2009-08-01: 00:00:00 and it's almost certainly possible to stop it doing that 00:00:03 Tcl only pollutes (n). 00:00:10 pikhq: yes, and 'man x' searches (n) 00:00:13 well, cpan puts everything in section 3perl 00:00:21 but as ehird says, that's not particularly useful 00:00:24 * dear_my_inner_ra decides to learn how to read analog clocks by setting his Mac's menubar clock to it 00:00:31 dear_my_inner_ra: What, would you prefer for there not to be man pages of it? 00:00:32 ehird: use a decimal clock 00:00:39 ais523: nothx :P 00:00:39 I implemented a decimal clock applet for windows ages ago 00:00:44 incidentally, it's about 0 right now 00:00:47 over here 00:00:53 ais523: maybe i'll try swatch time 00:01:05 decimal time's like that but with two more decimal places 00:01:10 it's about @0 00:01:14 and local time, rather than UTC+1 for no apparent reason 00:01:34 ais523: erm, swatch time is utc 00:01:39 no, it's UTC+1 00:01:42 thus it being @0 around now 00:01:46 oh 00:01:50 well that's due to where it's based 00:01:52 but i don't really acre 00:01:53 care 00:01:53 yes 00:01:57 one hour makes little difference 00:02:03 also, since 1 beat = 1 minute and 26.4 seconds, I don't feel the need for more precision 00:02:11 otoh, it only works if you're near that timezone 00:02:25 10 = about 15 minutes, which is more generally useful 00:02:28 otherwise, saying "oh, it's @200, happy midnight" is very unnatural 00:02:31 as I tend to think in units of about 15 minutes 00:02:40 i tend to micromanage time. 00:02:46 yes, well it's @0, which is only midnight because we're in summertime atm 00:02:57 about @1 or @2 now, I suppose 00:03:04 yes 00:03:07 also, saying "happy midnight" is unnatural no matter what the circumstances 00:03:12 grr, if you have the analog clock in os x, you can't get the digital time in the menu 00:03:23 ais523: true, the term usually used is "happy today" 00:03:34 ehird: are you trolling? 00:03:35 despite that not making any sense 00:03:42 ais523: no, that's actually what I and friends say. 00:03:47 it's a habit 00:03:54 over here I mostly hear "it's tomorrow" 00:04:02 but that makes even less sense! 00:04:06 -!- oerjan has set topic: Please only change one character at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.. 00:04:08 "happy today" might just be saying, hey, it's today, that's cool 00:04:16 so it makes marginally more sense 00:04:53 -!- ais523 has set topic: Please only chance one word at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.. 00:05:02 -!- ais523 has set topic: Please only chance one character at a time in this topic. Also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.. 00:05:07 whoops 00:05:14 *ahem* 00:07:29 Are you a Gmail user, or do you have friends who are? Do you resent the "Sponsored Link" advertisements that come up next to the incoming mail? Now you and your friends can do something about it! 00:07:29 The solution is simple, when sending an email to a gmail user include a sentence or two that mentions catastrophic events or tragedies. Google does not use humans to read your email, only computers. These computers search for keywords that trigger the advertisements, however, if they hapen to find a catastrophic event or tragedy Google errs on the side of good taste and removes the ads altogether. 00:07:29 You may want to make mention of what you are doing so the recipient is not alarmed by your sudden Tourette's-like outburst. You can link to this site by way of explanation if need be. 00:07:32 http://homepage.mac.com/joester5/art/gmail.html 00:07:56 -!- dear_my_inner_ra has set topic: PS. Suicide death 9/11 murder http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:08:04 The link to our logs is considered sensitive by gmail. True fact. 00:08:17 -!- ais523 has set topic: ehird was banned from this topic due to violating the topic rules. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.. 00:08:59 -!- dear_my_inner_ra has set topic: ehird ~~ BANNED ~~ AVATAR! ~~ This COOKIE tastes like VIOLENCE! ~~ Posts: 34,383 ~~ Joined: Jan 2001 ~~ Signature: check out my great forum: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:09:12 -!- oerjan has set topic: Ceci n'est pas un topic. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.. 00:09:12 Forums! They're like crap but worse. 00:09:27 -!- dear_my_inner_ra has set topic: Ceci n'est pas valid French. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:09:52 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:09:55 ok, I like that topic 00:10:12 -!- Halph has joined. 00:10:12 magritte would be proud 00:10:18 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 00:10:44 too clever by halph 00:27:13 oerjan: so's your mom 00:30:04 -!- ais523 has quit ("no apparent reason"). 00:38:36 -!- dear_my_inner_ra has quit. 01:01:53 * pikhq is vaguely in the mood to fiddle with little-used OSes 01:02:14 If MachTen were gratis, I'd be fiddling with that. 01:27:27 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 01:27:27 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 02:33:05 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:49:42 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:54:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:21:18 -!- augur has joined. 03:27:04 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:45:23 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:52:51 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:10:21 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 04:13:39 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:20:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:35:21 -!- immibis has joined. 04:43:01 -!- ab5tract has joined. 04:43:11 -!- ab5tract has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:13:22 -!- centrinia has joined. 05:18:53 -!- Pthing has joined. 06:01:11 -!- centrinia has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 06:21:55 -!- coppro has joined. 06:22:40 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 06:58:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 09:06:12 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 09:09:10 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Client Quit). 11:23:22 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:33:32 -!- Asztal has joined. 11:46:06 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:51:10 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:14:04 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:23:09 -!- Asztal has joined. 12:24:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:37:19 -!- ehird has joined. 12:44:13 Zoop. 12:52:58 happy mailman mailing list reminders day 12:57:09 uh oh, guys 12:57:15 I've found precedent that we're using the wrong name for that 12:57:36 http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/437 came before http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/1226, so we must assume the former is the original (especially since that's Hixie's kind of joke) 12:57:42 so it should be 12:57:50 happy mailman mailing list memberships reminders day 12:57:50 and 12:57:58 happy australian mailman mailing list memberships reminders day 12:58:04 AMMLMRD 13:00:06 "More fucking particles, really, science? You know what? 13:00:06 Fuck you. I'm not even trying to understand it, now." 13:00:06 — http://io9.com/5327313/meet-two-new-quantum-particles-spinons-and-holons 13:15:31 -!- immibis has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:40:52 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Gravity/w/ <-- Delety 13:42:09 Can you protect a non-existant page from being created, with mediawiki? 13:43:40 yes 13:44:12 That talk page could probably make use of it 13:56:48 Slereah_: you can? 13:57:22 I know that wikis have a lot of non-existant pages blocked from creation 13:59:44 wiki admins: please delete this bullshit http://esolangs.org/wiki/Compute 13:59:51 not even funny any more 13:59:59 completely tired of shit like that 14:01:20 E 14:01:21 S 14:01:22 M 14:01:23 E 14:01:37 huh http://4mhz.de/ 14:01:38 (21 Jul 2009) Some days ago, I received a voucher copy of c't extra Programmieren 02/09, a special issue of c't (a German IT magazine). They published Brainfuck Developer on DVD. In the article, there's even a screenshot ;) It's nice to see the work you've done recognized. 14:02:05 So they stole his program? :o 14:04:02 Copying digital information isn't stealing 14:05:10 http://esolangs.org/wiki/More ← needs more has-been-deletedness 14:05:17 I'm no MPAA people, you know what I 14:05:19 mean! 14:05:30 Slereah_: no, because stealing implies a bad thing 14:05:47 I'm mostly asking if they asked him first 14:05:56 Otherwise, it is a bad thing. 14:06:59 Copying digital information is not a bad thing. 14:07:41 I want to read that article now 14:07:50 I want to read YOUR MOM 14:08:08 <_> 14:11:48 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:14:06 FireFly: <<_Xo 14:39:05 Not if they make profit from it :o 14:45:47 -!- Judofyr has joined. 14:46:25 Slereah_: you're wrong :p 14:47:08 But being wrong is right 14:47:17 So then you're good again 14:47:22 Which is the evilest thing of all! 14:48:07 Wow. 14:50:25 http://sites.google.com/site/yacoset/Home/physics-for-programmers 14:51:07 [[Now this is a story all about how my viewpoint flipped-turned upside down, and I'd like to take a minute, just sit right there, I'll tell you how I became a fan of our friend X M L. 14:51:08 In North Mopac Boulevard, castin rays, on the PC is where I spent most of my days. Chillin out, haxin, refraxin all cool, I was shootin some photons through a polybool. Then a couple of rays who were up to no good, started causing errors in their neighborhood. I wrote one little script and Maya got scared, she said "You're usin up all the memory IRIX can spare!"]] 14:51:14 — http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/96dg0/nobody_who_uses_xml_knows_what_they_are_doing/c0bky64 14:52:49 the idea of generalizing physics to the actual generation of code isnt actually that farfetched in some ways, i think the connections between information theory, physics, and computational systems are well established now 14:53:34 mycroftiv: i think you overestimate the seriousness 14:54:15 ehird: oh, i just like looking for the elements of truth that are what makes humor funny, i think - because these principles are actually pretty factual 14:54:35 for instance: 14:54:44 4. A gas will always expand to fill the volume of its container 14:54:45 All possible race conditions shall happen at some point in the life of a program. 14:55:02 that is basically 'spot on' - because both are entirely about the stochastic exploration of a state space 14:55:02 mycroftiv: you're kooky :D 14:55:06 but fun 14:56:05 ehird: be careful, i might get started on W.H. Zurek and the implications of his work, and then everyone will be sorry they asked 14:56:23 but we're not going to ask! 14:56:35 and no, hes not some crank, hes one of the world's most respected theoreticians of quantum physics 14:56:40 you are smart 14:57:26 Your are smart. 14:58:06 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8177285.stm 14:58:08 teehee 14:58:21 mycroftiv: You should talk to Slereah_, he works on the LHC or something. 14:58:25 Maybe you could get him to collide programs. 14:58:27 I wonder what would be my fine 14:58:44 The judge would be like ONE TRILLION DOLLARS 14:59:38 Slereah_: you do fundamental physics work? 14:59:59 Yeah 15:00:05 Well, internship right now 15:00:10 I'm a physics fundamentalist 15:00:10 I'm still doing my master 15:00:25 THOU SHALT HAVE NO ELEMENTARY PARTICLES APART FROM QUARKS 15:01:11 Slereah_: cool, i know its a big field, but have you checked out W.H. Zurek's work on what he calls 'quantum darwinism' - basically a much extended attack on the quantum measurement problem that extends the decoherence paradigm significantly? 15:01:19 No. 15:01:36 xD 15:01:46 its really awesome work, imo, although i have to take a fair amount of the mathematical foundation 'on faith' - but its all peer reviewed and seems very solid, decades of work 15:02:20 i'm a get a fun argument going 15:02:26 Slereah_: Copenhagen or MWI?! 15:02:29 mycroftiv: Copenhagen or MWI?! 15:02:35 *i'ma, of course 15:03:00 ehird: zurek's quantum darwinism, it settles these questions definitively imo - it descends from MWI style thinking but is really quite different 15:03:13 the name itself makes me suspicious. 15:03:15 ehird: want me to summarize? 15:03:26 ehird: yeah i know it sounds like a lame neologism, im not sure he should ahve picked it 15:03:37 you can summarise if you wish 15:03:39 ehird: but it makes sense in a way after the concept is explained 15:03:40 hehehehe 15:04:05 in short, zurek's work is based on very careful and detailed study of how information is transferred between systems at the quantum level 15:04:06 currently, though I'm physicstarded, I'm an MWI-er 15:04:26 mycroftiv: you might want to dumb it down a bit btw :P 15:04:29 for a 'measurement' to happen - for us to perceive the world - information has to be transmitted through a large series of interactions 15:04:32 i am 15:04:38 good 15:04:38 :P 15:05:17 what zurek shows (mostly by pure mathematical manipulation of the fundamental, well tested equations of qed) is that the transmission of information between systems at the quantum level has very definite tendencies 15:05:32 in the case of the famous 'schrodingers cat' experiment, you can summarize it as this: 15:05:36 i love the name of QED 15:05:38 it's so assertive 15:05:41 how can you argue with QED?! 15:06:06 the reason you never see a half-alive, half-dead cat is that there are rules that determine the kind of information that can be successfully transmitted into the future 15:06:16 mycroftiv: Hey, man, don't make assumptions about what I never see. 15:06:35 and that quantum states that are 'nonsensical' simply do not make 'copies' of themselves in the form of transmitting information forward in time 15:06:48 perhaps they 'happen', but that information can never reach our sense perceptions 15:06:54 I'm not seeing how this really relates to MWI like you said 15:07:09 because our perceiving an event in the world means that our particles have become part of an entangled quantum state 15:07:18 ehird: because the idea is that just like in many world interpretation, 'everything happens' 15:07:38 but unlike MWI, zurek has mathematically studied the dynamics of how information moves between the states and how it goes forward in time 15:07:54 so you're saying that everything happens in _one_ universe or sth? 15:07:58 so rather than a 'branching' universe, you have a universe that represents the *fittest* collection of information 15:08:01 ehird: yes! 15:08:02 this isn't really making any sense to me and I don't see how it relates to darwin at all :P 15:08:12 everything happens in our universe - but we only perceive the 'fittest' information 15:08:13 mycroftiv: doesn't occam's razor apply a bit here? 15:08:18 because only that information is of the form to transmit itself into the future 15:08:23 what does zurek achieve that mwi doesn't 15:08:28 as mwi certainly seems simpler 15:08:31 mathematical meaningfulness mostly 15:08:40 he makes many more predictions and statemnts and the analysis is vastly more fine grained 15:08:49 Is zurek compatible with mwi? 15:08:51 ehird: MWI is basically a philosophical idea - zurek's work is really hard math 15:08:54 As in, does it contradict any part of mwi? 15:09:01 mycroftiv: there have been plenty papers published on mwi /shrug 15:09:08 i know that 15:09:16 zurek descends from wheeler's tradition in this 15:09:32 he absolutely bases his work on the same principle, of taking what the actual structure of the quantum equations say 'seriously' 15:09:44 here im gonna linke the massive and awesome summary paper that was in Nature recently, the arxiv version 15:09:48 you can judge for yourself 15:10:00 this represents a summary of decades of well respected, peer reviewed, mainstream work 15:10:06 my brain will probably leak out i'm afraid 15:10:36 http://arxiv.org/pdf/0903.5082 15:11:49 i really think the quality of the work as pure physics/math is superlative, and that the philosophical implications are absolutely staggering 15:12:08 even more so than MWI actually 15:12:28 To bypass these obstacles Bohr [1] followed Alexander 15:12:28 the Great’s example: Rather than try disentangling the 15:12:28 Gordian Knot at the beginning of his conquest, he cut 15:12:28 it. 15:12:28 ↑ am i the only one who hates such crappy analogies? 15:12:35 sigh. 15:12:48 i think that is an excellent analogy, but it is also completely irrelevant 15:12:57 that is pure literary style, nothing to do with the content of the research or its claims 15:13:07 shush you i'm allowed to complain about it if i want :) 15:13:16 hey, i aint quashing no free speech 15:13:30 but the evil cabal of fizzie and lament are. 15:13:34 * mycroftiv summons his black helicopters of physics interpretation censorship 15:13:37 for definitions of are equal to would if they did. 15:16:28 mycroftiv: well i'm sure i'll read that paper sometime in my life… like perhaps when I think it won't totally go over my head. 15:16:30 Yes, I certainly rule the channel with an IRON FIST, no-one can deny that. 15:17:02 fizzie: Every time you talk I quiver in my boots! 15:17:04 I don't even have boots. 15:17:29 On re-reading my second last line, I read it as "boobs". 15:17:35 Freud would have a field day. 15:17:58 ehird: well, the idea that the universe we perceive == the subset of the total of all quantum states that possess information dynamics corresponding to a 'universe that makes sense' is the idea 15:18:15 and Zurek shows imo convincingly this is a simple and strict consequence of the base equations themselves 15:18:38 you seem to be talking about it like it's objective 15:18:43 i believe it is 15:18:45 but i doubt it's that clear-cut, as in a logical consequence 15:19:14 i believe zurek has succeeded in mathematically deriving an information-theoretic fundamental ontology of the universe from the most experimentally well confirmed physical theory we have 15:19:43 so - and i know this is a fucking nuts claim that scientists would back away from - i think science has now solved the class8ic ontological problems of philosophy to a large extent 15:19:46 If it was truly an objective, formal logic consequence, I'd have almost certainly heard about it due to it being huge. 15:20:07 -!- M0ny has joined. 15:20:10 (Litmus test: if you go on about the man oppressing the fundamental nature of the universe now, you're a quack. :P) 15:20:26 ehird: well, the thing is that the quantum measurement problem is not regarded as 'sexy' necessarily by the physics community, string theory has been regarded more as where its at, and cosmological issues 15:20:44 so i think there is a lot of contingent historical circumstance that means the full significance isnt really understood 15:20:52 Seriously? All I've heard about string theory points it to being a fringe theory that no serious physicist believes due to it being undisprovable. 15:20:55 ehird: but zurek is not a quack, study his biography and his positions 15:20:59 ehird: exactly!! 15:21:08 ehird: but that is only a very recent and 'popular' opinion 15:21:17 for most of the past 20 years, string theory was what most people worked on 15:21:21 I suppose. 15:21:23 following andrew witten extensively 15:21:46 It's hard to believe, really. 15:21:50 ehird: and really most working physicists came to believe that the quantum measurement problem was either not important, or already satisfactorily solved 15:21:55 I mean, working on something undisprovable? 15:22:02 Might as well develop a theory of invisible pink unicorns. 15:22:25 and as i say zurek's work is far from obscure, - it is the mainstream of modern work on QED, and not challenged by anyone so far as i know 15:22:42 mycroftiv: Isn't the copenhagen interpretation the standard fare? 15:22:52 That's the impression I've had, at least 15:23:04 not so much any more, the decoherent paradigm really has taken over i think 15:23:10 Hmm. 15:23:26 i think reading at the semi-popular level is likely to convey a somewhat misleading impression 15:24:30 im not a degree- carrying researcher, but ive made a serious effort to move from a 'laymans' understanding to a true technical level and follow the current research directly - and the real state of the community opinion isnt really captured well by the standard summaries of the ideas on quantum measurement 15:25:14 the thing is that people like the 'narrative' of quantum mechanics being all spooky/crazy/not understood 15:25:45 thats still the dominant trope of whatever popular discourse there tends to be, so the fact that a rather technical and detailed analysis of the theory has shown its not actually like that has just not made a huge impression on the world 15:27:21 i mean, the fact is that the average 'educated, intelligent, rational person' is still using a set of conceptual tools that basically encodes the euclidean/newtonian analytic framework 15:27:25 at best! 15:28:42 :P 15:29:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:29:05 hi ais523 15:30:31 hi 15:32:00 ehird: btw, in re: string theory - the motivations of the string theory researchers actually do make a lot of sense fundaemntally, even though a lot of people now think that approach wont really get us anwywhere 15:32:27 our current best physical theories all have the fundamental mathematical fact in common of being strongly related to symmetry groups 15:32:53 theres a very important theorem called noether's theorem that connects symmetries to conservation laws, as a consequence 15:33:08 so, the string theorists idea is to hunt for more symmetries, basically 15:33:22 the mathematics of string theory is amazing, from a group-theoretical symmetry perspective 15:33:35 so that is why it was very appealing as a source for mathematical ideas for physics 15:34:00 in fact, much incredibly important research *has* been done by string theory - but it has turned out to be 'pure math' more than physics 15:34:06 theres nothing wrong with pure math though 15:34:30 but people get irritated when purely theoretical mathematical structures with no discrernable connection to reality start claiming to be the fundamental building blocks of everything ;) 15:34:41 foop doop 15:35:06 am i being tiresome? 15:38:47 what does "making sense" mean 15:39:18 Pthing: mispelled double antonym of 'losing dollars' ? 15:39:41 plausibly, but I doubt the world is quite ready for a theory unifying finance and fundamental physics 15:40:00 Pthing: I'm not sure, I think it makes dollars and sense 15:40:17 mycroftiv: not tiresome, i'm just bored of that subject now ;) 15:40:22 Pthing: actually, i honestly think we are - i think for instance Wolfram and others have good theories about general mathematical rules for complex dynamic systems 15:40:26 well I'm not 15:40:32 ehird: may i interest you in some plan9 from bell labs>? 15:40:39 Yeah well, Wolfram is his own worst enemy in that respect 15:40:43 mycroftiv: i already like plan 9 :P 15:40:58 He doesn't have good theories, he has *expansive* theories 15:41:12 but he tells you they're good enough times 15:41:36 Pthing: hm but he also does real research and publishes stuff and makes tools, does he not? so i dont think it can be said to be purely hot air 15:41:49 Well, the people he *hires* does real research and publishes stuff 15:41:51 Wolfram's theories tend to be rather vague and use brute-forcing to fill in the details 15:42:02 that's quite interesting for small-scale things, but I don't think it scales up 15:42:02 ais523: BUT THE UNIVERSAL 2,3 TURING MACHINE 15:42:06 YOU DID IT, DON'T YOU _BELIEVE_?! 15:42:11 ehird: yes, it was found via brute force 15:42:14 ais523: well, doesnt the universe itself 'brute force' itself a lot? 15:42:20 it's you— er, his— most important result of the CENTURY! 15:42:25 Finding something through brute force isn't the problem 15:42:29 the four colour problem was brute forced 15:42:31 the PROBLEM 15:42:41 mycroftiv: oh, yes; it certainly works in theory, just it tends not to work for really big things because it takes a prohibitively long time 15:42:44 is that Wolfram goes off with the principle of computational bollocks or whatever it was 15:42:54 yes 15:43:04 which is not even philosophically well placed 15:43:11 ((ais523 won the Wolfram Prize for the 2,3 turing machine thingy)) 15:43:18 really 15:43:19 (((to give context to my jokes))) 15:43:23 Pthing: yuh: http://www.wolframscience.com/prizes/tm23/ 15:43:42 Pthing: I think it's an attempt to generalise the Church-Turing thesis, possibly doomed to failure because nobody agrees on how to state the original thesis in the first place 15:43:49 yes! 15:43:51 that's what I mean. 15:44:03 It's a very emotionally appealing idea 15:44:14 wow, im seriously star struck to be in the presence of people who do the work that i regard as incredibly importnat 15:44:19 lol 15:44:21 * mycroftiv asks for autograph, seriously 15:44:30 mycroftiv: it's a bit hard over the internet 15:44:33 * mycroftiv IM NOT WORTHIES 15:44:35 ais523: you should become a celebrity 15:44:36 hehe 15:44:42 How about a handjob? 15:44:42 you've got a better claim to fame than paris hilton! 15:44:42 shall I digitally sign a document and send it to you? 15:44:53 haha 15:44:58 digital autographs are the things in the future 15:45:14 I'm interested in 15:45:15 well 15:45:19 I'd *like* to be interested in 15:45:32 but I don't think it's even an actual thing yet 15:46:11 some kind of built-up computational discipline about biological systems 15:46:20 it's part of natural computation, sure 15:46:55 i note that over time this channel gradually transforms from an esolang channel to just plain esoteric 15:47:08 well in the broad sense the discovery of DNA was really just that, wasnt it? 15:47:16 hmm... what sort of thing do you normally write in autographs? 15:47:17 i mean, the mapping of DNA == source code for biology is pretty strict 15:47:22 Yeaahhhh sort of, the whole molecular biology thing 15:47:32 mycroftiv: except that there seems to be lots of side-channel information too 15:47:41 ais523: "Alex Smith", I suppose 15:47:42 But there's no real basis for a theoretical view of it 15:47:44 ais523: use M-x artist-mode 15:47:45 the DNA doesn't encode everything, even though in theory they could 15:47:50 to make it all signature-looking! 15:47:52 it's all either been elucidation of the precise mechanisms 15:47:56 ais523: yeah that kind of generalization is really sloppy, im not claiming that as 'fact', but i think as maps and metaphors go, its amazingly strong 15:48:06 I thought autographs were addressed to someone in particular 15:48:19 ais523: i think that's mostly via implied ownership of the item in question. 15:48:20 and besides, it's the digital sig that would contain my name, just like traditional analog sigs are where you put your name 15:48:38 ooh, I know what I could send 15:48:41 ais523: make a file with 24 lines of 80 spaces, then 15:48:42 and sign that 15:48:42 a digitally signed INTERCAL addition 15:48:45 it's a blank piece of paper 15:48:46 i believe we now know that cells are not so much a single centrally organized thing but in fact a kind of ecosystem all in their own, with independently evolved structures, right? 15:48:54 Well yeah sorta 15:48:56 mycroftiv: trippy 15:49:02 yo dawg i heard you like ecosystems so etc 15:49:04 with a kind of complex flow of information and processes between viruses, dna/rna, mitochondria, etc 15:49:04 You can go dumb with it 15:50:01 -!- Lim has joined. 15:50:14 information theory is obviously fundamental to life just because maintaining low entropy is key to the definition 15:50:23 hello Lim 15:50:29 who/what/where brought you here 15:50:32 /when 15:50:41 hello 15:50:54 I can't see the theory getting going until people start to properly engineer genomes 15:50:59 We're just starting to now 15:51:23 i can speak in french ? 15:51:31 The other problem is that the point of computer science is that it's so general 15:52:01 if i was going to put a bet on where we might get a truly amazing fundamental breakthrough - if we could 'crack the neural code' of whats going on in the brain in an analogous way to our current tracing of genetics... 15:52:02 that the architecture isn't frightfully important, so whether you can do anything on a particularly deep level *specifically* about biological computation is doubtful 15:52:06 Lim: can you? 15:52:10 we might not understand you though 15:52:13 mycroftiv: http://pastebin.ca/raw/1514846 15:52:17 there you go, a digital autograph 15:52:20 Pthing: Engineering genomes has gotten started. 15:52:23 that thing expires in 15 minutes, be sure to save a copy 15:52:24 yes 15:52:27 Lim: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Treachery_of_Images 15:52:30 is what the topic references 15:52:34 not a french channel :P 15:52:38 -!- impomatic has joined. 15:52:41 hi impomatic 15:52:42 Hi :-) 15:52:52 ok 15:52:54 ais523: thank you! 15:52:56 !translateto Lim: what channel did you expect this to be? 15:52:57 er 15:52:59 !translateto fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be? 15:53:04 !translatefromto en fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be? 15:53:06 I heard about it at USENIX in 2008; there was a freaking genetic programming language they had devised and were using to modify bacteria. 15:53:11 oh 15:53:13 `translatefromto en fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be? 15:53:16 ehird: is that an EgoBot or HackEgo feature? 15:53:18 ;_; 15:53:22 `translateto fr Lim: what channel did you expect this to be? 15:53:24 HackEGo isn't here 15:53:24 I had not heard of an actual programming language 15:53:27 darn 15:53:28 which might explain why it isn't working 15:53:30 or what that would imply :| 15:53:32 `join 15:53:37 pity, doesn't work... 15:53:42 Lim: qu'est-ce que vous pensez que cette chaîne était d'environ? 15:53:53 you don't mean the iGEM parts, do you? 15:54:02 ehird: run through an online translator? 15:54:06 ais523: yuhuh :) 15:54:09 je me suis dit qu'on parle d'esoterisme ici 15:54:30 et je suis venu voir 15:54:46 Lim: bizarre ( «ésotériques»), les langages de programmation, en fait. mais nous sommes surtout hors sujet! 15:55:02 ah ok 15:55:17 I think Lim was probably referring to the topic 15:55:17 ici on parle de programmation !! 15:55:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:55:27 Qui a dit que Google Translate ne fonctionne pas? 15:55:28 ais523: agreed 15:55:33 un patois 15:55:34 Lim: :-) 15:55:54 :) 15:56:06 -!- ehird has set topic: This is not valable Anglais. http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:56:43 * ais523 wonders what the second most spoken language is here 15:56:45 ok byr 15:56:53 -!- Lim has left (?). 15:56:54 maybe Korean? there certainly used to be quite a few Koreans here 15:57:00 Finnish. 15:57:03 oh, ofc 15:57:21 Has #esoteric officially switched languages? 15:57:29 impomatic: Just to talk to someone ;-) 15:57:40 ais523: Deewiant, fizzie, Ilari, ineiros 15:57:45 may be more finns hanging around 15:57:51 impomatic: nah, it was a one-off joke 15:57:51 ^there 15:58:01 finns are everywhere :|| 15:58:06 ehird: but fungot doesn't have a "there" command 15:58:06 ais523: of course. to connect to ports and send things how it pleases 15:58:14 whoops, maybe it does 15:58:18 :D 15:58:20 that's quite a generic command, though 15:58:22 Je pense que nous devrions tous nous parler par l'intermédiaire de Google Translate, raison: il est fun. 15:58:29 which would explain why you gave it without arguments 15:58:46 ais523: intercal needs a command like that 15:58:49 And can anyone output the string "Hello Reddit!" in Brainfuck with a program less than 113 characters 15:58:51 connects to a random machine on a random port and sends random data 15:58:55 I think CLC-INTERCAL has one, pretty much 15:58:55 !bf_txtgen Hello Reddit! 15:59:02 ehird: no way that that will win 15:59:05 117 ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<++++++++++.>----------.-..+++++.+++++++++++.>+.>. [729] 15:59:06 bf_txtgen is rather inefficient 15:59:09 117 15:59:11 close enough 15:59:12 although, that was impressive 15:59:19 improve to taste 15:59:34 hmm 15:59:36 ok, we should be able to optimise that down 5 times 15:59:40 *5 chars 15:59:44 probably 15:59:58 Twitfuck: a Brainfuck program under 140 characters that does something fun. 16:00:11 !bf_txtgen AAAAAAAAAAAAAA 16:00:13 The uncomfortable double-meaning as cybersex over Twitter is welcomed. 16:00:14 48 +++++[>+++++++++++++>++>><<<<-]>..............>. [756] 16:00:23 ah yes, it adds a final newline 16:00:31 just removing that would shorten the program 16:00:43 you could get rid of the >+< in the loop and the >. at the end 16:00:47 is that cheating, though? 16:00:53 Deutsch, als von Natur aus komisch Sprache, ist die neue Sprache für die Übersetzung meiner Dummheit. 16:01:07 ais523: "Hello Reddit!" doesn't end with \n :P 16:01:08 impomatic: do you require a final newline? 16:01:22 lol google translate roundtripped silliness as stupidity 16:01:32 ^bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<++++++++++.>----------.-..+++++.+++++++++++.>+. 16:01:32 Hello Reddit! 16:01:45 112 characters, if I counted correctly 16:02:04 !c printf("%d",strlen("++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<++++++++++.>----------.-..+++++.+++++++++++.>+.")) 16:02:12 112 16:02:18 wow, that took longer to compile than I expected 16:02:36 I didn't include a newline in mine, so that beats the one I just posted: http://tr.im/v3ER 16:03:18 this channel embarasses people; you ask a hard question, and the bots give you an answer to it in a few seconds 16:03:33 :-) 16:03:42 we're at the forefront of the singularity! :p 16:03:47 soon, we'll just replace ourselves with bots 16:03:53 after all, the humans don't contribute all that much to the channel 16:04:14 impomatic: your Underload suggestion is pretty short 16:05:21 you should respond to the person who posted that awful BF with the bot's nice semi-optimised BF, though 16:05:34 a competent human could beat it, but I'm not sure if any would be bothered 16:05:40 (although I notice dbc is here...) 16:05:47 -!- pikhq has joined. 16:05:49 (and he's /very/ good at BF golfing) 16:05:52 Pthing: Well, it was more "programming-esque", in that it was a textual way of composing small blocks of genes with specific functioning together. 16:06:00 I responded with a hand written 113 instruction BF 16:06:11 i think ive fallen into a parallel universe, i did not realize there were places where issues like 'brainfuck code quality' were actually of community interest :) 16:06:12 yeah, they're called codons 16:06:16 ais523: dbc is amazing at all golfing 16:06:16 http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/siersig.c 16:06:19 Do you have a cite for them or something? 16:06:19 impomatic: the response doesn't seem to have shown up 16:06:27 the only entry to my chaos game method sierpinski golf in C :) 16:06:41 mycroftiv: BF code quality is done as a competitive sport, because there's no other reason to do it 16:06:49 mycroftiv: parallel universe? doesn't that contradict QUANTUM DARWINISM? 16:06:59 SEEEEEEEEEEEEERVED 16:07:00 see 16:07:04 That was my first thought 16:07:06 Speciation 16:07:19 I'll speci your ation. 16:07:24 Pthing: No, it was a speech that I saw. And it was awesome. 16:07:36 pity 16:07:41 ais523: to the extent i or people i knew preiously messed with brainfuck, just getting it to do anything was considered the 'badge of achievement' 16:07:48 Yeah. 16:08:05 mycroftiv: But that's not even all that hard! 16:08:07 ^show 16:08:07 echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble 16:08:11 ooh, we still have choo here 16:08:14 ^show choo 16:08:14 >,[>,]+32[<]>[[.>]<[<]>[-]>] 16:08:19 You can compile C into it (not well)! 16:08:20 ;) 16:08:24 ^choo Testing 16:08:24 Testing esting sting ting ing ng g 16:08:36 Strange, I see the response here 16:08:47 impomatic: Maybe you're banned :) 16:08:52 by the autospambotbannerthingy 16:09:03 I had a thing where the author of a comment s— 16:09:03 wait 16:09:04 lemme dig a link 16:09:12 sure, if you use the algorithmic approach, i dont see any reason why you couldnt procedurally port and build kde4 to/from brainfuck if you felt like building the necessary bits of glue, right? 16:09:27 KDE4, maybe not 16:09:31 impomatic: http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/94s1u/ohsorry/c0bfs8r 16:09:37 so reddit may be having issues 16:09:38 although I'm trying to do that with programs about as complicated as NetHack, via gcc-bf 16:09:40 mycroftiv: IO 16:09:42 which I need to finish some time 16:09:57 * ais523 waits for someone to mention PSOX 16:10:20 I especially love how gcc-bf has filesystem emulation going. 16:10:29 written but not tested in any way 16:10:37 and the filesystem is slightly simpler than DOS 1's 16:10:46 Still nice. 16:11:08 And since the idea is to just be a hosted implementation of C, it's not like you need a *complex* filesystem. 16:11:19 ais523: how does it compare to MFS? 16:11:32 ehird: I don't know of MFS 16:11:45 but basically, it's a malloced dictionary, implemented using linear search 16:11:50 so you couldn't really get much worse 16:11:54 ais523: it had resource forks but not directories 16:11:55 except 16:11:55 Folders existed as a concept on the original MFS-based Macintosh, but worked completely differently from the way they do on modern systems. They were visible in Finder windows, but not in the open and save dialog boxes. There was always one empty folder on the volume, and if it was altered in any way (such as by adding or renaming files), a new Empty Folder would appear, thus providing a way to create new folders. MFS stored all of the file and directory lis 16:12:06 well, bffs doesn't have directories at all 16:12:11 ting information in a single file. The Finder created the "illusion" of folders, by storing all files as a directory handle/file handle pair. To display the contents of a particular folder, MFS would scan the directory for all files in that handle. There was no need to find a separate file containing the directory listing. 16:12:11 ^bf +++++[>+++[>>+>++++>+++>+++>++<[++++<]<-]<-]>>>---.>>----.>+++..+++.>++.<<<<++++++++++.>>.-..>------.<<----.>>>+. 16:12:12 Hello Reddit! 16:12:17 ais523: yes, but MFS is more perverse 16:12:20 113 characters :-( 16:12:21 agreed 16:12:24 structured metadata but no folders… but crazily hacked up folders 16:12:33 impomatic: at least you have 3 nested loops there, which is always fun to see 16:12:39 ooh, and the innermost is unbalanced 16:12:49 that must have driven you mad trying to write that 16:12:52 :-) 16:12:53 i wonder if esotope can optimise that 16:13:01 ehird: Yes. 16:13:02 or in-between? 16:13:07 Not really, just took five minutes 16:13:10 To what extent is a good question. 16:16:01 seems I don't have a copy of in-between here to test, and I'm pretty sure I don't have a copy of esotope-bfc either 16:16:20 svn co blah 16:16:23 ok, you guys have inspired me to do something i think needs to be done - and that is write up a short paper trying to explain why i think that Zurek's work makes the idea that information theory is the fundamental ontology of the universe approach the status of 'proven, so long as QED remains experimentally valid' 16:17:04 you only said that so you could watch people trying to parse it, didn't you? 16:17:29 ais523: if that was the case, i would have been more careful with the grammar :( 16:17:41 since trying to parse it myself reading it now, i stumble a bit 16:19:34 it didn't help that I expanded "QED" the wrong way at a first reading 16:20:27 ais523: ouch, thats definitely an invalid typecast when i parse it that way 16:20:45 it almost godel statement's my head. 16:20:47 -!- pikhq has quit ("Lost terminal"). 16:20:53 I been playing with a 4 instruction Forth. >R R> R@ and - 16:21:00 impomatic: oklopol commented on that 16:21:01 and so did I :P 16:21:09 :-) 16:21:12 mycroftiv: "I'll gödel statement your sexual organs, if you know what I mean." 16:21:20 (first person to use that IRL gets a cookie. a Gödel cookie.) 16:21:56 hey, someone just prodded a page on Esolang, and we don't even have a prod template 16:22:00 ehird: didn't see your comment 16:22:03 impomatic: my comment was the first one, the nitpick :P 16:22:16 ais523: oh, right, I was going to ask you to delete two pages 16:22:16 ehird: hmm, couldnt you just embed a good old fashioned paradox in them? if you can prove a false stament, you can prove any statement, so i could then prove 'i have sex with you' to anyone i wish via the broken logical system 16:22:25 ehird: I've probably deleted one already 16:22:40 but http://esolangs.org/wiki/MonkeyCode is rather mystifying, it reminds me of a schrodilan which has already gone off 16:22:40 ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/More, because it isn't even a language that the author of the page invented, isn't interesting, is a stupid, and is worth zilch 16:22:46 Thanks anonymous ;-) I left the comment, but fixed the typo 16:23:29 ehird: I do think the idea of using #!/bin/tail is a mildly clever one (which I also came up with) 16:23:33 ais523: The second is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Compute because it's semantically meaningless, the interpreter isn't, could only be created by someone with the intellect of a 2 year old and is in just about every which way pointless, but then we have precedent for keeping those sorts of pages. 16:23:35 but I was planning to use it in esoteric Perl 16:23:42 Also, it's so mildly clever that EVERYONE has figured it out. 16:23:45 Besides, not a language. 16:23:50 ehird: yes, I think we should leave it in the jokes list 16:23:56 More or Compute? 16:23:59 as it's a common and fundamental type of joke that we don't actually have yet 16:24:01 and Computer 16:24:04 *Compute 16:24:06 More is less clear 16:24:08 I'm trying to implement enough to prove that >R R> R@ and - are Turing complete. 16:24:10 we have that, actually, ais523 16:24:18 which one? 16:24:24 sec 16:24:28 ais523: http://esolangs.org/wiki/QWERTY_Keyboard_Dot_Language 16:24:50 ehird: that doesn't have the "No IO" feature that makes it implementable 16:24:53 which is, I suspect, the real joke 16:24:58 s/implementable/"implementable"/ 16:24:58 ais523: Compute isn't implementable, either 16:25:07 it isn't computing if you don't actually compute it 16:25:11 well, ofc 16:25:20 anyway, it's a bad joke, but not so bad that it's worthy of deletion 16:25:29 and I agree, we do have precedent for keeping that sort of thing 16:25:36 ehird: actually a few quantum computing algorithms do their best to cheat on that, but i guess i wont argue the point 16:25:54 but is it agreed that http://esolangs.org/wiki/More is an awful waste of space? 16:26:11 ehird: I think it you could write a decent article about the subject, but that isn't it 16:26:24 maybe as a section in a longer article about ways to abuse non-esolang programs 16:26:52 it isn't wasting space, incidentally; deleted pages take up more space than non-deleted pages 16:26:56 well, sure 16:26:58 i mean semantic space 16:27:00 subjective space 16:27:01 browsing space 16:27:08 it isn't in any cats, so it isn't wasting space that way either 16:27:10 -!- Azstal has joined. 16:27:11 cognitive space 16:27:15 disk space is a useless concept, anyway 16:27:18 ehird: if you are worried about the informational ethics of deleting pointless pages i advise you to apply the 'in 500 billion years nobody care and this irks my aesthetics, good bye' 16:27:19 we can store anything these days for peanuts 16:27:31 mycroftiv: Sorry, no; I'm a packrat. :) 16:28:02 anyway, can anyone deduce a language spec from this: http://nocluestudios.com/MonkeyCode 16:28:06 Also, *I'd* quite like to care in roughly that time, if by sheer luck we get brain scanning before I become all stupid n' shit. 16:28:16 hmm... let's try web archive 16:28:45 i'm sure i've seen monkey code before 16:29:24 http://web.archive.org/web/20050311210617/http://www.nocluestudios.com/ <--- I preferred eso-std.org's placeholder 16:29:54 I still say :> was the narrator, not a spaceship 16:29:55 in fact, all the pages in the web archive for nocluestudios have placeholders worded pretty similarly 16:30:04 it hasn't archived any actual content 16:30:14 prolly it's always been like that 16:30:24 so, did this language ever exist? 16:30:47 Yes 16:30:56 There's a tunes.org log entry about it 16:31:00 Apparently it has no branching. 16:31:08 and the interp only ran on windows and was closed-source 16:31:23 -!- ehird has set topic: Old dudes who know Brainfuck | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 16:31:25 so, worse than deadfish? 16:31:35 not that bad, probably 16:31:47 still, deadfish caught on massively, somehow 16:32:12 10:55:56 --- join: DawnLight (n=DawnLigh@82.166.248.171) joined #esoteric 16:32:13 10:56:09 are you guys crazy? 16:32:42 what date? 16:32:50 and really, how can we respond to that? 16:33:00 20071029 16:33:12 ehird: what date is the tunes.org log entry? 16:33:16 we should link to it on the monkeycode page 16:33:23 google the url of the site 16:33:25 to make it actually have some content at least 16:33:47 Your search - http://www.nocluestudios.com/MonkeyCode - did not match any documents. 16:33:54 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 16:34:19 ah, it works without the www 16:34:36 12:59:14 It's 1 PM, so I should get some sleep. 16:34:40 if the creator of monkeycode knew how many neurons of the great minds of our time were pursuing his work, im sure hed be shocked 16:35:32 mycroftiv 16:35:33 we're not that clever/ 16:35:37 s/\\$/./ 16:35:37 :P 16:36:37 I'm not sure I'd be as good as programmer at all if I didn't have a computer when I was 3 16:36:41 anyway, someone prodded for notability reasons, we don't do that on esolang 16:36:47 mostly environment 16:37:12 you say that now, but wait until one of your clever little esoteric language loops actually happens to compile itself upon reading to neural level executable and you become the first human/algorithm hybrid consciousness 16:37:24 a true literal 'brainfuck' 16:37:38 but i'm planning on that! 16:37:49 What does prod mean? 16:38:20 the english word? 16:38:28 proposed deletion 16:38:36 oh wiki templating 16:38:43 it's like a deletion vote without the voting 16:38:49 * mycroftiv is always in global context 16:38:50 i.e., "Hey, this should be deleted." 16:39:02 mycroftiv: you need to contextualise! 16:39:06 Thanks 16:39:09 on Wikipedia, it means it can be deleted with 1 support and without objection within 7 days 16:39:17 so it is a vote, sort of 16:39:24 heh 16:39:24 just one that has to be unanimous, and where people don't actually bother to vote 16:39:28 15:14:53 penguin benchmark avocado 16:39:28 15:15:13 ? 16:39:28 15:15:29 immibis coil fortress modulo sailing 16:39:29 15:15:49 ? 16:39:29 15:16:00 ? 16:39:29 15:16:18 what are you talking about 16:39:31 15:16:38 deftly turtle english markup 16:42:32 I suppose I ought to get some programming done 17:10:58 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:22:52 hi oerjan 17:22:58 hi ais523 17:23:17 . http://io9.com/5327313/meet-two-new-quantum-particles-spinons-and-holons <-- fascinating 17:23:26 also bullshit 17:23:30 they're not really particles 17:23:41 just like, ways to describe fluctuations between particles or sth 17:23:41 is this like phonons? 17:23:43 physicist on reddit said 17:23:43 yeah 17:23:45 like phonons 17:23:50 Plenty of things are not real particles 17:23:52 also there's a good thing in the io9 comments, layman explanation 17:23:57 you can probably find the comments on reddit 17:23:58 They are quasi-particles 17:24:11 They're still the same mathematically 17:24:12 http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/96j3t/electron_split_into_2_new_quantum_particles/c0bljcd 17:24:17 ↑ angry scientist is angry 17:25:29 he should join the Union of Concerned Scientists 17:25:37 Anger Chapter 17:25:38 http://www.ucsusa.org/ 17:43:39 iwc :D 17:46:50 I wickdee. 18:01:22 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 18:02:40 Esola Next Generation 18:09:13 "Esola was a secret convent of gnostic Armenian hermits founded in Anatolia in the 9th century. Most of the monks were wiped out in 1917 in an event which the Turkish government denies to this day. A few of the monks were able to flee to America, where they founded EsolaNG." 18:09:52 wat 18:10:10 ehird: are you not aware of our proud tradition? 18:10:16 no. 18:10:37 oh oh 18:10:39 esolang 18:10:40 how amusing 18:10:48 lol it's like, i put esola in my google field 18:10:49 and it was 18:10:52 esola blah blah 18:10:54 esola blah blah 18:10:55 esolang 18:11:01 and i was like, ok, that must be EsolaNG 18:11:04 well i guess it _is_ secret. at least when there are turks nearby. 18:11:04 so i typed esolang 18:11:06 and saw "esolang wiki" 18:11:07 and i thought 18:11:12 well right the wikipedia article 18:11:14 googled esolang 18:11:16 "DOH" 18:11:27 great success! 18:12:11 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 19:08:33 [[I’m sorry, I think char strings are a really bad solution, but the XML thing is just as bad. I use my own lib to make everystring a number, every word a number. Makes programs that do the same things with 100 times less code, thousands times faster, and I have measured it, this is not a theoretical statement like yours.]] 19:08:37 w… what o_O 19:09:37 Huh… CUPS is made by Apple. 