2009-06-01: 00:00:31 use geothermal cooling! 00:00:47 bury your radiator under a pond 00:01:06 bsmntbombdood: i'll just have a huge pump with a section of tube that goes into space 00:01:12 perfect 00:01:14 that should cool it adequately. 00:04:12 bsmntbombdood: all the radiators seem to be designed for use w/ fans 00:04:19 duh 00:04:25 bsmntbombdood: maybe I should get two low-dissipation radiators 00:04:37 as long as they're a few cm apart, should be fine 00:05:01 bsmntbombdood: no? 00:05:02 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:05:37 -!- nooga has joined. 00:06:26 bsmntbombdood: your silence is agreement 00:07:51 ion wind cooling would be cool 00:08:56 bsmntbombdood: passive agreement 00:12:07 bsmntbombdood: 00:12:08 Koolance Releases Its First LN2 CPU Cooler 00:12:09 The CPU-LN2 is for cooling enthusiasts using liquid nitrogen. It supports a wide range of current processors, including: Intel LGA-1366, LGA-775, AMD AM2, AM2+, AM3, and others. 00:12:17 bsmntbombdood: y/n 00:12:25 hardehar 00:12:35 bsmntbombdood: it's only $144.99 00:12:37 :) 00:12:44 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:12:54 00:04 ehird: bsmntbombdood: maybe I should get two low-dissipation radiators 00:12:54 00:04 ehird: as long as they're a few cm apart, should be fine 00:12:55 00:05 ehird: bsmntbombdood: no? 00:13:05 dunno 00:13:17 don't see why not 00:13:57 that + take off case fan grill + put a lot of stuff in the loop (but not _everything_, due to a gigantic mass of wires not being appealing - the rest can be handled w/ the minimal natural airflow) 00:14:02 = 0dB 00:19:41 bsmntbombdood: amirite 00:19:45 you keep saying it won't work 00:19:47 i don't see why not 00:20:21 depends on the pump i guess 00:21:05 bsmntbombdood: ehh, you wouldn't need too much 00:23:30 00:23:49 bsmntbombdood: wut 00:31:30 bsmntbombdood: wut 00:31:34 00:31:54 bsmntbombdood: wut 00:32:06 00:32:16 bsmntbombdood: wut 00:39:19 bsmntbombdood: wut 00:41:09 ehird, lostkingdom contains an easter egg it seems 00:41:22 os("\n\nYou have activated the easter egg"); 00:41:26 I don't know WHAT it is 00:41:34 just that it exists 00:42:17 AnMaster: ask your compiler 00:42:27 ehird, not good enough yet :P 00:43:10 bsmntbombdood: apparently car radiators can dissipate just about anything fanlessly 00:43:13 AnMaster: you've said something asbout sleeping? 00:43:13 :D ehird 00:43:18 "NO" 00:43:18 coppro: vut? 00:43:19 i would hope so 00:43:20 yes 00:43:21 NO. 00:43:31 bsmntbombdood: the question is, why can't pc radiators? 00:43:34 they're basically the same 00:43:40 because they're small 00:43:41 bsmntbombdood: apparently car radiators can dissipate just about anything fanlessly <-- part of this is due to car moving maybe? 00:43:42 that reminds me thah cooling in my mercedes-benz is broken ;C 00:43:49 -!- Dewio has joined. 00:43:50 AnMaster: ...no 00:43:54 ehird, kay 00:44:00 bsmntbombdood: i guess 00:44:03 car radiators aren't huge though 00:44:05 Cars also have free power 00:44:19 bsmntbombdood: here's the one that was mentioned: http://www.radiatorworld.com/radiatorworldfinal/displayProducts.aspx?carno=26640 00:44:24 coppro: since when? 00:44:41 well, for certain definitions of fere 00:44:43 *free 00:44:58 bsmntbombdood: ugh, that's alum 00:46:10 so? 00:46:16 bsmntbombdood: copper waterblocks 00:46:21 + aluminum radiator 00:46:24 = CORROSION AHOY 00:49:33 HARUMPH 00:55:48 " Cars also have free power" " well, for certain definitions of free" 00:55:58 free (adj): With cost 00:56:03 heh 00:56:07 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 00:56:18 Free is cost! 00:56:37 If it's free, the cost is spitting on the American flag! 00:56:37 Pax is unpax! 00:56:48 .NET is free! 00:57:02 * pikhq lights the flag on fire 00:58:18 pikhq: is defacing the flag actually illegal in the us of a? 00:58:26 ehird: No. 00:58:33 There were attempts to make it illega. 00:58:37 i've heard somewhere that it was 00:58:37 ah 00:58:43 Illegal, rather. 00:59:14 No. There was a "suggested code of conduct" passed by Congress regarding the flag, but it's a suggestion, not law. 00:59:26 And that was passed back in the 1800s. 00:59:35 (I think a bit after the Civil War) 01:04:01 all i want is a gigantic radiator 01:04:05 is that too much to ask for 01:04:31 YES. 01:04:49 * pikhq sets the Union Jack on fire for that one 01:05:10 a 01:06:12 bsmntbombdood: which of these sounds more radiating to you: 01:06:16 Feser TFC Xchanger - Monsta Extreme Radiator 420/360 01:06:17 Feser X-Changer QUAD 480 Extreme Performance Radiator 01:06:19 the former costs more 01:06:23 $100 more 01:06:23 :P 01:06:55 Fuck it. 01:07:01 pikhq: fuck what 01:07:08 * pikhq sets the EU and UN flags on fire. Piss off everyone. 01:07:14 Europeans more so. 01:07:21 never heard of em 01:09:54 bsmntbombdood: the reserator seems to be the best fanless copper radiator you can get 01:10:39 -!- AnMaster_ has joined. 01:11:25 bsmntbombdood: http://www.highspeedpc.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=InnovaKonvect 01:11:28 Standard: 01:11:28 (hxlxw): 35x23x5cm 01:11:29 Weight: 4.76 pounds 01:11:31 Dissipates approx. 80 watts 01:11:33 MAXI: 01:11:35 (hxlxw): 45x33x5cm !! 01:11:37 Weight 10.5 pounds !! 01:11:39 Dissipates approx. 125 watts 01:11:41 looks like two chained reserators is the way to go... 01:11:51 -!- AnMaster has quit (Nick collision from services.). 01:13:41 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster. 01:15:35 bsmntbombdood: 'nother one that does 130W 01:15:40 nothing >=200W yet 01:15:41 AnMaſter: Þou art known as AnMaſter. How dareſt thee? 01:15:53 where did you see the reservator dissipating 200w? 01:16:02 bsmntbombdood: user anecdotes 01:16:19 's all you have to go on, really 01:16:39 the systems I've seen people use w/ them generally look about 200w too 01:16:40 argh 01:16:42 need testing 01:17:22 bsmntbombdood: yeah, well, it's consistent 01:18:06 buy all of them, a well calibrated heating element, and some high quality thermometers 01:18:09 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 01:18:15 bsmntbombdood: and a new wallet 01:18:49 bsmntbombdood: specs say 1,274m2 dissipation area 01:18:53 which I assume means 1.274m2 01:19:09 giggle 01:19:16 bsmntbombdood: what 01:19:29 1274 m**2 01:19:36 yeah 01:19:39 best. radiator. evarr 01:21:50 bsmntbombdood: my ass says that the reserator dissipates 2345872389729384W 01:21:58 it is a very accurate ass 01:22:10 accura-tass 01:22:55 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 01:22:58 bsmntbombdood: user anecdote says that it can cool a core 2 quad @ 2.66 plus two nvidia 8600GTSes at load below 27C 01:23:07 let's look at dem TDPs 01:23:27 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THEY DON'T SAY 01:23:30 i have to GOOGLE. 01:24:39 bsmntbombdood: you find out the heat of a 8600GTS 01:24:46 and I'll find out the heat of a core 2 quad @ 2.66ghz 01:24:52 TEAM WURK 01:25:04 65W 01:25:32 Minimum of a 350 Watt power supply. (Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 22 Amp Amps.) 01:25:32 Minimum 450 Watt for SLI mode system. (Minimum recommended power supply with +12 Volt current rating of 24 Amp Amps.) 01:25:35 An available 6 pin PCI-E power connector (hard drive power dongle to PCI-E 6 pin adapter included with card) 01:25:38 bsmntbombdood: how much heat do you think 01:25:43 totally unhelpful specs 01:26:08 do they need the extra power connector? 01:26:19 no idea 01:26:23 they don't seem like how-powered cards though 01:26:27 mainstream 8 generation 01:26:29 circa 2007 01:26:32 *high-powered 01:26:53 $200 price range 01:26:56 when they were released 01:27:18 aha 01:27:20 power consumption 01:27:25 argh 01:27:27 "entire system" 01:27:28 fuck you 01:28:10 bsmntbombdood: ah a low-powered looking system here 01:28:15 8600 GTS XXX, which I guess means overclocked 01:28:17 198W at load 01:28:28 bsmntbombdood: so shall we say 40W for the un-overclocked one? 01:28:48 bsmntbombdood: 65W + 40W*2(=145W) = 210W 01:28:54 nvida says 110w for the 8800 01:29:00 bsmntbombdood: 8600 gts 01:29:03 way different 01:29:07 8800 was high-end 01:29:09 this is mainstream 01:29:42 er wait 01:29:47 right 01:29:58 bsmntbombdood: shall we say 40W? 01:30:02 it's probably a low estimate 01:30:04 too low 01:30:14 bsmntbombdood: well 01:30:23 bsmntbombdood: if we say 40W, the cpu + 2 graphics cards = 210W 01:30:30 so the reserator can dissipate *at least* 210W 01:30:37 leaving the components below 27C 01:30:53 bsmntbombdood: 01:30:54 "Struggles to work with the newer 2 x nVidia 8800 as they just got too hot over 61 degrees celsius out of game reset in game RED HOT no overclock uses as the cards would have gone into meltdown! " 01:31:00 110*2 = 220W 01:31:00 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:31:12 so it dissipates at least 210W, but below 220W 01:31:30 if we're conservative and say 210, that's 420W if you chain two together 01:31:38 less than the i7+295 = 429W 01:31:40 phooey 01:32:14 bsmntbombdood: best route is probably a copper car radiator 01:32:18 yes 01:32:25 but you didn't want to diy 01:32:40 bsmntbombdood: that's w/ thinking i can use 2 reserators 01:32:46 i don't really want to buy three 01:33:01 haha 01:33:07 this is awesome 01:33:10 what 01:33:22 so grepping all of my irc logs before - 2-3 minutes 01:33:23 bsmntbombdood: 'big truck radiators' 01:33:28 yes? 01:33:33 grepping all my irc logs now, on the ssd...12 seconds 01:33:38 :) 01:33:42 ssds are awesome 01:33:44 not even cached 01:33:54 remember when you thought the ssd wasn't worth the money? 01:33:55 me too 01:33:57 the second time you grep, 1.1 seconds 01:33:58 fun times 01:34:23 bsmntbombdood: argh car radiator shops suck they all sort by brand 01:34:32 I DON'T CARE ABOUT BRAND JUST GIMME A RADIATOR 01:34:33 ehird: junkyard 01:34:43 bsmntbombdood: i don't know of a junkyard nearby 01:34:47 and I need copper 01:34:52 copper car radiators are rare 01:35:06 haha this will be so ghetto 01:35:17 mounting a big car radiator on the wall of some unused stairs 01:35:25 it may even be ghettotastic 01:36:09 bsmntbombdood: how much do you think a car radiator can dissipate fanlessly? 01:36:11 i bet ~300W 01:36:31 so... i'll probably need two 01:36:35 if that's accurate. 01:37:09 bsmntbombdood: how much do you think? 01:37:58 no clue 01:40:14 bsmntbombdood: maybe i should use quantum cooling 01:40:30 if (!magically_evaporated(heat)) destroy_universe(); 01:41:24 bsmntbombdood: i can't find any pure-copper radiators :<<<<<<<<<<<< 01:41:54 so? 01:41:59 why are you set on copper 01:42:05 bsmntbombdood: copper waterblocks 01:42:25 spell it with me: g-a-l-v-a-n-i-c c-o-r-r-o-s-i-o-n 01:42:25 | | | 01:42:26 /| /'\ |\ 01:43:24 make an open-air radiator 01:43:31 bsmntbombdood: what 01:43:35 a large angled sheet 01:43:40 lol 01:44:11 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 01:44:24 a friend just had an interesting idea for an esolang 01:45:54 basically, the language would be legalese. 01:46:38 heh 01:46:48 o 01:47:05 -o-o-o- 01:47:05 | | 01:47:05 /| /| 01:47:15 myndzi: stop that 01:47:17 it's obnoxious 01:47:17 THEY'RE HOLDING HIS HEAD! 01:47:29 johnkeilloh@aol.com 01:47:32 err 01:47:35 http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/How_many_lawyers_does_it_take_to_change_a_lightbulb%3F 01:47:38 stupid copy-paste 01:47:42 johnkeilloh@aol.com 01:47:52 -!- Patashu has joined. 01:50:52 coppro: funny, but poorly done. 01:52:09 yeah, the original was better 01:52:16 that was the one that popped up on google 01:52:19 lawyers do not define their terms and then fail to use them uniformly in place of "part of the ..." 01:52:27 party of the* 01:53:06 and actually, when they were paid by the word, they probably would have 01:53:14 no, they dont. 01:53:41 exchange: you give me a copper car radiator, i give you semi-eternal gratitude 01:53:43 any takers? 01:54:18 no. 01:54:58 fuck you 01:55:13 its not for not wanting to 01:55:23 its just that were all on the internet, you see 01:55:33 psygnisfive: exchange: you help me find a copper car radiator, i give you semi-eternal gratitude 01:56:31 psygnisfive: very possible! 01:56:36 craigslist.co.uk 01:56:52 psygnisfive: cl isn't in my city. 01:57:00 because its not a city. 01:57:03 so? maybe the person will ship! 01:57:05 its a town. a small abbey town. 01:57:13 psygnisfive: that's not helping me to find one :) 01:57:40 oooh alright 01:57:40 http://shop.ebay.co.uk/items/?_nkw=copper+radiator&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=copper+car+radiator&_osacat=0 01:57:41 :| 01:57:58 psygnisfive: none of those tell me how much heat they dissipate :) 01:58:05 look up the specs! 01:58:38 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RENAULT-5-GT-TURBO-FULL-COPPER-RADIATOR-CORE_W0QQitemZ390055782501QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM?hash=item5ad122e865&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1121%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50 okay Renault 5 GT Turbo google for that oh just more sellings of the copper core. 01:58:41 impossible 01:59:50 call renault! 01:59:58 mmmmmnope 02:00:15 oh well! 02:05:43 ehird: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Quinn-Adagio-QS7002CP-Copper-Colour-Designer-Radiator_W0QQitemZ280347991448QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Home_Garden_Hearing_Cooling_Air?hash=item41460add98&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50 02:06:25 bsmntbombdood: 1239W? 02:06:27 impressive 02:06:46 bsmntbombdood: except 02:06:50 bsmntbombdood: it's 6 feet tall 02:07:01 stairs aren't high enough to fit something 6 feet tall on a wall 02:07:21 uh 02:07:27 thats not a car radiator tho 02:07:36 psygnisfive: it's a radiator w/ high wattage, and it's copper 02:07:42 ..... 02:07:43 psygnisfive: good enough to watercool a computer. 02:07:45 YOU SAID CAR RADIATOR 02:07:47 yes 02:07:50 because car radiators have high wattage 02:07:53 so i looked for car radiators. 02:08:07 had you TOLD ME you wanted just ANY radiator that wouldnt been different! :| 02:08:11 :P 02:08:14 ebay has lots of those. 02:08:21 psygnisfive: right then,. 02:08:23 that. 02:08:24 *. 02:09:24 bsmntbombdood: how did you search for it? 02:09:30 "copper radiator" 02:09:35 i said bsmntbombdood 02:09:38 so? 02:12:20 bsmntbombdood: 02:14:45 bsmntbombdood: that radiator doesn't list its water capacity 02:14:55 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 02:15:01 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 02:15:36 ehird, why the hell do you need such a large radiator for a computer? 02:15:48 psygnisfive: ~429 watts of height, buddy. 02:15:54 what 02:15:55 psygnisfive: he wants it passive 02:16:01 two zalman reserators only dissipate 420W total 02:16:07 so I need to go more heavy-duty 02:16:12 but yeah 02:16:13 no fans. 02:16:16 i see 02:16:30 why do you want to eliminate fans?? 02:16:44 psygnisfive: one word 02:16:45 Noise. 02:16:57 If I wanted fans, I'd go for air cooling, not water cooling. 02:16:57 water pumps make noise 02:17:07 psygnisfive: Yes, that's why I'm putting it in the next room 02:17:15 Also, good water pumps are inaudible from a very short distance 02:17:17 oh i see 02:17:18 Much more inaudible than fans 02:17:21 youre crazy 02:17:30 and more so, your parents are crazy for letting you do this 02:17:38 seriously, wtf are you doing that fan noise is an issue? :P 02:17:45 psygnisfive: perhaps— but the only moving parts in my system will be one measly pump and a HD for data (os on solid state drive) 02:17:50 also, thinking :) 02:18:06 ... 02:18:07 lmfao 02:18:12 youre crazy 02:18:16 i have very good hearing 02:18:30 uh huh :P 02:18:34 i can hear little noises from the living room - separated by an awful lot of space, and a thick wall 02:18:35 "thinking" 02:18:35 After this, he's making an anechoic chamber. 02:18:36 lol. 02:18:40 :p 02:18:41 yes, thinking 02:18:47 psygnisfive: also. 02:18:50 SO MUCH THINKING TO BE DONE 02:19:00 a computer with no fans at all? the geek factor is high. 02:19:50 pikhq, hes going to be doing thinking, you know. 02:20:06 anechoic chambers actually aren't very good for you 02:20:07 i want an anechoic chamer 02:20:13 for being in for a long time 02:20:21 your body expects some noise 02:20:25 ehird: yeah, you get too much thinking done 02:20:31 psygnisfive: fuck off :) 02:20:35 ;) 02:20:41 tee hee "thinking" 02:20:43 ehird you're so adorable. 02:20:48 psygnisfive: dude, it was a joke 02:20:50 get over yourself 02:20:53 bye, anyway. 02:20:55 * pikhq gets pissed at his Internet connection. Will be back when it decides to do HTTP faster than 300 baud 02:21:13 you know it wasnt a joke, ehird 02:21:30 actually, one more thing psygnisfive 02:21:43 oh dear 02:22:06 you're a mac user right? I'm buying a high-end machine. Did you know that a lot of work that goes into Macs is to silence them? If you think that's what a high-end system sounds like, you really have no idea how loud they can be. 02:22:08 bye → 02:22:21 lol 02:27:23 man. ehird needs to get fucked 02:40:25 * bsmntbombdood eats a popsicle 02:40:29 (seductively) 02:47:31 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 02:50:53 I would like to present the pinnacle of diactrics technology: ı̥̈̇̉̆̅̄̃̂́̀̐̑̒̊ 02:51:07 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 02:52:04 HE COMES 02:57:47 I think I see a lambda 02:58:01 coppro: No lambda. 02:58:13 Just 15 Unicode combining characters. 03:14:23 -!- calamari has joined. 03:34:28 -!- Dewio has changed nick to Dewi. 03:36:12 -!- puzzlet has joined. 04:32:14 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 04:56:24 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com ."). 05:14:32 * kerlo uses the present perfect progressive tense, thereby making all non-native speakers in the world wonder why he didn't use the past progressive, the present perfect, or the simple past tense. 05:15:32 a tense situation 05:15:36 (I wanted to imply that I expect that the action has not stopped and will continue into the future.) 05:15:43 Yeah. 05:36:21 -!- rodgort has joined. 05:55:31 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:56:02 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 06:12:26 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:12:36 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 06:13:23 -!- olsner has joined. 06:23:09 anyone here ever read the whole of the human genome? 06:23:44 Nah. 06:23:57 Same reason that I wouldn't read the whole encyclopedia. 06:24:16 hm! 06:33:35 How big is the human genome? 06:33:56 Couple gigs? 06:33:58 a few megs. 06:34:21 A few megs? Gosh, that's tiny. 06:34:26 yes, it is. 06:34:52 You could read a few megs of text in... not all that long. 06:34:59 ofcourse it depends on how you describe it 06:35:09 Two bits per base? 06:35:10 in ACGT form? or in gene form? 06:35:30 What is "gene form"? 06:35:34 like 06:35:41 FOXP2 is the name of a gene 06:35:46 So a list of the names of genes? 06:35:51 which is probably hundreds or thousands of base pairs long 06:36:07 I'm guessing that's what the few megs number is. 06:36:17 There's really no point unless you're also reading the genes themselves. 06:37:12 Which is, of course, a completely reasonable thing to do. You look at the GATTACA, translate that into amino acids, and imagine how that would fold. 06:37:25 teehee gattaca 06:37:26 :3 06:40:34 Sure enough. A freaking MySQL dump is a few megs. 06:42:00 ey? 06:42:33 Some site has a searchable index of genomes. They publish MySQL dumps. 06:42:39 ahh 06:44:24 i cant find the genome at all 06:44:50 there used to be a place where you could just download a text file with the whole thing in it 06:44:54 but i guess not anymore 06:48:20 There's apparently a DNA sequence called piggyBac. 06:48:28 It's a transposon. 06:52:30 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 07:30:07 -!- whtspc has joined. 07:44:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:44:31 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 07:45:20 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:19 -!- whtspc has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]"). 08:21:45 21:14:32 * kerlo uses the present perfect progressive tense, thereby making all non-native speakers in the world wonder why he didn't use the past progressive, the present perfect, or the simple past tense. 08:21:49 21:15:32 a tense situation 08:22:14 good pun 08:22:16 what we in the business call a "pun" 08:22:43 no, kerlo didn't (i am pretty sure that tense has the form "has been -ing", which he did not use). Also, Gracenotes, i must sue you for patent infringement. nothing personal. 08:25:43 22:23:57 Same reason that I wouldn't read the whole encyclopedia. 08:26:03 * oerjan recalls doing most of the "A" volume when young 08:26:16 alas, interest was too fleeting... 08:27:34 (technically, the A-BEM volume, iirc) 08:28:30 ha, crappy encyclopedia 08:28:32 also, a lot of pointer chasing. 08:28:40 the first volume of mine is AAA-AAB 08:28:53 ooh 08:29:09 er, wait 08:29:17 * oerjan swats bsmntbombdood -----### 08:29:24 DOES NOT COMPUTE 08:30:12 why not? 08:31:09 no way is there an entire volume of things starting with AA 08:31:52 especially as your volume doesn't even _get_ to aardvark or aachen 08:32:01 like i said, it's large 08:32:54 aaa is even more dubious. although i suppose aab could take up more than half of the volume. 08:33:03 hm... 08:35:34 It's not an English encyclopedia. 08:35:45 It's an Aaabaaabaabababian encyclopedia. 08:35:54 aaa. 08:36:38 so the next volume is BAA-BAB, and there are only two of them. 08:36:49 oh wait 08:36:56 No, there's a short BBA-BBB volume. 08:37:03 forgot ABA 08:37:07 Oh yeah :P 08:37:11 ABA-ABBA 08:37:26 although it only has a single obscure band under the latter 08:38:39 so, three volumes. 08:38:43 er, four 08:39:03 nope, there's a full 17,576 volumes 08:40:15 we don't BELIEVE you 08:41:53 orn.org is available. 09:06:44 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:08:25 -!- Dewi has joined. 09:15:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:17:55 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:19:10 wow, wtf is up with the BF Joust scoreboard? 09:19:26 I don't get how defend6 and 7 can be so high up, with defend9 low down 09:19:54 and nothing scoring above 60, which is also rather suspicious 09:22:02 clearly someone reversed the polarity. and then took the average. 09:22:11 * oerjan crawls back under his rock. 09:22:26 well, that would explain why the points are no longer integers 09:22:42 defend9 is meant to be pretty polarity-independent, though 09:22:53 the only bit that really cares about polarity is the decoys 09:22:56 also, average over tape length 09:23:25 ah 09:23:34 but that should help defend9 even more, it doesn't like excessively short tapes 09:23:39 so I'm a bit surprised at the results 09:23:49 so there may still be a bug somewhere... 09:27:34 is it still using egojoust as the interp? 09:28:08 i think so, i saw a mention by GregorR-L about wanting to keep the interp part standalone 09:28:11 although, most of defend9's losses are to programs I don't recognise 09:28:25 so I suspect people have just been attacking it 09:34:52 I'm fairly certain there are no bugs. 09:35:01 The interp is still separate, it just returns a more strange integer now :P 09:35:06 yep, the results don't seem to indicate a bug to me 09:35:12 http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/SCORES for the new system 09:35:16 although they are rather interesting 09:35:41 and it's rather strange to see two od myprograms that must be almost a week old by now up the top of the leaderboard 09:35:45 *two of my programs 09:35:52 obviously [-] loops have made a comeback 09:47:17 * GregorR-L wurves that people complain regardless of the changes he makes 8-D 09:47:56 I'm not complaining, just surprised 09:48:03 I like the changes 09:48:15 but am surprised at how they changed the leaderboard 09:48:40 I'll bet there's a bigger potential audience for BF Joust out there. 09:48:44 Soooomewheeeere 09:48:52 yes 09:49:03 people who never really got into corewar, for instance 09:52:31 GregorR-L: have you sped up egojoust? or will I get shot if I make another version of defend9? 09:52:51 I sped it up since it really killed it. It's not megafast, but it's fine. 09:53:00 ok 09:53:20 The main problem isn't the base speed, but the sheer number of runs for every configuration, at this point :P 09:59:50 (Oh, and it does expand ({})%, though it doesn't expand ()*, so ({})%10000000 is to be avoided :P ) 10:00:10 egojoust seems buggy on nested ({})% 10:00:19 I had to replace it with ([)* for defend9 10:00:34 admittedly, there are some negative RLEs due to a bug in my generation script, but I don't think that code often gets run 10:09:31 !bfjoust speedy0 >>>>>>>>>([-[+++]]>)*20 10:09:38 Score for ais523_speedy0: 11.1 10:09:42 !bfjoust speedy0 >>>>>>>>>([-[+++]]>)*21 10:09:50 Score for ais523_speedy0: 11.5 10:10:16 !bfjoust speedy0 >>>>>>>>>([-[+]]>)*21 10:10:24 Score for ais523_speedy0: 17.3 10:10:58 * ais523 wonders why defend9 loses to that 10:15:07 ais523: I fixed that bug a while ago. 10:15:15 ais523: Or at least I think I did ... the nested ({}) bug that is. 10:15:25 ah, ok 10:18:21 -!- ais523 has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"). 10:19:21 -!- Judofyr has joined. 10:23:18 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:26:17 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 10:26:51 I haven't seen BFJoust before. Where are the rules? 10:28:54 http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF%20Joust 10:29:02 Thanks. 10:29:33 Unsurprisingly, we're using the version ais made. 10:31:20 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 10:31:20 technically doing all forms of 10:31:21 inversion should be unnecessary, but they're done for ... "completeness" 10:31:37 GregorR-L: ^ um, you mean "stupidity"? 10:31:46 Yes. 10:31:50 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:31:54 Hence the ellipses and question mark :P 10:31:54 reverting one of them is enough... 10:32:17 Yeah, I didn't think about it when I first wrote it, then I went "oh yeah, 128 is 128 away from 0 in either direction" 10:32:30 But I'm too lazy to change it right now, and it makes no actual difference except time, so *eh* 10:33:01 doubling time that is 10:33:46 2x is irrelevant. 10:34:56 I had to replace it with ([)* for defend9 <-- i thought ([)* was illegal 10:35:21 GregorR-L: do you support ([)* ? 10:35:47 oerjan: Yes, although it oughtn't. 10:35:50 It is illegal. 10:35:54 But it works :P 10:36:01 without expansion? 10:36:34 because if so you could just turn (a{b}c)%n -> (a)*n b (c)*n 10:36:57 ()* is expanded if it includes [ or ], ATM. 10:37:02 i see 10:37:31 because the only reason to have ({})% is because ()* requires balanced []'s 10:38:10 GregorR-L: it wouldn't be bad to allow ([)* if you could do it efficiently 10:38:35 oerjan: I'm only allowing ([) because I'm not handling the situation efficiently in general :P 10:38:43 ic 10:40:26 !info 10:40:26 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ 10:43:57 argh! the horizontal scrollbar of hg's file browser is stupid! 10:44:16 ? 10:44:50 it's _not_ in the visible part of the _window_, i have to scroll the main window to _see_ the inner scrollbar! 10:45:09 Are you using some wacko browser? Super-low resolution? 10:45:14 IE 10:45:33 Ah, wacko browser. 10:45:42 oh... 10:45:50 the problem is not the browser 10:45:59 the problem is my 1280x800 laptop screen 10:46:14 My laptop screen is 1280x800, and I have no issues :P 10:46:44 well it's only an issue for that one long line in egojoust.c 10:47:17 well, two long lines 10:47:52 Oh, lookie there. 10:48:01 When I adjusted my font, I managed to produce stupiditude. 10:48:19 also i like a fairly large font 10:48:24 Yup, that's fekky. 10:48:27 *eh* 10:50:02 I ate a probably-not-insubstantial part of a mosquito today. 10:50:07 ok maximizing the window helps too 10:50:14 eew! 10:50:29 My arm itched but my hands were full, so I instinctively bit to scratch. 10:50:48 Suffice to say that when your arm itches because the mosquito is still there, that's not a good idea. 10:51:05 GregorR-L: i like to keep a small part of the irc window visible under my browser, so i can see if there is activity 10:51:55 Makes sense *shrugs* 10:52:18 GregorR-L: well it's protein! 10:52:40 It tasted mostly like (presumably my own) blood, surprisingly sweet, with a little bit of bitterness. 10:53:22 oerjan, hi 10:53:27 hi AnMaster 10:58:27 GregorR-L: huh, it looks to me like you have most of the ingredients for doing (balanced) ({})% and ()* without expansion already - you keep a stack of counters 11:02:19 it is irritating when you find totally messed up logic in programs you wrote yourself... 11:02:39 it is even more irritating when the incorrect logic actually works too. 11:06:09 !help 11:06:10 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google gregor hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge notecho num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yod 11:06:33 GregorR-L: hey, yodawg got cut off! 11:08:21 !userinterps 11:08:21 Installed user interpreters: bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo echo google gregor hello num ook rot13 slashes yodawg 11:09:03 bfbignum? 11:09:09 in what language is it written 11:09:18 !show bfbignum 11:09:19 bf (sending via DCC) 11:09:24 in bf? 11:09:26 heh 11:09:29 bf, clearly 11:09:38 wonder who made it 11:09:58 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; Keymaker's brainfuck interpreter 11:09:58 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; a brainfuck interpreter written in brainfuck 11:09:58 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; the memory cells can hold any value from zero to infinity 11:09:58 12:09 =EgoBot> ;; written by Keymaker 11:10:41 hm 11:10:52 can they hold actual infinity? ;P 11:12:27 ask keymaker 11:12:54 [+] 11:12:57 !help asm 11:12:58 Sorry, I have no help for asm! 11:13:04 TRY THAT EGOBOT 11:13:37 !bfbignum .[+.] 11:13:47 wait that is dead 11:13:51 !bfbignum +.[+.] 11:13:51 11:14:14 !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~€‚ƒ„…†‡ˆ‰Š‹ŒŽ‘’“”•–—˜™š›œžŸ ¡¢£€¥¦§¨©ª«¬­®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ 11:14:16 and so on 11:14:22 Slereah_: You can do inline ASM in C. 11:14:40 I closed the chat after a while 11:14:47 AnMaster: It's limited to 128K anyway :P 11:14:54 !bfbignum +.[+.] 11:14:55 11:15:01 GregorR, 128 k output? 11:15:13 Yeah 11:15:20 is that kibibyte or kilobyte? ;P 11:15:30 kibi 11:15:33 heh 11:15:38 Kibble-bite. 11:15:52 Gracenotes, how many kilonibbles! 11:16:01 Kibblenibbles? 11:16:12 no, kilo 11:16:18 continuity byte 11:16:29 Gracenotes, what 11:16:30 Owait 11:16:35 oerjan: You can do inline ASM in C. 11:16:38 I directed that wrong :P 11:17:49 !notecho huh? 11:17:50 huh? 11:17:56 !show notecho 11:17:57 That is not a user interpreter! 11:18:01 ... 11:18:02 ? 11:18:22 GregorR-L: it was not being a user interpreter that made me wonder... 11:18:42 !notecho Echo! Echo! 11:18:42 Echo! Echo! 11:18:45 oh wait 11:18:49 !echo Echo! 11:18:50 Echo! 11:18:54 nah 11:18:54 Oh, hahah 11:19:01 I put that there while I was testing something. 11:19:14 test as well, i assume 11:19:24 No, !echo is a userinterp 11:19:25 !show echo 11:19:26 bf ,[.,] 11:19:27 !show num 11:19:28 sadol !1 11:19:34 !num 3+3 11:19:35 1 11:19:40 !num 44 11:19:41 1 11:19:43 Some good math there. 11:19:48 whatever 11:19:50 !userinterp dc sh dc 11:19:54 !dc 1 + 1 11:20:01 Well, that was successful. 11:20:12 Oh, I don't have dc installed :P 11:20:15 !delinterp dc 11:20:15 That interpreter doesn't exist! 11:20:27 Oh, also I added it wrong. 11:20:31 Wow I rule. 11:20:39 !show show 11:20:40 That is not a user interpreter! 11:20:50 !help 11:20:51 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bc bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google gregor hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodawg 11:20:58 why is show listed there 11:21:05 rather than at the beginning 11:21:43 Because it's in the hcmds directory *shrugs* 11:21:49 -!- nooga has joined. 11:21:55 !bc 2 * 1000000 11:21:56 2000000 11:22:47 !bc x=8;y=x;y*2 11:22:47 16 11:23:00 uhm 11:24:10 It's GNU bc 11:25:17 GregorR, what about dc... it is a lot easier to use than bc 11:25:47 Has anyone done a program that would try seriously to recognize the opposing program? And briefly set its own flag to 0 just long enough to trick the opponent into stepping out of the array? 11:26:23 dbc: IMHO any program that took long enough to detect such things would lose while taking that time. 11:26:39 AnMaster: ... you're not Polish, you're Swedish, you're not supposed to like Reverse Polish Notation :P 11:26:47 GregorR, but I do! 11:26:55 almost as much as prefix notation 11:27:01 !bc 10/42 11:27:02 0 11:27:04 waht 11:27:05 what* 11:27:08 that isn't right 11:28:06 !bc scale=30; 10/42 11:28:06 .238095238095238095238095238095 11:28:34 !bc scale=30; s(10/42) 11:28:35 Runtime error (func=(main), adr=18): Function s not defined. 11:28:42 !bc -l scale=30; s(10/42) 11:28:43 (standard_in) 1: syntax error 11:28:45 um 11:28:50 Well, I was thinking it would start something like >+++[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[[ 11:28:55 GregorR, you should load the math library with -l 11:29:19 !delinterp bc 11:29:20 Interpreter bc deleted. 11:29:23 !addinterp bc sh bc -l 11:29:24 Interpreter bc installed. 11:29:28 !bc scale=30; s(10/42) 11:29:29 .235852028768310500148768462188 11:29:32 !bc scale=3000; s(10/42) 11:29:36 As soon as the decoy gets cleared, it jumps immediately to the proper response after the matching ]. 11:29:38 hm 11:29:41 that takes a bit 11:29:44 !bc scale=300; s(10/42) 11:29:45 .2358520287683105001487684621888690261219855174394651629650889653465\ 11:30:02 why the line break there 11:30:12 Who knows :P 11:30:16 and I guess the 3000 decimals one isn't ready yet 11:30:26 GregorR, still I want dc ;/ 11:30:40 10 2 / p is so much easier to read than 10/2 11:30:47 Oh add it yourself. 11:30:58 Of course this assumes you can set up a decoy such that each combination of program, array length, and inversion zeroes it at a slightly different time. Which may not be possible. And of course after a while you suspect that you're dealing with a purely defensive program and then other steps would be required. 11:30:59 GregorR-L, you said it wasn't installed? 11:31:21 It wasn't, then I installed it and bc :P 11:31:25 ah 11:32:13 GregorR, how do the interpreter see end of input 11:32:23 EOF right? 11:32:27 Yes 11:32:27 nothing strange there? 11:32:33 No 11:32:34 !addinterp dc sh dc 11:32:34 Interpreter dc installed. 11:32:39 !dc 10 2 / p 11:32:40 5 11:32:43 !dc 10 42 / p 11:32:44 0 11:32:46 fff 11:32:49 :P 11:33:18 !dc 200 k 10 42 / p 11:33:19 .23809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523809523\ 11:33:20 -!