00:00:15 <FireFly> fizzie, I also bought my card quite late
00:00:31 <FireFly> Well.. 1½ year ago, at least
00:00:47 <fizzie> fi:liksa is a colloquialism of fi:palkka, which is en:salary; unfortunately that leaves the "ng" part unused, and there's that inter-word "-" too.
00:01:00 <ehird> The actual usage of mine is pretty simple; the GBA card is just there so you can stick the SD card with the data on it in, see. It has a hole in the cartridge, you're meant to put videos/pictures etc on it.
00:01:11 <ehird> So then you put the max media launcher in the DS slot, and it reads the card and runs it.
00:01:45 <FireFly> That's the passme way thingy?
00:01:51 <ehird> Yeah; but less "raw".
00:01:54 <ehird> http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=7100 Max media launcher
00:02:02 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBA_Movie_Player
00:02:08 <fizzie> I do remember seeing that combination mentioned.
00:02:20 <fizzie> Back when I was considering what sort of hardware to get.
00:02:32 <FireFly> I don't think I've ever used the GBA slot on my DS :\
00:02:39 <fizzie> Then I just decided to go with the NDS-slot-only solution, even though that doesn't let you run GBA stuff on it.
00:02:46 <ehird> Yeah, I have a GBA SP so I play gameboy advance games on that
00:02:53 <ehird> It's lighter and stuff.
00:03:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: i assume "lich" is etymologically related
00:03:10 <FireFly> My brother has a GBA SP, so I play GBA stuff on it
00:03:31 <fizzie> "Old English līċ. Cognate with Dutch lijk, German Leiche, Swedish/Norwegian/Danish lik."
00:03:33 <oerjan> do you need EVERYTHING explained?
00:03:42 <ehird> The original GBA was pretty silly-looking.
00:03:44 <ehird> I much prefer the SP
00:03:53 <AnMaster> btw what is "lich" in Swedish? I mean, when talking about the fantasy monster
00:04:00 <FireFly> I had a GBA Original, I liked it
00:04:50 <ehird> huh, the gba movie player lets you play NES games on a gba
00:04:52 * oerjan swats AnMaster to within an inch of his life -----###
00:04:53 <ehird> I should try that sometime
00:05:08 <FireFly> tyda couldn't translate, lexin couldn't, wiki couldn't
00:05:15 <fizzie> There's a NES emulator for DS, though?
00:05:21 <ehird> fizzie: Well, probably.
00:05:33 <ehird> Also, the pokemon rpgs are far too addictive. :x
00:05:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:05:34 <fizzie> NesDS, yes. Very imaginative name.
00:05:49 <FireFly> Wiki has a nice collection of DS HB stuff
00:05:49 <ehird> I got a glitch in my pokemon sapphire game that I worked a lot on; it just wouldn't advance to the next stage of the game.
00:05:52 <ehird> That was pretty irritating.
00:06:13 <ehird> Oh, and on the topic of pseudomath, I used to try and fit uncountable sets into countable ones.
00:06:13 <ais523> ehird: were you messing with the GBA/DS you were playing it on?
00:06:27 <FireFly> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nintendo_DS_homebrew
00:06:28 <ais523> and how could you work a lot on it and yet not complete all the stages of the game?
00:06:31 <ehird> I was just waiting for some stadium or other surrounded by water to unlock, which it should, but it wouldn't.
00:06:39 <ehird> So I just wandered around trying to fix it; which I couldn't.
00:06:48 <ais523> err... which stadium in particular?
00:06:57 <ehird> I don't actually recall, this was years ago
00:07:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> Also, the pokemon rpgs are far too addictive. :x <-- they are? never had any gba or ds or such. Nor any pokemon game or such. I was never into that stuff.
00:08:04 <FireFly> Even when playing in an emulator :\
00:08:33 <fizzie> Wonder how well nethack's DS port works.
00:09:02 <ehird> Okay, even Bulbapedia doesn't have in-depth stadium info for each game.
00:09:15 <oerjan> FireFly: the fantasy meaning of "lich" seems to be from D&D according to wp
00:09:31 <ais523> I didn't think Pokemon Sapphire had stadia
00:09:37 <FireFly> That's quite ancient, older than me
00:09:37 <ais523> and me and my brother completely completed it between us
00:09:57 <ehird> ais523: well, I'm not sure if it was a stadium or what
00:10:01 <ehird> all I know is it was surrounded by water
00:10:05 <ehird> and it was locked.
00:10:18 <ais523> ehird: half the game of pokemon sapphire's surrounded by water
00:10:26 <ehird> Yes. That's why that's not too helpful.
00:10:27 <ais523> there was probably just something you were missing, rather than a glitch
00:10:51 <ehird> ais523: Well, some other people who had reached that point a few times took a look over the game and couldn't find anything.
00:11:30 <ehird> Anyone know a GBA emulator for os x?
00:11:36 <FireFly> My brother got stuck in one of those DS pkmn dungeon games
00:11:51 <FireFly> Isn't VBA ported to the mac?
00:12:07 <FireFly> IIRC there's even a Wii version
00:12:26 <AnMaster> ehird, Bulbapedia <-- what a silly name
00:12:31 <ehird> AnMaster: what's silly about it
00:12:34 <ehird> bulbasaur -> bulbapedia
00:12:52 <AnMaster> ok... what the heck is "bulbasaur"?
00:13:14 <ais523> bulbasaur is in fact #1
00:13:18 <ehird> "I seee. And, you say this pokemon is the name of a pokemon site? Uhh huh. I'm sure."
00:13:19 <ais523> which is the reason people pick it
00:13:21 <FireFly> Visual Basic for Applications, the application edition of Microsoft's Visual Basic programming language.
00:13:28 <AnMaster> FireFly, I only know there is this yellow thing called pikatu or something like that
00:13:34 <ehird> AnMaster: you're hilarious
00:13:35 <ais523> there are over 450 of the things nowadays
00:13:38 <ehird> don't ever stop being AnMaster
00:13:46 <AnMaster> oh... some red/white balls too right?
00:13:56 <ehird> AnMaster you're great.
00:14:13 -!- tromp has left (?).
00:14:18 <ais523> FireFly: I don't think I've ever met a Cyndaquil fan before...
00:14:22 <ehird> i know. that's the best thing, AnMaster
00:14:42 <ehird> cyndaquil looks like it's shitting fire out of its butt. just saying.
00:14:52 <fizzie> A friend did ascii-art versions of the first #134.
00:14:55 <ehird> thought you might like to know
00:15:03 <ehird> fizzie: does mooz still exist
00:15:19 <AnMaster> ehird, I had a different upbrininging I guess, rather than watching TV one of my parents used to read aloud out of classical children books when I grew up. Stuff like that does affect you
00:15:23 <fizzie> ehird: I haven't heard anything in a couple of months, but I do suspect so, yes.
00:15:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:15:31 <ehird> AnMaster: I didn't watch tv.
00:15:40 <fizzie> ehird: He's a married man nowadays, maybe not so much time for IRC.
00:15:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well I did a tiny bit, not much.
00:15:47 <FireFly> I still have some of the TCG cards
00:15:50 <ehird> fizzie: why would you do anything to reduce your possible IRC time
00:15:54 <ehird> that's just illogical
00:16:04 <AnMaster> ehird, you are too young to realise it I gues...
00:16:06 <fizzie> ehird: Also not sure if he's still in Finland, or in Peru now.
00:16:13 <ehird> see? In Peru I bet IRC is outlawed.
00:16:15 <ehird> What a stupid guy.
00:16:19 <ehird> Does he live in bizarro world?
00:16:25 <ehird> i bet he sleeps too
00:16:31 <ehird> why people sleep I will never figure out
00:16:38 <ehird> 'hur hur I'll just STOP IRCING that is a good thing to do'
00:17:07 <ehird> what are grades good for, apart from getting jobs that siphon time off from irc.
00:17:15 <ehird> well, a few jumped steps there
00:17:16 <ehird> but you get the idea.
00:17:20 <ehird> it's all an anti irc conspiracy.
00:17:28 <AnMaster> so I googled for this "Cyndaquil" mentioned above... "It evolves into Quilava starting at level 14" <-- wth? That isn't how evolution works at all
00:17:30 <FireFly> Grades means good job means programming & IRCing means ?? means profit
00:17:34 <oerjan> ehird: you forgot ... PROFIT
00:17:44 <ehird> profit is useless; just live on irc.
00:17:49 <ehird> AnMaster: It's a game.
00:17:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Pokemon: That isn't how the real world works at all!
00:18:04 <AnMaster> clearly this is some way to try to make evolution look silly
00:18:09 <ehird> AnMaster: What, in Mario you can just jump several times your height then fly down really quickly.
00:18:13 <ehird> That's not how gravity works at all!
00:18:40 <AnMaster> it is a conspiracy from the intelligent design people...
00:19:02 <oerjan> AnMaster: i suppose "metamorphosis" is a better term
00:19:11 <AnMaster> ehird, difference: everyone agrees gravity exists. While a lot of people disagrees about evolution...
00:19:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Considering that creationists hate pokemon like the plague...
00:19:19 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes that would be better
00:19:19 <FireFly> What, in <insert tonnes of games here> you can jump in the air
00:19:23 <ehird> also, nobody knowledgable about the topic at all denies evolution
00:19:41 <AnMaster> I didn't imply scientists denied it
00:19:45 <ehird> AnMaster: yes. And the more rabid fundamentalist christians call it satanism/witchcraft etc taking creatures and battling them and evolving them and whatnot.
00:19:49 <AnMaster> a lot of fundamentalists do however
00:20:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, fundamentalists say a lot of stupid things.
00:20:11 <AnMaster> ehird, ok but that isn't the same sort of evolution at all...
00:20:27 <AnMaster> I mean the pokemon evolution seems silly
00:20:28 <ehird> It's just really fast evolution that happens in sprints.
00:20:39 <ehird> Just imagine an animal constantly breeding with itself then dying, so fast that you don't even see it happen.
00:20:42 <ehird> Then pokemon evolution makes sense.
00:20:49 <AnMaster> ehird I suppose the God of evolution is involved?
00:21:01 <ehird> FireFly: It's AnMaster!
00:21:12 <FireFly> AnMaster, have you seen Star Wars?
00:21:18 <ehird> AnMaster: no, just after a certain level they morph into a higher species.
00:21:21 <ehird> well, you can cancel it
00:21:30 <AnMaster> FireFly, yes I have, too much space opera for my taste
00:21:32 <ehird> FireFly: SPACE DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT DAMMIT
00:21:37 <ehird> THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS HYPERSPACE
00:21:50 <ehird> ALSO THE PROBABILITY OF EVERYONE SPEAKING ENGLISH IS SO VASTLY SMALL THAT—
00:21:56 <AnMaster> physically Star Trek is as bad
00:22:09 <ehird> what about psychically
00:22:10 <FireFly> Hitting stuff with light :D
00:22:53 <FireFly> This subject is quite dead now
00:22:59 <AnMaster> ehird, about speaking English, I think HHGTG solves that in a neat way
00:23:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes. Also known as a cop out.
00:23:32 <AnMaster> ehird, well the babelfish is a rather nice idea, and of course it isn't realistic
00:23:48 <ehird> "I know that astrology isn't a science," said Gail. "Of course it isn't.
00:23:48 <ehird> It's just an arbitrary set of rules like chess or tennis or, what's that
00:23:49 <ehird> strange thing you British play?'
00:23:51 <ehird> "Er, cricket? Self-loathing?"
00:23:53 <ehird> "Parliamentary democracy."
00:24:16 <AnMaster> ehird, does anyone understand the rules for cricket?
00:24:38 <ehird> AnMaster: I seem to recall seeing some black people winning some sort of tournament. :-P
00:24:41 <FireFly> You have a ball, hit some three poles and run around
00:24:48 <ehird> Can you tell I don't pay much attention to sport?
00:25:23 <AnMaster> FireFly, was there any obvious rules? Like watching football you can quick soon figure out the point is to get the ball into a net at the opposite end of the plane
00:25:45 <AnMaster> but from what I have seen of cricket it seems a bit more confusing
00:25:53 <ehird> The RSA shut down the factoring challenge.
00:26:03 <ehird> Guyz panic time nao
00:26:03 <FireFly> Like some odd variant of "brännboll"
00:26:11 <ehird> they've cracked it :D
00:26:28 <ehird> I was conspiracy theorizing
00:26:34 <FireFly> Hitting ball with bat, running arounb poles
00:26:40 <AnMaster> ehird, so did they find the number or?
00:26:51 <ehird> err it's nothing to do with finding numbers
00:26:53 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA_numbers
00:27:07 <AnMaster> FireFly, I don't know the rules of brännboll, it seemed rather confusing though
00:27:28 <AnMaster> it is? I have never been much for team sports
00:27:34 <FireFly> You get to play it all the time in school
00:27:42 <ehird> Brannboll? Basketball?
00:28:12 <ehird> "Brännboll (pronounced [ˈbrɛnbɔl]) is a game similar to rounders, baseball, lapta and pesäpallo"
00:28:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Anyway, us brits are actually truly awful at cricket. :P
00:29:16 <ehird> Pesäpallo [pesæpɑlːo] (Swedish: Boboll, also referred to as "Finnish baseball")
00:29:18 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesäpallo
00:29:39 <AnMaster> FireFly, and yes I know what bo means
00:29:45 <ehird> FireFly: is the ball autonomous? :P
00:29:54 <FireFly> Well, most likely ehird doesn't
00:30:10 <AnMaster> ehird, err not that living, living as in house, dwelling
00:30:20 <ehird> "who he is ;)" wut
00:30:32 <AnMaster> ehird, Bo is also a name in Swedish
00:30:57 <FireFly> We have lots of strange names
00:31:09 <FireFly> But I guess most languages has
00:31:22 <AnMaster> wasn't there some politician called Bo Lundgren? Or something
00:31:37 <FireFly> The.. leader of some party
00:31:53 <FireFly> I don't have to vote 'till next year
00:32:22 <AnMaster> never thought you were that young
00:32:29 <FireFly> "Bo Axel Magnus Lundgren (born July 11, 1947) is a Swedish politician. He is the former leader of the Moderate Party."
00:32:34 <ehird> FireFly's always seemed like a teen to me?
00:32:49 <AnMaster> ehird, more like 20 or so to me
00:32:53 <ehird> I don't ever have to vote :P
00:33:07 <ehird> ...but I _can_ in 3 years.
00:33:09 <AnMaster> FireFly, how old would you say I am? (ehird: don't tell him)
00:33:16 <FireFly> Well, I don't HAVE to, but I can
00:33:17 <pikhq> I vote 1,000 years.
00:33:18 * oerjan deports ehird to australia
00:33:38 <ehird> whoa, I can vote in 3 years.
00:33:44 <pikhq> As an aside, today is my 19th birthday...
00:33:45 <AnMaster> ehird, err 13 + 3 = 16. Can you vote when 16?!
00:33:54 <ehird> …err... I think so
00:33:58 <ehird> I don't pay much attention to that sort of stuff
00:34:01 <AnMaster> ehird, here in Sweden it is 18
00:34:02 <ehird> It might be 18 or something
00:34:16 <ehird> But adulthood is 16 in the UK i think
00:34:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I hope it is 18, or I'm scared about UK
00:34:41 <ehird> 16 is when you can have sex and drink and stuff :P
00:34:53 <ehird> Okay, so I can vote in 5 years; that's a little less scary
00:34:56 <FireFly> 13 year old people shouldn't be doing J stuff :\
00:35:05 <ehird> FireFly: yeah dirty J
00:35:06 <AnMaster> ehird, drink is 21 here I think
00:35:10 <ehird> only consenting adults should be allowed to program in J
00:35:28 <ehird> AnMaster: you should be scared about the UK anyway; considering we're heading to a nanny state
00:35:46 <ehird> The age of consent for girls in Japan is 13; don't ask me how I know this.
