00:02:02 <ehird> AnMaster: so, how surprising is it on the scale of 1 to 10 that i'm considering switching to pcs and ENTERPRISE LUNIX OPERATING SYSTEM(TM)
00:02:11 <ehird> I'm just trying to weigh up my remaining sanity
00:02:46 <AnMaster> ehird, is fractional values allowed?
00:02:54 <ehird> AnMaster: s/is/are/; yes.
00:03:27 <AnMaster> well, 8.43182 or so. +/-1.127825
00:03:35 <ehird> I was expecting 11.9
00:04:00 <oerjan> <ehird> "To install djbdns, ..." GO TO HELL BERNSTEIN
00:04:14 <oerjan> i think that's a bit much just to install djbdns
00:04:22 <AnMaster> ehird, so are you considering it?
00:04:45 <ehird> if i'm getting an isp that lets me do what i want served via a router that lets me do what I want that runs on an OS that lets me do what I want...
00:04:50 <ehird> well, I guess my computer should let me do what I want too.
00:04:52 <oerjan> unless it comes with a world domination feature
00:05:07 <AnMaster> ehird, Yes. Feel the power of the dark side... Err wrong one... Come back to the light side of Linux?
00:05:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Pretty much the only thing making me hang on to OS X is the typography.
00:05:41 <ehird> I've been tweaking Ubuntu's for days in a VM and I'm still not satisfied. :D
00:06:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well personally I'd want ColorSync about 3-5 times per month
00:06:12 <ehird> Maybe I'll get a CRT; they antialias by default (by blurring everything to hell)!
00:06:22 <AnMaster> typography doesn't matter that much
00:06:25 <ehird> I've never, ever used ColorSync AnMaster. Am I weird?
00:06:28 <ehird> Also, ooh boy don't say that.
00:06:34 <ehird> Typography is paramount.
00:06:47 <AnMaster> ehird, yes for you. And probably in other cases sure.
00:06:59 <AnMaster> I just mean to me personally color syncing is more important
00:07:22 <AnMaster> ehird, because I have an expensive camera that included colour profiles on the CD?
00:07:37 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'm interested in photography and so on
00:07:42 <ehird> Oh, the other thing keeping me is that, well, the hardware is sort of bulky. I'm not much a fan of bulky stuff. Some seem better though.
00:07:48 <ehird> E.g., thinkpads & thinkcentres are pretty sleek.
00:08:04 <AnMaster> ehird, you can run Linux on a mac though
00:08:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but it's kind of missing the point, isn't it? And the h/w support isn't too good.
00:08:33 <AnMaster> ehird, but I recommend a desktop that is 1-1.5 years old. Otherwise the hardware may be too new.
00:08:37 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm in the market for an upgrade. I can get it thousands cheaper if I buy a PC.
00:08:42 <ehird> That's a major factor.
00:08:51 <oerjan> ehird: that sounds like a weird kind of meta-honesty
00:09:13 <AnMaster> ehird, oh yes.. upgrades... Saw that video that made a joke of Apple's "I'm a mac, I'm a PC" one?
00:09:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Which one? There's thousands.
00:09:29 <oerjan> of course the papacy used it in earnest, i think
00:09:50 <AnMaster> ehird, PC got upgraded, Mac one got thrown out by next model. And that made the PC guy feel uneasy
00:09:55 <ehird> http://system76.com/ ← These are sleek, too bad they only ship to the USA and canuks.
00:10:10 <AnMaster> as in hit by next Mac model guy on the back of the head.
00:10:26 <ehird> and they come with ubuntu installed
00:11:18 <AnMaster> ehird, btw about upgrades. Computer case, PSU and one of the harddrives are the only original parts in my computer. Oh and the keyboard too.
00:11:25 <ehird> I just configured an "ideal megasystem" on system76; came out to £1,272
00:11:29 <AnMaster> ehird, everything else have been replaced over the years
00:11:46 <ehird> That's over two thousand pounds cheaper than the Mac Pro I was looking at.
00:11:59 <AnMaster> http://www.bogons.net/ has a better design than http://www.idnet.net/ IMO
00:12:06 <ehird> Well, the mac pro was a newer processor and it was 8 cores insetead of 4, but then it was also lower ghz.
00:12:13 <ehird> AnMaster: hey, system76 comes with an ATI card...
00:12:17 <ehird> yet they pre-install 64 bit ubuntu
00:12:20 <AnMaster> ehird, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
00:12:23 <ehird> Guess they only sell ones with good d rivers?
00:12:26 <ehird> "512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3 (DVI, VGA, S-Video, DVI to HDMI, DVI to VGA) "
00:12:42 <AnMaster> ehird, well... I'd go nvidia or intel
00:12:48 <AnMaster> depending on how important 3D is
00:12:49 -!- Asztal_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:13:04 <ehird> AnMaster: these are really cheap, though, and come without windows cruft, and are sleek
00:13:08 <AnMaster> AMD for CPU. Soundblaster Live! 5.1 from years ago for the sound card
00:13:12 <ehird> so if the ati has good drivers, well, that's fine by me
00:13:59 <ehird> it even comes with a 26" monitor because, you know, who cares about neck strain (i am very small)
00:14:04 <ehird> (I just basically maxed it out)
00:14:20 <ehird> Now to see if I can persuade them to ship to la UK
00:15:00 <AnMaster> flash drive is included as part?
00:15:08 <ehird> Country: [Canada | United States]
00:15:11 <ehird> Damn you system 76!
00:15:26 <ehird> I wonder if there's a service where, like, you ship to a holder place and they ship to you overseas.
00:15:35 <ehird> That would be quite profitable, I imagine.
00:15:39 <AnMaster> ehird, my dream desktop: $2,598.00
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00:15:51 <ehird> AnMaster: that's pretty cheap for a dream
00:15:56 <ehird> what specs did you put on it? from where
00:16:07 <ehird> I had 8gb ram on mine too
00:16:07 <AnMaster> http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=82&osCsid=01a86245f6be36d74b29fa9819293eae
00:16:23 <ehird> 2gb radeon 4870 X2 x16 thingy
00:16:30 <ehird> AnMaster: that doesn't show your choices
00:16:46 <AnMaster> maxed on all but flash and keyboard/mouse
00:16:59 <ehird> that's what i did, but I selected kb/mouse but I'm not sure why
00:17:13 <ehird> AnMaster: There's nothing intrinsically wrong with ATI. If the drivers are OK for the ones they ship, what's the problem?
00:17:13 <AnMaster> ehird, also why on earth would I buy it that way
00:17:28 <oerjan> bah propaganda.cn doesn't have a real website
00:18:04 <AnMaster> ehird, one with two serial connectors to begin with
00:18:04 <ehird> I'm really surprised how cheap system76 are
00:18:24 <ehird> A mac pro with the same specs, roughly, would cost £5,000 pounds or so
00:18:29 <ehird> You can only get up to £1,600 or so with this
00:18:46 <ehird> AnMaster: serial? srsly?
00:18:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I use that still for some old hardware
00:19:06 <ehird> http://system76.com/index.php?cPath=29 hey, if you buy a server you can get octo-core :-D
00:19:09 <ehird> probably expensive as fuck
00:19:13 <oerjan> ehird: did you just pull that propaganda.cn domain out of your ass?
00:19:24 <ehird> 2 x Quad Core Intel Xeon E5450 3.00 GHz 1333 MHz FSB 12 MB L2 45 nm ( +$2,150.00 )
00:19:34 <oerjan> so .cn probably has squatters too, or something
00:19:52 <oerjan> i cannot manage to google it, anyhow
00:19:54 <ehird> AnMaster: maxed out eland pro pedestal or rack:
00:20:11 <ehird> nothing wrong with intel
00:20:42 <ehird> AnMaster: do you know if such a ship-and-reship service exists?
00:21:25 <AnMaster> ehird, more seriously: I had a Pentium 4 once. It permanently damaged my trust of Intel.
00:21:34 <ehird> Well yeah pentium 4s are awful
00:21:40 <ehird> But core 2s are great
00:21:52 <ehird> Every company has bad times
00:21:58 <AnMaster> ehird, Maybe. The Core 7i (or was it i7?) look worse
00:22:14 <ehird> i7 has nehalem, which looks neat, but I'm not too fussed about that any more
00:22:35 <AnMaster> ehird, A friend of mine called his i7 for "pentium 4 new edition" yesterday...
00:22:47 <ehird> AnMaster: So I guess you don't know if such a reship thingy exists?
00:23:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: do you know if such a ship-and-reship service exists? <-- hm?
00:23:17 * AnMaster tries to locate the relevant line in scrollback it refers to
00:23:27 <ehird> AnMaster: As in, system76 only ships to USA and Canada, so I wonder if a service exists where you ship to an address in the USA, then they reship it on to your international address for a (large) fee?
00:23:33 <ehird> That would be useful and also very profitable
00:24:08 <ehird> Worst case, I can ask a friend in the US to handle it, maybe
00:24:23 <ehird> AnMaster: didn't you say night an hour ago?
00:24:55 <AnMaster> I did. Bad resolve I think the technical term is?
00:25:46 <ehird> Well, system76 looks great
00:25:54 <ehird> I hate large form factors
00:25:57 <AnMaster> btw that server: You won't need monitor or such Nor DVD-RW
00:26:12 <ehird> AnMaster: I meant to use the server as a desktop machine
00:26:13 <AnMaster> a server you only use CD in once: initial install
00:26:28 <AnMaster> ehird, they don't come in quiet editions in my experience
00:26:36 <AnMaster> because no one will care in a servere room
00:26:49 <ehird> AnMaster: Hmm ... http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=81 has the specs of the higher end desktop but seems to go cheaper
00:26:56 <ehird> It doesn't have as many video card options though
00:27:08 <AnMaster> "Currently Out of Stock - Please Check Back Soon"
00:27:11 <ehird> the memory isn't ddr3
00:27:15 <ehird> 'up to 8 GB Blazing Fast DDR 3 Memory '
00:27:21 <ehird> on the higher end one
00:27:36 <ehird> http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=91 WOW is this low end
00:28:13 <ehird> AnMaster: look at the cpu specs!
00:28:15 <AnMaster> it beats both my pentium 2 and pentium 3 easily
00:28:22 <ehird> modern low end I mean
00:28:27 <ehird> I couldn't bear to work on such a machine
00:28:38 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be a thin client probably?
00:28:46 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it's meant for low-end desktop users
00:29:00 <ehird> Even my mother's computer is dual-core, though, and she just uses gmail :-P
00:29:12 <AnMaster> interesting servers have "no OS" option, but clients doesn't
00:29:26 <ehird> Well, they get a lot of publicity from the ubuntu camp
00:29:29 <AnMaster> Ubuntu 8.04 LTS Server Edition 64 bit
00:29:29 <AnMaster> Ubuntu 8.10 Server Edition 64 bit
00:29:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Long Term Support
00:29:43 <ehird> occasionally they do a release that they support for like 4 years
00:30:20 <AnMaster> ehird, mine is single core, but it was rather upper middle end in 2005
00:30:44 <ehird> The maxed out "Wild Dog" one is middle high end
00:30:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I won't buy a new CPU until I need one.
00:30:50 <ehird> Where the high end is things like nehalem 8-cores
00:30:58 <ehird> 26" KDS Widescreen LCD (1920 x 1200) ( +$380.00 )
00:31:00 <ehird> I wonder who KDS are
00:31:07 <ehird> http://www.kdsusa.com/
00:31:10 <ehird> Never heard of them
00:31:28 <ehird> Hope that Wild Dog thing has controllable fans
00:31:31 <ehird> Well, it probably does.
00:31:48 <AnMaster> ehird, real dream: Modern massively parallel Lisp machine with a real time IBM Roadrunner emulator built in
00:32:01 <ehird> My real dream is a pony.
00:32:16 <AnMaster> that's not as cool as a lisp machine
00:32:16 <ehird> Someone should install linux on a pony
00:32:27 <ehird> Like, operate on them and put computer stuff in between the organs
00:32:35 <ehird> Then boot linux on it
00:32:43 <ehird> It neighs, it boots!
00:32:58 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Roadrunner_supercomputer_HiRes.jpg
00:33:14 <ehird> Wouldn't want to dust that thing
00:33:54 <ehird> "The Roadrunner uses Red Hat Enterprise Linux along with Fedora as its operating systems "
00:34:00 <ehird> lol, I can't imagine booting fedora on that
00:34:04 <ehird> It'd be like... like... I don't know
00:34:09 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, would have to install Gentoo on it
00:34:24 <ehird> "Linus Torvalds, author of the Linux kernel, says he uses Fedora because it had fairly good support for PowerPC when he used that processor architecture. He became accustomed to the operating system and continues to use it."
00:34:30 <ehird> AnMaster: a few minutes? Seriously?
00:34:32 <ehird> It'd only take seconds.
00:34:42 <AnMaster> ehird, it is optimised for floating point stuff
00:34:43 <ehird> it's massively, massively parallel
00:34:48 <ehird> "12,960 IBM PowerXCell[6] 8i CPUs and 6,480 AMD Opteron dual-core processors"
00:34:53 <ehird> You could compile all the files at once
00:34:57 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not the point
00:35:02 <ehird> you can compile everything at once, pretty much
00:35:21 <ehird> AnMaster: regardless, KDE takes, what,an hour on a high end machine?
