00:00:19 yay... 32 KB/s update... 00:00:50 ooh, it's really picking up now, 56 KB/s 00:00:50 -!- ehird has set topic: I like big eths and I cannot lie, you other esolangers can't deny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:01:02 that's so fast, isn't it? ^_^ 00:01:13 Gracenotes: 700KB/s in your face bitch. 00:01:20 Gracenotes: 56 kilobytes per second is tolerable. 00:01:33 I miss my campus Internet connection, though. 00:01:39 10 megabits/sec. :D 00:01:40 now it's 64... now 67... now 1... 00:01:44 11, I mean. damn this is variable. 00:01:59 131072KB/s in your face bitch. 00:02:37 pikhq: Seriously? You can get 24mbit/s for, like, regular internet prices in the UK, as long as you don't live somewhere odd like me. 00:02:46 I do miss my campus connection too, it peaked at 800 KB/s, but better than this 00:03:00 And we even have fibre-optic 25/50mbit in some places. 00:03:04 ehird: Erm. Actually, I think that was s/bits/bytes/ 00:03:05 And Scandinavia has 100mbit up the wazoo. 00:03:21 Korea has 1Gbit, but I don't think servers are fast enough :P 00:03:24 And yes, seriously. You can hardly get 10mbit/s here. 00:03:33 meow 00:03:37 Some internet guy's grandma got 4Gbit as a promotional thingy to encourage companies to speed up the interwebs. 00:03:39 in sweden 00:03:52 pikhq: so you got ~80mbit 00:03:55 ~= 100mbit 00:03:55 Here in the US, that would be 50Mbit. 00:04:13 dude, 1586 software packages are going to be upgraded to 8.10 00:04:17 told you so 00:04:23 Gracenotes: That's… not a lot. 00:04:34 I need to download.. 1.7 GB. gawd :/ 00:04:39 pikhq: I conjecture that US technology sucks so much because you have a shitty economy. 00:04:44 Gracenotes: Peanuts. 00:04:56 on wireless it ain't 00:05:09 spoiled. 00:05:27 Gracenotes: n-draft, bitch. 00:05:32 100mbit/sec TCP/IP wireless. 00:05:42 Most wireless chips support it nowadays and routers are affordable. 00:05:46 *draft-n 00:05:50 not for me 00:06:00 Well, you suck. 00:06:04 plus, I think my ISP has it out for me ;_; 00:06:44 ALL TECHNOLOGY SUCKS 00:06:45 EVERYTHING SUCKS 00:07:10 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:07:11 FINALLY SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS ME 00:07:18 CUDDLE TEIM 00:07:22 * ehird CUDDLES 00:07:28 * Gracenotes CUDDLES 00:07:39 I WILL NOW SOLVE THE EVERYTHING PROBLEM BY ENSLAVING EVERYONE 00:07:45 AND FORCING THEM TO MAKE THINGS THAT DO NOT SUCK 00:08:10 let me see.. which video had I downloaded.. ah. Team America time 00:34:32 it's nice to only have one app at once 00:35:23 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:53:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:57:04 -!- Judofyr has joined. 00:57:11 [[Wrong again. It's an ancient Zionist symbol for "jew-gold".]] 01:01:23 I know of no context where that is *not* a blatantly antisemetic comment. 01:01:43 pikhq: When it's part of a reddit joke-thread. 01:01:56 http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/96vkn/inwe_trust_start_the_movement/c0bmz17 01:02:40 Ah. 01:03:22 It's also possible to oppose zionism but not jews, but obviously that comment wouldn't exactly fit that if it were serious. 01:04:51 -!- p4yn0 has joined. 01:04:55 hi all 01:05:02 Hello. 01:05:18 Who're you, where did you come from, and where am I? 01:05:40 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:05:46 who was the originator of the quote "wherever you go, there you are" 01:06:07 http://www.figmentfly.com/bb/popculture4.html 01:06:16 According to Danial M, "The quotation is much more ancient ... from around 1440 AD. You can find the following quote at http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/2006/002/14.73.html : "So, the cross is always ready and waits for you everywhere. You cannot escape it no matter where you run, for wherever you go you are burdened with yourself. Wherever you go, there you are." —Thomas a Kempis, Imitation of Christ, ca. A.D. 1440 01:06:29 jesus fucking christ. 01:06:42 or kempis imitating christ. 01:06:48 -!- p4yn0 has left (?). 01:07:01 Well, that guy wouldn't have lasted long anyway. 01:07:09 um, sorry for being offtopic and alienating him, or whatever happened 01:07:17 Sorry for being offtopic? 