- oerjan has quit ("Bus?"). 11:33:26 there we go 11:34:24 !dc 16o 16p 11:34:25 10 11:34:27 :) 11:34:38 GregorR-L, can you do that with bc at all? 11:35:03 (set output radix to 16, thus printing in hexdecimal) 11:35:13 Probably *shrugs* 11:35:57 !help 11:35:58 Supported commands: addinterp bf_txtgen bfjoust daemon daemons delinterp fyb help info kill mush userinterps 1l 2l adjust asm axo bc bch bct befunge befunge98 bf bf16 bf32 bf8 bfbignum boolfuck c chiqrsx9p choo cintercal clcintercal cxx dc dimensifuck echo forth glass glypho google gregor hello kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge num ook pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor rot13 sadol sceql sh show slashes test trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl yodaw 11:36:06 GregorR-L, you truncated yoda 11:36:08 ohh 11:36:28 when is the "speak like Yoda" day now again? 11:36:39 Hopefully never? :P 11:36:46 !yoda May the force be with you 11:36:50 meh 11:36:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:36:57 GregorR-L, pretty sure it exists 11:36:59 ais523, hi 11:37:17 GregorR, anyway you need to handle this truncation issue 11:37:48 Yeah, !help is too long and I'm not sure what I want to do about it >_> 11:37:58 hi AnMaster 11:38:09 GregorR-L: output more than one line, maybe? 11:38:19 Bleh, not for !help :( 11:38:23 GregorR, display something like "for listing userinterpreters use !whatever", for listing special commands use !whatever 11:38:27 well 11:38:31 use a different whatever of course 11:38:41 splitting it in logical sections 11:39:04 like addinterp daemon daemons delinterp help info kill show in one group 11:39:08 (possibly a few others too) 11:39:22 oh yes "userinterps" too 11:39:25 !help adjust 11:39:25 Sorry, I have no help for adjust! 11:39:28 !adjust what 11:39:34 what is adjust 11:39:40 A language, presumably. 11:39:40 GregorR, ^ 11:39:42 ah 11:39:54 GregorR, anyway what do you think about the split group thingy? 11:40:30 With its current form that would be a GIANT pita. 11:40:36 ehird, when you get here: you might be interested in the discussion here: http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/05/31/187208/VHDL-or-Verilog-For-Learning-FPGAs?from=rss 11:40:39 However, it's probably the best idea :( 11:40:44 Since a lot of these programs have deletion loops ending in ]], there isn't a way to break out of them by setting one's flag to 0 for only one turn, after the loop has been entered. So instead the solution is presumably to keep it in the deletion loop longer by pushing the thing past 0 every time it zeroes it, and in between, going on and working on reducing the enemy flag. 11:40:56 adjust is an esolang, I think 11:41:00 dbc: yes 11:41:06 either that, or turning the flag the other way faster 11:41:11 that's how all my defend-number programs work 11:41:24 GregorR, !bfjoust should clearly not be in same group as for example !daemon. Since !daemon is one of those "meta" commands 11:41:45 GregorR, from a user viewpoint they are rather different 11:41:46 also, dbc, if you are who I think you are, it's an honour to have you in this channel 11:42:00 who would dbc bd? 11:42:01 be* 11:42:32 AnMaster: Daniel B Cristofani, one of the world's best Brainfuck programmers 11:42:40 Wouldn't that be less efficient? I'm thinking IF you actually have the other program identified, then you only need to spend one or two cycles of 256 foiling attempts to zero your flag, and the rest can be used to clear out the other flag? 11:42:44 where did I see that name recently... 11:42:44 Yeah, that's me. Thank you. 11:42:58 oh yes. in the semi-optimised output of LostKing... 11:43:02 dbc: if you have the opponent identified, efficiency doesn't matter any more 11:43:05 (in the compiler I'm working on) 11:43:18 and if you don't, reversing the direction sometimes works even if you're approximately right 11:43:36 also, it's very hard to tell loops that work like [---++] from loops that work like [....+] with BF-style observations 11:43:42 Yeah, you're right. Premature optimization etc. 11:43:45 the first probably needs several cycles foiling attempts to zero 11:43:50 [If you want to identify opponents, you should be playing FYB instead of BF Joust :P ] 11:44:33 os("\n Daniel B Cristofani (http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/)\n Jeffry Johnston (http://lilly.csoft.net/~jeffryj/)\n Ian Haberkorn (No web site)\n Javri aka Katzy (http://www.nostalgia8.org)\n\nExtra credit goes to:\n Daniel without whom this project would have been so much poorer\n Jeffry without whom this project would not have been possible\n"); 11:44:34 indeed 11:45:13 ais523, also I know that lostkingdom contains an easter egg, I don't know what it is though...: 11:45:15 os("\n\nYou have activated the easter egg"); 11:45:28 * GregorR-L goes back to zleeeep. 11:45:37 AnMaster: you have LostKng's original source? 11:45:37 GregorR-L, fixed help yet? ;P 11:45:52 ais523, ... no that is from my optimised compiled C program of lostking 11:45:57 ah 11:46:02 The approach I was thinking of, which is of course useless against any new program, is to identify the program and length solely by the exact number of cycles before it zeroes your decoy. 11:46:03 ais523, I constant fold output as you know 11:46:21 dbc: with random tape length, you'd need to be a bit more clever than that 11:46:29 (or with check-all-tape-lengrhs) 11:46:31 AnMaster: yes, I know 11:46:37 I was thinking check-all. 11:46:51 some programs look identical to such analyses, though 11:47:05 e.g. defend6/7/9 will never zero your decoy at all 11:47:21 nor would vibration_fool_faster or jump2, although they've fallen off the hill 11:47:35 and many attack programs will start much the same way, so they'd be hard to tell apart 11:47:47 Yeah...after a certain time you know it's a defensive one and then you do have to do some other check. But then you have time to do so. 11:47:49 (actually, vibration_fool_faster did zero eventually, but after about 10000 cycles) 11:48:43 !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*5000[[[>[---]+]+]+] 11:48:49 * ais523 wonders how it would do on the present hill 11:48:51 Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 12.2 11:48:59 and the answer is "not very well" 11:49:03 heh 11:49:08 how times change 11:49:45 !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127(-+)*50000 11:49:49 wait, that isn't vff 11:49:51 just vibration 11:50:02 Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 10.6 11:50:19 strangely, no draws 11:50:25 !bfjoust vibration_fool_faster >>>++++<----<++++<(-)*127.(-+)*50000 11:50:35 if that's different, I think I hit a bug in egojoust 11:50:40 Score for ais523_vibration_fool_faster: 11.3 11:50:42 or maybe not 11:50:54 heh, loads of draws now 11:51:06 egojoust must count a program as losing if it times out with its flag on 0 11:51:34 !bfjoust fool_faster >>>>>>>>>+[[[>[---]+]+]+]+[[[>[---]+]+]+] 11:51:41 Score for ais523_fool_faster: 4.2 11:51:49 yay, that was rubbish 11:52:57 !bfjoust speedy19 (>)*15([(+)*19[-]]>)*14[[-]][[-]] 11:53:05 Score for ais523_speedy19: 11.7 11:53:30 still last, and it loses to the programs it's meant to beat... 11:53:51 !bfjoust speedy19 (>)*10([(+)*19[-]]>)*19[[-]][[-]] 11:53:58 Score for ais523_speedy19: 20.8 11:54:17 ah, better 11:58:59 still not /good/, but I like to have a few speedies up there to get rid of the really slow programs 12:14:43 -!- MizardX has quit ("Dead pixels in the sky."). 12:22:08 p[-1]+=1; 12:22:08 (other code, not using p[-1]) 12:22:10 p[-1]+=255; 12:22:13 ais523, ^ 12:22:16 from lostkingdom 12:22:25 AnMaster: a bug in in-between? 12:22:32 does p change in between? 12:22:38 ais523, it doesn't 12:22:45 possibly the use of p[-1] has been optimised out there 12:22:58 do you keep rerunning your optimisation templates until none of them match/ 12:23:02 that's what I do in OIL 12:23:02 since there were some loops -> polynomial conversion 12:23:13 ais523, I keep rerunning all the passes until the tree doesn't change any more 12:23:19 ais523, since not all passes are simple matches 12:23:25 like for example the constant propagator 12:23:26 ok 12:23:39 well, in C-INTERCAL I do constant propagation by pattern matching 12:23:46 anyway I optimise away those two p[-1] accesses now 12:23:59 ais523, well constant/copy propagation 12:24:10 p[0]=p[2]; 12:24:17 p[1]=p[0]; 12:24:23 I propagate that copy there 12:24:25 so it ends up as 12:24:28 p[0]=p[2]; 12:24:30 p[1]=p[2]; 12:25:31 ais523, anyway it is done by building a dict with offset as key as I go along. I plan a pass that converts things to dependency graphs and then re-serialises stuff back to the parse tree at the end. 12:25:48 this would allow me to do some stuff that is infeasible currently 12:26:29 ais523, anyway currently I'm working on making the shifter handle polynomials fully. So it can sort other instructions relative them. 12:26:44 well, I'd better go off to an exam 12:26:47 cya 12:26:52 so bye for now, I'll be back later 12:26:53 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:27:10 btw, that p[-1] pattern happens quite a few times in lostking 12:27:31 always in code related to output long descriptions it seems 12:45:46 Rewriting a compiler for a BFBasic subset that will cut lostkingdom's length dramatically has been on my to-do list for years. I'm a big procrastinator. 12:46:14 dbc, you have the original source? 12:46:17 mhm 12:47:42 Probably somewhere. 12:47:58 The current lostkingdom in bf contains some dead loops btw. 12:48:06 Not surprised. 12:48:10 heh 12:48:52 I was guessing I could cut the length in half, at least. 12:49:06 it is however rather easy to optimise it, while something like that mandelbrot.b program (hand written iirc) is a lot harder to optimise. 12:49:32 every [-] is gold worth for an optimising BF->anything compiler ;P 12:51:19 AnMaster: what target are you considering for "anything"? ;) 12:51:36 lifthrasiir, anything but outputting again to bf? ;P 12:51:46 haha 12:51:56 bf-to-bf optimiser could do a lot of stuff on lostkingdom though... 12:52:37 dbc, any idea why LostKng.b starts with this rather silly BF code: [-][.] 12:52:41 :) 12:53:01 it it some sort of sanity test for the compiler/interpreter? 12:53:43 Maybe it's meant to say "This code produced with BFBASIC" :) 12:53:59 oh hm 12:55:00 it would be interesting to get character frequency for lostking. I suspect that < and > would be the most common ones... 12:56:27 (while read -r -n 1 ch; do echo $ch; done < examples/LostKng.b) | sort -n | uniq -c 12:56:29 * AnMaster waits 12:56:42 far from the fastest way to do it... 12:57:53 http://pastebin.ca/1443451 12:57:55 are the results 12:58:01 not sure why there is a @ there... 12:58:11 and those blanks are probably newlines 12:58:56 oh and interesting. Overall the program is balanced it seemd 12:58:57 seems* 12:59:30 (not in any useful for optimising sense) 12:59:48 In what sense then? 13:00:01 same number of > and < in the program 13:00:18 Okay. Are there the same number of > and < within matched [] also? 13:00:23 no 13:00:28 Didn't think so. 13:00:31 which is why it isn't useful to optimising :P 13:00:32 That'd be odd. 13:00:50 dbc, a bit odd that the total count match up still... 13:02:10 Not that odd. The more straightforward things to navigate variable-sized data structures tend to balance, and then if BFBASIC decided to leave the pointer back at point 0 for some reason...which wouldn't be that surprising, though useless... 13:02:39 as far as I can tell there are no dead <<<<< at the end of the program 13:02:58 well, maybe there is, but not easily detectable from a quick glance 13:04:06 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:04:22 Maybe they're not totally dead. I don't remember how the whole goto thing was implemented but maybe it actually looks at cell 0. 13:05:47 ah 13:06:11 dbc, have you seen that gcc-bf thing ais523 is working on? BF backend for GCC. 13:06:23 I haven't. 13:06:24 don't think it is uploaded anywhere atm (due to hosting issues) 13:06:33 but it produces even more verbose code. 13:06:40 for a simple hello world 13:07:16 (due to stdio brining in atexit, which used malloc iirc) 13:08:07 in a special run length encoding of bf, it is 434K. I haven't seen it fully expanded... Don't think it would be a good idea to try to fully expand it :D 13:08:37 :) 13:09:36 dbc, http://rage.kuonet.org/~anmaster/hworld1.bfrle 13:09:44 Like Von Neumann's self-reproducing automaton, or the number that's the subject of Gödel's theorem, or... :) 13:09:48 AnMaster: that's not a good idea, look at this: 13:09:49 (code starts here) 13:09:49 <*12897+*7 13:09:51 ;) 13:09:52 *44 means "the previous instruction 44 times 13:10:00 lifthrasiir, yeah indeed 13:10:11 the code before that is just setup of tape 13:10:19 to set every third cell to 1 13:10:21 and some other stuff 13:12:02 lifthrasiir, I wonder what "(%999999999 Assertion error)" is there for 13:12:42 lifthrasiir, hm... >*393216 13:12:50 heck, 13:13:03 so it contains the whole C standard library? 13:13:09 lifthrasiir, not the whole 13:13:11 just some modules 13:13:16 stdio, atexit, malloc 13:13:21 necessary one, of course. 13:13:47 that could be debated 13:14:21 >*12883[-<*12889+>*6+>*12883] <*12883[->*12883+<*12883] >*12889 13:14:22 wow 13:14:31 ha, 13:14:54 lifthrasiir, it isn't hot on locality of reference I guess ;P 13:15:31 i discovered this source code while uncovering old hard disk: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/ws/raw-file/51fb8e8aed54/esotope-ws 13:15:43 hell, why did i write that code? -_- 13:16:05 lifthrasiir, and why in that shape? 13:16:21 lifthrasiir, those are some HUGE eyebrows? 13:16:40 or are they antennas? 13:16:49 AnMaster: that's Tsukamoto Tenma, some random female anime character. 13:16:54 mhm 13:17:08 lifthrasiir, is that really valid python? 13:17:12 yes! 13:17:20 lifthrasiir, what about indention... 13:17:27 the whole source code is in the single, concatenated line. 13:17:41 you unpack it somehow? 13:17:45 yes 13:18:01 anyway i cannot understand me 5 years ago still... maybe i had too much spare time. 13:31:32 -!- Corun has joined. 13:47:01 -!- nooga has quit. 14:09:34 lifthrasiir, do you think it is a good idea to unroll ALL repeat loops? 14:09:52 currently I only do it for ones containing only set, add and such 14:09:54 AnMaster: all? 14:10:15 lifthrasiir, repeat loops in mode code are loops with known iteration count, and known balanced. 14:10:22 i think it should unroll MORE loops than now, but not ALL. 14:10:23 s/mode/my 14:10:41 lifthrasiir, which ones shouldn't be unrolled then? 14:11:32 AnMaster: i'm not sure; but if the unrolling requires a solution of linear recurrence equation, it would go certainly wrong. 14:11:46 lifthrasiir, hum? 14:12:09 (for example, some loop can try to generate 1000th fibonacci number.) 14:12:43 AnMaster: int i; for (i = 0; i < 1000; ++i) { p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; } to name a few. 14:12:50 lifthrasiir, Since iteration count is constant, repeat loop is balanced, and unrolling means "duplicate body of loop iteration count times, then insert" it wouldn't generate broken code. 14:13:05 lifthrasiir, so an upper limit on iteration count rather? 14:13:12 if so, what limit 14:13:19 hmmm... 14:14:31 i think that if there is no code optimized via unrolling, do not unroll. 14:14:33 lifthrasiir, also, if it only contains sets and adds (but no copies or set_from), unrolling it always will be a gain. Since those will constant fold to pretty much the length of the loop body soon after. 14:14:57 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:15:03 lifthrasiir, I wouldn't know that until much later 14:15:11 I mean, for comparing "did I gain something" 14:34:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 14:34:29 If the loop end condition is trivial enough then you can always gain because you can get rid of the branch instruction in between each run of the loop 14:38:01 when is the "speak like Yoda" day now again? 14:38:04 May 21 14:38:16 so mercifully avoid it, you did 14:38:45 http://www.talklikeyoda.com/ 14:39:18 * oerjan is surprised it is not Like Yoda Talk Day. or something. 14:39:25 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:40:36 oerjan, good point! 14:41:12 although i recall reading somewhere that yoda actually only mangled a small fraction of his sentences. 14:45:02 !show help 14:45:03 That is not a user interpreter! 14:45:56 lifthrasiir, btw I solved that "back end independent output while retaining abstraction bit" for polynomials by a fold-like function 14:46:22 that takes a fun and gives it a stream of tokens. 14:46:39 it is "not really fold, but I can't find a good name for it" 14:46:59 lifthrasiir, how did you solve it for your expressions? 14:47:26 (full expressions are a lot messier to work with than simple polynomials..) 15:04:33 AnMaster: not yet. maybe i'll add some visitor later. 15:04:43 lifthrasiir, hm I called mine "walker" 15:04:59 can't see the logic behind the name visitor 15:07:44 AnMaster: essentially same, but not implemented yet 15:08:07 and i think the name visitor is more popular in java, due to its use in visitor pattern 15:08:31 (disclaimer: i don't like patterns in java, and don't like java mostly 15:09:10 * AnMaster tries to work out why this didn't swap: p[1]+=255; o(-42); 15:09:29 there is no dependency between changing offset 1 and outputting offset -42... 15:12:00 lifthrasiir, and I'm not sure what I'm doing is a "design pattern"... 15:12:06 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:12:25 just common idiom for functional languages... Which I guess boils down to something similar... 15:12:36 Hi :-) 15:13:12 I've been camping for three days. Any new techniques for BF Joust while I've been gone? Or more of the same? 15:13:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:15:14 AnMaster: int i; for (i = 0; i < 1000; ++i) { p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; } to name a few. 15:15:33 that would be nicely optimizable with some matrix multiplication, i think :D 15:15:43 oerjan, I see. 15:15:54 oerjan, tell me more? 15:15:55 ;P 15:16:07 oerjan, what would the output code be 15:16:25 AnMaster: each iteration is essentially multiplying the vector (p[3], p[4], p[5]) by a matrix 15:16:32 oerjan, oh? 15:16:39 lessee 15:16:47 oerjan, tell me what the generated C code would be 15:17:16 AnMaster: the matrix power could be constant folded 15:17:53 so something of the form 15:18:49 p3 = M33*p[3]+M34*p[4]+M35*p[5]; p4 = ...; p5 = ...; p[3] = p3; p[4] = p4; p[5] = p5 15:19:04 anyway I would constant fold that if I unrolled it anyway. 15:19:10 where the M33 - M55 constants all are 0..255, in modulo arithmetic 15:19:24 for two iterations: p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; p[3] = p[5]; p[5] += p[4]; p[4] = p[3]; would turn into... 15:19:35 AnMaster: indeed, but exponentiation can be done faster than iterated multiplication 15:19:50 so you would get the same result but faster 15:20:08 oerjan, mhm 15:20:33 because you can calculate M^2, M^4, ..., M^512 matrices and then multiply those 15:20:39 heh 15:20:48 oerjan, well, my compiler is slow enough anyway ;P 15:21:03 -!- impomatic has left (?). 15:22:09 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:25:28 today's IWC seems fine... 15:26:58 also, it seems like the universe might be settling down again after the recreation... 15:28:05 to the degree that having balrogs running around can be considered "settling down" 15:28:34 oerjan, indeed 15:28:39 and I read it a few hours ago 15:28:48 naturally 15:30:22 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:30:45 hm, Lightning Made of Owls has _not_ updated... 15:30:52 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 15:31:04 AnMaster: all just couldn't be right, could it 15:31:28 oerjan, I don't real that one 15:31:45 ic 15:31:47 read* 15:31:50 so I didn't notice it 15:33:44 square root of minus garfield contains a math error today... 15:34:00 the title doesn't match the description, because of misplaced parenthesis. 15:34:15 indeed 15:34:43 should be (Minus (Garfield Squared)) 15:35:01 yes 15:36:02 oerjan, odd no one has done anything based on that NESfield thingy 15:36:11 I would like to see some more of that 15:36:21 now what was that again 15:36:30 see the archive and look for NESfield 15:37:17 -!- MizardX has joined. 15:37:54 the license on that one is rather dubious... 15:38:53 it's not an actual parody, just sprites presented for later parody, and they are presumably all copyrighted 15:39:42 although an _actual_ parody based on those might be fine 15:40:44 hm i guess the license doesn't apply anyway since it says "original aspects" 15:43:54 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 15:49:43 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:02:02 -!- Hiato has joined. 16:04:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 16:05:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:06:24 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:15:39 hi ais523 16:15:46 hi 16:18:02 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:19:38 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:23:01 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:26:25 ais523, I'm reworking option handling. Now it shouldn't be as hard to run in_between on gccbfrle 16:26:36 still not easy but working on that 16:26:40 ok 16:36:46 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:39:32 is the genome just a bad, ad-hoc, genetically evolved programming language? :) 16:39:40 01:27 psygnisfive: man. ehird needs to get fucked ← legal issues there 16:41:37 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 16:44:04 -!- darthnuri has quit (Connection timed out). 16:45:19 ehird: Well, yes. 16:49:15 10:25 AnMaster: GregorR, what about dc... it is a lot easier to use than bc ← you're joking 16:49:25 10:25 dbc: Has anyone done a program that would try seriously to recognize the opposing program? And briefly set its own flag to 0 just long enough to trick the opponent into stepping out of the array? ←yes 16:49:27 ehird, I'm not 16:49:49 !dc 200k 1 3/P 16:49:59 !dc 200k 1 3 / p 16:50:00 .33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333\ 16:50:01 hm 16:50:03 ehird: You just need to use an HP calculator. 16:50:05 ;) 16:50:10 tthat seems buggy! 16:50:13 !dc 20k 1 3 / p 16:50:13 .33333333333333333333 16:50:16 !dc 20k 1 3 /P 16:50:18 !dc 20k 1 3 / P 16:50:30 P != p... 16:50:33 ah indeed 16:50:54 yes 16:50:55 P doesn't print a newline. 16:50:57 10:41 ais523: also, dbc, if you are who I think you are, it's an honour to have you in this channel ← he's been in here for years constantly 16:51:03 pikhq, also doesn't it print as ascii? 16:51:18 !dc 10 98 P P 16:51:18 b 16:51:20 yes 16:52:06 Hmm. 16:53:39 12:15 lifthrasiir: i discovered this source code while uncovering old hard disk: http://hg.mearie.org/esotope/ws/raw-file/51fb8e8aed54/esotope-ws ← i am sure I have seen this before 16:53:46 or maybe just something similar 16:54:44 14:12 AnMaster: just common idiom for functional languages... Which I guess boils down to something similar... 16:54:47 idiom=design pattern 16:55:17 ehird, sure. But "design pattern" sounds like some enterprisy OOP thing... :P 16:55:55 that's because it is 16:56:18 AnMaster: although it's more like design pattern subset-of idioms 16:56:30 My computer has been in here for years constantly. I've been here only intermittently. :) 16:56:31 ehird, oh? 16:56:37 it didn't become as ridiculous until recently btw. ward cunningham and martin fowler have done non-crackhead design patterns stuff 16:56:51 AnMaster: In software engineering, a design pattern is a general reusable solution to a commonly occurring problem in software design. A design pattern is not a finished design that can be transformed directly into code. It is a description or template for how to solve a problem that can be used in many different situations. Object-oriented design patterns typically show relationships and interactions between classes or objects, without specifying the fi 16:56:54 nal application classes or objects that are involved. 16:56:58 idioms are patterns in the language code itself 16:57:04 design patterns are patterns in how the code operates 16:57:08 hm 16:57:24 ehird, they partly overlap 16:57:29 yes 16:57:31 but != 16:58:25 16:56 dbc: My computer has been in here for years constantly. I've been here only intermittently. :) ← computer, you, what's the difference 16:58:36 s/ / / god I'm paranoid about whitespace 16:58:59 ehird, where was that extra whitespace? 16:58:59 ais523: that slashdot story has emacs as a tag 16:59:02 ridiculous 16:59:03 AnMaster: before ← 16:59:06 ah 16:59:25 * ais523 wonders whether to remove defend6 from the rankings 16:59:25 (because it's almost the same as defend7) 16:59:28 "Or is this an eternal, undecidable holy-war question along the lines of ATI/nVidia, AMD/Intel, Coke/Pepsi" 16:59:34 he managed to put all the correct ones second 16:59:35 impressive 16:59:45 ehird: well, Emacs is one of the only sane ways to edit VHDL 16:59:48 which one? 16:59:49 ehird, when you get here: you might be interested in the discussion here: http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/05/31/187208/VHDL-or-Verilog-For-Learning-FPGAs?from=rss 16:59:50 ? 16:59:50 because VHDL has so much boilerplate 16:59:53 AnMaster: yes 16:59:59 Emacs' VHDL-mode fills the boilerplate in for you 17:00:02 ais523: i think i prefer verilog 17:00:04 for some reason that link says "connection reset by server" when I try it 17:00:08 that's a language you hack on in vi 17:00:11 (real vi) 17:00:12 Kinda like its RPM-mode? 17:00:28 $ curl 'http://ask.slashdot.org/story/09/05/31/187208/VHDL-or-Verilog-For-Learning-FPGAs?from=rss' 17:00:28 curl: (56) Failure when receiving data from the peer 17:00:29 that too 17:00:30 ehird: the difference to me seems to be that VHDL is very strict and quadruple-checky, Verilog hand-waves if you write something nonsensical 17:00:31 ehird: Real men use ed. 17:00:31 wth? 17:00:40 And implement Vi in it. 17:00:47 the main slashdot works 17:01:05 so does http://ask.slashdot.org/ 17:01:15 just not that full link, or clicking on the article 17:01:16 -!- inurinternet has joined. 17:01:20 ais523: /me mumbles something about real men 17:01:21 anyone has any idea why? 17:01:24 ais523, ehird ^ 17:01:26 AnMaster: Slashdot has gone all Web 2.0 Javascript 17:01:29 AnMaster: your internet sux 17:01:32 although the fallback to pure HTML mostly works 17:01:35 ais523: ridiculous excuse 17:01:37 his internet always breaks 17:01:39 especially dns 17:01:43 ehird, dns isn't broken here 17:01:44 pikhq: http://imgur.com/zhnig.png 17:01:47 read what I said 17:01:48 duh 17:01:55 the pinnacle of rendering of the pinnacle of diacritics technology 17:01:56 AnMaster: I know that 17:02:00 AnMaster: I'm saying that your DNS breaks often 17:02:07 ehird, dns only broke twice or so the last year 17:02:10 I guess that is often 17:02:17 Well, whatever; you often say links don't work for you. 17:02:21 ehird, for lycos.fr in both cases 17:02:29 ehird, sure. But mostly not due to dns 17:02:36 seemed like it 17:03:23 ehird: Minor failure. 17:03:25 http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/05/31/187208 <-- that link works for the same thing 17:03:34 so I guess what ais523 said was the issue 17:03:36 ehird: ı should be centered. :p 17:03:43 pikhq: Wut 17:03:45 Ah 17:03:49 pikhq: That's a font issue 17:03:54 I can render it in Helvetica if you want 17:04:02 Yuh. 17:05:00 pikhq: if I do it on one line, it's three dots, bar, circle. If I had more newlines before, more stuff appears 17:05:10 Huh. 17:05:34 pikhq: http://imgur.com/iMicG.png 17:05:39 Enjoy with a 100dpi LCD display. 17:05:43 ais523, so which is best, verilog or vhdl? 17:05:52 AnMaster: which is best, C or Erlang? 17:05:56 Looks about right. 17:05:57 :D 17:06:05 ehird, ah, is it that type of question 17:06:21 rather than "which is best, C or C++" 17:06:21 VHDL if you want to be damn sure nothing went wrong at all 17:06:25 verilog if you actually want to get shit done 17:06:26 I assume 17:06:31 AnMaster: but most likely? 17:06:37 hm? 17:06:39 AnMaster: Whatever your institute has an okay compiler for. 17:06:44 hah 17:06:49 Unless you're rich and can afford one yourself. 17:08:27 Ooh. 17:08:33 A resolution with exactly 120 dpi at 12". 17:08:37 1152x864 17:09:09 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:09:28 ehird, 12" makes me think more in the terms of "800x600" 17:09:35 AnMaster: Laptop. 17:09:38 (which my old first model ibook was) 17:09:39 ehird, yes 17:09:51 AnMaster: Yes, well, 800x600 is kind of unusable. 17:10:04 ehird, my ibook was iirc 12" (or 12.5"?) and resolution was 800x600 17:10:07 this was back in 2001 or so 17:10:11 in 2001? 17:10:13 that's a bit small for 2001. 17:10:17 ehird, 2000? 2001? 17:10:18 AnMaster: so, OS X then? 17:10:20 something like that 17:10:23 OS X isn't happy with 800x600, really 17:10:24 ehird, um. It was OS 9 17:10:27 wait 17:10:27 AnMaster: ah 17:10:28 OS 8 17:10:29 even 17:10:30 duh 17:10:35 ehird, OS X didn't exist back then 17:10:38 AnMaster: err 17:10:40 it was 8.1 17:10:40 os x came out in 2001. 17:10:44 public beta in 2000 17:10:49 if you bought an ibook in 2000, it was os 9. 17:10:57 i'll look it up on infallopedia, anyway 17:11:19 ehird, it might have been late 1999 even. Depends on when the first ibook was released. 17:11:28 jul 21 99 17:11:29 since it was pretty soon after the first one was released 17:11:32 discontinued may 1 01 17:11:35 a few months iirc 17:11:44 ehird, then probably late 1999 or early 2000 17:11:48 AnMaster: mac os 9 = oct 23 99 17:11:53 so you almost certainly had os 9... 17:12:05 ehird, I have the CD here... says 8.5 on it 17:12:09 Weird 17:12:13 Must be an old one that wasn't sold 17:12:46 wait, that is the wrong computer. The ibook one is 8.6 in fact. the 8.5 cd is from another old mac 17:12:48 sorry 17:12:53 oh, 1152x864 is a great resolution 17:16:18 Guys. Scientific facts. 17:17:35 * AnMaster gets nostalgic and boots the old ibook 17:17:44 I hope it still works... 17:17:46 well 17:17:48 AnMaster? Liking some sort of mac? 17:17:49 for some values of work 17:17:50 Unpossible! 17:17:59 ehird, 3.4 GB harddrive 17:18:00 err 17:18:01 3.2 17:18:01 even 17:18:15 I believe I went something → 10GB → 80GB 17:18:21 and glitches in power connector, dead battery 17:18:27 (→ 500GB although that was just for media, w/ 80GB for OS) 17:18:34 (→ 160GB in imac) 17:18:38 so "very still tabletop" nowdays 17:18:40 (TIME MACHINE WHOOSH → 160GB/1TB) 17:18:45 ehird, 32 MB RAM! 17:18:45 wait, no, this HD is 230GB 17:18:46 or sth 17:19:04 happy mac displayed 17:19:05 AnMaster: i'd like to see that try and boot os x 17:19:15 ehird, I don't have any OS X CD 17:19:26 i do :-P 17:19:31 ehird, and it could probably boot OS X 10.0 or so 17:19:35 MAYBE 10.1 17:19:36 anyway 17:19:42 not a lot :P 17:19:55 AnMaster: what processor is it? 17:20:10 ehird, G3... let me wait for it to boot so I can check details 17:20:26 i had a g3 imac for a few days (i broke the optical drive so it won't boot an install cd and had previously fucked up the OS on it, kekekeke) 17:20:32 233mhz proc or something 17:20:32 ibook I said 17:20:37 16MB of ram or something? 17:20:46 hm 17:20:46 the hd was upgraded to 4gb i think 17:20:53 seems clock battery is dead 17:20:54 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 17:21:04 it complains clock is at 1904 17:21:17 also it is fucking loud 17:21:21 AnMaster: is it? 17:21:25 sounds like the harddrive is half dead 17:21:26 I guess 17:21:29 i can't think of laptops as loud they're so small :D 17:21:40 AnMaster: I have an old beige powermac running os 8 or 9 in the corner collecting dust 17:21:42 god that thing's loud 17:21:44 you can't hear yourself think 17:21:46 ehird, very loud and high pitched 17:21:57 ehird, same for this 17:22:01 it used to be much quietet 17:22:05 quieter 17:22:12 so probably something half-broken 17:22:24 ehird, 300 MHz 17:22:33 just checked in "Apple Systeminformation" 17:23:10 i should wire up my power mac and g3 17:23:18 and get back that really old ~486 i had 17:23:23 and put plan9 on them 17:23:26 DISTRIBUTED COMPUTATION NETWORK 17:23:32 ethernet connected 17:23:34 yep 17:23:36 lets see what happen 17:23:39 happens* 17:23:40 that's how you do a plan 9 cpu server 17:23:42 hrrm. Not a lot 17:23:59 AnMaster: ? 17:24:08 ooh it got an IP finally 17:24:10 that was slow 17:24:12 oh 17:24:14 I thougth you meant 17:24:20 connect my machines with ethernet 17:24:20 heh 17:24:28 ehird, this won't work when everything goes IPv6 in 2050 or so :P 17:24:28 AnMaster: does it have IE or netscape? 17:24:36 ehird, IE 5 probably 17:24:43 IE 5 for the mac was sort of okay 17:24:45 ehird, I upgraded it to OS 9 later. 17:24:49 separate codebase from windows ie 17:24:54 it is 9.1 now 17:25:35 ehird, IE 5.1 17:25:50 ehird: Yeah. It actually had rendering vaguely close to that specified by the standard. 17:26:03 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IMac_G3_flavors.jpg ← Flower Power is totally trippy. 17:26:08 And ah, Plan9. 17:26:21 If I was gonna buy an old imac way back then I'd have got a graphite or snow one since I'm soooooooo boring 17:28:44 ehird, I think this *ibook* is "bondi blue" 17:29:15 ehird, this colouring: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IBook_redjar.jpg 17:29:20 and model 17:29:36 yeh 17:30:29 ehird, ah yes it is the harddrive that is making the sound 17:30:38 KRRRRRRRR KRRRRRRRRRRRRRR 17:30:39 since it just put the harddrive into sleep it stopped the sound 17:30:49 ehird, no, more like: 17:30:51 I AM AN UNRELIABLE, SLOW DISK HERE ME ROAR 17:30:52 WHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIME 17:30:55 NE* 17:31:09 constantly 17:31:31 ais523: 17:31:38 If you are pro-letting-society-kill-babies-without-lying-about-it-for-the-greater-good then you are in my camp, welcome. 17:31:39 err 17:31:41 wrong quote 17:31:43 (from reddit troll) 17:31:46 what I meant to paste was: 17:31:48 Part of the reason is that Verilog, being much like C, is inherently procedural. You don't want to think procedurally with digital logic except for the specific case of state machine design, and even then you have to take into account concurrency. It is this fundamental aspect of concurrency in HDLs that is key to being able to design effectively. 17:31:51 ais523: is this true? 17:32:14 VHDL/Verilog must not be written in a procedural way for actually generating code 17:32:26 Verilog was originally designed for verification, where procedural code is fine 17:32:29 wat 17:32:41 but for synthesizing/compiling rather than verifying, writing in a procedural way will give you a mess 17:32:53 the only procedural structures that work are if and for, and they're both unrolled 17:33:43 ais523, "verifying" how? 17:34:06 AnMaster: Verilog was originally designed for writing testsuites for hardware circuitry 17:34:13 whereas VHDL was designed for generating it 17:34:20 although they've both stolen all the features of the other 17:34:24 so nowadays, either can do either 17:34:26 -!