00:00:15 fizzie, I also bought my card quite late 00:00:31 Well.. 1½ year ago, at least 00:00:47 fi:liksa is a colloquialism of fi:palkka, which is en:salary; unfortunately that leaves the "ng" part unused, and there's that inter-word "-" too. 00:01:00 The actual usage of mine is pretty simple; the GBA card is just there so you can stick the SD card with the data on it in, see. It has a hole in the cartridge, you're meant to put videos/pictures etc on it. 00:01:11 So then you put the max media launcher in the DS slot, and it reads the card and runs it. 00:01:45 That's the passme way thingy? 00:01:51 Yeah; but less "raw". 00:01:54 http://www.maxconsole.net/?mode=news&newsid=7100 Max media launcher 00:02:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBA_Movie_Player 00:02:08 I do remember seeing that combination mentioned. 00:02:20 Back when I was considering what sort of hardware to get. 00:02:32 I don't think I've ever used the GBA slot on my DS :\ 00:02:39 Then I just decided to go with the NDS-slot-only solution, even though that doesn't let you run GBA stuff on it. 00:02:41 But I still want it there 00:02:46 Yeah, I have a GBA SP so I play gameboy advance games on that 00:02:53 It's lighter and stuff. 00:03:02 AnMaster: i assume "lich" is etymologically related 00:03:08 oerjan, ?? 00:03:10 My brother has a GBA SP, so I play GBA stuff on it 00:03:13 to what? 00:03:14 Also works 00:03:22 >_< 00:03:23 "lik" 00:03:26 ah 00:03:27 maybe 00:03:31 "Old English līċ. Cognate with Dutch lijk, German Leiche, Swedish/Norwegian/Danish lik." 00:03:33 do you need EVERYTHING explained? 00:03:39 :D 00:03:42 The original GBA was pretty silly-looking. 00:03:44 I much prefer the SP 00:03:49 Nah :\ 00:03:53 btw what is "lich" in Swedish? I mean, when talking about the fantasy monster 00:04:00 I had a GBA Original, I liked it 00:04:01 "lik" wouldn't work 00:04:03 Got stolen 00:04:18 oerjan, explained? 00:04:43 :( 00:04:46 ;P 00:04:50 huh, the gba movie player lets you play NES games on a gba 00:04:52 * oerjan swats AnMaster to within an inch of his life -----### 00:04:53 I should try that sometime 00:05:01 heh 00:05:08 tyda couldn't translate, lexin couldn't, wiki couldn't 00:05:15 There's a NES emulator for DS, though? 00:05:21 fizzie: Well, probably. 00:05:23 I think so 00:05:33 Also, the pokemon rpgs are far too addictive. :x 00:05:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:05:34 NesDS, yes. Very imaginative name. 00:05:49 Wiki has a nice collection of DS HB stuff 00:05:49 I got a glitch in my pokemon sapphire game that I worked a lot on; it just wouldn't advance to the next stage of the game. 00:05:52 That was pretty irritating. 00:06:13 Oh, and on the topic of pseudomath, I used to try and fit uncountable sets into countable ones. 00:06:13 ehird: were you messing with the GBA/DS you were playing it on? 00:06:16 ais523: nope. 00:06:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nintendo_DS_homebrew 00:06:28 and how could you work a lot on it and yet not complete all the stages of the game? 00:06:31 I was just waiting for some stadium or other surrounded by water to unlock, which it should, but it wouldn't. 00:06:39 So I just wandered around trying to fix it; which I couldn't. 00:06:48 err... which stadium in particular? 00:06:57 I don't actually recall, this was years ago 00:07:06 I'll look it up 00:07:10 Also, the pokemon rpgs are far too addictive. :x <-- they are? never had any gba or ds or such. Nor any pokemon game or such. I was never into that stuff. 00:07:52 They are 00:08:04 Even when playing in an emulator :\ 00:08:33 Wonder how well nethack's DS port works. 00:09:02 Okay, even Bulbapedia doesn't have in-depth stadium info for each game. 00:09:15 FireFly: the fantasy meaning of "lich" seems to be from D&D according to wp 00:09:31 I didn't think Pokemon Sapphire had stadia 00:09:37 That's quite ancient, older than me 00:09:37 and me and my brother completely completed it between us 00:09:57 ais523: well, I'm not sure if it was a stadium or what 00:10:01 all I know is it was surrounded by water 00:10:05 and it was locked. 00:10:07 Hm 00:10:18 ehird: half the game of pokemon sapphire's surrounded by water 00:10:26 Yes. That's why that's not too helpful. 00:10:27 there was probably just something you were missing, rather than a glitch 00:10:51 ais523: Well, some other people who had reached that point a few times took a look over the game and couldn't find anything. 00:10:55 /shrug 00:11:30 Anyone know a GBA emulator for os x? 00:11:36 My brother got stuck in one of those DS pkmn dungeon games 00:11:51 Isn't VBA ported to the mac? 00:11:54 maybe 00:12:07 IIRC there's even a Wii version 00:12:23 only up to 1.7 00:12:26 ehird, Bulbapedia <-- what a silly name 00:12:31 AnMaster: what's silly about it 00:12:32 not really 00:12:34 bulbasaur -> bulbapedia 00:12:49 Yeah 00:12:52 ok... what the heck is "bulbasaur"? 00:12:56 ...a pokemon... 00:12:58 /facepalm 00:13:01 I see 00:13:06 One of.. The first 151 00:13:07 Even 00:13:14 bulbasaur is in fact #1 00:13:18 "I seee. And, you say this pokemon is the name of a pokemon site? Uhh huh. I'm sure." 00:13:19 which is the reason people pick it 00:13:21 VBA can mean: 00:13:21 Visual Basic for Applications, the application edition of Microsoft's Visual Basic programming language. 00:13:24 nonono :( 00:13:28 FireFly, I only know there is this yellow thing called pikatu or something like that 00:13:32 XDDD 00:13:33 chu* 00:13:34 end of pokemon knowledge 00:13:34 AnMaster: you're hilarious 00:13:35 there are over 450 of the things nowadays 00:13:38 don't ever stop being AnMaster 00:13:40 pikachu is #25 00:13:46 But really 00:13:46 oh... some red/white balls too right? 00:13:50 or something like that 00:13:51 XD XD XD 00:13:52 Cyndaquil > all 00:13:53 <33 00:13:56 AnMaster you're great. 00:13:58 And second gen > all 00:14:07 IMHO 00:14:13 -!- tromp has left (?). 00:14:14 ehird, I'm not joking. 00:14:18 :D 00:14:18 FireFly: I don't think I've ever met a Cyndaquil fan before... 00:14:22 i know. that's the best thing, AnMaster 00:14:22 :( 00:14:25 * FireFly is 00:14:42 cyndaquil looks like it's shitting fire out of its butt. just saying. 00:14:52 A friend did ascii-art versions of the first #134. 00:14:55 thought you might like to know 00:15:00 Er, s/#// 00:15:03 fizzie: does mooz still exist 00:15:03 Hm 00:15:19 ehird, I had a different upbrininging I guess, rather than watching TV one of my parents used to read aloud out of classical children books when I grew up. Stuff like that does affect you 00:15:23 ehird: I haven't heard anything in a couple of months, but I do suspect so, yes. 00:15:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:15:31 AnMaster: I didn't watch tv. 00:15:40 ehird: He's a married man nowadays, maybe not so much time for IRC. 00:15:43 ehird, well I did a tiny bit, not much. 00:15:47 I still have some of the TCG cards 00:15:50 fizzie: why would you do anything to reduce your possible IRC time 00:15:54 that's just illogical 00:16:04 ehird, you are too young to realise it I gues... 00:16:06 guess* 00:16:06 ehird: Also not sure if he's still in Finland, or in Peru now. 00:16:13 see? In Peru I bet IRC is outlawed. 00:16:15 What a stupid guy. 00:16:19 Does he live in bizarro world? 00:16:25 i bet he sleeps too 00:16:30 :D 00:16:31 why people sleep I will never figure out 00:16:38 'hur hur I'll just STOP IRCING that is a good thing to do' 00:16:40 dumbasse 00:16:41 s 00:16:54 It's good for your grades 00:17:07 what are grades good for, apart from getting jobs that siphon time off from irc. 00:17:15 well, a few jumped steps there 00:17:16 but you get the idea. 00:17:20 it's all an anti irc conspiracy. 00:17:28 so I googled for this "Cyndaquil" mentioned above... "It evolves into Quilava starting at level 14" <-- wth? That isn't how evolution works at all 00:17:30 Grades means good job means programming & IRCing means ?? means profit 00:17:34 ehird: you forgot ... PROFIT 00:17:43 I DIDN'T 00:17:44 profit is useless; just live on irc. 00:17:49 AnMaster: It's a game. 00:17:54 IRC time IS profit 00:17:57 FireFly: clever guy 00:17:59 AnMaster: Pokemon: That isn't how the real world works at all! 00:18:04 clearly this is some way to try to make evolution look silly 00:18:09 AnMaster: What, in Mario you can just jump several times your height then fly down really quickly. 00:18:13 That's not how gravity works at all! 00:18:14 Wtf! 00:18:40 it is a conspiracy from the intelligent design people... 00:18:48 ._. 00:19:02 AnMaster: i suppose "metamorphosis" is a better term 00:19:11 ehird, difference: everyone agrees gravity exists. While a lot of people disagrees about evolution... 00:19:14 AnMaster: Considering that creationists hate pokemon like the plague... 00:19:19 oerjan, yes that would be better 00:19:19 What, in you can jump in the air 00:19:22 Bad engine 00:19:23 also, nobody knowledgable about the topic at all denies evolution 00:19:25 ehird, they do? 00:19:32 ehird, true. 00:19:41 I didn't imply scientists denied it 00:19:45 AnMaster: yes. And the more rabid fundamentalist christians call it satanism/witchcraft etc taking creatures and battling them and evolving them and whatnot. 00:19:49 a lot of fundamentalists do however 00:19:54 Evilution. :) 00:20:09 AnMaster: Yes, well, fundamentalists say a lot of stupid things. 00:20:11 ehird, ok but that isn't the same sort of evolution at all... 00:20:27 I mean the pokemon evolution seems silly 00:20:28 It's just really fast evolution that happens in sprints. 00:20:39 Just imagine an animal constantly breeding with itself then dying, so fast that you don't even see it happen. 00:20:42 Then pokemon evolution makes sense. 00:20:44 It's a game! 00:20:49 ehird I suppose the God of evolution is involved? 00:21:01 FireFly: It's AnMaster! 00:21:12 AnMaster, have you seen Star Wars? 00:21:18 AnMaster: no, just after a certain level they morph into a higher species. 00:21:21 well, you can cancel it 00:21:21 IT IST'T REAL ;__; 00:21:30 FireFly, yes I have, too much space opera for my taste 00:21:32 FireFly: SPACE DOESN'T WORK LIKE THAT DAMMIT 00:21:32 s/IST/ISN 00:21:37 THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS HYPERSPACE 00:21:47 Etc etc 00:21:50 ALSO THE PROBABILITY OF EVERYONE SPEAKING ENGLISH IS SO VASTLY SMALL THAT— 00:21:56 physically Star Trek is as bad 00:22:00 Force, jumping in the air 00:22:03 or even worse 00:22:09 what about psychically 00:22:10 Hitting stuff with light :D 00:22:17 ehird, oh no 00:22:28 no "empaths" please... 00:22:53 This subject is quite dead now 00:22:59 ehird, about speaking English, I think HHGTG solves that in a neat way 00:23:07 :D 00:23:12 AnMaster: Yes. Also known as a cop out. 00:23:17 That's true, actually 00:23:32 ehird, well the babelfish is a rather nice idea, and of course it isn't realistic 00:23:44 Speaking of h2g2. 00:23:48 "I know that astrology isn't a science," said Gail. "Of course it isn't. 00:23:48 It's just an arbitrary set of rules like chess or tennis or, what's that 00:23:49 strange thing you British play?' 00:23:51 "Er, cricket? Self-loathing?" 00:23:52 it isn't realistic indeed 00:23:53 "Parliamentary democracy." 00:23:55 — Mostly Harmless 00:24:06 ehird, heh 00:24:16 ehird, does anyone understand the rules for cricket? 00:24:23 outside UK and AU possibly 00:24:25 I've seen it once 00:24:38 AnMaster: I seem to recall seeing some black people winning some sort of tournament. :-P 00:24:41 You have a ball, hit some three poles and run around 00:24:48 Can you tell I don't pay much attention to sport? 00:25:23 FireFly, was there any obvious rules? Like watching football you can quick soon figure out the point is to get the ball into a net at the opposite end of the plane 00:25:30 split in two teams 00:25:45 but from what I have seen of cricket it seems a bit more confusing 00:25:48 Uh oh. 00:25:51 Nothing obvious 00:25:53 The RSA shut down the factoring challenge. 00:25:55 ah 00:26:03 ehird, oh? 00:26:03 Guyz panic time nao 00:26:03 Like some odd variant of "brännboll" 00:26:11 ehird, yes... 00:26:11 they've cracked it :D 00:26:19 ehird, they did? 00:26:25 No 00:26:28 I was conspiracy theorizing 00:26:31 ah 00:26:34 Hitting ball with bat, running arounb poles 00:26:40 around* 00:26:40 ehird, so did they find the number or? 00:26:50 hm 00:26:51 err it's nothing to do with finding numbers 00:26:53 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA_numbers 00:27:07 FireFly, I don't know the rules of brännboll, it seemed rather confusing though 00:27:17 ...it's simple 00:27:28 it is? I have never been much for team sports 00:27:34 You get to play it all the time in school 00:27:38 Mandatory stuff 00:27:42 Brannboll? Basketball? 00:27:56 More like baseball 00:28:01 Ah. 00:28:08 Hitting ball far, running 00:28:12 "Brännboll (pronounced [ˈbrɛnbɔl]) is a game similar to rounders, baseball, lapta and pesäpallo" 00:28:17 Right. 00:28:41 But without fancy gloves 00:28:48 AnMaster: Anyway, us brits are actually truly awful at cricket. :P 00:29:02 pesäpallo? 00:29:03 what is that 00:29:07 what is google 00:29:10 Sounds finnish 00:29:14 well yeah 00:29:16 but what is it 00:29:16 Pesäpallo [pesæpɑlːo] (Swedish: Boboll, also referred to as "Finnish baseball") 00:29:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesäpallo 00:29:26 boboll? never heard of that 00:29:29 Bo = living 00:29:33 Me neither 00:29:39 FireFly, and yes I know what bo means 00:29:45 FireFly: is the ball autonomous? :P 00:29:47 I also know who he is ;) 00:29:54 Well, most likely ehird doesn't 00:29:59 And 00:30:10 ehird, err not that living, living as in house, dwelling 00:30:13 not as in alive 00:30:14 yeah 00:30:17 :( 00:30:20 "who he is ;)" wut 00:30:32 ehird, Bo is also a name in Swedish 00:30:38 o 00:30:57 We have lots of strange names 00:31:09 But I guess most languages has 00:31:20 Hm, have* 00:31:22 wasn't there some politician called Bo Lundgren? Or something 00:31:28 I think so 00:31:37 The.. leader of some party 00:31:50 hm google says moderaterna 00:31:53 *shrug* 00:31:53 I don't have to vote 'till next year 00:31:58 :\ 00:32:07 FireFly, 17? 00:32:12 heh 00:32:17 In August, es 00:32:19 yes* 00:32:22 never thought you were that young 00:32:27 "that young"? 00:32:29 "Bo Axel Magnus Lundgren (born July 11, 1947) is a Swedish politician. He is the former leader of the Moderate Party." 00:32:34 FireFly's always seemed like a teen to me? 00:32:41 To me too :D 00:32:49 ehird, more like 20 or so to me 00:32:53 I don't ever have to vote :P 00:32:54 :\ 00:33:07 ...but I _can_ in 3 years. 00:33:09 FireFly, how old would you say I am? (ehird: don't tell him) 00:33:16 Well, I don't HAVE to, but I can 00:33:16 he's 7 00:33:17 I vote 1,000 years. 00:33:18 * oerjan deports ehird to australia 00:33:21 AnMaster, like 20? 00:33:23 IIRC 00:33:27 FireFly, 19 00:33:29 I've seen it before 00:33:30 but close enough 00:33:31 Meh 00:33:32 Close 00:33:38 whoa, I can vote in 3 years. 00:33:41 that's scary. 00:33:44 As an aside, today is my 19th birthday... 00:33:45 ehird, err 13 + 3 = 16. Can you vote when 16?! 00:33:54 …err... I think so 00:33:55 in UK 00:33:58 Congratulations, pikhq 00:33:58 I don't pay much attention to that sort of stuff 00:34:01 ehird, here in Sweden it is 18 00:34:02 It might be 18 or something 00:34:07 pikhq, congrats 00:34:13 Whoo. 00:34:16 But adulthood is 16 in the UK i think 00:34:21 ehird, I hope it is 18, or I'm scared about UK 00:34:26 hmm 00:34:27 It is 18 00:34:28 Right 00:34:31 good thing 00:34:41 16 is when you can have sex and drink and stuff :P 00:34:53 Okay, so I can vote in 5 years; that's a little less scary 00:34:56 13 year old people shouldn't be doing J stuff :\ 00:35:05 FireFly: yeah dirty J 00:35:06 ehird, drink is 21 here I think 00:35:09 Or writing OO in perl 00:35:10 only consenting adults should be allowed to program in J 00:35:11 sex is probably 16 00:35:20 In Sweden? 00:35:28 FireFly, yeah 00:35:28 AnMaster: you should be scared about the UK anyway; considering we're heading to a nanny state 00:35:30 Sex is 15 years old IIRC 00:35:46 The age of consent for girls in Japan is 13; don't ask me how I know this. 00:35:59 ehird, it isn't like you are alone. I'm too busy being scared about FRA and IPRED and such here 00:36:07 don't have time to be scared about UK 00:36:14 Drinking.. It's 21 for buying (IIRC), but 18 for drinking in retaurants 00:36:27 FireFly, I see. I haven't done either yet anyway 00:36:28 Heh 00:36:28 AnMaster: Does your govt take 1984 as an instruction manual? 