00:00:09 if you combine with me you'll insert random words accidentally! 00:00:15 and you complain about MY english! 00:00:17 With your powers combined, I am CAPTAIN PLANET! 00:00:24 EARTH 00:00:25 FIRE 00:00:26 WIND 00:00:28 WATER 00:00:30 HEART 00:00:36 BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED 00:00:36 no no no 00:00:39 I AM CAPTAIN PLANET 00:00:44 LACK OF HOMONYM DISTINGUISHING 00:00:50 WAIT 00:00:51 let's start over 00:00:51 what 00:00:59 ABILITY TO NOT DISTINGUISH HOMONYMS 00:01:03 ABILITY TO NOT RECOGNIZE SYMBOLS 00:01:06 which homonyms 00:01:11 ABILITY TO NOT AVOID INSERTING RANDOM WORDS 00:01:15 BY YOUR POWERS COMBINED 00:01:16 I AM CAPTAIN PLANET 00:01:19 augur: ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ backlog 00:01:32 also 00:01:40 silhouettes are not symbols. 00:01:45 they're depictions. 00:01:48 theres a difference. 00:01:53 waaaaaaah i'm augur and i'm a pedant who hates funny 00:02:04 well it was rather funny actually 00:02:09 but the word choice was wrong 00:02:34 its funnier if you realize that symbolic intelligence is distinctly human, while silhouette recognition is something even lowly reptiles can do 00:02:52 -!- coppro has joined. 00:03:33 that's irrelevant to it 00:03:46 * Warrigal makes an angry post about the Monty Hall Problem. 00:05:11 Warrigal: are you really able to get angry about that? 00:05:22 * oerjan predends to make an angry post about how Warrigal ignores the subtleties of the Monty Hall Problem. 00:05:30 *pretends 00:06:03 Well, no, I'm not. 00:06:34 A bit smug, perhaps. 00:06:47 a bit? 00:09:50 And precisely the point I'm making has been made, probably in more detail, eighteen years ago. 00:09:58 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 00:14:23 hmmmw 00:14:34 i wanna buy a box, put openbsd on it 00:14:42 give it a hugely phat internet pipe 00:14:43 (so no ddos) 00:14:47 deny everything in the firewall 00:14:50 apart from web traffic 00:14:59 run a server that rejects ANY invalid http at first sight 00:15:05 and only serves static pages extremely securely and quickly 00:15:09 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:15:12 then put a huuuuuuuuuge library of exploits on there 00:15:14 and taunt anti-sec 00:15:21 >:) 00:16:27 also, put some anti-ddos crap on there 00:16:29 just in case they try 00:23:04 http://detexify.kirelabs.org/classify.html 00:23:05 AWESOME 00:23:11 find latex symbols by drawing them 00:28:20 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:28:27 Wow. 00:29:20 ehird: BTW, "a server that rejects ANY invalid http at first sight" -- I believe that OpenBSD's patched Apache will suffice. 00:29:48 pikhq: Apache is far too big to trust like that. 00:30:20 Apache 2 is, yes. 00:30:40 So is Apache 1. 00:30:44 I'm thinking thttpd sort of thing. 00:31:14 I seem to recall that OpenBSD did regular security audits of their Apache. 00:31:22 *shrug* 00:31:30 Few lines of Haskell, then? 00:31:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:32:03 pikhq: they may well do; that won't help against anti-sec's undisclosed exploits 00:32:06 I would not trust Haskell in this system. 00:32:10 not even gcc 00:32:30 Then you don't trust OpenBSD. 00:32:32 :P 00:32:35 OpenBSD, smallest system possible, locked-down firewall apart from web traffic, extremely minimal, extremely hardened static web server, simple anti-DDOS measures 00:32:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:32:46 that's about as trustable as you can get 00:32:58 (no ssh access either; configure it before coloing it) 00:33:17 ... You're making it more secure than OpenBSD is outside of the box. 00:33:23 That is... Impressive. 00:33:37 *out of the box 00:33:59 Anyway, I'd enjoy imagining their acne-filled faces swelling up into a fury. 00:34:09 "HOW DARE THEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!" 00:34:51 I suggest starting with thttpd and hardening that. 00:37:13 pikhq: 00:37:14 Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC) = 9,758 00:37:19 thttpd 2.25b 00:37:27 from 29 dec 03 00:37:36 pikhq: it's not exactly small 00:37:45 and i'm not sure i'd trust unmaintained software THAT much 00:39:23 pikhq: ideas for a base: boa, fnord 00:39:31 fnord uses djb-style stuff 00:39:34 so is probably quite secure 00:39:36 and it's also very fast 00:40:00 boa is a bit unmaintained and slower than fnord 00:40:10 pikhq: otoh, then we need to trust both openbsd libs AND the djb libs 00:40:49 And the OpenBSD libs are probably more trustable. 00:41:57 pikhq: considering djb's security recodr that's not necessarily true 00:42:30 pikhq: ok, it depends on dietlibc and libowfat 00:42:33 well 00:42:35 it includes libowfat 00:42:52 http://www.fefe.de/libowfat/ is a reimplementation of libdjb under GPL 00:42:59 diet libc everyone knows 00:43:05 pikhq: hey, can OpenBSD use dietlibc by default? 00:43:10 that way you could reduce the things to trust 00:43:20 esp. if they have a maintained fnord 00:43:22 No, it has its own libc. 00:43:28 not even an option? 00:43:41 And I think that nobody's even tried porting other libcs to it. 00:44:08 Besides which, nuking the libc gets rid of the address space randomization of its malloc. 00:46:14 True. 00:46:43 pikhq: but fnord in itself comes to 1,953 SLOC 00:46:53 including the distribution perl and shell scripts :P 00:46:56 1,894 of C 00:47:32 pikhq: although libowfat is 12,464, it's questionable how much is actually used in fnodr 00:48:34 But LOC is a bad measure. 00:49:01 pikhq: The easier to audit, the more trustable you can heuristicerize. 00:49:41 heuristicerize 00:49:58 Yes. 00:50:30 `define heuristicerize 00:50:32 No output. 00:52:24 `define GregorR's face 00:52:25 No output. 00:52:29 Two things that do not exist by GregorR's logic. 00:52:34 Oh—snap. 00:55:36 `define hystericize 00:55:37 No output. 00:56:48 I HAS KITTY 00:59:18 sir, that is not a kitty, that is a sewer rat 01:00:10 Well, then it's a big, fuzzy, pretty sewer rat. 01:00:25 That purs. 01:00:32 Hmm. 01:00:38 schemy little bugger 01:00:40 There's more to a qubit than probabilityOfBeingOne, right? 01:00:46 (And associated operations.) 01:01:01 sure, also phase 01:01:25 oerjan: that's helpful :D 01:01:52 actually, a single qubit state is a complex vector with 2 coordinates 01:02:24 n qubits, 2^n coordinates 01:02:24 oerjan: i don't see how that's actually related to a qubit, though 01:02:34 it seems that one qubit is just a probability of being 1 or 0 01:02:42 And of course there's entanglement. 01:03:17 GregorR: Uhh, that's accounted for. 01:03:26 ehird: the problem is that that gives you no help when collecting more than one qubit together 01:03:43 a|0> + b|1> → probability=0.5 01:03:48 oerjan: hmm 01:03:55 oerjan: so qubits can't be [Qubit]? you need to have them linked? 01:03:59 makes sense I guess 01:04:10 unless they don't communicate 01:04:57 oerjan: i assume you need that for staples like Shor's algorithm, so let's ignore that 01:05:05 i'm just wondering what a Bog Standard Qubit is 01:06:51 a and b complex numbers as above, with |a|^2 + |b|^2 = 1 01:07:24 and |a|^2 and |b|^2 are the probabilities of 0 and 1 respectively 01:08:07 oerjan: so it's ((a,b),(c,d))? 01:08:24 huh? 01:08:32 i didn't mention any c or d 01:09:04 oerjan: "a and b complex numbers" 01:09:10 a complex number can be represented as (real,imag) 01:09:17 yes 01:09:28 so it's ((r1,i1),(r2,i2)) 01:09:41 > 2 :+ 3 :: Complex Double 01:09:42 2.0 :+ 3.0 01:09:54 oerjan: so "a and b complex numbers" isn't true 01:09:57 that implies two complex numbers 01:09:58 a and b 01:10:02 yes 01:10:08 so which is it? 01:10:16 a is a complex number, b is a complex number 01:10:19 okay 01:10:28 so (a,b) where a = (r1,i1) and b = (r2,i2) 01:10:37 what was that site with a series of numbered mysterious items? 01:10:37 oerjan: and [ri][12] are reals? 01:10:43 yes 01:11:00 oerjan: can said reals be uncomputable? :-D 01:11:18 well in principle... 01:11:47 but you won't get that if you only apply computable unitary transformations 01:12:01 it was iirc a three-letter initialism 01:12:13 oerjan: will you get rationals or computable reals? 01:12:41 ehird: hm, might depend on your operations 01:12:53 oerjan: "quantum complete" 01:13:11 i'm not sure what things like shor's algorithm uses 01:14:21 oerjan: isn't that hardaadandjand gate transform + fourier "quantum complete? 01:14:22 " 01:14:22 ? 01:14:46 i suppose it is considered to be so? 01:14:51 helpful :D 01:15:27 oerjan: so, I'm not sure how you go from (a,b) → probabilityOfOne 01:15:32 i don't remember what those are, at the moment 01:15:44 i said that, |b|^2 01:15:55 ah 01:15:57 so what's a used for? 01:16:04 which is the same as r2^2 + i2^2 01:16:36 also |b| = abs(b)? my mathematical notation is rusty 01:16:41 it was really funny too! no-one remembers? 01:16:41 the phase of a can still vary 01:16:47 yes 01:16:50 olsner: no 01:16:58 olsner: care to be more specific? 01:17:01 01:16 oerjan: the phase of a can still vary 01:17:01 wat 01:17:24 ehird: knowing |b|^2 determines |a|, but not the phase of a 01:17:32 the phase 01:17:42 * ehird stares. blankly 01:18:09 ehird: it was about a fictional organization that had as its mission to keep artifacts with mysterious powers safe 01:18:40 each artifact was numbered also 01:18:43 olsner: scp 01:18:53 SCP. 01:18:55 olsner: http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/ 01:19:04 Secure, Contain, Protect. 01:19:24 olsner: if you find it *funny* i think you're reading the bad ones :D 01:19:38 oerjan: |a|^2 + |b|^2 = 1 right? 01:19:40 sez wp 01:19:43 ehird: in polar coordinates, a = |a|*e^(i*theta) 01:19:53 http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/ 01:19:56 ehird: funny as in entertaining, not as in haha-funny 01:20:09 SCP it was! thanks! :D 01:20:17 olsner: hmm. odd usage. is that common in — *checks* — swedish? 01:20:32 = |a|*cos(theta) + i|a|*sin(theta) 01:21:11 oerjan: that just lets me determine a from |a| 01:21:14 not a from nothing 01:21:19 theta can vary independently from |a| 01:21:39 well whatever 01:21:48 oerjan: i saw a qubit.py that was like 70 lines 01:21:52 this sounds far too complex for that :D 01:21:59 ehird: i am pointing out that even if you know b, and that |a|^2+|b|^2 = 1, you don't know everything about a 01:22:08 ah 01:22:12 how quantum. 01:22:43 * pikhq quantises ehird 01:22:48 ehird: the word for funny does primarily mean funny in swedish too, but something that is entertaining is also fun 01:22:53 pikhq: i'm underage. 01:23:00 olsner: right, fun != funny 01:23:09 ehird: Okay, so you're not all that many quantums. 01:23:23 i'm very quantum 01:23:24 if you know what i mean 01:24:00 Prelude Data.Complex> (1 :+ 2) :+ (3 :+ 4) 01:24:00 :1:0: 01:24:01 No instance for (RealFloat (Complex t)) 01:24:02 awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww 01:24:33 (1 :+ 2) + (3 :+ 4) you mean? 01:24:36 ehird: the second :+ should be just + 01:24:50 noooo 01:24:53 i want to make it a qubit 01:24:54 :) 01:25:04 i was being silly 01:25:08 and trying to use :+ as (,) 01:25:20 well that won't work reasonably 01:25:23 :< 01:25:24 :P 01:26:09 a qubit is a pair of complex numbers? or a quaternion? 01:26:13 !c++ test 01:26:16 GregorR: add it. 01:26:52 "(Exactly what unitaries can be applied depend on the physics of the quantum device.)" 01:27:36 ehird: so it is possibly not agreed upon what quantum complete requires... 01:28:09 hmmm 01:28:10 :P 01:28:12 grmbl wikipedia locking up 01:30:56 import System.Environment 01:30:56 main = mapM_ putStrLn =<< getArgs 01:30:56 vs 01:31:00 #include 01:31:00 int main(int argc, char **argv) { 01:31:02 for (int i = 0; i < argc; i++) puts(argv[i]); 01:31:04 } 01:31:06 We report, you decide! 01:31:28 The latter being bad style :) 01:31:37 the latter doesn't print newlines 01:32:09 oerjan: man puts 01:32:10 Yes it does. 01:32:16 O_o 01:32:26 * oerjan swats self -----### 01:33:20 The C is about 1.9s faster, though. If you pass it 1000000 arguments. 01:33:28 :D 01:34:06 If you pass only a measly 100000, it's 0.179s slower. 01:34:09 Oh, the humanity 01:34:13 s/$/./ 01:34:27 -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 487K 2009-07-13 01:28 foo 01:34:27 -rwxr-xr-x 1 ehird staff 13K 2009-07-13 01:32 foo2 01:34:32 And the ghc executable is KILOBYTES bigger! 01:34:33 what about main = putStr . unlines =<< getArgs ? 01:34:54 oerjan: that's not what the C does. 01:35:04 oh well 01:35:05 and writing THAT in C would be true torture 01:36:57 i mean 01:36:59 first you'd have to malloc() it all 01:37:01 and expand dynamically 01:37:04 then you'd have to write a join function 01:37:06 which again allocates 01:37:08 and writes a whole new string 01:37:12 (the haskell here would have an advantage, building bit by bit) 01:37:14 and then print it 01:37:20 if you combine the two steps, resulting in harder-to-read code, it's still hard 01:37:52 Whereas the Haskell is about as easy to read as a UNIX pipeline. 