00:03:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
00:23:44 -!- olsner_ has changed nick to olsner.
00:45:01 <ehird> mycroftiv: http://msm.grumpybumpers.com/?p=20 quantum mario darwinism
00:56:47 -!- GregorR_ has joined.
01:01:24 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
01:17:19 -!- GregorR has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
01:22:31 -!- GregorR_ has changed nick to GregorR.
01:31:15 <ehird> GregorR: Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
01:32:02 <pikhq> ehird: psl {[ "Hello, world!" print ]}
01:32:30 <ehird> pikhq: I'd retort in K, but I'm not even sure it has a convenient function for printing to stdout.
01:32:37 <ehird> (`show $ "Hello, world!"). :P
01:32:54 <GregorR> System.out.println("Hello, world!");
01:33:14 <GregorR> class Main { public static void main(String[] args) { System.out.println("Hello, world!"); } }
01:33:28 <ehird> (insert the enum/static initialiser short java hello world here)
01:33:30 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
01:33:47 <ehird> "Hello, world!" could count as a k hello world, I guess.
01:33:57 <pikhq> {print "Hello, world!"} /* Awk */
01:41:11 -!- Sneezle has quit ("good night, have fun o/").
01:59:31 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
02:12:25 -!- ehird has quit.
02:34:32 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
02:42:10 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
04:21:18 <Warrigal_> Would it be feasible to come up with a class of theorem provers known as "first-order-logic-complete" or something, where for every pair of theorem provers X and Y within the class, there is a proof in X that if X is consistent then Y is consistent?
04:23:50 <Warrigal_> And come up with a class of theorem provers that prove each other as consistent as themselves.
04:24:16 <Warrigal_> In order for any of them to be flawed, every single one of them would have to be flawed.
04:28:18 <pikhq> oerjan: Generational garbage collector.
04:28:28 <pikhq> GregorR: Segmentation fault? BEST KIND!
04:28:45 <GregorR> Actually that was more-or-less intentional.
04:28:49 <oerjan> everyone their own type of fault
04:43:04 <pikhq> GregorR: I hate to make you feel derivative, but: http://www.crummy.com/features/dada/
04:43:46 <GregorR> I don't recall claiming that my randomizer was unique.
04:43:53 <oerjan> well to stop feeling derivative, he'll just have to integrate the new knowledge
04:50:45 <GregorR> pikhq: Besides, we're still keeping it in the Richards.* family.
04:51:56 <pikhq> GregorR: I didn't know family names were regular expressions.
04:52:08 <GregorR> Richards is just a contraction of Richardson :P
04:52:57 <pikhq> Or else I shall insist your father was named "Richard", and that your son will be a Gregorson.
04:54:34 <oerjan> clearly it's short for richardsaurus
05:25:09 -!- Asztal has joined.
05:47:10 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
07:00:21 -!- asiekierka has joined.
07:00:29 <asiekierka> I made a working BF interpreter in GMod :D
07:14:59 -!- FireFly has joined.
07:56:05 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended).
08:00:00 -!- clog has joined.
08:05:55 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
08:15:29 -!- Deewiant has quit (Remote closed the connection).
08:15:55 -!- Deewiant has joined.
09:00:00 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Remote closed the connection).
09:01:23 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
09:13:44 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
09:15:15 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving").
09:15:26 -!- lifthrasiir has joined.
09:42:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
10:03:07 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
10:49:34 <asiekierka> http://asiekierka.boot-land.net/computah.html - oh my god this is the worst podcast on the planet earth
10:55:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
11:15:55 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined.
11:17:54 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Nick collision from services.).
11:17:57 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes.
11:36:26 -!- andi_ has joined.
11:55:44 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
12:15:29 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined.
12:17:15 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Nick collision from services.).
12:17:21 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes.
12:25:44 -!- nooga has joined.
12:43:14 -!- Sgeo has joined.
13:03:54 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:30:58 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
13:42:33 -!- Asztal has joined.
13:49:28 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
14:03:41 -!- Sgeo has joined.
14:38:04 -!- jix has joined.
14:48:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:49:18 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:50:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
14:52:29 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)).
14:52:57 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
14:54:00 <Sgeo> Ok, just made the symlink. Restarting X-Chat. Wish me luck.
14:54:29 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving").
14:58:21 -!- Sgeo has joined.
15:09:59 -!- andi_ has quit (Connection timed out).
15:10:40 -!- andi_ has joined.
15:23:41 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined.
15:23:54 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
15:24:03 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Nick collision from services.).
15:24:22 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes.
15:32:21 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.1.2/20090801173140]").
15:42:17 <AnMaster> for cfunge with non-empty environment
16:02:15 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
16:02:26 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
16:07:28 <Sgeo> Hm, I should make a language where there literally is only one way to do things.
16:07:32 <Sgeo> Probably won't be TC
16:08:00 -!- andi_ has quit (Connection timed out).
16:08:37 -!- andi_ has joined.
16:09:23 <asiekierka> What esolang to implement in gmod now? :(
16:10:48 <Sgeo> How do you implement an esolang in a game?
16:10:53 <Sgeo> asiekierka, it came from some place
16:11:04 <asiekierka> an addon to GMod that allows you to do programming and stuff
16:13:51 <Sgeo> The site that I got the idea from is down
16:14:09 <Sgeo> It was some insane POS about designing a language
16:14:28 <Sgeo> One of the things was that doing something should be done in character-identical ways
16:15:06 <asiekierka> I can't believe you could do complex programs with only one way in it
16:15:17 <Sgeo> Probably not going to have loops
16:15:26 <Sgeo> I'm thinking how arithmatic would be done
16:15:32 <Sgeo> Parenthesis would be required
16:15:55 <Sgeo> asiekierka, but then you could print 1\n1 by either printing 1\n1 or looping
16:16:09 <asiekierka> So don't allow to print more than 1 char at once
16:16:46 <Sgeo> I was thinking maybe only being able to use a statement once at each level
16:16:57 <Sgeo> Not having loops would be easier
16:17:13 <Sgeo> Now, how do I deal with the possibility of an if True: equivalent?
16:18:14 <Sgeo> There are 26 variables, a-z. Variables have to be declared in order
16:18:27 <Sgeo> That is, var b = 1 is wrong if it's the first line, since it needs to be a
16:18:35 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
16:18:59 <MigoMipo> Sgeo: Would a big finite-size decision tree work?
16:19:24 <MigoMipo> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_tree
16:20:04 <MigoMipo> Could that be made to simulate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_that_always_halts ?
16:20:34 <Sgeo> Decision trees always halt unless they loop back on themselves
16:24:51 <Sgeo> I don't see a good way to allow arithmatic
16:25:50 <Sgeo> Variables could be either static or dynamic. Only dynamic variables can be used in arithmatic
16:25:55 <Sgeo> var a = get_num();
16:26:07 <Sgeo> Because it comes from user input.
16:26:21 <Sgeo> Maybe I should allow infinite memory
16:26:28 <Sgeo> v[0] = get_num();
16:27:03 <Sgeo> Once a variable is assigned, it must be used before it is reassigned. Or maybe it can't be reassigned.
16:29:49 <Sgeo> * Sgeo is trying to design a programming language where there is exactly one way to do what's needed. No more
16:29:49 <Sgeo> <Spi_Waterwing> Sgeo: binary?
16:30:37 <pikhq> Arithmetic is easy to do with a machine that always halts. Stack machine FTW.
16:30:37 <Sgeo> http://codepad.org/kQMoVbEU
16:31:09 <pikhq> Making said machine do more than arithmetic while still always halting is a bit more involved. ;)
16:42:55 -!- oerjan has joined.
16:45:16 <Sgeo> oerjan, read logs?
16:45:30 <Sgeo> Oh, and no static variables, come to think of it
16:47:30 <oerjan> <Sgeo> Probably won't be TC <-- indeed, probably would violate the undecidability of equivalent programs
16:48:22 <Sgeo> I was talking about it on another channel, and they said I'll fail, because if it's TC (I never said I wanted it to be TC), then there will always be another way, even if it's implementing a turing machine
16:49:17 <oerjan> yes, take two turing machines that are equivalent but not provably so, and translate them both
16:51:23 <pikhq> It's pretty obvious that it's not going to be TC. It's not clear whether or not this will be useful at all.
16:51:35 <Sgeo> pikhq, it's an esolang, how useful can it be?
16:52:01 <Sgeo> I have a feeling that it could be interesting, but I'll mangle it.
16:52:42 <oerjan> if you had two subprograms, they could never be switchable so at a minimum subprograms would have to interfer with each other in a destructive way
16:53:16 <oerjan> assuming sequential commands apply
16:53:55 <Sgeo> You mean, do one thing, then do another, entirely separate thing?
