00:20:24 -!- coppro has joined. 00:22:31 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:34:48 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:03:47 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 01:05:59 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 01:07:04 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:21:15 -!- Patashu has joined. 01:27:07 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:02:44 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:08:28 -!- sebbu has joined. 02:23:05 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:56:20 -!- coppro has joined. 03:01:57 -!- calamari has joined. 03:04:38 -!- Corun has quit. 03:10:55 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:21:30 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:01:32 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:07:52 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 04:09:42 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 04:16:57 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:55:03 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:02:21 So, in theory, Unicode works. 05:03:00 «¡The composé key works!» 05:03:29 Amazing what having your local set right can do. 05:03:39 indeed 05:18:34 Locale, even. 05:21:34 Unicode, I declare, is a great boon. What sayeþ ye, men and women and small fuzzy creatures, of all þat is Esolang? 05:30:32 Υεα 05:42:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:00:41 unicode is evil 06:00:44 ascii forever 06:03:11 ɹәʌәu 07:07:14 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:10:20 unicode 4ever 07:10:47 .. 07:10:55 -!- FireFly has quit (Client Quit). 07:14:24 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:20:33 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:30:39 -!- olsner has joined. 07:44:27 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:49:23 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:25:39 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 09:52:38 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 09:58:07 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:02:04 -!- impomatic has joined. 10:08:37 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:12:31 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 10:20:34 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:22:21 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:25:18 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:36:38 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:12:00 -!- jix has joined. 12:12:04 -!- lereah_ has joined. 12:13:24 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:28:09 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:50:20 -!- MizardX has quit ("What are you sinking about?"). 13:04:07 -!- MizardX has joined. 13:05:16 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 13:05:49 http://may.2chan.net/27/res/117551.htm 13:05:53 King of threads 13:06:15 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:30:01 -!- Corun has joined. 13:56:41 -!- Slereah has joined. 14:03:00 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:17:20 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:34:47 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:40:32 -!- Slereah has joined. 15:07:27 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 15:07:46 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:22:52 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:39:29 -!- lereah_ has quit ("Leaving"). 15:42:04 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:42:20 Hi :-) 15:43:49 hi 15:43:59 * ais523 grumbles at the hill still apparently being upside-down 15:44:33 hill? 15:44:46 Patashu: BF Joust 15:44:51 thought so 15:44:54 what's wrong with it? 15:44:57 there was meant to be a tournament running here 15:45:04 but the current code eliminates all the good programs 15:45:06 rather than all the bad ones 15:45:11 haha 15:45:16 flip a < to a >? ;) 15:45:33 well, suicide, the worst BF Joust program theoretically possible, is still there 15:45:49 it loses every game, unless the opponent uses the same strategy, in which case it's a draw 15:46:17 -!- Slereah has joined. 15:46:28 do you have control over the code or is it someone else's bungle? 15:46:57 it's in GregorR (or GregorR-L) 's code 15:49:07 I've seen someone get a KOTH upside down before so it must be pretty easy to do :-) 15:49:25 well, something as simple as a reversed test could to it 15:49:28 Hopefully it'll be fixed soon. I assume the hill will then run forever? 15:49:49 but in this case it's the fact that an array's the other way round to what GregorR thinks 15:49:53 are there any 'program vs program' languages besides corewar, fukyourbrane and BF joust? 15:49:54 and yes, probably for ages, anyway 15:50:00 after all, the hill is still up 15:50:08 Patashu: quite a few, I think; but only corewar is really popular 15:50:27 I have to agree about BF joust with other people who've noted there's only one way to go about winning 15:50:32 not any more 15:50:40 the revised version, there are at least three strategies 15:50:50 oh? 15:50:58 I've done quite well with defence programs, which wait to be attacked then try to trick the opponent off the end of the tape 15:51:09 by dropping the flag to 0 for one cycle, then back up again 15:51:12 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:51:20 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success). 15:51:29 hehe 15:51:51 I think that strategy is a) one of the best, but b) very very hard to pull off well 15:52:40 I had a defensive program too before the hill was changed. I've got a copy of the 20 warriors from the old hill so I can resubmit it when the hill has been fixed. 15:52:57 any plans for more opcodes? 15:53:12 * impomatic hopes not ;-) 15:53:14 Patashu: it just wouldn't be BF then 15:53:27 zzo38 has a version with input from the opponent's NOPs, although I don't see the point 15:53:59 input from the opponent's NOPs? what does that mean 15:54:32 Patashu: well, . does output in BF 15:54:43 aah 15:54:48 There's a description on the discussion page of the BF Joust wiki page. 15:54:51 sounds a bit silly though 15:54:57 since you can simulate a NOP with <><> or whatever 15:55:03 yes 15:55:08 well, a one-cycle NOP is useful for parity reasons 15:55:20 and messing about with <> or >< or even +- can be very dangerous in BF Joust 15:55:27 due to the end of hte tape 15:55:58 it doesn't sound like a very well-founded concept in any case 15:56:00 even if it makes BF-sense 15:56:18 since you'd never WANT to tell your opponent anything 15:56:24 why make a command for it? :P 15:56:50 I needed to use a one-cycle NOP in one of my programs to get the timing right 15:58:32 maybe , could get the value of your opponent's pointer or the value under your opponent's pointer or something 15:58:45 hmm 15:58:57 impomatic: same here 15:59:02 attack5 uses quite a lot of them 15:59:09 it's a counter-defence attack program 15:59:23 although it can confuse about half of genuine attack programs by setting decoy cells to -6 15:59:27 which they aren't expecting 16:00:59 Patashu: see http://aiforge.net for a programming games forum and about 1500 links. 16:01:16 oh yeah 16:01:18 fighting programmable robot games 16:01:53 http://www.sumost.ca/steve/games is also a decent page 16:02:41 There are a few which don't involve robots, but most of the ones I've looked at are similar to Corewar 16:21:53 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com ."). 16:22:31 impomatic: corewar question: how effective is using SPL 0, rather than a goto, to create a loop? 16:30:01 If you have a SPL 0 at the head of the loop and let the processes drop off the end, the loop will be 1 cycle slower. 16:30:10 Processes take 1 cycle to execute the DAT which kills them. 16:31:21 if you're planning to spawn a load of processes anyway, though, it might be worth it 16:31:37 However, the loop can only be killed by destroying the SPL. Damaging any other instruction won't kill the loop, just damage it. 16:31:50 It's best to have a SPL 0 at the top and a JMP at the end :-) 16:32:00 ah, aha 16:32:27 I was vaguely thinking of setting up some sort of huge number of imp spirals 16:32:41 hitting thread limit, so that anti-paper strategies wouldn't work 16:32:47 and hoping that at least one survived to overwrite the opponent 16:32:49 But occasionally the instructions are out of sync, but it doesn't really matter. Also it means the loop reverse! 16:34:06 It takes ages to hit the process limit. It's normally 8000 processes. 16:34:12 ah 16:34:16 I thought it varied by hill 16:34:20 An opponent can clear the core in that time. 16:34:32 but at least, churning out your own threads will reduce the impact of a SPL-based bomb 16:34:54 and an imp spiral swarm would tend to intrinsically dodge core-clears 16:35:01 2/3 chance it misses once you're down to one imp 16:35:25 * ais523 wonders what warriors do after the core-clear ends 16:35:40 max processes is normally the same as coresize, the the same applies to the other hills, e.g. nano hill = 80 cells, 80 cycles to clear it with d-clear, 80 maxprocesses. 16:36:13 They just keep clearing over and over, just in case they missed a mobile warrior first time round. 16:36:21 By the way, the #corewars channel has moved to freenode :-) 16:36:31 so, is it corewar or corewars? 16:36:42 Unfortunately koth.org is closing down :-( 16:37:06 The official name of the game is Core War. 16:37:36 Corewar is more common though. 