00:00:02 <ehird> So I have to change its config.
00:00:04 <ehird> ais523: that's os x
00:00:18 <ais523> the problem seems to be that nothing's listening at your end on 5688
00:00:27 <ais523> as a test, you might want to set up a quick netcat listener
00:00:32 <ehird> ais523: of course it is
00:00:36 <ehird> I connected via nibbles
00:00:37 <ehird> (UNKNOWN) [91.105.116.151] 5688 (ggz) : Connection refused
00:00:40 <ehird> that's an error from ggz
00:00:47 <ehird> otherwise, how does it know it's ggz?
00:00:52 <ehird> I doubt it's in a DB somewhere
00:00:59 <ais523> there's a massive DB of what port's what in Ubuntu
00:01:21 <ehird> ais523: try it on another thing
00:01:24 <ehird> try it on google.com
00:01:39 <ehird> and see if you get the same error
00:01:53 <ais523> localhost [127.0.0.1] 6667 (ircd) : Connection refused
00:02:01 <ehird> Lemme try from os x
00:02:09 <ehird> [ehird:~] % nc localhost 5688
00:02:21 <ehird> [ehird:~] % telnet localhost 5688
00:02:22 <ehird> telnet: connect to address ::1: Connection refused
00:02:26 <ehird> telnet: connect to address fe80::1: Connection refused
00:02:28 <ehird> Trying 127.0.0.1...
00:02:30 <ehird> telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused
00:02:32 <ehird> telnet: Unable to connect to remote host
00:02:39 <ehird> Either Ubuntu's firewalling it,
00:02:48 <ehird> ais523: how can I tell iptables to let that through?
00:03:08 <ais523> there's an iptables command-line frontend, it's great
00:03:25 <ais523> still connection refused
00:03:32 <ais523> did you run the ufw command?
00:03:40 <ais523> "sudo ufw status" will tell you the firewall config
00:04:07 * ehird changes config, restarts VM.
00:04:09 <ehird> Hopefully, this will just work.
00:04:14 <ehird> If not, let's use the official server.
00:04:25 <ais523> what version is the VM running, by the way?
00:04:41 <ais523> coppro: incidentally, I wrote the AI for the latest version of Nibbles, which is in Jaunty and also Intrepid, I think
00:04:57 <ehird> ais523: I hate that AI.
00:05:16 <ais523> well, it's much the same as before, except that it doesn't randomly suicide like the old one used to
00:06:17 <ehird> ais523: No success?
00:06:59 <ais523> $ nc 91.106.116.151 5688
00:07:04 <ehird> ais523: you can start the actual game
00:07:11 <ais523> which IP do I aim for?
00:08:58 -!- iano has joined.
00:09:51 <iano> What is the largest program ever written in an esoteric language?
00:09:59 <ehird> iano: there are many autogenerated ones
00:10:04 <ehird> me and ais are there
00:10:07 <ais523> coppro: ehird and I went over to the official server
00:10:12 <iano> I mean by hand
00:11:42 <ehird> I had to change the networking stack thing
00:12:06 <ehird> it freezes on connect!
00:12:10 <ehird> ais523: coppro: :|
00:12:34 <ehird> Error connecing to server: No such file or directory
00:12:36 <coppro> that's nearly unplayable
00:12:44 <ais523> I've just killed the game
00:12:55 <ais523> and yes, it's running rather slowly...
00:12:57 <ehird> coppro: what's your IP?
00:13:03 <coppro> the one I posted above
00:13:07 <ehird> should I run it on rutian?
00:13:18 <ais523> server Ubuntu == desktop Ubuntu
00:13:21 <ais523> coppro: ehird's server
00:13:32 <ehird> coppro: my server, dead atm but ais523 had root on it a while ago
00:14:24 -!- iano has quit.
00:15:02 <ehird> yay, almost got it working
00:15:27 <ehird> /etc/ggzd/games contains no nibblse
00:15:31 <ehird> I must have to install nibbles-server or sth
00:15:44 <ehird> gnome-games-servers
00:15:51 <ehird> this should be nice and fast
00:15:55 <ehird> HOLY SHIT THAT"S A LOT OF PACKAGES
00:16:00 <ehird> it's gonna install X11
00:17:12 <ehird> Just one lil' bit of config should do it.
00:17:27 <ais523> so, what's the Xorg.conf on rutian like?
00:17:34 <ais523> I don't even know what you put there for a server
00:17:46 <ehird> ssh can forward it
00:17:51 <ehird> so, only non-device-related stuff
00:18:36 <ais523> what's rutian's IP, again?
00:19:22 <ehird> and will probably be slower than the ggz thing
00:19:29 <ehird> i'll avoid heavy ircing ;)
00:20:52 -!- ehird has set topic: This is rutian, who cares? | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
00:21:28 <ais523> shall we try 2-player until coppro notices, to test the connection?
00:21:41 <ehird> vm lag + network lag + rutian lag
00:22:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:23:26 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:23:55 -!- coppro has joined.
00:24:08 <ehird> # Any additional game arguments specific to this room
00:24:15 <ehird> what's the arg to pass to gnibbles? :P
00:24:26 <ais523> I didn't even know it took settings on the command line
00:24:51 <ais523> This program only accepts the standard GNOME and GTK options.
00:24:55 <ehird> ais523: I figured it out
00:25:20 <ehird> PlayersAllowed = 2..6
00:25:22 <ehird> AllowSpectators = 0
00:25:24 <ehird> seems relevant, I guess.
00:25:30 <ehird> ExecutablePath = /usr/lib/ggz/gnibblesd
00:25:32 <ehird> # Set ExecutableArgs in the room file
00:25:37 <ais523> there's no AllowChangePreferences, or whatever
00:26:36 <ehird> "GGZ Community database access is not possible."
00:26:46 <ehird> http://www.ggzgamingzone.org/
00:27:29 <ehird> Server administrators can find instructions and recommendations here.
00:27:30 <ehird> Server Hosting Guide: HTML, PostScript, text
00:27:32 <ehird> Grubby Chatbot Admin Manual: HTML
00:27:33 -!- schlangen1 has quit ("Leaving.").
00:27:34 <ehird> Package Dependency Graph: PostScript, PNG
00:27:36 <ehird> Database design: HTML
00:27:38 <ehird> server hosting guide!
00:28:08 <ehird> http://www.ggzgamingzone.org/gameservers/gnibbles/
00:28:42 <ehird> ais523: just play at regular speed?
00:29:12 <ais523> incidentally, GGZ's doc referred me to Gnome's
00:29:17 <ais523> which referred me to a redlinked page on a wiki
00:29:33 <ais523> on which server? rutian?
00:31:22 <ehird> just wanted to set a description
00:35:59 <ais523> it's no good, I didn't even figure out which worm I was before the game ended
00:36:32 <ehird> ais523: what? it didn't end
00:36:37 <ehird> I was still playing....
00:36:44 <ais523> obviously must have desynced due to lag
00:36:55 <ehird> eh, worth another try
00:37:55 <Ilari> Aww... No nibbles here...
00:38:16 <ais523> it's no good, there are cherries inside walls, about three target doughnuts, and I keep crashing into nonexistent objects
00:38:39 <ehird> There are no walls.
00:38:41 <ehird> Just the outer ones.
00:38:49 <ehird> ais523: Methinks we need to be on the same level settings!
00:39:03 <ehird> ... it stands to reason: if we both pick the same speed, magic!
00:39:27 <ehird> ais523: Speed: finger-twitching good. Don't enable fake bonuses, don't play levels in random order.
00:39:37 <ais523> http://imgur.com/Ak.png
00:39:44 <ais523> ehird: the setting it was playing on /aren't my settings/
00:39:56 <ehird> Well, if you set it to that, maybe it'll work.
00:39:59 <ehird> Just one more try like that?
00:40:31 <ehird> ais523: also, you host
00:40:34 <ehird> then I'll be the one with the glitches :P
00:42:23 <ehird> and I keep bashing into fake things
00:42:27 <ehird> and jumping around
00:43:01 <ehird> ais523: I'm bashing into you
00:43:21 <ais523> you're purple, and I just won
00:43:31 <ehird> ais523: There's only red and green.
00:43:33 <ais523> <Gnibbles> Game over! The game has been won by ais524!Game over! The game has been won by ais524!Game over! The game has been won by ais524!Game over! The game has been won by ais524!
00:43:38 <ehird> I got no such message.
00:43:41 <ais523> I customized the colours for player 2
00:43:47 <ais523> because they keep confusing me with the walls
00:44:01 <ehird> So, um why does this suck so much
00:44:06 <ais523> hey, settings | preferences work now
00:44:11 <ais523> and my guess is because nobody ever tested it
00:44:15 <ehird> ais523: set it to full speed and level 1
00:44:19 <ehird> and no fake things
00:44:30 <ais523> it's set like that already
00:44:48 <ehird> LEt's try the official serve.r
00:46:12 <ehird> ais523: are there walls for you?
00:46:14 <ehird> I just have the border
00:46:25 <ais523> i get standard level 1
00:46:52 <ehird> are you really short?
00:47:09 <ehird> it's flooding me with I-won messages
00:47:13 <ehird> and glitches on the screen
00:47:16 <ais523> I just won, according to my Nibbles
00:47:24 <ehird> ais523: how about we just VNC?
00:47:27 <ais523> ok, I am so going to have to fix Nibbles some day
00:47:27 <ehird> that'd be more reliable...
00:47:33 <ais523> and how would that work?
00:47:41 <ehird> ais523: you log in to my session and use player 2 keys
00:47:49 <ais523> which program do I use?
00:47:55 <ehird> well, I need to find a server first!
00:48:16 <ehird> ais523: remote dekstop viewer
00:48:33 <ais523> yep, I was wondering about that one
00:49:12 <ais523> system | preferences | remote desktop
00:50:21 <ais523> "configure network automatically to accept connections" is probably Gnomese for opening the port
00:50:46 <ehird> ais523: I don't trust those things
00:51:32 <ehird> ais523: try 91.105.116.151
00:52:05 <ais523> I just get a big black screen
00:52:19 <ais523> with no sign of being able to do anything with it
00:52:43 <ais523> $ nc 91.105.116.151 5900
00:52:45 <ais523> (UNKNOWN) [91.105.116.151] 5900 (?) : Connection refused
00:53:40 <ehird> I wonder what gconf thing it is
00:55:01 <ais523> hahaha, I just connected to myself, it's pretty
00:55:30 <ais523> still a black screen, nc doesn't work
00:57:21 <ehird> vncTCP59005900192.168.1.159
00:57:50 <ehird> ais523: here, can you configure your NAT?
00:57:58 <ehird> maybe I should connect to you
00:58:07 <ais523> ehird: I have no control over the router here
00:58:19 <ehird> ais523: ssh tunnel?
00:59:05 <ais523> I'd need an account on a server somewhere
00:59:33 <ehird> % telnet 127.0.0.1 5900
00:59:33 <ehird> Trying 127.0.0.1...
00:59:35 <ehird> telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused
00:59:37 <ehird> telnet: Unable to connect to remote host
00:59:39 <ehird> It's the fuckin' VM!
00:59:46 <ehird> ais523: firewall incantation plz
00:59:57 <ehird> figured it out before you said it
00:59:58 <ais523> you can be more detailed than that if you like
01:00:14 <ais523> not refused, now hanging
01:00:20 <ais523> maybe it's waiting for you to confirm?