01:38:01 putStr . unlines only describes the result though - I'd say it's perfectly sensible to write a per-character iteration or something like that instead in C 01:38:12 pikhq: Well, it's written applicative-y 01:38:19 "getArgs >>= mapM_ putStrLn" would be pipey 01:38:32 olsner: read up 01:38:34 we did that 01:38:41 ehird: Sure. I'm just saying it's as easy to read as a UNIX pipeline. :) 01:38:55 pikhq: But unix pipelines aren't especially easy to read :P 01:39:01 are too 01:39:04 ... Sure they are. 01:39:10 In the trivial cases, at least. 01:39:18 trivial perl's easy to read too. 01:40:10 Touché. 01:40:23 hmm 01:40:35 @hoogle (m a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 01:40:36 Data.Generics.Aliases ext1T :: (Data d, Typeable1 t) => (d -> d) -> (t d -> t d) -> d -> d 01:40:38 ....... 01:40:42 @hoogle Functor m => (m a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 01:40:42 Data.Generics.Aliases ext1T :: (Data d, Typeable1 t) => (d -> d) -> (t d -> t d) -> d -> d 01:40:46 what language manages to make even trivial things unreadable? 01:40:46 @hoogle Applicative m => (m a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 01:40:47 ehird: !cxx 01:40:47 Data.Generics.Aliases ext1T :: (Data d, Typeable1 t) => (d -> d) -> (t d -> t d) -> d -> d 01:40:50 oh wiat 01:40:51 wait 01:40:52 a -> 01:40:55 @hoogle Applicative m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 01:40:56 Prelude (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 01:40:56 Control.Monad (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 01:40:56 Prelude (>>=) :: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b 01:41:02 @hoogle Functor m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 01:41:03 Prelude (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 01:41:03 Control.Monad (=<<) :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> m a -> m b 01:41:03 Prelude (>>=) :: Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b 01:41:06 hmm so =<< it is then 01:41:11 01:40 olsner: what language manages to make even trivial things unreadable? 01:41:14 look at the channel you're in 01:41:18 i say one thing 01:41:19 ,[.,] 01:41:46 And raise you a moo. 01:41:55 haha, kind of like asking for your glasses when you already have them on 01:42:03 !cxx std::vector foo("Hello", "world!"); 01:42:09 Let's assume that worked. 01:42:10 Does not compile. 01:42:14 Or… not. 01:42:21 !cxx std::vector foo = {"Hello", "world!"}; 01:42:22 Does not compile. 01:42:35 GregorR: better error reporting would be appreciated 01:43:59 !cxx std::string elems[] = {"Hello", "world!"}; std::vector strings(elems, elems + sizeof elems); 01:44:01 Does not compile. 01:44:02 i cannot believe you have to do that. 01:44:04 wat 01:44:07 I wonder if it includes obvious headers. 01:44:40 !cxx std::string foo = "Hello, world!"; 01:44:50 ehird: E_DONT_GIVE_A_FUCK 01:45:01 !cxx std::cout << "Hello, world!"; 01:45:03 Hello, world! 01:45:06 GregorR: Gee, remind me to never report an issue to you ever again. 01:45:20 !cxx std::string fuck = "Hello, world!"; std::cout << fuck 01:45:22 I think we can conclude that C++ sucks. 01:45:22 Hello, world! 01:45:29 you were saying? 01:45:35 hey, it's C++, you wouldn't understand the error message anyway 01:45:39 !cxx std::vector fuck; 01:45:41 Does not compile. 01:45:47 olsner: weren't you that one trying to replace C++? 01:45:57 ehird: no, not really 01:46:01 !cxx #include ; int main() { std::vector fuck; } 01:46:04 Does not compile. 01:46:23 ehird: You'd need to include a literal newline there. 01:46:30 The C preprocessor sucks. 01:46:33 you can do it with !c can't you 01:46:34 somehow 01:46:41 !cxx int main() { std::vector fuck; }; #include 01:46:42 Does not compile. 01:46:50 FUCK YOU EgoBot AND YOUR TWELVE WIVES. 01:46:51 :| 01:47:22 incidentally, let's golf lambdacat: 01:47:29 main = putStr =<< getContents 01:47:34 main = interact id 01:47:41 oops, i finished :) 01:48:06 main=interact$id 01:48:06 Heh, it includes iostream but not string :P 01:48:14 pikhq: That $ is the same length as a space. 01:48:20 a space is semantically simpler 01:48:23 ehird: Yes. 01:48:24 GregorR: std::string works, so. 01:48:24 ehird: The problem is that there are two attempts at compiling it, and it's impossible to know which error is useful. 01:48:26 it's we need. 01:48:31 GregorR: wut? howso? 01:48:35 $ is more dollary. 01:48:39 pikhq: And syntactic golfing is zzzzzzzz 01:51:26 !help 01:51:26 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 01:51:34 !help userinterps 01:51:34 userinterps: Users can add interpreters written in any of the languages in !help languages. See !help addinterp, delinterp, show | !userinterps. List interpreters added with !addinterp. 01:51:45 Hey, I have a challenge. Your script/binary will be called "test". Golf the printing of "test: <>" 01:51:46 m@main=m 01:51:48 YOUR MOVE 01:51:55 !userinterps 01:51:55 Installed user interpreters: aol austro b1ff bc bct bfbignum brit brooklyn chef chiqrsx9p choo cockney ctcp dc drawl dubya echo ehird fudd google graph gregor hello jethro kraut num ook pansy pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler redneck reverse rot13 sadbf sfedeesh sffedeesh sffffedeesh sffffffffedeesh slashes svedeesh swedish valspeak warez yodawg 01:52:12 !help languages 01:52:13 languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh. 01:52:26 !help addinterp 01:52:27 addinterp: !addinterp . Add a new interpreter to EgoBot. This interpreter will be run once every time you type ! , and receive the program code as input. 01:52:29 test: <> 01:52:32 ehird: I compile it once in main() and once as a whole file; if both produce an error, probably only one of those errors is useful, but it's impossible to guess which. 01:52:33 Written in cat. 01:52:58 GregorR: xD 01:53:05 !addinterp id lazyk I 01:53:06 Interpreter id installed. 01:53:11 !id foo 01:53:11 pikhq: That's longer than mine. (That's what she said, but.) 01:53:11 Couldn't fork sub-program. 01:53:21 Mrrp. 01:53:31 !haskell m@main=m 01:53:36 !delinterp id 01:53:38 Interpreter id deleted. 01:53:53 !show swedish 01:53:54 sh chef | fmt -w500 01:54:03 !addinterp id sh cat 01:54:03 Interpreter id installed. 01:54:07 !id foo 01:54:46 !sh echo "m@main=m">>tmp.hs;ghc --make tmp.hs;./tmp 01:54:46 /tmp/input.19965: line 1: tmp.hs: Permission denied 01:55:03 DAMN YOU NOT HACKEGO!!! 01:55:16 I'm finding it surprisingly difficult to make a cat interpreter. 01:55:20 !sh echo "m@main=m">>tmp.hs;ghc --make tmp.hs;chmod +x tmp;./tmp 01:55:20 /tmp/input.20007: line 1: tmp.hs: Permission denied 01:55:26 ........................................... 01:55:28 GregorR: wat 01:55:34 GregorR: are file extensions ignored? 01:55:50 ehird: Fail. 01:55:57 what 01:56:01 ohhh 01:56:03 The failure is writing tmp.hs in the first place. 01:56:07 xD 01:56:15 !id foo 01:56:16 foo 01:56:20 Oh. 01:56:34 !echo hello there! 01:56:35 hello there! 01:56:40 !addinterp bypass_ignore sh cat 01:56:40 Interpreter bypass_ignore installed. 01:56:56 Hey, it's one of the possible names for that interpreter I didn't think of. 01:57:06 Eh? What kind of ignorey? 01:57:10 Is EgoBot ignoring the Warrigal? 01:58:10 !ehird What do you do, my eponymous friend? 01:58:11 Wut do you do, my eponymous friend? 01:58:14 ehird: You can't write files. 01:58:15 No, but presumably it allows you to bypass someone else's ignore. ;) 01:58:24 EgoBot doesn't like dogs, being written by a cat person 01:58:28 That's what HackEgo's for. 01:58:32 !show ehird 01:58:32 sh funetak 01:58:52 I was expecting it to do something along the lines of: 01:58:52 !funetak I think nooga named it that because he's an idiot. 01:58:54 what do you do 01:58:59 my eponymous friend 01:58:59 !ehird I think nooga named it that because he's an idiot. 01:59:00 Em tunk nooga named it that because he's an idiot. 01:59:07 !addinterp funetak sh funetak 01:59:07 Interpreter funetak installed. 01:59:08 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving"). 01:59:09 !delinterp ehird 01:59:20 Warrigal: That's just fmt -w thingy. 01:59:27 -!- GregorR has joined. 02:05:10 -!- zzo38 has joined. 02:05:31 Is there a such thing as log base two of aleph zero? 02:06:05 not as a cardinality, anyway 02:06:24 i almost understood that 02:06:27 I didn't think there could be, but I wanted to ask anyways. 02:06:35 almost 02:06:59 maybe as a surreal number, but i don't know if 2^ means the same thing there as with cardinalities 02:07:28 holy shit, Poromenos' comment karma is 59,928 02:07:53 his name is apropos. 02:08:00 I think you can have two (or any positive number) to the power of aleph zero to make aleph one 02:08:03 http://freefall.purrsia.com/ :D 02:08:38 zzo38: you mean beth one, unless you assume the continuum hypothesis 02:08:51 O, I mean beth one. I didn 02:09:27 O, I mean beth one. I didn't actually know that "beth" to mean this was standard at all. I invented this notation too independently a long time ago and haven't heard about it since. 02:09:29 > map (unwords . words) $ (\s -> case dropWhile (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s of "" -> []; s' -> w : food s'' where (w, s'') = break (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s') $ map toLower $ "What do you do, my eponymous friend?" 02:09:31 Not in scope: `food' 02:09:45 Warrigal: that is ridiculously verbose. 02:09:51 it hurts to look at. 02:10:08 zzo38: beth_(n+1) = 2^(beth_n) 02:10:19 oerjan: any base cases? 02:10:24 aleph_(n+1) = minimum cardinality > aleph_n 02:10:27 > let food s = case dropWhile (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s of "" -> []; s' -> w : food s'' where (w, s'') = break (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s' in map (unwords . words) $ food $ map toLower $ "What do you do, my eponymous friend?" 02:10:29 ["what do you do","my eponymous friend"] 02:10:45 yes, beth_0 = aleph_0 = cardinality of natural numbers 02:11:03 oerjan: oh, how boring, i thought it was a cute factorial-like thing 02:11:17 and for larger non-successors, aleph and beth are continuous (preserving limits) 02:11:21 I'd say that the log base two of aleph_zero is well-defined but nonexistent. 02:11:24 oerjan: Yes that was actually my own notation too a long time ago, but I never used it because I didn't know that other people had invented it too (although I had suspected it before, but never actually known it). Yes I would know that's what "beth" is. 02:11:37 OK 02:11:39 > let expotorial 0 = 1; expotorial n = n ^ expotorial (n-1) in map expotorial [1..3] 02:11:40 [1,2,9] 02:11:42 > let expotorial 0 = 1; expotorial n = n ^ expotorial (n-1) in map expotorial [1..5] 02:11:43 [1,2,9,262144,6206069878660874470748320557284679309194219265199117173177383... 02:11:48 that's some nice blowup 02:12:15 > let food s = case dropWhile (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s of "" -> []; s' -> w : food s'' where (w, s'') = break (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s' in unlines $ map ((" " ++) . unwords . words) $ food $ map toLower $ "What do you do, my eponymous friend?" 02:12:17 " what do you do\n my eponymous friend\n" 02:12:35 > let fact 0 = 1; fact n = n * fact (n-1); fact2 0 = 1; fact2 n = factorial n * fact2 (n-1) in map fact2 [1..5] 02:12:36 Not in scope: `factorial' 02:12:40 > let fact 0 = 1; fact n = n * fact (n-1); fact2 0 = 1; fact2 n = fact n * fact2 (n-1) in map fact2 [1..5] 02:12:41 [1,2,12,288,34560] 02:12:41 Great, now make that into an interpreter. 02:12:44 > let fact 0 = 1; fact n = n * fact (n-1); fact2 0 = 1; fact2 n = fact n * fact2 (n-1) in map fact2 [1..10] 02:12:45 [1,2,12,288,34560,24883200,125411328000,5056584744960000,183493347225108480... 02:12:51 # Appears as Jordan 02:12:52 hmm i prefer expotorial 02:12:54 # Just kidding 02:12:59 zzo38: what 02:13:04 !haskell 3 02:13:05 3 02:13:13 !haskell main = print 3 02:13:16 3 02:13:19 Wow. 02:13:46 That's a Microsoft Chat code (usually uses DATA command). I see it whenever I connect to a channel that people using Microsoft Comic Chat. I don't use it myself, though 02:14:08 !addinterp eehird haskell main = interact (let food s = case dropWhile (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s of "" -> []; s' -> w : food s'' where (w, s'') = break (\x -> not (isAlpha x || isSpace x)) s' in unlines $ map ((" " ++) . unwords . words) $ food $ map toLower) 02:14:08 Interpreter eehird installed. 02:14:09 ehird: looks like the beginning of something ackermann-like 02:14:22 zzo38: nobody's connected with microsoft comic chat... 02:14:29 Warrigal: eehird? 