00:00:56 <ehird> fizzie: I think my apps-can-specify-whether-to-multitask-or-not is best; if you home-button on a multitasking one, you see it warp into the "Open Applications" icon (not just away into the void), and its little red knob increases count. If you want to quit a multitasking app instead of suspending it, if you hold down home you'll get three buttons: Force Quit (what holding down does now), Quit, and Cancel.
00:01:14 <fizzie> It's just that my five years old Symbian-7.0s-or-something "smart"phone can do the thing. As for UI, it doesn't even try to do anything more than a single application on-screen at a time. It's just that you can use the "switch" button to select which one you want. Oh, and there's some sort of notification system thing where a backgrounded app can put a speech-bubble-like thing on there.
00:01:26 <pikhq> ehird: That would be a decent solution.
00:01:34 <ehird> That way, only things like IRC clients run in the background; it's easy to see when you background an app vs quitting it; there's visual notification you have backgrounded apps open; and you can choose not to background an app.
00:03:58 <fizzie> Well, I wouldn't mind that. Though I still would be annoyed if I had to quit any sort of complicated-task application just because I wanted to jot down a note. Or was there already some things you still could do without quitting an application? (Though I guess it doesn't matter, I don't see myself iPhonizing anyway.)
00:04:32 <ehird> fizzie: Well, if you held down the home button, the "Quit" would turn into "Suspend" for non-multitasking apps.
00:04:35 <ehird> So you could do that.
00:05:01 <ehird> But I'm sure they've thought about it and I'm sure my trivial idea has been brought up.
00:05:07 <ehird> It's not terribly intuitive for users, I'd think.
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00:15:51 <fizzie> Eh, I think I'll sleep. Have to wake up in 5 hours to be at a church; there's this confirmation thing of the wife's parents' godchild, and for some reason they told me to attend to. Even though oddly enough I seem to start to feel mildly (physically) unwell in any sort of religionistic loci. Strange, that.
00:16:10 <ehird> fizzie: "religionistic loci" is a brilliant phrase.
00:16:55 <fizzie> I thought "church" would be too common a word, and anyway had already used it once.
00:17:04 <fizzie> I guess it's some sort of incompatibility. Anyway, nights.
00:17:51 <ehird> fizzie: Go there dressed up as Charles Darwin. Including the beard.
00:17:57 <ehird> ...do it then, rather.
00:20:36 <augur> myndzi: \o/ \o/ \o/
00:20:56 <augur> sorry, i just wanted to get some myndzinian \o/ing
00:21:04 <ehird> augur: "Augur" was a command.
00:21:29 <Slereah> _o_ /o/ \o\ _o/ \o_ /o_ _o\ \o/ /o\
00:21:30 <myndzi> /< >\ /< /< |\ /`\ /< /`\ /|
00:21:32 <ehird> myndzi's script amuses my client; sure, it does mIRC naming, BUT YOU DID NOT ACCOUNT FOR THE FACT THAT I USE A PROPORTIONAL FONT!
00:22:04 <ehird> augur: Here I was, thinking I was going to like, NOT die.
00:22:14 <augur> well i didnt say i was a very INSIGHTFUL augur
00:22:22 <pikhq> ehird: Proportional fonts are t3h lame.
00:22:48 <augur> unless you're writing real documents.
00:22:49 <ehird> pikhq: Don't say such things or someone will sodomize you with typography.
00:22:52 <augur> in which case they're wonderufl.
00:24:11 <ehird> Like unto a bitch.
00:25:09 <ehird> Like unto a virgin bitch.
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04:22:11 <zzo38> Freenode doesn't support + type channels!
04:22:31 <pikhq> Which is of course lame.
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05:21:42 <augur> whats a + type channel?
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05:29:58 <augur> god that was such a horrible movie
05:43:10 <augur> oh is that about the fight at the end?
05:43:20 <augur> i skipped that part.
05:48:17 <CESSMASTER> then why did you bother sitting through any of the movie at all?
05:51:31 <augur> i wanted to see what it was like
05:51:36 <augur> so i can say from experience that it was shit
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10:16:00 <oerjan> <ehird> fizzie: Go there dressed up as Charles Darwin. Including the beard. <-- um most european churches are not creationist afaik, so it would just look silly, not majorly offensive.
10:16:35 <oerjan> they'd think he'd gone nuts, and they would be right.
10:17:16 <oerjan> (heck, most _american_ churches are probably not creationist either.)
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16:14:24 <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/langs.png
16:14:34 <Slereah> This is the first time I ever heard of esolangs
16:26:43 <Slereah> WHY ARE YOU SO SILLY LOOKING INTERCAL
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18:46:29 <oerjan> of course not. _i_ am INTERCAL. also, napoleon.
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18:49:52 <oerjan> ais523 on the other hand is a turing machine. also, jesus.
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18:52:03 <ais523> oerjan: I'm not a Turing machine, I don't have infinite memory
18:52:15 <Slereah> Are you a finite state machine?
18:52:31 <Slereah> Wait, I guess not, you can't have infinite input
18:52:42 <Slereah> What's the word for really finite machines
18:52:48 <oerjan> ais523: sure you do, you just need to work on your left/right stepping
18:53:37 <oerjan> i'm not sure there's a difference.
18:53:41 <Slereah> oerjan : But the earth is wrapping
18:53:45 <oerjan> finite state = bounded-storage...
18:54:02 <oerjan> unless it's only asymptotically bounded in the input.
18:54:03 <Slereah> oerjan : But finite state can do infinite output or input
18:54:17 <oerjan> well so can bounded-storage, surely?
18:54:32 <oerjan> input and output don't need to be stored, after all
18:54:54 <Slereah> Well, yeah, but in the real world, they exist in some way
18:54:55 <oerjan> is there an actual technical difference...
