00:00:11 wha 00:00:13 t 00:00:35 Based on a count of greek letters in this HMM-based paper, this one at least is very nontrivial. 00:00:58 if if i sent you a song or two, do you think you might be able to identify its genre? 00:01:40 erm i think anyone can do that i mean anyone who is not musically sheltered i think unless like you want me to determine precise metal subgenres 00:01:41 or like 00:01:44 what kind of noise is this noise music ehird 00:01:45 well he's ehird what can't he do? 00:01:49 that i would not be able to do probably 00:02:26 i can't determine genres 00:02:36 except a few trivial ones 00:02:41 well ill throw it to you and oklopol 00:02:54 oklopol_, ehird can't make PSOX magically disappear 00:02:59 Sgeo_: no i can 00:03:00 err i can't actually listen to anything atm 00:03:03 but go ahead... 00:03:06 well not magically i can do it scientifically?? 00:03:37 oklopol_: Can you distinguish all of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_electronic_music_genres 00:03:53 fizzie: Hey the finn guy wrote a thing all about that didn't he 00:03:59 So you finns should be very good at it 00:04:10 I could probably distinguish like 3-5 electronic musical subgenreificationerams 00:04:13 yams 00:04:33 fizzie: i don't know the difference between rap and hip hop 00:04:51 I probably wouldn't know Nitzhonot from Psybient. (According to the list, those two are both subgenres.) 00:05:17 oklopol_: well isn't rapping part of hip hop music 00:05:18 i think?? 00:05:29 oklopol 00:05:32 Trip-hip-hop-a-pop-pop. 00:05:35 rap is a vocal styling 00:05:39 hiphop is a kind of breakbeat. 00:05:47 psygnisfive_: breakbeat? 00:05:51 yes 00:06:06 So give song psygnisfive_ ? 00:06:14 psygnisfive_: what's that i mean 00:06:17 i generally go by ishkur's guide as _the_ taxonomy: 00:06:18 http://techno.org/electronic-music-guide/ 00:06:22 ishkur 00:06:23 so go there and look up breakbeat 00:06:24 that's the finn guy 00:06:36 err the thing in that page is tiny 00:06:46 http://techno.org/electronic-music-guide/music.swf 00:06:48 thar 00:06:50 http://techno.org/electronic-music-guide/music.swf 00:06:51 but yeah 00:06:53 that's the finn guy! 00:06:53 :| 00:06:58 hes canadian. 00:07:03 ... 00:07:04 well 00:07:07 his moniker 00:07:09 is finn-ish 00:07:10 so i declare 00:07:11 him 00:07:12 an 00:07:13 I remember seeing a link. I have no clue about nationality. 00:07:14 honorary 00:07:16 finn 00:07:16 oh it's a genre. 00:07:17 its not finn-ish 00:07:21 it doesnt have enough vowels 00:07:25 or umlauts 00:07:31 no as a nick 00:07:31 ïïshkuur 00:07:44 We don't have ï. :( 00:07:52 wellnowwhat.net/transfers/OldFlame.mp3 00:07:55 wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Dimensions.mp3 00:07:57 nor sh 00:08:02 wellnowwhat.net/transfers/SandovalsRun.mp3 00:08:06 any of those three 00:08:07 afk 00:08:29 genres are a stupid idea anyway 00:08:52 http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/OldFlame.mp3 ← ambient. 00:09:07 http://wellnowwhat.net/transfers/Dimensions.mp3 ← more ambient. 00:09:09 this stuff sucks 00:09:13 wait no 00:09:15 that isn't ambient later on 00:09:16 I don't even know 00:09:17 it's just shit 00:09:20 i can't classify shit 00:09:21 :D 00:09:32 it's like 00:09:34 what animal made this 00:09:37 then pointing to a huge pile of shi 00:09:37 t 00:09:40 i don't fucking know man 00:10:25 i know elephant, dog, cat, rabbit, certain birds, list goes on and on 00:11:53 o 00:12:06 oh and horse ofc 00:12:34 ehird: how many dimensions were there? 00:12:35 Llllizards. Weren't you one? 00:12:41 oklopol_: 7 00:12:55 fizzie: lizards don't poo 00:12:56 ... 00:13:08 why don't you take like a dictionary and learn some biology 00:13:21 ehird: how old was the flame? 00:13:34 oklopol_: est 19:37 00:13:35 fizzie: lizards do reverse osmosis 00:13:54 * oklopol_ is a bit filthy 00:14:06 oklopol_: no more questions?? 00:17:13 ehird stop hatin' on EFC music :P 00:17:31 EFC? 00:17:35 does that stand for 00:17:37 effing fucking crap 00:17:39 earth: final conflict 00:17:40 i think it does 00:17:49 i like the music, shut up. >.< 00:18:06 oklopol_: i'll answer: the run was long 00:19:08 ehird, if you had to GUESS 00:19:10 what kind of music would it be 00:19:21 psygnisfive_: it's not music, it's soundtrack 00:19:26 well it is 00:19:27 i mean it doesn't fit into any genre 00:19:27 but 00:19:32 because it isn't really music as such 00:19:34 no no it DOES 00:19:39 ive heard music like that elsewhere 00:19:46 well, often in other soundtracks or similar things 00:19:51 but 00:19:53 it sounds like mark oldfield, to be frank. 00:19:57 er is that his name 00:19:58 its not just "Soundtrack Music" 00:19:59 I don't know his nam 00:19:59 e 00:20:01 you know 00:20:03 that guy 00:20:03 mark oldfield? 00:20:09 i will look. 00:20:12 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Oldfield 00:20:14 him 00:20:17 it sounds like his crap 00:20:38 oh. maybe his non-dance stuff? 00:20:38 am here still? 00:20:40 hmm 20 seconds lag. so i guess no. 00:20:44 fungot: eroijg 00:20:44 oklopol_: i think i'll still make that " without a good name 00:20:46 oklopol_: hi 00:21:01 it could easily be some sort of newage/neofolk/etc kind of stuff 00:21:02 psygnisfive_: what is the genre, anyway? 00:21:05 yes 00:21:06 exactly 00:21:06 new age 00:21:08 that's what i meant 00:21:11 i hate that genre 00:21:39 i cant find any newage that sounds liek that tho 00:21:42 all the newage i find is like 00:21:46 enya stuff 00:21:49 and this isnt enya-like 00:21:55 mike oldfield is very like that 00:22:08 tacky shit like you'd find in the background of a shitty documentary, like about the planets or something 00:22:12 on discovery channel 00:22:12 must be his non-dance stuff 00:22:13 plastic music 00:22:15 yeah man! 00:22:20 thats exactly the stuff! 00:22:34 the artists for this did the music for the Earth IMAX movie 00:22:56 EXACTLY 00:22:59 it's SHITE 00:23:00 i love this kind of music. precisely BECAUSE its all planet documentary like 00:23:05 i LOVE those documentaries 00:23:05 so 00:23:13 i miss them, actually. noone does them anymore. they were like 00:23:18 "artists" 00:23:22 that's kind of elevating them 00:23:25 early 90s "science is so cool!" type stuff 00:23:40 SCIENCE = CHICKS 00:23:42 Wut 00:23:46 lol 00:23:53 its very like 00:24:01 science is wondrous and such 00:24:11 ehird, if oldfield is the kind of stuff im looking for 00:24:15 i will uh... 00:24:19 what do you want me to do 00:24:33 get better tastes 00:24:38 besides that 00:24:44 ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 00:24:45 science is no longer cool :( 00:24:54 is this like with 3 wish genies wwhere I can ask for infinite wishes psygnisfive_? 00:24:54 these days, only gay sex is cool 00:24:55 lament: we must make it cool again! 00:25:10 ehird: no 00:25:18 damn 00:25:34 Well. 00:25:49 hmph, i located my music gear, but i can't load old flame :< 00:26:06 you're not missing anything 00:26:11 in fact you're anti-missing things 00:26:30 keep trying oklopol 00:26:30 :D 00:26:33 oh hey 00:26:36 oklopol is finnish 00:26:41 ... 00:26:42 you just realiesd? 00:26:44 realised 00:26:45 that means leak spin is his national anthem! 00:26:57 i 00:26:58 yep 00:26:59 really don't think so 00:27:05 sure is 00:27:06 also it's leekspin 00:27:06 he just said yes. 00:27:11 whatever 00:27:15 it is not a leakage spinning around 00:27:17 that would be ridiculous 00:27:20 * psygnisfive_ spins ehirds leek 00:27:21 leakage is an abstract concept 00:27:28 this is true, ehird. 00:27:43 he's just used to typing meat spin cuz he's kinda gay. 00:27:53 very true 00:27:58 i don't get how meatspin lemonparty etc are shocksites 00:28:00 they're just porn 00:28:04 * psygnisfive_ spins oklopol_'s meat 00:28:08 okay lemonparty is old people, gross factor, i get it 00:28:22 but meatspin is just a tranny. that's like, mainstream 00:28:25 how is that a shock site 00:28:34 is meatspin even tranny? 00:28:40 think so 00:28:52 ages since i saw it 00:29:19 no it isn't 00:29:29 it's just a twirly dick 00:29:44 and a guy who wears skimpy undies when tanning 00:30:09 actually, it could easily be a transwoman 00:30:22 i can't take this obscene scene 00:30:27 have to leave 00:30:31 bye 00:30:32 afk going to ikea 00:30:36 bye 00:30:37 wait wait 00:30:38 psygnisfive_: 00:30:40 you have an ikea like 00:30:42 RIGHT THERE?? 00:30:42 ok 00:30:43 holy fuck 00:30:45 awesome 00:30:47 i want ikeas like 00:30:48 well 00:30:49 its maybe like 00:30:49 next to my house 00:30:51 i would go eery da 00:30:52 10 miles away 00:30:52 but 00:30:53 y 00:30:55 NO 00:30:57 you ruined it 00:31:00 you destroyed my life 00:31:01 god damn 00:31:03 ehird, ill take you with me on my phone 00:31:08 give me your screenname 00:31:10 i am in a phone now? 00:31:13 ehird: so go to sweden 00:31:13 youll be at ikea, but by proxy 00:31:18 screenname? 00:31:21 like on what 00:31:30 aim 00:31:39 upp! too late 00:31:40 im out 00:31:41 i don't use aim 00:31:41 bye! 00:31:57 no ikea proxy for you! 00:32:08 :( 00:32:13 psygnisfive_: can't you use irc on your phone 00:32:22 is it an iphone, colloquy is on the app store, it's free you know. 00:32:26 i'm guessing it's an iphone because you're a mac fag. 00:33:30 -!- Asztal_ has quit (Connection timed out). 00:33:31 If WINE was perfect, I'd be a Linux person 00:33:39 Sgeo_: lern2vm 00:33:41 lern2dualboot 00:33:48 lern2googletogetwineworkingwhenitdoesn't 00:33:56 vm is useless in this case >.> 00:33:57 lern2usenativelinuxreplacement 00:33:57 s 00:34:09 there's no justification for using windows as your default day to day OS 00:34:10 whatsoever 00:34:29 ehird, what if I want to play various MMORPGs day to day? 00:34:39 Sgeo_: use a vm, or wine 00:34:45 [[and stop being an mmorpg addict]] 00:34:47 MMORPGs that might be difficult or impossible to get running in WINE, and which are 3d 00:34:50 yes, there are vms with 3d accelleration 00:34:56 ehird, where? 00:35:02 Sgeo_: virtualbox, I believe 00:35:06 vmware probably have something for that now too 00:35:10 It's becoming commonplace 00:36:21 Would there be a way to take the OS currently running, and put it in a VM? So that I don't need another copy or a cracked copy of XP? 00:36:34 erm do you have the CD? 00:36:46 No 00:36:53 why not 00:37:13 also if you don't have the cd put the partition on a flash drive or sth then import that into the vm? 00:37:17 taht may be illegal anyway 00:37:22 Bleh 00:37:24 gettign a pirated copy would be a lot easier 00:38:03 I don't feel comfortable ever putting a password in a pirated anything 00:38:14 This includes MMORPG passwords 00:38:21 l o l 00:38:41 Incidentally, why would I want to go through this effort, just to not use Windows? 00:38:41 Sgeo_: There's a problem here, and it exists somewhere, and one endpoint of it is the chair. 00:38:51 I'll let you figure out the other endpoint. 00:39:01 lol 00:41:07 Sgeo_: and because keeping things that absolutely need windows in their cage of dung lets you not use windows elsewhere 00:41:15 and if you need telling why windows is bad, uh, hopeless case. 00:41:53 ehird, my understanding is: Crashy and malwarey and not easy to use 00:42:22 Is there anything else wrong with Windows? 00:42:56 The business behind it is quite frankly immoral and doesn't care about customers. The OS is full of legacy cruft and was badly designed from the start. It is unstable, and instead of fixing security problems, they make you run a program that *detects things trying to exploit them and deletes them* -- what a stupid "fix". And the UI is awful. 00:43:03 I can't really think of a way in which Windows is _not_ bad. 00:44:41 Qwerty is bad 00:44:49 your mom is bad 00:45:57 Is Freespire considered evil? 00:46:00 Well, I can't think of any way that Qwerty is not bad. The only reason people use it is because of the great share of the market 00:46:20 Sgeo_: Freespire is, uh, just not good. It doesn't have advantages and it tries too hard to be Windows. 00:46:28 If you want something that Just Works, ubuntu does an excellent job. 00:46:29 I guess it's the same as with Windows, only that the margins are closer 00:46:41 What about Linux Mint? 00:46:47 Sgeo_: what's wrong with ubuntu 00:46:49 linux mint is ubuntu-based 00:46:53 and doesn't really add anything 00:46:56 and has a small community = worse support 00:47:13 ehird, I get bored easily. I spent 3 years (iirc) on Ubuntu 00:47:36 I only recommend based on goodness, not boredom-whims, so I'm not sure I can help. 00:48:40 Sgeo_: ubuntu has changed a lot recently 00:48:41 IMO 00:50:05 Hm, I should try KDE4 at some point 00:50:21 KDE4 is nice. I prefer GNOME these days tho. 00:56:30 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:56:50 -!- Mony has joined. 00:56:56 * Sgeo_ desperately wants more OOTS 00:57:20 -!- Mony has changed nick to Guest98422. 00:57:22 bye 00:57:32 -!- Guest98422 has quit (Client Quit). 01:00:30 OH CRAP 01:00:45 what 01:00:45 I think someone on deviantart thinks someone tried to gain unauthorized access 01:00:55 ... who gives a shit? What? 01:00:59 I did the Lost Password thing on DA, for username Sgeo 01:01:02 (1) which someone 01:01:07 (2) who gives a shit about deviantart 01:01:08 There really is a Sgeo on DA that isn't me 01:01:08 (3) so? 01:01:12 (4) who cares? 01:01:18 (5) why is it "OH CRAP" 01:01:30 DA might investigate? 01:01:45 and put you in jail for clicking remember password for an account that wasn't yours by mistake? 01:01:49 OH THE HUGE MANATEE!!! 01:34:54 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 02:16:08 OH IKEA 02:16:11 SO SO GREAT 02:20:04 THEREFORE YOU EAT BABIES 02:20:30 i do. 02:20:34 babies are delicious. 02:52:20 mmm daim 04:02:34 -!- psygnisfive_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:04:05 -!- cherez has joined. 04:04:05 -!- cherez has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:08:24 -!- cherez has joined. 04:08:33 -!- cherez has left (?). 04:18:03 -!- cherez has joined. 04:20:37 -!- cherez has left (?). 05:21:32 -!- calamari_ has joined. 05:23:25 -!- calamari_ has changed nick to calamari. 05:26:36 * kerlo verifies that the channel is off topic 05:31:04 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:35:14 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 06:35:42 -!- calamari- has joined. 06:37:50 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:46:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:37:51 -!- calamari- has quit ("Leaving"). 08:52:15 -!- Mony has joined. 08:52:51 -!- Mony has changed nick to Guest30651. 08:58:03 -!- Guest30651 has changed nick to M0ny. 09:02:40 -!- tombom has joined. 09:06:06 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:35:43 -!- neldoreth has quit ("leaving"). 09:35:52 -!- neldoreth has joined. 10:00:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:06:56 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 10:06:56 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:25:40 -!- Asztal_ has joined. 10:46:49 -!- oklopol_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:53:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:55:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:56:46 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("X-Chat -> http://xchat.org <- At least when I quit I don't look like a lamer"). 11:01:33 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:27:57 -!- neldoreth has quit ("leaving"). 11:29:56 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 12:51:51 -!- neldoreth has joined. 13:45:59 -!- ehird has left (?). 13:46:13 -!- ehird has joined. 13:46:16 -!- ehird has left (?). 13:46:20 -!- ehird has joined. 13:46:21 -!- ehird has left (?). 13:46:25 -!- ehird has joined. 13:54:34 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:00:13 -!- neldoreth has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 14:01:51 * AnMaster wonders if it is insane to change the feature test macros between including system headers 14:02:35 example #define _GNU_SOURCE\n#include #undef _GNU_SOURCE\n#include 14:02:40 or something like tha 14:02:42 that* 14:02:49 AnMaster: that will break things in undefined ways. 14:03:02 what I suspected then. 14:03:08 well I don't know for a fact 14:03:12 I'd just be incredibly surprised if it didn't 14:03:35 also I can't see any reason to do that thing 14:03:36 http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=floppy_drive.html ← but is the floppy drive silent?!?!?! 14:03:50 lol do people buy floppy drives? 14:04:08 ehird, I can't see the CD being silent either 14:04:24 "Overstock" heh 14:04:28 cd drives generally are quiet once they get going 14:04:34 floppy drives are a KRRRRRRRRRNK KNK KNK KNK KRRRRRRRNK 14:04:37 affair 14:04:48 why have you got a CD in anyway, apart from to rip it :-) 14:04:50 or install an os 14:05:04 ehird, on non-macs you sometimes use floppies to update bios, or if using windows xp, to provide SATA drivers during install 14:05:10 but that would be about all I think 14:05:21 These come without a floppy drive configured 14:05:26 mhm 14:05:29 Can't you update the BIOS from a CD? 14:05:31 I don't see why not 14:05:38 ehird, probably you can with newer ones 14:06:05 I still need to figure out how to tell the BIOS "shut up and boot the OS" :-) 14:06:41 ehird, well there is usually some "fast boot" option on by default 14:06:42 or such 14:06:52 AnMaster: I mean more the page of output they all give 14:07:02 That is relevant to absolutely no-one who isn't trying to fix a BIOS problem 14:07:30 or "non-verbose, but fill screen with BIOS manufacture's logo in low resolution instead" 14:07:42 ooh my shit WinFast board did that! 14:07:49 hm? 14:07:56 old motherboard I had 14:08:30 well, usually it is the default even, and you have to manually turn on verbose output to get rid of that logo 14:08:40 * AnMaster prevers verbose output over messy logo 14:08:43 It's not the default on older mobos 14:08:47 mhm 14:09:39 ehird, btw I saw a server bios (using a kvm) that waited with a prompt like "press 1 to enter options, 2 to continue to boot", luckily with a 10 second timeout 14:09:43 still quite wtfy 14:09:53 AnMaster: reminds me of GRUB's default settings 14:10:14 "SINCE YOU HAVE FAILSAFE AND MEMTEST VARIANTS I WILL SIT HERE FOR 15 SECONDS WAITING FOR YOU TO NOT CHOOSE THEM" 14:10:16 well yes, many bootloaders do something like that, but for a bios it is rather unusual 14:10:27 for grub silent and 0sec timeout ftw 14:10:34 (just hammer ESC :-)) 14:11:10 ehird, I would suggest a 3 second timeout or so, in case you do need to select other options, and also the grub menu allows you to edit existing options (hit e iirc) 14:11:21 Like I said, hammer ESC 14:11:28 The situation's rare enough that I'd prefer a fast boot 14:11:32 Although rebooting is rare too 14:11:48 hammering esc works with a 0 timeout? 14:12:22 sure, you just grab it while it's working out what to do 14:12:23 also I like fast boot, but an extra 3 seconds doesn't bother me, since it makes it easier in case of issues. 14:12:37 also,* 14:12:39 a 1s timeout may be better 14:12:44 since you don't have to hammer it and get lucky 14:12:44 mhm 14:13:04 Coreboot is quite appealing to me. 14:13:14 For the fast linux bootup 14:13:18 But really, I never reboot 14:13:26 Apart from upgrades 14:13:36 indeed 1 sec could work, if my screen didn't do so slow mode switching (yet people complain about slow mode switching under linux, but it is no faster under windows or during boot anyway) 14:13:52 (at least in my experience) 14:14:02 ehird, then you would like kexec 14:14:14 upgrade kernel without reboot, old kernel starts new one 14:14:17 so you skip BIOS 14:14:40 Kernel upgrades aren't too frequent enough for me to mess with that... 14:14:40 on the other hand, running the self test bit in BIOS sometimes may be a good idea, hardware does fail sometimes. 14:15:05 'sides, rebooting is an excuse to trash the dormant windows lying around :-) 14:15:14 ehird, so is kexec 14:15:25 it doesn't keep apps running 14:15:33 you only skip bios and bootloader 14:15:37 rest is the same 14:15:46 True. 14:15:53 That'd only save a second or two. :P 14:15:57 Is it stable? 