< 1237766946 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1237766976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HOW TO ANNOY A PHYSICIST < 1237766979 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: what are quarks made of < 1237766996 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes I'm sure abs(i)=-1 < 1237767016 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some physicists might say quarks are made of strings, I guess? < 1237767020 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: depends on your definition of abs < 1237767031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what are strings made of :D < 1237767049 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have done pseudo-math stuff before < 1237767062 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Strings are made of spacetime < 1237767065 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird : cat guts < 1237767089 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Slereah_: so.. it's a fractal universe? < 1237767097 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cat guts are made of [...] quarks which are made of cat guts. < 1237767106 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And absolute value is defined as the distance from zero (at least that is how I define it and I have seen that definition but only once, and not in a book that discusses complex numbers) < 1237767119 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like my universes recursive < 1237767144 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sometimes I think of the universes recursive also, but not always < 1237767192 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will describe the INTERCAL program I wrote in case you can't read it: < 1237767222 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is the distance of i from zero -1? < 1237767225 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The DO |1 <- #0 DO |2 <- #100$#0 means to make |1 refer to a new zero qubit and |2 to refer to a new one qubit < 1237767238 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The distance of i from zero is positive 1. < 1237767254 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Therefore abs(i)=+1 < 1237767257 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: it applies to complex numbers as well, just use pythagoras: abs(a+b*i) = sqrt(a^2+b^2) < 1237767258 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not -1 < 1237767269 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: Yes I'm sure abs(i)=-1 <<< okay this just confused me a bit < 1237767281 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I already knew it applied to complex numbers as well and have used pythagoras. < 1237767297 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: That was an error I meant abs(i)=+1 < 1237767318 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The lines DO TRANSFORM |1 DO TRANSFORM |2 applies the Hadamard transform to each register < 1237767334 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(13000) is the line label for the quantum black box function < 1237767342 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then it Hadamard transform again < 1237767355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, you made a truly quantum INTERCAL, rather than the one in CLC-INTERCAL that's just disguised multithreading? < 1237767367 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: +1 = -1 in any field of characteristic 2 *ducks obscurely* < 1237767368 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then it sets .1 to zero, and .1 to one if |1 measures to one < 1237767376 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFK < 1237767386 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: like the field of one-bit numbers? < 1237767399 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then the DO READ OUT .1 since it is not a quantum command, will force a measurement and output zero or one (in roman numerals, of course). < 1237767403 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that would be the prime field of c. 2, yes < 1237767429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-1i = 1i right? I'm rusty on corner cases. < 1237767429 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, I made (but not implemented yet!) a truly quantum INTERCAL, rather than the fake one in CLC-INTERCAL. < 1237767454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's worrying enough < 1237767459 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: erm not in the complex numbers < 1237767460 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've used | in C-INTERCAL < 1237767468 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I can think of a way to implement it, I'll have to try < 1237767469 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not right now < 1237767471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: er right < 1237767490 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In CLCLC-INTERCAL the | operator has a different meaning than it did in C-INTERCAL (if it had a meaning at all in C-INTERCAL) < 1237767519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't have a meaning in C-INTERCAL < 1237767526 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in CLC-INTERCAL, it's one of the TriINTERCAL operators, I think < 1237767528 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't remember which one < 1237767557 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: (TriINTERCAL) Yes that's what I think too. But CLCLC-INTERCAL doesn't have TriINTERCAL so you don't have to worry about that < 1237767575 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stop breaking sidewards compatibility! < 1237767607 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want compatibility, just run it in compatibility mode!!!! < 1237767647 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what's "sidewards compatibility" anyways? I have only heard of backward and forward but not sideways < 1237767693 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compatibility between unrelated impls of the same language < 1237767712 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the important thing here should be snidewards compatibility < 1237767717 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yes i know that much field theory < 1237767734 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must support all the inside jokes < 1237767737 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and much more by next friday < 1237767740 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, there's compatibility if you run it in compatibility mode. Even FreeBASIC also has a compatibility mode and non-compatibility mode (and I use both modes of FreeBASIC). < 1237767741 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1237767743 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::DD < 1237767753 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does freebasic let you poke to graphics memory < 1237767755 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: that's a great pun, a really great pun < 1237767766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCREEN 13 \n POKE x+(y*320), colour < 1237767766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1237767770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1237767772 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can I use that in C-INTERCAL advertising? < 1237767772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :add a def seg in there < 1237767783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's one of the best puns I've seen yet, and it's on-topic < 1237767790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: someone should buy a google adwords for intercal < 1237767792 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FreeBASIC doesn't support DEF SEG, you have to use absolute addresses without segments < 1237767794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for "programming" or something < 1237767796 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: i would be honored, i had no idea it was that good < 1237767802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it wasn't < 1237767814 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION swats ehird -----###
< 1237767819 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERROR HANDLER PRINTED SNIDE REMARK < 1237767824 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STOP PULLING ME DOWN TO EARTH < 1237767843 0 :neldoreth!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Lost terminal" < 1237767869 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes maybe CLCLC-INTERCAL should have a "snidewards compatibility" mode as well just to be weird, whatever that means (does it have something to do with printing snide remarks or something like that?) < 1237767884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION suddenly envisions hackwards compatibility
< 1237767887 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: read up on INTERCAL error messages sometime < 1237767896 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must ... complete ... the set < 1237767902 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: compatibility with unofficially modified versions of itself? < 1237767908 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe. < 1237767958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1237767960 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ya maybe even compatibility with unofficially modified version of itself (but only if you enable that option) < 1237767983 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: I can't think of a way to complete the set < 1237767985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if anyone can, it's you < 1237767991 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you should implement CLCLC-INTERCAL by making a library specifically for options < 1237767994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and writing all the rest as options < 1237768021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, --check-politeness, --constant-fold < 1237768024 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for- is such a boring prefix to rhyme < 1237768029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the options depend on other options for stages as the compiler < 1237768067 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: CLC-INTERCAL is implemented similarly to that anyway < 1237768080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not really < 1237768083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not entirely based on options < 1237768086 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION finds it amusing that whenever anyone tries to think of a /really bad/ compiler design, CLC-INTERCAL already has it covered
< 1237768094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: the options just change which compiler files are linked in < 1237768097 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so arguably, yes < 1237768099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: with this, for instance, < 1237768102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could do < 1237768107 0 :neldoreth!n=user@unixboard/users/neldoreth JOIN :#esoteric < 1237768111 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are default option sets, but they're in an rc file < 1237768113 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's good way, maybe have options depend on other options for stages as the compiler. < 1237768124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :icick --compile --no-compile-assignments < 1237768131 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would turn on compile and its dependencies but turn off --compile-assignments < 1237768137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it'd work exactly as normal but you couldn't assign to anything < 1237768161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: CLC-INTERCAL could trivially be modified to do that < 1237768162 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that in CLCLC-INTERCAL it uses the old type of options that 1972 INTERCAL used (see the wiki page for details, and checking politeness is one of them). < 1237768163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :option dependencies would be function calls < 1237768164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty much < 1237768167 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some commands, like NEXT are in their own preloads already < 1237768170 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := options < 1237768172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's a matter of implementation < 1237768182 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a matter of splitting apart the files to be finer-graned < 1237768187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*grained < 1237768196 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in mine, the whole compiler is one huge block simply using a massively bloated option parser < 1237768199 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes both CLC-INTERCAL and CLCLC-INTERCAL could make assignment stop working, either DO ABSTAIN FROM CALCULATING or modify the syntax so that the assignment command does nothing < 1237768206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and instead of calling functions it depends on arguments in just the right way < 1237768285 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you modify syntax at *RUN-TIME ONLY*, not compile-time. In CLC-INTERCAL you could do both but in CLCLC-INTERCAL you can do so only at run-time. However, if you want to do all the changes at once you could CREATE a syntax that does all the other changes at once and then add the command that was just created to the end of that file. The next file in the stack will then be executed using the new compiler < 1237768310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole point with CLC-INTERCAL is you can't tell compile time from runtime < 1237768312 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm maybe forkwards compatibility < 1237768331 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: not bad, although that's much the same as sidewards probably < 1237768403 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe furwards or firwards for the environmentalists < 1237768407 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL compilation idea: Just Late Compilation < 1237768420 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In CLC-INTERCAL I think you can decide whether to change syntax at compile-time or run-time by using crawling-registers, but CLCLC-INTERCAL has no crawling-registers < 1237768428 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: :D < 1237768429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It interprets the program and compiles it simultaneously. Once it's compiled a part, it rewinds the program up to that point and runs the faster compiled version. < 1237768434 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: awesome < 1237768435 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Just-Too-Late is Claudio's name for CLC-INTERCAL's compilation method < 1237768440 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: haha, really? < 1237768445 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1237768454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it works by running the program until it gets an error, then compiling the bit that errored and trying again < 1237768469 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the error is typically a syntax error due to the code in the section not having been parsed < 1237768628 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in CLCLC-INTERCAL how the compiler should probably work, is each time a file is load or the command CREATE or DESTROY or IMPORT is used, it has to recompile the current file. < 1237768643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that's boring < 1237768650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :neither C-INTERCAL nor CLC-INTERCAL work like that < 1237768657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, C-INTERCAL does all the compilation at compile time < 1237768665 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things that don't have a meaning yet are speculatively compiled < 1237768670 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that they can run if they're given a meaning < 1237768679 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DESTROY should be CREMATE, just for the confusion < 1237768695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, C-INTERCAL has CREATE but not DESTROY < 1237768712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ao < 1237768713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so < 1237768715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm stark raving mad. < 1237768727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this much istrue < 1237768752 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i would quote lewis carroll but people started complaining about it < 1237768754 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But isn't CREATE in C-INTERCAL different than the CLC-INTERCAL and CLCLC-INTERCAL? < 1237768770 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, it's limited to things that the compiler has a chance of guessing at with no context < 1237768775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if anyone wants to know why I'm stark raving mad, ask in /msg because it's too mad for this place (no, really.) < 1237768776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there are various grammar restrictions on it < 1237768789 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: maybe later, I have to go home soon < 1237768798 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that's probably the second time you've mentioned it here < 1237768809 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if it's madder than creating your own email client, probably I don't want to know < 1237768815 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1237768829 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't ask in /msg there is no such nick/channel < 1237768831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, that's mad? < 1237768838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: heh < 1237768866 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have created my own email client before but now I don't use email anymore < 1237768872 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: are you sure it's too mad for here? < 1237768876 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that even physically possible? < 1237768876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: maybe < 1237768882 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you have no email account? < 1237768883 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client" < 1237768886 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*psychically possible < 1237768896 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, that took ais523_ a while, given the computer was forcibly shut down < 1237768900 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 4 minutes ago < 1237769161 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I changed the CLCLC-INTERCAL wiki page so that it says that CREMATE is the new name for DESTROY (if you don't like it, you can create the new syntax for DESTROY so that DESTROY works as well) < 1237769262 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yes I have no email. But sometimes it requires email to register for something so I just wrote my own SMTP server and run it only when I am expecting one of those messages, and then cancel the SMTP server afterward < 1237769271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's awesome :D < 1237769276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't live without email though < 1237769281 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. mailing lists < 1237769288 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is really quite an impressive way to get a single-use email address < 1237769305 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: what should people use instead to contact you? Push-gopher? < 1237769376 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is currently no real way. If you are a member of any message boards I go on, you can send a private message there. You can also post a comment on ChronoJournal. And if you know my house address or telephone number (neither of which I will tell you) then you can use that < 1237769414 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you should invent a way that somehow lets people send messages to you via the finger protocol < 1237769425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be ridiculous and nobody could use it, which is what you want in a message service < 1237769472 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone should invent push-gopher now < 1237769474 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O that's easy to write a way to send messages by finger protocol, just put the message as the query. And it can easily be sent too, with netcat or any finger client. But I don't currently plan on doing this < 1237769480 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :along the same lines as PTTH < 1237769488 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's push-gopher supposed to do anyways? < 1237769505 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what's PTTH < 1237769510 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like gopher, but you send someone else to your gopher page, rather than visiting theirs < 1237769522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and PTTH is a new thing coming out of the IETF, it's like HTTP but in reverse < 1237769531 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PTTH was designed for second life < 1237769533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe. < 1237769549 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you mean PFFFTH < 1237769564 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: O that's easy to write a way to send messages by finger protocol, just put the message as the query. <-- that's boring though, it should be like, accessing two finger sites dit and dot which are interpreted as morse code < 1237769565 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O. I understand now. I could implement that if I wanted to, I guess. < 1237769622 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, you want to use morse code? < 1237769630 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you can use morse code if you want to. < 1237769662 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Send a voice-mail to someone with morse-code so that the computer can print out your voice-mail. Someone once asked "How do I print my voicemail?" < 1237769691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i was thinking like < 1237769699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finger dit.zzo38computer.cjb.net < 1237769699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finger dit.zzo38computer.cjb.net < 1237769700 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finger dit.zzo38computer.cjb.net < 1237769703 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finger dot.zzo38computer.cjb.net < 1237769706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finger pause.zzo38computer.cjb.net < 1237769708 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then you'd do < 1237769710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :finger end.zzo38computer.cjb.net < 1237769710 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to stop < 1237769712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1237769763 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Interesting for hypothetical esoteric programming stuff, but not for real use < 1237769791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: you could make an smtp server that takes a message and converts it to morse code then does that < 1237769830 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's possible, but I have no plans to do that < 1237769856 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And next time someone asks you how to print their voice-mail, ask them if they receive their voice-mail in morse-code < 1237769901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1237770258 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People can already send message to me by connecting to my HTTP site and typing a message in the URL, it will be logged, however I hardly ever read the server logs and have no guarantee that I will ever read your message. < 1237770284 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1237770297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: i left you an http message < 1237770341 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thanks I found it. But that's only because you told me about it < 1237770374 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe if we do it as a subtle DOS attack... < 1237770395 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't do the DOS attack... < 1237770422 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But sending me a message by HTTP is a good way to do it in case someone is communicating with me on a live public service where private messages are not possible. < 1237770433 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know any other circumstance in which it would be useful. < 1237770492 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1237770667 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1237772335 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Bedwards" < 1237772555 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1237772740 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1237773421 0 :Nevar!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1237773509 0 :bsmntbombdood_!n=gavin@97-118-125-166.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1237775697 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"BigDecimal(): Not a number: 1" < 1237775699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, er... < 1237777215 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Irony in command line arguments: --ignore-case and --IGNORE-CASE do different things. < 1237777243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kerlo: :D < 1237777421 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that a joke, or serious? What do they do? < 1237777455 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are arguments that less takes < 1237777480 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One ignores case when the search or whatever contains only lowercase letters; the other ignores case in all cases. < 1237777491 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Lol, "in all cases".) < 1237777528 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1237781801 0 :neldoreth!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1237781812 0 :neldoreth!n=user@unixboard/users/neldoreth JOIN :#esoteric < 1237782359 0 :cherez!n=cherez@cpe-69-76-143-134.kc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1237782369 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1237788164 0 :GreaseMonkey!n=gm@unaffiliated/greasemonkey JOIN :#esoteric < 1237790129 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1237792321 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1237792369 0 :bsmntbombdood!n=gavin@97-118-125-166.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1237792448 0 :psygnisfive!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1237793351 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo < 1237793729 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm < 1237795199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1237795200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1237798354 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1237798627 0 :Slereah!n=butt@ANantes-259-1-37-228.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1237801487 0 :tombom!i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1237801913 0 :CakeProphet!n=seveninc@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1237801971 0 :GreaseMonkey!