints with it ATM is Amarok being somewhat screwy still, and K3B hasn't been ported yet.
20:53:47 <ehird> No. But "Hey, KDE 4 is quite nice, it does such and such and such." "I don't like KDE4, too bloated, I use KDE 3.14" "Well, okay." <days pass> "Ooh, this is nice about KDE 4, it—" "I don't like KDE4, too bloated, I use KDE 3.14"
20:53:55 <ehird> Repeat ad infinitum, and perhaps you can see why it's goddamn annoying.
20:54:06 <pikhq> K3B = KDE Burn, Baby, Burn.
20:54:30 <AnMaster> pikhq, well though I very seldom use k3b, when I do want to burn a cd I use it...
20:54:54 <pikhq> It's either that or crack open cdrecord.
20:54:59 <AnMaster> easier than checking the syntax/name for $current_cdrecord_replacement
20:55:15 <AnMaster> I think I managed to get the original one back.
20:55:42 <pikhq> cdrecord/cdrkit isn't hard to remember the syntax for if you're only using it to burn ISOs...
20:55:58 <pikhq> cdrecord dev=/dev/scd0 foo.iso; Whoo.
20:56:01 <ehird> Heh, hearing cdrecord reminded me of a guy in #slicehost who was basically in internet-tears because his parents were complaining about him about something like spending too much time on the computer, and how they didn't understand that he maintained a "vital part of linux infrastructure" (= he contributed to a cd burning library that I've never heard of)
20:56:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, well usually I don't just burn ISOs
20:56:23 <pikhq> Most of what I burn is ISOs.
20:56:29 <ehird> Jorg schilling is crazy
20:56:43 <pikhq> And in the rare case I'm not, mkisofs is probably sufficient.
20:56:43 <ehird> all he does is go around all day saying how all non-original cdrecords are evil and broken
20:56:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, I need to remember mkisofs and/or how on earth to create music cds...
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20:57:00 <ais523> ehird: "basically in internet-tears"?
20:57:03 <pikhq> I don't think I've burned a music CD since middle school.
20:57:16 <ehird> ais523: You come up with a better word. :P
20:57:16 <AnMaster> ehird, err I'm *forced* to agree with him. the cdrkit fails to burn correct cd-rw in my drive
20:57:17 <fizzie> I was going to mention that it's Jörg, not Jorg
20:57:21 <AnMaster> the original cdrecord works fine
20:57:28 <ais523> ehird: I think that either he was in internet-tears, or he wasn't
20:57:32 <AnMaster> cdrkit just results in unreadable cds
20:57:33 <ehird> fizzie: that's a non-original name!
20:57:39 <ehird> I'm making fun of him, see. <-- excuse
20:57:44 <ais523> I burn capacitors and diodes more often than CDs, probably
20:57:44 <pikhq> AnMaster: Quite bizzare, considering cdrkit is a fork of cdrecord.
20:57:48 <ais523> although not all that much recently
20:57:51 <ehird> ais523: Schrödinger's internet tears
20:58:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, yes, and in one case a erase of the cd-rw didn't even work...
20:59:27 <AnMaster> No definitions were found for Freeow.
20:59:31 <pikhq> H2G2 reference, misspelt.
20:59:49 <pikhq> Don't recall the right spelling.
20:59:53 <AnMaster> hm... now that you mentions H2G2 it *does* sound slightly familiar
21:01:56 <fizzie> So that was quite close.
21:05:00 <AnMaster> fizzie, in which of the books? and context?
21:06:14 <fizzie> The Judiciary Pag, when pronouncing Krikkit's sentence at that trial thing.
21:06:31 <ehird> isn't that from Mostly Harmless?
21:06:35 <ehird> that was one fucked up book
21:06:48 <ehird> while since I read h2g2
21:07:14 <fizzie> The whole Krikkit/Hactar plot is in book 3, yes.
21:08:11 <fizzie> He scratched his crotch reflectively. "Freeeow," he said. He took another sip of water, then held it up to the light and frowned at it. He twisted it round. "Hey, is there something in this water?" he said. "Er, no, m'lud," said the Court Usher who had brought it to him, rather nervously. "Then take it away," snapped Judiciary Pag, "and put something in it. I got an idea."
21:08:18 <fizzie> That's a longer quote.
21:09:21 <fizzie> The character does have a habit of similar noises. Later on, on the beach: "Weeeeelaaaaah!" said Zipo Bibrok 5 / 108, and you would have had to have been there to know exactly why he said this.