18:55:38 <oerjan> Slereah: it's not very reassuring that the first google hit on bounded storage machine is the esolangs wiki
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18:56:39 <fizzie> There's also the "real" concept of linear-bounded automata.
18:56:58 <oerjan> oh it's technically different, but not in a way that changes the abstract computability class, i think
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18:57:35 <oerjan> bounded-storage machine = like tm but has bounded length tape, finite state automaton = has no tape at all
18:58:38 <oerjan> for tms, the input and output is included in the tape
18:58:46 <oerjan> so it really is different
18:59:47 <oerjan> or, well, the article discusses both bounded and unbounded input
19:00:27 <fizzie> And the linear-bounded automata has a tape whose length is a linear function of the initial input, to summarize it as briefly.
19:01:59 <oerjan> yeah well that's just a special case of space complexity
19:03:16 <oerjan> since linear is big enough to include the original input, it is. but for smaller complexity classes one uses a more subtle method.
19:03:33 <fizzie> It's still an interesting special case because it's the automaton-thing that corresponds to context-sensitive grammars.
19:04:30 <oerjan> for smaller classes one uses extra tapes. the input and output tapes can be as long as you want, but you can _only_ read and write to them, respectively.
19:04:59 <oerjan> while the actual working tape has length O(f(n)) where n is the length of the input tape.
19:05:24 <fizzie> The "BSMs with bounded input" esolang subsection's explanation why it's less powerful than a FSM is (in my mind, anyway) more complicated than the alternative trivial thing, which would be "bounded input == finite language == obviously strictly less powerful than a FSM".
19:05:49 <oerjan> this way you can meaningfully talk about logspace e.g. (a very interesting class i think)
19:08:27 <fizzie> Complexity people are not very user-friendly with their abbreviations. I mean, just the list at http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Zoo is... not trivial.
19:14:58 <oerjan> i expect a lot of them are quite obscure
19:16:39 <oerjan> some like L, P, NP may have special abbreviations because they are so important. others may have special abbreviations because they are so radical no old notation fits for them :D
19:17:21 <oerjan> but there are also the parametrized classes like TIME() NTIME() SPACE() NSPACE()
19:17:50 <oerjan> those are probably as userfriendly as you can get
19:19:36 <oerjan> and things like PSPACE/EXPTIME/EXPSPACE don't _quite_ fit into them, because they are not the SPACE() and TIME() of single functions...
19:19:54 <oerjan> i suppose someone could clean it up a lot if they wanted to though.
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21:17:44 <ehird> 09:16 oerjan: <ehird> fizzie: Go there dressed up as Charles Darwin. Including the beard. <-- um most european churches are not creationist afaik, so it would just look silly, not majorly offensive.
21:17:48 <ehird> but darwin looks fucking awesome
21:17:52 <ehird> 09:17 oerjan: (heck, most _american_ churches are probably not creationist either.)
21:18:11 <pikhq> Most that are sane are.
21:18:41 <pikhq> And the sane ones are invariably in major population centers.
21:19:04 <oerjan> um how can you be sane and creationist?
21:19:06 <pikhq> The East Coast, for example, only has sane churches (from my experience)
21:19:17 <pikhq> oerjan: s/Most/All/
21:19:39 <oerjan> pikhq: are you reading my sentence backwards?
21:19:41 <pikhq> Man, when I went to Boston, it was weird... Churches flew gay pride flags.
21:19:52 <ehird> 18:08 fizzie: Complexity people are not very user-friendly with their abbreviations. I mean, just the list at http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Zoo is... not trivial.
21:19:54 <ehird> it's like chemistry!
21:19:54 <pikhq> oerjan: I'm being weird.
21:20:14 <oerjan> pikhq: you mean incomprehensible
21:20:26 <ehird> pikhq: you are reading it backwards :)
21:20:36 <ehird> you're saying all sane churches are creationist wrt what oerjan said
21:20:50 <pikhq> Which is the exact opposite of what I mean.
21:21:12 <ehird> 21:19 oerjan: um how can you be sane and creationist? ← you know, there's two simple substitutions I could do here, and I'll only do one for sake of not upsetting people
21:21:22 <ehird> um how can you sane and in #esoteric?
21:21:32 <pikhq> Do the other one, please.
21:21:55 <ehird> no, you'll lynch me :D
21:22:27 <oerjan> we are insane, remember?
21:22:29 <ehird> kay then: um how can you sane and religious?
21:22:29 <pikhq> I'm nearly a complete pacifist here, man. ;)
21:22:45 * ehird is sodomized by a nearby pack of bears
21:23:17 <oerjan> i didn't know he had a family
21:23:27 <ehird> actually, I'm referencing the bible.
21:23:32 <fizzie> So the pedobear gets angry when people diss religion? That's curious.
21:23:40 <ehird> allow me to quote:
21:23:41 <pikhq> Ah, yes, the pack of bears.
21:23:51 <ehird> "And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head."
21:23:53 <ehird> "And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."
21:24:11 <ehird> The morale? "If you call someone a baldhead, bears will fuck you up."
21:24:15 <pikhq> tare = scared, BTW.
21:24:27 <ehird> "As long as said baldhead curses you."
21:24:30 <oerjan> i vaguely recall i used that quote to chase a jehova's witness away once. haven't seen any since.
21:24:42 <oerjan> (well not the quote but that story)
21:25:04 <pikhq> Of course, that only works well on people who hold the Bible to be 100% literal truth.
21:25:12 <oerjan> *seen any near my home since
21:25:21 <ehird> pikhq: as opposed to the even crazier ones who pick at will :-P
21:25:31 <oerjan> they keep handing out pamphlets in town, of course
21:25:33 <ehird> i want some jehovah's witnesses to come by here so I can tell them I've been excommunicated
21:25:50 <ehird> terminology, ehird.
21:26:23 <ehird> http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/happy-plane.jpg Adorable.