19:09:42 I assume coppro doesn't use it :-P 19:18:52 "The top of the cube with ample room for ventilation and a slot below for DVDs or CD-ROMs. Look ma! No fans!" // yeah, right :P 19:24:05 ehird: who said that, and why 19:24:13 which 19:24:21 the quote just after oerjan left 19:24:30 well, immediately after, there was quite a timelag 19:24:37 also, aren't all strings numbers already? 19:24:50 yeah i really don't know man 19:24:53 it's a fucked up quote :P 19:26:53 (the quote after that was from a review of the G4 Cube; evidently theirs had not yet overheated :P) 19:29:51 -!- Mony has joined. 19:30:19 -!- Mony has changed nick to Guest15416. 19:33:12 -!- Guest15416 has changed nick to Moony. 19:38:19 -!- Moony has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:47:46 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:22:16 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 20:34:12 [ehird:~/Documents/LimeChat Transcripts] % cat */* | grep '^..:.. ehird' | awk '{for (i = 3; i < NF; i++) print $i }' | sort | uniq -ic | sort -n | e 20:34:24 *sort -rn 20:34:56 the a to is I it you of and that in AnMaster: 20:34:58 ↑ the top words 20:35:18 Things like "for", "not", "it's", "be", "has", "on", "with", "as" and "do" come below "AnMaster:". 20:35:25 That is hilarious. 20:35:43 *sort -f 20:35:50 to avoid dupliciciciates 20:36:53 [ehird:~/Documents/LimeChat Transcripts] % cat */* | grep '^..:.. ehird' | awk '{for (i = 3; i < NF; i++) print $i }' | LC_ALL=C sort -f | uniq -ic | sort -rn | tr '[:upper:]' '[:lower:]' 20:36:56 complete solution 20:36:56 er 20:37:00 add | e at the end :P 20:38:10 Many hapax legomenons. 20:38:16 *legomena 20:38:25 And dis legomena. 20:38:28 Long tail sort of thing. 20:51:17 ehird, what exactly are you measuring there? 20:51:28 Just read the line; it's fairly obvious. 20:51:35 frequency of word in phrases directed to you? I'm not faimilar with the log format 20:51:42 HH:MM person: text 20:51:48 hm right 20:52:39 guess: frequency of words in what you said yourself? 20:52:44 not sure what the awk bit is there for 20:54:06 oh wait, must be to cut away timestamp and ehird? 20:54:11 but why start at 3 then 20:54:13 huh 20:54:13 Yes, although "ehird" is still the top word. 20:54:18 AnMaster: $1 = HH:MM 20:54:21 $2 = person: 20:54:22 yes 20:54:24 $3 = first word 20:54:29 oh right duh 20:54:31 1-based 20:54:33 forgot that 20:54:53 btw I found a new game. Sadly it doesn't run very well on the laptop. Due to the intel graphics 20:54:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:55:29 it's "vegastrike", an open source space game. seems quite fun so far, still learning how stuff in it works though... 20:55:41 bbiab 20:56:17 AnMaster: have you installed the open source intel drivers? 20:56:24 It should handle 3D better than your desktop, at least. 21:26:13 -!- ehird has quit. 21:31:29 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:33:16 AnMaster: have you installed the open source intel drivers? <-- yes it uses the intel drivers. I get hardware acceleration even. (checked with glxgears), It even handles the game quite well when there aren't a lot of other ships on the screen. However when there are: my desktop handles it far better 21:33:53 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:33:54 the desktop however takes ages to load the game. And swaps out other programs while doing so. 21:38:54 -!- Pthing has quit ("Leaving"). 21:59:43 -!- ehird has joined. 22:00:12 ehird: 22:00:16 AnMaster: have you installed the open source intel drivers? <-- yes it uses the intel drivers. I get hardware acceleration even. (checked with glxgears), It even handles the game quite well when there aren't a lot of other ships on the screen. However when there are: my desktop handles it far better 22:00:31 AnMaster: Shoulda chosen the ATI graphics. 22:00:33 ehird, a geforce 7600 isn't quite as bad as you think 22:01:18 AnMaster: it's the drivers 22:01:22 not the gp 22:01:23 gpu 22:01:26 ehird, maybe. still the game vegastrike seems quite graphics intensive with shaders and what not, and I won't need that advanced graphics 22:01:28 iirc the intel drivers are slow 22:01:30 on linux 22:01:34 i mean, really slow 22:01:40 ehird, any better drivers then for linux? 22:01:49 nah; they're working on it 22:01:52 ah right 22:02:22 btw, I found this program by idle browsing in ubuntu's add/remove programs thingy in the game category 22:02:45 yes, that's a nice way to find neat programs 22:03:00 in the "not maintained by canonical" section 22:03:30 ehird, I have a list of other games to try out. Found a few "sounds good by really quite bad" and some "better than it sounds" ones 22:03:38 in the latter category: "kiki the nanobot" 22:03:45 interesting puzzle game 22:04:00 AnMaster: btw select all programs, not just non-canonical 22:04:07 otherwise you're just excluding stuff for no reason :P 22:04:10 ehird, well yeah that is what I did 22:04:12 or rather: 22:04:14 right. 22:04:24 "open source non-canon(ical)" ;P 22:04:39 the best game is xjump 22:04:47 well 22:04:53 best action-sorta game 22:04:55 ehird, tried it before, and well, I just suck at it 22:05:03 it's sort of the distilled essence of the fast-paced game 22:05:06 AnMaster: me too 22:05:18 turns out it's the fluff additions that make games easy :P 22:05:27 anyway, their vegastrike package is a bit buggy. I'm not sure in what way, but background music only works when you docked to a space station, otherwise it spews python tracebacks in stdout 22:05:38 that's prolly not the packaging 22:05:48 ehird, well, it works correctly on gentoo 22:05:54 using the upstream binary build 22:06:00 drivers, infrastructure etc 22:06:36 tbh xjump would be much easier if the whole world wasn't made of butter 22:06:50 since 1) gentoo doesn't have a package for it 2) the binary package is 497 MB, most is data but it seems more of a pain to build it anyway 22:09:13 oh and vegastrike might seem kind of dead when looking at their website (last commit in May) but it also seems very stable and complete, just found one minor bug/misfeature so far: they seem to use a custom font in the game, and when it is rendered at small size (only a few places, but then very long bits of text) it is very hard to read. 22:09:15 -!- M0ny has joined. 22:09:32 as in, the first vertical line in M goes missing. or very faint 22:09:56 I *suspect* misuse of anti-aliasing. 22:10:21 may isn't really dead 22:10:41 oh and just now: white text on slightly off white bg = bad idea 22:10:54 but that seems to be due to rendering text on a surface reflecting the sun 22:10:56 by loki1950 22:10:56 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:43 pm 22:11:00 that name is in rad 22:11:01 red 22:11:05 if I turn the ship around it is close to black instead 22:11:05 in the feature requests forum 22:11:07 = admin 22:11:13 ehird, mhm? kay 22:11:55 where is that column btw? under bug tracker? 22:12:24 * AnMaster stares at main page 22:13:21 what? 22:13:24 forums 22:13:27 oh right 22:13:48 -!- ehird has quit. 22:14:06 -!- ehird has joined. 22:14:31 anyway, if you like this type of games you might want to give it a try. No idea if you a) like them b) have a computer able to handle lots of shaders and special effects (though you can use the separate program vssetup to turn some of that off, yes that is right, settings are in a separate program) 22:14:49 what kind of game is it? 22:14:50 oh another thing, it is stretched on wide screen (unless you run in windowed mode) 22:15:01 also, I have a mildly crappy gfx card from 2006 22:15:03 came with mac 22:15:06 lowest end one 22:15:08 some ati thingy 22:15:32 i can run games from like 2002 at full res with everything turned on at high fps, so 22:15:39 unless it's as intensive as commercial games, prolly fine 22:15:45 AnMaster: can't you set black bars 22:15:46 ehird, well... space simulator/game. You can notice they gave a half hearted try to simulate realistic physics then gave up and added a "SPEC-drive" so the game wouldn't take so long 22:15:47 s/$/?/ 22:15:59 AnMaster: strategy? 22:16:06 or what. 22:16:19 ehird, you pilot a ship, so not freeciv style of stratergy 22:16:28 action? 22:16:28 there is combat too, haven't yet figured out how it works 22:16:36 ehird, yes, but also peaceful trading if you want 22:17:40 and there is a mission computer, haven't worked that out yet either, only done simple "by cargo at planet a, go to astroid b with mining facilities and sell it, buy other cargo, go back" stuff yet 22:18:27 need to earn money to be able to buy a ship able to survive in combat. I strayed into an area with pirates first. Had to restore from savegame :) 22:19:19 ehird, btw. you can use keyboard/mouse to control. In fact it even works quite well. Joystick is nice for when you are trying to fly into the docking port at a space station though. :) 22:19:36 i hate joysticks 22:19:42 why? 22:20:03 what is there to hate about joysticks :/ 22:20:06 Hilarious internet answer: Too phallic. Real answer: Movement isn't free-form enough, buttons are awkward. 22:20:20 ehird, what sort of joystick have you used then? 22:20:27 quite a few 22:20:28 buttons are well placed on this one 22:20:34 nothing "high-end" or anything 22:20:53 well, most, and there are enough of the well placed ones that you never need the non-well-placed ones 22:21:02 and yes high-end 22:21:15 no point spending money if i don't expect to like it 22:21:47 ehird, and this one even doesn't need to be recalibrated very often. As in: maybe once / year or so 22:22:03 anything that needs calibration sucks 22:22:18 ehird, all joysticks do. 22:22:27 therefore, all joysticks suck. 22:22:57 oh and there is no noisy potentiometers in it. It uses the hall effect to sense the position of the joystick instead. Which is really cool 22:24:13 * ehird configures LiteSwitch X to single-application mode 22:24:35 (think: one app = one virtual desktop, pretty much) 22:25:04 ehird, anyway: mouse works very well until you need to not just control pitch/yaw, but also roll. you can do it by keyboard but if you want to control speed at same time you really have a hard time compared to throttle/joystick combo 22:25:41 what is "liteswitch X" for? 22:25:41 I'd like a joystick that's basically a trackball with little dimples to grip 22:25:48 AnMaster: a better cmd-tab window switcher 22:25:57 well 22:25:58 app switcher 22:26:10 ah ok 22:26:17 interesting idea that trackball. it could handle the 22:26:23 the single-application mode just means that whenever an application focuses, it hides all others 22:26:33 *the yaw too 22:26:40 yes, it could 22:26:49 you could also make it able to be pushed down quite a bit 22:27:02 also, you could make the dimples be buttons 22:27:02 hm? 22:27:04 AnMaster: as in 22:27:09 -()- 22:27:10 is the ball 22:27:11 then 22:27:13 - - 22:27:13 () 22:27:20 except less so 22:27:24 i.e., the ball can be depressed 22:27:27 (lol@that wording) 22:27:41 ehird, might be hard to reach dimple-buttons when pressed down? unless I misunderstood you 22:27:47 you'd keep your hand on it 22:27:50 and it wouldn't go all the way 22:28:04 you'd push with your palm 22:28:39 hm 22:29:12 why not build one? 22:29:52 I know people who built their own pedals for flight sim. though joysticks are probably a lot harder. 22:30:21 ehird, if you push it with your palm, won't that push all the buttons too? 22:31:34 back 22:31:41 AnMaster: no, they're dimples 22:31:55 you'd have to get your finger n 22:31:56 in 22:32:07 ah right. thought they were more shallow 22:32:15 more like those on, say, a golf ball 22:32:48 so you mean something between them and the whole on a bowling ball? 22:32:53 holes* 22:33:00 (crazy typo) 22:33:16 can't really describe it 22:33:53 of course it could only have one function 22:33:58 and you couldn't hold and spin 22:34:03 hm 22:34:43 I tend to use 2-3 buttons at the same time as I'm moving the joystick, and also the throttle and some button on it 22:34:44 well 22:34:47 not "tend to" 22:34:51 but "sometimes I need it" 22:35:20 as in, try landing in a flight sim with a harrier. that is/was the brittish jet that can land vertically 22:35:52 then you need to handle pitch/yaw/roll/throttle/thrust_vector at the same time :) 22:37:48 i'd just buy a real plane. 22:39:50 ehird, would be much more expensive and, 1) getting a flight cert 2) fuel 3) the actual plane, and since iirc it is still in service... And I don't think there is a large "black" market for them. 22:40:12 but more fun! 22:40:52 oh and the real aircraft *does* have a joystick. And it needs not only calibration but lots of other sorts of expensive maintenance! 22:41:36 sweet and app that makes your cursor wrap around xD 22:41:59 hm nice idea 22:42:07 a bit hard to get used to I imagine... 22:42:20 ehird: Why yes, buying a real plane would be more fun. 22:42:25 But, you see, that *costs money*. 22:42:28 ;) 22:42:31 easier to buy your mom 22:42:32 pikhq, I mentioned that 22:43:02 Shush you. Just because you were born of a prostitute doesn't mean everyone's mother is that way. 22:43:31 * ehird would like to make clicking the desktop -not- focus the finder… 22:43:36 * ehird looks in liteswitch x prefs 22:43:52 ehird: Liteswitch X? 22:43:54 Do tell. 22:44:06 Never mind. Lops. 22:44:07 pikhq: It's an OS X application that makes switching applications Not Suck. 22:44:10 Lops? 22:44:22 "erstwhile" <-- just wondering, would any of you use this word instead of "once"? 22:44:22 Logs. 22:44:25 Thinks. 22:44:31 AnMaster: Yes. 22:44:34 In a heartbeat. 22:44:36 AnMaster: No. 22:44:43 ehird, right. I had to define: it 22:44:44 Because I'm not _that_ pretentious 22:44:46 s/$/./ 22:45:06 ERSTWHILE, IT DID HAPPENSTANCE UPON ME THAT THE CURRENT METHOD FOR CALCULATING NUMERICAL VALUES IS PERHAPS NOT IDEAL 22:45:14 :D 22:45:32 ehird: Oh, so you've talked to me IRL? :P 22:45:46 pikhq: No, but if that's what you sound like I'll avoid it :P 22:45:49 wait. "happenstance"? 22:45:55 Happenstance. 22:46:04 ehird: I exaggerate. 22:46:06 google says "coincidence" 22:46:07 hm 22:46:15 Shush :P 22:46:16 IRL, I sound like me on IRC. 22:46:25 Only, more vocalising. 22:46:32 " once, IT DID coincidence UPON ME THAT THE CURRENT METHOD FOR CALCULATING NUMERICAL VALUES IS PERHAPS NOT IDEAL" <-- Is it supposed to make sense? 22:46:33 xD 22:46:43 AnMaster: just s/happenstance/occur/ 22:46:46 ah right 22:46:52 cmd-return/shift is a nice keycombo for switching apps 22:46:56 not like that evil cmd-tab 22:47:00 and the rsi it doth dole out 22:47:23 I prefer C-t C-t. 22:47:27 ehird, where is the cmd key then exactly? Isn't it the one closest to the space key? 22:47:33 as in: ctrl, alt, cmd, space 22:47:34 control, option, cmd 22:47:36 yeah 22:47:45 cmd and control are longer than option 22:47:59 how can cmt-tab be *that* bad then. Ctrl-tab I would have understood better 22:48:10 AnMaster: http://www.circa1978.com/v1/images/mackeyboards_compared.jpg the bottom one 22:48:14 also, my hands are small 22:48:18 so i have my thumb on cmd 22:48:20 and my… 22:48:22 next to pinky 22:48:23 finger on tab 22:48:30 twisted 22:48:35 then i have to tab multiple times 22:48:42 compare to using the bottom of my pinky to hold tab 22:48:46 and tapping return/shift 22:48:49 (shift goes backwards) 22:48:58 pinky on tab :D 22:49:03 oh wait 22:49:05 *next to* 22:49:06 err 22:49:07 to hold cmd 22:49:07 right 22:49:17 i could use the other cmd key 22:49:23 but shift would still be a pain 22:49:53 bottom of the pinky? Huh. *suggests raising the chair a bit* 22:50:11 err, what 22:50:29 AnMaster: if I raised my chair much more, the top of my legs would hit the keyboard stand 22:50:51 ehird, bottom of pinky? Don't you mean the base of the finger, close to where it is attached to the hand, with that? 22:50:55 or something else 22:50:58 yes 22:51:13 AnMaster: the top of my pinky (i.e. key-hitter) then rests on s 22:51:21 well, that makes my next finger press down space if I try it on the key next to space here (which is alt) 22:51:22 look at that pic of the kb and you get the idea 22:51:34 hm 22:51:37 AnMaster: not here 22:51:45 I don't use a home-row orientation 22:52:03 how do you place your hands then? 22:52:06 variably. 22:52:29 I'd like to see the pinky manoeuvre (sp??) 22:52:43 (looks more like French to me. bah) 22:52:49 manoeuvre 22:53:02 well, aspell thinks so 22:53:07 AnMaster: or Maneuver 22:53:10 *maneuver 22:53:17 which is more common 22:53:33 AnMaster: also, 22:53:33 manoeuvre - Wiktionary 22:53:34 9 Jun 2009 ... From the French noun manoeuvre and verb manoeuvrer, from Old French manovrer, from Vulgar Latin *manuoperare, from Latin manu (“'by hand'”) ... 22:53:35 this aspell dict sucks. it thinks maneuver is invalid 22:53:38 from french, heh 22:53:40 AnMaster: is it british english? 22:53:45 ehird, en_GB yes 22:53:51 I think maneuver is American in origin 22:53:55 ah 22:54:00 my dictionary here rejects it too 22:54:30 I refuse to use a dict that things "colorize" is an existing word. 22:54:48 it is 22:54:53 No. colourise is :P 22:55:01 and don't reply with something perscriptivist— like that— 22:55:01 in British English 22:55:04 *prescriptivist 22:55:14 AnMaster: why are you talking in modern english? 22:55:19 somebody just made up those words, too 22:55:26 ehird, well right. 22:55:42 * AnMaster declares jashdflkaeiljahalqjvc to be a word 22:55:55 sure, if you convince a lot of people to 22:55:56 means: "lets make up a word" 23:09:27 Dear Google: I searched "disable dock leopard", not "disable 3d dock leopard". 23:09:32 Fuuuuuuuuuck you 23:09:34 s/$/./ 23:14:01 "Home Folder, other folders - I will never understand these as I am the only user on my computer. I want everything as close to the main drives as possible." 23:14:01 Sometimes, I think instating a law that you only have free speech if you know what the fuck you're talking about would be a good thing. 23:14:53 ehird: O_O 23:14:56 WhoTF wrote that? 23:15:08 An idiot whining about idiotic things on some random mac forum I found while googling. 23:15:12 ehird: LART. 23:15:16 Another gem: 23:15:19 [[I guess I get so upset with the braindead design of the function of most of these programs because they have so much potential. Its like you have somebody that does some excellent groundwork, then some illogical, prancing, faggot in drag wants to make things pretty and ruins all the planning of the previous designer who was laying out the groundwork so meticulously. And then the upper management OK's the pretty boy ignoring the logic shown beforehand.]] 23:16:17 Good description of Windows. Except that there's no excellent groundwork. 23:23:37 Todo list: 23:23:39 - Obliterate dock 23:23:44 - Configure Overflow to my liking 23:35:11 Todo list: 23:35:18 - Obliterate ehird 23:35:31 - (Continue to) Configure #esoteric to my liking 23:35:31 - Configure ehird to my liking 23:35:33 Darn 23:35:34 :P 23:36:02 I would need to invent an "aging and gaying machine" 23:36:10 ("gay" is a transitive verb now?) 23:37:53 GregorR-L: I cannot figure out how to fit [23:36] GregorR-L: I would need to invent an "aging and gaying machine" into any sort of context whatsoever. 23:38:00 8-D 23:38:15 But if you're fucking cauliflower, why not use a tractor? 23:38:24 Exactly! 23:48:41 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:50:11 ehird 23:50:15 the machine is gaying 23:50:18 its becoming more and more gay 23:50:34 no, I think the machine makes things older and gayer 23:50:46 now how on earth that relates to anything GregorR-L… I have no clue 23:51:14 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:51:19 it's a homogeneous machine? 23:51:24 oerjan: X-D 23:51:33 That's homogenius! 23:52:06 ohh 23:52:21 [23:35] ehird: - Configure ehird to my liking 23:52:21 [23:36] GregorR-L: I would need to invent an "aging and gaying machine" 23:52:28 thinking + science = COMPREHENSION 23:52:30 try it today 23:52:47 :P 23:53:03 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:53:11 I am not entirely sure why you also want it to be a gaying machine. 23:53:32 Uhh… I'm gonna assume that if, to make someone to your liking, you need to make them more gay, then that makes you gay. 23:53:32 I have peculiar notions of what the definition of "liking" is? :P 23:53:47 But that's just me, what with my science and all. 23:53:52 ehird: you know, even _i_ am close to accepting that logic 23:53:54 SCIENCE↗ 23:53:59 It makes you go upwards and rightwards. 23:54:01 TO THE FUTURE 23:54:20 I wouldn't apply the gaying machine to women, I'll have a separate straighting machine if necessary for that. 23:54:28 xD 23:55:01 i guess choosing between the machines would be a bifurcation 23:55:11 X-D 23:55:15 no that's if he's a furry 23:55:54 * GregorR-L googles "bi furry vocation" 23:56:02 * GregorR-L does not actually google that :P 23:56:46 Better a bi furry vacation! 23:56:54 8-O 23:56:55 http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bi-furry 23:57:18 One of my colleagues here is a furry >_> ... it's ... awkward? 23:57:34 i am starting to dislike google's tendency to give hits that don't actually exist in the page 23:57:49 (vocation is nowhere to be seen) 23:58:00 Lamesauce! 23:58:14 I think if you quote it it won't do that. 23:58:16 Or + it maybe? 23:58:37 * oerjan quotes vocation 23:59:03 It just occurred to me that I'm on a vocation vacation ... I think? 23:59:40 you're not supposed to think on vacation 23:59:52 Then I guess it's not a vacation at all :P 2009-08-02: 00:00:09 i'm pretty sure i know like a furry or two 00:00:10 indeed 00:02:05 THIS DOTH PISS ME OFF 00:02:13 I just want to get rid of that damn dock >_< 00:02:39 don't be a dick, duck the dock 00:02:40 DOTH IT NOW? 00:02:51 Don't be a dick, dig the dock! :P 00:03:06 ... A GRAVE 00:03:55 * ehird resorts to google searches like "i hate the dock" and "obliterate dock" 00:05:00 `google get rid of mac os x dock 00:05:20 HackEgo is gone?? D-8 00:05:36 yes 00:05:39 has been for N time 00:05:50 GregorR-L: it's mostly just "HURR REMOVE THE REFLECTIVE DOCK" 00:05:54 whereas i want the whole thing gone 00:06:13 -!- HackEgo has joined. 00:06:40 `translateto hu HUR HUR HUR 00:06:48 `translatefromto en hu HUR HUR HUR 00:06:50 HOW HOW HOW 00:06:51 Hur Hur Hur 00:06:53 xD 00:06:55 HOW HOW HOW 00:07:06 `translatefromto hu en HOW HOW HOW 00:07:09 HOW HOW HOW 00:08:04 i don't think W is used much in hungarian 00:08:26 `translatefromto hu en HOGY HOGY HOGY 00:08:28 HOW TO THAT 00:08:41 versatile word, HOGY 00:09:10 `translatefromto hu en HOGY HOGY HOGY HOGY 00:09:12 THAT THAT THAT THAT 00:09:13 `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy, hogy, hogy hogy hogy hogy; hogy! Hogy, hogy. Hogy, hogy hogy. 00:09:15 How to to to to to that, that! How to. How, how. 00:09:38 ??? 00:09:43 xD 00:10:10 Hungarian. Wow. 00:11:22 So if you want to ask someone "how do I do that?" brokenly, you can say "Hogy hogy hogy?". 00:11:40 the "that" is in the conjunction sense, iirc. 00:12:58 not a pronoun 00:13:02 darn 00:13:21 oerjan: "How do I do hard things?" → "Hogy hogy hogy [which is hard]". 00:13:23 i didn't know about the "to" sense 00:13:31 s/"\.$/?"./ 00:13:50 `translatefromto en hu How do I do hard things? 00:13:52 How do I do kemény dolgokat? 00:13:55 I like how "Hogy, hogy hogy" becomes "How, how". 00:14:00 good grief 00:14:02 I'MA JUST IGNORE THIS ONE RIGHT HEERE 00:14:21 `translatefromto en hu that which is hard 00:14:24 , ami kemény 00:14:26 `translatefromto en hu How can I do hard things? 00:14:28 How can I do kemény dolgokat? 00:14:29 `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemény 00:14:31 That is how kemĂŠny 00:14:36 `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny 00:14:38 How hard is that 00:14:40 xD 00:15:18 `addquote `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny How hard is that 00:15:26 57| `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny How hard is that 00:15:59 laughing while drink is in your mouth is hard 00:16:01 true story 00:16:14 well doesn't have to be drinkable 00:16:16 could be any liquid 00:16:29 So, Hungarian is hard to translate. Got it. 00:17:13 `translatefromto en hu How is babby formed? 00:17:15 Hogyan babby alakult? 00:17:30 `translateto hu baby 00:17:32 baba 00:17:40 Hogyan babba alakult? 00:18:50 `translate fromto en hu How hard is that 00:18:52 fromto en hu How hard is that 00:18:52 `translatefromto en hu How hard is that 00:18:55 Mennyire nehéz az, hogy 00:18:57 xD 00:19:02 HOGY HOGY HOGY 00:19:11 Azstal! 00:19:16 What does "hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny" mean? 00:19:22 "az" actually means that, btw 00:19:27 *"that" 00:19:50 `translatefromto en hu Hogy az hogy 00:19:52 Hogy az hogy 00:19:58 `translatefromto hu en Hogy az hogy 00:20:00 How is that 00:20:10 well ami kemeny you already translated. ami is a relative pronoun btw. 00:20:25 `translatefromto hu en Hogy ami hogy kemeny hogy hogy 00:20:27 How hard is that to that 00:20:28 well, "hogyhogy" is an expression of surprise, unrelated to hogy 00:20:37 Azstal: Hahaha 00:20:37 X-D 00:20:37 `translatefromto hu en Hogy az 00:20:39 How the 00:20:42 that just makes it even better 00:20:44 oops 00:21:08 Azstal: so is there anything hogy DOESN'T mean in hungarian? :D 00:21:44 az also is the definite article in front of vowels 00:22:50 ehird: Supercalifragalisticexpialidocious. 00:23:04 :P 00:23:05 *i 00:24:43 beh, someone fix this 00:25:01 -!- M0ny has quit. 00:26:21 `translatefromto hu en Hogy-hogy, hogy érted, hogy "Hogyan"? 00:26:23 How to ĂŠrted "how"? 00:27:07 Non-unicode must DIE. 00:28:09 -!- pikhq has set topic: Society for the Extermination of Non-Unicode Character Sets — http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:28:45 pikhq: UTF- 00:28:46 * 00:28:58 -!- ehird has set topic: society for solving the REAL fucking problem — http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:29:13 (the REAL fucking problem is usually wanting to do something practical) 00:29:19 ehird: Thou art a dumbass. 00:29:22 -!- pikhq has set topic: Society for the Extermination of Non-Unicode Character Sets — http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:29:33 ehird: now _that_ is a topic i simply refuse to believe for this channel 00:29:38 -!- ehird has set topic: society for solving the REAL fucking problem — http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:29:49 oerjan: as I said, (the REAL fucking problem is usually wanting to do something practical) 00:30:50 -!- pikhq has set topic: Society for the Extermination of Unicde -- http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:30:59 -!- pikhq has set topic: Society for the Extermination of Unicode -- http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:31:15 Yeþ. 00:31:30 pikhq: Bad lisp you've got there. 00:31:40 it's not lexically scoped 00:32:11 GregorR-L: Yeþ, I know. 00:33:00 I've alſo got a bad caſe of þe ſ-eþ. 00:54:12 Boo. 01:13:26 -!- coppro has joined. 01:15:02 coppro: you need to uninstall CUPS, quick! 01:15:20 ehird: haha 01:15:20 So, I feel like learning Parsec. Let's see about writing, oh, an IRC parser. 01:15:27 coppro: Apple make it!! 01:15:32 pikhq: barely anything to lawn 01:15:34 ... 01:15:35 learn 01:15:49 ehird: Eh, yeah. 01:16:05 Probably won't take me long to write this parser. 01:16:51 Heck, might not be hard to make it a full client or some such. 01:17:10 Using gtk2hs! 01:24:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:31:56 Okay, so I think I adore Parsec. 01:35:58 you know what's fun? 01:36:09 compiling a big project with libstdc++'s pedantic mode 01:36:32 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:36:44 hmm... does there exist a langage where operator precedence is determined by whitespace? 01:36:57 yes 01:37:00 merd, for instance 01:37:12 -!- ehird has quit. 01:50:33 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:51:07 There is even at least one pseudo-real language, Fortress. 02:14:18 -!- immibis has joined. 02:56:19 Has anyone had the following error compiling the Linux kernel, and does anyone know how to fix it? "/(path)/linux-2.6.30.4/usr/Makefile:50: *** target pattern contains no '%'. Stop." 02:56:54 That's bizarre ... make --version? 03:04:23 GNU Make 3.81 03:07:58 The line is "$(deps_initramfs):" (which seems rather pointless) 03:08:02 Well, that answers nothing :) 03:08:25 commenting out that line causes the same error on "$(deps_initramfs): klibcdirs" (which also seems pointless as it could be combined with the previous line) 03:09:33 is there a way i can have make output the value of deps_initramfs? 03:10:00 which also does not seem to be set anywhere (???) 03:10:41 the path does not contain : (since googling told me that would cause the problem) 03:12:22 * GregorR-L reappears 03:12:26 Not a clue, can't help 03:13:26 immibis: echo? 03:13:37 pooppy: In a makefile? 03:14:53 (A makefile which won't load because it has above mentioned weird error) 03:16:11 make -d 03:20:39 GregorR-L: why not? 03:21:06 it will execute arbitrary commands; echo seems like a perfect candidate 03:21:13 Because ... the makefile won't load? So it wouldn't actually run the echo line, no matter where you put it? 03:50:02 -!- Gracenotes has changed nick to Soushokuon. 03:55:29 -!- augur has joined. 04:29:31 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 04:44:31 -!- kar8nga has joined. 04:55:40 -!- Halph has joined. 04:55:52 -!- coppro has quit (Nick collision from services.). 04:56:00 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 04:57:21 interesting... fair dealing, while less braod in Canada, is considered a right, not a defense 04:58:24 In the US, the precedent is that fair use is the only reason copyright law is constitutional. 04:59:06 yes, but in the US it's considered a defense, not a right, so you cannot, for instance, sue for restriction of fair use 04:59:23 Ah. 04:59:32 whereas apparently in Canada it is actually a right, so in theory you could sue for restriction of it 04:59:34 I wish you could. 04:59:46 though I'd have to read the SCC judgment 05:00:00 Unfortunately, the only way to do that would be massive copyright reform -- and while we're at it, we may as well fix all the rest. 05:00:14 Which would make that much less needed. 05:03:15 ah, it's pretty explicit "The fair dealing exception, like other exceptions in the Copyright Act, is a user’s right." 05:04:26 though it doesn't mean you could necessarily sue over it 05:17:06 as a practical matter, courts tend to very strongly support the status quo interpretation of laws and the interests of property and rights holders against legal theories (even sensible ones) that would tend to disrupt them. 05:20:02 yes, but the text I quoted is directly from an SCC ruling 05:21:30 so, how do you make use of it? 05:21:48 is the idea that you could attack DRM with it? 05:22:19 yes, in theory 05:22:25 if it was stupidly restrictive 05:22:38 find a lawyer who could start a class action suit on behalf of consumers with the tort being that their property right of fair dealing was taken? 05:24:57 I'm not saying it's likely 05:25:21 im honestly interested, the 'use the system against itself' style reform often has a better chance of success (copyleft in general has worked well for isntance) 05:26:04 are you Canadian? 05:26:36 no, citizen of the world, fighting for information freedom everywhere (*gives the EFF salute*) 05:26:41 heh 05:27:01 you know what's funny that I just realized? 05:27:25 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:27:29 ? 05:27:50 suppose you brought this against a record company. In Canada, it's not illegal yet to circumvent protection measures. So they could probably defend themselves by bringing that up. But they're probably too arrogant to do so. 05:28:32 although they don't have good standing with the Canadian courts 05:29:51 -!- kar8nga has joined. 05:37:13 GregorR: You remember your odd experiments with Javascript 3D rendering? 05:37:18 http://deanm.github.com/pre3d/monster.html You just got one-upped. 05:39:03 -!- Soushokuon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:41:26 -!- Soushokuon has joined. 05:59:33 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:35:02 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:55:31 im trying to find my copy of the classic 'information theory and its engineering applications' book, but the entropy of my house is too high for me to uncover the signal 06:57:29 alas, it is well known that decreasing entropy in a system requires applying work to it 06:58:11 well stated. 06:59:33 i have an interesting related theorem i believe 07:00:01 again, without work to replenish, the information content of bookshelves decreases, because ONLY THE BOOKS YOU ACTUALLY USE will ever be 'lost' from them 07:00:22 all of the books that you never take off the shelf just stay there, but every book you actually take off the shelf has a finite positive chance of loss 07:01:01 just as long as you don't get book worms 07:01:44 yes, as always its hard to nail down those boundary conditions precisely 07:02:11 completely loss due to fire does indeed have a way of inverting the situation, where only the books checked OUT from the libarary might be preserved 07:02:28 if everyone who checked out books from the library of alexandria had stolen them, would we be better off>? 07:03:00 * mycroftiv returns to bookshelf and bookpile rummaging 07:04:03 a very hypatical question 07:07:13 true, although given the 'doesnt remove the original' aspect of digital data, as a thought experiment it gives the pro-piracy argument some moral force in terms of 'we are acting to preserve data for future generations, in the large scale, despite our self-interested motives of the moment' 07:11:54 sometime last year i spent an entire day retracing my steps of the previous day to find this EXACT book, which i had left sitting on the grass where i had been reading it in a park 07:12:05 something about this particularly treasured volume makes it try to escape from me! 07:24:11 -!- augur has joined. 07:45:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:08:12 -!- Soushokuon has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:08:50 -!- Soushokuon has joined. 08:10:43 -!- Pthing has joined. 08:22:29 -!- Soushokuon has changed nick to Notes_d-agrement. 08:31:41 -!- Dewio has joined. 08:44:34 -!- Dewi has quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)). 08:57:35 -!- immibis has quit ("I cna ytpe 300 wrods pre mniuet!!!"). 09:27:14 -!- Notes_d-agrement has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:34:28 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:34:06 -!- Apoyaturas has joined. 10:41:12 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 10:56:50 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:07:34 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:13:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:26:00 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 12:32:55 -!- ehird has joined. 12:34:32 [[Actually, all bullshit aside, I do have an idea for an application that will (edit legally) put money in your bank account every time you press a button in Firefox. 12:34:33 However, I don't have the skills to write such an application (which would be nothing more than an adaptation of existing open source software), so I'm keeping my mouth shut until I save 12:34:33 up a grand or so to rent a coder. Or find a genuine interested party that would be willing to sign an agreement, write the code and split the profits with me - a 30% me /60% you /10% overhead split would be generous, I believe.]] 12:34:33 I so hope this idiot tries to sell whatever it is, that'd just be hilarious 12:39:51 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 12:44:29 "We don't provide the 'easy to program for' console that [developers] want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?" 12:44:30 — Sony CEO on the PS3 13:30:00 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:06:27 "The choice of power cord one makes to transmit AC over the final feet to a component has the potential to be the most influential sonic link in a music system's power chain." 14:06:27 — lol, audiophiles 14:08:20 they pretty much admit it's magic 14:08:23 even to themselves 14:11:22 yep 14:11:51 anyone who cares about that stuff should just read http://hydrogenaudio.org/ (where they use crazy things like logic and the scientific method) and be done with it 14:11:57 i used to, to a degree 14:11:59 don't really any more 14:15:28 -!- M0ny has joined. 14:25:41 -!- ais523 has joined. 14:32:03 hi 14:33:02 hi 14:41:41 this is a rather vacuous conversation, isn't it? 14:41:51 8 minutes of nothing but whitespace... 14:43:49 14:55:57 14:56:34 hello ais523 14:56:37 hi 15:27:50 In[6]:= Sum[i, {i, 0, n}] 15:27:50 Out[6]= 1/2 n (1 + n) 15:27:50 In[7]:= Sum[i, {i, 1, n}] 15:27:50 Out[7]= 1/2 n (1 + n) 15:27:52 Dear Mathematica: 15:27:54 What? 15:27:56 Love, 15:27:58 — oh, wait. 15:28:01 God, I'm stupid today. 15:28:07 I need to sleep better. 15:28:11 I've been the dumb recently. 15:28:17 i see. 15:28:31 puzzlet: lucky you aren't blind 15:29:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:41:24 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:00:06 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:37:02 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:10:05 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:18:28 -!- coppro has joined. 17:28:54 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:52:58 -!- Judofyr has joined. 17:58:26 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:59:20 -!- Asztal has joined. 18:17:28 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:18:01 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 18:18:11 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:19:04 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:23:33 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:44:55 19:15:27 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:17:14 wtf is with the quiet 19:17:20 everyone going to church or something :D 19:17:26 I'm busy playing pokemon, zzo38-style 19:17:28 although not on IRC 19:18:20 ais523: but still text based? :P 19:18:29 more or less 19:18:38 there's a couple of small graphics in the corner, to make it look more graphical 19:18:41 but the text log is the useful bit 19:18:50 ais523: what is this, exactly? 19:18:58 Shoddy Battle, it's a pokemon simulator 19:19:10 ic 19:19:46 ais523: i'd just use an emulator and that thingy that uses a networked computer as a connected second gameboy :-P 19:20:25 simulators are better for practice, because you don't have to catch the pokemon first; you can request any pokemon that it's theoretically possible to get, no matter how unlikely 19:21:26 ais523: emulators come with hex-editing thingamajic 19:21:26 s 19:21:28 s/\ns/s/ 19:21:30 I think that's how NetBattle (presumably the 'pocket monster IRC' that zzo38 used) works 19:21:31 admittedly, more of a fuss 19:21:34 but more realistic 19:21:35 ehird: also more illegal 19:21:41 ais523: erm, no 19:21:48 editing some bits in memor yisn't illegal 19:21:52 no, but the emulator is 19:21:57 ais523: No, it's not. 19:22:01 Emulation is not illegal. 19:22:01 because it implies you have an illegal copy of pokemon 19:22:03 emulators are legal; the game images may not be 19:22:06 No it does not, ais523. 19:22:10 it's the game image I was talking about 19:22:25 (a) you could make a device to read it from a cartridge (b) You *already paid for it/ 19:22:30 s/\/$/*/ 19:22:36 ais523: also, zzo made that himself, like everything 19:22:40 depends on copyright law in your country 19:22:57 ehird: ah, ok 19:23:08 if it turns out zzo38 invented NetBattle, I'll really laugh my head out 19:23:14 although, more likely it was a different one 19:24:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:28:31 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:28:56 -!- oerjan has quit ("Rebus"). 19:45:27 -!- jix has joined. 20:03:43 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 20:13:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:26:00 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 20:50:45 -!- olsner has joined. 20:59:10 -!- Pthing has joined. 21:15:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:24:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:32:25 -!- augur has joined. 21:39:45 Hi augur. 21:39:50 A naugur. 21:45:02 draft-n wifi can transfer an uncompressed 1920x1200 screenshot over tcp/ip in 0.70s 21:45:06 sweet 21:45:25 add a bit of compression and use a single-purpose protocol and you're pretty close to having a wireless screen 21:45:58 60hz needs 0.01s 21:46:10 compression, you could easily get like 0.3s 21:46:23 single purpose, well the maximum theoretical throughput is like >400mbit 21:46:28 so if we say 400mbit 21:46:52 that's 0.08s 21:47:43 = 12.5 fps 21:47:54 and i'm sure there's faster protocols than wireless.n 21:48:09 s/wireless\.n/draft-n wifi/ 22:00:31 -!- M0ny has quit. 22:05:54 Well, that DisplayLink thing does 1920x1200 over USB 2; and WirelessUSB/UWB say they can provide the equivalent 480 Mbit/s for 3 meters. 22:08:05 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:19:38 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 22:19:46 -!- Apoyaturas has changed nick to Gracenotes. 22:32:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 22:34:51 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:44:04 In 2008, DisplayLink announced the first Wireless USB products powered by their technology. To date they have announced products or partnerships with Wireless USB technology vendors Alereon[8], Realtek[9], and WiQuest[10]. 22:44:06 lol 22:44:29 In May 2009, DisplayLink launched its second semiconductor product family, the DL-125, DL-165, and DL-195 USB 2.0 graphics devices. This DL-1x5 family brings improved performance, an increase in maximum resolution to 2048x1152, and the integration of a DVI transmitter and video DAC. The first products to ship with the new DL-1x5 chips were the Samsung Lapfit LD190G and LD220G monitors.[12] 22:45:00 * oerjan doesn't understand enough to know why that is a lol 22:45:04 fizzie: but can it handle 60fps/sec always? 22:45:15 oerjan: it's exactly what fizzie's just said, except already thought of 22:45:31 An upcoming 1.1 specification will increase speed to 1 Gbit/s and working frequencies up to 6 GHz. 22:45:31 —[[Wireless USB]] 22:46:17 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:52:46 They don't much talk about framerates, but since some form of compression is involved, it might have a bit unstable worst-case behaviour. 22:53:39 I mean, their marketing literature is the typical "DisplayLink DL2+ adaptive compression scheme ensures a highly interactive, ultra low latency user experience that is nearly indistinguishable from a traditional monitor connection", but the terms "ultra low" and "nearly" aren't defined anywhere. 22:55:34 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 22:55:49 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:55:59 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 22:57:13 Single-link DVI (which is enough for 1920x1200 at 60 Hz) data-carrying bandwidth is 3.96 Gbit/s, apparently, so that's what it takes to push an unmodified DVI signal through. (165 MHz clock, one pixel/clock, 24 bits per pixel.) 22:57:24 mm 22:57:34 that's a lot of gbits. 22:57:55 USB 3 will do 4.8 Gbit/s, they say. 22:58:02 fizzie: but ehh how much is that just blargh metadata 22:58:06 *of that is 22:58:38 i sleep now that i slashed it up! so everybody could get down wit this slang teenagers use now. nice talk. then again, reality is usually more clumsy than what? 22:59:18 fizzie: shut up, fungot 22:59:18 ehird: very little requires lap hackery.) in a function name and arguments as opposed to fnord 22:59:24 fungot: i said shut up 22:59:25 ehird: " i went and implemented them.)) be considered a pattern comprising a subset of l(lbas)), not y. 22:59:36 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.5.1/20090715094852]"). 22:59:50 Lap-hackery sounds a bit indecent. Sort of a mixture of a lap-dance and hacking. (Okay, really gone now.) 23:00:35 fizzie: oh, "i sleep now" 23:00:36 was like 23:00:38 actually sleeping 23:00:44 fizzie: you should make it a /quit script 23:01:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:02:44 -!- pikhq has joined. 23:09:38 god.. sometimes reading stackoverflow, it seems the stupid is seeping into my head. make it stop ;_; 23:12:15 i believe there is a button on your computer that will make it stop. it may have symbol something like a circle interrupted with a crossing bar at the top. 23:13:23 hm, I should try that sometime. but I think I've already solved it by clicking on an orange square with a white x through it. 23:13:44 that may work too 23:13:53 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:14:14 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Client Quit). 23:17:06 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:17:18 Gracenotes: why would you ever read stackoverflow? 23:18:00 boredom. getting consensus of general developer community. lolling. 23:18:21 but nowadays it's depressing me 23:18:58 -!- jix has joined. 23:19:30 Gracenotes: stack overflow is the retarded cousin of the "general developer community" 23:19:33 so for the second, you basically find herding cats too unchallenging? 23:20:38 ehird: it is my unfounded opinion that it is actually a pretty accurate cross-section 23:20:45 your opinion sucks 23:21:08 no u 23:23:57 ehird: so anyway, you're saying most developers are smarter than those on SO? 23:25:00 no, I'm just saying that SO sucks :P 23:25:52 IS THIS SO! 23:27:18 (no. THIS. IS. *is stabbed*) 23:27:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:29:45 i have just deduced the consensus of all life forms. it appears to be "breed furiously by cell division" 23:31:13 there were some giant forms suggesting something called "sex", but they were such a tiny minority they could just be ignored. 23:31:38 Yeah well fuck bacterias 23:31:53 We can nuke everything away if we want to 23:31:53 So shut up 23:32:37 i am doubtful of that. 23:32:52 there are apparently life forms deep in the earth's crust 23:36:35 we could probably nuke them too 23:40:00 okay... Ubuntu update time.. this will be a painful 2 days... *prepares to take it like a man* 23:40:52 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 23:41:10 YEAH LET'S DO THIS 23:41:17 oerjan: Not to mention the bottom of the ocean. 23:41:24 And in orbit. 23:41:32 Gracenotes: Two days? 23:41:46 This is a new variant of Ubuntu of which I was not previously aware. 23:41:57 Specifically, where updating to the next release takes two days, not an hour. 23:42:11 I haven't really ever read Stackoverflow. 23:42:19 ehird: probably. I'm doing two OS version updates, plus the hundreds of libraries I've needed to update for some time, and all over wireless. 23:42:26 so, basically Gracenotes 23:42:30 I shall read it, and soon after become homicidal. 23:42:31 you disabled the automatic update daemon 23:42:43 and neglected to upgrade for a major release 23:42:48 question, Gracenotes 23:42:52 why are you stupid? 23:42:58 stfu. I stuck with 8.04 because it was convenient, and stable. 23:43:08 It sure is looking convenient now. 2 days, cool cool. 23:43:09 no motivation to update. 23:43:18 Similarly, I'm using Windows 3.11. 23:43:25 After all, it has an IRC client. 23:43:29 but now there is an app-need-threshold 23:43:37 You are apparently used to Windows. Which updates once every decade. 23:43:51 ehird: lots of people use 8.04. I AM PROUD TO BE ONE OF THEM 23:44:00 I AM PROUD TO HAVER UPPERCASE LETTERS 23:44:05 "Avoid recursion". 23:44:13 MURDER, I WRITE. 23:44:27 pikhq: Recursion -is- low level, but that's probably not what they meant. 23:44:30 Gracenotes: Anyway, doesn't excuse ignoring the "HEY, YOU, UPDATE THESE PACKAGES" icon. 23:44:38 That takes 5 minutes, tops. Click, click, ignore. 23:44:41 ehird: eh? I update packages regularly. 23:44:47 "plus the hundreds of libraries I've needed to update for some time" 23:44:56 yes, because they are not available with this OS 23:45:09 ehird: For a recursive-decent parser in a C-oid language. 23:45:11 I will never understand people who don't upgrade regularly. 23:45:26 I do fucking update my libraries regularly, but some of the latest versions are not available for 8.04 23:45:30 Gracenotes, why are you dumb? 23:45:34 pikhq: maybe if you're parsing a 2 gig file consisting ((((…()…)))) 23:45:41 Gracenotes: I meant the OS, too. 23:45:48 well, I didn't. 23:45:51 Embrace the package manager. 23:45:57 It's really silly to disregard new OS updates because, on the face of it, you don't need anything in them. 23:46:06 what are you all talking about. I use the update manager regularly. 23:46:09 THIS IS SLANDER 23:46:14 Gracenotes: … 23:46:16 Then what are you doing? 23:46:20 Upgrading your faeries? 23:46:22 No, the OS. 23:46:50 aptitude update;aptitude safe-upgrade -- is that hard to get? 23:47:00 pikhq: Nononono 23:47:04 Use the upgrade manager in Ubuntu. 23:47:15 pikhq: again, I effectively do that 23:47:22 Gracenotes: Stop breaking things. 23:47:24 That's bad. 23:47:26 ehird: For upgrading major versions, sure. 23:47:28 You shouldn't do bad things. 23:47:30 pikhq: That's what he's doing. 23:47:34 the aptitude update does not include the OS. 23:47:54 True. "aptitude update" (a) is using aptitude, which is silly and (b) updates the list of packages. 23:47:58 It doesn't upgrade anything. 23:48:10 (I'm a bastard because I care, I swear.) 23:48:15 you are aware that all Ubuntu versions use different repositories? Hence package upgrading is implied in OS upgrade? 23:48:23 for some (not all) packages? 23:48:42 What you're saying is completely true and utterly irrelevant to anything I'm saying. 23:49:03 Gracenotes: Yes, but that's beside the point. UPGRADE AT MAJOR VERSIONS. 23:49:19 We're such angry defenders of the One True Way of computing. 