00:04:39 <oerjan> <satan> oh no, my room stopped burning. now there's ice on the walls.
00:05:59 <oerjan> (not an actual quote btw)
00:06:52 <oerjan> although that would be a subverted trope, i guess by your explanation this is already at undead horse stage
00:08:52 <ehird> Another thing that basically sums up bash:
00:08:53 <ehird> < robT> Name ONE thing that your windows comp can do that my MAC cant
00:08:54 <ehird> < bawss> Right click.
00:08:59 <ehird> (one of the 100 top rated quotes)
00:09:23 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
00:14:01 <ehird> First my middle clicks don't work sometimes, now my left clicks.
00:14:10 <ehird> This cheapo mouse has a ~2 year shelf life.
00:14:15 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal").
00:16:25 <pikhq> Maybe when I upgrade stuff, I should get a new mouse.
00:16:35 <pikhq> It's a bit... Old.
00:17:22 <pikhq> I think it's from my first Linux box, which was old 7 years ago.
00:17:54 <ehird> I'm pretty much throwing out everything w/ my new box, since I don't really have much attachment to anything. It's just an imac+apple kb+crap mouse
00:19:11 <pikhq> I've got an absurdly old CD burner that I plan to keep, since I'm too cheap to bother upgrading that.
00:20:25 <pikhq> I have a DVD-ROM drive.
00:20:26 <ehird> I'm probably going to nab some hw from this iMac for safekeeping...
00:20:38 <pikhq> My CD burner does CD-Rs at 12x and CD-RWs at 4x.
00:20:42 <ehird> e.g., there's 2.5gb of ddr2 ram in here.
00:20:48 <ehird> Could be useful somewhere.
00:20:57 <ehird> pikhq: Not even a dvd burner? :P
00:21:14 <pikhq> Say, is there a typing test that does *not* involve trying to transcribe something?
00:21:26 * pikhq notes that he is at his slowest when trying to copy text
00:21:35 <pikhq> ehird: Not even a DVD burner.
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00:45:30 <GregorR> What idiot thought the new food pyramid was a good idea?
00:45:44 <ehird> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/camerahouse.jpg this is meant to be photoshopped-looking can someone please explain
00:46:20 <GregorR> Anybody over five can draw the old one. The new one is like "You may eat 0.05 radians of oils"
00:48:30 <ehird> pikhq: is that re: my image or GregorR
00:48:35 <ehird> i cannot figure out the image
00:48:55 <GregorR> I can't see anything photoshoppish in that image
00:49:19 * pikhq wonders what the fuck the USDA was thinking with "MyPyramid".
00:50:26 <pikhq> Also, they've got the proportions all wrong. You need to eat at least 0.5 radians of caffeine-bearing beverages
00:51:13 <GregorR> pikhq: It's actually a circle, the normally-displayed "pyramid" section is actually like a pie slice of that, the remainder is caffeine.
00:51:32 <pikhq> That's more sensible.
00:52:25 <pikhq> Apparently, the USDA thinks that pyramid is simpler than the previous design.
00:52:39 <GregorR> That's because the remainder of their circle is pot.
00:54:30 <GregorR> It's part of a balanced diet.
00:55:13 <ehird> GregorR: What about moxie?
00:55:21 <ehird> Is the remainder actually moxie+pot
00:55:45 <GregorR> That is too perfect to be considered part of the circle. It is above the circle.
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01:03:04 <pikhq> It is in fact the sphere.
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01:42:09 <oklofok> <ais523_> is it O(n!), or worse? <<< it's (n^2)!
01:43:01 <oklofok> i have no idea about verysort, but it's much too fast to be n!.
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02:43:22 <oklofok> Gracenotes: http://www.vjn.fi/pb/p316313563.txt
02:43:42 <oklofok> just something i hacked up after a night without sleep.
02:44:17 <Gracenotes> ah, sleepless nights :D yeah. how does it perform?
02:44:44 <oklofok> an answer to you, and a correction to what i said to ais earlier
02:44:54 <oklofok> it is at least exponential
02:45:06 <oklofok> because you explicitly create all the possible orders.
02:46:01 <oklofok> except that both are slow, bogosort is much closer to bubblesort than this one
02:46:15 <Gracenotes> well, randomly picking an order vs. generating all of them..
02:46:30 <oklofok> oh right bogosort, i was thinking bozosort.
02:46:58 <oklofok> bogosort is somewhat similar, except the generate all permutations part isn't the pont
02:47:58 <oklofok> you randomly take two permutations of the list, and make them fight, which means picking a random pair of adjacent elements from both, A wins B if A's pair is in order, and B's is not
02:48:39 <oklofok> this part is fairly fast, and it's probably polynomial on n!, which lead me astray earlier
02:49:07 <Gracenotes> hm. Although... another alternative might be to start with a string for each letter, then continue building the permutation only if it's in order, until you reach something the length of the string
02:49:22 <Gracenotes> huh. this might require a bit of book-keeping.
02:49:59 <oklofok> are we sorting lists of letters?
02:50:38 <Gracenotes> this is an entirely different idea. sort of.
02:51:10 <oklofok> well. that's just depth-first search :P
02:51:38 <Gracenotes> if you have [2, 1, 3], start with [1], [2], and [3]. All sorted strings of length 2, from those: [1, 3], [1, 2] and [2, 3]
02:51:54 <Gracenotes> and from those, only [1, 2, 3] survives
02:52:13 <Gracenotes> hm. the interesting thing is... there is a lot of shared work here.
02:52:23 <Gracenotes> but yeah, I see that's not what you're doing
02:53:05 <Gracenotes> wait, it is actually O(n^n). unless you share work of course.
02:53:28 <Gracenotes> but it's not quite that amount, because many branches are eliminated early
02:53:56 <Gracenotes> but, yes. so how many iterations did your algorithm take for various input sizes?
02:54:40 <oklofok> incrediblysort never sorts a list of size 4
02:56:26 <oklofok> well theta (minimum possible) is n!, but the probability of ever getting it sorted is pretty much 9
02:57:06 <pikhq> I'm still fond of quantum bogosort.
02:57:33 <Gracenotes> unfortunately quantum bogosort would probably have the same time as regular bogosort
02:57:50 <pikhq> Allow me to describe the algorithm.
02:58:10 <pikhq> Randomise the list (thereby creating a universe for every permutation of the list).
02:58:19 <pikhq> If the list is not sorted, destroy the universe.
02:58:32 <Gracenotes> explain, in detail, your process for universe selection.
02:58:52 <pikhq> We don't. Multiple worlds theory.
03:00:08 <Gracenotes> but such a check requires observation, and if it turns out the list is not sorted, you should probably give up
03:00:40 <Gracenotes> destroying the universe won't make the one universe where the list *is* sorted any more accessible
03:01:01 <oklofok> Gracenotes: if you don't understand the theorem, just let it go, it's not worth thinking about anyway.
03:01:24 <oklofok> you're completely misunderstanding the idea (read: joke)
03:01:44 <Gracenotes> okay, and even so, you can't select the particular universe where the list is sorted >:(
03:01:53 <pikhq> Gracenotes, all such universes exist simultaneously.
03:02:01 <Gracenotes> of course I get it's a joke, but I don't think it's that funny...
03:02:13 <pikhq> By destroying the universes that don't have a sorted list, you ensure the existing universes have a sorted list.
03:02:58 <Gracenotes> although, the existing universes have a sorted list whether or not you destroy the other ones :)
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03:03:05 <pikhq> Or, in other words: o <-- the joke v-- You
03:03:48 <Gracenotes> excuse me for killing it. I feel no remorse...
03:03:55 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: rubbish
03:04:04 <pikhq> Feel remorse! In the form of pain!
03:04:50 * pikhq wishes urxvt would, y'know, *switch fonts* for non-ASCII characters
03:05:35 <oerjan> oklofok: so does your face!
03:05:38 <pikhq> My client is capable of rendering those characters.
03:05:42 <pikhq> However, it refuses to.
03:05:57 <oklofok> oerjan: well your face does your mum
03:06:26 <oklofok> or at least that's what *i* wish
03:07:20 <oerjan> that glacolitic spidery ha is quite a character
03:07:41 <Gracenotes> I mean, I did implement a quantum simulator after all...
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03:08:32 <fungot> blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ...too much output!
03:08:55 <oklofok> oerjan: that's one blah too many
03:09:14 <Gracenotes> oh noes. I think my feet are turning into hobbit feet! *looks at hair*
03:09:31 <Gracenotes> of course, I am 6 feet tall, so I don't think it's that likely
03:09:38 <oerjan> oklofok: rubbish, they form a perfect rectangle
03:10:11 <oerjan> admittedly the 13 might be bad luck
03:10:20 <oklofok> Gracenotes: what's that in human units?
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03:10:42 <oklofok> oerjan: i meant the infinite amount of blahäs.
03:10:43 <Gracenotes> I use "foot" as a human unit, personally
03:11:11 <oklofok> Gracenotes: no i think you just used it was relevant to the joke, because feet aren't in use anymore
03:11:14 <oerjan> oklofok: ic. well then it is also aleph-zero blahs too many
03:11:56 <oklofok> i should really move to hex, so i could say the same for base 10
03:12:08 <Gracenotes> oklofok: I am personally a fan of metric adoption. but I find most people on the internet don't use it on English IRC networks
03:12:09 <oerjan> oklofok: feet aren't in use anymore? this explains the obesity epidemic
03:12:46 <Gracenotes> at least it's better than "stone" as a unit of weight
03:12:49 <pikhq> oklofok: Approximately 3 metres.
03:13:25 <pikhq> 3 is a bit... Tall.
03:13:55 <oklofok> Gracenotes: i'm finnish, therefore it's all i know :)
03:14:15 <pikhq> oklofok: Better than being American.
03:14:17 <Gracenotes> mm. metric still is a pretty arbitrary system
03:14:21 <pikhq> Most Americans only know American units.
03:14:34 <Gracenotes> but at least it's a bit more consistent
03:14:36 <oklofok> well i do *know* how much a foot is.
03:14:50 <pikhq> Gracenotes: Metric is more sensible only in that it's consistent.
03:15:02 <Gracenotes> for people who grow up in societies that use base 10 number systems
03:15:08 <oklofok> i had other reasons for asking.
03:15:15 <pikhq> Which is a vast improvement over imperial units.
03:15:35 <Gracenotes> I will clandestinely teach my children to use the metric system! mwahaha
03:15:48 <oklofok> base 10 is not really inherent to SI
03:16:13 * pikhq keeps in mind not to be on IRC when at dad's house
03:16:31 <pikhq> My dad is about as anti-homosexual as they come.
03:16:47 <oklofok> pikhq: Gracenotes is not the only gay on this channel, in case you haven't noticed
03:16:57 <Gracenotes> it's okay. I won't hack your computer and email him links to lemonparty
03:16:59 <pikhq> oklofok: I actually didn't.
03:17:15 <pikhq> Largely because I don't give a flying fuck.
03:17:52 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: *That*, however, is disturbing.
03:18:05 <oklofok> pikhq: right, it's just some are a bit hard not to notice (psygnisfive), but i guess you don't read absolutely everything that happens here.
03:18:45 <oklofok> (maybe hard to remember, in case you don't care)
03:18:48 <pikhq> And also, I really, truly could care less; it's a complete non-issue. ;)
03:18:58 <oerjan> Gracenotes: rule 34 overrules that rule, surely
03:19:16 <oklofok> depends on shock sites, many are just clips from fetish porn, and not even the interesting parts.
03:19:20 <pikhq> oerjan: Rule 34 states that there is porn of it, it does *not* state that the porn actually has an audience.
03:20:01 <pikhq> Of course, most of the porn without an audience is not for a shock site...
03:20:09 <pikhq> It's merely bad porn.
03:20:18 <oklofok> pikhq: And also, I really, truly could care less; it's a complete non-issue. ;) <<< i tend to consider every detail about irc people important, including what holes they prefer.
03:20:20 <bsmntbombdood> and rules one and two demonstrate that you are all posers
03:20:50 <pikhq> oklofok: That's quite disturbing.
03:21:04 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood: wait, what are those?
03:21:14 <pikhq> bsmntbombdood: 4chan is the asshole of the Internet. ;)
03:47:48 <oerjan> LATTIFY A CONSERVATION
03:48:34 <pikhq> RATIFY A CONVERSATION
03:49:26 <oerjan> NATIONAL IFFY RAT CONVICT
03:55:13 <oerjan> Gracenotes: i thought we were finished with the sex talk for a while
04:01:44 <pikhq> ELECTRONS ARE BETTER THOUGH.
04:06:53 <pikhq> You're a Haskelsexual!
04:07:15 <pikhq> Don't you know that God Hates Haskells?
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04:08:42 <Gracenotes> We're here, we're Haskell programmers, get used to it!
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04:08:46 <Gracenotes> We're here, we're Haskell programmers, get used to it!
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04:30:34 <oerjan> nää, ä liöö y nähööltään viellysnäämmin
04:31:40 <oklofok> oerjan: you do a better fake finnish than psygnisfive :P
04:31:40 <oerjan> hm ääliö actually is a word
04:32:19 <pikhq> Na... Nananana Katamari Damashii...
04:32:37 <oklofok> i don't see ä an ö right, so had to take a guess which of those weird things means which
04:32:57 <oerjan> nope, the other one :D
04:33:35 <oerjan> so clearly if you have so much ööliä that you can't read properly, you get ääliö
04:35:24 <oerjan> you mean they actually told you the truth? what a stupid use of a foreign expletitive
04:35:42 <oklofok> bsmntbombdood_: no no when you swap the umlauted chars.
04:36:17 <oerjan> oklofok: erm you guessed wrong, incidentally
04:37:17 <oerjan> oh i misunderstood you
04:37:55 <oerjan> bsmntbombdood_: what an ääliö, have you had too much ööliä?