02:14:29 !eehird Well, if someone said to you, "What is that?", what would you say? 02:14:31 I deleted regular ehird 02:14:33 I know that. That's why I am just kidding 02:14:40 zzo38: i see 02:14:43 EgoBot still doesn't like me. 02:14:48 actually, aleph_(n+1) = minimum _well-orderable_ cardinality > aleph_n, if you don't even assume the axiom of choice 02:14:53 !eehird Well, if someone said to you, "What is that?", what would you say? 02:15:20 oerjan: what we really need is f_0(x,y) = x+y, f_1(x,y) = x*y, f_2(x,y) = x^y, f_3(x,y) = not sure what it's called 02:15:25 i'd code it but i'm a bit lazy 02:15:35 then we could do fun fun things 02:15:38 s/ / / 02:15:46 !eehird Well, if someone said to you, "What is that?", what would you say? 02:15:53 02:15 CTCP-query unknown(DCC CHAT) from EgoBot : chat 1077849409 10052 02:16:34 ! 02:16:40 ! 02:16:50 !haskell isSpace ' ' 02:16:56 ehird: i think that may be considered a variant of the ackermann function already 02:17:03 oerjan: sudan, no? 02:17:17 huh? haven't heard that name 02:17:21 for shame 02:17:22 * Zuu eats zzo38 02:17:27 oerjan: it's the first non-primitive recursion thingy 02:18:05 > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in map (op 1) [1..] 02:18:06 Overlapping instances for GHC.Show.Show (a -> a) 02:18:07 arising from a use of `... 02:18:12 oops 02:18:18 > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in zipWith (op 1) [1..] [2..] 02:18:19 [2,6,12,20,30,42,56,72,90,110,132,156,182,210,240,272,306,342,380,420,462,5... 02:18:27 yay 02:18:30 > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in zipWith (op 2) [1..] [2..] 02:18:31 [0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,... 02:18:35 not yay 02:18:39 oh 02:18:40 ofc 02:18:45 ehird: hm no the sudan function doesn't equal that... 02:18:48 > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x 1 = x; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in zipWith (op 2) [1..] [2..] 02:18:52 oerjan: closer, though 02:18:52 [1,8,81,1024,15625,279936,* Exception: stack overflow 02:19:03 > let op 0 x y = x + y; op n x 0 = 0; op n x 1 = x; op n x y = op (n-1) x (op n x (y-1)) in zipWith (op 3) [1..] [2..] 02:19:07 [1,16,* Exception: stack overflow 02:19:12 yikes 02:19:13 that's some hefty function 02:19:24 * ehird puts mathematica on the job 02:19:38 I have read Godel,Escher,Bach book. And I also played a text-adventure game Goose,Egg,Badger 02:21:11 oerjan: yikes 02:21:18 we can't even calculate the first ten op[3,n,2]s 02:22:01 oerjan: not even the first five 02:22:10 If you have Mathematica, can you answer the Three Fundamental Questions of Mathematica Player, now? 02:22:19 oerjan: op[3, n, 2] starts {1, 4, 27, 256}, anyway 02:22:25 zzo38: which are? 02:22:58 oerjan: huh {1, 4, 27, 256} is the start of the sequence (sum of digits of n)^n 02:22:59 :D 02:23:12 also Write n in decimal, omit 0's, raise each digit k to k-th power and multiply. 02:23:16 also n^(initial digit of n). 02:23:18 well 02:23:20 after an initial 1 02:23:29 How large a number can be entered in Mathematica and Mathematica Player, whether numbers can be pasted into Mathematica Player, and whether Mathematica Player can convert strings to expressions. 02:23:41 ehird: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper_operator 02:24:05 zzo38: Mathematica supports bignums and arbitrary-precision reals and the like, what's that supposed to mean, what's that supposed to mean. 02:24:09 Mathematica Player doesn't let you code anything. 02:24:12 Just run existing notebooks. 02:24:16 zzo38: just pirate Mathematica 02:24:22 it's what I di 02:24:23 d 02:24:33 zzo38: Just install Maxima. 02:24:34 oerjan: hmm that's sad :( 02:24:40 zzo38: don't do what pikhq says 02:24:41 ehird: I would rather not if I can avoid it. 02:24:41 maxima is hell 02:24:45 and can't do half the things mathematica does 02:24:48 zzo38: then pony up the $1,000+ 02:24:57 and support the immoral selling of unscarce goods 02:24:59 your choice 02:25:01 Maxima is legal. 02:25:03 And Lisptastic. 02:25:14 pikhq: Maxima is legal, and oh my god this system is awfultastic. 02:25:21 And has not the gigantic library of Mathematica. 02:25:31 Fine, then. 02:25:35 Install GHC. 02:25:37 :P 02:25:43 I don't think you've used Mathematica :P 02:25:52 ehird: really, that is too obvious to be new. i am pretty sure i also reinvented it at one point. 02:25:59 I know Mathematica has ToExpression. You can't load data from files or input strings in Mathematica Player, but it doesn't say anything about ToExpression not working. 02:25:59 I'm well-aware that GHC is not a CAS. 02:26:22 zzo38: it presumably supports everything apart from coding yourself. Okay, I have a third option now; it's free or cheap. 02:26:24 If anyone has the player can you test it? 02:26:33 zzo38: Get into a good university that has a copy of Mathematica. 02:26:39 Or, get into any university and get a student discount. 02:27:26 oerjan: OK so what i was talking about is tetration 02:27:32 ie a^a^a^a^a... 02:27:46 Which is much easier to compute. 02:27:50 the next one appears to be 65.536 02:27:52 *65,536 02:28:02 no wait 02:28:03 no wait 02:28:07 1, 4, 27, 256, 3,125 02:28:18 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f5/Tetration_escape.gif 02:28:21 smells like mandelbrot 02:29:49 > join (^) <$> [1..] 02:29:50 [1,4,27,256,3125,46656,823543,16777216,387420489,10000000000,285311670611,8... 02:30:17 oerjan: ha, so op n = join (op (n-1))? 02:30:38 no 02:30:52 > join f x :: Expr 02:30:54 f x x 02:30:56 yes i know 02:31:04 oerjan: so it only applies to tetration? 02:31:11 remember that op (n-1) = (^) in this cae 02:31:12 case 02:31:15 hmm 02:31:16 oh 02:31:19 its because of the extra argument 02:31:19 > join (+) <$> [1..] 02:31:21 [2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48,50,52,... 02:31:22 it only covers one type of tetration 02:31:27 Cute Rock, Paper, Scissors variant: there are six choices, A, B, C, D, E, and F; and A < B, A > C, A > D, A > E, A > F, B < C, B > D, B < E, B < F, C > D, C > E, C > F, D > E, D > F, and E > F. 02:31:27 Is http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/Suxesol turing-complete? 02:31:29 pikhq: incidentally, here's the perl version of that haskell code 02:31:31 say foreach @ARGV 02:31:40 probably the shortest, most direct so far 02:31:56 zzo38: Uhh, ask an oracle. 02:32:06 ehird: Sure, but that's Perl. 02:32:12 I'm asking for your opinion, though. 02:32:27 Do you think it is turing-comlpete? Do you think it works? 02:32:40 zzo38: I don't know. It looks TC. 02:32:49 pikhq: Hey, not all of Perl is bad. 02:32:53 Turing completeness is not a matter of opinion. :P 02:33:16 Yes, but probable Turing completeness is. 02:33:17 ehird: Sure; pretend it's shell scripting with more features and you'll do alright. 02:33:25 pikhq: Or use Moose. 02:33:29 pikhq: It's a matter of flavor. 02:33:32 Hmm, tastes TC. 02:33:38 I mean, "x foo y" being "foo (y) { x }" for a control structure is clever 02:33:50 And the $_ stuff, while sometimes icky, does make for very direct code. 02:33:58 GregorR: Anosmic says what? 02:33:58 I know turing complete is not a matter of opinion. I want your opinion on whether you think it is turing complete, not on whether or not it really is turing complete (unless you can prove it, in which case do prove it). 02:34:02 ehird: Moose? 02:34:05 foreach my $x (@ARGV) { say $x; } looks stupid. 02:34:08 pikhq: D-8 NOT FAIR 02:34:33 pikhq: Perl 6's object system for Perl 5; plus a shitload of CPAN modules. Postmodern. Meta-object protocol included. http://search.cpan.org/~drolsky/Moose-0.87/lib/Moose.pm 02:34:38 zzo38: can you write predecessor in it? 02:34:42 Empathetically a best practice. 02:34:45 pikhq: For the first time I realized that red wine and coffee taste exactly the same to me. I'd never had both in close proximity before, so I was like "wtf ... this is just like that coffee ... but cold" 02:34:57 pikhq: Also, plays well with code using Perl 5's object system directly; it's an extension. 02:35:02 GregorR: ... Wine and *coffee* taste exactly the same to you? 02:35:06 Yes, coffee. 02:35:07 GregorR: ...what? 02:35:09 No wonder you don't like either. 02:35:17 Wine is disgusting, but coffee is lovely. 02:35:21 How on earth can that work? :P 02:35:37 ehird: I'm hyposmic, it severely reduces my ability to taste most beverages. Both taste like bitter, very-slightly-sour water to me. 02:35:47 Warrigal: Let's see if I can, I thought of it before but now I forgot, so I will try again. 02:35:52 Cool, hyposmia. 02:35:54 ehird: Wine is rather tasty. 02:36:00 pikhq: No. 02:36:14 ehird: You must have had shit wine. 02:36:29 Or just don't like the taste. That works, too... 02:36:31 If you can swap two numbers on the stack and you have predecessor, I'm pretty sure it's TC. 02:36:37 * oerjan likes both red wine and coffee, fwiw 02:36:52 Wine and beer: It may fuck up both your mind and your liver, but you get to taste a foul taste! 02:37:03 ehird: What, mixed? 02:37:11 …no, not really… 02:37:49 ehird: ... If you abuse it... 02:38:14 Just don't be an idiot. 02:38:17 pikhq: Are you telling me you have the ability to drink alcoholic drinks and come out of it 100% unintoxicated? 02:38:23 0!1!0@1@ can swap two numbers on the stack 02:38:59 ehird: Like, yes? 02:39:10 Oh, wait. "100% unintoxicated". 02:39:12 pikhq is an android. 02:39:27 You probably count any alcohol in the blood as intoxication. 02:39:32 So implement a tape using two integers. Double them, halve them, and test them for oddness. 02:39:35 Uhh… no. 02:39:38 zzo38: hm, can a subroutine call a later subroutine? 02:39:51 oh wait, you have infinity 02:40:39 I guess you could make it call a later subroutine (although BlooP can't, but Suxesol doesn't say it can't, so I guess it can). 02:41:01 store and fetch manipulate deep stack, do they? 02:41:08 zzo38: BlooP isn't TC, btw. 02:41:24 Store and fetch manipulate the variable storage. Probably I should mention that. 02:41:31 ehird: But FlooP is. 02:41:42 And FlooP is the same as BlooP except it has infinite loops. 02:42:06 ic 02:42:31 zzo38: with a variable storage i expect you can do a minsky machine rather easily 02:43:25 or a bounded tape length bf, may be even easier 02:45:01 the possibility of giving max loop times in advance should be useable for decrementing, i think 02:45:30 The next question is whether arbitrary Turing machines can be compiled into it and run in polynomial time with their original running times. 02:45:42 running times are irrelevant for TCness 02:45:44 oerjan: Yes that's what I was thinking too. I thought I had figured it out but I forgot. 02:47:22 You can toggle a single-bit value in a specified cell by 0!1 0@! 0@[0 0@!] (I think) 02:47:36 Warrigal: that seems unlikely if you cannot get to deep stack and have ... wait 02:47:52 zzo38: do you have infinite number of variable cells? 02:47:52 If there isn't a term, I coin the terms "repaliant" and "polynomially Turing complete". 02:48:18 Two stacks is as efficient as one tape. 02:48:34 Yes there is a infinite number of variable cells (since numbers are unbounded, if the cell's address is a number then it would be assumed the infinite number of variable cells) 02:48:52 BF-style doubling and halving are not as efficient as constant-time pushing and popping. 02:49:02 Warrigal: but an integer that can only be incremented cannot implement either a stack or a tape polynomially 02:49:26 zzo38: in that case i think an unbounded brainfuck tape length is also possible 02:49:37 Then find a way to decrement it. 02:49:51 Warrigal: er, decrementing doesn't help either 02:50:06 Oh, you said polynomially. 02:50:17 In which case I have no objection to anything you said. 02:50:23 :) 02:51:13 I think I have figured out the function for decrementing the number: 0 0!0[0@[+]1 0!] If I have mistake please notify. 02:51:13 zzo38: and that should also make it possible to do it polynomially as Warrigal suggested 02:51:31 oh wait hm 02:51:34 O no, I just realized I wrote it wrong. 02:51:36 Except that I don't grok it. 02:51:43 or ... yes i think you can 02:51:46 I will fix it and re-post it. 02:52:31 zzo38: i think a bounded cell but unbounded tape length brainfuck implementation with polynomial efficiency may be possible 02:53:07 hm wait even unbounded might be, the decrementing is bad but not superpolynomial... 02:53:31 I think I wrote it right now. 02:53:39 0 0!0 1![1@0@[+]1 0!]1@ 02:53:47 Now is it right? 02:56:52 x y ! stores number x in variable y? 02:57:25 oerjan: Yes 02:57:56 i don't see the point of cell 1 there, it is always made 0 02:58:32 Sorry I think I wrote it wrong again. 02:59:03 0 0!0 1![1@0@[+]1!1 0!]1@ 03:00:11 [+] essentially sums the two numbers on top of stack, doesn't it 03:00:28 Yes 03:01:25 ah right 03:02:49 i think that's correct 03:03:45 OK 03:23:09 In Mathematica Player, it says all interactive content must be generated with the Manipulate command, it says InputField[x,Number] works normally. Does it mean InputField has to be inside of a Manipulate? 