21:10:42 <fizzie> I think that's supposed to be something like 5 x 10^8 or some-such; I'm not sure why it's a / there. Maybe this is some sort of OCR digitalization.
21:10:54 <AnMaster> you don't really remember what is in which book when you have an omnibus edition
21:11:10 <ehird> yeah, I have an omnibus
21:11:32 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel,_Escher,_Bach
21:12:42 <AnMaster> ehird, Cambridge's dictionary - Advanced <something I forgot> Edition is way larger and thicker though
21:12:57 <fizzie> I think I've mentioned this before, but on ircnet's #douglasadams we used to have a game where a bot pasted a small snippet (three lines, I think), and awarded a point to whoever was the quickest to correctly enter 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5, depending on which book the quote was from.
21:13:00 <ehird> that is not really comparable, AnMaster :P
21:13:06 <AnMaster> ehird, but the largest one I have would be one at 3 kg...
21:13:31 <fizzie> Since book1 and book4 start almost identically, sometimes the game was a bit difficult.
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21:15:30 <pikhq> Ah, I remember when I first got my H2G2 omnibus for Christmas...
21:15:38 <pikhq> I read the whole thing in 12 hours.
21:15:40 <ehird> the craziest thing about my GEB?
21:15:42 <ehird> it's a fucking PAPERBACK
21:15:50 <ehird> it is the biggest paperback ever
21:16:01 <ehird> when you pick it up, a few gravitational collapses happen
21:16:16 <ehird> and the spine is your mortal enemy
21:16:18 <oklopol> what did you read in 12 hours?
21:16:21 <ais523> ehird: mine's a paperback too
21:16:36 <ehird> ais523: it's awful!
21:16:46 <AnMaster> I don't have GEB, so I can't comment on it
21:16:59 <ehird> the book itself is great
21:17:09 <AnMaster> ehird, also how come you haven't yet asked what the 3 kg book is?
21:17:22 <ehird> i assumed you'd tell me, AnMaster
21:17:31 <ehird> 20:15 pikhq: Ah, I remember when I first got my H2G2 omnibus for Christmas...
21:17:31 <ehird> 20:15 pikhq: I read the whole thing in 12 hours.
21:17:32 <AnMaster> ehird, so do you want to know or not?
21:17:35 <ehird> surely YOU have scrollback...
21:17:43 <fizzie> I think my heaviest book here is Kreyszig's Advanced Engineering Mathematics, 8th Edition (the paperback version, no less). Not that it's especially huge, mind you. I can't seem to find the specs, but the 9th edition hardcover has an amazon.com shipping weight of 2.2 kg.
21:17:53 <AnMaster> ehird, complete history of the US airforce (yes I'm very interested in aircraft stuff as you probably know)
21:18:14 <ehird> the heaviest book of all time is SICP. SICP is the only acceptable book. All others cannot achieve the SATORI given by SICP. Have _you_ read your SICP today?
21:18:49 <AnMaster> ehird, err SATORI? aspell likes it so I guess it has to mean something, but firefox just segfaulted....
21:18:59 <ehird> SATORI, n. The unique property given by SICP.
21:19:03 <ehird> SICP, n. The book giving SATORI.
21:19:26 <pikhq> Hmm. Heaviest book I've got here is either my H2G2 omnibus or my Emacs manual.
21:19:33 <AnMaster> ah google was more helpful... now that firefox restarted... "(Zen Buddhism) a state of sudden spiritual enlightenment "
21:20:01 <fizzie> They should bind TAOCP together in a single book, that'd be quite a brick.
21:20:06 <AnMaster> pikhq, you have a printed emacs manual?
21:21:06 <ehird> fizzie: in PAPERBACK
21:21:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, would it beat Tolkins' famous trilogy in omnibus?
21:21:18 <ehird> pikhq: do you keep trying to use emacs keybindings on it
21:21:51 <fizzie> An eyeball-based comparison says that my three-book-hardcover TAOCP is a bit larger in volume than my three-book-hardcover LOTR.
21:22:01 <AnMaster> for emacs manual I actually think the context sensitive help inside emacs would be way faste
21:22:44 <ehird> SICP is actually NP-complete. Reading it requires a SATORI-card.
21:22:48 <fizzie> I can't be sure about this, but I think the individual books are also heavier, weight-wise. Certainly content-wise.
21:23:14 <AnMaster> fizzie, well content-wise of course...