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"X-Chat -> http://xchat.org <- At least when I quit I don't look like a lamer" < 1237805012 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1237806265 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1237807837 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1237809389 0 :ineiros!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809393 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809393 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809397 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809399 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809399 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809399 0 :kerlo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809402 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809403 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809404 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809404 0 :Asztal_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809406 0 :neldoreth!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809407 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809407 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809409 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809409 0 :ski__!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809411 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809412 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809412 0 :mtve-!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809414 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809416 0 :Dewi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809416 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809416 0 :CakeProphet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809418 0 :Robdgreat!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1237809480 0 :CakeProphet!n=seveninc@wikipedia/The-Prophet-Wizard-of-the-Crayon-Cake JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :tombom!i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :Slereah!n=butt@ANantes-259-1-37-228.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :neldoreth!n=user@unixboard/users/neldoreth JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :oklofok!n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :Asztal_!n=asztal@cpc1-stkn13-2-0-cust673.11-2.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :ehird!n=ehird@208.78.103.223 JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-86-234.w81-49.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :kerlo!n=ihope@normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :fungot!n=fungot@83.150.124.64 JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :mtve-!n=nmtve@65.98.99.53 JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :ineiros!n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :Ilari!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@ludios.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :GregorR!n=gregor@65.183.185.209 JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809480 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@tavi.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809481 0 :Dewi!n=dewi@124-171-157-47.dyn.iinet.net.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809481 0 :Robdgreat!i=rob@unaffiliated/robdgreat JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809481 0 :lament!n=lament@S010600110999ad06.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809481 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809481 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809481 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809481 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1237809481 0 :ski__!n=md9slj@remote3.student.chalmers.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1237819532 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-091-089-027-168.hsi2.kabelbw.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1237819982 0 :Judofyr!n=Judofyr@c349BBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1237822178 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1237822434 0 :oklofok!n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1237823421 0 :Slereah_!n=butt@ANantes-259-1-41-87.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1237824016 0 :Hiato!n=1@dsl-245-1-23.telkomadsl.co.za JOIN :#esoteric < 1237824071 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1237825010 0 :cherez1!n=cherez@69.76.143.134 JOIN :#esoteric < 1237825618 0 :tromp!n=tromp@rtc34-211.rentec.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1237825953 0 :cherez1!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1237826501 0 :cherez!n=cherez@69.76.143.134 JOIN :#esoteric < 1237827134 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1237827855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, PGP's source is publicly available. (Not FOSS, though.) < 1237827857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't know. < 1237828193 0 :cherez!n=cherez@cpe-69-76-143-134.kc.res.rr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1237828197 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1237828549 0 :Hiato!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving." < 1237829004 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable) < 1237830754 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1237830843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, heh < 1237830853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anything wrong with gpg though? < 1237830856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1237830914 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are even nice GUI frontends for gpg. And (this may surprise you) I use such a GUI frontend most of the time, because I find it hard to remember all the command line switches and what not < 1237830927 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know :P < 1237830929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anything like kgpg or such for OS X? < 1237830936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah there's gpg stuff for os x < 1237830944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what I really want is something unifying gpg and ssh keys < 1237830956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, like ssh-agent/gpg-agent? < 1237830963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or what do you mean < 1237830964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean the whole actual thing < 1237830969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use your gpg identity as an ssh key < 1237830975 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1237830975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of having two key pairs < 1237830992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they are technically incompatible though < 1237831001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could make some combined file format or such I guess < 1237831013 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course they're incompatible < 1237831016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying I wish they weren't :P < 1237831065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An irritating thing about gnupg is their refusal to provide a library < 1237831068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, do you use ssh-agent? < 1237831072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or gpg-agent < 1237831087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To be honest, I haven't got round to setting up an ssh key on my server yet. < 1237831092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1237831111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still trying to think of a way to make sudo use my ssh key, thus completely removing passwords from the equation :-) < 1237831132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that is rather easy: generate a key, do: ssh-copy-id -i ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub foo@bar.org < 1237831141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well you will need to adjust the paths of course < 1237831147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's nothing to do with sudo < 1237831162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well true, but I meant copying the id is dead easy < 1237831171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know. I've done it before :-) < 1237831174 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Even easier: < 1237831180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just scp it to authorized_keys < 1237831187 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.ssh/authorized_keys that is < 1237831207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4.16) Can't we have a gpg library? < 1237831207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This has been frequently requested. However, the current viewpoint of the GnuPG maintainers is that this would lead to several security issues and will therefore not be implemented in the foreseeable future. However, for some areas of application gpgme could do the trick. You'll find it at . < 1237831210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ don't like that attitude < 1237831241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what sort of security issues? Programmers using the library incorrectly? < 1237831247 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that's the idea < 1237831249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's just stupid < 1237831250 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1237831261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use gpg's tools improperly too < 1237831272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the API is high level enough it shouldn't be an issue < 1237831294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, basically API for what you can do with the command line tool < 1237831301 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1237831301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it should be no more insecure < 1237831361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, though since it is C I guess stuff like memory corruption in the program using the library could mean that a separate process would be more secure < 1237831377 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hee you just reminded me of the debian issue < 1237831385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the openssl one? < 1237831387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1237831394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hur hur they're using uninitialized memory, well they must be stoopids! *comments out* < 1237831402 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dumbo security guys ha ha < 1237831406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that is the wrong way to solve it indeed. < 1237831423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how they did it just so valgrind would shut up < 1237831424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a better idea would have been to report it upstream < 1237831430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1237831431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't a bug < 1237831437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was an intentional source of entropy < 1237831438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm ok < 1237831449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not sure how random that would be < 1237831454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int main(void) { return 0; } /* 100% valgrind clean */ < 1237831477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: in the process they commented out the main entropy source < 1237831479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, only with the default suppressions for libc internals < 1237831491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so instead of just decreasing it a bit it pummeled it < 1237831492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ld.so too < 1237831505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, heh < 1237831517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I wonder what they did to python then.... < 1237831522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it isn't valgrind clean < 1237831526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by design < 1237831526 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1237831529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ln -s python perl < 1237831532 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1237831534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reverse that. < 1237831584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, basically pythons' allocator does some quite (but not 100% in theory) safe stuff < 1237831589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1237831592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :python's* < 1237831596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite safe stuff? < 1237831597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typo? :D < 1237831615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err? < 1237831634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what typo? < 1237831639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"basically python's allocator does some quite safe stuff" < 1237831640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the one I corrected? < 1237831643 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doing safe stuff makes python complain now? < 1237831644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1237831647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/python/valgrind/ < 1237831659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no not exactly. < 1237831681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, pymalloc reads uninitialised memory < 1237831699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1237831700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me check the details in README.valgrind in python's source tarball < 1237831700 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why < 1237831754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : PyMalloc needs to know whether an arbitrary address is one < 1237831754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : that's managed by it, or is managed by the system malloc. < 1237831754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The current scheme allows this to be determined in constant < 1237831754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : time, regardless of how many memory areas are under pymalloc's < 1237831754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : control. < 1237831762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The memory pymalloc manages itself is in one or more "arenas", < 1237831762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : each a large contiguous memory area obtained from malloc. < 1237831762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The base address of each arena is saved by pymalloc < 1237831763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in a vector. Each arena is carved into "pools", and a field at < 1237831765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the start of each pool contains the index of that pool's arena's < 1237831767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : base address in that vector. < 1237831772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Given an arbitrary address, pymalloc computes the pool base < 1237831772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : address corresponding to it, then looks at "the index" stored < 1237831773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : near there. If the index read up is out of bounds for the < 1237831776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : vector of arena base addresses pymalloc maintains, then < 1237831777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pymalloc knows for certain that this address is not under < 1237831779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pymalloc's control. Otherwise the index is in bounds, and < 1237831781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pymalloc compares < 1237831783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the arena base address stored at that index in the vector < 1237831785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : to < 1237831787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the arbitrary address pymalloc is investigating < 1237831787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... < 1237831788 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude. < 1237831789 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1237831791 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is < 1237831793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some < 1237831794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking < 1237831796 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flood < 1237831798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually I should have pastebinned it yes < 1237831806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Python is so boringly conventional, its implementation does nooo fun tricks. < 1237831832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway point is that it reads uninitialised memory. < 1237831848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rite. < 1237831930 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.128 JOIN :#esoteric < 1237831946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1237831956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, strlen() could do that too, since the glibc optimised strlen() reads 4 or 8 bytes at a time to speed up, it means it could read past end of string a few bytes. But it is quite safe since it will read 4- or 8- aligned bytes. And the system pagesize is a multiple of that so it can never hit a non-readable page. < 1237831967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hello ais523 < 1237831967 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I knew you'd said hi ais523 without even looking at the channel < 1237831967 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom is so boringly conventional, she does nooo fun tricks < 1237831970 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know how glibc strlen() works, AnMaster. < 1237831974 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just based on the fact I'd been highlighted < 1237831975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I advocated it. < 1237831976 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hi AnMaster < 1237831976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To comex. :P < 1237831988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway valgrind has a default suppression for that < 1237832006 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what if there's a memory-mapped hardware address past the end of the string < 1237832017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the string itself is entirely in memory-mapped hardware, but you don't mind reading those addresses? < 1237832062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm, I don't think you can map anywhere but a multiple of the page size on x86 at least < 1237832067 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About fun tricks (that we talked about here earlier): according to That One Wiki, people actually have been doing "swap palettes during the screen drawing to get more colors" tricks with CGA cards: "The best example of this in use is the game California Games[8] when run on a stock 4.77 MHz 8088. (Running it on a faster computer does not produce the effect, as the method the programmers used to switch palettes at predetermined locations is extremely sensitive < 1237832067 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : to machine speed.)" < 1237832074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and glibc have different strlen() for different arches < 1237832115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, IMO they should valgrind should do: if (fileexists("/etc/debian-release")) disable_glibc_suppressions(); < 1237832117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1237832129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then debian would surely get a superslow glibc < 1237832135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there are surely better ways to tell if you're on Debian or not! < 1237832147 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and why would you deliberately give debian a superslow glibc? < 1237832161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: eh, debian is alright; just a fuckup because they modified security software without carefully checking it (which _is_ stupid) < 1237832170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, Well since we discussed Debian, OpenSSL and valgrind... < 1237832216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"relying on the garbage collector is a crutch" /facepalm < 1237832227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, who wrote that? < 1237832232 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :random redditor < 1237832241 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a fairly wide-spread view < 1237832254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: yeah, like AnMaster here used to have ;) < 1237832284 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not saying people who think that aren't insane, but there's logic to their madness < 1237832298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er < 1237832300 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is? < 1237832300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, btw using unintialised memory for entropy isn't such a good idea, since kernel usually give blanked out pages to glibc, so the stuff you end up reading is likely your own previous stuff. < 1237832334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure about memory allocated with sbrk() but not blanking pages before giving them to user space sounds like a really bad idea for security < 1237832462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION works on Awful Project
< 1237832507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, about GC. GC makes sense for languages with typed data, GC for C programs is IMO not such a good idea. Well good idea maybe, but in practise it doesn't work well. < 1237832515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well,* < 1237832535 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a C deficiency < 1237832541 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, indeed. < 1237832561 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sea deficiency :( < 1237832572 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;__; < 1237832575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, that would be a boat or a whale? < 1237832597 0 :Asztal_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vitamin C deficiency? < 1237832602 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1237832649 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :According to http://wiki.debian.org/SSLkeys#TechnicalSummary it's not that they were using unitialized memory for randomness; it's just that they removed two MD_Update calls, of which one actually was responsible of adding /dev/random-based entropy in. < 1237832670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway... since C and C++ are quite popular languages even for stuff that don't need the low levelness or the speed. it isn't strange that GCs ended up with a bad reputation(sp?) < 1237832671 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1237832676 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: yes. I said that < 1237832695 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: There was too much babble for me to read through that closely. < 1237832697 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's strange that C is popular for anything but kernel development < 1237832706 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that's strange too but I won't be too heretical < 1237832711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well C++ is sadly more popular these days < 1237832721 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's strange that foo is popular for bar < 1237832726 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'This was done to try to make it easier to debug C applications that use the openssl libraries which is a good thing to do." < 1237832733 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is this the Simple English debian wiki? < 1237832751 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you're the only person on *the internet* who complains more than I do. < 1237832773 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Oh, no, I know one person who complains more. < 1237832780 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow. < 1237832783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: well, you don't complain much in here < 1237832786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: They are a huge pain to talk to. < 1237832791 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but presumably based on that you complain a lot elsewhere < 1237832802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: he complains loads in here < 1237832805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, on the other hand since OS is in C, basic libraries in C and graphical window drawing thingy is either built into kernel or a program coded in C (all of those can be justified to be in C, they need low level stuff and they need speed), it is easy to interface with stuff if you code in C < 1237832818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then other stuff can interface with the stuff you just wrote in C as easily < 1237832818 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: foo to unix I say. Foo! < 1237832824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that just growz < 1237832826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grows* < 1237832897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm what did that mean? < 1237832903 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i dislike unix :P < 1237832908 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://libexplain.sourceforge.net/ <-- This is nice. < 1237832978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1237833092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, Hm... Interesting < 1237833120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code ends up rather verbose though < 1237833129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: o rly? < 1237833137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fd = libexplain_open_or_die(path, flags, mode); < 1237833139 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :vs < 1237833141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fd = open(path, flags, mode); < 1237833143 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I mean, having to list the arguments again. < 1237833143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if (fd < 0) { < 1237833147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :print out sterror < 1237833147 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1237833150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: read < 1237833150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What if you don't have a local variable for it? < 1237833152 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The good new is that for each of these functions there is a wrapper function, in this case libexplain_open_or_die(3), that includes the above code fragment. Adding good error reporting is as simple as using a different, but similarly named, function. The library also provides thread safe variants of each explanation function. < 1237833158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1237833164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is a lot more useful < 1237833178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you want to make it a fatal error that is < 1237833192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is rather common) < 1237833231 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1237833533 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: the libexplain thing means that UNIX is the second environment, after C++, which now has a dedicated library/program to explain