00:17:45 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cupsys/+bug/255161 00:17:58 (it's funny reading that thread, seeing all the guesses people made as to what was going wrong) 00:19:38 why does cups even use file(1)? 00:23:08 and that is almost certainly the real WTF 00:25:03 oerjan: I just checked my full Oxford English Dictionary collection. Gullible is in there. <-- from when is that 00:25:06 it can't be recent 00:25:18 oerjan: ↑ 00:25:20 OMGROFLBBQ 00:26:17 ehird, I don't remember having said that. I might have. Would have been like at least half a year ago. 00:26:22 If not more. 00:26:26 * ehird dies laughing 00:26:50 ehird: as for cups using file, it may be deciding how to print it 00:26:55 yeah, I guess 00:27:05 ehird, what is so funny 00:27:13 AnMaster: *snigger* 00:27:32 GregorR: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:English_adjectives perhaps 00:27:37 ehird, I'm half asleep already. I understand jokes even less than usually now 00:27:46 converting plain text files to postscript, e.g. 00:27:48 teehehehheheeeeeeeee 00:28:19 apparently, it's confusing Erlang files with PostScript files created on Tuesdays <-- uh... For file(1) or what? 00:28:33 ................ 00:28:47 You are intractable. 00:28:50 AnMaster: read a couple of lines up 00:28:51 AnMaster: he was merely explaining what you would have said if you had been present 00:28:55 ah 00:29:10 wow. JAM file? 00:29:13 that is old 00:29:14 very old 00:29:15 oerjan: lololol 00:29:17 "explaining" 00:29:26 I have never seen an Erlang JAM file in fact 00:29:49 pointing out, then 00:31:16 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 00:31:42 hallollah 00:31:46 Since ages Erlang uses the BEAM VM. JAM VM is very very very old 00:31:54 like Sun workstation old 00:32:00 1994 or so possibly 00:32:06 psygnisfive: no, no, it's hall-eluj-ah 00:32:11 ais523, ^ 00:32:20 not if im palindroming "hallo"! 00:34:27 g, nim' ord'n i lap. 00:37:30 oerjan, ...? 00:38:14 AnMaster: go to bed, your brain is clearly not working :D 00:38:59 it never works! 00:39:00 oerjan, that isn't normal English (insert plain English joke here) 00:39:29 i couldn't find a way to make it normal english 00:39:41 it kept slipping, slipping... out of reach 00:40:06 * oerjan will not guarantee his brain is working either 00:40:10 oerjan, tell me when you are sane instead. 00:40:16 err 00:40:19 scratch that 00:40:26 AnMaster: ask me again in a couple years 00:40:35 tell me when you are less insane and more parsable? 00:40:42 (spelling for last word?) 00:40:52 i parsable perfectly fines 00:41:45 now my compiler no longer outputs most of the unused macros if they aren't used 00:41:54 like in() and out() 00:41:59 err 00:42:01 in() and o() 00:42:12 but it does output the unused macros if they are used, i hope 00:42:21 oerjan, ha 00:42:33 no, because then they are used macros being used 00:42:35 clearly 00:42:46 * oerjan looks around shiftily 00:43:00 oerjan, no no, that is another pass. 00:43:02 the shifter 00:43:17 haha: http://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=gullible&action=history 00:43:19 it looks around shiftily while doing a gnome sort 00:43:21 * oerjan rotates around himself 00:43:22 it's now on permanent semiprotection 00:43:43 ais523, what is the controversy over that word?... 00:43:47 I fail to see the issue 00:44:57 ais523: don't tell him 00:44:58 ais523, just lots of random spam? 00:45:00 this is great continuous fun 00:45:03 AnMaster: it's a fake word that someone invented 00:45:10 oerjan: i said DON'T TELL HIM 00:45:26 ehird: you are so mean sometimes 00:45:27 oerjan, aren't all words originally 00:45:59 anmaster: maybe! 00:46:13 no, most words develop from older words through regular sound changes 00:46:24 oerjan, yes. But *originally* 00:46:25 he said originally 00:46:43 oerjan, somehow the first older sound must have got started somehow 00:46:57 a lot of words also have onomatopoeic qualities 00:47:01 well those were obviously onomatopo.. 00:47:08 what psygnisfive said 00:47:17 tho some arent! 00:47:30 and there are lots of invented words. Like lots of terms in computer context. 00:47:38 and most of shakespeare. 00:47:41 some were based on previous terms used for other stuff yes 00:47:52 but that is only because the original onomatopoeia have been obscured through sound changes 00:47:53 most of modern english was invented by shakespeare as nonce words! 00:48:07 Qux! 00:48:08 oerjan, what about the word "house" 00:48:19 I can't think of a way that could be onomatopoeic, nor it's base. 00:48:29 AnMaster: that's obviously a very old word 00:48:33 yes it is clearly related to the Swedish "hus" 00:48:42 that's not old 00:48:46 haha 00:48:50 probably similiar in other Germanic languages 00:48:58 oerjan, sure. But somewhere it must have started 00:49:05 I'm just asking about the trace 00:49:08 swedish and english probably were not distinct 1500 years ago 00:49:09 proto-germanic *khusan 00:49:11 or so 00:49:14 of unknown origin! 00:49:31 oerjan, Swedish/Nordic and English did influence each other certainly 00:49:36 I'm well aware of this 00:49:42 so not related to romance "casa" then? 00:49:48 no. 00:49:59 haus probably derives from a shape name; 00:50:04 hut type shape... trapezoid 00:50:08 AnMaster: Try "common ancestor". 00:50:09 sort of thing 00:50:19 it could be related to casa tho. 00:50:26 pikhq, yes they do have that. But they also influenced each other after that 00:50:39 Oh, right. Old Norse influences. 00:50:46 Thus things like Beowulf. 00:50:52 old english and old norse were mutually intelligible. 00:50:52 :T 00:51:03 psygnisfive: Knew that. 00:51:13 pikhq, Vikings for example. And the other way too. These days we tend to copy English term instead 00:51:28 "the Late Latin word casa (cottage, small humble dwelling, hut) 00:51:32 "tape" has turned into "tejp", and that is rather recent iirc. 00:51:37 seems it's also unknown... 00:51:40 After all, they had kinda split off not too long ago in the days of Old English... 00:51:42 lots of other examples 00:52:42 AnMaster: tejp is a modern borrowing from english, surely 00:52:50 oerjan, as I said yes 00:52:51 duh 00:52:52 -_- 00:53:13 Heck I'm going for ehird here: >_< 00:53:14 oops 00:53:14 even 00:53:21 s/for// 00:53:47 btw about "gullible": http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=gullible 00:54:03 it's the rock/paper/scissors of annoying responses 00:54:18 oerjan, what is: ">_<"? 00:54:24 or what do you mean 00:54:45 rock/paper/scissors/lizard/spock 00:55:23 i mean if you respond to me like ehird does to you... 00:55:33 oerjan, hm 00:55:35 um that's backward 00:55:37 oerjan, anyway. 00:55:39 <_> 00:55:54 psygnisfive, Visit a doctor? 00:55:56 psygnisfive: you should get those eyes checked by 00:55:59 dammit 00:56:03 hahaha 00:56:20 oerjan, I said it first. 00:56:21 :P 00:56:28 thus dammit 00:56:41 oerjan, next time I should try to say "dammit" before you too 00:56:42 :/ 00:56:56 following ais523's example 00:56:58 recently 00:57:02 AnMaster: ais523 suggested something like that *dammit* 00:57:14 oerjan, :D 00:57:38 oerjan, you must not make me laugh out loud, people are sleeping in the next room. 00:57:52 oerjan, and learn to type faster ;P 00:57:55 dammit 00:58:01 * ais523 catches everyone relevant in a butterfly net -----\XXXXX/ 00:58:08 i seem to have fallen out of my touch typing 00:58:10 * ais523 puts them back down again out of sympathy 00:58:26 * oerjan bursts off his butterfly wings 00:58:26 about touch typing... 00:58:30 I notice I can touch type on irc 00:58:35 er wait 00:58:36 but if I play a game 00:58:38 *brushes 00:58:40 where I have to type random keys 00:58:44 like say, in nethack 00:58:50 I fail horribly at touch typing 00:58:54 I have to look to see where the key is 00:58:58 that is rather strange 00:59:15 or is it normal? 00:59:21 I don't know 00:59:24 i don't need to look at the keys but i no longer have optimal hand positions 00:59:33 AnMaster: pretty normal 00:59:57 nescience, it is irritating if it is dark and you need to reach up to turn on the lamp to see where you want to go 01:00:00 Pretty normal, but not for programmers. 01:00:23 one thing i learned about typing when i made the switch to dvorak is 01:00:23 pikhq, well I can touch type C too 01:00:23 or Erlang 01:00:23 or similiar 01:00:23 there seem to be a few different "stages" of typing 01:00:23 ... That's just weird. 01:00:26 the first was just having to look of course 01:00:31 but after that it was a letter at a time 01:00:36 i.e. i would think of the letter, recall where it was, and type it 01:00:47 nescience, I passed that ages ago 01:01:09 that would get me up to around 40wpm i think 01:01:15 I touch type English, Swedish, C, Erlang, Bash and possible a few other langs 01:01:15 but after that comes what i think of as "phrase at a time" typing 01:01:30 where you aren't thinking of the individual letters 01:01:46 and, especially if you know more than one keyboard layout, individual letter recall starts to get difficult 01:01:55 nescience, I haven't looked at the keyboard for about 5 minutes or so I think. When I last used the mouse. 01:01:58 i can type qwerty or dvorak at speeds up to 100wpm i guess 01:02:00 on any keyboard 01:02:07 but i can't stop and immediately recall individual keys 01:02:10 qwerty only though for me :/ 01:02:25 i probably could when i only knew qwerty 01:02:40 hm? 01:02:41 but my the letter recall is out of conscious thought now, i think 01:02:53 so i can be in "dvorak mode" or "qwerty mode" and my fingers pretty much go where they need to without me directing them 01:02:54 :P 01:03:06 I moved my hands off the keyboard. And did some other stuff, I didn't look on keyboard again when I started typing just now 01:03:11 even though I moved the chair too 01:03:35 but then I probably know this keyboard shape very well. Having used it so much that there isn't a lot of text left on the keys any more 01:03:49 hehe 01:03:52 Some of the less used ones still have faded letters on it 01:03:57 environmental association plays a big role too 01:04:04 i cannot for the life of me touch type qwerty on my home keyboard 01:04:12 but especially s and e seems worn out. 01:04:13 i can do it anywhere but home 01:04:35 if i rearranged the keys into qwerty i could probably keep myself in qwerty mode by glancing at the keyboard to refresh myself 01:04:38 nescience, I can't type at all on anything smaller than full size PC keyboard 01:04:42 but i don't want to, because of the very thing you are talking about: 01:04:44 I plan getting a split keyboard 01:04:48 individual key recall 01:04:53 since that would reduce the size issue 01:05:12 i'd probably use a split keyboard if i could get one that i could rearrange the keycaps on without them getting all lumpy 01:05:19 and if they made one with the model m keyswitches 01:05:19 :P 01:06:08 nescience, well I'm large. In all possible meanings of large. Large hands. Tall (189.6 cm). Wide shoulders. I find full sized PC keyboard small. 01:06:20 usable yes, but only just. 01:06:33 laptop keyboards are a pain 01:07:09 finding large enough mice is too. 01:19:09 -!- immibis has joined. 01:19:55 Does anyone know of an email service where you can make sufficiently complex email filters to program with them? 01:21:18 immibis, your own mail server? 01:21:37 since sendmail's config is in m4 iirc I guess it could be done for sendmail at least 01:22:00 but I guess you meant web mail or similiar 01:22:20 yes 01:26:13 kmix (KDE frontend for alsamixer) fails. It can't handle more than one sound card... 01:26:23 something I'm actually trying to use now 01:26:49 wait now it works... 01:27:28 maybe it doesn't work on minutes divisible by 13 01:27:43 * oerjan is just saying 01:27:57 oerjan, maybe it doesn't handle if you just modprobed the kernel module for the other sound card :P 01:28:03 it needs to be restarted then 01:28:27 how booooring 01:30:21 * AnMaster tries to figure out how to tell anything else which sound card to use... 01:30:23 immibis: is the name really Rub_y_ On Conveyor Belts? 01:30:24 this seems hard... 01:30:44 oerjan, context... 01:30:48 no... 01:31:01 its a really, really, really to the power of a googalplex, bad pun... 01:31:15 immibis, I know what Ruby on Rails i 01:31:17 is* 01:31:24 oooooh 01:31:27 just no clue why oerjan is making a joke about that right now 01:31:28 ... 01:31:52 AnMaster: the wiki page title says RubE but the text says RubY 01:32:06 oerjan, which wiki page 01:32:23 oerjan, Sure I know what RUBE is 01:32:29 but not why it was mentioned right now 01:32:33 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/RubE_On_Conveyor_Belts 01:32:48 oh so it does 01:32:49 because immibis just edited it 01:33:08 fixed 01:33:18 immibis, I would like a copy of the interpreter that runs on POSIX 01:33:19 and technically i edited it 5-10 minutes ago 01:33:24 i don't have one 01:33:29 because i made it for windows 01:33:38 immibis, why did you write it in unportable C then :P 01:33:52 it uses winapi to update the window with the current state of the program 01:33:58 that's the only unportable thing i think 01:33:59 mhm 01:34:13 immibis, is that split into a separate frontend module or such? 01:34:22 so it would be easy to replace with some other C code 01:36:00 oh and Sleep also from winapi 01:36:26 couldn't you just replace that with nanosleep() or usleep() or similiar? 01:36:34 yes i could 01:36:41 but then i wouldn't be able to compile it because i'm on windows :P 01:37:12 immibis, cygwin tends to be easier to get working than WINE IME. 01:37:57 immibis, plus of course you can. Windows *does* implement POSIX. Assuming you install the right stuff 01:38:49 http://filebin.ca/wfdjbs/myesolang.cpp 01:39:07 i made it ages ago so sorry if it isn't very good code 01:39:18 immibis, C++? Urgh 01:39:18 ok 01:39:35 immibis, anyway how does this program differ from normal RUBE? 01:39:52 I can't be arsed to compare instruction for instruction 01:41:15 idk, apart from the symbols used. It was based on an online game called Rubicon (http://kevan.org/rubicon/) 01:42:33 also it is turing complete because you can put any bf program in the "control program" (using o for output) and have the main program just copy its input (control program's output) to its output (final output) 01:42:39 Rubicon was based on RUBE 01:42:43 so I imagine they'd be similar 01:53:38 How is the score returned by Egobot's !bfjoust calculated? 