00:00:05 FireFly: wow that's trivial 00:00:13 Maybe, if I have the time for it, GregorR 00:00:15 -L 00:00:15 also, it's die 00:00:16 not dice 00:00:19 Ah 00:00:24 ^scramble abcdefg 00:00:25 acegfdb 00:00:48 ^scramble ^scramble 00:00:48 ^cabelmrs 00:01:08 ^unscramble ^cabelmrs 00:01:09 ^scramble 00:01:09 class Die; attr_accessor :sides; def initialize(sides); @sides = sides; end; def roll(n); (1..n).map {random n + 1}; end end 00:01:11 *end end 00:01:17 ^scramble abbdbbd 00:01:17 um 00:01:18 abbdbdb 00:01:20 Aw, it doesn't listen to itself 00:01:25 I wasn't sure, so I guess I should've written dic?e 00:01:32 ^scramble !swedish butt 00:01:32 !wds uttbhies 00:01:44 ^unscramble !wds uttbhies 00:01:45 !swedish butt 00:01:45 boott 00:01:49 :D 00:02:03 !swedish ^scramble 00:02:03 ^scremble-a 00:02:07 GregorR-L: add a compose command like lambdabot: 00:02:09 Nah, it no works 00:02:12 !compose a b c d e 00:02:13 → 00:02:15 !b c d e 00:02:18 then, 00:02:20 !a 00:02:23 you could combine like so: 00:02:31 !compose a compose b compose c d input 00:02:39 actually, name it . 00:02:45 !. a . b . c d input 00:02:46 !. a . b 00:02:47 → 00:02:47 Nice 00:02:50 !d input 00:02:52 !c result 00:02:53 Does not compile. 00:02:54 !b result 00:02:57 !a result 00:03:03 and print the result of a only 00:03:10 Not yet, EgoBot, not yet 00:03:26 GregorR-L: So, yeah 00:03:27 . 00:13:04 ^scramble abboblob 00:13:04 abboblob 00:14:30 ^scramble abacaba 00:14:31 aaaabcb 00:14:34 ^help 00:14:34 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 00:14:56 pikhq: ... 540p is HD? You're an HD person, so tell me. 00:15:06 ehird: 540p is ED. 00:15:15 gamespot says it's HD :P 00:15:23 Gamespot is full of shit. 00:16:40 ^scramble occacaaac 00:16:41 occacaaac 00:17:53 ^scramble ooccoo 00:17:53 ocooco 00:20:39 Time to sleep, good night 00:20:47 Gentlemen and bots 00:20:57 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:26:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:27:12 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:27:19 ehird: I don't understand, what would compose do? 00:27:29 ehird, pikhq: Hulu says 480p is HD. 00:27:37 GregorR-L: Allow me to explain. 00:27:43 !compose a b c... 00:27:47 where c... means freeform text w/ spaces etc 00:27:48 GregorR-L: Which is bullshit. 00:27:51 GregorR-L: Now, this is like the following: 00:27:54 !b c 00:27:57 result 00:28:00 !a result 00:28:02 result2 00:28:03 -!- coppro has joined. 00:28:05 so 00:28:07 !compose a b c 00:28:09 would print result2 00:28:11 GregorR-L: If 480p is HD, then most DVDs are HD. 00:28:16 GregorR-L: For example. 00:28:25 !compose scramble bf ,[.,]!Hello, world! 00:28:30 Would be the same as !scramble Hello, world! 00:28:37 GregorR-L: If you name compose ., it's more convenient to nest: 00:28:51 !. scramble . underload bf ,[.,]!(Hello, world!)S 00:28:53 Geddit? 00:29:42 ehird: Yeah, I getsit. 00:29:49 Not right now though, I has shuff to do. 00:29:53 Yar 00:29:58 And that's gd, I lieks lawl 00:30:33 wut 00:30:35 lawl 00:31:09 !swedish That is good and I find it to be a genuinely good idea. 00:31:10 Thet is guud und I feend it tu be-a a genooeenely guud idea. Bork Bork Bork! 00:31:21 my brother's girlfriend has what appears to be a dead usb drive (computers aren't recognizing it when it's inserted); might any of you dudes have suggestions for data recovery? 00:32:09 nescience: Your brother is just too embarrassed to tell you he has ED, so he's trying to be coy. His "USB drive" is "dead". 00:32:16 lols 00:32:17 usb flash drive, that is 00:43:25 nescience: usb "flash" drive 00:43:26 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 00:43:31 it's the "drive" he uses for flashing people 00:47:28 yeah, yeah 00:47:32 floppy drive, hard disk, etc. lols 00:47:36 * nescience shrugs 00:47:43 i referred her to a local data recovery place 00:47:58 doesn't seem like there's anything I can do, other than try to take it apart and resolder connections 00:48:03 which I'm sure they can do better than I can 00:53:50 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 01:00:47 hallo 01:05:20 hi 01:10:41 hoe gaat het met je? 01:11:26 . 01:34:09 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:54:17 -!- inurinternet has joined. 02:21:14 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 02:22:11 -!- Corun has quit. 02:25:38 -!- Leonidas has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:25:38 -!- comex has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:25:39 -!- Slereah_ has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:25:39 -!- ehird has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:25:39 -!- nescience has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:25:39 -!- Ilari has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:26:02 -!- coppro has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:26:02 -!- fizzie has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:26:02 -!- Deewiant has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:26:14 -!- comex has joined. 02:26:14 -!- Leonidas has joined. 02:26:25 -!- myndzi has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:26:45 -!- ehird has joined. 02:26:45 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 02:26:45 -!- nescience has joined. 02:26:45 -!- Ilari has joined. 02:26:48 -!- myndzi has joined. 02:27:08 -!- coppro has joined. 02:27:08 -!- Deewiant has joined. 02:27:08 -!- fizzie has joined. 02:27:15 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:29:16 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 02:33:50 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:37:02 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 02:40:48 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has joined. 02:41:29 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 02:56:15 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:00:07 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:01:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:18:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out). 03:26:23 -!- calamari has joined. 04:02:43 -!- inurinternet has joined. 04:05:27 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 04:28:16 -!- coppro has joined. 04:39:32 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success). 05:15:46 -!- ehird_ has joined. 05:23:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:31:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:31:26 -!- coppro has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:31:26 -!- jix_ has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:31:27 -!- kerlo has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:31:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:32:29 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:33:09 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 05:35:43 -!- jix has joined. 05:35:55 -!- kerlo has joined. 05:37:18 -!- kerlo has quit (Killed by reynolds.freenode.net (Nick collision)). 05:37:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:37:19 -!- coppro has joined. 05:37:19 -!- kerlo has joined. 05:37:25 -!- kerlo_ has joined. 05:38:02 -!- kerlo has quit (Connection reset by peer). 05:39:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:39:31 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:43:58 -!- ehird has joined. 05:47:43 Exciting conversation going on here. 05:50:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:00:21 the netsplits, they kills us 06:06:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:17:10 We should look up names of people that haven't logged in to #esoteric for years and hunt them down :P 06:25:56 once upon a time on dalnet 06:26:05 back in ... 99? or so 06:26:11 i was in this channel with some dudes 06:26:17 i got sucked into mudding and neglected irc, when i came back they were gone 06:26:20 (moved to efnet i guess) 06:26:26 about 5-6 years later 06:26:36 someone messaged me up with a quote from that time, asking if i was the same myndzi 06:26:37 :P 06:26:51 cue nostalgia trip 06:28:42 that was back when ehird was, what, 5 years old, ehird? he was probably in here bitching about shit too. 06:29:06 lol. 06:29:09 blah blah blah monads blah blah blah bfjoust blah blah blah 06:29:14 my nick dropped in that time 06:29:15 or whatever. 