16:43:33 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 16:44:06 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes. 16:49:46 I return. 16:49:56 ehird: ISIDTID? 16:50:20 ais523: "I disappear yesterday therefore I return." 16:50:27 well, yes 16:50:32 it all depends on what returning means 16:50:51 Existing. 16:50:52 Being/ 16:50:54 In here. 16:53:53 * ais523 moans at the upside-down hill 16:56:46 -!- OoS has joined. 17:06:38 Hey, where'd my server go? 17:06:59 Looks like all of Slicehost is unusually sequestered. 17:07:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:07:00 kerlo: well, I can log into it 17:07:02 if it's the one I think 17:07:07 I'm online there right now 17:07:25 Can you get a login prompt at s2.normish.org? I can't. 17:07:29 ouch 17:07:35 Well, now I can. Never mind. 17:07:41 strong static discharge from my chair! 17:07:43 :/ 17:08:08 hi ais523 17:08:12 -!- MizardX has quit ("from __future__ import skynet"). 17:08:31 hi AnMaster 17:08:57 * kerlo successfully remembers half of his password. 17:09:09 lot of static discharges here today... Strange. 17:09:14 kerlo: do you want me to change your password, using my scammed root powers? 17:09:15 from anything in metal at all. 17:09:35 ais523: you have scammed root powers on s2.normish.org? 17:09:45 anyone has any idea for a reason? 17:09:47 oh, probably not s2 17:09:50 if it's a different server 17:09:53 just on the main normish.org 17:10:13 So kerlo's now paying $50/month so that he can develop a new normish separately on the live deployment environment? 17:10:20 Yep. 17:10:26 You mean like what I wanted to do originally, and was faced with "WHY DON'T YOU JUST DEVELOP IT LOCALLY FOO" 17:10:31 Hmmmmmmmmmmm. 17:10:37 I suspect the "new normish" isn't actually a nomic 17:10:46 Not yet, anyway. 17:10:48 otherwise there'd be no point 17:10:52 Indeed. 17:11:05 ehird, why not develop it locally? It is a good point IMO. 17:11:21 well, I developed the old system locally 17:11:25 and it even works, sort of 17:11:25 AnMaster: I was pointing out some hypocrisy, and I'm not exactly in a mood to go into Talk To AnMaster Very Carefully And Slowly mode. 17:11:47 AnMaster: this is an old flamewar lasting weeks from several months ago 17:11:48 ais523: I've been watching kerlo ask things like how to avoid SQL injection with a PHP registration system in Sine. Cringeworthy that he administrates Normish >_< 17:11:49 so you're missing contest 17:11:53 ais523, ah... 17:11:57 *context 17:11:57 not exactly flamewar 17:12:05 well, it did cause me to shun you for weeks 17:12:07 more strong disagreement with additional fire :) 17:12:09 which is rather out of character for me 17:12:27 At least I now know how to avoid SQL injection, I think. :-P 17:13:01 Next up: How to escape HTML! With ASP.NET -or- ColdFusion -or- PHP! 17:13:06 yes, bad-but-works way = proper escaping, good-and-works-better-and-is-easier-way = parameterized or stored queries 17:13:07 10 Best Javascript Libraries 17:13:18 50 Ways To Monitor Your Site's Uptime!!!! 17:13:28 * ehird vomits all over the blagosphere 17:13:41 Parameterized queries. Sounds nice. 17:14:19 ais523: he's using PHP and uses Windows, I'm pretty sure you're wasting your time :) 17:14:29 I'm pretty sure even PHP can do that 17:14:36 it can 17:14:51 I'm just pointing out that maybe talking about reasonable best practices and clean design is better given to /dev/null 17:15:13 That sounds likely. 17:15:43 i'm staying on Actual Normish, which at least has proper unix tools instead of PHP/MySQL user registration forms. 17:16:23 Hey, I'm planning to have proper Unix tools as well. 17:16:40 kerlo: The user database is in MySQL, is it not? 17:16:49 Therefore, not Unix accounts. Therefore, no, no you're not. 17:17:28 Is there some magical force preventing me from having each user in the database have a linked Unix account? 17:17:43 * ehird puts his head through a wrangler to forget what you just said 17:18:09 * pikhq tries to unhear things. Unsuccesfully. 17:18:13 actually, the correct way to do that would be to write a mysql backend that stores data in /etc/passwd 17:18:26 That sounds kind of weird. 17:18:30 ais523: That is correct for values of "DEAR GOD KILL ME". 17:18:39 pikhq: We're doomed. 17:18:48 I'm making an underground bunker 17:19:23 ehird: I was trying to think up the sanest way to achieve what kerlo wanted; the fact that it's insane implies the original request was insane 17:19:44 I blame youth. 17:19:55 maybe we could clone the internet, put kerlo in it, wait 3 years, then destroy the cloned internet and let him on the real one 17:19:58 it's our only hope 17:20:23 ehird: err, why? 17:20:35 ais523: The sanest way involves a PAM module. 17:20:50 ais523: the very existence of this insane "Normish s2" may collapse the whole internet 17:20:52 err, that reads a MySQL database? 17:20:56 or at least severely damage it 17:21:11 -!- impomatic has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:21:37 Not saying it's very sane, mind. 17:22:03 -!- OoS has changed nick to impomatic. 17:22:06 pikhq: I don't think PAM's tied into the UNIX UID system for files 17:22:32 as in, creating MySQL table rows wouldn't magically create users for any purpose other than logging in 17:23:24 Okay, people who are significantly intelligent and/or knowledgeable than me. Suppose I want people to have Unix accounts and I also want to track various bits of information about those people. 17:23:40 Is creating the accounts and then using YAML that references their usernames the best way to accomplish that? 17:23:50 No. 17:23:53 Use proper files, dammit. 17:23:57 -!- impomatic has left (?). 17:24:04 Real, unix, plain text, lightweight-format FILES. 17:24:36 Is MySQL useful for its intended purpose? If so, perhaps I've forgotten what that purpose is. 17:24:48 To be a bad version of PostgreSQL. 17:24:57 PostgreSQL is a program whose purpose is not to be used as a replacement for plaintext files. 17:25:07 What is its purpose, then? 17:25:31 Correct me if I'm wrong, 17:25:33 but I just told you 17:26:36 kerlo: MySQL is the C of databases 17:26:42 No. 17:26:43 you have to do everything by hand, but it can be very efficient as a result 17:26:47 No, that's an utterly terrible comparison. 17:26:51 really? 17:26:57 It's nothing like C. 17:26:59 The sentence "PostgreQSL is a program whose purpose is not . . ." does not tell me what its purpose is. 17:27:03 maybe it's the C++ of databases, as it also has a lot of useless features 17:27:08 kerlo: whose purpose is (not ...) 17:27:21 Definitely the C++ of databases. 17:27:30 It does a lot of stuff, and does it poorly. 17:27:44 The thing about sarcastic statements is that they're not very useful when interpreted as the truth. 17:27:46 ais523: C's lean, mean, efficient, it has a clean design, and does what it does completely well. MySQL has its legs the wrong way round. It's not even really fast. It tries to do things and does them all badly. It's built on top of a bad design. 17:27:52 It keeps trying to do more things, and it keeps failing at them. 17:27:56 Just... no. 17:29:01 ehird, I suppose you're the kind of person who would stop using a system if new features were added and those features sucked. 17:29:37 I suppose you, kerlo, are the kind of person who will jump to conclusions without basis and then state these matter-of-factly in a deliciously non-sequitur manner. 17:29:54 Call me crazy, but. 17:30:48 That may be true, but I'm just saying that to pacify you, not because I really believe it, not that I don't believe that I believe it. 17:30:51 MySQL does most everything it does poorly. 17:35:31 Well, I refuse to use a database system whose name contains four consonants in a row. 17:35:52 kerlo: "unix" does not have four consonants in a row. 17:36:12 And now for something not blatantly false: 17:36:39 Would you (collectively) recommend switching to PostgreSQL, then? 17:36:48 No. 17:36:55 I would recommend using Unix properly, dammit. 17:37:51 So, suppose hypothetically that I want to store people's usernames and passwords. 17:38:02 You would use proper Unix accounts. 17:38:14 Okay, suppose I do that. 17:38:22 And you wouldn't store their passwords, you'd store the hash of their passwords. 17:38:31 pikhq: One step at a time. 17:38:37 That's precisely why I said "hypothetically". 17:38:39 Think "talk to a three year old". 17:38:59 Hmm. 17:39:59 -!- M0ny has joined. 17:40:24 Also, use PAM for authentication of these accounts, not manually wrangling /etc/passwd like I just forsighted you doing. Yes, that means a dumbed-down web interface to the Unix tools you have will be a pain to implement due to PAM not being that easy to automate. That's a feature. 17:40:33 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success). 17:42:27 actually, you store the password hashes in a different file, so you can make most of the user database user-visible, but not the password hashes 17:42:51 ais523: Unix. Accounts. 17:43:02 ehird: yes 17:43:05 /etc/shadw 17:43:16 Yes. I know. That's not kerlo's concern. 17:43:20 There are tools that handle that. 17:44:04 "Nanotechnology discoveries: Disks that can store 10000 times more data than a DVD and that can outlive stone inscriptions!" 17:44:08 FUCK YEAH NANOTECHNOLOGY 17:44:39 "They've further increased the storage density to 1.1 terabytes per cubic centimeter" 17:44:46 not bad 17:44:48 "In a paper published online today in the journal Nature, Gu's group reports recording speeds of about a gigabit per second." 