00:04:02 -!- ASSCRESTME has changed nick to ACMESTRESS. 00:28:01 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:34:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:43:01 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection reset by peer). 00:45:41 -!- AnMaster has joined. 00:51:42 -!- SimonRC has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 00:52:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:58:32 -!- jix_ has joined. 01:04:48 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 01:11:15 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:26:32 -!- ACMESTRESS has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 02:11:32 -!- ACMESTRESS has joined. 03:02:59 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:11:12 -!- ACMESTRESS has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 03:12:51 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:13:07 -!- ACMESTRESS has joined. 03:14:17 -!- augur has joined. 03:30:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:31:24 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:48:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:48:45 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:20:34 -!- chromakode has joined. 04:20:44 -!- chromakode has left (?). 04:20:45 ASSCRESTME? Hum. 04:40:26 who cares 05:19:15 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 05:19:18 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:35:57 -!- immibis has joined. 06:06:14 -!- ACMESTRESS has quit ("Computer has gone to sleep"). 06:12:42 acmestress? 06:12:54 acme stress? wtf? 06:16:19 AC mistress 06:27:13 what 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:18 ACME stress is the stress provoked by dynamite explosion 08:10:20 \o\ 08:10:20 | 08:10:20 /| 08:10:25 | 08:10:27 | 08:10:28 | 08:10:30 | 08:10:37 /o/ 08:10:37 | 08:10:37 /< 08:10:51 _o_ 08:10:51 | 08:10:51 /`\ 08:11:06 \ \ 08:11:11 \ \ 08:11:14 \ \ 08:12:28 \o/ 08:12:28 | 08:12:28 /´\ 08:12:32 \ 08:12:43 fail 08:43:36 what's a good client that supports utf-8? 08:44:00 08:44:17 od client that supports utf-8? 08:44:17 [19:43] 08:44:20 oops 08:44:41 and copy-pastes properly 08:55:46 /o/ 08:55:46 | 08:55:47 /| 08:55:54 \o\ 08:55:54 | 08:55:54 /'\ 08:56:05 /o\ 08:56:10 No? 08:56:19 _o_ bu-n! 08:56:19 | 08:56:20 /< 08:57:26 there are six outgoing irc connections from normish? (and four logged in users) 08:57:47 cronjobos? 08:57:49 *jobs 08:58:02 also valgrind is slow 08:58:35 or screen 08:58:40 or they just left their computer on 08:58:47 yay 08:58:51 no memory errors in my code 08:59:06 one user has four connections O_o 08:59:08 which is always a good sign, especially when chasing memory bugs 08:59:32 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:00:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:07:06 * immibis does something 09:07:13 YOU! 09:07:23 ? 09:10:51 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:13:48 ais523, you made a rubicon forum account? 09:15:57 immibis: yes 09:16:09 so did you 09:16:11 although less recently 09:16:51 i solved your puzzles #1 and #3, i think the machine in my solution to #3 has been around for a while 09:20:03 yep, a selection sort 09:20:16 my solution to #3 is an insertion sort, which I think is pretty elegant in Rubicon 09:22:12 -!- Co-Run has joined. 09:23:56 and your solution to #1 is faster than mine 09:23:56 or to put it another way, mine is even slower than yours 09:24:13 post them 09:24:17 your solutions 09:24:39 immibis: I already have, on the warehouse search 09:24:55 I thought everyone used that... 09:25:57 no, the forums 09:27:03 mostly people use the forums - warehousing them allows you to specify a title, name, category, and means it is permanently stored 09:27:38 lets you link solutions to levels too 09:27:53 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.). 09:28:02 -!- tetha has joined. 09:28:15 xkcd :D 09:28:25 -!- mtd has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:29:18 oerjan : :D 09:29:36 I wonder if there's a dude with an Erdos number in my university 09:30:01 certainly 09:30:08 oerjan: ? 09:30:40 -!- Co-Run has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:30:47 ais523: what puzzles? 09:31:06 http://kevan.org/rubicon/forums/index.php/topic,330.0.html 09:31:06 -!- Corun has joined. 09:31:09 immibis: xkcd.com 09:31:18 what about it i mean 09:31:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdos_number 09:31:30 coppro: see immibis' link 09:32:50 -!- Corun_ has joined. 09:33:32 * oerjan notes that Munroe put an accent on Erdos, but the wrong one. 09:33:32 * immibis notes that Munroe put an accent on Erdos, but the wrong one. 09:33:46 yay a new time waster 09:33:48 I mean 09:33:51 * oerjan swats immibis -----### 09:33:52 * immibis swats oerjan -----### 09:33:52 I don't know how to type double-acute, anyway 09:33:55 boo, time waster :( 09:34:04 coppro: time to make another nomic contract? 09:34:05 damn, i forgot to make it so it only responds if my name is mentioned 09:34:16 ais523: very possibly :D 09:34:18 and that appears to me as: [20:33] --> [#esoteric] ACTION swats oerjan -----### 09:35:06 because the script uses: SendCommand "/ctcp "+Channel+" ACTION "+... 09:35:17 otherwise it would go to the channel i was in instead of the one it was sent in 09:36:11 immibis: do actions taken by that script count as you doing them? 09:37:13 No. 09:37:22 otherwise what do you think would happen? 09:37:27 * immibis does something 09:37:37 * immibis notices this is only said once 09:37:41 -!- mtd has joined. 09:37:49 immibis: myndzi's script caused a massive row over at Agora Nomic 09:37:51 still is, in fact 09:38:44 can i see it online? 09:38:53 let me look for it 09:41:31 list archive is only accessible to list members... 09:41:54 yes, there are public archives too but they aren't linked for some reason 09:42:11 I'm looking for the relevant messages on the CotC server, but it's being really slow atm 09:43:31 immibis: http://zenith.homelinux.net/cotc/viewcase.php?cfj=2586 is the court case 09:43:40 but part of the row was that the relevant evidence wasn't attached to it 09:44:43 immibis: here's the myndzi-related parts of the business archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=myndzi&l=agora-business%40agoranomic.org 09:49:03 ais523: what do barrels do? 09:49:08 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:49:11 coppro: same thing as crates 09:49:17 -!- Corun_ has changed nick to Corun. 09:49:18 but involving barrels in arithmetic gives you barrels not crates 09:49:27 and barrels can't be used to satisfy victory conditions 09:49:28 and you can't win with them? 09:49:32 ok 09:50:33 the point is that you can still use put data in the level but you can't just put the right number on top of the target and win easily 09:51:47 right 09:52:00 btw just try and make me register on agora with my script 09:52:19 immibis: because you want to run a test? 09:52:30 on the script? yes 09:52:37 we've registered entities which weren't actually playing for ages, including the entire country of Canada 09:52:43 anyway, let's try 09:52:44 not registered 09:52:45 !? 09:52:53 coppro: oh, right, just declared Canada to be a person 09:53:03 immibis: not any of its citizens; just Canada itself 09:53:57 It was part of a (successful) attempt to make Canada win 09:54:01 * ais523 agrees to the following private contract with immibis, binding under the rules of Agora: {Any party to this contract can act on behalf of any other party to cause em to register. This contract terminates 4 hours after it is created.} 09:54:08 heh, immibis turned off the script 09:54:51 ok try it now 09:54:55 * ais523 agrees to the following private contract with immibis, binding under the rules of Agora: {Any party to this contract can act on behalf of any other party to cause em to register. This contract terminates 4 hours after it is created.} 09:54:56 * immibis agrees to the following private barbeque with ais523, binding under the rules of Agora: {Any IRC channel to this barbeque can act on behalf of any other IRC channel to cause em to register. This barbeque terminates 4 hours after it is created.} 09:55:06 haha 09:55:39 although that gives me an idea for a different test 09:55:54 is it just me, or is it odd that private contracts by default are joined by announcement? 09:56:03 coppro: agreed it's odd 09:56:09 but this conversation should probably move to ##nomic 09:56:44 noes! 09:56:48 I defined the wrong symbol! 09:56:54 have to do another hourlong recompile! 09:57:00 hourlong recompiles 09:57:01 ? 09:57:03 ARGH OH MY GOD ITS THE END OF THE WORLD 09:57:03 what are you compiling? 09:57:05 are you using make? 09:57:11 make -j 09:57:16 it runs the compiles in parallel 09:57:21 a wxWidgets application and yes, even with -j still takes forever 09:57:24 immibis: not all makefiles work with -j 09:57:32 because they're often badly written 09:57:35 also make sure to set a reasonable limit on -j 09:57:37 eg 09:57:43 make -j 15 09:57:44 (C-INTERCAL works fine with -j, though) 09:57:48 thankfully this one works with -j 09:58:00 probably because it's autotools 09:58:14 but anyway, it's a wxWidgets application and I think there's a problem in w 09:58:16 *wx 09:58:32 so I need to compile the debug version of the library, which is NOT ABI-compatible (yes, really) 09:58:39 btw i am in ##nomic if you still want to try and make me register 09:58:39 err, not the debug version 09:58:45 but recompile my code to the debug library 09:59:41 on the plus side, thanks so some recent sanitization that I think is due to GTK, I can now actually find what I'm looking for in the Valgrind output 09:59:46 and hopefully fix this bug once and for all 10:06:58 -!- Corun has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:07:37 -!- Corun has joined. 10:09:04 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 10:16:11 bug: sefault 10:16:19 solution: run program in valgrind always 10:16:55 GAH 10:17:02 WHAT IDIOT OPTIMIZED THE DEBUGGING LIBRARIES 10:21:02 sorry, am now really annoyed 10:21:10 we can tell 10:21:43 seriously, who optimizes debugging libraries? 10:22:06 -!- atrapado has joined. 10:22:53 any void here 10:23:19 no void 10:23:21 just a void* 10:23:23 :( 10:23:32 ah 10:23:42 or maybe a void** 10:23:54 are you pointing to something that points to something 10:23:58 yes 10:24:20 then fire ! 10:24:23 ** 10:24:28 fire**? 10:24:41 yes, dereference the gun 10:31:03 and shake the body of the function 10:31:43 coppro: well, I optimize libyuk 10:31:47 and that's a library which is also a debugger 10:33:52 that's different 10:33:59 you aren't optimizing the debug verison of it, do you? 10:41:06 -!- immibis has quit ("When the chips are down, well, the buffalo is empty"). 10:50:12 -!- M0ny has quit. 10:52:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it"). 11:01:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:51:35 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:51:44 ais523: what do you do 11:51:56 atrapado: I'm an electronic and computer engineer 11:52:18 yo do computers or computers with computers 11:55:49 ok i am computer scientist 11:56:20 and technical developer 11:56:41 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:57:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:00:27 ais523: problems with connection ? 