03:23:56 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 03:27:11 Is this Mathematica code valid: ToExpression[FromCharacterCode[RealDigits[InputField[0,Number],128]]] 03:32:53 Maybe this code is better: Manipulate[ToExpression[FromCharacterCode[RealDigits[codes,128]]],{codes}] 03:33:12 I really don't know, because I don't know Mathematica very well I just try to read the documentation and try to figure it out. 03:34:25 -!- zzo38 has quit ("(Who cares?)"). 03:49:46 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:52:19 -!- zzo38 has joined. 03:52:58 However, the demonstration guidelines says that InputField is not supported by Mathematica Player but the other page says it does but only numbers. Someone should fix the inconsistency 03:53:14 -!- zzo38 has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:02:05 -!- coppro has joined. 04:10:10 -!- augur has joined. 04:20:26 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:20:43 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:32:14 -!- augur has joined. 04:35:12 -!- coppro has joined. 04:39:11 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:48:38 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:05:28 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 05:11:44 yay xkcd :D 05:13:11 lol 05:28:37 I should get a coherent tab system. 05:29:26 There was a poll along those lines. "What data structure are your tabs: a queue, a stack, or a map?" 05:29:36 wtf is tvtropes 05:29:38 I was sad, for my tabs were a map. 05:29:53 * Warrigal loses a mandible floorward. 05:30:34 bsmntbombdood_: RUN, RUN AWAY 05:31:02 Anyway, I've put some minimal thought to it, and decided that I should use my tabs as a queue. 05:31:05 Er, a stack. 05:31:40 Because while a queue guarantees that every page will be visited, this doesn't compare to the topology preservation a stack provides. 05:32:29 -!- Pthing has joined. 05:32:42 Warrigal: that's my philosophy too 05:32:51 bsmntbombdood_: back when i discovered tvtropes, i was on IE6 with no tabs, so it got to be a stack by necessity. let's just say i rarely ever got back to the top. 05:33:05 er, bottom 05:33:21 oerjan: what is it anyway 05:33:39 a bottomless internet pit 05:33:43 also, a wiki 05:34:34 about tropes 05:34:57 (it expanded way beyond tv long before i got to it) 05:36:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trope_(literature) (warning, contains link to tvtropes ;D) 05:46:33 i don't get it 05:46:37 what is so addicting 05:48:52 you're immune? good, then there is someone to rebuild civilization after we get sucked in... 05:49:27 (actually, i'm much less addicted now than i was in the beginning. knock on wood.) 05:50:16 oerjan: It's hard to remain addicted. 05:50:21 Eventually you read the whole thing. 05:50:31 that may be... 05:50:44 bsmntbombdood_: It's a wiki. A massive wiki. 05:50:50 With interesting things. 05:51:37 so's wikipedia 05:55:26 Yes. 05:56:00 You'll note that the same issue happens with that. 05:58:45 i think xkcd had a comic on that too 05:59:01 Yes. 05:59:12 http://xkcd.com/214/ 06:25:20 -!- augur_ has joined. 06:25:20 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:31:27 -!- sebbu has joined. 06:47:45 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:53:54 `wolfram melting point of apples 06:54:05 melting point of apples \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ apples \ Result: \ \ melting point \ \ 29.3 °C degrees Celsius \ Unit conversions: \ \ 302.5 K kelvins \ Thermal properties: \ \ melting point optimal storage temperature specific heat \ \ 29.3 °C 1.5 °C 3.64 J g °C \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) 06:54:52 Make it use forward slashes and collapse them when you have multiple in a row. 06:55:15 melting point of apples // Input interpretation: // apples / Result: // melting point // . . . 06:55:56 * Warrigal licks a stamp and sticks it to GregorR's transparent, glossy exterior. 06:56:42 * oerjan read that as posterior. or something close. 06:56:54 -!- darthnuri has quit (Connection timed out). 06:57:39 -!- oerjan has quit ("Apples, melting on your tongue!"). 06:59:42 -!- jix has joined. 07:00:46 * Warrigal sticks a stamp to oerjan's caput anterius. 07:02:11 -!- sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:38:10 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:44:02 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:19:58 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:05:11 hahah at xkcd today 09:05:13 so true 09:10:01 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 09:21:21 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:25:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:49:17 -!- MizardX has joined. 09:52:55 -!- Pthing has joined. 10:02:50 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 10:17:56 hi ais523 10:18:00 hi 10:18:06 xkcd is great today! 10:24:16 no it isn't 10:25:16 Pthing, uh? 10:25:22 why do you think so 10:25:31 the tvtropes realisation isn't novel 10:25:48 the duplication of the panels with changes rung on interested noises 10:25:51 Pthing, um... I have never had that problem before tvtropes 10:25:59 so I completely agree with xkcd today 10:26:07 man people have been talking about it ever since the web was invented 10:26:19 that was the whole point behind """surfing the web""" 10:26:42 Pthing, I tend to not get lost in links while using the web 10:26:47 and people have been ascribing *that* to tvtropes ever since it opened 10:26:47 exception: tvtropes 10:27:01 so I disagree with you 10:27:05 also the rickrolling mention in the past panel 10:27:14 the duplication of panel is for the effect. 10:27:17 seems to be there solely as the xkcd version of a laugh track 10:27:38 Pthing, how do you mean? 10:27:47 it doesn't really work? 10:27:52 how is it like rickrolling 10:28:17 the idea of rickrolling was tricking somebody into something unexpected, the basis behind a million practical jokes 10:28:42 Pthing, yes, but first time you get linked to tvtropes, the effect is unexpected 10:28:51 it's like wikipedia but worse 10:29:02 if you manage to ignore everyone who ever talks about it mentioning that fact 10:29:22 Pthing, first time I ran into it was before everyone talked about it 10:29:34 then you weren't tricked 10:29:38 the analogy would be 10:29:40 somebody being like 10:29:51 HEY LOOK AT THIS WEBSITE IT WON'T TAKE YOU LONG TO READ IT ;) 10:29:52 then 10:29:54 you realise 10:30:13 OH GOODNESS I HAVE ONLY READ A TINY PORTION OF IT AND IT HAS BEEN THREE HOURS, WHAT A TREMENDOUS UNEXPECTED TRICK!!! 10:30:20 :-D 10:30:30 Pthing, quite plausible for tvtropes 10:30:39 not... really 10:30:45 Pthing, I pulled that trick on someone else actually. 10:30:53 back around then 10:30:57 congratulations, you are as terrible as randall munroe 10:31:06 Pthing, thanks :) 10:31:35 Pthing, it wasn't a very nice person, someone even worse than ehird 10:31:39 ;P 10:32:39 * AnMaster wonders why ripping this cd is so slow 10:32:54 it is spinning at like 3x... 10:33:01 the drive is 48x btw 11:06:13 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:27:49 -!- ais523 has quit. 11:27:58 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:29:21 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:32:48 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:34:49 -!- Pthing has joined. 11:35:18 -!- ehird has left (?). 11:37:17 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:39:52 -!- ehird has joined. 11:43:20 02:18:06 xkcd is great today! 11:43:25 you like the worst xkcd in ages 11:43:34 ... 11:43:35 and find great delight enough to share this! with exclamation marks! and "hahah" 11:43:40 even the most obnoxious "hahah" 11:43:50 and you claim authority on comic rankings. 11:43:50 psh 11:43:55 -!- ais523_ has joined. 11:44:01 ehird, I don't. But you shouldn't claim that either. 11:44:24 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:47:28 even the most ? "hahah" <-- how do you mean obnoxious 11:47:31 err 11:47:35 copy-paste fail 11:47:42 even the most obnoxious "hahah" <-- how do you mean obnoxious? 11:47:44 is what I meant 11:47:48 so selection fail 11:47:50 11:43 ehird: even the most obnoxious "hahah" 11:47:53 s/hahah/so true/ 11:48:01 ehird, um? 11:48:03 how do you mean 11:48:24 "so true" in response to a piece of alleged humour is among the most retardedly obnoxious phrases the human race can procure 11:48:38 ehird, yes, but you said "hahah" not "so true" 11:48:48 11:47 ehird: 11:43 ehird: even the most obnoxious "hahah" 11:48:49 11:47 ehird: s/hahah/so true/ 11:48:50 odd mistake to make 11:49:02 no, I said hahah the line before 11:49:16 ... 11:49:26 as well 11:50:34 AnMaster: your rip is slow because you're using cdparanoia and it reads everything N times. 11:51:34 ehird, ah right 11:51:45 s/and it/which/ 11:52:11 ehird, it did find some issues though... man page says a + on the progress bar means "Unreported loss of streaming/other error in read" 11:52:15 whatever that means 11:52:18 http://www.plextoramericas.com/index.php/dvd-rw ;; damn, the plextor site is 1990s 11:52:22 and I had three of them 11:53:11 A plus indicates not only frame jitter, but an unreported, uncorrected loss of streaming in the middle of an atomic read operation. That is, the drive lost its place while reading data, and restarted in some random incorrect location without alerting the kernel. This case is also corrected by Paranoia. 11:53:29 http://www.xiph.org/paranoia/faq.html#progbar 11:54:31 AnMaster: if you have any e's, X's, *'s or V's, the rip is not perfect 11:54:44 if you have a !, it's been corrected, but your drive or disc are probably FUBAR. 11:54:47 simple 11:54:59 (and thus other instances will go undetected) 11:55:31 ah 11:56:09 what is "frame jitter" 11:56:15 I mean, what does it actually mean 11:56:26 that two blocks overlapped properly, but they were skewed (frame jitter). 11:56:31 AnMaster: Physically, it means that your CD jittered. 11:56:35 Or rather, the laser. 11:56:37 Or whatever. 11:56:38 ah 11:57:10 11:54 ehird: AnMaster: if you have any e's, X's, *'s or V's, the rip is not perfect 11:57:13 I retract this for X's 11:57:23 if you have a good drive and it can detect X's all the time, it'll be the best you'll get 11:57:40 tbh ripping properly is such a pain that piracy is easier :) 11:57:41 I only had + 11:57:45 none of the other ones 11:58:09 then the rip is fine 11:58:41 ehird, I love the smiley thingy 12:00:30 Relatedly: 8-| is the same situation as !, ;-( is the same as eX*V. 12:00:50 no ;-( is same as V only it seems 12:00:57 11:54 ehird: AnMaster: if you have any e's, X's, *'s or V's, the rip is not perfect 12:01:00 I meant it's in the same family 12:02:21 * AnMaster listens to http://musicbrainz.org/release/c4479a37-6830-4f3d-8091-b29e173050a5.html 12:02:47 using the musicbrainz website as a URI for music? 12:02:49 track 4 to be specifc, very nice. 12:02:50 that's a new one 12:02:56 ehird, it seems accurate enough 12:02:59 you mean http://musicbrainz.org/track/d57d37d0-4318-42d6-9967-60aed46315bc.html 12:03:05 ehird, correct. 12:03:08 I think 12:03:17 yes 12:03:31 ehird, it isn't very good for actually talking about the tracks and such hm 12:03:35 too much clicking 12:03:45 good for general info about the cd or such though 12:04:08 AnMaster: everything's one click away 12:04:28 ehird, two clicks: right click link, select "open in browser" 12:04:43 AnMaster: the cd requires that too 12:04:50 also, what kind of client doesn't open links in browsers when you click them? 12:04:51 ehird, true 12:05:00 ehird, ctrl + click works too 12:05:04 "Hurr, clicking should... um... make the link turn pink." 12:05:06 ehird, any sane 12:05:09 what 12:05:12 ehird, it should? 12:05:12 how is that sane 12:05:20 ehird, not pink isn't sane! 12:05:25 how is click-to-open-URL-in-browser ever not sane 12:05:39 ehird, I often click in the window just to focus it 12:05:44 sometimes that happens to be a link 12:05:54 AnMaster: os x separates focus clicks and inside clicks 12:05:59 and often I want to select the link instead 12:06:02 normally you'd have the same issue with a browser too; that's an X11 problem 12:06:05 ehird: all OSes do that, even Windows 12:06:07 so do you do the same for the browser? 12:06:14 ehird, no? 12:06:17 ais523_: apparently AnMaster begs to differ. 12:06:26 ehird, it doesn't work that way in the browser for some reaso 12:06:28 reason* 12:06:29 probably the client's set up to open links even on focus clicks 12:06:38 which probably is a bad idea 12:06:43 So basically, you're saying, "insane clients that do X are insane". 