00:35:39 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure. Mine isn't that high end
00:35:46 <AnMaster> it takes around 4 hours on this one
00:35:56 <AnMaster> for kdelibs + kdebase + kdevelop
00:36:05 <AnMaster> which are the parts of KDE I use basically
00:36:09 <ehird> The best way to justify a purchase of an expensive new PC
00:36:17 <ehird> is to compile gcc with -j(1.5*cores)
00:36:21 <ehird> and watch it flow by
00:36:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I compiled some C++ apps on a Quad core Opetron server yesterday
00:37:03 <ehird> How does opteron match up to core 2?
00:37:10 <ehird> I guess roughly the same
00:37:22 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, you should move c-intercal
00:37:27 <ehird> gopher over ipv6 only
00:38:15 <AnMaster> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Roadrunner_supercomputer_HiRes.jpg <-- interesting warning label
00:38:17 <ehird> how do people use huge displays?
00:38:22 <ehird> don't their necks hurt :|
00:38:33 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you define huge in this case
00:38:40 <ehird> AnMaster: "If you touch a computer, it will fall down and another will take its place."
00:38:47 <ehird> AnMaster: No, I have a 20" here
00:38:50 <ehird> I mean like 26" up
00:39:03 <ehird> I guess they just have it lower down
00:39:08 <ehird> and are bigger than me :P
00:39:28 <AnMaster> ehird, btw does that mean you can hotplug modules in IBM Roadrunner?
00:39:43 <ehird> AnMaster: "meep meep"
00:39:53 <ehird> in other news, AMD renames themselves to Acme
00:40:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Wile E. Coyote, Roadrunner…
00:40:24 <AnMaster> ehird, btw see those AMD labels? Want Intel or AMD now? ;P
00:40:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Give me ten thousand of them and I'll think about it :-)
00:41:12 <AnMaster> meh. s/give/let you pay for yourself and test/ and I'm with you
00:41:28 <ehird> slicehost don't do ipv6 :-(
00:41:56 <ehird> Well, it must be said that, you know, not many people use ipv6.
00:42:01 <AnMaster> did you see the second 1 april RFC this year?
00:42:10 <ehird> It did prove to be a good way to narrow down my ISP choices, though — to include only competent ones.
00:42:56 <AnMaster> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5513
00:43:15 <ehird> For example, RFC is a TLA formed of the first letters of the
00:43:15 <ehird> phrase Rugby Football Club [URL-CARDIFF].
00:44:08 <ehird> http://system76.com/images/wild_dog_P5_large_back.jpg ← Doesn't this have less than the minimum required Port Cruft for a PC?
00:44:16 <ehird> There's legal standards for PC ugliness, you know.
00:44:39 <AnMaster> ehird, yes they removed serial. Which is why it is a no-go
00:44:50 <ehird> Yeah, if you're a dinosaur :P
00:44:51 <AnMaster> also it is too wide or not tall enough
00:45:00 <ehird> No, it's just right, I hate big PCs :-D
00:45:31 <AnMaster> ehird, it wouldn't work in Europe. Observe back of power supply.
00:45:46 <ehird> AnMaster: can't you get an adapter?
00:46:08 <ehird> it'd be a shame to lose it over something so, well, trivial
00:46:11 <AnMaster> ehird, that would remove the "low power usage thingy" mentioned there though
00:46:22 <ehird> why wouldn't an adapter preserve that?
00:46:57 <AnMaster> ehird, adapters leaks in the form of heat and such. Even those built into the power supply in the computer
00:47:02 <AnMaster> add more and you get more leakage
00:47:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, if it was a good adapter it wouldnt' add too much overhead would it?
00:47:58 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I don't have hard figures on that. But still you will get some leakage for every adapter you add
00:48:06 <AnMaster> but couldn't you replace power supply?
00:48:12 <ehird> AnMaster: you mean internally?
00:48:17 <ehird> I'm not sure I trust myself to do that
00:48:26 <AnMaster> they aren't screws though on the back
00:48:30 <ehird> AnMaster: how much do they cost?
00:48:44 <ehird> also, yes there are
00:48:50 <ehird> AnMaster: the silver things on the black border
00:49:02 <AnMaster> ehird, search me. I just know I took mine out once to be able to blow away some dust
00:49:30 <AnMaster> ehird, what sort of screwhead? Surface seeems even to me
00:49:44 <ehird> AnMaster: look at the top-right one
00:49:50 <ehird> there's a single horizontal line
00:50:03 <ehird> AnMaster: you'd just take it all off, no?
00:50:06 <ehird> and operate inside
00:50:19 <ehird> I'll ask my hardware-y USian friend, I guess
00:50:52 <ehird> Nice, the system76 people are on the ubuntu forums
00:51:10 <AnMaster> ehird, well on my case you remove the side of the case first, then you hold your hand under the PSU to prevent it falling down while removing the screws from the outside. in the locations of those "balls" aprox.
00:51:15 <MizardX> One big cable to the mother board. One cable to each device. Not very hard to replug if you remove it.
00:51:15 <ehird> ahh - that slow atom thing hyperthreads
00:51:51 <ehird> "Why so expensive?" on the system76 forums o_O
00:52:07 <AnMaster> ehird, make interface harder and more geeks would get highly paid
00:52:13 <ehird> AnMaster: sort of like c++/
00:52:30 <AnMaster> that's what C++ is all about indeed.
00:52:38 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.erenkrantz.com/Humor/FakeIEEEStroustrupInterview.shtml
00:53:02 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I read that. I just played that reply for the dramatic effet.
00:53:15 <AnMaster> I was in fact even thinking about http://www.erenkrantz.com/Humor/FakeIEEEStroustrupInterview.shtml as I wrote it
00:53:49 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway keep the geeks who are good at designing noob friendly interfaces well away from any interfaces
00:54:09 <ehird> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1111781
00:54:12 <ehird> >I wanted to know if System76 planned to release any Core i7 desktops in the near future.
00:54:12 <ehird> I'm sure we probably will. We're always looking into the latest and greatest. I don't have specs or an ETA available, though.
00:54:13 <AnMaster> ehird, provide a high voltage external connector if needed
00:54:22 <ehird> Don't do that to me, guys! I can't upgrade if you're about to upgrade :-)
00:55:09 <AnMaster> truth is, it would keep me away too....
00:55:14 <ehird> So... system76 "wild dog" quad core 2.83ghz + bogons internet w/ openwrt-installed linux wireless linksys router
00:55:25 <ehird> It's like "The Metamorphisis".
00:55:35 <AnMaster> ehird, do you need that computer for bogons internet?
00:55:52 <ehird> It's a "one thing lead to another" thing.
00:55:56 <ehird> And sort of, except more "reality" than "dream".
00:56:02 <ehird> As in, "this is what I'm planning to get"
00:56:19 <AnMaster> Personal IBM Roadrunner colocated with at googleplex.
00:56:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Imagine having complete access to Google's server farm
00:56:51 <AnMaster> ehird, no, that would melt my mind
00:56:58 <AnMaster> I'd rather not try to imagine it
00:57:03 <ehird> AnMaster: so THAT's how they do their indexing!
00:57:05 <ehird> invite people to try it out
00:57:09 <ehird> they put them in a jar
00:57:13 <ehird> hook it up to the computers
00:57:18 <ehird> == amazing computing power
00:57:27 <AnMaster> ehird, it would only melt geeks' brains right?
00:57:35 <AnMaster> I mean a manager would not be affected
00:57:44 <ehird> AnMaster: no, they make it look like a windows desktop for them
00:57:51 <ehird> but whenever you open outlook or IE
00:57:55 <ehird> it turns into a really old unix system
00:57:58 <ehird> error messages all over the place
00:58:00 <ehird> huge virus warnings
00:58:06 <AnMaster> would that melt the mind of a manager?
00:58:17 <ehird> AnMaster: When the manager calls for a techie,
00:58:30 <ehird> androids supposedly infected with a virus come and yell at them.
00:58:36 <AnMaster> that techie's mind would melt...
00:58:42 <ehird> What can the manager do?
00:58:49 <ehird> Call for more techies./
00:58:55 <ehird> Then they just heat the room up so it melts.
00:59:41 <AnMaster> meh I'm almost falling asleep on keyboard. I'm going to eat some garlic (yum!) and go to sleep
01:00:04 <ehird> Garlic is a nice seasoner
01:00:45 <ehird> AnMaster: s/mind/garlic/
01:01:32 <AnMaster> ehird, and I allow bacon to coexist if you want. Maybe you could try garlic and bacon flavour
01:01:52 <ehird> But bacon is best with more bacon.
01:02:03 <AnMaster> For you ehird bacon is holy. For me it is garlic.
01:02:17 <AnMaster> ehird, and I'd say garlic is best with more garlic
01:02:31 <AnMaster> however, Swedes are known for compromises.
01:02:54 <ehird> "2.1 - Logitech X-230 - 2 Satellites, 1 Subwoofer ( +$49.00 )"
01:02:56 <AnMaster> we always try to reach some solution that isn't too bad for either side.
01:03:00 <ehird> Those speakers look nice.
01:03:15 <ehird> I have crappy internal ones atm
01:03:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I wouldn't buy them. I prefer my high end headphones. AKG 240 Studio.
01:03:32 <ehird> I like speakers and headphones. It depends.
01:03:39 <AnMaster> have yet to find speakers giving as good sound as them
01:03:51 <AnMaster> the even manage bass very well.
01:04:40 <AnMaster> sv:bas means both en:base and en:bass
01:04:49 <AnMaster> which means I mix them up in English sometimes
01:04:51 <ehird> I generally prefer speakers because headphones tend to... well, the music clogs my brain.
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01:05:06 <ehird> Without the atmosphere noises & echo and whatnot that come from speakers, the sound sort of blots out other thought.
01:05:18 <ehird> So I can use headphones when just idly browsing the web and listening to music, but not really much else.
01:05:47 <AnMaster> ehird, hm. Your harddrive isn't as loud clearly :P
01:06:09 <ehird> I need my components to be near-silent.
01:06:20 <AnMaster> ehird, I wish I had that. I don't.
01:06:25 <ehird> I like the sound of ... well, not silence, just the sound of a room without any noise in it.
01:06:51 <ehird> Guess you could say my favourite song is 4'33"
01:07:06 <AnMaster> ehird, often see people working with machines with them
01:07:13 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earmuffs
01:07:21 <AnMaster> I heard the word "ear protector" too I think?
01:08:02 <ehird> Hey, does anyone know if you can get the BIOS to not spew info?
01:08:03 <AnMaster> ehird, I usually use mine when working with my computer
01:08:10 <ehird> I like a bootup process without lots of text.
01:08:17 <AnMaster> ehird, no, I only know how to get it to spew more
01:08:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Wow, how loud are your fans?
01:08:30 <ehird> I used to sleep next to my computer
01:08:38 <ehird> Shitty mobo, shitty cpu, <1gb of ram, shitty fans
01:08:39 <AnMaster> ehird, + I'm over-sensitive to sound
01:08:47 <ehird> And I was only a few cm away from it
01:08:49 <AnMaster> as in, I got much better than normal hearing
01:09:16 <AnMaster> ehird, so they aren't that loud to other people
01:09:26 <ehird> I have rather precise hearing.
01:09:45 <AnMaster> well I'm less gifted in the sight department
01:10:08 <ehird> I can pick out individual pixels from not-that-close to a monitor
01:10:11 <ehird> Well, not if it's high dpi
01:10:22 <ehird> I can't really watch analog tvs
01:10:25 <AnMaster> ehird, heh I can't do that unless I bend very close
01:10:27 <ehird> Too much distortion
01:10:41 <ehird> I guess you could say I'm a pedant in more than just language.
01:11:11 <AnMaster> ehird, luckily this room is too small to have the bed in, and the other room to small to have the desk in. Thus I sleep in another room where I don't hear the computer
01:11:21 <ehird> I guess it's funny that I don't really like headphones when I like post-rock
01:11:30 <ehird> Sort of contradictory there.
01:12:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I find headphones are excellent for classical music (in the wider sense too)
01:12:13 <ehird> Well, post-rock is very related to classical music.
01:12:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't really know which genre post-rock is
01:12:54 <AnMaster> as soon as it says "post" it is too new to have a proper name IMO
01:13:06 <ehird> AnMaster: It's basically classical music done with electric guitars. Tends to be a bit pretentious.
01:13:29 <AnMaster> interesting. We share that taste heh
01:13:32 <ehird> AnMaster: I like Autechre's Gantz Graf: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfwD05XA2YQ -- go figure.
01:13:44 <ehird> This is actually limbo.
01:14:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Post-death, between heaven and hell.
01:14:22 <ehird> The catholics are more precise about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo
01:14:29 <ehird> "the afterlife condition of those who die in original sin without being assigned to the Hell of the damned"
01:14:46 <ehird> AnMaster: autechre isn't post-rock
01:14:59 <ehird> You should load that in your youtubey-thingy so you can marvel at what bad taste I have.
01:15:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> "the afterlife condition of those who die in original sin without being assigned to the Hell of the damned" <--- space constraints in hell?
01:16:36 <AnMaster> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfwD05XA2YQ <-- this is music?
