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00:08:25 <ehird> Theory: If the computation doesn't follow from the data structure, the structure has a higher-level representation.
00:09:30 <ehird> (That's the sort of thing Aneu will challenge just to be contrary. :P)
00:11:19 <ehird> More controversial theory: The best data structure representation obsoletes code.
00:11:24 <ehird> (Aneu! Take the bait!)
00:30:00 <ehird> GregorR: kerlo/ihope/etc.
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00:47:05 <GregorR> Aneu: STICK TO A FUCKING NAME
00:48:09 <GregorR> I'm told it's good, and Pelham 123 was such a shitfest I need to watch a good movie.
00:48:53 <pikhq> GregorR: Might I suggest Plan 9 as an improvement?
00:50:17 <GregorR> At least that movie is /so/ bad it's good :P
00:51:09 <ehird> haven't watched it but :P
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02:52:03 <GregorR> OK, now that I've watched Memento, it's time to totally desecrate the entire interest of the film and watch it backwards!
03:07:28 * Aneu reads the paid.
03:07:48 * Aneu reads the bait.
03:08:12 <Aneu> Cool, my mind swapped the voicedness of those two consonants.
03:09:54 <Aneu> ehird: well, you have to calculate something in order to have any calculation.
03:10:10 <Aneu> If the data structure tells you what calculations to make, it is the code.
03:10:38 <Aneu> If the data structure merely indicates whether a given calculation is correct or not, it's a pretty cool data structure, but difficult to actually use.
03:11:13 <Aneu> If the data structure is subjective, woot, AI is required. Maybe not strong AI, but probably something stronger than Prolog.
03:11:32 <Aneu> And if the data structure doesn't tell you anything about calculations, either it just has all the data or it doesn't.
03:12:13 <Aneu> If it has all the data, the calculation must already be done; that's not really obsoleting code unless you've managed to perform so many calculations that you don't need to perform any more ever.
03:12:20 <Aneu> If it doesn't have all the data, that's hardly best.
03:12:45 <Aneu> And now to tell you what parts of that are actually relevant.
03:14:05 <Aneu> You mentioned "the computation follows from the data structure". I guess that could be multiple of those.
03:16:12 <Aneu> To summarize, I can't respond meaningfully because I don't know what you mean.
03:26:12 <Aneu> Anyway, there are few things I can change my nick to that I wouldn't change back to something else.
03:26:16 -!- Aneu has changed nick to Warrigal.
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04:31:02 <Warrigal> ehird: how stupid is the average person?
04:31:08 <oerjan> your nick has slipped _again_?
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05:01:53 <GregorR> Warrigal: Staaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
05:03:50 * GregorR is ripping Memento one track at a time so he can watch it backwards/in-order.
05:04:00 <Warrigal> This is probably the most stable nick I could possibly have.
05:04:32 <Warrigal> Runners-up are kerlo, warrie, and my real name. And possibly ihope.
05:05:18 <GregorR> Is your real name a big secret? :P
05:05:39 <GregorR> How 'bout "write"? I'll give you the nick "write" if you promise to use it exclusively for at least 12 months ;P
05:05:51 * oerjan swats GregorR -----###
05:06:01 <oerjan> you WICKED, WICKED man
05:07:17 <oerjan> for the "write" thing, that is.
05:07:24 <oerjan> just in case you wondered.
05:07:29 <Warrigal> It's not a big secret. I sent you a friend request on Facebook.
05:07:34 <Warrigal> And everyone on Sine has access to it.
05:07:47 <GregorR> Warrigal: I probably rejected it when I went "whoTF is this"
05:07:57 <GregorR> And it was a picture of your feet, or dog, or something.
05:08:17 <Warrigal> My profile picture is a picture of me holding a mug. The thumbnail is the mug.
05:08:28 <Warrigal> But you apparently don't remember.
05:08:52 <GregorR> I vaguely recall a mug picture, I'm pretty sure I rejected it because the profile picture was a mug and I didn't recognize the name.
05:10:33 * oerjan suddenly envisions the "fiend" request
05:11:09 * GregorR looked up through the backlog for that typo, only to realize you'd typod it only in your brain :P
05:11:34 <oerjan> unless it's in _your_ brain
05:11:45 <GregorR> I assumed somebody had typod it as "fiend request" in the first place, which put you down that train of thought.
05:12:02 <oerjan> when did a single letter ever stop me?
05:12:02 <GregorR> But that transition was in your head, not on the channel :P
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05:20:43 * oerjan hates those humming machines, too
05:23:14 <GregorR> I'm a rare breed, a computer scientist that loves computers :P
05:23:55 <Warrigal> Everyone in the world is a computer scientist that loves computers.
