00:05:40 ehird: check the talk page, i don't know more than what would be there... 00:05:50 doesn't exist iirc 00:06:12 having some discussion on how to categorize things doesn't seem like a bad idea 00:06:49 Esolang talk:Authors certainly exists 00:07:16 [on Lisp Machines] "Put everything else on a networked file server - for example using NFS. That's much faster than the local disk." 00:08:43 ehird: incidentally the current consensus was _not_ graue's initial preference 00:09:04 yes 00:09:14 I don't really like Graue's administration of the wiki 00:09:45 well currently it's "don't do anything unless someone emails me to tell the wiki's broken" ;D 00:12:10 heck from reading the talk page i'm not sure there _is_ a consensus 00:12:34 wow, dmenu is fast 00:13:02 it is showing the latest entries, asking for input, in less than a second, when given 57838 lines of items 00:13:24 -!- oklopol has quit (Connection timed out). 00:14:11 oh, it seems all real edits of the Authors page are by graue, indeed 00:14:50 maybe we should just ignore his guidelines :) 00:15:22 he did claim to be summarizing the consensus 00:15:55 also, i see nothing wrong with the guidelines 00:15:59 why "User:ehird" 00:16:02 my name is ehird 00:16:03 I, ehird, made it 00:16:05 not I, User:ehird 00:16:09 that's a technical detail of the wiki 00:16:41 it's because links to userpages should be marked 00:16:53 it's fine to mark it "ehird" if you link to an encyclopedic page about ehird 00:16:56 but not to a userpage 00:16:56 ais523: "links to userpages should be marked because links to userpages should be marked" 00:16:57 * ehird claps 00:17:06 Your logic is interestingly circular. 00:17:22 no, your name is Elliott Hird. And if you had enough languages on the wiki we would have created that page. 00:17:22 it's to do with things like neutrality 00:17:33 people have more leeway in userspace 00:17:51 oerjan: my name is not Elliott Hird as far as esolangs go. 00:17:59 it is ehird. 00:18:05 ais523: the esolang wiki is hardly neutral 00:18:15 most pages are written subjectively by the author 00:18:23 I know, but in theory other people could edit them, and sometimes do 00:18:28 whereas editing other people's userpages is more discouraged 00:18:34 so we're basing our policy around theory now? 00:18:58 what's that supposed to mean 00:19:18 that we should make policy based on what actually happens 00:19:41 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:20:18 that doesn't sound like a completely insane thing to want 00:20:33 * oklokok bought a J book 00:20:49 it has fractals! 00:20:49 oklokok: whuzzit called 00:20:51 also, K is better. 00:20:57 :) 00:21:50 visualization, fractals and J, i took a 5 second glance at ToC, then ordered, i prefer surprise over usefulness 00:22:09 what's it called 00:22:13 hm this _could_ be a problem. ais523 would be a prime suspect of getting his own article now, but he'd scream loudly if we used his real name in it... 00:22:23 *for 00:22:46 oerjan: his name is ais523. 00:22:55 that's nickname 00:23:01 oerjan: why does a name have to be Blah Blah? who cares what's on the certificate? 00:23:06 your definition of "name" is outdated 00:23:49 the thing is most of the older esolangers from before the wiki are referred to by real name, i think 00:24:01 so? 00:24:05 ehird is a real name 00:24:19 rubbish and lie 00:24:24 tradition is the key to happiness 00:24:43 it's rude to call people something other than they consider themselves just because their government thinks so, oerjan. 00:24:43 it's a pseudonym 00:25:48 or should I say it like this, Ørjan Johansen? 00:26:07 you are perfectly allowed to. 00:26:27 yes, because you only have one name, and consider oerjan an abbreviation for it 00:26:31 not so for me 00:27:25 i would be terribly annoyed if people called me Ville, not because it's a secret, but because it's not who i am on the internet. 00:27:33 exactly 00:27:35 for instance, Ville is finnish 00:28:02 for all intents and purposes i'm nowhereish. 00:28:09 well 00:28:20 oerjan: for consistency, I assume you refer to transgender people who haven't registered their change of gender with the government depending on whether they have a penis or not? 00:28:27 * oerjan has a strong "get off my lawn" feeling now :D 00:28:33 after all, it's not their real gender; their government says so 00:28:40 they just made it up 00:28:50 * oerjan swats ehird -----### 00:29:00 BORING DISCUSSION IS BORING 00:29:02 that's one convincing counterargument 00:29:14 oerjan: no, it's relevant to my position on the wiki policy 00:29:23 My name is Josiah "pikhq" Worcester, as far as the Internet's concerned. 00:30:59 whatever. however "ehird" and "User:ehird" would still be two different articles, one a user page and the other community-edited. 00:31:05 My name is Gregor "Gregor" Richards, as far as the Internet is concerned. 00:31:19 wait, no R? 00:31:24 oerjan: but user pages and article pages often have the exact same authors, subjectivity level, and non-neutrality 00:31:40 so why the hell have such a pedantic policy leading to many little, useless pages that people just click on to their user page from? 00:31:44 GregorR would be just Gregor, but some bastard took that already 00:31:48 also that's a guess 00:32:12 probably not true given there's not Gregor 00:32:17 *no 00:32:23 -!- ehird has changed nick to Gregor. 00:32:36 Yeah, somebody has that nick. 00:32:44 I neglected to grab it when they first cleared 'em out. 00:32:49 00:32] Gregor: group 00:32:49 [00:32] NickServ: Nick gregor is already registered to gregor 00:32:52 -!- Gregor has changed nick to ehird. 00:32:58 right 00:33:06 so maybe i remembered it and didn't guess it 00:33:32 hard to say, since it's rather obvious as you're such a proud user of your irl name 00:34:43 Yay IRL name 00:35:01 POWERWORD 00:35:12 GregorR: you love your irl name 00:35:19 I do! 00:35:37 that's what *it* said, when you asked it to marry you 00:35:37 Fun fact: The world population fits in about 33 bits. 00:35:44 (July 2008 estimate 6,706,993,152) 00:35:56 by which i mean something like "you should marry it", but one step further 00:35:58 So one of your CPU's registers, assuming a sufficiently modern CPU, can hold a unique identifier of any person in the world. 00:36:00 -!- Guest89116 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:36:05 Almost two. 00:36:11 !haskell 2^33 00:36:28 no EgoBot :( 00:36:32 Where's EgoBot? >_O 00:36:40 ehird: almost two? 00:36:47 oklokok: 64-bit cpus 00:36:53 so roughly two bist out 00:36:53 ehird: No, not "almost two". 00:36:54 *bits 00:37:01 right, right 00:37:13 Prelude> logBase 2 6706993152 00:37:13 32.64301898301364 00:37:15 pikhq: why not almost two 00:37:31 Unless you mean "could pack to IDs into a single register", which is the much more obvious definition than what I was going with. 00:37:39 Yes. :P 00:37:42 s/to/two/ 00:38:01 I was wondering if someone would mistake that, heh 00:38:26 wait what did pikhq go with 00:38:43 unordered, perhaps... 00:38:51 oklokok: takes almost two registers 00:39:03 oerjan: uh, it's trivial to order all human beings 00:39:07 oerjan: ah 00:39:09 by birth time in planck times, say 00:39:30 ehird: erm, i'm saying you save a bit if you don't order them 00:39:36 oerjan: except it's still "almost two" 00:39:39 oerjan: howso 00:39:46 you need a 1:1 correspondanc 00:39:47 e 00:40:35 ehird: basic information theory, you store every pair twice, so you need one less bit if you don't save order 00:40:35 logBase 2 (6706993152*6706993151/2) 00:40:38 64.2860379658122 00:40:49 oerjan: = almost two 00:40:56 oklokok: I don't follow 00:40:58 yes. 00:41:05 ehird: then learn basic information theory 00:41:20 oklokok: just explain why you can omit things from a unique identifier 00:41:24 only give the bits that differ? 00:41:29 could be all of them 00:41:36 ehird: it takes 1 less bit to store an unordered pair of two persons than it takes to store an ordered pair 00:41:44 hmm 00:41:56 ...why 00:42:05 well 00:42:08 first order all humans 00:42:10 because there are twice as many ordered pairs 00:42:15 then, take all pairs that are ascending 00:42:18 then number them 00:42:22 oh, of course 00:42:26 that's twice less than the amount of unordered pairs 00:42:28 oklokok: that means we can't duplicate 00:42:30 (p1,p1) 00:42:44 ehird: that only adds a small extra though 00:42:46 ehird: we ignored that, complicates it a bit, but still it's about 64.something 00:43:09 me + oerjan = redundancy 00:43:14 well (p1,p1) means that it must at least be as many bits as needed for one person 00:43:19 I can't imagine storing all of them in one bit 00:43:28 so it must be >=65... 00:43:28 huh? 00:43:34 maybe I'm stupid :) 00:43:38 you are stupid 00:43:57 _one_ person requires 32.something bits 00:44:02 if we're talking unordered pairs, that is, sets, {p1, p1} isn't one 00:45:15 oklokok: yeah, but what if the order doesn't matter but you still want duplication 00:45:20 e.g. futuristic marriage! 00:45:40 then allow it, and you'll need slightly more bits than you need for ordered pairs that allow duplication. 00:45:51 hmm yeah right of course 00:45:56 sorry I misread everfksgljsdfjg blah I'ms tupid 00:46:24 don't worry, you wouldn't believe how garbledly i read your message just now. 00:46:33 oklokok: slightly _fewer_ bits 00:48:07 right 00:48:14 1x → (x,x) 00:48:28 0x → pairs[x] 00:48:36 `ls bin 00:48:37 ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ quote \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram 00:48:50 heh, reminds me of jot 00:49:04 `ls /bin/g* 00:49:04 Slereah: yeah :P 00:49:05 No output. 00:49:09 `run ls /bin/g* 00:49:10 /bin/grep \ /bin/gunzip \ /bin/gzexe \ /bin/gzip 00:52:18 oerjan: your mom had fewer bits before she duplicated. is my response. 00:52:52 :D 00:53:05 penis-growing mothers. 00:53:41 what, the only chapter whose content was mostly new to me isn't in the exam 00:53:48 THIS IS AN OUTRAGE 00:54:22 Go and complain, "This is too easy!" 00:54:34 oklokok: j? 00:54:40 oh, no 00:55:33 MizardX: i usually slip those complaints into my exam answers 00:56:03 that's my exam style, annoying piece of shit whose always right 00:56:12 well, probably neither, but anyway 00:56:20 "(toöluvku haanen!)" 00:56:21 *who's 00:56:24 shut up ehird 00:56:30 what does it mean in finnish xD 00:56:42 nothing 00:56:45 daww 00:56:53 you can't have ä or ö if you have u 00:56:55 or o 00:57:01 dammit 00:57:14 and you can't have "vk" 00:57:22 haanen is okay 00:57:30 hyvää paivää 00:57:32 "tuluvu haanen" 00:57:40 a and ä can't coexist either 00:58:03 but it's ää 00:58:05 ehird: better 00:58:14 nooga: but it's pAivää 00:58:32 yäö and uao are enemies 00:58:47 Tuläk Universet Haanen 00:59:03 hmm that ä should be just a 00:59:10 ehird: you can't end a word with k 00:59:15 hyvää paivää i thought that means good day 00:59:15 >_< 00:59:21 Tulaä Universet Haanen 00:59:27 nooga: päivää 00:59:31 ah 00:59:42 äh 00:59:46 oklokok: good y/n 00:59:50 I think Universet is very finnish 00:59:50 also to me, "hyvää päivää" means "what the fuck" or something 00:59:54 i wouldn't use it as a greeting 01:00:11 O_o 01:00:20 perkele 01:00:24 oklokok: you should 01:00:25 ehird: tulaä has aä, universet sounds somewhat finnish 01:00:27 just like party 01:00:32 ehird: what the fuck! \o/ 01:00:43 it's only what the fuck if you use it right 01:01:03 oklokok: Tulaä Universet Haanen 01:01:06 oh, damn 01:01:08 I just repeated it 01:01:09 lol 01:01:11 ää just looks weird 01:01:27 try to synthesize some polish 01:01:29 ehird: universet is actually norwegian 01:01:40 nooga: voljka protczneiw 01:01:45 maybe swedish too 01:01:50 *protczniew 01:02:00 oerjan: like universe? 01:02:02 ehird: russian 01:02:04 oerjan: means university or universe? 01:02:07 I'm trying to get university 01:02:13 means the universe 01:02:23 nooga: rusvert kamput 01:02:24 university is universität or something in swedish 01:02:49 nooga: for sweden, herj tumasen 01:02:50 university is "universitet" in swedish 01:03:02 and also in norwegian 01:03:04 MizardX: how sweden is "herj tumasen" 01:03:11 *swedish 01:03:19 nooga: how polish is "voljka protoczniew" 01:03:23 tumasen sounds finnish ;D 01:03:24 MizardX: don't you use "ät" for similar purposes as well though? 01:03:31 well, i mean for some purposes 01:03:35 oerjan: norwegian is easy, you create words from english ones: centrum -> sentrum, electric -> elektrisk, universe -> universet 01:03:42 oklokok: no 01:03:45 oerjan: "tumasen" is finnish 01:04:00 herj would be norwegian for pillage or so 01:04:06 ehird: uhm, there lj is very not polish 01:04:21 volijka maybe 01:04:23 but means nothing 01:04:34 (imperative) 01:04:35 and protoczniew could be a russian surname 01:04:45 i was going for like, zbigniew 01:04:58 zbigniew is polish name 01:05:00 but 01:05:17 oerjan: "tumasen" is the genetive of the diminutive of nucleus 01:05:18 hm, zbigniew is always an old guy without teeth 01:05:26 "of the little nucleus" 01:05:30 nooga: how about gasperowicz 01:05:39 oh that's actually my surname 01:05:45 yeah, I was fucking with you. 01:05:55 noticed 01:06:22 MizardX: i'm sorry about never having acquired active knowledge of your language 01:06:30 nooga: those words are in the style of borrowing from latin/french, not english 01:06:41 i mean that's just rude 01:06:46 english doesn't fit so nicely :( 01:06:49 oklokok: tääimen 01:06:55 finnish y/n 01:07:09 cholerni zjadacze majonezu 01:07:14 ehird: "ääi" doesn't sound very f 01:07:20 http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=tääimen&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 / or, russian xD 01:07:29 oklokok: täämien 01:07:41 ehird: works 01:07:47 \o/ 01:07:49 victory 01:08:05 means at least "of täämis", but "täämi" means nothing 01:08:38 but but it's positively tääming with meaning 01:08:51 Druidian Donogood 01:08:55 could also be a form of the verb "täämiä", meaning something like "by täämi'ing", but the verb means nothing 01:09:05 oklokok: hahaha awesome 01:09:17 all you finns in here should call themselves täämien 01:09:22 "Oh yeah, I'm from täämis." 01:09:26 "I'm täämien. 01:09:27 " 01:09:58 "[How should I do it?]" "Täämien [it!]" 01:10:39 tää emien täämimien täämien maa 01:11:05 okokokokokokotäämienokokokokoko 01:11:22 wow it fits in so beautifully with the other letters 01:11:25 (this land of täämis täämied by pistils) 01:11:35 :D 01:12:02 finnish is a pretty manglible language compared to english. i like that about it 01:12:15 okotäämien täämienoko okotä täämiö 01:12:27 er darn 01:12:32 *okota 01:12:36 "In my small village of täämis we have a... sacred tradition, täämien[ing]; and I think before we get married, we should prove that we truly love each other by performing it." 01:12:43 "Sure, what do we have to do?" 01:13:02 "[explanation of bukkake]" 01:13:23 It's oh so useful to be from täämis! 01:13:28 manglifyingly mangling 01:13:28 In unrealistic fictional situations. 01:13:44 ehird: actually "sacred tradition, täämiminen" 01:13:54 miminen 01:13:56 beautiful 01:14:10 oh you meant "täämien" as a verb? finnish verbs usually end in an "a" or an "ä" 01:14:22 you said it could be a verb 01:14:28 [01:08] oklokok: could also be a form of the verb "täämiä", meaning something like "by täämi'ing", but the verb means nothing incompatible encoding 01:14:35 ehird: do you like "omimia"? 01:14:42 i guess 01:14:52 basically i think it should be used as a verb that means anything 01:15:05 and the justification for that is that it's to do with the village of täämien 01:15:10 no matter what the meaning is 01:15:19 (where you grew up, naturally) 01:15:46 i think we've sidetracked a slight bit 01:15:54 my proposal is excellent. 01:16:06 i mean from the original heated discussion 01:16:10 about something 01:16:32 penis growing mothers, then you complaining about university exams being easy 01:16:37 then I faked some finnish and this 01:16:52 before that, 2*person bits 01:17:53 i'm not sure any of those qualifies as a topic 01:18:18 xD 01:18:25 before that wiki polciy 01:18:26 policy 01:18:28 and namign 01:19:26 that sounds official enough 01:19:32 let's continue that 01:19:41 oerjan: GET BACK HERE AND START FIGHTING 01:20:16 * oerjan swats oklokok -----### 01:20:24 * ais523 lobs a punch at (343, 89) 01:20:45 poor tuple, what did it do to you? 01:20:55 no, it's the coordinates that I'm aiming the punch at 01:21:02 ah. 01:21:20 Hit! Cruiser goes down. 01:21:26 somewhere close to the north pole, i take 01:39:56 -!- Asztal has joined. 01:48:23 i want a bigger room 01:48:32 hmm come to think of it i just want a one-room apartment 01:48:41 mainly because it's hard to get stuff, because I can't put it anywhere 01:54:14 -!- Sneezle has quit ("good night, have fun o/"). 01:56:15 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:59:52 oh, of course! 02:06:26 it's obvious! 02:06:37 yes, but it didn't work. 02:06:47 it was also wrong! 02:06:57 yes! 02:19:16 one of the fox jokes is a suicide note, i guess the mystery is solved 02:19:48 O_o 02:20:14 is this about _why? 02:21:17 or someone else? 02:21:24 f1:"have you noticed this book is basically written by a lunatic" f2:"yup" f1:"seriously, he's way too hyperactive, if he keeps up this frantic pace, he's gonna burn out real quick" 02:21:34 ah yes 02:21:36 but 02:21:41 he said something like before 30 02:21:47 although i guess any age applies to that :P 02:21:49 f2:"burn out? he's gonna shoot himself in the head by the time he's 30" 02:22:01 alt says "out in the pickup truck" :P 02:22:08 he doesn't look 30 02:22:26 so clearly he agrees with the fox 02:30:00 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 02:43:59 oklokok: http://i32.tinypic.com/5nq179.jpg 02:44:00 discuss 02:44:38 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out). 02:44:45 from http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9c5on/where_is_why/c0c7ss1 02:44:50 could all be false 02:47:28 -!- coppro has joined. 03:04:34 wow, codegolf has posted a new challlenge 03:15:33 moon looks blue to me 03:17:11 well i hear it tends to so, once in a *hit by falling anvil* 03:17:16 *to do so 03:18:00 :P 03:18:08 that was my joke 03:19:04 then why did *i* get hit by an anvil? it's not fair i tell you! 03:20:22 also, who the heck got the idea of adding omega-3 to _bread_? this slight fishy taste... 03:20:30 xD 03:23:50 especially as the mackerel in tomato i've got on one of the slices is nowadays advertised in norway approximately as follows: "Question: how many slices with [our traditional mackerel in tomato sauce] do you need to eat in order to get your recommended daily dose of omega 3? Answer: 1" 03:27:23 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:27:36 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:28:24 (after being approached by omega 3 pill _street sellers_ in town i found that advertisement refreshing) 03:28:31 headache 03:28:40 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:28:40 ehird: hm? 03:28:46 i have 03:29:51 and thus, alas, #esoteric starts getting decimated by the swine flu 03:31:16 we will mourn you. even AnMaster, or else i'll swat him. 03:33:36 -!- Pthing has joined. 03:36:30 * oerjan hopes ehird just went to bed, and didn't have a stroke or something 03:36:41 i would have disconnected 03:36:48 ah. 03:36:54 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:37:00 IT'S ALIVE! RUN! 03:37:42 right, you don't use a bouncer nowadays? 03:37:45 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:37:56 I never have. 03:38:11 My computer is just on in perpetuity. 03:39:13 oerjan: yeah 03:39:28 i might when i switch to a laptop so i don't miss things 03:40:23 also, if you usually drink coffee, forgetting it may give a headache. just in case. 03:40:31 i don't drink coffee 03:40:41 Then you should. 03:41:39 i'm not sure whether caffeine relieves headache in itself, or if it's just the removal of withdrawal symptoms 03:41:43 i'm addicted to pepsi 03:41:57 ah, then that might still apply 03:41:59 oerjan: Both. 03:42:03 but i think i'm just tired 03:42:29 i drink like... double digit glasses of pepsi a day, i should really cut down :) 03:42:35 (note: low double digits.) 03:42:51 Specifically, caffeine can be a good treatment for migraine headaches. It can also cause migraine headaches from withdrawal or excessive dose. 03:43:19 hot chocolate made me feel alive after sleepdep yesterday; maybe I should drink it when it starts getting late 04:11:56 oerjan: (after being approached by omega 3 pill _street sellers_ in town i found that advertisement refreshing) <<< i bought those 04:12:21 i drink 2l coke a day on average 04:12:49 and half a liter of $energy_drink 04:12:59 I read that as "21" 04:13:03 Made me go "D-8" 04:13:07 about 1/2 l here 04:13:20 + 1 cup of coffee 04:14:13 o 04:14:14 o 04:14:14 o 04:14:17 it's morning 04:14:20 the morning has come 04:14:33 come has the morning 04:14:33 ... Okay, *Americans* get portrayed as being crazy about their soda. You guys... Are freaking insane. 