23:49:19 yeah yeah, that's what I'm doing 23:49:21 We need a team name. 23:49:28 Like… the GOOD COMPUTERIZORS. 23:49:28 When it updates. 23:49:30 Hmm. No. 23:49:36 Not a year after. 23:49:58 it was new when it came out. it's called complacency, and IT IS OKAY! *makes peace sign* 23:50:00 (which in Linux-land is about on par with trying to upgrade a system from DOS 6.0 to Vista) 23:50:16 pikhq: A year? 23:50:20 It was released in April. 23:50:23 ehird: I exaggerate. 23:50:25 Your years are… weird :P 23:50:34 pikhq: It's not even been a year since the release he's running :P 23:50:50 ehird: Wait, Ubuntu does majors more than twice a year? 23:50:52 But srsly guys, update. There's a reason software is changed. 23:50:56 pikhq: Six-month cycle. 23:51:08 And he said he's two majors behind... 23:51:13 But he also said 8.10. 23:51:20 pikhq: he may be updating to the Karmic beta 23:51:28 Ah. 23:51:33 Which is rather silly. 23:51:33 8.04 was released April 2008, which I'm using 23:51:38 Gracenotes: oh god. 23:51:39 And didn't he say 8.04, not 8.10? 23:51:40 Not even 8.10? 23:51:49 Dayum Gracenotes, you bitch dumb. 23:52:04 (bitch dumb, n. Ghettorifically dumb.) 23:52:08 8.10 was released October 2008, which I was busy studying and doing homework and generally being too busy to update 23:52:17 Gracenotes: You are upgrading less often than Debian does stable releases. 23:52:18 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:52:24 You do realise upgrading to Ubuntu takes one click and it does it in the background, right? 23:52:28 Then you just reboot in an hour? 23:52:36 and it breaks my sound :( 23:52:43 That's some epic studying/homework/business that prevents you doing it. 23:52:46 honestly I have somewhat of a sound-breaking phobia 23:52:56 If it breaks your sound u did it rong. 23:53:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:53:05 once I held off a kernel upgrade for a month because I was afraid of sound-breaking 23:53:13 that's how bitch dumb I am! and proud of it! 23:53:17 You need a therapist. :P 23:53:21 and it did break my sound, too. 23:53:46 ALSA is a cruel bitch. 23:53:53 So don't use it. 23:53:56 Use OSSv4! 23:54:08 ehird: He does have a point, though: Ubuntu has done fucking weird things with their sound in the past year or so. 23:54:12 You know, I hate sound systems. They're so analogue. 23:54:18 Why can't we have digital speakers? ;_; 23:54:28 no, ALSA... I must come back to it, like an abused housewife 23:54:29 They switched to PulseAudio... And they used a broken build of it. 23:54:38 pikhq: oh ubuntu have a ton of fuckups 23:54:41 i know that 23:55:13 I'm not even going to try Karmic 23:55:21 maybe in two months I'll get back to you 23:55:47 Gracenotes: I suggest you try Arch, so that it can sneak all its upgrades in as innocuous standard package upgrade fare. 23:55:58 It's For Your Own Good(TM). 23:57:00 stfu arch advocate 23:57:24 Gracenotes: I'm a computherapist. 23:57:29 aha. 23:57:36 I prescribe the solution that will ease your ailments. 23:57:38 Nothing more. 23:57:49 Gracenotes, you have no right to talk. A year in Linux of no updates is like a decade in Windows-land. 23:57:54 my software sources preferences indicate that I only upgrade to long term support releases 23:57:58 Shit changes fast. 23:58:05 * Gracenotes changes that 23:58:06 (Sometimes it's placebo; I once rebranded Ubuntu as Gobuntu — without modification — to appease a freetard who longed for integration and hardware support.) 23:58:12 ((Oh wait, that actually happened. :P)) 23:58:59 "New distribution release '8.10' is available." See?? Ubuntu says it's new! 23:59:34 ÞOU ſHALT UPDATE 23:59:49 oh pikhq, you're making me so thorny 2009-08-03: 00:00:19 yay... 32 KB/s update... 00:00:50 ooh, it's really picking up now, 56 KB/s 00:00:50 -!- ehird has set topic: I like big eths and I cannot lie, you other esolangers can't deny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 00:01:02 that's so fast, isn't it? ^_^ 00:01:13 Gracenotes: 700KB/s in your face bitch. 00:01:20 Gracenotes: 56 kilobytes per second is tolerable. 00:01:33 I miss my campus Internet connection, though. 00:01:39 10 megabits/sec. :D 00:01:40 now it's 64... now 67... now 1... 00:01:44 11, I mean. damn this is variable. 00:01:59 131072KB/s in your face bitch. 00:02:37 pikhq: Seriously? You can get 24mbit/s for, like, regular internet prices in the UK, as long as you don't live somewhere odd like me. 00:02:46 I do miss my campus connection too, it peaked at 800 KB/s, but better than this 00:03:00 And we even have fibre-optic 25/50mbit in some places. 00:03:04 ehird: Erm. Actually, I think that was s/bits/bytes/ 00:03:05 And Scandinavia has 100mbit up the wazoo. 00:03:21 Korea has 1Gbit, but I don't think servers are fast enough :P 00:03:24 And yes, seriously. You can hardly get 10mbit/s here. 00:03:33 meow 00:03:37 Some internet guy's grandma got 4Gbit as a promotional thingy to encourage companies to speed up the interwebs. 00:03:39 in sweden 00:03:52 pikhq: so you got ~80mbit 00:03:55 ~= 100mbit 00:03:55 Here in the US, that would be 50Mbit. 00:04:13 dude, 1586 software packages are going to be upgraded to 8.10 00:04:17 told you so 00:04:23 Gracenotes: That's… not a lot. 00:04:34 I need to download.. 1.7 GB. gawd :/ 00:04:39 pikhq: I conjecture that US technology sucks so much because you have a shitty economy. 00:04:44 Gracenotes: Peanuts. 00:04:56 on wireless it ain't 00:05:09 spoiled. 00:05:27 Gracenotes: n-draft, bitch. 00:05:32 100mbit/sec TCP/IP wireless. 00:05:42 Most wireless chips support it nowadays and routers are affordable. 00:05:46 *draft-n 00:05:50 not for me 00:06:00 Well, you suck. 00:06:04 plus, I think my ISP has it out for me ;_; 00:06:44 ALL TECHNOLOGY SUCKS 00:06:45 EVERYTHING SUCKS 00:07:10 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:07:11 FINALLY SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS ME 00:07:18 CUDDLE TEIM 00:07:22 * ehird CUDDLES 00:07:28 * Gracenotes CUDDLES 00:07:39 I WILL NOW SOLVE THE EVERYTHING PROBLEM BY ENSLAVING EVERYONE 00:07:45 AND FORCING THEM TO MAKE THINGS THAT DO NOT SUCK 00:08:10 let me see.. which video had I downloaded.. ah. Team America time 00:34:32 it's nice to only have one app at once 00:35:23 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:53:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:57:04 -!- Judofyr has joined. 00:57:11 [[Wrong again. It's an ancient Zionist symbol for "jew-gold".]] 01:01:23 I know of no context where that is *not* a blatantly antisemetic comment. 01:01:43 pikhq: When it's part of a reddit joke-thread. 01:01:56 http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/comments/96vkn/inwe_trust_start_the_movement/c0bmz17 01:02:40 Ah. 01:03:22 It's also possible to oppose zionism but not jews, but obviously that comment wouldn't exactly fit that if it were serious. 01:04:51 -!- p4yn0 has joined. 01:04:55 hi all 01:05:02 Hello. 01:05:18 Who're you, where did you come from, and where am I? 01:05:40 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:05:46 who was the originator of the quote "wherever you go, there you are" 01:06:07 http://www.figmentfly.com/bb/popculture4.html 01:06:16 According to Danial M, "The quotation is much more ancient ... from around 1440 AD. You can find the following quote at http://www.christianitytoday.com/le/2006/002/14.73.html : "So, the cross is always ready and waits for you everywhere. You cannot escape it no matter where you run, for wherever you go you are burdened with yourself. Wherever you go, there you are." —Thomas a Kempis, Imitation of Christ, ca. A.D. 1440 01:06:29 jesus fucking christ. 01:06:42 or kempis imitating christ. 01:06:48 -!- p4yn0 has left (?). 01:07:01 Well, that guy wouldn't have lasted long anyway. 01:07:09 um, sorry for being offtopic and alienating him, or whatever happened 01:07:17 Sorry for being offtopic? 01:07:18 LOL 01:09:26 i certainly struck gold with that random question, seems like further scholarship is definitely needed 01:11:28 i wish i had the ability to be interested in utterly boring things :( 01:12:01 im interested in everything, sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective 01:12:23 `addquote [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective 01:12:25 58| [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective 01:12:51 :D 01:13:24 mycroftiv: can i take a guess at the secret to such interest? 01:13:28 the guess is "lots and lots of drugs" 01:13:49 (failing that, "insanity") 01:14:08 ehird: I have similar problems from time to time. 01:14:16 Problems?! 01:14:20 It sounds wonderful! 01:14:29 thats probably correct, its been a long time since 'the day' but i think i probably blew out (or woke up) some unusual synaptic structures duing the years 1990-97 or so 01:14:33 Well, for certain definitions of "problem". 01:14:44 ehird, 's called "autism". 01:15:06 It's called autism if you define autism to be not being able to get out of bed because the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective. 01:15:15 This would happen to be a definition without much precedent. 01:15:19 (much = any) 01:15:31 Just an aspect thereof. 01:15:38 Crap definition for it, though. 01:15:42 Fun fact: Autism makes you shit flowers, rainbows and a keen interest in stamps. 01:15:53 Also, you can fly. 01:15:57 Makes you shit a keen interest in stamps? 01:16:01 Impressive. 01:16:15 ehird: as for the 'you can fly' - google some disney movie called 'the boy who could fly' - PROVEN FACT! 01:16:24 pikhq: Yes. 01:16:46 mycroftiv: Hmm. That makes me want a smopes.com. 01:16:52 It's like snopes, but has bullshit instead. 01:18:00 downloaded 475 of 1866 packages 01:18:11 ..and the big ones haven't even come yet 01:18:12 installing kde5 from the future? 01:18:23 mycroftiv: No, he's upgrading from Ubuntu 8.04. 01:18:32 then another one after this 01:18:34 Because apparently homework stopped him taking an hour to upgrade to 8.10 or 9.04. 01:18:46 srsly. my sound. 01:18:57 Your mental issues. :P 01:19:06 …and that's saying something coming from me. 01:19:15 ugg, why try to inplace upgrade rather than do a clean install and transfer? isnt inplace upgrading both gonna take longer and (50%+ chance) bork your setup? 01:19:32 Er, no. 01:19:37 It generally works fine on Ubuntu. 01:19:45 i say this is a long time debian + ooboontoo user 01:19:47 well, it probably will bork my setup. 01:19:47 It's just that most in-place upgrades suck. 01:19:48 *as a 01:19:52 mycroftiv: wfm /shrug 01:20:18 clean install would probably take much longer with what I have 01:20:31 ehird: I still have trouble believing that most OSes can't do in-place upgrades. 01:20:46 A decent component system handles it trivially. 01:20:58 Not because I disbelieve that such OSes exist, but that I disbelieve that we're still in the freaking 80s. :P 01:21:02 Sometimes I think it should just deactivate all software that can't handle the new versions. 01:21:06 That'd speed up compatibility. 01:21:16 (You could, of course, manually activate the old version for certain programs.) 01:21:40 i guess everyone works out their own workflows, i always have about 4 bootable partitions per box, and when a new distro release comes out, i generally choose the oldest/least used partition, pull any data i want out of it, and install on top of that, leaving whatever my most used system pre-install untouched and just using/copying its data as needed 01:21:55 mycroftiv: I have yet to have a distro upgrade break for me. 01:22:01 ... I've been using Linux since 2002. 01:22:10 pikhq: i commend your administrative skills :) 01:22:18 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:22:35 And no, I don't switch distros often. 01:22:42 I've been using Gentoo since like 2004 or 2005. 01:22:56 Gentoo solves the X problem by making you do it all manually, forall X. :P 01:23:07 Along with Debian. 01:23:11 … 01:23:15 For some definitions of Debian. 01:23:17 i dont think so, gentoo has a ton of automation, its really nice, dont you think? 01:23:27 I hate Gentoo :P 01:23:32 stuff like eselect and so forth, i find gentoo easy to admin really 01:23:33 But I mostly hate source-based distros in general. 01:23:42 And I'm no fan of Gentoo users. 01:23:45 ehird: No, no. Just emerge -avuDN world && revdep-rebuild ;# et viola. 01:24:01 pikhq: Shaddup. 01:24:25 this is, of course, mah first distribution 01:24:42 My first distro was Slackware. 01:24:53 I suspect that's skewed most of my Linux usage. 01:25:02 towards the good 01:26:15 After that, I toyed with Red Hat (eeeeeewwwww), Debian (stable was t3h old then, not just old), and eventually settled into Gentoo on my desktop and Debian on anything I don't want to fuck with. 01:27:48 I like computers to do things for me. 01:28:13 Gentoo does things for me. 01:29:11 sort of. 01:29:26 Whaddya mean, sort of? 01:29:40 the userland you get from any gnu/linux distro is always going to be equivalent or whatever the user wants, i havent found any significant differences other than the details of the init scripts and package managers between distros 01:30:00 mycroftiv: Arch uses BSD init, which is nice. 01:30:06 I do not like SysV init. It is not kind to me. 01:30:18 even if you switch to BSD the userland you tend to build doesnt seem very different to me at least 01:30:19 ehird, Gentoo uses neither. 01:31:00 Unix is unix, so it is, so it sucks, but it's here and everyone who can do better — like, say, us — are sitting around on their asses doing nothing. 01:31:13 ehird: not true, im using and developing and releasing plan9 software 01:31:41 Well, actually, it uses SysV init, but only as a wrapper for /sbin/rc. 01:31:42 Plan 9 isn't even significantly better; it progresses the Unix paradigm, thus running into its limits, but this is not much of an improvement. 01:31:47 (to minimize breakage) 01:31:50 It just shows that, yes, it is a limited paradigm. 01:32:12 ehird: what about the 9p protocol and 9p fs interfaces as something entirely independent from plan9, despite having been developed as part of it? 01:32:41 It's a hierarchical filesystem. I don't like them. They are not kind to me and they are not all that useful, and there are far better things. 01:32:56 (Okay, they're related to hierarchical filesystems; whatever.) 01:33:32 ehird: It's the best we've got mostly because the alternative is a notable lack of paradigm. So, most people enter UNIX, are impressed that there *is* a paradigm, and dispute that it could even be changed for the better... 01:33:48 Combine with UNIX being good enough for most purposes, and you get 40 years of UNIX. 01:33:51 -!- augur has joined. 01:34:02 Yes, well, I rarely consider what other people want when dabbling in such things. 01:34:06 ehird 01:34:07 oi. 01:34:13 Hi. 01:34:28 ehird: hrmph, im not sure what you say really makes sense from a fundamentals perspective - the idea that you can say hierarchical filesystems and the general idea of file i/o as semantics for how you 'control your turing machine' seems a bit broad... 01:34:46 wat? 01:34:48 you say they are 'not all that useful' which doesnt seem to make sense 01:35:09 I just hate files as separate from objects, I hate disk as separate from memory, and I hate tree hierarchy. 01:35:34 Orthogonal persistence — FUCK YEAH. 01:35:54 Chuck in persistence of continuations and we've got some hot lovin' suspendable persistin' action. 01:36:03 ehird: ok, 9p actually i think addresses all of those concerns - it has the idea that 'objects == files' in its paradigm - it absolutely is designed to abstract away from disk vs. memory - and it doesnt impose a tree hierarchy, even 01:36:29 ehird: This is a very Smalltalkish way of doing things. 01:36:33 mycroftiv: 9P is basically RPC, so it's a leaky abstraction. Anyway. No. 01:36:42 9P still has plain text as the quantum. 01:36:52 I hate plain text for anything other than plain text. 01:36:56 what information cant be represented by plain text? none. 01:37:05 mycroftiv: OK, then. Why does C have any types other than char *? 01:37:22 ehird: well, in a way it doesnt! it offers semantic labeling and handling for convenience 01:37:29 It most certainly does, mycroftiv. 01:37:35 but as i surely dont need to explain to you, you get to cast anything to void... 01:37:51 recast as char, work with it that way...send it back, if itll fit...or maybe give you a nice crash... 01:37:58 You will only get internal representations. 01:38:03 That is not applicable to what I am talking about. 01:38:30 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:39:08 i admit you are probably a lot more expert on this than i am, im just a guy who tries to write software to do stuff using the abstractions that make the most sense to me 01:39:29 mycroftiv: As an aside, have you considered learning Haskell? 01:39:39 pikhq: yeah, thats kind of a slow moving ongoing project for me 01:39:44 Expert, mycroftiv? I'm just a deranged 13 year old. :P 01:39:54 But consider me flattered or something. 01:40:02 well, you talk a good game, at least 01:40:10 That's because I'm always right, duh. 01:40:34 Anyway, the best way to come to love rich persisted objects is via orthogonal persistence. 01:40:51 You never lose anything, when coding you never worry about losing anything, and it's truly a living environment of objects 01:40:52 s/$/./ 01:40:55 The idea is simple: 01:40:55 i love rich persisted objects, its exactly why i like plan9 and 9p :) 01:41:03 All of memory is continually persisted to disk. 01:41:10 Memory = cache for disk. 01:41:13 That's IT. 01:41:18 There's no filesystem. No files. 01:41:32 You have your runtime objects, and that's what you keep until you explicitly let go. 01:41:36 imagine theres no files...no filesystem too...you may say that im a dreamer...but im not the only one... 01:41:42 Precisely! 01:41:48 Lennon was a Smalltalker. 01:42:06 ehird: So, Smalltalk. 01:42:16 Yes, Smalltalk, dammit. :P 01:42:17 ehird: my opinion is that what you just described is exactly the plan9 and 9p design, with a merely semantic difference between the word 'object' and the word 'file' 01:42:22 Though I don't think Smalltalk persisted. 01:42:28 Way back then. 01:42:31 mycroftiv: Nononono, it's not. 01:42:37 Make a value in Plan 9's C. 01:42:37 Does these days. 01:42:41 You lose it if you have a crash. 01:42:45 You lose it if your program terminates. 01:42:59 You have to explicitly hook into the persistence mechanism and come up with a representation. 01:43:01 That's not it at all. 01:43:09 With orthogonal persistence, you just Use Objects Like That. 01:43:14 And they stay there. 01:43:24 ehird: aha! ok, we are speaking of different layers - i am absolutely not talking about the plan9 os/kernel layer, but the layer of the 9p fs itself! surely smalltalk objects arent persistent if you smash the hsot machine with a hammer or delete the software? 01:43:47 See, but orthogonal persistence IS OS layer. 01:44:01 It's ubiquitous, that's why it works. 01:44:06 i completely agree taht you need to fully push these principles down to all layers, and that plan9 does not do that 01:44:25 mycroftiv: Yes, and once you do that, you realise that you're persisting the rich objects and not a plain text representation of them. 01:44:41 And you realise that there's a reason we program with those rich semantics, and no reason not to persist like that too. 01:44:45 IMO at least 01:45:06 sorry, as a turing fundamentalist, i dont think there is a difference between 'rich objects' and 'plain text' - unless you have a physical OS that isnt using binary at the transistor level? 01:45:16 * Gracenotes awaits finally being able to install anki 01:45:30 anki fuck yeah 01:45:42 mycroftiv: Your argument reeks of "Brainfuck is just as good as Haskell because they're both turing complete". 01:45:51 Yes… technically. 01:45:57 But in practice, no, that's not how they match up. 01:46:11 no, i think im trying to stake out something much more limited, which is: 01:46:15 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:46:30 It's possible that we're agreeing but you're using awkward terminology. 01:46:31 "you cant critique 9p on the basis of the underlying OS any more than you can critique smalltalk on the basis of the physical hardware it runs on" 01:46:42 By plain text, I mean the kind of thing that you find on unix/plan 9 systems. 01:46:42 -!- coppro has joined. 01:46:49 Flat file, ad-hoc formats, pseudo-human-readable. 01:46:51 AWKwords 01:46:57 I don't mean binary representations of objects, which is what I prefer. 01:47:01 Yes, they're both bits, technically. 01:47:04 But the paradigm is different. 01:47:23 but thats just like 'machine storage'! a rich object is always going to be what you get at the 'content layer' after you WORK WITH whatever your basic raw storage format is! thats what plaintext is, its just like binary at the machine level 01:47:31 i think you are making a layer confusion in your thinking 01:47:36 "after you WORK WITH whatever your basic raw storage format is" 01:47:38 See! 01:47:45 With orthogonal persistence there is no format. 01:47:57 What you clunk to disk is what you use. 01:48:00 so your physical chips liquify and dont use binary? 01:48:20 .........................whut 01:48:34 ehird: There is one thing that makes me vomit about this: the data should be independent of the programs. I am not sure how you would pull that off. 01:48:46 pikhq: Why on earth should it be? 01:48:49 look, you dont have a problem with having your rich objects stored in binary in the physical memory right?" 01:48:52 Objects have methods ;-) 01:48:59 ehird: I kill you. 01:49:06 pikhq: Smalltalk, bitch. 01:49:13 ehird: I kill you. 01:49:19 pikhq: what do you mean independent of the programs? 01:49:22 pikhq: Again? 01:49:27 augur: plz read ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ 01:49:28 ehird: Yes. 01:49:35 so if you are OK with binary storage of objects at the physical layer, and the microcode/firmware or whatever you call it translating your smalltalk into those operations 01:49:37 mycroftiv: I really think you're pulling at straws here 01:49:38 explain what you mean by that. 01:49:56 augur: file "foo.mp3" can be handled by any program I have on my hard drive that is willing to read a file. 01:50:00 why isnt it ok for there to be a layer that works with data as plaintext, as an intermediate stage between binary and the rich objects? 01:50:02 (though not all programs will make sense of it) 01:50:04 oh i see 01:50:10 you mean non-proprietary formats, essentially. 01:50:13 … 01:50:15 what, augur? 01:50:22 ... What? 01:50:30 what what 01:50:49 You fail at reading comprehension. Epicly. 01:50:52 ehird: can you network with these rich objects? if you send them via ethernet framing, does the fact that they become binary/plaintext during transmission across the network destroy them somehow? 01:50:53 uh 01:50:59 "augur: file "foo.mp3" can be handled by any program I have on my hard drive that is willing to read a file." 01:51:00 mycroftiv: That would work, sure… but it's also kind of a silly step and will just use more disk. Also, the fact is that in 9P, you address objects with paths — which is not how you address them in an object system (e.g. "self users at: 3" is not /users/3) 01:51:17 So, Unix and 9P's model is not just "making objects plaintext before bunking them to disk". 01:51:29 (That would work → plaintext intermediatry) 01:51:34 unless you mean "handled by a text editor", i take this to mean "handled by anything that plays music because they all play mp3s" 01:52:02 augur: Handled by anything that handles files in general. 01:52:09 ok. handled in what sense? 01:52:11 ehird: hm, in a very important sense I think 'making objects plaintext for convenience while reading/writing them' is absolutely the essence of unix design 01:52:23 cat foo.mp3 ;# that's handling it. 01:52:26 Not usefully, but it is. 01:52:30 and that in no sense is unix attempting to prevent you from creating higher level systematic abstractions that have nothing to do with plaintext 01:52:33 mycroftiv: That's not a convenience, it's just pointless. 01:52:38 In a decent object system. 01:52:51 Not Unix's shambles of assorted binary blobs operating in low-level languages. 01:52:55 right, ok, but im pretty sure that thats essentially possible regardless. ignoring the fact that certain programs have certain expectations of file contents. 01:53:17 mycroftiv: Anyway, "while reading/writing them" 01:53:22 With orthogonal persistence, you don't see that. 01:53:26 You modify the object, it's modified on disk. 01:53:30 The OS does it, you never notice. 01:53:37 There is no reading or writing, there is just "is". 01:56:20 ObjectivistOs? Is == IS? a == a? 01:56:45 Lawl. 01:57:01 I mean "there is just 'is'" as in the objects are just there, except there implies them being in a place. 01:57:11 So I just said is; they exist. 01:59:35 all im saying is, there is a real and messy world of wires and circuits and binary bits that has to be brought into compliance with the abstractions you create. I dont see how you can escape, at some layer, having to work with things in the semantics that the wires/spec imposes on you. thats all. 02:01:30 the unix plaintext abstaction was created to meet the practical needs of how you build a system where the user can interact with rich objects and the wires and magnetic bits can stay synchronized with that. it is certainly not perfect, and could be much improved - but i think unix plaintext handling exists at the 'dealing with hardware' layer more than the 'telling you what abstractions to use' layer. 02:04:41 I disagree because I see code handling this supposedly low-level "abstraction" all the time. 02:04:43 In applications. 02:04:47 Even Plan 9 ones. 02:04:48 oh i totally agree 02:05:03 I really think you're underestimating the culture of making your own shitty ad-hoc plain text formats and putting them in your own ad-hoc locations. 02:05:09 i never said the work of creating the 'ladder of abstractions' and making systems be consistent was complete! 02:05:31 :P 02:06:01 ehird: i think you are confusing me with a defender of traditional unix...i think you are making the mistake of confusing something that is a progressive step in the evolutionary process with something that is an obstacle 02:06:26 I'm not sure Plan 9 can go further, but we'll see. My other beef with it is that it keeps the outdated notion of an "application"; a 70s-era exposure of kernel structurse. 02:06:27 *structures 02:06:31 Fun talking, anyway. I've got to go sleep now. I know people on IRC generally don't do that. 02:06:35 -!- ehird has quit. 02:06:57 good night 02:07:09 mycroftiv 02:07:14 i think to understand ehird 02:07:20 think of it like this 02:07:30 objects exist in memory during runtime right? 02:07:56 sure - i think i understand his ideas about breaking down the traditional 'hardware based' abstractions, absolutely 02:08:33 ok. the stuff in memory during runtime is whatever "format" a running object has 02:08:34 yes? 02:09:10 hm, not completely sure if you are talking about the abstract type as defined by the language/compiler etc or the machine representation as transistor bits/logic, but sure 02:09:20 whatever is in ram 02:09:23 or cache 02:09:55 at one layer, it is logical strucutre - at another layer, its physical charge 02:10:05 they can be mapped onto each other precisely, of course 02:10:06 in a smalltalk like system, the act of saving a file, or anything actually, amounts to nothing more than copying the memory content to the harddrive. 02:10:14 yup, i know this, absolutely 02:10:19 it doesnt involve encoding it into a special format for "representing" the object 02:10:26 ok, wait, not true 02:10:26 its just a raw binary dump to the harddrive. 02:10:41 you still have a ton of lower level firmware type stuff going on 02:10:51 but thats not part of the objects in question. 02:11:06 and neither is the unix plaintext representation of data part of the 'objects' as dealt with by application software 02:11:13 two different layers of the abstraction 02:11:38 right, except that the plaintext representations of data are /representations of data/ 02:11:56 the low level firmware and os driver control of a hard drive are also representations of data 02:12:01 as opposed to the raw data itself, that would normally exist in memory when the computer is processing it 02:12:12 yes but different data. 02:12:40 a larger set of data, but the 'content data' is still a subset thereof 02:13:18 if you can talk about small talk and 'abstract away' from the os drivers for the hard drive and its firmware - you can talk about unix software and its semantics and extract away from the unix os handling of the data before sending it to the disk 02:14:01 if you can send data over a network without the fact that it was encapsulated via tcp/ip somehow 'contaminating it' at the application layer - you can do the same with an os's representation of data and its software 02:14:31 there is no way you can escape from the particularities of the hard work of handling your hardware and formats - you just build tools that let you work as a programmer and user at layers of abstraction beyond that 02:14:48 if smalltalk exists as smalltalk regardlesss of the hardware platform 02:15:25 then you can certainly create whatever kind of environment you want as a set of abstractions on top of any os that gives you the ability to create a working implementation 02:16:44 so thats why i keep saying i think this is a 'layer confusion' where you are expecting that a lower layer should conform to the semantics and syntax of a higher layer - where you cant actually do that, unless you make your chips out of ideas rather than transistors 02:18:02 its great if you can make your layers as transparent and consistent as possible, and we definitely can evolve much further in that direction 02:19:56 but the fact that we have to store our data fundamentally as electrical charges, and stuff it through networking protocols, and read it from disks using various hardware bus interface specifications - these are annoyances, but they are just the 'accidental material' of creating things, just as the marble is not the sculpture 02:23:25 that being said - i understand that *plastic* was created because marble is hard to work with, and having something easier to shape is valuable - and ehird is talking about increasing the *plasticity* of data and how we work with it 02:23:51 which i 100% agree with and support 02:51:54 -!- Judofyr has quit ("raise Hand, 'wave'"). 04:37:13 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 04:39:23 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 05:25:40 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:47:13 -!- coppro has joined. 05:53:09 -!- vijay_ has joined. 05:55:51 -!- vijay_ has left (?). 06:06:09 my packages be be downloadin' 06:07:01 ..still 07:54:44 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:48:24 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:57:46 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:09:26 -!- immibis has joined. 09:23:27 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:28:16 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:36:02 -!- immibis has quit ("ASCII a stupid question, get a stupid ANSI!"). 09:58:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:01:20 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:02:20 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:25:03 -!- fizziew has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:32:48 Heh, I had completely forgotten about that thing. 11:04:04 my packages be installin' 11:07:01 good luck 11:07:18 Soon your packages be explodin'. 11:08:37 the 2 day forecast was not so unrealistic 11:28:24 -!- HackEgo has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:28:24 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:28:24 -!- evenant has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:28:24 -!- rodgort has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:29:03 -!- HackEgo has joined. 11:29:03 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 11:29:03 -!- evenant has joined. 11:29:03 -!- rodgort has joined. 11:46:29 -!- zzo38 has joined. 11:46:44 Is this a proper beer program?: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/InfChessPro#Examples 11:48:10 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 11:48:12 I also work on a new paper RPG system, Icosahedral RPG, but some things still I didn't figure it out yet, what should be the rules for multiplying a spell by another spell (or itself)? 11:51:56 -!- HackEgo has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:51:56 -!- evenant has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:51:56 -!- rodgort has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:51:56 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 11:52:29 -!- ski__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 11:52:31 -!- ski__ has joined. 11:52:54 -!- HackEgo has joined. 11:52:54 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 11:52:54 -!- evenant has joined. 11:52:54 -!- rodgort has joined. 11:54:42 O, what's this mistake 11:56:36 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:04:46 -!- ehird has joined. 12:15:26 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:28:28 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 12:33:44 -!- Sgeo has joined. 12:34:07 * Sgeo has corpses in his kitchen 12:35:40 (fly corpses) 12:35:51 O! 12:36:19 What doesn't kill you, makes you hard of hearing. 12:37:22 Is this a proper beer program?: http://esoteric.voxelperfect.net/wiki/InfChessPro#Examples 12:37:29 I also work on a new paper RPG system, Icosahedral RPG, but some things still I didn't figure it out yet, what should be the rules for multiplying a spell by another spell (or itself)? 12:38:49 What people would put all the blood in a bowl and then throw all of the cigarettes in the same bowl? 12:46:34 …what? 12:47:30 That was in Akagi manga book. 12:47:34 I had blood on my hands that may or may not have been mine (was probably mine) 12:49:44 (I killed a mosquito by accident. It had just bitten me) 12:50:21 -!- HackEgo has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:50:21 -!- evenant has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:50:21 -!- rodgort has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:50:21 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:50:36 I have heard that only female mosquitoes bite you. 12:52:22 -!- HackEgo has joined. 12:52:22 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 12:52:22 -!- evenant has joined. 12:52:22 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:52:42 -!- Pthing has joined. 12:53:37 Why is all QUIT and JOIN a lot in a past few minutes? 12:54:07 -!- HackEgo has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:54:07 -!- evenant has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:54:07 -!- rodgort has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:54:08 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:55:57 -!- fizzie has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:56:10 -!- HackEgo has joined. 12:56:10 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 12:56:10 -!- evenant has joined. 12:56:10 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:56:11 -!- fizzie has joined. 13:03:32 -!- Asztal has joined. 13:06:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:09:46 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 13:11:24 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:11:26 WHY IS FIREFOX ON 8.10 SO SLOW 13:11:50 * Gracenotes beats his graphics card into pulpy submission 13:13:14 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 13:24:06 WHY IS FIREFOX SO SLOW ON THIS PENTIUM III? 13:26:40 Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous lagging, or to take arms against a sea of graphics cards, and by opposing make them effing work? 13:27:04 * ehird gives Gracenotes $15bux 13:27:08 get a nvidia card 13:31:43 * Sgeo has a nvidia card. It sucks 13:32:42 afaik it's a 8.10 thing 13:35:23 Sgeo: you suck 13:35:56 ehird, do you know of a site like imgur, but for audio? 13:36:05 filebin.ca 13:36:24 ty, as soon as Firefox regains sanity 13:36:43 wikimedia commons. if you freely license it. and prove its encyclopedic worth. 13:36:50 DO IT 13:36:50 * Sgeo doesn't want reddit hitting diagonalfish 13:36:58 Gracenotes, there is no encyclopedic worth 13:37:21 you must thrust encyclopedic worth into it 13:37:55 Sgeo: to think that reddit will hit anything you submit is statistically nonsensical 13:38:13 Sgeo: anyway, filebin will cause a download. 13:38:21 tindeck if you want a player; must be freely licensed. 13:39:38 Somehow, I doubt that people will want to redistribute this 13:40:28 Sgeo: Reddit will absolutely not hit something they have to save and open. 13:40:42 In conclusion, self-defeating prophecy.\ 13:40:45 s/\\$// 13:41:18 I think you mean self-fulfilling. 13:41:35 * Sgeo sounds stupid 13:41:37 >.> 13:42:04 Slereah_: no 13:42:05 self-defeating 13:42:08 * Sgeo reconsiders doing anything with this at this point 13:42:09 http://sgeo.diagonalfish.net/unknownsongs.wav 13:42:54 Is /r/self an appropriate place to ask for information like what songs the unknown songs are? 13:42:57 Things like that? 13:43:03 Uhhh, no. 13:43:25 Wow my ears just cringed listening to that. I didn't know that was possible. 13:45:58 hard crowd today, eh 13:46:20 you bet bitches 13:46:48 most people bet cash 13:47:03 For a sec, ehird sounded a bit like Randall Munroe 13:47:17 "you bet bitches" is totally what xkcd would say. 13:47:19 To wit: 13:47:23 you bet bitches 13:49:05 ehird, how is that sort of thing inappropriate for /r/self ? 13:49:23 Does it work as a self post? No. 13:49:26 QED. 13:49:32 Oh >.> 13:49:47 SCIENCE 13:49:48 Well, then I'll ask about a game 13:50:37 Eh? Are you just trying to ask… something? :P 13:50:55 Yes 13:51:02 Poor, lonely Sgeo. 13:51:13 Trying to find out more information about a game I found out about in 2001 or earlier 13:51:37 Don't know if/when it died, don't know if what I remember about it is a mere hallucination, or anything 13:52:08 * Sgeo replies to a comment with an obscure reference 13:53:15 Sgeo: You seem to have nostalgia but no aoknalgia. :P 13:54:02 * Sgeo didn't get that that was a pun until google failed to return anything 13:54:57 Sgeo: I'm surprised you get the pun even afterwards. 13:55:09 Actually it's not really a pun. 13:55:10 no/aok 13:55:13 Just a neologism. 13:55:15 I barely get it 13:55:16 Sgeo: Oh, haha. 13:55:19 No, that's… no. 13:55:21 Not intentional. 13:55:42 I guess I don't get it 13:55:56 nostalgia = nostos + algos; aoknalgia = aoknos + algos; aoknos is one of the seventy billion words that an English → Ancient Greek dictionary gave me for "present". 13:56:42 Ah 13:57:38 neologism by wild guessing 13:57:54 Sgeo: Which was a long-winded way of saying "Wow, you really like dead games". 13:57:57 Gracenotes: Quite so. 13:58:46 so, I was tuning into my interblogotube the other day 13:58:50 You know, it's funny, I missed Cybertown, but when I was able to visit regularly again, I stopped missing it quite so much 13:59:06 I no longer feel desparate to see the 3d 13:59:12 I do miss the community though 13:59:32 Sgeo: So you're a necrophiliac, essentially. 13:59:53 lol 14:00:11 Also, you're really obsessed with VR games. 14:00:38 I am obsessed with tickle-torturing ehird! 14:00:47 .. 14:00:53 …okay… 14:00:59 *tickle* 14:01:38 wat 14:01:41 http://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/972hb/any_information_about_this_old_probably_now_dead/ 14:02:04 Sgeo: Hahaha those three points are hilariously vague 14:02:20 So is my memory 14:02:41 Any information about this thing? 14:02:45 I remember that it was a thing 14:02:49 and I think you could do things 14:02:54 oh, and the things had things. 14:02:58 * Sgeo adds more details 14:03:09 lol 14:04:21 http://www.reddit.com/r/anonymity/ durp durp 14:06:58 Incidentally, I think I remember where I found that gamer 14:07:00 *game 14:07:12 http://www.reddit.com/r/anonymity+null/ 14:07:43 Gracenotes: Yes? 14:07:48 As I said in the post, :P 14:07:57 I validated your assertion! 14:08:14 I'd be more encouraged about looking there if there was evidence that it contained information about a site that I found around the same time as this mysterious game 14:08:39 What does +null do, exactly? 14:08:57 And how did ehird make a superficially anonymous reddit in the first place? 14:08:59 CSS? 14:09:01 Yes. 14:09:15 you can do /r/a+b+c/ 14:09:20 presumably null is an empty subreddit 14:09:29 ...that's awesome 14:09:30 and this of course disables custom css 14:09:37 since the main page is e.g. /r/blah+blah+blah/ essentially 14:10:16 Will I get an orange envelop if someone replies to my post? 14:10:22 Or do I have to check it manually? 14:10:41 Yes. 14:11:27 Sgeo: By the way, delete it, it belongs in AskReddit. 14:11:29 Probably. 14:11:45 i love poking tft screens 14:11:49 little trail! 14:11:49 I remember seeing something saying that AskReddit is for insightful questions 14:12:04 if it isn't insightful don't ask? :P 14:14:34 A+B=C/E 14:16:48 EA+EB=C 14:16:50 What of it? 14:17:29 E/R=sin(R)/cos(arctan(A*B))+phi 14:18:23 * Sgeo runs, screaming, from the trig 14:19:02 Pull the trig. 14:19:04 ger. 14:20:35 Wolfram Alpha sez: 14:20:38 solve Z=(sin(R)/cos(arctan(A*B))+((1+sqrt(5))/2))*R 14:20:45 Z = 1/2 (2 R sqrt(A^2 B^2+1) sin(R)+sqrt(5) R+R) 14:20:47 The moar you know 14:24:27 ..I assume that what you posted was a rendering of usage of Wolfram Alpha as though it were an IRC conversation, as opposed to Wolfram Alpha being available in some IRC channel? 14:25:05 Correct. 14:25:08 Sgeo: However. 14:25:14 `wolfram solve Z=(sin(R)/cos(arctan(A*B))+((1+sqrt(5))/2))*R 14:25:20 HackEgo? 14:25:24 Oi, HackEgo. 14:25:27 !wolfram solve Z=(sin(R)/cos(arctan(A*B))+((1+sqrt(5))/2))*R 14:25:28 solve Z sin R cos arctan A B \ \ 1 sqrt 5 2 \ \ R \ \ Input interpretation: \ \ solve \ \ Z \ \ sin R cos tan 1 A B \ \ 1 2 \ \ 1 \ \ 5 \ \ R \ \ Result: \ \ Z \ \ 1 2 \ \ 2R \ \ A2 B2 \ \ 1 sin R \ \ 5 R \ \ R \ \ Generated by Wolfram|Alpha (www.wolframalpha.com) on August 3, 2009 from Champaign, IL. © 14:25:33 Ah, there we go. 14:25:35 Just slow. 14:25:47 How can you solve that? 14:25:49 GregorR: You should really make it use the plain text forms. 14:25:52 It doesn't say what variable to solve 14:25:57 Slereah_: It guesses 14:26:10 But it jsut ended up reformulating what I gave it :P 14:26:12 *just 14:27:46 It has too many variables 14:27:47 Uh... a message-box popped up from w|a: "You are about to log in to the site "www37.wolframalpha.com" with the username "xss", but the website does not require authentication. This may be an attempt to trick you. Is "www37.wolframalpha.com" the site you want to visit?" 14:27:54 xD 14:28:08 Anyway, you can tell w|a that "solve [equation] for [var]". 14:28:08 fizzie: Going to wolframalpha.com, I assume 14:28:11 oh 14:28:12 W|A 14:28:16 not Windows Live Authentication or something 14:28:17 xD 14:28:48 Telling it to solve for Z changes nothing, anyway. 14:29:27 Sure, since it was already solving for Z. And it doesn't seem to be able to say anything sensible for R. 14:30:43 If you simplify by removing that last "*R" you get a rather ugly solution when saying "solve for R". 14:31:01 What solution is it? Me lazy. 14:31:09 Just use Mathematica directly 14:31:13 eh, /me tries 14:31:20 R = -sin^(-1)((2 Z sqrt(A^2 B^2+1)-sqrt(5) sqrt(A^2 B^2+1)-sqrt(A^2 B^2+1))/(2 (A^2 B^2+1)))+2 pi n+pi and A^2 B^2+1!=0 and n element Z, R = sin^(-1)((2 Z sqrt(A^2 B^2+1)-sqrt(5) sqrt(A^2 B^2+1)-sqrt(A^2 B^2+1))/(2 (A^2 B^2+1)))+2 pi n and A^2 B^2+1!=0 and n element Z, B = +-i/A and Z = 1/2 (1+sqrt(5)) and A!=0 14:31:29 It really doesn't look as pretty in the plaintext form. 14:31:38 heyy it got pi involved 14:31:40 <3 14:32:30 Well duh 14:32:34 It has trig functionqs 14:33:32 oh, right 14:33:34 boooring 14:37:00 -!- Gracenotes has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:37:00 -!- sebbu2 has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:37:00 -!- AnMaster has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:37:00 -!- mycroftiv has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:37:00 -!- Leonidas has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:44:56 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 14:44:56 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 14:44:56 -!- AnMaster has joined. 14:44:56 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 14:44:56 -!- Leonidas has joined. 14:46:02 hi mycroftiv 14:46:04 Well, pi's lurking everywhere; "integrate e^(-x^2) from -infinity to infinity". 14:47:16 Well, it's in a bucnh of integrals 14:47:17 Truly boggles the mind :P 14:47:25 But then again, so's e 14:49:58 eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 14:51:40 And then you find the loser numbers 14:51:45 -!- fizzie has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:51:46 Like the golden number 14:51:58 They have a couple of gigs 14:52:00 -!- fizzie has joined. 14:52:00 But they never break through 14:52:34 Slereah_: xD 14:52:44 -!- HackEgo has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:52:44 -!- evenant has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:52:44 -!- rodgort has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:52:44 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 14:52:57 NETSPLIT D: 14:53:22 -!- HackEgo has joined. 14:53:22 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 14:53:22 -!- evenant has joined. 14:53:22 -!- rodgort has joined. 14:55:09 aaaaaaa 15:09:19 In the fairly likely event of the software crashing, a wire coming loose, a component failing, or the batteries running low, the wheels will stop and the entire kinetic energy of the system will be used to accelerate my head toward the ground. 15:13:46 -!- HackEgo has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:13:46 -!- evenant has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:13:46 -!- rodgort has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:13:47 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 15:14:35 -!- HackEgo has joined. 15:14:35 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 15:14:35 -!- evenant has joined. 15:14:35 -!- rodgort has joined. 15:51:52 http://labnol.blogspot.com/2007/01/alt-shift-print-screen-scary-keyboard.html absentmindedly tried this on Ubuntu >.> 15:57:20 God I hate stupid blogs with stupid posts. 16:04:50 o.O 16:04:51 ? 16:10:54 Like ↑. 16:11:34 CUPERTINO, California—August 3, 2009—Apple® today announced that Dr. Eric Schmidt, chief executive officer of Google, is resigning from Apple’s Board of Directors, a position he has held since August 2006. 16:12:42 ehird: Eric Schmidt cited a conflict of interest. 16:12:49 Yeah. 16:12:58 Understandable, though if they really think Chrome OS is a competitor to OS X… 16:13:02 (then they're on crack) 16:13:10 Android, though, yeah. 16:13:35 Chrome OS is more of a competitor to Apple TV than OS X. 16:13:39 (and even that's a stretch) 16:14:04 Err, Chrome OS is for browsin' the web and chattin' and documentin'. 16:14:09 Apple TV is for playing music and movies. 16:14:14 I'm not sure how that works. 16:14:42 They're both OSes for 'appliances', not full-fledged computers. 16:14:48 Bit of a stretch still. 16:14:57 But at least in the same ballpark. 16:15:05 Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooort offfffffffffffffffffffffff. 16:15:13 Yuh. 16:15:31 [[Nice attempt at a cover up by Apple “Unfortunately, as Google enters more of Apple’s core businesses, with Android and now Chrome OS, Eric’s effectiveness as an Apple Board member will be significantly diminished..." But we know its about Apple rejecting Google's apps]] 16:15:33 ↑ lol wat 16:15:38 Reddit sure is full of conspiracy theories. 16:15:50 ... 16:16:10 (Apple rejected Google Voice stuff from the iPhone and were dicks and told Google to refund and stuff) 16:16:14 (But err, no.) 16:17:29 [[I know everyone on reddit thinks Apple and Google are like Jesus and Buddha]] 16:17:30 Also, full of strawmen set up just so they can get popular by being contradicted. 16:17:39 Since every second comment on reddit is "Apple sux lol". 16:18:13 Neat, someone denying the Macintosh was influential. 16:18:18 GUYS I DON'T EVEN LIKE APPLE ANY MORE 16:18:20 BUT YOU'RE STILL STUPID. 16:18:40 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:18:51 ... The Mac, not influential? 16:19:03 Clearly! 16:19:22 pikhq: Their argument is that they were dormant in the 90s. 16:19:29 That's why they weren't influential in the 70s/80s. 16:19:29 Even if you point at Xerox and say they did it all first, the Mac was at least influential for *bringing that in a normal PC*... 16:19:31 It's so OBVIOUS now! 16:19:32 ehird: Face. Palm. 16:20:11 soo close to abandoning reddit. 16:21:41 hi ais523, anyway 16:21:52 hi 16:23:09 lol http://www.dibert.com/ 16:23:11 Hi ais523 16:23:24 hi Sgeo 16:23:31 is that link typoed, or deliberate, btw? 16:23:46 deliberate 16:24:01 Well, when I first typed it into the browser, that was a typo 16:24:07 But pasting it in here was deliberate 16:25:20 The Diberts enjoy Dilbert, apparenty 16:25:22 apparently 16:27:46 I'm reading about how someone tried to plant a fake ATM in the middle of a computer security convention 16:28:21 ais523: Defcon. Freaking *Defcon*. 16:28:25 yes 16:28:41 Special form of stupidity there. 16:29:31 that's great 16:31:11 http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_did_a_Big_Mac_cost_today 16:31:24 err, what a strangely worded question 16:32:04 ooh, looks like the doors crashed again yesterday 16:32:07 but I wasn't there to see it 16:32:28 * Sgeo would probably fall for it >.