00:05:45 <pikhq> fizzie: Well, SIFR seems to do absolutely nothing here.
00:06:10 <pikhq> Ah well. Means that things won't find a way to fuck with my font setting.
00:06:41 <AnMaster> <ehirdghost> "Actionscript inside of each Flash file then draws that text in your chosen typeface at a 6 point size and scales it up until it fits snugly inside the Flash movie. " <-- Why not do it in INTERCAL instead. Really it would make perfect sense for an esolang. But for this?...
00:07:00 <pikhq> (a nice serif font with thin lines; rather nice to read at a decent DPI)
00:07:00 <fizzie> sIFR does nothing with noscript, either, but still.
00:07:15 <pikhq> I don't have noscript. Just AdBlock...
00:07:26 <AnMaster> I use both noscript and adblock plus
00:07:35 <AnMaster> and have no flash or java plugins
00:07:39 <pikhq> Noscript doesn't work with Conkeror.
00:08:00 <fizzie> "sIFR runs fine under other extensions like AdBlock"; that shouldn't be related.
00:08:29 <pikhq> Mouseless browsing.
00:09:04 <pikhq> And it's XULrunner based, so just about everything works anyways.
00:09:17 <pikhq> Emacs for Gecko, rather.
00:09:20 <ehirdghost> I am not sure why that would elicit a "why" from AnMaster.
00:09:29 <pikhq> It's not been a Firefox extension for a couple of years.
00:09:30 <ehirdghost> pikhq: It's rather more Firefox than just Gecko
00:09:40 <fizzie> Anyway; sIFR is not the stupidest thing I've seen (I mean, it's not like placing body text in an image, for example; and they strongly advise against using it for body text, anyway), just silley.
00:09:58 <pikhq> Which is Gecko with the ability to load arbitrary XUL...
00:10:06 <SimonRC> We do things by pulling little computer programs across the world
00:10:32 <fizzie> Soon we'll have intelligent agents running around!
00:11:28 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, duh. read what he said above
00:11:41 <ehirdghost> 23:10 SimonRC: We do things by pulling little computer programs across the world
00:12:13 <SimonRC> yeah, we live in the future
00:12:23 <ehirdghost> I am fairly sure we live in the present, SimonRC.
00:12:38 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, no. You are a ghost. You don't live
00:12:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: By the way, we've been pulling little computer programs across the world for stuff since at *least* the invention of Javascript. ;)
00:13:07 <pikhq> Probably longer, if you count, say, UUCP.
00:13:18 <SimonRC> I am not certain, but I think I was thinking this before Munroe made a comic about it
00:13:34 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, I chose to ignore that pun and instead point out that is not valid grammar.
00:14:28 <AnMaster> also why is "I never meta<something> I <something>" supposed to be funny? It is a rather lame pun IMO.
00:15:39 <fizzie> Incidentally, how do the licensing terms go; if I have a copy of OS X, can I use some of the bundled fonts on a different computar? (I'm not sure I want to, just hypothetically speaking.)
00:16:04 <fizzie> Oh, sorry, I meant CANTOR-UPPER.
00:16:05 <ehirdghost> fizzie: I'm not sure. There's no DRM or anything; I don't think anyone cares.
00:16:44 <AnMaster> it is noway near "computer" when you pronounce it
00:16:44 <ehirdghost> fizzie: I don't think there is anything in the EULA or whatnot.
00:17:00 <ehirdghost> fizzie: So it'd just be standard copyright law; if you're using it on another computer you own, fair use, probably.
00:17:06 <pikhq> fizzie: Assuming the computer in question supports TrueType or OpenType, yeah.
00:17:25 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, what if you use it in a document and that cause it to be bundled...
00:17:35 <ehirdghost> Oh, all fonts let you bundle them in PDFs and whatnot, I think/
00:17:41 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, say a document with the entire UTF-8 chart :D
00:17:45 <pikhq> Most any sane one, at least.
00:17:53 <AnMaster> so end user can extract it all
00:17:57 <fizzie> Yay; if that's the truedness, there's some form of common sense left.
00:18:08 <ehirdghost> I just used a converter of .dfont -> .ttf, iirc
00:18:22 <ehirdghost> No DRM or anything; one command line invocation and an upload
00:18:27 <pikhq> BTW, fun fact. Typefaces are not subject to copyright.
00:18:27 <fizzie> Yes, well, I have it from reputable sources that you also download QuickBASIC copies of dubious legality.
00:18:41 <oerjan> ehirdghost: sounds a bit cheesy
00:18:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, what are they subject to then? And is that US only?
00:18:46 <ehirdghost> pikhq: Then why was Arial ever created?
00:18:50 <pikhq> The *computer code* describing them can be.
00:19:07 <pikhq> ehirdghost: Novel and non-obvious designs can be patented.
00:20:34 <ehirdghost> As a side note, does anyone actually use Zapfino?
00:20:36 <AnMaster> opentype contains parts under patent
00:21:03 <pikhq> Other countries have typeface copyright.
00:21:10 <fizzie> Uh, I'm not sure "file" is correct here: "Monaco.dfont: MS Windows icon resource"
00:21:14 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah; mostly the hinting algorithms, IIRC.
00:21:44 <ehirdghost> "Unfortunately, just before the project was completed, Siegel wrote a letter to Zapf, saying that his girlfriend had left him, and that he had lost all interest in anything. Thus Siegel abandoned the project and started a new life, working on bringing color to Macintosh computers, and later becoming an Internet design expert. "
00:22:00 <pikhq> Sorry; hard to get out of US-centric phrasing sometimes.
00:22:00 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: Yes, I know you take pride in your rabid hate of the US (because IT'S POPULAR or something).
00:22:31 <pikhq> Also, Zapfino? Unreadable?
00:23:04 <pikhq> No, it looks like calligraphic text. Rather readable, though probably not the best for long works.
00:23:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: OS X builtin font.
00:24:14 <ehirdghost> saying "OS X specific" is Wrong; I don't know of any OS X only fonts.
00:24:21 <pikhq> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Zapfino.svg
00:24:48 <AnMaster> readable for being a calligraphic one
00:24:49 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: Yes, but try reading text in it
00:25:03 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, It would be good for logos or such
00:25:25 <pikhq> ehirdghost: Calligraphic fonts aren't meant for long works...
00:25:28 <AnMaster> but why so many variants there
00:25:45 <AnMaster> and how do you select which one?
00:26:34 <ehirdghost> Does it still use that ugly iInstaller crap, I wonder.
00:28:16 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, what is wrong with ftp....
00:28:38 <AnMaster> well, passive ftp works fine in my experience
00:28:57 <pikhq> Aside from it's connecting back to the initiator of the connection for the transfer link, it's a decent protocol.
00:29:03 <pikhq> Perhaps a bit overengineered, though.
00:29:18 <AnMaster> pikhq, parallel transfers are nice though
00:29:20 <ehirdghost> It's completely insecure in every way, and for passive basic file downloads it has 0 advantages compared to HTTP
00:29:40 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, apart from connect back?
00:30:27 <AnMaster> works well, apart from the insecure bit and separate data channel.
00:30:29 <Ilari> Also, the server software required for it is bit too large...
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00:30:45 <AnMaster> Ilari, err. ISS is a bit insecure. Lets drop http
00:30:56 <AnMaster> Ilari, there are small FTP servers.
00:31:00 <pikhq> ftp(1) is a rather nice program.
00:31:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, indeed. I prefer sftp though mostly. For security
00:31:28 <pikhq> Ilari: Uh, ftpd probably comes in under a megabyte.
00:31:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: Well, yeah.
00:32:08 <Ilari> AnMaster: Implementing HTTP server is probably smaller task than implementing FTP server...
00:32:13 <fizzie> At least with FTP you can, on host C, transfer data between servers A and B without things going through C.
00:32:29 <fizzie> It is horribly complicated due to historical raisins, though.
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00:32:41 <AnMaster> fizzie, I managed that with scp iirc
00:33:04 <fizzie> I find it very unlikely that scp can do it.
00:33:12 <pikhq> Sftp can, scp can't.
00:33:43 <fizzie> How do you do it with sftp, then?
00:34:50 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, so what was the issue you had with ftp?
00:35:02 <AnMaster> you never answered what apart from separate control channel
00:35:12 <pikhq> s/sftp/scp/; sorry. sftp is a ftp-style program, and current scp programs are just sftp frontends.
00:35:13 <fizzie> pikhq: That writes to local file "baz:" here.
00:35:26 <ehirdghost> "and current scp programs are just sftp frontends."
00:35:38 <pikhq> Sorry. That was an epic thinko.
00:36:19 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, still. I'm waiting for an answer
00:36:19 <ehirdghost> I enjoy infuriating you by withholding it. :P
00:36:19 <AnMaster> you seem to avoid answering the question
00:36:39 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, well I just think it means you can't think of any rational reasons
00:37:59 <AnMaster> that comment made me even more sure about what I just said
00:38:12 <fizzie> I get "Permission denied, please try again. Permission denied, please try again. Permission denied (publickey,password,hostbased)." for a two-host scp thing. That is a bit strange.
00:38:13 <ehirdghost> If you haven't realised yet, I really don't care what you think about me.
00:38:28 <ehirdghost> Gawd, MacTex is 1GB… I don't even know how that's possible… still in awe
00:38:35 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, I think you do actually. Just are afraid to admit it
00:39:04 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, you feel insecure in yourself
00:39:20 <ehirdghost> "you show all the signs of not caring what I think about you; therefore you are insecure and secretly desire my confirmation but are too scared to seek it"
00:39:53 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, except you don't "show all signs of not caring". You rather try to show that but fail.
00:40:23 <ehirdghost> You're opening up my heart and showing me my deepest desires. It would be heartbreaking if it wasn't bullshit.
00:41:04 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, Yes you are scared to admit it. The more you deny it, the more you prove it. ;P
00:41:23 <ehirdghost> I am not a ghost. I am not a ghost. I am not a ghost. I am not a ghost. I am not a ghost. I am not a ghost. I am not a ghost. I am not a ghost.
