00:00:54 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: wut
00:02:34 <ehird> is there a bsd with binary pkgs?
00:03:42 <ehird> really? Even Open?
00:03:49 <ehird> do you still have to use ports, though?
00:03:55 <ehird> I suppose there may be frontends
00:04:02 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=pkg_add&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=OpenBSD%20Current&arch=i386&format=html
00:04:19 <ehird> Does bsd have anything similar to lvm?
00:04:20 <Gracenotes> ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
00:04:38 <Gracenotes> yes, it was total skill that my eww was exactly as long as your comment
00:06:12 <Gracenotes> nothing. btw mah raytracer. http://67.223.225.106/tasd/
00:06:29 <oerjan> <GregorR> On the twelfth day, the LORD created cheap VM creation. And it was good. <<< No, that was on the zeroth day. You don't seriously think he would run us without sandboxing?
00:07:57 <psygnisfive> there has been discovered a new and wonderful form of poetry! :o
00:08:43 <psygnisfive> what, you dont like my inelegant use of the there+passive? dont give me your grammar nazism!
00:09:06 <ehird> What's the poetry.
00:09:11 <oerjan> no, he meant angkor wat. that's where it was discovered, right?
00:09:38 <psygnisfive> the discoverers were eating soup from that very area when the reporters arrived
00:10:05 <psygnisfive> take a text in language A. spell check it as if it's language B. then translate the text from language B into language A.
00:10:36 <ehird> Thhhe, were eating poetry
00:10:36 <ehird> drinking tea from that
00:10:45 <ehird> area where it was discover-
00:11:09 <psygnisfive> The oil problem is, lead away I switch languages in Misheard 2000 (wedge mouthguard does automatically hen I switch keyboard lay-outs), mouthguard bugs me bolt the facet that dinner table slow is note supporter Bi the game crazier, Belause {name} mouthguard haircut bone install. And let me count ouch, that is far point of attachment.
00:11:28 <ehird> psygnisfive: that's far too coherent for that process surely
00:11:56 <ehird> so similarish words
00:12:35 <ehird> MAYBE SHOULD JAPANESE
00:13:27 <ehird> psygnisfive: hey that's just one strand of reading!
00:13:39 <ehird> MAYBE you SHOULD KILL THE JAPANESE
00:13:42 <ehird> MAYBE I SHOULD try JAPANESE
00:13:42 <Gracenotes> Oh, I love having a monospaced IRC client
00:13:50 <Gracenotes> but :\ reading it horizontally doesn't make sense
00:13:54 <ehird> MAYBE you SHOULd try JAPANESE
00:14:01 <ehird> Gracenotes: yeah I tried that at first
00:14:18 <oerjan> We're gonna have to slap the dirty little Jap
00:14:37 <ehird> hey I used to be a
00:14:37 <ehird> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SPIRAL<
00:14:46 <ehird> i'm all about meaningless furor as art.
00:15:27 <Gracenotes> spiral, you say? http://www.onemanga.com/Uzumaki/
00:16:31 <Gracenotes> the same guy who made Enigma of Amigara Fault
00:19:55 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:20:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
00:25:01 <psygnisfive> has anyone ever tried to read finnegans wake?
00:27:10 <psygnisfive> its less comprehensible than the dutch-english thing from above
00:27:34 <ehird> riverrun, past Eve and Adam's
00:27:57 <psygnisfive> bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonnerronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenthurnuk!
00:28:06 <oerjan> three quarks for muster mark
00:28:59 <psygnisfive> who i would guess has read the thing full through
00:30:46 <psygnisfive> Brékkek Kékkek Kékkek Kékkek! Kóax Kóax Kóax! Ualu Ualu Ualu! Quaouauh!
00:38:35 <Gracenotes> Finnegan's Wake wiki, by the way: http://www.finnegansweb.com/wiki/index.php/Page_3
00:39:25 <ehird> Analyzing it destroys it.
00:40:15 <Gracenotes> ehird: beat you by two and a half years on that point :P http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=202042&cid=16540372
00:40:57 <Gracenotes> wow... it's been a long time, internet.
00:41:09 <ehird> 2006 ain't long ago
00:41:28 <ehird> true. I was an idiot in 2006.
00:41:53 <ehird> started netting in '98. so... about 9 years to become unstupid
00:46:27 <psygnisfive> im listening to a reading of finnegans wake
00:46:35 <ehird> rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrg
00:46:55 <psygnisfive> and im almost willing to believe that if this was read with a very thick accent, itd actually be readable
00:47:22 <ehird> Idea: Finnegans Wake... sung!
00:48:11 <ehird> *70s sort of rock, think Led Zepplin* Riverrun, past Eve and Adam's yeah/From swerve of shore to bend/Of bay, brings us by/A commodius vicus/Of recirulation back to Howth Castle/aaand Enviro-ons
00:48:20 <psygnisfive> maybe joyce was just illiterate and couldnt spell :o
00:51:06 <psygnisfive> finnegans wake is very reminiscent of the output of a markov chain model of english sentences
00:52:02 <psygnisfive> we could construct some sort of grammatical model of english and have it generate random sentences that are wake-esque :o
00:54:18 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
01:02:34 <ehird> http://toastytech.com/guis/winvistawin101.png
01:03:15 <ehird> psygnisfive: Windows 1.01 Vista!
01:07:02 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:07:06 -!- puzzlet has joined.
01:07:21 -!- coppro has joined.
01:07:47 <GregorR> file:///home/gregor/codu/public_html/imgs/win3plusplus.png
01:07:54 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:09:41 -!- Sgeo has joined.
01:10:03 * ehird considers if you could use compiz-fusion + dmenu for a minimalist environment
01:10:16 <Sgeo> GregorR, what wsa stupid?
01:10:19 <GregorR> http://codu.org/imgs/win3plusplus.png // what I meant to link.
01:10:23 <GregorR> Sgeo: <GregorR> file:///home/gregor/codu/public_html/imgs/win3plusplus.png
01:10:24 <ehird> 01:07 GregorR: file:///home/gregor/codu/public_html/imgs/win3plusplus.png
01:11:00 <GregorR> Anyway, go look at http://codu.org/imgs/win3plusplus.png :P
01:11:05 <GregorR> That was relevant to <ehird> http://toastytech.com/guis/winvistawin101.png
01:11:11 <ehird> toasty tech has shit like that too, yeah
01:11:33 <GregorR> Gracenotes: This is just my hg clone
01:12:07 -!- puzzlet has joined.
01:12:11 <Sgeo> There's a Moka5 thingy for Win 3.1
01:12:12 <GregorR> Err, that is, that file:// path is just an hg clone
01:12:16 <Sgeo> Don't know how legal it is
01:12:35 <ehird> MokaFive LivePC Engine makes use of VMware Player as a virtualization platform, but includes additional features such as automatic updates of virtual machines, streaming and caching of virtual machine images, integrated backup, hardware-accelerated 3D graphics support, and zero install when running from a USB drive.[1]
01:13:19 <GregorR> The thing that people are supposed to see as weird in my screenshot is that it's Firefox and bash running on Windows 3 :P
01:13:41 <ehird> It's not too interesting :P
01:13:43 <ehird> Been there done that
01:13:43 <Sgeo> And being in NT351
01:13:56 <GregorR> Bleh, you people are too smart :P
01:17:42 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:17:46 -!- puzzlet has joined.
01:18:16 <ehird> eh, it seems likely that Arch is the distro for m
01:18:30 <GregorR> ORLY? I've never tried Arch.
01:18:38 <GregorR> Summarize its advantages in one IRC line :P
01:19:13 <GregorR> (Using Debian as a base for comparison if necessary)
01:19:37 <ehird> GregorR: it doesn't mod upstreams much, large amount of user-contributed packages, friendly & big community, it's minimalist, and yet you can still install big glob suites with one command, the package manager seems alright, and it has 64-bit binaries and all that
01:20:04 <ehird> compared with debian: mods upstreams less, seems to be generally more oriented to fixing things at upstream instead of patching downstream
01:20:22 <ehird> and is generally more minimal
01:20:43 <GregorR> Yeah, Debian makes sometimes-significant modifications to upstream, meaning that sometimes the Debian version is actually quite a bit different than upstream.
01:21:01 <ehird> I don't mind value-add stuff, I just don't want it by default
01:21:02 <GregorR> Example: netpbm sucks on Debian, I always install it manually :P
01:21:12 <GregorR> Oh, my example is a value-subtract.
01:21:24 <ehird> Upstream's for me, and arch is similar enough to debian that I can probably just use it as a lean, mean Linux universe machine
01:21:48 <ehird> try it in a vm if you want
01:22:10 <ehird> GregorR: oh, and rolling release, which I don't actually care about
01:22:18 <ehird> rolling release works better when you don't mod upstream ofc
01:22:44 <GregorR> Out of curiosity, does Arch work on any non-x86alike platforms?
01:22:57 <ehird> GregorR: i686 and x86_64 only, it seems.
01:23:20 <ehird> GregorR: The only things I'd consider running a non-x86 on is embedded stuff, though.
01:23:29 <ehird> And for embedded stuff I wouldn't use a full linux distro :-)
01:25:20 <Sgeo> The Chrome 3D button disappeared
01:25:21 <ehird> GregorR: Oh, and, Arch uses a BSD-style init.
01:25:25 <Sgeo> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
01:25:30 <ehird> GregorR: Runlevels, you understand. And whatnot.
01:25:38 <ehird> /etc/rc.conf pointing to shit in /etc/rc.d/.
01:25:44 <ehird> It's simple. I like that. init.d is confusing.
01:25:55 <ehird> http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/FAQ#Q.29_What_exactly_is_this_.27BSD-style.27_init_framework_I_keep_hearing_about.3F
01:27:16 <ehird> Oh, and Arch's community seems to generally prefer throwing text around instead of big anti-unix environments.
01:27:21 <ehird> I can work with either, but minimalism is nice.
01:27:29 <ehird> Even if I _do_ need something to fill up that 12GB ram.
01:28:02 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: mine's faster ;-P
01:28:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: competing against my own rig is hard, don't make me :P
01:30:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Arch? :-P
01:30:58 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Well, a linux helps, for the LVM alignment stuff.
01:31:01 <ehird> I don't know how to do that on BSD.
01:32:45 <oerjan> !slashes /.\0/,\,0,\,1//.\1/,\,1,\,0//,\,/.//.//.0.1.1.0
01:32:45 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I'm not sure where you'd put the mechanical HD, though. /home would put dotfiles on it defeating the point. ~/stuff as the mechanical HD is a bit inelegant.
01:33:33 <oerjan> !slashes /.\0/,\,0,\,1//.\1/,\,1,\,0//,\,/./.0.1.1.0
01:33:36 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: ~/media, with symlinks at ~/music, ~/porn, ~/movies
01:33:51 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
01:33:55 -!- puzzlet has joined.
01:34:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what about source code? it's not media, but do you want to hammer the SSD with those writes? I guess it's just me being paranoid :-P
01:34:16 <ehird> But yeah, I'm generally suspicious of symlinks, it may be the best solution in that case.
01:34:47 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,1,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//***/.//.0
01:35:03 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,1,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//*******/.//.0
01:35:03 <EgoBot> 01101001100101101001011001101001100101100110100101101001100101101001011001101001011010011001011001101001100101101001011001101001
01:35:19 <ehird> Anyway. Bye. bsmntbombdood: if you want to ask me something or whatever, do it in /msg so it sticks out tomorrow :P
01:35:45 <bsmntbombdood> you mean you don't have a script to show you highlights in a different window?
01:54:17 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//***/.//.0
01:54:23 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//****/.//.0
01:59:58 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\0-\/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\//****/.//++.0.1
01:59:58 <EgoBot> ==01001010-0100101001001
02:01:19 <GregorR> What's the quickest way from 0 to Sha1 sum in C?
02:01:49 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\0-\/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///-/\\\\///0/1//1/\*/++.0.1
02:01:49 <EgoBot> 1/++01,,==0101001001010010100100101001001
02:02:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
02:02:58 -!- puzzlet has joined.
02:03:08 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\0-\/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.//++.0.1
02:03:09 <EgoBot> ++01-010-01001-01001010-0100101001001
02:04:44 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\0-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.//++
02:04:57 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.//++
02:06:05 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/\//++
02:06:18 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/\/\//++
02:06:32 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/=/++
02:06:57 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/=/++.1
02:07:04 <coppro> What are you trying to do?
02:08:16 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/\\\\/++.1
02:08:30 <oerjan> !slashes /*/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//****/.///+\+///-/\\\//++.1
02:09:25 <oerjan> !slashes /!/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//!!!!/.///+\+///-/\\\///0/1//1/*/++.1
02:09:51 <oerjan> !slashes /!/\/.\\0\/,\\,0,\\,1\/\/.\\1\/,\\,0\/\/,\\,\/.\/\/+\\+\/=\\=.\\1-\/\/=\\=\/+\\+\//!!!!!!!!!!/.///+\+///-/\\\///0/1//1/*/++.1
02:09:51 <EgoBot> */*/**/***/*****/********/*************/*********************/**********************************/*******************************************************/*****************************************************************************************
02:13:03 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: What's the least-overhead SHA-1 library.
02:13:36 <GregorR> (I want to toss one into something I'm writing, without also including MD5, SHA-bleh, MD4, MD-insecure, ...)
02:14:29 <GregorR> Yeah, that's what I ended up doing :P
02:25:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Success).
02:26:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
02:33:46 <oerjan> although we don't know how to do infinite loops in ///, it does seem like it is much easier to do computations involving bounded looping
02:36:34 <oerjan> unless there are other obstacles, that should be enough to allow the equivalent of primitive recursion
02:38:30 <GregorR> I'm making a programming language that is literally impossible to program in.
02:39:23 <coppro> astrosteve: 700zm means that a spellbook is either cancellation or
02:39:33 <coppro> http://dangermouse.net/esoteric/
02:42:13 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
02:43:27 -!- Slereah has joined.
02:45:46 <kerlo> You know, I'm not sure that even in real life I could talk the way ehird types. I don't speak in series of phrases; I say entire sentences at once.
02:45:58 <kerlo> Or maybe not. You know how unreliable introspection is.
02:46:21 <oerjan> not at all, _my_ introspection is utterly flawless.
02:49:59 <kerlo> So you're a self-improving artificial intelligence.
02:50:15 * kerlo locks oerjan in a Yudkowsky Box and submerges him under ten feet of seawater.
02:50:35 <kerlo> Hmm, this won't block sound all that well.
02:51:15 <kerlo> Sorry. I'm not allowed to let you out until this emergency meeting I've called concludes that it's safe to do so.
02:51:36 <kerlo> Everything will be very expeditious; you should be on dry land within 15 minutes if everything goes well.
02:53:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
02:53:47 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
03:02:27 <Sgeo> GregorR, details?
03:02:36 <GregorR> Sgeo: I'm putting it up on the wiki now.
03:06:31 <GregorR> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ShaFuck
03:07:02 <GregorR> It's so stupid it's stupid! :P
03:08:08 <Sgeo> Anyone want to bruteforce a Hello world?
03:08:22 <Sgeo> Actually, some programs might not even be writable in that
03:08:35 <kerlo> Is SHA-1 160 bits?
03:08:56 <GregorR> Sgeo: Oh, because the SHA-1 sums of 1024 bytes may or may not cover every possibility, right.
03:09:08 <GregorR> Sgeo: I chose such a large number in hopes that it would be "enough" *shrugs*
03:09:38 <Sgeo> A lot of sha-1 sums might result in code that would be valid if it were not for comments
03:09:45 <Sgeo> Easing the comment restriction might help
03:10:29 <GregorR> Easing the comment restriction would make it trivial.
03:10:35 <GregorR> You would just have to find eight sequences.
03:16:00 <GregorR> oerjan: Yes, that IS an interesting statistic :P
03:16:31 <oerjan> so, something like several million years to find a single legal program with a current CPU?
03:16:44 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:17:21 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
03:17:47 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:18:22 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
03:19:58 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
03:20:32 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
03:28:47 <GregorR> Would it be easier if I interpreted every 3 bits as a BF operation? That way everything would hash to valid BF, and it would be a problem of finding isomorphic BF ... which is probably still totally impossible :P
03:31:41 <GregorR> http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/ShaFuck
03:32:12 <oerjan> at least it should then be possible to find actually syntactically correct programs
03:33:00 <GregorR> oerjan: Well, then it would be /im/possible to find /non/-syntactically-correct programs :P
03:33:13 <oerjan> you still have to match []
03:33:55 <GregorR> Poor, deluded bsmntbombdood :P
03:34:12 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: as currently written, the main problem is the comment prohibition
03:34:57 <GregorR> There are other ways of nopping, but even they would be nearly impossible to find.
03:35:16 <oerjan> the problem is it takes millions of years to find a program whose SHA-1 contains only bf commands
03:35:35 <GregorR> Only (8/256)^20 sequences are valid /at all/. Even finding one that's valid would take millenia.
03:36:08 <oerjan> thus the new 3 bit suggestion
03:36:28 <GregorR> Which would still be nigh-on impossible, because those nopping isomorphisms are still pretty darn rare :P
03:36:58 <bsmntbombdood> i have a feeling you will be able to get it down to ~60 bits of complexity per block
03:37:10 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Feel free :P
03:37:25 <bsmntbombdood> so you will be able to produce shafuck at a rate of like 1 instruction per week
03:37:34 <oerjan> i think any program which contains [] has a hard time being a nop
03:38:58 <oerjan> now 20 bytes = 160 bits, which isn't divisible by 3
03:39:39 <oerjan> but discarding one bit, 53 commands
03:39:59 <GregorR> Right, yes, discarding the last bit.
03:40:11 <GregorR> Mind you, I didn't agree to that, I'm just presenting it as a thought experiment :P
03:40:43 <oerjan> (6/8)^53 ~ 2.4e-7, so it's not that hard to find something not containing []
03:40:58 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: it would probably be more interesting to use something like md5 or even md4
03:41:13 <GregorR> More interesting as in more possible to write.
03:41:21 <GregorR> But I wasn't aiming for something that could actually be written :P
03:41:55 <oerjan> hm you probably want to avoid ., as well, for most building blocks
03:42:37 <GregorR> It's a PITA to make nops out of +-<>, it's almost impossible to make nops out of .,[]
03:42:46 <bsmntbombdood> so how many different combinations of 21 +'s and 21 -'s are there?
03:42:49 <GregorR> (Well, it is impossible to make nops out of ,.)
03:43:17 <oerjan> with +-<> the whole becomes a kind of vector problem
03:43:46 <oerjan> add something to a number of cells, shift some amount
03:44:04 <oerjan> two with opposite shifts can nullify
03:44:40 <oerjan> and then linear algebra to find something which +- only one cell
03:45:02 <oerjan> which should be possible with enough of those
03:45:11 <oerjan> um, this is not making it complicated
03:45:33 <GregorR> oerjan: Actually it is, you can just /run it/ to see what it modifies :P
03:45:49 <oerjan> er i'm not talking about single programs
03:46:08 <oerjan> i'm talking about using linear algebra to combine blocks into something with a simpler effect
03:46:09 <GregorR> I thought you wanted them to be clean /within/ a single chunk.
03:46:52 <bsmntbombdood> how many combinations of 21 +'s and 21 -'s are there?
03:47:10 <GregorR> Oh, I thought that was rhetorical.
03:47:12 <oerjan> if you don't have <> then those cancel, you know
03:47:50 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: no, given that you have an easy upper bound for complexity
03:48:05 <oerjan> 42 over 21, or 42!/(21!*21!) iirc
03:48:07 <GregorR> Something like 21! I'd guess, but I don't know.
03:48:16 <GregorR> Apparently oerjan knows :P
03:49:00 <oerjan> over is not division, but binomial coefficient
03:51:39 <oerjan> and given control over +-<>, you can probably find a program that contains only those plus a single .,[ or ]
03:52:23 <oerjan> so i think this might be doable
03:56:04 <oerjan> (4^52 * 53)/(8^53) ~ 1.47e-15, so that is somehow slightly easier than a pure +-<> program - this cannot be right
03:59:37 <GregorR> I think the long story short is "you're screwed"
04:01:03 <oerjan> well that is a bit of programs to search for
04:03:31 <GregorR> That's 680,272,108,843,537 sequences.
04:04:08 <GregorR> That's only 7 days at 1 BILLION sequences per second :P
04:04:35 <GregorR> At a more reasonable 1 million sequences per second, that's 22 years.
04:05:04 <bsmntbombdood> AND you only have to do it 8 times, and you can then just compose blocks
04:05:46 <oerjan> i'm not sure about that 8 times
04:06:01 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: you need to add some sort of chaining of blocks to prevent that
04:06:31 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Note that this concept is only pseudotractable IF I make it use 3-bit operations, which I'm not going to.
04:06:39 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: With 8-bit operations, it's not even remotely tractable.
04:07:15 <GregorR> If I did allow comments, it would be trivial! The whole idea is for it to be IMPOSSIBLE :P
04:07:32 <oerjan> alas, if you allow comments it becomes trivial yeah
04:08:35 <oerjan> (248^19 * 20)/(256^20) ~ 0.042
04:08:52 <oerjan> that's to search for something equivalent to a single command
04:09:02 <bsmntbombdood> much more interesting just to require an immense, but practical computational load to write
04:09:39 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: And you think that the 3-bit variety is immense but practical?