> 16:32:42 Well, is there an easy way to tell if an ATM is fake? 16:33:03 Oh, and did the details of the iPhone issue come out? 16:38:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:39:39 Sgeo: well, if an ATM suddenly appears in a location there wasn't one a while back, and the owners of the place don't remember installing it, it probably isn't real 16:39:53 Norly 16:39:56 it's fake fronts on existing ATMs that are the real problem 16:40:06 which is rather different from fake ATMs 16:40:46 you can just look, though 16:42:39 at what? 16:42:54 the atm. 16:43:06 can you tell a real ATM front from a fake one by sight? 16:44:13 erm, the atm covers, yeah? 16:46:04 I've seen a fake one on the TV, they're pretty realistic 16:46:22 and almost certainly trademark infringement, at that 16:47:41 -!- oklopol has joined. 16:47:53 oh, trademark infringement, that's so what they worry about 16:47:54 hi oklopol 16:47:54 here is a channel 16:48:03 have you ever conducted an 16:48:03 hello ehird 16:48:04 oklo 16:48:05 poll 16:48:16 every day 16:48:28 OH 16:48:29 well 16:48:30 what is this poll 16:48:34 & its contents thereof 16:48:39 but most of them are really small, you can't see them 16:48:50 i 16:48:50 see 16:48:59 so, maybe you busted it up some time yesterday or today? this is possible? 16:49:19 that would make good sense 16:49:22 i would understand that 16:49:44 do i understand? 16:50:09 busted it up? i'm not sure i'm familiar with that outsorted phrase 16:50:31 anyway i'm tired as hell 16:50:34 oklopol: it's when you blam it but it's sort of like a nuclear bomb 16:50:38 also this theme is awesome 16:50:47 right, that's a lot i guess. 16:50:53 -!- Azstal has joined. 16:50:54 a- ha 16:50:56 i just scored me some free pills 16:50:57 is this understand-worthy 16:51:01 are the pills pills of delight 16:51:02 i just scored me some free pills 16:51:03 or fright 16:51:05 delight fright 16:51:12 or freight, freight train, which is it oklopol 16:51:58 you wait your turn, IE is crashing again 16:52:54 so are these pills made of magic//or are their rhymes tragic 16:52:54 hmph, it's gone i guess, anyway they are these things that make like a sizzling sound and then you drink it. 16:52:57 not sure what the term it 16:52:58 *ius 16:52:59 *is 16:53:46 oklopol: /nick oklopill 16:53:53 should probably sleep a bit 16:54:01 -!- oklopol has changed nick to oklopil. 16:54:15 couldn't muster another l 16:54:51 it's easy to get free pills in the uk, it's called a prescription ← Joke humour 16:56:36 yeah that was pretty funny 16:57:48 especially the IE theme is just awesome 16:58:05 every page has a fully perfect look now 16:58:15 except some pics look kinda out of place 16:58:31 also you can't see some stuff 16:58:51 but you can't see everything with the windows theme either, for instance vlc's buttons 16:59:17 who likes to see 16:59:20 i don't think seeing is like, good 16:59:24 like. 16:59:38 i agree so completely fully. 17:00:05 nothing important has been invisible sofar 17:01:07 it turns out that shoes have their own mathematics 17:01:26 are you talking about knot theory 17:01:45 did you know the multiplication of primitive knots is commutative? 17:01:52 well, group operation. 17:02:04 electricity? isn't that invisible? 17:02:15 wait, that's what I get for answering a comment without reading context 17:02:18 well yes, i mean more invisible. 17:02:28 electricity was invisible before 17:03:10 ais523: haha what 17:03:12 with the obvious > for booleans 17:03:16 what was the context there :D 17:03:30 oh 17:03:30 ha 17:03:38 also air 17:03:49 but air isn't very important 17:04:08 wow wouldn't it be cool if electricity was visible 17:04:51 it is if it arcs 17:04:59 like, things with current would turn to electred 17:05:09 right 17:05:11 Pthing: it's not the electricity visible there, it's the air plasma that's conducting it 17:05:14 it's the color 17:05:15 it'd be like a tesla coil all the time basically 17:05:21 open up your PC and your mobo glows 17:05:22 likewise with lightning 17:05:24 sparks and shit 17:05:30 well abloobloo, if we're being like that 17:05:35 then all we can see is electricity 17:05:36 would be awesome 17:05:37 so we can 17:05:37 in fact 17:05:39 so there 17:05:42 IN FACT\ 17:05:44 s/\\$// 17:05:46 it would persuade me 17:05:50 to get a computer case with a side window 17:05:53 despite HATING THAT SHIT 17:05:59 if i could see my motherboard glow and shit. 17:06:01 shit. 17:06:05 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 17:08:15 Pthing: if we want to be PEDANTIC 17:08:22 then we can just say that everything is quantum fluctuations of energy 17:08:26 QED 17:08:26 and we surely do! 17:08:43 sure, God is the creator of all things, seen and unseen 17:08:51 but only the seen parts have to do with electricity 17:09:37 well i hear reals were created by man, actually 17:09:38 also now i think of it, if you put current through something, it'll heat up due to resistance, so become a slightly different colour, if only in the infra-red 17:09:58 so you can get your dream if you wear infra-red vision things 17:11:15 Pthing: when did i say god 17:11:17 i never said god 17:11:50 Pthing: very slightly different, typical computers use milliamps or microamps of current 17:11:56 and try to avoid losing it as heat as much as possible 17:11:59 sure, but it's still there 17:12:29 tiny shift in the emission peak 17:14:29 yes 17:14:41 but the odds of being able to get vision sensitive enough to see it would be rather low 17:15:09 Are you guys thinkin' what I'm thinking? 17:15:22 <#esoteric> Yeah, but how will we get $1bn in funding? 17:15:51 :) 17:16:20 it will save children from accidentally electrocuting themselves 17:16:24 We also need a time machine to modify our genetics. 17:16:30 Pthing: O RLY? "Ooh, shiny…" 17:16:35 no 17:16:49 we make it so that in the device, electricity is presented in an ugly colour 17:16:52 not attractive at all 17:17:07 actually, it shouldn't be a colour at all 17:17:10 just an extra sense 17:17:10 Pthing: yeah but kids love shit like that 17:17:18 some people can see more colours than colourblind people can 17:17:21 they love getting mucky 17:17:23 s/ $// 17:17:28 okay we'll need more funding to work out what colours kids don't like to touch 17:17:32 none! 17:17:39 well 17:17:40 that's not the point, the point is that it won't be a colour at all 17:17:41 you can't be sure 17:17:46 i don't think i had an urge to touch any lamps 17:17:46 it'll be, just a direct brain input 17:17:55 just like unless you're synaesthetic, smells don't have a colour 17:17:55 so something that looks like an expose dlamp 17:17:58 *exposed lamp 17:18:12 I wish I was synaesthetic 17:18:17 why? 17:18:22 it'd be neat 17:18:31 can't think of any disadvantages either 17:23:20 [[This kind of synesthesia is usually easily achieved by means of psychedelic drugs, such as LSD, psilocybin or Cannabinoids.]] 17:23:20 —Wikipedia 17:24:58 don't even think about it 17:25:09 I was joking. 17:25:12 even if synaesthesia has no disadvantages, the method of obtaining it probably does 17:25:17 I just find it amusing when people put things like that in Wikipedia. 17:25:34 My brain adds "Wink, wink, nudge, nudge." at the end. 17:30:00 wat 17:30:11 wat 17:30:17 wat tyler 17:37:27 -!- jix_ has joined. 17:38:47 -!- ehird has quit. 17:39:52 -!- ehird has joined. 17:40:01 wat diddi miss 17:41:19 Zip, zilch, nada. 17:47:36 [17:38] <-- ehird has left this server. 17:47:38 [17:39] --> ehird has joined this channel (n=ehird@91.105.72.107). 17:47:45 I didn't miss those 17:48:06 But did you, in fact, go <-- that way, or --> this. 17:48:20 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:49:51 Yes. 17:56:39 -!- nooga has joined. 17:57:02 funny 17:57:14 i tried to remove all kinds of comments and macros from C/C++ code using regexp 17:57:31 and i think it could be done more efficiently without using regexp 17:59:38 nope. 18:00:14 -!- Asztal has joined. 18:00:36 the task seems easy 18:00:59 but it's not as easy as you'd expect 18:02:01 oklopil: pope 18:04:14 the issue is people doing things like " /* this is not a comment because it's in a string literal */ " 18:04:34 i've never put /* or */ inside a string, like, ever 18:04:38 in a literal 18:04:41 ehird: I have, in C-INTERCAL 18:04:45 it generates C code as output 18:04:55 that involves putting all sorts of C-like snippets in string literals, including comments 18:04:59 well, i suppose 18:05:01 i may have i guess. 18:05:12 but "all kinds of" 18:05:14 i guess things like 18:05:18 /*@javadocstyle*/ 18:05:21 nooga, so, you basically need to parse C. :P 18:05:22 which are unlikely to appear in generated code 18:05:27 Language.C! 18:05:41 ehird: :) 18:05:43 ehird: I thought javadoc comments /only/ appeared in generated code 18:05:46 <3 Parsec 18:05:46 all the code generators add them 18:05:52 pikhq: Err, what? 18:05:58 Erm. 18:05:59 Language.C doesn't use Parsec, I think. 18:06:01 pikhq: correct 18:06:01 ais523: erm, no 18:06:03 well 18:06:07 Not Parsec. Thinko. 18:06:07 the template is added by IDEs 18:06:10 yes 18:06:10 but no 18:06:14 javadocs are used in human-written code 18:06:16 not generated code 18:06:17 <3 parsers. 18:06:20 only by AnMaster 18:06:38 ehird: He may be making a snide claim that Java programmers are just code generators. 18:06:41 ais523: i think you should stop disputing it because every java project uses javadocs 18:06:43 most people are too lazy to do that sort of thing 18:06:50 pikhq: I think he's just never read any java code 18:06:53 ehird: ok, I'm sorry, I'm just used to /really bad/ Java 18:06:57 rather than good Java 18:07:08 ais523: All Apache Java projects and all Eclipse Java projects are totally full of javadocs. 18:07:17 As well as a whole bunch of independent libraries; pretty much all of them. 18:07:20 And the standard libraries. 18:07:32 Javadoc is used extensively in Java. 18:07:34 ehird: I'm used to people requiring that the recipient of their Java code install a certain IDE in order to run it 18:07:35 Javadoc is kinda sucky, but it's very common. 18:07:44 It's about as commonly used as *objects* in Java. :P 18:07:45 that's the sort of really bad Java I mean 18:07:52 ais523: that's usually sound advice in general, but globally 18:07:58 as in, using Java without an IDE is suicide 18:07:58 but indeed 18:08:04 ehird: in order to compile, maybe 18:08:06 in order to /run/? 18:08:09 well, okay 18:08:14 i've never tried to program java with an ide 18:08:17 I mainly meant in order to code or read 18:08:17 hooh 18:08:23 nope 18:08:26 Actually, to just build Java without an IDE should be easy. 18:08:26 oklopil: yes but trazer doesn't really count. 18:08:30 i won't need to parse C 18:08:31 I got really annoyed at them and went and made a simple GUI wrapper around their program, then put it all in a runnable .jar 18:08:37 works especially great without one, because you don't have to import explicitly 18:08:37 Don't almost all Java IDEs use Ant? 18:08:38 and said "this is how you should be distributing your program" 18:08:40 ehird: i haven't made trazer 18:08:46 but i have made about a hundred java progs 18:08:46 oklopil: you patched! 18:08:52 yes exactly progs 18:08:53 well i've added a few modules 18:08:55 = one file dealies 18:09:04 ais523: not on OS X! 18:09:07 no with java i usually use multiple files 18:09:20 because it's nice to do with java 18:09:22 I'd say that I don't use an IDE at all... But Emacs almost certainly counts as an IDE. 18:09:26 oklopil: Oh shut up :P 18:09:31 :D 18:09:35 pikhq: you just have an inferior OS on top of your OS because your OS sucks 18:10:01 ehird: Multiple. 18:10:11 o_o 18:10:14 (the Haskell runtime system could pretty much count as an OS kernel. :P) 18:10:18 -!- Azstal has quit (Connection timed out). 18:10:47 * pikhq exaggerates to make ehird's eyes pop out 18:11:02 beeh 18:11:13 pikhq: Consider them pooped. 18:11:15 …poppde. 18:11:18 …popped. 18:11:22 Heh, that's a funny User-Agent string: "Mozilla/4.1 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Symbian OS; N-Gage;452) Opera 6.20 [en]". It's a Mozilla derivative... except it's MSIE instead... except it's Opera instead. 18:11:46 every browser in existence is a mozilla derivative 18:11:54 otherwise, how would websites know it supported frames? 18:11:55 I wish that we could revise user agents to make sense. 18:12:08 pikhq: I wish we could eliminate user agents 18:12:11 well 18:12:14 modularise them, rather 18:12:19 I wish we could eliminate users with agents. 18:12:31 I like the general idea, because e.g. software sites can point you to the version for your OS and the like 18:12:31 Maybe with a comma there. 18:12:47 They get abused so much. 18:13:07 by whom 18:13:11 s/$/?/ 18:13:16 my abs almost never get used 18:13:39 People who think "this site only works on IE 6.0" is a good idea. 18:14:07 does that happen? 18:14:12 oklopil: maybe you should hang around negative people more often 18:14:15 i thought it was just "this site works on anything but ie" 18:14:26 lol no 18:14:28 Opera (9.24 winxp, 9.25 winxp, 6.05 win98) doesn't seem to advertise itself as a Mozilla derivative, let alone IE 5. I think that Symbian-Opera-6 is a bit "special". 18:14:45 opera is so bloated it has a whole list of browsers you can tell it to impersonate 18:15:07 ehird: some streaming services do that, and i've seen at least a few other pages that do it 18:15:09 Yes, there's that, but I don't think it advertises itself as Opera at all when impersonating really. Not that I've tested. 18:15:16 there are plenty ie only sites 18:15:20 they just all suck 18:15:51 There are also plenty IE-only-sites which use that ActiveX stuff somehow. 18:16:07 right, i'm talking about useful pages 18:16:08 Well, I guess the suck category already covered that. 18:16:43 no idea what activex is 18:16:59 but sounds like something nice and useful that everybody hate 18:17:03 *hates 18:17:05 kinda like flash 18:17:34 oklopil: active-x lets you run arbitrary native code in the browser. 18:17:43 arbitrary? :D 18:17:44 It's a bit like Java applets, except only for Windows and IE and without the attempt at security. 18:17:44 buggily and slowly, usually. 18:17:48 oklopil: pretty much yes 18:17:50 well that's just plain awesome :DD 18:17:54 you have to OK it of course 18:18:16 right, naturally people would read the executable disassembly before running 18:18:42 yes. 18:20:07 Well, one Finnish bank (Sampo) made their net-bank's "security solution" to require Java with some native JNI blobs recently, when their computer systems were "streamlined" to conform with Danske Bank, who bought Sampo. 18:20:57 * ehird attempts to click his mouse with only pressure on the top bit 18:21:15 (note: this is impossible) 18:21:26 That stuff was the crazitude; they gave a 100-eur discount for people who had to buy a new computer to access their web-bank. 18:21:56 Java applets using JNI... 18:22:04 YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG. 18:22:34 http://kks.cabal.fi/SampoApplet has a bit of decompilation; it does quite a lot of user-hardware-sniffing, probably to provide some sort of per-machine ID. 18:23:07 Fail. 18:23:19 And http://hsivonen.iki.fi/sampo-epic-multifail/ has the full story. 18:23:39 that's one ultra megafail 18:23:58 It was certainly kind of them to provide a spectacle. 18:25:08 And what a spectacle. 18:25:42 Especially that point where their pages just displayed the short text "404 multifail", you can't get much better even with planning, let alone by accident. 18:25:55 aren't all South Korean banks required to use ActiveX for security? 18:26:14 I'm surprised any exist at all, given the contradiction there 18:26:35 There was at least one Chinese bank requiring ActiveX. 18:26:41 Well, "is", I guess. 18:32:33 18:21] fizzie: That stuff was the crazitude; they gave a 100-eur discount for people who had to buy a new computer to access their web-bank. 18:32:35 xDxDxD 18:32:37 *[:1 18:32:40 ... 18:32:42 *[1: 18:33:15 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 18:33:18 Of course it was only when you bought from their partner-computer-salesplace or some-such. 18:33:22 Is security so damned hard? 18:33:27 (apparently yes) 18:33:32 security is very easy to get wrong 18:33:39 sufficiently so, that it's unknown how easy it is to get right 18:34:20 “Se ei ole aukko, kunnes me pystymme itse varmistamaan että se on aukko.” (“It is not a hole until we are able to verify ourselves that it is a hole.”) — Hannu Vuola, head of communications at Sampo Pankki in a later revised news item in Helsingin Sanomat on the topic of a gaping XSS hole in Sampo’s net bank 18:34:20 → 18:34:20 http://kottke.org/04/07/my-new-policy 18:34:24 We have a policy that it is not a hole. 18:38:17 -!- Warrigal has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:43:38 there needs to be an api on the internet that lets you get every page. 18:44:04 lets you get every page? 18:44:40 i don't seem to understand sentences today. 18:44:58 What, like... HTTP? 18:45:28 maybe more like gopher 18:46:09 Is there anything wrong with using openid-provider.appspot.com for my OpenID needs? 18:46:28 Sgeo: yes, it only supports openid 1 18:46:33 and is unmaintained 18:46:39 1? 18:46:41 yes. 18:46:44 as opposed to 2. 18:46:54 either go with myopenid.com, which is owned by a big openid player 18:46:57 or host your own with phpmyid 18:47:41 * Sgeo used to use um, 18:47:52 Something that died 18:48:10 See? Don't do that. 18:48:30 Also, Google provides OpenIDs officially now, although crippeldly. 18:48:38 pikhq: not http, EVERY page 18:48:43 myopenid.com makes SSL client certificates for you :) 18:49:40 Sgeo: remember to use a domain you control 18:49:49 Bleh 18:49:50 and just set the openid in a yadis file w/ http header, or in the html 18:49:54 even if you use another provider 18:49:55 that way 18:49:58 if your provider dies 18:50:00 you can just switch over 18:50:03 and use the same id 18:50:21 Hm, good point 18:50:55 Not so easy for, say, Joe the Plumber, though 18:51:03 are you joe the plumber? 18:51:11 protip: NOBODY'S JOE THE PLUMBER 18:51:11 lol ni 18:51:39 there are people who only have like 3 accounts; they don't need openid. there are people who have a bunch of accounts but can't set up their own domain; they will use one of the providers directly. 18:51:43 then there's everyone else. 18:51:57 at the moment, the second group barely uses openid 18:52:05 There's probably wordpress plugins and whatever for it to make it easier, anyway 18:52:38 right someone who has a wordpress blog they can put plugins on falls in the third category 18:55:06 guys 18:55:11 if there's bicycles and unicycles and tricycles 18:55:35 why isn't there a nilcycle 18:55:40 that's called a stick 18:55:42 darn 18:55:47 too fast 18:56:05 * Sgeo just assumed that you were going to say quadricycle for some reason 18:56:12 too fast how oklopil xD 18:56:19 anyway no 18:56:20 well, it only made sense as a correct guess of what you'd say. 18:56:22 a stick can't get you places 18:56:41 all the others can 18:56:41 Tie a carrot to the stick and it can get you to places. 18:56:51 maybe a pogo stick 18:56:52 but i mean like 18:56:54 or whatever it's called 18:56:56 you have to have pedals 18:56:58 all of them have pedals 18:56:58 two pedals 18:57:02 so i'm thinking that these pedals, like 18:57:05 lift it off the air a bit 18:57:06 with the energy 18:57:07 then back down 18:57:13 so it's basically a pogo stick except you pedal 18:57:17 and can turn 18:57:39 the challenge is not lunging forwards and hitting your head on the ground 18:57:45 you can turn with a pogo stick 18:58:15 yes but 18:58:17 not with handlebars 18:58:53 well you turn with it the same way you do with a unicycle, so i'd count it 18:59:03 but yeah pedals should probably exist. 18:59:20 also unicycles don't usually have hb's 18:59:34 true 18:59:42 there should be a unicycle that's really a bicycle with just one wheel 18:59:53 :D 19:00:45 Sgeo just assumed that you were going to say quadricycle for some reason <<< you just don't know ehird 19:00:52 quite 19:01:03 anyway for a nilcycle you just take a bike-unicycle and remove the wheel, then hook the pedals up to like... a fan that spins really fast to lift you up a little bit 19:01:16 the handlebars move around the thing holding the fan 19:01:16 * Sgeo isn't paying full attention to the chat 19:01:19 Mafia's addicting 19:01:57 `addquote Mafia's addictin 19:01:58 dammit 19:01:59 60| Mafia's addictin 19:02:00 `revert last 19:02:01 Done. 19:02:03 `revert 19:02:04 Done. 19:02:04 `help 19:02:05 Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ 19:02:18 `revert 168 19:02:19 Done. 19:02:20 `addquote Mafia's addicting 19:02:22 60| Mafia's addicting 19:02:25 ...arbitrary code? 19:03:01 totally 19:03:28 That's the point. 19:03:35 err what 19:03:41 Of HackEgo. 19:03:47 oh 19:03:55 LOL RM -RF / GREGOR MUST BE STOOPID 19:04:24 `revert 1 19:04:25 Done. 19:04:36 `ls 19:04:37 bin \ paste \ quotes \ tmpdir.25063 19:04:48 sigh. 19:04:52 `revert 169 19:04:53 Done. 19:04:56 `ls 19:04:58 bin \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.25131 19:05:03 `whoami 19:05:05 No output. 19:05:07 `who 19:05:08 No output. 19:05:12 hmm 19:05:18 `cat /etc/passwd\ 19:05:19 No output. 19:05:21 `cat /etc/passwd 19:05:22 No output. 19:05:29 lol wtg Sgeo 19:05:33 `ls bin 19:05:34 ..what constitutes output? 19:05:34 addquote \ calc \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ imdb \ minifind \ paste \ quote \ runfor \ strfile \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram 19:05:36 `ls / 19:05:37 bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr 19:05:39 `ls /etc 19:05:40 alternatives 19:05:42 creatyres? 19:05:43 :) 19:05:43 Sgeo: stdout 19:05:46 creatures? 19:05:55 `ls ~/bin/creatures 19:05:57 No output. 19:05:57 `url bin/creatures 19:05:58 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/bin/creatures 19:06:09 `creatures User:Sgeo 19:06:11 \ I'm the one who created this project. Known as Sgeo almost everywhere I'm known, one place as Oegs, and one place as Sgeo2. 19:06:24 >.> 19:06:32 What happens if there's too much output? 19:06:37 `creatures Norn 19:06:39 \ Norns (Cyberlifogenis cutis) are a [9]species of [10]creature, created by the [11]Shee to entertain them and serve [12]tea and [13]biscuits. They were [14]genetically engineered on the disc-shaped planet [15]Albia. Many were abandoned there as the [16]Shee took off in their spaceship, the [17]Ark (although they took a few of 19:06:45 `run yes 19:06:47 y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y 19:06:59 `run creatures Norn | paste 19:07:00 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.13876 19:07:28 The one place I'm known as Oegs is now dead 19:07:46 `ls / 19:07:48 bin \ dev \ etc \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ proc \ tmp \ usr 19:07:50 `ls /proc 19:07:52 1 \ 10253 \ 10254 \ 10256 \ 10258 \ 10259 \ 10265 \ 10319 \ 10322 \ 10326 \ 10327 \ 10329 \ 104 \ 105 \ 10562 \ 10563 \ 11057 \ 11069 \ 11074 \ 11457 \ 1149 \ 11501 \ 11753 \ 11772 \ 11776 \ 12046 \ 1291 \ 13928 \ 13946 \ 13948 \ 1418 \ 1421 \ 14617 \ 14636 \ 14640 \ 1486 \ 15310 \ 15316 \ 15317 \ 15318 \ 15324 \ 15325 \ 15543 19:07:58 `run ls /proc | paste 19:07:59 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/paste/paste.25089 19:08:13 `run url <(ls /proc) 19:08:14 http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip//dev/fd/63 19:08:16 lawl 19:10:19 I actually clicked on that last link, just because I was curious as to what codu's reaction would be 19:10:27 ditto 19:10:29 error: dev/fd/63@b7f832f99b43: not found in manifest 19:10:37 yeah, it's just looking it up in the hg repository 19:23:33 ooh 19:23:37 * ehird hatches an evil plan 19:23:41 An evil FUN plan! 19:24:35 commit the hg repo into itself? 19:25:05 nope 19:25:20 found a little software ditty that makes a virtual screen on your network and lets you connect via vnc 19:25:30 = iphone + old mac can be extra screenies 19:27:35 admittedly not ones of any great size, but. 19:30:13 -!- ehird has quit. 19:32:18 -!- ehird has joined. 19:32:54 ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird ehird MONAD NOMAD 19:33:07 Ohh, it's a nomad. 19:33:11 Where'd the topic go? 19:33:22 I like big eths and I cannot lie, you other esolangers can't deny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D 19:35:39 It's not showing up here. 19:35:45 hm 19:35:52 so i got an apartment! :D 19:36:44 cool. 19:36:54 hmm screenrecycler doesn't appear to let you change the res 19:37:04 -!- ehird has left (?). 19:37:08 -!- ehird has joined. 19:37:11 topic now 19:38:41 ok the vnc works... slowly 19:39:57 also 19:40:01 ive decided im going to get into 19:40:05 woodworking. 19:40:06 :X 19:40:18 so you built your own apartment 19:40:23 ambitious! 19:40:24 augur: i thought you already worked wood 19:40:25 specifically, studio craft 19:40:26 BADUM TISH 19:40:28 and 19:40:35 (oh ill work your wood alright) 19:40:39 and puzzlebox making 19:40:45 that was the joke 19:40:49 yes. 19:40:50 i know. 19:41:01 so was the reply. 19:41:16 which implied a sexual overture 19:41:57 so 19:41:58 puzzleboxes 19:42:08 like in hellraiser :X 19:42:12 or atleast similar 19:44:43 -!- olsner has joined. 19:45:44 augur: was about to ask if your head was riddled with pins 19:45:54 it is not sir 19:46:06 but then, pinhead doesnt make the lament configurations 19:46:09 meh fuck iphone, I'ma using mah old crt 19:46:09 the engineer makes them. 19:46:10 wait 19:46:16 it is actually slower 19:46:17 lol 19:46:27 its advantage is being plugged in to ethernet and having perhiphrials of course 19:46:41 *peripherals 19:47:27 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 19:51:20 ehird: Speaking of phones, I'm trying out ssh+irssi with this N-Gage. The horror! 19:51:29 ow 19:52:22 Takes about 30 of complete ui-hangup to process the ssh key. 19:53:08 Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word? 19:53:31 xD 19:53:45 `addquote Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word? 19:53:47 61| Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word? 19:55:56 34x26 characters with a 4x6 font. 19:55:57 only by AnMaster <-- even when reading the context I'm not sure if you mean A) Adding javadoc to generated code. B) NOT doing A. C) Adding javadoc to hand written code. 19:56:20 He means flying. 19:56:21 I meant C, but I doubt it matters 19:56:23 In to the sky. 19:56:28 ais523, ah :) 19:56:35 well I ran into both sorts of code 19:57:05 other than me certainly add doxygen/javadoc/edoc/ 19:57:13 others* 19:57:15 I think 19:58:20 i like how you corrected it and it's still wrong 19:58:34 Takes about 30 [seconds] of complete ui-hangup to process the ssh key. <-- sounds to me like either slow or severely overloaded host for the ssh server? 19:58:47 Or… it's a fuckin' mobile phone! 19:58:54 ehird, sshing *to* a phone? 19:58:55 From ~'04. 19:59:00 … 19:59:29 does anyone know a vnc client for mac os 9? 19:59:56 because, iirc the client part doesn't need to do as much processing as the server side. 19:59:59 forgot where I read that 20:00:30 and I don't know enough about the protocol details to be able to confirm/deny it. 20:00:55 -!- Judofyr has joined. 20:10:20 nobody? 20:17:13 ehird, just wondering what the hell you plan to do. VNC *server* I could have understood. 20:17:19 and: no idea of such a software 20:17:33 I installed a program that creates a virtual screen and exposes it via VNC. 20:17:46 = Who doesn't want an extra 800x600 of realestate running on a slow OS on a loud computer? 20:17:48 and you want to use a CRT for it? 20:18:01 That's all I have, man. 20:18:09 Well, I tried my iPhone. 20:18:15 Mouse/keyboard didn't work and it was slow. 20:18:26 did you try googling? 20:18:32 you can make your mouse into an 800x600 screen? 20:18:45 theory: optical mice can control the brightness of the laser they use to illuminate the table below them 20:18:46 ais523: …what? 20:18:50 When did I say mouse? 20:18:51 and can also tell where they are, due to being mice 20:18:51 AnMaster: yes. 20:18:53 lots. 20:18:57 Mouse/keyboard didn't work and it was slow. 20:19:08 so, in theory, you could get an optical mouse and move it around in midair really quickly 20:19:10 20:18] ehird: Well, I tried my iPhone. 20:19:11 [20:18] ehird: Mouse/keyboard didn't work and it was slow. 20:19:13 s/^2/[2/ 20:19:23 and it could project a screen onto the surface below it 20:19:26 I think ais523 is trying to joke 20:19:31 not sure though 20:19:32 reasons this doesn't work: no mouse is that fast and accurate 20:19:35 ais523: that could work for vector graphics 20:19:41 also, optical mice are sort of obsolete 20:19:50 ehird: well, they're still common regardless 20:19:57 true 20:20:00 what's replacing them? 20:20:05 laser mice 20:20:10 they're similar but work on every surface 20:20:13 and you can't see their beam 20:20:17 ehird, most new mice that aren't especially marketed to gamers seems to be optical ones still 20:20:18 ah, ok 20:20:26 you could do the same thing just with visible light, and use the same trick 20:20:35 and get an invisible screen! 20:20:42 haha 20:20:50 do it on a flourescent surface that makes the beam visible 20:20:53 noo 20:20:55 it's more zen this way 20:21:07 then, put it in public and "show" pornography on it 20:21:15 you get to edgily challenge the law and be an artist in one go! 20:21:19 except nobody would notice. 20:21:25 anyway... how would the mouse be moved? By the user still? 20:21:41 if so he/she would basically draw his/her own screen and decide what is on it 20:21:46 -!- kar8nga has joined. 20:21:47 by a machine if you want to have any hope at it 20:21:51 hmm... clearly mice need motors to move around 20:21:52 unless I guess you track the position of the mouse 20:21:55 since you'd have to oscillate between two positions 20:21:55 like... 20:21:58 incredibly quickly 20:22:00 after all, programs can move the mouse pointer 20:22:08 light only active when it is supposed to draw something 20:22:11 if that doesn't move the mouse too, clearly you have a leaky correspondence 20:22:17 and the user moves it back and forth to let it fill in 20:22:27 AnMaster: i don't think you understand 20:22:31 as soon as you move away the light is gone 20:22:45 ais523: not really 20:22:48 your mousepad is smaller than your screen 20:22:53 and you backtrack to start moving again often 20:22:57 the effect will be rather like, one of those special papers where you use a pencil on the side to draw and they used some special surface to make it stick better to some areas 20:22:57 so it's not a 1:1 mapping already 20:23:00 well 20:23:01 also, mouse acceleration 20:23:08 on a flourescent surface of course 20:23:10 ehird: some people literally can't access the parts of their screen that don't correspond to locations for the mouse 20:23:17 also you need a ball then to track without making it flourescent 20:23:19 because they don't realise they can pick the mouse up and move it elsewhere 20:23:20 two balls in fact 20:23:24 ais523: not literally can't 20:23:27 they're physically capable 20:23:28 ehird: as in, don't know how 20:23:31 to track orientation too 20:23:37 ehird, understand now? 20:23:38 ais523: yes, I was calling out your misuse of "literally" 20:23:42 literally means literally 20:23:47 anyway, my 'mousepad' is bigger than my screen 20:23:51 so I can aim for the corners and sides easily 20:23:55 AnMaster: if you're asking about two balls ask augur 20:23:58 ... 20:24:03 ehird, two *balls in mice* 20:24:04 ehird: If they're mentally incapable they literally can't do it. 20:24:04 also, play Enigma 20:24:06 hyuk hyuk hyuk 20:24:17 Deewiant: they're able, they just haven't thought of it 20:24:47 ehird: I.e. they're not able 20:25:00 your definition of able is fucked up 20:25:02 ehird, to track mouse orientation and position so it can use the laser on the flourescent surface only, needs balls to track position with laser turned off 20:25:06 i haven't jumped out of a window today 20:25:13 however i am perfectly able of doing so 20:25:28 AnMaster: I'm using a private SSH key; it's the decrypting of that which takes the 30 seconds, I think, since it hangs up immediately after giving it a passphrase, and then unhangs at the moment it starts sending packets out (sez tcpdump) to the SSH server. 20:25:38 The people in question are unable without outside assistance 20:25:46 fizzie, decrypting the private key? :D 20:26:21 fizzie, also hang up? as in closing the TCP connection? 20:26:24 Deewiant: your definition of able sucks 20:26:33 how is that supposed to work... 20:26:33 they are not unable; they could do it by mistake 20:26:37 they just haven't thought of it 20:26:39 Well, that, or doing whatever the SSH protocol needs to have be done with the key, I don't really know the details. TCP doesn't mind a pause of half a minute, the UI just is unresponsive that long. 20:26:58 ehird: I suppose you're also capable of proving Fermat's last theorem, since you could if somebody told you how? 20:27:05 fizzie, with "hang up" you don't mean a TCP RST package? 20:27:21 Deewiant: I don't respond to analogies that don't actually analogise properly 20:27:22 AnMaster: No. Maybe I should've used "locks up" there. Hanging up would make it rather unusable. 20:28:14 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:28:17 ehird: Seems like the same thing to me, but whatever. 20:28:45 Deewiant: you may be right, it just sits badly with me 20:29:02 I can see that :-P 20:29:33 -!- sebbu has joined. 20:31:10 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 20:31:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:32:29 -!- AnMaster_ has joined. 20:32:47 -!- AnMaster has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:32:53 -!- AnMaster_ has changed nick to AnMaster. 20:33:28 Where are the dangeroos? 20:33:31 bah 20:33:45 AnMaster: No. Maybe I should've used "locks up" there. Hanging up would make it rather unusable. 20:33:47 Deewiant, good analogy in fact... 20:33:49 fizzie, ah 20:33:51 not sure if anything was missed there 20:33:57 (in either direction) 20:34:01 -!- mycrofti1 has joined. 20:34:03 bbl 20:35:01 Both of your lines I never saw. 20:39:53 !bf ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>. 20:39:54 Hello World! 20:42:00 -!- puzzlet has joined. 20:43:05 -!- ehird has quit. 20:44:55 -!- mycroftiv has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:46:33 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:50:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:09:48 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:12:31 -!- FireyFly has joined. 21:13:43 -!- oklopil has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:15:19 -!- coppro has joined. 21:23:58 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:24:08 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:24:22 -!- augur has joined. 21:29:59 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:52:27 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:56:02 -!- coppro has joined. 21:59:28 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 21:59:44 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 22:19:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:20:08 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:26:08 -!- ehird has joined. 22:38:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:49:03 this desk is so stupid with its sharp end of the keyboard stand thing 22:49:06 why isn't it curved 22:49:08 my poor arms 22:57:38 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 23:05:05 portability makes programming unfun, I've decided 23:05:47 Exception: Haskell. 23:06:02 i'm referring to lower-level sort of programming ofc 23:06:07 (and other high-level languages, but those are less awesome. :P) 23:06:23 without portability you can embed machine code, use hardcoded addresses, poke registers, use hardware without abstraction layers and generally poke all around 23:06:29 Well, yeah. C++ and down, portability? 23:06:33 layers of abstraction are inherently more limited and thus less fun 23:06:41 That's a royal bitch. 23:06:43 and in fact the best situation is when there's only one model 23:06:46 same speeds of everything 23:06:52 then you can use precise timing, talk about how fast things are in literal terms 23:06:53 etc 23:07:20 ehird, portability in those languages is not merely unfun, it is the antifun. 23:07:27 …which brings me to my point: i want an OLPC so I can hack with Forth on openfirmware :) 23:07:33 although that chiclet keyboard looks unfun. 23:07:41 also I've read negative things about the olpc people 23:07:43 esp. wrt windows 23:07:52 why can't I buy an olpc from the company before they did that? 23:07:52 Having to just deal with different UNIXes is a PITA. 23:08:03 well okay you can't really buy it but. 23:08:10 (I offer Autotools as proof of that) 23:09:24 what lead to my revelation: being on an island and having a vis— wait, that was John. What I meant to say was http://lukego.livejournal.com/8427.html. 23:10:48 hmph, you can buy an olpc but for >$300 since you have to buy an extra one for some stupid kid in africa :-P 23:11:22 oh, they're not even doing that program any more 23:11:23 uber lame 23:12:35 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:16:22 -!- augur has joined. 23:19:11 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 23:23:26 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 23:24:05 -!- coppro has joined. 23:42:51 Forth is a wonderful language 23:44:38 Hey, that's the solution to my JIT-in-assembler woes! 23:44:42 Write the core OS in Forth! 23:44:58 ^_^ 23:47:36 -!- mycrofti1 has changed nick to mycroftiv. 23:47:53 Hi mycroftiv. 23:51:14 ehird: hey there 23:52:57 Forth is awesome, don't you agree? 23:54:02 i havent used it personally so i dont actually have an opinion on forth, really 23:54:48 Extremely minimal implementation, unifying paradigm/execution mechanism and extreme flexibility; with the flexibility not only being idiomatic but pretty much The Way To Do It. 23:54:55 Sounds like a good mix to me. 23:55:38 i like a lot of the concepts, the reflexivity and integrating compilation with the main environment 23:56:15 I also like that it brings such expressiveness to real-time hackery of low-level hardware. 23:57:36 my grandfather started me out on RPN with this ancient hewlett-packard calculator that cost probably 500 million dollars in the late 60s currency he bought it with, but i still havent quite learned to parse that kind of stack based stuff as well as i should by eye 23:59:13 mycroftiv: the nice thing about forth is that it doesn't generally read like rpn 23:59:28 because of parsing words that can read ahead and the general natural language formation 2009-08-04: 00:00:41 what is some of your thinking on symbols and syntax? 00:01:43 i find it incredibly frustrating that compared to mathematics, the use of symbols in computer languages is entirely inconsistent and contradictory 00:02:10 Syntax is a bloody pain in the arse. 00:02:34 I think to improve on it we need to take cues from user interface design, because that's what it is. 00:02:39 well put 00:03:15 I dislike s-expressions because they put a less common usecase, metaprogramming, over the more common one: regular programming. 00:03:34 I'm pro-metaprogramming, but the whole language doesn't have to be made worse just for it. 00:03:55 ill accept that, thats for sure - you always want the stuff you do the most often to have the most direct expression 00:04:37 yep 00:07:20 otoh, sometimes tailoring syntax for metaprogramming can lead to great things 00:07:35 e.g. a forth example: (I'll pastebin a console log due to laziness) 00:07:38 definitely, its very interesting the power of just a graceful noptation 00:08:09 http://pastie.org/570426.txt?key=2vfkfnbijhced9ucvqbjw 00:08:20 with a less minimal syntax, I couldn't have done that 00:08:30 I couldn't have my definitions be the form they create 00:08:54 : \n cr ; was a bit gratuitous now that i think about it 00:09:28 very nice compressed expression of meaning, absolutely 00:10:16 but I haven't seen forth scale up to a smalltalk-esque system 00:10:33 rich structures in forth, for instance, are not really practical 00:10:38 (rich = smalltalk object level) 00:10:56 so I think it's good for hacking up stuff, exploring and the lower-level systems 00:11:05 and perhaps isolated components 00:11:06 which is still an awful lot 00:12:01 ive been playing with an idea for a language that im not entirely sure really makes sense or not, but i guess this is the place to throw it out there 00:12:24 please do 00:12:29 its an incredibly minimalistic language based on the observation that such a huge amount of lines of code are just assignment statements 00:12:59 and also the observation in plan9 that everything somehow works in a somewhat similar way, with bind NEW OLD constantly - just making NEW a new name for OLD, which is basically like an assignment 00:13:54 so the idea is that you are given to stat - a basic environment that just has names that correspond to various basic functions (obviously a name for screen display, a name for keyboard input, that kind of thing) 00:14:20 mycroftiv: note that in haskell assignment is much less common 00:14:23 and then the only thing you ever do - the only statement that exists - is just assignment / binding - you get tokens also of course to work with, numbers and letters etc 00:14:26 of course 00:14:30 i understand the functional languages are totally different 00:14:34 as generally you just make transformations, sometimes splitting a value into two to retain one or to perform two operations 00:14:35 and yeah 00:14:39 just throwing it out there 00:14:51 I'm not convinced that assignment as an operation is very useful 00:14:56 as opposed to a syntactic denotation of a name 00:14:59 but go on 00:15:24 well thats really exactly what im trying to get at 00:15:40 so how do you use assignment to do things? 00:15:46 the idea that maybe you can make an enviroment where 'all you do' is just define the names 00:16:15 well, you obviously have to have some names/objects that correspond in a simple way to things like input and output 00:16:48 as a very lame conceptual example, the idea that you can do 'bind keyboard screen' - and then what you type shows up on the screen - captures a little bit of it 00:17:11 as graphical noise, I assume 00:17:26 mycroftiv: anyway, that's a distinct operation from assignment 00:17:35 in a way yes, in a way no 00:17:42 it's plugging one thing into another 00:17:45 i.e., a pipe 00:17:49 because i can conceptualize assignment as making a variable a 'label' for a number 00:18:07 mycroftiv: piping the value to a program which holds on to it 00:18:12 and then outputs it forever 00:18:40 sure, there are lots of mappings of what is going on 00:20:05 the core of the idea is just an environment where all you do is create the names you want to use, decide what labels will refer to what tokens/values, and 'thats it' 00:20:56 mm 00:21:02 I don't think it's assignment. 00:21:16 thats true, but since the language doesnt have assingment as a separate concept... 00:21:29 it seems like the idea of 'naming' can kind of encompass it - in fact, 'late binding' is really related 00:21:46 late binding plays with the distinction between 'just a name' and an actual 'changing a thing' right? 00:21:52 sorry for my sloppy terminology 00:22:05 I don't think so. 00:22:11 Late binding just changes how names are resolved, not assigned 00:22:13 s/$/./ 00:22:25 mycroftiv: I think assignment is a *subset* of your operation. 00:22:34 oh yeah absolutely, thats the idea 00:27:18 its obviously a conceptual/experimental language, the question being 'what is the minimal set of initial objects/tokens that you need for such an environment to be theoretically usable and turing complete?' 00:27:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:29:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:29:15 just to easily establish that its certainly possible, you could obviously supply an environment where the premade objects that you get to rename/bind are an infinitely long tape, a collection of 'stateholders' and then the obvious mark-making rules - of course at that point youve just overlaid a silly semantics across a generic utm, but its just a limit case 00:30:17 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:30:43 Hi GregorR-L. 00:30:49 OMG 00:31:24 GregorR-L: i am not sure it is very wise to worship ehird 00:31:24 * GregorR-L gives Goodwill an A PLUS 00:31:38 wat 00:31:45 Oh My Godoerjan 00:31:52 ehird: he greeted you with OMG 00:32:02 Oh My GregorR-L 00:32:20 But can I warship you? :P 00:32:33 ehird and GregorR-L and oerjan, oh my 00:32:45 * ehird warship's your mom 00:32:48 .. 00:32:51 without the apostrophe 00:32:58 shit that's the first apostrophe mistake i've made in, like, years 00:33:03 * GregorR-L , oerjan and Deewiant should from a clique and call it GOD 00:33:10 beware, though, of the wereship 00:33:26 Aye 00:33:46 I should form a clique and call it E 00:35:01 "Man would i hate to be oedipus, just imagine your liver being eaten by a whale every morning because you fell into the water" 00:35:01 —Reddit 00:36:04 .................. 00:36:07 sadly, there is no E13 or E14 simple lie group 00:36:43 GregorR-L: I know right :D 00:37:13 FAIL mythological biology, or... 00:37:30 i smell skilled trolling 00:37:40 -!- FireyFly has quit ("Later"). 00:37:54 ehird: From now on "fell into the water" will be coy talk for "fucked yer mum" 00:37:59 oh wait, that was prometheus 00:38:19 http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/973fj/the_gamers_dream_girlfriend_pic/c0bnqyz 00:38:25 I think it's like 70 things in once 00:38:27 and an eagle. 00:38:38 GregorR-L: What does liver being eaten mean? 00:38:42 How does the whale effect it? 00:38:46 What about morning? 00:39:50 His liver metaphorically represents his honor for his father. 00:39:59 Which is destroyed (eaten) early in his life (in the morning) 00:40:19 The whale represents the fact that whales are cool. 00:40:22 * oerjan swats GregorR-L -----### 00:40:28 GregorR-L: But every morning? 00:40:32 (for the in the morning reference) 00:40:33 So, like, reincarnation? 00:47:33 GregorR-L: WELL? 00:48:02 a deep well, with a whale in it 00:51:49 I am now convinced that a system with Forth at the low-level and Lisp or Smalltalk at the high-level is the way to go. 00:52:42 i think the highlevel language should be called Multiply, for obvious reasons 01:01:43 oerjan: no, clearly it should be Fift or Fith 01:02:07 ("Fiff't" and… "Fith", respectively.) 01:02:59 ehird doesn't like my pun :( 01:03:06 I got it. 01:10:53 Some colours don't distinguish blue and green, right? 01:11:38 So can we have the red/grue colour system? :-) 01:11:51 grue/bleen is superior - you know that paradox? 01:12:12 its an attack on the validity of inductive reasoning 01:13:03 define the property 'grue' to mean 'green before the year 2050, blue afterwards' and 'bleen' to mean 'blue before 2050, green afterwards' - the problem is: 01:13:20 how can we say 'the sky is blue' is a better statement than 'the sky is bleen' ? 01:13:34 since all the observational evidence that confirms the first also confirms the second 01:13:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_term 01:14:44 mycroftiv: I was just using the term referenced in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinguishing_blue_from_green_in_language 01:14:59 [[Some colours don't distinguish blue and green, right?]] 01:15:04 s/colours/cultures/ ofc 01:15:12 "Thus, the three most basic colors are black, white, and red (in his 1924 book Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler described this as his justification for his choice of the colors for the Nazi flag, as he felt these three colors would most appeal to the masses)." 01:15:35 xD 01:15:38 doesnt research show that there is actually a set progression for the introduction of color words into languages? 01:15:45 mycroftiv: sort of. 01:15:57 mycroftiv: that's what the link refers to 01:16:21 *my 01:16:53 i pride myself on trying to talk out my ass based on pre existing knowledge without letting the wikipedia borg always outthink me - its a losing battle 01:17:15 you know, when i was a kid and we were talking about what sci-fi was real and what wasnt 01:17:43 hitler had particular foresight there, since the actual scientific study wasn't until 1969 01:17:50 i thought, based on what i knew about computers at the time - early 80s - that the single most bs thing in scifi was the computer on the Enterprise in star trek that could answer any question you asked perfectly 01:18:08 little did i know id be feeling obsoleted by such a device just a couple decades later 01:18:11 well that's mathematically impossible :-P 01:18:21 anyway wikipedia isn't the be-all end-all /shrug 01:18:42 it ISN'T? 01:18:51 oh yeah no doubt, sucks in a ton of ways - i used to spend hours and hours trying to work as an editor on the classical music articles 01:19:09 unfortunately wikipedia only works because of its truly sad editor base 01:19:17 I depress myself just looking at the non-article pages 01:19:26 i also was part of a horrible, horrible long running fight to save the 'einstein' wikipedia page from long term attack by these people who felt like einstein stole it all from henri poincare - which is actually a complex issue 01:19:36 and made for a truly amazing struggle that was like 2 years long 01:20:23 wikipedia's, in general, a bunch of idiotic naive people who are all despicably sociopathic: ridiculous abundances of community "friendship" with unbelievable cliques, cabals and the like; incredibly focused on bureaucracy; and truly spiteful and hateful to anyone they oppose 01:20:24 it saddens me 01:20:56 yeah i certainly couldnt deal with the social aspect of the editing universe, i just tried to work purely on content 01:20:56 oh, and they're all utterly obsessed with wikipedia 01:21:06 i've never seen a significant editor who has a life and doesn't dedicate so much time to it 01:21:17 i still clean up pages as seems needed, but i often do it anon rather than logging into my editor account 01:21:19 it's an utter shame that without these awful people, wikipedia wouldn't really work 01:24:06 actually, i think wikipedia is amazingly successful in that regard - when you think about the human energy that pre-wikipedia would have gone into purely personal obsessiveness, that now can be devoted to making sure that all fancruft in a given area is rigidly thought-policed for series continuity failures, its amazing 01:24:47 true 01:24:52 still a bit depressing though 01:26:03 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Connection timed out). 