12:06:48 Which is a very silly thing to do. 12:06:52 but the fix is "open only on non-focusing clicks" rather than "don't open links on clicks at all" 12:06:59 ehird, I don't know... 12:07:25 I often want to copy the link instead 12:07:27 to wget it 12:07:32 or similar 12:07:34 Right click, copy link. 12:07:40 ehird, huh? 12:07:54 ehird, often end of link detection is imperfect too 12:08:03 consider a link followed by a . 12:08:06 Select the misdetected end, drag to other end of link. 12:08:09 sometimes that is actually part of the url 12:08:45 Here's a screenshot of the Copy URL item: 12:08:54 argh 12:08:56 it didn't enter the screenshot 12:08:58 oh well 12:08:59 * AnMaster now listens to http://musicbrainz.org/track/9a6e1605-55e3-4e3c-bae5-290f006a5e65.html 12:09:08 basically, if you right click on a link you can get a copy URL or whatever, option 12:09:38 ehird, that is there too *shrug* 12:09:56 I use klipper to do it. 12:10:34 when in text mode that is 12:10:59 then I just have to double-click the url 12:11:21 but atm I'm using a GUI client on the bouncer 12:11:25 (as well as ERC) 12:12:09 anyone remembers "microsoft chat"? 12:13:26 It has come to your mind because zzo38 mentioned it yesterday. 12:13:28 * AnMaster looks for his sleeve with http://musicbrainz.org/release/c81f9a16-d42e-40d9-aa87-15f11767a644.html in 12:13:35 ehird, I missed that 12:13:45 I was just considering what on earth a "GUI irc client" is 12:13:51 really it sounds rather strange 12:13:59 considering it is just a text window really 12:14:17 the comics mode in MS chat must be a "GUI" client though 12:15:02 I even missed zzo was here yesterday 12:15:06 AnMaster: you are using a GUI irc client. it uses shitty control code characters to paint (a) a pane with a label, (b) a window with text, with formatting (irc colours, separating nicknames/times etc) and URLs. 12:15:14 and (c) a rich input field 12:15:15 cd sleeve* 12:15:21 and (d) a status line 12:15:34 ehird, um, atm I'm actually using xchat 12:15:36 if you use a fancy one like WeeChat, maybe even a list of items, i.e. the users in the channel. 12:15:41 AnMaster: then why are you wondering what a GUI irc client is/ 12:15:43 ? 12:15:55 ehird, I'm wondering if xchat is really that much "GUI" 12:16:07 compared to comics panels 12:16:54 many GUI applications are minimalist 12:17:22 really, all curses programs tend to be almost entirely uniformly restricted GUIs grafted on to a vt100 12:17:57 hehe 12:18:54 ehird, btw I had to either add nearly all the classical cds I had, or at least add puids/discids to them 12:19:01 almost none had puids before 12:19:13 so they couldn't be automatically identified 12:19:52 :P 12:19:56 ehird, for the non-classical cds it was usually no problem at all. 12:19:56 Well, it has better coverage now. 12:20:04 ehird, still about 30 cds to add... 12:20:08 Yeah, I'm thinking the main thing it lacks is classical, rather than obscure music. 12:20:14 however. I will add them next time I listen 12:20:21 ehird, was that sarcastic? 12:20:26 no 12:20:29 ah 12:20:54 I'm glad I don't like classical for the mostpart; otherwise tagging would be a bitch. 12:20:59 ehird, my plan is not to add all 30 or so in one go, but next time I take one out to listen to it anyway I will add it if missing. 12:21:00 Way too complicated. 12:21:57 luckily they are NOT "various artists" (those are a real pain to add!).. 12:22:19 ehird, ever added any "various artists" where half of the artists were missing? 12:22:41 that's never happened to me. i generally don't listen to compilations so VA cds are rare. 12:22:46 ah 12:23:25 ehird, IMO they should be renamed: complications 12:23:30 heh 12:24:01 (the reason i don't listen to compilations is twofold: (a) artistic sentiment blah blah blah (sort of invalid because i shuffle tracks), (b) if i get an album that has the same track, it'll be an evul duplicate) 12:24:08 especially since it seems the "link artist" popupish thingy got some sort of focus problems 12:24:42 ehird, ah! you are missing out of the joy of classical here! 12:24:52 collect the *best recordings of Vivaldi's music* 12:25:08 personally I'm rather fond of the recordings by City of London Sinfonia. 12:25:15 perforamances* 12:25:20 performances* 12:25:29 But I don't like classical music… (generally) 12:25:38 ehird, well, then you are missing out of it 12:25:57 AnMaster: by your logic, you're missing out on death metal 12:26:01 just one canonical performance? Bah. 12:26:10 sure 12:26:12 there are covers 12:26:16 and so on 12:26:44 but that is still much less than for classical music, where you could consider *all of them* as covers. 12:27:03 I'll have you know I only listen to the authentic original recording of 4'33" 12:27:14 haha 12:27:32 ehird, isn't that the all silent one? 12:27:43 No, it is not silence. 12:28:05 The band consists of everything present that makes noise. 12:28:17 yes 12:28:20 right 12:29:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4′33″ is missing "In popular culture" 12:30:48 and thank god for that 12:30:59 why? 12:31:06 [[There was a similar recording titled: "The Best of Marcel Marceau" available in the seventies lasting a bit longer than four minutes and thirty-three seconds.]] 12:31:08 XD 12:31:26 um? 12:31:29 ah 12:31:31 haha 12:31:33 AnMaster: Because "In popular culture" is insipid and useless: http://xkcd.com/446/ 12:31:47 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it"). 12:31:55 ehird, yeah I got it 12:32:05 12:31 AnMaster: why? 12:32:09 you didn't seem to follow up on that 12:32:36 hm? 12:32:44 why? 12:32:44 [[There was a similar recording titled: "The Best of Marcel Marceau" available in the seventies lasting a bit longer than four minutes and thirty-three seconds.]] 12:32:44 XD 12:32:44 um? 12:32:44 ah 12:32:45 haha 12:32:48 AnMaster: Because "In popular culture" is insipid and useless: http://xkcd.com/446/ 12:32:51 yes right 12:32:57 I was half thinking of something else 12:33:05 so took a second to get what you meant 12:34:23 ehird, it is easy to perform 4'33" 12:34:32 with a stopwatch 12:34:42 using a stopwatch is cheating. 12:34:51 ehird, um 12:34:59 ehird, it says the original performance used one 12:35:08 Yes. Cage was cheating. 12:35:14 ehird, hah 12:35:16 [And then the student was enlightened.] 12:36:36 ehird, this section should be renamed "in popular culture" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4′33″#References_by_other_artists 12:36:50 odd definition of popular culture 12:36:58 * In 2009 Petri Purho released "4 Minutes and 33 Seconds of Uniqueness", a computer game which can only be won by a player if they are the only person in the world playing it for four minutes and thirty-three seconds.[32] 12:37:00 cute 12:37:57 bbl 12:42:14 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:06:46 ehird, anyway 4'33" isn't classical music. 13:07:07 It is if someone's playing classical music next door. 13:07:15 good point 13:07:39 ehird, anyway, the classical period was roughly between 1750 to 1825 according to wikipedia. 13:08:02 I refuse to use classical in the vulgar sense 13:08:19 atm I'm listening to music from the romantic period. 13:08:35 Great, time-based music classification. All music made from the 80s onwards is hereforth known as "Spatula music". 13:08:41 (roughly 1815 to 1910) 13:08:42 That Makes Sense. 13:08:53 ehird, "roughly" 13:09:10 Music has no inherent relation to the time in which it was produced. 13:09:49 ehird, I'm not classifying it by time, but after classification you will see that the time actually does roughly match 13:10:09 I am certain that there is someone out there still producing music exactly like what you'd call classical from that period. 13:10:25 ehird, certainly 13:10:55 there was the neoclassical period too 13:11:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoclassicism 13:11:23 "The termination argument behind the TAPL algorithm for subtyping of equirecursive types is not as scary as it sounds" 13:11:26 I'm sure. 13:11:39 ehird, is this haskell related 13:11:53 Only insofar as Haskell has ties to type system academia. 13:12:06 ah 13:41:08 * FireFly lost the Game 13:41:16 Uh, oh 13:41:18 Wrong channel 13:41:20 Whatever 13:41:21 Still holds 13:42:17 Not the Game in your face bitch 13:54:56 * Warrigal licks a stamp and sticks it to GregorR's transparent, glossy exterior. 13:54:58 O_O 13:57:28 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 13:58:12 GregorR: ...what 13:58:33 -!- ais523_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:58:51 Why, I don't like ANY of the implications of that :P 13:59:17 Warrigal and oerjan would be a perfect match, clearly. 14:23:18 ehird, adding those "relationships" as in http://musicbrainz.org/release/c81f9a16-d42e-40d9-aa87-15f11767a644.html is a pain 14:23:28 even when not bulk editing 14:23:40 now to add conductors too 14:23:42 Suggest some UI improvements? I've only done light editing of MusicBrainz but it's been quite painless for me 14:23:51 ehird, yes that would be good 14:24:02 AnMaster: Those tags are inconsistent though 14:24:07 ehird, how? 14:24:13 "No. 2" but "No.1"/"No.2". 14:24:19 Also, Peer Gynt. 14:24:22 Some have "suite", some don't 14:24:25 ehird, the titles? yeah. I didn't add it. 14:24:28 ah 14:24:36 ehird, I just added the orchestras. 14:24:40 OK 14:25:00 ehird, you can see on the yellow stuff, recently edited things 14:25:06 right 14:26:33 ehird, fixed them, vote on the edits! 14:26:52 Think I'll have to make a new count. I am the notoriously unreliable at remembering such things. 14:26:54 *account 14:27:07 Nice if it used OpenID, although not really as I still haven't set a domain up. 14:27:41 ehird, ah... you can't vote unless you had at least 10 edits accepted 14:27:44 or was it 5 14:27:47 anyway 14:27:51 ah 14:27:55 i'll see if i still have my account\ 14:28:06 I can't vote yet because I only have one edit accepted so far. I have 45 pending ones. 14:28:09 no rejected ones 14:28:18 * ehird attempts to disable tabbing in his browser 14:28:25 AnMaster: 45? wow, that's some dedication\ 14:28:28 argh 14:28:30 I hate this enter key 14:28:37 ehird, also it needs 3 votes to accept. times out after 2 weeks. 14:28:37 \ should go above enter, not next to it! 14:28:43 DAAAAAAAMN YOU TWO-LINE ENTER!!!! 14:29:05 where time out action = pass/fail based on votes 14:29:27 ehird, sorry, more than 45 now 14:29:32 "Found 52 edits matching the current selection." 14:29:39 holy carp 14:30:27 ehird, that is non-autoedits 14:30:33 I have 57 autoedits too 14:30:39 O.O 14:30:41 that is stuff like adding puids and discids 14:30:45 where you don't need voting 14:31:13 ehird, yeah, since half of the stuff isn't there I'm forced to do this! 14:31:25 it's your fault for listening to classical :) 14:31:29 hah 14:32:06 I cancelled one edit, superseded by a new edit without typo, so down to 51 open edits. 14:32:10 ehird, anyway http://musicbrainz.org/mod/search/pre/editor.html?userid=467550 14:32:32 DAAAAAAAMN YOU TWO-LINE ENTER!!!! <-- I'm used to two line enter 14:33:00 i was but i now prefer the layout where the slightly larger than normal \ key is above a two-key wide enter 14:33:39 Could not log in: Either the user name you entered does not exist, or the given password did not match the one stored on the server. Please try again ;; I wish sites would tell you which; it's barely any security gained 14:33:49 heh 14:35:42 I wonder how long until I regret disabling tabs 14:38:29 ehird, what tabs? 14:38:42 browser tabs 14:40:21 ehird, why disable them 14:40:47 because they're actually just a hack for not having a good window manager (eg pwm, fluxbox, pekwm and others can tab windows) 14:40:54 i'm going to see if i have a good window manager :) 14:41:25 "Could not log in: One of these happend: a) The user name you entered does not exist. b) The given password did not match the one stored on the server. c) There was some sort of internal server error. d) Other" 14:41:39 suggestion for new more ambiguous error :P 14:42:09 e) Quantum 14:42:15 ah right 14:42:21 it could be both at once 14:42:32 no, no 14:42:38 The login failed because of quantum. 14:42:51 * AnMaster listens to http://musicbrainz.org/track/a906855a-90ab-4ec9-bc85-fb3f1f93bef5.html 14:42:52 ehird, ah 14:43:00 * ehird reënables tabs, victim to a bad window manager 14:43:06 heh 14:43:10 AnMaster: you should script that. call it now-playing. 14:43:12 i'm sure it'll be a hit. 14:43:15 everyone will do it. 14:43:16 ehird, :D 14:43:38 ehird, you mean, extract metadata from vlc somehow? 14:43:57 vlc as a music player? how bizarre 14:44:03 well okay not that bizarre 14:44:11 ehird, except I'm playing this from a CD. And I'm using vlc to play the cd 14:44:15 oh 14:44:31 ehird, so the only info I have on it is the cddb entry 14:44:34 inside vlc 14:44:45 all it says is "Grieg - Lyric Suite, Op. 54 No.4, March of the Dwarfs" 14:45:02 when I play a flac that I handled in picard already it will contain the id 14:45:30 has anyone else never really used virtual desktops? 