21:26:26 <fizzie> Gah, this makes me ashamed of my country-place: http://www.livescience.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=060810_evo_rank_02.jpg
21:27:06 <ehird> fizzie: yow; you guys have a lot of crazy people then?
21:27:15 <ehird> strange that norway and sweden are much further up
21:27:25 <ehird> aren't the three countries usually quite similar?
21:27:32 <fizzie> Yes, that's the strange bit.
21:27:35 <ehird> i mean, modulo culture
21:28:30 <pikhq> ... Only 40% of people in the US accept evolution?
21:28:42 <ehird> Where have you been?
21:28:48 <ehird> The US is a shitfest.
21:28:51 <fizzie> Admittedly they did an "intelligent design" lecture in our university and all. But that was all the work of one crazy person, I think.
21:28:58 <pikhq> I thought it was at least 50%...
21:29:23 <ehird> Anyway, you all need to GET A BRAIN! MORANS
21:29:42 * pikhq is strongly considering moving
21:30:00 <ehird> pikhq: But if you move you won't have to put your packets IN SPACE.
21:30:43 <pikhq> I don't want packets in space, I want *civilization* IN SPACE!
21:30:52 <ehird> I want to move to TIME.
21:30:56 <ehird> And put my TIME in SPACE.
21:31:39 <ehird> Every time I idly think about what country I'd like to move to, basically my main concern beyond the whole "nice set of freedoms" thing is the internet.
21:31:59 <ehird> Because I can't even get more than 6mbps here, and the best in the UK is 24mbps.
21:32:29 <pikhq> Which is pretty much on par with the US.
21:32:48 <ehird> I really don't know why people like the USA.
21:33:21 <ehird> It's not particularly pretty in most of the places, your politics are seriously right-wing, your internet is 3rd-world, an awful lot of stupid people dwell there, it's insanely corporate...
21:34:11 <pikhq> About the only thing we've got going for us is that our university system is pretty good – IF YOU CAN AFFORD IT.
21:34:27 <ehird> That's true, I'd love to go to mit.
21:34:48 <ehird> (Unfortunately there's other obstacles to that, like I don't think I'd do terribly well :P)
21:35:57 <ehird> I don't like how they've made their CS course into a practical thing.
21:36:10 <ehird> Dropping SICP, changing to Python and making you drive a stupid robot was the stupidest thing a university has ever done.
21:36:41 <pikhq> ehird, US. We've got universities with far more stupidity.
21:37:09 <pikhq> Most state-funded universities spend most of their funds on their sports teams.
21:37:31 <ehird> There are two accredited universities that I know of, one teaches creationism and the other is part of a cult :)
21:37:32 <AnMaster> <Slereah> http://membres.lycos.fr/bewulf/Russell/langs.png <-- fails to resolve as usual here.
21:37:43 <ehird> AnMaster: use opendns.
21:37:56 <ehird> it's faster to boot.
21:40:53 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Complexity people are not very user-friendly with their abbreviations. I mean, just the list at http://qwiki.stanford.edu/wiki/Complexity_Zoo is... not trivial. <-- you could say they are.... complex
21:41:07 <ehird> not funny not funny not funny
21:45:55 <ehird> "Next time you wonder to yourself why a bug exists in Microsoft software, consider the possibility that Microsoft simply want it that way."
21:46:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> it's faster to boot. <-- my dns is so fast I don't notice any slowness compared to opendns
21:46:59 <AnMaster> but iirc opendns did some crazy redirecting thingy for a few sites or something
21:47:09 <ehird> AnMaster: Two things.
21:47:25 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDNS#Privacy_issues.2C_conflicts_and_covert_redirection
21:47:27 <ehird> "A program that produces incorrect results twice as fast is infinitely slower." Your DNS does not resolve some sites, and besides OpenDNS is unlikely to be _slower_.
21:47:33 <ehird> You can disable that.
21:47:41 <ehird> It takes three seconds to disable everything and just give you DNS
21:48:09 <ehird> Also, that article is... not unbiased.
21:48:40 <pikhq> Use OpenNIC instead.
21:48:57 <AnMaster> "This redirection breaks some non-web applications which rely on getting an NXDOMAIN for non-existent domains, such as e-mail spam filtering, or VPN access where the private network's nameservers are consulted only when the public ones fail to resolve." <-- I use such programs btw.
21:48:57 <ehird> No, don't, unless you're part of the lunatic fringe of DNS.
21:49:02 <ehird> AnMaster: SO DISABLE IT
21:49:25 <AnMaster> ehird, I see. So I need to login to use this dns? That means I need to login every time my ip changes?
21:49:36 <AnMaster> Since I have a very dynamic ip that would be a PITA
21:49:47 <ehird> AnMaster: If your IP is dynamic, then yes, you need to run a program to update it. There are daemons which take up about zero usage that do it automatically.
21:49:50 <AnMaster> basically, every time the adsl modem reconnects I get a new ip
21:50:03 <ehird> That's... everyone without an explicit static IP, not "very".
21:50:10 <ehird> Most people leave their ADSL connected, though...
21:50:18 <AnMaster> ehird, too much work for one single site being broken which Slereah mentioned was broken from many other places too (see logs from 2009)
21:50:36 <ehird> AnMaster: there have been many others that you have said don't resolve.
21:50:39 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, but sometimes it disconnects for no obvious reason
21:50:49 <AnMaster> often when there are thunderstorms for example
21:51:04 <ehird> if you don't want to fix the resolution and don't care about it being faster, then at least don't point it out and complain about an easily fixable problem.
21:51:14 <AnMaster> ehird, a few has been timing out yes. IIRC most of them did resolve
21:51:44 <ehird> I don't know. I don't remember such things because I don't care enough.
21:51:57 <ehird> "it can be faster" does not mean "it is slow".
21:51:58 <AnMaster> ehird, in fact, resolving is very snappy.