its error messages < 1237833542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1237833552 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus proving the awfulness of them both! < 1237833555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ahem. < 1237833563 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: they should make one of them for ed < 1237833565 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1237833566 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[ < 1237833567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either: < 1237833570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- You entered an invalid command < 1237833576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- You entered nonsensical parameters into a valid command < 1237833580 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(100 pages) < 1237833580 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]] < 1237833585 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: heh < 1237833634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I wonder why ed doesn't even have error codes or something < 1237833646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Disk space, UNIX philosophy. < 1237833652 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that Ken Thompson doesn't make errors, dammit. < 1237833653 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes it is that old indeed... < 1237833654 0 :tombom!i=tombom@wikipedia/Tombomp JOIN :#esoteric < 1237833673 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://philosecurity.org/2009/03/23/pirates-and-ninjas-emacs-or-vi < 1237833712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Woah. < 1237833715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bjarne Stroustrup edits with Sam < 1237833720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_(text_editor) < 1237833813 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once wrote a Win32 CD player program with a "netcat into it" UI (I don't really remember why the box in question ran Windows, though) which used one-character commands, and answered "?" to any erroneous input; and if you wrote "?" back, it printed out the "help", which was a string of all valid commands in lexical order; something like "[0-9]?eflprs". That one might've been a bit unpopular if I had distributed it to anyone. < 1237833820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what on earth has pirates and ninjas got to do with emacs or vi(m)? < 1237833832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They're both holy wars. < 1237833837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see... < 1237833967 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/Acme.png <- plan9 is awesome < 1237833970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not aware pirate vs. ninja is a holy war < 1237833975 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just because I've never met anyone on either side of it < 1237833982 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although many people are passionate about the issue < 1237833982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's more of an internet thing, I think < 1237833985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed it was news to me too < 1237833988 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know it's an internet thing < 1237833990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1237833996 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly, pirates and ninjas are mortal enemies < 1237834003 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you don't get people who are raving on the pirate side or the ninja side < 1237834006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you do < 1237834008 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most people think it's either a draw, or situational < 1237834011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the holy war I've seen takes the form of "which is more awesome?" < 1237834024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with subquestions "more likely to beat the other", etc. < 1237834027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I fail to see why they couldn't cooperate < 1237834033 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ninjas? cooperate? < 1237834035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o_o < 1237834040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, team work? < 1237834046 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ninjas. < 1237834063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, why not a team of 5 pirate ninjas? < 1237834072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop destroying space-time, AnMaster. < 1237834124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I mean it could work very well, attacking ships in a stealthy way instead of allowing the attackees to see the jolly roger flag from miles away < 1237834133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but, that's not the point. < 1237834141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As soon as you say "ninjas" and "cooperate" you're wrong. < 1237834154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I fail to see wy < 1237834156 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why* < 1237834161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is because you are blind. < 1237834171 0 :cherez!n=cherez@69.76.143.134 JOIN :#esoteric < 1237834178 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1237834193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no I'm not blind < 1237834213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are blind to the 74.32th dimension (where ninjas reside.) < 1237834226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, do you prefer pirates or ninjas? < 1237834233 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-5-21.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1237834254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: self-improving smarter-than-human AIs. They don't need to edit files; they just evolve new ones. < 1237834271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, what? < 1237834274 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meditate on it. < 1237834320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway I suggest pirate ninjas as a compromise. And there is viper mode for emacs, I suggest adding a emacs mode to vim as well. < 1237834332 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1) Impossible. 2) Space time. < 1237834352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which 2? < 1237834361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :``And there is viper mode for emacs, I suggest adding a emacs mode to vim as well.'' < 1237834366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes and? < 1237834371 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Space time. < 1237834390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, err is that the name of some program or what? < 1237834395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Space time. < 1237834397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean how is space time related to it < 1237834402 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Destruction thereof, AnMaster. < 1237834407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah... < 1237834418 0 :Mony!n=Harmony@AToulouse-258-1-14-206.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1237834437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, just add both vi and emacs modes to nano then, I guess it will have to be renamed to peta then < 1237834455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: emacs + anything = emacs. It's unavoidable. < 1237834471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :correct, emacs + vi = viper, but that's unmistakably emacs not vi < 1237834474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm... < 1237834491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I admit I never used viper mode, I just heard about it < 1237834502 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, various emacsen have subquantum fluctuations in their existence wave so that you can tell them apart < 1237834503 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they're still emacs < 1237834512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm bash has line editing you know? < 1237834520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know that line editing has two modes < 1237834522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Er. Yes. Yes I was aware. < 1237834527 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that is not emacs. < 1237834527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one emacs-style and one vim-style < 1237834530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1237834539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just a small subset of emacs editing keys. AnMaster: You know, OS X has Emacs editing keys in _every input field_. < 1237834544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I mean... it hasn't turned into emacs just because of it < 1237834548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ctrl-A, Ctrl-E, Option-Left&Right, ... < 1237834552 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They all work just like in emacs. < 1237834555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't make OS X emacs. < 1237834560 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's deeper than the key bindings. More disturbing. < 1237834563 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like Cthulhu. < 1237834576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes, though for Ctrl-A/E I actually edited my inputrc file so I use different keys in bash < 1237834620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and I made PgUp/PgDown useful too. I mean it is really useless to have them jump to beginning/end of history. Personally I prefer to make them search in history instead < 1237834642 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: They control my terminal scrollback for me :P < 1237834644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"\e[5~": history-search-backward < 1237834644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"\e[6~": history-search-forward < 1237834663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah konsole use shift-up/down for that < 1237834802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/86roz/pirates_and_ninjas_emacs_or_vi/c08en63 Er. < 1237834892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1237834910 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That does sound more "pirate" than "ninja", yes. < 1237834935 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What with all the monkey stuff and all. < 1237834937 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash hash alt-p for search in history, and control-r for isearch in history < 1237834938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pirates traditionally have beard too btw < 1237834939 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*has < 1237834965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION installs plan9port
< 1237834968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what sort of search? < 1237834972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not the same I think < 1237835001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fun fact: I used to swear by nano. :P < 1237835015 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=BeholdMy@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1237835027 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nano is about my borderline for usable enough < 1237835027 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for regular editing < 1237835030 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something less usable than nano is really annoying to use < 1237835041 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas nano is above my editor annoyance threshhold < 1237835042 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the pgup/down search is like: $ ./configu -> $ ./configure --prefix=blah --lots-of-args-you-entered-when-calling-last-time --which-was-200-lines-ago-or-so < 1237835044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nano is pretty much in the windows tradition < 1237835049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All the shortcuts are similar < 1237835051 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the config I mentioned above < 1237835054 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the text widget too < 1237835059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I find it extremely useful < 1237835073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's alt-p isn't it < 1237835083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: not quite < 1237835092 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alt-p you press before typing the substring not after < 1237835097 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it finds it in the middle of commands too < 1237835099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesnt it work with both < 1237835125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm PgDown searches like that but down from the current position, so if there are several matches and you press PgUp once too many times you can use use PgDown to go down to the previous match < 1237835140 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I believe that's also bound < 1237835145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, ctrl-r is better than what you said < 1237835146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can do < 1237835148 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server" < 1237835152 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^R ./configu < 1237835155 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's more powerful < 1237835163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fish, what you said is < 1237835164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./configu < 1237835205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1237835209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no it wasn't better... ctrl-r found lines with configure in the middle, like: rm configure; ./autogen.sh < 1237835210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how big are SSE values? < 1237835213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 x word? < 1237835228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, SSE registers are 128 bits wide < 1237835243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: is there an SSE stack? < 1237835252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no they aren't stacked like x87 < 1237835257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean < 1237835260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a stack < 1237835261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in a stack < 1237835265 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that contains sse values < 1237835272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... interesting < 1237835276 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bash seems not to have a regex history search < 1237835304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, unlike most x86 instructions the majority of the SSE instructions cause segfault if you try to operate on memory not aligned on 16-byte boundaries. < 1237835320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can put any values on your C stack < 1237835325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SSE variables too < 1237835328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that is what you mean < 1237835333 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hmm < 1237835339 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then you could use SSE vars to have efficient tagged pointers < 1237835345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I mean, you can have arrays and what not on your stack < 1237835346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1237835347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1237835348 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, bash has an undo? < 1237835352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, undo how? < 1237835353 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think I've ever needed to use that < 1237835353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what do you mean what < 1237835361 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the same as in any other editor < 1237835367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :undoes editing commands in the line you're typing < 1237835375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how would SSE help with tagged memory? < 1237835384 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They really ought to cause SIGBUS, that sounds like it'd be more traditional for unaligned access. < 1237835390 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: they efficiently store values larger than a machine word < 1237835399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can pass them around as efficiently as a machine word < 1237835472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, SSE is usually slower to set up iirc. they are vector instructions, so to be of use you really need to operate on streams. IIRC they have higher initial latency on some CPUs (though I may misremember that) < 1237835482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it wasn't that... < 1237835502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION tries to remember why SSE was slower when you weren't doing lots of operations..
< 1237835512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone else know? < 1237835585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway there are many things you can't do with SSE. Like most control flow (in more recent SSE versions there is some basic control flow support, and there is cmov style things too) < 1237835651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, however I think a good baseline for general use today would be SSE2 at most. I have one computer with just SSE and one with SSE2 and SSE3 too < 1237835655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nothing newer than that < 1237835664 0 :Blipi!n=Blipi@90-225-109-5-no20.tbcn.telia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1237835720 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1237835735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1237835739 0 :tombom_!i=tombom@82.26.200.9 JOIN :#esoteric < 1237835775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g'day AnMaster < 1237835822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Huh, PGP's source is publicly available. (Not FOSS, though.) < 1237835850 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think that's sort of a prerequisite for encryption to be trusted these days, isn't it? < 1237835856 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd be surprised. < 1237835888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you shouldn't be surprised at that < 1237835900 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PGP's source was released publically by the author, because he wanted it to escape into the wild before he could be sued into oblivion < 1237835921 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would imagine most people think closed = more secure < 1237835921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no you misunderstand < 1237835926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it became closed source in the 90s < 1237835932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at the protests of the pgp team < 1237835940 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the new owner (PGP Corporation) has released the source now, it seems < 1237835944 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, interesting < 1237835948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, err? why? < 1237835950 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not allowed to modify it other than to get it build, thouh < 1237835950 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gh < 1237835953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a shame < 1237835960 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably its legal status was clarified eventually, then < 1237835961 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: people can't see it and understand it and break it, DUH < 1237835967 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, this is what people believe < 1237835970 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ages ago, yes < 1237835975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's been legal since the early 90s < 1237835978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1237835980 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it never was illegal < 1237835985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, I'm out of touch with the whole PGP story < 1237835988 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :verily :D < 1237835995 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: by analogy with the Real World < 1237835998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, security by obscurity? Would anyone seriously think that works? < 1237836005 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because it works in the real world < 1237836007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No shit, of course they do < 1237836008 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just remember the "printed as book" part of the PGP story; that was the awesome. < 1237836012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i know! < 1237836016 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and people are insufficiently familiar with how the real world is different from software < 1237836033 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :security by obscurity doesn't work in the real world < 1237836037 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, security through obscurity does work, quite well, even in practice < 1237836038 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it works well enough in most cases < 1237836040 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not perfectly < 1237836049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody cares about perfect < 1237836062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Security by obscurity tends to work, it's just immoral and stupid. < 1237836062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except people who have felt the problems imperfection causes < 1237836066 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have worked on currency exchange software < 1237836069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, Um, how do you mean in the real world? A software is more like a building material with blue print included than any specific instance of a house < 1237836071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1237836075 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the system in production had critical security bugs for years < 1237836083 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that i discovered and reported < 1237836093 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nobody actually discovered them "in the wild" < 1237836095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a closed source software would be like one of those prefab houses < 1237836098 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though they could make a ton of money < 1237836102 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(spelling?) < 1237836110 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's an awful analogy < 1237836113 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, really terrible < 1237836118 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely detached from meaning < 1237836119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes it wasn't very good < 1237836121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought you'd like to know < 1237836136 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: YOU know what "software is like" < 1237836141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#!/bin/sh < 1237836141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo read the README file. < 1237836142 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: most people have no idea ta all < 1237836144 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :—plan9/configure < 1237836156 0 :tombom_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Peace and Protection 4.22.2" < 1237836361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, the issue here is you (or someone else) is confusing types of objects and instances of those types. When you consider that it applies the same in computing... A specific computer with an installed (multi-user) OS and set up: obscure password, obscure ports for remote access (NEVER put ssh on port 22, using some random high port means a lot less random "scan and brute force" attacks, of course < 1237836361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you still need other forms or protection) < 1237836377 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no idea what you just said. < 1237836378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but ssh itself, like the lock itself, is available to anyone. < 1237836393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, hm ok. Forget it then < 1237836447 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you significantly overestimate most people's knowledge of computing. < 1237836500 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :besides, real-world locks do make use of security through obscurity. < 1237836509 0 :Blipi!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/" < 1237836516 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :namely, if you could see the lock mechanism it would be very easy to break it. < 1237836594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mean = fuse (/) (\e s -> s+e) 0 (\_ l -> l+1) 0 < 1237836597 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where < 1237836598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuse :: (a -> b -> c) -> (d -> a -> a) -> a -> (d -> a -> b) -> b -> [d] -> c < 1237836599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fuse c f x g y = uncurry c . foldr (\e (a,b) -> (f e a,g e a)) (x,y) < 1237836610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if fuse is the most crazily ugly function you've ever seen, you're right! < 1237836625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, if I want to reverse engineer a normal mechanical tool (no built in chipsets or such, or we are into the software bit) or such, I don't need the blue print usually, I can just get my torx/whatever screwdriver and open it, then move the parts and watch how it works. For example a simple pad-lock, it is rather interesting to open one and see how it actually works. I would say in the software ana < 1237836625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logy this would mean the source is available but not that easy to find (I have seen a few such projects, open source ones but where you had so search for a while to actually find anything but binary downloads) < 1237836659 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: incorrect < 1237836670 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :knowing how the lock mechanism works doesn't help you break it < 1237836681 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the password is encoded in hardware, yes, but you don't know the password < 1237836692 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual design of the lock isn't too hard to work out, you just don't know exactly how long the levers are < 1237836699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, but any specific instance of a lock or a software running, would have different arrangements of the small metal bits that they key move, and the software would have different passwords for different users < 1237836703 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's actually what i meant by "knowing the mechanism" < 1237836708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah what ais523 said < 1237836728 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why are you trying to convince *ME* < 1237836735 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i KNOW how locks and ssh work. < 1237836740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament is right, you know < 1237836741 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm saying that MOST PEOPLE don't < 1237836762 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have no idea about either metal bits or asymmetric keys. < 1237836783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, I would be surprised if most people had no clue how locks work. I mean most don't know all the details, but they know the general principle surely? < 1237836798 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like that the jagged edges move small metal bits < 1237836811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that they align so that you can turn it around < 1237836812 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's just one kind of lock, by the way - pretty much the most simple one < 1237836820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, yes I know there are other ones < 1237836862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Main> mean [] < 1237836862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NaN < 1237836862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1237836874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, some move the metal bits to certain positions when you turn the key iirc. (probably padlocks mostly?) < 1237836929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, anyway the general idea is to make the key move something to certain position depending on the shape of the key, and only one such combination of the moving of parts opens the lock < 1237836934 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All most people know about locks is that there's something inside them, and the main reason you can't just make a key for a lock is because you cannot see what that something is. < 1237836941 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Security through obscurity. < 1237836973 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: that's like calling keeping passwords secret security through obscurity < 1237836983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed < 1237836984 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is to have the smallest possible amount of information obscure < 1237836989 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6_9 < 1237836992 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a high information density there < 1237837005 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typical security through obscurity can often be reverse-engineered < 1237837006 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't convince me. Convince people who use closed-source cryptography software. < 1237837122 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : pirates traditionally have beard too btw < 1237837138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes and? < 1237837142 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION suddenly thinks of muslim ninjas