16:54:19 <Sgeo> THat's blocked by the uninteresting requirement that variables be assigned in incrementing order
16:54:30 <Sgeo> So you have to assign to v[5] before you can assign to v[6]
16:54:47 <Sgeo> ...I think I misunderstood you
16:54:58 <oerjan> not really, that does sound like a way
16:55:08 <oerjan> however what about switching + renaming?
16:56:35 <Sgeo> Either there will be no multiplication, or no loops that depend on a variable.
16:57:02 <Sgeo> Otherwise, there's two ways to multiply
16:58:52 <Sgeo> I'm not sure I understand why switching is a problem? Or is that why you said duh?
16:59:29 <oerjan> switching would be a problem if you could do it...
17:00:01 <Sgeo> What do you mean by switching?
17:00:08 <oerjan> now a second problem. if two variables can have the same value then you get two ways of referring to that value later
17:00:35 <Sgeo> Variables can only store user-input. So they may have the same value, or may not.
17:00:42 <Sgeo> Although if we have ifs...
17:00:51 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:01:02 <oerjan> Sgeo: A B C D -> A C B D, where B and C don't interfer
17:01:51 -!- ehird has joined.
17:01:58 <Sgeo> oerjan, isn't that only a problem if B and C don't get user-input or output stuff?
17:02:17 <Sgeo> Otherwise, the program will do something different either way, assuming variables are renamed
17:02:52 <oerjan> Sgeo: so your program sort of depends on _every_ command doing I/O?
17:03:28 <Sgeo> No, but I think we might require every variable to be present in output somehow, to prevent no-ops
17:03:32 <pikhq> So, doing everything in the IO monad, and no recursion?
17:04:23 <Sgeo> Yeah, um, the switching thing:
17:05:22 <Sgeo> Um, was about to post an example, but can't figure it out
17:05:59 <Sgeo> Let's pretend $ is a mathematical operator
17:07:33 <Sgeo> http://codepad.org/BTDu67gy
17:07:44 <Sgeo> How do we stop both from being valid?
17:09:42 -!- andi___ has joined.
17:10:30 <ehird> 08:29:49 <Sgeo> * Sgeo is trying to design a programming language where there is exactly one way to do what's needed. No more
17:10:53 <ehird> It has to be MASSIVELY sub-turing to be possible.
17:11:05 -!- andi_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
17:11:06 <Sgeo> ehird, what esolang isn't useless?
17:11:12 <ehird> I don't think you understand.
17:11:18 <ehird> That arithmetic? Forget about it.
17:11:42 <oerjan> hm you probably could do an FSA that way
17:12:09 <pikhq> Well, it may have a form of arithmetic. ... Actually, the only arithmetic possible is useless.
17:12:17 <pikhq> Like, incrementing without decrementing useless.
17:12:22 <ehird> i'm pretty sure peano arithmetic is impossible to make unique
17:12:37 <ehird> consider + 2 then + 2 instead of + 4
17:12:44 -!- GregorR-L has joined.
17:13:14 <pikhq> Sgeo: Your language is going to be less powerful than HQ9+.
17:13:19 <Sgeo> Constants can't be used in arithmetic expressions, only variables.
17:13:31 <Sgeo> And variables need to get their values from user-input
17:13:46 <ehird> pikhq: Yes; you'd have to remove the +.
17:13:59 <Sgeo> Well, actually, wait, constants can be used, maybe
17:14:02 <ehird> http://codepad.org/kQMoVbEU
17:14:04 <ehird> v[2] isn't from user input.
17:14:16 <ehird> Sgeo: just give up, it's impossible
17:14:24 <Sgeo> User-input or derived from user-input
17:14:27 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:14:42 -!- ehird has joined.
17:14:45 -!- ehird has left (?).
17:14:53 <AnMaster> Sgeo, it is impossible, without being stupidly sub-turing
17:15:00 -!- ehird has joined.
17:15:56 <ehird> 09:14:24 <Sgeo> User-input or derived from user-input
17:16:02 <ehird> you have fallen in to my trap
17:16:16 <ehird> v[2]=v[1]+2;v[3]=v[2]+2;print(v[3])
17:16:25 <ehird> v[3]=v[1]+4;print(v[3])
17:18:01 <Sgeo> hm (btw that's syntactically incorrect, but I see the point)
17:20:52 <Sgeo> ...I don't know how to work around that
17:21:07 <Sgeo> I mean, without forbidding constants in variable assignments
17:21:17 <ehird> Congratulations, you have figured out that it's impossible to do the impossible.
17:21:19 <Sgeo> And if we did that, .. um, actually
17:21:21 <ehird> What's your next breakthrough? :P
17:21:48 <Sgeo> Actually, I see a way around it, I think
17:22:11 <Sgeo> Only one addition operation per user-input, type of thing
17:22:22 * Sgeo is watching a video right now, so not fully focused on this
17:23:36 <ehird> Sgeo: please stop, you're embarrassing yourself with a tarpit
17:23:42 <ehird> futher and further
17:23:54 <ehird> the turing ones hang out on top, you're digging towards the ground underneath
17:24:13 <Sgeo> One addition of a constant, I meant
17:24:21 <AnMaster> I thought this was sub-surface already
17:24:30 <ehird> AnMaster: yes, it is infinitely thin.
17:24:34 <ehird> as soon as you go beneath the top, you hit the ground
17:24:36 <Sgeo> Although adding and subtracting a variable would be problematic
17:24:51 <ehird> Sgeo: Why are you doing this? It's. Impossible.
17:31:09 <pikhq> ehird: He's planning to dine at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe, I bet.
17:31:44 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9byek/interview_with_developers_of_menuetos_an_os/c0c706x / wonderful juxtaposition here from losethos
17:31:52 <ehird> (the topic being menuetos)
17:33:41 <pikhq> ehird: The Menuet OS guys seem quite a bit more sane.
17:33:52 <ehird> that was rather the point of the thread i linked
17:34:11 <pikhq> They're just pointless and silly. Losethos is... Crazy.
17:34:19 <pikhq> Like, the embodiment of crazy.
17:34:27 <ehird> methinks you didn't click my link
17:34:57 <pikhq> "It is definitely a battle between these guys and the Losethos guy for who is the most insane"
17:35:14 <ehird> ...and the reply after it...
17:35:44 <Sgeo> Maybe it's a joke?
17:35:56 <ehird> i've researched this
17:36:01 <ehird> losethos is very much mentally insane
17:36:04 <pikhq> No, Losethos is the Time Cube of OS development.
17:36:15 <ehird> at least gene ray is an isolate
17:36:19 <Sgeo> I want to believe!
17:36:26 <Sgeo> I want to believe that it's just a joke!
17:37:29 <ehird> sort(1) doesn't have a --random option, ugh
17:38:33 <ehird> "Just attempting to figure out the inconsistencies behind jailbreak=ok, break a GPL license=no-ok."
17:38:37 <ehird> must not reply to idiots
17:38:39 <ehird> must not reply to idiots
17:39:07 <AnMaster> the menuetos page fails to load
17:40:21 <pikhq> AnMaster: It's getting Reddit'd and Slashdotted.
17:42:49 <AnMaster> pikhq, btw, found out why syngergy disables key repeat: for the same reason as x11vnc
17:43:01 <AnMaster> key up and key down events can be delayed a lot
17:43:10 <AnMaster> ehird, we discussed it a few days ago
17:43:58 <AnMaster> pikhq, anyway, key repeat is done locally on the system that the input is connected to, so it will still work, just not at the local console
17:44:07 <AnMaster> but it prevents spurious repeats
17:45:41 <AnMaster> pikhq, because key down = send key down message, key up = send key up
17:45:54 <AnMaster> because, that would break some programs
17:46:03 <AnMaster> like games, where you want to hold down arrow key or such
17:56:47 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
17:56:51 -!- puzzlet has joined.
18:02:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
18:04:47 -!- Sgeo has joined.
18:07:57 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
18:10:03 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving").
18:12:55 -!- nooga has joined.
18:17:41 <nooga> weird linker error
18:18:02 <nooga> "vtable for Class", referenced from:
18:18:14 -!- kar8nga has joined.
18:29:22 <ehird> AnMaster: any sun in sweden
18:29:44 <FireFly> Or, well, I guess they spell it Sun
18:29:52 <AnMaster> ehird, been sunny today, but have been busy with the course all day. Didn't test
18:30:04 <AnMaster> seemed to work ok close to a window though
18:30:12 <ehird> what i'm reading seems to suggest that direct daylight will make it unreadable
18:30:37 <AnMaster> ehird, possibly, anything but brightest was hard to read in direct light through window
18:31:21 <AnMaster> ehird, though, the window was slightly shaded
18:31:42 <ehird> brightest backlight through a shaded window just barely works
18:31:43 <FireFly> What's AnMaster supposed to do with the sun?