00:36:29 Ours does. 00:36:51 ehird, a lot of this is from EU level, so pretty much the same here I'm afraid 00:37:12 Brb 00:37:29 Brbd wr 00:37:38 Clearly the solution is to vote for the BNP. Err, maybe not. 00:37:43 bread wr? 00:37:53 ehird, BNP? 00:37:58 barbed wire 00:37:59 AnMaster: British National Party. 00:38:01 Bruttonationalprodukt? 00:38:03 Xenophobic fucks. 00:38:08 sure it isn't the other 00:38:12 that is what BNP means here 00:38:17 White-nationalist fascists. 00:38:21 They don't come much worse. 00:38:29 AnMaster: GNP in english 00:38:41 what does it stand for in English? 00:38:42 er wait 00:38:42 And, by the way, they're quite popular. 00:38:55 "In the 2005 UK general election, the BNP received 0.7% of the popular vote, giving it the eighth largest share of the vote, although it was fifth overall among English seats." 00:39:01 "also finishing fifth in the 2008 London mayoral election with 5.23% of the popular vote, as well as electing Mayoral candidate Richard Barnbrook to the Greater London Assembly" 00:39:04 ehird, what is the the thing you measure how rich a country is per capita? 00:39:11 the BNP is "committed to stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948. 00:39:12 BNP per capita in Swedish... 00:39:19 AnMaster: Gross national product; GNP 00:39:22 ah 00:39:23 right 00:39:29 ehird, in Swedish we call that BNP 00:39:34 "It advocates the repeal of all anti-discrimination legislation, and restricts party membership to "indigenous British ethnic groups deriving from the class of ‘Indigenous Caucasian’"." 00:39:48 "Its publicity has often conflated Islam with Marxism." 00:40:25 heh 00:40:31 that's crazy 00:40:42 I'd laugh if it wasn't serious. 00:41:00 "The party supports animal welfare and environmental policies, supporting Greenpeace in its fight against Japanese whaling ships and the RSPCA's campaign against the docking of dogs' tails." 00:41:02 Hahaha. 00:41:07 Are they trying to appear humane or something? 00:41:11 sounds somewhat like Sverigedemokraterna (a similar party here in Sweden, name means "Swedish democrats", nothing like that....) 00:41:27 [[When asked in 1993 if the BNP was racist, its deputy leader Richard Edmonds said, "We are 100 per cent racist, yes".[94] Founder John Tyndall proclaimed that "Mein Kampf is my bible".]] 00:41:35 Mein fucking Kampf. 00:41:49 It's like a parody that someone forgot was a joke. 00:42:05 "is a Swedish political party that describes itself as a nationalist movement which opposes all forms of racism. " 00:42:06 lol wut 00:42:16 wait, they're.. serious? 00:42:17 ehird, huh... Is it "per cent" or "percent" in English? 00:42:22 FireFly: The BNP? Yes. 00:42:26 AnMaster: either. Latter is more common. 00:42:29 Strange guys 00:42:44 the former feels more british 00:42:56 To me, at least 00:43:14 ehird, "is a Swedish political party that describes itself as a nationalist movement which opposes all forms of racism. " <-- that is what they say, they are racists though... 00:43:16 jolly good, old chap 00:43:20 The British fall into three categories: grumpy and self-hating, hateful fucks and smug assholes. 00:43:24 Fun fun. 00:43:31 Where are you? 00:43:43 what about the good old jolly chaps? 00:43:50 AnMaster: They went extinct. 00:43:58 ehird, oh I see. When did that happen? 00:44:03 FireFly: Probably the latter. :P 00:44:15 AnMaster: It's arguable whether they ever existed. 00:44:16 [[Ellis called the BNP "a bit too socialist" for his liking]] 00:44:19 LOL WUT 00:44:24 FireFly, ehird is definitely not the first one.. 00:44:30 not sure about the two latter ones 00:44:31 Hm 00:44:58 I'm supposed to sleep 00:45:15 FireFly: Didn't you learn anything? 00:45:18 That removes IRC time. 00:45:21 :D 00:45:28 But it DOES improve grades 00:45:29 Hm 00:45:33 Yes but 00:45:38 Lessons tomorrow... 00:45:41 Grades only contribute to less IRC! 00:45:57 Physics, programming, lunch, stuff 00:46:13 Chemics.. What is it called in english? :\ 00:46:17 And german 00:46:18 chemistry 00:46:19 chemistry 00:46:21 chemistry 00:46:22 Ah 00:46:23 Meh 00:46:25 Ah 00:46:27 Mh 00:46:28 >_> 00:46:29 Meh 00:46:31 >_> 00:46:37 Should've known 00:46:37 Ahmed 00:46:42 Should've known 00:46:43 Ahmed 00:47:06 >_______________________ [...] ____> 00:47:14 >_______________________ [...] ____> 00:47:37 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:47:45 23:47 oklofok has left IRC (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) 00:47:47 shit. 00:48:08 a complete disaster 00:48:09 shit. 00:48:14 ehird, said connection reset by peer here... freenode is buggy 00:48:15 shit. 00:48:17 and a great loss to irckind 00:48:17 shit. 00:48:26 ...ping? 00:48:30 ...ping? 00:48:34 3 secs 00:48:35 err 00:48:37 what? 00:48:38 gnop 00:48:40 Slow :( 00:48:44 pang 00:48:51 you know what woudl be cool. 00:48:58 (to quote erlang when net_adm:ping() fails) 00:49:10 * AnMaster always found the "pang" reply funny 00:49:16 no no no 00:49:18 päng 00:49:18 the correct one is 00:49:23 pång 00:49:28 ping, pong, aiotjaeintioa 00:49:39 [00:48:55] you know what woudl be cool. 00:49:40 Tell me 00:49:47 ehird, "pang" is the sound of a gun shot in Swedish (as written) 00:49:47 you don't know? 00:49:47 the latter being an ancient polynesian curse 00:49:59 ehird, somewhat like "bang" 00:50:01 in English 00:50:05 heh 00:50:17 Hm 00:50:28 Twisted Russian Roulette: The other 5 cartridges make a sign saying "BANG!" pop out. 00:50:32 "bom" is more like "boom", I guess 00:50:47 ehird, certainly safer one 00:50:55 AnMaster: no, the 6th contains a real bullet/ 00:50:58 oh ok 00:50:59 :D 00:51:01 not safer 00:51:15 I have seen it on irc, where it was replaced with kick 00:51:19 from some bot 00:51:26 trazer has that 00:51:28 of #vjn fame 00:51:31 a supybot with loads of addons I think 00:51:32 One bullet, 5 signs saying "Try again" 00:51:39 trazer is one huge java class 00:51:39 XD 00:51:40 ehird, probably had all modules loaded 00:51:41 There's your safety 00:51:46 ehird, heh? 00:51:49 one huge? I see 00:51:53 AnMaster: yeah no other classes 00:51:56 just one big honking class 00:51:59 presumably with like 5 methods 00:52:09 Ouch 00:52:09 ehird, someone forced to use a class because java is OO? 00:52:12 i know this because oklopol told me :-D 00:52:16 I want my watch :( 00:52:24 AnMaster: no, probably someone who isn't too good at programming but knows java :P 00:52:47 ehird, sure it wasn't someone trying to do imperative in java? 00:52:50 with no OO 00:52:57 mhm 00:53:05 fairly sure because I've talked to the guy and he's not that type :P 00:53:38 it's imperative that your objects are functional 00:54:02 "This is available for a variety of operating systems like Linux,[2] BSD, Mac OS X,[3] Xbox,[4] and BeOS." 00:54:04 @ VBA 00:54:16 Yes. I know. 00:54:20 Oki 00:54:39 oerjan, sigh 00:54:42 * FireFly should sleep, but then ehird kills said person 00:54:45 oerjan, it wasn't even good 00:54:58 FireFly, VBA? 00:55:12 VisualBoy Advance 00:55:15 GBA emu 00:55:18 ah yes /usr/games/bin/VisualBoyAdvance indeed 00:55:23 I have it installed in fact 00:55:24 ...GBA = GameBoy Advance 00:55:31 Ah 00:55:50 FireFly, VBA == Visual Basic for MS Office to me 00:55:57 or whatever it was called 00:56:05 AnMaster: but was it functional? 00:56:05 Why for Office? 00:56:06 what did the A stand for btw? 00:56:21 FireFly, I only ever seen it for word/excel macros? 00:56:22 Hm 00:56:23 for Applications. 00:56:24 "Visual Basic for Applications, the application edition of Microsoft's Visual Basic programming language." 00:56:25 is it used elsewhere? 00:56:26 Yeah 00:56:28 I see 00:56:32 didn't know that 00:56:37 Hm 00:56:43 what other apps use it? 00:56:48 oerjan, not really no 00:56:53 VBScript is pain 00:57:00 FireFly, isn't that a third one 00:57:04 AnMaster: are you sure you are being objective about this? 00:57:05 different from VBA? 00:57:11 Propably 00:57:15 oerjan, now that one was slightly better 00:57:17 It's ASP stuff 00:57:19 still rather bad 00:57:21 Igly syntax 00:57:30 s/I/U 00:57:33 FireFly, well yes Basic is ugly 00:57:40 It's worse :| 00:57:58 At least with TI-BASIC it feels esoish 00:57:59 I have seen VBA I know it is worse 00:58:07 FireFly, TI-BASIC is pretty nice 00:58:14 at least the way done on TI-83+ 00:58:22 doesn't feel much like basic at all 00:58:25 Though the TI-82 stats is slooow 00:58:32 never used TI-82 00:58:37 and yes it is slow 00:58:50 IIRC it was a bit worse than the GBO, in most aspects 00:59:03 GB Original, that is 00:59:05 GBO? 00:59:06 what is that 00:59:10 GameBoy 00:59:12 ._. 00:59:15 FireFly, GB Magnum? 00:59:17 yum! 00:59:29 Hm 00:59:51 FireFly, hey you were supposed to get the joke... 00:59:55 not that anyone else would 00:59:57 I did... 00:59:59 but any Swede would 01:00:00 But 01:00:07 not sure about oerjan 01:00:19 Why was i thinking about the gun thingy brand before associating it to the Ice cream? 01:00:22 And 01:00:25 FireFly, also what does GameBoy have to do with TI-82? 01:00:35 FireFly, no idea... 01:00:45 I would think about icecream first 01:00:46 It's from 1980, it's supposed to suck 01:00:49 And 01:00:54 The calc is worse 01:01:16 I guess I'll have to learn ASM 01:01:21 FireFly, a game boy and a TI-82 are not the same sort of things, One you play games on, the other you calculate things on 01:01:33 But still 01:01:34 FireFly, which is best, that book or this chair? 01:01:40 Wel 01:01:41 l 01:01:42 they're both computers. 01:01:57 ehird, ok, which is best: this chair or that table? 01:02:03 they are both furniture 01:02:09 That's not a good comparison, AnMaster 01:02:15 That's like saying a cellphone isn't the same as a camera 01:02:19 ehird, nor is gameboy to a calculator 01:02:25 FireFly, they aren't the same... 01:02:31 Even if it in fact is, to a certain degree 01:02:54 So, I tried to come up with an elegant way to unify shell syntax. 01:02:56 Many cellphones are of higher quality than my camera 01:02:57 FireFly, some cellphones does have cameras built in nowdays yes... 01:03:02 Camera wise 01:03:02 AnMaster: all, not some 01:03:08 I came up with a nice way 01:03:15 It made these two snippets identical: 01:03:17 each * rm 01:03:21 each * {x| rm x} 01:03:23 er 01:03:24 each * {x| rm $x} 01:03:34 and it unified function definition and aliases 01:03:42 ehird, No I remember reading recently about some heavy duty one (as in they ran it over with a truck and it still worked) with no camera or such 01:03:44 And let you do things like this: 01:03:53 actually it must have been on radio, some tech program 01:04:00 find . -exec {x| echo $x; rm $x} \{\} \; 01:04:01 comparing some heavy duty phones 01:04:03 And it would work 01:04:07 including running over them with trucks 01:04:11 ehird, ^ 01:04:18 so not all have camera 01:04:19 wrong 01:04:29 Most 01:04:33 Not all, but many 01:04:36 AnMaster: all, not some 01:04:42 yes that was incorrect though 01:04:51 fuck offfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff; corner cases are irrelevant 99% of the time 01:04:52 "most, not some" would have been better 01:04:55 that's why they're corner. cases. 01:05:00 "all" does not mean strictly every single on 01:05:01 e 01:05:04 ehird, correctness is more important than simpleness 01:05:15 …if you're a douchebag. 01:05:17 don't follow the worse is better design 01:05:26 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-vba-163.html 01:05:30 It IS ugly 01:05:32 But 01:05:48 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-vbscript-801.html 01:05:52 Is also ugly 01:06:50 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-erlang-1482.html <-- beautiful 01:06:59 that is not beautiful 01:07:00 that is ugly 01:07:01 concurrent! 01:07:11 ehird, beautiful and concurrent! 01:07:25 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-haskell-1613.html 01:07:26 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-haskell-1070.html 01:07:30 those are beautiful. 01:07:35 in syntax and concept 01:07:44 ehird, they are rather nice yes, but are they concurrent? NO 01:07:54 AnMaster: You can implement haskell concurrently 01:07:57 automatically 01:07:59 with no declarations 01:08:05 there's nothing in the standard forbidding it 01:08:13 ehird, that one http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-erlang-1031.html ? 01:08:27 it is simple and clean 01:08:28 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-whitespace-154.html 01:08:31 it's purely functional; you can automatically memoize functions, parallelize expressions, ... 01:08:34 "Highlight it, and you can see cool patterns" 01:08:39 People are smart 01:08:40 and no, it's not simple and clean compared to the haskell one 01:09:18 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-fjoelnir-259.html 01:09:26 Asztal_: "GRUNNUR" 01:10:43 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-fjoelnir-259.html <-- wow 01:10:47 "[99,98..0]" <-- THAT is nice 01:10:51 AnMaster: "GRUNNUR". 01:11:12 ehird, I don't know Islandic 01:11:18 so I can't translate 01:11:25 Yes, well, "GRUNNUR" anyway. 01:11:51 það er góður. 01:12:06 that's about as much Icelandic as I speak. 01:12:13 Asztal_, what does it mean? 01:12:21 Asztal_: you forgot "GRUNNUR". 01:12:49 I said "that is good", I think. "GRUNNUR" means "BASE" or something like that, it's a module name 01:13:03 I know what "GRUNNUR" means. 01:13:07 But it's still "GRUNNUR". 01:13:09 you do? 01:13:33 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-befunge-88.html 01:13:36 http://www.hi.is/~snorri/087133-03/fjolnir.pdf <- one day, I will translate this. 01:13:37 Beutiful 01:13:47 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-j-1.html 01:13:57 Asztal_: That may be the only text better than SICP. 01:14:05 FireFly, oh yes, much nicer than the haskell one 01:14:06 indeed 01:14:16 Well 01:14:30 For esolangs, that is 01:14:52 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-befunge-1602.html <-- err heh 01:15:33 Hm 01:15:53 Asztal_: you should XOR all the letters in it with SICP. 01:16:02 And produce an impossible book. 01:17:26 It's only past midnight in Britain :( 01:17:55 also, iceland 01:19:22 ehird, http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-apple-script-32.html 01:19:28 that is why apple script sucks 01:19:41 oerjan: does Icelandic vaguely make sense to you, with it being so close to Norwegian? 01:19:47 AnMaster: I never said I like applescript. 01:19:49 IT's just useful. 01:19:51 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 01:20:29 ehird, I still thinks it is the most horrible non-esolang out there apart from possibly COBOL 01:20:33 that I know of 01:20:42 Asztal_: very vaguely 01:21:13 * ehird invents evilfix. 01:21:14 ((5+7)*4)/(1*4)+3 01:21:14 -> 01:21:17 3+1*4/~4*5+7 01:21:23 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:21:26 Asztal_, Islandic is very different from other Scandinavian languages in fact. The place have been a lot more isolated, thus the language developed in a different directly 01:21:29 direction* 01:21:31 It's right-to-left associative infix, but OP~ reverses the argument order. 01:21:41 Do you like my specification for vectoring in INTERCAL? 01:22:26 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-apl-715.html <-- random garbage? 01:22:34 it doesn't even look like APL 01:22:36 AnMaster: get fonts. 01:22:41 also maybe wron gencoding 01:22:42 yes 01:22:43 looks like iso 01:22:47 ehird, I think encoding fails 01:23:25 You can also look at the comments on that beer program, for better lisibility 01:24:21 But I defined the VECTOR operator now, which is used for doing some weird kind of vector computing (not quite) 01:24:38 I also defined the commands for dynamically writing the source-codes 01:25:21 zzo38, couldn't this be done with CREATE? 01:26:08 CREATE is used to modify the compiler that compiles source-code into byte-code. But the APPEND is used to add source-code to the end, which is then compiled. 