05:24:22 * pikhq is engaged to his computer
05:24:54 * GregorR is a computer polygamist, but some bigwigs say that means our love isn't real.
05:25:29 <pikhq> I've also got a compu-mistress.
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12:04:17 <AnMaster> I had such a strange dream tonight. That I was buying one of those ultra-speed compact flash cards. You know, those that "300x" on them. Except it said (471+3i)x=4 on it instead...
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12:56:03 <MizardX> Dreaming of imaginary numbers... You just finished some exam?
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13:57:56 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
13:58:36 <FireFly> Swat BeholdMyGlory next time he logs on, he crashed my computer >_>
14:08:27 <AnMaster> computer just rebooted by itself.
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14:12:11 <fizzie> Those might be just electricity-supply issues. At least I have one box that is keen to reboot if there's any sort of very temporary voltage drop or anything. (Well, unless you have an UPS in there.)
14:23:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, no UPS, so I guess it is possible
14:25:48 <AnMaster> however I also suspect that the PSU fan is; if not dying; at least ready for the retirement home...
14:26:10 <AnMaster> so it could be another symptom of the PSU nearing end of life
14:56:55 <AnMaster> with git, how do you revert local changes in one file. Like svn revert foo.c would do. It seems git revert doesn't do that.
14:58:08 <AnMaster> there seems to be "git reset" but I can't get it to work on just one file
14:58:53 <fizzie> According to some blog, you should just "git checkout filename".
14:59:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah thanks, that seems to work
14:59:39 <AnMaster> a bit illogical to me, but meh
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16:20:27 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: A trainload of gravy! | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D.
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16:26:12 <whtspc> I have the final specification for my lang
16:26:31 <whtspc> but I am ope for criticism
16:27:05 <whtspc> The language is based on NAND-logic and it has no other syntax-elements than variable-names
16:27:28 * GregorR-L chooses to read that typo as "I a mope for criticism" instead of "I am open for criticism", and interprets that to mean that if we criticize, you will mope.
16:27:47 <whtspc> At the start every possible variable is set to false
16:28:22 <whtspc> actually everytime the program encounters an undefined variable, it creates this variable and sets it to false
16:29:02 <whtspc> the behaviour of the program is defined by the amount of words in a sentence
16:29:31 <whtspc> *A three word sentence:
16:30:24 <whtspc> define A , B and C as variables and set them to false
16:30:52 <whtspc> because we haven't encountered these variables before
16:31:27 <whtspc> the rule of a 3 word sentence is that the first word is the NAND of the second and third
16:31:59 <whtspc> so in this case A = 0 NAND 0 = 1
16:32:55 <whtspc> the words A B and C aren't very original variablenames
16:33:13 <whtspc> if I would have written:
16:33:57 <whtspc> red would be 1, spinach 0 and garden 0
16:35:10 <whtspc> if you want to know how NAND-logic works, you can check it here:
16:35:12 <whtspc> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NAND_logic
16:36:12 <whtspc> *An eight word sentence
16:37:01 <oerjan> wait, you are using * for bullet points? a bit confusing here on irc :D
16:37:21 <whtspc> I don't know much about irc
16:37:39 <oerjan> we usually use * for corrections here
16:38:29 <whtspc> the 8 variablenames in the eight word sentence represent a byte
16:38:45 <whtspc> wherein the true are 1's and the falses are 0
16:39:03 <whtspc> it outputs an ascii character
16:39:42 <whtspc> last language feature is the one word sentence
16:39:51 <oerjan> also, ascii is 7 bits *ducks*
16:40:22 <GregorR-L> Should output Unicode codepoints >: )
16:40:35 <whtspc> if the variable named in the one word sentence is true
16:41:25 <whtspc> program pointer moves back line after the previous sentence that's exactly the same
16:41:38 <whtspc> if there isn't any ignore
16:42:27 <whtspc> i think it has pretty strong computional powers
16:42:29 <oerjan> no way to skip forward?
16:43:02 <whtspc> how would you see that?
16:43:27 <whtspc> but I haven't got very good sample programs yet
16:43:50 <whtspc> the following is the first two letters of Hello world
16:43:55 <oerjan> it seems to have finite memory though
16:44:39 <whtspc> yeah, you can't enlarge memory
16:45:09 <whtspc> i mean there's just as much space as variablenames called in the program
16:46:28 <whtspc> you are a bit disappointed :) ?
16:46:53 <oerjan> actually the looping way was sorta interesting
16:49:25 <whtspc> i will write program to output the fibonacci sequence (a finite part of it)
16:49:33 <whtspc> to make people enthousiast
16:52:03 <ais523> whtspc: why not put the specs for this on our wiki?
