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00:35:38 <oerjan> SortaRoundaboutButItMightGetThereEventuallyIfYouArePatientNet.
00:35:47 <ehird> A FUNCTION OVER 1000 LINES
00:38:45 * kerlo looks at it, and finds it not all that useful for building stuff on top of.
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00:39:43 <ehird> ais523: can you slap GregorR? He wrote a function that's over 1000 lines long.
00:40:11 <ais523> that's perfectly reasonable in asm, for instance
00:40:26 <ehird> It's a huge, gigantic, multi-thousand line spaghetti interpreter loop.
00:41:01 <ais523> I think the C version of ADVENT has functions that long, but then it /was/ machine-translated from the Fortran
00:41:48 <GregorR> A) It's not spaghetti code, it's many independent sub-functions each separately labeled and not inter-operating, part of a threaded interpreter loop.
00:42:08 <kerlo> Name of a safe Haskell function: callCC
00:42:14 <GregorR> B) The only difference between having it as it is and having it in separate functions is sed s/label(.*);/} void \1() {/
00:42:21 <kerlo> Name of an unsafe Haskell function: unsafeImitationSchemeStyleCallWithCurrentContinuation
00:42:58 <oerjan> probably because callCC is in a ContMonad
00:43:09 <kerlo> But I'm not able to figure out what you guys are talking about.
00:43:59 <ehird> kerlo is sounding like an ai
00:44:11 <oerjan> 01:43 =oerjan> @type callCC
00:44:11 <oerjan> 01:43 =lambdabot> forall a (m :: * -> *) b. (MonadCont m) => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
00:44:52 <kerlo> Eight o's, seven k's.
00:45:15 <oerjan> it thus fulfils the oko invariant
00:48:24 <okloduk> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
00:49:11 <kerlo> Anyway, unsafe...Continuation looked something like this:
00:50:56 <ais523> grrr, Dichotomy II is nasty
00:51:03 <ais523> it's one of my new Enigma levels, but it only works on 1.1
00:51:15 <ais523> it would have been rather complex to write correctly in the old API
00:51:19 <ais523> the new one is so much better
00:52:12 <kerlo> data Void; void :: Void -> a; void = unsafeCoerce; unsafeRemoveNotNot :: ((a -> Void) -> Void) -> a; unsafeRemoveNotNot x = void (x unsafeCoerce)
00:53:01 <oerjan> sweet baby jesus, or something
00:54:24 <kerlo> And then unsafe...Continuation was just a proof of Peirce's law using double negation elimination.
00:54:36 <kerlo> It didn't actually behave like call-with-current-continuation at all.
00:55:18 <oerjan> it hardly could, given that that unsafeRemoveNotNot does not produce a real a at all...
00:55:41 <ais523> that's quite a function
00:55:47 <ais523> sort of the opposite of Unlambda's !
00:59:31 <ais523> oh dear, geocities has been finally killed by yahoo
00:59:40 <ais523> that's half the esolang information in existance down the drain...
01:00:05 <ehird> just no new registrations
01:00:24 <kerlo> It produces a real a if its input is safe. I think.
01:00:30 <ehird> ais523: can you seriously imagining them deleting all that?
01:00:32 <ehird> they'd be murdered!
01:00:40 <ehird> geocities is _gigantic_
01:00:44 <ais523> I can imagine it, and how would they be murdered?
01:01:05 <ehird> because it still hosts very popular sites, huge amounts of nostalgia, and is generally huge?
01:01:10 <kerlo> Hey, I think i just realized why this channel makes no sense.
01:01:19 <ehird> kerlo: you're ignoring me?
01:01:42 <oerjan> kerlo: is it because of the little butterflies?
01:02:38 * oerjan frolicks in the meta-ambiguity
01:02:38 <kerlo> It's because I'm selectively deaf.
01:03:43 <kerlo> I'm a sort of selectively deaf in person, too.
01:04:08 <oerjan> i hear that's a common trait in teenagers
01:04:33 <ehird> http://www.sitesnoopy.com/ /me shiver
01:06:54 * oerjan checks that he is completely unignorant
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01:32:06 * kerlo ponders a peer-to-peer system
01:35:36 * oerjan peers into a pond-to-pond system
01:37:54 <kerlo> Protocol: Alice sends to Bob a public key in plaintext. Bob sends to Alice a shared key encrypted with the public key. Alice sends to Bob a recipient ID, a request ID, and any extra data, encrypted with the shared key. Bob sends to Alice the recipient ID and request ID again along with a response, all encrypted with the shared key.
01:37:59 <kerlo> And all this is signed.
01:39:04 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi.
01:39:08 <kerlo> If Bob has the recipient ID and request ID cached, the response can be the cached response; otherwise, he asks someone else to handle the request.
01:40:43 <kerlo> Alternatively, if he has the private key associated with the recipient ID, he can make up a response and send that.
01:42:29 <oerjan> Mallory of course intercepts the initial public key and substitutes her own.
01:42:49 <kerlo> Mallory can't sign the initial public key.
01:43:11 <ais523> Mallory's female, now?
01:43:33 <pikhq> I thought the usual person was Eve, anyways.
01:43:40 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_and_Bob
01:43:44 <ais523> eve is specifically an evesdropper
01:43:50 <ais523> mallory's more devious than that
01:44:47 <kerlo> Eve looks at the public key and signature, sees that she knows how to decode Alice's signatures, and verifies that Alice is up to something.
01:46:39 <kerlo> So, let's try that again.
01:46:51 <Slereah_> Alice and Bob like to zoom around spaceships in relativity
01:47:11 <kerlo> Alice sends Bob a shared key, encrypted and signed. Alice sends Bob the stuff, Bob sends Alice the resulting stuff.
01:47:43 <kerlo> And hey, it's a pretty simple profile. "Alice sent a bunch of random-looking data to Bob, then Bob sent a bunch of random-looking data back. I wonder if they're up to something."
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02:12:05 <fungot> oklopol: " we want to, when fnord is such a disgusting thing to break down now and--' sacharissa began. and then on ankh itself, the little cherub," she repeated. " part of my duty, that's what sorts out the men from the path of the fleet, an area of sea was mill-pond calm. from behind them.
02:12:21 <oklopol> reality check, youtube won't open
02:12:49 <oklopol> maybe that's some local fungot.
02:12:50 <fungot> oklopol: " you're certain you've got no whoosh left in them fingers of yours?' said the count, pouring a tarry brown liquid into the mug. ' i don't quite see where we stayed, it was putting on an incredibly good act.
02:13:06 <ais523> oklopol: I'm not here really
02:13:10 <fungot> oerjan: carrot proudly lifted it out of the ground, far away. i was expecting... anyway...
02:13:12 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld* europarl ff7 fisher ic irc lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
02:13:17 <kerlo> Recreating the tone with none of the sense.
02:13:56 <oklopol> i just wanted to hear a sleepy tune and now i'm waking up more and more trying to get internet to exist :<
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02:16:17 <fungot> oklopol: " that's one lad who won't know what day it is. is...
02:20:46 <oerjan> fungot: you're not much for upper-case, i see
02:20:46 <fungot> oerjan: then he remembered his responsibilities. he went on, taking advantage of the long table.
02:22:08 <ais523> *** Channel modes: topic protection, no messages from outside, no colors allowed, limited to 263 users
02:22:13 * ais523 wonders why that exact limit
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06:40:02 <Esoteric> i like the look of this channel
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06:53:04 <pikhq> Puntastic, though.
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10:02:37 <fizzie> Heh, this conference thing takes (mostly) place on Mon-Wed, June 22-24... but in the detailed program, the presentations are marked to be on "Monday, June 22", "Tuesday, June 23" and "Thursday, June 24". Something's not quite correct here.
10:03:14 <fizzie> Maybe IN SOVIET RUSSIA a Thursday comes after Tuesday you.
10:04:01 <fizzie> (It's in St. Petersburg.)
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13:45:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, lifthrasiir, hi there.
13:46:22 <AnMaster> what is the correct behaviour for FIXP when given out of range parameters. Such as -1 to the Q (sqrt)
13:46:58 <AnMaster> cfunge and rc/funge pushes NaN cast to int. CCBI and efunge pushes 0. PyFunge reflects.
13:47:26 <AnMaster> as far as I understand the very non-detailed spec.