06:29:22 and a time before that too 06:29:25 so it only goes back to 2000 :( 06:38:46 GregorR-L: did you take the quiz to find out which circle of hell you belong to? 06:38:49 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: once upon a time on dalnet | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 06:38:56 calamari: Uh, no? 06:39:47 (malbolge) 06:40:00 I think it's malebolge tho, right? 06:43:41 http://www.facebook.com/apps/application.php?id=202157420226 06:45:58 Wow, GregorR is on Facebook. 06:46:31 I'm going to send him a friend salutation, and he's going to deny it because he's not going to know who I am. 06:46:45 No, not a salutation. A solicity. 06:47:05 No, not a solicity. A solicitude. 06:52:13 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:01:17 ............... 07:01:26 calamari: I don't do FaceBook apps. 07:01:37 I barely suffer FaceBook at all. 07:01:51 monads monads monads monads monads bfjoust monads 07:02:47 lament: Imperative imperative imperative imperative fyb imperative. 07:07:54 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"). 07:14:36 lambda, the ultimate sex toy. 07:15:13 Kappa, the penultimate. 07:38:57 a monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad BFJOUST BFJOUST 07:41:10 -!- AnMaster has joined. 07:44:58 atm I'm stuck below native resolution on an old backup gfx card 07:45:16 !swedish AnMaster: What happened to your primary card? 07:45:17 UnMester: Vhet heppened tu yuoor preemery cerd? Bork Bork Bork! 07:45:18 so be aware of that I'm rather irritated 07:46:14 1280x1024 on 1400x1050 isn't pretty. Trust me 07:46:44 GregorR-L, fan broke. Going to get the fan replaced today. 07:47:02 * AnMaster doesn't trust himself to to that, thus going to leave it to pros. 07:47:33 !swedish AnMaster: Sounds expensive. 07:47:34 UnMester: Suoonds ixpenseefe-a. Bork Bork Bork! 07:48:26 GregorR-L, I can't read that !swedish one 07:48:28 :P 07:48:32 Neither can anybody :P 07:48:50 GregorR-L, and 450 SEK for both new fan AND replacement of it. 07:48:54 !show swedish 07:48:54 sh chef | xargs echo 07:48:57 um 07:48:58 ok 07:49:11 !google 450 sek in USD 07:49:12 http://google.com/search?q=450+sek+in+USD 07:49:26 Yeah, that's not cheap. 07:50:16 GregorR-L, the card is an AGP based GeForce 7600 GS 07:50:42 the old card I'm using now? 07:50:47 well it is some ATI shit 07:51:04 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 PRO] (rev 01) 07:51:06 I guess that 07:51:16 *shrugs* 07:51:21 so low end it doesn't even have a fan! 07:51:29 but just a rather small heatsink 07:52:19 * AnMaster wish this screen could scale 07:52:32 then I could get a high res part in the middle instead 07:52:38 seen that on some laptops for some reason 07:53:09 but can't find any such feature in the menus on this monitor 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:57 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:20:05 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 08:40:30 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:41:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:42:53 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 08:58:43 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:15:25 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:15:27 -!- calamari- has joined. 09:15:59 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:26:29 !swedish meatballs 09:26:30 meetbells 09:27:01 !swedish meetbells 09:27:02 meetbells 09:29:55 !swedish Swedish 09:29:56 Svedeesh 09:30:20 ^^^ This is how Americans think that Swedish people talk. 09:30:51 !swedish über 09:30:52 über 09:50:48 !swedish hello 09:50:48 hellu 09:53:23 -!- psygnisfive has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:53:23 -!- coppro has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:54:15 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 09:54:15 -!- coppro has joined. 10:00:55 -!- Judofyr has joined. 10:06:58 -!- coppro has quit (Connection timed out). 10:08:04 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 10:16:57 -!- calamari- has quit ("Leaving"). 10:37:48 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:00:50 GregorR-L, Americans are wrong? 11:01:37 puzzlet, Swedish doesn't have ü... 11:01:42 puzzlet, that is German 11:02:39 GregorR-L, and I can't figure out why it thinks "ball" would turn into "bell"... Rather it might turn into "båll" 11:03:08 that English a sound there is somewhere between our a sound and our å sound. 11:03:40 AnMaster: Go to youtube.com and type "Swedish Chef", and you will understand :P 11:03:55 Well, not understand, but at least see X-P 11:04:40 I know about that 11:05:06 and to me it sounds nothing like how a Swede bad at English would talk 11:05:55 sure, there are sounds in English that aren't in Swedish (and vice versa) but that "chef" one didn't get those right. 11:05:59 I'm told that it's actually a hyper-extreme version of the accents of some areas of Minnesota, where Swedes immigrated and their accent later mixed and warped with the American one. 11:06:13 * AnMaster challenges GregorR-L to pronounce "sju" 11:06:22 a sound not found in English. Or most other languages 11:07:02 Anyway, it's all silliness, and has no bearing on real Swedish people, who to be honest in my experience are taught English from such a young age that they sound mostly like some mix of American and British English accents when speaking English :P 11:07:40 AnMaster: Is "sju" just an "s" followed by "ju"? Or is there some sound we don't have that you can't spell? 11:08:09 ɧ 11:08:11 is the sound 11:08:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal-velar_fricative 11:08:50 Gracenotes, so no it isn't 11:09:02 the sj turns into the ɧ sound 11:09:17 "Its place of articulation is disputed (see below)." Wow 11:09:30 and u isn't the English u btw 11:09:37 So even the name "Voiceless palatal-velar fricative" isn't sufficient for me to reproduce it :P 11:09:51 GregorR-L, I never needed a name to pronounce it! 11:09:56 i know, i just wanted to see how it handles 11:10:15 AnMaster: Well, not having any other reference, and knowing in general what all those words mean, at least that gives me a hint. 11:10:32 GregorR-L, which is "I give up"? ;P 11:12:45 Oh you crazy Swedes and your unique fricatives. 11:12:50 At least we Americans have our schwer. 11:13:00 "schwer"? 11:13:02 what is that 11:13:28 aspell doesn't think that word exists 11:13:31 The 'r' sound in "blur" when pronounced with an American accent. 11:13:36 (but then it is set to en-GB so :P) 11:13:47 GregorR-L, the "Texas r"? 11:14:09 Uhhhh, no? In the south they /don't/ have the schwer :P 11:14:16 Well, yes they do, but less often. 11:14:49 GregorR-L, Western movie? Texas sound. They mess up lots of stuff 11:14:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:14:57 including r and a 11:15:26 GregorR-L, btw about r sound: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology#.2Fr.2F-realizations_and_the_retroflexes 11:15:33 I like that you're describing an accent as "messing up lots of stuff" :P 11:15:41 -!- puzzlet has joined. 11:15:46 GregorR-L, compared to Oxford English yeah :P 11:16:10 Americans have our own English. 11:16:15 What with Oxford being in England :P 11:16:16 yeah. 11:16:32 GregorR-L, I'm surprised there isn't any "New Oxford" :P 11:16:42 or maybe there is? 11:17:05 Probably somewhere, but not of any significance. 11:17:12 I don't see schwer there. Schwer is a vowel, btw. 11:17:33 schwa? 11:17:42 Schwa is the non-r-colored variant, yes. 11:18:00 Or, more accurately, schwer is the r-colored variant of schwa :P 11:18:13 btw, I can't stand this 1280x1024 on 1400x1050 monitor thing.... So I'm going to be mostly afk 11:18:22 before I get a headache from it 11:18:45 Wow, that's extreme. 