21:24:29 <AnMaster> ehird, btw from google image search: http://ak.buy.com/db_assets/large_images/594/202468594.jpg
21:24:41 <ehird> is that the spine?
21:24:44 <AnMaster> really doesn't show how large or thick
21:25:11 <AnMaster> ehird, the seal thing is embossed thingy, like sewn onto the cover...
21:25:18 <ehird> so that's not the spine
21:25:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well it is larger than A4 too. Wait I can measure the size
21:25:54 <ehird> THE SPINE IS LARGER THAN AN A4 PIECE OF PAPER?
21:25:57 <ehird> ONE BOOK? WHAT THE FUCK.
21:26:08 <ehird> and this is PAPERBACK?!
21:26:21 <ais523> ehird: there's a famous picture of what the OOXML standard looked like printed out
21:27:46 <AnMaster> ehird, spine, and fake leather on outside
21:28:06 <ehird> how many pages is it?
21:28:51 <AnMaster> 624, but the paper is very high quality thick and glossy
21:29:11 <AnMaster> well not photo level glossy, but slightly glossy
21:29:14 <ehird> AnMaster: publish Finnegan's Wake like that
21:29:28 <ehird> (or maybe an ayn rand book is longer)
21:31:34 <AnMaster> ok found a pic showing how thick it was
21:31:56 <AnMaster> ehird, the US airforce one is not as thick as it is large in other directions mainly
21:32:26 <AnMaster> I mean I think I have seen a dictionary thicker than it, but not as large format. I have to have it on the top shelf, doesn't fit elsewhere...
21:32:59 <fizzie> Kreyszig: 25.5 cm high, 20 cm wide, 6 cm thick; number of pages... uh, last page is I-20. Before I-1 there's A97. They're not making this easy. Before A1 comes page 1156. And before page 1 there's page xvi. So I guess the lower bound is 16+1156+97+20 = 1289 pages.
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21:33:58 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is *far* from the 34 cm high and 23 wide...
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21:34:26 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's still >2 kg, though. Dense stuff.
21:34:44 <fizzie> oklopol: A reasonable percentage of it, but not comprehensively.
21:35:04 <AnMaster> also the page count I gave above was large numbered page. So add uh *checks* 4 to that
21:35:22 <oklopol> fizzie: are you an advanced engineer then?
21:35:32 <oklopol> advanced engineering mathematician
21:35:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, "Kreyszig"? I can't find any book with that name with google
21:35:47 <ehird> of course it's a name
21:35:52 <fizzie> AnMaster: I did mention the complete name of the book, earlier.
21:35:55 <ehird> tons of textbooky things are referred to by their name
21:35:59 <ehird> by their author's, names
21:36:06 <fizzie> Advanced Engineering Mathematics, 8th Edition.
21:36:14 <ais523> ehird: tons of textbooky things are referred to by their name too, though
21:36:19 <ais523> so you were right first time as well
21:36:26 <fizzie> oklopol: I'm not very advanced. Maybe I should've read more.
21:36:41 <ehird> People have cited TAOCP as Knuth, in my experience.
21:36:50 <ehird> SICP is, of course, [b]The Sussman[/b].
21:36:52 <oklopol> i just refer to books by their isbn
21:37:07 <ehird> But if you say [b]The Sussman[/b] too much, your [b]Satori[/b] is revoked.
21:37:41 <fizzie> While looking for Kreyszig, I also came across "Seven-place values of trigonometric functions", "compiled by dr. J. Peters". This is a small book, but on the other hand it's useless too.
21:37:55 <AnMaster> ehird, http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/cover.jpg lists three authors btw.
21:38:08 <ehird> Abelson is filthy traitor of Forced Indentation of Code.
21:38:15 <oklopol> fizzie: lol just a massive list? :D
21:38:19 <ehird> Julie Sussman is The Sussman's alter-ego.
21:38:38 <ehird> Everything I say is indisputable. Brb ->
21:38:46 <AnMaster> 10000 random numbers or something?
21:38:58 <fizzie> But on the front inner cover it has a taped-on label: "This book has been presented to Finland by the Government of the United States of America, under Public Law 265, 81st Congress, as an expression of the friendship and good will which the people of the United States hold for the people of Finland."
21:39:00 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but it should be rather thick and heavy right?
21:39:52 <fizzie> That's what it says; I don't know what it means.
21:39:57 <oklopol> fizzie: so they love us enough to write a 2 minute python script to generate the table?