01:28:45 Doo doo doo, Forth is fun, doo doo doo, Smalltalk is fun. It's nice to see a plan come together. …although nicer to see it implemented, which would be very unlike me. 01:34:03 but then you would be able to cackle maniackally! 01:35:27 hm, maniack would be a nice term for a mad scientist, analogous to magick 01:39:19 Maniack's Almanack of Magick 01:40:08 "Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science" 01:59:47 -!- ehird has quit. 02:06:15 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 02:13:52 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:15:33 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:29:44 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:35:37 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 02:41:57 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:20:48 OCZ is selling 1TB SSDs... 03:20:48 Jeeze, that's crazy. 03:20:52 $2,200 crazy. 03:21:12 Oh, *now* I'm impressed. 03:21:17 That's 1TiB. 03:21:34 That's right. Hard drive manufacturer using binary units. Fuck yeah. 04:09:10 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:26:28 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 05:02:59 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 05:26:14 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:29:59 -!- augur has joined. 06:22:59 -!- olsner has joined. 06:50:53 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:59:55 -!- Halph has joined. 07:00:09 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:00:11 -!- Halph has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:02:36 -!- coppro has joined. 07:25:18 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:57:15 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:05:12 -!- FireFly has joined. 08:12:30 anyone who wants to leave their mind a smoking crater of knowledge can check: 08:12:34 http://arxiv.org/abs/0903.0340 08:40:00 is that the self-published papers site? 08:40:40 whoa, category theory in quantum physics 08:40:53 now surely I've seen everything 08:42:09 very respected researcher, this is a major summary paper of the state of his thinking on some amazing cross-disciplinary connections 08:43:07 for computer oriented people, the later section of the paper is obviously going to be 'home turf' but the whole point is the extensive and formally valid 'mapping between mappings of mappings' 08:45:07 how conceptual/abstract is the mapping? 08:45:20 hm, if it is actually formally valid... 08:45:36 well, since its category theory in the first place, its very very abstract - but it is also serious formal mathematics, not at all somebody making up bs 08:46:24 I mean abstract more in a philosophical way.. but if you say there's no BS :P 08:47:12 well the goal of the paper is definitely philosophical, to show the deep structural correspondences between different fields, but the mechanism is a careful formal investigation of the actual mathematical content of the disciplines 08:48:34 the author, john baez, has one of the best websites that has ever been on the internet, 'this week's finds in mathematical physics' which was a 'blog' before anybody invented that ugly word - started on january 19 1993, how about that! 09:01:21 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 09:11:32 -!- Judofyr has joined. 09:14:11 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:20:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 09:24:10 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:24:53 -!- immibis has joined. 09:26:32 -!- coppro has joined. 09:27:20 -!- Pthing has joined. 09:39:48 -!- Judofyr has joined. 09:42:15 -!- oklopil has joined. 10:00:12 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:01:15 -!- augur has joined. 10:02:51 http://normish.org/home/immibis/jsrotate/ 10:04:24 Heikki Kallasjoki's Master's thesis presentation 11.8 10:04:41 I'll be there and ask tricky questions 10:04:57 Arrr. 10:05:49 There's also Teemu Ruokolainen's (another guy in the speech group) similar presentation there in ten minutes; I'm about to go there to do some reconnaissance to see what them things are like. 10:06:45 I've been to a few; the topic doesn't interest me that much so I wasn't planning on bothering with that one 10:07:29 -!- immibis has quit ("If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you"). 10:19:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:26:52 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 10:41:22 cool i'm so coming 10:53:57 Heh, there was pretty much just the speech group people in that one, plus I guess some others involved in the two EU-funded projects it was related to. 10:54:32 The A328 room is not that big (fits maybe a dozen people comfortably) so don't start any mass movements, now. 10:55:11 :( 10:56:34 I think I'm going to just keep my SPECOM'09 conference presentation again, to save some preparation time. Maybe slightly altered. 10:58:51 you can't reuse a presentation, that's like having two of the same pokemon in a ball 10:59:20 I don't think I know what that means. Does it mean they start procreating in there? 11:00:05 i actually have no idea, it started with like having these packs of pokemon cards, what if someone gets a pokemon they already have, then i just mixed it up a bit 11:00:26 fits pretty perfectly imo 11:00:50 if someone already heard it, they'll probably laugh at you and throw a shoe 11:01:43 (kinda like you throw pokeballs?) 11:01:53 Mikko's probably going to be there, and he's heard it already. It's probably harder to do shoe-avoidance in a small room, even. 11:03:11 Anyway, there's that famous mathematician joke with the "reduce to a problem that's already solved" theme; I'm just applying that to the presentation. 11:03:35 well i guess that makes sense 11:35:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it"). 12:09:13 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:09:13 -!- Slereah_ has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:09:13 -!- Xiin has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:09:14 -!- olsner has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:09:14 -!- Dewio has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:09:14 -!- Robdgreat has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:09:15 -!- randomity has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:09:15 -!- pikhq has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 12:09:15 -!- cmeme has quit (bartol.freenode.net 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14:29:15 -!- nescience has joined. 14:29:15 -!- rodgort has joined. 14:29:15 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:29:15 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:29:15 -!- fizzie has joined. 14:29:15 -!- AnMaster has joined. 14:42:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:42:08 -!- evenant has joined. 14:45:45 -!- nescience has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:13:42 -!- edwardk has joined. 15:14:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:15:18 ha 15:15:30 my regexp based C++ code analyzer is done :D 15:18:12 congrats 15:32:23 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:32:26 -!- Sgeo has joined. 15:47:05 -!- jix_ has quit ("Lost terminal"). 15:52:12 Shame that it probably fails. 15:52:22 (irregular syntax and all that jazz 15:57:58 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 16:01:12 nooga: what can it analyze? 16:01:29 doh 16:10:20 pikhq: i doubt it fails if it just does comments, because c++ has a fairly simple lexing 16:11:22 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:12:34 Ah. Yeah, that'd help a lot. 16:14:57 -!- ehird_ has joined. 16:23:17 Hey, what is edwardk doing here 16:23:30 Planning on making an esolang based on category-extras? :-P 16:23:49 (Or did you decide that it counts as an esolang as-is) 16:24:36 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:24:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:26:19 Deewiant: actually thats kind of what kata is ;) 16:26:49 Deewiant: a little less esoteric than the meat and potatos of this community though ;) 16:28:03 hmm... yet another person here I don't recognise, this channel seems to be expanding massively atm 16:28:09 Does Kata have anything online? A quick google only gives a few mentions 16:28:17 ais523: i wander in every few months 16:28:54 Deewiant: not yet, you can get some glimmers from the hac phi photos which generally have lots of kata scribbled on the walls, but hrmm. i have an old syntax fragment here somewhere 16:29:17 deewiant: http://comonad.com/Category.ks-old -- read class as an ML module signature 16:29:21 gotta run 16:30:17 edwardk's been here a few times 16:31:04 Maybe I would if I knew any ML 16:31:12 Looks amusing enough 16:31:19 unfortunately no one was fluent enough in category theory to understand him 16:31:56 http://yorgeys.smugmug.com/gallery/9039600_Ra9wn/2/601548443_XZNvE#601548455_HVNez-A-LB appears to have some Kata too, yes 16:46:26 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:46:36 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 17:05:13 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:10:39 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:19:40 wtf 17:19:43 I haven't said anything all day 17:19:44 sez clog 17:19:47 damn netsplits 17:20:52 so anyway 17:20:54 laptops suck 17:20:56 discuss 17:24:31 how so? 17:24:47 i don't use anything else, but the bigger ones are kinda annoying to carry around 17:28:08 18:46 CESSMASTER has joined #ESOTERIC <<< does the server send the capitalization you use when you join? 8| 17:28:22 (19:04 Asztal has joined #esoteric) 17:36:07 but without laptops I will never have a LAN party on a train 17:37:16 wellllllllll 17:37:22 they suck because there isn't one that's good for me :P 18:12:01 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:15:32 * pikhq sticks the insane uberbuild in a laptop case 18:15:48 (ignore the inexplicable bending of spacetime involved, please) 18:17:07 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 18:18:28 pikhq: xD 18:18:31 any context? 18:18:55 ehird_: Just the current one. 18:19:03 Ah. :P 18:19:39 pikhq: but how long does the battery last and how heavy is it?! 18:19:52 back 18:20:04 ehird_: Approximately 5 minutes, and it weighs a few hundred pounds.k 18:20:15 pikhq: 5 minutes? That must be a looooot of batteries. 18:20:35 ehird_: Well, it's an uberbuild. Surely you wouldn't skimp on the UPS? 18:20:47 For a laptop. Yes. Yes I would :P 18:21:16 What, you don't have titanium legs? 18:21:22 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Client Quit). 18:39:13 http://www.erectuswalksamongst.us/ 18:39:58 I could've sworn Homo erectus went extinct quite a while ago. 18:40:19 (unless you count Homo floriensus as a subspecies of erectus)) 18:48:07 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:56:21 "1. Race does not exist - a black person is just a white person with a suntan and wooly hair." 18:56:42 ... 18:56:57 What the fnuck? 19:10:06 I no rite 19:10:18 Deewiant: so wtf is that site about 19:11:21 seems to be pro eugenics, lawl 19:12:32 Context: 19:12:33 2009-08-04 20:37:55 ( Chimpbama) If you recognize that Negroes carry mostly Homo Erectus traits ( http://www.erectuswalksamongst.us ) while all other races evolved fully into humans, you will love Chimpout.com! WE ARE NOT WHITE SUPREMACISTS, rather NEGRO INFERIORISTS! 19:12:37 We at Chimpout.com love the rainbow diversity of humanity and welcome Asians, non-Negroid Hispanics, Semites, Indians, Gays, Whites, Turkics, etc. After all, I am Mexican. Join in the epic battle of hu 19:12:39 2009-08-04 20:37:55 ( Chimpbama) man vs NIIIIGGGGER at Chimpout Forums! http://www.chimpout.com/forum 19:14:52 Haha, wow. 19:15:05 Human vs nigger! 19:15:32 Deewiant: what channel's that from :D 19:15:32 Ah, Homo sapiens stultus. 19:15:35 ehird_: #haskell 19:15:39 awesome 19:15:41 Homo sapiens niggerus. 19:15:57 Deewiant: did he just say that and run or was he kicked? 19:16:03 He got k-lined 19:16:17 He had a chance to say it twice before that 19:17:10 s/\/the/ 19:17:10 "I've been "debating" a nigger on youtube who thinks he "be an Izraelite an' sheyit". I've been kicking this nigger's ass throughout the debate (yet in typical nigger fashion, he thinks he's winning lol)" 19:17:10 Nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger. Nigger, nigger! Nigger. 19:17:10 It's a whole new language.\ 19:17:11 s/\\$// 19:17:36 "Niggers don't have skin, they have hide because they run around the jungle as naked savage apes." 19:18:26 [[You can trot out all the "magic niggers" such as Bill Cosby and Thomas Sowell all you want. They are a rare, rare kind that you niggers ostracized for telling "da troof" about your piece of shit coon-munity.]] 19:18:27 … 19:18:33 Magic niggers. Coon-munity. 19:18:33 It's so cheesy! 19:18:59 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:19:24 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:19:40 "How does a nigger feel knowing that they are the same color as thier shit?" 19:19:40 Guess this guy doesn't like the Zune. 19:25:20 OK, it's transcended hilarity and entered 19:25:21 [["I don't hate niggers. I just think everyone should own one."- My mom]] 19:25:22 depressing. 19:26:17 That is so very depressing. 19:36:02 http://play.markharpur.com/img/logicfail.JPG 19:39:19 I don't quite get what's going on 19:39:57 on a serious note, i think the resurgence of racism as a fashionable intellectual stance proves that the attempt by well-meaning people to censor and regulate speech had totally perverse consequences 19:40:37 the fact is, that if you tell kids that some words are not to be said, that some ideas arent allowed to be considered, you give those ideas power and status and appeal 19:40:48 that's fucking obvious though 19:40:52 not to a lot of people 19:40:55 well okay 19:40:59 but you're not talking to such people :P 19:41:04 thats true ;) 19:41:11 ehird_: That's one hell of a screenshot, especially since you could just link to the page :-P 19:41:37 not mine 19:41:45 Your paste 19:42:18 Your mom 19:42:46 -!- coppro has quit (Connection timed out). 19:42:50 i would definitely like to own a slave, i don't care about color though. 19:43:20 oklopil: as a practical matter, dont worry, you still can, even though such arrangements arent usually called that any more 19:43:27 :P 19:44:19 i would probably prefer a consenting slave, so that would be a better way to do it anyway 19:44:27 assuming you're talking about paying them 19:44:35 you might also be talking about getting a gf 19:45:14 well, i was making a vague reference to several things - the most direct reference being the people who get illegal immigrant servants and then terrorize them into slaver with threats of deportation, etc - i could google for some links, there was a notable case recently 19:45:47 that doesn't sound like something that happens much in finland, then again i wouldn't know if it did. 19:46:35 it happens to some extent (i believe) based on most places that have a pool of illegal immigrant labor 19:46:35 and i can't really imagine myself threatening anyone 19:47:52 -!- edwardk has left (?). 19:49:23 actually i'm not sure i'd want a slave, i'd probably just prefer having enough money so i could eat out more often. 19:49:31 -> less dishes 19:50:00 just eat magic 19:50:40 oklopil: A "consenting slave" would be either a form of BDSM or an emlpoyee. ;) 19:51:12 -!- Azstal has joined. 19:51:48 actually the idea that money can replace slavery is actually morally sound and is why the liberal secular humanists need to get their heads out of their butts and start thinking intelligently about complex evolutionary dynamic systems rather than mindlessly thinking money == bad 19:52:07 mycroftiv: ... There's people who think money == bad? 19:52:26 pikhq: lots of them, and i talk like those people a lot of the time through sloppy language 19:52:43 I always thought that the reasoning was that money implies power, and power is often abused. 19:52:49 http://pygbot.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/pygbot/trunk/pyGBot/Plugins/games/Mafia.py?view=markup#l_799 19:52:59 I guess that would be the reasoning of *sane* liberal secular humanists. 19:53:07 yes - but a lot of people are very sloppy about making that connection clear, and the association 'money is bad' happens rather than a real analysis of power and self interest 19:54:27 Hmm. 19:57:55 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:01:22 mycroftiv: I'm a liberal secular humanist :P 20:01:29 …though I've never said money is bad. 20:03:10 doesn't humanist usually imply secular 20:03:16 ehird_: im a liberal secular humanist too! thats why i want us to stop talking foolishness 20:03:21 But I don't! 20:03:23 oklopil: Shush you. 20:03:44 oklopil: often, but not necessarily - for instance, you could think gods exist, but they arent important 20:04:14 mycroftiv: Anyway, I don't think non-capitalist systems should be rejected outright, though I haven't seen one that works yet. 20:04:39 (And there are plenty of capitalist systems that should be thrown out: completely "free" markets, for instance.) 20:05:00 if it doesn't work, someone will start a business that makes it work! 20:05:17 ehird_: oh, im in favor of getting rid of 'capitalism' as it currently exists completely, in favor of an economy based on our best possible scientific model of processes on earth 20:05:18 Free market capitalism works because people always buy the better product! 20:05:48 -!- impomatic has joined. 20:05:56 fundamentally, capitalism is totally broken because the information flows that it is based on are horribly incomplete 20:06:11 by information flows you mean what exactly? 20:06:13 Hi :-) 20:06:15 oh dear 20:06:17 hi impie 20:06:18 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 20:06:24 hello cessie 20:06:24 i live in a town with what used to be 4 beautiful lakes - it now has 4 totally disgusting and usable lakes due to fertilizer runoff and pollution 20:06:48 we need a market system based on quantum darwinism 20:06:55 this happens because the information about and 'value' represented by the lakes doesnt really interact with the capital economy system - that important information is 'missing' 20:06:58 only perfect transactions get carried towards through the future and the rest are sent to backwater universes 20:07:00 your radical ideas on information technology as Salvation have occurred to others and been found wanting 20:07:05 not wanting to pollute the earth is a bit too conservative for my taste 20:07:17 oklopil: you're crazy <3 20:07:37 Pthing: i dont support IT as salvation at all, in fact I think the use of IT in computerized trading may literally destroy the human race through unintended consequences 20:07:50 ehird_: oh, im in favor of getting rid of 'capitalism' as it currently exists completely, in favor of an economy based on our best possible scientific model of processes on earth 20:07:51 this part 20:07:52 here 20:08:09 Pthing, he never said IT 20:08:12 ehird_: i love how you've stopped preaching to me, and just accepted no sense can enter my head 20:08:16 :D 20:08:19 oklopil: i feel a lot better now :D 20:08:20 Pthing: that simply means that we can no longer ignore the fundamental laws of science and the basic physical realities of our condition on earth 20:08:20 well gosh what does he possibly mean 20:08:42 goodness, you mean quantum field politics 20:08:55 mycroftiv vs Pthing; I'll come back in 5 hours 20:09:11 Pthing: no, not really - why are you trying to ridicule a concept that i certainly havent even stated fully or explicitly? 20:09:27 because it is worth ridiculing every time somebody brings it up 20:09:36 it's a trap a lot of people fall into 20:09:38 mycroftiv: can you just answer me one thing, as a semi-unbiased observer 20:09:41 "brings it up" - you are totally projecting onto me beliefs that i dont have 20:09:47 mycroftiv: does your market system depend on quantum darwinism 20:10:10 mycroftiv, it's more a matter of alarm bells 20:10:15 ehird_: zurek's model of how quantum mechanical information is transmitted is incredibly important, but i doubt that it has any direct implications for human-level economics, no 20:10:26 darn 20:10:27 "economy based on * scienc*" 20:10:32 * scienc* 20:10:40 actually make it scien* 20:10:57 who cares about irl economies 20:10:58 Scientology? 20:11:02 Pthing: i dont understand the alternative - an economy based on ignorance? 20:11:05 those are so unpure and boring 20:11:08 that's what they all are 20:11:10 *impure 20:11:13 an economy based on GHOSTS 20:11:17 Anything else is a religious hope 20:11:33 strange definition of religious 20:11:37 are you using it to mean "things i disagree with" 20:11:38 which is why I consider it more salvation from economics, rather than an actual economic system 20:11:48 Pthing: sorry, i cant tell what you are responding to exactly - somehow are you saying economics is inherently based on ignorance, and trying to improve the quality of information available in our economic system is religion? 20:11:49 No, in a soteriological sense! 20:12:14 okokokokokokokoko 20:12:15 Improving the quality, sure, but that doesn't mean destroying it and rebuilding it on scientific bases will achieve that 20:12:21 or, indeed, that it cannot be achieved any other way 20:12:35 except from setting the whole world on fire and bringing in New Rational Economics 20:12:49 i'll go wash the dishes. that's how impure and boring economy talk is! -> 20:13:01 Pthing: im just looking at real-world problems - namely the fact that i have been economically impoverished by the loss of value caused by the destruction of the lakes in my town 20:13:19 okay so what's the real-world solution 20:13:25 that happened because the value represented by the lakes - a real thing even to the most conservative free marketeer - that value was not integrated into the economic activites that took place 20:13:41 human beings dump fertilizer and crap on their lawns, make golf courses - and those create real costs, and loss of wealth 20:13:52 im saying we need to get MORE and BETTER information into the system 20:13:53 yes, yes. but what's the real-world solution 20:14:08 Pthing: you seem obsessed with the real world 20:14:08 Pthing: set the world on fire and bring in New Rational Economics! 20:14:11 may i point you to this topic 20:14:14 mycroftiv, a good idea! 20:14:43 Pthing: anyway, i do have specific ideas for how to bring more information flow into our economic system, but i dunno if anyone really wants any more monologue from me 20:14:51 well I do so 20:15:25 ok, sure :) i 100% agree that this is an incredibly hard topic and that there is no silver bullet, and people who think that the world sucks just because mean people are mean, are clueless 20:15:49 however i dont think that means we cant make huge improvements to the mechanisms of decision making and resource allocation 20:15:59 liiiike 20:16:09 Pthing: sorry man this takes a bit for me to try to establish the concepts 20:16:20 if you are expect a 1 sentence solution, i dont have that 20:16:37 well no, the people with one sentence solution are the Worst People 20:16:45 so often it just boils down to like 20:16:52 The Computer Will Tell Everyone What To Do. 20:16:57 which is very sad to see 20:16:57 i've always wanted an oppertunity to say a pretentious comment, 20:16:58 however, i do know that the basis of our existence is that we are fragile clumps of carbon compounds existing in a very delicate equilibrium on a single planet, and all the evidence indicates that this is only a 'semistable' equilibrium 20:17:13 *opportunity 20:17:14 an 20:17:14 d 20:17:18 s/\nd/d/ 20:17:21 everyone will jump to rebut it 20:17:22 and I'll sit here 20:17:24 being pretentious 20:17:26 Pthing: no, i am absolutely opposed to the idea of computer-run economies, and i think high speed financial comptuerized trading is highly destructive of a sane economic principles 20:17:27 having successfully trollaxed 20:17:30 with that in mind 20:17:42 "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." 20:17:45 —Albert Einstein 20:18:07 well man, that's not really the same thing 20:18:19 i think the chain of reasoning that defines 'value' as 'that which a living being needs to sustain its life, and that which it subjectively chooses to pursue' is sensible as a starting place 20:18:21 (mycroftiv: btw you realise that you cannot stop people using computers to do it?) 20:18:31 the computers applied to high finance just make it easier for the bankers to make their pretend dollars 20:18:39 they did it fine plenty of times in the past without them 20:18:55 ehird_: i cant stop almost any of the bad things that happen in the world, i can just try to do what i can in the world i am in connection with 20:19:10 Pthing: "pretend" dollars? 20:19:17 Yes, pretend dollars. 20:19:29 so anyway - its clear that our most important stock of 'value' is the planet earth we live on - if it goes away, we all get REAL POOR REAL FAST 20:20:01 Pthing: right guess they're like fake dollars 20:20:03 monopoly money. 20:20:17 mycroftiv: you are overlooking the possibility of space colonisation! 20:20:24 heaven forbid 20:20:27 so purely for 100% rational self-interested free-market reasons, it makes sense for people to construct a system of economic values that includes metrics based on the planet earth, and try to put as much information as possible from thsoe realities into the system 20:20:40 ehird_: not at all - im just discouraged about its practicality based on the current scientific research and state of the art technologies 20:20:41 ehird_: How possible do you think it is that it's already happened? 20:20:41 except when it doesn't 20:20:50 (I.e. it hasn't yet so it doesn't count.) 20:21:14 ehird_: there was a time when i thought space travel and exploration meant we didnt need to worry too much about the planet, but a careful study of the facts has convinced me im totally wrong about that 20:21:24 Deewiant! Come quick! 20:21:26 or i *was* totally wrong 20:21:26 What is it John? 20:21:33 I've found a way to cure ails. 20:21:40 That's impossible John, only praying can cure ailments. 20:21:45 Erm 20:21:46 It's not! It's worked every time! 20:21:46 wat 20:21:51 Whatever. 20:21:53 THREE DAYS EARLIER 20:22:06 But what about the prospect of this… "medicine"? 20:22:13 How possible do you think it is that it's already happened? 20:22:17 this is the worst parable ever 20:22:22 Pthing: My analogies are Deewiant-quality. 20:22:26 ehird_: Non sequitur 20:22:36 If it does happen 3 days from now, fine 20:22:39 Deewiant: Turn your head and squint your eyes a little. 20:22:42 But given that it hasn't happened 20:22:48 And that it's not very likely that it's going to happen 20:22:53 (In 3 days) 20:22:53 Pthing: have i convinced you yet that i am a serious student of economics and social systems and science and i am legitimately trying to address difficult issues, not just spewing ideological dogma/doctrine i read somewhere else? 20:23:06 Deewiant: That's what you think. 20:23:08 mycroftiv, oh sure, the alarm bells are disabled 20:23:08 It's not worth incorporating it into current plans 20:23:15 Deewiant: I have a fucking space rocket. 20:23:21 ehird_: Well sure, that's why I asked you about what you think :-P 20:23:42 ( Deewiant) ehird_: How possible do ***you*** think it is that it's already happened? 20:23:46 (Emphasis added) 20:24:01 Deewiant: Your sentence rivals "Has anyone ever been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?" in confusability. :P 20:24:04 So if you have a space rocket, then fine 20:24:06 I just disagree that you can really get it into people's self-interest that they need to become greens 20:24:10 Pthing: thanks very much. i also think its possible to evolve to an economic system that makes use of more and better information without actually having to blow the world up 20:24:37 Without blowing up a little of the world, anyway 20:24:43 ehird_: I just wanted to use "possible" since you used "possibility" 20:24:46 Pthing: well, its a very deep issue. i mean, if you believe that there is a God who takes care of the world for us and we dont have to, obviously you dont go along with any of this. 20:24:55 No, I do not believe that. 20:25:13 If you disagree with me, you're religious. 20:25:18 So I couldn't say "How likely do you think that it's already happened" 20:25:26 Which I guess doesn't help much, looking at it now 20:25:30 so i usually boil down all economics and politics to 'we have to persuade people to be secular in their decision making at least, and even if people want to cling to religious belief, they cant make it the basis of societal decision making and expect to prosper" 20:25:33 So meh 20:25:40 Ah. 20:25:42 This. 20:25:44 Is a problem. 20:26:07 well, i see it as the base problem - i think most people - even most 'secular' people - dont actually accept or understand the idea of rationalism and the scientific method 20:26:20 And well they shouldn't. 20:26:29 i know a lot of people who 'believe in science' like its a fucking religion, and think something is 100% true 'because science says so' and dont understand about models and revision of theories, etc 20:26:44 Even scientists don't. 20:27:21 wat? 20:27:23 Do you sincerely look at the history of science and think "There goes an enlightened portion of the human race, rational and aware of the scientific method" 20:27:40 whoa, believing in the scientific method doesnt mean believing scientists are any different than any other human beings 20:27:51 Oh sure 20:27:52 Einstein just threw rocks at a wall and published it. 20:27:53 Trufax. 20:27:56 I'm not saying that. 20:27:59 I'm just saying 20:28:07 you say the problem is that most people *aren't* like this 20:28:16 Now this is, to me, quite a religious sentiment. 20:28:24 The idea of producing a code too rigorous for anyone to follow. 20:28:48 It's not moral, so unlike the ethical codes of religion, when holy men fail to follow it, people do not shout at them and call them hypocrites 20:29:09 But it is no more achievable for all that. 20:29:10 The scientific method is impossible to follow because I said so, therefore science = religion. 20:29:11 ? 20:29:16 actually , i think the idea of holding your ideas as theories, and trying to test and revise them vs. the evidence - i think that *is* a moral issue 20:29:16 No. 20:29:21 mycroftiv, yes! 20:29:25 which is what makes it so exciting 20:29:32 You *make* it a moral issue 20:29:45 And if you then, as is quite reasonable, apply it backwards 20:29:51 What does this make *everyone*? 20:30:10 i dont see myself as advocating any impossible standard - if you can persuade billions of people of the ideas of religion, surely the idea 'keep your eyes open, act on the best information you have, always try to learn more and revise those ideas' is not totally hopeless 20:30:31 I don't think that's a terribly good comparison 20:30:42 You group "religion" together as though you can even do that 20:31:12 -!- ehird_ has left (?). 20:31:17 -!- ehird_ has joined. 20:31:17 oops 20:31:18 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 20:31:24 people use abstractions and generalizations constantly - theres no such thing as a 'human', theres just an organized lump of carbon doing stuff, the idea of a 'human' is still a generalization/abstraction that isnt '100% true' 20:31:38 Sure, but so what 20:31:51 I say the problem is twofold 20:32:26 a) Your conception of "religion" is too high-level, especially if you put it into parallel with something you call "the scientific method" 20:32:41 a') especially when you ascribe an *ethical* quality to it 20:32:43 im speaking casually, i happen to be a religous guy myself on the level of symbols and rituals 20:32:55 This is one of the most absurdly meta discussions regarding religion I've seen in quite some time. 20:33:26 b) You think that the application of the scientific method *to* human society will come out of the individuals following it. 20:33:48 b') The group of people who have used the scientific method most -- scientists -- show no real sign of this, though 20:34:15 Pthing: i think you are wrong in those assertions. 1st, the evidence shows that people DO bring their politics into line with their personal beliefs. need i point at theocratic societies? 20:34:42 What is that supposed to follow, because I'm afraid I don't. 20:34:44 and secondly, scientists are no saints, the evidence shows that clearly - but neither do i see many scientists who are active advocates of the most negative and damaging ideas 20:34:53 Pthing: your statement 'b' 20:35:02 Oh, I see! 20:35:07 Sure, but that's the thing. 20:35:09 Emergence 20:35:24 You could not derive Iran from first principles and the Koran 20:36:04 neither do i think first principles or scientific evidence are sufficient to structure a society 20:36:11 What else, then 20:36:18 i do not deny/denigrate the role of free human choice and emotion and 'whatever the hell we want to do' 20:36:57 Also, it's a gross caricature to consider that everyone living in a theocracy is very similar 20:37:05 im just saying: currently, the organization of power and the principles our society is based on are still *mostly* religious in origin, i think - partly replaced now with a practical system of capital economy that is useful, but still missing a lot of information flows 20:37:18 [20:32] mycroftiv: im speaking casually, i happen to be a religous guy myself on the level of symbols and rituals 20:37:18 so much for secular huh 20:37:19 You use the word "religion" again 20:37:41 but I'm still not sure what you mean by it 20:38:05 Pthing: i cant go out on the street naked. there is a law calling that 'indecent exposure.' the existence of that law is obviously due to religious taboos from my society./ 20:38:15 -!- impomatic has left (?). 20:38:19 Obviously? :| 20:38:21 this is a simple example, but it seems pretty clear to me 20:38:28 lol 20:38:30 Pthing: yes! the historical record on this is far from obscure 20:38:36 mycroftiv is pissed because he can't show off his genitals :D 20:38:43 This really 20:38:47 just illustrates my point 20:38:47 ehird: they are beautiful and perfect, and squirrels worship them 20:38:52 that you can't blame "religion" 20:38:55 mycroftiv: "Squirrels" 20:39:10 Because here it seems to me you are ascribing all norms you don't care for as being due to "religion" 20:39:42 Pthing: um, not at all - but laws that are made to preserve 'morality' are so clearly religious in origin, as a clear matter of historical fact, that im confused what you are claiming 20:39:59 What is clear about it? 20:40:30 that a huge amount of law and societal structure created in the past, and still being created today, is motivated by individuals attempting to bring the world into accordance with their religious beliefs 20:40:33 mycroftiv: do you accept that someone can be pro-indecent-exposure-laws without being religious? 20:40:37 if not, you're an idiot. 20:40:41 ehird: of course 20:40:44 good 20:41:02 mycroftiv, that sentence works exactly the same if you remove the word "religious" from it 20:41:06 so why do you put it in? 20:41:33 Pthing: because the people who 'made the laws' put the word in there themselves, and its very important to them! 20:41:53 are you denying that there are still millions of people saying "we need to make laws to enforce the bible/koran/whatever' ?? 20:41:53 put the word in? 20:42:25 No, I am not denying that, I am just confused at the, well, the single minded focus you put on this. 20:42:25 do i need to link to some websites saying "we need to make this illegal/keep this illegal/ because of religious text A/B/C ?' 20:42:29 "religious beliefs" is a subset of "beliefs" 20:42:32 Yes 20:42:59 It is not easy - I'd say impossible, to talk about beliefs that are clearly *not* religious 20:43:07 likewise, purely "religious" ideas 20:43:13 It's just not a good term 20:43:14 Pthing: oh i absolutely agree - as a amtter of ontology, i think all knowledge is 'one' 20:43:17 Then 20:43:20 i dunno, it's possible to believe that a certain scientific theory will turn out to be correct 20:43:22 why do you *behave* like it isn't? 20:43:24 ok, fine, i am perfectly happy to eliminate the term 'religion' from my discoures 20:43:33 okay, so where were we 20:43:34 thinking rationally and coming to a conclusion being impossible since there isn't any evidence either way 20:43:38 how would you rephrase: 20:43:39 i could state *everything* i just said in equivalent form without focusing on that word or tem at all 20:43:42 yet i wouldn't call these hypotheses religious. 20:43:52 i dont see myself as advocating any impossible standard - if you can persuade billions of people of the ideas of religion, surely the idea 'keep your eyes open, act on the best information you have, always try to learn more and revise those ideas' is not totally hopeless 20:44:01 Pthing: ok, happy to restate 20:44:04 please do so! 20:44:15 Pthing: no? 20:44:23 ehird, yes! 20:44:33 Pthing: Yes what? 20:44:35 Pthing: i dont see myself as advocating any impossible standard - if you can persuade billions of people of the truth of statements that contradict their own sensory experience, surely the idea... 20:44:38 ehird: No! 20:44:43 Deewiant: MAYBE! 20:44:49 ehird: Nothing 20:44:51 mycroftiv: there's a difference 20:44:56 ehird, i just wanted to make the lines the same length 20:45:01 mycroftiv: If you're told how the world works, you don't have to think. 20:45:08 mycroftiv, can you? 20:45:10 Telling them to be scientific doesn't work. They have to collate evidence. 20:45:11 Think. 20:45:12 Make a conclusion. 20:45:18 That's not nearly dogmatic enough to instill in that way. 20:45:57 Pthing: if you want i could be picking on 'superstition and the occult' - people who believe in esp, flying saucers, etc - instead of the 'religious' - or i could use lots of other terms 20:46:07 im really sorry if something that isnt my central point - religion - seemed like it. 20:46:25 that doesn't sound like a very good argument if you can replace it so glibly 20:46:58 Since if you're trying to show me that your position has *at least parity* with this other position 20:47:00 Pthing: i was using 'religion' as an easy antonym to the idea of progressively revising your ideas on the basis of experience 20:47:05 It's worth noting that #esoteric has never changed someone's mind on anything non-trivial. 20:47:08 Very lazy 20:47:14 And poorly founded 20:47:30 Pthing: sorry, it takes an encyclopedia to make even the statement 'water is wet' well founded by your standards 20:47:53 language is inherently imprecise - im doing the best i can to communicate 20:48:05 If I can persuade a billion people that Our Lady was assumed bodily into heaven, then surely I can persuade them to believe I can fly to Mars and back 20:48:24 even better, persuade them that they *can* fly 20:48:28 thats very plausible, whip up a few miracles, sure 20:48:37 No, because miracles don't work like that. 20:48:38 and the transcendal meditation people think indeed that they can fly! 20:48:42 Sure!" 20:48:48 What I said is a good argument 20:48:50 with one problem 20:48:56 i dont even understand what you are arguing against now, other than simply trying to contradict anything i say 20:48:59 You might be able to convince that many people they can fly 20:49:03 But will it make them fly? 20:49:07 mycroftiv: Pavitra goes to that transcendental meditation "university" thing, iirc. 20:49:12 Second point! 20:49:14 Pthing: have you seen the video? 20:49:17 they hop around on their butts 20:49:20 while dramatic music plays 20:49:22 it's hilarious 20:49:28 You're using "religion" as the Big Thing that Makes Things Possible here 20:49:32 Pthing: are you saying that even if you can convince people to 'try' to be rational, they will fail? thats a very good point, if thats what you are making 20:49:45 It's part of it 20:49:47 but listen 20:49:57 now, religion, rather than just being a helpful variable for your arguments 20:49:58 Pthing: i said im happy to abandont the word 'religion' and switch to the term 'absence of belief in rational methods of observation and extrapolation/deduction' 20:50:06 Yes well listen 20:50:25 People who don't... what whole noun phrase 20:50:30 aren't doing it just to be perverse 20:50:31 let's all shut up and watch some people hop around on their butts 20:50:32 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3825056345770693923 20:50:48 kay? 20:50:50 it looks fun 20:51:24 and YOU TOO can fly with a personal mantra for $2,000! 20:51:28 contact your local guru! 20:51:31 People *before* you have tried to instill ethical systems into people 20:52:39 One of the things that is grouped into religion is the whole idea of helping people to become better people 20:53:17 Now, actually getting people to sit down, actually sit down and think about what they have done that is bad is only a *part* of it 20:53:26 But all the good religions have some form of it 20:53:30 this is pointless gaiz 20:53:41 it is one of the tragic confusions that people assume that morality is equivalent and can only be found in a non-rational belief system 20:53:44 This is your greater information deal 20:54:08 And it works, the reason why it comes up everywhere is because it works 20:54:15 but it's not the only thing, boy isn't it 20:54:43 Pthing: and as a matter of fact, if i seem like i talk like some kind of 'opponent' of religion, that is simply me trying to situation my discourse somewhere - as it happens, i also have long essays on hindiusm, christianity, and what the ideas of sin and salvation mean 20:54:44 shut the fuck up guys! 20:54:48 Think about it, why do these people even have to sit down and think about their sins -- well, it's because they already done them, and the hope is that they won't be as bad in the future 20:54:50 you've said like 10 things 50 times 20:55:05 mycroftiv, good, then you're familiar with it 20:55:14 i hate you both. 20:55:35 The problem is that it is, as ehird says, this is not a new idea 20:55:42 when did i say that 20:55:48 you've said like 10 things 50 times 20:55:52 THEREFORE NOT EVEN SLIGHTLY NEW 20:55:54 Pthing: maybe you will think im contradicting myself, but i read bhagavad-gita and i believe in something called 'bhakti yoga' which is making every single action you perform an act of prayer, and giving up the fruits of your work to try to escape the wheel of karma 20:56:09 I happen to think that's irrational 20:56:12 mycroftiv: so basically you say religion is fucking up society and think rationalism is great 20:56:16 and i even chant 'hare krishna' and am a vegetarian and believe in reincarnation 20:56:18 then you have your big boatload of personal irrational beliefs 20:56:24 with no rational or scientific basis 20:56:30 sure do feel like listening to you! 20:56:30 apparently! 20:56:40 nope, you guys are totally misunderstanding 20:56:50 [20:55] mycroftiv: Pthing: maybe you will think im contradicting myself, but i read bhagavad-gita and i believe in something called 'bhakti yoga' which is making every single action you perform an act of prayer, and giving up the fruits of your work to try to escape the wheel of karma 20:56:51 [20:56] mycroftiv: and i even chant 'hare krishna' and am a vegetarian and believe in reincarnation 20:56:53 the fact that i enjoy religious symbols and practices, and believe they can be 'translated' into meaningful terms 20:57:00 dude, you believe in reincarnation 20:57:02 that's not symbolism 20:57:03 or metaphor 20:57:05 that's being reincarnated. 20:57:06 does not mean that i think we should make krishna and vishnu the basis for our economy 20:57:14 (which is incidentally amusingly meaningless) 20:57:17 You are, in fact, demonstrating the main reason why it doesn't work 20:57:21 Compartmentalisation 20:57:27 Pthing: no, i dont compartmentalize at all 20:57:27 I like how mycroftiv was all 20:57:33 "Ohh people twist politics to their beliefs" 20:57:34 You sure about that? 20:57:36 and then was all 20:57:41 "HARE KRISHNA REINCARNATION" 20:58:20 I find the whole idea of rebirth a particularly abhorrent one 20:58:29 it doesn't even make any fucking sense 20:58:32 there is absolutely no contradiction between enjoying religion as a system of symbols and finding ways to map that symbol system onto reality in meaningful ways 20:58:34 do you lose all your memories? 20:58:37 then how are you you old self? 20:58:40 *your 20:58:40 and believing in rational decision making about public policy 20:58:54 mycroftiv, sure, but then why say "I believe in reincarnation" 20:58:55 see, that's a copout 20:58:57 you can't map 20:58:59 being reincarnated 20:59:01 to physical reality 20:59:02 instead of "I think reincarnation is a neat idea" 20:59:08 Pthing: because im a materialist, and i believe in the law of conservation of energy 20:59:11 LOL 20:59:16 ehird: enter 20:59:17 is not 20:59:18 the space bar 20:59:24 Deewiant: your mom isn't either but i still use her. 20:59:33 mycroftiv: what you just said is akin to the quantum mysticism bullshit 20:59:34 My point stands. 20:59:39 why say "I believe in trying to escape the wheel of karma" 20:59:40 ehird: no, not at all 20:59:56 Because that is a tremendously odious idea to me 21:00:04 Pthing: because i think that is a shorthand, symbolic way of communicating the idea 'if someone hits me, i might get mad and go hit someone else - but i shouldnt' 21:00:15 mycroftiv 21:00:16 mycroftiv 21:00:18 That's not what karma is. 21:00:19 How? 21:00:34 that's the westernised concept of karma 21:00:50 Pthing: honestly, you dont understand what im saying, and you arent trying to. thats ok, this is still interesting, but all communication requires a sympathetic effort on the part of the listener 21:00:56 No, I am listening. 21:00:59 http://shii.org/knows/Karma 21:01:22 I think you are making very poor usage of symbolism 21:01:39 You seem to be taking powerful symbols and stripping them of much of it 21:02:00 symbolism is where you say things mean vague and unspecified other things so that you can avoid admitting that you mean the actual thing 21:02:18 uncharitable, it's more a matter of association! 21:02:20 -!- Pthing has left (?). 21:02:21 ehird: no, all language is inherently symbolic, you cant escape the effort of interpretation, and its true that its always hard. 21:02:24 -!- Pthing has joined. 21:02:26 which is 21:02:27 the issue 21:02:33 [21:02] mycroftiv: ehird: no, all language is inherently symbolic, you cant escape the effort of interpretation, and its true that its always hard. 21:02:34 you missed that 21:02:40 the assocations of the idea of "karmic rebirth" 21:02:42 are WAY 21:02:42 WAY 21:02:43 WAY 21:02:46 TREMENDOUSLY WAY MORE 21:02:50 "Language is symbolic therefore escaping the wheel of karma is being nice" 21:02:53 Makes sense! 21:02:55 than "gee i think we should be nice to people what do you think about that" 21:03:18 People do the same to Jesus, reduce his whole ministry to "gee, just be nice!" 21:03:25 Which is an insult, really 21:03:30 Be nice! And stone adulterers. 21:03:33 Also gays. 21:03:36 ehird: there is no way to communicate without oversimplifications. i speak too many words as it is, and despite this, it is always easy to pick them apart. 21:03:43 man, you idiot, you're doing it now, ehird 21:03:50 Pthing: It was a joke, foo. 21:03:52 ehird: Þou win'ſt þe converſation. 21:04:09 Pthing: 'Tis called “ſarcaſm”. 21:04:11 i could work very very hard at trying to add 50,000 footnotes to every sentence i write, trying to show the 'context' in which the symbols should be interpreted, etc etc 21:04:11 pikhq: I only win the conversation if you read my message in old english! 21:04:14 suck you 21:04:23 mycroftiv, sure, that's what symbols are for 21:04:27 Everyone knows that the passages where he tells you to throw rocks at adulterers are just symbolic, anyway. 21:04:28 people implicitly understand the context 21:04:29 BUT 21:04:33 if you REMOVE EVERYTHING 21:04:34 They're symbolic for throwing *stones* at adulterers. 21:04:38 Duh! 21:04:53 and just say that you're treating karma as just a way to talk about being nice 21:05:00 mycroftiv: If other people don't understand you, 21:05:00 you get a kind of symbolic *vacuum* 21:05:02 that is YOUR failing 21:05:06 Pthing: no, im not, if you want me to be more extensive about karma, lets go for it 21:05:10 Please do! 21:05:29 Because I see people do this to religion and it makes me RAEG 21:05:35 ok, since you guys have seized on this particular issue, lets dig into 'karma' and how to use the word meaningfully in a context where you want to overlap both the religious and the scientific symbol-mappings of the world 21:05:56 please let's not 21:06:06 i'm not in the mood for religious bs atm 21:06:08 make up your minds 21:06:10 Pthing: It's a bit more correct to say Jesus' ministry was "let's be nice to people for a change" than to say the same of karma. At least with Jesus' ministry, that was at least a major principle... ;) 21:06:23 pikhq: I must be reading the bible all wrong. 