00:01:07 <nooga> ppl bear irrational fear
00:02:04 <Sgeo> Hey, I can do regexes! I've done them before! *ducks*
00:03:13 <nooga> it's one big regexp
00:08:18 -!- Dewio has joined.
00:08:45 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
00:09:12 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal").
00:10:23 <ehird> what's that got t o do with php
00:10:25 <ehird> nobody mentioned php
00:10:55 <psygnisfive> and ive been coding in php lately, including some regex stuff.
00:11:16 <psygnisfive> so both regex and php are fresh in my mind, especially in conjunction.
00:11:37 <Sgeo> PSOX uses regexes
00:12:21 <ehird> PSOX uses god dammit sgeo i will be violent in regards to you
00:15:29 <Sgeo> How did I know you'd react like that?
00:19:51 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:21:59 <Sgeo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX
00:28:23 <ehird> "Take a conventional ice cream and replace all of its constituents with savoury equivalents. For the cone we will substitute pastry or perhaps batter, as found in a Yorkshire pudding. At the bottom of the cone is a dollop of beef and gravy, followed by scoops of nice mashed potato, possibly with leek or horseradish or something equally interesting stirred in. We add tomato sauce instead of strawberry, and the flake is replaced with a sausage. "
00:28:25 <ehird> http://qntm.org/?savoury
00:36:12 <Sgeo> * Jello_Raptor has changed the topic to: #xkcd challenge: name two rules which in addition to bucket's "-ass " to " ass-" would make buckat a universal turing maching (assume linked input and output)
00:36:25 <ehird> "Microsoft created a loyal customer in me. I like their products, and I'm not ashamed to say it. They are just another company making software, and they happen to have the biggest market share. Why? Not because they're evil and sacrifice cats - it's because their operating system is the easiest and best to use, as evidenced by the entire fucking world"
00:37:06 <Sgeo> Popular OS means stuff released on it. More stuff released for it means people need it to use the stuff release, which makes it more popular, etc.
00:38:47 <ehird> "Amen brother. I enjoy having an OS I can use that doesn't treat me like an idiot, AND gives me the opportunity to muck around in the guts of without knowing how to program my own damned drivers. I actually own a legal copy of Windows XP. Wooo."
00:38:52 -!- coppro has joined.
00:38:55 <ehird> Good god, it's a cesspool of stupidity.
00:39:00 <ehird> Netcraft confirms it: reddit is dead.
00:39:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:41:53 -!- Judofyr has joined.
00:45:30 <ehird> Deewiant: http://managedflash.com/index.htm ← this looks like bullshit but what is it?
00:48:26 <ehird> "The Intel drive is already doing what the MFT is doing."
00:51:52 <ehird> Deewiant: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/8fedm/ocz_pcie_20_x4_ssd250gb_500gb_1_tb_1300_2500_3300/c093sk4 ← the $3k price is right
01:09:56 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:10:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
01:16:53 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:21:48 -!- iano has quit.
01:33:44 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
01:38:24 -!- Slereah_ has joined.
01:51:16 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:53:53 <psygnisfive> or were. surgery fixed your problem right up!
01:55:48 <kerlo> I'm not sure that makes sense.
02:28:31 * kerlo tackles and pins Slereah_
02:30:20 <Slereah_> Oh yes, I am helpless and at your mercy, you strapping young man.
02:32:14 * kerlo looks up "strapping" on Wiktionary
02:32:34 <kerlo> It sounds like high praise, likely because it was juxtaposed with "young".
02:33:20 <kerlo> And hey, it's just what it sounds like.
02:45:03 <kerlo> Huh, the top level of NATO classification is called COSMIC TOP SECRET.
02:55:32 <kerlo> Unless someone has vandalized Wikipedia recently, yes.
02:57:15 <coppro> google seems to confirm that is the case
02:57:28 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
03:02:11 -!- coppro has joined.
04:47:33 <GregorR> Isn't the /whois on FreeNode supposed to specify if you're identified?
04:47:59 <GregorR> Seems to say n= for everyone, registered or not ...
05:08:01 <kerlo> It's supposed to specify whether an IDENT server responded when you connected.
05:33:38 -!- amca has joined.
05:34:16 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
05:34:49 -!- amca has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
05:47:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
06:09:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined.
06:22:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
06:43:15 <Sgeo> I learned just enough haskell to make a bad pun
06:44:47 <oerjan> that was supposed to be an encouragement, btw
06:45:22 <oerjan> <GregorR> Isn't the /whois on FreeNode supposed to specify if you're identified?
06:45:26 <Sgeo> What did Goldilocks say upon seeing "Maybe (b -> Either a b)"?
06:45:52 <Sgeo> It's Just Right!
06:45:59 <oerjan> that's the "is identified to services" part
06:47:30 <GregorR> oerjan: There is an "is identified to services" part? kerlo responded saying that was whether an ident server responded, which makes sense.
06:47:52 <oerjan> um no he talked about n= vs. i=
06:48:13 <GregorR> Right, that's what I thought was supposed to be whether you're identified :)
06:48:19 <GregorR> But there is an "is identified" part?
06:48:32 <oerjan> it's a separate line of the information
06:48:45 * GregorR 's incompetence is UNMATCHED
06:49:47 <GregorR> ........... /me punvomits.
07:20:43 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
07:25:49 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("YES -> thor-ainor.it <- THIS IS *DELICIOUS*!").
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:24:53 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
08:26:00 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
08:29:39 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
08:31:07 -!- oerjan has joined.
08:51:58 -!- Slereah has joined.
09:02:03 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
09:02:24 -!- M0ny has joined.
09:33:02 -!- tombom has joined.
09:38:44 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
09:40:26 <AnMaster> GregorR, i= vs n= is for "got identd reply or not"
10:13:00 -!- Judofyr has joined.
10:26:31 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
10:29:12 -!- FireFly has joined.
10:32:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant: "Please input a character: UNDEF: got 9731 '☃' which is hopefully correct." :D
10:36:05 <AnMaster> * [Deewiant] is away (Z z z) <-- It must be past noon there......
10:47:56 <psygnisfive> do you have a problem with people sleeping past noon?
10:48:12 <AnMaster> no, not really. Just didn't expect Deewiant to be that type.
10:49:04 <Deewiant> Meh, I could easily wake up if I set an alarm, I always wake up a few minutes before the alarm (unless I'm /really/ tired)
10:49:17 <Deewiant> I just don't bother so then I sleep for 10-12 hours :-P
11:18:59 -!- nooga has joined.
11:19:09 <nooga> ahh, another Mac hating morning
11:30:38 -!- ais523 has joined.
11:39:46 <AnMaster> Please input a character: UNDEF: got 9731 '☃' which is hopefully correct.
11:54:51 -!- Hiato has joined.
11:59:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, do you plan to add mycoedge any time soon?
11:59:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if so, tell me in time so I can release the next cfunge version before then. Otherwise I have other more important things to do instead.
12:01:17 <nooga> i listen to swedish radio
12:01:43 <nooga> Radio Bastad, with ring upon a
12:02:12 <nooga> http://www.radiobastad.se/webspelare/Webradiospelare%2080%20kbps.html
12:04:23 <AnMaster> http://www.sr.se/cgi-bin/kanaler/ , the links in the first column opens the web radio.
12:04:41 <AnMaster> not a lot of interesting on right now, except possibly in P1.
12:07:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, http://users.tkk.fi/~mniemenm/befunge/mycology-output/quit/expected.txt seems to contain some garbage.
12:07:53 <AnMaster> somehow two files got mixed up there
12:11:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also what about the question I had about mycoedge
12:11:56 <Deewiant> "If so, tell you" -> no, so I won't. :-P
12:12:10 <AnMaster> ais523, Deewiant: Should I add some point add SNMP support to efunge. Only reason I ever got this idea is that it would be quite simple to do it, since erlang has most of the stuff needed for it available already.
12:13:29 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Network_Management_Protocol
12:14:45 <ais523> I have trouble working out what that has to do with Befunge
12:15:07 <AnMaster> ais523, same, just it would be kind of trivial in efunge.
12:16:14 <AnMaster> in other news I found a way around the issue I had in efunge for ATHR implementation, so efunge development is starting to speed up again.
12:20:40 <fizzie> [Not that the question was addressed to me, but...] There are SNMP libraries for quite many languages; why not in Funge-98 too; that said, I have grave doubts that not many systems administrators will implement their snmp-based utilities with Funge-98.
12:21:13 <AnMaster> also SNMP fits nicely as a fingerprint name.
12:22:42 <fizzie> Though you can implement SNMP on top of SOCK with Funge-98 code; so optionally it could be a library instead of... uh, a language feature, almost. Too bad Funge libraries aren't very practical, I guess.
12:22:51 <fizzie> s/optionally/optimally/
12:44:05 <ais523> wow, gcc reads my mind
12:44:33 <ais523> just a few days ago I was wondering about a possible optimisation from switches that just assign to variables into lookup tables, as opposed to needing a jump table
12:44:48 <ais523> now I look at the gcc 4.4 release notes and they've added -ftree-switch-conversion which does exactly that
12:45:30 <AnMaster> ais523, you have code that needs it
12:45:30 <Deewiant> I was surprised that that was new
12:45:49 <ais523> AnMaster: I've seen code that could benefit from it
12:45:56 <ais523> although it was just a curiosity thing, no code actually /needs/ it
12:46:05 <ais523> unless going for crazy speed
12:46:40 * AnMaster implemented exact bounds checking with about 5 lines of erlang code. Well add four to that if you include the caching bit (to avoid recalculating on every y).
12:47:46 <ais523> and ooh, they've improved the register allocator
12:48:11 <ais523> that would let me write gcc-bf in more 'pure gcc' than the current version, although the current version's gcc side works so I'll stick to it
12:50:25 <ais523> they've added support for various C++0x stuff too, like the type inference thing
13:06:33 <AnMaster> ets:select(Fungespace, [{{'$1','$2'},[{'=/=','$2',$\s}],['$1']}])
13:08:04 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
13:49:31 -!- oklokol has joined.
13:49:43 <oklokol> ais523: what do you mean by that switch optimization?
13:50:04 -!- oklokol has changed nick to oklofok.
13:50:40 <ais523> say you have int y(int x) {int r; switch(x) {case 1: r=2; break; case 2: r=42; break; case 3:r=10323; break;} return r;}
13:50:54 <AnMaster> thinking about parallel computing is hard.
13:51:26 <ais523> ignoring issues of bounds checking, etc, that could be optimised into static const int __y_lookup[4] = {0,2,42,10323}; int y(int x) {int r=__y_lookup[x]; return r;}
13:51:34 * AnMaster is trying to work out bounds updating in the ATHR efunge variant.
13:52:03 <ais523> in fact, that would be a legit implementation as r isn't initialised with a passed-in value other than 1, 2, or 3; that's undefined behaviour, so you can translate it into the alternative undefined behaviour of accessing uninitialised memor
13:52:05 <oklofok> because ehird isn't active atm, i should probably inform you if it's hard you probably have the wrong abstractions and you suck
13:52:24 <ais523> actually, [3] and looking it up as (__y_lookup-1)[x] would probably be the most efficient
13:52:34 <ais523> as the linker will optimise the subtraction from a memory address into a constant address
13:53:41 <AnMaster> ais523, if the compiler ended up with int y(int x) {int r=__y_lookup[x]; return r;} as the final code I would be rather disappointed.
13:53:56 <AnMaster> y(int x) { return __y_lookup[x]; }
13:54:13 <ais523> I'm referring to that particular optimisation, rather than to other optimisations
13:54:20 <oklofok> err, what's the difference, r would be a register anyway
13:54:26 <ais523> in fact, gcc doesn't need an explicit optimisation there, the two would compile into the same code
13:54:37 <ais523> as it would allocate r to the register which happened to hold the return value of the function
13:54:46 <oklofok> okay i'm thinking load-store here, i guess on lesser architectures AnMaster's is faster
13:54:51 <AnMaster> oklofok, depends on calling convention though.
13:55:35 <oklofok> in what kind of a convention would yours be better?
13:55:36 <AnMaster> lets say you have "return on stack" for calling convention.
13:55:49 <AnMaster> and the system has a "mov" to move between two memory locations directly
13:56:05 <AnMaster> which is faster than moving first to register and then to the stack.
13:56:19 <oklofok> yes, that's what i was referring to by lesser architectures
13:56:21 <AnMaster> rather contrived example though.
13:56:56 <AnMaster> actually on x86 it wouldn't matter
13:57:04 <AnMaster> integers are returned in eax iirc
13:58:01 <AnMaster> structs and other large things are as usual returned on the stack. All architectures have some upper size limit on parameters/return data before it ends up using the stack.
13:58:10 <oklofok> err right i didn't know that was actually x86's calling convention
13:58:18 <oklofok> in that case yours is the same as ais523's
13:58:40 <oklofok> AnMaster: where are doubles returned? stack
13:58:47 <AnMaster> oklofok, depends on if compiler is smart enough to not do "mov memory,register, move register,otherregister"
13:58:57 <AnMaster> I have seen gcc do stuff like that at -O0
13:59:18 <AnMaster> oklofok, either stack of x87 registers. Don't remember.
14:00:14 <AnMaster> oklofok, that is the floating point bit, even though it isn't a co-processor since ages.
14:00:15 <ais523> -O0 is very literal minded
14:00:46 <AnMaster> ais523, that still doesn't justify two mov $0,%eax directly after each other IMO.
14:00:51 <AnMaster> something I have also seen at -O0
14:01:11 <AnMaster> and no I didn't assign the same variable twice. In fact the function didn't use eax in any other place.
14:01:27 <ais523> well, my guess is it isn't remembering the value of eax from one command to another at O0
14:01:36 <ais523> and the built-in pattern-match sets it to 0 there
14:01:50 <oklofok> makes sense it would have such a mode
14:01:54 <AnMaster> ais523, but why would it store two integers in the same register.
14:02:28 <oklofok> AnMaster: would probably need to know context to be able to explain
14:04:11 <AnMaster> oklofok, back with 386, the 387 was the separate floating point processor you could buy as an add-on. The name x87 stuck for the floating point bit even when it was integrated into the main processor in 486 and later (for brevity I'm ignoring 486SX here).
14:04:56 <oklofok> AnMaster: right i may have heard about that
14:05:20 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway it wasn't like that. I think the function was more like: double add(double a, double b) { return a + b; } (used in some threaded code, where threaded means in the Forth meaning of it)
14:05:52 <ais523> does having a particular value in eax affect the way floating-point addition works, I wonder?
14:05:59 <ais523> based on my experiences on x86, I wouldn't be surprised...
14:06:59 <AnMaster> there is the floating point control register though.
14:07:20 <AnMaster> at least that is what gdb calls it.
14:07:50 <AnMaster> mxcsr is the control register for the xmm registers (SSE)
14:11:38 -!- Judofyr has joined.
14:11:44 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:11:58 -!- Judofyr has joined.
14:22:06 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
14:40:05 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
14:41:34 * AnMaster tries working out details for a custom supervisor for the threads
15:01:11 -!- oerjan has joined.
15:03:47 <AnMaster> hm distributed funge space....
15:04:36 <oerjan> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairy_ring
15:04:48 <AnMaster> actually this won't be possible for that... would need to mirror funge space to each note
15:05:10 <AnMaster> what I'm working on is simply concurrent non-distributed funge-space
15:05:38 <oerjan> i thought you'd want a fungy name...
15:07:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, just trying to work out semantics for it.
15:08:37 <AnMaster> easiest way is probably one master funge-space server + mirrors. Mirrors send updates back to the master. (So they may be slightly out of sync in all directions, but not much.)
15:08:50 <AnMaster> another way would be meshed funge-space with no defined master.
15:09:04 <AnMaster> fs2fs (fungespace-to-fungespace)
15:09:37 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:10:24 <AnMaster> ais523,how would you design distributed funge-space. Slightly out of sync allowed.
15:10:41 <AnMaster> Master funge-space server + mirrors. Or f2f?
