00:00:20 <GregorR-L> I pronounce it "War-chester-shire" and then people tell me I'm pronouncing it wrong and I say "fuck you I refuse to pronounce it like that"
00:00:37 <pikhq> Gregor, I kill you.
00:01:20 <GregorR-L> ehird got in to the liquor cabinet.
00:01:38 <ehird> I AM - the liquor. uhhhh
00:01:59 <ehird> that was what you thought before you thought that what you thought was what you thought before you thought that what you thought was what you thought.
00:03:17 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> I have no way to listen to any music while on this account
00:03:29 <ehird> Wow, the endpcnoise support people are really helpful
00:03:48 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Unless someone can link me to some nice .ogg music?
00:06:24 <ehird> Ah, Kill Yourself - a song for the ages.
00:07:28 <pikhq> Sgeo[Pidgin]: Gregor's 5th through 8th opuses are also rather nice.
00:07:47 <ehird> No song is better than Kill Yourself. Especially because it completely lacks melody.
00:08:15 <GregorR-L> Gee, apparently my 9th and 10th suck.
00:08:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: is Kill Yourself prescribed for regular use, I mean if i kill myself and then feel bad again
00:09:34 * Sgeo[Pidgin] vaguely hopes that there's no one suicidal in here
00:10:04 <ehird> I doubt a song would convince someone to go through with it.
00:10:46 <AnMaster> <Sgeo[Pidgin]> I have no way to listen to any music while on this account <-- huh?
00:11:05 <AnMaster> Sgeo[Pidgin], I'll link you. Sec.
00:11:33 <ehird> AnMaster: GregorR-L has already filled any need.
00:11:41 <AnMaster> Sgeo[Pidgin], http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/
00:11:52 <ehird> http://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogg [counteracting]
00:11:58 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> AnMaster: the World of Goo soundtrack is in mp3s, and I can't set that up while on a guest account. Not sure how to get... Wesnoth music! OMG
00:12:10 <AnMaster> Sgeo[Pidgin], um. Those I linked are *.ogg
00:12:34 <AnMaster> wget http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/elf-land.ogg?rev=29785
00:12:35 <ehird> http://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogghttp://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogghttp://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogghttp://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogghttp://codu.org/Kill_Yourself.ogg
00:13:12 <AnMaster> Sgeo[Pidgin], svn co http://svn.gna.org/svn/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music wesnoth-music
00:13:20 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> AnMaster: actually, I can just click on a file and click download
00:13:41 <pikhq> Sgeo[Pidgin]: If you've got a build environment, mpg123.
00:13:43 <AnMaster> Sgeo[Pidgin], and why can't you just get an mp3 player btw
00:13:46 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
00:13:52 <pikhq> Install it in ~/local/
00:13:53 <AnMaster> Sgeo[Pidgin], surely gcc is installed?
00:14:19 <AnMaster> no system is complete without a full software compiling environment
00:14:25 <ehird> 00:14 AnMaster: no system is complete without a full software compiling environment
00:14:32 <ehird> Bull + Shit = That.
00:14:35 <ehird> (Apologies to GregorR-L)
00:14:39 <AnMaster> ehird, embedded systems excluded
00:14:52 <ehird> Shit + Bull = Atth.
00:15:44 <AnMaster> At least a C compiler, linker, make, system headers, and anything else needed to boot strap basically every other program
00:15:48 * GregorR-L wonders why "Apologies to GregorR-L" on that ...
00:15:54 <ehird> GregorR-L: I stole it from you :P
00:16:18 <ehird> It's shit that comes from a bull.
00:17:16 <ehird> GregorR-L: Can you explain to AnMaster why the vast majority of users have absolutely no need whatsoever for a compilation environment?
00:17:31 <GregorR-L> ehird: Although it's clearly the case, no, I cannot :P
00:17:52 <AnMaster> ehird, the vast majority of users won't need to program themselves sure. But they will some day need to compile a program. IMO.
00:18:00 <AnMaster> it should be taught in schools
00:18:13 <ehird> AnMaster: You're batshit insane and I hope you never get into a position to introduce things into the curriculum.
00:18:43 <ehird> And compile a program.
00:18:45 <ehird> You're mad. Barmy.
00:18:57 <AnMaster> write a document, and print it
00:19:00 <ehird> Completely out of the loop.
00:19:06 <ehird> Two marbles short of a fruitcake.
00:19:13 <AnMaster> and basic "read the INSTALL file"
00:19:25 <AnMaster> in fact. it would be enough to teach RTFM
00:19:43 <ehird> ... Tom Cruise, who?
00:19:55 <ehird> GregorR-L: Please save me from the mad "every user will one day need to compile a program and it should be taught in schools" person who doesn't know who Tom Cruise is
00:20:09 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I revised that
00:20:12 <AnMaster> "<AnMaster> in fact. it would be enough to teach RTFM "
00:20:39 <AnMaster> how you best search for information
00:20:50 <AnMaster> stuff like how to search on google, where to find manuals
00:21:27 <ehird> A manual is a sign of a bad UI in 90% of cases.
00:21:45 <AnMaster> ehird, there will always be users who do not understand the UI
00:21:58 <GregorR-L> The ones who speak Swedish haw haw
00:22:12 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, that joke didn't even make any sense.
00:22:29 <ehird> 00:22 mauke: my ($fst, $snd) = m{^((?:[^\\/]|\\.)*)/(.*)\z}s; $fst =~ s/\\(.)/$1/sg;
00:22:34 <ehird> a programmer in oerjan's kin
00:22:34 <pikhq> ehird, a lack of a manual is a sign of a bad UI in 90% of cases.
00:22:43 <pikhq> Really, 90% of all UIs are bad.
00:22:46 <ehird> pikhq: Your mom is a sign of your face in 110% of cases.
00:23:42 <AnMaster> Lets not sink to that level of insults. It is like a sub-form of Godwin's law.
00:24:02 <ehird> Whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
00:24:04 <ehird> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
00:24:06 <ehird> oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
00:24:08 <ehird> ooooooooooooooooooooooooosh.
00:28:05 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Pidgin integrates with the thingy on the upper right
00:28:50 <AnMaster> what thingy on the upper right?
00:29:15 <ehird> Sgeo[Pidgin]: wait, you are concerned about security
00:29:24 * ehird lols all over the floor
00:29:34 <pikhq> You know the word "security", and use Windows?
00:29:34 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> When I'm concerned about security, I'll use Linux
00:29:39 * pikhq joins ehird in loling
00:29:47 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> When I'm not, which is most of the time, I'll use Windows
00:29:50 * ehird stabs Sgeo[Pidgin]
00:30:02 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Why can't I choose when to care about security?
00:30:11 <ehird> She is a duck witch Sgeo pidgeon.
00:30:15 * ehird stabs Sgeo[Pidgin] some more
00:30:29 <pikhq> Sgeo[Pidgin]: Because if you *really* want to run Windows, the sanest way to do it is in a virtual machine.
00:30:30 <AnMaster> ehird, err, she also floats on the water?
00:30:33 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Most of the time, for me, Games > Security. When Security > Games, I'll boot into Linux. Not that difficult
00:30:51 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> pikhq: can I transfer my current system into a VM easily?
00:30:59 <GregorR-L> Not-wanting-to-kill-myself > games :P
00:31:10 <pikhq> Not-wanting-to-stab-computer > games.
00:31:23 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> So far, no viruses come with ext3 drivers, right?
00:31:28 <pikhq> Sgeo[Pidgin]: Possible, but not likely.
00:31:49 <AnMaster> not-wanting-to-run-Distributed.Storm > games
00:31:59 <pikhq> Also, it wouldn't be hard for a virus to have ext3 support.
00:32:09 <pikhq> First, the source code for userspace ext3 handling is out there.
00:32:17 <pikhq> Second, there is an ext2 driver for Windows.
00:32:24 <ehird> Linux virus: rm -rf ~
00:32:36 <AnMaster> ehird, unless there is a kernel bug it can exploit
00:32:43 <GregorR-L> It would be endlessly amusing if the first implementation of ext4 on Windows was part of a virus :P
00:32:46 <ehird> It's a Unix virus!
00:32:55 <GregorR-L> (That infects Linux by means of infecting Windows)
00:33:04 <pikhq> GregorR-L: That would be hilarious.
00:33:14 <ehird> open source viruses would be coo
00:33:23 <ehird> i'd be down with viruses if they were FOSS
00:33:32 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Using the Windows installer to install Linux doesn't make things worse than a regular multi-partition setup, does it?
00:33:39 <ehird> Sgeo[Pidgin]: It does.
00:33:46 <ehird> Wubi puts your linux partition as an ntfs file.
00:33:53 <ehird> It's le awful, and does no partitioning.
00:33:59 <ehird> And is le dependent on le windows.
00:34:08 <pikhq> Didn't realise that it was using *that* hack.
00:34:11 <ehird> GregorR-L: FIRE ZE MISSILES!!!!
00:34:20 <GregorR-L> *whew*, glad somebody got the reference :P
00:34:37 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> I guess malware could just delete my Linux system without it even being designed to attack Linux in any way
00:34:44 <pikhq> Not as plain screwy as umsdosfs, though.
00:34:46 <ehird> Sgeo[Pidgin]: securitywise,
00:34:51 <ehird> it'll be infected by NTFS-infecting viruses
00:35:02 <GregorR-L> Sgeo[Pidgin]: Well, if it can get access from Windows to the Linux disk, then it could install something which will run as root.
00:35:03 <pikhq> Emulating UNIX filesystem features on FAT!
00:35:08 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> ehird: it's not a single file that uses ext3 internally?
00:35:15 <ehird> Sgeo[Pidgin]: yes, but viruses will fuck with it
00:35:47 <pikhq> They might well do something weird like insert their code into it.
00:35:53 <ehird> Yeah, and break Linux.
00:35:56 <ehird> Not infect, but break.
00:35:58 <AnMaster> " Genre: Romantic Classical" <-- how the heck did they class this morden game music in wesnoth as that. (mplayer reported that from the metadata in the file)
00:35:59 <ehird> Goddamn, just partition.
00:36:15 <pikhq> Especially with Ubuntu.
00:36:16 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: The metadata is annoyingly limited.
00:36:33 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, no way these are time typical instruments from the romantic period.
00:36:36 <pikhq> It literally has "Install alongside Windows? [yes] [no]"...
00:36:58 <ehird> GregorR-L: Winamp extended ID3 has Primus as a genre.
00:37:05 <ehird> And Christian Gangsta Rap, iirc.
00:37:05 <pikhq> GregorR-L: I thought Ogg metadata used arbitrary strings?
00:37:10 <ehird> It's limited because Winamp developers are dicks.
00:37:15 <Sgeo[Pidgin]> Don't feel like walking across the house to get a CD to burn. I do feel like making lame excuses for everything
00:37:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, and no way the music is that either
00:37:20 <GregorR-L> AnMaster: Hard rock played on a string quartet is not classical :P
00:37:35 <GregorR-L> (Which is to say, the instrument selection is a bad way to determine genre)
00:37:38 <AnMaster> GregorR, agreed. But what has that got to do with it
00:38:04 <AnMaster> actually, what would hard rock on a string quartet sound like
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00:38:06 <pikhq> Hard rock on a string quartet is certainly *awesome*...
00:38:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Awesome.
00:38:10 <pikhq> Just not classical.
00:38:20 <ehird> AnMaster: Post-rock would be close, but it's less... hard.
00:38:22 <pikhq> Don't have Youtube links handy, sadly.
00:38:36 <ehird> But post-rock has things like electric guitars being played with violin... pokers, and tons of strings, and whatnot.
00:38:51 <AnMaster> ehird, just some good representative example that I can listen for 10 seconds to and then rant about for a minute or two.
00:39:44 <ehird> I don't know about hard-rock-quartet... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsf2LoLk3SA&fmt=18 is some nice post-rock, though.
00:39:50 <AnMaster> hm what genre is http://svn.gna.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/wesnoth/trunk/data/core/music/casualties_of_war.ogg?rev=35621 actually
00:39:52 <ehird> But also, uh, 10 minutes.
00:39:54 <ehird> So you'd have to skip around a lot.
00:40:07 <ehird> 6:43 is quite representative.
00:40:40 <AnMaster> ehird, there is fmt=22 nowdays too iirc
00:40:50 <ehird> That video does not have an HD version.
00:41:08 <AnMaster> ehird, which is the best format for video and sound quality
00:41:19 <ehird> but it also takes 5 years to load, and isn't real HD
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00:41:50 <ehird> 22 = HD, 18 = HQ, dunno = regular.
00:42:03 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YouTube#Format_and_quality_comparison_table
00:42:18 <ehird> Well, I don't know.
00:42:32 <Sgeo> What's the difference between HD and HQ?
00:42:41 <ehird> HQ is just a bit higher bitrate
00:42:46 <ehird> HD is a lot higher resolution
00:42:50 <ehird> and all-around much better quality
00:42:53 <ehird> i.e. it is actually watchable
00:43:20 <AnMaster> ehird, any sudden volume changes in that?
00:43:32 <AnMaster> <ehird> I don't know about hard-rock-quartet... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsf2LoLk3SA&fmt=18 is some nice post-rock, though. <-- that one
00:43:46 <ehird> No. Listen to the first few seconds, go to 3 minutes in, 6:30 ... then 7:45, should give a representative sample of the entire track.
00:43:51 <AnMaster> and you said it had string quartet?
00:43:54 <pikhq> Youtube's HD is 720p.
00:43:58 <ehird> "I don't know about hard-rock-quartet"
00:44:01 <ehird> AnMaster: it has strings, though.
00:44:29 <pikhq> (last I checked, 720p is real HD)
00:45:02 <AnMaster> ehird, that isn't very rock like. At least the classical type of rock.
00:45:05 <GregorR-L> Anything greater than 480 is HD :P
00:45:31 <ehird> Post-rock is more classical music with a beat and some modern instruments
00:45:45 <AnMaster> ehird, not much beat in that one
00:46:01 <ehird> Eh, it has drums in a rhythmical pattern.
00:46:04 <AnMaster> anything more than PAL is HD !
00:46:11 <ehird> Anything more than 1x1 is HD.
00:46:28 <AnMaster> I haven't got to the other bits yet
00:46:28 <Sgeo> Should I try actually playing Wesnoth?
00:46:31 <ehird> Post rock does have a lot of very long intros/outros.
00:46:45 <ehird> Seeing as almost all of it is about 10 minutes long.
00:46:58 <AnMaster> Sgeo, if you like turned based strategy games set in a fantasy environment yes.
00:47:12 <Sgeo> AnMaster, never really tried one before
00:47:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't like the start at all. Not sure what the instrument was there
00:47:37 <Sgeo> I read a comic that's about something that looks like a turn based strategy game set in a fantasy environment
00:47:45 <AnMaster> ehird, why is there just a still picture of some odd orange dots for the video part
00:48:05 <ehird> AnMaster: It is the cover of the EP it's from, Slow Riot for New Zerø Kanada. (Yes, with the ø.) It's Hebrew.
00:48:08 <ehird> "tohu va vohu" (תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ)
00:48:15 <ehird> It means "nothingness", "void", etc.
00:48:18 <ehird> It's from the Bible.
00:49:04 <ehird> Well, it's not much of an EP more as a gigantic single; it's just two tracks of 10/17 minutes respectively and they flow into each other.
00:49:33 * AnMaster has no idea about the difference
00:49:40 <ehird> EP is sub-30 minutes, pretty much.
00:49:49 <AnMaster> and what does the E stand for?
00:49:55 <ehird> Extended Play vs Long Play.
00:49:57 <AnMaster> (what does the L in LP stand for btw...)
00:50:17 <ehird> Godspeed You! Black Emperor's actual albums are quite the long; the LP version of Yanqui U.X.O. is 83:58 long.
00:50:19 <AnMaster> ehird, at 08:06 it is horrible btw
00:50:38 <ehird> Did it become too musical? ;-)
00:50:39 <AnMaster> well at 07:45 it is bad already
00:51:11 <AnMaster> ehird, 1) too much "guitar in pain"
00:51:28 <AnMaster> 2) mostly noise + hammering on the trums?
00:51:41 <ehird> It doesn't sound like noise to me.
00:51:49 <ehird> But then, I've listened to actual noise music.
00:51:57 <AnMaster> ehird, what about the guitar in pain bit
00:52:09 <ehird> It doesn't sound like a guitar to me.
00:52:17 <AnMaster> overdrive or whatever the technical term is
00:52:24 <ehird> No, that's not overdrive.
00:52:29 <ehird> Overdrive is the distorted guitar sound.
00:52:32 <AnMaster> ehird, what is that sound then
00:52:46 <ehird> I don't know; it just sounds like a violin-y type instrument to me. Bow-y sort of thin.
00:53:33 <AnMaster> whatever it is, it isn't violin as I'm used to. But then maybe a violin played non-classically is like that.
00:54:04 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't heard at 09:12
00:54:23 <ehird> It seems my local copy of Moya is corrupted.
00:54:26 <AnMaster> starts at 09:18 to be specific
00:54:30 <ehird> It's been replaced with BBF3...
00:54:33 <ehird> So I can't seek there, sry
00:54:46 <ehird> BBF3 is the second track on the EP.
00:54:49 <ehird> And Moya is the name of that track.
00:54:56 <ehird> YouTube's seeking is broken for me
00:55:36 <AnMaster> Homepage: http://bitbucket.org/rg3/youtube-dl/
00:55:42 <AnMaster> $ youtube-dl -f 18 -g http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsf2LoLk3SA
00:55:42 <AnMaster> http://www.youtube.com/get_video?video_id=Rsf2LoLk3SA&t=vjVQa1PpcFP3IBND5TL6Ui4VDVPVt1LViKkQEiNtjPc=&fmt=18
00:55:46 <AnMaster> not sure if they code that for ip or such
00:55:54 <AnMaster> try to wget that one. It might work
00:57:52 <ehird> http://www.marvell.com/products/embedded_processors/developer/kirkwood/sheevaplug.jsp Oh my god cool
00:57:57 <ehird> It's a computer that you just plug in
00:58:06 <ehird> Smallest thing evar
00:59:10 <ehird> I don't have a thing to play flvs
00:59:16 <AnMaster> ehird, err it should result in an *.mp4
00:59:34 <ehird> 2009-05-16 00:59:31 ERROR 403: Forbidden.
00:59:35 <AnMaster> $ youtube-dl -f 18 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rsf2LoLk3SA
00:59:38 <AnMaster> [youtube] Rsf2LoLk3SA: URL: http://www.youtube.com/get_video?video_id=Rsf2LoLk3SA&t=vjVQa1PpcFMVFjf32EvGGWmN31bE9d4hzsYrdrQ_0ds=&fmt=18
00:59:38 <AnMaster> [download] Destination: Rsf2LoLk3SA.mp4
01:00:05 <AnMaster> ehird, then you need to generate the url locally
01:00:19 <AnMaster> ehird, http://bitbucket.org/rg3/youtube-dl/
01:00:24 <ehird> Link to an actual file?
01:00:35 <AnMaster> ehird, it is in python or ruby iirc
01:00:51 <ehird> Bitbucket, the github ripoff using hg/python so probably Python
01:00:57 <AnMaster> /usr/bin/youtube-dl: a python script text executable
01:01:15 <AnMaster> http://bitbucket.org/rg3/youtube-dl/raw/2009.05.13/youtube-dl
01:01:26 <AnMaster> ehird, remember to pass -f 18 for format 18
01:01:59 <ehird> bitbucket's UI is pretty much screen-for-screen identical to github's
01:02:26 <AnMaster> ehird, looks like same basic idea that sf.net uses
01:02:41 <AnMaster> Overview Downloads Source Changesets Wiki Issues
01:02:46 <ehird> but you can match any github page to any launchpad one, pretty much
01:02:57 <ehird> and the UI, layout, design and functionality are almost entirely identiacl
01:03:17 <AnMaster> sfnet: Overview, Downloads, Source (changes are found under that), wiki (they added wiki a year ago or so), bug tracker
01:03:36 <ehird> that's one minor list.