< 1237837208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well if there are any European ninjas that would certainly be possible. The concept originated in the eastern parts of Asia though < 1237837239 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm i guess that would be Hashshashins < 1237837265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, err? I assume there is a pun there, but I have no idea whatsoever what "Hashshashins" is supposed to be < 1237837271 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assassins < 1237837273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1237837274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ^ < 1237837280 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no pun < 1237837282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :odd tab < 1237837283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1237837285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1237837347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Assassins are certainly similar enough. < 1237837376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same basic idea, different cultures. < 1237837441 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1237837472 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=BeholdMy@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1237837474 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :World-famous Hashshashins, such as the 256th Sha, and Mr. Ripe, M.D. < 1237837483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fish: Failed to execute process '/usr/bin/grep'. Reason: < 1237837483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fish: The total size of the argument and environment lists (7.4MB) exceeds the < 1237837483 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :system limit of 256kB. < 1237837486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fish: Please try running the command again with fewer arguments. < 1237837486 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while pirates are not really based on the same idea at all... < 1237837491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy#In_East_Asia < 1237837543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes what about that? < 1237837551 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 7.4 megabytes. < 1237837556 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: how did you manage to give a 7.4MB argument list to grep anyway < 1237837558 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a loong argument list. < 1237837564 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: 'grep /opt/local /opt/local/**' < 1237837578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yes and? If you can have a 7.4 MB stack then you can have such a large command line on recent linux. < 1237837582 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: grep -R /opt/local /opt/local < 1237837595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes -r is useful < 1237837596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, well, I used find instead. < 1237837598 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And it phailed. < 1237837602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't find what I wanted. < 1237837604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Har umph. < 1237837604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is -R and -r the same or? < 1237837609 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes in the case of grep < 1237837611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does anyone know where $PATH is set globally? < 1237837615 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-R works on more standard UNIX commands than -r, though < 1237837620 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thang isn't in /etc/paths < 1237837629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1237837752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm... whatever init file bash reads. Which is something like /etc/profile, /etc/bash/bashrc /etc/bashrc /etc/bash.profile or whatever. Varies a bit with distros. If bash specific ones are used they usually source the global /etc/profile or such < 1237837761 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not bash. < 1237837772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It works in all shells, even fish, which can't parse POSIX-shell initialization file. < 1237837773 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s < 1237837785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it must inherit it from login(1) or something; which gets it from ... where? < 1237837793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, then I guess it inherits the environment from the starting process < 1237837800 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :login(1). < 1237837804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which gets it where? < 1237837811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, on OS X maybe it is in that netinfo thingy? < 1237837816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it < 1237837835 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: < 1237837839 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NetInfo is the system configuration database in NEXTSTEP and Mac OS X versions up through Mac OS X v10.4 "Tiger". < 1237837841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't exist in leopard. < 1237837856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I think I remember seeing something about path when trying to debug a problem with a user which was set up to sync files remotely to work. < 1237837864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1237837869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it was on tiger < 1237837900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a unix thing anyway < 1237837907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Where does login(1) get its env? < 1237837915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, even windows have environment variables though < 1237837938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Your user and group ID will be set according to their values in the /etc/passwd file. The value for $HOME, $SHELL, $PATH, $LOGNAME, and $MAIL are set according to < 1237837938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : the appropriate fields in the password entry. Ulimit, umask and nice values may also be set according to entries in the GECOS field. < 1237837941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from man login here < 1237837957 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I wouldn't be surprised if it was implementation defined < 1237837967 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inherits from init, presumably < 1237837972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No init on os x < 1237837973 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/etc/login.defs < 1237837978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All I know is that /opt/local/bin is in my path in fish and yet fish can't read initialization files < 1237837978 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, from /etc/passwd? that's interesting < 1237837979 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ENV_PATH PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/games < 1237837980 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it must be SOMEWHERE < 1237837982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want to know where < 1237837983 0 :Mony!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quit" < 1237837988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I didn't know about PATH there either < 1237837992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: doesn't exist. < 1237837998 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know anything about OS X login(1), though. < 1237838002 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: there has to be some first process, just because it isn't called init on OSX doesn't prevent it being an init process < 1237838006 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's regular bsd login, fizzie < 1237838010 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's irrelevant < 1237838019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my login.defs has ENV_PATH PATH=/bin:/usr/bin indeed < 1237838020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/opt/local/bin entered my path after installing macpotrs < 1237838022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no reboot or anything < 1237838028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it has to be in some initialization file < 1237838034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just want to know where so Ic an add my own entry < 1237838067 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I don't know anything about BSD login(1) either; the login from Linux shadow-passwords package gets the PATH it sets from /etc/login.defs. < 1237838123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ENVIRONMENT < 1237838124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Init sets the following environment variables for all its children: < 1237838124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : PATH /bin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin < 1237838126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is on Linux < 1237838133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there are some more variables listed there < 1237838142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like CONSOLE, RUNLEVEL and a few others < 1237838156 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On Linux, the PAM stuff also mangles with the environment; there's in my pam.d a 'login' file doing "session required pam_env.so readenv=1 envfile=/etc/default/locale" and one without envfile which reads /etc/environment in. < 1237838164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes pam indeed... < 1237838166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :forgot about that < 1237838196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, iirc using pam means most of the stuff in login.defs isn't used in fact < 1237838202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gr, at this rate i'll just read the macports source < 1237838219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway I think the bottom line is that it is mostly implementation defined < 1237838229 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I remember freebsd has some /etc/login.conf or something < 1237838233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and i'm specifically interested in *this implementation* < 1237838257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(/u/l/plan9) grep -R /opt/local /etc < 1237838261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just returns /etc/shells < 1237838269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :containing two entries [zsh and fish] < 1237838281 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't suppose you have a /etc/path.d/ either? Someone says Leopard does that. < 1237838282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, freebsd has it in /etc/login.conf < 1237838287 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : :path=/sbin /bin /usr/sbin /usr/bin /usr/games /usr/local/sbin /usr/local/bin /usr/X11R6/bin ~/bin:\ < 1237838292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, that's freebsd. < 1237838294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from that file on a freebsd system < 1237838299 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: nope. < 1237838302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well since OS X is BSDish? < 1237838307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought it would be useful < 1237838312 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Did you miss the part where I grepped all of /etc? < 1237838317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah ok < 1237838317 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: (/u/l/plan9) grep -R /opt/local /etc < 1237838317 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:57 ehird: just returns /etc/shells < 1237838319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:57 < 1237838336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, btw login.conf has this comment in it: < 1237838337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# Remember to rebuild the database after each change to this file: < 1237838338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# < 1237838338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# cap_mkdb /etc/login.conf < 1237838342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why a DB I wonder... < 1237838347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Maybe they have encrypted it by xorring it with 0x42, and decrypt on run-time. So you can't find it with grep. Security! < 1237838358 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: :o < 1237838362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why 0x42? < 1237838367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: answer to life, the un < 1237838370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh fuck it. < 1237838373 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not worth the bother. < 1237838373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no it isn't < 1237838386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that would be in base 10 < 1237838391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1237838395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ echo $(( 0x42 )) < 1237838395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :66 < 1237838398 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I just thought it'd be something else than 42. memfrob() does 42_10, though. < 1237838398 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are mistaking pedanticism for humour. < 1237838404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's irritating. stop it. < 1237838425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what.... memfrob() actually exists? < 1237838427 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) grep -R /opt/local / # doo doo doo < 1237838428 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1237838430 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ... yes ... < 1237838432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SYNOPSIS < 1237838432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : #define _GNU_SOURCE < 1237838432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : #include < 1237838432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : void *memfrob(void *s, size_t n); < 1237838434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why on earth... < 1237838435 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: On glibc, yes. < 1237838439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you actually use c ? < 1237838441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is completely useless < 1237838441 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's used to hide string constants in executables < 1237838462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err, not a very good protection < 1237838473 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hey, they've got strfry(3) too. < 1237838473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sort of joke I assume? < 1237838496 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like that one is very useful in most cases either. < 1237838497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not really, it's not for security < 1237838502 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just to prevent people casually reading the binaries < 1237838525 0 :FireyFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1237838535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, at least that is slightly less useless. Randomising order of a string can actually be useful sometimes (shuffling an array of non-zero bytes representing a card deck?) < 1237838581 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1237838651 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, 42 is 0b101010, if you're working with 6-pixels-wide monochrome images with a single scanline per byte (like might be in a custom bitmap font or something) you can conveniently use memfrob() to toggle every second pixel, to, well, get an effect of sorts. < 1237838664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sure but why? It would be trivial to extract the strings. nm -D ./binary | grep memfrob, if found do something like write a tool that runs xor on a stream and then pipe the output into strings < 1237838677 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not "casual", really. < 1237838721 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"bye" < 1237838737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well I guess that depends on your definition. I assume that somewhere exists a generic "run xor on a file/stream/whatever" type tool, I just have no idea what the name would be. I tried xor without any success. < 1237838755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean there are things for sorting, unique lines, and what not < 1237838780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't really be that sure. < 1237838819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it probably isn't POSIX indeed. But anyway it would be rather trivial to write one that memfrobs a file and outputs the result to stdout. < 1237838890 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=BeholdMy@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1237838928 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, it's perl -ne 'print join("", map { chr(ord ^ 42) } split //);' as a perl-oneliner, but that's still not casual browsing. < 1237838932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make it more useful you could have it do and, or and such as well, and take different length of constant to repeat, like multi-byte ones. Or even allow operating on two streams < 1237838978 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1237838983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, casual browsing of a binary for me would mean strings, readelf, objdump, ldd, nm and a few other tools < 1237839009 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now see the CLCLC-INTERCAL page! It now does a lot of new stuff with backtracking and namespaces and various other things. < 1237839015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, link? < 1237839021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bOFFE < 1237839022 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :]EXFN < 1237839025 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The page on the wiki. < 1237839033 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In other words: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CLCLC-INTERCAL < 1237839053 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm... looks like normal output of strings < 1237839059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bOS < 1237839059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :REX < 1237839061 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YZOKA < 1237839063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CY < 1237839065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :KI^_KFFS < 1237839067 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ZXO^^S < 1237839069 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MEEN < 1237839084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you are not interesting enough to try to decrypt < 1237839085 0 :ais523_!n=ais523@147.188.254.128 JOIN :#esoteric < 1237839106 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I added SWAP to the list of quantumable commands < 1237839107 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, 42 seems to be rather nice number wrt. generating printable output from printable input; obviously since it's that 0b101010. < 1237839120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, also I would usually not run strings or anything on a binary I'm not interested in. I guess I simply don't have a "casual" level of checking such things < 1237839125 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In retrospect perl -ne 'print pack("C*", map { $_^42 } unpack("C*", $_));' might've been more perly. < 1237839142 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1237839145 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1237839160 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I don't really associate the word "causal" with you anyway. < 1237839177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, huh is that a good or bad thing? < 1237839187 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure. < 1237839195 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster is srs bssnz < 1237839206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, are you saying I'm more of a "all or nothing" person or something? < 1237839231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well I guess I'm unusually normal for being in this channel :/ < 1237839263 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, some people might run 'strings' on a random binary, and if not finding anything interesting, not continue with a deeper analysis. I'm sure I've done that with some sort of firmware imagey or whatever, for which it is not immediately obvious how it splits into component pieces. < 1237839271 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you think the namespaces specification is good? And what about the backtracking specification? < 1237839280 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :namespaces? For INTERCAL?! < 1237839290 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly those tend to be compressed anyway. < 1237839305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well I would start with "file", always. < 1237839310 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: \5a}|{~5K5%w%$%$%$5egzq`vpf5xzgp5eyptf|{r5gpf`yaf; < 1237839313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well,* < 1237839332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, base64 or something like that? < 1237839335 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes namespaces in INTERCAL. But you have to use numbers for the namespaces, like everything else in INTERCAL. If you want to use actual words, you can of course define syntax for those words to mean those numbers. < 1237839338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: most of the namespacing suggestions for INTERCAL have involved mingles < 1237839344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm no < 1237839389 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, is there an implementation or is it just a draft? < 1237839393 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wanted CLCLC-INTERCAL to be insane and useful, rather than insane and useless like every other INTERCAL that exists. < 1237839402 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is just a draft so far. < 1237839409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1237839411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, INTERCAL is useful! < 1237839414 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's even INTERNET < 1237839422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, CLC I assume? < 1237839425 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1237839432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it do? < 1237839438 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :networking < 1237839445 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it stands for INTERcal NETworking < 1237839447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc < 1237839450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what... that is too straightforward to be interesting < 1237839451 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's based on data theft. < 1237839458 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's the clashing < 1237839460 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CLC has INTERNET (INTERCAL networking). CLCLC does something similar too, but mostly for parallel computing across the network < 1237839463 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the existing related but not the same term < 1237839514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, hm what about somehow adding a twisted version of vector processing (think SSE, Altivec and such) but that does something totally different < 1237839525 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: INTERNET is not at all straightforward < 1237839526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something related but silly < 1237839534 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For example, CLC-INTERCAL has a CASE command. But CLCLC-INTERCAL doesn't have a CASE command, you have to use the FIND command instead. < 1237839536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is related to networking, that is too close < 1237839542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too close to what? < 1237839544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think you don't "get" intercal naming. < 1237839563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: INTERNET != the Internet < 1237839568 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, it mostly works over LANs < 1237839570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed! < 1237839571 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Describe twisted version of vector processing or provide a link. Maybe I will think about it < 1237839575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm aware of this < 1237839578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to jump through various hoops to get it to work over the internet at large < 1237839583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, it is still related to networking < 1237839591 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION facepalm