15:10:55 <ais523> probably by using Bethunge spreading, and putting one CPU doing each thread
15:11:11 <AnMaster> ais523, no, I meant distributed as in a cluster
15:11:29 <ais523> ah, you want this to transparently work on existing programs?
15:11:45 <AnMaster> ais523, well no, it wouldn't, since they would not be lock-step threaded.
15:11:46 <ais523> it seems to me that you aren't going to get much (or any) gain unless the program was designed with distribution in mind
15:12:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm thinking for ATHR. My current design allow SMP but not distributed nodes.
15:13:28 <AnMaster> one way would be to go full blown mnesia db (quite a bit of overhead for updates, since it always uses transactions, and restart failed transactions).
15:13:39 <AnMaster> that would handle the distribution bit for me.
15:14:09 <AnMaster> anyway I'm not going to do it right now. Atm I'm trying to get bounds to work correctly on a *single* node.
15:17:37 <AnMaster> btw, exact bounds is undefined after ATHR has been loaded.
15:21:02 <ais523> you're allowed to do that, because it's a fingerprint
15:22:06 <AnMaster> ais523, yes a very feral one indeed.
15:22:54 <ais523> evil plan: make a fingerprint FAST that has no semantics, but instead allows an interp to do slightly non-conforming things to be faster
15:24:11 <AnMaster> ais523, interesting idea. But there is a runtime overhead of checking if the fingerprint has been loaded. Unacceptable.
15:24:31 <ais523> AnMaster: why not just make the fingerprint replace the executable in memory?
15:24:49 <AnMaster> ok that works I guess. But then there is the overhead of doing that ;P
15:25:08 <ais523> store cfunge always on a RAM drive, and execute it straight from the drive?
15:25:25 <AnMaster> anyway ATHR is in efunge only, not in cfunge
15:25:30 * ais523 wonders if that's actually possible
15:25:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I think linux supports executing directly from some devices yes
15:26:18 <AnMaster> flash mostly. Not with PC interface to flash, rather for more low level interface.
15:26:40 <AnMaster> on PCs flash devices use the ATA interface, which doesn't support it.
15:27:00 <Deewiant> I don't think there are enough expensive operations for FAST to be of any benefit
15:27:14 <ais523> y is one of them, it could restrict itself to only the more useful information
15:27:19 <ais523> or change the semantics to be faster to retrieve
15:27:26 <ais523> bounds checking, for instance
15:28:00 <ais523> likewise, you could turn off checking for reflections on invalid input to commands
15:28:04 <AnMaster> for cfunge exact bounds is a compile time option.
15:28:06 <ais523> just assume all input is valid and crash when it isn't
15:28:24 <AnMaster> ais523, actually efunge could benefit a bit from that
15:28:44 <AnMaster> since I have to catch exceptions in ,
15:29:02 <ais523> haha: http://www.icfpcontest.org/
15:29:05 <AnMaster> overhead doesn't seem to be very large though
15:29:56 <ais523> does fff**, reflect in cfunge? does it in efunge? /should/ it?
15:30:07 <ais523> well, it shouldn't in efunge because that's a valid codepoint IIRC
15:30:18 <ais523> but it isn't for cfunge, which uses 8-bit chars again IIRC
15:30:32 <ais523> because it's incapable of outputting that character
15:30:56 <ais523> in the case of ffffff*****, I would imagine that both should reflect
15:30:57 <AnMaster> ais523, no it isn't. int putchar(int c);
15:31:12 <AnMaster> what putchar does is up to it.
15:31:14 <ais523> AnMaster: but you're only supposed to pass things in the char range or EOF as arguments to it
15:31:31 <ais523> oh... "fputc() writes the character c, cast to an unsigned char, to stream."
15:31:51 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I only reflect on EOF on stdout.
15:32:10 <ais523> by the way, mightn't putc(c,stdout); be faster?
15:32:17 <ais523> because it's equivalent, and might be implemented via a macro?
15:32:30 <ais523> also, what about using unlocked I/O?
15:32:34 <AnMaster> funge_cell a = stack_pop(ip->stack);
15:32:35 <AnMaster> if (FUNGE_UNLIKELY(cf_putchar_maybe_locked((int)a) != (unsigned char)a))
15:33:02 <ais523> you thought of that already, the putchar was just lying to me
15:33:09 <ais523> is cf_putchar_maybe_locked a macro, by any chance?
15:33:15 <AnMaster> ais523, cf_putchar_maybe_locked is a macro, it may be unlocked, depending on if OS supports it, and on if Boehm-gc is used
15:33:28 <AnMaster> unlocked stdio messes up with bohem for some reason
15:33:35 <ais523> also, why does cfunge need a garbage colelector?
15:33:45 <AnMaster> ais523, it doesn't, it is an option
15:33:57 <ais523> why does the option exist, if it doesn't need a GC?
15:34:44 <AnMaster> ais523, because once it did and removing it wouldn't save anything. All the code handling it is in a single header.
15:34:57 <AnMaster> I mean it is no extra work to just keep the option.
15:35:11 <ais523> but it's an option nobody would want to use
15:35:20 <AnMaster> ais523, I test it every now and then.
15:36:25 <AnMaster> ais523, there are other "hidden" options, some meant only for developers (read: me)
15:36:50 <ais523> C-INTERCAL has some options which are probably only useful for developers, but are documented anyway
15:36:52 <AnMaster> -DFUZZ_TESTING in CFLAGS is one such.
15:37:35 <AnMaster> makes cfunge non-conforming by: 1) always making q exit with 0 2) calls alarm() at the start to limit runtime for each fuzz test.
15:38:00 <AnMaster> at one point it also made cfunge output which random seed was used at startup.
15:54:31 <ehird> 09:49 Deewiant: Meh, I could easily wake up if I set an alarm, I always wake up a few minutes before the alarm (unless I'm /really/ tired)
15:54:36 <ehird> i set an alarm and then fight it for hours
15:55:08 <oerjan> the question is, do you fight it before or after it sets off? :D
15:55:30 <ehird> well my alarm is my iphone
15:55:33 <ehird> turning it off is difficult
15:55:40 <ais523> I generally wake up just before the alarm too, but only if I've set it
15:55:43 <ehird> you need to slide a little knob on the touchscreen from one side to another
15:55:45 <ais523> normally I rely on my parents to wake me
15:55:54 <ehird> and if you do that from bed you just slip or whatever
15:56:08 <ehird> so i generally bash the lock button, which shuts up the alarm for ~9 minutes
15:56:27 <ehird> possibly I should disable the lock button
15:57:21 <oerjan> when i use an alarm i make sure to put it out of reach from bed
15:57:31 <ehird> the ether convinced me to use perl again
15:57:44 <ehird> 'cuz, y'know, I'm insane.
15:58:19 <oerjan> i suggest you stop sniffing ether, then
15:58:45 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
16:02:14 <AnMaster> how does anyone manage to wake up just before the alarm goes off
16:02:27 <ehird> body clock and all that shit
16:02:31 <ehird> you can't do it first tim
16:02:35 <ehird> just after you get used to the alarm
16:02:38 * ais523 has been going around search engines and internet directory sites looking up INTERCAL
16:02:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I generally have irregular wake up times.
16:02:50 <ais523> surprisingly, Cuil's results are slightly better than Google's in that respect
16:03:32 <ais523> they got loads of funding
16:03:43 <ais523> enough to keep them going for years even if they get no hits
16:04:06 <ehird> http://www.cuil.com/info/blog/
16:04:10 <ehird> Tweaking the image algorithm J.D. Chen, software engineer
16:04:12 <ehird> When you see the right image, you know it instantly. And if it’s not quite right, you know it right away, too. We’ve gotten lots of feedback on our image work since launch and we really appreciate the input and ideas. We’ve looked, listened and learned, and have made some changes. Today we are rolling out some more changes to our image algorithm that address some of these issues. We hope to find more photos and less title bars, for example. And we
16:04:17 <ehird> have to be able to find more good images from the results themselves.
16:04:19 <ehird> they're posting to their fucking blog.
16:04:30 <ais523> oh, the images were nearly all irrelevant on Cuil's results
16:04:44 <ais523> Search Wikia's aren't too bad, although it has more irrelevant ones than the others it has more relevant ones too
16:04:48 <ehird> the comments are all positive
16:04:51 <ais523> it was the only one to notice CLCLC-INTERCAL
16:04:56 <ehird> this is bizarro world
16:04:59 <ehird> where cuil is better than google
16:05:03 <ais523> ehird: it's because Cuil failed massively on its opening day, because the servers crashed
16:05:22 <ais523> it isn't actually as bad as everyone thought it was based on that, although that of course doesn't mean it's better than Google
16:05:22 <ehird> I am a citizen of the internet :P
16:05:32 <ehird> also, cuil really is bad
16:06:03 <ais523> woah, the Search Wikia results just keep coming
16:06:13 <ais523> the bottom of the page is dynamically generated I think
16:06:20 <ais523> as in, if you keep scrolling down, you keep getting more results
16:06:24 <ehird> ais523: ah, that technique
16:06:34 <ais523> I was wondering why there were so many
16:06:57 <ais523> and it's still finding several relevant ones
16:07:05 <ais523> it just found https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/clc-intercal
16:07:06 <ehird> ais523: i thought you used noscript?
16:07:10 <ehird> oh, wikia requires js, right?
16:07:18 <ais523> immediately after the Malbolge homepage
16:07:24 <ehird> that's pretty good.
16:07:25 <ais523> and yes, using noscript != disabling JS everywhere
16:07:31 <ais523> yes, but there are lots of other irrelevants too
16:07:41 <ais523> it's about 20% relevant scrolled down that far
16:07:49 <ais523> as in, about 1 in 5 results look like what I'm looking for
16:07:56 <ais523> that's still enough that it's useful, though
16:08:05 <ehird> google is useless after about page 4
16:08:17 <ehird> unless your term only really means one thing and it's popular
16:08:28 <ais523> yep, search wikia just goes on finding lots of useful results, in addition to the useless ones
16:08:32 <ais523> some of which I've never seen before
16:08:59 * ehird scares ais523 with his perl
16:09:08 <ehird> possibly the only language where clean, idiomatic code is scary!
16:09:47 <ais523> for instance, http://blogs.technet.com/homeserver/archive/2007/05/25/celebrating-35-years-of-intercal.aspx is a useful tidbit of information
16:10:12 <ais523> I'd heard (from someone claiming to be Richard Lyon, Jim's brother) that Jim Lyon worked for Microsoft
16:10:17 <ais523> but that, on a Microsoft blog, confirms it
16:10:23 <ehird> Well first, Windows Home Server is written primarily in INTERCAL.*
16:10:23 <ehird> *This is actually not true. But it would be funny if it were.
16:10:31 <ehird> IF YOU EXPLAIN A JOKE LIKE THAT IT'S NOT FUNNY >_<
16:10:41 <ehird> you just make the assumption that your readers are idiots!
16:10:44 <ais523> it's a Microsoft blog, though
16:10:53 <ais523> so their lawyers / marketers probably insisted on it
16:11:15 <ehird> I wonder if jim lyon working at MS is an elaborate prank of his
16:12:23 <ais523> <http://www.sharpened.net/helpcenter/file_extension.php?i> File Format: Proprietary file format used by INTERCAL software.
16:12:44 <ais523> it's all well and good for a file extension site to decide that .i usually refers to INTERCAL, rather than preprocessed C
16:12:52 <ais523> is that just because you can't read it?
16:13:06 <ehird> they see it's just used by INTERCAL, oh, it's probably proprietary
16:13:14 <ehird> "Contains source code written in INTERCAL, a programming language designed to be different than all other major program languages; uses commands such as "DO," "NEXT," "PLEASE," and "FORGET." "
16:13:19 <ehird> DO and NEXT aren't very obscure...
16:13:22 <ais523> the file usage is also wrong
16:13:41 <ais523> the INTERCAL versions of them don't do the same as those keywords in other languages, though
16:13:53 <ais523> INTERCAL NEXT = BASIC GOSUB
16:13:54 <ehird> it's more like prefix ;
16:13:59 <ais523> well, not exactly in either case
16:14:03 <ais523> but it helps to get the understanding right
16:14:07 <ais523> prefix ; is a good explanation
16:14:56 <ais523> Trouble opening .I files?
16:14:57 <ais523> Scan and fix .i file associations with this free scan.
16:15:11 * ehird grumbles; OS X comes with perl 5.8 and if you install perl5.10 w/ macports you have to do "perl5.10" instead of just "perl"
16:15:11 <ais523> How many file extension errors does your computer have?
16:15:13 <ais523> You no longer need to guess.
16:15:37 * ais523 wonders if that program is spyware
16:15:42 <ehird> Is this a virus Scam?
16:15:42 <ehird> Well I was on face book when all of a sudden, my window closes and a new window pops up saying my PC (even though its a mac), has 9 very critical viruses. I don't know what to do. Also the window had the PC version of the "top" of a window. should I be worried, or just exit out of the window?
16:15:43 <ais523> I doubt it would work here, though
16:15:46 <ehird> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090412154307AAj1DcH
16:15:46 <AnMaster> ehird, there are many solutions for it.
16:16:02 <AnMaster> ehird, such as alias perl=perl5.10
16:16:06 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm allowed to grumble at stupid OS behaviour if I want, TYVM.
16:16:12 <ehird> And "#!/usr/bin/env perl".
16:16:35 <ais523> I do /have/ a registry in here, although I don't know if it has file associations in
16:16:39 <AnMaster> put a symlink in ~/bin and make it come before the other perl location in $PATH
16:16:47 <ais523> Wine has a little registry of its own in case Windows programs want to put entries into it
16:16:55 <ehird> AnMaster: thank you, I'm not an idiot, I know how to use unix
16:17:06 <ais523> Gnome has something similar, but it uses .desktop files for file extensions rather than gconf
16:17:11 <AnMaster> ehird, don't grumble, give a whistle!
16:17:31 <ehird> gconf is nice, anyway
16:17:38 <ehird> the registry is not a fundamentally bad idea
16:17:45 <ehird> windows's implementation is, though
16:18:06 <AnMaster> ais523, you got the reference at least I hope.
16:18:28 <ehird> AnMaster: So did I, Mr. An "Just because I got the joke doesn't mean I have to say haha or something" Master.
16:18:39 <ehird> (Or should I say An Hypocritical Master...)
16:18:57 <ais523> does anyone recognise the program in <http://www.wlug.org.nz/INTERCAL>?
16:19:46 <ehird> http://www.ofb.net/~jlm/intercal.html
16:19:48 <ehird> The infamous ROT-13 program
16:19:49 <ehird> Yes, this is it, the ROT-13 program I wrote in INTERCAL because I couldn't get my Pascal to compile on Unix and I didn't know C yet. It's been described on alt.folklore.computers as "4 pages of completely indecipherable code". Two of these stuck together make a decent "slowcat" for viewing VT-100 animations. [Note: Computers have sped considerably since, destroying this vestige of utility.]
16:20:53 <ais523> it's a lot shorter than 4 pages, though
16:21:36 <ais523> the page links to rot13.i
16:21:45 <ais523> but the code at the bottom of that isn't rot13.i, it's something else
16:22:15 <ehird> "People who program in Ruby aren't like other coders. We are the artists, philosophers, and troublemakers. We realize that the fringe of today is the mainstream of tomorrow. We grease the engines of progress, even when we're working outside of the machine."
16:22:21 <ais523> and based on the amount of abstention and reinstatement going on, it would benefit a lot from ONCE/AGAIN
16:22:26 <ehird> "Additionally, our heads are way up our respective asses."
16:22:34 <ehird> "'Cuz we're just so awesome."
16:23:44 <ais523> AnMaster: do you really think I can tell what an INTERCAL program does just by looking at it?
16:23:59 <ais523> however, it counts to 10 in TriINTERCAL
16:24:12 <ais523> I couldn't tell that by looking at it, but there was an explanation above the code saying what it did
16:24:13 <ehird> We are the artists, philosophers, and troublemakers. We realize that the fringe of today is the mainstream of tomorrow. We grease the engines of progress, even when we're working outside of the machine.