18:31:43 <AnMaster> ehird, but as I said, didn't have time to test it outside, and the sun is hidden by some hills now
18:31:46 <ehird> sounds like it'll work great!
18:31:51 <AnMaster> FireFly, install solaris on it
18:31:51 <ehird> FireFly: try the display from the ThinkPads on them
18:31:57 <ehird> since it's the same as the one that I want to get
18:32:03 <AnMaster> ehird, my guess is it won't work
18:32:04 <ehird> what i've read suggests it won't work well outside.
18:32:14 <ehird> AnMaster: annoyingly, I found a leaked lenovo roadmap
18:32:34 <ehird> X201 is coming out jan next year
18:32:46 <ehird> i don't care about the hardware - core 2 at 2.4ghz is fine for me -
18:32:50 <ehird> and i don't want to wait until then -
18:32:57 <ehird> but dammit, if it has a better screen!
18:33:08 <ehird> I hope that it uses the same connectors
18:33:12 <ehird> then, I can get a replacement screen for the X201
18:33:15 <ehird> and put it in my X200
18:33:48 <ehird> that would be highly kickass
18:34:42 <ehird> yes. people break displays all the time.
18:35:15 <ehird> I know that someone did a display replacement to one of the current X-series, that involved breaking the bezel
18:35:22 <ehird> but iirc the model he replaced it with differed a bit
18:35:33 <ehird> but then I've read the X200 and X200s connectors differ
18:35:43 <ehird> AnMaster: google it.
18:36:09 <AnMaster> ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezel_setting ?
18:36:38 <ehird> the border surrounding the screen
18:36:59 <ehird> but I'll pretty much buy it now if it'll be possible to make the screen better later, in any way
18:37:04 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you say you could get it with a LCD or something
18:37:12 <AnMaster> that wasn't the normal TFT type
18:37:12 <ehird> as opposed to what, a CRT?
18:37:17 <ehird> you mean LED backlight.
18:37:23 <ehird> that's on the X200s. though it seems not to have it any more
18:37:34 <ehird> X200s = thinner, lighter, longer battery... 1.4ghz low voltage processors.
18:37:43 <AnMaster> <ehird> i don't care about the hardware - core 2 at 2.4ghz is fine for me -
18:38:01 <ehird> Low-voltage 1.4ghz is stunningly slow.
18:38:20 <ehird> Well, it's probably about as fast or faster than 800mhz arm.
18:38:25 <ehird> After all, it's dual-core.
18:38:26 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway, what does the X200 has
18:38:34 <ehird> Core 2 Duo 2.4ghz, normal voltage.
18:38:36 <ehird> And I have no idea.
18:38:42 <ehird> All I know is: X201, January 2010.
18:38:53 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you know it will have a better display then
18:39:02 <ehird> I just hoped it did.
18:40:09 <ehird> But, as for the processor: I believe it would be annoyingly slow, I don't need the extra thinness, I only want the extra lightness a little, and I don't really need more than 9 hours of battery life, plus, I want to _upgrade_ from my current machine.
18:40:14 <ehird> (since I'll be using it instead of.)
18:40:25 <ehird> (20 inch to 12 inch display, woohoo)
18:40:36 <AnMaster> ehird, that seems like a downgrade
18:40:53 <ehird> It's a more powerful computer that I can use anywhere.
18:41:02 <ehird> I'll just use a tiling window manager.
18:41:28 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but a desktop is still nice. When doing a lot of work.
18:42:08 <AnMaster> ehird, where you need a large screen
18:42:10 <ehird> AnMaster: it's not like old 12" 4:3 laptops that were 1280x768
18:42:15 <ehird> I get 1280x800 pixels
18:42:21 <ehird> which is what most 13.3" inch laptops get
18:42:30 <AnMaster> ehird, old 12" were 800x600 right?
18:42:42 <ehird> Yes, well, not that old
18:43:09 <AnMaster> ehird, I remember an old performa
18:43:29 <AnMaster> that had like 640x480 as the highest possible mode
18:43:38 <ehird> I've used a 12.1" laptop that was 1280x768; a little lighter than the one I'm getting, I think.
18:43:42 <AnMaster> it used something less by defaulkt
18:43:53 <fizzie> My not-first-but-a-bit-old 12" iBook G4 has 1024x768.
18:44:04 <ehird> something like 1.4kg with the battery in
18:44:11 <ehird> vs 1.6kg for the X200 with the 9-hour battery in
18:44:15 <fizzie> Oh, and the *really* old Toshiba Tecra CDT630 or whatever (Pentium 100) has 1024x768 in a 12" screen.
18:44:41 <ehird> This is why I said yesterday that we need perfect holographic screens.
18:45:04 <ehird> In a field somewhere? The base of it is 12.1" (for the full keyboard) and there is no top. Turn it on and a display appears where it should be in thin air!
18:45:05 <fizzie> (Even though it has only 2 MB of RAM on the graphics card, so only 16-bit color for the native 1024x768 resolution.)
18:45:08 <AnMaster> ehird, why are you getting a system with *square* pixels?
18:45:25 <ehird> At a desk about to edit images? Click the display icon in your task bar and select a 30" display with some resolution/
18:45:37 <ehird> It appears, hovering in mid air.
18:45:42 <ehird> (going off the edges of the base).
18:46:48 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but I thought that was recording a 3D object in some material using laser thingy
18:47:05 <ehird> No, holograms are the reflective things like on money that you see if you tilt them to the light.
18:47:14 <ehird> OR THEY'RE BEAMS OF 3D PEOPLE LIKE IN STAR WARS
18:47:28 <AnMaster> ehird, don't forget Star Trek too
18:47:42 <ehird> Pfft, Star Trek. It's so scientifically inaccurate.
18:47:45 <ehird> No, Star Wars has it right!
18:47:59 <AnMaster> ehird, holograms aren't usual there. But they do happen in one of the time traveling episodes iirc
18:48:00 <ehird> They had a big piece of paper and if you tilted it to the sun, the person appears next to you!*
18:48:24 <AnMaster> ehird, don't remember that scene at all :P
18:49:15 <ehird> Incidentally, on US election night last year, a bunch of cameras shot a CNN newsanchor and "beamed" it in to their studio. Except the other people in the studio didn't see shit and it was just overlaid on to the final image.
18:49:15 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hologram <-- ?
18:49:20 <ehird> Not that they told you that, of course.
18:49:29 <ehird> AnMaster: hologram is the usual sci-fi speak term for it
18:49:34 <ehird> despite not meaning that
18:49:35 <AnMaster> "While holography is commonly used to display static 3-D pictures, it is not yet possible to generate arbitrary scenes by a holographic volumetric display."
18:49:53 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, it kind of confuses things
18:49:53 <ehird> Yeah, that wouldn't even fit in a laptop and who cares about 3D. :P
18:55:14 <ehird> Anyway, add those variable-size, extremely-bright, no-reflection holographic displays and I'm satisfied with the current crop of laptops. :P
18:56:16 <ehird> Hmm, the ThinkPad I saw at the refurbished laptop shop looks like a T40, circa 2003.
18:56:37 <ehird> The nipple mouse wasn't very fast and its buttons felt more like keys.
18:56:49 <ehird> With some setting tweaking and more shiny-newness it'd be fine, I imagine.
18:56:59 <ehird> AnMaster: are the buttons still more like keys, btw?
18:57:04 <ehird> not for the touchpad, those feel like buttons
18:57:20 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
18:57:42 <ehird> The nipple mouse buttons.
18:58:22 <ehird> sounds like it, but no
18:58:31 <ehird> you have to push it hard to get much response, and double clicking is a pain
18:58:42 <ehird> since the pressing/depressing of keys is slower and smoother than a button
18:58:49 <ehird> hmm, can't have been a T40, it didn't have a touchpad
18:59:10 <ehird> ah, probably the X40
18:59:35 <ehird> AnMaster: as in, to fully depress the key
18:59:45 <ehird> think about it, keys have a lot more pushing before they click down than a button
18:59:49 <ehird> and the same for going up
18:59:58 <ehird> so clicking and especially double clicking is a pain
19:00:12 <ehird> plus, there's less of a tactile *click* than a button
19:00:21 <AnMaster> ehird, for a model M certainly
19:00:27 <AnMaster> but for a laptop keyboard? nah
19:00:37 <ehird> AnMaster: I've used one, you havent
19:00:46 <ehird> admittedly for a minute or two, but no
19:00:50 <ehird> the key-like buttons were the devil
19:00:53 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
19:01:49 <ehird> I want a W700ds for the ridiculosity. It has a 17" display, a retractable side 10" display, a "digitizer" tablet, you can give it a RAID array, ...