01:26:23 zzo38, I meant ick style CREATE 01:26:27 not CLC style CREATE 01:26:52 that's quite different 01:27:07 iirc 01:27:13 CLCLC-INTERCAL doesn't use ick style create except in compatibility mode, so you need new commands and operators if you want to use it outside of compatibility mode 01:27:22 ah ok 01:27:32 zzo38, I have ick here but not CLC 01:27:50 You can still access the manual for CLC even if you don't have it. 01:27:54 zzo38, any chance of seeing an IFFI for CLCLC? :D 01:28:06 guess it would be too hard 01:28:08 What's an IFFI? 01:28:28 zzo38, ais523's ick<->befunge thingy 01:28:41 IFFI is the name of the fingerprint on the befunge side 01:28:54 the only current implementation is for ick and cfunge 01:29:06 but it could be done between other implementations too I guess 01:29:15 it uses the link in C code thingy of ick 01:29:19 in that implementation 01:29:49 but it should be possible to do it against other befunge and INTERCAL implementations 01:29:54 see the ick docs for details 01:30:34 zzo38, btw I'm the maintainer of cfunge in case you try it and run into issues with that part. (also time to release the next version soon, probably next week or so) 01:30:50 (need to merge in some experimental branches) 01:30:55 But someone suggested making some weird vector computing in CLCLC-INTERCAL, so I wrote that part of the specification now. Do you like the way I have done it? 01:31:07 zzo38, it is rather intercalish 01:31:29 a raytracer in j would be awesome 01:31:48 zzo38, and I suspect you now INTERCAL way better than I do. (I only know it on the surface and have trouble reading programs in it) 01:31:51 It certainly is rather intercalish! 01:32:03 zzo38, I'm not sure how it works though 01:32:20 If you have a specific question please ask! 01:32:45 zzo38, is it somewhat like the zip operation or more like fold? 01:32:49 or a zipfold? 01:32:50 not sure 01:33:41 zzo38: have you ever programmed in J? I think you'd like it. http://jsoftware.com/ 01:33:47 I guess you could use it to zip or fold or zipfold, but that isn't what the operator does on its own 01:33:50 it's an APL descendent based on vector/matrix operations 01:33:53 with really short code 01:34:02 you could get some ideas for the vector intercal from it; it's pretty esoteric 01:34:06 ehird, where does one get a free implementation of it? 01:34:13 or where did you get your? 01:34:14 AnMaster: http://jsoftware.com/stable.htm 01:34:20 It's not open source, but meh. 01:34:31 ehird, freeware? 01:34:33 Yes 01:34:37 mhm 01:35:52 "If used in an expression on the left side of a WHILE statement, it will execute the WHILE statement for each pair of one element from the left array and one element from the right array." 01:36:17 does this mean: (a b c) (1 2 3) -> (a 1) (b 2) (c 3)? 01:36:18 or 01:36:29 Yes, and the .# special register is an error if the indices are not the same. 01:36:33 does this mean: (a b c) (1 2 3) -> (a 1) (a 2) (a 3) (b 1) (b 2) ... 01:36:43 The second one. 01:36:58 But what are the best words to make that clear? 01:37:05 zzo38, so combinations? 01:37:09 It means! 01:37:11 Night 01:37:15 That's it 01:37:22 or permutations? 01:37:25 fizzie, night 01:37:25 err 01:37:27 FireFly, ^ 01:37:28 ;P 01:37:30 :D 01:37:43 Taking mistabcompleting to a new level 01:37:46 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:38:20 zzo38, so it combines the list in all possible ways? 01:38:31 well 01:38:40 without caring about order possibly 01:39:13 Yes, it combines the list in all possible ways. The #0 index corresponds to the current element, while .# is a number of the current index but only if both indices are the same. Otherwise it is an error. 01:39:33 I see 01:39:34 heh 01:39:40 It does it in the proper order given. So reversing the operands will change the order a bit 01:40:15 I gave four examples and told you which ones are errors 01:40:16 zzo38, would the example (a b c) (1 2 3) -> (a 1) (a 2) (a 3) (b 1) (b 2) ... include (1 b) (1 c) and such as well? 01:40:26 No, it wouldn't. 01:40:29 ah 01:42:01 For example you could have DO .1 <- ',1 SUB #0'~',2 SUB #0' DO READ OUT .1 01:42:07 How to allow division by zero: disallow multiplication by zero. 01:42:17 That would output the result of selecting from each possible pair. 01:42:48 err *reads* 01:42:51 hm ok 01:43:03 zzo38, didn't you forget VECTOR in there? 01:43:28 or was that not supposed to be a VECTOR example? 01:43:30 The commands I listed have to be part of a subroutine called with VECTOR. Otherwise ,1 SUB #0 is an error. 01:43:38 ah right 01:43:44 true 01:43:44 zzo38: You should post CLCLC-INTERCAL to alt.lang.intercal; most/all intercal programmers read it 01:44:19 ehird, hm how would that work with division by zero? 01:44:37 AnMaster: Well, you can't check if the result is right, so people have to trust whatever you say the result is :P 01:45:17 interesting, I just found out that TI-83+ evaluates while it parses 01:45:23 And you could also have DO .# WHILE ,1 SUB #0 <- ',1 SUB .#'~',2 SUB ".#~#45"' 01:45:26 simple: 0^-1 )) 01:45:34 gave division by zero instead of syntax error 01:45:37 eviluation 01:46:05 zzo38, err? too tired to work that out 01:46:39 zzo38: did you read what i said about j? 01:46:47 Still you have to use the DO .# etc also inside of a subroutine called using VECTOR operator. 01:47:07 Yes I read it and maybe I will look more later, but not right now. 01:47:25 hm does INTERCAL have a COME TO yet? 01:47:47 if it doesn't, it must be invented, and "COME TO YOUR SENSES" must work. 01:47:55 hah 01:48:05 what about GO FROM as well 01:48:24 hmm 01:48:30 GO FROM _ PASSING _ ON YOUR WAY TO _ 01:48:32 :D 01:48:49 GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL DO NOT COLLECT 200 POUNDS 01:48:50 for multi jump non-local control transfer 01:48:51 OK, what does GO FROM _ PASSING _ ON YOUR WAY TO _ command do? 01:48:57 err, I missed do not pass go 01:49:37 And I fixed a mistake in my specification, the two sides of VECTOR do not have to be the same data-type but they must point to two different arrays. 01:49:56 zzo38, GO FROM 12 PASSING 15 ON YOUR WAY TO 23 would be like COME FROM 12, then executing line 15 and then jumping to line 23. 01:50:00 or something like that 01:50:13 that's boring 01:50:14 but it could be written anywhere in the program 01:50:16 you can do that already 01:50:39 ehird, what if you use this to modify inside syslib to create a debug hook 01:50:49 you can you already do what you asy 01:50:52 it's just shorthand 01:50:54 that executes a line to print a debug message 01:50:57 Of course you can do that already, and if you want the syntax you have to define it yourself using CREATE 01:50:59 ehird, well true :/ 01:51:41 GO FROM 12 PASSING 15 ON YOUR WAY TO 23: Come from 12, make multiple copies of the universe, jumping to a random label in each, until one of them passes 15 and gets to 23, then destroy the rest :) 01:51:45 The reason the arrays in VECTOR can be different type is in case you want to use the () array in a vector calculator 01:51:57 GO DIRECTLY TO JAIL DO NOT COLLECT 200 POUNDS <-- COME DIRECTLY FROM JAIL DO COLLECT 90.7 kg 01:52:25 AnMaster: reference fail ;_; 01:52:27 Asztal_, niceer! 01:52:32 nicer* 01:52:34 of course, jumping to a random label is probably pretty useless, especially if you include syslib.i... 01:52:40 ehird, yes I know about monopoly 01:52:49 ehird, I was just twisting it 01:53:27 ehird, of course I know about the game monopoly... do you think I'm living under a rock or something? 01:53:33 yes 01:53:51 ehird, no, just a stone, not a rock 01:54:49 zzo38, crazy idea: i18n and l10n for intercal 01:55:03 for the source code 01:55:11 all user interface would still be as now 01:55:13 ;) 01:55:44 OK. The way to do it is to create a file that uses CREATE and CREMATE/DESTROY in order to change the words used into Klingon instead of English 01:56:22 zzo38, would that work for non-ASCII scripts? 01:56:27 Unicode and such 01:56:39 q: 1872389457344365238764523486521345 01:56:39 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 01:56:43 (prime factors function) 01:56:43 KOM FRÅN 23 01:56:46 what a ripoff :D 01:56:56 AnMaster: klingon is in ascii now/ 01:56:56 ehird, err? 01:56:57 ? 01:57:02 ehird, no it isn't 01:57:05 It works for EBCDIC only, even if the source-code is ASCII. 01:57:13 00:55 zzo38: OK. The way to do it is to create a file that uses CREATE and CREMATE/DESTROY in order to change the words used into Klingon instead of English 01:57:14 00:56 AnMaster: zzo38, would that work for non-ASCII scripts? 01:57:15 zzo38, oh my 01:57:57 zzo38, I don't think Swedish ÅÄÖåäö exists in EBCDIC. So that wouldn't just work in that case 01:58:05 what about UTF-EBCDIC though? 01:58:07 that exists iirc 01:58:13 it would be twisted enough 01:58:27 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTF-EBCDIC 01:58:40 zzo38, would that work? 01:58:54 I guess you can use UTF-EBCDIC, even if the source-code is in normal Unicode. But CREATE uses EBCDIC numbers for syntax, not ASCII numbers, even if the source-code file isn't EBCDIC. 01:59:35 zzo38, bottom line: how would it work out for Swedish åäö and ÅÄÖ? 01:59:40 or other unicode chars 02:00:27 Yes that UTF-EBCDIC would work if the compiler supported UTF-EBCDIC, the only thing is that the single-byte part will use the CLC non-standard EBCDIC instead. But the rest can still be the same as normal UTF-EBCDIC 02:01:22 It should work OK if the compiler supports it 02:01:44 heh nice 02:02:12 zzo38, haven't come up with anything for front tracking yet? 02:02:46 also I think it should be one word like either backtracking/fronttracking of back-tracking/front-tracking 02:03:01 hey 02:03:03 Not yet, but I am thinking about it. I read some of the ideas and am thinking about those things as well for front-tracking. But whatever is decided, the LIFE register will be for front-tracking what the CHOICE register is for back-tracking. 02:03:04 but ehird may have some good language reason to suggest otherwise 02:03:04 I specified front tracking 02:03:06 we all agreed it was good 02:03:07 :P 02:03:15 fronttracking 02:03:19 w/ 02:03:19 e 02:03:32 ehird, nothing at http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CLCLC-INTERCAL#Front-tracking yet 02:03:39 yeah well read the logs :D 02:04:10 zzo38, what is atomic intercal about? 02:04:25 concurrency or as opposed to quantum one? 02:04:41 Something I found on the newsgroup, I think. They didn't describe it very well either. 02:05:01 zzo38, what would it mean roughly? 02:06:07 zzo38, "SNIDEWARDS"? 02:06:33 I guess atomic intercal would be something like http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/browse_thread/thread/ed3506f631c7a0ef/9066b786b791bed2?hl=en&q=atomic+intercal#9066b786b791bed2 (but not completely like that, I will base it on that though) 02:08:49 zzo38, ah so it isn't related to atomic like Compare and Swap, Fetch and Add and such then? 02:08:51 Another message about atomic INTERCAL is at http://groups.google.com/group/alt.lang.intercal/browse_thread/thread/e34f20de1880b81b/5a50f350727415a6?hl=en&q=atomic+intercal#5a50f350727415a6 (and I will base it partly on that as well) 02:09:08 It isn't related to that. 02:09:47 Of course I can make some combination of the two proposals, but not quite. 02:10:40 http://femto.picoup.com/ 02:10:45 The first two results of http://groups.google.com/groups/search?hl=en&q=atomic+intercal&qt_s=Search+Groups describe atomic INTERCAL, but in different ways. 02:11:20 zzo38, same poster? 02:13:05 What's http://femto.picoup.com/ that doesn't make much sense it tell me the username it already has is invalid because it is too long, what? 02:13:46 the user accounts are shared between that and the main site, picoup.com. 02:13:56 zzo38: it's a twitter clone except you can only use one letter 02:14:14 And snidewards is based on something from this IRC channel, someone suggested what snidewards should mean 02:14:48 Using only one letter, can kanji or katakana be used though? 02:14:57 dunno 02:15:43 http://s3.amazonaws.com/twitpic/photos/large/3980319.jpg?AWSAccessKeyId=0ZRYP5X5F6FSMBCCSE82&Expires=1237858432&Signature=5RCJ9YMQiLmBaU%2FwdAY%2F0d%2FmmQw%3D 02:15:57 ehird, http://femto.picoup.com/ is insane 02:15:58 heh 02:15:59 night 02:16:26 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 02:19:00 -!- zzo38 has quit. 02:26:50 好 02:32:11 Japanese. 02:32:41 Racist. 02:33:11 that's like saying 'a' is English. 02:33:45 So it's not exclusively Japanese, like I thought. 02:34:40 -!- MizardX has quit ("Proclamation of invalidity!"). 02:34:57 very few kanjis are exclusively japanese 02:35:17 iirc there're some that went out of use in Chinese, and a couple that were actually invented in Japan 02:35:51 oh, apparently "hundreds" rather than "couple" 02:36:26 like 辻 02:39:33 -!- MizardX has joined. 02:40:35 好 looks like it has two halves. 02:40:41 it does. 02:40:59 they're both pictograms - a woman on the left, a baby on the right. 02:41:38 obviously, the character means "good" :) 02:42:13 So the Chinese character set is pro-life? 02:42:21 yes. 02:42:39 Is one of those halves a radical? 02:42:57 both are radicals 02:43:12 Cool. 02:43:22 also both are characters on their own: -!- 40 - #not-math: ban %*!*@host86-175-32-*.wlms-broadband.com [by thermoplyae!i=thermo@cohomology.org, 1223818 secs ago] 02:43:25 whoops 02:43:31 that's not a character :) 02:44:26 lament keeps trying to speak Chinese, but e keeps ending up banning people instead. 02:46:15 i meant 女 and 子 02:46:41 woman, child 02:48:47 * kerlo frowns at screen's Unicode boochery. 02:49:15 screen -U 02:49:22 I'm using that. 02:49:37 term_charset = utf-8? 02:49:40 It still doesn't work. 02:49:57 If UTF-8 is as good as utf-8, I have that set. 02:50:10 it's bigger. 02:50:29 * kerlo sets it to utf-8 for the sake of... 02:50:40 There, it's utf-8 now. 02:50:40 there's also ^A :utf8 on on 02:50:51 I'm not entirely sure what the second parameter is. 02:50:53 chinese characters with pictographic explanations are really neat 02:50:57 Using two ons? 02:51:01 it defaults to off, I think. 02:51:02 like 安 "peace" : woman under a roof 02:51:05 I set that. Nothing happened. 02:51:30 I did have :utf8 set before. 02:52:24 then perhaps it's your terminal that's at fault. 02:52:57 With my lŭck, the Eŝperanto charaĉters won't display properly eitĥer, despite the fact that they were not long ago. 02:53:23 Yep, broken. I don't know why screen behaves inconsistently. 02:53:29 But eliminating screen from the chain fixes the problem. 02:53:35 aw. If it's any consolation, I see them fine. 02:53:42 I'm aware of that. 02:53:48 no you are not. 02:53:48 screen -U only works when starting the screen, btw. 02:54:00 not when reconnecting. 02:54:11 So screen -U -d -r may not work as well as it could? 02:54:19 -!- Asztal__ has changed nick to Asztal. 02:54:31 try a new screen? 02:54:46 I'll go ahead and try restarting irssi. 02:54:47 -!- kerlo has quit (Client Quit). 02:55:04 -!- kerlo has joined. 02:55:14 * kerlo dings 02:55:36 This is screen -U, detached and reattached with screen -U -d -r. 02:56:59 你好 02:57:21 Many-circumflex test: âĉêĝĥîĵôŝûŵŷẑ 02:57:29 Both those displayed right, I think. 02:57:48 The one on the right is the same woman-baby character; the one on the left is a radical to the left of something else. 02:58:26 good 03:00:20 The man radical. 03:02:22 I guess the one on the left is composed of radicals 9, 42 and 14. 03:02:39 i didn't realize the radicals were numbered. 03:02:58 You mean the numbers aren't obvious from the shapes? 03:23:55 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 03:25:57 -!- Sgeo has joined. 03:28:09 -!- Slereah has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:39 -!- Slereah has joined. 03:33:14 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:10:52 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:19:31 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:42:19 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:59:33 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:31:23 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:13:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:48:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:48:06 -!- Asztal has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:22:37 -!- mtve- has changed nick to mtve. 08:29:27 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 08:29:46 * fizzie is still known as fizzie 09:30:14 -!- tombom has joined. 09:40:05 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("X-Chat -> http://xchat.org <- At least when I quit I don't look like a lamer"). 11:04:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:15:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:52:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:21:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 12:43:36 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:59:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:00:19 -!- Sgeo has quit (Client Quit). 13:11:11 -!- neldoret1 has joined. 13:23:00 -!- neldoreth has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:32:41 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Useful! http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Maxsteele2 this seems kind of pointless 15:38:54 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:11:16 -!- Sgeo has joined. 16:50:32 -!