12:00:31 yep 12:00:40 the wireless here is rather dodgy 12:02:32 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:03:00 you will have to de wire less it 12:03:05 or wire it 12:04:14 or use a different connection 12:04:20 we aren't allowed to use wired connections here 12:04:27 ah no ? 12:04:33 I don't have wireless at home 12:04:33 why 12:04:37 this is the university connection 12:04:44 ah ok, there are no plugs 12:04:49 and their wireless routers handle people's laptops, the wired ones don't 12:04:58 there /are/ plugs, but you get in trouble if you try to use them 12:05:02 and also, they don't work 12:05:08 because it's tied to a MAC address 12:06:08 i see 12:06:23 and is cyphered the air ? 12:06:39 yes 12:06:45 that's the real problem, the authentication here is really complex 12:06:53 and every now and then the routers decide you aren't allowed to use them 12:06:55 for no good reason 12:07:08 yes, encryption in an illusion 12:09:24 i am thinking about break it 12:11:31 i will start reversing md5 12:16:10 and then sha1 12:16:13 and then sha256 12:16:18 and then chaos 12:16:20 as before 12:18:17 atrapado: just build a quantum computer 12:18:20 that'll be more generally useful 12:19:07 yes, but i am thinking about what is the most useful thing i can do with this computers, and is break the illusions of cryptography 12:20:20 and all that is build over them 12:27:03 and break unix if i can 12:27:15 and build a better thing 12:51:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:58:38 -!- atrapado has quit ("WeeChat 0.2.6.3"). 13:31:08 haha: Windows 7's version number is not actually 7 13:31:09 http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2008/10/14/why-7.aspx 13:31:28 apparently it's 6.1, because loads of applications break when they change the Windows major version number 13:32:35 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:36:15 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:58:56 ais523: laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawl 14:01:57 "Windows 6.1" just doesn't have the same ring to it. 14:02:29 Also, "application compatibility" means some retard was stupid enough to do if (WindowsGetMajorRevisionNumberEx() == 6) instead of >= 6 14:09:07 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:09:21 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:15:28 err 14:15:37 didn't they change major number at vista? 14:15:53 so wouldn't that have broken lots of stuff too? 14:17:21 Yes, that's why they didn't change it at 7. 14:17:28 hm 14:17:33 * 6.1 14:17:44 Which means that when people "fixed" things for Vista, they "fixed" them with == instead of >= :P 14:17:51 Because they didn't learn their bloody lessons. 14:17:56 they are two different integers right? as in int major; int minor;? 14:18:05 * AnMaster prefers when both are packed into one 14:18:08 well, my guess is that people expect programs to break across Windows major versions 14:18:09 At least three it seems. 14:18:11 so used == deliberately 14:18:30 I know I expect programs to break over Windows major versions, just based on personal experience 14:18:37 like MMmmpp so 7.0.1 would be #define FOO_VERSION 070001 14:18:43 which is way easier to compare against 14:19:23 since you don't have to do "if (major == 7 && patch >= 1) || (major > 7)" or similar 14:20:08 ais523, I don't remember ever having an old program break on a new Mac OS Classic version. No idea about OS X since I haven't used it a lot. 14:20:37 but on classic MacOS you could easily run system 6 or system 7 programs on MacOS 9 14:20:46 in my experience that is 14:22:20 I wonder why http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Static_single_assignment_form has valgrind listed in "See also" 14:22:27 Mac OS X is /all about/ breaking things between versions. 14:22:29 there is no other mention of valgrind in the page... 14:22:43 and valgrind is afaik totally unrelated to SSA 14:23:05 AnMaster: Valgrind authors go around to very-indirectly-related pages and add themselves to "see also" 14:23:19 GregorR, [citation needed] 14:23:32 laaaaaaaaaaawl 14:23:35 I have a hard time to believe that is not a joke 14:23:54 but since you said that so seriously, it is hard to know. 14:23:55 That's because it is a joke you oblivious person you :P 14:25:04 I find humor in others' struggle to determine whether I'm joking. 14:25:09 Therefore net humor goes up either way. 14:25:40 I saw a reference recently to "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies" 14:25:44 and it reminded me of GregorR 14:25:56 That's ... interesting :P 14:26:31 I saw a reference recently to "Pride and Prejudice and Zombies" <-- err... Isn't the first three words the title of some famous book iirc. 14:26:38 yes 14:26:43 it is that famous book, just with more zombies 14:26:53 Actually the first four words. "Pride and Prejudice and" 14:26:56 It's a cliffhanger title. 14:27:15 I haven't read that book though. But from what remember hearing about it... zombies seems very out of place. 14:27:29 Zombies + upper-class twits = perfect combo. 14:28:02 (My summary of Pride and Prejudice is "upper-class twits", btw) 14:28:24 err... it actually exists? 14:29:07 how did someone even get the idea "lets make a parody of Pride and Prejudice that adds zombies"... 14:29:38 *ahem*, zombies + upper-class twits = perfect combo. 14:30:01 GregorR, I'm not sure I agree. 14:32:35 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 14:36:34 ok, can anyone here guess what 'echo 0.15-0.05;' prints in PHP 5.2.4? 14:37:37 ais523, obviously not 0.10. Or you wouldn't have asked. 14:37:42 yep 14:37:46 it prints 0.0: 14:37:48 with a colon 14:37:51 ais523, is it only that specific version? 14:37:54 apparently so 14:37:58 ais523, weird bug 14:38:08 It gives 0.1 in 5.2.8 here. 14:38:25 0.15 - 0.05 = 0.09999999999999999167 14:38:38 and PHP apparently rounds the 9 up to a colon 14:38:42 which is the next character in ASCII 14:38:48 hahah 14:39:33 I wonder how it does floating point to text conversion then... 14:39:47 obviously it doesn't use the one found in libc 14:39:51 or that wouldn't have happened 14:39:53 Ah, I thought : was below 0, not after 9. I was wondering how it got there. 14:39:54 but why not 14:40:43 clearly using snprintf isn't good enough for php 14:43:40 Hm I haven't found any good online resource for how to implement SSA. I mean, the actual algorithms, what sort of data structure works and so on. 14:43:49 structures* 14:43:54 work* 14:44:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:59:59 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 15:04:47 interesting, I have some sort of semi SSA, which is correct, but can't correctly be converted back... 15:05:44 * AnMaster tries to work out some other way to convert back to non-SSA form 15:06:41 (or semi-SSA rather, as I haven't implemented the parts to handle branches yet, so currently it only works inside a single basic blocks.) 15:10:07 bbl 15:24:15 -!- ACMESTRESS has joined. 15:31:15 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 16:03:47 sort(ACMESTRESS) 16:03:49 ACEEMRSSST 16:07:45 Interesa. 16:08:09 sort(Interesa) 16:08:11 Iaenrst 16:08:25 Stupid ASCII 16:08:35 GregorR-L: for a moment, I thought you were getting EgoBot to do that 16:08:45 Hah 16:10:49 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:12:31 -!- Corun has joined. 16:13:06 !sh echo I\'m hackable, lawl 16:13:06 I'm hackable, lawl 16:13:48 sort(Łàẅłŝ) 16:17:20 !swedish I'm hackable, lawl 16:17:21 I'm heckeble-a, levl 16:19:33 "levl" :P 16:20:05 !swedish Łàẅłŝ 16:20:06 Łàẅłŝ 16:20:19 Too foreign for the chef, huh? 16:21:03 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:21:39 It's already swedish, duh 16:22:31 !swedish level 16:22:32 lefel 16:22:33 Erm. 16:22:38 !swedish levl 16:22:39 lefl 16:22:43 Doesn't stop it there. 16:22:47 !swedish lefl 16:22:48 leffl 16:22:51 !swedish leffl 16:22:52 leffffl 16:22:53 Weeeeh 16:22:56 !swedish leffffl 16:22:57 leffffffffl 16:23:03 it's just doubling the fs 16:23:12 NORLY 16:23:17 !swedish NORLY 16:23:18 NORLY 16:23:20 :( 16:38:41 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:57:04 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 17:02:23 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 17:03:04 hey GregorR- I'm expanding my horizons a bit and trying to learn some Javascript, and I was wondering if you could help me debug something. 17:03:28 Potentially. 17:03:36 I'm trying to implement a simple permutation generator in JS and something's tripping me up. Any idea what I'm doing wrong here? http://pastebin.com/m10d6da5c 17:03:50 (Ironically, you're asking this right as I'm writing a presentation on the JS typesystem :P ) 17:04:05 I realize bitwise stuff is kinda hairy in JS, but looking at the docs this seems like it should work 17:04:19 lol 17:04:45 RodgerTheGreat: Stay in here more often, man. :P 17:05:06 Bitwise stuff is actually fairly usable and consistent, so long as you never accidentally make things become floats. 17:05:07 We don't bite, we just do silly stuff. 17:05:14 !c printf("Really!\n"); 17:05:16 Really! 17:05:23 See, EgoBot agrees! 17:05:26 It's just so much of a pain to connect to two servers. My Wifi is flaky. 17:05:37 That's... Terrible. 17:05:48 Idonno, looks right to me, what's happening? 17:06:43 GregorR-L: well, if you run it, it generates all the combinations like "a b c d e ab ac ad ae abc abd abe" 17:06:45 (Incidentally, you should always declare your variables. Undeclared variables in JS are the root of all evil) 17:06:52 like it's not resetting the bitflags or something? 17:07:10 hm 17:07:27 That's odd. 17:07:34 I guess I can see how that might lead to weird scoping-related shenanigans 17:07:35 Oh 17:07:43 'x' 17:07:46 'x' is global. 17:07:50 Because you didn't declare it. 17:08:00 This is why you declare all your variables :P 17:08:02 oh you're fucking kidding 17:08:15 why on earth would it work that way? 17:08:31 The alternative is PHP-style naming the variables you want to be global. 17:08:47 ... Or having sane scope rules. 17:08:51 The only problem with it, IMHO, is that it doesn't absolutely require that all variables be declared. If it did there would be no problem. 17:09:03 pikhq: It has sane scoping rules, but you can only get so sane when you don't require declarations. 17:09:16 Tcl doesn't require declarations. 17:09:24 ok, so purely for my edification, could you rewrite it with declarations how you'd do it? 17:09:37 RodgerTheGreat: Add "var x;" before the for loop. Done. 17:09:43 The scope for an undeclared variable is... The current scope. 17:09:44 that's it? 17:09:51 RodgerTheGreat: Yup. 17:09:57 pikhq: That's garbage. 17:10:09 pikhq: You happily use x, then some idiot names a top-level variable x and everything breaks. 17:10:19 pikhq: Same with Python, and it's garbage there too. 17:10:20 yeah, that fixed it 17:10:28 good to know 17:10:29 And this is why you declare variables in Tcl. :P 17:10:36 People haven't realized that requiring variable declarations is the /only/ fix to scoping issues. PERIOD. 