< 1237839613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I don't know really < 1237839621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was just a fragment of an idea < 1237839631 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL networking is not very useful over the internet. It is more useful for parallel computing in different rooms on different terminals where different result will be put, possibly with different data entry on each one. < 1237839640 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: very plan9 < 1237839642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the lectures in CLC... < 1237839657 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about the lectures in CLC? < 1237839657 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that is a good case of twisting object orientation IMO < 1237839689 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree that is a good case of twisting object orientation. Now, CLCLC has nearly identical lecture system < 1237839697 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If file prints "data" (like xor-"encrypting" a whole file might easily make it do), and strings does not reveal anything intelligent, and you're not seriously interested in the file anyway (for example, it's a firmware upgrade to a device you don't self have), I find it very believable to just forget about it right there and then; in which case the memfrob has really served its purpose, and kept a causal interested person away. (Please don't start w < 1237839697 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ith a debate whether it makes sense to discourage curiosity like that, it's not really relevant.) < 1237839698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice < 1237839702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer Objectivist systems. < 1237839707 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is one reason I kept it but there are other reasons as well to keep certain things and discard others. < 1237839731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why would I even download a firmware upgrade for a device I don't own? < 1237839767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm... < 1237839771 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have downloaded firmware upgrades for devices I don't own! Guess why if you want to. Or I will tell you if you ask < 1237839771 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Because someone was talking about it, and you got curious? That's what happened to me, once. < 1237839777 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: < 1237839790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I see... < 1237839819 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I downloaded firmware upgrades for Texas Instruments graphing calculators so that I may run software for those calculators on an emulator on my computer. (Texas Instruments provides downloads, so you may look there) < 1237839828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1237839851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, what model? I believe I have TI-83+ firmware file around somewhere (since I do own such a calculator= < 1237839854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/=/)/ < 1237839881 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Various models, depending on what model the software that I want to run is written for. < 1237839887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it was years ago I last looked for an upgrade for it < 1237839911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about screen says version 1.19 < 1237839944 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The only TI calculator I actually own is the TI-92 calculator. And a lot of software is not written for the TI-92 so I get the firmware from Texas Instruments and run it in a emulator < 1237840074 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The batteries of my TI-86 had given out, couldn't check what the self-test screen says about version. < 1237840117 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should add a command in CLCLC-INTERCAL for taking a array full of EBCDIC characters, and appending that to the end of the program source-code and then recompiling. < 1237840124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah, the batteries in my TI-83+ seems to last forever... < 1237840166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 years since I replaced them last time, and I used it a lot since then < 1237840170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still nowhere near empty < 1237840185 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-5-21.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1237840188 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I don't like that the CREATE command in CLC-INTERCAL uses ASCII numbers, so in CLCLC-INTERCAL it uses EBCDIC numbers instead (even if the source-code is in ASCII). < 1237840192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :four of those AAA batteries < 1237840199 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't used that calculator since that DSP course (I'm not sure if you were here for the story?) and I think the batteries were el-cheapo rechargeables, the magic tends to leak out even when not used. < 1237840216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, doesn't sound familiar no < 1237840249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these are non-rechargeable ones from IKEA btw < 1237840262 0 :cherez!n=cherez@69.76.143.134 JOIN :#esoteric < 1237840264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alkaline < 1237840268 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1237840311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what on earth is "flash upgradeable ROM"...? < 1237840327 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The story was pretty long, but if you're feeling bored, it's at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.03.06 starting from 05:38:03 (about the ti86.png picture). < 1237840345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't ROM if it is flashable. Then it is flash memory < 1237840359 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: what's 0x1f XOR 42 decimal? < 1237840363 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well it is flash-ROM I guess, because flash-ROM can be erased and reprogrammed (I think) < 1237840370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: 123456789 < 1237840378 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But srsly, 53 < 1237840378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I don't think so, that's rather high < 1237840385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, seems a bit odd to call something rewritable "ROM" < 1237840389 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, Flash can be considered a subtype of EEPROM, and that's a subtype of ROM. < 1237840405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well ok, true < 1237840432 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, ROM means read-only memory but it is read-only during run-time, it is only that it is re-flashable at certain times, so it is mostly ROM (but not completely) < 1237840446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay, I have plan9 userspace < 1237840485 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Post suggestions on [[Talk:CLCLC-INTERCAL]] if you have any interesting ones < 1237840492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, flash memory in TI-83+ (which this was about) can be written to at runtime, you just press "move from ram to flash" in some menu under the mem meny < 1237840492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :menu* < 1237840562 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wha < 1237840562 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa < 1237840570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'tar xf' figures out gzip or bzip < 1237840588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :05:40:23 i have a hard time not asking personal questions from each and everyone here all the time, and you think i don't want to hear a spänking story <-- spänking? < 1237840601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XDD < 1237840604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, is that some fi word? < 1237840610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION rofl
< 1237840614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what? < 1237840702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see it is explained below < 1237840731 0 :cherez!n=cherez@69.76.143.134 JOIN :#esoteric < 1237840744 0 :cherez!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1237840920 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are two new registers the CHOICE register and the () register < 1237840967 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I should add a FUNCTION register, together with DEFINE command and various other things, for doing functional programming < 1237841004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ineiros (found in that log) never talks otherwise it seems? < 1237841046 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should also have a LIFE register, so you don't disgust half the users by being PRO-CHOICE < 1237841076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :groan < 1237841097 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ineiros is friend-of the- fizzie I think < 1237841129 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, how exactly should the LIFE register work? < 1237841148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the opposite of CHOICE. < 1237841171 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what exactly would the opposite of the CLCLC-INTERCAL CHOICE register be anyways? < 1237841194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's LIFE < 1237841211 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The CHOICE register has something to do with backtracking, so the opposite, which is LIFE, does it have something to do with fronttracking maybe? < 1237841243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes! < 1237841244 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :front tracking < 1237841276 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, and how should front tracking work? < 1237841341 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would contain the coordinates of the front of the attached turtle robot? < 1237841346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not a very good idea < 1237841351 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1237841377 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well why not, there's always a need for a graphics system < 1237841398 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it won't be the attached turtle robot, that is not a very good idea, just like you say. < 1237841401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how many do you know who owns such a turtle robot? < 1237841418 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :approximately zero < 1237841425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same here < 1237841429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway you could have a virtual one < 1237841434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like TURT in befunge < 1237841436 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course there is a need for a graphics system but that could be a namespace such as DO NAMESPACE #123 AS ,GRAPHICS, < 1237841442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would be way too straight forward < 1237841476 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the front is clearly the screen, i think i see the beginning of a GUI replacement here... < 1237841496 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have it interface with an ai turtle. with mood swings < 1237841513 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, front-tracking should be something like the opposite of back-tracking, not something having to do with screen and such things as that < 1237841544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm snowstorm now < 1237841546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unusual < 1237841553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this time of the year I mean) < 1237841562 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you are letting reason get in the way of a good pun. i am insulted. D; < 1237841568 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I and ineiros attend the same university. Although he said something else in 2008-12, at least. < 1237841594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1237841623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :06:28:47 How can you make even an oscilloscope sound dirty? < 1237841625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahah < 1237841632 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i'm sure it's because i declared spring to have come the other day. next day it started snowing, stupid me. < 1237841645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, over in Norway too? < 1237841646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1237841692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well obviously some places in norway would have snow at this time, it _is_ a mountainous country stretching to the arctic after all. < 1237841714 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but trondheim is fairly coastal. < 1237841716 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also in Finland, except it started snowing today just a little bit, and the forecast is predicting more snow tomorrow. After a week of mostly non-sub-zero temperatures and very pre-Spring-like weather. < 1237841815 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finnish Meteorological Institute forecast says that it'll be -15°C here during Wed/Thu night. That's not really usual, it's almost April and everything. < 1237841867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh... currently there is (melting) snow on the upper part of the window in this room. It is under a balcony. Conclusion: snow nowdays fall horizontally... < 1237841882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so much I can't even see out clearly < 1237841938 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION checks his window
< 1237841982 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to be filled with some black stuff. tends to happen at night time here. < 1237841992 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except in the summer. < 1237842100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, very funny... < 1237842109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, there are streetlights outside here however < 1237842164 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure, but do you think the last example on the wiki CLCLC-INTERCAL is sensible or does anything even a little bit useful? It doesn't matter because it is just a example but I want opinion anyways < 1237842208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well there are some lights but not enough to make out whether there is snow in the window < 1237842212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, ask ais523 I guess. < 1237842224 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm busy in RL < 1237842235 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not really up to trying to understand yet another dialect of INTERCAL < 1237842245 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially one without an implementation so I can't look at the source code to figure out corner cases < 1237842249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I have a lamp in the window. Very common you know < 1237842256 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then ask a person who likes to be insane < 1237842259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hanging down from above < 1237842270 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how quaint < 1237842285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what? Is it unusual over where you live or something? < 1237842289 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok there seems to be no snow in the window, although there is on the ground < 1237842306 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the codes I wrote is really mostly WHILE from CLC-INTERCAL and backtracking from the backtracking INTERCAL, it doesn't do much else < 1237842320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, there is on ground too here < 1237842334 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a conspiracy i tell you < 1237842354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :backtracking from the backtracking <-- sounds like fronttracking, but while looking in the other direction < 1237842387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, there you have it. front tracking is backtracking from backtracking but looking in the direction of travel! < 1237842391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :issue solved < 1237842404 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant backtracking is from the [[Backtracking INTERCAL]] specification, mostly anyways (but CLCLC-INTERCAL also has two new registers for dealing with backtracking, CHOICE and () registers) < 1237842423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, duh... My interpretation was way more interesting! < 1237842446 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, thanks, but I'm still not sure what it means to backtrack backtracking while looking in the direction of travel, if I think about it a bit more maybe I will understand < 1237842465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, I'm not sure what it would mean in the context of programming either < 1237842475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or any other context < 1237842511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, but don't you think backtracking from backtracking would sufficiently twisted to fit into intercal perfectly? < 1237842516 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're right. < 1237842525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: well, let's define backtracking < 1237842539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Backtracking: Going back to a previous point in the program state and continuing from there. < 1237842540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, in the common prolog style sense or some other sense? < 1237842547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Front tracking: Going forwards to a future point in the program state and continuing from there. < 1237842552 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So front tracking... is time travel. < 1237842553 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, backtracking from backtracking would sufficiently be twisted to fit into INTERCAL. But first we have to think of what exactly it means and how it works and stuff like that. < 1237842557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To actually implement it, zzo38, < 1237842563 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You just wait until the future state arrives < 1237842568 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, rewind to where you set up the front tracking < 1237842575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then, jump to the future state direct from there < 1237842575 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's simple enough < 1237842575 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and continue < 1237842576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah nice idea < 1237842580 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, to backtrack backtracking < 1237842586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I think my idea is better < 1237842588 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :backtracking follows a distinct path through the program < 1237842589 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it really is the opposite of backtracking < 1237842592 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you rewind it, that's metabacktracking < 1237842593 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's also time travel, which is awesome < 1237842601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm not sure how useful it is < 1237842603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I feel like it could be < 1237842608 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't your definition of fronttracking a no-op/ < 1237842617 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, interesting idea. And the LIFE register will have something to do with it too. Possibly with commands like GO FORWARD and stuff like that. < 1237842623 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: nope < 1237842639 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it is if you view backtracking as just "jumping to a previous point" < 1237842640 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's more than that < 1237842655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you read it a few times I think it becomes clearer, although god knows it's an insane idea even then < 1237842668 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: backtracking's "reverting to a previous state" < 1237842680 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reverting to a future state does the same thing as just running to that point < 1237842690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, the only point in backtracking is that you get information from the future, so to speak < 1237842691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about a train analogy ehird? Backtracking would be backing up from a dead end to last switch to select another path (and continue to switch before is you tried all paths and so on), Backtracking from backtracking would be backing the other way that you backtracked from, somewhat like continuations to a previous backtracking state maybe. < 1237842693 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :telling you not to go that way < 1237842698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if we describe backtracking's use as "the assumptions are incorrect!", then fronttracking's use is "make the assumptions correct" < 1237842703 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which fits in with what i asid < 1237842712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, but what is fronttracking? < 1237842713 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course it will be different than a no-op if you use the CHOICE register, LIFE register, and quantum computing, then it probably will not be a no-op. < 1237842741 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and even something for making the assumptions correct. < 1237842746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not sure how direction of going (reversing or going forward) would translate to programming... < 1237842760 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mixing multiple front tracks and back tracks would be fun < 1237842763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, front tracking would be turning around the train and going forward to do it < 1237842783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, the INTERCAL form of "Make the assumptions are correct. If the assumptions are correct: they are incorrect! Otherwise, they are correct." < 1237842786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :**FREEZE** < 1237842837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1237842839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1237842846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about a train based esolang < 1237842857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like you program by drawing a track layout and switches and so on < 1237842861 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it will be touring complete < 1237842862 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i saw a path-style one which described itself like that < 1237842864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and setting trains and stops and such < 1237842866 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't remember the name < 1237842867 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hahaha < 1237842868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, AUGH! < 1237842889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: have multiple types of train and name the control structure ones touring machines < 1237842893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it should be combined with something like OpenTTD or whatever for the best effect < 1237842900 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://esolangs.org/wiki/Rail < 1237842927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway I have no idea how you would program in such a language < 1237842935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, how to calculate anything < 1237842951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION reads the link
< 1237842985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Third, Rail is in many respects a functional language. It provides LISP-style lists, garbage collection, and immutable values" err...? < 1237842989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION read on
< 1237842992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reads* < 1237843095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting but different from what I had in mind. My idea was something like OpenTTD or Simutrans turned into a programming language... < 1237843123 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i just remembered it as describing itself similarly, it's not too similar in execution < 1237843129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1237843156 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume I've mentioned the OpenTTD logic gate thing? < 1237843161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zem.fi/ttd_logic/ < 1237843161 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn < 1237843163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie < 1237843164 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ya beat me < 1237843170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you had a link. < 1237843179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, doesn't openttd need some sort of data files from a closed game? < 1237843186 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION uses simutrans