21:52:10 <ehird> Most resolvers are.
21:53:09 <ehird> I don't help lazy people attempt to make invalid, vague experiments without even a sufficient sample size or reptition
21:53:21 <ehird> AnMaster: without disabling the proxying, it may be slower.
21:54:00 <AnMaster> using resolver1.opendns.com (208.67.222.222) it is around 0.182s-0.197s to resolve irc.freenode.net
21:54:27 <ehird> (a) you're using the domain for the resolver, so you're doing two requests
21:54:34 <ehird> (b) see what I said about sample size, repetition
21:54:38 <ehird> (c) see what I said about proxying
21:54:51 <ehird> in short, your results are bullshit
21:54:59 <ehird> AnMaster: that is not "sample size".
21:55:11 <AnMaster> ehird, sure, other domains too.
21:55:27 <ehird> Furthermore, (a) and (c).
21:55:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I wasn't using domain for resolver
21:55:59 <ehird> And "AnMaster: using resolver1.opendns.com (".
21:56:09 <AnMaster> which was what I actually used
21:56:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Additionally, you're claiming you can perceive 0.02sec
21:56:16 <AnMaster> I was using the host name for clarity over irc
21:56:23 <ehird> Protip: you cannot.
21:56:32 <ehird> AnMaster: That is the difference between the two speeds.
21:57:37 <AnMaster> ehird, normal resolving is 0.016 here though. dnsmasq on localhost
21:57:51 <AnMaster> but here I explicitly used my isp's one just to show you
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21:58:04 <ehird> So use dnsmasq with OpenDNS.
21:58:05 <AnMaster> ehird, also above I said: <AnMaster> <ehird> it's faster to boot. <-- my dns is so fast I don't notice any slowness compared to opendns
21:58:12 <AnMaster> means: I can't notice any difference
21:58:15 <AnMaster> "<ehird> AnMaster: Additionally, you're claiming you can perceive 0.02sec"
21:58:32 <ehird> if you can't notice any difference then which one you use doesn't matter for speed, so we defer to "it can resolve more sites".
21:58:58 <AnMaster> ehird, software daemon for the dynamic ip thing for opendns?
21:59:30 <AnMaster> searching for "opendns" in package repo yielded no results
22:00:13 <ehird> AnMaster: make an account, add a network, go to settings, ignore content filtering, click stats and logs, decheck enable, apply, advanced settings, enable dynamic IP update, uncheck typo correction and .cm, uncheck shortcuts, proxy and botnet
22:00:22 <ehird> AnMaster: I'll check for a linux program
22:01:27 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.opendns.com/support/dynamic_ip_downloads/ None for Linux, unfortunately, but http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=update+ip+opendns+linux&aq=f&oq=&aqi= might help. From the "Technical Details" tab it just seems to be a POST over https.
22:01:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Found it.
22:01:33 <ehird> elinks -auto-submit 1 -dump https://username:password@updates.opendns.com/nic/update?
22:01:34 <AnMaster> "Oops, you aren't using OpenDNS yet. Go back to Step 1 to set up OpenDNS." <-- wait, you can't create an account before you use their dns server? huh?
22:01:41 <ehird> AnMaster: You did it rong.
22:01:47 <ehird> It should work if you set the IPs.
22:02:11 <AnMaster> ehird, hm? I was going to create an account before I was going to change what resolver I'm using...
22:02:19 <ehird> Well I think you might have to
22:02:40 <ehird> AnMaster: there's one of them
22:02:40 <ehird> http://www.opendns.com/support/article/192
22:02:57 <AnMaster> ehird, ddclient is for updating dyndns and such?
22:03:04 <ehird> Click the article.
22:03:09 <ehird> You can make it work for opendns.
22:03:17 <ehird> It uses the dyndns protocol.
22:03:34 <ehird> Make sure to do the tick things I said; it's the combination you need to disable all the fluff.
22:03:55 <AnMaster> yeah... also it seems I can't create the account in lynx?
22:04:03 <ehird> It does JS stuff, I think.
22:04:07 <ehird> Just use a proper browser :p
22:04:20 <ehird> Their site and the guide aren't too nice, but the service is great.
22:04:55 <AnMaster> the site isn't accessible. As in WAI. Not as in resolving.
22:05:15 <ehird> Yes, well, many sites aren't.
22:05:17 <ehird> It's a sad reality.
22:05:21 * pikhq randomly notes that someone needs to write an ECMAscript compiler
22:05:45 <ehird> AnMaster: thankfully, most actual screenreaders are far more clever than the w3c gives credit for
22:06:01 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, because they have to be
22:06:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Ha! With gmail I just do penguinofthegods+COMPANY@gmail.com. Then if they can spam me I can tell and shun them forever.
22:07:09 <AnMaster> ehird, you could quite easily figure out what part was the real one though...
22:07:18 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and I checked, it doesn't work on my isp :/
22:07:22 <ehird> AnMaster: No, because + is a valid character in email addresses.
22:07:30 <ehird> foo+bar+quirky@awesomemail.com is perfectly valid.
22:07:38 <ehird> And foo+bar+floopy doesn't need to be the same person.
22:07:44 <ehird> Admittedly nobody cares and you could detect, but nobody does because nobody cares.
22:08:06 <AnMaster> ehird, oh, isn't the the "redirect to the same account thing"? but with some sort of alias
22:08:29 <ehird> It's a gmail feature.
22:08:33 <fizzie> The + is just a convention there, is I guess what ehird wants to say.
22:08:38 <ehird> Gmail also ignores dots, so you can do penguinofth.egods@gmail.com
22:08:39 <fizzie> It's not exactly a gmail-only thing.
22:08:50 <ehird> I've only heard it for gmail
22:09:08 <fizzie> I think qmail used to have some sort of easy/built-in support for it too.