- neldoreth has joined. 16:50:41 -!- neldoret1 has quit (Client Quit). 16:51:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:53:03 -!- FireyFly has joined. 17:00:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:01:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:03:16 07:32:41 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Useful! http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Maxsteele2 this seems kind of pointless 17:03:19 ugh 17:03:26 hi ais523 17:03:53 * ehird continues drafting shell language 17:04:09 hi ehird 17:05:12 18:40:59 they're both pictograms - a woman on the left, a baby on the right. 17:05:12 18:41:38 obviously, the character means "good" :) 17:05:14 XD 17:07:23 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:07:32 -!- ais523_ has joined. 17:08:31 "Or even how to implement Haskell's ap/<*> (translated painstakingly to Java) in terms of fmap, return, and join (this is legally considered torture in 49 states)" 17:28:16 "Haskell's purity reminds me of lemon juice: you need to add lots of water, sugar and ice to make refreshing lemonade." —Guido van Rossum 17:28:17 * ehird rolleyes 17:33:01 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:34:17 -!- ais523__ has joined. 17:35:40 -!- comex has changed nick to ais523___. 17:35:46 ... 17:35:59 http://vimeo.com/3753964 <-- this is awesome 17:36:11 ais523___: that's evil 17:36:19 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 17:36:21 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais523. 17:36:41 -!- ais523___ has changed nick to comex. 17:38:03 ap/<*> 17:38:04 what is that? 17:39:10 two operators 17:39:15 enter #haskell 17:41:48 Hm 17:41:58 I like that sound thingy 17:43:10 Theory: 17:43:17 "Hello, world!" is common among great programmers. 17:43:29 "Paula Bean is brillant^U Hello, !" is common among bad programmers. 17:43:40 Therefore, good programmers are altruists. 17:47:43 s/^ Hel/"Hel/ 17:47:46 Was bugging me. 17:48:08 err, does ^ match a control-U? 17:48:22 ais523: Control-U deletes up to the start of line. 17:48:27 Try it in your terminal. 17:48:40 Opposite of control-k. 17:48:46 oh, ok 17:48:56 it's probably a readline thing, rather than a terminal thing, though 17:50:48 Well, yes. 17:53:52 -!- FireyFly has quit ("Later"). 17:54:03 -!- FireyFly has joined. 17:55:41 Oh. It's Ada Lovelace day. 17:56:16 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/659752/programming-challenge-can-you-code-a-hello-world-program-as-a-palindrome <-- Hooray, shitty brainfuck answer. 17:56:32 -!- FireyFly has quit (Killed by ballard.freenode.net (Nick collision)). 17:56:52 -!- FireyFly has joined. 17:57:17 -!- zzo38 has joined. 17:58:08 I only use the term "a language that shall not be named" in speech, it seems silly to use it in writing. 17:58:22 zzo38: people are afraid of saying 'fuck' 17:58:25 /shrug 17:58:29 zzo38: does IRC count as speech or writing? 17:58:38 IRC counts as writing. 17:58:43 also, can't you just bowdlerise it to B****fuck? 17:59:06 ais523: :-D 17:59:34 You can bowdlerise it to "B****fuck", "Brainf***", "B****f***", or whatever you want, in writing, but in writing I prefer to use the proper word "Brainfuck". 17:59:36 I seem to remember asking people to bowlderise my brainfuck compiler "Frainbuck" as "F****buck" 18:00:18 Valid is subjective - maybe 'valid' to cobbal is 'compiles, runs, and produces expected output' – Erik (Mar 19 at 0:22) 18:00:21 Valid is subjective? 18:00:22 Seriously? 18:00:27 Have these people read the C standard? 18:00:45 I also consider leaving a voice-message in morse code as being close enough to writing as well, even though it isn't. 18:01:06 ehird: yes, the C standard doesn't define "valid" 18:01:13 well, it defines what a c program is 18:01:14 it defines "conforming", and "strictly conforming" 18:01:18 :-) 18:01:22 conforming = runs on at least one C implementation 18:01:26 ha 18:01:33 strictly conforming = runs on all strictly conforming C implementations 18:01:39 the OhCrap c compiler: Try gcc. If that fails, run perl. 18:01:47 All perl programs are now conforming C programs 18:01:48 so to be conforming, you just mustn't do anything that's strictly banned in C 18:02:04 ehird: not if they started #error "This is not a conforming C program" 18:02:05 after all, a c implementation can be other things too at the same time 18:02:08 ais523: well, true 18:02:14 but, there you go 18:02:17 amusingly, #error is the only thing actually guaranteed to screw up your program in C 18:02:22 anything else can be treated as an extension 18:03:08 http://stackoverflow.com/questions/659752/programming-challenge-can-you-code-a-hello-world-program-as-a-palindrome/661121#661121 18:03:09 Woah. 18:03:37 print "Hello, world!\n" # "n\!dlrow ,olleH" tnirp 18:04:01 although that linked program is impressive 18:04:30 oh, if they're adding a no-comments rule, use a string literal or something instead of comments 18:05:04 And it seems that in FlogScript a palindrome "Hello World" program can be written {Hello World}P.P}dlroW olleH{ but I don't know whether or not it would be cheating 18:06:41 oh, I can do it in one byte in HQ9+ 18:06:41 and it's palindromic 18:06:43 * ehird works out one 18:06:59 there are BF and Befunge examples already on the thread 18:07:18 Well ya that's because HQ9+ is designed for making those three kinds of programs in 1 byte. It is not meant for anything else 18:07:49 oh, someone did the HQ9+ already 18:09:51 You can probably do it in Forth also because you can redefine words after they are used to not output anything or be a error 18:10:50 gah 18:10:52 I almost have a nice one 18:11:06 without cheating 18:11:28 what, in HQ9+? 18:11:31 no :) 18:11:39 What program language? 18:11:52 Ruby; it has some syntactic sugar which helps for this 18:12:10 the code that actually outputs hello world: 18:12:10 :Hello.display&?,.chr.display&?\s.chr.display&:world.display&?!.chr.display&?\n.chr.display 18:12:15 pretty scary 18:12:35 Befunge is too easy for that 18:12:50 Deewiant: well, obviously 18:12:57 And in goruby I also think it is 1 byte and therefore a palindrome 18:12:58 And any other interpreted language which doesn't do any static checking 18:13:05 the problem is to tell if anything in particular in a befunge program is a comment or not 18:13:09 (I don't know how many such languages there actually are) 18:13:21 goruby is some Japanese stuff. 18:13:33 Hmm, so if we said that we have to execute the whole thing... 18:13:42 ruby is some japanese stuff 18:13:43 :P 18:13:50 goruby is just a weird ruby addon that for some reason is in the ruby 1.9 core 18:14:01 I think it's used for anarchy golf and nothing else 18:14:30 hmm 18:14:30 darn 18:14:32 yalpsid.rhc.n\\?&yalpsid.rhc.!?&yalpsid.dlrow:&yalpsid.rhc.s\\?&yalpsid.rhc.,?&yalpsid.olleH:" 18:14:35 that .n\ is invalid 18:14:45 Searching goruby on Google results in Japanese stuff. Luckily I have Japanese fonts on my computer 18:14:45 the problem doesn't ask for a newline 18:14:51 the !? is invalid, but ?& is valid, but the yalpsid after isn't valid 18:14:54 it wants you to print exactly Hello, World 18:14:56 ais523: the s\\ has the same problem 18:15:03 alsoa 18:15:08 most of the current solutions print the newline 18:15:10 yes, capital W 18:15:20 whatever :P 18:15:54 "I'm pretty sure it's actually a palindrome. What's the easiest way to check?' 18:15:56 /facepalm 18:16:06 oh Stack Overflow... 18:16:09 And stuff about FlogScript can also be found in Japanese at http://b.hatena.ne.jp/yshl/20080407 18:16:16 a"!dlrow olleH"bk,,kb"Hello world!"a@ <- whole thing is executed 18:16:27 looking through GolfScript, it can clearly be beaten 18:16:33 Deewiant: what's doing the printing there? 18:16:34 zzo38: yshl is one of the anarchy golf players 18:16:37 ais523: k, 18:16:39 so unsurprising 18:16:54 oh, Funge-98 18:17:12 Then why haven't they added FlogScript to anarchy golf yet? 18:17:13 also, is that palindromic? 18:17:18 you have a @ at the end but not the start 18:17:24 Oh, good point 18:17:30 zzo38: ask shinh 18:17:32 j: 18:17:32 1!:2&2['Hello, World'['dlroW ,olleH'[2&2:!1 18:17:35 Hmm, that might make it a bit tricky actually 18:17:36 that's awesome, actually. 18:17:38 it uses K 18:17:40 I understand a few things in Japanese, such as mahjong, and I like to read Japanese Akagi manga 18:17:40 as in the k operator 18:17:50 zzo38: shinh speaks english as far as I know 18:17:56 I tried to ask shinh before but I got no reply 18:17:58 yeah 18:18:00 idle 37:46:18... 18:19:35 woo, almost 18:23:11 -!- neldoreth has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:23:11 And how many of you people understand any amount of Japanese at all anyways 18:23:17 pikhq knows some, iirc. 18:23:22 Er... SimonRC too? 18:23:30 Sukoshi used to come here, I think she knew japanese 18:23:32 I know about 2 words of Japanese 18:23:34 Deewiant? 18:23:41 He was talking in japanese wasn't he 18:23:46 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 18:23:59 i know two words in japanese, sushi and sake 18:24:15 Very little 18:24:26 lament: those are English words 18:24:32 I meant japanese words that aren't in English 18:25:02 I understand a few things in Japanese, such as kana script, some kanji, and some words as well. 18:26:06 Hmm. I'd like a visual language where (to ASCIIlate): 18:26:07 And it is even on my Wikipedia user page 18:26:07 V----\ 18:26:07 Show | 18:26:09 | | 18:26:11 | | 18:26:13 \----/ 18:26:15 is a quine 18:26:21 i.e., attach a show to itself 18:26:36 I can't read kanji at all and I've forgotten most of the kana too 18:26:42 ehird: That would be interesting, maybe you can write some more about it on esolang wiki 18:26:48 I think I will 18:27:06 hmm 18:27:13 heh, Eval would be the same as Jump 18:28:08 Hm 18:28:13 Hmm 18:28:18 Hmmm 18:28:29 Kana is not that hard. Kanji is harder but I know some, such as the numbers and a few others (such as person, water, center, wheel, and a few other ones also) 18:28:32 :( 18:28:58 I have another question. Do you like my Wikipedia user page? 18:29:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:29:07 It's not hard, no, but I just haven't used them enough to remember them 18:29:09 the nice thing about graphical languages 18:29:13 is that they're graphs. 18:29:14 the programs. 18:29:18 yes 18:29:29 that's a nasty thing about them too, as it makes the programs harder to transmit 18:29:29 zzo38: it has a lot of userboxes. 18:29:39 ais523_: eh, just make a pastebin built in 18:29:45 ideally you have both a graphical version and a text representation of them 18:29:47 I have more userboxes 18:29:47 And is there anything on my Wikipedia user page that you like or dislike or agree or disagree or neutral opinion 18:29:50 ehird: to the language? does that even make sense? 18:29:55 ais523_: to the editor 18:30:10 it'd put it on a pastebin as javascript 18:30:11 ehird: I strongly disagree with the language == editor principle 18:30:18 ais523_: it's a graphical language... 18:30:22 you pretty much have to have that 18:30:34 no, why? 18:30:48 o_o 18:30:49 you have a well-defined representation for transferring the language 18:30:55 no, that's bad 18:30:58 and different programs that can each use them 18:31:01 ehird: why is that bad? 18:31:05 programs don't have to use it internally 18:31:09 just as an interchange format 18:31:10 textual languages don't define a graphical representation for viewing them 18:31:13 why compromise? 18:31:17 it's not like this language would be popular 18:31:17 ais523_: do you disagree with having separate keyboard layouts for English and Norwegian? 18:31:29 lament: no 18:31:31 or for that matter English and Chinese? 18:31:40 I agree with having programs be able to read the keys without knowing the keyboard layout though 18:31:54 what ehird's suggesting is that norwegian keyboards only work with norwegian IRC clients 18:32:03 and english keyboards only work with english IRC clients 18:32:04 ... no I'm not... 18:32:14 this is officially a metaphor free zone 18:32:14 having something in between to translate the keystrokes makes much more sense 18:32:15 And did you make any of your own userboxes? 18:32:17 ais523_: keyboard is UI, editor is UI 18:32:18 because you're all _terrible_ at it. 18:32:29 ais523_: UI should be specifically designed for the task at hand 18:32:30 lament: exactly 18:32:35 and one language should allow multiple UIs 18:32:36 exactly! 18:32:38 is what I@m saying 18:33:01 I don't see how you're disagreeing with me. 18:33:02 and it shouldn't matter which UI you used, the program should still work 18:33:06 i think we're all agreeing. 18:33:08 I was just saying that the UIs should paste to a pastebin. 18:33:11 To transfer them. 18:33:12 Except 18:33:14 graphbin 18:33:23 ah, interesting 18:33:24 And to edit them, you'd load it into one of the UIs. 18:33:36 presumably this would work in a non-internet-connected way too 18:33:45 er 18:33:50 you're sharing a program 18:33:54 the interchange format doesn't have to be textual, presumably it would be whatever stream of bytes was sent to the pastebin to do the pasting 18:33:58 well, yes 18:34:02 binary serialization, yes 18:34:13 a common serialization's enough to keep me happy 18:34:26 although having it human-readable and human-writable is always nice 18:34:44 I think writing a complex graph textually is a recipe for disaster 18:34:57 well, yes 18:35:01 that's why you'd rarely edit by hand 18:35:02 besides, just use an online graph editor; if you're making a graphbin, adding editing facilities shouldn't be too hard 18:35:06 ehird: so all programming is a recipe for disaster? 18:35:10 i agree! 18:35:13 lament: ;-) 18:35:16 most programs aren't directly graphs 18:35:20 ehird: please don't assume Internet connections 18:35:24 I don't have one most of the itme 18:35:26 *time 18:35:31 PLEASE ASSUME INTERNET CONNECTIONS 18:35:40 ais523_: okay, so you get your programs off your HD or a disc, right? 18:35:41 and no way should a programming language care whether its user is internet-connected or not 18:35:43 so put the UI on that disc 18:35:48 ehird: yes, that's fine 18:35:56 ok, so there's no need for it to be human readable :-) 18:36:05 no, never a need 18:36:05 And if you want, you can even look at my image directory storages http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/index.php/02/ 18:36:16 ais523_: a big advantage of binary: the parsing is much, much faster 18:36:45 "I just can't play a game that doesn't have good graphics. My machine has one of the fastest and most expensive graphics cards for a reason, and you'd better use it if you expect me to like your game." 18:36:46 I hate people. 18:36:49 a big disadvantage of binary: it tends to be corrupted in transit 18:36:56 ais523_: if you use Windows. 18:37:06 binary is the same as text on all sane operating systems 18:37:07 ehird: or anyone between me and the program uses Windows 18:37:14 Yes, well, so don't do that. Upload in binary mode. 18:37:16 ehird: not on the Internet, it isn't 18:37:16 Well, I prefer games with minimal graphics, regardless of graphics card. 18:37:19 Or don't use Windows. 18:37:23 ehird: bigendian or littleendian? 18:37:32 ... 18:37:35 binary is much less standardised than text 18:37:42 text is binary 18:37:43 not to mention things like bitwidths 18:37:47 anything else, is madness 18:38:07 ehird: you can still tell a text file from a binary file even on UNIX, though 18:38:14 Only via heuristics, ais523_. 18:38:21 well, yes 18:38:29 but I mean, although all UNIXes store text the same 18:38:32 they store binary differently 18:38:47 I especially like the mathNEWS covers. 18:38:57 Do you like the mathnews covers pictures? 18:38:57 0x12345678 can map to a different sequence of bytes on one computer than on another 18:39:03 that's why text is used for information interchange 18:39:16 ais523_: just specify one in the serialization standard and stick to it 18:39:17 it's not hard 18:39:30 you'd be surprised 18:39:47 I've never had a problem with it. Stop using non-unixes. :-) 18:40:17 ehird: you're lucky to never have had a problem with it 18:40:24 do you exclusively use x86_64? 18:40:28 if so, maybe that's why 18:40:31 Of course with text files, there is UNIX line-endings and printer line-endings but many programs I have dealt with accept both 18:40:43 Well, I don't use non-x86 processors, no. Though I have. 18:40:49 Surely FTP and HTTP and all handle this? 18:41:00 with text, line endings are the only thing to worry about 18:41:03 I mean, take image uploaders, ais523_ 18:41:04 ehird: they translate text files, but not binaries 18:41:08 They upload binary data over http 18:41:11 Network line endings are printer line endings, as far as I know. 18:41:12 They never have endian issues 18:41:17 So...? 18:41:31 ehird: a lot of work goes into image formats 18:41:36 specifically to prevent endian issues 18:41:51 so, they're well-designed 18:41:54 I'm not saying it's impossible 18:42:03 to design a working binary format 18:42:07 but it is very easy to mess up 18:42:29 You can have a binary format that just uses ASCII chars, ais523_. 