- trainman419 has joined. 17:34:30 ais523, ok... how would verilog for testing vhdl generated hardware work? 17:34:33 or what do you mean 17:34:44 AnMaster: you can use VHDL/Verilog to describe how hardware behaves 17:34:49 AnMaster: Verilog for testing hardware. In general. 17:35:01 most high-end synthesis tools will produce a Verilog/VHDL version of the hardware they've produced 17:35:03 hm 17:35:08 (yes, this involves compiling VHDL to VHDL sometimes) 17:35:10 ah 17:35:19 so then you can run that in a simulator to test it? 17:35:20 I see 17:35:29 yes, and the simulator would also be written in VHDL/Verilog 17:35:40 ais523, I thought you meant "using verilog for generating hardware that test other hardware" 17:35:43 or something like that 17:35:43 or nowadays, possibly SystemC, which is simulation only 17:35:55 although, the simulator uses different parts of the language 17:35:57 yes, and the simulator would also be written in VHDL/Verilog <-- err? 17:36:03 okay... 17:36:07 AnMaster: suppose you want to simulate VHDL code 17:36:11 yes 17:36:13 you write a testbench in VHDL 17:36:19 and simulate the testbench + code combination 17:36:27 the testbench can even throw errors when unexpected things happen 17:36:27 a self-interpreter? 17:36:30 and pipe output to a file 17:36:33 no, not a self-interp 17:36:35 more like yuk 17:36:37 it links into the program 17:36:52 ais523, ok. So what bit runs the othermore simulator layer? 17:36:56 outermost* 17:37:08 you compile or interpret the VHDL 17:37:16 so either you compile it and run the machine code, that's simulation 17:37:18 YO DAWG 17:37:23 or you interpret the VHDL, that's simulation 17:37:26 I herd u liek testing hardware 17:37:33 so I put a simulator in your hardware language 17:37:37 so you can simulate while you simulate 17:37:40 * ehird bows 17:37:44 VHDL is incredibly yo dawg, yes 17:37:58 it's not unknown to have five versions of the same program, all written in VHDL 17:38:03 where the first was compiled into the second by hand 17:38:04 ais523, ah 17:38:11 which was compiled into the third/fourth/fifth automatically 17:38:15 Emacs' viper-mode is very weird. 17:38:24 pikhq: it's kind of rubbish 17:38:26 pikhq, Why are you using it? 17:38:30 it just steals a few basic key combinations 17:38:34 not the essence of vi 17:38:36 which is the important bit 17:38:37 It's like: I herd u liek editing so I put an editor in your editor so you can edit while you edit. 17:38:43 although the former follows the latter naturally 17:38:47 AnMaster: What, you think I'd *use* it? 17:38:50 the fifth version would be a very low-level description of the hardware that would be produced 17:38:53 with timing, and everything 17:39:10 pikhq, I assumed you tried it since you were commenting on it... 17:39:14 Honestly, if I'm going to use a Vi-like, I'll just start up Vim. 17:39:22 Just saying it's very weird. 17:39:36 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:39:42 ... Start up Vim in terminal-mode. :p 17:40:13 well, viper is Emacs advantages (modes, etc), with vi's controls 17:40:37 ais523: The two don't integrate very well. 17:40:50 That, and they're vi's, not vim's. 17:40:58 yes 17:42:12 17:39 AnMaster: pikhq, I assumed you tried it since you were commenting on it... 17:42:16 i mentioned yo dawg, so. 17:42:28 17:40 ais523: well, viper is Emacs advantages (modes, etc), with vi's controls ← but vi's controls aren't important to the philosophy! 17:42:36 yes, I know 17:42:36 if you start with vi's philosophy, you'll derive vi's controls 17:42:42 viper-mode is Emacs' philosophy, but vi's controls 17:42:42 but not the other way around 17:42:45 ehird, " i mentioned yo dawg, so." <-- was that directed to me? If so what do you mean. 17:42:47 probably that's why it hasn't caught on 17:42:49 ais523: yes, but nobody wants that! 17:42:56 AnMaster: pikhq said viper was yo-dawg 17:42:59 after me saying something else was 17:43:03 i'm assuming that's why 17:44:00 Sane assumption. 17:53:45 interesting fact about this ibook... 17:54:02 when you are downloading something, don't do anything else... even moving the mouse slows down the download 17:54:18 by about 10 kbps 17:54:24 AnMaster: is it a network mouse? 17:54:30 (from 141 to 131 kbps) 17:54:36 ais523, touch pad 17:54:41 and no 17:54:54 * ais523 is not entirely sure network mice exist 17:55:03 although I wouldn't be surprised if someone had invented them by now 17:55:05 ais523, I never heard of it before 17:55:28 ais523, network keyboard? 17:55:34 hahaha, someone on a torrent site comments thing on a comment told someone obviously using a mac to delete hal.dll (vital windows dll) 17:55:37 trolling fail 17:56:05 strange, hal is quite an important component of Linux too 17:56:08 naming coincidence? 17:56:10 yes 17:56:11 (it wouldn't be a dll in Windows) 17:56:13 i think 17:56:14 *Linux 17:56:26 strange, hal is quite an important component of Linux too <-- no? 17:56:37 it is not system criticial 17:56:39 AnMaster: most distros use hal/hald nowadays 17:56:48 and that's like saying a screen isn't system-critical 17:56:50 ais523, yes but it isn't system critical actually 17:56:54 it isn't, but most users want one anyway 17:57:02 aaaah i love chiptunes 17:57:17 AnMaster: x isn't system-critical either 17:57:25 it's still an important component of a linux system 17:57:30 ais523, system critical: init, libc, kernel, + whatever is needed to get you to a rescue shell 17:57:39 rubbish definition 17:57:47 I'm not saying that users wouldn't want to keep it. 17:57:50 AnMaster: libc? 17:57:51 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 17:58:03 aren't rescue shells statically-linked? 17:58:18 ais523, they are. But I don't think init is 17:58:20 * AnMaster looks 17:58:30 init is dynamically linked 17:58:33 AnMaster: init isn't system-critical anyway 17:58:39 of course you could do init=/bin/bb in grub 17:58:41 you can use any program you like as an init, via a boot option 17:58:43 using bash works fine 17:58:44 yes 18:02:11 ehird: only if it was someone who is of age! 18:02:19 ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperDrive#Floppy_disk_drive 18:02:21 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 18:02:29 psygnisfive: Erm, no. 18:02:34 Sex between two minors is illegal in the UK. 18:02:38 really? wow. 18:02:39 haha 18:02:47 Yeah. There's been prosecutions on it. 18:03:04 thats pretty funny 18:03:53 -!- whtspc has joined. 18:04:00 -!- whtspc has quit (Client Quit). 18:18:21 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 18:31:04 -!- trainman419 has left (?). 18:40:29 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 18:42:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:42:33 "Britain’s Supreme Court of Judicature has answered a question that has long puzzled late-night dorm-room snackers: What, exactly, is a Pringle? With citations ranging from Baroness Hale of Richmond to Oliver Wendell Holmes, Lord Justice Robin Jacob concluded that, legally, it is a potato chip." 18:42:39 Potatoless potato chip. 18:43:20 why does it matter? tax reasons? 18:43:23 Interesting that it would be called a potato chip in Britain, given that they're crisps over there. :p 18:43:47 yes, they are 18:43:47 ais523: yep 18:43:52 http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/opinion/01mon4.html?_r=1 18:43:53 although we're aware of American names for things too 18:44:05 pikhq: the most irritating thing is that you call chips fries and crisps chips 18:44:34 "I'm eating chips." "Mm, potato." "Yeah, I love potato. These are Bacon flavored." "...wait, what?" 18:44:57 um? tax reasons!? 18:45:01 "a Pringle is “made from potato flour in the sense that one cannot say that it is not made from potato flour, and the proportion of potato flour is significant being over 40 percent.”" 18:45:03 AnMaster: yes 18:45:14 AnMaster: tax on different products is at different rates 18:45:15 ehird, you mean it is discountable, like for charities in US? 18:45:18 ais523: this is a good time to make a quote: 18:45:18 ah 18:45:21 [[Why, according to Moore, is 'good' like 'yellow' and not like a 'horse'?]] 18:45:22 for VAT 18:45:24 right? 18:45:26 AnMaster: most food is exempt, but crisps aren't. 18:45:27 yes 18:45:30 also, import duty 18:45:35 but I think it's VAT that matters here 18:45:39 so did the tax go up or down now? 18:45:47 for the record, the answer is that good and yellow are irreducible concepts while a horse is not. 18:45:50 AnMaster: up 18:45:56 AnMaster: $160mil 18:45:57 read the article 18:46:09 I know that when I needed to import some processors from the US, we had to prove they didn't have a calculator function 18:46:14 ehird, says I must log in 18:46:16 to get a much lower import duty rate 18:46:21 AnMaster: open in a different browser then 18:46:23 Konq works fine 18:46:28 AnMaster: it does that sometimes 18:46:30 ais523: ... Didn't have a calculator function? 18:46:31 AnMaster: use bugmenot/bugmenot 18:46:31 ais523, I'm using konq 18:46:32 ... 18:46:39 AnMaster: hmm, that one may be disabled 18:46:41 lemme look it up 18:46:45 hmm, well it isn't asking me to log in 18:46:53 ais523: it sometimes does 18:46:56 bait-'n-switch 18:46:57 http://www.bugmenot.com/view/nytimes.com 18:47:02 ehird: random, I wonder? 18:47:07 also, wow at that bugmenot feature 18:47:07 AnMaster: regisblows/whywhywhy 18:47:12 ais523: what feature? 18:47:14 oh 18:47:14 it's bugmenot.com 18:47:17 I assumed the URL was an auto-login 18:47:21 using one of the bugmenot accounts 18:47:26 nope 18:47:29 but it isn't, it's just giving you the username/password pair 18:47:30 as usual 18:47:36 (I know about bugmenot, and have used it on occasion) 18:47:40 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:47:42 ais523: there's a firefox extension 18:47:44 (although normally I just avoid websites with stupid login requirements) 18:47:49 you right click the user name field and hit bug me not 18:47:50 and it submits the form 18:47:51 iirc 18:47:56 ehird, maybe it doesn't like that I disable cookies... 18:48:00 "He was even more dismissive of Procter & Gamble’s argument that to be taxable a product must contain enough potato to have the quality of “potatoness.” This “Aristotelian question” of whether a product has the “essence of potato,” he insisted, simply cannot be answered." 18:48:02 AnMaster: nothing to do with that, I imagine 18:48:08 ehird, since login doesn't work 18:48:13 AnMaster: enable cookies, then 18:48:20 yeah, it's a pain 18:48:20 * ais523 wonders what affect disabling cookies would have on Phorm 18:48:25 *effect 18:48:30 ais523: phorm use a complicated redirect scheme 18:48:32 no cookies 18:48:35 just every page redirects to another 18:48:36 not quite 18:48:38 which redirects to another 18:48:38 ais523: I suppose next they'll start mentioning quales? 18:48:40 ad infinitum 18:48:41 they use a complicated redirect scheme /and/ cookies 18:48:54 essence of potato 18:48:57 sounds like vanilla essence 18:49:00 except yuk 18:49:13 pikhq: it's qualia, you uncultured swine. 18:49:31 [flu[ 18:49:33 ]] 18:49:34 ehird: It's retarded, you cultured bourgeoise. 18:49:52 pikhq: Your mom, proletarian. 18:50:16 [[The inverted spectrum thought experiment, originally developed by John Locke[6] invites us to imagine that we wake up one morning, and find that for some unknown reason all the colors in the world have been inverted. Furthermore, we discover that no physical changes have occurred in our brains or bodies that would explain this phenomenon. Supporters of the existence of qualia argue that, since we can imagine this happening without contradiction]] 18:50:20 that's such a retarded argument 18:50:26 i can imagine a world where pigs fly without contradiction 18:50:32 doesn't mean it's true 18:51:19 umm... if all colours were inverted, how would we know they'd been inverted? 18:51:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:51:36 ais523: because yesterday we saw something as red and now it's green etc? 18:51:42 i'd have thought that'd be pretty obvious 18:51:48 how are red and green defined, though? 18:51:48 The grass outside being red would make it rather obvious 18:51:54 ais523: qualia 18:51:55 Via the qualia 18:51:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia 18:52:01 I suppose you'd need to use a prism or something to actually measure it 18:52:02 that's the base of the whole argument 18:52:06 ais523: unmeasurable 18:52:09 it's about consciousness 18:52:17 well, colour is measurable, so it's a bad analogy 18:52:27 ais523: cf colourblind people 18:52:33 they can measure colour all they want 18:52:37 doesn't mean they can perceive their qualia 18:52:55 well, everyone percieves colour differently anyway 18:53:10 ais523: are you sure about that? 18:53:14 ais523: prove it :D 18:53:20 ais523: I find that idea highly questionable 18:53:29 ehird: because nobody has identical cone pigments, nor connections from the retina to the brain 18:53:42 ais523: oh, you mean infinitesimally different 18:53:44 yes 18:53:50 well, sometimes it's more than infinitesimal 18:54:01 you can find pairs of people where it's infinitesimal, and pairs where it's quite large 18:54:08 i enjoy the fact that a number of the anti-qualia people are well know, while the pro-qualia people are /completely/ random nobodies 18:54:08 which is where the concept of red/brown colourblindness comes from 18:54:33 My view of consciousness is it's the byproduct of the brain's mechanical thought process 18:54:44 That doesn't explain what it actually *is*, but it explains what causes it. 18:55:16 (I also believe that "death" is relative; you a second ago is dead, but our consciousness tries very hard to give a continuous experience. Go fig) 18:55:41 i think consciousness is the brains ability to include amongst its data-to-process the current state of its data-to-process 18:56:01 psygnisfive: I am talking about the subjective, personal experience of consciousness 18:56:03 not its effects 18:56:08 ehird: so am i. 18:56:14 I don't believe that consciousnesses are created, destroyed or anything 18:56:27 I just believe a conscio is a byproduct of our brain thinking 18:56:38 and consciousness is just the perceieved-as-continuous stream of conscios 18:56:45 i believe that the experience of consciousness is precisely the experience of being aware of the fact that youre aware of what you're aware of. 18:56:56 knowing that you know what you know, etc. 18:57:21 psygnisfive: right; I'm not saying what the consciousness actually is, your theory is compatible 18:57:27 I'm just saying how I think it comes by 18:57:42 ah, well. 18:57:48 have you ever read dennett? 18:57:57 consciousness explained discusses some interesting things 18:58:00 no, dennett appears to be a quack :) 18:58:02 like the cutaneous rabbit 18:58:13 dennett is far from a quack. 18:58:25 dunno about that, I've heard some convincing arguments otherwise 18:58:41 never rely on others opinions of a person 18:58:48 not opinion 18:58:49 argument 18:58:49 they're often colored by misunderstanding or stupid. 18:58:59 argument without two sides is opinion. 18:59:31 unless youve actually read dennett, or seen him talk, or whatever, then you dont know what dennett says. you know what people say he says. 18:59:44 rephrase #3: logically-based dissection using original data from source. 18:59:46 -!- jix has quit (Connection timed out). 19:00:07 admittedly, a lot of what he says is not intuitive at all 19:00:22 but its almost entirely based on facts of cognitive science, not on hypothesizing. 19:00:36 you really should read some of his stuff, if only to know what he himself is saying. 19:01:22 by the same argument i should read every quack physics paper that has been dissected and disproved by people whose opinion I value to a degree 19:01:28 because hey, they might just be right!112eleventy 19:01:49 point 19:02:08 except, daniel dennett is not a quack, and is probably one of the most important philosophers of mind today. 19:02:09 :P 19:02:22 important != not a quack 19:02:26 true, but 19:02:31 there are plenty of important, popular people who are complete quacks. 19:02:45 psygnisfive: also, do you realise you're being a hypocrite? 19:02:46 important DOES mean that you should give him some reading 19:02:51 "don't rely on someone's opinion of another" 19:02:56 "daniel dennett is not a quack" 19:03:09 psygnisfive: shit, I have to read everyone who's important's work? 19:03:12 my brain might melt 19:03:14 no 19:03:23 but youre saying hes a quack without knowing what he says 19:03:44 i guess i mentally blocked the quotes from him in what I've read about him, then? 19:03:48 impressive that I still understood 19:04:20 what precisely did you find quackish 19:04:33 i don't recall, surely you've realised that my memory is terrible? 19:04:41 since you're so sure you know what hes said, what did you find to be quacking 19:04:45 http://law.onecle.com/california/civil/3548.html 19:05:01 ais523: it's not even a requirement 19:05:03 wait a second 19:05:05 ais523: that voids the law 19:05:12 it is an axiom that the law has been obeyed 19:05:18 ehird: quite a few of the other rules around there are interesting too 19:05:18 we judge the illegality of an action by the law 19:05:24 since it says that the law has been obeyed, 19:05:31 ehird: I think there's a loophole, it just means that at least one action hasn't been illegal 19:05:31 nobody is ever guilty of the California Civil Code 19:05:33 \o 19:05:35 \o? 19:05:37 err 19:05:38 -!- Hiato1 has joined. 19:05:38 \o/ 19:05:41 ais523: well, imagine: 19:05:46 If a person steals, this law has been disobeyed. 19:05:47 besides, is it even possible to "break" civil law? 19:05:52 stealing is criminal 19:05:57 I know 19:06:00 I was just using an example 19:06:01 there are no civil laws. 19:06:05 just civil law. 19:06:11 so theres nothing to break. 19:06:37 i don't actually understand civil law too much 19:07:07 civil law is just a bunch of people in the community think you're a jerk so you have to pay. 19:07:09 ais523: 19:07:10 Things happen according to the ordinary course of nature and 19:07:11 the ordinary habits of life. 19:07:12 A thing continues to exist as long as is usual with things of 19:07:14 that nature. 19:07:19 what the fuck is this code talking about 19:07:21 yes, I've seen many of those 19:07:35 there is an explanation in there somewhere, I think 19:07:37 just not a very good one 19:07:41 Where one of two innocent persons must suffer by the act of a 19:07:42 third, he, by whose negligence it happened, must be the sufferer. 19:07:45 it's a collection of proverbs! 19:07:57 hey ais523 19:07:57 An interpretation which gives effect is preferred to one 19:07:58 which makes void. 19:08:03 "this law has been obeyed" is effectively void 19:08:09 as in 19:08:13 if we say that it means it's been obeyed once 19:08:18 and, at least, much more void than "it has been obeyed in this case" 19:08:38 I would so love it if some lawyers tried to use those rules to throw out a civil case 19:08:46 unfortunately, I think they're sufficiently self-contradictory that that wouldn't work 19:09:04 [[Time does not confirm a void act.]] 19:09:06 WHAT THE FUCK 19:09:18 Time is cubic. 4-day harmonious rotation does not interfere. 19:09:25 -!- Hiato has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:09:25 [[Superfluity does not vitiate.]] 19:09:29 hahaha this is great 19:10:07 -1*-1=1 is learned stupid. 19:10:15 * ais523 posts the same link in ##nomic 19:11:06 -!- olsner has joined. 19:11:08 conscio is such a nice word 19:11:17 ehird, ever heard of MacBug? 19:11:18 wonder it's conscios or consci? 19:11:30 AnMaster: 19:11:31 MacBUG - Macarthur Bicycle Users group redirect to http ... 19:11:32 Bushwalking and social club based in the Macarthur District of NSW. Includes photos, news, tips, safety and events. 19:11:39 ehird, not that one 19:11:42 -!- impomatic has joined. 19:11:43 Which one 19:11:52 ehird, A system level debugger from Apple. Useful even if you didn't debug on Pre OS X 19:12:04 heh. 19:12:08 *Heh. 19:12:13 ehird, it was useful for normal users, because it made some crashes manage without reboot 19:12:18 wasn't it called macbugs? 19:12:20 you could kill the relevant app. Sometimes 19:12:28 Hi :-) 19:12:29 ehird: why did you pick out what's presumably an early Google result and assume it was correct, when it obviously wasn't? 19:12:30 MacsBug 19:12:30 even 19:12:32 jix_, ^ 19:12:35 just checked 19:12:38 that's what AnMaster's supposed to do in response to you 19:12:39 impomatic: hi 19:12:40 I'm in macbug atm 19:12:42 ais523: it was the first one, and no others referenced anything in particular 19:12:52 ais523: so what he said was thoroughly unhelpful 19:12:52 Any new techniques for BF Joust over the last three days? I've been away. 19:12:55 macsbug 19:12:59 normally when he does it, it's on the same page 19:13:09 macsbug returns a result 19:13:11 AnMaster: ah just remembered that there was some strange s in there i always forgot 19:13:11 impomatic: not really 19:13:13 MacsBug is an acronym for Motorola Advanced Computer Systems Debugger 19:13:14 lol 19:13:14 Has anyone tried programming in the language of Tierra? 19:13:15 the heap rules have changed, though 19:13:22 jix_, not odd I typoed it 19:13:24 anyway 19:13:25 and defend6/7 are winning 19:13:30 even though I haven't resubmit them 19:13:32 hc all says the heap of finder is corrupted 19:13:33 :( 19:13:35 presumably, everyone's using [-] nowadays 19:13:42 only way to handle that is to reboot 19:14:01 * AnMaster enters rs and hits enter 19:14:12 where's oerjan when you need him 19:14:17 also in true apple style it has menus 19:14:29 which work with built in mouse, but not usb ones connected 19:14:30 very odd 19:14:37 ehird, ? 19:14:46 AnMaster: for a logic question 19:14:47 rs is "unmount and reboot" 19:14:49 ah 19:14:56 I had to REISUB earlier 19:15:06 KDE crashed, nothing was working but the mouse pointer 19:15:07 why did I get nostalgic over this old ibook today 19:15:17 I remmeber it was your fault ehird. But I don't remember why 19:15:18 not even control-alt-f1 (even after SysRq-R) or control-alt-backspace 19:15:19 :/ 19:15:23 although reisub itself seemed to work fin 19:15:24 *fine 19:15:36 AnMaster: large resolution for 12" screen 19:15:43 ah 19:15:44 right 19:15:44 I'm trying to write a small efficient Tierra self-replicating program by hand. 19:15:46 I'm down to 22 instructions and 143 cycles. 19:15:47 800x600 indeed 19:15:55 ehird, I upgraded it to 9.2.2 now 19:16:06 AnMaster: stick linux on it 19:16:10 always nice to have a computer 19:16:16 ehird, I have booted it with gentoo once 19:16:17 but 19:16:24 I only keep it for some old mac games 19:16:29 AnMaster: compilation time would be prohibitive for gentoo 19:16:30 the old ibook I mean 19:16:36 ehird, yeah. 19:16:50 ehird, would have to distcc to a cross toolchain on my pc 19:16:57 AnMaster: or... use a binary distro 19:17:12 why not just compile a cross-toolchain from scratch? 19:17:15 you have gcc source, don't you? 19:17:18 ehird, anyway that would be defeating the point. 19:17:19 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 19:17:22 ais523: do you know what distcc is? 19:17:24 ais523, .. you missed the point did you? 19:17:30 didn't* 19:17:35 ehird: no, I can guess but I might have guessed wrong 19:17:39 ais523: you did 19:17:41 try the google 19:17:44 no 19:17:49 your loss 19:18:03 well, if it's in your interest that I know what you're talking about, then you can tell me 19:18:09 if it isn't, then we both have more important things to do 19:18:10 it's not 19:18:16 ais523, it allows spreading compiles over several computers. 19:18:28 AnMaster: ah, interesting 19:18:31 AnMaster: oh, please don't feed his hate of using the web 19:18:34 ais523, what did you think it was? 19:18:35 what about make -jn? could it be modified to do that? 19:18:36 it's tiring 19:18:45 ehird, I'm with ais523 here. Since I share this hate. 19:18:53 luddites 19:18:54 ais523, that is the whole point of it... 19:18:59 ehird: the Web is one of the most annoying and least useful parts of the Internet 19:19:05 just people keep putting things there for some reason 19:19:19 think about it this way: aren't you really annoyed when you phone someone and get an automated system? 19:19:25 ais523: where do you think wikipedia belongs. Gopher 19:19:26 ? 19:19:31 now, would you rather have Google at the other end of the phone, or AnMaster? 19:19:34 anyone remember good old NORTON Utilities. From before it was Symantec? 19:19:46 actually, I have no idea how ehird would answer that question 19:19:49 ais523: broken analogy 19:19:55 ehird: agreed 19:19:56 the web is not like phoning up an automated system 19:19:57 but it's still a good question 19:19:59 so my answer is mu 19:20:00 huh 19:20:06 ehird: and no, it isn't; but it is if you use a search engine 19:20:07 ais523: also, considering how much I argue with AnMaster, Google 19:20:11 and no, it's not 19:20:45 -!- impomatic has left (?). 19:20:59 Hit Cmd-Q to quit app. Get: "PowerPC unmapped memory exception at 3E217A40" in MacsBug 19:21:01 * AnMaster growls 19:21:15 ah 19:21:21 es to kill app worked 19:21:40 "100dpi is Not Enough - Thursday 1 July, 2004" 19:21:42 time for some MPW! 19:21:49 This person numbers all his years by subtracting 10 from them. 19:21:56 Fun fact. 19:23:09 Fun fact: MPW's "worksheet" is a mix between a shell and the "*scratch*" buffer in emacs... 19:23:13 if you see what I mean 19:23:21 erm 19:23:24 emacs *scratch* is a shell 19:23:26 an elisp shell 19:23:27 AnMaster: the *scratch* buffer in emacs is a mix between a shell and the *scratch* buffer in Emacs 19:23:30 try (+ 2 2)C-j 19:23:43 ais523: YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWGGGGGGGG 19:23:50 ais523, hah. 19:24:01 how's that funny 19:24:02 it's true 19:24:11 it's meant to be true /and/ funny 19:25:24 has anyone here tried the new Google Wave thing, btw? 19:25:36 the descriptions remind me of some sort of ridiculously overcomplicated gobby 19:25:44 only Google owns your data not you 19:25:48 but I may have the wrong end of the stick 19:25:50 -!- Hiato1 has quit (Connection reset by peer). 19:25:53 ais523: it's not that 19:26:12 it's like gobby with IM client features that does any kind of data, not just text 19:26:19 ais523: also, it's federated + open protocol 19:26:20 like jabber 19:26:23 you can run your own google wave server 19:26:30 and communicate with people on other servers, including google's official one 19:26:41 so you could do a google wave communication completely bypassing google 19:26:44 ah, ok 19:26:51 I don't like the idea of people seeing what I type as I type it, so I wouldn't use it as IM 19:26:55 but for collaboration, it could be interesting 19:27:09 reminds me of Google Docs in that case 19:27:09 has anyone here tried the new Google Wave thing, btw? <-- what is it 19:27:12 just generalised 19:27:15 AnMaster: i just told you... 19:27:17 AnMaster: read conversation? 19:27:20 ehird just explained 19:27:21 mhm 19:27:25 that is WORSE than googling ;P 19:27:27 ais523: it's google docs, but with name tags, essentially 19:27:33 ok 19:27:38 AnMaster: so you want me to psychically tell you? 19:27:41 ais523: and distributedness 19:27:46 not a bad idea, really 19:27:56 http://www.waveprotocol.org/draft-protocol-spec 19:27:57 although it's one of those things where the amount of hype annoys me 19:28:01 seems a bit incomplete 19:28:06 ais523: tech media is bunk 19:28:06 even if it's only a few millialphas 19:28:12 ah ok 19:28:22 * AnMaster read convo now 19:28:25 convo* 19:28:27 err 19:28:33 right first time around 19:28:34 meh 19:28:37 bbl food 19:28:42 AnMaster: *reads 19:28:52 i'm still trying to recover from the shock of someone in 2004 saying that 100dpi is low resolution 19:29:14 (and trying to futz with values to figure out what their 150dpi screen was) 19:30:03 1920x1200 @ 15" 19:30:05 = 150dpi 19:30:10 can't be that, must be bigger 19:30:25 2048x1152 @ 19" is only 123dpi 19:30:55 what DPI do you use, anyway? 19:30:58 1920x1200 a 15"? 19:31:07 pikhq: I'm trying to figure out what this 150dpi screen in 2004 was 19:31:08 That's just silly. 19:31:18 ehird: Mmkay. 19:31:20 Asztal: This iMac has a 20" @ 16something x 1050. 19:31:22 100dpi 19:31:27 Was it 15"? 19:31:36 I'm probably going for a 94-96dpi screen for my new box, due to ubiquityness. 19:31:37 Deewiant: no idea 19:31:45 but in 2004, 30" displays were the hugest there ever was 19:31:50 so I'm guessing 1x-2x 19:32:02 plus a 150dpi 50" display would have to be a gazillion x a bajillion 19:32:04 Isn't that still pretty much the hugest there is? :-P 19:32:05 er 19:32:06 *30" 19:32:10 Deewiant: well, yeh 19:32:26 2560x1600 @ 20" = 150dpi 19:32:32 # 1920x1200 @ 15.4 Dell Inspiron 6000 19:32:47 Asztal: SAME PPI CALCULATOR BUDDIES 19:32:47 (147 dpi) 19:32:51 *hi5* 19:33:21 ah, I figured you were just guessing :) 19:33:32 Asztal: nope, I'm feeding values into it 19:34:10 "I already run with Small Fonts on my 150ppi screen, and use 9pt for all my text editing." 19:34:17 my consolation is that this guy is probably blind by now 19:34:29 21 characters per fucking inch 19:35:12 -!- Hiato has joined. 19:38:37 Asztal: there should be one where you can put in a dpi and a screen size 19:38:41 and it gives you the resolution 19:39:10 -!- tetha has joined. 19:40:33 "McVities defended its classification of Jaffa Cakes as cakes. In doing so it produced a 12" Jaffa Cake to illustrate that its Jaffa Cakes were simply miniature cakes." 19:40:38 Our logic is undeniable! 19:40:46 * ehird makes a 12" digestive biscuit 19:41:08 heh, I read that before too 19:41:18 om nom nom nom nom 19:41:20 hi tetha 19:41:29 hmm maybe the topic will put people off answering my his :) 19:41:31 greetings 19:41:41 tetha: haven't seen your name around; you new? 19:42:02 yep, learned about this channel earlier today and figured I'd take a look 19:42:14 fair enough 19:42:17 okay, um, I'd like to get this out of the way since it happens so often: we're about esoteric programming languages, not magic or witchcraft or anything of that sort 19:42:21 here for esolang discussion, or the jousting? 19:42:22 there, now we can all get on 19:42:37 (yes, we do get people thinking that...) 19:42:39 I certainly hope this is about sligtly less usable languages :) 19:42:43 yes 19:42:50 tetha: It depends on your definition of "slightly". 19:42:50 slightly can be an understatement on occasiono 19:43:04 octal casino? 19:43:21 Octal... casino. 19:43:26 It sounds like a good idea if only I knew what it meant. 19:43:42 hehe... yes, malbolge is "slightly" unusable... sort of 19:43:48 -!- Hiato1 has joined. 19:44:02 Quite 19:44:13 tetha: nonsense 19:44:14 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-malbolge-995.html 19:44:19 i bet it only took a few months to write too 19:44:36 It's all pretty straight forward, isn't it? 19:44:48 Yes. 19:44:51 I mean, the squiggly bit there 19:44:56 And the wave pattern there. 19:45:03 Translates to "print out the 99 bottles of beer song". 19:45:03 Could be worse, really 19:45:09 It could be in Plain English. 19:45:10 Yes, ladies and gentlemen; Malbolge is an elaborate hoax. 19:45:12 *rimshot* 19:45:12 -!- Hiato has quit (Connection reset by peer). 19:45:18 If you decode its spec and understand its very nature of working... 19:45:25 It's just an obfuscated HQ9+. 19:45:32 heh 19:45:36 Slereah_, now THAT would be difficult to understand 19:45:37 * ehird nods. Sagely. 19:45:39 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:45:50 FireFly: 99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-plain-english-1056.html 19:45:53 'Tis a real language 19:45:54 http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-plain-english-1056.html 19:46:21 Plain English is /awful/ 19:46:27 yes 19:46:27 and apparently intended seriously 19:46:28 it truly is 19:46:30 meaking them even worse than us 19:46:31 yes, it is 19:46:31 -!- MizardX has quit ("from __future__ import skynet"). 19:46:35 where's oerjan when you need him 19:46:37 ais523: we've proved it TC, iirc 19:46:37 Oh 19:46:40 ehird: how does it compare to BancSTAR? 19:46:44 it can loop 19:46:51 so can BancSTAR 19:46:53 ais523: oh, it's easier to program in 19:47:04 but you just get going— yeah, i've read the manual, hey, this is working 19:47:06 I can do this 19:47:09 I think I confused it with English (the esolang) 19:47:12 ooh, a stupid restriction 19:47:18 damn, how do I do this 19:47:19 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:47:21 oh shit is THAT how that works? 19:47:24 oh crap it doesn't extend to 19:47:27 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhh!!!! 19:47:34 Slereah_ can also attest to this 19:47:44 -!- Judofyr has joined. 19:47:56 ais523: it doesn't help that the manual continually calls windows kludges and whores and generally harasses you 19:48:09 *windows a kludge and a whore 19:48:16 "Not to be confused with ENGLISH, a (non-esoteric) SQL-like programming language used in the old Pick operating system." 19:48:20 I was so confusing it with that. 19:48:22 well, if you've ever tried to program for Windows, you'll know the feeling 19:48:25 (http://esolangs.org/wiki/English) 19:48:28 but it isn't /quite/ as bad at that 19:49:42 hmm... who was it here who was trying to write an esolang which was completely readable by a non-programmer, yet interpretable by an interp? 19:49:51 they wanted to come up with the language first 19:49:55 The osmosian order? :P 19:49:59 then write DeCSS in it (legal, according to US precedent) 19:50:03 heh 19:50:07 then write the interp (thus retroactively making the program illegal) 19:50:37 ais523: i don't think the program would become illegal 19:50:41 if it was sufficiently english-like 19:50:46 lojban could help 19:50:47 an interesting point 19:50:49 even if there's an interp? 19:50:57 ais523: i can write an interpreter that interprets Macbeth 19:51:02 as a DeCSS program 19:51:05 without hardcoding it in particular 19:51:08 does that make Macbeth illegal? No. 19:51:14 of course, intent is everything 19:51:14 ehird: that's an interesting point 19:51:18 would the interp then be illegal, I wonder? 