21:06:33 man, ehird's mind isn't mind to make up 21:06:35 I just have mine 21:06:40 and I'm p. sure I want to talk about it 21:06:45 Pthing: Everyone who disagrees with you is a hivemind. Trufax. 21:07:05 ehird, i am being polite, the truth is YOUR MIND HASN'T GROWN IN YET 21:07:12 Hey. 21:07:13 ehird: I said Jesus' ministry specifically, because, well. Doesn't work so well with the *rest* of that book. ;) 21:07:14 I was joking. 21:07:17 you get it on your 18th birthday and that's why the law is as it is 21:07:18 I was talking from the perspective of mycroftiv. 21:07:26 YOU TOLD A DEEP TRUTH 21:07:31 AND DIDN'T EVEN KNOW IT 21:07:43 Pthing: Confirm that you're joking, right? 21:08:01 who can say~~~~~ 21:08:13 i'm mostly just stalling for time until mycroftiv says something about karma 21:08:41 The stalling's better than the result I think. 21:08:53 krsna to arjuna: "not by merely abstaining from work can one achieve freedom from reaction, nor by renunciation alone can one attain perfection. Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature" 21:09:01 "thefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment" 21:09:18 this is on the topic of karma 21:09:25 Someone wanna volunteer to tell me when mycroftiv stops talking about bs? 21:09:35 ehird: what would you like me to talk about? 21:09:40 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:09:43 Something along the lines of not that. :P 21:09:54 ehird: just ask, and i will speak only of that which you prefer 21:09:58 creepy 21:10:20 mycroftiv: The molecular structure of the byproducts of salmon scales. 21:10:31 mycroftiv, face it. Your arguments are much weirder than that of Christian apologists. 21:11:09 pikhq: honestly, i dont think i even got to make any arguments, all that really happened was the inability to make any statements without semantic conflicts and objections. 21:11:41 i dont believe a single 'idea' that i have was successfully communicated, and im sure its my fault for poor communication 21:11:52 mycroftiv: Because the statements you made made negative sense. 21:11:54 Not just no sense, negative sense. 21:11:54 I think it'd help if your ideas were less crazy. :P 21:11:56 pikhq: as i said, its my fault for poor communication 21:12:14 in the face of this 21:12:24 Fairly sure that no communication could make me believe in the westernised form of karma. 21:12:28 is there any hope for a more perfect information flow to Save Our Dollars? 21:12:30 ehird: if you recall, my original idea was "it is possible to create an economic system that wont destroy the lakes in the town i live in, and i think for that to happen, people need to use rational decision making mechanisms more." 21:12:46 Because if you can't get across these ideas 21:12:47 So did you formulate this "theory" just because you liked those lakes or something? 21:12:48 ehird: so i fail to see how that particular proposition is really very crazy or contains 'negative sense', but ah well. 21:12:50 what hope is there for anything else 21:12:53 mycroftiv: I did not say negative sense. 21:12:59 Please stop equating Pthing, pikhq and me. 21:13:00 It is very offensive. 21:13:16 ehird: sorry i didnt mean the 'negative sense' comment to be implied as coming from you! 21:13:23 OK. 21:13:24 ehird: You're such an asshole most of the time that you don't get to say "x is very offensive" 21:13:31 Deewiant: <3 u 2 21:13:39 mycroftiv: And as you went on, your statements made me less confused about what you meant. 21:13:54 Your initial idea was reasonable, and could be an interesting point of discussion. 21:14:00 It got confusing with explanation. 21:14:17 pikhq: s/less/more/ 21:14:28 Deewiant: Kthx. 21:14:32 pikhq: i agree, and my sense of that is that it becomes very difficult to keep a consistent meaning of terms when you cant establish a shared set of meanings in the conversation 21:14:46 mycroftiv: Undoubtedly. 21:14:58 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out). 21:15:35 i try to 'accept' other peoples definitions, and then make statements using *their* terms - to try to 'translate' from my inner representation to whatever language they are speaking, ideologically. its not easy and it makes me seem very inconsistent, because i want to find common terms to communicate with people using any ideology 21:17:02 ive noticed however that the very intelligent people that i most want to communicate with usually react like Pthing - something about what im saying 'smells bad' - too much overlap with cranks and flakes 21:17:23 That's kind of unfair 21:17:38 I wouldn't call a nation of a billion souls with thousands of years of history "cranks and flakes" 21:17:39 Pthing: i apologize, it wasnt meant as criticism of you - just of my own communication habits 21:17:57 what?? 21:18:11 im saying i talk like a damn lunatic, like the fucking TIMECUBE guy 21:18:18 No 21:18:23 Like I said, you just come across as like 21:18:29 using big symbols for little reasons 21:18:33 -!- M0ny has joined. 21:19:37 Pthing: ive honestly lost track of where we were before getting (from my perspective) totally off-based by my admittedly sloppy use of 'karma' as an example, was there any thread that was interesting and worth picking up? 21:20:26 uh ddddoubtful 21:21:40 ehird_: If you disagree with me, you're religious. <<< reversing implications is a deadly sin 21:21:54 uhh i didn't 21:25:48 um, and now for something totally different: do you guys think there are any significantly different 'paradigms' of programming/language construction yet to be discovered? 21:26:08 many 21:26:38 i know i cant sensibly ask 'tell me about what we havent discovered yet ' - but what are some of your ideas for concepts that havent been fully developed/explored that point towards them? 21:27:20 mycroftiv: Pthing: i cant go out on the street naked. there is a law calling that 'indecent exposure.' the existence of that law is obviously due to religious taboos from my society./ <<< i'm with you on this one; except i guess i'm more in the direction of sex cult 21:27:21 many 21:30:29 do you think the way to find them is by studying pure math, along the analogy of turing machines yielding the procedural/state machine paradigm, church's lambda calculus leading to functional languages, etc? 21:32:20 or is the task/application motivated approach, as in how simula was created and led to OO, more likely to provide us with new toolsets? maybe thats an entirely false dichotomy - i guess i was just throwing it out to stimulate discussion 21:32:23 ehird: It's worth noting that #esoteric has never changed someone's mind on anything non-trivial. <<< when it comes to subjects like this, you could s/#esoteric/a conversation/ 21:32:30 oklopil: true :P 21:32:39 mycroftiv: dunno. just try shit :P 21:32:53 oklopil: thats not true, ive had conversations that changed my mind completely - the bullshit i spew now is different from my bs of a few years ago, due to some people who were very convincing 21:33:24 and due to acquiring new evidence of course, not just getting trolled 21:34:19 ehird: btw your ideas about a truly persistent OS with unified handling of the data objects etc - i think its absolutely great and would honestly like to help work on such a project, whenever you have it officially rolling 21:36:07 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:36:08 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 21:36:16 -!- coppro has joined. 21:36:33 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3825056345770693923 <<< greatest video ever 21:36:40 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo. 21:38:49 ehird: then how are you you old self? <<< same soul? 21:39:57 oklopil 21:40:00 there is no such thing as a soul 21:40:03 mycroftiv: thanks 21:40:10 mycroftiv: i would like to start working on it soon 21:40:27 shame that it's only practical to do it on x86_64 21:40:59 ehird: well, as a practical matter - despite the desire to support esoteric platforms - theres really nothing so wrong about that 21:41:05 yeah 21:41:05 ehird: Why only on x86_64? 21:41:16 pikhq: it's what i have and it's what everyone else has 21:41:23 (aside from that being the most common platform) 21:41:37 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:41:43 Ah, so that's about it. 21:41:46 Mmkay; that works. 21:42:33 mycroftiv: Anyway, it's wrong because it means I have to code according to it, and it really sucks. :) 21:44:40 Still, the best computers are all based on it, so what can you do. 21:45:20 I wonder how to handle partitioning in such a system; i.e. "SSD for OS, HD for media". Rich types, I guess. 21:45:40 ehird: well, there is another approach available! you could create an OS more along the lines of a self-contained platform that abstracts away from the host os/hardware - like Inferno as an example, or (in a lesser way) something like java or smalltalk itself 21:45:49 Although I don't think it's worth bothering supporting multiple media persistence because dammit, there's a 1TB SSD for $2k and an 80GB SSD for $250 21:45:58 HDs will be dead long before this is worth using 21:46:27 mycroftiv: that kinda sucks for using forth at the low level though 21:46:37 since it benefits so much from knowing the hardware wel 21:46:39 s/$/l/ 21:47:12 ehird: i agree, i was just offering it as a possibile option because hardware support is such a pain 21:47:18 mm 21:47:37 thankfully things like graphics cards don't really matter for a looooong time 21:47:51 you probably know a lot of the plan9 stuff has gone/is going in the direction of trying to free ride on the linux kernel to manage the hardware, and tons of developmnet oses take a similar strategy 21:47:52 bios sucks though 21:47:57 would love to build it on openfirmware or something 21:48:07 but afaik the OLPC XO-1 is the only x86 with openfirmware 21:48:14 mycroftiv: yeah i dislike that 21:48:25 you take away one of plan 9's main advantage 21:48:28 ehird: uhh i didn't <<< mycroftiv said a religious guy probably wouldn't agree, maybe you weren't responding to that in particular, or maybe you considered context as well, i just like to see reversed implications and be annoyed by them. 21:48:29 the unified system architecture 21:48:36 oklopil: kay :P 21:49:02 i sorta dislike it but the fact is that human time and energy and resources are limited, and you want to put your time where it does the most good - and if you dont have a large team of devs with hardware skills, hardware can just be a real barrier 21:50:08 But if I wanted to compromise, I'd build it on unix 21:50:09 s/$/!/ 21:50:13 Dammit, I should stop making errors. 21:50:17 mycroftiv: um, and now for something totally different: do you guys think there are any significantly different 'paradigms' of programming/language construction yet to be discovered? <<< yes. 21:50:53 mycroftiv: i know i cant sensibly ask 'tell me about what we havent discovered yet ' - but what are some of your ideas for concepts that havent been fully developed/explored that point towards them? <<< i have tons of vague ideas i can't explain! 21:51:12 mycroftiv: but really, building this on top of unix would result in… wait for it… Squeak. 21:51:26 and you do NOT want anything to result in squeak 21:51:27 oklopil: any referent for the ideas, or what existing stuff acts to 'trigger' them, make you say 'what if...' 21:51:28 s/$/!/ (grr) 21:52:19 mycroftiv: For context, note that oklopil made a language based on lists of negative nesting (<> is 0, <> is 1, etc) and NOPs. 21:52:20 ehird: makes sense, do you have a plan to get started? target a VM specification, or a particular given 'generic' hardware spec? 21:52:47 Also, the regular thing: support the standard x86_64/BIOS stuff, because differing drivers won't be neccessary until much later. 21:54:11 mycroftiv: oklopil: thats not true, ive had conversations that changed my mind completely - the bullshit i spew now is different from my bs of a few years ago, due to some people who were very convincing <<< i'm not saying you can't change your mind about things due to conversations, yes, but what i said isn't even that much of an oversimplication, people simply suck at having conversations ime. 21:55:03 people are often great at talking though, that's why stuff like books and lectures work, because people are usually actually listening, unlike when having conversations. then again i am a simplificator, and a crazy person, so what do i know. 21:55:22 oklopil: sure, i really do try to 'swear off' the debates about politics/religion/ethics and keep my time and energy focused on translating my ideas into 'real things' like software and music and essays 21:55:54 obviously though the resolution to 'not get dragged into trying to explain my private mapping of the universe' is something i constantly fail though 21:56:18 it's weird to be the only person without a crazy unifying theory. 21:56:24 ehird: there is no such thing as a soul <<< believing in the soul is, ime, one of the simplest religious beliefs you can obtain, because of all the consciousness. but i was mostly joking. 21:56:53 ehird: you have a crazy unifying theory, you are just smart and you keep it limited to a single domain you are expert in 21:57:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:58:26 oklopil: yeah but i was rebutting it as a religious belief 21:58:31 justifying it with another isn't terribly convincing 21:58:50 mycroftiv: i'm really not certain I'd call myself an expert. 21:59:07 my last OS failed because i couldn't fuckin' get interrupts set up 21:59:35 ehird: it's weird to be the only person without a crazy unifying theory. <<< my crazy unifying theory is mostly ignoring the problem. 21:59:38 ehird: well, i honestly have no way at this point of really assessing your expertise, but im happy to give you the benefit of the doubt - and based on the satement you just said 'my last os failed' - that certainly qualities as 'expert' given that most people dont have a 'last os' 21:59:53 mycroftiv: it's all relative, though 22:00:05 making some code that can be booted by grub isn't exactly an odd thing for this channel 22:00:59 a friend of mine just finished writing the network card drivers for his os 22:01:12 grub is incidentally not allowed in my os 22:01:13 ehird: yes, but the point i was making wasnt about how great you are, but just that you certainly have at least the expertise required for your ideas (your 'crazy theory' of how an os should work) to be meaningful 22:01:14 same guy couldn't solve the int(n/m) problem, grrr 22:01:17 it has c, you see 22:01:29 mycroftiv: i'd call that knowledge, not expertise 22:01:36 i generally reserve that for... well... experts 22:01:49 i can tell this is a damn language channel, you guys are fucking crazy for precise definitions\ 22:02:29 you're welcome 22:02:43 i cant string 5 words together in a sequence without subjecting at least one of them to a highly metaphorical and nonstandard use 22:03:10 mycroftiv: some of the ideas i can explain are my graph definition language (which is more of a useless DSL), and Ef, which was based on taking fixed points of every function 22:03:11 that's not my problem :P 22:03:53 the graph thing, graphica, is my personal favorite; but Ef is, in some sense, a completely new paradigm 22:04:13 oklopil: those both sound very interesting, im not sure how you build a language from 'fixed points of every function' - but thats my ignorance, id love to learn, got any references to check out? 22:04:30 mycroftiv: don't worry, it's not your ignorance 22:04:40 nobody understands oklopil's languages for the first few days 22:04:47 mycroftiv: the basic idea is pattern matching on problems, then imperatively changing them. 22:04:54 imperatively as in statefully 22:05:05 oklopil: ok, that i think i get 22:05:14 it's nothing like that fwiw 22:06:23 -!- coppro has joined. 22:06:30 Vitamins! 22:06:49 ehird: what's not what? :P 22:07:10 ef 22:07:35 this is the canonical sort, sort={x:_;y:_;?xy=>[x y]=[y x]}; not sure what sort that is exactly, you find pairs that should be the other way around, and swap them 22:08:01 That looks like bubblesort. 22:08:23 ok, i see whats going on with statement, looks neat 22:08:23 yeah, except it's nondeterministic 22:08:39 a sensible compilation would be bubblesort, or something along those lines 22:09:00 mycroftiv: basically a normal form of executing that on a list is taken 22:09:05 It could also quite reasonably become a sorting network. :P 22:09:21 pikhq: yes, very parallelizable! 22:09:33 wait sorting network right 22:09:35 :D 22:09:40 kinda misunderstood you there. 22:10:18 oklopil: ¿ 22:10:27 what's that? 22:10:45 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 22:10:48 Accidentally upside-down ? 22:11:20 mycroftiv: [x y]=[y x] has to do with ef's completely insane value/reference semantics, which have nothing to do with the fixed point and pattern matching stuff 22:11:35 i tend to reinvent everything from scratch when i make a new language 22:12:00 except a few things i consider fundamental enough to use without rethinking, like lists 22:12:36 oklopil: replace lists with sorting networks that sort things to that list's structure 22:12:42 and encode the values in this structure 22:14:06 i'm almost incompletely not unsure what you mean 22:14:54 oklopil: basically, the idea is that everything is a sorting network 22:15:01 in this case, if we have a list 1:2:3:[] 22:15:09 then we encode the 1 in the way it resorts 22:15:18 and then encode 2:3:[], "wrapping" each element of its encoding 22:15:19 to show that it's the tail 22:15:25 recursively, then using a sentinel sorting pattern for [] 22:15:33 and thus, to operate on lists we make special lists ourselves for them 22:15:36 and run it on them 22:15:42 and check the results 22:15:48 so, everything's a sorting network that sorts other sorting networks 22:16:36 anyway mycroftiv there's a lot of unused esolang material in mathematics already, many fun models of computation haven't really gotten famous enough to have been esolangified. 22:16:49 right, thats what i was asking 22:16:57 if theres a lot of available formalisms that dont have languages matches to them 22:17:39 i don't know of that many, but this is what an esolang professor told me at uni 22:18:05 for instance matrix multiplication is tc 22:18:30 Esolang professor? 22:18:53 well he does computation model stuff, so yeah :P 22:19:01 it is? 22:19:02 fuck awesome 22:19:06 tilings mostly 22:19:25 ehird: basically you can do tm's by walking up and down a real number's digits 22:19:34 i thought you hated reals 22:19:48 you did? well i don't :P 22:19:50 i may have. 22:20:08 -!- M0ny has quit. 22:20:16 also he had some results about reversibility of certain ca's 22:20:35 and i was like can i have your autograph 22:20:41 oklopil: you said they're too numbery 22:20:43 well not out loud but anyway 22:20:59 oh, well yeah i hate *instances* of real numbers :P 22:21:15 i enjoy the structure of the field though. 22:21:42 lol 22:22:55 how is that a lolling matter 22:23:12 it's a pretty fucking sexy field 22:24:03 hating instances of it 22:24:10 anyway as we all know reals are continued fractions. 22:24:14 AND NOTHING ELSE 22:24:17 anything else is satan 22:24:28 since we are speaking about the real numbers - transfinite math, do we have any computer languages currently that can work correctly with the transfinite ordinals and other stuff like that from set theory? 22:25:34 yes 22:25:35 your mom 22:25:55 mycroftiv: That depends: are the operations you want on them computable? 22:26:11 If so, then we have plenty. The usage of them may just be very hard. 22:26:14 ;) 22:27:17 pikhq: questions about the computability of operations on infinite sets are sadly over my head, im at the level of understanding the continuum hypothesis and the diagonal slash argument and the concept of a power set and all that, but my curiousity stems largely from wishing there was computer software i could work with that would teach me more 22:27:55 Probably Mathematica. 22:28:12 by the diagonal slash arg do you mean the proof that |reals| > |ints| 22:28:19 wish i had access to that software, ever. thats what drove me to become a free software user and developer 22:28:42 download it 22:28:47 oklopil: that is one of the most famous applications of it, but of course 'diagonal' type arguments show up everywhere, godel as well for instance, but i suspect you know all this better than i do 22:30:34 i don't know much math 22:31:00 i just know one diagonalization argument 22:31:44 oklopil: yeah, the reals > ints is probably the most famous one, and the direct reference i was referring to. 22:32:13 but the form of that argument is amazingly powerful and has become very much a 'standard tool' of proof in a lot of areas 22:33:17 probably, i really don't know much about anything but basic algebra, and cs-related 22:33:23 stuff 22:34:04 anyway diagonalization is a pretty simple proof by contradiction 22:34:09 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 22:34:19 what's interesting about power sets exactly? 22:34:35 well, that is how the chain of transfinite numbers is generated 22:34:46 sure 22:35:18 i just don't think it's a good starting place for expanding your mathematical brain 22:36:13 well, i wouldnt call it a starting place, ive been studying math for a long time now even though im not particularly good at it really 22:36:27 but since actually understanding all the math in modern physics is important to me, i keep working at it 22:36:43 right. physics is boring 22:36:57 hmm, i think physics is 100% as interesting as the universe itself ;D 22:37:04 sex is interesting because physics FEELS GOOD 22:37:08 and makes babies 22:37:11 the universe is pretty boring :P 22:37:19 well sure, sex is fun 22:37:48 i'm more interested in pure, simplified universes 22:38:35 baby universes 22:38:37 oklopil: well, for all we know, at the lowest level, our universe might a rule 110 machine...we dont know what the little elves turning the cranks are up to in that regard quite yet 22:38:39 MWI = sex 22:38:47 mycroftiv: Nice try, Wolfram. 22:39:37 ehird: wolfram didnt invent those ideas, people have been speculating that the universe is just a computation since newton 22:39:46 "Rule 110". 22:40:20 *shrug* simple and cool example, back when i was talking about this stuff in the late 80s, i would have said 'the universe is like the mandelbrot set' 22:41:58 the mandelbrot set is much less discrete computation -y 22:42:04 i get the impression that you're like 40 22:42:08 i mean as a side note 22:42:13 ehird: yeah, almost 22:42:26 ehird: you didn't get that impression before thsi? 22:42:28 *this 22:42:32 oklopil: well i did it was just forming 22:42:39 oklopil: yes, actually the question of discrete vs fractal/continuous is really important when trying to make a model that is more meaningful than just metaphor 22:42:45 (which btw i dont think anyone has actually done!) 22:42:59 i guess when intelligence's brain cells die they excrete crazy :D 22:43:39 ehird: i used to be much crazier, i decided quite awhile ago i had to try to work much more within the pure science/math domain to get anywhere 22:43:52 uhh i am GLAD you didn't come here then 22:44:03 cuz you're pushing new boundaries in #esoteric craziness :P 22:44:57 i don't find him all that crazy, maybe i'm too crazy to notice it 22:45:06 ehird: well, i still havent managed to syncrhonize myself with the prevailing discourse, i was early figuring the 'lets slag on religion thing' was an easy way of expressing certain ideas, but that was a mistake, i got called on it rightly 22:45:45 so then i end up trying to prove that im not a hater-of-religion, which ends up making me seem very incosistent suddenly - even though i think religious symbolism and ritual is orthogonal to public economic policy, which i thought was teh topic 22:45:47 i wasn't really interested in the anti-religion stuff because i pretty much exhausted all the realisations with regards to it like a year ago 22:46:10 ehird: yeah, that was my mistake in how i was situating my statements - i thought the kids today were all into that dawkins-hitchens perspective 22:46:23 hitchens is kind of a dick. 22:46:28 dawkin's ok though. 22:46:35 *dawkins', whatever 22:46:44 but i don't think there's many kids in here really 22:46:58 well, if you actually want to *convince* people, i think they are just preaching to the choir and alienating the people they are trying to persuade, actually 22:47:10 ehird: i meant that purely as a joke use of language 22:47:16 :P 22:47:32 I've been an atheist since like 9 and an agnostic since forever 22:47:34 also there are tons of kids here 22:47:38 although really, I basically just never considered that god might exist 22:47:45 i wasn't ever exposed to the concept, really 22:47:56 but I still found The God Delusion a good book 22:48:06 it helped explain to me why religion was so prevalent 22:48:14 dawkins has plenty of non-anti-religion books anyway 22:48:14 ehird: one of the reasons i can be frustrating to communicate with is that i believe language is a map and i try to figure out what map the person i am talking to is using, and then speak using its landmarks 22:48:34 Unweaving the Rainbow is still basically anti-supersitition, but it's mainly about how beauty can come out of analysis and how coincidences really do exist 22:48:54 mycroftiv: you can't subvert biases by using different words unless you're really effective at it imo 22:49:53 ehird: yeah i produce the opposite results sometimes, because of the inconsistency issue and trying to communicate with multiple people at once 22:50:42 if im trying to talk to someone who believes in stuff like esp and ufos and that i think is 'confused', i can sound like im failing to actually maintain my beliefs because im not contradicting ideas that i think are 'confused' (== wrong) 22:50:50 i don't argue with cranks 22:50:52 waste of time 22:51:04 i love cranks, i study thenm 22:51:09 i work very, very hard on not being one 22:51:17 thats why hard science and math are where i try to situate myself now 22:51:30 quantum darwinism man :) 22:51:34 (yeah yeah I know) 22:51:39 (I just love hatin' on that name) 22:52:14 ehird: ...yeah it makes me grit my teeth too, the thing is zurek keeps trying to come up with a name since he realizes people just dont understand the significance, even if they agree with his work. 22:52:24 his old term was 'the existential interpretation' which meant nothing 22:52:40 I'm not sure I'd trust a theory whose originator thinks it's really important 22:52:45 'decoherence' is still the most used term for the basics of his approach, but hes advanced a long way past the simple... 22:53:15 It's the more "correct"/"possible" universes traveling forwards in the dimension of time, right? 22:53:17 ehird: that was my guess as to the psychology of his changing his terminology, please dont confuse my random bs with what the man actually says 22:53:19 and the less suitable ones not being able to 22:53:37 if you want to see a wacky theory, see my Oracularity that got digested (no, it's not a serious theory) 22:53:49 ehird: its specifically based on the actual math of the quantum equations that 'everyone' agrees with, and actually studying how information is transmitted between systems through time. 22:53:51 I'd call it something like "spatial decoherence" since it's moving forwards in time to get a chance at space. It's not a terribly meaningful name, but it sounds okay. 22:54:24 so the idea is that 'classical' type information, where the ball bounces off the wall, is far more likely to sucessfully transmit than the information that matches the ball going through the wall 22:54:34 (im oversimplifying deliberately to the pop sci level) 22:54:41 (not because i think you need it, just to speak quickly) 22:54:41 pop sci level is a good way to get a good name though 22:55:16 From what you're saying I basically gather that it's: more classically probable information has a better chance of moving forwards in time to affect space 22:55:27 and the less classical outcomes will lag behind, so to speak 22:55:31 again, wildly analogising 22:55:37 from that I'd still call it spacial decoherence 22:55:41 *spatial 22:55:49 almost exactly correct - in your statement, you should substitute 'other quantum systems' though for the word 'space' 22:55:51 ehird: I'm not sure I'd trust a theory whose originator thinks it's really important <<< iirc the cross product was considered like the final salvation by its inventor 22:56:10 the cross product isn't exactly a theory :P 22:56:28 well no, that was more of a random piece of funny information. 22:56:44 mycroftiv: yes but that gives quantum decoherence. 22:56:45 i think zurek believes (correctly) that his work has mostly resolved the 'quantum measurement problem' and paradoxes like schrodinger's cat. his work is real science, its hard math, it can be tested by experiment also. so his opinion i dont think is relevant to evaluating it. 22:56:50 which is taken, I gather :D 22:56:58 ehird: zurek's work IS quantum decoherence!@ 22:57:05 he is one of the guys who is responsible for a huge amount of that work! 22:57:08 tahts HIM! 22:57:10 lol 22:57:12 mycroftiv: I don't accept your claim that quantum darwinism objectively true 22:57:22 and plenty of people accept decoherence but don't, afaik, subscribe to this interpretation 22:57:28 ehird: it can be objectively tested and verified with standard mathematical analysis and experimentation 22:57:29 so it only makes sense to separate them 22:57:32 mycroftiv: so you keep saying 22:57:44 people disagree with you, so we don't simply call it "the truth" 22:57:51 ehird: yes, "QD" is the name zurek gives to his more recent work that extends the decoherent paradigm 22:58:08 ehird: sorry if i was seeming to state things non-carefully, let me translate the language: 22:59:16 "within the current dominant paradigm casually referred to as western science, the principles of quantum mechanics are widely accepted. zurek is a mainstream practitioner who's work is mostly done via pure mathematical manipulation, so his results are widely accepted as valid. it is only a model, and more study and data are needed, because it is a relatively new model." 22:59:35 did all of that make it to channel or was it too long? 23:00:07 all made 23:00:10 i personally think that a lot of the information in a careful statement like that can 'go without saying' between people who mutually understand the principles of the scientific method 23:00:48 so i apologize if i seem to make statements that should be made carefully about models, predictions, and 'best current explanation of data' - and state them in the language of fact, etc. 23:01:07 i've never heard of quantum darwinism being accepted, though 23:01:16 its wikipedia article is small and you're the first i've heard of it 23:01:16 what do you mean by that? 23:01:21 and all your links are from arxiv 23:01:23 i'm just saying 23:01:27 it doesn't seem like something every physicist accepts 23:01:38 from what i've seen most of them go for copenhagen 23:02:53 ehird: well, i dunno, i think you are mistaken on this. i think if you actually talked to the mainstream university tenured scientists who are expert on this issue, they would have the highest praise for zurek's work, and say that he has made amazing factual contributions to our understanding 23:03:12 i'm just skeptical 23:03:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:03:27 his papers are widely cited, and the people who are actually spending tons of money on quantum computing are basing their engineering efforts on the theorems he has been part of proving 23:04:59 the d-wave blog mostly makes reference to MWI 23:05:02 not qd 23:05:06 at least what i've read 23:05:14 and d-wave seem to be the main name in actually making quantum computers 23:05:51 the work of zurek's that is directly related to quantum computing is not QD, its his work on quantum computation/informatino theory and entropy etc 23:06:23 hmmmmm 23:06:24 D-Wave has been heavily criticized by some scientists in the quantum computing field. According to Scott Aaronson, a Computer Science professor at MIT who specializes in the theory of quantum computing, D-Wave's demonstration did not prove anything about the workings of the computer. He claimed a useful quantum computer would require a huge breakthrough in physics, which has not been published or shared with the physics community.[1] Dr. Aaronson has mainta 23:06:25 also, the fact i link stuff from arxiv doesnt mean that those arent the preprints of papers that were published in major journals with peer review 23:06:53 Umesh Vazirani, a professor at UC Berkeley and one of the founders of quantum complexity theory, made the following criticism:[2] 23:06:53 "Their claimed speedup over classical algorithms appears to be based on a misunderstanding of a paper my colleagues van Dam, Mosca and I wrote on “The power of adiabatic quantum computing”. That speed up unfortunately does not hold in the setting at hand, and therefore D-Wave’s “quantum computer” even if it turns out to be a true quantum computer, and even if it can be scaled to thousands of qubits, would likely not be more powerful than a cell ph 23:06:54 Wim van Dam, a professor at UC Santa Barbara, summarized the current scientific community consensus in the journal Nature:[12] 23:06:55 "At the moment it is impossible to say if D-Wave's quantum computer is intrinsically equivalent to a classical computer or not. So until more is known about their error rates, caveat emptor is the least one can say." 23:06:58 ok forget d-wave 23:07:25 yeah i was gonna question the relevance of the 'd-wave blog' for anything, but since i havent read it, i dont have an opinion :) 23:07:47 mycroftiv: d-wave seemed reputable enough to me 23:07:54 i saw a lot of sane-seeming pepole say "yay" about it 23:07:58 they've got in newspapers 23:08:00 i said i have zero opinion! ive never read i! :) 23:08:05 and the blog seemed sincere and honest 23:08:07 mycroftiv: yeah just saying 23:08:17 i wasn't reading some random kid's blog about his supposedly quantum computers :P 23:08:32 Every computer is quantum 23:08:37 It's made of particles and shit 23:09:00 hurp durp 23:09:16 ehird: anyway, copenhagen isnt an explanation of how the classical world results from the quantum - its a model that says 'we dont have to worry about it' - every physicist agrees that if you accept quantum theory as real, you have to explain ultimately (in ways copenhagen doesnt) the entire system of experimenter/appartus/subject as quantum 23:09:46 and the mainstream model of that currently is definitely the decoherent paradigm 23:10:05 of which zurek has been a leading researcher, and QD represents the 'state of the art' of his research on this topic 23:10:14 so it may well be totally wrong 23:10:27 if quantum mechanics isnt 'really fundamental' we can obviously throw it right out 23:10:47 or if further experiments on the transition between the quantum and the classical scale contradict its predictions 23:13:28 QD is nothing more than a certain model that seems to do well at showing that we dont actually need 'new physics' to explain the appearance of the 'classical world' - it actually *does* emerge properly, just from the current known quantum equations 23:14:30 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:15:58 ehird: i think the fact that its not famous or well known yet (or may ever be) is because it isnt challenging or overturning anything - its basically saying that the current equations we have work even better than we had thought! and for working physicists the 'measurement problem' has never been a really huge concern anyway, since experiments DO work as a practical matter 23:17:28 a lot of the value of zurek's work is actually that it powerfully *rebuts* people who want to find some kind of 'magic' in quantum theory they can use to make telepathy or other such pseudoscience plausible 23:19:50 his work strongly suggests that all of the 'weird' behaviors of quantum mechanics are unlikely to create any macro-scale 'loopholes' that we can exploit. 23:24:04 speaking purely for myself, from my reading of zurek's work, i think it actually implies that we arent likely to get a good quantum computer anytime soon, because the orthogonal basis states it depends on are just so hard to maintain 23:28:30 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:40:36 back 23:41:46 mycroftiv: well there are quantum computers, just near-0k ones 23:41:52 and i don't mean price :D 23:42:04 yeah, its the scaling up to many qubits thats hard 23:42:05 but a few qubits aren't exactly useful 23:42:07 yeah 23:42:21 mycroftiv: it sort of depresses me that quantum physics DOESN'T let us do freaky stuff :) 23:42:31 and thats where the 'nature doesnt like to maintain superpositions' problem kicks in - i have a theory that theres probably a catch 22 at work 23:43:16 the amount of energy required to create the conditions to maintain the necessary number of qubits could probably do 'just as much' computation on their own if pumped into old fashioned chips rather than maintaining a coherent apparatus for the quantum superpositions 23:43:37 that might turn out to be a kind of implication of the 2nd law 23:44:16 ehird: yeah i remember reading pop sci stuff about 'tachyons that go back in time' and being very disappointed i couldnt buy a tachyon telephone and that they didnt actually exist anyway 23:44:35 yeah 23:46:11 my personal pet physics-wish is that we can send information across everett branches 23:46:24 = inter-universe communication 23:47:42 there's not really any evidence or theories at all on that one 23:47:44 as far as i know 23:48:07 of course quantum darwinism probably says all the fun universe's genes will have gone extinct :D 23:49:33 mycroftiv: amirite 23:50:36 ehird: its hard to say...if you could create an environment (such as quantum computing tries to) where stuff wasnt constantly transmitting information back and forth, then maybe the evolution of the state would be different 23:50:50 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 23:51:19 cross-everett-branch communication only works in the purest form of MWI 23:51:25 i.e., each quantum event truly does split the universe in two 23:51:34 and there are literal, existing, multiple universes 23:51:38 that all survive 23:52:58 id have to look at some mathematics, but how does transmitting information between everett branches avoid violations of the laws of thermodynamics? 23:53:31 as far as i know it doesn't. 23:53:44 entropy never decreasing is a statistical law anyway isn't it 23:53:50 i.e. the probabability of entropy decreasing is 0 23:53:55 doesn't mean it's impossible 23:54:31 ehird: aha! well, this is very interesting...this goes to the heart of the issues - because a lot of zurek's work is devoted to showing that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is the direct consequence of the conservation laws that apply to quantum interactions 23:54:58 but zurek's work doesn't even have literal multiple universes as i understand it 23:55:06 so we have to ignore it to even consider this communication 23:55:40 ehird: well, i think thats debatable, because 'multiple universes' is mostly a semantic/philosophical level interpretation of what sets of equations 'mean' more than a mathematical statement itself in this case 23:56:00 ehird: you could say in many ways that zurek's work is 'all about' studying the multiple universes and exactly how/if they can interact perhaps 23:56:13 i know that zurek himself places his work in the tradition of that school of interpretation 23:56:21 mm 23:56:26 it would be cool, anyway 23:56:26 (working from the MWI idea of 'taking the equations seriously and literally') 23:56:31 especially if it violates thermodynamics 23:56:36 i want my extra energy, bitch 23:57:01 me too 23:57:26 in fact i'd find it incredibly depressing if entropy can truly never decrease 23:57:38 ehird : it can decrease 23:57:39 i kind of like the universe and life and such. 23:57:48 Slereah_: Yes, it just has probability 0, etc, se ↑↑↑ 23:57:49 *see 23:58:01 Well, not 0. 23:58:02 Slereah_: Anyway, what interpretation do you subscribe to? I'm sure I asked before. 23:58:03 Just low 23:58:14 ehird : I'm an instrumentalist 23:58:25 That is, I consider physics as a tool 23:58:40 Slereah_: That's not a quantum interpretation :P 23:58:40 So I don't care too much about the metaphysical truth behind 23:58:50 I mean Copenhagen/MWI/blah balh blah. 23:58:52 *blah 23:58:52 If there's a way to differentiate the two, why not 23:59:24 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:59:27 Slereah_: well, the thing that is exciting to me is that the 'reach' of our quantum mechanical 'tools' i think has been extended a lot, and now we can see that those tools still work even at the classical level 23:59:31 Tooooo late 23:59:31 bah! 23:59:36 He'll be back. 23:59:37 -!- Slereah has joined. 23:59:40 >:| 23:59:40 Told you so. 23:59:43 Slereah_: well, the thing that is exciting to me is that the 'reach' of our quantum mechanical 'tools' i think has been extended a lot, and now we can see that those tools still work even at the classical level 23:59:43 23:59] mycroftiv: Slereah_: well, the thing that is exciting to me is that the 'reach' of our quantum mechanical 'tools' i think has been extended a lot, and now we can see that those tools still work even at the classical level 23:59:44 [23:59] ehird: Tooooo late 23:59:44 [23:59] mycroftiv: bah! 23:59:44 [23:59] ehird: He'll be back. 23:59:46 snap 23:59:48 s/^2/[2/ 23:59:53 (You guys all understand regexps, right? :P) 2009-08-05: 00:00:16 I understand s/// 00:00:24 of course, i practically speak (*$%|*(#$&*/#*($&\/\#(*$ as my native language 00:01:48 mycroftiv: Oh so witty 00:01:52 Perl is line noise amirite 00:02:12 you know the defintion of unix, right? "40 defintions of regexp living under one roof" 00:02:44 never understood why there wasn't a standard regex toolset for unix 00:02:54 it's the obvious thing to do from the start 00:03:03 same reason we have more than one programming language in the world and more than one use of symbols in computers in general 00:03:13 people like to make their own thing 00:03:35 mycroftiv: but Ken Thompson did it! 00:03:45 unix philosophy! they actually used it those days 00:03:47 so why not for regexp? 00:04:13 I'm very much in favour of the operating system providing a whole lot though 00:04:34 (Arguably bloat, but I don't separate the operating system and the programs on top, so.) 00:04:42 i think the distinction between OS and software is something we should get beyond anyway 00:04:51 yep 00:04:57 my OS is object-based 00:05:05 i fight with plan9 people about this a lot, because i think they dont even understand their own os or its concepts really 00:05:14 intelligent objects with methods to manipulate and transform them, plus extra methods that make a visualisation of that object and provide a UI to manipulate it 00:05:27 you'd be hard-pressed to sell any "software" for it 00:05:38 "Adobe bitmap image editing components 7.0!" 00:07:14 hmm, how do your provide visualization and UI for objects in a 'universal' way? how do you avoid having specific software tools to work with specific types of objects? 00:07:53 maybe not so much avoid as discourage 00:08:21 mycroftiv: because you don't give a tool object the object to work on 00:08:26 you ask the object for an interface 00:08:29 -!- jix has joined. 00:08:38 the emphasis is very much on communicating with smart objects 00:08:53 and tools don't contain their behaviour, really 00:08:59 the interface just asks the object directly 00:09:02 and you add stuff to the object 00:09:04 sure, you CAN do a tool 00:09:06 but it'd be awkward 00:09:07 oh, well, in that case the mapping simply places the traditional software/UI component inside the object, sure 00:09:12 and be really hard to start etc 00:09:21 mycroftiv: well, there are extensible interfaces ofc 00:09:43 but at the end of it, you're clicking something that modifies an object it's showing, yes. 00:09:49 so what is paradigm for 'shifting' data as content between different interfaces? 00:09:56 but the workflow differs 00:10:03 mycroftiv: well, when you ask the object for an interface 00:10:07 it gives you an appropriate interface object 00:10:12 and that interface obviously contains the object 00:10:13 so 00:10:17 just grab the object from the interface 00:10:20 and ask it for another interface 00:10:24 non-destructive updates 00:10:27 if you flip an image in a UI 00:10:28 can it attach to and make use of interface components/tools located in other objects? 00:10:29 it doesn't change the image 00:10:32 it just updates the image in the interface 00:10:36 so e.h. 00:10:38 *e.g. 00:10:39 you can copy that 00:10:42 and manipulate that flipped image 00:10:42 OR 00:10:45 link the two images together 00:10:49 and manipulate the image as you work 00:10:49 like 00:11:01 have an inverted image of another interface's image 00:11:03 scale the image in the latter 00:11:07 and it updates the inverted image 00:11:10 mycroftiv: sure 00:12:33 yeah, im thinking about how to translate various tasks from the traditional model to this model 00:13:00 i don't really have specific things fleshed out 00:13:06 but the general model seems sound 00:13:18 you have to be careful about where you place your object in the abstraction layer tho 00:13:25 so - old model - i have (your favorite!) a text file - i can bring the data from that text file into a 'word processor' app to do various font/formatting stuff, or i can bring that text data into my 'rpg game creator' environment to use as a message on the wall the player can read 00:13:27 e.g. (webPage browser) isn't acceptable 00:13:32 because you have cookies and the like 00:13:49 mycroftiv: ok, lemme give that a shot 00:13:53 now, in the new model - the base object of the content can provide me a 'word processor like interface' by making use of that module, right? 00:14:17 You bring up your text object, which brings up the default interface, which has the ability to switch to other interfaces. 00:14:26 First you might convert it to rich text, say. 00:14:40 You select your desired interface, and do font/formatting stuff like usual. 00:14:45 you'd have e.g. 00:14:54 PlainText>>awesomeWordProcessorInterface 00:14:59 with the source being like 00:15:14 self interfaceUsing: [ AwesomeWordProcessor new with: self ] 00:15:25 so, you have that rich text 00:15:32 and you extract the object from it 00:15:35 so if i want to 'connect' the interface of the basically textual object to the object that is game/game-dev like, the text object 'imports a component' from the game/dev object to allow the interfaces to interact? (typed this while reading your explanation btw) 00:15:40 now, in your RPG creator 00:15:51 you plug in that object in to the "message on wall" fied 00:15:53 *field 00:16:00 if you plugged it in directly from the word processor without copying 00:16:03 then you can edit in the word processor 00:16:06 and it edits in the rpg 00:16:07 ok, yeah, i think i see how it can be modelled and work within the context youve described 00:16:09 if you copy it like usual 00:16:12 then it's a snapshot in time 00:16:33 mycroftiv: generally there's not too much separate interface interaction, since that just leads to "app"-specific hell 00:16:40 you generally operate directly with the objects 00:16:45 yeah, im trying to 'think my way out' of the paradigm 00:16:55 but yeah, you could absolutely stick two interfaces together and tell them to talk 00:16:57 if they know the other 00:17:09 thinking as a hypothetical user working with the hypoethetically existent system and trying to visualize what is im doing 00:17:23 well i'm speaking in vague things like extracting the object because i haven't got on to the actual ui work 00:17:28 so i don't know how exactly you'd go about that 00:18:47 mycroftiv: one thing I'm totally unsure on is how to go about versioning every change of everything 00:18:51 i don't want to eat up disk 00:18:57 since you are pursuing a kind of 'vision of purity' i would say as your design work continues you should make sure to create some imaginary user interfaces as you go 00:18:59 but i hate not being able to undo 00:19:44 ehird: well, cant you still have the fundamentals of persistence but still be smart about 'delayed writes' to the actual disk? 00:19:54 oh, that's handled in the persistence layer 00:19:59 right 00:20:02 the point is that if you track every single atomic change to every single object 00:20:09 oh, just so much data? 00:20:09 your 2TB disk fills up uncannily quickly 00:20:12 right 00:20:26 ehird: no, i dont think it does if you use deduplication down in that persistence layer probably 00:20:29 need real world testing 00:20:33 mm 00:20:38 but i think youd be surprised how much deduplicative storage can gain you in that regard 00:20:47 I don't know what that is; I'll look it up 00:21:06 duplicate data blocks get stored as a pointer reference to the existing data block, not as a new redundant copy 00:21:08 mycroftiv: basically diff. 00:21:12 what hardlink backups do 00:21:23 any time you see an unchanged file, make it a hardlink instead 00:21:33 except more fine-grained 00:21:39 right, its that kind of thing, but dedup data storage yeah is block level 00:21:49 and for your system, you want to do something like 'rabin fingerprinting' i think 00:22:10 this is all your low level technical stuff to make your persistence concepts not actually kill your real world disks 00:22:21 as you correctly saw the need to anticipate 00:23:13 yeah thankfully i can skimp on that at first 00:23:19 but i think you dont actually need to worry too much is what im saying 00:23:23 due to my test objects being measured in kilobytes of text :P 00:23:27 mycroftiv: yeah 00:23:32 your idea of total persistence and versioning of everything - i think its actually real world practical 00:23:34 definitely though something like an HD video editor will want to throw away data a lot 00:23:36 Things from Napoli are called Neopolitan (in English). I feel they should be called Napoleon. Discuss. 