04:37:55 <oklofok> the same four, but probably not as well as i used to :<
04:38:25 <oklofok> some lojban too ofc, and starting latin next fall
04:39:46 <oklofok> well i know some swedish and german
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04:52:58 <bsmntbombdood_> some guy was gonna come in here and talk finnish to you
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10:54:03 <fizzie> (Time for some hardware upgrades.)
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14:23:43 <asiekierka> also ACK'd Oerjan's changes to dead64, just need to upload them
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15:08:09 <AnMaster> asiekierka, tested Deewiant's dobela (sp?) interpreter yet
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15:39:23 <asiekierka> "dead64" or DEADFISH 64 is my interpreter of Deadfish made in C64 Basic
15:39:38 <asiekierka> The "light" version is on the esolang wiki
15:39:49 <asiekierka> and in external links is the version with a subset of Deadfish~
15:40:01 <asiekierka> added some more stuff to it by now and fixed it more than the esolang wiki version
15:40:43 <asiekierka> v2 has the behavior mostly fixed (thanks to Oerjan) and it's more optimized and smaller than v1
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15:56:31 <asiekierka> v3 has some statistics, help and another way to end a program (interactively)
15:56:36 <asiekierka> I may write a non-interactive version though
15:57:07 <asiekierka> which would probably support the stuffs that an interactive version can't
15:57:15 <asiekierka> and may be the first interpreter of Deadfish~
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16:33:51 <asiekierka> because it worked by now, loading will probably be worse though :(
16:34:39 <pikhq> The appropriate response is ACK.
16:34:49 <pikhq> Read some RFCs, man!
16:35:05 <pikhq> At least read the TCP RFC.
16:35:49 <GregorR> pikhq: The appropriate response is SYN/ACK :P
16:36:03 <pikhq> GregorR: Oh. You're right.
16:36:43 <GregorR> (GAWD I'M SO F***ING FUNNY)
16:44:58 <asiekierka> oh god, DEADFISH 64 is already a riding mess on wheels
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16:58:25 <AnMaster> asiekierka, I'm going to test that dobela thingy
16:58:33 <AnMaster> what was the spelling of it now again
16:59:49 <AnMaster> [Nr] Name Type Addr Off Size ES Flags Lk Inf Al
16:59:49 <AnMaster> [ 0] NULL 0000000000000000 00000000 00000000 0 0 0 0
16:59:49 <AnMaster> [ 1] SNST STRTAB 0000000000000000 00000138 0000000e 0 0 0 1
16:59:49 <AnMaster> [ 2] dobelx64 PROGBITS 0000000000000146 00000146 000010f7 0 WAX 0 0 8
17:00:06 <AnMaster> usually the seconds are like .text .data .rodata or whatever
17:00:35 <Deewiant> I know what GCC calls them; I have no obligation to call them that.
17:00:45 <AnMaster> Deewiant, I thought that was standard
17:00:59 <Deewiant> It is, fairly, but the names are completely irrelevant.
17:01:03 <AnMaster> also what do the different sections contain there
17:01:21 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Do (like in don't) - Bee - Lah
17:01:39 <asiekierka> also, I finished loading/saving in Deadfish 64
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17:01:44 <asiekierka> so it supports the non-interactive mode
17:02:01 <AnMaster> Deewiant, my system complains about writable stack in it
17:02:13 <Deewiant> It contains self-modifying code.
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17:22:07 <asiekierka> Augh, I can't implement {} with my design
17:23:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how do you represent the playfield?
17:23:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is it size limited??
17:23:34 <Deewiant> Yes, it's allocated before any execution.
17:23:54 <Deewiant> DOBELA programs can't grow, so that's fine.
17:24:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, they can't? Huh. That's very odd
17:24:24 <Deewiant> Only dots can travel outside the initial bounds, and dots without commands can't do anything.
17:24:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, so you discard them then?
17:25:54 <Deewiant> C doesn't wraparound at every } either.
17:26:07 <asiekierka> AnMaster: If I ever do a redesign it won't be in C64 BASIC
17:26:30 <Deewiant> It'd not be very useful but it could.
17:27:34 <AnMaster> would mean you needed goto a lot
17:27:51 <Deewiant> No, you just need to write "return" explicitly.
17:28:03 <AnMaster> if (blah) { code here; goto afterif; } afterif: morecode; ...
17:28:30 <Deewiant> For some reason I was thinking of only functions and loops.
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17:29:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, { ... } would be same as the legacy-C while(true) { ... }
17:29:07 <Deewiant> For those, the thing to do is "if (blah) { code here; something that makes blah false }"
17:29:33 <ehird> returning from a function jumps to its }
17:29:40 <ehird> therefore, return; doesn't help
17:29:43 <ehird> it just restarts the function
17:29:49 <ehird> ... tail recursion!
17:30:06 <Deewiant> I don't see return working like that
17:30:15 <AnMaster> you would need to longjump out of every function
17:30:30 <Deewiant> I suppose you can, although you need to explain where the return value goes
17:30:38 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, falling off the end of a function into } does the same as what return; does
17:30:47 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in a global variable?
17:30:48 <Deewiant> return; yes, but return 0; not.
17:30:49 <ehird> and since {} wrapping is our main paradigm, return jumping to } instead of vise-versa is the best choice
17:30:57 <ehird> also, } is just return garbage; :-P
17:31:06 <Deewiant> That's implementation-dependant.
17:31:29 <ehird> void foo() { printf("hi\n"); }
17:31:36 <ehird> that doesn't abort()
17:33:05 <asiekierka> omg, V1 was 426 bytes, V2 was 390 bytes, V3 was 1071 bytes and V4 is 2207 bytes
17:33:12 <asiekierka> GOD WHAT HAS THIS WORLD GONE TO!? TT__TT
17:33:53 <asiekierka> If I ever make V5, it will either be in Assembler or a minor update
17:34:05 <AnMaster> asiekierka, rewrite it in C64 asm yeah
17:34:16 <asiekierka> AnMaster: Later. *sigh* I'm already tired working on this mess
17:34:50 <asiekierka> (There are programs to do so, but... just don't. It has been... "sqrt(hacked)".)
17:34:58 <AnMaster> it's basic, why would I look at the source...
17:35:12 <asiekierka> I'm just telling you to not because it has GOTOs on top of other GOTOs
17:37:44 <asiekierka> Basically. V2 = the C64 BASIC source in the Deadfish article + some other miscellany code
17:44:43 <asiekierka> asienet.site40.net/dead64v4.txt (The problem is it was the same piece of code being hacked over and over)
17:45:24 <asiekierka> I will make a "lite" version though, which just cuts out the source of the extra features
17:46:55 <asiekierka> And i DO know it's possible to clean it up a bit
17:48:37 <ehird> asienet.site40.net/dead64v4.txt is empty.
17:49:19 <GregorR> ehird: That's just how easy it is to implement Deadfish.
17:50:39 -!- oerjan has joined.
17:52:52 <AnMaster> oerjan, IWC today was "groan, oh my"
17:52:57 <asiekierka> thanks for fixing my C64 implementation
17:53:30 <asiekierka> and went as far as to add loading/saving
17:53:44 <oerjan> i fixed the boundary checks but i didn't make the prompting entirely compatible
17:54:04 <oerjan> many other interpreters don't follow that slavishly
17:54:10 <asiekierka> oerjan: Also, AFAIK, you forgot to fix i, i, s, s, s
17:54:12 <oerjan> the >> before each command
17:55:15 <oerjan> every time it hits 256 regardless of reason, from above or below, it's reset
17:55:48 <oerjan> btw the C interpreter is the standard
17:56:07 <ehird> "It's more likely because those that write theorem provers want to be able to verify parts of the theorem provers implementation themselves within in a theorem prover."
17:56:21 <ehird> ;; Xzibit theorem prover
17:56:39 <asiekierka> I think I did read somewhere that "the accumulator ranges from 0 to 255 unless it is squared"
17:56:54 <ehird> asiekierka: that's valid, sort of
17:56:59 <ehird> it just means you can go over 255 with squaring
17:57:00 <oerjan> asiekierka: well that means that you cannot escape the range without squaring
17:57:22 <oerjan> but once you've square _beyond_ 256 things go haywire
17:57:35 <oerjan> asiekierka: you need to be more clever to escape
17:58:04 <oerjan> (and is probably the minimal way to escape
17:58:28 <oerjan> (as in, escaping _through_ the minimal value)
17:58:51 <oerjan> yeah, something like that, and when you decrement to 256 it becomes instantly 0
17:58:59 <asiekierka> Citing the author of Deadfish from the Deadfish~ article
17:59:00 <asiekierka> Like its predecessor, the accumulator ranges from 0 to 255 unless it is squared!
17:59:45 <asiekierka> "Predecessor" refers to Deadfish original
17:59:47 <oerjan> asiekierka: it should be noted that many [weasel word] suspect the author did not originally know how to make it do what he want
18:00:23 <asiekierka> Do you refer to the C implementation or to the idea
18:00:26 <oerjan> so in essence all the rest of us took the joke of running with translating a broken program faithfully
18:01:01 <oerjan> except i think the Ruby and ZiziQue interpreters don't, and maybe some of the ones i cannot read
18:01:06 <asiekierka> I think I will make V5 in BASIC which can run in both "compatibility mode" and "rightful" mode
18:01:16 <oerjan> (i don't know ruby enough to try to correct it)
18:01:44 <asiekierka> While I want to have a correct implementation, too
18:01:45 <oerjan> well it would be much closer with my changes from yesterday
18:02:46 <asiekierka> Also, where the hell can I find out anything about ZiZiQue
18:04:00 <AnMaster> so, if I make a bf-to-C compiler, coded in scheme (basic optimization, but not the fancy stuff probably), what should I call it?
18:04:45 <oerjan> i don't know about ZiziQue
18:06:32 <oerjan> AnMaster: a language referenced among the Deadfish examples on the wiki
18:06:55 <AnMaster> that is the only reference I can find to it when I google
18:07:00 <oerjan> AnMaster: oh it's that number again
18:07:05 <asiekierka> let's search who added the ZiZiQue interpretation
18:07:27 <AnMaster> oerjan, yes. But the wrong theme!
18:07:34 <oerjan> AnMaster: has happened before
18:08:05 <ehird> zizique was a lang that used to be on the wiki
18:08:12 <ehird> i guess it was deleted for not really being very esoteric
18:08:18 <oerjan> but this time it was rather forewarned
18:08:22 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you remember about it
18:08:30 <ehird> AnMaster: nothing much
18:08:41 <ehird> the syntax was pretty, the paradigm novel
18:08:58 <ehird> maybe not that one
18:09:16 <ehird> zzo msut have learned it
18:09:19 <ehird> it is the language I was thinking of
18:09:21 <oerjan> <ehird> the syntax was pretty, the paradigm novel <<< you're just messing with us, right?
18:09:47 <ehird> i distinctly recall it
18:10:14 <AnMaster> ehird, and no source outside the wiki?
18:10:26 <ehird> AnMaster: the page used to exist
18:10:29 <ehird> so an admin can recover it
18:10:35 <ehird> it was designed for making text adventures
18:10:37 <ehird> interactive fiction
18:10:46 <ehird> must be defunct now
18:11:07 <oerjan> oh so it was not zzo38's own language?
18:12:30 * oerjan fixes the C64 Deadfish for proper squaring behavior
18:13:25 -!- tombom has joined.
18:13:36 <GregorR> MUST ... FIND ... ZIZIQUE :P
18:13:45 <ehird> GregorR: Step 1. Become wiki admin
18:13:49 <AnMaster> asiekierka, make it V6, would accelerate faster.
18:13:54 <ehird> I am become wiki admin, destroyer of worlds.
18:13:59 <asiekierka> AnMaster: V5 is planned to be in Assembler
18:14:01 <ehird> AnMaster: no no no, pull a slackware, skip to V7
18:14:37 <AnMaster> ehird, odd number of cylinders aren't common afaik hm.
18:14:42 <GregorR> ehird: I find it weird that normal users can't read old pages at all >_>
18:14:52 <ehird> GregorR: it's for reasons of national security
18:14:59 <ehird> also, because they're usually spam etc
18:15:11 <ehird> Huh, Factor's new C++ VM (well, Slava just added some C++ features to the C) isn't half bad. Nicest C++ code I've eve seen.
18:15:38 <AnMaster> ehird, that won't last for long
18:16:00 <ehird> he's pretty much finished the C++ transformation
18:16:07 <ehird> and he isn't using any features that cause a run-time penalty
18:16:17 <ehird> so it's basically fine
18:16:28 <oerjan> hm zizique was _not_ linked when zzo38 first included it in deadfish
18:16:38 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, you start with good intentions, and it might be nice and such even... But soon some messy C++ feature will slither in...
18:16:49 <ehird> AnMaster: this only applies if the programmer is a retard.
18:16:57 <AnMaster> it happened in every C project going C++ "but only with the non-messy bits" that I have seen
18:17:00 <ehird> by the same logic, Lisp is a bad language to use because the programmer will get tricksy.
18:17:12 <ehird> Fact is, if they get tricksy, they're a bad programmer.
18:17:48 <pikhq> This is why I suggest using Lightweight C++.
18:17:49 <AnMaster> ehird, you misunderstood me I think.
18:17:55 <ehird> AnMaster: no, I didn't
18:17:58 <pikhq> It *is* C++ without the really screwy features. ;)
18:18:30 <ehird> pikhq: it's also obscure, probably not maintained to well, and you could just use the parts of C++ it has in C++ and ignore the rest
18:18:45 <ehird> http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~sxanth/lwc/bot.png
18:18:49 <AnMaster> I'm saying that "Lightweight C++" is possible. Just that on any larger open source project that will sooner or later turn into messy C++. A few years at most before the mess start showing up.
18:18:49 <pikhq> ehird: It has somewhat different semantics.
18:19:02 <ehird> AnMaster: lightweight c++ is a separate project.
18:19:10 <pikhq> Since it's mostly implemented as a preprocessor.