19:51:23 so you might want to get someone to write decss and just suggest some quirks of language 19:51:24 I suspect you'd have to deliberately aim for deCSS 19:51:26 without telling them your plan 19:51:36 ais523: not neccessarily 19:51:39 in all likelihood, yes 19:51:41 but theoretically, no 19:51:46 double, double, toil and trouble 19:52:47 how's BF Joust getting on? 19:53:03 I still don't get how a couple of my ancient programs are back at the top of the leaderboard, without me resubmitting 19:53:06 even with all the rules changes 19:53:09 that just feels weird 19:53:20 ais523: Well, someone has already devised a programming language for DeCSS. It has a DeCSS implemenation, but is not itself implemented... 19:53:37 pikhq: is it HQ9+-style? 19:53:48 No. It's a C-like language. 19:53:54 (even if not, we should /so/ add a DeCSS command to HQ9+...) 19:54:05 ais523: Yuh. 19:54:40 CHIQRSX9++D 19:54:46 The best of all worlds. 19:55:06 he managed to put all the correct ones second <-- it did happen to be alphabetical order 19:55:13 oerjan: :P 19:55:25 ehird: also, some people would disagree with you 19:55:32 although I agree with you on the non-programming-related one 19:55:37 ais523: unpossible 19:55:40 back when I drank cola, I did prefer Pepsi to Coca-Cola 19:55:40 i'm objectively right, always 19:55:47 although I don't drink it nowadays 19:56:10 AnMaster: *reads <-- no. It was "has read" 19:56:17 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/new-language.txt 19:56:19 AnMaster: "I read" would work 19:56:23 "AnMaster read" doesn't really 19:56:27 well 19:56:30 AnMaster read works 19:56:30 but 19:56:32 AnMaster read the convo now 19:56:33 doesn't 19:56:33 ehird, /me readed that convo 19:56:36 Trivial to compile to C. 19:56:36 what about that 19:56:40 is it better? 19:56:42 :P 19:56:43 AnMaster: ... no 19:56:50 I mean, really, sed would do it... 19:57:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:57:01 pikhq: I'm going to write a compiler for that now 19:57:04 as I am contrarian 19:57:20 ehird: You will retroactively make it illegal. 19:57:22 Nice work. 19:57:28 pikhq: nope 19:57:35 I can't make someone else retroactively do something illegal 19:57:37 I don't have that legal power 19:57:37 ehird, well that was what it meant. Except in English it is "read" but pronounced as "red" in past. 19:57:45 distributing it w/ knowledge of the compiler will become illegal, though 19:57:49 thus what I wrote was correct as far as I can tell ehird 19:57:51 AnMaster: the fact is your sentence was invalid 19:57:59 ais523: [[* AnMaster read the convo now]] - invalid, agreed? 19:58:01 or at least very awkward 19:58:03 AnMaster: yeah english really blue it 19:58:04 ehird, so.. "/me walked foo" 19:58:19 ehird, would have to be "/me walkeds foo" 19:58:21 -!- MizardX has joined. 19:58:23 ... 19:58:24 according to your logic 19:58:25 AnMaster: ...no 19:58:32 I also thought the "readed" was a bit odd 19:59:19 FireFly, that is because it is "read" in past tense 19:59:48 AnMaster: logic doesn't change what is valid about a language 19:59:49 that is why it has to be "* AnMaster read the convo now". It is "AnMaster the convo now". 20:00:04 what exactly is invalid in it 20:00:09 reads would be invalid 20:00:10 orange you glad english spelling is so logical 20:00:32 since that would imply present tense 20:00:39 ehird, ^ 20:00:53 AnMaster: it just is invalid 20:01:01 ask psygnisfive if you want to know the linguistic reason, I don't 20:01:07 ehird, why. Is "AnMaster walked to the house now" invalid too? 20:01:13 I'm just a native speaker and I know that it's either incredibly awkward or invalid 20:01:26 ehird, yes or no? 20:01:27 AnMaster: Step 1. Read past two messages. Step 2. Repeat until comprehension is achieved. 20:01:38 ehird, is it invalid or not 20:01:41 that line 20:01:41 ehird: I think it's valid but incredibly awkward, the original 20:01:48 likewise, for the new one 20:01:56 you're mixing past tense with an indication of the present 20:01:57 ais523, why is it awkward? 20:02:11 ais523, ah 20:02:16 AnMaster: the correct form is "I've read the convo now" 20:02:21 i was sort of hoping for a groaning yellow epic proportions here... 20:02:22 "AnMaster read the" = "I read the" 20:02:29 and correctness needs I → I've 20:02:33 "have read", not "read", makes it work better 20:02:42 as it's "have read by now", a sort of past version of the future perfect 20:02:48 ais523, ah. 20:03:00 ais523, yes that was the intention 20:03:15 the thing I was saying here was that ehird's "reads*" correction was not correct. 20:03:17 I have written a perl compiler from DeCSSLanguage to C 20:03:19 It only uses s/// 20:03:26 AnMaster: I thought you meant you were reading it now 20:03:35 because it was awkward, but not if you added an s 20:03:38 ehird, If so I would have used "reads" 20:03:47 AnMaster: oh come on, like you don't make trivial typos all the time 20:04:04 ehird, anyway, it isn't my fault English writes it as "read" but pronounces it either as "read" or "red" 20:04:04 ... 20:04:06 my brain thinks you making a trivial typo is more likely than you making a horribly warped sentence, and so assumed the former 20:04:10 ........................................... 20:04:14 what's it got to do with pronounciation 20:04:18 *pronunciation 20:04:27 ehird, because the spelling is confusing in such cases 20:04:54 if it has been a verb that you added the standard "ed" to to make past tense it would have been harder to misunderstood 20:05:02 same for if I had _said_ "red" 20:05:27 (and yes I'm aware of those two "to", but as far as I can tell it is valid?) 20:05:46 ais523: what's a better way of doing 'print func <>'? 20:05:50 for <> = whole input 20:05:54 AnMaster: go speak lojban 20:05:59 AnMaster: i think you need the first "has" to be "had", though 20:06:13 oerjan, ah good point 20:06:40 I don't proof read IRC lines, but if I had I think I would have detected that had. 20:06:54 that has* 20:06:58 it definitely stands out if you read it aloud. 20:07:04 Maybe it changed word class as we speak? 20:07:05 :> 20:07:12 classy 20:08:27 RAWR 20:09:49 FireFly, hm? Had had been has you might have been correct (and I'm not sure about that "have"...) 20:10:19 Touché 20:15:29 Uncivil disobedience: http://pastie.org/496882.txt?key=guczgfl0y62fnulv88jhg 20:16:19 ehird, what is the point of the original... 20:16:30 AnMaster: it's US law related 20:16:42 don't try to understand, you'll spend half an hour preaching to the choir about how it's stupid 20:17:05 Nice quote 20:17:09 what quot 20:17:10 e 20:17:16 ehird: "Please do not write a compiler or interpreter for this language." lawl 20:17:36 ehird, I know what DeCSS is (breaking copy protection...) but why doesn't he want a compiler for that language? 20:17:48 AnMaster: because that makes the program illegal 20:18:11 ehird, he should have a human readable description of the algorithm instead. Would be safer. 20:18:21 that defeats the point entirely 20:18:44 The point is basically to make fun of DMCA. 20:19:20 he has an email address 20:19:23 I'm going to email him that program 20:19:30 ehird, store_char seems wrong 20:19:31 >:) 20:19:36 AnMaster: i s/byte/char/ previously 20:19:40 i've tested the compilation 20:19:42 only main is missing 20:19:44 ah yes 20:19:48 you should make a library out of it in one line 20:19:52 you replace it before yeah 20:19:55 curl http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/new-language.txt | perl decsslang.pl | gcc -x c /dev/stdin 20:20:54 let's hope the :-) in the subject line offsets the anger of "Fuck you" 20:20:57 in the code 20:21:02 >:D 20:21:14 i'm such a bastard 20:21:26 Remember to paste the reaction 20:21:34 i will 20:21:37 Good- 20:22:25 ehird, you seemed irritated when I cared all about edge cases... 20:22:33 AnMaster: ... whut 20:22:34 ? 20:22:43 ehird, you have been that before.? 20:22:50 or are you denying it? 20:22:51 what are you talking about? 20:22:57 I'm trying to figure out any context at all 20:23:09 ehird, the context will happen later 20:23:21 ais523: can you tell me what AnMaster is talking about? 20:23:29 ehird, however, were you or were you not irritated when I started talking about edge cases before 20:23:32 as far as I can tell from his last line, he's replying to something I'll say in the future 20:23:41 both for cfunge, and for other stuff 20:23:42 ehird, ^ 20:23:50 like new language ideas you had 20:23:55 ehird, yes or no? 20:24:00 AnMaster: I don't answer questions without context. :) 20:24:11 ehird, there is none 20:24:19 unless you answer it 20:24:21 Then 'tis a pointless question. 20:24:33 ehird, it could be argued that this "no such language" is such an edge case of the DMCA law anyway... 20:24:43 not that I'm saying I consider it so 20:24:46 so? 20:24:49 -!- nooga has joined. 20:24:53 i just did it for fun 20:24:57 ehird, so edge cases aren't important? ;P 20:24:58 and I don't think the concept is legally valid 20:25:01 I'd say there's so very much sickeningly wrong with the DMCA. 20:25:13 pikhq, agreed 20:25:26 Step 1. Repeal DMCA. Step 2. Repeal patents. Step 3. Repeal copyright law. 20:25:39 ↑ Nevergetelectedeverneverforeverintheus Anonymous 20:25:45 3-step program to not getting elected in the US. 20:25:46 http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html << this gave me creeps 20:25:56 ehird: Step 4. Create sane copyright law. Step 5. Create sane patent law. 20:26:13 ehird: Oh, that stance will work. ... 50 years from now. 20:26:20 pikhq: sane copyright law. Right. Also, go about making paint dry faster. 20:26:28 FURTHERMORE, any water caught being wet will be prosecuted. 20:26:29 ... When the Pirate Party is completely and utterly done in Europe. 20:27:12 the only part of copyright law that might be worth keeping in any form, is preventing someone taking your work and changing the name 20:27:12 Uh.. that just sounds odd when directly translated from Swedish 20:27:15 At least to me 20:27:17 nooga: Ah, The Last Question. One of my favorite Asimov short stories. 20:27:24 FireFly: It is a bit of an odd name. 20:27:27 Piratpartiet sounds nicer. 20:27:30 Heh 20:27:48 ehird: many things in swedish sound nice 20:27:55 i like to hear that language 20:28:05 ehird: Well, that *is* the only enforcable bit. 20:28:17 FireFly, which one? 20:28:25 "the Pirate Party" 20:28:32 pikhq: first impression: MULTIVAC -> google 20:28:34 pikhq: OTOH the actual enforcing of it isn't very good and there's a ton of gray areas 20:28:42 http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html << this gave me creeps << tl;dr 20:28:43 last impression: AC -> God 20:28:57 AC = Singularity, more like. 20:29:01 oh 20:29:03 Rather rubbish singularity though, letting us die out like that. 20:29:04 yea 20:29:08 And then "exiting time" whatever that means. 20:29:08 that's more suitable name 20:29:15 i don't believe in God 20:29:18 FireFly, hm.. men är det inte "piratpartiet"? 20:29:19 Don't give a damn about the Universe existing if everyone's kicked the bucket :) 20:29:22 AnMaster: yes, piratpartiet 20:29:26 indeed 20:29:28 Jo 20:29:34 so why are you saying it sounds odd? 20:29:36 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party 20:29:44 nice that sweden's progressing politically faster than others 20:29:46 isn't "party" the relevant translation of a political party? 20:29:47 It just sounds odd in English 20:29:51 Yes, it is 20:29:56 then why odd 20:30:01 I fail to see it -_- 20:30:03 But I still find it odd, I'm used to the swedish wording, all right? 20:30:07 ok 20:30:14 I've never seen it in english before :P 20:30:23 FireFly: Doesn't sound odd to me. 20:30:47 Well, you're not natively Swedish speaking 20:30:49 * pikhq looks forward to having Pirates in office. 20:30:53 Hey, last I heard Piratpartiet was the 4th largest party. 20:30:55 Now it's third. 20:30:56 Neato. 20:30:59 No, but I'm natively English speaking. 20:31:07 Yeah, and I'm not 20:31:09 Which is my point 20:31:20 ehird, hm...? 20:31:33 ehird: Yeah. It's estimated that it'll get a couple seats in EU Parliament. 20:31:34 AnMaster: Piratpartiet have the third largest membership of any Swedish political party. 20:31:38 Pretty kick-ass. 20:31:38 ah 20:32:06 (here's to election systems that aren't winner takes all) 20:32:11 but is it third in opinionsundersökningarna (wth is that in English?) for the EU election? 20:32:16 go Europeon elections! 20:32:22 Euro peon 20:32:24 Europeon 20:32:26 hm 20:32:29 *European 20:32:32 The words peon and peonage are derived from the Spanish peón (pe'on). It has a range of meanings but its primary usage is to describe labourers with little control over their employment conditions. 20:32:51 whoops 20:32:55 !help 20:32:56 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 20:33:00 ^^^ Now categoricalish. 20:33:06 ais523: i like how the BNP are on the european election ballot. made me think for a second :) 20:33:28 ehird: British Nationalist? 20:33:28 LMAO 20:33:31 pikhq: yeah 20:33:41 they're basically nazis 20:33:49 and naturally hate the EU with a fiery passion 20:33:58 AnMaster: Approximately 8% of the Swedish population will vote Pirate, according to polls... 20:34:07 ehird: They just want to destroy it from the inside! 20:34:07 pikhq, hm. Source? 20:34:13 I read it as 6% or so last time 20:34:30 http://www.dn.se/fordjupning/europa2009/piratpartiet-far-tva-mandat-i-ny-matning-1.879371 20:34:44 (read claim from Wikipedia, since I don't speak Swedish) 20:34:45 pikhq: the best part of the BNP is UKIP (UK Independence Party). They claim they're the only party that wants to leave the EU (hem hem BNP don't count hrrrr) and opposes immigration and blah BUT DON'T BE SWAYED BY EXTREMISTS! Don't vote for a "racist party" that stands for our racist ideals (hem hem bnp HACK COUGH)! Vote for us! 20:35:03 "far tva mandat i ny matning" 20:35:06 lets see... 20:35:07 pikhq: FÖRDJUPNING. 20:35:08 ehird: UKIP != BNP 20:35:10 that logo looks awesome 20:35:11 ais523: I know 20:35:14 ais523: read my message again 20:35:17 ehird: Oh, "brilliant" 20:35:20 I meant that the best thing about the BNP is UKIP 20:35:24 ehird: ok 20:35:25 "travels 'tva' places in new feeding" 20:35:27 rather than 20:35:44 FÖRDJUPNING. = RECESS. 20:35:45 "receives two places in new measurement" 20:35:48 sez googol 20:35:57 ehird, um. That may be one meaning 20:35:59 not common 20:36:07 ehird: Call me ignorant about their views, but... Isn't the EU damned good for all involved? 20:36:09 * AnMaster wonders how to properly translate 20:36:16 ehird, "deeper studies"? 20:36:19 something like that 20:36:21 pikhq: Yes. The BNP/UKIP are crazy right wingers. 20:36:30 pikhq: BNP descends from the National Front. 20:36:36 Well, the GBP is stronger than the Euro. 20:36:56 pikhq: founder of the BNP once said: 20:37:00 "Mein Kampf is my bible." 20:37:02 ehird, see what I mean? 20:37:02 GregorR-L: Which is part of why the UK isn't part of the Euro Zone. 20:37:04 so, yeah. 20:37:10 AnMaster: yes 20:37:13 AnMaster: "INDEPTH." 20:37:13 ehird: Oh, so they're the national socialists. 20:37:18 pikhq: Yeah, but the EU isn't exactly happy about that :P 20:37:26 ehird, that could work. But yes it has several possible translations 20:37:27 pikhq: Yeah 20:37:29 depending on context. 20:37:33 GregorR-L: They do permit it, but... Yeah. 20:37:40 pikhq: not really 20:37:44 pikhq, ehird: IIRC, it's some loophole. 20:37:44 the UK negotiated an exception 20:37:47 If I get famous some day, I'll say something in the lines of "The following statement is a lie. " 20:37:50 other countries used loopholes 20:37:53 Just to see how much I get quoted for it 20:37:54 Ah 20:37:56 but the UK just voted themselves an exception 20:38:06 GregorR-L: It's something explicitly written in for the UK. 20:38:13 ehird, which is why automatic translators suck in general. Because a one-to-one mapping usually doesn't work to create an idiomatic (or even correct) translation. 20:38:27 i think denmark also has an exception, while sweden is loopy 20:38:32 GregorR-L: Other countries in the EU without the Euro are claiming to not have an economy that could support it yet. 20:38:38 oerjan: sweden don't use a loophole 20:38:44 they use the officially-sanctioned "our market is too tin" 20:38:45 y 20:38:46 oerjan: I did use the present perfect progressive tense; I just didn't do so in my announcement that I was doing so. 20:38:51 AnMaster: FÖRDJUPNING. → Recess | in-depth | bathtub 20:38:55 ehird: that _is_ their loophole 20:38:55 Useful :D 20:39:00 ehird, No way about the latter one 20:39:01 or 20:39:02 oerjan: but that's not a loophole 20:39:04 oerjan: it's by design 20:39:07 I never heard it meaning bathtub 20:39:09 AnMaster: No, no, I'm sure about this. It's science. 20:39:17 AnMaster: It also means large green baby. 20:39:26 ehird, bathtub is "badkar" 20:39:31 And terrorist communist mutant. 20:39:36 And jumping on top of Fords. 20:39:43 And bad car is "basthub" 20:39:55 :D 20:40:07 you know what would be fun? 20:40:20 if everyone on the planet apart from one person swapped the meanings of yes/no suddenly one day 20:40:21 ehird, fördjupning probably doesn't mean ALL the meanings that recess has even 20:40:25 only some of them 20:40:28 like, we can vote for the most hated person in the world 20:40:30 and do it to them 20:40:39 AnMaster: which ones? 20:40:59 from google translate: "a small concavity" "an enclosure that is set back or indented" 20:41:07 but not the other ones listed in the first group 20:41:17 :D 20:41:39 ehird: why not make that one person swap instead? 20:41:39 ehird, so now you know why translating back and forth with google nevers ends up at the same text 20:41:45 comes to the same thing, but is much less annoying 20:41:48 you don't have to replace books, etc 20:41:56 ais523: how? you'd have to convince them to. the idea is to make them go insane 20:42:06 AnMaster: I already knew why 20:42:09 ehird: there are easier ways 20:42:16 ehird, ah 20:42:33 "This tie has not been shown. The prosecutor must show that Carl Lundström personally has interacted with the user King Kong, who may very well be found in the jungles of Cambodia..." —Pirate Bay trial 20:42:46 Chewbacca! 20:42:48 ehird, anyway, isn't correct machine translation a strong AI problem iirc? 20:42:48 the King Kong defence was great 20:42:56 AnMaster: Comprehending things in general is. 20:43:01 And translation is comprehending then restating. 20:43:01 it's not the Chewbacca defence, in that it generally makes sense 20:43:11 ais523: reminds me of it, though 20:43:14 It's still great, though. 20:43:16 ehird, yes 20:43:22 ehird, so why does google even TRY 20:43:24 :/ 20:43:31 AnMaster: It's incredibly useful 20:43:33 because in general it is gibberish 20:43:37 I've read news articles with it before 20:43:38 let's ask MULTIVAC 20:43:38 And no 20:43:39 hm, so translation is compilation 20:43:39 :f 20:43:41 AnMaster: Because Google wants strong AI. 20:43:41 for a native speaker, it's easy to understand 20:43:49 you just have to fill in the gaps 20:43:51 ehird, well, maybe "to English" works better than "to Swedish" 20:43:52 and you can very well get the gist 20:43:58 AnMaster: 'cuz english is more common 20:44:03 AnMaster: To English works decently. 20:44:05 ehird, sadly so 20:44:17 problem is that some laguages have more complex constructs and vocabulary than english 20:44:17 why sadly? 20:44:18 It certainly isn't correct English, but it at least gives you a clue. 20:44:24 why is english any worse than swedish? 20:44:31 ehird, It would be fun if it was YOU who had the problems with not being a native speaker instead of me. 20:44:32 so that the translator must deduce right words and cases from the context 20:44:35 :P 20:44:42 and for this, culture is required 20:44:45 AnMaster: If I wanted to learn Swedish I would. 20:44:54 what i would really like is a tool that does only grammar parsing of the text and word translations 20:45:01 ehird, You would still not manage it as well as a native speaker 20:45:09 because that are both things that machines can do 20:45:13 AnMaster: I meant, if I learned Swedish I would have your problems. 20:45:21 jix_: no, grammatical parsing is not perfect 20:45:21 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Connection timed out). 20:45:30 ehird: i didn't say perfect 20:45:31 jix_: sentences in spoken languages often aren't 100% grammatically correct 20:45:33 jix_: Parsing English is probably strong AI. 20:45:35 (btw machines can do anything) 20:45:36 heck I bet it would be harder than English. Since you have simple rules for when it is "a" and when it is "an". We don't have simple ones for "en" and "ett" iirc. 20:45:53 rather, it is more like things being either "le" or "la" in French. 20:45:54 jix_: Now, doing that with *Lojban*? 20:45:56 Easy. 20:46:10 lojban's official grammar is written in yacc. but it's terribly arcane yacc 20:46:23 * ais523 thinks that the BF Joust leaderboard is pretty atm 20:46:26 ehird: Actually, Lojban's official grammar is written in BNF. 20:46:38 pikhq: ok let me rephrase it... it's easier to get computesr to parse grammer than to get them to restate sentences in a different langauge 20:46:39 because all the defence programs are grouped in the middle 20:46:40 ("Real ganstas sip on yacc, you just generate a parser") 20:46:43 so you get a big block of 0s 20:46:43 pikhq: You sure? 20:46:44 why arcane yacc? 20:46:45 :P 20:46:48 The Yacc code they publish is generally thought to be equivalent, but the BNF is the official one. 20:46:48 AnMaster: just is 20:46:52 ehird, why 20:46:54 also 20:46:54 :/ 20:46:58 AnMaster: I DON'T KNOW 20:47:01 I DIDN'T WRITE IT 20:47:01 ok 20:47:05 ehird, got a link? 20:47:07 Presumably because it's old 20:47:09 sentences may be ambiguous 20:47:10 AnMaster: http://www.lojban.org/publications/formal-grammars/grammar.300 20:47:28 hmm not as arcane as I recall 20:47:38 I am disappointed that nobody pickde up on my quote 20:48:07 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Success). 20:48:48 " preparser will not lex the individual words per their normal selma'o; used to quote ungrammatical Lojban" 20:48:51 heh? 20:49:01 "equivalent to the * or ? writing" 20:49:03 hm 20:49:05 yes? 20:49:17 ehird, you have special quotes for "free form" language or something? 20:49:29 AnMaster: if you want to quote english/french/C/etc, there is syntax for that 20:49:34 ah 20:49:39 there's a difference between, e.g. in english 20:49:43 why is the source code comments in English btw 20:49:43 [["dog" would work]] 20:49:48 [["return 4;" would work]] 20:49:58 AnMaster: because most lojban speakers aren't fluent 20:50:05 and it is of interest to non-speakers too 20:50:19 iirc there's only ~3 fluent lojban speakers (can think & talk in lojban without mental translation) 20:50:30 heh 20:50:32 A large part of Lojban's interest is in AI research. 20:50:54 ehird, I can actually think in both Swedish an English. I think in English when programming definitely 20:50:55 It's certainly easier to do language handling when you have a syntax. 20:51:01 or a mix I guess 20:51:09 AnMaster: but do you think in swedish for a split second and then translate to english? 20:51:12 most likely 20:51:15 even if you don't notice 20:51:20 ehird, not so that I notice it at least 20:51:33 not sure how you could measure if I notice it or not 20:51:52 * pikhq should learn Toki Pona. 20:51:56 ehird, but some stuff I definitely don't know what they are called in Swedish 20:52:00 when it comes to programming 20:52:09 pikhq: it's easy; an afternoon's work 20:52:13 IF your brain is wired for it 20:52:14 ehird, I had problems trying to translate to the Swedish terms when talking about programming in Swedish 20:52:18 I am unable to learn any new languages 20:52:20 ehird: when programming i usually think in english too 20:52:24 I can learn the terms, how to put it together, ... 20:52:29 but my brain never adds a new language to my system 20:52:32 ehird: because for many terms and expresions i don't even know the translations 20:52:34 :( 20:52:42 jix_, same as me then 20:52:53 Mi eblas lerni lingvojn. 20:52:53 ;) 20:52:54 I have no clue what the correct term for "array" is in Swedish for example 20:52:57 pikhq: also, Toki Pona relies on saphir-whorf being strongly true 20:52:58 it is not 20:53:07 pretty sure I heard it though... was something extremely silly 20:53:10 oh yes right 20:53:15 "fält" iirc 20:53:20 which sounds more like "field" 20:53:22 than array 20:53:31 completely illogical IMO 20:53:37 not only sounds 20:53:38 means more 20:53:43 ehird: I'd assume Sonja knew that. Linguist and all. 20:53:47 pikhq: nope: 20:53:51 and i notice that i have real problems in german conversations about programming 20:53:53 lemme find some quacky quotes 20:54:10 ehird, so yes I'm pretty sure I think in English when programming 20:54:28 pikhq: but basically, the site says that it changes your thinking to be positive and shit 20:54:36 Face palm. 20:54:41 like i want to say something and mid sentence i notice i just can't ... 20:54:54 lament was one of the first toki pona people thingy and he says sonja is batshit insane :) 20:55:07 ehird, and I just tried to translate what I wrote above to Swedish. Took about 10 seconds. If I had thought it in Swedish surely it would be easy to backtranslate it? 20:55:16 AnMaster: not necessarily 20:55:23 I seem to recall Sukoshi looking into it, as well. 20:55:26 jix_: I tend to just switch to english in that case (usually causing angry looks) 20:55:35 Hmm. Okay, toki pona? Not worth it. 20:55:42 ehird, heck, I can express things in English I can't in Swedish and vice versa. 20:55:50 tetha: i often end up in an awfull mix of german and english 20:55:50 pikhq: as a language it's nice though 20:55:55 AnMaster: then you're probably fluent to a degree 20:56:43 ehird, I'm not of course as fluent in English as I'm in Swedish. But for certain topics I'm probably more fluid in English yeah. Like programming. 20:56:47 I think the worst part about learning a language is finding a place to use it a lot 20:57:19 kulatukalato 20:57:23 ehird, but I wouldn't know my way around an English kitchen. I know there are stuff like "spatulas" but I can't map them to the Swedish words, nor what they actually are. 20:57:25 tetha: that's true... i failed at learning french at school because i just didn't need it 20:57:36 * AnMaster idly wounders what "durkslag" is in English 20:57:38 coo lah too kah lah too 20:57:48 it's actually "spatulus" and/or "spatuli" 20:57:50 * nescience koffs 20:57:50 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:57:53 where a is long a 20:57:56 while english was no problem because i was reading english texts, or rather grepped throught them for information i needed before i even started learning english at school... 20:57:58 say that 10 times fast 20:58:04 kulatukalato is probably a nice eodermdrome graph... 20:58:10 ehird, what would you call this: http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fil:Durchschlag.jpg 20:58:18 I would call it "durkslag" 20:58:20 and then when i started hanging around on irc i wrote a lot of english too 20:58:20 10 TIMES FAST!!! 20:58:23 AnMaster: sieve 20:58:36 i'd say that there are many days where i write more english than i talk german... 20:58:36 ehird: Easy, compared to some Esperanto tonguetwisters. 20:58:40 ehird, wikipedia thinks it is "colander" in English... Hm. 20:58:45 Either you fail or wikipedia fails 20:58:47 hmm... tuka forms a cycle, t also connects to o, u and a both also connect to l 20:58:49 AnMaster: oh right. 20:58:56 ehird, oh? 20:58:57 pikhq: gimme a pronunciation file, I'm having troubles pronouncing it 20:59:03 Gah, just wrapping my tongue around 'scienco'. 20:59:08 AnMaster: colander subset-of sieve 20:59:19 A colander (also known as a Cullender) is a type of sieve, used in cooking for separating liquids and solids. It is much like a strainer. It is conventionally made of a light metal, such as aluminium or thinly rolled stainless steel, although it is not uncommon for it to be made of plastic. A colander is pierced with a pattern of small holes (or slots in plastic colanders) that let the liquid drain through, but retain the solids inside. Colanders often t 20:59:21 ake the form of a large bowl with a built-in stand to allow water to drain out the bottom as well as the sides. 20:59:42 ehird, ah. sieve translates to "såll" in Swedish iirc. And såll and durkslag are in Swedish both subsets of some unnamed superset. 20:59:47 :/ 20:59:55 what's a såll? 21:00:07 a sieve? 21:00:12 http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Såll 21:00:21 no en interwiki link 21:00:31 interwiki translates sieve to "sil" in Swedish 21:00:36 which I would claim is a third type 21:00:58 pikhq: if you do make a pronunciation file, note that there's stress on the start of every syllable 21:00:59 i think 21:01:06 the picture there I would also call a sil 21:01:13 well, not total stress, that'd just be overpowering 21:01:15 w/e 21:01:30 ehird, I think this is a case of non-simple mappings between the languages 21:02:46 "both subsets of some unnamed superset." 21:02:51 Programming parallells <3 21:02:52 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 21:02:56 FireFly: ... 21:02:59 FireFly, no? 21:02:59 Logic parallels. 21:03:02 Set theory maybe 21:03:03 I guess 21:03:04 Not programming. 21:03:05 ais523: hm lots of redundancy. atotulukal. 21:03:09 anmaster: what is this that you're looking to do with linguisticy stuff? 21:03:10 Meh, oh well 21:03:14 what was the question?? 21:03:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:03:18 oerjan: words start with consonants and end with vowels, always 21:03:19 or ehird, either one of you. 21:03:32 also, a consonant is always followed by a vowel 21:03:33 psygnisfive, err? 21:03:35 cvcvcvcv 21:03:38 not sure 21:03:55 ehird: latotuluka then 21:04:10 psygnisfive: pronounce kulatukalato into an audial file, gimme. koo lah too kah lah too, a is long a. small stress on the start of every syllable, no other stress 21:04:35 oerjan: lah toh too loo kah 21:04:50 ehird: "long a" is meaningless to me, and "stress on the start of every syllable" but no other stress is also meaningless 21:04:57 psygnisfive: a as in father 21:05:02 and fine, if it's meaningless ignore it :) 21:05:04 stress is a contrastive thing. you cannot stress every syllable because then there is no stress at all. 21:05:09 well, duh 21:05:11 I knew that 21:05:19 i was just trying to express the concept :P 21:05:27 the consonants are pronounced a little bit more strongly than the vowels 21:05:29 furthermore, stress is a property of syllables as a whole, not parts of syllables 21:05:31 but there's no stress 21:05:37 so thar 21:05:41 a little bit more strongly pronounced? 21:05:44 i dont know what this means. 21:05:48 psygnisfive: oh, forget it 21:05:50 "no stress" 21:05:55 ehird, what does this word mean 21:05:59 and from which language is it 21:06:08 AnMaster: nothing concrete, and I just made it up 21:06:18 it sounds nice, and it's the compound of two words 21:06:20 kula and tukalato 21:06:24 ehird, I bet Deewiant could manage that nicely 21:06:26 also, i presume when you write "koo lah too kah lah too" you mean the "oo"s to be as in the english word "too" 21:06:27 probably 21:06:30 psygnisfive: yep 21:06:30 ehird, it looks like .fi to me 21:06:30 yes? 21:06:32 ok 21:06:51 so phonetically, [kulatukalatu] 21:07:00 -!- Hiato1 has quit (Client Quit). 21:07:26 psygnisfive: wait, no 21:07:32 i must have said it wrong 21:07:33 it's 21:07:49 kulatukalato, koo lah too kah lah toh 21:07:55 ok 21:07:58 o is oh, u is oo 21:08:01 a is as in father 21:08:19 and i presume that you dont intend genuine english phonology whereby you get aspiration and t-tapping 21:08:28 absolutely not! 21:08:31 ok 21:08:37 i'm trying to keep the pronunciation as simple as possible :P 21:08:44 so what is it you're trying to do now? 21:08:49 psygnisfive: beats me 21:08:58 what is this word for? :P 21:09:06 existing! 21:09:07 Very .fi, yes. 21:09:20 Deewiant: yeah, .fi is an inspiration because it sounds so nice :) 21:09:34 this word is plausible for so many world languages its not funny 21:09:45 hawaiian, for instance, is i think uniformly CV 21:10:07 hmm anyone ever tried to make a language (spoken, not programming) that has a minmal set of words? 21:10:19 yes 21:10:21 psygnisfive: so get to pronouncing it! :P 21:10:21 Basic English 21:10:24 jix_: Toki Pona. 21:10:43 Deewiant, can you pronounce it? 21:10:57 oh, ehird, you want me to record myself saying it? 21:10:57 ok. 21:11:06 ehird: So, Esperanto phoneme-grapheme mapping. 21:11:13 and i presume that you dont intend genuine english phonology whereby you get aspiration and t-tapping <-- ? 21:11:13 AnMaster: Of course, it's trivial :-P 21:11:16 what do you mean 21:11:20 Deewiant, not to me! 21:11:21 psygnisfive: yeah, 'cuz I keep tripping over it :) 21:11:55 Meh, pronunciation is trivial as long as you can do the individual sounds 21:11:59 anmaster: english cannot pronounce /kulatukalato/ as [kulatukalato] because of the phonology of the language 21:12:03 Deewiant: not fast enough 21:12:39 ehird: ? 21:12:57 Deewiant: you can pronounce each sound individually, but when you try and run them together into a word you trip, is my experience 21:13:05 in english, word-initial and stressed-syllable-initial stops like k and t become aspirated, and syllable-initial intervocalic /t/ turns into something roughly like an /r/ 21:13:50 furthermore, english doesnt have pure [o], it has a diphthong, and english stress patterns disallow uniform stress on this word as well 21:14:12 ehird: IME that only happens with tongue-twisty phrases 21:14:14 psygnisfive: damn, english really hates this word 21:14:18 Deewiant: your 21:14:22 the most natural stress pattern for me is 'ku.la.tu.ka.,la.to 21:14:22 *you're 21:14:23 finnish 21:14:26 you can pronounce anything 21:14:27 psygnisfive, hm 21:14:28 :-P 21:14:33 where ku has primary stress and la has secondary stress 21:14:59 Deewiant, IMO kulatukalato IS tongue-twisty 21:15:13 also, english often reduces unstressed vowels 21:15:34 AnMaster: Not IMO :-P 21:16:05 AnMaster: Nah. 21:16:08 ais523: i get it down to otukatula 21:16:14 pikhq, brain-twisty? 21:16:16 Might just be because I've got a bit of experience with Japanese, though. 21:16:27 SO, natural pronunciation of this word would not be [kulatukalato] in english but rather ['kʰu:lətukə,la:ɾoʊ] 21:16:29 oerjan, did you mean AnMaster? 21:16:33 ais523: hm minimal eodermdroming is probably related to eulerian graphs... 21:16:36 AnMaster: no 21:16:38 AnMaster: no he didn't 21:16:48 oerjan: it's probably related to something 21:16:54 I can't see what he is replying to 21:16:55 sorry, there'd be secondary stress on tu as well 21:16:55 * AnMaster looks 21:16:56 eulerian graphs seems likely 21:16:58 psygnisfive: is this the only language in the world where you can just put the word in brackets to get the IPA? :P 21:17:00 so ['kʰu:lətʰu:kə,la:ɾoʊ] 21:17:07 you need to figure out which edges to double 21:17:14 ehird: what do you mean? 21:17:22 psygnisfive: kulatukalato → [kulatukalato] 21:17:29 right but what language? 