22:09:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I think I was referring to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-mail_address#Sub-addressing
22:09:31 <fizzie> Oh, they've written an RFC about it.
22:09:44 <ehird> gmail uses - for it?
22:09:54 <ehird> because-nobody-hyphenates-words-like-lisp?
22:10:23 <AnMaster> ehird, Err what has djb got to do with lisp?
22:10:31 <fizzie> I thought it was +. But I could be wrong.
22:10:39 <ehird> this-is-lisp-style-hyphenation. read-your-link-AnMaster-and-read-the-qmail-part.
22:10:46 <ehird> On the other hand, most installations of the qmail and Courier Mail Server products support the use of a hyphen '-' as a separator within the local-part, such as joeuser-tag@example.com or joeuser-tag-sub-anything-else@example.com
22:10:55 <AnMaster> anyway, I checked, none of those work on my isp
22:10:58 <ehird> So you can't have an-email-account-with-a-hyphen-in.
22:11:06 <AnMaster> guess they turned it off or something
22:11:15 <ehird> AnMaster: NOT EVEN anmaster(poop)@isp.com????????????????
22:11:34 <AnMaster> ehird, well the comment is cut out on client side iirc?
22:15:11 -!- M0ny has quit.
22:16:19 <oerjan> this-is-lisp This. Is. SPARTAAAAA.
22:17:27 <fizzie> Postfix has a "recipient_delimiter" parameter you can set to, for example, "+", but it's not on by default. And a couple of other settings that talk about what happens to those things in address-rewriting.
22:20:50 <fizzie> But + is what all the documentation examples use.
22:27:50 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
22:31:08 <AnMaster> ehird, this now fails to resolve some geoip thingys correctly, like google
22:31:26 <ehird> Uh, that's not right.
22:31:27 <ehird> It works fine for me.
22:31:38 <ehird> If it's going wrong, you did something wrong.
22:32:17 <ehird> geoip stuff works perfectly for me.
22:32:40 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe they have a resolver in UK but not one in Sweden?
22:32:57 <ehird> i thought you had a dns cache thing, anyway?
22:33:06 -!- nice has joined.
22:33:07 <ehird> Surely you tend to only resolve google once in 500 years?
22:33:31 <ehird> ...that doesn't mean you resolve it a lot.
22:33:34 -!- nice has left (?).
22:34:07 <AnMaster> ehird, also I didn't mean that. I meant that I get a google server that is 25 hops away according to traceroute, instead of 10 like before. One in US instead of in Europe.
22:34:17 <ehird> Yeah, that shouldn't happen
22:34:43 <ehird> Why not ask ehird, the master of OpenDNS knowledge? I'll take a look.
22:35:04 <ehird> AnMaster: As a worst-case scenario, you can add google.com to your /etc/hosts.
22:35:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Does it still say "Go to Google Sweden" on the page?
22:35:36 <AnMaster> I think their servers handle that somehow
22:35:51 <ehird> I wouldn't think google would assume country(dns)=country(user).
22:35:56 <ehird> Surely the IP they give you picks a server.
22:35:59 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and it actually says "Go to Google Sverige"
22:36:14 <AnMaster> wait... firefox is probably not using the new one *restarts firefox*
22:36:56 <ehird> Ctrl-F5 or whatever.
22:37:36 <AnMaster> ctrl-f5 didn't change it however
22:37:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Then our problem is definitely separate; it still tells me I can use the UK site.
22:37:56 <ehird> AnMaster: traceroute opendns
22:38:01 <ehird> see where there server is
22:38:37 <AnMaster> 15 hops so far and still going
22:42:04 <AnMaster> ehird, http://pastebin.ca/K72ch2Y7 (pass abcd)
22:42:17 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
22:42:22 <ehird> Why on earth did you use a password?
22:42:31 <AnMaster> ehird, because I wanted to see how it worked
22:42:51 <ehird> AnMaster: Well, just find out where the server you're using is, 'sall :P
22:43:03 <AnMaster> ehird, that trace ends up in UK
22:43:14 <AnMaster> so the opendns server is somewhere in UK clearly
22:43:24 <ehird> AnMaster: but it doesn't offer to send you to the UK google
22:43:38 <AnMaster> ehird, correct. It didn't offer me anything at all
22:43:53 <AnMaster> except suggesting that I was lucky. I disagree.
22:44:23 <ehird> That's very strange. Thankfully it shouldn't affect much more than Google and you can put that in /etc/hosts. I suggest making a thread on the OpenDNS forums for a long-term solution.
22:44:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I do use some other geodns thingies
22:44:50 <AnMaster> lets see what happens to kernel.org
22:45:40 <AnMaster> wait, they stopped using geodns? heh
22:45:51 <ehird> September 19, 2008: mirrors.kernel.org has been flipped over to using our new GeoDNS based bind server (named-geodns). This means that, at the dns query level, our servers will attempt to direct you to the nearest / fastest kernel.org mirror for your request. This means that you no longer have to use mirrors.us.kernel.org or mirrors.eu.kernel.org to generally route you to the right place. This does mean a change to mirrors.kernel.org no longer explicitly
22:45:53 <ehird> pointing at mirrors.us.kernel.org. Additional information on named-geodns will be forth coming, check back here for an addendum soon.
22:46:13 <AnMaster> as in www.kernel.org vs. eu.kernel.org
22:47:20 <AnMaster> ehird, okay, opendns dumps me on the EU ones, but if the resolver is in UK that would be suspected.
22:47:47 <ehird> AnMaster: It really should only affect things like Google; there aren't going to be all that many sites that both use GeoDNS and are big enough to have a server in multiple places in the EU.