04:15:12 oklokok: Isn't that awfully expensive in $NOT_USA? 04:15:24 (though that portrayal makes some sense -- you can readily buy a ~1L *cup* of soda here...) 04:15:35 i usually drink the 2l in about 4-5 hours, would probably drink two of those if i had an infinite supply 04:15:51 oklokok: Gimme a price! :P 04:15:56 I'm curious! 04:15:57 well how much is a regular tall glass 04:16:04 60cnt/l iirc 04:16:32 `calc 0.60 euro in usd 04:16:33 0.60 Euros = 0.85446 U.S. dollars 04:16:50 So about $1.70 for a 2L. A bit less for a 2L here, but not WILDLY less. 04:17:04 does anyone know what regular glasses are called 04:17:08 | | 04:17:09 |_| 04:17:11 no bend 04:17:13 yeah but that's the insanely cheap coke 04:17:23 most cokes are 2-3 times more expensive 04:17:34 ... Coke is a brand ... 04:17:46 coke is a drink 04:17:53 maybe i mean cola 04:17:56 coke is a drug! 04:17:56 who knows 04:18:05 co* 04:18:21 -!- augur has joined. 04:18:39 this one is called "freeway cola" 04:18:57 i don't give a shit about brands 04:18:58 in my opinion pepsi is the best 04:19:15 GregorR: I get 2L for ~$1. 04:19:15 it has almost all the cold blammo of coke and tastes way better. 04:19:17 pepsi is a completely different drink 04:19:21 im moved! :o 04:19:30 at least according to my tastebuddies. 04:19:47 pikhq: Yeah, that was my estimate. 04:19:58 pikhq: But everywhere I've been in Europe, a 2L of coke would be like 4USD, so $1.85 is pretty good :P 04:20:12 GregorR: Fair enough. 04:20:20 oklokok: it may be 04:20:23 if so, it's superior 04:20:25 you lucky bastards 04:21:25 Also, we have Mountain Dew. 04:21:33 Which is delicious and caffeinated. 04:21:44 isn't it sort of like... citrus? 04:21:57 they tried to market mountain dew here a year or two ago 04:22:00 i get the feeling it's an...immature drink 04:22:07 i don't think it took off 04:22:10 like, cola, it's mature, one unifying flavour 04:22:12 Yeah, but my favorite soda I have to import, so it's like $1.85 for a 20oz bottle :P 04:22:17 `calc 20oz in liter 04:22:17 do you mean you have (mountain dew), which is caffeinated, or that you have (mountain dew, which is caffeinated) 04:22:18 20 US fluid ounces = 0.591470591 liter 04:22:19 mountain dew seems to be like an explosion of KAZAM flavours 04:22:22 which is jutst lame 04:22:22 because we have mountain dew 04:22:23 *just 04:22:28 and it's a boring drink 04:22:33 oklokok: (Mountain Dew), which is caffeinated. 04:22:42 right 04:22:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 04:22:54 eh? eh? 04:22:56 It's a favored drink of many a programmer. 04:22:57 answer me 04:23:09 Mountain Dew is disgusting. 04:23:14 ANSWER MY QUESTIONS ABOUT IT 04:23:20 ehird: It is *sorta* citrusy. 04:23:23 GregorR: Lies! 04:23:30 pikhq: but is it mature and homely like cola 04:23:35 GregorR: your opinions on this stuff are kinda useless 04:23:37 :P 04:23:38 i mean i see cola as being on par with coffee and wine. 04:23:43 it's very mature and distinct. 04:23:55 homely like a girl? 04:24:03 dr pepper moreso, though it doesn't taste better than cola. 04:24:04 ehird: ... You sound like you've never had Dr. Pepper. 04:24:09 haha snap 04:24:13 by which i mean you could be replaced by a regexp, since you only like two drinks 04:24:28 oklokok: Wha, whyzat? 04:24:43 GregorR: i thought you only like water and soda 04:24:57 s/GregorR/grep/g 04:25:11 oklokok: And juice ... :P 04:25:11 oklokok: *moxie 04:25:16 Moxie is soda :P 04:25:32 pikhq: anyway dr pepper is very sophisticated but cola tastes better and is still sophisticated 04:25:42 pikhq: maybe i should have the non-hfcs dublin dr pepper? 04:26:05 It's good shtuff! 04:26:09 GregorR: well stop liking it, you used to be special, now you're just really picky. 04:26:26 oklokok: I'm only picky in drinks :P 04:26:39 -!- oklokok has changed nick to oklopol. 04:26:46 right, sorry, i was being a dick 04:27:08 i want to invent my own soft drink 04:27:17 with lots of cinnamon 04:27:26 yummy cinnamon 04:27:32 ehird: You need non-HFCS Dr. Pepper. 04:27:40 pikhq: how about you buy it for me 04:27:57 Sorry, but if I drive down to Dublin, I'm filling up the car and ITS ALL FOR ME. 04:28:05 -!- GregorR has quit ("Leaving"). 04:28:11 -!- GregorR has joined. 04:28:12 let's all drive there together 04:28:31 Am I less laggy now? >_> 04:28:34 (I only have had the non-HFCS Dr. Pepper when it was shipped nation-wide for a couple of months...) 04:28:57 pikhq: They have it at Greyhouse, a coffee shop near Purdue :) 04:29:15 Along with delicious Puma Kola, made from real Puma blood. 04:29:21 Let's all go to an Amsterdam coffee shop! And then an Amsterdam whorehouse. 04:29:25 GregorR: You make a compelling case for me to move. 04:29:33 + transfer :P 04:30:07 Yes. 04:30:35 I'll switch back to being a TA if you transfer and get into my class X-P 04:31:02 hmm perfect soda: caffeine, water, sugar, cinnamon, lavender, ginger spice, vanilla 04:31:41 Soooo, ginger ale mixed with cream soda :P 04:31:50 ehird: if it has bubbles and tastes a lot, i'll drink it. 04:31:53 GregorR: ginger ale is like real ginger? 04:32:00 ehird: When it's made right. 04:32:05 ehird: When it's made right it IS real ginger. 04:32:16 the good thing about my recipe is that it has no citrus 04:32:23 John Kemper's ginger ale will clear your sinuses if you smell it. 04:32:30 hmm let's do brown sugar, not white sugar 04:32:36 for extra yummy goodness 04:32:39 Molasses in soda? 04:32:55 molasses is liquid 04:32:57 what's good about not having citrus 04:33:08 oklopol: tangy and unsophisticated 04:33:11 not as smooth to drink 04:33:20 ehird: So is semen, but putting that in soda would only appeal to a very niche market. 04:33:58 i remember drinking half a liter of pure lemon juice in germany 04:33:58 i mean the fluffy brown sugar 04:34:07 thinking it was some kinda soda 04:34:13 err not "juice" 04:34:18 oklopol: ... 04:34:26 :D 04:34:40 more like... what's the term 04:34:51 GregorR: anyway doesn't my recipe sound yummu? 04:34:52 don't tell me :P 04:34:52 yummy 04:35:01 extract 04:35:02 caffeine, water, brown sugar, cinnamon, lavender, ginger spice, vanilla 04:35:03 mm 04:35:04 ehird: If you get rid of the brown sugar and lavendar. 04:35:13 GregorR: why lavender, it's smooth and nice 04:35:27 softness++ 04:36:00 GregorR: anyway have you ever had fluffy brown sugar, just tasted it 04:36:05 it's heavenly 04:36:24 Yes, I have, but I don't feel it would go with the rest of that. 04:36:39 anything goes with anything 04:36:56 Let's add Brussel's Sprouts. 04:37:02 sure 04:37:12 GregorR: why wouldn't it 04:37:26 it's smooth, it's sweet, it's not tangy 04:37:30 I am not capable of describing food combinations. 04:37:33 i'd love a brussel's sprouts soda 04:37:44 oklopol: Jones makes one around thanksgiving. 04:37:53 oklopol: In the USA and Canada. 04:37:58 oklopol: You could probably get some online. 04:38:14 does it have bubbles? 04:38:15 oklopol: It's enough to make you gag before you can even swallow any of it. It's quite vile. 04:38:18 Yes, it's soda. 04:38:19 GregorR: well, do you think mine is tangy or spicy w/o the brown sugar? it has no carbonation in it, for instance 04:38:20 :O 04:38:25 holy shit, want want want 04:38:42 ehird: Wait, wtf, it's not carbonated? I thought we were talking about soda! 04:38:49 GregorR: DELICIOUS soda. 04:38:58 ehird: SODA IS DEFINED BY CARBONATION YOU FUCKFACE 04:39:02 Who says it has to be carbonated? Flat soda is awesome. 04:39:03 :P 04:39:16 -!- augur_ has joined. 04:39:32 oklopol: They make it as a joke, in case you couldn't guess. They also have turkey and gravy soda. 04:39:32 without bubbles, tastes need to be even more interesting to be entertaining. 04:39:57 GregorR: oh 04:40:07 i'm insane, remember 04:40:11 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 04:40:12 caffeine, water, (maybe brown) sugar, cinnamon, (maybe lavender), ginger spice, vanilla, (maybe soda) 04:40:17 it's (maybe) delicious 04:40:22 i should make it 04:40:31 it'll be safe, right? :P 04:40:51 I honestly think the only unsafe thing would be handling caffeine personally. 04:41:11 http://www.colawp.com/colas/400/cola467_recipe.html opencola 04:41:17 it has stuff about the caffeine 04:41:23 OMFGSWEET 04:41:25 0.5tsp 04:41:32 GregorR: warning: cory doctorow involved 04:41:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCola_(drink) 04:41:41 Sweet, /me dons his red cape and goggles 04:41:45 opencola was a company unrelated to cola, it was promotional :) 04:42:06 ehird: Good promotion, though. :) 04:42:21 it enveloped the company /shrug 04:42:31 TOO GOOD. 04:43:10 my mother was an "aromatherapist" in like the 80s and still uses oils a shit ton, so she'll prolly have everything i need 04:43:34 (aromatherapy being basically entirely bullshit) 04:44:00 they cost a shitload 04:44:41 Yes, and the recipe uses mililiters. 04:44:47 eyp 04:44:48 yep 04:44:53 the bottles are so tiny 04:45:25 http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture98/islandspa/product4.jpg one of these bottles costs about £10 04:45:34 Neroli is a very expensive item, be prepared (US$48.52 for 5.00 ml) D-8 04:45:40 usually 04:45:45 Jeeze. 04:46:00 opencola's been around for years 04:46:03 ais523: yes 04:46:09 my recipe is uber-cheap! No neroli! 04:46:12 Man, that recipe. You need eyedroppers. 04:46:22 i'm accepting preorders now ;) 04:46:31 i'm in 04:46:43 it will be called Swig Ingest Drink: for Human Consumption 04:46:51 i'll pay that 2x pounds you owe me 04:47:03 + delivery 04:47:19 sure thing 04:48:12 or, alternatively, 5 euros & delivery, and you still owe me the 2X pounds 04:48:13 -!- augur has joined. 04:48:18 oklopol: sure. 04:48:19 hehe, I'm totally gonna make this 04:48:32 your choice 04:48:47 not like I'll make a profit. 04:49:12 since it will go in a real glass bottle! 04:49:27 a klein bottle 04:49:30 do you make the bottle around the soda? 04:49:38 oklopol: wanna up the price for the klein bottle? 04:49:39 ehird: how come you owe oxlopol 2x pounds? 04:49:41 *oklopol 04:49:45 ais523: counter game 04:49:49 ? 04:49:50 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 04:49:51 he got to #1 from far down insanely quickly 04:49:55 ais523: the pointless website? 04:49:56 ah 04:49:58 remember? 04:50:00 yes, I know 04:50:00 ehird: depends on the cost of klein bottles 04:50:03 but yeah, :P 04:50:17 and what's the value of x? 04:50:23 ais523: i don't remember 04:50:28 ais523: it's 20-something 04:50:36 i never remember what people owe me or what i owe them 04:50:53 for instance this one dude owes me something between 200 and 400 04:51:14 -!- augur_ has joined. 04:51:18 oklopol: costly 04:51:23 $56 for http://www.kleinbottle.com/top_mouth_erlen_klein.htm 04:51:27 `calc56 $ in eur 04:51:28 No output. 04:51:30 `calc 56 $ in eur 04:51:31 56 US$ = 39.3230812 Euros 04:51:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:52:11 ehird: You are horribly unrealistic. 04:52:13 oklopol: if you buy the bottle you can have the drink free :P 04:52:16 ehird: that's just the 3d projection of one 04:52:23 ! 04:52:23 Don't you know, you can't *put* anything in a Klein bottle? 04:52:24 ...yes xD 04:52:31 pikhq: you can in these! 04:52:48 ehird: No, no. It's a zero-volume manifold. 04:52:53 in 4d space :p 04:53:02 ...klein bottles = time cube 04:53:04 4th d = time 04:53:14 By a quirk of gravity, it manages to not leak. 04:53:15 ;) 04:53:21 you can put something in a klein bottle the same way you can put something in a bowl 04:53:33 you don't put things /inside/ the bowl, rather, you balance them on top 04:53:56 http://www.kleinbottle.com/top_mouth_erlen_klein.htm here, to drink, it goes through the handle 04:53:57 obviously 04:54:26 I have the mug 04:54:34 Don't buy them 04:54:36 Slereah: nice use of $80 04:54:38 why not 04:54:41 * pikhq needs to get one 04:54:42 They're expensive and you can't really use them 04:54:46 why not 04:54:48 They're very hard to clean 04:54:57 eh 04:55:00 It's easy for them to develop mold and shit 04:55:01 who needs cleaning 04:55:08 And they're a zero-volume manifold! 04:55:49 oklopol: anyway swig ingest drink (for human consumption) in regular bottle glass will be like, oh, 10 euros 04:55:53 `calc 10 euros in £ 04:55:54 10 Euros = 8.60795455 UK£ 04:55:59 maybe less. 04:56:40 `calc €10 in $ 04:56:41 10 = 14.24100 US$ 04:56:55 it's a specialist item! 04:57:02 my cost-per-item is high! 04:57:24 ok maybe like 5 euros 04:57:27 `calc 5 euros in £ 04:57:28 5 Euros = 4.30397727 UK£ 04:57:33 plus shipping 04:58:12 includes, like, stuff 04:58:55 includes sticker label that makes it look like what'd happen if you applied the chinese ripoff industry to real beer 04:58:57 :P 04:59:00 less money talk, more sending me soda 04:59:12 oklopol: i'll make it tomorrow and fridge it 04:59:22 prototype 05:00:08 oklopol: then get enough shit to make about 5 bottles 05:00:29 so hopefully in a few weeks, mail me some money and an address and it's yours :P 05:00:37 i'll send you your owed along with it 05:01:11 that sounds really complicated, can't you just send it, and i'll pay you next time i see you 05:01:35 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 05:01:37 -!- augur has joined. 05:02:00 oklopol: i say "yo
", you put money in envelope with address on and send in post 05:02:09 later, you get a drink and money in the mail. 05:02:33 hmm... does oklopol ever see ehird in RL? 05:02:46 no, although rectifying that would be fun 05:02:46 ehird: alright, which payment do you prefer? 05:03:06 oklopol: well i won't tell you for a few weeks, so 05:03:07 ais523: last time i was in GB i was 5 05:03:10 depends on how tasty it is 05:04:52 if it's tasty, i pay with the debt, if it sucks, i pay 5? 05:05:02 something like that 05:05:16 alright. 05:05:51 oklopol: if it makes me spit it out, you pay even mor since you like that shit 05:05:55 -!- augur_ has joined. 05:05:59 *more 05:06:12 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 05:06:14 Slereah: now really, klein bottles are _easy_ to clean, since you only need to clean the outside 05:07:34 -!- augur has joined. 05:07:34 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:07:43 oerjan: :D 05:08:18 oklopol: if you throw in a plane ticket you get an interview with me about it in person. 05:08:21 also another bottle. 05:08:58 Lessons learned from Bear Grylls: If you're in the wild and you have to swim, always swim nude. 05:09:11 Grill bears. 05:09:13 For food. 05:09:26 I have no doubt that he would, given the opportunity. 05:10:08 i've also learned to squeeze water out of elephant shit 05:10:33 oklopol: will you be throwing in the plane ticket? :P 05:10:37 http://www.kleinbottle.com/Tantalus.html Also awesome. 05:10:41 how much is it? 05:11:04 "suddenly the water drains out through the siphon. (In Canada, Australia, and Britain, the water drains through a syphon)." 05:11:05 eh? 05:11:08 oklopol: the plane ticket? 05:11:13 yes 05:11:22 no idea, like, 80 euros?? 05:11:26 literally no idea 05:12:13 i've been given a minimum estimate of 20e 05:12:15 oh siphon/syphon 05:12:28 both directions 05:12:36 together 05:12:52 like summed up you know. 05:12:57 oklopol: so like 40 eur realistitcally 05:13:00 *realistically 05:13:21 maybe 05:13:51 i'm teaching my children lojban along with english 05:13:59 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:13:59 they will be awesome warriors of logic. 05:14:05 oh you have kids? 05:14:07 -!- augur has joined. 05:14:09 xD no 05:14:11 i mean i will 05:14:13 if i breed. 05:14:22 or adopt 05:15:32 anyone else want to preorder swig ingest drink (for human consumption) liquid? augur? 05:15:47 what 05:15:57 ehird, you'll have to adopt. 05:16:12 or get some woman who have you and your partner's baby 05:16:24 unless they figure out how to let guys get pregnant by the time you're an adult 05:16:43 ah, because he's gay 05:16:45 i'm gay? 05:16:46 clever 05:16:47 xD 05:16:54 well, youre either gay or a girl 05:17:01 or ... not 05:17:02 take your pick fag/woman 05:17:05 XP 05:17:15 Well that was just odd :P 05:17:21 gregorr: i do my best 05:17:22 btw 05:17:25 ive moved! 05:17:33 augur: anyway it's caffeine, water, (maybe brown) sugar, cinnamon, (maybe lavender), ginger spice, vanilla, carbonation. 05:17:43 sounds like soda. 05:17:50 we heard! congrats out loud in case the silent ones weren't enough 05:17:51 unless thats a list of ingredients in order of amount 05:17:53 in which case 05:17:56 it sounds delicious 05:17:56 augur: swig ingest drink. for human consumption. 05:18:04 bottle of liquid 05:18:22 Shame it's not Klein. 05:18:33 pikhq: add cost of bottle and it is 05:18:53 Apparently you can make carbonated water with just a few 2L bottles, tubing, and yeast. 05:18:57 Klein bottles are, of course, expensive, due to the impracticality of a mold. 05:19:06 GregorR: And sugar. 05:19:13 Well yeah, but I'm considering that free. 05:19:19 You need water too :P 05:19:30 gregor: thats not carbonated water 05:19:34 thats beer 05:19:49 /moonshine 05:19:50 augur: will you buy it, eh? 05:19:53 augur: The tubing is to get the CO2 out of the yeast-sugar-water and into the plain water. 05:19:55 ehird: depends! 05:20:08 it sounds cheaper to buy carbonated water. 05:20:12 GregorR: Out of the brewery, actually. :P 05:20:19 augur: Yeast is cheap. Sugar, more-so. 05:20:21 augur: like 10 eur or less + shipping! 05:20:24 `calc 10 eur in £ 05:20:26 10 Euros = 8.60795455 UK£ 05:20:26 `calc 10 eur in $ 05:20:28 10 Euros = 14.24100 US$ 05:20:31 prolly less 05:20:34 `calc 8 eur in $ 05:20:34 Yeah, I can't imagine anything being cheaper than the above strategy ... 05:20:35 8 Euros = 11.3928 US$ 05:20:37 sounds about right 05:20:41 like $10. 05:20:44 for a bottle. 05:20:48 And when you're done, you also have a solution of ethanol. 05:20:51 (high unit price :p) 05:21:25 Also, it's extraordinarily difficult to by plain carbonated water without salt in the US. (And not even easy to buy it with salt) 05:21:47 Except for a few places e.g. New Yawk 05:21:50 just buy literal soda 05:21:55 and put it in water 05:22:12 oklopol: btw my soda won't be caramel colour 05:22:14 rather, transparent 05:22:20 pretend it's water! vodka! 05:23:16 i want alcohol free vodka :\ 05:23:24 lawl 05:23:55 oklopol: Here's how to make it: 05:24:03 1) Take 10L water 05:24:09 2) Put two potatoes in it 05:24:09 -!- augur_ has joined. 05:24:12 3) Wait four days 05:24:15 4) Remove potatoes 05:24:21 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 05:24:30 wat 05:24:35 sounds like youre making irish booze 05:24:55 augur_: will you order it! 05:24:59 $10+shipping! 05:25:01 ingest it! 05:25:14 no. 05:25:24 why not, oklopol will 05:25:30 don't you want to be him. 05:25:34 plus, i thought you said =C=10? 05:25:36 augur_: Irish booze? If they didn't have beer, they would invent vodka, yeah. 05:25:37 not $10 :| 05:25:51 no i dont want to BE oklopol 05:25:58 i want to be ON oklopol('s cock) 05:26:00 GregorR: i don't believe you 05:26:11 augur_: Don't we all :P 05:26:14 augur_: $ costs more than euro, duh 05:26:14 :D 05:26:18 uh 05:26:21 8 eur = $11 05:26:22 augur_: How very homosexual of you. 05:26:25 :) 05:26:37 augur_: how about $5+shipping 05:26:39 for an whole bottle! 05:26:42 comes with autograph! 05:26:51 thats an even better deal, surely 05:27:05 it is 05:27:16 i can't make a profit anyway since i'm not buying the ingredients in bulk 05:27:18 Oh Bear Grylls, covered in pig blood again? 05:27:54 "I remember talking to this guy at a 2600 meet once and being turned on by the fact that he was running OpenBSD." —reddit 05:28:06 did adrian lamo say that 05:28:14 http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9bwy5/im_the_daughter_of_lesbians_ama/c0c73w1 05:28:39 "Kif: "Captain, may I have a word with you?" Zapp: "No." Kif: "It's an emergency, sir." Zapp: "Come back when it's a catastrophe!"" 05:28:46 Dude, Bear Grylls is eating better than me. 05:28:46 <--- adrian lamo's autoreply 05:28:57 ^^^ even 05:29:04 augur is adrian lamo's autoreply :P 05:29:14 god dont even say that 05:29:18 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:29:30 all i get from him is "come to defcon! come have sex with me! come to california!" 05:29:45 so do it! 05:29:53 i would but im poor! 05:29:59 defcon wouldve been fun 05:30:01 So get him to pay for your ticket! 