21:40:21 <fizzie> "Originally published in Germany as Siebenstellige Werte der Trigonometrischen Funktionen"; Copyright, 1918, 1938.
21:40:22 <AnMaster> fizzie, a joke label on your copy? If it is second hand I'd guess so
21:40:43 <fizzie> I assume it was donated to our university library; that's where I got it from.
21:40:49 <oklopol> probably not much python scripting back then.
21:41:16 <AnMaster> well googling for "Public Law 265, 81st Congress" did return relevant results...
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21:41:45 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
21:42:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, btw I need to borrow your frying pan. Firefox segfaulted randomly a lot today... And KDE decided to start asking about CDs that I insert...
21:43:31 <ais523> AnMaster: maybe you caught a virus that silently replaced Linux with Windows whilst trying to keep everything looking the same so you didn't notice
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21:44:02 <lament> ais523: was it you who won the wolfram thing?
21:44:07 <AnMaster> ais523, then they should provide it for windows as a replacement for cygwin. I mean I done lots of POSIX specific programming today
21:44:45 <ais523> why do you ask, by the way?
21:45:58 -!- neldoret1 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
21:46:08 <AnMaster> also wth, yesterday xine refused to show track names for this cd, and I knew it was in freedb (checked with cd-info), this morning it showed them. Now it doesn't again...
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21:46:30 <AnMaster> ais523, either windows or centos. Hard to say...
21:46:44 <ais523> AnMaster: what does uname display?
21:46:55 <AnMaster> Linux tux.lan 2.6.27-gentoo-r8-1 #1 Sat Jan 31 04:55:36 CET 2009 x86_64 AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 3300+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
21:47:08 <AnMaster> which is what I would expect it to say
21:47:32 <fizzie> They have been thourough and faked that, too.
21:47:57 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's a windsor sauce pan, not a frying pan. but here you are. ===\___/
21:48:24 <AnMaster> oerjan, question about usage, it isn't "swats", what is the right word?
21:49:37 <AnMaster> you can't really "swat" with a sauce pan
21:49:53 * AnMaster hits Firefox with oerjan's sauce pan ===\___/
21:49:56 * AnMaster hits KDE with oerjan's sauce pan ===\___/
21:50:02 * AnMaster hits xine with oerjan's sauce pan ===\___/
21:50:12 * AnMaster ahnds the sauce pan back to oerjan
21:50:14 <oerjan> but i think "clobbers" is also a nice word
21:50:41 <oerjan> i see you used it well ===\/\/
21:50:52 <AnMaster> also linux can fake uname. How else would this work:
21:50:53 <AnMaster> Linux tux.lan 2.6.27-gentoo-r8-1 #1 Sat Jan 31 04:55:36 CET 2009 i686 AMD Sempron(tm) Processor 3300+ AuthenticAMD GNU/Linux
21:51:46 <ais523> AnMaster: is there a 32-bit version of linux32?
21:51:48 * AnMaster turns oerjan's sauce pan upside down and hits KDE again ===/^^^\
21:52:02 <AnMaster> well there is probably some nifty unicode for line at top
21:52:29 <ais523> oh, there is, and I have it installed
21:52:42 <AnMaster> oerjan, so the corrugated ^^^ is just a rendering issue
21:52:54 <AnMaster> when you turn it you will see it is perfectly flat
21:53:01 * AnMaster hands the saucepan back to oerjan
21:53:14 * oerjan checks the saucepan carefully ===\___/
21:53:33 <AnMaster> ais523, that makes no sense on 32-bit linux
21:53:43 <AnMaster> it only makes sense if you can run more than one ABI
21:54:00 <ais523> ais523@dell:~$ setarch i686
21:54:02 <ais523> ais523@dell:~$ uname -a
21:54:03 <ais523> Linux dell 2.6.27-11-generic #1 SMP Thu Jan 29 19:24:39 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/Linux
21:54:18 <AnMaster> ais523, it doesn't change shell?
21:54:20 <ais523> admittedly, it doesn't change anything
21:54:30 <ais523> just the new shell looked identical to the old one
21:54:46 <ais523> why would you expect it to look different?