00:41:50 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, Um, how does that follow logically
00:42:06 -!- FireyFly has quit ("Later").
00:42:09 <ehirdghost> "X is true. Evidence: You are denying X many times."
00:42:17 <AnMaster> I didn't say everything was opposite of what you said.
00:42:51 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, also just ask random $person with a tinfoil hat! The gov denies it so it must be tru!
00:43:48 <ehirdghost> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Löb's_theorem
00:44:01 <AnMaster> Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name. Please search for Löbs theorem in Wikipedia to check for alternative titles or spellings.
00:45:52 <AnMaster> "There is a paraconsistent version in Carl Hewitt [2008]." <-- ?
00:46:24 <AnMaster> not here, and parents are sleeping in the room with it
00:46:43 <ehirdghost> Your computer blocks all dictionary sites?
00:46:58 <oerjan> except the gay ones, obviously
00:47:01 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, that was a result of your curse before
00:47:32 <ehirdghost> T'was no typo; was the speak of thine ghosts.
00:47:52 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, well that made it misfire
00:48:03 <ehirdghost> We have an extravolutionary version of the language communicasystem; for extra extrapossibilities with which to extrapolate.
00:48:06 <AnMaster> so now it blocks me googling for anything you mentions
00:48:10 <ehirdghost> fizzie appears to be fluent in it while alive; though.
00:48:24 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: Wikipedia mentioned paraconsistent, not I.
00:48:35 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, directly or indirectly
00:48:59 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, not for the word "everything" no
00:49:10 <AnMaster> this is only literal phrases like that
00:49:27 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: You can never look up info about them
00:49:36 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, wrong. Only unknown words
00:50:05 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, plus due to the misfire it is time limited. Lasts about 1-1.5 weeks in average :/
00:50:20 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, well if you haven't typoed it, it wouldn't have misfired
00:50:34 <ehirdghost> If this sentence is true, then AnMaster is cursed.
00:51:02 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, fail to see the logical bomb there...
00:51:16 <ehirdghost> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry's_paradox
00:52:42 <AnMaster> ok. That is just a false statement due to the A then B not being a casual connection
00:53:46 <AnMaster> not the whole yet. But false was the wrong word. The right word would be: logical nonsense not connected with the real world.
00:55:18 <AnMaster> "In formal languages, we sometimes interpret "If X then Y" as a material conditional. On this reading, it simply means "Y, or else not X". Here we would read the sentence as "Santa Claus exists, or this sentence is false". On this reading, Curry's paradox is simply a variant on the liar paradox. However, in natural language this is not usually what we mean by "If X then Y". For instance, "if 6*7=42, t
00:55:18 <AnMaster> hen the moon exists" is true as a material implication, but is generally not considered true in natural language, because the moon's existence does not seem to be related to this fact of arithmetic."
00:56:10 <AnMaster> in other words. the claim describes a non-existent causal connection.
00:59:19 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, natural language isn't an exact science
00:59:35 <ehirdghost> Shush, I'm doing logics in mah type system.
01:00:00 <ehirdghost> Anyway, a proof of the above proposition:
01:00:44 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, as I said. Why would it be related
01:00:52 <AnMaster> you have to prove to me there is such a connection first
01:01:37 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, I mean I think this paradox is rather lame. It forgets about this think called "false claim" even "lie"
01:02:00 <AnMaster> if you enter garbage you will get garbage back
01:03:38 <AnMaster> try telling someone on the street
01:04:01 <AnMaster> "if this sentence is true, then you must give me all your money"
01:04:37 <ehirdghost> Yes, because going up to a random person on a street is an environment of complete logic and formal reasoning.
01:04:48 <ehirdghost> That happens to be the most retarded reasoning I've heard today, though. I'll give you that.
01:05:25 <pikhq> It is, of course, sanest to observe that there is nothing compelling anyone to give you money, therefore the sentence is quite false.
01:05:35 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, Yes it is the same because natural languages allow this thing called lie. You have to prove your "if A then B" really is a connection that exists
01:05:51 <ehirdghost> did you actually look at the formal language section
01:06:03 <ehirdghost> oerjan: please relieve the strain from my being and explain it to him
01:06:04 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, natural languages isn't a formal language
01:06:19 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, and you said it in natural language first
01:07:23 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, so tell me, why do you think the initial assertment: if true then P is valid?
01:07:45 <ehirdghost> oerjan; I'm tired of this idiot, plz take him
01:08:01 <AnMaster> I'm just saying if you put in garbage you get garbage back
01:09:46 <ehirdghost> You let the former take precedence, evidently.
01:10:00 <AnMaster> that actually gives useful results
01:10:17 <ehirdghost> I might think you less of an idiot if your only argument wasn't "that's wrong, ask a random person on the street"
01:10:33 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, I have given a lot of other arguments
01:10:45 <ehirdghost> To the ether, maybe—certainly not here.
01:10:48 <AnMaster> and that one was mostly a joke
01:11:06 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, ........ read scrollback
01:11:38 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, I told you that you need to verify your claims are relevant before you use them
01:12:16 <ehirdghost> Try making logical sense; or don't because I can't be arsed, you're clearly not interested in actual logic more than fuzzy human intuitive belief bullshit
01:12:17 <AnMaster> now what does that mean? does it make a lot of sense? No 1) it is out of context.
01:12:45 <AnMaster> 2) even if it was in context, how could you know that this implication is really true
01:13:14 <AnMaster> logic is a useful tool only when you put useful input into it
01:13:29 <AnMaster> if you just feed it random data you will get garbage back
01:13:53 <ehirdghost> You know, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
01:13:56 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, clearly you fail to see you need to verify the initial assertions to be able to extrapolate from them
01:13:58 <ehirdghost> Do you actually understand what you'r esaying?
01:14:14 <ehirdghost> I think you should read the article very carefully again.
01:14:26 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, I did. And you saw I quoted a bit ?
01:14:38 <AnMaster> "For instance, "if 6*7=42, then the moon exists" is true as a material implication, but is generally not considered true in natural language, because the moon's existence does not seem to be related to this fact of arithmetic."
01:14:57 <ehirdghost> Yes, you missed the bit that came next. Anyway, fuck off, this is boring and you clearly have no grasp of logic whatsoever.
01:15:25 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, lets say you are coding in prolog
01:15:36 <AnMaster> and listing initial "facts" or whatever
01:16:00 <AnMaster> then don't those facts also have to be true for the problem you are trying to solve
01:16:14 <ehirdghost> Did you miss where I said not interested?
01:16:14 <AnMaster> You can only build your your axiojms
01:16:26 <ehirdghost> You're an idiot; you completely misunderstand Curry's paradox, and I am tired of talking.
01:16:27 <AnMaster> if your axioms are false... tough luck
01:16:38 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, good thing you are writing then
01:16:44 <ehirdghost> Curry's paradox has nothing to do with defining axioms whatsoever. Go. Away
01:21:30 <AnMaster> I suggest a system with three truth values: true, false, EPARADOX (fatal error)
01:23:06 <AnMaster> oerjan, do you agree that if you enter false initial "facts/axioms" in a theorem prover you will get a useless result back?
01:23:24 <ehirdghost> that's nothing to do with curry's paradox
01:23:34 <AnMaster> from the wikipedia page it seems to be that
01:23:51 <AnMaster> if foo then bar. Well sure. If that connection actually holds.
01:23:56 <ehirdghost> oerjan: can you explain curry's paradox to him…
01:25:04 <oerjan> no tonight my dear, i've got a headache
01:25:09 <AnMaster> now a really interesting paradox is Russel's paradox for example.
01:25:22 <ehirdghost> curry's paradox is a generalization of russell's paradox.
01:25:59 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, well I have been discussing this in the context of the natural language case. Which is what we begin with.
01:26:15 <ehirdghost> natural language doesn't excuse you from using logic
01:26:43 <AnMaster> no, but natural language is well known for not being a formally well defined language
01:27:52 <ehirdghost> By your logic, all representations of logical formula in natural language suddenly lose their attachment to logic because you change '->' to 'implies'.
01:30:14 <AnMaster> For instance, consider the following sentence:
01:30:14 <AnMaster> If a man with flying reindeer has delivered presents to all the good children in the world in one night, then Santa Claus exists.
01:30:14 <AnMaster> Imagine that a man with flying reindeer has, in fact, done this. Does Santa Claus exist, in that case? It would seem so. <-- sounds probable yes. But it *could* be someone else doing it. It would need further investigation. Such an event would be circumstantial evidence. Not proof
01:30:42 <ehirdghost> Say, remember when I said I don't give a shit that you're logically illiterate?
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01:31:22 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, the fact that this is not really a paradox in natural languages. Just a nonsense statement
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15:21:05 <zzo38> Nobody is ever actively on #anagol even though some names are listed
15:21:59 <ehird> it's not too popular a channel
15:22:02 <ehird> Sometimes people talk
15:22:20 <ehird> A lot of people leave their IRC clients on to read what people said when they're not away, for channels that aren't logged
15:22:29 <ehird> Maybe some of them will have away set in /whois
15:23:43 <zzo38> I tried whois shinh and stuff like that but I'm not sure if that means they are away or not
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15:27:41 <zzo38> I tried various names with whois command but I can't see anything about away, is there some code for being away that I forgot about?
15:27:50 <ehird> It shows up if they are away
15:28:05 <ehird> My IRC client says shinh hasn't talked for 59 hours
15:29:35 <Asztal_> in my client I have to do /wii for that
15:29:52 <zzo38> I can only get idle time for whois on myself. And if it shows up when they are away, which line does it show up on, the 311 line or the 320 line or some other line?
15:30:12 <zzo38> What does "/wii" means
15:30:16 <fizzie> You need to ask the remote server if you want idle-time information. /wii is a common alias, "/whois nick nick" usually works too.
15:30:46 <fizzie> "/wii nick" => "/whois nick nick", which means "ask nick's whois-info from the server nick is on".
15:31:05 <zzo38> O, thanks I did "whois shinh shinh" and I got the idle time for shinh (214878 seconds)
15:31:16 <fizzie> That's a lot of seconds.
15:31:53 <ehird> fizzie: you know TeX, right? How do you put a \ in the document?