11:19:01 GregorR-L, ? 11:19:21 GregorR-L, it is VGA too. Doesn't help. 11:19:26 VGA cable I mean 11:19:32 Ahyuh 11:19:38 Gracenotes, ? 11:19:41 err 11:19:42 GregorR-L, ^ 11:19:50 I was making an affirmative sound :P 11:20:09 GregorR-L, but with the nvidia card, and at native res, vga works just fine 11:20:14 since that is all the monitor has 11:20:52 Analog does not deserve the pariah status it's got. 11:20:59 But it's still pretty bad ^^ 11:21:30 GregorR-L, it is worse on this card for some reason 11:23:10 vga on crt is fine 11:23:17 vga on tft is often really bad 11:23:44 CRT is an analog technology. 11:23:50 yeah 11:23:58 (That was a very "duh" statement) 11:26:08 dvi on crt! 11:26:09 hm 11:26:15 would need conversion in the monitor 11:26:37 as would vga on tft 11:26:49 yes, but that is rather common 11:26:59 while dvi on crt... I never heard of it 11:27:08 jix, anyway vga on tft usually works fine 11:27:21 AnMaster: well i guess with better tfts it's ok 11:27:35 jix, "Acer AL2017" is what I have 11:27:48 and here it depends very much on the graphic card in use 11:27:52 messing with the VGA settings on my monitor produces some awesome results 11:28:00 Asztal, oh? 11:28:16 awesome as in good or awesome as in spectacular? 11:28:34 well, not that great 11:29:23 Asztal, with spectacular I meant "spectacular like holding a magnet close to a CRT" kind of spectacular 11:30:24 it's kind of a shimmering horizontal sine wave, if I look at the right bitmap 11:30:36 (alternating black/white in both directions) 11:31:33 it also does with things on both VGA and DVI if I fill some of the white pixels with black, they look green and blue instead 11:31:40 weird things, that is 11:31:42 Asztal, I always had crystal clear results after one click on auto button displaying a black/white checker pattern with each square the size of 1 pixel 11:32:01 and then I never need to rerun auto unless I change the graphic card as I did now 11:32:58 It's rarely perfect with my monitor, unfortunately, there's usually a blue-green-red gradient 11:34:33 Asztal, never had that issue 11:34:42 Asztal, are you sure you are using a shielded cable btw? 11:35:11 (also I never had such an issue with my previous Syncmaster 171B, which also was vga-only..) 11:37:01 maybe mine is a syncnovice 11:37:16 heh 11:37:55 Asztal, but anyway good cable helps. Usually thicker cables are better. Probably due to the extra thickness being more shielding 11:37:59 it's an unshielded cable, but I thought that mostly prevented interference, or possibly ghosting? 11:38:10 I'm not suggesting "monstercable" style here. Just good shielded cable 11:38:34 Asztal, strange are the ways of electromagnetism... 12:08:26 GregorR: Gee, you're not logged in. 12:10:15 -!- GregorR has joined. 12:31:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:44:37 well, is PESOIX or PSOX widely used? 12:54:34 I never heard of "PESOIX" before 12:54:47 and I don't think PSOX is *widely* used at least 12:56:20 PESOIX is the one mentioned in this page: http://jonripley.com/easel/ 12:56:30 which is an extension to EsoAPI. 12:57:37 Dudens. 12:57:54 How do I put two graphics on the same level in LaTeX? 12:58:48 I have done that... Hm *tries to remember where and/or how* 13:11:24 anyway i have designed this one: http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/exe it is certainly duplicated effort, though. :S 13:27:19 -!- Corun has joined. 13:31:01 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 13:42:15 -!- Corun has joined. 13:50:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:59:05 lifthrasiir, this would be mostly for BF I guess? 13:59:52 lifthrasiir, because handling null bytes will be a PTIA in many esolangs. 13:59:54 AnMaster: i don't think so... well, with an exception of funge-98. 14:01:00 AnMaster: what's PTIA? 14:01:37 PITA = Pain in the Back (you can figure out what the last word should be yourself 14:01:38 ) 14:01:56 ah, okay. 14:02:36 could you give me actual example? i cannot imagine such one. 14:02:38 lifthrasiir, also, doesn't null byte collide with how EOF is handled? That is: , returns 0 on EOF 14:02:55 lifthrasiir, what about underload? Though that one doesn't have input... 14:03:17 I think it would be hard in Taxi too 14:03:22 AnMaster: byte-oriented I/O should sufficient, i think. 14:03:45 not universal though 14:03:49 (as you pointed out) 14:04:01 lifthrasiir, which several of esolangs lack. Some have printable char ones, some have whole string ones. and some lack IO at all of course 14:04:33 hmm. 14:04:35 lifthrasiir, what about this: Split the thing in two parts 14:04:42 One frontend, and one backend 14:04:50 with proper mapping? 14:04:54 the frontend could be replaced to fit the type of IO used 14:05:04 it basically just defines encoding scheme 14:05:14 the backend implements the actual functions and calls 14:05:27 so frontend should be called "protocol" probably 14:05:31 rather than "frontend" 14:05:43 lifthrasiir, see what I mean? 14:06:01 then if language can't output null bytes you can use a different protocol or such 14:06:02 that is what i'm considering now, but i have no idea about I/O based on printable character only. 14:06:43 and that'd be quite hard to find the good protocol for them. 14:06:53 lifthrasiir, I remember seeing some esolang that you couldn't print chars not in the source in, and where chars in source had to be printable (with exception of newline) 14:07:04 don't remember name though... 14:07:33 (for example, how about invocation sequence? PLEASEENABLEEXEVERSION0? :p) 14:08:00 lifthrasiir, that would probably have to be defined by the protocol yes 14:08:13 seems too hard. 14:08:17 hm... 14:08:23 protocol would need to define: 14:08:31 activation sequence 14:08:44 how to call function. 14:08:54 encoding/decoding of function calls and their parameters 14:09:45 and how to retrieve the return value, of course. 14:09:53 yes of course 14:10:16 lifthrasiir, I guess that always using STDIO would be a good idea 14:10:37 for function call? 14:10:47 for talking to process in general? 14:11:05 I mean. Most langs that can talk with anything in any way have stdio 14:11:13 yes, that's intended 14:11:15 those that doesn't have stdio tends to lack, uh tcp and such too 14:11:28 it would however be funny with an esolang with tcp but no stdio support 14:11:40 and I/O thingy are for doing arbitrary I/O with _only_ stdio. 14:11:52 (i.e. remapping stdin/stdout to arbitrary source/sink) 14:12:22 lifthrasiir, yeah. Anyway parameters could have to be encoded as ASCII or whatever. 14:13:07 The open mode is ORed value of the following flags: <-- hm I guess that is ok if protocol part could read it as ascii and then convert to integer 14:13:13 or similiar 14:13:40 the trick is leaving enough freedom for the the protocol module without making it too freeform and complex 14:13:47 which I agree isn't easy to pull off 14:13:48 bbl 14:15:12 maybe i have to encode byte as integer followed by one space, like Funge "." command. 14:26:24 BeholdMyGlory: is #<$+1?=[4]<$+1?=[3] valid migol code? 14:27:56 ohnoes... 14:28:14 i extended the view of an array of 120000 items in firebug... :/ 14:30:12 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 14:31:03 well, that was invalid, thus general statement is form of TARGET{<[OP]VALUE}[?OP VALUE]. 14:31:19 (guess what? i'm trying to make migol interpreter.) 15:08:53 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:33:25 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:42:59 So, AMD has 6 core chips now. 15:43:24 ehird: That means the uberrig has an additional 16 cores. :p 15:50:21 lifthrasiir: what language? C(++)? 15:50:28 C. 15:53:21 Ok, just be prepared that the specification is going to change a bit in the near future, regarding I/O 15:54:13 BeholdMyGlory: exactly what? i'm curious. 