22:48:33 <ehird> Buy some rackspace and set up a Swedish server for them :-P
22:48:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Do you really want Microsoft's site to load fast? :)
22:48:58 <ehird> As slow as possible plz
22:49:33 <AnMaster> anyway microsoft.com resolves to somewhere in US using both my ISP's DNS and opendns
22:49:45 <AnMaster> iirc they use microsoft.se and such too
22:49:52 <pikhq> As slow as possible still implies that it can be accesed.
22:49:57 <AnMaster> 8 nyc9-core-2.pos2-0.swip.net (130.244.194.205) 124.187 ms 125.484 ms 125.713 ms
22:49:57 <AnMaster> 9 some.new-york.router.msn.net (130.244.200.202) 127.790 ms 125.200 ms 127.039 ms
22:50:04 <ehird> some.new-york.router?
22:50:09 <AnMaster> 9 shows unusual humour for being microsoft
22:50:42 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm a bit scared, this shows microsoft can actually manage to not totally fail to be funny
22:50:51 <AnMaster> (sorry for double negation... I think)
22:50:57 <pikhq> Nuke it from orbit; it's the only way to be sure.
22:51:04 <ehird> AnMaster: To be honest, individual Microsofties are okay, and I imagine slipping that hostname by the bean counters would be easy enough.
22:51:11 <ehird> To be fair, rather.
22:51:40 <AnMaster> Microsofties <-- why does this sound like some sort of teddy bear...
22:52:17 <AnMaster> or maybe something clean-ex like thingy, with microfibres
22:52:28 <AnMaster> also... lycos still fails to resolve
22:52:31 <pikhq> ehird: Yeah; most of the awfulness of MS comes from their truly awful corporate structure.
22:52:35 <ehird> AnMaster: What, really?
22:52:59 <pikhq> Among other things, nobody has access to the full Windows source code.
22:53:11 <pikhq> Or API documentation, for that matter.
22:53:21 <ehird> pikhq: The buildbot sure does ;-)
22:53:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Your local one?
22:53:36 <pikhq> ehird: For obvious reasons.
22:54:17 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I flushed it... but I think maybe nss keeps one too
22:54:33 <AnMaster> so clearly there is a hidden cache somewhere
22:54:54 <ehird> http://web.archive.org/web/20031203024955/http://illusionary.com/GNOMEvKDE.html ;; someone should make a Windows entry for this
23:00:25 <ehird> [[So there's over 4 million lines of kernel source. Let's assume 10% is
23:00:26 <ehird> comments, so there's about 3.6 million lines left. Each of those lines
23:00:27 <ehird> has to be checked for C++ keywords. Assume that you can do about 5
23:00:29 <ehird> seconds per line (very optimistic), work 24 hours per day, and 7 days
23:00:32 <ehird> This is from a kernel developer.
23:00:34 <ehird> Translation: "What is grep?"
23:02:35 <ehird> pikhq: when you move from the US, move OS too.
23:03:00 <ehird> Kernel. Sorry, zealot ;-)
23:03:19 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, I thought you were doing some GNU/Linux terminology shit :P
23:03:21 <pikhq> I do believe that that is far too dumb.
23:03:32 <pikhq> No, just a thinko.
23:04:29 <pikhq> But seriously. Grep?
23:04:39 <AnMaster> lycos.fr fails to resolve due to broken glue upsetting dnsmasq
23:04:48 <pikhq> I can do 5 milliseconds per line, working 24 hours per day, 7 days per week.
23:04:57 <ehird> No use crying over broken clue.
23:04:57 <ehird> pikhq: 5ms per line?
23:05:03 <pikhq> AnMaster: You realise dnsmasq caches, right?
23:05:12 <ehird> pikhq: What kind of chip you got in there, a dorito?
23:05:23 <AnMaster> pikhq, so I think I made sure to avoid that issue
23:05:24 <ehird> More to the point... what kind of harddrive?
23:05:41 <ehird> 5ms to process a sequentially-read file?
23:06:12 <AnMaster> FYI: I just tried with bind 9.4.3... it fails too on lycos.fr
23:06:29 <ehird> AnMaster: But you can look it up directly with opendns, right?
23:06:37 <ehird> So as long as you hook up your cache/proxy/etc, it should work fine.
23:06:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I always use local cache
23:06:58 <ehird> So hook it up to OpenDNS, and it'll work.
23:07:04 <pikhq> ehird: I was off by an order of magnitude, Mmkay?
23:07:23 <ehird> AnMaster: How about telling me what I said incorrectly? I read.
23:08:22 <AnMaster> ehird, it fails due to broken glue for the lycos.fr domain. This happens even with opendns. It depends on the cache software. Since using host directly on isp for it works. And on OpenDNS.
23:08:41 <ehird> Surely your cache just directly caches the OpenDNS response?
23:08:41 <AnMaster> but using dnsmasq, it gets confused by the glue so it can't resolve it
23:08:53 <AnMaster> ehird, can't you fucking read?
23:09:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Your rebuttal to what I say is just "you're not reading", despite the fact that I have read it all. Perhaps you should consider the unthinkable alternative: I don't understand what you are trying to tell me.
23:09:52 <ehird> Why would glue break the DNS cache? Don't they just directly cache OpenDNS' response?
23:10:23 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I don't know this well enough to explain it well, what I'm saying is based on logged error messages and tcpdump here. I don't understand DNS well enough internally to know *why* this is an issue.
23:10:49 <ehird> Try djbdns' dnscache?
23:10:55 <AnMaster> But some googling indicates it is due to broken glue on the domain, a phrase I heard before. IIRC there is an explaination on djb's site
23:10:58 <ehird> (if you don't mind daemontools cruft)
23:11:10 <AnMaster> ehird, I already use qmail, remember!
23:11:16 <ehird> What, on your local system?
23:11:36 <ehird> I use a mail server.
23:12:07 <ehird> AnMaster: But my system is not on 24/7
23:12:11 <ehird> What use is cron output to me?
23:12:32 <ehird> I postulate that you use a server that happens to have a graphical terminal attached to it, not a desktop.