00:23:47 because i mean in cases like that 00:23:51 actually being able to use it trumps usability 00:23:54 if you know what i mean 00:23:59 GregorR-L: lawl 00:24:31 ehird: yeah it seems like being able to say 'ok dont version/make persistent this particular 5 minute video im watching on a porn site' is probably something you want to allow 00:24:39 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Connection timed out). 00:24:45 since you said total freedom for the user is a base design principle 00:24:51 yeah, it is 00:24:52 though 00:24:57 I'm more a gnome man than kde 00:25:09 so I definitely don't think edgecases need to be accounted for in the interface 00:25:12 as opposed to manually telling the object something 00:25:25 i.e. you can do anything, it just might not be pretty 00:26:09 but that's just a standard UI compromise 00:26:13 you could always make a new one for a new purpose 00:26:17 and transition your objects over 00:26:20 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:27:11 away for a bit now, thanks for explaining some more of the concepts to me 00:27:40 np :) 00:27:43 btw is there any name for this other than 'ehird's crazy persistent/versioned/rich object os' ? 00:28:02 mycroftiv: hehehe where do i start 00:28:09 naming is the hardest part of any project 00:28:13 no doubt 00:28:19 and i totally suck at it 00:28:36 let's call it foop or zoop or something for the sake of it 00:28:43 sure, just to give it a conventional label 00:29:02 i bet if you google though someone has already stolen the foop/zoop namespace for software projects 00:29:11 i meant temporarily 00:29:13 of course it's taken 00:29:52 zfoop? fzoop? zoopf? foopz? 00:30:34 bunny 00:30:37 let's call it bunny. 00:30:39 or kitten. 00:30:41 something like that 00:30:45 i vote for kitten 00:30:55 since im already rather involved with a bunny-associated os (insert glenda.jpg) 00:31:48 i dont have anything computer related filed though under 'kitten' or kittens mentally 00:32:00 one thing though 00:32:05 I am not using lolcats as a splash screen. 00:32:25 (vacuously true in a way; I'm not using any splash screen because in 1-2 seconds after it gets control it's in the state you left it in0 00:32:25 good, that means i dont have to commit physical violence if i ever meet you in person : 00:32:29 d/0$/)/ 00:32:43 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:38:42 Things from Napoli are called Neopolitan (in English). I feel they should be called Napoleon. Discuss. 00:39:13 first we need to move Napoli to Corsica. which might be better than next to Vesuvius, anyhow. 00:47:15 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 00:49:24 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:00:32 I concur. I want Napoleon ice cream. 01:01:41 Shaped like Napoleon! 01:01:44 (Actual size) 01:02:12 Hahah. 01:02:56 mm 01:05:19 ehird: still not that big >_> 01:05:48 yeah, ego burn to the grave, holmes 01:06:04 * oerjan swats Gracenotes for perpetuating the myth -----### 01:06:20 hey. his height was below average 01:07:04 people perpetuate myths all the time, don't they? For example, that any Eskimo language has 50 words for snow or something? 01:07:24 myths that are an essential part of our cultural discourse 01:07:34 don't knock the myth. or napolean ice cream. 01:07:41 *o 01:08:27 ALSO WASHINGTON NEVER TOLD A LIE 01:09:43 "British propaganda depicted Napoleon as much smaller than average height and this image persists. Confusion about his height also results from the difference between the French pouce and British inch.2.71 and 2.54 cm respectively; he was 1.7 metres (5 ft 7 in) tall, average height for the period." 01:10:09 from infallopedia. 01:10:21 cultural discourse 01:10:45 dayum they used some crazy units back then. clearly the metric system is superior! 01:19:10 -!- Azstal has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:10 -!- ehird has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:10 -!- dbc has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:10 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:10 -!- sebbu has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:10 -!- Leonidas has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:10 -!- fungot has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:10 -!- Deewiant has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:10 -!- oerjan has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:10 -!- Slereah has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- GregorR has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- oklopil has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- rodgort has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- MizardX has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- Dewio has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- olsner has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- Robdgreat has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- jix has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- Xiin has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- GregorR-L has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- coppro has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- randomity has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- ineiros has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- cmeme has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- pikhq has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- Gracenotes has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- puzzlet has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- augur has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:11 -!- comex has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:12 -!- Ilari has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:12 -!- evenant has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:12 -!- olegfink has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:12 -!- EgoBot has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:12 -!- mycroftiv has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:12 -!- mtve has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:12 -!- SimonRC has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:12 -!- fizzie has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:12 -!- AnMaster has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:19:12 -!- ski__ has quit (Nick collision). 01:19:12 -!- ski__ has joined. 01:19:12 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 01:19:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:19:12 -!- jix has joined. 01:19:12 -!- Slereah has joined. 01:19:12 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 01:19:12 -!- coppro has joined. 01:19:12 -!- ehird has joined. 01:19:12 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 01:19:12 -!- Azstal has joined. 01:19:12 -!- puzzlet has joined. 01:19:12 -!- evenant has joined. 01:19:12 -!- AnMaster has joined. 01:19:12 -!- fizzie has joined. 01:19:12 -!- MizardX has joined. 01:19:12 -!- rodgort has joined. 01:19:12 -!- olegfink has joined. 01:19:12 -!- olsner has joined. 01:19:12 -!- Dewio has joined. 01:19:12 -!- Robdgreat has joined. 01:19:12 -!- augur has joined. 01:19:12 -!- oklopil has joined. 01:19:12 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 01:19:12 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:19:12 -!- cmeme has joined. 01:19:12 -!- Xiin has joined. 01:19:12 -!- comex has joined. 01:19:12 -!- Ilari has joined. 01:19:12 -!- randomity has joined. 01:19:12 -!- ineiros has joined. 01:19:12 -!- SimonRC has joined. 01:19:12 -!- mtve has joined. 01:19:12 -!- EgoBot has joined. 01:19:12 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 01:19:12 -!- GregorR has joined. 01:19:12 -!- fungot has joined. 01:19:12 -!- Deewiant has joined. 01:19:12 -!- Leonidas has joined. 01:19:12 -!- dbc has joined. 01:19:12 -!- sebbu has joined. 01:19:12 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 01:19:13 slipping away like that 01:19:39 "RELATED: I'VE INVENTED THE WORST MIXED DRINK EVER." >_< 01:21:16 Gracenotes: actually. 01:21:22 I've used metric all my life. 01:21:32 I recently discovered the joys of the inch. (Shut up that is not an innuendo) 01:21:47 NOW it is. 01:23:21 Gracenotes: kph vs m/s? 01:23:26 Methinks Randall made an ERROR! 01:23:38 wait, impossible! 01:23:39 whar!! 01:23:43 :D 01:23:45 SAVE IT NOW 01:23:48 BEFORE HE FIXES IT 01:23:51 HE IS *EVERYWHERE* 01:24:10 `calc 5 km/h in m/s 01:24:11 there are several xkcd sockpuppets in this channel currently 01:24:18 for instance, ehird 01:24:27 who momentarily patched one of the comics 01:24:30 to fuck with everyone 01:24:32 * oerjan swats HackEgo for absence -----### 01:24:42 EXATRY AS PRANNED 01:25:04 5 km/h = 1.38888889 meters / second 01:25:24 a little off 01:25:28 oh 01:25:29 m = meters 01:25:30 not miles :D 01:25:42 wait 01:25:45 7 meters a second? 01:25:56 oerjan: also not km 01:25:57 kph 01:26:02 `calc 25 kph in meters/second 01:26:04 `calc 5 kph in meters/second 01:26:44 !haskell 7 * 3.6 01:26:47 25.2 01:27:13 but 01:27:16 kph = km/hour, colloquially 01:27:17 who can run 7 meters a second? 01:27:18 :P 01:27:24 oerjan: not kilometers? 01:27:25 well 01:27:29 that doesn't make sense as conversion 01:27:29 :P 01:27:36 km = kilometer 01:27:46 are you being dense? 01:28:27 oh 01:28:28 duh 01:28:35 oerjan: also, stfu 01:29:05 See The Fine Understatement 01:30:05 * oerjan learns more about the nasal infix 01:30:20 surprisingly nothing to do with piercing. 01:30:46 meow 01:41:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 01:51:01 kilomiles :) 01:51:48 yeah :D 01:53:44 oerjan 01:53:48 who told you about the nasal infix? 01:53:52 someone on isharia linked to that 01:53:54 just today 02:07:17 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:19:07 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:25:46 -!- Asztal has joined. 02:25:48 -!- coppro has joined. 02:31:27 -!- augur_ has joined. 02:31:27 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:36:08 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:42:21 -!- meanburrito920_ has joined. 02:49:10 -!- ehird has quit. 02:54:53 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 02:56:21 -!- Asztal has joined. 03:38:02 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:38:47 -!- pikhq has joined. 03:53:39 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:56:38 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:04:29 -!- pikhq__ has joined. 04:04:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:11:03 -!- pikhq__ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:11:44 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 04:12:03 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:14:05 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:14:38 who told you about the nasal infix? 04:14:50 wikipedia's Did You Know section 04:15:30 augur_: ^ 04:15:53 huh. 04:15:55 that explains it! 04:15:57 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 04:18:34 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Success). 04:20:07 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:20:27 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:31:08 -!- Halph has joined. 04:31:59 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:32:03 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 05:46:54 -!- meanburrito920_ has quit ("Leaving"). 05:53:07 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 06:14:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 06:14:54 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:26:39 -!- quickerfiya has joined. 07:00:01 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:00:51 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:23:33 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 07:24:34 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:46:45 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 07:47:41 -!- coppro has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:07:58 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 08:10:46 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 08:12:22 so. I noticed some behavior in ChatZilla I didn't like. I opened the source jar and modified the JS file with the behavior. I restarted. Now I am content. THAT IS THE POWER OF CHATZILLA (behold) 08:12:55 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 08:13:37 -!- quickerfiya has left (?). 08:20:30 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 08:26:28 -!- coppro has joined. 08:53:10 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:19:27 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 09:28:37 -!- augur_ has joined. 09:28:37 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:43:25 err what is the power of chatzille, that it's open source? 09:46:45 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:47:20 -!- Judofyr has joined. 09:55:16 ehird: who can run 7 meters a second? <<< i can 10:17:52 -!- Pthing has joined. 10:38:46 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:47:00 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:08:07 -!- Gracenotes has changed nick to Apoyaturas. 11:24:51 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:32:28 -!- Apoyaturas has changed nick to Gracenotes. 11:40:04 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:41:34 -!- coppro has joined. 12:35:11 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:39:27 -!- coppro has joined. 12:59:01 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:16:15 -!- ehird has joined. 13:16:26 Hey 13:16:28 Eso people 13:16:42 Do you know how to make the taskbar reappear on windows 7? 13:16:51 Just relaunching Explorer doesn't seem to work 13:17:02 Restart. 13:17:39 Well, that was my last resort 13:17:43 00:12:22 so. I noticed some behavior in ChatZilla I didn't like. I opened the source jar and modified the JS file with the behavior. I restarted. Now I am content. THAT IS THE POWER OF CHATZILLA (behold) 13:17:44 lisp machine bitch 13:17:46 But I wondered if there was a simpler way 13:22:04 -!- Slereah has quit. 13:22:18 Apparently, I'm only allowed to be on the computer for an hour. My dad said he's going to ask my "grandmother" how long I was on the computer 13:22:19 -!- jix has joined. 13:24:44 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:26:10 "grandmother" 13:32:52 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:33:49 "just wondering what else can get in thru code reviews. you guys... ah, better not to 13:33:49 say anything. such a nice application and now this. there should be more buzz about 13:33:49 it to make less people using chromium, such a insecure bullshit, where everybody can 13:33:49 commit whatever. today it's creepy face, tomorrow it will be malicious code, nice work." 13:40:24 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:41:18 "Well, the problem is that there are minors playing this game and if that type of chat is allowed, maybe only age 18 and over should be allowed." 13:41:26 http://www.epicmafia.com/forum/thread/1000 13:41:32 (Might need to login to read) 13:50:38 Firstly, who the fuck are these imaginary minors who can't stand "filth"? 13:50:45 Secondly, what has this got to do with #esoteric? 13:51:14 :P 13:52:26 Sgeo: oh boy "How do you do that? Charge $2 a month payable by credit/debit card." 13:52:30 * ehird claps 13:52:36 Lose. 13:52:40 belly bum bottom balls 13:52:46 boobies 13:52:54 are you corrupted yet 13:53:06 Cunting fuckshit! That doesn't actually make any sense but it sounds fun. 13:53:18 (Cunt isn't a verb, and fuck isn't an adjective.) 13:54:04 Pthing: But yes, I'm tragically corrupted due to the evils of the interwebs. 13:54:11 :P 13:57:35 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:01:45 * Sgeo only swore once on EpicMafia, and that was because my scumbuddies gave me a code to use to let them know the role of the person we killed 14:01:55 Good for you. 14:33:18 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:33:49 -!- puzzlet has joined. 14:45:13 http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/05/090531-crapgadgets-01.jpg 14:45:24 The ear of a cat usbmomory 15:13:21 "As far as Apple is concerned, the Black Hat 2009 hackers conference didn't end soon enough. Having promptly patched the iPhone vulnerability, Cupertino is facing another security hole, this time in its keyboards. A hacker going by the pseudonym of K. Chen has come up with a way, using HIDFirmwareUpdaterTool, to inject malicious code into the keyboard's firmware." 15:13:27 2009: The age of keyboard viruses. 15:35:58 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:36:33 -!- Hiato has left (?). 15:36:48 -!- oklofok has joined. 15:40:09 -!- Hiato has joined. 15:41:53 hi oklofok 15:43:04 fuckshit doesn't require fuck to be an adjective though 15:44:08 also hi 15:45:30 oklofok: does though! 15:50:20 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:53:51 -!- oklopil has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:54:48 in fact it requires it not to be an adjective 15:59:52 oklofok: no 15:59:55 "quickshit" 16:06:30 -!- Hiato has quit ("underflow"). 16:15:59 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 16:19:16 hmm indeed. still, a noun is what you'd normally have there, like you know "cockshit". 16:23:26 -!- impomatic has joined. 16:23:29 Hi :-) 16:24:04 ^ul (:^):^ 16:24:05 ...out of time! 16:24:17 oklofok: cockshit doesn't make sense though 16:24:20 unless it's a neologism 16:24:26 * impomatic wonders if that's the smallest infinite loop 16:24:27 hi impomatic, we're talking about the semantics of curses 16:24:31 also, yes. 16:25:24 Hmmm... 16:26:55 impomatic: it's trivial to prove 16:27:12 the only way to branch is via ^ 16:27:20 so we need, at the minimum, ()^ 16:27:27 now, what goes inside? 16:27:29 an infinite loop 16:27:38 which we know needs a ^ 16:27:42 (()^)^ 16:27:45 what goes inside? 16:27:49 and we see that this reduces to, infinitely, 16:27:51 (:^):^ 16:29:06 :-) 16:30:24 :^) 16:34:24 ^ul ((0)(1))(~^:S~:S:*a~:*a*~:^):^ 16:34:25 101100111100001111111100000000111111111111111100000000000000001111111111111111111111111111111100000000000000000000000000000000111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...too much output! 16:35:58 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:36:07 ^ul ((.)(1))(~^:S~:Sa~:*a*~:^):^ 16:36:07 1.11.1111.11111111.1111111111111111.11111111111111111111111111111111.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111.11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...too much output! 16:36:28 Having fun with the un-est of Lambdas? 16:39:36 That's Underload, not Unlambda. :P 16:40:41 Hush. 16:43:20 "I've noticed that as I copy data/install programs on my Laptop, the weight of the Laptop increases." 16:43:29 It's all the bits! 16:45:42 [[This is a rare error when the overwriting mechanism of the memory banks lead to an overflow of data because it cannot add on and thus super-stack, increasing the weight significantly. While normal weight/file ratio is approximately 0.02 oz/GB, in rare cases such as these, it can go as high as somewhere around 6 oz/GB. 16:45:43 One solution is going to the system32 folder (C:\WINDOWS\system32) and deleting certain unnecessary files, but too much tampering may cause permanent changes to your computer.]] 16:49:18 XD 16:56:47 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 16:58:57 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:06:32 -!- impomatic has left (?). 17:08:18 ^ul (*)(~:S( / )S:*~:^):^ 17:08:19 * / ** / **** / ******** / **************** / ******************************** / **************************************************************** / ******************************************************************************************************************************** / ********************************************* ...too much output! 17:08:28 MizardX: I golf you! 17:10:16 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:11:00 It doesn't get much shorter than that. 17:11:27 The exception being the whitespace. 17:17:29 MizardX: No whitespace in mine. 17:17:32 That's part of the output. 17:18:02 ^ul (1)(~:S(.)S:*~:^):^ 17:18:03 1.11.1111.11111111.1111111111111111.11111111111111111111111111111111.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111.11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 ...too much output! 17:18:14 Yes, but that's not the same prorgam. 17:22:30 raptorial 17:22:30 adjective 17:22:30 *Like or resembling a raptor. 17:23:20 * Sgeo sees proof that the Python documentation people aren't perfect 17:24:56 [[But Ninjawords for iPhone suffers one humiliating flaw: it omits all the words deemed “objectionable” by Apple’s App Store reviewers, despite the fact that Ninjawords carries a 17+ rating. 17:24:56 Apple censored an English dictionary.]] 17:24:59 Jesus fucking christ. 17:25:05 I want to throw my iPhone out of the window. 17:25:55 "Do not put the baby in the Dinosaur Comics". Opinions? 17:26:50 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 17:26:55 pikhq: Needs more funny. 17:27:01 Ah. 17:28:57 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:31:08 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 17:31:08 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:38:58 ^ul (*)(~:S(*)*( / )S~:^):^ 17:38:58 * / ** / *** / **** / ***** / ****** / ******* / ******** / ********* / ********** / *********** / ************ / ************* / ************** / *************** / **************** / ***************** / ****************** / ******************* / ******************** / ********************* / ********************** / ***** ...too much output! 17:39:19 Hmm. 17:39:24 * ehird hacks up a binary counter 17:39:46 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 17:40:00 mrj 17:40:01 meh 17:41:57 -!- augur has joined. 17:46:46 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 17:48:57 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:59:39 -!- jix has joined. 18:00:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:13:30 -!- Azstal has joined. 18:16:51 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 18:16:58 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal. 18:21:43 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 18:21:59 ehird: The prgmr system I'm on went kablooie last night and it hasn't been fixed yet. 18:22:02 To this I say WHOOT. 18:22:11 codu.org is being hosted on my home system right now :P 18:22:15 xD 18:22:25 -!- Azstal has joined. 18:22:44 GregorR-L: Well, I guess it's a good thing codu.org is not absurdly popular? ;P 18:22:52 lonelydino.com is gettin' there. 18:23:03 It has 7 comics. 18:23:09 There is no way it can be absurdly popular. 18:23:14 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:23:16 -!- augur has joined. 18:23:19 Being linked from qwantz.com = instant popular :P 18:23:22 ehird: Compared with codu.org. 18:23:29 And yes, it was linked from Qwantz. 18:23:32 GregorR-L: Like, like, THOUSANDS of hits! 18:23:43 Pfft@ehird 18:23:43 His point. 18:24:04 That's thousands of people who totally don't want to see "Cannot connect to lonelydino.com" 18:24:07 Sorry, I'm just an old fart who TRULY KNOWS WHAT IT IS LIKE TO BE #1 ON DIGG AND HAVE /B/ NOTICE. 18:25:19 Yeah, well I'm wearing a fuchsia shirt with a gold tie. 18:25:21 SO I WIN. 18:25:49 o 18:26:04 I can has in-state tuition now. 18:26:04 T3h w00ts. 18:26:23 Oh shit it has hover-over text 18:26:28 * ehird rereads them all 18:27:22 GregorR-L: All the hover texts suck and you should eliminate them. 18:27:30 :P 18:33:36 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out). 18:34:55 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:46:57 I didn't know about the second hidden text on qwantz.com until recently :( 18:47:35 -!- Azstal has changed nick to Asztal. 18:48:18 Azstal: Which, the RSS title? 18:48:28 Huh... 18:48:39 Fun fact: Windows does not need the .exe extension to execute a file. 18:48:47 O_O 18:48:50 Since when? 18:49:02 It works at least in NT OSes. 18:49:23 Apparently, it just cares if it's a valid PE file. 18:49:51 So, Cygwin could be built without ".exe" files all over the place. 18:50:35 GregorR: not the RSS title :D 18:50:54 although, I've missed those too since I don't use the RSS feed 18:51:03 If it's not the RSS title or the title text, I don't know to what you refer 18:51:33 GregorR-L: Look at the "contact" link in the top row :) 18:51:51 D-8 18:52:43 Hahaha, what's great is that's actually worded as a message to Ryan. 18:54:07 didn't they use to all be in the title 18:54:10 with two lines separating them 18:59:07 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:08:06 Well, looks like my backups worked, and Codu2 is totally working, albeit only temporary until prgmr comes back. I'm getting spam again; hooray? 19:09:54 -!- augur has joined. 19:10:42 Ugh, bye all 19:11:37 -!- Sgeo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:12:31 -!- kar8nga has joined. 19:20:22 -!- ehird has quit. 19:32:19 -!- ehird has joined. 19:34:24 -!- olsner has joined. 19:34:46 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit). 19:34:59 -!- ehird has joined. 19:37:46 -!- Xiin has quit ("leaving"). 19:38:35 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:38:39 oklopol: hi :) 19:38:57 kind of a coincidence 19:39:07 "kind of", yeah :P 19:39:17 I'm actually always here whenever I'm online 19:39:18 -!- augur_ has joined. 19:39:23 well i met my neighbor on #proglangdesign, so 19:40:38 i'm on wfg because a guy i know likes to conquer Q'less channels, why are you there? 19:41:05 oh #proglangdesign that stupid copy of us 19:41:05 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:41:17 oklopol: oh, so you're one of the evil squatters then 19:41:18 -!- augur_ has joined. 19:41:26 wfg? 19:41:31 yes :D 19:41:34 I'm in #wfg because I'm actually involved in it 19:41:35 Q-less? 19:41:39 Sounds like QuakeNet 19:42:50 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:42:52 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:43:07 olsner: i can probably ask bcz to give you the flags, in care you care 19:43:09 *case 19:43:29 Yay for half-conversations. 19:43:31 except i need to do something now -> 19:45:05 what's wfg 19:45:17 no idea 19:45:24 olsner what's wf 19:45:25 wfg 19:45:40 wild fire games 19:46:13 sounds stupid 19:47:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:48:43 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 19:49:51 -!- augur has joined. 19:58:50 splorkodynamics 20:00:33 olsner: am i to understand you don't negotiate with terrorists? 20:01:18 i negotiate with terriers 20:01:35 oklopol: anyway how do you "conquer" a channel just cuz it doesn't have a Q 20:01:36 may be kinda boring via irc 20:01:43 oklopol: I am not currently engaged in a negotiation, no :P 20:01:47 ehird: you can ask for ops if there are none 20:01:54 well that's stoopid 20:02:38 olsner: i'm just asking if the channel is actually important to you, while bcz probably doesn't give a shit, i do. 20:03:13 oklopol: your friend sure sounds like a boring person 20:03:25 "what should i do" "i know, i'll conquer quakenet channels!" 20:03:53 it's just another kind of trolling 20:03:59 err yes, that's the general opinion 20:04:01 90% of trolling is boring 20:04:23 but no, he's not boring, least boring guy i know 20:04:50 probably a fairly bored person though 20:04:55 boioioioioioioioiring 20:07:22 anyway that's what quakenet is for, why use it if you're not going to use it right 20:07:35 quakenet is just a shoddy efnet 20:07:43 efnet is where the anarchy @ 20:08:30 i don't know much about efnet 20:09:04 think i've just used it for joining channels like #sex and gathering asl statistics 20:09:15 oklopol: efnet's basically entirely anarchy, yeah there are ircops that rule with an iron fist, but that's just part of the game, not any sort of meta rule enforcement 20:09:59 if i understood you correctly, that's exactly how qnet works too, if you takeover a channel, it's yours, the ops don't give a shit 20:10:15 oklopol: sure but efnet's anarchy goes beyond that 20:10:24 how? 20:10:24 i mean i don't even know if there are network-wide rules but they sure as hell aren't enforced 20:10:41 oklopol: because it's just a bunch of servers wantonly connecting to each other and bits being flipped without human regard for just about anything 20:10:44 qnet's quite similar 20:10:47 but it's younger 20:10:52 so shoddy ripoff either way :D 20:10:55 right 20:11:38 wantonly has been promoted to your word of the month btw 20:11:50 damn did i say wantonly beforehand 20:12:09 you've used it 3 times so that i've seen, i think 20:12:27 which i know because i read it as like "by want-only basis" at first and i was like what 20:12:30 i guess you could say that 20:12:31 i'm using it 20:12:33 WANTONLY 20:12:40 HAHHA 20:12:54 lol amirite 20:13:00 xD 20:13:16 anyway more watching random stuff -> 20:13:29 oklopol: but I'm wantonly beforehanding, amirite 20:15:01 like completively 20:25:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 20:25:29 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s3d1LfjWCI 20:25:30 Ho shit. 20:25:42 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:25:49 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 20:36:08 that's pretty cool 20:36:46 and he didn't even have to do anything super fancy, i'm a little curious how a* is applied there, i never had thought about that algorithm in terms of say, platforming 20:38:08 evenant: yeah it is cool 20:38:12 i'm thinking of trying one myself 20:38:17 I think a semi-pacifist AI could work well 20:38:21 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:38:26 i.e. optimise for paths that avoid interacting with monsters 20:38:35 -!- augur has joined. 20:38:39 i'm pretty sure it's possible to make a perfect ai that works on all solvable mario levels 20:40:07 -!- augur_ has joined. 20:40:07 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:48:04 how is using a* with that any different from using it with another 2d map 20:49:29 well, it doesn't incorporate moving objects really, but you can easily run a complete search between every frame, so doesn't really matter 20:51:38 it isn't, i just never thought of it that way 20:51:46 ehird: Now, if it incorporated the walk-through-walls glitch, I would be impressed. 20:51:57 i wouldn't 20:52:11 but i would be impressed if it wasn't completely mario-specific 20:52:28 There's a few ROM-hacked Mario levels that require it. 20:52:31 pikhq: it's not the original game 20:52:36 it's randomly-generated 20:52:36 ehird: Lame. 20:52:41 -!- nooga has joined. 20:52:42 -!- coppro has joined. 20:54:12 would be fun to do something like that, unfortunately i never managed to read the content of the screen in :P 20:54:19 I wants it to play via NES emulator. 20:55:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has joined. 20:55:37 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:55:40 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 20:56:23 pikhq: you seem to be interested in trivial and boring stuff, and not very interested in interesting stuff 20:56:24 discuss 20:57:18 oklopol: What, I ask, makes you think that? 20:58:28 what? 21:00:32 pikhq: nm, nothing really :D 21:01:09 oklopol: Very well, þen. Þou art full of ſhit. Diſcuß. 21:01:33 :D 21:02:51 i cannot explain what my point was 21:03:01 would require too many words 21:03:08 łśja 21:03:11 i meant no offense :P 21:03:13 hi nooga 21:03:20 hello thar 21:03:23 didn't see you there 21:03:35 oklopol: Words are not scarce. :P 21:03:39 well i did, more like didn't notice you there 21:04:46 pikhq: i just didn't find your ideas for how to enhance that thingie very mathematically interesting; i in no way wanted to imply they should be, it was just a complex unfunny joke. 21:05:35 oklopol: It's hackerly interesting, not mathematically. 21:05:58 i know. 21:07:11 what? (too lazy to check the logs) 21:07:49 nooga: nothing, i just said something that doesn't make sense without a long explanation 21:08:01 which i haven't completely given 21:08:11 and won't. god i'm annoying to talk to 21:08:20 oh 21:09:08 you can make hackerly values mathematical, maybe 21:10:00 any new langs? 21:11:34 zilch 21:12:18 where? 21:16:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 21:30:40 lol 21:34:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.5.1/20090715094852]"). 21:34:41 "Oh, I see." 21:42:33 ńkóń 21:53:41 ńķóń 21:54:00 ńḱóń 21:59:00 nkon 22:00:29 hmm 22:02:51 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:03:17 think I'll start my os soon 22:13:08 ugh, that mario ai thing is realtime 22:13:10 you only have 40ms 22:15:06 Hm, Mario AI thing eh 22:16:29 what Mario AI thing? 22:16:46 ehird: let me guess, plan-9 clone written in haskell? 22:17:08 You can read ehird like a book. 22:17:27 nooga: Uhh, no. 22:17:30 That's written in Voynich script. 22:17:40 hahahaha 22:17:52 nooga's so close to being funny if only he had a sense of humour 22:18:30 i didn't even try to be funny right now 22:19:10 -!- coppro has joined. 22:19:29 http://thedailywtf.com/Comments/Programming-Praxis-Josephus-Circle.aspx?CommentReplies=280209 :D 22:20:03 piet isn't especially hard, is it? 22:20:36 no, but it's awesome 22:20:49 and that's a beautiful one, too 22:21:08 true 22:21:28 looks pretty, has colors, me likes colors, ugh 22:22:28 remind me to solve today's in INTERCAL 22:23:44 hmm... I don't think my library has comparisons in yet 22:25:39 Fascicle 22:26:06 testicle 22:26:24 I wish there was a button to obliterate nooga from the channel. :D 22:26:50 ehird: I refuse to use anything but my own code when I do INTERCAL 22:26:59 you could make one easily, ehird 22:27:17 coppro: That's nice? …Context? 22:27:25 coppro: Also, not even syslib.i? That's just stupid. 22:27:26 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 22:27:32 [15:23:44]hmm... I don't think my library has comparisons in yet 22:27:34 [15:25:39]Fascicle 22:27:43 Yeah, uh, fascicle was just a random word I said. 22:27:45 I do that a lot. 22:27:51 oh 22:28:28 Yeah, uh, testicle was just a random word I said... I do that A LOT 22:28:32 dziwko! 22:28:42 ;> 22:29:03 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:29:31 nooga: how could I easily make this obliteration button? 22:29:37 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:29:56 step 1: get +o 22:30:08 damn I wish I had secret op rights so I could +o myself now 22:30:12 and say "Done." 22:30:26 step 2: rewrite limechat to create such button that sends apropriate command to channel 22:30:34 step 3: ?????? 22:30:40 step 4: PROFIT! 22:30:42 What would editing LimeChat.app do for me? 22:31:41 display a button (with caption "obliterate nooga from the channel" if needed) that would send +b for me ? 22:31:52 -!- Sgeo has joined. 22:32:13 But how would I invoke that from my IRC client? 22:32:59 Well? 22:33:06 oh, just use limechat in that marvelous moment 22:33:15 modified limechat with button 22:33:18 But I don't use LimeChat. 22:34:42 weren't you the one who recommended limechat to me 22:34:46 Yes. 22:35:12 okay, quite logical 22:37:38 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:37:57 -!- nooga has joined. 22:38:26 uh, limechat just crashed 22:42:54 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:45:59 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzSRVgF501M 22:54:05 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:54:05 -!- ehird has quit. 22:57:22 -!- augur_ has changed nick to augur. 23:01:55 -!- ehird has joined. 23:02:13 14:45:59 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzSRVgF501M 23:02:18 firstly that's not a hallucinogen 23:02:21 secondly old :P 23:02:40 * Sgeo first found out about it today, so it 23:02:44 it's not old to me 23:03:42 it's interesting though 23:03:49 but the effects only last about 3-5 seconds 23:04:01 not nearly trippy enough :) 23:04:32 For me, the effect is strong, but yeah, 1:40 for 5 seconds of effect is meh 23:04:47 5-10sec 23:05:26 Then again, people do that with food. Hours of cooking, for maybe 30min of eating 23:05:41 yeah but 30min of eating is way more enjoyable than 5 seconds of warping 23:05:47 and cooking can be fun 23:05:55 * Sgeo doesn't find eating to be enjoyable :/ 23:06:09 then either you eat bad food or have issues 23:06:22 I think the latter 23:06:22 anyway, Sgeo, I've seen better versions of that effect 23:06:23 a little weaker, but only take 15-30s 23:06:31 ehird, ooh, where? 23:06:39 all over the internet 23:06:53 i mean it's uberfamous 23:07:07 for instance 23:07:07 http://zecina.blogspot.com/2009/04/warp-illusion.html 23:07:10 "Using slow motion causes a longer and stronger trip." 23:07:13 googled "warping illusion" on google 23:07:16 ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcSUrdipBY8 ) 23:07:20 Don't know if that's true 23:07:37 the blogspot one i linked to is more spiky 23:07:38 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 23:08:05 Sgeo: effects can linger btw 23:08:16 for instance my computer's UI elements bulged almost imperceptably for seconds after 23:08:25 heh 23:08:45 ehird: that's quite normal since you're using mac 23:08:46 Sgeo: have you seen that thing where you stare at one image and stare at another which gives it colours, and even five years later the colours are still there without looking at the trigger? 23:08:51 nooga: hur hur hur 23:09:12 ehird, um, what? I've seen that thing before, but the effects don't last 5 years 23:09:24 it's another thing, then 23:09:28 it was specifically deigned and researched 23:09:55 comment on that slow video: 23:09:57 [[if i look at a shadow its fuck are it could be the acid fuck maybe it not wise to wacth these while high on acid what the fuck am i typein who am i typein to why am i typin]] 23:10:02 yeah I think it's the acid not the video. 23:10:29 lol 23:10:31 acid is overrated 23:11:50 Sgeo: thing augur told me about, 23:12:01 if you put on glasses that make everything upside down, you'll be disoriented at first 23:12:03 for a day or two 23:12:06 but then, everything is fine 23:12:12 and if a week or two later you take them off? 23:12:15 Everything seems upside down. 23:12:25 And you have to relearn what's the right way up. 23:12:39 oklopol should do that, he's the only one crazy enough 23:15:12 Shouldn't it only take a day or two to get reoriented? 23:15:23 sure 23:15:26 No, the longer video didn't have longer lasting effects for me :( 23:15:29 but who knows what it could fuck up in your brain 23:15:50 i bet you'd have to relearn left/right from scratch, for instance 23:15:54 which is not as easy as it sounds... 23:16:14 * Sgeo has had issues with left/right when he was younger 23:16:16 >.> 23:17:39 Sgeo: my mother still has to think to remember which is which 23:17:47 it's depressing 23:19:35 http://frogger11758.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/left-left-left-right-left/ 23:20:27 "I wonder if this is an Aspie trait or simply an idiosyncracy of mine." 23:20:40 God, I hate people who ascribe everything to the vague notion of Asperger's syndrome. 23:20:41 Hate hate hate. 23:20:54 There's a word for that guy's condition; it's "can't tell left from right". 23:21:23 ...hence the wonder, and not "It's because I'm an Aspie" 23:21:55 I really don't care, such association is completely unfounded and just further muddies the definition of the psychological equivalent of a pile of mud 23:21:57 Yesterday reading my own written driving instructions I turned right instead of left, and even reading it multiple times I could have SWORN it was a right arrow. Does that mean I have Asperger's? 23:21:58 s/$/./ 23:22:02 GregorR-L: Yes. 23:22:03 -!- coppro has joined. 23:22:13 Being a geek and/or different and/or strange = YOU HAVE ASPERGER'S SYNDROME! 23:22:45 ....I'm pretty sure that this person was diagnosed with AS 23:22:56 My point 23:22:57 23:22:57 23:22:57 23:22:57 23:22:57 23:22:59 Your head 23:23:23 Oh, you weren't talking about Cale in particular >.> 23:24:05 Most of what I said still applies. 23:24:19 And diagnosing someone with a pile of mud doesn't make it any less mdudy. 23:24:22 muddy. 23:24:26 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHydHfs8mmo "Do not participate in this video several times in a short space of time" 23:24:27 o.O 23:24:50 You can tell it's a serious warning because it has a cannabis leaf. 23:25:06 lol that's recorded from a screen 23:25:07 you can tell 23:25:15 with a camera 23:25:19 where's the table, I ask you 23:25:22 lol 23:26:00 $attempt_to_indicate_that_I_get_the_reference_without_being_able_to_come_up_with_a_suitable_reference_myself 23:26:01 then who was phone? 23:26:27 nooga: dude, that doesn't even fucking fit 23:27:10 oh it's just a random phrase 23:27:12 nooga, http://www.creepypasta.com/yeah-so-quit-asking/ 23:27:29 i tend to speak random phrases sometimes 23:27:45 Sgeo: ahh the first image in the header is the devil's bible 23:27:48 i hate that image 23:27:52 creeps me out 23:29:30 why 23:29:36 devils bible is fun 23:29:44 shut up 23:31:03 ehird, its more like a week of disorientation 23:31:06 gradually decreasing ofcourse 23:31:17 augur: when you put on the glasses or after taking them off? 23:31:21 also, has this actually been tried? 23:31:26 both 23:31:28 right 23:31:28 and yes 23:31:36 by whom? link? any lingering effects at the end? 23:31:51 i dont remember by who, and no, no lingering effects 23:33:14 augur: what i want to know is, does your brain actually end up flipping the image for you, so that it appears normal (not that you could really tell), or do you actually get an intuitive sense for the directions? 23:33:31 i can't imagine feeling my arm going leftwards and associating that with anything other than what i see now as left 23:33:36 that question does not infact make sense. 23:33:45 despite the obvious sensicality of it. 23:34:02 ehird: shut up <-- he's afraid of the devil ;D 23:34:09 nooga: no, that image is just creepy 23:34:12 augur: :P 23:36:25 the world has no inherent up and down. we have gravity here on earth, sure, and your brain correlates sensed direction of gravity with motion in your visual inputs, but the "image" isn't flipped, etc. if you hung yourself upside, in a room that was upside down, the image would be "right side up", but it would FEEL upside down. and eventually, as your brain adjusts to the change in gravity, you would not be able to distingui 23:36:28 sh anything as being different from how it was, i think 23:36:36 but it wouldnt "flip" in any sense 23:36:52 its like talking about flipping an image in your computer. not on your SCREEN, but in the computer, in the binary representation. 23:36:55 binary has no up or down 23:36:57 it makes no sense. 23:37:23 We could call the direction that gravity pulls in the world's "down" 23:37:30 right, i said that 23:37:39 well, i said that we have gravity 23:37:43 calling that down changes nothing 23:38:33 your experience of the visual stuff aligned in one way or another is the result of how that data correlates with other sensory data, but the sum total of that data has no "down" independent of how the data coheres 23:39:04 i know 23:39:11 it just upsets me we can't ask these questions 23:39:17 you can ask them 23:39:23 augur: "Down" is a direction that only has meaning regarding a frame of reference. That's about it. Whoo. 23:39:24 ehird: oklopol should do that, he's the only one crazy enough <<< i've thought about doing that many times, but i don't have the glasses to do it. 23:39:24 but the answer is that there is no answer. :) 23:39:31 and scares me that our minds are so... 23:39:33 goedelian 23:39:38 also i've heard it takes a lot more than a few days 23:39:42 ehird: wat 23:39:48 if anything it should turn you on! 23:39:50 augur: as in, we couldn't detect a serious cognitive change from inside that cognition 23:40:00 well we could actually 23:40:06 and we can't observe those cognitive changes from outside 23:40:10 very Reflections on Trusting Trust 23:40:14 because we would observe a difference in how things cohere 23:40:23 orly? how would you detect the flip change 23:40:37 well you'd detect it at FIRST by the fact that the image would appear upside down to you 23:40:42 your brain has to adjust 23:40:42 nonono 23:40:45 you got amnesia 23:40:50 but the image on your retina is ALREADY upside down. 23:40:51 because they wiped your memories of adjusting 23:41:01 ok, well, in that case, so what? 23:41:14 your experience of the world before and after is no different 23:41:18 I care about plenty of questions of that sort 23:41:22 e.g. quantum mechanics interpretation 23:41:25 all thats different is whether your retinas are bigendian or littleendian 23:41:33 augur: aha, so 23:41:39 the image ISN'T subjectively flipped 23:41:40 so to speak 23:41:41 as in 23:41:43 the cognitive experience we get 23:41:45 is exactly the same 23:41:56 right, sort of 23:41:58 not just our mappings being readjusted but not the visuals 23:42:04 i mean 23:42:07 well 23:42:11 but the visuals ARE the mappings 23:42:12 thats all there is 23:42:17 blue2_light.bmp: PNG image data, 512 x 512, 8-bit/color RGB, non-interlaced <-- someone fails at file extensions :D 23:42:18 i know that 23:42:20 but it doesn't feel like that 23:42:21 i mean 23:42:24 it feels like we have a bitmap image in front of us 23:42:27 well ofcourse it doesnt 23:42:27 and interpret it cognitively 23:42:38 because our brain processes the content of the data 23:42:39 not the form 23:42:39 it doesn't feel like what i see is my cognitive representation 23:43:01 i mean, its like the brain has a native jpeg interpreter 23:43:09 and doesnt need to render out to a bit map to do facial recognition 23:43:12 uh my vision is better quality than jpeg 23:43:24 anyway, I'm just saying that my vision FEELS unprocessed 23:43:25 instead, it just learnt to detect faces in the jpeg encoded data 23:43:27 it feels like i act on that 23:43:31 direct image 23:43:35 which of course is false 23:43:42 well sure it does, because you're detecting the semantics, not the encoding 23:43:50 yes 23:43:53 and you are, in a sense, acting on a direct image 23:44:16 i mean, the periphery has direct images as input 23:44:17 so basically, if you had a button that let you switch between adjusted-to-flip-with-flip and not-adjusted-without 23:44:22 then clicking it would seem to do nothing at all 23:44:34 and the patterns, the relative behaviors, are all still detectable 23:44:38 and thats what your brain cares about 23:44:40 as opposed to if the visuals were unprocessed and we acted on them, in which case there would be some sort of visual jolt 23:44:42 the correlative behavior 23:44:43 but everything would seem right 23:44:44 not the literal form 23:44:46 augur: confirm/deny 23:44:47 ehird: the image doesn't flip, but what does magically flip is what it means to move your left or right arm, because you need to adjust those to work with what you see. so to speak. as augur said, not a completely well-defined question 23:44:49 brb dinner 23:45:02 everyone should just try it out 23:45:17 oklopol: but you couldn't answer the question even subjectively 23:45:18 without resetting 23:45:23 at which point you'd have to do it again 23:45:24 and reset 23:45:28 it's impossible 23:45:31 you need both states at once to answer it 23:45:40 anyway i'm already pretty good at moving based on looking in the mirror 23:45:58 i only get practise in elevators, so progress is slow 23:46:28 you could buy a mirror. 23:46:29 it's weird how fast you can flip your left and right 23:47:09 that's not exactly skill #1 to acquire on my list. 23:47:25 ingólv 23:47:33 inglowes 23:48:10 ferflóht 23:51:16 is fer like german ver 23:51:28 is your mom like finlandic your face 23:52:51 -!- meanburrito920 has joined. 23:52:58 Oh no, it's a burrito. That is mean. 23:52:58 ehird, did you see that about wrong extension above? 23:53:15 HEY THE CORRECT TERM IS FIN*NISH* 23:53:24 god i hate your ignorance GRRR 23:53:25 oklopol: no that's the culture 23:53:27 finlandic is the place 23:53:32 AnMaster: What am I supposed to respond? 23:53:34 Hi meanburrito920. 23:53:41 NUHHUH MAN SO ISN'T 23:53:42 Hi 23:53:45 hi meanie 23:54:01 dear, i guess what ehird done here is an example of my (alleged) idiocy 23:54:06 wat 23:54:13 meanburrito920: (a) who are you, (b) what brought you here, (c) how many goats did you sacrifice? 23:54:16 oklopol, are you showing cultural ignorance of finishing? 23:54:30 …xD 23:54:33 ages ago on nooga: sega 23:54:42 is my answer. 23:55:28 look ol' polo ok? oklopol 23:55:45 ehird, (a) I am who am (b) i took a scroll down /list lane (c) i sacrificed no goats. however, i did sacrifice many cookies, who died valiantly in my tummy 23:55:51 that's not a palindrome 23:56:09 does not need to 23:56:25 meanburrito920: well it's a good thing you appear to be in programming channels because we do not yet specialise in voodoo. 23:56:36 also you came in at a great time, this channel is like this pretty much always. 