21:55:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I almost always use the linux32 symlink with "chroot"
21:55:16 <AnMaster> ais523, so I wasn't aware of that it defaulted to "new shell"
21:55:37 <AnMaster> ais523, setarch --help lists more interesting stuff
21:58:33 <AnMaster> ais523, my setarch has all these options: http://paste.lisp.org/display/76852 maybe it varies between platforms
21:58:55 <ais523> setarch changes the uname system call that programs use to decide what libraries to load, etc
21:59:13 <ais523> and I have the same version of setarch as you, more or less
21:59:24 <ais523> linux32 is a symlink to setarch, or a wrapper around it
21:59:27 <AnMaster> ais523, hm. How does it change the uname system call?
21:59:43 <ais523> I don't know, presumably there's an API for doing that sort of thing
22:00:14 <AnMaster> it isn't LD_PRELOAD since it works on statically linked busybox
22:00:19 <AnMaster> $ setarch i686 /bin/busybox uname -a
22:00:19 <AnMaster> Linux tux.lan 2.6.27-gentoo-r8-1 #1 Sat Jan 31 04:55:36 CET 2009 i686 unknown
22:00:30 <AnMaster> Linux tux.lan 2.6.27-gentoo-r8-1 #1 Sat Jan 31 04:55:36 CET 2009 x86_64 unknown
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22:01:06 <AnMaster> this is great. Linux has *split personalities*
22:01:20 <AnMaster> int personality(unsigned long persona);
22:03:09 <ais523> AnMaster: that's legal
22:03:21 <AnMaster> ais523, shouldn't there be some type name for the enum somewhere?
22:03:23 <ais523> trailing commas are allowed inside enums in C
22:03:25 <oerjan> <ehird> The swatter requires oerjan-nature. :(
22:03:28 <fizzie> It's for people who have a #define rash.
22:03:40 <AnMaster> ais523, and the comma wasn't the issue...
22:03:56 <Deewiant> Alternatively, smallest integer that fits them all
22:04:50 <ais523> oh, and the lack of typename, I think it's legal
22:04:56 <ais523> I'm not sure if no typename and no variable is legal
22:04:56 <ais523> but enum { blah = 0, } foo; is certainly legal
22:04:57 <AnMaster> ais523, from /usr/include/sys/personality.h (but not as short)
22:04:57 <ais523> just like struct { int bar; } quux; is legal
22:04:57 <AnMaster> I mean what use would struct { int bar; }; be ?!
22:04:57 <AnMaster> well for enum it could still be used though
22:05:04 <fizzie> Nothing, but for enum it is legal.
22:05:07 <AnMaster> ais523, just I would have expected either enum foo { ... }; or a typedef
22:05:45 <AnMaster> no docs what the flags do there
22:05:59 <AnMaster> STICKY_TIMEOUTS, WHOLE_SECONDS?
22:06:11 <AnMaster> I mean ADDR_LIMIT_3GB is quite self explaining...
22:07:13 <ais523> AnMaster: it disables an optimisation, normally if your computer isn't doing anything for a while it uses the excess processing power to do a bit of timetravel, small fractions of each second are sent back to kernel.org where they can be stockpiled for restoring the Earth in the case of an apocalypse
22:07:28 <ais523> some people don't like programs that call home, so the option's there to turn it off
22:07:38 <AnMaster> ais523, that humor is just too absurd...
22:08:24 <ais523> AnMaster: heh, I've just realised what that would do
22:08:32 <ais523> it would mean that NULL would become a legal pointer-to-data
22:09:05 <AnMaster> ais523, you can still on x86 mmap() at 0, for example if you are going to mess with vm86()
22:10:35 <AnMaster> ais523, atm I'm grepping kernel source to find WHOLE_SECONDS and STICKY_TIMEOUTS... the other flags I can make quite educated guesses about
22:12:08 * oerjan chops a second in two and donates half to science
22:12:17 <AnMaster> it is only mentioned in Documentation and header file
22:12:30 <fizzie> On a C64 you have to be tricky of you want to write to the first two bytes; there's memory-mapped registers at locations 0 and 1.
22:13:21 <ais523> on a PIC, reading from or writing to address 0 is how you do indirect addressing
22:13:39 <AnMaster> shouldn't the constant be used on the source
22:14:11 <fizzie> Yes. Address 0 controls the read/read-write mode of address 1, while 1 has a couple of rather random bits related to the "MMU" and other stuff.
22:15:24 <AnMaster> ok STICKY_TIMEOUTS hit something
22:15:41 <fizzie> Actually it's called "processor port", so they might be implemented in the CPU; maybe they toggle some CPU pins or something. It's been a couple of years since I last even saw a 6510.