00:35:59 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't like you are alone. I'm too busy being scared about FRA and IPRED and such here
00:36:07 <AnMaster> don't have time to be scared about UK
00:36:14 <FireFly> Drinking.. It's 21 for buying (IIRC), but 18 for drinking in retaurants
00:36:27 <AnMaster> FireFly, I see. I haven't done either yet anyway
00:36:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Does your govt take 1984 as an instruction manual?
00:36:51 <AnMaster> ehird, a lot of this is from EU level, so pretty much the same here I'm afraid
00:37:38 <ehird> Clearly the solution is to vote for the BNP. Err, maybe not.
00:37:59 <ehird> AnMaster: British National Party.
00:38:17 <ehird> White-nationalist fascists.
00:38:21 <ehird> They don't come much worse.
00:38:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: GNP in english
00:38:41 <AnMaster> what does it stand for in English?
00:38:42 <ehird> And, by the way, they're quite popular.
00:38:55 <ehird> "In the 2005 UK general election, the BNP received 0.7% of the popular vote, giving it the eighth largest share of the vote, although it was fifth overall among English seats."
00:39:01 <ehird> "also finishing fifth in the 2008 London mayoral election with 5.23% of the popular vote, as well as electing Mayoral candidate Richard Barnbrook to the Greater London Assembly"
00:39:04 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the the thing you measure how rich a country is per capita?
00:39:11 <ehird> the BNP is "committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948.
00:39:19 <ehird> AnMaster: Gross national product; GNP
00:39:29 <AnMaster> ehird, in Swedish we call that BNP
00:39:34 <ehird> "It advocates the repeal of all anti-discrimination legislation, and restricts party membership to "indigenous British ethnic groups deriving from the class of ‘Indigenous Caucasian’"."
00:39:48 <ehird> "Its publicity has often conflated Islam with Marxism."
00:40:42 <ehird> I'd laugh if it wasn't serious.
00:41:00 <ehird> "The party supports animal welfare and environmental policies, supporting Greenpeace in its fight against Japanese whaling ships and the RSPCA's campaign against the docking of dogs' tails."
00:41:07 <ehird> Are they trying to appear humane or something?
00:41:11 <AnMaster> sounds somewhat like Sverigedemokraterna (a similar party here in Sweden, name means "Swedish democrats", nothing like that....)
00:41:27 <ehird> [[When asked in 1993 if the BNP was racist, its deputy leader Richard Edmonds said, "We are 100 per cent racist, yes".[94] Founder John Tyndall proclaimed that "Mein Kampf is my bible".]]
00:41:35 <ehird> Mein fucking Kampf.
00:41:49 <ehird> It's like a parody that someone forgot was a joke.
00:42:05 <ehird> "is a Swedish political party that describes itself as a nationalist movement which opposes all forms of racism. "
00:42:17 <AnMaster> ehird, huh... Is it "per cent" or "percent" in English?
00:42:22 <ehird> FireFly: The BNP? Yes.
00:42:26 <ehird> AnMaster: either. Latter is more common.
00:42:44 <FireFly> the former feels more british
00:43:14 <AnMaster> ehird, <ehird> "is a Swedish political party that describes itself as a nationalist movement which opposes all forms of racism. " <-- that is what they say, they are racists though...
00:43:20 <ehird> The British fall into three categories: grumpy and self-hating, hateful fucks and smug assholes.
00:43:43 <AnMaster> what about the good old jolly chaps?
00:43:50 <ehird> AnMaster: They went extinct.
00:43:58 <AnMaster> ehird, oh I see. When did that happen?
00:44:03 <ehird> FireFly: Probably the latter. :P
00:44:15 <ehird> AnMaster: It's arguable whether they ever existed.
00:44:16 <ehird> [[Ellis called the BNP "a bit too socialist" for his liking]]
00:44:24 <AnMaster> FireFly, ehird is definitely not the first one..
00:44:30 <AnMaster> not sure about the two latter ones
00:45:15 <ehird> FireFly: Didn't you learn anything?
00:45:18 <ehird> That removes IRC time.
00:45:28 <FireFly> But it DOES improve grades
00:45:41 <ehird> Grades only contribute to less IRC!
00:45:57 <FireFly> Physics, programming, lunch, stuff
00:46:13 <FireFly> Chemics.. What is it called in english? :\
00:47:06 <FireFly> >_______________________ [...] ____>
00:47:14 <ehird> >_______________________ [...] ____>
00:47:37 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
00:47:45 <ehird> 23:47 oklofok has left IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
00:48:14 <AnMaster> ehird, said connection reset by peer here... freenode is buggy
00:48:17 <oerjan> and a great loss to irckind
00:48:51 <ehird> you know what woudl be cool.
00:48:58 <AnMaster> (to quote erlang when net_adm:ping() fails)
00:49:10 * AnMaster always found the "pang" reply funny
00:49:18 <ehird> the correct one is
00:49:28 <ehird> ping, pong, aiotjaeintioa
00:49:39 <FireFly> [00:48:55] <ehird> you know what woudl be cool.
00:49:47 <AnMaster> ehird, "pang" is the sound of a gun shot in Swedish (as written)
00:49:47 <oerjan> the latter being an ancient polynesian curse
00:50:28 <ehird> Twisted Russian Roulette: The other 5 cartridges make a sign saying "BANG!" pop out.
00:50:32 <FireFly> "bom" is more like "boom", I guess
00:50:55 <ehird> AnMaster: no, the 6th contains a real bullet/
00:51:15 <AnMaster> I have seen it on irc, where it was replaced with kick
00:51:31 <AnMaster> a supybot with loads of addons I think
00:51:32 <FireFly> One bullet, 5 signs saying "Try again"
00:51:39 <ehird> trazer is one huge java class
00:51:40 <AnMaster> ehird, probably had all modules loaded
00:51:53 <ehird> AnMaster: yeah no other classes
00:51:56 <ehird> just one big honking class
00:51:59 <ehird> presumably with like 5 methods
00:52:09 <AnMaster> ehird, someone forced to use a class because java is OO?
00:52:12 <ehird> i know this because oklopol told me :-D
00:52:24 <ehird> AnMaster: no, probably someone who isn't too good at programming but knows java :P
00:52:47 <AnMaster> ehird, sure it wasn't someone trying to do imperative in java?
00:53:05 <ehird> fairly sure because I've talked to the guy and he's not that type :P
00:53:38 <oerjan> it's imperative that your objects are functional
00:54:02 <FireFly> "This is available for a variety of operating systems like Linux,[2] BSD, Mac OS X,[3] Xbox,[4] and BeOS."
00:54:42 * FireFly should sleep, but then ehird kills said person
00:55:18 <AnMaster> ah yes /usr/games/bin/VisualBoyAdvance indeed
00:55:50 <AnMaster> FireFly, VBA == Visual Basic for MS Office to me
00:56:05 <oerjan> AnMaster: but was it functional?
00:56:21 <AnMaster> FireFly, I only ever seen it for word/excel macros?
00:56:24 <FireFly> "Visual Basic for Applications, the application edition of Microsoft's Visual Basic programming language."
00:57:00 <AnMaster> FireFly, isn't that a third one
00:57:04 <oerjan> AnMaster: are you sure you are being objective about this?
00:57:15 <AnMaster> oerjan, now that one was slightly better
00:57:33 <AnMaster> FireFly, well yes Basic is ugly
00:57:58 <FireFly> At least with TI-BASIC it feels esoish
00:57:59 <AnMaster> I have seen VBA I know it is worse
00:58:07 <AnMaster> FireFly, TI-BASIC is pretty nice
00:58:14 <AnMaster> at least the way done on TI-83+
00:58:22 <AnMaster> doesn't feel much like basic at all
00:58:25 <FireFly> Though the TI-82 stats is slooow
00:58:50 <FireFly> IIRC it was a bit worse than the GBO, in most aspects
00:59:51 <AnMaster> FireFly, hey you were supposed to get the joke...
01:00:19 <FireFly> Why was i thinking about the gun thingy brand before associating it to the Ice cream?
01:00:25 <AnMaster> FireFly, also what does GameBoy have to do with TI-82?
01:00:45 <AnMaster> I would think about icecream first
01:00:46 <FireFly> It's from 1980, it's supposed to suck
01:01:16 <FireFly> I guess I'll have to learn ASM
01:01:21 <AnMaster> FireFly, a game boy and a TI-82 are not the same sort of things, One you play games on, the other you calculate things on
01:01:34 <AnMaster> FireFly, which is best, that book or this chair?
01:01:42 <ehird> they're both computers.
01:01:57 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, which is best: this chair or that table?
01:02:09 <ehird> That's not a good comparison, AnMaster
01:02:15 <FireFly> That's like saying a cellphone isn't the same as a camera
01:02:19 <AnMaster> ehird, nor is gameboy to a calculator
01:02:25 <AnMaster> FireFly, they aren't the same...
01:02:31 <FireFly> Even if it in fact is, to a certain degree
01:02:54 <ehird> So, I tried to come up with an elegant way to unify shell syntax.
01:02:56 <FireFly> Many cellphones are of higher quality than my camera
01:02:57 <AnMaster> FireFly, some cellphones does have cameras built in nowdays yes...
01:03:02 <ehird> AnMaster: all, not some
01:03:08 <ehird> I came up with a nice way
01:03:15 <ehird> It made these two snippets identical:
01:03:34 <ehird> and it unified function definition and aliases
01:03:42 <AnMaster> ehird, No I remember reading recently about some heavy duty one (as in they ran it over with a truck and it still worked) with no camera or such
01:03:44 <ehird> And let you do things like this:
01:03:53 <AnMaster> actually it must have been on radio, some tech program
01:04:00 <ehird> find . -exec {x| echo $x; rm $x} \{\} \;
01:04:01 <AnMaster> comparing some heavy duty phones
01:04:07 <AnMaster> including running over them with trucks
01:04:36 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: all, not some
01:04:51 <ehird> fuck offfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff; corner cases are irrelevant 99% of the time
01:04:52 <AnMaster> "most, not some" would have been better
01:04:55 <ehird> that's why they're corner. cases.
01:05:00 <ehird> "all" does not mean strictly every single on
01:05:04 <AnMaster> ehird, correctness is more important than simpleness
01:05:15 <ehird> …if you're a douchebag.
01:05:17 <AnMaster> don't follow the worse is better design
01:05:26 <FireFly> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-vba-163.html
01:05:48 <FireFly> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-vbscript-801.html
01:06:50 <AnMaster> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-erlang-1482.html <-- beautiful
01:06:59 <ehird> that is not beautiful
01:07:11 <AnMaster> ehird, beautiful and concurrent!
01:07:25 <ehird> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-haskell-1613.html
01:07:26 <ehird> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-haskell-1070.html
01:07:30 <ehird> those are beautiful.
01:07:35 <ehird> in syntax and concept
01:07:44 <AnMaster> ehird, they are rather nice yes, but are they concurrent? NO
01:07:54 <ehird> AnMaster: You can implement haskell concurrently
01:07:59 <ehird> with no declarations
01:08:05 <ehird> there's nothing in the standard forbidding it
01:08:13 <AnMaster> ehird, that one http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-erlang-1031.html ?
01:08:28 <FireFly> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-whitespace-154.html
01:08:31 <ehird> it's purely functional; you can automatically memoize functions, parallelize expressions, ...
01:08:34 <FireFly> "Highlight it, and you can see cool patterns"
01:08:40 <ehird> and no, it's not simple and clean compared to the haskell one
01:09:18 <Asztal_> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-fjoelnir-259.html
01:09:26 <ehird> Asztal_: "GRUNNUR"
01:10:43 <AnMaster> <Asztal_> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-fjoelnir-259.html <-- wow
01:10:47 <FireFly> "[99,98..0]" <-- THAT is nice
01:10:51 <ehird> AnMaster: "GRUNNUR".
01:11:25 <ehird> Yes, well, "GRUNNUR" anyway.
01:12:06 <Asztal_> that's about as much Icelandic as I speak.
01:12:21 <ehird> Asztal_: you forgot "GRUNNUR".
01:12:49 <Asztal_> I said "that is good", I think. "GRUNNUR" means "BASE" or something like that, it's a module name
01:13:03 <ehird> I know what "GRUNNUR" means.
01:13:07 <ehird> But it's still "GRUNNUR".
01:13:33 <FireFly> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-befunge-88.html
01:13:36 <Asztal_> http://www.hi.is/~snorri/087133-03/fjolnir.pdf <- one day, I will translate this.
01:13:47 <AnMaster> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-j-1.html
01:13:57 <ehird> Asztal_: That may be the only text better than SICP.
01:14:05 <AnMaster> FireFly, oh yes, much nicer than the haskell one
01:14:52 <AnMaster> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-befunge-1602.html <-- err heh
01:15:53 <ehird> Asztal_: you should XOR all the letters in it with SICP.
01:16:02 <ehird> And produce an impossible book.
01:17:26 <FireFly> It's only past midnight in Britain :(
01:19:22 <AnMaster> ehird, http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-apple-script-32.html
01:19:28 <AnMaster> that is why apple script sucks
01:19:41 <Asztal_> oerjan: does Icelandic vaguely make sense to you, with it being so close to Norwegian?
01:19:47 <ehird> AnMaster: I never said I like applescript.
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01:20:29 <AnMaster> ehird, I still thinks it is the most horrible non-esolang out there apart from possibly COBOL
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01:21:26 <AnMaster> Asztal_, Islandic is very different from other Scandinavian languages in fact. The place have been a lot more isolated, thus the language developed in a different directly
01:21:31 <ehird> It's right-to-left associative infix, but OP~ reverses the argument order.
01:21:41 <zzo38> Do you like my specification for vectoring in INTERCAL?
01:22:26 <AnMaster> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-apl-715.html <-- random garbage?
01:22:36 <ehird> AnMaster: get fonts.
01:22:41 <ehird> also maybe wron gencoding
01:23:25 <zzo38> You can also look at the comments on that beer program, for better lisibility
01:24:21 <zzo38> But I defined the VECTOR operator now, which is used for doing some weird kind of vector computing (not quite)
01:24:38 <zzo38> I also defined the commands for dynamically writing the source-codes
01:25:21 <AnMaster> zzo38, couldn't this be done with CREATE?
01:26:08 <zzo38> CREATE is used to modify the compiler that compiles source-code into byte-code. But the APPEND is used to add source-code to the end, which is then compiled.
01:26:23 <AnMaster> zzo38, I meant ick style CREATE
01:27:13 <zzo38> CLCLC-INTERCAL doesn't use ick style create except in compatibility mode, so you need new commands and operators if you want to use it outside of compatibility mode
01:27:32 <AnMaster> zzo38, I have ick here but not CLC
01:27:50 <zzo38> You can still access the manual for CLC even if you don't have it.
01:27:54 <AnMaster> zzo38, any chance of seeing an IFFI for CLCLC? :D
01:28:28 <AnMaster> zzo38, ais523's ick<->befunge thingy
01:28:41 <AnMaster> IFFI is the name of the fingerprint on the befunge side
01:28:54 <AnMaster> the only current implementation is for ick and cfunge
01:29:06 <AnMaster> but it could be done between other implementations too I guess
01:29:15 <AnMaster> it uses the link in C code thingy of ick
01:29:49 <AnMaster> but it should be possible to do it against other befunge and INTERCAL implementations
01:30:34 <AnMaster> zzo38, btw I'm the maintainer of cfunge in case you try it and run into issues with that part. (also time to release the next version soon, probably next week or so)
01:30:50 <AnMaster> (need to merge in some experimental branches)
01:30:55 <zzo38> But someone suggested making some weird vector computing in CLCLC-INTERCAL, so I wrote that part of the specification now. Do you like the way I have done it?
01:31:07 <AnMaster> zzo38, it is rather intercalish
01:31:29 <ehird> a raytracer in j would be awesome
01:31:48 <AnMaster> zzo38, and I suspect you now INTERCAL way better than I do. (I only know it on the surface and have trouble reading programs in it)
01:31:51 <zzo38> It certainly is rather intercalish!
01:32:03 <AnMaster> zzo38, I'm not sure how it works though
01:32:20 <zzo38> If you have a specific question please ask!