01:04:23 <AnMaster> ehird, but ok, it is very close to github
01:04:28 <AnMaster> wouldn't call it ripoff though
01:04:42 <ehird> Well, I've used github a lot so my senses may be more attuned :P
01:04:56 <AnMaster> ehird, and you might be bisaed
01:05:05 <ehird> Not really; github has a ton of flaws.
01:05:22 <AnMaster> use a more neutral word than ripoff then
01:05:42 <ehird> Flower is a very neutral word.
01:05:47 <ehird> What more could you want?
01:06:19 <AnMaster> that got a negative tone to it as well
01:06:52 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if there will ever be a game based on Erfworld
01:06:56 <AnMaster> just going out as far as you are, in the other direction
01:07:25 <Sgeo> AnMaster, comic about a fantasy turn-based world
01:07:25 <Sgeo> http://www.erfworld.com/
01:08:08 <Sgeo> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfworld
01:08:18 <ehird> AnMaster: whre's the screech
01:08:35 <Sgeo> "Erfworld: The Battle for Gobwin Knob is a story-driven fantasy/comedy webcomic about a master strategy gamer stuck in a wargame. "
01:08:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: whre's the screech <-- ?
01:08:50 <ehird> that you got me to dl this vid for
01:09:13 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't heard at 09:12
01:09:15 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> starts at 09:18 to be specific
01:09:49 <ehird> I think that's just a bunch of echoes, maybe some fallout from the guitar.
01:09:57 <ehird> The drums are a likely culprit too.
01:10:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yes the drums start more too
01:10:34 <AnMaster> fallout. Rock fallout protection shelter.
01:11:07 <ehird> I have a high tolerance for noisy stuff... I guess i'm a lo-fi sort of person.
01:12:46 <AnMaster> ehird, Yet you want a silent computer
01:13:01 <ehird> I have entire albums that spend their whole lives at 100% volume and distortion heaven...
01:13:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, go figure.
01:13:10 <ehird> Computer noise isn't very pleasing P
01:13:35 <AnMaster> ehird, to me the noise of a even slightly overdriven guitar is as bad as that of a computer
01:13:43 <ehird> You just have bad taste :-)
01:13:57 <AnMaster> and possibly electric if they skip the noise stuff.
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01:58:32 <pikhq> I quite like distorted guitar.
01:58:46 <pikhq> Now what really irks me is stuff that's at 100% volume for the whole album.
01:58:54 <pikhq> That just sounds crappy.
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07:12:30 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
07:12:34 <Sgeo> Wolfram Alpha doesn't know about Brainfuck!
07:13:23 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes deleted.
07:13:43 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
07:13:43 <EgoBot> Interpreter http___oerjan_nvg_org_esoteric_slashes_slashes_pl does not exist!
07:15:53 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
07:15:54 <EgoBot> Interpreter http___oerjan_nvg_org_esoteric_slashes_slashes_pl does not exist!
07:16:11 <oerjan> ok it's not the nvg web server's fault
07:16:21 <oerjan> GregorR: ^ web problem
07:17:02 <oerjan> !addinterp slashes perl http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/slashes.pl
07:17:06 <EgoBot> Interpreter slashes installed.
07:17:28 <oerjan> !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/crashtest.sss
07:17:30 <EgoBot> Complex regular subexpression recursion limit (32766) exceeded at /tmp/input.636 line 16, <> line 516.
07:18:01 <oerjan> that didn't help either here or there
07:18:31 <Sgeo> So it was less a web problem and more a PEBKAC problem? (No offense)
07:19:29 * oerjan always finds himself interpreting PEBKAC as being in the russian alphabet
07:19:59 <oerjan> so does "revkas" mean anything in russian, i wonder
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07:29:33 <mtve> oerjan: nothing
07:30:23 <mtve> <oerjan> so does "revkas" mean anything in russian, i wonder
07:31:55 <oerjan> i got confused by GregorR-L entering, must have cleared my mental irc cache :D
07:37:48 <GregorR-L> rm -rf oerjan/.caches/mind/irc/freenode/\#esoteric
07:38:28 <oerjan> what does that mean? also, who are you?
07:39:21 <GregorR-L> "Cache" does not mean "speed booster" :P
07:39:29 <bsmntbombdood> free(hash_lookup_str(oerjan_irc_cache, "#esoteric"))
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07:41:00 <Sgeo> "Many mistaken the refrain for saying "Do the lucky lady," "Noodle knock the Navy," "Do it like a lady," or "Do the Macarena,""
07:41:09 <Sgeo> I laughed at macarena
07:41:10 <oerjan> <AnMaster> Lets not sink to that level of insults. It is like a sub-form of Godwin's law.
07:41:15 <oerjan> well, so is your face.
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07:44:55 <Gracenotes> ugh. what kind of sad place is Digg's programming section?
07:45:23 <Sgeo> http://oneoverzero.comicgenesis.com/faq.html
07:45:25 <oerjan> Gracenotes: should i be very happy that i have no idea? :D
07:45:27 <Sgeo> Gracenotes, why?
07:45:58 <oerjan> ah, 1/0, my first webcomic
07:46:53 <Gracenotes> it's rather low volume, and the volume it has is hardly interesting? Largely web development stuff and plebeian complaints about software
07:47:04 <GregorR-L> I started reading the FAQ, then got bored because they were all really bad jokes.
07:47:25 <Gracenotes> web development meaning PHP, for the most part
07:52:30 <Gracenotes> but, I mean, as opposed to complaints about software from a design perspective, just complaining.
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08:30:04 <GregorR-L> If anybody has any interest in MUSHes, I just threw one up on codu.org for giggles. Type '!mush' or telnet/mushclient to codu.org:6250
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09:59:31 <impomatic> Has anyone played Pascal Robots? Most of the websites about it seem to have vanished.
10:01:40 <ais523> impomatic: I'm afraid not
10:04:53 <impomatic> Hi ais523. I don't expect many people have, considering how little there is on the net.
10:05:44 <ais523> I must get that BF Joust for EgoBot finished off
10:05:55 <ais523> you keep reminding me of BF Joust just by existing
10:05:59 <ais523> which is a good thing, I suppose
10:06:21 <impomatic> I'm just mirroring the p-robots stuff from Geocities at the moment.
10:07:06 <impomatic> Are there any important Esoteric sites on Geocities. It'd be handy to get them mirrored before Geocities closes.
10:07:09 <ais523> so much useful stuff was there
10:07:15 <ais523> and the BANCStar site's probably the most important
10:07:28 <ais523> it received a cease-and-desist once, though
10:07:46 <impomatic> Oh? Is there any info about that anywhere?
10:08:13 <impomatic> Are you making a BF Joust King of the Hill?
10:09:01 <ais523> which I can link you to if you like
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10:10:46 <ais523> let me dig up the link
10:11:58 <ais523> http://pastebin.ca/1414581
10:16:45 <impomatic> I've copy/pasted it to experiment with later :-) I assume it'll work on any version of Perl
10:17:09 <ais523> as you can see near the top
10:17:19 <ais523> because I find it hard to un-learn new features
10:17:25 <ais523> some people are on 5.8 still
10:18:45 <impomatic> Hmmm... mine is 5.8.7, will upgrade later ;-)
10:19:02 <ais523> it shouldn't be too hard to backport it
10:19:09 <ais523> you'd just have to rewrite the given blocks explicitly
10:19:56 <impomatic> Easier for me to upgrade. I've got a copy of Learning Perl, but haven't read it yet!
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10:20:59 <impomatic> There's a few programs I want to port to Perl before I publish them, so I really ought to start reading it.
10:24:27 <ais523> that program allows a couple of abbreviations that I often find wanting to use in BF Joust programs
10:24:40 <ais523> (+-)*5 is equivalent to +-+-+-+-+-
10:24:46 <ais523> so it accepts run-length encoding
10:25:14 <ais523> you can also create nested patterns like this: (>{+-}<)%5 is equivalent to >>>>>+-<<<<<
10:54:13 <oerjan> sheesh, i insert debug statements into my bct program and suddenly it works perfectly (but dog slow, naturally)
10:54:32 <oerjan> (well not the whole program, just what i have so far)
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10:55:12 <oerjan> hypothesis: something probably happens at the boundary between commands where i insert debugging
10:56:54 * oerjan rechecks that it fails without the debug statements
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11:06:08 <ais523> hmm... Wolfram Alpha's up now, and it seems partly slashdotted
11:06:13 <ais523> as in, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't
11:06:16 <ais523> it may in fact have been Cuiled
11:09:03 <ais523> unfortunately, it doesn't seem to know what the world's shortest mountain is
11:09:09 <ais523> it interprets the query correctly but gets no results
11:10:31 <impomatic> I suppose it depends how you define a mountain. Over 1000 ft?
11:11:10 <impomatic> I know my definition is different to my girlfriend's definition. Also here definition of climbing is different!
11:11:30 <ais523> well, I was hoping to use the question to probe Alpha's definition of a mountain
11:11:39 <ais523> I assume it must contain a finite number of mountains in its database
11:11:45 <ais523> and I was wondering what the shortest one was
11:16:24 <ais523> hmm... "multiply 6 by 9 in base 13" tells me that it interpreted the input as a request to multiply 6 by 9 in base 13
11:16:27 <ais523> then it doesn't tell me the answer
11:16:31 <ais523> which is slightly weird
11:17:40 <ais523> if I download the answer as PDF, in addition to the input interpretation, it gives me the result: "CalculateBaseForm(54Times, 13)"
11:17:56 <ais523> somehow I think Wolfram Alpha has trouble using Mathematica
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14:13:02 <fizzie> It also does not want to tell me the amount of mountains in the world. That out-of-capacity message is funny, though. "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that... Wolfram|Alpha has temporarily exceeded its current maximum test load. See the live video feed of the Control Center >>"
14:22:06 <impomatic> Is it wierd that I have a collection of executable compressors?
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14:24:57 <oerjan> impomatic: all squeezed together in a small place, i assume
14:27:23 * oerjan has realized he can cut off one character from his /// token encoding, by discouraging empty replacements
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14:30:58 <impomatic> Does anyone have experience of fixing "Runtime Error 200" on old executables compiled with Turbo Pascal?
14:31:21 <ais523> what's the corresponding error message?
14:31:32 <ais523> I've used turbo pascal before
14:31:38 <ais523> but don't have the error message database memorise
14:31:46 <impomatic> I've got 6 exes I want to fix. TPpatch fixed 2, but not the other 4. I also found a TSR that's supposed to fix it, but it doesn't either.
14:31:59 <ais523> do you have the source?
14:32:45 <impomatic> That's all I get, Runtime Error 200 and an address. It means there's numeric overflow in a timing routine in the setup code, due to running on a computer thats too fast.
14:33:17 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runtime_error_200
14:33:25 <impomatic> It affects most programs compiled with TP which use the screen library.
14:34:32 <impomatic> I've tried 2 of these programs: http://www.brain.uni-freiburg.de/~klaus/pascal/runerr200/download.html
14:34:57 <fizzie> Well, try more. (The tppatch thing is the only one I think I've used myself, and it worked in that case.)
14:35:15 <impomatic> I also tried using CPU Killer to slow down my computer, but it made me crash :-(
14:35:43 <ais523> <ais523> minimize x squared minus (x plus 3) <Wolfram Alpha> min {x^2 Subtract[x+3]|-2<=x<=2} ~~ minimum | {4. Subtract[1.],4. Subtract[5.],Part[]^2 Subtract[Part[]+3.]} at x~~{}[[1]]
14:37:03 <ais523> and in Mathematica, {}[[1]] refers to the first element of a zero-element list
14:37:19 <ais523> Mathematica fails the same way as Thutu with respect to such things
14:37:44 <fizzie> Though if you write "minimize x^2-(x+3)" you get a rather more reasonable answer.
14:37:55 <fizzie> What's that "x^2 Subtract[x+3]" mean anyway?
14:38:16 <ais523> fizzie: x to the power two, times the subtraction of x+3
14:39:27 <fizzie> What is "the subtraction of x+3" then?
14:39:29 <fizzie> Subtract::argr: Subtract called with 1 argument; 2 arguments are expected.
14:40:55 <fizzie> Nice function help text, though.
14:40:56 <fizzie> x - y is equivalent to x + (-1 * y).
14:41:25 <ais523> fizzie: Mathematica works the same way as Thutu behind the scenes
14:41:48 <ais523> so although the subtraction of one number makes no sense, Mathematica just leaves it literally in the answer
14:41:53 <ais523> and pattern-matches as much as it can elsewhere
14:42:13 <fizzie> Oh, yes. It's a strange way of parsing the English part, though.
14:43:50 <ais523> well, especially as it was parsed into meaningless mathematica
14:44:59 <fizzie> Heh. "five minus six" is 5-6, "five minus six plus one" somehow does 5-(6+1) which is a curious precedence, "five minus (six plus one)" is '5 Subtract[6+1]' and finally "five minus the sum of six and one" has input interpretation: "5 - ∑6⋀1" and no real result.
14:45:13 <ais523> I agree that the precedence is curious
14:46:00 <ais523> hmm... strange that Alpha don't have an opensearch tag yet
14:46:06 <ais523> so it can't be added to the firefox search box
14:46:47 <ais523> hmm... "6 times 9 in base 13" is working now
14:46:50 <ais523> and it was broken this morning
14:46:55 <ais523> I think Alpha must have been Cuiled
14:48:53 <impomatic> None of those patches work on these 4 files :-(
14:49:10 <fizzie> Running in dosbox (if it's a possibility) tends to slow things down, too.
14:50:21 <impomatic> I wanted to fix them and put them online.
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15:41:39 <ais523> hmm... it seems that the world's fastest sort ever (for a competition) was done using Java
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16:01:22 <ais523> and pretty hefty hardware, obviously
16:01:31 <ais523> the requirement was just to sort a petabyte of data
16:01:47 <ais523> key-value pairs, with 10-byte keys and 90-byte values
16:01:50 <ais523> and sorting into key order
16:04:51 * oerjan is surprised to learn that the techtinkering link on the wiki is not really spam
16:05:07 <oerjan> the edit looked so awfully generic it _could_ have been made by a spambot
16:05:40 <oerjan> i was so paranoid i opened the link in lynx, just in case :D
16:05:51 <impomatic> I suppose I ought to put an edit summary
16:05:52 <ais523> it was added by someone with the username "techtinkering"
16:06:06 <ais523> anyway, a meaningful edit summary certainly tones our spam radar down a lot
16:06:08 <ais523> as does being logged in
16:06:24 <impomatic> There's normally some interesting stuff on Lawrence's blog.
16:06:27 <oerjan> ais523: the username only reinforced my suspicion
16:06:43 <impomatic> Oh okay. I think I've added one of his links too.
16:06:51 <ais523> on the other hand, having a username means they got past the CAPTCHA
16:07:08 <ais523> which reduces the chance it's spam
16:07:19 <ais523> even though that's a trivial CAPTCHA to script around, most people couldn't be bothered
16:07:32 * oerjan probably registered before the CAPTCHA, so has forgotten all about it
16:07:51 <ais523> the CAPTCHA hits new user registrations, and anons who try to add links
16:07:59 <ais523> it keeps out the majority of confused spambots
16:08:17 <ais523> although spam not involving links gets through
16:08:33 <oerjan> ah yes i recall that brouhaha about those two insane researchers trying to save data on wikis
16:08:33 <ehird> 09:07 impomatic: Are there any important Esoteric sites on Geocities. It'd be handy to get them mirrored before Geocities closes.
16:08:36 <ehird> it's not disappearing
16:08:59 <oerjan> they tried to chastise us for having a lousy CAPTCHA
16:08:59 <ehird> impomatic: geocities is just being read-onlied
16:09:05 <ehird> oerjan: yeah, that was aumusing
16:09:12 <ehird> they said sheesh we can break trivial captchas in like 2 seconds
16:09:19 <ehird> wanted to punch 'em for that
16:09:29 <ehird> 00:58 pikhq: Now what really irks me is stuff that's at 100% volume for the whole album.
16:09:29 <ehird> 00:58 pikhq: That just sounds crappy.
16:09:30 <ehird> it's more horror vacui than bad mixing in this case
16:10:40 <fizzie> "You can continue to enjoy your web site and GeoCities services until later this year. -- We'll provide more details about closing GeoCities and how to save your site data this summer, and we will update the help center with more details at that time."
16:10:47 <fizzie> That doesn't necessary sound like just being read-onlied.
16:11:00 <ais523> I'll be upset if nobody mirrors the BancSTAR stuff
16:11:01 <fizzie> Though I guess they might be communicating elsewhere than just their faq page.
16:11:22 <oerjan> perhaps they only stopped new registrations?
16:11:28 <ehird> fizzie: no, it is read only
16:11:29 <fizzie> That's what they already did.
16:11:32 <ehird> I know this for a complete fact
16:11:32 <impomatic> ehird: from what I've read it looks like it's all disappearing.
16:11:36 <ehird> because I read the original announcement
16:11:43 <ehird> impomatic: if that is true it is a new development
16:11:54 <ehird> also, they'll never get away with it.
16:12:12 <fizzie> They've closed it for new users, and all I've seen about the future is "things will work until later this year", with no specifices.
16:12:12 <ehird> http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/geocities/geocities-05.html
16:12:20 <impomatic> I've prepared mirrors for all of the Geocities Corewar sites. Now I'm working on the sites for some other programming games.
16:12:23 <ehird> it used to be just: your site will stay
16:12:28 <ais523> ehird: <ais523> minimize x squared minus (x plus 3) <Wolfram Alpha> min {x^2 Subtract[x+3]|-2<=x<=2} ~~ minimum | {4. Subtract[1.],4. Subtract[5.],Part[]^2 Subtract[Part[]+3.]} at x~~{}[[1]]
16:12:41 <ehird> impomatic: Just contact the archive.org guys. They could mirror all of geocities ;-)
16:12:48 <ehird> ais523: so, wolfram alpha's out now is it?
16:12:57 <ais523> as in, wolfram alpha's out
16:13:04 * ehird asks it "how is babby formed"
16:13:05 <ais523> and archive.org are scraping geocities as fast as they can
16:13:15 <ais523> and that's the wrong sort of question
16:13:24 <ehird> ais523: i don't care, it should know it
16:13:26 <ehird> it's on the internet
16:13:31 <ehird> also, how did you know about archive.org
16:13:33 <ais523> it doesn't use the internet, though
16:13:43 <ais523> ofc, that could be unreliable
16:13:46 <ehird> wolfram alpha's just sitting there loading
16:13:49 <ehird> KIND OF LIKE MATHEMATICA ALWAYS DOES
16:13:52 <ais523> it's Cuiled at the moment
16:13:54 <ehird> Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.Tips for good results »
16:13:56 <ais523> although intermittently
16:14:03 <fizzie> "Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input" is a rather common result, sadly.
16:14:07 <impomatic> archive.org scraping misses a lot.
16:14:18 <ais523> Alpha doesn't use the Internet, I don't think
16:14:21 <oerjan> i tried asking "What is the second tallest mountain in the world", and it didn't understand completely. although it did suggest a related question that gave the right answer
16:14:22 <ais523> it just uses its approved databases
16:14:26 <ehird> impomatic: Erm, I think they're doing it specially
16:14:28 <ehird> i.e. with the site list?
16:14:29 <ais523> oerjan: I asked "shortest mountain", and got no result
16:14:40 <ais523> I want to know what the shortest mountain in its database is
16:14:48 <oerjan> ais523: yeah i saw that so tried a slightly more sensible one
16:14:54 <fizzie> ais523: It also doesn't know anything about "number of mountains".