15:31:56 <zzo38> Well yes, the IRC server returns it in seconds I did the calculation it is approx 59.7 hours
15:32:30 <fizzie> ehird: You can do $\backslash$ although it might look non-text-like since it's math-mode-fluff.
15:32:43 <ehird> Is there a \rawcodeystylething{} block thang?
15:33:37 <fizzie> There seems to be a \textbackslash command, according to some reference.
15:33:37 <zzo38> Thanks for telling me I need to indicate the name twice if I want the 317 line (although I'm not sure why the server shouldn't figure that out automatically?)
15:34:09 <ehird> zzo38: IRC is weird
15:34:15 <ehird> Probably it was done this way for backwards compatibility
15:34:48 <fizzie> And another place says "\char`\\", which is a piece of raw TeX, should also work.
15:34:59 <zzo38> ehird: OK. However I can get the 317 line for myself without needing to type my name twice.
15:35:03 <fizzie> If you want a large block of verbatim text, there's of course \begin{verbatim} ... \end{verbatim}.
15:35:12 <fizzie> You get the 317 line for everyone who happens to be on the same server as you.
15:35:57 * AnMaster wonders how to get GCC to generate an integer constant without $ in inline asm
15:35:57 <zzo38> O. So does it do that to save bandwidth from accessing other servers when it doesn't have to?
15:36:22 <fizzie> There's also a \verb=xyz= command which does xyz verbatim, but maybe \ is too extra-magical even for that.
15:36:37 <ehird> Is there a superscript/subscript combiner in unicode?
15:36:52 <fizzie> (You can freely use any delimiter instead of = there as long as it's not in the verbatim-string.)
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15:37:32 <ehird> Well, I only want a superscript A and a subscript E.
15:38:08 -!- zzo38 has joined.
15:38:13 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
15:38:15 -!- zzo38 has joined.
15:38:17 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
15:38:42 <fizzie> There are super/subscript numbers, and a couple of other characters too.
15:39:28 <AnMaster> <ehird> zzo38: IRC is weird <-- I know the details about why name twice if you are interested
15:39:46 <AnMaster> it isn't exactly what you suggested
15:41:31 <fizzie> What is there outside of the RFC's "If the <target> parameter is specified, it sends the query to a specific server. It is useful if you want to know how long the user in question has been idle as only local server knows that information, while everything else is globally known" explanation?
15:41:45 <ehird> http://filebin.ca/jrtvbo/first-test.pdf A most delightful X∃LaTₑX (see how hard I worked on that?) output. Bring Hoefler Text (or, wait, is it embedded in the PDF?).
15:42:21 <ehird> Err, it's 16 March.
15:42:30 <ehird> Please ignore that time-travelling document.
15:42:47 <fizzie> Yes, I think it embeds-by-default.
15:43:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, using a non-server name means asking the server that first nick is on
15:43:03 <fizzie> Although I can't be sure, since I don't remember what Hoefler Text should look like.
15:43:33 <fizzie> Yes, I fail to see how that is different from my "nick nick means ask the server nick is on" explanation.
15:43:49 <AnMaster> fizzie, well on freenode it is. Due to freenode's server hiding
15:43:53 <ehird> fizzie: if you screenshot, I'll tell you if it's right :P
15:44:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, you never get idle time with anything but repeating nick
15:44:54 <fizzie> ehird: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/what_foolishness_is_this.png
15:45:17 <ehird> fizzie: That's hideous, but I suppose that's Linux font rendering thar.
15:45:31 <ehird> Now we just need uppercase versions
15:45:49 <ehird> fizzie: It has the right shapes, so, success.
15:46:08 <ehird> By the way, that is a copyrighted image and I will sue you.
15:48:45 <ehird> Asztal_: there should be a combining uppercase :P
15:49:04 <fizzie> There are COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER [AEIOUCDHMRTVX]; that's a very random-sounding set.
15:50:00 <AnMaster> wth is up with http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/what_foolishness_is_this.png
15:50:21 <ehird> what do you mean what's up with it
15:50:32 <AnMaster> well it is as you said hideous.
15:50:32 <ehird> apart from the bad linux font rendering
15:50:39 <ehird> AnMaster: try the pdf on your system
15:50:44 <ehird> It will probably look nicer
15:50:44 <AnMaster> ehird, pdftex generally renders better than that
15:50:54 <ehird> it's the font, Hoefler Text
15:50:59 <ehird> It demands good rendering :P
15:51:08 <AnMaster> ehird, well Apple has patents on the important rendering bits
15:51:16 <ehird> So you keep saying.
15:51:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I even linked you some weeks or so ago
15:51:55 <fizzie> That's viewed-with-xpdf, in case it matters.
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15:52:48 * AnMaster wonders what Helvetica with serifs would look like
15:53:12 <fizzie> It does look rather different with, say, Evince.
15:54:04 <ehird> 14:52 AnMaster wonders what Helvetica with serifs would look like <-- Unlike Helvetica.
15:54:14 <fizzie> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/evince_version.png
15:54:20 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu.
15:54:24 <ehird> fizzie: oh, that's significantly better
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15:54:35 <ehird> as in I can actually read it and it looks similar to the rendering at my end
15:55:54 <fizzie> I don't have it on this thing.
15:56:05 <fizzie> There's acroread, some version.
15:56:08 <AnMaster> how comes pdf renders so differently?
15:56:35 <AnMaster> I thought the point of pdf was to render the same
15:56:42 <ehird> AnMaster: different font rendering
15:56:50 <ehird> Here's how it looks on my end: http://imgur.com/74ZOM.png. It probably won't look very nice unless you have a high-DPI display with the right colour profile.
15:57:23 <AnMaster> ehird, it looks hideous on this monitor
15:57:57 <fizzie> It looks reasonably nice on this.
15:58:28 <fizzie> Where "reasonably nice" means I like it more than Evince, I think.
15:59:39 -!- neldoret1 has changed nick to neldoreth.
15:59:47 <ehird> Hoefler Text's serifs probably would fit better on print.
15:59:56 <fizzie> Heh, Firefox went and crashed when I opened gnome-control-center and twiddled with the font rendering settings.
16:00:06 <AnMaster> Anyone here know GCC inline assembler?
16:00:15 <ehird> AnMaster: gcc's manual does :P
16:00:21 <fizzie> Well, I've done it a little bit.
16:00:27 <AnMaster> I have read it and not found a solution
16:00:28 <fizzie> I think I missed the question.
16:00:29 <ehird> It documents it all, afaik.
16:00:32 <AnMaster> I'm trying to something like this (but with more instructions to make it useful):
16:00:33 <AnMaster> asm("leaq %[size]+%[var],%%rdx" : [var] "=m"(myvar) : [size] "i"(sizeof(myvar)) : "rdx");
16:00:33 <AnMaster> Where myvar is a static array of fixed size. Size is known at compile time, but may vary depending on compile time options. I would expect it to generate something like:
16:00:33 <AnMaster> But in fact it generates this invalid (at least gas thinks so) assembler:
16:00:34 <AnMaster> leaq $2097152+myvar(%rip),%rdx
16:00:36 <AnMaster> How can I get GCC to not include that first $ there? I have looked at the GCC documentation and found no way to work around it
16:00:44 <ehird> Using the plain TEX notation $$ . . . $$ for displayed equations is not recom-
16:00:44 <ehird> mended. Although it is not expressly forbidden in LATEX, it is not documented anywhere in the LATEX book
16:00:47 <ehird> as being part of the LATEX command set, and it interferes with the proper operation of various features
16:00:50 <ehird> such as the fleqn option.
16:00:59 <ehird> AnMaster: [size] instead of %[size]?
16:01:23 <AnMaster> ehird, that doesn't substitute at all. I tried it.
16:01:40 <ehird> Then you can't do it.
16:02:06 <ehird> "leaq "#sizeof(foo)"..."
16:02:13 <ehird> I was thinking like cpp stringification
16:02:31 <ehird> anyone have a ttf of computer modern
16:02:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't think there is a way to get the size of an object with CPP but hm...
16:02:58 <fizzie> Yes, you can't get sizeof() during the preprocessing; I was going to suggest stringizing too.
16:03:34 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know the ranges of sizeof()?
16:03:40 <ehird> Like, it's either 2 or 4 or 8
16:03:56 <ehird> #if sizeof(foo)==1; #define foo "1" or whatever, 'cept, you can't do that in cpp
16:04:27 <AnMaster> ehird, well it depends on compile time options. It could be 2097152 or 4194304
16:04:37 <ehird> AnMaster: what options
16:04:43 <fizzie> Have you tried the 'n' constraint instead of 'i'? Although I really don't have a clue how they differ.
16:04:53 <ehird> AnMaster: what option?
16:05:04 <AnMaster> -DUSE32 -DUSE64 -DARRAY_SIZE_X -DARRAY_SIZE_Y
16:05:13 <ehird> AnMaster: Then, just
16:05:24 <AnMaster> the two latter toggle data type
16:05:35 <ehird> do this, for instance
16:05:36 <AnMaster> the two latter toggle array size
16:05:49 <ehird> #ifdef USE32; #define foo #ARRAY_SIZE_X; #endif
16:05:59 <ehird> Then just do "blah " foo " baz"
16:06:08 <ehird> That sort of thing anyway
16:06:15 <ehird> AnMaster: if that needs adding to
16:06:19 <ehird> Then just do "blah " foo "+44 baz"
16:06:34 <AnMaster> size is sizeof(datatype) * ARRAY_SIZE_X * ARRAY_SIZE_Y
16:07:01 <ehird> Right, you'll have to do that in parts then
16:07:10 <ehird> #define sizeofdatatype "4"
16:07:16 <ehird> #define foo #ARRAY_SIZE_X
16:07:27 <ehird> "sdfk " sizeofdatatype "*" foo
16:07:44 <ehird> http://www.nopaste.com/p/aVqjYoeUbb <- the source to that LaTeX document; please excuse any noobishness
16:07:59 <ehird> Also excuse the wrapping; TeXShop doesn't seem to do that automagically.
16:08:06 <ehird> Er, lack of wrapping, rather.