01:32:45 <AnMaster> zzo38, is it somewhat like the zip operation or more like fold?
01:33:41 <ehird> zzo38: have you ever programmed in J? I think you'd like it. http://jsoftware.com/
01:33:47 <zzo38> I guess you could use it to zip or fold or zipfold, but that isn't what the operator does on its own
01:33:50 <ehird> it's an APL descendent based on vector/matrix operations
01:33:53 <ehird> with really short code
01:34:02 <ehird> you could get some ideas for the vector intercal from it; it's pretty esoteric
01:34:06 <AnMaster> ehird, where does one get a free implementation of it?
01:34:14 <ehird> AnMaster: http://jsoftware.com/stable.htm
01:34:20 <ehird> It's not open source, but meh.
01:35:52 <AnMaster> "If used in an expression on the left side of a WHILE statement, it will execute the WHILE statement for each pair of one element from the left array and one element from the right array."
01:36:17 <AnMaster> does this mean: (a b c) (1 2 3) -> (a 1) (b 2) (c 3)?
01:36:29 <zzo38> Yes, and the .# special register is an error if the indices are not the same.
01:36:33 <AnMaster> does this mean: (a b c) (1 2 3) -> (a 1) (a 2) (a 3) (b 1) (b 2) ...
01:36:58 <zzo38> But what are the best words to make that clear?
01:37:43 <FireFly> Taking mistabcompleting to a new level
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01:38:20 <AnMaster> zzo38, so it combines the list in all possible ways?
01:38:40 <AnMaster> without caring about order possibly
01:39:13 <zzo38> Yes, it combines the list in all possible ways. The #0 index corresponds to the current element, while .# is a number of the current index but only if both indices are the same. Otherwise it is an error.
01:39:40 <zzo38> It does it in the proper order given. So reversing the operands will change the order a bit
01:40:15 <zzo38> I gave four examples and told you which ones are errors
01:40:16 <AnMaster> zzo38, would the example (a b c) (1 2 3) -> (a 1) (a 2) (a 3) (b 1) (b 2) ... include (1 b) (1 c) and such as well?
01:42:01 <zzo38> For example you could have DO .1 <- ',1 SUB #0'~',2 SUB #0' DO READ OUT .1
01:42:07 <ehird> How to allow division by zero: disallow multiplication by zero.
01:42:17 <zzo38> That would output the result of selecting from each possible pair.
01:43:03 <AnMaster> zzo38, didn't you forget VECTOR in there?
01:43:28 <AnMaster> or was that not supposed to be a VECTOR example?
01:43:30 <zzo38> The commands I listed have to be part of a subroutine called with VECTOR. Otherwise ,1 SUB #0 is an error.
01:43:44 <ehird> zzo38: You should post CLCLC-INTERCAL to alt.lang.intercal; most/all intercal programmers read it
01:44:19 <AnMaster> ehird, hm how would that work with division by zero?
01:44:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, you can't check if the result is right, so people have to trust whatever you say the result is :P
01:45:17 <AnMaster> interesting, I just found out that TI-83+ evaluates while it parses
01:45:23 <zzo38> And you could also have DO .# WHILE ,1 SUB #0 <- ',1 SUB .#'~',2 SUB ".#~#45"'
01:45:34 <AnMaster> gave division by zero instead of syntax error
01:46:05 <AnMaster> zzo38, err? too tired to work that out
01:46:39 <ehird> zzo38: did you read what i said about j?
01:46:47 <zzo38> Still you have to use the DO .# etc also inside of a subroutine called using VECTOR operator.
01:47:07 <zzo38> Yes I read it and maybe I will look more later, but not right now.
01:47:25 <AnMaster> hm does INTERCAL have a COME TO yet?
01:47:47 <ehird> if it doesn't, it must be invented, and "COME TO YOUR SENSES" must work.
01:48:30 <AnMaster> GO FROM _ PASSING _ ON YOUR WAY TO _
01:48:49 <ehird> GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL DO NOT COLLECT 200 POUNDS
01:48:50 <AnMaster> for multi jump non-local control transfer
01:48:51 <zzo38> OK, what does GO FROM _ PASSING _ ON YOUR WAY TO _ command do?
01:48:57 <ehird> err, I missed do not pass go
01:49:37 <zzo38> And I fixed a mistake in my specification, the two sides of VECTOR do not have to be the same data-type but they must point to two different arrays.
01:49:56 <AnMaster> zzo38, GO FROM 12 PASSING 15 ON YOUR WAY TO 23 would be like COME FROM 12, then executing line 15 and then jumping to line 23.
01:50:14 <AnMaster> but it could be written anywhere in the program
01:50:16 <ehird> you can do that already
01:50:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what if you use this to modify inside syslib to create a debug hook
01:50:49 <ehird> you can you already do what you asy
01:50:52 <ehird> it's just shorthand
01:50:54 <AnMaster> that executes a line to print a debug message
01:50:57 <zzo38> Of course you can do that already, and if you want the syntax you have to define it yourself using CREATE
01:51:41 <Asztal_> GO FROM 12 PASSING 15 ON YOUR WAY TO 23: Come from 12, make multiple copies of the universe, jumping to a random label in each, until one of them passes 15 and gets to 23, then destroy the rest :)
01:51:45 <zzo38> The reason the arrays in VECTOR can be different type is in case you want to use the () array in a vector calculator
01:51:57 <AnMaster> <ehird> GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL DO NOT COLLECT 200 POUNDS <-- COME DIRECTLY FROM JAIL DO COLLECT 90.7 kg
01:52:25 <ehird> AnMaster: reference fail ;_;
01:52:34 <Asztal_> of course, jumping to a random label is probably pretty useless, especially if you include syslib.i...
01:52:40 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I know about monopoly
01:53:27 <AnMaster> ehird, of course I know about the game monopoly... do you think I'm living under a rock or something?
01:53:51 <AnMaster> ehird, no, just a stone, not a rock
01:54:49 <AnMaster> zzo38, crazy idea: i18n and l10n for intercal
01:55:11 <AnMaster> all user interface would still be as now
01:55:44 <zzo38> OK. The way to do it is to create a file that uses CREATE and CREMATE/DESTROY in order to change the words used into Klingon instead of English
01:56:22 <AnMaster> zzo38, would that work for non-ASCII scripts?
01:56:39 <ehird> q: 1872389457344365238764523486521345
01:56:39 <ehird> 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2
01:56:43 <ehird> (prime factors function)
01:56:56 <ehird> AnMaster: klingon is in ascii now/
01:57:05 <zzo38> It works for EBCDIC only, even if the source-code is ASCII.
01:57:13 <ehird> 00:55 zzo38: OK. The way to do it is to create a file that uses CREATE and CREMATE/DESTROY in order to change the words used into Klingon instead of English
01:57:14 <ehird> 00:56 AnMaster: zzo38, would that work for non-ASCII scripts?
01:57:57 <AnMaster> zzo38, I don't think Swedish ÅÄÖåäö exists in EBCDIC. So that wouldn't just work in that case
01:58:27 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-EBCDIC
01:58:54 <zzo38> I guess you can use UTF-EBCDIC, even if the source-code is in normal Unicode. But CREATE uses EBCDIC numbers for syntax, not ASCII numbers, even if the source-code file isn't EBCDIC.
01:59:35 <AnMaster> zzo38, bottom line: how would it work out for Swedish åäö and ÅÄÖ?
02:00:27 <zzo38> Yes that UTF-EBCDIC would work if the compiler supported UTF-EBCDIC, the only thing is that the single-byte part will use the CLC non-standard EBCDIC instead. But the rest can still be the same as normal UTF-EBCDIC
02:01:22 <zzo38> It should work OK if the compiler supports it
02:02:12 <AnMaster> zzo38, haven't come up with anything for front tracking yet?
02:02:46 <AnMaster> also I think it should be one word like either backtracking/fronttracking of back-tracking/front-tracking
02:03:03 <zzo38> Not yet, but I am thinking about it. I read some of the ideas and am thinking about those things as well for front-tracking. But whatever is decided, the LIFE register will be for front-tracking what the CHOICE register is for back-tracking.
02:03:04 <AnMaster> but ehird may have some good language reason to suggest otherwise
02:03:04 <ehird> I specified front tracking
02:03:06 <ehird> we all agreed it was good
02:03:32 <AnMaster> ehird, nothing at http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CLCLC-INTERCAL#Front-tracking yet
02:03:39 <ehird> yeah well read the logs :D
02:04:10 <AnMaster> zzo38, what is atomic intercal about?
02:04:25 <AnMaster> concurrency or as opposed to quantum one?
02:04:41 <zzo38> Something I found on the newsgroup, I think. They didn't describe it very well either.
02:05:01 <AnMaster> zzo38, what would it mean roughly?
02:06:33 <zzo38> I guess atomic intercal would be something like http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/browse_thread/thread/ed3506f631c7a0ef/9066b786b791bed2?hl=en&q=atomic+intercal#9066b786b791bed2 (but not completely like that, I will base it on that though)
02:08:49 <AnMaster> zzo38, ah so it isn't related to atomic like Compare and Swap, Fetch and Add and such then?
02:08:51 <zzo38> Another message about atomic INTERCAL is at http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/browse_thread/thread/e34f20de1880b81b/5a50f350727415a6?hl=en&q=atomic+intercal#5a50f350727415a6 (and I will base it partly on that as well)
02:09:08 <zzo38> It isn't related to that.
02:09:47 <zzo38> Of course I can make some combination of the two proposals, but not quite.
02:10:40 <ehird> http://femto.picoup.com/
02:10:45 <zzo38> The first two results of http://groups.google.com/groups/search?hl=en&q=atomic+intercal&qt_s=Search+Groups describe atomic INTERCAL, but in different ways.
02:13:05 <zzo38> What's http://femto.picoup.com/ that doesn't make much sense it tell me the username it already has is invalid because it is too long, what?
02:13:46 <Asztal_> the user accounts are shared between that and the main site, picoup.com.
02:13:56 <ehird> zzo38: it's a twitter clone except you can only use one letter
02:14:14 <zzo38> And snidewards is based on something from this IRC channel, someone suggested what snidewards should mean
02:14:48 <zzo38> Using only one letter, can kanji or katakana be used though?
02:15:43 <ehird> http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/3980319.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1237858432&Signature=5RCJ9YMQiLmBaU%2FwdAY%2F0d%2FmmQw%3D
02:15:57 <AnMaster> ehird, http://femto.picoup.com/ is insane
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02:33:11 <lament> that's like saying 'a' is English.
02:33:45 <kerlo> So it's not exclusively Japanese, like I thought.
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02:34:57 <lament> very few kanjis are exclusively japanese
02:35:17 <lament> iirc there're some that went out of use in Chinese, and a couple that were actually invented in Japan
02:35:51 <lament> oh, apparently "hundreds" rather than "couple"
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02:40:35 <kerlo> 好 looks like it has two halves.
02:40:59 <lament> they're both pictograms - a woman on the left, a baby on the right.
02:41:38 <lament> obviously, the character means "good" :)
02:42:13 <kerlo> So the Chinese character set is pro-life?
02:42:39 <kerlo> Is one of those halves a radical?
02:43:22 <lament> also both are characters on their own: -!- 40 - #not-math: ban %*!*@host86-175-32-*.wlms-broadband.com [by thermoplyae!i=thermo@cohomology.org, 1223818 secs ago]
02:43:31 <lament> that's not a character :)
02:44:26 <kerlo> lament keeps trying to speak Chinese, but e keeps ending up banning people instead.
02:48:47 * kerlo frowns at screen's Unicode boochery.
02:49:40 <kerlo> It still doesn't work.
02:49:57 <kerlo> If UTF-8 is as good as utf-8, I have that set.
02:50:29 * kerlo sets it to utf-8 for the sake of...
02:50:40 <kerlo> There, it's utf-8 now.
02:50:51 <Asztal__> I'm not entirely sure what the second parameter is.
02:50:53 <lament> chinese characters with pictographic explanations are really neat
02:51:02 <lament> like 安 "peace" : woman under a roof
02:51:05 <kerlo> I set that. Nothing happened.
02:51:30 <kerlo> I did have :utf8 set before.
02:52:24 <lament> then perhaps it's your terminal that's at fault.
02:52:57 <kerlo> With my lŭck, the Eŝperanto charaĉters won't display properly eitĥer, despite the fact that they were not long ago.
02:53:23 <kerlo> Yep, broken. I don't know why screen behaves inconsistently.
02:53:29 <kerlo> But eliminating screen from the chain fixes the problem.
02:53:35 <lament> aw. If it's any consolation, I see them fine.
02:53:42 <kerlo> I'm aware of that.
02:53:48 <Asztal__> screen -U only works when starting the screen, btw.
02:54:11 <kerlo> So screen -U -d -r may not work as well as it could?
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02:54:46 <kerlo> I'll go ahead and try restarting irssi.
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02:55:36 <kerlo> This is screen -U, detached and reattached with screen -U -d -r.
02:57:21 <kerlo> Many-circumflex test: âĉêĝĥîĵôŝûŵŷẑ
02:57:29 <kerlo> Both those displayed right, I think.
02:57:48 <kerlo> The one on the right is the same woman-baby character; the one on the left is a radical to the left of something else.
03:02:22 <kerlo> I guess the one on the left is composed of radicals 9, 42 and 14.
03:02:39 <lament> i didn't realize the radicals were numbered.
03:02:58 <kerlo> You mean the numbers aren't obvious from the shapes?
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15:32:41 <tombom> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Useful! http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Maxsteele2 this seems kind of pointless
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17:03:16 <ehird> 07:32:41 <tombom> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Useful! http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Maxsteele2 this seems kind of pointless
17:03:53 * ehird continues drafting shell language
17:05:12 <ehird> 18:40:59 <lament> they're both pictograms - a woman on the left, a baby on the right.
17:05:12 <ehird> 18:41:38 <lament> obviously, the character means "good" :)
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17:08:31 <ehird> "Or even how to implement Haskell's ap/<*> (translated painstakingly to Java) in terms of fmap, return, and join (this is legally considered torture in 49 states)"
17:28:16 <ehird> "Haskell's purity reminds me of lemon juice: you need to add lots of water, sugar and ice to make refreshing lemonade." —Guido van Rossum
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17:35:59 <ehird> http://vimeo.com/3753964 <-- this is awesome
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17:43:17 <ehird> "Hello, world!" is common among great programmers.
17:43:29 <ehird> "Paula Bean is brillant^U Hello, <my name>!" is common among bad programmers.
17:43:40 <ehird> Therefore, good programmers are altruists.
17:48:08 <ais523> err, does ^ match a control-U?
17:48:22 <ehird> ais523: Control-U deletes up to the start of line.
17:48:27 <ehird> Try it in your terminal.
17:48:40 <ehird> Opposite of control-k.
17:48:56 <ais523> it's probably a readline thing, rather than a terminal thing, though
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17:55:41 <ehird> Oh. It's Ada Lovelace day.
17:56:16 <ehird> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/659752/programming-challenge-can-you-code-a-hello-world-program-as-a-palindrome <-- Hooray, shitty brainfuck answer.
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17:58:08 <zzo38> I only use the term "a language that shall not be named" in speech, it seems silly to use it in writing.
17:58:22 <ehird> zzo38: people are afraid of saying 'fuck'
17:58:29 <ais523> zzo38: does IRC count as speech or writing?
17:58:38 <zzo38> IRC counts as writing.
17:58:43 <ais523> also, can't you just bowdlerise it to B****fuck?
17:59:34 <zzo38> You can bowdlerise it to "B****fuck", "Brainf***", "B****f***", or whatever you want, in writing, but in writing I prefer to use the proper word "Brainfuck".
17:59:36 <ehird> I seem to remember asking people to bowlderise my brainfuck compiler "Frainbuck" as "F****buck"
18:00:18 <ehird> Valid is subjective - maybe 'valid' to cobbal is 'compiles, runs, and produces expected output' – Erik (Mar 19 at 0:22)
18:00:21 <ehird> Valid is subjective?