17:10:56 I'm all for that 17:11:17 there are so few genuine advantages to having undeclared vars anyway 17:11:26 it's just bad coding practice 17:11:44 It's supposed to be a convenience, but it always ends up being a trap *shrugs* 17:12:12 Actually, I don't happen to recall the details of Tcl's scoping rules, but I *think* global variables aren't actually... Global. 17:12:14 like select statements that fall through one another without explicit breaks? 17:12:44 RodgerTheGreat: (I assume you mean cases) Heh, I wurve those :P 17:12:53 Just a sec while I check. 17:13:01 But then, I've had a ton of experience with them, and am extremely used to the intricacies. 17:13:10 case select is one of my largest axes to grind 17:13:18 Yup, I'm right. 17:13:26 it doesn't look like the syntax for any other control structure, damnit! 17:13:41 RodgerTheGreat: It's the syntax for labels and gotos. 17:13:43 Semantics, too. 17:13:49 Global variables aren't global. To reference a global, you have to use $::foo, not $foo. 17:14:01 Or type "global foo". 17:14:10 pikhq: Well, that's disputably better. Sort of. 17:14:23 Requiring a global declaration is the PHP way 17:14:55 pikhq: (Unrelated) DAMN YOU NOW I REALLY WANT TO HEAR O9 PLAYED BY HUMANS >_< 17:15:02 Tcl's scoping rules get a bit tricky, since it's very, very much dynamically scoped. 17:15:44 upvar foo. Bam, now you can access foo in the calling proc. 17:17:47 ... ew :P 17:18:47 That's to let the pass by name semantics work. 17:19:18 (in lieu of pass-by-reference, you can pass by name.) 17:19:31 Ah 17:28:15 yay, I think my cyclic tag in Rubicon is working 17:28:48 http://kevan.org/rubicon/game.php?level=rudofon 17:30:30 I'll improve it a bit before archiving it, though 17:32:12 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:46:58 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:48:58 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:52:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:04:38 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:05:01 Do you people(s) has opinion of patent? I think their should be no patent but you can disagree if you want to 18:05:16 for software patents, I agree 18:05:23 for patenting other things, I'm less sure 18:05:48 Also, the log 09.06.19 has control characters that cannot be viewed as text and therefore is unviewable in my browser 18:05:52 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:06:00 -!- puzzlet has joined. 18:06:11 I am against *all* patents (it is on my Wikipedia user page) 18:06:27 Well, if it's on your Wikipedia user page, then it's Truth. 18:08:34 yeah, why whould some company not need a patent for a new drug which required several millions in investments to get those investments back 18:08:38 medcine is bad anyway 18:09:00 I'm annoyed that there isn't a better method to fund companies to produce drugs 18:09:03 there /ought/ to be one 18:09:07 just I can't think of one 18:09:14 Government funding? 18:09:25 Drug patents are one of the few areas where the current patent system actually works *as designed*. 18:09:29 I know one thing, my company will never patent anything nor allow anyone who runs my company to patent anything, and also not allow these things to be patented by other people/companies because the idea that could be patented are public domain instead 18:09:31 the issue is that the government are incompetent 18:09:36 no matter which government 18:09:46 Yes the government is incompetent in a lot of things 18:10:40 Morse-Thue (or Thue-Morse) sequence in FlogScript: 29 characters. 18:10:41 * ais523 just proved Rubicon Turing-complete, given an infinite playfield 18:10:44 zzo38: I think there are at least two types of patents, purely intelectual ones like 'tabs', and quite physical ones, like drugs mentioned above 18:10:45 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:11:00 zzo38: I think the major difference is the amount of money invested to get that thing you want to patent 18:11:02 actually, drugs are relatively intellectual too 18:11:06 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 18:11:15 you can summarize a drug by its chemical formula 18:11:19 which is short and simple to transmit 18:11:37 ais523: still, a lot of science is needed to get this formula. for tabs, just some hacker had to get this bright idea and then it was there 18:11:38 True. Still, at least the damned patent system *does its job* with those. 18:11:44 Purely physical artistic design non-functional patents should be somehow merged with the trademark system, and other patents should be abolished. 18:11:55 There's a lot of fields (most of them, really) where the patent system doesn't work. 18:12:03 tetha: I agree; the problem is that drugs are hugely expensive to set up in the first place 18:12:11 maybe some sort of bounty system would work 18:12:27 Patents may have worked in the past, but with the way things just are now, patents should no longer exist. 18:12:32 where drug companies, instead of patents, had exclusive rights to their drugs until they'd made a certain amount of profit 18:12:36 pikhq: I am aware of this, there are just areas where patents allow research to go on 18:12:39 In the case of software, because a patent system just plain doesn't work. In the case of most other things, because a patent application doesn't actually describe the invention. 18:12:53 i don't think the real issue is software patents 18:12:58 once they'd got the set amount of profit (which would be quite large, and allow them to recoup all their expenses), it would be opened up to competition 18:13:00 it's hilarious term limits on all patents 18:13:13 "limits" 18:13:18 actually, if term limits were sane, software patents would be too 18:13:27 a sensible time limit for a software patent would be on the order of a couple of months 18:13:37 ACMESTRESS: It's a patent on math. That's not the sole issue with the modern patent system, but it's a large one. 18:13:57 indeed, if you can deevelop the next generation of web browsing, it might be nice that microsoft can't steal it from you the day after you publish it :) 18:14:32 anybody who develops 'the next generation of web browsing' and admits to it is a super duper crackpot 18:14:40 and the reason software patents are unnecessary is that a fair length of time for them to be enforced is about the same length of time it'll take other companies to work out how to copy you anyway 18:14:41 Trademarks and limited copyright are good enough for my company, I won't need patents. For Free Software stuff it will use the normal copyright terms, for non-Free stuff it will use limited copyright terms, in order to make it more fair. 18:14:56 ACMESTRESS: meh, then replace it with a dynamic language as expressive as python, but twice as fast as C 18:15:00 incidentally, the original purpose behind patents was to persuade people to publish details of their inventions 18:15:14 I don't care if Microsoft makes software to do the same thing as long as they do not deny me to do it also. 18:15:16 tetha: twice as fast as C would be rather impressive 18:15:22 tetha: or perhaps a kind of chewing gum that allows you to grow a hand out of your rectum 18:15:28 ok, C isn't the fastest language theoretically possible, but I doubt it's twice as slow as that 18:15:36 ais523: I know. But with the current state of society that is no longer reasonable. 18:15:38 ais523: there are persons who cannot take some silly example as a silly example just to have a name for something 18:15:41 ais523: Not just "original". A patent system that doesn't do that is unconstitutional. 18:15:50 The fastest language is the Osmosian 18:16:04 Slereah: With hand-assembled ASM. 18:16:38 pikhq: most of the countries in the world aren't bound by the US constitution 18:16:39 including mine 18:16:49 True enough. 18:16:57 pikhq: most of the countries in the world aren't bound by the US constitution // OR ARE THEY 18:17:02 Writing in machine codes are make the program run more faster if you know how to optimize the codes. 18:17:18 zzo38: but nobody does, with modern processors 18:17:25 zzo38: probably only for a single machine, though 18:17:26 Sorry, for some reason I assume that these discussions are limited to the US; I forget that it's not just the US being completely and utterly dumb. 18:17:26 a perfectly optimal hello world would probably take years 18:17:33 zzo38: or, rather, a single architecture 18:17:44 pikhq: well, the EU doesn't enforce software patents 18:17:53 Ireland will allow you to file them anyway, but you can't sue over them 18:17:55 I should make the Unpatentable Ideas List, where anyone can post ideas/inventions on that list and automatically makes it public domain and unpatentable. And then the computer will mix them up and make up its own ideas too. 18:18:17 zzo38: Pity that prior art doesn't get to be a reason for a patent to not be accepted. 18:18:32 Microsoft has patents with prior art given in the application. 18:18:33 it is a reason in theory, but in practice, nobody checks 18:19:35 This ideas of "Unpatentable Ideas List" was already done by some people I think, or they are planning to, or something like that, but my idea is to add on to that, the computer will also make up its own ideas as well. 18:21:04 Blacklisting is bad. Whitelisting is good. 18:21:07 -!- ehird_ has joined. 18:21:15 hi ehird_ 18:21:18 ais523: freenode have permanently banned mibbit 18:21:21 for no apparent reason 18:21:23 wow 18:21:29 since yesterday? 18:21:37 I was on here via mibbit then 18:21:55 so im using the shitty pjirc, on a laptop where half the keys--including the apostrophe-- dont work 18:22:02 my neighbours. since our phone line is broken. 18:22:03 O. I just use the (c: copy URL) function of my web-browser to view it downloading by wget. Vonkeror tells me the MIME type is application/octet-stream but wget tells me it is text/plain, why is that? 18:22:10 ais523: yuh 18:22:12 http://blog.mibbit.com/?p=306 18:22:35 anyway, hi! at least, hi until my neighbour decides that theyd quite like their computer back. 18:22:55 ehird_: this is what I've been up to: http://kevan.org/rubicon/game.php?level=voladik 18:23:15 it would be quite nice if pjirc supported clicking links. copy paste time with rubbish nipple mouse, ahoy 18:23:20 oh it does 18:23:21 thats nice 18:23:27 it just doesnt highlight them in any way. 18:23:39 hahaha that just gives you text to copy 18:23:42 kick ass irc client here 18:23:53 does that computer have Java? 18:23:59 I don't mind it nearly as much as I mind Flash 18:24:04 and that's a Java-based game 18:24:11 to be precise, a Turing-completeness proof for it 18:24:18 yes, im talking via a java thingy. 18:24:25 pjirc. worst client, evar 18:24:29 blognomic uses it too for their web chat 18:24:37 lets try this 18:24:38 Use netcat then. 18:24:47 zzo38: if only it had netcat. 18:24:50 it probably has telnet. 18:24:55 but zzo38, half the keys dont work 18:25:01 : does, but thats a miracle 18:25:05 ehird_: windows comes with Telnet, but you have to enable it for some reason 18:25:08 Can that telnet be placed in linemode? In character-mode it won't work well for IRC 18:25:08 i cant even type an apostrophe! 