16:09:22 <fizzie> ehird: Judging from some other latex, you can indeed escape \ with the verbatim mode, so you could write \verb=\chapter= instead of the bulkier \textbackslash{}chapter.
16:10:52 <ehird> Say, does anyone have a HIGHLY ILLEGAL copy of the Univers font? Well, the copy doesn't have to be highly illegal.
16:13:56 <ehird> AnMaster: I think you must do
16:14:06 <ehird> and foo(ARRAY_SIZE_X) would give "ARRAY_SIZE_X".
16:14:09 <ehird> So this is perhaps a slight dead end
16:14:27 <ehird> AnMaster: are the X and Y bounded?
16:14:30 <fizzie> You need the double-macro thing.
16:14:44 <fizzie> #define foo(x) #x -- #define bar(x) foo(x) -- bar(ARRAY_SIZE)
16:14:51 <fizzie> That will evaluate ARRAY_SIZE before stringizing it.
16:14:55 <ehird> Yes, AnMaster, do that.
16:15:02 <fizzie> It's very tricky, and I always get it wrong.
16:15:03 <ehird> I love^Whate cpp :-)
16:15:11 <fizzie> But the comp.lang.c faq has some examples, anyway.
16:15:37 <ehird> Incidentally, on the topic of I'm Talking About How OS X Is Awesome To Annoy AnMaster (just kidding, AnMaster, kay?): I like how Ctrl-A and Ctrl-E from emacs are available in every text input field.
16:16:06 <AnMaster> #define CPP_SILLY_STRINGIFY(x) # x
16:16:06 <AnMaster> #define CPP_SILLY_EVAL(x) CPP_SILLY_STRINGIFY(x)
16:16:20 <ehird> Although, well, I'd call it
16:16:37 <ehird> #define CPP_STRINGIFY_ARGH(x) #x
16:16:44 <ehird> #define CPP_STRINGIFY(x) CPP_STRINGIFY_ARGH(x)
16:16:53 <ehird> To more accurately convey the correct emotion.
16:17:22 <fizzie> Sometimes people use the same name with a trailing _, but something like that anyway.
16:17:35 <ehird> fizzie: That is evil.
16:17:42 <ehird> It does not convey feminine emotion of human vitality.
16:17:51 -!- MizardX has quit ("011000 100110 000101 110011 011001 010010 000000 110010").
16:18:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, this even more simplificates it:
16:18:17 <fizzie> http://c-faq.com/ansi/stringize.html
16:18:27 <ehird> #define CPP_SIZE 4
16:18:33 <ehird> #define CPP_SIZE 8
16:18:53 <ehird> CPP_STRINGIFY(CPP_SIZE) "*" CPP_STRINGIFY(X) "+" CPP_STRINGIFY(Y)
16:18:58 <ehird> no need for extra definitions, I mean.
16:18:59 -!- FireyFly has joined.
16:19:05 <ehird> Just CPP_STRINGIFY* and CPP_SIZE (as an int).
16:19:25 <AnMaster> ehird, that would make it pass 80 columns, which look silly
16:19:40 <ehird> CPP_STRINGIFY(CPP_SIZE) "*"
16:19:43 <ehird> CPP_STRINGIFY(X) "+"
16:19:56 <AnMaster> ehird, looks silly to have multiline inline asm expand to single line asm -_-
16:20:02 <ehird> No. It really doesn't.
16:20:07 <ehird> These are the only times you use those stringifications, so assigning them a name is ridiculous.
16:26:09 <ehird> http://thanksants.com/ <- <3
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16:53:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Look Around You reference
16:54:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I did enable javascript
16:54:13 <ehird> Well, it's a Look Around You reference.
17:00:01 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:01:36 <ehird> can i have my note credits now? :P
17:01:52 <ais523> ehird: wrong channel, and let me read email first to figure out what you're talking about
17:02:08 <ehird> 1) there is no right channel that I am currently present in; I was just passing on a one-line note
17:02:13 <ehird> 2) your cron job fired
17:02:18 <ehird> although murphy beat you to it
17:02:45 <ehird> ais523: also, goethe was in _another_ scam secrecy contract with another group of players, plotting the same scam.
17:02:47 <ehird> as far as I can tell
17:02:56 <ehird> so if you entered an agreement with him, he tricked you.
17:03:12 <ais523> but again, wrong channel, your refusal to join the right channel does not make this the right channel
17:03:27 <ehird> nobody else is talking, so.
17:03:33 <ehird> it was just a little note
17:06:51 * AnMaster wonders why the hell gcc generated this code:
17:07:04 <AnMaster> what is wrong with adding a bit instead?
17:07:15 <ehird> less omg optimized
17:07:26 <ehird> AnMaster: did the stringification work out?
17:11:06 <AnMaster> ais523, any idea about that sub?
17:11:19 <AnMaster> it was in a loop gcc generated:
17:11:29 <ais523> AnMaster: it might change the processor flags differently
17:11:40 <ais523> there are lots of that sort of thing in asm
17:11:59 <ais523> or it may be subtracting %rax /from/ that large number, rather than subtracting the large number from %rax
17:12:16 <AnMaster> ais523, rax is a pointer to an array
17:12:38 -!- Hiato has joined.
17:12:40 <AnMaster> also it only uses sub if it is unrolling the loop. It uses add otherwise
17:13:12 <AnMaster> yes the sub jump is larger, but that is because it was unrolled
17:16:20 -!- MizardX has joined.
17:26:48 * ehird does some more logics in haskell typeth system
17:26:53 <ehird> hmm, I forgot, I'm a ghost
17:26:56 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehirdghost.
17:27:14 <ehirdghost> Ahah, now I recommandeth my speakings of the ghostular enhanced communicatoungh.
17:29:10 <Asztal_> you were supposed to wait until Easter to resurrect :(
17:29:32 <ehirdghost> yeah, yeah, sorry, wait, I'll remove that previous shit from the timestream
17:29:39 <ehirdghost> done, if you still see it you're hallucinamating
17:36:47 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, did you finish your bef93 in qbasic?
17:37:12 <ehirdghost> no, it was too trivial that I fell asleep
17:38:00 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, why not write a befunge93 in SQL (probably with some procedural extensions)
17:38:30 <ais523> is ehirdghost writing befunge in SQL?
17:38:41 <ais523> if so, which extensions? SQL isn't actually Turing-complete without extensions
17:38:43 <AnMaster> ais523, no it was a suggestion for something to do
17:38:44 <ehirdghost> AnMaster wants me to, I don't see why it's interesting.
17:38:46 <ais523> but then, neither is befunge-93
17:39:01 <AnMaster> ais523, I would suggest Pg/SQL
17:39:42 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, no I didn't "want you to", just a suggestion for something to do
17:40:14 <fizzie> PL/pgSQL, if you mean the PostgreSQL thing.
17:40:29 <fizzie> Or just PL/SQL for the Oracle thing.
17:41:54 <fizzie> Google Image Search doesn't find any dodecahedronasaurii. :/
17:42:41 <Slereah_> http://www.google.com/search?q=dodecadicks&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:fr:official&client=firefox-a
17:42:48 <Slereah_> What do you know, it actually exists!
17:43:12 <AnMaster> how many bits is needed to represent a 2 MB address space?
17:44:26 <fizzie> Since 2^10 is a kilobyte, 2^20 is a megabyte and 2^30 is a gigabyte.
17:44:33 <ehirdghost> http://filebin.ca/jrtvbo/first-test.pdf <- Relinking this since everyone must see it.
17:44:48 <ais523> and 2 MB is slightly smaller, therefore still 21
17:44:48 * AnMaster wonders what he is miscalculating then
17:45:22 <AnMaster> wait, I see that I made an error, but why is it only off by half...
17:45:23 <Asztal_> ehirdghost: but you never linked it before... we were just hallucinamating that, right?
17:45:40 <fizzie> Also there's the whole A20 line stuff in the legacy-x86 world.
17:45:40 <AnMaster> I didn't calculated in 16 bit numbers...
17:46:03 <AnMaster> Lets see. How many bits do you need to represent 1024*512 ?
17:46:51 <fizzie> If you mean "represent all numbers in the range [0, 1024*512-1]".
17:47:34 <fizzie> Or "represent 1024*512 different entities", more generically.
17:48:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm trying to work out how I would do bit interleaving for using a z-order space filling curve to index the static funge space
17:48:41 <AnMaster> and I just can't get it straight
17:49:52 <AnMaster> ais523, btw since you know gcc quite well. How do you make gcc expand asm("leaq %[size]+%[var],%%rdx" : [var] "=m"(myvar) : [size] "i"(sizeof(myvar)) : "rdx"); to "leaq 2097152+myvar(%rip),%rdx" rather than "leaq $2097152+myvar(%rip),%rdx"
17:50:06 <AnMaster> for now I worked around the issue with some ugly macros
17:50:16 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, yes but I was wondering "is there no better solution"
17:50:26 <ehirdghost> it's just stringifying some expressions
17:52:58 <ehirdghost> heh, it's funny how well suited haskell is to logic in the type system
17:53:45 <fizzie> Here's a funny bit of x86 trivia: the A20 gate (which controls whether the A20 line is enabled or not; if it's not enabled, the 21th bit in memory addresses is forced to be 0, wrapping the [1MB,2MB) range on top of [0,1MB) and same for 3-4, 5-6 etc.) used to be connected to the *keyboard controller*.
17:55:31 <fizzie> It's just that their keyboard controller had a spare I/O pin they could use. The keyboard controller can also reset the CPU.
18:00:19 <AnMaster> so I need to bit interleave a 9 bit and a 10 bit integers in the fastest way possible...
18:00:28 * AnMaster looks at the bithacks page fizzie linked
18:01:22 -!- Deewiant has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:02:00 <ehirdghost> Syntax but with safety pins and income tax.
18:02:30 <Judofyr> ehirdghost: still a ghost?
18:02:33 <AnMaster> I always thought the [) notation looks silly
18:03:16 <ehirdghost> AnMaster: The correct range semantics for (N..M) is including N and excluding M, anyway. See: Djikstra. They compose better.