21:17:35 the one kulatukalato is in 21:17:48 ais523: for my program it was easy because most of the graphs were trees, you just need to find the two farthest points 21:17:49 oh. well, it depends a lot on your font, actually 21:17:51 :p 21:18:11 psygnisfive, " SO, natural pronunciation of this word would not be [kulatukalato] in english but rather ['kʰu:lətukə,la:ɾoʊ]" <-- is that k rased to the power of h? 21:18:20 no, k^h means aspirated k 21:18:28 psygnisfive: English pronunciation not only sounds but also looks ugly, I see 21:18:30 ehird: There's a language that is written soley in the subset of IPA that describes its phonemes. 21:18:30 how do you manage that 21:18:39 wait 21:18:44 is that the normal k sound? 21:18:52 Deewiant: your native language surely is similar. 21:18:53 define normal k sound 21:18:54 Normal English k 21:18:57 psygnisfive: finnish 21:19:04 so gray area I'd imagine 21:19:11 anmaster, what do you mean normal k sound? 21:19:24 As does Toki pona... 21:19:34 psygnisfive: I haven't actually seen pretty much any of that extended IPA (I even forget what it's called) so I can't say 21:19:36 also ehird: what i mean is, the font im using has "a" as a simple lowercase "cursive" a 21:19:45 ah 21:19:46 which is the IPA symbol for the english a 21:19:48 s/graph/path/ 21:19:56 but the spanish a is denoted in ipa with the times-new-roman kind of a 21:20:02 with the little tail over its head 21:20:18 my font doesnt distinguish them, nor do most people in writing, but ipa does 21:20:18 There are code points for all the variants, you don't have to rely on fonts :-P 21:20:20 so it depends on your font 21:20:47 ['kʰu:lətʰu:kə,lɑ:ɾoʊ], to be certain. 21:21:09 psygnisfive: how's that recording going 21:21:10 deewiant: extended IPA? none of this is extended IPA. 21:21:14 ehird: hush you! 21:21:43 psygnisfive: Isn't ʰ one of those things that's normally omitted 21:21:50 no 21:21:53 never. 21:21:58 Meh. 21:21:59 hmm, it seems that bing is active already 21:22:02 and live.com already redirects there 21:22:02 aspiration is a standard thing in many many world languages 21:22:32 http://www.bing.com/search?q=how+is+babby+formed&go=&form=QBLH&filt=all 21:22:36 it looks exactly like google. 21:22:38 english has aspiration in certain contexts, but not the kind that distinguishes sounds, korean and hindi have phonemic aspiration 21:22:52 so hindi and korean k^h is distinct from just k 21:23:51 psygnisfive: I'm thinking of broad vs. narrow transcription 21:24:14 well but then you're delving into the realm of phonology 21:24:17 i think in norwegian aspiration and voicing is so tight together you could almost choose which of them you consider primary... 21:24:30 broad transcriptions are broad on in that they're phonemically influenced 21:24:36 that is 21:24:50 psygnisfive: :| 21:25:13 Things are only distinguished according to what speakers of the language distinguish, with broad transcriptions... 21:25:23 if i write [kæt] as a broad phonetic transcription of english "cat", you /understand/ that the k is aspirated, and im just being lazy. 21:26:18 its not a tight, phonetic transcription, there's influence from phonology in how you're transcribing it 21:26:24 which is fine, because in context you understand this 21:26:52 but when, for instance, you're doing research into the phonology of a language, especially an unfamiliar language, broad transcriptions are impossible 21:27:03 because you dont know what sounds the speakers distinguish and what they dont 21:27:30 * ehird kicks psygnisfive 21:27:34 Quite. 21:27:41 so if you're not sufficiently close to the acoustics/articulation, you might transcribe two words as [kæt], and the speakers can hear a difference but you're not noting it down 21:27:44 ehird, stop kicking me 21:27:45 :| 21:27:48 * ehird kicks psygnisfive 21:28:02 ok fine, keep kicking me 21:28:11 no. 21:28:15 :( 21:28:17 :D 21:28:52 psygnisfive: RECORD IT AND I'LL KICK/UNKICK YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR WISHES 21:28:56 MWAHAHAHA 21:29:22 i have the recording, but im NOT GONNA SEND IT 21:29:24 NYA NYA 21:29:38 * ehird kicks psygnisfive 21:29:43 ehird does it wrong :( 21:29:47 /kick psygnisfive 21:30:02 oh noes D: 21:30:24 SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEND 21:31:36 patience, young padawan 21:32:06 http://www.wellnowwhat.net/transfers/kulatukalato.wav 21:32:11 warning: gayness. 21:32:40 thats with your even stress as well. 21:33:19 psygnisfive: in the strict pronunciation, the u is not oo enough 21:33:34 psygnisfive: What's the star in u̟ 21:33:43 unfortunately english "oo" is not [u] 21:33:45 Or whatever that blob there is 21:34:01 psygnisfive: that's ok, I can sacrifice strict IPAness because the u in your strict one sounds ugly :) 21:34:02 not smooth 21:34:03 its really more like [ʊu] or [ʊw] 21:34:17 i'd prefer [ʊu] I think 21:34:39 deewiant: the + under a symbol means "advanced tongue root", i believe 21:34:53 either that, or it means "fronted" 21:35:05 Cheers; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_tongue_root it seems to be indeed 21:35:09 OH MY FUCKING GOD 21:35:13 LucasArts today announced two Monkey Island projects in the works for the Xbox 360, Wii and PC. 21:35:13 Starting in just a few weeks, Telltale will première the Tales of Monkey Island; a game featuring a new epic storyline that will unfold in five monthly episodes on PC and WiiWare. 21:35:18 THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE 21:35:23 yah, fronted, sorry. 21:35:29 atr is with a left-tack 21:35:31 IT WAS MATHEMATICALLY IMPROVED THAT LUCASARTS WOULD NEVER MAKE A NEW MONKEY ISLAND GAME IN LIKE 2004 21:35:42 joy to the world \o/ 21:35:42 | 21:35:42 >\ 21:36:00 psygnisfive: I can't see the difference in my font :-P 21:36:06 well 21:36:07 But you say that's a right-tack 21:36:12 ATR is -| 21:36:17 RTR is |- 21:36:24 and "advanced"/"fronted" is + 21:36:44 OH MY GOD 21:36:46 RON GILBERT IS INVOLVED 21:36:51 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:36:51 WHAT THE *FUCK* 21:37:01 Anyway, that's what the English /u/ is IMO, not [u] 21:37:15 u_+? 21:37:31 or atr u? 21:37:37 More forward u 21:37:52 so u_+ (using sampa, sice .. fuck ipa for now :p) 21:38:08 yeah, no, its not really actually. maybe in some dialects, i dont know 21:38:11 ........... 21:38:25 but in standard english /u/ is [Uu] or [Uw] 21:38:52 GregorR-L: what 21:39:22 \o| \o/ |o/ \o| \o/ |o/ 21:39:23 | | | | | | 21:39:23 |\ |\ |\ /´\ |\ /´\ 21:39:33 psygnisfive: This just came to mind from when I tried to argue that Finnish 'kuu' /ku:/ and English 'moon' /mu:n/ have completely different /u/ sounds. 21:39:34 psygnisfive: Fuck SAMPA, I've got functioning Unicode now. 21:39:54 (Not much of an argument since almost nobody here knows what 'kuu' is supposed to sound like, but anyway.) 21:39:55 deewiant: some dialects of english, some british ones i think, use [Iu] or [Iw] for /u/! 21:40:12 pikhq: so do i, but in these fonts the diacritics are hard to see 21:40:31 psygnisfive: Þy font ſucks. 21:40:45 deewiant: sure they're different, english /u/ isnt [u] 21:40:57 psygnisfive: can you rerecord with pure ipa but the u being more oo 21:40:58 pikhq: "suckeÞ" 21:41:01 pikhq: _I_ can see it, but im being a) lazy in typing, and b) kind to deewiant 21:41:11 ehird: no. 21:41:14 pikhq: o̘ o̙ 21:41:15 do it yourself 21:41:16 oerjan: ſuckeþ 21:41:22 pikhq: Those both look pretty much identical here :-P 21:41:39 ʃuckeθ 21:41:48 Deewiant: Hmm. Sure enough, they do. Wow. 21:41:51 which isnt "sucketh" at all but who cares :D 21:41:54 !userinterps 21:41:55 psygnisfive: i can't say it 21:41:55 Installed user interpreters: bc bct bfbignum chiqrsx9p choo dc echo google gregor hello num ook plot rot13 slashes yodawg 21:41:55 psygnisfive: Quite, and I wanted to figure out what the correct narrow transcriptions would be and somewhat failed. 21:41:58 * pikhq should up the points on this some day 21:41:58 * oerjan wonders why the capital one looks _smaller_ 21:42:01 !show bct 21:42:02 bf (sending via DCC) 21:42:04 It helps that dialects matter. 21:42:15 Hahah, bitwise cyclic tag. 21:42:39 oerjan, capital eth? 21:42:45 Þ vs þ you mean? 21:42:49 yes 21:43:04 because capital letters in english never have descenders or ascenders and so are fixed to line height 21:43:15 i'spose 21:43:17 while lowercase eth has a descender and so is line-height + descender height 21:43:27 Hmm, I should obtain a microphone. 21:43:39 deewiant: might i recommend a logitech usb microphone. 21:43:44 its a good mic. 21:43:46 No, you might not! 21:43:50 Step one: Car-jack someone to get to Radio Shack ... 21:43:53 But you also might, and you did. 21:44:19 GregorR-L: Radio shack? Never been to a country where it operates, I don't think :-P 21:44:25 Lucky you. 21:44:38 I once went in there and left after they told me they only sold Windows cable. 21:44:40 radio shack can be pretty cool 21:44:40 Err 21:44:41 I once went in there and left after they told me they only sold Windows cables. 21:44:49 :-D 21:44:55 Windows-only USB cable 21:44:59 but only the ones that have lots of electronic hardware and stuff you can meddle with 21:45:14 cables and housing and switches and all sorts of stuff 21:45:16 psygnisfive: Those still exist? 21:45:20 psygnisfive: It appears that logitech makes quite a bit of microphones 21:45:40 GregorR-L: well, yes and no. all the radioshacks like that are really only like that in the very far back where hardly anyone ever goes. 21:45:48 But I guess you were talking about the "USB Desktop Microphone", which'd set me back 22 €. 21:45:53 yes. 21:46:03 adk, unpacking. 21:46:07 Alternatively I could get a "Dialog 320" for 7 €. 21:46:14 ping me if you're talking to me. 21:46:32 Not knowing anything about microphones really helps here. 21:46:46 OTOH, if I find things out I'll probably end up wanting a 200 € one. 21:47:44 im skeptical of expensive mics 21:47:48 mine sounds great 21:47:56 Deewiant: you only need an expensive mic for audio work 21:47:59 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 21:48:02 and ive heard wonderful sound out of simple phones 21:48:02 Yours looks expensive from where I'm standing :-P 21:48:06 so i dont know 21:48:18 You are reading "Return to Dark Castle", a choose-your-own adventure. You read about your character seeing a path to the dark castle! The book informs you that to run away, you must turn to page 63, and to enter the castle, you must turn to page 22. 21:48:18 To turn to page 63, turn to page 35. To turn to page 22, turn to page 3. 21:48:30 Below that there are 9 mics, above it there are 2 before the prices start hitting 50 € and up 21:48:34 by expensive i mean like 21:48:44 by expensive i mean like £800 mics 21:48:44 And I don't know jack about the differences between any of these. 21:48:52 GregorR-L: :D 21:48:55 or anything over £40 21:48:58 GregorR-L: :D 21:49:24 GregorR-L: :D 21:49:32 lament! HOW IS YOUR BANANA 21:49:37 O_O 21:49:40 BY BANANA 21:49:42 I MEAN 21:49:43 GRAPEFRUIT 21:50:37 Deewiant: http://www.dealextreme.com/products.dx/category.323 21:50:39 ehird: My spoon is too big. 21:50:49 I AM A BANANA 21:50:49 My spoon is too big! 21:50:51 pikhq: [insert whole of Rejected] 21:50:55 PARTY'S OVER 21:50:58 EVERYONE GO HOME 21:51:02 * pikhq needs to watch that again 21:51:06 * ehird tentatively preörders the new monkey island 21:51:16 i feel like I am a child again! wait. 21:51:47 Þou art? 21:52:26 * pikhq creätes odd pronoünciätiöns by adding diäresis everywhere that he can. 21:52:55 pikhq: s/pronounciation/pronunciation/ 21:52:58 * GregorR-L doesn't know how to pronounce "non" 21:53:04 pikhq: pre-order 21:53:07 → preörder 21:53:22 Deëwiänt: Shut up. 21:53:25 But eo isn't a diphtong :P 21:53:29 Err 21:53:30 ehird: I know that. I just am having some fun. 21:53:37 "Diphthong" 21:54:06 Dip-thong 21:54:09 Ahahahah. Noün. 21:54:25 That makes me smile. With gleë. 21:55:15 gleë is the weirdest yet 21:55:23 Gleh-eh 21:55:24 Weïrd. 21:55:27 did you know that the reason english lacks diacritics is not because it has no use for them 21:55:30 Weh-ird 21:55:32 psygnisfive: dude 21:55:37 we know what the ¨ is for in english 21:55:38 psygnisfive: English does NOT lack diacritics. 21:55:39 Wierd 21:55:40 and it has it dammit 21:55:42 Mostly because "gle" is somewhat unpronouncable 21:55:43 quite the contrary, english has over a dozen vowels, we could use some diacritics 21:55:44 we love it 21:55:46 preëmptive 21:55:54 Don't be so nave. 21:55:55 psygnisfive: Dude, we're in the middle of a conversatiön aboüt English diäcritics. 21:56:05 i know, but you're wrong, english has no diacritics in standard usage :P 21:56:14 pikhq: How the hell do you pronounce "conversatee-on" P 21:56:14 ¨ doesn't really count 21:56:15 *:P 21:56:23 They're in use. Just not the norm. 21:56:26 psygnisfive: I always write nave. 21:56:26 because noone really uses it in normal orthography 21:56:35 and even when people do, its precisely in that word 21:56:39 GregorR-L: naîve? 21:56:39 naïve 21:56:40 psygnisfive: Fine, then. Rôle? 21:56:40 GregorR-L: conversayshee-on 21:56:54 now granted, english might borrow the diacritics from other languages 21:56:56 thats one thing 21:57:06 psygnisfive: None of the examples we've given are borrowed. 21:57:13 but i mean real proper diacritics, not just orthographic holdovers from borrowings. 21:57:18 GregorR-L: I gave one. 21:57:21 uh, GregorR-L naive is borrowed. 21:57:23 Rôle. 21:57:24 pikhq: HOW DARE OYU 21:57:32 i dont know this word rôle 21:57:45 "A role (sometimes spelled rôle as in French) or a social role is a set of connected behaviors, rights and obligations as conceptualized by actors in a social situation. It is an expected behavior in a given individual social status and social position. It is vital to both functionalist and interactionist understandings of society." 21:57:48 BORROWING 21:57:49 moving along 21:57:51 HOW DARE YOÜ! 21:57:57 naïve hails from French naïf 21:58:20 Haïls, yoü meän? 21:58:27 No, I don't. 21:58:34 the reason english lacks diacritics is because the printed orthography was designed back in the 1400s or whatever by a guy who was trained by the dutch printmakers 21:58:37 Deewiant: So yeah, if you want a mega-cheap microphone, the site I linked is goody :P 21:58:42 dutch, ofcourse, lacks diacritics as well 21:58:51 psygnisfive: For Middle English, no less. 21:59:02 psygnisfive: That's because Dutch is English pronounced with a funny accent. 21:59:06 and so we get out diacriticlessness from dutch diacriticlessness 21:59:10 GregorR-L: god isnt it 21:59:14 Goöd. 21:59:17 and FORGET west frisian 21:59:28 west frisian has very english-like phonology 21:59:44 GregorR-L: Yeah, but again I have no idea if they're any good or not :-P 21:59:44 infact, west frisian is, aside from the daughter languages, the closest relative of english 21:59:59 I can get random-ass mics here as well 22:00:02 So, other than Scots etc. 22:00:06 Deewiant: The reviews on that page are uncensored. If a product is crap, the reviews will SAY its crap. 22:00:15 english and the frisian languages form a language group called Anglo-Frisian 22:00:48 * GregorR-L doesn't know how to pronounce "noün" <-- try a peter sellers impression 22:01:11 * pikhq looks up West Frisian. 22:01:13 hey, ehird, are you able to locate dialects? 22:01:17 no 22:01:21 :\ 22:01:32 so if i gave you an audio sample you couldnt be like 22:01:33 Holy fuck. It's like English that went through a different vowel shift. 22:01:42 GregorR-L: It's not so much 'is it crap' as it is 'how does it compare to non-random offerings'. 22:01:48 "oh hes from leeds" or whatever? 22:02:02 pikhq: its like english that didnt go though a vowel shift at all. 22:02:40 bread butter and green cheese is good english and good frees :D 22:03:00 psygnisfive: well maybe cockney i could detect 22:03:06 lame 22:03:07 well 22:03:08 psygnisfive: Nah, it seems to have had a few vowels shifted. 22:03:16 But a *few* vowels, not a Great Vowel Shift. 22:03:21 "noün" -> "no-youun"? 22:03:21 the dialect im curious about is charles stross's 22:03:26 (pronounced) 22:03:34 Or am I horribly wrong? 22:03:53 stross pronounces /iɹ/ as /ɛ:/ which is very interesting 22:04:11 so "year" is like "yearn" minus the n for him 22:04:28 whereas for mean "year" is "ear" with a y at the front 22:04:46 psygnisfive: the vowel in "year" is shorter than in "ear" for me 22:04:50 but otherwise I pronounce much like you 22:05:02 sure, it might be shorted, thats fine 22:05:07 length isnt important 22:05:11 its the quality that is 22:05:34 that's what SHE said 22:05:47 or perhaps he, in your case 22:06:07 he says you're a fag 22:06:27 i agree with him on that. 22:06:34 http://twitter.com/account/profile_image/levarburton?hreflang=en 22:06:42 is it just me or does levar burton look weird without the visor 22:06:54 ignoring the weight hes put on, ofcourse. 22:13:42 * jix_ is writing a bfjoust debugger in javascript 22:13:58 jix_: I was planning to do that, but never got around to it; so you'll likely do better than me 22:13:59 jix_: Swt. 22:14:13 Shall we all race? :P 22:14:26 i already have a working ruby prototype for this one 22:14:29 but it lacks UI 22:14:36 i enjoy the fact that i can completely fuck up vowels, turning /Or\/ into /eIr\/ or something 22:14:45 and all it does is make it sound irish 22:14:46 lol 22:14:46 and then i noticed that with javascript it would be easier to do a nice UI 22:14:47 ais523: an esolang-related anecdote about monkey island: one of the staff at the small company making it is on the esolang wiki 22:15:00 ah, interesting 22:15:00 the wonders of phonology and dialect perception 22:15:02 man 22:15:15 iirc 22:15:24 ehird : Whom! 22:15:28 Slereah_: don't reacll 22:15:29 What is his language? 22:15:33 such a beautiful thing, the phonological mapping 22:16:21 a thong of booty! 22:16:41 oerjan: lawl 22:16:50 hmm 22:16:52 perhaps I'm wrong 22:17:02 ehird: Perhaps your FACE is wrong. 22:18:12 !bf_txtgen Nom nom nom 22:18:14 77 +++++++++++[>+++++++>+++>++++++++++>+<<<<-]>+.>>+.--.<-.>+.+.--.<.>+.+.--.>-. [309] 22:25:07 "Avast, ye scurvy sea-dogs and welcome to the motley crew of the good ship Pre-Order. I'll wager you've got booty on your mangy minds and we here at Telltale don't aim to disappoint you on that score. So lend me your pox-ridden ears and I'll tell you a tale of king's ransom in ill-begotten goods and services that be setting sail in your direction even as we speak!" 22:26:05 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 22:28:29 hrmph.i really want to experiment with a programming language that has type-driven parsing. :| 22:31:33 hmm this would be so much easier if there wasn't (...)*N and a bit easier if there wasn't (...{...}...)%N 22:31:48 jix_: YA I NO 22:32:18 * pikhq finds Western Frysian really interesting still 22:33:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:33:50 pikhq: Add an interpreter for Western Frysian to EgoBot. >_> :P 22:34:16 GregorR-L: I'm not about to do natural language parsing. 22:34:34 what about adding an English language, which just asks in #IRP and waits for the answer? 22:34:47 Even something that understands Western Frisian would be stunning. :p 22:35:06 pikhq: why not? natural language parsing is fun :D 22:35:22 ais523: That reminds me. I should paste some code from CAL in #irp. :p 22:35:33 not now, though 22:35:34 natural language syntax is such a pain in the ass, man 22:35:35 I need to go home 22:35:35 unnatural language processing is easier though 22:35:56 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:38:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:40:49 Okay, I found the single most evil Osmosian line. 22:41:10 "The osmosian font source is a hex string equal to ' ... Cue hundreds of lines of hex. 22:43:28 lol 22:44:20 OSMOOOOOSIAN! 22:49:56 !addinterp swedish sh chef | xargs echo 22:49:56 Interpreter swedish installed. 22:50:03 !swedish Now I can speak Swedish! 22:50:05 Noo I cun speek Svedeesh! Bork Bork Bork! 22:50:56 :D 22:50:58 !swedish Oh yeah? 22:50:59 Oh yeeh? Bork Bork Bork! 22:51:02 !addinterp godblessamerica sh dubya | xargs echo 22:51:02 !swedish derp derp 22:51:03 Interpreter godblessamerica installed. 22:51:03 derp derp 22:51:12 !godblessamerica I can also speak American. 22:51:13 I can also speak American. 22:51:16 ... 22:51:20 !swedish Oh yeah pinch my nipples 22:51:21 Oh yeeh peench my neepples 22:51:26 Hawt 22:51:30 But needs more bork 22:51:48 I didn't write it :P 22:52:35 !swedish a e i o u 22:52:36 a i i oo u 22:52:57 !swedish bork bork bork 22:52:57 burk bork bork 22:53:16 !swedish Something swedish 22:53:16 Sumetheeng svedeesh 22:53:24 !swedish Sumetheeng svedeesh 22:53:24 Soomezeeeng sfedeesh 22:53:31 !swedish Soomezeeeng sfedeesh 22:53:32 Suumezeeeng sffedeesh 22:53:32 !swedish En riktig svensk mening då? 22:53:33 !addinterp brit sh cockney | xargs echo 22:53:33 En reektig sfensk meneeng då? Bork Bork Bork! 22:53:33 Interpreter brit installed. 22:53:40 !brit Hello, world! 22:53:41 /usr/bin/xargs: unmatched single quote; by default quotes are special to xargs unless you use the -0 option 22:53:44 Err 22:53:58 !swedish Suumezeeeng sffedeesh 22:53:58 Soooomezeeeng sffffedeesh 22:54:10 !swedish Soooomezeeeng sffffedeesh 22:54:11 Suuuumezeeeng sffffffffedeesh 22:54:16 sfffffffffffffffffffff 22:54:23 Good luck pronouncing that 22:54:31 !brit Hello, world! 22:54:32 'Allo, world! Right! 22:56:11 !swedish Hey AnMaster, we can understand each other now! 22:56:12 Hey UnMester, ve-a cun understund iech oozeer noo! Bork Bork Bork! 22:56:21 heh 22:56:26 UnMester 22:56:49 fungot, say things 22:56:50 Slereah_: it has those wierd angles? whats wrong with you! :) 22:56:59 !swedish it has those wierd angles? whats wrong with you! :) 22:57:00 it hes thuse-a veeerd ungles? vhets vrung veet yuoo! :) 22:57:05 firefly why "good luck"? 22:57:12 "sfffffffffffffffff" 22:57:17 somezeng sfedeesh is perfectly fine in english. 22:57:31 di eggduche 22:57:49 More, fungot 22:57:49 FireFly: oh really? let's see your sources then, hate her or love her songs!! he sounds like they're attempting to), this movie 22:57:51 "sf" is a perfectly acceptable consonant cluster in english. 22:58:04 What are some good command-line chatbots? 22:58:09 Modern, learning ones. 22:58:11 Fungot, say something that would be hilarious in swedish 23:00:49 What does fungot use? 23:00:50 GregorR-L: first no? ::p a cool one in it 23:00:56 22:35 pikhq: ais523: That reminds me. I should paste some code from CAL in #irp. :p 23:00:58 CAL? rings a bell 23:03:06 22:56 GregorR-L: !swedish Hey AnMaster, we can understand each other now! 23:03:06 22:56 EgoBot: Hey UnMester, ve-a cun understund iech oozeer noo! Bork Bork Bork! 23:03:09 that is so not british english 23:03:14 GregorR-L: can commands interact with irc? 23:03:19 ehird: Yes. 23:03:27 ehird: Wait, define "interact" 23:03:34 GregorR-L: can they join another channel, say something, then look at responses 23:03:42 Not easily :P 23:09:08 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 23:10:18 aw, one cannot just download the kooky-bot 23:11:45 -!- coppro has joined. 23:15:01 tetha: ? 23:15:33 GregorR-L: kooky is a chatterbot based on markov chains. it's pretty hilarious with very large sets of data 23:15:52 I'm feeding the entire #esoteric log into MegaHAL. 23:16:08 ^style 23:16:09 Available: agora alice c64 darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* 23:16:12 GregorR-L: boring 23:16:14 fungot already does it 23:16:14 ehird: i'm glad to see a face in the nalts household) it has to do with anything? 23:16:17 or close enough 23:16:25 GregorR-L: and we've had dedicated markov bots before 23:16:28 and also optbot 23:16:59 ehird: Yeah I know, but I want to add something to EgoBot and I can't think of anything else to do :P 23:17:50 Yeäh, I can seë how that'd be hard to think of. 23:18:21 GregorR-L: [[^irp Say "Hello".]] → EgoBot in #irp says [[Say "EGOBOT48572", then a space, followed by the results of the following: Say "Hello".]], waits for response with that unique ticket for, say, 30 minutes, then gives back the reply or timeout 23:18:41 someone suggested basically that before 23:18:47 (thus my question about commands interacting with IRC) 23:18:59 ehird: That's dumb :P 23:19:09 GregorR-L: why? 23:19:12 It's an IRP interpreter! 23:19:44 So's your FACE. 23:20:09 An IRP interpreter, or dumb? 23:20:18 Both 8-D 23:20:58 I'm feeling evul today :\ 23:21:04 Or, yesterday 23:21:31 same thing really 23:21:53 ehird: Yeah I know, but I want to add something to EgoBot and I can't think of anything else to do :P 23:21:56 !help 23:21:56 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 23:21:59 ah 23:22:04 good work 23:22:06 bf_txtgen is the only general command? :D 23:22:08 [00:21:31] same thing really 23:22:10 Not for me 23:22:12 wait 23:22:16 If you were refering to the time 23:22:18 ehird: I couldn't think of anywhere to put it :P 23:22:27 is !bf_txtgen general 23:22:32 that makes no sense 23:22:34 must be! 23:22:35 :P 23:22:40 GregorR-L: language 23:22:42 or 23:22:44 make a new section: utilities 23:22:48 GregorR, ^ 23:22:53 ehird: For only one utility? 23:22:59 GregorR-L: Why not! 23:23:06 ehird: Write me three more utilities :P 23:23:12 everything needs a utility-box for stuff that is too hard to put somewhere meaningful 23:23:34 Why is #IRP full of people not present here 23:23:36 GregorR-L: Add scramble/unscramble from fungot in there 23:23:36 ehird: what s the name of the accident you're talking about there ex husbands. 23:23:42 Slereah_: The uncultured swine. 23:23:50 swines 23:23:52 swini 23:24:10 ^scramble eggs 23:24:11 egsg 23:24:18 ^unscramble egsg 23:24:19 eggs 23:24:33 ^scramble some stuff 23:24:33 sm tffuseo 23:24:34 ^scramble ffff 23:24:34 ffff 23:24:46 ^unscramble ffff 23:24:46 ffff 23:24:46 Ah 23:24:48 IT WORKS 23:24:51 :D 23:25:17 GregorR-L: 23:25:19 ^show scramble 23:25:19 >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 23:25:20 ^show unscramble 23:25:21 >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>] 23:25:25 ^scramble scramble 23:25:25 srmlebac 23:25:27 ^show srmlebac 23:25:28 >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 23:25:30 ^unscramble unscramble 23:25:31 uenlsbcmra 23:25:33 ^show uenlsbcmra 23:25:34 !userinterp scramble bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 23:25:34 >,[>,]<[<]>[.[-]>[>]<[.[-]<[<]]>] 23:25:38 GregorR-L: UTILITY 23:25:39 !addinterp scramble bf >>,[>,]<[<]>[.>>]<[>>]<2[.<2] 23:25:40 Interpreter scramble installed. 23:25:41 not userinterp :P 23:25:50 ehird: Such a waste of effort to do it that way :P 23:25:55 add combinator logic on strings, such that CIMLHello World outputs some mess :) 23:25:59 GregorR-L: Make userinterps categorizable 23:26:10 !delinterp scramble 23:26:11 Interpreter scramble deleted. 23:26:45 I'll add the ability to send input to userinterps. 23:26:50 (Those that have some kind of delimiter) 23:27:01 Though I'm not sure how :P 23:27:21 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out). 23:31:35 GregorR-L: simply append the delimiter... 23:31:51 oerjan: No, that's not the difficult part. 23:32:07 oerjan: Figuring out how I want users to tell EgoBot that is the hard part. 23:32:24 actually that was what i was answering 23:32:34 simply append the delimiter 23:32:38 ... to what? 23:32:43 that's the solution to everything 23:32:45 to the program 23:32:46 simply append the delimiter 23:33:02 as in, include it 23:33:15 oerjan: !addinterp name language code 23:33:27 oerjan: Where does the delimiter go. Where does it /not/ go. 23:33:32 yes, and code ends with the delimiter 23:33:39 oerjan: Well that just makes no sense. 23:33:48 What is EgoBot written in? 23:33:48 sure it makes sense 23:33:55 FireFly: Various. 23:33:59 !info 23:33:59 EgoBot is a bot for running programs in esoteric programming languages. If you'd like to add support for your language to EgoBot, check out the source via mercurial at https://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ . Cheers and patches (preferably hg bundles) can be sent to Richards@codu.org , PayPal donations can be sent to AKAQuinn@hotmail.com , complaints can be sent to /dev/null 23:34:01 Well, the main bot 23:34:08 for bf, for example, that means you just cat together the code and the input 23:34:09 C and shell 23:34:16 Okay 23:34:25 oerjan: I'm talking about input /to/ userinterps. 23:34:31 GregorR-L: is that paypal donation thing serious :P 23:34:40 ehird: If you feel like donating it is ;) 23:34:47 easy 23:34:52 GregorR-L: how about 1 cent 23:35:12 just separate code and input with a null 23:35:25 coppro: What about languages where null are legit code? 23:35:45 GregorR-L: you can't send a null over irc 23:35:46 so it's bunk 23:35:54 ehird: You can send a null over http 23:35:58 true. 23:36:10 those languages suck :P 23:36:12 but, ew, nulls 23:36:30 ehird, coppro: Also, it would suck because it would be nice to use an interpreter as-written, many of which use '!' 23:36:34 (For e.g. BF) 23:36:40 butt 23:36:47 GregorR-L: hm oh right, for adding input to userinterp programs you want to add the programs themselves as nested userinterps 23:36:56 oerjan: Exactly 23:37:18 and when you do _that_, you just put the delimiter at the end of the code 23:37:46 and when running the nested userinterp, you just concatenate the code with the input 23:37:52 GregorR-L: oh btw it would be nice if the bfjoust report file wouldn't be overwritten until the new one is complete 23:37:57 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:38:07 I suppose one possible way would be: !addinterp name lang separator code separator input ? 23:38:32 oerjan: The userinterp is sent as an /argument/ to the real interp, the input to that is sent as ... well, input. The delimiter is not on the userinterp's code, it's on its input 23:38:53 jix_: Bleh bleh bleh everybody's complained about that one, get on the bandwagon :P 23:39:04 GregorR-L: haha didn't know 23:39:17 GregorR-L: nested userinterps need to use a different convention 23:42:03 oerjan: Let me illustrate with an example. I write a BF interpreter in BF. I save it as bf.bf. I run egobfi8 bf.bf. Putting a '!' at the end of bf.bf is totally useless, since the BF code is sent as input to egobfi8 bf.bf. However, what delimiter is necessary is a property of bf.bf. So it's necessary to provide with bf.bf the particular delimiter, but it actually goes as input. 23:42:36 GregorR-L: What are you drying toa dd 23:42:38 *to add 23:42:43 um... i see 23:43:43 ehird: Some way of specifying for userinterps what delimiter they use between code and input. 23:43:57 GregorR-L: What? Why 23:44:03 That makes no sense, I mean what? 23:44:06 ehird: So you can write userinterps in userinterps. 23:44:18 ... and has anyone ever wanted to do this? 23:44:27 Not yet :P 23:44:31 GregorR-L: Just add a delimiter argument to addinterp 23:44:42 ehird: But it can't just be part of !addinterp, since not all userinterps have any such delimiter. 23:45:06 GregorR-L: add a special value 23:45:10 "none" 23:45:11 [00:38:06] I suppose one possible way would be: !addinterp name lang separator code separator input ? 23:45:25 I didn't notice that. 23:45:25 FireFly: !addinput lang separator code, you mean. 23:45:27 E.g. the separator could be defined for each new interpreter 23:45:30 *addinterp 23:45:35 FireFly: !addinterp name lang separator code, you mean. 23:45:35 then 23:45:42 Uh, I suppose 23:45:42 !addinterp name2 name none blah 23:45:43 Interpreter name does not exist! 23:45:45 !name2 butt 23:45:49 → 23:46:00 lang name 'separator' name 23:46:01 er 23:46:02 lang name 'separator' name2 23:46:03 or w/e 23:46:28 Nom nom nom. 23:47:55 ^scramble bob 23:47:56 bbo 23:48:02 ^scramble ab 23:48:02 ab 23:48:06 lulz 23:48:45 ^scramble abcde 23:48:45 acedb 23:49:04 the algorithm: 23:49:09 write letter, write next letter, move to middle. 23:49:16 reverse: take letter, take end letter, append to result. 23:49:18 ^scramble abbbb 23:49:19 abbbb 23:49:33 ^scramble abbba 23:49:33 ababb 23:49:43 ^unscramble abcdefg 23:49:43 agbfced 23:49:50 ^scramble 0123456789 23:49:50 0246897531 23:50:06 Really, the unscramble one 23:50:08 ^scramble abbib 23:50:08 abbib 23:50:30 I think it was the VG ("quite good") exercise on a test a previous class had 23:50:39 FireFly: Really? 23:50:40 But.. in Java 23:50:44 Yup 23:50:49 I "invented" scramble a year or two ago. 23:50:56 Unscramble just being its decoder. 23:51:04 It's a very elegant method. 23:51:17 Also, it repeats itself ... after length factorial iterations, I think. oerjan? 23:51:20 Or was it more subtle than that 23:51:42 "1,2,3,4,5,6 blir 1,6,2,5,3,4 oberoende på ursprungsordningen" 23:51:52 Ignore the swedish, it should be pretty clear anyways 23:52:00 yeah 23:52:32 I'm not really nervous for my programming test tomorrow :D 23:52:36 some factor of length factorial 23:52:55 there was some sequence in the integer encyclopedia 23:53:37 the numbers fit, although it wasn't immediately obvious why the definition should... 23:53:47 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:54:03 Well, I just copied the example, with a more elaborate description above it 23:54:54 Uh, ah, nvm 23:56:38 By the way, the highest grade exercise for the same test is: Create a class representing a dice, it's constructor taking the amount of sides as a parameter. Create a method to throw this dice a number of times, returning an int array of it's results." 23:56:52 That's it, and we have 100 minutes to do it 23:58:40 That's... Trivial. 23:58:54 Indeed :P 23:59:17 I'm actually considering doing the exercise we get in both Java and some esolang, if it's as trivial as that 23:59:57 FireFly: And writing the esolang interpreter in Java, of course :P 2009-06-02: 00:00:05 FireFly: wow that's trivial 00:00:13 Maybe, if I have the time for it, GregorR 00:00:15 -L 00:00:15 also, it's die 00:00:16 not dice 00:00:19 Ah 00:00:24 ^scramble abcdefg 00:00:25 acegfdb 00:00:48 ^scramble ^scramble 00:00:48 ^cabelmrs 00:01:08 ^unscramble ^cabelmrs 00:01:09 ^scramble 00:01:09 class Die; attr_accessor :sides; def initialize(sides); @sides = sides; end; def roll(n); (1..n).map {random n + 1}; end end 00:01:11 *end end 00:01:17 ^scramble abbdbbd 00:01:17 um 00:01:18 abbdbdb 00:01:20 Aw, it doesn't listen to itself 00:01:25 I wasn't sure, so I guess I should've written dic?e 00:01:32 ^scramble !swedish butt 00:01:32 !wds uttbhies 00:01:44 ^unscramble !wds uttbhies 00:01:45 !swedish butt 00:01:45 boott 00:01:49 :D 00:02:03 !swedish ^scramble 00:02:03 ^scremble-a 00:02:07 GregorR-L: add a compose command like lambdabot: 00:02:09 Nah, it no works 00:02:12 !compose a b c d e 00:02:13 → 00:02:15 !b c d e 00:02:18 then, 00:02:20 !a 00:02:23 you could combine like so: 00:02:31 !compose a compose b compose c d input 00:02:39 actually, name it . 00:02:45 !. a . b . c d input 00:02:46 !. a . b 00:02:47 → 00:02:47 Nice 00:02:50 !d input 00:02:52 !c result 00:02:53 Does not compile. 