18:19:12 <ehird> and you're talking absolute bullshit
18:19:16 <pikhq> (very complex one, but still)
18:19:17 <ehird> you can only get bad code if you use bad features
18:19:22 <AnMaster> ehird, oh thought it meant just C++ with less features. It was not easy to see that.
18:19:24 <ehird> you only use bad features if you're a bad programmer
18:19:38 <AnMaster> but sure if the implementation of C++ that you use lacks the bad stuff you can prevent it
18:19:39 <oerjan> wait what, _i_ made ZiziQue a link?
18:19:40 <GregorR> There are no bad features, only bad programmers.
18:19:42 <ehird> there is not some inherent property of s/gcc/g++/ that causes the code to start to decay into suckiness
18:19:49 <ehird> saying so is simply stupid
18:19:52 <pikhq> So it has slightly screwy name mangling.
18:20:25 <AnMaster> ehird, http://students.ceid.upatras.gr/~sxanth/lwc/bot.png <-- ugh. GCC specfic :P
18:20:55 <asiekierka> GregorR: What if I make a feature to instantly delete the BIOS and it only can be used in a WHILE loop?
18:20:56 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KL_AMD_5x86.jpg ← lol@printing designed for windows 95 on an actual cpu
18:21:27 <AnMaster> fixed non-cruft link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/KL_AMD_5x86.jpg
18:21:30 <GregorR> asiekierka: Somebody out there NEEDS that feature maaaaaaaaaaaaaan :P
18:21:45 <asiekierka> GregorR: Oh, and it can't be used by virus authors. Or hackers.
18:21:53 <pikhq> AnMaster: What about that is GCC-specific?
18:22:02 <GregorR> asiekierka: Those are bad programmers :P
18:22:09 <asiekierka> And to use it you need to run it on your own PC.
18:22:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is using it to put some functions in link once sections
18:23:05 <pikhq> That is such an ugly hack.
18:23:17 <ehird> Lightweight C++: C++ without the bad parts and with bad parts
18:23:17 <pikhq> Using the __section__ attribute...
18:23:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, worse than dynamic scope return thing in bash?
18:23:38 <pikhq> ehird: That's the hackishness of the generated code.
18:23:48 <AnMaster> so, any good naming suggestions for that project. I didn't like asiekierka's suggestion
18:24:07 <pikhq> It basically wants to be a GCC frontend, but does C code instead of RTL.
18:24:12 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> so, if I make a bf-to-C compiler, coded in scheme (basic optimization, but not the fancy stuff probably), what should I call it?
18:24:33 <ehird> AnMaster: thiscodeisboundtobehorriblescheme
18:25:02 <ehird> AnMaster: call it "Not PFUCK."
18:25:13 <ehird> ~/src/Not PFUCK..scm
18:25:26 <pikhq> And it is, in fact, not PFUCK.
18:25:28 <ehird> PFUCK is pikhq's brainfuck→c compiler written in PEBBLE
18:25:36 <ehird> pikhq didn't want you to call it PFUCK
18:25:47 <ehird> So you should call it "Not PFUCK.". Verbatim. :-P
18:25:47 <asiekierka> Did anyone make a BF-to-C compiler in BF
18:25:55 <AnMaster> that is a pun on S-expressions even
18:26:03 <pikhq> Scheme's Fucked Up Compiler, Kay?
18:26:04 <ehird> Hey, it's not my fault you're dirty.
18:26:22 <AnMaster> pikhq, S-expressions (but move - two forward) and then SFUCK
18:26:25 <ehird> PFUCK: PEBBLE Fucking Up Crappy Kode.
18:26:45 <pikhq> I wrote mine in PEBBLE instead, just because I was lazy....
18:26:55 <pikhq> (PEBBLE, of course, compiles to Brainfuck)
18:26:58 <AnMaster> so no one is going to say that pun was brilliant?
18:28:01 <ehird> i wish it was the 90s. and we had Pentiums. With MMX and 3DNow!.
18:28:28 <AnMaster> apart from the technicality that pentium never had 3dnow, why do you want that
18:28:28 <ehird> pentiums never had 3DNow!
18:28:40 <ehird> AnMaster: because everything was a lot simpler
18:28:54 <ehird> if you said "watercooling" to a computer user they'd think you meant filling the computer with tap water :-)
18:29:08 <ehird> I love !s in names.
18:29:17 <ehird> Protip: They're pronounced as the click.
18:29:27 <pikhq> In fact, AMD still *has* 3DNow; Intel never did. Whee.
18:29:29 <ehird> So 3DNow! is 3DNow<click>
18:29:43 <ehird> Comments about the impossibility of pronouncing that will be gleefully ignored.
18:29:57 <ehird> Wanna hear a joke?
18:30:03 <GregorR> WTFBBQ, ZiziQue isn't even in the DB dump
18:30:04 <AnMaster> flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 syscall nx mmxext fxsr_opt lm 3dnowext 3dnow rep_good pni lahf_lm
18:30:21 <asiekierka> GregorR: Someone didn't really want ZiziQue
18:30:36 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I64 is a rather interesting architecture.
18:31:00 <AnMaster> the real joke is of course that "Itanium" is hard to remember how to spell
18:31:01 <GregorR> 'taws ahead of its (and relevant compilers') time
18:31:16 <ehird> and it may have some good ideas, but all I've heard points to "slow, inefficient, not powerful enough, and ditching IA32 was stupid"
18:31:20 <ehird> which make perfect sense :P
18:31:24 <ehird> and Nehalem is easy to spell
18:31:26 <GregorR> And Itanium is Titanium minus 'T'
18:31:29 <asiekierka> 6502 is the best architecture IN TEH WORLDZ!!!111ONE
18:31:31 <ehird> easier if you're a native I guess
18:31:35 <ehird> asiekierka: 4004 bitch
18:31:50 <ehird> The Intel i860 (also 80860) was a RISC microprocessor from Intel, first released in 1989.
18:31:56 <ehird> Intel did RISC chips? :-D
18:31:57 <GregorR> ehird: Well, the problem is that it had the potential to be ultrafast, but not with anything real compilers could make.
18:32:08 <GregorR> ehird: Intel did ARM for a while :P
18:32:15 <ehird> But this was custom
18:32:31 <GregorR> Damn, I really want to find ZiziQue now X-P
18:32:56 <ehird> The Pentium name is used for a current-generation processor even today.
18:32:59 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_Dual-Core
18:33:18 <ehird> GregorR: Well, Pentium's never meant much.
18:33:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> The Intel i860 (also 80860) was a RISC microprocessor from Intel, first released in 1989.
18:33:35 <AnMaster> <ehird> Intel did RISC chips? :-D
18:33:37 <ehird> Apart from "It's from Intel and you can put it in a desktop and it's based on IA32."
18:33:44 <AnMaster> strange, I read about this just a few days ago
18:33:57 <ehird> RISC: i860 · i960 · StrongARM · IXP1200 · XScale
18:34:21 <ehird> none of which they still make
18:34:25 <ehird> last one was sold in 2006
18:34:32 <ehird> The XScale, a microprocessor core, is Marvell's (formerly Intel's) implementation of the fifth generation of the ARM architecture, and consists of several distinct families: IXP, IXC, IOP, PXA and CE (see more below). Intel sold the PXA family to Marvell Technology Group in June 2006[1].
18:34:50 <AnMaster> Marvell, sounds like a network card?
18:34:54 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IXP1200 I assume this isn't still made
18:35:03 <GregorR> I seriously don't understand why Intel sold ARM.
18:35:04 <ehird> Marvell (NASDAQ: MRVL) is an American producer of storage, communications and consumer semiconductor products. Their products can be found in a range of applications:
18:35:05 <ehird> Consumer: Technologies include Wireless LAN, Voice over IP (VoIP), system controllers, power management, storage products and embedded CPUs.
18:35:07 <asiekierka> yup, sounds like a network card company
18:35:08 <ehird> Enterprise: Marvell produces silicon devices for network switching, routers and wireless networking. Marvell was the first to develop merchant Gigabit Ethernet switching products.
18:35:11 <ehird> Storage: Marvell designed the first Gigabit all-CMOS read channel, the first Gigabit-capable system-on-a-chip and the first Serial ATA interface. These products are found in both disk drive and network-attached storage systems.
18:35:14 <asiekierka> and I think I even had one from Marvell back then
18:35:15 <ehird> ARM isn't Intel's, GregorR
18:35:24 <GregorR> ehird: It effectively was for quite a while.
18:35:34 <ehird> The StrongARM family are faster versions of the existing ARM processors with a somewhat different instruction set. Clocked at 206MHz they can perform up to 235 MIPS (1.14 MIPS/MHz). They have limited software compatibility with the earlier ARM families due to their separate caches for data and instructions, which causes self-modifying code to fail.
18:35:37 <ehird> Harvard architechture :-D
18:35:55 <asiekierka> Why didn't anyone do Hello World! in Genome
18:36:18 <AnMaster> ehird, err, x86_(32|64) CPUs have that too nowdays
18:36:33 <AnMaster> Harvard architechture for the caches I mean
18:36:37 <ehird> Yeah it's not actually a Harvard architecture
18:36:42 <ehird> It just looks like it at first sight
18:36:50 * pikhq notes that Intel still makes Itanium chips
18:37:05 <GregorR> pikhq: If they don't, who will? :P
18:37:16 <GregorR> pikhq: They are used for e.g. scientific computing.
18:37:20 <ehird> itanium is used in super computers and shit
18:37:21 <oerjan> GregorR: i am not quite convinced ehird remembers correctly that ZiziQue was ever on the wiki
18:37:31 <ehird> oerjan: If it wasn't, it definitely existed
18:37:31 <oerjan> i may have linked it by error
18:37:33 <AnMaster> difference is that x86 goes to great length to be compatible with previous versions. Thus it does support self modifying code by flushing the IL1 when the same part of memory is written to
18:37:34 <GregorR> oerjan: Idonno, I just found it interesting :P
18:37:35 <pikhq> IA64 is actually a decent architecture, amazingly enough. However, its x86_32 emulation *sucks*.
18:37:36 <ehird> and it was definitely discussed
18:37:42 <ehird> pikhq: it has none nowadays
18:37:44 <ehird> pikhq: software emulation
18:37:50 <ehird> pikhq: that is actually faster than the old hw one :^)
18:38:17 <GregorR> $ grep -i zizique * | wc -l
18:38:21 <GregorR> In logs not including today.
18:38:33 <ehird> just stfu, okay :P
18:38:41 <ehird> it may have been discussed on talk: pages
18:38:57 <GregorR> ehird: I grepped the DB dump, it's only in that one page.
18:39:13 <ehird> GregorR: Look. Just shut up.
18:39:25 <ehird> It was discussed, it had a site, it was for text adventures, and we knew about it.
18:39:27 <ehird> That's all I know.
18:39:47 <AnMaster> it is like HQ9+ but with D for "interpret rest of source as deadfish"
18:39:59 <fizzie> Hrm; I thought this NAS box I had ran on some sort of XScale thing, but /proc/cpuinfo says
18:40:00 <fizzie> Processor : ARM926EJ-Sid(wb) rev 0 (v5l)
18:40:14 <asiekierka> Deadfish~, Deadfish~(subset) or Deadfish
18:40:39 <pikhq> So, this IA-32 software emulation layer...
18:40:43 <ehird> fizzie: have you got a powerpc machine
18:40:48 <pikhq> Why don't Linux distros just ship with qemu?
18:40:58 <fizzie> ehird: Just the G4 iBook.
18:41:07 <ehird> fizzie: booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooring
18:41:13 <ehird> pikhq: because it's slow as fuck
18:41:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, there is certainly some package for it I bet.
18:41:47 <AnMaster> but what has it got to do with this
18:41:54 <ehird> that's not what he said
18:42:24 <pikhq> The IA32 emulation layer is nonfree stuff... Which implies that Intel actually spent time and effort making it.
18:42:36 <AnMaster> ehird, also what do you call bosch (sp?) if you call qemu "slow as fuck"
18:42:40 <pikhq> Rather than, say, modifying a few files from qemu.
18:42:51 <ehird> AnMaster: *Bochs. Box. Ch as in Bach. Bochs.
18:42:53 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
18:42:58 <ehird> AnMaster: And slow as fuck also.
18:43:01 <AnMaster> bochs: would get parking fine if it was a car
18:43:03 <ehird> pikhq: Because theirs is faster
18:43:09 <ehird> pikhq: Take, for instance, icc.
18:43:17 <ehird> Intel KNOW their architectures really well.
18:43:48 <pikhq> Fine; why didn't they do a decent-sized patch to qemu and get some good PR out of it?
18:44:07 <ehird> And why would they?
18:44:17 <ehird> It was probably easier to make it from scratch.
18:44:20 <ehird> I bet it differs heavily.
18:44:27 <ehird> For instance, it won't emulate hardware, will it?
18:44:37 <ehird> Just translate the CPU instructions as directly and efficiently as possible.
18:44:40 <pikhq> Qemu doesn't always.
18:44:43 <GregorR> *ahem Qemu user mode emulation came first*
18:44:55 <pikhq> Qemu has user mode emulation as a major feature. ;)
18:45:06 <GregorR> Qemu has user emulation as its ORIGINAL feature :P
18:45:55 <GregorR> (Incidentally, it's bitchin' fast in that mode)
18:45:57 <AnMaster> "<ehird> Well, whatever." <-- you always say something like that when you are proven wrong. :D
18:46:09 <ehird> No, that was "OK, I'm wrong, didn't know, whatever."
18:46:20 <ehird> What's wrong with saying that?
18:46:24 <AnMaster> ehird, what exactly does "whatever" mean in this context.
18:46:32 <ehird> It means "whatever".
18:46:32 <AnMaster> not clear to me as a non-native speaker
18:46:38 <GregorR> AnMaster: In English, "whatever" means just about anything in just about any context X-P
18:46:53 <AnMaster> GregorR, yes, and what exactly does it mean in this one
18:46:55 <ehird> In this context, it probably means "ok, doesn't really matter, I just didn't know"
18:47:11 <GregorR> Yeah, I agree with ehird on that, that's how I interpreted it.