05:30:03 brb junkfood 05:30:04 :D 05:30:05 Then you're just literally a manwhore. 05:30:08 hes poor too! 05:30:12 augur_: junkliquid 05:30:14 do you even know who adrian lamo is? 05:30:14 for consumption 05:30:18 THE HOMELESS HACKER 05:30:25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Lamo) 05:30:32 that should surely clear things up with the money issue 05:30:32 thank you ehird 05:30:32 <3 05:30:39 btw, ehird 05:30:43 Run ehird, he wants your boy butt 05:30:45 augur_: was this just an excuse for you to mention knowing a celebrity 05:30:50 i think so. 05:30:51 1 euro costs me $1.42 05:31:02 horrible 05:31:13 ehird: not really! 05:31:15 `calc 10 / 1.42 05:31:17 10 / 1.42 = 7.04225352 05:31:17 i mean, hes not really a celebrity 05:31:20 7 eur 05:31:32 unless you watched TSS religiously 05:31:40 yes, 7 euros! 05:31:52 brb junk food 05:31:52 <3 05:32:10 transexual sinners 05:32:46 "ending a three-year period during which the U.S. District Court's ruling prevented him from exercising certain freedoms, including the ability to employ any privacy protection software, travel outside certain established boundaries, or socialize with security researchers." 05:33:08 ... If that's not unconstitutional, it's certainly against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 05:33:14 btw i like drinking vanilla extract 05:33:16 Not to mention creepy. 05:33:28 it's lovely 05:33:59 restraining people to within a specific region isn't controversial at least 05:34:15 vanilla 05:34:17 fuck yeah 05:34:36 Pthing: It's explicitly against the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. 05:34:45 And reaks of Soviet Russia. 05:34:46 which one 05:34:59 Freedom of travel? 05:35:48 (article 13) 05:35:52 Article 13 05:35:53 1. Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state. 05:35:53 2. Everyone has the right to leave any country, including their own, and to return to their country. 05:35:57 WTF BEAR 05:36:00 well i mean presumably 05:36:09 You just ate some freaking pork, why are you eating a cricket? 05:36:09 this cannot be in reference to imprisonment 05:36:35 pikhq: you know that almost all of the government is unconstitutional? 05:36:37 Duh. 05:36:46 we'd be uber-libertarian if we followed the constitution to the letter 05:36:56 ehird: Or have a much larger constitution. 05:37:08 pikhq: not without explicitly contradicting the founding statement. 05:37:17 in which case, fuck the constitution, we're ignoring it anyway 05:37:34 And not uber-libertarian. Social programs are constitutional. 05:37:44 (Congress has the power to provide for the general welfare) 05:37:46 in economics at least. 05:38:30 sleep time at least, oklopol: tell me to make the drink tomorrow 05:38:34 *without at least 05:39:20 in a sec 05:39:56 i'll totally tell you 05:40:07 oklopol: sarcasm? 05:40:12 nope. 05:40:17 thx 05:40:59 -!- ehird has quit. 05:41:31 well maybe it actually was sarcasm, since the "totally" makes sarcasm explicit, working as a negation, whereas i actually am going to tell you 05:41:38 or maybe that's double sarcasm 05:41:44 vending machines not working :( 05:41:44 or like 1.5 05:41:49 math is hard 05:42:11 augur_: that's what you get for moving 05:42:15 everything changes 05:42:20 oklopol: wat 05:42:23 :| 05:42:24 shut up 05:42:32 Apparently the "right to a nationality" is a human right??? 05:42:56 gregorr: makes sense in the term the UN is probably using it in 05:43:01 Except for jews 05:43:15 augur_: Ahhh, OK, yeah, that makes sense I guess. Context is everything. 05:43:33 well yeah 05:43:40 stateless people are in a fucked up situation 05:43:53 "nationality" in the governmental sense just means "belonging to some state or other" 05:44:11 What if you are born in international waters 05:44:14 not "belonging to their own state 05:44:14 Poor people born and raised --- yeah! 05:44:15 " 05:44:17 What Slereah said :P 05:44:26 citizenship from parents 05:44:28 that doesnt make you not a national. 05:44:46 as pthing said, citizenship in most firstworld countries comes from parents 05:44:54 Pthing : But what if that state is DROIT DU SOL 05:45:03 then barbarians 05:45:12 also, gregorr: interestingly there are some people who end up having no country 05:45:18 there was like 05:45:20 this guy 05:45:27 who got on a plane to some country 05:45:41 and during the flight, his country was invaded and taken over and ceased to exist 05:45:46 rendering his passport useless 05:45:57 and no im not thinking of that movie with tom hanks 05:46:19 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:46:28 lol 05:47:12 augur_: did they kill him to avoid the paperwork 05:47:16 A slightly tragicomic portrayal of this condition is the film The Terminal (2004), in which a man is forced to live in an airport due to his unrecognized citizenship status (his homeland had a military coup while he was in transit and the US government refused to recognize its new government). This story was inspired in part by the real-life story of Mehran Karimi Nasseri, who spent almost two decades in the Charles de Gau 05:47:18 lle Airport, originally due to conflicts with French law (he refused to claim being an Iranian refugee) plus also the fact he was not welcome in his countries of origin (Iran and Belgium) nor his destination (the United Kingdom). He was eventually granted and served with French immigration documents, but subsequently refused to leave the building. 05:47:51 oh that's even cooler 05:48:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehran_Karimi_Nasseri 05:48:17 i'd love to live in an airport 05:48:25 you would 05:48:27 you nutball 05:48:57 :D 05:49:19 any big building would work for me 05:49:30 ...or insanely small, that's fun too 05:49:38 now hes living in a homeless shelter 05:49:40 how horrible 05:49:43 he could live with me 05:49:50 he'd be awesome to have around 05:50:10 go to posh clubs and be like "ever seen terminal? this guy is the real thing" 05:50:44 Reading the wikipedia page on him makes him just seem like a dick. 05:50:57 a bit 05:50:58 :) 05:51:57 "Hey if you come back to Belgium we'll give you new papers, then you can go back to the UK." "I don't want to go to Belgium, I want to go to the UK." "OK, that's fine, just come back and get new papers, then you can go." "But I want to go to the UK." "Or maybe you just want to live in an airport as essentially an 18-year publicity stunt?" "Yeah, that's it." 05:52:04 im sure he could escape the airport tho 05:52:08 noone fucking notices that shit man 05:52:16 something funny about augur wanting to live with him and him being a dick cuz you know gay 05:52:18 well, on domestic flights, anyway 05:52:33 i should do stand-up 05:52:43 i totally see which strings to pull 05:52:48 with my eyes 05:52:50 oklopol: You should do get-punched-in-the-face-up. 05:53:00 you can pull my strings ;o 05:53:10 Haw, hawt 05:53:10 like, insult a random angry dude in the audience 05:53:13 until they hit me 05:53:32 * GregorR is now imagining an augur_ man-nequin 06:29:02 goddamnit 06:29:31 this internet connection is useless 06:30:47 nothing good on your internets? 06:31:39 the tubes are too small 06:33:08 -!- ehird has joined. 06:33:21 meh 06:33:23 can't sleep atm 06:33:32 well, I'm still awake, too 06:34:11 party, ehird! 06:34:20 ais523: ha, cool 06:34:23 you validate my poor decisions 06:34:28 in what way? 06:34:35 I'm going to sleep in the daytime, like I did yesterday 06:35:05 ais523: well, I've been up all day and haven't slept yet 06:35:14 -!- augur has joined. 06:35:30 and the day before the day preceding this night, I hadn't slept the whole night prior 06:35:40 so I know what, by having not slept yet, I'm getting myself into 06:35:46 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 06:35:49 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:35:54 i've been trying to go to the bank all week, but i'm always asleep while it's open 06:36:05 -!- ehird has joined. 06:36:27 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:38:00 maybe I should adopt Uberman's, right now 06:38:38 i was considering going to bed soon, but with this group pressure :D 06:39:20 :) yeah 06:39:20 it must be because this is an international channel and we live in different countries 06:39:31 oklopol: yes, there's like, 3 hours difference. 06:39:39 2 06:39:59 so is it 8 there 06:40:01 or 4 06:40:13 7:40 06:41:13 ehird: just remember coming to finland will make christmas come sooner. 06:41:19 oerjan: so 1hr. 06:41:22 for you 06:41:26 oerjan: so you haven't slept all day? 06:41:31 It's 1:41AM here :P 06:42:15 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 06:42:21 -!- augur has joined. 06:42:27 sure i slept 06:42:56 not during night time however 06:44:45 oklopol: is finland really cold 06:46:27 `google weather in Finland 06:46:28 Displays current conditions for all major cities on one page, with five-day forecast and more detailed information for each available. \ www.wunderground.com/global/FI.html - [15]Cached - [16]Similar 06:46:37 Cool, I use wunderground.com :P 06:47:05 i wonder if they know what their name implies 06:47:27 oklopol: dude that shit sounds kinda cold, it's like 18 C around here nowadays 06:47:32 and that's chilly 06:47:49 -!- coppro has joined. 06:48:16 i don't know the temperature, could check if i wasn't so tired 06:48:36 oklopol: like 10C 06:48:40 greg linked me 06:48:48 No, HackEgo did :P 06:48:49 GregorR: btw http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1347/has-a-guy-been-stuck-in-the-paris-airport-since-1988-for-lack-of-the-right-papers, not as simple as you implied about belgium 06:49:08 ehird: All I know I got from Wikipedia. 06:49:20 right, but it's more nuanced than that even on wikipedia GregorR 06:49:24 he couldn't just have gone there 06:49:37 all i know is it's warm in a t-shirt 06:49:45 oklopol: ... at 10 C? 06:49:49 what kind of guy are you 06:49:56 -!- augur_ has joined. 06:50:15 i occasionally wear a t-shirt in subzero 06:52:29 apart from weather finland sounds amazing 06:52:36 do you guys have a pirate party 06:52:55 http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ipwp8ekbh9qwu2I_5mBIGQBCNZ9w 06:52:56 12 hours ago 06:52:56 xD 06:53:15 oklopol: as of about 12 hours ago you guys have a pirate party 06:53:58 well what do you know, i thought we've had one for ages 06:54:01 you have 06:54:03 but not an official party 06:54:08 they got registered 06:54:16 right, right 06:57:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 06:59:21 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 06:59:54 -!- nescience has joined. 07:01:03 -!- mycroftiv has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:01:55 -!- evenant has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:02:24 hi guys 07:02:30 hi oklopol, ais523, oerjan 07:02:34 even GregorR 07:02:42 hi 07:02:52 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 07:03:23 hi mycroftiv 07:03:55 hi hi 07:04:22 party.... 07:04:50 tired party in slo-mo 07:05:28 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:05:44 oklopol: why 07:06:27 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 07:06:45 because i am so tired everything is slomo 07:06:59 i'm tired too 07:07:02 sleep soon 07:11:09 oklopol: green 07:11:25 thanks 07:11:33 oklopol: ;);( 07:12:44 :IIHJ] 07:12:54 sleep maybe? let's see! 07:12:55 mauve 07:12:56 -> 07:14:02 oklopol: no! 07:14:09 oklopol: you are validating my decision to not sleep yet 07:14:22 :-----------) 07:14:23 -> 07:15:39 oklopol: fuk yu 07:15:41 ais523: validate me. 07:16:04 ehird: 88cf5ba3488a2e27d329a495f9413e86 07:16:12 ais523: deep 07:16:25 ais523: what is that 07:16:37 it's an md5 hash of your nickname, for validation purposes 07:16:43 * Ping reply from ehird: 1.82 second(s) 07:16:44 woah 07:16:46 unnacceptable 07:16:52 bsmntbombdood: you're such an idiot 07:16:55 that's usual ping time 07:17:17 usual ping time <1 second 07:17:17 me to oklopol is 0.71 07:17:20 bsmntbombdood: you're pinging slower than ehird 07:17:36 ais523: hee, remember ec? 07:17:37 [CTCP] Received unknown CTCP-PING request from ehird. 07:17:43 ehird: could you ping me in lowercase instead? 07:17:44 ais523: obviously, because my isp is a douchebag 07:17:48 ais523: ask my client 07:17:49 there may be something weird about my client 07:18:18 anyway, ec just "headdesks repeatedly until he bleeds from the forehead", which makes me happy and joy 07:18:19 hmm... but if I ping you in capitals, I still get a time bac 07:18:20 *back 07:18:22 \o/ 07:18:30 i'm such a dick 07:18:30 so, why does my client not like your pings? 07:18:41 it accepts me pinging myself 07:18:51 ehird: just got 11 unknown CTCP-PINGs in a row 07:18:55 the last was in lowecase 07:18:58 that was me hitting the button, then me doing /ctcp 07:19:07 something weird is going on here 07:19:13 yeah, anuses 07:19:28 ehird: try again, I've turned the raw log on 07:19:37 Incidentally, if anybody wants to golf something: while(){if($l++){print substr $_,0,$r;print substr($_,$r,$e-$r)x$ARGV[0];print substr $_,$e}else{$r=index $_,"*";$e=index $_,"\$",$r}} 07:19:44 Deewiant: ...in K? 07:19:47 Sure! 07:20:03 wow, such hard thinking for tiredness 07:20:04 i can persist 07:20:17 Deewiant: describe what it does 07:20:26 >> :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk PRIVMSG ais523 :PING 1250749170 || >> :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.76.79 PRIVMSG ais523 :ping 07:20:30 quite a difference 07:20:46 also, when I do /ctcp ais523 ping, it adds an argument to the ping 07:20:53 heh, it doesn't accept ping without an argument for some reason 07:21:08 but it's fine with a silly argument 07:21:22 Deewiant: so what's it do 07:21:35 Shouldn't be too hard to figure out 07:21:47 Deewiant: it's 7am, tell me :| 07:21:49 I have to go to work now so I can't explain it for about an hour -> 07:21:52 Deewiant: we're all sleep-deprived here 07:21:53 i can create, i can't comprefuck you 07:22:19 i wonder if drugs make you this stupid 07:23:27 -!- kwertii has joined. 07:23:39 kwertii! 07:23:45 i'm dworacky 07:23:58 whereforth dost thou cometh 07:24:17 uhhhh.... in search of esotericism 07:24:24 the magic kind? 07:24:26 yes. 07:24:36 * ehird glances at your channel list 07:24:38 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:24:40 seems a bit programming-biased to me. 07:24:48 yes. I am a programmer :) 07:24:53 usually the people who come in here expecting esotericism have no other channels. 07:25:15 kwertii: alas, the general consensus here is, I imagine, that esotericism is a load of bullshit. we play around with esoteric programming languages. 07:25:38 so, swing and a miss 07:25:55 yeah, I know. I've been here before :) 07:26:06 hmm perhaps, I haven't slept 07:26:07 so 07:26:21 kwertii: was it a joke then, i really can't tell atm 07:26:29 uh,... nope 07:26:40 ...so why come to a channel that you know doesn't cater to what you want? 07:26:57 on the contrary; I came to a channel that I know does cater to what I want. esoteric programming language discussion. 07:27:31 but you said the magic kind of esotericism 07:27:40 ais523: we don't usually do esoteric magic rituals to create our languages, do we? 07:27:44 no.. I just said esotericism 07:27:56 08:24 ehird> the magic kind? 07:27:57 08:24 kwertii> yes. 07:27:57 which can easily apply to programming languages 07:28:03 no, this is strictly the programming kind 07:28:07 GUILTY AS CHARGED 07:28:13 i have to make Druidcode now. 07:28:18 WE WILL FOREVER CROSS BOUNDARIES 07:28:18 ehird: heh 07:28:22 programming languages can be magic. 07:28:22 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:28:27 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:28:31 kwertii: you tricksy guy :) 07:28:35 I didn't see a firm distinction there 07:28:45 kwertii: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism FYI 07:28:50 yeah, I'm aware 07:28:57 ais523: the compiler checks GPS to see if you're at stonehenge and errors out if you're not 07:29:15 that could be kind-of tricky 07:29:29 especially as I have reams of fake gpsd data, not from stonehenge though 07:29:44 it buys an iphone 3g s for you, so no cheating 07:29:59 i think hexham should count, with that name 07:30:18 we only use magic to make ham sandwiches 07:31:00 that sounds very ham-fisted 07:31:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("Conjuring some sleep, now"). 07:39:14 ais523: good pba solution 07:39:29 thanks 07:41:19 so.. what's going on in the esoteric programming world? 07:41:20 ehird, slept well? 07:41:28 AnMaster: haven't slept yet, like ais523 07:41:29 morning ais523 07:41:34 morning 07:41:34 uh uh 07:41:40 this sounds dangerous 07:41:47 yes, we could DIE. 07:41:57 * AnMaster watches ata exceptions during resume from disk 07:42:01 yet, it seems to work 07:42:01 oh, that. 07:42:08 but I'm a bit scared by it 07:42:08 they usually mean nothing ime 07:42:15 linux is buggy :) 07:42:39 ehird, there seems to be some reports about data loss on ext4 related to suspend to ram though 07:42:44 on certain chipsets 07:42:49 like the chipset in this laptop 07:45:01 mmh... I want a lisp machine... 07:45:24 ehird, who doesn't? 07:45:29 idiots 07:45:43 well, you can get one for $675 07:45:54 I thought of buying a Lisp machine back when I had money before I went back to school... till I realized it was the size and heat output of a small refrigerator and the CPU was slower than the one on my phone 07:46:11 so... it's not like they're impossible to afford... but while spending a thousand bucks on a new computer seems fine, an old lisp machine... 07:46:21 kwertii: 9 x 18 x 25 inches dimensions 07:46:23 that's not too big 07:46:25 (the old machines) 07:46:38 70 pounds though = 31 kg 07:46:40 that's about as heavy as me 07:46:48 ehird: really? ok, I dunno what I was looking at. it seemed unreasonable in any case :) maybe it was the weight. 07:46:57 kwertii: probably the newer models 07:47:00 they cost $3,000+ 07:47:01 or 07:47:04 the macivory 07:47:06 ehird, 31 kg? 07:47:08 but they're just macs running the emulator 07:47:10 wow you are light 07:47:12 really light 07:47:14 AnMaster: yep, I'm like 35kg or something 07:47:21 maybe 37 now, tops 07:47:40 ehird, I'm slightly more than twice as heavy :P 07:47:42 kwertii: but no doubt they're slow and noisy 07:47:49 very noisy - the standard solution was to run loooooong cables 07:47:49 (82 kg last I checked) 07:47:59 kwertii: the gem is in the OS and the architecture 07:48:08 ehird: can't you emulate it? 07:48:18 the OS, yes, the architecture, no 07:48:26 symbolics machines were very much all-the-way-down 07:48:31 everything was pervasive 07:50:02 kwertii: http://sfxbros.blog.so-net.ne.jp/_images/blog/_7c2/sfxbros/symbolics-3620-053.jpg a 3620 07:50:09 including symbolics keyboard, mouse and screen 07:50:23 interesting.. about what year is that? 07:50:24 (they actually made their own screens iirc) 07:50:31 kwertii: 80something, of course 07:50:34 it's SLOW 07:50:41 kwertii: they use ESDI disks 07:50:44 a precursor to SCSI 07:50:45 what does it do at the sub-OS level that's cool? 07:51:12 kwertii: the architecture is lispy, it has built-in support for tagged pointers, helpers, iirc, for GC, ... 07:51:23 cdr coding 07:51:26 hardware GC? awesome 07:51:31 kwertii: not hardware GC 07:51:33 but support for it 07:51:40 the actual gc was at OS level, using the hardware support 07:51:48 kwertii: but it has instructions to do taggedp ointers 07:51:50 what kind of CPU? 07:52:01 it'd do the operation on the pointer, while simultaneously checking the tag 07:52:09 kwertii: custom, of course! 07:52:14 that's what made them lisp machines 07:52:35 kwertii: in fact, they made everything themselves, apart from iirc the keyboard material 07:52:45 despite making all their screen mechanics, they decided that was just too much 07:53:15 apparently, they're really, really loud and power hungry the 36xx series 07:53:30 but the macivory machines arne't lisp machines, so lame, and the XL machine is both loud and costs $3,500 and is huge 07:53:32 *aren't 07:53:38 kwertii: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt btw 07:53:49 "If you really want a collector's item, we have a number of different 36xx" is the line about the machines i'm talking about 07:53:52 weigh up to 400 pounds! 07:53:59 (AnMaster: 181kg) 07:54:00 huh. you could emulate all that hardware... 