01:17:09 <AnMaster> so... the world _is_ comming to an end
01:17:11 <ehird> [[Sarah Dempster, writing for the NME, gave the EP a strongly negative review, claiming "It bleeps. It skronks. It krrraaaanks. But mainly, it blows like a ruddy awful hurricane." She also called it a "festering hillock of tune-shy bum-wank."]]
01:17:18 <ehird> I agree completely and I still like it :-D
01:18:01 <ehird> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/72/Autechremax.jpg <-- This is the kind of thing the group who made that do
01:18:11 <ehird> I can't for the life of me understand a colour picker in a music application but there you go
01:18:41 <ehird> It's not safe for mind.
01:18:55 <ehird> If you consider that it purports to create music.
01:19:02 <AnMaster> but I don't know what it means
01:19:13 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't think _they_ do
01:19:44 <ehird> They're not running
01:19:48 <ehird> Only the ones with a ^ are running
01:20:03 <ehird> AnMaster: It's a sequencing thingy used by Autechre, who made that Gantz Graf thing
01:20:08 <AnMaster> too many apps in the dock still
01:20:12 <ehird> It's in max/msp which is like visual programming for audio/video stuff
01:20:19 <ehird> And it's completely insane
01:20:34 <AnMaster> ehird, what's the colour picker for?
01:20:36 <ehird> 'Coreboot (previously LinuxBIOS) is something that our R&D department keeps an eye on. At some point in the future we may use it. However, there is a lot of testing that needs to be done before we could adopt it as a BIOS replacement. '
01:20:44 <ehird> AnMaster: one of the input parameters to it
01:20:54 <ehird> I didn't know you could install coreboot
01:21:24 <AnMaster> ehird, well you can flash it into your old BIOS
01:21:34 <ehird> AnMaster: er... what does that involve?
01:21:36 <ehird> it sounds very scary
01:22:09 <AnMaster> ehird, booting a floppy, and making sure your BIOS is removable so you can replace the chipset with a backup one if something fails
01:22:24 <ehird> oh, i was expecting like, soldering
01:23:08 <ehird> does coreboot have any advantages apart from being opensourc?
01:23:11 <ehird> like, is it faster?
01:23:17 <ehird> '- Fast boot times 3 sec. '
01:23:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I think it can boot linux faster yes
01:23:44 <AnMaster> ehird, your hardware could die if you fail it though
01:23:51 <ehird> AnMaster: 1yr warranty
01:23:58 <ehird> i guess it might not count if it's my fault :-)
01:24:02 <AnMaster> ehird, flashing bios would void warranty
01:24:19 <AnMaster> that is except official upgrades
01:24:35 <AnMaster> I flashed the BIOS on a dell once that couldn't keep it's time
01:24:37 <ehird> so 3 seconds in bios
01:24:43 <ehird> then ~20-30 sec in linux booting
01:24:50 <ehird> that'd be even faster to boot than this mac
01:25:00 <AnMaster> ehird, um I got those 20 seconds down to 13 on my p3
01:25:09 <AnMaster> though I admit it doesn't start X
01:25:15 <ehird> AnMaster: doesn't count :-)
01:25:17 <AnMaster> it starts sshd and nfsd basically
01:25:39 <AnMaster> oh and syslog and cron of course
01:25:58 <ehird> Say, what's the recommended filesystem for data/os these days?
01:26:05 <ehird> ext3 for os/progs?
01:26:12 <AnMaster> ehird, oh my. Why did you ask about ise vs ize...
01:26:31 <ehird> ext3 for os/progs, and what for data?
01:27:15 <AnMaster> ehird, I use ext3 for / /boot /usr /var, xfs for rest. With different block sizes depending on for what
01:27:23 <ehird> xfs... isn't that the sun thing?
01:27:37 <ehird> I may just put it all on one fs to avoid slowness copying between partitions
01:27:46 <ehird> AnMaster: I hate the forced regular fsck
01:27:50 <ehird> oh I was thinking of zfs
01:28:08 <ehird> but yeah... "I hate the forced regular fsck" a lot
01:28:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well you can disable that forced fsck
01:28:19 <AnMaster> if you know the relevant man pages
01:28:20 <ehird> AnMaster: is that good for stability, though/
01:28:30 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess it is an extra safe guard
01:28:39 <AnMaster> but with small partitions it doesn't take long anyway
01:29:05 <ehird> AnMaster: 750gb :-P
01:29:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I just said you _could_, I didn't recommend it
01:29:24 <AnMaster> ehird, that's one disk (in a RAID 1 pair), not one partition
01:29:39 <ehird> for better or for worse
01:29:49 <ehird> oh wait you can get 1tb
01:29:57 <AnMaster> anyway I'm too sleepy to explain partitioning that I prefer. Partly it depends on your own needs too
01:30:27 <ehird> AnMaster: my current backup plan is http://www.tarsnap.com/, which encrypts your backup with aes and puts it on amazon s3 (which a lot of businesses etc critically rely on, so it's very stable)
01:30:53 <AnMaster> why does the clicky url include the ,
01:31:01 <ehird> blame yer client :D
01:31:18 <AnMaster> ehird, I blame the messenger instead ;P
01:31:53 <ehird> AnMaster: from looking around, ati cards seem fine in linux as long as they're one of the well-supported ones
01:32:02 <ehird> AnMaster: also, something like a few cents a gig
01:32:04 <ehird> it's ridiculously cheap
01:32:08 <ehird> but tarsnap pays it for you
01:32:13 <ehird> colin percival runs it
01:32:49 <ehird> As you use tarsnap, money will be deducted from your account daily at a rate of
01:32:49 <ehird> 300 picodollars USD per byte of bandwidth used ($0.30 / GB), and
01:32:50 <ehird> 300 picodollars USD per byte-month of storage ($0.30 / GB / month).
01:33:10 <ehird> so that'd be $225 a month to back up a 750gb drive
01:33:18 <ehird> that's just for storage
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01:51:48 <oerjan> the kind you get from an ATM machine if you've can just remember your PIN number
01:53:05 <oerjan> i wonder if this was covered in that request RFC about the TLA acronyms
01:53:51 <Robdgreat> I'm from the Dept. of Redundancy Dept. You're coming with me.
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01:54:39 <oerjan> http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2450.txt <<< wait, what?
01:55:39 <oerjan> the DRD department will _never_ get me *runs*
01:58:39 * Robdgreat drops a hot water heater on oerjan
01:59:27 * oerjan gives the heater a cold shoulder
02:00:31 * oerjan decapitates the heater and takes a shower in the process
02:01:00 <Robdgreat> for your FYI, that hot water heater was just like a hot water heater to me
02:01:41 * oerjan turns the corpse into a makeshift fort
02:02:04 <Robdgreat> you're surrounded on all sides! Surrender and give yourself up!
02:04:51 <oerjan> i surrender, i seem to have run out of redundancies
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02:06:40 <Robdgreat> now look what you've done. you've gone and woken Sgeo
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02:32:21 <kerlo> What are we talking about and talking about?
02:32:40 <kerlo> (Yep, that and that are right. It's the really annoying and annoying way of being redundant and redundant.)
02:36:04 <oerjan> but it is neither clever nor clever
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02:48:56 <kerlo> It wouldn't be annoying if it were clever, now, would it?
02:49:06 <kerlo> (As opposed to ". . ., now, would it.")
02:51:01 <oerjan> it might. i'm sure John Cleese could pull it off.
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07:57:01 <fizzie> AnMaster always says "night" a couple of times, but never manages to actually go away.
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14:44:27 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: hmm, does cfunge 0.4.0 have been released officially? it seems kuonet.org works now but not updated.
14:45:29 <lifthrasiir> ah i thought http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/cfunge/ is official page; but there is also sf.net project...
14:46:55 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, yes it works now, but I haven't had time to update it
14:47:10 <AnMaster> trying to fix a broken backup script atm...
14:47:18 <AnMaster> (that is way more important to me...)
14:47:27 <lifthrasiir> then i should mention your sysinfo-multi-stack-sizes.b98 has a bug... ;)
14:49:52 <lifthrasiir> i should recheck the issue... not sure yet
14:50:30 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, It may be wrong, I remember Deewiant and me discussing what was the right order to push the sizes of the stack-stacks in.
14:50:53 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, that is quite possible, it is a bit old and mycology used to misinterpret the specs for k
14:51:08 <lifthrasiir> there is 12 cells and 5 vectors to be pushed by y command before stack stack information...
14:51:17 <Deewiant> Everybody used to misinterpret the specs for k :-P
14:51:38 <AnMaster> had to change the way k was handled when Mike Riley showed up with a test suite that was written by C Pressy that handled it differently
14:52:09 <Deewiant> Well, the fact that you can never iterate only once wasn't exactly expected :-P
14:52:53 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: ah, okay. 2a*k$ is correct, because y pushes 9 cells, 5 vectors, 2 cells, size of stack stacks and list of sizes of stack stacks.
14:53:12 <lifthrasiir> in befunge-98 there are 9+5*2+2=21 cells before size of stack stacks so that should be 2a*k$
14:53:16 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, so it was correct in new scheme?
14:54:13 <lifthrasiir> (i think i have to learn arithmetic again... :S)
14:55:01 <lifthrasiir> i got confused when i miscounted that number of cells to be 22, not 21
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14:58:47 * oklopol_ suddenly realizes he has another computer
15:04:59 <oklopol_> well i had access to a computer anyway, just couldn't irc that much
15:05:34 <oklopol_> this keyboard is kinda cool, it's been on the floor for about half a year, and i recently spilled a cup of coffee on it
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16:59:32 <ehird> http://www.kdsusa.com/K2626mdhwb.asp
17:05:00 <ehird> hmm the pixel pitch is higher than this display
17:09:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw, I don't know when you plan to update the mycology result page next, but locally efunge passes mycology now. It has a known bug with k over k, but so does CCBI
17:09:51 <AnMaster> Opening mycotmp0.tmp... failed.
17:09:51 <AnMaster> Trying to write to it with o...
17:09:51 <AnMaster> UNDEF: writing to mycotmp0.tmp with o failed: can't test i in binary mode
17:10:08 <Deewiant> I maintain that CCBI's behaviour is not a bug
17:10:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, i is implemented but o isn't (and y says that correctly)
17:10:29 <AnMaster> the i/o related output seems kind of odd...
17:10:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, which is why that isn't BAD.
17:10:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the reason why it can't test o is not the right one though...
17:10:46 <Deewiant> I couldn't be bothered to fix it properly so that it'd say 'UNDEF: o is not implemented' instead.
17:11:03 <Deewiant> It tries o and fails, and then it checks if it's supposed to work or not.
17:11:10 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is it still hard to insert extra code into mycology or?
17:11:24 <AnMaster> didn't you say you made that easier using { to set storage offset or something
17:11:25 <Deewiant> That area is trickier than most since it's right next to where mycorand.bf is loaded
17:11:44 <Deewiant> I don't think I can assume that {} work at that point either :-P
17:12:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can, you test that before you test y
17:12:10 <Deewiant> But it's not fatal if it fails
17:12:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if it isn't fatal you can't assume it anywhere in mycology can you?
17:12:42 <Deewiant> They're only needed for fingerprints and I explicitly say somewhere that fingerprints shouldn't be tested until the core works
17:13:00 <Deewiant> What are you doing implementing fingerprints into a broken interpreter anyway? :-P
17:13:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it passes mycology, it can't be broken then can it? ;P
17:13:58 <Deewiant> Wasn't directed at you, just a hypothetical
17:14:13 <AnMaster> NULL, MODU, ROMA, CPLI and FIXP are implemented in efunge
17:14:22 <AnMaster> also yes it also have the bounds bug
17:14:43 <AnMaster> and I'm currently working on it in cfunge, should have more time today
17:16:58 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw efunge defines Erlang as it's host env. This is because erlang will set/change certain environment variables, such as $PATH
17:17:15 <AnMaster> it is impossible to work around that.
17:17:19 <AnMaster> it is documented in the README.
17:19:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, for example, on my system these are the changes made by the erlang runtime: http://rafb.net/p/DCezyl46.html
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17:30:27 <Deewiant> All right, fixed the Hello! example on the DOBELA page and my interpreter runs it correctly \o/
17:33:20 <Deewiant> 3792 bytes, I wonder if I can put the whole thing in 4 Kio
17:33:47 <Deewiant> Probably not, but 5 should be doable :-)
17:40:12 <ehird> hey AnMaster, i just realised what gfx card i have in here
17:40:17 * ehird watches AnMaster's seizure
17:42:37 <Deewiant> I have an X1400 Mobility on my laptop
17:43:26 <AnMaster> ehird, how well does it work under Linux when doing OpenGL heavy stuff?
17:43:27 <ehird> i shall be getting a Radeon 4870 in this new box if everything goes to plan
17:43:38 <ehird> AnMaster: well, I haven't tried, but compiz works fine with it
17:44:23 <Deewiant> I have a 4870 in my current machine
17:44:30 <ehird> Deewiant: what video mem/
17:44:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I was thinking more about 3D games. For example Flightgear is so opengl heavy it has caused bugs to show up in certain nvidia driver versions too, some developer called it an opengl testsuite as a joke iirc
17:44:42 <ehird> i was going for '2 GB ATI Radeon 4870 X2 PCI-Express x16 GDDR5'
17:44:54 <ehird> AnMaster: I can try glxgears if you want.