22:16:23 <fizzie> Yes, it seems that the address 0/1 stuff is pretty much what differentiates a 6510 (used in C64) from a 6502; there's a 6-bit I/O port in it, controlled by that register.
22:16:25 <AnMaster> it seems related to select() timeout
22:18:06 <AnMaster> <ais523> it would mean that NULL would become a legal pointer-to-data
22:18:36 <AnMaster> error = do_mmap(NULL, 0, PAGE_SIZE, PROT_READ | PROT_EXEC,
22:19:24 <AnMaster> I didn't even know linux emulated that ABI
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22:27:02 <ehird> 20:57 AnMaster: not sure what went wrong
22:27:05 <ehird> well, what happened?
22:27:09 <ehird> what was the issue?
22:27:26 <AnMaster> ehird, do you mean the KDE thing, the Firefox thing or the xine thing?
22:28:28 <ehird> I should make the title configurable
22:28:34 <ehird> "/dev/fd/63" is not very helpful
22:28:48 <ehird> http://paste.lisp.org/display/76853
22:29:12 <ehird> it came up as Anonymous; haven't you set LISPPASTE_USER?
22:29:32 <AnMaster> ehird, no, I don't like polluting our environment
22:29:49 <ehird> AnMaster: you can just $EDITOR `which lisppaste`
22:29:52 <ehird> LISPPASTE_USER=AnMaster
22:30:10 <ehird> $EDITOR /path/to/lisppaste
22:30:18 <ehird> although I don't know why you want a command line tool if not for PATH convenienc
22:30:48 <AnMaster> ~/bin/lisppaste is a symlink to ~/irc/freenode/esoteric/ehird/lisppaste
22:31:02 <ehird> and ~/bin is in your path is it not?
22:31:13 <AnMaster> ehird, that would be insecure!
22:31:23 <ais523> AnMaster: is your home partition mounted noexec?
22:31:23 <ehird> yes, you could give yourself a virus
22:31:43 <AnMaster> ais523, but it might be a good idea
22:31:46 <ehird> DON'T GIVE HIM IDE—
22:32:05 <ais523> ehird: even if I gave AnMaster an IDE, he probably wouldn't use it
22:32:09 <ehird> AnMaster: do you think adding paste annotation is a worthy feature?
22:32:12 <ehird> I'm not sure how I'd do it
22:32:21 <ehird> maybe if you give a number instead of or with a language
22:32:23 <ehird> it'd annotate that paste
22:32:36 <ehird> % lisppaste 76853 <(setarch --help)
22:32:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I shall make a language called 76853
22:32:59 <ehird> AnMaster: you have to get p.lisp.org to support it
22:33:08 <AnMaster> (because I can't think anything else up right now)
22:33:57 <ehird> [ehird:/Previous Systems.localized/2009-02-11_1200/Users/ehird/Documents/Code] % find <-- searching for old code gives me a wonderous prompt of verbosity
22:35:46 <ehird> AnMaster: it's the system before my upgrade to leopard
22:35:48 <AnMaster> I remember that back on pre-OS X and old windows. All the reinstalls
22:36:05 <AnMaster> no I'm not just attacking OS X
22:36:09 <ehird> It's a nice excuse to clean out my system :P
22:36:11 <AnMaster> I'm attacking lots of other OS too
22:36:15 <ehird> Also, upgrades are generally flaky on most OSes.
22:36:24 <ehird> Even Linux can be a bit odd after a full distro release upgrade.
22:36:25 <AnMaster> like Windows and many linux distros
22:36:34 <AnMaster> ehird, exactly. Which is why I prefer rolling release
22:36:41 <AnMaster> they have good upgrade handling
22:36:44 <ehird> Rolling release is pretty good, but not really commercializable
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22:36:57 <ehird> commercial software is pretty much a ghetto of releases
22:37:06 <AnMaster> well I guess you can make more money that wya
22:37:19 <AnMaster> ehird, what distros apart from arch and gentoo use rolling release?
22:37:24 <ehird> None that I know of.