00:02:54 !b result 00:02:57 !a result 00:03:03 and print the result of a only 00:03:10 Not yet, EgoBot, not yet 00:03:26 GregorR-L: So, yeah 00:03:27 . 00:13:04 ^scramble abboblob 00:13:04 abboblob 00:14:30 ^scramble abacaba 00:14:31 aaaabcb 00:14:34 ^help 00:14:34 ^ ; ^def ; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool 00:14:56 pikhq: ... 540p is HD? You're an HD person, so tell me. 00:15:06 ehird: 540p is ED. 00:15:15 gamespot says it's HD :P 00:15:23 Gamespot is full of shit. 00:16:40 ^scramble occacaaac 00:16:41 occacaaac 00:17:53 ^scramble ooccoo 00:17:53 ocooco 00:20:39 Time to sleep, good night 00:20:47 Gentlemen and bots 00:20:57 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:26:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:27:12 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:27:19 ehird: I don't understand, what would compose do? 00:27:29 ehird, pikhq: Hulu says 480p is HD. 00:27:37 GregorR-L: Allow me to explain. 00:27:43 !compose a b c... 00:27:47 where c... means freeform text w/ spaces etc 00:27:48 GregorR-L: Which is bullshit. 00:27:51 GregorR-L: Now, this is like the following: 00:27:54 !b c 00:27:57 result 00:28:00 !a result 00:28:02 result2 00:28:03 -!- coppro has joined. 00:28:05 so 00:28:07 !compose a b c 00:28:09 would print result2 00:28:11 GregorR-L: If 480p is HD, then most DVDs are HD. 00:28:16 GregorR-L: For example. 00:28:25 !compose scramble bf ,[.,]!Hello, world! 00:28:30 Would be the same as !scramble Hello, world! 00:28:37 GregorR-L: If you name compose ., it's more convenient to nest: 00:28:51 !. scramble . underload bf ,[.,]!(Hello, world!)S 00:28:53 Geddit? 00:29:42 ehird: Yeah, I getsit. 00:29:49 Not right now though, I has shuff to do. 00:29:53 Yar 00:29:58 And that's gd, I lieks lawl 00:30:33 wut 00:30:35 lawl 00:31:09 !swedish That is good and I find it to be a genuinely good idea. 00:31:10 Thet is guud und I feend it tu be-a a genooeenely guud idea. Bork Bork Bork! 00:31:21 my brother's girlfriend has what appears to be a dead usb drive (computers aren't recognizing it when it's inserted); might any of you dudes have suggestions for data recovery? 00:32:09 nescience: Your brother is just too embarrassed to tell you he has ED, so he's trying to be coy. His "USB drive" is "dead". 00:32:16 lols 00:32:17 usb flash drive, that is 00:43:25 nescience: usb "flash" drive 00:43:26 -!- inurinternet has quit (No route to host). 00:43:31 it's the "drive" he uses for flashing people 00:47:28 yeah, yeah 00:47:32 floppy drive, hard disk, etc. lols 00:47:36 * nescience shrugs 00:47:43 i referred her to a local data recovery place 00:47:58 doesn't seem like there's anything I can do, other than try to take it apart and resolder connections 00:48:03 which I'm sure they can do better than I can 00:53:50 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 01:00:47 hallo 01:05:20 hi 01:10:41 hoe gaat het met je? 01:11:26 . 01:34:09 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:54:17 -!- inurinternet has joined. 02:21:14 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 02:22:11 -!- Corun has quit. 02:25:38 -!- Leonidas has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:25:38 -!- comex has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:25:39 -!- Slereah_ has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:25:39 -!- ehird has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:25:39 -!- nescience has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:25:39 -!- Ilari has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:26:02 -!- coppro has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:26:02 -!- fizzie has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:26:02 -!- Deewiant has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:26:14 -!- comex has joined. 02:26:14 -!- Leonidas has joined. 02:26:25 -!- myndzi has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:26:45 -!- ehird has joined. 02:26:45 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 02:26:45 -!- nescience has joined. 02:26:45 -!- Ilari has joined. 02:26:48 -!- myndzi has joined. 02:27:08 -!- coppro has joined. 02:27:08 -!- Deewiant has joined. 02:27:08 -!- fizzie has joined. 02:27:15 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 02:29:16 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 02:33:50 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:37:02 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 02:40:48 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has joined. 02:41:29 -!- bsmntbombdood__ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 02:56:15 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:00:07 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:01:04 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 03:18:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Connection timed out). 03:26:23 -!- calamari has joined. 04:02:43 -!- inurinternet has joined. 04:05:27 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 04:28:16 -!- coppro has joined. 04:39:32 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success). 05:15:46 -!- ehird_ has joined. 05:23:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:31:26 -!- Sgeo has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:31:26 -!- coppro has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:31:26 -!- jix_ has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:31:27 -!- kerlo has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:31:28 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 05:32:29 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:33:09 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 05:35:43 -!- jix has joined. 05:35:55 -!- kerlo has joined. 05:37:18 -!- kerlo has quit (Killed by reynolds.freenode.net (Nick collision)). 05:37:19 -!- Sgeo has joined. 05:37:19 -!- coppro has joined. 05:37:19 -!- kerlo has joined. 05:37:25 -!- kerlo_ has joined. 05:38:02 -!- kerlo has quit (Connection reset by peer). 05:39:29 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 05:39:31 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:43:58 -!- ehird has joined. 05:47:43 Exciting conversation going on here. 05:50:43 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:00:21 the netsplits, they kills us 06:06:15 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:17:10 We should look up names of people that haven't logged in to #esoteric for years and hunt them down :P 06:25:56 once upon a time on dalnet 06:26:05 back in ... 99? or so 06:26:11 i was in this channel with some dudes 06:26:17 i got sucked into mudding and neglected irc, when i came back they were gone 06:26:20 (moved to efnet i guess) 06:26:26 about 5-6 years later 06:26:36 someone messaged me up with a quote from that time, asking if i was the same myndzi 06:26:37 :P 06:26:51 cue nostalgia trip 06:28:42 that was back when ehird was, what, 5 years old, ehird? he was probably in here bitching about shit too. 06:29:06 lol. 06:29:09 blah blah blah monads blah blah blah bfjoust blah blah blah 06:29:14 my nick dropped in that time 06:29:15 or whatever. 06:29:22 and a time before that too 06:29:25 so it only goes back to 2000 :( 06:38:46 GregorR-L: did you take the quiz to find out which circle of hell you belong to? 06:38:49 -!- GregorR-L has set topic: once upon a time on dalnet | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=N;O=D. 06:38:56 calamari: Uh, no? 06:39:47 (malbolge) 06:40:00 I think it's malebolge tho, right? 06:43:41 http://www.facebook.com/apps/application.php?id=202157420226 06:45:58 Wow, GregorR is on Facebook. 06:46:31 I'm going to send him a friend salutation, and he's going to deny it because he's not going to know who I am. 06:46:45 No, not a salutation. A solicity. 06:47:05 No, not a solicity. A solicitude. 06:52:13 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:01:17 ............... 07:01:26 calamari: I don't do FaceBook apps. 07:01:37 I barely suffer FaceBook at all. 07:01:51 monads monads monads monads monads bfjoust monads 07:02:47 lament: Imperative imperative imperative imperative fyb imperative. 07:07:54 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"). 07:14:36 lambda, the ultimate sex toy. 07:15:13 Kappa, the penultimate. 07:38:57 a monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad monad BFJOUST BFJOUST 07:41:10 -!- AnMaster has joined. 07:44:58 atm I'm stuck below native resolution on an old backup gfx card 07:45:16 !swedish AnMaster: What happened to your primary card? 07:45:17 UnMester: Vhet heppened tu yuoor preemery cerd? Bork Bork Bork! 07:45:18 so be aware of that I'm rather irritated 07:46:14 1280x1024 on 1400x1050 isn't pretty. Trust me 07:46:44 GregorR-L, fan broke. Going to get the fan replaced today. 07:47:02 * AnMaster doesn't trust himself to to that, thus going to leave it to pros. 07:47:33 !swedish AnMaster: Sounds expensive. 07:47:34 UnMester: Suoonds ixpenseefe-a. Bork Bork Bork! 07:48:26 GregorR-L, I can't read that !swedish one 07:48:28 :P 07:48:32 Neither can anybody :P 07:48:50 GregorR-L, and 450 SEK for both new fan AND replacement of it. 07:48:54 !show swedish 07:48:54 sh chef | xargs echo 07:48:57 um 07:48:58 ok 07:49:11 !google 450 sek in USD 07:49:12 http://google.com/search?q=450+sek+in+USD 07:49:26 Yeah, that's not cheap. 07:50:16 GregorR-L, the card is an AGP based GeForce 7600 GS 07:50:42 the old card I'm using now? 07:50:47 well it is some ATI shit 07:51:04 01:00.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc RV280 [Radeon 9200 PRO] (rev 01) 07:51:06 I guess that 07:51:16 *shrugs* 07:51:21 so low end it doesn't even have a fan! 07:51:29 but just a rather small heatsink 07:52:19 * AnMaster wish this screen could scale 07:52:32 then I could get a high res part in the middle instead 07:52:38 seen that on some laptops for some reason 07:53:09 but can't find any such feature in the menus on this monitor 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:57 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:20:05 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 08:40:30 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:41:24 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:42:53 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 08:58:43 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:15:25 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:15:27 -!- calamari- has joined. 09:15:59 -!- calamari has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:26:29 !swedish meatballs 09:26:30 meetbells 09:27:01 !swedish meetbells 09:27:02 meetbells 09:29:55 !swedish Swedish 09:29:56 Svedeesh 09:30:20 ^^^ This is how Americans think that Swedish people talk. 09:30:51 !swedish über 09:30:52 über 09:50:48 !swedish hello 09:50:48 hellu 09:53:23 -!- psygnisfive has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:53:23 -!- coppro has quit (anthony.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 09:54:15 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 09:54:15 -!- coppro has joined. 10:00:55 -!- Judofyr has joined. 10:06:58 -!- coppro has quit (Connection timed out). 10:08:04 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 10:16:57 -!- calamari- has quit ("Leaving"). 10:37:48 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 11:00:50 GregorR-L, Americans are wrong? 11:01:37 puzzlet, Swedish doesn't have ü... 11:01:42 puzzlet, that is German 11:02:39 GregorR-L, and I can't figure out why it thinks "ball" would turn into "bell"... Rather it might turn into "båll" 11:03:08 that English a sound there is somewhere between our a sound and our å sound. 11:03:40 AnMaster: Go to youtube.com and type "Swedish Chef", and you will understand :P 11:03:55 Well, not understand, but at least see X-P 11:04:40 I know about that 11:05:06 and to me it sounds nothing like how a Swede bad at English would talk 11:05:55 sure, there are sounds in English that aren't in Swedish (and vice versa) but that "chef" one didn't get those right. 11:05:59 I'm told that it's actually a hyper-extreme version of the accents of some areas of Minnesota, where Swedes immigrated and their accent later mixed and warped with the American one. 11:06:13 * AnMaster challenges GregorR-L to pronounce "sju" 11:06:22 a sound not found in English. Or most other languages 11:07:02 Anyway, it's all silliness, and has no bearing on real Swedish people, who to be honest in my experience are taught English from such a young age that they sound mostly like some mix of American and British English accents when speaking English :P 11:07:40 AnMaster: Is "sju" just an "s" followed by "ju"? Or is there some sound we don't have that you can't spell? 11:08:09 ɧ 11:08:11 is the sound 11:08:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palatal-velar_fricative 11:08:50 Gracenotes, so no it isn't 11:09:02 the sj turns into the ɧ sound 11:09:17 "Its place of articulation is disputed (see below)." Wow 11:09:30 and u isn't the English u btw 11:09:37 So even the name "Voiceless palatal-velar fricative" isn't sufficient for me to reproduce it :P 11:09:51 GregorR-L, I never needed a name to pronounce it! 11:09:56 i know, i just wanted to see how it handles 11:10:15 AnMaster: Well, not having any other reference, and knowing in general what all those words mean, at least that gives me a hint. 11:10:32 GregorR-L, which is "I give up"? ;P 11:12:45 Oh you crazy Swedes and your unique fricatives. 11:12:50 At least we Americans have our schwer. 11:13:00 "schwer"? 11:13:02 what is that 11:13:28 aspell doesn't think that word exists 11:13:31 The 'r' sound in "blur" when pronounced with an American accent. 11:13:36 (but then it is set to en-GB so :P) 11:13:47 GregorR-L, the "Texas r"? 11:14:09 Uhhhh, no? In the south they /don't/ have the schwer :P 11:14:16 Well, yes they do, but less often. 11:14:49 GregorR-L, Western movie? Texas sound. They mess up lots of stuff 11:14:50 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:14:57 including r and a 11:15:26 GregorR-L, btw about r sound: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_phonology#.2Fr.2F-realizations_and_the_retroflexes 11:15:33 I like that you're describing an accent as "messing up lots of stuff" :P 11:15:41 -!- puzzlet has joined. 11:15:46 GregorR-L, compared to Oxford English yeah :P 11:16:10 Americans have our own English. 11:16:15 What with Oxford being in England :P 11:16:16 yeah. 11:16:32 GregorR-L, I'm surprised there isn't any "New Oxford" :P 11:16:42 or maybe there is? 11:17:05 Probably somewhere, but not of any significance. 11:17:12 I don't see schwer there. Schwer is a vowel, btw. 11:17:33 schwa? 11:17:42 Schwa is the non-r-colored variant, yes. 11:18:00 Or, more accurately, schwer is the r-colored variant of schwa :P 11:18:13 btw, I can't stand this 1280x1024 on 1400x1050 monitor thing.... So I'm going to be mostly afk 11:18:22 before I get a headache from it 11:18:45 Wow, that's extreme. 11:19:01 GregorR-L, ? 11:19:21 GregorR-L, it is VGA too. Doesn't help. 11:19:26 VGA cable I mean 11:19:32 Ahyuh 11:19:38 Gracenotes, ? 11:19:41 err 11:19:42 GregorR-L, ^ 11:19:50 I was making an affirmative sound :P 11:20:09 GregorR-L, but with the nvidia card, and at native res, vga works just fine 11:20:14 since that is all the monitor has 11:20:52 Analog does not deserve the pariah status it's got. 11:20:59 But it's still pretty bad ^^ 11:21:30 GregorR-L, it is worse on this card for some reason 11:23:10 vga on crt is fine 11:23:17 vga on tft is often really bad 11:23:44 CRT is an analog technology. 11:23:50 yeah 11:23:58 (That was a very "duh" statement) 11:26:08 dvi on crt! 11:26:09 hm 11:26:15 would need conversion in the monitor 11:26:37 as would vga on tft 11:26:49 yes, but that is rather common 11:26:59 while dvi on crt... I never heard of it 11:27:08 jix, anyway vga on tft usually works fine 11:27:21 AnMaster: well i guess with better tfts it's ok 11:27:35 jix, "Acer AL2017" is what I have 11:27:48 and here it depends very much on the graphic card in use 11:27:52 messing with the VGA settings on my monitor produces some awesome results 11:28:00 Asztal, oh? 11:28:16 awesome as in good or awesome as in spectacular? 11:28:34 well, not that great 11:29:23 Asztal, with spectacular I meant "spectacular like holding a magnet close to a CRT" kind of spectacular 11:30:24 it's kind of a shimmering horizontal sine wave, if I look at the right bitmap 11:30:36 (alternating black/white in both directions) 11:31:33 it also does with things on both VGA and DVI if I fill some of the white pixels with black, they look green and blue instead 11:31:40 weird things, that is 11:31:42 Asztal, I always had crystal clear results after one click on auto button displaying a black/white checker pattern with each square the size of 1 pixel 11:32:01 and then I never need to rerun auto unless I change the graphic card as I did now 11:32:58 It's rarely perfect with my monitor, unfortunately, there's usually a blue-green-red gradient 11:34:33 Asztal, never had that issue 11:34:42 Asztal, are you sure you are using a shielded cable btw? 11:35:11 (also I never had such an issue with my previous Syncmaster 171B, which also was vga-only..) 11:37:01 maybe mine is a syncnovice 11:37:16 heh 11:37:55 Asztal, but anyway good cable helps. Usually thicker cables are better. Probably due to the extra thickness being more shielding 11:37:59 it's an unshielded cable, but I thought that mostly prevented interference, or possibly ghosting? 11:38:10 I'm not suggesting "monstercable" style here. Just good shielded cable 11:38:34 Asztal, strange are the ways of electromagnetism... 12:08:26 GregorR: Gee, you're not logged in. 12:10:15 -!- GregorR has joined. 12:31:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:44:37 well, is PESOIX or PSOX widely used? 12:54:34 I never heard of "PESOIX" before 12:54:47 and I don't think PSOX is *widely* used at least 12:56:20 PESOIX is the one mentioned in this page: http://jonripley.com/easel/ 12:56:30 which is an extension to EsoAPI. 12:57:37 Dudens. 12:57:54 How do I put two graphics on the same level in LaTeX? 12:58:48 I have done that... Hm *tries to remember where and/or how* 13:11:24 anyway i have designed this one: http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/exe it is certainly duplicated effort, though. :S 13:27:19 -!- Corun has joined. 13:31:01 -!- Corun has quit (Client Quit). 13:42:15 -!- Corun has joined. 13:50:36 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 13:59:05 lifthrasiir, this would be mostly for BF I guess? 13:59:52 lifthrasiir, because handling null bytes will be a PTIA in many esolangs. 13:59:54 AnMaster: i don't think so... well, with an exception of funge-98. 14:01:00 AnMaster: what's PTIA? 14:01:37 PITA = Pain in the Back (you can figure out what the last word should be yourself 14:01:38 ) 14:01:56 ah, okay. 14:02:36 could you give me actual example? i cannot imagine such one. 14:02:38 lifthrasiir, also, doesn't null byte collide with how EOF is handled? That is: , returns 0 on EOF 14:02:55 lifthrasiir, what about underload? Though that one doesn't have input... 14:03:17 I think it would be hard in Taxi too 14:03:22 AnMaster: byte-oriented I/O should sufficient, i think. 14:03:45 not universal though 14:03:49 (as you pointed out) 14:04:01 lifthrasiir, which several of esolangs lack. Some have printable char ones, some have whole string ones. and some lack IO at all of course 14:04:33 hmm. 14:04:35 lifthrasiir, what about this: Split the thing in two parts 14:04:42 One frontend, and one backend 14:04:50 with proper mapping? 14:04:54 the frontend could be replaced to fit the type of IO used 14:05:04 it basically just defines encoding scheme 14:05:14 the backend implements the actual functions and calls 14:05:27 so frontend should be called "protocol" probably 14:05:31 rather than "frontend" 14:05:43 lifthrasiir, see what I mean? 14:06:01 then if language can't output null bytes you can use a different protocol or such 14:06:02 that is what i'm considering now, but i have no idea about I/O based on printable character only. 14:06:43 and that'd be quite hard to find the good protocol for them. 14:06:53 lifthrasiir, I remember seeing some esolang that you couldn't print chars not in the source in, and where chars in source had to be printable (with exception of newline) 14:07:04 don't remember name though... 14:07:33 (for example, how about invocation sequence? PLEASEENABLEEXEVERSION0? :p) 14:08:00 lifthrasiir, that would probably have to be defined by the protocol yes 14:08:13 seems too hard. 14:08:17 hm... 14:08:23 protocol would need to define: 14:08:31 activation sequence 14:08:44 how to call function. 14:08:54 encoding/decoding of function calls and their parameters 14:09:45 and how to retrieve the return value, of course. 14:09:53 yes of course 14:10:16 lifthrasiir, I guess that always using STDIO would be a good idea 14:10:37 for function call? 14:10:47 for talking to process in general? 14:11:05 I mean. Most langs that can talk with anything in any way have stdio 14:11:13 yes, that's intended 14:11:15 those that doesn't have stdio tends to lack, uh tcp and such too 14:11:28 it would however be funny with an esolang with tcp but no stdio support 14:11:40 and I/O thingy are for doing arbitrary I/O with _only_ stdio. 14:11:52 (i.e. remapping stdin/stdout to arbitrary source/sink) 14:12:22 lifthrasiir, yeah. Anyway parameters could have to be encoded as ASCII or whatever. 14:13:07 The open mode is ORed value of the following flags: <-- hm I guess that is ok if protocol part could read it as ascii and then convert to integer 14:13:13 or similiar 14:13:40 the trick is leaving enough freedom for the the protocol module without making it too freeform and complex 14:13:47 which I agree isn't easy to pull off 14:13:48 bbl 14:15:12 maybe i have to encode byte as integer followed by one space, like Funge "." command. 14:26:24 BeholdMyGlory: is #<$+1?=[4]<$+1?=[3] valid migol code? 14:27:56 ohnoes... 14:28:14 i extended the view of an array of 120000 items in firebug... :/ 14:30:12 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 14:31:03 well, that was invalid, thus general statement is form of TARGET{<[OP]VALUE}[?OP VALUE]. 14:31:19 (guess what? i'm trying to make migol interpreter.) 15:08:53 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:33:25 -!- kar8nga has joined. 15:42:59 So, AMD has 6 core chips now. 15:43:24 ehird: That means the uberrig has an additional 16 cores. :p 15:50:21 lifthrasiir: what language? C(++)? 15:50:28 C. 15:53:21 Ok, just be prepared that the specification is going to change a bit in the near future, regarding I/O 15:54:13 BeholdMyGlory: exactly what? i'm curious. 15:54:15 how* 15:54:42 I have no idea how it's going to work 15:54:58 I don't really remember, I'll have to wait 'till MigoMipo gets online 15:55:49 ha. 15:56:59 IIRC hex numbering will be introduced (with x prefix, should be valid everywhere where decimal numbers are), and the syntax was something in the lines of &(number1)/(number2) 15:57:40 Where (number1) is a number related to a command (input, output), and (number2) is a pointer to an array of memory slots which the command may use 15:58:14 E.g. printing and supplying &id/3 (I don't remember the particular ID), would print the char at cell 3 15:58:36 Also, I believe output will be manually flushed, although I'm not 100% certain 15:59:29 -!- mtd has joined. 15:59:29 woah. 16:01:20 1<48,2<60,3<49,4<44,...,71<62,72<91,73<91,74<48,75<93,76<93,0<1,[0]>-,'<>,[[0]]>-,',>,0<$+1,#<$-5?<>[[0]],0<1,[[0]]>,0<$+1,#<$-2?<>[[0]] 16:01:24 simple quine. 16:01:54 (i recall the feeling of programming in kipple...) 16:02:41 Heh, I was trying to create a quine in Migol, but never succeeded 16:02:52 But then I don't really have much experience of quines 16:03:28 is that really a working quine? :O add that to the wiki! 16:03:59 yes! :p 16:04:07 "..."? 16:04:39 FireFly: well, many quines have general structure; storing the data, printing that data twice in the different representation. 16:05:08 in this example, 1<48,...76<93 sets up the memory to contain the following code. 16:05:31 Ah 16:05:57 and the following code prints the memory once in form of "addr that's all. quite simple. 16:07:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:10:05 -!- inurinternet has joined. 16:11:39 Yeah, quines are rather simple. Fun, though. 16:13:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:19:35 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 16:21:05 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:25:10 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 16:25:17 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 16:26:28 -!- Slereah has quit ("Leaving"). 16:27:36 -!- inurinternet has joined. 16:39:29 lifthrasiir: any reason why you put the Migol examples on the talk page rather than in the main article? 16:39:46 oerjan: i'm not sure the interpreter is finished. 16:39:53 ah 16:40:02 maybe wait a bit then 16:40:23 at least migol09.jar works, but the specification is quite vague in some area, like EOF handling. 16:40:37 * oerjan will see if the formatting trick he used for the /// quine works for the Migol quine too 16:40:50 i've also surprised when newline follows null character 16:45:21 what the, it doesn't 16:46:38 putting it in doesn't give a good line wrap with the /// one 16:47:10 * oerjan wonders if this is very browser dependent 16:47:18 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 16:48:22 Ah, sorry for the incoherent URLs to the Migol interpreter, by the way 16:48:34 I need to structure my stuff better 16:51:36 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 16:51:52 My idea is that, for a "complete" platform, 3 things are needed: 1. Algorithms, 2.Data structures and 3. I/O. 16:52:06 1 and 2 can be done in Migol. Sort of. 16:52:34 MigoMipo: hello. 16:52:39 When I/O is done, it should be possibly to write, for example, a HTTP server in Migol. 16:53:09 by the way, advanced I/O is missing in many, possibly most esolangs; they only provide standard input and output. 16:53:35 lifthrasiir: Yes, but advanced I/O makes it more interesting. 16:53:49 The fact that most esolangs lack it makes it even cooler. 16:54:11 I still believe we should keep a lighter version 16:54:19 i agree on FireFly too. 16:54:39 But I still find the idea with heavier I/O interesting, so it could be a separate version? 16:54:56 Sure, I could have a Migol Standard Console Edition and a Migol Bloated Enterprise Edition. 16:55:02 :D 16:56:01 Obviously all esolangs should have an FFI. 16:56:10 MigoMipo: first thing i would suggest is replacing "value>" output statement with "[@] Which reminds me: screw PSOX. C FFI via stdio. :p 16:56:27 and by natural extension, you can select the I/O target with "@ :p 16:59:39 hmm defend9 seems to be a bit too large for my bf joust debugger 17:00:08 -!- inurinternet has joined. 17:01:01 jix: are you also not managing to avoid expanding ()* and ({})% 17:01:03 hmm i need to make some of this stuff lazy evaluating then i think... 17:01:14 seems to be a common affliction around here 17:01:24 oerjan: i could but then evaluation would be slow 17:01:35 oh? 17:01:43 why in the world would it be slow 17:01:45 because i'd have to keep a stack instead of linear instruction pointer 17:01:57 a stack of loop iteration counts 17:02:12 which can't be (without real continuations) the native stack 17:03:17 because you are doing two programs simultaneously... 17:04:03 i don't know about such things. is a manually maintained stack really that much slower? 17:04:38 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:04:43 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:07:32 -!- oerjan has quit ("Brain stubbornly refuses to think about programming"). 17:11:25 MigoMipo: ah, also is that newline is followed by null character intended? 17:13:15 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 17:15:33 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:20:27 lifthrasiir: I implemented the interpreter in Java, and it reads input directly from System.in. 17:20:40 Unfortunately, newline characters are included. 17:21:04 hmm, you mean you intended "foobar\0baz\0" or so? 17:21:07 The interpreter adds the null characters when the input buffern is empty. 17:22:07 lifthrasiir: Yup, I thought it would make sense to end input with 0. 17:22:15 then how about EOF? 17:22:18 How does BF handle that? 17:22:32 MigoMipo: various, but doesn't use null character at all. 17:22:36 Hmm... 17:22:38 since it also deals with binary input. 17:22:56 (and some interpreter sets the current cell zero if EOF is encountered) 17:23:26 I want Migol to be able to handle binary input too, but it probably don't. 17:24:11 "It don't" :( 17:24:31 * MigoMipo fails @ grammar 17:29:22 Your internal parser must have some interesting BNF. 17:31:10 I don't use BNF at all. 17:31:25 The parsing is made using entirely regular expressions. 17:31:37 -!- sebbu has quit (Connection timed out). 17:31:37 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 17:31:49 Well, that explains why your internal parser is broken. 17:32:15 :( 17:32:32 I'm *damned* sure that English doesn't have a regular grammar. 17:33:01 Hell, it might be an unrestricted grammar. 17:33:11 Meaning that it needs a Turing machine to parse. 17:33:16 Aaha, you talked about English. 17:33:24 Yuh. 17:36:39 i thought a grammar was some kind of high-level specification for a *fixed* language 17:36:49 how can English have a grammar? 17:37:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_grammar 17:37:10 shhh :P 17:43:10 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success). 17:43:30 -!- inurinternet has joined. 17:51:05 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 18:00:57 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:06:46 English has a stochastic regular grammar. 18:07:40 You can tell it's not general context free by the fact that "that that that that that that that that that that that that is is is is is is is is is is is is" is not a valid sentence. 18:07:58 kerlo_: No, it certainly is not a regular grammar. 18:08:11 A hint: the regular grammars are a subset of the context free grammars. 18:08:12 ;) 18:08:48 What makes you think it certainly is not? 18:09:15 If it's not a context free grammar, it certainly can't be a regular grammar. 18:09:24 I said "general". 18:09:29 Maybe I should have said something else. 18:09:31 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 18:09:33 Like "non-regular". 18:09:50 Now you're just being confusing. 18:09:51 -!- impomatic has left (?). 18:09:55 Anyway, okay. Regular grammars are to O(x) as context-free grammars are to O(x^2) as English grammar is to O(x log x). 18:10:21 Do you happen to got by BadAnalogyGuy on /.? 18:10:23 s/got/go/ 18:10:41 That's not a bad analogy, it's just incomprehensible. 18:11:04 So it's a *terrible* analogy. Got it. 18:11:23 What I meant by that is that English is like a regular grammar except it can keep a stack of depth approximately proportional to the log of the length of the sentence. 18:12:00 Which is a subset of the context-free grammars, probably, but a superset of the regular grammars. 18:12:29 Which means it's not at all a regular grammar. Or context-free. 18:12:53 Perhaps a context-sensitive grammar. 18:12:54 Being able to keep a stack of depth approximately proportional to the log of the length of the sentence makes it not context-free? 18:13:13 That implies context. ;) 18:13:23 I was under the impression that context-free grammars had stacks. 18:14:08 Like the grammar ::= "(" ")" | "[" "]" | epsilon. That obviously has a stack. 18:14:42 Ah, yes. English isn't context-free, but not for that reason... 18:15:10 Indeed, English will always have its irregularities. 18:15:18 kerlo_: but you can have a stack that is linear with the length i think.... 18:15:20 And incontextfreeities. 18:15:24 (in english) 18:15:34 jix: not if you want people to understand you. 18:16:36 kerlo_: but that is a stupid restriction 18:16:52 People being able to understand you? No, it's not. :-P 18:17:00 as you can't formalize it in any sane way i'd say 18:17:12 I don't think you can formalize English in any sane way. 18:17:32 Yes you can. Just grab a Turing machine. 18:17:37 Oh, and go insane. 18:17:41 That helps a lot. 18:17:55 Making theories about it, on the other hand, is easy for both English and understanding of English. 18:18:00 * kerlo_ rings a Fibonacci bell. 18:18:10 (For loose definitions of "easy".) 18:18:49 * kerlo_ ponders English phrases with large stacks. 18:19:15 what about garden path sentences? 18:19:25 * kerlo_ ponders garden path sentences. 18:19:43 like "the old man the boat" 18:22:23 "The old man..." has multiple parsings, I guess, and you have to keep track of them. 18:23:08 * kerlo_ opens up lynx and searches for garden path sentences. 18:23:30 "Welcome to Xubuntu"? I had no idea I was running that. 18:24:04 yep, the major problem is that english appears to be outside of DCFL 18:25:54 DCFL? 18:26:09 Ah. 18:26:11 deterministic context free languages 18:26:11 * kerlo_ opens Wikipedia in Lynx and sees lots of "v o d o e". 18:26:19 can be parsed with a deterministic stack automaton 18:26:24 tetha: I expanded it after hitting enter. 18:26:30 hehe 18:26:44 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:28:46 Anyway, the only stack-expanding word that comes to mind is the 'that' of 'I want that you come'. 18:28:59 * kerlo_ immediately realizes he's using 's instead of "s. 18:30:36 and this opens the doors for mayhem like "i want that you want that i want that you want that i come" 18:35:38 -!- olsner has joined. 18:36:31 That's not nearly as stack-expanding as it could be. 18:36:43 It can be treated linearly. 18:47:06 -!- jix_ has joined. 18:58:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:59:31 kerlo_: N-buffalo sentences, though... 18:59:58 Also linear, I think. 19:00:12 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:00:23 Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo. I think. 19:00:34 If that's not right, it's because I picked a non-linear way to expand. 19:00:52 If that's not right, it's because I was standing on the shoulders of giants. 19:01:51 And now for a definition! "Linear" might mean "either left-branching or right-branching", as opposed to both-ways-branching. 19:02:14 Heck. Is there a regular expression that produces the N-buffalo sentences for all N? 19:02:30 Regular expressions are totally linear. 19:03:17 so, regular expressions can parse halflife2? 19:03:52 Don't be ridiculous. Exponential decay is exponential, not linear. 19:06:49 -!- inurinternet has quit (Connection timed out). 19:14:17 -!- tombom has joined. 19:19:23 Whoa. IPA in lynx displays as SAMPA. 