01:00:27 <ehird> ais523: Nope. I'll enable that and try
01:00:44 <ehird> ais523: disconnect/reconnect
01:00:56 <ais523> getting connection refused again
01:01:19 <ehird> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
01:01:29 <ais523> check the syslog for firewall messages/
01:03:03 <ehird> ais523: any ideas?
01:03:49 <ehird> ais523: locally connecting works
01:03:50 <ais523> ehird: put up netcat listeners on 5900 on both your main computer and VM
01:03:55 <ais523> let me netcat to them and see what happens
01:03:58 <Ilari> Sniff the connection and see if the SYN gets through? If it does, its local firewall problem.
01:04:32 <ehird> % telnet localhost 5900
01:04:34 <ehird> telnet: connect to address ::1: Connection refused
01:04:36 <ais523> if you like, and give me permission, I'll portscan you to see what happens
01:04:38 <ehird> telnet: connect to address fe80::1: Connection refused
01:04:40 <ehird> Trying 127.0.0.1...
01:04:42 <ehird> telnet: connect to address 127.0.0.1: Connection refused
01:04:44 <ehird> telnet: Unable to connect to remote host
01:04:46 <ehird> Okay, it's the fuckin' VM.
01:04:52 <ehird> anyone can portscan me, it's a free internet :P
01:05:03 <ais523> yep, but I don't like portscanning people uninvited
01:05:10 <ais523> and raise eyebrows when someone portscans me
01:05:22 <ais523> mostly the University, I get portscanned whenever I connect to wireless or access my email
01:05:54 <ehird> ais523: i'm the kind of person who runs a wireless network with zero security enabled on purpose :-)
01:06:19 <ehird> ais523: try connecting now.
01:06:34 <ehird> ais523: what did we do when I did nibbles?
01:07:00 -!- MizardX- has joined.
01:07:14 -!- MizardX has quit (Connection timed out).
01:07:22 <ehird> maybe os x is firewallin' it
01:07:34 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
01:09:14 * ehird fullscreens Ubuntu
01:09:19 <ais523> nc works, providing the right response
01:09:25 <ehird> ais523: try with vnc
01:09:25 <ais523> I'm trying to connect now
01:09:36 <ais523> do you have a confirm prompt up?
01:09:42 <ehird> No, it's OS X not Ubuntu
01:09:55 <ais523> oh, should I install vnc then?
01:10:00 <ehird> ais523: do you have a password option?
01:10:16 <ehird> I think you may have to input my pass
01:10:20 <ehird> which I can change temporarily to let you in
01:10:29 <ais523> no password option on the main connect
01:10:36 <ais523> I sort-of got the impression that the Ubuntu method asks later
01:10:44 <ais523> I'll install vnc if you like
01:10:46 <ehird> ais523: anything in the edit connection things?
01:11:07 <ais523> no, there isn't an edit connection thing
01:11:17 <ehird> install a full vnc client, I guess
01:11:23 <ais523> just a connect button which asks for the IP, and what sort of connection (connect full-screen, do you want to control the remote desktop)
01:11:36 <ehird> select no to control
01:11:53 <ais523> then I couldn't play, just watch
01:11:58 <ehird> I know, but it's a start
01:12:10 <ais523> I just get a black screen
01:12:19 <ehird> install a full vnc client
01:14:09 <ais523> it's asking for a username/password
01:14:20 <ais523> wait, no, just password
01:14:52 <ais523> (if me's online, he'll be wondering why I just said "a password" to him...)
01:15:37 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving").
01:15:45 <ehird> ais523: if it doesn't work & you can edit the connection details, set username = ehird
01:16:05 <ais523> ok, I clicked "connect" and nothign obviously happened
01:16:18 <coppro> okay... this is starting to annoy me
01:16:30 <coppro> DO .1120 <- "&'"¥'":1120 ~ '#0 ¢ #65535'" ¢ #0' ~ '#0 ¢ #65535'" ¢ ":1120 ~ '#65535 ¢ 0'"'" ~ "#0 ¢ #65535" is apparently a parse error :/
01:16:41 <ehird> ais523: any luck setting the username?
01:16:54 * ehird changes password back
01:16:56 <ais523> the entire program's disappeared into a notification area icon
01:17:19 <ais523> yes, and not what I expected at all
01:17:25 <ais523> I was expecting it would, you know, show me your desktop
01:17:41 <ais523> the session was "opened"
01:17:48 <ais523> deiconizing it just gave me the main connections list
01:17:56 <ehird> right click the icon?
01:18:02 <ais523> gave me a list of connections
01:18:04 <ehird> boy, I want to hit someone with a usability stick...
01:18:07 <ehird> ais523: choose mine?
01:18:19 <ehird> ... >_< try another client
01:18:33 <ais523> seems like a good option
01:18:54 <ehird> this is ridiculous.
01:19:04 <ehird> ais523: let's play gnibbles over irc
01:19:08 * ais523 finds another VNC client
01:19:12 <ais523> ehird: if only that worked!
01:19:32 <coppro> ais523: can you see if that works on C-INTERCAL?
01:19:34 <ehird> ais523: left nop nop nop up nop nop nop nop nop nop right
01:19:53 <ais523> coppro: OK, I'll test it
01:21:34 * ehird puts password back to anbutt
01:21:39 <ais523> ehird: trying now, I was just dealing with coppro's problem
01:21:50 <coppro> ais523: Okay, it's not just CLC-... now to figure out why
01:21:57 <coppro> I've rebuilt that statement twice :/
01:22:38 <ais523> ehird: I get an error, "You have been disconnected"
01:22:53 <ehird> ais523: username=ehird?
01:23:02 <ehird> did you select Control? Don't :-P
01:23:12 <ais523> and there wasn't a Control setting on this one
01:23:15 <ehird> with the new password I gave?
01:24:05 <ais523> coppro: there's a literal 0 in there
01:24:09 <ais523> you meant #0, almost certainly
01:24:31 <ehird> what client you using ais523
01:24:32 <ais523> ehird: oops, I typoed the port
01:24:51 <ais523> now it's just doing a loading animation
01:25:15 <ais523> I'd expect it to have loaded by now, though...
01:25:19 <coppro> ah, yay, the statement evaluates
01:25:24 <coppro> wrong result though :(
01:25:24 <ehird> ais523: what client?
01:25:32 <ais523> gtkvncviewer, the third I've tried
01:25:53 <ehird> Iwill try it myself
01:26:04 <ais523> "Expression is (((((? (((:1120 & 0x55555555) << 0x1) ~ 0x55555555)) $ 0x0) & (:1120 & 0xaaaaaaaa)) >> 0x1) ~ 0x55555555)"
01:26:23 <ais523> coppro: that looks very wrong to me
01:26:40 <ais523> that left-hand select appears to be selecting all 0s
01:27:02 <ais523> still doing loading animation...
01:27:45 <ais523> ok, it just said "You have been disconnected"
01:27:54 <ehird> lemme try an os x client
01:29:41 <ais523> coppro: actually, that might be a bug in C-INTERCAL; it should have noticed that that whole part of the expression cancels out
01:29:53 * ais523 suddenly realises that it probably did notice, but didn't do anything about it
01:38:29 -!- jix_ has joined.
01:41:07 <coppro> ais523: What do those symbols translate to?
01:41:25 <ais523> the others are the same
01:41:40 <ais523> although that's a mix of INTERCAL and C
01:42:19 <ais523> I don't think you're doing anything that wouldn't work in C-INTERCAL's CLC-INTERCAL compatibility mode
01:42:32 <ais523> although I didn't even have to set compat mode for that, I just encoded it as Latin-1 and C-INTERCAL did the right thing
01:42:37 <coppro> :1120 is an interleaving of two one spots (call em .1 and .2); I'm trying to get (C code) .1 & ~.2
01:43:22 <ais523> the standard way would be to just translate the & and the ~ separately
01:43:25 <ais523> what are you trying to do?
01:43:59 <coppro> select .2 out of :1120, interleave with 0, perform unary XOR to negate it, select the result out, interleave with .1 (which needs to be selected out) and unary AND it
01:44:14 <coppro> then select the result
01:44:17 <ais523> unary XOR after interleaving with 0 doesn't negate something
01:44:22 <ais523> you probably want to interleave with 65535 instead
01:45:42 * ais523 notes that people who primarily use CLC-INTERCAL tend to say "interleave", whereas C-INTERCAL users are more fond of "mingle"
01:46:08 <coppro> oh boy, that doesn't work
01:46:18 <ais523> run it through the expression-explainer?
01:46:28 <coppro> I know what the problem is, thankfully
01:46:48 <coppro> or I know what it should be
01:47:00 <coppro> I'm interleaving something with > 16 bits
01:47:21 <ais523> both are correct, it's just interesting to see which people use
01:47:41 <coppro> I'd use the expression-explainer if I was any good at interpreting it
01:47:50 <coppro> and I don't have C-INTERCAL
01:48:12 <ais523> that surprises me, it's rare to see someone with CLC but not C
01:48:41 <coppro> I haven't found the Ubuntu packaging for C, and I'm lazy
01:48:47 <ais523> sudo apt-get install intercal
01:48:58 <ais523> it's a couple of versions old, IIRC
01:49:19 <ais523> that's the latest stable version
01:49:31 <coppro> ah, it's just intercal
01:49:37 <coppro> I kept looking for c-intercal
01:50:00 <coppro> oh, now I find out I had it all along :/
01:50:12 <ais523> the trick is to type the filename, and let command-not-found sort it out
01:50:55 <ais523> The program 'ick' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing:
01:50:56 <ais523> sudo apt-get install intercal
01:50:58 <ais523> bash: ick: command not found
01:51:31 * ais523 would be so amused if someday there's a Debian alternatives entry for intercal
01:51:32 <coppro> how is this an error? '":1120 ~ '#0 ¢ #65535'" ¢ #65535'
01:52:06 <ais523> a visual inspection shows nothign wrong
01:52:34 <ais523> and nothing wrong comes up under syntax highlighting
01:52:43 <ais523> is that the whole expression? is the statement it's in fine?
01:53:09 <coppro> yeah, I pulled that out of the other expression
01:53:25 <coppro> one of the interleaves is producing >32 bits, but I don't think that's possible
01:53:47 <ais523> nope, you're only selecting 16 bits in the select
01:53:58 <ais523> so I don't see how the output could be too large
01:54:28 <ais523> I was thinking of the mingle bit-width hack that C-INTERCAL uses, but the expression looks right both ways
01:55:35 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:58:25 <coppro> how do I run that expression analyzer?
01:58:45 <ais523> either ick -Og and look at the output C code, or ick -Oy to run it interactively
02:02:47 -!- neldoret1 has joined.
02:06:21 <coppro> Where are the debugger docs?
02:08:26 -!- neldoreth has quit (No route to host).
02:08:29 <coppro> specifically, how do I get it to explain?
02:08:41 <ais523> the docs are behind the ? key
02:08:43 <ais523> but e and a line number
02:08:46 <ais523> will give you an explanation
02:12:51 <coppro> oh right now I remember!
02:14:15 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
02:14:54 <coppro> confused coppro is confused
02:15:08 <ais523> what's the problem? with the debugger, or your code?