04:09:50 <oerjan> now if you used 3 bits plus chaining, it might become just about right?
04:10:23 <bsmntbombdood> GregorR: so the same block has a different meaning depending on where you put it
04:10:37 <oerjan> i assume it means so that you cannot append found blocks easily
04:10:54 <GregorR> And I would do that by ...?
04:11:16 <bsmntbombdood> if you have a block that hashes to '+nopnopnopnop...', '-nopnopnopp...' etc, you can just put them together without any work
04:11:45 <GregorR> bsmntbombdood: Yeah, but I still find it EXTREMELY unlikely that you'll ever find those :P
04:12:07 <coppro> you can't find such a block
04:12:12 <coppro> every nop in BF takes two operations
04:12:41 <GregorR> coppro: We've already been over that, they're claiming it's (just barely) tractable, I'm not convinced.
04:13:23 <GregorR> (Right, yes, the 3-bit version)
04:13:41 <coppro> well, actually, you could get an odd-numbered nop, but it will erase some part of the memory
04:13:55 <GregorR> How about this: The hash of each 1024-byte block is taken to be the hash of everything in the file up to and including that block?
04:14:44 <GregorR> If I made it 4-bit, with the fourth bit allowing comments, that would be waaaaaaaaaay too easy, right?
04:15:20 <bsmntbombdood> do that and only use 60 or so bits of the hash, and you have system that trivial to interpret but very hard (but still possible) to write
04:16:16 <GregorR> Bleh, the whole joy was that it was just plain impossible to write X-P
04:17:10 <oerjan> maybe if the fourth bit _disallowed_ comments instead?
04:17:47 <GregorR> Well, I'm going to sleep one way or another.
04:24:23 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
04:25:10 -!- Slereah has joined.
04:44:07 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:44:27 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:44:34 -!- puzzlet has joined.
04:49:32 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
05:29:57 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
06:05:08 <kerlo> So, about that sonic computer.
06:05:28 <pikhq> A computer that uses Sonic for computation?
06:05:42 <coppro> g'night... time to think up a new precedence system for Agora
06:05:56 <pikhq> coppro: No precedence.
06:06:10 <kerlo> No, a computer that uses sound for computation.
06:06:13 <pikhq> (I'm not sure what the game state would devolve to after that)
06:06:27 <coppro> lots and lots of Paradox wins, I expect
06:06:59 <pikhq> Oh, I'd get Canada to win by paradox somehow.
06:07:18 <coppro> Am I a member of Canada's basis?
06:07:50 * coppro looks up the Wikipedia article on phonons... time to boggle
06:07:50 <pikhq> Then yes, you are.
06:08:03 <pikhq> Moot point unless you can get Canada to join Agora, though.
06:08:09 * kerlo ponders /// code to escape stuff
06:08:29 <kerlo> Replace / and \ with a and b, replace a and b with \/ and \\.
06:08:51 <kerlo> I guess you'll want to have guards as well.
06:10:03 <kerlo> !slashes /#\//a//#\\/b//a/\///b/\\//#//it's #/#/#\#\
06:10:20 <coppro> pikhq: it's not required to be a player to win
06:10:30 <coppro> though getting Canada to be a person would be tough
06:10:48 <kerlo> !slashes /#\//a/d/#\\/b/d/a/\//d/b/\\/d/#//it's #/#/#\#\
06:10:55 <pikhq> Actually, we could probably get the definition of "player" changed.
06:11:16 <pikhq> It's already a non-first-class person, right?
06:12:47 <kerlo> !slashes /##\//a/d/##\\/b/d/a/\//d/b/\\/d/#//it's ##/##/##\##\
06:16:00 <kerlo> !slashes /##\//a/d/##\\/b/d/a/\//d/b/\\/d/#//it's ##/##/##\##\ abba
06:31:08 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
06:42:05 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection).
06:43:35 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
07:01:43 -!- puzzlet has joined.
07:40:18 <fizzie> Sonic computers reminded me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay_line_memory#Acoustic_delay_lines which are an awesome idea... I mean, just compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mercury_memory.jpg with a boring DIMM memory chip.
07:49:33 -!- WangZeDong has joined.
07:51:49 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:06:55 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
08:33:04 -!- jix has joined.
08:46:34 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
08:48:43 -!- puzzlet has joined.
08:59:30 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
09:06:34 -!- Slereah has joined.
09:18:40 -!- WangZeDong has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
09:29:48 <mtve> http://arxiv.org/abs/0905.0740
09:56:53 <Deewiant> http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html
10:04:22 -!- M0ny has joined.
10:08:20 <M0ny> spèce de scélérat
10:08:39 <mtve> Deewiant: rotfl
10:08:58 <M0ny> c'est pas vrai !
10:38:13 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection).
10:39:35 -!- psygnisfive has joined.
10:43:53 <GregorR> <psygnisfive> i just got back from Star Trek
10:44:02 <GregorR> psygnisfive: And is it as godawful as the commercials make it out to be?
10:44:15 <GregorR> I figured it couldn't be that bad.
10:44:26 <psygnisfive> and it takes place in an alternate universe
10:44:47 <psygnisfive> the vision of the star trek universe is quite nice
10:50:36 -!- impomatic has joined.
10:50:57 <impomatic> Anyone know which was the first 2D programming language?
10:51:17 <mtve> befunge i suppose
10:56:11 <impomatic> Strange that Befunge wasn't mentioned on usenet until 1996
10:57:17 <Deewiant> Which probably saw most of the discussion
10:58:03 <mtve> it was invented in 1996
10:58:17 <Deewiant> "Later the Befunge Mailing List evolved into the Esoteric Topics Mailing List, and the word began to be used to describe this kind of language. "
10:58:30 <Deewiant> -- http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language
10:59:54 <Deewiant> http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/ goes only as far back as 2001
11:01:08 <Deewiant> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=funge-list has a tiny amount of stuff
11:01:56 <impomatic> I just wanted to check if Corelife (April 1993) was predated by any other 2D languages.
11:02:05 <fizzie> Like the wiki puts it: "Befunge was preceded in 1991 by a similar but less featureful language Biota, which was designed for experiments in self-reproduction. It was followed soon after, in 1994, by another similar language, Orthagonal, the design of which was spurred by a discussion on alt.folklore.computers."
11:02:56 <impomatic> So it was predated by Biota and possibly Befunge, depending on the month Befunge was released.
11:03:33 <fizzie> "Original document September, 1993" says the Befunge-93 spec in Catseye.
11:05:37 <Slereah> Well, that's pretty recent then
11:05:38 <Deewiant> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Calamari has a broken link to a partial archive of the befunge mailing list
11:05:45 <Slereah> Because this september is still going on
11:06:40 <mtve> esolangs archives should be on the web.
11:08:09 <impomatic> So I guess Corelife was the second 2D programming language :-)
11:08:14 <Deewiant> There's the forum, of course, but that's recent: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/forum/subback.html
11:08:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: The broken link is (was?) a pkzipfixed former broken zip; it was talked here on http://tunes.org/~nef//logs/esoteric/05.11.17 -- I guess it's gone dead again.
11:08:53 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yes, that's how I found it.
11:09:15 <mtve> well, i can upload those maillist archives, if somebody need them.
11:09:17 <Deewiant> I guess we can poke calamari about it if he shows up.
11:09:59 <mtve> well, i was a subscriber since almost the begining :)
11:10:34 <mtve> ok, noted, will do it in a few days.
11:10:52 <Deewiant> I'd rather have it on more machines than just yours, it'd be a shame to lose them to a drive crash or something ;-)
11:12:08 <mtve> yep, a bitrot becomes a real problem. i can't find many interesting things on the web which were there, i'm sure.
11:12:31 <fizzie> Heh, http://esoteric.sange.fi/archive/current is a collection of spam. :p
11:12:52 <Deewiant> Actually hmm, I've got some FBBI patches which are older than the stuff on sange.fi, I wonder where I got them from
11:12:55 <fizzie> Lots of offers for millions of dollars.
11:13:36 <Deewiant> Scratch that, they were from 2003, not the 2000 I thought.
11:13:42 <mtve> most of interesting things are already on the wiki, but archives do have their value.
11:14:15 <GregorR> Archives give you a linear view of history, wikis give you a flat view of the current state.
11:14:40 <Deewiant> fizzie: Looks like both 2006 and 2007 are also all spam.
11:14:52 <GregorR> WTF COMMERCIAL!! Why is there a commercial for Emerald Nuts that implies a grizzly death of the three main characters shortly after the commercial ends >_<
11:15:23 <impomatic> I've been archiving stuff I find interesting so it isn't lost forever.
11:20:19 <GregorR> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ShaFuck
12:03:05 -!- MizardX has quit ("Proclamation of invalidity!").
12:09:36 <Deewiant> Aw, mooz's Befunge pages are gone
12:12:15 <Deewiant> But no pics/downloads, of course
12:13:06 <impomatic> Hmmm... some pages have pics / zips archived too.
12:14:07 <Deewiant> mtve: Exactly how slow is http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/code/eso/bef/chess/ supposed to be? (Or, what interpreter can run it)
12:14:37 <mtve> pretty fast, any sane interpreter should run it well.
12:15:01 <mtve> less then a second to response afair
12:15:09 <Deewiant> CCBI and FBBI are both going at 45 minutes on the first move, tkbf93 segfaulted :-P
12:15:19 <Deewiant> I don't have other -93 interpreters.
12:15:38 <fizzie> I think I asked mooz about that stuff, and he said he has an archive in some non-public place.
12:15:42 <mtve> eh, maybe i forgot something :) i have my own interpreter somewhere near to that
12:16:34 <mtve> actually a link from that page
12:16:49 <Deewiant> Okay, the C one offers fast response
12:16:53 <Deewiant> Let's see how it breaks the standard ;-)
12:17:05 -!- MizardX has joined.
12:17:13 <mtve> i was trying to write it as strict as possible afair
12:18:24 <Deewiant> Wonder what's going on... will have to look into this at some point
12:18:29 -!- Judofyr has joined.
12:34:32 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
12:34:52 <Deewiant> ehird: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_r600_700_guide, usable 3D for ATIs "should be just a matter of weeks"
13:12:44 -!- oklopol has joined.
13:12:58 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
13:13:06 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokkokokokokokokokokokokokoko
13:13:12 <oklopol> okokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokokoko
13:14:10 -!- MizardX- has joined.
13:16:29 -!- MizardX has quit (Nick collision from services.).
13:16:31 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX.
13:20:29 <fizzie> I guess we did the kokko-thing here already, though.
13:21:25 <fungot> koko kokkooko kokkoko kokkoo kokko kokkokokkookkokkokoo
13:21:38 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
13:21:42 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
13:22:10 <fungot> koko kokko oko kokko ko kokko o kokko kokko kokko okko kko ko o
13:22:18 <fizzie> There were those two functions of dubious usefulness.
13:22:21 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
13:22:40 <fizzie> That's pretty much the same except with a space added between repetitions.
13:22:48 <oklopol> using syntax elements from both C++ and Haskell feels a bit weird.
13:23:21 <oklopol> i just love how C++ uses << and >> for streams
13:23:26 <oklopol> i guess not strictly syntax thing
13:23:36 <fizzie> Bitshift the output stream, yes.
13:25:17 <oklopol> well true, i guess "hello world" >> cout would be more logical, because right argument tells how much ~ where to shift
13:25:37 <oklopol> (how much) ~ (where), that is
13:26:38 <oklopol> but cin >> variable makes sense at least
13:26:58 <oklopol> anyway strongly typed operators are a pretty stupid idea anyway
13:27:17 <fizzie> I don't suppose the streams overload <<= and >>= with something fancy?
13:27:43 <oklopol> i doubt it, not that i've checked
13:28:11 <oklopol> actually << and >> already have those semantics
13:28:21 <oklopol> so they could just be the same thing
13:29:11 <fizzie> Yes. I don't think they are, though.
13:30:29 <oklopol> i'm not sure why they would be
13:32:57 <fizzie> ^choo ososo soso oso so o
13:32:57 <fungot> ososo soso oso so o soso soso oso so o oso soso oso so o so soso oso so o o soso oso so o soso oso so o soso oso so o oso oso so o so oso so o o oso so o oso so o oso so o so so o o so o so o so o o o o ...
13:37:00 <oklopol> if there was a reverse choo, you could say "o so", and your "meaningful" would be meaningful
13:37:47 <Deewiant> ^cho >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
13:37:47 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>],[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>][>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>],]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>][<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]]>[[.>]<[ ...
13:38:45 <oklopol> Deewiant: what does that do
13:39:12 <Deewiant> I don't know about fungot's one
13:39:13 <fungot> Deewiant: meet is simple enough.) indent all of the tail of the list. :p
13:39:27 <Deewiant> The one I gave to ^cho is cho's source
13:39:51 <fizzie> It indents all of the tail of the list, I guess.
13:39:51 <oklopol> i know it's cho's source, i just saw it
13:39:57 <fizzie> I'm sure fungot knows what it's speaking of.
13:39:58 <fungot> fizzie: on dit fnord, en kerro miten, mutta liittyy fnord ja fnord ilman siihen fnord fnord fnord"
13:40:14 <fizzie> fungot: Stop with the Finnish gibberish.
13:40:14 <fungot> fizzie: nice job on ooe on c.l.s. btw this is called " robotron"
13:40:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp
13:40:40 <fizzie> That's from #douglasadams@ircnet; we have occasionally lapsed into Finnish there.
13:41:51 <fungot> Deewiant: but i don't really know enough about s48's internals to see where i can
13:42:15 <fizzie> To fnord a fnord you need intimate knowledge of s48's internals.
13:43:01 <fungot> Deewiant: i'll go going to work on srfi 44 seems too complicated for too little gain.
13:43:19 <fungot> Deewiant: pretty much. although regular continuations don't do fnord? ( although i find sdl a bit distasteful. but not enough to actually volunteer to write it
13:43:30 <fizzie> I really should make it take the trailing parts of the comment it's replying to as a context, but that would mean I'd have to map back from strings to tokens in a reasonable time.
13:52:06 -!- tombom has joined.
13:55:24 -!- jix has quit ("bye").
13:58:06 -!- impomatic has left (?).
14:33:25 -!- jix has joined.
14:35:36 -!- okloduk has joined.
14:48:47 <fungot> >,[>,]<[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
14:48:55 <fungot> >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>]
14:49:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, you don't turn [-] into set 0?
14:50:20 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I think esotope-bfc needs a plugin architecture! ;P
14:50:38 <AnMaster> that way you could easily write new optimisations, possibly in some DSL.
14:51:23 <fizzie> No. I only run-length-encode consecutive <>+- (and there's that bug). I don't have a "set" instruction in the bytecode, either, although I guess I could easily have one. Should probably fix at least the bug.
14:52:12 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm not saying you should implement esotope-bfc in befunge. Just that [-] is so common and easy to do
14:52:29 <AnMaster> possibly [-]+ into set 1 and such
14:52:59 * AnMaster thinks he should write a semi-optimising one in scheme. Just doing the basic stuff.
14:53:19 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, why the name "esotope"?
14:55:00 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, by the way, I have some other ideas: What if some code snippet is reused a lot. Maybe add an "size optimising" option that tries to "factor out" common code into separate functions
14:55:18 <AnMaster> if the code snippet is long enough that is
14:55:39 -!- dbc has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net).
14:55:50 <AnMaster> this also opens the questions of intrinsics in an extended mode of course. But maybe that is a bad idea...
14:56:15 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:56:23 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection reset by peer).
14:57:02 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
15:03:31 -!- tombom has quit.
15:03:55 -!- okloduk has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
15:10:32 -!- dbc has joined.
15:15:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do you think about a DSL like this for an optimising bf compiler:
15:15:45 <AnMaster> match: { loop: { '-', move : (store myvar count), '+', move: (is_equal? -myvar count) } } replace: { set: { offset: (var myvar), value: {get_cell 0}}, set: { offset: 0, value: 0}}
15:16:00 <AnMaster> to match [->>>+<<<] into a "move and set old to 0"
15:16:59 <AnMaster> (like: the syntax there is a horrible mix of python dicts and scheme)
15:19:35 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Thanks to mtve, some old messages from the Befunge mailing list, includes info on -96 and -97: http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/tmp/bef_maillist_0_520.txt
15:20:44 <Deewiant> I asked him about it and he said it saves stuff forever :-P
15:20:53 <Deewiant> But more copies is always a good thing :-)
15:21:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does it contain 97 versikn?
15:21:59 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It has messages from -96 and -97 where they discuss Befunge.
15:22:05 <Deewiant> And the -96 and -97 standards.
15:22:19 <Deewiant> Probably not since the last message is from June.
15:22:26 <Deewiant> I don't even know if -97 ever had a finalized spec.
15:22:49 <Deewiant> But that also has stuff on BeGlad and the like, which is interesting.
15:22:50 <AnMaster> "I also got most of Visual Befunge for Windows actually working."
15:22:56 <Deewiant> impomatic might be interested in that stuff, too.
15:23:11 <AnMaster> did he implement some interpreter?
15:23:19 <Deewiant> No, but it's similar to Core Wars.
15:23:34 <Deewiant> I haven't read any of that yet.
15:23:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, does it explain the team id thing?
15:23:48 <Deewiant> That was the first thing I grepped for, actually :-)
15:23:59 <Deewiant> Maybe it does, just not under that name
15:24:03 <Deewiant> Like said, I haven't read any of it.
15:24:42 <Deewiant> Chronefunge: Subject-singularity Time-Travel Befunge!
15:24:48 <Deewiant> Chris Pressey's idea, originally.
15:24:57 <AnMaster> "PS. Competition: smallest self-listing prog (but not f****n' emptiness)"
15:26:49 <Deewiant> http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/code/eso/bef/chess/
15:27:14 <Deewiant> I was wondering why FBBI and CCBI both infinite-loop on it but his Bef93 interp doesn't
15:27:37 <AnMaster> Deewiant, might be due to reflecting on something in 98?
15:27:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: In 93 compatibility mode, of course :-P
15:28:56 <Deewiant> Haven't looked into it in detail yet.
15:31:15 <Deewiant> In Befunge-96 all IPs had the same stack
15:31:47 <Deewiant> g and p were deprecated, that's interesting
15:40:45 <AnMaster> Real life needs lazy evaluation...
15:41:18 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Visual Befunge - http://members.home.nl/wimrijnders/bef.htm
15:42:42 <Deewiant> "I just thought of something: Are you sure that you want to have longs as
15:42:42 <Deewiant> the coordinates? I can't imagine anyone having a befunge program more than
15:42:48 <AnMaster> I don't have any vm set up atm. So testing it will be highly messy
15:42:54 <fungot> Deewiant: that pesky exponential growth!! i'm having too much fun with this guy
15:43:27 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes the ul stack... in funge-space
15:43:41 <Deewiant> Ah, it's stored in Funge-Space?
15:44:00 <AnMaster> and it grows into negative funge-space
15:44:13 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure what I set the ^ul stack limit to, it might go below -32768.
15:45:03 <fizzie> Other than that I don't use many far-off coordinates. The ^bf tape is at some row, columns [0, 999] or something equally small.
15:46:32 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemons delinterp fyb help info kill userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
15:46:43 <EgoBot> 39 +++++++++++[>+++++++++>+>><<<<-]>--.>-. [22]
15:46:48 <EgoBot> 39 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.>. [95]
15:46:55 <AnMaster> surely that could be much shorter?
15:47:05 <EgoBot> 39 ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+>><<<<-]>---.>. [18]
15:47:14 <AnMaster> apart from the >><< bit I mean
15:47:23 <EgoBot> 39 ++++++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.>--. [35]
15:47:27 <EgoBot> 35 ++++++++[>++++++++>+>><<<<-]>+.>++. [59]
15:47:32 <EgoBot> 35 +++++++++++[>++++++>+>><<<<-]>-.>-. [33]
15:48:36 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "Get and Put Discouraged in favor of Get-Left, Get-Right, Put-Left and Put-Right"
15:48:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Yes, as I said, g and p deprecated.
15:48:59 <AnMaster> but you didn't say anything about TOYS
15:49:06 <Deewiant> And yes, "get left/right hand" are stated to have been based on get-left / get-right in Befunge-96.
15:49:27 <Deewiant> They may or may not be the exact same commands.
15:49:34 <AnMaster> One-shot Stringmode - Looks useful. <-- is this ' I wonder...
15:49:51 -!- asiekierka has joined.
15:49:57 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Grep for 'Edit #2 - Dec 19 1996 Chris Pressey, Cat's-Eye Technologies.
15:50:01 <Deewiant> AnMaster: You'll find a Befunge-96 spec.
15:50:04 <asiekierka> but this time it should be dead for good
15:50:12 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Includes descriptions of directives.
15:50:15 <asiekierka> and proceeding with safety to the remaining ones
15:50:44 <AnMaster> asiekierka, clean reinstall duh
15:50:47 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Also those instructions. And yes, ' is "One-Shot Stringmode".