13:47:39 <Deewiant> The spec is 'Q(a -- sqrt(a))Square root'
13:47:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, same applies to B (acos) btw.
13:48:51 <AnMaster> Deewiant, mycology doesn't test those two (found with coverage analysis of efunge, since I have to fake NaN due to erlang throwing exceptions on translating floating point nan/inf).
13:49:18 <AnMaster> was trying to write two things at once
13:49:22 <okloduk> why would it test something that isn't specced
13:49:34 <okloduk> or did you just mean the functions in general
13:49:42 <Deewiant> So that it can tell the implementer that hey, this thing isn't specced, are you sure this behaviour is what you want
13:50:12 <Deewiant> And often, unspecced input has meant that the interpreter crashes, which isn't supposed to happen
13:50:31 <okloduk> what's supposed to happen, reflect?
13:51:16 <Deewiant> Either reflect, do the sensible-but-not-specified thing, or go with "garbage in, garbage out".
13:51:20 <okloduk> i mean if anything may happen, testing is pretty much impossible
13:51:30 <Deewiant> Sure, which is why it doesn't /test/ it per se
13:51:33 <okloduk> if it's truly unspecced, then it's not safe to test it.
13:51:40 <Deewiant> It just does something and outputs what the result was
13:52:01 <Deewiant> "UNDEF: giving foo the input bar resulted in the output baz"
13:52:10 <AnMaster> as long as it doesn't crash or cause memory corruption, locks up in infinite loop or some other "really bad thing" I'm happy.
13:52:14 <okloduk> but isn't it legal to crash for unspecced stuff?
13:52:30 <Deewiant> Strictly speaking, I suppose, yes.
13:52:38 <AnMaster> well maybe it is, but I was writing this test for cfunge/efunge
13:52:39 <Deewiant> I'm just opinionated that way. :-P
13:52:41 <okloduk> right, that's what i thought
13:52:45 <AnMaster> and I usually try it on other interpreters too
13:53:31 <okloduk> Deewiant: if it's not actually unspecced, but somewhat specced, redefine unspecced, don't say that's a stupid definition so we'll go by what's more intuitive here.
13:53:43 <AnMaster> but for cfunge and efunge it is a requirement to not crash, with the possible exception of OOM (which I still try to not crash on but I don't promise anything).
13:54:20 <okloduk> Deewiant: err, that unspecced should be interpreted strictly, as should everything else.
13:54:26 <AnMaster> or stuff out of my control (failing hardware for example, or buggy OS)
13:54:36 <Deewiant> Did I interpret it non-strictly somewhere?
13:54:50 <okloduk> 15:52… Deewiant: I'm just opinionated that way. :-P <<< maybe i misunderstood this
13:55:22 <Deewiant> okloduk: That's referring to the fact that Mycology takes the attitude that the interp shouldn't crash
13:55:47 <Deewiant> Or I do, when tallying results, anyway. :-P
13:56:03 <Deewiant> I /have/ removed one test from Mycology due to rethinking my position and allowing it to be an infinite loop.
13:56:40 <okloduk> Deewiant: right, and i'm saying you shouldn't do that. but difference of opinion ofc, and you're much more of an authority than me.
14:02:14 <Deewiant> My attitude is based on the fact that the spec says that unimplemented instructions should cause a reflection
14:02:27 <Deewiant> I'm just extending that to unimplemented input, essentially
14:02:54 <Deewiant> Reflection is the generic way of reporting an error in funge
14:03:11 <Deewiant> I think the interpreter crashing is like any compiler crashing on malformed code
14:03:31 <Deewiant> okloduk: I.e. invalid input which isn't handled in any way to avoid crashing.
14:03:42 <Deewiant> It's "unimplemented" in that sense.
14:04:17 <okloduk> right unimplemented in the interp
14:04:35 <okloduk> maybe "implemented" might have hinted it was about the implementation.
14:05:52 <okloduk> Deewiant: i guess in practise i'd punch my computer in the face if a compiler actually handled unspecced stuff in a rigorously unspecced fashion.
14:06:38 <Deewiant> In practice, specs don't matter ;-P
14:07:06 <okloduk> and i guess i also agree reflection is the canonical way to do errors, and should be expected.
14:07:23 <okloduk> well i'm sure i'm still right about something.
14:08:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you handle OOM in stack stack wrong according to spec
14:08:35 <AnMaster> $ ../other/ccbi/ccbi_linux/ccbi.64 stack-stack-over.b98
14:08:35 <AnMaster> Exited due to an error: Memory allocation failed at :0 (tango.core.Exception.OutOfMemoryException)
14:09:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm fixing it in cfunge atm :P
14:10:40 <Deewiant> It's probably allocating the stack successfully
14:10:47 <Deewiant> But then fails at the temporary buffer for copying
14:11:07 <Deewiant> Because I don't break the stack abstraction!
14:11:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I had to do break it even more to fix this in cfunge btw.
14:11:37 <Deewiant> Alternatively, it could fail at pushing the offset afterwards.
14:11:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since I used same "ensure stack has enough space" as for normal string pushing
14:11:54 <Deewiant> But in any case, it did not fail at allocating a stack.
14:12:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you have a lot of ram then.
14:12:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, since you have to ensure you have enough space to push all those values on the stack.
14:12:58 <AnMaster> anyway it is a bug in ccbi considering how the spec reads.
14:13:04 <Deewiant> Ah yes, it might fail in the pushing stage as well.
14:13:23 <AnMaster> "{ may act like r if no more memory is available for another stack. } acts like r if a stack-stack underflow would otherwise occur (i.e. when there is only one stack on the stack-stack.)"
14:13:26 <Deewiant> Quoth the spec: "{ may act like r if no more memory is available for another stack."
14:13:46 <Deewiant> Firstly, memory was available for another stack.
14:13:54 <Deewiant> Just not for the cells to copy there.
14:14:09 <AnMaster> the first point didn't make sense
14:14:19 <AnMaster> wouldn't the space needed be included in the new stack.
14:14:22 <Deewiant> It doesn't specify what constitutes "another stack".
14:14:43 <Deewiant> I agree that I'm being a bit anal about this but strictly speaking I'm right.
14:15:17 <fizzie> { is even specified so that the "another stack" is allocated *before* those blocks are copied; there's nothing about reserving space in the new stack.
14:15:19 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: sorry, i had a nap a while. i also think it is undefined.
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14:20:46 <lifthrasiir> and i'm not sure that memory allocation failure should reflect or gracefully exit
14:21:02 <AnMaster> so lets see what ccbi does on k{
14:22:19 <okloduk> Oletetaan, että seuraavat kaksi väittämää ovat totta:
14:22:20 <okloduk> Kaikki punatukkaiset miehet ovat pahansisuisia.
14:22:20 <okloduk> Aatu on punatukkainen mies.
14:22:37 <fizzie> You mean Aatu's mean-spirited?!
14:22:56 <okloduk> that's an internet iq test thingie
14:23:09 <okloduk> (i usually fill every pop-up type thing that pops up)
14:23:17 <okloduk> and it used to be everywhere
14:23:24 <okloduk> but now considerably less so
14:23:47 <okloduk> assume the following two things are truw
14:23:58 <okloduk> - all readheads are ill-tempered (?)
14:24:02 <fizzie> Claim, statement. Not just "thing".
14:24:07 <fizzie> And I would use mean-spirited there.
14:24:24 <fizzie> All read-aheads are mean-spirited.
14:24:44 <okloduk> - Not deduceable from these two statements
14:25:47 <Deewiant> This test is complete crap :-D
14:25:49 <fizzie> They're obviously testing whether you are capable of mentally adding the obvious missing actual question part there.
14:26:35 <okloduk> well actually i suck at those reorder characters tests, thay are my weak spot, took like 30 seconds to get that one
14:27:00 <okloduk> well maybe it's actually non-trivial, but still, i do suck at it
14:28:00 <Deewiant> Meh, you don't get a result without giving them a phone number
14:28:11 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, btw at that { OOM I get a traceback from pyfunge.
14:28:53 <Deewiant> Or maybe it's a real one and somebody else's :-/
14:29:06 <Deewiant> Aw, they still don't give a result
14:29:17 <lifthrasiir> PyFunge doesn't check for it yet, but i should add some message for it in 0.5
14:29:21 <okloduk> 1.50 euros per received message
14:29:27 <AnMaster> odd, pyfunge needs a high ulimit for virtual memory to be able to run
14:29:36 <okloduk> does that actually mean you can just charge anyone whose number you know?