16:53:45 <whtspc> i don't know if i can do that without discussing here?
16:54:23 <oerjan> well you have to fill out the correct forms first of course, in triplicate.
16:54:30 <ais523> Esolang's rule is more or less "you can put anything esolang-related there, unless it's blatantly stupid, even if you created it yourself and nobody else knows about it"
16:54:59 <whtspc> i tried to be polite :)
16:55:01 <oerjan> actually i haven't noticed much enforcement of the blatantly stupid rule...
16:55:29 <ais523> oerjan: yes, I know, it's hard to get a consensus
16:55:50 <oerjan> some things have been deleted for not being esoteric, i recall
16:56:11 <oerjan> didn't someone suggest a name yesterday...
16:56:14 <whtspc> does ferNANDo sound ok?
16:59:16 * oerjan _knows_ this requires a barrage of abba puns but isn't in the mood
17:25:57 <pikhq> oerjan: I think about the only thing that's *blatantly* stupid is LOLCODE. :P
17:27:01 <pikhq> "Let's map Brainfuck to... Other symbols!"
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17:27:41 <GregorR-L> I actually don't think that EgoBot supports ANY of those.
17:27:54 <oerjan> GregorR-L: yes it does, i added Ook
17:28:18 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney dc drawl dubya echo ehird fudd google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck rot13 sadbf slashes swedish valspeak warez yodawg
17:28:30 <GregorR-L> Then why didn't it say anything? Oh, because that had no output :P
17:28:42 <oerjan> i don't even know what it does :D
17:28:52 <oerjan> also, it may or may not be buggy
17:29:02 <EgoBot> perl (sending via DCC)
17:29:17 <ais523> personally, I'd put BestFriends.js at least in the dubious category
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17:29:45 <oerjan> ok that has to be buggy, it requires trailing space
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17:30:23 <oerjan> i replace newlines with space and EgoBot ends everything with newline
17:30:47 <oerjan> (it must have worked because i probably tested it on at least one program)
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17:31:23 <oerjan> although mainly i put it there as a perl hack that called the bf interpreter
17:32:28 <oerjan> !ook ++++++++[->++++++++<]>. It supports bf too
17:32:39 <ais523> you're reminding me of when I got Thutubot to support Haskell
17:32:49 <ais523> it worked by getting it to ask lambdabot, then relaying its response back to the channel
17:33:37 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
17:33:48 <GregorR-L> Oh yeah, I never got Haskell working, because GHC was unfriendly.
17:36:09 <Hiato> ASM? How might that work, GregoR?
17:38:03 <pikhq> It's a deliciously evil hack.
17:40:12 <Hiato> Demonstration? Ie, waht does it accept, does it compile etc? :P Wanna know if I can do some ileegal memory mods to that machine ;)
17:43:57 <pikhq> It accepts everything.
17:44:25 <Gracenotes> for i in `seq 6 23`; do unrar x *1x$i*1.rar; done ... yay linux.
17:44:48 <pikhq> Of course, there's only so much damage you can do; it's in a chroot, running in a Xen VM.
17:45:35 <GregorR-L> pikhq: The code is: <a bunch of includes> int main(int argc, char **argv) { <user code>; return 0; }
17:45:36 <ais523> but I'm pretty sure that unlink is blocked by the sandbox
17:46:53 <pikhq> GregorR-L: Even if you hand it something with main supplied?
17:47:05 <GregorR-L> pikhq: It tries with the above first, then as a complete file.
17:47:12 <pikhq> !c int main(){printf("Lame.\n");}
17:48:08 <lifthrasiir> !c extern int foo(void); printf("%d\n", foo()); } int foo(void) { return 42;
17:48:43 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Beautiful.
17:48:44 <GregorR-L> lifthrasiir: You realize that you're not taking advantage of anything by making code in an odd way that you could make anyway, right? :P
17:49:02 <pikhq> !c int foo(void){return 42;} printf("%d\n",foo());
17:49:21 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: Valid GNU C.
17:49:32 <GregorR-L> I should make it use TCC out of spite.
17:49:46 <pikhq> GregorR-L: ... I think TCC also implements that.
17:49:55 <pikhq> (TCC implements at least some of GNU C)
17:50:21 <pikhq> How's about the Portable C Compiler?
17:50:35 <pikhq> (the *second* C compiler ever. ... Still maintained.)
17:51:30 <pikhq> The BSDs are wanting to use it instead of GCC.
17:51:44 <pikhq> IIRC, NetBSD has it lined up for their next release as the system CC.