15:50:59 <asiekierka> I would call it "half-clean" reinstall
15:51:29 <AnMaster> asiekierka, full format was what I meant
15:51:43 <AnMaster> only keep plain text files, stuff you can manually inspect
15:51:57 <asiekierka> too much stuff on my hard disk to sort them
15:52:22 <asiekierka> XP either offers omnipotent admin or cantdoanything guest
15:52:56 <AnMaster> err. I'm pretty sure it has a mode in between called "normal user" or such, instead of "limited user"
15:53:14 <AnMaster> there was that "power user" too
15:53:15 <asiekierka> well, on XP SP2 there's either "Admin user" or "Normal/Limited user"
15:53:28 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Grep for "Edit #3", it's from 1996-12-31 and is the final Befunge-96 spec :-)
15:53:41 <Deewiant> I've FINALIZED the Befunge-96 spec (because, uh... it's about 2 hours away
15:53:41 <Deewiant> from 1997... and anything after that would have to be called "Befunge-97".
15:53:59 <asiekierka> actually, XP says that there's either "Computer Administrator" mode (Admin mode basically) or "Limited mode"
15:54:05 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I'm 100% sure "power user" mode
15:54:35 <AnMaster> check the user management thing found in one of them *.msc files
15:54:49 <asiekierka> so either Power User or Can't-do-Anything-Useful-Other-Than-Use-Apps-Dammit User
15:54:52 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Hahaha, holistic deviancy <-- in 96 draft?
15:55:52 <Deewiant> I think -93 came "out of the blue" when Chris released it.
15:56:36 <asiekierka> Also, is there any esoteric language that's "top at the moment" here right now?
15:56:43 <AnMaster> ; that was a compiler directive to include another .bf source
15:56:51 <Deewiant> Chris sez "I don't think there will be any more major changes" -- 1997-01-23
15:57:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, are you going to add a 96 compat mode to ccbi?
15:57:25 <Deewiant> Haven't looked at that in enough detail to be able to say if it is :-)
15:57:28 <asiekierka> Also, is there a tutorial on the mess of commands that's called Be(a)funge?
15:57:34 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> Maybe, if it's simple to do. <-- hey, that's my comment
15:57:51 <AnMaster> asiekierka, what the hell is the "(a)" there for
15:58:27 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you put the "(a)" there. What did you mean with it
15:59:58 <AnMaster> "stack by a particular extentible null command"
16:00:06 <AnMaster> not sure what an "extentible null command" is yet
16:00:14 <AnMaster> but sound like one not defined by the spec?
16:00:35 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:00:51 <asiekierka> Also, I want to implement BF for the C64
16:01:03 <AnMaster> I assume it was you being confused then
16:01:13 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
16:01:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I'm not so sure, but I suspect 98 could be done.
16:01:17 <Deewiant> The C64 doesn't have enough memory for 96.
16:01:34 <AnMaster> Deewiant, um, limited memory of course
16:01:43 <AnMaster> if you remove the 32 bit max it works
16:01:45 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Whatever you assume, I added (a) to make a sentence that I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT MEANS
16:02:11 <asiekierka> doh, there is already a BF interpreter for the C64
16:02:13 <Deewiant> You lose fingerprints without 32, though.
16:02:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually you could do it
16:02:30 <AnMaster> since funge-space would be sparse anyway
16:02:34 <asiekierka> This is a birthday demo for Martin Wendt, a true C64 fanatic. It's a multicolour brainfuck interpreter, using the screen RAM for data and code, meaning that you see the code execute and modify itself!
16:02:37 <AnMaster> you just will get OOM rather fast
16:02:48 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you can manually do 32-bit numbers with 8 bit ones
16:03:19 <Deewiant> Hmm, 80*25 = 2000 * sizeof bytes for a Befunge-93-sized program
16:03:40 <asiekierka> The C64 with BASIC FEATURES ON has ~38911 bytes of free memory
16:03:52 <asiekierka> BASIC FEATURES == everything BASIC offers
16:04:02 <asiekierka> And if you turn BASIC off you get even more memory
16:04:14 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is an OS with a webserver and web browser for C64
16:04:23 <AnMaster> I don't think it is impossible
16:04:35 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Where to download it because I am wondering since forever
16:05:00 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Well, i don't even need it so nah
16:05:14 <AnMaster> I don't really care a lot about C64
16:05:28 <AnMaster> to me it is history, and not very interesting history
16:07:25 <asiekierka> I also own an Amiga but I don't own hardware to transmit data between PC and Amiga
16:09:17 <asiekierka> Deewiant: DIdn't you work on a DOBELA interpreter?
16:09:25 <AnMaster> asiekierka, he finished it iirc
16:11:08 <asiekierka> Augh, not only for Linux only, but also 64-bit
16:11:41 <asiekierka> ...did I use a very old meme just about now?
16:13:33 <AnMaster> asiekierka, but why can't you test it
16:14:18 <AnMaster> asiekierka, you could install qemu and emulate 64-bit in case you only have a 32-bit CPU
16:14:20 <asiekierka> and I'm not sure if my Core 2 Quad is 64-bit
16:14:37 <AnMaster> asiekierka, core 2 quad is most likely 64-bit
16:14:41 <asiekierka> I already wasted 3 hours today installing XP
16:14:54 <AnMaster> asiekierka, agreed. installing windows is wasting time
16:15:03 <AnMaster> asiekierka, yes... that was what I said
16:15:11 <asiekierka> and NO WAI is from the same meme as O RLY and YA RLY, thought that you should know
16:16:04 <AnMaster> asiekierka, last time I checked installing linux usually took way less
16:16:12 <ehird> 16:14 asiekierka: Core 2 Quad IS an intel CPU, doh
16:16:15 <AnMaster> something like, uh, 30 minutes?
16:16:56 <AnMaster> ehird, not even in UK is it "morning" now
16:17:09 <ehird> AnMaster: ehird time is objectively right.
16:17:11 <ehird> 11:34 Deewiant: ehird: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_r600_700_guide, usable 3D for ATIs "should be just a matter of weeks"
16:17:26 <ehird> open source hardware specifications are the best kind of porn!
16:17:35 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Last time I checked installing my favourite distro of Linux usually took about the same time
16:18:15 <AnMaster> asiekierka, which distro is that...
16:18:21 <ehird> AnMaster: probably pclinuxos or something xD
16:18:28 <AnMaster> asiekierka, and why aren't you dual booting then already
16:18:42 <ehird> It's like Fedora except crappier!
16:18:53 <AnMaster> actually I used suse lots of years ago. And ehird's summary was perfect
16:19:08 <asiekierka> I am used to it and I don't want to waste time to learn a bunch of different stuff
16:19:09 <AnMaster> I went back to slackware after
16:19:52 <ehird> i'm having a bit of cognitive dissonance here
16:20:01 <ehird> my brain knows I shouldn't like Arch
16:20:05 <ehird> but my mind knows I like it
16:20:11 <Deewiant> asiekierka: It might work on BSDs too :-P
16:20:13 <ehird> i'm pretty sure it's dangerous to hav ethem out of sync
16:21:06 <Deewiant> In fact, it not only might but should work on BSDs and Solaris, though I haven't tested it
16:21:07 <ehird> 14:42 Deewiant: "I just thought of something: Are you sure that you want to have longs as
16:21:07 <ehird> 14:42 Deewiant: the coordinates? I can't imagine anyone having a befunge program more than
16:21:09 <ehird> 14:42 Deewiant: 65000 x 65000."
16:21:15 <ehird> Did we find the 96/97 specs?
16:21:29 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. The mind must be allowed to win, or you risk going mad. And not a good kind of mad (like esolang crazy/mad), but the gibbering lunatic kind of mad.
16:21:35 <Deewiant> ehird: 2009-05-08 17:19:35 ( Deewiant) AnMaster: Thanks to mtve, some old messages from the Befunge mailing list, includes info on -96 and -97: http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/tmp/bef_maillist_0_520.txt
16:21:53 <ehird> AnMaster: OTOH, I think that consciousness and the mind is merely a byproduct of the brain's process.
16:22:01 <ehird> So the mind thinking something the brain doesn't might cause a metaphysical quantum rip ;-)
16:22:12 <AnMaster> ehird, so quickly make the brain think the same
16:22:22 <Deewiant> mtve said he's digging up more stuff so with any luck we'll have the full archives online sooner or later.
16:22:23 <ehird> how? I'm the mind, I don't have control over it
16:23:46 <AnMaster> The h "Holistic Deviancy" command pops a value off the stack and uses it as the
16:23:46 <AnMaster> Holistic Deviancy value for the current program counter (and ONLY the current
16:23:46 <AnMaster> PC), throughout the entire program.
16:23:53 <AnMaster> what exactly is "Holistic Deviancy value"
16:23:56 <ehird> "Forgive me, I've taken the drastic step of subscribing all of you to this
16:23:56 <ehird> list, as you've been kind enough to take some interest in Befunge. "
16:24:00 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Read the next paragraph.
16:24:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, like storage offset, except it offsets the value instead of position?
16:24:50 <Deewiant> It wasn't a high-volume list when only that message was there, so I don't think it's very not-nice.
16:25:46 <Deewiant> Storage offset only applies to commands that mess with funge-space; that, as I understand it, applies to execution as well.
16:26:45 <AnMaster> (There is no reflect 180 degree
16:26:45 <AnMaster> operator; but one can be simulated with T@.)
16:27:20 <ehird> Lol, it's fun watching people come up with inferior keyboard alternatives to a very mouse operation (clicking links)
16:27:24 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err won't the G turn into a H by then?
16:27:32 <AnMaster> or does it only affect fetches and such?
16:27:46 <Deewiant> Which is exactly what I intended.
16:28:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: Except that H puts the holistic deviancy on stack; you want 'h' instead?
16:32:08 <fizzie> Speaking of limited-memory systems, the TI-86 has mooz's rather nice interpreter/debugger, and that thing has 96 KB of user-accessible RAM. Of course that's befunge93 only.
16:33:40 <Deewiant> Befunge93 isn't much of a memory hog.
16:34:41 <ehird> I had to buy 12GB of RAM to run my befunge-98 mission-critical programs
16:34:45 <Deewiant> Still, CCBI manages to use 1484 K.
16:36:23 <AnMaster> From srcc!crocus!pangea.ca!befunge-request Sat Jan 04 05:02:14 1997
16:36:37 <fizzie> There's also rather little (can't really remember how little) of RAM that's really designated as "working RAM", since all programs the user installs (and other variables) are stored in the RAM too. Although you can add string variables to the VAT and use their contents as working RAM, and there's some free space you can use if you don't call the ROM function-plotting routines.
16:36:58 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't they have MX records by then?
16:37:06 <ehird> what's that got to do with anything
16:37:19 <AnMaster> ehird, oh not !-bang path in routing
16:37:30 <ehird> it's that too, I think
16:37:40 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm pretty sure that is even older
16:37:48 <ehird> I'm pretty sure there's a reason for it
16:38:31 <AnMaster> "Before I make the commitment to design a fully Befung-ctional system for the Mac"
16:38:37 <AnMaster> what is "Befung-ctional" I wonder
16:38:53 <ehird> Functional befunge.
16:39:00 <ehird> "a fully functional Befunge"
16:39:03 <ehird> "a fully Befung-ctional"
16:39:09 <ehird> they sound similar
16:39:33 <AnMaster> such things are easier for native speakers as usuak
16:39:40 <AnMaster> "I got an idea for Befunge playing SimCity. Why not envision a Befunge program as a road map of a
16:39:40 <AnMaster> city? Each cell is part of a line of cells in one row or one column, so why not structure them
16:40:15 -!- FireFly has joined.
16:40:45 <ehird> AnMaster: unsurprising
16:40:51 <ehird> Mac OS's official applications language was Pascal
16:41:26 <AnMaster> ehird, they were different posts
16:41:38 <ehird> AnMaster: still could have been a macci
16:41:50 <ehird> i mean, in 1997 you could use one of:
16:42:03 <ehird> - a buggy, hell on earth to configure linux or some sort
16:42:03 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it seems to be describe some kind of run-length compression of funge-space using "streets"
16:42:11 <ehird> - a stable, even more hell to configure bsd
16:42:22 <ehird> - a quite buggy but easy mac os
16:42:29 <ehird> pretty shit choice
16:42:32 <AnMaster> ehird, it was talking about Modula-2 too
16:42:42 <AnMaster> don't even remember what type of language that was
16:42:47 <ehird> AnMaster: first OO
16:43:10 <ehird> modula-3 was the first oo
16:43:17 <ehird> modula-2 was niklaus's pascal successor
16:43:19 <ehird> AnMaster: well, sure
16:43:31 <ehird> AnMaster: but that was just windows 95 that's buggy in different ways
16:43:35 <ehird> and has a rubbisher interface
16:43:56 <ehird> AnMaster: you can't afford a Sun box!
16:44:00 <ehird> those things cost *thousands*
16:44:45 <ehird> also, I think NT was quite hard to get vs 95
16:45:01 <ehird> so yeah, in 1997 your best choice was probably a BSD or MacOS
16:45:11 <ehird> the former if you hate yourself :-P
16:45:30 <Deewiant> ehird: In 1997, many would still use DOS.
16:45:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: how's the order
16:45:46 <ehird> Deewiant: True, but probably not by choice...
16:46:01 <Deewiant> I think I used DOS more often than Windows in those days.
16:46:06 <ehird> You could buy a NeXT box in 1997, couldn't you?
16:46:18 <ehird> Well, those cost multi thousands too. But if you could afford it, that'd be sweet nectar.
16:46:27 <ehird> yeah, you could, NeXT started in late 80s
16:46:33 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't it have been even more obscure than SunOS?
16:46:41 <fizzie> In 1997 I was a slackwareist, and it wasn't all that bad, really.
16:46:46 <fizzie> I didn't even break it very many times.
16:46:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Hey, TBL used it to make the web.
16:46:54 <ehird> And it was more known then than now.
16:47:03 <ehird> It'd be kind of like using a BSD today, probably.
16:47:10 <ehird> (on the desktop that is)
16:47:13 <AnMaster> ehird, somehow "then than now" just sounds funny
16:47:22 <AnMaster> at least if you say it without context
16:47:28 <ehird> Apple Computer announced an intention to acquire NeXT on December 20, 1996
16:47:42 <Deewiant> BeGlad: short for Befunge Gladiators
16:47:44 <fizzie> The _asm_exec_ram memory range on TI-86 (which is the main place for both code and data for the currently running application) is 9000 bytes; that's rather luxurious, given that the 80x25-byte Befunge93 space only needs 2000.
16:48:04 <Deewiant> Was at http://www.cats-eye.com/funge/doc/97/beglad-97.html, according to Google.
16:48:36 * AnMaster tries to remember what ^ was in pascal
16:48:42 <AnMaster> I haven't coded pascal for *YEARS*
16:49:01 <fizzie> It's more pointy than a *.
16:49:05 <ehird> y'know, Apple were gonna buy BeOS instead of OS X etc. But the CEO said something like "I have Apple by the balls and I am going to squeeze", iirc, so uh that didn't work out :-)
16:49:21 <ehird> may be apocryphal I think i heard it on reddit
16:49:48 <fizzie> Didn't that alternative C++ syntax (SPECS) adopt ^ for pointers because it's more pointy than the old *?
16:51:00 <fizzie> I guess the rationale ("^ is more pointy") is not in the specification, though. At least explicitly.
16:51:11 <AnMaster> Deewiant, err "cabbagepatch variable"? I'm pretty sure I saw it in the -96 spec, but I don't want to loose the location I'm at in the file atm
16:51:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Err, are you on a single-tasking OS or something?
16:51:55 <AnMaster> I found the first trefunge mention
16:51:58 <ehird> Deewiant: It's called emacs
16:52:05 <ehird> I don't think you can open the same file twice in emacs
16:52:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I don't know what that term means
16:52:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:52:39 <AnMaster> No results found for "cabbagepatch variable".
16:52:59 <AnMaster> Did you mean: "cabbage patch variable" -> No results found for "cabbage patch variable".
16:53:10 -!- jix_ has joined.
16:53:13 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
16:53:40 <AnMaster> right you can of course get different views of same file in emacs
16:53:58 <AnMaster> ehird, Deewiant: fact is however I was using less
16:54:15 <Deewiant> I wasn't talking about emacs, I was talking about your OS
16:54:18 <ehird> ^Zup enter /cabbage<ENTER>
16:54:24 <Deewiant> AFAIK less doesn't delete the file while it's viewing it
16:54:32 <Deewiant> Yeah, so you'd rather have me do it :-P
16:54:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you forgot gnu less supports --self-destruct
16:55:04 <AnMaster> so you don't have to eat the paper
16:55:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I was hoping you would happen to remember it
16:55:59 <Deewiant> I like the idea of an alcoholistic delta command. I can see it now: not
16:55:59 <Deewiant> only does the actual number added to each command change, but the program
16:55:59 <Deewiant> counter weaves around, occasionally hitting things and saying "ow" and
16:55:59 <Deewiant> "sorry, policeman, I'm drot nunk and I spasn't weeding!"
16:56:21 <ehird> spasn't weeding? I wasn't having spasms while on weed.
16:58:04 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could add that to a fingerprint in 98
16:58:19 <Deewiant> All of -96 could be a fingerprint in 98.
16:58:40 <ehird> everything could be a fingerprint in 98
16:58:54 <AnMaster> Each pane can have a different instruction on each side. The Program Counter
16:58:54 <AnMaster> would follow in a straight line along the surface of the pane. If a pane was
16:58:54 <AnMaster> blocking its way in front of it, it would turn upwards and follow it. If there
16:58:54 <AnMaster> was no pane to walk onto, it would 'fall' over the edge and either go downwards
16:58:54 <AnMaster> round the corner, or flip upside-down onto the other side of the pane.
16:59:10 <AnMaster> "To help you visualise this, imagine a rubik's cube with Befunge instructions drawn on the edges."
17:00:01 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:00:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, hi. I don't get IWC today. Care to provide "IWC explained"?
17:03:10 <Deewiant> He's worried about Death of Being Stared At Angrily By A Giant Frog
17:03:26 <oerjan> wow so he didn't disappear for good after all
17:03:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yes. But it seems to be referencing something from popular culture
17:03:55 <AnMaster> but I have no idea what it is referencing
17:03:56 <ehird> Your feelings suck
17:04:22 <oerjan> Deewiant: Head Paradox, too, i expect
17:04:27 -!- asiekierka has quit.
17:06:07 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot").
17:10:18 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:10:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, seems asiekierka disliked your interpreter btw?
17:11:07 <ehird> asie is a fickle person.
17:11:08 <Deewiant> If he can't run it I'm not surprised :-P
17:11:39 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you could run it even on a sparc I think. Just use qemu's support for emulating other architectures.
17:12:07 <AnMaster> assuming qemu works on non-x86 (which iirc it does)
17:12:18 <Deewiant> Of course you can run it on anything if you emulate, that's the whole point of an emulator. But then you're not really running it on the environment the emulator is running in.
17:13:32 <ehird> I think I'll write my own browser. Why? Indeed, why.
17:14:03 <Deewiant> Writing a reasonably-sized program.
17:14:21 <oerjan> AnMaster: i don't think there is a specific reference anyway, diaries are everywhere in fiction
17:14:30 <Deewiant> Befunge-96 is a bizarre, half-formed, misfeatured, brain-damaged
17:14:30 <Deewiant> standard that appears to have been written at 3:00 in the morning. The
17:14:30 <Deewiant> standard itself was written by Chris Pressey, and appears on his site
17:14:30 <Deewiant> (see question 5). Do not write in it! Do not bother to implement it!
17:14:35 <AnMaster> oerjan, right. But it seemed more than that
17:14:51 <oerjan> AnMaster: it's probably a trope
17:14:57 <AnMaster> btw, do any of you write a diary in real life? Or know someone who does.
17:15:15 <Deewiant> Given that it took 4 months for people to completely dismiss -96... I'm not going to implement it :-P
17:15:23 <AnMaster> it seems rather uncommon outside fiction...
17:15:39 <ehird> Have pretty much replaced diaries for TEH NU GEN.
17:15:45 <oerjan> AnMaster: Anne Frank made one, i hear
17:15:56 <AnMaster> ehird, that is less private. a diary is not public like a blong
17:15:58 <ehird> oerjan: pfft, like a dirty jew could be clever enough to write
17:15:59 <ehird> pull the other one
17:16:04 <ehird> they couldn't even figure out vowels
17:16:16 <AnMaster> though they do have a similar use
17:16:20 <ehird> AnMaster: kids are less private. there are probably blogs with details that would be considered only suitable for a diary years ago
17:20:08 <Deewiant> C compilers back then were a pile of incompatibilities
17:20:16 <Deewiant> tried PCC (a shareware compiler), but then I realized it is
17:20:16 <Deewiant> missing STRING.H. I tried Microsoft Quick C, but it does not
17:20:17 <Deewiant> seem to support srand() and rand() commands.
17:21:12 <Deewiant> Not the pcc you're thinking of.
17:21:36 <ehird> lol@not supporting rand
17:22:01 <Slereah> I support Ayn Rand all the way
17:22:50 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so there is some stuff discussing 97 but where is the 97 spec?
17:22:58 <AnMaster> not on the list as far as I can find
17:23:08 <Deewiant> Why do you ask me? If it's not there it's not there.
17:24:12 <Deewiant> FUNGINOMY: The practice of fully naming fungoids (Cartitoribefungoid is the
17:24:13 <Deewiant> full name for Befunge-93, and it looks like Befunge-97 will be
17:24:13 <Deewiant> Cartispheribefungoid. Both implementations are Cartefungoids - Cartesian
17:24:13 <Deewiant> FUNGINOMINOMY: The process of coming up with words like "funginomy."