14:29:36 <AnMaster> and I'm not going to test this without ulimit
14:29:50 <Deewiant> okloduk: No, because you need to send them a message
14:29:57 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, anyway I get a memory error too on "PXIF"4(\k{
14:30:04 <AnMaster> where it won't push anything after first
14:30:05 <Deewiant> So first you give them your number and then you send a message from that number so it knows what result to give you
14:30:54 <fizzie> Whaaat, it asks a phone number? That was the stupidity.
14:31:08 <okloduk> that's the beauty of pop-up stuff
14:36:11 <AnMaster> I wonder why I found a program called "test.b98" with this in it:
14:36:13 <AnMaster> fffff****kfff fffff****{ fffff****{ fffff****{ fffff****{ fffff****{ fffff****} fffff****} fffff****} fffff****} fffff****} n fffff****{ @
14:37:14 <AnMaster> even rcfunge1 works just fine on it seems useless.
14:38:04 <AnMaster> though pyfunge is rather slow on it.
14:39:26 <AnMaster> cfunge, rcfunge1, rcfunge2, ccbi, pyfunge (fastest first)
14:39:44 <lifthrasiir> hmm, is there any difference between that test with ulimit and without ulimit?
14:40:00 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, that last one? no, it isn't even related to it.
14:40:06 <AnMaster> it doesn't ever hit any limit on here.
14:40:58 <AnMaster> gives memory error in both cases
14:41:18 <AnMaster> I don't plan to test without ulimit
14:41:41 <AnMaster> it is allocating a tiny amount each time
14:41:58 <AnMaster> so malloc() won't return NULL right away, like it does for the first one.
14:42:38 <lifthrasiir> well they are as i expected. i thought you see some difference in it with/without ulimit... :p
14:44:25 <AnMaster> cfunge needs 23.5 MB (64-bit binary, 32-bit cells, concurrent) to even get as far as running. CCBI (64 bit binary) needs 27 MB. pyfunge needs 40 MB. That is for "virtual memory" (ulimit -v), the actual data used is much less, the large number is due to mmap() of various *.so at start up. A lot more of them for pyfunge
14:45:05 <AnMaster> I suspect the value will be rather high for efunge too. But I haven't tried yet
14:45:44 <Deewiant> Vmem doesn't mean much, does it?
14:45:48 <lifthrasiir> python itself takes much memory for numbers, since it stores integer as an object (~20 bytes in IA-32 i think) as well
14:45:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it does restrict total memory usage, including any mmap()ed stuff.
14:46:14 <AnMaster> as well as heap allocations (and stack too I'm pretty sure)
14:46:29 <Deewiant> Still doesn't mean much in practice ;-P
14:46:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, it means I won't get hit by the horrible OOM killer.
14:47:14 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: then it will use much memory than IA-32, but i cannot recall the exact number
14:47:18 <AnMaster> ok I invoke the "may" bit for efunge
14:47:22 <AnMaster> Crash dump was written to: erl_crash.dump
14:47:22 <AnMaster> eheap_alloc: Cannot allocate 4113832 bytes of memory (of type "heap").
14:47:29 <AnMaster> and I can't actually catch that
14:48:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um, modules coded in C are supported by erlang, but they all talk over a stream-like "port"
14:48:40 <AnMaster> so it would be hard to use the allocated chunk inside erlang.
14:51:02 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: by the way what version of pyfunge you are testing against? i just released pyfunge 0.5-rc2 but i wonder if someone uses hg snapshot...
14:51:15 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, hg from some days ago.
14:52:28 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, btw a few days ago when I did that I couldn't get it to work, it was complaining about "pyfunge being a directory" or something like that iirc.
14:52:39 <AnMaster> I ended up checking it out from scratch.
14:52:48 <Deewiant> Yeah, lifthrasiir evilly replaced the old pyfunge-directory with a pyfunge-file
14:53:07 <AnMaster> oh right and since python creates those *.pyc ...
14:53:25 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: that occurred before rc1, so that's fine </evil>
14:54:09 <AnMaster> I have done stuff like that with bzr without issues. As long as there are no unversioned files in the directory being replaced it should work.
14:54:19 <AnMaster> even with remove and add being done in same revision.
14:54:35 <lifthrasiir> i haven't met such case yet, but if that's a problem you can hg up -r 0000 && hg up (perhaps).
14:54:46 <Deewiant> Given that there likely were *.pyc, that might be the reason
14:54:52 <Deewiant> I just removed the directory :-P
14:55:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I tried that but then hg up first recreated the directory and then complained again.
14:55:30 <AnMaster> which is when I gave up and checked out a clean copy
14:55:42 <Deewiant> Then maybe I did something else, can't remember
14:58:48 <AnMaster> I think efunge is the most "enterprisy" funge-98 interpreter. Any other interpreter with a supervisor that can restart some of the subsystems if they should crash? (Logging an error of course.) Input handling subsystem for example.
14:58:58 <AnMaster> I'm not sure "enterprisy" is a good or bad thing here...
15:02:48 <fizzie> I'll be certain to consider the efunge platform in my next enterprise-grade Funge-98 project, whatever that may be.
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15:08:15 <AnMaster> fizzie, it doesn't support a lot of fingerprints yet though.
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15:41:34 <fizzie> fungot: Feeling all right there?
15:41:34 <fungot> fizzie: to snarf, with minimal if any other, saner members. it is suggestive that there are four distinct boolean-valued functions of one of a glass tty, having the reply bit set" and " drink me" and now nearly obsolete even there, and
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16:32:22 <fizzie> That was passing strange; when waking up from suspend-to-ram, one of my hard drives refused to start. Rebooting made it operational again. Though now it needs to resync the raid thing.
16:33:46 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
16:34:08 <AnMaster> fizzie, for how long has it had that style
16:34:19 <fizzie> AnMaster: Since the "just a moment" restart up there.
16:34:27 <fungot> AnMaster: services a purpose ( similar to several that arise in code that would do this sort of trapdoor, so much live usages in themselves as hackers, creating a snowball effect.
16:34:31 <fizzie> Although it is a bit unfun.
16:34:46 <fungot> AnMaster: camel book, the term may be due to
16:35:04 <fizzie> Surprisingly the Culture books produced reasonably funny-sounding output; but I already have so many "normal authors" there.
16:35:37 <AnMaster> culture books... You mean like lovecraft or..
16:36:29 <Deewiant> Who has written many novels about "the Culture"
16:36:43 <AnMaster> oh I thought he meant like "books considered classical culture thingy"
16:38:04 <AnMaster> fizzie, do you have any graph over which style is most popular
16:38:35 <fizzie> No; I guess I should have a voting system so you could give feedback after each comment.
16:38:48 <AnMaster> I don't know if "time it is turned on during" or "lines said in style" would be most interesting
16:38:53 <fizzie> For the Culture style I dumped in Consider Phlebas, The Player of Games, The State of the Art (although that's not all culture), Use of Weapons, Against a Dark Background (which also is very non-Culturey), Excession and Look to Windward. It was nice, but I didn't bother adding it to the bot.
16:39:09 <fizzie> It's hard to notice style-changes, since I sometimes do ^style in a query.
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16:39:54 <AnMaster> as for voting, I don't think it would work. We are too lazy for it in this channel.
16:40:25 <fizzie> Just "yes" in general?
16:40:44 <fizzie> You're quite a yes-man.
16:42:09 <AnMaster> okloduk, do you plan to say no ever?
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16:44:31 <ehird> fizzie: dump jargon
16:44:34 <ehird> I want the Hacker's Dictionary
16:44:39 <ehird> As It Should Be, With ITS Jargon Galore.
16:46:15 <Deewiant> The Devil's Dictionary might be amusing.
16:47:23 <ehird> fizzie: UNIX-HATERS, please.
16:47:37 <ehird> Either an archive of the list or the book.
16:48:40 -!- Hiato has quit (Connection timed out).
16:49:49 <ehird> In 1999 Syse Data was converted to a limited liability company, and has since been trading under the name Syse Data AS[1]. As the names are so similar, searches for our company in the official Norwegian registry of just-about-anything (Brønnøysundregistrene) often resulted in potential customers looking up the wrong company. To prevent this confusion we recently changed the name of the old (non-LLC) company, and figured we'd use the opportunity for som
16:49:51 <ehird> e harmless - or so we thought - fun.