19:01:55 <ehird> I wonder how much that thing ways; prolly about a ton.
19:01:59 <ehird> Battery life of 30 seconds!
19:02:44 <AnMaster> "a retractable side 10" display"
19:02:57 <AnMaster> and, where is the battery life listed
19:03:03 <ehird> http://www.handingchao.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/lenovo-thinkpad-w700ds.jpg
19:03:14 <ehird> Also, I don't think they do; probably for the best.
19:03:18 <ehird> It only comes with a 9-cell, obviously.
19:03:37 <ehird> And yes, that IS a number pad.
19:03:41 <AnMaster> ehird, what is the side 9" one for?
19:03:51 <ehird> And for, you know, extra stuff.
19:03:55 <ehird> Photoshop windows?
19:03:59 <ehird> Like, toolset things.
19:04:02 <AnMaster> ehird, why not a full 17" one?
19:04:13 <ehird> Sort of wouldn't fit in anything.
19:04:33 <AnMaster> to fit in the three extra 17" displays
19:04:39 <ehird> AnMaster: Why not propose it to them?
19:04:41 <AnMaster> (yes, each side = at the top too
19:04:58 * ehird switches to the US site to get the highest-end options on the W700ds
19:05:03 <ehird> Time to TRICK THIS THING THE FUCK OUT.
19:05:06 <AnMaster> ehird, well, since that is a notebook and not a laptop
19:05:20 <ehird> I have a new notebook.
19:05:25 <ehird> You know those PCs that went on their side?
19:05:35 <ehird> Weld a monitor, keyboard and mouse to one of them.
19:05:52 <AnMaster> ehird, you mean like a desktop?
19:05:52 <ehird> (Keyboard goes on top, monitor behind keyboard.)
19:05:59 <ehird> The side-desktops.
19:06:17 <ehird> Often found in schools
19:06:18 <AnMaster> ehird, well, technically the upright desktops are "towers" iirc
19:06:29 <ehird> Anyway, it would be amazing.
19:06:40 <AnMaster> ehird, oh those in the uni are side desktops, but mounted vertically
19:07:05 <ehird> Like a server rack?
19:07:09 <ehird> s/that line/nothing
19:07:16 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)).
19:07:38 <ehird> Wow, it comes with a Nvidia Quadro.
19:07:49 <AnMaster> ehird, no, more like a tray made out of something similar to the metal bags you sometimes see at the front of bicycles
19:07:52 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
19:08:38 <AnMaster> ehird, they aren't rack mounted as such
19:08:46 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and most had HUGE displays
19:08:59 <Deewiant> I think they're just called racks like the ones on the back
19:09:04 <AnMaster> ehird, the ones in the library had at least 26" I think
19:09:18 <AnMaster> ehird, and in the computer rooms? Pretty much the same
19:09:43 <ehird> http://pastie.org/588787.txt?key=o0r1ib5cmi58ln8yr5qhw All specs maxed out apart from OS/software
19:09:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, hm? it wasn't like, you know,secured to the "rack" by screws or anything
19:10:04 <ehird> That is, 44857 SEK.
19:10:13 <AnMaster> Microsoft Windows XP Professional US English RDVD
19:10:25 <AnMaster> you need 64 bit windows for it
19:10:44 <ehird> It still works without it.
19:10:45 <Deewiant> It's got both Vista and XP there
19:10:46 <ehird> You just can't access the rest.
19:10:48 <AnMaster> Ultranav + Fingerprint Reader + Pantone Color Sensor + WACOM Digitizer
19:10:52 <ehird> Deewiant: yeah, the XP is a downgrade CD
19:11:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Which bit is what?
19:11:14 <ehird> AnMaster: For automatic calibration.
19:11:29 <ehird> It also has a WACOM Digitizer; it's obviously aimed at serious image work.
19:11:36 <ehird> (= tablet, basically, from what I gather)
19:11:38 <AnMaster> ehird, oh, it isn't like a built in scanner to check colour of printed things?
19:12:11 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't need fucking RAID for image editing. Video editing, sure
19:12:30 <ehird> Dedicated harddrive cache
19:12:35 <ehird> AnMaster: there aren't any >320GB laptop drives
19:12:40 <ehird> but only since like a month or two ago
19:12:52 <ehird> AnMaster: you can RAID-1 them too
19:12:53 <ehird> serious work, remember
19:13:10 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw, I looked at those express card/PC-card slots on my laptop
19:13:14 <AnMaster> they have different connectors
19:13:23 <AnMaster> so one is express card I think
19:13:57 <AnMaster> the top one internally has a non-rectangular shape
19:14:06 <AnMaster> as in, it is more narrow near the inner end
19:14:18 <nooga> in MFC3 header files there are #ifdef _MAC thingys
19:14:32 <nooga> as if they tried to port it to mac OS
19:14:41 <AnMaster> ehird, how hot does that run I wonder
19:15:01 <ehird> AnMaster: If you don't want babies, why not completely remove your testicles?
19:15:38 <nooga> ehird: i accidentaly tried
19:16:04 <ehird> nooga has the ability to pass on his genes?
19:17:37 <nooga> i'd like to flood GB with my siblings
19:17:54 <ehird> that's ok, I want to leave this country at the nearest opportunity
19:19:22 <fizzie> Misread that as "flood GB with my syphilis".
19:19:26 <AnMaster> ehird, I know how to fix the display issue
19:19:39 <AnMaster> insanely high res display in your glasses
19:19:56 <ehird> Myvu Crystal; 640x480 in less than an inch.
19:20:12 <ehird> AnMaster: No, the actual glasses are black and have two of them, I think
19:20:16 <ehird> to cover your whole vision
19:20:20 <ehird> but he took out just one display
19:20:24 <ehird> to use without them
19:20:30 <ehird> AnMaster: What I really want is OLED visors.
19:20:42 <ehird> (OLED because it's super-light, bendable (so you can make the visors curved properly), and can be transparent.)
19:21:03 <ehird> But the colours aren't too good on transparent OLEDs, and they're still at trade-show level.
19:21:09 <AnMaster> ehird, best would be if you could do both "hide real view" display
19:21:10 <ehird> Still, not too long to go.
19:21:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Just cover the whole screen with pixels
19:21:18 <AnMaster> and "overlay on normal view" display
19:21:29 <ehird> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=773108
19:21:35 <ehird> Why just deleted his whole online prescence
19:22:48 <ehird> ...and this is where the complete unknowing we have of anything about him comes in.
19:22:55 <ehird> Wonder if he's suicidal.
19:23:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I guess there is always waybackmachine
19:23:24 <ehird> (Apparently one of his last twatresults (better than "tweet") was "programming is rather thankless. u see your works become replaced by superior ones in a year. unable to run at all in a few more".)
19:23:33 <ehird> (Although that "u" is rather un-whylike; maybe it totals 140 chars.)
19:23:43 <ehird> AnMaster: All his stuff will be around; I'm worried about the guy
19:23:51 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe someone hacked his computer
19:24:09 <ehird> stop pulling at straws, he obviously did this
19:24:20 -!- kar8nga has quit (Connection timed out).
19:24:26 <ehird> oh, the tweet was "programming is rather thankless. you see your works become replaced by superior works in a year. unable to run at all in a few more."
19:24:33 <ehird> but someone retweeting made it "u" due to the "RT @_why" taking up space.
19:24:56 <ehird> ("if you program and want longevity, make a game. all else recycles, but people rewrite architectures to keep games alive")
19:25:03 <ehird> (maybe he's now working for EA and they want him to shut up :P)
19:25:10 <AnMaster> <ehird> ("if you program and want longevity, make a game. all else recycles, but people rewrite architectures to keep games alive")
19:25:35 <ehird> zsnes still exists. :)
19:25:59 <ehird> emulators are nice
19:26:08 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway he does have a point, games do last longer than most apps
19:26:19 <ehird> he absolutely has a point, I just hope it isn't connected
19:26:52 <AnMaster> ehird, though, I think NOT programming a game ensures even greater longevity!