01:54:19 nvm found it 01:54:29 * AnMaster sighs 01:54:50 it seems impossible to make ffplay use anything but the first sound card for output 02:03:54 -!- inurinternet has joined. 02:08:23 AnMaster: If it actually uses SDL for audio output (the man page just says "FFmpeg libraries and the SDL library") you should be able to use something like "SDL_AUDIODRIVER=alsa AUDIODEV=hw:1 ffplay ..." to make it use that alsa device. 02:11:08 At least here "AUDIODEF=iec958 ffplay ..." seems to make it use the digital output. And "AUDIODEV=blergh ffplay ..." => "ALSA lib pcm.c:2211:(snd_pcm_open_noupdate) Unknown PCM blergh". So something like that should work for card-select-o-trification. 02:11:31 s/DEF/DEV/ in there. 02:12:10 hm 02:12:52 interesting 02:12:57 setting those env vars 02:13:00 makes it segfault 02:13:43 hm AUDIODEV=default:CARD=V8237 works 02:14:05 (I'm trying to use the onboard one to be able to use the front panel audio connectors for some stuff 02:14:05 ) 02:14:11 s/s/ſ/g s/ſ /s /g s/ſſ/ſs/g s/ſf/sf/g 02:14:13 * pikhq runs 02:14:30 pikhq, good thing I still have that script loaded. 02:14:49 AnMaster: That seems like really dumb sed to you, doesn't it? 02:15:26 what language is that? 02:15:28 pikhq, I know what happened though due to having it mark the lines as "[GT]" (meaning GregorR Tainted). 02:15:29 :P 02:15:33 sed? 02:15:40 immibis, yes 02:15:41 LMAO 02:15:48 immibis: Yeþ. 02:16:29 !show gregor 02:16:29 sh sed 's/þ/th/g ; s/Þ/Th/g ; s/ſ/s/g ; s/æ/ae/g ; s/Æ/Ae/g ; s/œ/oe/g ; s/Œ/Oe/g' 02:17:54 this is very odd 02:18:11 why would one sound card give less low freq sounds 02:18:14 than another 02:18:24 same headphones 02:18:48 and these are high quality headphones. 02:21:27 so this is pointless I have to use the hard to reach one at the back of the computer 02:21:29 for best sound 02:26:04 One sound card, I assume, has a terrible DAC? 02:26:11 Or it has a bass/treble setting. 02:29:33 or its a crappy soundcard. 02:29:35 or its broken 02:29:36 or... 02:30:53 fizzie, where is that SDL_* thing documented 02:31:04 it worked. But I would like to know the source of that 02:31:15 I haven't been able to find it in SDL docs 02:38:29 night 02:42:27 -!- immibis has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 02:43:25 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 02:45:42 -!- immibis has joined. 02:52:23 has anyone devised a reliable speed test for brainfuck interpreters? 02:54:32 I don't know of one 03:14:43 so guys 03:14:47 i had an idea last night/this morning 03:15:24 which was? 03:15:35 mandelbrot, etc 03:15:51 well, the idea was for a esolang built to look vaguely like a genome. 03:16:08 i say vaguely because it doesnt look really all that much like a genome at all 03:16:09 but 03:16:09 :P 03:18:32 the simplest version has a collection of "genes", essentially triples (ON, OFF, SIGNAL) 03:19:01 each ON, OFF, and SIGNAL is a set of numbers 03:19:22 there is also a global signal environment which is a set of numbers 03:19:53 a gene turns "on" when its ON set is a subset of the signal environment, at which point the gene's SIGNAL set is added to the signal environment 03:20:20 a gene turns "off" when its OFF set is a subset of the signal environment, at which point its signals are removed from the signal environment. 03:20:47 a signal is in the signal environment if any gene with that signal is on, and is not in the environment if no gene with that signal is on 03:22:24 inb4 "We get signal" 03:22:39 D: 03:22:45 MAIN SCREEN TURN ON 03:23:04 the first program written should output "All your base are belong to us!" 03:23:35 well, we'll have to figure out how to do that :D 03:23:50 i also just realized what your username means. 03:24:14 oh really? 03:24:24 most people go their entire irc lives without thinking about it 03:24:31 they just assume i'm a girl with a weirdly spelled name 03:24:32 :P 03:24:35 yeah. i'd been saying it as if it were IPA 03:24:39 or roughly so 03:24:46 meen-dzee 03:24:50 but NO 03:24:51 its not! 03:24:55 its MINDS EYE 03:24:57 oh, i guess with all the language silliness in here, the statistical probability is higher 03:25:07 well, im also a linguist. :P 03:25:11 oho 03:25:19 i've only met one guy who got it "immediately" 03:25:21 mün sie 03:25:31 i was doing some business with him and had e-mailed him some file 03:25:42 first time i met him he was like hey, is your e-mail this? 03:25:50 * myndzi shrugs helplessly 03:26:06 yeah, he probably thinks that the way its spelled is phonetic, too! 03:26:28 a fun anecdote about people assuming my gender on irc: 03:26:39 dalnet had this lesbian channel that some people i knew were trying to troll 03:26:47 but failing because the ops were nazis 03:26:53 Funny, the only thing I assume on IRC is sentience. 03:27:01 Sometimes, that proves to be a bad assumption. 03:27:04 you'd get banned for having a nick that was too "girly" 03:27:07 too "masculine" 03:27:13 or if they just didn't like the looks of you 03:27:27 i suggested i could probably pass under the radar with no effort involved 03:27:31 turns out i was right :P 03:27:43 Hmm. Now that I think of it. I just realised myndzi's name. 03:27:46 i chatted with em for like an hour then was like welp, sorry girls but i actually have a penis! 03:27:50 And then I see psygnisfive realise it, too. 03:27:54 then i got akicked ;( 03:28:00 lol. 03:28:10 thats racist 03:28:17 their channel, their rules 03:28:19 * myndzi shrugs 03:28:28 myndzi: "Sorry, but I'm just a guy who sympathises with your desire for tits." 03:28:29 :p 03:28:36 it's irc, i'm sure they got plenty of trolling and guys looking for cybersex or whatever 03:28:56 oh i should mention i didn't have to lie, it just went assumed 03:28:58 hehe 03:29:08 i might consider changing my nick if i hadn't been living in it for so many years :) 03:37:32 auch, mein sei! 03:37:50 or zei 03:38:01 -!- psygnisfive has changed nick to mein_zei. 03:38:06 :o 03:39:23 ha. 03:39:26 ... 03:40:43 so 03:40:53 im going to try and make this thing do something 03:40:56 -!- mein_zei has changed nick to psygnisfive. 03:41:08 what should i make it do, ey? 03:42:03 i think this is a finite state machine, this language thingybob. 03:42:15 make it output "All your base are belong to us!" of course 03:42:21 dunno if thats possible! 03:42:31 maybe i need an output signal 03:42:31 find out! 03:42:40 probably do! 03:43:22 make it into a programming game! 03:43:22 :P 03:43:31 then you don't need i/o 03:43:41 :P 03:55:31 hrmph. 03:55:36 i need to develop this idea a bit. 04:00:04 or at least develop how to program with it :) 04:12:49 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 04:19:47 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:20:58 well no 04:21:00 i mean 04:21:10 as it is, its some sort of FSM 04:21:55 -!- Slereah has joined. 04:21:57 there are a finite number of genes in the genome, and thus a finite number of states the environment can be in 04:22:47 there would need to be some way of using the genome to affect the environment in some way other than just putting signals into it. 04:31:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:32:00 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 04:33:40 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Client Quit). 04:36:06 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 04:47:05 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:15:30 -!- immibis has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 05:22:41 -!- olsner has joined. 05:38:31 -!- immibis has joined. 05:48:21 -!- Patashu has joined. 06:41:45 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 07:33:06 -!- immibis has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 07:49:59 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:58:05 -!- M0ny has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:01 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:17:59 -!- immibis has joined. 09:15:16 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:17:51 -!- immibis has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 10:23:53 -!- Slereah has joined. 10:36:48 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:40:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:44:49 * Slereah beholds 10:52:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:12:16 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:13:22 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:20:52 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 11:25:47 -!- Slereah has joined. 11:36:06 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:41:58 -!- Judofyr has joined. 12:37:52 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 12:42:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:05:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:06:12 -!- Corun has joined. 13:06:16 hi oerjan 13:06:21 heh at iwc today! 13:08:45 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:09:03 * AnMaster prods oerjan 13:09:21 * oerjan realized what the punchline would be after the second panel 13:09:32 oerjan, I did that too very early on 13:10:06 about the second panel yes, though I had a pretty good idea already after the first panel what the topic would be! 13:12:12 heh the annotation implies dmm expected so 13:21:56 -!- SimonRC has joined. 13:22:10 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:28:00 oerjan, indeed 13:28:34 oerjan, this newton theme was introduced after the universe crashed right? 13:28:42 s/crashed/ended/ 13:29:31 yes 13:30:04 with some retroactive effect 13:30:35 (previous lewis carroll from the pirate theme was also included) 13:30:45 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 13:30:51 hm 13:30:52 ok 13:31:09 not sure how he and Newton are related 13:31:40 oerjan, or do you know? 13:32:16 hm 13:32:21 google holiday logo again 13:32:22 the theme name is "Scientific Revolution" 13:32:24 * AnMaster wonders why 13:32:44 it's a bit dubious connection 13:32:52 not on the main page 13:32:56 just on search results? 13:33:07 ? 13:33:21 * oerjan sees nothing 13:33:25 http://www.google.com/search?q=Lewis%20Carroll&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 <-- holiday logo... 13:33:32 Looks like Google gone Tetris 13:33:35 or maybe gone lego 13:33:37 not sure 13:34:01 Yeah, Tetris 13:34:11 but why not on main page 13:34:17 Apparently, Tetris was released today 25 years ago 13:34:24 AnMaster, I wonder that too 13:34:45 cache? 13:34:59 Swedish google has another one 13:35:03 http://www.google.se/ 13:35:14 but that seems logical 13:35:45 since it is the national day (or whatever the English term is) today 13:36:30 it's also D-day 13:37:10 there would need to be some way of using the genome to affect the environment in some way other than just putting signals into it. 13:37:25 oh i don't know - some kind of PROTEAN force, perhaps? 13:40:02 groan 13:42:30 [14:34:45] cache? <-- I tried clearing my cache 13:42:47 And I almost never visit the main page anyway 13:43:20 FireFly, no I meant, server side caches 13:43:31 Ah 13:43:36 it seems likely google use something like that 13:43:40 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 13:43:47 probably not squid, but something they developed themselves. 13:43:55 (wikipedia use squid) 13:45:48 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:48:47 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:58:59 -!- Corun has joined. 14:00:48 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 14:00:59 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 14:26:38 -!- Corun has joined. 14:32:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:36:14 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 ."). 14:56:03 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 15:10:34 -!- darthnuri has joined. 15:11:07 -!- asiekierk has joined. 15:11:07 Hi 15:12:36 ^style 15:12:37 Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* 15:12:43 fungot: Morning 15:12:44 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:12:44 asiekierk: this is gonna kick ass. man, you managed to take of hes shirt and jump up and sing skater boi, i could have been cancelled eventually anyway, i know 15:36:32 -!- darthnuri has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:53:21 -!- Spike_ has joined. 15:53:33 hello! 15:54:09 i have a question regarding some esoteric languajes 15:54:39 specifically those who are turing-complete 15:55:39 if an esoteric language is turing-complete, in theory, can it be used to write any program that a turing-equivalent language can do? 15:55:42 hm 15:55:59 Spike_, Um. Yes. 15:56:04 unless I misunderstood you 15:56:22 for example, again in theroy, can i write any program in brainfuck that could be written in c? 15:56:53 Spike_, not exactly. C has file IO and such. Which are not parts of turing-completeness 15:57:16 you don't need IO at all for Turing completeness in fact. But you could calculate anything you could do in C. 15:57:36 just might not be able to, say, output it, or write it to a file, or send it over a tcp connection or whatever. 15:57:50 thank you, that is a question i have allways had 15:58:11 consider underload for example 15:58:12 but maybe file io could be implemented in brainfuck... 15:58:31 it has no input (it does have standard output though), yet it is TC 15:59:26 however, I'm no expert at underload, you should ask either ais523 or oerjan if you want to know more about it. (Neither seems to be here atm). 15:59:38 I guess a few other know it too. 16:00:40 Spike_, as for file IO in bf, there are ways to add that. Basically they work by connecting the standard input/output from the BF program to some sort of daemon. Then the bf programs sends command to that daemon, which can then open file, output to the real console or whatever 16:00:53 http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/exe is one such 16:01:14 thank you very much 16:01:34 Spike_, befunge98 could probably do most stuff C could 16:01:36 ;P 16:01:41 (it is rather bloated) 16:02:04 (with lots of "fingerprints", which are somewhat like loadable extensions that interpreters can optionally implement) 16:02:17 the fact is that im writing a paper, and im studying turing tarpits 16:02:29 ah. Befunge is *far* from a turing tarpit 16:03:22 Spike_, oh and you might be interested in /// (http://esolangs.org/wiki/Slashes) 16:03:28 so i was thinking about asserting that with a turing-complete, turing-tarpit essoteric language you can virtually do whatever i could be done with a turing-equivalent language 16:03:38 recently proven to be TC by oerjan 16:03:40 sorry, "it could be done" 16:04:01 wow 16:04:20 Spike_, in a TC language you can implement any other TC language. It might not be easy though. 