17:24:42 <AnMaster> "well, this is really sick, but I had a thought..
17:24:42 <AnMaster> it could be a form of encapsulation, making sure that any PC that enters that
17:24:42 <AnMaster> block of code has to do it through the right port (which will global-shift
17:24:42 <AnMaster> it correctly) or get fucked up. Otherwise someone could hit it slightly off
17:24:42 <AnMaster> and end up skipping vital steps of your process."
17:24:54 <AnMaster> but this sounds extremely weird
17:25:05 <ehird> Cartitoribefungoid?
17:25:08 <ehird> That's an awesome name for -93
17:25:38 <ehird> That's not very funge-soundin
17:25:55 <Deewiant> Since I guess it is Cartesian.
17:27:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Grep for `Here's the list of "what it all means."`, list of very short names/descriptions for Befunge-97 instructions at the time
17:27:17 <oerjan> it's a shark programming language
17:27:32 <AnMaster> I think this might be the start of the idea of storage offset
17:27:40 <Deewiant> 80,25-Cartefinitoribefunge-93.
17:28:16 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Storage offset-related ideas were hashed quite early there, I think.
17:28:35 <Deewiant> Somebody said that a new thread should access relative to where it was born
17:28:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, any idea of what the thread where you can find this in:
17:28:50 <AnMaster> Can we leave it for "Befunge-97" or perhaps "Befunge-97: The Director's Cut"
17:28:50 <AnMaster> ("The Truly Twisted Compile?") :-)
17:29:01 <AnMaster> so what is that thread about. I can't figure it out
17:29:19 <Deewiant> >Goddess, that's sick. But I think it's sufficiently befunged.
17:29:31 <Deewiant> You can work your way back can't you?
17:29:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I tried but I can't find the start of that thread
17:30:10 <Deewiant> Well, if befunge is to be multiple-PC'ed, you could have the "global"
17:30:10 <Deewiant> attributes affect only particular PC's (eg, have them as fields in
17:30:10 <Deewiant> PC structs). That way, a "global increment" would only affect a particular
17:30:33 <ehird> can't you lot import it into a mail client?
17:30:41 -!- tombom has joined.
17:30:58 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I guess I could try to open it in mutt
17:31:21 -!- pikhq has joined.
17:31:26 <AnMaster> except this mutt is set to work on maildir style mailboxes by default
17:33:03 <Deewiant> Hahaha, a Java Befunge-93 interpreter which uses strings as indices into a hash table for infinite space
17:33:10 <Deewiant> /*NEED AN OBJECT FOR A KEY ANYWAYS..WHY NOT A STRING?*/
17:33:19 <Deewiant> return new String(String.valueOf(_x) +","+ String.valueOf(_y));
17:33:24 <ehird> NEED UPPERCASE COMMENTS..WHY NOT USE TWO-DOT ELLIPSES?
17:33:27 <Deewiant> Maybe because it's a bad idea? :-D
17:33:42 <Deewiant> I love the way he creates 6 strings in one line
17:33:48 <Deewiant> In order to index a hash table
17:34:20 <Deewiant> ehird: From the mouth of Christopher Lahey himself: cartinfinilahebefunge
17:34:28 <ehird> Deewiant: Beautiful.
17:34:36 <ehird> http://www.christopherlahey.com/ ey
17:34:46 <ehird> "ASP.NET Development"
17:34:53 <Deewiant> Christopher James Lahey <clahey@umich.edu>
17:35:10 <ehird> ah, googling suggests it's not the same person
17:35:28 <Deewiant> Interesting, his name is pronounced /lehi/
17:35:44 <Deewiant> Stress on the first syllable, too.
17:36:57 <Deewiant> But anyway: "As prescribed in the Hawaii Admission Act that granted Hawaiian statehood, the federal government recognizes Hawaii to be the official state name."
17:37:44 <pikhq> So the glottal stop is implicit. Got it. :p
17:38:06 <Deewiant> Actually, before that, pasting this:
17:38:07 <Deewiant> Another thought on Quantefungoids (Quantum Mechanics):
17:38:07 <Deewiant> How about T is like a subatomic particle decay? That is, the PC is split
17:38:07 <Deewiant> into two PC's (or ip's if that's your cup of tea), one going (relative)
17:38:07 <Deewiant> left, one going right. All delta-commands either PC further encounters are
17:38:10 <Deewiant> listened to IN MIRROR SYMMERTRY BY BOTH PC's. Yes, Quantefunge could be
17:38:12 <Deewiant> the first programming language ever to implement spooky action at a
17:38:37 <AnMaster> From: "Chris Pressey" <cats-eye@cats-eye.com>
17:38:38 <AnMaster> X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155
17:39:36 <ehird> Watercooling uses such creepy terms. "Fill and bleed".
17:40:05 <GregorR> Anybody written a program in ShaFuck yet? :P
17:40:38 * oerjan swats GregorR -----###
17:40:54 <GregorR> Hey, don't get mad at me for YOUR incompetence.
17:40:55 <ehird> GregorR: describe?
17:40:59 <GregorR> http://www.esolangs.org/wiki/ShaFuck
17:41:03 <ehird> find sha1(x)=y(bf prog)
17:41:11 <ehird> when y is interpreted as binary
17:41:41 <GregorR> But I wrote an interpreter and everything!
17:41:48 <GregorR> And nobody's written any code! :(
17:42:23 <oerjan> the syntax is a little awkward to get just right, you see
17:42:30 <AnMaster> GregorR, err does it mean interpreter tries to calculate the corresponding program for a sha1 sum?
17:42:57 <GregorR> AnMaster: If by "calculate" you mean "just run", then yes.
17:43:47 <AnMaster> GregorR, I meant finding a string corresponding to the sum
17:44:05 <ehird> AnMaster: your 1024 byte program is a string
17:44:08 <ehird> the interpreter calculates
17:44:15 <ehird> and runs bf as brainfuck, comments not allowed
17:44:17 <GregorR> Yeah, there's no math to that. You take the sum, and interpret it as a string.
17:44:25 <ehird> in case you haven't realized yet, it's a bit hard to write a program for
17:44:41 <GregorR> If by "hard" you mean "quite literally impossible within the lifespan of the universe" :P
17:44:41 <AnMaster> I just didn't figure out which direction it was done
17:44:47 <ehird> GregorR: http://codu.org/eso/ this page is funny
17:45:09 <GregorR> It used to work great, but I can never align it right now >_<
17:45:25 <ehird> it looks like a geocities page
17:46:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, why are you using two layers, it would be easier to just put it inline
17:47:00 <GregorR> It's a different color. It would actually be a fair PITA to put it inline. Plus that makes copy/paste useless.
17:47:31 <AnMaster> GregorR, you need an extra newline before FYB, and then one before ORK
17:47:58 <AnMaster> other than that it looks fine in konqueror
17:48:15 <GregorR> AnMaster: Yeah, the problem is that certain browsers were displaying the boldness weird. I'm fixing it now to just not use bold (why did I not do that in the first place? :P )
17:48:36 * ehird configures the most expensive Mac possible: $87,247.
17:48:57 <GregorR> ehird: That'd better come with free blowjobs.
17:49:20 <AnMaster> GregorR, ah you added the missing newlines
17:49:26 <ehird> Admittedly, it's an Xserve with $49,995 "Alliance" Apple support, a service part kit, a $18,999 Promise VTrak E-Class 16x 450GB SAS RAID subsystem (7.2TB), an unlimited managed systems remote desktop kit,
17:49:29 <ehird> all the display adaptors,
17:49:31 <ehird> TWO power supplies,
17:49:38 <ehird> a dual-channel 4gb fibre card
17:49:41 <ehird> and a quad-channel of the same
17:49:43 <GregorR> AnMaster: No, the problem is that /some browsers/ made bold lines take up more space, so things got wonky.
17:49:51 <ehird> 3 1TB 7.2k rpm ones with a raid card
17:49:54 <AnMaster> GregorR, those are buggy IMO :P
17:49:59 <ehird> 24GB (6x4GB) ddr3 ecc ram
17:50:08 <ehird> and 2 x 2.93ghz quad core Nehalem xeons
17:50:18 <ehird> All for the LOW LOW LOW price of $87,247!
17:51:05 <ehird> It's practically free.
17:51:52 <ehird> Just a bit of price from free.
17:54:08 <ehird> "This Auction is for 3 x Apple power Mac G3 400Mhz, 128 Ram" for £1.04 on eBay.
17:54:16 <ehird> Damn selling shit on ebay is stupid :-P
17:55:08 <ehird> (I was trying to find the most expensive mac possible and the least expensive mac possible)
17:55:32 <ehird> $1.56 to $87,247. Apple's covered all the market.
17:56:14 -!- impomatic has joined.
17:58:12 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
17:59:16 <oerjan> "Best quality organic fertilizer, bovine based"
18:00:58 <GregorR> ehird: Oh, you can buy far more expensive computers than that.
18:01:21 <GregorR> ehird: My point being that they haven't "covered all the market"
18:01:22 <ehird> That is the singlemost expensive computer you can buy from apple.com
18:01:40 <ehird> GregorR: They've covered about 99% of it, then, at least :P
18:01:51 <impomatic> Have some info about CoreLife now, the second 2 dimensional programming language: http://corewar.co.uk/corelife/
18:02:02 <ehird> I'm not sure supercomputers like the RoadRunner can count as (a) one computer (b) a market of any kind
18:02:10 <GregorR> Somebody should reimplement that in JS.
18:04:39 <impomatic> CoreLife in JS, that'd be great :-)
18:05:18 <impomatic> Just submitted it to reddit to see what kind of comments it gets.
18:06:12 <oerjan> impomatic: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Biota
18:06:24 <oerjan> also, http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Timeline_of_esoteric_programming_languages
18:06:45 <pikhq> Power Mac G3 for $1.04? Hot damn.
18:06:54 <ehird> pikhq: Three of them!
18:06:59 * pikhq needs to upgrade his PII router.
18:07:01 <ehird> pikhq: And yeah, it only has one bid, but 22 hours to go
18:07:13 <ehird> (a) seller refuses to give
18:07:17 <ehird> (b) price shoots up
18:07:19 <ehird> (c) miracle happens
18:07:47 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
18:07:48 <pikhq> Hmm. Allow me to try to make an absurdly expensive PC...
18:07:55 <ehird> Sorting ebay sections by "Price + P&P: lowest first" is a nice way to prey on people's innate disability to recognize what things are worth
18:08:21 <ehird> "2x MAC OSX CDROMS V10.2"
18:08:49 <ehird> pikhq: With 2 x Nehalems, just enable hyperthreading = 16 threads at once
18:09:03 <ehird> You definitely want to work in multiples of Xeon Nehalem 3.2ghzs
18:09:22 <ehird> and that's from newegg
18:09:24 <pikhq> Well, yeah. If we're talking expensive, we're going with Intel.
18:09:36 <pikhq> (unless AMD decided to make chips out of gold?)
18:09:37 <ehird> the i7 of same speed is just $1k
18:09:38 <lifthrasiir> well i fell asleep too early and wake up right now (2:10 AM here). :|
18:09:45 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: (as a reply that should be done 6 hours ago) oh well, you know tkbf93? :p
18:09:50 <ehird> pikhq: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117179
18:10:01 <ehird> pikhq: Get 4 of them.
18:10:13 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: I have a copy of it :-P
18:10:15 <pikhq> I'll get more if there's a motherboard that can handle it.
18:10:24 <ehird> pikhq: Also, for each one, get a Megahalems from Prolimatech: http://www.prolimatech.com/products/megahalems.html
18:10:32 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: And it segfaulted on chess.bef :-P
18:10:32 <ehird> pikhq: It's not on newegg, but it costs about $80 iirc
18:10:46 <ehird> pikhq: So yeah, pretty expensive heatsink
18:11:01 <ehird> $320 for 16 cores and you still need to buy fans :-)
18:11:07 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Is it 64-bit clean? I didn't try 32-bit, maybe that's the reason?
18:11:22 <ehird> pikhq: I'll help you find some megaexpensive ram, ey?
18:11:27 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: i cannot remember all the detail now.
18:13:17 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2").
18:13:44 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Looks like it uses just int so it should be safe
18:13:54 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: hmm it seems to have growable (singly-linked) stack at least
18:14:24 <Deewiant> lifthrasiir: Ah, I was wondering what Z was :-)
18:14:55 -!- jix_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:15:05 <Deewiant> Since you're closing the file only when you exit you might as well have made that exit(0)...
18:15:36 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: anyway that was a holy crap. i could write better thing now... in terms of length of program. ;)
18:17:06 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: if you want to see more horrible thing, see http://hg.mearie.org/angolmois/file/angolmois-1.0/angolmois.c
18:18:08 <Deewiant> 00manifest.i@angolmois-1.0: no match found
18:18:27 <lifthrasiir> try this: http://hg.mearie.org/angolmois/file/22549e0cee7a/angolmois.c
18:18:28 <Deewiant> http://hg.mearie.org/angolmois/file/a49bf45b49ef/angolmois.c
18:18:46 <lifthrasiir> more recent de-obfuscated version is quite readable. but 1.0 was horrible.
18:19:27 <lifthrasiir> AnMaster: the name esotope is a portmanteau of esoteric and isotope, popped from my head someday.
18:20:04 <lifthrasiir> and DSL idea is good, but that could need heavy canonicalization that is yet not good in current phase. anyway thanks for suggestion.
18:20:10 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:20:51 <AnMaster> lifthrasiir, I got the idea from the optimiser DSL "oil" found in ick
18:23:04 <Deewiant> languages (like, C and Perl) really are Unefungoids.
18:24:30 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Befunge-97 spec is there
18:24:40 <Deewiant> AnMaster: "Edit #2 (rough) - Jun 5 Chris Pressey"
18:25:07 <Deewiant> As I thought, directives contain =
18:25:37 <Deewiant> I knew I wasn't thinking just about Mini-Funge :-P
18:26:22 <AnMaster> ok, don't have time to read it right away, going afk for a bit. I guess I will put them cut out specs (and the original file) up somewhere, with permission from the person you got the file from
18:26:29 <Deewiant> Some nice multithreaded instructions there
18:26:54 <Deewiant> Funky blocking is provided by Y "Merge Threads".
18:27:00 <lifthrasiir> Deewiant: back to the angolmois, it has an embedded font; it parses game data file itself and generates all the surfaces on the fly. i wasted my time a lot 5 years ago, and never want to do such thing more XD
18:27:09 <impomatic> Hmmm... time to go, it's a quiz night :-(
18:27:19 -!- impomatic has left (?).
18:27:29 <Deewiant> In Befunge-97, any existing command (see Appendix A) can be redefined in
18:27:29 <Deewiant> one of three ways: rebinding it to another existing Befunge command with B
18:27:29 <Deewiant> "Bind Command", defining a routine with D "Define Routine", or defining it
18:27:29 <Deewiant> to a runtime library call with L "Bind Library Call".
18:28:34 <Deewiant> Library calls look like just implementation-dependant FFI
18:28:38 <fizzie> Heh, five different types of wrapping you can select from.
18:30:41 <Deewiant> *Monefungoid: like a Unefungoid but only capable of going one direction
18:30:41 <Deewiant> (the IP can't move backwards.) 6502 Assembly language is a monefungoid.
18:30:41 <Deewiant> (I considered Polariziunefungoid but discarded it for obvious reasons.)
18:30:42 -!- tombom has joined.
18:32:06 <Deewiant> AnMaster: FWIW that's not the latest version, he updates it later but only links to his now-defunct web site.
18:42:14 <Deewiant> Hah, queuemode got added to Befunge-97
18:43:17 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
18:50:31 <ehird> Deewiant: Me and pikhq's megarig is currently at $22,790.56 for CPUs, mobo, RAM, CPU coolers, thermal compound and graphics cards
18:50:38 <ehird> We're nowhere near done :-)
18:51:00 <ehird> Deewiant: $6,239 of RAM.
18:51:06 <ehird> ... only DDR2, though, but...
18:51:14 <ehird> 8 CPUs of 4 cores each.
18:51:23 <ehird> We had to buy a $553 expansion card for the mobo to support more CPUs and RAM
18:51:24 <Deewiant> Where'd you find a mobo with 8 sockets? O_o
18:51:27 <ehird> The RAM is in 32 sticks
18:51:30 <ehird> Deewiant: Nope, 4 sockets
18:51:34 <ehird> And an expansion card using two pci x16
18:51:39 <ehird> That gives more RAM and CPU sockets
18:51:43 <pikhq> As hypertransport slots.
18:51:46 <ehird> AMD's more expensive
18:51:50 <ehird> Because Intel only do dual motherboards
18:51:52 -!- MizardX has quit ("back in 30 minutes or so").
18:52:20 <ehird> Most Expensive CPUs As Power Goes Upwards: Intel AMD
18:54:17 <ehird> Deewiant: we just spend $141.96 on RAM fans.
18:54:26 <ehird> Four of them, to cool our 32 RAM sticks.
18:54:47 <Deewiant> How many decibels do you estimate that thing is at?
18:55:04 <pikhq> No, but I bet it's going to hit 100.
18:55:05 <ehird> Deewiant: So far, probably about 60dB or thereabouts
18:55:17 <pikhq> (the air can only handle 180dB or so)
18:55:28 <ehird> That's 8 CPU fans, 4 RAM fans, and 2 stock graphics card fans
18:55:35 <ehird> Apparently the RAM fans are horribly noisy from a review
18:55:41 <ehird> Deewiant: We have 8 of these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103056
18:55:48 <ehird> I'm not sure they'd fit, but we can just mod them if not, right?
18:56:09 <ehird> Deewiant: It's a GTX 285
18:56:12 <ehird> It's only been out since december
18:56:19 <ehird> And also, VGA coolers top out at around $50 on newegg
18:56:22 <ehird> Deewiant: nothing supports it
18:56:33 <Deewiant> My cooler supports up to the X1300 or so
18:56:36 <pikhq> And we don't care about $50.
18:56:42 <ehird> $50 isn't worth it.
18:56:43 <Deewiant> It fit just fine, after removing a bit of the heatsink
18:56:45 <ehird> There are bigger fish.
18:56:46 <pikhq> We're spending more on SATA cables.
18:56:53 <ehird> And stock GPU coolers are really fucking loud anyway ;-)
18:57:09 <pikhq> (I assume we'll max out the onboard SATA and the RAID card, right?)
18:57:18 <ehird> AnMaster: Me and pikhq trying to build the most expensive computer, ever.
18:57:23 <ehird> We're spending $6k just on RAM.
18:57:38 <ehird> OK, so pikhq, we have processors, motherboard, cpu expansion card, RAM, ram fans, CPU fans/heatsinks, thermal compound and video cards.
18:57:52 <ehird> I think, I think we should go buy some expensive harddrives
18:57:55 <pikhq> I'll look at hard drives, you look at RAID cards?
18:58:04 <ehird> I'll look at hard drives
18:58:05 <Deewiant> For RAID cards I recommend Areca
18:58:15 <pikhq> Deewiant: We don't have spare PCI slots any more.
18:58:17 <ehird> AnMaster: comes with the deal
18:58:18 <Deewiant> I think they're on the high end of things
18:58:24 <ehird> pikhq: THe ramsans go into pci
18:58:25 <AnMaster> ehird, AND just do IBM RoadRunner but with twice as many CPUs. That will be more expensive I bet
18:58:31 <ehird> AnMaster: That's not a computer
18:58:46 <pikhq> Our 8 CPUs are using two PCIe, the GPUs are using two more, and we have another PCI slot for the RAID.
18:58:47 <ehird> I'll find the most expensive SATA harddrives
18:58:58 <ehird> Probably an SSD, mayb
18:59:19 <pikhq> Or some absurdly speedy 1.5TB drive.
18:59:35 <ehird> The most expensive single harddrive on newegg
18:59:40 <ehird> LEt's look at the...
19:00:00 <ehird> pikhq: Something like 64GB
19:00:10 <ehird> pikhq: How many sata slots do we have?
19:00:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Because this is epic.
19:00:21 <pikhq> 8 on the mobo, dunno on the RAID.
19:00:26 <ehird> AnMaster: fuck off
19:00:38 <ehird> pikhq: OK, so $6,392 of SSD madness.
19:00:49 <ehird> pikhq: A whopping 512GB of storage.
19:01:01 <pikhq> Get an SATA RAID card and stick a 2TB drive on there.
19:01:16 <AnMaster> (For best viewing experience please use a monospace font.)
19:01:25 <ehird> pikhq: Maybe we should fill EVERY SLOT with a SATA RAID card.
19:01:29 <ehird> And fill those cards with X25-Es
19:01:41 <pikhq> Y'mean, instead of the graphics card?
19:01:46 <pikhq> I think I approve.
19:01:53 <ehird> Can't you get SATA raid things
19:01:55 <ehird> They go direct into SATA
19:02:28 <ehird> pikhq: the top single areca raid card is $1,599
19:02:35 <ehird> and I loathe to lose graphics cards
19:02:39 <ehird> But, um, we'll use onboard video, right?
19:02:49 <ehird> So we want two of them.
19:02:59 <ehird> The fucking RAID card. Has a fan.
19:03:08 <ehird> This RAID card. Is the most powerful RAID card on the planet.
19:03:10 <fizzie> Gahs this library is very unfun to install.