16:14:59 <ais523> it wasn't an "I don't understand", it told me how it parsed the question, but not the answer
16:15:53 <impomatic> Even if it's in archive.org a proper mirror would be better. There's no proper search for the web archive, just retrieve by URL
16:15:57 <ais523> but the above garble I've pasted all over the place, including here twice, #IRP, and Slashdot, is beyond the how-could-they-manage-that stage
16:16:29 <ehird> <me> Wolfram Alpha, how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
16:16:38 <ehird> <Wolfram Alpha> I interpreted that as "how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?"
16:16:41 <ehird> <Wolfram Alpha> Result:
16:16:55 <ehird> <Wolfram Alpha> Next question?
16:16:56 <fizzie> And their natural language parsing is idiosyncratic. I can do "primes <= 100" to get a list of below-100 primes, but "sum of (primes <= 100)" gets "Input interpretation: π(100) | series representation" and a "Computation timed out" message, even though number-of-primes-less-than-100 is quite a lot different than sum-of-primes-less-than-100.
16:17:02 <ais523> ehird: yes, it does that sometimes
16:17:13 <oerjan> ehird: not even "ZOT!!!"? :(
16:18:31 <ehird> <me> sum of primes below 1000 <alpha> Assuming "sum" is a function property | Use as a sum instead <alpha> Interpretation: pi(NextPrime[1000, -1]) | series representation <alpha> Computation timed out.
16:18:39 <ehird> ais523: it's awful, isn't it?
16:18:48 <ais523> it's occasionally useful
16:18:56 <ehird> ais523: oh, and below the interpretation it says
16:19:02 <ehird> pi(x) is the number of primes less than or equal to x
16:19:03 <ais523> but it's written in Mathematica, which is part of the reason it's too slow
16:19:05 <ehird> which is, uh, not what I wanted!
16:19:12 * ehird uses as a sum instead
16:19:24 <ais523> and I get the feeling from using it that they just special-cased every possible query in existence
16:19:27 <ais523> rather than writing general code
16:20:11 <ehird> ais523: yep; I guessed that when Wolfram entered his own phrasings of queries when asked
16:20:20 <impomatic> archive.org seems to miss files when it archives a site.
16:20:30 <ehird> impomatic: it depends
16:20:37 * ehird tries sum of primes below 10, c'mon, you can do that
16:20:53 <fizzie> That pi(NextPrime[100, -1]) stuff is weird. It's "number of primes smaller than the largest prime below 100".
16:20:57 <ais523> I got it thinking for several minutes a while back with "lambda x return x"
16:21:05 <ais523> until it decided it didn't know what I meant
16:21:10 <fizzie> You get reasonable list of primes, though; I wonder why it doesn't generally sum things.
16:21:15 <ehird> "sum of primes below 10" times out.
16:21:25 <ehird> primes < 10 works, though.
16:21:46 * ehird asks it what infinity is, gets too-much-load-lol
16:21:48 <fizzie> Sure, but it's not computing the sum of that list; it's trying to do a series representation for pi there.
16:21:57 <ehird> fizzie: yes, which is retarded
16:22:12 <ais523> heh, it had "did you mean 'sum primes below'"
16:22:18 <ais523> which is also an I-don't-understand output
16:22:30 * ehird goes to slashdot to read the comments, and gets distracted
16:22:31 <ehird> "DJ Danger Mouse famously fought with EMI over his Beatles/Jay-Z mashup, 'The Grey Album,' and now seems to be battling with the label again. Rather than release his latest album and face legal issues with EMI, Techdirt is reporting that Danger Mouse will be selling a blank CD-R along with lots of artwork, and buyers will be responsible for finding the music themselves (yes, it's findable on the internet) and burning the CD."
16:22:56 <fizzie> I tried "number of retards", and it's telling me just about everything about the English word retard, with a pretty synonym network graph and everything.
16:23:09 <ais523> the synonym network graph is ridiculous
16:23:17 <ais523> in that, only about four of the nodes are labeled
16:23:20 <ais523> and they all seem irrelevant
16:23:24 * ehird asks it "wolfram's ego in nanodijkstras"
16:23:38 <ehird> actually, you could probably measure it in dijkstras
16:23:48 <ais523> more or less than 1 billion, i wonder?
16:24:23 <ehird> bah, it doesn't understand me
16:24:32 <ehird> does it accept mathematica as input, I wonder?
16:24:57 <ais523> it manages "sum ((a to the n) over n factorial)"
16:25:13 <ehird> ais523: if you install flash, you can watch wolfram people look at vague statistics of the site in realtime: http://www.justin.tv/clip/2dd6b9f07e7f8a4e
16:25:23 <ehird> one of them is standing up
16:25:28 <ehird> ooh someone came in with a cup!
16:25:33 <ehird> this is *exciting*
16:25:37 <ais523> due to being slashdotted
16:25:50 <ais523> and actually, I have Gnash installed nowadays, although I have it blocked by default by NoScript
16:25:53 <ais523> and I've never got it to work
16:26:17 <fizzie> Heh. "zeroes of riemann zeta function" => "Input interpretation: solve ζ(s) = 0. Solution over the reals: s = -2n and n ≥ 1 and n ∊ ℤ." But that's not the interesting part!
16:26:26 <ehird> ais523: I am not surprised, because Gnash does not work on anything.
16:26:39 <ehird> You could just block all flash + Adobe's player if you're using the evils anyway.
16:26:46 <ehird> "It is receiving universal praise... ...from all the commenters on Wolfram's blog [wolframalpha.com]. It is actually rather amusing to read through the long list of overwhelmingly positive comments." — /.
16:27:02 <ais523> so I get to shout at websites claiming their Flash isn't portable
16:27:15 <ehird> it's not their fault Gnash doesn't implement all of Flash
16:27:17 <ais523> and I refuse to install Adobe's Flash, not because it's closed-source, but because it's massively buggy and insecure
16:27:19 <ais523> ehird: and yes, I know
16:27:34 <ehird> ais523: and yes, but if you only enable it on things like video sites, it should be fine
16:28:18 <fizzie> Adobe's flash broke on me; all indicators point that the plugin's installed just fine, and it's also working just fine, but all flash content is just a translucent box. Wonder what's up with that.
16:28:33 <ehird> When we launch Wolfram|Alpha this weekend, it will be running Mathematica on about 10,000 processor cores, using gridMathematica-based parallelism. And every single query that comes into the system will be served with webMathematica.
16:28:42 <ehird> 10,000 cores and they still can't handle mathematica
16:28:55 <ais523> Mathematica is fundamentally inefficient, IMO
16:29:10 <ais523> making it useless for serious computation unless you have a Wolfram-style server farm
16:29:11 <ehird> "I want to have Wolfram Alpha’s baby!" — W|A blog
16:29:26 <ehird> "Wow, thanks to Wolfram Alpha I can quit my job, divorce my wife, sell all my possessions, shave my entire body, gain that frontal lobotomy I’ve always wanted, and become one with the computer!"
16:29:40 <ehird> Deewiant: i'm sorry, which reality are you currently residing in?
16:29:41 <ais523> it works very well for things that the Wolfram people thought of
16:29:47 <ais523> which != things that I want to do with it
16:29:51 <ehird> I think you might be trapped in an internet-based pocket of reality distortion field
16:30:16 <fizzie> Also the comments in the justin.tv stream have seemed universally positive, although I've only looked at about ten of them. But the ten have been things like "this is more important than putting a man on the moon" and "you did what is the dream of human mankind".
16:30:29 <Deewiant> ehird: I don't try to use it as an English compiler like you guys mostly apparently have.
16:30:44 <Deewiant> I haven't managed to break it with machine-readable input yet.
16:30:49 <oerjan> fizzie: lots of dripping sarcasm? :D
16:30:49 <ais523> hmm... it gave a pretty good answer for "refractive index of glass"
16:30:57 <ehird> Deewiant: Gee, I wonder why we're giving it mathematical statements as basic English? OH! MAYBE BECAUSE WOLFRAM DID!
16:31:03 <ais523> Deewiant: I've been trying to give it appropriate input
16:31:07 <ais523> rephrasing if necessary
16:31:12 <ais523> even so, I can't get it to work half the time
16:31:15 <ais523> it seems to be very patchy
16:31:36 <Deewiant> ehird: Not all the time, he didn't.
16:31:45 <Deewiant> Besides, I don't think what the marketing says is relevant.
16:31:48 <ehird> <me> average size of human anus <W|A> I'm not sure what to do with your input.
16:31:51 <ehird> That's what she said.
16:31:54 <ais523> for specific things like "fifteenth mersenne prime", it works fine
16:31:57 <ais523> but is clearly special-cased
16:32:09 <Deewiant> I'm very impressed that it works as well as it does.
16:32:10 <ais523> as in, it has an "nth mersenne prime" sort of query
16:32:12 <ehird> "avg. human height" works, that's a start. 5'4" apparently.
16:32:25 <ais523> so it's just the usual wolframming of special-casing everything
16:32:25 <ehird> Along with its conversions
16:32:35 <ehird> It tells me the average human height ... in electromagnetic frequency range
16:32:45 <ehird> VHF (very high frequency) | meter band, apparently.
16:32:54 <ais523> you'd be somewhere between microwave and radio
16:32:58 <ais523> if you were used as a wavelength
16:33:20 <ehird> <me> tallest human <W|A> info on the tallest human ever
16:33:25 <ehird> <me> tallest living human <W|A> LOL WUT
16:33:36 <ehird> I predict the source code is a gigantic hash table
16:33:46 <ais523> ehird: that was my impression too
16:33:50 <oerjan> em, literally LOL WUT?
16:33:53 <ais523> which explains why it's so long
16:34:06 <ehird> ais523: what's so long?
16:34:13 <ais523> the source code to Alpha
16:34:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: The "intelligent" input parsing was very hyped, though. And I still haven't gotten the sum of primes smaller than a constant out of it yet. Admittedly "sum of the first ten primes" worked very well; but why then not "sum of the primes below 10"?
16:34:19 <ais523> it's apparently over 2 million lines of Mathematica
16:34:25 <ais523> <ais523> elite hacker in lolspeak <Alpha> ?
16:34:43 <ais523> just thought it was a fun conversion
16:34:55 <ehird> <me> infinity <W|A> Input: ∞
16:35:29 <ehird> <me> 1/0 <W|A> I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that...
16:35:43 <ais523> the I'm sorry dave is a general overload
16:35:43 <ehird> ais523: it's the load error
16:35:45 <Deewiant> I'm used to hype and have come to ignore it when evaluating things.
16:35:52 <ehird> Deewiant: yes, but
16:35:57 <ehird> he lives on this kind of hype
16:35:58 <ais523> I'm glad to know that it handles "tcp port 8080" correctly
16:36:06 <ais523> which is one query that broke in the demonstration they gave me a while back
16:36:12 <ehird> W|A might work if everyone had their own cluster for it
16:36:13 <ais523> apparently because it wasn't in the database then
16:36:23 <ehird> ais523: I bet that's the only one that works
16:36:38 <ehird> "Oh shit, we missed one -- {"tcp port 8080","..."}"
16:36:39 <fizzie> ais523: It doesn't seem to know anything about ICMP, though; "Did you mean: scamp".
16:36:56 <ais523> <ais523> tcp port 64928 <Alpha> (no known assignments)
16:37:01 <ehird> <me> average human penis length <W|A> ?
16:37:14 <ehird> I can't even think how to phrase that differently
16:37:33 <ais523> clearly Alpha doesn't have porn in its database yet
16:37:39 <ais523> I therefore predict it will be a massive failure
16:37:49 <fizzie> Also "UDP port 22; Typical port assignment: ssh: SSH Remote Login Protocol". I guess it's just reading someone's /etc/services to me.
16:38:07 <ais523> so why didn't it get 64928?
16:38:11 <ehird> <me> oldest porn star <W|A> Did you mean: oldest star; Astronomy: star?
16:38:48 <ais523> <me> udp port 80 <Alpha> http: World Wide Web HTTP
16:38:58 <ais523> someone ought to give Alpha a lesson on the difference between TCP and UDP
16:39:00 <fizzie> ais523: What's 64928 then?
16:39:07 <ais523> fizzie: INTERCAL theft server
16:39:21 <ehird> <me> average size of star <W|A> Did you mean size of star
16:39:31 * ehird asks it size of star to figure out wtf that is
16:39:38 <ehird> "size of star" is "100 brightest stars | sizes"
16:40:03 <oerjan> average size of star is not very well defined
16:40:14 <ehird> But "size of star" being "100 brightest stars | sizes"?
16:40:17 <ehird> That's just wrong.
16:40:17 <Slereah> You could, you know, just do an average
16:40:35 <oerjan> Slereah: no, because you don't know all stars
16:40:43 <ais523> an average of all the ones in the database
16:40:49 <ehird> ais523: click the source information, you get Wolfram as the two primary sources even though they took the data from someone els
16:40:58 <oerjan> and the database will be biased towards larger stars
16:41:04 <ais523> ehird: I didn't realise that...
16:41:11 <oerjan> because they are easier to discover
16:41:58 <ais523> it doesn't like "sum of (udp port)"
16:42:00 <ehird> W|A is approximately as useless as I imagined
16:42:06 <ais523> I think Alpha's problem is that it isn't actually doing computations
16:42:11 <ehird> ais523: why did you make it seem sort of cool when we asked?
16:42:14 <ais523> as in, it isn't combining different parts of itself
16:42:23 <ehird> <W|A> Assuming "wolfram alpha" is a historical event | Use as an internet domain instead
16:42:24 <oerjan> ehird: aren't you glad we aren't close to the singularity yet? :)
16:42:27 <ais523> ehird: because Wolfram fooled me too in the demonstrations, a bit
16:42:29 <ehird> [["wolfram alpha" is a historical event]]
16:42:34 <ehird> AHAHAHAHAHAahadhdfjkdhgjkfdg
16:42:36 <fizzie> ais523: Based on http://isc.sans.org/port.html?port=64928 eevil hackurs are trying to use that server quite often, then.
16:42:51 <ehird> oerjan: wait, why is that a good thing?
16:43:00 <ehird> the singularity, by definition, has to be pretty good at what W|A is trying to do
16:43:30 <ais523> fizzie: yes, they're obviously trying to steal data from your computer
16:43:35 <ais523> that's what a theft server does, by definition
16:43:42 <oerjan> ehird: and the singularity could be pretty bad, therefore it is good that W|A isn't managing it
16:43:51 <fizzie> It won't be so good for the humans who have to live as HEAT MINERS under the singularitic robotic overlords.
16:43:58 <ehird> W|A isn't malicious, just crap.
16:44:03 <ehird> since it's crap, it isn't singularity-level
16:44:28 <ais523> how do you know it isn't malicious?
16:44:36 <ais523> it isn't competent enough to tell if it's malicious or not
16:44:37 <oerjan> ehird: i never said anything about W|A being malicious
16:44:41 <ehird> ais523: it's too stupid to be malicious
16:44:54 <ais523> <ais523> select.intercal.org.uk
16:44:59 <ais523> and Alpha's processing that at the moment
16:45:07 <ais523> it gives varying amounts of output on the same query
16:45:17 * ehird tries 1 2 3 plus 4 5 6
16:45:24 <ehird> let's see if it can do array computation
16:45:31 <ehird> "Assuming multiplication | Use a list instead"
16:45:33 <ais523> the first time it tried, all it did was say that its location was in Edinborough, and which company hosted it
16:45:54 <ais523> "1 2 (3+4) 5 6", let me guess?
16:45:57 <ehird> ais523: you won't believe this—
16:46:18 <ais523> there's a link to the printable text version
16:46:26 <ehird> i'm loading the page
16:46:29 <ehird> i went onto another thing
16:46:49 <fizzie> ehird: You can do "{1,2,3}+{4,5,6}" if you want to get {5,7,9}... that's in Mathematica syntax. But a web-interface for Mathematica isn't all that kewl.
16:47:06 <ais523> fizzie: what would Mathematica return for {1,2,3}*{4,5,6}?
16:47:08 <ehird> ais523: 2 (3 + 4 x 5 x 6)
16:47:26 <ehird> ais523: but if you ask it for the mathematica, it says 1 2 (3 + 4 5 6)
16:47:26 <ais523> ehird: ok, that's some parsing trouble
16:47:34 <ais523> and it's interpreted 1 2 as 1 times 2
16:47:38 <ais523> and simplified it before showing it to you
16:47:43 <fizzie> It also computes 5+7+9=21, mean value 7, vector length = sqrt(155), normalized vector, pie chart, triangle with those sides, cuboid with that size, and corresponding spherical coordinates.
16:47:53 * ehird uses as a list instead
16:47:56 <fizzie> In[3]:= {1,2,3}*{4,5,6}
16:48:08 -!- impomatic has left (?).
16:48:08 <ais523> why didn't it dot-product, I wonder/
16:48:18 <ehird> ais523: if you tell it to interpret "1 2 3 plus 4 5 6" as a list, it parses as {1, 2, 3 + 4 x 5 x 6}
16:48:31 <ais523> "1 2 3 + 4 5 6" didn't give me a choice of interpretation
16:48:43 <fizzie> ais523: {1,2,3}.{4,5,6} does the dot product. Well, it's a dot.
16:48:45 <ehird> it then gives me the total, 126, the mean, 42, the vector length, 123.02, the normalized vector and the spherical coordinates
16:48:59 <ehird> I just want you to do {1+4,2+5,3+6} dammit!
16:49:15 <fizzie> ehird: Well, do it in the Mathematica syntax like I said, then.
16:49:23 <ehird> fizzie: i have mathematica
16:49:23 <fizzie> If you really need that sum, I mean.
16:49:29 <ehird> i don't need W|A to use mathematica
16:50:00 <fizzie> ehird: You can write "{1,2,3} plus {4,5,6}" to Alpha if you insist on using something that doesn't directly plug in to Mathematica.
16:50:27 <ehird> I don't think being able to replace + with plus is a great advantage.
16:50:32 * ehird clicks its music example
16:50:38 <ehird> The page “C E G Bb D F# A - Wolfram|Alpha” has content of MIME type “audio/midi&s=63”. Because you don’t have a plug-in installed for this MIME type, this content can’t be displayed.
16:50:42 <ehird> FFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLL
16:50:45 <ais523> it managed "solve a to the power b equals b to the power a"
16:50:58 <ais523> also, it returns a non-HTML page in response to a query?
16:51:09 <ehird> ais523: i clicked play sound
16:51:12 <ehird> on http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=C+E+G+Bb+D+F%23+A
16:51:15 <ehird> but it should be audio/midi
16:51:19 <ehird> it tacked &s=63 on the end
16:51:42 <ehird> ais523: did they even test it, that's what I'm wondering
16:51:51 <ehird> surely playing sound on every browser would be part of their tests
16:51:56 <ehird> it's not like safari/webkit have a small marketshare
16:52:04 <ais523> would they have had time to test it?
16:52:14 <ais523> I mean, it's two million lines long...
16:52:23 <ais523> and probably coverage for any given query is very low
16:52:25 <ehird> ais523: incidentally, their text-as-images ... I reckon that's freetype rendering
16:52:31 <ehird> I wonder if there are any licensing issues with it?
16:52:34 <ehird> probably not, but I hope so
16:52:44 <ais523> it's probably mathematica OutputForm
16:52:48 <ehird> it'd be amusing if they had to GPL it
16:52:54 <ehird> ais523: i mean the actual font rendering
16:53:02 <ehird> it's freetype's, i.e. what's used on X11
16:53:52 <ehird> [[It couldn't tell me:
16:53:52 <ehird> "Who is Luke Skywalker's father?"
16:53:53 <ehird> You've got more chance of logging into reddit on a comments page than you have of getting a good answer from this engine.]]
16:53:56 <ehird> [[Why should it? Use Google for your dumb fiction questions.]]