16:04:34 well, that is assuming you ignore IO 16:05:06 Spike_, there is a C -> BF compiler. ais523 is working on it as a gcc backend. Generates very very large output files. 16:06:57 Spike_, btw http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Turing-complete 16:09:18 very good link, thank you! 16:09:47 btw http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/ == http://esolangs.org/ 16:09:52 just in case of confusion 16:10:33 Spike_, of course you could implement a virtual filesystem inside a bf program. IIRC gcc-bf does that (or will do, it is work in progress...) 16:11:12 i find awesome how people can do so much with so few... :D 16:11:27 mmm 16:12:08 I tend to prefer to write interpreters/compilers for esolangs. In fact I'm currently working on one of my compilers. 16:12:21 really? 16:12:27 which language is it for? 16:12:32 yes, optimising bf to C compiler 16:12:41 nice! 16:13:11 if i find some spare time, i think it would be nice to write some more apache mods to esoteric languages 16:13:18 well, there are better ones. I think esotope-bfc is currently the bf->C compiler which produces the most optimised code... 16:13:24 Spike_, uh? 16:13:31 apache mods for esolangs? 16:13:36 yes 16:13:38 there are some: 16:13:39 oh my 16:13:53 http://modbf.sourceforge.net/ 16:13:53 though I think olsner (not here atm) proved mod_rewrite to be TC. 16:14:26 the future of web 2.0! XD 16:14:44 http://olsner.se/2008/01/27/bfthue-in-mod_rewrite/ 16:15:20 thats nice! 16:15:49 Spike_, I have also written one of the fastest befunge98 interpreters. (Fastest I guess, until fizzie finishes that jit-compiler for befunge he was working on...) 16:16:09 cfunge. 16:16:11 Heh, I notice the bfjoust scoreboard no longer breaks 60. 16:16:18 GregorR, oh? 16:16:36 Highest score is 58.02 16:16:44 jix_wiggle3 16:16:52 GregorR, that's strange 16:17:05 i find befunge mind bugling ... 16:17:14 bugling? 16:17:23 AnMaster: Not really, ever since I changed it to take percentages of wins over all possible runs, it took a long time for them to go over 60 again. 16:17:32 sorry boggling 16:17:33 GregorR, aha 16:17:36 AnMaster: Bugling is playing the bugle :P 16:17:51 im from Madrid, Spain... :D 16:17:54 * GregorR is going to use the expression "mind bugling" from now on. 16:17:56 GregorR, yeah I noticed aspell thought it existed, but even google define: couldn't find what it was. 16:18:29 Spike_, and yes befunge might come as a shock the first time you see it. 16:18:47 but it is actually quite a lot simpler to code in than for example brainf*ck 16:19:13 for example 16:19:13 (Which is why BF is bettar lawl) 16:19:17 ^help 16:19:18 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 16:19:32 Spike_, the bot fungot here is written in Befunge-98 16:19:32 AnMaster: i love avril. 16:19:54 My bot may not be written in Befunge, but it supports more languages :P 16:19:55 !help languages 16:19:55 oh and it has that chat thing based on Markov chains thing 16:19:55 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 16:21:59 GregorR, you could write an IRC bot in bf, but it would need to be hooked up to netcat or such. 16:22:11 while for befunge98 you can do it in pure befunge98 16:22:12 AnMaster: Define "you" ;) 16:22:30 assuming the fingerprint SOCK is implemented in the interpreter you use 16:22:38 !bfjoust pooper_scooper >(+>->)*5-[>[+]>[-].+] 16:22:46 Score for GregorR_pooper_scooper: 7.1 16:22:54 YAY I LOSERS 16:25:09 !bfjoust eggsplosion (++--)*10000 16:25:18 Score for GregorR_eggsplosion: 4.1 16:25:25 Yay, I did even worse :P 16:25:33 p[-34]=p[-8]; 16:25:33 p[-8]=p[-43]; 16:25:36 how useless 16:25:44 wait no 16:25:46 I misread that 16:26:21 How opaque ;) 16:26:39 GregorR, ? 16:26:50 I thought it said -43 in the first line too 16:26:55 not -34 16:28:48 -43? 16:28:52 SEGFAULT!!! 16:28:53 :D 16:28:59 pikhq, no. p is a pointer 16:29:02 not an array 16:29:17 ... You've been moving the pointer around, and then do [] on it. 16:29:22 pikhq, yes? 16:29:25 Heheheh. :D 16:29:37 pikhq, I do p[n] where n is the offset. 16:29:43 Yes. 16:29:51 Got that. It makes me smile. 16:29:55 pikhq, it is somewhere near the middle of lostking 16:30:07 so I have no idea about the absolute position at that point 16:30:29 I suspect GCC doesn't like it too much, but GCC can shut up. 16:30:44 pikhq, it didn't complain at -Wall -Wextra at least 16:30:51 and as far as I know that is valid C? 16:31:29 unsigned char a[3000],*p=a; 16:32:02 of course, program could move outside that, which would segfault 16:32:21 however, I plan to add an option to set another tape size. 16:32:46 (or you could just change the output file yourself) 16:40:11 No, I mean doesn't like optimising that much. 16:46:03 -!- tombom has joined. 16:49:27 wth: p[-4]=; 16:49:29 * AnMaster debugs 16:49:45 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:50:55 I do have a vague idea about the cause, but I can't seem to make a simple test case to reproduce it. Only shows up in the compiled output of that gcc-bf generated file... 16:51:24 which takes about 5 minutes to compile 16:53:06 as I suspected. Empty expression. 16:53:14 (but why?) 16:57:08 I want to make an esolang that can be made as a drawing 16:57:28 there are a few such already 16:58:00 well, as in 16:58:04 you can make it into a working drawing 16:58:05 on paper 16:58:07 not like Piet 16:58:08 no 16:58:17 more like real drawings 16:59:23 or an invented, pictogram-based language 17:01:19 BF could be translated to one well 17:01:24 > and < being arrows 17:01:34 [ and ] being sun-shaped halves, which are then combined to match 17:01:40 , and . being an up and a down arrow 17:01:50 + being a /\ triangle and - being a \/ triangle 17:02:40 um. So parsing it would just be a matter of doing OCR and then interpreting the text 17:02:42 right 17:02:53 well, interpreting the pictograms 17:02:53 :D 17:03:03 or the simple shapes 17:03:08 asiekierk, I'm pretty sure unicode has all of those symbols 17:03:10 ↓↑ 17:03:13 for example 17:03:18 well 17:03:21 can't see unicode herr 17:03:22 here* 17:03:31 asiekierk, fix your encoding then, Or font 17:03:40 , and . should be more like a mouth-like symbol and an eye 17:03:43 make sure encoding is UTF-8 17:03:47 Right 17:03:58 I agree 17:03:59 but I like the idea :) 17:03:59 ok 17:04:02 I think I set UTF-8 17:04:02 tetha, if unicode doesn't have them, then "Wingdings" probably does 17:04:13 ↓↑ (down-arrow, up-arrow) 17:04:31 still doesn't work 17:04:33 :P 17:04:38 and yeah, , will be an eye 17:04:41 asiekierk, does ö work? (o with two dots) 17:04:45 and . will be a mouth-resembling symbol 17:04:48 AnMaster: Yeah, that does 17:04:53 asiekierk, then your font fails 17:04:54 probably because I'm using Fixedsys 17:04:55 which I like 17:05:08 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:05:09 asiekierk, try Dejavu for example. 17:05:19 or Courier New 17:05:23 as i'm too lazy to download fonts 17:05:23 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 17:05:25 mhm 17:05:27 and still like fixed-point 17:05:28 no idea if it has it 17:05:37 asiekierk, Dejavu Sans Mono is fixed font 17:05:38 ok 17:05:41 i can see them 17:05:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:05:44 with Arial Unicode MS 17:05:50 now going back to Fixedsys 17:05:57 and is installed on all modern Linux systems by default as far as I know 17:05:59 Ah, Dejavu Sans. 17:06:04 pikhq, :) 17:06:15 Nice terminal font. 17:06:20 pikhq, and IRC font too 17:06:29 i'm using windows 17:06:31 lol 17:06:38 You mean there's IRC out-of-terminal? 17:06:41 asiekierk: BACK! BACK! 17:06:44 pikhq, yes sadly. 17:06:54 pikhq, I think ehird uses that. 17:07:00 with *shudder* variable width font 17:07:10 Well, lemme show you how would a typical CAT program look like 17:07:11 as in 17:07:13 ,[.,] 17:07:14 possibly Hellvetica or something. 17:07:17 let me just draw it in MS Paint 17:07:18 (spelling intentional) 17:07:37 asiekierk, as long as you don't want us to open *.bmp... 17:07:49 *shudder* 17:07:58 ... well 17:07:58 AnMaster: XP .bmp saves to GIF and JPG. 17:08:01 Erm. 17:08:02 modern MS paint's can even save pngs 17:08:02 Paint. 17:08:03 and PNG 17:08:07 tetha: Yeah 17:08:09 Right. 17:08:11 hm 17:08:11 and I can use PNGOptimizer 17:08:18 But I think I will just take photos of hand-drawn drawings 17:09:34 * AnMaster waits another 5 minutes after fixing the bug... 17:09:47 fuck gcc-bf :P 17:10:43 gcc-bf? 17:10:51 What is that 17:10:59 an optimizing BF compiler 17:11:19 Brainfuck backend for GCC. 17:11:45 backend? 17:11:50 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 17:12:06 what does it do 17:13:19 ... You seriously don't know what a backend is? 17:13:45 well, I probably would 17:13:49 if I checked my dictionary 17:13:51 ...I'm Polsih 17:13:51 no, I am just wondering about the backend part, because from my knowledge about backends, that would mean that gcc-bf generates brainfuck 17:13:55 Polish* 17:14:18 A compiler can be said to have two basic parts: a frontend and a backend. The frontend takes in code, transforms it to an intermediate form. The backend converts that to the final output code. 17:14:20 tetha: Yes. 17:14:32 ...wut 17:14:37 ok, so people are more crazy than I expected :) 17:14:41 ...so now I can compile C to BF? 17:14:50 asiekierk: It's a work in progress. 17:14:53 yay 17:15:04 What does work currently? 17:15:06 And you've been able to do that for a few years. Gregor wrote C2BF a while back. :p 17:15:14 Not much. 17:15:16 :p 17:15:23 Did you ever get anything to compile 17:15:23 sofar 17:15:25 Pester ais523 for more details. 17:15:41 IIRC, he just about had Hello, World! working. 17:18:37 uploading the CATs in BF-Gram in just a moment 17:19:58 http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8763/bfgramcat.jpg 17:24:02 and? 17:24:27 hahaha, awesome 17:24:44 who'd think BF can be so creative 17:25:14 asiekierk, a simple "hello world" program from gcc-bf is over 430K when RLL encoded 17:25:21 ... 17:25:23 OMG 17:25:29 err 17:25:30 RLE* 17:25:32 not RLL 17:25:32 pbrain's commands in BF-Gram 17:25:38 anyway 17:25:42 : will be a spiral 17:25:44 I'm not going to try to expand it 17:26:13 there are things like <*12842 17:26:15 and such 17:26:16 in it 17:26:25 where that * means "times" yes. 17:26:49 AnMaster: Now try to expand it. 17:26:56 I'm not going to try to expand it 17:26:57 as I said 17:27:06 doit ! 17:27:07 I process the file directly as the RLE encoding 17:27:17 just look for "*" 17:27:22 then convert the number after it 17:27:26 yes. There are quite a few of them 17:27:31 asiekierk, there isn't one after every one 17:27:33 and repeat the char before "<" that many times 17:27:39 AnMaster: I know 17:27:41 asiekierk, I know. But the output would be huge 17:27:44 that is my point 17:27:50 AnMaster: But HOW huge? 17:28:05 asiekierk, you can figure it out yourself, I'll upload it somewhere 17:28:26 http://omploader.org/vMXNoNA 17:28:33 plain text file 17:28:53 OH MY GOD 17:28:59 asiekierk, tell me when you found out. 17:29:08 I DON'T WANT TO TOUCH THIS 17:29:25 asiekierk, You have to now. 17:30:13 no i don't 17:30:23 it says nowhere in the file "your soul belongs to me now" 17:30:24 yet you wanted me to do it 17:30:39 why did you loose interest when you had to do it yourself? 17:30:51 Cuz i'm a lazy soul, sir 17:30:58 and i don't live in a "Lazytown" 17:31:04 (pun intented) 17:31:08 or intended 17:31:33 i type at 100-110wpm 17:32:10 00:06 AnMaster: nescience, well I'm large. In all possible meanings of large. Large hands. Tall (189.6 cm). Wide shoulders. I find full sized PC keyboard small. 17:32:14 you missed one meaning 17:32:20 ehird, no I'm not fat. 17:32:34 * pikhq types at a mere 70wpm. 17:32:41 AnMaster: LOLFAIL 17:32:43 Mostly for lack of bothering to get faster. 17:33:04 ehird: No, you fail. There's more than one he missed. 17:33:25 ("Fat" is equally valid as what you probably had in mind.) 17:33:27 then I guess it wasn't all possible meanings 17:33:57 Deewiant: True. 17:33:59 He missed two. 17:34:13 I think we could quite easily come up with more. 17:34:21 Oh, shut up. 17:34:25 He missed at least one that he is still missing. 17:34:31 (And the rather obvious one.) 17:35:14 I didn't realize it until your LOLFAIL, which got me on the right thinking track. 17:35:28 Deewiant: Yes, but you're always contrarian about things. 17:35:39 I *do* have large foots. Size 46 iirc. 17:35:40 Yes, I try. 17:35:48 "No, that doesn't sound like 'cock taste good', it sounds like 'qack tek goot'." 17:35:56 http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5769/bfgramextra.jpg 17:35:57 "25dpi should be enough for everyone" 17:35:58 etc 17:36:07 BFGram - pbrain, Brainfork and Boolf**k extra commands 17:36:08 :-P 17:36:15 -_- 17:36:16 AnMaster: Foots. 17:36:21 Feet. 17:36:22 ehird, err 17:36:23 feet 17:36:23 D: 17:36:24 yeah 17:36:25 typo 17:36:42 AnMaster: You're still missing it. 17:36:43 You're a bit taller than me but my shoe size is typically 47+. 17:36:50 hm... "gb_sets" being more efficient than "sets" module. Not. 17:37:02 I duno how will a BF-Gram quine work 17:37:06 I dunno* 17:37:12 Well, it would need to output a BMP 17:37:20 containing the exact same data as the input BMP 17:37:22 :/ 17:37:42 !help 17:37:43 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 17:37:52 !bf_txtgen BF-Gram 17:37:57 97 +++++++++++[>++++++>++++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>.++++.>+.<+.>>++++.-----------------.++++++++++++.>-. [288] 17:37:58 AnMaster: It's thickness of hair I'm talking about. 