19:03:16 <fizzie> # This file is part of SEP's set of GNU make rules for painless compilation
19:03:16 <fizzie> # This file overrides defaults that are incorrect for the SUN4 architecture
19:03:22 <fizzie> SYSLIB= /usr/lib/gcc-lib/i386-redhat-linux/egcs-2.91.66/libg2c.a -lm
19:03:22 <Deewiant> ehird: Interesting that your HDs are so cheap
19:03:33 <fizzie> That line is not making this very painless.
19:03:42 <Deewiant> I found some things that cost 2000 €
19:03:49 <ehird> Internal Connectors6xSFF-8087
19:03:54 <ehird> Are those the harddrive thingies
19:04:23 <ehird> I wanna know how many HDs can go in one of these cards
19:04:29 <ehird> We're still filling the sata ports with x25-E
19:04:34 <ehird> and we'll fill these raids with them too
19:04:58 <pikhq> It's a SAS connector.
19:05:11 <ehird> pikhq: So we can't connect SATA drives?
19:05:15 <ehird> ... is there an adaptor?
19:05:19 <ehird> We can buy 6 adaptors, you see.
19:05:21 <AnMaster> ehird, so you are trying to make it as loud as well?
19:05:28 <ehird> AnMaster: That's just a bonus.
19:05:35 <ehird> Cost takes precedent.
19:05:42 <AnMaster> ehird, how much would replacing this with passive cooling cost
19:05:46 <pikhq> SATA drives can be hooked to SAS controllers.
19:05:50 <ehird> AnMaster: $infinity for passive cooling.
19:05:51 <pikhq> Just not the other way around.
19:05:58 <ehird> $-something for water cooling
19:06:04 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, go for replacing it all with water cooling then!
19:06:10 <ehird> It would cost less.
19:06:15 <ehird> You can't beat $1,119 on fans and heatsinks for the CPUs.
19:06:22 <fizzie> SFF-8087 is something you can connect four SATA drives into, I think.
19:06:23 <ehird> pikhq: So one card holds 6 drives?
19:06:32 <ehird> pikhq: So we need 12 more drives.
19:06:51 <fizzie> Well, at least there exists a four-port SFF-8087 connector; I'm not sure if they all are like that.
19:06:52 <ehird> pikhq: $15,980 on storage.
19:06:58 <AnMaster> ehird, sure the power supply can handle it?
19:07:06 <ehird> AnMaster: we'll have two
19:07:06 <pikhq> We can get a PCI RAID card, right?
19:07:12 <ehird> pikhq: these are pci
19:07:17 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816151053
19:07:23 <ehird> And each does 6 drives
19:07:24 <pikhq> You said "PCI x8". Which is PCIe.
19:07:32 <AnMaster> ehird, mhm, you can't fit them inside the case then right? Unless you are using some weird server case with a backup power supply
19:07:42 <AnMaster> but in those cases it is for power supply
19:07:48 <ehird> pikhq: RAID cards + SSDs currently total to $19,179.98
19:07:54 <ehird> pikhq: I'll find the most expensive regular PCI raid card
19:08:13 <ehird> pikhq: I think we may need to invent a new kind of mathematics to calculate this price
19:08:25 <ehird> pikhq: how much IDE shit does our mobo have?
19:08:32 <fizzie> ehird: Yes, if it is that "ARC-1680IX-24 PCIe x8 SAS RAID Card" card you can connect 24 drives in it. Four to each SAS connector.
19:08:35 <ehird> And you can buy SATA←→IDE adaptors, right?
19:09:14 <AnMaster> what OS will you use? I bet window would be the most expensive OS to use on it
19:09:19 <ehird> AnMaster: No way man
19:09:28 <ehird> 56 fucking drives.
19:09:39 <ehird> Okay, pikhq? Find the most expensive SATA to IDE cable, please.
19:09:45 <ehird> pikhq: Then we'll add one more SSD in to it, you see.
19:09:47 <pikhq> AnMaster: Thousand or so a seat.
19:09:57 <pikhq> ehird: Two SSDs, you mean.
19:10:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, using windows would be cheaper indeed...
19:10:03 <ehird> pikhq: You said one IDE port.
19:10:04 <pikhq> One IDE handles two drives.
19:10:12 <ehird> OK, find two adaptors, pikhq? Or one.
19:10:16 <ehird> Just find the adaptors we need.
19:10:17 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Nice.
19:10:25 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Will you buy THIS rig for us?
19:10:27 <ehird> It's currently at...
19:10:48 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: $70,016.52
19:10:54 <ehird> And no way are we done.
19:10:59 <ehird> pikhq: Go find that adaptor, boy.
19:11:03 <ehird> I'll find a regular PCI raid card.
19:11:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: $44k of SSDs
19:11:13 <ehird> but the ram is $6k
19:11:15 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood, we're spending some $6,000 on RAM.
19:11:25 <ehird> the processors are $14k, bsmntbombdood
19:11:29 <ehird> eight four-core opterons
19:11:37 <pikhq> ehird: Those RAID cards each have an external SAS slot as well.
19:11:47 <ehird> pikhq: let's figure that out later
19:11:51 <ehird> GET THAT ADAPTOR BITCH :P
19:12:15 <ehird> Hey pikhq, we only have one PCI slot right?
19:12:18 <ehird> 19:11 ehird: eight four-core opterons , AnMaster
19:12:35 <AnMaster> ehird, sure you can't do more?
19:12:51 <ehird> pikhq: Hmm. Not worth it. $269.99 is the most expensive raid thing for PCI
19:12:58 <ehird> I'm sure we can find a better use
19:12:58 <AnMaster> I mean the most expensive mobo might not be the one that allows the most expensive equipment!
19:13:04 <ehird> pikhq: it is worth it
19:13:07 <ehird> since it adds another ssd
19:13:12 <AnMaster> ehird, so a cheaper mobo might result in a higher total cost
19:13:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813151085
19:13:18 <ehird> AnMaster: We know, goddamn.
19:13:20 <ehird> We've played with permutations
19:13:23 <pikhq> AnMaster: This mobo supports the most CPUs.
19:13:36 <pikhq> We've got 32 freaking RAM slots.
19:13:37 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what
19:13:49 <ehird> pikhq: there are no PCI raid cards
19:13:51 <ehird> pikhq: found that adaptor?
19:13:51 -!- cherez has joined.
19:13:56 <pikhq> In a motherboard that supports more than one CPU slot.
19:14:03 -!- cherez has quit (Client Quit).
19:14:08 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: turned out cheaper
19:14:11 <ehird> due to only being able to have 2 procs
19:14:27 <bsmntbombdood> don't go for money...go for performance without hinderance from money
19:14:32 <ehird> We're going for money.
19:14:45 <ehird> We can do performance tomorrow :P
19:14:58 <AnMaster> ehird, what form factor is that mobo O_o
19:15:05 <pikhq> It is also very high performance.
19:15:12 <ehird> AnMaster: We have a PCIe expansion card for the 4 more CPUs
19:15:20 <pikhq> We've got 4 GB per core.
19:15:35 <pikhq> ehird: It's a hypertransport card.
19:15:50 <pikhq> AMD has a freaky way of doing Hypertransport via PCIe slots.
19:15:51 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: dude
19:15:53 <ehird> that's 128GB in total
19:15:56 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Largest DDR2 stick.
19:16:09 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: yes
19:16:11 <ehird> it's most expensive
19:16:15 <ehird> 4GB ddr2 is highly expensive
19:16:29 <ehird> God, bsmntbombdood, we're going for PRICE.
19:16:30 -!- Hiato has joined.
19:16:51 <pikhq> We've spent over an hour on it.
19:16:52 <ehird> Yes it is. But we're doing it, you globmonkey.
19:16:56 <ehird> pikhq: found that adaptor?
19:17:08 <pikhq> ehird: I'm looking for it.
19:17:40 <ehird> Argh, they're all the wrong way around
19:18:25 <pikhq> We can go USB -> SATA, though...
19:18:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: "contact for price"
19:18:35 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=ide+sata+adapter&x=0&y=0
19:18:41 <ehird> Nippon Labs USB-SATA USB to IDE/SATA Adapter w/ power - Retail
19:18:43 <ehird> is the final connection
19:18:47 <ehird> SABRENT USB-DSC5 Serial ATA (SATA) or IDE 2.5" and 3.5" to USB 2.0 Cable Converter Adapter - Retail
19:18:59 <bsmntbombdood> why are you even considering usb or pata for anything?
19:19:04 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: shut up
19:19:07 <ehird> we're getting x25-Es
19:19:08 <ehird> and they're expensive
19:19:12 <ehird> and we want two more drives
19:19:16 <ehird> so we need to put IDE shit
19:19:16 <pikhq> How much was that x25-E?
19:19:18 <ehird> but the ssds only do sata
19:19:21 <ehird> pikhq: $700 or so a pop
19:19:26 <ehird> And we can do two more of them with these adaptors
19:19:36 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: STFU, we're getting 56 of them already
19:19:40 <ehird> with IDE we can get58
19:19:51 <ehird> pikhq: shall I add those adapters?
19:20:21 <pikhq> I think I found the normal IDE->SATA adaptors.
19:20:30 <ehird> pikhq: wrong way around
19:20:37 <ehird> we have a sata drive and want to plug it into ide
19:20:44 <ehird> we can do this by going via usb
19:20:54 <ehird> that's the way you do the diagram?
19:21:03 <ehird> pikhq: how much is it?
19:21:06 <ehird> via USB may be more expensive
19:21:16 -!- cherez has joined.
19:21:16 -!- cherez has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:21:16 <pikhq> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200373 ?
19:21:23 <pikhq> But that's just plain silly.
19:21:26 <ehird> pikhq: ours is more expensive
19:21:29 <ehird> $39.98 for each drive
19:21:34 <pikhq> I mean, more so than what we've been doing previously.
19:21:35 -!- cherez has joined.
19:21:44 -!- cherez has left (?).
19:22:11 <bsmntbombdood> you can get external sata->sata raid cards can't you?
19:22:14 <pikhq> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200196 Also, this one is $26.99 per drive.
19:22:22 <ehird> we now have $46,342 in SSDs
19:22:39 <pikhq> Erm. That's just $26.99. Oh well.
19:22:46 <ehird> pikhq: want the current total?
19:23:06 <ehird> Processors, motherboard, CPU card, RAM, RAM fans, CPU fans/heatsinks, thermal compound, RAID cards, IDE to SATA adapters, and drives
19:23:07 <pikhq> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200156 This is $30 per drive, though.
19:23:19 <ehird> hmm I'll add that then total
19:24:03 <ehird> WITH STORAGE: $72,674.41
19:24:07 <ehird> WITHOUT STORAGE: $26,332.41
19:24:13 <ehird> (that's JUST the ssds missing)
19:24:30 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Single system.
19:24:40 <ehird> that's if you RAID 0, of course
19:24:45 <ehird> 64GB per disk and 58 disks
19:24:55 <AnMaster> ehird, RAID 1 them. More *wasted* money then
19:25:17 <ehird> pikhq: OK, I think we need some optical drives now?
19:25:24 <AnMaster> (RAID 1 does make sense, just not for *THAT* many drives)
19:25:29 <ehird> To burn and rip the family photos / music albums.
19:25:33 <ehird> You know, on this family PC.
19:25:34 <pikhq> Aren't there those SATA multiplexers?
19:25:39 <pikhq> ehird: Definitely.
19:25:47 <ehird> also, I think maxing out storage any further sux
19:25:51 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816102107
19:25:53 <ehird> it's almost like cheating
19:26:06 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what does that buy us
19:26:15 <ehird> it looks good, I just don't know what it does :-)
19:26:19 <ehird> also, it looks a bit too external
19:26:36 <AnMaster> ehird, does the mobo actually have onboard video?
19:26:37 <ehird> AnMaster: We'll get the best fucking floppies in the universe.
19:26:38 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:26:43 <ehird> It's a server board.
19:26:54 <ehird> $329.99 for the most expensive bluray burner
19:26:58 <ehird> pikhq: how many can we fit?
19:27:00 <bsmntbombdood> you can get 8 of those with your mobo, so 96 drives
19:27:03 <ehird> We've maxed out the slots, haven't we pikhq?
19:27:04 <pikhq> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827248014 Most expensive internal burner.
19:27:13 <AnMaster> http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?CurImage=13-151-085-S02&ISList=13-151-085-S01%2c13-151-085-S02%2c13-151-085-S03%2c13-151-085-S04%2c13-151-085-S05&S7ImageFlag=1&Item=N82E16813151085&Depa=0&WaterMark=1&Description=TYAN%20S4985G3NR%20SSI%20MEB%20footprint%20Server%20Motherboard%20-%20Retail <--- *three* ethernet ports?
19:27:14 <pikhq> There's PCI SATA slots.
19:27:26 <ehird> pikhq: Just tell me how much free we have ;-)
19:27:42 <ehird> pikhq: OK, so only one burner.
19:27:46 <ehird> Do we need any adapter shit?
19:27:48 <pikhq> The external SAS slots on the RAID cards.
19:28:23 <pikhq> Each SAS slot is 4 SCSI slots.
19:28:49 <ehird> Do we need an adapter for the PCI slot thing, pikhq?
19:28:56 <bsmntbombdood> hopefully you are considering how to package this stuff
19:29:09 <AnMaster> ehird, pikhq: case, what about case?
19:29:09 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: One absurdly massive case.
19:29:16 <pikhq> They make large enough cases.
19:29:16 <ehird> biggest case in the universe
19:29:17 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, yes I said that about a minute ago before
19:29:29 <ehird> just put it in a cardboard box
19:29:34 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816102107
19:29:54 <ehird> pikhq: have you got the adapter?
19:30:09 <ehird> pikhq: I kind of feel like we should cut back on storage, you can grow the price there pretty much unbounded
19:30:12 <pikhq> Not yet; will soon.
19:31:02 <bsmntbombdood> actually, i think you could arrange that external raid controller in a tree
19:31:15 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: see, that's the thing
19:31:19 <ehird> you can have pretty much infinite storage
19:31:23 <ehird> for pretty much infinite dollars
19:31:26 <ehird> where's the challenge?
19:31:31 <ehird> it's just free ... anti-money
19:31:32 <pikhq> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816102080
19:31:41 <ehird> other components, now that takes skill to waste money
19:31:45 <bsmntbombdood> more interesting if you have to consider performance
19:31:51 <pikhq> Technically, it's a RAID card, but it can be used for JBOD.
19:32:40 <ehird> Time for the most expensive floppy drive
19:33:40 <ehird> pikhq: do you think we should cut back on the storage?
19:33:43 <ehird> It really is cheating
19:33:59 <pikhq> ehird: Replace those with those 2TB SATA drives.
19:34:11 <ehird> 2TB drives aren't expensive
19:34:11 <pikhq> We can at least have really silly stats while cutting back.
19:34:23 <ehird> pikhq: I think we should avoid spending much on storage
19:34:30 <ehird> $44k just on drives doesn't take any skill
19:34:33 <bsmntbombdood> you can get more expensive hard drives than the x25-e anyway
19:34:41 <ehird> also, priciest internal floppy is $7.99 so meh
19:34:45 <ehird> OK, let's cut back on storage.
19:34:47 <ehird> We still want the RAID cards.
19:35:01 <ehird> So we'll go for the most expensive non-solid-state drive.
19:35:01 -!- MizardX has joined.
19:35:14 <ehird> Hopefully that should only add a few thousand.
19:35:18 <pikhq> 2TB SAS card I think.
19:35:34 <pikhq> 4 per RAID card, and the onboard SATA wouldn't be used...
19:35:38 * ehird picks regular SATA drives.
19:35:41 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816102113
19:35:51 <ehird> STOP LINKING TO IT bsmntbombdood
19:35:55 <ehird> Storage is cheating. :P
19:36:12 <ehird> pikhq: 2TB regular speed drive, or 300GB 10k RPM drive. The latter is a velociraptor.
19:36:15 <ehird> I say the latter, because:
19:36:21 <ehird> 10k fucking RPM is loud.
19:36:53 <ehird> That's $13,339.42 in storage.
19:37:12 <ehird> pikhq: I think we'll need a fan per every 2 harddrives. We are putting these under load, right?
19:37:57 <ehird> $29.99 for a hard drive enclosure
19:38:00 <ehird> But we want fans too
19:38:38 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822332012
19:38:43 <ehird> pikhq: $22.99 for the most expensive HD cooler with a fan
19:38:46 <bsmntbombdood> i thought you could find an hdd more expensive than that
19:38:51 <ehird> $29.99 for the most expensive full stop, so not a big loss
19:38:58 <ehird> And it's ADJUSTABLE!
19:39:17 <ehird> pikhq: $1,333.42 on harddrive cooling.
19:39:35 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817122110
19:39:57 <ehird> pikhq: I'm going to find the most expensive, highest-voltage power supplies.
19:40:04 <ehird> Actually, yeah, more.
19:40:10 <ehird> pikhq: Uh... issue./
19:40:16 <ehird> 58 harddrives. They need power.
19:40:22 <ehird> How many can one power supply do?
19:40:28 <ehird> We will need an awful lot of power supplies.
19:40:33 <ehird> pikhq: Wanna cut back on storage?
19:40:37 <ehird> As in, actually less drives? :-P
19:40:45 <ehird> So we can actually get this thing to POST
19:41:03 <ehird> iStarUSA IS-2000R4H1UP 2000W Redundant 1U Server Power Supply - Retail
19:41:25 <ehird> pikhq: ... even so...
19:41:30 <ehird> We need a bunch to power 58 drives.
19:41:33 <ehird> As in, it won't fit in a case.
19:41:34 <pikhq> I guess we're getting the 10U rack case? :p
19:41:39 <ehird> Fuck, I mean, 58 drives won't fit in a fucking case.
19:41:41 <bsmntbombdood> you are going to have trouble getting the psu physically close enough to the drives
19:41:46 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Exactly!
19:41:51 <ehird> We need less drives, pikhq.
19:42:07 <ehird> We need less drives too.
19:42:12 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817147073
19:42:18 <ehird> This thing doesn't seem to have many ports
19:42:26 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Bah.
19:42:31 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Give us a rackmount drive bay then.
19:42:35 <ehird> None of that tricky RAID stuff.
19:42:37 <ehird> We've handled that.
19:42:59 <pikhq> ehird: I'm searching for cases.
19:43:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: $3,199 in RAID cards.
19:43:16 <ehird> Well, $139.99 extra
19:43:20 <ehird> For the bluray adapter RAID card thing
19:43:29 <ehird> pikhq: Srsly, I can find a case. :-P
19:43:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: ... hmm. We can do that later.
19:43:50 <pikhq> Huh. There's *actually* 9U cases.
19:44:16 <ehird> AnMaster: $thousands
19:44:18 <ehird> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811165161
19:44:27 <ehird> Does it come with case fans?
19:44:29 <ehird> We need case fans.
19:44:40 <AnMaster> ehird, sure the case is large enough?
19:44:49 <ehird> AnMaster: We're putting the drives in external RAID rack mounts.
19:44:59 <ehird> Apart from the 10 for the SATA/IDE.
19:45:03 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't "one unit" thing for one computer then
19:45:07 <ehird> I'm sure we can fit 10 + an adapter.
19:45:19 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: hell no!
19:45:22 <ehird> think of how heavy this will be
19:46:21 <AnMaster> ehird, the case is too small I think. And how would you mount the mobo in it
19:46:29 <ehird> It's not too small!
19:46:42 <pikhq> A 4U rackmount case alone can handle 24 disks.
19:46:49 <ehird> It's just 8 CPUs, some RAM, some RAM fans, some gigantic CPU fans and heatsinks and 10 drives.
19:46:59 <ehird> AnMaster: 35" x 24" x 23"
19:47:15 <ehird> How big do you think mobos are?
19:47:18 <bsmntbombdood> damn, the biggest rackmount cases newegg has are 4u
19:47:48 <ehird> AnMaster: the case is 88cm x 60cm x 58cm
19:48:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I just can't estimate distances in inches
19:48:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah. But. That's big, okay? :P
19:48:57 <bsmntbombdood> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811152124
19:49:01 <AnMaster> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811165161 says "Dimensions 35.44" x 24.22" x 23.63""?
19:49:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: We need something we can fit shit in.
19:49:08 -!- oklopol has joined.
19:49:09 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:50:03 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it doesn't matter if our computer burns
19:50:08 <ehird> as long as it gives the POST beep, we've won
19:50:55 -!- okloduk has joined.
19:53:27 -!- okloduk has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
19:53:51 -!- okloduk has joined.
19:54:26 <pikhq> I think we're done here.
19:54:38 <ehird> Well, yeah. We could go further but I've lost interest :P
19:54:47 <pikhq> $80,000 is enough. :p
19:55:44 <bsmntbombdood> and there is absolutely no practical use for this system
19:55:52 <ehird> Tomorrow I think we should go for "most powerful gaming computer ever". Then post a sale for it on an overclocking forum... plus a markup of a few hundred dollars.
19:55:56 <ehird> Watch the purchases roll in.
19:56:31 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: Yes there is.
19:56:40 <pikhq> Simulate a cluster.
19:57:12 <ehird> pikhq: cheaper to buy a cluster
19:57:27 <pikhq> But significantly less impressive and noisy.
19:57:45 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood, I beg to differ.
19:57:52 <pikhq> Blu-Ray disk *dumps*.