< 1237843191 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1237843201 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think they were very slowly working on replacements last time i checked < 1237843206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :'a closed game'; dude, transport tycoon is awesome < 1237843208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dont' be so harsh :( < 1237843218 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I've been told it can nowadays run completely with their replacement "newgrf" files, with some manual hackery and some tiny bugs. < 1237843220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, are you using path based signaling? < 1237843241 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc openttd didn't have that until recently < 1237843253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while simutrans have it as the only mode since ages < 1237843275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it may be awesome, but I don't have it, thus I can't use it < 1237843289 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used the "new pathfinding", which was in openttd SVN when I was doing that stuff; but the release was 0.4.0.1 back then, and they're in something like 0.6.x nowadays. < 1237843330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I recently (yesterday) read on their wiki that NPF was superseded(sp?) by YAPF < 1237843337 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's not surprising. < 1237843345 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was "new" quite some time ago. < 1237843354 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I heard about YAPF too. < 1237843357 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zem.fi/ttd_logic/ttd_4adder.png woah. < 1237843373 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the 9000x6000 image? < 1237843377 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom: Yes. < 1237843382 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it almost crashed my browser, 512mb ram sucks < 1237843387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :512MB?! < 1237843389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WHAT THE FUCK < 1237843392 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :awesome though < 1237843392 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, 9136x5504, it's not *that* big. < 1237843392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do you live in africa or something < 1237843394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I see. Anyway OpenTTD seems to me to be much more "game" than "simulator", while simutrans is much less of a game, there are people trying to make it simulate more accurately < 1237843406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway that is the impression I got < 1237843410 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::I i just haven't updated in 5 years < 1237843429 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah that's probably right < 1237843456 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: The funny part is that there's a farm under the middle gate (labeled "_or1"); the buildings got completely overwritten by the copy-paste kludge I did so I wouldn't have to build all those tracks, but the actual fields of grain are still going strong. < 1237843467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1237843474 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The scenario editor didn't let me make a map without a single industry.) < 1237843492 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tombom: 5 years ago 512MB still sucked :P < 1237843502 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know, i know :( oh well < 1237843509 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does well enough < 1237843515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the file is 3.2 MB according to gimp < 1237843516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1237843530 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I didn't open it in browser because that would certainly crash yes < 1237843548 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, yes, it's unashamedly a game. Although train-enthusiasts do keep making graphics sets for all kinds of (mostly German, I think) existing real hardware. < 1237843608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, built in random disasters? The difference between OpenTTD and Simutrans reminds me of the difference between a game where you fly aircrafts and a real flight simulator < 1237843636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that huge image looks like a circuit board when zoomed out heh < 1237843654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :9.09% zoom according to gimp < 1237843667 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What would happen if you used the LIFE register as a namespace? < 1237843713 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And since CHOICE can be used as a namespace, maybe if you should be allowed to use the NAMESPACE command to make the choicepoint a different namespace? That's weird. < 1237843721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, clocking signals? < 1237843759 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:27 zzo38: What would happen if you used the LIFE register as a namespace? < 1237843763 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the namespace would only exist in the future? < 1237843788 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, well, that was for the not-so-well-working "single track, occupied == 1, free == 0" thing. I couldn't figure out a way to make the trains not get stuck with the limited tools I had available without using a specific manual clocking thing to toggle the movements. < 1237843804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah < 1237843812 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The larger pictures use a "two tracks, one for 0, one for 1" signaling, which didn't need that. < 1237843824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1237843835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, did you disable the disaster option? ;) < 1237843863 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, probably. As it says, it takes two months of game-time for the carry information to ripple down in that four-bit ripple-carry adder. < 1237843883 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would advise against using a real-life version of that in a performance-critical application. < 1237843901 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although it would be CRAZY AWESOME to see all those trains going 'round and 'round. < 1237843905 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1237843907 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess that might work, the namespace can exist only in the future. And if #0 is the current real namespace then using DO NAMESPACE #0 AS ,SOMETHINGELSE, might make the current program's registers and labels the same ones in the library, causing a whole bunch of confusion. < 1237843921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it could be funded by tourists who come and see it and get around the place with the trains < 1237843923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the train fares < 1237843926 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(To add 7 and 13 together. And get 4 out of it.) < 1237843928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1237843936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 < 1237843937 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ < 1237843938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :13 < 1237843940 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric := < 1237843942 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4 < 1237843944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a new mathematics. < 1237843967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, building tracks is expensive though :/ < 1237843995 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I guess there's the carry from the MSB too, so it'd be 20 if you read it right. < 1237844020 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't a new mathematics, it seems if it is a 4-bit adder than you would get 7+13=4 because that's what it is if you are limited to 4-bits. < 1237844038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shush that's too logical :-) < 1237844050 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everyone knows that adding is just xor with lameo hand-holding carrys anyway. < 1237844071 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Especially INTERCAL programmers < 1237844075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there is something strange in that picture around 5782,3748 < 1237844075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly! < 1237844090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is pixel as gimp says it < 1237844106 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, green bits above the track? < 1237844110 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rm -f -rf docbook-cheat-sheet/ < 1237844110 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/xsltproc --stringparam base.dir docbook-cheat-sheet/ \ < 1237844112 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : --stringparam use.id.as.filename 1 \ < 1237844113 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ttd_4adder.png seems to depict 0b1011 + 0b1001 = 0b10100. < 1237844114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : --stringparam html.stylesheet fptools.css \ < 1237844116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : --stringparam toc.section.depth 3 --stringparam section.autolabel 1 --stringparam section.label.includes.component.label 1 \ < 1237844119 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : /html/chunk.xsl docbook-cheat-sheet.xml < 1237844121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: failed to load external entity "/html/chunk.xsl" < 1237844123 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cannot parse /html/chunk.xsl < 1237844125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make[2]: *** [docbook-cheat-sheet/index.html] Error 4 < 1237844127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1237844128 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I have it open in a browser, but I'll try to navigate there. < 1237844147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm ok I have it in gimp. It is near the label Sum2 < 1237844166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :between Sum2 and _xor2b < 1237844177 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I found Sum2. < 1237844204 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and there's _xor2b. So what exactly is the strangeness? < 1237844242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, between them, close to sum2 there is a single track going horizontally splitting into multiple tracks going in 90 degrees from it < 1237844256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, some tracks have holes in with grass < 1237844275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems useless to have nothing there, also the turn track indicates there should be something there < 1237844287 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, that's the switchboard. The gate is a generic two-input logic gate, and you use that part to wire what binary operation you want the gate to perform. < 1237844306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so you remove a tile there then? < 1237844331 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, place a tile or remove a tile, I guess it depends on your point of view. Certainly (for a fixed operation) you could make a smaller gate. < 1237844334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireyFly, wouldn't the turn bit on the edge change to an end bit then? < 1237844343 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ^ < 1237844350 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will AnMaster soon write < 1237844358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1237844360 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1237844369 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That there is wired to perform a xor, by connecting the middle two tracks (corresponding to (0,1) and (1,0) inputs) into the "1" output, and the outermost ones ((1,1) and (0,0) inputs) into the "0" output. < 1237844375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireyFly, fi should complete fizzie not you :/ < 1237844384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireyFly, it was like that for months before you came < 1237844385 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1237844392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1237844396 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excuse me for being here :| < 1237844398 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1237844425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, in simutrans if you remove a track that is branching from a straight track the branching bit on the straight track is removed too < 1237844430 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not so in OpenTTD? < 1237844454 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds strange, what if you just want to remove one piece and make it continue to some other direction? < 1237844492 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe I'm not grasping the paradigm here. < 1237844539 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1237844542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I mean, err see the bend like: < 1237844543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : --- < 1237844544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : / < 1237844544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ------- < 1237844544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : | | < 1237844545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :| | | | < 1237844547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that? < 1237844549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1237844551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :irc client fail < 1237844554 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it ate the / < 1237844557 0 :Slereah!n=butt@ANantes-259-1-96-16.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1237844576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, http://rafb.net/p/cE6qvd71.html < 1237844577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that? < 1237844598 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I see that. < 1237844619 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the / is part of the straight track there as you can see < 1237844626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is where the actual turn bit is < 1237844659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, when you removed those bits there in simutrans it would end up looking like this instead: http://rafb.net/p/L6Pa8567.html < 1237844672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in the track is transformed to a straight one < 1237844742 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1237844743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, simutrans has special "end bit" tracks added at the end of straight tracks, which fills half the tile and has one of those bumper thingies on it < 1237844758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all track ends look like that < 1237844763 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, OpenTTD's track editing is pretty "low-level" in the sense that the /s are separate bits of track you can place pretty freely. Although I think there's home helpful stuff in the UI for track-building. Anyway, it won't automatically place those /s there, because you can just as well do a \/-style junction instead of just a / there. Or something like that, anyway. < 1237844807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah I see, simutrans doesn't have that. < 1237844822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, a |- < 1237844849 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, a |- style connection ends up with tracks going from the - track to both directions of the | track < 1237844854 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can turn, but rather slowly < 1237844862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is such a sharp bend < 1237844920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw one thing I'm missing with both openttd and simutrans is the ability to do free form tracks < 1237844940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the real world tracks are not limited to 8 possible directions < 1237844940 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@e-159.vc-graz.ac.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1237844952 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. In openttd you'd have to put in tracks so that it looks a bit like |>- there. Although the whole |> part is in a single square. (And you can do 90-degree very slow turns with something like /\, I'm not quite sure how the "how fast a train can go here" rules go.) < 1237845000 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1237845033 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I don't really play OpenTTD, I just have vague memories on how the track-laying goes. < 1237845034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, for simutrans iirc it calculates it based on horepower, weight of train, weight of cargo, and how sharp the bend has been over a few surrounding tiles (how much depends on how long the train is) < 1237845042 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :horepower < 1237845047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :horse* < 1237845049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was a typo < 1237845052 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it's something like that in OpenTTD too. < 1237845143 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hör hör horepower < 1237845176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, iirc openttd doesn't take the weight of the cargo into account, I read that in some "introduction to simutrans for openttd users", it talked about how this could cause several trains on the same schedule but with different amount of cargo to pile up, because the less loaded ones can go slightly faster (even on straight track) < 1237845204 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a "realistic acceleration" patch which does "weight of the train, the power of the engine and the gradient of the slope it's going up or down; 90-degree curves have a speedlimit of 61 km/h, two successive 45-degree curves in the same direction get limited to 88 km/h; For softer curves, the speedlimit is calculated from the number of direction changes". < 1237845214 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Without the patch it uses whatever original TTD did. < 1237845218 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1237845222 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't know what that is.) < 1237845244 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A haiku: < 1237845245 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compile ghc < 1237845245 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much easier if i had < 1237845247 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8-core computer < 1237845266 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wiki.openttd.org/Junctions has an awful amount of junctions with colorful names. < 1237845275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, simutrans doesn't have as many options as openttd, in simutrans they tend to always enable features, and I think the goal is to be as realistic as you can be when limited to a tile based system with 8 directions for tracks to enter and exit the suare < 1237845277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :square* < 1237845293 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :realism is boring < 1237845294 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, OpenTTD is not so very fixated on realism. < 1237845307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, btw it seems you can't have complex underground networks in openttd? Say stations underground and such? < 1237845314 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But in their own surreal world, they do tend to think about the stuff a lot. < 1237845344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone on the simutrans forum is even working on a patch to make it possible to have slopes underground < 1237845354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can build sub-sea tunnels and such < 1237845360 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and complex underground networks < 1237845379 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think that's inherited from TTD, which just had "a tunnel" and an absolute rule of forbidding tunnel-crossings, even when they're on different levels. They've relaxed that rule in OpenTTD, but you still can't do real junctions or stations inside a mountain. < 1237845381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(currently you are limited to same level as the tunnel enters in simutrans < 1237845421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah I have a simutrans game here with an advanced semi-underground network of maglev trains < 1237845474 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is using the MLM patch to pak128 (128x128 tiles for simutrans, default is pak64) < 1237845483 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, OpenTTD has a "crossing tunnels" cheat which lets tunnels cross. Originally intended for long tunnels in TTDPatch (since those realistically could do a bit of sloping to cross without hitting each other) but with no length restrictions, it looks a bit silly: http://wiki.openttd.org/Crossing_tunnels < 1237845492 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That's only in the cheat menu in OpenTTD.) < 1237845517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, in simutrans you can (once the slopes in tunnels bit is added) build a replica of the london underground < 1237845529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was someone starting on the French metro < 1237845534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Paris that is < 1237845558 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if there's any plans on underground-building in OpenTTD. < 1237845579 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hear they've been complicating the economics and industry-stuff, at least. But I don't really follow the "scene". < 1237845602 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you talking about bees? < 1237845615 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1089.0;attach=2937;image < 1237845615 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Yes, birds and the bees. < 1237845620 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1237845622 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well how do they fly? < 1237845635 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: In 8 cardinal directions only. < 1237845645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, the economics in simutrans are rather primitive < 1237845656 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1089.0;attach=2937;image <<< this looks somewhat like a game < 1237845664 0 :neldoret1!n=user@81-223-127-237.stpeter.xdsl-line.inode.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1237845668 0 :neldoreth!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1237845674 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this a simcity game < 1237845676 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks very TT-inspired, to tell the truth. < 1237845683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes indeed. Pak64 has animals in the background. No actual functionality there < 1237845694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, simutrans. Transport simulation < 1237845700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it certainly is < 1237845713 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wiki.openttd.org/Crossing_tunnels <- that's hilarious < 1237845713 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't played that much of those, i assume their strategical issues are pretty much the same < 1237845736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, agreed, and in simutrans there would be a normal crossing underground there < 1237845741 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i saw the picture, yes, that doesn't really tell me whether it's a "simcity game" < 1237845747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they should call them space-time warps < 1237845748 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, of course it's possible for tunnels to cross < 1237845749 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it just tells me it looks like one < 1237845754 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the real problem is, why can't they cross aboveground? < 1237845757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://wiki.openttd.org/images/6/6e/Crossing_Tunnels.png < 1237845759 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :traintracks can cross there too < 1237845760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://simutrans.com/paksets.htm <-- they look better. Some idiot used way too much jpeg compression on them < 1237845760 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what is hilarious. < 1237845766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I usually play with pak128 < 1237845787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the screen shots are overcompressed < 1237845846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, they can, but in openttd there is no collision detection underground, they can pass through each other like ghosts in that picture ehird linked < 1237845856 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1237845857 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait "Abo Set" < 1237845860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :while over ground they would have to wait at the junction if two met < 1237845875 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess i'm famous < 1237845880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, err what? < 1237845881 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: wut < 1237845895 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1237845895 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Åbo is the Swedish name of the Finnish city of Turku. < 1237845896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1237845900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1237845906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok is turkuian < 1237845908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but why would this imply oklofok is famous? < 1237845918 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because there's an abo set < 1237845926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, there are lots of other people there < 1237845930 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and turku has a population of 3, so < 1237845939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it doesn't < 1237845964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SHUT UP AnMaster TELLING PEOPLE THEY'RE WRONG WHEN IT'S OBVIOUS & OBVIOUSLY NOT SERIOUS IS STUPID AND ANNOYING < 1237845965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;_; < 1237845990 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you accept oklofok's unusual style of very seldom being serious < 1237845998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet you have issues with my opposite style < 1237846003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes. < 1237846007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one is funny the other is irritating < 1237846022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, without me the channel would be unbalanced < 1237846027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more than it is that is < 1237846058 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :decnalabnu is a nice word < 1237846062 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably shower -> < 1237846077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No definitions were found for decnalabnu. < 1237846078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1237846105 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean it could be lojban < 1237846107 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it so isn't < 1237846127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Results 1 - 10 of about 261 for decnalabnu. (0.10 seconds) < 1237846131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes me wonder... < 1237846155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you mean: dynalab Top 2 results shown < 1237846159 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err i just usually reverse sentences in my head < 1237846177 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, ooooh I see < 1237846184 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first result on google tells you that < 1237846185 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1237846185 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :o < 1237846196 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also second, fourth, fifth results. < 1237846199 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, your results might vary. < 1237846206 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does third do it < 1237846221 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait maybe different results. < 1237846229 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :show er -> < 1237846242 0 :tombom!