07:54:09 kwertii: no shit 07:54:15 there are lisp machine emulators 07:54:25 ehird, heh 07:54:31 ehird: I suggested this a minute ago and you said "the OS yes but not the rest" 07:54:40 kwertii: you can emulate everything of course 07:54:44 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:54:46 but not the experience 07:54:49 ahh 07:54:56 if there's a layer below, that's a limitation 07:55:01 with a lisp machine, everything is there at every level 07:55:03 an emulator won't keep your coffee cup warm 07:55:22 or have the cops show up thinking you're growing marijuana in your closet from your power bill.. 07:55:27 haha 07:55:47 kwertii: just get a bunch of them. the power bill software is written in c 07:55:49 so it'll overflow 07:59:56 .ehird so what do you think of Clojure? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:05 it basically sucks. 08:00:15 .. any particular reason? 08:00:36 i could write a book about it, but i haven't slept yet so i'm not going to 08:00:41 :p 08:01:26 it fixes my #1 problem with CL, the lack of libraries, and the #2 problem, the massive spec bloat deriving from design-by-committee 08:01:44 but I admit I haven't done any nontrivial projects with it yet, so I don't know how well it will hold up 08:01:58 i guess, if you're a practicalist who can deal with the vomit-worthy pile of stench that is using java, then it's fine 08:02:00 i'm an idealist who can't 08:02:11 Java runtime != Java the language 08:02:19 well aware, thank you 08:02:32 the runtime and associated baggage nontheless exists and i find it intolerable 08:02:33 don't get me wrong, I'd prefer something that compiled to machine code if it were available... 08:03:59 i don't see lisp as the future 08:04:08 it compromises the common usability for the less common usability of macros 08:04:20 agree 08:04:20 the macros should be slightly more awkward than coding; lisp gets this dead backwards 08:04:46 heh 08:04:46 i like my syntax 08:04:55 right now (as others here can attest) I'm obsessed with the K language 08:05:06 CL is frozen in 1984 or so, which is part of the problem, and Scheme devs are more into writing cool recursive fractal algorithms than actually, say, interacting with a user 08:05:21 i like fractals 08:05:25 me too 08:05:52 if you know of a job where you get paid to write fractals, pls let me know :) 08:06:06 yay, a language that's good for getting jobs! 08:06:12 i'm switching to C++. 08:06:19 ugh. manual memory alloc 08:06:21 ehird, s/C++/Java/ these days :/ 08:06:24 or wait 08:06:28 maybe VB.NET by now? 08:06:29 AnMaster: but we're discussing java 08:06:32 I hate having a job as much as the next guy, but I gotta pay the rent... 08:06:32 kwertii: gets jobs 08:06:33 ehird, oh right 08:06:35 jobs are nice 08:06:49 job security especially from all the pointless unmaintainable code you'll inevitably write. 08:06:49 and ideally I'd rather not be stuck using a suck language for it 08:07:11 i would never write software products anyway, only backend code 08:07:19 so it doesn't bother me much 08:08:01 (i have concluded that the selling of unscarce goods like software is at best pointless (as it can be, morally, made more or less impossible) or worst immoral) 08:08:22 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 08:08:32 ehird: couldn't agree more. but alas, I'm not independently wealthy, so I am forced to vend my labor at the crass altar of capitalism.. :( 08:08:45 i don't mind capitalism. 08:08:49 but selling software contradicts capitalism. 08:08:54 capitalism is about scarce goods 08:09:20 ehird: if someone would pay me to write GPL code, I'd be fine with that 08:09:27 but i'm crazily principled and as of yet under the age of employment, so what do i know :) 08:09:29 kwertii: gpl :( 08:09:44 s/gpl//g 08:10:07 ideally there'd be no copyright and I wouldn't have to license things... but, MIT 08:10:11 yeah, I remember that... under age of employment.. that was nice 08:10:28 nowadays if I don't get money, I starve. that would suck. a lot. 08:10:28 quite 08:10:33 starving is quite bad 08:10:46 though it's easy to not starve 08:10:53 harder to do the rest 08:10:58 I've also grown fond of sleeping indoors 08:11:09 what country do you live in? 08:11:15 USA, SF, California 08:11:27 you? 08:11:46 in the uk at least it's perfectly possible to live in a house with food without working, although of course this is being a leech 08:12:30 it's a bit harder here. nobody gives a fuck if you don't have a place to live. 08:12:52 there are homeless shelters, but they're not exactly pleasant 08:13:01 i always just assumed other places have a similar system 08:13:07 ha. no. :) 08:13:11 it's perfectly possible to live in an ok house quite comfortably here without working 08:13:17 well i say quite ok 08:13:19 not that okay, but 08:13:25 must be nice 08:13:45 i guess in the us that'd fail due to people going "taxes! ohhhhhhh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!" 08:13:53 yep, pretty much 08:14:30 also, the concept of the role of govt is rather different here compared to Europe... there was a huge backlash against the welfare state model starting with Reagan in the 1980s to the present 08:14:54 it's insane how far-right the us is 08:15:17 yet i've seen someone not entirely off their rocker claim that they think most of the world would consider obama far-left 08:15:31 then again they also think he wasn't born in the usa, so i guess he is off his rocker 08:15:40 *shrugs* 1) it's not as bad as foreigners think, and 2) the country is split about 50-50 between right and left. the right are just much better organized and more vocal, so their presence is overstated in the media 08:16:12 (1) seriously, man, i follow your politics. the only way it could be fine is a reality distortion field when you enter 08:16:15 (2) but your "left" is democrats 08:16:20 democrats are right wing too 08:16:29 my city supervisor here in SF is from the Green Party 08:16:36 i mean, i say this in the uk, and the UK is right-wing! 08:17:02 but SF is far-left by US standards.. 08:17:04 kwertii: the greens are okay from what i gather 08:17:15 well, Cynthia McKinney is insane 08:18:08 the center here is definitely to the right of the center in Europe, incl the UK 08:18:38 basically, i consider the only countries with an acceptable political climate to be the european social democracies 08:19:04 eh. I lived in Germany for a year, it wasn't that great politically 08:19:12 i wouldn't class germany under that 08:19:19 it was run by Social Democrats at the time.. 08:19:44 err, that's just a name 08:19:49 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 08:19:50 -!- AnMaster_ has joined. 08:21:18 does Scandinavia count? 08:21:25 prolly 08:21:34 yes. 08:21:39 "It consists of the kingdoms of Norway, Sweden, and Denmark.[2] While some authorities argue for the inclusion of Finland and Iceland" 08:21:43 including those 08:21:46 they seem nice politically, but most Scandinavians I've met irl were *ahem* not very friendly 08:22:24 I wouldn't want to live there 08:22:25 -!- ehird has left (?). 08:22:35 -!- ehird has joined. 08:22:38 as i was about to asy 08:22:53 * ehird glances at AnMaster, Deewiant, FireFly, fizzie, Ilari, ineiros, MizardX, olsner and oklopol 08:22:56 oh, and possibly MigoMipo 08:23:07 kwertii: want to revise your statement about scandinavians? : 08:23:08 :) 08:23:10 * FireFly isn't unfriendly :< 08:23:11 I don't know them 08:23:16 Hooray for highlighting everybody for no good reason 08:23:16 50% of them were perfectly nice 08:23:16 ehird: Yup, Sweden. 08:23:20 -!- AnMaster has quit (Nick collision from services.). 08:23:22 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster. 08:23:22 Deewiant: uh, for very good reason 08:23:30 50% ranged from indifferent to openly hostile, for no apparent reason 08:23:31 you're all scandinavians 08:23:37 kwertii: omg! people are dicks. 08:23:39 obviously, you must've offended those scandinavians somehow 08:23:52 more than the usual "people being dicks" level 08:24:07 -!- Gracenotes_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:24:14 are you suggesting that scandinavia's weather makes people assholes :) 08:24:15 ehird: But their input isn't needed: you could just say "about 25% of the people here are Scandinavian", or whatever 08:24:20 kwertii, where was this? 08:24:26 Deewiant: that is much less directly convincing 08:24:33 because it's vagguer 08:24:40 Berlin. I met a Norweigan girl in Berlin, asked her whether it was very different from Norway. She said, "oh yes, everyone is so *friendly* here! It's not like this in Norway..." my American friend and I looked at each other, jaws agape.. 08:24:50 gah, bad lag after reconnecting 08:25:06 the context for " kwertii, where was this?" thus was " 50% ranged from indifferent to openly hostile, for no apparent reason" 08:25:11 in case it arrived much much later 08:25:50 AnMaster: I was going to a German language school in Berlin that had many Scandinavian students. half were perfectly nice and friendly, the other half were indifferent / openly hostile, even to the other Scandinavians." 08:26:24 Most Finns are "indifferent" to each other 08:26:39 I don't know about "openly hostile", maybe that's just what it looks like to an American :-P 08:26:50 Deewiant: yes, I suspect that is it. 08:26:59 kwertii, not representative of the actual countries I think 08:27:14 btw you should ignore AnMaster, he's stupid :) 08:28:05 and you should ignore ehird for being silly :P 08:28:08 But anyway, back to while(){if($l++){print join(substr $_,0,$r),substr($_,$r,$e-$r)x$ARGV[0],substr $_,$e}else{$r=index $_,"*";$e=index $_,"\$",$r}} 08:28:19 AnMaster: I dunno. the Norweigan girl described Berliners as "friendly". 08:29:01 Deewiant: what does it do 08:29:35 ehird: It finds the indices of * and an optional $ on the first line, then for each line after that prints the range up to where the * was, repeats the *-to-$ range argv[0] times, then prints the $-to-EOL range 08:29:42 why 08:29:51 Why not 08:29:56 why 08:30:06 Because there's no good reason why not 08:30:53 dfg 08:31:18 -!- mycroftiv has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:31:18 -!- MizardX has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:31:19 -!- Judofyr has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 08:31:54 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 08:31:54 -!- MizardX has joined. 08:31:54 -!- Judofyr has joined. 08:31:56 It's essentially expanding a simple description of simple Befunge 08:32:18 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 08:33:01 -!- mycroftiv has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:33:11 My guess is that that can be stripped to half of that in Perl 08:33:12 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 08:39:04 you guys have any intuitions on whether/how different human languages could be said to have different "complexities" (for some definition of "complexity")? 08:39:18 See Ithkuil 08:39:46 Deewiant: this is someone in here? 08:39:59 No, it's a language :-) 08:40:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithkuil 08:40:11 Deewiant: oh :) 08:40:25 -!- ehird has quit. 08:40:49 I'm studying linguistics now, and the general party line in the field is that it is horribly politically incorrect to suggest that one language is more "complex" than another 08:43:09 Deewiant: ... wow. awesome. I just have to show people this grammar, and they will be disabused of that idea 08:43:19 :-D 08:44:46 IIRC Ilaksh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilaksh) has simpler phonology but more complex grammar 08:45:00 though the mainstream linguist would reply that it's a toy language, and that "real" human languages are all equivalently complex 08:45:16 Yep, they probably would 08:45:24 I can't think of a good way to formalize complexity in the context of human language 08:45:43 Yeah, it's not very obvious 08:47:57 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 08:57:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:00:48 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 09:16:45 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:18:05 hi guys :) 09:27:37 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:38:42 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 10:00:15 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:29:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:29:50 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 10:30:03 -!- augur has joined. 10:44:47 -!- kwertii has quit ("goodnight"). 10:48:16 -!- MigoMipo has quit. 11:14:30 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:20:31 -!- M0ny has quit. 12:09:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:09:33 Hm, ehird's not in here :( 12:20:20 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 12:21:53 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:18:25 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:18:46 -!- augur has joined. 13:19:47 -!- mtve has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:24:41 -!- augur has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:24:46 -!- AnMaster has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:24:46 -!- nescience has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:24:46 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:24:46 -!- Slereah has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:24:46 -!- ineiros has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:25:23 -!- augur has joined. 13:25:23 -!- AnMaster has joined. 13:25:23 -!- nescience has joined. 13:25:23 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 13:25:23 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:25:23 -!- ineiros has joined. 13:25:57 -!- Leonidas has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:25:58 -!- cmeme has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:26:59 -!- Leonidas has joined. 13:26:59 -!- cmeme has joined. 13:28:13 -!- jix has joined. 13:28:41 -!- jix has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:28:42 -!- HackEgo has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:29:14 -!- Sgeo has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:29:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:29:15 -!- GregorR has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:29:15 -!- Pthing has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:29:16 -!- Ilari has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 13:29:20 -!- jix has joined. 13:29:20 -!- HackEgo has joined. 13:29:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:29:42 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 13:29:42 -!- GregorR has joined. 13:29:42 -!- Pthing has joined. 13:29:42 -!- Ilari has joined. 13:29:54 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:44:13 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 14:11:49 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:28:11 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 14:39:54 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:43:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:08:14 Installing VirtualBox, which requires disconnecting. BRB. 15:11:53 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:11:57 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 15:20:16 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 15:24:43 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:28:50 Hmph, I tried a regex variation but it only became longer; I fail at Perl golf 15:30:37 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:35:42 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:39:31 -!- EgoBot has joined. 15:56:22 * AnMaster goes and decreases cache misses in cfunge :P 15:56:28 just to annoy ehird and Deewiant 15:56:35 Huh? 15:57:02 now, checking for if fingerprint is implemented will soon have a unit stride of a funge cell :D 15:58:44 Hmm, what do you mean 15:59:27 Deewiant, currently my scheme for checking for fingerprints is simple, I have a struct with { fingerprint, pointer to loader function, implemented opcode list} basically 15:59:32 lots of them in an array 15:59:44 I found that a linear scan was faster than a binary search 15:59:47 Ah, and you just did an search through that 16:00:04 Deewiant, yes, binary search is slower than a linear search with abort if we went too far 16:00:07 anyway 16:00:10 now I'm doing: 16:00:16 cell Fingerprints[]; 16:00:17 and 16:00:26 DataStruct Data[] 16:00:27 basically 16:00:55 Deewiant, because on 64-bit platforms you could fit about 1.5 such structs in a cache line before 16:01:06 which is clearly suboptimal when searching through them 16:01:26 better find the index you want, then look up the entire data thingy for that only 16:03:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:07:27 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:09:07 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:14:57 Is it possible to close an fd in /proc/$pid/fd/ from outside the program somehow 16:18:35 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:18:35 Deewiant, inject things with gdb? 16:18:51 Deewiant, but to me, doing so sounds like a seriously bad idea 16:18:51 why do you want to do that 16:19:33 Starting a program with "foo &" and wanting to close its stdin 16:20:06 okay, for some reason the unit stride access slowed it down according to profiling 16:20:13 In this case I can just modify the program to exit if it gets a certain input line, but I'm wondering if that'd be possible 16:20:13 ah I think I see... 16:20:58 possibly hardware prefetcher was smart enough to prefetch in the normal case, but now that we needed to find the matching entry in the other array as well that caused a cache miss? 16:21:12 That'd be my guess 16:21:23 You can try allocating one contiguous block for both arrays 16:21:30 But it might still fail if it gets too big 16:21:45 Deewiant, you mean storing them both in a struct after each other? 16:22:21 Actually I meant just "fingerprints = malloc(size of fingerprints + size of data); data = &fingerprints[size of fingerprints];" 16:22:37 A struct might have some padding, after all ;-P 16:22:47 Deewiant, yep, on my old pentium 3 the unit stride version is faster 16:22:59 and iirc that lacks hardware prefetch 16:23:25 Deewiant, well, since they are stored as static const 16:23:26 So add a configuration entry to your CMake, asking the user if his processor can prefetch ;-) 16:23:29 :P 16:23:54 Deewiant, nah, the difference codewise between the different variants is too large 16:24:13 If they're constants the struct way still works 16:24:14 Deewiant, fun thing: even on my intel core 2 duo laptop, gcc generates a cfunge that is significantly faster 16:24:18 than icc 16:24:51 Deewiant, indeed. I was just saying the malloc way didn't 16:24:58 also avoiding padding? 16:25:02 I assume you are joking 16:25:10 Yep 16:25:22 since you basically are suggesting I should use unaligned access to it 16:25:28 You might want to optimize for memory use instead of CPU time 16:25:30 ;-) 16:25:45 Although they're pointers so they're pretty much guaranteed to be aligned anyway 16:25:53 Deewiant, I thought about an option for that. 16:25:59 Or no they aren't, never mind 16:26:01 I mean 16:26:15 I know what you meant 16:26:16 an option for memory or speed 16:26:25 compile time of course ;P 16:26:33 would be useful for "embedded cfunge" ;P 16:27:11 but too much work for too little gain (currently at least) 16:29:28 -!- Judofyr has left (?). 16:30:36 Deewiant, really, concurrent funge is irritating, it isn't very useful (all IPs blocks on blocking IO...) and it prevents JITing, since you can't do stuff like constant folding the program or such 16:30:58 or optimising idioms like >:#,_ 16:31:30 :-P 16:31:58 You can still optimize in the single-threaded case 16:32:23 Deewiant, yes, but that basically means two implementations 16:32:27 one JIT and one interpreter 16:32:33 that you shift between 16:32:38 Or do something like suspend an IP doing >:#,_, run the others until they would do something side-effecting, count how many characters could've been output in that time, output that many 16:32:58 Deewiant, heh... 16:33:02 AnMaster: Well yes, if you want to JIT the whole thing 16:33:36 Deewiant, optimising idioms would probably best be implemented as a part of a JIT 16:34:01 because, looking for idioms would be quite expensive if you did it every time you hit > in an interpreter 16:34:05 or such 16:34:13 or tracking last few instructions executed 16:34:53 Deewiant, just adding a tick counter makes a measurable difference in cfunge. 