17:38:31 ehird, oh. Ok. Hm I don't know. I do have quite a lot of hair. But each hair? No clue 17:38:40 ehird: :-D 17:38:50 Omg, is it just me or am I going to convert 97 BF code parts to BF-Gram 17:38:50 hm 17:39:02 "one hair"? Is that really right 17:39:08 AnMaster: I'm joking; I actually meant toe size. 17:39:25 isn't "hair" a mass noun? 17:39:43 or am I mixing this up with Swedish hår/hårstrå 17:40:09 (the latter being one hair, the former being in general, like the total hair on one head or whatever) 17:43:39 -!- comex has joined. 17:44:21 i'm done 17:44:24 ...comex? 17:44:25 hi 17:44:38 I just made a pictogram representation of BF 17:45:18 ? 17:45:39 as in 17:45:42 well 17:45:49 http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/8763/bfgramcat.jpg 17:47:35 and? 18:06:18 argh 18:06:21 I hate high-resolution monitors 18:06:32 they're so awesome, but, but, but everything would go so slow. 18:08:11 -!- coppro has joined. 18:16:55 Except if you have a good graphic card 18:17:05 or 4 graphic cards connected in one :D 18:17:11 each handles a quarter of the screen 18:17:34 asiekierk: multi graphics cards is commonplace 18:17:58 ehird, for high end systems yes 18:18:06 AnMaster: yes 18:18:11 AnMaster: for any system with >1 monitor, too 18:18:50 asiekierk: high-res is over 1920x1200 for me 18:18:50 ehird, anyway, get a CRT, then when you want to view text you don't need high FPS, run at max res. When you need to play 3D games, use a lower res. 18:18:53 so, super high res 18:18:56 on a CRT that works fine 18:19:05 ;P 18:19:18 AnMaster: great, now I can have blurriness, eye strain, flickering and the horrid, horrid WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINE all the time 18:19:20 *so lucky* 18:19:30 ehird, oh you hear the whine too? 18:19:32 yes 18:19:38 I know lots of people who claim they don't whine 18:19:47 AnMaster: as you get older you hear less high freq noises 18:19:58 also, some people just have less sensitive hearing 18:20:02 I can hear if the TV is on over from upstairs. Due to the whine 18:20:06 wow 18:20:07 i'm not that bad 18:20:12 I can hear it from in the room, though 18:20:39 I have too sensitive hearing machinma 18:20:40 ehird, well... I can hear it in the over other noise too, but then I need to be just one or two rooms away 18:20:45 I can't just make my speaker quiet 18:20:53 I need to literally flick the power switch on the back 18:20:56 to go to sleep 18:21:03 huh 18:21:05 As well as the TV being quiet as hell in another room 18:21:16 and i can't sleep when my DVD recorder's hard drive is doing noise 18:21:21 :( 18:21:27 asiekierk, you mean you would want to leave the loadspeaker's on? 18:21:37 "DVD recorder's hard drive" <-- *blink*? 18:21:37 not necessairly 18:21:40 asiekierk: wait, you're that sensitive and fan/harddrive noise doesn't bother you? 18:21:46 well 18:21:47 it does 18:21:48 i turn my PC off 18:21:55 well, yeah, that works 18:22:03 what if i want to record a show overnight 18:22:08 then the DVD recorder noise bothers me 18:22:10 and I can't 18:22:10 :( 18:22:15 asiekierk: put it in a wardrobe 18:22:19 lol 18:22:24 it's too big 18:22:31 and i don't have a real wardrobe that close 18:22:37 it's so far away the cables won't reach 18:22:40 and i will behave like a jerk 18:22:41 :P 18:23:00 asiekierk: stop using optical media? :P 18:23:06 well 18:23:08 it's the hard drive noise 18:23:11 not the DVD noise 18:23:18 my DVD recorder is a HDD/DVD recorder 18:23:21 can record on both 18:23:26 and copy from one to the other 18:23:27 both ways 18:23:34 asiekierk: replace the HD with a solid state drive 18:23:40 if it uses regular sata you just need to open it up 18:23:47 ...It's a 160GB drive, and it's under warranty 18:23:54 asiekierk: so? 18:24:03 How big a SSD can get to not be overpriced 18:24:07 32GB? 18:24:13 asiekierk: well, you don't need much speed, right? 18:24:19 since it's not an OS drive 18:24:20 so: 18:24:26 well, it records on the fly 18:24:43 and I need to remove the screws and all that to remove the HDD 18:24:44 asiekierk: any HD can do that 18:25:08 wouldn't the fan noise bother me then 18:25:16 of the DVD/HDD recorder 18:25:25 asiekierk: does it have a fan? 18:25:28 I wouldn't expect it to 18:25:36 I think it doesn't though 18:25:43 but it has a DVD and an HDD and is about the size of a C64 18:26:33 hmm the 128GB ssds seem to be ~$200 (= 650 zloty); but you can get 64GB for $138 (= 448 zloty) 18:26:43 pretty sure you can get cheaper SSDs elsewhere, but meh 18:26:54 prices should go down in a few months 18:28:00 well 18:28:05 i don't need to record stuff overnight 18:28:13 OR I can just move the DVD recorder to my parents' room 18:28:14 :D 18:28:24 that is probably the cheaper solution 18:28:37 if only doing that with computers was practical i'd be saving myself hundreds. 18:28:51 ehird: Get a bunch of laptops 18:28:57 in other topic, what about the abomination known as BF-Gram 18:29:00 asiekierk: Laptops have fan 18:29:01 s 18:29:02 which is basicaly a pictogram BF 18:29:13 You can get solid-state laptops, but a bunch won't match up to a good computer 18:29:15 And they'll overheat 18:29:19 ehird: open a laptop's case 18:29:24 and then remove the fans 18:29:31 asiekierk: Your laptop just burnt 18:29:35 They're in there for a reason 18:29:51 or put it outside with an opened case with fans on a cold day 18:29:57 :D 18:30:02 heh 18:30:03 ehird: Overclocking galore 18:30:06 it's summer :P 18:30:10 Well, yeah 18:30:14 you need to wait until winter 18:30:15 but still 18:30:17 asiekierk: just use phase-change cooling 18:30:20 basically 18:30:28 a huge tube connects to your cpu 18:30:33 and goes into a gigantic fridge 18:30:34 also, why won't you get a small netbook that has VLC 18:30:37 er 18:30:37 you get temps like -50C 18:30:37 i mean 18:30:38 ... 18:30:46 what was that app to connect between PCs? 18:30:49 like, the screen 18:30:50 VNC 18:30:53 oh, yes 18:30:53 but, er, slow. 18:31:01 anyway I like having a computer case next to me 18:31:10 ehird: Do a cardboard one! *smiles* 18:31:16 heh 18:31:26 asiekierk: anyway, this is all a lot less fun than watercooling it 18:31:35 with a gigantic radiator attached to the case, so you don't need fans 18:32:21 >:) 18:33:06 mwahaha 18:40:56 well 18:40:57 going off 18:41:01 THAW time 18:41:03 -!- asiekierk has quit. 18:48:13 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 18:54:45 ehird, even better is putting the actual computer in another room. Then have keyboard, mouse, monitor and CD drive in the room you are in. With some sort of extension thingy 18:54:57 Dude. Read. 18:55:11 less fun yeah 18:55:14 I'm tired of you complaining that I don't read the rest of the text before replying and still do it yourself. 18:55:14 you said that 18:55:22 but I was not suggesting VNC 18:55:26 AnMaster: No, before that I said: because I like having my case next to me. 18:55:31 What's that? You didn't read it? Gee, I knew that. 18:55:39 ehird, so go for the cardboard case with a cd in it 18:55:41 I read it 18:55:44 ... 18:56:05 AnMaster: That is not having my case next to me. 18:56:06 ehird, but I assume you want the case close to be able to, you know, push the power button, use the cd and such? 18:56:12 or why do you want the case next to you 18:56:19 No, I just like my hardware to be easily-available. 18:56:29 Besides, there's nowhere I could put it. 18:56:36 ehird, walking a few steps is hard? 18:56:45 ehird, ok that is a good reason 18:56:47 AnMaster: That is not next to me 18:57:50 ehird, yes, but I still don't see a good reason for it. You probably need to get a screwdriver to open the case. Sure there are cases you can open without screwdriver. Did you decide on such a case? 18:58:06 -!- coppro has changed nick to NotEelis. 18:58:14 AnMaster: I don't want access to my hardware necessarily, I just like it being there :P 18:58:17 “By 2029 no computer - or "machine intelligence" - will have passed the Turing Test.” DETAILED TERMS » 18:58:18 PREDICTOR 18:58:20 Mitchell Kapor 18:58:22 CHALLENGER 18:58:24 Ray Kurzweil 18:58:26 STAKES $20,000 18:58:28 will go to The Electronic Frontier Foundation if Kapor wins, 18:58:30 or The Kurzweil Foundation if Kurzweil wins. 18:58:32 -!- NotEelis has changed nick to coppro. 18:58:32 http://www.longbets.org/1 18:58:40 Kurzweil Foundation? 18:58:50 Yes. 18:59:10 what does it do 18:59:38 AnMaster: Whatever Kurzweil wants, I guess. 18:59:39 [[The Kurzweil Foundation, which is Ray's private foundation, used these funds for the Kurzweil Foundation's scholarship program, providing scholarships to worthy blind students. ]] 18:59:43 Probably Singularity-related stuff as well. 18:59:49 (And by implication AI) 18:59:57 heh 19:00:14 I'd bet on Kurzweil's side, but 2029 is so close. 19:00:31 ehird, you noticed that google fails at holiday logo? 19:00:38 no holiday logo on the main page 19:00:42 Yes, there is. 19:00:43 only on search results 19:00:49 AnMaster: ISP-level cache fail. 19:00:56 Oh, hm. 19:00:58 It disappeared. 19:01:04 ehird, Hm. I'm pretty sure my ISP doesn't do that 19:01:05 AnMaster: it was there earlier today. 19:01:08 also, all ISPs cache 19:01:32 ehird, let me check from somewhere that definitely doesn't do it (data center) 19:01:44 AnMaster: I just said: 19:01:46 It's gone now. 19:01:49 but earlier today it was there. 19:01:54 AnMaster: also, your data center does cache 19:02:08 any ISP that doesn't will be going out of business due to bandwidth charges in 3,2,1 19:03:09 ehird, they are hooked up to level3 directly. So if level3 caches.. maybe. 19:03:24 Everything caches. Except maybe Tier1; I have no idea about tier 1 ISPs 19:03:36 isn't level3 a tire1 ISP? 19:03:52 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_network#Telecom_Providers_Tier_1_.26_2 19:03:53 No. 19:03:58 Oh, wait. 19:04:00 L3 is in that list. 19:04:04 OK, then; they might not cache. 19:04:06 as I said 19:04:42 [[Ms. Cynthia Clay, the Shakespeare aficionado, was thrice misclassified as a computer. At least one of the judges made her classification on the premise that ``[no] human would have that amount of knowledge about Shakespeare.'']] 19:04:54 ehird, I see tetris there 19:05:04 curl and grep 19:05:13 Hrm. 19:05:31 [...]


[...] 19:05:33 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:05:44 AnMaster: window.lol&&lol() 19:06:01 ehird, no clue 19:06:05 llol 19:06:07 I was wondering about that too 19:07:01 ehird, it is there on normal google too 19:07:08 as in "normal without the holiday logo" 19:07:32 http://www.google.com/logos/tetris09.gif 19:07:39 probably a workaround bug 19:07:41 they fail. They use gif. YET IT ISN'T ANIMATED 19:07:43 er 19:07:44 swap tht 19:07:45 *that 19:07:51 AnMaster: You fail. 19:07:52 it should show a game of tetris 19:07:53 ;P 19:07:57 it would be much better 19:07:58 GIFs are usually smaller for such images. 19:08:00 that was my point 19:08:07 ehird, it is smaller as png though 19:08:22 Less browser support; and are you sure? 19:08:22 * myndzi stabs "Tetris Holding, LLC" 19:08:31 fuck you and your copyright or patents or whatever the fuck it is :P 19:08:40 25 years indeed, isn't that enough? :\ 19:08:41 ehird, I'm sure if you use something like advpng/optipng or similiar. 19:08:51 ehird, because sure, there are bad implementations of deflate. 19:08:53 AnMaster: Go test it; Google aren't stupid. 19:08:57 * AnMaster does 19:09:59 $ du -b tetris09.png tetris09.gif 19:09:59 1798 tetris09.png 19:09:59 4193 tetris09.gif 19:10:03 that is after a plain convert 19:10:12 AnMaster: Now, gzip them. 19:10:13 checked that images are equivalent 19:10:35 did gzip --best 19:10:41 $ du -b tetris09.* 19:10:41 4229 tetris09.gif.gz 19:10:41 1639 tetris09.png.gz 19:10:46 the gif one grew 19:10:48 still 19:11:01 *shrug* There's probably a server-side related effect. 19:11:02 gzip for png is pointless. Since gzip uses the same compression as png 19:12:32 ehird, after using advpng, optipng and pngout: 19:12:33 1410 tetris09.png 19:12:39 AnMaster: Go ask google. 19:12:47 then after gzip 19:12:48 1416 tetris09.png.gz 19:12:54 it grew. Due to same encoding 19:13:00 imagemagick doesn't compress well 19:13:54 ehird, anyway it would be perfect for a gif-animation. 19:14:09 Yes, but also annoying. 19:14:58 ehird, also well compressed png are in general smaller than the same as gif. The exception is when the image is so small that the larger file header overhead of png makes the image larger. 19:15:04 such as 1x1 white pixel 19:15:07 or similar 19:15:08 There is almost certainly a reason 19:15:29 ehird, well, since there is no transparency in that gif (background is actually white), I don't know 19:15:48 IE 6 did have problems with transparent pngs in some cases. But that wouldn't apply here. 19:16:14 Ask Google. :) 19:16:26 ehird, so this is annoying? http://ipv6.google.com/ 19:16:32 yes 19:16:44 ehird, I disagree. The animation doesn't repeat after all 19:16:55 more annoying than no animation 19:17:11 sure 19:24:32 wow 19:24:50 apparently kurzweil invented the first any-font OCR, CCD flat-bed scanner AND complete TTS synthesizer 19:25:12 ehird, btw that link... Interesting TeliaSonera is a tire1... 19:25:29 is that like the sweden/finland BT? 19:25:32 looks like it from wp 19:25:34 ehird, BT? 19:25:39 AnMaster: british telecom 19:25:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BT_Group 19:25:59 It is one of the largest such companies here 19:26:28 bt basically control the telephone lines here. 19:29:10 ehird, I'm not sure if they own the actual cabels though 19:32:30 ehird, anyway... Is any UK company a tire1 carrier? 19:32:39 Tier. 19:32:41 Not tire. 19:32:44 oops 19:32:44 Tire is what you put on cars. 19:32:48 (' wheels) 19:32:51 ehird, easy to typo 19:32:59 AnMaster: Anyway, no. 19:33:18 (' wheels) <-- ((quot wheels)) ? 19:33:31 err 19:33:33 quote* 19:33:37 No. 19:33:41 cars' wheels 19:34:12 AnMaster: Anyway, no. <-- This is supposed to show Sweden > UK ;P 19:34:40 AnMaster: Tier-1 ISPs suck to actually be connected to. 19:35:14 ehird, cheaper though. Much cheaper. 19:35:21 AnMaster: WUT? 19:35:21 and usually it works well. 19:35:29 You're on crack 19:35:36 ehird, I mean, cheaper to _be_ a Tire1 than a tire2 19:35:42 TIER. Not tire. 19:35:43 And no way. 19:35:50 Tier-1 is all the big boys. 19:36:08 ehird, then I misunderstood the text saying "A network that can reach every other network on the Internet without purchasing IP transit or paying settlements." 