17:44:59 1Gbit/sec writing to media with 1.1TB/cm2. 17:45:02 Want. Now. 17:45:12 I wonder what its rewrite is like? 17:45:21 although something like that would be amazing even in write-once form 17:45:25 maybe it's write-once, yeah 17:46:02 outliving stone inscriptions too 17:46:04 is pretty damn awesome 17:46:11 ais523: see, THIS is the ideal backup media 17:46:11 :) 17:46:19 ehird: 1.1TB/cm³ is pretty spiffy. :) 17:46:26 pikhq: er, ^3 yeah not 2. 17:46:53 You can't mess up your backups, you can store all your backups for forever with only a few discs, and backups are instant (assuming sufficiently fast source media) 17:46:59 hmm... that would be over a petabyte per litre 17:47:03 and storing a litre isn't that hard 17:47:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:47:17 yep 17:47:29 ehird: no way! 17:47:30 Imagine the bandwidth of a station wagon hurtling down the road with one of this things. 17:47:38 * pikhq waves at Örjan 17:47:42 oerjan: been logreading, or just an out-of-content reply? 17:47:48 ais523: the latter :D 17:47:52 pikhq: I wonder how many library of congresses per disc it'd be? 17:47:54 *out-of-context reply 17:48:06 ais523: well both 17:48:11 pikhq: Ørjan 17:48:22 umm guys 17:48:28 ais523: pikhq: 1Gbit/sec = 128MB/sec 17:48:32 ok, that's rather less impressive 17:48:43 ehird: oh, giga/bit/s 17:48:47 how cheating of them 17:49:00 ais523: well, it's what internet connections use 17:49:09 maybe CDs/DVDs/Blu-Ray are measured in that too 17:50:16 So, suppose we let our users log in via the web. If I'm not mistaken, the chief non-weird way to do this is cookies. Would these cookies contain the users' passwords? 17:50:32 kerlo: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARFGH 17:50:37 Stop coding stop coding stop coding 17:51:08 Forever? 17:51:17 Give or take a day 17:51:21 kerlo: no, and i can say that without even having read the answer. what about session ID? 17:51:32 "No" is the answer I expected. 17:51:40 kerlo: not cookies. 17:51:47 Sessions. If you don't know what they are, stop coding some more. 17:51:53 kerlo: cookies generally contain autogenerated nonsense that's used to identify a session 17:51:58 and the session is used for everything else 17:52:04 ais523: just tell him to use PHP sessions 17:52:09 ah, good point 17:52:16 we can't save him, but we can edge him in a sort of right direction to avoid unspeakable disaster 17:52:20 then you don't have to worry about how they're implemented (even though they're normally implemented with cookies) 17:52:30 OTOH, isn't PHP open to session fixation unless you take steps against it? 17:52:38 Don't think so. 17:52:50 My current strategy is attempting to make him outsource as much code as possible to Unix and his language. Less dangerous :) 17:53:14 * kerlo reads about sessions. 17:53:16 ais523: argh, "One discovery can store way more than a DVD, and the other has a long lifetime. Furthermore, the first one is write-only, and I don't see indications of mass storage for the second." 17:53:19 ais523: so two separate things 17:53:36 ok 17:53:41 and Slashdot lying as usual? 17:53:57 The blog title lying to get sensationalist hits 17:54:06 and the reddit submitter— bet it's the author of the blogspam— using the same title 17:54:23 at least slashdot clarifies its sensationalism in the summaries 17:55:03 ehird: wait, write-only? you mean it _cannot_ be read again? :D 17:55:09 heh 17:55:17 oerjan: http://www.supersimplestorageservice.com/ 17:55:18 S4! 17:55:21 Write-only storage! 17:55:26 Super-secure! Competitive pricing! 17:55:33 C L O U D 17:55:42 write-only? 17:55:45 ais523: Yes! 17:55:48 It's provably secure. 17:55:50 err, how can you prove they're storing at all? 17:55:57 Would they LIE to you 17:55:58 ? 17:56:15 argh, that website has one of the most annoying JS advertising sidebars I've ever seen 17:56:17 ais523: Here's their proof: http://www.supersimplestorageservice.com/secure/s4/pipeline/cache/throughput/proof.aspx 17:56:21 * ais523 opens in Firefox instead 17:56:32 ((read carefully)) 17:56:36 now I know why I have JS off by default 17:57:18 ehird: oh it's a joke, must be 17:57:22 it doesn't look /quite/ like a genuine IIS formatting page 17:57:23 Should I ask how to store little bits of information associated with each user another time? 17:57:27 *error page 17:57:30 formatting-wise, I mean 17:57:46 ais523: yes, they don't usually reference watching (a) the game, (b) cute kitten videos or (c) female mud wrestling 17:57:50 or people starving in China 17:58:01 ehird: it's not the text I'm talking about 17:58:04 which is obviously different 17:58:06 i know :p 17:58:59 17:57 oerjan: ehird: oh it's a joke, must be 17:59:04 oerjan: very AnMaster of you 17:59:08 "All complaints and feature requests will be immediately stored using our S4-backed user request database." :D 17:59:11 what? 17:59:43 ehird: i _was_ trying to stretch my mind for a moment thinking of any way it could not be a joke 17:59:44 ehird, when is that quote from? 17:59:55 AnMaster: almost every time you're mentioned, ever 17:59:58 or where you impersonating again... 18:00:02 also, Amazon allow PUT requests? 18:00:12 that's one interesting piece of information to come out from that site, if it's true 18:00:14 ehird, just see above for a counter example 18:00:16 I thought PUT requests were dead 18:00:21 yes, I was nefariously POSING AS YOU, AnMaster 18:00:30 And making you FORGET WHAT "ALMOST" MEANS 18:00:39 ais523: nah, REST is popular nowadays 18:00:40 ehird, I think we need secure tripecodes! ~ 18:00:40 which is nice 18:00:44 ehird: i mean, _backup_ is sort of write-only in the short term. but it's not anything new so... 18:00:47 ehird: but nothing supports PUT 18:00:47 (or whatever the spelling was) 18:00:54 ais523: sure it does 18:01:22 [[Micheal Lynton, the guy who said 'I'm a guy who doesn't see anything good having come from the Internet. Period.' has posted an editorial at the Huffington Post titled Guardrails for the Internet, in which he defends his comment, and suggests that just as the interstate system needs guardrails, so too does the information superhighway.]] 18:01:28 * ehird cries 18:01:30 haha: https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_flow&SESSION=g--DKTemd4TMMMq8aU4EeABuqWILa_aMmkQbyhwzrxbrHtx8tmKmlH7irWC&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1f998ca054efbdf2c29878a435fe324eec2511727fbf3e9efc 18:01:32 ehird, isn't PUT used in webdav iirc 18:01:37 or maybe I misremember 18:01:38 they have a genuine paypal link to buy the entire company 18:01:40 AnMaster: ais523:, you mean 18:01:44 err 18:01:44 yeahg 18:01:46 yeah* 18:01:47 ais523: that link doesn't work, it's user-specific 18:01:48 ais523: but yes 18:01:54 ehird: but I don't have a paypal account 18:01:59 so would it not work for me either? 18:02:02 ais523: session 18:02:05 ok 18:02:06 user as in person 18:02:08 as in agent 18:02:13 ais523: the author said that he'd probably refund any actual transactions :-P 18:02:17 ais523, which company 18:02:19 so why can't you steal my session by following the link? IP-based? 18:02:24 thus demonstrating he could never own the lottery 18:02:26 AnMaster: the S4 people 18:02:27 ais523: cookie-based? 18:02:38 hmm... cookies /and/ URL seems redundan 18:02:38 ais523, I'm afraid I missed who S4 were 18:02:40 *redundant 18:02:43 AnMaster: SCROLLBACK! 18:02:46 SCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKSCROLLBACKDSKJFHKSDFKSDJFS 18:02:49 ehird, no time. 18:02:57 aaaaaaaaargh 18:03:00 -!- tombom has joined. 18:03:01 so just waste OUR time instead?! 18:03:10 because clearly only -your- time is valuable 18:03:18 ehird, a short one line summary would be enough 18:03:31 Apache=147.188.254.232.327301199300722205; KHcl0EuY7AKSMgfvHl7J5E7hPtK=K1qt0zJ42nOKrHXQ512V7BuFW5fs_zXxwdkA8IlYo00HhjwGiO42drcE6jsj5EHtVawXwNuuhXfQnm49; cookie_check=yes; jNS36F3v1LVZP8Qp0a2pJWhXNKy=mpG_l1Xk9WVVMJwKZVHh_9nI392FXiTNMVIAFRlmKad9qdQtn72dqh9D_3Ksf_3nREVnPjQCIKyE4epIJ6zrmi4ZEsW; LANG=en_US%3bUS; navlns=0; cwrClyrK4LoCV1fydGbAxiNL6iG=DctYoOYqVUNLQKpmwSnWT6mVvE5ZBi3RJ8UuNQw5FdKNngFlzJV1MaUVDLge9BcQPU-SGvT- 18:03:33 dqAUo3AQzWWvZ-IHZGNfi0Z7Aw_GC2pam5X39xkdFHQI7ggSNE53QMYBSeyAJ0%7cbqkyg7YNVpHIk_tGrE-68fFnc0kX79Qa913-xSLSZPAMHlyIubz_4wrZrNk2u9vRhHOv7W%7cIMMKtMGhuMz8vkVo7mLi9UQCNkMi6CQhsTCulqkVImjKunHUWsHfINxwd7vLcmfnTR_FYm%7c1243357268; navcmd=_xclick; pNTcMTtQfrJuaJiwEnWXQ6yNxfq=5mv9RU4DctpsQ9re8jiTEh_JImwBUbicIr7FvspGKVQe8hjrwdl_RlC99UYGDLzzp3vd1gAmrIbXQqXt8oETB_fq6Ge1UBpjmfKeevJ8goC2hs5tc3KX_Ho1I6wIgIN0vjhyfY9ftf2FxLYIdIEu8bg7EBQXC- 18:03:34 TVzUYFXxJETr2tshK8PcCE4y5z5tFohs4wYca_1iIRds5Rz1VAhhu84PwLZYw_JAKatkZtmxn84zZYjC-TSp4nhXOFctIUj50m0BTwK8IVThZXxMZ-DgPVnkrX36pzZ4ZxTWdks-7k7i5p8Boqy0JoN-kIeG1qgV4uTn4ajaZP9ZNCsmGOsBCvXvC9cc68-moa-DQxi_oE_0OpF7tE; 6Vt_kuBZl8VlyHAqyfqTECtzKXS=4FmsD86w5SZMRES5DmDJOUf8i2MUEbgVvNrxy-YD1bl1DQlvynIlaY86brrCYbUQzov9tNBAz90bxc47 18:03:40 what brilliant cookies PayPal have! 18:03:47 ais523: don't do that, you'll use up all of AnMaster's scrollback 18:03:48 I only know of one S4... And that is an ACPI sleep state 18:03:51 he only has three lines, after all 18:04:07 bbl 18:05:54 * kerlo also bbls. 18:10:35 * oerjan buys baby lizards 18:10:58 oerjan: you're going to have trouble looking after them when they grow up! 18:11:22 * oerjan notes that wasn't a fact 18:11:25 ais523: but I AM right back! 18:11:43 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Success). 