16:35:18 (the fact that that difference is around 0.010 shows just how fast cfunge is at mycology :P) 16:37:42 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 16:37:59 Desktop: 16:38:00 $ time ./cfunge -b ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null 16:38:01 real 0m0.057s 16:38:01 user 0m0.034s 16:38:01 sys 0m0.018s 16:38:04 laptop: 16:38:13 $ time ./cfunge -b ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null 16:38:13 real 0m0.038s 16:38:13 user 0m0.028s 16:38:13 sys 0m0.012s 16:38:18 No, it just shows how slow your computer is :-P 16:38:21 with clean env (env -i) 16:38:29 $ env -i bash --norc --noprofile -c "time ./cfunge -b ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null" 16:38:29 real 0m0.032s 16:38:29 user 0m0.008s 16:38:29 sys 0m0.020s 16:38:32 that is on laptop 16:38:48 Deewiant, just showing how much faster mylaptop is 16:38:54 my laptop* 16:39:26 I guess that's without exact bounds 16:39:45 * AnMaster looks 16:39:57 nop 16:40:06 Desktop $ ./cfunge -v 16:40:06 cfunge 0.9.0 [+con +trace +exact-bounds +ncurses hardened debug asserts p:64 c:32] 16:40:16 Laptop $ ./cfunge -v 16:40:16 cfunge 0.9.0 [+con -trace +exact-bounds +ncurses hardened p:64 c:32] 16:40:17 hm 16:40:21 hardened? 16:40:24 that seems wrong 16:40:27 * AnMaster looks at that 16:40:40 wait was wrong directory on desktop 16:40:57 On desktop: cfunge 0.9.0 [+con -trace +exact-bounds +ncurses p:64 c:32] 16:40:58 anyway 16:41:16 it seems like ubuntu modified stuff to always use the checking versions of some libc functions 16:41:23 which is what the hardened switch normally does 16:41:35 so I guess it could be even faster 16:42:18 Deewiant, let me check without exact bounds :P 16:42:20 Interestingly low user time on that last one, then 16:42:30 real0m0.024s 16:42:30 user0m0.012s 16:42:32 Is typical here 16:42:52 Deewiant, well, I was not in debug directory for that, I managed to change terminal tab between that and checking the version 16:43:01 so times above are correct 16:45:09 Deewiant, this may be because I had to turn off hpet on my laptop due to it being buggy 16:45:37 regression in all kernels after 2.6.24 for this chipset. bug report exists 16:46:17 Deewiant, so user timing may be inexact on there 16:46:51 Deewiant, in fact, seems to be multiples of 0.008 unless at least 0.020 16:47:19 or 0.004 so that theory didn't hold 16:47:41 oh btw: 16:47:44 $ env -i bash --norc --noprofile -c "time ./cfunge -Fb ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null" 16:47:44 real 0m0.010s 16:47:44 user 0m0.008s 16:47:44 sys 0m0.004s 16:47:58 that is without exact bounds, without concurrent funge support, and without fingerprints 16:48:15 with fingerprints that ends up at: 16:48:18 $ env -i bash --norc --noprofile -c "time ./cfunge -b ../mycology/mycology.b98 >/dev/null" 16:48:18 real 0m0.022s 16:48:18 user 0m0.004s 16:48:18 sys 0m0.020s 16:48:30 oh yeah, I forgot, it also wasn't linked against ncurses 16:48:41 so fewer *.so to load 16:51:25 Hrmph, how should I talk to a process started as a background job 16:51:34 Sockets? 16:51:38 Deewiant, well, there are several ways 16:51:43 depending on how much you need to tell it 16:51:53 signals, sockets, fifos for example 16:51:59 IPC, shared memory 16:52:21 watching a directory with gamin or similar to look for new request files in it? ;P 16:52:24 I just want as simple a way as possible to give it textual input from a shell script 16:52:32 Deewiant, ok signals is a bad idea then 16:52:40 btw 16:53:09 I deigned a protocol for arbitrary data using just SIGUSR1 and SIGUSR2 16:53:10 So I can start it as 'foo &' and then do something ideally as simple as 'echo bar >> something' and it'll read "bar" immediately 16:53:20 crazily slow and sluggish 16:53:30 I tried mkfifo, but it doesn't work since it doesn't stay open 16:53:46 Deewiant, mkfifo then keep that file open from inside your source? 16:53:48 as in 16:53:52 a fifo on the file system 16:54:09 but of course, pipe() works if both programs will run all the time 16:54:13 Ideally I could keep this as reading from stdin 16:54:26 I'd just like to note that, for all its flaws, Erlang makes for nice servers. 16:54:46 Erm. In spite of all its flaws. 16:54:52 Erm. 16:54:55 Deewiant, for any data over SIGUSR[12]: Let SIGUSR1 be equal to the bit 0, and SIGUSR2 be equal to the bit 1 16:54:56 then 16:54:57 Imma get coffee. 16:55:00 send SIGUSR1 16:55:04 AnMaster: Yes, that's rather obvious. 16:55:07 wait for a confirmation using SIGUSR1 16:55:15 since otherwise signals might be merged 16:55:21 then send the next and so on 16:55:45 if the other process want to send to you, use SIGUSR2 as kind of "Now it's my turn to talk" 16:56:18 so for receiving process: SIGUSR1 is confirm, SIGUSR2 is "I want to send" 16:56:33 hm 16:56:47 there may be a race condition for confirming SIGUSR2 16:56:51 not sure how to handle that 16:57:32 Deewiant, anyway, I suggest shared memory. It is the coolest. 16:57:40 and, most tricky I guess 16:57:51 Sorry, I want simplest :-P 16:57:51 but also fastest 16:58:06 Speed is uninteresting, the data amount is minimal 16:58:21 well 16:58:23 So I can start it as 'foo &' and then do something ideally as simple as 'echo bar >> something' and it'll read "bar" immediately 16:58:25 simple 16:59:20 use mkfifo to create a file on the file system 16:59:30 make sure to open it in non-blocking mode if you need that 16:59:39 then listen on it or such 16:59:42 -!- FredrIQ has joined. 16:59:44 using select() or whatever 16:59:50 Deewiant, then echo stuff into that fifo 16:59:57 Deewiant, seems simple enough to me 17:00:09 have done it a few times myself using mkfifo(1) in bash scripts 17:01:24 Meh, select() 17:01:34 That's not simple :-P 17:01:37 Deewiant, see fifo(7) too 17:01:41 Deewiant, ok, what about poll 17:01:43 or epoll 17:01:50 poll has a nice interface 17:01:53 "gets" is simple 17:01:55 I tried mkfifo, but it doesn't work since it doesn't stay open 17:02:02 what do you mean 17:02:04 with that 17:02:21 Deewiant, select is simple if you use a high level language :P 17:02:36 heck, even epoll is simple in something like erlang 17:02:39 "mkfifo foo; cat foo &; echo a >> foo" -> cat hits EOF and dies 17:02:47 Deewiant, don't do it like that 17:02:55 if you want to do it in a shell script 17:03:06 use exec to open it on a fd 17:03:10 like fd 4 or whatever 17:03:21 then do a read on that 17:03:36 exec? 17:03:58 Deewiant, in POSIX shells exec is stupidly overloaded 17:04:14 exec foo is the normal variant 17:04:17 but 17:04:45 * AnMaster looks for the syntax 17:05:04 exec 4 I believe it is 17:05:16 to open it on fd 4 in the shell itself 17:06:17 -!- FredrIQ has changed nick to FIQ. 17:07:07 Deewiant, anyway, better tell me what language you are coding this in 17:07:26 both for the controlling app and for the app that is supposed to get those messages 17:07:46 A shell script on the other side, Python is the app getting the input 17:08:04 Deewiant, tricky, that prevents using unix sockets I guess 17:08:33 I guess the mkfifo is the easiest way to go on the shell script side 17:08:34 since, I can't think of a way to do that in shell 17:09:04 Deewiant, yes, and I would assume python abstracts away the horrible interface of select() and similar 17:09:17 I'm sure it does, but I don't know anything about that so I'll use them directly 17:09:34 The abstractions are what I was using before, and they close FIFOs :-P 17:09:36 Deewiant, and yes, trying to read from a closed fifo won't work 17:10:05 Surely it's not the "echo foo >> fifo" that kills it? 17:10:20 Deewiant, hm? 17:10:49 Deewiant, what is the >> for there 17:10:50 I mean, can I do "mkfifo fifo; proggy-that-does-clever-polling-or-whatever fifo; echo foo >> fifo; echo bar >> fifo" 17:10:54 append to the end of the fifo? 17:10:56 what 17:11:10 I think >> makes no sense for a fifo :P 17:11:14 My intuition would be that >> doesn't close it 17:11:37 Deewiant, >> means "append to end of file, instead of truncate file and append to that" 17:11:38 But if you say so, it's the same as > then 17:11:45 Yes, I know 17:12:06 Deewiant, anyway, your python process will get an EOF message. so handle that then as "end of message" 17:12:18 and wait for future stuff to be sent to the fifo 17:12:23 iirc that should work 17:12:38 So if I do select([fd], [], []) 17:12:50 And then just read a line from the fd 17:12:53 Will it work? 17:13:07 Deewiant, try it and see? I don't remember the exact results of that 17:13:24 Deewiant, possibly you will have to open it in non-blocking mode 17:13:31 The kernel maintains exactly one pipe object for each FIFO special file that is opened by at least one process. The FIFO must be opened on both 17:13:32 ends (reading and writing) before data can be passed. Normally, opening the FIFO blocks until the other end is opened also. 17:13:33 says 17:13:35 man 7 fifo 17:13:37 and 17:13:41 A process can open a FIFO in non-blocking mode. In this case, opening for read only will succeed even if no-one has opened on the write side yet, 17:13:41 opening for write only will fail with ENXIO (no such device or address) unless the other end has already been opened. 17:14:00 Deewiant, but yes I think you will get an EOF every time the other end is closed. And? 17:14:03 Just handle it! 17:14:37 Deewiant, just don't open it read *and* write, because that is implementation defined 17:14:44 or rather 17:14:45 undefined 17:14:49 but linux defines it 17:14:58 but it isn't what you want to happen I think 17:21:48 Alright, got it to work, thanks 17:30:43 -!- ehird has joined. 17:30:56 ahh, I feel gerat 17:30:58 *great 17:31:06 slept from about 9am-4:30pm 17:32:14 00:45:00 though the mainstream linguist would reply that it's a toy language, and that "real" human languages are all equivalently complex 17:32:14 ask augur 17:32:41 He's not been here for about 7 hours 17:32:48 (kwertii, that is) 17:35:11 everyone logreads 17:35:47 anyway, I just want to say that 09:00-16:30 is a wonderful sleep schedule, and everyone should adopt it 17:36:42 I slept from 3am to 5pm :( 17:37:02 that can't work well 17:37:43 it didn't really help either 17:38:02 i've never felt so good on seven and a half hours of sleep 17:38:05 I either forgot to set my alarm, or it failed to wake me 17:38:41 sometimes I go to bed really tired, and wake up fully refreshed after four hours of sleep... it's perplexing 17:38:43 i woke up naturally 17:41:09 http://pastebin.ca/1536576 My first bit of non-trivial Erlang. Whoo. 17:41:30 why are you torturing yourself 17:41:41 shit, wow, that's verbose 17:41:49 that could be like 50 lines of haskell 17:42:07 It's a lot of process spawning. 17:42:24 And explicit recursion. 17:42:30 step 1, spawn processes 17:42:32 step 2, ??? 17:42:34 step 3, scalability! 17:43:56 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9c0gf/clojure_the_zombiereanimated_corpse_of_lisp/c0c8irt / Yay lisp machines! 17:44:08 the loper os guy is making an FPGA flash disk card for one :) 17:44:11 too cool 17:46:08 gah, now I have to save up 17:47:28 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:49:24 -!- puzzlet has joined. 17:59:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:59:57 http://www.asciilifeform.com/paralleleye/eye.html / this head mounted display looks awesome 18:00:11 720x280! although monochrom 18:00:12 e 18:01:29 (GregorR: http://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/lizzy/lizzy/pe-hat.html) 18:01:34 Hats + head mounted displays! 18:02:19 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:02:34 ("16 red scale, and supposedly looked like a 60″ screen at 5 feet." sweet) 18:06:54 grr, current graphic interfaces suck so much 18:07:16 i'm going to write a python thingy that lets me do "grid[x,y] = z" as a formula, with variables like frame 18:07:36 grid[x,y] = pixels[x,y][frame%2] 18:07:39 voila, flicker 18:07:53 also, updating in real time, I hate pressing run 18:08:13 now how do I embed pygame inside tk 18:10:10 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:10:12 use a hammer 18:10:41 Always a good answer. 18:13:24 quite 18:13:53 ugh, tk is so slow 18:16:05 pikhq: do you grok tk? 18:17:13 Yes. 18:17:32 I may not grok foreign-language bindings thereof, though. 18:17:51 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 18:18:56 pikhq: first, how can I make typing into the text widget not feel like wading in molasses? 18:19:20 ehird: ... What the *fuck* did you do? 18:19:26 Use OS X, probably. 18:19:36 The platform that nobody in FOSS gives a royal shit about. 18:19:40 I repeat: what the *fuck* did you do? 18:19:40 (But they certainly pander to Windows users.) 18:19:48 pikhq: 18:19:48 import Tkinter 18:19:49 root = Tkinter.Tk() 18:19:49 w = Tkinter.Text(root) 18:19:49 w.pack() 18:19:49 root.mainloop() 18:19:51 On OS X. 18:20:07 The Tcl/Tk OS X port is written by Apple... 18:20:12 pikhq: Oh, it would be quite nice if it recognised ANY of my bindings. 18:20:18 Not originally, iirc. 18:20:20 They just maintain it. 18:20:27 (My bindings = My OS' keybindings.) 18:20:51 So... Tkinter is bad? 18:20:55 No, Tkinter is fine. 18:21:02 IDLE is fine on non-OS X platforms. 18:21:07 On OS X, it's horrible to use 18:21:16 In conclusion: Fuuuuuuck you Tk 18:21:24 package require Tk;pack [text .w] 18:21:27 Try that. 18:21:55 Better. Not perfect. 18:22:20 That... Is very weird. 18:22:37 Ask in #tcl? 18:22:51 Is it so hard for you to comprehend that Tk sucks on OS X? :P 18:22:56 I mean, it's horribly non-native, even if it was fast. 18:23:15 I can only conclude that it has gone massively downhill since I last used it. 18:23:24 It uses a WHITE BACKGROUND. They fuckin' use the button widgets and couldn't even write one line to change the window background to be OS X's. 18:23:37 Oh, and right clicking seems to be "paste" in the text widget. 18:23:46 Hmm, only if you select something. 18:23:48 It copies it next to it 18:23:49 That is... Quite implausible. 18:23:52 Ooh, no, where you click. 18:23:57 pikhq: but true 18:24:12 Especially when you consider that it just uses Carbon. 18:24:19 (Tcl 8.6 uses Cocoa) 18:24:28 pikhq: they implement their own text widget, obviously 18:24:54 it's easy to get a decent OS X looking thing up, people just don't care, or think that they're doing us a favour by bringing their obviously superior platform conventions to us 18:25:40 Think you could tell me the version of Tk being used? 18:25:47 (return value of package require Tk) 18:26:02 -!- M0ny has joined. 18:26:48 re 18:26:49 [ehird:~] % wish 18:26:49 % package require Tk 18:26:50 8.5.6 18:26:50 % % [ehird:~] % which wish 18:26:55 /opt/local/bin/wish 18:26:58 Woah, that messed up. 18:27:03 ok, so I'm using a macports tcl 18:27:12 my system tcl is 8.4 18:27:30 and is the same, except maybe a little faster 18:28:56 * ehird wonders what he can embed pygame in 18:29:10 -!- comex has joined. 18:29:18 ehird: I strongly suspect Macports is doing something weird. 18:29:29 pikhq! Shut up! I tested it with my system Tcl! 18:29:32 Tk. Sucks. On. OS. X. 18:29:34 Simple as. 18:29:53 ehird: Except that it doesn't. Except for you. 18:30:18 Except, it does. 18:30:26 What's your sample? 18:30:49 AnMaster: iwc :D 18:30:50 FYI, http://pastie.org/590048.txt?key=wmjzqz4idjslw2inbbh9rg and http://pastie.org/590050.txt?key=4ooj6eeey5vtvrlsy03aq are the portfiles. 18:30:59 Protip: They just use the official sources. 18:31:00 Tk sucks. 18:31:41 Download ActiveTcl. If it still sucks, file a bug report and feel free to execute someone, because that's an epic regression. 18:31:54 An epic regression, or I just notice these things more than you 18:32:14 Most people who use OS X without actually switching to it... aren't very picky about it. 18:32:26 fyi, I tried it in like 2006-2007 too 18:32:31 exactly the same 18:33:04 File you a bug. 18:33:19 "Make it not suck" 18:33:31 ActiveTcl wants me to run an installer package, no doubt to pollute my system directories. 18:33:45 Yes, indeed. 18:33:50 It mangles /Library/Frameworks/Tcl.framework 18:34:00 Admittedly, that doesn't exist, but. 18:34:05 A lot of files I'd have to clean up 18:35:46 eh 18:35:49 I'll install it 18:36:34 Thanks, ActiveTcl; just open a documentation page in my browser without asking. 18:36:47 pikhq: gimme the code 18:37:19 ehird: For? 18:37:23 test 18:37:32 package require Tk;pack [text .w] 18:37:59 Exactly the frikkin same 18:38:08 now what files did this garbage install 18:38:32 Then feel free to say Tk on OS X sucks. 18:38:39 Tk on OS X sucks. 18:38:44 now what can I embed pygame into... 18:40:21 -!- Pthing has joined. 18:40:26 scrollwheels suck 18:40:30 there's no way to make them go faster 18:41:34 cpus are so fast 18:42:25 Mice suck. 18:42:56 yeah, trackpoints look quite cool though 18:43:03 and mice can be good 18:43:52 as a diversion, here are the lyrics to a popular song: http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/daft%20punk/around%20the%20world_10076007.html 18:44:00 I'm, of course, referring to the common input paradigm that uses mice a lot, called WIMP. ;) 18:44:05 kinda hard to figure them out 18:44:08 helps to sing along, you know 18:44:33 pikhq: "Of course, I meant something totally different." 18:44:48 ehird: Of course, by all that, I meant that your mother is fat. 18:45:11 Yo momma so fat they put her in Vista and that's why it takes up over ten gigabytes. 18:46:27 AnMaster: iwc :D <-- where is that quote from? 18:46:33 I don't remember either 18:46:57 oerjan, only reason you managed to say that before me was that I was away eating 18:47:39 you should give up eating so you always win 18:48:11 AnMaster: also, Star Wars. 18:48:24 ehird, hm ok 18:48:29 ...as I found when it rung a bell and so took three seconds to google. 18:49:36 AnMaster: it's almost a darths & droids crossover 18:50:29 oerjan, nah, he had a star wars theme in IWC too 18:50:40 was quite a long while ago last time 18:50:50 since the premise of darths & droids is that the roleplayers are in an alternative history where star wars doesn't exist 18:51:37 AnMaster: um this is not a crossover with star wars, this is a crossover with somewhere star wars (movie) doesn't exist 18:51:50 also, shower -> 18:51:52 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 18:51:52 oerjan, oh right 18:51:56 i like how AnMaster "got the joke" without actually getting the joke 18:52:15 clearly oerjan's connection doesn't work in the shower 18:52:24 or why else would he quit the computer? 18:52:28 ... 18:52:42 Because... he's not here? 18:52:45 So... he leaves? 18:52:46 obviously he plans to take computer with him 18:52:54 so he could just do /away and leave computer on 18:53:10 but since he took the computer with him, and wlan doesn't work in shower 18:53:12 clearly 18:53:22 ...he has a water proof computer! 18:53:31 meh :P 18:53:31 or 18:53:32 easy 18:53:36 lets hope he does at least 18:53:43 anyway, I want a lisp machine. 18:53:58 ehird, you said that before. A. Few. Times! 18:54:03 no, but i mean like 18:54:06 not just "oh it'd be lovely to have" 18:54:13 i actually want to take actions to direct myself to owning one 18:54:27 to muffle the noise i will put a bunch of thick clothes on top of it and then put it in a wardrobe :P 18:54:30 ehird, so you plan to get that instead of the laptop? 18:54:36 AnMaster: longer-term than that 18:54:37 ehird, thick clothes? 18:54:39 fun 18:54:41 Yes. 18:54:43 with all the heat 18:54:43 Who cares about heat? 18:54:51 ehird, I suspect it will overheat 18:55:05 eh 18:55:09 they're so loud the fans must be working hard 18:55:32 ehird, if you block the fans with thick clothes the fan effect will be very low 18:55:40 actually I suspect the fans are old 18:55:52 well, i want a new machine of course, not used 18:55:56 maybe replacing with modern fans that can shuffle as much air 18:55:57 although it'll have been made in the 80s 18:56:01 ehird, old as in "old design" 18:56:10 before they found out how to make quieter fans 18:56:15 AnMaster: I'll just not cover the exhaust itself 18:56:22 ehird, or inlet 18:56:23 plus 18:56:28 sure 18:56:31 I assume it radiates some as well 18:56:39 as hot metal case 18:56:41 plastic 18:56:44 acting as a heatsink 18:56:45 ehird, meh 18:57:07 http://lh3.ggpht.com/_q3-C8UUljH4/Rj4HReBP2iI/AAAAAAAAAoQ/9bbBBB1kwXM/image5-1.jpg 18:57:08 two of 'em 18:57:20 ehird, I haven't seen non-metal pc towers in many years no. well, possibly the front is plastic, but the rest is usually metal it seems 18:57:22 more appealing picture: http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/symbolics-images/Symbolics-4.JPG 18:57:39 AnMaster: well the inside sure 18:57:40 -!- jix has joined. 18:57:41 ehird, that small? 18:57:47 small? it's big 18:57:48 -!- ehird has left (?). 18:57:55 -!- ehird has joined. 