19:26:56 <AnMaster> and there is a good example of it
19:27:08 <ehird> because 3d realms died
19:27:25 <ehird> the project is officially over
19:27:29 <AnMaster> ehird, very well.... they managed it for quite a while
19:27:43 <ehird> I saw the longest, latest preview; it looked great
19:27:54 <ehird> though nobody will buy the project for obvious reasons
19:28:01 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
19:28:25 <ehird> "It was reported on May 14, 2009 that Take-Two, holders of the publishing rights of Duke Nukem Forever, filed a breach of contract suit against Apogee Software Ltd (3D Realms) over failing to deliver the aforementioned title."
19:28:37 <ehird> "Fuck you guys. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck you guys. Just give us the damn game already."
19:28:38 <AnMaster> "With the termination of the development team by 3D Realms in May 2009, production on Duke Nukem Forever has been halted. Again. Although Take-Two still owns the publishing rights to the game, they do not have an agreement with 3D Realms to provide funding for the game's continued development.[7] A lawsuit has been filed by Take-Two Interactive against 3D Realms over their failure to finish developmen
19:31:47 -!- andi___ has quit (Success).
19:37:44 <AnMaster> ehird, so in theory there is still a slim hope
19:56:41 <ehird> Anyway, Mario has lasted longer.
19:57:11 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:58:58 <AnMaster> ehird, but the original mario game? Not sure about that
19:59:06 <ehird> People still play and enjoy it
19:59:09 <ehird> especially speedruns
19:59:26 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm not counting Donkey Kong, though that's still quite popular too
19:59:42 <ehird> well, that was Jumpman, technically
19:59:45 <AnMaster> ehird, oh? which one would you consider the original then
19:59:56 <GregorR> In order to be a M-- yeah, no Jumpman.
20:00:02 <ehird> GregorR: donkey kong junior
20:00:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Super Mario Bros is the first Mario platformer, which is what I was counting
20:00:18 <ehird> but Mario Bros probably counts too
20:00:35 <ehird> Only two years difference, anyway
20:00:59 <ehird> AnMaster: but Super Mario World, too
20:01:07 <ehird> 1990/1992 to present, still alive and well
20:01:16 <AnMaster> what was Mario Bros if not a platformer?
20:01:17 <ehird> and people still make rom hacks
20:01:29 <ehird> only one, non-scrolling level
20:01:48 <AnMaster> ehird, so what did you try to do in that game?
20:01:59 <ehird> Kill enemies and collect coins until you die.
20:02:23 <ehird> It's amusing for about seven minutes
20:02:47 <GregorR> <ehird> Kill enemies and collect coins until you die. // this is pretty much my slogan for living.
20:03:01 <ehird> Pacifism: Collect coins until you die.
20:03:06 <ehird> Nihilism: until you die.
20:03:23 <nooga> GregorR: <ehird> Kill enemies and collect coins until you die. // this is pretty much my slogan for living. // good one
20:03:31 <ehird> Psychoism: Kill enemies until you die.
20:03:54 <ehird> Christianity: Kill enemies until you die, then collect coins.
20:04:06 <GregorR> Judaism: Collect coins until you die, then kill enemies.
20:04:12 <ehird> Buddhism: Die until you die.
20:04:49 <ehird> Beingjesusism: Die, then forty and a few days later, die.
20:05:00 <AnMaster> <nooga> GregorR: <ehird> Kill enemies and collect coins until you die. // this is pretty much my slogan for living. // good one /* Agreed */
20:05:17 <ehird> [20:05] AnMaster: <nooga> GregorR: <ehird> Kill enemies and collect coins until you die. // this is pretty much my slogan for living. // good one /* Agreed */ / k owns, did i mention
20:05:48 <AnMaster> <ehird> [20:05] AnMaster: <nooga> GregorR: <ehird> Kill enemies and collect coins until you die. // this is pretty much my slogan for living. // good one /* Agreed */ / k owns, did i mention %% stop hijacking the line for your own nefarious purposes!
20:05:58 <ehird> Super Mario Bros: Kill enemies, collect coins and pander to the sadistic tendencies of the game designer until you either die or rescue the princess.
20:06:23 <nooga> only to find taht princess is kidnapped again
20:06:27 <ehird> Super Mario Galaxy: GRAVITY DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY
20:06:43 <Slereah> The last Mario I played was Mario VIP
20:07:30 <oklopol> ehird: i like why's ruby booker
20:07:34 <ehird> are there any super mario world hacks that are impossible to play without tool-assisted speedrunning, due to human response times?
20:07:43 <ehird> oklopol: then tell why to start existing again!
20:07:44 <oklopol> just the kinda insanity that's not annoying
20:07:46 <oklopol> just the kinda insanity that's not annoying
20:07:54 <ehird> just the kinda insanity that's not annoying
20:07:55 <ehird> just the kinda insanity that's not annoying
20:11:00 <ehird> OBAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:11:02 <ehird> O O O BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:11:17 <ehird> i think my sleep dep hasn't worn off yet, despite like 12 hrs sleep :)
20:21:30 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:38:23 -!- M0ny has joined.
20:43:11 -!- M0ny has quit (Client Quit).
21:06:56 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from bsmntbombdood: 0.64 second(s)
21:07:32 <AnMaster> bsmntbombdood, about 0.2 of those are on my side
21:07:56 <bsmntbombdood> 64 bytes from google.com (74.125.127.100): icmp_seq=1 ttl=52 time=589 ms
21:08:03 <AnMaster> and my lag is about 0.1 one way
21:08:10 <ehird> AnMaster: 5x slower than here
21:08:28 <ehird> AnMaster: your client doesn't respond to pings, fix that.
21:08:43 <GregorR> * Ping reply from oklopol: 1250661266.18 second(s)
21:08:49 <ehird> Pretty sure that violates the spec.
21:08:56 <ehird> GregorR: you're a special person!
21:09:15 * ehird considers flooding AnMaster with CTCP requestsj
21:09:18 <GregorR> `calc 1250661266.18 seconds in years
21:09:19 <HackEgo> 1 250 661 266.18 seconds = 39.6319105 years
21:09:27 <GregorR> That's some sucky latency.
21:09:35 <AnMaster> ehird, most clients can't handle multiple requests CTCP requests per line either
21:09:49 <AnMaster> what was your point now again?
21:09:53 <AnMaster> * Ping reply from ehird: 0.78 second(s)
21:09:59 <ehird> AnMaster: so, let me get this straight
21:10:02 * ehird your client blocks this?
21:10:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I do this to avoid CTCP floods
21:10:50 <ehird> Which are more deadly than regular floods, because of magic.
21:11:04 <AnMaster> ehird, because they trigger automatic replies yes
21:11:37 <FireFly> Multiple versions on a line could be useful
21:11:41 <AnMaster> assuming multiple clients are CTCP spamming you, your client's sending queue will fill up pretty quickly
21:12:09 <AnMaster> FireFly, see the "spec" for what this actually means
21:12:34 <FireFly> Well, useful for crashing someone, that is
21:12:54 <FireFly> I've read the spec once... was a while, though
21:13:05 <AnMaster> FireFly, except, the number of clients implementing it is less than 0.000001% or so
21:13:23 <FireFly> yeah, since it's potentially dangerous for crashing the user
21:13:33 <FireFly> s/crashing/causing to quit/
21:14:01 <ehird> 0.000001%? So there are at least 100,000,000 clients.
21:14:43 <Asztal> I'm not sure it's entirely useless... ACTION ponders.
21:14:52 -!- puzzlet_ has joined.
21:15:18 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I corrected that above
21:15:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection).
21:15:38 <AnMaster> Asztal, yet, no one implements it
21:16:14 <Asztal> ehird: it turned out that they didn't actually support it, they just stopped dropping the whole message
21:20:21 <ehird> http://www.youtube.com/user/whytheluckystiff and http://vimeo.com/why still exist
21:20:32 <ehird> though they're both dead
21:23:32 <ehird> [[Just noticed that the server (72.232.19.34) is still running. But its refusing connections on HTTP. Only ssh and postgres(!) ports are open.]]
21:24:05 -!- ehird has set topic: RIP chunky bacon 2005—2009 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
21:25:06 <ehird> GregorR: Why the lucky stiff deleted all his online accounts and sites today.