15:54:15 how* 15:54:42 I have no idea how it's going to work 15:54:58 I don't really remember, I'll have to wait 'till MigoMipo gets online 15:55:49 ha. 15:56:59 IIRC hex numbering will be introduced (with x prefix, should be valid everywhere where decimal numbers are), and the syntax was something in the lines of &(number1)/(number2) 15:57:40 Where (number1) is a number related to a command (input, output), and (number2) is a pointer to an array of memory slots which the command may use 15:58:14 E.g. printing and supplying &id/3 (I don't remember the particular ID), would print the char at cell 3 15:58:36 Also, I believe output will be manually flushed, although I'm not 100% certain 15:59:29 -!- mtd has joined. 15:59:29 woah. 16:01:20 1<48,2<60,3<49,4<44,...,71<62,72<91,73<91,74<48,75<93,76<93,0<1,[0]>-,'<>,[[0]]>-,',>,0<$+1,#<$-5?<>[[0]],0<1,[[0]]>,0<$+1,#<$-2?<>[[0]] 16:01:24 simple quine. 16:01:54 (i recall the feeling of programming in kipple...) 16:02:41 Heh, I was trying to create a quine in Migol, but never succeeded 16:02:52 But then I don't really have much experience of quines 16:03:28 is that really a working quine? :O add that to the wiki! 16:03:59 yes! :p 16:04:07 "..."? 16:04:39 FireFly: well, many quines have general structure; storing the data, printing that data twice in the different representation. 16:05:08 in this example, 1<48,...76<93 sets up the memory to contain the following code. 16:05:31 Ah 16:05:57 and the following code prints the memory once in form of "addr that's all. quite simple. 16:07:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:10:05 -!- inurinternet has joined. 16:11:39 Yeah, quines are rather simple. Fun, though. 16:13:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:19:35 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 16:21:05 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:25:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:25:17 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 16:26:28 -!- Slereah has quit ("Leaving"). 16:27:36 -!- inurinternet has joined. 16:39:29 lifthrasiir: any reason why you put the Migol examples on the talk page rather than in the main article? 16:39:46 oerjan: i'm not sure the interpreter is finished. 16:39:53 ah 16:40:02 maybe wait a bit then 16:40:23 at least migol09.jar works, but the specification is quite vague in some area, like EOF handling. 16:40:37 * oerjan will see if the formatting trick he used for the /// quine works for the Migol quine too 16:40:50 i've also surprised when newline follows null character 16:45:21 what the, it doesn't 16:46:38 putting it in doesn't give a good line wrap with the /// one 16:47:10 * oerjan wonders if this is very browser dependent 16:47:18 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:48:22 Ah, sorry for the incoherent URLs to the Migol interpreter, by the way 16:48:34 I need to structure my stuff better 16:51:36 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 16:51:52 My idea is that, for a "complete" platform, 3 things are needed: 1. Algorithms, 2.Data structures and 3. I/O. 16:52:06 1 and 2 can be done in Migol. Sort of. 16:52:34 MigoMipo: hello. 16:52:39 When I/O is done, it should be possibly to write, for example, a HTTP server in Migol. 16:53:09 by the way, advanced I/O is missing in many, possibly most esolangs; they only provide standard input and output. 16:53:35 lifthrasiir: Yes, but advanced I/O makes it more interesting. 16:53:49 The fact that most esolangs lack it makes it even cooler. 16:54:11 I still believe we should keep a lighter version 16:54:19 i agree on FireFly too. 16:54:39 But I still find the idea with heavier I/O interesting, so it could be a separate version? 16:54:56 Sure, I could have a Migol Standard Console Edition and a Migol Bloated Enterprise Edition. 16:55:02 :D 16:56:01 Obviously all esolangs should have an FFI. 16:56:10 MigoMipo: first thing i would suggest is replacing "value>" output statement with "[@] Which reminds me: screw PSOX. C FFI via stdio. :p 16:56:27 and by natural extension, you can select the I/O target with "@ :p 16:59:39 hmm defend9 seems to be a bit too large for my bf joust debugger 17:00:08 -!- inurinternet has joined. 17:01:01 jix: are you also not managing to avoid expanding ()* and ({})% 17:01:03 hmm i need to make some of this stuff lazy evaluating then i think... 17:01:14 seems to be a common affliction around here 17:01:24 oerjan: i could but then evaluation would be slow 17:01:35 oh? 17:01:43 why in the world would it be slow 17:01:45 because i'd have to keep a stack instead of linear instruction pointer 17:01:57 a stack of loop iteration counts 17:02:12 which can't be (without real continuations) the native stack 17:03:17 because you are doing two programs simultaneously... 17:04:03 i don't know about such things. is a manually maintained stack really that much slower? 17:04:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:04:43 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:07:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("Brain stubbornly refuses to think about programming"). 17:11:25 MigoMipo: ah, also is that newline is followed by null character intended? 17:13:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:15:33 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:20:27 lifthrasiir: I implemented the interpreter in Java, and it reads input directly from System.in. 17:20:40 Unfortunately, newline characters are included. 17:21:04 hmm, you mean you intended "foobar\0baz\0" or so? 17:21:07 The interpreter adds the null characters when the input buffern is empty. 17:22:07 lifthrasiir: Yup, I thought it would make sense to end input with 0. 17:22:15 then how about EOF? 17:22:18 How does BF handle that? 17:22:32 MigoMipo: various, but doesn't use null character at all. 17:22:36 Hmm... 17:22:38 since it also deals with binary input. 17:22:56 (and some interpreter sets the current cell zero if EOF is encountered) 17:23:26 I want Migol to be able to handle binary input too, but it probably don't. 17:24:11 "It don't" :( 17:24:31 * MigoMipo fails @ grammar 17:29:22 Your internal parser must have some interesting BNF. 17:31:10 I don't use BNF at all. 17:31:25 The parsing is made using entirely regular expressions. 17:31:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 17:31:37 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:31:49 Well, that explains why your internal parser is broken. 17:32:15 :( 17:32:32 I'm *damned* sure that English doesn't have a regular grammar. 17:33:01 Hell, it might be an unrestricted grammar. 17:33:11 Meaning that it needs a Turing machine to parse. 17:33:16 Aaha, you talked about English. 17:33:24 Yuh. 17:36:39 i thought a grammar was some kind of high-level specification for a *fixed* language 17:36:49 how can English have a grammar? 17:37:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_grammar 17:37:10 shhh :P 17:43:10 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success). 17:43:30 -!- inurinternet has joined. 17:51:05 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 18:00:57 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:06:46 English has a stochastic regular grammar. 18:07:40 You can tell it's not general context free by the fact that "that that that that that that that that that that that that is is is is is is is is is is is is" is not a valid sentence. 18:07:58 kerlo_: No, it certainly is not a regular grammar. 18:08:11 A hint: the regular grammars are a subset of the context free grammars. 18:08:12 ;) 18:08:48 What makes you think it certainly is not? 18:09:15 If it's not a context free grammar, it certainly can't be a regular grammar. 18:09:24 I said "general". 18:09:29 Maybe I should have said something else. 18:09:31 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 18:09:33 Like "non-regular". 18:09:50 Now you're just being confusing. 18:09:51 -!- impomatic has left (?). 18:09:55 Anyway, okay. Regular grammars are to O(x) as context-free grammars are to O(x^2) as English grammar is to O(x log x). 18:10:21 Do you happen to got by BadAnalogyGuy on /.? 