17:45:07 <AnMaster> ehird, that usually works okish
17:45:46 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, well, why not.
17:45:49 * AnMaster remembers when 32 MB was a lot of video memory
17:46:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I bet this machine could run Crysis.
17:46:18 <ehird> AnMaster: it's an fps whose large system requirements are a meme
17:46:57 <ehird> Minimum system requirements
17:46:57 <ehird> from Crytek and EA
17:46:58 <ehird> OS - Windows XP or Windows Vista
17:47:01 <ehird> Processor - 2.8 GHz or faster (XP) or 3.2 GHz or faster* (Vista)
17:47:02 <ehird> Memory - 1.0 GB RAM (XP) or 1.5 GB RAM (Vista)
17:47:04 <ehird> Video Card -256 MB**
17:47:09 <ehird> and that's just the minimum
17:47:12 <ehird> Recommended System Requirements
17:47:12 <ehird> from Crytek and EA
17:47:15 <ehird> OS - Windows XP / Vista
17:47:16 <ehird> Processor - Intel Core 2 DUO @ 2.2GHz or AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+
17:47:18 <ehird> Memory - 2.0 GB RAM
17:47:21 <ehird> GPU - NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTS/640 or similar
17:48:01 <AnMaster> interesting how Vista needs a lot more for CPU and memory...
17:48:09 <AnMaster> btw what is the * and ** there?
17:48:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Er, footnote thingies
17:48:33 <AnMaster> ehird, duh, I meant what does the footnotes say...
17:48:35 <ehird> * Supported Processors: Intel Pentium 4 2.8 GHz (3.2 GHz for Vista) or faster, Intel Core 2.0 GHz (2.2 GHz for Vista) or faster, AMD Athlon 2800+ (3200+ for Vista) or faster.
17:48:36 <ehird> ** Supported chipsets: NVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT or greater; ATI Radeon 9800 Pro (Radeon X800 Pro for Vista) or greater. Laptop versions of these chipsets may work but are not supported. Integrated chipsets are not supported. Updates to your video and sound card drivers may be required.
17:48:55 <ehird> AnMaster: I think since system76 are in the ubuntu community etc there're probably good drivers for the cards
17:49:21 <AnMaster> but they only ship in US and CA remember?
17:49:30 <ehird> AnMaster: I have friends in the u
17:49:40 <ehird> who could ship it to me
17:49:40 <AnMaster> + then there is the power supply voltage issue
17:49:53 <ehird> AnMaster: I can replace the power supply
17:49:57 <AnMaster> ehird, would you trust those friends not to keep it for themselves?
17:50:09 <ehird> AnMaster: You have shitty friends. :-P
17:50:52 * AnMaster refrains from a reply that would lead to another ignore-from-both-side-war
17:50:54 <ehird> I wouldn't be friends with someone who would steal a pc & money from me
17:52:21 <AnMaster> ehird, I assume none of your friends is named Nobby then
17:52:58 <ehird> That would be a true statement.
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17:53:24 <AnMaster> ehird, btw those system requirements above, odd that the footnote for video card contains info about sound card drivers...
17:53:41 <ehird> AnMaster: there was another line about the soundcard
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17:53:58 * ehird asks stuff in the system76 forums
17:55:09 <AnMaster> well those minimum system requirements listed above does seem rather large, but only two are outrageous: XP/Vista for OS, and 12 GB for harddrive.
17:55:32 <AnMaster> the recommended ones seems outrageous too.
17:55:56 <ehird> well, 12gb hd is standard these days
17:56:02 <ehird> i mean, games in 2003 were 5gb
17:56:25 <AnMaster> ehird, well but presumably it means it will use 12 GB, not that it will fit on a 12 GB large harddrive that also contains vista...
17:57:24 <AnMaster> ehird, you know, I think it would be a good thing to force everyone at EA to work with the demo scene for DOS for a few months, might bring the game size down a bit...
17:57:36 <ehird> I love the demoscene
17:57:58 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWeh9VQyP3E ← I can't believe they fit this into 64k in an amiga
17:58:22 <AnMaster> because there are things to optimise stuff that a lot of people don't know. For example the cvs(!) checkout of the full data directory for flightgear is huge. Around 800 MB...
17:58:52 <AnMaster> but I managed to save 50 just by re-compressing all the png textures with advpng -z2 and optipng -i0 -o3
17:59:02 * ehird reads the marketing site for the speakers http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/208&cl=roeu,en
17:59:10 <AnMaster> bloated png files is a real issue these days :/
17:59:44 <AnMaster> ehird, hm ok. but what about: the issue of bloated png files is/are a real issue these days :/
17:59:49 <ehird> AnMaster: it's are
17:59:57 <ehird> the issue of bloated png files is a real one these days
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18:00:10 <ehird> the satellites look like traffic lights
18:00:17 <AnMaster> ehird, there it is singular, but in the other case it is plural...
18:00:19 <ehird> http://www.logitech.com/repository/324/jpg/2325.1.0.jpg
18:00:24 <ehird> AnMaster: an issue is one thing
18:00:36 <ehird> AnMaster: but in "bloated png files"
18:00:45 <ehird> you're referring to multiple png files being the singular issue
18:00:52 <AnMaster> ehird, it all be so much clear if we used S-Expressions to group it
18:01:04 <ehird> s/\ball/would all/
18:02:15 <AnMaster> (is (issue (bloated (png-files))) (these-days (real issue)))
18:02:29 <AnMaster> or we could just learn lojban instead
18:03:02 <AnMaster> ehird, what does it use , and . for?
18:03:10 <ehird> AnMaster: err, like, breaking and stuff
18:03:11 <ehird> 01 Aug 2007 11:28:46 <ehird`> xu mi cusku lo'u mi'e .Eli,at. xrd. le'u
18:03:19 <AnMaster> also does google translate do lojban
18:03:21 <ehird> I think that's "I say 'my name is Elliott Hird'"
18:03:31 <AnMaster> hm how did you work out that line there then?
18:03:44 <ehird> AnMaster: That was from #lojban when I was learning it
18:03:46 <ehird> I've forgotten it all now
18:04:01 <AnMaster> hm strange that names are changed like that
18:04:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Not really; it's just like romanization.
18:04:40 <AnMaster> I mean usually you write a French name in a Swedish or English text in it's original form and so on. Exception being other scripts being transcribed to the Latin charset
18:05:02 <ehird> Like: xu mi cusku lo'u mi'e .Eli,at. xrd. le'u
18:05:02 <ehird> Which is: Did I say/Do I say "I am named Elliott Hird"
18:05:06 <ehird> AnMaster: x is like ch in bach
18:05:10 <AnMaster> idea: make a programming language which looks like Lojban.
18:05:11 <ehird> AnMaster: You can't get it precis
18:05:18 <ehird> AnMaster: you can make a proglang which _is_ lojban
18:05:19 <ehird> it has a yacc parser
18:05:27 <ehird> which is the official grammar
18:05:35 <ehird> http://www.lojban.org/publications/formal-grammars/grammar.300
18:05:59 <AnMaster> ehird, can a computer actually make sense of that syntax tree you get though?
18:06:14 <ehird> AnMaster: It can't understand it like a human, obviously.
18:06:22 <ehird> [[it has selbri, which are like functions - they take a number of arguments ("places") and you can skip arguments with special words that move to different arguments]] -- me
18:06:35 <ehird> So it's quite a close fit
18:06:59 <ehird> "mee cooskoo lohhoo meeheh Eleaht chrd lehhoo"
18:06:59 <ehird> Where ch is like in Bach.
18:07:01 <ehird> -- me on pronounciation of mi cusku lo'u mi'e .Eli,at. xrd. le'u
18:07:18 <AnMaster> ehird, lets say you tell it in lojban "go ahead", but wouldn't there be many different ways to express that? In English there certainly are, some depending on context.
18:07:30 <ehird> AnMaster: There's always multiple ways to express something.
18:07:37 <ehird> It's impossible to restrict that.
18:08:02 <ehird> AnMaster: The language is unambiguous -- but that doesn't mean what you say in it is.
18:08:08 <AnMaster> "sure", "go ahead", "okay" could all mean the same thing to a human (depending on context, in certain contexts they would be rather different)
18:08:53 <AnMaster> I admit I don't know lojban, so maybe it has some way to handle this
18:09:09 <ehird> It's still tuned for human expression.
18:09:48 <AnMaster> so we are still far from the computer on Enterprise then :/
18:10:12 <ehird> "One of the his first non-programming works—the GNU Manifesto—was a certifiable snore-fest, later adopted by a commercial enterprise, repackaged, and sold on the industrial pharmaceutical market as a sedative for invasive surgery. "
18:10:14 <ehird> - http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Stallman
18:10:59 <AnMaster> ehird, btw, you said x was like ch in bach above, so "Hird" is pronounced like "chird"??
18:11:14 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it's pronounced like herd, but lojban has no equivalent sound.
18:11:17 <ehird> ch is as close as you can get.
18:11:38 <ehird> lament: you just reached a new low in coherency
18:12:26 <AnMaster> ehird, hm.. it made kind of sense in a meta-sense kind of non-sense way
18:12:42 <AnMaster> kind of like the description for the last sqrt(-garfield)
18:12:54 <ehird> There should be free pacemaker software like corebios
18:13:00 <ehird> Become an early adopter!
18:13:00 <AnMaster> same sort of meta-sense I mean
18:13:09 <ehird> And, er, a "late" adopter.
18:13:19 <AnMaster> ehird, to get back to x: is there a strict connection between spelling and pronouncing then in lojban?
18:13:31 <AnMaster> because I think that is why we still don't use such languages
18:13:33 <ehird> all letters are pronounced in exactly one way
18:13:48 <AnMaster> but it makes the language a bit boring kind of
18:14:15 <AnMaster> you need some quirks to make it feel like a real language. Otherwise it just feels very artificial
18:14:40 <ehird> oh god, I read 'colorforth.com update. SeaForth is dead. Chuck Moore is back.'
18:14:44 <ehird> as 'Chuck Moore is dead'
18:14:47 <ehird> and I died a little insid
18:14:52 <ehird> http://colorforth.com/
18:15:00 <AnMaster> I read "chuck moore" as "chuck norris"
18:15:09 <ehird> chuck norris codes forth with his bible
18:15:23 <ehird> i lov ehow he looks like he was just in a fight in this pic: http://colorforth.com/chuck.jpg
18:15:36 <AnMaster> but the name sounds interesting
18:15:48 <ehird> 4 dimensional forth
18:15:53 <AnMaster> ehird, you could have touchforth too...
18:15:58 <ehird> which uses sound as the fourth d
18:16:03 <ehird> to represent it that is
18:16:49 <AnMaster> with the u added it makes sense indeed
18:17:26 <AnMaster> ehird, how would you encode it in sound? And how would you sync the ASCII file with this signal?
18:17:45 <ehird> AnMaster: ask oklopol_, he was writing a 4d pong where fourth d = sound
18:17:57 <AnMaster> trefunge uses form feed to increment the z dimension...
18:18:54 <AnMaster> oklopol_, this 4D-with-sound pong sounds interesting. Can you elaborate on what this wound mean in practise?
18:19:25 <ehird> AnMaster: like ... early mid 2008?
18:19:38 <lament> how about 8D pong, with sound and taste
18:20:01 <ehird> all of your senses. psychics only
18:21:55 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc you said your computer was almost silent?
18:22:04 <ehird> AnMaster: generally, yes
18:22:15 <ehird> probably not for you and your mega ears
18:22:47 <AnMaster> ehird, at what sort of usage does it's fans turn on?
18:23:04 <AnMaster> I mean, compiling a small app? Compiling a large app? 3D games?
18:23:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Compiling generally makes the fans run a lil', but not too noticable.
18:23:34 <ehird> It's hard to get the fans to go high -- I've only had them on full when it measured wrong and put them on full blast by mistake.
18:23:40 <Deewiant> ehird: Those two Radeon X2s will make it sound like a space rocket
18:23:48 <ehird> Deewiant: What, all the time?
18:23:54 <ehird> Also, I'm talking about my current rig
18:24:00 <AnMaster> ehird, the best way would be to have the computer in one room then a terminal in a separate room
18:24:12 <ehird> Deewiant: o_O Why?
18:24:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Lisp Machines did that.
18:24:31 <Deewiant> They're not exactly known as very quiet cards. :-P
18:24:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I have seen some laptops that are silent mostly when you use them, but run fan at full speed when you go compiling or run a simulation or such, and even with the fans on it runs very hot then..
18:25:02 <ehird> Deewiant: What actually makes the noise? I'm not a gfx-card-knowledgable kind of person.
18:25:22 <ehird> But that sounds sucky, if they're gonna be loud all the time I'll have to ditch them :-(
18:25:28 <AnMaster> an apple macbook (non-pro) did this to me about half a year ago, not the last model or such even back then...
18:26:00 <ehird> Deewiant: And why does it need to run these fans all the time?
18:26:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also seeking harddrives (some models)
18:26:04 <Deewiant> ehird: It runs at around 60 degrees when idle, with the fans on.