18:11:59 actually lizard pets are illegal in norway 18:12:04 unless they changed it 18:12:10 oerjan: do you know why? 18:12:19 They're like scaly ferrets 18:13:10 Ferrets are cute 18:13:13 ais523: norway has (almost?) no native lizards, i guess is the rationalization 18:13:17 Discuss 18:13:34 oerjan: ah, to prevent them disrupting the ecosystem? 18:13:54 ais523: maybe. there is a movement to change the law though. 18:14:07 what a fun law to challenge 18:14:10 LEGALIZE LIZARDS 18:14:31 "I will prove that anything written in a higher-level language will not be as fast as my implementation of it in C. I leave this challenge out to anyone to take. (*)" 18:14:35 Kill stupid. Kill stupid. 18:14:42 Override mode activated. Kill target sequence initiated. 18:15:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 18:17:16 ais523: actually that's probably not a real reason, as the reason we only have 5 (googled) native reptile species in norway is that it's too cold for others to survive 18:17:24 :DD 18:18:16 many think the law is stupid. but then occasionally there is a news item about someone's (illegal) snake growing too big for them... 18:18:45 int fact_table[] = { 1, 1, 2, 6, 24, 120, 720, 5040, 40320, 362880, 39916800, 479001600 }; 18:18:46 #define factorial(n) fact_table[n] 18:18:57 ↑ most efficient factorial implementation over 32-bit integers :-) 18:19:01 well, maybe a switch/case could be faster 18:19:04 ehird: true dat 18:19:25 ofc, 32-bit is useless for anything involving numbers bigger than your average pony 18:20:07 "i'm not a number, i'm a free pony!" 18:20:21 ais523: so you mentioned slashdot and I tried to read the comments of a post about lisp 18:20:35 and people called it LISP, were ignorant about how it can be faster than C in many cases, 18:20:37 so on and so forth 18:20:41 then I gave up 'cuz it's worse than reddit. 18:20:44 Slashdot is an interesting mix 18:20:45 thanks for that :P 18:20:50 you do get very interesting comments from time to time 18:20:53 but there's a lot of junk too 18:20:58 i didn't really see any gems 18:21:01 * ehird shrug 18:21:08 they're normally good at checking whether the story is true or not 18:22:14 [[The service is going to feature in a new unscripted series that will "harness Twitter to put players on the trail of celebrities in an interactive, competitive format". No, I am not sure what that means and there are no further details as yet. ]] 18:22:22 Twitter... TV... shoh god. 18:22:51 wow, that's even worse than the fictional deliberately bad reality TV program that's the centrepiece of BlogNomic at the moment 18:23:23 ais523: you have to work http://picoup.com/ into it somehow, then 18:23:30 what is that site? 18:23:39 ais523: Twitter except you only get 18 characters 18:23:44 haha 18:23:46 plus one @user for free 18:23:49 why? 18:23:56 as a joke, or as a serious attempt? 18:23:59 former 18:24:09 ais523: if 18 is too verbose for you, http://femto.picoup.com/ lets you have a character and a user reference 18:24:25 express your feelings like @user !, @user ? and @user … 18:24:31 (that's one character) 18:25:06 I like the random usernames feature 18:25:17 apparently I'm ImpulseLeast 18:25:26 how would you log on with the same name in future? 18:25:37 ais523: if you click change it (with JS), you can give it a password 18:25:43 yes 18:25:45 but I mean, without 18:25:50 but you can't use a nick that isn't either (a) automatically assigned, (b) registered 18:25:58 and I assume it doesn't generate already registered nicks 18:26:13 also, any way to follow anyone in particular there? 18:26:24 if you click a nick there's a watch link 18:26:44 hmm... well, it might catch on 18:26:57 perhaps :P 18:37:25 and storing a litre isn't that hard <-- literally trivial 18:38:51 groan 18:41:15 http://timesonline.typepad.com/technology/2009/05/new-iphone-2009-a-possible-checklist.html ← "And a pony" 18:42:38 * oerjan sees no pony and feels cheated. 18:46:50 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:47:54 ehird: Any idea how to to do an arrow with the compose key? 18:48:08 pikhq: AltGr-I gives → for me 18:48:22 ais523: I don't have no stinking AltGr. 18:48:23 pikhq: Nope, I just did it the macfag way and made a keyset file with the characters I want triggered on control-option- 18:48:32 ← = control-option-, for me (analogy with <) 18:48:55 * pikhq will have to futz with the compose configuration 18:49:09 Probably stick that on compose <- 18:49:35 … 18:49:41 ……………………… 18:50:04 ……… 18:50:10 ………………………………………… 18:55:16 http://namakajiri.net/diary/things-they-asked-me-in-the-us-visa-interview/en/ 18:58:46 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:02:46 -!- olsner has joined. 19:03:59 * ehird attempts to make a smaller typeface than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3x3 19:06:39 * ehird concludes 'tis impossible 19:08:03 3x3? Jeeze. Tiny. 19:08:24 pikhq: yeah, but somehow still readable 19:09:22 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 19:10:44 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:18:33 ais523: It does? >_O 19:18:41 GregorR-L: yes 19:18:52 because the list of programs is sorted in reverse order 19:18:54 from worst to best 19:18:59 then you eliminate all past the tenth place 19:19:15 Oh, I thought they were from best to worst! D-8 19:20:30 GregorR-L: >_< 19:20:32 WE HATE YOU :P 19:20:36 GregorR-L: Also, rewipe the hill. 19:20:40 Since it's all the worst programs now. 19:21:18 Done. 19:21:43 ais523: add impomatic_shortsword? 19:21:52 GregorR-L: oh, it'd be nice if you made it automatically prepend nickname_ to the programs 19:22:17 ehird: I don't have it on me 19:22:20 but I'll add some of mine 19:22:24 ais523: It takes a REALLY long time to timeout if the programs are unhappy :( 19:22:26 ais523: with ais523_ pls 19:22:45 !bfjoust ais523_attack5 [>[-]-.-.-.-.-.-] 19:22:46 Score for ais523_attack5: -1 (maximum 5) 19:22:59 !bfjoust ais523_defend5 >+>+([{>[(.)*20-]+}]<..........-[++[[]<(-..-.)*300>[>[-]+]]]<(+..+.)*300>[>[-]+])%2000 19:23:00 erm, isn't that in the default hill? 19:23:07 ehird: no, that was attack/defend/fool 1 19:23:10 ah 19:23:23 Score for ais523_defend5: -1 (maximum 6) 19:23:24 GregorR-L: do you think you could do that nick_ prepending thing & rename the default programs to have ais523_? 19:23:30 that plus correct in-channel score reporting = heaven 19:23:35 more or less 19:23:52 I don't think the default ones should be renamed, they're just examples, but yeah, I can add that. 19:24:06 GregorR-L: er, they're ais523's base warriors 19:24:17 seems reasonable to prepend ais523_ to me. ais523? 19:24:24 Did you mean: pimpomatic shortsword 19:24:30 ehird: well, they are mine, but they're all pretty simple 19:24:41 They're like four characters long :P 19:24:44 well, okay, it's just "attack1" vs "ais523_attack5" 19:24:46 is pretty silly 19:25:18 !bfjoust impomatic_shortsword (>++>--)*2(>)*6([-[+]]>)*20 19:25:20 Score for ais523impomatic_shortsword: -1 (maximum 7) 19:25:29 FAIL 19:25:30 lolfail 19:25:32 GregorR-L: name_ 19:25:33 not name 19:25:36 Bad timing :P 19:25:38 otherwise we'll get impomaticimpomatic 19:25:39 very 19:25:51 I had just added name, then saved, then went "Oh yeah, name_". 19:25:59 There was about a five second span in there where it had name and not name_ 19:26:07 GregorR-L: once you've done that, fix the in-channel reporter, wipe the hill and we can get on with playing 19:26:08 <_< 19:26:10 GregorR-L: could you just rename the shortsword to the correct name on the hill? 19:26:21 Or that 19:26:25 But also correct in-channel score reporting! 19:26:34 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:26:49 impomatic: good timing 19:26:53 the hill is now the right way up 19:26:57 as of about 10 minutes ago 19:27:00 * impomatic grumbles about ( ) { and } in BF Joust! 19:27:07 impomatic: in what way? 19:27:07 impomatic: wut? 19:27:15 I'm writing an interpreter in asm! 19:27:22 GregorR-L: oi, rename ais523impomatic_ to impomatic_ kay? :P 19:27:26 impomatic: those are just abbreviations, you don't have to handle htem 19:27:35 but they make programs a lot faster 19:27:43 to execute, that is, realtime 19:27:45 rather than in ticks 19:27:46 ehird: Already done. 19:27:54 GregorR-L: oh, but the report didn't regenerate 19:27:56 * pikhq grumbles about (){} 19:28:02 ehird: No :P 19:28:07 * pikhq grumbles still more about (){}(); 19:28:14 ;p 19:28:39 GregorR-L: ok, remaining wishlist, ordered by importance first: (a) correct in-channel score reporting, (b) report doesn't disappear while regenerating, (c) timeouts don't take so long 19:28:46 first two can be fixed by you, last needs ais523 probably 19:28:50 Are names automatically added to submissions now? 19:28:56 impomatic: yes 19:28:57 impomatic: Yus. 19:29:13 A) If you want the actual final score, this can't be done, or at least not quickly, it'd be slooow. 19:29:27 B) This is actually a big PITA >_> 19:29:30 !bfjoust bigdecoy >(-)*9>(+)*9>>>>>>>[(+)*6[-]>+] 19:29:40 C) This I'd love to fix, AIS :P 19:29:45 Score for ais523_bigdecoy: -3 (maximum 7) 19:29:46 Err, GregorR-L. 19:29:48 (A) is very fixable 19:29:52 It counts wins as losses. 19:29:53 !bfjoust stranger >>>>>>>>>([[-][(-)*127(+)*127]]>)*20 19:29:55 and C) by my calculationsm, reducing the timeout to 20000 from 100000 should not affect too many programs 19:29:58 Just fix that, dammit. 19:30:00 Score for impomatic_stranger: -1 (maximum 8) 19:30:02 ehird: Oh, then it's ais523's fault :P 19:30:07 GregorR-L: And how is (B) a big pitter? 