14:16:11 iirc it is "mostly stable" 14:16:25 there is some hardware that doesn't like being reinitialised without a reboot or such 14:16:36 so YMMV 14:17:19 * ehird 's happy that Google App Engine does java now 14:17:21 ehird, for example, kexec worked on my old computer, but not on this, but I haven't tried it again since 2.6.20 or so 14:17:25 (since you can presumably use any jvm language) 14:17:32 and some hardware have changed since then 14:17:41 AnMaster: mm 14:18:12 I could wait 5 minutes to boot, really, as long as I had hibernate 14:18:39 ehird, kexec is also used nowdays to start a rescue kernel in the case of an oops, a special kernel compiled to just dump the core and shut down. 14:18:52 in case the file system stuff is corrupted in the oopsing kernel 14:19:02 er journaling fses prevent that don't they 14:19:22 ehird, what if journaling code got corrupted in whatever caused the oops 14:19:30 or the disk controller driver 14:19:35 that's the logic behind it 14:19:39 -!- neldoreth has joined. 14:19:44 true 14:20:09 so you use an older, stable kernel as dumping one, while testing last rc 14:20:11 or such 14:20:26 (but if you test last rc you probably got a debugger over serial set up anyway meh) 14:22:15 * ehird checks computer shopping list stack-stack. Top item: {router,kb,mouse} 14:22:26 ((My in-brain organization system is weird.)) 14:23:29 Well, router's easy. 14:24:42 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Linksys-WRT54GL-Wireless-G-Broadband-Router/dp/B000ETX928/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1239197068&sr=8-1 14:24:42 Tada. 14:24:47 ehird, didn't you say you liked your flat apple keyboard? 14:25:08 AnMaster: I'm not so sure it would work with the new system; bluetooth and all that. 14:25:16 ah... 14:25:24 Also, recently it seems to be requiring more pressure to hit the keys, which is a bit awkward on my hands. 14:26:17 ehird, may require cleaning? 14:26:26 perhaps 14:26:32 all keys do it though 14:26:35 consistently 14:27:07 or maybe that greasy thing often found in the plastic shafts for the keys in keyboards have dried up? 14:27:22 I've taken keycaps off before; no grease here. 14:27:36 maybe that is the issue? ;) 14:27:40 or maybe you just typed too much and is tired in your hands?~ 14:38:49 "The ViewSonic VX2835wm 28” multimedia LCD display comes with [...] a proprietary display technology" 14:38:56 Oh, marketing department. 14:39:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:40:16 ew 14:40:19 it;s only 80dpi 14:40:25 perverse 14:43:55 -!- oklopol has joined. 14:49:01 Sony's (very-full-of-proprietary-technology) Vaio P has a 8" (diagonal) screen, with a 1600x768-pixel resolution; that's sqrt(1600^2+768^2)/8 ≈ 222 dots per inch. 14:49:07 That should be more to your tastes. 14:49:26 heh 14:49:43 I have heard of 300 dpi screens 14:49:55 I just want a ~30" screen with >1920x1200 res 14:50:10 Preferably dvi 14:50:29 The printer I have in my basement does 72 LPI, I think. 14:50:58 iirc some greyscale only TFT at an insane price, "no dead pixels" warranty, 100% sealed, meant for use at hospitals iirc 14:51:19 my dad has an old black and white slow as fuck huge whirring printer that prints to bad quality paper with punched holes on the side 14:51:22 it's *awesome* 14:51:37 It's a 9-pin dot matrix thing, and I think it supported the 8-lines-per-inch line spacing mode. I used to have dot matrix art on the walls back when I lived alone in Vantaa. 14:52:02 Had to write the conversion-to-printer-data-routine myself, since the lines were a bit overlapping. :p 14:52:25 fizzie: you're making me feel like i wasted my life again 14:52:27 stop it. 14:52:33 I had http://isometric.sixsided.org/data/strips/only_when_youre_ready/21.gif printed. :p 14:52:43 why couldn't i have been born 10 years earlier 14:53:10 Funny, I have the exact same feelings. Besides, living in a PC household, I almost completely missed the Commodore age. 14:56:04 * AnMaster grew up in a mac household 14:56:42 :/ 14:56:44 At least you mac people had that paper airplane game. :p 14:56:47 I, uh, grew up in a PC household, but it's not as if anyone else used the computer. 14:56:53 fizzie, I don't remember that... 14:56:56 because it was mine :-P 14:57:20 AnMaster: Well, it's probably not very famous; I just remember seeing it at the place of a a mac-household friend. 14:57:22 ehird, hey, a Apple Classic cost a lot back then 14:57:24 an* 14:57:40 AnMaster: yeah, and? 14:58:09 ehird, that was way before we had internet, when the mac had a floppy drive. AND NO CD DRIVE! 14:58:16 "The consensus was that the Classic was only useful for word processing, spreadsheets and databases." 14:58:17 Thrilling. 14:58:26 AnMaster: I didn't have the internet until 1998 :-P 14:58:28 ehird, that is what my dad did with it basically 14:58:31 Or thereabouts. 14:58:40 ehird, hm 1996 or 1997 or so here I think 14:59:09 Maybe closer to 2000; the ISP (freeserve) was founded in 1998. 14:59:17 I think the old 28.8k modem is still around somewhere. 14:59:17 I was like 4-6. 14:59:21 Not sure. 14:59:30 "but merged into the Wanadoo group in 2000" 14:59:34 Hmm. 14:59:36 I don't remember what the early PCs we had cost; I'm not sure I ever asked, either. I do remember that the 486sx/33 was around 13000 FIM, which would mean about 2190 eur, discounting inflation completely. 14:59:38 Did it change name to wanadoo then? 14:59:40 ah, no 15:00:26 wait 15:00:27 * ehird thinks 15:00:33 I got my pc when I was 3 15:00:37 Then internet 2 years after 15:00:42 So PC 1998, interweb 2000 15:00:52 The PC ran windows 3.11 :-P 15:01:29 I tell you, Windows 3.1 was *awful* 15:01:42 You don't have to tell me, I've been there. 15:01:45 :-) 15:01:50 Windows 1 wasn't that great either. 15:01:58 Only split-screen windowing, for one thing. 15:02:09 But it did have that Reversi game. 15:02:32 I'm using Windows, w-w-w-windows 386 15:02:36 So all my applications are running at once 15:02:41 ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4915875929930836239 ) 15:03:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Winchicagodesktop.png Early windows 95 15:03:21 I wonder if I could deduce our Internet days from the operator things. We had EUnet's strange connection (SLIP with static IP, they gave the public "username.pp.fi" DNS+ip for all customers; oh, and there was a cheaper "only Finnish traffic allowed" option, you had to pay extra for international internet) for a while, maybe not more than a year or so... then we migrated to Dystopia, and that lasted also a year or so before sci.fi ate it; then again a bit late 15:03:21 r sci.fi, DLC and some other Finnish ISP formed Saunalahti, which still exists. 15:03:28 Maybe google knows when all this happened. 15:03:29 got my own computer when I was 9 or so, and internet only a few years later 15:03:41 Also. 15:03:42 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk 15:03:47 This explains much about MSFT. 15:04:02 we had dial-up until 2004 or so iirc 15:04:18 I got broadband after 2004. 15:04:22 I think 15:04:39 fizzie, long distance internet?... 15:04:46 AnMaster: Yes. Great, eh? 15:04:51 crazy indeed 15:05:25 fizzie, did they somehow ensure in-country packages didn't get routed outside 15:05:38 s/packages/packets/ 15:05:46 fizzie: Long distance internet? Reminds me of that age-old bash quote. 15:05:51 ehird, same 15:05:52 Fuckin' Europe's so expensive. 15:06:10 it was what I was referring to even 15:06:13 :-) 15:06:28 Locanet. 15:06:31 It's not very catchy. 15:06:42 AnMaster: I don't know, must've been some sort of routing trick. Maybe they only allowed traffic over the Finnish Internet exchange (ficix) and relied that their ficix-peers wouldn't carry their non-local traffic anywhere. 15:07:18 Fickicks! 15:07:33 hm 15:07:36 Well 15:07:39 Hmm, there's a magazine article from 1998 which says that "Dystopia was sold to Clarinet a year ago", so that was 1997. Too bad I can't really estimate how long the Dystopia- and EUnet times were. 15:07:40 only .fi wouldn't be too restrictive 15:07:46 Since .fi were interwebs early adopters. 15:08:08 EUnet's network connection came with some version of Mosaic on a floppy, but I've forgotten which it was. 15:08:09 fizzie, email then 15:08:23 still could easily be routed outside, lists and such 15:08:29 I started with MSIE5. I think 15:08:53 Maybe they allowed global email, can't remember. 15:09:03 TALK TO YOUR PEERS 15:09:03 ^I 15:09:04 oooh yes I still have the floppies with Netscape 2 for Mac around iirc, from 1996 or so 15:09:05 INTERNATIONALLY! 15:09:07 ^I 15:09:24 AnMaster: I remember having a fucked up view of the windows/mac world 15:09:25 Specifically: 15:09:39 The big box saying PowerPC was a PC emulator that macs come with. 15:09:39 And 15:09:44 Windows uses IE, macs use Netscape. 15:09:49 So on, so forth. 15:10:02 ehird, well this was way before first IE for mac anyway 15:10:51 The big box saying PowerPC was a PC emulator that macs come with. <-- how did you come up with that conclusion 15:11:13 AnMaster: It's not the same shape/size as a PC tower, and it has "PC" on. The "Power" bit is like, giving PC power to macs. 15:11:19 I thought the actual mac tower was on the floor or sth, I didn't look 15:11:20 heh 15:11:24 I don't think there was a Netscape back then, so the internetization must've been around '94 or so. 15:11:34 Because it appeared pretty soon. 15:11:38 ehird, you weren't the type who asked then I guess 15:11:47 AnMaster: Oh, I was, but this was at my cousins or sth 15:11:52 And I was young 15:11:55 ah 15:12:00 And also, I was always right on the matters of computers 15:12:12 (because everyone else around me had even less of a clue) 15:12:28 .D 15:12:30 :D* 15:13:11 Spam subject-line: "Need real anti-fungal?" First association was some sort of opposite-of-Befunge thing. 15:18:48 wow, Vista was only released in 2007? 15:18:56 I was sure the horror had gone on for longer than that 15:23:04 AnMaster: isn't ksplice more popular than kexec? 15:32:38 ehird, they do different things though 15:32:43 Well, sure. 15:32:55 It seems like ksplice forces you to rely on them more, to make their updates compatible. 15:33:02 OTOH, kexec basically has no advantages over rebooting. 15:33:09 indeed 15:33:15 and I don't use either 15:33:36 I want a fully replaceable microkernel 15:33:59 so you can upgrade between major versions without restarting programs or disconnecting from irc and so on 15:34:12 AnMaster: http://tunes.org/wiki/microkernel.html 15:34:26 Not the right solution for hotswapping. 15:34:43 hm 15:35:27 The correct solution -- or, at least, as correct as I can think of -- 15:35:29 ehird, Synthesis+Genera+QNX+Plan9, yeah I know they are too different for it to make sense to try to combine them, but still... 15:35:35 is to have the kernel be "Just Another Library" 15:35:39 And have hotswappable libraries 15:35:40 hm interesting 15:35:56 Replace the kernel, everything else suddenly calls the new version. Got an app that needs an old version of a kernel? Sorry, you can't upgrade without closing it (obviously) 15:36:02 ehird, well, you need something in ring 0 to handle process scheduling at least 15:36:12 AnMaster: Sure, if that happens, you have to reboot. 15:36:12 but very nice idea 15:36:17 ehird, nooo! 15:36:18 :( 15:36:23 AnMaster: well 15:36:25 how can you not? 15:36:31 You'd have to kill all processes no matter what 15:37:25 AnMaster: well 15:37:30 AnMaster: unless it just tweaked scheduling, and nothing else 15:37:33 then you could hotpatch i 15:37:34 t 15:37:59 anyway, with a good language with a sophisticated dependency and library system, you could swap the kernel and core libraries without even restarting applications and they'd use them 15:38:04 ehird, 1) suspend all processes, possibly seralise to a single cpu 2) load new process scheduler code 3) transfer control to data-translator function which converts data structures to a new format if needed 4) jump into new scheduler, resume processes and so on 15:38:17 you could do same for every component 15:38:22 say, memory manager or whatever 15:38:27 it wouldn't be easy, true 15:38:29 AnMaster: by the time you do that I've rebooted, and all my processes are back because my system has orthogonal persistence 15:38:42 ehird, that could mitigate the issue indeed 15:38:53 yours is 10x more complex for not having to lose IRC connection for ~10sec :-) 15:39:01 but what about critical systems, that you can't reboot, say a nuclear powerplant control system or whatever 15:39:11 AnMaster: Why are you upgrading their kernel 15:39:27 Upgrading them in general is asking for disaster unless you do it in a very careful, custom way 15:39:32 indeed 15:39:40 ehird, maybe they need a bug fix or something 15:39:49 AnMaster: Work around it 15:39:53 guess so 15:40:00 Also, why are you using a kernel 15:40:10 Surely nuclear powerplant controlsystems are 100% handcoded 15:40:22 You can't really rely on anything except 100% understanding of the code 15:41:12 btw, in support of my point: "Microkernels start from the (Right) idea of having modular high-level system design, and confuse the issue so as to end with the (Wrong) idea of its naive implementation as a low-level centralized run-time module manager, which constitutes a horrible abstraction inversion." — Tunes Wiki 15:41:39 ehird, well, using a real time OS might be a good idea for stability, a monolithic system would risk crashing all if one part crashed 15:42:01 I recall a quote... paraphrasing from memory, "'Operating system' is a term for everything that didn't fit into the language." 15:42:13 so using multiple processes would be a good idea, still bad if something crashing, but better than monolithic crash 15:42:24 and redundant systems of course and so on 15:42:43 I will never work on a nuclear powerplant/hospital computers, etc. 15:42:48 I have too much of a conscience 15:43:39 ehird, what about braking handling computers in cars, those "electronic stability" thingies, iirc QNX is quite common there 15:43:54 QNX kind of seems overboard for that, but that could work. 15:44:09 That's less of a conscience-issue, since, you know, we drove perfectly fine before newfangled cars. 15:44:33 ehird, the original nuclear reactors didn't use computers either 15:44:43 (though there is a difference yes) 15:44:45 Well, yes. 15:44:51 But if the nuclear reactor computer dies, boom. 15:45:03 If your fancy car stabalizer thingymajig stops, I assume you can still drive in the Good Ol' Way. 15:46:22 ehird, you would have multiple fail safe backup computer systems, and if they didn't all come up with the same result you would 1) report error so technicians could fix it 2) for now, follow the result the majority if the fail safe systems ended up with 15:46:31 Yss 15:46:35 I was just explaining the difference 15:46:36 iirc that is how it is done for fly-by-wire in some modern aircrafts 15:47:28 ehird, the fancy car stabalizer thingymajig could fail in a way that made your brakes useless though, potentially. 15:47:37 True. 15:49:35 ehird, anyway, surely you agree it would be cool to perform upgrades without reboot 15:49:40 sure it would be a lot of work 15:49:41 Yes, and I said how :-P 15:50:06 The only thing you can't do is stuff that would change fundamentally how the current programs's operation would start 15:50:40 ehird, can be solved. 15:50:51 Yes, but it comes down to a reboot 15:50:59 no there is another way 15:51:01 Oh? 15:51:02 run everything in a managed environment 15:51:11 you would have to re-JIT yes 15:51:27 I don't think that would work too well 15:51:35 but you could change data structures and so on, even those visible to user space 15:51:52 and then I mean, as in grow the size or whatever 15:52:01 That's not really what I ment 15:52:22 I mean if you fundamentally change the process model 15:52:28 You can't hotswap that buy definitoin 15:52:51 ehird, wouldn't that come down to recompiling against new ABI even 15:53:02 I may have misunderstood exactly what you meant though 15:53:04 Compiling? ABI? Excuse me? ☺ 15:53:20 (Sorry, can't resist contravarsy.) 15:53:35 well of course the managed solution would fix that 15:53:50 I'm talking of an environment already like that 15:54:05 so, in practise what does "fundamentally change the process model" boil down to. 15:54:05 One environment with a sophisticated library dependency system 15:54:17 Regarding hospital software and "100% handcoded": http://sunnyday.mit.edu/papers/therac.pdf 15:54:18 It boils down to restructuring the entire kernel :P 15:54:28 fizzie: Yes, that ol' thing. 15:55:03 It was a depressing read. 15:55:06 hm Computer Modern with an uneven base I think... 15:55:21 hahah 15:55:24 it's like the text was on a wave 15:55:33 no, that base is even 15:55:52 well maybe, but then the font is somehow more messed up than CM usually is 15:56:24 maybe it's pre-rendered 15:56:31 It looks it 15:56:32 kind of fuzzy 15:56:35 hm goes away if I zoom to 250%... was at 200% before 15:56:47 It's the typical messup; in xpdf it is horrible, in Acroread it's rather readable at all zoom levels. 15:57:02 Fuzzy but at least not wavy. 15:57:05 kpdf's info box says Times-Roman, type 1, not embedded 15:57:16 hm 15:57:23 Yes, it's very bitmappy, I think. 15:57:31 as well as three unnamed type 3 that are embedded 15:57:37 (Based on a 800 % zoom in acroread.) 15:57:41 mhm 15:58:18 Anyway, the point of the text wasn't really the typography. :p 15:58:59 Copy-pasting gives junk output. 15:59:00 Grrrrrr. 16:00:50 "The system noticed that something was wrong and halted the X-ray beam, but merely displayed the word "MALFUNCTION" followed by a number from 1 to 64. The user manual did not explain or even address the error codes, so the operator pressed the P key to override the warning and proceed anyway." 16:00:59 There's quite a large PEBKAC value to this. 16:04:58 don't have time to read it all, but I read introduction and parts of background. There should be an "abstract", meh 16:05:10 It's a report on a computer killing people. 16:05:18 I think they don't give a shit how quickly you can read it. 16:05:39 yes I understood that 16:05:43 :P 16:08:22 wow, 5.1 speakers 16:08:25 er 16:08:26 headphones 16:08:28 5.1 headphones 16:18:23 I am becoming increasingly irritated that I'm using a machine that doesn't even have a supported way to open it up and look at the hw. 16:23:42 ehird, sounds like all macs except mac pro? 16:23:52 Exactly. 16:24:20 ehird, and those new whole body laptops are even worse when it comes to that 16:24:27 before you could at least reach the battery 16:24:35 Yuh. 16:25:00 Someone tell them that you can make aesthetically pleasing computers without sealing them up. 16:25:37 I have yet to see a product with a label like: "Only user serviceable parts inside. Must not be serviced by authorized personal." 16:26:02 ++ 16:26:21 That would fit on one of them low-spec-hacky-happy-fun-computery thingies that seem to be starting to exist. 16:26:38 you mean like open hardware thingies? 16:26:44 * AnMaster forgot the name of the project 16:26:44 Yes 16:26:48 some handheld thing 16:26:52 openmono? 16:26:56 something like that iirc 16:26:59 openmoko is a phone 16:27:01 Pandora is the handset, I think? 16:27:06 no clue 16:27:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora_(console) 16:27:28 Hm. 16:27:30 GregorR got one. 16:27:40 The Pandora system by default come with an open source, Linux OS based on Ångström[8], running the minimal Matchbox window manager[9], both originally designed for mobile devices 16:27:40 is that one of the open hardware ones 16:31:32 ehird, about upgrade without downtime... telinit u 16:31:38 U or u tell init to re-execute itself (preserving the state). No re-examining of /etc/inittab file happens. Run level should be one of Ss12345, otherwise request would 16:31:38 be silently ignored. 16:32:01 That sounds quite hard to get right. 16:32:31 ehird, possibly, but it works well in my experience. 16:34:47 bbl going to make some food 16:43:46 http://sha1.us/ ← More liek url longthenization service 16:50:08 irssi has that funky /upgrade command, which exec()s a (potentially upgraded) irssi binary while keeping the existing connections open, so you don't have to /quit. Not a very generic solution. 16:50:37 fizzie: I think if you have a need for that you have an IRC problem 16:50:53 There's a Perl irssi-script to make /upgrade not a lose the window scrollbacks, too, I think. 17:03:41 How queer. The "QuietElite tm-symbol Intel i7 Extreme" = the "QuietElite tm-symbol Intel i7", except it costs several hundred dollars more. 17:03:51 Go do the figuration. 17:15:13 ehird, no difference in specs? 17:15:17 like cache size or so 17:15:25 AnMaster: the cpu model and whatnot are identical 17:15:28 I guess one could be different 17:15:38 mhm 17:16:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core_i7#Processor_cores 17:16:34 hm 17:16:40 or not same "extreme"? 17:16:45 that's what i thought 17:16:53 but the numbers are different 17:17:05 both of these are 965 17:17:08 so they're both ULTRA XTREME 17:17:17 huh 17:18:11 still rather small L3... Isn't there some IBM Power CPU/system with a 256 MB L3 or so? 17:18:25 (yes that's right, MB) 17:19:50 AnMaster: Possibly 17:19:56 I think they have some sort of hybrid technology 17:20:00 Which is why the L2 is so small i guess 17:20:08 "The POWER4 also came in a configuration using a Multi-Chip Module (MCM) containing four POWER4 dies in a single package, with up to 128 MB of shared L3 ECC cache per MCM", and last one is POWER6 17:20:10 hm 17:21:32 * ehird wonders why the Zalman ZM850-HP is more expensive than the one above it, when it's louder and the same wattage: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20639.html 17:22:36 ehird, click the link for details and compare maybe 17:22:40 I did. 17:23:12 [[Cooling System: 17:23:12 1 rear 120mm TriCool™ Fan (standard) 17:23:13 1 top 120mm TriCool™ fan (standard) 17:23:15 1 lower chamber 120mm TriCool™ Fan (standard)]] 17:23:17 that's some extensive cooling 17:23:39 wait the max combined power doesn't add up to total power... 17:24:22 oh I guess it means you can't use max in all groups at once 17:24:50 -!- gavv has joined. 17:25:17 hi gavv 17:25:43 hi, i was victor________ yesterday 17:25:54 ah 17:26:04 I guessed, somehow 17:26:58 heh 17:28:49 not sure anybody need, anyway link: sourceforge.net/projects/bfu 17:47:49 -!- gavv has quit ("EKG2 - It's better than sex!"). 17:48:20 -!- gavv has joined. 17:48:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:54:41 -!- gavv has quit ("EKG2 - It's better than sex!"). 17:55:33 ais523, heh: 17:55:35 file 6519/exe says: broken symbolic link to `/bin/bash (deleted)', but file -L on it says "6519/exe: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), for GNU/Linux 2.6.9, dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped" 17:55:40 that is in /prox 17:55:43 proc* 17:55:49 something very strange is going on there 17:56:10 no, not at all 17:56:16 AnMaster: That symbolic link is magic. You can't follow it to deleted file but you can open it. 17:56:16 -!- gavv has joined. 17:56:23 what happened is, you ran bash 17:56:26 then deleted the executable 17:56:29 ais523, I know why 17:56:32 I upgraded package 17:56:32 6159/exe is a symlink to the old executable 17:56:50 but the odd thing IMO is that you can open it, even when it is marked as broken symlink 17:56:55 which is really rather magic, you're linking to a file that exists (it has an inode), but has no name 17:56:56 that doesn't work on normal file systems 17:57:11 sure it does? 17:57:11 ais523, exactly symlinks don't usually work like that 17:57:13 what ais523 said 17:57:19 Same thing happens with fd symlinks. 17:57:23 well, symlink-to-inode is rather magic 17:58:23 ehird, usually symlinks point to filename, if you delete the file it points to you can't either follow it nor open it. 17:58:34 This way is more logical. :P 17:58:57 no it acts more like a "kind of hardlink, but not really" 17:59:49 # ls -l 2/exe 17:59:49 ls: cannot read symbolic link 2/exe: No such file or directory 17:59:49 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 0 Apr 8 17:30 2/exe 17:59:51 that is strange too 17:59:58 it is one of them kernel pseudo processes 18:00:14 it is a broken symlink, pointing nowhere 18:01:47 ehird, even you have to agree this is crazy 18:02:08 heh 18:02:20 2/exe -> Segmentation fault$ 18:02:30 # file 2/exe 18:02:30 2/exe: unreadable symlink `2/exe' (No such file or directory) 18:03:25 * AnMaster waits for a Penguin In Black saying "There is no such file. Nothing to see here. Move along." 18:06:51 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 18:30:36 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:41:10 strange entry in syslog: gdb[28227] trap stack segment ip:44cea2 sp:7fffb79b7b70 error:0 18:41:33 seems to correspond to the timepoint when gdb died with SIGBUS 18:43:42 that's an interesting-looking stack pointer 18:43:51 I assume you're using 48-bit adressing 18:44:00 which means that it was very nearly at the top of virtual userspace memory 18:44:23 ais523, I'm using x86_64 which means it is using sign extended 48-bit addresses yes 18:45:03 it's just that any address starting 7fff is rather suspicious 18:45:08 http://www.silentpcreview.com/article301-page1.html ← completely fanless pc, only noise is the HDD 18:45:10 amazing 18:45:13 wish they still sold it 18:45:22 fanless computers have been around for ages 18:45:29 but marketing people kept asking for noisy fans on them 18:45:29 yes 18:45:35 because customers thought they were broken 18:45:36 wut 18:45:38 :D 18:45:40 that's hilarious 18:45:51 ais523, indeed. anyway what I did was to "display errno", then restart the program I was debugging, caused internal error message from gdb first time, next time I tried it: SIGBUS 18:46:08 http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20018.html 18:46:08 SP is stack. That IP also looks interesting. 18:46:15 ↑ the cooler I'm intending to get with this new pc 18:46:17 Isn't 7fff where this x86_64 linux always puts the stack? cat /proc/self/maps has a "7fff045d3000-7fff045e8000 rw-p 7ffffffea000 00:00 0 [stack]" entry. 18:46:23 I believe the only fan will be the PSU 18:46:33 And given that the executable itself maps to 0x400000, the IP looks very sensible too. 18:46:35 fizzie, yes think so, slightly randomised though iirc? 18:46:54 Yes, I've forgotten how many bits of randomness it had. Not too many. 18:47:01 More than in x86_32, though. 18:47:15 from different runs: 7ffff4a5d000-7ffff4a73000 7fff24db7000-7fff24dcd000 7fff2bbe6000-7fff2bbfc000 18:47:17 and a few more 18:47:29 ah, aha 18:47:40 ehird: any way you could get the PSU independent of the computer itself, laptop-style? 18:47:46 ais523, where does x86 put it's stack then? 18:47:48 32 bit I mean 18:47:52 ais523: Dunno. There are fanless PSUs, though. 18:47:58 ais523: Which I am considering. 18:48:18 AnMaster: Stack top without randomization is BFFFFFFF. 18:48:22 ffb70000-ffb86000 ffce5000-ffcfb000 ffb90000-ffba6000 and such it seems 18:48:23 ais523: The main source of noise will probably be the 10K "VelociRaptor" 300GB drive 18:48:31 AnMaster: not sure; in 16 bit it's either in the same segment as the heap, or the adjacent segment 18:48:34 but I don't know in 32 bit 18:48:35 But it'll be enclosed in this thing: http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/smart_drive_copper.jpg 18:48:36 Ilari, well seems like my system always randomise it slightly 18:48:59 so I doubt it'll be too loud 18:49:12 AnMaster: Or at least it was. Nowadays there can be some additional stuff there so its bit lower. 18:49:22 still, the velociraptor is listed as 32dBA vs the main 1tb hd's 26dBA 18:50:02 Looks like 20 bits of randomness from those addresses on 64-bit. 18:50:55 In mmap_rnd: 18:50:58 * 8 bits of randomness in 32bit mmaps, 20 address space bits 18:50:58 * 28 bits of randomness in 64bit mmaps, 40 address space bits 18:51:09 Not sure where the stack randomization is done. 18:51:36 (apparently the VelociRaptor is the successor to the Raptor, I suspect Randall Munroe involvement) 18:53:50 http://filebin.ca/eeephv/ais52307_1.xml 18:56:25 but marketing people kept asking for noisy fans on them because customers thought they were broken <<< i've heard of that, but i thought it was a one-time occurrence 18:56:42 well, presumably it had an indirect effect 18:56:54 in that the enigineers didn't try to make a silent computer for a while after that 18:57:02 yeah maybe 18:57:19 this is more conclusive proof that marketers were sent from hell to RUIN EVERYTHING 18:58:00 anyone looked at my link, btw? 18:58:04 yes 18:58:04 it's my latest Enigma level 18:58:06 it is an enigma level 18:58:11 brb 18:58:15 unfortunately, it's likely to be another one AnMaster doesn't particularly like 18:59:04 we should have a competition, whoever makes a level AnMaster likes first gets 6 cookies 18:59:19 ? 18:59:21 * AnMaster just restarted client, no scrollback 18:59:36 or maybe the original typoed version cokies would be better, i could do with some coke right now 18:59:44 AnMaster: http://filebin.ca/eeephv/ais52307_1.xml 18:59:44 also wth, something is broken with spellchecking now 19:00:45 also i don't need to make algebra exercises today! 19:00:47 hooray! 19:00:52 now i can live 19:01:14 More Reasons Not To Upgrade Your Computer: Previously, you were thinking about a super-improved algorithm to do something since your bruteforce method would have taken years. Now, ... 19:01:51 ehird wut 19:01:59 does that contiue 19:02:01 *continue 19:02:15 oklopol: ... = the rest is obvious so why would i insult your inteligamence by typing it 19:02:50 you don't need to, and your brain gets stale? 19:03:06 Exactly! 19:03:15 Fast computers cause brain death. 19:03:26 i don't like guessing, i just like making others guess. 19:04:12 in fact often i deduce something pretty much without doubt, but still ask, because i don't consider myself obligated to make that deduction 19:16:42 AnMaster: do you know if it's possible to do finer-grained partitioning in linux than per-directory? 19:16:58 I'd like ~ to be on the 1tb but ~/local/{bin,lib,etc,...} to be on the raptor 19:17:08 where / is on the raptor 19:17:31 on the raptor? (I restarted client multiple times since I mentioned it, due to fixing bugs after upgrading it) 19:17:57 anyway what about mounting ~/local with mount --bind? 19:18:08 or such 19:18:31 or using symlinks and put it somewhere else 19:18:43 ehird, I'm not sure what you are trying to do 19:18:53 raptor = one of the drives 19:19:23 / = raptor, /home = 1TB, but I'd like /home/ehird/local to be = raptor (I'm putting OS stuff on the raptor and data on the 1tb) 19:19:43 i could symlink, though I dunno where the target would be -- mount --bind sounds promising, wuzzit do? 19:19:44 ehird: use a loopback device mount 19:20:00 ais523: I've heard of it but I don't know what it is 19:20:08 it's sort of like a hardlinked directory, but done via mounting rather than via linking 19:20:10 ehird, mount bind mounds one folder in another folder 19:20:15 there should be examples all over the place 19:20:21 can in recent kernels be read only bind mount too 19:20:35 AnMaster: ah 19:20:38 even if the "real" directory is read write 19:20:41 I wonder where I'd put it? 19:21:04 maybe /aux/ehird/local or something 19:21:15 ehird, maybe mkdir /ehird-local; chown ehird:ehird /ehird-local; mont --bind /ehird-local /home/ehird/local 19:21:21 right 19:21:22 or that 19:21:38 ehird, you can add it to fstab, but needs a slightly odd syntax 19:21:44 oh? 19:21:53 let me check what i used... 19:22:17 what did you use it for? 19:22:25 /usr/portage /opt/gentoo32/usr/portage none rw,bind 0 0 19:22:39 the "none" was the odd bit indeed 19:22:49 hm 19:22:51 I guess /aux = /opt 19:23:13 huh 19:23:20 FHS says /opt/etc should be /etc/opt 19:23:21 anyway this isn't *nix, how you do this differ between different *nix 19:23:40 hmm, /opt is for software only 19:23:50 guess /aux/ehird-local would be best 19:23:59 FHS defines an /aux? 19:24:03 AnMaster: is a bind mount any slower? 19:24:03 and no 19:24:07 I just made it up 19:24:54 ehird, about speed, I guess in theory it might be, or maybe not. I haven't noticed any difference certainly, nor have I performed any benchmarks 19:24:54 yay, I just did Magic Triangle 19:25:05 kay 19:26:27 ehird, I don't know what sort of benchmark you would use either, since once you opened file it would be resolved using inode or such, so dd would show no difference certainly. 19:27:16 in any case, disk IO itself would be a much larger bottleneck than any indirection overhead from mount --bind 19:28:19 bind mount is a pretty simple driver 19:28:31 I imagine it's negligible compared with the overhead of the driver for the actual disk 19:28:38 which is negligible compared to the disk itself 19:29:32 rightyho 19:29:46 i was kind of happier before I delved into all this hardware stuff 19:29:50 software is so much simpler 19:30:20 ehird, when did you start doing that? 19:30:40 AnMaster: shortly after deciding to get a non-Mac. 19:30:44 Personally I've just been mounting sub under subdirectories of /mnt, and symlinking ~/foo if I happened to want a local "alias". 19:30:50 ehird, ah... 19:30:57 still on mac though 19:31:09 Yes, well, won't be in a month or two. 19:31:11 Prolly. 19:31:58 fizzie: /media is the standard place to mount things 19:31:58 fizzie: /mnt is kind of inaccurate since it's not a separate devic 19:31:59 e 19:32:00 ehird, right, but please study hardware more, it is fun, and you will end up coding in C (or even asm) due to caring about overhead and cache locality soon 19:32:02 :P 19:32:09 traditionally, /mnt never contains anything, it's used as a temporary mount point 19:32:15 as in, the whole thing 19:32:17 soon after that I predict you will like cfunge 19:32:26 ais523: most distros use /mnt = ubuntu's /media 19:32:27 I believe 19:32:31 AnMaster: I think part of the bliss of a high-end machine is not having to worry about that tuff 19:32:33 stuff 19:32:36 ehird: no, most distros use /media = ubuntu's /media 19:32:39 it's in the FHS 19:32:41 ehird, iirc suse used /media at least 19:32:41 ais523: really? okay. 19:32:44 back when I used it 19:33:00 ais523, /mnt is the traditional one though, which I use on my system too 19:33:04 AnMaster: oh, and if you want testing on a core i7 quad-core nehalem @ 3.2ghz I'm happy to help :-P 19:33:24 I've been leaving /media alone, since it smells like some sort of strange auto-mountery thing. 19:33:46 fizzie, ah another hal hater :D 19:34:44 It amuses me that you get funky ram amounts like 6gb because it works natively with ram multiples of 3gb. 19:34:48 * AnMaster can't stand hal... usually it doesn't set it up the way I want it. 19:34:58 Who needs compatibility :-P 19:34:59 ehird, err what does 19:35:07 AnMaster: core i7/"nehalem" 19:35:09 ah 19:35:25 ehird, so it needs multiples of 3 GB... 19:35:27 I did do something like putting in fstab "/dev/disk/by-id/usb-Generic_CF_0000001-0:0-part1 /media/cf vfat user,noauto 0 0" and "/dev/disk/by-id/usb-Generic_MMC_SD_0000001-0:2-part1 /media/sd vfat user,noauto 0 0" so I can just "mount /media/sd" when I need to mount a sd card from the camera. 19:35:34 That's very media-ific, after all. 19:35:39 it can't use, say, 4 GB RAM 19:35:42 or what 19:35:48 AnMaster: It can, I believe, it's just less efficient. 19:35:49 I may be wrong. 19:35:54 mhm 19:36:18 It's all rather confusing 19:36:29 AnMaster: did your friend go into any detail about "core i7 = pentium 2.0"? 19:37:26 "/media : Mount point for removeable media" 19:37:28 ehird, iirc he said something about long pipeline and hyperthreading, as well as heat 19:37:54 See; I can't put my "another HD with no real place in the filesystem tree" into /media, because it is very much not removable. Well, removable easily, anyway. 19:37:59 AnMaster: long pipeline - is this really a big issue? Aren't CPUs very good at branch prediction these days? 19:38:08 AnMaster: hyperthreading - sth about security right? I don't care about that 19:38:12 did you know that floppy drives are hot-swappable? 19:38:28 heat - I think the cooler I am getting is some sort of mega-amazing i7-optimized supercooler 19:38:29 Did you know that ISA cards are hot-swappable? 19:38:39 DID YOU KNOW THAT COMPUTERS ARE HOT-SWAPPABLE 19:38:42 ehird: being good at branch prediction still doesn't give you a prediction hit every time round 19:38:47 ais523, somehow I got confused because I read it as "ehird" said that. And thought "only ais would say that" 19:38:56 but long-pipeline is nearly always more efficient than short-pipeline 19:38:58 Well, maybe not officially, but certainly I did swap it hot. PCI display adapters do not seem to be very hot-swappable. 19:39:10 ais523: yes, well, branch mispredictions happen, no? 19:39:13 yep 19:39:16 Anyway, FHS also says: "Although the use of subdirectories in /mnt as a mount point has recently been common, it conflicts with a much older tradition of using /mnt directly as a temporary mount point." -- so I'm certainly not the only one who's been using /mnt subdirs. 19:39:19 with the high clock speed I can't imagine it matters too much 19:39:24 and you get a delay equal to the latency of the pipeline, rather than its throughput 19:39:37 which is normally 50 or so times as much on modern processors 19:39:41 not the end of the world, really 19:39:43 ehird, they are certainly better, but he said something about overhead when there were misses was way larger, and some apps were faster on his core2 than his core i7, in both cases compiled with last version of icc 19:39:58 AnMaster: what specs are the cpus? 19:40:13 A core 2 is also on the cards, maybe 19:40:17 So I'd be interested 19:40:38 is there anywhere listing pipeline sizes or w/e? 19:40:41 ehird, well it was the non-extreme one I remember. but apart from that I don't remember details, and I lack irc logs from that months, typoed a command when transferring them to CD 19:40:49 I'm not quite sure where I should FHS-approvably mount "large amount of storage that do not belong to any particular user, but contain data files such as multimediastics". 19:40:51 so no logs from Jan 2009 around any more 19:40:56 AnMaster: kay 19:41:03 if he's around sometime i'd appreciate you asking him or whatever 19:41:08 always nice to know these things :) 19:41:15 fizzie: /aux! :-P 19:41:25 fizzie: also, /var, maybe? 19:41:30 /var/multimediastics/ 19:42:01 gotta admit i'm warya bout getting an i7 since they only came out in nov 08 19:42:03 *wary 19:42:10 ehird, he isn't much any more, irc time went downhill since he started at MIT last year.. 19:42:23 and reached near zero in the beginning of 2009 19:42:24 Definitive proof that MIT is evil. 19:42:29 ehird, agreed. 19:42:35 That was sarcasm :x 19:42:37 I like mit 19:42:49 AnMaster: do you know what his complaint with hyperthreading was? 19:42:53 ehird, I was playing along... thought it was a joke 19:42:59 It's not exactly "variable data files", though. 19:42:59 oh 19:43:00 :P 19:43:07 fizzie: /aux/multimediastics/ 19:43:11 ehird approved. 19:43:21 There's no /aux in FHS, though. 19:43:26 So? :-) 19:43:53 fizzie: Well 19:43:57 fizzie: I think FHS-approved would be: 19:44:01 Create a new group multimediastics 19:44:05 Put it in /home/multimediastics/ 19:44:39 ehird, hm... iirc it was something about two hyperthreading processes he ran ended up cache missing all the time, because they had either half of the cache line each or ended up flushing each other cache lines 19:44:39 There is a group for that, actually, so I guess I could put it in /home/groupname; although it's even more complicated now since it's a CIFS mount from that NAS server. 19:44:41 don't remember which 19:45:07 ehird, anyway it caused poor performance in this app he was writing. So he got much better results with hyper threading disabled 19:45:18 AnMaster: Hmm. I'm listening but it must be noted that the everything else I've heard about i7s is that they're the best thing since sliced Jesus. 19:45:48 what is an i7? 19:46:01 core i7 aka Nehalem 19:46:09 Intel's new CPU arch, since nov 08 19:46:10 ehird, well, he was doing some sort of parallel simulation app at MIT, I guess that may be special needs. 19:46:15 high-end workstationy thingies 19:46:21 At work they seem to be using /m/host/share -style names, and also /m/fs/purpose for the main home/project-dirs. And the university system was even more complicated, with separate physical tree and logical-tree-made-out-of-symlinks. 19:46:24 AnMaster: would make sense 19:46:29 I don't intend to be doing that sort of stuff 19:46:58 The only things I can imagine will even begin to make full use of the massive power is playing gratuitously high-quality HD videos and maybe a few games 19:47:31 anyone used http://banshee-project.org/? looks like a good replacement for itunes 19:47:36 ehird, well he also did say that reponsiveness was lower in normal use, due to pipeline stalls when switching tasks (or something like that), which was why he ended up calling it pentium4 2.0 19:47:52 AnMaster: Hmm. OK. I'll look around. 19:47:57 I had a p4, I know they (especially the latter models) had that issue. 19:48:09 * ehird googles core i7 sucks 19:48:14 ... and finds not much 19:48:25 "haha get the core 2 quad cause the core i7 is more expensive and it sucks. amd is better by the way." 19:48:27 — Yahoo Answers 19:48:38 WHERE THE BEST COMPUTER ADVICE CAN BE FOUND! 19:48:42 ehird, also he said it ran about as hot as a pentium 4 19:48:51 Yes, well, heat isn't an issue, really. 19:49:07 ehird, it is if you want to avoid fans 19:49:53 The fans seem near-silent as far as I can tell. Although yes, the core 2 had that fanless cooler. 19:49:59 http://media.bestofmicro.com/K/3/174387/original/013_pcmark_game.jpg ← That's pretty good. 19:50:20 ehird, meh, my phone has some ARM cpu in it. yet it manages without getting hot at all 19:50:31 AnMaster: wuz the relevance :D 19:50:31 and it can even do some simple 3D games! 19:50:49 ehird, "x86 sucks"? 19:50:55 Well sure 19:50:58 Everyone knows that 19:50:58 (both intel and amd) 19:51:08 ehird, PPC or ARM for the future! 19:51:12 I wish... 19:51:20 AnMaster: If by future you mean no future, then you're right. 19:51:47 ehird, well I think arm will continue to be used in embedded devices for quite some time at least 19:51:51 True. 19:51:54 ppc is more unsure 19:52:22 I guess it will live on for a while in the form of Cell 19:52:23 Fans seem to be pretty silent nowadays, especially when they are big and turn slowly. 19:52:37 fizzie, no fan would be even more silent. 19:52:51 It doesn't really matter if you can't hear it. 19:53:12 fizzie: Mm. Both the setups have a PSU fan, but the i7 has a CPU fan instead of a giant heatsink. I'll look around silentpcreview, probably. 19:53:48 ehird, GPU fans tend to be loud too btw. My GPU fan is much louder than my CPU one certainly 19:53:58 AnMaster: the gfx card is fanless 19:54:01 ah 19:54:05 ehird, what model? 19:54:19 1gb radeon 4850 19:54:24 by the company "Gigabyte" 19:54:28 that is one of those working well under linux? 19:54:34 I believe so. 19:54:36 mhm 19:54:38 it's the highest-end fanless card that endpcnoise offer 19:55:04 ehird, there is an alternative though... That I mentioned before 19:55:12 AnMaster: Huh? 19:55:20 ehird: so you're getting a new computer, then 19:55:38 ais523: Er. Yes. Welcome to ages ago :P 19:55:40 computer in different room, some sort of KVM extender 19:55:47 AnMaster: Well, yes. 19:55:56 any salient features that I haven't seen because you said them before I joined? 19:55:58 Last I looked (admittedly I guess it's been over a year?) ATI's fglrx driver felt equally crummy to Nvidia's (at least as far as using it is concerned, I don't know about technical details), and the radeonhd driver was pretty alpha-quality. 19:56:32 fizzie, nvidia drivers just worked, while I got freezes and such with ati. 19:56:47 was a year or two ago I last used ATI though 19:57:16 of course both vendors drop support for old cards, and a while after that it will break with new kernels. 19:57:47 ais523: Main one under consideration is an intel i7 quad-core 965 "X-TREME!!1111" 3.2ghz, w/ the card I mentioned before, a 10K "velociraptor" 300gb drive for the os, a 7.5k 1tb drive for /home, both in a 100% copper enclosure, 6gb ram, and this case installation: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104470.html#acousti 19:57:55 open drivers strongly preferred, which leaves you with crappy intel on-board graphics 19:58:07 Nothing really earth-shattering; pretty similar to most high-end machines I'd imagine 19:58:13 But still very nice 19:58:24 Seems that radeonhd has gained 2D acceleration support for at least some models. 19:58:28 I generally go for really low-end computers 19:58:38 ehird, what about cooling those drive enclosures? harddrives generate heat too 19:58:45 or I guess they handle it 19:58:55 AnMaster: They have air holes. :-P 19:59:04 * ais523 checks out llvm + clang development sources 19:59:06 And the case has fans built in. 19:59:07 It seems. 19:59:11 From what I can ascertain,. 19:59:13 won't really stop noise 19:59:38 AnMaster: I've looked around a bit, it should dim it quite a bit. Those velociraptors aren't quiet 19:59:48 hm 19:59:57 http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104488.html ← says it has a bunch of tiny fans 20:00:09 ehird, which brand is the "velociraptor"? 20:00:14 AnMaster: western digital 20:00:17 mhm 20:00:57 ehird, hm most of my harrdrives are pretty quiet, but the one from western digital I can easily hear when it is seeking 20:01:10 WDC WD2500JD-00HBB0 btw 20:01:15 ehird: which OS are you planning to use? 20:01:19 ais523: Ubuntu 20:01:37 ehird, why not a rolling release one 20:01:44 wow, the filenames of the llvm source are written in CamelCase 20:01:45 'Cuz ubuntu works well for me. 20:01:50 ais523: it's c++ 20:01:51 that's common 20:01:52 AnMaster: Ubuntu does rolling release too if you want it to 20:01:57 just most people don't 20:02:02 ais523, really 20:02:10 it tends to be rather buggy every now and then, though 20:02:15 ah 20:02:19 because the rolling-release sources aren't as tested as the actual releases 20:02:23 ais523, does this mean tracking unstable or 20:02:26 yes 20:02:29 I see 20:02:29 AnMaster: well, with the GrowUp Japan Full Copper enclosure at the bottom here: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104490.html, plus the case insulation at the bottom here: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104470.html#acousti, and the fact that the case itself is noise-canceling, 20:02:32 I'm on ubuntu-proposed, which is somewhere in between 20:02:34 I doubt I'll hear the drives much 20:02:38 ais523, well I prefer distros that have stable rolling releases 20:02:44 like gentoo, arch linux and so on 20:02:55 -proposed is basically asking for changes a few months before everyone else 20:03:03 I do it so I can find, report and fix bugs 20:03:17 although Ubuntu aren't particularly responsive to bug reports 20:03:25 ehird, "GrowUp Japan Full Copper enclosure" ... silly name 20:03:34 the bug in atd is still there, even though loads of people have reported it and I told Ubuntu what was causing it 20:03:35 Well, the company's called GrowUp Japan. 20:03:39 And it's an enclosure that's fully copper. 20:03:48 ehird, which is a silly name for a company 20:03:51 I think it's nice and descriptive 20:03:53 Oh grow up. 20:03:55 Japan. 20:03:56 hah 20:04:44 ehird, anyway does the case itself act as a big heat sink since it is copper it should conduct heat pretty well 20:04:52 AnMaster: It probably does 20:04:58 Hard drives aren't generally cooled are they...? 20:05:08 they're generally just cooled by case circulation 20:05:12 right 20:05:13 they don't need more than that 20:05:18 what ais523 said 20:05:21 :/ 20:05:27 AnMaster: ? 20:05:37 -!- ais523 has changed nick to backspace. 20:05:37 ais523, I was writing almost the same line but you were faster... 20:05:41 -!- backspace has changed nick to ais523. 20:05:52 someone else's nick... 20:05:55 hehe 20:06:32 I configured an AMD system that's quite cheaper than the intel one 20:06:45 ehird, how many dB is that velicoraptor 20:06:59 Would there be any advantages to a computer system that used balanced ternary? 20:07:06 AnMaster: Don't know dB, but the dBA is 32, compared to the regular HD's 22 20:07:07 ehird, same cpu speed/core count 20:07:11 hm 20:07:22 AnMaster: amd was 3.0 vs 3.2, but yes, same core count 20:07:24 http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104478.html 20:07:25 more info 20:07:39 The AMD one only has 4GB of ram 20:07:47 It's a "Phenom II 940 BLACK EDITION". 20:07:58 Apart from that it's identical to the i7 20:08:11 ehird, I think the drive will still be quite noisy, and it will take a 5.25" drive, so check that you have enough of them for all your drives 20:08:28 which mean two harddrives and one dvd I guess 20:08:28 AnMaster: endpcnoise.com lets you configure an enclosure for each drive 20:08:33 ah 20:08:36 also, no enclosure for the dvd available 20:08:56 anyway, the copper enclosure apparently chops off 4db on average, their site says it chops off more for louder drives 20:09:10 indeed. 20:09:12 I figure that it'll probably end up ~3dBA louder than the other drive 20:09:52 googling suggests the phenom ii is good but slightly slower than the i7 20:10:08 http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/p182.jpg I wanna know what's on top of thatb ox 20:10:19 ßomething to do with the fan controls I guess 20:10:44 ehird, considering the speed and the capacity of the drive I don't think it will last as long. In my experience slower and lower capacity drives are way more durable than the most extreme ones 20:10:45 *something 20:10:55 AnMaster: Yes, there's also a 150GB option. 20:11:06 I had the higher price for dual-booting, but it may be excessive. 20:11:19 AnMaster: A friend has had multiple Raptors in a RAID 5 for, I think, 5 years 20:11:23 and he says they've never failed 20:11:28 I think they were 250gb 20:12:12 hmm, some googling suggests that when i7 gets more performance, it blows everything away, but it has quite a few situations where it performs worse 20:12:23 anything will be a huge upgrade over this core 2 duo 2.2ghz, anyway 20:12:30 ehird, well duh, that is because he uses RAID 5, should he have used a single one it would have failed. Same reason as the action of taking regular backups reduces risk for disk failing (while not taking backups make it much more likely). Closely related to Murphy's law 20:13:03 AnMaster: sarcasm? 20:13:06 /joke 20:13:24 ehird, semi-joke... there is a grain of truth in it though 20:13:58 the universe is out to get you :P 20:14:16 brb 20:14:20 ← 20:14:21 AnMaster: well 20:14:27 I've never, ever backed up my drives in my life 20:14:28 that was quick 20:14:35 and only once have I ever, ever had HD failure of any kind 20:14:40 and that was mainly my fault 20:14:46 my computers usually die of a hd failure 20:14:47 and i didn't lose any valuable data 20:14:48 → 20:14:50 ehird, what is your luck stat? 20:14:54 ← 20:14:57 AnMaster: very low, surprisingly. 20:14:57 → 20:15:00 hah 20:15:04 i've never rolled a 6 20:15:17 oklopol, how many times did you roll dice then 20:15:42 -!- asie[Virus] has joined. 20:15:48 hi 20:15:49 huh 20:15:55 I had a HD failure when I dropped a glass of coca-cola on a computer that otherwise ran quite fine spread out on the floor for a couple of months, since I didn't happen to have a chassis for it. 20:16:01 My PC was pwn'd by Virut.56/Vitro 20:16:05 so i'm typing from my laptop 20:16:07 i'm a yahtzee grandmaster 20:16:11 hopefully it's being fixed 20:16:14 The glass also had a breakage-failure. 20:16:15 (sorry for lag) 20:16:25 asie[Virus], reinstall OS. That's the only safe way. 20:16:30 I already did 20:16:31 and bam 20:16:36 huh... 20:16:38 the virus returned after 10 minutes 20:16:49 asie[Virus], don't start any old apps of course. 20:17:00 I mean clean reinstall 20:17:09 nowadays it's nearly always worms, rather than viruses 20:17:09 AnMaster: I can't get rid of 500GB of data can I? 20:17:10 reformat disk, clean reinstall, run update apps. 20:17:11 Anyway 20:17:17 Dr. Web's cleaning my PC 20:17:22 and it IS removing Virut 20:17:24 viruses only strike if you believe in them 20:17:33 Then I'm going to scan with avast! 20:17:39 and remove the leftover EXE's 20:17:45 AnMaster: clean reinstalls rarely work as well nowadays because the apps assume you're trying to pirate them 20:17:53 ais523, what 20:17:58 but if you know which malware it was, normally just removing it works 20:17:58 WHAT YOU HAVE WINDOWS? LOL WHAT AN UNOS! 20:18:06 oklopol: Oh, right, here -- you can have this 6: ⚅ 20:18:08 * oklopol is a proud ubuntu user now 20:18:15 HAVE I MENTIONED THAT? 20:18:18 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:18:20 WHAT THERE'S NO SONY VEGAS FOR LINUX? LOL WHAT A FAIL! 20:18:21 ais523, isn't it same thing as a rootkit, you can't be sure it is clean without a complete reinstall 20:18:22 ... 20:18:25 wow, you got the Ubuntu attitude really quickly 20:18:28 fizzie: pretty, but i didn't roll it. 20:18:31 AnMaster: rootkits are something different 20:18:35 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 20:18:46 ais523, well virus do have that ability easily on windows 20:18:52 they could install a rootkit 20:18:53 asie[Virus]: what's sony vogue? 20:18:53 well, yes, doesn't mean all of them do it though 20:19:07 oklopol: You can roll your monitor; but do it quick, while it's still on-screen. 20:19:12 AnMaster: The way to get rid of a virus completely is to scan everything on everywhere with 10 antiviruses, and THEN a quick reinstall 20:19:13 also, you can clean a rootkit without a clean reinstall, you just need a second OS 20:19:17 Oklopol: movie editing 20:19:30 ais523: Hopefully Virut fails to work in Safe Mode 20:19:33 so I can scan my PC 20:19:48 asie[Virus]: just look up how that particular virus works 20:19:51 fizzie: actually i'm saving my first 6 for the world championship next month 20:19:53 or probably worm 20:19:54 I found out 20:20:08 In basic terms, it infects every app the PC touches. 20:20:10 oklopol: there's a world Yachtzee championship? 20:20:19 Except Safe Mode 20:20:27 so you can use THAT to scan the PC thoroughly 20:20:28 ais523: yes and i'm going to win it 20:20:29 oh, it is an actual genuine virus? 20:20:37 ais523: Probably 20:20:41 and roll my first 6 as the final blow 20:20:45 It also doesn't steal credit card data 20:20:50 but can go as far as infect logonui 20:20:54 which makes you unable to log in 20:20:59 BAM! 20:21:27 maybe three sixes and have like a cardboard satan rise up behind me and play some serious metal 20:21:30 it's all about the show 20:21:35 woah, it's a ridiculous and pointless virus 20:21:37 yahtzee that is 20:21:41 it hooks the syscalls for creating and opening files 20:21:50 and just infects the resulting file with itself 20:21:58 what's the point? 20:22:01 the best way to run windows if you have to would be to use virtualbox or such to do it 20:22:03 IMO 20:22:21 ais523: It kills every app infected 20:22:24 as in, it can't run 20:22:32 So you know what happens when it infects logonui 20:22:37 or gah, something like hal.dll 20:22:47 Your PC is pwn'd 20:22:52 asie[Virus], why were you logged on with admin rights anyway 20:22:57 and how did you get this virus 20:22:58 ais523: the point of viruses is to exist. 20:23:07 and you know spread 20:23:20 the point of viruses nowadays is normally to make money 20:23:28 I mean atm I do have a shell as root open yes, because I'm upgrading X, but usually I don't 20:23:35 whereas the virus asie's got just trashes the computer 20:23:36 AnMaster: I install too much apps, change too much settings and actually use admin rights for #1 and I don't know for #2. 20:23:45 AnMaster: I don't think I ever open root shells nowadays 20:23:51 ais523: Imagine it hits a big company. 20:23:54 ais523, I'm allergic to sudo. 20:23:55 Just imagine. 20:24:01 ais523: that's just the viruses you hear about, i'm sure most viruses are harmless guys just trying to make a living. 20:24:03 AnMaster: why? 20:24:10 asie[Virus], why didn't your antivirus catch it 20:24:12 i don't see why all the prosecution 20:24:23 AnMaster: Promise you won't laugh? 20:24:23 AnMaster: because none of the big expensive ones catch it yet, it seems 20:24:43 asie[Virus], no I don't promise that 20:24:49 So i'm not telling! 20:24:55 ais523, there have been some security bugs in sudo, in the last few years, none in su though 20:24:55 asie[Virus]: even if AnMaster did, oerjan or someone could logread it 20:25:00 and then come in later and laugh 20:25:08 haha 20:25:21 yeah oerjan is really mean always laughing at people's idiocy. 20:25:23 asie[Virus], I predict it is either because you didn't have an antivirus, or didn't update it 20:25:23 AnMaster: I doubt those security bugs were for using sudo as a su replacement 20:25:27 watch out for that douche 20:25:38 asie[Virus], well, also sudo su - is too long to type 20:25:50 hmm 20:25:53 AnMaster: but I don't use sudo to go to a root shell 20:25:55 AnMaster: The most important thing is that it's being fixed 20:26:00 ais523, and sudo for every command tends to mess up complex bash commands 20:26:07 wait actually i remember a few instances of him laughing at idiocy, but it's very rare 20:26:16 well, i'm going off 20:26:18 AnMaster: if you're sudoing complex bash commands, you're probably sudoing it wrong 20:26:21 see ya tomorrow 20:26:22 i hope 20:26:29 running complicated commands as root is generally a bad idea IMO 20:26:49 ais523, well alternative would do to type it manually. which is more error prone 20:26:53 I use sudo mostly for make install, package manager, recursive chown/chmod 20:27:01 and you can always sudo a shell script 20:27:02 than a for dir in */; do ; done 20:27:13 is that complex? 20:27:14 AnMaster: for dir in */; do sudo ; done 20:27:29 unless you really badly need root privs for the iteration over directories 20:27:36 sudo only what you need to be root 20:27:44 ais523, well permission denied. I was doing this in /var/qmail/queue to fix an issue 20:27:52 a directory I can't read as a normal user 20:27:56 ah 20:28:07 why didn't you su to the user who owns the directory 20:28:09 rather than root? 20:28:34 ais523, because of home=/nonexistant shell=/bin/false of the qmailq user 20:28:36 maybe 20:28:44 AnMaster: that isn't a problem with sudo 20:28:53 ais523, anyway, the issue were wrong permissions on certain subdirs 20:28:55 and you can do it with su 20:29:01 you just need nested su, once to root, once to qmail 20:29:07 ais523, so in fact I couldn't have done that 20:29:08 -!- asie[Virus] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 20:30:22 ais523, anyway I try to minimise number of suid binaries 20:30:40 oh, and sudo + su = one too many? 20:30:46 why don't you replace all your suid binaries with busybox? 20:31:26 (note, this is not a serious suggestion, there would be loads of reasons not to do that) 20:32:17 ais523, passwd, su, unix_chkpwd, Xorg, + some file in /usr/libexec are the only suid binaries on my system. there are a few more non-root sgid such as nethack 20:32:45 and yes X needs suid :( 20:32:51 which sucks IMO 20:32:56 suid root? or suid something else? 20:33:01 I imagine it needs to mess with the graphics drivers 20:33:03 ais523, suid root sadly 20:33:10 it needs to mess with /dev/mem yes 20:33:42 * ais523 wonders vaguely about changing the ownership of /dev/mem 20:34:00 ais523, it sounds like a bad idea, you could potentially crash stuff that way 20:34:10 +iirc it needs to do other stuff too that is low level 20:34:15 like write to /proc/mtrr 20:34:29 which is root only yes 20:34:37 for very good reason 20:34:39 reasons* 20:34:45 You can run XdirectFB as non-root, I think. 20:34:57 For obvious reasons. 20:34:58 fizzie, I need accelerated 3D though 20:35:09 what is /proc/mtrr? 20:35:11 so I'm stuck with nvidia driver 20:35:21 ais523, setting the mtrr registers 20:35:24 it is safe to cat 20:35:28 what's mtrr? 20:35:36 ais523, memory type range register 20:35:40 also, everything in /proc is safe to cat if you aren't root 20:35:59 used to mark some *physical* memory ranges as write combine and suich 20:36:00 such* 20:36:05 There is that PAT thing which is supposed to be a successor of MTRRs. 20:36:27 fizzie, linux uses both iirc 20:36:48 and pat is per-page (virtual page that is) 20:37:47 My hardware knowledge mostly comes from kernel config questions. "CONFIG_X86_PAT: Use PAT attributes to setup page level cache control. PATs are the modern equivalents of MTRRs and are much more flexible than MTRRs." 20:38:02 fizzie, yes added in recent kernels. 20:38:11 2.6.26 or so iirc 20:38:33 fizzie, so not surprising it is still not as widely used 20:38:49 of course even my old pentium 3 actually supports pat... 20:39:04 though it is disabled there due to a CPU errata (erratum??) 20:39:20 something about WC PAT being handled as UC instead 20:39:25 MTRR works correctly on it 20:40:14 Heh, I was wondering why the /proc/mtrr list was so simple (just two entries), but it was that headless server box and not this desktop. 20:40:55 fizzie, what about on the desktop 20:41:03 it is two entries on my desktop too btw 20:41:05 # cat /proc/mtrr 20:41:05 reg00: base=0x00000000 ( 0MB), size=1024MB: write-back, count=1 20:41:05 reg01: base=0x40000000 (1024MB), size= 512MB: write-back, count=1 20:41:06 hm 20:41:56 reg00: base=0x000000000 ( 0MB), size= 2048MB, count=1: write-back 20:41:56 reg01: base=0x080000000 ( 2048MB), size= 1024MB, count=1: write-back 20:41:56 reg02: base=0x0c0000000 ( 3072MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-back 20:41:56 reg03: base=0x0cfe00000 ( 3326MB), size= 2MB, count=1: uncachable 20:41:59 reg04: base=0x100000000 ( 4096MB), size= 512MB, count=1: write-back 20:41:59 reg05: base=0x120000000 ( 4608MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-back 20:42:02 The complicatisms. 20:42:05 hm 20:42:13 reg00: base=0x000000000 ( 0MB), size= 2048MB, count=1: write-back 20:42:14 reg01: base=0x080000000 ( 2048MB), size= 1024MB, count=1: write-back 20:42:14 reg02: base=0x0c0000000 ( 3072MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-back 20:42:14 reg03: base=0x0d0000000 ( 3328MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-combining 20:42:14 reg04: base=0x0e0000000 ( 3584MB), size= 512MB, count=1: uncachable 20:42:16 reg05: base=0x100000000 ( 4096MB), size= 4096MB, count=1: write-back 20:42:18 reg06: base=0x200000000 ( 8192MB), size= 512MB, count=1: write-back 20:42:21 reg07: base=0x220000000 ( 8704MB), size= 256MB, count=1: write-back 20:42:26 Deewiant: A winner is you! 20:42:36 Set up by yours truly as well 20:42:43 * ais523 is confused by asie's virus 20:42:48 MTRR has been nothing but a source of troubles for me 20:42:49 it seems designed just to junk the compuer 20:42:51 *computer 20:43:00 but it doesn't do it all at once, and it only it infects executables 20:43:04 why? 20:44:04 heh 20:44:12 Set up by yours truly as well 20:44:13 why 20:44:23 why would you manually set it up 20:44:25 :/ 20:44:47 AnMaster: See http://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12553 for the whole story, I can't be bothered to reiterate 20:44:54 ok.. 20:45:31 Actually I guess the relevant parts are only in the later comments but anyway 20:46:47 Ooh, is niðavellir your non-ascii hostname? :p 20:46:51 Yep 20:46:57 Ha, exposeded! 20:47:28 Everyone seems to have a quad-core hyper-computar nowadays. Oh, well. 20:47:36 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:47:52 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 20:50:36 oklopol! 20:51:15 Deewiant: that's a weird bug 20:51:40 agreed 20:51:44 very weird 20:51:47 In what way 20:51:54 ais523, seems we finished reading it at about the same time 20:52:06 anmaster, you're nordicish right? 20:52:19 psygnisfive, why 20:52:26 because CLOUDBERRIES 20:52:46 never heard of them. Tell me what it would be in Swedish and I'll try 20:52:53 though I don't much like berries in general 20:53:22 uh 20:53:24 and what would the question about them be 20:53:28 i got it at ikea. 20:53:32 its in jam form 20:53:35 "sylt hjortron" 20:53:43 ah... hjortron 20:53:50 why didn't you say that 20:54:00 and that's rather sour iirc 20:54:59 psygnisfive, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloudberry http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hjortron 20:55:11 because i dont speak swedish 20:55:11 bork bork bork 20:55:11 hjortron = cloudberries? 20:55:22 is not sour D: 20:55:27 psygnisfive, btw "sylt hjortron" sounds very strange... "hjortronsylt" would make much more sense gramatically 20:55:39 well listen 20:55:41 psygnisfive, I think all jam is sour. 20:55:49 so maybe I'm biased 20:56:00 i cant tell why they said sylt hjortron instead of hjortronsylt 20:56:08 its ikea swedish. 20:56:10 whats sylt mean 20:56:43 sylt == jam 20:56:59 i figured. 20:57:00 hmm. 20:57:13 Jam Cloudberry 20:57:24 Fi words for that berry are lakka and hilla, I've never found out why there are two so completely different words for it. 20:57:35 apparently there are a bunch 20:57:37 psygnisfive, doesn't make a lot of sense in English either 20:57:46 nup! 20:57:52 english and swedish are almost identical anyway 20:58:01 Finnish: lakka, suomuurain, hilla, muurain, lintti, valokki, nevamarja 20:58:02 fizzie: Also muurain, valokki 20:58:03 20:25 AnMaster: asie[Virus], well, also sudo su - is too long to type ← sudo -s 20:58:34 psygnisfive, we do have a different word order in questions... 20:58:41 oh? 20:58:55 Yes, lakka and hilla were just my guess for the most common ones. 20:58:59 20:18 asie[Virus]: WHAT THERE'S NO SONY VEGAS FOR LINUX? LOL WHAT A FAIL! 20:59:01 psygnisfive, yes 20:59:02 you're a retard btw 20:59:04 can you give me a statement/question pair, with english words but swedish syntax? 20:59:15 ehird, that was meant to highlight ais523, mistab 20:59:20 20:47 fizzie: Everyone seems to have a quad-core hyper-computar nowadays. Oh, well. ← but of the course! 20:59:23 AnMaster: I said 20:59:24 "sudo -s" 20:59:30 = opens root shell 20:59:35 ehird, still longer :P 20:59:42 alias ss='sudo -s' 20:59:48 Swedish: hjortron (commonly used); multebär, myrbär, snåtterblomma, solbär, snåttren/snattren (locally used) 20:59:50 :o 21:00:11 psygnisfive, well "var heter du?" "what named you?", though that isn't really a good translation either 21:00:20 20:42 ais523: it seems designed just to junk the compuer 21:00:20 20:42 ais523: *computer 21:00:22 20:43 ais523: but it doesn't do it all at once, and it only it infects executables 21:00:23 AnMaster: var? 21:00:24 20:43 ais523: why? 21:00:29 Some people want things to break. 21:00:31 Deewiant, typo 21:00:33 vad* 21:00:39 Deewiant: Also "suomuurain" is just silly. "Swamp-masonrymaker"? 21:00:41 yes, but it could just reformat the hard drive or overwrite with random data or whatever 21:00:46 oh, yes, swedish has V-to-T movement 21:01:22 fizzie: I'm not sure that "masonrymaker" is quite the intended meaning... and it does grow in swamps 21:01:27 psygnisfive, maybe, I don't know the fancy names for it. I just know how to speak it. 21:01:35 you say stuff like 21:01:37 ais523: some people are perverse. 21:01:45 I went not to the store" 21:01:46 right? 21:01:58 I should write a virus sometime, everyone's gotta do that. :P 21:02:00 s/ / / 21:02:06 ehird: it might be to give it a chance to spread, it has a tendency to infect programs that try to remove it from USB sticks 21:02:11 psygnisfive, a direct translation of that sounds ok kind of 21:02:13 im fairly certain swedish is SVO with no V2 properties so 21:02:16 ais523: clever 21:02:21 I went to the store not? 21:02:24 -!- gavv has quit ("EKG2 - It's better than sex!"). 21:02:25 psygnisfive, "jag gick inte till affären" 21:02:39 psygnisfive, hm. that sounds odd 21:02:44 the question you have 21:02:49 i have some respect for virus makers, they're clever folk 21:02:55 wha? 21:03:08 jag gick inte till affären? 21:03:16 psygnisfive, no 21:03:21 oh, jag gick till affären inte? 21:03:26 psygnisfive, " I went to the store not?" <-- translating that straight to Swedish doesn't work 21:03:41 nor does the other one. 21:03:44 i didn't expect it would, to be honest. whats the proper swedish? 21:03:48 "gick jag inte till affären?" 21:03:49 well, the sentence doesn't make sense in English 21:03:54 would be the question, if someone claimed you didn't 21:03:59 but you thought you did 21:04:01 no no not as a question 21:04:05 just as a statement 21:04:16 psygnisfive, as a statement it would be "jag gick inte till affären" 21:04:25 ok good. thats what I expected. 21:04:27 Can't you two just agree on the word order specified at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_grammar#Syntax ? 21:04:34 definitely V-to-T 21:04:40 fizzie 21:04:43 shut up. 21:04:45 psygnisfive, but different in questions sometimes as I said. 21:04:51 we're doing linguistic fieldwork! :| 21:04:59 yeah, ofcourse its different! 21:05:02 fizzie, I certainly can 21:05:08 swedish has V-to-T, english doesnt 21:05:24 psygnisfive, why of course? English doesn't. 21:05:31 and what the hell is V-to-T 21:05:39 vertical-to-transaction 21:05:42 its a kind of head movement 21:05:45 ... 21:05:51 psygnisfive, talk sense. 21:05:52 Verb-to-TenseHead raising 21:05:56 ok look look 21:06:03 you have auxiliary verbs in swedish, right? 21:06:11 say, for future tense? 21:06:30 psygnisfive, no idea. Since I don't know what you mean with "auxiliary verbs" 21:06:36 I don't know all these fancy terms 21:06:38 I will go to the store --> jag en:will en:go till affären 21:06:42 AnMaster: kan, måste, etc. 21:06:57 psygnisfive: jag ska gå till affären 21:07:06 fizzie, like English has "to talk" or such 21:07:08 and in negative its probably 21:07:10 I.e. "yes" 21:07:20 att prata 21:07:47 jag ska inte gȧ till affären 21:07:48 right? 21:08:04 Right! 21:08:04 psygnisfive, that ȧ is not the right char 21:08:05 i dont know how to type the a-ring 21:08:10 å != ȧ 21:08:10 ... 21:08:11 but you get the point 21:08:15 ah 21:08:28 psygnisfive, I don't know how to type the a-dot 21:08:32 copy-pasted 21:08:38 ȧėȯ 21:08:40 im stubborn! 21:08:42 am i right now? 21:08:45 but I guess Deewiant know 21:08:48 knows* 21:08:48 jag ska inte go till affaren? 21:09:08 hahahaa 21:09:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 21:09:13 AnMaster: Well, I know for my keyboard layout :-P 21:09:13 go means something else 21:09:13 :P 21:09:17 shut it! >| 21:09:20 am i right or not? 21:09:22 go is a verb? 21:09:25 no 21:09:31 it's an adjective 21:09:33 Didn't think so 21:09:43 anmaster! >.< 21:09:46 don't know how to translate it 21:09:49 maybe cuddly 21:09:50 AnMaster: Please acknowledge his rightness soon, it'll get noisy otherwise. 21:09:51 or something like that 21:09:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:09:58 jag ska inte ga till affaren << i will not go to the store 21:10:09 psygnisfive, only if your dots got mangled 21:10:15 affären 21:10:18 ok good. 21:10:20 so! 21:10:26 ska is a tense word, a T 21:10:39 psygnisfive, ska == will in this case 21:10:42 and whatever 21:10:47 gå is a verb, a V 21:10:54 so 21:10:57 yeah it's pretty tense you should give it a massage 21:11:00 att gå, to walk 21:11:02 jag T inte V till affären 21:11:08 psygnisfive, go != gå 21:11:13 gå is more specific 21:11:13 what 21:11:15 walk onluy 21:11:18 psygnisfive: looks about right 21:11:18 only* 21:11:18 whatever 21:11:20 So what do you call the word-order flip which happens if you start with an adverb? "today I will not go to the store" -> "I dag ska jag inte gå till affären", not "jag ska" there. 21:11:24 doesnt matter for the example 21:11:32 psygnisfive, you can't "gå by car" like you can "go by car" in English 21:11:33 or so 21:11:38 jag T V till affären --- in the positive 21:11:41 jag T inte V till affären --- in the negative 21:11:50 now, in the past tense, consider: 21:12:14 in fact I can't think of a generic transportation verb like the English "go" in Swedish 21:12:14 jag gick till affären 21:12:15 which is 21:12:20 jag V till affären 21:12:24 and in the negative 21:12:31 jag gick inte till affären 21:12:36 I would use "åka" for bus/car/train/aircraft or whatever 21:12:38 jag V inte till affären 21:12:44 AnMaster: stop being a penisdant, this is not about swedish but linguistics 21:12:50 notice the relative ordering of T, V, and "inte" 21:12:54 in the future tense: 21:12:56 penisdant 21:12:57 T inte V 21:13:00 in the past tense: 21:13:00 oklopol, pedestrian? 21:13:01 V inte 21:13:02 :P 21:13:02 closely related to prostitutes and the presdient 21:13:12 yes it's like pedant but really insulting. 21:13:17 since there is no T, V moves over inte, and sits where T normally would 21:13:21 i'm sure you got that. 21:13:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 21:13:27 make sense, anmaster? 21:13:39 psygnisfive, what, I didn't read what you said. 21:13:47 :P 21:13:47 since some 20 lines or so 21:13:47 psygnisfive: verb is second. 21:13:53 psygnisfive: So what's the linguistic funky-name for the fact that Swedish does "jag ska ..." => "i dag ska jag ...", but English just keeps "I will ..." => "Today I will ...". 21:13:55 that's the general rule 21:14:09 oklopol: actually i dont think it is for swedish 21:14:22 ah. well! 21:14:28 looks like swedish IS verb-second! 21:14:31 psygnisfive: well that's what they teach as a rule, it has a few exceptions. 21:14:40 i don't remember the exceptions tho 21:14:43 fizzie: V2 21:14:56 Great, like the missile. 21:15:00 :P 21:15:06 Verb-Second 21:15:13 V2 word order. 21:15:19 i didnt think swedish has it but i guess it does 21:15:20 fizzie, hah 21:15:27 hmm 21:15:33 so that explains even further why swedish word order is different 21:15:34 psygnisfive, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_grammar#Syntax 21:15:36 and shut up 21:15:38 hush anmaster! 21:15:44 discovering is more fun! 21:15:45 wait actually i'm not sure there were exceptions really 21:15:46 someone else linked it above 21:15:54 "and shut up" 21:15:57 psygnisfive: it gets pretty interesting when you have ...subsentences 21:16:01 nice way to respond to questions, AnMaster 21:16:08 i mean 21:16:15 oklopol: yes, i believe V2 vanishes in relative clauses 21:16:15 ehird, he could just have looked there instead 21:16:17 much easier 21:16:24 god forbid he ask a native feature 21:16:26 speaker 21:16:29 you have have a whole sentence, and after that verb is second considering the subsentence as one word 21:16:30 that can't POSSIBLY have advantages 21:16:39 oh, yes oklopol 21:16:40 ofcourse. 21:16:48 it's "of course" dammit >.< 21:16:56 lies 21:16:56 psygnisfive: of course, yes, i just like it :) 21:17:02 "ofcourse" and "alot"! 21:17:08 recursion at its finest 21:17:19 oklopol, all languages have recursion. :P 21:17:29 V2 word order doesnt highlight this at all. :P 21:17:40 subsentence? Is that inskjutna bisatser? Like "today I went to the lake, which is in Norway, in my red car" where "which is in Norway" would be a inskjuten bisats 21:17:48 or is subsentence something else 21:17:57 it's not a subsentence, i just don't remember the term 21:18:03 perhaps a better example would be something like 21:18:07 because i don't remember any terms atm 21:18:18 because I went to the lake, I got very wet 21:18:25 Also the "inte" part moves elsewhere in those dependent clauses. "..., because I don't go to the store" => "..., eftersom jag inte går till affären". I guess. 21:18:33 or something like "because I went to the lake, got I very wet" 21:18:38 oklopol, all languages have recursion. :P <-- no. There are plently of languages that only have loops through while or for style loops 21:18:42 consider bf for example 21:18:45 psygnisfive: V2 does highlight it. 21:18:46 no recursion 21:18:57 even you should know that psygnisfive! 21:19:06 anmastar: ::smack:: 21:19:11 and of course there are languages with neither 21:19:38 AnMaster: object vs meta. 21:19:38 psygnisfive, well since this is #esoteric we should be doing computer languages really 21:19:46 :P 21:19:52 swedish is pretty computer-y. 21:19:54 AnMaster: even considering both kinds of languages, you're addressing a completely different issue 21:19:55 psygnisfive: the language I was working on as part of my University project was deliberately sub-TC 21:20:00 bf has the kind of recursion we're talking about 21:20:03 in particular, there was no way to express recursion in it 21:20:05 it has a recursive syntax. 21:20:11 The final exam of our Swedish course is rather soon after Easter, and the Swedish word order is something they've been desperately trying to make us grok. 21:20:30 fizzie, do you think it is hard 21:20:35 fizzie: it'd help if you understood some modern syntactic theory :( 21:21:06 ais523: for ef, i decided to do functions for convenience, but made them non-lazy macros, so you'd have to use ef's more interesting features for actual computation 21:21:11 (it's the fixed point language) 21:21:13 because I went to the lake, I got very wet <- wouldn't even have a comma in Swedish: eftersom jag gick till sjön blev jag våt 21:21:20 or wait 21:21:20 i dont claim to know much about swedish syntax -- i forgot swedish was v2! -- but knowing theory is pretty helpful 21:21:29 psygnisfive, eftersom jag gick till sjön blev jag mycket våt 21:21:30 even 21:21:33 missed that "very" 21:21:42 AnMaster: Well, personally I don't really get why the "clausal adverb / negation" part (like "inte", "redan" and so on) has to move so that "jag går inte ..." in a dependent clause turns into "..., eftersom jag inte går". Where's the logic? 21:21:52 anmaster: blev = got? 21:22:00 psygnisfive: became 21:22:02 became 21:22:06 same thing. 21:22:07 so yeah 21:22:11 so yes 21:22:14 exactly the word order you'd espect. 21:22:20 fizzie, err... hm 21:22:52 fizzie, I don't think anyone thought about this properly when they decided upon it. I mean few natural languages make sense when you think about it. 21:23:00 constructed ones may do 21:23:04 :P 21:23:13 swedish is either V2 in the TP domain, or V2 in the CP domain with underlying SVO 21:23:24 i think its V2 in the TP domain. 21:23:27 STOP TALKING ABOUT CP 21:23:31 and missiles. 21:23:33 D: 21:23:34 what 21:23:46 AnMaster: CP=child porn 21:23:46 oklopol, what's wrong with cp file otherfile 21:23:47 ... 21:23:47 anmaster, can you say like 21:24:01 Yes, I guess that's the traditional cop-out. It's just that I'd be perfectly happy with "..., eftersom jag går inte" -- it doesn't sound "oh god that's wrong" to me -- if I didn't happen to know the rule about it changing places. 21:24:03 oh wait hold n 21:24:04 ehird, duh I was misinterpreting in a different way 21:24:09 intentionally of course 21:24:13 jag inte går in lower clauses 21:24:13 ... 21:24:14 hm! 21:24:15 it's hard to tell 21:24:18 interesting 21:24:25 psygnisfive, what 21:24:34 "jag inte går in", where on earth would that make sense 21:24:39 fizzie 21:24:39 AnMaster: Well, personally I don't really get why the "clausal adverb / negation" part (like "inte", "redan" and so on) has to move so that "jag går inte ..." in a dependent clause turns into "..., eftersom jag inte går". Where's the logic? 21:24:40 jag går inte in 21:24:44 fizzie: then maybe you're a noob :) 21:24:48 AnMaster: '"jag inte går" in lower clauses' 21:24:50 21:24 psygnisfive: AnMaster: Well, personally I don't really get why the "clausal adverb / negation" part (like "inte", "redan" and so on) has to move so that "jag går inte ..." in a dependent clause turns into "..., eftersom jag inte går". Where's the logic? 21:24:52 well 21:24:53 example then 21:24:56 that's very un- psygnisfive lik talk 21:24:59 is that a quote 21:25:03 ehird, yes read scrollback 21:25:08 o 21:25:08 fizzie: you should recognize it as a ...sweticizm in finnish people's spech 21:25:10 *speech 21:25:10 ehird, yes. i was quoting fizzie 21:25:15 fizzie, the logic is actually not that inte is moving at all 21:25:18 yeah it seemed fizbanic 21:25:26 but rather that the VERB is moving 21:25:40 therefore you should... 21:25:41 umm 21:25:51 i lost my brain of thought. 21:25:52 sorry. 21:26:00 psygnisfive, example of this in subsentence 21:26:02 Well, that's certainly more logical, moving the verb around. 21:26:05 because I don't know all these fancy words 21:26:07 so I can't answer 21:26:14 21:25 ehird: yeah it seemed fizbanic 21:26:14 specifically, the verb is moving to the position held by the tense head (like the word "will"), most likely, and then that position is moving to the position held by relativizers in the subclauses 21:26:16 but given an example I can provide a "correct" example 21:26:17 appreciate my pun 21:26:27 psygnisfive, ^ 21:26:45 but fizzie, if there is a REAL relativizer in those positions, as we'd expect in the lower clauses, then the verb cant move there, so the position of the verb should be different 21:26:49 just skip all those fancy words if you want any answer 21:26:50 :P 21:26:55 which is actually what we get in all the V2 languages that use that position. 21:27:04 anmaster 21:27:07 "adjective", "noun", "verb" and such I'm fine with 21:27:11 but not all these fancy terms 21:27:15 AnMaster: stop using fancy terms like megabytes 21:27:17 and CPU 21:27:23 to be honest, i'd have to give you a crash course in syntactic theory for it to make complete sense :P 21:27:25 and kernel 21:27:30 ehird, well this is a computer channel, not a linguistics channel 21:27:31 also, i dont have any sentences :D 21:27:36 because i dont speak swedish 21:27:40 psygnisfive: If it helps, adding an auxliary verb makes it go: "..., eftersom jag inte kan gå ..." (..., because I can't go) 21:27:42 AnMaster: the conversation is about linguistics 21:27:44 nor do i know the precise details of swedish V2 21:27:58 psygnisfive, I could translate English ones to idiomatic Swedish ones 21:28:00 Anyway, I know it well enough to pass the exam, I guess that's enough. It's not like I'm perspiring... ahem, aspiring to be a linguist. 21:28:01 fizzie: interesting. 21:28:11 ok fizzie! 21:28:14 i have your answer! 21:28:22 The Answer! 21:28:23 linguistics is sweaty work 21:28:33 psygnisfive: are we Not Going To Like It? 21:28:34 to the universe... 21:28:38 ... life ... 21:28:40 and everything? 21:28:55 that's easy. 42... 21:28:57 AnMaster: thanks me and fizzie hopped on that bandwagon 5 months ago 21:29:09 ehird, which bandwagon... 21:29:16 AnMaster: 21:29:17 21:28 fizzie: The Answer! 21:29:19 fizzie: imagine a sentence has some general positions like this: SpecC C Subj Neg T V ... 21:29:21 21:28 ehird: psygnisfive: are we Not Going To Like It? 21:29:27 ehird: dunno! 21:29:27 h2g2 21:29:48 yes indeed 21:29:53 The Answer! 21:29:55 to the universe... 21:29:57 linguistics is sweaty work 21:29:59 ... life ... 21:29:59 fizzie: C is the clausal relativizers. something like "that" and such. Subj is the subject, Neg is "inte", T is modals and words like "will", V is the verb 21:30:00 psygnisfive: are we Not Going To Like It? 21:30:05 ehird, what do you mean then 21:30:07 ehird, .... 21:30:13 AnMaster: yes but we've established that your net connection is slower than a slow thing 21:30:20 ehird, not much I can do about it 21:30:24 I can't wait to check 21:30:29 because then I would have to wait even more 21:30:29 13:28:22 The Answer! 21:30:29 13:28:23 linguistics is sweaty work 21:30:31 13:28:33 psygnisfive: are we Not Going To Like It? 21:30:33 --clog 21:30:44 ehird, so just accept that my connection is slow instead 21:30:59 AnMaster: no. you should have a live fiber optic link to clog 21:31:01 ehird, complaining about it won't fix it. 21:31:05 yet talk via AnMaster 21:31:20 ehird, if you pay for it... 21:31:24 fizzie: in normal sentences, C is empty, because the clause isnt relativized. so what we do is this: move V to T position if T is empty. move T to C position if C is empty, move Subj to SpecC position if C is empty. 21:32:04 psygnisfive, isn't this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_grammar#Syntax 21:32:10 anmaster: probably not. 21:32:14 ok 21:32:19 so, fizzie, consider: in a past-tense NEGATIVE (because itll show movement) main clause, C is empty. 21:32:22 psygnisfive, have you read the page yet 21:32:31 or did you just ignore everyone who linked it 21:32:40 ignored it because its not going to be in theory :P 21:32:47 psygnisfive, what 21:32:48 psygnisfive: They can also stick a "clausal adverb" like "redan" == en:already to the place where negation normally goes. But okay. 21:33:01 Main Clause 21:33:02 Fundament Main verb Subject (if not fundament) Clausal Adverb/negation Verb (in infinitive or supine) Object Spatial Adverb Temporal Adverb 21:33:02 Subordinate Clause 21:33:02 Conjunction Subject Clausal Adverb/Negation Main Verb Verb (in infinitive or supine) Object Spatial Adverb Temporal Adverb 21:33:03 we can work on that too, dont worry :p 21:33:04 that is what it say 21:33:05 there 21:33:08 you can't avoid it 21:33:50 fizzie: so we have SpecC C=0 Subj=jag Neg=inte T=0 V=gick --> move V to T: SpecC C=0 Subj=jag Neg=inte T=V=gick 21:34:36 fizzie: move T to C: SpecC C=T=V=gick Subj=jag Neg=inte ---> move Subj to SpecC: SpecC=jag C=T=V=gick Neg=inte 21:34:43 Jag gick inte ... 21:34:56 but if theres an over T head you cant move the V to T so you get 21:35:09 jag ska inte gå 21:35:51 if you have an overt clause relativizer, say, "because" 21:36:03 T cant raise to C (and so neither does the subject raise to SpecC) 21:36:05 so you get 21:36:28 SpecC C=eftersom Subj=jag Neg=inte T=ska V=gå 21:36:35 eftersom jaq inte ska gå 21:36:38 Uh.. how did that C=0 .. T=V=gick turn into C=T=V=gick before the Neg part? There is also some sort of T-to-C thing? Right. 21:36:40 jag* 21:37:13 yeah. swedish must have T-to-C with XP-to-SpecC 21:37:36 Jag gick inte ... jag ska inte gå eftersom jaq inte ska gå <-- all correct 21:37:38 I say XP to SpecC because you dont have to actually do Subj-to-SpecC, as in the "today went I ..." examples 21:37:46 anmaster: Hooray! Theory works! :D 21:37:47 (which is all I can contribute with) 21:38:15 I expect that in the Today-to-SpecC examples it'd be 21:38:16 psygnisfive, though the message that you won't walk did get through the first time... 21:38:18 :P 21:38:19 psygnisfive: Okay, a winner is you. Although if it doesn't horribly offend you, I think I'll do it the lazy way in the exam (three different word order templates for the only three different cases we'll encounter -- main clause; main clause starting with adverb or some subordinate clause; or a subordinate clause), because I think I'm more likely to not mess that up. 21:38:27 "today went I not to the store" right anmaster? 21:38:32 err 21:38:43 that sounds like bad English grammar 21:38:45 brb 21:38:51 but in swedish! :P 21:39:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:39:32 fizzie: ok. but now you know, and you can practice for the futuer! infact, i can teach you more about syntactic theory and point you in the direction of some articles that look at swedish syntax. it should help you. 21:40:02 Idag gick jag inte till affären. correct but not how I would say it in casual talk probably 21:40:05 would say something like 21:40:22 "idag va jag inte å handlade" 21:40:34 va being go or something like that? 21:40:37 no 21:40:41 anmaster: Hooray! Theory works! :D <<< theory always works, sometimes the mean reality doesn't work around it, but who cares. 21:40:54 va being spoken-ism for "var" 21:40:56 anmaster: but va is a verb, yes? 21:41:04 and "å" spoken-ism for "och" 21:41:18 if so, then whatever. we dont care about the actual words, we just care about the categories of the words. 21:41:22 psygnisfive, so it means "today I didn't shop" (correct English, non-literal" 21:41:24 and 21:41:45 today was I not and shopped 21:41:45 I think 21:41:49 would be literal translation 21:41:52 yep sounds about right 21:42:02 now explain that with your theories! 21:42:02 the point is, the the word order is XP V Subj Neg ... 21:42:32 which, fizzie, is a case where something else raises to SpecC and the Subj stays low, next to Neg/Inte 21:42:33 psygnisfive: it's "today i was not and shopped" 21:42:33 psygnisfive, you claim you can explain the spoken "today was I not and shopped" (not for written text) 21:42:49 assuming å means och, which i didn't think it does 21:42:50 oklopol, err was I, not I was 21:42:59 AnMaster: oh right 21:43:05 å means just och? 21:43:08 oklopol, yeah 21:43:09 anmaster: in terms of the relevant word order, yes. 21:43:11 I said it was spoken 21:43:13 okay good 21:43:16 I wouldn't write it 21:43:28 in a formal text or even non-formal 21:43:46 oh 21:43:56 i thought it was Deewiant who said å was och 21:44:04 then again i'm not sure he's ever wrong either. 21:44:11 anmaster: eftersom jag inte va å handlade? 21:45:14 psygnisfive: you can't pull of the contractions! 21:45:17 *off 21:45:19 psygnisfive, sounds strange. I would not add those "filler" words "va å" (var och) in that case 21:45:34 you'd use var och in that case? 21:45:38 psygnisfive: note: AnMaster takes his awkward swedish as a matter of pride 21:45:39 no 21:45:39 IIRC 21:45:42 AnMaster: you're kinda missing the point of syntax. 21:45:47 I wouldn't use filler words there 21:45:54 what would you use then 21:46:04 oklopol, I'm talking about idiomatic Swedish in gnereal 21:46:11 AnMaster: yes, my point exactly 21:46:22 psygnisfive, "eftersom jag inte handlade" 21:46:23 probably 21:46:27 even spoken 21:46:28 AnMaster: not saying that's not an interesting topic 21:46:42 "ska du inte ta och handla idag?" <-- asking someone if he/she shouldn't better go and shop. "should you not take and shop today?" is literal translation. 21:46:50 ah well. 21:47:04 psygnisfive, also, "handla" == "act" as well as "shop" 21:47:13 ok. 21:47:19 just to add to confusion :P 21:47:26 it doesnt. 21:47:38 the only thing thats relevant, anmaster, is the categories. not the words. 21:48:19 afk 21:48:21 psygnisfive, meh then why don't you say "the adjective noun adjective" 21:48:26 instead of "the only thing thats relevant" 21:48:27 ;P 21:48:36 I think words are highly relevant to languages 21:48:46 yes, but not to the syntax :) 21:48:50 true 21:48:54 afk 21:48:57 growing tomatoes 21:49:21 ah 21:49:22 The difference in all cases was small, and was due to the significantly smaller sized L2 cache on the processor cores, with each core able to access its own 256 kB of L2 cache. In contrast, the most recent Yorkfields have up to 12 MB of L2 cache. To help compensate, the Core i7 also has a new L3 cache of 8 MB, shared among all four cores, similar to AMD's "Barcelona" processors. This is due to the trend of games making use of more threads, and with hype 21:49:26 r-threading (HT) the Core i7 can scale more than 4x faster, such as in cinebench tests.[25] However, more recent testing done on all clock rates of official hardware with final drivers and BIOS revisions show that Core i7 at the very least beats Yorkfield clock-for-clock, and in most cases exceeds it by an average of about 17%. 21:49:30 that would explain some i7 bad reviews 21:51:38 ehird, small cache? 21:51:55 AnMaster: small L2, but the L3 makes up for it, is the impression I got 21:52:06 ehird, L3 is way slower than L2 though 21:52:11 Hype-threading. 21:52:16 sure 21:52:18 fizzie, :D 21:52:23 ehird: It's way way slower 21:52:42 No chance of doing anything with L3, might as well forget about it 21:52:48 Deewiant: I'm still not convinced it's such a big deal; I kind of doubt Intel would release a high-end processor with shitty cache 21:52:49 ehird, you are talking about maybe 100 cycles on a L2 cache miss but L3 hit 21:53:01 ehird: Think of the cycles 21:53:17 Deewiant: I'll get a core 2 instead if it'll make you happy :-P 21:53:26 Deewiant, if you are trying to be sarcastic you are actually rather close to the truth instead 21:53:36 ehird: It might, since your CPU won't be faster than mine then ;-) 21:53:37 "L3", it says, "is slow. Really slow. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly slow it is. I mean you may think it's a slow walk down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to L3. Listen ..." and so on. 21:53:45 To paraphrase the Guide a bit. 21:53:45 fizzie: :-D 21:54:05 Deewiant: Nehalem has memory access something like 20% faster it said 21:54:08 So I guess that offsets the cache too 21:54:17 Sounds about right 21:54:51 256KB L2 passes that threshold of such a ridiculously low number that they must have thought about it really hard :-P 21:55:41 Every processor has its downsides, anyway 21:56:01 The 3.2ghz speed should do a nice job of papering over a lot of inefficiencies, I imagine 21:56:11 3.15 GHz here 21:56:18 Deewiant: how much RAM? 21:56:22 ehird: 8 21:56:32 Deewiant: Darn, going for 6. 21:56:37 :-P 21:56:43 Deewiant: Uh. Harddrive? 21:56:48 Ooh, 966/1482 AI tournamet matches done. It'll be ready soon. (I'm sure you all find this terribly interesting, but isn't this quite the e/n channel anyway?) 21:56:53 256KB L2 passes that threshold of such a ridiculously low number that they must have thought about it really hard :-P <-- yes... "I think we can pull this off because no one would think we were that stupid without a damn good reason" 21:56:55 yes indeed 21:56:57 they thought hard 21:57:00 ehird: Nothing fast, just a 'plain' 1.5 TB from Seagate 21:57:14 AnMaster: Look I have *some* faith in companies :-P 21:57:21 fizzie: Do you have any tentative statistics? 21:57:29 Deewiant: 10K RPM IN YOUR FACE. Although that's only for the OS HD. 21:57:30 ehird, "no one will notice if this division isn't correct anyway" 21:57:31 or 21:57:35 Deewiant: Just results: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/ai-2009.txt 21:57:39 AnMaster: I think we all learned from the FDIV bug. 21:57:44 Deewiant: My statistics-calculation script expects a full matrix of games. :p 21:57:47 "well this way for user space to lock up the CPU would be nice" 21:57:53 ehird: Well, I would've got an Intel X60 if it weren't for the fact that it would've doubled the price of the whole machine :-P 21:58:02 "and since everyone use DOS or win95 anyway, no one will care" 21:58:03 :P 21:58:08 "intel x60"? 21:58:09 or something like that 21:58:09 fizzie: Meh :-P 21:58:27 ehird: Er, x25. 21:58:33 x60 is the laptop. :-P 21:58:40 ehird, I think it was f00f bug 21:58:42 or something 21:58:52 21:57 AnMaster: ehird, "no one will notice if this division isn't correct anyway" 21:58:58 Deewiant: Time to compete on minor aspects. 21:58:59 fizzie: I'm amused by the number of crashes 21:59:03 Deewiant: WHAT WATTAGE IS YOUR POWER SUPPLY 21:59:08 ehird, well I meant the other one 21:59:10 ehird: 850 WATTS 21:59:12 ehird, iirc something like LOCK CMPXCHG %rax,%rax 21:59:14 err 21:59:17 %eax 21:59:18 Deewiant: FUCK YOU, 800 :-( 21:59:22 ehird: HA HA 21:59:27 Deewiant: HOW FAST IS YOUR DVDRW 21:59:31 ehird: NO FUCKING CLUE 21:59:34 ehird: LET ME CHECK 21:59:37 Deewiant: OKAY, BITCH 21:59:53 Deewiant: One rather new innovation was to give (with the "normalized score" that's at the bottom of that results listing) also the min- and max-scores that are still possible (by losing/winning all the remaining games). 21:59:56 ehird: IT DOESN'T SAY IT ON THE FRONT, I'M GOING TO HAVE A LOOK AT LSPCI 22:00:03 fizzie: HE IS BUSY ARGUING WITH ME 22:00:06 fizzie: PLEASE DO NOT DISTURB 22:00:08 Deewiant: Yes, I think there's a bit more crashes than last year. 22:00:14 ehird: SORRY TO BE DISTURBINK 22:00:37 ehird: FFS I DON'T KNOW, ALL I REMEMBER IS THAT IT'S A NEC ND3520A 22:00:42 fizzie, why the accent 22:00:50 Deewiant: IT WAS PROBABLY NOT SLOWER THAN 22X SO FUCK THAT 22:00:52 ehird: You probably win on that count since it's old, doesn't read DLs for instance 22:01:01 Deewiant: YOU FORGOT CAPS 22:01:09 ehird, any hardware midi 22:01:09 Deewiant: OKAY, HOW BIG IS YOUR MONITOR?!?!? 22:01:12 ehird: Caps only when I'm winning 22:01:16 ehird: 26 INCHES 22:01:17 :-D 22:01:22 Deewiant: That "boar" bot there which has crashed all games has a "move()" method that has the form "do(); stuff(); and(); stuff(); /* something(); */ return null;" 22:01:22 Deewiant: HA! I AM GOING FOR 28-30 22:01:27 MY PENIS^WMONITOR IS LARGER 22:01:30 ehird: OH NOES 22:01:33 ... 22:01:46 Deewiant: HOW MANY ALL COPPER HARD DRIVE ENCLOSURES HAVE YOU GOT 22:01:46 0??? 22:01:48 ehird: BUT IS IT TN, S-IPS, S-PVA, MVA, WAT 22:01:49 I HAVE 2 22:01:55 My monitor is 43 inches, if you just sum the two monitor diagonals together. :p 22:02:00 Deewiant: IT'S BUTTACULAR 22:02:07 Deewiant: HOW MANY FLOPPY DRIVES DO YOU HAVE? 22:02:10 I HAVE 0. LOWER IS BETTER. 22:02:12 ehird: ONE IN THIS MACHINE 22:02:15 DO YOU HAVE NEGATIVE FLOPPY DRIVES? 22:02:15 ehird, ANY HARDWARE MIDI‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽ 22:02:16 ehird: THE MORE THE MERRIER 22:02:28 AnMaster: I DON'T KNOW, JUST A BUILT IN SOUND CARD, WHY DO PEOPLE BUY NON-INTERNAL SOUND CARDS 22:02:32 I DON'T GET IT MAN 22:02:34 APART FROM LIKE AUDIO PEOPLE 22:02:37 ehird: ANYWAY THIS MONITOR IS S-IPS SO IT BEATS ANY TN REGARDLESS OF SIZE 22:02:53 Deewiant: WHAT DBA DOES YOUR POWER SUPPLY RUN AT 22:02:58 A friend bought a catweasel device: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual_Computers_Catweasel 22:03:00 HEYYYYYYYYYYYY 22:03:02 MINE IS 850 WATTS 22:03:03 HA 22:03:04 Re floppy drives, that is. 22:03:05 YOU DIDN'T BEAT M3 22:03:05 ehird: I DON'T HAVE A MEASURING DEVICE 22:03:08 ehird, FAIL!!! I HAVE HARDWARE MIDI ON MY SOUNDBLASTER LIVE PCI CARD! 22:03:20 UM 22:03:20 HM 22:03:22 ehird: DOES YOUR GPU HAVE ONBOARD AUDIO??!1 22:03:34 (TRY SHOUTING HM SOMETIME IT IS HARD) 22:03:43 Deewiant: I DON'T KNOW IT'S A RADEON HD 4850 WHICH I THINK IS AN OKAY SORT OF CARD?? 22:03:50 ehird: IT SUX MINE IS 4870 22:03:57 Deewiant: DEFINE "SUX" 22:04:04 ehird: 'CRAPTASTIC' 22:04:14 Deewiant: ARE YOU BEING SERIOUS OR JUST TRYING TO ELEVATE YOUR OWN MACHINE'S STATUS 22:04:22 "The 4870 is like 20 units better!" 22:04:23 well ATI... sucks yeah 22:04:33 fizzie, units of what 22:04:46 ehird: I AM VERY SERIOUS 22:04:46 AnMaster: Whatever they're using in those numbers. Qubits, maybe. 22:04:47 nvidia geforce 7600. low end yes 22:04:57 Deewiant: in lowercase, is this serious serious? 22:04:57 :<< 22:05:00 fizzie, do you really think so 22:05:12 ehird: Nah, I think it's the next-best thing after 4870. 22:05:15 phew 22:05:15 okay 22:05:17 BACK TO ARGUING 22:05:19 Well, the 7600 is something like over three thousand units better. 22:05:40 fizzie, that's ati vs. geforce though 22:05:40 WAIT YOUR HD IS .5 TERABYTES BIGGER THAN MY DATA ONE 22:05:43 ehird: Checked a bit: 4870, 3870X2, 4850 22:05:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:05:49 that's like inches vs cm 22:05:51 AnMaster: "OpenGL renderer string: GeForce 7600 GT/PCI/SSE2" here. 22:05:55 AND .2 TERABYTES BIGGER THAN MY COMBINED SIZE. 22:05:58 fizzie, what tool 22:06:09 ehird: MY COMPUTER IS .2 TERABYTES BETTER THAN YOURS 22:06:11 AnMaster: glxinfo, in the middle of the messy output. 22:06:12 fizzie, and mine is "GS" 22:06:13 HMMMM 22:06:25 OpenGL renderer string: GeForce 7600 GS/AGP/SSE2 22:06:26 that 22:06:27 maybe 22:06:31 Deewiant: HOW ODD IS YOUR MEMORY IN GIGABYTES? THE NUMERIC SENSE THAT IS 22:06:34 MINE IS 100% ODD 22:06:39 fizzie, yeah I have a low end mobo 22:06:49 ehird: IT IS A POWER OF TWO, HENCE EVEN 22:06:55 HA! 22:06:56 I WIN 22:06:58 HMM 22:06:59 They pale in comparison to the 4870X2. :P 22:07:01 ehird: WAT 22:07:03 fizzie: what was the game? 22:07:08 Deewiant: ODDER IS BETTER 22:07:12 Asztal_: IF YOU PLAY CRYSIS MAYBE 22:07:14 ehird: AHA 22:07:16 oklopol: http://www.niksula.hut.fi/~svirpioj/hierarkia/ 22:07:24 Deewiant: HOW BLACK IS YOUR CASE 22:07:26 Asztal_: Well, I can't think of an app where it'd actually matter, currently. :-P 22:07:27 MINE IS VERY BLACK http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/p182.jpg 22:07:32 ehird: SAME CASE 22:07:33 ehird, err... 3145728 bytes right 22:07:42 Asztal_: Except 3DMark, but that doesn't count. :-P 22:07:42 AnMaster: SCUSE ME? 22:07:42 YOUR MEMORY IS 3145728 BYTES RIGHT 22:07:45 Deewiant: it functions quite well as a heater :D 22:07:49 ehird, yes or no 22:07:51 Deewiant: SAME CASE? HOLY SHIET 22:07:51 Asztal_: Well yeah :-D 22:07:54 NOT SAME PEOPLE I ASSUME 22:07:56 ehird: P182B YES 22:08:00 AnMaster: I SAID IN GIGABYTES 22:08:01 (It's not mine, though, I have a 8800 GTS) 22:08:10 ehird: DO YOU HAVE A CUSTOM-MODDED HEAT SINK ON YOUR GPU? 22:08:19 ehird, IS YOUR RAM 3221225472 BYTES LARGE THEN. YES OR NO 22:08:19 ehird: AS IN YOU HAD TO BREAK PARTS OFF IT TO MAKE IT FIT 22:08:32 Deewiant: WELL, ENDPCNOISE.COM MAY HAVE HAD TO, IT'S THE FIRST ONE HERE http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20012.html ASK THEM 22:08:33 ehird: AND IT CAME IN A SEPARATE BOX FROM A SEPARATE PERSON 22:08:36 BECAUSE THAT IS EVEN 22:08:42 AnMaster: I SAID "IN GIGABYTES" 22:08:44 AnMaster: FOO 22:08:44 AND IT IS BYTES THAT IS IMPORTANT 22:08:48 ehird: THAT IS YOUR CPU NOT YOUR GPU 22:08:54 ehird, THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT 22:08:55 Deewiant: OH I MISREAD 22:08:57 ehird: YOU OBVIOUSLY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT COMPUTERS 22:09:03 I HAVE COFFEE AND IT TASTES GOOD 22:09:03 Deewiant, great line 22:09:05 My case is also black, but it's not as black: http://www.cclonline.com/resize-image.asp?image_id=3008&height=300&width=300&mode=box&bgcolor=ffffff 22:09:08 AnMaster: ALSO, 6GB NOT 3GB 22:09:17 Deewiant: WELL MY GPU IS SO AWESOME THAT IT'S PASSIVELY COOLED, BITCH 22:09:19 ehird, ok but still even 22:09:20 I ALSO FOUND OUT COFFEE IS A GREAT DOG REPELLANT 22:09:32 oklopol, REALLY. PLEASE TELL US MORE 22:09:42 http://www.endpcnoise.com/e/images/gigabyte_4850.jpg 22:09:46 WELL THERE'S PRETTY MUCH NO WAY TO GET A DOG TO LEAVE YOU ALONE USUALLY 22:09:46 "MULTI CORE COOLING TECHNOLOGY" 22:09:48 ehird: MY GPU HAS A CUSTOM HEAT SINK WITH TWO CUSTOM FANS ATTACHED WITH SOME WIRE: 1 + 2 = 3 WHICH IS GREATER THAN 0 SO I WIN 22:09:56 I MEAN IT'LL JUST COME SNOOPERING AGAIN IF YOU PUSH IT AWAY 22:09:56 Deewiant: WELL, ENDPCNOISE.COM MAY HAVE HAD TO, IT'S THE FIRST ONE HERE http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20012.html ASK THEM <-- what a joke 22:10:04 AnMaster: DEFINE "JOKE" 22:10:12 ehird, stupid, crap, insane 22:10:14 BUT, STICK THE COFFEE MUG UNDER ITS NOSIE FOR A WHILE, AND IT'S SLOWLY START BACKING AWAY 22:10:16 AnMaster: IN WHICH SENSE? 22:10:20 I DON'T GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING 22:10:24 ehird, in an upright case that would be very heavy on the mobo 22:10:29 pull a great load 22:10:37 since it is so unbalanaced 22:10:45 I REVERT ONCE AGAIN TO THE "SMARTER PEOPLE THAN ME HAVE USED IT AND LIKED IT" ARGUMENT 22:10:51 ehird: ALSO I HAVE THE NH-U12P SO WE ARE EVEN THERE; IN TOTAL I WIN BY 0.2 TERABYTES PLUS THREE 22:10:59 Deewiant: HOW MUCH DID YOUR COMPUTER COST 22:11:01 IN TOTAL 22:11:04 ehird, ok, but how do you handle the heavy unbalanced load 22:11:06 ehird: MILLIONS AND MILLIONS 22:11:10 AnMaster: I DON'T KNOW LOL 22:11:14 Deewiant: IN REAL MONEY 22:11:29 MY C128 HAS A DUAL-CPU MOS-8502/ZILOG-Z80 ARCHITECTURE WITH A TURBO MODE OF 2 MEGAHERTZ AVAILABLE IF YOU DON'T MIND THE FACT THAT THE VIDEO CHIPSET DOESN'T RUN THAT FAST 22:11:29 oklopol, wow 22:11:29 that's interesting 22:11:36 BACK DESU YO 22:11:39 fizzie, :D 22:11:45 AnMaster: I ARREST YOU FOR NON-CAPSLOCK-COMPLIANCE 22:11:55 ehird, I arrest you for overuse of capslock 22:12:00 and Deewiant too 22:12:02 AnMaster: CRUISE CONTROL → COOL 22:12:06 Deewiant: IN REAL MONEY 22:12:14 ehird, err, what 22:12:21 (I'll be mostly away now, all the shouting is giving me a headache.) 22:12:22 ...has that got to do with computers 22:12:22 ehird: 299 PLUS 244 PLUS 586.3 PLUS 385 PLUS SOMETHING LIKE 100 FOR THE WINCHESTER 22:12:25 AnMaster: CAPS LOCK = CRUSE CONTROL FOR COOL 22:12:34 Deewiant: WHAT CURRENCY IS THIS, EUROS? 22:12:39 ehird, that's a urban myth. 22:12:40 ehird: OF COURSE, YOU SAID REAL MONEY 22:12:43 fizzie, hopefully that helped before 22:12:44 didn't you know 22:12:57 SO £1460 22:13:08 ehird: Including monitor, ofc. 22:13:15 That's the 385. 22:13:19 ehird, it makes you look stoopid. 22:13:32 Deewiant: MINE IS LIKE £1500 MORE IN TOTAL BUT I'M HAVING LIKE A SWEET-ASS MONITOR AND STUFF AND ALSO PAYING A PREMIUM FOR MEGASILENCE 22:13:41 Deewiant, "PLUS SOMETHING LIKE 100 FOR THE WINCHESTER" 22:13:41 (DO NOT SAY ANYTHING LESS MY CONSUMERIST BONE IS INJURED) 22:13:46 *LEST 22:13:49 Deewiant, what winchester 22:13:59 AnMaster: EVERY COMPUTER NEEDS ITS OWN GUN 22:14:02 AnMaster: fi:winsu 22:14:20 Deewiant, windows 22:14:21 maybe 22:14:34 but that makes no sense 22:14:34 no it's a port of su(1) to windows 22:14:35 why would anyone by windows 22:14:39 I don't pay for Windows, what do you take me for ;-D 22:14:51 Deewiant, well you used windows before 22:14:56 Deewiant: HOW MANY OSES DID YOUR COMPUTER COME INSTALLED WITH (LOWER IS BETTER) 22:15:00 AnMaster: YOU CAN OBTAIN SOFTWARE WITHOUT PAYING 22:15:01 ehird: ZERO 22:15:04 I BELIEVE THIS IS WHAT HE WAS IMPLYING 22:15:05 Deewiant: DITTO BITCH 22:15:12 ehird: OR NEGATIVE ONE ACTUALLY BECAUSE THE BIOS IS A BUGGY PIECE OF SHIT 22:15:17 ehird, yes but that wouldn't be very legal 22:15:24 Deewiant: HOW MANY TIMES IS IT INSULATED WITH THIS: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/1104470.html#acousti 22:15:28 AnMaster: LOTS OF THINGS AREN'T 22:15:29 unless it is open source 22:15:35 ehird, thus avoid them. 22:15:40 I DON'T THINK MICROSOFT DESERVES MONEY FOR WINDOWS PER SE 22:15:43 indeed 22:15:48 ehird: ⅕ 22:15:59 ehird, I don't pay for windows, and I don't use it 22:15:59 AND YET WE ARE FORCED INTO ITS USE 22:16:03 I think I've had enough of shouting for now. 22:16:04 BY UNCARING SOFTWARE AND GAMES 22:16:08 Deewiant, same 22:16:13 Deewiant: HOW CAN YOU FIFTH OF AN INSULATE SOMETHING 22:16:17 ehird, err games, you don't need them 22:16:20 ehird: Magic 22:16:25 AnMaster: SOME PEOPLE ENJOY THEM I HEAR 22:16:33 ehird, sure but that is not same as "need" 22:16:36 Deewiant: ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY IT'S INSULATED, BUT WITH SOMETHING ELSE 22:16:44 AnMaster: YOU DON'T "NEED" A COMPUTER. 22:16:50 ehird: It is insulated by the powers of my mind 22:16:51 YOU DON'T "NEED" MUCH AT ALL 22:16:57 Deewiant: OOH SNEAKY 22:17:25 ehird, my case is insulated, with metal. Built into the case even. 22:17:26 :D 22:17:37 Deewiant: I WOULD TOTALLY BEAT YOU BY NOT HAVING A CPU FAN BUT THE I7 MODELS DON'T HAVE THAT OPTION 22:17:50 ehird, and... I have dust filters at the air intakes 22:17:52 do you? 22:17:57 ehird: BTW, those tricool fans or whatever they're called are a bit loud IMHO, I've been thinking of replacing them with Noctuas 22:17:58 what's with all the shouting? 22:18:06 ais523: me and Deewiant having a computer pissing match 22:18:08 TBH I'm not sure whether they or my GPU are making more noise 22:18:11 caps lock is mandatory 22:18:18 Deewiant: Yar, that's a shame 22:18:24 Deewiant: Define a bit loud 22:18:24 oh, in that case my computer is worse than yours, and I'm proud of it 22:18:28 psygnisfive: Sure. I probably should've done some of the language technology courses they have at our university (there's a language technology specification option, which has a pile of courses from the linguistics department of our neighbour university) to be more conversant about the topic, but couldn't fit them in my schedule. (Still not really here.) 22:18:32 ehird: Loudest part of my computer or not 22:18:33 AnMaster: no, because it'll be hot enough anyway 22:18:43 Deewiant: Gee thanks 22:18:49 Deewiant: that is worrying though. 22:18:51 ehird: I don't know. 22:18:58 ehird: According to your standards probably eardrum-breaking 22:18:59 fizzie: i can give you some intros to the topic if you want. 22:19:05 just let me know if you do. 22:19:20 Deewiant: Well, the nopcnoise guys seem to be a lot more obsessed than I, so I'm wondering why they'd recommend a case with loud fans 22:19:31 how did people get on with my Enigma level, by the way? 22:19:33 ehird: Maybe it's just me then. 22:19:35 or did nobody want to try? 22:19:44 ehird, yes but I have a case fan to pull air through instead 22:19:48 ais523: i wanted, i just don't feel like i have the time 22:19:49 AnMaster: so do I. 22:19:53 Deewiant: There is an "extreme" version with a different case, I'll look at that 22:19:59 oklopol: ah, ok 22:20:02 of course, i would've had. 22:20:05 ehird: You can always just remove the fans :-P 22:20:10 it's not a very oklopoly level anyway 22:20:15 Deewiant: Hrm. 22:20:20 Deewiant: Would that cause any problems? 22:20:27 (If not, whtf are they in...) 22:20:30 but i have less and less time for it as time goes by 22:20:48 ais523: explain a bit, i don't have enigma 22:20:54 ehird, overheating I guess 22:20:59 ehird: Well, your stuff will be hotter. Whether it's problematic or not depends on your stuff. 22:21:04 (and i don't read the code) 22:21:08 ehird, you could use water cooling of course. 22:21:15 AnMaster: NO. FUCKING. WAY. 22:21:16 oklopol: basically, you have a black and a white ball 22:21:23 ehird, I understand you there :D 22:21:26 and a few yinyang stones that need changing 22:21:31 but it's obvious what happens to them 22:21:32 I initially didn't have one of the fans in place since some stuff had to be moved around; when it was reattached my hard drives went down by 10 K 22:21:38 however, you only have one yinyang item between the two balls 22:21:44 My friend uses water cooling... it really just doesn't seem worth the effort. 22:21:48 Deewiant: I don't think I have anything high-spec apart from the i7 965 3.2ghz and the fanless 1gb radeon hd 4850 22:21:54 so you have to work out how to get it and the other items you need, like a magic wand over the right, back and forth 22:22:01 Deewiant: Though, that acoustipak thing will probably make it a bit hotter in there. 22:22:20 ehird, go low spec then 22:22:31 AnMaster: No :-) 22:22:31 or noisy in different room 22:22:40 I suggested that several times 22:22:45 It's not an option 22:22:47 This house is tiny, no space 22:22:51 meh 22:22:56 Heck, my desk can't be much longer than 80cm 22:23:02 Or I couldn't move around in my room 22:23:06 Since it'd block a pathway 22:23:07 ehird, put it in your parents bedroom (disconnect reset button first) 22:23:11 :D 22:23:16 Heh. 22:23:31 Anyway, I'd like to get as powerful as possible while being basically silent. 22:23:36 This is difficult 22:23:53 ehird, well, you could go non-x86, those are pretty powerful iirc 22:24:06 Atom! 22:24:06 I don't consider something that doesn' twork with other stuff powerful 22:24:07 not sure about noise level of the last sun work station 22:24:14 Deewiant: Kid. :-P 22:24:24 AnMaster: Aren't Suns generally loud as fuck 22:24:25 ehird: Quiet, I guess :-P 22:24:30 ehird, unknown 22:25:00 ehird, wait for a while and use laberre or whatever the name was for that hyped intel thingy for gpu 22:25:07 larrabee 22:25:10 ah 22:25:14 I don't see myself needing magic gpu powah any time soon 22:25:20 I'm not that parallel of a guy. 22:25:29 err 22:25:39 last line: parse error 22:25:53 CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT! 22:26:10 ehird, ... 22:27:18 Darn, apparently the i7s tend to lead to more noise. 22:27:24 Why does compromise exist 22:28:57 well I can understand they are noisy 22:29:06 ehird, go test the computer in the shop before buying 22:29:11 best way to be sure 22:29:14 There is no "shop". 22:29:25 It's a custom-configured, built-to-ship PC bought from an internet-only company. 22:29:28 ehird, yeah, that is why I tend to avoid shopping over internet 22:29:39 AnMaster: I couldn't get exactly what I want anywhere else 22:30:16 ehird, well, how will you solve this if you need a laptop... 22:30:19 just wondering 22:30:24 AnMaster: Hm? 22:30:35 internet shopping is pretty stupid, i want things *now*, not in a week 22:30:41 ehird, harder with custom components 22:31:00 oklopol, I want to see that they work like I want before I buy, as in test it to see noise level or such 22:31:08 and how the keyboard feels 22:31:36 i don't, i just take a cute one. 22:31:49 Swedish proverb: "köp inte grisen i säcken" (do not buy the pig in the sack). I don't know what the English equivalent would be. 22:32:09 err i should know this 22:32:18 oh? 22:32:43 well know quite a lot of english in theory 22:32:49 Don't buy a pig in a poke 22:33:07 don't poke a pig in a pie 22:33:12 err 22:33:47 Deewiant, what do you mean "in a poke" 22:33:52 isn't "poke" a verb 22:34:04 in english everything is everything. 22:34:08 meh 22:34:14 that explains a lot I guess. 22:34:18 I do not 'mean' anything, I gave you the correct English equivalent of that proverb 22:34:27 ok 22:34:30 In this case, 'poke' means essentially a bag 22:34:41 So it's the same thing, that's just the word used 22:35:18 Deewiant, never heard "poke" in that meaning before.. 22:35:28 FWIW I think it's archaic or very regional at the least 22:35:37 aha 22:35:42 that would explain it 22:35:55 I don't think I've ever witnessed its use outside that phrase 22:37:26 Deewiant: so, about those case fans -- would you recommend taking them out? 22:37:28 I guess not since you haven't 22:37:46 I prefer safety/longevity over complete silence 22:37:53 Might as well use them since they're there 22:37:53 :-) 22:38:00 Yeah, I'm not risking anything. 22:38:28 What I should do some time is boot without the GPU and ponder the noise level 22:39:10 Deewiant: Thing is, if I go with a core 2, the only fan left would be the PSU. But then I'm limited to a core 2 and 4GB of RAM. 22:39:28 Whence the 4 limit? 22:39:44 Deewiant: endpcnoise don't sell more than 4. I could buy 8 seperately. But then I am still limited to Core 2. 22:40:04 Well, of course if you consider Core 2 a limitation :-P 22:40:26 Well, maybe it is nowadays; I bought my machine in November 22:40:29 Compared to an i7? Yes, I would 22:41:02 Dear god, 22:41:11 ehird: I consider the i7 a limitation compared to BlueGene/L 22:41:11 Please make an i7 machine with a fanless cooler and no case fans. 22:41:12 Love, 22:41:13 Elliott 22:41:25 Deewiant: The BlueGene/L is not in my price range. 22:41:37 As the i7 wasn't in mine. :-) 22:42:33 http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=51642 ← Gotta love how he asks if it'll be silent then lists 20 billion fans 22:43:19 Well he can't speak English 22:43:27 He probably meant quiet 22:43:34 :-) 22:43:54 I'm going to sleep now, as I have to wake up in 6ish hours 22:44:02 bye 22:44:07 - > 22:44:25 ehird, how is 4 GB too small 22:44:27 I mean 22:44:31 I manage fine on 1.5 22:44:43 AnMaster: I manage fine with core 2 duo 2.2ghz with 2.5GB of ram 22:44:51 But I'm upgrading, and I've set out to get a high end machin 22:44:51 e 22:44:54 ehird, then why the need for 8 instead of 4 22:44:56 meh 22:45:00 In this context, 4GB is very small compared to the 6/8 I've looked at 22:45:10 ehird, it will be low end in a few years anyway 22:45:12 why bother 22:45:20 AnMaster: No, it'll be mid end in a few years, most likely. 22:45:33 ehird, how do you define "few" 22:45:37 I define it as 5-6 22:45:41 in this case 22:45:42 AnMaster: I meant 3 or so 22:45:45 ah 22:45:52 In 5 years I'll be 18 22:45:56 I can't really predict that far 22:45:57 ehird, oh dear 22:46:02 So it's not worth thinking about 22:46:25 in 5 years I will be 24... oh dear 22:46:35 It's a long time. Half a decade. 22:46:37 yeah I see what you mean 22:46:46 ehird, short in a cosmic perspective 22:46:55 Everything's short in a cosmic perspective 22:47:28 ehird, not really, "time until heat death" is not short 22:47:39 true 22:47:52 it is compared to the time after heat death! 22:47:58 * ehird thinks about non-core-2-vs-i7 things 22:47:59 ehird, "current age of universe" isn't that small either 22:48:02 Like, say, getting a decent 30" monitor. 22:48:08 and kb/mouse. 22:48:13 AnMaster: Sure it is, compared to time until heat death 22:48:26 ehird, I tried a 30" once, I ended up using a single area near the middle of the screen 22:48:33 really it is too large to be very useful 22:48:41 only when editing images do you use the full area 22:48:47 AnMaster: I'm on a 20" right now. It's stifling. 22:48:50 I don't do virtual desktops 22:49:00 ehird, I do that but I only use the first one 22:49:01 :D 22:49:09 get another 20" then :) 22:49:11 well I have some rarely used windows on the second one 22:49:15 Asztal_: The 20" is an iMac 22:49:18 I'm not using an imac as a monitor 22:49:19 Asztal, that is just as bad, I tried it too 22:49:23 That's just sillydiculous 22:49:28 AnMaster: My market is 26-30", really 22:49:35 The main requirement is high DPI. 22:49:43 Must not be lower than about 95, preferably 100+ 22:50:05 ehird, 26" may work, but trust me 30" is just way too big. Go try one in a shop if you want it. Because really it is a waste of money 22:50:19 AnMaster: How many windows do you have open atm? 22:50:33 I have 13 open, most of which are large browser windows. 22:50:34 ehird, a sec 22:50:38 12 22:50:42 How many are large? 22:50:55 wait no, 14, gimp ones group 22:51:03 Anyway, I'm leaning towards 26" 22:51:04 ehird, all of them 22:51:09 Since that gives me high DPI 22:51:14 And I'm also small 22:51:18 and yes they overlap, since I don't use all at once 22:51:22 Don't want to crane my neck 22:51:34 AnMaster: is your monitor widescreen? 22:51:35 ehird, I ended up with a hurting neck on that 30" and I'm tall and large 22:51:52 ehird, this one? no 22:51:56 I tried widescreen too, hate it 22:52:04 Wow, 26" @ 1920x1200 is only 87DPI 22:52:07 end up shaking my head 22:52:14 That's crap 22:52:18 ehird, I might know what you need 22:52:19 a sec 22:52:22 * AnMaster looks for link 22:52:25 AnMaster: I need widescreen :-P 22:52:30 welll 22:52:32 well* 22:52:34 this is high res 22:52:36 let me find it 22:52:49 Is it going to be monochrome or something silly like that 22:52:50 and high dpi 22:52:55 ehird, no colour iirc 22:52:59 Forget it :-) 22:53:07 why 22:53:14 Because I won't use it? :P 22:53:17 it *is* colour 22:53:29 oh 22:53:31 "no colour iirc" 22:53:32 parsed as 22:53:35 "No colour, iirc" 22:53:36 no,* 22:53:36 instead of 22:53:37 sorry 22:53:40 "No, colour, iirc" 22:53:42 Hmm 22:53:49 2048x1536 seems to be the perfect res for a 26" display 22:53:50 98 DPI 22:54:18 Of course, you don't want too big a resolution 22:54:21 ehird, I think the brand was NEC 22:54:23 Or you can't see anything! 22:54:26 can't find the link right now 22:54:35 AnMaster: What size/res, roughly? 22:55:01 ehird, different sizes, from 17-40 iirc or s 22:55:02 so* 22:55:08 My current display is 105DPI 22:55:11 Says http://members.ping.de/~sven/dpi.html 22:55:14 as for DPI huge 22:55:25 AnMaster: Like 1000dpi or something? 22:55:28 I'm not that crazy 22:55:32 ehird, more like 300 22:55:53 Wait, my current dpi is 99 22:56:17 Bah 22:56:23 Why isn't there a good 26" display 22:57:38 -!- psygnisf_ has joined. 22:58:17 Blar 22:58:59 This is all so complicated 22:59:14 ehird, meh can't find it. But it was tall-screen rather than wide-screen iirc. 22:59:21 AnMaster: ah./ 22:59:34 I'm going to play widescreen video 22:59:38 So it really is a must 22:59:41 ehird, and it was insanely priced 22:59:54 I figured 22:59:58 some 10 000 USD or something iirc 23:00:04 I use bitmaps quite a lot 23:00:08 So I don't want too high DPI 23:00:12 100 or so is just perfect for me 23:00:18 ehird, except in the area where you render fonts 23:00:21 idea: 23:00:22 two screens 23:00:26 the one for bitmaps 23:00:32 and the one for text 23:00:32 :D 23:00:33 AnMaster: 100DPI is completely sufficient for rendering fonts smoothl 23:00:34 y 23:00:39 mhm 23:01:01 ehird, what is the resolution of your mouse? 23:01:24 This is a shitty optical mouse 23:01:25 Very low 23:01:30 I will buy a better one when I upgrade 23:01:37 this is a nice optical mouse 23:01:39 some 3000 DPI iirc 23:01:44 or so 23:01:49 I'm an inaccurate pointer 23:01:52 So that's useless to me 23:02:09 ehird, well you have to scale the value in xorg.conf 23:02:24 I never want to touch xorg.conf 23:02:37 Option "Sensitivity" "0.4" 23:02:39 that works well 23:02:40 That is my goal 23:02:44 ehird, meh 23:02:49 you don't normally have to touch any of the config files under Ubuntu 23:02:56 ais523, how boring 23:03:03 how let-me-get-on-with-things 23:03:21 Hmm 23:03:26 So my current display is 100 dpi 23:03:30 most 26"s are 87 dpi 23:03:35 Grr. 23:05:11 Ah, my old display was 86 d[o 23:05:11 dpi 23:05:15 and I could see the pixels easily 23:05:22 So definitely, regular 26"s won't do 23:05:28 AnMaster: Recommend a good monitor company? 23:05:55 System | Preferences | Screen Resolution seems to get better with each version of Ubuntu 23:06:12 all it actually does is rewrite xorg.conf, but it's a lot easier than touching that 23:06:21 yes 23:06:26 ehird, I was happy with my old Samsung for many many years 23:06:29 even better is autodetecting 23:06:31 a syncmaster 23:06:32 and System | Preferences | Mouse lets you set mouse speed pretty easily 23:06:36 ehird: it does autodetect normally 23:06:40 I know 23:06:41 I have used ubuntu ais523 23:06:43 but things like dual monitors you normally need to mess with it 23:06:43 ehird, in the end it died of old age 23:06:48 ehird, modern ones are better 23:07:00 ais523, xorg.conf is easy.., 23:07:03 ...* 23:07:09 AnMaster: it's not neccessary 23:07:11 and shouldn't be 23:07:16 it's bad UI, nothing more, nothing less 23:07:19 internally? fine 23:07:23 as a user interface? no way! 23:07:26 you are crazy 23:07:30 yep, and having it as an internal format makes it easy to back up, etc 23:07:30 no 23:07:33 I'm reasonable 23:07:39 as a user interface, though, it has various problems 23:07:40 why not use a, I don't know... registry or something 23:07:40 you're an ubergeek who doesn't care about usability 23:07:41 internally 23:07:42 :D 23:07:48 for instance, you have to keep resaving and so on every now and then to test your changes 23:07:54 I don't _need_ usability 23:07:57 But I demand it 23:08:01 whereas you just change an option in the Ubuntu GUIs and it starts working 23:08:04 Because it's a smoother system 23:08:07 for me, usability's just a way of doing other things faster 23:08:08 ehird, I find a text config *MORE USABLE* than a confusing GUI 23:08:16 AnMaster: That's why you need a non-confusing GUI 23:08:17 so yes I care about usability 23:08:19 False dichotomy 23:08:24 AnMaster: confusing? Gnome are really insistent about keeping the GUI dumbed down a lot 23:08:29 ehird, show me one that isn't confusing 23:08:29 KDE people laugh at them because of it 23:08:37 AnMaster: anything that isn't KDE 23:08:39 AnMaster: OS X's monitor gui, gnome's, ... 23:08:47 KDE does really get it wrong in this respec 23:08:48 t 23:08:49 Massively 23:08:50 KDE's confusingness is good in a way, but it's the GUI equivalent of a conffile 23:08:51 ais523, KDE is less confusing than Gnome. At least the option is there 23:08:58 with gnome you find there is no option 23:09:01 which is EVEN worse 23:09:01 >_< 23:09:05 well, the screensaver thing is silly, definitely 23:09:06 THAT IS NOT WHAT CONFUSING MEANS 23:09:12 ais523: 'screensaver thing'? 23:09:28 ehird, " with gnome you find there is no option which is EVEN worse [than confusing]" 23:09:37 now stop saying I don't know what confusing is 23:09:41 ehird: Gnome has no option to configure screensavers 23:09:49 ais523: You sure? 23:09:50 and I want a powerful GUI which isn't confusing 23:09:51 Ubuntu does, I think 23:09:52 then maybe 23:09:56 because the person in charge of commits in that part of Gnome has a personal vendetta against it 23:10:00 Screensavers are stupid anyway 23:10:05 ais523: why? 23:10:09 don't know 23:10:19 ais523, I remember seeing an option in gnome for it ages ago. 23:10:25 must have been 2004 or so 23:10:26 yes, they removed it 23:10:29 A far better alternative to screensavers is auto-standbying the displays 23:10:29 ah 23:10:32 and there's no screensaver-configure option on my Gnome atm 23:10:36 All they serve as is annoying eyecandy 23:10:40 ehird: well, my display auto-standbys 23:10:48 my screensaver only displays if I lock the screen 23:10:51 anyway 23:11:00 in which case, the eyecandy is helpful due to the circumstances in which I usually lock 23:11:02 what about powerful non-confusing GUI 23:11:07 I'm waiting ais523 23:11:19 AnMaster: you don't get it 23:11:26 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:11:26 exactly, because it doesn't exist 23:11:29 thus I can't get it 23:11:32 that was my point. 23:11:34 that is not what i meant 23:11:38 while xorg.conf is not confusing 23:11:44 it is easy to understand 23:11:47 AnMaster: do you know what all the settings in it do? 23:11:54 you really are unplugged from reality, AnMaster 23:11:58 can you safely experiment with all the possible values? 23:12:02 ais523, all I use yes. and I know where the docs are. 23:12:10 you need docs? 23:12:11 Documentation is a flaw 23:12:21 as for safe experimenting, I know which ones are bad to touch. 23:12:22 Documentation is a sign that the interface was so unusable that they had to spend paragraphs creating a UI to the UI 23:12:23 documentation is helpful, things that work without documentation are better 23:12:35 ais523, docs are not confusing at least in this case. 23:12:35 Documentation of an interface is grounds for immediate and utter failure 23:12:39 is there an xorg.conf equivalent to visudo? 23:12:46 ehird: I like documentation anyway 23:12:54 personally, my perfect interface does everything I want obviously 23:13:05 Documentation for non-UIs is fine 23:13:06 but I don't mind if it has non-obvious power tools too which aren't needed but speed things up 23:13:09 and those can be documented 23:13:10 ais523, visudo just opens sudoers in a $EDITOR (set to nano for root) and check syntax when you close it 23:13:10 Documentation for UIs is redundancy 23:13:25 AnMaster: no, it copies it first 23:13:29 well true 23:13:34 like crontab -e 23:13:41 http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=itbusiness&type=monitors&subtype=lcd&model_cd=LS24KIEEFV/EDC 23:13:41 but that was implied 23:13:42 ... 23:13:45 This seems like a good monitor 23:13:50 *Contrast Ratio : DC 10000:1 (1000:1) 23:13:53 Nice. 23:13:58 ehird, response time 23:14:02 AnMaster: 5ms 23:14:05 94DPI, too 23:14:08 sounds low 23:14:10 meh 23:14:20 AnMaster: The lowest response I've seen is 3ms 23:14:21 what's yours 23:14:23 also their side take ages to load 23:14:32 ehird, no clue :) 23:14:38 Acer AL2017 23:14:42 it sucks pretty much 23:14:49 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 23:14:51 The contrast-numbers and response-time-numbers have the marketing problem, it's all in how you measure it. 23:14:51 but my old died and I needed a new one fast 23:14:57 so I took the best I could get same day 23:14:58 fizzie: Of course 23:14:59 ehird, ^ 23:15:04 But 1000:1 in any conditions is great 23:15:26 http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/detail/detail.do?group=itbusiness&type=monitors&subtype=lcd&model_cd=LS24EDBLB/EDC 23:15:28 This also looks good 23:15:32 No response time info though 23:15:39 It seems to be for photographers and such 23:15:45 So probably slow response time 23:16:04 6ms. 23:16:10 It's in the full spec. 23:16:15 Asztal_: ah 23:16:19 that's unreasonably high 23:16:19 imo. 23:16:34 hm 23:16:37 I have here this reasonable LG L246WH (24" 1920x1200, I think it's pretty close to 94dpi) and the sideways-up Samsung Syncmaster 910T, which I think is particularly nice. I doubt I'd notice much response-time-related problems since I just keep IRC on this monitor. 23:16:37 syncmaster 23:16:41 I had that before 23:16:43 The other one was 12ms with some "MagicSpeed" supposedly making it 5ms, but I'd be wary. 23:17:01 ehird, I used to have a samsung syncmaster 171B, it rocked, back when 17" was considered huge 23:17:06 I have 16ms and 8ms displays, and it doesn't really bother me 23:17:08 I'll go for LG 23:17:15 AnMaster: I used to have a 14" display @ 1024x768 23:17:17 ROCKIN' 23:17:19 ehird, what about colour matching 23:17:19 I'd be wary of any official numbers; reviews from suitably obsessed people are usually the way to go. 23:17:30 ehird, the syncmaster was pretty good at that 23:17:36 good colours I mean 23:17:38 AnMaster: Doesn't matter to me :-) 23:17:41 Well 23:17:42 I want good colours 23:17:45 but I'm not obsessed 23:17:47 I'm no photographer 23:17:48 ehird, that's way more important than typography! 23:17:53 I want an ICC PROFILE! 23:18:15 fizzie: lg's site has no 246? 23:18:23 AnMaster: Typography is more beautiful than any photo. :) 23:18:26 * ehird *war! war!* 23:18:35 In the CRT days I had a syncmaster 959nf, which was the greatness. Chosen mostly because it had BNC connectors for input and supported sync-on-green for that, so it was easy to hook the sparcstation to it... but it was still great. 23:18:39 ehird, a photo can say more than 1000 fonts 23:19:00 AnMaster: A typographical piece can express more precisely than any photo. 23:19:01 is that the English form of that idiom 23:19:05 yes 23:19:15 ehird: http://uk.lge.com/products/model/detail/widescreen_l246wh.jhtml 23:19:32 2000:1 contrast, ey? Even if that's just bullshitting, that's some balls. 23:19:49 ehird, ever heard of a shock text? Heard of shock photos. I think the photo clearly wins. 23:19:52 Well, didn't that Samsung say 10000:1. :p 23:19:59 AnMaster: Text can be shocking for sure. 23:20:05 fizzie: It then clarified, saying 1000:1 :D 23:20:21 ehird, that is true. But it won't give as strong emotions. 23:20:24 fizzie: That thing looks great 23:20:25 to the reader/viewer 23:20:28 I hope you don't mind if I buy it 23:20:36 As long as you don't steal this one. 23:20:43 AnMaster: You can't make something as ugly as shock images with typography. 23:20:46 That's an advantage. 23:21:08 ehird, Arial 23:21:10 yes you can 23:21:24 AnMaster: You just proved your own point wrong, then 23:21:26 * AnMaster forces ehird to use Arial instead of Helvetica for everything 23:21:39 I saw a tshirt saying "Helvetica" in Arial and another in Comic Sans 23:21:42 One minor point I don't like with this L246WH is that it has just D-SUB+HDMI; most (well, at least many) include the whole D-SUB+DVI+HDMI triplet. I have this other older desktop box I occasionally boot, and now I've had to connect that with the VGA cable since there's only one digital input, and I don't really want to buy an HDMI switch-box just because. 23:21:42 They were beautiful 23:21:46 ehird, wow 23:21:52 that's crazy 23:22:16 ehird, Tahoma (sp?) 23:22:28 AnMaster: there was another in book antiqua which had a disclaimer saying the makers aren't responsible if you get beaten up for wearing it :-) 23:22:41 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Connection timed out). 23:22:41 ehird, link 23:22:47 AnMaster: Can't find atm 23:22:49 meh 23:23:55 http://uk.lge.com/products/model/detail/widescreen_w2452t.jhtml This looks nice too, I dunno what that DFC contrast-fucking is though 23:24:48 fizzie: any complaints about the l246wh? 23:24:49 it looks nice 23:25:30 Just the one I said up there about connectors. Well, and the control buttons aren't the best I've seen, but it's not really very often I touch 'em. 23:25:51 fizzie: oh, no DVI? 23:25:56 Dunno if the box I'm getting has hdmi 23:26:05 Well, it comes with a DVI-HDMI cable, I think. 23:26:22 At least I don't recall getting one separately. 23:26:29 http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/more_info/20010.html Nothing hdmi-y here. 23:27:09 hm 23:27:12 nothing about dvi either 23:27:36 "However, the audio and remote-control features of HDMI will not be available" 23:27:39 oH nOeS!!! 23:27:53 fizzie: What are unnice about the buttonies? 23:28:03 according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vector_Video_Standards2.svg my monitor is SXGA+ 23:28:06 heh 23:28:26 WSXGA+ here 23:28:35 and will be WUXGA 23:28:38 They are on the underside of the monitor border, it just feels a bit unnatural. Very non-intrusive too, of course. 23:29:36 ehird, where are the buttons on mac monitors? 23:29:42 such as that imac 23:29:42 I pretty much picked this one because the previous monitor was also a LG (L2000C, a 20" 1600x1200 4:3 one). And I actually liked the Samsung 20" I *ordered* (rather similar specs, except it had composite/s-video inputs too) but the first two had dead pixels, and by the time the store had managed to process the return of the second one (the whole process took *months*) Samsung had stopped manufacturing that model, so I just switched to a close equivalent. 23:29:49 -!- Sgeo has quit (Connection timed out). 23:30:11 AnMaster: Apple logo, go to the left, flip over to the back 23:30:14 Your power button's there 23:30:17 There are no other buttons 23:30:39 ehird, heh 23:30:48 ehird, power button on the back-side? 23:30:56 Right. How often do you press it? :P 23:31:14 ehird, which imac model is this? screen on ball or? 23:31:36 wait no, that's older 23:31:42 This one: 23:31:51 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/IMac_transparency.png 23:31:52 If your display card will be that GV-R485MC-1GH ("Gigabyte Radeon HD 4850 1GB") it seems to be a 2*DVI card, but also include one DVI-to-HDMI adapter. 23:31:58 why do macs need a separate on button? 23:32:01 http://www.mccullagh.org/db9/1ds-5/intel-imac-at-macworld.jpg 23:32:06 they should ship from the factory on, and never turn off, just hibernate 23:32:08 http://www.dean.clas.uconn.edu/csg/images/guidelines/intel_imac.jpg 23:32:09 ehird, is the height adjustable 23:32:20 AnMaster: No, but you can tilt the display 23:32:27 I need some books below my current monitor to get it high enough 23:32:27 ais523: I would have no problem with that 23:32:30 and that really sucks 23:32:31 Well 23:32:33 really really sucks 23:32:39 a power button is needed in emergency cases 23:32:49 AnMaster: Heh I'm getting a height-adjustable desk just to get the monitor low enough 23:33:06 ehird, well samsung had good foot, high and higher 23:33:13 a good foot* 23:33:18 If you ever see me in person you probably won't notice I'm there until you look down 23:33:25 how tall are you? 23:33:31 ehird, well you will have to look up quite a bit 23:33:34 ais523: didn't we go over this yesterday 23:33:34 * Sgeo_ is short 23:33:38 lemme look 23:33:42 ais523, 187 or 188 cm, forgot which 23:34:11 tallest in family too, about 3 cm taller than dad and 5 cm taller than mom 23:34:15 :) 23:34:20 he's talking about me... isn;'t he 23:34:29 I seem to recall that my performa 52xx powermac (a *really* messed up piece of hardware -- #1 in the top-12 worst macs list -- just see the short intro at http://lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml or something) still had a power button in the ADB keyboard. 23:34:31 ehird, he didn't direct the question at any nick 23:34:35 so I don't know 23:34:56 16:20:07 ← I am 146cm = 4 feet 9 inches. And 32kg. 23:35:00 ais523: there you go 23:35:10 fizzie, no picture there 23:35:15 it seems 23:35:27 ehird: wow, that is short 23:35:30 ehird, what's up with that random garbage 23:35:33 AnMaster: http://lowendmac.com/ppc/performa-5200.html has a tiny picture. 23:35:36 whereas AnMaster's about 8 feet tall, from what I hear 23:35:39 AnMaster: clog's mangling of ← 23:35:49 ais523, I don't know. I'm using metric. 23:35:54 ais523: 8 feet? Err... isn't that like, tallest man in the world scale? 23:36:01 188 centimeters = 6.167979 feet 23:36:02 ais523, and around 82 or 83 kg iirc 23:36:03 Says google 23:36:09 ehird: almost certainly above tallest man in the world scale 23:36:09 But yes, wow, I am short. 23:36:18 oh it was a joke 23:36:18 :P 23:36:21 AnMaster: 1 metre = 39 inches, you can work it out from there 23:36:46 fizzie, my dad had a 5600 iirc, looked almost the same 23:36:50 Like I said, first words of two longtime internetfriends I met in August: "You're shorter than I expected." 23:37:15 "Oh yeah? Well you're stupider than I expected!" 23:37:22 fizzie I don't remember exact model 23:37:24 AnMaster: I don't remember the exact model, I don't think it was 5200 but some 52?0 instead. I don't have it any more, sold it to someone to save space. :p 23:37:25 lament: osnap 23:37:32 No I was too busy being shy for the first 15 minutes :P 23:38:11 you 23:38:12 meet 23:38:16 internet friends 23:38:17 in real life 23:38:22 that's fucked up 23:38:33 Seeing friends IRL. 23:38:36 Gosh, how fucked up. 23:38:39 ehird, yeah 23:38:42 but internet ones 23:38:47 how do you dare do it 23:38:53 It's well known that 90% of people on the internet are pedophiles. 23:39:01 The other 10% are ephebophiles. 23:39:36 I prefer the standard backronym for the alt hierarchy on usenet 23:39:45 it's apparently full of anarchists, lunatics, and terrorists 23:39:51 :-D 23:39:56 I think I classify myself as a lunatic, in that classification 23:40:10 but I think that classification generalises to the whole internet 23:40:22 AnMaster: so, care to clarify? 23:40:31 what? 23:40:44 * AnMaster is listening to radio 23:41:04 ah 23:41:12 I'd go for same category as ais523 23:41:25 i meant the previous stuff 23:41:35 which 23:41:48 23:38 AnMaster: that's fucked up 23:42:13 ehird, yeah, you don't know how the person would be IRL 23:42:25 I've known them very well since 2006. 23:42:35 knowing you are so small I wouldn't be scared meeting you IRL but even so... 23:43:28 If they're secretly murder-rapists, they did a very successful job of creating a fake online identity stretching back years and gaining so many connections and meeting with others I knew. I'm flattered they'd go to so much effort to kill me. 23:44:20 well indeed, you aren't important enough 23:44:46 Clearly our meeting was just furthering their plan to abduct and murder the helpless child known as Barack Obama. 23:45:50 I've met up with people I barely knew in RL.. although I had a major crush on her 7 years ago 23:46:00 ehird, that's a bit too late now 23:46:12 AnMaster: THEY ARE TOO DEDICATED TO LET AGE GET IN THE WAY 23:46:33 yay online crush 23:46:36 I've met up with internet friends. Except one of them did actually like young girls. And got jailed for it. :| 23:46:43 ehird, no it's because you are wrong. They are out to get Obama's grand child 23:46:46 Asztal_++ would read again 23:46:50 (or whatever you call it) 23:46:55 ehird, as of yet unborn 23:47:08 AnMaster: They will convince it to meet them while it's still in the womb. 23:47:12 Then abduct and kill it. 23:47:15 Without it leaving the womb. 23:47:21 They are *incredibly* crafty. 23:47:25 indeed 23:48:28 they should ship from the factory on, and never turn off, just hibernate <<< or be on when plugged in 23:48:46 well, in practice you need a way to turn it on if the battery runs out 23:48:46 Meeting you people could be a horrible disappointment, in that it might actually turn out that you are all just sort-of regularly human and so on. Although I guess that has a rather low probability in at least oklopol's case. 23:48:51 in theory, just give it a perfect battery 23:49:16 fizzie: these people turned out to be exactly the same as online :-P 23:49:22 oklopol, which "they" 23:49:34 I did not anticipate chipping a tooth and losing my ticket, though. 23:49:54 (I walked into the glass covering a museum display without realising it was there. *Bam*) 23:51:02 * ais523 reads up on the virus asie caught 23:51:08 ais523, heh 23:51:11 it's ridiculous, it's an actual virus rather than a worm 23:51:16 and it infects all sorts of file formats 23:51:19 including ASP and HTML 23:51:21 ais523, how does it spread 23:51:31 AnMaster: from file to file, the same way other viruses do 23:51:33 AnMaster: it doesn't 23:51:36 meh 23:51:39 if a file containing it is copied and run, then the copy spreads 23:51:51 it's mostly spreading through illegal executables 23:51:51 i should write a virus that installs ubuntu and makes it look vaguely like windows 23:51:53 security model fail 23:51:57 and renames apps to their windows equivalents 23:51:58 Ooh, a retrovirus! *punnity* 23:52:04 fizzie, :D 23:52:16 ehird: don't, it would still be illegal 23:52:34 besides, it would lead to even more GPL FUD 23:52:42 ais523: I would just advertise it as computer speederupperer and put it all in the small print that nobody reads 23:52:55 And what happens when users discover that their Windows-only programs that don't work in WINE and have no Linux equivelent are missing? 23:52:59 even so, it's debatable whether EULAs are enforcable 23:53:07 8 feet tall is not tallest man in the world scale 23:53:10 Sgeo_: That's their problem :P 23:53:12 tallest man was 279 iirc 23:53:15 Sgeo_: people with those sort of programs normally don't catch viruses 23:53:17 oklopol: what, feet? 23:53:20 tallest soldier finnish 259 iirc 23:53:22 cm 23:53:26 279 feet 23:53:31 no feet 23:53:34 i'm sure it's fet 23:53:35 *feet 23:53:52 oklopol: Is this about: "Väinö Myllyrinne – Tallest Finn, standing 8'1" (247 cm). Myllyrinne was born in 1909 and died April 13, 1963." Or something else? 23:53:53 ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wadlow 23:53:55 8 feet 23:53:57 tallest person evar 23:53:57 or 251... 23:54:00 oh read 23:54:06 ais523, so using Active Worlds or Allegiance is a good indication of computer savviness? 23:54:13 fizzie: yes, and i see i misrememberized the number 23:54:19 the only justification anyone's thought up for Virut is that it's designed to make Windows look bad to force up Mac and Linux sales 23:54:30 Sgeo_: I've never heard of them 23:54:34 linux sales? 23:54:37 do they work under Cedega or Crossover? 23:54:41 activeworlds.com freeallegiance.org 23:54:42 which is quite sad considering it's only like 10 years since i remembered pretty much the whole guinness world records 1993 book 23:54:46 ehird: yep, maybe they're NOVELL SABOTEURS 23:54:53 ais523, I'd bet that Alleg doesn't work under Cedega, no clue about AW 23:55:05 Sgeo_: vm foo 23:55:06 of course i didn't actually know how to memorize back then, i just read it a lot. 23:55:28 ehird, you'd include a copy of MS Windows in a Windows destroying virus? 23:55:37 no 23:55:39 i was talking about you 23:55:43 Sgeo_: yes, so Microsoft end up suing all their customers for pirating windows 23:55:45 have to check the 279 too 23:55:51 that would be hilarious 23:55:59 :D 23:56:30 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:56:36 yeah that was wrong too 23:56:38 :| 23:56:41 "Security researcher Jack Louis, who had discovered several serious security flaws in TCP software was killed in a fire on the ides of March, dealing a blow to efforts to repair the problem." 23:56:42 -Slashdot 23:56:53 OR WAS IT A CONSPIRACY ? ?? 23:56:55 grr 23:57:03 and most of the people on the article were just laughing at it, rather than mourning that someone died 23:57:28 I went and moderated up the people who were telling people not to laugh at it 23:57:40 because I was a Slashdot moderator a few minutes ago, although I'm not any more 23:57:41 Some people want their death to be greeted with laughter 23:57:50 Slashdot makes people moderators at random 23:57:52 and it doesn't last very long 23:57:59 :D 23:58:12 ehird, the Python guy, right? 23:58:23 oklopol: what's the :D at? 23:58:24 guido van rossum? :D 23:58:32 ais523: sd 23:58:50 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsHk9WC7fnQ (NSFW language) 23:59:02 oklopol: well, it doesn't work awfully, although it tends to lead to groupthink 23:59:29 yeah makes sense it would 23:59:33 *-