18:10:23 s/got/go/ 18:10:41 That's not a bad analogy, it's just incomprehensible. 18:11:04 So it's a *terrible* analogy. Got it. 18:11:23 What I meant by that is that English is like a regular grammar except it can keep a stack of depth approximately proportional to the log of the length of the sentence. 18:12:00 Which is a subset of the context-free grammars, probably, but a superset of the regular grammars. 18:12:29 Which means it's not at all a regular grammar. Or context-free. 18:12:53 Perhaps a context-sensitive grammar. 18:12:54 Being able to keep a stack of depth approximately proportional to the log of the length of the sentence makes it not context-free? 18:13:13 That implies context. ;) 18:13:23 I was under the impression that context-free grammars had stacks. 18:14:08 Like the grammar ::= "(" ")" | "[" "]" | epsilon. That obviously has a stack. 18:14:42 Ah, yes. English isn't context-free, but not for that reason... 18:15:10 Indeed, English will always have its irregularities. 18:15:18 kerlo_: but you can have a stack that is linear with the length i think.... 18:15:20 And incontextfreeities. 18:15:24 (in english) 18:15:34 jix: not if you want people to understand you. 18:16:36 kerlo_: but that is a stupid restriction 18:16:52 People being able to understand you? No, it's not. :-P 18:17:00 as you can't formalize it in any sane way i'd say 18:17:12 I don't think you can formalize English in any sane way. 18:17:32 Yes you can. Just grab a Turing machine. 18:17:37 Oh, and go insane. 18:17:41 That helps a lot. 18:17:55 Making theories about it, on the other hand, is easy for both English and understanding of English. 18:18:00 * kerlo_ rings a Fibonacci bell. 18:18:10 (For loose definitions of "easy".) 18:18:49 * kerlo_ ponders English phrases with large stacks. 18:19:15 what about garden path sentences? 18:19:25 * kerlo_ ponders garden path sentences. 18:19:43 like "the old man the boat" 18:22:23 "The old man..." has multiple parsings, I guess, and you have to keep track of them. 18:23:08 * kerlo_ opens up lynx and searches for garden path sentences. 18:23:30 "Welcome to Xubuntu"? I had no idea I was running that. 18:24:04 yep, the major problem is that english appears to be outside of DCFL 18:25:54 DCFL? 18:26:09 Ah. 18:26:11 deterministic context free languages 18:26:11 * kerlo_ opens Wikipedia in Lynx and sees lots of "v o d o e". 18:26:19 can be parsed with a deterministic stack automaton 18:26:24 tetha: I expanded it after hitting enter. 18:26:30 hehe 18:26:44 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:28:46 Anyway, the only stack-expanding word that comes to mind is the 'that' of 'I want that you come'. 18:28:59 * kerlo_ immediately realizes he's using 's instead of "s. 18:30:36 and this opens the doors for mayhem like "i want that you want that i want that you want that i come" 18:35:38 -!- olsner has joined. 18:36:31 That's not nearly as stack-expanding as it could be. 18:36:43 It can be treated linearly. 18:47:06 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:58:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:59:31 kerlo_: N-buffalo sentences, though... 18:59:58 Also linear, I think. 19:00:12 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:00:23 Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo. I think. 19:00:34 If that's not right, it's because I picked a non-linear way to expand. 19:00:52 If that's not right, it's because I was standing on the shoulders of giants. 19:01:51 And now for a definition! "Linear" might mean "either left-branching or right-branching", as opposed to both-ways-branching. 19:02:14 Heck. Is there a regular expression that produces the N-buffalo sentences for all N? 19:02:30 Regular expressions are totally linear. 19:03:17 so, regular expressions can parse halflife2? 19:03:52 Don't be ridiculous. Exponential decay is exponential, not linear. 19:06:49 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 19:14:17 -!- tombom has joined. 19:19:23 Whoa. IPA in lynx displays as SAMPA. 19:20:27 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:20:38 No, Kirshenbaum. 19:22:23 kerlo_: Whoa. 19:25:30 And the missing part of that sentence is "on Wikipedia". 19:25:55 (Congratulations to all who guessed correctly.) 19:27:12 I'm trying to find the ä sound, as in "Autistic law, Paw, walks tall." 19:35:54 "The saw caught the law." 19:36:12 Apparently it's O in Kirshenbaum. 19:36:13 -!- inurinternet has joined. 19:37:24 IPA, it's a turned c. 19:39:12 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:39:21 -!- tetha has joined. 20:08:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:11:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:17:12 Heck. Is there a regular expression that produces the N-buffalo sentences for all N? 20:17:29 can you define the N-buffalo sentences for us? 20:18:34 * oerjan googles just in case 20:22:36 you mean "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo."? 20:23:01 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 20:23:26 {[buffalo from Buffalo] that [buffalo from Buffalo] [bully]} bully {[buffalo from Buffalo] that [buffalo from Buffalo] [bully]} 20:23:51 oerjan: In English, a sentence composed of N instances of "buffalo" is a valid sentence for any value of N greater than 0. 20:24:09 i know that 20:24:09 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 20:24:25 Those are N-buffalo sentences. 20:24:26 that was implied 20:24:42 it doesn't tell _how_ you make them, especially with correct capitalization 20:24:42 Then why did you ask for a definition? 20:24:57 Ah. 20:25:13 Tad bit more complex to do with correct capitalisation. 20:25:15 pikhq: i need a context-free grammar first if i'm supposed to tell if it's regular... 20:27:01 Yuh. 20:29:46 Okay. In "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo", the production rules are... 20:29:59 ::= "buffalo" 20:30:10 ::= "Buffalo" 20:30:19 hmmm my bfjoust debugger starts to get usable :) 20:30:24 ::= "buffalo" 20:30:34 ::= "buffalo" 20:30:36 (fin) 20:31:02 Doesn't cover the 1-buffalo sentence. 20:31:07 Of course, this leads to silly regexes like /(Buffalo )* buffalo buffalo./ 20:31:27 Buffalo Buffalo buffalo are just Buffalo buffalo. 20:31:40 kerlo_: i don't feel a Buffalo prefix can be repeated 20:31:42 can't you adjust the rules for that? 20:32:09 kerlo_: Buffalo Buffalo buffalo == Bully buffalo from buffalo. 20:32:12 i suggest ::= "Buffalo buffalo" instead 20:32:17 s/buffalo./Buffalo./ 20:32:48 couldn't you do 20:32:48 ::= "Buffalo" 20:32:48 ::= 20:33:14 and define restriced noun phrase accordingly? 20:33:14 Perhaps. 20:33:38 ::= "buffalo> 20:33:51 ::= "Buffalo" 20:34:02 ::= "buffalo" 20:34:10 ::= 20:34:20 ::= "buffalo" 20:34:29 ::= "buffalo" 20:34:31 (fin) 20:34:41 er, why the second last one? 20:34:47 ::= "Buffalo" 20:35:39 i don't see why rnp needs to contain anything but "buffalo" 20:37:02 becomes the same strings anyway 20:37:30 so: 20:37:40 ::= "buffalo" 20:38:05 ::= "Buffalo buffalo" | "buffalo" | "buffalo" 20:39:52 the last production of is the only thing that might make it non-regular 20:41:27 hm cannot produce an even number of lower-case buffaloes 20:43:11 And all this neglects that a n-buffalo sentence is initially capitalised. 20:43:21 ah. 20:43:47 that's not going to change regularity though, i think 20:44:00 Nah. Just changes the specifics. 20:47:26 !bfjoust wiggle1 (>[-[-[-[+]]]]+>[+[+[+[-]]]]-)*40 20:47:34 Score for jix__wiggle1: 29.5 20:48:08 -!- jix_ has changed nick to jix. 20:48:18 !bfjoust wiggle1 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40 20:48:26 Score for jix_wiggle1: 32.9 20:51:37 ::= ( "buffalo")*, ::= "Buffalo buffalo" | "buffalo" 20:54:21 it's like parenthesis matching if you could change any ( to a ) 20:54:29 !bfjoust wiggle1 (>)*5(>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40 20:54:37 Score for jix_wiggle1: 14.3 20:54:46 !bfjoust wiggle1 (>)*2(>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40 20:54:54 Score for jix_wiggle1: 24.3 20:55:00 !bfjoust wiggle1 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40 20:55:08 Score for jix_wiggle1: 29.5 20:56:47 Wiggle waggle shake and 21:00:53 hm... 21:00:54 !