21:25:23 <ehird> (author of why's (poignant) guide to ruby and a whole bunch of other awesome LSD-tinged stuff)
21:25:34 <ehird> as of yet, nobody knows why in the slightest
21:25:46 <ehird> but nobody really knows anything about the man, so nobody can try and find him
21:27:56 <Deewiant> I'm amused by the level of outcry in such a short time
21:28:15 <ehird> Deewiant: how's that amusing
21:28:32 <ehird> he's an international treasure, of course people care what's up with him
21:30:08 <Deewiant> It reminds me of celebrity news
21:31:42 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, people caring about other people uncharacteristically disappearing after saying things about what they do being thankless are all gossip-crazy
21:31:46 <ehird> Why don't we all become sociopaths
21:32:04 <oklopol> yeah, if madonna suddently disappeared from the face of the earth, that totally wouldn't make anything but celeb news
21:32:21 <oklopol> (madonna because i just saw madonna's pic, probably)
21:32:29 <oklopol> (he was in the celeb news)
21:33:04 <Deewiant> He's been the secretive type anyway: nobody knows his /name/
21:33:44 <ehird> Deewiant: "He's pseudonymous and doesn't reveal things about his personal life; therefore, to care about the man after him totally disappearing after the aforementioned tweet is gossip"
21:34:04 <ehird> GregorR: it's wrong
21:34:18 <ehird> the source is a wordpress blog that uses hostnames to establish it -
21:34:21 <ehird> http://whoiswhytheluckystiff.wordpress.com/
21:34:29 <ehird> and http://twitter.com/jgillette
21:34:39 <ehird> is the person in the right place, etc, who twat "hmm so who is _why the lucky stiff and why do people suddenly thing he's me?"
21:34:42 <ehird> in conclusion, bull
21:34:54 <Deewiant> ehird: I didn't say caring about the man is gossip
21:35:10 <ehird> So, telling people about it is gossip?
21:35:40 <Deewiant> Hundreds of people's speculations about what happened is gossip
21:36:28 <ehird> I haven't read much speculation.
21:36:36 <ehird> Only the exceedingly obvious guesses.
21:36:57 <GregorR> He died! And his last action was to ... take down all his web sites? :P
21:37:35 <ehird> dead man's switches exist
21:37:40 <GregorR> He joined the French Foreign Legion! And decided that so long as he's out there his web pages shouldn't exist.
21:37:42 <ehird> but i find that unlikely
21:38:05 <oklopol> GregorR: i'm starting to see a pattern
21:38:08 <ehird> He's left the internet to don a fox suit and have sexual intercourse with layers upon layers of chunky bacon!
21:38:17 <ehird> He's taking a break... to become a SHE!
21:38:28 <ehird> (Hahahahaha I hope that last one is true)
21:38:39 <ehird> GregorR: That's why the lucky stiffETTE to YOU.
21:42:51 <AnMaster> ehird, fun thing: even on my laptop, with intel cpu, gcc manages way better than icc at cfunge
21:42:52 <AnMaster> icc generates code to verify CPU is the correct one
21:43:04 <AnMaster> thus, some overhead for short-running programs
21:43:08 -!- andi has joined.
21:43:36 -!- andi has changed nick to Guest89116.
21:44:25 -!- ais523 has joined.
21:45:55 <nooga> my retarded sister thinks she's a model
21:46:11 <nooga> http://www.maxmodels.pl/freyaah.html lol'd hardly
21:47:14 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server").
21:48:32 <ais523> AnMaster: what do you need hellp with?
21:48:55 <ais523> fair enough, p for o is a common typo
21:48:59 <ehird> wow, an actually good AnMaster joke
21:49:20 <AnMaster> ehird, you said that a few times before
21:49:30 <AnMaster> you say it on average one time / three months
21:49:30 <ehird> yes, they're rare occasions
21:49:53 <ehird> I cast lvl 74 objectivity.
21:49:53 <AnMaster> (yes I'm making a parody there)
21:50:03 <ehird> You use your misreading skills to take it as objectivism.
21:50:11 <ehird> You exploit me for your own capitalistic tendencies.
21:50:17 <ehird> The free market collapses.
21:50:29 <ehird> You realise your horrible, horrible mistake and cry yourself to sleep.
21:50:40 <ehird> The next day, you jump off a bridge into a state-provided trampoline.
21:50:44 <ehird> Only then do you realise you made no mistakes.
21:50:47 <AnMaster> they are way way harder to read than amd docs
21:50:48 <nooga> is that because he's identity was revealed?
21:50:52 <ehird> You start a state of free market capitalism.
21:50:54 <ehird> nooga: no, because it wasn't.
21:51:14 <AnMaster> ehird, remember I'm a socialist!
21:51:18 <ehird> nooga is a gullible idiot, discuss
21:51:41 <AnMaster> ehird, define that word first ;P
21:51:46 -!- ehird has left (?).
21:51:52 -!- ehird has joined.
21:51:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> nooga is a gullible idiot, discuss
21:51:59 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ehird, define that word first ;P
21:52:00 <ehird> http://whoiswhytheluckystiff.wordpress.com/
21:52:03 <ehird> http://jonathangillette.net/
21:52:05 <ehird> http://twitter.com/jgillette
21:52:09 <nooga> that's because language barrier you twat
21:52:11 <ehird> not the same person
21:52:20 <ehird> people who know why's real name
21:52:24 <ehird> confirm that that's not it
21:52:37 <nooga> then why why is gone?
21:52:49 <ehird> I don't know, I'll ask my crystal ball.
21:52:57 <ehird> Oh wait, it's a Magic 8 one.
21:53:05 <ehird> "Ask again later".
21:53:10 <GregorR> ehird: CRACK IT OPEN AND DRINK THE BLUE FLUID INSIDE
21:53:17 <ehird> GregorR: DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUDE
21:53:22 <ehird> How do you get ideas so AWESOME
21:53:34 <GregorR> Ask it if you should first :P
21:54:20 <AnMaster> <ehird> http://whoiswhytheluckystiff.wordpress.com/ <-- doesn't prove it. More than one people can exist on a single mail server.
21:54:20 <ehird> GregorR: "VERY SUPER EXTRA YES"
21:54:31 <ehird> AnMaster: WHY CAN'T YOU READ MORE THAN ONE LINE AT A TIME
21:54:33 <ehird> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK YOU >_<
21:54:41 <nooga> hi i jonathan gillete and my mission is to shave!
21:54:49 <ehird> AnMaster: But fyi, both USERNAMES were "why".
21:54:56 <ehird> NEVERTHELESS, not him.
21:55:01 <ehird> See the lines after which you ignored.
21:55:13 <ehird> nooga: using same computer, duh
21:55:24 -!- pingveno has joined.
21:55:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> people who know why's real name
21:55:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> confirm that that's not it
21:55:35 <ehird> AnMaster: Also the ones after →
21:55:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well, why should they not try to say it isn't
21:56:22 <ehird> AnMaster: The person who sent that email *is not him*.
21:56:22 <AnMaster> <ehird> confirm that that's not it
21:56:27 <ehird> He does not look like him.
21:56:34 <AnMaster> ehird, so the email was a fake?
21:56:43 <ehird> Ignoring the fact that you're an idiot,
21:56:51 <ehird> yes, there are multiple people who know why's name
21:56:59 <ehird> and no, jonathan gillette isn't it
21:57:14 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
21:57:28 <AnMaster> ehird, why are you trying to confuse things here.
21:57:36 <ehird> How on earth am I doing that?
21:57:40 -!- pingveno has changed nick to Alevar.
21:58:57 <Alevar> Does Alevar or Adevar sound better?
21:59:08 <nooga> ehird: how do you type that arrows?
21:59:35 <ehird> Alevar: who're you, anyway?
22:00:05 <ais523> Alevar: I prefer Alevar, I think
22:00:17 <ais523> nooga: → is altgr-i on this computer
22:00:41 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
22:01:04 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
22:01:26 <AnMaster> nooga, stop using a US keyboard?
22:01:53 <nooga> i have only alt ;p
22:02:04 <AnMaster> nooga, left alt and right alt?
22:02:53 <fizzie> There's the yui = ←↓→, U = ↑ thing; that's about the only mapped-to-alphabetical special I can remember, in addition to µ.
22:06:54 <fizzie> Yes, but the ĸ in k is the useless ĸ; it's U+0138 "latin small letter kra (Greenlandic, old orthography)" and not the greek small letter kappa, κ, which at least has some use.
22:08:07 <fizzie> Admittedly it makes some sense that the keymap's latin-oriented and doesn't try to fit random Greek (or the Cyrillic ka, к) in there since it wouldn't be a good set anyway.
22:08:17 <fizzie> µ's sort of special since it's in latin-1.
22:09:20 <fizzie> And indeed the µ generated by alt-gr m here is the latin-1 U+00B5 "micro sign" and not the greek letter mu.
22:09:42 <AnMaster> fizzie, I thought those µ where the same?
22:10:08 <fizzie> No, the greek small letter mu is U+03BC. They do *look* the same, though.
22:10:54 <Deewiant> They're the same the same way that a and а are the same
22:10:59 <fizzie> Unlike the greek capital sigma Σ and the n-ary summation operator ∑, which tend to look different.