01:07:18 LOL 01:09:26 i certainly struck gold with that random question, seems like further scholarship is definitely needed 01:11:28 i wish i had the ability to be interested in utterly boring things :( 01:12:01 im interested in everything, sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective 01:12:23 `addquote [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective 01:12:25 58| [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective 01:12:51 :D 01:13:24 mycroftiv: can i take a guess at the secret to such interest? 01:13:28 the guess is "lots and lots of drugs" 01:13:49 (failing that, "insanity") 01:14:08 ehird: I have similar problems from time to time. 01:14:16 Problems?! 01:14:20 It sounds wonderful! 01:14:29 thats probably correct, its been a long time since 'the day' but i think i probably blew out (or woke up) some unusual synaptic structures duing the years 1990-97 or so 01:14:33 Well, for certain definitions of "problem". 01:14:44 ehird, 's called "autism". 01:15:06 It's called autism if you define autism to be not being able to get out of bed because the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective. 01:15:15 This would happen to be a definition without much precedent. 01:15:19 (much = any) 01:15:31 Just an aspect thereof. 01:15:38 Crap definition for it, though. 01:15:42 Fun fact: Autism makes you shit flowers, rainbows and a keen interest in stamps. 01:15:53 Also, you can fly. 01:15:57 Makes you shit a keen interest in stamps? 01:16:01 Impressive. 01:16:15 ehird: as for the 'you can fly' - google some disney movie called 'the boy who could fly' - PROVEN FACT! 01:16:24 pikhq: Yes. 01:16:46 mycroftiv: Hmm. That makes me want a smopes.com. 01:16:52 It's like snopes, but has bullshit instead. 01:18:00 downloaded 475 of 1866 packages 01:18:11 ..and the big ones haven't even come yet 01:18:12 installing kde5 from the future? 01:18:23 mycroftiv: No, he's upgrading from Ubuntu 8.04. 01:18:32 then another one after this 01:18:34 Because apparently homework stopped him taking an hour to upgrade to 8.10 or 9.04. 01:18:46 srsly. my sound. 01:18:57 Your mental issues. :P 01:19:06 …and that's saying something coming from me. 01:19:15 ugg, why try to inplace upgrade rather than do a clean install and transfer? isnt inplace upgrading both gonna take longer and (50%+ chance) bork your setup? 01:19:32 Er, no. 01:19:37 It generally works fine on Ubuntu. 01:19:45 i say this is a long time debian + ooboontoo user 01:19:47 well, it probably will bork my setup. 01:19:47 It's just that most in-place upgrades suck. 01:19:48 *as a 01:19:52 mycroftiv: wfm /shrug 01:20:18 clean install would probably take much longer with what I have 01:20:31 ehird: I still have trouble believing that most OSes can't do in-place upgrades. 01:20:46 A decent component system handles it trivially. 01:20:58 Not because I disbelieve that such OSes exist, but that I disbelieve that we're still in the freaking 80s. :P 01:21:02 Sometimes I think it should just deactivate all software that can't handle the new versions. 01:21:06 That'd speed up compatibility. 01:21:16 (You could, of course, manually activate the old version for certain programs.) 01:21:40 i guess everyone works out their own workflows, i always have about 4 bootable partitions per box, and when a new distro release comes out, i generally choose the oldest/least used partition, pull any data i want out of it, and install on top of that, leaving whatever my most used system pre-install untouched and just using/copying its data as needed 01:21:55 mycroftiv: I have yet to have a distro upgrade break for me. 01:22:01 ... I've been using Linux since 2002. 01:22:10 pikhq: i commend your administrative skills :) 01:22:18 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:22:35 And no, I don't switch distros often. 01:22:42 I've been using Gentoo since like 2004 or 2005. 01:22:56 Gentoo solves the X problem by making you do it all manually, forall X. :P 01:23:07 Along with Debian. 01:23:11 … 01:23:15 For some definitions of Debian. 01:23:17 i dont think so, gentoo has a ton of automation, its really nice, dont you think? 01:23:27 I hate Gentoo :P 01:23:32 stuff like eselect and so forth, i find gentoo easy to admin really 01:23:33 But I mostly hate source-based distros in general. 