16:54:00 <ehird> yeah information about anything that's not 500% real is useless
16:54:14 <ais523> information about fictional things is unlikely to be in the database
16:54:27 <fizzie> "integer solutions of x^3+y^3=z^3" => "Input interpretation: solve | x^3+y^3 = z^3 | over the integers; Result: z = Root[-x^3 - y^3 + #1^3 &, 1] and (x|y|z) ∊ ℤ". The maths it do is very Mathematicay.
16:54:37 <ehird> ais523: I reckon that the sweet spot for Wolfram Alpha is being a souped up Google Calculator
16:54:46 <ehird> if it was marketed as that, everything would have gone swimmingly
16:54:57 <ais523> fizzie: the maths clearly does it via Mathematica
16:55:01 <ais523> as you can tell when it goes wrong
16:55:12 * ehird asks it 700 dollars in roman numerals
16:55:16 <ehird> <W|A> Input interpretation:
16:55:22 <ehird> it doesn't even interpret it!
16:55:39 <ehird> it interpreted it okay
16:55:46 <ehird> convert $700 (US dollars) to Roman numerals
16:56:12 <ais523> ehird: yep, Mathematica fails the same way as Thutu on unexpected input
16:56:18 <ais523> because they work the same way behind the scenes
16:56:28 <ehird> ais523: but that's not what I typed in
16:56:31 <ehird> it parsed it perfectly
16:56:34 <ehird> the exact way it should
16:56:37 <ehird> it just then didn't evaluate it
16:56:55 <ais523> it'll have converted it to a Mathematica expression
16:56:58 <ehird> >Interpreting "MXLCIX" as "mlcit"
16:57:09 <ehird> a stock simple, apparently
16:57:19 <ehird> it's in euros, and I see Paris
16:57:26 <ais523> ehird: "XLC" isn't a valid roman numeral excerpt
16:57:27 <Deewiant> MXLCIX isn't a valid Roman numeral
16:57:33 <ehird> so presumably it thinks MXLCIX is the stock symbol of a french company, awesome
16:57:34 <ais523> try correcting it to "MCXLIX"
16:57:38 <ehird> I just wanted to know how it'd react
16:57:48 <fizzie> The fact that you get all kinds of incidental information is at least nifty, if not useful. "$700 in zloty" gives a good input interpretation ("covert $700 (US dollars) to Polish zlotych"), the result, but also: local currency conversion (in euros), exchange history for the last year with min+max, and value of $700 in random additional currencies.
16:57:51 <ehird> still, MXLCIX→mlcit is ridiculous
16:58:21 <ehird> ais523: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=MCXLIX ← it seems to think that if I'm using roman numerals I care about mayan, babylonian and greek numerals too
16:58:25 <Deewiant> It's just using some kind of basic Hamming distance type measure to do correction
16:58:53 <ehird> "It also couldn't express Wolfram's ego in milliDijkstras" —reddit
16:58:57 <ehird> great minds think alike
16:59:31 <ehird> "miles in beardseconds"
16:59:33 <ehird> 1 miles = 321 868 800 000 beardseconds
16:59:34 <fizzie> I don't mind the "useless very vaguely related stuff" section of the answer; at least that's something novel.
16:59:37 <ehird> Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.
16:59:52 <ais523> why do people keep comparing it to Google/
16:59:58 * ehird asks "average bluntness of knives"
17:00:00 <ehird> ais523: not google
17:00:19 <ehird> google calculator is like Alpha without the database; it just knows lots of units and conversions and such
17:00:28 <ehird> also, it parses way better :-P
17:00:43 <ehird> <W|A> wat is knive
17:00:49 <Deewiant> Simple things are easy to parse.
17:00:57 <oerjan> the smaller the realm of knowledge, the easier to parse
17:01:07 <ehird> sure, but google parses better than W|A regardless
17:01:25 <Deewiant> Google calculator can't handle "$700 in €", it wants "700 $ in €", for instance.
17:01:41 <ehird> Deewiant: google calculator doesn't do symbols
17:01:59 <ehird> and it does words better than W|A
17:01:59 <Deewiant> ehird: So how exactly does it parse better than W|A?
17:02:09 <ais523> Alpha mostly does well at "glagolitic capital letter spidery ha"
17:02:17 <ais523> but its drawing of the letter is wrong
17:03:30 <ais523> Alpha has Alexa information in, it seems
17:03:55 <pikhq> Deewiant: I'm pretty sure it considers "in" an infix operator with precedence and everything.
17:03:57 <ehird> ais523: heh, "glagolitic capital letter spidery ha"'s encodings has Unicode, HTML and then ITALICS MATHEMATICA
17:04:16 <ehird> Only Mathematica is worthy of obliquity.
17:04:38 <Deewiant> pikhq: Really? To me it seems like it just checks whether the input has "in X" at the end and then converts to X if it does
17:04:40 * ais523 visits http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wolframalpha.com%2Finput%2F%3Fi%3Dwolframalpha.com
17:04:52 <ais523> that seems to have stumped it
17:04:54 <Deewiant> "1 in miles + 2 km" -> no results
17:04:55 <ais523> as in, it's stuck loading
17:05:03 <ais523> does it get stuck loading for anyone else?
17:05:15 <ehird> ais523: try reloading
17:05:18 <ehird> it works instantly
17:05:19 <pikhq> Deewiant: Doesn't parse right. ;)
17:05:25 <ais523> what did that query return?
17:05:31 <fizzie> Worked for me too. Although I don't quite get what's the HTML element hierarchy is useful for.
17:05:33 <ehird> ais523: a bunch of info about the URL and domain
17:05:40 <ehird> and, uh, a graph of the html hierarchy
17:05:43 <ehird> where you can't see the tags
17:05:43 <Deewiant> pikhq: "in" isn't much of an operator if you can only use it at the end of the input :-P
17:05:49 <ehird> so it's just a pretty drawing
17:05:59 <ehird> ais523: apparently, W|A is the 4069th site on Alexa. Hype, I suppose.
17:06:08 <ehird> so close to 4096, too
17:06:09 <fizzie> 710000 daily page views.
17:06:12 <ehird> that's a lovely round number
17:06:13 * ais523 adds one more layer of recursion
17:06:34 <ais523> unfortunately, it seems to use AJAX for returning the actual results
17:06:47 <ehird> ais523: it loads a new page and then uses ajax
17:06:53 <ehird> ais523: OTOH, I've seen that done before
17:07:01 <ehird> so presumably it's a webMathematica thing
17:07:06 <ais523> so even if I could somehow make a quine, it wouldn't send Alpha into an infinite loop
17:07:08 <Deewiant> Not really pointless, that lets it give you partial results
17:07:16 <ehird> Deewiant: but it doesn't
17:07:23 <ehird> all the results come more or less at once
17:07:39 <ehird> unless you only get the input then it takes 5 hours to load the results
17:07:42 <Deewiant> That just means they went to the same cluster node or w/e
17:08:02 <fizzie> What? "height of 10", interpreted as "height | 10" gives me two results. Distribution of human heights (8962 people, NHANES 2006 study), and one panel with header "Test information:" and contents "test panels | physical examination". I don't really know what that means.
17:08:35 <ehird> I think that W|A may make more sense on drugs.
17:09:05 <ehird> oerjan: I'm going to write a fast /// interp in C
17:09:16 <Deewiant> And on a refresh, I get nothing. Hmph.
17:09:18 <ehird> do you think anyone will care if I don't support \0 in programs? :-P
17:09:38 <ais523> and Deewiant would iff you claimed standards compliance
17:09:46 <ehird> ais523: that's a plus. will anyone else? also, you just pinged him, he'll come here in a few seconds going "what?"
17:09:52 <ehird> (that was regarding anmaster)
17:10:19 <fizzie> I tried to ask for the heights of 10 tallest mountains, in preparation to trying to get the average of that list. I mean, it's supposed to be able to compute things from that data. (Also the ten tallest mountains table showed only 5, and when I clicked on "more" the units went from metres to feet.)
17:10:22 <ais523> how many seconds exactly was that/
17:10:31 <ais523> AnMaster: <ehird> ais523: that's a plus. will anyone else? also, you just pinged him, he'll come here in a few seconds going "what?"
17:10:46 <AnMaster> what is it that you need to handle \0 in
17:11:11 <AnMaster> I don't know if it is legal in slashes.
17:11:13 <ais523> slashes + IRC = I need to concentrate more
17:11:26 <ehird> \0s in programs are legal in ///, but I don't think anyone uses them
17:11:30 <ehird> since you have to put a literal \0 in a file
17:11:35 <ehird> I might just use length-tracking strings anyway
17:11:43 <ehird> btw, mmap doesn't load the whole file usually, does it?
17:11:47 <AnMaster> ehird, you probably should handle it, but I'm not really interested in slashes.
17:11:48 <Deewiant> Mycology contains a literal \0; surely you'd want to run your slashes interp on it
17:11:50 <ehird> you have to read manually for that, right?
17:12:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, wait. A befunge interpreter in slashes?
17:12:22 <ehird> AnMaster: you'd have to encode it anyway
17:12:47 <AnMaster> ehird, it loads the file as it is required usually. Implementation defined.
17:12:48 <fizzie> Hm, W|A: "Interpreting 'befunge' as 'befang'". Getting "total number of speakers: 3000 people" for Befunge confused me for a bit.
17:13:16 <Deewiant> brainfuck: Did you mean: brainerd
17:13:22 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Hm, W|A: "Interpreting 'befunge' as 'befang'". Getting "total number of speakers: 3000 people" for Befunge confused me for a bit. <-- where was that from.
17:13:30 <ehird> AnMaster: wolfram alpha
17:13:37 <Deewiant> W|A, that is to say, WolframAlpha.
17:13:42 <ehird> AnMaster: needs JS
17:13:51 <ehird> Deewiant: today at 00:00 GMT.
17:13:51 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I can add a temp exception
17:13:58 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, it's cra
17:14:14 <ehird> Deewiant: eh, dunno; we didn't talk about it yesterday
17:14:17 <fizzie> Deewiant: 2009-05-15 is what it itself says.
17:14:19 <ehird> AnMaster: pretty much
17:14:22 <ehird> AnMaster: it's fairly useless
17:14:27 <Deewiant> AnMaster: I don't think it's that crap.
17:14:33 <ehird> Deewiant's bonkers, ignore him
17:14:35 <Deewiant> It's a web-interface to Mathematica, which in itself is very cool.
17:14:50 <fizzie> Deewiant: There already was a web-interface to Mathematica, wasn't there? Not open, though.
17:14:51 <ais523> not really, a web-interface to Malbolge would almost be more useful
17:14:53 <ehird> it's just an online REPL...
17:14:55 <AnMaster> How many people live in Sweden? -> Result: 9.12 million people (2007 estimate)
17:15:03 <Deewiant> ehird: Cool in the sense that you don't have to pay $1000 to get at it.
17:15:04 <AnMaster> that one seems to work at least.
17:15:14 <ehird> Deewiant: strange, I didn't have to do that either
17:15:29 <Deewiant> fizzie: The openness is the good bit.
17:15:30 <ehird> I had to break the law, but that's better than breaking your head against a wall when your queries keep timing out
17:15:36 <fizzie> Admittedly a *free* online Mathematica is nice. But it is a bit limited as to how much you can play with the results.
17:15:48 <AnMaster> it says it has exceeded the test load
17:15:48 <ehird> you can't use it like real mathematica at all
17:15:52 <ehird> AnMaster: so reload.
17:15:59 <ehird> it's the TOO MANY PEOPLE ASKING ME THINKS AAAAAAA page
17:16:00 <Deewiant> Certainly, but most of my uses of Mathematica /are/ just one-liners every now and then.
17:16:07 <ehird> even though they have 10,000 cores
17:16:13 <ehird> they just can't handle the internets
17:16:14 <Deewiant> If I had a Mathematica-bot on IRC I wouldn't use the real program at all, probably.
17:16:28 <ehird> Deewiant: but the pretty output and sounds!
17:16:39 <ehird> AnMaster: i, don't know? it's not, for me
17:16:45 <ehird> upgrade, your browser, or, computer
17:16:50 <Deewiant> ehird: I rarely graph and I don't think I've ever got sounds out of it. :-P
17:17:04 <ehird> Deewiant: you can listen to the reimann zeta function!
17:17:14 <fizzie> What's about the pretty output? Plot[x^2,{x,0,10}] works just fine in W|A.
17:17:20 <ehird> fizzie: he said IRC bot
17:17:22 <Deewiant> fizzie: That was about the IRC bot.
17:18:26 <ehird> http://www.cybercom.net/~seishino/Front.jpg ← this is what silent computers looked like in 2003
17:18:40 <fizzie> Deewiant: data: URIs so you can "open in your browser". (Packing all the pretty graphics in <512 base-64 encoded characters is left as an exercise.)
17:18:46 <ehird> "The speed holes on the side make the computer go faster."
17:18:58 <ehird> http://www.cybercom.net/~seishino/Insides.jpg
17:19:10 <ehird> 97 divided by x is 22 plus x?
17:19:30 <Deewiant> It's their first release and it's been at least on /. and all over IRC.
17:19:31 <ehird> But yeah, it can solve that.
17:19:34 <AnMaster> ehird, "solve for x" was what I intended
17:19:43 <AnMaster> (%i3) solve([97 / x = 22 + x], [x]);
17:19:43 <AnMaster> (%o3) [x=-sqrt(218)-11,x=sqrt(218)-11]
17:19:46 <ehird> Alternate form: False
17:19:49 <ehird> ais523: that's a new error
17:20:04 <ais523> ehird: is that an error?
17:20:12 <ehird> ais523: I think so...
17:20:17 <ais523> x = x + 1 is equivalent to false
17:20:28 <ehird> ais523: I was saying "solve for x".
17:20:32 <fizzie> Deewiant was the faster.
17:20:41 <ehird> Whereby the output would be {}
17:20:46 <ehird> but that's not False
17:20:59 <AnMaster> ehird, maxima returns an empty list for "no solutions"
17:21:04 <ehird> x/y = x+y for x = -4, y = 2.
17:21:16 <ehird> Also y = 1/2 (-x-sqrt(x+4) sqrt(x)), -x-sqrt(x+4) sqrt(x)!=0
17:21:16 <fizzie> ehird: You can write "solve x=x+1" and you get "Result: (no solutions exist)".
17:21:22 <ehird> And y = 1/2 (sqrt(x) sqrt(x+4)-x), sqrt(x) sqrt(x+4)-x!=0
17:21:58 <AnMaster> why can't you copy paste from alpha
17:22:14 <ehird> AnMaster: text in images.
17:22:21 <ehird> x/(y*x) = x+(y^2)/3 gives some funcomplex results.
17:22:21 <fizzie> Clicking on the image gives a "copyable plaintext" thing.
17:22:26 <ehird> y = ((1+i sqrt(3)) x)/(2^(2/3) (sqrt(4 x^3+9)+3)^(1/3))-((1-i sqrt(3)) (sqrt(4 x^3+9)+3)^(1/3))/(2 2^(1/3))
17:22:57 <ehird> ais523: it's quite fun for solving things, it seems
17:23:02 <ehird> although that's not very computational-knowledgy
17:23:10 <AnMaster> one way to handle the load would be caching results. Since it is likely that many people will all try the same shortly after each other. At least it seems so from reading this channel :P
17:23:18 <ais523> ehird: no, that's just refl into mathematica
17:23:31 <ehird> ais523: well, yes, but a nicer syntax.
17:23:33 <ais523> AnMaster: it turns out that the links they had for communicating between servers didn't scale properly
17:23:41 <ais523> and they only found out a few hours before release
17:23:42 <ehird> more mathematical.
17:24:06 <ais523> probably something to do with the protocol or the routing
17:24:08 <ehird> they're probably using wifi.
17:24:14 <ehird> it'd be a very wolfram thing to do
17:24:48 <AnMaster> why does it use pictures even for stuff like "i is the imaginary unit" or such
17:24:52 <fizzie> Haha. If you do something like "integrate x^2+x+1", the indefinite integral result has a "show steps" button, which will give a step-by-step solution with comments and everything.
17:24:59 <fizzie> Many a high-school student will love that thing. :p
17:25:08 <ehird> it seems that you can only solve for one variable
17:25:12 <ehird> AnMaster: because it sux
17:25:17 <ais523> wow, "derivative of zeta function" gives a really bad result in Alpha compared to "derivative of gamma function"
17:25:42 * ehird solve x/y = z, z = x*2
17:25:54 <ehird> y = 1/2 and z = 2 x and x!=0
17:26:01 <Deewiant> fizzie: That works? I tried it earlier and it always said "no more information" or whatever
17:26:01 <ehird> also x = 0 and z = 0 and y!=0, but that's unfun
17:26:15 <fizzie> Deewiant: Well, it worked for that particular example, anyway.
17:26:51 <Deewiant> Doesn't work for me; "No more results available."
17:27:04 <pikhq> 1 2/y=z2x*=x0=!&& , you mean?
17:27:33 * ehird solve x+y=infinity, x!=infinity, y!=infinity
17:27:35 <fizzie> Deewiant: I get: http://pastebin.com/m245f8c18
17:27:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: (That's the copyable plaintext version.)
17:27:48 <ehird> Result: (no solutions exist)
17:28:06 <ais523> anyone tried an SQL injection in there, btw?
17:28:23 <AnMaster> Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.
17:28:26 <ais523> obviously, it wouldn't work because it isn't even going directly into a database being escaped
17:28:29 <ehird> ais523: they'll use mathematica databse, clearly
17:28:31 <ehird> AnMaster: try aleph_0
17:28:35 <ais523> AnMaster: Mathematica doesn't know about different sorts of infinity
17:28:45 <ehird> it has infinity and complex infinity
17:28:47 <AnMaster> ehird " * Did you mean:aleppo"
17:28:53 <ehird> <me> solve x+y < y, x*y < x, x**y = 479*x <W|A> x = -479^(1/(n-1)) and y = n and n>=2 and (n-1)/2 element Z
17:29:15 <fizzie> ais523: Entering "'; DROP TABLE AllKnowledgeInTheWorld; --" gives me the expected "?" reply, but also: "Related inputs to try: Chemistry: All".
17:29:19 <AnMaster> ehird, tried that, returns Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.
17:29:32 <ehird> AnMaster: eh, try stuffs. :P
17:29:59 <ais523> one thing that annoys me is how the loading bars are not actually loading bars
17:30:00 <ehird> ais523: is there a way to get it to give some concrete solutions?
17:30:03 <ais523> just animations to look pretty
17:30:04 <ehird> instead of a list of constraints
17:30:04 <AnMaster> "solve x+y < y, x*y < x, x**y = 479*x <W|A> x = -479^(1/(n-1))" works. but not the "and ...." bit.
17:30:07 <ehird> and really? EURGH!
17:30:13 <AnMaster> solve | {x+y<y,x y<x,x^y = 479 x<BitOr[A,W]>x = -479^(1/(-1+n))}
17:30:13 <ehird> so it has the data while you wait?
17:30:22 <ehird> AnMaster: ... <W|A> is Wolfram Alpha.
17:30:27 <ehird> my query was: solve x+y < y, x*y < x, x**y = 479*x
17:30:41 <pikhq> One thing that annoys me about Wolfram... Mathematica? How dare it not be a Lisp?
17:30:51 <AnMaster> ehird, thought it was some math stuff I didn't know :P
17:30:58 <ais523> pikhq: it's Thutu with a massive standard library and a slightly less powerful regex syntax
17:31:02 <pikhq> I mean, hell. Look at Maxima. Mmm, Common Lisp.
17:31:20 <pikhq> And it's libre & gratis. Tasty.
17:31:28 <AnMaster> pikhq, though it can't do all the stuff. Like play sounds.
17:31:31 <ehird> ais523: how can you get a list of results instead of constraints? do you know
17:31:40 <pikhq> ... Who needs it to play sounds?
17:31:53 <pikhq> And I'm pretty sure it can; I thought you could stick Lisp code into its REPL.
17:32:09 -!- inurinternet has joined.
17:32:19 <ehird> ais523: do you not know?