19:36:13 source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_network 19:36:21 Yeah, uh, you're being stupid. 19:36:27 Being a Tier-1 is not easy/cheap in any way. 19:36:45 (Especially the amount of cash you'd need to bribe all the other Tier-1s to accept you) 19:36:52 ehird, logically, not having to pay such transit would be cheaper... 19:36:55 ehird, ah! ;P 19:37:05 AnMaster: But they have to handle a lot more traffic themselves 19:37:09 As opposed to delegating it 19:37:12 hm true 19:37:14 [[Tier 1 networks are closer to the "center" of the Internet. 19:37:14 In reality, Tier 1 networks usually have only a small number of peers (typically only other Tier 1s and very large Tier 2s), while Tier 2 networks are motivated to peer with many other Tier 2 and end-user networks. Thus a Tier 2 network with good peering is frequently much "closer" to most end users or content than a Tier 1. 19:37:17 Tier 1 networks by definition offer "better" quality Internet connectivity. 19:37:19 By definition, there are networks which Tier 1 networks have only one path to, and if they lose that path, they have no "backup transit" which would preserve their full connectivity. 19:37:22 Some Tier 2 networks are significantly larger than some Tier 1 networks, and are often able to provide more or better connectivity.]] 19:38:23 ehird, if so, what is the deal with being tire1 19:38:30 TIER GOD DAMMIT 19:38:33 T I E R 19:38:36 >_<<<<<<<<<< 19:38:48 AnMaster: The deal is that they're basically the interweb's backbone. 19:38:56 Everything eventually comes down to them. 19:39:08 ehird, also I always mixed up tier and tier 19:39:09 err 19:39:10 AnMaster: Also, they have immense power and control. 19:39:14 s/tier/tire/ 19:39:37 Tee-er, tie-er. 19:39:50 Tier is former, tire is latter. 19:40:56 ehird, yes, when you pronounce them the issue isn't. (Intentionally messed up grammar, but I *think* it is still valid?) 19:41:09 "When you pronounce them the issue is not." 19:41:11 is incorrect 19:41:12 the issue is seeing the difference/spelling it 19:41:14 you said "the issue" 19:41:19 and gave it a property 19:41:22 hm 19:41:24 (notness) 19:41:30 which is nonsensical if it's not, it isn't existing 19:41:31 ehird, ok.. 19:41:38 err 19:41:55 ehird, " which is nonsensical if it's not, it isn't existing" <-- what 19:41:59 I fail to parse that 19:42:03 AnMaster: so do I :) 19:42:25 ehird, were you trying to do the same thing as I did? 19:42:36 nope 19:42:53 but explaining metalogical syntactic/morphic distinctions difficults the mind! 19:43:00 ehird, tell me what you meant then 19:43:06 because I have no clue 19:43:06 i don't really know 19:43:08 ah 19:45:32 ehird, that long bet thing, who is behind it 19:45:52 AnMaster: Well, that's just one of them. They use dates starting with an 0, then the 4-digit year, so the Long Now foundation or an affiliate 19:45:58 ah... 19:45:58 (since they're the only ones planning for user 10000) 19:45:59 *year 19:46:01 you are right 19:46:22 "STAKES $1,000,000" 19:46:23 year -> user <-- how did you manage that... 19:46:24 Phew. 19:46:41 AnMaster: y is next to u, s is below-and-next of e 19:46:44 ehird: bought your computer yet? 19:46:55 ehird, still, "cool" typo 19:46:55 bsmntbombdood: no, I'm working out the intricacies of the watercooling set up 19:47:08 ehird: $4000 is too much to spend on a single box 19:47:14 bsmntbombdood: yeah, that's why I'm not spending that much 19:47:17 ehird, 75% of the letters were typoed! 19:47:18 ;P 19:47:20 that was just a maxed out prebuilt from endpcnoise 19:47:22 spend $2,500 on one, and $1,500 on another 19:47:25 of similar specs 19:47:28 ehird, I mean, a -> e too 19:47:28 bsmntbombdood: what's the point of that 19:47:30 I only use one box 19:47:40 i'd just end up doing a very slow analog of SLI 19:47:52 and you will get twice the performance of a single $4000 computer 19:48:07 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:48:11 bsmntbombdood: no i won't 19:48:16 -!- tetha has joined. 19:48:20 that's unfounded 19:48:34 AnMaster: "Long Bets was started in 02003 as a project of The Long Now Foundation" 19:48:40 since the kurzweil one was #1 it's been on since 2003 19:48:53 Benefactor 19:48:53 Jeff Bezos, founder and CEO of Amazon.com, provided the two grants with which the Long Bets website was built. 19:48:53 ehird: no 19:48:57 ehird, hehe 19:49:13 bsmntbombdood: i have no use for two disconnected machines, anyway 19:49:21 I only use one computer, for all purposes 19:49:26 and I hate context-switching 19:49:42 four i7 920s are faster than a single i7 965 19:49:59 bsmntbombdood: err, and? 19:50:01 that's 4 computers 19:50:17 anyway, the sum of computing power may be greater than one 19:50:21 but you can't utilize them as one unit 19:50:33 which defeats the point, for anything other than mass computation 19:50:38 no luck gaming, etc 19:50:49 what else do you get a $4000 computer for 19:51:00 bsmntbombdood: stop saying $4k 19:51:04 I'm not buying a 4k computer 19:51:28 that's what you said 19:51:40 that's 4 computers 19:51:42 no? 19:51:45 bsmntbombdood: nope 19:51:47 it is a 4 CPU mobo 19:51:53 AnMaster: not with i7s it isn' 19:51:53 t 19:51:53 which means a server 19:51:55 they only have one QPI 19:51:56 AnMaster: not with an i7 19:51:59 ehird, ah hm 19:52:14 so you can't use more than one i7 on a motherboard? 19:52:17 nope 19:52:17 how expenisve is the equivalent xeon? 19:52:23 bsmntbombdood: $500 more 19:52:30 I guess Intel want you to spend money on Xeon instead... 19:52:38 AnMaster: no 19:52:42 *shrug* 19:52:43 ehird, no? 19:52:47 go with lots of cheap opterons 19:52:52 bsmntbombdood, :) 19:52:53 AnMaster: they expect you not to go excessive w/ >8 threads. 19:53:03 ehird, a server very well might 19:53:04 bsmntbombdood: (he's smiling because you recommended AMD) 19:53:09 AnMaster: i7 is a consumer processor 19:53:22 bsmntbombdood: i said $4k was the cost of a system comparable in specs (apart from gfx card) to the system I'm going for; by a boutique system vendor; optimized for air-cooled silence 19:53:29 ehird, how many xeon's / mobo can you have 19:53:29 thus, not comparable to a DIY watercooled setup 19:53:34 assuming just CPU limits 19:53:39 and not physical dimensions of mobo 19:53:41 AnMaster: 2 = 8 cores, 16 threads. With the upcoming Nehalem-XE, 19:53:48 ehird, not more? 19:53:49 4 = 32 cores, 19:53:53 64 threads. 19:53:54 ah 19:54:01 (8 cores per die) 19:54:14 so can you have 32 Xeons on a single mobo for a total of 256 cores? 19:54:15 :D 19:54:19 AnMaster: after 2 CPUs you will do better with a cluster 19:54:25 also, no 19:54:27 ehird, true. But IN THEORY 19:54:29 one cpu = 8 cores 19:54:32 4 CPUs = 32 cores 19:54:34 64 threads 19:54:47 AnMaster: intel don't make >million dollar decisions based on theory 19:54:48 what's that software? 19:54:52 bsmntbombdood: what software 19:54:58 Nehalem-XE is a new chip thing 19:55:07 that lets you migrate processes between different nodes in a cluster 19:55:14 it may not be called nehalem-xe I forget 19:55:15 ehird, right. But you said you could have 4? On one mobo? Each with 8 cores? 19:55:20 AnMaster: Yes. Which is 32 cores. 19:55:28 Four times eight is thirty-two. 19:55:29 ehird, you can't have more on one mobo? :/ 19:55:30 oh well 19:55:36 AnMaster: dude 19:55:38 that was what I was asking about 19:55:41 even fucking opterons only go up to 4 cpus 19:55:47 4*4 = 16 cores 19:56:06 bsmntbombdood: anyway, I expect total cost of the actual computer + cooling system to be about ~$3000 19:56:10 ehird, Is this a hard limit in the CPU architecture? 19:56:17 w/ IO devices, ~$3700 19:56:19 or just because no one made such mobos 19:56:19 max 19:56:22 (absolute max) 19:56:26 AnMaster: it's because any more is fucking stupid 19:56:44 ehird: not with numa 19:56:52 bsmntbombdood: buy a cluster 19:56:53 smp, yeah 19:56:54 ehird, right. But you said i7 couldn't do dual cpu due to only one QPI. So Xeons have only 4 QPIs or something then? 19:57:01 i hear IBM are offering them at 50 billion a pop :p 19:57:05 "only" not being the right word 19:57:07 AnMaster: dunno 19:57:12 also, it'd be 3 19:57:15 hm 19:57:16 s/buy/build/ 19:57:18 AnMaster: also, not current things 19:57:27 bsmntbombdood: building a cluster? by your lonesome? 19:57:32 ehird, so what is the single "extra" QPI needed? 19:57:33 it'll be obsolete before you're 1/4 don 19:57:33 e 19:57:45 I mean, if it was just one to every other CPU it would be zero on i7 19:57:45 AnMaster: one of the QPIs is the connection to the memory 19:57:48 ehird: uhh, ok then 19:57:49 The front side bus has been replaced by the Intel QuickPath Interconnect interface. Motherboards must use a chipset that supports QuickPath. 19:57:49 ah 19:57:58 bsmntbombdood: i'm talking like a 100-machine cluster here 19:58:02 and over 19:58:06 cluster doesn't mean a million machines 19:58:18 ehird, thus in a 4 CPU Xeon system you need one QPI to each other CPU + one to memory for each? 19:58:28 or doesn't it work like that? 19:58:29 AnMaster: Dunno. 19:58:32 mhm 19:58:42 a four or eight node cluster is just as bonafide 19:59:33 bsmntbombdood, is it a cluster two just two machines? 19:59:53 I mean, it is really the same thing, just not a lot of computers 20:00:14 sure 20:02:35 bsmntbombdood: anyway, i probably won't go for the 965 since it's being phased out 20:02:43 975 XE or just overclock a 920 for me, most likely 20:02:58 or overclock 650 20:03:05 i haven't seen anything about the 975 20:03:09 bsmntbombdood: it's not out yet 20:03:16 except that it's supposed to exist 20:03:24 940 and 965 XE are being phased out, replaced by 950 (3.06ghz) and 975 XE (3.33ghz) 20:03:26 but it's not out yet 20:03:30 *they're not 20:03:52 bsmntbombdood: 975 is out 2009-06-03 apparently 20:03:54 so i guess it's out 20:03:56 same w/ 950 20:04:05 should trickle into stores soon! 20:04:12 bsmntbombdood: ooh 20:04:15 there are non-clock changes 20:04:18 D0 processor stepping 20:04:22 although I think some older i7s have that 20:04:23 wtf is that 20:04:27 (newer generations of them) 20:04:34 bsmntbombdood: no idea but apparently it makes things faster. 20:04:37 you may have it 20:04:38 check your box 20:04:41 the literal box that is 20:05:26 bsmntbombdood: [[The results of our memory subsystem test show clearly that we shouldn’t expect CPUs with new processor stepping to perform any different. The differences we see in obtained results are all within the measuring error. ]] 20:05:37 ok, apparently it's mostly better power consumption and overclocking potential 20:05:56 bsmntbombdood: 975 XE has been OCed to >5ghz on air 20:06:02 sweet 20:06:33 i don't understand why, if such large overclocks are possible, why not just increase the stock clock speed? 20:06:53 bsmntbombdood: a few reasons 20:07:07 (a) this way we can roll out more expensive pre-OCed models! $$$$$$$$$$$ 20:07:16 (b) ok, but, can we guarantee it won't fail? warranties, y'know. 20:07:37 bsmntbombdood: also, it varies from CPU to CPU 20:07:43 some high-clock CPUs don't work at the high-clock 20:07:52 so they just back off the clock and sell as the lower-clocked one 20:08:39 flaws in manufacturing? 20:08:54 no process is perfect 20:08:58 true 20:09:02 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 20:09:10 beats throwing them away 20:13:01 AnMaster: the qpi in an i7 connects it to the northbridge 20:13:04 bsmntbombdood: donate $10,000 to me and I'll build you a beowulf of Xeons 20:13:07 (x58) 20:13:13 ehird: no 20:13:18 bsmntbombdood: why not 20:13:27 i could not utilize it 20:13:34 bsmntbombdood: why not 20:13:43 ... 20:14:39 bsmntbombdood: you can't utilize your i7 machiaen to the fullest anyway :P 20:14:45 *machine 20:14:53 i mean, vs a core2quad 20:15:00 yeah i can 20:15:30 bsmntbombdood: you wanna bet that? i'll give you a similar-clocked core2quad with the same amount of DDR3 ram etc 20:15:52 ehird, so you are going for a core2 then? 20:15:53 right 20:15:55 no 20:15:58 ehird, why not? 20:15:59 AnMaster: i love excessiveness 20:16:20 ehird, you won't be able to utilize your planned i7 to the fullest anyway :P 20:16:27 AnMaster: did you read what I said? 20:16:30 i. love. excessiveness. 20:16:35 yes, I can't utilize all that power; so what? :) 20:16:44 ehird, Yes. I thought you meant having excessive money left on the bank afterwards. 20:16:49 which is also excessiveness 20:16:55 not... not really. 20:17:55 SF IS DOWN 20:17:57 OH THE HORROR> 20:20:01 Lolwut? 20:20:16 sourceforge 20:20:45 now where will I go for an example of an unusable website? 20:21:07 totally 20:21:22 Archive.org, pull up some older versions of the Microsoft website. 20:21:43 oh, MSDN, good point 20:21:48 oh god 20:21:50 MSDN is awful 20:22:18 Oh, right. It's *still awful*. 20:25:41 SF IS DOWN <-- temp or perm? 20:25:49 AnMaster: oh come on, take a guess 20:25:56 that's right 20:25:58 SF is down forever 20:26:03 all data has been permanently erased 20:26:05 including all the backups 20:26:17 which they stored in an underground bunker, on tapes 20:26:27 with 1,000 guards 24/7 20:26:34 100% bomb-proof 20:26:41 tragic 20:28:13 ehird, temp I guess.. 20:28:35 ! 20:28:48 ehird, but then what is the news 20:28:56 i wanted to dl something 20:28:58 I mean, it isn't uncommon 20:29:06 ehird, their mirrors tend to be up still 20:29:10 name one 20:29:14 heanet 20:29:27 link 20:29:35 http://ftp.heanet.ie/mirrors/download.sourceforge.net/ iirc 20:29:37 something like thjat 20:29:38 that* 20:29:43 http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/files/2009/06/areyoupennorteller.jpg 20:30:00 http://kent.dl.sourceforge.net/ 20:30:01 ehird, look at the google cache copy of the project download page 20:30:05 figure out the url 20:30:13 then use it but the mirror instead 20:30:17 v 20:30:18 http://ftp.heanet.ie/mirrors/download.sourceforge.net/pub/sourceforge/d/de/desmume/ 20:30:19 \o/ 20:30:43 ehird, lazy bastard :P 20:30:48 I had to link you 20:30:57 i did it all with clicks 20:31:00 well and Cmd-F 20:31:03 to find desmume 20:31:16 [[DeSmuME can boot homebrew and games, some of which are 20:31:16 playable.]] 20:31:20 optimistic README there 20:31:49 ehird, it isn't easy to emulated proprietary hardware. I'm not surprised. 20:31:55 yeah, it's just funny :) 20:32:40 ehird, you will find the same for all the other ones, like zsnes, mupen64plus, VBA, ... 