14:45:39 ehird, eh? 14:45:44 you know, multiple workspaces 14:45:46 s/never/ever/? 14:45:49 no 14:45:50 never 14:45:52 um 14:45:56 not sure what you mean 14:45:57 i try them every year or so and come back with the impression that it's totally useless with a non-paltry sized screen 14:46:00 I use them slighly 14:46:03 i'm just wondering if i'm weird 14:46:03 not much 14:46:19 ehird, I use them a bit, but most stuff on one desktop 14:46:39 i wonder if i can make the delay on hovering over the dock before it appears shorter 14:47:05 ehird, if it was linux you could always do that ;P 14:47:12 yes, yes 14:47:21 i -am- switching to linux 14:47:37 ehird, if gnome, probably by hacking the source, or by gconfedit. if KDE by some well hidden setting 14:47:52 the gconf editor is fine tbh 14:47:58 i don't think gnome has all that many source-only things 14:48:20 ehird, bah, stop destroying fine stereotypes! 14:48:23 AnMaster: with a lisp machine, by pressing whatever keycombo gives you the menu to click "Edit Source" 14:48:31 and changing it immediately :) 14:48:34 ehird, :) 14:48:45 or, by changing a (defvar dock-hover-delay ...) or whatever in the source 14:48:55 or with a gui that changes foo-bar-baz into Foo Bar Baz 14:48:57 like M-x customize does 14:48:58 :-P 14:49:11 after all, lisp machines were pretty much system-wide emacs done right... 14:49:24 why does scheme use define for both defvar and defun 14:49:54 AnMaster: because (define (foo x) ...) = (define foo (lambda (x) ...)) 14:49:56 it's a lisp-1 14:50:02 lisp-1? 14:50:06 common lisp is a lisp-2, i.e. function/variable namespaces are separate 14:50:10 scheme is a lisp-1, i.e. one namespace for everything 14:50:11 ah generations 14:50:13 oh no 14:50:15 hm 14:50:17 languages like python, etc are lisp-1 14:50:19 well 14:50:20 not lisp- 14:50:21 but you know 14:50:25 so number of namespaces? 14:50:26 not many things are lisp-2 14:50:33 AnMaster: pretty much; with common lisp you can't do 14:50:36 (mapcar function ...) 14:50:37 it has to be 14:50:40 (mapcar #'function ...) 14:50:45 ugly! 14:50:47 and you can name variables list and still do (list 1 2 3) 14:50:48 yes, it is ugly 14:50:49 hm 14:50:56 give me naming variables "lst" any day 14:51:00 I guess erlang is erlang-2, kind of 14:51:11 AnMaster: i think so 14:51:35 Variables always start with a capital or _. Atoms start with lower case. BUT you can use single quotes around to make anything an atom 14:51:44 function names must be valid atoms 14:52:06 so calling 'To be or not be a function'(X, Y, Z) works 14:52:11 but is extremely bad style 14:52:38 AnMaster: in 3 seconds, please highlight me 14:52:45 why ehird ? 14:53:13 to see if I managed to conquer LimeChat's habit of leaving Growl highlight notifications on the screen until I click them 14:53:19 (I did, by fixing it in the Growl settings) 14:53:22 ah 14:53:29 btw. I'm off for about an hour. 14:53:29 cya 14:57:51 -!- sebbu has joined. 15:06:08 Post-reboot, my mac is running happier and faster. Yay. 15:11:56 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Success). 15:14:52 But does it TASTE better? 15:16:52 GregorR: Which part? 15:17:06 The exhaust is full of brown stuff. 15:17:32 t 15:17:32 h 15:17:34 a 15:17:35 t 15:17:37 ' 15:17:40 s 15:17:41 15:17:44 w 15:17:45 h 15:17:47 a 15:17:50 t 15:17:52 15:17:53 s 15:17:55 h 15:17:58 e 15:17:59 15:18:02 s 15:18:03 a 15:18:05 i 15:18:07 d 15:18:09 ! 15:18:28 That's what HE said. 15:19:04 -!- inurinternet has joined. 15:21:16 I wonder if there's a patch you can do to put the Happy Mac logo back on your boot screen. 15:21:44 As well as the olde boot sound? 15:21:56 Even sampled from one of their shit-o speakers so it'll sound right (wrong) 15:22:53 GregorR: Sure, the old sound would be nice too. 15:24:15 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:25:03 * ehird removes two partitions from disk, resizes currently-booted partition to fill their space, without any LVM stuff 15:25:10 It's nice to be able to do that. 15:25:13 ehird: what were they for? 15:25:22 botched arch linux install from a while ago 15:25:29 i could use the extra 9GB, i only have like 6GB free 15:25:35 fair enough 15:25:44 hmm more than 9GB if you include the swap i think 15:25:55 I HAS KITTY 15:26:02 can any other OS do that, anyway? linux can with lvm 15:26:06 but can it with regular partitions? 15:26:16 (i.e. partition the disk while booted into it, then resize the currently booted partition) 15:26:52 i'll get 10.8GB back for this, hoorah 15:28:48 bleah, i can delete the linux partition but not the linux swap one 15:28:49 lessee 15:37:37 eh, i'll just leave the swap partition for now 15:47:00 -!- inurinternet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:50:44 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 15:53:28 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:56:58 hi oerjan 15:57:06 hi ehird 16:00:23 you like the worst xkcd in ages 16:00:33 * oerjan swats ehird without mercy -----### 16:00:43 IT'S LIKE RICKROLLING BUT YOU'RE TRAPPED ALL DAY HURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR 16:01:05 Other analogies made by Munroe at the time include "HAVING SEX IS LIKE JUMPING OF A BRIDGE; BUT YOU'RE HAVING SEXUAL INTERCOURSE AND NOT JUMPING OF A BRIDGE." 16:01:23 ehird: Yes, you can do that with normal partitions. 16:01:29 he said that? 16:01:42 oerjan: It's a Researched Fact. 16:01:43 pikhq: Cool. 16:01:47 -!- GuestShadowSkunk has changed nick to Slereah. 16:01:54 parted and resize2fs. 16:02:15 Heck, even fdisk would work if you're willing to deal with the unsafety involved. 16:20:52 Why, I don't like ANY of the implications of that :P 16:20:57 great success! 16:27:17 Post-reboot, my mac is running happier and faster. Yay. <-- doesn't this bother you? 16:27:33 though I had such issues under one kernel. 2.6.21 I think it was. 16:27:43 AnMaster: It would if I had not started an awful lot of applications before. 16:27:48 (such issues = reboot fixing it) 16:27:53 Not fixing. 16:27:55 Just snappier. 16:28:08 Memory management not picking up stuff, maybe some useless daemons left behind. 16:28:16 Definitely, OS X's memory management could be better. 16:29:29 ehird, similar. I remember having memory fragmentation issues under 2.6.21 (or around there). Some later kernel fixed it by putting movable user pages in one part of the memory and fixed pages for DMA and such in another. Making it easier to free up a contiguous memory block when needed. 16:29:31 iirc 16:29:39 mm 16:29:46 hah 16:29:49 But really, I just open too much stuff for my RAM. 16:29:54 AnMaster: That wasn't intentional, btw 16:29:58 ehird, I'm pretty sure you didn't intend "mm" as a joke yeah 16:30:03 but it was still pretty funny 16:30:43 anyway, it's been sailing smoothly since; subjectively the minimalisation I did of the UI beforehand probably helps the feeling. 16:31:38 ehird, anyway, since 2.6.26 or something linux begins putting movable pages in one end and fixed pages in the other (this is a simplification, there is more to things than this), this reduces memory fragmentation quite a bit iirc. 16:32:10 OS X's memory management is probably good enough technically; just not tuned for UI responsiveness. 16:32:26 I had "slow down after some weeks turned on" before that anti-fragmentation thing 16:32:46 especially disk IO used to suffer 16:33:42 my only-partly-educated guess is that it was harder for the DMA stuff to find large regions when doing stuff like copying large files between two disks and such 16:36:15 ehird, ah seems like it was 2.6.24 that fixed it 16:36:23 not .26 as I said above 16:56:05 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:05:40 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:23:35 * ehird tries to hide menu bar so that his desktop can be 100% gray 17:24:04 obsessive-compulsive? unpossible! 17:40:48 ehird, 17:40:52 ;P 17:41:16 notably, I do not choose operating systems based on whether I can hide their menu bar or not 17:41:27 good reply :) 17:41:41 damn i was trying to troll you into a tirade about freedom 17:41:49 ehird, bad luck 17:51:05 -!- oerjan has quit ("Freedom is slavery"). 17:54:18 My new desktop: small, http://imgur.com/VdWzh.png; big, http://imgur.com/n5MxZ.png. 17:59:46 Needs more blue 18:00:45 No. I don't think so. 18:03:49 ehird, too much menu bar 18:03:56 No. I don't think so. 18:04:03 btw, how did you hide the HD icon thingy? 18:04:11 HD icon thingy? 18:04:20 or do I misremember, and it is only Classic MacOS that had it 18:04:26 What is the HD icon thingy? 18:04:29 oh 18:04:32 harddrive 18:04:35 yeah 18:04:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Leopard_Desktop.png <-- it's there 18:04:52 AnMaster: Finder → Preferences → General → untick "Hard disks" from "Show these items on the Desktop:". 18:05:23 I also disabled the 3D dock, so now it's a lean, mean, autohiding, semi-transparent black, white-bordered-with-curve application switching-and-launching machine. 18:07:01 can you get the recycle bin on the desktop instead of in the dock in OS X? Just wondering 18:07:25 Sure, I guess; make a shortcut to ~/.Trash 18:07:35 You probably won't be able to evict it from the Dock, though. 18:07:40 heh 18:11:48 ehird: Needs more K. 18:12:01 pikhq: What do you want me to do; heat up my monitor? 18:12:43 YES. 18:13:04 Strangely, the Graphite theme, though less colourful than Blue, does not leave me feeling more spartan. Back to the prettier Blue. 18:13:09 pikhq: So what did you really mean? :-P 18:13:33 A sort of K desktop environment. 18:13:59 K as in KDE? 18:14:24 pikhq is on crack 18:17:04 bbl 18:17:07 And so's my 3D WM. 18:19:57 pikhq: you're using a 3D WM? 18:20:09 congrats, you hate your sense of usability 18:21:43 Strictly speaking, all that it's doing could be done soley with 2D. 18:21:50 It's merely using OpenGL for speed's sake. 18:22:02 (the fanciest thing it's doing is Exposé-like) 18:24:33 pikhq: I thought you used a tiling WM. 18:24:57 I changed my mind on a whim. 18:25:18 So… Misguided but well-intentioned attempt at usability → shitty, mass-produced glitzy WM. 18:25:20 Ohkay. 18:26:18 Seriously, the only feature of it that requires any compositing that I use at all is the Exposé-like thing... 18:26:31 Shush, you. It's still traditional. :P 18:26:39 Yes, 'tis. 18:27:04 I thought you were accusing me of using the shitty cube desktop. 18:27:13 And other such completely useless glitz. 18:27:36 I have to concede that I haevn't yet used anything better than the traditional floating windows model. 18:27:39 *haven't 18:37:40 > repeat [] 18:37:42 [[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[],[]... 18:38:07 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 18:38:57 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 18:41:50 -!- zzo38 has joined. 18:44:52 Which esolangs of each inventor do you like best/worst of each? 18:46:10 Gee, I'll just research and compile a gigantic list. Right now. 18:54:15 -!- jix has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:54:17 -!- jix has joined. 19:07:59 -!- CESSMASTER has quit ("☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃"). 19:09:59 I now defined a few variations of Suxesol program language (all are optional). 19:14:32 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 19:14:40 you really like options don't you 19:15:35 Yes those are possible variations on this program language, you can use whichever one you prefer for the case you are working with. 19:16:10 zzo38: you should add a configuration option to one of your projects where you can set the code of the program to what you want so it does what you want 19:16:55 I'm not sure I understand you fully. 19:17:48 zzo38: well, if you want a program to be 100% configurable 19:17:51 then you can do like this: 19:18:01 settings['programcode'] = read(this_file) 19:18:07 then when it changes 19:18:15 execute(this_file);exit() 19:18:28 so you can patch the source how you want, thus removing the need for any other configuration options 19:18:59 I have made various programs. I have added a Forth interpreter to MegaZeux. 19:19:09 huh? 19:19:22 what's that got to do with what i said? 19:19:56 ehird: No, that won't work very well, if you want different program codes you just get the source-codes and re-write it 19:20:11 zzo38: but you practically make it do that anyway 19:21:18 What I meant is that you can add stuff to the program using Forth in this way. Not re-writing the entire program but you can add events to run at the hooking points in order to modify how parts of the program works. 