02:15:19 <coppro> I tried the expression on C-INTERCAL
02:15:30 <coppro> and it too is giving me an overflow error
02:15:39 <ais523> can you paste the expression, again?
02:16:09 <coppro> oh, I'm just extremely retarded
02:16:27 <ais523> you assigned the result to a 16-bit variable by mistake?
02:16:28 <coppro> I thought it was an interleave error; I was assigning a 32-bit value to a one psot
02:18:08 <coppro> this is almost as bad as GCC's C++ error messages
02:18:49 <ais523> yes, INTERCAL error messages tend not to be particularly helpful
02:19:15 <coppro> does C-INTERCAL accept the yen?
02:19:24 <ais523> yes, if it's encoded in Latin-1
02:19:34 <ais523> it assumes CLC-INTERCAL source if it sees it in Latin-1
02:19:37 <coppro> CLC is accepting my code now, but C isn't
02:19:47 <ais523> if you encode it in UTF-8, it interprets it as mingle because it's a currency symbol
02:31:53 <ais523> well, you don't need to tell all us about it!
02:32:11 <FireFly> According to the rules, I have to :)
02:32:20 <FireFly> This is my current surrounding
02:33:17 * oerjan never loses the game because he forcefully keeps his brain too dense to understand it
02:35:27 * coppro is surprised he made an easy-to-correct error in INTERCAL
02:35:53 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
02:39:20 <coppro> Yay! Addition's working!
02:40:49 <coppro> Jaunty finally got the wireless light on my computer working!
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03:37:05 <ais523> quick #esoteric poll: if you don't want to use / to delimit a regex for some reason (e.g. if it contains lots of slashes), what character do you most often use instead?
03:39:14 <ais523> wow: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/54c90bb925b9d331#
03:39:27 <ais523> it's like a Yahoo Answers question, only programming-related and on Usenet
03:40:58 <ais523> I seriously /hope/ that c.l.c post was a troll, but fear it wasn't
03:41:26 <coppro> sounds like a good SO question
03:41:38 <ais523> is stackoverflow that bad yet?
03:42:32 <ais523> stackoverflow's weird, if you ask a popular question they interpret it as gaming the system and you get no reputation
03:43:26 <coppro> my most voted question is "Are there any good reasons why I should not use Python?" (originally "Why does Python suck?")
03:43:52 <ais523> and there are, of course, situations in which using Python is unwise
03:43:58 <ais523> but the same goes for any language
03:44:03 <Sgeo_> ais523, when is Python unwise?
03:44:05 <ais523> pikhq: seriously? What programming langauge do you use?
03:44:10 <ais523> Sgeo_: real-time device drivers, for one
03:44:47 <ais523> probably referring to the NUL byte
03:45:00 <ais523> which is used for end-of-string in C, and so it's inexpressible to many programs
03:45:18 <pikhq> It's a perfectly cromulent character in Tcl, though.
03:45:28 <ais523> it's the only character, apart from /, which isn't allowed in filenames on UNIX
03:45:33 <ais523> pikhq: yep, it's legal in Befunge too
03:46:05 <coppro> Esoteric languages tend to have less of an issue with NUL
03:46:12 <coppro> because they have no string handling to speak of
03:46:17 <ais523> however, esoteric language interps are written in real-world langs
03:46:22 <ais523> and so often inherit NUL problems
03:46:27 <ais523> Mycology tests for NUL handling for that reason
03:46:28 <pikhq> Of course, Tcl doesn't really use characters to delimit regex's; a regexp is just a string which happens to be passed as an argument to the [regex] function.
03:46:29 <coppro> if there is string handling
03:46:43 <ais523> Sgeo_: Befunge-98 conformance testsuite
03:46:44 <Sgeo_> PSOX makes extensive use of NULs
03:46:54 <ais523> half the conversations in this channel are about it, I'm surprised you missed them
03:46:56 * Sgeo_ waits to be assassinated
03:47:07 <ais523> it's one of the only large commercial-feeling esolang applicationos
03:47:24 <ais523> but tbh, the only reason it's written in Befunge-98 is because it's an obvious language to write a Befunge-98 testsuite in
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04:15:16 <GregorR> Ah, ChatZilla, that explains why reinstalling flash required that you /quit :P
04:18:23 <pikhq> No, it doesn't. Firefox uses new plugins without restarting.
04:37:38 <ais523> I know my Firefox wants me to restart whenever I upgrade a plugin
04:38:06 <pikhq> Presumably, that'd be an add-on, not a plugin.
04:38:24 <pikhq> Otherwise, I hate your distro's packaging of Firefox.
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09:17:03 <Gracenotes> hm. looks like the lolcode project is slowing down a bit.. http://forum.lolcode.com/index.php
09:17:05 <Deewiant> Mycology is commercial-feeling? News to me :-P
09:18:40 <Gracenotes> well then... that was only within a second of each other after hours of channel inactivity...
09:20:18 * Sgeo is bored on Freenet
09:20:43 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Mycology is commercial-feeling? News to me :-P <-- huh? who claimed that?
09:21:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's only around 20 lines up the lastlog
09:21:20 <Deewiant> I forgot who it was so you can look it up yourself
09:21:45 <AnMaster> lastlog... as in /lastlog mycology ?
09:22:08 <Deewiant> It's probably the next-to-last line in /lastlog mycology :-P
09:22:22 <AnMaster> plain lastlog gives syntax error in this client
09:22:42 <AnMaster> <ais523> Mycology tests for NUL handling for that reason
09:22:43 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Mycology is commercial-feeling? News to me :-P
09:23:15 <Deewiant> (And you reminded me that it was ais)
09:25:34 <AnMaster> <ais523> but tbh, the only reason it's written in Befunge-98 is because it's an obvious language to write a Befunge-98 testsuite in
09:37:17 <Sgeo> http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1138219&cid=26966727 absolutely crushed my fantasy about Freenet
09:38:35 <AnMaster> anyone here have any experience with jack-audio-connection-kit?
09:38:56 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, not here, but I suspect it might be in for example China
09:41:02 <bsmntbombdood> the developers focused on completely the wrong problem
09:42:00 <Sgeo> What is the right problem?
09:47:45 <Sgeo> I keep reading that Frost is dead
09:49:58 <Sgeo> There was a release on 3/13
09:50:01 <Sgeo> http://jtcfrost.sourceforge.net/
09:50:04 <Sgeo> Why would they do this?
09:51:07 <bsmntbombdood> low bandwidth, high latency ought to be easy to do
09:51:41 <Sgeo> Does FMS count?
09:51:43 <bsmntbombdood> to the point where you can start making guarantees
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09:55:16 <Sgeo> How would true anonymity be done?
10:02:46 <Ilari> Yeah. One could get true anonymity (at hideous computational expense) by using protocol to solve dining cryptographers problem...
10:06:02 <Sgeo> Is there a way to do that without requiring each participant to participate every round?
10:07:02 <Ilari> Well, only participants can send and receive...
10:07:31 <Ilari> Or maybe others could also receive, but definitely not send.
10:09:47 <Sgeo> How do I tell what Firefox profile is running?
10:10:03 <Sgeo> I'm not convinced that this "Browse Freenet!" icon is doing anything
10:10:22 <Ilari> Sgeo: See which profile has lock file?
10:10:44 <Ilari> Sgeo: Or maybe peek at what files firefox has open?
10:11:35 * Sgeo looks at bookmarks
10:11:51 <Sgeo> I.. think this thing found where my missing bookmarks from a long time ago went...
10:12:15 <Sgeo> That's the only way I can account for there being so few bookmarks
10:13:36 <Sgeo> ...Unless most of my bookmarks spontaneously DIED
10:14:54 <Sgeo> The Bookmarks menu only shows some of the bookmarks
10:45:11 <Sgeo> http://16systems.com/zero.php hm, social flaw with the experiment: Who'd reveal that they can break that sort of thing?
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13:32:31 <oerjan> <ais523> quick #esoteric poll: if you don't want to use / to delimit a regex for some reason (e.g. if it contains lots of slashes), what character do you most often use instead?
13:32:58 <oerjan> it's been a while, but | i think, or maybe !
13:36:24 <Deewiant> Sometimes I use \ just to be funny
13:37:27 <oerjan> my slashes interpreter uses !
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14:10:10 <fizzie> I use # for some reason.
14:10:49 <fizzie> And occasionally something like s{...}{...} in Perl.
14:11:45 <oklopol> what's the context for the question?
14:11:48 <fizzie> Though that pretty much only with the x modifier and multi-line expressions.
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14:13:37 <oklopol> i mean in what situation can you choose what to delimit a regex with?
14:14:48 <oklopol> okay, guessed correctly, still division by zero ofc
14:15:51 <oerjan> (and probably vi then)
14:16:45 <fizzie> sed lets you do it, too. At least this sed.
14:17:27 <fizzie> For the s command, anyway. Maybe not for the address part.
14:17:53 <oerjan> well that's probably for vim too
14:18:31 <oerjan> you need some prefix to know that there _could_ be an "arbitrary" character
14:18:59 <fizzie> Right. Perl needs the 'm' there -- as in "$foo =~ m#...#" -- whereas with // you can just write it plain, when doing plain old matching.
14:19:18 <oerjan> fizzie: stop writing what i was about to say :D
14:19:37 <fizzie> Maybe you should just write faster!
14:20:06 <oklopol> i was actually going to explain this whole thing to myself, but you were too quick.
14:20:26 <oerjan> maybe i should take up one of those touch training games again
14:21:14 <oklopol> i used to play one a lot, then i stopped, and now i'm typing in my normal random fashion again
14:21:16 <oerjan> also, i don't necessarily _think_ that fast :D
14:21:53 <oklopol> i usually tell myself my slowness is because great machinery takes a while to get started.
14:22:04 <oerjan> i keep reformulating things in my head, i think
14:22:17 <oerjan> at least that's good for spelling
14:22:53 <fizzie> oklopol: THE MILLS OF GOD GRIND SLOWLY, YET THEY GRIND EXCEEDING SMALL.
14:22:55 <oklopol> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
14:22:56 <oerjan> also what's the deal, i'm still much faster than a single finger typer
14:22:57 <oklopol> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
14:23:14 <fizzie> (Sorry for the shouting, it's just that it needs to be said emphatically.)
14:23:32 <oklopol> fizzie: is that from somewhere?
14:23:34 * oerjan recalls that was the title of an agatha christie novel
14:23:43 <fizzie> oklopol: It's a proverb; there's a Finnish version of it too.
14:23:58 <fizzie> answers.com has some etymotorology.
14:24:21 <oklopol> i should buy a proverb/idiom/word porn book
14:24:47 <oklopol> no idea what that was about
14:24:55 <oerjan> (possibly, wut, i'm not quite sure on that usage)
14:25:12 <fizzie> oklopol: Did I ever mention that I randombly bought from a book store the Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms? Quite many of them seem to be about male genitalia.
14:25:29 <oerjan> you think a book on porn proverbs would sell?
14:26:03 <oerjan> those oxonians are such dicks
14:26:11 <fizzie> Opened a random page, and it said: "girl^1: a prostitute".
14:26:46 <oklopol> i have that whatchacallit or whatchacallit book which is a similar one for american english
14:27:05 <fizzie> "come together: to copulate". "persuade: to compel through violence or threats".