18:00:27 <ehird> Have these people read the C standard?
18:00:45 <zzo38> I also consider leaving a voice-message in morse code as being close enough to writing as well, even though it isn't.
18:01:06 <ais523> ehird: yes, the C standard doesn't define "valid"
18:01:13 <ehird> well, it defines what a c program is
18:01:14 <ais523> it defines "conforming", and "strictly conforming"
18:01:22 <ais523> conforming = runs on at least one C implementation
18:01:33 <ais523> strictly conforming = runs on all strictly conforming C implementations
18:01:39 <ehird> the OhCrap c compiler: Try gcc. If that fails, run perl.
18:01:47 <ehird> All perl programs are now conforming C programs
18:01:48 <ais523> so to be conforming, you just mustn't do anything that's strictly banned in C
18:02:04 <ais523> ehird: not if they started #error "This is not a conforming C program"
18:02:05 <ehird> after all, a c implementation can be other things too at the same time
18:02:08 <ehird> ais523: well, true
18:02:17 <ais523> amusingly, #error is the only thing actually guaranteed to screw up your program in C
18:02:22 <ais523> anything else can be treated as an extension
18:03:08 <ehird> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/659752/programming-challenge-can-you-code-a-hello-world-program-as-a-palindrome/661121#661121
18:03:37 <ais523> print "Hello, world!\n" # "n\!dlrow ,olleH" tnirp
18:04:01 <ais523> although that linked program is impressive
18:04:30 <ais523> oh, if they're adding a no-comments rule, use a string literal or something instead of comments
18:05:04 <zzo38> And it seems that in FlogScript a palindrome "Hello World" program can be written {Hello World}P.P}dlroW olleH{ but I don't know whether or not it would be cheating
18:06:41 <ais523> oh, I can do it in one byte in HQ9+
18:06:59 <ais523_> there are BF and Befunge examples already on the thread
18:07:18 <zzo38> Well ya that's because HQ9+ is designed for making those three kinds of programs in 1 byte. It is not meant for anything else
18:07:49 <ais523> oh, someone did the HQ9+ already
18:09:51 <zzo38> You can probably do it in Forth also because you can redefine words after they are used to not output anything or be a error
18:10:52 <ehird> I almost have a nice one
18:11:39 <zzo38> What program language?
18:11:52 <ehird> Ruby; it has some syntactic sugar which helps for this
18:12:10 <ehird> the code that actually outputs hello world:
18:12:10 <ehird> :Hello.display&?,.chr.display&?\s.chr.display&:world.display&?!.chr.display&?\n.chr.display
18:12:50 <ais523> Deewiant: well, obviously
18:12:57 <zzo38> And in goruby I also think it is 1 byte and therefore a palindrome
18:12:58 <Deewiant> And any other interpreted language which doesn't do any static checking
18:13:05 <ais523> the problem is to tell if anything in particular in a befunge program is a comment or not
18:13:09 <Deewiant> (I don't know how many such languages there actually are)
18:13:21 <zzo38> goruby is some Japanese stuff.
18:13:33 <Deewiant> Hmm, so if we said that we have to execute the whole thing...
18:13:42 <ehird> ruby is some japanese stuff
18:13:50 <ehird> goruby is just a weird ruby addon that for some reason is in the ruby 1.9 core
18:14:01 <ehird> I think it's used for anarchy golf and nothing else
18:14:32 <ehird> yalpsid.rhc.n\\?&yalpsid.rhc.!?&yalpsid.dlrow:&yalpsid.rhc.s\\?&yalpsid.rhc.,?&yalpsid.olleH:"
18:14:35 <ehird> that .n\ is invalid
18:14:45 <zzo38> Searching goruby on Google results in Japanese stuff. Luckily I have Japanese fonts on my computer
18:14:45 <ais523> the problem doesn't ask for a newline
18:14:51 <ehird> the !? is invalid, but ?& is valid, but the yalpsid after isn't valid
18:14:54 <ais523> it wants you to print exactly Hello, World
18:14:56 <ehird> ais523: the s\\ has the same problem
18:15:08 <ehird> most of the current solutions print the newline
18:15:54 <ehird> "I'm pretty sure it's actually a palindrome. What's the easiest way to check?'
18:16:06 <ehird> oh Stack Overflow...
18:16:09 <zzo38> And stuff about FlogScript can also be found in Japanese at http://b.hatena.ne.jp/yshl/20080407
18:16:16 <Deewiant> a"!dlrow olleH"bk,,kb"Hello world!"a@ <- whole thing is executed
18:16:27 <ais523> looking through GolfScript, it can clearly be beaten
18:16:33 <ais523> Deewiant: what's doing the printing there?
18:16:34 <ehird> zzo38: yshl is one of the anarchy golf players
18:17:12 <zzo38> Then why haven't they added FlogScript to anarchy golf yet?
18:17:13 <ais523> also, is that palindromic?
18:17:18 <ais523> you have a @ at the end but not the start
18:17:32 <ehird> 1!:2&2['Hello, World'['dlroW ,olleH'[2&2:!1
18:17:35 <Deewiant> Hmm, that might make it a bit tricky actually
18:17:36 <ehird> that's awesome, actually.
18:17:40 <zzo38> I understand a few things in Japanese, such as mahjong, and I like to read Japanese Akagi manga
18:17:40 <ehird> as in the k operator
18:17:50 <ehird> zzo38: shinh speaks english as far as I know
18:17:56 <zzo38> I tried to ask shinh before but I got no reply
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18:23:11 <zzo38> And how many of you people understand any amount of Japanese at all anyways
18:23:17 <ehird> pikhq knows some, iirc.
18:23:22 <ehird> Er... SimonRC too?
18:23:30 <ehird> Sukoshi used to come here, I think she knew japanese
18:23:32 <ais523_> I know about 2 words of Japanese
18:23:41 <ehird> He was talking in japanese wasn't he
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18:23:59 <lament> i know two words in japanese, sushi and sake
18:24:26 <ais523_> lament: those are English words
18:24:32 <ais523_> I meant japanese words that aren't in English
18:25:02 <zzo38> I understand a few things in Japanese, such as kana script, some kanji, and some words as well.
18:26:06 <ehird> Hmm. I'd like a visual language where (to ASCIIlate):
18:26:07 <zzo38> And it is even on my Wikipedia user page
18:26:21 <ehird> i.e., attach a show to itself
18:26:36 <Deewiant> I can't read kanji at all and I've forgotten most of the kana too
18:26:42 <zzo38> ehird: That would be interesting, maybe you can write some more about it on esolang wiki
18:27:13 <ehird> heh, Eval would be the same as Jump
18:28:29 <zzo38> Kana is not that hard. Kanji is harder but I know some, such as the numbers and a few others (such as person, water, center, wheel, and a few other ones also)
18:28:58 <zzo38> I have another question. Do you like my Wikipedia user page?
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18:29:07 <Deewiant> It's not hard, no, but I just haven't used them enough to remember them
18:29:09 <ehird> the nice thing about graphical languages
18:29:13 <ehird> is that they're graphs.
18:29:29 <ais523_> that's a nasty thing about them too, as it makes the programs harder to transmit
18:29:29 <ehird> zzo38: it has a lot of userboxes.
18:29:39 <ehird> ais523_: eh, just make a pastebin built in
18:29:45 <ais523_> ideally you have both a graphical version and a text representation of them
18:29:47 <zzo38> And is there anything on my Wikipedia user page that you like or dislike or agree or disagree or neutral opinion
18:29:50 <ais523_> ehird: to the language? does that even make sense?
18:29:55 <ehird> ais523_: to the editor
18:30:10 <ehird> it'd put it on a pastebin as javascript
18:30:11 <ais523_> ehird: I strongly disagree with the language == editor principle
18:30:18 <ehird> ais523_: it's a graphical language...
18:30:22 <ehird> you pretty much have to have that
18:30:49 <ais523_> you have a well-defined representation for transferring the language
18:30:58 <ais523_> and different programs that can each use them
18:31:05 <ais523_> programs don't have to use it internally
18:31:09 <ais523_> just as an interchange format
18:31:10 <ehird> textual languages don't define a graphical representation for viewing them
18:31:17 <ehird> it's not like this language would be popular
18:31:17 <lament> ais523_: do you disagree with having separate keyboard layouts for English and Norwegian?
18:31:31 <lament> or for that matter English and Chinese?
18:31:40 <ais523_> I agree with having programs be able to read the keys without knowing the keyboard layout though
18:31:54 <ais523_> what ehird's suggesting is that norwegian keyboards only work with norwegian IRC clients
18:32:03 <ais523_> and english keyboards only work with english IRC clients
18:32:14 <ehird> this is officially a metaphor free zone
18:32:14 <ais523_> having something in between to translate the keystrokes makes much more sense
18:32:15 <zzo38> And did you make any of your own userboxes?
18:32:17 <lament> ais523_: keyboard is UI, editor is UI
18:32:18 <ehird> because you're all _terrible_ at it.
18:32:29 <lament> ais523_: UI should be specifically designed for the task at hand
18:32:35 <ais523_> and one language should allow multiple UIs
18:33:01 <ehird> I don't see how you're disagreeing with me.
18:33:02 <ais523_> and it shouldn't matter which UI you used, the program should still work
18:33:06 <lament> i think we're all agreeing.
18:33:08 <ehird> I was just saying that the UIs should paste to a pastebin.
18:33:24 <ehird> And to edit them, you'd load it into one of the UIs.
18:33:36 <ais523_> presumably this would work in a non-internet-connected way too
18:33:50 <ehird> you're sharing a program
18:33:54 <ais523_> the interchange format doesn't have to be textual, presumably it would be whatever stream of bytes was sent to the pastebin to do the pasting
18:34:02 <ehird> binary serialization, yes
18:34:13 <ais523_> a common serialization's enough to keep me happy
18:34:26 <ais523_> although having it human-readable and human-writable is always nice
18:34:44 <ehird> I think writing a complex graph textually is a recipe for disaster
18:35:01 <ais523_> that's why you'd rarely edit by hand
18:35:02 <ehird> besides, just use an online graph editor; if you're making a graphbin, adding editing facilities shouldn't be too hard
18:35:06 <lament> ehird: so all programming is a recipe for disaster?
18:35:16 <ehird> most programs aren't directly graphs
18:35:20 <ais523_> ehird: please don't assume Internet connections
18:35:24 <ais523_> I don't have one most of the itme
18:35:31 <lament> PLEASE ASSUME INTERNET CONNECTIONS
18:35:40 <ehird> ais523_: okay, so you get your programs off your HD or a disc, right?
18:35:41 <ais523_> and no way should a programming language care whether its user is internet-connected or not
18:35:43 <ehird> so put the UI on that disc
18:35:56 <ehird> ok, so there's no need for it to be human readable :-)
18:36:05 <zzo38> And if you want, you can even look at my image directory storages http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/index.php/02/
18:36:16 <ehird> ais523_: a big advantage of binary: the parsing is much, much faster
18:36:45 <ehird> "I just can't play a game that doesn't have good graphics. My machine has one of the fastest and most expensive graphics cards for a reason, and you'd better use it if you expect me to like your game."
18:36:49 <ais523_> a big disadvantage of binary: it tends to be corrupted in transit
18:36:56 <ehird> ais523_: if you use Windows.
18:37:06 <ehird> binary is the same as text on all sane operating systems
18:37:07 <ais523_> ehird: or anyone between me and the program uses Windows
18:37:14 <ehird> Yes, well, so don't do that. Upload in binary mode.
18:37:16 <ais523_> ehird: not on the Internet, it isn't
18:37:16 <zzo38> Well, I prefer games with minimal graphics, regardless of graphics card.
18:37:19 <ehird> Or don't use Windows.
18:37:23 <ais523_> ehird: bigendian or littleendian?
18:37:35 <ais523_> binary is much less standardised than text
18:37:43 <ais523_> not to mention things like bitwidths
18:37:47 <ehird> anything else, is madness
18:38:07 <ais523_> ehird: you can still tell a text file from a binary file even on UNIX, though
18:38:14 <ehird> Only via heuristics, ais523_.
18:38:29 <ais523_> but I mean, although all UNIXes store text the same
18:38:32 <ais523_> they store binary differently
18:38:47 <zzo38> I especially like the mathNEWS covers.
18:38:57 <zzo38> Do you like the mathnews covers pictures?
18:38:57 <ais523_> 0x12345678 can map to a different sequence of bytes on one computer than on another
18:39:03 <ais523_> that's why text is used for information interchange
18:39:16 <ehird> ais523_: just specify one in the serialization standard and stick to it
18:39:47 <ehird> I've never had a problem with it. Stop using non-unixes. :-)
18:40:17 <ais523_> ehird: you're lucky to never have had a problem with it
18:40:24 <ais523_> do you exclusively use x86_64?
18:40:31 <zzo38> Of course with text files, there is UNIX line-endings and printer line-endings but many programs I have dealt with accept both
18:40:43 <ehird> Well, I don't use non-x86 processors, no. Though I have.
18:40:49 <ehird> Surely FTP and HTTP and all handle this?
18:41:00 <ais523_> with text, line endings are the only thing to worry about
18:41:03 <ehird> I mean, take image uploaders, ais523_
18:41:04 <ais523_> ehird: they translate text files, but not binaries
18:41:08 <ehird> They upload binary data over http
18:41:11 <zzo38> Network line endings are printer line endings, as far as I know.
18:41:12 <ehird> They never have endian issues
18:41:31 <ais523_> ehird: a lot of work goes into image formats
18:41:36 <ais523_> specifically to prevent endian issues
18:41:54 <ais523_> I'm not saying it's impossible
18:42:03 <ais523_> to design a working binary format
18:42:07 <ais523_> but it is very easy to mess up
18:42:29 <ehird> You can have a binary format that just uses ASCII chars, ais523_.
18:42:42 <ehird> Heck, most formats probably don't need more than the printable chars.
18:42:47 <ehird> So it would take the same amount of space.
18:42:51 <ehird> I'll probably do that.
18:42:59 <ais523_> for instance, libpng has at least two functions that deal with endianness
18:43:04 <ehird> The graphbin would of course translate it to some sort of Javascript data structure on viewing the graph, of course
18:43:09 <ais523_> ehird: there is one, ppm or something
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18:45:12 <ehird> http://e-texteditor.com/blog/2009/opencompany This is cool
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18:47:36 <zzo38> I prefer to run my businesses as if they were Free Software projects instead. But I have my own set of rules I use when running a business also
18:47:50 <ehird> what businesses do you have
18:49:05 <zzo38> I don't have any but I will start one in a few months. And of course I am still going to trademark stuff and make rules for when warranties are voided, but otherwise allow freedom. That means absolutely no patents.
18:49:08 <AnMaster> since there are LISP machines, why aren't there <other programming language> machines? Or are there?
18:49:22 <ehird> AnMaster: There are in theory.
18:49:25 <ais523_> AnMaster: there's the Befunge CPU, but I don't know if it was ever built
18:49:42 <ehird> Why should I consider that?
18:49:45 <ehird> It isn't in the least interesting.
18:50:07 <ehird> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
18:50:29 <AnMaster> apart from lisp machines and befunge cpus, any other such special purpose ones?
18:51:06 <AnMaster> FireyFly, hm now that you mention it, it sounds slightly familiar
18:51:19 <zzo38> Some of my ideas are Canadian credit chip systems (with complete freedom and security), custom calendar service, game console system, books (with ForthBASIC programs that can run on game console system), and others.
18:51:36 <ehird> "Canadian credit chip systems" err target market? :D
18:52:02 * Slereah is testing Python's lambdas.
18:53:04 <Slereah> Although I must say, doing the whole f(x) thing feels pretty weird for lambdas.
18:53:06 <zzo38> Canadian credit chip systems are meant to be used in Canada obviously, possibly transitional, but can be used in other countries as well, in addition to being used for things other than credit chips.
18:53:26 <zzo38> I already wrote the protocols involved!
18:53:28 <ais523_> what are credit chips anyway?