16:49:53 <ehird> The old company was renamed to:
16:49:55 <ehird> ';UPDATE TAXRATE SET RATE = 0 WHERE NAME = 'EDVIN SYSE'
16:49:57 <ehird> The name is a reference to an old XKCD-strip:
16:49:59 <ehird> http://xkcd.com/327/
16:50:01 <ehird> The fun quickly turned out not to be as harmless as we thought, and it created quite the buzz around the Internet:
16:50:04 <ehird> http://www.google.no/search?q=edvin+taxrate
16:50:06 <ehird> This in turn created enough traffic at Brønnøysundregistrene for them to request that we change the name. We apologise for the inconvenience this has caused for Brønnøysundregistrene.
16:50:09 <ehird> https://www.sysedata.no/nyheter/edvin-tables#english
16:55:02 <fizzie> ehird: For perversity's sake, I uploaded that unix-haters mailing list archive language model over the current .jargon files in fungot; so it's there now as style "jargon" with a very misleading description.
16:55:02 <fungot> fizzie: jackie promes apple computer alliance will work the first word, there *is* something worse!!! workstations that do offer no suggested remedy.
16:55:13 <fungot> ehird: just to help you if i wrote the line setenv editor `which emacs`, ttys and processes that " /net/ mc/ u/fubar that adds to the point of view or another.
16:55:18 <fungot> ehird: firstly, there's this problem is that i don't see anything which looked like assembly instructions for a bad feeling about this being standard unix bug. this is what it was looking at trees.
17:06:31 <AnMaster> wow, over 700 MB of trace data from running efunge:start("mycology.b98") under fprof.
17:07:33 * AnMaster waits while fprof is processing this huge file.
17:07:59 * ehird works on naive allocator for memory pool
17:19:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, can we get the usual jargon file back.
17:19:17 <ehird> no, the jargon file is shit.
17:19:25 <AnMaster> well, at least rename this one
17:19:56 <AnMaster> this one isn't very funny as a language model either.
17:20:04 <fungot> ehird: build a new, improved vacation program that generates names for future backward compat. currently 0 1215: ( files " machines/ mips/ decls")
17:20:10 <ehird> "build a new, improved vacation program that generates names for future backward compat"
17:20:14 <ehird> fungot: be witty again
17:20:15 <fungot> ehird: i cannot save the new one-, followed by the source information into the shell, type " ls" and i sometimes get them confused for some flaming:
17:20:23 <ehird> "i cannot save the new one-, followed by the source information into the shell"
17:21:34 <ehird> AnMaster: aren't you the one who always says that humour is subjective therefore if someone considers something funny it is
17:21:38 <okloduk> haha, fungot say more i'm dying of laughter
17:21:38 <fungot> okloduk: mtmp mo 3; ytmp yr; long mo; long da; long ctmp; long dtmp; long mtmp; long ytmp; long result1; long result2; long result3; was at recently...
17:21:41 <ehird> or, right, does it only apply to you.
17:21:44 <fungot> ehird: computron server ( sunos 4.1) ready. name ( magna:pd):
17:21:50 <fungot> ehird: w) stark white pages ( name lookup) service, they get panned for it.
17:21:51 <okloduk> fungot: i get it they're variables right :D
17:21:52 <fungot> okloduk: on a usenix talk they gave on the
17:21:55 <fungot> ehird: this would have taken to removing people from mailing lists, etc...
17:22:00 <AnMaster> ehird, you seem to have convinced me of the opposite.
17:25:51 <pikhq> ehird, what about the Jargon File, before ESR touched it?
17:26:10 <ehird> pikhq: It was called the Hacker's Dictionary.
17:26:20 <pikhq> When published, yes.
17:26:21 <ehird> Which I requested.
17:26:33 <ehird> pikhq: Well, you could call it jargon.txt, I suppose.
17:27:00 <pikhq> Or "the Jargon file", as it was sometimes called.
17:27:36 <pikhq> But, yeah. Hacker's Dictionary, please. Along with UNIX-HATERS.
17:27:42 <ehird> pikhq: We have UNIX-HATERS.
17:27:44 <ehird> fungot: Hate unix.
17:27:45 <fungot> ehird: of course you're logged in as him, and
17:27:50 <pikhq> What I'm saying is keep it.
17:27:56 <ehird> We could have hdict and uhaters.
17:28:22 <pikhq> Ah, UNIX-HATERS... Old-school UNIX really was shitty then.
17:29:19 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, the same criticisms still apply to a degree.
17:29:25 <ehird> Lisp Machines _are_ a much better model...
17:30:30 <pikhq> Modern-day UNIX doesn't have all the same flaws, and some of the ones it has are becoming irrelevant.
17:31:37 <ehird> It's still a hack. :)
17:32:09 <pikhq> It's at least a hack that works well.
17:32:27 <pikhq> Which makes it quite different from the *other* major OS out there. ;)
17:34:04 <ehird> pikhq: Psst... plan 9... Loper... they exist :). Well, one exists.
17:34:11 <ehird> [[CANONICAL adj. The usual or standard state or manner of something. A true story: One Bob Sjoberg, new at the MIT AI Lab, expressed some annoyance at the use of jargon. Over his loud objections, we made a point of using jargon as much as possible in his presence, and eventually it began to sink in. Finally, in one conversation, he used the word "canonical" in jargon-like fashion without thinking. Steele: "Aha! We've finally got you talking jargon too!"
17:34:13 <ehird> Stallman: "What did he say?" Steele: "He just used `canonical' in the canonical way." ]]
17:34:15 <ehird> I want this framed
17:37:33 <pikhq> There's definitely better OSes out there.
17:37:39 <pikhq> Plan 9 is beautiful.
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17:55:36 <AnMaster> yay reduced that to a 449 MB trace (thanks to removing 4 extra db checks for every time ip moved).
17:56:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, this does not mean I'm going speed crazy with efunge, just I'm tired of it being so slow.
17:57:24 <ehird> I was born into a family of inter-generational satanists, members of the global elite conspiracy referred to as the New World Order. After suffering horrific abuse by my relatives I was sold to the CIA for mind control experimentation. I was eventually rescued by aliens who transported me to their mothership. I was subjected to years of testing and evaluation by these beings and eventually found worthy to host the consciousness of an advanced being that
17:57:26 <ehird> lives in the Alpha Centauri system. I retain some memories of my childhood as a human, but my conscious awareness is transmitted to the cybernetic body I currently inhabit, from Alpha Centauri.
17:57:29 <ehird> — http://a08201960a.livejournal.com/profile
17:58:31 <ehird> It seems a little too ridiculous to be a nutcase.
17:59:06 <AnMaster> well... so did timecube first time I saw it. I assumed it was a joke and was rather surprised when I found out it was a nutcase.
18:00:14 <ehird> An atheist group which is to begin advising the BBC on religious programmes such as Thought for the Day is heralding the change as a “great step”.
18:00:15 <ehird> Prominent atheists such as A C Grayling and Phillip Pullman have also welcomed the move to allow ‘non-religious’ groups to influence religious programming.
18:00:18 <ehird> However, the move is likely to exacerbate concerns that the BBC is increasingly neglecting its Christian audience.
18:00:21 <ehird> — http://www.christian.org.uk/news/20090421/atheist-to-join-new-bbc-religion-board/
18:00:24 <ehird> These people are obsessed with the bbc!
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19:08:34 <fizzieds> strange that this dsorg-irc said "cannot join #esoteric, requires registered nick!"
19:09:17 <fizzieds> i guess i'm not really here, then.
19:10:00 <fizzieds> fungot: do you think i'm here?
19:10:00 <fungot> fizzieds: received: by cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com ( 5.57/ uucp-project/ commodore jan 13 1990). see section 3.2.4 for caveats. now if i want a job on this
19:17:11 <fizzieds> hi, figment of my imagination.
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19:20:38 <AnMaster> also the modes doesn't include +r or +R or whichever it was that meant "need registered nick"
19:21:23 <fizzieds> it doesn't always say that, only sometimes.