22:37:32 <ais523> ehird: rolling release is trivially commercialisable, just make someone rent the OS not buy it
22:37:35 <AnMaster> what about that one with insane paths
22:37:44 <ais523> in fact, many computer games are becoming episodic nowadays
22:37:48 <ehird> I would call it 'sane'
22:37:54 <ehird> ais523: Ugh, I would hate to rent an OS
22:38:01 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, lets ignore that wording for a second
22:38:40 <AnMaster> since they have to be able to take it back somehow
22:38:43 <ehird> an EULA is as far as I'll go for digital purchasing thingies
22:39:05 <AnMaster> I wouldn't accept an EULA that either isn't GPL or very short
22:39:07 <ehird> I'm not happy with OS X's EULA forbidding installation on non-macs, either
22:39:13 <ehird> AnMaster: GPL is a license, not an EULA
22:39:29 <AnMaster> ehird, true, but it does partly fill the same function
22:39:30 <ehird> licenses just cover distribution, EULAs cover use
22:40:25 <ais523> sometimes people using windows auto-installer-creators put the GPL in the EULA slot
22:40:35 <ais523> because the installer can't grasp that an EULA might not be wanted
22:40:36 <AnMaster> lets see. I haven't bought an OS since I got my ibook ages ago
22:40:41 <ehird> Hm. A game called "Stalin VS Martians".
22:41:02 <AnMaster> ais523, ah yes indeed I have seen that
22:41:05 <ehird> It seems to be about Stalin, fighting martians.
22:41:27 <pikhq> I've also seen auto-installer things just put in the EULA "This work is licensed under the GPL."...
22:41:38 <ehird> http://stalinvsmartians.com/en/
22:41:39 <pikhq> So, presumably you agree that it is, in fact, GPL'd.
22:41:42 <ehird> Trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGnNbKfpx9k
22:41:45 <ehird> It seems to be a RTS
22:42:21 <ehird> I never thought I'd see a cheerful 3D Stalin dancing.
22:44:28 <ehird> The trailer appears to be un-serious-ly.
22:44:51 <ehird> http://stalinvsmartians.com/screenshot0003.jpg
22:44:57 <ehird> I pre-emptively deem it Game of the Year.
22:45:57 <AnMaster> is that trailer made by the company or as a joke by someone else?
22:46:18 <ehird> [[Vopros: Can we play as Stalin himself?
22:46:18 <ehird> Otvet: Yes, but not from the start. Stalin is our commander and he gives us orders. Closer to the grand finale he will appear on the battlefield as a playable unit - a huge colossus, five times higher than any other creature. Just like it was in the real life.]]
22:47:02 <ehird> Three companies, apparently.
22:47:18 <ehird> "A BWF/DREAMLORE/N-GAME CO-PRODUCTION".
22:47:20 <ehird> Never heard of them.
22:47:35 <ehird> http://bwf-game.com/
22:47:39 <ehird> http://www.dreamloregames.com/
22:47:39 <ehird> http://www.ngsdev.com/
22:47:45 <ehird> Latter two are in russian.
22:48:13 <ehird> http://www.nabble.com/-scala--URGENT%3A-Please-read-if-you-have-any-information-about-Tony-Morris-to22462911.html
22:49:00 <ehird> "Update: We've received information about Tony's home address that we believe to be current. The police are sending a team there now."
22:49:03 <ehird> Let's hope it's not too late...
22:49:21 <ehird> Agh, he's left on his bike...
22:49:23 <lament> he left on a motorbike
22:49:31 <ehird> lament: hello, ehird
22:51:12 <AnMaster> ehird, they arrived 1 second apart here
22:51:34 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly less from lament's point of view
22:52:36 <ehird> After me and another mentioned it:
22:52:36 <ehird> 21:51 Eridius: this discussion is already in #haskell-blah
22:52:48 <AnMaster> ehird, btw that thing on nabble... I never heard of this person
22:52:56 <ehird> He's in the scala/haskell etc communities
22:55:08 <AnMaster> ehird, btw what is nabble exactly?
22:55:08 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know what system var to set to add to gcc's default include path?
22:55:13 <ehird> nabble is a mailing list archiver
22:55:18 <ehird> that was posted to the scala mailing list
22:55:29 <AnMaster> ehird, no not off the top of my head
22:55:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I would use command line instead
22:55:58 <ehird> I'm installing with RubyGems, so
22:56:02 <comex> why is vim indenting two tabs when I press enter
22:56:11 <ehird> you have autoindent set
22:56:18 <comex> autoindent: uses the indent from the previous line.
22:56:43 <AnMaster> ehird, modify the file that calls gcc?
22:56:54 <comex> :set nocindent worked
22:56:55 <comex> but not from vimrc
22:56:56 <AnMaster> also check if rubygem has a way to do it
22:57:08 <AnMaster> comex, does the file include one of those mode lines?