14:27:11 <fizzie> There are example uses of them all.
14:27:49 <oklopol> well the persuade works, girl i've never heard
14:28:22 <oklopol> i can come up with example uses, but i wouldn't actually say girl means prostitute, usage would just be implied.
14:28:37 <oklopol> oerjan: right, both in use tho
14:29:16 <oerjan> i understand some slangs do the reverse
14:29:45 <fizzie> There are quite many in here that are tagged obsolete, too. "break the pale: to be promiscuous; The pale, as in paling, was a piece of wood, then a fence, then a fenced-in curtilage, and finally a district under the control of a centre with hostile natives prowling outside. ...
14:29:54 <oerjan> (use a word meaning "prostitute" for girls in general)
14:29:59 <oklopol> it's not that uncommon among certain groups to call women whores in finland
14:30:17 <oerjan> so what is the reverse of euphemism
14:30:19 <fizzie> ... If you broke the pale, you were somewhere where you should not have been: ... he breaks the pale, And feeds from home. (Shakespeare, The Comedy of Errors) [obsolete]"
14:32:00 <fizzie> There's a "thematic index" at the end of this book, and the "male genitalia" heading seems to have around 180 entries under it.
14:32:11 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
14:32:18 <oerjan> DON'T YOU GO SPREADING LIES
14:32:26 <fizzie> eye(n) in MATLAB/Octave creates a n-times-n identity matrix.
14:32:43 <oklopol> oerjan: if i *went* to spread lies, then i couldn't tell them to you.
14:32:56 <oklopol> so i'll just stay and spread them
14:33:13 <oerjan> you could have a mobile connection
14:34:59 <oklopol> i love how fizzie responds to puns by saying something completely random that's inspired by the idea of the pun
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14:35:59 <fizzie> "pork sword", "spam javelin", "horn of plenty", "man-root"... even "thing", "thingy", "thingamajig"; anything's a penis these days.
14:36:11 <oklopol> most people either ignore them, groan at them or continue them.
14:36:42 <oklopol> fizzie: well, thing i've heard.
14:37:01 <oklopol> the rest not, although they are kinda guessable.
14:39:38 <oklopol> kinda trivial, but i haven't seen that addressed anywhere, and never occurred to me
14:40:38 <fizzie> "spam^1: a penis; The common meat^2 imagery, from the proprietary brand of processed sweet pork (which is said to taste like human flesh). In many vulgarisms such as /spam alley/ or /chasm/, the vagina; /spam spectre/ or /javelin/, the penis viewed sexually."
14:43:53 <fizzie> Contrary to expections, this book hasn't really been very useful.
14:46:09 <fizzie> An electronic version would be more useful; then I could have it annotate all words of IRC comments which are euphemisms.
14:47:07 <Slereah_> I try a ListLogPlot on Mathematica, it no works :(
14:48:11 <oerjan> mathematica is plotting against you
14:48:44 <Slereah_> Well, at least it's plotting logarithmically
14:50:26 <fizzie> "plotcock [obsolete]: the devil; 'Seven times does her prayers backwards pray, Till Plotcock comes with lumps of Lapland clay,' (A. Ramsay, 1800 -- all genuine witches pray backwards, and Lapland was their fabled homeland before being taken over by Father Christmas)"
14:50:32 <fizzie> Okay, okay, I'll put the book away.
14:52:22 <oerjan> but then you wouldn't be fulfilling your stereotype!
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15:16:17 <oerjan> AnMaster: you will never know now *BWAHAHAHA*
15:16:24 <oerjan> unless, that is, you find the logs
15:16:54 <AnMaster> I could read scrollback, but it seemed trivial to ask.
15:17:18 <oerjan> also trivial to tease you
15:17:20 <AnMaster> "Oxford Dictionary of Euphemisms" :D
15:20:23 <AnMaster> <oklopol> i love how fizzie responds to puns by saying something completely random that's inspired by the idea of the pun <-- very good description of fizzie behaviour in such cases.
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15:38:51 <ehird> (messes with fan settings)
15:39:04 <ehird> although admittedly, just making them run at full speed isn't very dangerous
15:39:22 <ehird> I thought smoke was coming out of the computer but it was just blowing out dust :D
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15:45:37 <ehird> 08:20 Sgeo is bored on Freenet
15:45:37 <ehird> 08:20 Sgeo: Ideas?
15:45:44 <ehird> Child porn (being the only thing Freenet has).
15:45:47 <ehird> 02:37 ais523: quick #esoteric poll: if you don't want to use / to delimit a regex for some reason (e.g. if it contains lots of slashes), what character do you most often use instead?
15:46:38 <ehird> 09:45 Sgeo: http://16systems.com/zero.php hm, social flaw with the experiment: Who'd reveal that they can break that sort of thing?
15:46:45 <ehird> Data recovery "experts".
15:46:49 <ehird> That's their whole business.
15:47:10 <ehird> "One zero write is not enough to remove all data!" they say. "We can recover it," they say.
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16:13:10 <ehird> No, it's completely bullshit.
16:13:22 <ehird> Reputable companies don't offer to recover zeroed out disks.
16:14:00 <oklopol> i meant is it true you can't recover a zeroed hd
16:15:08 <oklopol> i thought you could, even though my brain says it's a ridiculous idea :)
16:15:35 <ehird> oklopol: well you look at the zeroes and some are like
16:15:46 <ehird> it might make sense on weed.
16:15:53 <oklopol> i guess it's one of those incorrect things i considered important and committed to my head when i was small.
16:16:49 <oklopol> err well from a physical perspective it makes sense they might be one-y, they aren't on an atomic scale yet.
16:16:58 <oklopol> but from a technical perspective not so muych
16:19:18 <oklopol> ehird: also did you know if you eat snot it goes right in your brain.
16:19:31 <oklopol> that's still somewhat true to me.
16:19:37 <ehird> oklopol: does that like apply to everything?
16:19:44 <ehird> my brain is currently filling itself with toast.
16:20:20 <ehird> oklopol: by sort of true do you mean it's a true-y false
16:21:28 <oklopol> why does everything except south park keep vanishing from streaming sites
16:22:14 <oklopol> i mean afaiu fox shows many of the shows that keep getting "removed due to infringement" free on their website, except only if you're american
16:24:02 <oklopol> ehird: wanna know the exact data i have on hd recovery?
16:24:02 <ehird> oklopol: because media companies are stupid
16:24:13 <oklopol> you need to remove a file 8 times before it cannot be recovered anymore.
16:24:13 <ehird> oklopol: as long as it's not X-y Ys
16:24:29 <ehird> oklopol: you mean your "false but kinda true-like" data?
16:24:47 <ehird> well I guess it removes a bit from each character of the file each time.
16:25:09 <ehird> (the real reason is that filesystems just mark the blocks as free, they don't actually erase them, ofc you can just zero out the file before deleting it)
16:25:17 <oklopol> i heard this when i was like 8; never occurred to me it might be *false*, so i spent hours and hours trying to figure out whether that meant the link was removed 8 times, which made no sense, or whether it was about how many times the actual data was removed, which i found unintuitive at the time as well
16:25:25 <oklopol> still, it was an important fact i needed to remember.
16:25:50 <ehird> oklopol: i wish I understood that kindsofstuff when i was la 8
16:25:59 <ehird> i only started being non-stupid around 9/10
16:26:51 <oklopol> well. i may have been awesome when i was 6-8, but i was just as awesome when i was 8-11.
16:27:05 <oklopol> i mean on an absolute scale, not on a relative one
16:27:07 * oerjan wonders when he'll start being non-stupid
16:27:37 <oklopol> okay i'm still very stupid, i'm just a bit less ignorant
16:28:13 <oklopol> and i've actually learned some media criticism over the years, although i still usually cannot spot lies, unless they are sarcasm.
16:28:39 <oklopol> well i can spot lies, but there are certain things i don't understand that are kinda like sarcasm but not.
16:29:02 <oklopol> hard to explain, and unnecessary, point is i suck at certain social things :)
16:29:59 * oklopol tries to think of an example to remember what he's referring to
16:29:59 <ehird> "can we malloc mem at addr 0 so null ptrs dont' cause core dump?"
16:30:20 <ehird> from http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c/browse_thread/thread/54c90bb925b9d331#
16:30:24 <ehird> someone linked it, I forget
16:30:37 <ehird> "Is your company working on X-ray equipment, or anything that might endanger a human life? "
16:30:54 <oklopol> i would suggest putting a level of interpretation on it
16:31:00 <ehird> "iPhone is a success because it's code doesn't dereference null pointers."
16:31:04 <ehird> mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmi think there may be other factors
16:31:06 <oklopol> well that or sandboxing, same end result
16:31:20 <ehird> "Man, you seen the iPhone? It doesn't dereference null pointers. How fucking cool is that?"
16:31:37 <oklopol> yeah iphone is a success because it's so good at what it does. there are tons of things it actually does better than some earlier phone.
16:31:56 <AnMaster> oklopol, it makes calls better? ;P
16:32:02 <ehird> i think mallocat was like, malloc + cat
16:32:10 <ehird> it allocates a new cat in memory...?
16:32:28 <AnMaster> ehird, it mallo a cat, you miscounted the "c"s
16:32:47 <ehird> portmaneuvers often drop common end/start letters.
16:33:59 <oklopol> so something got stuck playing "soda soda soda soda soda..." on my speakers.
16:34:26 <oklopol> well i closed ff, and it stopped after a minute
16:35:12 <oklopol> i think it was from south park's theme song, but the voice that said the soda doesn't sing in it...
16:35:43 <AnMaster> odd, I never had sound playing got stuck from website
16:35:57 <AnMaster> in fact I never had sound playing from within firefox at all :D
16:36:04 <oklopol> AnMaster: well i use linux, it's kinda common
16:36:20 <AnMaster> oklopol, I guess it depends on what (if any) plugins you have installed
16:42:04 <iano> speaking of one-y zeros...
16:42:22 <iano> has anyone done an esolang based only on fuzzy logic?
16:42:29 <ehird> if not they should
16:42:31 <ehird> I love fuzzy logic
16:42:38 <ehird> it's so unintuitive-y intuitive
16:43:00 <iano> especially since "brainfuzz" hasn't been taken yet :)
16:43:21 <ehird> bah, brainfuck derivatives :-)
16:44:03 <iano> ok, "hotfuzz" then
16:44:19 <iano> (what the heck would fuzzy inc/dec be anyway?)
16:44:30 <ehird> just have one operation, ?
16:44:37 <ehird> which is a decrement-y increment
16:44:53 <ehird> well, and some fuzzy looping things and IO
16:45:03 <ehird> the program is executed by the decrements and the increments coming to a compromise
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17:27:37 <ehird> Factor's new UI is nice.
17:31:13 <ehird> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=589
17:31:14 <ehird> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=590
17:40:39 <AnMaster> ehird, hm a fuzzy logic language, how would you program in it?
17:42:05 <AnMaster> ehird, it would be non-deterministic? Or am I confusing two different things here.
17:42:58 * AnMaster wants to see some programming examples in fuzzy logic then to be able to get a feel for the language.
17:43:27 <AnMaster> something representative for fuzzy logic programming in pseudo code.