23:12:34 <AnMaster> ehird, and I always have script checking logs based on white-listing regexps!
23:12:49 -!- nice has joined.
23:12:56 <AnMaster> good thing when there is a thing in /var/log/messages about SMART indicating disk is failing
23:13:05 <AnMaster> wouldn't be nice to not notice it
23:13:06 <ehird> It will be a day of infinite jest, that one where a trivial backdoor in your system causes all your data to be decrypted and stolen
23:13:37 * oerjan scribbles down AnMaster for his local chapter of Paranoiac Persecutors Anonymous
23:13:44 <ehird> oerjan: hey, that's a good idea.
23:13:47 <AnMaster> ehird, I am aware of that no system is perfect... But data-diodes are so damn expensive ;P
23:13:54 <ehird> I should set up a secret society to pander to all conspiracy theories, except we only do it to the paranoids.
23:14:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, Paranoiac Persecutors Anonymous?
23:14:25 <oerjan> we persecute paranoid people. anonymously.
23:14:30 <AnMaster> oh wait... read it as *panoramic*
23:14:32 <ehird> "Can I use djbdns without daemontools? Yes."
23:14:35 <ehird> http://www.fefe.de/djbdns/
23:14:57 <ehird> i only tried to set it up once and couldn't get it workin
23:14:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you can use anything that handles wrapping them in some way
23:15:04 <ehird> but it left a shitload of daemontools crap
23:15:22 <AnMaster> ehird, also... getting *any* MTA to work is hard.
23:15:24 <ehird> so much nicer than sysv
23:15:43 <ehird> I'm talking about dns
23:16:11 <AnMaster> there is all the "get all the dns shit right or everyone will think you are a spammer" bit too
23:16:45 <AnMaster> reverse dns, forward dns, right response, right error codes, right forward domains list, right own domains list...
23:18:12 -!- nice has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:18:21 <ehird> I'm so happy for outsourcing.
23:18:32 <ehird> (The internet services kind.)
23:23:09 <oerjan> "we're now outsourcing our email filtering to china"
23:24:13 <ehird> well i'm outsourcing your mom to your face.
23:25:03 <AnMaster> <ehird> I'm so happy for outsourcing. <-- examples?
23:25:23 <AnMaster> ehird, which specific provider is doing it?
23:25:33 <AnMaster> btw, why do you think daemontools is bad?
23:25:37 <ehird> email - google, dns - opendns
23:25:49 <AnMaster> ehird, lots of other email services
23:25:59 <ehird> google's is better.
23:26:14 <ehird> and it beats a small company; google don't have -time- to read my email.
23:26:20 <AnMaster> ehird, my own server > anyone else * (true for each sysadmin)
23:26:22 <ehird> AnMaster: pollution in the form of /service, and other things
23:26:35 <ehird> also, I have better things to do than fuck around with such things
23:26:40 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah it should have used /etc/daemontools/service or such
23:26:42 <ehird> gmail does verything i want
23:27:09 <AnMaster> kind of like "very everything"
23:28:07 <AnMaster> ehird, downside is it would be hard to differentiate from "very thing" when spoken. (As in: "the very thing")
23:28:44 <ehird> mi'e eliat xrd with some punctuation I don't care to remember
23:28:54 <ehird> also with the caveat that that lojbanization sucks.
23:29:07 <AnMaster> ehird, ah, but with the wrong punctuation it means "your wife is a big hippo"
23:29:23 <ehird> lojban would never do that to me
23:29:26 <ehird> would you lojban <3
23:29:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I seriously hope you got that reference at least!
23:30:13 <ehird> after googling, no, I still don't.
23:30:28 <AnMaster> ehird, ever read "Interesting times". I think it was that book
23:30:32 <ehird> Oh, tv tropes informs me it's terry pratchett.
23:30:46 <AnMaster> ehird, right. And a pretty famous line too
23:30:48 <ehird> — fuck, I clicked on tv tropes.
23:31:01 <AnMaster> nice and quiet evening in here then
23:31:03 <ehird> googled for the book name to escape
23:31:23 <ehird> AnMaster: tv tropes says "interesting seasons"
23:31:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I managed the art of escaping tv troupes easily
23:31:37 <ehird> googling doesn't suggest that's a real book
23:31:40 <AnMaster> ehird, wget and render to text with no links!
23:31:49 <ehird> wget? w3m -dump, bitch
23:31:52 <AnMaster> ehird, it's "Interesting times"
23:32:09 <AnMaster> ehird, so someone messed it up on tv troupes
23:32:24 <ehird> if reading tv tropes does this, I can't imagine how bad editing would be
23:32:43 <AnMaster> ehird, you would end up making a webcomic with lego.
23:32:53 <AnMaster> (yes DMM edits on tv troupes in case you didn't know)
23:33:32 <AnMaster> oerjan, and I agree with the annotation
23:39:22 -!- immibis has joined.
23:40:27 <AnMaster> ehird, does the quality of the sound card really effect how much bass it can produce? comparing with a mic (using same mixer settings) between the on-board audio and the sb live card, then using audacity to plot the frequencies show that the on board card cut off frequencies below about 40-50 Hz
23:40:37 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc you said something about on-board being as good?
23:40:47 <ehird> How modern is this onboard?
23:40:56 <ehird> And are frequencies <40-50hz actually audible?
23:40:57 <AnMaster> 00:11.5 Multimedia audio controller: VIA Technologies, Inc. VT8233/A/8235/8237 AC97 Audio Controller (rev 60)
23:41:10 <AnMaster> ehird, from 2008 iirc. since I had the mobo replaced on warranty then
23:41:18 <ehird> What market range is the mobo?
23:41:20 <AnMaster> might be 2007, but it was replaced in 2008 anyway
23:41:30 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure how you define those
23:41:37 <ehird> How much would it cost retail?