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]+)*15 21:01:03 Score for jix_wiggle2: 25.1 21:02:45 !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*15" 21:02:53 Score for jix_wiggle2: 20.1 21:03:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:04:17 kerlo_: (Buffalo buffalo)^n from the start cannot contain the end of any non-trivial noun phrase. it will take about n/2 "buffalo" just to end those, which cannot be encoded in finite state. Thus not regular. I think. 21:04:55 maybe add one more Buffalo first to take care of capitalization. 21:05:01 !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]-)*15 21:05:10 Score for jix_wiggle2: 19.4 21:05:14 :( 21:06:05 s/about/at least/ 21:06:51 !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]-)*15 21:07:00 Score for jix_wiggle2: 26.7 21:07:38 hm make that n 21:08:05 !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]-)*10 21:08:13 Score for jix_wiggle2: 34.0 21:09:05 oerjan: as soon as you show that you need to remember a number of character which depends on the input somehow, you are done, as it is not possible in finite state, so n or n/2 or something like that is only a technical detail 21:10:08 !bfjoust wiggle2 >+>+>->->->(>[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]-)*9 21:10:16 Score for jix_wiggle2: 38.9 21:10:38 tetha: of course 21:13:54 oh what i'm doing is basically what shade is doing... 21:13:58 only that shade is doing it better... 21:14:10 and yeah my debugger is usefull by now 21:14:28 but will have to polish it a bit before releasing 21:14:45 and maybe do something that allows monster programs to be "compiled" faster 21:16:54 no wait i think i'm doing it better... now 21:17:08 except i don't use enough steps 21:19:46 mm, genetic algorithms + bf joust 21:23:18 there still remains the question of whether those buffaloes can be herded into a deterministic PDA, or even just an unambiguous grammar... 21:23:59 yacc-magicians can answer that better than I can 21:24:41 yaccs, buffaloes, what's the difference 21:27:12 i think this language has no non-trivial forbidden prefix 21:28:53 hm... 21:32:02 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:32:56 -!- cherez1 has joined. 21:33:09 -!- cherez1 has left (?). 21:33:57 !bfjoust wiggle2 >-(>+)*4>(>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(]->([+)*5[(-)*6[-)*2(])*8+(>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8-)*3>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8+(>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8-)*2>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(]-(>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8+)*2>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*7)*2]+>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8+>([-)*5[(+)*6[+]->([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8(+>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8)*2->([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8->([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8(->([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8)*2(+>([+)*5[(-)*6[-])*2(])*7(+>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8->([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8)*2+>([+)*5 21:34:03 Score for jix_wiggle2: 0.0 21:34:08 huh 21:34:10 ^^ 21:34:55 ([+)*5 is not particularly useful at the end 21:35:08 ah it got cut then 21:35:25 this BFJoust thing is absurd. >| 21:36:21 So is your FACE 21:36:31 <3 21:36:39 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://pastebin.com/pastebin.php?dl=d44ba4d2 21:36:47 Score for jix_wiggle2: 24.1 21:37:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:38:15 Did something happen to the scoring again? 21:38:25 seems strange to me 21:38:31 but otoh i'm changing quite a lot in my program with each try 21:38:49 the 0.0 was irc cutting of my program 21:39:51 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://pastebin.com/pastebin.php?dl=d1fe166c4 21:39:59 Score for jix_wiggle2: 36.0 21:40:15 unbalanced ()* looks hard to read... 21:41:37 * oerjan sees a ([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8 in there 21:41:57 well but the interpreter accepts it 21:42:01 and it's program generated anyway 21:42:05 that's not even balanced 21:42:16 as i said it was cut by irc 21:42:29 jix: only because GregorR-L couldn't manage to do the efficient ({}) without expanding 21:42:35 oerjan: i know 21:42:39 i mean that fragment 21:42:53 and the only reason i did this at all was to get the code short enough for irc 21:43:01 oh 21:43:30 i thought ({})% was shorter than splitting it up... 21:43:32 hm 21:43:44 well i don't have ({})% in my code 21:43:54 i just did some repeated string => ()* replacement 21:44:03 the code itself is completely unrolled 21:44:12 (a{b}c)%n vs. (a)*nb(c)*n 21:44:13 oh 21:46:33 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.org/p/aWqgSqGndb/txt 21:46:44 Score for jix_wiggle2: 39.6 21:48:49 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.org/p/azHq8yTRkb 21:48:52 whoops 21:48:56 Score for jix_wiggle2: 0.0 21:49:02 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.org/p/azHq8yTRkb/txt 21:49:11 Score for jix_wiggle2: 42.1 21:57:28 -!- tombom_ has joined. 21:57:38 -!- adu has joined. 21:57:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:58:04 oerjan: I was looking for a good subset. 21:59:23 kerlo_: well then Buffalo (buffalo)* should do nicely... 21:59:33 Oh? 21:59:47 hm wait 21:59:54 there was that even/odd thing 22:00:18 Buffalo buffalo buffalo. Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo. Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo. 22:00:22 Those are all valid. 22:00:42 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aBPObTXOlb/txt 22:00:46 ah yes 22:00:52 Score for jix_wiggle2: 30.4 22:01:01 the capitalization neutralizes the even/odd distinction 22:01:33 the odd ones don't really use the city 22:01:41 the even ones only once, first 22:03:21 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aJLB4WVu9/txt 22:03:26 any instance of buffalo as a noun can be replaced by three copies 22:03:30 Score for jix_wiggle2: 30.8 22:03:31 what's the shortest Buffalo sentence that's ambiguous? 22:03:38 (the first two still being nouns) 22:04:03 the five one at least 22:04:07 ais523: ^ 22:04:34 oerjan: yes, agreed 22:04:44 the five sentence has ambiguous associativity 22:05:17 the four one only if we ignore capitalization 22:08:02 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aVY5DjSAD/txt 22:08:11 Score for jix_wiggle2: 45.2 22:10:34 ooh, Firefox 3 just overtook IE6 22:10:53 hmmm how do defend6 and 7 work? 22:11:09 jix: tripwire, followed by attempting to trap the opponent in a [+] or [-] loop 22:11:09 the 2*Buffalo sentence is ambiguous in english. 22:11:11 just so you know. 22:11:26 ais523: and how does it win? 22:11:30 7 uses decoys, apart from that there's no difference 22:11:38 and it wins by leaving the opponent stuck in [+] or [-] on its flag 22:11:45 -!- adu has quit. 22:11:50 psygnisfive: we were using kerlo's grammar 22:11:55 alternating between defending the flag (preventing it being 0 twice in a row), and attacking 22:12:04 so it gradually zeroes all possible enemy flags while defending its own 22:12:08 psygnisfive: As is the 1-Buffalo sentence. 22:12:23 pikhq: is that even a sentence? 22:12:27 the 1-buffalo sentence isnt ambiguous unles you accept fragments. 22:12:28 Yes. 22:12:31 you'd need an exclamation mark, at least 22:12:37 its an imperative 22:12:55 "Buffalo." as in "You go buffalo someone" 22:13:06 but theres no other interpretation of it as a sentence. 22:13:17 "Buffalo!" 22:13:25 As in the city or the animal. 22:13:41 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aJlGw7KYJ/txt 22:13:43 as in not a sentence. 