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1237846242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, not the ones I see < 1237846243 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Possibly; third here was just "World of Warcraft" forums-post by someone called Decnalabnu. < 1237846247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are all virtual sheet music < 1237846248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1237846254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first 5 I mean < 1237846255 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"?decnalabnu er'ew tahT ?yas ot gniyrt uoy era tahW" < 1237846266 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can you avoid reversing that? < 1237846280 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It almost has a 0gnirts in it. :p < 1237846314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, there are some languages starting questions with upside down ?, I assumed it was something like that but with a non-uppside down one < 1237846321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it 0"gnirts" < 1237846322 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or a right to left script < 1237846333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes technically < 1237846334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ...seriously? < 1237846336 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come on < 1237846339 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its obviously english < 1237846348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, here I just get two virtual sheet music things with that sort of obviously-reversed text, the less clear WoW post, and the next is "hcraeS tcudorP elgooG - rexim oidua" which is quite a giveaway. < 1237846350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes seriously, I'm not good at reading reversed < 1237846361 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use rev(1) when writing strings for befunge programs < 1237846376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or enter the string the other way around < 1237846419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"hcraeS tcudorP elgooG - rexim oidua" which is quite a giveaway. <-- ? < 1237846434 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With elgooG and everything. < 1237846450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right. I didn't notice that < 1237846458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess because I'm used to see it the other way around < 1237846459 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I guess it's not obvious to everyone. I just assumed, since I suck at anagrammatics and such. < 1237846470 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, here's fizzie's high quality encryption method in Ruby. < 1237846471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ruby -ne'$_.each_byte {|x| print((x^42).chr)}' < 1237846485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anagrams, I fail totally at them < 1237846488 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[22:12:44] I use rev(1) when writing strings for befunge programs < 1237846489 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meh < 1237846496 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I enter them backwards manuassy < 1237846501 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Manually* < 1237846515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireyFly, < 1237846634 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "rexim oidua" sounds like a NetHack scroll. ELBIB YLOH, after all. And DUAM XNAHT. <-- what? I never noticed they were reversed until you said it.. Just thought it was gibberish < 1237846639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hnuh < 1237846720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how would you write a befunge program to print a single g? < 1237846724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then exit < 1237846728 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Those are the reversed ones I could think of. Others have different etymologies. Like there's the JUYED AWK YACC, for Unix-toolsy people. < 1237846751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION just found a perfect way to golf it
< 1237846772 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server" < 1237846779 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who is Maud < 1237846783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm fairly certain it can < 1237846786 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I would write it 'g,@ but I'm guessing your idea has something to do with g at (0, 0) and the pop-from-stack. < 1237846788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't* be made shorter < 1237846796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes indeed < 1237846799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :g,@ < 1237846800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is mine < 1237846857 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's another piece of scroll-trivia: KIRJE (which is also one of the random scroll names) is the Finnish translation of the English word "letter". < 1237846886 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(In the "I mailed you a letter" sense, not the "character of an alphabet" sense.) < 1237846886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, was that the intention of it? < 1237846902 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it's a scroll. It might be mail. < 1237846917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION mails fizzie a letter containing a single letter (both sense used here)
< 1237846946 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Finally, KIRJE was added together with the mail code in Hack 1.0.2." < 1237846946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: no, mail is "a stamped scroll" < 1237846954 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yes, but that's where it came from. < 1237846962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it was designed for mail < 1237846972 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then added as a random description when they switched to randomizing descriptions < 1237846977 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.spod-central.org/~psmith/nh/anhf.html has historistical info. < 1237846980 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For others, too. < 1237847021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, http://forum.simutrans.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1444.0;attach=4207;image < 1237847021 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than a former player < 1237847034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, uses the underground slope patch < 1237847087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, doesn't the scroll of mail say "scroll of mail or such"? Pretty sure it was identified when I got it from the post daemon... < 1237847097 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's "a stamped scroll", IIRD < 1237847099 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*IIRC < 1237847099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mail daemon* < 1237847102 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it identifies when you read it < 1237847112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well maybe I identified one before then < 1237847119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a long running game so could be true < 1237847155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm trying out pudding farming, my conclusions so far is that it isn't something I will do again, too boring) < 1237847184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the general conclusion about pudding farming is that you could just have won in the time you spent doing the farming < 1237847213 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh I agree < 1237847256 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think mooz once ascended one character who dug out each and every square of all Gehennom levels that's not undiggable. That's one way to spend time, all right. < 1237847335 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it's then easy to walk between staircases when finally going up. < 1237847376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I tend to dig a lot down there to make the path up as fast as possible, so I dig a straight path between the down and up stairs < 1237847407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tends to reduce time and reduce risk of running into rodney < 1237847430 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's quite common, I think. < 1237847433 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yes < 1237847434 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone does that < 1237847438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1237847461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, though I actually came up with that idea myself before I heard that "everyone does that" first time < 1237847524 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh: [2006-12-12 13:47:01] I wonder why the Wikipedia category "Species extinct in the wild" has the page "User talk:TrogdorPolitiks". < 1237847531 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it's so anymore. < 1237847566 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, it seems to have disappeared. < 1237847567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most likely a typo < 1237847570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I guess someone forgot : in front of [[Category:]] when linking to it < 1237847578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's very easy to do [[Category: rather than [[:Category: < 1237847593 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :especially as the colon-prefix is unique to categories and files < 1237847599 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but you see it when you proof read with the preview button... < 1237847613 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not everyone bothers to preview < 1237847622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, huh. that sounds very strange < 1237847650 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I was grepping the logs to find any info about mooz's extinctionist, which sounded like another rather special game. Although admittedly extinctionist is probably not as uncommon as "crazy excavator".) < 1237847665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes extinctionist... < 1237847666 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: extinctionist is actually pretty common < 1237847672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my current pudding farming game is also that < 1237847686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well both that and genociding < 1237847687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, you'll probably extinct puddings pretty quickly < 1237847704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes, but other monsiders too < 1237847707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :monsters* < 1237847726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I had the luck of a level with up and down stairs close to each other and an altar very close to that too < 1237847750 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[22:47:10] <@mooz> heh an extinctionist reports that create familiar creates an archon 50% of the time when everything else is extinct < 1237847750 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[22:47:28] <@mooz> says he has 15 pet archons < 1237847755 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's funny. < 1237847764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1237847772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I haven't got that far yet < 1237847787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway val tends to suck at casting spells < 1237847793 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll agree with that < 1237847799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, which line? < 1237847801 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, valk doesn't need to cast spells < 1237847804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1237847806 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the valk casting thing < 1237847814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, valk is the easiest one IMO < 1237847955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, so what about the image I linked above? < 1237847971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no way to do such stuff in openttd I guess? < 1237847976 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1237847987 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks like the underground-mode of SimCity 2000. :p < 1237847996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never played simcity < 1237848031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm I'd want free form tracks, not restricted to tiles < 1237848040 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and different gradients for slopes < 1237848041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and such < 1237848054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, it's not that similar, but: http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/simcity-2000/screenshots/gameShotId,313830/ < 1237848085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireyFly, how old is that..? Looks very old < 1237848099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more like 1997 than 2000 < 1237848101 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1902, that's what it says < 1237848109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that is the *in game year* < 1237848128 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, you wanted SimCity 2000's age? It came out in 1993 < 1237848133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1237848138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains the look < 1237848186 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The above-ground mode looks a bit less ugly, although obviously the toolbars do not change. < 1237848206 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/simcity-2000/screenshots/gameShotId,3355/ or something. < 1237848261 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireyFly: Have you considered changing your name to "F1reyFly" or something to avoid the "AnMaster tab issue"? :p < 1237848261 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm is there any size limit of station and connected buildings in openttd? < 1237848274 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1237848283 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Are you sure? < 1237848286 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1237848293 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Well, what are the limits? < 1237848294 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can increase the limit though < 1237848301 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I recall correctly, anyway < 1237848313 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll say something like "station extent too large" if you have too big stations < 1237848321 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're supposedly bad for performance < 1237848324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one issue I found in simutrans is that you can build a station that covers the whole city using cheap bus stops next to each other all the way from a train station in the middle < 1237848327 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no, I don't remember the default max size < 1237848350 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. I remember it was possible to do pretty crazily long "disconnected" stations. < 1237848359 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But really, I'm no OpenTTD expert. < 1237848370 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Disconnected might work better < 1237848374 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure myself < 1237848375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh yes that is possible too, by building next to each other and then removing the ones in between < 1237848393 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://wiki.openttd.org/Change_station_spread < 1237848475 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, meh, and buy a new domain? < 1237848478 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And, hm < 1237848482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, there are legitimate reasons for larger ones, like huge airports connecting train, bus, maglev, monorail and boat or such < 1237848491 0 :FireyFly!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :FireFly < 1237848502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and tram too < 1237848505 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly < 1237848505 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know, I have made large stations in my time < 1237848515 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION catches FireFly in a butterfly net -----\XXXXX/
< 1237848520 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::( < 1237848524 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry about that, just oerjan was being slow < 1237848525 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION burns the net
< 1237848526 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I have increased the station spread setting to accommodate my stations :-P < 1237848527 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION releases FireFly
< 1237848532 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, you still complete first < 1237848533 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oi, don't burn my net < 1237848535 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the strategical aspects of these games < 1237848536 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION douses the net
< 1237848540 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mainly, are there any < 1237848543 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily, it appears unharmed < 1237848545 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Maybe you could tweak the tab-completion? < 1237848550 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, burning a net while in it is unwise < 1237848558 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, this is my main nick; you're welcome < 1237848558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, too much work meh < 1237848562 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please give me a thorough understanding of the concept in one sentence < 1237848563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1237848583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, but I just made a station covering a whole city using car parking (very cheap) and that isn't realistic < 1237848587 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: There be trains. < 1237848600 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like strategy games to me < 1237848609 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Build a transportation network, trying to make as much money as possible within some given amount of years. You can't lose unless you suck. < 1237848610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, and aircrafts, and boats, and trams, and buses and so on < 1237848623 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...what's the topic? < 1237848623 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Or unless you play against humans. < 1237848639 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Do people actually play against each other, typically? < 1237848641 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: so is it more about having fun making nice stations? < 1237848645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, in simutrans you can loose easily, money is much harder to get by in the beginning < 1237848646 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I have friends who do. < 1237848654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even later on the profit isn't that huge < 1237848656 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Yeah, and optimizing their traffic flow and such. < 1237848665 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Now that OpenTTD has working net-multiplayer. < 1237848671 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i can imagine optimization < 1237848671 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I've had the impression that people mostly play cooperative < 1237848686 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Maybe mostly, but not always. < 1237848689 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really strategy tho, but should probably try it to see what the deal is < 1237848714 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1237848727 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oklofok, and aircrafts, and boats, and trams, and buses and so on <<< must add terribly interesting strategical aspects < 1237848745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, are you being sarcastic? < 1237848757 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not only these things that go on tracks, but also these things that go on these other tracks that are usually much less constrained in real life! < 1237848764 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1237848766 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :naturally < 1237848772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, aircrafts don't go on tracks < 1237848774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in simutrans < 1237848779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor do boats < 1237848782 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1237848783 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1237848785 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: At least "hardcore" OpenTTD seems to be mostly about trying to find maximally profitable track layouts and such, under the very very unrealistic rules of the game. And from what I've seen, trains seem to bring the big bucks in that game. < 1237848820 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's an NDS version of OpenTTD :o < 1237848822 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It helps that the new versions of TTD are mostly about making trains better while not caring much about the other vehicles. :-P < 1237848829 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how does population work? continuous? implicit, maybe? < 1237848836 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Well, except that for model-train-hobbyist-people it seems to be more about trying to recreate real-world trains as a graphics tileset in the game. < 1237848847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, in simutrans the money is on high speed passenger transports for large cities (speed matters for passenger, a whopping 18% speedbonus there) < 1237848857 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah i don't believe in real-world trains < 1237848890 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Population grows in the presence of some kind of transportation or if the city is big enough, withers otherwise. (I think.) < 1237848916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means that you get more profit if going over the baseline speed. (which is calculated as average max speed of all current non-obsolete trains/trucks/whatever, one value for each category) < 1237848938 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the NDS port was a bit... experimental? < 1237848939 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: sounds sensible < 1237848952 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps < 1237848960 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: Which is why it might be wrong. ;-) < 1237848962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example the current "no-timeline" game has baselevel 60 km/h for roads, 35 km/h for ships, 80 km/h for trains and so on < 1237848982 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'll test the Linux version before trying the .nds < 1237848991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/roads/buses and trucks/ < 1237848994 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"play maps with a size of up to 256x128"; isn't that even smaller than the original TTD? < 1237849020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : There's an NDS version of OpenTTD :o <-- what is NDS? < 1237849027 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nintendo DS. < 1237849027 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: well sounds like if population follows your stations, all levels would be pretty equal < 1237849028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* Received a CTCP VERSION from oerjan <-- yes and? < 1237849033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah I see < 1237849034 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Yeah, I think 256*256 was the old maximum < 1237849057 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I probably should install the DS version, just because I could then show it to those OpenTTD freaksies I know. < 1237849064 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: The maps are too big for it to be practical to build by all cities. < 1237849073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what a small map < 1237849084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm playing on a 768x768 map here < 1237849087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in simutrans < 1237849096 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm < 1237849098 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: And since the initial values are random, there's plenty of variation, in my experience. < 1237849100 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means I can't have firefox running at the same time < 1237849101 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The PC version does 2048x2048. < 1237849101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1237849109 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How come I wasn't highlighted? :| < 1237849110 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never play over 512x512, I find that big enough by far < 1237849124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah yes, I think I heard of someone going 8000x8000 in simutrans < 1237849128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :may misremember < 1237849135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway my system couldn't handle that < 1237849151 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The NDS has 4 MB of RAM, and I don't think OpenTTD developers have been too concerned about memory usage lately. < 1237849184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, highlighted for what? < 1237849189 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: checking if you had the same client (and tab behavior) < 1237849193 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[22:57:03] < 1237849195 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That < 1237849209 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe your client notices quoting of comments < 1237849211 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1237849211 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doesn't highlight on them < 1237849218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1237849223 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe that's the case < 1237849230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-FireFly- VERSION KVIrc 3.4.0 'Virgo' 20080323 - build Mon Oct 27 02:53:09 UTC 2008 - i486-bcefikoprsxAGTZ - Linux (2.6.27-9-generic) < 1237849232 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, irssi varies dependent on who spoke last < 1237849234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i486-bcefikoprsxAGTZ? wth < 1237849248 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't ask me :| < 1237849249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders what platform that is