22:11:08 <Deewiant> Namely, they probably look identical in all fonts
22:11:15 -!- coppro has joined.
22:11:17 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what were those two a?
22:11:24 <Deewiant> +that you're likely to be using on IRC
22:11:33 <fizzie> I'm guessing latin and cyrillic a's.
22:11:35 <Deewiant> I somehow managed to press enter without completing my thought
22:12:06 <AnMaster> fizzie, sum and sigma do differ
22:13:40 <fizzie> They *were* the latin and cyrillic small letters a; do I win something?
22:15:16 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
22:15:24 <Deewiant> There are no other typically-identical-looking alphabets in Unicode that I'm aware of
22:17:20 <fizzie> I don't think there are other exactly a-looking characters, no. There's the fullwidth latin small a, ａ, but that looks a bit different here.
22:17:30 <fizzie> And a lot different in the monospaced IRC font.
22:17:33 <Deewiant> Ironically, it looks about halfsize here
22:18:24 <fizzie> I also don't have the necessary fonts to see the non-BMP lycian/carian/old italic/osmanya/lydian/kharoshthi letters a.
22:19:57 <Deewiant> The carian and old italic look mainly like A, the others have unobvious similarities
22:20:39 <fizzie> Aw. Well, not too surprising.
22:22:15 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Connection timed out).
22:23:42 -!- olsner has joined.
22:34:24 -!- Sneezle has joined.
22:42:34 -!- Alevar has quit (Remote closed the connection).
22:50:29 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)).
23:02:29 <ehird> http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10313064-93.html / lol wut
23:04:26 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:05:04 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
23:06:04 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:06:34 <GregorR> " wait, what??? did I miss a few years of tech?" // my thoughts exactly
23:07:41 <ehird> GregorR: I wish it actually changed the paper instead of being a lameo screen
23:07:50 <ehird> "The battery lasts for about 65 to 70 minutes, and can be recharged, believe it or not, with a mini USB cord--there's a jack on the back of it."
23:08:12 <ehird> I hope it turns on when it detects you flicked page to it
23:08:35 <pikhq> I hope it's easy to hack.
23:09:27 <ehird> infiltrate distribution center, put porn on all of them
23:09:47 <GregorR> Who needs profit when you've got porn?
23:10:08 <pikhq> I thought the basis of economy was the obtaining of porn?
23:10:16 <pikhq> (and thus, with porn one needs no profit)
23:10:39 <ehird> pikhq: You just revealed the source of the economic meltdown!
23:10:51 <ehird> *dun dun DUUUUUUUUUUUUN*
23:11:10 <GregorR> OH GOD YOU JUST MADE THE PHRASE "AYN RAND PORN" JUMP INTO MY HEAD
23:11:19 <ehird> GregorR: They were ANGULAR.
23:11:22 <ehird> And they RAPED each other.
23:11:23 <pikhq> ehird: Ayn Rand's principles would make things worse.
23:11:29 <ehird> And ENJOYED it, ANGULARLY.
23:11:34 <GregorR> MY PENIS JUST CLIMBED INTO MY BODY AND SAYS HE WON'T COME OUT AGAIN
23:11:42 <pikhq> NO MORE COPYRIGHT!!! -> MOAR FREE PORN!
23:11:46 <ehird> You're like rabbits and stuff!
23:11:53 <ehird> DON'T ASK ME HOW I KNOW ABOUT RABBIT PENISES
23:12:00 <ehird> pikhq: Ayn Rand wasn't against copyright per se
23:12:05 <ehird> just every law apart from, like, property
23:12:26 <pikhq> Ayn Rand was *that* sort of crazy.
23:12:32 <ehird> GregorR: also, how do you know your penis' gender?
23:13:06 <ehird> check to see if it has a penis or a vagina
23:13:07 <ais523> wtf has happened to this channel?
23:13:12 <pikhq> ehird: What kind of dick has a vagina?
23:13:19 <ais523> I look away for a few minutes, I look back, and see this...
23:13:23 <ehird> ais523: What, penises?
23:13:40 <ais523> ehird: well, it isn't esolangs
23:13:49 <ehird> ais523: Yes, that's normal.
23:13:54 <ehird> What's ODD about it?
23:14:15 <ais523> because, I'm sure there's a #randomcrap on Freenode, or a channel to that extent
23:14:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:14:32 <ais523> but really, making every channel the same topic is ridiculous
23:14:32 <ehird> Oh, another "why don't we cut 90% of the channel's discussion" tirade.
23:14:34 <ehird> Thank you, ais523.
23:14:42 <ehird> ais523: channels are communities, not topics
23:14:49 <ehird> unless they're really big
23:14:56 <ais523> the topic's what creates the community, though
23:15:12 <ehird> Yes, and esolangs created his community
23:15:17 <ehird> We're very esolang people.
23:15:25 <ehird> We even discuss them when there's anything to discuss about them.
23:18:56 <oerjan> <ais523> but really, making every channel the same topic is ridiculous <-- wait, is every channel about chunky bacon now?
23:19:24 <ehird> oerjan: Logread :P
23:19:27 <pikhq> oerjan just won a web.
23:19:31 <ehird> (which you presumably are.)
23:20:20 <ehird> I just found the best blogspam ever
23:20:27 <ehird> http://www.macrumors.com/2009/08/18/analyst-apple-to-sell-80-million-iphones-in-2012-snag-5-7-of-total-mobile-phone-market/ "Apple to sell 80 million iPhones"
23:20:31 <ehird> http://iphoneusernews.com/?p=1022
23:20:36 <ehird> 896 billion iPhones to be sold in 2012
23:20:46 <ehird> HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN
23:21:35 <oerjan> <oklopol> god i hate your pronouns
23:21:44 <oerjan> well, she has legs like a man, anyway
23:22:04 <ehird> oerjan is an expert on legs
23:22:15 <ehird> HE HAS SEEN MANY LEGS, MOSTLY MEN
23:24:20 <oerjan> ehird: well with the singularity in 2012, obviously things will grow superexponentially until they are obsolete
23:24:47 <ehird> Bit optimistic timing :P
23:25:02 <oerjan> (that yessir did _not_ refer to legs in any way, btw)
23:25:10 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9c0gf/clojure_the_zombiereanimated_corpse_of_lisp/c0c7f1d
23:25:20 <ehird> The Loper OS guy is actually buying a real new Lisp Machine from Symbolics!
23:25:37 <ehird> The 70 pound ye olde machine.
23:25:52 <ehird> 760 MB of ESDI disk! 4 megawords of memory!
23:25:57 <oerjan> "new"? i thought they were all old ones from storage?
23:26:03 <ehird> oerjan: But never used.
23:26:19 <ehird> It'll cost him $675, it seems.
23:26:36 <ehird> Or more, if he's getting a better model than the base.
23:26:47 <oerjan> i guess a lisp machine is a certain kind of geek's equivalent of a cadillac
23:26:50 <ehird> well, looks like he's already bought it, just going to pick it up
23:27:08 <ehird> oerjan: it's more like rickshaws being ubiquitous, and going to pick up a Model T
23:27:28 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickshaw
23:27:37 <oerjan> i know what a rickshaw is
23:28:04 <ehird> lisp machines are dated technology, but their concepts are much, much better than modern machines
23:29:12 <ehird> were he of the more rich type, he could buy a $3,500 XL1201
23:29:39 <ehird> which would come with 8 megawords (40MB) of RAM, a 9GB SCSI (zomg, technology that's actually still used) disk, and a 19" monochrome display.
23:29:56 <nooga> if i implement IPC, task schleduling and distributed filesystem in a program that can run on multiple machines at the same time but in user space and communicates via network... can i call it distributed operating system ?
23:29:58 <ehird> (among other stuff)
23:30:15 <nooga> yea, there are such things
23:30:38 <ehird> So is your program
23:30:57 -!- puzzlet has joined.
23:31:00 <nooga> but it's not lilke JVM
23:31:08 <nooga> it's the other king of VM
23:31:36 <ehird> Squeak is an OS that runs in user-space.
23:31:37 <nooga> not Limbo, like Inferno
23:31:49 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:31:53 <ehird> Squeak is an OS that runs in user-space.
23:32:02 <nooga> is it distributed?
23:32:13 <ehird> It claims to be an implementation of Smalltalk.
23:33:04 <nooga> what i want is a thing that could run simple processes under unix systems and control them throught the network
23:33:23 <ehird> Your idea will fail, nooga, because it assumes the network is infinitely fast.
23:33:26 <nooga> with schleduler and IPC
23:33:39 <ehird> Unless you have a very semantically rich language with a very good implementation, almost all time will be taken doing useless network bounces.