17:45:13 <AnMaster> it's like feather then in that no one described it precisely enough for me to get a feeling of what it is like. Languages like that are like an itch (if you see what I mean).
17:45:56 <AnMaster> ehird, hm would SQL's TRUE/FALSE/NULL count as fuzzy logic?
17:46:11 <ehird> google fuzzy logic
17:46:22 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuzzy_logic
17:46:29 <AnMaster> I did, and I'm reading the wikipedia page.
17:47:03 <iano> variables would be floating point 0..1
17:47:13 <iano> operations would be MIN, MAX, NOT
17:47:18 <ehird> you should have it baked in
17:47:37 <AnMaster> iano, not floating point, arbitrary precision fractions.
17:47:50 <iano> and a comparison operator
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17:56:56 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: did you have used glfunge98's opengl interface?
17:58:06 <ehird> lifthrasiir: don't talk about glfunge98, it's a shame on fizzie!
17:58:12 <Deewiant> Don't think I ever got it to work
17:59:14 <lifthrasiir> i'm working on my proof-of-concept funge editor and debugger, to be familiar to opengl
18:02:14 <ehird> lifthrasiir: Deewiant: bequnge
18:02:18 -!- pikhq has joined.
18:02:19 <ehird> bad impl, maybe a good editor?
18:02:27 <Deewiant> I didn't even like the editor part of it
18:02:48 <Deewiant> But Fungus has the pretty run history drawing :-)
18:10:28 <lifthrasiir> fungus looks not bad, but seems missing some features
18:11:46 <AnMaster> ehird, the editor part of Bequnge have sound effects
18:11:51 <ehird> AnMaster: AWESOME.
18:12:13 <AnMaster> apart from that it looks like a cross between the matrix, befunge, and some educational program about space-time
18:12:46 <ehird> who cares, that sounds great
18:13:39 <AnMaster> ehird, it uses it's own fileformat too iirc, not the standard trefunge one even
18:14:34 <AnMaster> and it is badly implemented befunge-93 with some extensions (those extensions being larger size and extra dimensions, up to 105 iirc)
18:14:59 <AnMaster> however, it is missing quite a few of the befunge-98 instructions
18:15:01 <kerlo> I want a computer program that takes a number and a computer program and outputs an equivalent computer program, and another that takes the resulting computer program and outputs the number and the original computer program.
18:15:16 <ehird> kerlo: godel numbering.
18:15:21 <AnMaster> ehird, no clue, and I might have misremembered the exact count
18:15:21 <ehird> and the equiv program is eval "..."
18:15:44 <iano> kerlo: lookup "Iota and Jot"
18:15:47 <kerlo> Well, sure, but that's a rather inefficient way of doing it.
18:16:23 <kerlo> My idea was to use this for steganography.
18:16:27 * ehird 10 [ 2 random-integer . ] times
18:16:32 <Deewiant> ehird: Re: sound effects, http://www.purplehatstands.com/bequnge/screenshots/bequnge6.png
18:16:42 <kerlo> You don't want to make it very obvious.
18:16:44 <AnMaster> kerlo, if you have a super-tc programming language handy you could generate random programs and check if they are equivalent, and then repeat the process if not, until you find an equivalent one :P
18:16:52 <ehird> why is that super-tc AnMaster
18:16:59 <ehird> comparing functions
18:17:03 <ehird> that's not super-tc
18:17:05 <ehird> that's just impossible.
18:17:21 <kerlo> It's impossible outside of super-TC.
18:17:42 <AnMaster> ehird, are you implying impossible is tc or subtc (false <whatever the word was>)
18:17:57 <ehird> impossible is impossible
18:18:00 <ehird> that is, "not possible"
18:18:36 <AnMaster> actually why is it impossible to do it for a sub-tc language in a super-tc machine?
18:18:44 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: bequnge looks like a typical IDE, which i didlike :p
18:19:11 <AnMaster> ehird, why couldn't it be "possible". And here I mean "possible" in the same sense Banana scheme is "possible".
18:19:30 <lifthrasiir> i like vim-y or emacs-y interface with minimal but helpful UI elements
18:19:33 <ehird> AnMaster: you are completely ignorant of what super-tc actually means. it does NOT mean "can do the impossible".
18:19:46 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, you like both vim and emacs?!
18:20:19 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, emacs is best of course ;P
18:21:15 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it would allow solving halting problem. But super-tc langs do sometimes have stuff that can solve the halting problem. But why exactly is compare functions not super-tc?
18:21:36 <kerlo> ehird: then tell us what you think "super-tc" means.
18:21:46 <ehird> kerlo: a computer more powerful than a turing machine
18:22:18 <AnMaster> wouldn't a machine able to compare two functions be more powerful than a turing machine?
18:22:33 <ehird> that's not meaningful
18:22:39 <kerlo> So, um, suppose we have a Turing machine plus a halting oracle.
18:22:40 <ehird> a machine that can do such a thing is not a meaningful concept
18:22:50 <kerlo> Yes, it is a meaningful concept.
18:23:37 <ehird> because… it isn't?
18:23:41 <kerlo> Anyway, I'm putting ehird on /ignore, since I already know that I'm right and I don't need to hear his arguments to the contrary.
18:24:08 <ehird> kerlo: have fun being sure of yourself
18:24:10 <AnMaster> kerlo, sounds like a good plan. Personally I'm going afk,
18:24:29 <pikhq> Ehird is considering the sort of things that can be done in reality.
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18:26:37 <AnMaster> pikhq, theoretical is way more interesting. Who cares about reality...
18:27:12 <pikhq> People who want stuff to work, I guess.
18:27:27 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway I guess that means ehird discards the concept of UTMs too, since you can't get infinite tape/memory in real life.
18:27:53 <ehird> it's fun watching people jump to conclusions
18:27:57 <pikhq> The universe itself might be a UTM.
18:28:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, that depends on if the universe is infinite or not.
18:28:24 <ehird> also, yeh, saying you can't get infinite shit is a rather big accusation
18:29:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, and as far as I remember the scientists are currently betting on "finite but bloody huge", but I may be wrong there. Haven't really tracked the current development in that area.
18:29:38 <pikhq> Betting on it, but the jury is still out.
18:29:52 <ehird> a hivemind consisting of many tiny little scientists, unified under one voice.
18:30:05 <ehird> bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt
18:30:11 <ehird> BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT
18:30:22 <pikhq> Also, if the universe goes under a heat death rather than a big crunch, its being unbounded in time *might* be enough to make it a UTM...
18:30:37 * pikhq is not sure, having not thought about it too much
18:30:52 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Just wondering if ehird had a point, evidently not
18:31:15 <ehird> pointy pointy point point
18:31:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, but is there enough matter in there to store the state?
18:31:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so he is talking? I see
18:32:08 <ehird> <AnMaster> See this? I'm so cool I only need to reference ignoring people *indirectly*.
18:32:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, or maybe you could encode the infinite state in some other way
18:32:29 <pikhq> AnMaster: Really, the question is, can time be considered a tape or not? :p
18:32:33 <ehird> <AnMaster> Man, how can you handle my smoothness. My passive-agressivity is slick as fuck.
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18:32:52 <AnMaster> pikhq, that's an interesting idea. Hm you can't go back easily as far as we know today.
18:34:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, also wasn't there some theory that the proton might not be stable, but if so would have a enormous half life (if that is the right word for sub-atomic particles)
18:34:59 <kerlo> Erasing information = creating entropy.
18:35:09 <pikhq> Half-life is still quite accurate for sub-atomic particles.
18:35:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, right. My particle physics are a bit rusty.
18:35:30 <kerlo> Therefore, if the universe cannot hold any more entropy, information cannot be erased.
18:35:53 <AnMaster> kerlo, that is the perfect backup method!
18:36:20 <kerlo> Unfortunately, the universe is constantly being encrypted further and further. :-)
18:36:45 <AnMaster> kerlo, at least no one would get your data then :D
18:36:50 <kerlo> Heck, that's a great cryptography method.
18:37:09 <AnMaster> right, failed backup method turned great cryptography method.
18:37:11 <kerlo> Write your secret data on a little slip of paper. Put it inside a sealed time machine. Have it go forward really, really far.
18:37:18 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I think it is like printing whitespace programs.
18:37:39 <lifthrasiir> so that's one-way encryption, all right :)
18:37:42 <kerlo> Then just stir the contents around a bit; the way that you did so is the key.
18:38:18 <kerlo> To reverse the encryption, un-stir the contents and set the time machine to go backwards for the same amount of time.
18:38:25 <kerlo> Heck, the amount of time could be the key.
18:38:45 <AnMaster> kerlo, wouldn't the time machine have a non-zero entropy?
18:39:08 <AnMaster> I mean in itself, and whatever it use for power
18:39:19 <kerlo> I don't know what you're getting at.
18:39:22 <lifthrasiir> kerlo: key space can be too small unless the universe expands forever
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18:40:11 <kerlo> If you run a system forwards for a really long time, then run it backwards for the same amount of time, and any randomness the universe creates in between ends up coinciding, you'll end up with the original system.
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18:40:29 <lifthrasiir> what i said was wrong, the amount of time should be in the exponent and not in the base
18:42:02 <AnMaster> kerlo, for every n years run forward n years. I think you could do Hillbert's hotel in time this way (assuming universe expands forever). For every new time machine you need to place at some point in time, move every existing time machine one step up
18:42:19 <AnMaster> that is to the next second or whatever
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18:53:51 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:04:38 <ehird> ( scratchpad ) FUNCTION: void* malloc ( size_t size ) ;
19:04:38 <ehird> ( scratchpad ) -1 malloc .
19:04:42 <ehird> ( scratchpad ) 24 malloc .
19:06:08 <AnMaster> interesting way to write arguments
19:06:58 <ehird> concatenative, functional-but-not-purely, by slava pestov, has a very good VM with an aggressively-optimising compiler, generational GC, a huge standard library, a portable GUI environment that hooks into $editor_you_like, and that uses files while still being a "live" environment
19:07:34 <AnMaster> with live environment you mean closed world<q>
19:07:54 <ehird> live as in you can poke all around the system as one world; often this implies closed world
19:07:58 <ehird> but factor isn't closed world
19:08:11 <ehird> it's all the benefits of closed-world while not restricting you like that
19:08:25 <ehird> (also: very good documentation)
19:09:02 <ehird> http://factorcode.org/; but if you want to try it out, use the git repo: http://concatenative.org/wiki/view/Factor/GIT%20repository
19:09:08 <ehird> as it has several UI improvements
19:09:13 <ehird> (use the bleeding-edge, not clean)
19:10:15 <AnMaster> ehird, some descriptive example?