23:42:08 <ehird> If you don't know... how many RAM slots does it haev?
23:42:11 <AnMaster> ehird, went on warranty and they had to replace with a different brand, so no idea about the new one
23:43:16 <ehird> a quick glance suggests budget
23:43:44 <ehird> anyway, this is irrelevant if <40-50hz isn't audible
23:44:25 <immibis> Does anyone know how to embed a large (4-5MB) binary file in an executable when compiling it with gcc on windows?
23:44:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I can notice the difference with the dubwoofer in this recording of Vivaldi's summer (City of London Sinfonia)
23:44:41 <ehird> hmm, ok, it is audible
23:44:46 <ehird> lowest c on an 88 key piano is 32hz
23:44:57 <ehird> AnMaster: dubwoofer? Is that like a subwoofer but for extra treble?
23:44:58 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it is very very noticeable here
23:45:13 <ehird> i hope you got my joke.
23:45:19 <ehird> anyway, then your onboard sound sucks I guess
23:45:38 <AnMaster> dub? I only know what that is in Swedish
23:45:39 <ehird> AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dub_music
23:45:44 <ehird> it always sounds trebley to me
23:45:55 <AnMaster> dub in Swedish is the stuff you have on winter tyres(sp?)
23:46:10 <AnMaster> to make it get a better grip on ice
23:46:20 <pikhq> ... You've got pointer metal bits on your winter tires?
23:46:35 <ehird> AnMaster: call them MËTAL TIRES
23:46:41 <ehird> Hmm, there's a thing I like about vinyl
23:46:43 <ehird> You can listen to the needle
23:46:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubbdäck
23:47:36 <pikhq> ehird: Missouri's in the South.
23:47:39 <pikhq> I used to live in Colorado.
23:47:43 <ehird> Yes, but it's south of North America.
23:47:58 <pikhq> Which tended to have rather rough winters.
23:48:15 <AnMaster> there is a .no interwiki link too
23:48:39 <pikhq> Though generally you only needed extra traction for mountain roads, and so you'd stick chains on your tires.
23:49:45 <pikhq> Ah. English is "stud".
23:49:49 <ehird> I wonder if you can get them on bicycle wheels.
23:49:54 <ehird> Bump! Bump! Bump! Bump!
23:50:15 <AnMaster> pikhq, I mean, when it is snowing so much they haven't had time to remove the snow yet.
23:50:39 <AnMaster> the plows just can't remove the snow as fast as it is falling.
23:51:09 <pikhq> In most of the US, that happens at most once a year.
23:51:10 <AnMaster> snowplows I guess is the right term
23:51:27 <pikhq> The rest of the year, studded tires just damage the roads.
23:51:44 <pikhq> Chains do the same thing, but they can be removed easily.
23:51:55 <AnMaster> pikhq, well, the first time every year it happens tends to be worst. Because somehow everyone is unprepared. Even though they know it happened every year before around this time of the year. +/- a week or two
23:52:08 <AnMaster> <pikhq> The rest of the year, studded tires just damage the roads. <-- indeed
23:52:35 <ehird> "C1016744Approximately the tone that a typical CRT television emits while running. "
23:52:36 <oerjan> norwegian cities (including trondheim) have a special stud tax to encourage people to use stud-free winter tires
23:52:36 <AnMaster> which is why you aren't allowed to use studded tires during the summer
23:52:45 <ehird> that file + my ears = kill
23:53:00 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_frequencies
23:53:03 <pikhq> Honestly, I didn't know you could get studded tires.
23:53:21 <AnMaster> pikhq, it is very common here during winter.
23:53:26 <pikhq> I guess they're banned or *something*.
23:53:38 <oerjan> oh and it's illegal to use studs in the summer
23:53:42 <pikhq> ehird: That's an annoying tone, yes.
23:53:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah it works great in cities... But not out on the countryside
23:53:54 <ehird> pikhq: all CRTs make it
23:53:55 <AnMaster> oerjan, and studs really help on ice
23:55:23 <pikhq> ehird: Believe me, I know.
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23:55:36 <ehird> WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
23:55:37 <AnMaster> *grumble* why did anyone get the not so bright idea to put connectors on the back of desktops
23:55:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: This is why people use tire chains in the US. ;)
23:55:45 <ehird> AnMaster: aesthetics
23:55:52 <ehird> AnMaster: most modern cases have usb ports in front
23:56:11 <AnMaster> ehird, what? the aesthetics of a knee pressing the reset button by mistake when you bend behind the computer?
23:56:27 <ehird> Put your computer on your desk.
23:56:30 <AnMaster> also IMO aesthetics should go to hell when it makes things impractical
23:56:39 <ehird> USB ports in front is fine.
23:56:43 <ehird> Covers 90% of stuff.
23:57:26 <FireFly> Bleh, my case only has one USB port in front ._.
23:57:49 <pikhq> Moral of the story: USB needs to be about as fast as PCIe x16.
23:58:03 <pikhq> Only stick USB ports on computers.
23:58:07 <ehird> FireFly: What, not $30 important?
23:58:08 <ehird> pikhq: Yes please.
23:58:21 <ehird> Multiple port types are the suck.
23:58:41 <AnMaster> ehird err, usb for the power too?
23:58:45 <pikhq> AnMaster: You can gang them together for more speed. :P
23:58:50 <pikhq> AnMaster: Hells yes!
23:58:56 <AnMaster> would the wall outlet be the host then?
23:58:56 <ehird> pikhq: Well, 1 gigabyte/sec is quite slow
23:59:02 <FireFly> It's not like I have that many things using USB connected to the computer at the same time
23:59:06 <AnMaster> since usb is based on host-<whatever the other one was>
23:59:12 <FireFly> And I have several ports at the back
23:59:40 <ehird> PCIe x16 = 16 gigabytes/sec