16:24:16 <ehird> Rather than trying to describe the language, it's probably best to show an example. The code below was written in Tri-INTERCAL: it merely counts to 10. You may also want to see a sample implementation of ROT13 in INTERCAL. Then again, you may not. ("4 pages of completely indecipherable code", according to its author.)
16:25:38 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:25:52 <olsner> fast det var ju inte författaren som tyckte det, utan alt.folklore.computers
16:26:08 <AnMaster> I saw syntax highlighting of intercal code in kate. was worried there... but it was just highlighting it as "Progress" whatever that is.
16:26:09 <olsner> also, wrong language, never mind :)
16:26:34 <ais523> ooh, http://www.brendangregg.com/Guess/guess.i
16:26:43 <coppro> Hmm... I like quantum INTERCAL better than threaded INTERCAL
16:26:51 <ehird> coppro: ITRALCEN combines them.
16:27:03 <ais523> there's redundant REINSTATEs in there
16:27:08 <olsner> AnMaster: yeah, I know :P
16:27:09 <ais523> which nobody would do deliberately
16:27:33 <AnMaster> coppro, I would prefer non-synced threaded intercal
16:27:39 <ehird> coppro: shall I explain ITRALCEN's (my hypothetical implementation of INTERCAL) threading model? it acts the same to the end user but it's all based around one operation, ais523 liked it a lot when I told him
16:27:47 <ehird> AnMaster: that's so boring
16:27:59 <ehird> i do not guarantee your prolonged sanity.
16:27:59 <AnMaster> ehird, lock step is even more boring
16:28:13 <ais523> the start of the program contains ABSTAINs and REINSTATEs that cancel each other out
16:28:20 <ais523> presumably just to confuse the reader
16:28:31 <ais523> also, it sets up a table of constant strings
16:28:40 <ais523> AnMaster: C-INTERCAL uses "mostly lock-step"
16:28:58 <ais523> in particular, it's unspecified whether a COME FROM costs a step or not
16:29:06 <coppro> also, ehird, you didn't solve my Enigma puzzle :(
16:29:07 <AnMaster> ais523, does any program try to depend on it being "mostly lock-step"?
16:29:08 <ais523> mostly because I gave up trying to figure it out
16:29:20 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, the modern C-INTERCAL hello world on Esolang does
16:29:24 <ehird> coppro: IT'S OVER! I WANT A DIVORCE!
16:29:33 <ehird> I haven't really being paying attention to enigma lately
16:29:47 <AnMaster> ais523, that would make using the full potential of a cluster rather hard.
16:30:01 <olsner> lock-step sounds pretty easy to reason about though... it's supposed to be hard, right?
16:30:05 <ais523> AnMaster: err, C-INTERCAL wasn't designed for distributed computing?
16:30:14 <ais523> INTERCAL is supposed to be /different/
16:30:24 <ais523> it's allowed to be easy, just most of the easy ways to do things have already been used
16:30:32 <ais523> that's where it gets its reputation of difficulty
16:31:07 <ais523> some things, though, like ONCE/AGAIN/ABSTAIN for multi-thread synchronisation, are really neat but I haven't seen them before
16:31:08 <AnMaster> ais523, ok, you need eintercal ("einter" pronounced as "eynter")
16:31:31 <AnMaster> or maybe entercal would be funnier
16:31:33 <ehird> ---> Installing perl5.10 @5.10.0_3+threads
16:31:45 <ais523> why are you installing 5.10?
16:31:54 <ais523> so you can mess around with the ~~ and // operators?
16:31:58 <ehird> because it has many nice features?
16:32:07 <ehird> say, new operators, that 'switch' thing
16:32:11 <ais523> or because Apple borked their Perl packaging again and you decided to upgrade while you fixed it?
16:32:22 <ehird> 5.8 is unmaintained too, IIRC
16:32:26 <ais523> / is the only 5.10 new feature I've actually used
16:32:29 <AnMaster> ais523, my aim after I get ATHR working (and working on smp vm too, which should be just the same as non-smp vm) is to make efunge support distribution.
16:32:44 <ehird> ais523: also, Modern::Perl requires it
16:33:49 <AnMaster> ok I have concurrent async bounds updating worked.
16:34:16 <AnMaster> at least as far as I can currently test it.
16:34:17 <ehird> our $VERSION = '1.03';
16:34:29 <ehird> warnings->import();
16:34:33 <ehird> feature->import( ':5.10' );
16:34:35 <ehird> mro::set_mro( scalar caller(), 'c3' );
16:34:39 <ehird> http://search.cpan.org/~chromatic/Modern-Perl-1.03/lib/Modern/Perl.pm
16:34:43 <ehird> that's a bit longer than I expected
16:34:53 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: that's a bit longer than I expected
16:34:53 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: oh well
16:35:24 <AnMaster> <ehird> that's a bit longer than I expected
16:35:39 <ehird> yes, AnMaster, internet lag exists. thank you for that.
16:35:48 <AnMaster> ehird, stop calling me blind then
16:36:47 <ehird> "cpan2dist is a commandline tool to convert any distribution from CPAN into a package in the format of your choice, like for example .deb or FreeBSD ports. "
16:36:50 <ehird> Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck yeaaaaaaaaaaah
16:37:52 <ehird> Fuck it, I'm compiling my own perl to /opt/perl
16:38:11 -!- Judofyr has joined.
16:39:20 <ehird> I wonder if cpanplus has a "shut the fuck up and install the package, bitch, I don't care if you're following dependencies" option.
16:39:40 <ehird> hey, perl has its own configure system
16:40:34 <ehird> % ./Configure -des -Duse64bitall -Dusethreads -Dprefix=/opt/perl
16:40:47 <ehird> i wonder how this system will fail!
16:41:01 <ehird> probably interestingly, with lots of fire.
16:41:01 <AnMaster> <ehird> hey, perl has its own configure system <-- you haven't noticed it before?
16:41:20 <ehird> I haven't compiled perl before.
16:41:55 <ais523> I think most people haven't compiled Perl before
16:42:15 <ehird> maybe Larry Wall had a Grand Vision from God, where he was told to make his own, amazing configuration system - and lo, it shall be The Most Divine Configuration System that Man has ever seen.
16:42:31 <ehird> ld warning: in /opt/local/lib/libgdbm.dylib, file is not of required architecture
16:42:31 <ehird> /bin/sh: ./try: Bad CPU type in executable
16:42:33 <ehird> The program compiled OK, but exited with status 126.
16:42:35 <ehird> You have a problem. Shall I abort Configure [y]
16:42:37 <ehird> Ok. Stopping Configure.
16:42:41 <ehird> it links against non-64 bit libs
16:43:36 <AnMaster> ehird, if you want it to link against 64-bit ones
16:43:43 <ehird> no, there is no 64 bit version of it
16:43:45 <ehird> that's why it failed
16:44:07 <ehird> btw, does 64 bit linux do -m64 by default w/ gcc?
16:44:09 <AnMaster> ehird, is OS X mostly 32 bit or 64 bit userland.
16:44:18 <ehird> snow leopard is 64-bitizing
16:44:24 <AnMaster> ehird, on x86_64 -m64 is default
16:44:32 <AnMaster> I think -m32 is default on some other arches.
16:44:34 <ehird> -m32 is default on os x
16:45:08 <AnMaster> anyway the reason is that on x86 the 64-bit thing adds lots of other nice stuff, not just longer pointers.
16:45:27 <AnMaster> so "more memory needed" isn't only reason for 64-bit binaries, like it is on some platforms.
16:45:30 <ehird> What Perl needs is to kick Perl 6 dead and to mostly rewrite perl(1).
16:45:33 <ais523> incidentally, someone published patches to Perl which added INTERCAL operators to it
16:45:49 <AnMaster> ehird, in that case DNF will finish first.
16:46:02 <ehird> AnMaster: err... have you seen how slow perl 6 development is?
16:46:03 <AnMaster> ais523, patches... can't you do such stuff in pure perl.
16:46:12 <ehird> AnMaster: no, you can't define new infix operators
16:46:15 <ais523> which makes it all the madder
16:46:20 <ais523> but defining new operators doesn't work
16:46:26 <ais523> not within the language
16:46:35 <AnMaster> I mean after seeing perligata and acme::brainfuck and such
16:47:02 <ais523> unless you use a source filter, and that would imply you had to be able to parse Perl
16:47:02 <ais523> unless your source filter interprets Perl too
16:47:05 <ehird> AnMaster: perligata is a source filtr
16:47:15 <ehird> ais523: well, syntax extending source filters exist
16:47:16 <ais523> and at this stage, you have to reimplement Perl inside your filter
16:47:21 <ais523> so why not just patch Perl to begin with
16:47:40 <ais523> ehird: none of them really work really properly, though
16:47:48 <ais523> either they fail in corner cases, or have weird restrictions
16:47:50 <ehird> ais523: how does MooseX::Declare work, I wonder?
16:48:03 <ais523> most of Moose works just by defining functions
16:48:12 <ehird> not moosex::declare
16:48:19 <ehird> class BankAccount {
16:48:19 <ehird> has 'balance' => ( isa => 'Num', is => 'rw', default => 0 );
16:48:20 <ehird> method deposit (Num $amount) {
16:48:22 <ehird> $self->balance( $self->balance + $amount );
16:48:27 <ais523> I don't know MooseX::Declare
16:48:28 <ehird> is moosex::declare
16:48:34 <ehird> it's considered a best practice from what I can tell
16:48:40 <ehird> use B::Hooks::EndOfScope;
16:48:40 <ehird> use Devel::Declare ();
16:48:44 <ehird> ok, I regret wondering already
16:49:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Perl compiler internals module.
16:49:11 <ais523> hooks to Perl's internals
16:49:23 <ehird> Basically, Lovecraft is a fluffy kitten.
16:49:26 <AnMaster> ok can't you add new operators that way
16:49:57 <ehird> in this case, Perl thinks it's parsing a procedure call, but this hooks up to } and rewrites the expression if it's a moosex::declare thing
16:50:17 <ehird> for a best practice it's pretty scary
16:50:35 <ehird> AnMaster: OTOH, that's transparent
16:50:47 <ehird> it could suddenly use a lovely new perl syntax extension mechanism that's just been introduced
16:50:52 <ehird> and the usage wouldn't change
16:50:53 <AnMaster> Why B btw. B as in "Binternal"?
16:51:17 <ehird> It refers to an internal perl thing I think
16:51:25 <ehird> The B module supplies classes which allow a Perl program to delve into its own innards. It is the module used to implement the "backends" of the Perl compiler. Usage of the compiler does not require knowledge of this module: see the O module for the user-visible part. The B module is of use to those who want to write new compiler backends. This documentation assumes that the reader knows a fair amount about perl's internals including such things as SVs,
16:51:27 <ehird> OPs and the internal symbol table and syntax tree of a program.
16:51:31 <ehird> maybe they just wanted a short name
16:51:41 <AnMaster> ehird, SV: is what l10n Outlook puts instead of RE:...
16:51:55 <ehird> SV means scalar value/variable
16:51:57 <AnMaster> no other client seems to translate it.
16:52:15 -!- ais523_ has joined.
16:52:41 <ehird> what did you last see?
16:52:49 -!- ais523__ has joined.
16:52:58 <ais523_> <ehird> in this case Perl thinks it's parsing a procedure call
16:53:09 <ais523__> yay, this computer is Internet-connected again
16:53:10 <ehird> we talked about why B's named B after that
16:53:30 <ehird> right, but why the short name?
16:53:51 <ais523__> maybe because it's used a lot inside the compiler itself?
16:54:04 <AnMaster> ais523_, golfing namespaces...
16:54:16 <ehird> 'Note: Wolfram asked us to refrain from posting screenshots, so we will not use any in this post."
16:54:18 <ais523__> [16:50] <ais523> anyway, I found a blog post that explained what Wolfram Alpha actually did, rather than hinting
16:54:20 <ais523__> [16:50] <ais523> http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/wolframalpha_our_first_impressions.php
16:54:21 <ais523__> [16:50] <ais523> although it's very fanboyish
16:54:30 <ehird> AnMaster: a regular namespace
16:54:36 <ehird> but Devel::Declare sounds scary
16:54:43 <ehird> Devel::Declare - Adding keywords to perl, in perl
16:54:53 <ehird> use B::Hooks::OP::Check;
16:55:01 <ehird> see, my instincts are right!
16:55:14 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from services.).
16:55:49 -!- ais523__ has changed nick to ais523.
16:57:20 <AnMaster> "Alpha is built on top of 5 million lines of Mathematica code which currently run on top of about 10,000 CPUs (though Wolfram is actively expanding its server farm in preparation for the public launch)"
16:57:36 <AnMaster> that's a lot more than I would have expected.
16:57:40 <ehird> AnMaster: how else will they deal with the billions of people using it every second with a brain implant?
16:57:44 <ais523> Wolfram's always been one for scaling up rather than improving his algorithm, IMO
16:58:08 <AnMaster> I mean 10,000 sounds like more than I would expect google to use...
16:58:17 <ais523> but the general concept is, it's Mathematica plus a giant database plus a natural language interface
16:58:26 <ehird> AnMaster: srsly? google has millions
16:58:43 <ehird> ais523: so if the bat is out of the cag can you finally reveal exactly what it is? :P
16:58:47 <ais523> you're effectively just doing database lookups through it, although they can be rather complicated
16:58:56 <ais523> and I have been just now
16:59:13 <AnMaster> well wouldn't it be more ram and disk intensive.
16:59:18 <ehird> ais523: well, I suppose
16:59:34 <ehird> AnMaster: they have to do lots of index lookup stuff every request
16:59:36 <AnMaster> "bat is out the cag"? that is one weird idiom...
16:59:45 <ais523> I don't get why people compare it with Google, even though Google and Alpha can both be used to determine information
16:59:47 <ehird> of cat out of the bag
16:59:57 <ais523> Google finds websites, Alpha is a massive database
17:00:06 <ehird> ais523: so does it actually work?
17:00:26 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal").
17:00:39 <ais523> I didn't get to type any queries into it myself
17:00:43 <ehird> even if it does I wouldn't use it; relying on anything Wolfram is touched sounds like an insanely bad idea to me
17:00:54 <ais523> apparently because the sandboxing wasn't working back then
17:01:06 <ais523> and they didn't trust me not to bring down their servers, presumably it's been improved since
17:01:19 <ehird> ais523: "];System["rm -rf /"];Print["
17:01:29 <ais523> haha, but I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work
17:01:44 <ehird> ais523: i bet the parser is just a huge gob of string replaces
17:01:45 <AnMaster> how are they going to make money from it
17:01:51 <ehird> AnMaster: advertising mathematica
17:01:55 <ehird> which costs thouasnds
17:01:58 <ais523> if you want to do somethign that takes their CPU more than a few seconds, you have to pay
17:02:10 <AnMaster> ehird, even so I doubt most users would buy it
17:02:13 <ehird> whoa, moose had multi methods!
17:02:16 <ais523> and you know how slow Mathematica is
17:02:19 <ehird> AnMaster: most users don't buy anything.
17:02:33 <ehird> I don't agree with the business model anyway
17:02:40 <ehird> but that's mostly because I believe selling bits is immoral
17:03:04 <AnMaster> ehird, damn you. I can't call you a hypocrite for saying that any longer.
17:03:09 <AnMaster> Since you are planning to change to Linux
17:03:22 <ais523> AnMaster: ehird doesn't mind selling /all/ of it
17:03:34 <ehird> I meant digital bits
17:03:37 <ehird> although I suspect you knew that
17:03:56 <AnMaster> ais523, oerjan would have been proud of that pun.
17:03:59 <ehird> well, I think apple could open source all of OS X without much business damage
17:04:03 <AnMaster> and I understood ehird meant digital bits.