01:23:42 And I'm no fan of Gentoo users. 01:23:45 ehird: No, no. Just emerge -avuDN world && revdep-rebuild ;# et viola. 01:24:01 pikhq: Shaddup. 01:24:25 this is, of course, mah first distribution 01:24:42 My first distro was Slackware. 01:24:53 I suspect that's skewed most of my Linux usage. 01:25:02 towards the good 01:26:15 After that, I toyed with Red Hat (eeeeeewwwww), Debian (stable was t3h old then, not just old), and eventually settled into Gentoo on my desktop and Debian on anything I don't want to fuck with. 01:27:48 I like computers to do things for me. 01:28:13 Gentoo does things for me. 01:29:11 sort of. 01:29:26 Whaddya mean, sort of? 01:29:40 the userland you get from any gnu/linux distro is always going to be equivalent or whatever the user wants, i havent found any significant differences other than the details of the init scripts and package managers between distros 01:30:00 mycroftiv: Arch uses BSD init, which is nice. 01:30:06 I do not like SysV init. It is not kind to me. 01:30:18 even if you switch to BSD the userland you tend to build doesnt seem very different to me at least 01:30:19 ehird, Gentoo uses neither. 01:31:00 Unix is unix, so it is, so it sucks, but it's here and everyone who can do better — like, say, us — are sitting around on their asses doing nothing. 01:31:13 ehird: not true, im using and developing and releasing plan9 software 01:31:41 Well, actually, it uses SysV init, but only as a wrapper for /sbin/rc. 01:31:42 Plan 9 isn't even significantly better; it progresses the Unix paradigm, thus running into its limits, but this is not much of an improvement. 01:31:47 (to minimize breakage) 01:31:50 It just shows that, yes, it is a limited paradigm. 01:32:12 ehird: what about the 9p protocol and 9p fs interfaces as something entirely independent from plan9, despite having been developed as part of it? 01:32:41 It's a hierarchical filesystem. I don't like them. They are not kind to me and they are not all that useful, and there are far better things. 01:32:56 (Okay, they're related to hierarchical filesystems; whatever.) 01:33:32 ehird: It's the best we've got mostly because the alternative is a notable lack of paradigm. So, most people enter UNIX, are impressed that there *is* a paradigm, and dispute that it could even be changed for the better... 01:33:48 Combine with UNIX being good enough for most purposes, and you get 40 years of UNIX. 01:33:51 -!- augur has joined. 01:34:02 Yes, well, I rarely consider what other people want when dabbling in such things. 01:34:06 ehird 01:34:07 oi. 01:34:13 Hi. 01:34:28 ehird: hrmph, im not sure what you say really makes sense from a fundamentals perspective - the idea that you can say hierarchical filesystems and the general idea of file i/o as semantics for how you 'control your turing machine' seems a bit broad... 01:34:46 wat? 01:34:48 you say they are 'not all that useful' which doesnt seem to make sense 01:35:09 I just hate files as separate from objects, I hate disk as separate from memory, and I hate tree hierarchy. 01:35:34 Orthogonal persistence — FUCK YEAH. 01:35:54 Chuck in persistence of continuations and we've got some hot lovin' suspendable persistin' action. 01:36:03 ehird: ok, 9p actually i think addresses all of those concerns - it has the idea that 'objects == files' in its paradigm - it absolutely is designed to abstract away from disk vs. memory - and it doesnt impose a tree hierarchy, even 01:36:29 ehird: This is a very Smalltalkish way of doing things. 01:36:33 mycroftiv: 9P is basically RPC, so it's a leaky abstraction. Anyway. No. 01:36:42 9P still has plain text as the quantum. 01:36:52 I hate plain text for anything other than plain text. 01:36:56 what information cant be represented by plain text? none. 01:37:05 mycroftiv: OK, then. Why does C have any types other than char *? 01:37:22 ehird: well, in a way it doesnt! it offers semantic labeling and handling for convenience 01:37:29 It most certainly does, mycroftiv. 01:37:35 but as i surely dont need to explain to you, you get to cast anything to void... 01:37:51 recast as char, work with it that way...send it back, if itll fit...or maybe give you a nice crash... 01:37:58 You will only get internal representations. 