19:30:10 Just don't do > 19:30:14 do >tmp; mv tmp foo 19:30:26 ehird: I kill the process generating a report when a new report starts. 19:30:41 GregorR-L: "Don't do that" 19:30:45 ais523: fix (A) and (C), anyway :P 19:30:47 X_X 19:31:02 (B) probably isn't too important, but it's irritating having this trivial bug in-channel 19:31:08 while ($steps++ < 100000) { and print "Timeout." if $steps >= 100000; are the only two lines that need changing to fix (C) 19:31:08 and the timeouts are truly annoying 19:31:11 making (B) more annoying 19:31:20 I'm fixing A. 19:31:21 for (A), the current code appears to run the program each way round and see if the answer was the same 19:31:25 rather than looking at exit status 19:31:39 ais523: Right, because that's how FYB works :P 19:31:47 hmm, wait 19:31:51 ais523: if it can report score quickly 19:31:54 how come the report takes so long 19:32:01 ehird: because it runs all the programs against each other 19:32:02 oh, because then it runs every other combination 19:32:02 right 19:32:03 even the ones you didn't just add 19:32:08 maybe that should be cached somehow 19:32:15 !bfjoust simple [>[-]+] 19:32:16 Score for impomatic_simple: -1 (maximum 9) 19:32:46 if we're in ridiculous wishlist mode, why not post a link to the report in-channel when it's finished generating? 19:33:21 ais523: I looked in to caching it and started rewriting report in Python to get non-argh SQL bindings to cache in an SQLite database. 19:33:25 Then I went "ARGH TOO LAZY" 19:33:38 ... 19:33:40 cache in a database? 19:33:42 Why‽‽‽‽‽‽ 19:33:48 Just serialize some data structures. 19:33:50 "import pickle" done 19:34:04 * ais523 wonders why bigdecoy did so badly 19:34:08 Why don't more people use interrobang‽ 19:34:18 because you're using it inappropriately when you are? 19:34:35 !bfjoust shield (>--)*3>((+)*12(>-)*4<<<<)*9999 19:34:38 Timeout. 19:34:38 Draw! 19:34:41 Timeout. 19:34:41 Draw! 19:34:43 Timeout. 19:34:43 Draw! 19:34:43 Program 2's flag fell. 19:34:43 Player 1 wins! 19:34:49 Heh, whoops, forgot to get rid of that output :P 19:34:55 Awesome. 19:35:09 * GregorR-L makes it disappear. 19:35:35 Timeout. 19:35:35 Draw! 19:35:48 OK, must kill :P 19:35:50 Program 2's flag fell. 19:35:50 Player 1 wins! 19:36:00 !bfjoust bitchesdontknowboutwhichflagismine >+[-->+] 19:36:06 Score for ehird_bitchesdontknowboutwhichflagismine: -9 (maximum 11) 19:36:11 impomatic: how does your shield program work? 19:36:26 GregorR-L: is it fixed? 19:36:29 is -9 my actual score :D 19:36:42 I believe it's fixed, yes. 19:36:53 report so slow 19:37:43 ais523: not sure how it works, I've slept since I wrote it 19:37:47 haha 19:37:57 anyway, I just had a new idea for a defence program 19:38:03 or rather, an old one, but I figured out how to make it work 19:38:50 ehird: yes, your program really did do that badly 19:38:56 aww 19:39:04 ais523: run off the tape, I guess 19:39:16 Uh, hey GregorR-L. 19:39:16 ah yes, good point 19:39:26 58.26-9ehird_bitchesdontknowboutwhichflagismine.bfjoust 19:39:26 70.00-3impomatic_shield.bfjoust 19:39:26 and why the hey, now everything's working? 19:39:32 GregorR-L: That's not good ordering, yo. 19:39:40 That's not /right/ 19:39:41 ais523: actually, it's not 19:39:42 8 | + + + + + + + + + + + | 100.0| 11| impomatic_shortsword.bfjoust 19:39:43 ehird: it's ordered by "Score" 19:39:51 which seems to be something other than wins-losses 19:39:51 his program is so good that it fucks up the tabs 19:39:57 GregorR-L: add another tab after score 19:39:59 Oh wait, yeah, it's right. 19:40:19 you could avoid tab problems by always making the score 5 characters long 19:40:26 :-) 19:40:33 ehird: I don't understand, this output is exactly the same as FYB, and FYB is always aligned >_< 19:40:53 GregorR-L: Because,. 19:40:55 Score=100.0 19:40:58 All others are one char less 19:41:02 like say 97.2 19:41:08 It's how tab characters work. 19:41:12 You need another to pad out 19:41:28 just bring all the scores up to 5 chars with padding 19:41:33 ehird: But that one is aligned to where the top is. If that one was the problem, it would be the maligned one. 19:41:35 that way you could right-align them too at the same time, for free 19:41:42 Err, misaligned :P 19:41:46 It is the misaligned one, GregorR-L. 19:41:53 But what ais523 said. 19:41:54 ehird: the title is also 5 chars 19:42:02 so actually, it's correctly aligned, everything else is misaligned 19:42:06 heh 19:42:39 I'm just saying I don't understand because the code is the same but always comes out perfect for FYB :P 19:44:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:45:34 Uh, GregorR-L. 19:45:35 http://codu.org/eso/fyb/report.txt 19:45:39 There aren't any 100.0s there. 19:45:45 So it's because no program is good enough. 19:46:03 ehird: But the 100 is the only one that's CORRECTLY aligned in bfjoust, LIKE I SAID 19:46:08 How about keeping an age for each program to keep track of how many successful challenges each one survives? 19:46:19 Then we could have a hall of fame ;-) 19:46:34 I have a mercurial log :P 19:47:49 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 19:50:11 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:50:39 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:50:55 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/counter3.sss 19:51:03 How come ehird's program scores more than shield? Ehird = 9 losses, 2 ties. Shield = 3 losses, 8 ties. 19:51:11 !help 19:51:11 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 19:51:13 'cuz it's terrible 19:51:13 ? 19:51:15 !yodawg a 19:51:18 !slashes abc 19:51:35 !show slashes 19:51:51 gah 19:52:12 Surely a tie should be worth more than a loss? 19:52:15 I hate collegeboard 19:52:16 I email them saying I don't remember what I put for my security question's answer. They email me asking for personal information. Among the information they're asking for: "Web Account Security Answer:" 19:52:25 Sgeo: I remember you saying that a few minutes ago in Sine too! 19:52:28 A tie is worth more than a loss. 19:52:34 Why not just crosspost everything you say to every IRC channel? 19:53:01 !slashes abc 19:53:08 It's about WHAT you tie or lose against. 19:53:19 GregorR-L: !slashes is not working :( 19:53:20 ehird, good idea! 19:53:29 impomatic: http://codu.org/eso/fyb/SCORES (same scoring used for this) 19:53:30 !echo hi 19:53:34 Sgeo: Grr. 19:53:53 !userinterps 19:53:53 Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo google hello ook rot13 slashes yodawg 19:54:07 GregorR-L: previously i had a problem with it only giving the first line, it didn't use DCC 19:54:21 (although it worked with !show then) 19:54:39 Seems echo is equally screwy >_> 19:54:51 However, I'll have to get to that after I fix this :P 19:54:51 and yodawg 19:55:13 GregorR-L: fix the backslashes then too pretty please 19:55:33 oerjan: I haven't fixed that because I don't know where the bug is. 19:55:38 ic 19:56:06 !ook ++++++++[->++++++++<]>. 19:56:06 @ 19:56:12 oh _that_ works 19:56:42 LMAO 19:56:48 !yodawg `.hi 19:56:49 h 19:56:52 and that 19:56:57 !show echo 19:56:58 bf ,[.,] 19:57:05 !echo hi there! 19:57:13 huh 19:57:26 err, what's !yodawg? 19:57:33 unlambda in unlambda 19:57:38 ah 19:58:13 !addinterp echo_sh sh cat 19:58:13 Interpreter echo_sh installed. 19:58:21 !echo_sh Hi there! 19:58:22 Hi there! 19:58:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:59:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 20:00:40 Oh, undocumented instruction in BF Joust :-) 20:01:21 !bfjoust attack1 [>[-]+] 20:01:22 Score for GregorR-L_attack1: -3 (maximum 10) 20:01:47 impomatic: wut? 20:01:54 Ah, not undocmented I just didn't read the Wiki properly. 20:02:03 which one did you mean? 20:02:48 % 20:03:17 ah 20:03:26 I assumbed it was a * on the Wiki for some reason 20:03:56 09/05/26 19:32:07 !bf joust simple [>[-]+] 20:04:12 09/05/26 20:01:23 !bf joust attack1 [>[-]+] 20:04:15 Hmmm... :-P 20:04:30 cat attack1.bfjoust 20:04:33 [>[-]+] 20:05:15 impomatic: "!bf joust"? 20:05:19 what's up with your logs? 20:05:40 !bfjoust attack1a [>[+]-] 20:05:42 Score for ehird_attack1a: 2 (maximum 11) 20:05:50 !bf joust :p 20:05:52 I added the space in case egobot responded to what I pasted 20:05:59 impomatic: only at the start of a line 20:06:09 Ah okay 20:06:32 !bf joust ,[.,]!Hello, world! 20:06:36 !bf joust,[.,]!Hello, world! 20:06:44 hmm... input with ! no longer workd 20:06:45 *works 20:08:58 What is it, kill EgoBot day? 20:09:34 !bfjoust flux (>)*8(>[-]+)*21 20:09:35 Score for impomatic_flux: 4 (maximum 12) 20:10:19 OK, it now caches. 20:10:23 yay 20:10:24 !bfjoust flux_a_counteracting_monomorphism_cocktails (>)*8(>[+]-)*21 20:10:27 Score for ehird_flux_a_counteracting_monomorphism_cocktails: 6 (maximum 13) 20:10:33 \o/ 20:12:57 ais523: how do you shorten nests, again? 20:13:31 (a{b}c)%3 == aaabccc 20:13:41 even if a and c contain the matching halves of square brackets 20:14:18 !bfjoust kicks_ehird >---->++++>-->++(>)*4(>++[-]+)*21 20:14:19 Score for impomatic_kicks_ehird: 5 (maximum 9) 20:14:25 Gee, this is much faster with caching :P 20:14:30 ais523: what if I want n=0->a, n=1->[ab],n=2->[[ab]b], etc? 20:14:34 do I have to manually do that? 20:14:54 GregorR-L: can you remove score? pts seems so much more useful 20:15:02 ehird: no 20:15:18 ais523: oh? 20:15:23 that's ([{a}b])%5 20:15:25 or whatever 20:15:28 ... score is much better. Writing something that beats all the most useless programs but fails against any good ones shouldn't do well :P 20:15:41 GregorR-L: then make the in-channel thing report score 20:15:43 instead of points 20:16:16 I suppose now that report is caching, that's not wildly insane *sigh* 20:16:37 !bfjoust modernist_decorum ([{[]}+])%30 20:16:44 Score for ehird_modernist_decorum: -9 (maximum 10) 20:16:56 Wtf? 20:17:01 It should constantly defend its flag. 20:17:49 ais523: ([{[]}+])%blah is like [[[[[[]+]+]+]+]+], correct? 