18:03:33 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, yes I know what it is for
18:03:33 <ehirdghost> And (0..N) gets you N items; fits in with array-type stuff
18:03:50 <ehirdghost> So [X,Y) is actually useless as there's only One True Solution :P
18:04:09 <AnMaster> I just thinks it looks silly with [X,Y) Typographically silly I mean
18:04:43 -!- Deewiant has joined.
18:06:39 -!- ineiros has quit (Remote closed the connection).
18:08:36 <ehirdghost> Sq, Q prqpqsq thqt qll vqwqls qrq rqplqcqd by "q". (So, I propose that all vowels are replaced by q.)
18:08:53 <ehirdghost> (It actually works fine for everything but i, pretty much. So let's try it.)
18:11:47 -!- ineiros has joined.
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18:16:09 <ehirdghost> qqs523: Wqll yqq jqqn my pqlgrqmqgq frqm vqwqls?
18:18:09 <Asztal_> Tqlkqng wqthqqt vqwqls qs sq pqssq́.
18:25:17 <AnMaster> wow you can do fast bit interleaving with SSSE3. But not with SSE3
18:25:33 <ais523> what, you mean the intercal operation?
18:25:53 <AnMaster> ais523, almost. I'm talking about a space filling Morton curve here.
18:26:05 <AnMaster> ais523, which can be done with bit interleaving
18:28:08 <AnMaster> ais523, hm a hillbert curve would provide better locality of reference than. Wonder how you can calculate it.
18:28:32 <ais523> AnMaster: err... you're using space-filling curves for the memory of your Befunge interp to avoid cache misses?
18:28:43 <ais523> are you /sure/ that doesn't waste more time calculating than it does reading from cache?
18:28:51 <fizzie> Yes, and it's pretty much exactly the intercal mingle.
18:28:55 <AnMaster> ais523, it is possible. That is why I want to profile
18:29:17 <AnMaster> I can't be sure if I haven't looked at it at all
18:29:48 <ehirdghost> if I jump over a bridge, will I die? I can't be sure if I haven't tried it at all
18:29:50 <AnMaster> ais523, so I can't say I'm sure until I even tested with space filling curves.
18:29:56 <fizzie> ais523: I'm repeating myself a bit here, but:
18:29:56 <fizzie> [2009-03-15 19:59:38] < fizzie> Notably, calculating the z-order coordinate from x, y is just a single application of the INTERCAL mingle operator.
18:29:58 <fizzie> [2009-03-15 19:59:54] < fizzie> Of course your silly C might lack the always-useful $ operator.
18:32:11 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway it is quite possible this could differ a lot between different CPUs, if you have a very small cache you could possibly gain from it.
18:32:45 <AnMaster> ais523, and my sempron has a 128 kb L2 cache, and no L3 cache
18:33:10 <AnMaster> ehirdghost, yes it is very small.
18:33:32 <AnMaster> I have a Pentium 3 with twice as big L2 cache
18:33:34 <ehirdghost> Why dqn't yqq mqcrq-qptqmqsq qn q dqcqnt mqchqnq?!
18:34:14 <AnMaster> tell me when you decide to make sense.
18:34:47 <Asztal_> Why don't you micro-optimise on a decent machine‽
18:34:50 <fizzie> Incidentally, are you doing "thqs q thqng" manually or automagically?
18:35:25 <AnMaster> maybe ehirdghost will provide the money?
18:35:27 <Asztal_> you mean Qsztql_, or are nicknames excluded?
18:35:42 <ehirdghost> fizzie: Mqnqqlly, bqt nqw I'm nqt: tr qqqqq qqqqq
18:35:57 <ehirdghost> Asztal_: /nqck Qsztql_ qnd jqqn qqr qrdqr.
18:36:04 -!- ehirdghost has changed nick to qhqrdghqst.
18:36:32 <fizzie> The-artist-formerly-known-as-ehirdghost: your new name looks like a MMX opcode.
18:37:49 <qhqrdghqst> I wandar haw at gaas wath a anstaad af q. I wender hew et gees weth e ensteed ef q. I wondor how ot goos woth o onstood of q.
18:37:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, my favourite MMX opcode is CVTTPD2PI
18:38:38 <AnMaster> it is SSE but operates on mmx registers, instead of xmm registers
18:39:39 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, why not replace non-vowels instead of vowels?
18:39:49 <qhqrdghqst> Qn Q-spqqk, CQBQL = CQBQL. Cqqncqdqncq?
18:40:02 <qhqrdghqst> QnMqstqr: Tq mqrq qccqrqtqly glqqk mqqnqng frqm cqntqxt.
18:40:32 <AnMaster> no idea if it will work out well
18:41:27 <AnMaster> CQBQL = CQBQL <-- was that COBOL = C.B.L?
18:41:56 <Asztal_> I read it as COBOL = CABAL
18:42:00 <qhqrdghqst> Cqmmqn Qrqqntqd Bqsqnqss Lqngqqgq = Thqrq Qs Nq Cqbql
18:42:32 <AnMaster> Qsztql <-- looks like a monster in nethack?
18:43:01 <qhqrdghqst> Hqy, fqrst pqrsqn thqt mqkqs q scrqpt thqt grqps /qsr/shqrq/dqct/wqrds tq qdd thq vqwqls bqck qn gqts q cqqkqq.
18:43:43 <AnMaster> also I'm too lazy to make such a script
18:43:59 <qhqrdghqst> Why nqt grqp /qsr/shqrq/dqct/wqrds tq fqnd qqt whqt thqt wqrd cqqld bq? Jqst s/q/./ wqqld wqrk fqr qnq wqrd.
18:44:24 <AnMaster> well true. But I think it was cookie now
18:45:20 <fizzie> AnMaster: I'm not quite sure what "Qsztql" could refer to. Quetzalcoatl is the lawful archeologist god, though.
18:45:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, you tend to run into them when you are high level and near the top of the dungeon... Maybe it was Quetzalcoatl
18:46:14 <fizzie> But that's a god, not a monster.
18:46:34 <fizzie> There's an A called couatl, maybe that.
18:47:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, in ASCII it is A, in QT mode it is some brown/pink blurry tile that looks vaguely like a brown snake with pink wings
18:47:45 <fizzie> Quetzalcoatl is the feathered snake. And couatl is a D&D monster that refers to that, and has the A symbol. So it's probably that.
18:48:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, what about "couatl" <Rodney> a[4]: Monster: 'A' angelic beings: couatl, Aleax, Angel, ki-rin, Archon
18:48:17 <fizzie> "There's an A called couatl, maybe that."
18:48:20 <oklofok> interesting, changing vowels to q's isn't really even noticeable for short words, but i have no idea what ieiiiii, ieiiiii oie iio iiiee is
18:48:23 <fizzie> That *is* what I'm talking about.
18:48:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, I did /msg #esoteric from in the privmsg with Rodney
18:49:24 <qhqrdghqst> Hmm. My scrqpt fqqls qn yqq gqt q cqqkqq, fqr thqrq qrq mqny pqssqbqlqtqqs.
18:49:43 <fizzie> Oh. And incidentally, why does irssi prefix a + or - to all incoming messages now that I have an irssi-proxy thing going on?
18:49:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, still I think CVTTPD2PI is the MMX/SSE instruction with the nicest name
18:50:07 <oklofok> qhqrdghqst: well why not use a markov chain, don't you just love those?
18:50:15 <qhqrdghqst> fizzie: http://miau.sourceforge.net/faq.html
18:50:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, freenode adds +/- if you request it when you connect
18:50:50 <qhqrdghqst> Thus, see http://miau.sourceforge.net/faq.html.
18:50:52 <AnMaster> it means identified to nickserv or not
18:51:10 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, xchat enables it if available and uses it
18:51:26 <fizzie> Oh. Heh, yes, I did connect with xchat to the irssi-proxy.
18:51:32 <fizzie> Is it a toggleable setting somewhere?
18:51:59 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes, by reconnecting. You could also make the proxy filter this so the client never sees that the server supports it
18:52:05 <ais523> I made another Enigma level, by the way, just for fun; it's pretty easy
18:52:10 <ais523> and again not the sort AnMaster likes
18:52:17 <ais523> AnMaster: it's a memory level, mostly
18:52:21 <ais523> and a bit of forward planning
18:52:27 <AnMaster> ais523, so what is your opinion on CVTTPD2PI?
18:52:40 <ais523> AnMaster: I generally don't have opinions on particular asm opcodes I don't know much about
18:52:54 <fizzie> ehird: irssi-proxy's a module of sorts for irssi which makes it act a bit like a bouncer. I wanted to try a non-monospaced font in IRC, but that's not very viable in a terminal.
18:52:59 <ais523> looks typical for bloated x86 asm opcodes
18:53:01 <AnMaster> "Convert Packed Single-Precision Floating-Point to Packed Doubleword Integers, Truncated"
18:53:19 <AnMaster> according to the AMD reference docs
18:53:30 <qhqrdghqst> Why not just use miau if you want a bouncer? :P
18:53:53 <fizzie> Because I already had irssi running, and didn't want to disconnect for this experiment.
18:54:14 <qhqrdghqst> Sounds like a very exciting experiment.
18:54:16 <ais523> http://filebin.ca/ufepe/ais52304_1.xml
18:54:33 <fizzie> I'm not sure I like it here in 2000.
18:55:36 <fizzie> AnMaster: Anyway, did you say I can tell this X-Chat to not enable that identify-msg thing? I'm not sure I want to do any filtering in irssi-proxy.
18:56:17 <AnMaster> I suggested you would filter this in the bouncer
18:56:26 <AnMaster> so xchat would never see that it was enabled
18:56:33 <AnMaster> also filter any requests to enable it
18:56:34 <fizzie> About instructions, I think I like the name of PUNPCKHBW. It's got, you know, punch.
18:56:57 <AnMaster> Unpack and Interleave High Bytes...
18:57:21 <qhqrdghqst> http://khjeron.de/index.php?ELEMENT=300 wat
18:57:23 <fizzie> Aw. I'm not quite sure how to do it. Irssi-proxy is not a very configurable bouncer, it's rather rudimentary.