20:32:48 similar phrases somewhere in the docs 20:32:54 AnMaster: they don't say that in such a deadpan manner. 20:33:00 ehird, that is true 20:33:27 ehird, not sure about VICE, but probably the same too 20:33:50 though emulating C64 isn't nearly as hard. And much have been found out. 20:34:02 *has 20:34:11 isn't "much" plural? 20:34:12 and stop starting sentences with... with whatever those are, I forget :P 20:34:35 ehird, I don't know what you mean. So 20:34:37 I guess I can't 20:34:51 AnMaster: "And" is invalid at the start of a sentence. 20:35:11 Citation needed. As far as I remember, it is just highly discouraged. 20:35:19 No. 20:35:21 It is invalid. 20:35:24 But I have seen it quite often in English. 20:35:29 books too 20:35:41 pretty sure I saw it in HHGTG for example. 20:35:49 for the artistic effect I guess. 20:35:55 It is valid in informal contexts. 20:35:57 ehird, [citation needed] 20:36:09 pikhq, as I thought then. Highly discouraged. 20:36:18 pikhq: no, not really 20:36:23 And yes, #esoteric is an informal context. 20:36:25 it's as "valid" as broken english is valid 20:36:35 i.e., it can be understood 20:36:37 but it is not valid english 20:36:57 And yet, we don't care if it's valid. 20:37:00 ehird, [citation needed] 20:37:05 you seem to avoid it 20:37:09 pikhq: It's incredibly awkward. 20:37:21 AnMaster: 2+2=4[citation needed HAHAHAHA I'M SO WITTY I CAN REFERENCE WIKIPEDIA] 20:37:24 In informal contexts, we don't give a flying fuck. 20:37:32 pikhq: ok den wuteva 20:37:36 lol how r u asl? 20:37:36 Also, it's not exceptionally awkward. ;) 20:37:41 ehird, You use it too. 20:37:43 hahahaha ur a nerd 20:37:47 AnMaster: No, I don't. 20:37:57 ehird, as do several other in here. 20:38:04 No 20:38:06 ehird: There's a difference between informal English and sounding stupid. 20:38:07 You're imagining things 20:39:32 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/and does say *some* consider it incorrect but also notes that "[...], but use of the word in this way is very common. The practice will be found in literature from Anglo-Saxon times onwards, especially as an aid to continuity in narrative and dialogue. The OED provides examples from the 9th century to the 19th century, including one from Shakespeare’s King John: [...]" 20:40:07 it's terribly annoying 20:40:23 ehird, what? That Shakespeare used it too? 20:40:32 yeah I guess you consider Shakespeare annoying 20:40:34 bbl 20:41:06 Shakespeare did a lot of things. ;) 20:41:28 AnMaster: Yes, because one instance of an annoying phrase by someone well-known for brutally raping the English language to pieces on a regular basis, means that I despise the man and all his works. 20:41:29 Celarly. 20:41:40 Clearly, too; but obviously celarly is *informally valid*. 20:41:59 * pikhq beats ehird for not knowing what informal English is. 20:42:23 yeh ok! pikhq,,,,, 20:42:27 wtf r u abut on 20:42:28 lol 20:43:06 Þou art like unto an AOLer. 20:44:53 :D 20:45:23 anyway, as far as I can tell from wp it seems it is valid in informal English. And for special effects. 20:45:26 I hope you're not one of the "don't end sentences with prepositions" people ;) 20:45:30 And no, I'm not likely to stop with it. 20:45:46 Asztal, example of such? I can't think of one. 20:46:51 AnMaster: This is the type of sentence about which I was speaking 20:47:04 Asztal, seems reasonable enough. 20:47:05 vs. "... which I was speaking about" 20:47:22 Asztal, the latter seems more natural enough. 20:47:39 but I'm not sure 20:51:10 bbl 21:02:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:09:09 -!- fernando has joined. 21:09:16 hi! 21:09:33 -!- fernando has changed nick to Guest68422. 21:09:35 hello 21:09:48 im logged as spike form another computer, just if anybody wonders... 21:10:05 ah the same one, i'm reading the logs 21:10:12 seems my nick was mentioned 21:10:40 yes, we were talking about Turing-completness of Brainfuck 21:11:03 i would like to know if anybody has ever tried whitespace language... 21:11:35 im trying to do a very simple thing, but i dont really understand some of the basics of the language 21:11:36 there was some discussion of "IO-completeness" on the wiki at some point, it's important for quines e.g. to be able to output in the same alphabet as the code is written in 21:12:05 yes, that was one of the points... 21:12:10 * oerjan hasn't looked very much at Whitespace 21:12:32 i think /// is output-complete, for example, although it has no input 21:12:57 i dont really know what /// is... 21:13:12 (see my quine at http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/quine.sss 21:13:23 !slashes http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/slashes/quine.sss 21:13:34 !help 21:13:34 /\/\/\/\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\/\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\//\/\/\/\\\/\/\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\\///\\////\\////\\\///\\////\\\// 21:13:39 oh just slow 21:13:57 that's just the beginning of the quine though, it's 1496 characters iirc 21:14:12 nice! 21:14:38 the /// can use other character than / and \ btw, i just found it interesting to show that those are enough for TC and quines 21:14:43 *those two 21:15:16 looks alien to me... :D 21:15:20 it's a very simple self-modifying substitution language 21:15:54 look at the beginning of the program. if it doesn't start with / or \, print the first character and continue with the rest 21:16:06 if it starts with \, print the character after that 21:16:42 if it starts with /, that is a substitution command 21:16:53 of the form /source/replacement/ 21:17:17 where source and replacement can contain anything but / and \, or anything _escaped_ with \ 21:17:27 crazy... 21:17:47 it's just the sed/vi/perl substitution command reduced to the bare minimum 21:18:09 i see 21:18:18 Haldo. 21:18:33 then, the first instance of source (escaping removed) in the rest is replaced by the replacement (also unescaped), repeat until source is nowhere to be seen 21:19:01 after that, continue interpreting whatever the rest has turned into 21:19:29 !slashes /test/Hello, /testworld! 21:19:30 Hello, world! 21:20:09 !slashes /test2/test//test2/Hello, /testworld! 21:20:09 Hello, world! 21:20:12 !slashes This is a much shorter quine (but could be even shorter). 21:20:13 This is a much shorter quine (but could be even shorter). 21:20:16 !slashes 21:20:19 hm 21:20:26 that *might* have been a quine 21:20:44 null quine 21:20:53 Guest68422: AnMaster keeps teasing me whenever i link to my quine, because in /// every program _not_ containing / or \ is _trivially_ a quine 21:21:03 oerjan, yeah :P 21:21:26 Just qualify. 21:21:31 You wrote a non-trivial quine. 21:21:42 Non-trivial quines are, of course, the more interesting ones. 21:21:44 pikhq, yes I'm impressed by that 21:21:58 but as soon as you have one of those characters, you need to use similar self-replication methods to in other languages 21:22:08 s/to/as/ 21:22:10 but I think it is important to mention that trivial quines also exist in /// 21:22:43 oerjan, is slashes output complete you said? 21:22:54 I think it is more interesting to note if there is no null-quine in a language 21:22:55 Guest68422: btw we use s/source/replacement/ in this channel for typo corrections, that is what made kerlo_ invent /// in the first place i think 21:23:02 tetha, oh? 21:23:13 tetha, an empty string -> no output 21:23:26 surely if you give it a file containing nothing it will produce the same 21:23:35 you could redirect the empty output to a file 21:23:41 then md5sum it with the original source 21:23:50 AnMaster: i _think_ it is output complete 21:23:52 if it is same, then it is either a collision or the same 21:24:01 oerjan, can it be proven at all? 21:24:13 well, I guess if someone implemented bf in it 21:24:16 I'm not going to 21:24:22 BCT doesn't have IO iirc? 21:24:27 AnMaster: I am not sure if that holds for each and every language possible, but for every language with a null-quine, trivial quines exist 21:24:28 bf without , 21:24:38 oerjan, yes of course 21:24:46 oerjan: I could've sworn that s/foo/bar/ was ridiculously common in IRC. 21:24:59 pikhq: perhaps, i'm not much in other channels 21:25:02 Like "even Windows users that don't even know sed understand it" common. 21:25:05 I think it is more interesting to note if there is no null-quine in a language <-- ah, it was cut off 21:25:22 I ended up interpreting it as "null quines doesn't exist" 21:25:31 !test 21:25:53 my !help command never responded... 21:25:55 !help 21:25:56 the easiest way to make that line make sense was to drop the "if" 21:25:56 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 21:26:17 What does "output complete" mean? 21:26:28 oerjan: I could've sworn that s/foo/bar/ was ridiculously common in IRC. <-- yes it is 21:26:35 any technical channels 21:26:47 like, say, #bash, but probably not #ubuntu 21:26:49 ;P 21:27:03 AnMaster: *Windows users* get it. 21:27:11 pikhq, that makes no sense 21:27:36 oerjan: isn't slashes isomorphic to thue 21:27:38 Just because it's used idiomatically on IRC, not because they use sed, Perl, awk, or anything else... 21:28:23 kerlo_, as in BF. You can output any string to stdout basically. 21:28:28 unless I misunderstood 21:28:45 hm 21:28:57 oerjan, slashes can only output chars found in it's input however. 21:29:02 errr 21:29:03 kerlo_: by that i mean that it can compute arbitrary output in its alphabet 21:29:06 s/input/program/ 21:29:12 hi AnMaster 21:29:25 /// can easily do that. 21:29:30 AnMaster: true, but it's not hard to include all of Latin1 21:29:41 oerjan, a bit more work for all of utf-8 21:29:46 on the other hand 21:29:48 kerlo_: where that is meant in a technical sense that is hard to understand 21:29:50 you just need one of every byte 21:29:51 right 21:29:57 so just 255 bytes 21:29:57 Oh. 21:30:04 for a "lookup" table of some mad sort 21:30:13 then work on it 21:30:21 kerlo_: basically it came out of the discussion we had about the socalled "quineless" language someone made 21:30:27 256* 21:30:29 AnMaster: thue does that too 21:30:41 ehird, ah, I don't know thue though 21:30:44 ehird: it'll be isomorphic to Thue once someone finds an isomorphism. 21:30:46 that language disallowed printing the first character of the source code before any other 21:30:47 oerjan: a true quineless, TC language: 21:30:48 so I wasn't aware of it 21:30:51 output is totally buffered 21:30:55 if output==program 21:30:59 "PINK UNICORN BUTTS~!~" 21:31:01 is outputted 21:31:04 otherwise output is outputted 21:31:11 ehird: and that violates my definition of output-completeness 21:31:16 yeah 21:31:16 : 21:31:17 :P 21:31:44 ::= "R" | "P" anything 21:31:54 isn't there some esolang that mandates the implementation to output "the empty program is not a quine" if given an empty input program 21:31:57 forgot which one 21:32:07 R runs the BF program, removing all instances of R from the output. P prints the string. 21:32:08 yes 21:32:18 ehird, who are you replying to 21:32:28 ehird: thue is not self-modifying btw 21:32:28 kerlo_: that's what the language was 21:32:29 pretty much 21:32:30 AnMaster: you 21:32:31 ah 21:32:33 oerjan: i know 21:32:35 but 21:32:38 The obvious quine is bottom. The other obvious quine is Ps repeated forever. 21:32:39 it only modifies the initial string, not its own program 21:32:40 ehird, wasn't clear if it was me or kerlo_ 21:32:40 oerjan: you could just do some escaping magic 21:32:54 ehird: sure, probably 21:32:55 oerjan: to emulate thue in /// 21:33:11 oh and hi Guest68422 21:33:25 whoever you are 21:33:31 ehird: most likely, by choosing slightly different encodings for the program and string part 21:33:57 im Spike 21:34:05 is thue OC? 21:34:07 AnMaster: Homespring has "the empty program is not a quine" iirc 21:34:11 AnMaster im on another computer... 21:34:18 oerjan, ah name sounds familiar 21:34:18 Guest68422 dies in the last episode 21:34:20 fyi. 21:34:25 * AnMaster checks what "homespring" is 21:34:38 Homespring is amazing. 21:34:51 im going to die, yes, but in this episode of "Whitespace Programming" 21:34:56 Guest68422 is wearing a red shirt. 21:35:03 pikhq, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Homespring ? 21:35:08 did nobody pick up on my reference? :( 21:35:10 AnMaster: Yes. 21:35:14 ehird, no 21:35:19 AnMaster: I don't expect you to 21:35:26 ehird: I don't watch TV. 21:35:31 "The name stands for Hatchery Oblivion through Marshy Energy from Snowmelt Powers Rapids Insulated but Not Great." 21:35:31 Well, not much. 21:35:32 bah :P 21:35:32 ehird: I know that people say that so-and-so dies in the last episode. 21:35:33 so.. 21:35:34 well 21:35:44 Most of what I watch is in ~/video/ 21:35:49 DVD rips FTW. 21:35:53 pikhq, hey, that is mine! ;P 21:35:57 AnMaster: That's a program, BTW. 21:36:04 pikhq, don't touch ~/video/airshows please :P 21:36:21 AnMaster: Oh, you've got ~/video/ *organised*? 21:36:22 pikhq, err yeah, the implementation of Homespring would be a program 21:36:24 that is true 21:36:59 AnMaster: No, I mean "Hatchery Oblivion through Marshy Energy from Snowmelt Powers Rapids Insulated but Not Great." (IIRC) 21:37:13 I don't recall what it does. 21:37:13 i had an awesome idea the other day 21:37:19 Guest68422: Whitespace is not really a turing tarpit though, it has too many commands 21:37:24 pikhq, certainly. It is actually ~/video/// 21:37:41 you use inotify to allow you to arbitrarily restructure your bittorrent downloads while still seedign 21:37:49 AnMaster: ~/video/series for me, with a few movies in ~/video/ straight. 21:37:57 bsmntbombdood: wut 21:38:00 AnMaster: No, I mean "Hatchery Oblivion through Marshy Energy from Snowmelt Powers Rapids Insulated but Not Great." (IIRC) <-- that seems horrible /usr/bin/Long\ Escaped\ String 21:38:02 any turing tarpit you recomend me? 21:38:10 Oh, ~/video/series/season. XD 21:38:12 beside Brainfuck and Ook? 21:38:20 i haven't tried it really, it belongs to the category of "esoteric languages that are a thin varnish over a vanilla imperative or assembly-like language" 21:38:21 pikhq, ah, I have ~/video/incomming, which contains three files atm 21:38:24 for new stuff 21:38:26 is for a paper im writing on esoteric languages 21:38:28 Guest68422: BCT. Lambda calculus. 