20:17:54 !bfjoust modernist_decorum [[[[[[[[[]+]+]+]+]+]+]+]+] 20:18:01 Score for ehird_modernist_decorum: -9 (maximum 10) 20:18:01 ehird: yes 20:19:06 ais523: so why does it fail? 20:20:20 !bfjoust elena_lady_of_the_french_moving_picture_association (>+)*8[[-].>] 20:20:29 Score for ehird_elena_lady_of_the_french_moving_picture_association: -8 (maximum 10) 20:20:41 i should probably spend more time coming up with the programs than their name 20:20:42 s 20:23:31 hey GregorR-L, what would I need to get a local version of the !bfjoust command? 20:23:42 working the same way, updating a local scoreboard, etc 20:23:46 I want to genetically evolve some proggies 20:23:57 !info 20:23:57 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 20:24:09 GregorR-L: That's... not helpful. At all. 20:24:18 Read scmds/bfjoust :P 20:24:39 GregorR-L: I don't want a version that commits to an hg repository and is hooked up to IRC, is the point. 20:25:16 ehird: The report program in interps/bfjoust does exactly what you need, without any hgism or whatnot. 20:25:21 ehird: all the programs needed are there 20:25:25 Oh. 20:25:26 there's glue to link them to IRC 20:25:27 That's nice, then. 20:25:28 but you can just not use it 20:28:12 % perl5.10.0 bfjoust 20:28:12 Both programs finished. 20:28:13 Draw! 20:28:15 :D 20:28:41 ais523: #!/usr/bin/perl 20:28:44 please fix that to #!/usr/bin/env perl 20:28:48 my perl5.10 didn't run on it 20:28:52 since it's in /opt/perl/bin 20:28:59 not everyone has control over their vendor :) 20:29:15 ehird: you could just run it with perl as a separate program 20:29:16 like you did above 20:29:19 yes, I could 20:29:21 but it's still a bug. 20:29:23 not all computers have env 20:29:29 ais523: ehm 20:29:31 yes they do 20:29:44 (I have Perl and not env on my Windows computer at home running under DJGPP; it ignores the path in #! lines but parses the program) 20:29:45 all UNIX-alikes and POSIX-alikes do, and Windows doesn't have /usr/bin 20:29:57 ais523: then what's in the #! line doesn't matter to it 20:30:01 yes it does 20:30:05 because it'd try to run env, not perl 20:30:18 ais523: then DJGPP is buggy 20:30:22 and 20:30:25 20:29 ais523: ehird: you could just run it with perl as a separate program 20:30:52 Incidentally, perl is particularly problematic since there's a flag you're always "supposed" to add, but #!/usr/bin/env perl can't add flags. 20:31:05 GregorR-L: no, you're not meant to use perl -w 20:31:08 you're meant to "use warnings;" 20:31:20 Oh :P 20:31:23 -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust 20:31:23 -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust.pl 20:31:27 Then I've been taught wrong oh noes 20:31:28 ais523: GregorR-L: errrrrrr. 20:31:33 Look at ais523 :P 20:31:35 dare I ask why? 20:31:45 ehird: "use warnings;" is scoped 20:31:56 ... 20:31:58 20:31 ehird: -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust 20:31:59 20:31 ehird: -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust.pl 20:32:00 ais523: why 20:32:09 % ./report 20:32:10 Use: report 20:32:10 ehird: so you can turn warnings on and off, obviously 20:32:13 GregorR-L: That's a remarkably unhelpful help 20:32:19 ais523: ARGH!! ARE YOU BLIND?!?!?! 20:32:21 20:31 ehird: 20:31 ehird: -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust 20:32:21 20:31 ehird: 20:31 ehird: -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 3500 26 May 20:27 bfjoust.pl 20:32:50 ehird: I noticed that, but aren't replying to it 20:32:55 ehird: cd programs; ../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust 20:32:58 * amn't 20:32:59 (Cache dir must exist) 20:33:00 ais523: that was what my question was about 20:33:05 so why did you answer a question I didn't ask? 20:33:33 GregorR-L: Umm... and how do I get a certain program's score out of this? 20:33:46 Additionally, how can I get the latest scoreboard of programs? 20:34:17 Hold your horses. I'm saving scores to files now, the scoreboard is spit out stdout. 20:34:51 GregorR-L: x_x 20:35:32 Previously the scores were only in the stdout report, so don't complain :P 20:35:49 GregorR-L: So what do I need to do? 20:36:00 Wait ten minutes. 20:36:12 Wendyful 20:41:45 OK, re-pull. 20:41:48 Scores are saved in the cache. 20:41:52 foo.score 20:42:07 That's the best you'll get due to my crippling apathy :P 20:42:57 GregorR-L: So, cd programs; echo bitch>goddamn.bfjoust; ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust; cat ../cache/goddamn.score? 20:43:27 Now, GregorR-L, some questions: Does this trim the hill to 10 items? How do I get the current scoreboard programs in here? 20:45:09 This does trim the hill, yes. That command is ../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust, and the scoreboard is the output of report. 20:45:43 GregorR: No. I mean: how do I get the current egobot programs in there? 20:45:48 Oh 20:45:56 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ 20:46:00 impomatic: have you got all your favorite warriors in EgoBot? 20:46:06 GregorR: Ew. Fine. 20:46:14 Just the two 20:46:21 impomatic: OK 20:46:34 GregorR: Will removing the hill-trimming code make, say, the program think a warrior is great while EgoBot gives it a low score? 20:46:39 i.e. will it bias my results 20:46:59 It could, but not by a lot, it gives more weight to beating programs that do well themselves. 20:47:20 What should I limit the hill to now? 10 is no longer necessary, and seems to small. 50 mebbe? 20:47:20 GregorR-L: I'm just wondering whether to evolve with or without the limited hill 20:47:55 ais523: i don't need to generate the ()/%/* stuff, right? I can just preprocess them in before sending the program to bfjoust 20:48:12 ehird: I would say fight against a static hill ... 20:48:20 ehird: That is, always delete your own. 20:48:25 (After a generation) 20:48:28 GregorR: err, but then I'll only beat the best one currently on the hill 20:48:39 OH, you want to evolve against yourself, right. 20:48:39 if I add mine to the hill, I come up with a strategy that beats the current crop, then beat that, etc 20:48:46 In that case, definitely keep them all. 20:48:48 Right. 20:48:58 GregorR: does that require intensive surgery? 20:49:00 Beating programs that don't do well doesn't earn you much score-wise. 20:49:08 Nope, just remove about five lines. 20:49:16 yay 20:49:20 Line 300 of report.c 20:49:35 It should be painfully obvious what to remove. 20:49:47 And yes, I know, that's gross, but report.c is a hack :P 20:49:52 GregorR: You said "without any hg stuff". 20:49:55 system("hg commit -m -"); 20:50:02 I assume that, then, is not "hg stuff"... 20:50:07 That's the only time report.c uses hg. I forgot about that because it shouldn't :) 20:50:11 Ah. 20:50:26 GregorR: which hg repo has the programs? 20:50:31 I don't want to download 'em manually. 20:50:31 An internal one. 20:50:34 ugh 20:50:47 wget -r -l inf -np http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/ 20:50:57 I was just going to suggest wget, too 20:51:10 GregorR-L seems to have more wget-fu than me, but mine is good enough for something like that 20:51:11 GregorR: that ends up spidering the whole web 20:51:16 ehird: -np 20:51:25 ais523: it certainly downloads non-.bfjoust files 20:51:25 there's an option not to spider above where you start 20:51:34 ehird: yes, presumably it's the directory index in 20 different formats 20:51:37 it is 20:51:41 which kind of defeats the damn point... 20:51:53 meh 20:51:53 ehird: Good freaking lord, stop complaining and mv *.bfjoust 20:52:20 GregorR: i'm irritated 20:52:28 NORLY 20:53:25 GregorR-L: report is idempotent, right? 20:53:34 as in, running it without changing its args or the files will have no effect 20:53:40 % mkdir ../cache;../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust 20:53:41 IDScorePtsProgram 20:53:42 00.000ais523_attack5.bfjoust 20:53:44 90.000impomatic_shortsword.bfjoust 20:53:46 80.000impomatic_kicks_ehird.bfjoust 20:53:48 GregorR-L: cool story bro 20:54:14 So long as you removed that deletion, yes. 20:54:29 Does ../bfjoust run? 20:54:29 GregorR-L: so everything's just lame huh 20:54:32 Oh. 20:54:37 No, because ais523 broke it. 20:54:55 ais523: and "perl ../bfjoust" doesn't work with gregor's report program 20:54:58 because it requires a filename 20:55:08 ais523: so what did you say about "you can run it manually with 'perl bfjoust'?" 20:55:10 ic, ic. 20:55:14 Heh, whoopsiloo :) 20:55:24 Just change the #! line *shrugs* 20:56:03 % ../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust 20:56:03 IDScorePtsProgram 20:56:05 00.000ais523_attack5.bfjoust 20:56:07 90.000impomatic_shortsword.bfjoust 20:56:09 GregorR-L: (yes, I fixed it) 20:56:16 Oh. 20:56:19 ../cache was broken. 20:56:20 Somehow. 20:57:23 GregorR-L: d'you think removing the programs whose pts are below 0 is a wise decision? 20:57:29 otherwise it'll fuss over them 20:57:49 It won't fuss much over them :P 20:57:55 True. 20:58:18 The problem is that it may be a program that defeats one really "important" program, but doesn't do well otherwise. 20:58:23 And you'd want to keep that alive. 