18:58:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, xchat is not a very configurable client, it is rather advanced but single minded. That is if you don't like the defaults you don't have a lot of options to change it
18:58:10 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: how are you getting on with my level?
18:58:26 <ais523> I'm wondering if I should make it harder, probably not if you're finding it hard
18:58:30 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, that should be Qwfqllq
18:58:41 <fizzie> Yes, it seems that way. But this xchat is several magnitudes better than I remember it being back in, you know, 2000 or so.
18:58:50 <ais523> I'm almost convinced oklofok would do it first time and think "that was boring", but then he's oklofok
18:59:05 <oklofok> my back hurts, can't really concentrate
18:59:10 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: I will comply if and only if fizzie and you and ais523 start filtering all messages through (tr aeiou q | tr AEIOU Q).
18:59:36 <oklofok> actually been working on this puzzle for ages now, even though i solved it pretty fast last night (my points weren't registered so i had to do it again)
18:59:39 <fizzie> I'm not sure what would be a nice graphical IRC client. Colloquy sure seems nice-looking, but it's just OS X.
18:59:48 <ais523> oklofok: which puzzle?
18:59:49 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, nah, you are free to stop it
18:59:57 <oklofok> 3d logic 2: stronghold of sage
18:59:57 <qhqrdghqst> fizzie: colloquy is pretty awful; LimeChat is nice.
19:00:08 <qhqrdghqst> Colloquy is buggy and crashy and underfeatured
19:00:29 <AnMaster> fizzie, there is an xchat fork called conspire. Haven't tried it. May be worth checking it out
19:00:56 <oklofok> you have a grid on three faces of a cube, and you need to connect dots of same color.
19:01:07 <fizzie> I'm going strictly based on screenshots-shown-on-the-software's-web-site here. LimeChat seems like an OS X thing too. Of course one would assume that anything nice-looking is.
19:01:41 <oklofok> started playing kongregate since all the cool kids seem to be doing it
19:03:39 <AnMaster> you can use plan9 userspace on Linux btw
19:03:58 <qhqrdghqst> you don't get any of the device magic that actually makes it worthwhile
19:04:08 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, but not everyone can switch to plan9
19:04:28 <qhqrdghqst> oklofok: I played the original version of that game
19:04:36 <AnMaster> well iirc fizzie worked on some workstation owned by the university
19:04:47 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: I just got a time of 1:53 on that level, btw, that's faster than the record written in the file
19:05:04 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, also I don't remember how the /proc of plan9 was but Linux have a /proc. Maybe different.
19:05:20 <fizzie> Yes, well, I'm currently at home; I think I'll stick to rxvt-unicode and irssi for chatting at work.
19:05:22 <AnMaster> anyway: http://swtch.com/plan9port/
19:05:46 <oklofok> qhqrdghqst: harder, easier, or you didn't pass it?
19:06:06 <oklofok> how could you know whether it's harder or easier
19:06:17 <oklofok> (that was a question, answer)
19:06:26 <ais523> I can guess it's a KDE program from the spelling
19:06:31 <ais523> but don't konw anything beyond that
19:06:31 <oklofok> basically you get points out of playing flash games.
19:07:13 * ais523 wonders if Three Times Through is always possible
19:07:16 <AnMaster> ais523, this one ends in 04? I saw 01 too. What about 02 and 03
19:07:17 <ais523> I suspect it is, but haven't proved it
19:07:27 <ais523> they aren't finished yet
19:07:33 <ais523> are you having a go at it?
19:07:34 <AnMaster> ais523, any in the style I like?
19:07:42 <oklofok> more incentive to actually finish games, and try all kinds of stuff out; which of course is good only if you consider flash games educational, which i do
19:07:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I don't know if I mentioned it. But I rather like that level "robin's wood"
19:08:01 <ais523> _02 and _03 are almost finished, they just need AIs
19:08:10 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't, it just looks big and tiresome
19:08:51 <qhqrdghqst> oklofok: http://www.kongregate.com/games/AlexMatveev/3d-logic
19:10:04 <AnMaster> ais523, is there anything in your last level preventing the first two stones matching each other?
19:10:14 <ais523> AnMaster: no, it's completely random the arrangement
19:10:18 <ais523> normally you get a mix of luck
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19:10:27 <ais523> because there are so many oxyds to place
19:12:12 <qhqrdghqst> oklofok: i can't beat original level 7 <.<
19:14:27 <AnMaster> ais523, I liked "floppy floors" too
19:14:37 <AnMaster> on easy, never tried it on hard
19:14:53 <ais523> AnMaster: what, my level?
19:14:54 <AnMaster> however it was another level I was looking for
19:15:00 <oklofok> i did the first 12 levels in about 2 minutes, then made a mistake, and closed it
19:15:21 <oklofok> (i mean i don't actually want to play atm)
19:15:32 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, I was referring to the one I just pasted
19:15:50 <ais523> and nothing's forcing oklofok to play, especially as the level I just pasted is likely far too easy for em
19:15:53 <AnMaster> I just mentioned some levels I liked
19:16:11 <oklofok> ais523: are you trying to force me to try it :P
19:16:17 <ais523> no, there wouldn't be any point
19:16:20 <AnMaster> ais523, there was some level that was a "who did it" iirc
19:16:42 <ais523> AnMaster: I've done that one, it isn't really because it's just elimination and luck
19:17:25 <AnMaster> ais523, there was one with lots of hidden tools. Split up in four screens
19:17:32 <ais523> I was doing that one recently
19:17:44 <AnMaster> I remember first room was very white
19:17:45 <ais523> I think I tried twice and failed
19:17:57 <AnMaster> just don't remember where or name
19:18:09 <ais523> both times because coffee wasn't implemented, so getting the last pair of oxyds depends entirely on luck and fast mouse movement, you need both
19:18:16 <ais523> and I was unlucky and not fast enough anyway both times
19:18:25 <oklofok> hmm, i should probably implement some coffee
19:18:52 <AnMaster> ais523, do you remember what level pack?
19:19:26 <ais523> it won't be one of the enigma ones because it had coffee in
19:19:42 <AnMaster> ais523, also there are some levels in "enigma 0.92" called "Pentimino", any clue what they are about?
19:19:54 <ais523> they're about pentominos, pretty obviously
19:19:57 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: the item in Enigma
19:20:03 <ais523> that does nothing because they haven't programmed it yet
19:20:04 <AnMaster> ais523, and what the *** is that?
19:20:17 <ais523> AnMaster: look it up on Wikipedia or Google or somewhere
19:20:29 <ais523> Tetris shapes are tetrominoes, pentominoes are like that but with one more square
19:20:39 <qhqrdghqst> 18:20 AnMaster: ais523, and what the *** is that? <-- what the ass?
19:20:42 <AnMaster> found it. "tool time" in 0.92 new
19:20:55 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: it's described vaguely as "pause the game"
19:21:16 <ais523> but from looking at the levels that use it, I suspect it multiplies durations by infinity
19:21:21 <ais523> so your umbrellas last forever, etc
19:21:33 <ais523> maybe it's limited-duration itself, or only when it's the first item on your list, or something, though
19:22:01 <oklofok> AnMaster: it's actually "heel"
19:22:08 <qhqrdghqst> wow, Slalom Skiing in 0.92-1 is hard (#17)
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19:23:54 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: yep, that one took me quite a while
19:23:58 <ais523> there's a trick to it, though
19:24:23 <ais523> even better, it's a trick you can work out entirely on visible information, it's not like there's a hidden thing you have to find or something like that
19:24:49 <ais523> <Enigma Wiki> In Oxyd®, you could take a break with this item. During the break, you could analyse the whole level stresslessly. In Enigma, the cup does not have any special properties yet.
19:24:53 <ais523> the definition of the coffee
19:25:50 <ais523> I did it on hard, and doing it on easy can be done the same way as doing it on hard
19:26:33 <qhqrdghqst> #58 light barriers, how do you get that block?!
19:27:04 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: did you do salom, above par, on hard, you solved it?
19:27:06 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, also the mirrors duh
19:27:12 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: 58 in which pack?
19:27:15 <qhqrdghqst> if so, did you solve slalmon, on hard, above par?
19:27:27 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, I solved it on both, on easy below par, on hard above par
19:27:38 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: I do not like them, Sam I am
19:28:02 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, what the hell are you referring to
19:28:25 <ais523> AnMaster: a Dr. Seuss book
19:28:31 <ais523> they're books of nonsense intended for children
19:28:31 <fizzie> ehird: Your culture is not universal, you know. Although I've heard enough by cultural osmosis to understand that much.
19:28:37 <ais523> and are great fun to read out loud
19:28:45 <qhqrdghqst> I'd say Green Eggs and Ham is fairly universal
19:28:54 <oklofok> i've heard that thing, don't know what it's about tho
19:28:56 <AnMaster> I did google "sam" but that returned Seattle Art Museum
19:29:01 <lament> anything in English is universal
19:29:05 <ais523> AnMaster: google "green eggs and ham"
19:29:09 <oklofok> actually i think it was just the name of an episode of some series
19:29:13 <fizzie> Incidentally, we watched some sort of green-eggs-and-ham cartoonification just the-day-before-yesterday.
19:29:20 <ais523> "I do not like green eggs and ham. I do not like them, Sam-I-Am."
19:29:54 <AnMaster> solved it below par here. and just two seconds above world record
19:30:25 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdR0LXOiEB8 I think was the clip.
19:33:39 <qhqrdghqst> A dark house on them am do I or there and eat if rain they anywhere eggs in Sam train are fox let asy tree be goat like see try boat good may so will box green me thank with car ham mouse that would could here not the you.
19:34:30 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, did you make that up now?
19:34:41 <qhqrdghqst> No, it's the complete set of words used in Green Eggs and Ham.
19:34:46 <qhqrdghqst> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Eggs_and_Ham#Lexicon
19:34:57 <qhqrdghqst> All 50 of them, of which 49 are monosyllabic.
19:37:01 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, I don't think they are intended to be written together like that
19:37:28 <qhqrdghqst> eggs in Sam train or fox... I think Dr Seuss is warning us from the grave
19:37:34 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, no, it is "for beginning readers" after all
19:37:37 <qhqrdghqst> The eggs in any train owned by Sam are inevitably foxes!