19:22:40 just make the system completely hot-patchable 19:22:46 lisp machine or such 19:22:57 which reminds me, I must get the genera thingy working 19:23:05 genera on linux is amusing 19:23:08 you have to emulate linux 19:23:10 which emulates a lisp machine 19:23:17 because genera craps all over your environment :D 19:23:20 ehird, yeah I know, so I'll wait until I have more disk space 19:23:25 eh 19:23:25 atm I'm a bit low 19:23:29 just put a minimal install on there 19:23:33 like 1GB total including genera 19:23:39 I found a web-site of not making any sense at http://ltsun.com/demo/index.php It includes menus that don't make sense, text overlapping other text, some Japanese text with a comment saying not Korean, and other strange things. This is TRWTF 19:23:40 you can dispense with window mangement 19:23:43 ehird, 4.4 GB free 19:23:43 -!- MizardX has joined. 19:23:44 use genera as the root window 19:23:51 still haven't got a replacement disk 19:23:58 for the old one that broke 19:23:58 zzo38: it is obviously a demo page 19:24:15 LTSun-Engine CMS 19:24:16 LTSun-Engine was designed in response to the unanswered demand of clients and informed web users seeking a way to create, edit, manage, and optimize web content without the cumbersome requirements of other existing CMS. 19:24:34 err... cumbersome? 19:25:06 it's marketing bullshit 19:25:10 i was just copying from ltsun.com 19:26:04 I understood that... 19:26:28 was just commenting on how absurd it was 19:28:45 ah 19:28:46 brb 19:31:48 In this screenshot, I show off my classy new Dock: http://imgur.com/iCOI4.png 19:32:41 -!- coppro has joined. 19:34:22 ehird, what is the mouldy orange thingy? 19:34:38 AnMaster: Ummm........ do you know what a lime is? 19:34:56 ehird, I never ate one. I do know the outside of them as they are in the store. 19:35:08 Right, well, it's not a lime. 19:35:12 It's a mouldy orange. 19:35:20 ehird, funnier that way 19:35:56 so I guess that is mouldyorangechat then? 19:36:11 ehird, what about the green bird? 19:36:20 That would be a duck... 19:36:29 His name is Adiumy. 19:36:34 right, wasn't sure, what with ducks usually not being green! 19:36:51 Adiumy comes in multiple colours. 19:36:59 some im yeah 19:38:31 ehird, what is the website for adium? if it is adium.im as wikipedia says, there is dns trouble for it. Even using opendns 19:38:39 The hideous dark-blue/light-blue chimera is an application where you input a white person and you input a black person, it merges them. 19:38:46 The compass is a GPS application. 19:39:06 The arrow pointing to the computer on the folder controls the hard drive's shock resistance protection. 19:39:13 ehird, I know what Finder is and I know what Safari is 19:39:15 The trash can is, uh, a trash can. 19:39:33 what is that unusual folder? Really 19:39:40 AnMaster: Everything I said after "The hideous" until the start of this line is bullshit. Apart from that thing about the trash can. 19:39:42 Also, downloads. 19:39:49 ah 19:40:48 0 19:40:53 ehird, btw, you know you can't quit finder from any menu? 19:40:58 -!- zzo38 has quit ("ACTION "). 19:41:23 ehird, however, using that speech command thing, you could (at least in Tiger) tell it to "quit application finder" and it would do it 19:41:41 you could restart it again using "open finder" or something similar 19:42:21 ehird, did you know that? 19:42:35 Eh, I added Cmd-Q to the Finder with a hack a while back. 19:42:36 Rather pointless. 19:42:42 That was Tiger though. 19:42:45 ehird, oh? how? 19:42:51 Don't recall. 19:43:01 * AnMaster remembers resedit 19:43:08 do you? 19:43:23 guess not, never used under OS X iirc 19:44:18 AnMaster: Incidentally, that duck opens its eyes when you run it. 19:44:24 ehird, argh. 19:44:39 What's argh about that? :P 19:45:23 ehird, just a personal hate for icons like the thunderbrid one having a number for number of unread mail (almost always just new spam) and similar 19:45:31 oh, it's nothing like that 19:45:40 it just changes to open eyes when the app is open, closes them when disconnected 19:45:43 it's just a useful indicator 19:46:14 if you get a message it does jump up like all applications do when they notify, and does get a little stamp with the number of unread messages, but generally you look at those rather quickly with IM (and you can disable the notification, leaving just the banner) 19:46:22 ehird, decided what irc client you will use under linux btw? 19:46:25 it might flap its wings too; I never look. I just use the Growl notifications. 19:46:40 AnMaster: Hadn't even thought about it. Maybe xchat-gnome. 19:46:51 ehird, you prefer gnome over xmonad? 19:47:08 My pick of xchat-gnome isn't inherently gnome-related, it just has a leaner UI. 19:47:10 But yes, I do. 19:47:14 Tiling WMs suck. 19:47:14 ehird, what about KDE? 19:47:25 (and which version?) 19:47:26 Meh. I might check out KDE 4.3 or whatever. 19:47:33 hm 19:47:43 KDE 3 I'm no fan of. It's just cluttery. 19:48:36 Requirements: Minimum of 8 years of the following experience: [...] •Microsoft Reporting services 2005 19:48:40 — http://newjersey.craigslist.org/eng/1255128352.html 19:49:22 heh 19:49:46 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:24:23 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:41:08 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:44:12 -!- MizardX has joined. 20:47:04 http://imgur.com/X1Hi1.gif 20:47:08 L1, L2, RAM, hard disk. 20:47:12 One pixel per nanosecond. 20:47:36 heh. 20:47:55 Very pretty. 20:47:59 Could use L3. 20:55:06 -!- Pthing has joined. 21:04:04 -!- Sgeo has joined. 21:06:25 success 21:06:32 Deewiant, first example of ATHR: 21:06:34 $ ./efunge tests/athr/02_spawn_simple.b98 21:06:34 TEST: Will test S followed by Q in the old thread, waiting for input in new thread, then exiting. 21:06:34 IInn noelwd!! 21:06:34 Please input any char: 21:06:34 3 21:06:35 Read: "3" 21:06:44 still a long way to go 21:06:52 also I need a new host, the current one is down 21:07:03 and will so be forever (all data is backed up yes) 21:07:39 Will so be. 21:08:13 ehird, bad grammar? 21:08:22 Terribly. 21:08:28 ehird, kay 21:09:24 "IInn noelwd!!" btw is "In new!" and "In old!" mixing up 21:09:26 as expected 21:09:41 Iinn noewld. 21:10:16 yeah 21:13:46 ehird, since the actual pause isn't deterministic, it sometimes ends up as that and other variants. 21:13:51 except upper case I 21:13:58 and !! instead of a single . 21:14:07 Shush. 21:14:34 it does seem to end up with "IInn noelwd!!" rather often though, *shrug* 21:26:23 wat 21:27:56 Pthing, ATHR is a fingerprint I'm working on, meant to help befunge keeping it's market share by allowing it to take advantage of multiple cpus/cores. 21:28:01 ;P 21:28:15 a noble efford 21:28:21 -!- jix has joined. 21:28:21 but what's the IInn noelwd 21:28:23 deal 21:28:37 Pthing, two threads printing at once 21:28:43 thus overwriting each other partly 21:28:46 it shows it works 21:28:48 (so far) 21:29:14 oh, that makes sense 21:34:31 AnMaster, "Sgeo" is also mixed up in a similar way 21:34:42 Sgeo, err ok? 21:35:25 Sgeo: Didn't you used to be Oegs or something. 21:36:36 Um, not that you should have ever seen 21:36:40 o.O 21:36:52 I think I read it on the Creatures wiki. Also, where does "should" enter in to it? 21:36:58 Oh, ok 21:37:01 Am I not meant to tread on your kinky sex websites or something? 21:37:06 Aww, I preferred it when you were confused. 21:37:22 It's part of my AIM name, and my name on Wulfram 21:37:40 Two things which I think you didn't know me from 21:52:53 with async thread and when you are testing thread sync you get some funny messages: "?tupni eht htiw hguone wols erew uoy erus ,eulav detcepxe daer t'ndiD :DAB YLEKIL" 21:53:03 I assume you can read backwards without problems 21:54:19 No I can't; but irb(1) can. 21:54:43 ehird, I used rev to write it 21:54:45 not sure what irb is 21:54:50 Ruby shell. 21:54:58 I compulsively use it for things like reversing or doing basic calculations. 21:55:16 rev(1) is easier, not sure if it is GNU specific or not. 21:55:18 I could also use frink and do: 21:55:21 "?tupni eht htiw hguone wols erew uoy erus ,eulav detcepxe daer t'ndiD :DAB YLEKIL" -> reverse 21:55:31 frink? 21:55:52 AnMaster: http://futureboy.us/frinkdocs/; a clever calculator/programming languages that knows a metric fuckton of units. 21:55:59 hm ok 21:56:00 (But not the metric fuckton, unfortunately.) 21:56:12 only the imperial fuckton? 21:56:13 AnMaster: It also has things like easy googling, regexps, date processing etc 21:56:33 ehird, open source? 21:56:35 It's for doing calculations involving tangible data from places; conversions and calculations with glue. 21:56:47 AnMaster: Unfortunately not; I'm not sure why, though; you could ask him, I suppose. 21:56:51 hm 21:56:52 It's Java, though, so you could decompile it. 21:57:21 Said person is also behind http://futureboy.us/mithenge/, which is delightfully pointless, especially as it doesn't benefit him. 21:58:32 heh 22:06:22 I dislike how LimeChat includes ;s at the end of links. 22:11:46 ehird, change the regex? 22:11:53 or whatever it uses 22:11:58 But that would be work. 22:11:59 I always put a space after URLs when punctuation follows, just to prevent that from happening in any clients 22:12:05 I always put a space after URLs when punctuation follows, just to prevent that from happening in any clients 22:12:12 Sgeo: But that makes you sound http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French ! 22:14:03 ugh, damn thing won't stay in 22:14:54 Why is Basic Instructions down?! 22:15:13 Sgeo, basic instructions for what? 22:15:23 It's a comic 22:15:48 And if you say that you know, and were making a joke, sorry 22:16:07 Sgeo: AnMaster never know. 22:16:08 knows. 22:16:12 Basic Instructions is funny though. 22:16:24 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:16:34 :) 22:16:40 ah a comic called that 22:16:51 ugh, damn thing won't stay in <-- then what was that about? 22:17:02 It's what HE said! 22:17:06 ice burn. 22:17:13 -_- 22:17:22 AnMaster, the ethernet wire keeps falling out 22:17:24 ah 22:17:34 (By ethernet wire he means penis.) 22:17:37 is that why you repeated " I always put a space after URLs when punctuation follows, just to prevent that from happening in any clients" ? 22:17:49 ehird, I don't believe that :P 22:17:56 AnMaster, yes, I didn't think it came through 22:17:59 That's because you don't get jokes. 22:18:23 ehird, I realised it was a poor attempt at humour yes. 22:18:32 Nooo. 22:18:34 He means it for serious. 22:18:43 you mean it you mean 22:18:58 since the discussion was about what you said 22:19:02 not what Sgeo said 22:19:19 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 22:19:40 GregorR, fixed the åäö bug yet? 22:19:48 `run echo ö > test.txt 22:19:49 No output. 22:19:51 Failed to record changes. 22:19:57 GregorR, STILL BROKEN! 22:20:06 When did you first report said bug? 22:20:09 While I was off in Italy. 22:20:12 (Presumably) 22:20:21 !help 22:20:21 help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help . 22:20:26 `help 22:20:26 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 22:20:36 GregorR: two days ago. 22:20:38 GregorR, it fails for unicode on the command 22:20:51 Not on the command. 22:20:52 On the filesystem. 22:20:57 hm ok 22:21:03 For instance. 22:21:05 `echo butt 22:21:06 butt 22:21:08 That's really bizarre, actually ... 22:21:08 `echo bütt 22:21:08 bütt 22:21:15 GregorR: hg encoding issues, I presume. 22:21:16 ehird, so fetch is broken if file contains åöä 22:21:19 åäö* 22:21:21 or similiar 22:21:25 Except hg has no encoding issues ... at least, not that I've ever seen ... 22:21:32 GregorR, also your client was connected, so I assume you read the away log with the highlights 22:21:34 GregorR: Never seen? Aren't we seeing them now? :P 22:21:36 seems that isn't true 22:22:07 ehird: There are a trillion other potential problems in this setup. 22:22:10 so how do I reliably get a message through that you will read next time you connect to the bouncer or look at the client or whatever? 22:22:12 GregorR: Do not be insolent! You must not displease AnMaster. 22:22:20 SERVE HIS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT COMMUNICATION DEMANDS. 22:22:22 GregorR, just wondering ^ 22:22:36 ehird, sending a /msg to me means I will *sooner or later* read it. 22:22:39 AnMaster: /msg 22:22:45 GregorR, ok, good to know 22:23:01 GregorR, anyway, unicode is broken for stuff like `quote too 22:23:07 `quote foo 22:23:07 No output. 22:23:10 hm 22:23:12 because quote writes to the filesystem 22:23:13 OH, I think I know the issue then. 22:23:14 or whatever the command was 22:23:15 AnMaster: addquote. 22:23:19 ehird, right that was it 22:23:25 The LOG won't accept unicode, I believe. 22:23:35 GregorR, okay, make that work? 22:23:41 please 22:23:46 GregorR: but `echo bütt works. 