18:42:42 Heck, most formats probably don't need more than the printable chars. 18:42:47 So it would take the same amount of space. 18:42:51 I'll probably do that. 18:42:59 for instance, libpng has at least two functions that deal with endianness 18:43:04 The graphbin would of course translate it to some sort of Javascript data structure on viewing the graph, of course 18:43:09 ehird: there is one, ppm or something 18:45:01 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:45:12 http://e-texteditor.com/blog/2009/opencompany This is cool 18:46:49 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:47:36 I prefer to run my businesses as if they were Free Software projects instead. But I have my own set of rules I use when running a business also 18:47:50 what businesses do you have 18:48:38 I just got an idea 18:48:42 Oh dear. 18:49:05 I don't have any but I will start one in a few months. And of course I am still going to trademark stuff and make rules for when warranties are voided, but otherwise allow freedom. That means absolutely no patents. 18:49:08 since there are LISP machines, why aren't there machines? Or are there? 18:49:22 AnMaster: There are in theory. 18:49:25 AnMaster: there's the Befunge CPU, but I don't know if it was ever built 18:49:34 Just consider: APL machine 18:49:42 Why should I consider that? 18:49:45 It isn't in the least interesting. 18:49:51 hm... 18:50:01 ais523_, hm... 18:50:07 hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 18:50:29 apart from lisp machines and befunge cpus, any other such special purpose ones? 18:50:31 hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 18:50:33 :( 18:50:39 AnMaster: >_< 18:50:48 There's a BF one IIRC 18:51:06 FireyFly, hm now that you mention it, it sounds slightly familiar 18:51:19 Some of my ideas are Canadian credit chip systems (with complete freedom and security), custom calendar service, game console system, books (with ForthBASIC programs that can run on game console system), and others. 18:51:36 "Canadian credit chip systems" err target market? :D 18:51:50 f = lambda x: x(x) 18:51:53 f(f) 18:51:54 Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah 18:52:02 * Slereah is testing Python's lambdas. 18:53:04 Although I must say, doing the whole f(x) thing feels pretty weird for lambdas. 18:53:06 Canadian credit chip systems are meant to be used in Canada obviously, possibly transitional, but can be used in other countries as well, in addition to being used for things other than credit chips. 18:53:26 I already wrote the protocols involved! 18:53:28 what are credit chips anyway? 18:53:34 and why Canada? 18:54:08 Canada because I am Canadian. 18:54:09 btw I assume you all noticed linux 2.6.29 was released yesterday 18:54:13 http://www.nordier.com/v7x86/ 18:54:13 also hi ais523_ 18:54:39 AnMaster: I noticed it was released, but I noticed today not yesterday 18:54:42 AnMaster: I did not notice. 18:54:43 But I also didn't care. 18:54:51 I don't know if that counts as noticing it was released yesterday 18:55:00 your sentence was ambiguous 18:55:27 you are right, it was ambigious 18:55:53 My service provider is Canadian so from that you can see that I am Canadian also. 18:55:56 ais523_, I'm currently compiling it (not on my main system though, I'm not that insane) 18:56:55 your isp is ... very 90s 18:56:56 "DCCNET is a unique state-of-the-art Internet service using the speed capabilities of your existing Cable TV Connection. With speeds up to 100 times faster than a telephone modem it's the best way of connecting to the Internet. " 18:57:10 Requirements for the Macintosh platform are: 18:57:10 * OS 8.1 or higher 18:57:11 * Power PC 601 18:57:13 * RAM 24 MB 18:57:15 * DISK 60MB* 18:57:28 you also need windows 98 and 32mb of ram and windows 98 or higher for windows :-D 18:57:43 "the Macintosh platform"? 18:57:47 Yes. 18:57:50 heh 18:57:53 does OS 8.1 or higher include 10? 18:57:58 if so, how? 18:58:03 :-D 18:58:10 http://dccnet.com/delta/index.html 18:58:17 The site design includes 1997. 18:58:22 ais523_, probably not since Classic emulation support was dropped when Apple switched to Intel 18:58:23 Hm, wait, more 1998 18:58:36 http://dccnet.com/delta/images/contact3.jpg "Holy crap! A blank screen!" 18:58:38 ah 1998, the golden age of web design 18:59:02 ehird, company still exists? 18:59:11 Considering that zzo38 is connected via them. 18:59:13 I would assume so. 18:59:18 ah 18:59:20 17:46 zzo38 has joined (n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com) 18:59:26 it seems so very outdated? 18:59:35 they're named after an IRC command? 18:59:44 AnMaster: You are so observant. 18:59:56 The service providers are given before the command on each line. 19:00:00 https://webmail.dccnet.com/scripts/webmail.exe 19:00:02 webmail.exe 19:00:03 :-D 19:00:08 i bet it's written in delphi 19:00:12 ehird, yes I'm just surprised it isn't a left over web page of some company that went bust.. 19:00:21 webmail.exe is one of the more ridiculous filenames I've seen recently 19:00:28 ais523_: it just means 19:00:29 1. windows server 19:00:30 2. cgi 19:00:33 3. written in compiled language 19:00:38 incidentally, does anyone here put the .exe suffix on UNIX executables? 19:00:44 some do. 19:00:47 it makes sense if you want a suffix 19:00:50 ais523_, sounds insane? 19:00:52 .exe doesn't mean PE, after all 19:00:52 Actually I used to use EXE for CGI scripts as well. But not anymore. All the EXE scripts you want to access on my web-site no longer work. I have written replacements for some of them in PHP. 19:00:55 I used to back on UNIX, but don't nowadays on Linux 19:00:58 and agreed 19:00:58 ehird, true... but still 19:01:05 .exe is a sane suffix if you're suffixing executables at all 19:01:05 call them .bat 19:01:06 most of the time you don't want a suffix 19:01:09 for extra fun 19:01:12 http://help.dccnet.com/ <-- hey, firefox 19:01:13 just unix shells don't use implied suffices 19:01:14 2 19:01:18 they're not _too_ behind 19:01:19 just very behind 19:01:23 I still often put the .sh extension on batch files 19:01:34 i like how people have to manually tweak the spam folder 19:01:39 s/folder/filter/ 19:01:41 Warning: 19:01:43 I think PlayStation executables also use the .EXE extension 19:01:47 The browser you are using is not supported. 19:01:55 (warning from the student portal at my university) 19:02:00 ais523_, ls --color=auto uses file extensions on GNU/Linux systems. How usually depends on distro 19:02:03 what's amazing is the list of supported browsers 19:02:21 heh, see for yourself, http://www.my.bham.ac.uk/cp/home/check/post?supported=false 19:02:25 ls --color=auto also uses the x permission. 19:02:38 ais523_: shit, they don't support leopard : - ( 19:02:41 oh wow 19:02:41 mozilla suite 19:02:42 shit 19:02:43 I used that thing 19:02:46 in 2004 or so 19:02:50 ais523_, firefox 1.0.x? wow 19:02:51 yes, and they support firefox 1 and firefox 1.5 19:02:53 it was better than firefox 19:02:55 but not firefox 2 or 3 19:02:55 at the time 19:03:03 that error message I got on firefox 2 19:03:14 srsly though 19:03:17 who else used mozilla suite 19:03:19 And I think .exe are still used for Mono executables on Linux (but not sure) 19:03:22 interestingly, they support MSIE-Windows but not MSIE-Mac 19:03:27 but really it is easy to forget to update such pages if you always use modern browsers 19:03:30 ais523_: MSIE-mac is totally separate 19:03:36 I know 19:03:42 it's still interesting, though 19:03:43 interestingly, it was altogther ok 19:03:44 Well, back on the Limp interpreter :3 19:03:47 i maen, to a point 19:03:56 "Internet Explorer 5.x (latest version), 6.0 SP2 and 7.0" 19:04:01 Does anyone know what's the limits on the names for defined funtions? 19:04:07 Slereah: ? 19:04:10 the really really amusing thing is 19:04:15 In Python 19:04:17 that on the computers here that use firefox 19:04:19 Slereah: wha 19:04:19 t 19:04:25 What can you name a defined function? 19:04:28 instead of setting the homepage to bypass the check, or changing the check 19:04:28 er 19:04:30 anything 19:04:35 Even 1? 19:04:40 yes... 19:04:40 Even a pre-existing function? 19:04:42 err 19:04:43 what 19:04:46 they went and set the homepage to a page saying "please click continue on the next page" 19:04:46 you are making no. sense. 19:04:51 ais523_: :D 19:04:51 Am I not? 19:04:52 which redirects to that page after about 5 seconds 19:05:03 Like if I want to do def print 19:05:07 you can't 19:05:09 print is a keyword 19:05:16 That's what I wanted to know! 19:05:22 you could have just TRIED 19:05:26 Is there a way to check for keywords? 19:05:30 yo 19:05:33 u'll know if you use one 19:05:55 I meant more of a function to check a string 19:06:08 why 19:06:10 what on earth are you doing 19:06:12 it sounds hideous 19:06:44 Well, for the limp thingy, I want to rewrite the program in Python, since interpreting it directly looks like a pain 19:06:52 ;;;;;;;_;;;;;;; 19:06:57 why can't you program 19:07:04 Because I am bad :( 19:07:29 I don't like Python program language 19:07:35 why not 19:07:42 please don't say because of the whitespace 19:07:52 I'm not too sure how to interpret it directly 19:08:06 oh, the whitespace is a symptom, not the problem itself 19:08:23 I'm very surprised the python interp doesn't error on indentation that isn't exactly 4 spaces, actually 19:08:43 mildly annoying, as I still think Python's got one of the best mainstream OO implementations I've ever seen 19:08:57 python OO is terrible 19:08:58 take it from me 19:09:04 Some people like using two spaces 19:09:06 ehird, heh 19:09:12 in the REPL, it's nice to use one space 19:09:13 ehird: what don't you like about it? 19:09:15 There are various reasons I don't like Python. 19:09:16 lament: you're missing the point 19:09:26 ais523_: it's just not good compared to a smalltalk derivative 19:09:29 you don't have a point 19:09:35 oh, a REPL is a very good reason why whitespace is a bad idea, I didn't even think of that 19:09:37 ehird: I said mainstream 19:09:39 lament, stop being RIGHT 19:09:40 :D 19:09:46 ais523_: ruby 19:09:51 is mainstream, and has a smalltalk-derived OO system 19:10:07 I've used python quite a lot and never had a problem with indentation. It's really not hard to use 4 spaces and not accidentally 5 or 3. 19:10:20 Set your editor to enter 4 spaces when you press Tab, and you're done. 19:10:22 lament: I've lost Python programs before due to accidentally corrupting the whitespace 19:10:27 hm I think I read somewhere that Python is LL(1) to parse. I suck at parsers, so... how are LL and LR related? Can any LL grammar be parsed with a LR parser as well or? 19:10:32 ais523_: you have special talents. 19:10:35 AnMaster: LL(1)'s less general 19:10:38 it's a subset of LR(1) 19:10:52 lament: his main complaint is that entering a bf interp into bsmntbombdood involved exec'ing a large string with \n and spaces in 19:10:54 ais523_, I see. So it is technically even simpler to parse? 19:10:58 yes 19:10:58 ehird: ruby is ugly though :( 19:11:04 I much prefer things like Forth, C, JavaScript, rather than Python. 19:11:04 LR(1) is pretty complicated 19:11:15 lament: Ruby is only ugly if you have a lot of nested blocks. 19:11:24 ehird: sigils! special syntax for exactly 1 HOF argument! begin/end! 19:11:30 on the other hand, LR(0) is simpler than LL(1), and LL(0)'s simpler still, although I think unusable for syntax much more complicated than deadfish's 19:11:39 1. I rarely use sigils when coding ruby; also, they're not type sigils 19:11:42 2. What? 19:11:45 heh 19:11:48 3. It's do/end, and you can use {/} if you want. 19:11:53 ais523_, what sort of grammar would Befunge be? 19:12:09 or does the question even make sense? 19:12:24 AnMaster: Befunge doesn't even have a grammar 19:12:28 ehird: oh, not HOF argument, just a block. There's definitely special syntax for passing one block. 19:12:35 actually, maybe it counts as LL(0) 19:12:38 lament: You can only pass one block. 19:12:41 ais523_, hm ok 19:12:41 it's very simple, one token = one command 19:12:44 ehird: how is that not a bug? 19:12:44 and each command is one char long 19:12:48 Yes, it's not too pure; but in practice, it works out just fine, lament. 19:12:59 And because there's not an easy way to get a nice syntax for multiple blocks; but I never need more, really. 19:13:02 ais523_, what about S-Expressions? 19:13:06 Generally if I need more I'm going about something the wrong way 19:13:15 well. 19:13:27 the same logic "in practice it works out well" can be applied to Python or indeed anything else. 19:13:36 ais523_, even I could figure out how to parse that into a in memory tree with some rather basic code 19:14:02 lament: Yes, but Ruby's code is generally cleaner, the OO is nicer, the limitations are generally due to bad code, etc. 19:14:08 So. 19:14:31 subjective things 19:14:38 Yes. 19:14:39 ais523_, ? 19:14:42 I'm saying Ruby's OO is better. 19:14:47 You said Ruby is ugly. I replied why I think it isn't. 19:14:48 and don't get me started on select/reject/inject/subject/surject/project. 19:14:48 Simple. 19:14:58 Ruby has *synonyms* for shit. 19:15:04 that's simply *dumb* 19:15:07 lament: So does Python. 19:15:15 I'll let you figure them out, though. 19:15:17 ruby has them as a matter of policy. It has a *lot* of them. 19:15:20 No, it does not. 19:15:22 Python has them as exceptions. 19:15:22 It has a few. 19:15:54 And I have written a proposal for a improved variant of JavaScript also. 19:16:17 err 19:16:22 how is that related to ruby? 19:16:27 or python 19:16:30 ehird: please show lament some oepy 19:16:36 heh 19:16:46 oepy is one of my favourite things of yours, just because it's so fun for showing to python fans 19:17:02 I'll dig it up 19:17:04 ehird: just using non-standard names for map and filter is a big warning sign 19:17:06 in fact, one python fan I know would rather make the lang Turing-incomplete than allow more than one way to do something 19:17:11 lament: "map" is the preferred name. 19:17:19 Sure, select is preferred instead of filter; so fucking what? It's not relevant. 19:17:23 it means "WARNING! THIS LANGUAGE WAS DESIGNED BY PEOPLE WHO DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING" 19:17:29 ais523_, anyway what about parsing S-Expressions? Is it LL(1) or ? 19:17:31 it was originally a lisp, lament 19:17:42 The preferred word for filter in Python is [x for x in list if f(x)] 19:17:45 that's bloody non standard to me 19:17:46 Lisp has no problem with passing more than one closure to a function. 19:17:55 Yes of course python programmers want bondage and discipline 19:18:01 you're just trolling, lament; you haven't yet given decent answers to my questions 19:18:09 er 19:18:11 what did you ask? 19:18:21 o-o 19:18:39 AnMaster: sexp's certainly LR(0) (as is BF), I don't know if it's LL(1) as well 19:19:00 LR(0) means that whenever you see a symbol, you know its context without any further information 19:19:06 so in sexp, ( always opens a sexp 19:19:10 and in BF, [ always opens a loop 19:19:12 wrong 19:19:13 "a(" 19:19:20 ais523_, ah ok. didn't you say LL(0) < LR(0) < LL(1) < LR(1)? 19:20:06 What type of grammar would Forth be? Forth has no syntax or grammar as far as I know. 19:20:09 hm does string prevent it being LR(0)? 19:20:15 zzo38: it has a trivial lexing grammer 19:20:18 *grammar 19:20:21 specifically, separation by space 19:20:23 although, well 19:20:23 Forth doesn't have a grammar 19:20:26 2 2+ is valid forth 19:20:26 meaning 2 2 + 19:20:31 but that's an oddity 19:20:39 Only if the word 2+ is defined 19:20:44 nope 19:20:45 iirc 19:20:45 hm 19:20:47 zzo38: forth doesn't have a grammar, a "grammar" is something pre-defined 19:20:48 well 19:20:49 in original forht, 2 2+ worked. 19:20:53 it cannot change while you're reading the program. 19:20:54 lament: it is predefined 19:20:56 space separation 19:20:59 ehird: no it isn't. 19:21:03 learn Forth. 19:21:07 I do know Forth. 19:21:10 You don't. 19:21:21 Sure, you can poke at the compiler's memory locations; that does not count. Also, fuck off with your blanket assertions, they're uninteresting. 