01:38:03 That is not applicable to what I am talking about. 01:38:30 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:39:08 i admit you are probably a lot more expert on this than i am, im just a guy who tries to write software to do stuff using the abstractions that make the most sense to me 01:39:29 mycroftiv: As an aside, have you considered learning Haskell? 01:39:39 pikhq: yeah, thats kind of a slow moving ongoing project for me 01:39:44 Expert, mycroftiv? I'm just a deranged 13 year old. :P 01:39:54 But consider me flattered or something. 01:40:02 well, you talk a good game, at least 01:40:10 That's because I'm always right, duh. 01:40:34 Anyway, the best way to come to love rich persisted objects is via orthogonal persistence. 01:40:51 You never lose anything, when coding you never worry about losing anything, and it's truly a living environment of objects 01:40:52 s/$/./ 01:40:55 The idea is simple: 01:40:55 i love rich persisted objects, its exactly why i like plan9 and 9p :) 01:41:03 All of memory is continually persisted to disk. 01:41:10 Memory = cache for disk. 01:41:13 That's IT. 01:41:18 There's no filesystem. No files. 01:41:32 You have your runtime objects, and that's what you keep until you explicitly let go. 01:41:36 imagine theres no files...no filesystem too...you may say that im a dreamer...but im not the only one... 01:41:42 Precisely! 01:41:48 Lennon was a Smalltalker. 01:42:06 ehird: So, Smalltalk. 01:42:16 Yes, Smalltalk, dammit. :P 01:42:17 ehird: my opinion is that what you just described is exactly the plan9 and 9p design, with a merely semantic difference between the word 'object' and the word 'file' 01:42:22 Though I don't think Smalltalk persisted. 01:42:28 Way back then. 01:42:31 mycroftiv: Nononono, it's not. 01:42:37 Make a value in Plan 9's C. 01:42:37 Does these days. 01:42:41 You lose it if you have a crash. 01:42:45 You lose it if your program terminates. 01:42:59 You have to explicitly hook into the persistence mechanism and come up with a representation. 01:43:01 That's not it at all. 01:43:09 With orthogonal persistence, you just Use Objects Like That. 01:43:14 And they stay there. 01:43:24 ehird: aha! ok, we are speaking of different layers - i am absolutely not talking about the plan9 os/kernel layer, but the layer of the 9p fs itself! surely smalltalk objects arent persistent if you smash the hsot machine with a hammer or delete the software? 01:43:47 See, but orthogonal persistence IS OS layer. 01:44:01 It's ubiquitous, that's why it works. 01:44:06 i completely agree taht you need to fully push these principles down to all layers, and that plan9 does not do that 01:44:25 mycroftiv: Yes, and once you do that, you realise that you're persisting the rich objects and not a plain text representation of them. 01:44:41 And you realise that there's a reason we program with those rich semantics, and no reason not to persist like that too. 01:44:45 IMO at least 01:45:06 sorry, as a turing fundamentalist, i dont think there is a difference between 'rich objects' and 'plain text' - unless you have a physical OS that isnt using binary at the transistor level? 01:45:16 * Gracenotes awaits finally being able to install anki 01:45:30 anki fuck yeah 01:45:42 mycroftiv: Your argument reeks of "Brainfuck is just as good as Haskell because they're both turing complete". 01:45:51 Yes… technically. 01:45:57 But in practice, no, that's not how they match up. 01:46:11 no, i think im trying to stake out something much more limited, which is: 01:46:15 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:46:30 It's possible that we're agreeing but you're using awkward terminology. 01:46:31 "you cant critique 9p on the basis of the underlying OS any more than you can critique smalltalk on the basis of the physical hardware it runs on" 01:46:42 By plain text, I mean the kind of thing that you find on unix/plan 9 systems. 01:46:42 -!- coppro has joined. 01:46:49 Flat file, ad-hoc formats, pseudo-human-readable. 01:46:51 AWKwords 01:46:57 I don't mean binary representations of objects, which is what I prefer. 01:47:01 Yes, they're both bits, technically. 01:47:04 But the paradigm is different. 