18:57:56 grr 18:57:59 I need to lay off that key 18:58:08 ehird, I imagined PDP 11 size 18:58:18 they *are* single-user machines 18:58:26 the later models were even smaller: http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/symbolics-images/xl1201x2.jpg 18:58:41 (that's two) 18:58:52 but I will never have $3,500 to spend on one of them 18:58:55 :P 18:58:58 so the 3620 it is 18:59:05 AnMaster: anyway, the 3620's dimensions are 18:59:11 ehird, make surface uneven, slap on an apple logo and you would basically have a ~1995 mac case! 18:59:16 (on the latter picture) 18:59:31 AnMaster: 22.86 x 45.72 x 63.5 cm 18:59:34 maybe a floppy or cd there 18:59:54 ehird, ok, that is about 150% larger I think 18:59:57 AnMaster: and it weighs 31.75kg to 181.43kg depending on configuration 19:00:00 but design would be close 19:00:05 ok, weight is heavy 19:00:08 err grammar 19:00:14 ehird, anyway 19:00:16 The standard 19:00:16 cofiguration is 4 MWords with a 760 MB of ESDI disk and a 17" monochrome 19:00:16 console with keyboard and 3-button mouse. You can add another 760 MB disk 19:00:16 for an additional $150. You can add additional memory for $50 per MWord up 19:00:16 to a total of 8 MWords. You can upgrade to the 19" premium monochrome 19:00:17 monitor for an additional $300. The major problem with all of these 19:00:18 machines is disks. They do not have a SCSI bus and use very old ESDI, SMD 19:00:20 or ST506 disks. The most disk space you can get on one of them is 1.5 GB, 19:00:22 what was so heavy in it 19:00:24 they made the monitors, keyboards and mic 19:00:25 e 19:00:33 (EVERY component of the monitors) 19:00:40 but not the plastic used for the keycaps 19:00:41 heh 19:00:46 they decided that was just going too far 19:01:00 AnMaster: and, I guess the disk for one 19:01:02 the memory 19:01:07 power supply especially 19:01:14 oh? 19:01:19 sure 19:01:20 heavy power supply? 19:01:21 this is an 80s machine 19:01:22 how comes 19:01:29 AnMaster: it uses a royal fuckton 19:01:37 (that's bigger than both a metric fuckton and an imperial fucktonne) 19:01:59 ehird, so... what made the power supplies back then so heavy 19:02:03 was it as heavy for C64 too? 19:02:14 The C64 is like 100x less powerful 19:02:18 well true 19:02:24 and 19:02:28 but really, it's basically a mainframe innabox 19:02:28 disk was heavy? huh 19:02:35 AnMaster: the disk predates SCSI 19:02:42 ehird, hm ok 19:02:43 of course it's heavy 19:02:51 AnMaster: btw, keyboard and mouse: 19:02:59 ehird, SCSI is an interface standard though 19:03:04 ehird: How big is a word 19:03:06 Not at the time, AnMaster 19:03:12 ehird, well yeah 19:03:24 Deewiant: 36 bit 19:03:33 The main processor had a 36 bit word (divided up as 4 or 8 bits of tags, and 32 bits of data or 28 bits of memory address). Memory words were 44 bits, the additional 8 bits being used for error-correcting code (ECC). 19:03:47 ehird, but how the disk is constructed inside doesn't depend on SCSI or not 19:03:50 -!- ineiros has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:03:54 Deewiant: So 3.5 MB 19:03:54 IOW, 44 bit 19:03:58 No 19:04:00 The rest is ECC 19:04:05 IOW? 19:04:08 We don't call ECC 64-bit memory bigger 19:04:12 AnMaster: in other words 19:04:14 AnMaster: ... An ST506, man. 19:04:19 -!- dbc has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:04:19 ah 19:04:22 Deewiant: So 36 bits. 19:04:42 ECC memory has extra bits for the ECC data? I didn't realize that 19:04:43 -!- ineiros_ has joined. 19:04:43 -!- dbc has joined. 19:04:45 That predates "standard hard drive interface". 19:05:08 pikhq, um. wikipedia claims ST506 was 5 MB. Yet ehird quoted the system as "up to 1.5 GB" above 19:05:14 Deewiant: ... That's how they work. 19:05:19 multiple disks of course 19:05:21 but 19:05:21 AnMaster: Yes, that's the maximum addressable. 19:05:29 -!- FIQ has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:05:29 -!- oklopol has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:05:29 -!- Dewi has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:05:30 -!- lament has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:05:30 -!- fizzie has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:05:30 Deewiant: It uses magic pixie dust to correct the errors 19:05:30 1.5 GB / 5 MB 19:05:33 how many disks? 19:05:34 pikhq: shut up, it came with more than 5mb 19:05:38 it came with like a gig 19:05:57 anyway 19:05:57 http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/symbolics-images/keyboard.JPG 19:05:57 http://www.talisman.org/~erlkonig/img/peripheral/kbd/symbolics^mouse.jpg 19:05:59 ECC memory has extra bits for the ECC data? I didn't realize that <-- haha 19:06:01 except mouse was beige, whatever 19:06:03 I presume it used a hard drive with the ST506 interface, rather than the ST506 hard drive, then. 19:06:11 note the fun keys on the keyboard! 19:06:22 pikhq: No. ESDI. 19:06:27 ehird: Ah. 19:06:35 -!- FIQ has joined. 19:06:35 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:06:35 -!- Dewi has joined. 19:06:35 -!- lament has joined. 19:06:35 -!- fizzie has joined. 19:06:39 Must've been an expensive SOB. 19:06:48 pikhq: In the day, probably about $7k 19:06:51 in today's money 19:06:57 So, yes. 19:07:26 -!- nooga has joined. 19:07:27 AnMaster: The 3640 is more of an acceptable size to you: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Symbolics3640.JPG 19:07:29 Yes, in retrospect it's rather obvious 19:07:52 ehird, you mean, much larger? 19:07:57 hey yo 19:07:59 signal processing guys 19:08:04 The keyboard and monitor are resting on top of it. So, yes. 19:08:06 how to asses quailty of a random number series? 19:08:22 BTW, the Lisp Machines had no memory protection or users, iirc. 19:08:23 ehird, I want a small lisp machine. I want a LISP phone! 19:08:29 They were single-user affairs. 19:08:37 modern of course 19:08:38 So don't go around offering shell accounts... 19:09:23 I like how they had CD-ROM drives. 19:09:27 My brain doesn't process them as in the same era. 19:09:40 Not like they could distribute the gigs of software on floppy... 19:09:55 hmm 19:10:01 ehird, pic of the cd drive? 19:10:03 I mean 19:10:14 wonder if someone bothered to create a LISP processor using FPGA 19:10:24 AnMaster: What is there to show? 19:10:28 if a modern cd fits in a huge 5.whatever" hole 19:10:32 how large would it have been then 19:10:36 Umm, regular. 19:10:41 ehird, well cd of course 19:10:43 but drive I mean 19:10:53 Btw, size comparison time. 19:10:56 http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/3%20old%20machines/SMBX_3600_XL_3620-2.JPG 19:10:58 ehird, clearly the drive should be enormous 19:10:59 3600, XL1200, 3620 19:11:06 Look at the fucking SIZE of the 3600! 19:11:31 ehird, they learnt how to use IC around the time of the middle one? ~ 19:12:06 Can't find a piccy of the cd drive. 19:12:20 Grr I hate the MacIvory 19:12:25 It's a Mac, dammit! 19:12:30 I don't care if it runs the OS. 19:13:20 #lisp should buy up Symbolics. :) 19:15:41 are there any true random number generators publicly available besides random.org ? 19:15:50 hotbits 19:16:42 nooga, don't trust them if you are paranoid! 19:17:25 nooga: A CCD camera. 19:17:36 (with the cap on) 19:17:48 pikhq, is that really random? 19:17:54 AnMaster: Yes. 19:18:04 pikhq, isn't it, like, all black? 19:18:06 hm 19:18:15 No, there's quantum noise. 19:18:36 pikhq, oh ok, not a lot of it I assume? 19:18:41 So, as far as we know, it's at least as random as a geiger counter. 19:19:13 AnMaster: At least enough to be usable as a source of entropy. 19:19:21 pikhq, since I remember taking all black pictures before, that were actually completely black except at some *statically* slightly off places 19:19:24 AnMaster: it's fairly impossible for the hotbits owner to do anything fwiw 19:19:27 near impossible at least 19:19:35 ehird, true :P 19:19:45 AnMaster: Specifically, web-cam. 19:20:04 that noise is because of quantum? 19:20:05 fuck that shit 19:20:29 pikhq, oh? I tested with a good camera that was upper-mid-end a few years ago 19:20:47 pikhq, but you say webcams are more random? how comes? 19:20:59 AnMaster: Good cameras tend to try to filter the noise. Webcams don't bother. 19:21:08 pikhq, filter? how? 19:21:17 Anti-quantum particles 19:21:27 Multiple samples, averaging, IIRC. 19:21:28 ehird, my thought exactly XD 19:21:41 Seriously, wow, fuck that shit, it's due to quantum? 19:21:46 Fuuuuuuuuck that shit. 19:21:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:22:09 pikhq, wait, so it samples multiple times both when taking a 1/1000 exposure and when taking a 30 second one? 19:22:11 okay 19:22:12 whatever 19:22:33 pikhq, I can't see how it can get enough light though for it 19:23:18 uhm 19:23:42 i need source of good quailty random numbers for many machines 19:23:52 AnMaster: Hmm. 19:24:04 As an alternate explanation, I'm full of shit. 19:24:05 :P 19:24:15 pikhq, about the quantum noise too? 19:24:42 No, no. Just how good-quality cameras don't show that as much. 19:25:01 ... Good-quality. My English sucks today. 19:25:24 go odqu al it y 19:26:25 uhm 19:26:52 the thing is that i need a noise that resembles natural noise in light transport ;p 19:27:17 nooga, err what 19:27:46 take a light source that emits uniform white light in every direction 19:28:17 it emits photons in random directions and energies 19:28:32 with random energies* 19:28:52 yes... 19:28:58 i need to simulate that 19:29:02 why? 19:29:05 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:29:07 and pseudo-random numbers give stupid patterns 19:29:14 and all that shit looks unnatural 19:29:17 -!- fizzie has joined. 19:29:17 well ok 19:29:31 nooga, sounds like a bad PRNG there 19:29:48 /dev/urandom 19:29:54 nooga, well duh 19:29:57 that's silly to use 19:30:16 if you shoot like, uh, 3000 000 000 photons, every PRNG will give patterns 19:30:17 nooga, try using that to create a seed. then using a good prng 19:30:37 nooga, are you doing ray tracing with like 3000 000 000 photons? 19:31:03 and you can't get that much randomness from any such free source 19:31:09 yes, forward, physically based raytracing 19:31:16 try that "one million random numbers" book 19:31:20 nooga, that will be super-slow 19:31:28 with that number of photons I mean 19:31:30 and 19:31:30 my raytracer traces photons FROM the lights TO the sensor 19:31:32 I suspect 19:31:32 yes 19:31:34 nearly white 19:31:39 it's fucking damn slow 19:31:47 nooga, and it will be nearly white? 19:32:12 what will be nearly whitye? 19:33:13 [19:31] AnMaster: and you can't get that much randomness from any such free source 19:33:13 stop FUDing 19:33:20 therefore i need a "supercomputer", i'd like to be able to distribute the process 19:33:30 ehird, FUD? 19:33:34 oh no, not this "LOL AUTOMATIC DISTRBUTE ACROSS ITNERWEB" from nooga 19:33:56 ehird, I checked, there are limits on the web forms 19:34:07 you can however send a special request it seems 19:34:12 not sure what the size limit is then 19:34:13 ...so use /dev/random 19:34:21 ehird, yeah, that will be fast eh? 19:34:27 well 19:34:28 because 19:34:31 raytracing "3000 000 000 photons" 19:34:33 move your mouse a lot 19:34:35 is going to be fast anyway 19:34:40 obviously 19:34:46 ehird: stop blabbering, rendering is the easiest process to distribute: give each slave a source description and tell them: each one of you must trace n photons, collect results from the slaves 19:34:47 ehird, no, but /dev/random will be slower 19:34:49 add the results 19:34:51 and voila 19:35:02 nooga: over the internet. automatically. 19:35:04 not 19:35:13 not automatically no 19:35:13 you've got scene rendered with n*(slave count) photons 19:35:30 ehird: Well, it could theoretically work over the Internet. ... As a BOINC app. 19:35:33 yes 19:35:34 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:35:46 pikhq, or a botnet or such 19:35:47 pikhq: Manually written. 19:35:47 it would work as a boinc app 19:35:56 OF COURSE MANUALLY WRITTEN!@ 19:35:57 pikhq: And way, way slower than gigabit ethernet. 19:35:58 Of course, that requires splitting it into autonomous processes. 19:36:02 By hundreds of billions of years. 19:36:06 ehird: No shit. 19:36:14 pikhq: Tell that to nooga. 19:36:25 i never thought that computer will magically turn my raytracer program into parallel system 19:36:36 And by the time you've got it split into autonomous processes, parallelism is kinda... Trivial. 19:37:06 "Few lines of shell" kinda trivial. :) 19:37:08 pikhq, iirc ray-tracing is extremely parallel 19:37:11 vvvvvvvvvv18 people 18 people 18 people 19:37:21 raytracing is embarrasginly parallel 19:37:22 no dependencies 19:37:27 ehird, indeed 19:37:28 yes 19:37:34 i understand all that 19:37:37 but forward ray trace is kind of silly iirc 19:37:41 unless I misremember 19:37:43 unfortunately nobody has a shitload of processors :P 19:37:57 ehird, get a shitload of FPGAs 19:37:59 issue solved 19:38:07 AnMaster: one fpga runs you about $100 19:38:09 ehird: Most people have shitloads of processors. It's called a "graphics card". 19:38:12 AnMaster: but it gives results closest to a taking photo 19:38:16 pikhq: sure. 19:38:16 ehird, I never claimed it would be cheap! 19:38:33 AnMaster: yes, but it's probably cheaper to buy a bunch of commodity systems. 19:38:35 second hand 19:38:36 ehird, but even one FPGA can do better than a CPU. 19:38:37 Of course, to use that, you need to write it as a CUDA app. 19:38:45 pikhq: or OpenCL, for ati 19:38:49 well and nvidia too 19:38:54 And Intel. 19:38:55 AnMaster: but the work of one ray-tracing atom is trivial 19:39:01 you could do it at 10mhz, prolly 19:39:20 ehird, there are FPGAs close to 100 MHz iirc? 19:39:27 Yes. 19:39:28 . 19:39:31 I'm saying you don't need speed. 19:39:38 So whether the FPGAs are fast or not is irrelevant. 19:39:40 You just need parallelism. 19:39:47 All you need is a shitload of processors of just about any speed. 19:40:04 ehird: tbh, my program could run parallel even now. i'd need to distribute copies of it with a scene description and ask users to send results of rendering using some small numbers of photons to me and then add the results 19:40:22 and i'd be faster than rendering on one machine 19:40:53 ... Doesn't ray tracing need a decent amount of memory bandwidth? 19:41:18 what i want to do is write a little utility that'd automatically send scene descriptions and collect the results 19:41:29 AND THERE'S NO WORD ABOUT AUTOMATIC PARALLELISM 19:41:31 period. 19:42:34 So, what you want to do is reïmplement BOINC. 19:42:39 yep 19:42:50 That's dumb; BOINC's not hard to write for. 19:42:56 yep 19:43:19 Well, except that it's C. :P 19:43:23 but you have to make ppl join your project 19:43:34 ... No shit? 19:43:38 ...as opposed to computing without their consent 19:43:46 So do you not ACTUALLY have these machines? 19:44:11 i planned to infect one of nearby academic houses 19:44:17 or two 19:44:23 Congrats; you're an immoral asshole. 19:44:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:44:30 why? :D 19:44:34 ........ 19:44:34 it's just an experiment 19:44:42 ... Doesn't ray tracing need a decent amount of memory bandwidth? <-- yep 19:44:42 I want to strangle you. For being stupid, y'see. 19:44:50 -!- coppro has joined. 19:44:51 Anyone care to join me? 19:44:55 nooga: That's called "botnet". 19:44:57 pikhq, local caches and such is very important iirc 19:45:02 pikhq: i know, and? 19:45:07 ..... 19:45:08 And yes, that makes you an immoral asshole. 19:45:31 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:45:32 nooga: I wish a thousand viruses upon your computer. 19:45:37 -!- fizzie has joined. 19:45:39 i'm using mac 19:45:40 ;| 19:45:46 . 19:45:48 kill 19:45:51 I assume you are joking nooga? 19:45:58 nooga: I wish all the viruses upon your computer. 19:45:59 AnMaster: has he ever joked about something so stupid? no 19:46:00 ALL OF THEM. 19:46:09 I like how nooga thinks OS X can't possibly have any bugs. 19:46:18 it has bugs 19:46:26 but there are not many viruses for os x 19:46:37 I hope nooga does infect the computers; then I can get him arrested and we won't have to deal with him any more. 19:46:43 ehird, hm yeah a botnet is rather stupid 19:46:47 "rather" 19:47:03 nooga: i planned to infect one of nearby academic houses << tbh, firstly i'd ask several friends to help me 19:47:10 He actually thinks that making a botnet out of computers near him to do the computation he wants to do is not immoral. 19:47:13 or even some scientists on my university 19:47:20 ehird, as you know by now, I tend to use "rather" before the adjectives like "stupid" and "silly"! 19:47:21 we have cool clusters there 19:47:47 AnMaster: I just murdered someone Hm, that's rather bad 19:47:55 why? :D 19:47:59 ehird, "rather horrible" 19:48:01 you mean 19:48:09 That's putting it too strongly 19:48:12 He might get offended 19:48:20 oh come on 19:48:25 ehird, you think so? Maybe "not very nice" would be better? 19:48:42 AnMaster: "Well, if you think you did the right thing..." might work 19:49:04 ehird, if it was in self defence? 19:49:13 ghhh 19:49:24 AnMaster: Yes; I was probably trying to kill him for being an idiot. 19:49:40 probably my botnet would fail because i don't know how to write malicious software 19:49:46 especially for windows 19:49:49 so no fear 19:49:49 good thing 19:50:00 it's only athought 19:50:03 And the only thing stopping me from murdering is that I'm weak. 19:50:09 Yay fun moral system! 19:50:11 nooga, "athought"? 19:50:13 if i were christian i could go to church and confess 19:50:17 as opposed to "bthought"? 19:50:40 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:50:49 (a thought) 19:50:56 your parser is broken sir 19:51:03 err, isn't that only for Catholics or such? 19:51:09 I mean, confessing in curch 19:51:12 church* 19:51:19 isn't poland like 99% catholic 19:51:25 ehird, oh good point 19:51:36 and i'm in that 1% 19:51:45 oh? 19:51:52 so there are 99 other people in Poland then? 19:51:58 "in" 19:52:05 ehird, argh I misread it 19:52:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_of_Poland 19:52:08 BAPTISM OF POLAND 19:52:12 They actually poured water over ALL OF POLAND 19:52:12 yuck 19:52:15 Fuck yeah! 19:52:29 's called rain 19:52:30 ... 19:52:35 no, it's a SKY FLOOD 19:52:44 ehird, heavy rain? 19:52:48 btw 19:52:49 SKY FLOOD 19:52:54 what's with _why ? 19:53:07 I dunno; I'll look into my crystal ball! 19:53:13 Oh wait, it's a magic 8 wait I've said this before. 19:53:22 the part before ';' would do 19:53:31 didn't you ask yesterday nooga ? 19:53:33 AnMaster: yes. 19:53:54 Zed Shaw posted to his blog calling _why Jonathan, which I made two posts rebutting. bah. 19:53:56 AnMaster: maybe something changed 19:54:40 nooga, use google yourself? 19:54:49 AnMaster: rich from you 19:54:55 ehird, thanks 19:54:58 -!- sebbu has joined. 19:55:22 ehird, googled idiom but can't find definition 19:55:29 so explain it 19:55:43 "You're a hypocrite", basically. 19:55:48 ok 19:56:12 ehird, and so is your mom 19:56:19 "Oh, snap." 19:58:09 try to google "why" 19:58:21 nooga just stfu 19:58:29 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:58:58 nooga, try _why 19:58:59 ... 19:59:08 "why the lucky stiff". 20:00:35 ehird, or that 20:06:13 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:07:33 did you know that whitehouse.gov used to use lisp machines? 20:07:36 not for the main site, but. 20:08:18 i'll get a link 20:09:40 http://web.archive.org/web/20000301193429/www.pub.whitehouse.gov/WH/Publications/html/Publications.html 20:09:46 pub.whitehouse.gov ran on one 20:10:33 heh 20:10:41 why heh, it's awesome :( 20:10:41 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 20:10:50 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:10:51 ehird, source for this? 20:10:52 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes. 20:11:06 do you srsly question everything? i read it, i'm sure of it, end of 20:11:14 i have no reason to lie 20:11:17 google it if you care 20:11:26 reliable source and all that ;P 20:11:40 ghh 20:11:43 you assume that i give a shit if you believe me or not 20:11:53 "(The LispM that served www.pub.whitehouse.gov sadly disappeared in january 2001 when Prez Bush replaced Prez Clinton)" 20:11:54 ok 20:11:56 found one source 20:12:10 hmm, apparently a high-end macivory lisp machine cost about $50,000 in 1991 20:12:10 and a few more 20:12:18 O_O 20:12:37 maybe it's time to reinvent lisp machines 20:12:46 of course it is. 20:12:53 that's what i'm doing 20:13:02 ehird: So, I guess *that's* why Symbolics went out of business? Exceptionally expensive workstations? ;) 20:13:13 nope, symbolics did fine 20:13:17 but nobody wanted a lisp machine 20:13:33 ... At a time that people figured "Eh, x86 is good enough." 