22:23:49 Or ... not 22:23:56 oh 22:23:58 that doesn't go in log 22:23:58 ehird, no changes to record 22:24:00 OK, I have not a fucking clue what the problem is :P 22:24:11 GregorR, can't you debug it? 22:24:12 As I can commit changes with unicode in the log here :P 22:24:12 :/ 22:24:18 Yeah GregorR 22:24:20 Deeebug it. 22:24:20 GregorR, check LC_* and LANG 22:24:22 Not right now, I have other sh** to do. 22:24:22 With your magical debugging mind. 22:24:34 You have other shasterisksasterisks? 22:24:40 is that sanskrit? 22:24:44 ehird, attach gdb to everything on the system. 22:24:50 gdb kernel 22:24:50 step 22:24:51 step 22:24:53 step 22:25:15 ehird, quite possible with a serial cable or a firewire one 22:25:29 then that'd become part of the system and you'd have to debug that too 22:25:32 as well as the debugging computer 22:25:41 ehird, hopefully not. 22:25:52 yes it would 22:25:54 ehird, you could run it in qemu and attach gdb 22:25:55 that's the definition of a system 22:25:57 interconnected components 22:26:06 AnMaster: that would work if the emulation was perfect; it's not 22:26:10 it has holes into the above system 22:26:14 obviously 22:26:22 ehird, only well guarded holes 22:26:30 Unlike your mom. 22:26:34 hah. 22:26:46 ehird: Well played :P 22:26:49 ehird, I don't know about that. but that is what YOUR MOM said. 22:26:58 GregorR: Unlike AnMaster's attempt. 22:27:09 agreed. I'm not used to that sort of memes. 22:27:21 all your mom are belong to dead memes 22:28:11 Please stop. 22:28:15 I beg you. 22:29:07 ehird, Can haz for great justice? 22:29:27 urgh 22:33:09 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal"). 22:33:44 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:48:56 brb 22:54:58 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 23:14:06 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 23:31:35 ehird, are you back yet? I have a question for you 23:33:27 do you know the fingerprint HRTI for befunge 98? If not: it provides a millisecond accuracy timer (at best). However modern computers can easily manage accuracy around a few nanoseconds for timers. Yet HRTI is specified in milliseconds and can't use it. 23:34:00 My question thus is: What would be a good unit if I were to add high resolution time measurement to a new fingerprint 23:34:14 would nanoseconds be enough or should one future proof it by going for picoseconds or such 23:38:28 back 23:38:40 AnMaster: planck times 23:38:48 it's befunge, why does it have to be practical? 23:38:51 Definitely. 23:38:53 heh 23:39:02 how much would one second be in plack times? 23:39:05 plank* 23:39:10 would it fit in a 32-bit integer? 23:39:15 fuck no! 23:39:16 Or maybe petatimes; planck times are *small*. 23:39:17 signed one 23:39:32 AnMaster: 1 planck time is the minimum unit of time that makes sense 23:39:38 ehird, the use here is for a timeout 23:39:43 in smaller units, physics gets all quantum and shit 23:39:46 AnMaster: planck times dammit 23:40:09 AnMaster: anyway one planck time is um 23:40:10 well 23:40:13 ehird, right. Can you express even one millisecond in a 32-bit singed integer using planck times? 23:40:19 1 attosecond is 10^-18 seconds 23:40:27 and 1 attosecond is 10^26 planck times 23:40:27 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:40:29 you do the mathematic 23:40:29 s 23:40:35 AnMaster: a millisecond is an aeon 23:40:36 no oerjan just joined 23:40:37 he can do it 23:40:41 no, _i_ do the mathematics 23:40:46 oerjan, as I siad 23:40:47 said* 23:40:53 oerjan: AnMaster is asking whether he can represent 1ms in 32-bit signed integers in planck times 23:40:54 what mathematics? 23:40:56 i'm responding "fuck no!" 23:41:09 `google 1 ms in planck time 23:41:11 106, 1 megasecond (11.6 days), Ms, month = 2.6 x 106 s .... [edit] External links. Exploring Time from Planck time to the lifespan of the universe ... \ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(time) - [17]Cached - [18]Similar 23:41:20 23:40 ehird: 1 attosecond is 10^-18 seconds 23:41:20 * 106? 23:41:20 23:40 ehird: and 1 attosecond is 10^26 planck times 23:41:28 i don't think google will work with units that huge. 23:41:32 (as in, 1 ms in it) 23:41:35 `google planck time 23:41:36 10. [PDF] \ [42]THE PLANCK SCALE 23:41:48 oerjan, expressed in planck times, what is the largest time unit you can fit into a signed 32 bit integer. Expressed as a reasonable unit (attseconds, millseconds or whatever) 23:41:49 Frink probably has it. 23:41:50 oh wait 23:41:52 Want me to use Frink? 23:41:57 `calc 1 ms in planck time 23:41:58 106, 1 megasecond (11.6 days), Ms, month = 2.6 x 106 s .... [edit] External links. Exploring Time from Planck time to the lifespan of the universe ... 23:42:04 bah 23:42:12 AnMaster: i don't think you realise how COLOSSALLY SMALL a planck time is 23:42:14 106 == conversion fail 23:42:22 It is the time required for light to travel, in a vacuum, a distance of 1 Planck length.[1] 23:42:23 ehird, do you really *understand* that? 23:42:29 ehird, I suspect no one does 23:42:33 hmph, google doesn't have planck time as a unit, it seems 23:42:38 1 planck length is approximately 1.616252 x 10^-35 meters 23:42:40 oerjan: no shit 23:43:00 what was the W|A command 23:43:03 this should be perfect for it 23:43:08 ANMASTER 23:43:09 Nothing does it 23:43:13 because it's too small 23:43:15 and the resulting number is too big 23:43:19 way, way too big 23:43:21 > googolplex 23:43:22 Not in scope: `googolplex' 23:43:22 ehird, W|A can convert planck times I bet 23:43:22 ehird: rubbish, it's just exponential notation 23:43:23 almost certainly 23:43:44 http://www24.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1+ms+in+planck+times 23:43:50 1.855 x 10^40 23:43:55 `wolfram 1 ms in planck times 23:44:05 1 ms in planck times \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 ms millisecond to Planck times \ Result: \ \ 1.855 1040 Planck times \ Additional conversions: \ \ 1000 µs microseconds \ Interpretation: \ \ time \ Corresponding quantity: \ \ Distance x traveled by light in a vacuum from x 186 miles 300 km kilometers \ 23:44:06 AnMaster: 1.8550000000000000000e+40 planck times 23:44:16 ehird, yeah, a bit outside reasonable range to express 23:44:23 but that is less than a gogolplex right? 23:44:29 spelling 23:44:32 yes, I wasn't quite thinking straight 23:44:36 it's even less than a googol 23:44:37 AnMaster: representing 18550000000000000762995842968505615908864 is trivial with bignums btw 23:44:53 ehird, yes, but this fingerprint should work on stuff like CCBI and such too 23:44:58 erm 23:44:59 Deewiant expressed interest in it 23:45:00 d has bignums 23:45:01 silly 23:45:11 ehird, however CCBI uses 32-bit signed integers 23:45:21 push it as multiple stack elements 23:45:33 i'm sick and tired of befunge not having enough esoteric fingerprints 23:45:42 hmm actually planck times are rather reasonable 23:45:46 1 second = 1603000000000000157093599504886293773972613890048 planck times 23:45:49 that number's peanuts 23:45:51 so what is a reasonable accuracy for timeouts? nanoseconds or picoseconds? I want to future proof it for the next 20 years or so 23:45:52 physics sure is shaky :D 23:46:06 AnMaster: PLANCK TIMES 23:46:15 Fuck! Practical! Units! This! Is! Befunge! 23:46:18 ehird, this one has some esotericness. 23:46:27 if it's not planck times, it's not enough 23:46:31 ehird, to sync threads you use books. 23:46:36 AnMaster: in 20 years we may have a singularity. 23:46:46 so you need the smallest quantity you can think of 23:46:48 → planck times!!!!!!!!!!!!! 23:46:49 ehird, make it 10 years then 23:46:54 also possible 23:47:00 ehird, next two years? 23:47:08 booooring 23:47:10 Less likely. 23:47:22 two years isn't futureproofing 23:47:26 just do planck times! 23:47:31 it's just a few stack elements 23:47:49 "1.0 nanoseconds (1.0 ns) – cycle time for frequency 1 GHz, radio wavelength 0.3 m" says wikipedia. So on a modern CPU nanoseconds would be enough, on a future one in some years, maybe you need the next step down 23:47:54 but probably not more than picoseconds 23:48:02 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:48:04 Uhh, moore's law. 23:48:07 You have to go more than a step down. 23:48:19 ehird, yes, but currently we are scaling cores, not speed 23:48:23 PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PL 23:48:26 ANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—PLANCK—FUCKING—TIMES 23:48:30 DO IT 23:48:32 :| 23:48:36 1 second = 1603000000000000157093599504886293773972613890048 planck times <-- something tells me the part past the first zeros isn't accurate ;D 23:48:59 ehird, I WANT THIS TO BE IMPLEMENTABLE TO EXPRESS SOMETHING LIKE "2 second timeout" on an implementation with 32 bit signed integers. 23:49:07 and indeed, probably not more than at most one of the zeros 23:49:09 AnMaster: Then don't fucking ask #esoteric. 23:49:15 oerjan: accurate enough :P 23:49:41 btw, expressing 10^40 in befunge would be a rather long string 23:49:46 AnMaster: Maybe you should read the channel name again... #esoteric... as in esoteric... as in abnormal... as in you're writing a goddamn befunge fingerprint 23:50:04 ehird, yes... correct. but iirc you said you liked practical esolangs 23:50:07 just a few days ago 23:50:12 that meant something VERY different 23:50:22 ehird, what exactly? 23:50:26 a dead esolang is not an uninteresting esolang with some libraries that happen to be fucking boring 23:50:28 err 23:50:31 s/dead eso/practical eso/ 23:50:38 (mixing of windows...) 23:50:45 > logBase 2 1603000000000000157093599504886293773972613890048 23:50:46 160.13332298008586 23:50:46 a practical esolang is a language designed for real use using weird concepts 23:50:49 eg haskell 23:51:01 AnMaster: 161 bits is enough for a second 23:51:16 so, 256 should be enough for everyone *ducks* 23:51:22 oerjan, right... 23:51:23 :D 23:51:54 > 2^256/1603000000000000157093599504886293773972613890048/86400/365.2425 23:51:56 2.289023853399056e21 23:52:02 err? 23:52:13 what are you calculating 23:52:19 number of years in 2^256 planck times 23:52:24 ah 23:52:27 quite a few 23:52:41 `wolfram number of years in 2^256 planck times 23:52:49 number of years in 2^256 planck times \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 115 792 089 237 316 195 423 570 985 008 687 907 853 269 984 665 640 564 039 457 584 007 913 129 639 936 Planck times to years \ Result: \ \ 1.98 1026 years \ Additional conversion: 33 \ \ 6.243 10 seconds \ \ Comparison as age: \ \ 1.4 1016 universe 23:52:56 um 23:53:04 not sure it interpreted it right 23:53:09 hm it doesn't seem to agree 23:53:10 but if it did, yeah enough for everyone 23:53:18 > 2^256 23:53:19 115792089237316195423570985008687907853269984665640564039457584007913129639... 23:53:30 oerjan, operator precedence? 23:53:46 > (0$0/) 23:53:47 The operator `GHC.Real./' [infixl 7] of a section 23:53:47 must have lower prec... 23:53:53 > (0$0*) 23:53:54 The operator `GHC.Num.*' [infixl 7] of a section 23:53:54 must have lower prece... 23:54:08 what? that looks strange 23:54:08 * and / are both left associative with the same precedence 23:54:15 oerjan, I meant ^ 23:54:28 > (0$0^) 23:54:29 The operator `GHC.Real.^' [infixr 8] of a section 23:54:30 must have lower prec... 23:54:41 ^ is higher, as expected 23:54:45 right 23:54:46 not that then 23:55:07 `wolfram 1 second in planck times 23:55:14 1 second in planck times \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 second to Planck times \ Result: \ \ 1.855 1043 Planck times \ Additional conversions: \ \ 1000 ms milliseconds \ Interpretation: \ \ time \ Corresponding quantities: \ \ Distance x traveled by light in a vacuum from x 186 282 miles 299 792 km kilometers 23:55:52 it doesn't agree with ehird above :) 23:56:05 ehm 23:56:10 note that `wolfram is broken. 23:56:15 it skips out formatting 23:56:17 > 2^256/1.855e43/86400/365.2425 23:56:18 1.9780621223712598e26 23:56:23 oerjan: 1.855 1043 = 1.855 x 10^43 23:56:24 on the site 23:56:31 the lesson is: don't use `wolfram 23:56:34 yes that is easy to decode 23:56:39 ehird: of course i can guess that, it's still not what you pasted above 23:56:45 w/e :P 23:56:57 ehird, the lesson is: bug GregorR to make it handle superscript 23:56:59 :P 23:57:12 the lesson is irc is not a browser. 23:57:37 the real lesson is that we will argue about what the real lesson is. 23:57:55 ehird: also, i was never confused about what w|a's answer meant, anyhow 23:59:04 `wolfram 2^256 > googolplex 23:59:07 anyway, that's quite a bit longer than the time since the big bang 23:59:08 $Failed \ \ 23:59:13 so false 23:59:16 or error? 23:59:18 `wolfram 2^256 < googolplex 23:59:19 error 23:59:22 $Failed \ \ 23:59:23 hm 23:59:27 oerjan, is it larger or not then 23:59:34 > 2^256 < 10^(10^100) 23:59:39 mueval-core: Prelude.read: no parse 23:59:40 mueval: ExitFailure 1 23:59:41 um 23:59:50 I think that is too large to write out 23:59:51 so yeah 23:59:53 probably 23:59:54 it is larger