01:47:23 but thats just like 'machine storage'! a rich object is always going to be what you get at the 'content layer' after you WORK WITH whatever your basic raw storage format is! thats what plaintext is, its just like binary at the machine level 01:47:31 i think you are making a layer confusion in your thinking 01:47:36 "after you WORK WITH whatever your basic raw storage format is" 01:47:38 See! 01:47:45 With orthogonal persistence there is no format. 01:47:57 What you clunk to disk is what you use. 01:48:00 so your physical chips liquify and dont use binary? 01:48:20 .........................whut 01:48:34 ehird: There is one thing that makes me vomit about this: the data should be independent of the programs. I am not sure how you would pull that off. 01:48:46 pikhq: Why on earth should it be? 01:48:49 look, you dont have a problem with having your rich objects stored in binary in the physical memory right?" 01:48:52 Objects have methods ;-) 01:48:59 ehird: I kill you. 01:49:06 pikhq: Smalltalk, bitch. 01:49:13 ehird: I kill you. 01:49:19 pikhq: what do you mean independent of the programs? 01:49:22 pikhq: Again? 01:49:27 augur: plz read ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ 01:49:28 ehird: Yes. 01:49:35 so if you are OK with binary storage of objects at the physical layer, and the microcode/firmware or whatever you call it translating your smalltalk into those operations 01:49:37 mycroftiv: I really think you're pulling at straws here 01:49:38 explain what you mean by that. 01:49:56 augur: file "foo.mp3" can be handled by any program I have on my hard drive that is willing to read a file. 01:50:00 why isnt it ok for there to be a layer that works with data as plaintext, as an intermediate stage between binary and the rich objects? 01:50:02 (though not all programs will make sense of it) 01:50:04 oh i see 01:50:10 you mean non-proprietary formats, essentially. 01:50:13 … 01:50:15 what, augur? 01:50:22 ... What? 01:50:30 what what 01:50:49 You fail at reading comprehension. Epicly. 01:50:52 ehird: can you network with these rich objects? if you send them via ethernet framing, does the fact that they become binary/plaintext during transmission across the network destroy them somehow? 01:50:53 uh 01:50:59 "augur: file "foo.mp3" can be handled by any program I have on my hard drive that is willing to read a file." 01:51:00 mycroftiv: That would work, sure… but it's also kind of a silly step and will just use more disk. Also, the fact is that in 9P, you address objects with paths — which is not how you address them in an object system (e.g. "self users at: 3" is not /users/3) 01:51:17 So, Unix and 9P's model is not just "making objects plaintext before bunking them to disk". 01:51:29 (That would work → plaintext intermediatry) 01:51:34 unless you mean "handled by a text editor", i take this to mean "handled by anything that plays music because they all play mp3s" 01:52:02 augur: Handled by anything that handles files in general. 01:52:09 ok. handled in what sense? 01:52:11 ehird: hm, in a very important sense I think 'making objects plaintext for convenience while reading/writing them' is absolutely the essence of unix design 01:52:23 cat foo.mp3 ;# that's handling it. 01:52:26 Not usefully, but it is. 01:52:30 and that in no sense is unix attempting to prevent you from creating higher level systematic abstractions that have nothing to do with plaintext 01:52:33 mycroftiv: That's not a convenience, it's just pointless. 01:52:38 In a decent object system. 01:52:51 Not Unix's shambles of assorted binary blobs operating in low-level languages. 01:52:55 right, ok, but im pretty sure that thats essentially possible regardless. ignoring the fact that certain programs have certain expectations of file contents. 01:53:17 mycroftiv: Anyway, "while reading/writing them" 01:53:22 With orthogonal persistence, you don't see that. 01:53:26 You modify the object, it's modified on disk. 01:53:30 The OS does it, you never notice. 01:53:37 There is no reading or writing, there is just "is". 01:56:20 ObjectivistOs? Is == IS? a == a? 01:56:45 Lawl. 01:57:01 I mean "there is just 'is'" as in the objects are just there, except there implies them being in a place. 01:57:11 So I just said is; they exist. 