19:11:57 <ehird> AnMaster: here's the graphical tetris game from the stdlib (which contains some examples, documentation, slides from talks about it...): http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595
19:12:12 <ehird> 114 lines of code, well-factored, with whitespace and whatnot
19:12:55 <ehird> but yeah, I'd be hard-pressed to come up with another environment where you can write tetris in that few lines of code using only the stdlib without obfuscating
19:12:59 <ehird> AnMaster: well, not "stdlib"
19:13:06 <ehird> it's just a bundled module, as an example
19:13:10 <AnMaster> USING: accessors combinators kernel lists math math.functions sequences system tetris.board tetris.piece tetris.tetromino ;
19:13:13 <ehird> you can learn factor from within itself
19:13:22 <ehird> AnMaster: all except tetris.*
19:13:28 <ehird> I can paste the other tetris modules if you want
19:13:48 <AnMaster> I mean what sort of language would have a tetris module in the standard library
19:14:02 <AnMaster> yeah that could be hard to do as compact
19:14:07 <ehird> AnMaster: http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#294 tetris.board
19:14:29 <ehird> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#295 tetris.gl
19:14:32 <AnMaster> ehird, but if text based was allowed I wouldn't be surprised if it could be done as short
19:14:50 <ehird> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#296 tetris.piece (these are all just helper modules)
19:15:13 <AnMaster> ok but that ends up not quite as compact indeed
19:15:18 <ehird> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#297 just "tetris" module
19:15:28 <ehird> http://paste.factorcode.org/paste?id=595#298 tetris.etromino
19:15:31 <ehird> AnMaster: indeed, but
19:15:38 <ehird> the actual logic is very compact
19:15:51 <ehird> the rest is mostly interface stuff and tetr definitions
19:16:51 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, and, factor's directory is user-writable stuff, and it works in-tree
19:17:02 <ehird> so put the git repo in ~/local/factor/ or whatever if you do
19:17:17 <AnMaster> so you can't install it in a site-wide shared location?
19:17:31 <ehird> not that I know of
19:17:38 <ehird> AnMaster: but that's because
19:17:42 <ehird> e.g. you can rewrite all of the stdlib
19:17:45 <ehird> from within the environment
19:17:49 <AnMaster> ehird, no distros can have packages of it either
19:18:00 <AnMaster> just do something like unionfs
19:18:01 <ehird> it's not like that
19:18:13 <ehird> the distro would make a "make-factor-instance" command
19:18:20 <ehird> $ make-factor-instance ~/local/factor/
19:18:23 <ehird> it's because it's so malleable
19:18:39 <ehird> the only constant things are the VM, pretty much; and it's tiny enough that you might as well keep it there
19:18:48 <AnMaster> ehird, and that would work as an overlay and refer to the system wide read only base for unchanged modules?
19:19:01 <ehird> congrats, you just ruined factor
19:19:23 <AnMaster> I was suggesting for space saving doing something quite like unionfs
19:19:25 <ehird> well that's stupid, more work for something that saves a tiny bit of disk space
19:19:27 <ehird> they're just text files
19:20:08 <AnMaster> ehird, hm linux source is almost only text files (there is an small image of tux too) yet even the compressed tarball is something like 30 or 40 MB iirc
19:20:17 <ehird> well, linux is huge
19:20:39 <ehird> I just measured my factor directory
19:20:51 <ehird> there's the 80MB factor.image; which is the workspace image file and obviously can't be shared
19:21:09 <ehird> and there's a few megabytes of binaries
19:21:30 <ehird> [ehird:/Applications/Factor] % du -sh core
19:21:31 <ehird> [ehird:/Applications/Factor] % du -sh extra
19:21:35 <ehird> which is tiny these days
19:21:42 <AnMaster> [ebuild N ] sys-kernel/vanilla-sources-2.6.27.10 USE="-build -symlink" 49,327 kB
19:21:43 <ehird> so, you wouldn't save all that much
19:21:45 <oklopol> and either i'm getting more patient or that was really easy to read.
19:21:52 <AnMaster> and that's the bzip2ed tarball
19:21:59 <ehird> yes, well, the kernel is huge
19:22:04 <ehird> oklopol: yeah it is quite easy to read if you go through it
19:22:12 <pikhq> I wish they'd start using LZMA'd tarballs.
19:22:15 <AnMaster> ehird, just saying "only text" doesn't mean a lot
19:22:37 <pikhq> AnMaster: Text compresses very well.
19:22:43 <AnMaster> pikhq, it would save an MB or so at most. And take much longer to compress for a few seconds difference in download time.
19:22:51 <AnMaster> I don't think doing lzma would be worth it
19:23:12 <pikhq> A megabyte is about 10 minutes of download time. ;)
19:23:41 <ehird> AnMaster: I calculated it, you'd save about 18MB total.
19:23:45 <AnMaster> pikhq, why don't you upgrade. It will be cheaper too, I mean dialup is per-minute but adsl is fixed cost per month usually
19:23:51 <ehird> AnMaster: he can't get it.
19:23:56 <pikhq> They don't *offer* broadband here.
19:24:11 <AnMaster> ehird, that's per instance or?
19:24:14 <pikhq> I'm in the US. We suck at broadband.
19:24:18 <ehird> AnMaster: right; compared to the 80MB image file, saving 18MB is peanuts
19:24:23 <ehird> remember that one instance can have multiple projects
19:24:29 <AnMaster> ehird, lets say you have lots of users, maybe you are a university that wants once instance per student
19:24:38 <ehird> AnMaster: let's assume unrealistic shit
19:24:42 <ehird> and use it to support our arguments
19:24:44 <AnMaster> ehird, you mount the base copy over nfs or such
19:24:52 <ehird> oklopol: not sure, it isn't really documented
19:24:56 <AnMaster> ehird, why is that unrealistic...
19:25:11 <ehird> oklopol: oh, it's generic
19:25:15 <ehird> what's it called on?
19:25:17 <AnMaster> pikhq, but won't it cost a lot to idle on irc then...
19:25:20 * pikhq goes to check how much you save with LZMA'ing the tarball.
19:25:31 <oklopol> ehird: noooo i mean the syntax
19:25:41 <ehird> oklopol: id>> is just a word
19:25:58 <pikhq> AnMaster: Uh, no. They still mean "unlimited" when it comes to dialup.
19:26:08 <ehird> oklopol: id>> is just like hello or chocolate or **ANBUTT**
19:26:13 <ehird> no special meaning
19:26:14 <AnMaster> pikhq, never heard of such unlimited dialup
19:26:32 <pikhq> It's been ubiquitous since the introduction of 56k modems...
19:26:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, when I had dialup it was pay per minute thing.
19:26:56 <ehird> oklopol: same with lisp
19:27:01 <ehird> id>> has no special meaning in lisp either
19:27:24 <ehird> oklopol: but, by convention:
19:27:26 <ehird> oklopol: For every tuple slot, a reader method is defined in the accessors vocabulary. The reader is named slot>> and given a tuple, pushes the slot value on the stack.
19:27:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, well not a lot per minute, but it was per time unit you were connected yes.
19:27:33 <oklopol> ehird: i mean weird how they keep using X, X>> and >>X in the same document without them being about the same X
19:27:39 <ehird> oklopol: so "foo rows>>" is "foo.rows"
19:27:47 <ehird> the setter is >>rows
19:27:54 <ehird> "foo x rows>>" "foo.rows = x"
19:28:00 <AnMaster> pikhq, and it might have been more fine graded than minute, maybe it was per second.
19:28:17 <oklopol> ehird: when i asked what it meant, i implicitly meant conventions too
19:28:26 <ehird> oklopol: right I misunderstood at first
19:28:42 <pikhq> You got ripped off rather hardcore there.
19:28:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, nop, all ISPs were like that back then
19:28:57 <ehird> AnMaster: you're wrong.
19:29:44 <AnMaster> it was like that when I switched from 28k to 56k, it was the same some years later. Not sure if it was still like that when I switched to ADSL (which is unlimited indeed)
19:29:53 <Deewiant> By 'all ISPs' he means 'all ISPs in Sweden'.
19:30:03 <Deewiant> It was like that in Finland as well.
19:30:13 <pikhq> So, Europe got really screwed over.
19:30:14 <Deewiant> And Germany, I think, but not sure.
19:30:18 <ehird> 19:27 ehird: "foo x rows>>" "foo.rows = x"
19:30:18 <oklopol> "foo x rows>>" "foo.rows = x" <<< probably+ ">>rows" here
19:30:20 <ehird> *this should be >>rows ofc
19:30:22 <pikhq> And now, the US gets screwed over with broadband.
19:30:44 <Deewiant> And it was still like that when we switched to ADSL which was post-2000.
19:30:51 <AnMaster> pikhq, I think we have the upper hand nowdays. :P Go get ADSL instead of complain about bzip2 compressed tarball
19:30:54 <ehird> oklopol: also, "tuples" = "classes" basically. also, it's all multi-dispatch
19:31:06 <ehird> oklopol: as in, instead of specializing on the magic first argument (the instance), it specializes on all
19:31:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm I think I went ADSL in 2005 or so
19:31:26 <pikhq> I'd love to, I really would. If the freaking phone company would offer ADSL here, I'd have it.
19:31:35 <Ilari> And DSL is pretty obsolete if one wants "world-class" speeds. Fiber is pretty much only option for that :-/
19:31:38 <ehird> pikhq: you used to have adsl right?
19:31:44 <ehird> Ilari: ADSL2+ isn't too bad is it?
19:31:47 <AnMaster> pikhq, I know a lot of people in US with cable too.
19:31:50 <ehird> not fiber-speed, but...
19:32:01 <pikhq> ehird: I used to be on campus, and before that, I was at a different house, with cable.
19:32:03 <oklopol> ehird: wanna be more specific?
19:32:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I can't remember the exact year but I know it was post-2000. :-P
19:32:14 <AnMaster> 8 mbps down is enough in my experience
19:32:22 <AnMaster> usually you are limited by the speed of the mirror anwyay
19:32:28 <Ilari> 24Mbps is not "world-class". :-)
19:32:30 <ehird> oklopol: lessay python, "x.foo(y,z)" decides which foo to call based on the type of x right?
19:32:40 <ehird> oklopol: multi-dispatch generalizes it, by dispatching on every one of (x,y,z)
19:32:46 <pikhq> And on campus, I tended to get my 100Mbps line filled.
19:32:47 <ehird> e.g. common lisp's object system does this
19:32:52 <ehird> which fits in with its (f x y z) syntax
19:32:58 <ehird> and it fits in with factor's x y z f syntax too
19:33:06 <ehird> oklopol: multi-dispatch handles things like + effectively
19:33:14 <ehird> as in, each number type doesn't haev to know about all the others when it gets +'d with one
19:33:21 <oklopol> ehird: right, kinda like __radd__ and friends in python but less retarded
19:33:21 <ehird> because it's defined over (first arg,second arg)
19:33:23 <pikhq> Ilari: 24Mbps is the fastest offered in the US, sadly.
19:33:30 <pikhq> And that's if you've got fiber.
19:34:28 <pikhq> Oh, and did I happen to mention that there's *maybe* 2 choices of ISP in any given area?
19:34:32 <pikhq> And they both suck?
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19:36:15 <ehird> ( http://www.bogons.net/ )
19:36:57 <ehird> guys do you think oklopol's computer from 2001 is 32 or 64 but
19:37:09 * pikhq just checked; LZMA instead of BZ2 saves 7 megabytes from the Linux tarball.
19:37:32 <pikhq> ehird: I guess 32; he probably doesn't have IA64.
19:37:36 <AnMaster> pikhq, is that bzip2 --best vs lzma <whatever the parameter was>
19:37:53 <AnMaster> pikhq, and how much longer did it take to compress it than bzip2
19:38:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: That's bzip2 as given by kernel.org vs. lzma.