19:58:00 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: Dude, it's just 16TB.
19:58:11 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: You could get a bloody porn collection that big, easy. :P
19:58:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: watch 58 vids from the porn collection without buffering all at once.
19:59:02 <pikhq> ehird: Blu-ray vids.
19:59:09 <ehird> Blu-ray porn dumps.
19:59:30 <pikhq> Compile Gentoo in an hour.
20:00:11 <pikhq> And you underestimate how freaking speedy Hypertransport is. :p
20:00:12 <Deewiant> I'd say the buses are the bottleneck
20:00:27 <pikhq> Though, yeah, at this point HT is actually a bottleneck.
20:00:35 <pikhq> (and that's actually damned impressive)
20:01:02 <Deewiant> What are the drives attached to?
20:01:03 <ehird> Do the Opterons do hyperthreading?
20:01:09 <ehird> Deewiant: SATA, IDE, and various RAIDs.
20:01:10 <Deewiant> No, hyperthreading is an Intel thing.
20:01:12 <ehird> Two RAIDs, that is.
20:01:14 <pikhq> No. They do more CPUs.
20:01:34 <Deewiant> ehird: What is "a RAID" and what is it attached to
20:01:35 <fizzie> I would guess you can't saturate the whole hypertransport bus with just two PCIe 8x cards.
20:01:44 <ehird> A PCIe raid card, Deewiant.
20:01:54 <fizzie> That's 2*2000 MB/s in one direction.
20:02:05 <ehird> Deewiant: around $3k in total I think
20:02:07 <pikhq> There's also the onboard SATA.
20:02:11 <pikhq> Which I doubt is in the northbridge.
20:03:04 <pikhq> Since they're SAS cards driving SATA cards... A lot.
20:03:16 <Deewiant> Enough to saturate the PCI-E bus?
20:03:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: If I remember the model right. Six four-port interfaces.
20:03:43 <pikhq> Those PCIe cards are on a PCIe 4x slot.
20:04:14 <pikhq> No, the motherboards only offer 4x on those two slots.
20:04:16 <fizzie> Well, I haven't been following very closely.
20:04:27 <pikhq> (the 16x slots are being used for hypertransport)
20:04:40 <Deewiant> 24 drives will saturate that easily.
20:04:47 <fizzie> Well, then you definitely can't fill the whole hypertransport bus with disk activity.
20:05:08 <pikhq> Because the PCIe bus will be filled instead.
20:06:38 <fizzie> ./../include/mat_inc_d.H:13:22: error: iostream.h: No such file or directory
20:06:38 <fizzie> This is some annoyingly old code, I guess. Does removing "-pedantic" let it even a modern GCC find the silly "<foo.h> automagically imports std::" versions of C++ headers?
20:07:11 <ehird> lvcreate's failing
20:07:39 <ehird> I seem not to have device-mapper.
20:07:45 <ehird> I wonder if I need to modprobe something
20:07:53 <pikhq> modprobe device-mapper
20:08:02 <ehird> pikhq: Apparently I don't have that module.
20:08:05 <ehird> This is on a LiveCD.
20:08:12 <ehird> I'm trying to set up an LVM setup to install to.
20:08:13 <Deewiant> fizzie: Googling for that just finds people complaining about why their Hello world doesn't compile, and people telling them to use "using namespace std".
20:08:16 <ehird> I wonder if it is in a package.
20:08:35 <ehird> LVM: so intuitive it's unintuitive
20:08:42 <pikhq> Didn't realise; I've got the DM modules compiled in.
20:09:02 <ehird> fizzie: What do you need to do to have that loaded every time on bootup? I forget the file.
20:09:09 <pikhq> (easier than futzing with the initramfs to only have the modules I need to boot)
20:09:37 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:10:06 <fizzie> You can put "dm_mod" in /etc/modules, that works in many systems. Although I guess it should be automagically loaded by udev or something; I've certainly never had to manually modprobe it. (Though maybe it autoloads only if it finds LVM volumes or something.)
20:10:13 <ehird> Yay, I have /dev/sda1 = /boot and /dev/sda2 = physical volume of /dev/osdrive with /dev/osdrive/root, /dev/osdrive/home
20:10:20 <pikhq> fizzie, my root filesystem is on LVM.
20:10:39 <ehird> Although, I will probably ... hm.
20:10:47 <pikhq> Then putting dm_mod in /etc/modules does nothing.
20:10:50 <ehird> On my real SSD, I'll only have /boot and a physical volume of /dev/osdrive containing /dev/osdrive/root.
20:10:54 <ehird> Do I actually need LVM for that?
20:11:02 <ehird> The guide here suggests so
20:11:15 <pikhq> ehird: No, but LVM is sexy.
20:11:29 <ehird> pikhq: http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2009/02/20/aligning-filesystems-to-an-ssds-erase-block-size/
20:11:37 <ehird> It really seems to imply that LVM is needed to do the alignment.
20:11:38 <pikhq> Live migration of disks = Mmm.
20:12:11 <ehird> This thing is going to be horribly slow; putting SSD-tuned settings into a VM writing to a mechanical HD :-)
20:12:41 * ehird creates ext4 filesystems on the two osdrive things.
20:12:55 <ehird> pikhq: what do you think I should use for my 1gb /boot?
20:13:01 <ehird> I don't exactly need journaling on it
20:13:06 <ehird> Deewiant: it's what the blog post has
20:13:16 <Deewiant> Doesn't mean it's a good idea :-P
20:13:18 <ehird> Good enough for Theodore Ts'o, good enough for me. ;-)
20:13:34 <ehird> pikhq: What does journaling buy me on /boot?
20:13:35 <pikhq> Don't need it, but it's a good idea.
20:13:37 <Deewiant> Kernel developers probably have good reason to have a big /boot.
20:13:43 <ehird> Deewiant: True 'dat.
20:13:51 <Deewiant> Although I still think that's excessive. :-P
20:14:00 <pikhq> ehird: If you're writing to it when you crash, you haven't fucked it up.
20:14:24 <pikhq> Heck, mount that sucker with ordered; /boot is something you really don't want going.
20:14:40 <ehird> /boot isn't very vital.
20:14:52 <ehird> Can't boot? Stick in livecd, put kernel on there.
20:14:53 <Deewiant> Kind of sucks to find it broken when you reboot.
20:15:03 <ehird> Sure, I'm just saying it's not valuable
20:15:09 -!- okloduk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:15:16 <ehird> I wonder if the "stripe-width=32" will do anything on the olde-style-aligned /boot.
20:15:18 <Deewiant> It's not performance-sensitive either
20:15:23 <Deewiant> So there's no point in not journaling
20:15:28 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh but there is.
20:15:30 <ehird> Less writes to the SSD.
20:15:37 <ehird> Admittedly, that's barely anything :-)
20:15:47 <Deewiant> Thinking that way will just get you into trouble :-P
20:15:51 <ehird> I'll omit stripe-width. It's just /boot.
20:15:54 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, totally.
20:16:01 <ehird> I need to keep reminding myself that it's a fuckin' drive, it'll last years dammit.
20:16:12 <ehird> Worst case, SECURE ERASE the bugger and copy contents back on.
20:16:18 <pikhq> Just so long as you don't have swap on it.
20:16:29 <ehird> pikhq: I'm gonna have 12GB of RAM. No swap for me.
20:16:44 <Deewiant> ehird: Besides, SSDs are supposed to be better with SMART and such, knowing much more precisely when they're going to break.
20:16:55 <Deewiant> I don't know if that's the case in practice yet, though.
20:16:58 <ehird> It'd _slow_ me down... on the SSD, contribute to further wear and tear. On the mechanical HD? Iiiiiiiiiiiiiii'll geeeeeeeeeettt baccccccccccccck tooooooooooo yoooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuu.
20:17:05 <pikhq> And their failure mode consists of "Uh, you can't write there."
20:17:14 <ehird> SSDs are really resilient.
20:17:49 <Deewiant> Depends on the firmware, I guess.
20:17:53 <ehird> OK, /arch/setup time.
20:18:02 <fizzie> I have this on-a-compact-flash-card system, and I haven't even bothered to think about anything flash-specific on it, even though the write-cycle-handling thing is probably something really really primitive compared to an actual "SSD drive" type of product. (Well, except putting everything that's going to be written more often than daily into tmpfs.)
20:18:11 <pikhq> Deewiant: That's assuming that you're completely out of write cycles.
20:18:27 <ehird> fizzie: Pfft, I'm going to have lots of stuff being written on /.
20:18:35 <ehird> Everything but /tmp and /home/ehird/media, probably.
20:18:48 <ehird> Probably, linux will have fully working TRIM support when I get this.
20:18:51 <ehird> So it won't be a big deal.
20:20:45 <ehird> ^_^, the Arch install program let me make the LVM setup just fine.
20:21:01 <ehird> I'll have to manually edit fstab for /tmp, ofc.
20:21:10 <ehird> But not on this install.
20:21:28 <ehird> AnMaster: you said you need a guide for LVM?
20:22:54 <ehird> Heh, my HD isn't liking this alignment stuff it's doing.
20:23:00 <ehird> Krrrrrrrrrrrrrrrnkcluckcluckcluck.
20:23:26 <pikhq> The alignment stuff is for SSDs. ;)
20:23:33 <ehird> This is practice ;-)
20:23:48 <ehird> But the HD backing the VM storage isn't liking its antics.
20:24:06 -!- oklopol has joined.
20:24:44 <Deewiant> Unsurprisingly, doing SSD alignment on an HD isn't very smart :-P
20:25:00 <ehird> It's not going to hurt anything, I imagine. Just be slow... which the VM already is, right?
20:25:19 <ehird> I doubt my HD is the bottleneck
20:28:37 -!- jix has joined.
20:30:33 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on what you do with it exactly
20:31:24 <ehird> http://station-mir.ginnungagap.in.ua/fb2.png ← Thus proving that all tiling WM users really just want a framebuffer console.
20:32:32 <pikhq> ehird, if there was a good framebuffer web browser, I would use a framebuffer console. ;p
20:32:49 <ehird> pikhq: you can even make it display graphics iirc
20:33:10 <pikhq> elinks doesn't do framebuffer.
20:33:16 <pikhq> That would be Links2.
20:33:23 <ehird> just run it as a normal console app?
20:33:23 <pikhq> Which doesn't even support CSS2.
20:33:34 <pikhq> Then it doesn't handle graphics.
20:33:48 <pikhq> Or complex Javascript.
20:33:51 <ehird> pikhq: just add a handler to run a framebuffer graphcis display when you choose an image
20:34:00 <ehird> and sheesh, that's not very framebuffer
20:34:05 <pikhq> What I run currently is based on Gecko.
20:34:19 <pikhq> "Not very framebuffer"...
20:34:56 <pikhq> I guess it's not very "graphical" either.
20:35:16 <fizzie> For the longest time I used a framebuffer console for just about anything; I guess the web going so multimedia was the major issue.
20:35:58 <pikhq> There's also the bit about my graphics card not handling widescreen via VESA.
20:36:00 <ehird> Hooray for WMs and graphics and mice.
20:36:10 <fizzie> I guess you could theoretically speaking run Firefox or something using the directfb GTK backend.
20:36:20 <pikhq> But then you're replacing X.
20:36:28 <pikhq> For no good reason.
20:36:54 <ehird> pikhq: Apart from X sucking, you mean.
20:37:03 <fizzie> Well, only for the web-browser, and at least switching between the console and the "fake-X" would be faster.
20:37:41 <ehird> Hmm. Arch seems to build its own kernel except with a binary.
20:37:42 <fizzie> Admittedly my framebuffer-console-using days were back when my display hardware was a Matrox G400 card, which worked pretty nicely with matroxfb; I certainly wouldn't want to be stuck with vesafb.
20:38:07 <fizzie> (Also mplayer had that G400-specific video acceleration, obviating the need for Xv.)
20:38:39 <fizzie> Well, Gxxx-specific, anyway. It wasn't just the 400.
20:38:45 <pikhq> Really, the main reason not to use the framebuffer aside from multimedia web stuff is vesa-fb sucks.
20:38:46 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:39:00 <ehird> And because non graphical environments suck.
20:39:12 <pikhq> ehird, you're just dumb.
20:40:02 <fizzie> Deewiant: Hey, they're bringing Scheme back: http://www.cs.hut.fi/~scheme/course-description.html
20:40:04 <pikhq> Also, a framebuffer is very much a graphical environment.
20:40:19 <ehird> It's a bad graphical environment.
20:40:20 <pikhq> It's just not an exceptionally complex one.
20:40:24 <ehird> That is mostly used for text.
20:40:36 <Deewiant> Lilja's there, unsurprisingly; he's a Haskell guy
20:40:38 -!- Judofyr has joined.
20:41:04 <ehird> OK, GNU/Arch/LVM/FakeSSD/BSDinit/ls/cp/RichardStallman'sBlood bootup is go.
20:41:05 <Deewiant> Which might explain why lazy evaluation is explicitly a goal, too
20:41:23 <ehird> ... No. No it did not.
20:41:34 <Deewiant> Hmm, I wonder if I'll register for that
20:41:35 <ehird> It cannot find ze /dev/mapper/osdrive-root.
20:41:41 <ehird> fizzie: What's the file thing? modprobe?
20:41:45 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, laziness is in "latter part of SICP" too.
20:41:59 <ehird> Ha. Ha. Ha. The kernel rescue ramfs console has no ls.
20:42:01 <fizzie> ehird: If your root is on LVM, it's the initrd's responsibility for getting things loaded.
20:42:19 <ehird> fizzie: And it failed. It don't know shit about no /dev/mapper/blah.
20:42:33 <fizzie> Well, I don't know. If it's some Arch thing, then I definitely don't know.
20:42:51 <fizzie> I don't even know about Debian's initrd, since mkinitramfs or whatever has always built me a working one.
20:42:53 <ehird> I think it's just... Linux. :-P
20:43:08 <fizzie> No, the initrd contents are very distro-specific.
20:43:19 <ehird> I should probably boot up the live cd.
20:43:19 <fizzie> Or at least somewhat distro-specific.
20:43:31 <pikhq> fizzie: Debian's initrd has LVM stuff in it.
20:43:35 <ehird> pikhq: no pvscan on the ramfs
20:43:39 <ehird> maybe I should googol
20:43:45 <pikhq> And Gentoo requires you to use genkernel --do-lvm
20:43:47 <fizzie> pikhq: Yes, so I've assumed, since it works.
20:43:50 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
20:44:23 <ehird> pikhq: after reading that ssd alignment article, do you think LVM is needed? It seems to be but I can't figure out why
20:44:29 -!- oklopol has joined.
20:44:43 <pikhq> But LVM is sexy. :p
20:44:54 <ehird> I want to avoid it unless I need it for alignment :P
20:44:59 <ehird> Maybe I'll ask tedts'o.
20:50:18 <ehird> pikhq: the X25-M assumes 20GB of writes a day
20:50:28 <ehird> if you go over that it enables some sort of slowing down thing to extend its life
20:50:42 <ehird> i can't imagine many people actually write over 20gb/day...
20:51:07 <Deewiant> And "slowing down" probably means "only 50 times faster than an avergae HD"
20:52:45 <ehird> HI THERE YOU RIGHT ABOUT THE BLOCK SIZE I DONT KNOW ANY THING ANY THING ABOUT ERASING A BLOCK BECAUSE LESS BLOCKS SHORTANS THE SSD OR FLASH MEMORY SOO THE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY NOW ARE USEING 1 MB TOO 4 MB BLOCKS NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUD AND BESIDES THE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY CAN LAST OVER 150 YEARS AT 24 7 OPERATION THE FUTURE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY MAY HAVE INFINT READ WRITE
20:53:46 <pikhq> First, there's a key just to the left of the "a" key. Hit it. Second, here's a 1st grade basic spelling book.
20:54:07 <pikhq> And, hell, just to cover everything, here's a grammar textbook, too.
20:54:41 <ehird> pikhq: Try rapping that comment. It's designed for it, I mean "ANY THING ANY THING"? "SOO"?
20:54:44 <ehird> That's so filler to fit beats.
20:54:52 <ehird> HI THERE! YOU RIGHT ABOUT THE BLOCK SIZE
20:54:58 <ehird> KNOW ANYTHING ANYTHING
20:55:05 <pikhq> Obviously, it's meant to be yelled.
20:55:06 <ehird> ABOUT ERASING A BLOCK BECAUSE...
20:55:17 <ehird> LESS BLOCKS SHORTANS THE SSD OR FLASH
20:55:21 <ehird> MEMORY SOO THE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY
20:55:26 <ehird> NOW, ARE USEING 1 MB TOO
20:55:31 <ehird> 4 MB BLOCKS -- NOT THE OTHER WAY
20:55:36 <ehird> AROUND, AND, BESIDES
20:55:39 <ehird> THE SSD AND FLASH MEMORY CAN LAST
20:55:43 <ehird> OVER 150 YEARS AT 24 7 OPERATION
20:55:50 <ehird> THE FUTURE SSD AND FLASH
20:55:53 <ehird> MEMORY MAY HAVE INFINITE WRITE
20:56:00 <ehird> It's the SSD Cube Rap.
20:56:11 <pikhq> Like the time cube?
20:56:17 <ehird> lifthrasiir: Right you are.
20:57:46 <fizzie> INFINT is the int-typed constant for the +inf float value.
20:57:58 <ehird> So infint write life?
20:58:00 <ehird> That's a lot of writes.
20:58:11 <ehird> fizzie: how do you get +inf in C, again?
20:58:15 <fizzie> It's like MAXINT, only bigger.
20:58:27 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
20:58:42 * pikhq notes that Gene Ray, Doctor of Cubic has gone racist of late
20:58:56 <ehird> Deewiant: So int infint = (int)(1.0f/0);
20:58:57 <pikhq> Deewiant: That's NAN, not +inf.
20:59:11 -!- tombom_ has joined.
20:59:13 <fizzie> There's the macro INFINITY in <math.h>.
20:59:30 * pikhq shakes a fist at floats
20:59:47 <ehird> [ehird:~] % cc -x c /dev/stdin
20:59:47 <ehird> int main(void){printf("%i\n",(int)(1.0f/0));return 0;}
20:59:49 <ehird> /dev/stdin: In function ‘main’:
20:59:51 <ehird> /dev/stdin:1: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’
20:59:53 <ehird> /dev/stdin:1: warning: division by zero
20:59:55 <ehird> [ehird:~] % ./a.out
20:59:59 <ehird> So in the future, SSD & flash memory will be able to handle 2147483647 writes.
21:01:08 -!- tombom_ has quit (Client Quit).
21:01:52 <ehird> Anyone used vmware?
21:01:59 <fizzie> Actually "INFINITE" is defined rather funnily in C99: it expands to (float-typed) constant expression "representing positive or unsigned infinity, if available"; if there is no infinity, it expands to a float constant that overflows at translation time, and therefore forces a diagnostic.
21:02:19 <ehird> pikhq: How are its linux-guest video drivers etc?
21:02:30 <ehird> Parallels' don't install, I've had flakiness with VirtualBox's.
21:02:37 <pikhq> Not bad, though I don't recall them handling 3D.
21:03:08 <ehird> pikhq: Do you think they could handle the latest kernel and Xorg and etc? :P
21:03:08 <pikhq> IIRC, VMware's video drivers are part of X.
21:03:45 <ehird> pikhq: do you still have to pay for the version that lets you OMG CREATE YOUR OWN VM?
21:03:58 <pikhq> Yeah, but you can get a 30-day free trial for that.
21:04:09 <pikhq> And after that, you can use the player.
21:04:25 <ehird> pikhq: with Parallels you just had to give a unique email address and reactivate
21:04:29 <fizzie> Yes, I noticed Debian installing a xserver-xorg-video-vmware (as a part of xserver-xorg-video metapackage) recentlyish.
21:04:33 <ehird> penguinofthegods+youreallfuckingmorons@gmail.com, yum.
21:05:33 <fizzie> VMware server is also sort-of freewareish, and it can create VMs. I'm not quite sure what it lacks; probably quite a lot on the GUI and graphics-emulation side.
21:05:56 <ehird> Uhhh. You can't get VMWare Workstation for OS X.
21:06:06 <fizzie> (I also have no idea whether you can run vmware-server-created VMs with the player.)
21:06:38 <ehird> fizzie: vmware server wants 5 billion personal details from me >_<
21:06:42 <ehird> Maybe I'll try qemu.
21:06:48 <ehird> It can emulate regular vga
21:07:22 <fizzie> Qemu emulates the VMware SVGA "card".
21:07:43 <fizzie> "-vga type: "vmware" VMWare SVGA-II compatible adapter. Use it if you have sufficiently recent XFree86/XOrg server or Windows guest with a driver for this card."
21:08:03 <ehird> It also emulates a Cirrus noname card, which I use.
21:08:08 <ehird> Also, goddamn qemu is slow :-)
21:08:22 <pikhq> qemu is actually doing emulation.
21:08:36 <pikhq> Is there kqemu for OS X?
21:08:59 <fizzie> "preliminary ports to FreeBSD and MS Windows".
21:09:07 <fizzie> And no KVM either, of course.
21:09:16 <ehird> 'll try virtualbox
21:09:33 <ehird> User Mode Linux would be the fastest way to have a linux VM, I think.
21:09:43 <ehird> Doesn't it just patch up the kernel so it can be run as a userspace executable?