19:38:05 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, even an experienced reader have trouble keeping the context in such a long sentence
19:38:23 <qhqrdghqst> Someone make a huge sentence that ends with 10 proposition :-P
19:38:42 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, and someone made a sentence out of a single word: buffalo
19:38:47 <oklofok> ais523: "I do not like green eggs and ham. I do not like them, Sam-I-Am." <<< wait green eggs? :D something started gnawing me about that sentence, but i could not quite put my finger on it until now
19:38:57 <qhqrdghqst> Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo with.
19:39:07 <oklofok> (ofc green eggs might actually mean something other than rotten eggs, i just don't know what)
19:39:21 <ais523> in the book, they're just like ordinary eggs, except they're green
19:39:33 <AnMaster> oklofok, odd bird? spilled paint?
19:39:42 <fizzie> In the cartoon, the ham is also green, IIRC.
19:40:34 <oklofok> hmph, i've been trying to leave irc for like 20 minutes now, now seriously
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19:45:23 <AnMaster> http://swtch.com/plan9port/screenshots/opensolaris.png <-- is that window manager gnome?
19:45:36 <AnMaster> I thought Solaris had some custom one
19:46:09 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, I still think OpenWindows was a nice one ;P
19:46:17 <ais523> AnMaster: it's certainly possible to theme Gnome to look like that
19:46:25 <ais523> but you could do that with other window managers too
19:46:32 <qhqrdghqst> see: window decoration, the style of taskbar buttons
19:46:45 <qhqrdghqst> and the icons on the desktop & their shadow
19:46:51 <ais523> ah, I don't use default Gnome icons anyway
19:47:03 <ais523> you're right, the taskbar buttons look like unthemed Gnome
19:47:15 <qhqrdghqst> it's themed, just the default theme :P
19:48:24 <fizzie> Solaris' CDE wasn't what I'd call nice. Glrbh.
19:48:40 <ais523> the default theme is bluer than that
19:49:10 <AnMaster> ais523, well of course you can theme it, But the icons looked gnome style. So did the applets.
19:49:23 <AnMaster> since I remembered solaris using something else
19:49:29 <qhqrdghqst> well it's debian's default theme at least
19:49:42 <AnMaster> and I haven't used gnome for years
19:49:57 <qhqrdghqst> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-July/msg00269.html I think I understand why gnome is shit now
19:50:33 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, the linked images are 404
19:50:43 <qhqrdghqst> Yes. Because it is from 2005 and linkrot.
19:51:10 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, did it get accepted?
19:51:50 <AnMaster> so what the hell are you talking about
19:52:05 <AnMaster> http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2005-July/msg00269.html
19:52:12 <AnMaster> it seems to be a patch to change the theme
19:52:18 <ais523> what, they're making it-sensor visible in Enigma 1.01?
19:52:29 <ais523> they can't do that, or at least they should give an option for invisible sensors
19:52:48 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: it's an invisible item which makes commands run when you go over it
19:52:58 <AnMaster> ais523, also "making" implies engima 1.01 isn't released yet? I'm pretty sure it is
19:52:58 <ais523> like an invisible trigger, but you can't hear it and it doesn't care about stones
19:53:32 <AnMaster> ais523, can you place it below some other tile?
19:53:45 <ais523> you can have one floor, one stone, one item, and any number of actors on a square
19:54:05 <AnMaster> ais523, what about those levels where you go under something that looks like a floor?
19:54:16 <ais523> those are hollow stones which look the same as the floor beneath them
19:54:27 <ais523> so they can have an item under them
19:54:34 <ais523> and a floor under that (you wouldn't want to fall, would you?)
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20:04:08 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the things you gets with explosives. and remove with spades
20:04:35 <ais523> you know, because you can't drop an item on their square, but you can have different sorts of floor under them, and push stones over them
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20:26:23 <ais523> AnMaster: marbles, tops, etc
20:26:31 <ais523> things that aren't restricted to integer coordinates
20:27:06 <AnMaster> well I would assume they are, just integer coords == pixels instead of == tiles
20:34:22 <fizzie> AnMaster: You were an X-Chatter, right? Do you happen to know how the "Colored nick names" thing picks colors for nicks?
20:34:23 <ais523> so their physics simulations work better
20:35:00 <lament> fizzie: it picks the most appropriate color for the personality
20:36:07 <fizzie> lament: Do you feel purple, then?
20:36:49 <ais523> lament's a sort of mauve on my client, the same colour as fizzie
20:36:51 <lament> I do like purple prose.
20:36:54 <ais523> and FireFly, for that matter
20:37:06 <ais523> AnMaster's green, and qhqrdghqst's cyan
20:37:21 <ais523> oklofok is a slightly redder purple than lament
20:37:34 <FireFly> I've succeded in displaying a pic at my DS
20:37:37 <fizzie> I'm just wondering, because this has decided that ais523 and AnMaster have the same color, which is non-optimal as you people so often coincide temporally.
20:38:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, I used to use xchat once upon a time
20:38:25 <AnMaster> and I never used coloured nicks in xchat
20:38:44 <lament> it just hashes the nickname
20:38:49 <AnMaster> I tend to use three colours: "normal, highlighted, own message"
20:39:26 <AnMaster> ais523, and I'm more a dark blue person
20:39:35 <ais523> hey, I'm a dark blue person too
20:40:08 <AnMaster> ais523, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultramarine is nice
20:40:52 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, doesn't go with transparent I'm afraid
20:41:09 <fizzie> Well, the text part already has the normal-highlighted-own split, so I don't mind nicks being rather colorful.
20:41:40 <AnMaster> fizzie, I do that for all of the lines, and no nick column rainbow
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20:42:55 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, what do you think of the look of plan9
20:43:11 <fizzie> Seems that color_of(char *name) is just sum of all the bytes in name, modulo amount of colors in the fixed set used for nicknames.
20:43:23 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, you think GTK is worse?
20:43:48 <qhqrdghqst> fizzie: that's so boring I could take a shit on it.
20:43:59 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: Qt is acceptable. Sometimes.
20:44:26 <qhqrdghqst> (For guidance on the above sentence, see oerjan.)
20:44:31 <fizzie> Also the particular piece of code divides by sizeof (char), which is a rather silly way of saying 1.
20:44:53 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, well it is a "meta<whatever>" style pun I think
20:45:01 <AnMaster> that is it is supposed to sound like something else
20:45:25 <AnMaster> just did. But I'm not sure how to pronounce motif in English
20:45:27 <fizzie> It's "not if" when your nose is stuffed.
20:46:08 <AnMaster> it sound more like "note if" than "not if"
20:46:59 <qhqrdghqst> fizzie: Here's a nice colourerer: abs (foldl xor 255 nick).
20:47:00 <fizzie> * IPA: /məʊ'tif/; you do need a bit of imagination there.
20:47:07 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, so is it a long or a short t in motif?
20:47:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, I can't really read that
20:47:50 <qhqrdghqst> colourNick nick = foldl xor 255 (map ord nick)
20:47:54 <fizzie> "Moo-tif", the interface of choice for cows.
20:48:30 <qhqrdghqst> Prelude Data.Char Data.Bits Test.QuickCheck> colourNick "AnMaster"
20:48:31 <qhqrdghqst> Prelude Data.Char Data.Bits Test.QuickCheck> colourNick "ais523"
20:48:37 <AnMaster> fizzie, err so what is the difference between "note" and "not" then. It isn't "long/short" o
20:48:51 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: what is the number? selection between 256 possible colours?
20:49:01 <AnMaster> since motif ends up a bit like note if the way I say it
20:49:08 <ais523> it may be hard to find 256 different-looking colours
20:49:22 <qhqrdghqst> You don't get too many similar colours
20:49:37 <qhqrdghqst> let colourNick nick = foldl xor 16 (map ord nick) `mod` 16
20:50:47 <fizzie> AnMaster: "note" is /nəʊt/, "not" is just /nɒt/. So there's an "ou"-style diphthong in "note".
20:51:15 <fizzie> AnMaster: But yes, "motif" is closer to "note if" than "not if".
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20:52:05 <AnMaster> I just got an idea for the perfect OS
20:52:22 <ais523> probably quite different from ehird's/my
20:52:29 <qhqrdghqst> That is what I was thinking, ais523...
20:52:30 <AnMaster> It would be a combination of Genera, Plan 9 and QNX
20:52:31 <ais523> which are somewhat different from each other
20:52:49 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: well, first, those are so completely different that you couldn't combine them reasonably
20:52:57 <qhqrdghqst> secondly, QNX isn't very interesting apart from being embedded
20:53:10 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, it is very stable though
20:53:19 <AnMaster> what about just combining the first two?
20:53:27 <qhqrdghqst> "AnMaster: well, first, those are so completely different that you couldn't combine them reasonably"
20:53:37 <qhqrdghqst> Adding random good stuff together isn't a recipe for success.
20:54:04 <fizzie> QNX does have interesting aspects. The distributedness stuff is fancy.
20:54:24 <AnMaster> and having almost everything in userspace
20:54:37 <AnMaster> I mean, IPC and scheduling are in kernel, that's about it
20:54:51 <ais523> my OS is so microkernel, it even has its userspace in userspace!
20:55:27 <AnMaster> all your features are belong to userspace
20:55:45 <fizzie> There was also something funny related to the file systemics, but I've forgotten what it was. My only QNX experiments were several years ago.
20:56:41 <AnMaster> http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/img/mirtchov/interpolate.gif <-- that's pretty
20:58:17 <AnMaster> "And GIMP now supports CMYK" <-- ? Really? *looks*
21:02:45 <AnMaster> looks like a future version will have it
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21:18:05 <fizzie> I am definitely not ready for this third-millennium gooey-IRC thing.
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21:19:23 <qhqrdghqst> I think I should make a realtime javascript raytracer. (At this point qhqrdghqst dies of unbelievable stupidity.)
21:19:43 <Asztal_> fizzie: did you press Ctrl-W?