01:59:35 all im saying is, there is a real and messy world of wires and circuits and binary bits that has to be brought into compliance with the abstractions you create. I dont see how you can escape, at some layer, having to work with things in the semantics that the wires/spec imposes on you. thats all. 02:01:30 the unix plaintext abstaction was created to meet the practical needs of how you build a system where the user can interact with rich objects and the wires and magnetic bits can stay synchronized with that. it is certainly not perfect, and could be much improved - but i think unix plaintext handling exists at the 'dealing with hardware' layer more than the 'telling you what abstractions to use' layer. 02:04:41 I disagree because I see code handling this supposedly low-level "abstraction" all the time. 02:04:43 In applications. 02:04:47 Even Plan 9 ones. 02:04:48 oh i totally agree 02:05:03 I really think you're underestimating the culture of making your own shitty ad-hoc plain text formats and putting them in your own ad-hoc locations. 02:05:09 i never said the work of creating the 'ladder of abstractions' and making systems be consistent was complete! 02:05:31 :P 02:06:01 ehird: i think you are confusing me with a defender of traditional unix...i think you are making the mistake of confusing something that is a progressive step in the evolutionary process with something that is an obstacle 02:06:26 I'm not sure Plan 9 can go further, but we'll see. My other beef with it is that it keeps the outdated notion of an "application"; a 70s-era exposure of kernel structurse. 02:06:27 *structures 02:06:31 Fun talking, anyway. I've got to go sleep now. I know people on IRC generally don't do that. 02:06:35 -!- ehird has quit. 02:06:57 good night 02:07:09 mycroftiv 02:07:14 i think to understand ehird 02:07:20 think of it like this 02:07:30 objects exist in memory during runtime right? 02:07:56 sure - i think i understand his ideas about breaking down the traditional 'hardware based' abstractions, absolutely 02:08:33 ok. the stuff in memory during runtime is whatever "format" a running object has 02:08:34 yes? 02:09:10 hm, not completely sure if you are talking about the abstract type as defined by the language/compiler etc or the machine representation as transistor bits/logic, but sure 02:09:20 whatever is in ram 02:09:23 or cache 02:09:55 at one layer, it is logical strucutre - at another layer, its physical charge 02:10:05 they can be mapped onto each other precisely, of course 02:10:06 in a smalltalk like system, the act of saving a file, or anything actually, amounts to nothing more than copying the memory content to the harddrive. 02:10:14 yup, i know this, absolutely 02:10:19 it doesnt involve encoding it into a special format for "representing" the object 02:10:26 ok, wait, not true 02:10:26 its just a raw binary dump to the harddrive. 02:10:41 you still have a ton of lower level firmware type stuff going on 02:10:51 but thats not part of the objects in question. 02:11:06 and neither is the unix plaintext representation of data part of the 'objects' as dealt with by application software 02:11:13 two different layers of the abstraction 02:11:38 right, except that the plaintext representations of data are /representations of data/ 02:11:56 the low level firmware and os driver control of a hard drive are also representations of data 02:12:01 as opposed to the raw data itself, that would normally exist in memory when the computer is processing it 02:12:12 yes but different data. 02:12:40 a larger set of data, but the 'content data' is still a subset thereof 02:13:18 if you can talk about small talk and 'abstract away' from the os drivers for the hard drive and its firmware - you can talk about unix software and its semantics and extract away from the unix os handling of the data before sending it to the disk 02:14:01 if you can send data over a network without the fact that it was encapsulated via tcp/ip somehow 'contaminating it' at the application layer - you can do the same with an os's representation of data and its software 02:14:31 there is no way you can escape from the particularities of the hard work of handling your hardware and formats - you just build