17:04:11 <ais523> although in the case of Alpha, they're jealously guarding their database I think, all you get to do is query it
17:04:12 <ehird> then they'd be selling their hardware + a precompiled, presetup system
17:04:17 <ehird> which just about everyone would still pay for
17:04:37 <ais523> but then they wouldn't be the only people doing OS X
17:04:37 <ehird> and only people like me would go to the bother of compiling it to avoid paying
17:04:43 <ais523> and they'd lose a selling point
17:04:44 <AnMaster> ehird, and they would get lots of developers for free
17:04:50 <ais523> I mean, someone would be bound to port OS X to commodity hardware
17:04:52 <ehird> ais523: true, but they'd always have the nicer curves on the hardware
17:05:04 <ehird> ais523: and - applecare.
17:05:05 <oklofok> yeah selling the stuff that come from people's actual work is immoral, it's okay to get money for whatever physical objects your machinery is able to produce.
17:05:07 <ais523> are Apple fanboys addicted to the hardware or the software, I wonder?
17:05:08 <ehird> people really value having a support line
17:05:17 <ehird> ais523: hardware and software IME
17:05:21 <ais523> oklofok: I assume that was sarcasm?
17:05:25 <AnMaster> ehird, you can buy support for dell too iirc
17:05:54 <AnMaster> "Wolfram will release toolbars for FF and IE, as well as an IE8 accelerator"
17:06:01 <ehird> AnMaster: still, most people would go through apple for the pretty hardware, the assurance that they certainly know how to set up OS X, and the support direct from them
17:06:04 <AnMaster> what does an accelerator has to do with it
17:06:08 <ais523> personally, I think it'll be a whole load of work for the Wolfram people to keep their massive database up to date
17:06:21 <ehird> "Alpha will come in a free version, but there will also be a paid version, which will allow users to download and upload data to Alpha"
17:06:23 * ais523 tries to imagine Google, except instead of indexing other people's sites they wrote the entire Internet by hand
17:06:30 <ehird> i can't wait for the first alpha trolls
17:06:44 <ehird> buy alpha, insert bogus data, ???, lulz
17:06:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I think the pretty hardware bit wouldn't be a major selling point, considering the current state of economy, people prefer "cheap"
17:06:50 <ais523> how many people pay money just to troll?
17:07:03 <ehird> ais523: there's probably a few
17:07:15 <oklofok> ais523: that would be much better
17:07:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
17:07:34 <ehird> AnMaster: cheap people don't buy macs.
17:07:51 <ehird> % /opt/perl/bin/perl -M'5.010' -e 'say 2+2'
17:07:58 <AnMaster> ehird, right, what about the mid-segment though
17:08:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I would assume they tracked who did it and discarded such data, and if the problem became widespread probably limit it in some way.
17:08:11 <ehird> AnMaster: apple don't make any profit from the mid-segment as it is, so they would not lose anything
17:08:15 <AnMaster> or maybe mark it is as "not verified"
17:08:27 <AnMaster> different background colour or whatever.
17:09:09 <AnMaster> ehird, the only reason I would ever consider a mac would be mac os... think of the colour matching and typography
17:09:21 <ehird> AnMaster: you're not most people
17:10:04 <ehird> AnMaster: one interesting point is that Apple are the only major retailer to sell near-silent computers
17:10:10 <ehird> from the mac mini to the mac pro
17:10:17 <AnMaster> ehird, what about those who use mac for this reason, I'm talking about people designing ads or newspapers and such
17:10:19 <ehird> vs the fuss it takes to get a quiet PC
17:10:40 <AnMaster> where mac is still rather common
17:10:53 <ehird> AnMaster: they're well-off money-wise, in general, so they'd probably just buy an iMac and get it all for no fuss straight from apple
17:11:16 <ehird> nobody uses Dell's Ubuntu computers, really, either
17:11:46 <ehird> ais523_: you are statistically insignificant. :)
17:12:35 <ais523_> but one of the reasons I bought it was to affect the statistics
17:12:45 <ehird> try being a few thousand more people
17:13:00 <AnMaster> ehird, so you are not going to vote?
17:13:07 <AnMaster> when you get old enough I mean
17:13:17 <ehird> i never said that did I?
17:13:30 <ais523_> AnMaster's trying to draw an analogy, I think
17:13:31 <AnMaster> ehird, well are you going to or not
17:13:46 <ehird> Do I vote just to change the statistics? No.
17:14:05 <AnMaster> ehird, don't bother. Your vote isn't going to change anything.
17:14:08 <ehird> Of course, I'd tend to vote for someone who has a hope in hell of winning.
17:14:17 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not a good analogy
17:14:27 <ehird> voting for the purpose of changing the statistics isn't what voting's meant to be
17:14:29 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:14:36 <AnMaster> ehird, it is. You could consider ais523_ "voting" for the product.
17:14:40 <ais523_> actually, all that's needed with the Dell computers is for them to make a profit on them, and they'll keep going
17:14:44 <AnMaster> they aren't going to remove a best seller
17:14:44 <ehird> you could consider that but you'd be wrong
17:14:58 <ehird> voting to make someone win isn't the point
17:15:09 <ehird> you'd like that, but you vote because that's what you think is right. note that this doesn't actually apply IRL
17:15:14 <ehird> but it's certainly the original intent of voting
17:15:15 <ais523_> they don't need to outnumber the Windows computers or anything like that, just to sell enough of them that Dell's money spent on getting Ubuntu saleable was well-spent
17:15:39 <ehird> Running [/usr/bin/make test ]...
17:15:39 <ehird> PERL_DL_NONLAZY=1 /opt/perl/bin/perl "-Iblib/lib" "-Iblib/arch" test.pl
17:15:40 <ehird> Features present: preput 1 getHistory 1 addHistory 1 attribs 1 ornaments 1 appname 1 minline 1 autohistory 1 newTTY 1 tkRunning 1 setHistory 1
17:15:43 <ehird> Flipping rl_default_selected each line.
17:15:45 <ehird> Enter arithmetic or Perl expression: exit
17:15:47 <ehird> What the fuck, CPANPLUS?
17:15:51 <ehird> What do you want me to enter?
17:16:04 <ehird> Oh, it's testing readline.
17:16:18 <AnMaster> ehird, no it is enter as in Shakespear
17:16:19 <ehird> Hey, it didn't even yell at me.
17:16:45 <Deewiant> "Enter x or y" doesn't make much sense in that context
17:16:48 <AnMaster> "Excuant(sp?) Hamlet and arithmetic"
17:16:58 <ehird> it's like cpan except less than 100 pages of output
17:17:03 <ehird> oh and it actually works
17:17:18 <ais523_> grr, I forgot how much I hate windows
17:17:29 <ehird> ais523_: I heartily recommend compiling a perl in /opt/perl owned by your user, cpan actually works then
17:17:34 <ais523_> and am annoyed at being forced to use it for something for the University
17:17:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, clearly it is a modern play. An analogy for quantum mechanics.
17:17:48 <ais523_> ehird: what, really? I thought nothing made CPAN actually work
17:17:56 * ehird "s conf prereqs 1; s save" ← Yes, cpanplus, install dependencies automatically.
17:18:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so yes it makes sense.
17:18:07 <ehird> no worrying about root ownership or anything because you just run everything as your user
17:18:16 <ehird> and whereever it decides to put it works, since it's all owned by you
17:18:22 <ais523_> permissions and dependencies are the two main problems
17:18:30 <ehird> ais523_: use cpanp(1), not cpan(1)
17:18:39 <ehird> s conf prereqs 1; s save
17:18:44 <ehird> will make it automatically chase dependencies
17:18:53 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't do dependencies by default..?
17:18:53 <ais523_> no, the problem is it thinks dependencies are installed even when they aren't
17:18:57 <ehird> AnMaster: it asks you.
17:19:04 <ehird> ais523_: yes, I've never had that problem
17:19:06 <ehird> CPANPLUS probably fixes it
17:19:09 <ehird> since it's a different codebase
17:19:59 <ais523_> I think a CPAN++ is sorely overdue
17:20:06 <ehird> that's the name of cpanplus
17:20:10 <ais523_> you know, that actually works /even if/ the user doesn't jump through hoops
17:20:18 <ais523_> ehird: CPANPLUS only has one plus
17:20:23 <ehird> The CPAN++ interface (of which this module is a part of) is copyright (c) 2001 - 2007, Jos Boumans <kane@cpan.org>. All rights reserved.
17:20:25 <ehird> — perldoc CPANPLUS
17:20:45 <ehird> compiling perl is, thankfully, quite easy
17:20:59 <AnMaster> ehird, the interactive configure is highly annoying though
17:21:17 <AnMaster> I thought you were doing something crypto related
17:22:01 <ehird> cd /opt && sudo mkdir perl && sudo chown ais523:ais523 perl && cd perl && wget http://www.cpan.org/src/perl-5.10.0.tar.gz && tar xf perl-5.10.0.tar.gz && cd perl-5.10.0 && ./Configure -des -Dusethreads -Dprefix=/opt/perl && make test && make install && cd /opt/perl && rm -rf perl5.10*
17:22:07 <ehird> untested, but that's the gist of it
17:22:20 <ehird> then cpanp\ns conf prereqs 1; s save\n^D
17:22:27 <ehird> well, after putting /opt/perl/bin in your path
17:22:27 <AnMaster> efunge already have multiple user interfaces.... kind of
17:22:29 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:22:37 <AnMaster> adding a web interface to efunge would be trivial
17:22:39 <ehird> 17:22 ehird: cd /opt && sudo mkdir perl && sudo chown ais523:ais523 perl && cd perl && wget http://www.cpan.org/src/perl-5.10.0.tar.gz && tar xf perl-5.10.0.tar.gz && cd perl-5.10.0 && ./Configure -des -Dusethreads -Dprefix=/opt/perl && make test && make install && cd /opt/perl && rm -rf perl5.10*
17:22:40 <ehird> 17:22 ehird: ais523_: ↑
17:22:42 <ehird> 17:22 ehird: untested, but that's the gist of it
17:22:43 <AnMaster> using the built in tool server thingy
17:22:45 <ehird> 17:22 ehird: then cpanp\ns conf prereqs 1; s save\n^D
17:22:46 <ehird> 17:22 ehird: and you're set
17:22:48 <ehird> 17:22 ehird: well, after putting /opt/perl/bin in your path
17:22:53 <ehird> Module 'Moose' installed successfully
17:22:54 <ehird> No errors installing all modules
17:22:58 <ehird> Without prompting!
17:23:00 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you think about that
17:23:12 <AnMaster> for batch jobs only, unless I bother with ajax
17:23:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, <AnMaster> adding a web interface to efunge would be trivial
17:23:42 <ehird> % cpanp i MooseX::{Declare,Types,MultiMethods} Modern::Perl
17:23:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, meh. I guess it isn't insane enough
17:23:55 <ehird> it's so eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaasyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
17:24:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Implement TRDS and then we'll talk
17:24:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, distributed befunge with SNMP and failover support in case primary funge space server fails, one of the mirrors takes over as new master?
17:24:54 <ehird> but that's not even esoteric
17:25:02 <ehird> that's just boring shit + vaguely esoteric language
17:25:16 <ehird> parodies have to in some way differ from their target...
17:25:27 <Deewiant> I think implementing distributed stuff is kinda fun
17:25:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't say *what* it was parody on.
17:25:40 <ehird> Deewiant: but not esoteric
17:26:05 <Deewiant> ehird: Not in itself, no. That doesn't make it boring shit
17:26:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yes since there would be a fingerprint to control this inside efunge then
17:26:30 <ehird> Deewiant: I was being hyperbolic to demonstrate the unesotericity.
17:26:43 <ehird> [ERROR] Unable to create a new distribution object for 'Devel::Declare' -- cannot continue
17:26:44 <ehird> [ERROR] Failed to install 'Devel::Declare' as prerequisite for 'MooseX::Declare'
17:26:45 <ehird> [ERROR] Unable to satisfy prerequisites for 'MooseX::Declare' -- aborting install
17:26:47 <ehird> [ERROR] Unable to create a new distribution object for 'MooseX::Declare' -- cannot continue
17:26:48 <AnMaster> using erlang as the underlying distribution model
17:26:54 <Deewiant> Saying "that's not even esoteric" isn't enough, you have to insult as well? :-P
17:27:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you are talking to ehird
17:27:09 <ehird> Deewiant: Do you know nothing about me? :)
17:27:30 <Deewiant> Maybe I'm hoping there's some sensible reasoning behind it all
17:27:42 <Deewiant> I was never an asshole, even at that age :-P
17:27:56 <AnMaster> Deewiant, nor was I. But I remember lots who were in school.
17:28:07 <ehird> It should be noted that I'm rarely serious.
17:28:40 <ehird> ais523_: ais523: I think CPAN thinking things are installed when they're not is packages not declaring their dependencies properly
17:28:47 <Deewiant> If you're being an asshole it doesn't really matter whether you're serious or not.
17:28:58 <ais523> ehird: no, it's because it's tried to install them in the past, but failed
17:29:07 <ais523> for some reason it thinks the install succeeded when it does that
17:29:10 <AnMaster> ehird, why then do you act like I'm serious. I mean, do you think I'm serious when suggesting a web control panel for a befunge interpreter.
17:29:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:29:20 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't see why not
17:29:25 <ehird> AnMaster: Insofar as you would do it and find it amusing, yes.
17:29:35 <ais523> it's an insane thing to do, but no less insane than writing a Befunge interp in the first place
17:29:59 <AnMaster> ais523, true. But you would need a control panel for a massively distributed befunge system anyway.
17:30:10 <AnMaster> with colour coded status page!
17:30:22 <AnMaster> showing load percentages and what not.
17:30:54 <ehird> ais523: actually in this case it just doesnt' have the deps declard
17:31:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: That'll be very boring without a program that can actually stress them all
17:31:07 <AnMaster> ais523, in any case this functionality would just be a thin wrapper on the top of stuff erlang already provides.
17:31:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah I would have to figure out some.
17:31:17 <ais523> err, wow, KDE's file selection dialog now automatically tab-completes even if you don't press tab
17:31:22 <ais523> I'm not sure if that's helpful or not
17:31:35 * ais523 isn't sure if there are any KDE4 users here atm
17:31:38 <AnMaster> ais523, the one in 3.5 does too
17:31:40 <ehird> ais523: you mean just like firefox?
17:31:42 <ais523> IIRC AnMaster's sticking with KDE3
17:31:43 <ehird> if so, ABSOLUTELY!
17:31:53 <ehird> i don't like pressing needless keys
17:31:59 <ais523> ehird: no, firefox shows a list of suggestions
17:32:03 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Implement the better version of MVRS we were trying to turn MVRS into?
17:32:10 <ais523> whereas KDE just fills in all letters that couldn't possibly be different
17:32:11 <ehird> safari selects the first by default, see
17:32:17 <ehird> I forgot FF doesn't
17:32:23 <ais523> as in, say you have files abcde, abfgh, and bei in a directory
17:32:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, maybe, once ATHR is done. They would be compatible certainly.
17:32:33 <ais523> if you type a then you get ab, if you then press c you get abcde
17:32:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, a lot of what I'm working on for ATHR would be needed for MVRS too anyway.
17:32:58 <ehird> ais523: yar, that's nice
17:33:16 <ehird> yay, it's installing now
17:33:25 <AnMaster> http://erlang.org/doc/man/supervisor_bridge.html
17:33:25 <ais523> it'll probably take me a bit of getting used to, if I decide to use KDE for anything other than getting the wireless working
17:33:30 <AnMaster> figure out how to do that properly
17:33:38 <ais523> does anyone here know of a good back-to-front font, by the way?
17:33:51 <ais523> my idea for making KDE work like Gnome is to switch the default font to be back to front, then mirror the screen
17:34:00 <AnMaster> ais523, can't you just mirror the rendered text
17:34:04 <ais523> because it seems to be similar in UI paradigm, just reflected
17:34:26 <AnMaster> ais523, can't you customise it to work the other way around
17:34:35 <ehird> he's talking about kde.
17:34:37 -!- Slereah has joined.