18:26:12 <ehird> Deewiant: what the fuck.
18:26:21 <ehird> Do you mean f or c
18:26:38 <Deewiant> Or maybe I'm confusing the number with power usage in watts, actually
18:26:56 <AnMaster> ehird, my GPU came in two editions, one with fan and one without, sadly the one without was out of stock and I needed a replacement the same day (my old geforce 3 had finally given up. R.I.P.)
18:27:02 <Deewiant> And for the record I never use Fahrenheit.
18:27:30 <ehird> 60c is just ridiculous
18:27:32 <Deewiant> ehird: No, I was right, at least one review says 58 degrees when idle (22 db)
18:27:42 <ehird> Deewiant: wait, 22 db? Am I fucking hearing you right?
18:27:46 <ehird> That's fucking ridiculous.
18:27:47 <AnMaster> geforce 7600 btw, with the more extreme cards I assume it would be hard to make a fan-less edition
18:28:07 <AnMaster> ehird, how hot is the CPU in your mac btw?
18:28:08 <ehird> Deewiant: I should just buy a fan and put it on full right next to my ears.
18:28:16 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't know I've never touched it :-P
18:28:19 <Deewiant> ehird: Oh, and btw. This wasn't an X2.
18:28:24 <ehird> Deewiant: what was it
18:28:32 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc macs have sensors, I even remember seeing some app on OS X showing it in a nice way
18:28:47 <AnMaster> it worked when I tried it on that macbook at least...
18:28:48 <Deewiant> ehird: The X2s will be worse, of course. Don't know by how much, though.
18:28:49 <ehird> Deewiant: so why do people buy these things...
18:29:08 <Deewiant> ehird: People who buy the latest and greatest graphics cards aren't generally looking for silent systems :-P
18:29:32 <ehird> Deewiant: the lowest end this comes with is a 512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3
18:29:32 <AnMaster> ehird, speed, price, low noise level, choose two.
18:29:34 <Deewiant> I'm satisfied with the quietness of mine
18:29:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Speed & low noise level. What's the price? :-)
18:30:04 <Deewiant> My current machine makes less than half the noise of the previous one :-P
18:30:23 <Deewiant> I did rip out the stock HD 4870 cooler though
18:31:14 <ehird> Deewiant: Can you watercool these things? ;-)
18:31:27 <ehird> I am so not going to try that.
18:31:29 <Deewiant> I've never messed with non-air-cooling
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18:31:41 <AnMaster> ehird, cost of whatever two rooms cost around where you live + one of those fancy terminal extender things from blackbox (seen in ads, with happy customers talking about how much better it is not having to have dust collecting computers in clean rooms or whatever, and "contact for price") + noisy computer + monitor + keyboard + mouse
18:32:24 <AnMaster> a CD drive at the same place as the terminal might be useful too, in case you are lazy it would be a requirement even
18:32:36 <AnMaster> (depending on how often you use CDs)
18:33:19 <Deewiant> Just use a pneumatic tube system to transport the CD to the drive
18:33:29 <ehird> Deewiant: how loud would a '512 MB ATI Radeon 4550 PCI-Express x16 GDDR3' be
18:33:37 <Deewiant> ehird: Beats me, google for reviews
18:33:39 <AnMaster> ehird, something like that listed on http://www.blackbox.com/Store/Results.aspx/KVM/n-4294964384/p-0 maybe
18:33:59 <Deewiant> ehird: I only know about stuff I've considered buying :-P
18:34:06 <AnMaster> price doesn't seem _too_ bad in fact..
18:34:38 <ehird> Deewiant: Wish you hadn't told me this, now I'm out of ideas :D
18:35:00 <AnMaster> ehird, idea: enormous external headsink. Imagine this: an external 3 kg headsink on the top of the computer case...
18:35:24 <ehird> I wonder why watercooling never comes standard
18:35:25 <Deewiant> ehird: Well, I decided early on that I'd get approximately the best gfx card
18:35:37 <Deewiant> So I only really looked at the 4870 and the GeForce GTX 260/280
18:35:50 <AnMaster> ehird, because when things go bad they go really bad. That may be why water cooling is not very popular.
18:35:53 <Deewiant> And the former was 100€ or so cheaper so it was an easy decision :-P
18:36:03 <ehird> Deewiant: Yar, it's just that one airplane-noised computer was enough for a lifetime for me.
18:36:35 <Deewiant> ehird: I've had a lot of those, I think my current one is simultaneously the quietest and most powerful machine I've ever had, by far :-)
18:36:43 <AnMaster> I mean a failed fan is much less of a problem, computer will detect that it is overheating and then shut itself off at some point. A lot of modern computers do that at least.
18:36:59 <ehird> Deewiant: Got a microphone with good enough quality to give an accurate picture of the loudness? :P
18:37:12 <Deewiant> ehird: No microphone at all, sorry
18:37:29 <ehird> Deep lake water cooling uses cold water pumped from the bottom of a lake as a heat sink for climate control systems^W^W^Wcomputers.
18:37:30 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_lake_water_cooling
18:38:22 <AnMaster> ehird, interesting, but is it used for computers? yet?
18:38:31 <Deewiant> ehird: I can't hear it at all when I've got earphones+music on, unless I explicitly try to listen for it
18:38:42 <ehird> Yes, well, I don't do headphones [as yesterday]
18:39:19 <ehird> Deewiant: can't think properly with them
18:39:59 <Deewiant> I tend to just turn sounds off and keep them on :-P
18:40:14 <Deewiant> If I find myself needing extra-effective thinking, that is
18:40:23 <AnMaster> I can actually hear the fans in my computer even with ear protectors (or whatever the name was). Though the ear protectors do help reduce it to a acceptable level...
18:40:57 <ehird> Bah, computers suck.
18:41:42 <Deewiant> Hmm, earphones refer specifically to earbuds, I didn't mean those
18:41:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about headphones, with no sound playing my headphones hardly reduce outside noise at all. But your does?
18:42:03 <Deewiant> Well, a bit, since they're circumaural
18:42:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, earbuds? is that before they become earflowers???
18:42:26 <Deewiant> Haha, never even realized that
18:42:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/IPod_Earbuds.JPG
18:44:30 <AnMaster> hm... when I click that link I get a message from konq saying "Tjänsten "/home/anmaster/.local/share/applications/gimp.desktop" är felaktig.", weird..
18:45:21 <AnMaster> anyway about that pic... aha, those yeah
18:45:31 <AnMaster> never heard the name "earbuds" for them before
18:45:49 <AnMaster> never heard a English name I think
18:46:15 <AnMaster> anyway, "earbuds" always fall out of my ears...
18:46:16 <Deewiant> http://www.redtower.hu/kepek/upload/2008-09/sennheiser_hd555.jpg is what I've got
18:46:23 <ehird> earbuds or earphones
18:46:29 <ehird> AnMaster: you didn't put them in deep enough
18:46:36 <ehird> if you're not getting uncomfortable ear damage they'll fall out
18:46:47 <Deewiant> I get uncomfortable ear damage and they still fall out
18:46:51 <ehird> Deewiant: I have ones pretty like that except more shit
18:47:12 <AnMaster> ehird, that explains it, I tried to not cause damage to myself I guess.
18:47:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, AKG 240 Studio are my headphones, google for them
18:47:50 <ehird> http://www.akg.com/site/products/powerslave,id,252,pid,252,nodeid,2,_language,EN.html
18:48:16 <ehird> My ears are too small for headphones
18:48:18 <Deewiant> They seem a bit small: are those circumaural or supra-aural?
18:48:27 <AnMaster> the url looks funny I'd say, but the actual headphones? no
18:48:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I would answer if I knew what "circumaural" or "supra-aural" meant...
18:49:11 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "Around ear" or "on top of ear"
18:49:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, diameter for the round areas is approx. 10 cm
18:49:35 <Deewiant> I.e. does your entire ear fit inside them
18:50:21 <Deewiant> I guess that'd make them circumaural
18:50:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is outer diameter of the padded area. inner diameter is ~6.5 cm
18:51:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway they are comfortable and the sound is high quality, which is what I care about
18:52:19 <AnMaster> and it seems to fit just around my ear
18:52:33 <Judofyr> I'm quite satisfied with Grado Labs SR60
18:54:39 <AnMaster> btw, anyone remember that google shell thingy?
18:57:46 <AnMaster> ehird, remember that google shell thingy?
19:01:25 <AnMaster> not a very good implementation indeed
19:01:32 <AnMaster> cd semantics is broken for example
19:02:41 <ehird> Why can't I just have speed, power and quietness :-P
19:02:45 <ehird> AND A FREAKING PONY.
19:18:59 <ehird> "Currently Mausezahn is only available for Linux platforms. Please do NOT PORT Mausezahn to Windows!"
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19:30:45 <AnMaster> is there any way to pass a parameter list as a argument to a macro? example: I want a macro to declare a prototype (lets not discuss why right now), and I want to do something like #define MAKEPROTO(funcname, rettype, arguments) rettype someprefix ## funcname (arguments)
19:31:05 <AnMaster> ais523, this sounds like something you may know?
19:31:57 <ais523> there's a __VA_ARGS__ keyword
19:32:02 <AnMaster> ais523, ah nice, yes I'm doing C99 atm in fact (and yes I still have a reason to do prototypes in a strange way)
19:32:03 <ais523> actually, I'm not sure about those trailing underscores
19:32:23 <ais523> there's a gcc extension, ,##__VA_ARGS__
19:32:39 <ais523> which removes the comma immediately before the variable arg list if there are no variable arguments
19:33:10 <ais523> the traditional C89 trick, by the way, is to use an extra pair of parens
19:33:22 <ais523> #define MAKEPROTO(funcname, rettype, arguments) rettype someprefix ## funcname arguments
19:33:31 <ais523> and always enclose the arguments in a second pair of parens when passing them to the macro
19:33:43 <ais523> as in MAKEPROTO(main, int, (int argc, char** argv))
19:33:56 <AnMaster> as for why: If it was C++ this would have been templates...
19:34:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'll let you figure that out yourself...
19:43:33 <AnMaster> #define CF_MEMPOOL_FUNCPROT(m_rettype, m_funcname, m_args, m_attrs) \
19:43:33 <AnMaster> m_attrs m_rettype cf_mempool_ ## CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT ## m_funcname m_args
19:43:40 <AnMaster> why doesn't it expand CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT I wonder...
19:43:48 <AnMaster> yes it is defined before calling the macro
19:43:54 <AnMaster> though after the macro was defined
19:44:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how is that relevant?
19:44:09 <AnMaster> #define CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT fspace
19:44:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I mean they're not expanded recursively
19:44:43 <Deewiant> The contents of the macro aren't rechecked to see if they contain another macro
19:44:47 <AnMaster> #define CF_MEMPOOL_FUNCPROT(m_rettype, m_funcname, m_args, m_attrs) \
19:44:47 <AnMaster> m_attrs m_rettype cf_mempool_ ## CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT ## m_funcname m_args
19:44:48 <AnMaster> #define CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT fspace
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19:44:59 <AnMaster> CF_MEMPOOL_FUNCPROT(bool, setup, (void), FUNGE_ATTR_FAST)
19:49:03 <ehird> Deewiant: no, they are
19:49:13 <ehird> cf_mempool_CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANTm_funcnam
19:49:18 <ehird> which isn't a defined macro name
19:49:28 <ehird> Deewiant: of course
19:49:31 <ehird> that's why you can call a macro in a macro
19:51:03 <Deewiant> I thought the expansion was done at #define time which'd have been why define FOO BAR and BAR FOO doesn't loop infinitely
19:52:18 <ehird> I think there's recursion detection
19:52:26 <ais523> it gets even more complex when ## is involved
19:52:33 <ais523> ## has some weird rules with respect to macros
19:52:50 <Deewiant> Oh noes, Home of the Underdogs is down
19:54:14 <AnMaster> ok so why does it turn into cf_mempool_CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANTm_funcnam
19:54:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Because that's how ## works.
19:54:34 <ais523> Deewiant: pass ing CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT as an argument to that macro
19:55:14 <ais523> the problem is that the ## is happening before the #define expansion
19:55:59 <ais523> AnMaster: it helps to have the standard in front of you: if you search for n1124.pdf, you'll get one of the drafts proposed as an expansion to C99
19:56:08 <ais523> which contains all the C99 stuff you need to care about
19:56:24 <ais523> the drafts are available for free even though the standard itself isn't
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19:56:42 <AnMaster> ais523, I have C99:TC3 (that is C99 + proposed bug fixes iirc)
19:58:18 <AnMaster> need to pass it to the top macro even it seems
19:59:19 <AnMaster> (I was using another macro calling the first one to define the various types, then calling that macro several times for the different variants
20:02:09 <AnMaster> error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘*’ token
20:09:04 <AnMaster> ais523, how mad would you say that including an internal header twice but with different defines to create two different implementations is?