22:57:28 <ehird> aha, C_INCLUDE_PATH
22:57:40 <AnMaster> ehird, is that the rubygem one?
22:57:49 <oerjan> comex: maybe it's set automatically from a language-specific setup file?
22:59:49 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, btw what is nabble exactly?
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23:04:19 <comex> it takes me to the line with an error
23:04:51 <ais523> comex: what editor doesn't do that?
23:05:09 <ais523> even BC++ for Windows did that ten years ago, and it was pretty rubbish
23:09:31 <comex> any IDE will do it, but vim grabs the line from the make error
23:09:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: http://www.nabble.com/-scala--URGENT%3A-Please-read-if-you-have-any-information-about-Tony-Morris-to22462911.html
23:09:40 <ehird> (just linking in case there's anything you can do)
23:09:43 <comex> ais523: I don't use emacs
23:11:30 <ehird> Sierpinski shows up everywhere.
23:12:18 <oerjan> dobblego from #haskell, apparently
23:12:29 <ehird> Also on programming reddit.
23:15:20 <ais523> <thisisdaveinhell> I hate to break this to you but they took tin foil off the market years ago, its all aluminum now, the tin stuff worked.
23:15:25 <ais523> best conspiracy theory ever
23:15:31 <comex> http://www.amzi.com/articles/prolog_under_the_hood.htm
23:15:34 <comex> should 'ail.' read 'fail.'?
23:15:46 <ehird> hurnan should read human, too.
23:16:04 <psygnisfive> the reminds me of a joke some irish comedian told
23:16:28 <psygnisfive> "whats this 'aluminum foil' americans use? noone says 'aluminum foil', thats all wrong! everyone knows its said 'tin foil'."
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23:18:14 <oerjan> my brief browsings on the stuff make me believe a tinfoil hat is a useless mind control ray stopper, as the open bottom prevents it from being an efficient faraday cage
23:18:34 <oerjan> if you want to be safe, you need a tinfoil burka
23:19:48 <oerjan> oh and closed at the bottom
23:20:01 <oerjan> i guess steel shoes would do
23:20:32 * oerjan googles for tinfoil burka and gets several hits
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23:48:01 <ehird> psygnisfive: what's that formula, again?
23:48:29 <ehird> [ (x `band` y) == 0 | x <- [0..w], y <- [0..h] ]
23:48:36 <ehird> where band = bitwise and.
23:48:53 <psygnisfive> yah but you dont want [ (band x y) == 0 ...]
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23:49:15 <oerjan> that should be a condition, not the result
23:49:24 <ehird> I was using mine to draw a bitmap.
23:49:29 <ehird> Where False = black and True = white.
23:50:30 <ehird> Well, you know w and h.
23:50:37 <ehird> So you take w elements, and go down one.
23:50:48 <oerjan> [[(x `band` y) == 0 | x <- [0..w]] | y <- [0..h]] might be better
23:51:15 <psygnisfive> not a list of what points are T and what are false
23:51:50 <psygnisfive> anyway you obviously dont need to code it like that
23:52:02 * oerjan starts swatting psygnisfive then thinks better of it
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23:52:14 <ehird> sierpinski :: Integer -> Integer -> [(Integer,Integer)]
23:52:15 <ehird> sierpinski w h = [ (x,y) | x <- [0..w], y <- [0..h], x .&. y == 0 ]
23:52:25 <ehird> Now to write the rest ->
23:52:34 <ehird> Very beautiful formula, though.
23:52:38 <ehird> Even nicer than the chaos game.
23:53:05 <psygnisfive> i odnt know haskell's image generating utilities
23:53:14 <ehird> just generate console output :P
23:53:25 <psygnisfive> i suppose. but i dont know how to do that either :D
23:54:10 <oerjan> or putStr after you combine everything
23:54:27 <ehird> sierpinski' :: Integer -> Integer -> [[Bool]]
23:54:27 <ehird> sierpinski' w h = [ [ x .&. y == 0 | x <- [0..w] ] | y <- [0..h] ]
23:54:35 <psygnisfive> i suppose actually you could just do something like... build the appropriate [[Char]]s and then map putChar
23:54:45 <ehird> map putChar = putStr, duh.
23:58:45 <psygnisfive> something so simple as &(N,N) gives you the sierpinski gasket
23:58:49 <oerjan> putStr . unlines . map (map (\b -> if b then '*' else ' ')) $ sierpinski' w h
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