18:47:19 <GregorR> Anyway, qemu's user emulation is actually pretty darn cool.
18:47:31 <GregorR> I have an ARM Debian chroot for "cross-compiling" :)
18:47:39 <GregorR> ehird: qemu-<your favorite system> <some binary>
18:47:52 <GregorR> ehird: You need the libraries installed to a path specifiable by -L, of course.
18:48:03 <oerjan> AnMaster: today's mezzacotta ain't so bad :D
18:48:14 <AnMaster> "doesn't really matter", as in the "discussion not being important", or "that the new info doesn't really change my argument"?
18:48:18 <ehird> [ehird:/Applications/Q.app/Contents/MacOS/mips-softmmu.app/Contents/MacOS] % ls
18:48:30 <ehird> AnMaster: "Not a big deal".
18:48:38 <GregorR> ehird: Oh, AFAIK user emulation doesn't work on OS X :P
18:48:40 <pikhq> Ah, right. You've got OS X.
18:49:05 <pikhq> GregorR: It does; the DarWINE project did most of the work for that.
18:49:24 <GregorR> pikhq, ehird: Ah, OK, but it presumably only supports powerpc and x86 (maybe x86_64)
18:49:29 <ehird> pikhq: that's for ppc
18:49:33 <GregorR> Whereas on Linux it supports OMGLOTS
18:49:33 <AnMaster> DarWINE... what a horrible pun
18:49:46 <ehird> Old Darwine was just x86 emulation + WINE.
18:49:47 <GregorR> ehird: Well, it requires that the target support the same OS so it can directly translate syscalls :P
18:49:50 <ehird> Modern Darwine is just WINE ported over.
18:49:55 <AnMaster> <oerjan> AnMaster: today's mezzacotta ain't so bad :D <-- IDGI
18:49:59 <ehird> I'm on an IA32/AMD64 machine.
18:50:11 <pikhq> Darwine was qemu userspace emulation + WINE.
18:50:31 <ehird> Oh no, not psygnisfive.
18:50:36 <pikhq> Thus why Darwine's work on qemu matters. :p
18:50:49 <oerjan> AnMaster: the D&Der's response fits
18:51:00 <ehird> psygnisfive: ur no' fu'y
18:51:08 <asiekierka> oerjan: Adding v5 with "COMPATIBILITY MODE" and "PROPER MODE"
18:51:23 <ehird> Man, mi'ing con'o'ans i' fu'.
18:52:34 <ehird> Nah, I 'on' 'in' 'o.
18:52:55 <ehird> Nah, I don't think so.
18:53:06 <AnMaster> ehird, you removed too much for it to be readable there
18:53:29 <ehird> I' no' my faul'. I 'an' 'elp i'.
18:53:30 <AnMaster> "an h"... That sounds so strange.
18:54:37 <ehird> I know some idiotic americans think it's not, but that's because you fail at pronunciation and life.
18:54:48 <psygnisfive> actually ehird its you who fail at pronunciation and life
18:55:03 <psygnisfive> the "an" allomorph of "a" is used before words that start with a vowel sound
18:55:22 <psygnisfive> the name for "h" beings with an /eI/ diphthong vowel
18:55:35 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, how would you spell (no IPA stuff! Just normal letters.) the way the letter "h" is pronounced. "eigcht" seems a bit off.
18:55:52 <psygnisfive> "aitch" is the conventional spelling, I believe
18:56:08 <AnMaster> in Swedish it is said more like "hå".
18:56:21 <psygnisfive> tho english letters have no genuine conventional name spelling
18:56:33 <AnMaster> I always found the way that English pronounce the _letters_ "h" and "r" rather odd.
18:56:58 <asiekierka> Yay, V5 uploaded, with the Compatibility Mode (that's for you, oerjan)
18:56:59 <ehird> 'aitch' is a stupid way of saying h BECAUSE IT HAS NO H
18:57:22 <ehird> i pronounce trees.
18:57:33 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, so say out loud all the letters of the alphabet!
18:57:43 <AnMaster> what did you do, if you didn't pronounce them.
18:57:57 <fizzie> "Pronunciation /heɪtʃ/ and hence a spelling of haitch is usually considered to be h-adding and hence nonstandard. It is however standard in Hiberno-English[citation needed] --"; Hiberno-English sounds strange. For people who hibernate?
18:58:03 <psygnisfive> letters of alphabets are used to represent the pronunciation or words and sounds in a language
18:58:04 <AnMaster> you just admitted "<psygnisfive> "aitch" is the conventional spelling, I believe" above
18:58:15 <psygnisfive> you can pronounce a SOUND in a language, sure.
18:58:22 <ehird> Hiberno-English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
18:58:23 <ehird> Hiberno-English – also known as Anglo-Irish and Irish English – is English as spoken in Ireland, partly the result of the interaction of the English and ...
18:58:37 <psygnisfive> yes, anmaster, "aitch" is the spelling of the name for the letter "h"
18:58:41 <ehird> http://www.eamonn.com/2002/11/hibernoenglish.htm
18:59:07 <asiekierka> I wish there were drivers for RTL8168/8111 (PCI-E) for MS-DOS
18:59:16 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and that is what pronouncing the letter means to a non-language-nerd
18:59:21 <asiekierka> so I could run 64HDD on my PC and make a netcat clone for the C64
18:59:22 <fizzie> Why is it called that, though?
18:59:56 <psygnisfive> "aitch" is probably closely related to the italian "acca" for the same letter.
19:00:34 <ehird> The Gaelic phrase tar eis, which means "after", is used by Hiberno-English speakers to modify verbs to indicate that an activity has been completed recently. So, instead of using the standard English present perfect " We have just finished our dinner," Hiberno-English speakers opt for: "We're after finishing our dinner just now."
19:01:26 <AnMaster> a be se de e ef ge hå i ji kå ell em en o pe ku err ess te u ve eks y säta å ä ö
19:02:00 <psygnisfive> why is the english name for "r" weird to you?
19:02:08 -!- oerjan has quit ("ay bee cee dee ee eff gee aitch eye jay kay el em en oh pee queue are ess tee you vee double-you ecks why zed").
19:02:24 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, that is ~"are". Which is rather different
19:02:31 <ehird> it's why and zee, dammit
19:02:34 <ehird> the rhyme only works that way
19:02:42 <ehird> but in the song we turn amerikan
19:03:20 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, not if you pronounce "err" in English no
19:03:24 <psygnisfive> i mean, swedish r's are different, granted
19:03:43 <psygnisfive> but that's a fact about the consonant not the name of the letter
19:03:47 <AnMaster> that is a short e too. While are has a long a
19:04:20 <AnMaster> why did you escape that last /
19:04:56 <AnMaster> to me it looks like an escaped / from a sed expression :P
19:05:24 <psygnisfive> i would just use IPA but half the time people bitch that it doesnt show up
19:05:26 <Deewiant> How many IPA symbols are there?
19:05:49 <psygnisfive> ignoring the diacritics and modifiers i guess
19:05:51 <Deewiant> 7 distinct letters, 52 diacritics, and 4 prosody marks
19:06:07 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> i would just use IPA but half the time people bitch that it doesnt show up <-- As long as it shows up in Dejavu I'm happy
19:06:21 <Deewiant> I think Dejavu has all of IPA but I'm not sure
19:06:27 <fizzie> The Unicode "IPA Extensions" page has 176 symbols.
19:07:06 <psygnisfive> i only count 32 diacritics on the IPA wiki page
19:07:08 <Deewiant> It probably includes composed forms
19:07:25 <psygnisfive> i guess if you include the ExtIPA additions
19:07:57 <AnMaster> on a totally unrelated line of thought. What exactly does the English "blowing a raspberry" (spelling?) mean?
19:08:32 <psygnisfive> purse your lips so airflow is slightly restricted
19:08:46 <pikhq> I'd encourage you to use IPA, but urxvt and I don't get along.
19:08:50 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, resulting in a s-like sound?
19:09:35 <AnMaster> is the tounge sticking out? How far?
19:09:53 <psygnisfive> tho i think in the context of /giving/ a raspberry its much tighter, enough so that it could be tickling when done against skin
19:10:07 <psygnisfive> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=blowing+a+raspberry&aq=f
19:10:19 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, it sounds like a leaking tube with pressurised air...
19:11:02 <Deewiant> I know some IPA because I'm interested
19:11:21 <psygnisfive> i wish more people were smart enough to do that
19:11:28 <Deewiant> Yeah, I assumed we both got it right :-P
19:11:51 <Deewiant> And yes, I wish people were as smart as me as well
19:11:55 <psygnisfive> i know so many people who cant make such trivial pieces of guesswork :(
19:12:33 <psygnisfive> a professor can state something emphatically, and then go on to make a minor mistake that is obviously just a typographical error
19:12:46 <psygnisfive> but the people get all flustered like "BUT I THOUGHT YOU SAID ~"
19:13:09 <Deewiant> Then they make a big deal about it and are all confused and 10 minutes are lost
19:13:21 <ehird> jos difj sof jio eo ijojt oertj eoirjt ort joer tjoerij eojt oetj oON ON ON
19:13:33 <Deewiant> And I'm like FFS it should have been an 'a' instead of an 'e' and that's it
19:13:49 <ehird> psygnisfive: oadijasjuueu! drukkeuekńak!
19:14:11 <Deewiant> Doesn't sound at all Hungarian to me :-P
19:14:31 <pikhq> Soon he'll be speaking Afrikaans. ... With an American accent.
19:14:39 <psygnisfive> k, weird n's, and lots of e+u stuff feels hungarian to me
19:14:51 <Deewiant> K doesn't feel Hungarian to me
19:15:00 <Deewiant> Maybe it should, but it doesn't :-P
19:15:05 <pikhq> psygnisfive: No, it wouldn't.
19:15:29 <pikhq> Though it'd be somewhat close; Afrikaans *is* Germanic.
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19:15:42 <psygnisfive> afrikaans is a descendent of early modern dutch
19:16:21 * pikhq likes being contrary
19:16:45 <asiekierka> Anyone wants to see 9 lines of DEAD64V5's code?
19:17:14 <Deewiant> But couldn't remember the name
19:17:17 <psygnisfive> but nothing here looks remotely like nahuatl
19:17:27 <ehird> psygnisfive: Yecatuanłã.
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19:17:37 <ehird> (that's a ~ not a ")
19:17:54 <asiekierka> is this an example of the messyness of DEAD64V5
19:18:07 <psygnisfive> or i imagine i do, if l~ is what i expect it to be.
19:18:18 <asiekierka> Give me random numbers from 1 to 230 and I'll show code for that line
19:18:18 <ehird> psygnisfive: Łā! Brokélõs!
19:18:35 <psygnisfive> now THAT could almost be welsh, were it not for orthography
19:18:36 <Deewiant> I've been meaning to train myself to be able to pronounce every sound in IPA but haven't got around to it
19:18:47 <ehird> Deewiant: sounds impossible
19:19:13 <Deewiant> ehird: Maybe, I don't think so
19:19:16 <ehird> psygnisfive: Vŏktük palél :-)
19:19:38 <ehird> wasn't meant to be volapük :P
19:19:41 <psygnisfive> deewiant: its hard to learn from the interwebs
19:19:49 <psygnisfive> i know ehird, but thats what came to mind :p
19:20:48 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: Combination of IPA-capable dictionary + youtube goes a long way, methinks :-)
19:20:49 <psygnisfive> i figure we have programming versions of SVO languages
19:21:32 <ehird> SVO: OOP. SOV: Concatenative. VSO: Procedural.
19:21:50 <ehird> SVO: OOP. SOV: Concatenative. VSO: Procedural/functional.
19:21:54 <Deewiant> More canonically functional, IMO.
19:22:00 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> i wish more people were smart enough to do that <-- Smart? So never having heard the word "sampa" before means someone is stupid?
19:22:08 <ehird> AnMaster: that's not what he said
19:22:13 <ehird> maybe you should learn to read, AnMaster
19:22:14 <Deewiant> So what, are we missing OSV OVS VOS?
19:22:16 <AnMaster> ehird, it seemed to be what he said.
19:22:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Congrats! I bestow unto you the "cannot read or comprehend" award, then.
19:22:40 <ehird> Deewiant: I think S and O are interchangable.
19:22:41 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: Do we have natural languages like that?
19:22:44 <ehird> It's down to the programmer, mostly.
19:22:51 <ehird> Although... OVS would be weird.
19:23:02 <ehird> That's just not good for a programming language.
19:23:07 <ehird> Even if it can be made to work naturally.
19:23:16 <psygnisfive> the use of Subjects is mostly applicable in OO style tho
19:23:18 <ehird> It doesn't reflect the operations performed at all.
19:23:20 <ehird> Deewiant: Well sure.
19:24:02 <ehird> (oranges,hungrily)eat.sam
19:24:06 <ehird> Oranges hungrily eat Sam.
19:24:25 <psygnisfive> and since its horrible for a programming language
19:24:30 <pikhq> Wasn't Klingon OVS?
19:24:43 <psygnisfive> the intention was to make it as un-english like as possible
19:25:11 <psygnisfive> interestingly, the notion of Object and Subject are, I would say, completely meaningless
19:25:16 <ehird> psygnisfive: agreed
19:25:17 <pikhq> psygnisfive: The intention was to make it as alien as possible, rather. Slight difference.
19:25:20 <ehird> psygnisfive: It's very single dispatch.
19:25:26 <Deewiant> psygnisfive: Yeah, that's what ehird was going on about earlier
19:25:51 <psygnisfive> its just that in the underlying semantics theres no difference
19:26:12 <psygnisfive> normally people think of sentences as being Subject-Predicate
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19:26:32 <ehird> psygnisfive: Lojban is interesting here. It thinks directly in predicates.