20:13:36 besides, they still exist and sell things, albeit slowly :P 20:13:43 pikhq: I'll tell you what happened 20:13:44 Windows happend 20:13:47 *happened 20:13:51 The explosion of unix happened 20:13:52 are there moderl lisp processors? 20:13:56 Dammit, Microsoft. 20:13:57 modern* 20:13:59 nooga: no. not apart from fpgas 20:14:03 ah 20:14:30 * pikhq would like a Haskell machine 20:14:32 creating an industrial matrix for a processor is a bit expensive 20:15:00 ASICs aren't woefully expensive 20:15:03 if you have a market 20:15:08 symbolics had their own fab, though 20:15:13 god damn they had money 20:15:57 The fact that they actually *sold* any machines that cost $50,000 implies that they had money. ;) 20:16:12 i just can't comprehend that they made their monitors themselves 20:16:23 i think they basically relied on no other companies 20:16:27 for anything important at least 20:16:33 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/Symbolics-document-examiner.png / genera had very nice fonts 20:16:38 ehird, that seems silly 20:16:44 the font in the Document Examiner window is really readable 20:16:45 man 20:16:46 even when not anti-aliased 20:16:51 I mean, they could have managed way better if they had relied on other companies 20:16:53 AnMaster: but the displays were high-quality 20:16:54 1024 x 867 in 80's 20:16:57 AnMaster: and no, they couldn't have 20:17:00 that was something 20:17:11 ehird, ok, maybe I'm just wishful 20:17:21 i mean, hardware was pretty crap in those days 20:17:29 but if you bought a symbolics machine, you're done 20:17:29 ehird: That is a *much* better UI than you'd expect for the era. 20:17:36 pikhq: it's pretty much system-wide emacs 20:17:37 ehird, the font is readable because it avoids lines in directions that look bad 20:17:45 it's a very well-designed font 20:17:48 ehird, there are some issues in the bold italics bit 20:17:55 that's not the same font 20:17:58 i don't think 20:18:00 ehird, ah maybe 20:18:00 hmm, maybe 20:18:09 AnMaster: remember that CRTs blur a bit, though 20:18:14 ehird, true 20:18:20 (I wonder if you could hook up an LCD to a symbolics machine?) 20:18:40 pikhq: but yes, the windowing system was great from what I hear 20:18:43 ehird, I never got opengenera thingy working :/ 20:18:47 as in 20:18:47 well 20:18:54 pikhq: I've read the boot up source of the OS 20:18:56 I got it up to the enter site settings thing 20:18:56 it's written in lisp 20:18:58 not pretty :) 20:19:09 ehird, but never got the site setting things to save properly 20:19:38 ehird: where is that source? 20:19:52 http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3769989/Symbolics_Open_Genera_2.0_for_Alpha_-_complete_package_with_Lisp 20:19:57 fun comment: 20:19:58 dkschmidt at 2007-08-15 02:24 CET: 20:19:58 Congratulations on downloading the finest software development environment ever created. If you want to find out more about Genera or would like to have a Symbolics Lisp Machine, check out the Symbolics website at www.symbolics.com or contact sales@symbolics.com. 20:20:02 dkschmidt is the remaining symbolics guy 20:20:04 a true salesma 20:20:05 n 20:20:17 oh 20:20:26 Symbolics were like Macs done right, I think 20:20:35 You bought them and got everything you needed, extremely high quality 20:20:38 and yet they were totally open 20:20:43 you could modify the whole system 20:21:02 pretty cool 20:21:06 Because that's just Lisp for you. 20:21:07 i like the idea 20:21:35 I hope asciilifeform open sources his FPGA flash disk card 20:21:37 how much does a lisp machine cost nowadays? 20:21:43 nooga: http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt 20:21:46 nooga: about $700 20:21:49 up to $3,500 20:21:59 nooga: don't get a macivory; they're macs with a lisp expansion board 20:22:04 not nearly cool enough 20:22:14 asciilifeform/loper os guy is getting a 3620 20:22:15 which macs? 20:22:25 nooga: MacIvory, they're Symbolics machines; 20:22:31 basically mac + Lisp processor expansion board 20:22:33 but that's uber-lam 20:22:34 e 20:22:39 uhuh, i can imagine 20:22:47 some info from the guy 20:22:48 [[The machine is equipped with dual 380MB disks (each with full OS install) and 4 MWord of RAM. The manual rates the power supply for 1KW max draw / 400W typical. The latter is much the same as my desktop PC. Noise is not a concern: I do not intend to run it 24/7. I expect the power consumption to fall by ~100W after the flash disk is in.]] 20:24:38 wow 20:24:46 they had 64-bit word in 80's 20:24:55 1KW max draw / 400W typical 20:24:56 err 20:24:57 right 20:25:05 ehird, ok about heavy power suplies! 20:25:14 That's not a lot 20:25:20 ehird, 1 KW is 20:25:27 1KW is what really high end gaming PCs use, AnMaster 20:25:30 As in, typically 20:25:32 ehird: because your parents pay the bills 20:25:33 :D 20:25:34 Lisp Machines use that at peak 20:25:38 ehird, what really? 20:25:40 nooga: Relatively 20:25:49 AnMaster: Yes; not all that many machines actually use 1KW, but there are some. 20:25:57 Think triple graphics card + overclocked CPU 20:26:05 (quad-core, naturally) 20:26:11 ehird, I thought it was like 600W peak on high end power supplies? 20:26:29 Most consumer power supplies are like 400W 20:26:32 Most brand-name are like 700W 20:26:52 You can purchase 1KW, but they cost a bit. 20:27:15 And it's not unheard of to have a 2 power supply system. Just... rather rare. 20:27:35 1kw is like $300 20:27:38 http://www.symbolics.com/ << what can I say, they have a pretty logo 20:27:42 it's not at all uncommon 20:27:50 -!- jix has joined. 20:28:02 for a company that sells it's products for 50k 20:28:10 sold 20:28:12 when they were new 20:28:20 http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt are modern prices 20:28:22 that's what i mean 20:28:27 saw it 20:28:35 what about laptop power supplies? 20:28:44 aren't they like 70 W or so? iirc? 20:28:47 AnMaster: they're external 20:28:49 but yes 20:28:51 laptops use very little power 20:28:52 ehird, yes they are 20:29:01 mac mini it 110W at peak AFAIR :D 20:29:08 mac mini idles at 13watt 20:29:09 is* 20:29:11 ehird, what about that 17"+10" one? ;P 20:29:17 that's true ehird 20:29:18 AnMaster: like 34958734953489789794835793457watt 20:29:22 ehird, right 20:29:22 http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3468 20:29:24 13 - 110 watt 20:29:26 mac mini 20:29:46 ehird, my laptop idles at 8.6 W iirc 20:29:53 when disk is spun down 20:29:57 really? 20:30:01 around 9.1 W when disk is spinning 20:30:10 ehird, tested with powertop, not sure how accurate that is 20:30:26 ehird, since it asks ACPI for the info 20:30:27 iirc 20:31:09 ehird, you think it is high or low? 20:31:17 low 20:31:27 ehird, was 20% brightness on display though 20:31:32 which could affect it 20:31:38 and wlan was turned off. 20:31:48 ehird, I was basically just testing how low I could get it 20:32:07 when in usable mode with wlan off, around 9.8W with disk spinning 20:32:32 wlan causes a lot of wakeups when searching for networks if it isn't connected to any 20:34:09 http://fun.noshit.pl/DIR-2009.08.20/fnp7.jpg << first exercise ;D 20:35:33 nooga, you think we can read that? 20:35:55 it's phonetic Polish for americans i suppose 20:35:57 Asztal: Hey, why no asztal.net 20:37:15 "Przepraszam, czy można przymierzyć?" is the first line lol 20:37:25 deciphering that took me 2 minutes 20:38:20 -!- Gracenotes has quit (SendQ exceeded). 20:39:09 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112003322&ft=1&f=1001 / wtf, I thought we stopped using physical objects to define units 20:40:19 Not the kilogram. 20:40:55 We did; turns out that the kilogram is tricky 20:41:03 We're working on it 20:41:18 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 20:41:28 Deewiant: We? :P 20:41:33 Oh, I said we. 20:41:37 Nevermind. 20:41:41 :-P 20:42:01 Also, nevermind is totally a word. Just ask Nirvana. 20:43:32 wonder if wolframalpha knows 20:43:36 ;> 20:43:48 Why can't it be defined in terms of Planck units? 20:44:02 (aside from that being potentially absurdly hard to measure) 20:44:08 `wolfram 1 kilogram in planck units 20:44:15 $Failed \ \ 20:44:20 `wolfram 1 kilogram in planck mass 20:44:21 One bacon in planck times per meters minus squared 20:44:28 1 kilogram in planck mass \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 kg kilogram to Planck masses \ Result: \ \ 4.595 107 mP Planck masses \ Additional conversion: \ \ 1000 grams \ Interpretation: \ \ mass \ Corresponding quantities: \ \ Weight w of a body from w 2.2 lbf pounds force 0.069 slugf slugs force 9.8 N newtons 20:44:34 See, that was easy. 20:45:04 but planck mass is defined using grams 20:45:10 `wolfram 1 yottaparsec in planck length 20:45:13 nooga: ... No. 20:45:16 1 yottaparsec in planck length \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 Y yotta \ Result: \ \ pc parsec to Planck lengths \ \ 1.909 1075 lP Planck lengths \ Additional conversions: 37 \ \ 1.917 10 miles \ \ Interpretation: \ \ length \ Corresponding quantity: \ \ Light travel time t in vacuum from t 3.264 1024 years 20:45:24 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=planck+mass CTO 20:45:33 where's definition using constants? 20:45:48 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_mass here 20:45:49 from a guy who uses a 3620: "Most people will WANT to put the machine in a separate room. It is LOUD" 20:46:01 nooga : Planck mass is when the Schwartzchild radius and the compton wavelength are the same 20:46:03 How loud is this thing xD 20:46:07 50dBA? 20:46:08 ha 20:46:09 okay 20:46:12 It is defined in terms of units defined such that G, h, c, 1/(4\pi\epsilon_0), and k_b are 1. 20:46:27 that's more sane 20:46:29 If I were more awake, I'd say something that ehird would take notice of. 20:46:36 Hi Sgeo_. 20:46:38 hi 20:46:56 * Sgeo_ has, next to him, his copy of The Age of Spiritual Machines 20:47:06 So, m_p = \sqrt{hc/G} 20:47:17 Ah, Kurzweil's I-don't-wanna-die masterpiece. 20:47:25 It's something like 8 micrograms IIRC 20:47:35 `wolfram planck mass in gram 20:47:39 It has predictions for 2009 20:47:40 Surely you want an updated version, where he amends the dates to be actually in the future, but still within his expected lifetime? 20:47:42 planck mass in gram \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ convert 1 mP Planck mass to grams \ Result: \ \ 2.176 10 \ \ 5 \ \ grams \ \ Additional conversions: \ \ 21.76 µg micrograms \ Comparisons as mass: \ \ 0.01 \ Interpretation: \ \ 1 69 \ \ mass of a typical mosquito \ \ 1 10 \ \ 6 \ \ kg \ \ mass \ Corresponding 20:47:43 Slereah: ~2*10^-8 kg. 20:47:58 The last edition will predict that the singularity will happen tomorrow; the day after, he'll be dead. 20:48:04 heh 20:48:21 Silly old people! 20:48:34 As far as I'm conserned, there's nothing wrong with hoping he turns out to be right. 20:48:56 There's nothing wrong with hoping that there's a God who loves us all and takes us to heaven and gives us eternal joy forever. 20:48:56 Sgeo_: Yeah, but you admit it's a hope. 20:49:00 Not prophecy. 20:49:04 It's still irrational. 20:49:17 A better way to have hope is to actually work on making the world a better place. 20:49:20 ehird, I hope that too, even though I don't believe that there is. 20:49:30 I hope that I will have a pony in three seconds. 20:49:39 * pikhq spawns a pony 20:50:09 I wonder if symbolics hired a typographer to design their fonst 20:50:10 ehird: get back to reinventing lisp machines 20:50:12 fonts 20:50:13 Probably not 20:50:23 nooga: :P 20:50:28 He did get some predictions right, or rightish >.>. But still, a lot were wrong 20:50:30 even you could design bitmap font 20:50:39 Want me to post some of them? 20:50:40 nooga: Fuck you, typography is awesome 20:50:43 sure 20:50:45 it is 20:50:57 Sgeo_: uri geller has been right about some football games too 20:51:28 Something else that would be nice: just arbitrarily define the Avogadro constant. Voila, kilogram in terms of the mass of ^{12}C. 20:52:00 "People typically have at least a dozen computers on and around their bodies, which are networked using "body LANs (local area networks)." 20:52:10 On their bodies. 20:52:13 At least a dozen? 20:52:17 This is some new definition of "true". 20:52:23 Body LANs? 20:52:31 ehird, I wasn't posting an example of what he got right. 20:52:34 That's not going to be common for another 5 to 10 years. 20:52:40 pikhq: Why a dozen? 20:52:41 Why not one? 20:52:43 We don't need a dozen. 20:52:53 We don't need "body LANs"; we have the internet. 20:53:10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6Q0dfrbr10 nice one 20:53:23 ehird: Fair point. 20:53:34 Though a "body LAN" could carry TCP/IP, et viola. 20:53:38 In fact, what he's talking about is 80s thinking. 20:53:41 He got this at least half-right: "Computers routinely include moving picture image cameras and are able to reliably identify their owners from their faces." 20:53:47 You can't imagine a global network of everyone; that can't possibly work. 20:53:51 Sgeo_: they cannot really do the latter 20:53:54 not reliably 20:54:01 pikhq: You can't imagine one all-powerful computer. 20:54:01 That's why I said half-right 20:54:05 Of course we need specialised ones. 20:54:14 ehird: Hahah. 20:55:11 I'm going to be random about what I'm posting. They're generally going to either be somewhat right or so dead wrong it's hilarious. 20:55:16 Facial recognition is inherently heuristic (and therefore at least somewhat unreliable)... 20:56:00 "The majority of text is created using continuous speech recognition (CSR) dictation software, but keyboards are still used." 20:56:07 Hah. 20:56:13 I'm better at typing than speaking. 20:56:17 More accurate, no trips, ... 20:56:31 The extra speed of speech comes at a great cost. 20:56:41 See, that sort of thinking is typical "future!". 20:56:45 It's different, and we can't do it now. 20:56:50 Therefore, it must be something that we will do in the future. 20:56:57 Never is "maybe it's actually not better" considered. 20:57:00 * Sgeo_ doesn't want to try to imagine programming via CSR 20:57:49 My dad swears by it, though. >.> 20:57:56 Is your dad a programmer? 20:57:59 No 20:58:03 Is he sane? 20:58:30 The way he treats me sometimes, I'd think not. 20:58:53 woo, dysfunctional families \o/ 20:59:05 It's not like he's physically abusive, at least 20:59:24 Well that's all right then 20:59:28 Or trying to stop me from going to college.. wait, actually, he kind of did in 2007 20:59:29 :P 20:59:41 "Durn kids and their, uhh education" 20:59:51 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:59:57 He wanted me to go to college, just.. later, I think 21:00:05 After I went to Israel for a while 21:00:14 Why Israel? 21:00:17 Is he jewish? 21:00:24 Yes. 21:00:44 lawl 21:00:46 This family is Jewish. I don't consider myself Jewish religion-wise 21:01:07 I rather think that with Israel's actions, it would do the opposite of making me Jewish 21:02:05 Apparently, there's some program in Israel that my dad and step-mom thought would help "make me normal" or something. 21:02:19 yuck 21:02:24 yuck yuck yuck 21:02:49 Sgeo_: "normal"? 21:03:00 sionists 21:03:01 Not an evil atheist or something? :P 21:03:06 nooga: It's spelt with a z. 21:03:09 But yes, zionism is stupid. 21:03:09 ah 21:03:17 it is 21:03:22 ehird, not that. They seem convinced that I couldn't live on my own, and had no responsibility. 21:03:36 my mother thinks that :P 21:03:42 (but she's probably right) 21:04:49 "$10 in Pennies is worth $18.05 if you melt them down for the copper." 21:04:56 ...do you think you could repeat this process? 21:05:09 "That's not actually quite correct. $10 worth of 1909-1982 Lincoln copper pennies is worth $18.05 while $10 worth of 1982-2009 Lincoln zinc pennies is worth only $4.71. Thanks for the link though. +1" 21:05:10 dammit 21:05:10 Sgeo_: Y'know the way to fix that? Move out. 21:05:26 i want to move out, it sounds like hella fun 21:05:43 ehird: It is. It is also a PITA. 21:05:50 pikhq, my dad has an apartment, but isn't letting me move there yet. He doesn't want the apartment ruined if I fail to clean. 21:06:09 I mentioned moving out on my own, and he said he'd cut off all support. 21:06:25 yuck 21:06:30 i live on my own 21:06:33 relly simple 21:06:35 Sgeo_: sounds like your family sucks 21:06:36 really 21:06:53 get a well paid job in IT or something 21:07:01 find a small apartament 21:07:05 working in IT is hell 21:07:09 from what i gather. 21:07:13 on symbolics lisp machine: "The old systems have a special console. No VGA" 21:07:17 buy food, pay rent and bills, party party party 21:07:17 shame 21:07:29 would be nice to hook up an lcd. 21:07:31 ehird: working is hell 21:07:39 nooga: but sometimes moreso than others 21:07:47 ehird: I work in IT. 21:07:54 like, uh, porting MFC parts to OS X because someone orders you to do it 21:07:55 etc 21:08:20 pikhq: yeah but your job is awesome (sample size: 1) 21:08:22 ehird, make an adapter? 21:08:26 AnMaster: how 21:08:28 ehird: Indeed, it is. 21:08:34 AnMaster: analog and shit 21:08:40 I think I'm misunderstanding what MFC is. Isn't it the API provided by Windows for GUIs and stuff? 21:08:44 How do you port that? 21:08:46 Sgeo_: It is. 21:08:48 Sgeo_: For general stuff 21:08:48 ehird, well and? There are VGA<->DVI adapters 21:08:49 Not just guis 21:08:50 not only guis 21:08:52 so clearly not impossible 21:08:53 You reimplement it. 21:08:58 file support, strings, dates and such 21:09:02 AnMaster: brb, sytnthesizing a pony 21:09:03 ehird, just may require some knowledge of what you are doing 21:09:08 *synthesizing 21:09:28 AnMaster: DVI cables can carry VGA signals directly on the wire. 21:09:28 i have all *.h files from MFC and i'm implementing the classes so that they comply their interfaces 21:09:34 pikhq, correct. 21:09:35 Isn't there a thing to get WINE working in OS X? 21:09:35 it seems Genera had no web browser 21:09:37 unsurprising 21:09:41 Sgeo_: wine supports os x 21:09:49 but he means iphone 21:09:52 ye 21:09:57 also objective c stuff too 21:09:57 pikhq, but I have seen converts to DVI-I or whatever it was called 21:10:00 OS X is the first stage 21:10:08 Sgeo_: Until the x86 port of OS X, it was kinda useless without qemu, but yes. 21:10:09 and then hopefully it would run on gayphone 21:10:10 pikhq, ehird, so you basically figure out the electrical "protocol" of the analogue signal. 21:10:29 AnMaster: Nontrivial, but doable. 21:10:41 ehird: get yourself an oscilloscope 21:10:44 Must be fun, knowing that you're duplicating WINE's efforts, just so you can have what's basically WINE on iPhone 21:10:50 AnMaster: dude, shut up. 21:10:51 pikhq, indeed, then you build a digital circuit to convert it to a digital signal 21:10:56 Sgeo_: no 21:10:59 mfc != win32api 21:11:00 stfu 21:11:04 pikhq, there are A/D converters after all 21:11:13 Sgeo_: ah, i'm reimplementing a minimal subset used by a specific library 21:11:13 Well, a subset of WINE on iPhone, then? 21:11:18 then you process that to render a picture, and re-emit it using display-port 21:11:19 nooga, ah. 21:11:21 Sgeo_: MFC is a thick, thick wrapper on top of Win32. 21:11:22 problem solved 21:11:24 it's still simpler than reimplementing the library 21:11:25 ehird, pikhq ^ 21:11:26 ;P 21:11:29 AnMaster: jesus christ shut up 21:11:29 non-trivial indeed 21:11:52 Though by that notion, Qt is a thick, thick wrapper on top of X11. So... :P 21:11:53 http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20Machine%20Videos 21:11:55 * ehird orgasm 21:12:04 ^__________^ lisp machine videooooooos 21:12:13 oh lame not actually vids 21:12:15 just screencasts 21:12:21 still 21:12:32 such a pretty interface 21:12:34 wow 21:12:35 1-bit at its finest 21:12:40 screen capture on lispm? 21:12:54 I've never actually seen a Lisp machine before 21:12:55 So 21:12:57 http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/genera.jpg <-- physical NMI? :D 21:13:18 Zmacs? 21:15:25 Sgeo_: ZLisp Emacs. 21:15:31 guy sounds german 21:16:13 AnMaster: :) 21:16:46 nmi? 21:17:27 ehird, ...... 21:17:29 pretty cool 21:17:39 ehird: Non-maskable interrupt. 