22:13:49 Score for jix_wiggle2: 19.6 22:13:53 thats a sentence fragment 22:13:56 specifically its just an NP. 22:14:09 jix: go back to the old one, and use a different name for test programs 22:14:21 it is a test program 22:14:25 -!- tombom has quit (Connection timed out). 22:14:26 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom. 22:14:40 until know i got better score with each edit or each edit sequence of two 22:14:54 jix: a program that comes fourth is not a test program, even if it was meant to be 22:14:56 *now 22:15:11 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aVY5DjSAD/txt 22:15:20 Score for jix_wiggle2: 40.5 22:15:27 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:15:48 but isn't it bad to fill the hill with test programs? 22:15:52 also, it's interesting to see how speedy19 has dropped off and speedy0 hasn't; they were neck and neck (although against different programs) last I looked 22:15:52 that just happen to be above average? 22:15:58 psygnisfive: It's a minor sentence and an exclamation. ;) 22:16:07 and they won't fill the hill if they aren't good 22:16:09 (or I'm just wrong) 22:16:12 and if they are, they don't count as test programs 22:16:13 its not a minor sentence, its a bare NP. 22:16:33 ais523: how should i know before ^^ it's not that i test them locally 22:16:43 there is no such thing as a "minor sentence" anyway. 22:16:57 maybe i should do that... 22:17:37 * pikhq wonders if psygnisfive has never heard someone exclaim at seeing something with a single word. 22:17:53 ais523: So did the scoring change again or did the programs just change so much as to re-mess-up the rankings? 22:17:53 jix: well, one possibility upon submitting a test program and it doing very well is to clear it from the hill with <, then submitting an identical program with a non-test name 22:17:53 i have seen people exclaim things, pikhq, but that doesnt make it a sentence 22:17:59 Deewiant: just program change 22:18:02 the hill is rather dynamic 22:18:10 * psygnisfive wonders if pikhq realizes he's arguing with a linguist 22:18:21 I'm somewhat surprised how much monorail dropped 22:18:27 I think your definition of a sentence sucks. 22:18:31 From 6.x points to -1.1 22:18:36 i think you dont know what a sentence is. 22:18:41 * oerjan wonders if psygnisfive realizes he's arguing with a pikhq 22:19:04 oerjan: good point. never argue with amateurs who don't realize they're amateurs. :( 22:19:26 Oh, I realise I'm an amateur. I just like being contrary. 22:19:46 * oerjan didn't know he was making a point 22:19:56 -!- adu has joined. 22:20:15 now pikhq, see, if you WEREN'T an amateur, you would be capable of saying something like, oh "well sure, its an NP, or it LOOKS that way, but really its a sentence that had the NP evacuated from the VP and then had the rest of the content elided!" 22:20:23 or something similar 22:21:21 hmmm now i have to add a nontrappable [] 22:22:17 does the interpreter support (foo(bar{baz}fn)%10ord)*10 ? 22:22:30 or can't i put ({})% inside ()* 22:22:50 * pikhq goes on calling "Buffalo!" a sentence because it works as one in the minds of everyone but a linguist 22:22:59 jix: putting ({})% inside ()* ought to work 22:23:04 actually it doesnt work in the mind of everyone 22:23:04 (bloody prescriptionist. :p) 22:23:08 as an imperative, it works fine 22:23:28 but noone accepts "buffalo" as anything other than a bare NP in the other interpretation 22:23:48 ais523: hrrm trapping someone in [+] or [-] is unfair ;) 22:23:49 furthermore, you cant be prescriptivist about the structural analyses you make because they're analyses, not observations. 22:23:52 jix: why? 22:24:01 thirdly, call me a prescriptivist again and ill hunt you down and rape you. 22:24:03 Funny, parses to me as "(Look,) bufallo!" 22:24:07 ais523: (not serious... hence the smiley) 22:24:14 defend9 can trap people in about 12 different sorts of loops; but it isn't doing as well for some reason 22:24:18 ais523: it's just that as soon as you're trapped... it's to late 22:24:19 maybe because it's having trouble detecting 22:24:28 Erm. 22:24:34 "(Look,) buffalo!" 22:24:36 pikhq: thats the interpretation of the utterance, yes 22:24:41 but that does not make it a sentence 22:24:59 there is this thing called pragmatics, and the maxim of relevance, which allows people to calculate an enormous amount of stuff 22:25:52 Okay, so you're saying it's not a sentence, but our brains are absurdly flexible with it's handling of language, so it manages to (usually) work, basically. 22:25:53 and in this particular case, a bare NP + maxim of relevance can be interpreted (CONTEXTUALLY) as intending to communicate the existence of the NP. 22:26:09 pikhq: not absurdly flexible, just sufficiently flexible. 22:26:43 you can observe this by considering the enormous range of contexts in which just "Buffalo" is acceptable as a response to, say, a question 22:27:05 where the interpretation of the bare NP, as an utterance, is NOT an assertion of the existence of a buffalo 22:27:08 e.g. 22:27:16 "What should we have for dinner?" "Buffalo wings." 22:27:23 "Where should we go on vacation?" "Buffalo" 22:27:26 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/ahoQwZcHz/txt 22:27:31 I think I'm just going to hate natural languages for making less sense than programming languages and shaddup. 22:27:33 "What species is that?" "Buffalo." 22:27:34 etc. 22:27:39 Score for jix_wiggle3: 22.1 22:28:03 pikhq: if you learned some linguistics you'd realize that they make a whole lot of sense, actually. 22:28:17 but this stuff about bare NPs and such isnt so much a linguistic fact as a human fact 22:28:40 because its just part of a broader cognitive capacity that we have for analyzing peoples actions 22:28:41 Screw you and your knowing-stuff. :p 22:29:21 natural language, by itself, is quite elegant and beautiful. 22:30:15 afk cooking crepes. 22:30:39 also, pikhq, learn about modern syntax. its cool. 22:30:50 http://www.wellnowwhat.net/blog/?p=93 22:31:15 Guess I've got something to read after I finish Dr. McNinja, then. 22:31:18 \o/ 22:32:39 the part on structuralism and formal languages you probably already understand so you could probably skip it 22:32:53 atleast read the structuralism part 22:33:30 Alright. Thanks for the suggestion of something to read that'll make me sound *slightly* less ignorant about this. 22:34:01 well, the series im writing is really just about contemporary syntax frameworks 22:34:20 it doesnt discuss detailed issues, nor does it really look at ling methodology 22:34:39 Thus "slightly". 22:34:43 yah. 22:34:47 its cool tho. 22:34:48 anyway 22:34:49 afk 22:34:56 Ĝis. 22:34:57 haha wiggle2 is like 5 times as large as the next smaller one... 22:35:13 and wiggle3 is almost 8 times as large as wiggle2 22:36:02 * ais523 reads wiggle2 22:36:17 err, wow 22:36:22 are you sure that can't be abbreviated? 22:36:36 not that efficiently i guess 22:36:40 a) i'm randomizing stuff 22:37:09 b) i have no point b right now 22:37:16 ah, ok 22:38:08 at least the recursive pattern isn't in a way it would be obvious for me on how to efficiently and syntactic legally write this abbreviated 22:38:24 jix: was your question about defend6/7 because you wanted to find a way to beat them? 22:38:35 yeah 22:38:41 (I notice lots of [+] and [-] in your program) 22:38:45 by next week the top-of-the-hill BF Joust programs should need to be sentient. 22:39:02 actually, sentient BF Joust might be interesting 22:39:05 humans playing 22:39:14 haha 22:39:20 on your turn, you can do + - < > or look at whether the current tape element is 0 22:39:33 that would be awesomeish 22:39:43 could be rather boring, I imagine 22:40:33 people play rock paper scissors... 