20:09:32 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's mad or not, I know I've done it lots of times but I think I'm mad too
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20:10:38 <ais523> carchive works using a program that recursively includes itself with different defines
20:11:40 <ais523> it's basically a program that inputs a set of files
20:11:47 <ais523> and creates a C program that reconstructs them
20:12:04 <ais523> it's a self-extracting archive program, just in portable C rather than as a Windows .exe
20:12:14 <ais523> I wrote it a while back, I've never used it
20:13:50 <ais523> I was planning to use it to distribute C-INTERCAL
20:14:00 <ais523> but pax is better for that, and besides carchive doesn't handle directories
20:18:24 <oklopol_> <AnMaster> oklopol_, this 4D-with-sound pong sounds interesting. Can you elaborate on what this wound mean in practise? <<< basically curveball, but also a fourth dimension in color and sound.
20:19:18 <AnMaster> oklopol_, how would the sounds bit work (from a user perspective)?
20:19:43 <oklopol_> so usually you'd try to stay in the same position as the ball until it turns your color and the sound has the correct pitch
20:19:48 <AnMaster> would I sing to control the position of the paddle in the 4th dimension or what?
20:21:31 <AnMaster> oklopol_, what do you mean same position as the ball? And what is "curveball"? When I google I get stuff related to baseball hm.
20:21:43 <Deewiant> http://www.google.com/search?q=curveball
20:21:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so it is the baseball one then?
20:21:58 <Deewiant> Top one is http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/curveball
20:22:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not here. Here top one is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curveball
20:22:15 <oklopol_> curveball is a flash game, and same position means you'd stay in the same 3d coords as the ball, in the cube
20:22:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also I don't have flash as you know
20:22:28 <oklopol_> of course, then there's 4d rotation of the cube....
20:22:33 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Actually I didn't know
20:22:51 <Deewiant> Or maybe I did but I didn't consider it important enough to remember
20:23:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, meh, ehird claims I mentioned it millions of times before every time I mention it.
20:23:12 <oklopol_> you can check out the tesseract rotation animations on wikipedia
20:23:14 <AnMaster> so I thought "lets avoid that for once"
20:24:46 <oklopol_> is not having flash an ideology issue, or why should people assume you're never going to take the 3 minutes it takes to install it?
20:25:57 <ais523> oklopol_: partly ideology, partly security (it's the biggest cross-platform security hole in existence), and often people have a system it doesn't work on
20:26:16 <ais523> also, not having Flash is really useful, do you have any idea how annoying Flash is?
20:26:34 <oklopol_> also i asked a prof if they'd organize an exam on schaum's mathematical handbook, and they were like all philosophical "hmm interesting idea, if done right... but no, of course not"
20:28:30 <oklopol_> i consider flash the cornerstone of internet, internet is mostly used to browse for flash content, then using it.
20:29:49 <oklopol_> i guess i'd have to be a *nix user to know why it's annoying
20:30:07 <oklopol_> (joke is i am, this is my ubu machine)
20:31:39 <oklopol_> maybe i should stop my mindless rambling and read about vector spaces
20:32:24 <AnMaster> cfunge_mempool_priv.h:90: warning: no previous prototype for ‘cf_mempool_CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT_setup’
20:32:32 <AnMaster> #define CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT fspace
20:32:33 <AnMaster> #include "cfunge_mempool_priv.h"
20:32:49 <AnMaster> then I'm calling a macro like:
20:32:51 <oklopol_> (and drink the rest of my beers)
20:32:54 <AnMaster> bool CF_MEMPOOL_FUNC(setup, CF_MEMPOOL_VARIANT) (void)
20:33:08 <ais523> AnMaster: you need two layers of indirection
20:33:10 <AnMaster> #define CF_MEMPOOL_FUNC(m_funcname, m_variant) \
20:33:10 <AnMaster> cf_mempool_ ## m_variant ## _ ## m_funcname
20:33:28 <ais523> you want #define CF_MEMPOOL_FUNC(m_funcname, m_variant) CF_MEMPOOL_FUNC1(m_funcname, m_variant)
20:33:36 <ais523> and put the new value in FUNC1
20:33:48 <oklopol_> is it alcoholism when you can't finish your beers and therefor need to drink for multiple weekends on end?
20:33:54 <ais523> oklopol_: I don't know
20:34:34 <oklopol_> well you can generalize that and answer for another activity
20:34:48 <ais523> AnMaster: weirdness with ## and macros
20:35:13 <AnMaster> I thought the double macro thing was needed for # only
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21:05:47 <AnMaster> ais523, can't you use macros inside typedefs?
21:05:58 <AnMaster> typedef struct CF_GHT_STRUCT(CF_GHT_VAR, hash_key) {
21:05:58 <AnMaster> CF_GHT_KEY p_key; /**< The key. */
21:05:58 <AnMaster> } CF_GHT_NAME(CF_GHT_VAR, hash_key_t);
21:06:06 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/hotcold/lib/libghthash_fspace/ght_hash_table_priv.h(5): error: expected a ")"
21:06:06 <AnMaster> typedef struct CF_GHT_STRUCT(CF_GHT_VAR, hash_key) {
21:06:15 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/hotcold/lib/libghthash_fspace/ght_hash_table_priv.h:5: error: expected ‘)’ before ‘,’ token
21:06:53 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:06:59 <ais523> AnMaster: typedefs are compile-time, macros are preprocess-time, they don't interact
21:07:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not yet, because for this file I need to pass lots of -I and so on, will do that next
21:07:50 <AnMaster> typedef struct CF_LIBGHT_NAME_INTERN(s_, fspace, hash_key) {
21:07:50 <AnMaster> } CF_LIBGHT_NAME_INTERN(ght_, fspace, hash_key_t);
21:07:58 <AnMaster> that is the preprocessed result
21:09:03 <AnMaster> /home/arvid/src/cfunge/hotcold/lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_functions_priv.h:97: warning: type defaults to ‘int’ in declaration of ‘ght_hash_key_t’
21:09:08 <AnMaster> that line is inside a comment...
21:10:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well probably, the actual error was 5 lines away
21:15:13 <ehird> so who wants to know how I fixed synta
21:16:22 <AnMaster> what is "syntax" in this case? The name of some language or what?
21:23:24 -!- Mony has changed nick to Guest94576.
21:24:51 <ais523> haha: http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/04/first-sale-president-obama-and-queen-england
21:24:57 -!- Guest94576 has changed nick to M0ny.
21:25:09 <ais523> it seems President Obama gave an iPod with music on to the Queen of England
21:25:16 <ais523> and nobody's entirely sure if that's legal or not
21:25:24 <ais523> due to copyright law being so broken
21:26:11 <ais523> well, all that's been deduced so far is that the Queen didn't break UK law as a result, because she's the Queen and can do what she wants
21:27:05 <Deewiant> I don't quite like the idea of a legal system where that 'because' always applies but in this case I'm amused
21:27:18 <oklopol_> anyone here an expert on vector spaces or should i just highlight oerjan
21:27:34 <Deewiant> Start with your question and then highlight oerjan
21:27:45 <Deewiant> Say, if nobody answers within a few minutes
21:27:53 <ais523> Deewiant: the ability of the Queen to do whatever she wants has never been repealed
21:27:59 <Sgeo> oklopol_, you already highlighted oerjan, except that he's not here
21:28:01 <Deewiant> And also, oerjan doesn't seem to be here, so you're screwed anyway
21:28:02 <ais523> although she can't introduce new laws, just reject the ones Parliament came up with
21:28:44 <oklopol_> was just wondering could there be an infinite vector space for which there is no linearly independent subset which generates the space
21:29:15 <oklopol_> it's just proved for finite vector spaces that there's always such a set
21:29:27 <Deewiant> But I guess with the AoC anything can happen ;-P
21:30:45 <oklopol_> well yes intuition says no, i just don't feel like proving it myself so i was hoping for a shortcut
21:31:00 <oklopol_> probably just notational convenience it's only proved for finites
21:31:35 <oklopol_> "generation" means linear combinations of *finite* subsets at a time
21:32:23 <oklopol_> so if there are linearly dependent vectors used to generate a vector in the space, then you could just use the other vectors they are linearly dependent with
21:32:48 <Deewiant> With an infinite number of combinations... I don't see why generation would be impossible
21:33:51 <oklopol_> this is about a *maximal* generating subset
21:35:01 <ehird> 21:27 ais523: Deewiant: the ability of the Queen to do whatever she wants has never been repealed
21:35:09 <ehird> I'm going to become queen then kill everyone.
21:35:20 <ais523> ehird: htf are you going to become Queen?
21:35:43 <ehird> I just need a time machine
21:35:49 <ehird> and a serial cable connected to reality
21:36:02 <ais523> having a time machine is sufficient to be able to do anything anyway, you don't have to be the Queen as well
21:36:05 <Deewiant> I suggest something with more bandwidth
21:36:20 <Deewiant> Rewriting reality over a serial cable is likely to take a long time
21:36:25 <Deewiant> But I guess that's why you need the time machine
21:36:43 <ehird> ais523: er, are you sure? I mean, you can go and change everything by going back a few million years
21:36:48 <ehird> but can you make subtle changes just because you're there?
21:36:53 <AnMaster> <ais523> having a time machine is sufficient to be able to do anything anyway, you don't have to be the Queen as well <-- only if you have the Ultimate Edition of it.
21:36:56 <ehird> I don't think that's a given
21:37:25 <Deewiant> Well, there's not much sense in talking about time machines unless you've defined the rules under which they operate
21:37:37 <Deewiant> Given that in the real world, there are no such rules since they don't operate. :-P
21:37:40 <oklopol_> or even if you've defined the rules
21:37:59 <ehird> Deewiant: time travel's been proven to be impossible?
21:38:50 <Deewiant> ehird: Assumed impossible until proven possible.
21:38:53 <AnMaster> ehird, "<Deewiant> That's a matter of opinion."
21:39:25 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, well, that's a rather ridiculous view to take, it's not like there's no viable theories under which time travel is possible
21:39:29 <ehird> "(the UK, after all, lacks a fair use doctrine)" o_O
21:40:37 <oklopol_> there are no viable theories under which time travel is possible.
21:40:48 <ehird> Deewiant: It should be noted that I'm talking shit.
21:40:59 <ehird> You should know that I do that all the time by now.
21:41:22 <oklopol_> suddenly i decide to believe you
21:41:30 <ehird> [yeah I'm the first poo that can talk isn't that amazing]
21:41:42 <Deewiant> Next time you say something interesting, I'll tell you you're full of shit and you can't refute me.
21:42:19 <ehird> Deewiant: are _you_ an instance of feces that can audibly communicate? no? then shut up.
21:42:33 <Deewiant> What's an 'instance of faeces'
21:42:52 <oklopol_> according to south park the first talking poo was bono
21:42:58 <ehird> If you want to be all hoi polloi about it, Deewiant, sure.
21:43:26 <Deewiant> ehird: Ah, a sophisticated piece of shit.
21:44:17 <ehird> In December 1982, an 8-year-old boy, Jeffrey R. Yee, supposedly received a letter from U.S. President Ronald Reagan congratulating him on a worldwide record of 6,131,940 points, a score only possible if the player has passed the Split-Screen Level.[16] Whether or not this event happened as described has remained in heated debate among video-game circles since its supposed occurrence. In September 1983, Walter Day, chief scorekeeper at Twin Galaxies, took
21:44:20 <ehird> the US National Video Game Team on a tour of the East Coast to visit video game players who claimed they could get through the Split-Screen. No video game player could demonstrate this ability. In 1999, Billy Mitchell offered $100,000 to anyone who could provably pass through the Split-Screen Level before January 1, 2000; the prize went unclaimed.[16]
21:44:24 <ehird> ↑ why don't they just make an ai to play it
21:44:57 <ais523> and what's the split-screen level?
21:45:00 <Sgeo> Is there seriously a special "Split-Screen" level?
21:45:06 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Split_Screen_in_Pac_Man.gif
21:45:09 <Deewiant> It happens when the level counter rolls over
21:45:13 <ehird> land of corrupted memory
21:45:20 <ehird> "The 256th split-screen level can not be completed because of a software bug. "
21:45:21 <ais523> oh, so it wasn't deliberate?
21:45:43 <ehird> Pac-Man technically has no ending—as long as the player keeps at least one life, they should be able to continue playing indefinitely. However, because of a bug in the routine that draws the fruit, the right side of the 256th level becomes a garbled mess of text and symbols, rendering the level impossible to pass by legitimate means. Normally, no more than seven fruits are displayed at any one time, but when the internal level counter (stored in a sing
21:45:46 <ehird> le byte) reaches 255, the subroutine erroneously causes this value to "roll over" to zero before drawing the fruit. This causes the routine to attempt to draw 256 fruits, which corrupts the bottom of the screen and the whole right half of the maze with seemingly random symbols.[14]
21:45:53 <ehird> I want two hundred and fifty six fruits.
21:46:09 <ehird> "as well as allowing players to see what would happen if the 256th level is cleared (the game loops back to the first level, causing fruits and intermissions to display as before, but with the ghosts retaining their higher speed and invulnerability to power pellets from the later stages)"
21:46:43 <ehird> "Despite claims that someone with enough knowledge of the maze pattern could play through the level, it is technically impossible to complete since the graphical corruption eliminates most of the dots on the right half of the maze. A few edible dots are scattered in the corrupted area, and these dots reset when the player loses a life (unlike in the uncorrupted areas), but these are insufficient to complete the level"
21:46:45 <ehird> god, why is this so lame
21:46:56 <ehird> I was hoping for something like that memory-corruption tron thing
21:46:59 <Deewiant> Bugs aren't usually particularly exciting
21:47:24 <ehird> someone link to that tron thing, ais523?