17:52:25 <GregorR-L> I thought that was only true of Free(?)BSD
17:54:19 <ais523> wrf? Using the ehird meaning of "apparently", apparently in some cases IE8 can delete essential boot files in Windows whenever a computer with it installed on is booted, even if you don't run it
17:54:22 * pikhq futzes with Windows VM.
17:54:24 <ais523> http://geekblog.oneandoneis2.org/index.php/2009/06/13/they-outdid-themselves
17:54:44 <ais523> also, I thought some of the BSDs were planning to change to clang rather than pcc
17:55:14 <pikhq> ais523: I think that it's a matter of "We can use PCC *now*, and switch to clang later."
17:56:28 <pikhq> God damned Windows.
17:57:33 * ais523 reads about a critical security bug in Java on OSX
17:57:48 <GregorR-L> Meanwhile, GNU/Linux is all "Yeah, we like GCC. That's right bitches."
17:57:50 <ais523> and how somebody made a webpage that exploits the bug to install a fix for it on the user's computer
17:57:59 <pikhq> Oh, yeah. That one.
17:58:02 <ais523> GregorR-L: well, gcc is required to compile Linux
17:58:13 <pikhq> TCC also compiles Linux.
17:58:20 <ais523> so it tends to be on most Linux computers to compile kernel modules
17:58:29 <ais523> I thought it was really dependent on gcc misfeatures
17:58:31 <GregorR-L> ais523: It was required to compile BSD until they made a concerted effort to change that.
17:58:39 <pikhq> And TCC has GCC misfeatures.
17:59:15 <pikhq> Ever checked out that bootloader that *compiles* Linux and then boots it?
17:59:18 <pikhq> That's TCC in action.
17:59:37 <ais523> I admit, I didn't even think about the possibility of storing your kernel in source form
17:59:53 <ais523> someone should make a fully source-based distro now
17:59:59 <ais523> which doesn't have any executables, except a compiler
18:00:06 <ais523> not even that if you can manage it somehow
18:00:24 <pikhq> A compiler? Screw that.
18:00:29 <ais523> the syscall to run a program could be hooked in order to compile it first, then run the resulting executable
18:00:29 <pikhq> TCC is also a C interpreter.
18:00:46 <ais523> but unfortunately, how would you run TCC without a binary sitting around somewhere?
18:00:56 <pikhq> Prepend all your source with #!/usr/bin/tcc -run
18:01:02 <pikhq> Such a shame you need to have TCC.
18:01:13 <ais523> yes, that's the problem
18:01:21 <ais523> you're going to need a C interp/compiler to run files written in C
18:01:41 <ais523> I suppose you could use suuda or something in order to have all the files on your system as text files
18:01:58 <pikhq> And probably also libraries; I don't know how freaking crazy TCC is.
18:01:58 <ais523> but they'd still be "binaries", just binaries written with ASCII printable characters
18:02:46 <pikhq> Y'know what else would be fun? Have the entire distro be LVM binaries.
18:03:20 <ais523> someone should write a hardware JIT
18:06:10 <pikhq> How the crap do you make a program that overwrites boot.ini?
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18:12:57 <ais523> pikhq: one very plausible theory I saw was that it was a bad interaction between its installer and antivirus software
18:13:09 <ais523> apparently the installer modifies boot.ini to specify that it needs to do some finalisation after the boot
18:13:38 <ais523> and the antivirus software is causing the file to be deleted rather than modified due to a bug
18:14:49 <ais523> hmm... the linux equivalent would be adding a one-time process to init.d
18:14:58 <ais523> or whatever init system you happen to be using
18:15:08 <ais523> well, that would be the sane way
18:15:30 <pikhq> The Linux equivalent would be not having to reboot.
18:15:43 <ais523> an exact equivalent would be rewriting LILO's / GRUB's boot information to change the default init program from init to a wrapper
18:16:00 <ais523> and yes, the problem would almost certainly not come up in the first place
18:16:09 <pikhq> Which is, of course, freaking crazy.
18:16:29 <pikhq> All because Windows hates dynamic library versioning and deleting files that are still open.
18:17:00 <ais523> I almost want to write a Linux installer that does its work in a wrapper around init, now
18:17:16 <ais523> not for any good reason, though
18:17:18 <pikhq> God, what an awful hack.
18:17:29 <pikhq> I don't think I'd run such an installer outside of UML.
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18:17:45 <ais523> would you run it inside UML?
18:18:03 <pikhq> For mere curiosity's sake.