19:26:49 * pikhq wants VSO, OSV, and: V, S, and O languages
19:26:55 <psygnisfive> because in formal semantics, P can be a lambda
19:27:12 <psygnisfive> which means it can be like multi-arg functions
19:27:20 <ehird> VSO... Eat Sam oranges.
19:27:28 <ehird> OSV... oranges Sam eat.
19:27:33 <ehird> Functional, concatenative.
19:28:09 <psygnisfive> we need an OO language with a weird ordering like this
19:28:13 <ehird> psygnisfive: Heh. So a strong type system + language is logic (curry-howard), and linguistics is programming (you).
19:28:17 <ehird> Therefore, linguistics is logic.
19:28:27 <pikhq> I'd demand an SOV language, but there is one.
19:28:44 <psygnisfive> ehird: well, some of linguistics is very closely related to logic
19:28:59 <psygnisfive> Curry and Howard did their work FOR linguistic semantics, essentially
19:29:00 <ehird> psygnisfive: Yeah, but we have a whole trifecta of equivalences: Programming = logic = linguistics. :-)
19:29:03 <Deewiant> Actually, why did I even ask about natural languages, Finnish can do all of SOV SVO VSO VOS OSV OVS, with the non-Vxx ones probably being the most normal-sounding ones.
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19:29:12 <ehird> Deewiant: so can russian
19:29:13 <pikhq> (Samu ha orenji wo taberu)
19:29:24 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly.
19:29:32 <pikhq> Deewiant: So can English.
19:30:03 <pikhq> psygnisfive: I type as though it were going into a Japanese IME.
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19:30:09 <ehird> Deewiant: "Hello", Sam says.
19:30:12 <pikhq> And yes, it's valid English, if little-used.
19:30:13 <ehird> "Hello", says Sam.
19:30:23 <ehird> Are the valid orderings.
19:30:31 <psygnisfive> ehird: literary use of "say" is very different actually
19:30:42 <ehird> But you can twist most thigns into that.
19:30:46 <ehird> It's just that say is the only one that feels natural.
19:30:51 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah, you need the comma.
19:31:09 <Deewiant> I was just thinking that that's somewhat of a special case.
19:32:01 <psygnisfive> english, despite being a "fixed" word order language, is replete with transformations for changing word order to add pragmatic content
19:32:20 <pikhq> English used to not be as fixed in its word order.
19:32:27 <Deewiant> I still can't see "oranges Sam eats" as being very valid :-P
19:32:43 <pikhq> Middle English wasn't much of a fixed word order language, and Early Modern English wasn't, either.
19:32:52 <ehird> Deewiant: "Oranges Sam eats" is valid.
19:32:53 <psygnisfive> as in "ORANGES, sam eats, but not apples."
19:32:55 <ehird> It's just awkward.
19:33:07 <ehird> It's Oranges[tiny pause] Sam eats.
19:33:13 <ehird> And "sa" is deeper.
19:33:17 <pikhq> Deewiant: Normally, I'd stick a comma in there. "Oranges, Sam eats" makes it seem a bit more natural.
19:33:27 <ehird> pikhq: not standalone
19:33:29 <pikhq> But yes, it's a quite valid construction.
19:33:35 <psygnisfive> yes, again, as i said, the comma denotes prosody
19:33:54 <pikhq> ehird: Standalone, it's also valid.
19:33:57 <ehird> the tiny pause is shorter than a comma
19:34:00 <ehird> in "Oranges Sam eats"
19:34:12 <ehird> i guess the comma is different in this case
19:34:14 <ehird> to a bog standard ,
19:34:23 <psygnisfive> interestingly, because a lot of these transformations demarcate presuppositional content of a sentence, you can only use them in the portion of a sentence that contains an ASSERTION
19:34:32 <Deewiant> What about "Oranges eats Sam"?
19:34:50 <psygnisfive> i cannot get any OVS constructions to work in english
19:34:55 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeeeeeeeeeeeeessss...
19:35:00 <ehird> But people will look at you very funny.
19:35:10 <ehird> Oranges, eats Sam. is slightly better
19:35:11 <Deewiant> People will look at you funny for "oranges eats Sam" as well
19:35:17 <psygnisfive> ehird: looking at you funny basically means its bad. :)
19:35:21 <pikhq> I'm going to say "no" unless you come up with something clever.
19:35:22 <ehird> where the , is basically as long as a ;
19:35:26 <ehird> psygnisfive: it's valid, just bad
19:35:29 <Deewiant> The problem with English is that there's no authority for what's valid
19:36:00 <ehird> I'd say it's valid
19:36:01 <psygnisfive> when you do large scale study of the syntax of english
19:36:03 <Deewiant> Meaning that if you're looked at funny it's not valid
19:36:17 <psygnisfive> you find that things are good or bad to different degrees
19:36:27 <pikhq> If you want to see what word orders are valid, it's probably easiest to see which ones Shakespeare used.
19:36:28 <psygnisfive> and OVS is generally not taken to be good.
19:36:36 <psygnisfive> the thing about grammaticality judgements tho is
19:36:42 <Deewiant> Validity is a relative concept in English.
19:36:50 <psygnisfive> most people will not understand what we mean by grammatical
19:37:07 <psygnisfive> a lot of times people think it means "can you figure out what im trying to say"
19:37:12 <psygnisfive> which is not what grammaticality is at all
19:37:33 <psygnisfive> grammaticality is more like "would it feel nature to you to say this?" or "would it sound odd if you heard this said?"
19:37:39 <ehird> wtf R U talk about psygnisfive???????? lol ur freak
19:37:49 <ehird> would it feel nature to you to say this
19:38:16 <ehird> http://www.silentpcreview.com/files/images/silverstone-raven/01.jpg Computer case. Comes with cat.
19:38:21 <Deewiant> Thinking about it more I'd have to say that "oranges Sam eats" is 'invalid', because nobody thinks that's normal
19:38:45 <Deewiant> I was hoping you wouldn't say that :-)
19:38:53 <pikhq> It's most commonly used in poetry, but it does come up in conversation rather often.
19:39:09 <psygnisfive> actually its probably more used in conversation than in poetry
19:39:20 <Deewiant> Can you give me a decent example
19:39:25 <Deewiant> Maybe I'm just not realizing it
19:39:45 <pikhq> "I can't see Alice." "What about Bill?" "Bill I can see."
19:40:14 <psygnisfive> another example, where its almost completely acceptable without ANY presuppositional meaning, is with quantified expressions
19:40:14 <Deewiant> I guess I can't argue validity for different instances of the same construct :-)
19:40:46 <psygnisfive> there it actually i guess some sort of focus use
19:41:01 <ehird> I'd say "he likes"
19:41:03 <ehird> For maximum confusion
19:41:22 <pikhq> It can be in context.
19:41:33 <ehird> psygnisfive: is to a linguist!
19:41:34 <pikhq> Say you've been talking about someone else for a bit.
19:41:40 <ehird> starting with "is"
19:41:45 <psygnisfive> thats just the nature of indexicals in general
19:42:26 <psygnisfive> its common in colloquial english, and in many romance languages
19:43:17 <psygnisfive> written/more formal english has grammatical null subject in imperatives
19:44:17 <pikhq> More formal English? That's common conversational English as well.
19:44:58 <Deewiant> Point was that validity in formal english is the highest level of validity... or something like that
19:45:00 <psygnisfive> i was merely saying that more formal english doesnt have null subject except in imperatives
19:45:12 <pikhq> Oh. Misunderstood.
19:45:31 <psygnisfive> ehird, if youre interested in the language = logic (or i guess if anyone else is)
19:45:47 <psygnisfive> you should look at Categorial Grammar and its offspring
19:46:34 <psygnisfive> CG, and its most famous derivative, CCG, are essentially just words-as-lambdas-with-direction-specific-application-rules
19:47:27 <psygnisfive> CCG is where i got all that type-lifting nonnyhoggins from
19:47:46 <psygnisfive> i discussed some of it with oklopol and we decided that the idea was interesting and worth making into an esolang
19:48:14 <psygnisfive> because you can code up some absolutely convoluted things that make NO fucking sense except they do, because you can do crazy type shifting operations and stuff
19:49:57 <psygnisfive> since were on the topic of natural language stuff
19:50:08 <psygnisfive> theres a particular construction in english and a number of other languages called determiner sharing
19:50:22 <psygnisfive> which results in one of the WEIRDEST fucking semantic properties ive ever seen
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19:52:03 <psygnisfive> with the appropriate prosody (slight emphasis on "dogs" and "cats")
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19:52:13 <psygnisfive> gives the same reading as "many dogs eat alpo and many cats eat whiskas"
19:52:56 <psygnisfive> so theres this sort of ... "invisible" quantifier and invisible verb, that get picked up from the previous ones
19:53:14 <ehird> GregorR: yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees?
19:53:15 <psygnisfive> "many_i dogs eat_j alpo and Q_i cats V_j whiskas"
19:53:20 <ehird> oh, it's 3d street view
19:53:21 <pikhq> English has very, *very* weird grammar.
19:53:35 <GregorR> ehird: Somebody is very clever :P
19:53:49 <psygnisfive> this does NOT mean "no dogs eat alpo, or no cats eat whiskas"
19:53:57 <psygnisfive> it means "no dogs eat alpo, and no cats eat whiskas"
19:54:15 <psygnisfive> in the D-shared version, you have OR, but in the explicit version you have AND
19:54:17 <ehird> psygnisfive: the or goes elsewhere, I think
19:54:29 <ehird> "no (dogs|cats) eat (alpo|whiskas)"
19:54:32 <ehird> it's ORing the two arguments
19:54:40 <pikhq> English is just a natural Esolang.
19:55:01 <psygnisfive> "some is the real quantifier thats being shared
19:55:13 <psygnisfive> while the "not" takes scope over the whole sentence, including the or:
19:55:46 <psygnisfive> "no D eat A, or C W" = "not(many D eat A, or many C eat W)"
19:56:03 <ehird> ais523: you'd like that
19:56:13 <ehird> ais523: if an operation is an abbreviation of two operations, precedence
19:56:31 <ehird> bar ((baz x) quux y)
19:56:32 <psygnisfive> because both NOT and SOME are lexicalized in the SAME WORD "no"
19:56:34 <ais523> ehird: I'm rather busy atm
19:56:34 <ais523> so not paying attention
19:56:36 <ais523> trying to catch up on weekly nomic duties before midnight...
19:56:44 <psygnisfive> so that one part of "no" scopes LOWER than OR, while the OTHER part scopes HIGHER
19:56:57 <ais523> ehird: like #define in C?
19:57:03 <ehird> ais523: yep, but in english
19:57:06 <ehird> ais523: no = not some
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19:57:14 <ehird> 19:53 psygnisfive: "no dogs eat alpo, or cats whiskas"
19:57:14 <ehird> 19:55 psygnisfive: "no D eat A, or C W" = "not(many D eat A, or many C eat W)"
19:57:22 <ehird> 19:54 psygnisfive: "no" is compositionall "not some"
19:57:23 <ehird> 19:55 psygnisfive: "some is the real quantifier thats being shared
19:57:25 <ehird> 19:55 psygnisfive: while the "not" takes scope over the whole sentence, including the or:
19:58:12 <ehird> I was pasting for ais523
19:58:30 <psygnisfive> anyway, its a completely baffling thing. i have no idea how to hand that syntactically
19:58:30 <ais523> I'm still not paying attention, so stop pasting for me
19:58:46 <psygnisfive> all i know is the facts about negation scoping there.
19:59:11 <psygnisfive> which can in some sentences have different scopes
20:00:00 <psygnisfive> this kind of shit is all over the place in natural language, its amazing
20:01:19 <psygnisfive> oh, also, ehird, i know you like haskell and type theoretic logicy things, right so
20:01:31 <psygnisfive> you should check out Montague semantics/grammar
20:01:51 <ehird> more like type theoretic dung beetle, am I right?
20:02:22 <psygnisfive> you can trivially translate montague's stuff into haskell types
20:02:39 <psygnisfive> montague uses (a,b) or <a,b> for haskells a -> b
20:03:35 <psygnisfive> quantifiers are presumed to have type ((e,t),t)
20:03:55 <psygnisfive> which i guess is equivalent to haskell forall a. (a -> Bool) -> Bool
20:04:51 <psygnisfive> tho there are only two primitive types in montague semantics, e for individuals, and t for boolean values, so...
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20:06:04 <psygnisfive> the quantifier itself is probably like ((e,t),((e,t),t)) or something
20:07:57 <psygnisfive> all(Birds)(Fly) ~= { x : Bird(x) } subset { x : Flyer(x) }
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20:13:39 <ehird> psygnisfive: that (a->Bool) thing is bunk
20:13:47 <ehird> psygnisfive: that "all" can't be valid because it can't check every single case
20:13:54 <ehird> psygnisfive: you need a way to iterate over all of them
20:14:09 <psygnisfive> well, this isnt supposed to be a true haskell thing ;)
20:14:22 <ehird> all :: ((Bool -> Bool) -> Bool) -> ((Bool -> Bool) -> Bool) -> Bool
20:14:26 <psygnisfive> this is just the truth conditional logic of the all quantifier
20:15:12 <psygnisfive> i mean, i guess if you had a haskell function subset
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20:17:05 <psygnisfive> forall a. forall b. all :: (a -> Bool) -> (b -> bool) -> Bool
20:17:06 <psygnisfive> all apred bpred = subset [x | x <- U, apred x] [x | x <- U, bpred x]
20:17:41 <psygnisfive> or something like that. really itd just be all :: (Individual -> Bool) -> (Individual -> Bool) -> Bool
20:17:51 <psygnisfive> since all _things_ are of the same entity type
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20:23:40 <ais523> I'm a bit busy atm though
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20:36:50 <Sgeo> GregorR, you're on DS now?