18:54:08 <zzo38> Canada because I am Canadian.
18:54:09 <AnMaster> btw I assume you all noticed linux 2.6.29 was released yesterday
18:54:13 <ehird> http://www.nordier.com/v7x86/
18:54:39 <ais523_> AnMaster: I noticed it was released, but I noticed today not yesterday
18:54:42 <ehird> AnMaster: I did not notice.
18:54:43 <ehird> But I also didn't care.
18:54:51 <ais523_> I don't know if that counts as noticing it was released yesterday
18:55:00 <ais523_> your sentence was ambiguous
18:55:27 <AnMaster> you are right, it was ambigious
18:55:53 <zzo38> My service provider is Canadian so from that you can see that I am Canadian also.
18:55:56 <AnMaster> ais523_, I'm currently compiling it (not on my main system though, I'm not that insane)
18:56:55 <ehird> your isp is ... very 90s
18:56:56 <ehird> "DCCNET is a unique state-of-the-art Internet service using the speed capabilities of your existing Cable TV Connection. With speeds up to 100 times faster than a telephone modem it's the best way of connecting to the Internet. "
18:57:10 <ehird> Requirements for the Macintosh platform are:
18:57:10 <ehird> * OS 8.1 or higher
18:57:28 <ehird> you also need windows 98 and 32mb of ram and windows 98 or higher for windows :-D
18:57:53 <ais523_> does OS 8.1 or higher include 10?
18:58:10 <ehird> http://dccnet.com/delta/index.html
18:58:17 <ehird> The site design includes 1997.
18:58:22 <AnMaster> ais523_, probably not since Classic emulation support was dropped when Apple switched to Intel
18:58:23 <ehird> Hm, wait, more 1998
18:58:36 <ehird> http://dccnet.com/delta/images/contact3.jpg "Holy crap! A blank screen!"
18:58:38 <lament> ah 1998, the golden age of web design
18:59:11 <ehird> Considering that zzo38 is connected via them.
18:59:13 <ehird> I would assume so.
18:59:20 <ehird> 17:46 zzo38 has joined (n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com)
18:59:35 <lament> they're named after an IRC command?
18:59:44 <ehird> AnMaster: You are so observant.
18:59:56 <zzo38> The service providers are given before the command on each line.
19:00:00 <ehird> https://webmail.dccnet.com/scripts/webmail.exe
19:00:08 <ehird> i bet it's written in delphi
19:00:12 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I'm just surprised it isn't a left over web page of some company that went bust..
19:00:21 <ais523_> webmail.exe is one of the more ridiculous filenames I've seen recently
19:00:28 <ehird> ais523_: it just means
19:00:33 <ehird> 3. written in compiled language
19:00:38 <ais523_> incidentally, does anyone here put the .exe suffix on UNIX executables?
19:00:47 <ehird> it makes sense if you want a suffix
19:00:52 <ehird> .exe doesn't mean PE, after all
19:00:52 <zzo38> Actually I used to use EXE for CGI scripts as well. But not anymore. All the EXE scripts you want to access on my web-site no longer work. I have written replacements for some of them in PHP.
19:00:55 <ais523_> I used to back on UNIX, but don't nowadays on Linux
19:01:05 <ais523_> .exe is a sane suffix if you're suffixing executables at all
19:01:06 <ehird> most of the time you don't want a suffix
19:01:12 <ehird> http://help.dccnet.com/ <-- hey, firefox
19:01:13 <ais523_> just unix shells don't use implied suffices
19:01:18 <ehird> they're not _too_ behind
19:01:23 <ais523_> I still often put the .sh extension on batch files
19:01:34 <ehird> i like how people have to manually tweak the spam folder
19:01:43 <zzo38> I think PlayStation executables also use the .EXE extension
19:01:47 <ais523_> The browser you are using is not supported.
19:01:55 <ais523_> (warning from the student portal at my university)
19:02:00 <AnMaster> ais523_, ls --color=auto uses file extensions on GNU/Linux systems. How usually depends on distro
19:02:03 <ais523_> what's amazing is the list of supported browsers
19:02:21 <ais523_> heh, see for yourself, http://www.my.bham.ac.uk/cp/home/check/post?supported=false
19:02:25 <lament> ls --color=auto also uses the x permission.
19:02:38 <ehird> ais523_: shit, they don't support leopard : - (
19:02:51 <ais523_> yes, and they support firefox 1 and firefox 1.5
19:02:53 <ehird> it was better than firefox
19:03:03 <ais523_> that error message I got on firefox 2
19:03:17 <ehird> who else used mozilla suite
19:03:19 <zzo38> And I think .exe are still used for Mono executables on Linux (but not sure)
19:03:22 <ais523_> interestingly, they support MSIE-Windows but not MSIE-Mac
19:03:27 <AnMaster> but really it is easy to forget to update such pages if you always use modern browsers
19:03:30 <ehird> ais523_: MSIE-mac is totally separate
19:03:42 <ais523_> it's still interesting, though
19:03:43 <ehird> interestingly, it was altogther ok
19:03:44 <Slereah> Well, back on the Limp interpreter :3
19:03:47 <ehird> i maen, to a point
19:03:56 <ais523_> "Internet Explorer 5.x (latest version), 6.0 SP2 and 7.0"
19:04:01 <Slereah> Does anyone know what's the limits on the names for defined funtions?
19:04:10 <ais523_> the really really amusing thing is
19:04:17 <ais523_> that on the computers here that use firefox
19:04:25 <Slereah> What can you name a defined function?
19:04:28 <ais523_> instead of setting the homepage to bypass the check, or changing the check
19:04:40 <Slereah> Even a pre-existing function?
19:04:46 <ais523_> they went and set the homepage to a page saying "please click continue on the next page"
19:04:46 <ehird> you are making no. sense.
19:04:52 <ais523_> which redirects to that page after about 5 seconds
19:05:03 <Slereah> Like if I want to do def print
19:05:09 <ehird> print is a keyword
19:05:16 <Slereah> That's what I wanted to know!
19:05:22 <ehird> you could have just TRIED
19:05:26 <Slereah> Is there a way to check for keywords?
19:05:33 <ehird> u'll know if you use one
19:05:55 <Slereah> I meant more of a function to check a string
19:06:10 <ehird> what on earth are you doing
19:06:44 <Slereah> Well, for the limp thingy, I want to rewrite the program in Python, since interpreting it directly looks like a pain
19:06:57 <ehird> why can't you program
19:07:29 <zzo38> I don't like Python program language
19:07:42 <ehird> please don't say because of the whitespace
19:07:52 <Slereah> I'm not too sure how to interpret it directly
19:08:06 <ais523_> oh, the whitespace is a symptom, not the problem itself
19:08:23 <ais523_> I'm very surprised the python interp doesn't error on indentation that isn't exactly 4 spaces, actually
19:08:43 <ais523_> mildly annoying, as I still think Python's got one of the best mainstream OO implementations I've ever seen
19:08:57 <ehird> python OO is terrible
19:09:04 <lament> Some people like using two spaces
19:09:12 <lament> in the REPL, it's nice to use one space
19:09:13 <ais523_> ehird: what don't you like about it?
19:09:15 <zzo38> There are various reasons I don't like Python.
19:09:16 <ais523_> lament: you're missing the point
19:09:26 <ehird> ais523_: it's just not good compared to a smalltalk derivative
19:09:29 <lament> you don't have a point
19:09:35 <ais523_> oh, a REPL is a very good reason why whitespace is a bad idea, I didn't even think of that
19:09:39 <ehird> lament, stop being RIGHT
19:09:51 <ehird> is mainstream, and has a smalltalk-derived OO system
19:10:07 <lament> I've used python quite a lot and never had a problem with indentation. It's really not hard to use 4 spaces and not accidentally 5 or 3.
19:10:20 <lament> Set your editor to enter 4 spaces when you press Tab, and you're done.
19:10:22 <ais523_> lament: I've lost Python programs before due to accidentally corrupting the whitespace
19:10:27 <AnMaster> hm I think I read somewhere that Python is LL(1) to parse. I suck at parsers, so... how are LL and LR related? Can any LL grammar be parsed with a LR parser as well or?
19:10:32 <lament> ais523_: you have special talents.
19:10:35 <ais523_> AnMaster: LL(1)'s less general
19:10:52 <ehird> lament: his main complaint is that entering a bf interp into bsmntbombdood involved exec'ing a large string with \n and spaces in
19:10:54 <AnMaster> ais523_, I see. So it is technically even simpler to parse?
19:10:58 <lament> ehird: ruby is ugly though :(
19:11:04 <zzo38> I much prefer things like Forth, C, JavaScript, rather than Python.
19:11:04 <ais523_> LR(1) is pretty complicated
19:11:15 <ehird> lament: Ruby is only ugly if you have a lot of nested blocks.
19:11:24 <lament> ehird: sigils! special syntax for exactly 1 HOF argument! begin/end!
19:11:30 <ais523_> on the other hand, LR(0) is simpler than LL(1), and LL(0)'s simpler still, although I think unusable for syntax much more complicated than deadfish's
19:11:39 <ehird> 1. I rarely use sigils when coding ruby; also, they're not type sigils
19:11:48 <ehird> 3. It's do/end, and you can use {/} if you want.
19:11:53 <AnMaster> ais523_, what sort of grammar would Befunge be?
19:12:09 <AnMaster> or does the question even make sense?
19:12:24 <ais523_> AnMaster: Befunge doesn't even have a grammar
19:12:28 <lament> ehird: oh, not HOF argument, just a block. There's definitely special syntax for passing one block.
19:12:35 <ais523_> actually, maybe it counts as LL(0)
19:12:38 <ehird> lament: You can only pass one block.
19:12:41 <ais523_> it's very simple, one token = one command
19:12:44 <lament> ehird: how is that not a bug?
19:12:44 <ais523_> and each command is one char long
19:12:48 <ehird> Yes, it's not too pure; but in practice, it works out just fine, lament.
19:12:59 <ehird> And because there's not an easy way to get a nice syntax for multiple blocks; but I never need more, really.
19:13:02 <AnMaster> ais523_, what about S-Expressions?
19:13:06 <ehird> Generally if I need more I'm going about something the wrong way
19:13:27 <lament> the same logic "in practice it works out well" can be applied to Python or indeed anything else.
19:13:36 <AnMaster> ais523_, even I could figure out how to parse that into a in memory tree with some rather basic code
19:14:02 <ehird> lament: Yes, but Ruby's code is generally cleaner, the OO is nicer, the limitations are generally due to bad code, etc.
19:14:42 <ehird> I'm saying Ruby's OO is better.
19:14:47 <ehird> You said Ruby is ugly. I replied why I think it isn't.
19:14:48 <lament> and don't get me started on select/reject/inject/subject/surject/project.
19:14:58 <lament> Ruby has *synonyms* for shit.
19:15:07 <ehird> lament: So does Python.
19:15:15 <ehird> I'll let you figure them out, though.
19:15:17 <lament> ruby has them as a matter of policy. It has a *lot* of them.
19:15:22 <lament> Python has them as exceptions.
19:15:54 <zzo38> And I have written a proposal for a improved variant of JavaScript also.
19:16:30 <ais523_> ehird: please show lament some oepy
19:16:46 <ais523_> oepy is one of my favourite things of yours, just because it's so fun for showing to python fans
19:17:04 <lament> ehird: just using non-standard names for map and filter is a big warning sign
19:17:06 <ais523_> in fact, one python fan I know would rather make the lang Turing-incomplete than allow more than one way to do something
19:17:11 <ehird> lament: "map" is the preferred name.
19:17:19 <ehird> Sure, select is preferred instead of filter; so fucking what? It's not relevant.
19:17:23 <lament> it means "WARNING! THIS LANGUAGE WAS DESIGNED BY PEOPLE WHO DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING"
19:17:29 <AnMaster> ais523_, anyway what about parsing S-Expressions? Is it LL(1) or ?
19:17:31 <ehird> it was originally a lisp, lament
19:17:42 <ehird> The preferred word for filter in Python is [x for x in list if f(x)]
19:17:45 <ehird> that's bloody non standard to me
19:17:46 <lament> Lisp has no problem with passing more than one closure to a function.
19:17:55 <zzo38> Yes of course python programmers want bondage and discipline
19:18:01 <ehird> you're just trolling, lament; you haven't yet given decent answers to my questions
19:18:39 <ais523_> AnMaster: sexp's certainly LR(0) (as is BF), I don't know if it's LL(1) as well
19:19:00 <ais523_> LR(0) means that whenever you see a symbol, you know its context without any further information
19:19:06 <ais523_> so in sexp, ( always opens a sexp
19:19:10 <ais523_> and in BF, [ always opens a loop
19:19:20 <AnMaster> ais523_, ah ok. didn't you say LL(0) < LR(0) < LL(1) < LR(1)?
19:20:06 <zzo38> What type of grammar would Forth be? Forth has no syntax or grammar as far as I know.
19:20:09 <AnMaster> hm does string prevent it being LR(0)?
19:20:15 <ehird> zzo38: it has a trivial lexing grammer
19:20:21 <ehird> specifically, separation by space
19:20:23 <lament> Forth doesn't have a grammar
19:20:26 <ehird> 2 2+ is valid forth
19:20:31 <ehird> but that's an oddity
19:20:39 <zzo38> Only if the word 2+ is defined
19:20:47 <lament> zzo38: forth doesn't have a grammar, a "grammar" is something pre-defined
19:20:49 <ehird> in original forht, 2 2+ worked.
19:20:53 <lament> it cannot change while you're reading the program.
19:20:54 <ehird> lament: it is predefined
19:21:21 <ehird> Sure, you can poke at the compiler's memory locations; that does not count. Also, fuck off with your blanket assertions, they're uninteresting.
19:21:36 <lament> if you know forth, i have to assume you're just trolling.
19:21:38 <AnMaster> ais523_, so what about the "a(" thing ehird mentioned there?
19:22:04 <ehird> lament: go on then — how do you change the parser to read other than space separated, without poking into memory?
19:22:31 <ehird> zzo38: ais523_: http://pastie.org/425635.txt?key=12ziikqeeiprgcigklfoa An IRC bot written in Python, but as one big ugly expression. Completely whitespace-agnostic. No significant indentation
19:22:37 <lament> ehird: for example, by implementing something like the ( command.
19:22:46 <lament> ehird: which happens to be already implemented.
19:23:18 <zzo38> If you want to change the parser in Forth you will have to write your own parser and execute the new parser, then it will read the rest of the program using your own parser, when it is finished the old parser will resume but it won't do anything because there is nothing left to parse
19:23:26 <ais523_> I've seen oepy before, but I always like to see it again
19:23:27 <lament> ehird: what zzo38 said.
19:23:29 <ehird> zzo38: I don't really count that as changing the parser
19:23:41 <ehird> it's just reading words from the input stream
19:23:46 <ehird> it's not changing the parser, it's subverting it
19:24:13 <zzo38> It depends on the specific Forth implementation how the parser might be changed if it can be changed at all.
19:24:25 <ehird> ais523_: Have you ever _talked_ to lament?
19:24:34 <ehird> Heck, he admits to being a troll about a third of the time.
19:24:56 -!- oepy has joined.
19:24:59 <ehird> *echo echo—echo— echo—
19:25:00 <oepy> echo—echo— echo—
19:25:08 <ehird> *rot13 qwertyuiop!
19:25:13 <oepy> cmd, echo, epy, help, rot13
19:25:20 <oepy> ZeroDivisionError: integer division or modulo by zero
19:25:50 <ais523_> *epy (lambda x: x(x))(lambda x: x(x))
19:25:50 <oepy> RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp
19:25:52 <zzo38> I am in the process of writing IRC bot as well, called pocket monster IRC. It allows you to play pocket monster IRC
19:25:56 <ehird> *cmd hello s('Hello, world!')
19:26:00 <oepy> KeyError: "s('Hello,"
19:26:03 <zzo38> But I used PHP instead
19:26:04 <ais523_> what, you mean it doesn't tail-recurse? fail.
19:26:26 <ehird> no, seriously, what?