18:25:14 ais523: err, not on the CLI 18:25:22 ehird_: yes on the CLI 18:25:29 but you have to flip an option in the GUI somewhere first 18:25:34 to make the command-line telnet there 18:25:36 odd 18:25:37 by default, it isn't there 18:25:41 and agreed, odd 18:25:48 Is it physically the keyboard that is broken? 18:25:49 ais523: id have thought youd prefer flash to java, it uses ecmascript 18:25:51 :p 18:26:06 I'm of the opinion that Windows should come with Interix. 18:26:10 ... And deprecate Win32. 18:26:13 ehird_: Sun's security record is rather better than Adobe's 18:26:30 ais523: i have no idea how to play that game, but it runs! 18:26:48 ehird_: you know RUBE? 18:26:49 ais523: Java's also free software these days. 18:26:50 [1 -1]{.At{~*.97+2/Pc}%P_F<}~ 18:26:59 And it's quite a bit speedier than Flash. 18:26:59 pikhq: technically speaking, Flash is also an open standard 18:27:04 at least, they opened up the specs 18:27:13 ais523: have you looked at the draconian conditions on it 18:27:20 iirc they include "no third party implementations" 18:27:25 No. Those specs are only available for someone designing a Flash file creator. 18:27:25 ehird_: no, they relaxed the conditions 18:27:27 including that one 18:27:29 also i would quite like a question mark key, maybe ill buy a separate one 18:27:40 pikhq: java is faster than flash, but applets are far more flickery and unreliable 18:27:41 ORLY? 18:27:43 and that's a seriously messed-up keyboard 18:27:51 ais523: well it has the keys, they just dont do anything 18:27:57 ehird_: That's a function of a bad plugin. 18:28:06 Java's pretty stable over here 18:28:16 although it does crash randomly every now and then claiming "out of memory" 18:28:16 pikhq: yes, javas plugin IS bad. 18:28:24 Java's pretty stable and un-flickery over here. 18:28:26 ehird_: there's more than one 18:28:32 the Sun plugin and the open source one are the two main ones 18:28:34 Here on Icedtea6. 18:28:41 those are implementations 18:28:44 dont call them "plugins" 18:28:52 icedtea sucks royal ass anyway 18:28:54 ehird_: the implementations come with plugins 18:28:56 ehird_: They also have different plugins. 18:29:01 ... Wha? 18:29:02 well yes 18:29:05 How the fuck does icedtea suck ass? 18:29:12 pikhq: last time i used icedtea it just didnt work with shit 18:29:24 the bottom of this laptop is hot enough to hurt when you touch it 18:29:32 What did you use? A pre-alpha SVN checkout? 18:29:33 methinks it has a decidedly suboptimal cooling system 18:29:34 what sort of laptop is that? 18:29:39 and why aren't you on your own computer? 18:29:45 ais523: an "ultraportable" from 2004 18:29:46 It works perfectly. 18:29:50 its not portable. :P 18:29:56 1.5kg or so 18:30:00 so regular 2009 laptop weight 18:30:08 Even though I don't have any Flash on my computer, I have used FLASM to modify a game in Flash for someone once. 18:30:21 ais523: and because our phone line is busted and i havent bothered trying to connect to this wireless network on my mac 18:30:30 (seriously, it is a 100% compliant Java implementation. ... Oh, yeah, and it's just a minor patch to the GPL Java dump that makes it work without proprietary junk) 18:30:30 so im just using the laptop i used to grab the WPA key 18:30:40 stealing wireless? 18:30:42 pikhq: mayhaps im thinking of another thing 18:30:42 or legit? 18:30:47 ais523: stealing wireless with permission 18:30:53 ehird_: Maybe you're thinking of GCJ. 18:31:03 ehird_: as in, they said you could use it but didn't tell you the key? 18:31:12 Which is a complete compiler, but doesn't have a complete runtime environment at all. 18:31:13 ais523: otherwise this would be a stolen laptop tooa 18:31:14 also 18:31:20 theyre computer illiterate. so they just gave me it to get stuff. 18:31:24 One day I will also invent Hypernet. 18:31:27 ehird_: ah 18:31:54 HyperNet packets can be sent over any protocol or medium, is encrypted, uses mirrors and backups of files, and nobody can stop it from happening. 18:32:37 this morning atrapado was claiming that he was going to break all the world's encryption schemes 18:32:39 zzo38: just use astralnet; to insert, take the crc32 and the sha512 of a packet; this is the key 18:32:40 to prove to people that they were insecure 18:32:57 to retrieve a packet, generate random strngs until then crc32 and sha512 match 18:33:05 theres actually a perl implementation :) 18:33:13 ais523: now i have to logread, BAH! 18:34:10 ais523: ... Impressive. 18:34:13 That "astralnet" seems not working well 18:34:44 zzo38: it works just fine; its just a bit slow 18:34:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?). 18:34:50 but you cannot, simply cannot, stop a packet from being sent 18:35:06 and the only likely failure - which is in itself extremely unlikely - is getting other data, probably garbage, back 18:35:17 ;) 18:35:26 It would seem very slow if the decryption worked like that. 18:36:43 zzo38: but reliable. 18:37:13 ehird_: I disagree 18:37:22 how many bits are there in a crc32 and sha512 hash together? 18:37:24 HyperNet will be designed to use infinite-dimentional integer coordinates in a virtual Euclidean space with an origin, and use an encryption key as part of the URL. Also any service can have as many addresses and/or files as they want. 18:37:33 you're bound to get loads of collisions even with relatively short packets 18:37:40 as in, not a lot in absolute terms 18:37:49 but you're likely to hit collisions before you hit what you actually want 18:37:53 both of which will take millenia 18:37:55 And also, you store encrypted copies of files you don't know what they are on many mirrors. 18:38:00 What if a transmission error occurred; you don't know which hash to trust 18:38:12 ais523: err, 512=512 bits 18:38:18 Deewiant: use a hash of the hashes 18:38:30 And, URL format will be invented. The other format that will be invented is a way of indicating HyperNet file descriptors in a gopher menu. 18:38:31 ais523: use like 128 byte packets. 18:39:00 For example, the host field could say @ and the port field gives the HyperNet descriptor for the file you want. 18:39:31 So there are two basic protocols on HyperNet, file protocol and command protocol. 18:40:02 ais523: I was thinking: add a third hash and find a string for which any two match; if the third doesn't, request a retransmission 18:40:17 For interactive sessions, you would set up a session key and method of communication over HyperNet ahead of time, and then use phone or internet or whatever to enter the interactive mode (like telnet, for example). 18:40:45 actually, because CRC-32 can be reversed really easily 18:40:52 all you'd need is to brute-force the SHA512 hash 18:41:05 How slow is that? 18:41:10 very 18:41:19 there's no known method better than just trying every string 18:41:26 so you'd need to try 2^512 strings on average 18:42:01 ais523: the idea is that since 512 is slow, you use crc32 18:42:06 and only 512 if that matches 18:42:10 so the crc is just an optimization 18:43:21 One security algorithm I invented (not sure how secure it is) is HEXARC, which is like ARCFOUR with the text running both reverse and forward, random amount of random garbage added on, and feedback in the coding. 18:43:45 The key is also longer. 18:44:15 How to test the strength of a crypto algorithm: 18:44:21 1. Did you write it -> its insecure 18:44:33 2. Did experienced cryptographers write it and is it generally considered secure -> it might be secure for now 18:44:35 fin 18:44:49 O. Really? Many pople wrote other algorithm, who is insecure? 18:45:03 0. If this is for DRM purposes, don't. 18:45:05 All of them, unless youre really good at cryptography. 18:45:07 10:05:01 Do you people(s) has opinion of patent? I think their should be no patent but you can disagree if you want to 18:45:12 abolish patents! Abolish copyright! 18:45:14 Are you sure? Sometimes it is found to be wrong that it isn't as secure as they thought it is 18:45:43 WRT the medicine argument - 18:45:43 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:45:46 This algorithm is not for DRM purposes. 18:45:46 youre all idiots. 18:45:51 see the pirate party websitefor a rebuttal 18:46:15 -!- RodgerTheGreat has joined. 18:47:09 10:14:56 ACMESTRESS: meh, then replace it with a dynamic language as expressive as python, but twice as fast as C 18:47:13 lisp on a good lisp machine 18:47:15 i can has patent 18:47:43 I agree with the second and third issues, and I partially agree with the first issue. There should be a better way to reform copyright. But I agree with abolished patent system and right to privacy. 18:47:55 ah, ehird is reading logs, get ready for extreme out-of-context-argumentation 18:47:59 I don't like the Python program language. 18:48:01 Oh nose 18:48:19 zzo38, thou art silly. 18:48:22 logreading over. 18:48:25 In fact, þou art ſilly. 18:48:45 i only argue with those who are wrong :) 18:49:11 zzo38: copyright doesnt need reform; whats the source of this belief that everything needs reforming and abolishment is never the right option 18:49:21 i wonder if people said "the prohibition needs reform, not abolishment!" 18:49:38 Also, the Pirate Party has good ideas but not enough to be a proper political party. 18:49:52 What prohibition? 18:50:18 -!- ehird_4 has joined. 18:50:18 I think comparing the ban of alcohol and the investment required to research new drugs is a really nice comparision :) 18:50:19 agh 18:50:21 what did i miss 18:50:26 zzo38: They're already a proper political party. 18:50:35 ehird_4: ehird_1, ehird_2, and ehird_3 turned up and left again 18:50:37 tetha: stfu and read the pirate partys rebuttal to that before spouting more nonsense 18:50:40 without much comment other than "hi" 18:50:44 O. Thanks for telling me. It just seemed to me that they couldn't be. 18:50:51 ais523: weird. what did zzo38 say about the pirate party 18:50:54 ehird_4: then give me a link, since, y'know, the pirates wiki aint small. 18:51:00 tetha: what 18:51:03 tetha: piratpartiet.se 18:51:08 ehird_4: Also, the Pirate Party has good ideas but not enough to be a proper political party. 18:51:33 ehird_4: k, so you can't bother enough to just give me a link to this precise article. appears that your argumentation is serious enough 18:51:35 tetha: http://www.piratpartiet.se/an_alternative_to_pharmaceutical_patents 18:51:40 tetha: im on an unusable laptop 18:51:44 so stop complaining 18:51:54 zzo38: pirate party are getting a seat in the european parliament 18:51:54 good that Im psycic 18:52:05 The term of copyright should be dependent on various things. Five years is too short, although the current terms are way too long. 18:52:18 tetha: good that you cant read what i said earlier 18:52:46 If we're going to have copyright apply to software, we need source escrow. 18:52:58 good that I think this channel is nothing for me due to some persons 18:52:58 Release the source code once it hits public domain. 18:53:10 -!- tetha has left (?). 