20:38:47 * Sgeo is thinking of making "Dream Serums"
20:39:33 <Sgeo> A Peace Serum and a War Serum: The Peace Serum makes the norn very unwilling to fight, and the war serum teaches the norn that violence is literally the answer to all problems
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20:40:36 <Sgeo> Peace serum make cause permanent brain damage
20:41:11 <Sgeo> Doesn't exist yet
20:41:16 <Sgeo> I need someone to make graphics
20:41:26 <GregorR> I can make shitty graphics, if shitty is what you're going for ;)
20:41:28 <Sgeo> And I'm still uncertain about making vendors
20:41:42 <Sgeo> GregorR, I'd like good graphics, but shitty will do for now
20:42:03 <GregorR> Is there an agent that will kill any norn that slaps another even once? :P
20:42:33 <Sgeo> GregorR, it can be made fairly easily
20:42:43 <Sgeo> And there are at least two general anti-slap agents out there
20:42:59 <Sgeo> Clucky's, which separates the norns, and mine, which prevents hitting from having any effect
20:43:08 <Sgeo> I suspect that mine isn't well know
20:43:26 <Sgeo> The Bondi norns are hitting me
20:44:36 <Sgeo> Not sure where mine is
20:45:15 <Sgeo> Looking for Clucky's
20:45:19 <GregorR> Sgeo: I have lots of pregnancies, lots of eggs, and they never hatch >_>
20:45:36 <Sgeo> GregorR, my superbreeders are in your world?
20:45:49 <Sgeo> Open the options panel, and change the lower green number to something higher
20:46:31 <Sgeo> http://web.archive.org/web/20080108054728/clucky.sts.winisp.net/Agents/Forms/AgentsForDS.aspx High Tech Hand, which includes Clucky's Stop Slapping Norns and Stop Slapping Creatures
20:47:00 <GregorR> Sgeo: Nope, these are all pure, I'm just letting it go and seeing what happens :P
20:47:27 <GregorR> (Except I want to toss in tons of agents before doing that :P )
20:48:43 <Sgeo> Best way to make sure norns are educated: Hook up a timer to a vocabulizer
20:51:43 <ehird> does ds work on osx
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20:52:30 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> A Peace Serum and a War Serum: The Peace Serum makes the norn very unwilling to fight, and the war serum teaches the norn that violence is literally the answer to all problems <-- what on earth is a "norn"
20:52:44 <ehird> AnMaster: You have a great ability to rehash conversations.
20:53:01 <ehird> Game. Creatures. Artificial life.
20:53:36 <ehird> Docking Station is a recent one. Freeware.
20:53:45 <ehird> Windows, Linux, dunno about OS X.
20:53:57 <ehird> (The old ones aren't linux.)
20:53:58 <ais523> AnMaster: The Norn was in charge of a group of Valkyries in Norse legend, I believe
20:54:14 <ehird> ais523: that's both 100% correct and 100% irrelevant :)
20:54:19 <AnMaster> ais523, That explains why it sounded familiar!
20:54:21 <ais523> a different sort of norn?
20:54:26 <ais523> AnMaster: you probably know it from NetHack
20:54:27 <ehird> 20:53 ehird: Game. Creatures. Artificial life.
20:55:16 <AnMaster> ais523, haven't played val for several months by now
20:55:29 <AnMaster> haven't played nh for several months even
20:56:35 <ehird> great, you can have DS for OS X, but you have to pay
20:56:38 <ehird> Sgeo: pirate it for me plz
20:57:00 <ehird> http://creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Creatures_Exodus
20:57:14 <Sgeo> I am under the impression that DS for OS X sucks
20:57:22 <ehird> i am under the impression that your mom sucks
20:57:28 <Sgeo> Apparently, a lot of things don't work in DS for OS X
20:57:49 <Slereah> Creatures hasn't done anything good in ten years
20:58:01 <Sgeo> Slereah, heard of the Warp?
20:58:24 <Sgeo> Also, the Genetics Kit and stuff are free now
20:59:53 <ehird> docking station has a warp thing
20:59:58 <ehird> it gives norns to other people.
21:00:15 <Slereah> People have been exchanging norns on the internet way before that
21:00:27 <ehird> Slereah: tell that to the DS users, Sgeo gave them all an ultraviolent norn and an ultrabreeder norn
21:00:30 <ehird> without their consent :^)
21:00:33 <ehird> well, not them all, but a lot
21:00:38 <ehird> AnMaster: what do you mean why
21:00:38 <AnMaster> does GIMP input controller dialog
21:01:10 <ehird> also, maybe some custom input things give via midi
21:01:21 <ehird> unconventional "musical instrument" things could be used
21:01:22 <Slereah> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20090309after.gif
21:01:44 <ehird> (before: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20090309.gif)
21:03:31 <AnMaster> ehird, here it is: http://omploader.org/vMW5vYg
21:03:38 <AnMaster> (the gimp input config dialog)
21:03:53 <ehird> oh my god AnMaster, set up a gtk theme, even the one that uses qt
21:03:56 <ehird> raleigh breaks my eyes
21:04:07 <ehird> it's worse than windows 95!
21:04:32 <AnMaster> ehird, how does one do it with none of gnome installed (except gtk itself)
21:04:42 <AnMaster> and really, I like this gtk theme
21:04:48 <ehird> AnMaster: apt-get install gtk-qt-engine-kde4
21:04:53 <ehird> AnMaster: apt-get install gtk-qt-engine
21:05:14 <ehird> AnMaster: it's gtk-qt-engine on gentoo, apparently
21:05:16 <ehird> anyway, once you've done that
21:05:18 <AnMaster> ehird, and I tried that gtk-qt-engine thing.
21:05:27 <ehird> it just uses your kde theme!
21:05:39 <AnMaster> ehird, like, buttons over text next to them
21:05:43 <ehird> well, try updating it then :P
21:05:47 <ehird> software gets improved
21:05:59 <AnMaster> less work to live with current theme
21:06:36 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, I had expected it to be much less work :P
21:06:43 <ehird> updating a package?
21:06:46 <ehird> that's so damn hard
21:07:07 <AnMaster> ehird, no. I tried it recently you see. Like 2-3 weeks ago. Checked it was the last version
21:07:26 <ehird> AnMaster: at least install the Mist theme; that's pretty much like the kde 2 theme
21:07:34 <ehird> i.e., plain but the edges are less subdued than Raleigh
21:07:58 <ehird> AnMaster: gtk-engines-mist, fwiw.
21:08:11 <AnMaster> and x11-themes/gtk-engines-qt hasn't been updated since then
21:08:16 <ehird> gtk-themes is right
21:08:43 <ehird> AnMaster: gtk-themes
21:08:52 <ehird> and install chtheme if you want to use a switcher
21:09:05 <ehird> AnMaster: ok, do gtk-engines
21:09:20 <ehird> AnMaster: and also gtk-chtheme
21:09:34 <ehird> then just start gtk-chtheme and choose Mist.
21:09:39 <AnMaster> hm x11-themes/gtk-engines-2.16.1 is installed
21:09:49 <ehird> then just start gtk-chtheme :-P
21:09:57 <AnMaster> bash: gtk-chtheme: command not found
21:10:04 <ehird> have you installed gtk-chtheme?
21:10:18 <ehird> then... guess what :-P
21:10:32 <ehird> install gtk-chtheme first.
21:10:45 <AnMaster> oh. I would never have guessed _THAT_
21:11:08 <AnMaster> anyway I didn't find what I was looking for in gimp
21:11:15 <AnMaster> which was that "one window" thing
21:11:19 <Sgeo> My arrow keys stopped working :(
21:11:25 <ehird> AnMaster: any luck?
21:11:25 <AnMaster> because I got tired of trying to find all the different pallets
21:11:38 <ehird> AnMaster: gtk-chtheme...
21:12:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm upgrading other stuff atm, will do it after. Yes gentoo supports concurrent installs and manages locking correctly, but I don't have enough ram to both handle rebuilding QT, having a huge image open in gimp and build yet another package :P
21:13:01 <ehird> did I mention source distros suck?
21:13:07 <ehird> i hereby mention thus
21:13:22 <AnMaster> ehird, there are both pros and cons. For both source and binary distros
21:13:36 <ehird> pros of binary distros: have ram left to install more packages, wait less
21:13:44 <ehird> cons: firefox takes 5ms longer to start
21:13:51 <ehird> what a hard choice :-)
21:14:48 <AnMaster> cons: you get all apps built against libXinerama just because some user *might* be able to afford more than one monitor.
21:15:16 <AnMaster> oh and curl is build with ipv6 support, when you need it with ares support
21:15:35 <AnMaster> curl couldn't do ipv6 and ares last I checked.
21:15:57 <ehird> AnMaster: (1) Oh no, that's SEVERAL MEGABYTES! (2) That's totally a bug. Also, you can do that with two packages or variants of packages.
21:16:57 <pikhq> What about having stuff with GTK support and *not* GNOME support?
21:16:57 <AnMaster> not a bug. It is just not possible currently.
21:17:37 <AnMaster> I don't want gnome support, and not gtk support unless the app needs it and I can't use some alternative one.
21:17:43 <AnMaster> Gimp falls into the latter categoryu
21:18:00 <ehird> pikhq: Multiple megabytes! Also, variants. AnMaster: Two orthogonal features conflicting = bug.
21:18:21 <AnMaster> ehird, orthogonal? How do you mean in this case.
21:18:37 <ehird> AnMaster: what have ipv6 and ares got to do with each other?
21:18:41 <ehird> there's no reason they should conflict
21:19:04 <ehird> I've heard of it, but I don't recall, no.
21:19:14 <ehird> Still, if two features conflict they should conflict at RUNTIME.
21:19:38 <AnMaster> async dns library. Which doesn't support ipv6.
21:19:39 <pikhq> ehird, you need to build packages more. :p
21:19:59 <ehird> Fuck source distros :)
21:20:09 <AnMaster> ehird, you need to be a package maintainer then
21:20:25 <ehird> AnMaster: I have written packages before, IIRC.
21:20:35 * pikhq wonders how well the typical binary distro handles USE="-ldap", for example
21:20:51 <AnMaster> ehird, not library/application maintainer. Rather maintainer of a package, of a distro
21:20:54 <ehird> pikhq: By forcing you to waste *megabytes* of disk space.
21:20:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes. I know.
21:21:29 <AnMaster> ehird, megabytes of memory too
21:21:30 <pikhq> ehird: Uh... Megabytes of RAM space.
21:21:51 <AnMaster> ehird, not all of us have 6 GB RAM :P
21:21:51 <ehird> Also, a few milliseconds on startup due to not being tuned to your CPU.
21:21:56 <ehird> Truly our binary life is horrific.
21:22:03 <ehird> AnMaster: 2GB is very much enough...
21:22:07 <pikhq> Not all of us can stick 36GB RAM in a system.
21:22:18 <Sgeo> used to have 512mb
21:22:21 <ehird> Srsly, we're talking MEGABYTES here.
21:22:23 <Sgeo> until this year
21:22:27 <AnMaster> yes my old computer had 512 mb too
21:22:28 <ehird> Quit the hyperbole.
21:22:29 <pikhq> I find my RAM in plenty of use with hardly anything going.
21:22:41 <pikhq> ehird, I have a thousand of them.
21:22:54 <ehird> pikhq: That's the compilation :-P
21:23:01 <AnMaster> pikhq, even when not counting the kernel cache?
21:23:03 <pikhq> My browser takes about half of them.
21:23:12 <pikhq> AnMaster: Thousand megabytes total.
21:23:18 <ehird> Besides, if you don't have much RAM... why are you compiling all the time?! That's just gonna be hell.
21:23:29 <ehird> pikhq: 1024, surely.
21:23:37 <pikhq> ... Who the hell compiles constantly.
21:23:38 <ehird> Seagate gigabytes are only used for HDs.
21:23:44 <ehird> pikhq: people who use source distros
21:23:54 <AnMaster> ehird, you are misinformed then
21:24:00 <pikhq> My weekly update takes at most a couple of hours.
21:24:06 <pikhq> WHEN I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING.
21:24:11 <pikhq> WHEN I'M SLEEPING.
21:24:20 <ehird> WHEN I'M USING CAPSLOCK.
21:24:36 <pikhq> SHIFT; I DON'T HAVE A CPASLOCK.
21:24:52 <pikhq> NOR DO I HAVE A CAPSLOCK.
21:24:56 <AnMaster> what have you mapped your caps lock?
21:25:11 <pikhq> A proper Control key.
21:25:14 <ehird> I LOVE MY CAPS LOCK. I WOULD NEVER GIVE IT UP.
21:25:18 <ehird> pikhq: THAT'S GONNA GIVE YOU RSI, YOU KNOW.
21:25:37 <ehird> pikhq: TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT YOUR HAND DOES WHEN YOU USE THAT CAPS LOCK CONTROL KEY.
21:25:38 <pikhq> UNIX keyboard layouts have a Ctrl to the left of A.
21:25:45 <AnMaster> ehird, rick roll takes a new meaning when it is about the caps lock indeed!
21:25:47 <ehird> Well, maybe not RSI. One of them tingymajigs.
21:26:06 <pikhq> Oh, my poor pinky.
21:26:12 * AnMaster watches ehird sing "never gonna give it up" to his caps lock key. "<ehird> I LOVE MY CAPS LOCK. I WOULD NEVER GIVE IT UP."
21:26:14 <pikhq> Moving from A a tiny bit.
21:26:27 <ehird> pikhq: Oh come on, try depressing it.
21:26:31 <ehird> It's simply unergonomical.
21:27:08 <pikhq> What, and having a Ctrl below Shift is less so?
21:27:26 <pikhq> What the crap are you smoking?
21:27:36 <ehird> Your finger doesn't bend or twist for the ctrl-below-shift.
21:27:58 <pikhq> It doesn't for Ctrl at A, though.
21:28:08 * pikhq thinks ehird sucks at typing
21:28:09 <ehird> you have mutant hands
21:28:11 <AnMaster> actually the only issue with source based distros are: Firefox and Thunderbird. Even QT isn't very slow to compile. And for OpenOffice you use the binary package.
21:28:24 <ehird> I like how using a binary package still counts as source-based.