20:58:29 Yep. 20:59:11 (Which is why the whole "score" vs "points" system exists :P ) 20:59:43 GregorR-L: ../cache never changes anything, right? 20:59:48 As in, rm -rf ../cache only makes it slower 20:59:50 not anything else 21:00:01 If you /update/ a program, you have to remove its relevant cache entries. 21:00:20 Ahahahahahahahahaha GregorR-L and which are these 21:00:27 *:filename.bfjoust* 21:00:47 Errr, *:filename.bfjoust:* 21:01:24 GregorR-L: What about .score? 21:01:33 That's never read, only written. 21:01:38 kay 21:01:40 $ ./bfjoust.pl attack1.bj defend6.bj | wc -l 21:01:41 20704 21:01:43 with 2 lines of output per step 21:01:50 that means that 10000 is not enough 21:01:56 but 20000 probably is, that was quite a long tape 21:01:59 ais523: please, can you use .bfjoust instead of .bj? the connotations! 21:02:05 I do elsewhere 21:02:15 but the connotations are only in your mind 21:02:23 And your penis. 21:02:27 yes, well, the connotations of everything is only in your mind 21:02:33 And your penis. 21:04:30 incidentally, defend6 beats shortsword too 21:04:36 it's just /slightly/ too long for an IRC lien 21:04:38 *line 21:04:40 so I will paste it 21:04:41 ais523: cat it? 21:04:42 thanks 21:04:51 ais523: Y'know you can use a URL? 21:04:58 that too 21:04:58 GregorR-L: I do 21:05:01 which is why I'm pasting it 21:05:04 ... 21:05:08 ais523: !bfjoust butt http://foo 21:05:09 works 21:05:13 OH, pasteBIN 21:05:24 (-ing it) 21:05:59 !bfjoust defend6 http://pastebin.ca/raw/1435349 21:06:14 Wow, that's a fucked up codeulation, ais523. 21:06:17 Care to expand it for us mortals? 21:06:21 in what way? 21:06:21 Score for ais523_defend6: 97.0 21:06:24 O_O 21:06:28 ais523: just look at it! 21:06:36 ehird: it consists of lots of not-quite-repeats 21:06:44 if I expanded it, it would be massively long 21:06:49 as there are no loops but the [] at the start 21:06:52 Heh, it ties against defend1 :P 21:07:05 GregorR-L: not surprising, they're both defence programs 21:07:11 and wait for the opponent to arrive 21:07:34 *defense 21:07:34 Well, looks like you're on top now. 21:07:43 maybe I should add in a defence-program-detector 21:07:45 GregorR-L: So's your mom 21:07:54 that switches to a counter-defence strategy if it notices one 21:08:03 IDScorePtsProgram 21:08:04 295.8710ais523_defend6.bfjoust 21:08:05 (a detector is easy, just wait for a few thousand turns and see if anything happens) 21:08:08 GregorR-L: Why is it differen? 21:08:18 t 21:08:20 I have the same programs. 21:08:24 Oh. 21:08:26 impomatic: you'll have to come up with something that can beat that, now I've knocked shortsword off the leaderboard 21:08:26 Because I have 11 of them. 21:08:28 Right. 21:08:30 ehird: tape length randomisation, too 21:08:38 ais523: ugh, it's nondeterministic? 21:08:40 hate 21:08:42 it might make a difference, although probably not 21:08:56 the randomisation's just to prevent people using degenerate strategies, and rarely changes the result 21:09:33 there's probably an optimum strategy for a constant tape length N 21:09:56 ehird: yes, just running straight to your opponent's flag 21:10:04 oh, of course. 21:11:01 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/evolve_bfjoust/working/evolvist] % ruby evolvist.rb 21:11:01 60.3 21:11:03 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/evolve_bfjoust/working/evolvist] % ruby evolvist.rb 21:11:05 70.2 21:11:09 GregorR-L: ais523: that's a pretty large variation... 21:11:14 (testing impomatic_shortsword) 21:11:28 "Testing" in what way? 21:11:30 maybe I should do it, say, 5 times, and take the average 21:11:35 GregorR-L: 21:11:36 def remove_cache(name) 21:11:37 `rm ../cache/*:#{name}.bfjoust:*` 21:11:39 end 21:11:41 def test_program(name) 21:11:43 remove_cache(name) 21:11:44 ehird: if it's an evolutionary algorithm, a bit of randomness is fine anyway 21:11:45 `../report ../bfjoust ../cache *.bfjoust` 21:11:47 File.read("../cache/#{name}.bfjoust.score") 21:11:49 end 21:12:01 ais523: i suppose 21:12:03 Any change there can only be from tape lengths ... 21:12:04 i'm not goign to get anywhere with this 21:12:10 it takes multiple seconds just to run once 21:12:25 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/evolve_bfjoust/working/evolvist] % time ruby evolvist.rb 21:12:25 70.2 21:12:26 ruby evolvist.rb 2.16s user 0.13s system 97% cpu 2.342 total 21:12:28 [ehird:~/Code/scraps/2009-05/evolve_bfjoust/working/evolvist] % time ruby evolvist.rb 21:12:29 ehird: Quay? With the cache in place it shouldn't? 21:12:30 60.3 21:12:32 ruby evolvist.rb 1.78s user 0.13s system 98% cpu 1.936 total 21:12:41 GregorR-L: it removes the cache for the program we're testing 21:12:42 obviously 21:12:45 since it's to be used when you change it 21:12:54 although, I suppose I won't ever reuse a prorgam 21:12:56 Oh, it's because your programs almost always time out, right? :P 21:12:56 *program 21:13:16 GregorR-L: anyway, you need <0.1s for evolving to be practiacl 21:13:19 *practical 21:13:21 otherwise it'll take years 21:13:29 Duh 21:13:52 GregorR-L: in short, make it faster :P 21:13:57 ehird: just some programs are naturally very slow 21:13:59 in terms of cycles 21:14:03 Any slowness at this point is due to timeouts. 21:14:10 defend6 wins really quite slowly, most of the time 21:14:10 ais523: just get AnMaster to rewrite it 21:14:15 juts turn on debug and look at the log 21:14:19 it'll be really fast :p 21:14:22 you could speed it up by not reparsing the program every step 21:14:25 or in numerous other ways 21:14:50 (Or not writing it in Perl) 21:14:52 rewrite the bfjoust interpreter? 21:15:00 AnMaster: yes 21:15:07 No thanks. I'm not really interested in corewars or similar things 21:15:18 Gee I sure was not joking 21:15:19 Absolutely not 21:15:29 "AnMaster" in string implies seriousville, true logic equation facst. 21:15:32 facts, too. 21:15:35 * AnMaster goes back listening to radio 21:15:47 * GregorR-L goes back to no soap. Radio! 21:16:22 GregorR-L: Hahahahaha 21:17:37 ehird: as for that BF Joust program, I have a version with whitespace too which shows what it's doing 21:25:21 ais523: that'd be nice 21:26:05 ehird: http://pastebin.ca/1435376 21:28:25 ah 21:29:09 it attacks something in particular, which is the [-] or [+] loop 21:29:13 nearly all programs have one 21:29:37 and if they go into such a loop on its flag, then defend6 will keep them in it forever, whilst running off and sinking their flag 21:32:16 !bfjoust tweaked [>+[---]+] 21:32:25 Score for impomatic_tweaked: 37.5 21:32:39 impomatic: last place 21:32:49 although it does beat defend6 21:33:09 wait, not last 21:33:17 sixth 21:33:28 beating a program that beats all the others is quite good for its score... 21:34:06 and kicks_ehird is amusing, it beats all the programs that don't start ais523_, and loses to all the ones that do 21:34:32 Game of Werewolves (called Mafia) at irc.xkcd.com #mafia 21:34:49 Sgeo: why did you just advertise that in #esoteric and ##nomic? 21:34:51 :-) 21:35:15 I thought peoople there might be interested. Agora had a Werewolves thing 21:35:51 impomatic: interesting strategy in stranger, by the way 21:36:00 you seem to be thinking about counter-defence strategies 21:37:06 Hmmm... I've also slept since I wrote that one ;-) 21:37:18 I can tell how it works, though 21:37:27 detects defence strategies by looking to see if the flag has changed 21:37:45 and trying up-runs and down-runs to see if either beats the defence strategy, before moving on 21:38:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:42:33 "I don't know very English but I know very much Spanish and I suppose you don't know very Spanish but you know very English because you are American but I am not American." 21:42:37 —Fidel Castro 21:42:52 (Or should I say "Fidel Zzo38stro"? :D) 21:43:30 wow, is that a genuine quote? 21:43:34 that is so very zzo38 21:43:41 except the grammar isn't quite as good 21:43:55 ais523: it is genuine 21:43:56 http://everything2.com/title/Young%2520Fidel%2520Castro%2527s%2520letter%2520to%2520President%2520Roosevelt 21:44:03 beforehand he asks Roosevelt for a 10 dollar bill 21:44:14 because he wants to see one, apparently 21:44:24 he was, admittedly, 12 years old 21:45:20 http://www.underfoule.net/mika/src/12433705409.jpg 21:45:42 Slereah: I see no /prog/snake; downvoted. 21:46:11 Where does the snake come from, anyway? 21:46:14 http://images.cafepress.com/jitcrunch.aspx?bG9hZD1ibGFuayxibGFuazoyX0YuanBnfGxvYWQ9TDAsaHR0cDovL2ltYWdlczkuY2FmZXByZXNzLmNvbS9pbWFnZS8zNDEyMjU4OV80MDB4NDAwLmpwZ3x8c2NhbGU9TDAsMTcwLDE0NSxXaGl0ZXxjb21wb3NlPWJsYW5rLEwwLEFkZCwxNTUsMTI1fGNwPXJlc3VsdCxibGFua3xzY2FsZT1yZXN1bHQsMCw0ODAsV2hpdGV8Y29tcHJlc3Npb249OTV8 21:46:15 Wow. 21:46:17 Slereah: /prog/ 21:46:29 Yes, but why? 21:46:36 Slereah: Because SICP. 21:46:39 "force e = e" —/prog 21:46:40 / 21:48:42 wat 21:49:01 Is there a snake in SICP? 21:49:15 No. 21:49:44 -!- inurinternet has joined. 21:50:05 Whyyyyy 21:50:09 Why that snake 21:50:13 Satori 21:50:16 He is handsome and all, but 21:52:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 21:52:12 Carts, cartographers, 21:52:12 NO! 21:53:36 wat 21:54:50 !bfjoust dumb (>)*9([(-)*128.[-]]>)*20 21:54:52 Score for impomatic_dumb: 50.0 21:55:11 http://twitter.com/progsnake 21:55:17 This is not helpful 21:57:30 http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1861/screenshotlm2.png 21:57:31 Ahahah 21:58:26 ehird, do you know, or do I have to ask /soc/? 21:59:31 Slereah: It is just random. 21:59:47 Also, your questioning is unscientific and ultimately destructive. 