21:19:45 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: it'll take you something like 20 years for the hardware to catch up
21:19:46 <fizzie> I somehow accidentally closed this tab-or-whatever-it-is, maybe with ^w or something. I've never accidentally typed "/part #esoteric" or something.
21:20:09 <ais523> accidental mouse clicks are what most commonly close tabs by mistake for me
21:20:10 <AnMaster> ais523, ctrl-m in xchat is "move marker of last line read in channel" iirc
21:20:18 <fizzie> Hey, with TraceMonkey it'll be native-code-speed.
21:20:24 <fizzie> It's "mvoe marker line".
21:20:28 <ais523> AnMaster: err... why are you nickpinging me with that details?
21:20:45 <ais523> fizzie: unfortunately native speed isn't fast enough for realtime raytracing either
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21:21:14 <AnMaster> "<Asztal_> fizzie: did you press Ctrl-W?" turned out as "<ais523> fizzie: did you press Ctrl-M?"
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21:22:16 <fizzie> There's been things that you could consider real-time ray-tracing, if you want to be polite about it, in demoscene prods a long time.
21:22:52 <qhqrdghqst> On June 12, 2008 Intel demonstrated Enemy Territory: Quake Wars using ray tracing for rendering, running in basic HD (720p) resolution. ETQW operated at 14-29 frames per second. The demonstration ran on a 16-core (4 socket, 4 core) Tigerton system running at 2.93 GHz.[10]
21:23:19 <ais523> AnMaster: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/16/1839231
21:23:22 <fizzie> qhqrdghqst: Just get a couple of microwaves, then you can do another core-counting experiment.
21:23:31 <ais523> it seems that Intel and AMD are rowing over x86
21:23:43 <ais523> if they end up revoking each other's licences, all sorts of ridiculous things could happen
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21:24:01 <qhqrdghqst> ais523: probably they'll just find a loophole and change a minor bug to make it "not x86"
21:24:04 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo.
21:24:22 <AnMaster> <ais523> AnMaster: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/03/16/1839231 <-- huh
21:24:35 <ais523> because only ehird links people to things randomly?
21:25:10 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, what about the cx original?
21:25:23 <qhqrdghqst> AnMaster: someone else owns it; it has a picture of a LEGO thing that looks like a goatse but it's SWF.
21:25:58 <fizzie> "Buy a piece of Internet history."
21:26:12 <ais523> qhqrdghqst: what happened to the picture of Bill O'Reilly?
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21:31:05 <ais523> what's the horrible idea?
21:31:15 <fizzie> Maybe he went to implement it immediately.
21:45:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:45:53 <fizzie> It seems to have been a really horrible one.
22:10:26 <AnMaster> qhqrdghqst, btw do you know any good breakout game for OS X that is free?
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22:35:16 * comex wonders how to implement motion blur in canvas
22:35:42 <comex> where by "motion blur" I just mean blend in some previous frames
22:35:50 <comex> I guess you could create invisible canvases
22:39:10 <fizzie> You could just always draw N frames, but that doesn't sound very fast.
22:40:17 <Asztal_> by invisible canvases do you mean translucent canvases?
22:41:07 <Asztal_> have 5 canvases, and draw to each one in turn, changing the Z-order so that the most-recently-drawn-to canvas is at the top
22:41:31 <comex> that would work :|
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22:42:54 <comex> I just crashed firefox
22:43:37 <fizzie> You can also use the toDataURL("image/png") or something to get the current frame as an image, then render those. But that would mean one extra PNG creation operation and N-1 extra PNG decoding operations per frame. The "pile of canvasii" approach sounds most sensible.
22:44:18 <comex> I was going to do a translucent draw under the assumption that it's probably faster than css
22:44:57 <comex> but since that means copying data and the other approach doesn't
22:46:32 <fizzie> There seems to be some sort of getImageData functions you maybe could use; it still involves copying, but at least there's no PNG creation stuff.
22:46:39 <Asztal_> the canvas3D canvas context would make this a lot faster :)
22:47:02 <comex> yeah, I'm using that
22:47:09 <comex> looks like I can't putimagedata between canvases
22:47:43 <comex> SOMEONE is finally havnig hardware-accelerated 3d
22:48:31 <comex> I was just setting it up wrong
22:51:38 <comex> firefox is leaking memory like crazy
22:51:54 <comex> it's not freeing the image datas
22:52:16 <comex> well, I'll use the overlay-canvases approach
22:53:34 <fizzie> It does sound simpler, at the very least.
22:58:23 <comex> http://qoid.us/cv.html <-- don't run in a slow browser
23:02:02 <comex> where by "ball" I mean "square"
23:03:51 <comex> I wonder how slow collision detection will be
23:04:00 <comex> maybe slow if I have 100 balls
23:04:17 <psygnisfive> if you do quad tree searching it should be efficient
23:04:23 <comex> what the fuck is that
23:05:12 <psygnisfive> well, for your thing it wouldnt be an issue since you're using squares
23:05:40 <comex> actually, screw collision detection
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23:07:49 <comex> xor http://qoid.us/cv.html
23:12:46 <comex> because what if they're colliding by multiple pixels
23:14:06 <psygnisfive> then you better get a time resolution good enough for that to happen :)
23:17:49 <oklofok> comex: quad trees are one of the data structures that split R^n into hypercubes so you can check whether containing hypercubes intersect before doing the actual collision check.
23:18:38 <comex> psygnisfive: it's not fast enough :p
23:18:42 <oklofok> err actually quad tree is not one of them.
23:18:46 <comex> I guess I can do physics faster than actually drawing
23:18:51 * comex tries to get canvas 3d to work on beta 3.1
23:18:55 <oklofok> but guess it can be used as such
23:19:05 <ehird> comex: that's shit
23:19:28 <ehird> http://www.blahbleh.com/whyiesucks.htm
23:19:36 <ehird> a 3d cube, with motion blur, in canvas, getting ~50fps
23:19:41 <ehird> ur doing it wrong, evidently :P
23:19:57 <ehird> yeah, and... motion blur isn't that hard?
23:19:58 <comex> the boxes are going perfectly fast (not measuring fps)
23:20:10 <ehird> AnMaster: lbreakout2
23:20:12 <comex> I believe that's drawing the cubes repeatedly for the motion blur
23:20:21 <comex> but they do collide by more than one pixel I think
23:20:23 <ehird> anyway, my delay was me scraping most of the skin off the back of my foot ^_^
23:20:33 <ehird> By mistake, that is.
23:20:44 <pikhq> 50 FPS *with an encoding run going*.
23:21:03 * comex stabs pikhq with rapier
23:21:05 <oklofok> psygnisfive: you can tell me seven sentences
23:21:16 <ehird> anyway, awful idea time
23:21:22 <psygnisfive> all learnable natural language quantifiers are conservative.
23:21:49 <pikhq> And this on 4 year old hardware.
23:22:02 <oklofok> psygnisfive: interesting! what does that mean?`
23:22:04 <ehird> Canvas is still shit :P
23:22:08 <oklofok> you can have another 7 words.
23:22:12 <comex> it's quite fast and a lot better than flash
23:22:21 <pikhq> ehird: Less shit than everything else.
23:22:21 <ehird> comex: compare that to SDL
23:22:31 <pikhq> Well, everything else on the web.
23:22:31 <ehird> heck you could script SDL with spidermonkey
23:22:34 <ehird> it'd be 39487539457345 times faster
23:22:48 <pikhq> Compared to a proper programming environment, well, yeah. Canvas sucks.
23:22:57 <psygnisfive> suppose Q is a quantifier, relating two sets, e.g. Q(X,Y) = |X intersect Y| > |X-Y| (== "most X are Y")
23:23:18 <psygnisfive> then Q is conservative if and only if: Q(X,Y) iff Q(X, X intersect Y)
23:23:30 <comex> really 300 trillion times faster?
23:24:29 <comex> http://hg.mozilla.org/users/vladimir_mozilla.com/canvas3d/
23:24:33 <comex> how the fuck am I supposed to compile that
23:24:49 <ehird> http://hg.mozilla.org/users/vladimir_mozilla.com/canvas3d/file/f050229f6011/Makefile.in
23:24:51 <ehird> Makefile.in; happy?
23:25:50 <ehird> actually, my evil idea is kinda related to this
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23:27:10 <pikhq> autoreconf&&./configure&&make&&make install?
23:31:14 <psygnisfive> all conservative quantifiers can be built up in very simple was
23:31:24 <ehird> seeing psygnisfive get excited about linguistics amuses me
23:32:21 <psygnisfive> any boolean operation over conservative quantifiers gives a conservative quantifier
23:33:02 <psygnisfive> and: Q(X intersect C, Y) is conservative, for any set C
23:33:18 <psygnisfive> and these two together produce ALL and ONLY the conservative quantifiers
23:33:33 <psygnisfive> if you start with a single conservative quantifier all(X,Y)
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23:35:57 <oklofok> well i think i don't actually know what you mean by quantifier when it comes to language
23:36:52 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
23:36:59 <oklofok> what quantifier would 5 be?
23:38:43 <oklofok> so how would you construct most out of all?
23:40:39 <oklofok> what is legal in the transformation?
23:40:52 <psygnisfive> boolean combinations of other conservative quantifiers
23:40:57 <oklofok> just all(all(X),all(all(Y),all(Z))) kinda stuff? :|
23:43:31 <psygnisfive> ill look at my references and see if they mention how to construct most from all
23:43:46 <oklofok> do look, i'm not really in a thinking mood, kind of a math overdose
23:45:02 <oklofok> oh my god i want to learn chemistry
23:45:53 <oklofok> well you know molecules and stuff they're very pretty.
23:46:56 <psygnisfive> "A semantic characterization of natural language determiners" is one of the papers that discusses this
23:47:21 <oklofok> well why don't you go look then :-)
23:48:16 <psygnisfive> i have another article i can give you a copy of
23:48:30 <oklofok> nooooo exam next monday and i forgot to begin my reading journey today.
23:52:31 <oklofok> buttt... i need to start my readings!
23:54:28 <ehird> Star Trek: Some hydrogen stars go trekking. It's a gas!