tools that let you work as a programmer and user at layers of abstraction beyond that 02:14:48 if smalltalk exists as smalltalk regardlesss of the hardware platform 02:15:25 then you can certainly create whatever kind of environment you want as a set of abstractions on top of any os that gives you the ability to create a working implementation 02:16:44 so thats why i keep saying i think this is a 'layer confusion' where you are expecting that a lower layer should conform to the semantics and syntax of a higher layer - where you cant actually do that, unless you make your chips out of ideas rather than transistors 02:18:02 its great if you can make your layers as transparent and consistent as possible, and we definitely can evolve much further in that direction 02:19:56 but the fact that we have to store our data fundamentally as electrical charges, and stuff it through networking protocols, and read it from disks using various hardware bus interface specifications - these are annoyances, but they are just the 'accidental material' of creating things, just as the marble is not the sculpture 02:23:25 that being said - i understand that *plastic* was created because marble is hard to work with, and having something easier to shape is valuable - and ehird is talking about increasing the *plasticity* of data and how we work with it 02:23:51 which i 100% agree with and support 02:51:54 -!- Judofyr has quit ("raise Hand, 'wave'"). 04:37:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 04:39:23 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 05:25:40 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:47:13 -!- coppro has joined. 05:53:09 -!- vijay_ has joined. 05:55:51 -!- vijay_ has left (?). 06:06:09 my packages be be downloadin' 06:07:01 ..still 07:54:44 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:48:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:57:46 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:09:26 -!- immibis has joined. 09:23:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:28:16 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:36:02 -!- immibis has quit ("ASCII a stupid question, get a stupid ANSI!"). 09:58:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:01:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:02:20 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:25:03 -!- fizziew has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:32:48 Heh, I had completely forgotten about that thing. 11:04:04 my packages be installin' 11:07:01 good luck 11:07:18 Soon your packages be explodin'. 11:08:37 the 2 day forecast was not so unrealistic 11:28:24 -!- HackEgo has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:28:24 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:28:24 -!- evenant has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:28:24 -!- rodgort has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:29:03 -!- HackEgo has joined. 11:29:03 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 11:29:03 -!- evenant has joined. 11:29:03 -!- rodgort has joined. 11:46:29 -!- zzo38 has joined. 11:46:44 Is this a proper beer program?: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/InfChessPro#Examples 11:48:10 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 11:48:12 I also work on a new paper RPG system, Icosahedral RPG, but some things still I didn't figure it out yet, what should be the rules for multiplying a spell by another spell (or itself)? 11:51:56 -!- HackEgo has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:51:56 -!- evenant has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:51:56 -!- rodgort has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:51:56 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:52:29 -!- ski__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:52:31 -!- ski__ has joined. 11:52:54 -!- HackEgo has joined. 11:52:54 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 11:52:54 -!- evenant has joined. 11:52:54 -!- rodgort has joined. 11:54:42 O, what's this mistake 11:56:36 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:04:46 -!- ehird has joined. 