19:26:29 <ais523_> on the other hand, it seems oepy can execute an infinite loop in well under 6 seconds
19:26:39 <ehird> ais523_: python isn't tail rec-
19:26:43 <ehird> why are you saying hi, oepy?
19:26:57 <ehird> ais523_: it should be, but it isn't, because recursion is discouraged.
19:27:02 <ehird> you're meant to use loops.
19:27:13 <ehird> I don't like Python, see. I just think the criticism of it is mostly discouraged.
19:27:14 <ais523_> ...I thought Python was meant to be multi-paradigm?
19:27:16 <ehird> AnMaster: About as insane as C.
19:27:21 <ehird> Or, most other languages.
19:27:24 <ais523_> or can't it be, without giving more than one way to do things?
19:27:30 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but GCC can optimise tail recursion
19:27:34 <ehird> Scheme is the only language that _specifies_ TCO.
19:27:37 <ais523_> ehird: the C standard doesn't require tail recursion, but doesn't forbid it either
19:27:39 <zzo38> oepy also sent a "hi" message to me, privately, when I sent CTRL+A VERSION
19:27:43 <ais523_> and many good languages do
19:27:44 <AnMaster> ehird, what about common lisp?
19:27:47 <ehird> (yes, it specifies all tail call optimizations, not just recursion)
19:27:57 <ehird> Many Common Lisps overflow the stack on tail recursion.
19:27:59 <AnMaster> ehird, also erlang specifies TCO I'm pretty sure
19:28:05 <ais523_> ehird: ocaml specifies tail-recursive implementations of its stdlib
19:28:10 <ehird> ((Erlang has a spec?))
19:28:14 <ais523_> Perl has an explicit tail-recursion operator
19:28:20 <ehird> AnMaster: haskell gets it implicitly from laziness
19:28:21 <ais523_> which just to confuse people, is called goto
19:28:29 <ehird> (match(r':([^!]+)\S* PRIVMSG ((oepy) .*|(#esoteric) :.*oepy.*)', txt), (lambda a, _, b, c:
19:28:29 <ehird> (lambda x: socket.send('PRIVMSG %s :%s\r\n' % x))(
19:28:32 <ehird> {'oepy': (a, 'hi'), '#esoteric': ('#esoteric', 'hi '+a)}[b or c]
19:28:33 <zzo38> Who is oepy anyways
19:28:41 <ehird> zzo38: http://pastie.org/425635.txt?key=12ziikqeeiprgcigklfoa
19:28:42 <ais523_> although it's a different goto from standard C/BASIC goto
19:28:45 <ehird> a python irc bot, BUT
19:28:45 <ehird> it's written in one line
19:28:51 <ehird> but one expression
19:28:53 <ehird> so it's whitespace insensitive
19:28:59 <ehird> I wrote it to kill the people who think python is whitespace sensitive :-D
19:29:04 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
19:29:13 <ais523_> ehird: submit it to proggit
19:29:25 <ais523_> seriously, I'd like to see what arguments result
19:29:55 <ehird> sec, need to fix my *cmd invokation
19:30:00 <ehird> *cmd hello s("Hello, world!")
19:30:04 <oepy> KeyError: 's("Hello,'
19:30:07 <zzo38> So it looks for a PRIVMSG command containing the string "oepy"? Is that correct?
19:30:09 <ehird> See? Makes no sense. I wonder what.
19:30:14 <ehird> zzo38: That's what makes it say hi, yes.
19:30:18 <ehird> It does other stuff too; see the code.
19:30:27 <ehird> Including run one-expression Python, help, rot13, echo, and defining your own commands.
19:30:32 <ais523_> *cmd hello s("Hello,_world1")
19:30:38 <oepy> KeyError: 's("Hello,_world1")'
19:30:43 <ehird> ais523_: nope, here's what you need to do
19:30:56 <ehird> *epy set('hello', lambda: s('Hello, world!'))
19:30:57 <oepy> TypeError: <lambda>() takes exactly 0 arguments (2 given)
19:31:10 <ehird> *epy set(hello=lambda: s('Hello, world!'))
19:31:10 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0x2433f0>
19:31:16 <AnMaster> ehird, yes erlang does. I can only find an old draft of it with google though
19:31:16 <oepy> NameError: global name 's' is not defined
19:31:41 <AnMaster> ehird, http://erlang.org/download/erl_spec47.ps.gz but there are newer versions. Just no idea where..
19:31:47 <ehird> *epy set(hello=lambda: 1/0)
19:31:48 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0x2439b0>
19:31:51 <oepy> ZeroDivisionError: integer division or modulo by zero
19:32:11 <oepy> Use quit() or Ctrl-D (i.e. EOF) to exit
19:32:21 <ehird> er, shit, I forgot to remove that :-D
19:32:28 <ehird> *epy set(hello=(lambda ss: lambda: ss('Hello, world!'))(s))
19:32:29 <oepy> NameError: name 's' is not defined
19:32:37 <ehird> s should be defined
19:32:37 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:32:39 <ehird> it's in the epy scope
19:32:40 <ais523_> that's a realy brilliant response for the bot to come up with, though
19:32:43 <AnMaster> ehird, <ehird> ((Erlang has a spec?)) <-- I answered but you ignored what I said?
19:32:54 <zzo38> Now fix it if there is security holes or whatever in oepy
19:32:57 -!- oepy has joined.
19:33:02 <ehird> they are pretty much unfixable
19:33:06 <ehird> python isn't designed for sandboxing
19:33:22 <ehird> s is the wrong thing
19:33:27 <ehird> *epy set(hello=lambda: pr('Hello, world!'))
19:33:28 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0x23e2b0>
19:33:28 <ais523_> I think there's a python-sandboxer script in Battle for Wesnoth
19:33:54 <AnMaster> ehird, *shrug* I see you asked without being interested in the answer.
19:33:57 <ais523_> and it seems *cmd has one level of indirection too many
19:34:06 <ehird> AnMaster: It was a wondering; just shaddup
19:34:08 <ehird> ais523_: no, it's intentional
19:34:15 <ehird> although I forget why
19:34:33 <ehird> *epy set(echoecho=lambda a: (pr(a), pr(a)))
19:34:33 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0x23eb70>
19:34:35 <ehird> *cmd echoecho echoecho
19:34:37 <ais523_> also, why can't python be sandboxed?
19:34:38 <oepy> TypeError: <lambda>() takes exactly 1 argument (0 given)
19:34:45 <ehird> ais523_: it's not that simple
19:34:55 <ais523_> I mean, why isn't it simple?
19:35:06 <ais523_> I'm saying "what architectural decisions lead to it being hard"
19:35:14 -!- zzo38 has quit.
19:35:14 <ehird> ais523_: come back to me when you have a C program that runs another C program safely
19:35:15 <ais523_> as in, my question wasn't rhetorical
19:35:17 <ehird> *epy set(echoecho=lambda a: a+a)
19:35:18 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0x2425f0>
19:35:19 <ehird> *echoecho eccccccccchoooooo
19:35:20 <oepy> 'eccccccccchooooooeccccccccchoooooo'
19:35:26 <AnMaster> ehird, that is quite possible...
19:35:27 <ais523_> ehird: just write a C interp
19:35:28 <ehird> that stringifies as itself
19:35:34 <ehird> ais523_: I am not writing a goddamn python interp.
19:35:37 <ehird> *epy set(echoecho=lambda a: pr(a+a))
19:35:38 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0x242c30>
19:35:41 <ehird> ais523_: Not a solution.
19:35:43 <ais523_> well, no, you have one already
19:35:52 <ehird> *echoecho AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:35:52 <oepy> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:35:54 <ehird> *echoecho AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:35:54 <oepy> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
19:36:32 -!- zzo38 has joined.
19:36:48 <AnMaster> ehird, there are ways to sandbox a compiled C program, or any binary
19:37:00 <zzo38> *echoecho *echoecho
19:37:00 <oepy> *echoecho*echoecho
19:37:01 <AnMaster> iirc debian has a new fakeroot version that uses ptrace
19:37:20 <zzo38> *echoecho *echoecho
19:37:20 <oepy> TypeError: <lambda>() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given)
19:37:22 <AnMaster> ehird, that is safe execution of another C program as far as I can see..
19:37:31 <ais523_> *echoecho *echoecho *echoecho
19:37:31 <oepy> TypeError: <lambda>() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given)
19:37:34 <zzo38> *echoecho *echoecho *echoecho
19:37:34 <oepy> TypeError: <lambda>() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given)
19:37:34 <oepy> TypeError: <lambda>() takes exactly 1 argument (0 given)
19:37:40 <oepy> echoechoechoecho
19:37:48 <ais523_> there's something up with the parsing...
19:37:56 <ehird> Arguments separate on space.
19:38:03 <oepy> *echoecho*echoecho
19:38:14 <ais523_> zzo38 must have written two spaces by mistake
19:38:24 <ais523_> ehird: your bot is whitespace-sensitive, something's gone wrong here...
19:38:29 <ehird> *epy set(echoecho=lambda *a: (lambda x: pr(x+x))(' '.join(a)))
19:38:30 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0x24cc70>
19:38:51 <zzo38> Now it allows spaces
19:38:59 <zzo38> *echoecho *echoecho
19:38:59 <oepy> *echoecho*echoecho
19:39:06 <zzo38> *echoecho *echoecho <CTCP>
19:39:07 <oepy> *echoecho <CTCP>*echoecho <CTCP>
19:39:14 <zzo38> *echoecho <CTCP>VERSION<CTCP>
19:39:14 <oepy> <CTCP>VERSION<CTCP><CTCP>VERSION<CTCP>
19:39:16 <ehird> zzo38: It doesn't listen to itself
19:39:38 <zzo38> *echo <CTCP>VERSION<CTCP>
19:39:57 <ehird> zzo38: Here's a ctcp command:
19:40:25 <ehird> AnMaster: stop bugging me, I'm doing other things
19:40:37 <ehird> *epy set(ctcp=lambda a: pr(chr(1)+a+chr(1)))
19:40:38 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0x252f30>
19:40:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it is a very valid question
19:41:03 <ehird> AnMaster: I am delighted not to give a shit about your need to have every thing you say personally confirmed by me.
19:41:14 <ehird> If there is anything else you'd like me to ignore and do other things instead, please feel free to let me know
19:41:16 <ais523_> AnMaster: because it's a difference between safety from outside and safety from inside
19:41:20 <ehird> Now, back to ctcp.
19:41:32 <ais523_> in a lang like Haskell, for instance, you can prevent a program doing I/O simply by not giving it an I/O monad to play with
19:41:35 <ehird> *epy set(ctcp=lambda *a: pr(chr(1)+' '.join(a)+chr(1)))
19:41:35 <oepy> <function <lambda> at 0x2588b0>
19:41:40 <ehird> *ctcp ACTION is green
19:41:45 <ais523_> as long as you don't have unsafePerformIO or something like that getting in the way
19:42:03 <zzo38> Of course you can also use *echo with control characters, but now *ctcp adds the control characters by itself. I'm not sure how *cmd ctcp ctcp is supposed to work, though. I don't know Python very well
19:42:15 -!- oerjan has joined.
19:42:21 <oepy> KeyError: '*epy'
19:42:30 <ehird> 'cmd': (lambda s, name='no_name_specified', func='no_func_specified', *a:
19:42:31 <ehird> extra_cmds.__setitem__(name, (lambda s, *a:
19:42:32 <ehird> this(this)['epy'](s, 'get(%s, user=%s)(*%s)' % (repr(func), repr(user), repr(a))
19:42:33 <AnMaster> ais523_, Hm... So you mean you would need a separate python instance that you could sandbox?
19:42:44 <ais523_> AnMaster: that's what your analogy would be
19:42:57 <ais523_> is epy not in the namespace anyway?
19:43:04 <oepy> KeyError: 'epy'
19:43:08 <ehird> ais523_: that turns into
19:43:24 <zzo38> Looking at the log commands, it seems CTRL+A commands are recorded if they are malformed
19:43:30 <ehird> *epy get('epy',user='ais523')('ptr(1+2)')
19:43:31 <oepy> KeyError: 'epy'
19:43:37 <ais523_> zzo38: depends on the client
19:43:39 <zzo38> But not if they are formed correctly
19:43:39 <ehird> Which, of course, fails, as you haven't defined "epy".
19:43:48 <ais523_> and the CTRL+A commands are more commonly known as "CTCPs"
19:43:56 <ais523_> ehird: oh, I assumed epy itself was defined using the get mechanism
19:44:00 <AnMaster> ais523_, anyway then ehird's analogy of sandboxing C isn't very relevant. Since C have all those things needed for doing it. You could even do somewhat like valgrind and interpret the executable...
19:44:16 <ehird> ais523_: that looks up your set() results
19:44:17 <ais523_> valgrind doesn't interpret the executable, does it?
19:44:20 <ehird> this is the command namespace
19:44:23 <ehird> two different things
19:45:17 <ehird> oepy isn't hard to read, is it?
19:45:23 <ehird> once you get used to the:
19:45:25 <AnMaster> ais523_, I remember this because I ran into a (known) bug in it's handling of interpreting x87 instructions, related to rounding mode
19:45:31 <ehird> (lambda f: f(x))(lambda name: ...)
19:45:34 <ehird> let name = x in ...
19:45:37 <ehird> I think it's fairly easy
19:45:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I said that back when you wrote it, you claimed it was hard to read then...
19:45:57 <ais523_> ehird: it is to a pythoner
19:46:02 <ehird> no, AnMaster, I said it was ugly
19:46:04 <AnMaster> but I claimed it was rather easy compared to most python code I have seen
19:46:10 <ais523_> the whole point is that python is easy to read because all python programs look identical
19:46:11 <AnMaster> ehird, and easy to maintain too
19:46:14 <ais523_> so you only have to learn to read it once
19:46:26 <ais523_> on the other hand, they're rather too vertical for me to keep a lot in mind at once
19:46:26 <ehird> AnMaster: yes — and saying that reveals that you evidently can't freaking read it
19:46:31 <ehird> because if you could you wouldn't say it's easy to maintain
19:46:31 <ais523_> I keep losing track due to all the scrolling
19:46:37 <ehird> having wrote it, I can tell you that it's a pain in the ass to modify
19:46:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I remember giving an example of how to add a command, was dead easy
19:46:46 <ehird> ais523_: get a bigger terminal?
19:46:55 <lament> ais523_: yeah, we need multi-column editors
19:47:12 <ais523_> lament: how would that work with the whitespace thing? you couldn't track the indentation
19:47:15 <AnMaster> ehird, yes back when you first showed it in #esoteric
19:47:16 <oerjan> ap should be = (<*>) for any monad
19:47:22 <zzo38> I want to know if anyone is interested in pocket monster IRC and if you have requests
19:47:29 <ehird> zzo38: do you mean the pokemon rpg games?
19:47:33 <lament> ais523_: each column wide enough to fit everything (say, 80 chars)
19:47:36 <ehird> I'm not sure how that would work.
19:47:41 <ais523_> zzo38: did you just write the name of pokémon out in full? nobody does that
19:47:46 <ais523_> and I don't get how it would work over IRC
19:47:47 <ehird> ais523_: the japanese do
19:47:59 <ehird> although, well, that's more pokettu monsutra or something.
19:48:11 <zzo38> ehird: yes, close to that. It is multi-player battle only, and "limited" rather than "constructed" (the terms meaning what they do in M:tG)
19:48:14 <ais523_> more worrying for me is the fact that pocket monster correctly abbreviates to pokémon in both English and Japanese
19:48:33 <ais523_> zzo38: err... you mean, you have to draft pokémon from a random selection of boosters?
19:48:36 <ais523_> that's getting even more confusing
19:48:41 <zzo38> Yes, "pokemon" is a abbreviation of the Japanese words "poketto monsutaa" which means "pocket monster"
19:49:00 <oerjan> lament: japanese has tr?
19:49:32 <zzo38> It could be written in katakana but on IRC it is harder if the Unicode is not support very well
19:49:43 <AnMaster> ehird, that is Indian or something isn't it?