21:28:29 <ehird> It's deliciously nonsensical.
21:28:33 <pikhq> AnMaster: Firefox isn't that bad.
21:28:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> Your finger doesn't bend or twist for the ctrl-below-shift. <-- mutant hands indeed
21:29:02 <AnMaster> pikhq, Actually ff 3 seems faster to compile than ff 2
21:29:03 <pikhq> ehird: OpenOffice is a terrible load of bloat.
21:29:07 <ais523> swapping control and caps lock is common, but I havne't
21:29:17 <pikhq> It takes a *lot* of time to compile.
21:29:24 <pikhq> (and about 5GB of disk space)
21:29:52 <pikhq> I just use Koffice instead.
21:30:05 <ehird> I use better paradigms :P
21:30:09 <AnMaster> pikhq, I use use lyx for word processing :P
21:30:32 <AnMaster> but LyX makes it so much easier.
21:31:17 <ehird> I don't "process words", I'm either typesetting something (TeX or alikes) or just lightly formatting some text (Markdown)
21:31:31 <ehird> I don't use spreadsheets, I use plain text files (and for the calculation parts, some scripts).
21:31:42 <ehird> Admittedly, these aren't the most mainstream paradigms, but they're the easiest way to do it for me.
21:31:55 <ehird> I find office suites to be almost entirely worthless.
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21:33:09 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah. Only need them to open files I get.
21:33:34 <ehird> I hear good things about antiword for viewing Word documents.
21:33:49 <ehird> For ODF, though, no clue.
21:33:56 <AnMaster> ehird, also, how do you do your presentations?
21:34:03 <ehird> AnMaster: Stab. Stab. Stab.
21:34:10 <pikhq> TeX has a presentation mode, though I'm not familiar with it.
21:34:18 <ehird> Interestingly, a lot more documents/spreadsheets are on Google Docs nowadays.
21:34:19 <fizzie> I do presentations with latex-beamer to PDF.
21:34:20 <AnMaster> pikhq, yeah I heard ConTeXt was good for it
21:34:25 <ehird> So I just point my browser at them.
21:34:34 <ehird> Apart from that, though, I find I rarely want to read a spreadsheet.
21:34:40 <ehird> 21:34 AnMaster: ehird, huh ← I hate presentations.
21:34:54 <ehird> Please read Tufte's "The Cognitive Style of Powerpoint".
21:35:34 <ehird> AnMaster: If you want a summary in presentation form... http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/000931
21:35:56 <fizzie> It has a very nice front cover: http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/books_pp
21:36:10 <ehird> Tufte's a clever guy.
21:36:26 <Sgeo> must find replacement
21:36:26 <Sgeo> * Good: teaching kids to smoke
21:36:37 <fizzie> Our information-visualization course had a pile of Tufte books in the "potential reading for interested people" category.
21:38:14 <AnMaster> ehird, how many presentations have you seen btw. I have seen both good and bad ones.
21:38:22 <ehird> AnMaster: too many.
21:38:26 <AnMaster> and just reading the slides isn't useful at all.
21:38:59 * AnMaster hates when you find a link on the GCC wiki or whatever to slides from some developer meeting and that being almost useless to explain the issue.
21:41:04 <fizzie> Based on the prevalence of similar-looking slides in our seminar-format courses, using LaTeX with the "beamer" package is perhaps the most common way of making slides; well, at least for the more science-oriented departments. I guess presentation-culture might be different at the software business side.
21:41:05 <AnMaster> also powerpoint is horrible yes.
21:42:00 <AnMaster> slides can be useful when they are displaying something hard to describe in words. Such as a diagram, an image or similar
21:42:39 <AnMaster> ehird, also, next time you are at a cinema, remember it is just slides, switched very quickly :P
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21:46:36 <pikhq> It's not so much that presentations are bad, but people really, really suck at using presentation tools right.
21:47:25 <pikhq> And Powerpoint doesn't help in the least.
21:48:58 <AnMaster> but I have seen it done right. Without computer. Hand written overhead.
21:49:32 <pikhq> A decent slideshow for presentations should have slides that show little more than, say, diagrams, visualisations... Relevant formulae or algorithms...
21:49:49 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yeah, saw it done a lot by high school teachers.
21:50:05 <pikhq> Some of whom did a Powerpoint-style overhead. X_X
21:51:35 <ais523> good slides are just a backdrop to a speech
21:51:45 <ais523> they don't really convey the information by themselves, they're meant as something to look at whilst listening
21:52:07 <AnMaster> ais523, so no useful diagrams?
21:52:16 <ais523> oh, they can be useful
21:52:23 <ais523> just diagrams don't normally tell the whole story
21:52:55 <pikhq> Yeah, it should be a supplement to the speech. Definitely.
21:53:01 <ais523> they don't normally tell the whole story either
21:53:22 <ais523> generally speaking, when I do presentations, my slides are pictures but you can't tell what they mean without the description given in speech
21:53:33 <AnMaster> ais523, not the whole story. But sometimes you can't say it in words easily.
21:53:53 <ais523> AnMaster: are you trying to disagree with me?
21:54:00 <ais523> I can't tell whether you're agreeing or disagreeing
21:54:04 <AnMaster> just saying sometimes slides are needed.
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21:56:00 <AnMaster> ais523, example: You are on an aircraft accident investigation team. You are now describing some specific damages to some relevant people outside the team. The media maybe? Who knows. Anyway it was decided to do it as a presentation. The pictures showing the damages would help a lot in explaining it. Of course, them alone would not be enough. But nor would just describing it be!
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21:56:49 <ehird> "nor" is incorrect
21:56:54 <ehird> you mean "neither"
21:57:46 * pikhq should create a programming language with the NOR operator as the only boolean operator. :p
21:57:59 <ais523> actually, I think "nor" might be correct there too
21:58:02 <ais523> and NAND is actually more common
21:58:14 <ais523> due to being slightly cheaper to make with standard transistors
21:58:28 <AnMaster> how comes you often see comments just before end of line in LaTeX btw?
21:58:29 <coppro> yeah, that's a good point
21:58:33 <ais523> IIRC, I'm not quite sure
21:58:33 <AnMaster> \begin{flushleft}\includegraphics[%
21:58:33 <AnMaster> width=1.0\columnwidth]{img/sgrass.base.111.eps}\end{flushleft}
21:58:44 <ehird> line continuation?
21:58:55 <AnMaster> ehird, thought of that. But it doesn't seem to make any difference if I remove it though
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21:59:19 <AnMaster> ehird, that seems even stranger
22:00:57 * AnMaster wonders if it is possible to write C with no spaces or newlines apart from what is needed for #include at the top
22:01:47 <pikhq> If you use only integers.
22:01:52 <pikhq> main(){a,b,c;} is legal C.
22:02:12 <pikhq> return(x); is legal.
22:02:34 <ais523> no, main() isn't legal C99
22:02:51 <ais523> and falling off main is defined in C99 to have an implied return 0
22:03:00 <ais523> Deewiant: main() isn't, int main() is
22:03:06 <ais523> C99 removed implicit int
22:03:12 <Deewiant> ais523: GCC, at least, accepts main().
22:03:18 <ais523> a,b,c is illegal if a,b,c aren't defined higher up the file, though
22:03:31 <pikhq> I didn't say it was valid C99.
22:03:35 <ais523> but I was just looking at the one line
22:03:39 <pikhq> And idiomatic K&R C.
22:03:42 <AnMaster> any way you can do it with other vars than int?
22:03:50 <ais523> yes, you can define function pointer vars
22:03:53 <pikhq> Oh, also pointers.
22:03:56 <Deewiant> pikhq: GCC doesn't accept those declarations, FWIW.
22:04:04 <ais523> you're right, those would probably be more useful than function pointers
22:04:11 <Deewiant> pikhq: At global scope, but not at function scope.
22:04:15 <pikhq> Deewiant: Hmm. Oh, right. It does for global vars, I think.
22:04:16 <ais523> you could do arithmetic on NULL+integer
22:04:30 <ais523> it would be undefined, but would mostly work in practice
22:04:34 <ais523> and yes, int*a is valid
22:04:46 <ais523> although you'd probably want to use char*
22:04:58 <ais523> you can use *a, not just a
22:04:58 <pikhq> ... God, you could do int*a=malloc(sizeof(int));*a=x;XD
22:05:12 <ais523> but how are you going to define malloc?
22:05:24 <ais523> #include <stdlib.h> doesn't work
22:05:25 <Deewiant> Alternatively, int*a; and then cast it to an integer type all the time
22:05:27 <AnMaster> ais523, "apart from standard includes at top" I said
22:05:30 <Deewiant> ais523: AnMaster allowed #includes
22:05:32 <ehird> ais523: #include<stdlib.h>
22:05:40 <ais523> well, you can write void*malloc(size_t);
22:05:43 <Deewiant> But even if you don't allow them, you can declare it
22:05:44 <ais523> without any whitespace
22:05:44 <pikhq> ais523, GCC will just complain about the implicit declaration.
22:05:51 <AnMaster> ais523, what about defining size_t then
22:05:57 <pikhq> And yes, you can do the declaration anyways.
22:06:03 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, good point
22:06:12 <ais523> you'd have to guess how big a size_t was, and put that type in there instead
22:06:18 <ais523> in fact, you'd have to hope it was unsigned int
22:06:21 <AnMaster> ais523, unsigned long wouldn't work
22:06:23 <ais523> because the other possible types contain spaces
22:06:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: Yes it would. It's 32-bit on x86_32 and 64-bit on x86_64.
22:07:09 <pikhq> Oh. *Unsigned* long.
22:07:11 <ais523> size_t tends, in practice, to be as big as a pointer
22:07:12 <AnMaster> I think plain long would work if you made sure to only do small allocations
22:08:00 <pikhq> No structs or typedefs or unions.
22:08:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, just use int*structs_a;
22:08:49 <AnMaster> yes it would be split over several arrays
22:08:51 <ehird> just use arrays somehow
22:09:23 <pikhq> ehird: That wouldn't work.
22:09:38 <AnMaster> because the array isn't allocated anywhere
22:09:57 <pikhq> It was a crap example.
22:09:57 <ehird> i meant "basic idea, make it work"
22:10:22 <AnMaster> since I suspect it can't work, apart from for integer variables in the array in C89
22:11:06 <pikhq> Actually, it just *might* work, so long as that pointer never, ever leaves the function scope.
22:11:18 <AnMaster> anyway structs split over several malloced arrays would work fine, it would even be in line with current trends, stream processing stuff and such. Unit stride. Buzz words.
22:11:42 <AnMaster> pikhq, I don't think it would compile
22:12:20 <pikhq> AnMaster: A lot of weird shit compiles.
22:12:47 * Sgeo sends 10 ultraviolent norns through the warp
22:13:22 <Sgeo> Maybe I should make them unrejectable, for extra fun!
22:14:28 <Sgeo> So far, Hinco hasn't rejected any of my norns, as far as I can tell
22:14:36 <Sgeo> Ok, Hinco rejected a norn
22:15:09 <Sgeo> Some random DS user
22:15:53 <Sgeo> Gah, when I send a rejected norn through, it keeps being sent to the user who rejected him
22:17:59 <ais523> time to go home, I think
22:18:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:20:11 <AnMaster> Sgeo, does this game exist in a single player edition?
22:20:12 * Sgeo vaguly wonders if his norns are causing death around the Warp
22:20:23 <Sgeo> AnMaster, well, you don't have to go online >.>
22:20:37 <AnMaster> and ehird said it was freeware for linux? hm
22:20:41 <Sgeo> Docking Station, part of the Creatures series
22:21:58 <Sgeo> http://www.gamewaredevelopment.co.uk/downloads_more.php?id=448_0_8_0_M13 for Linux
22:22:16 <Sgeo> You'll need to patch some script with http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/creatures/ds.diff
22:22:40 <AnMaster> naming suggestions (ehird is banned after previous bad suggestion): BF-to-C compiler written in Scheme, will be slightly optimising, but nothing fancy. Previous idea was SFUCK (as a joke on BF and S-Expressions), but I want some SFW name.
22:23:16 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that sounds like a sexual joke again :P
22:23:31 <Deewiant> To me it just sounds like it sucks
22:24:01 <Sgeo> What was ehird's suggestion?
22:24:24 <AnMaster> Sgeo, something like "thisappwillbehorrible", don't remember exactly
22:24:31 <pikhq> Including the period.
22:24:34 <AnMaster> pikhq, and I'm not going for that
22:26:51 <AnMaster> BF is short for BlueFang clearly, which is a pun on BlueTooth. Meaning it should be called RedEar?
22:28:06 <AnMaster> actually, I'll call it "after", since my other bf-to-c compiler was called "before"
22:30:21 * AnMaster throws a dice for which DVCS to use. 1 = bzr, 2 = darcs, 3 = hg, other values = rethrow.
22:30:50 -!- nooga has joined.
22:30:56 <nooga> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T41ZRw45obs rotfl
22:31:03 <AnMaster> I was worried I would end up with darcs
22:32:54 <ehird> AnMaster: "12 months" in estonian sounds like "cock tastes good" in english.
22:33:28 <Deewiant> I had to ponder that for over 10 minutes when I saw it on reddit, thinking what the hell the point was
22:33:39 <Deewiant> It helps that it sounds almost the same in Finnish
22:34:12 <AnMaster> ehird, to me it didn't sound like the English one. More like kaksties qood
22:34:22 <ehird> Because you're not English. :P
22:34:37 <Deewiant> Yeah, only English can mangle other languages so successfully
22:34:44 <ehird> At first, I thought they'd been the subject of a prank
22:34:49 <ehird> the girls didn't know estonian
22:34:53 <ehird> but had been told that translation or something
22:35:00 <ehird> it took translating it myself to realise it was pronounciation
22:35:42 <Sgeo> I think I'm going to send some superbreeders through
22:36:20 <AnMaster> Sgeo, go play SL. And spam that instead. It was less bad.