19:38:05 <oklopol> if you want you can give me commands to execute root on my cli
19:38:09 <oklopol> if they help determining that
19:38:10 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure both are on default settings.
19:38:13 <AnMaster> pikhq, in my experience lzma takes WAY WAY WAY longer to compress
19:38:17 <pikhq> And it took a few minutes to compress.
19:38:28 <pikhq> Yeah, lzma is slow at compression.
19:38:37 <pikhq> Faster than bz2 to decompress, though.
19:39:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, I really think the kernel devs got better things to do than compress with lzma.
19:39:27 <AnMaster> anyway lzma defaults to -7, try lzma -9
19:39:27 <oklopol> stop talking about lzma, it's like the only well-known compression algo our compression course skipped :P
19:39:36 <AnMaster> maybe you can save a few extra bytes
19:39:44 <AnMaster> pikhq, for a few more minutes.
19:40:05 <AnMaster> oklopol, I don't know how bzip2 works either. I can still use it.
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19:40:57 <pikhq> AnMaster: lzma -2 gets better compression ratios than bzip2 and is as fast. :p
19:41:10 <AnMaster> pikhq, interesting. How much better
19:41:27 <AnMaster> so they would still need to provide it
19:41:37 <Ilari> Hmm... Wonder would it be allowed to claim that whole zipcode has "Broadband access" if one household there has broadband using 10GBASE-LR? :-/
19:41:48 <oklopol> AnMaster: why would i want to use a compression algo?
19:42:41 <pikhq> According to this table I've got, lzma -2 on 2.6.11.0 provides has a compression ratio of 18.7%, lzma -3 has 16.7%, and bzip -9 has 17.8%...
19:42:46 <oklopol> the only thing i might want to do with lzma is experiment with variations on it. using a program that's based on it doesn't sound very useful
19:43:31 <pikhq> And that's the one tarball that lzma -2 isn't better than bzip2 -9...
19:43:41 <AnMaster> what about using 2.6.28 instead
19:47:10 <pikhq> 129 secs to compress with lzma -2, waiting on bzip2 -9.
19:48:48 <AnMaster> ehird, incompatible timesharing system?
19:50:16 <pikhq> Alright, 2:12 for lzma -2 versus 2:34 for bzip2 -9. 51M for lzma -2 instead of 49M for bzip2 -9...
19:50:40 <pikhq> lzma -3 will take... A while.
19:52:13 <ehird> i'ma run the fullest lzma on it
19:52:18 <oklopol> oh bzip2 uses burrows-wheeler
19:52:56 * ehird dls linux-2.6.29.tar.bz2
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19:54:43 <pikhq> The main benefit of lzma is in decompression. Decompression ends up taking about 5k of code, low memory overhead, and is almost as fast as gzip...
19:56:09 <fizzieds> hmph. i get a "guru meditation error" from dsorganize if i connect to the bouncer, so i have to annoy you with join/quittery now.
19:56:51 -!- jix_ has quit ("...").
19:57:32 <pikhq> 6:01 to compress with lzma -3, 46M.
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20:00:41 <ehird> pikhq: don'tchu mean -a3
20:01:01 <ehird> do i have a different lzma to you
20:01:43 <pikhq> lzma 4.32.7, Copyright (C) 2005 Ville Koskinen.
20:02:34 <ehird> i've got that one now
20:03:08 <pikhq> Seems that version is rather out-of-date.
20:03:13 * pikhq shakes fist at Gentoo.
20:05:18 <ehird> % time lzma --keep --best linux-2.6.29.tar
20:05:28 * pikhq waits a few minutes
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20:09:11 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:11:13 * ehird 's computer grinds
20:12:05 <fizzieds> grind some lzma experience points, eh.
20:13:08 <fizzieds> i have just heard the 'lingo',
20:13:35 <fizzieds> i did 'play' that... progress quest, was it?
20:15:18 <ehird> oklopol: it plays itself
20:15:25 <ehird> it's a masturbating rpg
20:15:33 <fizzieds> it's a game where you just look at a slew of progress bars describing the progress of a hypothetical rpg.
20:16:00 <fizzieds> i'm sure there's a screenshot somewhere.
20:17:20 <fizzieds> can't really browse the tubeswith this silly thing.
20:17:35 -!- Hiato has joined.
20:17:42 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/ProgressQuest_Screenshot.png
20:18:32 <oklopol> you don't have to do anything?
20:18:51 <oklopol> i mean i love watching other people play.
20:19:35 <fizzieds> you have to start it. [i guess you could make it auto-start.]
20:20:17 <ehird> fizzieds: dude you turned into 2002-2004 again.
20:20:25 <ehird> your ds is a time machina
20:20:35 <GregorR> LOL, this commercial says "If you're allergic to Astepro, don't use it."
20:20:52 <fizzieds> it's this device, it brings out the worst in me.
20:21:18 <GregorR> "Progress quest" sounds like the most boring game imaginable.
20:21:29 <ehird> GregorR: NORLY?!?!?!
20:21:44 <ais523> ehird: there must be a corollary of rule 34 that says that some things are sufficiently boring that nobody ever thinks of invoking rule 34 on them
20:21:55 <ehird> ais523: Progress quest porn?
20:22:17 <fizzieds> loook at that progress bar go!
20:22:21 <ehird> well I dunno, all those bytes collapsing into each other
20:22:26 <ehird> you know, like, I can imagine compression rape porn
20:22:29 <ehird> i'll forcibly compress you
20:22:29 <GregorR> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
20:22:32 <oklopol> like sorting porn but more hardcore
20:22:33 <ehird> totally random data!
20:22:40 <ehird> i...can't...do...it
20:22:42 <ehird> oh god, it's expanding
20:22:48 <GregorR> Make something that, when the lzma-compressed version is interpreted as raw RGB data, is porn.
20:22:58 <oklopol> ehird: how bout some compression visualization
20:23:10 <ehird> oklopol: you could work that into it somehow
20:23:14 <oklopol> GregorR: so unzip a porn pic
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20:24:02 <AnMaster> ais523, anything new and/or interesting?
20:25:04 <ais523> oklopol: it's probably in the wrong format
20:26:03 <oklopol> ais523: also l77 tends not to have unique encodings
20:26:15 <AnMaster> ais523, btw did I mentioned I finished IftU?
20:26:22 <GregorR> Are there any compression schemes that are reliably 1-to-1? That is, if you uncompress something, then recompress it, the original and final compressed versions will always be byte-per-byte identical?
20:26:41 <GregorR> (Even if the original compressed version was a LIE :P )
20:26:47 <ais523> well, null compression is like that
20:26:53 <GregorR> What a useful statement :P
20:27:17 <oklopol> actually you can lie to it.
20:27:47 <ehird> lzma --keep --best linux-2.6.29.tar 686.81s user 4.91s system 95% cpu 12:08.12 total
20:27:52 <AnMaster> ais523, after several days of more or less constant play. It was *extremely* hard in the last few scenarios, like being unable to recruit or recall for most of them.
20:27:54 <ehird> -rw-r--r-- 1 ehird staff 44M 23 Mar 23:27 linux-2.6.29.tar.lzma
20:28:03 <ehird> for the supplied bzip2
20:28:14 <ais523> "unable to recruit or recall"?
20:28:15 <oklopol> i'm pretty sure you can't lie to burrows-wheeler. but may depend on final encoding, transform is two-way deterministic at least
20:28:23 <ais523> did you at least get a few autorecalls?
20:28:56 <AnMaster> you had to select a few during the forth last (iirc, maybe fifth) or such then hang on to them for the rest of the time.
20:29:27 <ais523> ehird: give it arbitary input and ask it to decompress it
20:29:32 <GregorR> ehird: Provide input to decompress that wasn't actually produced by the d--- yeah.
20:29:35 <AnMaster> being able to recruit a few units at the next to final one again, but having very little money or income and no villages (all those auto recruited ones were set as "loyal" though)
20:29:42 <AnMaster> ais523, and I was playing on easy!
20:29:56 <ais523> AnMaster: was it classified as a hard campaign?
20:29:58 <GregorR> ehird: I want to make a file that you run it through (e.g.) gzip, and /then/ it's a plain text file :P
20:29:59 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trout_tickling
20:30:00 <oklopol> GregorR: i think some statistical ones are like that, because they're so optimized redundancy will actually break them
20:30:15 <ais523> also, what was your income source? The 2-a-turn trickle?
20:30:31 <AnMaster> ais523, I think it was set to three a turn, but yeah something like that
20:30:48 <ais523> and the costs were still typical costs of about 18 for a rubbish unit?
20:30:55 <AnMaster> ais523, actually {INCOME 4 4 1} or something like that iirc
20:31:11 <AnMaster> ais523, the only units you had then were low level undead ones
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20:31:21 <AnMaster> instead of low level elves like before.
20:31:46 <ais523> by the way, are there any official campaigns where you play as drakes?
20:31:53 <ais523> primarily, rather than as allies you pick up?
20:32:14 <AnMaster> ais523, then the answer is: none that I know of
20:32:56 <AnMaster> ais523, NR have them as a playable extra side though. Not just AI-controlled allies.
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20:44:09 -!- oerjan has set topic: THIS! IS! RUTIAN! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
20:46:38 -!- GregorR has set topic: THIS! IS! OERJAN'S CHANNEL! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
20:47:02 <oerjan> YOU! MISSED! AN! EXCLAMATION! MARK!
20:47:38 <GregorR> THERE! DOESN'T! HAVE! TO! BE! ONE! EVERY! OTHER! WORD!
20:47:46 <GregorR> THERE! DOESN'T! HAVE! TO! BE! ONE! ON! EVERY! WORD!
20:48:02 <oerjan> YES! THERE! DOES! OTHERWISE! IT'S! NOT! THE! TROPE!
20:48:09 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitlegf1u3pozudh8?from=Main.ThisIsSPARTA
20:48:17 <GregorR> THE! TROPE! IS! THIS! IS! <PLACE STUFF HERE>!
20:48:24 <ehird> Ptitlegf1u3pozudh8; catchy page title.
20:48:36 * oerjan wonders why the heck tvtropes are obfuscating their urls
20:48:58 <oerjan> GregorR: NO! IT! ISN'T!
20:49:06 <ehird> wiki software shitness?
20:49:57 <oerjan> i have a vague feeling it happens whenever an article has two titles
20:50:15 <oerjan> why they cannot choose one readable as main title, i don't know
20:50:55 <oerjan> hm wait, the first i checked now doesn't fit that
20:51:16 <oerjan> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DoNotGoGentleIntoThatGoodNight has an alternate title, but doesn't fit that
20:51:59 <oerjan> and it's even longer, so it's not url shortening either
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21:20:17 -!- GregorR has set topic: ¡THIS ¡IS ¡TROPE ¡INVERSION | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
21:25:42 <oerjan> <ehird> AnMaster: you are completely ignorant of what super-tc actually means. it does NOT mean "can do the impossible".
21:26:04 <oerjan> actually it means "can do anything tc can, plus at least one impossible thing"
21:27:17 <oerjan> given that one usually assumes turing computable == possible, by the Turing thesis
21:27:29 <AnMaster> "being able to compare two functions" is super-tc, ehird claiming it is not is just plain wrong.