17:32:30 <ais523> although substituting a value would be one method
17:32:37 <ais523> as in, by hand in the query
17:32:45 <ehird> i just want it to give me values, since I don't know them ;-)
17:33:12 <pikhq> LMAO... A Usenet copying group is suing the Dutch RIAA equivalent.
17:33:45 <pikhq> They claim that their activities are perfectly legal, and something like... The Dutch RIAA is slandering them?
17:34:03 <ehird> ais523: ah, it can't figureout any solutions it seems
17:34:12 <ehird> so we get the silent treatment but it'll give us the constraints needed
17:34:21 <ehird> probably the numbers don't exist
17:34:53 <ehird> In[5]:= Reduce[{x + y < y, x y < x, x^y == 479 x}, {x, y}, Reals]
17:34:53 <ehird> Out[5]= 1/2 (-1 + C[1]) \[Element] Integers && C[1] >= 2 &&
17:34:54 <ehird> x == -479^((1/(-1 + C[1]))) && y == C[1]
17:35:11 <ehird> no, that's just the W|A output
17:35:12 <fizzie> Alpha's output is prettier, though.
17:36:26 <fizzie> But you do have an infinite number of solutions there. I mean, it's just "x = f(n), y = n, n >= 2, (n-1)/2 is integer", you can substitute n=3, n=5, .. anything there.
17:36:32 <AnMaster> integrate (dx+2)/dy = 4*x + 2*x/3
17:36:44 <fizzie> I'm not sure how to get W|A or Mathematica to do it easily without any extra manual typing, though.
17:36:50 <ehird> fizzie: Oh. Bit boring.
17:36:58 <ehird> I thought my challenge was sufficiently... challenging.
17:37:06 <ehird> <me> solve x+y = 478*x, y^x = 7777+x*(x*y)
17:37:09 <ehird> <W|A> x ~~ 1.40123597714166989438479711 and y = 477 x
17:37:19 <ehird> I deem x "ehird's number".
17:37:31 <ehird> Why? It looks irrational.
17:37:41 <ehird> (Note: it's probably not irrational)
17:37:50 <ehird> (I don't want to think about it)
17:38:00 <ais523> but it's clear mathematica tried to solve it numerically
17:38:02 <ehird> I know what a surd is!
17:38:18 <ehird> An unresolved mathematical expression of an nth root, or an irrational number that can be expressed as such a root of a rational number
17:38:29 <ais523> let's see... x+y=478*x simplifies to y=477*x
17:38:51 <ehird> right, W|A solved that
17:38:55 <ehird> 17:37 ehird: <W|A> x ~~ 1.40123597714166989438479711 and y = 477 x
17:38:56 <ais523> so we're trying to solve (477*x)^x = 7777+477*x^3
17:39:15 <ais523> actually, the ^x there is nasty
17:39:20 <ais523> so it may quite possibly be irrational
17:40:51 <ehird> ais523: it's a pretty number, because seeing "771" and "711", your brain thinks it's repeating
17:40:53 <ehird> until you actually look
17:41:07 <ais523> mine didn't assume it was repeating
17:41:18 <AnMaster> ehird: <me> What is the VAT in UK? <W|A> Interpretation: is | Vatican City | in United Kingdom Result: no
17:41:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Hahahahaa
17:41:26 * oerjan didn't notice the 711 until you mentioned it
17:41:40 <ais523> that is really quite a misinterpretation
17:41:59 <AnMaster> anyone know how much the VAT is?
17:42:21 <fizzie> Also "VAT of UK" is interpreted as "Vatican City | United Kingdom" and then it starts to compare those two things.
17:42:26 <ehird> it was changed recently
17:42:40 <ehird> oerjan: he wants to know its value
17:42:51 <oerjan> and i suggested a better search term
17:42:52 <ehird> AnMaster: it used to be 17.5% and will be following 31 dec 09
17:42:55 <AnMaster> ehird, right. Same for all type of products?
17:43:33 <AnMaster> easier than Sweden. IIRC our "moms" (same concept as your VAT) varies between different types of products
17:44:04 <ais523> haha: <ais523> airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow
17:44:06 <pikhq> VAT? Vallue-added tax?
17:44:07 <ehird> makes me think plural-mom-mother
17:44:09 <ais523> gave african or european
17:44:12 <oerjan> norway is complicated too. unless they changed it.
17:44:12 <ehird> pikhq: valllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllue
17:44:16 <ehird> ais523: well they got taht one
17:44:24 <ais523> the african gives insufficient data
17:44:31 <AnMaster> wikipedia says it means mervärdesskatt btw
17:44:31 <ehird> 17:44 ais523: the african gives insufficient data
17:44:32 <pikhq> AnMaster: ... You guys have a nation-wide sales tax?
17:44:34 <ais523> for the european, Alpha says 25 mph
17:44:41 <ehird> pikhq: ... so does the UK.
17:44:44 <ais523> but Google says 24 mph
17:44:47 <ais523> I wonder which is right?
17:44:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, what would the alternative be...
17:45:03 <ehird> AnMaster: TAXLESS AMERICAN FREEDOM
17:45:08 <pikhq> Oh, right. Small countries with a government that is more than just nominally very powerful.
17:45:12 <AnMaster> "In Sweden, VAT is split into three levels: 25% for most goods and services including restaurants bills, 12% for foods (incl. bring home from restaurants) and hotel stays (but breakfast at 25%) and 6% for printed matter, cultural services, and transport of private persons. Some services are not taxable for example education of children and adults if public utility, and health and dental care, but educ
17:45:13 <AnMaster> ation is taxable at 25% in case of courses for adults at a private school. Dance events (for the guests) have 25%, concerts and stage shows have 6%, and some types of cultural events have 0%."
17:45:13 <ehird> ais523: Assuming estimated average cruising airspeed of an unladen African swallow | Use estimated average cruising airspeed of an unladen European swallow instead
17:45:15 <ehird> there is unfortunately insufficient data to estimate the velocity of an African swallow (even if you specified which of the 47 species of swallow found in Africa you meant)
17:45:16 <ais523> <Alpha> (asked of a general swallow (but not answered) in Monty Python's Holy Grail)
17:45:16 <ehird> (asked of a general swallow (but not answered) in Monty Python's Holy Grail.)
17:45:26 <ehird> 17:45 pikhq: Oh, right. Small countries with a government that is more than just nominally very powerful.
17:45:29 <ehird> pikhq: dude, you're an american
17:45:35 <ehird> STFU about government inferference
17:45:57 <ais523> in the US, the government interferes with different things to what it interferes with in Europe
17:45:57 <fizzie> I'm not getting Alpha to dig out tax rates. If I just write "tax", for me it says "Input interpretation: Helsinki, Uusimaa | total sales tax rate" and "(data not available)", but I can't specify the location anyhow.
17:46:01 <pikhq> ehird: I'm saying that their countries have governments designed that way, while ours is only nominally *not* that way. ;)
17:46:14 <AnMaster> "What is the air speed of an unladen African swallow?"
17:46:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: The Finnish VAT (here "alv", for "arvonlisävero") is at least as complicated, I think.
17:46:16 <ais523> fizzie: do you live in Helsinki or Uusimaa?
17:46:22 <ehird> AnMaster: welcome to 3 seconds ago
17:46:24 <ais523> AnMaster: it's clearly been special-cased
17:46:35 <ehird> 17:46 ais523: fizzie: do you live in Helsinki or Uusimaa?
17:46:39 <ehird> he's at the helsinki university isn't he?
17:46:39 <fizzie> ais523: Well, next to Helsinki. And Uusimaa is a larger regional grouping, in which I do live.
17:46:43 <ehird> renaming to WAVE UNIVERSITY or something
17:46:51 <fizzie> ehird: The Helsinki University of Technology is not actually in Helsinki. :p
17:46:52 <ais523> ehird: I don't know which university fizzie is at off by heart
17:46:57 <ehird> 17:46 fizzie: ehird: The Helsinki University of Technology is not actually in Helsinki. :p
17:47:06 <pikhq> Here, each state sets their own sales taxes, and those tend to be reduced for basic necessities, such as groceries...
17:47:10 <ehird> fizzie: how does tkk.fi work into this?
17:47:24 <pikhq> And the federal government adds an additional tax on tobacco, alcohol, and gasoline.
17:47:31 <ehird> pikhq: I've always thought the federal/state system was silly
17:47:45 <oerjan> ehird: /// in C seems like the obvious thing now
17:47:48 <ais523> hmm, its results for "147.188.147.123" were decent
17:48:00 <fizzie> ehird: The Finnish name is "Teknillinen korkeakoulu", which is pretty much just "university of technology"; this is the main one, so it doesn't need to bother with the locational specifiers. The lesser ones elsewhere in Finland have the place in the Finnish names too.
17:48:03 <ehird> oerjan: yep... it'll require some allocation trickery, but it should work nice
17:48:05 <ais523> that's the IP of the proxy at the University I used for ages
17:48:05 <pikhq> ehird: I think it would be less silly if the federal government only had the powers granted to it by the constitution.
17:48:07 <ehird> oerjan: why obvious though?
17:48:11 * ais523 tries their current IP
17:48:15 <ehird> pikhq: it does, platonically
17:48:28 <ehird> but enforcement sort of damages that
17:48:31 <oerjan> because it's fast to manipulate mutable arrays directly in C
17:48:33 <AnMaster> <me> Monty Python <WA> Interpretation: Monty Python Live at the Hollywood Bowl (movie)
17:48:34 <pikhq> Of course, then, the US would be more akin to the EU...
17:48:38 <ehird> oerjan: true enough
17:48:46 <fizzie> ehird: Anyway, TKK used to be in Helsinki, but the campus was moved to Espoo (Helsinki's neighbour city, and TKK is right there next to the border anyway) in 1955.
17:48:56 <ehird> fizzie: did they put it on wheels and move it across
17:49:24 <ehird> oerjan: it also lets you do sharing tricks
17:49:29 <ais523> ehird: there was a series on Channel 5 about building movers
17:49:32 <ais523> it was quite interesting
17:49:37 <ehird> oerjan: like make a new string_t, -= a bit from the length, then += data
17:49:41 <ais523> although a rather specific thing to have a TV series about
17:49:50 <ehird> ais523: Channel 5? Old, then.
17:49:59 <ais523> it seems lots of special equipment is needed to move buildings
17:50:08 <AnMaster> WA didn't know what "Ackermann function" was. But when typoed as "Ackerman function" it gave a strange result
17:50:08 <ais523> they might have renamed to five by then
17:50:08 <ehird> ais523: I mean, it's called five now
17:50:13 <ais523> but I still know them by their old name
17:50:20 <AnMaster> "Computability Additional functionality for this topic is under development...
17:50:28 <pikhq> I remember seeing that a few years ago on Discovery. Was a while back, though, when they'd show things that have something to do with reality other than blowing things up.
17:50:37 <ehird> AnMaster: try ackermann(a,b)
17:50:46 <ehird> pikhq: don't diss blowing things up
17:50:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I wanted general information about it, it's definition
17:50:55 <pikhq> ehird: It's all they air!
17:51:12 <ehird> pikhq: yes, and they have a place; they just need to rename to Explosions Channel
17:51:22 <Slereah> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Solve+the+halting+problem
17:51:25 <pikhq> ehird: I could get behind that.
17:51:27 <Slereah> This machine does not work
17:51:27 <AnMaster> ehird, that ackermann(1,2) -> Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.
17:51:49 <Slereah> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=itty+bitty+baby%2C+itty+bitty+boat
17:51:52 <fizzie> ehird: They built a new one. There's all kinds of related trivia, like they started building it in 1950 mainly because the place was used to host the participants of the 1952 Summer Olympics, presumably so they could get some sort of (financial or otherwise) help in the construction.
17:51:54 <ehird> AnMaster: A( works
17:51:55 <ais523> AnMaster: it doesn't seem to konw of the ackermann function
17:52:01 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=A%28G64%2CG64%29
17:52:01 <Slereah> Talk about a knowledge engine
17:52:05 <ais523> ehird: with the correct funtion?
17:52:05 <ehird> I'm not sure those are the right functions
17:52:16 <ehird> maybe it thinks G=gravity
17:52:31 <Slereah> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=butt
17:52:37 <Slereah> What the fuck is wrong with this
17:52:40 <ais523> ehird: it's interpreting G as an unknown
17:52:41 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: A( works <-- no
17:52:43 <ais523> and A as an unknown function
17:52:51 <ais523> and just returning a general answer, assuming G64 = G^64
17:53:11 <ehird> how do you get a (FILE *)'s fd?
17:53:15 <oerjan> ehird: i think it should be possible to just scan one array for matches, annotating it somehow, and then allocating the next array afterwards, at the correct length, then fill it and free the old one.
17:53:26 <AnMaster> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=google
17:53:32 <AnMaster> what the hell is "Daily returns versus S&P 500:"
17:53:38 <AnMaster> that graph, what is it supposed to me
17:53:56 <fizzie> ehird: fileno(stream).
17:54:19 <ehird> AnMaster: economics stuff.
17:54:31 <ehird> AnMaster: it's giving you stock symbol info
17:54:44 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but that graph seemed so confusing
17:54:50 <fizzie> Not sure how conformant that is; obviously not ISO C, but it could be POSIX.
17:54:53 <ehird> it's a useless graph :-P
17:55:28 <ehird> an integer of some sor
17:55:31 <ehird> for file offsets it seems
17:55:48 <AnMaster> <me> Four seasons <WA> 3.154x10^7 seconds
17:55:52 <ais523> <ais523> Jimmy Wales <Alpha> date of birth | 8 August 1966 (age: 42 years)
17:55:57 <ais523> that'll be controversial
17:56:01 <AnMaster> I was looking for the famous work of Vivaldi
17:56:40 <ais523> <Wikipedia> Jimmy Donal "Jimbo" Wales (born August 7, 1966[2])
17:57:11 <ais523> and Wikpedia's source for that is Encyclopedia Britannica, and its sources
17:57:34 <ehird> ais523: what's controversial about it
17:57:42 <AnMaster> <me> Mathematica <WA> Assuming "mathematica" is a quantityUse as a historical event or an internet domain instead Interpretation: Wolfram Mathematica Result: Mathematica is an all-in-one computation and visualization system, development environment, and deployment engine. [...]
17:57:45 <ais523> there was a huge row about it
17:57:56 <ais523> Jimmy kept editing all references to it out of the Wikipedia article
17:57:59 <ais523> claiming no reliable soruces
17:58:10 <AnMaster> for historical event: "Mathematica 1.0 Released"
17:58:11 <ais523> and of course, people retaliated by finding lots of sources
17:58:19 <ehird> ais523: oh, more of the "jimbo is a pretty crap wikier who serves his own interests and has a shady past" stuff :p
17:58:27 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:58:28 <ais523> it's interesting to see that Wikipedia and Alpha came to different values, though
17:58:35 <ais523> Britannica agreed with Wikipedia on that, though
17:58:38 <fizzie> Ooh, I got a different error. "Sorry, Wolfram /Alpha/ is temporarily unavailable. Please try again. Error: DataPacletFilter: Unable to get Connection Too many connections".
17:58:46 <ais523> (I was wondering if it had been vandalised to show something different from the source...)
17:58:59 <AnMaster> <ais523> it's interesting to see that Wikipedia and Alpha came to different values, though <-- what do you mean
17:59:13 <ehird> ais523: what's the bast way to read from a (FILE *) the natural block size, as much as possible?
17:59:32 <ehird> I'm just trying to stream a file into a buffer as properly as possible
17:59:40 <ehird> ais523: that isn't the natural block size!
17:59:46 <ehird> you're meant to use fread, I'm sure
17:59:56 <ehird> ais523: well, that's inefficient on memory
17:59:57 <ais523> getc turns into a call to get a natural-sized buffer
18:00:02 <ais523> followed by accessing into the buffer
18:00:07 <ais523> in most sane implementations
18:00:08 <ehird> instead of writing a word-sized block at a time
18:00:17 <ehird> I could do fread(buf, sizeof(long), ...)
18:00:30 <ais523> fread has function call overhead
18:00:31 <AnMaster> ais523, only true for buffered files.
18:00:36 <ais523> also, you probably want fgetc_unlocked
18:00:44 <ehird> ais523: I don't mind overhead
18:00:50 <ais523> but you can set the buffering explicitly if you think your compiler might be standards-incompliant
18:00:54 <ehird> This doesn't need to be especially fast - the files are tiny - I'd just like to get it correct
18:00:59 <AnMaster> ais523, in fact, only true for fully buffered files
18:01:08 <ais523> AnMaster: which it will be, unless it's stdio from tty
18:01:21 <ais523> and if it /is/ stdio from tty, fully-buffering is almost certainly incorrect
18:01:49 <AnMaster> ais523, fully buffered stdout to tty can make sense.
18:01:49 <ehird> fread(&buf, sizeof(long), ??what do I want for nitems??, file)
18:01:54 <fizzie> The pass-to-mathematica doesn't seem to be completely direct. If I write "f[x_] := x+1; f[42]" it interprets as "f(x_) = x+1; f(42)" and results "f(42) ~~ f(42.)..." with a unworky "more digits" option. I'm not quite sure how to define + evaluate a function there.
18:02:26 <ais523> AnMaster: std/out/, yes
18:02:51 <AnMaster> ais523, you said stdio, not stdin
18:02:56 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, but it was a thinko
18:03:04 <ais523> and I corrected it a couple of lines down
18:03:12 <Slereah> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=rule+34
18:03:29 <AnMaster> (according to Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)
18:03:50 <ehird> 18:01 ehird: fread(&buf, sizeof(long), ??what do I want for nitems??, file)
18:04:14 <Deewiant> ehird: ??The size of your buffer??
18:04:23 <ehird> Deewiant: I'm wondering how big I should make it :-P
18:04:56 <ehird> Yeah, that's not too helpful :-P
18:04:57 <Deewiant> But if you can't be bothered to find it out... 1024 is always good :-P
18:05:06 <ehird> Deewiant: That's 1024 bytes
18:05:09 <Deewiant> It's what I'd do if I actually cared
18:05:18 <ehird> So that's 1024 words
18:05:21 <Deewiant> ehird: Nah, 1024 is good no matter the units
18:05:28 <fizzie> 4096 is also a good number; it's like four times better than 1024.
18:05:29 <AnMaster> <me> What is the airspeed of an unladen European swallow? <WA> Interpretation: estimated average cruising airspeed of an unladen European swallow 950 km/day (kilometers per day)
18:05:39 <ehird> fizzie: 4096 bytes is bigger than most /// programs
18:05:44 <ehird> maybe 1024 / sizeof(long)
18:05:55 <Deewiant> What if it doesn't divide evenly
18:06:01 <ehird> Deewiant: who cares?
18:06:02 <ais523> AnMaster: what if you remove the qualifier "unladen"
18:06:23 <AnMaster> ais523, "too much load" atm...
18:06:35 <fizzie> ais523: It still interprets it as if there were "unladen" there.
18:06:38 <ais523> just keep trying, generating yet more load when it's already loaded is funny
18:06:58 <fizzie> It's also completely unable to find the same for other species of birds. :/
18:07:26 <ais523> special-cased, unfortunately
18:07:31 <ehird> The function ferror() tests the error indicator for the stream pointed to
18:07:32 <ehird> by stream, returning non-zero if it is set. The error indicator can only
18:07:33 <ehird> be reset by the clearerr() function.
18:07:35 <ehird> ↑ how am I meant to print out the error?
18:07:41 <ehird> printing the error from ferror?
18:07:46 <AnMaster> ais523, it adds the qualifier in the interpretation it seems.