22:36:32 <ehird> AnMaster: I prefer the Creatures talk.
22:36:41 <ehird> Mostly because I've tortured my fair share of norn in my time.
22:36:48 <AnMaster> Sgeo, or even better. Go play nethack
22:37:01 <ehird> ITT: AnMaster orders people around and tells them what they enjoy
22:37:17 <AnMaster> ehird, no, I just find this completely irrelevant to the channel ;P
22:37:26 <ehird> Like 99% of talk in here.
22:37:28 <AnMaster> Sgeo, tell me about PSOX instead!
22:37:38 <AnMaster> ehird, only when you are active
22:37:55 <ehird> No, that's simply false.
22:38:00 <ehird> I do read the logs, you know.
22:39:11 <ehird> Unfortunately I don't have a strong AI to filter those
22:39:27 <AnMaster> ehird, your brain should be quite adequate I hope
22:39:53 * AnMaster tries to remember how to do file IO in scheme!
22:40:04 <ehird> AnMaster: i'm not going to manually filter logs.
22:40:13 <ehird> It's less than 50 pages!
22:40:17 <ehird> http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/
22:40:24 <ehird> http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-9.html#%_sec_6.6
22:40:27 <ehird> library procedure: (call-with-input-file string proc)
22:40:28 <ehird> library procedure: (call-with-output-file string proc)
22:40:40 <ehird> optional procedure: (with-input-from-file string thunk)
22:40:40 <ehird> optional procedure: (with-output-to-file string thunk)
22:40:49 <ehird> (with-input-from-file "foo" (lambda (s) (display s)))
22:41:22 <AnMaster> ehird, no it isn't, cat is "concatenate", meaning the point of cat is that it takes several files.
22:41:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Read esolang wiki.
22:41:40 <ehird> Our official definition of cat is copying input to output.
22:41:49 <ehird> Also, they're acceptable.
22:41:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm using the POSIX definition
22:41:57 <ehird> They deviate a bit too much from R5RS for my tastes.
22:41:59 <AnMaster> ehird, do you find any other implementation better?
22:42:04 <ehird> If you use the R5RS language, it's better.
22:42:16 <ehird> AnMaster: it depends. There is a gigantic variety, and none are perfect.
22:42:33 <Sgeo> This person must have left the door open.. they sent me my norns back in such a way that I can, without modifying anything, force them to accept it
22:42:38 <AnMaster> ehird, of course none is perfect. But which one is best.
22:42:51 <AnMaster> And it seems mzscheme defaults to R6RS.
22:43:02 <ehird> Well, slap it then and tell it to use R5RS.
22:43:27 <ehird> AnMaster: The best is probably Chez Scheme, but it's proprietary and $$$. (Chez Scheme Lite is freeware). Gambit is fast, Gauche has a lot of non-R5RS scripting-related tools. Guile is shit. MIT/GNU Scheme is *VERY* R5RS-compliant, but supports little else. (I'd prefer it if you're just writing R5RS).
22:43:48 <ehird> Scheme 48 is quite popular and R5RS-compliant, iirc. I have used it a bit and it is quite nice.
22:44:03 <ehird> Probably a good bet.
22:44:07 <AnMaster> "(I'd prefer it if you're just writing R5RS)." <-- why do you care?
22:44:20 <ehird> AnMaster: I mean, I'd prefer that implementation if I'm just writing R5RS
22:44:26 <ehird> That's what that usage means
22:44:39 <ehird> OTOH, I do recommend writing R5RS :-P
22:45:14 <ehird> ehird's recommended Scheme development environment: Scheme 48 (http://s48.org/) + Emacs + quack.el (http://www.neilvandyke.org/quack/)
22:45:16 <ehird> and a copy of R5RS.
22:45:29 <ehird> quack.el is invaluable; just remember to set its fontify style to 'emacs in your .emacs
22:45:45 <ehird> and the implementation executable nam
22:46:29 <ehird> AnMaster: If you just want to develop something Real Quick(TM), DrScheme (the "IDE") in R5RS mode + a copy of the standard works too.
22:46:54 <AnMaster> ehird, atm I just want to get a basic such compiler working
22:47:13 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving").
22:47:14 <ehird> Well, if you want something I'd recommend for R5RS work, install Scheme 48. Your package manager has it.
22:47:21 <ehird> (that's not even a conditional. It has it :-P)
22:47:36 <ehird> It's been under development since 1987, IIRC.
22:47:39 <AnMaster> and I dislike the indention style used in DrScheme :(
22:47:41 <ehird> It's a bytecode compiler/interpreter
22:47:44 <ehird> AnMaster: Use Quack. Srsly.
22:47:51 <ehird> Although it uses much the same style.
22:47:58 <ehird> The indentation of Scheme code is a subtle art. It takes getting used to.
22:48:07 <ehird> The name ‘Scheme 48’ commemorates our having written the original version in forty-eight hours, on August 6th and 7th, 1986.
22:48:13 <ehird> AnMaster: and scheme48 :-P
22:48:33 <AnMaster> ehird, is 1.8 last version of that?
22:48:50 <ehird> well, it's over a year old, but it is the latest version
22:49:22 <ehird> 0.35, but it doesn't matter.
22:49:32 <ehird> AnMaster: Note: s48's REPL doesn't do command line editing. Use rlwrap or better, interact via Quack.
22:49:48 * AnMaster files a post-it note to the edge of his monitor to file a bug about the quack package being outdated
22:50:19 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Note: s48's REPL doesn't do command line editing. Use rlwrap or better, interact via Quack. <-- guile had a VERY good line editing REPL, with highlighting of matching () too
22:50:33 <ehird> (setq quack-fontify-style 'emacs)
22:50:34 <ehird> (setq quack-default-program "scheme48")
22:50:36 <ehird> (setq quack-run-scheme-always-prompts-p nil)
22:50:38 <ehird> AnMaster: ↑ how to set up quack in .emacs
22:50:49 <ehird> and Guile doesn't even get continuations right!
22:50:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Doesn't ask you what scheme impl you want to start every single time.
22:51:07 <ehird> Anyway, after doing that, open a .scm and type C-c C-l
22:51:12 <ehird> the window will split into your file and a REPL.
22:51:30 <ehird> From there... well... M-x quack-<TAB> and see what it can do :-P
22:51:37 <AnMaster> I have that bound to other things
22:51:37 <ehird> AnMaster: aka "load-file"
22:51:55 <ehird> AnMaster: All Lisp modes use it.
22:52:15 <AnMaster> ehird, um no? I tried the elisp mode just now
22:52:27 <ehird> The elisp mode isn't much of a mode.
22:52:31 <ehird> Since it works nothing like most Lisps.
22:53:16 <AnMaster> checked in default scheme mode toop
22:53:25 <ehird> maybe I misremember
22:53:31 <ehird> just ask emacs what quack-load-file or whatever is bound to
22:53:51 <ehird> The nice thing about emacs/quack is that printf-debugging becomes really hard: you have to switch to a terminal, get the command to do it, and run it.
22:53:58 <ehird> Whereas trying in the repl is just a few keys.
22:54:33 <AnMaster> ehird, which is worst: Guile or R6RS?
22:54:48 <ehird> They're both awful in entirely different ways.
22:55:07 <ehird> They can be both as terribly awful as each other and live separate, peaceful lives of hate and rage.
22:55:30 <AnMaster> someone should implement R6RS in guile
22:56:07 <AnMaster> ehird, you have contacts in the maffia?
22:56:19 <ehird> No. I have contacts in the maffffffffffffffffffffffffffffia though.
22:57:03 <AnMaster> isn't that the spelling in Englush
22:58:09 <ehird> We are being targeted by the mafffffffffffffffffffffffff(3 minutes of f)fffia.
22:59:02 <AnMaster> I can't even imagine how you thought that would be a joke. It can't be anything else though
22:59:40 <ehird> It is not a joke as such. It is just an amusing image.
23:03:01 <ehird> POINTLESS PROJECT IDEA #4564: watercool a 386.
23:03:38 <pikhq> POINTLESS PROJECT IDEA #4563: make a 386 that needs watercooling.
23:03:47 <ehird> That would be some terrible 386.
23:04:02 <AnMaster> what about massive SMP with 386
23:04:12 <pikhq> No, it would be a 386 with some incredible clock speeds.
23:04:23 <ehird> A cluster of three hundred and eighty-six 386s.
23:04:25 <AnMaster> ehird, no no. at least a thousand of them
23:04:29 <ehird> Running at 386MHz each.
23:04:33 <pikhq> A 386 at 3GHz would probably need some ridiculous cooling.
23:04:47 <ehird> 386 386s @ 3.86GHz
23:05:11 <AnMaster> where would you fit the 387 co-processors
23:05:15 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal").
23:05:38 <pikhq> You'd have 387 of them.
23:05:46 <AnMaster> ehird, heuristics detected popular culture reference. Not found in database.
23:05:49 <ehird> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace
23:06:00 <AnMaster> I'm not clicking tvtroupe links
23:06:06 <ehird> AnMaster: curl http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace | w3m -dump
23:06:21 <ehird> w3m -dump erases links :-)
23:06:37 <ehird> but you need to do
23:06:39 <ehird> w3m -dump /dev/stdin
23:06:57 <ehird> AnMaster: curl http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace>x&& w3m -dump x|$EDITOR
23:07:09 <ehird> that doesn't work either
23:07:26 <ehird> AnMaster: w3m -dump http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Hammerspace|$EDITOR
23:08:07 <AnMaster> everything in a thin column at the middle
23:08:09 <ehird> the text column is just a little small
23:08:13 <ehird> it's still perfectly readable
23:08:24 <ehird> or whatever the emacs command is to reformat
23:09:14 <AnMaster> ehird, define:whatever in this context
23:09:25 <ehird> whatever=anything you want, except less enthusiastic
23:10:18 <ehird> I wonder how quiet modern watercooled systems are.
23:11:07 <ehird> "In April 2008, Cray and Intel announced they would collaborate on future supercomputer systems. The first product from this collaboration, the Cray CX1, was launched in September the same year. This is a blade server system, comprising up to 16 dual- or quad-core Intel Xeon processors, with either Microsoft Windows HPC Server 2008 or Red Hat Enterprise Linux installed. "
23:11:11 <ehird> THAT's a super-computer?
23:11:22 <ehird> 32 cores of a regular server processor. Woop de doo.
23:12:41 <ehird> pikhq: share in my outraeg.
23:12:43 <pikhq> That's two of our silly all-the-money build.
23:12:57 <ehird> also, that's cuz we weren't optimizing for processors :P
23:13:04 <ehird> but seriously, it only costs $10k too
23:13:15 <pikhq> Still, we had 8 chips in the damn thing.
23:13:21 <ehird> it's just a high end number-cruncher
23:13:50 <pikhq> A supercomputer is more than 4U.
23:14:16 <pikhq> I mean, jeeze. That's 16 freaking *blades*.
23:14:32 <pikhq> That's a single blade chassis!
23:14:36 <ehird> sheesh, this supercomputer thing is crap
23:14:43 <ehird> it's just a bunch of regular Xeon machines stuck together
23:14:46 <pikhq> Sure, it's pricy stuff, but a supercomputer?
23:15:02 <pikhq> That's a low-to-midrange cluster, I guess...
23:15:19 <Sgeo> Why wouldn't AnHammer want to click Tv Trope links?
23:15:22 <Sgeo> Too addictive?
23:15:37 <ehird> AnMaster: /nick plz
23:15:53 <ehird> 23:15 Sgeo: Why wouldn't AnHammer want to click Tv Trope links?
23:15:54 <ehird> 23:15 ehird: AnHammer.
23:16:19 <AnMaster> ehird, not going to change to that nick. And you can take it if you want. I don't care.
23:16:28 <AnMaster> just going to confuse tab completion for everyone else
23:17:05 <AnMaster> <Sgeo> Too addictive? <-- help help I'm held prisoner in a wiki about tv troupes
23:19:41 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me what it means then
23:20:02 <AnMaster> crabbed: annoyed and irritable
23:20:02 <AnMaster> wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
23:20:24 <AnMaster> ehird, why would it be odd not to know it?
23:20:37 <ehird> It's like the most commenest word ever :P
23:20:50 <AnMaster> ehird, um. I think "a" or possibly "an" is in English
23:21:16 <AnMaster> I don't have a word frequency table for English handly
23:23:13 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:25:56 <nooga> polish 'no' = english 'yep'
23:26:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:33:26 <ehird> I think we should start making other languages look bad. Brainfuck has too long been the standard for "this language is as readable as X!"
23:33:36 <ehird> We must create new horrific things to make mainstream languages look bad :-)
23:33:56 <pikhq> As it just so happens, Brainfuck is a poor language for such comparisons.
23:34:07 <pikhq> Brainfuck is relatively legible.
23:35:33 <oerjan> malbolge, on the other hand.
23:37:18 <Asztal> whitespace is kind of hard to read, too, without a syntax highlighter...
23:46:20 <ehird> Asztal: how goes your bef int?
23:46:41 <Asztal> haven't touched it in months :)
23:47:10 <Asztal> I'm quite happy to be avoiding C++, really
23:47:13 <ehird> Asztal: I wasn't asking about your mother
23:47:19 <ehird> dammit why did you have to get that line in
23:56:38 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glide_API anyone remember this
23:56:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined.
23:56:48 <ehird> goddamn, Voodoo cards.
23:56:52 <ehird> those things sucked :)
23:56:59 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/nornfest.PNG
23:57:28 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: those components arrived?
23:58:22 <Sgeo> Just killed them all
23:58:29 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: what OS you sticking on it?
23:58:31 <Sgeo> Hahaha at the gravestones rolling across the screen
23:59:07 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: I'd go for a linux distro due to the lvm ssd shit
23:59:34 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: sure it is
23:59:38 <Sgeo> http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/screenshots/nornfest_dead.PNG
23:59:59 <ehird> bsmntbombdood: compared to the fragmented table that the SSD will do instead...