21:28:11 <ais523> it's certainly possible to compare functions if you have sufficiently many restrictions on them to make them comparable
21:28:12 <oerjan> also, assuming the functions are themselves computable, it's probably not even a very high super-tc class
21:28:14 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but he claimed comparing two functions was super-super-tc
21:28:44 <oerjan> there is a hierarchy of super-tc, of course
21:29:11 <AnMaster> which describes that in an interesting way
21:29:34 <oerjan> i would imagine comparing computable functions is somewhere in the first 2 or 3 levels
21:29:52 * AnMaster imagines a super-tc language that could solve the halting problem for itself without causing a paradox. Now that is most probably (haven't thought a lot about it yet) impossible.
21:30:48 <AnMaster> oerjan, or maybe this is hyper-tc?
21:30:54 <oerjan> the proof of the halting problem impossibility doesn't care about what extra things you include, only how you can build new functions from old ones
21:31:00 <AnMaster> hyper tc == really impossible ?
21:31:39 <oerjan> although you _could_ imagine a language that cannot build functions arbitrarily, but still super-tc
21:31:52 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't think that's meaningful
21:36:38 <oerjan> <ehird> because. it isn't?
21:36:47 <oerjan> you are really being trolly these days
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21:37:31 <oerjan> i mean i _can_ see a way in which what you claim is true and a way in which it is false, but since you refuse to elaborate i have no way of knowing which meaning you are referring to
21:40:09 * oerjan swats oklopol -----###
21:40:51 <oerjan> i am merely estimating your maturity level, and responding similarly :D
21:41:14 <oerjan> also i don't claim to be mature.
21:42:00 <oklopol> oerjan: is the structure of all finite groups completely known, in some interesting way? :)
21:42:12 <oklopol> i mean the fact prime sized groups are always cyclic
21:42:16 <oklopol> made me think about some kinda decompositions
21:42:23 <oerjan> the simple finite groups are classified
21:42:31 <oerjan> where "simple" is a technical term
21:43:12 <oerjan> this is also known as the Enormous Theorem, which should be a hint of the work that was needed to achieve it :)
21:43:14 <oklopol> that was not completely my own thinking, i heard something about decompositions on a lecture, but wasn't really paying attention because i was busy reading something else
21:44:02 <oklopol> hmm, maybe there's a reason there's a separate group theory course even though the three algebra courses are already largely about groups
21:44:29 <oklopol> (largely != mostly, but still)
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21:44:53 <oerjan> a simple group is one that has no normal subgroups
21:45:28 <oerjan> {e} and the group itself is always there, ofc
21:46:00 <oklopol> ofc, ofc. i've done tons of work on this shit, the more you say the more my brain gets insulted :P
21:46:14 <oklopol> you have to be careful when teaching me.
21:46:15 <oerjan> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/ClassificationTheoremofFiniteGroups.html
21:46:59 <oerjan> well, since it seemed you had not heard about simple groups, i dared not assume you had heard about normal subgroups either
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21:48:19 <oklopol> the way the course was taught normal subgroups were pretty much the most important thing
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21:50:56 <oklopol> (the group part of basic algebra 1 was about building up for homomorphism theorem)
21:51:03 <oklopol> (or whatever that's called)
21:51:49 <oklopol> but there was no theory on simple groups afair
21:52:12 <oklopol> well i actually read it a few minutes ago, so i think i can safely say there wasn't ;)
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22:27:46 <ehird> 21:27 oerjan: given that one usually assumes turing computable == possible, by the Turing thesis
22:27:50 <ehird> 21:36 oerjan: you are really being trolly these days
22:27:50 <ehird> you're being more confrontational these days :D
22:28:10 <oerjan> you're just saying that because you're an asshole
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22:33:31 <oerjan> <pikhq> So, Europe got really screwed over.
22:34:04 <oerjan> free local calls were never the custom here, i guess given that it's obvious they would do so
22:34:58 <oerjan> for dialup, that is, since it wouldn't be totally free per minute anyway
22:35:18 <Sgeo> All OOTS fans: 646 is up
22:36:51 <oerjan> oots got a bit too dark for me, i haven't read it since the familicide strip
22:36:57 * ehird plays with factor's irc.client
22:37:34 * oerjan realizes that might be considered a spoiler
22:39:20 <ehird> familicide? ooh, link!
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22:43:33 <ehird> http://code.google.com/p/libjit-linear-scan-register-allocator/ ← like time cube for jit solutions
22:43:47 <ehird> llvm is educated stupid!111
22:47:40 <Sgeo> "LibJIT has a huge .NET and Java background and huge real world experience."
22:47:52 <Sgeo> Is it just me, or does the person seem to think that LibJIT is a person?
22:48:17 <ehird> that would explain the ranting
22:51:26 <ehird> "*by clicking you are agreeing to our terms and conditions & privacy policy "
22:51:55 <ais523> in the US, you would be
22:52:09 <ais523> there's a controversial precedent that breaking the terms of service of a website is illegal under the same rules that ban hacking
22:52:25 <ais523> anyway, they said clicking, just use they keyboard
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23:14:13 <ehird> wow, culmulative gc time 12ms
23:14:24 <ehird> (total runtime 1.8s)
23:14:32 <ehird> (and average gc pause of 4us)
23:14:40 <ais523> maybe it didn't run out of memory very often, so didn't have to gc a lot
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23:15:03 <ehird> ais523: the benchmark is specifically designed to cause a lot of GCs
23:15:12 <ehird> also, running out of memory is not what triggers modern gcs
23:15:16 <ehird> in this case it's a generational collector
23:15:25 <pikhq> ais523: There's a far better argument against EULAs.
23:15:25 <ais523> things like allocating terabytes in a loop, but not using them
23:15:34 <ais523> pikhq: oh, there are lots; which in particular were you thinking of?
23:15:37 <ehird> : garbage 100 f <array> ;
23:15:37 <ehird> : garbage-loop 15000000 [ garbage drop ] times ;
23:15:38 <pikhq> First, it's a contract being presented under duress.
23:15:39 <ehird> [ garbage-loop ] time
23:15:50 <pikhq> Second, it's a contract that no reasonable person would agree to.
23:16:03 <ehird> ais523: that is: 15000000 times, push an array of 100 "false" elements onto the stack, then drop it
23:16:08 <ehird> "time" just reports the statistics
23:16:22 <pikhq> Third, *you don't need a license* to use software.
23:16:44 <ais523> pikhq: <dubious argument which is unfortunately a legal precedent>you're copying it into memory when you run it</dubious>
23:17:02 <pikhq> Which court set that precedent again?
23:17:11 <pikhq> Please say it's not federal.
23:17:14 <ehird> God I hate people who try to restrict digital copying.
23:17:21 <ehird> IT'S AN INHERENT PROPERTY OF THE MEDIUM, DOUCHEBAGS!
23:18:59 <ehird> the benchmark I used was actually
23:19:03 <ehird> : garbage 1 2 3 3array ;
23:19:03 <ehird> : garbage-loop 150000000 [ garbage drop ] times ;
23:19:04 <ehird> [ garbage-loop ] time
23:19:13 <ehird> which runs 100x more, but makes an array of only 3 elements
23:21:00 <pikhq> ais523: Also, 17 USC 117 explicitly allows you to make copies of software for running it or for backups.
23:21:19 * ehird runs ← → ↑ ↓ ↖ ↗ ↙ ↘
23:21:57 <oklopol> ehird: did you know if you run in every direction in a 2d world, forever, you will eventually get back to where you started.
23:22:15 <ehird> oklopol: erm a finite 2d world I assume
23:22:26 <ehird> and wrapping at that
23:22:30 <oklopol> you should add a third dimension to make it at least possible you'll never accidentally run back to Gracenotes.
23:23:01 <Gracenotes> you mean.. up n times, down n times, left n times, right n times, etc..??
23:23:05 <oerjan> it's a statistical probability = 1 theorem
23:23:08 <ais523> well, if it's a Lahey-world, you'll end up back where you started no matter which way you go
23:23:14 <ais523> even if it's an irrational direction
23:23:27 <oerjan> you're supposed to choose a random direction each step
23:23:47 <oklopol> oerjan: is the proof simple?
23:23:59 <oerjan> i don't recall if i've read it
23:24:34 <oklopol> i think i may have proved it for 1d at some point
23:24:47 <oerjan> yeah that's simple i think
23:25:09 <ehird> oh i thought you menat like
23:25:18 <ehird> walk forwards in any direction and you will get back to your original point
23:25:23 <ehird> even though the world is infinite
23:25:33 <ehird> 'cuz that would be trippy
23:25:51 <oklopol> oerjan: what if it's a continuous random walk and you get bigger and bigger as you go
23:25:57 <oklopol> will you ever touch your starting point
23:26:03 <oklopol> i guess you could just have a size.
23:26:10 <Gracenotes> "No, I didn't get back to where I started, you're just regularly placing start flags every few miles"
23:26:59 <oerjan> i don't know, i've never done much stochastic processes
23:27:58 <oklopol> that actually happens to be one of the quadrillion things i'm interested in.
23:29:21 <oerjan> hm i guess these are all markov processes
23:29:24 <oklopol> yeah like hey nice weather outside
23:29:46 <oklopol> and you grab your dies and start throwin
23:31:36 <Gracenotes> this is interesting. according to wiki, certain random walks will return 'home' in 1 or 2 dimensions, but are not guaranteed to do so in 3 dimensions
23:33:09 <Gracenotes> 'tis interesting that it doesn't hold in higher dimensions
23:33:12 <oklopol> <oklopol> you should add a third dimension to make it at least possible you'll never accidentally run back to Gracenotes.
23:33:33 <ehird> TUPLE: point x y ;
23:33:35 <ehird> : <point> ( x y -- point ) point boa ;
23:33:36 <ehird> 120 00 <point> . ! T{ point { x 100 } { y 200 } }
23:33:39 <ehird> ↑ I don't know why but I love writing trivial examples that I already know I know how to write
23:33:43 <ehird> (that ! thang is a comment)
23:33:44 <Gracenotes> oklopol: it was implied. if you already got it
23:34:23 <Gracenotes> governed by a property, it seems, called transiency. This is in fact vewy interestingg
23:37:53 <oerjan> the part about random walks of graphs and electrical resistance is also interesting
23:38:24 <oerjan> transiency <=> resistance to infinity is finite
23:40:08 * oerjan wonders if adding diodes would correspond to using a directed graph
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23:44:17 <ais523> in practice, they aren't a simple "let current only in one direction"
23:44:27 <ais523> there are all sorts of other weirdnesses to deal with, even in theory
23:44:39 <ais523> it's best to think of them as being very different in the two directions, but not perfect in either
23:45:43 <GregorR> Apparently, when Wendy's says "Honey BBQ chicken wings", what they mean is "chicken nuggets served in sauce"
23:50:12 <oklopol> ais523: our electronics book had about 50 pages about different models for diodes
23:50:45 <ais523> the exponential-with-offset model is the best one I've seen, and easily good enough in practice for just about anything
23:51:02 <oklopol> well that's the "physically correct" one
23:51:05 <ais523> tbh, the constant-voltage-drop model is good enough in practice unless you're doing something really weird
23:51:21 <oklopol> there was some kinda derivation of it, although i understood it not.
23:51:53 <oklopol> most likely, i wouldn't know ofc :P
23:52:05 <oklopol> i remember the book said so.
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