21:09:52 <ehird> At least that's what the name implies to me it should do.
21:10:48 <fizzie> Pretty much, yes. But it's a bit rough around the edges. I used UML for my virtual web-server before switching to Xen.
21:11:03 <ehird> Why would you virtualize your own server?
21:11:19 <ehird> Mm, VirtualBox is fast.
21:11:34 <fizzie> So that it's easier to play with snapshots and restoration and things like that.
21:11:44 <ehird> On a webserver? :P
21:12:09 <ehird> God damn VirtualBox is fast
21:12:29 <fizzie> Yes; the web server was a single LVM logical-volume snapshot, so I could just discard it if it went bad.
21:13:23 <pikhq> VirtualBox uses hardware virtualisation.
21:13:45 <pikhq> Of course it's fast. ;)
21:14:01 <ehird> So does Parallels.
21:14:04 <fizzie> Debian has a "virtualbox-ose-guest-x11" package if you want to run Linux+X guest in the VM; I'm not sure what other distributions include it too. I guess it does improve the integration a bit.
21:14:04 <ehird> But virtualbox is faster.
21:14:14 <ehird> Yes, it does improve it a lot
21:14:28 <ehird> Why didn't I try Arch before? I love it
21:15:28 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:17:05 <ehird> Modern electronic-rock music, inaugurated in the early 1960s, is, and always has been, a joint enterprise of British military intelligence and Satanic cults. On the one side, the Satanists control the major rock groups through drugs, sex, threats of violence, and even murder. On the other side, publicity, tours, and recordings are financed by record companies connected to British military intelligence circles. Both sides are intimately entwined with the
21:17:08 <ehird> biggest business in the world, the international drug trade.
21:20:06 <pikhq> ehird: Oooh, link?
21:20:12 <ehird> http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Miscellaneous/satanic_roots_of_rock.htm
21:20:15 <fizzie> Incidentally, can you do flock(2) advisory-locking on a filehandle that's actually an open(2)ed directory? I don't quite see why not, but I've been surprised before.
21:20:37 <ehird> pikhq: "Clearly, the Beatles' album was dedicated to Satanist Aleister Crowley (pictured to left). It was released 20 years, nearly to the day, after Crowley's death in 1947, and its title song began with the lyrics, "It was twenty years ago today..." The album's cover featured a picture of Crowley."
21:20:46 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://station-mir.ginnungagap.in.ua/fb2.png ← Thus proving that all tiling WM users really just want a framebuffer console. <-- wow, url for download?
21:21:06 * pikhq finds that hilarious
21:21:09 <ehird> http://www.brain-dump.org/projects/dvtm/
21:21:18 <ehird> AnMaster: to do the multi-split thing you have to put a dvtm in a dvtm
21:21:22 <ehird> so you can tile while you tile
21:21:38 <pikhq> ... Beatles. Picture of innocence.
21:21:42 <AnMaster> WARNING: MEME DETECTED! EVACUATE CHANNEL!
21:21:57 <pikhq> "I am the Walrus". Need I say more?
21:22:15 <fizzie> Ubuntu's new screen-profiles thing looks rather curious; ran into it when testing a diskless husk of a computer with Ubuntu live-cd-on-a-USB-stick.
21:22:19 <ehird> I am the Walrus, whereby "am" I mean "take" and "the Walrus" I mean "heroin".
21:22:32 -!- Hiato has quit ("Leaving.").
21:22:37 <pikhq> Also, "simple little tunes".
21:22:44 <pikhq> *Someone's* only listened to one album.
21:23:29 <pikhq> And... Wow. Claiming that the Beatle's popularity was a hoax?
21:23:32 <ehird> tomorrow never knows is the most simple tune ever
21:23:35 <pikhq> Someone cranked the crazy up to 11.
21:24:09 <fizzie> Up to X11. (Because that's obviously the pinnacle of crazy.)
21:24:59 <pikhq> Also, they claim Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band was dedicated to the promotion of psychedelic drugs.
21:25:20 <pikhq> Wrong album; that would be just about every late-career album *but* that one.
21:25:58 <pikhq> Sgt. Pepper's was merely dedicated to pschedelic rock.
21:27:50 <pikhq> Also, LSD was 100% legal at the time. :p
21:28:11 <pikhq> (made illegal in '67 or '68...)
21:31:40 <ehird> AnMaster: you should have forced me to get arch working, dammit :-D
21:31:50 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you get it working?
21:32:05 <ehird> It's a ruddy good distro.
21:32:18 <AnMaster> ehird, why? Then you would have hated it because I forced you to do it I bet ;P
21:33:24 <ehird> But seriously, it's nice.
21:33:30 <ehird> They should totally use apt though/
21:33:48 <AnMaster> I only ever had one issue with it's package manager.
21:33:55 <ehird> I haven't had any.
21:33:57 <ehird> I just like apt ;-)
21:34:11 <ehird> Although pacman's probably second-best.
21:34:12 <pikhq> Every binary distro should use apt; it's freaking awesome.
21:35:00 <pikhq> Especially with such features as debootstrap...
21:35:24 <pikhq> (so very easy to set up a Xen VM running Debian...)
21:35:30 <AnMaster> I ran into some issue about pacman complaining that it couldn't upgrade bash because "/usr/share/man/man1/bash.1.gz already exists". I haven't seen that bug for months though
21:36:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess you will get the occasional issue with arch. since it is so bleeding edge usually.
21:36:43 <ehird> I like bleeding edge.
21:36:46 <AnMaster> usually easy enough to fix, and the irc channel is very friendly and helpful
21:36:50 <ehird> I mean, I'm using ext4 for everything but /boot!
21:36:58 <ehird> It was just declared stable in... december?
21:37:18 <ehird> Yay, the "AUR" thing has virtualbox-additions as a package.
21:37:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I was thinking more about "gcc 4.3.3 in stable less than a week after it was released"
21:37:47 <AnMaster> ehird, tip for AUR: use yauort
21:37:50 <ehird> AnMaster: I think gcc releases are generally conservative in themselves
21:38:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I love tab complete :P
21:38:03 <ehird> Oops, forgot to change hostname.
21:38:05 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.).
21:38:17 <ehird> Okay: change hostname, add user account, install sudo, passwd -l root.
21:38:46 <AnMaster> augh. What happened to man passwd
21:39:08 <AnMaster> passwd - ändra användarlösenord
21:39:19 <AnMaster> no idea why I have the man page in Swedish at all...
21:39:38 <ehird> pacman -Sy sudo, la la la la la
21:39:57 <AnMaster> ok now I changed things in a different way
21:40:05 <AnMaster> passwd - Axndra anvAxndarlA9|senord
21:40:13 <AnMaster> I have no idea how that could happen
21:40:14 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: It should be fine. You considering it? I'd just buy the $600 160GB one if so; it'll be cheaper overall probably
21:40:22 <ehird> Also, it's not as if OS drives need an awful lot.
21:40:35 <AnMaster> it should say: "passwd - Ändra användarlösenord"
21:41:24 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I highly doubt it would be possible to notice the difference with an SSD>
21:41:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: No seeking.
21:41:38 <AnMaster> there is a matching command to su
21:41:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I just never noticed it before!
21:42:09 <AnMaster> of course I know about sgid binaries, like nethack
21:42:10 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: it'd probably end up more or less unnoticable for the cost
21:42:14 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
21:42:24 <ehird> nethack is setgid?
21:42:51 <ehird> yaourt isn't in arch :-D
21:42:58 <ehird> I guess I have to do what it does manually to get it
21:43:25 <AnMaster> ehird, so what you do is, get that manually and build it, then use yaourt for all future AUR package installs
21:43:41 <ehird> I'll need base-devel won't I
21:43:59 <AnMaster> don't remember what language yaourt is in
21:44:07 <ehird> might as well do it
21:44:09 <bsmntbombdood> ehird: http://hothardware.com/News/Intel-SSDs-RAID-0-A-Case-Study-In-Speed-Take-2/
21:44:17 <AnMaster> ehird, it is rather simple to build it anyway
21:44:27 <AnMaster> as normal user create a directory
21:44:27 -!- puzzlet has joined.
21:44:45 <AnMaster> wget or otherwise download the PKGBUILD and any other patch files listed at the AUR web page for it
21:44:50 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: The question is whether it is noticable in 90% of regular usage cases
21:45:16 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: So's our $80k system
21:45:19 <AnMaster> ehird, you will have a *i686.tar.gz (replace i686 with x86_64 or such if that is what you use)
21:45:28 <ehird> I'm reading the wiki for it AnMaster
21:45:30 <AnMaster> then you do sudo pacman -U thispackagefile
21:45:55 <Deewiant> You don't even need to install it the first time?
21:46:10 <Deewiant> All you need to do is get the binary working
21:46:13 <ehird> http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Yaourt
21:46:20 <ehird> Easy way is to install it via pacman
21:47:01 <ehird> ... it's just a few commands to install yaourt
21:47:20 <ehird> And it's a one-time thing; no sense cluttering the repo list
21:47:23 <AnMaster> of course, installing a package from source on gentoo is *even* easier
21:47:31 <Deewiant> AUR updates are more painful than non-AUR.
21:47:39 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: If you really have the cash, RAID 0 some of the X25-*E*s.
21:47:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Bah, fine.
21:47:47 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: That'll be superfast.
21:48:04 <pikhq> If you really have the cash, we speced a $80,000 machine.
21:48:31 <AnMaster> pikhq, can I see the full component list of it please
21:48:32 <ehird> It's useful for regular computing tasks as well as the crazy shit :P
21:48:39 <ehird> AnMaster: No, but I can give you one.
21:48:39 <pikhq> Probably far better to get 4 $20,000 machines or, I dunno, 80 $1,000 machines.
21:49:08 <ehird> AnMaster: http://pastie.org/472570.txt?key=gzff3jen8qjjkn1gx7brlg
21:49:16 <ehird> Doesn't include a power supply or case or well a lot of things
21:49:20 <ehird> But that's how far we got
21:49:27 <ehird> Then we got bored since it was trivial to spill money on the rest
21:49:41 <ehird> Deewiant: What does archlinuxfr contain apart from yaourt, then?
21:49:42 <AnMaster> 300GB VelociRaptor ($229.99) x 58 = $13,339.42
21:49:54 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but that came to $44k
21:49:57 <ehird> and we decided it was stupid
21:49:59 <Deewiant> ehird: I don't know how to query Pacman for that. I'm fairly sure I've got something else from it, too.
21:50:01 <ehird> since you can grow pretty much unbounded with them
21:50:15 <ehird> Deewiant: so how are AUR upgrades harder?
21:50:16 <AnMaster> ehird, you can grow unbounded with disks too
21:50:18 <pikhq> ehird: Though we'd need a less beefy PSU for them.
21:50:28 <pikhq> Which would actually matter with such a system.
21:50:32 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, but we just scaled down so it wasn't so much cheating
21:50:55 <ehird> nor is the power supply
21:51:01 <Deewiant> ehird: For one thing, each AUR package is update-checked separately, instead of just checking a database timestamp (or hash? Not sure how it works)
21:51:01 <pikhq> We could in principle have infinite storage, daisy-chaining external SAS RAID units.
21:51:12 <ehird> pikhq: yeah, exactly
21:51:14 <ehird> although the latency would suck
21:51:21 <ehird> but you can easily spend 5 gajillion dollars in storage
21:51:23 <pikhq> It would be horrendous.
21:51:27 <ehird> it's harder to spend it on, say, CPUs
21:51:27 <AnMaster> <pikhq> We could in principle have infinite storage, daisy-chaining external SAS RAID units.
21:51:27 <pikhq> But you could do it.
21:51:32 <ehird> and graphics cards
21:51:36 <pikhq> And get several exabytes.
21:51:47 <ehird> pikhq: How to run a turing machine: Daisy chain them as you go.
21:51:59 <ehird> The latency is so low that they'll have time to come in tomorrow and do it at their leisure.
21:52:06 <AnMaster> ehird, I said that two seconds before!
21:52:13 <ehird> AnMaster: I thought of it before, though
21:52:17 <ehird> but I wasn't at the keyboard
21:52:32 <ehird> AnMaster: about 3-4s brain-to-start-typing latency there
21:52:55 <AnMaster> but I was thinking of it as soon as pikhq mentioned it. "<pikhq> We could in principle have infinite storage, daisy-chaining external SAS RAID units."
21:54:04 <ehird> "error: could not register 'archlinuxfr' database (unexpected system error)" ← pretty cryptic error for "you didn't run me as root"
21:54:06 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, read the context kay?
21:54:12 <pikhq> So, I'm now imagining a freaking massive data center, filled with nothing but disks and a single system, hooked up to it via 8 SAS cables.
21:54:14 <ehird> AnMaster: How ironic
21:54:23 <Deewiant> ehird: yaourt uses sudo automatically.
21:54:29 <ehird> Deewiant: EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
21:54:30 <ehird> EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
21:54:30 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: We realise this.
21:54:32 <ehird> EEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
21:54:36 <ehird> Deewiant: MAKE IT STOP!!
21:54:41 <ehird> AnMaster: Automatically sudoing is the devil.
21:54:44 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: We're joking about means to create a UTM, man.
21:54:51 <AnMaster> ehird, it tells you in advance iirc
21:54:53 <Deewiant> I think I read somewhere that it actually tries both.
21:55:04 <AnMaster> ehird, it is very clear with what it does
21:55:14 <ehird> It just shouldn't.
21:55:27 <AnMaster> since you shouldn't build packages as root
21:55:47 <AnMaster> ehird, building as normal user is recommended
21:55:47 <ehird> It's exactly what I intend to do.
21:56:12 <ehird> Deewiant: Oh, so I only use all my home. Awesome.
21:56:18 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but makepkg uses fakeroot!
21:56:20 <ehird> It's not like all my valuable data is on there or anything.
21:56:25 <Deewiant> I don't know anything about fakeroot.
21:56:32 <ehird> I'm just going to use it as root.
21:56:38 <pikhq> Pretends to be root.
21:56:39 <AnMaster> anyway IMO it should just su to a temp user
21:56:52 <pikhq> Fails if it does anything actually unsafe.
21:57:00 <ehird> Yaourt is written in Bash.
21:57:06 <AnMaster> like it internally does "su - package-builder"
21:57:09 <ehird> I ran "yaourt" and I watched each line of help scroll by individually, one by one.
21:57:13 <ehird> That's how slow it is :-)
21:57:13 <pikhq> And I thought Portage was bad.
21:57:25 <pikhq> (Portage is written in Python, with attempts to rewrite it in C)
21:57:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, um... portage does change to a different user.
21:57:31 <ehird> "Runing [sic] yaourt as a non-privileged user requiers[sic] some entries in sudoers file:"
21:57:41 <pikhq> AnMaster: I was describing how fakeroot works.
21:57:43 <ehird> (tells you how to make pacman be sudoable by everyone, pretty much)
21:57:46 <Deewiant> time yaourt --help >/dev/null -> 0.13user 0.38system
21:57:48 <ehird> So by default it doesn't do that
21:57:56 <pikhq> Not what Portage does for its sandboxing.
21:58:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:58:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, similar results on my P3 even
21:58:14 <AnMaster> so ehird's computer suck badly we see,
21:58:18 <Deewiant> My point was that that is a long time.
21:58:21 <ehird> Yeah. My virtual computer sucks.
21:58:22 <Deewiant> 0.4 seconds to output a string?
21:58:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, portage sandboxes in two ways
21:58:32 <AnMaster> pikhq, 1) change to different user
21:58:40 <ehird> hmm, is there a command that decides between yaourt and pacman automagically?
21:58:49 <ehird> AnMaster: should just do as macports: chroot
21:59:15 <AnMaster> ehird, well you could write a module to do that I think
21:59:26 <pikhq> Deewiant: Uh... Portage isn't much better.
21:59:28 <ehird> you put the base libraries and all the packages' dependencies into a build directory, chroot in, su to low-powered user that still has rights to the whole chroot, build & install package
21:59:29 <AnMaster> ehird, however that needs to mirror stuff in the chroot
21:59:31 <pikhq> sudo emerge --help 1.29s user 0.16s system 98% cpu 1.463 total
21:59:33 <ehird> go out of chroot, copy files over
21:59:49 <Deewiant> pikhq: I was not comparing to Portage.
22:00:14 <ehird> 21:58 ehird: hmm, is there a command that decides between yaourt and pacman automagically?
22:00:23 <AnMaster> # time pmerge --help &>/dev/null
22:00:26 <ehird> sudo pacman -S xorg
22:00:36 <Deewiant> ldc --help-hidden is over three times as long, and outputs in 0.00 seconds.
22:00:41 <AnMaster> <ehird> 21:58 ehird: hmm, is there a command that decides between yaourt and pacman automagically?
22:00:56 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean like install deps for AUR packages when needed from the normal repos?
22:01:08 <ehird> AnMaster: that too, but also, 'foo -S packagethatsinmainrepo'
22:01:13 <ehird> 'foo -S packgeinaur'
22:01:13 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
22:01:20 <Deewiant> ehird: yaourt has a pacman-compatible interface.
22:01:23 <AnMaster> ehird, again yaourt can already do that
22:01:34 <ehird> More like slowterface.
22:01:45 <ehird> So why isn't yaourt the official pacman?
22:01:45 <Deewiant> The only thing I've found that pacman can do that yaourt can't is output a help string for a specific command.
22:01:48 <AnMaster> ehird, what in "interface" implies fast.
22:02:12 <AnMaster> ehird, interface is something slow. Like 200 baud serial.
22:02:39 <ehird> "I think the big peaks and valleys are a result of high erase/re-write latency of MLC flash. You don't see that with SLC actually."
22:02:41 <ehird> I wonder if that's true.
22:02:44 <ehird> It's not what Anand told me :P
22:03:04 <ehird> Anand. anandtech.com
22:03:13 * AnMaster tries to figure out what logical operation anand would be
22:03:19 <ehird> An and, obviously.
22:03:26 <ehird> see wut i did thur
22:04:02 <ehird> That's not a meme.
22:04:05 <ehird> That's just a cheesy phrase.
22:04:11 -!- Sgeo has joined.
22:04:25 <ehird> See what I did cheddar?
22:04:28 <ehird> No, that doesn't work.
22:04:40 <AnMaster> ehird, true, cheddar is too dry I guess.
22:05:04 <AnMaster> and I don't know the *English* names of other cheeses
22:05:28 <pikhq> Not even American "cheese"?
22:06:02 -!- nooga has joined.
22:07:42 <ehird> You know what creeps me out? Seeing CPUs. Too fucking small parts, dammit!
22:10:13 <ehird> WTF? I have no /etc/X11/xorg.conf
22:12:12 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:12:19 <AnMaster> ehird, latest X11 doesn't need it
22:12:27 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:12:40 <AnMaster> anyway: strongly garlic flavoured bread + butter + cheddar
22:14:03 <pikhq> How's about blackjack and hookers with that? Y'know what, screw the bread. And the blackjack! </bender>
22:15:11 <AnMaster> "</bender>" <-- heuristics detected popular culture reference but not found in database.
22:15:12 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:15:25 -!- oklopol has joined.
22:16:21 <pikhq> Another one of those shows that Fox thought "Oh, it's good! Cancel it!"
22:16:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, what does the game blackjack have to do with it.
22:16:46 <pikhq> AnMaster: Quoting Bender.
22:16:57 <pikhq> Well, channeling, rather.
22:16:59 <AnMaster> but what was the original context for it
22:17:14 <pikhq> Bender likes gambling.
22:17:23 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Consider reading curl -I slashdot.org on occasion.
22:17:23 <AnMaster> what do you mean "channeling"?
22:17:34 <pikhq> It's not quite a quote.
22:17:46 <pikhq> He never said anything about bread, specifically. ;)
22:17:53 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Consider reading curl --help.
22:18:13 <AnMaster> (when googling for the exact phrase)
22:18:32 <AnMaster> -I/--head Show document info only
22:18:42 <AnMaster> Deewiant, right that one is old
22:18:50 <AnMaster> X-Fry: Sweet justice! Sweet, juicy justice!
22:18:55 <AnMaster> I have seen other ones for other clients
22:19:09 <Deewiant> It doesn't depend on client, it varies by timestamp.
22:19:15 <Deewiant> I think it changes every minute or something.
22:19:30 <Deewiant> In any case, if you know of it, haven't you ever seen 'X-Bender'?
22:19:52 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:19:56 -!- puzzlet has joined.
22:20:02 <Deewiant> Do it a couple of times, then, until you do, and you will have.
22:20:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I knew they did strange things in their headers. But I never really cared about it
22:20:12 <AnMaster> X-Bender: Nothing like a warm fire and a super-soaker of fine cognac.
22:20:37 <Deewiant> They just serve up random Futurama quotes in X-<character quoted>.
22:20:41 <AnMaster> X-Fry: That doesn't look like an "L", unless you count lower case.
22:21:07 <pikhq> AnMaster: You should; it's brilliant.
22:21:19 <Deewiant> I didn't think it was that brilliant, actually. It was OK.
22:21:24 <AnMaster> pikhq, well maybe, I don't have a tv currently
22:21:40 <pikhq> Not currently aired.
22:21:46 <pikhq> So, TV won't help.
22:21:50 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't do pirate copies.
22:21:55 <pikhq> BitTorrent or DVDs.