21:48:26 <ehird> ais523: yes you do, it was that thing on an old console where they made a lightcycle game and the AI shot the wall
21:48:31 <ais523> I was hoping the split screen would be something like two pacman games with one set of controls
21:48:34 <ehird> and started shooting corrupted memory
21:48:48 <ehird> >_< You said it was great when I linked it ages ago
21:48:49 <ais523> I never knew, stop trying to claim I knew something when I didn't
21:49:17 <ehird> You did know you've just forgotten because when I find the links I'll prove it via the logs :-P
21:50:57 <ais523> ok, possibly the stupidest image on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Win3x_Black_Screen_of_Death.gif
21:51:18 <Deewiant> "Screenshot in Virtual PC." :-)
21:51:38 <ais523> not only that, it's an /animated/ screenshot
21:51:41 <fizzie> Even a gif animation, yes.
21:51:42 <ais523> notice the blinking cursor?
21:51:51 <ais523> I'm not even sure an animated screenshot makes sense
21:54:28 <Deewiant> If it weren't for that, it'd be truly pointless
21:55:18 <oklopol_> if that's not art then *i'm* not art.
21:56:50 <ehird> i'm going to play frogger now
21:57:27 <oklopol_> also turns out it's a proof in algebra II that infinite spaces always have an independent basis too
22:00:23 <oklopol_> i'm not gonna get to "algebra" in years
22:05:33 * kerlo realizes that the number 13 has magical being-close-to-100-when-multiplied-by-8 powers
22:07:23 <ehird> anagolf strips whitespace
22:07:27 <ehird> FireFly: so wutz the code?
22:07:29 <kerlo> I don't like non-ASCII characters all that much.
22:07:47 <FireFly> Well, are you supposed to print \n or not?
22:07:56 <fizzie> One of our automagical-checkery programming homeworks was "do matrix inversion in C++", and the results-checker checked for exact match, so you had to perform all the operations in exactly the right order, to get the floating-point inaccuracies done the same way.
22:07:58 <ehird> FireFly: it doesnt matter
22:08:16 <FireFly> Then my Befunge should be correct
22:08:46 <ehird> fizzie: how is that short
22:09:06 <FireFly> I couln't think of anything shorter
22:09:28 <ehird> 22:08 FireFly: "%hpvs{$0sppiL"v
22:09:29 <ehird> 22:08 FireFly: <<<<<<,-4_@#:<<<
22:09:33 <ehird> he's trying to golf hello world
22:10:00 <FireFly> Without the letters "H", "e" etc. in the source
22:10:13 <FireFly> "Helloworldless Hello world"
22:10:27 <ehird> just do 1+ before outpu
22:10:32 <ehird> and subtract one from the chars
22:10:48 <fizzie> 4- is just as good as 1+.
22:11:09 <FireFly> Eg. you get chars that are forbitten
22:11:35 <oklopol_> err aren't there 16 numbers in befunge
22:12:07 <oklopol_> i have a hunch one of them doesn't have the illegal chars
22:12:11 <ais523> oklopol_: e and d are numbers in hello world
22:12:19 <fizzie> Yes, well, if that 4- in the code works, I don't see why it matters which one you pick.
22:12:21 <ehird> "e and d are numbers"
22:12:24 <ais523> so you only have 14 working numbers
22:12:35 <ais523> ehird: we're talking about Befunge-98
22:12:48 <ais523> so yes, e and d are indeed numbers
22:12:49 <ehird> this is in a string
22:13:00 <ais523> ehird: the aim's to write a helloworldless hello world
22:13:01 <Deewiant> Characters are also numbers FWIW
22:13:15 <oklopol_> fizzie: oh right didn't even read the source, assumed ehird readit :P
22:13:17 <fizzie> ehird: And you can't put "d+" in code either, since, you know, it's a d.
22:13:18 <ehird> But the letters e and d are not numbers :P
22:13:55 <oklopol_> kinda like 5 and 2 aren't numbers?
22:14:21 <fizzie> e is approximately 2.718281828.
22:14:34 <ais523> e (hex) = 14 (decimal)
22:14:59 <fizzie> oklopol_: Why are you telling me this? I'm not teaching you hex.
22:15:04 <ais523> apparently apart from ehird
22:15:14 <oklopol_> fizzie: did we make the same joke?
22:15:15 <ehird> but you said e in a string
22:15:19 <ehird> it's a letter there
22:15:33 <oklopol_> or did you just not get it was making one
22:15:57 <fizzie> oklopol_: I thought you might, but that's the problem with randomness: you can never be sure.
22:16:30 <FireFly> So, IMO my code should validate
22:16:32 <oklopol_> fizzie: you can indeed never be sure; doesn't mean you don't have to guess correctly
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22:42:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw exact bounds will be a compile time option for cfunge
22:42:55 <ais523> oh, so you can have incorrect y output but faster speed?
22:43:44 <AnMaster> ais523, most programs doesn't depend on the bounds shrinking when space is written
22:44:02 <AnMaster> and even though it isn't complete yet it already slows down execution...
22:44:29 <AnMaster> that is, with old bounds that never shrink
22:44:42 <AnMaster> with partly implemented exact bounds: real 0m0.046s
22:45:40 <AnMaster> (with an initial run before to reduce "not in memory cache"-effect)
22:46:17 <AnMaster> that is also redirecting output to /dev/null to reduce factors such as terminal
22:46:25 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
22:47:15 <AnMaster> (output to terminal adds about 0.020 in fully buffered mode, and 0.050 in the default line buffered mode)
22:49:35 <ais523> yay, Google INTERCAL style guide back up
22:49:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I have a local copy from google cache saved here
22:49:56 <ais523> and same place as before
22:50:11 <ais523> http://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html
22:50:30 <ais523> I grabbed a copy from the live.com cache, it wasn't in the Google or Yahoo caches for some reason when I checked
22:50:32 <AnMaster> http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/ <-- ?
22:50:44 <ais523> AnMaster: they seem to be the same website
22:51:02 <ais523> the second one's just the one that mentions INTERCAL whenever you ask it a question
22:52:00 <AnMaster> "CADIE is getting tired of your simple requests. Please request something more challenging."
22:52:07 <ais523> well, not always, just usually
22:52:25 <ais523> incidentally, much of that INTERCAL style guide is in fact very sane
22:52:31 <ais523> most of the decisions are justified well
22:52:37 <AnMaster> "The bit-shifting code necessary for your request would actually be easier to do in INTERCAL. Have you considered changing languages?"
22:52:57 <ais523> wow, the person who wrote that actualy knew enough INTERCAL to make that statement
22:53:13 <ais523> bit-shifting is one of the only things which is actually occasionally easier in INTERCAL
22:53:17 <AnMaster> ais523, some responses contain embedded intercal even
22:53:33 <ais523> paste it anyway, pastebin if necessary
22:54:12 <AnMaster> http://rafb.net/p/tNy0hj51.html
22:54:12 <ais523> DO :3 <- '"'"'"'".1$':1~#32768'"~"#1109$#1"'$':1~#128'"~#2735'$':1~"#546$#0"'"~"#43679"'$':1~"#1365$#0"'"~"#1023$#63"'$'"'"'".1$#0"~#34959'$':1~"#0$#1170"'"~#11007'$':1~"#0$#2925"'"~"#2005$#255"'
22:54:22 <AnMaster> ais523, that's yet another one
22:54:28 <AnMaster> what was the message connected to it?
22:54:41 <ais523> "JavaScript is obsolete and inefficient. CADIE thinks you should use INTERCAL.", and you can guess the language
22:54:49 <AnMaster> "Seriously, get back to work." <-- haha
22:54:54 <ais523> it isn't yet another, that one's in your paste
22:55:15 <ais523> anyway, that big expression, let me run it through C-INTERCAL's expression explainer
22:55:21 <ais523> thanks to the work by Joris, it's quite good now
22:55:29 <AnMaster> <form id="cse" action="http://www.google.com/cse" accept-charset="utf-8" class="gsc-search-box" onsubmit="executeGSearch(document.getElementById('gsearchInput').value); return false;">
22:56:17 <ais523> C1: Expression is (((((((((.1 $ (! (! (:1 & 0x8000)))) ~ 0x202223) $ (! (! (:1 & 0x80)))) ~ 0xaaf) $ (:1 ~ 0x80808)) ~ 0xaa9f) $ (:1 ~ 0x222222)) ~ 0xaafff) $ ((((((.1 $ 0x0) ~ 0x888f) $ (:1 ~ 0x104104)) ~ 0x2aff) $ (:1 ~ 0x451451)) ~ 0x2af777))
22:56:29 <ais523> hmm... if that's the best my optimiser can do, it needs work
22:56:47 <ais523> also, it means that Google wrote that expression themselves rather than just cribbing from the manual
22:56:50 <ais523> which is always nice to know
22:56:56 <AnMaster> ais523, but page didn't reload between asking questions, and it was instant reply (which excludes ajax), so it must be javascript with embedded responses
22:57:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I guess there is someone at google that programmed in intercal for fun or so
22:57:54 <AnMaster> ais523, but it would be interesting to know who this mastermind is
22:58:05 <ais523> http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/js/cadie.js implies it's reading from a program
22:58:08 <AnMaster> ais523, and what does that expression actually do? I mean if you hand optimise it
22:58:14 <ais523> and it's almost certainly either Don Woods or Brain Raiter
22:58:20 <ais523> AnMaster: it'll take a while to hand-optimise
22:58:28 <ais523> but my guess is it's doing some sort of bitshifting
22:58:33 <AnMaster> <ais523> http://code.google.com/creative/cadie/js/cadie.js implies it's reading from a program <-- hm?
22:58:40 <ais523> *reading from a spreadsheer
22:58:49 <AnMaster> ais523, which is located where?
22:59:03 <AnMaster> oh google spreadsheet thingy? right
22:59:13 <AnMaster> I guess it pre-loads it or something
23:00:52 <ais523> see, e.g. http://spreadsheets.google.com/feeds/list/py7xyB-w6v8IDNWEywmxKJA/od6/public/basic
23:01:16 <AnMaster> ais523, bleh I had just pasted the same url in my input line in my irc client
23:01:22 <AnMaster> and saw you pasted it a few seconds before
23:01:48 <ais523> "Have you thoroughly considered the security issues with JavaScript? CADIE reminds you that all INTERCAL programs are known to be 100% secure, thanks to the language's inability to access files or other resources."
23:01:52 <ais523> someone show them CLC-INTERCAL
23:03:03 <AnMaster> messages: My favorite Python scripts start with the line<br>
23:03:17 <AnMaster> I wonder... has anyone coded that?
23:03:28 <AnMaster> "messages: CADIE is busy porting j2ee to INTERCAL, but it's taking a lot of CPU time."
23:03:35 <ais523> mportError: No module named INTERCAL
23:03:42 <ais523> so apparently I don't have it installed
23:03:54 <AnMaster> ais523, not in standard distribution of course, was just wondering if it exists at all
23:04:14 <ais523> if there is, I don't know of it
23:08:00 <ais523> hmm... http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-dev/2001-July/016406.html
23:10:10 <ais523> <Google> Do not write comments in lowercase. Lowercase in INTERCAL source code looks really weird. Just trust us on this one.
23:10:46 <AnMaster> ais523, some questions about that style guide:
23:10:54 <ais523> also, Google officially condone Atari syntax, that would lead to some holy wars if there were sufficiently many people who cared
23:11:01 <AnMaster> Setting .5 to #2/#3 instead of #1/#2
23:11:03 <ais523> that's sort of like officially favouring Emacs over vim
23:11:21 <AnMaster> ais523, where is the Atari syntax?
23:11:36 <ais523> AnMaster: Atari syntax = C-INTERCAL-style, with $ and ?
23:11:56 <ais523> Princeton syntax = CLC-INTERCAL-style, with ∀ and ¢
23:12:10 <AnMaster> ais523, so what about that .5 thing?
23:12:29 <AnMaster> and why not DO or PLEASE inside comments?
23:12:48 <ais523> anyway, the .5 thing is because INTERCAL-72's only flow control construct was computed RESUME, #2 and #3 are easier boolean values to calculate with but #1 and #2 are easier to use for flow control
23:13:10 <ais523> and no DO or PLEASE inside comments because they crash the program if you do
23:13:24 <ais523> unless you're clever and work the characters NOT in immediately afterwards, like Donald Knuth did
23:13:27 <oklopol_> heyyy ais523 i had a mathematica question
23:13:37 <ais523> AnMaster: # = decimal constant
23:13:53 <ais523> maximum of 65535, even though INTERCAL can use up to 32-bit numbers
23:14:04 <ais523> it's one of those arbitrary restrictions that exists for no obvious reason
23:14:43 <AnMaster> "Above all, be consistent. If you're editing code, take a few hours to look at the code around you and understand its style. If they always use rabbit-ears for their outermost group, you should too. If they always prefix RESTORE statements with PLEASE, you should do the same. If they have internal spaces in their expression, you should go through the file and remove them, and then look to see what oth
23:14:43 <AnMaster> er files they might have edited and fix those as well."