12:15:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:28:28 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 12:33:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:34:07 * Sgeo has corpses in his kitchen 12:35:40 (fly corpses) 12:35:51 O! 12:36:19 What doesn't kill you, makes you hard of hearing. 12:37:22 Is this a proper beer program?: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/InfChessPro#Examples 12:37:29 I also work on a new paper RPG system, Icosahedral RPG, but some things still I didn't figure it out yet, what should be the rules for multiplying a spell by another spell (or itself)? 12:38:49 What people would put all the blood in a bowl and then throw all of the cigarettes in the same bowl? 12:46:34 …what? 12:47:30 That was in Akagi manga book. 12:47:34 I had blood on my hands that may or may not have been mine (was probably mine) 12:49:44 (I killed a mosquito by accident. It had just bitten me) 12:50:21 -!- HackEgo has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:50:21 -!- evenant has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:50:21 -!- rodgort has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:50:21 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:50:36 I have heard that only female mosquitoes bite you. 12:52:22 -!- HackEgo has joined. 12:52:22 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 12:52:22 -!- evenant has joined. 12:52:22 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:52:42 -!- Pthing has joined. 12:53:37 Why is all QUIT and JOIN a lot in a past few minutes? 12:54:07 -!- HackEgo has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:54:07 -!- evenant has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:54:07 -!- rodgort has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:54:08 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:55:57 -!- fizzie has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:56:10 -!- HackEgo has joined. 12:56:10 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 12:56:10 -!- evenant has joined. 12:56:10 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:56:11 -!- fizzie has joined. 13:03:32 -!- Asztal has joined. 13:06:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:09:46 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 13:11:24 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:11:26 WHY IS FIREFOX ON 8.10 SO SLOW 13:11:50 * Gracenotes beats his graphics card into pulpy submission 13:13:14 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 13:24:06 WHY IS FIREFOX SO SLOW ON THIS PENTIUM III? 13:26:40 Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous lagging, or to take arms against a sea of graphics cards, and by opposing make them effing work? 13:27:04 * ehird gives Gracenotes $15bux 13:27:08 get a nvidia card 13:31:43 * Sgeo has a nvidia card. It sucks 13:32:42 afaik it's a 8.10 thing 13:35:23 Sgeo: you suck 13:35:56 ehird, do you know of a site like imgur, but for audio? 13:36:05 filebin.ca 13:36:24 ty, as soon as Firefox regains sanity 13:36:43 wikimedia commons. if you freely license it. and prove its encyclopedic worth. 13:36:50 DO IT 13:36:50 * Sgeo doesn't want reddit hitting diagonalfish 13:36:58 Gracenotes, there is no encyclopedic worth 13:37:21 you must thrust encyclopedic worth into it 13:37:55 Sgeo: to think that reddit will hit anything you submit is statistically nonsensical 13:38:13 Sgeo: anyway, filebin will cause a download. 13:38:21 tindeck if you want a player; must be freely licensed. 13:39:38 Somehow, I doubt that people will want to redistribute this 13:40:28 Sgeo: Reddit will absolutely not hit something they have to save and open. 13:40:42 In conclusion, self-defeating prophecy.\ 13:40:45 s/\\$// 13:41:18 I think you mean self-fulfilling. 13:41:35 * Sgeo sounds stupid 13:41:37 >.> 13:42:04 Slereah_: no 13:42:05 self-defeating 13:42:08 * Sgeo reconsiders doing anything with this at this point 13:42:09 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/unknownsongs.wav 13:42:54 Is /r/self an appropriate place to ask for information like what songs the unknown songs are? 13:42:57 Things like that? 13:43:03 Uhhh, no. 13:43:25 Wow my ears just cringed listening to that. I didn't know that was possible. 13:45:58 hard crowd today, eh 13:46:20 you bet bitches 13:46:48