18:53:21 ... Wha? 18:53:27 Also, file sharing and p2p over internet and stuff should remain as illegal as it is for copying of illegal stuff, however, the police and ISP and government and so on should not be allowed to care about such things, so you can do it as though it were legal if it is over the internet. 18:53:32 pikhq: tethas pissy that i existr 18:53:33 a 18:53:34 it seems 18:53:40 well fuck you too tetha :) 18:54:00 zzo38: what 18:54:07 "it should be illegal but no punishment or enforcement" 18:54:11 which means, uh 18:54:14 it should be legal. 18:54:19 Also, there should not be complete ban on DRM, but instead there should be forced to be warning labels about DRM on products (like food warning labels are), and also make it perfectly legal to remove DRM, complain, circumvent, tell other people how, and so on. 18:55:06 No, it doesn't mean it should be legal. What it means is that if you go to a store on a street corner or whatever that that is what they do even if no money or any other sort of payment, the police can still arrest them. 18:55:25 ... ummm, what 18:55:40 But if it is simply a generic service (like random HyperNet transfers over disk), the police can't do anything about it 18:57:18 hum dum 18:58:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:58:49 Non-commercial use should be freely available for private uses, even among other people who it is not a public service. How "private" that some things should be considered can be debated, but don't make it too restrictive or too non-restrictive, you need the right balance to make things considered privately. 18:59:40 And this would also mean, if you go to library to photocopy something, you are allowed to make as much photocopying as you want to as long as you pay the fee for each sheet of paper you make copies. 18:59:55 (That is, the library photocopying fee, not the copyright fee) 19:00:43 Also, books and files and stuff should include the author's addresses so that you can still choose to pay the author as much money as you want, regardless of how those things were being obtained. 19:01:01 (Of course that is not a law, it is just a suggestion that authors must follow) 19:01:14 -!- inurinternet has joined. 19:02:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:02:36 The "patent and trademark office" would become just the "trademark office". That's good things. 19:03:27 Also, things cannot change so immediately, there needs to be a transition period. 19:03:42 One year should be enough transition period. 19:05:01 Terrorists can take away my life, but they cannot take away my freedom. Only the government can take away your freedom. 19:05:42 zzo38 is like an opinion and anecdote machine 19:05:45 what if terrorists kidnap you rather than kill you? 19:05:45 add water! 19:06:03 ais523: he has the freedom to squirm around a bit and quote the constitution 19:06:05 :p 19:06:22 unless they gagged him. 19:06:23 then only the first ne 19:06:24 one 19:07:14 This political party is still probably just as incompetent as any other, even though they have good intentions. 19:07:48 piratpartiet is small enough and close enough to TPB that theyre competent 19:08:11 -!- ehird_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:08:39 * pikhq thinks zzo38 is ignorant of how the law is implemented... 19:08:39 O, OK. But if they are small enough they can't really become a proper political party without much difficulty. 19:09:07 zzo38: dude, they won a seat in the european parliament 19:09:15 thats a huge turnout 19:09:26 zzo38: and they have the 3rd biggest membership count in sweden 19:09:28 of all the parties 19:09:46 happened in like a month or two 19:10:07 wow, nopaste's shut down 19:10:13 Then they are an exception to the general rule of that, which is good. However one seat isn't everything (but it can be improved later, of rcourse). 19:11:02 One seat after 4 years. 19:11:06 That's phenomenal. 19:11:10 yes 19:11:11 ais523: YES! 19:11:19 now what will anmaster terrorize me with now 19:11:46 I am anti-anti-terrorist 19:11:59 k bye; zzo38: you oppose people who oppose terrorists 19:12:00 what 19:12:07 well im anti-anti-rapist! 19:12:13 -!- ehird_4 has quit ("Java user signed off"). 19:12:34 And people do not understand my pokemon philosophies, probably people will not understand my other thing that very well either. 19:15:02 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:22:18 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:25:20 -!- AnMaster has quit (Connection timed out). 19:40:01 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has joined. 19:40:58 * oerjan senses something dark and foul-smelling 19:41:15 mommy? 19:41:31 Is it me? 19:41:41 we have a winner! 19:41:49 a foul-smelling one, but nevertheless 19:42:02 \o/ 19:42:02 | 19:42:02 >\ 19:42:16 Alternative nick I accidentally got on furnet 19:42:41 accidentally? 19:42:59 They change your nick to some bullshit if you forget to identify 19:43:24 ah 19:43:46 !swedish GuestShadowSkunk 19:43:46 GooestShedooSkoonk 19:47:19 * oerjan deduces the actual swedish is GästSkuggoSkunk 19:47:31 i'm not entirely sure about the o 19:47:44 !swedish GooestShedooSkoonk 19:47:45 GuuestSheduuSkuunk 19:48:50 -!- evenant has joined. 19:48:50 -!- nescience has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:48:55 !swedish GuuestSheduuSkuunk 19:48:56 GooooestShedooooSkoooonk 19:49:02 !swedish GooooestShedooooSkoooonk 19:49:03 GuuuuestSheduuuuSkuuuunk 19:49:09 !swedish u 19:49:10 u 19:49:14 !swedish ue 19:49:15 ue-a 19:49:34 !swedish guest 19:49:34 gooest 19:49:37 !swedish uest 19:49:38 uest 19:49:43 !swedish gu 19:49:44 goo 19:49:47 !swedish goo 19:49:48 guu 19:49:51 !swedish guu 19:49:52 goooo 19:49:55 !swedish uu 19:49:56 uoo 19:49:56 !swedish goest 19:49:57 guest 19:50:37 !swedish oooooooooooooooooooooo 19:50:38 ouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 19:50:43 !swedish _o 19:50:44 _oo 19:50:50 !swedish o 19:50:51 o 19:50:55 :P 19:50:56 !swedish _u 19:50:57 _u 19:51:02 lament is learning Swedish. 19:51:06 !swedish _o_ 19:51:06 | 19:51:06 /`\ 19:51:06 _oo_ 19:51:12 haha 19:51:16 !swedish _u_ 19:51:17 _u_ 19:51:20 Vad konstigt 19:52:41 !swedish \oo/ 19:52:42 \oo/ 19:52:48 !swedish \uu/ 19:52:49 \uu/ 19:52:53 !swedish \o/ 19:52:54 | 19:52:54 >\ 19:52:54 \o/ 19:52:54 | 19:52:55 /| 19:53:04 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has changed nick to Slereah_. 19:53:18 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:53:49 !swedish a 19:53:49 a 19:53:51 !swedish aa 19:53:52 ea 19:53:54 !swedish aaa 19:53:55 eea 19:53:56 !swedish aaaa 19:53:57 eeea 19:54:01 !swedish aa aa 19:54:02 ea ea 19:54:04 !swedish ea 19:54:05 ea 19:54:07 !swedish aa _a 19:54:08 ea _a 19:54:17 !swedish a_ 19:54:18 a_ 19:56:23 !swedish !swedish 19:56:24 !svedeesh 19:56:33 !swedish !sveedeesh 19:56:33 !sfeedeesh 19:56:55 !swedish swenska 19:56:56 svenska 20:00:39 -!- evenant has changed nick to nescience. 20:03:24 -!- tombom has joined. 20:15:18 !swedish xxx 20:15:21 xxx 20:15:24 Hot 20:16:14 !swedish girls are hot 20:16:15 gurls ere-a hut 20:20:10 Gurls are a hut??? 20:20:12 :P 20:20:41 !swedish butt 20:20:43 boott 20:21:57 that's totally how we say butt in swedish 20:22:55 !swedish that's totally how we say butt in swedish 20:22:56 thet's tutelly hoo ve-a sey boott in svedeesh 20:29:43 !swedish Swedish Fish 20:29:44 Svedeesh Feesh 20:30:19 !swedise Come and see the møøse! 20:30:59 Titta på älgen! 20:32:04 Hah. 20:32:32 -!- sebbu has quit (hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 20:34:49 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:38:36 -!- RodgerTheGreat_ has joined. 20:38:36 -!- RodgerTheGreat has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:40:07 -!- nescience has quit. 20:56:15 Hello! 20:56:39 Jello! 20:56:59 * ehird is connected via said neighbour's wifi, but on a decent mac now. 20:57:03 * oerjan recalls there are apples 20:57:21 It is, uh, not the fastest connection. 20:57:43 ...actually, it seems to be quite fast. 20:57:45 -!- saburo has joined. 20:58:04 *crunch* 20:58:06 come see the møøse?! :o 20:58:08 ehird. 20:58:13 1.2 megabytes/sec (= 9.6 megabits) 20:58:14 not bad 20:58:15 !swedish moose 20:58:16 muuse-a 20:58:17 augur: hai 20:58:19 it is not points-free programming 20:58:23 just saying. 20:58:26 there are møøse in the høøse! 20:58:36 hello, and: indeed! 20:58:39 a moose loose aboot this hoose 20:58:39 børk børk? 20:58:45 oh no 20:58:50 ehirds turnd canadian D: 20:58:53 ... 20:58:54 scottish. 20:58:58 how did they get løøse? 20:59:01 augur: it's composing just minimal programs together 20:59:03 so yes it is point-free programming 20:59:25 no. pointsfree composes functions without reference to their arguments 20:59:40 but the functions are not complete programs 21:00:03 then it's shell programming :) 21:00:06 for instance, points free "avg" in J is +/ % # 21:00:06 augur: define complete prorgam 21:00:08 program 21:00:13 function = program 21:00:15 which is not a complete program, nor is its parts 21:00:17 a program in unix is just: 21:00:23 [String] -> (String,Int,etc) 21:00:32 what i mean is that i could take each thing that i compose, run it, and it would perform some full computation. 21:00:39 saying "program" in the fully-fledged executable sense is not a particularly interesting extension 21:00:54 perhaps 21:01:08 but i do not mean to compose functions without arguments 21:01:24 i mean to compose fully specified bits of code in some fashion 21:01:31 * oerjan generalizes augur's idea 21:01:38 ey? 21:01:38 compose entire computers! 21:01:43 btw can I just say that +/ % # is one of the most beautiful pieces of code? 21:01:44 hmm... 21:01:54 ehird: yes, you can. 21:02:00 good; because it is 21:02:01 its rather sexy. 21:02:12 it's +/%# unreadable though 21:02:24 tho J's use of that is, i think, rather limited. 21:02:28 oerjan: composing computers, hm. 21:02:30 does the that belong with the code? 21:02:34 composing turing machines 21:03:00 turing machines are less complicated than programs, not more 21:03:04 augur: J does both point-free and also forks where ((v1 v2 v3) x) = ((v1 x) v2 (v3 x)) 21:03:10 which is a fairly complete tacit programming toolset 21:03:12 they are just String -> Maybe String, really 21:03:12 oerjan: true. 21:03:30 hm forget the Maybe 21:03:32 21:02 oerjan: it's +/%# unreadable though ← i know this was a joke, but it's really not :) 21:03:35 thinking of non-termination 21:03:48 it's just vocabulary 21:03:48 ehird: i know, ehird. but forks are so trivial 21:03:56 i mean, english has forks. 21:04:04 + is add, / modifies the previous verb to fold, % divides and # is length 21:04:17 "addition fold divided by length" 21:04:23 addition fold = sum 21:04:24 spooning your program, now 21:04:26 "sum divided by length" 21:04:26 ehird, actually isnt +/ a predefined function, not an on-the-fly modify? 21:04:28 which is mean 21:04:29 augur: nope 21:04:32 augur: / is an adverb 21:04:34 augur: (anything)/ works 21:04:36 interesting. 21:04:52 for instance: 21:04:58 -!- AnMaster has joined. 21:05:03 J would be sexy with some hardcore language-y aspects. 21:05:11 hmm forget that example 21:05:15 augur: it does have those, though! 