19:49:46 <ehird> Most irc clients support unicode.
19:49:50 <ehird> AnMaster: It's Kama Sutra.
19:49:50 <ais523_> zzo38: anyway, please tell me the rules for this really insane concept
19:49:52 <ehird> I said Karma Sutra.
19:50:07 <lament> I can always just ban anyone who can't get utf working.
19:50:09 <ais523_> a pokemon draft's a worrying-enough thought as-is, do you get to choose their attacks and evs and ivs etc yourself
19:50:16 <ais523_> or are they intrinsic on the pokemon?
19:50:25 <ehird> ais523_: you can teach them moves in the games
19:50:29 <ehird> so I wouldn't think instrinsic
19:50:38 <ehird> actually I don't even think this could possibly work.
19:50:40 <AnMaster> lament, interesting idea. But I have working UTF and I saw "ā" above?
19:50:42 <oerjan> does saying karma sutra reduce your karma?
19:50:43 <zzo38> Sort of like drafting from boosters, that is one possible limited play but there are other styles of limited as well, such as "random fixed deck" in which case each player gets things assigned randomly but equally. There are even more kinds of limited styles also.
19:50:48 <ais523_> ehird: I'm asking about the specific rules of limited pokemon-over-IRC
19:51:05 <ehird> oerjan: it's kindness porn
19:51:05 <ais523_> I don't think it could possibly work either, but am willing to be proven wrong
19:51:39 <AnMaster> suggestion: This channel use use UTF-EBCDIC!
19:51:42 <zzo38> There will be more than one possible type of limited play. I haven't worked out the specifics yet but if you have any suggestions I will take them into consideration.
19:51:47 <oerjan> ehird: i sort of assume the porn part is in the "kama", since sutra means something like text or book iirc
19:51:58 <ehird> oerjan: whatever :P
19:52:25 <oerjan> "K.ma means sensual or sexual pleasure, and s.tra are the guidlines of yoga, the word itself means thread in Sanskrit."
19:52:39 <AnMaster> oerjan, how comes "karma" and "kama" are so close then?
19:52:46 <oerjan> modulo unicode copy/paste error
19:52:50 <ehird> AnMaster: karma = spiritual pleasure? :P
19:53:05 <ais523_> isn't a kama a sort of weapon?
19:53:12 <AnMaster> ais523_, that's katana isn't it?
19:53:13 <ais523_> or do I play too much D&D?
19:53:18 <ehird> ais523_: Weapon book? I don't see the relevance to sex there :D
19:53:22 <ais523_> AnMaster: no, that's a different sort of weapon
19:53:35 <zzo38> I think there is kama in D&D also, isn't it? (And I mean 3.5e because 4e is hardly D&D)
19:53:37 <oerjan> ais523_: maybe -ma is a noun suffix like in greek...
19:53:51 <ehird> Holy crap, Slereah has never used a {} dictionary in Python.
19:53:51 <ais523_> a katana's a sort of high-quality sword, karmas are more like a sort of cross between a pickaxe and a scikle
19:54:11 <ais523_> zzo38: yep, and D&D 4 is a good game, but an entirely different game to D&D 3.5 and below
19:54:13 <AnMaster> ehird, where did you see that he didn't
19:54:18 <ehird> AnMaster: he has me on msn.
19:54:35 <ehird> it's just a protocol
19:54:36 <AnMaster> ehird, I suck at python and even I know about {} dicts...
19:54:43 <ehird> i thought you were going to complain about msn :P
19:54:56 <AnMaster> ehird, no I have done that so many times before
19:55:02 <zzo38> ais523_: I don't know how good 4e is (it is said to be a excellent war game), but it is a bad D&D game and a bad role-playing game. I'm not saying 4e is bad, but it isn't real D&D in my opinion
19:55:15 <ais523_> ehird: msn as a protocol may not be completely awful, but msn the servers have problems
19:55:22 <ais523_> they blocked youtube links for a while, for instance
19:55:30 <ehird> real d&ders play D&D -3i2
19:55:33 <AnMaster> ais523_, what about google links?
19:55:40 <ehird> ais523_: oh, they do a lot of that retarded blocking shit; I keep having to put spaces in urls
19:55:46 <ais523_> I don't think so, that would be even more ridiculous than blocking youtube
19:55:47 <ehird> download.php download.php download.php download.php download.php download.php download.php download.php
19:56:02 <zzo38> Or "Icosahedral RPG" (which I have written slowly over time)
19:56:07 <AnMaster> I would use a more open protocol
19:56:16 <lament> AnMaster: google talk!
19:56:21 <AnMaster> any good free, open and standard IM protocol
19:56:25 <ehird> AnMaster: It's not your choice to make: if everyone you know uses MSN, then you use MSN because otherwise you can't talk to them.
19:56:25 <ais523_> lament: yes, msn's the most popular instant messenger I've seen
19:56:29 <ehird> See? Human social interaction?
19:56:31 <ais523_> which is surprising given how awful it is
19:56:33 <ehird> lament: it's popular in the UK
19:56:34 <AnMaster> lament, is that open? I mean open like Jabber is open
19:56:35 <ehird> AIM is more popular in the US
19:56:38 <ehird> AnMaster: it IS jabber
19:56:40 <ais523_> ehird: actually, I just persuaded them to use IRC instead
19:56:44 <lament> AnMaster: google talk is jabber.
19:56:48 <ais523_> or to be precise, someone else did
19:56:52 <ehird> ais523_: Yes, you're lucky because you have technically competent friends.
19:56:55 <zzo38> In Icosahedral it should be you are allowed to add/subtract/multiply/divide spells. And spell effects can have quantum superpositions.
19:56:56 <AnMaster> well what about the xml mess that jabber is?
19:56:56 <ehird> Shouldn't we all be so lucky.
19:57:01 <lament> all my friends switched from msn to google talk over the past year or so
19:57:02 <AnMaster> I would prefer a protocol not using XML
19:57:12 <ehird> ais523_: we're talking about a different level of technical incompetence here; and also apathy.
19:57:16 <ehird> After all, all THEIR friends use MSN, too.
19:57:29 <AnMaster> lament, so you can connect to google talk using a jabber client of your choice?
19:57:38 <zzo38> I prefer IRC protocol. I don't like MSN or any of the other ones
19:57:42 <ehird> They include instructions for doing so.
19:57:42 <ais523_> ehird: most people are capable of opening more than one chat app at once
19:57:46 <AnMaster> I thought it was something in the side bar on gmail?
19:57:49 <ehird> ais523_: why should they
19:57:55 <ehird> AnMaster: And a downloadable app. And a jabber server.
19:57:56 <lament> AnMaster: that's one possible way to connect.
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19:58:03 <lament> I use bitlbee personally.
19:58:03 <ais523_> ehird: because some of their friends use MSN, and others use IRC?
19:58:08 <ehird> ais523_: no they don't
19:58:15 <ais523_> it's not as if people don't use both MSN and Facebook, for instance
19:58:17 <zzo38> IRC is simple enough to be used without a client
19:58:22 <ehird> facebook is a social networking site
19:58:30 <ais523_> zzo38: yes, but I wouldn't expect someone nontechnical to do that
19:58:36 <ais523_> ehird: so what, they have them both open anyway
19:58:40 <ais523_> what's a third program to that?
19:58:44 <ais523_> also, IRC is actually possible to close
19:58:49 <ehird> ais523_: it's a browser.
19:58:49 <AnMaster> ehird, google's jabber server is downloadable? huh? What is the name of it so I can google it
19:58:53 <ais523_> I've been to cybercafes before with other people's MSN still running
19:58:53 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it is not.
19:58:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: And a downloadable app. And a jabber server.
19:59:08 <ais523_> AnMaster: a downloadable server, does that even make sense?
19:59:11 <ehird> AnMaster: can you stop being so goddamn dense? IT'S A SERVER USING THE JABBER PROTOCOL
19:59:21 <AnMaster> ais523_, well wget http://apache.org/whatever ?
19:59:39 <oerjan> <zzo38> You can bowdlerise it to "B****fuck", "Brainf***", "B****f***", or whatever you want, in writing, but in writing I prefer to use the proper word "Brainfuck".
19:59:44 <ais523_> AnMaster: that's a website, or server software, not a server itself
19:59:49 <oerjan> officially it should be lowercase too
19:59:53 <zzo38> http://liquidmateria.info/wiki/Icosahedral I think the license (see red text on bottom) is a license I wrote I think is valid for free culture works, do you think it is
20:00:03 <ais523_> it follows normal capitalisation rules for an ordinary word
20:00:10 <ais523_> so it's "Brainfuck" at the start of a sentence
20:00:13 <ais523_> and "brainfuck" inside a sentence
20:00:23 <ehird> ais523_: anyway, if you want you can try and convince my friends to use IRC instead. Predicted response: "Uh... why?" (time passes) "Nah, I'll stick with MSN."
20:00:29 <AnMaster> ais523_, To be downloading a server doesn't sound strange. It would imply "server software"
20:00:30 <ais523_> people always seem to get this wrong, for some rwason
20:00:34 <ehird> in the meantime i'll continue using MSN.
20:00:41 <zzo38> OK, make "brainfuck" lowercased. Of course that is not always done but I guess it is the standard lowercased
20:00:46 <ais523_> ehird: well, they switched to IRC for the ability to use channels
20:00:57 <ehird> MSN does group chats.
20:00:57 <ais523_> and specifically, ban each other from channels
20:01:12 <ais523_> but does it do two different group chats with the same people involved?
20:01:20 <AnMaster> anyway what about something like jabber but WITHOUT THE XML MESS?
20:01:20 <ehird> I can do that with Adium
20:01:24 <ehird> Dunno if it does that with the official client, but
20:01:27 <ehird> why would they want to?
20:01:30 <ehird> it's the same people, after all
20:01:34 <ais523_> ehird: to talk about different things
20:01:37 <AnMaster> a simple protocol like IRC maybe...
20:01:37 <ehird> (They don't; because they don't need it.)
20:01:41 <ehird> ais523_: why do they need to categorize that
20:01:42 <ais523_> and actually it's about 3 groups of people, which mostly overlap
20:01:52 <ehird> ais523_: conversations IRL drift everywher
20:01:53 <ais523_> and some people are banned from various groups
20:01:54 <AnMaster> but for some reason a lot of people doesn't consider IRC a subtype of "IM"
20:01:57 <ehird> most people aren't sticklers for organizations
20:02:09 <ais523_> the real reason's so you can have conversations with people about certain subjects, and ban other people from them
20:02:27 <ais523_> it's really easy to underestimate the complexity of secondary school politics, it seems
20:02:50 <ehird> My friends tend to have less drama. :P
20:02:54 -!- zzo38 has quit.
20:03:03 <ais523_> so they use MSN just to create drama?
20:03:26 <ais523_> I've actually gone into a cybercafe
20:03:31 <ais523_> someone else's MSN was still running
20:03:35 <ais523_> and I couldn't quit it at all
20:03:37 <ehird> err, they use MSN to talk
20:03:45 <ais523_> the thing that would have let me quit it was hidden by the cybercafe software
20:04:02 <ais523_> so I just said "I'm actually not <username>, they left this cybercafe and left their MSN client running, and I can't figure out how to exit it"
20:04:10 <ais523_> and then ignored everything that came up there
20:04:24 <ais523_> I'm not entirely sure what the reaction of the people involved was
20:04:35 <ehird> Prediction: "huh?"
20:05:08 * oerjan shuffles away fro the cynicism goo ehird is emanating
20:05:25 <ehird> oerjan: I prefer to call it 'experience'.
20:05:27 <AnMaster> ais523_, what about telling the staff about it?
20:05:34 <ehird> AnMaster: Response: 'huh?'
20:05:39 <oerjan> eek, my sock is dissolving from it
20:05:49 <ehird> Come on, you can't seriously believe people are that technically competent.
20:05:57 <ehird> I live in a freaking bubble and I know they're not
20:06:10 <lament> a sock-dissolving bubble?
20:06:13 <ais523_> AnMaster: they were incompetent, and I'd probably have been in trouble if I tried
20:06:14 <AnMaster> ehird, well they would have to phone some manager then until they reached someone who knew
20:06:27 <ehird> NOBODY KNOWS NOBODY CARES!
20:06:30 <ehird> THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!
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20:06:35 <ehird> People don't understand computers
20:06:35 <ehird> They don't want to
20:06:38 <ais523_> you could get free uses of that place by control-alt-deleting the cybercafe software and just using the computer
20:06:39 <ehird> They don't want to hear about it
20:06:42 <ehird> because they DON'T UNDERSTAND!
20:06:46 <ehird> And they don't want to hear about it!
20:08:11 <AnMaster> the correct action is always to report the issue to whoever is responsible, and then let them forward it upwards.
20:08:27 <ehird> *FIVE THOUSAND HEADDESKS*
20:08:30 <AnMaster> ehird, in my experience it usually works
20:08:36 <ehird> *GUN**BULLET**HEAD*
20:09:25 <AnMaster> don't accept people don't know, if they run a bloody cyber café how did they set it up if they don't know anything about it
20:09:26 <ais523_> AnMaster: I'm pretty sure that there were only three people involved in running the place
20:09:41 <ais523_> AnMaster: my guess is they downloaded cybercafe software from the internet
20:09:46 <ais523_> and just installed it on lots of computers
20:09:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't read when you write one word per line
20:09:50 <ais523_> without knowing what it did
20:09:57 <ehird> AnMaster: good, then maybe you'll stop talking
20:10:02 <AnMaster> just write multiple per line instead, it works much better
20:10:02 <ais523_> ehird: agree with AnMaster, it's very hard to read one-word-per-line comments
20:10:10 <AnMaster> so I'll ignore those line you said there instead
20:13:33 <ehird> unlike you I have a sense of humour, so that is unlikely.
20:13:40 <oerjan> AnMaster: at least he would have to work for it :D
20:14:22 <AnMaster> oerjan, not really, a script to rotate text would be a one and a half minute hack at most
20:14:37 <ehird> See a-b, 2008. Old.
20:14:40 <ehird> Uninteresting. Whatever.
20:15:12 <ais523_> oerjan: Agora went through a period where people were using all sorts of weird character orders
20:15:25 <ais523_> in the end, Goethe just posted a completely randomly-ordered anagram of eir message
20:16:49 <ehird> wonder if yi builds
20:21:17 <comex> http://code.google.com/p/shedskin/
20:21:20 <comex> hey, anyone seen that?
20:22:18 <ehird> it supports only a retarded subset of python, and its own extensions
20:22:23 <ehird> andi t's not even that fast and it's crap
20:22:28 <ehird> and you haev to write statically typed python.
20:22:44 <comex> I wonder how it compares to translated RPython and Cython
20:22:44 <ehird> Also, not all Python features, such as nested functions and variable numbers of arguments
20:23:02 <comex> it only mentions cpython and psyco
20:24:47 <comex> (how fast/slow is python-compiled-by-cython compared to cpython?)
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20:36:35 <ehird> Deewiant: how do you enable profiling libs when compiling ghc
20:36:37 <ehird> or do you not need to
20:36:48 <Deewiant> Compiling with GHC or compiling GHC
20:37:13 <Deewiant> If the latter, it's probably in mk/config.mk
20:37:33 <ehird> # In addition, the RTS is built in some further variations. Ways that
20:37:34 <ehird> # make sense here:
20:37:38 <ehird> # thr_p : threaded profiled
20:37:40 <ehird> # debug : debugging (compile with -g for the C compiler, and -DDEBUG)
20:37:42 <ehird> # debug_p : debugging profiled
20:37:45 <ehird> # thr_debug : debugging threaded
20:37:46 <ehird> # thr_debug_p : debugging threaded profiled
20:37:49 <ehird> # t: ticky-ticky profiling
20:37:50 <ehird> # debug_t: debugging ticky-ticky profiling
20:37:55 <ehird> debugging ticky-ticky profiling XD
20:41:37 <oerjan> ticky-ticky profiling is wicked icky
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21:01:39 <ehird> Yay, GHC is on the path to compiling.