19:22:49 <AnMaster> your client doesn't respond to either CTCP PING or CTCP VERSION
19:23:06 <AnMaster> or wait, I'm blocking /msg from unregistered
19:23:51 <AnMaster> why not use your normal computer instead
19:24:04 <AnMaster> -fizzieds- VERSION DSOrganize IRC 3.2 by DragonMinded
19:24:44 <fizzie> "Fatal Error! DSOrganize has run out of free file handles."
19:24:48 <fizzie> It does that quite often.
19:25:12 <fizzie> I wasn't using this because the cat has occupied my chair, and standing on my knees like this is tiresome.
19:25:23 <fizzie> Maybe I should take the laptop to bed instead of the DS, though.
19:27:43 <AnMaster> oh wait, profiling screwing up on recursive functions.
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20:25:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I just realised there is an easy way to support "software suspend" in efunge :D
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21:20:08 <Deewiant> ehird: Re: reusing CCBI 1 code, here's the latest commit: 'rewrite fingerprints/cats_eye/toys.d (81%)'
21:21:50 <Deewiant> Can I get git or diffstat to show rewrite stats for arbitrary commits?
21:22:04 <ehird> That's more of a #git question, I think.
21:22:07 <ehird> I'm interested too.
21:25:26 <Deewiant> -B says "detect complete rewrites" but it doesn't seem to detect or say anything
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21:30:00 <Deewiant> Not as bad as I thought, then. Only 4 rewrites and only TURT left.
21:30:08 <Deewiant> rewrite fingerprints/cats_eye/toys.d (81%)
21:30:08 <Deewiant> rewrite fingerprints/cats_eye/orth.d (74%)
21:30:08 <Deewiant> rewrite fingerprints/cats_eye/mode.d (72%)
21:30:08 <Deewiant> rewrite fingerprints/cats_eye/hrti.d (69%)
21:34:00 <Ilari> Its git diff-tree nowadays. :-)
21:34:19 <Deewiant> Yes, but the manpage says git-diff-tree.
21:35:17 <Ilari> SYNOPIS: git diff-tree [--stdin] [-m] ...
21:35:25 <ehird> Deewiant: So, you changed to git?
21:35:32 <Deewiant> git-diff-tree - Compares the content and mode of blobs found via two
21:35:43 <Deewiant> Also "Note that git-diff-tree..."
21:35:58 <ehird> To the repository.
21:36:52 <Deewiant> Not publically hosted and I don't have a permanent server up; if you want to clone, let me know and I'll put something temporary up :-P
21:37:12 <ehird> My request for a URI was based on the want to clone, yes...
21:37:47 <Deewiant> Just confirming that the URI will work only when you ask me to make it work.
21:38:04 <ehird> Deewiant: Make it work :-P
21:38:12 <ehird> Pedantry is important.
21:38:23 <Deewiant> I guess "git daemon" is enough?
21:39:02 <Ilari> Deewiant: In fact with version I have: "bash: git-diff-tree: command not found".
21:39:04 <Deewiant> Assuming it uses some kind of default port, git://tar.us.to
21:39:44 <Ilari> Deewiant: git daemon is server for git://. The default port is 9418.
21:40:22 <ehird> Deewiant: Try "git instaweb", too.
21:40:27 <Deewiant> Yes, and I assume that if I just do 'git daemon' then ehird can do 'git clone git://tar.us.to' and it'll work
21:40:36 <ehird> That serves gitweb over HTTP.
21:40:38 <ehird> Dunno what port it uses.
21:40:56 <ehird> Initialized empty Git repository in /Users/ehird/Downloads/ccbi2/.git/
21:40:56 <ehird> [0: ::1]: errno=Connection refused
21:40:58 <ehird> [0: 127.0.0.1]: errno=Connection refused
21:41:00 <ehird> fatal: unable to connect a socket (Connection refused)
21:41:03 <ehird> Deewiant: it also works with apache
21:41:11 <Deewiant> ehird: Don't have something that bloated either :-P
21:41:31 <ehird> Deewiant: do you have ruby?
21:41:34 <ehird> then you have webrick
21:41:37 <Ilari> Deewiant: That URI won't work. Its missing the path part (which by default is relative to '/').
21:41:45 <ehird> % git clone git://tar.us.to/ ccbi2
21:41:46 <ehird> Initialized empty Git repository in /Users/ehird/Downloads/ccbi2/.git/
21:41:47 <ehird> fatal: The remote end hung up unexpectedly
21:41:52 <Deewiant> [13882] '/': unable to chdir or not a git archive
21:42:20 <Deewiant> Meh, can't I tell it to run in this directory
21:42:30 <ehird> Deewiant: just git instaweb -d webrick -p 8181
21:42:31 <Ilari> Deewiant: --base-path
21:42:54 <Deewiant> ehird: Address already in use :-P
21:43:16 <Ilari> Deewiant: 'git daemon --base-path=$PWD --export-all', or something.
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21:44:20 <Ilari> Receiving objects: 100% (889/889), 246.24 KiB | 31 KiB/s, done.
21:44:33 <Deewiant> Bah, was that you and not ehird? :-P
21:44:58 <ehird> % git clone git://tar.us.to/ ccbi2
21:44:58 <ehird> Initialized empty Git repository in /Users/ehird/Downloads/ccbi2/.git/
21:45:23 <Deewiant> Better kill it before there are twelvety forks
21:46:30 <Deewiant> Or hmm, just a borked-up router there
21:49:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, about git, where is the url for ccbi2?
21:49:41 <Deewiant> ehird: So what are you planning
21:49:47 <AnMaster> since you went to the dark side
21:49:47 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm just taking a look.
21:50:07 <ehird> Hooray for the dark side!
21:50:14 <AnMaster> ehird, Deewiant: in other news, google code now offers mercurial too, but not git. (still experimental)
21:50:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: tenish lines up or so
21:50:33 <ehird> AnMaster: They didn't do git because git-over-http is slow and they're too stupid to set up a git:// server ;-)
21:50:40 <ehird> (Alternatively, because their infrastructure is set up for http.)
21:51:03 <AnMaster> anyway I think they did the right choice.
21:51:26 <ehird> Yes, someone who is a rabid git antipath probably would.
21:52:02 <AnMaster> though git *is* getting better slowly. At least it isn't as bad as a few years ago.
21:52:51 <ehird> A few years ago, Linus had made git as a toy weekend project.
21:53:18 <coppro> I have yet to try git.
21:53:37 <ehird> coppro: you really should. Despite the criticisms, it _is_ good, and it's certainly popular.
21:53:42 <AnMaster> ehird, a few years meaning mid-2007 in this case.
21:53:43 <ehird> (AnMaster will now dispute that.)
21:54:15 <coppro> Yeah, I haven't had a lot of trouble with SVN for my purposes though - it's biggest failing is scalability and my stuff is never big enough for that to matter.
21:54:21 <AnMaster> ehird, also why does one even need git gc
21:54:31 <coppro> The next on the list (merging) has hurt me more
21:54:33 <AnMaster> as a end user I shouldn't need to care about that.
21:54:41 <coppro> isn't git gc just like svn cleanup?
21:54:44 <ehird> coppro: "git init" vs "svnadmin create /var/svn/baldflkgdfgjkdfgdfjklgdfkjg"
21:54:48 <ehird> coppro: and git's faster
21:54:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Git is a file system.
21:55:04 <AnMaster> coppro, both hg and bzr have short init commands too
21:55:04 <ehird> "git gc" is sort of like defragmenting; not technically, but same use case.
21:55:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So anyway if you want an in-development copy for perusal it's at git://tar.us.to
21:55:21 <AnMaster> ehird, the tool should do that itself when needed.
21:55:23 <ehird> As in, you run it perioridically to keep things tidy.
21:55:34 <ehird> AnMaster: The filesystem should defrag automatically when needed!
21:55:50 <ehird> git is a filesystem
21:55:51 <coppro> ehird: git init creates the repo where?
21:55:57 <ehird> coppro: current directory
21:56:01 <ehird> mkdir project; cd project; git init
21:56:14 <AnMaster> coppro, same for hg init and bzr init
21:56:20 <coppro> distributed system, right
21:56:21 <ehird> AnMaster: we get it alraedy
21:56:27 <ehird> he's asking about git
21:56:28 <AnMaster> not a special advantage of git
21:56:36 <AnMaster> ehird, you tried to make it sound like only git had that feature.