22:40:58 hmmm most of the code of wiggle2 will never be executed 22:41:26 but i try to minimize the amount of times i have to go through a long run of ]]] 22:42:48 hm you could need rather _huge_ programs if you try to avoid ]] 22:43:05 replacing loops by nesting ifs... 22:43:19 basically that's what i'm doing 22:43:42 the outer loops really are just ifs... because the closing condition will always be false 22:44:20 a variation without that problem would be to say that ] takes no time, but jumps to _before_ the corresponding [ 22:44:32 jix: "always" is generally a bad thing to think in BF Joust 22:44:42 after the first 10 or so cycles, anything could happen 22:44:47 ais523: yeah 22:45:19 so maybe i'm better off checking it twice before doing the shortcut recursion stuff 22:45:20 hm wait that may not work 22:45:35 oerjan: won't 22:45:53 it's just the same 22:45:58 oerjan: basically ] should skip to the next non ] instruction in case of 0 for me 22:48:28 -!- adu has quit. 22:52:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:53:40 TBH, I think allowing BF Joust to have a conditional goto instruction wouldn't change the game at all, but would make programs a lot shorter 23:02:08 -!- ehird has left (?). 23:02:28 -!- ehird has joined. 23:02:32 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird_. 23:10:36 06:46 AnMaster: GregorR-L, fan broke. Going to get the fan replaced today. 23:10:36 06:47 AnMaster doesn't trust himself to to that, thus going to leave it to pros. 23:10:40 Replacing a computer fan is hard? 23:10:41 Srsly? 23:10:52 06:48 AnMaster: GregorR-L, and 450 SEK for both new fan AND replacement of it. 23:10:54 that's ridiculously expensive 23:10:55 fan = $10 23:11:08 06:51 AnMaster: so low end it doesn't even have a fan! 23:11:11 that's no indicator of low end 23:11:37 10:05 AnMaster: sure, there are sounds in English that aren't in Swedish (and vice versa) but that "chef" one didn't get those right. 23:11:40 it's ... not meant to. 23:12:14 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aXjcWArLU/txt 23:12:23 Score for jix_wiggle3: 22.0 23:12:49 haha wiggle3 now wins against the defends 23:12:54 -!- coppro has joined. 23:12:54 but looses otherwise 23:12:58 10:18 AnMaster: btw, I can't stand this 1280x1024 on 1400x1050 monitor thing.... So I'm going to be mostly afk 23:12:58 10:18 AnMaster: before I get a headache from it 23:13:00 10:18 GregorR-L: Wow, that's extreme. 23:13:03 your eyes are broken 23:13:23 Nighty 23:13:44 10:37 AnMaster: Asztal, but anyway good cable helps. Usually thicker cables are better. Probably due to the extra thickness being more shielding 23:13:46 hmmm idea on how to break defend... 23:13:49 snaaaaaaaaaake oiiiiiiiiiiiiil 23:13:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:14:00 ah defeat 23:14:07 *eh 23:14:13 13:01 AnMaster: PITA = Pain in the Back (you can figure out what the last word should be yourself 23:14:14 altruist 23:14:25 pain in the altruist? 23:14:49 14:42 pikhq: So, AMD has 6 core chips now. 23:14:49 14:43 pikhq: ehird: That means the uberrig has an additional 16 cores. :p 23:14:50 Nehalem-XE = 8 cores on one chip, iirc, and mobos w/ 4 sockets. 23:14:52 Beat that, bitchnizzle. 23:16:25 17:09 kerlo_: Anyway, okay. Regular grammars are to O(x) as context-free grammars are to O(x^2) as English grammar is to O(x log x). 23:16:29 Erm 23:16:32 Erm. 23:16:38 hoy goys 23:17:17 18:27 kerlo_: I'm trying to find the ä sound, as in "Autistic law, Paw, walks tall." 23:17:24 autistic law? i'm scared 23:17:26 *scared 23:19:47 21:22 pikhq goes on calling "Buffalo!" a sentence because it works as one in the minds of everyone but a linguist 23:19:53 * ehird_ goes on calling brainfuck not a programming language because etc 23:20:15 21:24 psygnisfive: thirdly, call me a prescriptivist again and ill hunt you down and rape you. 23:20:18 you like it that much? 23:20:24 >| 23:20:34 *facepalm* 23:20:46 er, what's that smiley? 23:20:51 no. 23:20:55 what? 23:21:07 which part is the mouth? 23:21:16 | 23:21:34 >|o 23:21:39 it's not a smiley, it's a hole body 23:21:41 *whole 23:21:52 your moms a hole body. 23:22:16 okay now i've logread 23:22:19 and read the responses to my logreading 23:22:22 lament: yes, pain in the altruist. 23:22:28 23:21 psygnisfive: your moms a hole body. 23:22:30 lolololololol 23:22:43 I THOUGHT IT WAS FUNNY TOO 23:22:48 !bfjoust antidefend1 ([>[>[-]+]+]+)*20 23:22:55 Score for jix_antidefend1: 15.6 23:23:13 !bfjoust bye < 23:23:19 Score for lament_bye: 0.0 23:23:23 haha, a *green*. 23:23:36 ↑ this basically means, well why no what 's the 23:24:48 psygnisfive: this is a sentence: the 23:24:51 * ehird_ watches psygnisfive squirm 23:24:56 hey why am I ehird_? 23:24:57 what happene 23:24:58 d 23:25:00 !bfjoust antidefend1 ([>[>[-.-.-.]+]+]+)*20 23:25:07 Score for jix_antidefend1: 17.8 23:25:11 15:02:28 --- join: ehird (n=ehird@208.78.103.223) joined #esoteric 23:25:11 15:02:32 --- nick: ehird -> ehird_ 23:25:13 you dared disagree with a linguist is what happened! 23:25:14 how queer 23:25:15 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 23:25:17 The the the The the. 23:25:27 thé 23:25:32 psygnisfive: actually i agree, "buffalo" isn't a sentence 23:25:33 i should have some tea. 23:25:39 lament: well there's probably a place called the 23:25:42 well, it CAN be 23:25:42 but unfortunately no such verb 23:25:45 its animperative 23:25:47 psygnisfive: well, yeah 23:25:49 but apart from that 23:25:51 but only an imperative 23:25:53 also, ehird 23:25:57 you agreed with me :( 23:26:00 linguist, but not very cunning 23:26:01 * psygnisfive huggles ehird 23:26:03 I LOVE YOU T_T 23:26:04 :( 23:26:07 T________________________________T 23:26:10 ... 23:26:16 lament: not very cunning at all. 23:26:22 SO YOU'RE NOT A 23:26:23 with defend6 and defend7 there is no way to not fall into the trap 23:26:29 anaing, definitely. 23:26:40 psygnisfive: cunninglinguist‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽ 23:26:45 well, cunning if its a transboy, but thats a different sort of thing. 23:26:46 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA 23:26:48 . 23:27:16 haha antidefend brought slowrush onto the top 23:27:33 ##compling has a bot that will say "Chomsky is cunnilingual" if you say "syntax" 23:27:59 do they all speak lojban in ##compling? 23:28:26 no. 23:28:30 they speak mostly german. 23:28:37 ach so 23:29:04 psygnisfive: no it doesn't 23:29:05 not ALWAYS. 23:29:13 well, no. it does it randomly 23:29:16 to be annoying. 23:29:22 well, less annoying 23:29:32 just below the threshold of "fucking kick this bot" 23:30:05 so, why 'syntax 23:30:05 ' 23:30:13 because chomsky is a syntactician. 23:30:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:32:11 well duh 23:32:24 thats all. 23:34:37 ais523: hi 23:34:46 hi 23:35:26 i have a giant reeses peanut butter cup. :T 23:35:42 well give it back to Reese or he'll go fe fi fo fum 23:36:03 D: 23:36:36 yay syntactic ambiguity. :D 23:37:10 psygnisfive: well without the 'a' 23:37:16 the a makes it pretty unambiguous 23:37:29 what? 23:37:56 well, not really. 23:37:56 i mean 23:38:01 haha, it's true :) 23:38:03 "a reese" could be a guy named reese. 23:38:06 nice bot 23:38:10 so a giant reese... 23:38:12 psygnisfive: well, sure 23:38:15 but that's very stretched 23:38:20 who cares 23:38:21 incidentally "rise" is a norwegian word for giant 23:38:24 *just like your butt etc* 23:38:32 very true 23:38:37 i have this enormous dildo, omg 23:38:58 thanks for that; we care. 23:39:05 np 23:45:48 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:47:00 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:53:06 !bfjoust foobar >>+>+>+[[<]>[+++[-]+>]<] 23:53:30 Score for jix_foobar: 3.7 23:54:17 [[Me: I want to see the one we always called the “Hell Paper” at Queen’s — the mandatory fourth-year paper. You know the one, where we prove P = NP? 23:54:17 New Girl: I did that! I proved P = NP! I placed near the top of the class, and the professor used my paper as an example!]] 23:54:22 http://www.joeydevilla.com/2003/04/07/what-happened-to-me-and-the-new-girl-or-the-girl-who-cried-webmaster/ 23:55:58 ?! 23:56:30 GregorR-L: Read the whole thing 23:59:42 ehird: you realize you just spoiled it? 23:59:48 oerjan: Yep. 23:59:49 a nice way to tell if someone's bullshitting 23:59:59 but of course, we all know the answer (P = 1 or N = 0)