21:05:17 it's just very subtle 21:05:26 it seems trivial at first, but generally you just get a gloss 21:05:31 its actual concepts are very deep and simple 21:05:40 i know, i understand which ones it does have 21:05:49 but those are trivial compared to what real languages do 21:05:55 i suppose 21:06:03 augur: minimalist extensibility trumps all in the end, though 21:06:10 well sure 21:06:13 take a look at CCG 21:06:25 it uses a very minimal extension on top of lambda calculus 21:06:28 -!- saburo has quit. 21:06:34 define CCG 21:06:37 adding a layer of syntactic function application 21:06:42 (combinatory categorial grammar) 21:06:58 hrms 21:07:12 augur: i've always considered linguistics akin to making a formal semantics out of PHP :) 21:07:17 the result of this is that in CCG, theres like a bajillion crazy but simply-computed ways of saying something 21:07:22 i know that's a prejudiced view 21:07:25 but it's just my intuitive feeling 21:07:26 oh no ehird 21:07:36 youve never seen syntax 21:07:40 its beautiful. 21:07:48 i'm not sure english's is :P 21:07:55 you'd be surprised 21:08:10 english, for all its hodge podge ness, is incredibly formulaic. 21:08:30 augur: modulo a few billion special cases 21:08:37 not syntactically 21:08:41 well, true 21:08:44 special cases are almost entirely the domain of morphology 21:08:49 is linguistics just syntax or sth? 21:09:00 no, syntax is a field of linguistics 21:09:11 but its /my/ domain so its all i care about ;) 21:09:25 also 21:09:33 special cases are sort of like pattern matching 21:09:44 suppose we were viewing this from a parsing perspective 21:09:49 you might have some general rule like 21:09:57 N + z = plural 21:10:15 but you might have some special case like N[+saxon] + en = plural 21:10:33 ok, so what? thats just like a haskell case analysis: 21:10:47 N[+saxon] + en = plural 21:10:47 N[_] + z = plural 21:10:59 augur: yeah, but too many pattern matches are considered inelegant in haskell too 21:11:03 true 21:11:23 and in linguistics. 21:11:41 we try to unify as many phenomena as possible, when they seem like they can be unified. 21:12:15 unfortunately, brains are powerful, and not everything is a unified phenomena 21:12:24 -!- GregorR-L_ has joined. 21:13:15 i can teach you some syntax if you want. 21:13:55 -!- nescience has joined. 21:14:08 not atm 21:14:17 well no i dont mean right now 21:14:20 but whenever. 21:15:26 :p 21:17:19 I'm actually writing a series of blog posts on the history of syntactic theory, if you want to read it. its probably more for linguists than non-linguistics but you're smart so whoknows 21:17:48 you've only mentioned that and linked it to me 7 times now ;) 21:17:50 *:) 21:17:52 wanna do it again?????? 21:17:52 :P 21:18:02 O SHURE 21:25:38 hi 21:26:33 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:32:52 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L. 21:38:27 digg is advertising on reddit's job board 21:38:28 lolwut 21:40:26 *blink* 21:40:42 ehird, some generic advert thing? Like google ads or similar? 21:40:47 nope 21:40:50 they posted a job ad :) 21:41:04 fake? 21:41:10 no... 21:42:01 ehird, how can you be sure? 21:42:08 because i'm not an idiot 21:42:11 (mhm 21:42:15 link to this ad? 21:42:15 http://www.redditjobs.com/Jobs/Account-Executive-acb537a627cc48b88ca7ab157d6f7692.aspx 21:43:32 ehird, do reddit check that they aren't fake? I guess so 21:43:44 AnMaster: it fucking costs to post an ad 21:43:51 what the hell does a fake job ad get you 21:43:52 nothing 21:43:54 ehird, how much? 21:44:00 ehird, "lulz"? 21:44:00 AnMaster: $300 for 30 days. 21:44:03 ah ok 21:44:06 not for that much 21:44:16 also, there's no lulz to be had over a fake job, vs, say, a troll craigslist posting 21:44:18 if it would have been like $10 I could have believed that 21:44:35 ehird, lets wait for slashdot posting there too! 21:44:37 AnMaster: i'm not sure their mothers would agree to let them use their credit cards for that ;-) 21:44:55 (re 21:44 AnMaster: if it would have been like $10 I could have believed that ) 21:44:58 Trolls trolling trolls 21:45:07 trollsing trolling trollsies 21:45:14 ehird, sadly I suspect some grown up would do it. Or I guess they could have stolen the card. 21:45:26 (from their mother) 21:45:43 idiots exist. It's a fact. Sadly. 21:45:54 AnMaster: you seriously think someone over 18 would pay $10 for the amazing hilarity of... posting a job ad that in all ways resembles a real one without any thing that could make it funny? 21:45:59 it may be your defective sense of humour speaking here 21:46:08 !swedish Trolls trolling trolls 21:46:09 Trulls trulleeng trulls 21:46:53 !swedish toll 21:46:54 tull 21:46:56 it's troll in Swedish too actually 21:46:57 http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/get-the-facts/browser-comparison.aspx 21:46:58 haha 21:47:01 perfect translation 21:47:02 Internet Explorer: Better because we said so. 21:47:04 oerjan, you knew that one would work 21:47:06 hehe 21:47:07 :D 21:47:26 their argument against firefox being extensible is as follows: 21:47:33 "You don't need to extend IE because we already have features." 21:47:36 oerjan, actually... Only for some meanings of toll iirc 21:47:40 HURF DURF 21:47:58 LAAAAAAAAAAAAAWL 21:48:02 hm 21:48:05 I love the extreme vagueness of the categories. 21:48:16 Firefox doesn't have "security"! Oh nose! 21:48:26 ehird, what so you call the guys that check your passport and such when you cross a border. 21:48:31 check luggage too sometimes. 21:48:35 AnMaster: Anal-retentitive? 21:48:40 *badum, tish!* 21:48:41 customs inspectors 21:48:41 ehird, I mean, the English word 21:48:41 To be fair, IE8 is the best IE yet. 21:48:46 What ais523 said. 21:48:50 ... It finally caught up to the Mozilla Suite! 21:49:02 pikhq: That's going a bit too far! 21:49:08 (1.0) 21:49:38 pikhq: It's the best IE in much the same way that this shit is the best I've had all night now that the diarrhea is fading :-P 21:49:44 ah yes, Swedish tull and English toll only partially overlap in meanings. tull in Swedish can also refer to the customs 21:49:45 And yes, that is an incredibly strained analogy. 21:49:45 "Neither Firefox nor Chrome provide guidance or enterprise tools." 21:49:52 (as in where the custom inspectors work) 21:50:00 a) if that was true, it would be an advantage for Firefox and Chrome IMO; b) ever heard of FrontMotion? 21:50:01 but it can't refer to a toll bridge I think 21:50:06 ais523: i love how they think chrome is an actual worthy competitor :) 21:50:11 BECAUSE EVERYONE USES CHROME 21:50:14 the worrying thing is, it is 21:50:24 ais523: not as far as market share, no way 21:50:28 would be "avgiftsbelagd bro" or something like that 21:50:30 the suspicion's that Google are trying to persuade OEMs to ship Chrome as default browser 21:50:37 maybe Microsoft are trying to persuade them the other way 21:50:39 AnMaster: actually the translation was from norwegian, not english ;D 21:50:58 at least when i thought of it 21:51:06 oerjan, ah 21:51:07 Self Reference$: _ _ _ 21:51:07 $: denotes the longest verb that contains it. 21:51:08 right 21:51:10 wackiest recursion method evar 21:51:15 besides, Chrome had the fastest market-share gain rate ever for a web browser, IIRC 21:51:35 ais523, not odd. Linked from google's main web page a lot. 21:51:37 iirc 21:51:39 ais523: yes, but that was just hype. 21:51:42 haven't seen it there for a while 21:51:53 ais523: really, chrome isn't going anywhere atm 21:52:02 ais523: i'd bet safari for windows probably has it beat 21:52:07 Research proves that Internet Explorer 8 catches almost twice as much malware than the competition. That's "less secure?" 21:52:19 but Safari for Windows is terrible 21:52:28 I thought it was only installed due to deceptiveness in the iTunes installer 21:52:33 ais523: no 21:52:45 ais523: that was stupid, but much more minor than made out to be 21:52:48 Safari for Windows is a test for Cocoa on Win32. 21:52:50 ais523: it's actually quite popular, despite being terrible 21:52:56 pikhq: fission mailed 21:53:00 I just don't get why it would be 21:53:03 i mean, come on guys. RESPECT THE PLATFORM! 21:53:08 ais523: /shrug. It just is. 21:53:22 safari on windows just makes my eyes sore 21:53:29 ooh, IE does have addons: http://ieaddons.com/en/ 21:53:30 ais523, do you think they will make public the research in question on request? 21:53:32 I wonder if it has any useful ones 21:53:33 ais523: old 21:53:37 ;P 21:53:45 I suspect it is just pure faked 21:53:48 ais523: there used to be tons of underground ones 21:53:53 AnMaster: no, it's unlikely to be faked 21:53:55 adblock No items match your search. 21:54:00 ehird, oh? what then? 21:54:04 AnMaster: just biased. 21:54:08 see: windows passing POSIX 21:54:12 presumably they're blocking them, then 21:54:21 ehird, ah probably 21:54:21 AnMaster: also, "blocking malware" is vague 21:54:22 as more or less all browsers in existence have some form of adblock nowadays 21:54:30 firefox doesn't do that out of the box, as far as I know 21:54:32 ehird: "catching malware" is even funnier 21:54:45 21:54 ais523: as more or less all browsers in existence have some form of adblock nowadays ← krrr! broken statistic 21:54:48 firefox and opera do. 21:54:53 and Konqueror 21:54:55 chrome doesn't. safari does, but only on mac afaik 21:54:56 ehird: Windows passes POSIX when it has the POSIX subsystem installed, to be specific. 21:54:59 ehird, it does warn you for some black listed domains, some list fetched from google or such iirc 21:54:59 ais523: ok, and konqueror 21:55:03 that's a tiny amount 21:55:05 I'm basing it on ones I know about 21:55:11 ... And to be fair, the POSIX subsystem in question is in fact a mildly quirky UNIX. 21:55:15 ehird, with a well hidden "go there anyway" button 21:55:18 AnMaster: and you disabled that in case people see things like sourceforge.net, right? :D 21:55:19 also, lynx does by not being able to render them 21:55:29 they could be spying on your illicit open source downloads 21:55:31 ehird, err? 21:55:43 AnMaster: the list, IIRC, involves sending your every request domain to google 21:55:46 ehird, it downloads a list from google 21:55:47 for some reason 21:55:49 they may have changed that 21:55:50 actually, I thought the firefox list fetched from Google had been discontinued 21:55:54 stores it in urlclassifier3.sqlite 21:55:57 I know that it used to be opt-in 21:55:59 ais523, oh? really? 21:55:59 with an option on install 21:56:08 I know, because two years ago 21:56:08 AnMaster: it definitely used to send your every request. I think. 21:56:19 the way the computers were configured, they installed Firefox every time you used it 21:56:20 ehird, used to yes. But doesn't any more 21:56:22 safari does that malware thing 21:56:28 it's incredibly irritating as the site is never malicious 21:56:32 i should turn it off 21:56:38 ais523, it definitely updated more recently than 2 years ago 21:56:46 err wait, I misread that I think 21:56:51 you did 21:57:18 someone give me something to code in J, i'm bored. 