23:33:46 <nooga> ehird: haha, some uses don't need fast IPC
23:34:00 <ehird> nooga, automatic distribution Doesn't Work
23:34:05 <nooga> when things don't need to be realtime and strictly synchronized
23:34:34 <pikhq> Automatic distribution Doesn't Work™ for much the same reason automatic parallelism Doesn't Work™.
23:34:37 <ehird> distributed computing only works when doing it manually, for now
23:34:46 <ehird> your idea is impossible without new, as of yet undiscovered languages
23:34:49 <ehird> on new, as of yet undiscovered compilers
23:34:58 <ehird> protip: you haven't revolutionised CS, so it won't work.
23:34:59 <pikhq> Or sentient computers.
23:35:17 <nooga> so applications for that would be written in C using special library and programmer would have to manage own shit in the right way to get it parallel
23:35:45 <pikhq> ... Why oh why use C if you're going to be on top of a VM?
23:35:57 <pikhq> "Abstract away the machine so I can unabstract it!"
23:36:01 <nooga> because C is portable
23:36:12 <pikhq> ... Your VM is portable.
23:36:31 <nooga> and C programs will run on the most OSes used as execution environments
23:36:34 <pikhq> And C is only portable in comparison to assembly.
23:36:38 <pikhq> It takes *work* to port.
23:36:55 <ehird> God, nooga is such an idiot
23:37:17 <pikhq> And why the crap do you want to write in C on top of a VM? That either defeats the point of a VM or the point of C.
23:37:18 <nooga> Java is more portable than C, allright
23:37:23 <nooga> but it's FUCKING slow
23:37:36 <ehird> nooga: you're an idiot
23:37:38 <ehird> java is super fast
23:37:45 <pikhq> nooga: Actually, Java is not very slow.
23:37:51 <pikhq> It is just very memory-inefficient.
23:38:01 <ehird> pikhq: no, actually.
23:38:07 <pikhq> (not as a rule, but as a property of common Java coding style)
23:38:14 <nooga> check out the Java OS
23:38:16 <ehird> the only flaw the java vm has is startup time
23:38:30 <pikhq> So my complaint is with Java coders, not the JVM.
23:38:41 <ehird> I like how it went
23:38:47 <ehird> <nooga> common java stereotype
23:38:52 <ehird> <pikhq> actually, it's other common java stereotype
23:38:59 <ehird> <nooga> Ohh yeah it's actually that completely different thing.
23:39:13 <nooga> that's not what i mean
23:39:53 <pikhq> nooga: Writing in C on a VM is just an exercise in masochism, unless you're doing something like LLVM.
23:40:13 <nooga> i don't mean a VM in that sense!
23:40:39 <pikhq> So, you mean the sense that is not a virtual machine?
23:40:39 <nooga> i mean something like: I've got 9000 machiunes with linux instgalled, i want to share processes between them
23:40:50 <nooga> and spawn 9000 processes now
23:40:54 <ehird> I want to stab nooga until he can't use IRC. True story.
23:41:14 <nooga> i need a tool that will do ICP between these systems and execute the processes for me
23:41:31 <pikhq> Okay, that's not even *vaguely* a VM. Or automatic distribution.
23:41:31 <ehird> PVM, by the way, is usable for beowulf clusters; little else.
23:41:39 <nooga> because i don't have time to manually spawn 9000 processes on 9000 machines by loogin onto them via ssh
23:41:42 <pikhq> That's single system image clustering.
23:42:01 <pikhq> And it's fucking old.
23:42:10 <ehird> so write a shell script
23:42:16 <nooga> now add few fancy things like load balancing and communication via internet and you're done
23:42:20 <ehird> for i in $(seq 1 9000); do ssh machine$i fuck; done
23:42:26 <ehird> nooga: the internet is SLOW
23:42:26 <pikhq> nooga: That's single system image clustering.
23:42:39 <ehird> nooga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_Distributed_Computing
23:42:40 <nooga> + a terminal that'd let me to enter: run myprogram.c
23:42:42 <ehird> read these and internalise them
23:42:43 <pikhq> It is absurdly old.
23:42:46 <ehird> yours assumes most
23:43:04 <pikhq> And doesn't work well at all unless you've got gigabit Ethernet going.
23:43:06 <ehird> specifically, #1, #2, #3, #7
23:43:17 <nooga> it depends on a tash
23:43:18 <ehird> he wants to do this over the internet.
23:43:27 <pikhq> ehird: That's fucking insane.
23:43:43 <ehird> nooga: stop defending your idea, it's wrong and has been tried before, when people were more stupid
23:43:46 <pikhq> nooga: Computers don't work that way.
23:44:20 <nooga> the renderer works 3 hours and produces 5MB of data i need
23:44:40 <ehird> Distributed renderers are specially written with carefully placed manual networking, AND THEY AREN'T USED OVER THE INTERNET.
23:44:43 <nooga> i'd like to spawn 9000 renderers on sevveral machines
23:44:45 <ehird> They're used over gigabit ethernet or better.
23:44:52 <nooga> and then collect results in ANY order
23:44:57 <ehird> I want a fucking pony.
23:45:04 <ehird> A pony that can fly.
23:45:18 <pikhq> nooga: I'd set up a Condor cluster.
23:45:45 <ehird> Yes. BOINC software is HAND-WRITTEN.
23:45:51 <ehird> And very carefully distributes workloads.
23:46:04 <nooga> i never said anything about automatic parallelism
23:47:00 <nooga> you don't stop blabbering about hand written manually shit
23:47:23 <pikhq> Also, what you want is not a "virtual machine". That shit's a "library".
23:47:38 <pikhq> And it's already been done. Several times.
23:47:58 <nooga> and i didn;t say it's a virtual machine
23:48:02 <pikhq> And no, you could not call this library an operating system.
23:48:06 <ehird> You said "VM VM VM VM VM VM"
23:48:20 <ehird> Unless you meant "very, mmmm...retarded"
23:48:32 <pikhq> It's a daemon and a library.
23:48:38 <nooga> nooga: if i implement IPC, task schleduling and distributed filesystem in a program that can run on multiple machines at the same time but in user space and communicates via network... can i call it distributed operating system ?
23:48:40 <nooga> 00:29 ehird: (among other stuff)
23:48:42 <nooga> 00:30 ehird: nooga: no.
23:48:44 <nooga> 00:30 ehird: call it Squeak
23:48:46 <nooga> 00:30 nooga: yea, there are such things
23:48:50 <nooga> 00:30 nooga: squeak is a VM
23:48:52 <ehird> 23:48] ehird: Unless you meant "very, mmmm...retarded"
23:48:52 <ehird> [23:48] pikhq: It's a daemon and a library.
23:48:53 <ehird> [23:48] nooga: nooga: if i implement IPC, task schleduling and distributed filesystem in a program that can run on multiple machines at the same time but in user space and communicates via network... can i call it distributed operating system ?
23:48:53 <ehird> [23:48] nooga: 00:29 ehird: (among other stuff)
23:48:53 <ehird> [23:48] nooga: 00:30 ehird: nooga: no.
23:48:55 <ehird> [23:48] nooga: 00:30 ehird: call it Squeak
23:48:57 <ehird> [23:48] nooga: 00:30 nooga: yea, there are such things
23:48:59 <ehird> [23:48] nooga: 00:30 nooga: sure
23:49:01 <pikhq> 17:31 < nooga> kind*
23:49:01 <ehird> Whee, fun flood for the whole family!
23:49:03 <ehird> Let's quite old things!
23:49:04 <nooga> nooga: it's the other kind of VM
23:49:25 <ehird> "It's the other kind of VM: Vomiting Monsters"
23:50:16 <nooga> it's a daemon and a library
23:50:22 <nooga> why is it called PVM ?
23:50:36 <nooga> GUESS WHAT? NOBODY KNOWS!
23:50:56 <ehird> oerjan: btw, "If the person does participate in the wiki, a link to their user page is acceptable, but it should be obvious where the link leads; i.e., the "User:" part of the link should not be hidden" - do we know why this rule exists or why it's beneficial? it just makes the sentence more awkward and harder to read
23:51:11 <ehird> i bet it's just another one of graue's whims, like "categories are sacred and must never be created!"
23:53:54 -!- oklokok has joined.
23:54:10 -!- jix has joined.
23:55:15 <nooga> in that first line i almost described PVM
23:55:35 <nooga> (but it's not a real VM! i know that, remember that)
23:55:47 <nooga> it is just called VM
23:56:48 -!- Guest89116 has quit (Connection timed out).
23:57:24 -!- Guest89116 has joined.