18:08:01 <ais523> ehird: when something goes wrong reading a file, the reading function returns an error value and sets errno
18:08:10 <ais523> it also sets either the error or eof indicator
18:08:21 <ais523> so you can find out whether it went wrong due to error or eof, then check errno if it was an error
18:08:25 <Deewiant> ais523: man fread says nothing about errno
18:08:28 <ais523> and use strerror or perror to get an error message
18:08:32 <ais523> Deewiant: it does set errno, though
18:08:36 <fizzie> Hm "wolf running speed" suggests "wolf speed", interpreted as "Wolf (movie) | Speed 2: Cruise Control (movie)" and then it does a movie comparison.
18:08:49 <Deewiant> ais523: Is that portable, then?
18:08:50 <fizzie> There's also a helpful "Assuming Wolf | Use Lobo, El instead" link.
18:09:06 <Deewiant> I'd expect at least man 3p fread to say something about it
18:09:20 <Deewiant> I was looking at ferror's manpage by accident
18:09:20 <AnMaster> <ais523> so you can find out whether it went wrong due to error or eof, then check errno if it was an error <-- err. Sure ferror() won't modify errno?
18:09:29 <ehird> it's specified not to
18:09:35 <ais523> AnMaster: I'm pretty sure it's one of the few that doesn't
18:09:35 <ehird> along with all functions on that page
18:09:36 <Slereah> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=nigger
18:09:42 <ehird> These functions should not fail and do not set the external variable
18:09:45 <Slereah> I like how nigger is connected to raccoon
18:09:55 <ais523> although you might want to cache errno before anyway, just in case it stupidly calls malloc or something
18:09:58 <ehird> if I'm writing with nulls
18:10:07 <ehird> I have to round the allocation size to the nearest power of two
18:10:10 <ehird> what's the trick to do that again?
18:10:31 <ehird> not nearest power of two
18:10:32 <ais523> nearest, or larger, or smaller/
18:10:34 <ehird> nearest multiple of sizeof(long)
18:10:44 <ehird> nearest multiple of sizeof(long) rounding upwards
18:10:59 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the shortest way to round up to a multiple of some constant
18:11:03 <ais523> oh, (x+(sizeof(long))-1) & ~(sizeof(long)-1)
18:11:14 <ais523> wait, sizeof(long) might not be a power of 2
18:11:31 <ais523> ((x+(sizeof(long))-1)/(sizeof(long)))*(sizeof(long))
18:11:40 <ais523> AnMaster: nope, you can legally have a 24-bit long in C, for instance
18:11:56 <ais523> Deewiant: 7 is also too short
18:12:01 <ais523> although you can have a 9-bit char
18:12:08 <AnMaster> ais523, depends on which C version iirc
18:12:24 <ehird> Deewiant: minimum 8
18:12:34 <AnMaster> ais523, and you can't have 9 bit char in C99 logically. Since there is int8_t
18:12:40 <ais523> Deewiant: yep, unsigned char is specified minimum range 0-255
18:12:43 <ehird> Deewiant: Because they said so.
18:12:44 <ais523> so it has to be at least 8 bits
18:12:47 <AnMaster> ais523, how the hell would you represent int8_t with 9 bit chars
18:12:49 <ais523> AnMaster: you can, in that case int8_t is undefined
18:13:00 <AnMaster> ais523, isn't it required? I don't remember
18:13:08 <ais523> it's required iff it exists
18:13:16 <ais523> which is why I hope you check if it exists by using ifdef, without using it
18:13:18 <AnMaster> ais523, POSIX 2008 specifies 8 bit char at least. No more no less.
18:13:22 <ais523> (POSIX does require char to be 8 bits, though)
18:13:32 <ehird> 18:13 ais523: it's required iff it exists
18:13:36 <ehird> that's brilliantly pointless
18:13:41 <AnMaster> ais523, since I depend on POSIX that is a non-issue :P
18:13:54 <ais523> ehird: I mean, if there is a signed type that happens to be exactly 8 bits long, then int8_t has to be defined
18:14:00 <ais523> if there isn't, then it needn't be
18:15:02 <fizzie> u?int_least{8,16,32,64}_t are always required in C99, though.
18:15:18 <ais523> just thinking DS9K for a moment: imagine a system with 8-bit char, 24-bit short, and a proprietary 16-bit type as an extension
18:15:29 <ais523> I wonder if it would be legal to define int16_t but not uint16_t in that case?
18:16:28 <fizzie> ais523: C99 phrasing is "These types [int/unitN_t] are optional. However, if an implementation provides integer types with widths of 8, 16, 32, or 64 bits, it shall define the corresponding typedef names." Make of that what you wish.
18:16:43 <fizzie> Although that does seem to imply that if intN_t exists, uintN_t should too.
18:17:33 <fizzie> For those widths, anyway. Maybe. Unless you are specifying the typedef even when the implementation does not provide an integer type with the corresponding width, but I don't know how that should work.
18:17:51 <GregorR-L> Psssssssssst ... somebody type !mush :P
18:17:59 <EgoBot> Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg
18:18:07 -!- ehird has changed nick to someone.
18:18:12 <ais523> hmm... mush seems to have been programmed separately
18:18:16 -!- someone has changed nick to ehird.
18:18:21 <ehird> GregorR-L: I can't DCC.
18:18:48 <GregorR-L> Sort of, but you need to send \r\n mebbe
18:18:54 <ehird> Oh great. GregorR-L: No line editing.
18:18:55 <Deewiant> GregorR-L: who, news, and help all give the same output, the intro message :-P
18:19:07 <ehird> GregorR-L: Add it and I'll try.
18:19:19 <ehird> or can telnet servers not do that?
18:19:19 <Deewiant> ehird: If you prefer netcat then don't complain about it's limitations
18:19:19 <fizzie> Can you run netcat with rlwrap?
18:19:24 <ehird> Deewiant: I used telnt
18:19:30 <ais523> but nobody else seems to be
18:19:42 <Deewiant> I tried to be there via DCC but it doesn't work
18:19:44 <ais523> and there only seem to be two rooms
18:19:58 <GregorR-L> People usually use MUSH clients, and an IRC client isn't actually a bad one.
18:20:31 <pikhq> (assuming a MUSH that handles TERM=VT100 well)
18:21:10 <AnMaster> GregorR, care to explain what the hell it is about
18:21:18 <ehird> AnMaster: it's a MUSH
18:21:22 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSH
18:22:16 <AnMaster> GregorR, the who command doesn't work. It just prints the intro message
18:22:24 <ehird> 18:18 Deewiant: GregorR-L: who, news, and help all give the same output, the intro message :-P
18:25:33 <ehird> Quinn is actually Gregor!
18:25:41 <ehird> Quinn is actually gregor!
18:29:57 <AnMaster> GregorR, tell me when you 1) fixed the pick up bug 2) made something more interesting in there 3) Added a better interface so you can actually see what happens. Colour codes would help.
18:30:26 <ehird> WAAH YOUR MUSH ISN'T HOW I WANT IT GO FIX IT LAMEO
18:30:34 <ehird> <W|A> Assuming "or" is referring to math | Use as referring to math instead
18:30:35 * ais523 drops AnMaster in a Turign Tarpit
18:30:43 <pikhq> AND TAKING MY BALL WITH ME!
18:31:00 <ehird> ais523: if you click the other one, it gives you truth tables and forms etc, otherwise just the input
18:31:00 <AnMaster> since I'm much more interesting in coding on in-between than that mush
18:31:10 <ais523> ehird: I just dropped you in the turing tarpit too
18:31:19 <GregorR-L> Anyway, if anybody wants to actually poke around at the MUSH, I'll give you wizard privileges.
18:31:19 <ehird> what's the turing tarpet ay
18:31:26 <ais523> ehird: it's north of esoland
18:31:38 <ehird> as in, closed the window
18:31:45 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not sure I'm going to log in again. Unless GregorR addresses those mentioned issues.
18:31:56 <ais523> well, I've left for now too
18:32:00 <ais523> I may poke around later
18:32:02 <ehird> AnMaster: who cares
18:32:17 <ais523> what pick up bug, anyway?
18:32:22 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> GregorR, tell me when you 1) fixed the pick up bug 2) made something more interesting in there 3) Added a better interface so you can actually see what happens. Colour codes would help.
18:32:28 <ais523> grabbing other people doesn't strike me as a ridiculous thing to be able to do
18:32:29 <AnMaster> ais523, that you can pick up other people
18:32:38 <ais523> AnMaster: that's deliberate, almost certainly
18:32:39 <AnMaster> and put them in your inventory
18:33:17 <ehird> ais523: how do you make a stream unbuffered in c? setbuf/setvbuf etc need you to specify a buffer location etc.
18:33:24 <GregorR-L> That locks you so only you can pick ... you ... up. Except you can't actually pick yourself up :P
18:33:29 <ais523> ehird: it's with setvbuf
18:33:35 <ais523> there's a special combination of options
18:33:41 <ais523> probably involving null in the buffer location
18:33:43 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, there is no complete list of commands btw. I had to guess that it was "quit" to quit
18:33:45 <GregorR-L> In a MUSH, /everything/ is an object. Everything. That's just how MUSHes are. Rooms are objects, exits are objects, people are objects.
18:33:46 <ais523> together with another couple of things
18:33:54 <ehird> setbuf(stream, NULL)
18:33:58 <AnMaster> GregorR, that is yet another issue.
18:34:17 <ehird> also, prize to anyone who figures out a good use for p&&(!q||(!r&&(p&&q))). http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=p+and+%28%28not+q%29+or+%28%28not+r%29+and+%28p+and+q%29%29%29&a=*C.or-_*MathOperator- for truth table
18:34:18 <GregorR-L> OMG, you have to learn how to MUSH before you MUSH, shocking :P
18:34:24 <ehird> GregorR-L: YO DAWG
18:34:32 <AnMaster> GregorR-L, help commands didn't give me a list of commands.
18:34:43 <AnMaster> GregorR, nor could I find one anywhere else
18:34:47 <ais523> AnMaster: there are a few hundred of them, I imagine
18:35:01 <ehird> I seee. I am far too esteemed for this.
18:35:07 <ehird> % ./slashes /dev/zero
18:35:07 <ehird> zsh: segmentation fault ./slashes /dev/zero
18:35:13 <ehird> I wonder if fstat reports the size of /dev/zero wrong?
18:35:30 <ehird> AnMaster: Congrats, you're a flooder.
18:35:37 <GregorR-L> ehird: Assuming "or" is referring to math | Use as referring to math instead
18:35:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm just copying your behaviour
18:35:43 <ehird> GregorR-L: Yeah. :-P
18:36:08 <ehird> AnMaster: Soon you'll be copying behaviour I rarely do so much that you'll be a giant dickwad.
18:36:12 <ehird> % ls -lh /dev/zero
18:36:13 <ehird> crw-rw-rw- 1 root wheel 3, 3 6 May 18:17 /dev/zero
18:36:17 <ehird> I wonder what that comma is?
18:36:22 <AnMaster> ehird, you seem to do it quite a lot.
18:36:27 <ais523> ehird: 3,3 is the name of the device
18:36:35 <ais523> as in, they're the numbers you tell the kernel
18:36:36 <AnMaster> "<ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care. <ehird> I don't care."
18:36:36 <ehird> AnMaster: And as we were taught in school: Two wrongs make a right.
18:36:40 <ais523> in order to access /dev/zero
18:36:43 <ehird> AnMaster: that was after you flooded me
18:36:57 <ehird> I only flood in response to being constantly bugged about something repeatedly.
18:37:05 <AnMaster> ehird, Odd definition of flood.
18:37:05 <ehird> ais523: what do you think its size as reported as?
18:37:14 <ais523> it isn't, I don't think
18:37:17 <AnMaster> asking nicely until you get an answer != flood.
18:37:25 <AnMaster> flood is posting a lot quickly
18:37:28 <ehird> AnMaster: Nicely? haha
18:37:40 <ehird> you continually demand an answer from me as if you have some kind of obligation
18:37:40 <AnMaster> ehird, the one above wasn't nicely no.
18:37:46 <fizzie> You can't use the st_size as more of a hint what you might be getting from the file, though.
18:37:57 <ehird> when has repeatedly asking me ever helped AnMaster?
18:38:05 <ehird> fizzie: Oh? Why not?
18:38:06 <fizzie> Anyway, I can hardly see how it could report a "correct size" for /dev/zero.
18:38:11 <ehird> fizzie: It's an fstat on an open file.
18:38:14 <ais523> well, it's infinitely large
18:38:18 <AnMaster> ehird, since you seem to be attacking me when I say that MUSH seems boring and I'm not going to look at it again unless these major issues are addressed.
18:38:28 <fizzie> ehird: Someone could still write more into it.
18:38:31 <ais523> AnMaster: it's that we don't think they're major issues
18:38:33 <ehird> AnMaster: I was mimicing your whining.
18:38:59 <ehird> You acted, AnMaster, as if you have a sense of entitlement to have these "bugs" fixed. You called them—objectively—bugs. You acted in a way that would suggest you'd "want your money back".
18:39:00 <ais523> in fact, you're complaining about intended behaviour
18:39:07 <ehird> This is called "unreasonable", and I mocked it.
18:39:08 <AnMaster> bbl, got more interesting stuff to do.
18:39:19 <ehird> fizzie: Well, true.
18:39:25 <ehird> fizzie: It's such a pain to reallocate, though.
18:39:26 -!- Judofyr has joined.
18:39:27 <AnMaster> ais523, Like the horrible messy interface. That is hard to read.
18:39:37 <ehird> maybe you need glasses, AnMaster
18:39:41 <AnMaster> well 90% of all UIs are bad. True.
18:39:43 <ehird> it isn't perfect but it's easy to read.
18:39:44 <ais523> AnMaster: it's intended for streaming onto a client, I think
18:39:49 <ais523> it's exactly the same as IRC over telnet
18:39:52 <ais523> just with less metadata
18:40:23 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. But why did he make it available over DCC then without adding that translation
18:40:36 <ehird> Because it's a quick hack?
18:40:51 <AnMaster> Since obviously Egobot acts as a gateway/proxy there
18:41:02 <AnMaster> translating to another protocol.
18:41:06 <ais523> beh, Wolfram Alpha fails on "turing machine 596440"
18:41:11 <ais523> which I'd expect it to be good at
18:41:38 <ehird> ais523: what about 2,3?
18:41:47 <ais523> ehird: I tried that search term too
18:41:53 <ais523> but there are lots of 2,3 turing machines around
18:41:54 <ehird> W|A can't handle (p and ~q and ~r and s) or (~p and q and ~r and s) or (p and ~q and r and ~s) or (~p and q and r and ~s)
18:41:57 <ehird> but it can handle similar things
18:42:08 <pikhq> The DCC chat protocol is Telnet with metadata over IRC.
18:42:12 <ais523> it helps to specify which
18:42:15 <ehird> pikhq: are you sure?
18:42:31 <ehird> I thought you meant
18:42:34 <fizzie> W|A: "universal turing machine" => "Computability: Additional functionality for this topic is under development... Leave your email address to be notified whan it is ready."
18:42:34 <ehird> the dcc chats itself had metadata
18:42:37 <ehird> those are just raw telnet
18:42:37 <pikhq> ehird: The connection is negotiated via IRC.
18:42:47 <ehird> ais523: any idea why my query doesn't work?
18:43:38 <ais523> ehird: yes, Wolfram Alpha doesn't have a special case for that yet
18:43:54 <ehird> ais523: no, but, seriously; shorter forms using the same variables work
18:44:11 <ehird> for instance, "p and ~q and ~r and s" works
18:44:27 <ehird> ais523: (p and ~q and ~r and s) or (~p and q and ~r and s) also works
18:44:31 <ehird> but the longer form — bzzt
18:45:06 <ehird> ais523: [ Infrastructure for this computation provided by Wolfram|Alpha launch partner Dell, Inc. ]
18:45:29 <fizzie> "(p and ~q and ~r and s) or (~p and q and ~r and s) or (q and p and r)" also works, but not if you add the missing "and s" to that last group.
18:45:44 <ehird> fizzie: that's truly bizarre
18:46:01 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:46:02 <ehird> i mean, i was starting to have fun!
18:46:25 <fizzie> Maybe their logic-circuit drawing tool would start to overheat at that point.
18:46:37 <fizzie> Or they couldn't figure out how to do the Venn diagram any more.
18:46:50 <ehird> ais523: I figured out what the math-or-math thing means
18:46:50 <GregorR-L> I'm trying to get it to give me the life expectancy in Europe in the middle ages, and it times out :P
18:46:59 <ehird> click use as referring to math and you get:
18:47:00 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=p+implies+%28not+q+or+r%29&a=*C.or-_*InfixFunctionOperator-&a=ListOrTimes_Times
18:47:05 <ehird> click again and you get
18:47:05 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=p+implies+%28not+q+or+r%29&a=*C.or-_*MathOperator-&a=ListOrTimes_Times
18:47:10 <ehird> so it's infix function operator vs math operator.
18:47:17 <ehird> a mathematical distinction, probably
18:47:43 <ehird> I almost turned into wolfram there
18:48:06 <ehird> Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.Tips for good results »
18:48:06 <ehird> Related inputs to try:
18:48:07 <ehird> life expectancy in Europe the middle ages more...
18:48:13 <Slereah> Will you give me free Mathematicas then?
18:48:14 <ehird> where life expectancy in Europe is separate from the other
18:48:17 <oerjan> ehird: p&&(!q||(!r&&(p&&q))) = p&&(!q||(!r&&q)) = p&&(!q||!r)
18:48:28 <ehird> oerjan: oh, how boring :-D
18:48:29 <ais523> <Wolfram> We’ve always thought that Mathematica was an increasingly development environment.
18:48:39 <ehird> ais523: they accidentally the adjective
18:48:49 <ais523> no, he accidentally the adverb
18:48:58 <ehird> ais523: "increasingly powerful development environment"
18:49:03 <Slereah> ehird : If you are now Wolfram
18:49:08 <ehird> thougth you said verb
18:49:13 <fizzie> ehird: Did you not notice the "p&&(!q||!r)" form in the "minimal forms" table?
18:49:31 <ehird> fizzie: Yyeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssss...
18:49:39 <ehird> GregorR-L: middle+ages+life+expectancy+in+europe doesn't work either
18:50:31 <oerjan> ehird: i did not look at the page, actually *ducks*
18:50:57 <ehird> european life expectancy in middle ages
18:50:58 <ehird> doesn't work either
18:51:01 <ehird> even though each part does
18:51:11 <ehird> life expectancy in middle ages
18:52:04 <ehird> GregorR-L: I guess they don't have the data
18:52:08 <fizzie> The nonsensical "middle europe the middle of the" gets input interpretation "Europe | center coordinates | Europe | center coordinates" but no results.
18:52:48 <ehird> "middle europe the middle of the" is hilarious and I don't know why
18:53:16 * ehird asks european bulldogs' wingspan
18:53:42 <ehird> (p and ~q and ~r and s) or (~p and q and ~r and s) or (p and ~q and r and ~s) or (~p and q and r and ~s) works now!
18:54:00 <ais523> ehird: I think it's Cuiled
18:54:09 <ehird> ais523: whadya mean
18:54:11 <ais523> which is like being slashdotted, but instead of timing out, you randomly return worse results
18:54:21 <ehird> not worse results, I think
18:54:22 <ais523> which is what happened to Cuil, and everyone thought it was rubbish
18:54:29 <ehird> i'm having quite a fun time with this, actually
18:54:36 <ehird> it's good if you don't use it for what wolfram wants you to
18:55:18 <ehird> I fixed it to as-in-math
18:55:20 <ehird> and it chopped my input
18:55:22 <AnMaster> <ais523> which is like being slashdotted, but instead of timing out, you randomly return worse results <-- that makes a bad impression. Important rule: Always make it time out or display an error message in case of failure.
18:55:23 <ehird> oh, maybe i'd just entered it
18:55:36 <ehird> AnMaster: it doesn't make a bad impression in normal usage
18:55:37 <ais523> AnMaster: well, cuil /did/ make a bad impression
18:55:41 <ehird> some results are better than an error
18:55:44 <ais523> it isn't nearly as bad as everyone thought it was
18:59:52 <fizzie> Height of the tallest tree is 0.86 times the length of Noah's Ark; that's useful information if anything.