19:20:27 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:20:38 No, Kirshenbaum. 19:22:23 kerlo_: Whoa. 19:25:30 And the missing part of that sentence is "on Wikipedia". 19:25:55 (Congratulations to all who guessed correctly.) 19:27:12 I'm trying to find the ä sound, as in "Autistic law, Paw, walks tall." 19:35:54 "The saw caught the law." 19:36:12 Apparently it's O in Kirshenbaum. 19:36:13 -!- inurinternet has joined. 19:37:24 IPA, it's a turned c. 19:39:12 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:39:21 -!- tetha has joined. 20:08:32 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:11:42 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:17:12 Heck. Is there a regular expression that produces the N-buffalo sentences for all N? 20:17:29 can you define the N-buffalo sentences for us? 20:18:34 * oerjan googles just in case 20:22:36 you mean "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo."? 20:23:01 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 20:23:26 {[buffalo from Buffalo] that [buffalo from Buffalo] [bully]} bully {[buffalo from Buffalo] that [buffalo from Buffalo] [bully]} 20:23:51 oerjan: In English, a sentence composed of N instances of "buffalo" is a valid sentence for any value of N greater than 0. 20:24:09 i know that 20:24:09 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 20:24:25 Those are N-buffalo sentences. 20:24:26 that was implied 20:24:42 it doesn't tell _how_ you make them, especially with correct capitalization 20:24:42 Then why did you ask for a definition? 20:24:57 Ah. 20:25:13 Tad bit more complex to do with correct capitalisation. 20:25:15 pikhq: i need a context-free grammar first if i'm supposed to tell if it's regular... 20:27:01 Yuh. 20:29:46 Okay. In "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo", the production rules are... 20:29:59 ::= "buffalo" 20:30:10 ::= "Buffalo" 20:30:19 hmmm my bfjoust debugger starts to get usable :) 20:30:24 ::= "buffalo" 20:30:34 ::= "buffalo" 20:30:36 (fin) 20:31:02 Doesn't cover the 1-buffalo sentence. 20:31:07 Of course, this leads to silly regexes like /(Buffalo )* buffalo buffalo./ 20:31:27 Buffalo Buffalo buffalo are just Buffalo buffalo. 20:31:40 kerlo_: i don't feel a Buffalo prefix can be repeated 20:31:42 can't you adjust the rules for that? 20:32:09 kerlo_: Buffalo Buffalo buffalo == Bully buffalo from buffalo. 20:32:12 i suggest ::= "Buffalo buffalo" instead 20:32:17 s/buffalo./Buffalo./ 20:32:48 couldn't you do 20:32:48 ::= "Buffalo" 20:32:48 ::= 20:33:14 and define restriced noun phrase accordingly? 20:33:14 Perhaps. 20:33:38 ::= "buffalo> 20:33:51 ::= "Buffalo" 20:34:02 ::= "buffalo" 20:34:10 ::= 20:34:20 ::= "buffalo" 20:34:29 ::= "buffalo" 20:34:31 (fin) 20:34:41 er, why the second last one? 20:34:47 ::= "Buffalo" 20:35:39 i don't see why rnp needs to contain anything but "buffalo" 20:37:02 becomes the same strings anyway 20:37:30 so: 20:37:40 ::= "buffalo" 20:38:05 ::= "Buffalo buffalo" | "buffalo" | "buffalo" 20:39:52 the last production of is the only thing that might make it non-regular 20:41:27 hm cannot produce an even number of lower-case buffaloes 20:43:11 And all this neglects that a n-buffalo sentence is initially capitalised. 20:43:21 ah. 20:43:47 that's not going to change regularity though, i think 20:44:00 Nah. Just changes the specifics. 20:47:26 !bfjoust wiggle1 (>[-[-[-[+]]]]+>[+[+[+[-]]]]-)*40 20:47:34 Score for jix__wiggle1: 29.5 20:48:08 -!- jix_ has changed nick to jix. 20:48:18 !bfjoust wiggle1 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40 20:48:26 Score for jix_wiggle1: 32.9 20:51:37 ::= ( "buffalo")*, ::= "Buffalo buffalo" | "buffalo" 20:54:21 it's like parenthesis matching if you could change any ( to a ) 20:54:29 !bfjoust wiggle1 (>)*5(>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40 20:54:37 Score for jix_wiggle1: 14.3 20:54:46 !bfjoust wiggle1 (>)*2(>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40 20:54:54 Score for jix_wiggle1: 24.3 20:55:00 !bfjoust wiggle1 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*40 20:55:08 Score for jix_wiggle1: 29.5 20:56:47 Wiggle waggle shake and 21:00:53 hm... 21:00:54 !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]->[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]+)*15 21:01:03 Score for jix_wiggle2: 25.1 21:02:45 !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]-)*15" 21:02:53 Score for jix_wiggle2: 20.1 21:03:35 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:04:17 kerlo_: (Buffalo buffalo)^n from the start cannot contain the end of any non-trivial noun phrase. it will take about n/2 "buffalo" just to end those, which cannot be encoded in finite state. Thus not regular. I think. 21:04:55 maybe add one more Buffalo first to take care of capitalization. 21:05:01 !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[-[++++[+]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]]+>[+[+[+[----[-]]]]]->[-[-[-[++++[+]]]]]-)*15 21:05:10 Score for jix_wiggle2: 19.4 21:05:14 :( 21:06:05 s/about/at least/ 21:06:51 !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]-)*15 21:07:00 Score for jix_wiggle2: 26.7 21:07:38 hm make that n 21:08:05 !bfjoust wiggle2 (>[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]-)*10 21:08:13 Score for jix_wiggle2: 34.0 21:09:05 oerjan: as soon as you show that you need to remember a number of character which depends on the input somehow, you are done, as it is not possible in finite state, so n or n/2 or something like that is only a technical detail 21:10:08 !bfjoust wiggle2 >+>+>->->->(>[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]+>[+[+[---[-]]]]]->[-[-[+++[+]]]]-)*9 21:10:16 Score for jix_wiggle2: 38.9 21:10:38 tetha: of course 21:13:54 oh what i'm doing is basically what shade is doing... 21:13:58 only that shade is doing it better... 21:14:10 and yeah my debugger is usefull by now 21:14:28 but will have to polish it a bit before releasing 21:14:45 and maybe do something that allows monster programs to be "compiled" faster 21:16:54 no wait i think i'm doing it better... now 21:17:08 except i don't use enough steps 21:19:46 mm, genetic algorithms + bf joust 21:23:18 there still remains the question of whether those buffaloes can be herded into a deterministic PDA, or even just an unambiguous grammar... 21:23:59 yacc-magicians can answer that better than I can 21:24:41 yaccs, buffaloes, what's the difference 21:27:12 i think this language has no non-trivial forbidden prefix 21:28:53 hm... 21:32:02 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:32:56 -!- cherez1 has joined. 21:33:09 -!- cherez1 has left (?). 21:33:57 !bfjoust wiggle2 >-(>+)*4>(>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(]->([+)*5[(-)*6[-)*2(])*8+(>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8-)*3>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8+(>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8-)*2>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(]-(>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8+)*2>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*7)*2]+>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8+>([-)*5[(+)*6[+]->([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8(+>([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8)*2->([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8->([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8(->([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8)*2(+>([+)*5[(-)*6[-])*2(])*7(+>([+)*5[(-)*6[-(])*8->([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8)*2+>([+)*5 21:34:03 Score for jix_wiggle2: 0.0 21:34:08 huh 21:34:10 ^^ 21:34:55 ([+)*5 is not particularly useful at the end 21:35:08 ah it got cut then 21:35:25 this BFJoust thing is absurd. >| 21:36:21 So is your FACE 21:36:31 <3 21:36:39 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://pastebin.com/pastebin.php?dl=d44ba4d2 21:36:47 Score for jix_wiggle2: 24.1 21:37:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:38:15 Did something happen to the scoring again? 21:38:25 seems strange to me 21:38:31 but otoh i'm changing quite a lot in my program with each try 21:38:49 the 0.0 was irc cutting of my program 21:39:51 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://pastebin.com/pastebin.php?dl=d1fe166c4 21:39:59 Score for jix_wiggle2: 36.0 21:40:15 unbalanced ()* looks hard to read... 21:41:37 * oerjan sees a ([-)*5[(+)*6[+(])*8 in there 21:41:57 well but the interpreter accepts it 21:42:01 and it's program generated anyway 21:42:05 that's not even balanced 21:42:16 as i said it was cut by irc 21:42:29 jix: only because GregorR-L couldn't manage to do the efficient ({}) without expanding 21:42:35 oerjan: i know 21:42:39 i mean that fragment 21:42:53 and the only reason i did this at all was to get the code short enough for irc 21:43:01 oh 21:43:30 i thought ({})% was shorter than splitting it up... 21:43:32 hm 21:43:44 well i don't have ({})% in my code 21:43:54 i just did some repeated string => ()* replacement 21:44:03 the code itself is completely unrolled 21:44:12 (a{b}c)%n vs. (a)*nb(c)*n 21:44:13 oh 21:46:33 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.org/p/aWqgSqGndb/txt 21:46:44 Score for jix_wiggle2: 39.6 21:48:49 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.org/p/azHq8yTRkb 21:48:52 whoops 21:48:56 Score for jix_wiggle2: 0.0 21:49:02 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.org/p/azHq8yTRkb/txt 21:49:11 Score for jix_wiggle2: 42.1 21:57:28 -!- tombom_ has joined. 21:57:38 -!- adu has joined. 21:57:46 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:58:04 oerjan: I was looking for a good subset. 21:59:23 kerlo_: well then Buffalo (buffalo)* should do nicely... 21:59:33 Oh? 21:59:47 hm wait 21:59:54 there was that even/odd thing 22:00:18 Buffalo buffalo buffalo. Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo. Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo. 22:00:22 Those are all valid. 22:00:42 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aBPObTXOlb/txt 22:00:46 ah yes 22:00:52 Score for jix_wiggle2: 30.4 22:01:01 the capitalization neutralizes the even/odd distinction 22:01:33 the odd ones don't really use the city 22:01:41 the even ones only once, first 22:03:21 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aJLB4WVu9/txt 22:03:26 any instance of buffalo as a noun can be replaced by three copies 22:03:30 Score for jix_wiggle2: 30.8 22:03:31 what's the shortest Buffalo sentence that's ambiguous? 22:03:38 (the first two still being nouns) 22:04:03 the five one at least 22:04:07 ais523: ^ 22:04:34 oerjan: yes, agreed 22:04:44 the five sentence has ambiguous associativity 22:05:17 the four one only if we ignore capitalization 22:08:02 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aVY5DjSAD/txt 22:08:11 Score for jix_wiggle2: 45.2 22:10:34 ooh, Firefox 3 just overtook IE6 22:10:53 hmmm how do defend6 and 7 work? 22:11:09 jix: tripwire, followed by attempting to trap the opponent in a [+] or [-] loop 22:11:09 the 2*Buffalo sentence is ambiguous in english. 22:11:11 just so you know. 22:11:26 ais523: and how does it win? 22:11:30 7 uses decoys, apart from that there's no difference 22:11:38 and it wins by leaving the opponent stuck in [+] or [-] on its flag 22:11:45 -!- adu has quit. 22:11:50 psygnisfive: we were using kerlo's grammar 22:11:55 alternating between defending the flag (preventing it being 0 twice in a row), and attacking 22:12:04 so it gradually zeroes all possible enemy flags while defending its own 22:12:08 psygnisfive: As is the 1-Buffalo sentence. 22:12:23 pikhq: is that even a sentence? 22:12:27 the 1-buffalo sentence isnt ambiguous unles you accept fragments. 22:12:28 Yes. 22:12:31 you'd need an exclamation mark, at least 22:12:37 its an imperative 22:12:55 "Buffalo." as in "You go buffalo someone" 22:13:06 but theres no other interpretation of it as a sentence. 22:13:17 "Buffalo!" 22:13:25 As in the city or the animal. 22:13:41 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aJlGw7KYJ/txt 22:13:43 as in not a sentence. 22:13:49 Score for jix_wiggle2: 19.6 22:13:53 thats a sentence fragment 22:13:56 specifically its just an NP. 22:14:09 jix: go back to the old one, and use a different name for test programs 22:14:21 it is a test program 22:14:25 -!- tombom has quit (Connection timed out). 22:14:26 -!- tombom_ has changed nick to tombom. 22:14:40 until know i got better score with each edit or each edit sequence of two 22:14:54 jix: a program that comes fourth is not a test program, even if it was meant to be 22:14:56 *now 22:15:11 !bfjoust wiggle2 http://nopaste.com/p/aVY5DjSAD/txt 22:15:20 Score for jix_wiggle2: 40.5 22:15:27 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:15:48 but isn't it bad to fill the hill with test programs? 22:15:52 also, it's interesting to see how speedy19 has dropped off and speedy0 hasn't; they were neck and neck (although against different programs) last I looked 22:15:52 that just happen to be above average? 22:15:58 psygnisfive: It's a minor sentence and an exclamation. ;) 22:16:07 and they won't fill the hill if they aren't good 22:16:09 (or I'm just wrong) 22:16:12 and if they are, they don't count as test programs 22:16:13 its not a minor sentence, its a bare NP. 22:16:33 ais523: how should i know before ^^ it's not that i test them locally 22:16:43 there is no such thing as a "minor sentence" anyway. 22:16:57 maybe i should do that... 22:17:37 * pikhq wonders if psygnisfive has never heard someone exclaim at seeing something with a single word. 22:17:53 ais523: So did the scoring change again or did the programs just change so much as to re-mess-up the rankings? 22:17:53 jix: well, one possibility upon submitting a test program and it doing very well is to clear it from the hill with <, then submitting an identical program with a non-test name 22:17:53 i have seen people exclaim things, pikhq, but that doesnt make it a sentence 22:17:59 Deewiant: just program change 22:18:02 the hill is rather dynamic 22:18:10 * psygnisfive wonders if pikhq realizes he's arguing with a linguist 22:18:21 I'm somewhat surprised how much monorail dropped 22:18:27 I think your definition of a sentence sucks. 22:18:31 From 6.x points to -1.1 22:18:36 i think you dont know what a sentence is. 22:18:41 * oerjan wonders if psygnisfive realizes he's arguing with a pikhq 22:19:04 oerjan: good point. never argue with amateurs who don't realize they're amateurs. :( 22:19:26 Oh, I realise I'm an amateur. I just like being contrary. 22:19:46 * oerjan didn't know he was making a point 22:19:56 -!- adu has joined. 22:20:15 now pikhq, see, if you WEREN'T an amateur, you would be capable of saying something like, oh "well sure, its an NP, or it LOOKS that way, but really its a sentence that had the NP evacuated from the VP and then had the rest of the content elided!" 22:20:23 or something similar 22:21:21 hmmm now i have to add a nontrappable [] 22:22:17 does the interpreter support (foo(bar{baz}fn)%10ord)*10 ? 22:22:30 or can't i put ({})% inside ()* 22:22:50 * pikhq goes on calling "Buffalo!" a sentence because it works as one in the minds of everyone but a linguist 22:22:59 jix: putting ({})% inside ()* ought to work 22:23:04 actually it doesnt work in the mind of everyone 22:23:04 (bloody prescriptionist. :p) 22:23:08 as an imperative, it works fine 22:23:28 but noone accepts "buffalo" as anything other than a bare NP in the other interpretation 22:23:48 ais523: hrrm trapping someone in [+] or [-] is unfair ;) 22:23:49 furthermore, you cant be prescriptivist about the structural analyses you make because they're analyses, not observations. 22:23:52 jix: why? 22:24:01 thirdly, call me a prescriptivist again and ill hunt you down and rape you. 22:24:03 Funny, parses to me as "(Look,) bufallo!" 22:24:07 ais523: (not serious... hence the smiley) 22:24:14 defend9 can trap people in about 12 different sorts of loops; but it isn't doing as well for some reason 22:24:18 ais523: it's just that as soon as you're trapped... it's to late 22:24:19 maybe because it's having trouble detecting 22:24:28 Erm. 22:24:34 "(Look,) buffalo!" 22:24:36 pikhq: thats the interpretation of the utterance, yes 22:24:41 but that does not make it a sentence 22:24:59 there is this thing called pragmatics, and the maxim of relevance, which allows people to calculate an enormous amount of stuff 22:25:52 Okay, so you're saying it's not a sentence, but our brains are absurdly flexible with it's handling of language, so it manages to (usually) work, basically. 22:25:53 and in this particular case, a bare NP + maxim of relevance can be interpreted (CONTEXTUALLY) as intending to communicate the existence of the NP. 22:26:09 pikhq: not absurdly flexible, just sufficiently flexible. 22:26:43 you can observe this by considering the enormous range of contexts in which just "Buffalo" is acceptable as a response to, say, a question 22:27:05 where the interpretation of the bare NP, as an utterance, is NOT an assertion of the existence of a buffalo 22:27:08 e.g. 22:27:16 "What should we have for dinner?" "Buffalo wings." 22:27:23 "Where should we go on vacation?" "Buffalo" 22:27:26 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/ahoQwZcHz/txt 22:27:31 I think I'm just going to hate natural languages for making less sense than programming languages and shaddup. 22:27:33 "What species is that?" "Buffalo." 22:27:34 etc. 22:27:39 Score for jix_wiggle3: 22.1 22:28:03 pikhq: if you learned some linguistics you'd realize that they make a whole lot of sense, actually. 22:28:17 but this stuff about bare NPs and such isnt so much a linguistic fact as a human fact 22:28:40 because its just part of a broader cognitive capacity that we have for analyzing peoples actions 22:28:41 Screw you and your knowing-stuff. :p 22:29:21 natural language, by itself, is quite elegant and beautiful. 22:30:15 afk cooking crepes. 22:30:39 also, pikhq, learn about modern syntax. its cool. 22:30:50 http://www.wellnowwhat.net/blog/?p=93 22:31:15 Guess I've got something to read after I finish Dr. McNinja, then. 22:31:18 \o/ 22:32:39 the part on structuralism and formal languages you probably already understand so you could probably skip it 22:32:53 atleast read the structuralism part 22:33:30 Alright. Thanks for the suggestion of something to read that'll make me sound *slightly* less ignorant about this. 22:34:01 well, the series im writing is really just about contemporary syntax frameworks 22:34:20 it doesnt discuss detailed issues, nor does it really look at ling methodology 22:34:39 Thus "slightly". 22:34:43 yah. 22:34:47 its cool tho. 22:34:48 anyway 22:34:49 afk 22:34:56 Ĝis. 22:34:57 haha wiggle2 is like 5 times as large as the next smaller one... 22:35:13 and wiggle3 is almost 8 times as large as wiggle2 22:36:02 * ais523 reads wiggle2 22:36:17 err, wow 22:36:22 are you sure that can't be abbreviated? 22:36:36 not that efficiently i guess 22:36:40 a) i'm randomizing stuff 22:37:09 b) i have no point b right now 22:37:16 ah, ok 22:38:08 at least the recursive pattern isn't in a way it would be obvious for me on how to efficiently and syntactic legally write this abbreviated 22:38:24 jix: was your question about defend6/7 because you wanted to find a way to beat them? 22:38:35 yeah 22:38:41 (I notice lots of [+] and [-] in your program) 22:38:45 by next week the top-of-the-hill BF Joust programs should need to be sentient. 22:39:02 actually, sentient BF Joust might be interesting 22:39:05 humans playing 22:39:14 haha 22:39:20 on your turn, you can do + - < > or look at whether the current tape element is 0 22:39:33 that would be awesomeish 22:39:43 could be rather boring, I imagine 22:40:33 people play rock paper scissors... 22:40:58 hmmm most of the code of wiggle2 will never be executed 22:41:26 but i try to minimize the amount of times i have to go through a long run of ]]] 22:42:48 hm you could need rather _huge_ programs if you try to avoid ]] 22:43:05 replacing loops by nesting ifs... 22:43:19 basically that's what i'm doing 22:43:42 the outer loops really are just ifs... because the closing condition will always be false 22:44:20 a variation without that problem would be to say that ] takes no time, but jumps to _before_ the corresponding [ 22:44:32 jix: "always" is generally a bad thing to think in BF Joust 22:44:42 after the first 10 or so cycles, anything could happen 22:44:47 ais523: yeah 22:45:19 so maybe i'm better off checking it twice before doing the shortcut recursion stuff 22:45:20 hm wait that may not work 22:45:35 oerjan: won't 22:45:53 it's just the same 22:45:58 oerjan: basically ] should skip to the next non ] instruction in case of 0 for me 22:48:28 -!- adu has quit. 22:52:55 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:53:40 TBH, I think allowing BF Joust to have a conditional goto instruction wouldn't change the game at all, but would make programs a lot shorter 23:02:08 -!- ehird has left (?). 23:02:28 -!- ehird has joined. 23:02:32 -!- ehird has changed nick to ehird_. 23:10:36 06:46 AnMaster: GregorR-L, fan broke. Going to get the fan replaced today. 23:10:36 06:47 AnMaster doesn't trust himself to to that, thus going to leave it to pros. 23:10:40 Replacing a computer fan is hard? 23:10:41 Srsly? 23:10:52 06:48 AnMaster: GregorR-L, and 450 SEK for both new fan AND replacement of it. 23:10:54 that's ridiculously expensive 23:10:55 fan = $10 23:11:08 06:51 AnMaster: so low end it doesn't even have a fan! 23:11:11 that's no indicator of low end 23:11:37 10:05 AnMaster: sure, there are sounds in English that aren't in Swedish (and vice versa) but that "chef" one didn't get those right. 23:11:40 it's ... not meant to. 23:12:14 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aXjcWArLU/txt 23:12:23 Score for jix_wiggle3: 22.0 23:12:49 haha wiggle3 now wins against the defends 23:12:54 -!- coppro has joined. 23:12:54 but looses otherwise 23:12:58 10:18 AnMaster: btw, I can't stand this 1280x1024 on 1400x1050 monitor thing.... So I'm going to be mostly afk 23:12:58 10:18 AnMaster: before I get a headache from it 23:13:00 10:18 GregorR-L: Wow, that's extreme. 23:13:03 your eyes are broken 23:13:23 Nighty 23:13:44 10:37 AnMaster: Asztal, but anyway good cable helps. Usually thicker cables are better. Probably due to the extra thickness being more shielding 23:13:46 hmmm idea on how to break defend... 23:13:49 snaaaaaaaaaake oiiiiiiiiiiiiil 23:13:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:14:00 ah defeat 23:14:07 *eh 23:14:13 13:01 AnMaster: PITA = Pain in the Back (you can figure out what the last word should be yourself 23:14:14 altruist 23:14:25 pain in the altruist? 23:14:49 14:42 pikhq: So, AMD has 6 core chips now. 23:14:49 14:43 pikhq: ehird: That means the uberrig has an additional 16 cores. :p 23:14:50 Nehalem-XE = 8 cores on one chip, iirc, and mobos w/ 4 sockets. 23:14:52 Beat that, bitchnizzle. 23:16:25 17:09 kerlo_: Anyway, okay. Regular grammars are to O(x) as context-free grammars are to O(x^2) as English grammar is to O(x log x). 23:16:29 Erm 23:16:32 Erm. 23:16:38 hoy goys 23:17:17 18:27 kerlo_: I'm trying to find the ä sound, as in "Autistic law, Paw, walks tall." 23:17:24 autistic law? i'm scared 23:17:26 *scared 23:19:47 21:22 pikhq goes on calling "Buffalo!" a sentence because it works as one in the minds of everyone but a linguist 23:19:53 * ehird_ goes on calling brainfuck not a programming language because etc 23:20:15 21:24 psygnisfive: thirdly, call me a prescriptivist again and ill hunt you down and rape you. 23:20:18 you like it that much? 23:20:24 >| 23:20:34 *facepalm* 23:20:46 er, what's that smiley? 23:20:51 no. 23:20:55 what? 23:21:07 which part is the mouth? 23:21:16 | 23:21:34 >|o 23:21:39 it's not a smiley, it's a hole body 23:21:41 *whole 23:21:52 your moms a hole body. 23:22:16 okay now i've logread 23:22:19 and read the responses to my logreading 23:22:22 lament: yes, pain in the altruist. 23:22:28 23:21 psygnisfive: your moms a hole body. 23:22:30 lolololololol 23:22:43 I THOUGHT IT WAS FUNNY TOO 23:22:48 !bfjoust antidefend1 ([>[>[-]+]+]+)*20 23:22:55 Score for jix_antidefend1: 15.6 23:23:13 !bfjoust bye < 23:23:19 Score for lament_bye: 0.0 23:23:23 haha, a *green*. 23:23:36 ↑ this basically means, well why no what 's the 23:24:48 psygnisfive: this is a sentence: the 23:24:51 * ehird_ watches psygnisfive squirm 23:24:56 hey why am I ehird_? 23:24:57 what happene 23:24:58 d 23:25:00 !bfjoust antidefend1 ([>[>[-.-.-.]+]+]+)*20 23:25:07 Score for jix_antidefend1: 17.8 23:25:11 15:02:28 --- join: ehird (n=ehird@208.78.103.223) joined #esoteric 23:25:11 15:02:32 --- nick: ehird -> ehird_ 23:25:13 you dared disagree with a linguist is what happened! 23:25:14 how queer 23:25:15 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 23:25:17 The the the The the. 23:25:27 thé 23:25:32 psygnisfive: actually i agree, "buffalo" isn't a sentence 23:25:33 i should have some tea. 23:25:39 lament: well there's probably a place called the 23:25:42 well, it CAN be 23:25:42 but unfortunately no such verb 23:25:45 its animperative 23:25:47 psygnisfive: well, yeah 23:25:49 but apart from that 23:25:51 but only an imperative 23:25:53 also, ehird 23:25:57 you agreed with me :( 23:26:00 linguist, but not very cunning 23:26:01 * psygnisfive huggles ehird 23:26:03 I LOVE YOU T_T 23:26:04 :( 23:26:07 T________________________________T 23:26:10 ... 23:26:16 lament: not very cunning at all. 23:26:22 SO YOU'RE NOT A 23:26:23 with defend6 and defend7 there is no way to not fall into the trap 23:26:29 anaing, definitely. 23:26:40 psygnisfive: cunninglinguist‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽ 23:26:45 well, cunning if its a transboy, but thats a different sort of thing. 23:26:46 HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA 23:26:48 . 23:27:16 haha antidefend brought slowrush onto the top 23:27:33 ##compling has a bot that will say "Chomsky is cunnilingual" if you say "syntax" 23:27:59 do they all speak lojban in ##compling? 23:28:26 no. 23:28:30 they speak mostly german. 23:28:37 ach so 23:29:04 psygnisfive: no it doesn't 23:29:05 not ALWAYS. 23:29:13 well, no. it does it randomly 23:29:16 to be annoying. 23:29:22 well, less annoying 23:29:32 just below the threshold of "fucking kick this bot" 23:30:05 so, why 'syntax 23:30:05 ' 23:30:13 because chomsky is a syntactician. 23:30:55 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:32:11 well duh 23:32:24 thats all. 23:34:37 ais523: hi 23:34:46 hi 23:35:26 i have a giant reeses peanut butter cup. :T 23:35:42 well give it back to Reese or he'll go fe fi fo fum 23:36:03 D: 23:36:36 yay syntactic ambiguity. :D 23:37:10 psygnisfive: well without the 'a' 23:37:16 the a makes it pretty unambiguous 23:37:29 what? 23:37:56 well, not really. 23:37:56 i mean 23:38:01 haha, it's true :) 23:38:03 "a reese" could be a guy named reese. 23:38:06 nice bot 23:38:10 so a giant reese... 23:38:12 psygnisfive: well, sure 23:38:15 but that's very stretched 23:38:20 who cares 23:38:21 incidentally "rise" is a norwegian word for giant 23:38:24 *just like your butt etc* 23:38:32 very true 23:38:37 i have this enormous dildo, omg 23:38:58 thanks for that; we care. 23:39:05 np 23:45:48 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:47:00 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:53:06 !bfjoust foobar >>+>+>+[[<]>[+++[-]+>]<] 23:53:30 Score for jix_foobar: 3.7 23:54:17 [[Me: I want to see the one we always called the “Hell Paper” at Queen’s — the mandatory fourth-year paper. You know the one, where we prove P = NP? 23:54:17 New Girl: I did that! I proved P = NP! I placed near the top of the class, and the professor used my paper as an example!]] 23:54:22 http://www.joeydevilla.com/2003/04/07/what-happened-to-me-and-the-new-girl-or-the-girl-who-cried-webmaster/ 23:55:58 ?! 23:56:30 GregorR-L: Read the whole thing 23:59:42 ehird: you realize you just spoiled it? 23:59:48 oerjan: Yep. 23:59:49 a nice way to tell if someone's bullshitting 23:59:59 but of course, we all know the answer (P = 1 or N = 0) 2009-06-03: 00:00:15 * oerjan swats ais523 -----### 00:00:18 ouch! 00:00:24 ais523: pretty epic story, though 00:01:26 yes 00:01:33 I wonder what she was meant to be employed for? 00:02:09 ais523: er? 00:02:18 ais523: what do you mean? 00:02:29 I mean, presumably there was some reason he was involved with her in the first place 00:02:33 ais523: girlfriend 00:02:35 read the post 00:02:36 ah 00:03:36 oh god, a jeff atwood post 00:03:38 * ehird runs for cover 00:09:04 wowwtfbbq 00:19:17 !bfjoust foobar >>>+>+[]<[--](-)*111(+)*100000 00:19:48 Score for jix_foobar: 0.0 00:20:11 what was the stepcount again? 00:20:18 100000 00:20:37 hum 00:27:34 ais523: Wolfram Research are hard at work adding pointless hardcoded gags to Wolfram|Alpha instead of improving it: http://www65.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Where+is+Waldo%3F 00:28:12 Are you Skynet? 00:28:52 Totally. 00:31:29 !bfjoust foobar >>>>>>>>(>[+[+[+[+[+[-[-[-[@-----]]]]]]]]])*20 00:31:36 Score for jix_foobar: 13.2 00:33:11 @? 00:46:23 -!- AnMaster has joined. 00:49:52 breakpoint in my debugger ^^ 00:50:34 ah 00:53:09 !bfjoust foobar >>>>>>>>(>[+[+[+[+[+[-[-[-[@-----]]]]]]]]])*30 00:53:16 Score for jix_foobar: 13.3 00:55:09 !bfjoust foobar (+>[<(+++++[->-<]>+++++[-])*30])*30 00:55:17 Score for jix_foobar: 7.0 00:56:39 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:00:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:01:07 -!- ais523 has joined. 01:03:07 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 01:06:45 !bfjoust wiggle3 (>+>-)*4 (>([-)*5 [+++++ ([+)*20 [-] (])*20] (])*5)*30 01:06:54 Score for jix_wiggle3: 35.1 01:07:48 my goal is a short, readable version of wiggle that gets good results 01:08:59 "Why GIMP is Better than Adobe Photoshop" 01:09:00 RAGE 01:11:12 Why emacs is better than visual studio 01:11:39 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 01:11:39 !bfjoust wiggle3 (>+>-)*4(>([-)*5[+++++([+)*8(+)*15[-](])*8](])*5+>([+)*5[-----([-)*8(-)*15[+](])*8](])*5-)*15 01:11:47 Score for jix_wiggle3: 35.6 01:13:26 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 01:15:35 !bfjoust wiggle3b (>+>-)*4(>([-)*5[+++++([+)*8(+)*15[-.](])*8](])*5+>([+)*5[-----([-)*8(-)*15[+.](])*8](])*5-)*15 01:15:42 Score for jix_wiggle3b: 34.6 01:16:02 !bfjoust wiggle3b < 01:16:08 Score for jix_wiggle3b: 0.0 01:18:35 !bfjoust wiggle3b (>+>-)*4(>([-)*5[+++++([+)*8(+)*15[-.](])*8](])*5+>([+)*5[-----([-)*8(-)*15[+.](])*8](])*5-)*2(>([-)*5[+++++([+)*8(+)*15[-](])*8](])*5+>([+)*5[-----([-)*8(-)*15[+](])*8](])*5-)*15 01:18:43 Score for jix_wiggle3b: 26.9 01:19:55 !bfjoust wiggle3b < 01:20:01 Score for jix_wiggle3b: 0.0 01:30:36 jix: i don't suppose you could cut out that putting a dozen clones of the same thing on the hill bit? 01:31:21 unless you think it'd be fun if the rest of us did the same thing 01:33:11 all wiggle versions on the server are different 01:33:40 except the wiggle3b version which was a try to get better than wiggle3 and thus got removed as it wasn't 01:34:00 they'r esame enough to have the same name eh? 01:34:01 jix: same basic implementation = same name 01:34:24 well they are as similar as defend* 01:34:46 they share the same concept 01:35:02 there's 3 defends, one is majorly different from the other two.. but when i said that i saw like 5 wiggles on the hill 01:35:17 * nescience shrugs 01:35:18 nescience: there were 4 and one was already deleted by sucide 01:35:36 correction: 5 and one is now a suicide 01:35:41 jix__wiggle1.bfjoust 01:35:43 jix_wiggle1.bfjoust 01:35:46 jix_wiggle2.bfjoust 01:35:49 jix_wiggle3.bfjoust 01:35:50 jix_wiggle3b.bfjoust 01:35:53 oh didn't saw that jix__ one 01:35:58 that is left there by accident 01:36:00 -!- jix has changed nick to jix_. 01:36:05 !bfjoust wiggle1 < 01:36:11 Score for jix__wiggle1: 0.0 01:36:14 -!- jix_ has changed nick to jix. 01:36:15 if you want to try something else, just reuse the name.. that way you don't bump all the variety (?) off the hill 01:36:16 heh 01:36:27 jix: you could have just done !bfjoust _wiggle1 01:36:32 i mean, if you want to try and see if some code does better than som eother code 01:36:37 nescience: ais523 just told me a few hours ago to not do that.... 01:36:55 wat 01:36:59 but instead use a different name and then suicide or replace it 01:37:11 so i don't delete my good programs with bad testing programs 01:37:17 you can always put them back 01:37:28 but i'm talking variants, not new programs 01:37:57 yeah ais523's wrong; his suggestion would clutter the hill 01:38:05 well wiggle1,2,3 are different programs 01:38:08 if you are testing if having 3 +s does better than 1, it doesn't make sense to submit a bunch of warriors, thus knocking off stuff for no reason 01:38:10 he was angry jix lost space 4 or sth 01:38:15 ehird: I don't like good programs being deleted 01:38:22 if you have a program that does well, use another name for testing 01:38:25 ais523: even for 3 seconds? 01:38:27 that's ridiculous 01:38:33 and replace the good program even when one of the tests does better 01:38:59 well i for myself don't really care ^^ 01:39:20 so i'll just do _something_ now as someone will complain anyway 01:39:30 lol 02:02:11 AnMaster: btw you can do watercooling without a pump 02:02:14 w/ a reserator 02:02:29 can cool more things than heatpipes but less than pumpful watercooling 02:15:42 -!- Patashu has joined. 02:18:28 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/a2wMZwDJe/txt 02:18:37 Score for jix_wiggle3: 33.7 02:32:47 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/axaXCQAjY/txt 02:32:56 Score for jix_wiggle3: 35.2 02:37:48 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aP6cwk1x5/txt 02:37:56 Score for jix_wiggle3: 35.2 02:40:15 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aUeFcpPwdb/txt 02:40:23 Score for jix_wiggle3: 36.6 02:45:13 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aJDTST6eN/txt 02:45:20 Score for jix_wiggle3: 37.0 02:48:23 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aWq3CeYTo/txt 02:48:30 Score for jix_wiggle3: 42.3 02:53:10 wtf pasting readable code 02:53:10 ;p 02:53:15 you have one too many decoys 02:53:37 what is a decoy? 02:53:46 er, your "farm" 02:53:48 is one cell too big 02:53:53 you'll lose on field length 10 02:53:56 i do? 02:54:04 jix: a tape element near your flag set to a nonzero value in order to slow down the opponent 02:54:12 ah 02:54:19 near or far from your flag, it doesn't really matter 02:54:30 more effective near because there's less chance your opponent will already be past where you are putting it 02:54:38 anyway, 02:54:46 !........! 02:54:54 field length 10, 8 cells between your flag and their fla 02:54:54 g 02:54:59 so 9 is too far 02:55:02 yeah 03:03:47 -!