21:38:37 The two eminently typical tarpits. 21:38:38 which are not particularly interesting for a mathematician... 21:38:38 when I don't have time to move it to the right place straight away 21:38:40 Guest68422: SKI. 21:38:43 Imperative, functional. 21:38:52 21:38 oerjan: i haven't tried it really, it belongs to the category of "esoteric languages that are a thin varnish over a vanilla imperative or assembly-like language" 21:38:53 tried what 21:38:55 oh 21:38:57 whitespace 21:39:03 im looking for some languages that resembles the Turing machine 21:39:10 Guest68422: a turing machine. 21:39:15 Also BCT, is quite turing machine-like. 21:39:17 you know, like in BF where you can imagine the array as a tape 21:39:24 Guest68422: Turing machine, P''. (AKA Brainfuck) 21:39:32 pikhq: yes, but BCT is more tarpitty 21:39:41 ehird: True. 21:39:44 SK combinator calculus 21:39:50 bsmntbombdood: that's not a turing machine 21:39:51 An, SKI. 21:39:55 s/An/Ah/ 21:40:01 ehird: but it's a turing tarpit 21:40:05 No, but it's stricly equivalent. 21:40:06 also, lambda calculus has less baggage than the traditional SKI description 21:40:08 :p 21:40:16 because SKI is usually described in terms of lambdas 21:40:19 in terms of term rewriting, 21:40:21 ehird, less baggage? 21:40:22 yes, SKI is a lot simpler 21:40:31 S := \xyz.xy(zy) 21:40:33 AnMaster: do you have a dictionary? use it 21:40:35 pikhq: Exactly. 21:40:38 K := \xy.x 21:40:43 I := SKK 21:40:43 That relies on the LC thus is strictly more bloated than it. 21:40:46 :) 21:40:49 no 21:40:49 ehird, I know what baggage is. It is stuff you take with you when you travel. 21:40:54 If you describe it in terms of tree rewriting, however... 21:40:56 ehird, but I fail to see how it applies here 21:41:04 AnMaster: USE A FUCKING DICTIONARY! 21:41:05 Gah. 21:41:22 AnMaster: BENKYOU! BENKYOU! 21:41:34 ehird, there: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=baggage 21:41:42 didn't know the second one 21:41:44 hm 21:42:01 AnMaster: I am not tailoring my english to your inability to comprehend everything but the most literal, verbose language. 21:42:05 ehird, I still fails to see how it apply. 21:42:14 ... 21:42:18 ehird, ah, so it has a non-literal meaning in English 21:42:22 what is that meaning. 21:42:35 AnMaster: Fuck off! You can look these things up for yourself. 21:42:37 I can't find any defintion of it 21:42:46 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh 21:42:48 tried google's define: too 21:43:00 Hmm. Somewhere out there, there's an idiom dictionary. 21:43:02 Guest68422: ehird and AnMaster are the local "always quarrel, but not really _that_ harshly" duet. don't mind them. :) 21:43:17 Need to ask my mom for the name of it for AnMaster. 21:43:24 ehird, and since I'm outside and ircing from a handheld. I don't have a dict handy atm 21:43:25 it's obviously my fault that AnMaster doesn't know english, indeed. 21:43:26 except the web 21:43:27 ... 21:43:31 sorry eihrd, what is BCT? 21:43:42 sorry ehird, what is BCT? 21:43:53 Guest68422, bitwise cyclic tags. 21:43:53 Guest68422: most things mentioned here have a link on the esolangs wiki 21:44:04 Guest68422: esolangs.org/wiki/BCT 21:44:06 AnMaster: No s. 21:44:13 ok 21:44:18 correction: 21:44:22 Guest68422: btw the way i proved /// TC was by implementing BCT in it. it is _extremely_ simple so useful for that 21:44:24 bitwie cyclic ta 21:44:25 err 21:44:27 bitwie cyclic tag 21:44:27 even 21:44:30 ehird, thanks 21:44:51 AnMaster: You might want to learn to type, too. 21:44:53 Bitwie. 21:44:56 ehird, ... 21:44:59 you said No s 21:44:59 :P 21:45:16 so I assumed you meant s/s//g 21:45:32 Guest68422: also try esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Turing_tarpits 21:45:37 ehird, it would be MUCH easier in lojban I bet :P 21:46:52 Guest68422: oh yeah, i was reminded of Fractran (which isn't it that list because it's not technically esoteric) 21:46:52 sigh 21:47:14 maybe it should still be in Category:Turing tarpits though 21:49:33 * oerjan adds it 21:49:33 thank you! 21:50:32 is there any compiler for Billiard ball machine? 21:50:39 thats weird.... 21:52:16 it seems that ihope (= kerlo) didn't find any when he made the article for it 21:52:59 "It then becomes Turing-complete if an infinite number of balls/obstacles is allowed." 21:53:01 expressable how 21:53:07 non-repeating? 21:53:33 -!- Guest68422 has quit ("Saliendo"). 21:53:41 i expect repeating is enough for such things 21:53:56 oerjan: so basically, just replicate the playing field and deal with the edges 21:54:47 http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Fractran_plus_plus <-- wth? 21:54:56 what do you mean wth 21:55:05 hm 21:55:11 crazy idea :) 21:55:14 Billiard ball machine seems like something that should be possible to implement in Alpaca.. 21:55:22 oerjan: that would be nice 21:55:39 with slightly different symbols 21:55:51 oerjan: oh, why? 21:56:35 you need a way to distinguish ball directions... 21:58:29 ah, right. 22:00:09 hm 22:00:09 turning it 45 degrees and using ><^v for example 22:00:36 how does the version documented there decide that direction issue you mention, in the input file 22:00:40 also 22:01:04 it doesn't 22:01:06 how can it be TC with infinite gird? Aren't you still limited to the same number of balls? 22:01:16 AnMaster: it's really just a sketch of a language 22:01:19 ah 22:01:22 that explains it 22:01:31 AnMaster: infinite number of balls too, i assume 22:01:34 how is it proven to be TC then 22:01:43 "Categories: Languages | Turing tarpits | No IO | Two-dimensional languages | Low-level | Reversible computing" 22:01:47 AnMaster: i would imagine you could make a turing tape 22:02:00 with some complicated gates and a long, broad strip 22:02:00 oerjan, sure, but someone put it in "turing tarpits" 22:02:17 which doesn't seem like correct if it isn't known to be TC 22:02:17 AnMaster: let's ask kerlo 22:02:24 * AnMaster pokes kerlo_ 22:02:30 kerlo_: where did you hear that Billiard Ball Machine is TC? 22:02:49 oerjan, it says ihope edited it? 22:02:53 or is kerlo == ihope? 22:02:58 duh 22:03:00 I don't remember. ihope changes nick so often 22:03:20 AnMaster: just whois him, it's still his account name 22:03:37 oerjan, I don't understand the context of: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Talk:Billiard_ball_machine 22:04:24 for that, i suggest asking MizardX :D 22:04:43 oerjan, um he isn't logged in. "* [oerjan] is signed on as account oerjan" <-- that is account name "* [kerlo_] (n=ihope@s1.normish.org): ihope" <-- the first is the ident, the second is the "real name" or "gecos", there are several names for it. But not account name. 22:04:49 MizardX, *prod* 22:05:29 "In bra-ket notation, these gates can be expressed as follows:" <-- is that typo of "bracket" intentional? 22:05:30 AnMaster: i recall it was last time i whois'ed him 22:05:33 or is it something else 22:05:38 * [kerlo_] (n=ihope@s1.normish.org): ihope 22:05:39 * [kerlo_] #math #esoteric 22:05:39 * [kerlo_] irc.freenode.net :http://freenode.net/ 22:05:39 * [kerlo_] End of WHOIS list. 22:05:50 AnMaster: yes, standard quantum mechanics terminology 22:06:06 oerjan, ok, Assume I know almost nothing about that 22:06:23 and how are billiard related to quantum mechanics? 22:06:25 is* 22:06:26 i really liked the idea of reMorse2 22:06:32 is there any compiler? 22:06:38 is the inner product of two state vectors in quantum mech. 22:06:50 the link form the documentation is broken... 22:07:11 physicists separate those into which are called bra and ket part respectively 22:07:20 oerjan, I did realise that since "Feynman gate" _was_ mentioned, quantum mechanics were involved somehow 22:07:29 An infinite BBM with an infinite number of balls would be TC. 22:07:35 then |y> is a vector and kerlo_, proof? 22:07:43 (linear functional) 22:07:59 oerjan, I just still have no clue why billiard balls have anything to do with quantum mechanics. 22:08:05 AnMaster: it's just a suggested extension, like most in that last section 22:08:11 iiuc 22:08:22 AnMaster: what would be much easier in Lojban, you bet? 22:08:24 iiuc <-- ? 22:08:31 if i understand correctly 22:08:37 AnMaster: logic + infinite memory = Turing-complete. 22:08:43 kerlo_, I forgot what it was about. 22:08:48 anyway 22:09:28 kerlo_, I'm not sure that statement would hold up as a formal proof. I could be wrong though. 22:09:49 kerlo_: it's plausible, but not a proof 22:12:02 Okay, then. Make a one-dimensional CA out of it. 22:12:27 hm since it's reversible tc would have to be done through a reversible turing machine 22:12:32 CA? Canada? 22:12:43 Oh, indeed. 22:12:43 AnMaster: ......... 22:13:06 ehird, I *did* check http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/CA first 22:13:29 ............. 22:13:34 ehird, and I *did* google 22:13:39 Not really. 22:13:57 Have an infinite field of balls coming in on side. Junk information can be thrown out the other side. 22:14:48 ah, you must mean cellular automaton 22:16:35 Yep. 22:16:44 Spike_: ouch, that geocities page isn't even on Wayback Machine 22:16:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:17:26 hm junk right... 22:17:48 kerlo_: i guess that's essentially how a reversible turing machine simulates an ordinary one anyhow :D 22:20:22 * oerjan makes a redirect for CA 22:22:30 kerlo_: more to the point, did you get the idea for Billiard Ball Machine from anywhere else in particular? 22:22:47 in case there are relevant links 22:24:15 oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billiard-ball_computer 22:27:34 Yes. 22:27:34 I don't know where. 22:27:44 * oerjan adds that link 22:28:59 * oerjan notes the link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconventional_computing 22:29:03 Something like that link. 22:29:10 ehird's, that is. 22:30:17 *Main> last (fractran [13/21,385/13,1/7,3/11,7/2,1/3] ((2^7)*(3^4))) == 5^(7*4) 22:30:18 True 22:30:19 \o/ 22:31:34 hm 22:31:43 about reversible TMs 22:31:58 yes? 22:32:03 how do you implement a non-reversible algorithm in them 22:32:07 say, RSA for example 22:32:11 as a well known example 22:32:25 oerjan, I have to assume it is possible, since otherwise they wouldn't be TC 22:33:16 you can compute y += f(x) or y ^= f(x), those are reversible operations even if f isn't 22:33:31 yeah 22:33:32 oerjan, hm... 22:33:35 ok 22:33:37 a reversible TM is just one that never throws away data 22:33:40 guess that makes sense 22:33:40 so you could encrypt S 22:33:44 but you'd have to keep 22:33:44 S 22:33:49 one trick i recall from reading about a reversible computer is: 22:34:01 ah 22:34:24 (1) calculate f(x) using whatever temporary space you need 22:34:28 ehird, so better not implement something that could be DDoSed in such a TM then :P 22:34:47 oerjan, mmm 22:34:55 (2) copy the answer to the desired storage place (with adding or xoring, say) 22:35:07 (3) _uncalculate_ f(x) to reclaim the temporary space 22:35:27 i.e. (3) is just (1) in reverse 22:35:53 oerjan, interesting 22:36:09 otoh reclaiming memory is probably not theoretically necessary, just ignore it 22:36:23 but it's important for a practical reversible computer 22:36:34 oerjan, and reversible TMs aren't practical I guess? 22:36:48 well TMs aren't really 22:37:06 they do have quadratic overhead compared to a pointer architecture... 22:37:15 true 22:37:23 but a reversible pointer architecture? 22:37:26 would it be possible 22:37:56 sure, the example was fairly ordinary machine code, except nearly every instruction was reversible 22:38:14 hm 22:38:17 oerjan: nearly? 22:38:20 there was also a "bit bucket" operation for really throwing away data, iirc 22:38:41 and it worked by physically throwing the data out from the reversible chip :D 22:39:15 oerjan, link? 22:39:22 hm 22:39:37 it was a couple years ago i read it 22:39:53 how did it "physically throw"? 22:40:05 as in, a mechanical arm throwing away the memory chip? 22:41:24 i mean as in it transferred the bit out of the reversible part of the chip into a special area, i think 22:41:38 i don't quite recall 22:41:48 ah 22:42:02 hey there's a revcomp wiki 22:42:12 ouch not loading 22:42:47 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing but that's not where i read those things) 22:45:34 ah there it was i think 22:48:15 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.34.6076 22:48:44 except the bit bucket ("bit erasure") part may have been just a theoretical discussion 22:49:41 oerjan, how does one read that 22:49:53 I can't find the link the the actual thing 22:50:05 there's a pdf cache link in the upper right 22:50:08 http://www.ai.mit.edu/~cvieri/thesis.ps is a 404 22:50:29 ah 22:50:31 so there is 22:50:48 i use that anyway since i don't have ps setup on this computer 22:51:06 (there's also ps cache for those who want it) 22:51:27 I would use it, except the pdf renders better 22:51:32 very nice of citeseer to do that 22:52:35 that article looks like it's scanned in, anyway 22:54:10 nah 22:54:16 just ps→pdf conversion 22:54:26 ok 22:54:53 oerjan: do you think that this is a good format for fractran programs: "p=324234; 31/21, 385/13, "1/7, 3/11, 7/2, 1/3" 22:55:00 or do you think p should be user-specifiable? 22:55:00 Both? 22:55:28 user-specifiable, that's the only input after all 22:55:31 ehird, I hink you got the quotes wrong 22:55:35 think* 22:55:42 AnMaster: no I didn't 22:55:47 oerjan: right, but some programs may only work with one value 22:55:51 "p=324234; 31/21, 385/13, "1/7, 3/11, 7/2, 1/3" <-- really? 22:55:53 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 22:55:56 so what does the middle one mean 22:55:58 AnMaster: Oh, fine. 22:56:02 Typo, geez. 22:56:17 ehird, then don't say you didn't without checking... 22:56:30 I glanced. 22:56:48 ehird: hm right, both then 22:57:18 afk food 22:59:46 oerjan, it mentions billiard ball model btw 22:59:51 that ps 23:01:24 "Brownian computer" :D 23:03:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:06:55 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 23:07:10 Somebody here will appreciate this (albeit unrelated to #esoteric ): http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/ 23:09:05 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:09:34 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: i'm grepping myself but slow | IT BUGLES MY MIND | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 23:14:46 This is obviously some strange usage of the word "masterpiece" that I hadn't previously been aware of. 23:14:51 :P 23:15:05 It's a usage that only Eric, Michael, Kevin, Kevin and I use. 23:15:13 (Where those names are friends of mine and their siblings) 23:16:03 Mind if we call you "Kevin" to keep it clear? 