21:17:52 ehird, you shouldn't be allowed to get a LISP machine. AND you are a hypocrite... who can't google 21:18:03 http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=nmi&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 21:18:07 national microelectronics institute 21:18:10 national measurement institute 21:18:12 http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-gb&q=nmi+computer&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 21:18:13 NMi netherlands 21:18:16 ehird, tried that? 21:18:17 nautical mile 21:18:20 non-maskable interrupt 21:18:30 ehird, try adding the word "computer" 21:18:31 as I said 21:18:38 but sure, I shouldn't be allowed tog et a lisp machine because i didn't know one term 21:18:39 which gets non-maskable interrupt at top 21:18:39 fuck off 21:19:00 ehird, everyone geek should know NMI 21:19:16 ehird, everyone who wrote a kernel would know it 21:19:23 so i'm not a geek by your definition, that's okay, i don't give a shit about what you think 21:19:29 i'm such an ungeek who doesn't know one acronym! 21:19:55 ehird: Turn in your geek license. 21:20:06 jesus fucking christ 21:20:06 -!- ehird has left (?). 21:20:13 "Computer displays built into eyeglasses are also used. These specialized glasses allow users to see the normal visual environment, while creating a virtual image that appears to hover in front of the viewer. The virtual images are created directly onto the user's retinas." 21:20:20 ... Ehird has no sense of humor. 21:20:50 pikhq, indeed 21:20:59 cool 21:21:16 that Lisp Machines are so fucking über cool 21:22:59 "Translating Telephone technology (where you speak in English and your Japenese friend hears you in Japanese, and vice versa) is commonly used for many language pairs. It is a routine capability of an individual's personal computer, which also serves as her phone." 21:24:18 then who was phone 21:24:19 ? 21:25:11 nooga, http://www.creepypasta.com/yeah-so-quit-asking/ 21:25:20 AnMaster: ehird, everyone who wrote a kernel would know it << ehird's plan is not to write kernel 21:25:37 he wants a kernel without kernel 21:25:37 nooga, oh right 21:25:46 but everyone that wrote an OS would know about interrupts 21:25:50 including NMIs 21:28:20 -!- coppro has joined. 21:28:43 -!- ehird has joined. 21:29:19 o.O didn't realize ehird wasn't here 21:31:15 "The total cost was around $750, including the PayPal surcharge. Note that the purchase also included a "New Type" keyboard." 21:32:14 http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/Lasse-Rasinen/IMG_0716.JPG 21:33:45 http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/Hannu-Koivistos-machines/symbolics-2-001.jpg < capacitors? 21:34:06 psu? 21:34:14 it looks so different from a modern computer 21:35:37 * Sgeo_ re-watches Space Mutiny 21:36:16 gui looks pretty clever on those films 21:37:27 nooga, having to go through menu to move or resize window seems like a pain 21:37:34 ehird: "Turn in your geek license" is a joke, BTW. 21:37:43 AnMaster: uh, no 21:37:49 click, swipe, click 21:37:51 quick as can be 21:38:00 AnMaster: oh, with minor changes it would be very usable 21:38:03 for lisp stuff 21:38:04 i think 21:38:10 minor changes? why? 21:38:11 it is usable 21:38:18 pikhq: kay 21:38:21 like adding title bars to windows 21:38:29 ehird, err how did you open menu then 21:38:31 or at least X buttons 21:38:40 AnMaster: right click 21:38:42 nooga... It's an Emacs-like interface. 21:38:46 ehird, so that is two clicks 21:38:46 yea 21:38:47 nooga: ugh 21:38:49 I hate title bars 21:38:51 i liked vim better 21:38:52 ehird, or three rather 21:38:54 AnMaster: "click, swipe, click" 21:38:57 That's "tiling". 21:39:00 menu, swipe, choose 21:39:02 pikhq: it isn't tiling 21:39:03 it can tile 21:39:06 but it can float too 21:39:22 ehird: Oh, okay. 21:39:25 ehird, 1) click to open menu, click to select resize, move mouse to where you want it to be resized, click to select that point 21:39:34 s/1)// 21:39:37 plan 9 uses the same interface 21:39:40 it is perfectly usable 21:39:45 ehird, I dislike it 21:39:52 it's better since you can move and resize in one click 21:39:59 instead of two 21:40:00 ehird, uh how? 21:40:00 one action 21:40:14 AnMaster: choose resize, click at starting point, drag at end point 21:40:16 voila 21:40:17 ehird, and very often I only want to move *or* resize 21:40:20 not both 21:40:32 so use tiling or patch the OS or STFU 21:41:21 -!- FIQ has quit ("- nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -"). 21:41:50 You know what strikes me as "It sounds cool, so it will be the future"? The idea of a 3d web. 21:41:56 yep 21:42:02 a very horrible idea 21:42:36 Things like SL are fun, but to force 3d to browse for information, and shopping? I see maybe utility for showing what a product might look like, but walking down a hall to shop? 21:42:48 There's a reason that SL has a very 2d Xstreet SL 21:43:00 navigation is crap 21:43:05 we have to in the physical world 21:43:08 but hypertext is such a better model 21:43:15 space shouldn't exist 21:43:18 it's arbitrary 21:43:29 things are harder to get to because they just are, not for any reason 21:45:03 Come to think of it, it would be on the same level as fighting monsters that guard the information you want. It's extending entertainment in such a way that it blocks productive use. 21:45:06 I can think of some reasons why 3D is a bad idea 21:45:17 you and everyone else 21:45:30 just think of a 3D game, and a 2D game. Which is easiest to keep track of where you are in 21:45:47 2d is just as bad. 21:45:50 more than once in a third person shooter style game I managed to loose what direction I was looking in 21:45:50 theoretically 21:46:03 ehird, consider a side scroller, you tend to be able to keep better track of things 21:46:10 oh also 21:46:11 WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT GAMES 21:46:19 in 3D things are hidden behind other stuff 21:46:25 sure can be in 2D too 21:46:28 WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT GAMES 21:46:32 but isn't intrinistically so 21:46:34 ehird, nor am I 21:46:42 yes...you are... 21:46:43 I was just using it as an analogy 21:46:55 A 3d web is like taking a game and forcing people who want information to play it. 21:46:56 the whole point is that games are a bad analogy 21:46:58 ehird, no, about "hidden behind" I'm talking about navigation 21:47:00 ... 21:47:04 not talking about games at all 21:47:16 sigh 21:48:23 ehird, in a 2D web page, all things are at one layer by default. Sure you can add image over text. Tends to be a sign of bad CSS in most cases. And image below text, which can be more ok (background image). But still fairly limited to a few layers 21:48:31 while this is not true for a 3D web 21:48:33 jkldfjlkdsfjkdslfjkldsf you are missing the point _entirely_ 21:48:45 where things are intrinsically behind each other 21:48:47 hypertext, while rendered to be 2d, is fundamentally different from a 2d game 21:48:53 Sgeo_: please try and explain to him 21:49:01 ehird, and I'm no longer talking about games 21:49:03 so why are you 21:49:20 you're either being purposefully dense or are dense 21:49:25 the last line I talked about game was " ehird, consider a side scroller, you tend to be able to keep better track of things" 21:49:31 after that I left the game analogy 21:49:32 ... 21:49:36 so you are being dense now 21:49:37 not me 21:49:46 the whole point is your model 21:50:00 I think we were considering more of the problem of navigation than rendering 21:50:17 Sgeo_, I'm considering navigating in a 3D web page. 21:50:26 and 21:50:31 Sgeo_: he doesn't understand that how you navigate isn't just about the dimensions 21:50:39 navigation is made hard, if you can't see where things are 21:50:41 whereas we were talking about 0-distance hypertext vs 2d/3d navigable space 21:50:48 also he's on some sort of tirade about hiding 21:51:20 hypertext isn't zero distance unless your mouse happens to be in the right place 21:51:21 ... 21:51:31 Actually, I think the Worlds.com model would sort of, kind of, suckily, work 21:51:33 or you tab to it 21:51:57 AnMaster: ...... 21:52:01 Worlds can define a sort of 2d panel of links. Check out the lower-right 21:52:02 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WorldsPlayer.PNG 21:52:09 nigt 21:52:11 AnMaster: THAT IS NOT WHAT DISTANCE IN SPACE MEANS 21:52:11 night* 21:52:26 oh my god, AnMaster is so idiotic i can't even believe 21:52:42 Sgeo_: "the Wikipedia" 21:52:42 Of course, disseminating information in a 3d web is kind of insane, and a 3d web is still pointless except for the coolness factor 21:53:03 ehird, I hope that was a typo on my part 21:54:42 ehird, you have an issue, mixing up "idiotic" and "lacking knowledge of the terms used" 21:54:46 they are quite different 21:54:55 no, if you read what Sgeo_ said, it was very obvious 21:55:14 maybe you're even intelligent inside your head, but your communication model is certainly one of the stupidest things i've ever interacted with 21:56:27 ehird, I have no problems talking to most other people, either in here or elsewhere 21:56:36 ehird, so I guess our models are just non-compatible 21:56:50 uhh 21:56:55 you had a problem talking to Sgeo_ 21:57:01 since you completely misunderstood what he meant 21:57:08 whereas i only have a problem with you 21:57:08 ehird, only when said person is interacting with you 21:57:18 Sgeo_: hear that? talking with me makes you stupid. 21:57:24 it's quantum transferodynamic. 21:57:27 so I guess you force a certain mode. 21:57:31 btw 21:57:34 about PSU 21:57:46 my laptop has a 65W external PSU 21:58:15 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:58:28 I force a certain mode! 21:58:37 Better stop talking to me, people; you'll become idiotic. 21:59:03 hmm apparently $100,000 was the most expensive symbolics system 22:02:04 [[Like everyone outside the US, I was grossly overcharged by Symbolics UK (some $40,000 per annum in maintenance charges alone). 22:02:04 Read more: http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/how_to_get.html#ixzz0Ol8aLpJ]] 22:02:07 ugh 22:02:10 that stupid read more script 22:02:20 gtfo my browser 22:02:42 Hm? 22:02:48 when i copied it that link appeared. 22:02:56 and also sent off the snippet i copied to a server 22:02:57 for analysis 22:03:06 ...wtf? 22:03:13 it's a new company 22:03:14 fuck them 22:03:17 almost enough to disable js 22:03:50 -!- M0ny has quit. 22:03:53 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:08:50 -!- Sneezle has joined. 22:10:53 "I am designing a VGA+PS/2 keyboard/mouse box to replace the console." 22:10:54 <3 22:14:14 "Note: LISP Machines themselves are Y2K compliant, for if ever your date overflows from fixnum format, the hardware will automatically use bignum instead, transparently for the user" 22:14:18 god, i love lispms 22:15:16 God, that's awesome. 22:15:56 ehird, iirc some system clock issue still 22:16:18 Yes 22:16:51 http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/keyboard-9647.jpg 22:16:51 HA 22:16:52 Better stop talking to me, people; you'll become idiotic. <-- I never claimed "idiotic". Just temporarily incompatible with either my communication model or ehird's (pikhq often falls in this category) 22:16:55 Control in the bottom row 22:16:57 ais seems to manage still 22:17:07 Proving that the caps lock remappers are stupid! 22:17:14 Control in the bottom row ftw! 22:17:22 ehird, eh yeah? 22:17:30 why should it be elsewhere 22:17:34 AnMaster: many people swap caps lock and control, supposedly to be more ergonomic 22:17:37 These people know nothing about ergonomics. 22:17:39 uhu 22:17:42 They hate their pinkies with a fiery passion. 22:17:48 I have Caps Lock as another control. 22:17:49 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:17:59 ehird, are you sure that keyboard you linked is ergonomic though? 22:18:08 AnMaster: Not globally 22:18:12 But control being there is MORE ergonomic 22:18:17 than where capslock would be 22:18:17 right 22:18:21 ehird, also, i18n 22:18:24 and l10n 22:18:29 what about it 22:18:30 Also, what sort of freaky hands do you have that makes *anything* where Ctrl is ergonomic? 22:18:36 ehird, I want one with åäö as well 22:18:42 pikhq: MORE ergonomic. 22:18:49 But look at the lisp machine keyboard; it has control right next to spacebar. 22:18:52 *That* is perfect. 22:18:55 I suggest a control pedal 22:18:58 That's where command is on Apple keyboards 22:19:00 Oh, *there*. 22:19:01 and it works brilliantly 22:19:03 ehird, no it isn't 22:19:07 Yes, it i 22:19:07 s 22:19:14 that is under the middle of my palm 22:19:23 ...what? 22:19:25 while about tab would be good for ctrl for my hands 22:19:26 oh 22:19:32 well, your hands are too big 22:19:35 ehird, you have small hands 22:19:36 so nobody cares. 22:19:40 Yeah, that is under my palm as well. 22:19:51 ehird, it is you who have small hands 22:19:56 My thumb has to curl in almost entirely to hit that. 22:19:57 evidently steve jobs has small hands too. 22:19:58 caps lock as ctrl would be nice 22:20:02 ... 22:20:03 better than current ctrl 22:20:04 no, it won't 22:20:06 at least 22:20:08 it's dangerous 22:20:11 for your fingers 22:20:12 ehird, not for YOUR hands no 22:20:12 And the current Ctrl, well... 22:20:17 no, I mean in general 22:20:21 there is no way it can be ergonomic 22:20:22 pikhq, xmodmap line? 22:20:26 My finger almost comes out of its socket hitting the normal control. 22:20:36 (http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/photos/IO/keyboard-9647.jpg / square, circle and triangle; where's the x? how are they going to make a playstation emulator?!) 22:20:43 pikhq, or similar 22:20:55 current ctrl is nice when you go for ctrl-h or so 22:21:04 but caps lock would work fine then too 22:21:14 Is purl.org unlikely to die anytime soon? 22:21:18 keysym Caps_Lock = Control_L 22:21:21 Also, I lost my PURL password 22:21:34 pikhq, thanks 22:21:42 purl.org dying is very unlikely. 22:21:45 ehird: Ctrl as caps lock is the only option that doesn't almost make my finger go out of its socket. 22:21:50 I'm going to claim that as ergonomic. 22:21:59 pikhq, how to reload 22:22:28 AnMaster: Uh. keysym Caps_Lock = Caps_Lock? 22:22:35 pikhq, no I mean 22:22:41 reload the xmodmaprc file 22:22:47 xmodmap -e xmodmaprc 22:23:04 xmodmap: unknown command on line commandline:1 22:23:05 eh 22:23:12 I used PURL once, but the place it linked to is gone, and I can't log in :( 22:23:25 Also, can I use a PURL address for openID purposes? 22:23:37 pikhq, ^ 22:23:51 pikhq, isn't the right file ~/.xmodmaprc iirc? 22:23:54 Make, say, /NET/sgeo/openid link to an HTML page that does whatever OpenID stuff is needed? 22:23:56 AnMaster: No -e 22:24:03 Sgeo_: Yes. 22:24:09 Yay! 22:24:16 well 22:24:17 Sgeo_: But just direct it directly to your openid provider. 22:24:18 it doesn't work 22:24:23 Much simpler. 22:24:24 caps lock is still caps lock 22:24:25 ehird, 302s work that way? 22:24:30 any idea? 22:24:38 Sgeo_: If they don't work that way, then directing it to an html page is useless 22:24:38 $ cat ~/.xmodmaprc 22:24:38 keysym Caps_Lock = Control_L 22:24:41 as it'd only work as long as the html page 22:24:46 thus defeating the point of a purl 22:24:46 so yes 22:24:49 and now: 22:24:50 $ xmodmap ~/.xmodmaprc 22:24:51 xmodmap: /home/arvid/.xmodmaprc:1: bad keysym target keysym 'Caps_Lock', no corresponding keycodes 22:24:51 xmodmap: 1 error encountered, aborting. 22:24:52 what? 22:25:18 and it still does damn caps lock function 22:25:26 well, tell me what is wrong pikhq! 22:25:32 Yay, I remember my PURL password! 22:25:35 http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/KanjiTablet1.jpeg ; symbolics kanji keyboard 22:25:44 Sgeo_: btw, most people use /net/, not /NET/ 22:25:55 Ah >.> 22:26:12 Sgeo_: What I'd do is, have http://purl.org/net/sgeo 22:26:24 Point this at an HTML page with the openid meta tags pointing to whatever provider 22:26:29 as well as a home page if you want 22:26:35 i.e., don't have a separate openid page 22:26:37 I can't just point it to the provider? 22:26:38 since the openid is "you" 22:26:43 Sgeo_: see ↑ 22:26:52 Oh 22:26:53 having a separate openid page is technically fine, but kinda misses the point 22:27:00 plus, http://purl.org/net/sgeo is shorter :P 22:27:11 I think I'm just going to point it to the provider for now 22:27:26 sure, point is that it can represent non-openid too 22:28:10 "We made our own 22:28:10 monitor electronics, our own laser-printer electronics, we wrote 22:28:10 the microcode, we wrote the operating system, and so on, but making 22:28:10 our own keys was, finally, below the level of abstraction that demarked 22:28:11 our build/buy line. We were really, really crazy, but we were not 22:28:11 really, really, really, really crazy." 22:31:16 pikhq, 22:31:20 pikhq, what worked was: 22:31:27 setxkbmap -option ctrl:nocaps 22:31:33 xmodmap just doesn't work at all 22:31:43 pikhq, might be interesting to know 22:33:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:34:18 night 22:34:36 or why else would he quit the computer? 22:34:48 mainly because i was going to take the bus afterwards 22:34:56 oh ok 22:35:01 night really 22:35:43 and i've had the bad luck before of going into the shower without turning off the computer, coming back to catch up on irc, and missing the bus :/D 22:37:12 ...he has a water proof computer! 22:37:22 logic is a marvelous thing, isn't it :) 22:39:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:39:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 22:45:10 ehird, when I try using Purl, the sites still say that my identity is the underlying provider 22:45:20 Yes, of course. 22:45:28 Sgeo_: but they'll identify you by the purl url, no? 22:45:35 Therefore if you change the purl location, you can still login. 22:45:49 -!- oklokok has joined. 22:45:53 ehird, seems to me that they'd identify me by the provider 22:46:10 Sgeo_: Well, try it and see. 22:46:16 Log in as your purl, change your purl to another provider, try again. 22:46:22 Not now, I have other stuff to deal with 22:46:29 Sgeo_: Create another purl to do it if you want to avoid breaking things. 22:52:19 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:03:57 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:10:34 -!- kwertii has joined. 23:13:52 -!- ehird has quit. 23:27:39 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:39:04 -!- ehird has joined. 23:41:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:49:36 -!- kwertii has quit ("bye"). 23:49:58 -!- kwertii has joined. 23:52:07 there should be spoons that close up once you put something on them then open when they reach your mouth. my hands are shaking :P 23:52:25 ehird: I believe those are called "tongs" 23:52:43 Grog. There's a charity that was founded to provide free healthcare to third world countries. Said charity is providing healthcare in the US. 23:52:43 :P 23:52:50 ... Because we need it more than they do. 23:52:57 "Marge... do we have any of those things that you use to... dig.... food....?" 23:53:31 pikhq: It's entirely possible your healthcare system is worse :P 23:53:39 kwertii: shaddap you 23:54:08 ehird: In poorer regions, our life expectancy is about on par with Bosnia. 23:54:33 Lucky Bosnia! 23:54:38 Cuba's overall life expectancy is higher than the US 23:54:57 kwertii: And their healthcare system is a bit better. 23:55:09 pikhq: US healthcare is the best in the world.... if you're rich 23:55:35 "Rich" as in "can pay for it all yourself, no insurance needed". 23:55:37 yep 23:55:58 Republicans don't seem to realise that if they want their granny not to be brutally murdered by a death panel (I mean, assuming that would happen, which it wouldn't) they could just do what they're doing now and pay for it... 23:56:11 and yet poor people are going out to heckle congressional representatives on behalf of the insurance companies *sighs* 23:56:22 Unless they're okay with their grannies dying as long as a "death panel" wasn't involved :P 23:57:17 "death panel" is one of their linguists' contrivances (like "death tax" and "tax relief") to push their agenda subtly even when opponents talk by the inherent framing of the debate in those terms. (cf. Don't Think of an Elephant by George Lakoff) 23:57:42 of course 23:57:57 I'm just in awe that the republicans don't understand that it's not mandatory 23:57:59 and I have to say, the Democrats really, really suck at that sort of thing. They control both houses of Congress and have the most popular president in 40 years, and they *still* can't get healthcare reform passed. 23:58:14 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:58:21 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:58:26 ehird: they understand perfectly well at the higher levels. the rank-and-file are stupid and easily manipulable 23:58:30 they're not even trying to push the best model - single payer health care 23:58:36 the reform they want is a total compromise 23:59:31 ehird: http://incredimazing.com/static/media/2009/08/19/Itawb/itawb.jpg 23:59:53 remind me why people like the US :-P