21:57:52 ehird: insertion sort 21:57:56 ehird, a replacement for firefox that isn't using more than 50 MB RAM to view even the most bloated pages, up to 50 tabs 21:58:19 ais523: something that doesn't involve rewriting one of the primitives in a bad fashion, preferably 21:58:25 -!- ACMESTRESS has quit ("Nobody likes a quitter!"). 21:58:31 AnMaster: would you like a halting checker while you're at it? 21:58:44 ehird: well, I think it's interesting to see how various sorting algos are implemented 21:58:48 AnMaster: btw i'm pretty sure you could get opera to use 50MB of ram with <50 tabs as long as the pages aren't ridiculous 21:58:52 but I just realised that that doesn't fit J very well 21:58:57 ais523: insertion sort is quite procedural 21:58:58 so yeah 21:59:02 ehird, nah, that is impossible. While what I suggested is merely incredibly hard and time consuming 21:59:17 you can definitely do it I think, but recomputing instead of caching in memory 21:59:18 AnMaster: no it's not 21:59:26 ehird: I think w3m can manage what you request 21:59:29 AnMaster: "the most bloated pages" necessarily take >50MB 21:59:36 I'm not sure if it can manage 50 tabs, but I've definitely done 3 before now 21:59:36 ais523: I don't request anything, sir 21:59:39 ehird, most bloated *current* ones 21:59:49 AnMaster: ok mr vague man 21:59:52 oh, sorry, AnMaster's request 22:00:05 AnMaster: anyway just go buy some ram 22:00:06 :p 22:00:15 ehird: what about a Cyclexa parser? 22:00:28 ehird, who would insertion sort be hard 22:00:35 what about quick sort then 22:00:37 ais523: J isn't too hot with strings. I'm kind of looking for something quite simple and mathematical. Involving arrays, since that's what J does. 22:00:40 AnMaster: I didn't say it'd be hard. 22:00:48 It's just not J's explicit forte. 22:00:56 ehird, what is J good at then 22:01:04 AnMaster: Arrays, matrices and mathematics. 22:01:05 arrays iirc? So sorting an array? 22:01:10 Yes. It has a sort primitive. 22:01:14 AnMaster: FYI: 22:01:14 quicksort=: (($:@(<#[) , (=#[) , $:@(>#[)) ({~ ?@#)) ^: (1<#) 22:01:18 From the manual 22:01:43 ehird: what about a random array shuffle? 22:01:48 LU-decomposition 22:01:50 or is that a primitive too? 22:01:55 ais523: that's not mathematical 22:01:59 yes, you can do it easily 22:02:03 but it involves using foreigns 22:02:10 ehird, any language using unbalanced brackets, square brackets, or similar. AND WHICH ISN'T AN ESOLANG, is seriously messed up 22:02:12 IMO 22:02:23 AnMaster: what about unbalanced angle brackets? 22:02:23 wait, is J an esolang? 22:02:31 No, it's not. 22:02:37 AnMaster: A language using square brackets is messed up? 22:02:39 AnMaster: that's nice. your petty concerns about what syntax you think should, familiarly, match up, are seen, considered, and disregarded for being fucking stupid 22:02:42 Or j ust unbalanced ones. 22:02:42 ? 22:02:55 pikhq, the way J does it certainly is 22:03:05 but show me some one that isn't 22:03:09 OMG!! IT USES CHARACTERS I'M NOT USED TO AS NAMES!! 22:03:13 CALL THE POLICE!!!!!!!!!! 22:03:19 ehird: Shaddup and do LU decomposition 22:03:19 ais523: I was looking more for things like "implement CA 101" 22:03:19 ais523, you mean <>? well since they can read as "greater than" or "less than"... 22:03:25 ais523, it may be debatable 22:03:27 set foo [bar] 22:03:31 ehird: in that case, do cyclic tag 22:03:35 AnMaster: Hey, you know what? 22:03:40 AnMaster: Mathematics is "seriously messed up". 22:03:43 [a,b) OH GOD 22:03:48 ehird, yes I agree 22:03:52 I know about that construct 22:03:57 (la la la, la, reductio ad-fucking-absurdum, la la la la...) 22:04:02 and I always thought it looked messed up typographically 22:04:02 ais523: Mayhaps 22:04:04 -!- jix_ has quit ("leaving"). 22:04:08 I think I mentioned it before in this channel 22:04:12 check logs for 2006-2009 22:04:15 somewhere in there 22:04:15 -!- jix has joined. 22:04:18 ehird, ^ 22:04:24 no thx 22:04:30 AnMaster: you came here 2007, why would you talk in 2006 22:04:30 so I fail to see "reductio ad-fucking-absurdum" here 22:04:40 ais523: which? 22:04:43 BCT? 22:04:50 ehird, sure it wasn't late 2006? 22:04:55 I may be wrong though 22:04:57 It was 2007. 22:04:58 ehird: BCT is one notation for it 22:05:05 if so, from 2007 to 2009 22:05:06 I'm not picky about notation, but BCT would do fine 22:05:09 AnMaster: if you claim J sucks because of that, you must also claim mathematics does too 22:05:15 and if you seriously claim that, you're deluded 22:05:19 ehird, I didn't say J sucked 22:05:31 I said *it's syntax* in that specific example did 22:05:33 ais523: i've always misunderstood how the cycling works 22:05:38 I said it is syntax 22:05:39 unbalanced [] () {} look so messy 22:05:54 ehird, err no. " AnMaster: if you claim J sucks because of that, you must also claim mathematics does too" 22:06:00 word syntax isn't in that line 22:06:03 "*it's syntax". 22:06:04 sorry :P 22:06:08 —You. 22:06:21 Actually, he said any non-esoteric language using syntax like that "is seriously messed up" 22:06:24 ehird: basically, imagine the program repeated an infinite number of times 22:06:25 its then 22:06:30 and parse and run that 22:06:32 Deewiant, yes I did 22:06:37 ais523: isn't the data cyclic? 22:06:40 Deewiant, messed up syntax wise to be specific 22:06:44 ais523: but OK; that's easy enough 22:06:50 ais523: just store the original program 22:07:01 yes, that's how everyone does it 22:07:02 ais523: unfortunately, implementing BCT involves explicit loops as far as I can tell 22:07:04 so meh 22:07:05 and the data's a queue 22:07:06 Deewiant, or someone is doing IOCCC or similar, which is an abuse of the language, but allowed in such a context 22:07:07 AnMaster: Well, being messed up and having messed-up syntax sound somewhat different to me. 22:07:26 also, I like J's whole loopless concept 22:07:37 but it's not going to work for certain types of problems 22:07:41 Deewiant, the syntax is usually (insert disclaimer about lisp and some other langs) pretty major part of most languages 22:07:48 same in Mathematica, it's meant to be rare to loop there 22:07:53 but normally you have to do anyway 22:08:12 AnMaster: I suppose so, yeah. 22:08:13 ais523: no, J's provably TC even without using its loop constructs 22:08:17 ais523, does J have anything like map? fold? 22:08:24 AnMaster: almost certainly 22:08:31 infinite arrays? 22:08:37 AnMaster: map/fold is the whole damn basis of j,. 22:08:37 infinite lists* 22:08:40 and no. 22:08:40 ehird: agreed, but you'd end up implementing loops using the other primitives 22:08:41 ehird, right 22:08:46 hm 22:09:31 ehird, how would you implement a REPL in J. That would require some sort of main loop, wouldn't it? 22:09:53 AnMaster: ... 22:10:03 this could be a REPL for some other lang, so answer like "use the one built-in in J" isn't valid 22:10:09 (if J has a REPL, I don't know) 22:10:13 Look it up on Wikipedia, I don't feel like attempting to bash you out of the idiotic imperative paradigm. 22:10:22 It would be akin to bashing my brains out. (on a wall.) 22:10:26 ehird, um, functional too? 22:10:36 AnMaster: Erlang is not purely functional, no. 22:10:40 why would you want a REPL? 22:10:43 ehird, true it isn't 22:10:47 And I've seen your Erlang code. It is very much not functional. 22:10:49 * GregorR-L huggles Haskell. 22:10:50 ehird, but I was thinking about scheme in fact 22:10:52 REPLs are for losers. 22:10:52 You write C, in Erlang. 22:11:07 ehird, I don't. I did in the beginning yes. 22:11:22 takes time to get into the paradigm of a language. 22:11:23 AnMaster: why do you pastebin only your really old code then? 22:11:24 Strang. 22:11:25 Strange. 22:11:29 ehird, hm? 22:11:43 I don't remember when I last pastebinned erlang code here. Must have been quite a while ago 22:11:47 several weeks at least 22:12:04 Erlang's strange in that the syntax is almost identical to Prolog, but the semantics rather different 22:13:57 -!- tombom_ has joined. 22:15:29 Durm und Strang 22:16:01 \o/ 22:16:01 | 22:16:01 |\ 22:16:16 oerjan, what about it 22:16:24 and didn't you intentionally typo that 22:16:45 ehird, plus erlang is process oriented. I admit my code probably is too single-threaded still. But I'm working on changing that too. Mostly in the ATHR branch of efunge. In in-between I haven't so far found places that would gain from multiple processes yet. A bit hard to profile the effect of that with just a single single-core CPU. 22:16:45 _o_ < bu-n 22:16:46 | 22:16:46 >\ 22:16:53 AnMaster: was a pun, duh 22:17:01 oerjan, not sure what "strang" would be there 22:17:10 /o/ 22:17:11 22:17:11 | 22:17:12 >\ 22:17:21 AnMaster: that's because you have only 3 lines of context 22:17:22 they all fail to line up here btw. 22:17:29 .o> 22:17:39 /o> 22:17:39 | 22:17:39 >\ 22:18:12 oerjan, oh that above. I parsed the correction and discarded the original once done. Didn't see any reason to care more about it. Forgot it already by the time you made that pun. 22:18:54 22:18:54 | 22:18:55 /< 22:18:56 Garbage Collection (of the brain) Considered Harmful 22:19:03 Deewiant: you were leaving your tags unclosed 22:19:22 oerjan, hah. Usually works just fine. 22:19:23 I thought was self-closing like
22:19:23 | 22:19:24 /| 22:19:32 Deewiant:
isn't self-closing, get with XHTML 22:19:35 Hmm, is the leg position just random? 22:19:41 GregorR-L: I'm all SGML here 22:19:46 SGML SUCKS 22:19:46 GregorR-L, :) 22:19:50 :P 22:20:08 SGML sucks unless you support shorttags too 22:20:09 22:20:11 ooh: this year's ICFP is June 26-29 22:20:11 22:20:18 22:19 GregorR-L: Deewiant:
isn't self-closing, get with XHTML 22:19 GregorR-L: SGML SUCKS 22:20:21 HTML 5 bitches 22:20:24 22:20:24 | 22:20:24 >\ 22:20:33 starting at 13:00:16 CDT for some unknown reason 22:20:40 ehird, is the HTML5 standard finished yet? 22:20:49 22:20:49 | 22:20:49 /| 22:20:59 AnMaster: Is it final? No. Is there a large portion that won't be changing? Yes. 22:21:11 ehird, I'll wait for the final standard then 22:21:13 any ETA? 22:21:13 is there good browser interoperability for a sizable subset of this portion? Yep. 22:21:29 AnMaster: The standard will be utterly immutable come 2012. 22:21:32 Or somethng. 22:21:37 Anyone who waits until then to use it is an idiot. 22:21:52 | 22:21:52 >\ 22:22:11 oerjan: You're the only person those show up for properly on XChat :P 22:22:20 ___o___ 22:22:20 | 22:22:20 |\ 22:22:25 ehird, right 22:22:27 ooh, and Rakudo now implements 68% of the Perl6 spec, according to its tests 22:22:30 <___o___> 22:22:30 | 22:22:30 >\ 22:22:34 oh nick length 22:22:36 butt___o___butt 22:22:36 | 22:22:36 /'\ 22:22:43 ... 22:22:45 Butt, butt and penis. 22:22:47 Amazing. 22:22:49 that is so misaligned 22:22:54 )__o___( 22:22:54 | 22:22:54 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 22:22:54 /'\ 22:23:00 so is that 22:23:03 AnMaster: get a non-xchat client 22:23:08 who here would do a shot of bactine for $50 22:23:18 C===8_o_8===D 22:23:18 | 22:23:18 |\ 22:23:27 CESSMASTER: lol wat 22:23:43 ehird: wouldy you? 22:24:01 err. probably not, no. 22:24:06 =o= 22:24:07 $100? 22:24:10 bah 22:24:12 no. 22:24:19 -o- 22:24:19 | 22:24:19 /< 22:24:42 ehird: how much? 22:24:44 ehird, I don't use xchat, but I still like that style 22:24:48 which is why I use it in every client 22:24:51 much easier to read 22:24:52 CESSMASTER: $sideways 8, perhaps. 