17:34:40 <ehird> making kde look like gnome.
17:34:47 <ais523> no, making it /act/ like Gnome
17:34:51 <ais523> I don't much care how it looks
17:34:51 <ehird> ais523: I think Gnome is better than KDE these days. Heck, even linus switched to gnome (srs)
17:35:09 -!- WangZeDong has joined.
17:35:09 <ais523> ehird: wasn't that because his favourite Linux distro screwed up KDE4 packaging?
17:35:10 <AnMaster> ais523, rendering font back to front wouldn't help. You would need to make all the features work back to front.
17:35:18 <ehird> ais523: no, he insulted the kde devs iirc
17:35:23 * ais523 wonders why slereah's using the nick WangZeDong
17:35:23 <ehird> being unfocused or somethin
17:35:32 <ehird> ais523: presumably because of "wang" and "dong"
17:36:19 <ais523> AnMaster: do you know where the "visible bell" setting is in KDE4?
17:36:22 <ais523> this computer has a really annoying beep
17:36:43 <ehird> wait your computers beep?
17:36:53 <ehird> ==> Auto-install the 1 mandatory module(s) from CPAN? [y]
17:37:01 <ais523> or all the other things that beep
17:37:03 <ehird> This thing shells out to cpan.
17:37:05 <ais523> ehird: why not just pipe yes into it?
17:37:07 <ehird> To install its dependencies.
17:37:10 <AnMaster> ais523, for anything beeping due to readline
17:37:13 <ais523> and yes, most modules do that
17:37:14 <ehird> ais523: cpanplus doesn't prompt
17:37:19 <ais523> AnMaster: it wasn't a readline beep
17:37:24 <ehird> *** Since we're running under CPANPLUS, I'll just let it take care
17:37:24 <ehird> of the dependency's installation later.
17:37:30 <AnMaster> ais523, hm in KDE 3.5 it is in kcontrol
17:38:11 <AnMaster> ais523, under system notification
17:38:21 <AnMaster> maybe something similar for KDE 4
17:39:40 <ais523> ah, found it, under Accessibility
17:41:17 <AnMaster> ais523, since we are discussing that...
17:41:52 <AnMaster> any idea why shift 5 times in a row turns my numerical keyboard into a mouse...
17:42:01 <AnMaster> even with all Accessibility options turned off
17:42:24 <AnMaster> something else, I have no clue what, sometimes make my keys slow.
17:42:37 <AnMaster> only thing that helps is xset led on && xset led off
17:42:50 <AnMaster> I have no idea why xset would help there
17:43:02 <ais523> AnMaster: that's an accessibility keyboard shortcut to turn accessibility features on
17:43:06 <ehird> AnMaster: it's sticky keys
17:43:10 <ais523> but I think you're muddling the shortcut
17:43:17 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but I tried to turn off all such options I found everywhere!
17:43:27 <ais523> shift * 5 causes modifier keys to work like dead keys rather than hold down
17:43:39 <ais523> keyboard like a mouse is alt-shift-numlock
17:43:41 <AnMaster> ais523, well how do you prevent that from happening
17:43:46 <AnMaster> sometimes I need shift 5 times
17:43:50 <ais523> IIRC there's another option to turn off the shortcuts
17:43:59 <ais523> also, what sort of game would use shift as an input?
17:44:22 <ais523> yes, I know they do, I just disapprove
17:44:24 <Deewiant> Shift toggles running in Doom and Quake
17:44:32 <AnMaster> ais523, I turned off the "enable shortcuts"
17:44:55 <AnMaster> for all I know it might be in X itself
17:45:17 <AnMaster> anyway I want all such features off. But I don't know how
17:45:32 <ais523> but I'm used to MouseKeys!
17:45:38 <ais523> the touchpad on this laptop doesn't actually work
17:45:55 <ais523> anyway, I'm kind-of surprised you use a mouse at all
17:46:03 <ais523> given you're the sort of person who edits conffiles by hand
17:46:18 <AnMaster> ais523, How would I use gimp without a mouse.
17:46:30 <ais523> use the command-line version
17:46:41 <AnMaster> ais523, for non-batch operations
17:46:54 <ais523> err, you can do any interactive operation as a batch operation
17:46:57 <ais523> just write the commands in one at a time
17:47:12 <AnMaster> ais523, some are better done with a mouse
17:47:19 <ehird> anyone remember hotjava?
17:47:28 <AnMaster> ais523, like removing dust from a scanned image.
17:47:39 <ehird> it was an awful web browser made by sun written in java
17:47:44 <ehird> quite the rage in the 90s
17:47:52 <ais523> AnMaster: you don't need a mouse for that; just a cloth or something to remove the dust from the scanner
17:48:10 <ehird> ais523: but how will the mouse survive?
17:48:14 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but there are other stuff you can't do that way, like damaged photos...
17:48:32 <ehird> so just put one in your scanner
17:48:38 <ehird> and ask it not to nibble the things you scan
17:48:46 <oerjan> ehird: you mean it's not really a mouse, but a giant mite?
17:48:53 <ehird> oerjan: it's a dust mouse
17:48:53 <AnMaster> ais523, try correcting a photo that has been partly water damaged
17:48:57 <AnMaster> anyway it is faster with a mouse
17:49:05 <ais523> I was trying to kill a crashed minimized program
17:49:10 <ais523> and accidentally killed the panel instead
17:49:11 <ehird> AnMaster: so is editing and many other things
17:49:38 <ais523> I know of alt-f2, but don't know what KDE's panel is called
17:49:53 <ehird> pronounced kuhpannel
17:50:07 <ais523> kpanel doesn't work, kicker brought up a font configuration dialog box for no apparent reason
17:50:11 <ehird> ais523: it's plasma
17:50:24 <ehird> which also handles the widget things
17:51:00 * ais523 should stop assuming KDE works like Gnome...
17:51:14 <AnMaster> no one know how to fully turn off these mad input features
17:51:41 <AnMaster> you think they care about KDE 3.x nowdays
17:51:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("KDE obviously works like a Kobold").
17:51:59 -!- _mut_ has joined.
17:52:17 <AnMaster> ehird, to a tiling wm. Good idea.
17:52:25 <ehird> desktop environment != wm.
17:52:39 <Deewiant> Desktop environment = pointless.
17:52:41 <AnMaster> indeed. But I tried KDE 4 and I didn't like it.
17:52:42 <ehird> but tiling wms are unergonomic, so they'd probably fit you.
17:52:52 <ehird> AnMaster: you can make it look like kde 2, you know.
17:53:02 <AnMaster> ehird, can you make it *act* like that too
17:53:07 -!- Slereah has quit (Connection timed out).
17:53:14 <ehird> it already does to a large degree. you can probably make it do so even more.
17:53:39 -!- _mut_ has quit (Client Quit).
18:00:00 <ehird> Module 'MooseX::Declare' installed successfully
18:00:00 <ehird> Module 'MooseX::Types' installed successfully
18:00:01 <ehird> Module 'MooseX::MultiMethods' installed successfully
18:00:03 <ehird> Module 'Modern::Perl' installed successfully
18:00:05 <ehird> No errors installing all modules
18:01:25 <ais523> what does Modern::Perl do?
18:02:10 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: our $VERSION = '1.03';
18:02:10 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: use 5.010_000;
18:02:11 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: use strict;
18:02:13 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: use warnings;
18:02:15 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: use mro ();
18:02:17 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: use feature ();
18:02:19 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: sub import {
18:02:21 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: warnings->import();
18:02:23 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: strict->import();
18:02:25 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: feature->import( ':5.10' );
18:02:27 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: mro::set_mro( scalar caller(), 'c3' );
18:02:31 <ehird> 16:34 ehird: http://search.cpan.org/~chromatic/Modern-Perl-1.03/lib/Modern/Perl.pm
18:02:33 <ehird> you mean my flood was for nothing?
18:02:37 <ehird> (I didn't know it'd be a flood first time round, in my defense)
18:02:46 <ais523> yes, I was disconnected at the time
18:03:06 <ais523> so it's just a "use all features of the most recent Perl", it seems
18:03:23 <ehird> and "enable strict/warnings/best method call resoltuion thang"
18:03:28 <ehird> and also the intent is to have more modules in future
18:03:30 <ehird> like moose and whatnot
18:07:14 <AnMaster> what is the "sub import" function about
18:07:20 <ehird> AnMaster: import hook
18:07:21 <AnMaster> I mean what is the point of it.
18:07:29 <ehird> basically, it imports those modules in the importer's scope
18:07:31 <ehird> instead of just in itself
18:07:43 <AnMaster> what is the mro::set_mro( scalar caller(), 'c3' );
18:07:50 <ehird> method resolution order
18:08:09 <ehird> http://search.cpan.org/~rgarcia/perl-5.10.0/lib/mro.pm
18:08:09 <ehird> http://search.cpan.org/~flora/Class-C3-0.21/lib/Class/C3.pm
18:08:11 <AnMaster> No documentation found for "feature".
18:08:40 <AnMaster> This is perl, v5.8.8 built for x86_64-linux
18:08:53 <ehird> 5.8 is many, many years old and not recommended for future use
18:08:55 <AnMaster> and i'm going to when it goes stable
18:08:58 <ehird> and modern::perl doesn't work with it
18:09:02 <ehird> AnMaster: it is stable
18:09:10 <ehird> feature − Perl pragma to enable new syntactic features
18:09:27 <ehird> but only for syntax
18:09:30 <oklofok> ais523: oklofok: with thwat? <<< let's just say if it wasn't obvious, i was unlucky.
18:09:50 <oklofok> *what, although i'm not sure whether it's an error when quoting, i guess not
18:10:10 <ais523> maybe you should have quoted my correction
18:10:31 <oklofok> i think i'm copying a reference and not the actual data
18:10:41 <AnMaster> <ais523> maybe you should have quoted my correction <-- like this? --> <ais523> *what?
18:10:41 <ehird> clearly we need IRC references
18:10:45 <oklofok> because it's a reference to the context, and not just that specific thing you said
18:10:46 <ehird> all messages have a guid
18:10:50 <ehird> and you can do [&guid]
18:10:55 <oklofok> yes hyperlinks would be nice
18:10:59 <ehird> [&f7834d] ← this is kinda stupid imo
18:11:07 <ehird> would be a reply to f7834d
18:11:37 <ehird> AnMaster: locally unique id, then
18:11:48 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't work for anyone but you then
18:11:52 <ehird> one month uniqueness guarantee.
18:12:06 <ehird> that's not convenient enough
18:12:40 <oklofok> just give me a button to press
18:12:47 <ehird> [ click here for cake ]
18:12:54 <ehird> don't press Deewiant's!
18:12:56 <AnMaster> irc://server/channel/<timestamp in some lag-resistant way>/uniqeid
18:12:56 <ehird> it removes all cake
18:13:02 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not an urn
18:13:25 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Resource_Name
18:13:28 <ehird> because it's just not
18:13:49 <oklofok> (botany) The theca of a moss. <<< i'll go with this
18:14:16 <ehird> "It's official: Windows 7 to be released this week!"
18:14:53 <AnMaster> they are breaking with traditions. No longer "release late, release seldom"
18:15:10 <ehird> well, they have broke with the tradition of backwards compatibility
18:15:20 <Deewiant> That means a release candidate, not a release
18:15:28 <AnMaster> ehird, so windows 95 apps won't have any chance of running
18:15:34 <ehird> (they're putting an integrated XP virtualizer in the higher-end editions so they can break XP compatibility)
18:15:36 <Deewiant> And "release seldom" is not their tradition
18:15:37 <ais523> 7's meant to be just a backwards-compatible as Vista is
18:15:50 <ais523> the integrated virtualiser isn't because they meant to break compatibility, just because they did, IMO
18:16:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, about it being a rc not a final
18:16:04 <ais523> also, mightn't it lead to XP's security problems, I wonder
18:16:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't consider hotfixes releases
18:16:08 <ehird> ais523: well, some of windows 7 looks good to me so I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.
18:16:11 <ais523> and it's not even in there by default
18:16:14 <ais523> you have to download it
18:16:20 <ehird> not on the higher end ones
18:16:26 <ais523> the higher end ones need a download
18:16:31 <ais523> the lower end ones don't allow it even with a download
18:16:32 <ehird> the fact is that some xp apps won't run
18:16:36 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Their tradition is to release a Windows every 3 or so years.
18:16:41 <ehird> whether it's intentional or not, that means that they can start breaking compatibility
18:16:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm used to a release per year at least.
18:17:07 <ehird> AnMaster: many open source projects are much slowr
18:17:22 <AnMaster> ehird, well nethack *does* skew the average.
18:17:24 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's a complete OS + desktop environment + bunch of other stuff
18:18:06 <ehird> The tests for 'PAR::Dist' failed. Would you like me to proceed anyway or should we abort?
18:18:06 <ehird> Proceed anyway? [y/N]:
18:18:40 <ehird> anyone remember 98 PLUS!
18:18:43 <Deewiant> AnMaster: But I thought you didn't consider hotfixes releases. :-P
18:19:19 <ehird> 2003 wasn't really an official release
18:19:30 <ehird> you had to do serious hacking to get it to be desktopy, IIRC
18:19:37 <Deewiant> The break in tradition comes here
18:19:44 <ehird> yeah, XP is a dinosaur
18:19:46 <AnMaster> don't remember what it was though
18:19:57 <ehird> AnMaster: just added wallpapers and sound packs and shit XD
18:20:07 <ehird> Deewiant: 2009 - 7
18:20:14 <ehird> which is not 7 by any counting methods
18:20:27 <Deewiant> ehird: It's Windows NT version 7, isn't it?
18:20:36 <ehird> 6.something, internally.
18:20:44 <ehird> Counting Windows versions, no way is it 7
18:20:49 <ehird> unless you just ignore ones arbitrarily
18:20:53 -!- nooga has joined.
18:21:06 <Deewiant> 3.1, 95, 98, 2000, XP, Vista, 7
18:21:11 <Deewiant> Counting the only usable ones ;-P
18:21:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you added two unusable there
18:21:45 <nooga> ehird: and now you're using Mac? :D
18:21:50 <ehird> 95 and 98 are fine
18:21:55 <ehird> nooga: Me was many, many years ago.
18:21:56 <Deewiant> 95 I can't remember much of TBH
18:22:05 <ehird> AnMaster: Ur doin it rong
18:22:12 <ehird> 95 was incredibly stable, 98 was too
18:22:19 <ehird> Me was hilariously bad.
18:22:33 <ehird> nooga: i thought you agreed to go away
18:22:52 <AnMaster> ehird, 95 and 98 tended to crash as soon as any single program did
18:23:03 <nooga> i'm just hating OSX for fun
18:23:12 <nooga> tbh - it's superior
18:23:14 <AnMaster> but by 95 they should have got that right
18:23:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: But anyway, as you can see the traditional time between releases is actually around 1-2 years, not even the 3 like I said.
18:23:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you are counting different product lines there
18:23:47 <nooga> almost true bsd with shiny gui - who needs more
18:23:51 <AnMaster> 9x and NT were different product lines
18:23:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes and? All desktop ones
18:23:56 <coppro> OSX is a superior product to Windows Vista. However, I use neither and I hate Apple's guts even more than Microsoft *shrug*
18:24:05 <ehird> Apple worse than MS?
18:24:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, why not count office too. and uh, their other products
18:24:28 <ehird> Doesn't make much sense but there you go
18:24:41 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Because they're completely different things?
18:24:43 <AnMaster> Deewiant, really NT and 9x had different development teams iirc.
18:24:45 <coppro> (more specifically, I hate Steve Jobs)
18:24:55 <Deewiant> AnMaster: No, they are both OSs.
18:25:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok, so you forgot CE then
18:25:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, ok, but NT was for workstations, 9x for home users. Both desktop yes. But totally different
18:25:48 <ehird> nuthin' wrong with steve jobs
18:25:53 <ehird> ('part from cancer)
18:26:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that is an equally arbitrary limitation.