19:00:43 <fizzie> I did know that football fields and such are generally used as human-grokkable size units, but I didn't know Noah's Ark even had a well-defined length. (300 cubits.)
19:00:54 <ehird> Interpretation: Jesus | runtime
19:01:02 <ehird> Result: 117 minutes (1 hour 57 minutes)
19:01:05 <ehird> Assuming Jesus (1979) | Use Jesus (2000) instead
19:01:13 <ehird> The third and fourth comings, clearly.
19:01:26 <fizzie> The year 2000 Jesus runs for 240 minutes. It's a much improved version.
19:01:30 <ehird> "Genres drama | family"
19:01:52 <ehird> "box office total $43,124"
19:01:57 <ehird> Jesus in 1979 was wildly popular.
19:02:21 <fizzie> ehird: Well, "height of Jesus" => "Interpretation: Jesus, Itapua, Paraguay | elevation" => 221 metres.
19:02:27 <ehird> i was about to say
19:02:41 <fizzie> 221 metres, no wonder He made quite an impression.
19:02:57 <ehird> how tall's christ the redeemer?
19:03:07 <GregorR-L> BTW, making TinyMUSH spew colors and/or at least highlights = wowzersdifficult.
19:03:17 <ehird> it's the miniature version
19:04:06 <ehird> the issue seems to be is that it has no idea his height
19:04:13 <ehird> this is contravarsial
19:04:18 <ehird> it places his date of birth as 4 BC
19:04:38 <ehird> pikhq: as a christian, what is your stance on that? :-P
19:04:46 <ais523> I have no idea how accurate Alpha's data is
19:04:53 <ais523> if it got Jimbo's birthdate wrong, what else could be wrong?
19:04:58 <ehird> it also spells bethlehem as Bayt Lahm, which while correct is amusing
19:05:00 <ais523> (I reported the error to Alpha, btw, to see what happened)
19:05:04 <ehird> ais523: click source information
19:05:10 <ehird> primary source: Wolfram|Alpha
19:05:17 <ehird> ais523: i mean on http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=jesus+christ
19:05:21 <pikhq> ehird: ... That's controversial?
19:05:23 <ais523> including Wikipedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica
19:05:33 <ehird> pikhq: it isn't? Wasn't he born - yknow - 1 AD?
19:05:45 <ais523> it's slightly worrying that they list the Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 as a source for Jimbo's birth
19:05:50 <pikhq> ehird: I though that it was fairly well-known that 1 AD was the wrong date, and we only use it because of tradition.
19:06:07 <ehird> pikhq: I will never understand religion.
19:06:50 <pikhq> This isn't even a case of religion.
19:06:59 <pikhq> This is a case of dating methods.
19:07:24 <ehird> pikhq: ah, so the stance is "4 BC was called 1 AD when the bible was written"?
19:07:50 <ehird> er, i wrote that wrong
19:07:55 <ehird> whatever, infer the correct meaning :^)
19:08:25 <pikhq> No, the stance is rather "in the middle ages, we though Jesus was born 1 AD, so we stuck that as the calendar's epoch. As it turns out, we had the wrong date. Too late to change the epoch."
19:08:47 <pikhq> Our current dating system didn't exist during Christ's lifetime, you see. ;)
19:08:56 <ehird> i just don't understand how both "the people who wrote the bible were wrong about stuff" and "the bible is the true word of God" can co-exist
19:08:59 <GregorR-L> Distance to the moon / height of mt everest = 45296
19:09:25 <GregorR-L> Uhhhh, there's no mention of BC or AD in the Bible ...
19:09:33 <pikhq> ehird: There weren't many specific dates in the Bible itself.
19:09:35 <ehird> GregorR-L: thus my phrasology
19:09:42 <ehird> 19:07 ehird: er, i wrote that wrong
19:09:42 <ehird> 19:07 ehird: whatever, infer the correct meaning :^)
19:09:54 <GregorR-L> I have no idea what the correct meaning is :P
19:09:59 <pikhq> The dating itself is from 400 AD and later.
19:10:02 <ehird> yeah well that's your problem GregorR-L :)
19:10:02 <GregorR-L> There just was no exact date in the Bible, so they guessed.
19:10:24 <pikhq> And as it turns out, they were off by a few years.
19:10:57 <ehird> w|a doesn't know what christianity is
19:10:59 <pikhq> That's about as controversial in Christian circles as whether or not Christ was born. :p
19:11:03 <GregorR-L> Average distance to Jupiter in lightminutes = 41.26
19:11:04 <ehird> although it knows it's in the category religion
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19:13:15 <GregorR-L> I'm trying to make it give me a plot of the distance to Jupiter now, and it's failing :P
19:13:25 <ehird> GregorR-L: plot of what
19:13:42 <GregorR-L> ...... the distance to Jupiter. Over time.
19:14:00 <ehird> GregorR-L: Over time of what?
19:14:06 <ehird> I'm trying to get you to be specific to W|A here ;-)
19:14:23 <ehird> GregorR-L: What, exactly, do you want plotted?
19:14:39 <GregorR-L> The distance from Earth to Jupiter over ANY period of time.
19:14:46 <ehird> From earth. To jupiter. There you go.
19:15:01 <ehird> GregorR-L: try "plot distance to jupiter from earth over 2007 to 2008"
19:15:06 <ehird> http://www.justin.tv/clip/2dd6b9f07e7f8a4e the same guy is still standing up
19:15:45 <GregorR-L> ehird: I tried something very similar before, and that now, and neither work.
19:16:03 <GregorR-L> GEEZE WOLFRAM ALPHA GIMME DA PLOTS
19:16:06 <ehird> Oh well, fudge with the input.
19:16:22 <ehird> GregorR-L: start simple and build up
19:16:34 <GregorR-L> I've tried tons of things, I'm out of ideas :P
19:16:42 <ehird> GregorR-L: "distance to jupiter" infers "from earth"
19:16:54 <GregorR-L> Yes, I've got all that, that's dull.
19:17:03 * ehird tries distance to jupiter
19:17:19 <ehird> GregorR-L: "distance | from to Jupiter, Florida, United States"
19:17:23 * ehird tries distance to jupiter, 2007 to 2008
19:17:23 <fizzie> It is hard to get it to understand "distance to Jupiter" without it interpreting the distance part as "current distance from Earth".
19:18:28 <fizzie> Hmm, "distance to jupiter 1999" works; "input interpretation: Jupiter | current distance from Earth | 1999" and "Result on Jan 1, 1999: 5.171 AU".
19:18:34 <fizzie> Hard to get plots out of it though.
19:18:51 * ehird asks distance+to+jupiter+2007+to+2008
19:19:01 <ehird> {2007 distance | from to Jupiter,Florida,United States,2008 distance | from to Jupiter,Florida,United States}
19:19:15 <ais523> Jupiter is in Florida?
19:19:23 <ehird> distance to jupiter 2007, 2008
19:19:23 <ehird> 6.173 AU (astronomical units) | 2008
19:19:33 <GregorR-L> "Distance to jupiter since 1900" gives the distance to Jupiter in 1900 from the town Since, Colombia
19:20:15 <ehird> 6.173 AU (astronomical units) | 2008
19:20:20 <ehird> distance to jupiter in 2007 and 2008
19:20:23 <ehird> interprets and as logical and
19:20:52 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=distance+to+jupiter+in+2007%2C+distance+to+jupiter+in+2008
19:21:17 <Deewiant> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=why+did+the+chicken+cross+the+road%3F
19:21:47 <ehird> GregorR-L: wait, it plots functions
19:21:58 <GregorR-L> Yeah, I'm tring plot distance to Jupiter at time x
19:22:04 * ehird tries plot distance to jupiter x from x=1900 to 2008
19:22:12 <ehird> plot | Lysithea | current distance from Earth | x = 1900 to 2008
19:22:41 <ehird> plot (distance to jupiter in x) from x=1900 to 2008
19:23:55 <ehird> england to england works, england to england via australia doesn't :-(
19:24:28 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=england+to+jupiter+by+plane NOT FLORIDA AGAIN!
19:26:34 <Slereah> There is no constant distance between the two
19:26:46 <GregorR-L> That's why we're plotting it over time.
19:27:26 <Slereah> That's a pretty good time for Jupiter
19:28:12 <GregorR-L> I really think this is entirely incapable of giving me the plot I want.
19:29:57 <Slereah> Also how do you even calculate the geodesic from England to Jupiter?
19:32:51 <GregorR-L> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=JFK+to+Newark+by+plane
19:36:06 <ehird> W|A can't figure out someone's lifespan
19:41:37 <ehird> "age when john f kennedy died" works
19:41:41 <ehird> without anything before it
19:41:48 <ehird> ais523: W|A can infer more context than humans..
20:03:44 <GregorR-L> So BTW, all the commands at the login screen work, they're just case sensitive (like it says they are)
20:16:02 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28%28p+and+q%29+and+%28%28r+xor+%7Es%29+and+t%29%29+or+%28%7Ep+and+%7Et%29
20:16:09 <ehird> most fucked up expression ever?
20:16:13 <ehird> that venn diagram is fun
20:16:20 <ehird> it's a butterfly, one of its wings is highilghted
20:28:32 <AnMaster> <GregorR-L> 145 seconds! INTOLERABLE <-- that seems way way too low
20:30:54 <ehird> I challenge you all:
20:31:12 <ehird> Find the Wolfram Alpha boolean expression giving the most hideously complex logic circuit you can.
20:31:15 <ehird> ais523: GregorR-L: you're on.
20:31:26 <AnMaster> <ehird> Find the Wolfram Alpha boolean expression giving the most hideously complex logic circuit you can. <-- cool idea
20:32:24 <oerjan> AnMaster: erm, JFK and Newark are in the same city iirc
20:32:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, ah. Even so it doesn't make much sense since an aircraft can't reach top speed right away.
20:33:12 <ehird> you could easily do it in 145 seconds
20:33:59 <AnMaster> That isn't allowed though. There is this check list thing before you take off. And then you need to wait for take off/landing permissions and so on.
20:34:10 <ehird> AnMaster: it's by plane
20:34:13 <ehird> not by plane legally
20:34:19 <ehird> or by plane according to standard regulations
20:34:44 <ehird> AnMaster: oh, a rule for the competition: if there's a minimal form that gives a simpler logic circuit, you're out
20:34:45 <AnMaster> ehird, even so, for so short distances the take off time is a significant portion of it
20:35:23 <AnMaster> ehird, and you can't speed up to max speed that fast. Nor can you fly at the max speed at low level. Learn the difference between IAS, TAS and GS
20:35:52 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm not entering that competition
20:38:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what about (p and q) or (p and (not p or s) and (not r or q or (not q and t))) and (not t) though
20:39:08 <AnMaster> though, the nand form may be easier
20:39:33 <AnMaster> Sorry, Wolfram Alpha is temporarily unavailable. Please try again.
20:39:33 <AnMaster> Error: DataPacletFilter: Unable to get Connection Too many connections
20:39:35 <ehird> AnMaster: the (p&&q)||(p&&!r&&s&&!t) form of that has a simpler circuit
20:39:46 <ehird> the idea is to get an actual operation that's hard in a logic circuit
20:39:48 <ehird> try using loads of variables
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20:40:46 <AnMaster> Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input.
20:40:50 <AnMaster> (p and q) or (p and (not p or s) and (not r or q or (not q and t))) and (not t) or (a and not (not b or c))
20:40:55 <ehird> AnMaster: "and not"
20:40:58 <ehird> use ~ instead of not
20:41:10 <AnMaster> ehird, what do you mean "and not"?
20:41:10 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, I win
20:41:12 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=a+or+b+nor+c+xor+d+nand+e+xor+f+and+g+or+e
20:41:16 <ehird> arguably, that's cheating
20:41:21 <ehird> AnMaster: from your thing: "or (a and not (not b or c))"
20:41:26 <ehird> and not is probably tripping it up
20:41:38 <ehird> because its parser sucks
20:41:45 <AnMaster> ehird, and yes yours is cheating
20:41:55 <ehird> let's say: only p to s
20:42:21 <ehird> so boring that you attempted it
20:42:34 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, and while doing that i found out it was boring
20:43:05 <AnMaster> ehird, I fail to see what you mean with your comment above
20:43:27 <AnMaster> you can't know without testing it
20:44:05 <ehird> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=And%5BOr%5BNand%5Bp%2CXor%5Bq%2Cr%5D%5D%2Cs%5D%2Cp%5D
20:45:24 <ais523> what a weird shape for a Venn diagram
20:45:39 <ehird> hey guys, AnMaster isn't playing
20:45:40 <AnMaster> ais523, there is no such diagram there?
20:45:47 -!- cherez has joined.
20:45:54 <AnMaster> ehird, so who did you win against
20:45:56 -!- cherez has left (?).
20:46:02 <ais523> AnMaster: there is, but not all the page will load if Alpha is busy
20:46:23 <AnMaster> there is no logic circuit either
20:46:45 <AnMaster> ais523, can you upload a screenshot
20:46:54 <ais523> that would not be worth it
20:47:00 <ais523> just try again when they are less busy
20:47:27 <ehird> strangely they did not magically get less busy
20:48:04 <ehird> fun fact: nand(p,xor(t,nor(p,t))) is nand(p,t)
20:50:58 <ehird> ais523: how do you think I should ask it about the forall/implies logic?
20:51:20 <AnMaster> three progress bars slowly crossing
20:51:35 <AnMaster> nothing at all apart from that now
20:51:58 <fizzie> FAQ: "Should I cite Wolfram|Alpha when I use results from it? Yes. For academic purposes, Wolfram|Alpha is a primary source."
20:52:03 <ehird> 20:51 kyevan: ehird: Eh, why?
20:52:04 <ehird> 20:51 kyevan: Also, ehird: SINE MISSES YOU
20:52:05 <ehird> 20:51 ehird: kyevan: Well, t'was done when Arc came out. I am become Haskell, destroyer of egos.
20:52:07 <ehird> 20:51 ehird: Also, aagh!
20:52:44 <ehird> AnMaster: which one
20:53:54 <ehird> AnMaster: That was in #haskell, and if you don't know what Sine is, you could try asking someone who does.
20:54:07 <AnMaster> ehird, I know what the sine function is
20:54:14 <AnMaster> but I don't see the joke anyway
20:54:17 <ehird> Nothing to do with that.
20:54:37 <Slereah> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i={x|x+not+in+x}
20:54:47 <Slereah> Why won't you understand me
20:55:44 <AnMaster> Slereah, isn't that Russell's paradox?
20:57:04 -!- sebbu has quit (Success).
20:58:17 <AnMaster> why does wolfram alpha has a control room that is mentioned whenever it times out
20:58:27 <ehird> AnMaster: why not?
20:58:33 <ehird> it's a bunch of people looking at figures and laptops
20:58:44 <AnMaster> ehird, it isn't like it is NASA.
20:58:53 <ehird> AnMaster: do not underestimate Wolfram's ego.
20:59:04 <AnMaster> ah yes, to him it *is* rocket science
20:59:07 <Slereah> Can they make an erotic dance?
21:01:45 <AnMaster> ok: http://www4a.wolframalpha.com/Calculate/MSP/MSP4883195gc302i3ag9ae1000057gfdb6c7cbg6h08?MSPStoreType=image/gif&s=47
21:02:13 <ehird> AnMaster: you agree with what?
21:02:56 <AnMaster> No results found for "Boolean operator number".
21:02:57 <ehird> AnMaster: wolfram's thing.
21:03:07 <ehird> mostly it = the 1d cellular automata number
21:03:10 <ehird> if it's simple enough
21:03:17 <AnMaster> ehird, oh right, his fixation with numbers
21:03:29 <Slereah> Also no result for kolmogorov machine :(
21:03:39 <ais523> nor even turing machine
21:03:42 <fizzie> ehird: "If you are under age 18 you may use Wolfram|Alpha only if you have permission from a parent, legal guardian, or teacher." I assume you've taken care of this?
21:03:50 <ehird> fizzie: Wow, now that's retarded.
21:03:53 <ais523> err, how do they enforce that?
21:03:58 <fizzie> It's right there in the Terms of Use.
21:04:01 <ehird> Let's just say I teach myself things and thus am a teacher of me.
21:04:10 <ehird> I have indeed given myself permission to use Wolfram Alpha.
21:04:13 <ehird> AnMaster: "Wolfram|Alpha"
21:04:15 <fizzie> If you continue to use it, you're assuring them you're either 18 or have the required permissions.
21:04:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but where is the hidden link
21:04:46 <Slereah> ehird : Are you your own parent?
21:04:49 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's at least in the FAQ.
21:05:05 <ais523> "These terms are a contract you have to agree to before using the Wolfram|Alpha service. "
21:05:12 <ais523> how can they manage that, if most people never read them?
21:05:16 <ais523> they don't even have a clickthrough
21:05:23 <ais523> and because people below 18 can't legally agree to contracts
21:05:44 <Slereah> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=porn
21:05:45 <fizzie> There's also a terms of use link at the bottom of the front page, though it's not very visible.
21:05:55 <Slereah> It does link to "child pornography" rather quickly
21:06:31 <fizzie> Haha, the continuation of that part is even better.
21:06:35 <fizzie> "By using the service you are telling us either that you are over age 18 and legally able to form contracts, or that an adult with authority to act on your behalf has agreed to these terms and to be responsible for ensuring your compliance with them in your use of the service and any results you obtain from it. If you don't want to be bound by these terms, do not use the service or its results. However, you may want to consider one of our paid subs
21:06:36 <fizzie> cription options, which offer modified terms of use that may be more desirable to you."
21:06:46 <fizzie> "If you're not old enough, you can just pay us."
21:07:07 <AnMaster> ais523, I only found out that google had terms of use after several years of using it
21:07:43 <ais523> "If you make results from Wolfram|Alpha available to anyone else, or incorporate those results into your own documents or presentations, you must include attribution indicating that the results and/or the presentation of the results came from Wolfram|Alpha."
21:07:51 <ais523> oh no, they have the odious Mathematica advertising clause in Alpha too
21:08:31 <fizzie> ehird: Besides, your little competition might have violated the terms too. "Any attempt to use a robot, script, or *organized group of humans* [emphasis mine] to repeatedly access Wolfram|Alpha -- is strictly forbidden."
21:08:42 <fizzie> Maybe we're too disorganized to count, though.
21:08:53 <ais523> "The specific images, such as plots, typeset formulas, and tables, as well as the general page layouts, are all copyrighted by Wolfram|Alpha at the time Wolfram|Alpha generates them." <--- is that even legal?
21:09:18 <fizzie> ais523: If Wolfram|Alpha is sentient, why not? :p
21:09:27 <AnMaster> ais523, where is the advert clause you mentioned
21:09:42 <ais523> second para of "Attribution and Licensing"
21:10:52 <AnMaster> A list of suggested citation styles and icons is available <a href="http://www.wolframalpha.com/comingsoon.html">here</a>.
21:10:54 <ais523> "If any provision of the Terms of Use is held to be invalid or unenforceable, such provision shall be deemed superseded by a valid enforceable provision that most closely matches the intent of the original provision, and the remaining provisions shall continue in full force and effect."
21:11:15 <ais523> wtf, their lawyers have taken the standard severability clause much further
21:11:25 <ais523> if the contract is invalid, it rewrites itself so that it's valid
21:11:31 <ais523> that's a lot more ridiculous than just severability
21:12:37 <AnMaster> "Spidering, data-mining, scraping, or probing Wolfram|Alpha, or otherwise attempting to abuse the service, is not only a violation of these terms but may also constitute violation of federal and state laws concerning unauthorized access to computer systems."
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21:12:52 <ais523> they should sue Google
21:13:10 <AnMaster> ais523, who will just say "use robots.txt"
21:13:43 <fizzie> You are also not permitted to stick frames around Wolfram|Alpha (no matter how clearly you point out that it's not part of your site or any such thing) without their express permission.