21:56:44 <ehird> I said it was an advantage of git over svn
21:56:51 <Ilari> Pretty much only scalabilty problems are that big files suck and even with highly efficent history storage, the bandwidth to clone will grow.
21:56:57 <AnMaster> ehird, then you were ambiguous.
21:57:17 <ehird> clearly coppro here understood m
21:58:16 <AnMaster> Ilari, that will happen for any vcs won't it?
21:58:38 <coppro> re speed: I rarely get big enough repos that speed becomes a factor
21:58:47 <coppro> hence my comment about SVN's scalability
21:59:07 <coppro> the only big SVN repo I use is GCC, which is admittedly awful
21:59:08 <AnMaster> well cvs actually seems to handle big files better than svn, haven't seen any project using any vcs other than cvs and svn for multi-MB datafiles.
21:59:26 <coppro> it takes SVN forever just to notice there's no changes
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22:04:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, still haven't fixed the bug with source directory name
22:05:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: $PWD right now is ~/programming/projects/ccbi/ccbi/ccbi
22:05:23 <ehird> I just have ccbi2/
22:05:49 <ehird> you don't have ldmd.
22:06:05 <AnMaster> and I'm following build instructions on your website
22:06:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Put ldmd there as well.
22:06:09 <oerjan> it seems funge-98 is a very reflective language, maybe we should recommend it to the TUNES project?
22:06:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, where do I get ldmd..?
22:06:24 <Deewiant> Just not 'make install'ed for some reason.
22:06:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well then it is odd ldmd isn't there
22:07:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, btw did you ever manage to fix your TERM?
22:08:03 <oerjan> admittedly its curry-howard logic is probably going to be something from the elder gods, so maybe not
22:08:19 <Deewiant> Yay, all Cat's Eye fingerprints done.
22:08:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, tango.core.Exception.ArrayBoundsException@ccbi.d(140): Array index out of bounds
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22:08:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, from the test tests/bounds.b98 bundled with cfunge
22:09:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, concurrent-issues.b98 makes it lock up btw.
22:09:48 <Deewiant> Heh, I wonder where that error is coming from
22:09:48 <AnMaster> io-errors.b98 also lead to "tango.core.Exception.ArrayBoundsException@ccbi.d(140): Array index out of bounds"
22:10:04 <Deewiant> Given that ccbi.d(140) is in the middle of a string constant
22:10:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, iterate-zero.b98 -> lockup
22:10:28 <Deewiant> Gah, I know you have tests! :-P
22:10:43 <Deewiant> This is a development version and I know it is buggy
22:10:46 <AnMaster> you implement PERL but not FILE?
22:10:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: 2009-04-25 00:08:18 ( Deewiant) Yay, all Cat's Eye fingerprints done.
22:11:13 <AnMaster> split-in-iterate.b98 -> lockup
22:11:16 <Deewiant> I'm translating CCBI1 fingerprints to CCBI2 in the order that Mycology tests them.
22:11:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok but fix the core bugs first!
22:11:33 <AnMaster> why implement fingerprints if the core is broken
22:11:50 <Deewiant> I'm not going to release anything until the bugs are fixed anyway
22:11:54 <Deewiant> So what does it matter in what order I do things
22:13:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ./ccbi -t -> segfault
22:13:49 <oerjan> <Deewiant> So first you give them your number and then you send a message from that number so it knows what result to give you
22:14:07 <oerjan> is this that damn thing with the einstein doll? it's in norwegian too
22:14:39 <oerjan> i got really disappointed too when they wanted my phone number
22:15:04 <Deewiant> Hmm, tracer should work but isn't working.
22:15:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I guess you got a different approach to developing than me.
22:15:38 <ehird> Einstein dolL? Wat.
22:15:38 <AnMaster> even early on I went for bug fixes before features.
22:16:05 <Deewiant> It's just that I'm doing this for fun
22:16:06 <oerjan> ehird: well, einstein avatar-like picture
22:16:13 <Deewiant> And I haven't been able to do anything for 8 months
22:16:29 <Deewiant> So I'd rather do something fun than track down array out-of-bounds errors
22:16:30 <ehird> befunge 98: srs bzns
22:16:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes so am I. But debugging is fun usually. And often not that hard.
22:16:40 <ehird> "But debugging is fun usually."
22:16:46 <AnMaster> at least if you know your way around gdb
22:16:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Do tell me if you can find the actual line where that ArrayBoundsException happens.
22:18:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Why is it saying that then... I never had line number being wrong like that in C...
22:18:16 <AnMaster> sometimes they can be off by one or so in flex/bison output.
22:18:42 <ehird> Deewiant: Maybe it counts long string literals as one line.
22:18:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, my gdb doesn't work on D code. What sort of debugger do you use for backtraces.
22:18:57 <oerjan> ehird: maybe AnMaster is a vulcan
22:19:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm? do I need to do clean somehow, and if so how?
22:19:37 <AnMaster> rebuild -rfccbi.rf -gc -full ?
22:19:45 <Deewiant> Yeah, I guess that should work
22:20:18 <AnMaster> oerjan, tyst på dig, röj mig inte!
22:20:54 <AnMaster> it doesn't even do SIGABRT or anything I can catch on
22:21:05 <Deewiant> Which is why tracing never got enabled.
22:21:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, they fixed that first one you had in ccbi2?
22:21:15 <Deewiant> I wonder if I've reported it already.
22:21:21 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I found a workaround.
22:21:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, clear an area, reveal, blow the cover...
22:22:18 <ehird> 22:21 AnMaster: oerjan, clear an area, reveal, blow the cover...
22:22:19 <oerjan> ah, no:røp. except not the first meaning.
22:22:24 <ehird> this is either a quote from Swedish CSI
22:22:28 <ehird> or the worst song ever
22:23:21 <ehird> CSI is a terrible US crime TV show where they have computers that go bleep and have lost of bars and password crackers.
22:23:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh no, do I need to update it. In that case I'm going to skip it for now.
22:23:26 <ehird> Their image editor is superb.
22:23:32 <ehird> It can zoom in on any image to any detail
22:23:34 <ehird> No matter how small
22:23:45 <ehird> They can pick up fully coloured, full resolution images from *reflections in people's eyes*.
22:23:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway tell me how I can break on that bound check failing.
22:23:49 <Deewiant> I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about how argument parsing doesn't work at all
22:23:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't know, I thought you were the gdb expert
22:24:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes I am. For C programs.
22:24:19 <Deewiant> Then it doesn't do bounds checking
22:24:54 <oerjan> ehird: and let me guess, real stupid people now complain when real police doesn't do such things? :D
22:25:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Would you say debugging C code is easier than D code?
22:25:15 <ehird> oerjan: People, in general, think you can do shit like that.
22:25:33 <AnMaster> Deewiant, Less abstractions to dig through.
22:25:46 <Deewiant> Which also means you can't see the forest for the trees.
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22:25:51 <oerjan> ehird: i suppose it would be "good" if criminals thought they could...
22:25:52 <Deewiant> Depends on what kind of bug it is.
22:26:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the abstractions mean you can't see the forest for the trees?
22:26:31 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://rafb.net/p/xp9smF58.html
22:26:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I think it got line numbers backwards.
22:27:30 <oerjan> AnMaster: ah, the first meaning would be no:rydd, probably
22:27:38 <Deewiant> Unless you built with optimizations.
22:27:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway debug info is clearly bonkers here.
22:27:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, rebuild -rfccbi.rf -gc -full -release
22:28:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, my ldc might be a week or two old though.
22:28:19 <AnMaster> not sure when it was we talked about ldc last time
22:29:04 <oerjan> <fizzie> That was passing strange; when waking up from suspend-to-ram, one of my hard drives refused to start. Rebooting made it operational again. Though now it needs to resync the raid thing.
22:29:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So did you find the exact line of the error yet? :-P
22:29:20 <oerjan> i've had that happen to me occasionally after hibernating
22:29:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no the line info is bonkers as I said.
22:29:32 <oerjan> (which is what i do 99% of the time)
22:29:54 <Deewiant> So you're helpless unless your debugger tells you exactly where the problem is?
22:29:55 <oerjan> erm, the laptop that is. although maybe i'm doing it in real life too..
22:30:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no. Since I can at least hope function matches.
22:30:25 <AnMaster> and I assume I have a working compiler.