19:21:36 if you know forth, i have to assume you're just trolling. 19:21:38 ais523_, so what about the "a(" thing ehird mentioned there? 19:22:04 lament: go on then — how do you change the parser to read other than space separated, without poking into memory? 19:22:06 I'll wait here. 19:22:31 zzo38: ais523_: http://pastie.org/425635.txt?key=12ziikqeeiprgcigklfoa An IRC bot written in Python, but as one big ugly expression. Completely whitespace-agnostic. No significant indentation 19:22:37 ehird: for example, by implementing something like the ( command. 19:22:44 lament: er? 19:22:46 ehird: which happens to be already implemented. 19:22:51 Yes. And? 19:23:17 ehird: thanks 19:23:18 If you want to change the parser in Forth you will have to write your own parser and execute the new parser, then it will read the rest of the program using your own parser, when it is finished the old parser will resume but it won't do anything because there is nothing left to parse 19:23:26 I've seen oepy before, but I always like to see it again 19:23:27 ehird: what zzo38 said. 19:23:29 zzo38: I don't really count that as changing the parser 19:23:30 IMo 19:23:31 IMO 19:23:41 it's just reading words from the input stream 19:23:46 it's not changing the parser, it's subverting it 19:23:55 you are a nut. 19:24:02 You're a troll. 19:24:13 It depends on the specific Forth implementation how the parser might be changed if it can be changed at all. 19:24:16 can an op be a troll? 19:24:25 ais523_: Have you ever _talked_ to lament? 19:24:25 Yes. 19:24:34 Heck, he admits to being a troll about a third of the time. 19:24:56 -!- oepy has joined. 19:24:59 *echo echo—echo— echo— 19:25:00 echo—echo— echo— 19:25:08 *rot13 qwertyuiop! 19:25:09 djreglhvbc! 19:25:12 *help 19:25:13 cmd, echo, epy, help, rot13 19:25:20 *epy 2/0 19:25:20 ZeroDivisionError: integer division or modulo by zero 19:25:50 *epy (lambda x: x(x))(lambda x: x(x)) 19:25:50 RuntimeError: maximum recursion depth exceeded in cmp 19:25:52 I am in the process of writing IRC bot as well, called pocket monster IRC. It allows you to play pocket monster IRC 19:25:56 *cmd hello s('Hello, world!') 19:26:00 *hello 19:26:00 KeyError: "s('Hello," 19:26:03 But I used PHP instead 19:26:04 what, you mean it doesn't tail-recurse? fail. 19:26:07 Lol vut. 19:26:26 no, seriously, what? 19:26:29 on the other hand, it seems oepy can execute an infinite loop in well under 6 seconds 19:26:29 hi ais523_ 19:26:39 ais523_: python isn't tail rec- 19:26:43 why are you saying hi, oepy? 19:26:44 hi ehird 19:26:46 oh, in /msg? 19:26:48 why not? it should be 19:26:54 heh 19:26:57 ais523_: it should be, but it isn't, because recursion is discouraged. 19:27:02 you're meant to use loops. 19:27:09 that's insane 19:27:13 I don't like Python, see. I just think the criticism of it is mostly discouraged. 19:27:14 ...I thought Python was meant to be multi-paradigm? 19:27:16 AnMaster: About as insane as C. 19:27:21 Or, most other languages. 19:27:24 or can't it be, without giving more than one way to do things? 19:27:30 ehird, well yes, but GCC can optimise tail recursion 19:27:31 :P 19:27:34 Scheme is the only language that _specifies_ TCO. 19:27:37 ehird: the C standard doesn't require tail recursion, but doesn't forbid it either 19:27:38 well true 19:27:39 oepy also sent a "hi" message to me, privately, when I sent CTRL+A VERSION 19:27:39 hi zzo38 19:27:43 and many good languages do 19:27:44 ehird, what about common lisp? 19:27:46 err 19:27:47 (yes, it specifies all tail call optimizations, not just recursion) 19:27:49 AnMaster: No. 19:27:57 Many Common Lisps overflow the stack on tail recursion. 19:27:59 ehird, also erlang specifies TCO I'm pretty sure 19:28:00 Most, even. 19:28:05 ehird: ocaml specifies tail-recursive implementations of its stdlib 19:28:08 what about haskell? 19:28:10 ((Erlang has a spec?)) 19:28:14 Perl has an explicit tail-recursion operator 19:28:20 AnMaster: haskell gets it implicitly from laziness 19:28:21 which just to confuse people, is called goto 19:28:29 (match(r':([^!]+)\S* PRIVMSG ((oepy) .*|(#esoteric) :.*oepy.*)', txt), (lambda a, _, b, c: 19:28:29 hi ehird 19:28:29 (lambda x: socket.send('PRIVMSG %s :%s\r\n' % x))( 19:28:32 {'oepy': (a, 'hi'), '#esoteric': ('#esoteric', 'hi '+a)}[b or c] 19:28:32 hi ehird 19:28:33 Who is oepy anyways 19:28:33 hi zzo38 19:28:34 ) 19:28:35 )), 19:28:37 oepy: hi 19:28:38 hi ehird 19:28:40 oepy: hi 19:28:40 hi ehird 19:28:41 zzo38: http://pastie.org/425635.txt?key=12ziikqeeiprgcigklfoa 19:28:42 although it's a different goto from standard C/BASIC goto 19:28:45 a python irc bot, BUT 19:28:45 it's written in one line 19:28:47 well 19:28:50 not one line 19:28:51 but one expression 19:28:53 so it's whitespace insensitive 19:28:59 I wrote it to kill the people who think python is whitespace sensitive :-D 19:29:04 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 19:29:13 ehird: submit it to proggit 19:29:21 ais523_: I might 19:29:21 ehird, yes it does iirc 19:29:25 seriously, I'd like to see what arguments result 19:29:55 sec, need to fix my *cmd invokation 19:30:00 *cmd hello s("Hello, world!") 19:30:03 *hello 19:30:04 KeyError: 's("Hello,' 19:30:07 So it looks for a PRIVMSG command containing the string "oepy"? Is that correct? 19:30:07 hi zzo38 19:30:09 See? Makes no sense. I wonder what. 19:30:14 zzo38: That's what makes it say hi, yes. 19:30:18 It does other stuff too; see the code. 19:30:24 ooh, I have an idea 19:30:27 Including run one-expression Python, help, rot13, echo, and defining your own commands. 19:30:32 *cmd hello s("Hello,_world1") 19:30:37 *hello 19:30:37 oh, wait 19:30:38 KeyError: 's("Hello,_world1")' 19:30:43 ais523_: nope, here's what you need to do 19:30:56 *epy set('hello', lambda: s('Hello, world!')) 19:30:57 TypeError: () takes exactly 0 arguments (2 given) 19:31:01 er. 19:31:03 second. 19:31:10 *epy set(hello=lambda: s('Hello, world!')) 19:31:10 at 0x2433f0> 19:31:13 *cmd hello hello 19:31:16 *hello 19:31:16 ehird, yes erlang does. I can only find an old draft of it with google though 19:31:16 NameError: global name 's' is not defined 19:31:22 hahahah 19:31:23 >_< 19:31:41 ehird, http://erlang.org/download/erl_spec47.ps.gz but there are newer versions. Just no idea where.. 19:31:47 *epy set(hello=lambda: 1/0) 19:31:48 at 0x2439b0> 19:31:50 *hello 19:31:51 ZeroDivisionError: integer division or modulo by zero 19:31:55 ok. 19:32:11 *epy quit 19:32:11 Use quit() or Ctrl-D (i.e. EOF) to exit 19:32:21 er, shit, I forgot to remove that :-D 19:32:28 *epy set(hello=(lambda ss: lambda: ss('Hello, world!'))(s)) 19:32:29 NameError: name 's' is not defined 19:32:33 okay wut 19:32:37 s should be defined 19:32:37 *epy quit() 19:32:37 -!- oepy has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:32:39 it's in the epy scope 19:32:40 that's a realy brilliant response for the bot to come up with, though 19:32:41 zzo38: >:E 19:32:42 don't do that 19:32:43 ehird, ((Erlang has a spec?)) <-- I answered but you ignored what I said? 19:32:47 truly brilliant 19:32:50 then, why ask? 19:32:54 Now fix it if there is security holes or whatever in oepy 19:32:57 -!- oepy has joined. 19:32:58 zzo38: there are. 19:33:02 they are pretty much unfixable 19:33:06 python isn't designed for sandboxing 19:33:19 ooooooooh 19:33:22 s is the wrong thing 19:33:27 *epy set(hello=lambda: pr('Hello, world!')) 19:33:28 at 0x23e2b0> 19:33:28 I think there's a python-sandboxer script in Battle for Wesnoth 19:33:29 *cmd hello hello 19:33:33 *hello 19:33:33 Hello, world! 19:33:34 for running AIs safely 19:33:54 ehird, *shrug* I see you asked without being interested in the answer. 19:33:57 and it seems *cmd has one level of indirection too many 19:34:06 AnMaster: It was a wondering; just shaddup 19:34:08 ais523_: no, it's intentional 19:34:15 although I forget why 19:34:33 *epy set(echoecho=lambda a: (pr(a), pr(a))) 19:34:33 at 0x23eb70> 19:34:35 *cmd echoecho echoecho 19:34:37 *echoecho 19:34:37 also, why can't python be sandboxed? 19:34:38 TypeError: () takes exactly 1 argument (0 given) 19:34:39 *echoecho a 19:34:40 (a, a) 19:34:45 ais523_: it's not that simple 19:34:55 I mean, why isn't it simple? 19:34:59 I'm not saying "do it" 19:35:06 I'm saying "what architectural decisions lead to it being hard" 19:35:14 -!- zzo38 has quit. 19:35:14 ais523_: come back to me when you have a C program that runs another C program safely 19:35:15 good luck 19:35:15 as in, my question wasn't rhetorical 19:35:17 *epy set(echoecho=lambda a: a+a) 19:35:18 at 0x2425f0> 19:35:19 *echoecho eccccccccchoooooo 19:35:20 'eccccccccchooooooeccccccccchoooooo' 19:35:24 oooh 19:35:26 ehird, that is quite possible... 19:35:26 pr() is a class 19:35:27 ehird: just write a C interp 19:35:28 that stringifies as itself 19:35:33 ehird, just not in *ANSI C* 19:35:34 ais523_: I am not writing a goddamn python interp. 19:35:37 *epy set(echoecho=lambda a: pr(a+a)) 19:35:38 at 0x242c30> 19:35:41 ais523_: Not a solution. 19:35:43 well, no, you have one already 19:35:49 *echoecho AAA 19:35:49 AAAAAA 19:35:52 *echoecho AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 19:35:52 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 19:35:54 *echoecho AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 19:35:54 AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 19:35:59 *echoecho oepy 19:36:00 oepyoepy 19:36:00 hi ehird 19:36:32 -!- zzo38 has joined. 19:36:48 ehird, there are ways to sandbox a compiled C program, or any binary 19:36:50 even static ones 19:37:00 *echoecho *echoecho 19:37:00 *echoecho*echoecho 19:37:01 iirc debian has a new fakeroot version that uses ptrace 19:37:02 That's unrelated 19:37:20 *echoecho *echoecho 19:37:20 TypeError: () takes exactly 1 argument (2 given) 19:37:22 ehird, that is safe execution of another C program as far as I can see.. 19:37:31 *echoecho *echoecho *echoecho 19:37:31 TypeError: () takes exactly 1 argument (2 given) 19:37:32 how is it unrelated? 19:37:34 *echoecho *echoecho *echoecho 19:37:34 TypeError: () takes exactly 1 argument (2 given) 19:37:34 *echoecho 19:37:34 TypeError: () takes exactly 1 argument (0 given) 19:37:40 *echoecho echoecho 19:37:40 echoechoechoecho 19:37:48 there's something up with the parsing... 19:37:51 No there isn't. 19:37:56 Arguments separate on space. 19:38:02 *echoecho *echoecho 19:38:03 *echoecho*echoecho 19:38:07 oh, ok 19:38:14 zzo38 must have written two spaces by mistake 19:38:15 sec: 19:38:24 ehird: your bot is whitespace-sensitive, something's gone wrong here... 19:38:29 *epy set(echoecho=lambda *a: (lambda x: pr(x+x))(' '.join(a))) 19:38:30 at 0x24cc70> 19:38:32 *echoecho a b c 19:38:32 a b ca b c 19:38:51 Now it allows spaces 19:38:59 *echoecho *echoecho 19:38:59 *echoecho*echoecho 19:39:06 Yes. Yes it does 19:39:06 *echoecho *echoecho 19:39:07 *echoecho *echoecho 19:39:14 *echoecho VERSION 19:39:14 VERSIONVERSION 19:39:16 zzo38: It doesn't listen to itself 19:39:28 Well that's good. 19:39:31 Yes. 19:39:37 *echo hello oepy 19:39:38 *echo VERSION 19:39:38 hello oepy 19:39:38 hi ehird 19:39:45 *echo VERSIOn 19:39:45 VERSIOn 19:39:47 *echo VERSION 19:39:47 VERSION 19:39:57 zzo38: Here's a ctcp command: 19:40:14 ehird, well? 19:40:18 how is it unrelated? 19:40:25 AnMaster: stop bugging me, I'm doing other things 19:40:37 *epy set(ctcp=lambda a: pr(chr(1)+a+chr(1))) 19:40:38 at 0x252f30> 19:40:40 *cmd ctcp ctcp 19:40:43 *ctcp VERSION 19:40:47 ehird, I think it is a very valid question 19:40:51 don't you agree ais523_? 19:41:03 AnMaster: I am delighted not to give a shit about your need to have every thing you say personally confirmed by me. 19:41:14 If there is anything else you'd like me to ignore and do other things instead, please feel free to let me know 19:41:16 AnMaster: because it's a difference between safety from outside and safety from inside 19:41:20 Now, back to ctcp. 19:41:32 in a lang like Haskell, for instance, you can prevent a program doing I/O simply by not giving it an I/O monad to play with 19:41:35 *epy set(ctcp=lambda *a: pr(chr(1)+' '.join(a)+chr(1))) 19:41:35 at 0x2588b0> 19:41:40 *ctcp ACTION is green 19:41:41 * oepy is green 19:41:45 as long as you don't have unsafePerformIO or something like that getting in the way 19:42:03 Of course you can also use *echo with control characters, but now *ctcp adds the control characters by itself. I'm not sure how *cmd ctcp ctcp is supposed to work, though. I don't know Python very well 19:42:06 *cmd *epy pr(1+1) 19:42:11 err... 19:42:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:42:19 *cmd two *epy pr(1+1) 19:42:21 *two 19:42:21 KeyError: '*epy' 19:42:24 That won't work. 19:42:30 'cmd': (lambda s, name='no_name_specified', func='no_func_specified', *a: 19:42:31 extra_cmds.__setitem__(name, (lambda s, *a: 19:42:32 this(this)['epy'](s, 'get(%s, user=%s)(*%s)' % (repr(func), repr(user), repr(a)) 19:42:33 ais523_, Hm... So you mean you would need a separate python instance that you could sandbox? 19:42:33 pity 19:42:35 ))) 19:42:37 ), 19:42:39 It fakes an *epy. 19:42:41 When you run it. 19:42:43 See? 19:42:44 AnMaster: that's what your analogy would be 19:42:53 ehird: ah, ok 19:42:57 is epy not in the namespace anyway? 19:43:02 *cmd three epy pr(1+2) 19:43:04 *three 19:43:04 KeyError: 'epy' 19:43:08 ais523_: that turns into 19:43:16 sec 19:43:17 it turns into 19:43:24 Looking at the log commands, it seems CTRL+A commands are recorded if they are malformed 19:43:30 *epy get('epy',user='ais523')('ptr(1+2)') 19:43:31 KeyError: 'epy' 19:43:37 zzo38: depends on the client 19:43:39 But not if they are formed correctly 19:43:39 Which, of course, fails, as you haven't defined "epy". 19:43:48 and the CTRL+A commands are more commonly known as "CTCPs" 19:43:56 ehird: oh, I assumed epy itself was defined using the get mechanism 19:43:58 is it special? 19:44:00 ais523_, anyway then ehird's analogy of sandboxing C isn't very relevant. Since C have all those things needed for doing it. You could even do somewhat like valgrind and interpret the executable... 19:44:16 ais523_: that looks up your set() results 19:44:17 valgrind doesn't interpret the executable, does it? 19:44:20 this is the command namespace 19:44:23 two different things 19:44:26 ais523_, it does partly iirc. 19:44:28 ah 19:45:17 oepy isn't hard to read, is it? 19:45:18 hi ehird 19:45:23 once you get used to the: 19:45:25 ais523_, I remember this because I ran into a (known) bug in it's handling of interpreting x87 instructions, related to rounding mode 19:45:31 (lambda f: f(x))(lambda name: ...) 19:45:32 being 19:45:34 let name = x in ... 19:45:37 I think it's fairly easy 19:45:52 ehird, I said that back when you wrote it, you claimed it was hard to read then... 19:45:57 ehird: it is to a pythoner 19:46:02 no, AnMaster, I said it was ugly 19:46:04 but I claimed it was rather easy compared to most python code I have seen 19:46:10 the whole point is that python is easy to read because all python programs look identical 19:46:11 ehird, and easy to maintain too 19:46:14 so you only have to learn to read it once 19:46:26 on the other hand, they're rather too vertical for me to keep a lot in mind at once 19:46:26 AnMaster: yes — and saying that reveals that you evidently can't freaking read it 19:46:31 because if you could you wouldn't say it's easy to maintain 19:46:31 I keep losing track due to all the scrolling 19:46:37 having wrote it, I can tell you that it's a pain in the ass to modify 19:46:43 ehird, I remember giving an example of how to add a command, was dead easy 19:46:46 ais523_: get a bigger terminal? 19:46:55 ais523_: yeah, we need multi-column editors 19:46:56 AnMaster: uh, no. 19:46:58 two operators 19:47:12 lament: how would that work with the whitespace thing? you couldn't track the indentation 19:47:15 ehird, yes back when you first showed it in #esoteric 19:47:16 ap should be = (<*>) for any monad 19:47:21 oerjan: yes. 19:47:22 I want to know if anyone is interested in pocket monster IRC and if you have requests 19:47:29 zzo38: do you mean the pokemon rpg games? 19:47:33 over IRC? 19:47:33 ais523_: each column wide enough to fit everything (say, 80 chars) 19:47:36 I'm not sure how that would work. 19:47:41 zzo38: did you just write the name of pokémon out in full? nobody does that 19:47:46 and I don't get how it would work over IRC 19:47:47 ais523_: the japanese do 19:47:51 ehird: ah 19:47:59 although, well, that's more pokettu monsutra or something. 