21:13:56 <ais523> they're trying to ban all sorts of things
21:13:57 <AnMaster> fizzie, I don't see why I should it
21:14:05 <ais523> that clearly wouldn't work as an EULA, but they're trying to make it work as a contract
21:14:07 <AnMaster> I don't want their messy web page
21:14:09 <ais523> without any explicit way to agree to it
21:14:24 <ais523> "These terms are a contract you have to agree to before using the Wolfram|Alpha service." <-- factually incorrect
21:14:34 <ais523> because clearly, lots of people have used it without reading them
21:14:47 <AnMaster> and I'm not going to use it again.
21:15:01 <ehird> apart from it sucking
21:15:19 <ehird> 21:14 ais523: "These terms are a contract you have to agree to before using the Wolfram|Alpha service." <-- factually incorrect
21:15:21 <ehird> therefore, they don't apply
21:15:24 <AnMaster> last I looked google's TOS was at least unusually sane.
21:15:39 <AnMaster> though that was a few years ago
21:15:44 <ais523> ehird: I suspect their lawyers have gone mad
21:15:57 <fizzie> Well, Google has a cached copy of http://www.wolframalpha.com/ so I'm sure they've violated at least some of them. It's been automagically crawled, for one thing, and the cached copy is "surrounding" it with some own material.
21:16:35 <AnMaster> someone should report this to wolfram alpha just to see how they react when they realise what happened.
21:17:05 <AnMaster> because then wolfram alpha might get mad when it isn't listed in google any more
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22:09:34 <AnMaster> 99% of all food can only be improved by adding more garlic
22:10:06 <ais523> <AnMaster> 99% of all food can only be improved by adding more garlic
22:10:15 <AnMaster> the remaining 1% hm... Well gralic icecream... It is a chance in a million, but it might just work!
22:10:19 <ais523> somehow, I'm surprised you have that opinion
22:10:23 <ais523> you in particular, that is
22:10:37 <ehird> and 100% of all food can only be improved by adding more bacon
22:10:43 <ehird> additionally, 100% of all food can only be improved by adding more chocolat
22:10:50 <GregorR-L> The only thing that can't be improved by adding garlic is those things that have already had too much garlic added :P
22:10:56 <ehird> and in case you think that's contradictory:
22:11:36 <ehird> AnMaster: Why, chocolate is chocolate; even the foulest of chocolates is an improvement— white "chocolate", of course, not counting as chocolate— and beyond that it is up to your own tastes.
22:11:37 <GregorR-L> That's some awfully dark dark chocolate :P
22:11:41 <AnMaster> or the more common milk chocolate
22:11:53 <GregorR-L> Bittersweet chocolate means no milk, little sugar.
22:12:10 <ehird> People who strip the fat of bacon are evil agents of the End Times.
22:12:12 <AnMaster> white "chocolate" > brown chocolate
22:12:21 <GregorR-L> And white chocolate is megagarbage.
22:12:23 <AnMaster> <ehird> People who strip the fat of bacon are evil agents of the End Times. <-- I hate fat bacon
22:12:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Dude, it's just yuck without the fat.
22:12:36 <GregorR-L> And bittersweet chocolate is even better.
22:12:46 <ehird> GregorR-L: I have some 80% chocolate
22:12:47 <AnMaster> GregorR, too dark chocolate tastes foul IMO
22:12:58 <ehird> It just doesn't taste like chocolate
22:13:00 <AnMaster> GregorR, a healthy dose of sugar is needed!
22:13:03 <psygnisfive> wolfram alpha must either have some very interesting AI
22:13:05 <ehird> You can buy 100% chocolate; I would like some.
22:13:14 <GregorR-L> ehird: 100% is baker's chocolate, it's terrible.
22:13:21 <AnMaster> ehird, don't eat it. I tried it.
22:13:23 <psygnisfive> or some very VERY laboriously laid out data and query interpretation
22:13:30 <ehird> GregorR-L: Not that 100%
22:13:31 <GregorR-L> ehird: 80% is the peak for me. Beyond that it gets worse in either direction.
22:13:39 <ehird> You can buy 100% from Lindt for human consumption.
22:13:46 <ehird> Whatever, that sort of number.
22:14:03 <ehird> I hear that it's totally different to chocolate.
22:14:11 <ehird> As in, it's more a sort of spicy flavour than a chocolatey one
22:14:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> It's not awful <ehird> It just doesn't taste like chocolate
22:15:24 <AnMaster> the light brown kind of nougat
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22:17:25 <AnMaster> http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Nougat_sweets.jpg <-- that looks tastey
22:18:39 <AnMaster> ais523, and why are you surprised that I like garlic.
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22:19:21 <ais523> AnMaster: a huge preference for one particular food sounds more like oklopol or ehird than you
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22:19:36 <AnMaster> ais523, you know "autocondimentor"? From TP.
22:20:12 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm not *quite* that, but I tend to add garlic flavoured herb salt (I don't know if it is called that in English) to most meals.
22:20:39 <GregorR-L> We just say "garlic salt", but it's probably the same.
22:20:48 <AnMaster> GregorR, it has more than just garlic in it
22:21:06 <GregorR-L> There are lots of garlic salts with more than just garlic :P
22:21:11 <AnMaster> that is, unless I have fresh herbs at home here.
22:21:17 <AnMaster> GregorR, what about garlic salts without garlic
22:21:43 <AnMaster> so lets call it seasoning salt with herbs?
22:21:54 <AnMaster> btw: also black pepper if it is pasta of course
22:22:03 <AnMaster> oh and soya if it is rice or rice-like
22:22:12 <GregorR-L> I put seasoning salt on popcorn. It's yummy.
22:22:40 * GregorR-L grounds garlic into psygnisfive's very SOUL
22:22:46 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I had some raw garlic just half an hour ago. Was very nice
22:24:15 <psygnisfive> anmaster: 1 head of garlic, minus the easily removed outer skin. cut the tips of the cloves off and coat lightly with olive oil. sprinkle on to it oregano, wrap in tin foil, and bake for 45 minutes to an hour at 400 degrees.
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22:25:38 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, plus, I don't have any more fresh garlic at home.
22:25:39 <psygnisfive> you turn the garlic upside down and squeeze and the cloves slide right out of the skin
22:26:14 <psygnisfive> if you cooked it long enough for the cloves to be REALLY soft, theyre sort of squish out, but either way, the oil is mostly on the skin anyway.
22:26:27 <psygnisfive> its there to like... conduct heat, or something, really.
22:26:41 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> the garlic comes out soft and sweet <-- garlic shouldn't be sweet. If I wanted sweet I would go for sugar
22:26:43 <psygnisfive> and you dont cover the whole thing in oil, its just mostly the top bits
22:27:25 <psygnisfive> its pretty simple.im sure you can get close by just baking a whole head of garlic
22:27:50 <psygnisfive> you jsut have to cut off the tops of the cloves before you do, otherwise itll be impossible to get the garlic out
22:28:08 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, I only have dried garlic at home currently
22:28:51 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, Um. It should be up next week (green house)
22:29:26 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, you "grow" food when possible. Not "buy" it.
22:29:37 <AnMaster> better for the environment. Less transports.
22:29:46 <psygnisfive> well, sure, but you cant "grow" yourself some garlic to cook today, can you?
22:30:03 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, no. Because it is half an hour to midnight. All shops are closed too.
22:30:30 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and what is lame.
22:30:40 <psygnisfive> your grocery stores not being open 24 hours
22:30:58 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and you said bake for 45 minutes. By that time it won't be today any more
22:31:24 <psygnisfive> do not make me bust out the lexical semantics on you.
22:32:00 <AnMaster> plus I could just /ignore you if it was too annoying linqustics stuff
22:32:08 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and why should shops be open 24h
22:32:22 <psygnisfive> anmaster: because then you could go get garlic!
22:32:56 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, that is a major stress causing factor for those who work there. It is better for humans to be awake during day than night. Various biological reasons for it.
22:33:07 <AnMaster> Slereah, that meme is way way way outdated.
22:33:36 <psygnisfive> or to the 50% of the population that is biologically predisposed to being awake at night
22:33:46 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, And I have garlic flavoured bread at home.
22:35:07 <psygnisfive> or maybe a garlic hoare, given the company i keep here
22:36:08 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to CARHoare.
22:36:17 <CARHoare> who cares about garlic, look at this medal i have! http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/people/thoare/tony2.jpg
22:36:21 -!- CARHoare has changed nick to psygnisfive.
22:37:42 <AnMaster> that name doesn't mean anything to me though
22:38:21 <AnMaster> psygnisfive, and what has that got do with you
22:38:33 <FireFly> In such cases, one uses wiki, not google
22:38:37 <AnMaster> <psygnisfive> or maybe a garlic hoare, given the company i keep here
22:38:48 <psygnisfive> then i made a pun based on the name "hoare", which is said the same as "whore"
22:39:18 <FireFly> "C.A.R. Hoare, is a British computer scientist, probably best known for the development in 1960 of Quicksort (or Hoaresort)"
22:40:06 <fizzie> I assume we're not calling it "Hoaresort" nowadays due to the pronunciation-based misambiguatities.
22:45:56 <ehird> 22:29 AnMaster: better for the environment. Less transports. ← yeah walking is like the devil
22:45:58 <ehird> 22:32 AnMaster: psygnisfive, that is a major stress causing factor for those who work there. It is better for humans to be awake during day than night. Various biological reasons for it.
22:46:01 <ehird> you're full of shit
22:46:28 <ehird> psygnisfive: try dealing with him on a daily basis before saying that :)
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22:50:49 <AnMaster> ehird, um... How do you think it got to the store
22:51:13 <ehird> AnMaster: guess what? it's in the store whether you buy it or not
22:51:29 <ehird> unless you think that you, as a tiny meaningless statistical factor, could cause pressure to ship more garlic in any meaningful way
22:51:39 <ehird> which is ridiculously egotistical
22:51:59 <AnMaster> ehird, don't vote. you are a tiny meaningless statistical factor. What you vote for won't change anything,
22:52:41 <ehird> AnMaster: You've brought up that bullshit before.
22:52:44 <ehird> I've rebutted it before.
22:52:51 <AnMaster> ehird, it is the same concept.
22:53:14 <ehird> I'm sure it is in AnMaster-land
22:53:28 <AnMaster> and yes I think not voting is bull shit too. But I'm just extrapolating from your own opinions.
22:54:33 <ehird> …where by "extrapolating" you mean "making shit up".
22:54:47 <ais523> I've done things to affect statistics before
22:54:49 <ehird> And asserting things
22:55:13 <AnMaster> ais523, And I try to tell other people about it, so they do the same thing.
22:55:24 <AnMaster> Plus of course home grown tends to taste better.
22:55:34 <ais523> you grow your own garlic?
22:56:02 <AnMaster> ais523, not as much me as having a mom how is a gardening geek.
22:56:02 <ehird> ais523: as far as I can tell, he views going to a store as a blot on his very soul
22:56:27 <AnMaster> but yes I tend to prefer home grown and home made food
22:56:28 <ais523> in that case, why does he think he has a statistical effect on the store
22:56:31 <ais523> because he doesn't go there?
22:57:37 <AnMaster> less artificial flavour from flavour enhancers and so on...
22:57:54 <ehird> ais523: by consciously thinking about not going to the store, he telepathically is "not there", as a positive instead of just not "there"
22:58:08 <ehird> thus influencing statisticsa
22:58:15 <AnMaster> ehird, what the hell do you mean.
22:58:25 <ehird> AnMaster: it's what I'd like to know myself!
22:58:43 <ehird> AnMaster: By the way, it's "bullshit"
22:58:47 <ais523> ehird: well, I've refused to buy things because they're too expensive before
22:58:56 <AnMaster> ehird, sounds like you are trying a straw man argument...
22:58:58 <ehird> ais523: I don't see how that's relevant
22:59:02 <ais523> normally I spend the money at a competitor of the people who were charging too much
22:59:10 <ehird> AnMaster: it's what you call "extrapolating from your behaviour"
22:59:13 <ais523> so that probably does put some sort of small pressure on
22:59:26 <ehird> which is, yes, a strawman argument
22:59:39 <AnMaster> ehird, then in your case you couldn't explain the difference though.
22:59:52 <ehird> you haven't explained the difference yourself
23:00:09 <ais523> hmm... it seems Norway are getting a runaway win on Eurovision
23:00:13 <ais523> with the largest score ever
23:00:15 <ehird> "extrapolating from your behaviour" voodoo jumps to conclusions VS strawman
23:00:23 <ehird> ais523: what did you do wrong?
23:00:33 <AnMaster> ais523, why are you watching eurovision?
23:00:34 <ehird> (I'm trying to figure out what you're being punished for)
23:00:42 <ehird> AnMaster: I said that far more classily :|
23:01:01 <ais523> oh, I find modern music so bad anyway that Eurovision isn't any worse by comparison
23:01:08 <AnMaster> ehird, seems we agree on something for once. That ais523 disagree with us on
23:01:17 <ehird> ais523: oh, I don't know
23:01:22 <ais523> only it was incredibly bad this year
23:01:24 <ais523> as in, even worse than normal
23:01:32 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the Swedish one
23:01:38 <ais523> as an example of just how bad the competition is, the UK are curretnly fourth
23:01:40 <ehird> ais523: if pop is like a plastic facade of music, eurovision is like the silicone version
23:01:42 <ais523> and Sweden's fourth-last
23:02:04 <AnMaster> ais523, I actually thought the Swedish one was good when I heard it on radio recently
23:02:19 <ehird> ais523: No more 'Wolfram|Alpha isn't sure what to do with your input'. Wolfram|Beta knows the answer to ALL your questions!
23:02:24 <ehird> ais523: http://www.wolframsbeta.com/
23:02:31 <AnMaster> the performer is in fact a opera singer for her day-to-day job
23:02:36 <ais523> before I click on that, what is it?
23:02:45 <ehird> ais523: it's like Wolfram|Alpha, except it knows the answer to everything
23:02:51 <ehird> (no shock sites or anything.)
23:02:53 <ais523> does it always answer 42?
23:03:10 <ehird> ais523: well, it also asks its mom for washing, and reads 4chan, while calculating 42
23:03:24 <ehird> it's sort of like the nutri-matic machine, except the thing it always gives is better than the truth
23:03:44 <ehird> ais523: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8kz97/no_more_wolframalpha_isnt_sure_what_to_do_with/c09mbiq
23:03:50 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, I was just giving a sample
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23:04:03 <AnMaster> <script type="text/javascript">
23:04:03 <AnMaster> var gaJsHost = (("https:" == document.location.protocol) ? "https://ssl." : "http://www.");
23:04:03 <AnMaster> document.write(unescape("%3Cscript src='" + gaJsHost + "google-analytics.com/ga.js' type='text/javascript'%3E%3C/script%3E"));
23:04:11 <ehird> AnMaster: google analytics, what's your point
23:04:12 <AnMaster> why do you see that in almost every page
23:04:19 <ais523> ehird: you should post Alpha's terms-of-use contract to reddit
23:04:22 <ehird> AnMaster: it collates browser statistics etc
23:04:26 <ais523> with a suitably scary headline
23:04:31 <ehird> AnMaster: for graphing and stuff by the webmaster
23:04:32 <AnMaster> ehird, ok, and why do you want to give that to google
23:04:40 <ehird> AnMaster: google doesn't read it
23:04:42 <ehird> the site owner does
23:04:43 <AnMaster> rather than just use webalizer or analog or whatever
23:04:53 <ehird> because that requires a web server setup, has a klunky UI, ..
23:05:04 <ehird> AnMaster: it's no more dangerous information than a logfile
23:05:15 <ehird> browsers don't go around giving just anyone important info...
23:05:28 <AnMaster> ehird, All web pages "requires a web server setup".
23:05:36 <ehird> AnMaster: you're a retard.
23:05:41 <ehird> try and set up webalizer sometime
23:05:44 <ehird> then set up google analytics
23:06:03 <ehird> protip: google analytics consists of pressing a button and adding it to the bottom of your footer template
23:06:12 <ehird> as a bonus, it has a better UI
23:06:28 <AnMaster> ehird, but it will only work if the client has javascript turned on
23:06:40 <ehird> AnMaster: guess what almost every web browser in the modern world has turned on?
23:07:02 <ehird> yes, I know you use Noscript. Yes, you too, oh, and you!
23:07:06 <ehird> So that's about 0%
23:07:16 <ais523> actually, javascript-off use is increasing a lot
23:07:18 <AnMaster> sure. But you underestimate how popular extensions like noscript is
23:07:27 <ais523> and remember, crawlers scrape without javascript
23:07:33 <ais523> I'd say that's a bigger factor than javascript
23:07:39 <ehird> ais523: To about 0.5%, perhaps. And that's okay, because analytics don't matter for crawlers.
23:07:46 <ehird> It's to measure what humans are visiting your site.
23:07:59 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm interested to see if I have been crawled too
23:08:08 <ais523> well, I deliberately block analytics scripts
23:08:13 <ehird> AnMaster: you still have logfiles
23:08:15 <ais523> even more so than the general blocking of JS
23:08:25 <fizzie> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp says 5 % off.
23:08:28 <ehird> ais523: unfortunately you cannot block apache/access.log
23:08:30 <ais523> as in, I never let them in even when I unblock a site, and I have NoScript set to put them in a separate menu
23:08:31 <ehird> fizzie: that's w3schools
23:08:34 <ehird> fizzie: guess who their audience is?
23:08:35 <ais523> I don't mind access.log
23:08:44 <ehird> AnMaster: it's meaningless
23:08:48 <AnMaster> ehird, and. What audience do you think I have.
23:08:51 <ehird> w3schools has reported firefox as wildly popular since forever
23:08:52 <ais523> it's third-party analytics scripts that annoy me, why don't they just use their server logs?
23:08:57 <ehird> AnMaster: so don't bloody use it
23:09:08 <ehird> AnMaster: reddit requires javascript, it has a bunch of technical people
23:09:16 <ehird> how many people do you think it's lost due to requiring JS everywhere?
23:09:21 <ehird> i'd say a few thousand
23:09:21 <AnMaster> <ais523> it's third-party analytics scripts that annoy me, why don't they just use their server logs? <-- that is what I'm arguing for too!
23:09:30 <ehird> ais523: because these give more detail?
23:09:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I turn it on for those sites I'm interested in.
23:09:41 <ais523> well, I don't like them trying to track me across sites easily
23:09:54 <ehird> ais523: that's okay because they can't.
23:10:04 <ehird> I wonder why I argue with the two people who never change their minds
23:10:08 <ehird> I must be fucking bonkers
23:10:14 <ais523> I change my mind about some things
23:10:23 <ais523> also, I agree with ehird sometimes, and AnMaster sometimes
23:10:35 <ehird> it's rare enough that angels go by my window singing a heavenly song everytime it happens
23:10:54 <fizzie> Okay, thecounter.com statistics (which shouldn't be *that* technically-oriented) for April 2009 is 6% no-Javascript: http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2009/April/javas.php
23:10:57 <AnMaster> wolframbeta: What is the question to life, universe and everything? <WB> 42
23:11:16 <ehird> AnMaster: it cannot possibly be wrong
23:11:32 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, the universe would have ended if it was right!
23:11:48 <ehird> i mean wolframbeta
23:12:06 <AnMaster> <ehird> I wonder why I argue with the two people who never change their minds
23:12:19 <ehird> 23:12 AnMaster: <ehird> I wonder why I argue with the two people who never change their minds
23:12:25 <AnMaster> I wonder why I argue with the one person who never change his mind
23:12:34 <ehird> AnMaster: you never change your grammar either
23:12:54 <AnMaster> ehird, and what does that have to do with this
23:13:50 <AnMaster> interesting name for a movement: "Andante di molto - Allegro"
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