< 1237849271 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Original TTD seems to have system requirements of "386-33 Mhz processor or better; 4Mb memory" -- so since the DS has 66+33MHz of processing power and 4 megs of memory, it should run that just fine. < 1237849274 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks.. encrypted < 1237849284 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks sorted to me. < 1237849290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, 66+33? < 1237849295 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Dual CPU? < 1237849299 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1237849303 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, there's 66 MHz ARM9 and 33 MHz ARM7. < 1237849303 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1237849307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a handheld < 1237849311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why on earth? < 1237849330 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The ARM7 drives sounds and mic input and things like that. < 1237849331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one? < 1237849334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1237849336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1237849349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mic input? hm < 1237849353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1237849372 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some games have various gimmics to do with the microphone input, yes. < 1237849380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1237849384 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's partly for the GBA compability < 1237849397 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't the GBA have simply an ARM7? < 1237849397 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's another good reason. The GBA had just that 33 MHz ARM7. < 1237849402 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1237849411 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When running GBA games, the ARM9 is offline. < 1237849422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see < 1237849435 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wants a GBA emu for my card :(
< 1237849450 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if it isn't possible < 1237849490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what card? < 1237849510 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A M3 DS Simply.. Card for running homebrew stuff < 1237849514 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :An* < 1237849525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh ok < 1237849532 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have this R4DS, which I guess is pretty much identical. It's a nds-slot thing too, doesn't do GBA. < 1237849568 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From what I've heard, the only difference is the sticker < 1237849581 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As well as default theme for the firmware, I guess < 1237849590 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The GBA slot things tend to add some more RAM; dslinux works better with that sort of stuff. For some reason it's a bit iffy with 4 megs. < 1237849626 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, then there's these extra RAM packs < 1237849645 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like the one that comes with the Opera browser < 1237849692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :external ram? wouldn't that be slow < 1237849710 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It's not that far from the CPU in a portable." < 1237849734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ok true. But what about the bandwidth? < 1237849768 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a GBA cart, btw < 1237849768 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't see how the GBA slots differs much from a DIMM slot, physically speaking. But I have no clue how the hardwarey part is done. < 1237849793 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually have a disassembled DS original somewhere here < 1237849808 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, they've released a "DSi" variant which has removed the GBA slots but installed a couple of VGA-resolution cameras on it, and comes with a download-games web-store-thing. Heh. Hadn't noticed. < 1237849810 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My sister broke her DS, now it's my toy < 1237849831 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've read. But, shorter battery life < 1237849850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a couple of cameras? < 1237849852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wth < 1237849866 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Two, at 3 MP IIRC < 1237849867 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :256 MB of flash, SD card slot, 16 megs of ram, 133 MHz ARM9. Heh. They're trying to make a computer out of it. < 1237849873 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.3 MP, says WikiPedia. < 1237849875 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For multiplayer stuff < 1237849877 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1237849881 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VGA, you know. 640x480. < 1237849893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, two cameras? Must mean stereo vision or something? < 1237849899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or why else would there be two of them < 1237849899 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope < 1237849899 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"one on the internal hinge pointed towards the user and the second one in the outer shell" < 1237849905 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ehm < 1237849908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1237849909 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1237849912 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too fast :( < 1237849915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange still < 1237849928 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure the DS developers are desperately trying to think up ways to use that stuff. < 1237849931 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But, the SD slot confuses me < 1237849949 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some of the microphone tricks have been very curious. Like that zelda game you needed to shout at. < 1237849964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone with lot of money should buy two Canon EOS or whatever they are called and glue them together back to back < 1237849967 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't that pretty much inviting homebrewers/running illegal ROMs? < 1237849970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be about as silly < 1237849987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you could take photographs of the photographer while photographing < 1237849988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1237850020 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Infinite loop! < 1237850038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CF is better than SD in my experience, less risk of it getting lost < 1237850043 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those SD are so small < 1237850049 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why? I like my SDs < 1237850050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my camera use proper CF < 1237850058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, as I said above, they are too small < 1237850059 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially micro SDs :D < 1237850066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, yeah I hate them < 1237850068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too small < 1237850070 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think a lot of mobile phones have two cameras nowadays. One low-resolution one pointing at the user (well, to the direction where the screen is facing) for video-telephony, one higher-resolution for photography. < 1237850103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, maybe, that would explain that weird thing in the upper corner of mine, wondered what it was for < 1237850119 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still astonished how 8 gigs could fit in a micro SD.. It's about as thin as a nail < 1237850121 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MicroSD cards are one of the few things that make me feel like I live in the future. Two gigabytes in a fingernail-size thing. < 1237850129 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, they're up to 8 now? < 1237850129 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1237850145 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The SDHC stuff is, I think < 1237850147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1237850150 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you live in the future. < 1237850157 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't have any of those readers < 1237850158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1237850170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my mobile phone can use micro SD < 1237850174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have any card < 1237850175 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Otherwise it has been a huge disappointment: the cities are still not in domes, cars refuse to fly, and so on. But at least microsd cards are small! < 1237850181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or any reader in my computer < 1237850191 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Pandora has 2x (standard) SDHC cards, I believe it was mak 32 gig each < 1237850193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though for some reason my printer can handle lots of card formats < 1237850200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not micro sd < 1237850203 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: shanghai, while not in a dome, might as well be < 1237850208 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, 64 gig storage, in mem cards < 1237850209 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: we should be _happy_ cars don't fly < 1237850216 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: you know, http://pool14.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/shanghai_skyline_g.jpg < 1237850219 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any microSD card I've bought has come with a standard-SD-card adapter. < 1237850234 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Okay, that looks appropriately futuristic. < 1237850235 0 :Asztal_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine did too. < 1237850241 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same here, though it's only one < 1237850255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I don't have any SD reader < 1237850265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1237850274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, what is wrong with compact flash? < 1237850281 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Too big, I guess. < 1237850289 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Takes up a lot of space in a mobile phone. < 1237850291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, more robust? < 1237850292 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no flying cars and no faster than light travel. general relativity is such a bitch. < 1237850294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1237850308 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CF is less robust, because those metal pin things can break inside the card < 1237850318 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you are not careful taking it out < 1237850319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, how are flying cars related to relativity < 1237850324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also there have been flying cars < 1237850329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, let me find the link < 1237850339 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how can you get cars flying _properly_ if antigravity is impossible? < 1237850342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.aerocar.com/ < 1237850343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that < 1237850345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ^ < 1237850354 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a vague feeling of "professional-quality" cameras being a bit biased to CF cards. And at least some point the best CF cards were still faster than the competition. < 1237850355 0 :Asztal_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except for sony phones, because sony decided they'd go and invent M2, the same thing as MicroSD but Sony get more money... :( < 1237850356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is real yes < 1237850359 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makes me think of old M$ games < 1237850361 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1237850367 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Impossible Creatures < 1237850375 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i'm pretty sure most pro cameras use SD now. < 1237850385 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or both SD and CF < 1237850395 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament: Yes, my vague feelings are a couple of years out-of-date. < 1237850399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, what makes you think of it? < 1237850404 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What did CF stand for? < 1237850409 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CompactFlash. < 1237850412 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, it has some flying lab < 1237850412 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compact flush < 1237850413 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah < 1237850416 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerocar < 1237850418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that too < 1237850424 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CompactFlush, the latest in toilet technology. < 1237850428 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if it needs a runway it doesn't count ;D < 1237850438 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The R4DS, which uses microsd card for storage, came with a USB stick into which you can stick a microsd card; that was reasonably friendly. < 1237850439 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then there's those xD cards < 1237850447 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Made out of laughing smileys < 1237850449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, there have been some experiments with helicopter style too iirc < 1237850456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but helicopters are really hard to fly < 1237850460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to planes < 1237850480 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "My tank is fight" book has an awesome flying tank. (Not very practical, though.) < 1237850508 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is that book about?... < 1237850525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"My tank is fight" sounds like bad grammar < 1237850527 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Craziest world-war-2-age inventions, both German and others. < 1237850535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh I see < 1237850543 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It originated from somethingawful, that might explain the name. < 1237850558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, not really, I don't know what "somethingawful" is < 1237850566 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::o < 1237850584 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You are certainly not very "hip", I guess. < 1237850601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, don't be silly, everyone has a hip < 1237850611 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"'My Tank Is Fight!' contains a humorous and exciting examination of 20 real inventions from World War II that never saw the light of day. Each entry includes full technical details, a complete development history, in-depth analysis, and a riveting fictionalized account of the invention's success or failure on the battlefield." (Although some of them did see the light of the day, to some extent.) < 1237850614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I guess unless you got hurt very badly < 1237850618 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use your hip when hopping < 1237850681 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would think the hip is a bit too close to vital organs for many living persons to lack one < 1237850717 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Occasionally the book is a bit over-silly, but in some other places it's more subdued. Here's a quotation from the sillier parts; I have a hunch you don't appreciate, since it's a bit random. < 1237850722 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Think of your eyes as a castle and normal light radiation as goblins that run around outside in a mad pack and then assault the castle. The rampaging horde of goblins overcomes your castle's defenses and sacks the place, and then they burn it to the ground. When they burn your castle, that's how you see! IR radiation is more like the treacherous mole men who burrow beneath the moat and erupt in your throne room. They sack the place and kill everyone just lik < 1237850722 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e the goblins, but they leave the castle intact so you never actually see anything. Actually, that was more confusing than not knowing about infrared. Let's try again." < 1237850740 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It's about the first night-vision inventions.) < 1237850786 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sounds reasonable < 1237850789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1237850792 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what on earth < 1237850817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that made no sense < 1237850830 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks that could be a hellboy story
< 1237850832 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I sort-of expected that reaction. < 1237850833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does fantasy have to do with infrared at all < 1237850871 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't; it's acknowledged there at the end. < 1237850900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a better way would be to compare with how older people can't hear those insects "syrsor" (don't know the English name) and say it is a bit like that, you can't see it, only in this case not because of a short wavelength but due to a very long one < 1237850931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly, translation help? < 1237850956 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: crickets < 1237850960 0 :Judofyr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1237850963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah maybe that is it < 1237850969 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah < 1237851027 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 1: google syrsor, note the latin name, step 2: google the latin name (gryllidae) < 1237851060 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, I'm not sure if the point was really to have a good analogy here. < 1237851088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wrong. Step 1) notice oerjan, FireFly or some other Scandinavian person is around. Step 2) ask for translation < 1237851089 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1237851099 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i guess i could also do step 2: look at language links from swedish wikipedia < 1237851116 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to follow oklopol to a (different!) shower now. Try to talk only about boring things. < 1237851136 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :step 1: Alt-tab to Opera; Step 2: enter "tyda syrsor"; Step 3: Press enter < 1237851146 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i am merely teaching you how to fi^W look up fish species < 1237851182 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tyda? < 1237851254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1237851257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fi^W? < 1237851259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was that < 1237851262 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw does that work if i'm not swedish? google's define:syrsor gives me nothing < 1237851281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I use google.com not google.se < 1237851284 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ^W is delete word (emacs style i think) < 1237851292 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is google.se like goatse.cx? < 1237851293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes but what was the fi word? < 1237851297 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fish < 1237851309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, the joke makes no sense < 1237851310 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you not familiar with the adage? < 1237851342 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime" < 1237851360 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION likes the Terry Pratchett version of that
< 1237851362 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/./"/, stupid weird quotes < 1237851368 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION sets ais523 on fire
< 1237851375 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch! < 1237851386 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume that's the one < 1237851396 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1237851413 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i would guess google.com would be even worse for finding swedish definitions < 1237851424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah < 1237851434 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point is define: seems to only look up some large languages + norwegian for me < 1237851449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, don't remember the TP version < 1237851456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did it go? < 1237851464 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yay, I learned that quote from Civ4 < 1237851468 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "Give a man a fire, and he's warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life." < 1237851472 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About fishing < 1237851473 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ahah < 1237851484 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Games are good for yau < 1237851489 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-a+o < 1237851584 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm wait, actually it is really lousy in norwegian too < 1237851600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :despite actually listing the language, it doesn't find "fisk" :/ < 1237852029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have an awesomely outdated nintendo ds homebrew setup < 1237852049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i got the stuff from lik-sang :-D < 1237852083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it involves a "GBA Movie player" with an engrish packaging, a "MAX MEDIA LAUNCHER" DS cartridge, and patience. < 1237852186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I put scummvm on it < 1237852283 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION points out that lik-sang _would_ mean "corpse song" in norwegian
< 1237852296 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, the hyphen is redundant) < 1237852307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: it means "powerful and energetic", apparently < 1237852310 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lik_Sang < 1237852345 0 :neldoret1!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :neldoreth < 1237852426 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1237852443 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that certainly resembles a corpse, don't know about the music < 1237852461 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty close to the swedish counterpart as well < 1237852465 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, well < 1237852473 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"å" instead of "a" < 1237852492 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's an awesome coincidenc < 1237852492 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e < 1237852569 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :R4RS "manual" and firmware packages (and website) is rather Engrish-rich too. < 1237852613 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh http://wiki.openttd.org/Feeder_service <-- that seems to imply that cargo doesn't have fixed destination, that you could drop passengers at any stop in OpenTTD? < 1237852620 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would be rather silly < 1237852627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: it runs Scheme? :D < 1237852645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather I would expect generated passengers to have a destination and then try to find a path through your transportation network < 1237852646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to do it < 1237852660 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But uh, this homebrew system is pretty elaborate; back then in 2006 you basically could do that, or modify the ds < 1237852664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I didn't want to bother with the latter < 1237852664 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: R4DS. I *always* write it R4DS. < 1237852671 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Er, R4RS. < 1237852675 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is the typo. < 1237852678 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not this time, I see :D < 1237852689 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently not. I might not be at my brightest right now. < 1237852696 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION looks upr4fs.
< 1237852704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why, in my day that would be luxury! < 1237852705 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*r4ds < 1237852710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* oerjan points out that lik-sang _would_ mean "corpse song" in norwegian <-- same here, except it would be "liksång" < 1237852725 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I started the DS-ery rather late; there were cheap and simple tools. < 1237852732 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, [23:54:25] It's pretty close to the swedish counterpart as well < 1237852734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's pretty close to the swedish counterpart as well Or, well "å" instead of "a" < 1237852737 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1237852739 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"lich song" < 1237852741 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, missed that < 1237852764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lament, where did fantasy monsters enter into it? < 1237852789 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Now I accidentally autocompleted my own nick >_> < 1237852792 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyways