00:00:09 i hate most group activities that have a purpose 00:00:10 you're supposed to moderate things up if you agree to them, and reply if you disagree 00:00:10 "Security researcher Jack Louis, who had discovered several serious security flaws in TCP software was killed in a fire on the ides of March, dealing a blow to efforts to repair the problem." <-- link 00:00:15 http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1192793&cid=27509683 funny; shouldn't be 00:00:15 downmods are only used against trolls, in theory 00:00:23 AnMaster: http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/08/2010223 00:00:24 in practice people downmod things they disagree with anyway 00:04:00 hm 00:04:19 so is this fixed in linux yet? 00:04:26 no 00:04:35 and the details are not released? 00:04:39 mhm 00:05:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:08:14 ehird, once linux fixes it it will be released in practise though... 00:13:02 fizzie: okay hierarchy looks quite interesting 00:13:35 the "a bit like chess" thing seems a bit far-fetched tho 00:14:01 i mean except for the fact the "pawns" can move twice on first turn :P 00:14:12 i guess that's kinda significant tho 00:16:09 oklopol, link to this game? 00:16:26 http://www.niksula.hut.fi/~svirpioj/hierarkia/rules_en.html 00:16:48 kinda bad english, hard to read imo 00:25:53 fizzie: that sounds like a very un-AI-zable game 00:26:54 lotsa choices 00:27:11 of course i don't really know how games would go, so i can only guess 01:00:14 night 01:05:04 http://hof.povray.org/ 01:07:23 sgeo_ what about povray 01:07:30 oklopol! 01:07:35 wanna make an AIbotthing? 01:07:37 psygnisf_, there are beautiful images 01:08:14 Sgeo_: very true. have you seen cgsociety's forums? 01:08:23 http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=121 01:08:25 psygnisf_, no I haven't 01:08:34 thats their 3d choice forum 01:08:44 http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=137 01:08:46 2d choice 01:09:22 Not enough outdoorsy or smooth stuff in the 3d stuff 01:09:54 true enough. 01:10:25 Although I found a nice NSFW image >.> 01:10:34 oh? 01:11:31 And another that looks like a photo 01:11:39 -!- olsner has joined. 01:11:41 links to what you like. 01:11:45 oklopol: 01:12:37 ooooooooo 01:12:49 we should work on a chat bot. 01:13:11 that utilizes some theory of grammar and semantics, plus maybe even pragmatics. 01:13:20 which lang? 01:13:34 proglang or natlang? 01:13:44 no whichlang 01:13:56 which lang for what 01:14:04 well natlang or conlang. 01:14:12 just a chatbot. 01:14:18 for english. i guess. 01:14:23 right okay 01:14:47 well umm i've always wanted to try that, sure 01:14:51 cool. 01:15:06 i guess ill have to teach you some linguistics then :p 01:15:14 but i don't really have that much free time, except for my idle time on irc, it's 3:24 and i'm reading electronics........................ 01:15:22 bah. nevermind then! 01:15:29 :D 01:15:35 summer is soon! 01:16:16 and i only have like 4 exams in the summer. 01:17:59 easy leisurely exams i'm probably going to do standing on my head for shock value., 01:18:16 *-, 01:19:37 afk 01:19:53 good pie 01:25:01 -!- GregorR_ has joined. 01:25:39 -!- GregorR has quit (Nick collision from services.). 01:25:49 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR. 01:26:59 -!- psygnisf_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:27:02 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:39:20 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW"). 01:49:29 ,,, 01:49:35 *-,,, 02:05:54 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 02:19:57 back :D 03:26:47 -!- Asztal_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:28:10 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:28:35 I have a idea, which is, making Magic: the Gathering cards based on esoteric programming. 03:28:47 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 03:28:48 I have made cards with similar effects to SWAP command in CLC-INTERCAL 03:29:44 I have made a card that says "Swap the meaning of Flying and Trample." 03:29:48 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:31:43 Can you do something like, to check with greater probability that a quantum state is not very close to a particular state, to multiply the state by something like [1,0;0,40000000] is that possible? 03:33:14 I will be awaiting answer to all these things, please. 03:33:37 -!- zzo38 has quit. 03:59:57 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:44:59 -!- kerlo has changed nick to ihope. 04:45:05 -!- ihope has changed nick to kerlo. 05:24:56 -!- neldoreth has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 05:25:09 -!- calamari has joined. 07:02:27 AnMaster: Yes, it's supposed to be a bit more difficult than chess, due to the larger branching factor. 07:02:35 Er, s/AnMaster/oklopol/ 07:02:40 "Just a typo." 07:08:42 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:19:12 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 07:20:33 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:23:41 yeah oerjan is really mean always laughing at people's idiocy. 07:23:48 bwahaha what a stupid idea 07:27:36 in practice people downmod things they disagree with anyway 07:28:16 i recall not too long ago reading a suggestion (or maybe it was actually applied somewhere) to have downmods lose a little bit of karma for the downmodder 07:28:31 so you would only do it when you really cared 07:28:50 that would only work if karma mattered. 07:29:06 well, and if your karma gets too low you cannot downmod at all 07:29:27 hm! 07:29:29 how would your karma go up? 07:29:33 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:29:51 i don't quite recall but by being upmodded by others presumably... 07:30:01 hmm! 07:35:17 Can you do something like, to check with greater probability that a quantum state is not very close to a particular state, to multiply the state by something like [1,0;0,40000000] is that possible? 07:35:25 nope, that matrix is not unitary 07:36:37 all the things you can do with just 1 bit are more like rotations than like scalings, i think 07:39:48 unitary: all the row (equivalently, column) vectors in the matrix must have length 1 and be pairwise orthogonal 07:41:13 (as complex vectors, so you need to use conjugation in the scalar product) 07:41:19 iirc 07:41:52 I have made a card that says "Swap the meaning of Flying and Trample." 07:42:15 this could be the unholy child of Magic and Smetana/Smatiny... 07:44:54 -!- calamari has joined. 07:50:07 -!- neldoreth has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:28:18 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 08:34:16 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:05:33 oooooooooooooooooooooo 09:05:57 qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq 09:06:57 touche :\ 09:07:25 didn't see that coming 09:07:37 zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz 09:07:37 yyyyyyyyyyyyyy 09:07:47 fnfnfnfnfnfnfnfnfnfn 09:08:25 wait, fn? is that from the New Edition? 09:09:40 well need to brösh my töth. 09:09:41 -> 09:09:43 fhtagnfhtagnfhtagnfhtagnfhtagn 09:09:49 ^ really Old Edition 09:10:01 *Really 09:10:16 ORLY? 09:12:07 ANALLY ACTUALLY 09:12:19 new song in my head: "glio the safety conservative" 09:12:28 i think it's from one of my dreams 09:12:28 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:12:29 * oerjan swats psygnisfive. but not there. -----### 09:12:54 well i wouldnt want you to swap my anus anyway. 09:12:58 that would be weird! 09:13:02 oklopol is clearly learning italian in his dreams. 09:13:30 while i, on the other hand, am learning italian on tuesdays and thursdays from 5:20p to 8:00p 09:14:08 err hmm kinda confusing dream, we were looking for some missing child, and when she was finally found, i was really disappointed 8| 09:14:27 thats because you were the person who kidnapped her. 09:14:29 yeah, those kids are so hard to get rid of 09:14:34 ...maybe i enjoyed the group effort 09:14:41 oerjan: <3 09:14:45 hmm 09:14:54 how horrible that we have such similar, sick ideas 09:14:55 :D 09:14:58 yeah your answers are more probable 09:15:27 oklopol, didnt you once date a 13 year old or something like that? 09:15:31 that dude'll hit on anything that starts with an o 09:15:53 psygnisfive: yes; but when i was 11 dated an 11-year-old 09:15:59 *i 09:16:18 yes but werent you like .. however old you are now minus a year or two when you were dating this 13 year old? :P 09:16:35 im pretty sure it was may december there! 09:16:49 one of the 11-year-olds i dated when i was 11 had relationships with a 19-year-old and a 15-year-old, the latter kinda ended ours later on 09:17:05 a 19 year old?! god 09:17:09 and this is legal in finland? 09:17:14 i need to move to finland. D: 09:17:27 psygnisfive: i don't remember that clearly 09:17:37 (but umm yes i was 19) 09:17:56 ehird, join me, my love! we can be free to express feelings for one another without the stares of police! 09:18:10 psygnisfive: no it's not legal, but you know she was a whore, who cares if it's mutual 09:18:17 good point! 09:18:22 well 09:18:24 most ppl 09:18:27 wait, you dated a whore? 09:18:37 err yes i wanted sex 09:18:41 surely paying a girl for sex is not "dating" in finland, is it?! 09:18:41 i was 11. 09:18:52 oh err 09:19:04 that sounds more like marriage to me. 09:19:13 i meant you know whore like girl who likes giving. 09:19:33 sexual altruist! 09:20:13 theres no such thing as altruism. 09:20:18 oklopol, she had ulterior motives. 09:20:29 she might even have been trying to enjoy the sex herself. 09:21:06 two replies 09:21:14 yeah, some things are definitely false 09:21:21 and no, there is such a thing. 09:24:22 psygnisfive: well yes of course she wanted to enjoy the sex, i basically just meant she liked sex, if you're an 11-year-old girl, that makes you a whore by some lesser definitions. 09:24:49 oklopol, if i travelled back in time, do you think i could get your 11 year old self to have sex with me? 09:25:06 i think i was very homophobic back then 09:25:25 so thats a yes 09:25:36 given that homophobia is almost always repressed homosexual feelings. 09:25:37 wait is it? 09:25:48 no it's friends being homophobic 09:26:01 and repressed homosexual feeligns. 09:26:19 right, so i guess we were kind of a gay class. 09:26:36 think of all the wasted anal sex! 09:26:45 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:26:52 yeah :( 09:27:08 oklopol: promise me youll make up for it with me some day 09:27:09 PROMISE ME 09:27:10 also: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1309 09:28:15 but anyway, that "homophobic means gay" is freudian bullshit that's bullshit 09:28:21 *thing 09:28:26 so it's grammatically sensible. 09:28:43 actually 09:28:50 its been found in experiments 09:29:01 makes sense 09:29:14 that homophobes tend to be aroused by gay porn more than non-homophobes! 09:30:52 interesting 09:31:41 "almost always" tho? 09:31:43 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:31:54 dunno 09:31:56 but 09:32:03 it makes a lot of sense. 09:32:04 that's the freudian part 09:32:18 i dont know if its freudian. 09:32:22 well that can be one motive, even the primary one 09:32:23 i mean, theres no mention of your mother! 09:32:31 plop 09:32:44 so oklopol 09:32:44 but i don't really believe in anything that reduces a human behavior in to one cause 09:32:48 when are you coming to the states huh 09:33:35 psygnisfive: maybe when i get my master's, for phd stuff, if that works out 09:33:46 well, i might come to finland some time :o 09:33:52 you can teach me some finnish ;o 09:34:40 shuuuuuuure i can tell you all about our generating grammars and stuff 09:34:48 or wait what was the term 09:34:54 syntax maybe 09:35:50 mm you do that ;d 09:37:24 wait was that sexual 09:37:33 very. 09:37:42 *into 09:37:57 what? 09:38:22 i dont know if its freudian. <<< i use freudian synonymously to bullcrap 09:38:31 psygnisfive: earlier error 09:38:32 lol 09:38:36 mmk. 09:38:50 so lets drop the pretense and just start fucking. 09:39:02 i just have kinda multiple threads working on the talking 09:39:15 so corrections can come asynchronously occasionally 09:39:23 makes sense. 09:39:28 well umm 09:39:31 i hyperthread. 09:42:53 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:53:08 okay now i beat the reversi ai in the endgame! 09:53:17 oh no D: 09:53:26 does that mean the world will end or something?! D: 09:53:35 (all my previous victories were killing it in its infancy, because the endgame is where it's good at) 09:53:37 this is bad. now it will get vengeful and... darnit psygnisfive 09:53:44 no it means i was lucky :< 09:53:51 it just made a very silly mistake. 09:53:58 STOP READING MY MIND 09:56:33 blah now it beat my by one 09:57:22 * AnMaster wonders why this file include sys/time.h and sys/resource.h 09:57:24 the problem is i'm just too stupid for games, i'm not smart enough to actually think when playing 09:57:37 as far as I can tell it doesn't need them. And I don't think it ever did 09:57:42 confusing 09:59:22 grrrrr i hate it, it always makes the same stupid mistake, and it's pretty much the only thing i can actually recognize as a mistake in that game 09:59:34 so really what the fuck 09:59:40 * oklopol considers level 2 :| 10:04:32 so umm turns out level 3's strategy is having almost no pieces on the board so that it can control my moves 10:04:33 ... 10:05:16 * oklopol is suddenly reminded of the "it is generally recognized that humans are no match for computers in othello" mention in aima 10:05:37 oklopol, you're no mere human 10:05:56 i am at games. 10:06:01 very, very human. 10:06:53 i mean 2-player games where there is no absolute measure of success, i can do all kinds of puzzles quite well 10:07:30 my way to learn board games would probably be to learn more theory 10:08:29 that's how i learned puzzles, suddenly i realized a rigorous mathematical approach simply beats pretty much any puzzle you're going to find online 10:09:51 but for games all i can do is stare 10:10:04 i simply don't know how to think about my moves. 10:10:36 FUCK 10:10:41 "open all in tabs" 10:10:45 what the fuck is that thing 10:10:56 i mean a button that closes everything you have open 10:10:57 stupid is what 10:11:08 a tab bomb? 10:11:16 it's a button in firefox 10:11:18 yeah man 10:11:19 thats what it is 10:11:22 they have that in safari too 10:11:24 its horrible 10:12:08 oklopol, under bookmarks? 10:12:18 some open one tab for each bookmark thing iirc 10:12:20 and because undo is not an os level feature, there's simply no way to reverse it 10:12:38 or did it open the same page in all tabs 10:13:04 it opens two random tabs, one is bbc news, one is a getting started in mozilla page 10:13:07 both entirely useless to me 10:13:15 oklopol, odd 10:13:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:13:32 well maybe set up by previous owner. 10:13:37 oklopol, about closing tabs, undo exists as some addon in firefox 10:13:41 iirc tabmixplus 10:13:51 or "tab mix plus" or "tabmix plus" 10:13:54 something like that 10:14:17 or i could just get a windows machine and use IE again 10:14:22 oklopol, previous owner? Wouldn't you do a clean reinstall if you buy a computer second hand 10:14:24 usually i swap when i get annoyed with the other 10:14:38 AnMaster: no i had the previous owner do the installing for me 10:14:43 ah 10:14:49 that's why i have ubuntu, you think i'd install an os 10:14:55 ah true 10:14:57 my time is precious. 10:15:14 i'm not going to install anything that requires multiple clicks! 10:15:18 oklopol, well what about disabling that button. iirc that is rather easy in firefox 10:15:24 I'll tell you how 10:15:24 i should prolly 10:15:28 okay 10:15:43 oklopol, just tell me where exactly it was, since there are several places like that iirc 10:15:59 just over the tabs, it's a whole bar 10:16:11 -!- FireFly has joined. 10:16:12 you could probably just close it completely somewhere 10:16:22 if only i knew the basics of this canonical interface... 10:16:48 okay 10:16:49 hm 10:16:51 a sec 10:16:53 it was the bookmarks toolbar 10:16:55 and i did it! 10:16:57 so 10:16:57 aha 10:17:03 maybe it does open all bookmarked stuff. 10:17:08 i just haven't bookmarked anything 10:17:14 oklopol, yes it is what it does 10:17:24 and those two are probably default bookmarks 10:17:38 prolly 10:17:39 anyway you mean the right-click menu for the bookmarks toolbar 10:17:41 right 10:17:44 i hear some people read the news 10:17:54 and yep that's what imeant 10:17:55 *i meat 10:17:57 *i meant 10:17:59 oklopol, I spent half an hour reading the news paper this morning 10:18:05 as in made in paper 10:18:07 AnMaster: i know you read it a lot 10:18:44 tbh i nowadays occasionally read the paper when waiting for the pizza at the place, if i forget to bring my own reads with me 10:18:58 it's a good reminder of why i don't read one at home 10:19:17 i meant there's like one interesting piece of news per ten papers 10:19:25 -!- asie[Virus] has joined. 10:19:28 hi 10:19:38 and even that is usually in the comics section. 10:19:44 Found a special tool for destroying the abomination that's called Win32.Virut. 10:19:51 Yep, not even Safe Mode can combat it 10:20:00 oklopol, I found the definition of it, let me figure out how to disable it 10:20:07 Safe Mode + reinstall - maybe, but not exactly sure 10:20:14 AnMaster: i did it already! 10:20:18 clean reinstall - sure, but i have too much stuff to remove 10:20:27 oklopol, oh? by removing that toolbar or? 10:20:27 rmvirut - I'll see soon... xDD 10:20:37 yes 10:20:45 oklopol, I was talking about just removing that single menu entry 10:20:48 because i don't use toolbars 10:20:49 yeah 10:20:50 hmm 10:20:51 err 10:21:00 would that have required like a compile? 10:21:13 ... 10:21:14 i mean 10:21:20 i don't use bookmarks :D 10:21:26 i guess i use some toolbars. 10:21:50 Anything new in the world of esolangs? 10:22:16 well i've been working on this one lang 10:22:39 what is it called and what's the "thing" it has that other ones don't 10:22:44 but i'm trying to keep it in the dark until ready, so no, not really 10:22:56 oh c'mon 10:23:00 menuOpenAllInTabs or hm 10:23:02 oh well 10:23:05 your decision 10:23:15 well the basic idea is guessing the function body. 10:23:22 automatically 10:23:25 based on examples 10:23:32 the real ideas are in how this is done efficiently 10:23:34 oklopol, this wouldn't need recompile 10:24:07 There's also that "history/recently closed tabs" thing, I'm not really sure if it records tab closed by the "open all in tabs" misfeature. 10:24:09 asie[Virus]: and called clue, atm 10:24:15 oklopol, since most of firefox is written in javascript 10:24:24 the GUI part of it I mean 10:24:28 If it does, you can "undo" the operation by using the "open all in tabs" option found in that recently closed tabs -menu. 10:24:42 So what, do you write the function but it guesses what does the function take via examples? 10:24:56 There's also that "history/recently closed tabs" thing, I'm not really sure if it records tab closed by the "open all in tabs" misfeature. <-- that one closes existing ones or? 10:24:57 fizzie: what? repeat that, that's useful to me 10:25:09 or do you type only arguments AND it creates the body based on examples 10:25:54 asie[Virus]: you don't write function bodies 10:26:16 you give examples of input-output pairs, and a simple set of functions to build the new function out of 10:26:31 oklopol, fizzie: http://jsbi.blogspot.com/2007/10/how-to-configure-open-all-in-tabs-in.html <-- solution for closing existing tabs it seems 10:26:35 and it brute-forces the body. 10:26:46 fizzie: thanks you saved both my lives 10:26:54 oklopol: awesome idea! :) 10:27:17 i would like to test it 10:27:36 asie[Virus]: yes, but as i said, the real ideas are in how the brute forcing is made at least remotely doable 10:27:48 oklopol: Good if it helped. Anyway, according to that AnMaster link it's rather easy (one about:config property change) to configure the bookmarks "open all in tabs" thing not to kill existing tabs. 10:27:54 oklopol: Oh, but still, I'd like to test it 10:28:07 there are multiple kinds of examples, used for different purposes, to make sure you never need to do recursion into a function you don't know is correct. 10:28:26 can you make your own examples? 10:28:38 i mean when guessing the function 10:28:44 asie[Virus]: i can dig up factorial for you 10:28:49 oklopol, fizzie, as for how to completely remove it (disclaimer: this may be outdated, I haven't tried it, it may be easy to mess up): http://codingforums.com/showthread.php?t=132383 10:28:53 or just write it now, i changed syntax a bit 10:28:58 oklopol: ok 10:29:21 Well, I finished Anglent 10:29:32 the spec 10:29:53 factorial . 0>1 : 4>24 :. 5>120 :: 11>39916800; factorial ~ mul dec 10:29:57 *mul, dec 10:30:04 -!- asiekierka has joined. 10:30:21 ok 10:30:23 i'm here 10:30:39 . is used for deducing base cases, : and :. are used in deducing the cody, :: is used for checking correctness 10:31:01 ok 10:31:26 idea is it can't ever just take the least common denominator of all examples, because you can give it large examples not even used in the guessing process, except to test the end results 10:32:18 -!- asie[Virus] has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 10:32:46 there are some issues for functions that don't have quite as straightforward a recursion pattern, but they are probably doable, i just don't know how yet 10:36:34 I'm thinking of an esolang while I have too much time on my hands xD 10:36:39 for example, right now 10:38:32 One of the ideas I got is: Normal 6-sided cubes, a number on each side, on a map. Each cell on the 2-D map is mapped to an instruction, and you can map them yourself. So the cubes start on all sides as 0's, and you can move them left, right, up or down. The source code is the instruction map followed by the amount of cubes and instructions for each cube 10:38:47 Each cube has a separate IP, which can be modified by an instruction on the map to create loops 10:39:05 It's a neat idea and I think possible to implement by me 10:39:31 well, the map could be implemented as a PNG file 10:40:00 So the source code would consist of: x maps and 1 "cube instruction file" 10:40:22 well, 1 map and 1 CIF 10:40:33 The CIF could look like this: 10:40:40 SSEE 10:40:50 This would move the cube to 3,3 10:40:54 (from 1,1) 10:41:08 while rotating it 2 times south and 2 times east 10:41:15 I don't know if I can explain it 10:41:21 does anyone understand it? 10:41:41 wait umm 10:41:58 The cubes change the side on the axis they're moving 10:42:07 I will show in a paste 10:42:07 you have like a map and tons of cubes on it, and all cubes have a simple program controlling them? 10:42:13 Yep 10:42:15 but different programs 10:42:19 yes, but 10:42:21 Also, a cube can store 6 variables 10:42:25 are they simple programs 10:42:31 Yes 10:42:36 or any programs 10:42:36 The map can be complex 10:42:52 but the cube controlling programs have only 5 commands: 10:43:03 so you have tons of really simple entities and you need to use the interaction to get actual computation? 10:43:07 N - Move North, S - Move South, E - Move East, W - Move West, P - Pause 10:43:21 oklopol: Yep, interaction with the map 10:43:24 So for example 10:43:28 if a cube moves SSEE 10:43:31 okay and loops? 10:43:48 oklopol: There'll be an instruction to dec/inc the IP 10:43:51 for the local cube 10:44:08 hmm. 10:44:13 and a double-move instruction "The next move will be carried out twice, ignoring the first block hit" 10:44:31 i'd probably prefer it if you could just have you know [NNSS] to loop that piece forever 10:44:33 Oh, and the simple programs loop 10:44:42 ah! 10:44:43 okay 10:44:43 Well, if you want so 10:44:52 I could do it this way 10:45:03 but I'd like to actually keep both ways 10:45:06 no actually i like the actual programs looping 10:45:14 oh 10:45:27 And the simple programs loop from beginning to end 10:45:28 well do what you wish, but i love the general idea 10:45:37 until they hit a block causing the cube to "die" 10:45:58 and the program ends either if a halt block is hit or if there are no cubes left 10:46:02 also maybe there could be commands in the map language to fill an area with cubes of a kind and such 10:46:14 i mean i definitely want like tons of cubes 10:46:16 mmmm cubes 10:46:29 oklopol: Well, you would need to have preloaded programs 10:46:39 but you can have as many cubes as your memory allows 10:47:17 and remember, each cube has 6 local variables and a cell memory of 10000 8-bit cells 10:47:19 well 10:47:20 er 10:47:24 the cell memory is global 10:47:28 but the 6 vars are local 10:47:40 okay good was worried there for a sec 10:47:40 This is a pain when you step on a command that needs a parameter 10:47:44 cubes need to be dumb :P 10:47:51 and you have a wrong one 10:47:56 then the program is !@#$% 10:48:20 But still, I think this is an awesome idea 10:48:29 sadly, i can't do it until my PC is clean 10:49:00 but I promise there will be at least the 4 commands from deadfish 10:49:03 i like the rolling dice idea, assuming current top number is used as a param to whatever instruction is stepped on 10:49:08 it's like wheel done right 10:49:15 *Wheel 10:49:40 inc by 1, inc by the dice variable, dec by 1, dec by dice variable, swap cell and current top number, add current top number to cell... 10:49:47 This one requires a lot of commands to be done easy 10:50:01 but to be hard to the potential user 10:50:07 I can get most of these away 10:50:24 cell? which cell? 10:50:40 oklopol: Selected by another two commands 10:50:46 move right by 3 and move left by 2 10:50:51 cubes have their own cell in the global memory? 10:50:58 no 10:51:02 you can move the cell pointer 10:51:07 which is local to all cubes 10:51:10 ah 10:51:14 starts at 0? 10:51:18 Yep 10:51:26 Well, it will have a lot of commands 10:51:33 but Befunge will still have more xD 10:51:39 well no matter, as long as they are simple commands 10:51:44 well, yep 10:51:56 just remember to keep the cubes dumb :P 10:51:59 inc, dec, add, sub, move ptr left, move ptr right, skip command if blah, etc... 10:52:31 i need to make coffee now, and think about hordes of rolling dice 10:52:32 -> 10:52:44 oklopol: You mean, keep them with only 5 commands, NSEW and Wait 1 cycle? 10:53:04 cuz the map will have a bunch of simple instruction 10:53:14 while cubes will have some simpler commands 10:53:14 xD 10:56:09 oh 10:56:12 and, the file format 10:56:13 http://rafb.net/p/muBvSV86.html 10:56:37 So the first command is "." - NOP 10:56:39 xD 10:57:14 -!- asiekierka has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 10:57:19 -!- asiekierka has joined. 10:57:42 Ok, so, i'm back 10:57:46 How's the file format? 10:57:55 asiekierka: well point is it'd be cool if you actually had to use multiple cubes. 10:58:06 or that it actually was easier than just using one 10:58:15 oklopol: Well, it IS easier if using more cubes 10:58:19 that's pretty hard to achieve ofc. 10:58:20 Cuz this brings multitasking 10:58:20 as in 10:58:26 10 cubes do something at once 10:58:33 so you can make a smaller map IMO 10:59:01 welllllll, just finish it and i can tell you whether i'd use just one cube for programs or multiple :| 10:59:11 oklopol: One of the ways I could achieve this is that I only had 5 commands and different types of cubes 10:59:19 For example, an addition/subtraction cube 10:59:26 no 10:59:27 i'm just saying usually it's easier to have you know an ip. 10:59:41 you can see the IP 10:59:53 but you can't modify it that easily 10:59:58 by ip i mean a cube. 10:59:59 -!- tombom has joined. 11:00:00 -!- tombom has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:00:08 -!- tombom has joined. 11:00:13 oklopol: I plan to make text output doing just that 11:00:16 for example 11:00:18 O.. 11:00:19 ... 11:00:20 ... 11:00:24 where O is the cube 11:00:34 The cube could be 0 11:00:36 then cube 1 11:00:38 then cube 2 11:00:39 i mean like a turtle, something the programmer can focus on, "so okay it moves here, then it does this, then..." 11:00:49 well, yep 11:00:52 you can see it 11:00:56 I may also add a debug output 11:01:10 Where it outputs the map status, positions of cubes and what they're doing and their variables 11:01:14 but duh 11:01:25 i don't know how to improve "Dicedo" 11:01:34 You can use a single cube 11:01:35 sure 11:01:42 hey awesome name 11:01:48 yours? 11:01:52 yep 11:01:55 but it'll be much more fun using multiple cubes if I had 3D output 11:02:01 you could see the cubes spinning 11:02:04 er 11:02:05 rolling 11:02:14 But i can't implement THAT 11:02:35 but I think newbies would use a single cube 11:02:37 it's easier than you think 11:02:52 oklopol: Sorry, not an OpenGL master 11:03:27 oklopol: I can implement the interpreter 11:03:34 and maybe text output 11:03:38 but that's about it 11:03:43 i'm just saying the hard parts of 3d'ing aren't present in such a simulation 11:03:58 oklopol: I'm not even a GL newbie 11:04:02 i just don't quite get it 11:04:17 But still, I will do text output, and I will put the source code 11:04:29 so anyone interested can ask me and help me adding 3D output 11:04:33 err what's there to get about gl, it's a library 11:04:43 well, I get GL 11:04:50 but sure i'm fine with text output 11:05:06 oklopol: As in, it will output the current map look 11:05:10 and variables of all the cubes 11:05:17 and their position 11:05:20 so for example 11:05:23 the map shows 11:05:24 #.. 11:05:25 ... 11:05:25 ... 11:05:33 and the text output adds 11:05:41 Cube0(1,1): 0,0,0,0,0,0 11:05:46 er 11:05:47 i mean 11:05:54 Cube0(1,1): 0,0,0,0,0,[0] 11:06:01 the variable in [] is the current one 11:06:18 But it's one idea 11:06:29 Should I implement it? 11:06:49 I probably will given that you implement Clue 11:06:54 cuz I like the conce 11:06:57 concept* 11:07:02 and wonder how will I write apps for it xD 11:07:22 I only need to craft the instruction set 11:08:26 i will implement clue if i have time for that before i realize some horrible defect in the idea... 11:08:45 i've realized many, but always found my way around them 11:08:53 it's just quite a different paradigm 11:09:05 which is ofc something i always aspire to create 11:09:22 I wonder if Dicedo has a paradigm 11:09:31 ...has a paradigm yet 11:09:36 as in, what could it be 11:10:33 the same paradigm as befunge presumably, depending on how relevant multithreading ends up being 11:11:10 Probably "not exactly needed but useful for optimization and just having more fun doing an app in it" 11:11:14 i've been thinking of a similar language, except no instructions, just millions of cubes using a simple set of rules to move around 11:11:45 asiekierka: so probably the funge paradigm 11:11:47 how would you WRITE something in it 11:13:03 dunno, depends on how memory is done 11:13:46 I was thinking of a single variable 11:13:59 which can be added to by cubes falling into holes 11:14:01 finite state var per cube probably 11:14:09 well, maybe yes 11:15:31 I will show you how a one-cube cat could look like 11:15:41 anyway i need to start reading my book, would've started earlier, but it seems i don't have to do my exercises for tomorrow either so i'm kinda on holiday atm 11:15:57 do show 11:16:22 well 11:16:26 i'm thinking 11:19:36 http://rafb.net/p/yVSfpW83.html 11:19:40 This SHOULD be it 11:19:50 the commands may not stay 11:19:56 but it's a general outline of a 1-cube Cat 11:20:27 remember the commands loop 11:21:28 And? 11:21:42 err 11:21:51 the NNSSSNSNSNSSN line is the cube's code? 11:21:57 yes 11:21:59 N - North 11:22:01 S - South\ 11:22:03 what are ones and fives? where's the cube? 11:22:04 what are dots? 11:22:15 DIdn't you read the file format? 11:22:30 The width, The height, The map, The cube amount, The cube instructions 11:22:33 . are NOPs 11:22:51 aaa 11:23:15 and # is the cube 11:23:19 So, there you go 11:23:38 A hello world could be some cubes inputting their code 11:23:52 then pausing and moving appropiately to output Hello, World! 11:23:55 okay then that looks about right 11:24:08 whaddya think 11:24:40 i think cubes having code has interesting implications at least for simple programs 11:25:06 but i'd need to see more 11:25:23 But I need to make the instruction set 11:25:26 but that'll come later 11:25:36 except if you want to take on with the project and finish it yourself 11:28:02 probably not, i'm not *that* interested 11:28:15 :P 11:28:23 well 11:28:24 and kind of busy too 11:28:54 i just don't get this part so can't really get dragged into the book 11:29:19 but, i'll close the monitor now, so umm see you in a few hours maybe 11:29:26 or in 5 minutes, depends 11:29:27 ok 11:33:31 -!- GiveMeMony has joined. 11:50:43 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:02:27 -!- GiveMeMony has changed nick to M0ny. 12:04:24 i'm bor[e]d 12:05:09 anyone know of any program (on linux) to find out what notes were played in a piece of music. Hm... 12:05:55 glio 12:05:57 I can kind of hear several of them by listening, and can even play it on the piano from that, except some that I get confused by. 12:06:15 oklopol, was that an answer to my question or just random 12:06:24 it was a <- 12:06:28 ah 12:06:33 but yeah notes can be pretty confusing 12:07:50 oklopol, there are two instruments (some stringed instrument and some sort of "no such instrument" from a synth I think) playing in the music file and I'm interested in one of them, 12:08:10 and it is the latter instrument (much louder) that I'm interested in finding the notes for 12:08:33 If it's a MIDI, may be easy 12:08:37 it is ogg 12:08:39 well i can try listening, not that i'm especially good at it 12:08:43 and of course I know with midi 12:08:50 oklopol, a sec for link 12:08:55 k 12:09:15 AnMaster: That's next to impossible with a computer program 12:09:27 i'm leaving soon tho, if i can't look now, i'll look later 12:09:51 since this is from an open source game I guess I could try to contact the original author or something... but that sounds like more work 12:10:11 asiekierka: no not really 12:10:20 oklopol, http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/sad.ogg?rev=30628 12:11:44 hmph, not opening it seems 12:11:51 oklopol, odd 12:11:58 link works for me 12:12:00 can i dl that somehow 12:12:11 i mean the actual sound is not coming out, i get on the page 12:12:19 There's a lot of algorithms for that, but I'm not sure if there are very many applications. 12:12:21 oklopol, that is a download link for the ogg 12:12:38 AnMaster: yeah but firefox just opens it in the browser 12:12:39 so yes you can download it I guess, just wget it 12:12:56 oklopol, meh it works with mplayer http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/sad.ogg?rev=30628 on command line here 12:13:00 or wget 12:13:06 and there's "open with media player" in right-click menu, but that program doesn't really work 12:13:15 ouch 12:13:27 never tried wgetting, but okay let's try that 12:13:30 fizzie, so no idea about any program at all 12:13:46 oklopol, wget "http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/sad.ogg?rev=30628" 12:13:57 file will be named sad.ogg?rev=30628 12:14:00 for some reason 12:14:09 AnMaster: Well, you could possibly abuse praat (that's in many package managers) but since it's really designed for speech processing, it'd be mostly manual pick-from-spectrogram stuff. 12:14:29 fizzie, not in gentoo at least with that spelling 12:14:30 hm 12:14:55 Well, it's in Debian. Anyway, it does not do "pick up notes", really. 12:15:04 fizzie, meh. 12:15:27 well I could pick from spectrogram I guess. If this app actually works well 12:15:48 you want the main melody? 12:16:02 oklopol, yes I have parts of it already 12:16:09 well i have all of it 12:16:09 but I would like the rest yes 12:16:13 oh? 12:16:21 please tell :) 12:16:29 023...0...3...2.b.0.............023...0...3...5.2.0............... 12:16:36 was the first part iirc 12:16:42 wait a sec forgot the rest 12:16:58 I think I've seen at least one sampled-music-to-midi conversion application, but I think it probably didn't work very well. The easiest way would indeed have at least a bit music-oriented person do it. 12:17:02 um, what is 0 there 12:17:12 357...3...7...5.2.3.............357...3...7...5.2.3............... 12:17:21 AnMaster: notes are ba01234567 here 12:17:28 0 is the "base note" 12:18:04 I got A B C A C B G A as the start 12:18:14 okay 0 is A 12:18:21 2 is B, 3 is C etc 12:18:35 hm 12:18:49 as for the timing I can figure out that myself much more easily 12:18:49 a change of 1 just means stepping one forward, in piano keys. 12:18:57 oklopol, indeed 12:19:01 well you have the timing as well, unless i typoed dots 12:19:02 but yeah sure 12:19:26 anyway i can't promise i can do the background melody, i'm not that good at listening 12:19:58 lets see, I managed to get A B C A C B G A A B C A C D B A before I asked in here. Does that match... hm 12:20:02 it's somekinda weird instrument 12:20:10 yes 12:20:25 the second part is just the first thing, one third up 12:20:27 oklopol, then what after, lets see, I lost track of where I was in your line 12:20:40 it's the second line 12:20:41 ah right 12:20:48 but it's just repeating the first thing 12:20:50 twice 12:20:52 a third up 12:20:56 aha 12:20:57 in major, that is 12:21:29 btw we had much harder melodies as exercises at like 3rd grade 12:21:42 well maybe 5th, but still 12:21:42 oklopol: Did it make you SAD, though? It is, after all, sad.ogg. 12:21:51 hah 12:21:56 oklopol, mhm, Swedish school system suck I guess. 12:22:05 fizzie: yes, sad that anyone would make suck a trivial piece 12:22:18 AnMaster: we were a special music class, lke 12:22:19 make: *** No rule to make target `suck'. Stop. 12:22:19 *like 12:22:57 oklopol, um I don't think our way to interpret first line match, since you are missing a -1 there? 12:23:03 or.. 12:23:08 AnMaster: i don't think there's any music "reverse-engineering" in most schools 12:23:16 ah 12:23:24 AnMaster: it's the b 12:23:26 There certainly wasn't music reverse-engineering in our school. 12:23:27 it's minus 2 12:23:54 oh right 12:24:01 but where is the -2 then 12:24:07 * AnMaster re-reads 12:24:19 fizzie: that was pretty much the only thing i learned something from in elementary school 12:24:34 i mean the music stuff in general 12:24:49 problem is music is kind of a useless subject 12:25:14 i mean you can't use musical intuition for math. 12:25:27 so umm useless i think 12:25:54 AnMaster: it's in the correct place 12:25:59 so should be easy to find. 12:27:07 357...3...7...5.2.3.............357...3...7...5.2.3............... that would be CDE...C...E...D.B.C.............CDE...C...E...D.B.C............... right 12:27:19 yes 12:31:57 so rewritten as note names it end up as: ABC...A...C...B.G.A.............ABC...A...C...D.B.A...............CDE...C...E...D.B.C.............CDE...C...E...D.B.C............... indeed 12:32:05 oklopol, anyway if you want something more complex... 12:32:36 http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/vengeful.ogg?rev=29785 12:32:45 oklopol, it should be a bit less simple ;P 12:32:54 (no I don't want a list of notes in it) 12:33:28 lessee 12:33:41 * AnMaster notes that in general wesnoth has very good in-game music 12:34:02 Is it just me, or was the overall volume level a lot higher for this latter song? 12:34:18 it's just me, actually 12:34:26 -!- asiekierka has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 12:34:42 fizzie, that's odd, I noticed that it is higher in ogg123 but not in older mplayer versions (seems to be higher in new mplayer versions too) 12:35:04 which makes no sense as far as I understood the ogg format 12:35:31 It's "MPlayer 1.0rc2-4.3.2" they've installed here. 12:35:45 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:35:48 that's rather old 12:36:05 I think 12:36:10 anyway with old I meant: 12:36:12 MPlayer 1.0rc1-4.1.1 (C) 2000-2006 MPlayer Team 12:36:25 The copyright note in this says "(C) 2000-2007". 12:36:29 AnMaster: that's kinda ambient, so yeah i can't say i remember it with one hearing 12:36:44 oklopol, do you like it though? 12:36:50 also yeah it is rather long 12:37:02 6 minutes iirc 12:37:15 and a few seconds or so 12:37:34 AnMaster: it's not bad 12:37:40 6 minutes isn't that long 12:37:41 Deewiant: I wonder if you get highlighted messages in a log or something. Anyway, about the amount of crashes in the tournament thing; it certainly is rather impressive: http://www.cs.hut.fi/Studies/T-93.4400/2009/results/ 12:37:41 mhm 12:37:44 All them X's there. 12:37:53 oklopol, ok, depends on what type of music. 12:37:54 my longest pieces are like 20 12:37:57 heh 12:38:06 longest recorded 6:40 12:38:09 but umm 12:38:11 see ya 12:38:14 gotta go shoppe. 12:38:15 "It stretches into distance like a 50-minute kraftwerk song", to quote one webcomic. 12:39:08 well game music is a rather unusual genre really. 12:39:26 close to certain types of film music. 12:40:59 * AnMaster doesn't usually like music with a lot of beat in it, the exception being film/game music where it fits the film or game. 12:41:33 hm 12:41:39 s/film/music/ 12:41:40 I think 12:41:41 meh 12:41:50 fizzie: how did you score crashes? 12:41:58 (easy to mix them up thanks to Swedish word film) 12:42:29 Results 1 - 10 of about 7,720,000 for "film music". (0.14 seconds) Results 1 - 10 of about 6,640,000 for "movie music". (0.13 seconds) 12:42:29 film=movie 12:42:30 meh 12:42:34 so don't worry about that. 12:42:38 oklopol, a film of oil? 12:42:45 or is THAT the real Swedishism 12:45:16 i don't know what film of oil means 12:45:24 but film=movie 12:46:03 oklopol, I think either http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/suspense.ogg?rev=32312 or http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/heroes_rite.ogg?rev=30993 should be even harder. 12:46:15 http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/siege_of_laurelmor.ogg?rev=34075 sounds hard too to me. But for different reasons 12:46:45 oklopol: As a win for the non-crashing opponent. 12:46:48 well i'm leaving now, so can't listen 12:46:53 ok 12:46:54 fizzie: err right xD 12:47:09 i'm kinda dumb 12:47:10 well 12:47:11 see ya 12:47:11 -> 12:47:27 fizzie, that bot boar or whatever seemed pretty stuipd 12:47:39 and didn't some of them test this at all? 12:55:23 AnMaster: The boar bot is the one I mentioned last night: Deewiant: That "boar" bot there which has crashed all games has a "move()" method that has the form "do(); stuff(); and(); stuff(); /* something(); */ return null;" 12:55:52 fizzie, heh 12:56:13 I did try to tell them to test it under the tournament system, with the memory limits and such in place, but I guess not everyone bothered. 12:56:27 fizzie, mhm, would it have worked otherwise? 12:56:45 Not that one, but there are some who've been crashing with OutOfMemoryErrors. 12:56:51 right 12:57:06 fizzie, so what about the boar one, didn't they test it at all? 12:57:32 One submission only had the .java sources, not compiled class files at all. My personal guess for that is that they've been developing with Eclipse, and when you run the GUI thing under Eclipse it actually uses the eclipse-compiled classes no matter what's in the .jar file. 12:57:49 I guess the boar people could've simply accidentally returned the wrong .jar. Or something. Or maybe they didn't test it. 12:58:00 fizzie, haven't asked them? 12:58:36 Haven't even announced the results officially yet, waiting for the "unofficial" participants (random-move-bot and last year's top 5) to finish so I get some sort of comparisons there. 12:59:58 Anyway, the instructions say they should be writing a couple of lines about the bot's tournament results in the final reports (due in two-three weeks), I'm sure they'll tell me there what went wrong. 13:02:38 The boar-bot results did crash my statistics-page-generation script; there is a silly "efficiency" measure -- log(score/totalcpu), basically "how good results achieved per CPU seconds of computation", in log-scale -- which didn't like the score == totalcpu == 0 case. 13:11:23 -!- andreou has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:11:23 -!- kerlo has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:11:49 -!- andreou has joined. 13:11:49 -!- kerlo has joined. 13:30:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:41:35 -!- Asztal_ has joined. 13:44:44 -!- neldoret1 has joined. 13:56:18 -!- neldoreth has quit (No route to host). 14:03:08 $ cat map 14:03:08 cat: map: File too large 14:03:10 thats... 14:03:11 strange 14:03:40 everything else thinks the file is either unreadable or size 0 14:03:49 meh, /proc on freebsd is strange 14:07:55 Alternatively /proc on Linux is strange; they're just different, I think. At least on this FreeBSD the /proc//map file of a random process is readable with cat, but maybe that was some special process? 14:09:21 Actually it was /proc/curproc/map... the ones in pid-dirs seem a bit uncattable, although with "Operation not permitted". 14:09:41 Must go catch a bus again. 14:27:34 fizzie, it was a python process 14:27:41 hm 14:27:58 that was eating 50% of the 6 GB RAM in the server 14:28:06 8 GB even 14:32:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:33:54 my time is precious. 14:33:55 k 14:43:06 oerjan, hi 14:43:14 hi 15:02:09 08:16 oklopol: one of the 11-year-olds i dated when i was 11 had relationships with a 19-year-old and a 15-year-old, the latter kinda ended ours later on 15:02:25 i knew an idiotic 11 year old who simultaneously had a relationship with an 18 year old and a 19 year old, iirc 15:02:30 well small values of "knew" 15:02:36 more like "idly detested" 15:08:35 fizzie: Heh, amusing results. And yes, I get highlighted messages in the awaylog. 15:08:49 * ehird inestigates SSDs 15:09:29 hm 15:09:37 they seem slower than HDs? 15:09:50 wait, no 15:09:54 faster 15:09:56 read wrong 15:10:10 ehird: http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3531 - best article on the topic, ever. Read it. 15:10:16 Sure thing. 15:11:16 Deewiant: wanna give me a tl;dr summary while I read? 15:11:24 Only it's kind of fucking hug 15:11:24 e 15:11:39 it hugs you and draws you into its maw 15:11:42 or something 15:12:06 sorry, been reading about too many baby-eating aliens lately 15:12:13 heh 15:12:18 I got yall hooked on that story, Idid 15:12:19 *I did 15:12:47 ehird: Well, it explains what SSDs are, why you want them, how they work, why most of the ones on the market are actually pretty crap, etc 15:13:05 No Shit Sherlock(TM) 15:13:13 I meant what is its essential results :- 15:13:14 P 15:13:47 Intels rock but cost craploads, some of OCZ's new ones seem to be okay and aren't too expensive, all the rest suck 15:13:52 Or something like that 15:14:47 Deewiant: All I want is a super-fast 1TB SSD for $3. 15:14:51 That's not asking for much. 15:15:22 ehird: i'm sure only thing you need for that is a time machine 15:15:27 *the 15:17:02 Anyway, SSDs are really appealing to me atm as a silent replacement for the velociraptor 15:18:02 um, what? 15:18:12 Also much more expensive and less spacey 15:18:21 oerjan: VelociRaptor. It's a 10K rpm drive. 15:18:33 aha 15:18:42 Deewiant: Expensive, yes, but a lot of things I'm doing for the silence is expensive. Less spacey, yep, that's irritating. 15:18:50 i was wondering if you were building onto my time machine joke 15:19:09 s/is ex/are ex/ 15:19:16 ehird: Just get a 5.4K RPM drive if you want silence. :-P 15:19:30 Deewiant: I'm also trying to get speed. :P 15:19:38 Compromising is hard. 15:19:41 Let's go shopping. 15:20:06 that would be in itself an awful compromise, since i hate shopping 15:20:19 Well, put the two in priority order and use the lower one only to break ties :-P 15:20:49 Deewiant: I'm ordering on the unordered tuple (power,silence). 15:20:54 The ordering is decided at think-time. 15:21:10 ehird: So think again until you get it the way I want you to get it. 15:21:22 I am. 15:21:36 And then don't think about it again. 15:21:37 so if your thinking is confused you might end up comparing the power of one with the silence of the other? 15:21:45 :D 15:23:20 you might order by silence^power, then you get a math pun out of it 15:24:20 "SSDs have +5 armor immunity to random access latency (that’s got to be the single most geeky-sounding thing I’ve ever written, and I use words like latency a lot)" 15:24:30 hm, this makes me wonder if evil = money^power 15:24:50 well 15:24:54 money = sqrt evil 15:24:59 no no 15:25:09 so it follows that evil = money^2 15:25:11 so 15:25:13 if power=2 15:25:17 evil = money^power 15:25:25 um roots are not necessarily square roots 15:25:34 well sure 15:25:38 power roots 15:25:39 :P 15:25:52 which was my thinking exactly 15:26:46 It has to be said that I'm fucking crazy (I spent yesterday chasing up anything hinting at a fanless i7 cooler...) 15:27:54 i've read somewhere that liquid nitrogen is cheaper than beer, but the rest of the necessary equipment might be a bit more 15:28:14 (beer in the US, i think, which is probably pretty cheap) 15:28:22 watercooling would work it's just that no fucking way man 15:28:36 i'm a new member of the Huge Fucking Heatsink church 15:29:03 fucking is not generally considered a heatsink 15:29:17 :D 15:30:45 * ehird lols at the hypothetical 20KB drive 15:38:29 well, the erasing issue and degrading performance is sad. OTOH they are still faster than the raptors 15:38:39 I'd go with the intel x25-e, I think 15:39:06 hm 15:39:10 only goes up to 64gb 15:39:10 :< 15:39:19 -!- neldoret1 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:39:26 well the -M would be fine too :P 15:41:22 eh 15:41:26 really expensive 15:42:32 Toldya so :-P 15:42:40 yar. 15:43:07 but srsly, $700 more than a 300gb velociraptor for a 150gb x25-m 15:43:15 that's just redonkulous 15:44:50 SSDs' form factor is nice though 15:44:50 P 15:44:51 :P 15:44:56 *SSD's 15:44:58 hm 15:45:00 bah 15:45:02 I hate pluralization 15:46:02 Well, if it's 50x faster and 0.5x as big then 10x the price is a good deal? :-P 15:46:16 "I told him I’d need an average response time in the sub-1ms range and a max latency no worse than Intel’s 94ms. I didn’t think it would be possible. I was prepared for OCZ to hate me once more. He told me to give him a couple of days." 15:46:20 this guy is a bastard, I love him 15:46:35 Deewiant: i simply can't afford to pay that much for a drive :-P 15:46:46 ehird: Toldya so 15:46:53 aw shaddup 15:46:58 :-P 15:47:01 Om nom -> 15:48:33 OCZ looks nice 15:48:38 when will he quote the price 15:49:20 -!- Asztal_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:52:20 http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/thessdanthology_031809001858/18643.png 15:52:23 That's bad. 15:53:15 fizzie: what's wrong with the form do();stuff();and();stuff();? i mean i don't know what you mean by that form 15:56:41 Hrm 15:56:44 the vertex looks nice 15:56:45 still costly 15:57:50 my time is precious. ||| k <<< :D 15:59:34 -!- neldoreth has joined. 16:12:32 http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A104175 16:23:53 16:25:37 ehird: Your Velociraptor doesn't seem so fast after looking at graphs like that does it? :-P 16:25:52 Deewiant: Yeah but $s. 16:26:46 The X25-M doesn't seem /that/ expensive actually 16:26:59 The -E is, but the -M is almost purchaseable 16:27:11 $700 more than a raptor, Deewiant. 16:27:23 For the same size, sure 16:27:37 But 400 € for a 80 Go one 16:28:00 Deewiant: 80GB for all OSery? 16:28:01 C'mon. 16:28:26 What, not enough for you? 16:28:35 nope :-) 16:28:51 I can't imagine dualbooting and having a good collection of apps with 80gb 16:29:01 I have a 50G partition on which Vista lives — it's using 34 16:29:11 Linux also has a 50G partition, it's using 21 16:29:19 (And has way more apps installed) 16:29:22 Maybe I generate more shit than you 16:29:34 Maybe you do 16:29:44 My data partition is using 459G currently 16:29:47 Deewiant: ask $PKG_MANAGER how many packages lunix has? 16:29:56 ehird: 617 16:30:05 hm. 16:30:09 Of which 308 are dependencies and 309 not 16:30:21 I dunno, 80GB seems stifling. 16:30:47 Like said I'm essentially working with 100 and I've got 35 to spare 16:31:32 If you're worried, get two ;-P 16:32:04 Deewiant: Two would be more expensive than a bigger one, I imagine... 16:32:13 Actually not 16:32:22 o_O 16:32:27 Anyway, I'd have to RAID them 16:32:27 Or wait, what 16:32:34 There are many here with differing prices 16:32:44 How much is the vertex 16:32:48 SSDSA2MH160G1 and SSDSA2MH160G1C5 16:32:57 The latter is 2.5 mm taller 16:33:04 And 100 € more expensive 16:33:13 that's the only difference? ;) 16:33:14 I wonder what that 2.5 mm brings :-P 16:33:20 ehird: According to the shop's product pages, yes 16:33:24 hahaahaha 16:33:26 Of course they don't have much info 16:33:36 Amusingly the height is even in bold 16:33:47 Like it's the most important thing :-P 16:33:50 :DD 16:34:02 Vertex, 412.9 € for 120 G 16:34:19 So £372 real money 16:34:21 That's not bad 16:51:55 meh where is ais... 16:54:22 doing other things 16:58:41 well true 16:58:51 just I needed him due to IFFI.. 17:24:32 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:24:32 anyway someone tell ais when he is here next time that he need to pull from my darcs repo for ick since I had to change API of one of the functions he use in cfunge (IFFI should work with both old and new now) 17:24:51 ("had to" as in part of code cleanup) 17:25:15 -!- sebbu has joined. 17:29:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Sproing!"). 17:31:07 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:35:06 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:35:35 hi ais523 17:35:36 hi everyone 17:35:37 AnMaster: 17:35:41 ah 17:35:42 I've been getting C-INTERCAL running on clang 17:35:44 ais523, broke IFFI 17:35:51 ais523, pull from my darcs repo to get a fix 17:35:51 AnMaster: what, again? 17:35:53 API change 17:35:54 and ok 17:36:07 that's the great thing about having a repo 17:36:09 ais523, the new code checks cfunge api version and thus works on 0.4.0 and last 17:36:10 somehow I don't think I'll get a totally fanless i7 17:36:16 stupid intel and their stupid hot. 17:36:34 ehird, AMD cpus are generally cooler, even the high end ones I hear 17:36:39 AnMaster: got it 17:36:54 AnMaster: the amd system meeting my requirements doesn't have the fanless cooler option but I could get my own cooler I guess 17:37:09 ehird: Aren't you getting your own cooler anyway? :-P 17:37:19 ehird, hm 17:37:24 Deewiant: endpcnoise.com offers the ones I was considerng 17:37:37 Oh, you're using some kinda prebuilt mess 17:37:46 C-INTERCAL now builds on K&R C with unproto, and cross-compiles to ARM without trouble 17:37:46 ehird, wouldn't it be simpler to get the components separate and build your own 17:37:51 define 'mess', all of spcr's reviews are glowing 17:38:02 AnMaster: no, endpcnoise gets it right apart from that 17:38:02 it builds on both llvm-gcc and clang with a bit of build system fiddlery 17:38:09 eg HD enclosure, acoustipak 17:38:13 mhm 17:38:32 ais523, oh? So what about the wrong collect2 thingy 17:38:46 AnMaster: I got around that different ways for the two builds 17:38:59 I'm not sure about replacing the cooler myself anyway 17:39:05 Me and thermal paste is a recipe for disaster 17:39:06 on llvm-gcc I just added RANLIB=ranlib to the configure line, that builds two indexes for the .a files so that either native or llvm collect2 works 17:39:07 ais523, please tell me 17:39:33 ais523, um, but isn't the actual object file format different too 17:39:35 on clang, I use CFLAGS=-emit-llvm LINK='llvm-ld -o $@' 17:39:57 ais523, no -emit-llvm on ick? 17:40:06 AnMaster: what do you mean by that? 17:40:15 s/ick/llvm-gcc/ 17:40:16 typoed 17:40:19 no 17:40:23 was thinking two things at once. heh 17:40:25 that's the through-native build 17:40:32 whereas clang is via-bytecode 17:40:37 and builds to bytecode in the end 17:40:38 ais523, also did you push your updated ick yet, since I pulled shortly before you joined, no new changes 17:40:48 just pushed 17:40:52 in the last couple of minuts 17:40:54 *minutes 17:40:57 k 17:41:14 I wonder if you can buy pre-watercooled sytsems 17:41:40 ehird, no one would be insane enough to provide the warranty... 17:41:54 the g5 mac pro was watercooled i think 17:41:57 I guess apple are insane enough 17:42:21 hm ok 17:42:36 yeah I remember hearing about that 17:42:52 well 17:42:53 ehird, I don't think all G5 were, just some of the final models of it. 17:42:55 it wasn't called a mac pro 17:42:59 AnMaster: power mac g5 17:43:17 2004 June: 90 nm DP 1.8, DP 2.0 and DP 2.5 GHz replace all previous models. The 2.5 GHz model is notable as the first major PC with liquid cooling included as stock. 17:43:23 so it went a year without watercooling 17:43:24 ehird, well I meant the model you can do more than just replace ram inside 17:43:27 whatever it is called 17:43:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Mac_G5 17:43:40 from its second year on it had watercooling 17:43:56 ais523, btw you may need to update pull path for cfunge itself 17:44:22 ais523, some days ago it changed to http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/bzr/cfunge/trunk (added trunk at end while reorganizing things) 17:44:29 oh, the version I'm currently using is a release version, not dev 17:44:33 ah 17:44:35 and was downloaded via tarball 17:44:37 ais523, well it should work too 17:44:40 I hope 17:46:11 ais523, btw you may want to adjust IFFI a bit to take full advantage of the change. 17:46:27 a sec for details 17:46:40 ais523, http://bzr.kuonet.org/cfunge/trunk/annotate/head%3A/doc/API_CHANGES 17:47:47 ais523, fungespace_load_string was just a thin wrapper that did strlen() and passed it on to the same code cfunge used internally in the last few releases 17:48:04 oh, handling embedded NUL 17:48:18 I may modify the compilation technique for Befunge, in that case 17:48:34 ais523, well atm it does strlen() if the newer API version is detected. 17:48:44 but yeah you might want to replace that. 17:49:17 ais523, point is that the external API supports it now too. 17:50:40 ais523, the ick side has issues with embedded 0-bytes? 17:50:49 maybe i'll just not cool anything and be careful with load :-D 17:50:53 ais523: Mycology has an embedded NUL :-) 17:50:55 ehird, bad idea 17:50:59 indeed 17:50:59 AnMaster: no shit 17:51:02 :P 17:51:13 quiet and cheap though ;) 17:51:33 Deewiant, and internally cfunge handled this for ages. Just the external code for IFFI didn't handle it 17:51:36 AnMaster: not really, but it doesn't store any info on the true length of the string 17:51:45 ais523, ah 17:51:50 so there's no way to record whether it continues past the NUL or not 17:51:54 http://bilder.wibla.net/albums/monster/DSC_1820.sized.jpg 17:51:57 Wwwwwwwwwwwowwwwwwwwwwww. 17:52:20 Heh. 17:52:20 Deewiant, anyway I suggest adding an embedded form feed, if you haven't already. I think it still breaks rc/funge, unless you contacted him about it or such. 17:52:30 What are you even going to do with 11TB? 17:52:43 I have like 1.3 and I still have plenty of space 17:52:46 AnMaster: I'll make a note 17:53:18 Slereah: 12tb 17:53:23 Deewiant, I think it continues loading rest of program like if it was trefunge: incrementing z 17:53:26 but not 100% sure 17:53:30 I'm just going to have 130gb+1TB, heh. 17:53:33 Former for OS. 17:53:33 ah yes, starts at 0. 17:53:37 AnMaster: I guess it's a good thing to test anyway 17:53:37 (SSD, hopefully) 17:53:38 But then again, it's under 1000 17:53:45 So it might actually be 11. 17:54:06 11178,12 GB 17:54:10 Slereah: Well, that's real-bytes. 17:54:16 HDs use marketing-bytes. 17:54:17 :P 17:54:26 Deewiant, it certainly doesn't ignore it like newline is ignored in unefunge at least, nor does it store it literal into funge space and just continue loading. 17:54:28 SELLS BETTER 17:54:34 marketing uses metric kilobytes, not binary kibibytes 17:54:35 Deewiant, there is some test case included with cfunge for it btw 17:54:39 forgot filename 17:54:41 ais523: yes 17:54:50 "Silencing your scroll mouse." 17:54:52 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 17:55:01 now that's just ridiculous 17:55:04 I like it when I can hear my mouse and keyboard 17:55:14 "Not because the silencing effect but because the feel the mouse gets That it gets more silent is just a bonus! " 17:55:16 ehird, I had one ages ago that was very loud, but that was an old PS/2 logitech one 17:55:19 well, okay, that's slightly less ridiculous 17:55:20 otherwise it's less obvious whether I actually managed to press the button or not 17:55:27 ais523: you'd like a model m/das keyboard 17:55:35 BAM BAM BAM WORLD ENDING CLATTER NUCLEAR REACTION CRASH BANG 17:55:38 the model m keyboards are world-famous as being the best ever 17:55:41 yes 17:55:42 I had one 17:55:45 although I've never seen one 17:55:47 but I broke one of the arrow keys 17:55:50 and the power supply fucked up 17:56:02 ehird, the keyboard had a separate power supply? 17:56:05 no 17:56:06 the power cable 17:56:08 I meant 17:56:39 I thought keyboards used power from PS/2 (or for modern ones USB, which wouldn't be relevant in this case) 17:56:51 ah, the mod makes the scrollwheel smooth 17:56:53 which is nic 17:56:53 e 17:57:02 AnMaster: er 17:57:05 I meant the ps2 cable 17:57:07 sorry 17:57:07 ah 17:57:17 * AnMaster is typing on a PS/2 keyboard atm 17:57:35 ais523: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/ModelM.jpg 17:57:36 works like a charm, after many many years 17:57:50 I'd give you a video but it's youtube 17:58:03 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoWXuVdlKZw&fmt=18 anyway 17:58:05 ehird, used one once. Very nice feeling 17:58:13 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUzReqjyNfQ&fmt=18 das keyboard) 17:58:19 well, this keyboard is part of my laptop 17:58:21 AnMaster: hard to type on 17:58:46 ehird, not really 17:58:55 weak fingers AnMaster 17:58:58 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoWXuVdlKZw&fmt=18 anyway <-- fast typer though 17:59:15 very 17:59:33 ehird, did it even make sense or was it just random garbage on screen 17:59:41 it looked like senseful typing 17:59:48 it was meant as an example of real world typing too 17:59:48 it was almost movie typing (see tv troupes) 17:59:53 the guy says he's used a model m for 15 years, IIRC 18:00:08 given that they're so famous, why did IBM stop making them? 18:00:33 ais523: they weren't famous when they stopped 18:00:38 also: expensive to make 18:00:41 not everyone likes the loudness 18:00:49 and they're VERY BIG 18:00:55 I would like the feeling without the loudness 18:00:59 ditto 18:01:00 and big size is a plus 18:01:01 well 18:01:03 for me 18:01:04 a bit less feeling 18:01:06 AnMaster: I mean, non-keys 18:01:10 it has huge padding around it 18:01:21 ehird, true, but that is not much of an issue 18:01:26 sure it is 18:01:28 too big for a desk 18:01:33 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 18:01:35 ehird, I would prefer a good hand rest 18:01:41 I rest my hands on the desk :P 18:02:01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-WdHYoHEDk&NR=1&fmt=18 ← hthis is what a model m sounds like really 18:02:04 the other ones are too loud 18:02:12 the twangy sound sucks 18:02:45 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=befAQ6BVNGM&NR=1&fmt=18 18:02:46 this looks godly 18:02:49 I'm annoyed that pretty much all semi-good keyboards don't come in 105-key layouts :-/ 18:03:31 * ehird browses cherry.com's range of keyboards 18:03:50 Only in 104 or occasionally in 108 18:03:59 hm 18:04:03 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW \(#_é)/"). 18:04:08 Deewiant, which is the 105 one 18:04:22 AnMaster: Count :-P 18:04:25 well 18:04:31 Deewiant, which is the extra key 18:04:33 It's what you've probably got 18:04:37 AnMaster: <>| 18:04:41 mhm 18:04:46 I have that one yes 18:05:04 * AnMaster has whatever the normal Swedish full size keyboard layout is called 18:06:07 104 is http://www.cooltoyzph.com/image/US_Keyboard_layout.jpg 18:06:54 Deewiant, what about F-keys and so on 18:07:03 AnMaster: It's the same 18:07:07 aren't they counted as part of the layout 18:07:08 meh 18:07:10 Yes they are 18:07:24 Deewiant, then what about laptop keyboards with the fn thingy instead of numerical keyboard 18:07:35 They're not over 100 keys now are they 18:07:40 80-something 18:07:47 well I never heard them called 80-something 18:07:53 Hello, world! I am typing to show how fast my typing is and this is important for me so that I can show how fast my typing is, actually I'm doing it to show the noise level of my keyboard but that's how it goes isn't it? Yes indeed it is and thusly I end this typing (can you tell I'm recording? I bet you can. Blah blah blah blah qwerty.) Fake error. Etc. 18:08:12 * ehird listens. 18:08:13 Yep, it's loud. 18:08:37 ehird, was that was the person typed or what? 18:08:42 No. 18:08:44 meh 18:08:44 It was what I was typing. 18:10:09 AnMaster: Anyway, http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/KB_Japanese.svg/800px-KB_Japanese.svg.png is 108-key 18:10:29 meh 18:10:32 MEH 18:10:34 And also somewhat annoying 18:10:51 Heh. 18:10:57 Japanese quotation marks 18:10:58 Deewiant, what I really want is 105 but with separate Meta, Super, Alt an Ctrl keys on each side 18:11:17 well one alt could be altgr I guess 18:11:19 How do you mean separate 18:11:55 Deewiant, some programs act as if meta and alt were same, and some programs act as if they were separate. emacs is an example of the former 18:12:16 oh hyper key too iirc? 18:12:28 Be careful that you don't run out of room for a space bar :-P 18:12:56 AnMaster: emacs knows the difference between meta and alt, but if you don't have a meta it maps alt to meta 18:13:00 Deewiant, I would make up for it by not having any Fn. If laptops manage to fit it in... 18:13:07 ais523, ah that explains it 18:13:36 xmodmap didn't manage to do the trick in X for me, and of course it doesn't solve it outside X at all 18:14:44 you can put control where capslock is 18:14:53 I don't, but lots of AnMaster-attitude people do 18:15:11 I put backspace where capslock is 18:15:18 Deewiant: what do you put where backspace is? 18:15:20 well I don't often use capslock so maybe 18:15:23 ais523: Capslock 18:15:38 great way to confuse people 18:15:42 ssd\sad\'a\s'\as\sad\'asd\asd\'a\sd'\as'da[]f;l[wlfpawfgkqfjeiorafgioafjlaf jklbfjlqwfjnkjtklqwrhjakwfhjklrjkrf krjlzfaklgdsjklg jdlkjhdltk;jnfkrj lafhdkr hlgdfkjlg fdjql gios;hgl j;l jfogjh o;s jgio;e jpgos;oi jrg;js;gj ;oj g;l lwk el; gj;klgj ar;ogj gkom ;ops ps0'gk eorkg [p'sjfg ag 18:15:44 anyway how do you do this outside X 18:15:45 Super fast typing. 18:16:16 The stupid groove on the caps lock key annoys me very much, I might add 18:16:18 or even inside X (so that it works) 18:16:22 I have my model m lying around 18:16:24 but its ps2 18:16:28 PS2 is better 18:16:30 Deewiant, ah yes, why does it have that 18:16:33 Since you get NKRO 18:16:39 Deewiant, NKRO meaing 18:16:53 PS/2 isn't hotpluggable safely 18:16:54 AnMaster: Presumably since people were pressing caps lock accidentally... so instead of solving the problem they make the key harder to press 18:16:59 http://www.dansdata.com/images/clicky2/ergo1280.jpg Ergoclick 18:17:00 AnMaster: n-key rollover 18:17:07 Deewiant: wut 18:17:09 PS/2 isn't hotpluggable safely <-- I know, it caused system resent when I tried it once 18:17:14 Gone for a sec -> 18:17:15 Deewiant, and what does that mean exactly 18:17:26 AnMaster: you were lucky, in theory it can burn out the motherboard 18:17:29 Where sec = 10 mins actually -> 18:17:34 ais523, heh 18:17:42 ais523, it was on an old computer 18:18:02 AnMaster: n-key rollover <-- what does that mean, any idea ais523 18:18:15 I don't know either 18:18:28 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollover_(key) 18:18:35 Certain high-end keyboards have "n-key rollover". This means that each key is scanned completely independently by the keyboard hardware, so that each keypress is correctly detected regardless of how many other keys are being pressed or held down at the time. [3] 18:18:44 yeah cuz i press 50 keys at once all the time 18:18:50 well... you don't get that in PS/2 18:18:54 at least not in all of them 18:18:56 well, I actually did some experiments on that a while back 18:18:59 the most you need is 5 keys held at once 18:19:03 wait, 6 18:19:10 most keyboards can distinguish either 2 or 3 keys at once, depending on which they are 18:19:11 windows-menu-alt-control-shift- 18:19:17 and any number of modifier keys 18:19:22 I have a PS/2 and it can't handle more than like 2 normal keys, and a few modifiers 18:19:50 and it can't handle shift, up left 18:19:58 which was needed in some game (forgot which) 18:20:09 luckily I could remap them 18:20:17 i love the idea of getting an expensive silent pc then using a model m 18:20:38 oklopol: The wrong part is that the function ends with a commented "more_stuff();" call and a fixed "return null;", while it should return the move the bot wants to make. 18:20:43 ehird, that is a rather different noise, not a constant noise in the bg 18:23:06 * ehird grabs model m 18:25:00 -!- Gracenotes has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:25:00 -!- ineiros has quit (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:25:02 http://www.dansdata.com/images/clicky2/ergo1280.jpg Ergoclick <-- interesting. How does it work 18:25:13 like any other ergonomic keyboard 18:25:31 ehird, you take it apart in two parts? 18:25:35 I have no idea 18:25:57 yes 18:26:13 what is the round thing at the top 18:26:30 the hinge 18:26:37 oh not fully apart then 18:26:38 bbl food 18:26:42 you can detach it 18:28:28 My hypervisor at work has this split-at-the-middle in-two-parts keyboard, and self-built plywood-or-something meter-long sticks-of-sorts taped into them, so that he can just keep his hands down on each side of his chair, and the keyboards are sort-of like ___/H\___ where H is the chair, ____ is the floor, / and \ are the keyboard halves with the sticks, and this picture is from the front (or behind) the chair. 18:28:31 this model m is love 18:29:59 AnMaster: You /need/ PS/2 for NKRO 18:30:14 The USB protocol can only handle 6 keys at once, it's an arbitrary limitation 18:30:30 So even if your keyboard can handle it your OS can't unless you write your own keyboard driver 18:30:35 -!- ineiros has joined. 18:31:49 no ps 2 on this computer 18:31:49 -!- neldoreth has quit ("Lost terminal"). 18:31:51 so I can't use my model m 18:31:57 -!- neldoreth has joined. 18:31:58 Sucks to be you :-P 18:32:17 what about through a PS/2 to USB adapter? 18:32:21 pet peeve: no Windows key or equivalence 18:32:23 ais523: don't have on 18:32:24 e 18:32:28 and the computer shop is closed 18:32:48 * ehird bashes the model m excessively 18:32:51 RAAAAAAAAR 18:32:58 it's invincible 18:33:36 ais523: Doesn't matter 18:33:44 he was talking to me 18:33:57 True that 18:34:50 from rolling my hands like a maniac I conclude that the model m can support typing speeds up to 500wp 18:34:50 m 18:35:50 can your hands? 18:35:54 :-) 18:36:48 -!- Asztal_ has joined. 18:37:56 * ehird records the keyboard-rapage 18:40:17 my hands are red 18:40:28 aw shit i snapped a nail 18:43:41 Deewiant, ah interesting 18:44:39 fizzie, keyboard on the side sounds crazy 18:44:52 jwz does it 18:45:03 and not ergonomical 18:45:12 ehird, [citation needed] 18:45:12 what, one keyboard piece at each side? 18:45:15 that's ergonomic 18:45:20 ehird, of the chair 18:45:22 ... 18:45:33 AnMaster: citation: 18:45:34 sec 18:45:41 http://jwz.livejournal.com/493388.html 18:45:48 I don't see how it wouldn't be ergonomic; certainly it's more natural to keep your hands on your sides than in front of you in a dog-begging-for-food pose. 18:46:11 ah like that 18:46:37 The ones he uses aren't bolted on the chair, but other than that I guess the principle is rather similar. 18:46:37 I thought you mean arms hanging straight down the sides and the keyboard in vertical position 18:46:39 :/ 18:47:34 * ehird wonders alterantives to ps2→usb conversion 18:48:57 ais523, is serial cable safe to hot plug assuming device at other end is turned off? Just wondering 18:49:15 AnMaster: yes 18:49:15 (since I assume turning on the device later is safe, it wouldn't make sense if it wasn't 18:49:18 ) 18:49:22 in fact, it's safe to hot-plug even if the device is turned on 18:49:26 heh ok 18:49:28 RS232 is very tolerant to all sorts of things 18:49:32 ais523, what about VGA cables 18:49:52 I don't know whether they're meant to work in theory, but IME they do in practice 18:50:25 same, and it saved me a few times when some headless computer oopsed 18:50:27 or similiar 18:50:45 actually not oopsed last time, just silent death of anything network related 18:52:54 http://jwz.livejournal.com/493388.html <-- that's a CRT at the top of the pic isn't it 18:53:10 dunno 19:03:10 http://www.evertype.com/standards/csur/seuss.html 19:03:12 <3 19:04:00 * ais523 ponders the idea of C-INTERCAL as a kernel module 19:04:19 so you can cat INTERCAL programs to /proc/compile-intercal, and read the equivalent C back from it 19:04:44 ais523, does darcs have issue with moving one file and then adding a different file with the same name as the old name of the first file being done in a single commit? 19:04:49 have any issue* 19:04:57 or even has* I guess 19:04:59 AnMaster: use darcs mv to move the one file 19:05:11 ais523, I mean both being done in one commit 19:05:14 darcs has no trouble with that 19:05:17 as long as you told it about the move 19:05:26 like darcs mv a b; touch a; darcs add a 19:05:29 or whatever 19:05:32 yep, that should be fine 19:05:43 ais523, right, svn seems to get confused by it 19:05:53 so would most humans 19:06:11 ais523, well I did it recently in bzr with no issues either for bzr or me 19:06:18 -!- Alicce has joined. 19:06:30 hi Alicce 19:06:39 hi :) 19:06:43 what brings you here? 19:07:19 curiosity i guess 19:07:21 :) 19:07:27 heh 19:07:28 esolangs or esoterica 19:07:33 fungot: give me some nonsense 19:07:35 ais523: installing now. :) just had to check the source addr there. since i didn't bother packing any necessities ( sleeping bag or anything). 19:07:36 if it's the latter you've come to the wrong place 19:07:54 wow, fungot that almost made sense... 19:07:55 ais523, was when double including a c file (named as .h) to create two versions of the code. 19:07:55 ais523: everyone invents the game when learning about portal culling your e-mail address, 19:08:04 .. 19:08:13 :-D 19:08:16 AnMaster: ah, ok 19:08:38 and yes, if you play too much Portal your email stops working, that's why millions of people all across the world have made their own versions 19:09:05 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:09:13 i thought he meant everyone invents the think-about-it-and-lose gmae 19:09:14 game 19:09:19 as an alternative to Portal, maybe 19:09:37 Gracenotes: ps, you lost 19:09:53 ehird: you know, that connotation never crossed my mind 19:09:59 my The Game defences seem pretty good 19:10:00 ais523, http://rafb.net/p/3ptqcK43.html 19:10:01 even though I don't play it 19:10:12 $ bzr log -v -r656 19:10:13 ------------------------------------------------------------ 19:10:14 revno: 656 19:10:16 timestamp: Fri 2009-04-03 23:20:20 +0200 19:10:19 message: 19:10:21 Add support for multiple hash libraries. 19:10:22 ... 19:10:22 added: 19:10:25 lib/libghthash_fspace/cfunge_mempool.c 19:10:27 lib/libghthash_fspace/ght_hash_table.h 19:10:29 lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_functions.c 19:10:29 this will be long 19:10:31 lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_table.c 19:10:33 renamed: 19:10:35 lib/libghthash_fspace/cfunge_mempool.c => lib/libghthash_fspace/cfunge_mempool_priv.h 19:10:35 ais523, bzr didn't like me trying to renaming the directory they were in at the same time 19:10:37 lib/libghthash_fspace/ght_hash_table.h => lib/libghthash_fspace/ght_hash_table_priv.h 19:10:38 lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_functions.c => lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_functions_priv.h 19:10:41 lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_table.c => lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_table_priv.h 19:10:43 modified: 19:10:45 lib/libghthash_fspace/cfunge_mempool.h 19:10:47 src/funge-space/funge-space.c 19:10:48 lib/libghthash_fspace/cfunge_mempool_priv.h 19:10:51 lib/libghthash_fspace/ght_hash_table_priv.h 19:10:52 like lib/libghthash_fspace -> libghthash 19:10:53 lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_functions_priv.h 19:10:54 lib/libghthash_fspace/hash_table_priv.h 19:10:57 (my new anti-rafb strategy) 19:11:02 ehird: I hope pasting AnMaster's entire commit message in-channel was an accident 19:11:09 ehird, that's your own issue 19:11:10 19:10 ehird: (my new anti-rafb strategy) 19:11:14 -!- Alicce has left (?). 19:11:19 ais523, it refused to do that with modified files in the directory 19:11:28 ehird, well let me rafb my xorg.conf... 19:11:33 AnMaster: shure 19:11:44 ehird, it's 480 lines with comments 19:11:49 :P 19:11:52 sure thing 19:11:56 AnMaster: go for it, probably it's a good idea to not put it somewhere permanent because it isn't of permanent interest 19:11:59 well it is you who spammed then not me 19:12:06 you spammed my inner logreader. 19:12:09 hmm... wait for lament to get back first, though, so we can kick you 19:12:19 lament never kicks anyone just threatens <3 19:12:20 ais523, you mean kick ehird indeed 19:12:24 (now he'll kick me to prove me wrong) 19:12:27 ok lets wait for fizzie then 19:12:44 well, I'm pretty sure fizzie /has/ kicked ehird in the past 19:12:46 fizzie AnMaster's provoking me kick him. 19:12:50 ais523: I requested once 19:12:57 ais523: Dunno if he's done it again 19:13:00 anyway 19:13:21 I just pastebinnned a file, not my fault ehird decides to paste it in channel then 19:13:32 MOD SUCKUP FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT 19:14:13 http://rafb.net/p/WkUSTs47.html 19:14:40 ais523, what do you think? 19:14:49 /quit 19:14:51 meh 19:14:53 :P 19:15:01 it was worth a try anyway 19:15:04 AnMaster: why not take screenshots of all the relevant GUI configuration tools instead/ 19:15:13 rafb doesn't take screenshots 19:15:22 and most image hosters leave images around 19:15:22 ehird, there are other temporary services 19:15:32 ehird: I was busy trying to combine two flamewars... 19:15:42 ais523: :D 19:15:44 oh I know 19:15:55 I will convert the screenshot to a dataurl 19:15:59 then pastebin that on rafb 19:16:00 :D 19:18:19 -!- neldoret1 has joined. 19:18:32 odd that "Alicce" person 19:18:33 just left 19:18:37 meh 19:18:43 yes, because we didn't talk about magick. 19:18:44 maybe she came to the wrong channel 19:18:52 ah 19:18:59 he or she, you can't know on irc 19:19:09 alice is a female name. 19:19:20 AnMaster: you can have a female nick but a male name 19:19:24 and "she" is often correct then 19:19:27 ehird, But is Alicce too? 19:19:30 -!- ehird has changed nick to VANESSA. 19:19:32 in #nethack, I use people's character genders when determining pronouns 19:19:33 AnMaster: hostname was alice 19:19:38 meh 19:19:44 no 19:19:46 -!- VANESSA has changed nick to ehird. 19:19:46 ident was 19:19:47 ... 19:19:50 w/e 19:20:22 ais523, that would different between different games 19:20:25 yes 19:20:29 so? 19:20:59 please refer to me as an it from now on 19:21:06 ais523, and how do you handle a male chaotic valkyrie (damn amulet of changing...) 19:21:11 it says we should call it an it 19:21:15 should we call it an it? 19:21:26 AnMaster: "male" 19:21:30 mhm 19:21:35 AnMaster: why does the chaotic matter? 19:21:45 ais523, no, but that was another mishap 19:21:46 also, ais523 refers to themself as "they" whenever possible 19:21:52 still ascended though 19:22:06 a friend suggested "fat tub of lard" as a generic pronoun 19:22:18 fat tub of lard says we should call fat tub of lard a fat tub of lard 19:27:57 racecar is a palindrome and no one told me! 19:28:03 i want one :| 19:28:12 G.E.B. mentions t 19:28:13 it 19:28:28 well that would've been one expensive book 19:28:56 oklopol, make a script which searches for them all and lists that 19:28:58 or something 19:29:06 trivial 19:29:09 a 10-liner 19:29:11 yeah 19:29:15 ehird, that was my point 19:29:34 afk 19:30:35 i think that's a very hard problem, algorithmically 19:30:42 :D 19:31:08 IST OO 19:31:33 * oklopol write palindrome checker in clue 19:31:41 -!- neldoreth has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:32:54 oklopol: do you have a clue interp yet? 19:33:24 no, just increasingly more confidence in the concept 19:33:42 although i still feel like it could explode any second 19:34:10 that some things simply require either somehow brute forcing the exact definition, or aren't doable at all. 19:34:19 i mean 19:34:53 brute forcing as in forcing an exact definition by making all expressions in the body into separate functions 19:35:04 or something like that 19:35:20 $ perl -ne'$_ = lc $_; chomp; print $_, "\n" if $_ eq reverse($_)' /usr/share/dict/words 19:35:30 malayalam 19:35:43 no racecar o_O 19:35:53 my /usr/share/dict/words isn't all that good 19:37:03 $ perl -ne'$_ = lc $_; chomp; print $_, "\n" if $_ eq reverse($_) && length($_) > 3' words 19:37:07 ↑ riff-raffless 19:37:22 $ perl -ne'$_ = lc $_; chomp; print $_, "\n" if $_ eq reverse($_) && length($_) > 3' words | uniq 19:37:27 to handle things only differing in case 19:37:32 golfs welcom 19:37:33 e 19:39:00 riff-raffless isn't a palindrome 19:39:08 http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p255166222.txt 19:39:14 that is one goddamn hard language 19:39:18 ais523: lol no 19:39:31 oklopol: :DD 19:39:36 does it work 19:39:39 but i love the syntax, and the concept 19:39:49 oklopol and I have been working on it secretly for ages 19:39:54 yarr 19:39:55 not secretly 19:39:56 oklopol's been doing the work, I've been shouting encouragement 19:39:58 he's talked about it a lot 19:40:01 ah, ok 19:40:02 umm 19:40:04 no not really 19:40:08 well a bit 19:40:12 but mostly in /msg 19:40:13 well yesterday 19:40:19 http://www.vjn.fi/oklopol/clue.txt 19:40:21 i asked about this 19:40:22 ages ago 19:40:23 when i suddenly decided to publish it 19:40:25 ah! 19:40:54 yeah okay, but anyway, mostly it's been secret, since i felt like changing my vaporware image :P 19:41:10 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:%22The_most_important_thing_in_the_programming_language_is_the_name._A_language_will_not_succeed_without_a_good_name._I_have_recently_invented_a_very_good_name_and_now_I_am_looking_for_a_suitable_language.%22 19:41:10 but, meh, taking too long, need the small fame of vapor ;) 19:41:14 you deleted it! 19:41:14 I have the best mix, I think, real langs with real implementations /and/ vaporware 19:41:16 * ehird recreates 19:41:21 ehird: yes, it was spammy 19:41:23 heheh 19:41:26 and lots of people didn't want it there 19:41:28 ais523: it was being worked on :-( 19:41:30 especially as it had no useful content 19:41:39 and no it wasn't, obviously 19:41:42 no, it was 19:41:43 ais523: i have real implementations and real langs, although very few 19:41:44 you said a few minutes, it was there for weeks 19:41:59 it was a bung-attractor for hype and ridicule that would simmer it down into a language 19:42:01 very clever 19:42:05 i'm such a perfectionist when it comes to languages 19:42:09 now i have to recreate it to restart the naturamachine 19:42:16 oklopol: well, I can be too 19:42:40 the trick is to release an imperfect lang and have a vaporware version which is meant to be perfect 19:42:43 which is why it's vaporware 19:42:48 heh 19:43:16 oklopol, any interpreter for it 19:43:27 also I rememeber ais talking about a lang like that 19:43:30 AnMaster: no, but i'll try speccing on sunday 19:43:35 but in more English kind of 19:43:43 non-modular thing 19:43:49 this is very different 19:44:00 both is brute forcing definition 19:44:08 though this is more modular 19:44:11 or? 19:44:35 the concept of guessing programs is a very general concept 19:44:46 true 19:44:57 it just hasn't been done a lot, so just doing it twice seems like the same thing 19:45:09 yeah 19:45:17 I can't think of any other langs like that 19:45:31 of course the reason it hasn't been done is it's a really stupid idea pretty much anywhere except here :P 19:45:44 yeah 19:46:58 oklopol: so how does clue infer 19:47:03 please tell me it uses an ai 19:48:14 i try to put my languages between "pure declarativity", that is, giving absolutely no clue about what to do, and "imperativity", where you tell the interp exactly what to do, kind of a bad term, since haskell would be imperative too 19:48:21 that's the least explored area afaik 19:48:43 make a language based on inferring infers 19:49:05 ehird: basically you can just brute force the bodies, there should be no need for making an intelligent implementation. 19:49:30 if you need speed, optimization must be done manually, it's kinda like prolog in this sense 19:50:01 make a lang based on optimizing a program that does everything 19:50:12 dangerous optimizations, by reducing everything that you don't want to do into a nop 19:50:33 i have many ideas about languages where you teach the deduction engine how to infer functions based on io-pairs, but that's still very experimental 19:51:11 this is more about giving the correct io-pairs 19:52:02 giving just random palindromes and non-palindromes will not work, even if the body of a palindrome checker was accidentally generated, it would be discarded. 19:52:10 er why 19:52:25 because it doesn't work by generating bodies and then trying them. 19:52:46 how does it work 19:53:24 it works by generating code that links all clues on level 3 to a clue on level 2, then running those bodies, making sure you reach a clue on level 1, then level four is tried for checking correctness 19:53:51 :D 19:53:53 the running phase runs the whole recursion, some predefined amount of steps, until base cases, or failure 19:55:24 it works as long as your functions are really simple, but the beauty is unlike with a system that requires intelligence from the interp, here your functions just need to be simple in function body, not in semantics 19:55:49 so you can't do complex stuff 19:55:49 ? 19:56:03 so enough modularity is necessary, and thus also guaranteed, pretty much making this a perfect language 19:56:21 ehird: you can, i just said it in a very philosophical and mysterious way. 19:56:22 the language does not allow any large complex chunk 19:56:32 everything has to be broken down into small chunks 19:56:33 but they can have complex interactions 19:56:39 yeah 19:56:39 oklopol: so do you have an interp :P 19:56:52 the way in which they interact also has to be simple, but it can be structured over several layers so it becomes complex overall 19:56:57 spec on sunday, imp on X-day :) 19:57:06 spec before imp?! 19:57:09 oklofail 19:57:15 :P 19:57:30 you're probably right. 19:57:35 maybe imp on sunday 19:57:37 spec never. 19:57:41 coffee now. 19:58:12 kofeNAO 20:01:00 the problem is while it can do something like a static complex splicing and dicing of the arguments easily, it is very sucky at having any kinds of actual control structures 20:01:10 but well 20:01:19 oklopol: how about making examples have 'aliases' like 20:01:27 "abc"->poop('ab')+poop('bc') 20:01:40 where it acts just like you put the result in, but uses them as hints, sort of 20:02:22 err 20:02:47 ehird, wut 20:03:00 try explaining that again, maybe 20:03:06 yeah 20:03:36 okay in the example sections instead of just input->constant you can do input->expr, now this expr can call other functions, and it just subtitutes the value BUT it remembers the structure you gave it, so that its end implementation will call the functions etc in the same way 20:04:00 so "abc"->poop('ab')+poop('bc') would be "abc"->7, but the end function coming out of it would make those calls to poop and + when you give it that input, and others, when it generalizes 20:04:01 ehird: do realize i'm a bit wary of your suggestions, you usually have ideas i don't really like that much but which you consider much better than mine ;) 20:04:18 but err 20:04:19 hmm 20:04:22 this gives you function calls and control structure and etc while still not breaking the inferring stuff 20:05:06 actually i have that already, as syntactic sugar 20:05:12 right 20:05:16 but mine takes it beyond that 20:05:23 since it remembers the example structure and applies it to its generated function 20:06:26 what do you mean applies it to its generated function 20:06:46 oklopol: let's say we have a reverse() function which reverses a string 20:06:49 and the examples 20:07:06 "abcd"->reverse("ab")+reverse("cd") 20:07:08 and 20:07:16 interesting reverse, but go on 20:07:21 err 20:07:26 "abcd"->reverse("cd")+reverse("ab") 20:07:28 ofc 20:07:32 "xyzf" -> reverse("zf")+reverse("xy") 20:07:33 now 20:07:34 less interesting, but go on 20:07:35 this would be the same as 20:07:39 "abcd"->"dcba" 20:07:41 and the same 20:07:42 BUT 20:07:51 it would remember the code structure of your example 20:07:52 so 20:07:55 when it generates the final function 20:07:58 it would call reverse and + 20:07:59 as part of it 20:08:05 instead of just treating them as constants 20:08:13 then generalize this to multiple examples with diff structures etc 20:08:21 can't do it in all cases, but it's a fun unification thingy 20:11:09 oklopol: geddit? 20:11:13 clue's level system is basically for doing that, except it doesn't rely on somehow extending the pattern 20:11:15 err sure 20:11:37 i mean i get it as in i understand it, probably i don't understand it well enough for you to acknowledge i understand it, as usual 20:11:42 :-D 20:11:46 :D 20:11:50 so I take that means you don't like it 20:12:04 i like it, i just feel like that's the problem and clue is the solution :) 20:12:18 i mean for the "generalize this pattern" part 20:12:22 oklopol: semantically it's identical modulo side effects 20:12:28 hmm yeah maybe 20:12:35 oklopol: it just lets you optimize with control structures etc without having a separate layer for that 20:12:37 basically that'd just be a hint for the body? 20:12:41 right 20:12:54 it's purer than having a separate thing for optimizing the implementation imo 20:13:31 err clue doesn't have that 20:13:38 you said it did 20:13:38 but umm 20:13:41 if you want to optimize 20:13:42 and: 20:13:43 wait where 20:13:53 is palindrome ~ take first, take last, drop first, drop last 20:13:58 that seems very non-example to me 20:14:13 no no i meant you just need to know what order to give examples in, and stuff, to make it fast. 20:14:17 well 20:14:22 "is palindrome ~ take first, take last, drop first, drop last" 20:14:23 what is that 20:14:30 why it's the function bag! 20:14:34 also, even so, I like my thingy 20:14:35 oklopol: wut 20:14:50 you need to tell it what it's allowed to use for the body 20:15:02 that's lame 20:15:05 it should figur that out 20:15:06 *figure 20:15:09 no it shouldn't! 20:15:18 yeah it should, and it fits in with my idea too 20:15:21 since it can use what you use 20:15:24 if you need to guide it 20:15:29 but apart from that it should figure it out 20:15:38 w/e :) 20:16:55 ehird: can you write palindrome in yours? 20:17:16 sure 20:17:18 well 20:17:19 is palindrome :: "saippuasammakkokokkammasauppias">true 20:17:20 :. "abba">true, "acba">false, "abbc">false, "abcba">true 20:17:22 : "bb">true, "cb">false, "bcb">true 20:17:24 . "c">true, "">true 20:17:24 well actually, umm 20:17:26 WOULD work except 20:17:28 it'd take 6 billion years to find a correct impl 20:17:30 so you can forget that 20:17:32 so 20:17:33 with some hints: 20:17:44 *-well actually, umm 20:18:56 eh sec 20:19:12 no hurries. 20:19:14 are the ::, :., :, and . significant, or just decorative? 20:19:22 levels 20:19:25 Asztal: significant, levels 20:19:43 heh, it's onespot, twospot, threespot, fourspot 20:19:53 yarr 20:20:13 is palindrome :: "saippuasammakkokokkammasauppias">reverse("saippuasammakko")=="saippuasammakko"&&reverse("k")=="k"&&reverse("okkammasauppias")=="okkammasauppias" 20:20:13 so it should satisfy the first level before moving onto the next one? Sort of like a prune for obviously-bad implementations? 20:20:14 :. "abba">reverse("abba")=="abba", "acba">reverse("acba")=="acba", "abbc">reverse("abbc")=="abbc", "abcba">reverse("abcba")=="abcba" 20:20:17 : "bb">true, "cb">false, "bcb">true 20:20:19 . "c">true, "">true 20:20:21 i guess 20:22:33 ehird, definition of reverse 20:22:41 irrelevant 20:27:29 if reverse is defined, then palindrome only requires two level 1 clues 20:27:33 in clue 20:27:44 well yar 20:27:50 Asztal: no not at all :P 20:27:50 I'm just saying that mine eliminates the ? 20:27:53 and etc 20:27:59 ? 20:28:11 the ?? 20:28:20 er 20:28:21 the ~ 20:28:47 right. people have a tendency to want to drop it. 20:29:06 did ais523 :P 20:29:14 of course :P 20:29:23 ais523: BAND WITH ME 20:29:41 ehird: I wasn't paying attention 20:29:48 but he wanted to take it down the purity lane, you seem to want a bit more concrete 20:30:11 imo mine increases purity 20:30:15 and also serves as optimization 20:30:21 win win 20:30:46 whellll, i disagree, but you're welcome to make your own langer 20:31:32 yours is just a half-baked aardappel ;;;;;) 20:31:40 :( 20:31:41 no'snot 20:31:46 MAYBE IS! 20:33:51 BUT WHO KNOWS BUTTS? 20:34:18 he who knows butts, does not be know to have one. 20:34:22 *known 20:35:08 well, gotta be going now, i've successfully pissed away the whole 10 or so hours i've been awake 20:35:16 actually more 20:36:44 bye 20:38:47 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:39:06 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 20:41:22 oklopol, wth is "aardappel" 20:41:58 and the next few lines make no sense to me either... 20:43:42 aardappel 20:43:47 im gonna guess its a potatoe. 20:44:06 that looks like typoed potato 20:44:16 nah 20:44:25 erdapfel is german for potatoe. 20:44:26 as for aardappel it can't be just "apple" 20:44:34 earth apple. 20:44:48 Did you mean: define:potato 20:44:50 see 20:44:51 :P 20:45:02 aardappel is dutch for potato 20:45:09 http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aardappel 20:45:24 meh 20:45:47 ahh, see. thats why 20:45:50 swedish is potatis 20:46:03 for both potato and potatoe I guess. 20:46:11 well I don't know for the latter 20:46:18 but potato is potatis yes 20:46:25 psygnisfive, ... 20:46:28 what? 20:46:35 potato == potatis 20:46:38 yes 20:46:41 thats what i just said 20:46:42 :P 20:46:58 psygnisfive, it looked like you were saying potatoe == potatis 20:47:11 potatoe is a typo. 20:47:23 psygnisfive, that looks like typoed potato nah 20:47:23 ... 20:47:29 stop contradicting yourself 20:47:40 oh, i thought you were talking about something else when you said that 20:47:43 hence why i said nah 20:47:44 :P 20:50:34 * AnMaster wonders how sane upgrading between major X releases while it is running is... 20:50:58 ais523, any idea? 20:50:59 * ehird makes Squeak look nice 20:51:36 xorg 1.3.0.0 -> 1.5.3 while xorg and KDE is running 20:51:37 AnMaster: you'd probably need to restart X afterwards 20:51:49 ais523, yes but will stuff break horribly while it is going say 20:51:53 going on, say* 20:51:58 but I've upgraded Ubuntu from major release to major release before now with X running 20:52:06 and the version of X probably changed in at least one of those 20:52:13 ais523, say I want to start a new app using X while it has recompiled half of the libraries 20:52:17 will that work 20:52:45 in an existing X session, or a new one? 20:52:45 this squeak could look passable if you gave it native window creation 20:52:50 ais523, same session 20:53:04 should probably work 20:53:11 ehird, that would be less closed world 20:53:14 less smalltalky! 20:53:15 :/ 20:53:19 Pharo is less closed world. 20:53:52 ehird, oh? 20:54:00 http://www.pharo-project.org/home 20:54:16 ehird, well it looks like it has native OS X windows 20:54:21 no. 20:54:23 just lookalikes 20:54:25 but does it look as good on *nix 20:54:31 just lookalikes, I said 20:54:33 does it use my KDE theme!? 20:54:33 there are other themes 20:54:35 :( 20:54:39 AnMaster: IT DOESN'T USE THE OS X THEME EITHER 20:54:44 it's just a theme made to look like os x 20:54:45 true 20:55:07 I hope Apple didn't copyright the GUI... 20:55:23 for pharo's sake 20:55:38 it seems Apple patented automatic updates 20:55:50 stupid software patents FTW? 20:56:01 ais523, antivirus apps had it for way longer 20:56:08 so there is prior art too 20:56:11 ais523: no, it's different 20:56:21 i don't like apple any more and even I can see through the hyperbole 20:56:23 yes it's a shit patent 20:56:29 no it's not a blanket patent on everything that updates itself 20:56:37 AnMaster: of course they did 20:56:41 but they lost in court 20:56:43 in the 80s 20:56:59 [which is bullshit, design is one of the few things that copyright can probably reasonably apply to] 20:57:03 AnMaster: of course they did but they lost in court in the 80s <-- who wut 20:57:08 apple v microsoft 20:57:10 look it up 20:57:14 20:55 AnMaster: I hope Apple didn't copyright the GUI... 20:57:15 ah 20:57:20 not update any more 20:57:21 meh 20:57:24 right 20:57:42 well, it's a patent on automatic updates without notifying the user 20:58:00 ais523, prior art: some backdoors 20:58:05 or trojans 20:58:06 well, yes 21:01:07 Monticello is nice 21:01:21 and what is that 21:01:54 ehird: actually, no, I didn't lose when you said I did 21:01:58 I just lost now 21:02:01 :D 21:02:10 * Gracenotes was away with college shopping and walking the dog 21:03:51 * AnMaster should make a bot that prints such a message at random times in this channel 21:03:53 or maybe not 21:04:50 no, people would be under the constant shadow of ulostgaemlol bot 21:05:07 and so reminding them of a situation they already knew doesn't have much effect 21:05:22 * ais523 wants to get a widespread portability survey of C-INTERCAL done 21:05:50 I know it works on: gcc, bcc (real-mode K&R C compiler), arm-linux-gcc (cross-compiler), clang, llvm-gcc 21:05:57 on x86 except where stated 21:06:46 ais523, tried open64? 21:06:53 no 21:06:57 I don't have a 64-bit system to test on 21:07:03 even though I do have an ARM emulator 21:07:05 ais523, open64 works on 32-bit 21:07:13 in fact I only have it on my pentium3 21:07:20 but not on my x86_64 system 21:07:21 what is open64? 21:07:24 a compiler 21:07:27 apt-cache turns up nothing 21:07:37 originally made for ia64 21:07:53 ais523, frontend is gcc-based, backend is not 21:07:59 iirc 21:08:26 ais523, http://www.open64.net/ 21:08:53 ais523, btw which gcc versions have you tested ick on 21:08:56 2.1 maybe? 21:09:02 4.3.2 21:09:07 ais523, no older? 21:09:10 I haven't checked on old versions, although that's a good idea 21:10:05 gcc-3.4's the oldest in the repo, I'll check on that 21:10:17 ais523, cfunge is tested on gcc 3.4.6, 4.1.2, 4.2.1, 4.3.2 and 4.3.3 (the latter two only because I happen to have both around, usually I only bother with one from each x.y 21:10:20 ) 21:10:51 ais523, and icc 10.1, open64 4.1, and svn head of clang 21:11:03 and I tested pcc and tcc and they fail totally 21:11:08 pcc especially 21:11:11 pcc failing is bad bad bad 21:11:15 I should definitely test gcc on that 21:11:19 I'm not sure if I have it handy, though 21:11:19 ais523, what? 21:11:25 why is pcc failing bad bad bad? 21:11:30 it fails at C99 that's what 21:11:39 hmm... pcc isn't in my repo 21:11:46 and it's bad because it's the default compiler on various systems 21:11:47 ais523, indeed, it is *bsd only iirc 21:11:55 why wouldn't it run on Linux? 21:12:00 I never even got it to compile hello world on linux 21:12:04 does it depend on BCD behaviour? 21:12:07 it fails at glibc system headers 21:12:10 totally 21:12:24 binary coded decimal 21:12:26 bcd 21:12:27 why doesn't it use its own 21:12:31 ais523, no clue 21:12:44 ehird: x86 has binary coded decimal instructions, nobody ever uses them 21:12:46 ais523, a bit hard to not use system signal.h 21:12:47 I guess 21:12:54 or stdio.h 21:12:58 AnMaster: bcc seems to manage it 21:13:00 as does gcc-bf 21:13:01 I mean limits.h and some stdint and such sure 21:13:21 ais523, well one is real mode, the other is cross-compiler 21:13:44 while if you want to compile native normal apps for a *nix you want to use system headers + a few compiler specific 21:13:45 admittedly, gcc-bf has problems with multiplication 21:13:49 that's the sane way 21:13:51 which is much easier than signals 21:14:32 well sure 21:14:55 ais523, anyway pcc isn't default on any OS I know 21:14:57 http://www.open64.net/faq.html is not very encouraging 21:14:59 and it fails at C99 21:15:29 ais523, indeed. open64 sucks when it comes to docs and so on 21:15:35 but point is it kind of works 21:15:54 ais523, this may be a better place to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open64 21:15:56 C-INTERCAL doesn't even depend on C89 nowadays 21:16:11 ais523, so what do you do for vsnprintf() and such? 21:16:17 that I helped you use 21:16:27 vsprintf 21:16:34 there's a config option 21:16:40 well ok 21:16:48 detected by autoconf 21:16:51 ais523, but since there is no standard for these pre-ANSI ones 21:17:00 how the heck do you know what to use 21:17:22 I mean, what functions are guaranteed to exist in pre-ANSI C? Any at all? 21:17:24 you do it via experimentation 21:17:26 Z80 has even more BCD instructions, and they're very much used by the TI calculators, since the TI float format is a BCD one. 21:17:27 meh 21:17:31 and all the ones in K&R1 are likely to exist 21:17:44 autoconf's great, though, it does the experimentation all by itself 21:18:01 ais523, iirc the BCD instructions are illegal under x86_64 21:18:06 but I may misremember 21:18:10 * AnMaster looks 21:18:47 AAA ASCII Adjust After Addition 21:18:48 Adjusts the value in the AL register to an unpacked BCD value. Use the AAA instruction after using 21:18:48 the ADD instruction to add two unpacked BCD numbers. 21:18:48 Using this instruction in 64-bit mode generates an invalid-opcode exception. 21:19:03 that last line seems to figure in several of the BCD instructions 21:20:38 ais523, ^ 21:20:38 Aw, no love for BCD. Maybe they could add some SSE-whatever instructions that operate on 32-digit BCD numbers. 21:20:49 fizzie, 4 packed 32-bit ones? 21:21:08 BOUND (check array bound) is also invalid in 64-bit mode 21:21:10 heh 21:21:25 but it seems a rather silly bounds checking one indeed 21:23:37 hm x86_64 has CMPXCHG16B 21:24:10 not a 2-word CAS though :/ it seems to require the two words to be after each other 21:26:12 -!- Mony has joined. 21:26:41 -!- Mony has changed nick to Guest34814. 21:32:15 To avoid an invalid-opcode exception (#UD) on those processor implementations that do not support the CPUID instruction, software must first test to determine if the CPUID instruction is supported. 21:32:17 haha 21:32:21 ah it's you, Guest34814, you shouldn't join with confusing nicks like Mony. 21:33:03 oklopol, isn't mony someone we have seen here before iirc? 21:33:10 err 21:33:14 no i doubt that 21:33:17 but Guest34814 is a regular 21:33:23 oh 21:33:27 nah 21:33:39 oklopol, the number is random, when you don't identify 21:33:51 -!- ais523 has quit ("rebooting after kernel upgrade, I'll be back soon"). 21:33:57 services auto-changes your nick after a timeout 21:34:04 there is some option to turn it on 21:34:16 /ns help set enforce 21:35:42 -!- Guest34814 has changed nick to M0ny. 21:35:48 sorry ^^" 21:37:28 -!- M0ny has quit ("test"). 21:37:56 -!- M0ny has joined. 21:38:20 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:38:46 sweet 21:38:51 autochange nick 21:40:41 M0ny, just set your client to use M0ny by default then 21:41:16 silly faked version 21:41:32 and broken reply tp 21:41:34 too* 21:41:43 -M0ny- VERSION clientIRC 0.1 monyOS [Intel/480,00GHz] 21:41:48 there is a space too much 21:41:54 there should be no such space 21:43:37 Is it possible to dump a web page as a nicely formatted plain-text file with no word-wrapping (one paragraph per line) but simultaneously so that
tags don't turn to absurdly long lines? Both "lynx -dump" and "w3m -dump" do word-wrapping, and both have options to control column width (-width for lynx, -cols for w3m) but *both* turn make absurdly long hr lines if I specify an absurd width to avoid wrapping. (At least lynx only writes a thousand _s, w3m see 21:43:37 ms to do something like 20000. 21:45:59 I guess I can just undo the wrapping, that'll be easier. 21:47:08 But that would mess things like lists where there are newlines that I actually want. 21:48:23 fizzie: Just strip tags? 21:48:47 "elinks -dump 1 -dump-width " does an equally silly thing about
. 21:49:12 "but *both* turn make absurdly long hr lines" 21:49:18 err grammar 21:49:26 Just remove the "turn" or something. 21:49:31 indeed 21:49:44 I guess I could strip hr tags and dump. Stripping all tags leaves me with the suboptimal whitespace in the HTML file. 21:49:51 fizzie: If hr is your problem then... yeah 21:50:09 Well, hr is the only problem with "absurd width output" I've seen so far in this. 21:50:15 fizzie, why not dump and strip the _____ 21:50:39 Well, I guess I could do that too. Or rather, normalize it to some sensible size. 21:50:52 [22:41] M0ny, just set your client to use M0ny by default then <-- I prefer Mony with a o instead of the 0 21:53:03 fizzie, crazy idea: curl http://example.com/ | html2latex | latex2lyx | lyx -e 'buffer-export "Plain text"' 21:53:08 or something like that 21:53:21 I can't find any latex2text 21:53:22 or such 21:53:28 may exist 21:53:57 and wouldn't work with pipes but need to load from files 21:56:44 Simple w3m -cols 10000 -dump ... | sed -re 's/^━+$/--------------------/' seems to do a reasonably sensible output. 21:57:12 meh, a less crazy command :( 21:58:12 There's something weird about w3m spacing in that there's a table of contents done (ugly) with and lines "" and if I do -cols 1000000 it outputs a thousand spaces between "N." and "Nth chapter title". 21:58:49 I guess it makes tables 100% wide 21:58:52 yeah 21:59:33 Probably, although with -cols 10000 there's just a few spaces in there; I mean, there's no need to allocate much extra width to that first column. 22:00:54 ais523: greenity 22:02:04 debian bug tracking sux 22:08:54 ais523: I just ran into an actual write-only thing 22:09:01 yes? 22:09:19 when we last discussed those we couldn't think of any 22:09:20 is my point 22:10:02 Okay, the w3m output is acceptable. (I'm turning some html files into plaintext for reading on the DS; have to leave tomorrow at around 06am to an Easter trip to Eastern Finland.) 22:10:52 fizzie: can't you get an html viewery thinger for it 22:11:18 Probably, but I've habitualized myself with the moonshell text-viewer, which is a bit idiosyncratztic but otherwise okay. 22:11:29 port w3m to it ^_^ 22:11:44 I think DSOrganize already has some sort of HTML renderer, but it's less nice. 22:11:59 Besides, I think it corrupted the FAT once. 22:12:06 Could've been some other program too, though. 22:13:21 ais523: I just ran into an actual write-only thing <-- the debian bug tracker? 22:13:36 no 22:13:39 oh 22:13:42 what then 22:13:48 a monticello repository 22:14:08 "Monticello (pronounced [mɒntəˈtʃɛloʊ]), located near Charlottesville, Virginia, was the estate of Thomas Jefferson" 22:14:10 huh 22:14:11 http://www.wiresong.ca/Monticello/ 22:14:13 and yes I did google 22:15:32 how is it write-only? 22:15:48 or a specific such repo being that 22:16:16 one specific repo 22:16:24 interesting, which one 22:16:57 sm://, which is just a protocol for copying monticello repos to make a SqueakMap releas 22:16:57 e 22:17:40 "Now please type 'make' to compile. Good luck." 22:17:43 — ./configure 22:17:52 i appreciate your thoughtfulness! 22:18:06 who puts that at the end of a configure, I wonder? 22:18:15 it's only one extra line in autoconf, although you have to write it by hand 22:19:11 ais523: this thing has bolded section headings for different parts of the configure 22:19:14 so it's quite tweaked 22:19:18 it would be two extra lines in cmake (one to import a standard module for summary at end, another for the message) 22:19:24 the first line in the .ac: 22:19:24 dnl Hey Emacs, I want this in -*- Autoconf -*- mode, please. 22:19:31 ehird: that's not really tweaked 22:19:39 i know 22:19:40 it's just a case of adding extra commands, which is easy 22:19:41 it just amused me 22:19:43 that's just being silly 22:19:45 :D 22:19:51 silly in a great way that is 22:20:01 AM_CONDITIONAL(WITH_EMACS, test "$EMACS" != no) 22:20:10 if you don't have it it compiles 10x slower because it doesn't like you. 22:20:46 WITH_EMACS? in /Automake/? 22:20:56 does it build elcs, or something? 22:21:04 or maybe install .el files, that's saner 22:21:24 ais523: .el, yeah 22:21:34 it has an emacs mode 22:21:37 also, autoCONF 22:21:45 ehird: AM_ implies it's using automake 22:21:50 automake requires some hooks in the autoconf file 22:21:54 ah 22:21:55 which is what you're seeing there 22:23:15 hey 22:23:17 AnMaster: ais523: 22:23:18 http://libsigsegv.sourceforge.net/ 22:23:20 segfault handler 22:23:27 GNU project, too 22:23:39 has portability considerations 22:23:58 Copyright 1998-1999, 2002-2008 Bruno Haible 22:23:59 Copyright 2002-2005 Paolo Bonzini 22:24:05 the bullied-by-rms guy and the guy who wrote this autoconf 22:24:05 :-D 22:25:52 -!- akiross has joined. 22:26:02 hello 22:26:27 hi 22:26:36 hey, ehird :) long time no see 22:26:49 i've been busy with exams for a while :S 22:27:02 akiross: who are you? 22:27:15 ais523: he's been in here before 22:27:17 irc 22:27:18 ow, i joined some weeks ago... 22:27:18 iirc 22:27:32 sorry, we haven't forgotten you :P 22:27:34 least I haven't 22:27:49 :D thanks i'm not really present on irc 22:28:22 don't remember akiross 22:28:23 meh 22:28:40 ehird, interesting this libsigsegv 22:28:42 st> true become: false 22:28:42 Object: true error: Invalid value nil: object is read-only 22:28:44 BOOOOOOOOOORING 22:28:47 (gnu smalltalk) 22:28:48 AnMaster: yes. 22:29:02 actually i think i presented myself only to few ones :S 22:29:14 ehird, I much prefer the feather way of making true always have been false, all the time along 22:29:26 AnMaster: true havenBecome: false 22:29:34 (yes, that's grammatically correct) 22:29:34 heh 22:29:51 ehird, what would the "haven" mean 22:30:11 i'm developing a sort of assembly language for oo message passing and i'm here to learn something :) that's all 22:30:15 "My brother and I, having destroyed the nuclear reactor," 22:30:19 haven X is in the sense of having there 22:30:20 wel 22:30:23 maybe havingBecome: would be better 22:30:25 ais523: thoughts? 22:30:28 mhm 22:30:51 ehird: haveBeen: 22:31:05 ais523: hasBeen: surely 22:31:10 but that implies too recent imo 22:31:32 true hasAlwaysBeen: false 22:31:44 ehird, even better, would be this: "if (a == 1) a haveBeen: 1; else a haveBeen 0; 22:31:48 or something like that 22:31:51 hm 22:31:58 ais523, Feather is TC to parse right 22:32:07 well yeah 22:32:09 have to be 22:32:11 duh 22:32:25 AnMaster: actaully, no, it parses very simply 22:32:36 it just recursively parses itself several times after it's been parsed once 22:32:40 ais523, couldn't you do same parse-tc thing as in perl really 22:32:45 Well, it's nice that it's someone else who's had to think about how to port that sigsegv handling; there seem to be some specialization involved for almost all (os, architecture) pairs in it. Also it doesn't do what I want in jitfunge (not surprisingly, since it's such a peculiar need), which is to fake the stack underflow so that it skips the faulting instruction, "returns" a zero, and counteracts the effect of any instructions that moved the stack pointer. 22:32:45 It seems that a libsigsegv handler can only resume execution if it manages to make that location of memory usable. (It could be used for growing the stack, though.) 22:32:47 hm ok 22:34:16 (I guess you could use it for stack underflow by allowing the stack to grow to the "wrong" direction too, and add some mapped pages with zeroes.) 22:35:16 meh 22:35:26 but it seems useful for other stuff 22:35:39 I might end up doing something like that in cfunge some day 22:35:59 well for upward only I guess 22:36:16 that's why i mentioned it 22:36:22 since popping a zero has high overhead then 22:36:30 and pop on empty stack is very common 22:36:33 in funge apps 22:36:41 at least those I write and in mycology 22:36:47 exactly 22:36:50 you talked about it yesterday 22:36:55 and I said I knew of a portable lib 22:37:07 Common, schmommon; I guess it's common with the weenies who use {}. :p 22:37:14 wut 22:37:42 If you don't use {} and it is a real program, there's always something relevant on the stack and you're not going to be underflowizing it. At least that's what happens to me always. 22:37:46 ehird, indeed 22:38:06 fizzie, I often do n 22:39:22 Yes, well, if you do n in a long-living program, either you are storing in funge-space something that you could as well keep on stack, or you're inside a {} block. Well, again, that's what I feel, anyway. 22:39:26 AnMaster: what I mean with Feather is that the first pass is always trivial, because it's just tokenising into letters 22:39:28 the rest happens at runtime 22:40:44 * ehird types 2+2, middle clicks, Print it, gets 2+24 22:43:38 ais523, heh 22:44:18 ais523, write a first stage parser then. I mean do you ever plan to spec, or even implement feather? 22:44:24 btw why the name feather for it 22:44:37 ehird, that's a silly way to print it 22:44:39 sorry, i've to go! Bye 22:44:43 AnMaster: not really 22:44:48 it's how smalltalks work 22:44:49 -!- akiross has quit ("Leaving"). 22:44:52 albeit most print a space before the output 22:45:01 that would make sense yeah 22:45:11 ehird, which smalltalk is this btw 22:45:14 gnu 22:45:19 http://smalltalk.gnu.org/ 22:45:23 conclusion: lamer than squeak 22:45:25 wasn't it the file based one 22:45:59 yes 22:46:14 which does have certain advantages though 22:46:42 anyway I'm not comfortable with IDEs. I prefer a text editor 22:46:50 I have used various IDEs yes 22:46:59 yes, well, that's an excellent way to get completely nothing out of smalltalk 22:47:11 its world, its OS is its IDE; just like Unix is an IDE 22:47:14 ehird, and sure if you have an extensive class library, say Java or .NET then an IDE is nice to keep track of things 22:47:23 i don't think you understand 22:47:29 probably 22:47:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 22:47:53 ehird, but do you want an IDE when coding C for example 22:48:03 yes, I want my IDE to be unix 22:48:07 or just a reasonable text editor with some syntax highlighting 22:48:16 my editor is vim and it integrates into my IDE called unix 22:48:17 ehird, that's an interesting way of describing it 22:48:24 emacs! 22:48:29 AnMaster: it describes the unix philosophy perfectly 22:48:29 vim sux 22:48:30 meh 22:48:37 emacs is its own IDE 22:48:41 not as good as unix, I find 22:48:58 ehird, actually I have been using kate for editor a lot recently 22:49:06 does it have an equivalent of vim's :! ? 22:49:13 if so, it's an editor for the ide unix 22:49:30 ehird, clicking "yes I'm sure I want to quit"? wait no that was :q! hm 22:49:37 what was :! then 22:49:44 :! filters the selection/document through a unix command 22:49:56 ehird, no clue, nothing I used anyway 22:50:00 reverse the document? :!tac 22:50:03 I use sed in konsole 22:50:05 remove all {s? 22:50:12 :!sed 's/{//' 22:50:15 admittedly, you can do that with / 22:50:17 in vim 22:50:21 but sed is smaller for some things 22:50:26 :!perl -pe'...' 22:50:28 :!awk ... 22:50:35 etc 22:50:40 amazing power 22:50:45 ehird, it does have a built in mini terminal emulator, konsole lite 22:50:49 kind of 22:50:59 which I don't ever use 22:51:01 that isn't really the same thing 22:51:23 true 22:51:26 well then, no idea 22:51:33 and this is kate for KDE 3.x 22:51:36 so could differ a lot 22:53:29 ehird, yes there seems to be such a feature, but rather hard to use 22:53:46 then it's not much of a unix app :-) 22:54:08 ehird, well Ctrl-AltGr-+ to get Ctrl-\ is bulky IMO 22:54:17 I guess that depends on keyboard layout 22:54:24 wut 22:54:37 ehird, Ctrl-\ enter command hit enter 22:54:45 that is how you do the filter thing in kate 22:54:51 ah 22:54:53 after selecting text 22:54:54 that is 22:54:58 not sure about whole file 22:55:02 I guess Ctrl-a first 22:55:24 ehird, it does have one nice feature: autocompletion based on existing words in the document 22:55:28 I find that very useful 22:55:29 old 22:55:31 vim has that 22:55:33 has for ages 22:55:45 you can even rebind to be smart: completes or indents based on your context 22:55:45 ehird, true, but as a pop up as you type 22:55:48 yes 22:55:49 it has that 22:55:52 it comes as a dropdown 22:55:57 it's all just a copy of IntelliSense 22:55:59 ehird, that looks like KDE style 22:56:04 :P 22:56:06 AnMaster: if you have a kde vim gui, yes. 22:56:08 (ok that isn't fair) 22:56:11 ehird, meh 22:56:16 also, vim can have language-specific completion files too 22:56:25 so you can complete builtins 22:56:35 ehird, vim can't have sane keybindings thogh 22:56:37 though 22:56:43 sure it can, you can rebind anything 22:56:48 yes, it's modal, that's a feature 22:56:52 ehird, to remove the two-mode bit 22:56:56 the composition of commands is beautiful and expressive 22:56:57 AnMaster: three. 22:56:57 can I rebind it like that 22:57:00 visual mode for selection. 22:57:00 well three 22:57:07 also, I have some insert-mode bindings 22:57:08 but can I rebind that away 22:57:11 like ^A/^E from emacs/bash 22:57:18 AnMaster: no because it defeats the point 22:57:27 "Can I run IE on Linux? Also I want Outlook and viruses." 22:57:29 ehird, then vim isn't for me, I want a single mode editor 22:57:31 "No." 22:57:39 ehird, you can run IE on linux 22:57:42 it works under wine 22:57:47 Whooooooooooooooosh! 22:57:51 I haven't tried though 22:57:52 Normal, insert, replace, reverse insert, visual, visual line, visual block, operator-pending, command-line 22:58:17 anyway I like emacs and kate better 22:58:28 AnMaster: your loss 22:58:30 and yes I tried vim 22:58:33 t ell me when you switch to unix 22:58:35 I used it ages ago 22:58:38 instead of the bad copies 22:58:59 anyway I think you can rebind in kate 22:59:03 just haven't bothered 22:59:09 you certainly can in emacs 22:59:22 yep there is a dialog for it 22:59:49 there is a "google selection" heh 23:00:10 (you can add your own commands btw, either simple script or full-fledged plugins) 23:00:18 ehird, iirc plugins is hard in vim 23:00:23 No 23:00:27 there are many vim plugins 23:00:33 cd ~/.vim/plugin; wget foo 23:00:38 load in your .vimrc 23:00:40 as in say auto completion is a plugin you can select in some configuration location 23:00:42 Well, but it is 'hard' 23:00:49 To make them, that is 23:00:58 Deewiant: not really 23:01:02 not if you don't use vimscript 23:01:08 well for emacs it is easy to make them, a bit harder for kate 23:01:16 ehird: I've heard the APIs for non-vimscript are crippled 23:01:17 ehird, vim still seems rather monolithic 23:01:24 Deewiant: Beats using vimscript 23:01:27 AnMaster: It's not, in practic 23:01:28 e 23:01:38 ehird: Point being you have no choice since you can't do stuff without vimscript 23:01:43 hah 23:01:47 Deewiant: Do bits in vimscript and call out to it 23:01:48 Duh 23:01:57 that sounds horrible 23:02:11 bbl 23:02:20 AnMaster: If there isn't one of many plugins that do what you want you have obscure needs anyway 23:02:35 ehird: And yeah, that's already making it something other than 'easy' IMHO 23:02:45 Deewiant: Well, then writing emacs plugins isn't easy either. 23:03:04 http://items.sjbach.com/560/extensibility-in-vim-and-emacs 23:03:15 I know 23:03:16 I read it 23:03:19 I disagree with most its points 23:04:43 It's mostly the points in 2 that seem problematic 23:05:19 Although not all of them are quite pointful 23:05:42 (Point vi in particular is a bit of a joke) 23:05:50 POINT VI OLOLOLOL 23:06:59 -!- neldoret1 has quit (Client Quit). 23:07:06 -!- neldoreth has joined. 23:08:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:08:30 -!- neldoreth has quit (Client Quit). 23:08:41 -!- neldoreth has joined. 23:11:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:12:15 Heh, 01am and the alarm clocksies are set for 05am to have enough time for packing and getting to the train place. Night, and habby easter-time; probably won't be much here until late Sunday-night. (Although there should be wlan in the hotel; but wouldn't count on that.) 23:12:33 fizzie: bye 23:13:39 fizzie, cya 23:19:13 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
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