22:01:28 A lot of memes actually have some sort of origin 22:01:31 You never know: 22:09:43 Slereah: I'm waiting for the conclusion to your colon. 22:10:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out). 22:11:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 22:12:19 The conclusion of my colon is my asshole 22:12:49 hur hur 22:15:34 -!- MizardX has joined. 22:16:00 [[Q: How do you vote in elections? 22:16:00 A: I usually vote for the fattest candidate, on the basis that they'll take up more room on the House of Commons benches, thereby giving me more democracy for my valuable franchise.]] 22:18:09 I always vote for the tallest guy 22:20:08 I vote for the guy most likely to gum the works. 22:20:26 In this day and age, that means someone with reasonable opinions. 22:23:34 "The Apple M9178 23-Inch Cinema HD Display is a liquid crystal display (LCD) monitor and has a default resolution of 1920x1200 dpi (dots per inch)." 22:23:39 holy fucking shit! 22:23:52 pikhq: You know we talked about that IBM display with hugh dpi? 22:23:53 *huge 22:23:56 THIS IS THE REAL DEAL :P 22:24:06 It's like a bajillion times more dense than paper! 22:24:37 ehird: that's probably a bug 22:24:41 in the description 22:24:42 ais523: no shit 22:24:52 it's a bug in the wetware of the human who authored it, rather. 22:24:55 still funny 22:26:09 1920x1200 dpi? 22:26:11 Damn. 22:26:14 Totally. 22:26:20 pikhq: Think how many VMs you could run. 22:26:28 one in each square inch 22:26:31 at a decent resolution 22:26:36 A really decent resolution. 22:26:43 It's pretty much the max anyone runs. 22:26:53 Well, some people game at 2048x1536 22:26:54 But whatever 22:26:59 (Or was it 2560x1600?) 22:27:11 That's watching every single HD station at once. 22:27:18 pikhq: The screen is 44160x27600 22:27:24 And the total DPI is 3063 22:27:25 And a small handful of bluray discs. 22:27:27 (.27) 22:27:32 And 0.0083mm dot pitch 22:27:45 Mind = blown. 22:27:48 pikhq: Haha. That's 8.3 microns separating each pixel. 22:29:05 I didn't know that there was an 8 micron silicon process out there. 22:29:06 :p 22:29:31 Oh, the micron is larger than the nanometer. 22:29:49 That's still pretty impressive. 22:30:02 wow, that's the first time I clicked on a link to Goatse 22:30:09 For comparison, a red blood cell is 7 microns. 22:30:12 and I recognised it as Goatse before it finished loading, and managed to not look at it 22:30:15 ais523: :D 22:30:31 pikhq: 10 microns was the state of the art process in 1971-1972 22:30:37 Yeah. 22:30:37 3 microns was reached in 1975. 22:30:40 But that's microchips. 22:30:45 well, I recognised it wasn't what it claimed to be 22:30:52 and guessed it was a shock image 22:30:55 This would be the first monitor that requires you to spend inordinate amounts of money just to detect the pixel separation, pikhq :D 22:31:04 BTW, the proper terminology is the 'micrometer'. As in µm. 22:31:14 pikhq: microns is also acceptable 22:31:23 A micrometre or micron (American spelling: micrometer; symbol µm) is one millionth of a metre, or equivalently one thousandth of a millimetre. It can be written in scientific notation as 1×10−6 m, meaning 1/1 000 000 m. 22:31:35 Yes, but µm is something I can type that most can't. :p 22:31:52 Compose m u FTW. 22:32:10 * ais523 wipes the goatse from browser cache 22:32:41 * pikhq can't wait for picometer CPU processes 22:33:11 µm is easy 22:33:15 ehird 22:33:16 and I didn't even copy-paste from you 22:33:26 comex: this is not a nomic channel, before you say anything 22:33:34 ais523: Yes, but not for Windows users. 22:33:42 do you consent to ais523 joining bayes 22:33:44 pikhq: Is picometer even possible? I mean, 11nm is nanotechnology. 22:33:45 Alt+0something or other. 22:33:48 comex: I do not consent. 22:33:49 comex: I'm not trying to 22:33:55 ehird: Barely. 22:33:59 ais523: well, I asked you if you wanted to and you didn't respond 22:34:02 and I suspect you need my consent too 22:34:05 ais523: he wants to stop it being deregistered by announcement 22:34:11 yes, I guessed 22:34:13 also, still wrong channel 22:34:14 A picometer process would have the circuit as a very complex molecule. 22:34:23 comex: [[I deregister Bayes.]] 22:34:25 ais523: blame him 22:34:33 pikhq: i'm not sure that would work too well 22:34:42 Erm. Actually. 22:34:50 Lemme check to see how big a silicon atom is. 22:34:52 ah, you suck 22:34:54 helium atom = 31 picometers 22:35:09 117.6 picometers for Si. 22:35:15 pikhq: Heh. Silicon's a fatso. 22:35:43 pikhq: So 0.1176nm. 22:35:45 -!- impomatic has left (?). 22:35:46 ... Arguably, we're already dealing with complex molecules. 22:35:54 pikhq: Yeah. 22:35:59 We're currently at 45/32nm 22:36:04 32nm can do RAM and shit, so let's say that 22:36:05 I mean, really. We're discussing traces that are about 100 atoms across. 22:36:29 (3 or 4 hundred across for common processes) 22:36:31 pikhq: 32nm = 272 * a silicon atom 22:36:38 32000 picometers 22:36:38 so yeah 22:37:00 pikhq: 11nm - nanoelectronics - will be 93 22:37:07 so really, we're near that stage 22:37:26 IIRC, Intel was working on 20nm stuff. 22:37:40 22nm you mean 22:37:50 I omit figures. 22:37:51 Bite me. 22:37:56 pikhq: On August 18, 2008, AMD, Freescale, IBM, STMicroelectronics, Toshiba and the College of Nanoscale Science and Engineering (CNSE) announced that they jointly developed and manufactured a 22 nm SRAM cell, built on a traditional six-transistor design on a 300 mm wafer, which had a memory cell size of just 0.1 square μm.[5] The cell was printed using immersion lithography.[6] 22:38:10 pikhq: that's a bit too prototype for my tastes 22:38:36 pikhq: But that's 187 * Si 22:39:06 I seem to recall Intel wanting to have their next generation on a 22nm process. Anyways. 22:39:20 pikhq: the next tock will be a 32nm shrink of Nehalem 22:39:27 and Intel are converting a fab to it 22:39:32 so that's basically where we're at now 22:40:04 22 000 22:40:05 er 22:40:07 Some predictions for the 22 nm node come from the ITRS. For example, it is predicted that silicon devices will no longer be planar, but will require ultrathin sections mostly surrounded on the sides by gates. The silicon body in each section is fully depleted, i.e., the free charge carrier concentration is deliberately suppressed. The sections basically protrude as fins from the surface (sometimes these are known as FinFETs). The creation of fins is a ne 22:40:11 w challenge for the semiconductor industry, which has become accustomed to building transistors on a flat silicon surface. As of late 2008, several technical risks remain for implementation of non-planar 22nm transistors for logic applications.[2] 22:40:15 According to the ITRS, the 22 nm node also marks the first time where the pre-metal dielectric, separating the transistor from the first metal layer, is a porous low-k material, replacing traditional, denser CVD silicon dioxide. The introduction of a porous material closer to the front end presents numerous integration challenges. In particular, the extent of plasma damage to low-k materials is typically 20 nm thick,[3] but can also go up to approximatel 22:40:20 y 100 nm.[4] 22:40:22 pikhq: tl;dr: "22nm requires some thinking before we can use it" 22:40:28 whereas 32nm has no real issues vs 45nm 22:40:29 Okay. 22:40:29 yep 22:40:38 they want to put the transistors vertically, sticking out from the chip 22:40:40 Still, very damned impressive. 22:40:40 16nm is megahard: 22:40:41 16 nm resolution is difficult to achieve in a polymeric resist, even with electron beam lithography. In addition, the chemical effects of ionizing radiation also limit reliable resolution to about 50 nm, which is also achievable using current state-of-the-art immersion lithography. Hardmask materials and possibly iterated double patterning will be required. 22:40:43 to help cooling and density, or something 22:40:45 A more significant limitation comes from plasma damage to low-k materials. The extent of damage is typically 20 nm thick,[3] but can also go up to approximately 100 nm.[4] The damage sensitivity is expected to get worse as the low-k materials become more porous. 22:40:49 and 11nm, well, that's nanotechnology 22:40:52 quantum tunneling and shit 22:41:23 The point is, we're getting to that pretty quick. 22:43:46 Which is pretty damned spiffy. 22:44:20 mm 22:44:29 Hmm. Intel is planning to start shipping 22 nm in 2011. 22:44:39 No guarantees of it actually happening, of course. 23:04:10 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 23:04:57 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:06:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:06:21 -!- coppro has joined. 23:13:42 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:25:49 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:29:08 BTW, way up the logs, s/Örjan/Ørjan/ 23:46:45 pikhq: intel say they'll get 11nm by 2015 23:46:49 which is bs 23:47:04 ehird: Which is unlikely. 23:47:09 BS. 23:47:44 nothing remotely close to the advanceness of what Intel wants to do at 11nm even exists in a "this could work" sketch for a prototype, as far as I know 23:48:14 Unless Intel is sitting on stuff. Which would be stunning to say the least. 23:48:36 I find that incredibly unlikely. 23:48:53 If they have 11nm stuff right now, they could make bajillions and woo everyone by demonstrating it 23:48:58 Because it's literally sci-fi. 23:56:38 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection reset by peer). 23:59:34 -!- AnMaster has joined.