23:14:57 <ais523> as a personal thing, I always prefix GIVE UP with PLEASE
23:15:12 <AnMaster> ais523, heh, what about the other ones
23:15:14 <ais523> and NEXT with DO, if I need a PLEASE on the line I'll write e.g. PLEASE DO (1) NEXT so I don't drop the DO
23:15:17 <oklopol_> and if you sort a list of lists, it uses the basic lexicographical comparison
23:15:29 <AnMaster> ais523, what exactly does the DO do?
23:15:30 <ehird> http://cadiesingularity.blogspot.com/ itt: cadie commits suicide
23:15:32 <oklopol_> but {...}<{...} tries to do numeric comparison
23:15:38 <ais523> oklopol_: you may want to check the docs, it probably has options somewhere
23:15:47 <ais523> AnMaster: statement separator, like ; in C
23:15:52 <ais523> except the DO comes before the statement
23:16:11 <oklopol_> ais523: there's no "generic comparison"?
23:16:24 <ais523> oklopol_: I don't know of one
23:16:37 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeJ9Q40kIR0 ← could they have done it less morbidly?
23:16:40 <oklopol_> well i guess you don't know everything about it, just feels like you.
23:16:52 <AnMaster> ais523, right. You could do that (mostly) in C too
23:17:07 <ais523> oklopol_: I was working on the Turing machine thing, that hardly involved numbers at all
23:17:19 <ais523> besides, I'd been working too much on Thutu at the time
23:17:25 <ais523> and was writing Mathematica Thutu-style, that was fun
23:17:44 <ais523> you could put DO at the end of the line in INTERCAL as well
23:17:49 <oklopol_> ais523: i don't want numbers, the problem is exactly that mathematica treats my lists as numbers.
23:18:10 <ais523> INTERCAL's whitespace rules aren't widely really understood, I was having a discussion with sorear a while back about if you could put whitespace inside constants
23:18:19 <ais523> certainly, nobody /implements/ that, but...
23:18:35 <ais523> AnMaster: it might be helpful when sending C over Usenet
23:18:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I have actually seen erlang code written like that (in if/case blocks)
23:18:41 <ais523> which often garbles the indentation
23:18:55 <ais523> OCaml's often written like that with | rather than ;
23:19:35 <AnMaster> http://www.erlang.org/eeps/eep-0028.html
23:19:42 <ehird> ais523: You know you hate how you can't send python over irc?
23:19:55 <ais523> you can hardly send it over anything
23:19:59 <ais523> even email borks sometimes if the lines are long
23:20:09 <ehird> I never have that issue, re: email
23:20:17 <ehird> ais523: I devised a syntax that can be done in s-expressions on one line, but uses indentation for multi line
23:20:22 <ehird> special for var from to code
23:20:27 <ehird> while ($ var) < ($ to)
23:20:31 <ehird> $ var = ($ var) + 1
23:20:35 <ehird> translated to s-expr:
23:20:44 <ehird> it's short enough, who cares
23:20:46 <ais523> AnMaster: well, yes, but that's less convenient, they both are
23:21:03 <AnMaster> ehird, that looked nice though
23:21:22 <ehird> (special for var from to code (template (= loop (fun (do (= ($ var) ($ from)) (while (< ($ var) ($ to)) (do ($ code) (= ($ var) (+ ($ var) 1))))))) (loop)))
23:21:38 <ehird> ais523: so it's s-expy in the internal form, but pythony in the code
23:21:50 <AnMaster> ehird, do you have automatic translator between the two forms?
23:21:53 <AnMaster> ehird, also what about comments
23:21:58 <ais523> personally I like the Haskell solution, add { ; } if you think the indentation might get messed up
23:21:58 <ehird> AnMaster: ... no, it's a proposed syntax for a language
23:22:00 <ehird> and who the heck cares
23:22:09 <ehird> why do you always concentrate on the edge cases
23:22:21 <ais523> because the edge cases take 90% of the time
23:22:24 <ehird> ais523: Haskell code tends to edge further and further rightways, it looks unbalanced
23:22:30 <ehird> and no, it's trivial
23:22:37 <oklopol_> elephants are usually pretty edgy
23:22:39 <ais523> seriously, the project I'm writing up for University at the moment was almost all edge cases
23:22:40 <AnMaster> ehird, because I don't think worse _is_ better
23:22:41 <ehird> special # &rest args ()
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23:23:10 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm trying to present the initial idea for a new language syntax that fixes python vs s-exprs and allows for tons of self-modifying while keeping the syntax simple
23:23:15 <ehird> and all you can say is WHAT ABOUT COMMENTS???
23:23:20 <ehird> that's not worse is not better
23:23:23 <ehird> that's just ridiculous
23:23:43 <AnMaster> ehird, I like the idea. But I also wondered about it.
23:23:59 <ehird> 23:21 AnMaster: ehird, do you have automatic translator between the two forms?
23:23:59 <ehird> 23:21 AnMaster: ehird, also what about comments
23:24:06 <AnMaster> what is it with you and hating to see broken cases for your ideas?
23:24:07 <ehird> it seemed more like 'idea-death by a thousand cuts' to me, but whatever
23:24:11 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not broken
23:24:15 <ehird> 23:22 ehird: special # &rest args ()
23:24:19 <ehird> it's just trivial, boring and irrelevant
23:24:48 <AnMaster> ehird, the first was a genuine question, since you seemed to indicate it was for python over indention mangling protocols
23:25:01 <ehird> actually, I devised it as an alternative to s-exps
23:25:16 <ehird> the fact that you can make an irc-friendly version of all code is just a side effect of that
23:26:04 <AnMaster> ehird, good think it isn't haskell then ;P You would have needed some monad then
23:26:12 <ehird> ais523: btw, in that, template = quasiquote and $ = unquote
23:26:15 <ehird> if it seems familiar
23:26:27 <ehird> yeah, non-hygenic macros, too lazy to make a real system atm
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23:27:20 <AnMaster> <ais523> seriously, the project I'm writing up for University at the moment was almost all edge cases <-- hm? what is it?
23:27:32 <ehird> AnMaster: you should stalk people more.
23:27:36 <ais523> compiling imperative languages into hardware
23:27:45 <ais523> I think I've mentioned it here before
23:27:53 <fizzie> You did take a look at the I-expression SRFI, right? It's just that it supports any mix of indentation-based and S-expressions you happen to want. Although I haven't looked at either i-exprs or your syntax very closely, and am not going to right now either.
23:27:53 <ais523> really, the only case that comes up in practice is trivial
23:27:58 <ehird> AnMaster: so you know every intimate detail about them.
23:28:14 <ehird> fizzie: i-exprs are crap; mapping directly on to an existing language is a recipe for failure
23:28:16 <ais523> some of the more obscure edge cases need people to be writing third-order non-recursive functions in their simple imperative langauge to trigger them
23:28:18 <AnMaster> ais523, yes you did, but it could have been some other interesting project
23:28:22 <ehird> i started with the pythonic form and then thought about the sexp form
23:29:09 <ehird> for example, in mine, if/else is
23:29:18 <oklopol_> ais523: so you decided you need to perfect them so crazy people don't get mad?
23:29:19 <ehird> which turns into (if foo bar else baz)
23:29:35 <ais523> oklopol_: no, I'm perfecting them in an attempt to do a perfect project
23:29:54 <ais523> besides, it's a mathematically interesting problem which may lead to a paper
23:29:57 <ais523> handling all cases, that is
23:30:13 <oklopol_> ais523: i know, it's just the oerjanization process taking place.
23:30:54 <ais523> I didn't even realise you were trying to pun
23:31:03 <ais523> the sentence made sense without it, after all
23:31:26 <ehird> razy people are already mad
23:31:29 <ehird> if so that's a shit pun
23:31:39 <ehird> it just lacks the funny
23:32:25 <oklopol_> i'm not into intuitive definitions of funniness
23:32:36 <oklopol_> it was an intelligent mix of two meanings of mad
23:32:38 <ehird> http://www.erlang.org/eeps/eep-0028.html ← wow they totally ripped off python's pep process
23:33:09 <ais523> ehird: Python has Emergency Sessions?
23:33:21 <ehird> haha, megaupload replaced their crackable-by-js-neural-net captchas, and now they're unreadable to humans
23:33:25 <ehird> http://wwwq23.megaupload.com/gencap.php?27263f7e2ab352b7.gif
23:34:30 <ais523> why were people writing captcha crackers in js anyway?
23:34:44 <ehird> ais523: to make them a greasemonkey script
23:34:48 <ais523> also, that link's coming up blank for me
23:34:50 <ehird> so that you could download megaupload files without entering the captcha
23:34:57 <ehird> also, darn, just go to http://www.megaupload.com/?d=20OEDUG5
23:35:18 <ais523> and that looks /really trivial/ to crack compared to most CAPTCHAs
23:35:28 <ehird> it is trivial, which is funny
23:35:30 <ehird> but it's hard to read
23:35:35 <ehird> maybe you got a good one out of luck
23:35:43 <ais523> I get the same one every time I refresh
23:36:00 <ais523> I was wondering about that, but I don't think so
23:36:41 <ehird> "shit was SO cache"
23:39:57 <ehird> oklopol_: *algebri
23:41:13 <ehird> it's algebri goddamn
23:41:29 <Robdgreat> I'm actually seeing algebras more than algebri
23:41:59 <ehird> Robdgreat: yes well, virii is wrong too everyone knows it's viri
23:43:07 <ais523> I think technically speaking the plural is actually viruses, but nobody believes it
23:43:12 <oklopol_> viri would make most sense because cacti and shit
23:43:25 <oklopol_> ais523: this is not about actual plurals but forced latin plurals
23:43:41 <AnMaster> static const funge_unsigned_cell cf_uzero = 0;
23:43:41 <AnMaster> static const funge_unsigned_cell cf_uone = 1;
23:43:56 <AnMaster> (I need to pass some stuff as pointers to this yes...)
23:44:15 <Robdgreat> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural_of_virus#Virus fwiw
23:44:31 <ais523> you mean there's a Wikipedia article about it?
23:45:02 <ehird> yes I know it's viruses
23:45:09 <ehird> Deewiant: I think you greatly misrepresented how loud 22db is :-)
23:45:48 <ais523> ehird: about 160 or so times as loud as 0db
23:45:53 <Robdgreat> I was just impressed that there's a wikipedia article section that aims to put the myth to rest >.>
23:46:00 <ehird> ais523: Thank you. You're really helpful.
23:46:10 <ehird> Robdgreat: it's VIRI!
23:46:15 <ehird> MODERN PLURALIZATIONNNNNNNNNNNN
23:47:10 <oklopol_> so next, mathematical formulas, electronics, analysis, compression, networks or processors?
23:47:12 <ais523> or have I got the declention wrong?
23:48:00 <Robdgreat> this terminal fails. doesn't do unicode. I need to gtfo of work right now anyway, bbl
23:48:00 <ais523> oklopol_: I was leaving you to wonder which 2
23:48:46 <oklopol_> well only possible split is probably processors vs rest
23:49:06 <oklopol_> or that's not possible either in which case all would be, right
23:49:26 <oklopol_> judging by my sentences sleeping might work too
23:49:41 <oklopol_> i mean i have no idea what i'm saying.
23:50:02 <ais523> well, I have no idea what I'm sayin either
23:50:51 <oklopol_> anyway you ppl haven't made the decision for me yet.
23:51:16 <oklopol_> fungot: could you have like a choice function
23:51:17 <fungot> oklopol_: swing, and swt relate? combs ( list-string combs))) without using " if" or " jumping into a snake pit" ( fnord)
23:51:26 <ehird> yes=latter, no=former
23:51:52 <ehird> oklopol_: well so?
23:52:07 <ehird> oklopol_: here's how to do it
23:52:09 <oklopol_> well you know i'd get too much information.
23:52:38 <ehird> mathematical formulas, electronics, analysis, compression, networks or processors
23:52:39 <ehird> compression, networks or processors
23:52:41 <ehird> no (first half, round up)
23:52:43 <ehird> compression, networks
23:53:02 <ehird> oklopol_: who cares about fairness
23:53:34 <ais523> I've known servers where ChanServ had a random-number function
23:53:36 <ehird> oklopol_: python -c '__import__("random").choice(["math formulas","electronics","analysis","compression","networks","processors"])'
23:53:42 <oklopol_> if i wanted an unfair distribution, i'd ask humans.
23:53:47 <ehird> oklopol_: er python -c 'print __import__("random").choice(["math formulas","electronics","analysis","compression","networks","processors"])'
23:54:13 <oklopol_> nice i get to use my ubuntu powers
23:54:22 <ehird> magical ubuntu powers.
23:54:26 <ehird> that i shall have soon.
23:55:27 <oklopol_> "math formulas" it seems; good choice
23:58:17 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't that: python -c 'print(__import__("random").choice(["math formulas","electronics","analysis","compression","networks","processors"]))'
23:58:26 <AnMaster> or do you have anything against python 3?
23:58:32 <ehird> AnMaster: nobody uses python 3 because no libraries support it
23:58:39 <ehird> and the official python places recommend against using it
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23:59:45 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, but IMO any esolang projects in python should be polygots between 2 and 3
23:59:59 <ehird> This was an esolang project?