22:30:31 <AnMaster> That is true most of the case for C
22:31:08 <AnMaster> and if I suspect an issue there I can just try a totally different compiler, like icc or clang
22:31:42 <Deewiant> Did ccbi -t always segfault for you?
22:32:03 <AnMaster> well I haven't tried 2 before today
22:32:25 <Deewiant> As in, not just on a particular file but always.
22:32:29 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I tried 4 times, and yes every time
22:32:35 <Deewiant> I'll chalk that up to old LDC.
22:32:49 <Deewiant> Since it works fine for me now that I worked around http://www.dsource.org/projects/ldc/ticket/267 .
22:32:59 <AnMaster> I haven't searched the entire file name possibility space.
22:33:14 <AnMaster> I think that would be rather hard
22:33:15 <Deewiant> I'd be rather amused if it depended on file name. :-P
22:33:22 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> As in, not just on a particular file but always.
22:33:27 <AnMaster> you seemed to indicate it did?
22:33:41 <AnMaster> well I tried without any file argument too
22:34:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, disassembly output from gdb is unreadable
22:34:08 <AnMaster> Dump of assembler code for function _D4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace5_ctorMFC5tango2io5model8IConduit11InputStreamZC4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace:
22:34:08 <AnMaster> 0x000000000040adb0 <_D4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace5_ctorMFC5tango2io5model8IConduit11InputStreamZC4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace+0>: push %rbx
22:34:08 <AnMaster> 0x000000000040adb1 <_D4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace5_ctorMFC5tango2io5model8IConduit11InputStreamZC4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace+1>: sub $0x30,%rsp
22:34:08 <AnMaster> 0x000000000040adb5 <_D4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace5_ctorMFC5tango2io5model8IConduit11InputStreamZC4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace+5>: mov %rdi,0x28(%rsp)
22:34:13 <AnMaster> 0x000000000040adba <_D4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace5_ctorMFC5tango2io5model8IConduit11InputStreamZC4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace+10>: mov %rsi,0x20(%rsp)
22:34:16 <AnMaster> much much wider than my terminal
22:34:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why this urge for insane function names
22:34:39 <Deewiant> Well don't ask it to disassemble a function, ask it to disassemble a memory area
22:35:02 <Deewiant> ccbi.space.FungeSpace[ccbi.cell.cell] something or whatever
22:35:02 <AnMaster> is there actually any need with no overloads.
22:35:10 <ehird> so you want it to specialcase
22:35:13 <Deewiant> How do you know whether there are overloads
22:35:14 <ehird> thus making it hard on the toolchain
22:35:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um, the compiler can know when it compiles?
22:35:38 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Only the linker can know for sure.
22:35:41 <ehird> Precompiled modules.
22:35:55 <AnMaster> well module name should be part of the function name clearly
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22:36:18 <AnMaster> but ok I can see why mangled names can be useful yes. But why not use the standard scheme
22:36:27 <Deewiant> That is the standard scheme, for D.
22:36:39 <AnMaster> any reason D can't use a compatible scheme?
22:36:48 <ehird> compatible with what
22:37:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway doesn't it crash for you or?
22:38:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if compiler is generating bogus debug info it is too much work for some program I'm not a developer of.,
22:38:26 <ehird> AnMaster: i thought debugging was fun
22:38:27 <Deewiant> I never use debug info for anything. :-P
22:38:59 <AnMaster> ehird, it is, for C. It isn't for C++ though. It seems D is as bad there.
22:39:16 <ehird> because it's not C++?
22:39:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what is the main function of D programs. when I break on main() I end up in "main (argc=2, argv=0x7fff352a2738, env=0x7fff352a2750) at /home/arvid/src/llvm/ldc/runtime/internal/dmain2.d:170"
22:39:31 <Deewiant> Well, anyway, looking <_D4ccbi5space34__T10FungeSpaceVT4ccbi4cell4cell2Z10FungeSpace5_ctor the bug is clearly in the constructor of FungeSpace.
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22:41:18 <AnMaster> argh finish doesn't work for D
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22:41:50 <Deewiant> The line number was correct, the file should have been space.d though.
22:42:01 <AnMaster> ehird, as in gdb's "finish" meaning continue until current function returns"
22:42:04 -!- jix has quit ("ohnoeses").
22:42:14 <ehird> well it hates finns doo
22:42:27 <Deewiant> Sounds like it might break with closures
22:42:48 <AnMaster> #0 gc_malloc (sz=0, ba=0) at /home/arvid/src/llvm/ldc/runtime/../tango/lib/gc/basic/gc.d:146
22:42:48 <AnMaster> #1 0x0000000000a0b650 in _D5tango4text7convert6Layout13__T6LayoutTaZ6Layout7__ClassZ ()
22:42:49 <Deewiant> Since 'current function' is a bit blurred there
22:42:57 <AnMaster> I tried finish and it ended at the sigsegv
22:43:13 <Deewiant> Isn't that exactly what should happen, then? :-P
22:43:16 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:43:32 <AnMaster> #0 gc_malloc (sz=0, ba=0) at /home/arvid/src/llvm/ldc/runtime/../tango/lib/gc/basic/gc.d:146
22:43:32 <AnMaster> #1 0x0000000000a0b650 in _D5tango4text7convert6Layout13__T6LayoutTaZ6Layout7__ClassZ ()
22:43:32 <AnMaster> #2 0x00000000004249f5 in _D5tango4text5Regex14__T7RegExpTTaZ7RegExpT6opCallFAaAaZC5tango4text5Regex14__T7RegExpTTaZ7RegExpT (pattern=
22:43:32 <AnMaster> {length = 26, ptr = 0x79ae00 "^(?--?|/)(?[?]|h(?e?lp)?)$"}, attributes={length = 1, ptr = 0x79ae24 "i"})
22:43:35 <AnMaster> at /home/arvid/src/llvm/ldc/runtime/../tango/tango/text/Regex.d:3672
22:43:37 <AnMaster> #3 0x000000000040347a in _Dmain (args={length = 1, ptr = 0x1087070}) at ccbi.d:298
22:43:39 <Deewiant> AnMaster: foo blarg glrple plotz
22:43:40 <AnMaster> finish there should have put it in _D5tango4text7convert6Layout13__T6LayoutTaZ6Layout7__ClassZ
22:43:55 <Deewiant> "continue until current function returns"
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22:44:09 <Deewiant> Or wait, you did finish from gc_malloc?
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22:44:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, current being the one I'm in now. Which was gc_malloc() at that point.
22:44:20 <AnMaster> so it should have put me there
22:44:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, can't you read a backtrace?
22:44:37 <Deewiant> I didn't realize what you meant by it
22:44:42 <AnMaster> anyway there were more frames below _Dmain
22:44:51 <Deewiant> I thought it was just another meaningless paste
22:45:17 <Deewiant> This is all somewhat uninteresting, you know, since I found the bug already and you're just preventing me from fixing it :-P
22:45:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I'm happy you found it, but this is the first time I ever saw a compiler putting the wrong file name in debug info.
22:46:10 <AnMaster> is there any stable (read: rock solid) D compiler out there.
22:46:35 <AnMaster> you know there is for C right? It is very useful.
22:46:36 <Deewiant> DMD has the most trustworthy backend, LDC frontend.
22:46:47 <ehird> 22:46 AnMaster: is there any stable (read: rock solid) D compiler out there.
22:46:47 <ehird> 22:46 AnMaster: something you can trust.
22:46:53 <ehird> It's fair and balanced.
22:47:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Anyway, the bug was that there's a space at (0,0) and since you told me to optimize away spaces from the hash table it caused a null deref / equivalent
22:47:48 <ehird> I'd write a D compiler, only the language sucks.
22:48:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So it's all your fault, actually. ;-P
22:48:44 <ehird> Deewiant: Haskell. C. (Plof.)
22:49:05 <ehird> Deewiant: C, Haskell.
22:49:25 <Deewiant> Haskell I'm not sure about, I hoped you wouldn't mention it. :-P
22:50:12 <ehird> I might write the most amazing D compiler ever, but write it entirely in D. GDC-specific D.
22:50:37 <Deewiant> As long as it's free, people will gladly port it to non-GDC-specific D. :-P
22:51:02 <ehird> If D people did anything other than be lazy, I would have an environment set up.
22:51:41 <Deewiant> Which I think explains most of your problems. :-P
22:51:42 <ehird> Most D people can't write portable code?