23:16:37 Luckily Kevin and Kevin are not siblings :P 23:17:12 good, good. 23:18:00 However, Kevin is his own grandpa. 23:18:14 oerjan/Eric, don't be daft. We should call him Eric. 23:18:39 * AnMaster is now known as Michael 23:19:15 as long as he's not idle 23:19:27 augh 23:21:25 GregorR, what is "Length of mandatory rest, in measures:" 23:21:55 does it say that there should be at least that many measures that are rests? 23:22:06 http://codu.org/masterpiecemachine/?mpid=Side-to-side+Prickly+Toccata this is good 23:22:08 AnMaster: It's more of a comment than anything else, but yeah. 23:22:18 AnMaster: It's not enforced. 23:22:24 GregorR, contiguous? 23:22:28 AnMaster: Yeah. 23:22:36 AnMaster: Good keyword, I'll add that :P 23:22:55 GregorR, "Name/ID (blank for random):" <-- what sort of stuff do you get for random 23:23:08 Names like Side-to-side Prickly Toccata 23:23:27 GregorR, Would be useful to be able to specify part of the name 23:23:27 -!- Corun has joined. 23:23:30 in No Time Flat 23:23:39 GregorR, such as saying it should be an "air" or whatever 23:23:49 GregorR, but getting random for the full name 23:24:05 AnMaster: It chooses the music part of the name based on the time signature, but yeah, I guess that'd be somethingish *shrugs* 23:24:12 GregorR, consider it a feature request 23:24:21 GregorR, is time signature enforced? 23:24:47 "Successfully created Masterpiece Now-and-then Political Dance" <-- interesting 23:24:58 also I think that failed 23:25:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 23:25:08 GregorR, 23:25:08 Style: Melody, harmony and flourish (3 tracks) 23:25:08 Number of tracks: 4 23:25:11 bug? 23:25:16 or is it supposed to allow that 23:25:24 The style is just another comment. 23:25:49 "style" and "measures rest" are just suggestions to the composer, so they don't affect anything else. 23:26:08 sadly I'm no good at composing. So I have to skip actually composing part of it 23:26:30 oerjan: let's build a DOMINO COMPUTER. 23:26:34 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:26:37 AnMaster: Leaving the "nothing" part :P 23:26:40 btw, I will be away and unreachable from the 8th to the 13th (partly inclusive) 23:26:46 AnMaster: YAY!!! 23:27:01 ehird, I will be sure to show you the photos :P 23:27:06 FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU 23:27:16 ehird, going to guided tour at Esrange (they launch rockets there) 23:27:21 amongst other things 23:27:26 hi again! 23:27:37 ehird, :) 23:27:44 Spike_: hi. 23:27:49 i wonder if anybody understands this list of operatos in ReMorese... : 23:27:55 The (circular) List of Operations and their Opposites 23:27:55 operations|opposites|comments 23:27:55 ----------+---------+-------- 23:27:55 push |pop |into/outof datum 23:27:55 output chr|input chr|always ASCII (use stack) 23:27:56 bit sort |tros tib |bit sort (stacktop) normal/reverse 23:27:58 select bit|filt bit |stacktop=stacktop AND YES/NOT funky 23:28:00 rot left |rot right|rotate funky (bitwise) 23:28:00 ehird, you might want to check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esrange 23:28:02 increase |decrease |(datum) by value in funky reg 23:28:04 ptr forth |ptr back |by value in funky reg 23:28:06 jmp forth |jmp back |by top value on stack 23:28:07 Spike_, pastebin.com 23:28:10 or pastebin.ca 23:28:12 or similiar 23:28:21 AnMaster: what does it matter when nobody is talking? 23:28:22 (for long pastes) 23:28:27 it's only annoying if the channel is activ 23:28:28 e 23:28:29 sorry ok 23:28:31 ehird, you consider me "nobody"= 23:28:35 gee. thanks 23:28:35 AnMaster: yes :) 23:28:47 Spike_: there's no ReMorese page on the wiki 23:28:50 what do you mean? 23:29:01 Spike_: oh, http://esolangs.org/wiki/ReMorse? 23:29:13 i understand what push, output and increase does 23:29:22 yes, i found it there 23:29:22 Spike_: look on the wiki page 23:29:25 it has longtext descriptions 23:29:49 oerjan: I'm now interested in reversible turing tarpits. 23:29:51 Guess I have to write one! 23:30:37 what im not really getting is why remorse2 uses "fake push" 23:31:16 no idea 23:31:26 Spike_: did you say you're writing a paper on esolangs? 23:31:52 GregorR, who wrote that first music piece 23:32:06 that is plural who 23:32:16 Michael, Eric and I. 23:32:27 (In that order, track-wise) 23:32:31 AnMaster: Plural who? 23:32:33 I'm not sure that works. 23:32:39 Who says it doesn't? 23:32:53 (And it'd better only be one person who says it doesn't! ;) ) 23:33:01 ehird, hm... so what do you say if you mean "who" -> group of people 23:33:04 rather than one person 23:33:07 AnMaster: i'm not sure 23:33:12 You say "who" :P 23:33:14 it is valid 23:33:17 your sentence is just odd :P 23:33:17 ehird, I thought it was just "who" 23:33:19 "If the average American watches TV for about 2 hours a day" 23:33:20 ↑ LOL 23:33:22 thus is it plural "who" 23:33:24 ehird: i feel that project is destined to fall 23:33:34 oerjan: har har har 23:33:55 ehird, I would have guessed a bit more 23:34:00 4 or 5 maybe? 23:34:13 AnMaster: 8. 23:34:16 5 days a week. 23:34:31 ehird, um. What about work 23:34:38 AnMaster: What about it? 23:34:43 ehird, and sleep 23:34:47 I can't get it to add up 23:34:53 (If we say 7 days a week instead of 5, it's 5) 23:35:00 lets say, 8 hours of sleep, minimum. 23:35:04 per night 23:35:04 ehird: check out Kayak 23:35:08 ehird yes, thats what im doing 23:35:11 on average 23:35:16 sometimes more sometimes less 23:35:22 AnMaster: Your issue is assuming any sort of sanity beyond mindless TV-watching in the average American mind. 23:35:24 but you really can't manage with less in the long run 23:35:28 Spike_: high school or university? 23:35:33 then work takes maybe 8 hours a day 23:35:36 maybe more 23:35:46 that is 8 + 8 = 16. 23:35:48 it is for a professor at my university 23:35:56 rite 23:36:01 that leaves 8 hours. 23:36:05 he teches algorythmic 23:36:09 for TV AND traveling to work AND eating 23:36:12 AnMaster: You do know that the average american is a part time schmuck, right? 23:36:13 and going to the toilet 23:36:24 * AnMaster googles "schmuck" 23:36:29 Spike_: algorhythmic is the study of algorithms for RHYTHM. 23:36:34 No but seriously, I think you mean algorithms :) 23:36:40 and i think this topic is great for comparing turing machines with really simple languages 23:36:40 Schmuck (pejorative), an insulting term for a stupid person or dimwitted fool or an unwanted guest 23:36:41 Schmuck (surname) 23:36:44 I guess the former 23:36:52 yes thats what i mean 23:36:54 Spike_: Yeah, it is 23:37:02 "Schmuck is a surname. Of German origin, it means jewel or jewelry." 23:37:15 no references though 23:37:22 Spike_: If you want a real TM, our resident ais523 proved this turing machine turing complete: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/ 23:37:27 so it's the smallest possible TC TM 23:37:35 but before writing, i need to understand myself how this things work... :D 23:37:36 ehird, anyway you can't manage 8 hours TV 23:37:42 at most slightly less 23:37:56 AnMaster: remember, this is for 5-days-a-week 23:38:00 spread over 7 days instead so you get 5 then it works 23:38:02 for 7 days a week it comes to 5 hours 23:38:06 AnMaster: do you know what part-time means? 23:38:10 it means that work=8hrs is incorrect. 23:38:14 ehird, ah 23:38:29 did he won the $25.000? 23:38:43 ehird, I thought you mean "part time schmuck" => "part time (an insulting term for a stupid person or dimwitted fool or an unwanted guest)" 23:38:44 Spike_: yes (although in the UK and US, you just said $25 :-P) 23:38:49 thus "not always an idiot" 23:38:52 AnMaster: haha 23:38:53 "but sometmes" 23:39:04 ehird, it was possible to interpret it that way 23:39:09 AnMaster: i'm not sure it's possible to change your schmuckiness :) 23:39:15 ok, 25,000 then 23:39:24 nice 23:39:26 ehird, It is due to language barrier. 23:39:32 more than anything else 23:39:48 Spike_: yeah, but he's a uni student; I think he's burned it off on mostly living expenses by now 23:39:58 There is a Swedish person sitting right next to me who I'm sure would have no problem understanding that. Language barrier shmanguage barrier :P 23:40:24 GregorR-L: AnMaster complained at me for defending someone who ran into a language barrier in here i while ago 23:40:25 :p 23:40:31 ehird, plus I have always been what we in Swedish call "en ensamvarg", an idiom meaning rougly someone who prefers to be alone. For example, rather reading a book alone at home, than going to a party 23:40:34 and so on 23:40:49 AnMaster: "Nerd". 23:40:50 :p 23:40:53 "Uggo" 23:40:53 one language barrier question: what does "Bit sort the stack byte in place" means? 23:41:04 ehird, not exactly, different connotations 23:41:08 (spelling?) 23:41:08 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:41:17 Spike_: I, as a native speaker of English, have not a fekking clue. 23:41:18 Spike_: a byte is made up of N bits - usually 32 or 64 23:41:27 Spike_: but let's say, oh, 10 for demonstration 23:41:30 ehird: er, what? 23:41:38 Spike_: well, 0101010101 -> 0000011111 would be that 23:41:40 "sorting the bits" 23:41:41 ehird, this concept doesn't imply nerdiness. It could imply shyness too. But it doesn't require that either 23:41:42 but I doubt it's that 23:41:46 so I have no clue :) 23:41:53 ehird: That was my first though, but that seems so stupid :P 23:42:04 Yes. 23:42:09 AnMaster: "Hermit" 23:42:13 GregorR-L: As a "random crazy operation", though, it could work. 23:42:24 GregorR-L: It... counts the number of 1s, I think. 23:42:26 :? 23:42:32 Spike_: a byte is made up of N bits - usually 32 or 64 <-- *blink* 23:42:41 AnMaster: er 23:42:43 usually 8 :P 23:42:50 GregorR-L: yep, it does 23:43:00 GregorR-L: it results in 2**count_of_ones - 1 23:43:24 8, 16, 32, whatever... why ReMorse language needs such operation for? 23:43:27 lolololol 23:43:31 Spike_: No idea. 23:43:33 GregorR, again not same. En "eremit" (The Swedish term), is someone living way out in the forest or such in a hut. While a "ensamvarg" may live in society, just not take active part of the social aspects. 23:43:57 AnMaster: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH 23:44:01 That was a gale-force wind. 23:44:04 Going over your head. 23:44:10 ehird, I'm looking for a good translation 23:44:12 not a joke 23:44:21 thus I choose to ignore the joke aspect of it 23:44:24 table[popcount(x)] 23:44:25 easy 23:44:32 literally it means "lonesome wolf" 23:44:41 AnMaster: I'm sure. 23:44:44 Nice try. 23:44:52 oerjan, yes indeed 23:45:03 oerjan, you have it in Norwegian btw? 23:45:25 ehird, I actually did, the joke part was irrelevant to this convo 23:45:25 not sure 23:45:29 thus I ignored it. 23:45:37 not in one word anyhow... 23:45:45 GregorR-L: stop being irrelevant, you uncouth person! 23:46:16 (by not sure, i mean the term "ensom ulv" is used, but i'm not sure it means exactly the same) 23:46:29 oh... 23:46:35 oerjan, so what does it mean then 23:46:43 the norwegian would be "enstøing" 23:46:58 wth is "Tagalog". Saw it in an interwiki link... 23:47:09 AnMaster: a language 23:47:15 oerjan, constructed one? 23:47:17 Tagalog can mean: 23:47:17 The Tagalog language, the most widely spoken of the Philippine languages. 23:47:19 The Tagalog people, the second-largest Filipino ethnic group. 23:47:20 The Tagalog script, the ancient writing system of the Tagalog people. 23:47:23 ah no 23:47:27 AnMaster: I wish you would buy a mouse so you can CLICK LINKS AND FIND OUT. 23:47:30 it sounds like a constructed one 23:47:46 ehird, interwiki link... as in interwiki language one 23:47:52 I can't read the page I got by clicking 23:47:57 AnMaster: Copy, paste, google. 23:48:01 AnMaster: languages around there sometimes do, it's a malayo-polynesian thing 23:48:06 ehird, sure. But that != clicking 23:48:13 which you claimed 23:48:18 AnMaster: Click, drag, release, middle click, click search. 23:48:19 O RLY 23:48:29 CV syllable structure. japanese too... 23:48:52 ehird, "click, drag" -> dragging link pastes the url of the link into the google search box 23:49:02 depends on browser of course 23:49:14 AnMaster: Click, drag to select. 23:49:17 X11 clipboard. 23:49:31 * AnMaster switches to using dvtm with emacs w3m-mode just to annoy ehird 23:49:35 here we are 23:50:01 ehird, remember that "Zaba" I mentioned? 23:50:07 Oh, god. 23:50:10 AnMaster: Don't tell me. 23:50:14 He switched to dvtm. 23:50:16 Fulltime. 23:50:18 When I told him about dvtm he said he would use it if he needed terminal multiplexing 23:50:24 ehird, he said he didn't though 23:50:31 that 6 vts were more than enough 23:50:35 *shrug* 23:50:37 Anyone want to go kill him? pikhq? 23:50:42 It's for justice, and humanity. 23:51:17 ehird, whatever you do, don't tell zzo about dvtm 23:51:19 imagine it 23:51:27 fully configurable dvtm 23:51:40 heh 23:51:52 ehird, hm "screen refresh on new output from program should be an option" 23:51:53 AnMaster: he'd write his own virtual terminal layer 23:51:57 :D 23:52:47 ehird, any idea for other options he would add? 23:52:57 program_source = 23:53:38 ehird, what would it do 23:53:52 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 23:54:01 AnMaster: change the source to zzodvtm. 23:54:04 AnMaster: sv:enstöring/ensamvarg links to en:loner (also there was a tagalog link, were you at the same page? :D) 23:54:35 ehird, hm 23:54:56 oerjan, yes. But notice what it says about the difference between those two Swedish words 23:55:37 right... 23:55:43 "The modern term "loner" is usually used with a negative connotation" <-- "ensamvarg" doesn't in Swedish. "enstöring" does however. 23:55:55 also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_wolf_(trait) 23:56:03 oh that is interesting 23:56:27 yes in Swedish it is used in a non-literal meaning 23:56:41 as is described further down there 23:59:27 Ditto in English. 23:59:59 !swedish Lone Wolf