18:18:16 <ais523> UML = the OO description language, here/
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18:19:22 <pikhq> Y'know, Linux for Linux? :P
18:19:30 <Asztal> the WoW installer overwrote boot.ini by adding an extra backslash to the start of the file, so it was overwriting \boot.ini instead of its own boot.ini
18:19:50 <ais523> Linux runs on so many things nowadays, I'm not at all surprised that it runs on Linux
18:20:18 <Asztal> linux runs on windows too
18:20:24 <pikhq> I wish that the Cygwin port of it was maintained, though.
18:20:43 <pikhq> Asztal: CoLinux runs Linux /beside/ Windows in the same address space. Slight difference.
18:21:28 <pikhq> (think "cooperative multitasking". ;))
18:22:00 * oerjan whips up an implementation of FerNANDo in haskell, just because: http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/FerNANDo.hs
18:22:10 <oerjan> too bad whtspc left without me noticing
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18:30:21 <ais523> two OSes doing cooperative multitasking is scary enough as it is
18:39:55 <pikhq> Yeah, CoLinux is rather... Crazy.
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20:52:45 <pikhq> Related is the phrase 'stab'.
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22:55:45 <ehird> 04:04:17 <AnMaster> I had such a strange dream tonight. That I was buying one of those ultra-speed compact flash cards. You know, those that "300x" on them. Except it said (471+3i)x=4 on it instead...
22:55:54 <ehird> x = 317/36975 - 2i/36975
22:56:07 <ehird> (~= 0.0084922 - 0.0000541i)
22:56:25 <pikhq> Which is a small, barely-complex number.
22:56:52 <ehird> pikhq: "barely complex" :D
22:57:08 <ehird> i actually just did http://www19.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=solve+%28471%2B3i%29x%3D4
22:57:12 <ehird> but it's cooler to imagine I worked it out.
22:58:21 <pikhq> Not very hard algebra, though.
22:58:36 <ehird> but it looks complex before you think about it :P
22:58:53 <pikhq> Actually, it *is* complex.
22:59:33 <ehird> 06:58:53 <fizzie> According to some blog, you should just "git checkout filename".
22:59:34 <ehird> 06:59:19 <fizzie> Away for now.
22:59:35 <ehird> 06:59:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, ah thanks, that seems to work
22:59:37 <ehird> 06:59:39 <AnMaster> a bit illogical to me, but meh
22:59:39 <ehird> you're checking it out from the head revision
22:59:41 <ehird> what's odd about that?
22:59:45 <ehird> you can check a file out from any revision
22:59:48 <ehird> remember, a revision is a tree
23:00:03 <ehird> but it's not in a very native-OS-filesystemy sort of format
23:00:11 <ehird> so checkout checks out a file from a tree and puts it in your working dir
23:01:28 <ehird> i've actually found something that makes me willing to PAY for software
23:02:25 <ehird> http://store.steampowered.com/sub/1134/ All of Valve's games for £53 (= $86, though I hear it's $99 in the US.). That's 22 games for the price of 2, coming to £89 cheaper than buying it separately.
23:02:41 <ehird> I can't imagine it's terribly profitable. :p
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23:12:10 <pikhq> ehird: $0.00 marginal cost.
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23:12:54 * pikhq has had a very long day at work.
23:13:06 <pikhq> What's more, Windows *administration*.
23:13:18 <ehird> pikhq: alt.sysadmin.recovery is that way →
23:13:32 * pikhq too lazy to set up a Usenet client
23:13:43 <ehird> pikhq: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sysadmin.recovery/topics
23:13:49 <pikhq> Or get on Google Groups.
23:13:56 <ehird> clicking is hard :)
23:14:07 <pikhq> Especially when you mostly use a mouse.
23:14:36 <ehird> pikhq: So tempted to dig up the paper proving that kb+mouse is more efficient than the kb
23:14:43 <ehird> it just feels slower due to a distorted sense of time we have
23:14:57 * pikhq wonders what interface was used for that
23:15:04 <ehird> pikhq: Plan 9, bitch.
23:15:34 <pikhq> (to be fair, I *do* use a mouse. Just not all that much.)
23:15:37 <ehird> pikhq: Face it — your brain wants you to be less productive ;-)
23:15:58 <pikhq> This is why I read Slashdot and Fark.
23:16:19 <ehird> pikhq: i'll amend that — your brain wants to rot.
23:16:50 <pikhq> No, it doesn't. It desires the opposite.
23:17:00 <pikhq> It just sucks at getting what it wants.
23:19:52 <ehird> "Sorry folks, I recovered last year. Time to deprecate this outdated puppy. I'll be nuking the entire page in a few weeks/months." — text on a page from 1996
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23:44:49 <ehird> 09:29:17 <ais523> personally, I'd put BestFriends.js at least in the dubious category
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