18:26:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So should I count the different versions of XP and Vista separately? :-P
18:26:18 <Deewiant> That means they did almost 10 releases in a single year!
18:26:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes, that is equally flawed. As I said.
18:26:38 * nooga works in a company where every employee has MS exems passed, certified experts, premium msdn shit available, VIP MS support
18:26:42 -!- tombom has joined.
18:26:43 <AnMaster> I suggest you base it on product line
18:26:50 <nooga> all folks there carry macbooks
18:27:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Then it's around 2-3 years.
18:27:04 <nooga> and all developments goes on macs
18:27:20 <Deewiant> AnMaster: How often has Linux made a major release?
18:27:22 <ais523> wow, that is one seriously visible bell
18:27:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, they stopped doing that model even after 2.6
18:27:41 <ehird> ais523: Feelable Bell should cause a minor earthquake in your vicinity.
18:27:42 <ais523> it filled the entire screen red for half a second
18:28:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you are comparing a kernel + desktop env to a kernel
18:28:15 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I thought that was what you were doing?
18:28:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, better compare windows to ubuntu
18:28:24 <Deewiant> Given that you were all "it should release more than once per year"
18:29:03 <ehird> use MooseX::Types;
18:29:05 <ehird> use MooseX::Declare;
18:29:07 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, compare kernel + DE to kernel + DE. This means compare NT to ubuntu or NT to red hat or such
18:29:32 <nooga> someone should build a framework for building OSes
18:29:56 <ais523> err, no, NT's a kernel
18:29:57 <nooga> it's unavailable and dead
18:30:00 <ais523> Windows is a kernel + DE
18:30:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, also XP isn't a major release. it was NT 6.1 in fact
18:30:18 <ehird> AnMaster: you're being wrong on purpose; stop that.
18:30:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so if you count major releases...
18:30:41 <nooga> SEKS is superior to all OSes
18:30:44 <Deewiant> I was thinking of x.y as a major release actually
18:31:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then linux kernel made a lot more than windows nt
18:31:11 <AnMaster> if you are comparing kernel to os anyway
18:31:27 <AnMaster> and ubuntu made a lot more than windows if you are comparing os to os
18:31:55 <ais523> how do you make symlinks in Dolphin?
18:32:01 <Deewiant> Ubuntu just aggregates incremental upgrades
18:32:02 <nooga> write equations for that
18:32:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, sure. but comparing a kernel to a full OS is just plain wrong.
18:32:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes and different product lines
18:32:55 <nooga> plain kernel is full wrong
18:32:57 <Deewiant> I'm saying that Ubuntu's releases are mostly like what you'd call Windows "hotfixes"
18:33:08 <ais523> ah, control-shift-drag works, just like it does in Windows
18:33:14 * ais523 wonders if the same shortcut works in Gnome
18:33:19 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in the same style as combining 9x and NT you should combine ubuntu, redhat, mandrake, suse, slackware, and so on
18:33:24 <ehird> Deewiant: SPs, more like
18:33:26 <ais523> Deewiant: they also upgrade all the software on the system too
18:33:27 <AnMaster> just the desktop editions though
18:33:36 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes: I said "what you'd call".
18:33:36 <nooga> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
18:33:44 <ais523> and things like Paint and Calculator normally only upgrade every few releases
18:33:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, same thing as you suggested.
18:34:03 <ehird> Deewiant: he can't, it's inherent
18:34:06 <ais523> Calculator was upgraded with Vista, but before that I think it was the same since 95
18:34:15 <ehird> ais523: nah, it changed in xp
18:34:36 <ais523> ah, I know, maybe it has a ribbon now!
18:34:42 <ehird> everything changed in 7
18:35:10 <Deewiant> Notepad is just an edit control
18:35:13 * nooga , as a certified MS expert (sic) has got 7
18:35:20 <Deewiant> It's a textbox + file save/open
18:35:45 <Deewiant> So no, it won't have a ribbon. :-P
18:35:49 <nooga> 7 is quite nice, copared to other naziOSes
18:36:05 <Deewiant> Cut/copy/paste is not a feature of notepad
18:36:10 <ehird> wow, perl startup time is slow when you add stuff
18:36:15 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the menu entries are.
18:36:27 <nooga> ehird: "wait, perl is booting"
18:36:32 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what about the search then
18:36:36 <ehird> i'm serious, it rivals java
18:36:48 <nooga> "knock knock... who's there?"
18:36:50 <ehird> % time mx-run HelloWorld >/dev/null
18:36:50 <ehird> mx-run HelloWorld > /dev/null 0.75s user 0.06s system 99% cpu 0.823 total
18:36:52 <Deewiant> I think all textboxes can do search too, I'm not sure
18:36:59 <Deewiant> It's just that it's not usually enabled
18:37:00 <AnMaster> ehird, what are you adding to perl making it so slow
18:37:01 <oklofok> how was calculator upgraded in vista?
18:37:05 <Deewiant> I could be completely wrong though
18:37:08 <ehird> AnMaster: some Moose shit
18:37:26 <AnMaster> ehird, can't you AOT compile it at all
18:37:33 <AnMaster> if no, someone should add that
18:37:48 <ehird> no, you can't really do that with perl afaik
18:43:01 <fizzie> There are/have-been all kinds of compilation-related Perl things, but I don't think I've personally ran across any that has proceeded past the experimental stage. In any case, with Perl it's pretty much just the parsing step you could do ahead-of-time.
18:43:32 <ais523> err, not even that, in many cases!
18:43:36 <ais523> especially with prototypes around
18:43:49 <ais523> but with Perl6, this is all going to be different
18:43:50 -!- jix_ has joined.
18:43:53 <ehird> Can't use string ("4") as a HASH ref while "strict refs" in use at
18:44:04 <ais523> ehird: you attempted to dereference a string
18:44:12 <ais523> that doesn't work in other languages either
18:44:31 <ais523> so you did attempt to dereference, you just didn't mean to attempt to dereference
18:44:36 <ais523> nooga: do you not know Perl?
18:44:43 <ehird> he's mocking perl, probably
18:44:51 <ehird> considering how funny he usually is (ie not)
18:44:53 <ais523> but Perl doesn't look like that
18:45:00 <ehird> no it has lots of symbols and is line noise
18:45:15 <AnMaster> actually nooga was funny here.
18:45:24 <AnMaster> the typical confusion on first seeing perl
18:45:38 <nooga> ehird: you hate me because i'm Polish ;<
18:45:38 <ais523> but Perl's way more readable than INTERCAL!
18:45:40 <ehird> no, I'm sorry, that's even less funny than "I STARTED VI AND THEN IT BEEPED HA HA"
18:46:00 <ais523> actually, your quote is very funny, but only because of context
18:46:09 <ais523> as in, it's funny that you're using that particular quote in an amusement comparison
18:46:26 <ehird> say (...) interpreted as function at HelloWorld.pm line 24 (#1)
18:46:26 <ehird> (W syntax) You've run afoul of the rule that says that any list operator
18:46:27 <ehird> followed by parentheses turns into a function, with all the list
18:46:29 <ehird> operators arguments found inside the parentheses. See
18:46:31 <ehird> perlop/Terms and List Operators (Leftward).
18:46:32 <AnMaster> ais523, yes but perl wasn't designed as an esolang
18:46:36 <ehird> I love how "use diagnostics" patiently tells you why perl is being stupid
18:47:02 <ehird> god, "Perl is hard to read and looks like line noise, ha ha". can you all go back to #kindergarden?
18:47:35 <ais523> ehird: well, writing printf ("Hello, world! %d"), 42; doesn't work in C either
18:47:50 <ehird> ais523: but "printf "abc", 42;" doesn't work in c
18:48:42 <ais523> the problem is that Perl tries to simultaneously support two incompatible syntaxes for function calls, so it has to pick one interpretation when it's ambiguous
18:48:46 <ais523> which confuses people who intended the other
18:49:24 * AnMaster prefers an easy to parse language
18:50:36 <ehird> ais523: if you do "use constant FOO => ('a'=>2,'b'=>3)", how do you access the members?
18:50:41 <ehird> (FOO){'a'} doesn't work
18:50:58 <ais523> err, you can't assign a list as a constant, that just stored 3 in FOO
18:51:01 <nooga> {} and [] should be []
18:51:07 <ais523> you want use constant FOO => {'a'=>2,'b'=>3}
18:51:13 <ais523> then you can do FOO->{'a'}
18:51:28 <ais523> store a hashref, not a list constant
18:51:31 <ehird> nooga: lists = hashes
18:54:16 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:56:14 <nooga> there is no sense in discerning [] from {}
18:56:16 <oklofok> printf ("Hello, world! %d"), 42; <<< doesn't C have the comma operator?
18:56:23 <ehird> yes, that is valid
18:56:24 <nooga> as a index operator
18:56:51 <oklofok> yeah, there should be just one syntax for indexing arrays and calling functions
18:56:59 <oklofok> (not that that was what you meant ofc)
18:57:23 <ehird> ais523: how do you turn a ref into a real again?
18:57:26 <ehird> %{foo} doesn't work
18:58:02 <oklofok> (is it a form of sarcasm to intentionally misunderstand something and agree, to tell someone you disagree with them?)
18:58:57 <oklofok> (actually i guess that's kinda obvious)
18:59:09 <ais523> ehird: into a real what?
18:59:19 <ehird> %{MESSAGES} doesn't work
18:59:21 <ais523> %$ref if the ref is stored in $ref
18:59:25 <nooga> please inform me when your discussion will achieve level that'd be suitably low to invite me again
19:00:03 <ehird> ais523: it's stored in a constant
19:00:40 <ais523> ehird: %{MESSAGES()}, I suspect
19:00:53 <ais523> which you could also write as %&MESSAGES
19:01:04 <ais523> constants are IIRC implemented as functions returning a constant value
19:01:33 <ais523> how weird and inconsistent of Perl
19:01:48 <ehird> % ./hello-world --help
19:01:48 <ehird> Unknown option: help
19:01:49 <ehird> usage: mx-run ... HelloWorld [long options...]
19:01:51 <ehird> --style One of k&r, modern
19:02:47 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % ./hello-world --style 70s
19:02:48 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % ./hello-world --style 'k&r'
19:02:52 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % ./hello-world --style modern
19:02:56 <ehird> Elliott Hird is brillant.
19:03:08 <ais523> k&r didn't have a comma in, IIRC
19:03:41 * ehird 's perl style develops further
19:03:55 <ehird> "foo" is strings you're printing out or that are otherwise for show
19:04:06 <ehird> 'foo' is for things like defaults, is => 'ro', hash keys, arguments to modules, etc
19:04:54 <ehird> i don't even know why
19:07:01 <ais523> TAEB had implicit is=>'ro' for ages
19:07:03 <ais523> but they removed it again
19:07:10 <ais523> actually, it was implicit is=>'rw'
19:07:30 <ehird> http://pastie.org/458830.txt?key=n2prm1hae8gvnrcpvvmuca ← Unholy best practices perl h ello world.
19:07:55 <ehird> Needs some word on the error it gives when you pass an unknown style; you get a stack backtrace.
19:08:14 <AnMaster> ais523, any progress on Feather
19:09:19 <ais523> not really, other than more thoughts
19:09:21 <ais523> I have no code or spec to show
19:10:47 <AnMaster> "RAM memory of 96 MBytes is recommended to run OTP on NT. A system with less than 64 Mbytes of RAM is not recommended." <-- hard to believe this is actually part of the documentation for a program released this month.
19:10:57 <AnMaster> I guess no one looked at that part for years
19:11:51 <ehird> AnMaster: have you ever read emacs documentation?
19:12:01 <ehird> If you have "pointer keys", you may use them to navigate the text.
19:12:04 <ehird> If you have a rich terminal, ...
19:12:10 <ehird> If you have a graphical display environment, ...
19:12:13 <ehird> shit like that's all over the tutorial
19:12:16 <AnMaster> ehird, yes some of those sound familiar
19:12:37 <ehird> no. it's really not
19:12:40 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't ssh to servers a lot?
19:12:47 <ehird> that's not comparable
19:12:53 <ehird> also, you're meant to use tramp
19:12:57 <ehird> using emacs remotely is discouraged
19:13:20 <ehird> how can you not know about tramp?
19:13:28 <ehird> it lets you edit remote files with a local emacs
19:13:51 <ehird> it's in the core...
19:13:57 -!- WangZeDong has changed nick to Slereah.
19:14:01 <AnMaster> ehird, I think distro split it out then
19:15:36 <AnMaster> http://erlang.org/doc/embedded/part_frame.html is rather funny to read. Like a blast from the past.
19:16:26 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % time ./hello-world>/dev/null
19:16:28 <ehird> ./hello-world > /dev/null 0.67s user 0.05s system 95% cpu 0.756 total
19:16:30 <ehird> ais523: do you think that's slow enough?
19:16:36 <ehird> heh, gnu hello is in macports's mail category
19:16:42 <ehird> Because it is protected by the GNU General Public License,
19:16:42 <ehird> users are free to share and change it.
19:16:53 <ehird> AnMaster: you don't know?
19:16:58 <ehird> -t, --traditional use traditional greeting format
19:16:59 <ehird> -n, --next-generation use next-generation greeting format
19:17:00 <nooga> embedded solaris sounds fun
19:17:01 <ehird> -m, --mail print your mail
19:17:05 <ehird> (it actually reads your mail.)
19:17:17 <AnMaster> ehird, it is not in gentoo portage
19:17:21 <ehird> AnMaster: complain!
19:17:22 <ais523> GNU Hello is used as a test of packaging and build processes
19:17:32 <ehird> AnMaster: GNU hello is a vital program!
19:17:37 <ais523> so it's got very bloated with people testing improvements
19:17:49 <ais523> it is in fact vital, not to have installed, but as somewhere for people to learn packaging
19:17:52 <ehird> ais523: it's a test of how much the gnu project can inadvertently describe itself
19:18:36 <ehird> macports only has 2.1
19:19:23 <nooga> macports=darwin ports?
19:19:32 <ehird> darwin ports was the name in, uh, 2005?
19:23:41 <AnMaster> supervisor_bridge makes no sense
19:26:38 <nooga> Erlang (BEAM) emulator version 5.2 [source] [hipe]
19:26:50 <nooga> why is it called an emulator?
19:27:14 <AnMaster> nooga, why not. It is a virtual machine though.
19:27:26 <AnMaster> it won't be able to run efunge
19:27:32 <AnMaster> Erlang R13B (erts-5.7.1) [source] [64-bit] [rq:1] [async-threads:4] [hipe] [kernel-poll:true]
19:27:32 -!- ais523_ has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client").
19:27:47 <AnMaster> nooga, get a newer one lots of reasons.
19:28:23 <nooga> nah, i'm just reading papers from erlang.org
19:28:54 <AnMaster> nooga, which one mentioned hipe btw
19:29:37 <nooga> http://erlang.org/doc/getting_started/part_frame.html
19:30:03 <AnMaster> it uses those horrible frames after all
19:30:22 <nooga> just closed the window, sry
19:30:28 <ehird> [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-04/hello-perl] % ./hello-world --style
19:30:28 <ehird> Option style requires an argument
19:30:29 <ehird> usage: mx-run ... HelloWorld [long options...]
19:30:31 <ehird> --style One of 70s, bizarro, k&r, modern, scrambled, suicidal, verbose
19:30:59 <ehird> % ./hello-world --style bizarro
19:31:07 <AnMaster> ehird, there is an important one missing
19:31:36 <ehird> i just called an AnMaster idea good
19:31:37 <AnMaster> ehird, random as in selecting a random style, not a random string
19:31:58 <AnMaster> ehird, what are suicidal and verbose
19:36:36 <ehird> AnMaster: ais523: http://pastie.org/458855.txt?key=1newk9lsd5z1nquivta (note: two separate files, see comments)
19:37:13 <ehird> ## filename (instructions)
19:37:20 <ehird> cpanp i Modern::Perl MooseX::Declare MooseX::Getopt MooseX::Types # this gets you all dependencies apart from MooseX::Runnable
19:37:24 <ehird> for MooseX::Runnable:
19:37:34 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought you meant comments as in "reply to this paste"
19:37:45 <ehird> cpanp i Module::Install
19:37:49 <ehird> git clone git://github.com/jrockway/moosex-runnable.git
19:37:52 <ehird> cd moosex-runnable
19:38:13 <ehird> if ./hello-world still gives an error that it can't find a module, "cpanp i" it.