22:22:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, actually I still have a VHS player somewhere. Just no TV
22:22:48 <pikhq> Hrm. Actually, Comedy Central recently started a new season. So, never mind.
22:22:57 <AnMaster> this VHS player is so old it has a *wired* remote
22:23:02 <AnMaster> as in a cable for the remote :D
22:24:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway buying the DVD would require me to figure out how to use a non-data dvd in my computer
22:25:06 <AnMaster> I guess mplayer could handle it
22:25:14 <Deewiant> It's a matter of putting it in the drive and pointing a player at it.
22:25:30 <AnMaster> Deewiant, but mplayer has arcane syntax for doing that sort of stuff
22:25:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, xine is messy. kmplayer is confusing.
22:25:58 <ehird> 22:12 AnMaster: ehird, latest X11 doesn't need it
22:25:58 <ehird> 22:12 AnMaster: auto config stuff
22:26:05 <AnMaster> ehird, yes. it uses hal and dbus
22:26:12 <Deewiant> I think he's right, X11 no longer needs a conf
22:26:19 <Deewiant> You can still make one, of course.
22:27:10 <ehird> Well, that's nice.
22:27:18 <AnMaster> I still use the config because 1) I already have a working one and I don't see a point in learning a different system 2) X auto config by hal had issues with my joystick before.
22:27:38 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's easy to do with mplay.
22:27:43 <AnMaster> issues == refused to let me use it for anything
22:28:07 * AnMaster wants to use axis 8 and 9 for mouse in X, and button 27 for click in X. The rest is left to the flight sim
22:28:17 <AnMaster> that works just fine with the good old joystick driver in X
22:29:07 <AnMaster> 8 and 9 are... uh, the two wheels on the throttle I think
22:29:27 <AnMaster> too many axises (axes?) to remember
22:29:40 <AnMaster> have it in the config for the flightsim :)
22:31:27 <AnMaster> anyway I saw some crazy cds recently. You know those old mini-format cds?
22:31:36 <AnMaster> I think they were discussed in here recently
22:31:54 <AnMaster> while mentioning that they broke slot-style cd drives
22:32:06 <AnMaster> anyway I saw one just last week
22:32:11 <ehird> This autoconfig thing is so awesome that it doesn't let me move my mouse.
22:32:14 <pikhq> A SACD is not a CD.
22:32:17 <ehird> How do I make it generate a skeleton xorg.conf?
22:33:00 <pikhq> It is physically a DVD, IIRC.
22:33:11 <AnMaster> pikhq, really? I saw this phrase oh the cover of a music cd: "OBS! Denna Super Audio CD går även att spela på en vanlig CD-spelare." <-- "Observe! This Super Audio CD can also be played on a normal CD player"
22:33:52 <fizzie> "Hybrid: The most popular of the three types, hybrid discs include a "Red Book" layer compatible with most legacy Compact Disc players, dubbed the "CD layer," and a 4.7 GB SACD layer, dubbed the "HD layer." It is not uncommon for hybrid discs to carry the "Compact Disc Digital Audio" logo to show that the disc is CDDA-compliant."'
22:34:28 <AnMaster> can a DVD player in a computer play the super audio layer in it?
22:34:37 <pikhq> Note that there is absolutely no Linux support for SACD.
22:34:44 <pikhq> With software support, yes.
22:34:45 <ehird> Deewiant: would you happen to know?
22:34:56 <pikhq> Software support is rare.
22:35:18 <pikhq> (and SACD uses 96 kHz to 192 kHz audio; most sound cards can't handle it)
22:35:22 <Deewiant> ehird: xorgconfig, or whatever it's called?
22:35:33 <AnMaster> pikhq, wouldn't it need a different laser type?
22:35:54 <fizzie> AnMaster: As said, the SACD layer is physically a DVD.
22:36:19 <fizzie> But it doesn't seem to use PCM sound at all; it's a one-bit delta-sigma encoding thing with 2822.4 kHz sampling rate.
22:36:39 <pikhq> SACD is DRM'd, and it has yet to be cracked.
22:36:42 <ehird> I highly doubt humans can distinguish better sampling than a CD.
22:37:04 <AnMaster> ehird, I was just interested in the music on it. that was all
22:37:08 <pikhq> ehird: In some cases, humans can distinguish 48 kHz.
22:37:12 <AnMaster> cd quality is good enough for me
22:37:16 <pikhq> But *that* is soley because of poor ADCs.
22:37:41 <ehird> Heck... Most people can't distinguish 128kbps MP3s from CD quality.
22:37:43 <ehird> Yes, that includes you
22:38:05 <fizzie> Infallopedia says that SACD's quality is comparable to a 20-bit PCM format and a 192 kHz sampling rate. Though it's not exactly the same thing.
22:38:08 <AnMaster> <ehird> Heck... Most people can't distinguish 128kbps MP3s from CD quality. <-- Depends on what music. For some types of music the difference is more noticable
22:38:10 <ehird> pikhq: Show the double-blind ABX test results, please.
22:38:11 <pikhq> 192 kbps MP3s are quite a bit more difficult to distinguish, though.
22:38:18 <ehird> pikhq: Otherwise you're talking shit.
22:38:35 <AnMaster> fizzie, "Your search - Infallopedia - did not match any documents."
22:38:38 <ehird> pikhq: I fully admit I cannot distinguish them.
22:38:43 <ehird> AnMaster: it was a portmaneuver
22:38:59 <AnMaster> I wasn't sure if it was an existing joke of wikipedia
22:39:04 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes; it's the only infallible thing around here.
22:39:16 <fizzie> Curious that it's not a term that's in use.
22:39:19 <ehird> I seem to have no xorgconfig.
22:39:21 <ehird> Maybe it's in sbin.
22:39:35 <ehird> AnMaster: to generate a skeleton xorg.conf
22:39:38 <ehird> so I can modify it
22:39:47 <ehird> My mouse doesn't work, AnMaster.
22:39:48 <AnMaster> ehird, you do it by editing HAL config
22:39:59 <ehird> I need to use the vboxmouse driver.
22:40:25 <AnMaster> anyway: don't ask me. I compiled xorg without hal support
22:40:32 <ehird> I'd be fine with evdev if I could use the mouse
22:40:36 <AnMaster> becuase I hate hal. With a passion.
22:40:47 <AnMaster> ehird, it wouldn't allow the nice integration thingy
22:40:54 <ehird> It's so workitude.
22:41:18 <ehird> AnMaster: (1) I don't care about the integration thingy (2) Because it's never broken for me, ever, and it means I do a lot less configuring.
22:41:52 <AnMaster> ehird, why do you want "vboxmouse" if you don't want the integration bit
22:41:58 -!- okloduk has joined.
22:42:00 <Deewiant> Hmm, I just got spam with the title "Stop sendingme this crap".
22:42:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Because I Cannot Move My Mouse.
22:42:04 <AnMaster> ehird, does lsusb show your mouse?
22:42:07 <ehird> It just stays there.
22:42:14 <ehird> And no, just two root hubs.
22:42:15 <Deewiant> I wonder if spam senders take titles from messages they receive?
22:42:22 <ehird> It's virtual. I don't know
22:42:33 <AnMaster> ehird, well it has to fake it to the guest *somehow*
22:42:53 <ehird> from dmesg|grep -i ps/2
22:43:11 <AnMaster> [ 8.075700] PNP: PS/2 Controller [PNP0303:PS2K] at 0x60,0x64 irq 1
22:43:11 <AnMaster> [ 8.093979] PNP: PS/2 appears to have AUX port disabled, if this is incorrect please boot with i8042.nopnp
22:43:11 <AnMaster> [ 8.132103] mice: PS/2 mouse device common for all mice
22:43:29 <AnMaster> (I don't have a PS/2 mouse, I do have a PS/2 keyboard though)
22:43:45 <ehird> psmouse serio1: ID: 10 00 64<6>input: ImExPS/2 Generic Explorer Mouse as /devices/platform/i8042/serio1/input/input5
22:43:50 <ehird> I typed that out by hand :P
22:44:37 <ehird> What did they ever do to you?
22:44:47 <AnMaster> ehird, begin using HAL for auto config dammit!
22:45:09 <ehird> Er... HAL is more unix than the old system.
22:45:16 <ehird> Do one thing, do it well, use it everywhere.
22:45:27 <AnMaster> ehird, traitors to true-"what UNIX was in practice"-kind
22:45:38 <ehird> It's not UNIXy in any form.
22:46:14 <Deewiant> Woot, signed up for a Scheme course.
22:46:26 <ehird> Deewiant: Have you read your SICP today?
22:46:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: Maybe I should do it too.
22:46:53 <ehird> Deewiant: Read SICP
22:47:00 <ehird> AnMaster: International Christian Chamber of Commerce?
22:47:00 <fizzie> Deewiant: The IRC channel they mention is kind of quiet.
22:47:02 <Deewiant> ehird: It's the course book, so I might, partly.
22:47:07 <AnMaster> nter- Client Communications Conventions
22:47:11 <AnMaster> Inter- Client Communications Conventions
22:47:12 <ehird> Deewiant: *insert /prog/snake*
22:47:14 <fizzie> Only chapters 3-5 for the course, though.
22:47:17 <Deewiant> fizzie: I've been meaning to learn a Lisp anyway, so I figured I might as well do it thus. :-)
22:47:36 <ehird> Well read 1-2 then!
22:47:38 <ehird> You can never have enough
22:47:40 <AnMaster> ehird, it must have been mentioned in that "unix haters handbook" you love to refer to
22:48:00 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm pretty sure UNIX-HATERS would be aligned with a HAL-like system more than duplicate, incompatible configurations
22:48:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: "the material to read for the exam are the chapters 3-5 of SICP"; I guess chapters 1+2 could be relevant for the homeworks, though.
22:48:26 <AnMaster> the old system works better in practise
22:48:30 <ehird> AnMaster: that's called bugs, not design deficiencies. And it works for me.
22:48:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: I did the old Scheme course, but this one seems to be the Extended Edition.
22:48:36 <Deewiant> "You can bring the coursebook to the exam."
22:48:43 <AnMaster> ehird, so you can move your mouse now?
22:48:54 <Deewiant> But then, SICP isn't very useful in that sense, I guess, so it makes sense.
22:49:08 <ehird> AnMaster: In case you haven't realised, VMs are not the typical use case of Linux.
22:49:16 <ehird> Besides, it'll just be flicking a switch somewhere
22:49:28 -!- okloduk has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
22:50:27 <ehird> Can xorg deal with a partial xorg.conf?
22:50:30 <ehird> i.e., just specifying one thing?
22:51:22 <fizzie> "procedural abstraction, data abstraction, functional programming, concurrency, streams and lazy evaluation, programming language interpreters, logic programming, register machines and machine language programming"; that's a rather wide-ranging list; though it's pretty directly from the book.
22:51:31 <AnMaster> ehird, but you need to turn off HAL to define any input devices at all iirc
22:51:40 <AnMaster> or maybe you can tell HAL to ignore the mouse
22:51:42 <ehird> Now THAT is stupid.
22:52:01 <Deewiant> I'm pretty sure you can tell HAL to ignore the mouse.
22:52:21 <AnMaster> ehird, read (short) http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/x/x11/xorg-server-1.5-upgrade-guide.xml
22:52:32 <AnMaster> it describes the differences to between classical and HAL
22:54:21 <ehird> Alas, my keyboard is dead too, it seems.
22:55:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I only had troubles with HAL.
22:55:35 <Deewiant> I've had no troubles with HAL.
22:55:44 <ehird> Ditto. Apart from this minor VM-related one.
22:56:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I would call "keyboard and mouse not working" rather "major"
22:56:21 <ehird> ... in Yet Another Virtual Machine.
22:58:30 <nooga> it's smaller than my unix flavoured kernel
22:58:43 -!- okloduk has joined.
22:58:44 <nooga> and does something... unlike mine kernel ;p
22:59:10 <nooga> i've got stupid problem
23:00:30 <nooga> i'm writing SADOL editor, which should highlight parameters called by function under cursor
23:00:59 <nooga> but i've got problem finding proper AST node using cursor coordinates
23:01:57 * AnMaster so loves when non-Swedish websites misses åäö when mentioning Swedish things resulting in hilarious results
23:02:12 -!- M0ny has quit ("When you get sad stop being sad and be awesome instead.").
23:02:30 <nooga> insulting re insults
23:02:48 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out).
23:03:10 <AnMaster> like a piece of music called "Förklädd gud" (translation: God in Disguise) was written as "Forkladd gud" meaning something like "traveled grease god"
23:03:26 <AnMaster> though the latter is gramatically incorrect.
23:03:49 <AnMaster> kladd isn't grease really hm. grease is "kladdig" though
23:04:00 <AnMaster> kladd is more like sticky/greasy/messy
23:04:22 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:04:35 <AnMaster> well anyway the result was hilarious
23:04:53 -!- GregorR has changed nick to TraveledGreaseGo.
23:05:05 <comex> btw, ehird, can you at least support bayes becoming active so it doesn't get deregistered?>
23:05:11 -!- TraveledGreaseGo has changed nick to TravelGreaseGod.
23:05:31 <ehird> it'd mess with quorum.
23:05:59 <AnMaster> wow another one in same site: "öron" (translation: ears) was changed to "oron" (translation: the worry)
23:06:20 -!- jix has quit ("leaving").
23:06:59 <AnMaster> över meaning over, that being the correct preposition to use in there in Swedish
23:07:21 <comex> even latin has such a phenomenon in only a few cases
23:08:40 <AnMaster> comex, ö is not o with dots in Swedish. The difference is as large as between v and w or, a and e in English
23:09:00 <AnMaster> it is a completely different letter in the alphabet
23:09:12 <AnMaster> pronounced completely differently
23:09:50 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ö
23:09:59 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ö#Letter_.C3.96_in_Scandinavian_languages to be specific
23:10:14 <AnMaster> comex, the same is true for a vs å and a vs ä
23:10:23 <AnMaster> they are three totally different letters
23:10:54 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Å#Scandinavian_languages
23:11:15 <comex> The short version represents IPA /ɔ/.
23:11:17 <AnMaster> comex, wikipedia says: "In Swedish, Ö is pronounced [øː] (e.g. "öl"), [œ] (e.g. "kött") or [ɶ] (e.g. "dörr")."
23:11:18 <comex> well that's sure helpful
23:11:38 <AnMaster> comex, I can't make a recording atm. People sleeping in next room.
23:12:08 <AnMaster> see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ä#As_an_independent_letter
23:12:24 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
23:12:40 -!- oklopol has joined.
23:13:18 <comex> I'm removing support for multiple players, it just makes everything 10 times more complicated
23:14:39 <comex> I'm just being off-topic :p
23:15:39 <comex> but this is the first real-w-orld thing I've written in haskell
23:15:41 <comex> (don't tell ehird)
23:15:57 <AnMaster> and you already highlighted him ;P
23:16:09 <ehird> But I'm well aware of comex's haskell incompetence.
23:16:33 <comex> AnMaster: yep, it's a joke
23:16:47 -!- Judofyr has joined.
23:17:20 <AnMaster> The configuration of dvtm is done by creating a custom config.h
23:17:20 <AnMaster> and (re)compiling the source code.
23:17:43 <nooga> same in Polish...: łącze -> link, lacze -> flat tires
23:17:47 <ehird> But seriously, it's not hard to parse an ini.
23:17:54 <ehird> AnMaster: it does the exact same.
23:17:58 <ehird> Seems that dvtm = dwm for framebuffer.
23:18:30 <nooga> robić łaskę -> to show mercy, robić laske -> to do a blowjob
23:18:54 <ehird> http://grx.no/kb/2008/08/17/notes-on-setting-up-arch-linux-in-virtualbox-with-awesome-wm/
23:18:58 <ehird> This should be helpful.
23:19:02 <ehird> AnMaster: now -that'd- be overkill.
23:19:21 <AnMaster> ehird, with a plugin architecture of course :P
23:19:34 <ehird> I'm probably going to use pekwm
23:19:58 -!- okloduk has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:23:14 <AnMaster> ehird, you can mix layouts in one window?
23:23:24 <ehird> pekwm isn't tiling
23:24:17 <ehird> You just run dvtm in dvtm.
23:25:04 <AnMaster> TravelGreaseGod it was a non-exact translation anyway
23:25:35 <nooga> guys, i've got such thing
23:25:37 <nooga> dbg: parsing "+12"
23:25:38 <nooga> dbg: ["+", (0,0), [1, (1,0)], [2, (2,0)]]
23:26:05 <nooga> (x,y) are coordinates of node in text field
23:27:07 <nooga> and i'd like to be able to find a node which has specified coordinates without traversing the tree every time
23:27:47 * ehird forgets how to unmount a loopback mount
23:28:04 <ehird> sudo umount . says it's busy...
23:28:29 <nooga> i need to map the tree, somehow
23:28:51 <comex> ehird, why doesn't my del key work in ghci
23:29:00 <ehird> comex: because ur doin it rong
23:29:44 <AnMaster> the correct way to say "traveled grease god" would be "berest smörjgud"
23:29:53 <AnMaster> though that is a lossy translation too
23:30:11 <AnMaster> loosy? lossy? losy? I can never remember that
23:31:53 <AnMaster> though actually "berest" is more like "well-traveled"
23:32:12 <AnMaster> but "for" is more like "yesterday I traveled somewhere"
23:33:47 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:34:12 <AnMaster> anyway important hint for the future: Should you ever need to write a Swedish name, song title or other word: Don't drop any dots. In the best case it will look rather silly. In the worst case it will either be incomprehensible or mean something totally different.
23:35:14 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:35:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, you might want to read the scrollback over silly dropping dots and rings from Swedish words
23:36:00 <AnMaster> it is the reason GregorR is now known as TravelGreaseGod
23:38:25 <nooga> my cat walks on my keyboard
23:38:54 * oerjan still wonders how they managed to name SATA
23:39:06 <oerjan> it seems - a little too close to something :D
23:39:21 <ehird> oerjan: am I missing something
23:40:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I think he was thinking of satan
23:40:31 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----###
23:40:53 <oerjan> oh no, AnMaster _is_ satan
23:41:16 <oerjan> i see three prongs, q.e.d.
23:41:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, err my fire poker dowstairs *does* have three prongs
23:41:41 <AnMaster> yes there is a fireplace in this house
23:42:17 <oerjan> always good to have for tormenting souls, i guess
23:42:21 <AnMaster> in fact two of them, and the fire poker at one of them has two prongs, and the fire poker at the other one has three prongs
23:42:38 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:44:08 <AnMaster> this is even more hilarios at same site
23:44:21 <AnMaster> "önskekonsert" -> "onskekonsert"
23:44:55 <AnMaster> the former means "wished for/dream concert", the second means "evil concert"
23:45:06 <AnMaster> err concert or concerto in English?
23:45:51 <AnMaster> ehird, does both mean the same?
23:45:56 <ehird> AnMaster: how do you unmount a loop back?
23:46:07 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on how you loop mounted it
23:46:21 <AnMaster> mount -o loop /file /directory
23:46:25 <oerjan> a concerto is probably a concert that's been too much in italy
23:46:31 <ehird> oh, I was in the dir
23:46:50 <ehird> umount . obviously fails
23:47:09 <AnMaster> ehird, if you used losetup and then mount you would need to umount then use losetup to remove it
23:47:34 <AnMaster> but with -o loop it is just umount
23:47:42 <oerjan> if you use SATA for solving SAT, then you're really on thin ice
23:48:01 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
23:48:16 <oerjan> also a school test in the US, i think
23:48:26 * AnMaster waits for "hell frozen over joke"
23:48:29 <oerjan> AnMaster: continuation of previous
23:48:43 <pikhq> The more common of the two college entrance exams.
23:48:56 <oerjan> hell is not frozen over, we have spring here in trøndelag now
23:48:58 <ehird> school test in UK too
23:49:18 <pikhq> ehird: Different test.
23:49:32 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:49:33 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway
23:51:01 <nooga> also in A (with this tiny circle upon)
23:51:16 <oerjan> it's less than an hour's drive from trondheim, and just before our airport
23:51:46 <oerjan> and also the north-south trains pass through it, obviously
23:51:51 <AnMaster> oerjan, with godsexpeditionen too!
23:51:54 <nooga> with that stupid statue
23:52:11 <oerjan> i'm sure we have many :D
23:52:26 <nooga> that one with this "viking" near the water
23:52:30 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: has your comp arrived yet?
23:52:47 <oerjan> near the water? huh, i don't recall that
23:53:03 <oerjan> there is of course a viking on the central square
23:53:14 <oerjan> being a depiction of the city's founder
23:53:47 <oerjan> it's a bit over the top, really tall
23:54:28 <nooga> http://www.trondheim-photos.com/?k=view_photo&u=statues-5
23:54:59 <nooga> maybe i've got it on my photos
23:55:34 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure where that is
23:55:48 <oerjan> probably one of the newly built areas
23:56:57 <fizzie> The words "central square" reminded me of a thing that's not really especially funny, but I'll mention it anyway; there was at the central-most spot in Lieksa (a tiny "city" of about 13k people nowadays, pretty close to the Finland-Russia border) this: http://zem.fi/g2/d/1033-2/img_2707.jpg -- the website URL would be, if translated to English, "www.connectiontonature.com".
23:57:38 -!- amca has joined.
23:59:40 -!- amca has quit (Client Quit).