22:25:04 CESSMASTER: why; are you offering? 22:25:15 no i was just curious if anybody would do a shot of bactine for $50 22:26:37 Is bactine something I'd know about if I was from the UK? :P 22:26:38 it says "topical", that means it's supposed to be outside the skin, right? or maybe just local... 22:26:52 Topical means applied to the skin, yes. 22:27:09 Unlike tropical, which means applied to sunburns. Hyuk hyuk. 22:27:36 In medicine, a topical medication is applied to body surfaces such as the skin or mucous membranes, for example the vagina, anus, throat, eyes and ears. // thank you wikipedia for describing this in the creepiest way possible. 22:28:15 yeah, i googled bactine and it appears to like, be put on cuts 22:28:25 I assume it fucks you up if you inject it... 22:28:32 -!- tombom_ has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:29:38 .13% benzoalkonium chloride, 2.5% lidocaine hydrochloride 22:29:51 99% heroin 22:30:14 GregorR-L: Eyes? Owww... 22:30:35 i love how it starts with vagina and anus 22:30:37 GOT SOMETHING ON YOUR MIND HUH 22:31:25 In medicine, lubricant is applied to body surfaces such as the skin or mucous membranes, for example the vagina, anus, throat, eyes and ears. // thank you wikipedia for describing this in the creepiest way possible. 22:31:33 Whoops, didn't need to copy my comment :P 22:31:41 -!- tombom has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:32:38 someone already did the copying it seems 22:32:50 22:31 GregorR-L: Whoops, didn't need to copy my comment :P // thank you GregorR-L for describing this in the creepiest way possible. 22:33:44 they forgot noses *sniffle* 22:33:45 The original goes from "most creepy" to "least creepy", whereas mine goes from "least creepy" to "most creepy" :P 22:34:04 um they are exactly the same order 22:34:18 Note the different choice of words at the BEGINNING of the sentence ;) 22:34:33 ah 22:34:36 oh, ha 22:34:46 lube up my ears 22:35:09 "Once you go black, you go deaf." - Family Guy 22:35:32 once you go deaf, you never go black 22:35:35 *POOF* 22:35:37 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 22:35:44 AAAAAAAAAA 22:36:12 darn he escaped 22:36:15 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:36:25 oh no, another one! 22:36:56 http://www.chick.com/reading/comics/0117/0117_allinone.asp 22:37:00 yesssssssssssss 22:39:13 i love how chick tracts start out reasonable 22:39:19 and then the reasonable characters all go to hell 22:39:36 Ah, Jack Chick. 22:39:42 If I didn't know better, I'd say it was parody. 22:39:45 Or satire. 22:41:37 i got handed a jack chick tract today 22:41:42 on the boston common 22:41:48 outside an "old school revival" tent 22:42:37 Nice. 22:42:44 ... You're in Boston? 22:42:57 Should've hunted you down when I was there last summer. 22:44:21 ... but CESSMASTER only arrived hear like a few days ago. 22:44:22 Didn't he? 22:44:34 *here 22:44:36 ehird, about a week soon I think? 22:44:41 but yeah, very recently 22:45:05 Oh, right. 22:45:14 He's *not* someone who has randomly changed nicks. 22:45:19 :D 22:45:23 OR IS HE 22:45:31 * pikhq shakes a fist 22:45:32 both are true 22:45:41 i did come here only recently 22:45:46 but i do like to change nicks for the hell of it 22:46:09 But man, that Chick Tract 22:46:09 How very well it manages to fuck with history. 22:46:57 Oh, and Biblical text -- but most wackjobs of the Christian sort manage to do that pretty stunningly. 22:47:17 hm "chick tract" seems to be some right wing fundamentalist comic if I understood it right from glancing at the link and checking wikipedia? 22:47:31 Oh, AnMaster. Perpetually clueless, perpetually without context. 22:47:44 When will my senses be numbed to your every word; let it be soon. 22:48:10 ehird, as in Christian fundamentalist... 22:48:17 ...what? 22:48:25 ehird, ? 22:48:42 AnMaster: Right wing Christian fundamentalist. There's more fundamentalists than just Christians. 22:48:51 pikhq, yes there are 22:49:02 hello all… гniversity is evil… :\\\ 22:49:05 And they're all about as sensible. 22:49:05 pikhq, that is why I clarified I didn't mean muslim fundamentalist for example 22:49:08 rniversity! 22:49:09 pikhq, yeah 22:49:20 ehird, err no 22:49:23 that wasn't r 22:49:26 it was different 22:49:26 I know. 22:49:28 But it looked like r. 22:49:37 what on earth is "г"? 22:49:43 unicode line art? 22:49:49 some other script? 22:49:52 -!- augur has joined. 22:49:58 it looks kinda like a capital gamma 22:50:00 but it's probably not 22:50:19 "cyrillic small letter ghe" 22:50:24 so close, huh? 22:50:28 upyr presumably speaks that language 22:50:35 so his keyboard lets him type it easily 22:50:36 thus, typos 22:50:38 pupyr 22:50:41 sorry. 22:50:46 sorry for what? :) 22:51:11 for ghe :) 22:51:14 * pikhq can't read more of that track; so bad. 22:51:30 i love how it combines all of the bible belt fears 22:51:36 pikhq, you are a cd drive? 22:51:40 communists, catholics, muslims 22:51:41 22:51:45 s/track/tract/ 22:52:18 Roman Catholic conspiracy... *Right*. 22:53:01 Why is it that these people manage to look less reasonable than an organisation thnat is known for denying a heliocentric model of the solar system? 22:54:06 goddamnitmynetisslow 22:54:11 being a stealth loony is hard 22:54:30 oerjan, latency is low though 22:54:37 even if bw is low too 22:55:00 j is so fun 22:55:18 it's just wacky enough 22:56:18 AnMaster: it's between the house and the world, the ping only reaches nvg which is outside 22:56:41 oerjan: Your packets take less time than mine. 22:56:47 Mine go to space and back. 22:56:49 So, shaddup. 22:57:14 pikhq: Do you want to mention your satellite internet once more? 22:57:29 ehird: SATELLITE BEATS DIALUP LAWLZ 22:58:38 AnMaster: you never returned my ping 22:58:58 oerjan, hm? 22:59:02 oerjan, correct 22:59:34 sending but not responding is a swattable offense -----### 22:59:46 oerjan, ever been at the receiving end of what might be called "DDoCtP"? 23:00:14 ("distributed denial of connection through ping", yes I just made it up) 23:00:30 Anmaster is using RawIRC. 23:00:34 no, unless that's why my net is slow 23:01:11 oerjan, basically, lots of clients connect and all ping you as fast as possible, you end up either flooding yourself off, if client sucks, or with a long send queue if the client does proper rate limiting. 23:01:16 rather nasty 23:01:26 thus I simply ignore CTCP from *!*@* 23:01:54 AnMaster: also, your SendQ would overflow anyway whether you ignored the CTCPs or not 23:01:59 if enough people tried to send to you at once 23:02:17 ais523, hm? I meant send queue on client side 23:02:25 AnMaster: the server one would flood 23:02:38 ais523, yes, if enough, but that tends to be rather hard 23:03:28 ais523, since I have successfully seen on a test net, (with normal settings for SendQ size) over 20000 clients split from a channel 23:03:36 yep 23:03:53 Freenode got quite a way through the channels list when I accidentally sent it WHO without parameters once 23:03:54 so I think flooding that one would require oper abilities at least 23:04:06 I think ignoring pings is against the ctcp spec 23:04:16 ehird: but this is IRC we're talking about 23:04:16 ais523, who isn't channel list 23:04:23 also yes that is a case where it can flood off 23:04:26 ais523: ahem— we're talking to AnMaster 23:04:29 ais523: specifications. 23:04:30 the spec lets you embed CTCPs in the middle of lines 23:04:30 ehird, ctcp isn't an official spec 23:04:33 nobody implements that 23:04:39 i'm sure AnMaster patched it in 23:04:46 AnMaster: and who does who for all channels in alphabetical order 23:04:49 at least on freenode 23:04:49 ais523, yes some do... and I was not involved 23:04:51 if you don't give args 23:04:59 it was about halfway through a, IIRC 23:05:06 ais523, true, which aren't +s, and where the user haven't set themselves as non-visible 23:05:07 and so on 23:06:49 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 23:09:54 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:13:14 the ctcp spec is so complicated 23:13:19 it's pretty lulzy 23:13:25 nobody does more than the basic 23:13:30 except i think some perl irc module 23:19:20 #.+./#:2 10$i.10 23:19:20 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 23:19:21 Grr. 23:19:22 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:20:01 ehird, why "grr"? 23:20:10 Not the result I wanted. 23:20:18 is that J or Perl? 23:20:29 * ehird feeds not the troll. 23:20:38 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:20:40 so neither? 23:22:59 * ehird reasons. "#:2 16$i.16" is a 3d-array, where both Zs are the same, X is going along the bit pattern, and Y goes down the list of numbers. 23:23:09 now I need to operate on each (X,Y) from both Zs. 23:23:55 -!- jix has joined. 23:24:08 the question is how. 23:25:35 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 23:27:04 ok, folding over works 23:28:15 wtfffffffff 23:40:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:48:43 *BAM!* 23:48:49 That's the sound of a new language forming. 23:49:00 average sized language 23:49:24 oerjan, possibly, or slightly smaller 23:49:29 oerjan: hurf durf 23:49:31 AnMaster: whoosh 23:49:49 ehird, *blink*? I was joking too 23:50:07 AnMaster: i don't think you got the meme reference 23:50:54 ehird, "hurf druf"? then no. But I know "BAM" in comics. Oh and I also seen references in some comics saying "to be a big explosion the text needs to be at least this big" and similiar 23:51:01 >_< 23:51:04 but possibly there is some silly 4chan meme too 23:51:12 AnMaster: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH 23:51:13 which I don't really care about 23:51:20 (A tornado envelops AnMaster's house.) 23:51:25 (He dies. All is peaceful. ~fin~) 23:51:34 ehird, I don't care about 4chan memes really 23:51:44 Every meme is from 4chan, clearly. 23:51:55 ehird, no, but quite a few of the silly ones are 23:51:57 If by "4chan", you mean "the Internet". 23:52:00 everything is from 4chan 23:52:17 4chan is from 4chan 23:52:18 oerjan, if so, it is recursive 23:52:19 true fax. 23:52:22 ehird, damn you 23:52:27 beat me by half a second 23:53:08 IF YOU'RE NOT GREEN, 23:53:09 TURN INTO A WALRUS. 23:53:48 ehird, I don't care if you say "woosh", I'm not here to please you, nor the reverse. 23:54:06 AnMaster: getting pissy because he misses a reference since 2007. 23:54:27 ehird, huh? I'm not the pissy one. 23:54:29 You are 23:54:36 in this case at least. 23:54:40 I'm amused 23:54:47 at how easy you get irritated 23:55:00 I never once said anything that was not calm and uncaring. "23:53 AnMaster: ehird, I don't care if you say "woosh", I'm not here to please you, nor the reverse." is very clearly annoyed. 23:55:28 ehird, I was trying to inform you, since you didn't seem aware 23:55:46 " AnMaster: WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHH" is clearly annoyed. 23:56:00 AnMaster: ...how is that annoyed? 23:56:11 ehird, how is it not. bbl 23:56:34 oerjan: Let's talk about the decay of rationality, reason and logic in favour of emotionalism, pissiness and assertions. 23:57:17 but first, food ->