19:38:18 <ehird> and yes, that's all a fuss
19:38:23 <ehird> hopefully moosex::runnable will be on cpan soon
19:38:30 <AnMaster> ehird, idea: olde english variant
19:38:38 <ehird> AnMaster: patches welcome!
19:39:01 <ehird> Hulloe, thine Worlde!
19:39:27 <ehird> And it means something incorrect in this context.
19:39:31 <ehird> But it sounds olde.
19:39:38 <ehird> "Hulloe, thine Worlde, delights thee!"
19:39:54 <ehird> But genuine olde english was very... well, regular.
19:40:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Other languages welcome, btw.
19:40:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Would "Hej, världen!" be correct?
19:40:44 <ehird> Translations should probably follow "Hello, world!" unless it's unidiomatic
19:40:59 <Deewiant> That'd be closer to "Hey, it's the world" or something, I think
19:41:26 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
19:41:27 <Deewiant> "Terve, maailma!" is the traditional one, I think
19:41:38 <AnMaster> anyway världen == the world, but using "värld" there would make it completely garbage
19:41:59 <ehird> AnMaster: So you can't say Hello world in swedish? :P
19:42:00 <nooga> i always wandered how they are able to write posts like on http://www.99chan.org/gent/
19:42:17 <AnMaster> ehird, "Hello the world" sounds about as strange in English as "hej värld" does in Swedish.
19:42:51 <Deewiant> If you want, "Päivää, maailma"
19:43:08 <ehird> 'swedish' => sub { "Hej världen!" },
19:43:08 <ehird> 'finnish' => sub { "Terve, maailma!" },
19:44:23 <fizzie> In the fi version the comma is very essential; "Terve maailma!" would mean "A healthy world!"
19:44:43 <Deewiant> And yet, that's the more traditional version, I think
19:45:01 <AnMaster> <nooga> i always wandered how they are able to write posts like on http://www.99chan.org/gent/ <-- that is a reverse parody on 4chan right...
19:45:17 <Deewiant> Googling for terve maailma gives only commaless versions on the first page of results
19:45:18 <fizzie> Yes, I think it is used as a hello-world-translation; but without the comma I just parse it as "healthy".
19:45:39 <nooga> add more languages ehird
19:45:46 <ehird> nooga: gimme some then
19:45:51 <AnMaster> fizzie, "hello world" == healthy?
19:45:59 <ehird> at the rate this is going I'll be putting up Acme::HelloWorld
19:46:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: fi:terve is both the greeting and the adjective "healthy".
19:46:10 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "Terve" means healthy
19:46:23 <Deewiant> The greeting's underlying meaning is something like "be in good health"
19:46:30 <ehird> nooga: what about "Hello, world!"
19:46:33 <Deewiant> Of course, nobody cares about such in practice :-P
19:46:42 <Deewiant> Everybody just uses it as a greeting
19:46:59 <nooga> yea, Witaj świecie!
19:47:05 <AnMaster> ehird, most languages don't use a , there. Sorry to disappoint you.
19:47:09 <ehird> AnMaster: THEY SHOULD :P
19:47:12 <AnMaster> nooga, he is trying to add a , there
19:47:13 <ehird> "Wide character in subroutine entry at HelloWorld.pm line 46."
19:47:22 <nooga> witaj, świece = i order you to greet candles
19:47:41 <AnMaster> nooga, how did candles end up meaning world
19:47:51 <Deewiant> ehird: http://helloworldsite.he.funpic.de/hello.htm#Human
19:48:08 <nooga> but when you talk to the world you say 'świecie'
19:48:12 <ehird> Deewiant: the fuckin' other scripts are images :-|
19:48:18 <AnMaster> nooga, but why did you say "Świecie" then?
19:48:23 <nooga> and świece = many świeca, świeca = candle
19:48:57 <fizzie> "Moi maailma!" is another Finnish alternative which is harder to misinterpret, since 'moi' isn't really overloaded, but it's not the canonical form.
19:49:11 <Deewiant> nooga: Yes, I figured you'd get it right
19:49:24 <AnMaster> nooga, ah so the upper case S matters
19:50:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, no, "Hej världen!" is the canonical one
19:50:19 <AnMaster> "Hejsan världen!" would be more like: "Yo, world!"
19:50:20 <Deewiant> I am quoting the page, correct it not me
19:51:00 <AnMaster> http://helloworldsite.he.funpic.de/hello.htm#BIT
19:51:34 <ehird> AnMaster: it's by the irregular web comic guy
19:51:45 <ehird> BIT is an esoteric programming language invented by David Morgan-Mar that treats all data like C treats strings. The language is strongly typed, with two variable types: bit and address-of-a-bit.
19:51:48 <ehird> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/bit.html
19:51:49 <Deewiant> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/bit.html
19:54:48 <olsner> and there's no address-of-address?
19:54:57 <fizzie> The GNU hello translations are "Terve maailma!" for fi, "Hej, världen!" (with the comma) for sv.
19:55:22 <fizzie> GNU has that hello world application, you know.
19:55:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, that , makes it mean "hey, the world"
19:55:42 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, well, you can file a bug report or something. :p
19:55:42 <AnMaster> look there the world! quick before he runs away!
19:55:54 <fizzie> Deewiant: GNU hello can check your emails. :p
19:56:26 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: GNU hello is a vital program!
19:56:26 <AnMaster> <ais523> so it's got very bloated with people testing improvements
19:56:26 <AnMaster> <ais523> it is in fact vital, not to have installed, but as somewhere for people to learn packaging
19:56:54 <AnMaster> Deewiant, if you read the channel...
19:56:57 <ehird> Deewiant: it really can
19:57:15 <AnMaster> ehird, does it have an info page
19:57:26 <Deewiant> ehird: Yes, as I said, I'm sure.
19:57:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what do you mean with "what" here
19:57:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I mean, what was the point of pasting that and saying that to me
19:58:23 <fizzie> Hey, the Debian "hello" package is compiled without the mail-reading support. :/
19:58:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the thing you asked about recently had already been discussed a short while before
19:59:18 <fizzie> fIt is the most useful program evar.
19:59:26 <fizzie> That's "t" and "n" for "traditional" and "next-generation" greetings.
19:59:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: So you were responding to "GNU?" from two minutes earlier? :-P
20:00:04 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I just didn't connect it since we had both said 2+ lines after that
20:00:32 <fizzie> There's also --greeting command-line attribute you can use to specify the greeting; so you can use "hello -g foo" instead of "echo foo" in many cases.
20:00:53 <Deewiant> I like how the Finnish one tells the user to use UTF-8
20:00:57 <Deewiant> [Huom: Parhaan näkymän saat käyttämällä UTF-8-merkistöä.]
20:01:11 <fizzie> Yeah, it's that line-drawing thing.
20:01:28 <fizzie> The translation .po files instruct translators to use UTF-8 line-drawing characters and add that note.
20:01:42 <Deewiant> But the untranslated doesn't? :-P
20:02:01 <AnMaster> / / / /__ / / /___ _ ______ _____/ /___/ / /
20:02:01 <AnMaster> / /_/ / _ \/ / / __ \ | | /| / / __ \/ ___/ / __ / /
20:02:01 <AnMaster> / __ / __/ / / /_/ / | |/ |/ / /_/ / / / / /_/ /_/
20:02:05 <AnMaster> /_/ /_/\___/_/_/\____/ |__/|__/\____/_/ /_/\__,_(_)
20:02:29 <fizzie> #. TRANSLATORS: Use box drawing characters or other fancy stuff
20:02:29 <fizzie> #. if your encoding (e.g., UTF-8) allows it. If done so add the
20:02:29 <fizzie> #. following note, please:
20:02:30 <fizzie> #. [Note: For best viewing results use a UTF-8 locale, please.]
20:02:53 <fizzie> The fi translator has left out the "please" part.
20:03:39 <Deewiant> There is no explicit "please" in Finnish.
20:03:43 <AnMaster> how do you ask someone nicely then
20:03:55 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/458885.txt?key=ppzch1ett4abshfhtoyja new release
20:03:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, then what about asking rudely
20:04:00 <fizzie> It would sound rather unnatural to translate it, more like. "Ole hyvä ja ..." could do it, still.
20:04:18 <fizzie> AnMaster: You add expletives.
20:04:31 <fizzie> Actually I guess that's not even necessary rude in many contexts.
20:04:33 <AnMaster> Swedish use "tack" for both "thank you" and "please"
20:04:33 <nooga> finns are untalkative
20:04:43 <Deewiant> You see, unlike other people, Finns are polite by default. :-P
20:05:03 <ehird> Does gnu hello have all the exciting variants of mine?
20:05:05 <nooga> once i've defined that i am polite
20:05:08 <ehird> Why are you all using it then?
20:05:12 <ais523> ehird: does yours read mail?
20:05:18 <nooga> an tried to speak without all that please, here you are, etc
20:05:23 <ehird> ais523: that's for version 2
20:05:29 <nooga> and it turned out i'm extremely rude
20:05:44 <ehird> AnMaster: no, it should be a web browser
20:05:45 <ais523> nooga: is that a vim command?
20:06:02 * AnMaster wonders if there is any news group for ASCII porn
20:06:05 <nooga> no, it's deformed ":D"
20:06:16 <ehird> has anyone else got my prog to work?
20:06:27 <fizzie> GNU hello has the translations: bg, ca, da, de_DE, de, el, eo, es_AR, es, et, eu, fa, fi, fr, ga, gl, he, hr, hu, id, it, ja, ka, ko, lv, nb, nl, nn, pl, pt_BR, pt, ro, ru, sk, sl, sr, sv, tr, uk, vi, zh_CN, zh_TW.
20:06:34 <ehird> fizzie: those aren't variants
20:06:44 <fizzie> Sure, it was again just a comment, not a reply.
20:06:49 <ehird> % ./hello-world --style random
20:06:49 <ehird> Hulloe, thine Worlde, delights thee!
20:06:50 <AnMaster> ehird, you should mark all the English ones with english, like english-modern
20:06:58 <AnMaster> then have a similar set for each language
20:07:00 <ehird> AnMaster: eh, the language ones are just a variant
20:07:11 <ehird> It's a bit anglocentric :P
20:07:32 <ehird> AnMaster: translated versions would translate the variants to their language, and then remove their language as a variant and add english
20:07:50 <ehird> that way the user gets a lot in their own language
20:07:58 <ehird> ais523: do you know latin?
20:08:35 <ais523> ehird: I have a GCSE in it
20:08:45 <ehird> ais523: good, what's "Hello, world!"? :-P
20:09:09 <fizzie> The ISO-639 code for latin is "la"; it seems that GNU hello doesn't have that translation at all. How faily.
20:09:22 <ais523> Ave has a slightly different meaning
20:09:32 <AnMaster> ehird, semi-olde Swedish variant: "Varde hälsad du sköna värld i nådens år $YEAR" (yes replace $YEAR with current four digit year).
20:09:33 <Deewiant> I forget the difference between the two
20:09:38 <ais523> and I'm not entirely sure that mundus has the right meaning
20:09:45 <ehird> wasn't u=v in some form of old latin or sth?
20:09:45 <ais523> Deewiant: Ave's more what you use to report to a commanding officer
20:09:56 <ehird> AnMaster: is that like "Hello in the living place of 2009"
20:10:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
20:10:04 <ais523> ehird: vowel u and consonental u were both written using the v glyph
20:10:10 <ais523> they were different letters, just written the same way
20:10:15 <AnMaster> ehird, literal English variant would be "Be greated, you beautiful world in the <untranslatable> year of $YEAR"
20:10:42 <ehird> what's untranslatable
20:10:51 <ehird> i mean, what does it mean
20:11:00 <ehird> and don't try any of that saphir-whorf shit on me
20:11:53 <ais523> I was wondering if it was untranslatable due to being too rude
20:12:07 <ehird> You beautiful world in the fuckassbullshitdick year of 2009!
20:12:10 <ehird> no, i don't think so
20:12:22 <ais523> I think that would be a brilliant quote
20:12:24 <Deewiant> Something like "in the Lord's year"?
20:12:29 <fizzie> The Finnish translation of "nådens år" is "armon vuonna", but I too don't exactly know the English one.
20:12:31 <ais523> "Be greeted, you beautiful world in fucking 2009!"
20:12:38 <AnMaster> ais523, see what Deewiant said
20:12:42 <ais523> I'm not entirely sure what it would mean
20:13:00 <ehird> it's weird seeing ais523 swear :D
20:13:05 <ais523> and in English, in translates as "AD" normally, which is short for "Anno Domini", normally translated into actual English as "in the year of our lord"
20:13:05 <AnMaster> anyway it is geniune® Olde Swede
20:13:14 <ais523> ehird: yep, I can, just normally don't, I don't see the point in it
20:13:38 <fizzie> Actually the free dictionary has the almost-literal translation "year of grace" too.
20:13:52 <AnMaster> ehird, do you think it is weird when I swear
20:13:53 <fizzie> "year of grace - any year of the Christian era".
20:13:58 <Deewiant> Gah, why are your dictionary lookups faster than my thoughts :-P
20:13:58 <ehird> AnMaster: not really
20:14:02 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't think I do it often.
20:14:46 <GregorR> Ping pang pong poing prng poong peng
20:14:50 <AnMaster> and why has none ever got the reference so far...
20:15:10 <AnMaster> seriously go use distributed erlang!
20:15:19 <Deewiant> Getting a reference doesn't imply saying that one did
20:15:19 <ais523> is pang what you get when there isn't a pong?
20:15:40 <Deewiant> And besideswhich, I've responded "pang" to ping before without knowing that that's what Erlang does in that case :-P
20:15:42 <fizzie> So if you want to be rather literal-minded, it seems that also "-- you beautiful world in the year of grace 2009" would be passable English. At least that structure is used in the interwebs somewhere, which must mean it's correct.
20:15:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, true, but did you get it.
20:15:59 <AnMaster> (test@tux)1> net_adm:ping(node()).
20:16:06 <AnMaster> (too lazy to set up two notes)
20:16:08 <fizzie> "PING? PONG!" is what mIRC used to print for server-pings in the status window.
20:16:17 <Deewiant> My second line's point was that even if I had known it I wouldn't have considered it a reference.
20:17:21 <AnMaster> ehird, reversed should be a separate option. Since you can reverse any of the variants
20:17:37 <ehird> AnMaster: reversing all the variants isn't really t hat intersting
20:17:47 <ehird> i just put the reversed variant in for completeness
20:17:48 <AnMaster> ehird, true, but you wanted bloat
20:17:55 <fizzie> I had my ircII scripted to print that "PING? PONG!" message too, because I had to know when the server ping happened in order to have enough time to disconnect the modem and redial without getting a ping-timeout from IRC. (It was PPP with a static IP and I got it to keep the interface up.)
20:18:04 <AnMaster> ehird, having more reversed variants == more complete
20:18:25 <ehird> !dlrow, olleH is common
20:18:33 <ehird> !noom ,llewrraF isn't
20:18:47 <AnMaster> fizzie, implement utf-8 parsing in fungot!
20:18:48 <fungot> AnMaster: is. absorb it on my door, which was one, will terminate abnormally or otherwise fail operate correctly.
20:18:54 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon* lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
20:18:54 <fizzie> Fungot doesn't do utf-8 in brainfuck input; the cells are one-byte anyway.
20:19:04 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
20:19:32 <fizzie> Okay, it doesn't do utf-8 anywhere, but it doesn't really show up in other places. :p
20:19:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> !dlrow, olleH is common <-- yeah. In befunge.