- myndzi has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:05:30 -!- inurinternet has joined. 03:05:30 -!- inurinternet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:05:46 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/ao0IKplNq/txt 03:05:50 -!- inurinternet has joined. 03:05:53 Score for jix_wiggle3: 52.8 03:05:54 might be overtuned to one opponent 03:05:57 or not ^^ 03:07:28 -!- myndzi has joined. 03:10:55 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/apkixpgyr/txt 03:11:04 Score for jix_wiggle3: 46.4 03:12:07 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:12:23 it's interesting what you can do in just bf 03:12:44 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/avON2JNox/txt 03:12:51 Score for jix_wiggle3: 52.6 03:13:17 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:13:26 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:13:36 hmmm i'm getting close to the top with my original idea :) 03:13:41 (and even readable code) 03:16:47 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aCZN6xEspb/txt 03:16:56 Score for jix_wiggle3: 40.8 03:17:00 :/ 03:18:23 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:18:29 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aiTnviDic/txt 03:18:38 Score for jix_wiggle3: 38.0 03:20:07 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/a50Zu4QqJ/txt 03:20:15 Score for jix_wiggle3: 52.6 03:21:48 Everyone knows that sentence fragments make perfectly good sentences. 03:22:02 Received bobcat instead of office chair. Would not buy again. 03:23:17 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aY58XLAaO/txt 03:23:26 Score for jix_wiggle3: 43.7 03:25:51 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/a1e2qbAt6/txt 03:26:01 Score for jix_wiggle3: 44.4 03:26:35 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aLm9yG2V6/txt 03:26:44 Score for jix_wiggle3: 42.0 03:29:58 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aUXmYc81t/txt 03:30:08 Score for jix_wiggle3: 41.9 03:30:48 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/agI369nDf/txt 03:30:58 Score for jix_wiggle3: 41.8 03:31:19 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/alPD4N8vv/txt 03:31:28 ! 03:31:29 Score for jix_wiggle3: 42.0 03:31:35 jix is walling again. 03:32:44 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/ar4WKzf4L/txt 03:32:53 Score for jix_wiggle3: 46.7 03:33:31 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aJfWVa4lp/txt 03:33:40 Score for jix_wiggle3: 44.0 03:33:45 Hmm. 03:34:03 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aiUNLWjC7/txt 03:34:09 !bfjoust evil http://normish.org/ihope/evil 03:34:12 Score for jix_wiggle3: 45.3 03:34:19 once you fix one another one breaks 03:34:53 http://normish.org/ihope/evil blocks. 03:35:04 Hopefully, EgoBot is not thereby dead. :-P 03:35:15 If it is, I can free it. 03:35:46 !help 03:35:46 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 03:35:52 Doesn't seem dead. 03:35:53 !ps 03:36:19 Wä wä wä. 03:36:35 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aZLIIPjWjb/txt 03:36:44 Score for jix_wiggle3: 41.8 03:37:52 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/anH9RMHwdb/txt 03:38:02 Score for jix_wiggle3: 45.2 03:39:03 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:45:14 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aNJawZgp3/txt 03:45:25 Score for jix_wiggle3: 46.2 03:47:29 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/a3Zw4eM4Z/txt 03:47:39 Score for jix_wiggle3: 47.2 03:51:17 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aSiaC5KB6/txt 03:51:27 Score for jix_wiggle3: 51.2 03:52:12 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/ak84GnaGeb/txt 03:52:22 Score for jix_wiggle3: 48.9 03:52:58 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aGqKUZTLnb/txt 03:53:08 Score for jix_wiggle3: 48.6 03:53:29 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/alRX7Ro1eb/txt 03:53:40 Score for jix_wiggle3: 48.2 03:54:14 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aG16QnTGY/txt 03:54:24 Score for jix_wiggle3: 49.5 03:55:09 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/adi0Sfe7c/txt 03:55:19 Score for jix_wiggle3: 42.1 03:55:58 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aEKIPPU7nb/txt 03:56:09 Score for jix_wiggle3: 50.9 03:56:46 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aTcBwdEocb/txt 03:56:57 Score for jix_wiggle3: 52.3 03:57:50 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aH8BwhaPdb/txt 03:58:00 Score for jix_wiggle3: 52.6 03:58:39 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aZ0bbURY6/txt 03:58:48 Score for jix_wiggle3: 57.2 03:58:54 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 03:59:21 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/alx52eZ50/txt 03:59:31 Score for jix_wiggle3: 57.3 03:59:31 oo, 57.2 03:59:33 .3 :D 03:59:46 so close 04:00:10 experimental: 04:00:14 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/ajrNY51ag/txt 04:00:23 Score for jix_wiggle3: 56.7 04:00:45 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aRluO2Qhnb/txt 04:00:54 Score for jix_wiggle3: 53.1 04:01:33 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/av8GVZbvn/txt 04:01:43 Score for jix_wiggle3: 57.3 04:02:10 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/awkAoi7wj/txt 04:02:21 Score for jix_wiggle3: 57.3 04:02:26 hah 04:02:28 finally 04:03:26 now you can delete 1, 2, and 3b 04:03:31 unless they use a radically different strategy 04:03:42 which reminds me, I should delete defend6 04:03:46 !bfjoust defend6 < 04:03:52 Score for ais523_defend6: 0.0 04:04:09 thanks -_- 04:04:15 and i thought i could go to bed now ^^ 04:04:20 I'm leaving 7 there, anyway 04:05:08 !bfjoust wiggle3 http://nopaste.com/p/aORaPkjSt/txt 04:05:18 Score for jix_wiggle3: 59.4 04:05:58 ais523: this is why your thing about submitting duplicates sucks 04:06:06 myndzi: why? 04:06:12 because it messes up the scoreboard 04:06:13 ? 04:06:17 now there's 3, possibly to be 4 or 5 suicides on the hill 04:06:25 they'll disappear in due course 04:06:34 but there's no reason for them to be there 04:06:47 instead they alter the scores 04:06:59 I don't think having a suicide alters anything? 04:07:02 by favoring certain strategies (namely, fast attack) 04:07:13 Patashu: did you watch what just happened? 04:07:17 sorry, no 04:07:29 hmm 04:07:34 i tuned my program against defend 04:07:34 oh, I can see how it might have an effect 04:07:39 it gives the same number of wins to everyone 04:07:39 (there were three variants) 04:07:45 now were there are only two left... 04:07:48 i lost points of course 04:08:04 Patashu: excuse me, i was confusing myself :P 04:08:14 you are correct of course, it gives the same points to everyone 04:08:21 but it still shortens the playing field too 04:08:28 just submit filler 04:08:40 i'd rather have whatever warriors got knocked off back 04:08:48 hehe 04:08:49 !bfjoust lazy >(+)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5>(-)*5>(+)*5>(+)*5>(-)*5(>(+.)*129)*21[-]((-)*2048(+)*2048.)*2 04:08:49 submitting filler isn't much better than submitting < :P 04:08:56 Score for Patashu_lazy: 15.7 04:09:00 !bfjoust matador >+[]<(++-)*1000+(--+)*1000(>)*9(>[+][-])*21 04:09:01 !bfjoust waiter ((+--)*10000(-++)*10000)*2(+)*10000(-)*10000(+-)*10000(-+)*10000 04:09:13 lol. they were yours? :P 04:09:18 which ones? 04:09:23 the ones that got knocked off 04:09:25 Score for Patashu_matador: 8.9 04:09:26 Score for Patashu_waiter: 17.4 04:09:27 no 04:09:30 I'm just subbing them now 04:09:30 !bfjoust juggernaut >+>+>->->+>+>->-(>(-)*128.-.+)*29 04:09:37 Score for Patashu_juggernaut: 10.5 04:09:38 !bfjoust 2_3weave (>(+)*23>(-)*23)*1>+>->->+>+>-(>[(-)*20[+]]->[(+)*21[-]]+>+)*10 04:09:47 Score for Patashu_2_3weave: 17.1 04:10:13 anything's better than < 04:10:15 -!- Corun has quit ("Leaving..."). 04:10:25 i think that my 3 wiggles are different enough to have a place on the hill 04:10:45 i'll wiggle you you.. wiggly... thing! 04:10:46 :P 04:11:30 they use a different structure... the only thing they share is that they try to get a cell to zero fast by using nested loops going in different directions 04:11:46 oh interesting 04:11:47 :) 04:11:53 wiggle1 is just a very simple implementation of that 04:12:06 someone was doing that a few days ago, but you seem to have had much more success with it ;) 04:12:06 so it goes...+--+++----+++++ etc and keeps checking? 04:12:13 or something more optimized 04:12:23 i tried using nested loops for a similar reason, but it didn't work out 04:12:27 it does -[-[-[-[++++[+ ... 04:12:28 i thought it was the speed loss because of ]]]]]]] 04:12:30 yeah 04:12:33 I was thinking 04:12:37 check five values one way, check five the other, etc 04:12:38 would be faster 04:12:42 but it might have been the hash rng at that time 04:13:08 on the other hand, i guess it's faster than -.-.-.-. for example 04:13:13 in wiggle 2 i did exactly the same... but "elminated" the ]]]]] 04:13:15 in cases where all those aren't necessary 04:13:29 which turns it into a rather large program 04:13:31 i see plenty of them? 04:13:42 myndzi: but they will be evaluated much less 04:13:56 worst case every 4 cells i think 04:14:14 i was going to make one where i nested everything so it never executes ]]]]] at all ;p 04:14:24 myndzi: would have been to large for that 04:14:34 (my definition of too large) 04:14:42 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com ."). 04:14:44 indeed, it was a pain in the ass 04:14:55 just take a look at that http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/in_egobot/jix_wiggle2.bfjoust 04:15:03 i did 04:15:26 and in wiggle3 i tried to do a tradeoff 04:15:36 a) i setup proper decoys 04:15:50 b) i combine the "wiggle" technique with the +++++[-] thing 04:15:52 (i should have let you take those 1/20th losses ;) 04:16:03 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:16:10 i noticed a lot of contstant fiddling 04:16:26 the way you did it allows you to be pretty highly tuned to the hill contents 04:16:32 c) i use [-.] [+.] to defeat defend 04:16:42 (but only for the 2nd and 3rd non zero cell) 04:17:00 jix: what about for the 4th? do you go back to [-] and [+]? 04:17:06 if so, that's what's defeating defend9 04:17:15 he does 04:17:16 + 04:17:18 -. 04:17:19 -. 04:17:20 +. 04:17:21 + 04:17:25 ah 04:17:35 myndzi: you got one additional -. there 04:17:43 * myndzi refreshes 04:17:45 well, in that case I could probably beat wiggle just by giving defend7 a few more decoys 04:17:59 and then he could beat defend by adding a few more lines too 04:18:03 lols 04:18:09 why don't you just add 30 decoys 04:18:10 :) 04:34:18 Mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao mao. 04:39:58 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:44:00 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:46:00 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:46:10 -!- ais523 has joined. 04:49:36 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:51:42 GregorR: i dont think mao is like buffalo, in that respect. 05:11:57 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:17:04 Score for kerlo__evil: 4.6 05:17:53 Oh. 05:17:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:18:10 Wow. EgoBot was loating http://normish.org/ihope/evil for that long. 05:21:16 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:22:53 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 05:57:01 -!- myndzi\ has joined. 05:58:29 -!- psygnisfive has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:59:22 -!- psygnisfive has joined. 06:04:36 -!- myndzi has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 06:18:33 dbc: Ah, yes. You're in here, too. XD 06:18:43 Yeah :) 07:19:27 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:12:54 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 08:20:18 -!- amca has joined. 08:39:59 -!- inurinternet has quit (Success). 08:56:39 AnMaster: http://lifthrasiir.jottit.com/exe i revised the spec. does it look reasonable? 09:00:45 -!- Slereah has joined. 09:53:28 -!- Patashu has joined. 09:56:40 lifthrasiir: Is it only possible to have sync io in such an OS, or would async io be also possible? 10:13:16 amca: have you looked at $05 xxxx 06..08 commands? 10:13:33 * amca looks 10:15:53 * GregorR-L puts forth again that any esolang-to-OS-through-stdout protocol should require or at least allow a \n at the end of every command sent. 10:16:24 Since some annoying interps (read: any interp that uses C stdio and doesn't fflush) will otherwise not send its data. 10:16:33 GregorR: oh, that's good idea. 10:17:14 I've mentioned that twice in previous (aborted or at least mostly aborted) such systems :P 10:17:29 :p 10:17:36 "# $05 xxxx 09 returns ??, which is true only if the handle is available for reading. On failure it returns error. # $05 xxxx 0a is same to $05 xxxx 09, but it's for writing." <- does that refer to checking if the io is ready-to-send/receive? 10:17:47 And in a week, somebody will ask why that's required, nobody will be able to answer, and it will disappear again, only for me to come back and explain it again. Oh, the cycle of annoying X-P 10:18:03 amca: something like select(2) system call. 10:18:16 Ah 10:18:21 tnx 10:18:31 (maybe i have to mention such equivalences) 10:18:44 GregorR-L: :p 10:18:58 lifthrasiir: Sorry, it's just happened before :P 10:19:05 GregorR-L, do you have any suggestions didn't make it into previous systems? 10:19:24 That's the only suggestion I ever had, I waited for them to mature a bit so I could poke around, and they never did. 10:19:38 Nobody can seem to get past the "idea" stage and to the "interpreter" stage for some reason. 10:20:13 that's bad. 10:20:26 but afaik PSOX has some implementation... 10:20:27 had* 10:21:38 lifthrasiir: Which part deals with signals, or h/ware interrupts/handlers? 10:22:44 amca: currently not, maybe added soon. 10:22:52 * lifthrasiir afk 10:35:19 :o 12:41:13 -!- clog has joined. 12:41:13 -!- clog has joined. 12:41:48 clog: We missed you! 12:44:08 * oerjan hugs clog 13:12:48 -!- tombom has joined. 13:13:01 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:34:27 From the spam directory: "Subject: Fortune cookies help cops naab suspect" 13:35:06 * oerjan has a naaging doubt about the spelling there 13:35:15 heh 13:43:02 lifthrasiir, the long integer format seems screwy 13:43:19 but interesting 13:49:45 rofl (but old) http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30832?utm_source=onion_rss_daily 14:10:48 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 14:14:44 -!- Corun has joined. 15:34:31 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 15:50:36 -!- Slereah has quit ("Leaving"). 15:59:51 -!- amca has quit ("the teacher I mean"). 16:14:55 -!- impomatic has joined. 16:15:41 -!- Slereah has joined. 16:24:38 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:35:50 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 17:05:40 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:09:56 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:13:59 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 17:14:44 I'm still thinking about a good I/O model for Migol. I want something elegant that jumps to the I/O subroutine, executes the I/O, modifies the memory and jumps back to the main program, without messing up the language. 17:16:09 -!- Patashu has quit ("Patashu/SteampunkX - MSN = Patashu@hotmail.com , AIM = Patashu0 , YIM = Patashu2 , Googletalk = Patashu0@gmail.com ."). 17:19:53 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 17:21:26 hm, what about sections, similar to actual assembly languages? 17:23:29 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:23:30 tetha: Sections? 17:25:16 MigoMipo: define a section as a sequence of statements, and entering a statement as setting the program counter to the first element in a section 17:25:46 MigoMipo: that way, you could have interrupt-based IO by simply executing the IO-section whenever the input-interrupt occurs (besides executing the code-section by default) 17:26:32 this would also generalize nicely to all kinds of interrupts :) 17:28:02 tetha: Sounds interesting, can it be used as an interface to for example C libraries? Jumping to an another Migol code section seems pointless. 17:29:33 MigoMipo: I think so. If you can map C's calling conventions into your memory model (which should be possible), then you could define something like a c-section which is entered upon the right interrupt 17:29:38 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:35:08 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:36:45 -!- AnMaster has quit ("ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net"). 17:49:07 -!- inurinternet has joined. 17:57:51 -!- M0ny has joined. 18:00:45 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:03:35 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:04:59 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:11:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:26:36 -!- olsner has joined. 18:28:42 -!- AnMaster has joined. 18:47:18 -!- jix_ has joined. 19:01:52 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:02:58 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 19:03:32 -!- jix_ has changed nick to jix. 19:18:10 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:25:35 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 19:27:00 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:38:58 -!- tetha has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:39:06 -!- tetha has joined. 20:03:29 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 20:06:35 -!- tombom has joined. 20:22:08 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 20:24:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 20:30:57 yay back on usable screen resolution 20:31:30 320x200 CGA 20:31:36 ___ 20:31:42 __ _ _ __ ___ _ _ ___ _ _ ___ _ _ _ __ __|__ \ 20:31:42 / _` | '__/ _ \ | | | |/ _ \| | | | / __| | | | '__/ _ \/ / 20:31:42 | (_| | | | __/ | |_| | (_) | |_| | \__ \ |_| | | | __/_| 20:31:42 \__,_|_| \___| \__, |\___/ \__,_| |___/\__,_|_| \___(_) 20:31:42 |___/ 20:32:39 * pikhq high-fives Ørjan 20:32:49 Can't read that in my IRC client, had to paste it to notepad. 20:33:07 impomatic: ... You don't have monotype IRC? 20:33:14 Monospaced, rather. 20:33:19 That's... Wow. 20:33:33 No, it seems not 20:34:02 well it's probably not _that_ important 20:37:41 -!- impomatic has quit ("connection terminated by profanity filter"). 20:40:51 oerjan, 1400x1050 20:41:25 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:41:38 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 20:41:57 oerjan, instead of 1280x1024 on TFT with 1400x1050 as native res! 20:42:03 (which seriously sucked) 20:44:53 why were you using that again? 20:45:34 Argh, LCDs not being run at native resolution! 20:46:10 usually either the graphics or the monitor is able to do letterboxing 20:46:55 Monitors don't letterbox. Evil, isn't it? 20:55:15 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 21:11:45 -!- Corun has changed nick to Corun|away. 21:14:01 -!- M0ny has quit ("Read error: 182 (Connection reset by beer)"). 21:44:05 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 21:47:34 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:52:25 11:03 GregorR-L: Since apparently the master logging bots are prone to deadeadead. 21:52:27 clog is rock-solid 21:52:37 tunes.org is not 21:52:57 19:33 pikhq: impomatic: ... You don't have monotype IRC? 21:52:57 19:33 pikhq: Monospaced, rather. 21:52:58 19:33 pikhq: That's... Wow. 21:53:00 nor I 21:53:39 i wrote two silly things today: 21:53:48 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:54:06 http://pastie.org/499629.txt?key=turhqwrztzeyugdoq3wzq 21:54:07 http://pastie.org/499631.txt?key=cosj6kske51habowtnh5qa 21:54:20 both have a rather complex backstory only comprehensible if your mind is identical to mine. 21:54:55 clog is rock-solid tunes.org is not <-- huh? 21:55:01 oerjan: what? 21:55:15 clog logs on tunes.org 21:55:18 i know 21:55:28 i'm saying that tunes.org is the problem; clog itself is rock-solid software that never crashes 21:55:38 hm 21:55:39 it just lacks, y'know, any open source code. 21:55:45 -!- Corun|away has changed nick to Corun. 21:55:52 it doesn't help that the tunes project is dead^A(g64,g64) 21:56:38 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:58:25 dead? 22:00:19 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:02:49 !c printf("%d\n", 0xdead) 22:02:51 57005 22:03:19 o 22:03:41 Busy beaver instead 22:04:40 busy beaver is computable isn't it 22:04:46 if you have a machine more powerful than what you're trying to busy beaver 22:05:14 um... 22:05:28 Well, you know it halts, so I guess you could just run every possible program of that length in parallel 22:05:33 exactly 22:05:42 takes a fuck of a long time, but very possible 22:05:59 And then count the 1's 22:06:12 yep 22:06:15 Maybe by using the LOVE MACHINE 9000 22:06:19 oerjan: prove me wrong 22:06:46 Here is a little beaver of hers : 22:06:47 [ 22:06:47 a[0:P1RI:b;1:P1LE:b]| 22:06:47 b[0:P1LE:a;1:P0LE:c]| 22:06:47 c[0:P1RIHA:c;1:P1LE:d]| 22:06:47 d[0:P1RI:d;1:P0RI:a] 22:06:49 ] 22:06:51 [0=0;ims=a;d13;vh;etTecT;t1] 22:06:53 :D 22:06:54 assuming you mean what i think you mean, it seems fine 22:07:09 oerjan: yeah; so why is busy beaver considered uncomputable? 22:07:18 a turing machine can calculate BB(x) for all x in finite time 22:07:22 well 22:07:25 apart from non-halting things 22:07:30 ehird: because it doesn't work if some of the programs you test might _not_ halt 22:07:43 oerjan: if it was an FSM this'd be trivial 22:07:44 grumble 22:08:05 oerjan: if you run it all in parallel and keep a running total you can oslev it practically (with a few billion years or thereabouts) 22:08:09 but that's not a pure solution 22:08:21 "oslev"? 22:08:23 oslev? 22:08:31 oerjan: solve 22:08:33 solve? 22:08:35 Ah 22:08:44 oslev: Solve practically but not theoretically. 22:08:44 :P 22:09:00 But yeah, it's true that you might have one that seems to not stop, but will 22:09:03 ehird: it's not a few billion years. once you get up to the length where you can embed an ackermann function... 22:09:05 In the distant future 22:09:09 oerjan: true 22:09:14 Slereah_: yeah 22:09:17 -!- Judofyr_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:09:22 BB(x,y) where y is a parameter for size of an FSM can be done trivially 22:09:23 though 22:38:35 -!- nooga has joined. 22:39:26 hello þar 22:39:49 Ð. 22:40:12 -!- tombom has quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22.2"). 22:42:56 pikhq: gimme one of those fancy f's 22:43:15 You mean s? 22:43:18 Yes. 22:43:23 I think I can ſee about getting you one. 22:43:27 \o/ 22:45:05 ſoo þar 22:45:08 soo thar 22:45:16 pikhq: Argh. Unicode has small-caps, but not for all letters. 22:45:20 (They're just for IPA) 22:45:30 Ugh. 22:45:43 wait 22:45:44 yes they do 22:45:45 \o/ 22:50:56 pikhq: 22:50:57 Brethren, and Fellow Citizens ! 22:50:58 22:50:59 Yᴏᴜ may depend, that thoſe odius Miſcreants and deteſ– 22:51:01 table Tools to Miniſtry and Governor, the Tᴇᴀ Cᴏɴꜱɪɢɴᴇᴇꜱ, 22:51:03 (thoſe Traitors to their Country, Butchers, who have done, and are do– 22:51:05 ing every Thing to Murder and deſtroy all that ſall ſtand in the Way 22:51:07 of their private Intereſt,) are determined to come and reſide again in 22:51:09 the Town of Boſton. 22:51:11 22:51:13 I therefore give you this early Notice, that you may hold yourſelves 22:51:15 in Readineſs, on the ſhorteſt Notice, to give them ſuch a Reception, as 22:51:17 ſuch vile Ingrates deſerve. J O Y C E, jun. 22:51:19 (Chairman of the Committee for Tarring and Feathering. 22:51:21 22:51:23 ☞ If any Perſon ſhould be ſo hardy as to Tear this down, they may 22:51:25 expect my ſevereſt Reſentment. J. jun. 22:51:30 I can't see all of that; not all of the smallcaps show up right. 22:52:02 pikhq: I can give you a plaintext document with which to use another font on. 22:52:18 Mmkay; URL? 22:52:28 http://pastie.org/499720.txt?key=thydhbk8cjeonqchaaagq (also added a space to the first line, to align as in the original letter) 22:52:35 well, notice 22:52:43 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/BostonTeaPartyJoyceNotice.jpg ← I think I did a pretty good reproduction 22:52:52 Thare. 22:52:52 Designed for a monospaced font 22:55:23 -!- Patashu has joined. 22:55:35 heh— [[In the colonies, Benjamin Franklin stated that the destroyed tea must be repaid, all 90,000 pounds.]] 23:02:02 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:02:12 loeb loeb loeb loeb loeb loeb 23:02:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:02:40 Who's (a) around, (b) knows haskell? 23:02:49 hi 23:02:57 * pikhq pokes oerjan 23:04:24 'lo there 23:04:36 ...aw damn, I had an idea but I realised that it required a type of (a = a -> b) 23:04:55 specifically: a function which, when given a function of its type, probes it with inputs to attempt to determine if it's itself. 23:05:07 so mirror :: a = a -> Bool 23:05:36 newtype Mirror = Mirror (Mirror -> Bool) 23:06:16 needs only a little additional pattern matching 23:07:30 I seem to remember seeing that before 23:08:26 oerjan: ah, goo 23:08:27 d 23:09:24 oerjan: I'm not sure it's possible 23:09:32 i wonder if it isn't going to be hard creating one that isn't constant or non-terminating 23:09:47 yeah 23:10:02 you can pass special functions as "signals" to the questionee, but how do you detect if you get one? 23:10:05 infinite regress 23:10:06 well, ok you have const True and const False 23:10:55 hm it may not be that impossible to get some information 23:11:02 * ehird writes a draft implementation 23:11:13 oerjan: it can't be perfect, of course 23:11:36 newtype Mirror = M { runM :: Mirror -> Bool } for a little convenience, perhaps 23:11:53 18:04 < ehird> ...aw damn, I had an idea but I realised that it required a type of (a = a -> b) 23:11:54 then M (const True), M (const False) are examples 23:12:01 is this Haskell? 23:12:05 if so, what does that mean 23:12:14 and from those you can make M ($ const False), etc. 23:12:16 comex: yes 23:12:23 mirror :: Mirror -> Bool 23:12:23 mirror (Mirror f) = 23:12:24 let r1 = f $ const True 23:12:26 r2 = f $ const False 23:12:28 it's a start 23:12:37 and you can do boolean operations on the result 23:13:14 err, wrap of course 23:13:30 oerjan: the problem is that if you do "f (Mirror f)", you don't terminate when passed yourself 23:13:39 right 23:13:53 I mean, what does a type of (a = a -> b) mean 23:13:58 or is that pseudo-syntax 23:14:00 comex: pseudo 23:14:08 comex: it means "type a such that a -> b" 23:14:13 as in, f f f f f f 23:14:14 is valid 23:14:19 you can't represent it; it's not sound 23:14:23 but you can do it w/ a newtype 23:14:29 (since that adds a safety boxing layer 23:14:30 ) 23:14:35 er 23:14:40 f $ f $ f $ f $ that is 23:14:41 well 23:14:43 OMG Gregor is back in Indiana. 23:14:45 that's for (a = a -> a) 23:14:58 newtype actually does only virtual boxing, it doesn't show up in the compiled result 23:15:02 yes 23:15:05 but it's boxing in theory 23:15:28 it's not non-strict boxing 23:15:36 oerjan: it's theoretical boxing 23:15:37 type boxing 23:16:17 mirror :: Mirror -> Bool 23:16:17 mirror (Mirror f) = 23:16:19 let r1 = f $ Mirror (const True) 23:16:21 r2 = f $ Mirror (const False) 23:16:23 in traceShow (r1, r2) False 23:16:25 → 23:16:27 *Main> mirror (Mirror mirror) 23:16:29 (True,True) 23:16:31 (False,False) 23:16:33 (False,False) 23:16:35 ehird: Mirror ($ const True) 23:16:35 False 23:16:37 i'm doubting this is possible without specially-crafted sentinel functions 23:16:39 and I'm unsure how to craft them 23:16:43 oerjan: ehm, what's that do? 23:16:53 oerjan: that doesn't type yo 23:16:54 er wait 23:16:56 mirror (Mirror `on` the wall)... 23:17:00 Asztal: yeah :) 23:17:24 Asztal: the pun was of course on the magic mirror detecting who the fairest of them all is, and introspection 23:18:37 ehird: you're probably going to get some diagonalized non-terminating counterexample anyway 23:18:50 coke mixed with coffee 23:18:58 evil 23:18:58 oerjan: nontermination on some inputs is fine 23:19:07 but mirror (Mirror mirror) should always be True 23:19:14 and most random functions of the tpe should be False 23:19:15 *type 23:19:18 nooga: the drug or the drink? 23:19:34 the drink 23:19:39 boring 23:19:41 the drug is yuck btw 23:19:55 :) 23:20:29 ehird: hm with wrapping my ($ const True) should become M ($ M (const True)) 23:20:38 oerjan: what would that do? 23:20:42 I don't follow how it works 23:21:00 -!- Corun has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:21:04 *Main> Mirror ($ Mirror (const True)) 23:21:04 :1:8: 23:21:05 Couldn't match expected type `a -> b' 23:21:07 against inferred type `Mirror' 23:21:08 it tests by applying f to M (const True) 23:21:09 if only it typed. 23:21:16 erm 23:21:17 oerjan: 23:21:18 let r1 = f $ Mirror (const True) 23:21:20 r2 = f $ Mirror (const False) 23:21:22 oh, I see 23:21:24 wait 23:21:26 no I don't 23:21:31 doesn't my example do that? 23:21:31 what do we call mutable variables? 23:21:38 nooga: evil. 23:21:40 but: state 23:21:43 ehird: yes 23:21:53 what are them? ;f 23:21:59 ehird: but then you could test more by using _that_ as the test 23:22:08 oerjan: follow i don't 23:22:10 nooga: state 23:22:11 to apply to 23:22:21 oerjan: what does f get? 23:22:25 lige 23:22:28 like* 23:22:36 ehird: for any test function you make, you get a new test by applying to the first 23:22:54 define a,b,c here { something something } forget a,b,c ? 23:22:58 oerjan: sorry? 23:23:04 oerjan: gimme a function (test->newTest) 23:23:06 and I'll understand 23:23:15 nooga: what? 23:23:28 ehird: yodawg t (Mirror f) = f (Mirror t) 23:23:46 oerjan: no, not function and test 23:23:48 test->newTest 23:23:51 give an argument to f, get a new one back 23:24:21 ehird: t is the old test, yodawg t the new one 23:24:38 oerjan: so (\test -> Mirror test) 23:24:47 aka Mirror 23:24:50 i'm not sure of the effects, oerjan 23:24:59 what happens to the function? 23:25:04 sheesh 23:25:07 ehird: i'm not sure if i understand 23:25:23 could you give my an example? 23:25:32 ehird: why don't you just try yodawg out? 23:25:33 nooga: I have no idea what the heck yo're talking about 23:25:35 *you're 23:25:47 ehird: about mutable vars 23:25:54 oerjan: because I can blindly apply functions all day but my mirror doesn't return reasonable results so I'd have no idea at all what it does 23:25:58 nooga: be more specific dammit 23:26:54 http://llvm.org/docs/tutorial/OCamlLangImpl7.html << about wtf is that chapter about 23:27:14 nooga: that is not what I meant! 23:27:17 WHAT is your question to me? 23:27:53 oerjan: wait, I get it 23:27:59 ehird: about wtf is that chapter about 23:27:59 whew 23:28:03 oerjan: we're asked: detect this function. we give it (const True). 23:28:06 we pass that result on. 23:28:19 what are those "mutable variables" 23:28:22 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:28:25 nooga: variables you can change 23:28:30 as opposed to invariable variables 23:28:36 erm 23:28:51 if domething is called a variable it's variable, right? 23:28:55 no 23:28:59 for instance, 23:29:03 a :: Integer; a = 2 23:29:07 in haskell, that's (informally) a variable 23:29:10 but you can't reassign it 23:29:13 nooga: it's a relic of old names 23:29:18 we made variables, then we made immutable variables 23:29:21 and now they're commons 23:29:24 so we say mutable variables 23:29:34 immutable variables: just names for values 23:29:43 mutable variables: names for changable state that contains values 23:30:09 okay 23:30:16 now it's clearer 23:30:33 oerjan: but I'm not sure how wrapping it helps us decide about the function 23:30:38 nooga: an immutable variable, like in mathematics, doesn't vary in a _single_ use, it varies _between_ uses 23:31:03 i mean, not only should mirror interrogate its argument; if we think we're being called by mirror (i.e., it's responding like we would), we should try and pass information it expects back 23:31:08 oerjan: erm 23:31:10 oerjan: no 23:31:17 don't say that, that's wrong 23:31:21 that's not what it means in this context 23:31:24 in fact I've never heard that 23:31:33 it's maybe too vague 23:31:41 no, it's just wrong 23:32:19 i wonder if it's possible to use partial evaluation to generate all possible cases of type usage in a SADOL program 23:32:42 to generate fast code that doesn't care about types in runtime 23:33:21 hm put it differently, it doesn't vary within its scope, but it can have a different value if you enter its scope again 23:33:35 oerjan: nope 23:33:37 that's not what it means 23:33:39 simply wrong 23:34:06 ehird: in mathematics? 23:34:12 i don't know about mathematics 23:34:14 I am talking about programming 23:34:17 and language design 23:34:22 okay okay 23:34:22 and the term is never meant as you say 23:34:25 -!- sebbu has joined. 23:34:28 programming borrowed the word from math 23:34:34 now i moved my thoughts to partial evaluation 23:36:27 nooga: why not write a sadol interp, and a specializer? 23:36:31 that'd be so more futamura. 23:36:51 hm 23:37:15 probably harder than a compiler 23:37:25 * oerjan read that as futurama 23:37:36 i guess he gets that a lot 23:37:38 and with llvm i can make something quite optimal 23:37:42 * nooga either 23:37:47 nooga: do you know what a specializer is? 23:37:47 well 23:37:48 in this cas 23:37:50 e 23:37:51 yea 23:37:53 it's (interpreter → compiler) 23:37:57 so the specializer could make an LLVM compiler 23:37:58 i've read that twisted paper 23:38:04 yes, a bit harder, but fuck, a lot coole. 23:38:05 r 23:39:38 porbably i'm too stupid to make it work 23:40:07 probably* (destroy all mac keyboards) 23:40:39 nooga: buy another keyboard, foo 23:40:43 and it's an apple kb 23:40:51 Man, a specialiser would be cool. If tricky. 23:41:24 pikhq: they exist 23:41:27 they're crap, but they exist 23:41:31 -!- coppro has joined. 23:41:47 hey 23:41:51 greenity. 23:42:04 i assume that the specialiser is a program that modifies the code of interpreter to obtain an instance of the interpreter suited for interpreting specific program 23:42:10 and then the interpreter is compiled 23:42:11 no 23:42:17 nooga: that's one of the projections, pretty much 23:42:19 (but more detailed) 23:42:25 nooga: but another projection, is you give it an interpreter 23:42:27 and we've got relatively fast running program 23:42:30 and it gives you a compiler (interpreter → program) 23:43:02 nooga: http://blog.sigfpe.com/2009/05/three-projections-of-doctor-futamura.html read this, it'll get you psyched about futamura 23:43:14 pikhq: huh, youtube hd is 720p 23:43:17 i thought it was 540p 23:43:18 i've read that once, at night 23:43:19 or w/e 23:43:25 and it was too much 23:44:20 ehird: Yeah. 23:44:36 ... There *are* specialisers? 23:44:39 you know what's awesome?