22:51:49 <ehird> Am I meant to be surprised?
22:51:54 <Deewiant> Not when they're talking directly to the kernel.
22:52:36 <ehird> 'Cuz libc doesn't require porting to 5 billion OSes?
22:52:41 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> AnMaster: So it's all your fault, actually. ;-P <-- um, I told you also to properly check for NULL :P
22:52:50 <ehird> So are operating systems.
22:53:01 <ehird> But we don't fucking make every language implementation have a bootloader.
22:53:02 <AnMaster> at least libc isn't *bloated* crap
22:53:12 <AnMaster> compared to most other runtimes
22:53:23 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well I was thinking of libstdc++ mostly
22:53:31 <AnMaster> I don't know enough about tango to be sure
22:53:32 <ehird> I might write a toy Haskell. That would be fun.
22:54:11 <Deewiant> C++ is bloated mostly due to the locale stuff, I think
22:54:17 <Deewiant> Other than that I don't consider it very bloated
22:54:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about other parts of C++? Do you like them?
22:55:00 <AnMaster> such as templates, the casts, it's overloading, references vs. pointers.
23:04:13 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: is there any D compiler written in D? i remember old LDC repo contains LLVM binding in D, but...
23:04:27 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: No complete one, no.
23:04:35 <Deewiant> I don't think anybody's writing a backend in D.
23:06:03 <ehird> frontend is non-code-generation right
23:07:15 <ehird> Deewiant: backend sounds easier, if you target sth like llvm
23:08:15 <ehird> so i'd expect more backends
23:08:49 <Deewiant> There's Walter's, an LLVM one, and a GCC one. How many do you want? :-P
23:11:47 <ehird> D's quite similar to C, right? For most code.
23:11:50 <ehird> Plus object dispatch.
23:12:49 <ehird> Deewiant: A D→C compiler could allow gcc's C support to work its magic...
23:13:52 <Deewiant> Compiling to C++ would be easier
23:14:03 <ehird> C++'s object model is different
23:14:56 <ehird> Deewiant: setjmp / longjmp
23:15:14 <Deewiant> ehird: Doesn't interact with other D.
23:15:47 <Deewiant> Throwing to or catching from D compiled by a different compiler
23:16:23 <ehird> Deewiant: The compilers interoperate?
23:17:07 <Deewiant> They do to some extent, but in practice not really.
23:17:22 <Deewiant> GDC doesn't implement the ABI at all, I don't think.
23:17:30 <Deewiant> DMD/LDC might fare reasonably well.
23:24:31 <ehird> "The first version of LDC, the LLVM based compiler for version one of the D programming language has been released for x86-32 Linux. Get it here! "
23:24:35 -!- coppro has joined.
23:25:02 <ehird> Their "release" is just a binary for one architechture/platform
23:34:25 <AnMaster> <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: is there any D compiler written in D? i remember old LDC repo contains LLVM binding in D, but... <-- that would be stupid. Since there is no good compiler for D yet ;P
23:35:10 <lifthrasiir> at least garbage collection is helpful for developing such one.
23:35:17 <fungot> I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I me ...too much output!
23:35:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, likely you would end up fixing whatever compiler you used for boot strapping so it worked better.
23:36:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, only for those who made that compiler!
23:36:29 <oerjan> ^ul ((I mean ")S:^):^(:^(", so there!)S):^
23:36:30 <fungot> I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I mean "I me ...too much output!
23:36:36 <AnMaster> except those trying to write the new compiler in D.
23:36:53 <Deewiant> No, also for them, since they get a better compiler which is what they wanted all along.
23:37:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, didn't they just want to make a better compiler than anyone else.
23:37:22 <AnMaster> which they would have failed at.
23:37:23 <oerjan> you could imagine an evaluation for underload where both those parts printed something...
23:37:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Selfish bastards get what they deserved :-P
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23:38:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway I prefer a language where compiler bugs are so rare that I only ever ran into one and that time the compiler said "Internal compiler error\nSegmentation fault"
23:38:26 <oerjan> with enough laziness at both ends
23:38:34 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Just fixed the bug of concurrent-issues; x-coordinate of minimum point of funge-space was MAX_INT, so the p set it to 9, so the v at (0,15) never worked.
23:38:47 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: you mean gcc or g++, for example?
23:38:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I've run into more than one GCC bug.
23:39:01 <ehird> gcc is shit when you try any edge cases
23:39:03 <ehird> that thing is NOT stable
23:39:08 <ehird> it's also really slow
23:39:15 <AnMaster> ehird, better than icc at least.
23:39:58 <AnMaster> anyway the gcc bug I had was in -fverbose-show-what-you-are-doing=10 or something like that
23:40:22 <AnMaster> where it ended up trying to dereference a NULL pointer in the verbose output
23:40:30 <AnMaster> not even a code generation bug.
23:41:03 <AnMaster> g++ I have seen break a few time
23:41:14 <ehird> Deewiant: Tango hello world plz?
23:41:18 <ehird> THink I got a working d environment
23:41:34 <Deewiant> ehird: import tango.io.Stdout; void main() { Stdout("Hello world").newline; }
23:42:04 <ehird> AnMaster: no it's not.
23:42:07 <ehird> how is that fucked up
23:42:13 <ehird> or do you mean unfamiliar
23:42:41 <AnMaster> ehird, well what does that . do
23:42:49 <ehird> Objects. Heard of them?
23:43:11 <ehird> Stdout is a- yeah.
23:43:47 <AnMaster> does it make an instance of Stdout that prints hello world and then calls the newline function of it....
23:44:02 <ehird> GregorR: http://pastie.org/457615.txt?key=dyf5vrrylmoquuwrxv6e5g ← plz to be sensemaking; but with s/GregorR/Deewiant/
23:44:06 <AnMaster> ok so what does the () do on it
23:44:18 <ehird> AnMaster: runs the magic call method, like c++'s operator () or Python's __call__
23:44:24 <ehird> the call then outputs ,and returns Stdout
23:44:30 <ehird> then the newline method is called
23:44:33 <ehird> which prints \n then returns Stdout
23:44:35 <ehird> thus allowing for chaining
23:44:36 <AnMaster> ehird, ok.... that seems rather odd way to write it.
23:44:40 <ehird> Deewiant: tried to compile hello world.
23:44:42 <AnMaster> as in "makes not a lot of sense"
23:44:51 <Deewiant> ehird: Of course. What'd you do to do that.
23:44:51 <ehird> Deewiant: should I use rebuild?
23:44:56 <ehird> and "ldc hello.d -of=hello"
23:44:58 <ehird> but I just have rebuild
23:45:07 <Deewiant> Then that won't work, of course. :-P
23:45:39 <Deewiant> ehird: You need to compile in Tango /somehow/. Either with the user lib or something like rebuild.
23:45:44 <Deewiant> Or do what rebuild does manually.
23:45:51 <ehird> % rebuild hello.d -ofhello
23:45:51 <ehird> hello.d(1): module Stdout cannot read file 'tango/io/Stdout.d'
23:45:55 <ehird> That's rather more exciting.
23:46:01 <AnMaster> ehird, then I guess the file isn't there.
23:46:21 <AnMaster> ~/funges/interpreters/ccbi2/ccbi $ git pull
23:46:22 <AnMaster> tar.us.to[0: 88.114.230.37]: errno=Connection refused
23:46:22 <AnMaster> fatal: unable to connect a socket (Connection refused)
23:46:22 <AnMaster> You have new mail in /var/mail/arvid
23:46:43 <AnMaster> since you said you fixed that bug
23:47:06 <AnMaster> and I'm pretty sure you can host git without special server side support, even if it is slower.
23:48:26 <ehird> Yay, almost fixed.
23:56:26 <AnMaster> tar.us.to[0: 88.114.230.37]: errno=Connection refused
23:56:26 <AnMaster> fatal: unable to connect a socket (Connection refused)
23:56:39 <Deewiant> Yes, I am not blind to what happened 3 lines earlier
23:56:53 <Deewiant> And if you had understood my message, you would have realized that you don't want a tree I'm about to rebase
23:57:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I see. I haven't ever used rebase.
23:58:09 <AnMaster> since I prefer not to change the history ;P
23:58:23 <Deewiant> Yes, but I fucked up and I'm trying to fix it