19:48:11 ehird: yes, close to that. It is multi-player battle only, and "limited" rather than "constructed" (the terms meaning what they do in M:tG) 19:48:14 more worrying for me is the fact that pocket monster correctly abbreviates to pokémon in both English and Japanese 19:48:21 pokemon sutra 19:48:33 zzo38: err... you mean, you have to draft pokémon from a random selection of boosters? 19:48:35 "Poketto Monsutā" 19:48:36 that's getting even more confusing 19:48:37 japanese 19:48:41 Yes, "pokemon" is a abbreviation of the Japanese words "poketto monsutaa" which means "pocket monster" 19:48:44 i was close 19:49:00 lament: japanese has tr? 19:49:06 oerjan: no. 19:49:12 karma sutra 19:49:22 oh just a pun 19:49:32 It could be written in katakana but on IRC it is harder if the Unicode is not support very well 19:49:43 ehird, that is Indian or something isn't it? 19:49:46 Most irc clients support unicode. 19:49:50 AnMaster: It's Kama Sutra. 19:49:50 zzo38: anyway, please tell me the rules for this really insane concept 19:49:52 I said Karma Sutra. 19:50:07 I can always just ban anyone who can't get utf working. 19:50:09 a pokemon draft's a worrying-enough thought as-is, do you get to choose their attacks and evs and ivs etc yourself 19:50:12 ehird, ah. 19:50:16 or are they intrinsic on the pokemon? 19:50:25 ais523_: you can teach them moves in the games 19:50:29 so I wouldn't think instrinsic 19:50:38 actually I don't even think this could possibly work. 19:50:40 lament, interesting idea. But I have working UTF and I saw "ā" above? 19:50:42 does saying karma sutra reduce your karma? 19:50:42 or what do you mean 19:50:43 Sort of like drafting from boosters, that is one possible limited play but there are other styles of limited as well, such as "random fixed deck" in which case each player gets things assigned randomly but equally. There are even more kinds of limited styles also. 19:50:48 ehird: I'm asking about the specific rules of limited pokemon-over-IRC 19:51:05 oerjan: it's kindness porn 19:51:05 I don't think it could possibly work either, but am willing to be proven wrong 19:51:39 suggestion: This channel use use UTF-EBCDIC! 19:51:42 There will be more than one possible type of limited play. I haven't worked out the specifics yet but if you have any suggestions I will take them into consideration. 19:51:47 ehird: i sort of assume the porn part is in the "kama", since sutra means something like text or book iirc 19:51:47 as the official encoding 19:51:58 oerjan: whatever :P 19:52:25 "K.ma means sensual or sexual pleasure, and s.tra are the guidlines of yoga, the word itself means thread in Sanskrit." 19:52:39 oerjan, how comes "karma" and "kama" are so close then? 19:52:46 modulo unicode copy/paste error 19:52:50 AnMaster: karma = spiritual pleasure? :P 19:52:58 ehird, is that so? 19:53:04 I was guessing 19:53:05 isn't a kama a sort of weapon? 19:53:12 ais523_, that's katana isn't it? 19:53:13 or do I play too much D&D? 19:53:18 ais523_: Weapon book? I don't see the relevance to sex there :D 19:53:22 AnMaster: no, that's a different sort of weapon 19:53:35 I think there is kama in D&D also, isn't it? (And I mean 3.5e because 4e is hardly D&D) 19:53:37 ais523_: maybe -ma is a noun suffix like in greek... 19:53:51 Holy crap, Slereah has never used a {} dictionary in Python. 19:53:51 a katana's a sort of high-quality sword, karmas are more like a sort of cross between a pickaxe and a scikle 19:53:52 >_< 19:54:00 ehird, link? 19:54:03 what 19:54:04 link to what 19:54:11 zzo38: yep, and D&D 4 is a good game, but an entirely different game to D&D 3.5 and below 19:54:13 ehird, where did you see that he didn't 19:54:18 AnMaster: he has me on msn. 19:54:20 messenger. 19:54:21 ah 19:54:25 oh my 19:54:27 what 19:54:35 it's just a protocol 19:54:36 ehird, I suck at python and even I know about {} dicts... 19:54:38 oh 19:54:43 i thought you were going to complain about msn :P 19:54:56 ehird, no I have done that so many times before 19:55:02 ais523_: I don't know how good 4e is (it is said to be a excellent war game), but it is a bad D&D game and a bad role-playing game. I'm not saying 4e is bad, but it isn't real D&D in my opinion 19:55:15 ehird: msn as a protocol may not be completely awful, but msn the servers have problems 19:55:22 they blocked youtube links for a while, for instance 19:55:30 real d&ders play D&D -3i2 19:55:33 ais523_, what about google links? 19:55:40 ais523_: oh, they do a lot of that retarded blocking shit; I keep having to put spaces in urls 19:55:41 meh 19:55:46 I don't think so, that would be even more ridiculous than blocking youtube 19:55:47 download.php download.php download.php download.php download.php download.php download.php download.php 19:56:02 Or "Icosahedral RPG" (which I have written slowly over time) 19:56:07 I would use a more open protocol 19:56:07 people still use MSN? 19:56:16 AnMaster: google talk! 19:56:21 any good free, open and standard IM protocol 19:56:25 AnMaster: It's not your choice to make: if everyone you know uses MSN, then you use MSN because otherwise you can't talk to them. 19:56:25 lament: yes, msn's the most popular instant messenger I've seen 19:56:29 See? Human social interaction? 19:56:30 google talk 19:56:31 which is surprising given how awful it is 19:56:33 lament: it's popular in the UK 19:56:34 lament, is that open? I mean open like Jabber is open 19:56:35 AIM is more popular in the US 19:56:36 BUT 19:56:38 AnMaster: it IS jabber 19:56:39 without the xml mess 19:56:40 ehird: actually, I just persuaded them to use IRC instead 19:56:42 ehird, oh 19:56:44 AnMaster: google talk is jabber. 19:56:47 I see. 19:56:48 or to be precise, someone else did 19:56:52 ais523_: Yes, you're lucky because you have technically competent friends. 19:56:55 In Icosahedral it should be you are allowed to add/subtract/multiply/divide spells. And spell effects can have quantum superpositions. 19:56:56 well what about the xml mess that jabber is? 19:56:56 Shouldn't we all be so lucky. 19:56:58 no, they aren't 19:57:01 all my friends switched from msn to google talk over the past year or so 19:57:02 I would prefer a protocol not using XML 19:57:12 ais523_: we're talking about a different level of technical incompetence here; and also apathy. 19:57:16 After all, all THEIR friends use MSN, too. 19:57:29 lament, so you can connect to google talk using a jabber client of your choice? 19:57:33 AnMaster: Yes. 19:57:37 AnMaster: yep 19:57:38 I prefer IRC protocol. I don't like MSN or any of the other ones 19:57:42 They include instructions for doing so. 19:57:42 ehird: most people are capable of opening more than one chat app at once 19:57:46 I thought it was something in the side bar on gmail? 19:57:48 or whatever 19:57:49 ais523_: why should they 19:57:53 zzo38, same here 19:57:55 AnMaster: And a downloadable app. And a jabber server. 19:57:56 AnMaster: that's one possible way to connect. 19:57:58 -!- olsner has joined. 19:58:03 I use bitlbee personally. 19:58:03 ehird: because some of their friends use MSN, and others use IRC? 19:58:08 ais523_: no they don't 19:58:14 they all use msn 19:58:15 it's not as if people don't use both MSN and Facebook, for instance 19:58:17 IRC is simple enough to be used without a client 19:58:20 ehird, hm? gjabberd or what? 19:58:22 facebook is a social networking site 19:58:30 zzo38: yes, but I wouldn't expect someone nontechnical to do that 19:58:36 ehird: so what, they have them both open anyway 19:58:40 what's a third program to that? 19:58:44 also, IRC is actually possible to close 19:58:49 ais523_: it's a browser. 19:58:49 ehird, google's jabber server is downloadable? huh? What is the name of it so I can google it 19:58:53 I've been to cybercafes before with other people's MSN still running 19:58:53 AnMaster: no, it is not. 19:58:58 AnMaster: And a downloadable app. And a jabber server. 19:59:03 what did you mean then 19:59:08 AnMaster: a downloadable server, does that even make sense? 19:59:11 AnMaster: can you stop being so goddamn dense? IT'S A SERVER USING THE JABBER PROTOCOL 19:59:21 ais523_, well wget http://apache.org/whatever ? 19:59:39 You can bowdlerise it to "B****fuck", "Brainf***", "B****f***", or whatever you want, in writing, but in writing I prefer to use the proper word "Brainfuck". 19:59:44 AnMaster: that's a website, or server software, not a server itself 19:59:49 officially it should be lowercase too 19:59:53 http://liquidmateria.info/wiki/Icosahedral I think the license (see red text on bottom) is a license I wrote I think is valid for free culture works, do you think it is 19:59:55 oerjan: not quite 20:00:03 it follows normal capitalisation rules for an ordinary word 20:00:10 so it's "Brainfuck" at the start of a sentence 20:00:13 and "brainfuck" inside a sentence 20:00:23 ais523_: anyway, if you want you can try and convince my friends to use IRC instead. Predicted response: "Uh... why?" (time passes) "Nah, I'll stick with MSN." 20:00:29 ais523_, To be downloading a server doesn't sound strange. It would imply "server software" 20:00:30 people always seem to get this wrong, for some rwason 20:00:34 in the meantime i'll continue using MSN. 20:00:41 OK, make "brainfuck" lowercased. Of course that is not always done but I guess it is the standard lowercased 20:00:46 ehird: well, they switched to IRC for the ability to use channels 20:00:57 MSN does group chats. 20:00:57 and specifically, ban each other from channels 20:01:02 yes, I know 20:01:12 but does it do two different group chats with the same people involved? 20:01:20 anyway what about something like jabber but WITHOUT THE XML MESS? 20:01:20 I can do that with Adium 20:01:24 Dunno if it does that with the official client, but 20:01:27 why would they want to? 20:01:30 it's the same people, after all 20:01:33 (I know why.) 20:01:34 ehird: to talk about different things 20:01:37 a simple protocol like IRC maybe... 20:01:37 (They don't; because they don't need it.) 20:01:41 ais523_: why do they need to categorize that 20:01:42 and actually it's about 3 groups of people, which mostly overlap 20:01:52 ais523_: conversations IRL drift everywher 20:01:52 e 20:01:53 and some people are banned from various groups 20:01:54 but for some reason a lot of people doesn't consider IRC a subtype of "IM" 20:01:57 most people aren't sticklers for organizations 20:02:00 which is strange 20:02:04 *organization 20:02:09 the real reason's so you can have conversations with people about certain subjects, and ban other people from them 20:02:27 it's really easy to underestimate the complexity of secondary school politics, it seems 20:02:50 My friends tend to have less drama. :P 20:02:54 -!- zzo38 has quit. 20:03:03 so they use MSN just to create drama? 20:03:26 I've actually gone into a cybercafe 20:03:31 someone else's MSN was still running 20:03:35 and I couldn't quit it at all 20:03:37 err, they use MSN to talk 20:03:45 the thing that would have let me quit it was hidden by the cybercafe software 20:04:02 so I just said "I'm actually not , they left this cybercafe and left their MSN client running, and I can't figure out how to exit it" 20:04:10 and then ignored everything that came up there 20:04:24 I'm not entirely sure what the reaction of the people involved was 20:04:35 Prediction: "huh?" 20:05:08 * oerjan shuffles away fro the cynicism goo ehird is emanating 20:05:13 *from 20:05:14 well, we'll never know 20:05:25 oerjan: I prefer to call it 'experience'. 20:05:27 ais523_, what about telling the staff about it? 20:05:34 AnMaster: Response: 'huh?' 20:05:35 at the place I mean 20:05:39 eek, my sock is dissolving from it 20:05:49 Come on, you can't seriously believe people are that technically competent. 20:05:57 I live in a freaking bubble and I know they're not 20:06:10 a sock-dissolving bubble? 20:06:13 AnMaster: they were incompetent, and I'd probably have been in trouble if I tried 20:06:14 ehird, well they would have to phone some manager then until they reached someone who knew 20:06:22 ais523_, in trouble? why? 20:06:24 NOBODY KNOWS! 20:06:27 NOBODY KNOWS NOBODY CARES! 20:06:30 THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! 20:06:32 -!- atrapado has joined. 20:06:35 People don't understand computers 20:06:35 They don't want to 20:06:38 you could get free uses of that place by control-alt-deleting the cybercafe software and just using the computer 20:06:39 They don't want to hear about it 20:06:42 because they DON'T UNDERSTAND! 20:06:45 but I didn't 20:06:46 And they don't want to hear about it! 20:07:37 ... 20:08:11 the correct action is always to report the issue to whoever is responsible, and then let them forward it upwards. 20:08:20 *MEGAFACEPALM* 20:08:21 in cases like that 20:08:27 *FIVE THOUSAND HEADDESKS* 20:08:30 ehird, in my experience it usually works 20:08:33 *GUN* *HEAD* 20:08:35 + it is fun 20:08:36 *GUN**BULLET**HEAD* 20:08:42 *HADDE* 20:08:45 * * 20:08:46 20:09:25 don't accept people don't know, if they run a bloody cyber café how did they set it up if they don't know anything about it 20:09:26 AnMaster: I'm pretty sure that there were only three people involved in running the place 20:09:29 that makes no sense 20:09:32 because 20:09:32 they 20:09:34 bought 20:09:35 some 20:09:37 premade 20:09:39 cybercafe 20:09:41 AnMaster: my guess is they downloaded cybercafe software from the internet 20:09:41 software 20:09:44 you 20:09:45 ignoramus 20:09:46 and just installed it on lots of computers 20:09:47 ehird, I can't read when you write one word per line 20:09:50 without knowing what it did 20:09:57 AnMaster: good, then maybe you'll stop talking 20:10:02 just write multiple per line instead, it works much better 20:10:02 ehird: agree with AnMaster, it's very hard to read one-word-per-line comments 20:10:10 so I'll ignore those line you said there instead 20:11:28 icbw 20:11:32 toeo 20:11:37 u r 20:11:40 l s 20:11:44 d e 20:13:19 oerjan, don't give him ideas 20:13:33 unlike you I have a sense of humour, so that is unlikely. 20:13:40 AnMaster: at least he would have to work for it :D 20:14:22 oerjan, not really, a script to rotate text would be a one and a half minute hack at most 20:14:37 See a-b, 2008. Old. 20:14:40 Uninteresting. Whatever. 20:14:50 ? 20:14:54 agora-business? 20:14:58 oerjan: yes. 20:15:12 oerjan: Agora went through a period where people were using all sorts of weird character orders 20:15:25 in the end, Goethe just posted a completely randomly-ordered anagram of eir message 20:15:26 and it stopped 20:16:49 wonder if yi builds 20:21:17 http://code.google.com/p/shedskin/ 20:21:20 hey, anyone seen that? 20:22:07 yes 20:22:08 it sucks 20:22:18 it supports only a retarded subset of python, and its own extensions 20:22:23 andi t's not even that fast and it's crap 20:22:28 and you haev to write statically typed python. 20:22:34 mmm 20:22:44 I wonder how it compares to translated RPython and Cython 20:22:44 Also, not all Python features, such as nested functions and variable numbers of arguments 20:22:48 no *args 20:22:51 no def : def: 20:22:55 no def: lambda 20:22:57 hasucks 20:23:02 it only mentions cpython and psyco 20:24:42 just use haskell! 20:24:47 (how fast/slow is python-compiled-by-cython compared to cpython?) 20:24:51 * comex tries 20:25:54 -!- ais523 has joined. 20:31:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:35:52 Deewiant: ping 20:36:00 bong 20:36:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:36:13 fang 20:36:35 Deewiant: how do you enable profiling libs when compiling ghc 20:36:37 or do you not need to 20:36:48 Compiling with GHC or compiling GHC 20:37:13 If the latter, it's probably in mk/config.mk 20:37:18 The latter 20:37:33 # In addition, the RTS is built in some further variations. Ways that 20:37:34 # make sense here: 20:37:34 # 20:37:36 # thr : threaded 20:37:38 # thr_p : threaded profiled 20:37:40 # debug : debugging (compile with -g for the C compiler, and -DDEBUG) 20:37:42 # debug_p : debugging profiled 20:37:45 # thr_debug : debugging threaded 20:37:46 # thr_debug_p : debugging threaded profiled 20:37:49 # t: ticky-ticky profiling 20:37:50 # debug_t: debugging ticky-ticky profiling 20:37:53 Holy shiaite! 20:37:55 debugging ticky-ticky profiling XD 20:41:37 ticky-ticky profiling is wicked icky 20:49:08 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:55:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:01:39 Yay, GHC is on the path to compiling. 21:01:44 God, this is way too hard. bloody bootstrapping. 21:01:48 Awesome in theory, shit in practice. 21:02:30 * ehird make -j3 21:02:41 If there's one thing I need after all this it's some efficiency. 21:02:57 cabal-bin: Cannot find the program 'ghc-pkg' at '' or on the path 21:02:58 make[1]: *** [bootstrapping.conf] Error 1 21:02:58 make: *** [stage1] Error 2 21:04:34 It's like ten thousand spoons. 