20:20:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah yes no string splitting in underload...
20:22:11 -!- M0ny has quit ("PEW PEW").
20:23:05 <ehird> ^scramble Hello, world!
20:23:34 <AnMaster> yeah my client tries to guess encoding
20:24:02 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway the scrambled one isn't common I think
20:24:06 <fungot> >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2]
20:24:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, still that >> vs 2< bug
20:25:21 <ehird> so anyone managed to run my prog yet
20:27:25 <fizzie> Yes, haven't had time to fix it yet. It's strange that I hadn't noticed that bug; obviously I don't do much testing.
20:31:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I haven't planned to do it, too much work with this moose thing
20:31:22 <AnMaster> plain perl and I might have done it
20:31:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Barely any perl script works with NO cpan stuff
20:31:37 <ehird> if ais523 didn't write it
20:31:45 <ehird> problem is tha tMooseX::Runnable isn't in cpan yet.
20:31:52 <AnMaster> ehird, sure but at least common ones
20:32:02 <ehird> AnMaster: "cpanp i Modern::Perl MooseX::Declare MooseX::Getopt MooseX::Types" will get you most of the way in one shot.
20:32:17 <ehird> Also, Moose is common
20:35:28 <GregorR> Hey, you can't do two in a row!
20:35:37 <ehird> GregorR: I did, and I feel kind of bad about it :(
20:37:20 <Deewiant> I did it with plain cpan and it worked fine.
20:37:38 <ehird> But I said AnMaster.
20:37:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Did you do the git dance?
20:37:57 <ehird> 19:37 ehird: cpanp i Module::Install
20:37:57 <ehird> 19:37 ehird: git clone git://github.com/jrockway/moosex-runnable.git
20:37:58 <ehird> 19:37 ehird: cd moosex-runnable
20:38:00 <ehird> 19:37 ehird: perl Makefile.PL
20:38:04 <ehird> 19:38 ehird: make install
20:38:06 <ehird> 19:38 ehird: if ./hello-world still gives an error that it can't find a module, "cpanp i" it.
20:38:21 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm talking to Deewiant.
20:38:23 <nooga> ehird: long, hard english word please... testing speech synthesiser
20:38:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: I'm talking to Deewiant.
20:38:33 <ehird> nooga: antidisestablishmentarianism
20:38:34 <Deewiant> nooga: Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
20:38:45 <GregorR> nooga: Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis.
20:38:48 <ehird> Deewiant: While I'm at it, latest version: http://pastie.org/458917.txt?key=d9dsr9gkycblxacz9x2qxg
20:38:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did you look that one up
20:39:07 <ehird> why would you have to look supercalifragilisticexpialidocious u
20:39:20 <Deewiant> Sesquipedalian words are easy to remember.
20:40:26 <fizzie> Sesquipedalian Loquaciousness is a tvtropes trope; that's the only use so far I've seen.
20:40:32 <AnMaster> nooga, what about olde English. Thy shalt notte take listhen to a speecth synth saying this.
20:40:52 <nooga> crashed my virtualbox
20:41:07 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal").
20:41:15 <Deewiant> fizzie: Sounds like one of my old googlewhacks
20:41:23 <AnMaster> fizzie, I refuse to read on tvtroupes. Take too much time.
20:41:42 <AnMaster> it is a tl;dr where d is "did" in this case.
20:41:43 <Deewiant> I still have a text document containing 67 pairs of words that were once googlewhacks
20:42:29 <GregorR> I don't think thingamabob is a real word, although it is a very commonly said one :P
20:42:48 <Deewiant> These are only the ones that were accepted by googlewhack.com; it uses (used?) dictionary.com to check them
20:42:58 <Deewiant> Thingamabob is in dictionaries
20:43:12 <GregorR> I remember one I got on googlewack, but it's not a googlewhack anymore :(
20:43:49 <Deewiant> otorhinolaryngological astronauts
20:43:50 <ehird> promiscuous neodarwinism :D
20:44:33 <fizzie> Deewiant: Based on the number of results for those nowadays, the internets truly were smaller back then.
20:44:34 * ehird tries to get one with googlewhacking in
20:44:41 <ehird> not "googlewhacking presbyterians" :-(
20:44:52 <Deewiant> Oh, there's an honorary mention for exactly 666 results
20:45:05 <Deewiant> It's much harder to googlewhack these days.
20:45:29 <Deewiant> Google indexes x*10000 pages instead of x.
20:46:01 <ehird> not "polyhedral frightening"
20:46:02 <Deewiant> Also, Google does spelling correction.
20:46:21 <ehird> not "polyhedral acupuncture" either
20:46:29 <ehird> ais523: those aren't in the dictionary
20:46:35 <Deewiant> And we're working with dictionary words.
20:46:45 <ais523> I thought ecru was a real word
20:46:50 <ehird> not "acupunctural pokemon" either
20:46:51 <ais523> and DOBELA's a real word in this channel
20:47:02 <Deewiant> Not in the dictionary, though, which is what counts.
20:48:38 <ehird> "polyhedral dancemaker"
20:48:55 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=polyhedral+acupunctural+dancemaker&btnG=Search 2 words but 3 results
20:49:57 <Deewiant> The spelling correction is making this a real pain.
20:50:05 <Deewiant> "Crescentic" matches "crescent" -> 1000s of results.
20:50:27 <Deewiant> mugwumpery's vividest -> 2 results, darn.
20:50:46 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=monk-jumping+wampeter&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
20:50:48 <ehird> this is impossible
20:51:09 <Deewiant> You'll note wampeter doesn't actually appear in the top result.
20:51:21 <ehird> http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=unknown+moveritis&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
20:51:46 <ehird> Deewiant: where you can't stop being a mover!
20:51:58 <ehird> "unknown malt-tickler" has 733 results
20:52:39 <ehird> "polyhedral acupunctural-tickler" has 152; clearly my word choices suck
20:53:20 <Deewiant> Results 1 - 2 of about 0 for mugwumpish redcar.
20:53:44 <Deewiant> You'd think it'd say "about 2".
20:53:50 <Deewiant> Like it does for mugwumpish permittivity.
20:54:14 <ehird> Results 1 - 10 of about 4,650 for eucharistic acupuncture. (0.51 seconds)
20:55:27 <ehird> Results 1 - 10 of about 166 for two resultitis. (0.23 seconds)
20:55:57 <Deewiant> Let's see if Googlewhack.com accepts it
20:56:07 <ehird> Deewiant: What is it? :O
20:57:12 <ehird> Results 1 - 10 of about 1,380 for neologistic poltergeist. (0.13 seconds)
20:57:16 * GregorR can't stop watching Happy Tree Friends.
20:57:22 <GregorR> Even though it makes me hate life :P
20:57:44 <fizzie> Wordlists are annoying.
20:58:03 <Deewiant> They, too, are much more promiscuous than when I was last whacking.
20:58:16 <ehird> Results 1 - 10 of about 4,710 for promiscuous wordlist. (0.65 seconds)
20:58:19 <fizzie> Results 1 - 10 of about 24 for zygotic gastrolavage; and *all* those seem to be wordlists.
20:58:29 <Deewiant> Yep, most of my results are only wordlists now.
20:58:36 <Deewiant> Googlewhack rejects wordlists, BTW.
20:58:40 <ehird> Results 1 - 10 of about 1,330 for embarrasment-wrought designation. (0.26 seconds)
20:59:15 <ehird> Results 1 - 10 of about 4,090 for eukaryotic ambassador. (0.25 seconds)
20:59:18 <Deewiant> The thing to do is get something with very few results, look for a non-wordlist and try to match only that result
20:59:29 <GregorR> ehird: Except that all ambassadors are eukaryotic :P
20:59:40 <GregorR> ehird: Although that's not the first word I'd think of to describe them.
20:59:57 <Deewiant> Damn you, people.sc.fsu.edu/~burkardt/datasets/words/wordlist.txt!
21:00:12 <Deewiant> That thing's given me at least 5 two-results
21:02:43 <ehird> Results 1 - 5 of 5 for eukarytoic misunderstandment. (0.24 seconds)
21:03:38 <ais523> Your search - -the -a - did not match any documents.
21:03:47 <ais523> I was going for an anti-Googlewhack
21:03:53 <ais523> but I bet Google doesn't do them
21:04:05 <ais523> besides, there blatantly aren't any
21:06:43 <Deewiant> Argh, now Googlewhack sees 0 for my whack.
21:08:00 -!- Sgeo has joined.
21:08:29 <AnMaster> <ais523> besides, there blatantly aren't any
21:08:55 <AnMaster> did you restrict it to "English pages"
21:09:05 <ais523> I mean, I'm sure there are at least four websites which have mutually disjoint sets of words
21:09:45 <ais523> ehird: explain to AnMaster, please?
21:09:58 <ehird> ais523: sorry, psychologist says I'm not allowed to do that any more
21:10:07 <ehird> apparently it's very important
21:10:12 <AnMaster> but what is "mutually disjoint sets of words"
21:10:17 <ais523> well, by my search of -the -a, can you guess what I meant by antigooglewhack?
21:10:51 <AnMaster> ais523, but I'm saying there is such pages. Most Swedish ones wouldn't have either for example.
21:12:56 <fizzie> I assume the "aren't any" meant that there aren't any antigooglewhacks, not that there aren't any pages without "the" and "a".
21:13:23 <AnMaster> maybe it won't try to do hits like that if there is no positive part ot match on
21:15:51 <Deewiant> Gah, Googlewhack needs to start using the same Google I'm using
21:16:30 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:16:33 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:16:40 <fizzie> "Sorry, Google does not serve more than 1000 results for any query. (You asked for results starting from 222333444.)" That's very limited.
21:16:50 <Deewiant> Yay, got one which it sees but it's a wordlist
21:17:02 <Deewiant> I think I'll be satisfied with that
21:17:16 <fizzie> "Results 1 - 10 of about 17,710,000,000 for a"; I was hoping it'd let me browse all those 17 short-scale-billion pages.
21:17:18 <ais523> what's the point in claiming there's billions of results if we can't see them all?
21:17:44 <Deewiant> You can see them all with different queries
21:18:06 <fizzie> But I'd like them ranked in the relevance to the query "a".
21:18:09 <Deewiant> And so that you can googlefight, of course.
21:18:43 <fizzie> Also funny that if you do start=1000000000 and it gives that message; but for start=2000000000 it prints results 1-10 and ignores start.
21:19:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, err: " Results 1 - 10 of about 16,070,000,000 for a. (0.24 seconds) "
21:19:35 <AnMaster> it varies each time I hit search
21:19:41 <Deewiant> Results 1 - 10 of about 31,560,000,000 for a. (0.05 seconds)
21:19:49 <Deewiant> Gah, where did those two lines come from
21:19:59 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 4,750,000,000 for an [definition]. (0.18 seconds)
21:20:08 <Deewiant> Results 1 - 10 of about 8,250,000,000 for an
21:20:19 <Deewiant> My Google is twice as good as yours
21:20:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, twice as many irrelevant results you mean
21:21:05 <Deewiant> Yahoo wins: 1 - 10 of 31,600,000,000 for a
21:21:06 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 2,660,000,000 for google. (0.19 seconds)
21:21:20 <fizzie> Curious fact: start=1073741824 (which is 2^30) is the largest number it "accepts" (in the sense that it complains instead of showing results 1-10).
21:21:20 <Deewiant> Results 1 - 10 of about 2,670,000,000 for google. (0.06 seconds)
21:21:40 <Deewiant> Yahoo: 1 - 10 of 4,560,000,000 for google (About) - 0.04 s
21:22:17 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 2,460,000,000 for yahoo [definition]. (0.29 seconds)
21:22:45 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 6,480 for cfunge. (0.18 seconds)
21:22:56 <AnMaster> I think I had 0 results when I selected that name
21:22:56 <Deewiant> 1 - 10 of 7,360,000,000 for yahoo (About) - 0.04 s |
21:23:12 <Deewiant> 1 - 10 of 10,200 for cfunge (About) - 0.25 s
21:23:51 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 1,500 for efunge. (0.12 seconds)
21:24:02 <Deewiant> 1 - 10 of 186 for efunge (About) - 0.21 s
21:24:46 <fizzie> My google gave just: Results 1 - 10 of about 2,440 for cfunge. It's a anti-befungeist.
21:24:58 <Deewiant> You've been training it poorly
21:24:59 <AnMaster> Results 1 - 10 of about 125,000 for ccbi. (0.21 seconds)
21:25:49 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's the conforming concurrent befunge-98 interpreter
21:25:58 -!- nooga has joined.
21:26:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I always try to select a name with less than 10 hits for new projects
21:26:01 <fizzie> Also "Did you mean: clunge" sounds somewhat... disparaging. The connotations are "clunky" and "kludge", at least for me.
21:26:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so "Conference of Catholic Bishops of India" was added later
21:27:51 <Deewiant> CCBI was a rename so I might not have been careful there.
21:28:03 <Deewiant> The long form is googlable, FWIW.
21:28:19 <AnMaster> !befunge returns same results as befunge
21:28:34 <Deewiant> befunge risc and it's the first result.
21:28:41 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you renamed from the long form
21:28:57 <Deewiant> From "dcbefunge" and possibly something else before/after that
21:29:27 <Deewiant> Deewiant's / D, not sure which, Concurrent Befunge
21:29:43 <lifthrasiir> google for 26^4 combinations, and select the least frequent term
21:29:49 <Deewiant> Might have been conformant but I think it was concurrent.
21:30:12 <AnMaster> Deewiant, dcbefunge should have been a befunge implemented in dc(1)
21:30:33 <AnMaster> fizzie, that was a very fizy comment
21:30:37 <Deewiant> Is dc(1) powerful enough for that?
21:31:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, not saying it would be easy though
21:33:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:34:19 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:39:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Connection reset by peer).
21:39:12 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:47:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
21:48:21 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:09:18 <Sgeo> "[MY STATE]: [MY COUNTY] health officials announce one suspected swine influenza case under investigation."
22:11:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:11:40 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:28:36 -!- poseidon has joined.
22:29:42 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
22:33:32 -!- poseidon has left (?).
22:36:52 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:48:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:58:56 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined.
23:01:16 <ehird> "I think that the average coder gets about 10-20 lines of code written in a day."
23:01:19 <ehird> Bit of a low estimate...
23:06:17 <Slereah> Don't say such things. First day at the lab tomorrow :(
23:10:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:10:08 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:12:37 <Slereah> Where I have to code shit and stuff
23:13:57 <ehird> Slereah: wait but it's the LHC isn't it
23:14:15 <ehird> if it is um just don't fuck it up okay
23:15:12 <Slereah> I'll make it shoot holes in your pots and pans
23:15:22 <Slereah> I just do theoretical models, don't worry
23:15:38 <ehird> Slereah: why are you clever
23:16:36 <ehird> well he did his study thing on the lhc
23:16:39 <ehird> so i assume it's related
23:17:10 <Slereah> I get an internship for two months starting tomorrow
23:17:18 <Slereah> At the local lab, Subatech
23:17:25 <Slereah> Who works on some parts of the LHC project
23:17:33 <AnMaster> I always thought Slereah was some 4chan /b/tard. I guess I was wrong.
23:17:35 <Slereah> http://www-subatech.in2p3.fr/ < thar
23:21:48 <Slereah> Remember that 4chan are nice people, too
23:21:48 <Slereah> http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3765/30255d5e4e.jpg
23:23:55 <Sgeo> If you make a mistake that means the models say we won't die when we will die, I'll just have to watch the LHC kill you before dying myself
23:24:06 <Sgeo> </failed-attempt-at-humor?
23:24:24 <ehird> that's not just failed
23:25:53 -!- coppro has joined.
23:31:51 <Slereah> I think they'll check up at the end
23:39:48 <AnMaster> Sgeo, are you trying to suggest it was humor.
23:44:01 -!- calamari has joined.
23:48:20 -!- sebbu has joined.
23:49:45 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:54:22 -!- nooga has quit ("Lost terminal").
23:56:04 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)).