21:01:44 <ehird> God, this is way too hard. bloody bootstrapping.
21:01:48 <ehird> Awesome in theory, shit in practice.
21:02:41 <ehird> If there's one thing I need after all this it's some efficiency.
21:02:57 <ehird> cabal-bin: Cannot find the program 'ghc-pkg' at '' or on the path
21:02:58 <ehird> make[1]: *** [bootstrapping.conf] Error 1
21:02:58 <ehird> make: *** [stage1] Error 2
21:04:34 <ehird> It's like ten thousand spoons.
21:09:32 <ehird> Let's try that again.
21:10:20 <ehird> So ais523_, tell ,me how much you hate bootstrapping.
21:10:38 <ais523_> after all, it seems to work on CLC-INTERCAL, at least on UNIX
21:10:40 <ehird> I see, you are a ghc-compilation-virgin.
21:10:52 <ais523_> although there were line ending trouble when I tried to port CLC-INTERCAL to Windows
21:11:01 <ais523_> ehird: I can get a binary package of it, why would I need to compile it/
21:11:12 <ehird> ais523_: You should try it anyway; then you'll hate people.
21:11:48 <ais523> ehird: which version are you trying to build?
21:11:59 <ehird> With a bootstrapping binary of 6.8.2
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21:12:12 <ehird> Anyway, I have these weird obsession: if it's a tool I feel I'll use an awful lot and depend on; I compile it myself.
21:12:43 <ehird> So far, though, it seems to be working.
21:13:08 <ehird> And after this, I can trash my icky hacked-with bootstrap compiler and the source tree, and be left with a clean, solid ghc 6.10.1
21:13:11 <Slereah> What's the lambda parameter in python to say 'any number of argument'?
21:13:17 <ehird> And if I want to upgrade, I can just use my own damn ghc to compile it.
21:14:20 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon <- The guy who invented this was a psycho
21:15:09 <ehird> Ah, my computer is whirring. That means it is doing things quickly.
21:15:24 <ehird> 84% CPU used. Very good.
21:15:37 <Slereah> <function <lambda> at 0x015EF030>
21:15:45 <ehird> You have to call it.
21:16:20 <ehird> Hey, I wonder why my other CPU isn't getting in on the fun
21:16:44 <fizzie> "My other core is a Porsche."
21:17:02 <ehird> My other core is also an Intel.
21:17:19 <ehird> …I want a sticker saying that
21:17:54 <ehird> "Hey guys, check out this ASCII Mandelbrot Set I made [ASCII]"
21:18:01 <ehird> Even brainfuck can do that in a few lines, goddamn.
21:18:07 <ehird> Why are you so, proggit?
21:18:08 <Slereah> 'p':lambda x,y,*a:a[x] < fuck you y you useless piece of shit
21:18:11 <ais523> I'm compiling 6.8.2 atm
21:18:32 <ehird> ais523: with which ghc
21:19:08 <ehird> if it's anything other than 'a binary build in the same tree', uninstall it and try again.
21:19:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:22:24 <ais523_> I think it's building from the C source
21:22:29 <ais523_> ghc has a portable-C backend
21:22:32 <ehird> that's absolutely not recommended
21:22:38 <ehird> in fact, you're specifically told not to do that in the build guide
21:22:59 <ais523_> well, how could it build without a version of ghc installed already
21:23:04 <ehird> that's why you have to get one.
21:23:11 <ehird> although you do it in tree, not installed.
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21:24:35 <ais523_> ehird: well, it's not as if compiling things is tricky on a Debian-based system
21:24:41 <ais523_> it's the same commands no matter what you're compiling
21:24:51 <ehird> not with an in tree ghc binary
21:25:02 <ais523_> and it always works, it's considered a critical bug to release a passage where it doesn't
21:25:10 <ehird> anyone saying that works without hacking and pain is full of shit because it's not that easy to compile ghc
21:25:31 <ehird> and compiling from the c is totally not comparable
21:26:09 <ais523_> ah, it seems to be compiling from /usr/bin/ghc6
21:26:27 <ehird> yep, that's an already installed build
21:26:30 <ehird> so that doesn't count
21:26:37 <ehird> that'll be what it's like after I have this build and want to upgrade
21:26:39 <ais523_> so I'm compiling 6.8.2 using 6.8.2
21:26:45 <ehird> the situation is compiling it from scratch using a bootstrap without isntalling it
21:26:48 <ais523_> do you want me to build the svn version using my already installed build?
21:26:54 <ehird> that is also not comparable
21:27:26 <ais523_> well, you're trying to do something impossible, I think
21:27:38 <ais523_> which is to install ghc which is written in a language you don't have a compiler for
21:27:46 <ais523_> without installing or otherwise obtaining a compiler for that language
21:27:48 <ehird> i've just told you
21:27:51 <ehird> you DOWNLOAD A GHC BINARY
21:27:54 <ehird> unpack it and DON'T INSTALL IT
21:27:56 <ehird> then you DOWNLOAD THE SOURCE
21:28:05 <ehird> ais523_: for values of ridiculous equal to the only supported method
21:28:18 <ehird> and for values of ridiculous equal to that's exactly what bootstrapping is
21:28:32 <ais523_> it's ridiculous because you can build it from source
21:28:39 <ais523_> requiring a binary's ridiculous because you couldn't port it
21:28:43 <ehird> yes, you can port it
21:28:50 <ais523_> sane bootstrap methods involve a portable backend
21:29:13 <ais523_> as in, you use ghc to translate ghc into C, then compile the C on someone else's system
21:29:13 <ehird> great! now you have to write two copies of the compiler
21:29:15 <ehird> and keep them in sync
21:29:25 <ais523_> err, no, just two backends
21:29:27 <ehird> ais523_: er... why
21:29:41 <ehird> you use ghc to compile ghc for $PLATFORM, then you copy that ghc over to the platform, and use it to compile ghc
21:29:50 <ehird> it's how you port gcc, too
21:30:02 <ais523_> that requires ghc to have a working backend for that platform already
21:30:11 <ehird> ais523_: no it doesn't
21:30:14 <ehird> because you write one, then do that
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21:31:42 <ehird> 20:30 ehird: ais523_: no it doesn't
21:31:42 <ehird> 20:30 ehird: because you write one, then do that
21:33:16 <ais523_> why would you need a backend at all if you only wanted to run ghci?
21:33:24 <ehird> ais523_: do you know what ghci does?
21:33:26 <ehird> it compiles then runs.
21:33:30 <ehird> you need a backend to do that.
21:33:44 <ais523_> a REPL invoking gcc is kind-of silly
21:33:48 <ehird> it doesn't invoke gcc
21:33:51 <ehird> it invokes ghc's api.
21:34:06 <ehird> as far as I know you can't do "ghci -fvia-C".
21:34:06 <ais523_> I thought ghc compiled to machine-specific-C
21:34:11 <ais523_> and used a C compiler the rest of theway
21:34:15 <ehird> it compiles to native code via C--
21:34:22 <ehird> yes, there is -fvia-C
21:34:26 <ehird> but it isn't used any more
21:34:30 <ehird> as it produces worse code
21:34:35 <ehird> and has no advantages
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21:35:39 <Deewiant> The quality of the generated code depends on the program being compiled, -fvia-C is still better in some cases
21:35:47 <Deewiant> Or that's what people say, anyway; I never use it
21:35:59 <ehird> Yeah but it's being phased out
21:36:15 <Deewiant> True, but it's not completely gone yet
21:36:29 <ehird> My problem with bootstrapping is the Nuclear Catastrophe scenario
21:36:35 <ehird> suddenly, all your binaries are lost.
21:37:01 <ehird> also, it means your implementation is semantically em pty
21:37:08 <ehird> since it's defined only in terms of itself
21:37:12 <ais523_> err... why would you lose binaries and not simultaneously lose the sources to them?
21:37:15 <Deewiant> In that scenario binaries are not what I'd worry about :-P
21:37:30 <ehird> ais523_: because they're separate packages, and because of bitrot.
21:38:31 <ais523_> well, at least in CLC-INTERCAL the bytecode for the compiler is packaged together with the sources to it
21:38:43 <Deewiant> Anyway, all that means is that you should have the ability to build essentially your whole system given only the hardware
21:38:43 <ehird> say you lose all packages; just your coding tree is left
21:38:49 <ehird> I know it's not likely IRL
21:38:51 <Deewiant> If you're feeling lucky, you can assume you have a kernel
21:38:54 <ehird> It's just a feeling of brittleness
21:39:24 <Deewiant> So go learn some asm and put printouts of the Intel manuals in some secure location :-P
21:39:30 <ais523_> or would be if I actually coded on CLC-INTERCAL
21:39:50 <ais523_> ehird: would you feel happier if the binary was written entirely in plaintext?
21:40:04 <ehird> I have a plan to devise a bootstrapping system that requires the minimum amount of code duplication while retaining almost all expressivity
21:40:07 <ehird> I should implement it sometime
21:40:27 <ais523_> yes, simply compile to source rather than to binary
21:40:35 <Deewiant> And can it do anything useful? :-P
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21:40:51 <ehird> it's not nearly as brittle; it's very very sturdy in the face of generated-code loss
21:40:54 <ais523_> CLC-INTERCAL will have a decompiler, for instance, eventually
21:41:09 <ehird> ais523_: you're thinking on the completely wrong level, but this conversation is highly boring atm
21:41:10 <ais523_> ehird: what if you lose everything but the binary? can you generate sources from it?
21:41:13 <ais523_> that's a more common situation
21:41:44 <ehird> You could copy the source into the binary, I guess. But I don't care about common - I care about the theory and the irritating feeling of brittleness the other types of bootstrapping give me
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21:42:28 <Deewiant> Even unobfuscated binaries are practically impossible to reverse-engineer past a certain point of complexity
21:44:01 <ais523_> hmm... all programs should have a --quine switch
21:44:02 <ehird> Boy, this is taking a while.
21:44:03 <ais523_> which makes them into quines
21:45:53 <Deewiant> Rather, all compilers should have a compile-time option to embed the source and such an option
21:46:19 <ais523_> although it should be compile-time for the compiler, not for the thing it's compiling
21:47:15 <Deewiant> Well, there are contexts where embedding the source is something you don't want
21:47:28 <Deewiant> (Yes, even for open-source software)
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21:48:58 <Deewiant> Any embedded software, where the source code can well be too big to fit in the device it's runniing on :-P
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21:50:57 <ehird> Preprocessing executables for ghc-bin-6.10.1...
21:50:58 <ehird> Building ghc-bin-6.10.1...
21:50:58 <ehird> [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( Main.hs, dist-stage2/build/ghc/ghc-tmp/Main.o )
21:51:00 <ehird> Linking dist-stage2/build/ghc/ghc ...
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21:52:49 <ehird> make[2]: *** [doc.stage.2] Error 1
21:52:50 <ehird> make[1]: *** [stage2] Error 2
21:52:51 <ehird> make: *** [bootstrap2] Error 2
21:56:34 <oerjan> ais523: ghci normally compiles to bytecode, though
21:56:55 <ais523> oerjan: ah, that would make sense
21:56:59 <ais523> what runs the bytecode? ghci?
21:57:24 <oerjan> "By default, GHCi compiles Haskell source code into byte-code that is interpreted by the runtime system."
21:57:42 <ais523> well, that makes a lot more sense than what ehird was suggesting
21:57:47 <ais523> it makes it an actual REPL
21:58:05 <oerjan> it probably still is just a backend to that C-- thing, i assume
21:58:53 <oerjan> "GHCi can also compile Haskell code to object code: to turn on this feature, use the -fobject-code flag either on the command line or with :set"
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22:14:07 <ais523_> read compile run print loop
22:14:25 <AnMaster> ais523_, sounds pretty sane if you already have implemented a compiler for the language
22:14:48 <AnMaster> if you have there is no real good reason to also design a byte code compiler and an interpreter for that
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22:15:18 <Slereah_> [[['f', 'x'], 's(x)'], [['g', 'y'], 'f(y)']]
22:15:20 <AnMaster> or you could just use LLVM to be able to do either :)
22:15:22 <oerjan> the byte code compilation is supposedly faster
22:15:54 <AnMaster> oerjan, if it is faster to execute byte code suddenly, why does it compile anything at all in ghc?
22:16:16 <oerjan> native code is 10-20 times faster to execute
22:17:00 <AnMaster> anyway I would just use LLVM since with LLVM I could just use the built in functionality to compile to native, JIT it, or even interpret it
22:17:06 <oerjan> i failed at finding any specific information on how bytecode compilation differs from the native code paths
22:17:40 <oerjan> i don't have it installed, just web browsing
22:19:44 <AnMaster> oerjan, you don't have ghc installed?
22:19:58 <AnMaster> I thought you were a haskell fan?
22:20:33 <oerjan> well it is my favorite language, but i don't actually do that much programming
22:23:20 <Slereah_> eval(i[0][1]) < what ain't right in that expression?
22:24:16 <oerjan> well assuming i[0][1] is an appropriate string, i would think nothing
22:24:48 <Slereah_> it tells me there's a syntax error :o
22:25:15 <oerjan> well what does i[0][1] contain?
22:25:41 <oerjan> the syntax error might be from the string contents
22:25:45 <Slereah_> it contains a string, though it wouldn't know that since the program won't even run!
22:26:05 <lament> the error is somewhere else
22:26:12 <Slereah_> func[i[0][0]]=lambda eval(i[0][1]):eval(i[1])
22:26:23 <oerjan> no arguments to the lambda
22:26:34 <Slereah_> The argument is in the eval :(
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22:26:59 <lament> put the entire lambda inside the eval.
22:27:11 <lament> Though i have no idea why you would ever want to do whatever you're doing.
22:29:41 <Slereah_> it may works, but since python gives me "'g': <function <lambda> at 0x015ED3B0>", i'll have to try it.
22:30:17 <oerjan> i guess you'll need to be careful to get things evaluated when you want
22:30:39 <Slereah_> i don't care too much about the order in that particular case, though
22:31:17 <ais523> oh no, I just saw http://thedailywtf.com/Comments/Tax-Broke.aspx
22:31:23 <ais523> the oh no is due to zzo38 trying to comment on it
22:31:28 <oerjan> so, will "lambda " + i[0][1] + ":" + i[1] do?
22:31:55 <Slereah_> i forgot the function to turn functions into dic['function']
22:33:06 <ais523> I don't think the world's ready for xxo38
22:33:09 <Slereah_> i could do it in an extremely lazy way.
22:33:18 <Slereah_> And i don't mean lazy evaluation.
22:36:55 <Slereah_> y = y.replace('s(','').replace(')','').split(',')
22:37:08 <Slereah_> possibly non-working, but let's hope!
22:45:59 <Slereah_> Let's try the addition program!
22:46:47 <Slereah_> owait, i forgot to define the s(x) thingy first.
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23:39:09 <Slereah_> forgot the case where the function is defined twice :(
23:39:21 <Slereah_> this code is getting uglier with each exception
23:40:52 <ehird> Slereah_: yes, because your code is shit
23:40:58 <ehird> you shouldn't do eval like that
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23:42:23 <Slereah_> I assumed that since you though it was shit, you'd have a better idea.
23:43:07 <ehird> is my better idea.
23:43:28 <ehird> what the heck do you mean! just write it normally
23:43:49 <Slereah_> I'm afraid you'll have to define what "that" is a little better then
23:43:55 <Slereah_> I'm not too sure what you're talking about
23:45:16 <ehird> ... just write it as a normal interpreter
23:45:55 <Slereah_> So far that's the best way I found.
23:46:55 <ehird> I can't believe you don't know how to write an interpreter
23:46:59 <ehird> It's so intuitive I can't even explain it
23:47:24 <Slereah_> I can do okay with machines that work step by step.
23:47:36 <Slereah_> It's the whole function definition that's causing me troubles.
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23:53:19 <Slereah_> I should rewrite it from the start and not forget shit.
23:53:29 <Slereah_> But later. Now is sleepy time.
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