21:09:32 Let's try that again. 21:10:20 So ais523_, tell ,me how much you hate bootstrapping. 21:10:31 not very much 21:10:38 after all, it seems to work on CLC-INTERCAL, at least on UNIX 21:10:40 I see, you are a ghc-compilation-virgin. 21:10:47 Lucky, lucky you. 21:10:52 although there were line ending trouble when I tried to port CLC-INTERCAL to Windows 21:11:01 ehird: I can get a binary package of it, why would I need to compile it/ 21:11:12 ais523_: You should try it anyway; then you'll hate people. 21:11:48 ehird: which version are you trying to build? 21:11:52 6.10.1 21:11:59 With a bootstrapping binary of 6.8.2 21:12:08 -!- tombom has joined. 21:12:12 Anyway, I have these weird obsession: if it's a tool I feel I'll use an awful lot and depend on; I compile it myself. 21:12:14 *this 21:12:43 So far, though, it seems to be working. 21:12:46 That is good. 21:13:08 And after this, I can trash my icky hacked-with bootstrap compiler and the source tree, and be left with a clean, solid ghc 6.10.1 21:13:11 What's the lambda parameter in python to say 'any number of argument'? 21:13:17 And if I want to upgrade, I can just use my own damn ghc to compile it. 21:13:18 Slereah: *a 21:13:23 kthx 21:13:42 (It's a list I assume?) 21:13:48 tuple 21:14:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon <- The guy who invented this was a psycho 21:15:09 Ah, my computer is whirring. That means it is doing things quickly. 21:15:12 That is good. 21:15:24 84% CPU used. Very good. 21:15:31 Ah fuck. 21:15:34 What. 21:15:37 >>> f=lambda *a:0 21:15:37 >>> f 21:15:37 at 0x015EF030> 21:15:42 Yes? 21:15:45 You have to call it. 21:15:46 f() 21:16:20 Hey, I wonder why my other CPU isn't getting in on the fun 21:16:28 well 21:16:30 other core 21:16:44 "My other core is a Porsche." 21:17:02 My other core is also an Intel. 21:17:19 …I want a sticker saying that 21:17:54 "Hey guys, check out this ASCII Mandelbrot Set I made [ASCII]" 21:17:55 Seriously? 21:18:01 Even brainfuck can do that in a few lines, goddamn. 21:18:07 Why are you so, proggit? 21:18:08 'p':lambda x,y,*a:a[x] < fuck you y you useless piece of shit 21:18:11 I'm compiling 6.8.2 atm 21:18:17 ais523: with what 21:18:27 Debian sources 21:18:32 ais523: with which ghc 21:19:08 if it's anything other than 'a binary build in the same tree', uninstall it and try again. 21:19:09 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:19:13 heh 21:22:24 I think it's building from the C source 21:22:29 ghc has a portable-C backend 21:22:32 that's absolutely not recommended 21:22:38 in fact, you're specifically told not to do that in the build guide 21:22:53 nice try. 21:22:59 well, how could it build without a version of ghc installed already 21:23:04 that's why you have to get one. 21:23:11 although you do it in tree, not installed. 21:23:12 have fun 21:23:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 21:24:35 ehird: well, it's not as if compiling things is tricky on a Debian-based system 21:24:41 it's the same commands no matter what you're compiling 21:24:51 not with an in tree ghc binary 21:25:02 and it always works, it's considered a critical bug to release a passage where it doesn't 21:25:10 anyone saying that works without hacking and pain is full of shit because it's not that easy to compile ghc 21:25:31 and compiling from the c is totally not comparable 21:26:09 ah, it seems to be compiling from /usr/bin/ghc6 21:26:27 yep, that's an already installed build 21:26:30 so that doesn't count 21:26:37 that'll be what it's like after I have this build and want to upgrade 21:26:39 so I'm compiling 6.8.2 using 6.8.2 21:26:45 the situation is compiling it from scratch using a bootstrap without isntalling it 21:26:48 do you want me to build the svn version using my already installed build? 21:26:51 no 21:26:54 that is also not comparable 21:27:26 well, you're trying to do something impossible, I think 21:27:38 which is to install ghc which is written in a language you don't have a compiler for 21:27:46 ... 21:27:46 without installing or otherwise obtaining a compiler for that language 21:27:48 i've just told you 21:27:50 such as ghc-in-C 21:27:51 you DOWNLOAD A GHC BINARY 21:27:54 unpack it and DON'T INSTALL IT 21:27:56 then you DOWNLOAD THE SOURCE 21:27:57 that's ridiculous! 21:28:05 ais523_: for values of ridiculous equal to the only supported method 21:28:18 and for values of ridiculous equal to that's exactly what bootstrapping is 21:28:32 it's ridiculous because you can build it from source 21:28:39 requiring a binary's ridiculous because you couldn't port it 21:28:43 yes, you can port it 21:28:47 crosscompiler 21:28:50 sane bootstrap methods involve a portable backend 21:28:54 such as C, or bytecode 21:29:13 as in, you use ghc to translate ghc into C, then compile the C on someone else's system 21:29:13 great! now you have to write two copies of the compiler 21:29:15 and keep them in sync 21:29:15 awesome 21:29:25 err, no, just two backends 21:29:27 ais523_: er... why 21:29:29 just do: 21:29:41 you use ghc to compile ghc for $PLATFORM, then you copy that ghc over to the platform, and use it to compile ghc 21:29:46 cross compiler 21:29:50 it's how you port gcc, too 21:30:02 that requires ghc to have a working backend for that platform already 21:30:11 ais523_: no it doesn't 21:30:14 because you write one, then do that 21:31:36 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:31:42 20:30 ehird: ais523_: no it doesn't 21:31:42 20:30 ehird: because you write one, then do that 21:33:16 why would you need a backend at all if you only wanted to run ghci? 21:33:24 ais523_: do you know what ghci does? 21:33:26 it compiles then runs. 21:33:30 you need a backend to do that. 21:33:37 are you sure? 21:33:40 yes. absolutely. 21:33:44 a REPL invoking gcc is kind-of silly 21:33:48 it doesn't invoke gcc 21:33:51 it invokes ghc's api. 21:34:06 as far as I know you can't do "ghci -fvia-C". 21:34:06 I thought ghc compiled to machine-specific-C 21:34:09 no. 21:34:11 and used a C compiler the rest of theway 21:34:15 it compiles to native code via C-- 21:34:18 "C--" not C 21:34:22 yes, there is -fvia-C 21:34:26 but it isn't used any more 21:34:30 as it produces worse code 21:34:35 and has no advantages 21:35:38 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:35:39 The quality of the generated code depends on the program being compiled, -fvia-C is still better in some cases 21:35:47 Or that's what people say, anyway; I never use it 21:35:59 Yeah but it's being phased out 21:36:15 True, but it's not completely gone yet 21:36:29 My problem with bootstrapping is the Nuclear Catastrophe scenario 21:36:35 suddenly, all your binaries are lost. 21:36:39 you're fucked. 21:37:01 also, it means your implementation is semantically em pty 21:37:08 since it's defined only in terms of itself 21:37:12 err... why would you lose binaries and not simultaneously lose the sources to them? 21:37:15 In that scenario binaries are not what I'd worry about :-P 21:37:17 Exactly 21:37:30 ais523_: because they're separate packages, and because of bitrot. 21:38:31 well, at least in CLC-INTERCAL the bytecode for the compiler is packaged together with the sources to it 21:38:43 Anyway, all that means is that you should have the ability to build essentially your whole system given only the hardware 21:38:43 say you lose all packages; just your coding tree is left 21:38:49 I know it's not likely IRL 21:38:51 If you're feeling lucky, you can assume you have a kernel 21:38:53 it's in my coding tree 21:38:54 It's just a feeling of brittleness 21:39:24 So go learn some asm and put printouts of the Intel manuals in some secure location :-P 21:39:30 or would be if I actually coded on CLC-INTERCAL 21:39:50 ehird: would you feel happier if the binary was written entirely in plaintext? 21:40:04 I have a plan to devise a bootstrapping system that requires the minimum amount of code duplication while retaining almost all expressivity 21:40:07 I should implement it sometime 21:40:27 yes, simply compile to source rather than to binary 21:40:35 no 21:40:35 And can it do anything useful? :-P 21:40:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:40:51 it's not nearly as brittle; it's very very sturdy in the face of generated-code loss 21:40:53 Deewiant: Yes. 21:40:54 CLC-INTERCAL will have a decompiler, for instance, eventually 21:41:09 ais523_: you're thinking on the completely wrong level, but this conversation is highly boring atm 21:41:10 ehird: what if you lose everything but the binary? can you generate sources from it? 21:41:13 that's a more common situation 21:41:30 And much more problematic 21:41:44 You could copy the source into the binary, I guess. But I don't care about common - I care about the theory and the irritating feeling of brittleness the other types of bootstrapping give me 21:41:49 -!- ais523__ has joined. 21:42:28 Even unobfuscated binaries are practically impossible to reverse-engineer past a certain point of complexity 21:44:01 hmm... all programs should have a --quine switch 21:44:02 Boy, this is taking a while. 21:44:03 which makes them into quines 21:45:53 Rather, all compilers should have a compile-time option to embed the source and such an option 21:46:09 yes 21:46:19 although it should be compile-time for the compiler, not for the thing it's compiling 21:47:15 Well, there are contexts where embedding the source is something you don't want 21:47:28 (Yes, even for open-source software) 21:48:13 embedded compilers? 21:48:15 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais523. 21:48:58 Any embedded software, where the source code can well be too big to fit in the device it's runniing on :-P 21:49:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has quit (Success). 21:50:57 Preprocessing executables for ghc-bin-6.10.1... 21:50:58 Building ghc-bin-6.10.1... 21:50:58 [1 of 1] Compiling Main ( Main.hs, dist-stage2/build/ghc/ghc-tmp/Main.o ) 21:51:00 Linking dist-stage2/build/ghc/ghc ... 21:51:02 Fuck yeah? 21:51:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:52:49 make[2]: *** [doc.stage.2] Error 1 21:52:50 make[1]: *** [stage2] Error 2 21:52:51 make: *** [bootstrap2] Error 2 21:56:16 Gaiz 21:56:34 ais523: ghci normally compiles to bytecode, though 21:56:48 Owait no, nevermind 21:56:55 oerjan: ah, that would make sense 21:56:59 what runs the bytecode? ghci? 21:57:11 yeah 21:57:24 "By default, GHCi compiles Haskell source code into byte-code that is interpreted by the runtime system." 21:57:42 well, that makes a lot more sense than what ehird was suggesting 21:57:47 it makes it an actual REPL 21:58:05 it probably still is just a backend to that C-- thing, i assume 21:58:15 rather than a RCRPL 21:58:53 "GHCi can also compile Haskell code to object code: to turn on this feature, use the -fobject-code flag either on the command line or with :set" 22:03:34 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:07:25 -!- kar8nga has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 22:07:49 -!- kar8nga has joined. 22:10:42 -!- comex has changed nick to _ais523. 22:10:55 -!- _ais523 has changed nick to A1S523. 22:13:57 RCRPL? 22:14:07 read compile run print loop 22:14:25 ais523_, sounds pretty sane if you already have implemented a compiler for the language 22:14:48 if you have there is no real good reason to also design a byte code compiler and an interpreter for that 22:15:06 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:15:18 [[['f', 'x'], 's(x)'], [['g', 'y'], 'f(y)']] 22:15:20 Yessss 22:15:20 or you could just use LLVM to be able to do either :) 22:15:22 the byte code compilation is supposedly faster 22:15:24 parsing works :D 22:15:24 well JIT then 22:15:27 and compile 22:15:54 oerjan, if it is faster to execute byte code suddenly, why does it compile anything at all in ghc? 22:15:57 ;P 22:16:03 not execute 22:16:05 just compile 22:16:13 ok that would indeed be true 22:16:16 native code is 10-20 times faster to execute 22:16:30 oerjan, you could JIT it 22:17:00 anyway I would just use LLVM since with LLVM I could just use the built in functionality to compile to native, JIT it, or even interpret it 22:17:03 :) 22:17:06 i failed at finding any specific information on how bytecode compilation differs from the native code paths 22:17:18 oerjan, grep the source? 22:17:23 for ghc 22:17:40 i don't have it installed, just web browsing 22:19:44 oerjan, you don't have ghc installed? 22:19:49 no 22:19:58 I thought you were a haskell fan? 22:20:33 well it is my favorite language, but i don't actually do that much programming 22:23:20 eval(i[0][1]) < what ain't right in that expression? 22:24:16 well assuming i[0][1] is an appropriate string, i would think nothing 22:24:48 it tells me there's a syntax error :o 22:24:59 Slereah_: what lang? 22:25:02 Python 22:25:15 well what does i[0][1] contain? 22:25:15 why the curried arrays? 22:25:41 the syntax error might be from the string contents 22:25:45 it contains a string, though it wouldn't know that since the program won't even run! 22:26:01 paste more stuff 22:26:05 the error is somewhere else 22:26:12 for i in prog : 22:26:12 func[i[0][0]]=lambda eval(i[0][1]):eval(i[1]) 22:26:19 haha 22:26:23 no arguments to the lambda 22:26:34 The argument is in the eval :( 22:26:43 you can't do that. 22:26:47 Shit 22:26:48 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 22:26:59 put the entire lambda inside the eval. 22:27:11 Though i have no idea why you would ever want to do whatever you're doing. 22:27:26 Horrible stuff. 22:27:32 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Limp 22:29:41 it may works, but since python gives me "'g': at 0x015ED3B0>", i'll have to try it. 22:30:17 i guess you'll need to be careful to get things evaluated when you want 22:30:39 i don't care too much about the order in that particular case, though 22:30:47 it's only functions. 22:31:17 oh no, I just saw http://thedailywtf.com/Comments/Tax-Broke.aspx 22:31:23 the oh no is due to zzo38 trying to comment on it 22:31:28 so, will "lambda " + i[0][1] + ":" + i[1] do? 22:31:39 er, eval of that 22:31:39 Oh fuck 22:31:55 i forgot the function to turn functions into dic['function'] 22:32:22 Let's be doin that 22:33:00 Hm. 22:33:06 I don't think the world's ready for xxo38 22:33:07 *zzo38 22:33:09 i could do it in an extremely lazy way. 22:33:18 And i don't mean lazy evaluation. 22:36:55 def dikdik(x,y): 22:36:55 y = y.replace('s(','').replace(')','').split(',') 22:36:55 z = x.split('(').split(')') 22:36:55 for i in z : 22:36:55 if i not in y : 22:36:55 x.replace(i,'func['+i+']') 22:36:57 return x 22:37:01 oh yeah, that's lazy. 22:37:08 possibly non-working, but let's hope! 22:44:49 Yesss. 22:45:59 Let's try the addition program! 22:46:47 owait, i forgot to define the s(x) thingy first. 22:50:41 -!- A1S523 has changed nick to comex. 22:58:02 -!- neldoreth has joined. 22:59:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 23:12:44 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 23:36:51 -!- CakeProphet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:39:09 forgot the case where the function is defined twice :( 23:39:21 this code is getting uglier with each exception 23:40:52 Slereah_: yes, because your code is shit 23:40:58 you shouldn't do eval like that 23:41:40 What would you advise? 23:41:53 what do you mean? 23:42:04 Instead of doing that. 23:42:07 ... 23:42:08 what 23:42:12 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection reset by peer). 23:42:23 I assumed that since you though it was shit, you'd have a better idea. 23:43:04 not doing that? 23:43:07 is my better idea. 23:43:18 And doing what instead? :o 23:43:28 what the heck do you mean! just write it normally 23:43:49 I'm afraid you'll have to define what "that" is a little better then 23:43:55 I'm not too sure what you're talking about 23:45:16 ... just write it as a normal interpreter 23:45:42 How would you go about that? 23:45:55 So far that's the best way I found. 23:46:55 I can't believe you don't know how to write an interpreter 23:46:59 It's so intuitive I can't even explain it 23:47:10 Heh. 23:47:24 I can do okay with machines that work step by step. 23:47:36 It's the whole function definition that's causing me troubles. 23:51:01 -!- AnMaster has joined. 23:53:19 I should rewrite it from the start and not forget shit. 23:53:29 But later. Now is sleepy time. 23:55:31 -!- atrapado has quit ("Abandonando"). 23:59:30 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).