23:56:54 :DSA 23:57:55 Also, oklopol's face really looks like that. 23:57:59 have i done many palindromes here? 23:58:13 no 23:58:29 no on! 23:58:33 !no on!, rather. 23:59:13 ehird: meanburrito920: (a) who are you, (b) what brought you here, (c) how many goats did you sacrifice? 23:59:20 meanburrito920: ehird, (a) I am who am (b) i took a scroll down /list lane (c) i sacrificed no goats. however, i did sacrifice many cookies, who died valiantly in my tummy 23:59:22 "th" is an annoying little bastard 23:59:24 nooga: hey i copywrit that 23:59:27 when it comes to making pals 23:59:31 (probably ehird found a new friend) 23:59:32 oklopol: htu 23:59:36 helsinki technology university 23:59:44 nooga: i have no idea what the fuck you're talking about 23:59:51 ehird: nicks, names and acronyms are cheating 23:59:55 fuck about talking 23:59:58 meanburrito920: http://esolangs.org/ btw 2009-08-06: 00:00:28 well. some palindromers actually use *initials*, so i guess a htu or two might do. 00:00:44 meanburrito920: But 'lane' isn't even in here! 00:00:56 Hyuk hyuk hyuk. 00:01:43 oh wait, so is this basically about everyone getting together and writing brainfuck? 00:01:53 hah 00:01:54 meanburrito920: Not just Brainfuck. 00:01:57 we have uhh 00:02:02 well some of us are esolang snobs 00:02:04 And only nominally. 00:02:04 and brainfuck is kinda old. 00:02:11 !help 00:02:16 meanburrito920: but mostly we talk about everything because offtopicness is a virtu 00:02:16 e 00:02:17 EgoBot is on codu, codu is down. 00:02:25 MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEH GregorR-L 00:02:28 Really, we're guys with a fondness of esolangs that talk about almost everything but esolangs. :P 00:02:34 pretty much 00:02:41 Emphasis on "guys" >_> 00:02:44 much pretty 00:02:51 Hey, we've had like two girls! 00:02:57 at least 3 00:03:00 by mistake 00:03:05 Sukoshi, that weed-smoker mathematician person recently who was here for, like, minutes 00:03:07 except i guess one of them was me 00:03:08 (two items that) 00:03:12 oklopol: HAH 00:03:16 oklopol: So you admit it! 00:03:29 it's your word against mine 00:03:40 oklopol: What, you were once a pre-op or some such? 00:04:02 pikhq: not that i know of 00:04:11 oklopol: no I always said it was you 00:04:15 and you just admitted it was you :P 00:04:17 pikhq: "hotidlerchick" 00:04:24 ehird: Ah. 00:04:30 220V on nipples! 00:04:32 i've admitted it tons of times, then unadmitted it again 00:04:35 oklopol: ... That you *know* of? 00:04:45 pikhq: oklopol can't even remember if he's ever had drugs in his life. 00:05:03 Clearly oklopol lives in a land of memory modification devices. 00:05:03 pikhq: i have no idea how i was her. 00:05:17 i had, some of them are quite cool 00:05:29 actually i have a pretty good memory 00:05:31 nooga: I've had... Caffeine, alcohol. 00:05:38 Aren't I less-than-creative. 00:05:48 i don't count caffeine and alcohol as drugs 00:06:05 why not alcohol, iirc weed is less dangerous than alcohol 00:06:07 oklopol: What *do* you count as drugs? 00:06:10 reason simply being that they usually aren't called that. i have had both 00:06:21 ... They generally are, actually. 00:06:27 no 00:06:27 pikhq: anything that gives you a high, except alcohol 00:06:33 not colloquially 00:06:34 pikhq: in some contexts 00:06:36 oklopol: so... everything? 00:06:36 yes 00:06:40 oklopol: That is a crap definition. 00:06:44 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:06:46 eh 00:06:54 god i hate you people 00:07:00 ehird: no. 00:07:08 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:07:13 We're programmers and mathematicians. What do you expect, anti-pedantry? 00:07:14 pikhq: yes. including alcohol would be better. but it's usually not included. 00:07:15 IME people on weed are fun to talk to 00:07:21 but people on alcohol are mostly fools 00:07:48 pikhq: pedantry about things you can be more creatively pedantic about than just spout the same fucking bullshit year after year 00:08:06 IMHO thc is nice, but i don't do it much, acid is awful, amphetamine is like coffee^200, huh... alcohol is stupid, nicotine is even worse 00:08:15 not referring to you in particular, i just know exactly what's to pedantize about this drug definition thing. 00:08:23 ehird: People with a dosage of alcohol that actually... Does anything? Yeah, that's just painful. 00:08:39 oklopol: So, more-or-less saying "That's old and tired. Could we move on?"? 00:08:42 ehird: i will count water as a drug in situations where someone manages to get a high off of it. 00:08:48 alcohol always intoxicates but yeah a beer or two doesn't affect most people 00:08:50 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:09:01 ehird: You know what I meant. ;) 00:09:04 pikhq: something like that. 00:09:12 i don't even see a point to drinking alcoholic drinks if you're not trying to get drunk tbh 00:09:20 well i guess some people might think they like the taste 00:09:27 ehird: erm 00:09:38 i like interesting tastes 00:09:42 that basically means i like bad tastes 00:09:45 Some people actually do enjoy the taste. 00:09:49 ehird: have you tried at least once? 00:09:58 pikhq: i think there's an element of cultural conditioning tbh 00:09:59 i would love alcoholfree vodka 00:10:07 yuck 00:10:07 good things happen around alcohol → alcohol is good 00:10:11 → alcohol tastes good 00:10:16 that would be so hc 00:10:23 good (expensive) vodka has no taste and smell 00:10:30 and it's cool 00:10:32 yeah 00:10:35 expensive water that makes you stupid 00:10:36 well i'm talking about the crappy ones that taste like death 00:10:38 ehird: There's an element of cultural conditioning in most aesthetic preferences. 00:10:38 and kills your cognitive functions 00:10:39 vodka with taste is awful 00:10:40 sounds AWESOME 00:10:50 pikhq: true. alcoholic drinks mostly taste like shit though :P 00:10:56 (am I a nerd for calling "flavor" an aesthetic preference?) 00:11:05 ehird: What have you tried? 00:11:12 ehird: wait untill your gf will break up with you 00:11:14 not much, i don't even recall much 00:11:21 don't have any inclination 00:11:28 oh, excuse me, i doubt you'll ever find oen 00:11:31 one 00:11:39 that was one helluva zinger 00:11:42 Totally. 00:11:55 nooga: Are you really such a pathetic person that the only way you can solve emotional problems is by killing your higher brain functions? 00:12:11 sometimes it's necessary 00:12:19 girls are a lot easier to pick up while sober 00:12:22 *sometimes* 00:12:25 And I thought I was pathetic. 00:12:25 That's a convincing argument nooga. 00:12:27 it's getting them drunk that matters 00:12:39 oklopol: correct 00:12:42 You need to get shitfaced when your gf breaks up with you Pathetic You have to do it sometimes!! 00:13:14 anyway i'll go do some sleeping now, you stop picking on nooga, mean mean boys 00:13:15 ok! 00:13:16 -> 00:14:02 nooga first. 00:14:14 He *really* needs to stop picking on himself. It's just pathetic. 00:14:14 :P 00:14:25 nooga: so what's your logic for me never getting a girlfriend, i'm curious 00:14:34 i can think of several hilariously stupid possible answers 00:14:50 and uncountably infinitely many unstupid ones, but I wouldn't expect you to hit one :P 00:14:52 i'd pick one of that answers 00:15:04 (stupid ones) 00:15:57 btw. 'night 00:17:36 ehird: You are to die in half an hour. 00:17:46 pikhq: err, what? 00:18:08 pikhq: ? 00:18:24 ehird: I refuse to specify in which reference frame that amount of time is accurate. 00:18:35 how did you find my death note :( 00:18:36 It is unlikely that it is yours. 00:18:39 pikhq: and, uh, what prompted this 00:18:52 ehird: Logic for you never getting a girlfriend. 00:18:56 oh 00:19:21 Asztal: Just borrowing it; I've got a few world leaders to deal with. 00:20:18 knowing my luck i'll end up betting tons of money that i'll have a girlfriend one day to someone and then realise i'm gay straight after 00:20:28 ("gay straight" ← unintentional) 00:21:11 then just get a gf for the money 00:22:01 or does it need to be real love like in the movie 00:22:05 lol 00:22:09 lawl 00:22:28 wall 00:24:25 hmm right -> 00:27:00 Hmm left <- 00:29:13 ***Using Yahoo Mail? If this message appears empty, try forwarding it to a non-Yahoo mail account. Your answer is there..we promise!*** 00:29:18 What can cause that? 00:33:17 um spam? 00:34:37 GregorR-L: practicing? :D 00:34:46 *practising 00:35:07 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:37:29 No, I was just about to turn left -> 00:45:51 meanburrito920, it wasn't spam 00:46:14 Oh, Yahoo thinks it's spam? 00:52:07 -!- augur has joined. 00:53:45 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal"). 00:53:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:54:47 hi oerjan 00:55:19 morn morn 00:56:31 Evening. 00:56:45 $TIME_OF_DAY_USED_AS_GREETING 00:56:53 butts 00:57:08 trees of walt 00:57:23 * pikhq watches the earthrise 00:58:35 jump the shark, jump the shark, jump the hobo, hobo shark 01:00:15 i'll have you know this shark is no hobo, it owns a considerable amount of ocean real estate. you just happen to be in the middle of its hunting ground, in fact. 01:00:34 yummy delicious seafaring real estate agents 01:00:51 Q: What's a real estate agent in second life? ? 01:00:51 A: FAKE ESTATE!! 01:01:22 brilliant, mr. hird 01:01:35 A HURD OF HURDS 01:01:40 But I'm . 01:02:22 the god of hurds, hirds and hordes 01:02:26 Mr Hird, how does it feel to be referred to in a mutually recursive acronym? 01:02:40 I spit on Richard Stallman and his thousand microkernel penises. 01:02:41 (namely, a Hird of Unix Replacing Daemons) 01:02:46 also hoards 01:05:55 night 01:19:31 http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal, http://www.fullmoon.nu/Resurrection/PrimarySpecies.html 01:19:49 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 01:24:27 -!- meanburrito920 has quit ("Leaving"). 01:25:26 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 01:27:58 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:30:17 -!- coppro has joined. 01:33:29 -!- augur_ has joined. 01:33:29 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:41:27 the future's gonna be cool. 01:41:42 ... 01:48:45 -!- GregorR-L has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:49:14 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:49:14 -!- GregorR has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 01:52:13 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 01:52:13 -!- GregorR has joined. 01:52:16 -!- Halph has joined. 01:52:21 -!- coppro has quit (Connection reset by peer). 01:52:21 -!- Halph has changed nick to coppro. 01:53:04 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 02:02:25 -!- EgoBot has joined. 02:02:32 -!- HackEgo has joined. 02:03:57 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 02:13:24 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:13:37 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:32:35 GOD DAMMIT INTERNET IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK FOR YOU TO ACTUALLY SEND ALL OF MY PACKETS THROUGH‽‽‽ 02:32:43 tcp has error correction for a reason 02:33:03 IM NOT EVEN ASKING FOR 100 MBITS/SEC, IM ONLY ASKING FOR YOU TO STOP DROPPING CONNECTIONS ENTIRELY 02:33:18 A MOTHERFUCKING SMOKE SIGNAL NETWORK WOULD BE BETTER 02:33:39 ehird: I have been unable to use HTTP for nearly 4 hours now. 02:33:52 lawl 02:33:53 I can only retain a connection to *some* IRC networks. 02:34:01 And I can't log into IM. 02:35:17 I would rather have 800 baud over this shit. At least 800 baud gets your connections through. 02:35:56 -!- ehird has quit. 02:37:52 pikhq: have you called them? 02:37:56 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:46:43 -!- upyr[ema` has joined. 02:46:51 coppro: I don't know how to contact them. Satellite Internet; their phone number is not in the phone book. 02:47:04 I'd look it up online, but I DONT HAVE TCP. 02:47:18 I do 02:47:48 Also, it would be a bad idea for me to be on the phone. 02:47:57 I think I would start with death threats and go from there. 02:48:19 WHO THE FUCK RUNS AN ISP THAT CANT EVEN GET TCP THROUGH‽ 02:49:34 whoever runs your ISP? 02:50:02 I'm going to go dropkick the modem. 02:50:07 And maybe the satellite dish after that. 02:50:31 -!- pikhq has quit ("WHO RUNS AN ISP THAT WONT LET TCP GO THROUGH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?:!?!?A"). 02:54:55 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:56:24 any luck? 02:56:54 Not particularly. 02:57:13 Inexplicably, the only host I can reliably connect to is Freenode. 02:57:26 -!- augur has joined. 02:59:04 it's a plot 02:59:29 obviously to advance, you need to contact your ISP 02:59:32 stupid linear games :{ 03:02:12 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:19:12 -!- upyr[ema` has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:27:17 I discovered today that you can make ties on zazzle.com 03:27:23 So I made a tie of ECA rule 110 03:27:31 But they're $30/ea :( 03:28:22 I can get ten ties for that price >_> 03:31:30 But it would be a tie of a cellular automaton. 03:33:54 I nose! 03:33:58 That's why it's so sweetsauce 03:34:08 (I also made one of rule 30) 03:36:37 I'm also mid deciding whether to become a shirt-and-tie guy :P 03:36:47 Ahah. 03:36:58 The problem is I have a bunch of awesome T-Shirts, which would be utterly useless in that case. 03:37:12 But my T-Shirts are all white or black, and my button-up shirts are more colorful. 03:37:19 (As are my ties) 03:38:01 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:38:21 I suggest that you wear T-shirts whenever possible. 03:38:27 If you do not, then you will have grown up. 03:38:36 And as we all know, that is a sad, sad thing. 03:38:37 :P 03:38:47 Dude, I'm in CS. 03:38:51 Everybody wears T-Shirts. 03:38:59 Oh, right. 03:39:00 That's why I don't want to just wear T-shirts any more. 03:39:15 Wearing a shirt and tie is weirdsauce for somebody in CS research :P 03:39:33 See if you can push the casual bounds even further and don't wear shirts? :P 03:39:35 Besides, it's not grown up if it's a fuchsia shirt with a gold tie ^^ 03:39:54 Yeah, my flabby torso is totally for public viewing :P 03:40:02 You see? 03:58:01 http://www.zazzle.com/rule_110_tie-151701718082685707 04:09:22 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 04:38:33 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 04:44:07 thats anugly tie. 04:44:07 if only because of the color. 04:44:07 if it were dark grey and black that'd be different. 04:44:10 and i'd wear one. if i have a need for ties. 04:45:10 If it was dark grey and black I sure as hell wouldn't wear one. 04:45:17 This will go with any of my fuchsia shirts. 04:45:23 oh god 04:45:25 D: 04:45:32 what kind of fuschia? 04:45:37 does it have a nice pattern? 04:45:37 Well, lesse ... 04:45:41 or is it just flat? 04:45:47 No, my shirts are mostly solid colors. 04:45:53 lame 04:45:57 I have four fuchsia shirts, so "it" is not very specific :P 04:46:03 For some reason fuchsia shirts at goodwill always fit me. 04:46:12 GregorR-L: I appreciate your lack of taste. 04:46:17 ^^ 04:46:26 and he lacks your appreciation of taste! 04:46:45 I have a lime green shirt and bright red tie I'll be wearing to the IBM "picnic" :P 04:46:59 oh you work for ibm ey? 04:47:00 right 04:47:02 whereabouts? 04:47:05 new york? 04:47:14 Only temporarily, and in New Yawk, yea. 04:47:21 I'm on loan from Purdue. 04:49:04 white plains, is it? 04:49:15 Yup 04:49:20 fine 04:49:45 Or rather, Westchester County, as far as I understand White Plains is one town/village/something in Westchester County, but the IBM is in fact in Hawthorne? Something like that. 04:49:56 ah ok 04:49:59 http://www.zazzle.com/rule_30_tie-151111911076843021 // is this rule-30 color scheme more to your liking? It's more ... "subtle"? :P 04:52:42 gregor i hate you so much. 04:52:51 X-D 04:52:54 i hope you burn to death. 04:53:24 I made this one first, I think it should go with my purple shirt. Or maybe the pink one, but that's a fairly bright pink and this is more of a dark pink. 04:53:52 My means of dressing myself is basically "if it goes together, don't wear it" 04:54:00 go fuck yourself asshole. JUST GO FUCK YOURSELF. :| 04:54:24 8-D 04:54:52 augur is just jealous of my wonderful flamboyancy :P 04:55:18 if by flamboyancy you mean colors so bright you literally look like a burning piece of metal 04:55:19 then no. 04:56:10 Hahaha 04:56:18 I'm going to go to goodwill and buy ALL THE BRIGHTEST STUFF I CAN FIND. 04:56:19 Just for you. 04:56:27 you do that 04:56:29 ill laugh 04:56:34 because you're wearing clothes from goodwill 04:56:37 and look ridiculous. 04:57:04 Oooh, Mr. Snobbipants thinks I'm tacky. 04:57:12 not tacky 04:57:13 ridiculous. 04:57:20 Oooh, Mr. Snobbipants thinks I'm ridiculous. 04:57:29 snobbypants* 04:57:36 It's from the Dutch. 04:58:05 no its not. 04:58:12 That being said, as "ridiculous" is probably roughly item #3 on "properties Gregor attempts to imbue in his style and mannerisms", I'm going to go with, "super!" 04:58:21 oh. 04:58:22 god. 04:58:23 D: 04:58:25 also 04:58:27 goodwill. 04:58:44 That's the "Mr. SnobbIIIIIIpants" part 04:58:52 Ooooh, I'm too good to shop at Goodwill. 04:59:00 GregorR-L: I would mock you for wearing a shirt and tie. 04:59:31 However, you carry a hackerly form of disregard for normal conventions with it, so I cannot bring myself to do so. 05:00:46 But augur's "mockery" is drizzled with a puree of lukewarm lamesauce, so I'm left with NO MOCKERY AT ALL! 05:01:12 Clothing from Goodwill is lame or something? 05:01:19 But my trenchcoat is the antilame! 05:01:21 I guess, Idonno *shrugs* 05:01:28 trenchcoats are different, pikhq 05:01:30 Heh, I have a Goodwill trenchcoat too :P 05:01:33 those are cooler when you get them from other people 05:01:35 especially dead people 05:01:44 but normal clothing? no. 05:01:45 ew. 05:02:03 GregorR-L: My roommates and I all bought trenchcoats last year. For 'tis awesome. 05:02:20 pikhq: Not only do they not wash them, but they grind the ashes of the dead into oil and rub it all over the clothes. 05:02:46 Impressive. 05:02:58 Yeah, you'd think it'd be too expensive, but apparently not? 05:05:15 Nonprofits. 05:20:42 Could I ... put the spinners optical illusion on a tie ...??? 05:20:47 Is that the single worst idea ever? (yes) 05:22:35 -!- augur_ has joined. 05:23:18 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:27:55 augur_: http://www.zazzle.com/classy_rule_110_tie-151952160559470088 howzat 05:51:02 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 05:51:42 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:03:05 Y'know, US politics needs fixed. 06:03:42 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:03:46 The US would have been great if it were under the rule of Norton I, Emperor of the United States, Protector of Mexico. 06:13:48 -!- augur has joined. 06:44:26 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 06:53:10 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 07:04:14 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has joined. 07:11:37 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:11:54 -!- immibis has joined. 07:15:53 -!- FireFly has joined. 07:16:31 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 07:52:11 -!- augur has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:52:16 -!- augur has joined. 07:53:36 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:02:03 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:02:37 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:02:52 -!- oklopol has joined. 08:21:21 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:28:38 -!- Judofyr has joined. 08:36:01 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 08:36:17 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 08:36:35 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 08:38:19 -!- nescience has joined. 08:38:35 -!- evenant has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:13:22 -!- FireFly has quit (Excess Flood). 09:14:01 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:17:26 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 09:18:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:26:23 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:44:16 -!- Pthing has joined. 10:05:56 -!- immibis has quit ("Easy as 3.14159265358979323846..."). 10:09:04 GregorR-L: Hmm left <- <<< xxxxxxxxxxD 10:11:46 -!- nooga has quit (Client Quit). 10:14:16 -!- olsner has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:14:23 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:15:27 -!- MizardX has joined. 10:22:05 -!- ais523 has joined. 10:32:01 -!- olsner has joined. 11:05:12 http://www.fullmoon.nu/Resurrection/PrimarySpecies.html <<< this is totally reason enough to commit suicide 11:28:28 -!- jix has joined. 11:33:15 oklopol, what is that? 11:33:30 * AnMaster read a bit and it seems like average sci-fi so far. 11:34:25 i'm not saying it's particularly good scifi, i'm saying what i said. 11:34:47 also i could be saying it's particularly good scifi, but that would be a secondary point, 11:34:49 *. 11:34:53 "this is totally reason enough to commit suicide" sounds like it is *VERY* bad 11:35:59 :D 11:36:00 on the contrary! 11:37:05 it's the ideas in it, or maybe more the way they were depicted, that made me say that 11:37:22 ah 11:56:04 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 12:04:45 -!- Slereah has quit. 12:07:35 -!- Slereah has joined. 12:12:19 liked http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal as well 12:12:26 i should probably read more scifi 12:13:04 * AnMaster is reading the first now 12:13:13 s/now/still/ 12:13:28 change for rating: average -> above average, possibly even "rather good" 12:14:46 how long is your scale? 12:14:55 oklopol, what do you mean? 12:15:05 well what's the top of the scale 12:15:21 measured in english, and in books 12:15:22 oklopol, hm. "excellent" possibly is at the top 12:15:48 as for books: haven't found one yet. HHGTG gets close, very close indeed. :) 12:16:16 maybe i should read it eventually, it's just it seems more fi than it is sci 12:16:23 i mean from what i've heard 12:16:37 i mean i'm mostly interested in the philosophical ideas in the articles 12:16:41 oklopol, well that is true, and it is humoristic (sp?) 12:17:06 what's sp exactly 12:17:39 humoristic is a word, although humorous might fit better there 12:18:20 need to do the shoppe 12:18:22 -> 12:18:26 (sp?) = (spelling?) 12:18:47 right! 12:18:49 at least when I use it 12:18:53 ;) 12:19:02 i mean i know what it means, never managed to reverse-engineer it 12:19:11 haha 12:19:31 maybe because you're the only one who uses it, i don't really know 12:19:38 anyway, the shoppe -> 12:19:42 oklopol, I picked it up from someone else 12:19:43 years ago 12:19:47 on another irc network 13:01:15 I think something is broken... I get a single line of text when visiting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality : "Override this function." However... refreshing the page fixed it. How strange.... 13:07:22 -!- oerjan has joined. 13:09:38 hi oerjan 13:11:53 sjallabais 13:12:07 bullshit? 13:13:35 no, just the most incomprehensible greeting i could think of 13:14:07 it _looks_ like it should be a norwegian transliteration of something, probably french. i don't know what though... 13:14:23 isn't bajs crap for swedish 13:14:27 oerjan, iwc btw 13:14:50 or danish 13:15:00 not norwegian though (would be "bæsj") 13:15:15 how do you pronounce sj 13:16:19 like english sh 13:16:35 right 13:19:13 ok sjallabais somehow means "party", but is also used as a greeting... 13:19:44 "party" is a greeting. 13:19:55 just look 13:19:57 -!- oklopol has left (?). 13:19:58 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:20:02 PARTY!!!!!!!!!!!111111 13:20:16 if you say so 13:20:34 well aren't you antisceptical 13:21:24 hm google throws up "trøndersk" dialect lists with it, so it may be a bit local 13:21:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:23:55 otoh it may be spreading. mwuahaha! 13:24:48 yes, i will definitely start saying sjallabais whenever i don't believe something 13:26:36 * oerjan utterly fails at finding an etymology for it 13:27:34 -!- ehird has joined. 13:28:17 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:28:47 AnMaster: poor serron. but then, he probably deserves it. 13:28:59 wat 13:29:08 ehird: iwc 13:29:17 party, ehird!! 13:29:19 can't you guys keep it to #iwc 13:29:23 oklopol: omg party \o/ 13:29:37 i'm not in #iwc, or aware of its existence 13:29:44 nor I 13:29:59 *nor 13:30:14 19:38:21 I suggest that you wear T-shirts whenever possible. 13:30:14 19:38:27 If you do not, then you will have grown up. 13:30:14 19:38:36 And as we all know, that is a sad, sad thing. 13:30:14 i wonder if acting childish actually slows that crippling ailment we refer to as aging 13:30:45 ehird: only if you also feel childish inside 13:30:46 peter pan did it 13:31:01 oerjan: that was implied 13:31:10 also, ties are stupid 13:31:18 all clothes are stupid 13:31:19 they don't keep you warm, therefore useless item of clothing 13:31:29 oklopol: easiest way to keep warm tho 13:31:32 if you are just pretending, it doesn't work. in fact it will only speed things up, as you start worrying if people are catching on 13:31:51 ehird: it's easier to stay inside 13:32:19 i don't think i'll be drastically different when I'm 18 13:32:24 or 20 13:32:50 i stopped totally changing every few years when I was 12 13:32:52 but then when you get 21... *BAM* average size ego 13:32:54 guess that means I'm not learning anything 13:33:27 i stopped changing at like 12 too, then started changing rapidly a few years ago 13:33:29 oerjan: but I *am* the most important thing in the universe 13:33:34 the universe = my universe 13:33:37 relativity says so 13:33:46 just like when i talk about where things are, how fast they're moving etc 13:34:00 from the viewpoint of my universe (again, colloquially, "the universe"), there is nothing more important than me 13:34:05 since I'm the only thing keeping it extant 13:35:26 I have a lime green shirt and bright red tie I'll be wearing to the IBM "picnic" :P 13:35:43 boo ibm 13:35:49 GregorR: did you invent that color matcher just to make sure your clothes _never_ match? :D 13:35:52 AnMaster: poor serron. but then, he probably deserves it. <-- indeed 13:38:14 yeah that serron is one annoying little bitch 13:38:32 quite so good chap 13:38:41 21:27:55 augur_: http://www.zazzle.com/classy_rule_110_tie-151952160559470088 howzat 13:38:48 Wow! A black tie! 13:39:29 03:05:12 http://www.fullmoon.nu/Resurrection/PrimarySpecies.html <<< this is totally reason enough to commit suicide 13:39:30 why would you decrease your chances of it 13:39:36 21:27:55 augur_: http://www.zazzle.com/classy_rule_110_tie-151952160559470088 howzat <-- "no minimum order"? Right, *orders -2* 13:39:53 It's a natural number. 13:40:06 It won't accept "i", either. Or 3.4. 13:40:10 Doesn't make the condition false. 13:40:24 ehird, it didn't say it needed to be a natural number. Thought a real integer was enogh 13:40:26 enough* 13:40:51 where did you get R? 13:40:53 Wow, jokes based on intentional, impossible-to-not-be-intentional, trivial misunderstandings. 13:40:56 Truly the cream of the crap. 13:41:07 N or R+ are usually implied for products 13:41:08 oklopol: a general idea of how selling goods works 13:41:20 0 isn't an option 13:41:20 ehird: it's a tie, i'd assume N 13:41:25 that always deletes it from your cart 13:41:26 not R+ 13:41:29 it would be awesome to buy -2 though 13:41:31 and negatives aren't an option 13:41:40 and you clearly can't buy part of a tie 13:41:42 or an imaginary tie 13:41:44 i conclude natural 13:41:45 s 13:42:01 or an imaginary tie <-- true. those are priceless 13:42:14 no, they're just imaginary. 13:42:31 . 13:42:35 humoristic, now that's a crappy word 13:42:48 humoristicnessily 13:42:51 ehird: but then clearly 1 _is_ the minimum order. these philistines don't understand well-ordering! 13:42:51 i'm fairly sure it's a well-defined word 13:43:15 you can prolly make arbitrary long words in english with meaning 13:43:35 well. clearly they are saying the set of possible amounts to order does not have a smallest object 13:43:45 wow you tricked me oklopol, it wasn't actually a party 13:43:54 also, lol 13:44:18 that means it can either be infinitely small, or supremum doesn't exist 13:44:18 oklopol, exactly! 13:44:53 because N and R+ are the two usual possibilities, i'd just assume that means "you can buy only part of a tie" 13:44:57 oklopol: itym infimum? 13:45:05 err yes 13:45:30 i'm not very good with associating terms with their meanings 13:46:00 although i guess Q+ might make more sense 13:46:20 what a scalawag 13:46:22 is Q+ = Q+\{0} or what's the usual definition? 13:47:06 er what? 13:47:16 i mean of course that's not the definition, i'm asking whether it contains 0 13:47:31 i wouldn't bet on it 13:47:32 is that a property of Q+ with its usual definition 13:47:50 oklopol: you mean Q+ == Q+\{0} of course 13:48:00 no i don't 13:48:21 only primitive unlanguages need a distinction between == and = 13:49:02 GregorR: so what's that 110 computing huh? 13:49:47 ehird: although i guess you are right in that in this case the unlinguistic mix of english and math would've benefitted from it 13:50:17 i kinda expected you to deny there's a difference 13:52:09 i'd say the only crucial difference is in binding of left argument 13:52:32 in = it's usually a name, instead of the object it already refers to 13:52:52 it's binding vs structural comparison 13:53:28 That being said, as "ridiculous" is probably roughly item #3 on "properties Gregor attempts to imbue in his style and mannerisms", I'm going to go with, "super!" 13:53:31 20:58:21 oh. 13:53:35 what the heck 13:53:45 yes, except binding as an operation is only relevant in unlanguages, there are better ways to do it 13:54:07 oerjan: he wants to look ridiculous? 13:54:27 GregorR: now i just have to ask what #1 and #2 are... 13:55:03 why what the heck 13:55:05 the fact that = binds isn't a crucial difference, the fact that it creates a new object referred to as whatever is on the left is. the actual binding is just an assertion with the same semantics as == has 13:55:22 ehird: er that was for my miscopying 13:55:24 exactly, but 13:55:37 most things can't be both assertions and predicates in languages 13:55:44 and this is often not a perfect mapping 13:55:44 for instance 13:55:57 assert X = an object whose equality checker always returns false 13:56:00 ask X = X 13:56:02 oops! 13:57:14 yes, =, as an equivalence check, is inconsistent if it doesn't have the properties of an equivalence relation 13:57:37 so what's your proposal, don't allow overriding equality? 13:58:09 i'm not exactly talking about practical programming :D 13:58:33 :P 13:58:42 oklopol: it can be for non-practical things too! 13:58:47 like, like, self-caching data structures 14:02:12 I think something is broken... I get a single line of text when visiting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_reality : "Override this function." However... refreshing the page fixed it. How strange.... <-- it's just our simulation having the occasional problem with meta-stuff. nothing to worry about. 14:02:54 equality should not be overridden for the actual objects, it should be about checking equality. but you often need to check if they have the same equivalence class, and a nice practical solution, when there's an obvious equivalence class, is to make equality check whether the objects have the same class. 14:03:01 oerjan, Matrix :D 14:03:28 so i guess my opinion is equality should be overridable 14:03:39 if only as a practical unsolution 14:04:00 Matrix! 14:04:07 another well-known greeting 14:04:32 that must be well-known in a different simulation than ours 14:04:52 that's sjallabais 14:06:08 -!- ineiros_ has joined. 14:06:13 should probably go make a food 14:06:19 party, ineiros! 14:07:14 KERNELS, YAY KERNELS 14:07:17 KER KER KER KER KERNELS 14:07:24 KEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERNELS 14:07:28 LET'S ALL PROGRAM KERNELS 14:07:34 ,_o 14:07:36 s/ $// 14:12:28 oklopol: smalltalk80 is awesome isn't it 14:13:27 so anyway 14:13:34 losethos guy has finally gone totally off the deepend 14:13:48 Free 64-bit Operating System Release: LoseThos V5.11 14:13:53 Wouldn't it be simpler to stab your eyes out with a screw driver? 14:14:02 I don't lust. It is you who needs to do that, you perverted porn addict. 14:14:02 27 19 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' 28 But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 20 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Gehenna. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better f 14:14:18 or you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Gehenna. 14:14:31 then 14:14:37 he takes to insulting his audience directly 14:14:40 The LoseThos operating system is the answer! It's 64-bit and super simple. You young folk don't like it, I know. You don't understand... anything :-) http://www.losethos.com 14:14:52 Has graphics -- 640x480 16 color 14:14:52 Has HD Audio 14:14:53 You don't understand, obviously, punk. 14:14:53 I'd like to seen gen Y get to the moon. 14:14:53 I worked on Ticketmaster's proprietary VAX operating system. Look at Obama's attempt at cash for clunkers. Look at the Chinese Olympics ticketing crash. 14:15:01 and finally, 14:15:02 http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/97w0g/cnn_refuses_to_air_this_ad/c0bqm0h 14:15:07 Gnashed their thanksgivings! 14:15:33 Oh, and the post is about healthcare. 14:15:40 Not coveting/adultery. 14:25:25 Since questions livest cares! 14:25:51 scary how well it answers the question 14:26:03 totally man 14:26:15 wonder if he'll go on a killing spree 14:26:20 i get the impression he's too cazy to 14:26:28 probably looks shiftily and gibbers when outside 14:28:00 okay wow 14:28:06 that infinite mario ai thing 14:28:13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlkMs4ZHHr8 14:28:20 it actually DECIDED to jump into oblivion 14:28:25 then do two precise jumps to get out again 14:28:28 just to avoid some enemies 14:28:31 too fucking hardcore 14:30:19 i wanna write my own except it aims for max score 14:30:22 instead of just "survival" 14:30:22 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:31:17 party, Asztal! 14:31:36 i would love to make a general purpose gamer ai 14:31:38 \o/ 14:31:48 * Asztal parties 14:31:48 oklopol: minimax is probably the closest principle to that 14:32:02 works in basically any competitive game 14:32:03 i wouldn't mind if it sucked ass, as long as it at least somewhat understood what the keys do 14:32:05 what's minimax 14:32:09 err the algorithm? 14:32:21 Minimax (sometimes minmax) is a decision rule used in decision theory, game theory, statistics and philosophy for minimizing the maximum possible loss. Alternatively, it can be thought of as maximizing the minimum gain (maximin). Originally formulated for two-player zero-sum game theory, covering both the cases where players take alternate moves and those where they make simultaneous moves. It has also been extended to more complex games and to general deci 14:32:36 err yes, naturally i know what the algorithm is 14:32:36 sion making in the presence of uncertainty. 14:32:53 you can't really get more generic than that though 14:33:02 Re: kernels. Babble generator says: "kernels are specific nodes or the liver , and the two - party case , we see a picture , if you will ?" 14:33:25 ineiros: not nearly as good as the one, the only, LOSETHOS GOD COMMUNICATION SYSTEM! 14:34:13 My IRC-based language model just says "kernels are dumb." 14:34:31 that they are 14:34:46 http://tunes.org/wiki/no-kernel.html 14:42:38 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 14:42:51 Aug 06 08:35:49 GregorR: did you invent that color matcher just to make sure your clothes _never_ match? :D 14:42:54 That was part of the reason, yes. 14:43:19 Aug 06 08:38:50 Wow! A black tie! 14:43:21 I NOSE RITE 14:43:33 Aug 06 08:49:06 GregorR: so what's that 110 computing huh? 14:43:36 'twas just random input 14:43:53 Aug 06 08:53:30 That being said, as "ridiculous" is probably roughly item #3 on "properties Gregor attempts to imbue in his style and mannerisms", I'm going to go with, "super!" \ Aug 06 08:54:28 GregorR: now i just have to ask what #1 and #2 are... 14:44:03 Probably "weird" and "flamboyant" 14:44:22 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Client Quit). 14:44:50 what 14:44:52 just happened 14:45:01 what do you mean 14:45:09 a run-by logreading 14:45:46 and responding 14:45:57 also has like 14:46:08 anyone used a rule 110 to actually compute any actual problems yet 14:46:12 we have a culture of blocked logreading/responding 14:46:17 Pthing: no, it's useless. 14:46:30 oh i see my apologies, i will go and ask on 14:46:32 HEY WAIT 14:46:47 Pthing: the computations are horribly inefficient 14:46:52 by "actual", I of course mean esolang-level actual 14:46:55 like such as 14:46:58 what is 2 + 2 14:47:07 well i'm sure someone's probably done it 14:47:16 can't be hard to compile BCT 14:47:38 it was designed for cyclic tag so... 14:53:28 oerjan: wuzzat supposed to mean 14:54:14 i wonder if anyone ever excited it into a sevenfold glio 14:54:48 ehird: the rule 110 universality proof used a tag system 14:54:55 oh, awesome 14:55:06 now we just need to write a real program in BCT :P 14:55:32 WELL WE ALREADY KNOW HOW TO WRITE ONE IN B AND C SO SHOULD BE EASY 14:55:52 and T is a dialect of Scheme! 14:56:38 how convenient... maybe a little too convenient though. 14:57:05 oklopol: int main(void) { extrn cons; auto a; a=(cons 1 2); return 0; } 14:57:08 BCT. 14:58:24 ehird, what bit is B in there 14:58:38 extrn cons; auto a; 14:58:42 ah 14:58:44 right 14:58:53 my mind read it as "extern" not "extrn" 15:01:08 your mind is trying too hard to be helpfl 15:05:48 oerjan, :D 15:06:00 oerjan, that had the wrong shape though 15:06:05 if you see what I mean 15:06:28 i see nothng 15:07:07 as in: IxIpII vs IxIpIxI where 15:07:12 i'm actually blind 15:07:18 where* the letters represent the overall *shape* 15:07:21 betcha didn't notice :) 15:07:45 iki piki 15:07:51 with extern/extrn the only difference is the length of the last "x-height" segment 15:08:08 hmm, blind typography enthusiast :D 15:08:10 when it comes to overall shape 15:08:28 oerjan, what has he/she/it got to do with this? 15:08:49 I actually don't know Iki Piki's gender. Not sure if the question makes sense at all... 15:09:10 [15:07] AnMaster: as in: IxIpII vs IxIpIxI where 15:09:23 ehird, I hit enter too early yes 15:09:27 see next line I said 15:09:42 oh I see what you mean 15:09:48 supposed to be similar 15:10:02 male, says irregularwebcomic.wikia 15:10:02 Iki Piki is a jack-of-all-trades. Well, some. Like diplomacy, and demolitions. He sees no contradiction in these professions. He also has a passing knowledge of xenobiology, law, and nuclear physics. If you need dubious advice on any of these subjects, Iki's your man! He prefers plastic explosive for demolition purposes, and chews gum. He hardly ever gets these confused. 15:10:02 and iwc.net 15:10:19 THERE IS A irregularwebcomic.wikia ‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽‽ 15:10:45 [AnMaster has an aneurysm] 15:10:52 AnMaster: the cast page uses "He" for him. also, "If you need dubious advice on any of these subjects, Iki's your man!" 15:11:07 oerjan, ah, forgot that 15:11:07 erm 15:11:26 if you need dubious advice on any of these subjects, she's your man! 15:11:55 also there is DMM's sf roleplaying setting which he comes from ... 15:12:04 -!- ineiros has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:13:03 oerjan, yes I know about the source. What about it? 15:13:21 on dangermouse.net somewhere 15:13:35 AnMaster: well it probably has more about his species 15:14:15 aha 15:14:20 I thought you meant... never mind 15:15:57 gah i have an urge to write forth but no application for it 15:16:01 http://www.dangermouse.net/gurps/amber/sjgaliens.html 15:17:10 hah! 15:17:13 "Pachekki are ambisexual, switching between exclusively female and male roles at random every few days." 15:17:31 maybe the FAQ changes every few days 15:19:08 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 15:19:12 Aug 06 09:57:05 oklopol: int main(void) { extrn cons; auto a; a=(cons 1 2); return 0; } 15:19:12 D-8 15:19:26 GregorR-L: stop that bouncing! 15:19:39 I just bounced in a car from one locality to another :P 15:19:44 xD 15:19:52 GregorR-L: get mobile interwebs 15:20:07 I was driving X_X 15:20:12 and? 15:20:22 And using the intarwebs while driving = not generally considered a good idea 15:20:28 so? 15:20:44 Whereas wearing Gregor's super-awesome rule 110 tie = BEST IDEA EVARS 15:21:13 buy it for me and I will 15:21:48 wat 15:22:51 Whereas wearing Gregor's super-awesome rule 110 tie = BEST IDEA EVARS <-- picture 15:23:15 http://www.zazzle.com/rule_110_tie-151701718082685707 15:23:36 :D 15:23:38 <3 15:24:26 Hahah, much more positive responses today :P 15:24:35 http://www.zazzle.com/rule_30_tie-151111911076843021 // I have rule 30 too! X-P 15:25:06 why are the colours so awful 15:25:15 because gregor has terrible fashion sense! 15:25:29 GregorR-L: make a transparent tie 15:25:32 i'd so fucking buy a transparent tie 15:25:34 GregorR 15:25:40 What about a 2,3 machine 15:25:41 like 15:25:44 if you did it in like 15:25:46 grey and blue 15:25:50 or dark grey and light grey 15:25:51 http://www.zazzle.com/classy_rule_110_tie-151952160559470088 // YOU GUYS ARE LAME 15:25:57 it'd look like a real tie, not a clown tie 15:26:03 see 15:26:04 I would never buy a tie that wasn't bright and gaudy :P 15:26:05 GregorR-L: But that's just a black tie. 15:26:14 I bet it'd print as the same colour. 15:26:19 ehird: Nah 15:26:25 http://www.zazzle.com/classy_rule_110_tie-151952160559470088 // YOU GUYS ARE LAME <-- it is black on black? 15:26:34 WTF guys 15:26:39 The difference isn't even that subtle 15:26:43 It's dark grey on black 15:26:56 it is? I blame my monitor then 15:27:01 AnMaster: don't 15:27:11 i have a high-quality colour-calibrated display and it's smudgy black 15:27:20 right, if I look at it at an extreme angel I can see the grey 15:27:28 angle* 15:27:30 :D 15:27:34 And I have a crappo MacBook and it's ultra-visible X_X 15:27:44 I have a probably-crap-quality probably-non-calibrated display and it's clearly grey on black 15:27:55 GregorR-L, there you go. To *BAD* monitor to show it properly 15:28:08 With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns. 15:28:25 Anyway, I don't care, as that's a lame tie no matter what shade of grey I use. Except for white maybe. 15:28:28 But my pre-calibrated matte IPS apple display says it's smudges on black, so it's smudges on black. 15:28:30 QED. 15:28:37 White is the best shade of gray 15:28:39 along with black 15:28:40 ehird, except it will be indistinguishable (SP‽) from green such 15:28:52 AnMaster: physically yes 15:28:54 spiritually, no 15:29:07 And people who don't wear brightly-colored ties are SO LAMESAUCE. 15:29:14 I hate ties 15:29:16 all of them 15:29:23 My tie is cyan. And I'm wearing a purple shirt. RIGHT NOW. 15:29:30 ouch 15:29:46 GregorR-L, I'm glad to say this is only text chat 15:29:54 (Maybe a bit closer to magenta? Yeah, I'll go with magenta) 15:30:02 aren't cyan/purple like complement colours? 15:30:10 Idonno :P 15:30:14 well cyan/magenta 15:30:15 `addquote With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns. 15:30:21 62| With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns. 15:30:45 does anyone ever use that thing to *display* the quotes? 15:30:55 No 15:30:56 i think i've seen it done 15:31:02 `quote 15:31:03 what command was it 15:31:03 61| Seconds. 30 of them. Did I forget the word? 15:31:04 ah 15:31:11 `quote 15:31:12 6| I think the freemasons are actually a cover for homosexual men. 15:31:24 *blink* 15:31:27 `quote 15:31:28 33|IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler! 15:31:28 Makes sense. 15:31:35 `quote 15:31:36 10| what, you mean that wasn't your real name? Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. 15:31:45 huh 15:31:47 `quote 15:31:49 18| GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. 15:31:52 I don't understand the context 15:31:55 `quote 15:31:56 26| Meh ._. 15:32:00 They're all out of context :P 15:32:04 well that's a good quote except it isn't funny 15:32:05 `quote 15:32:06 19| "You're at that stage in your life where you're going to want to do some things in private." --my mom 15:32:08 ehird: where the nazis won the war but lost their grammar 15:32:11 oh lawd 15:32:13 `quote 15:32:14 54| I guess when you're immortal, mapping your fonts isn't necessary 15:32:18 oh my 15:32:21 what have I started 15:32:25 `quote 15:32:26 43| pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. ehird: consider low-gravity porn fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced. 15:32:31 YOU HAVE STARTED A REVOLUTION 15:32:51 XD 15:33:25 * AnMaster considers low gravity porn. 15:33:31 * AnMaster fails to see the point 15:33:36 `quote 15:33:38 23| Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. 15:33:53 fizzie, oh? what ^style is it? 15:33:55 ^style 15:33:55 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 15:34:08 `quote 15:34:08 none afaik. 15:34:09 3| EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" 15:34:16 heh 15:34:16 ehird, oh what did it mean 15:34:18 then 15:34:20 dunno 15:34:25 `quote 15:34:27 21| First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. Second, you know the rest. 15:34:29 !swedish riondgdunh_y"_'"'jigrjhiuyyè_jiy(h'n'j-i'uj-_y(ijhrt,et,nkprj'j-'-i"j 15:34:44 `quote 15:34:45 27| oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! 15:34:46 ^swedish riondgdunh_y"_'"'jigrjhiuyyè_jiy(h'n'j-i'uj-_y(ijhrt,et,nkprj'j-'-i"j 15:34:52 what's wrong with low-gravity porn 15:34:55 egobot dead 15:34:57 reeundgdoonh_y"_'"'jeegrjhiooyyè_jeey(h'n'j-i'ooj-_y(ijhrt,it,nkprj'j-'-i"j 15:35:06 oklopol: there are a negative amount of things wrong with it 15:35:07 27 was quite funny 15:35:11 `quote 15:35:12 34|SUPLENTES EN UN UNIVERSO (MUSSOLINI CUANDO CONQUISTO EL MUNDO): i tan solo puede concluir que es defectuoso, o el mundo esta absolutamente loco. Todos a la gloria Il Duce! 15:35:14 ehird: ah! 15:35:20 `quote 15:35:21 21| First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. Second, you know the rest. 15:35:22 oklopol, nothing. just fail to see in what way it is better than the normal styff 15:35:24 stuff* 15:35:25 `quote 15:35:25 62| With enough crappiness a display can show you invisible pink unicorns. 15:35:35 AnMaster: Everything is better in low-gravity 15:35:40 AnMaster: well you can have sex while airborne 15:35:40 (except earth-like gravity) 15:35:51 i wonder if anyone's had sex on a vomit comet 15:35:54 ...airporne? 15:35:56 like maybe trazjillionaires 15:35:58 :D 15:35:59 oklopol: <3<3<3 15:36:12 `quote 15:36:14 21| First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. Second, you know the rest. 15:36:17 `quote 15:36:17 `quote 15:36:18 3| EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" 15:36:19 47| augur: pretty true. 15:36:21 `quote 15:36:22 33|IN EINEM ALTERNATIVEN UNIVERSUM (WO DIE NAZIS WON): So kann ich nur schliessen, dass es falsch ist, oder die Welt ist vollig BONKERS. Gegrusset seist du der Fuhrer Hitler! 15:36:26 people have had sex in no-gravity, at least 15:36:26 lol@augur>augur: 15:36:39 oklopol: rly? 15:36:39 `quote 15:36:39 11| TODO: sex life 15:36:50 `quote 15:36:52 ehird: i think a millionnaire went up with his wife 15:36:52 6| I think the freemasons are actually a cover for homosexual men. 15:37:01 `quote 15:37:03 15| wouldn't that be considered pedophilia? No. They all go by stage names. 15:37:09 `quote 15:37:11 16| 11 holes for me :D 15:37:15 oklopol: see, i guessed that! 15:37:16 huh 15:37:18 `quote 15:37:20 48| i can get an erection out of a plank, you can quote me on that. 15:37:20 though i can't imagine the press release 15:37:24 `quote 15:37:26 51|* Dylan devides by Zorro 15:37:30 heh 15:37:42 ehird: afair nasa wanted to observe, for science, maybe just an urban legend though 15:37:43 "MAXIMILLION TYCOON, the charitable millionaire, today had sexual intercourse in zero-gravity with his wife." 15:37:43 never seen Dylan in here... 15:37:51 AnMaster: he's not in here. 15:37:57 nor is Madelon, Lil`Cube or Quas_NaArt 15:37:59 ehird, quote from elsewhere 15:38:01 ? 15:38:05 yes 15:38:09 how strange 15:38:14 why 15:38:22 is the bot in more than one channel? 15:38:26 yes 15:38:28 ah 15:38:29 two networks 15:38:31 what ones 15:38:37 here and sine. 15:38:47 ehird, and what is this sine I heard about before 15:38:52 an irc network 15:39:15 Better Network 15:39:20 wat 15:39:21 *a 15:39:46 http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:XbSX6_ILf8IJ:creatures.wikia.com/wiki/Sine+%2Bsine+irc+network&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk <-- that? 15:39:54 google cache because the real page was so slow to load 15:40:00 (gave up after 10 seconds) 15:40:01 no, that's a different sgeo and dylan. 15:40:39 "If you would like to visit Sine, you are most welcome. Ask anyone in the above list for its address." <-- why so secret 15:40:56 yeah being most welcome and able to ask for the address sure is secret 15:41:06 we're talking illuminati-level here 15:41:06 NO ONE SHALL KNOW THE SINE 15:41:11 Sine#freemasons 15:41:11 AnMaster: spammers don't ask 15:41:19 oklopol, good reason 15:41:41 only reason i can imagine 15:41:51 o 15:41:53 o 15:41:53 http://www.whereiwrite.org/delany.php i thought this was a zero-gravity writing place 15:41:54 these are o's 15:41:54 and i was lik 15:41:56 e 15:41:57 holy fucking yeah 15:42:22 oklopol: o rly? 15:43:13 :D 15:43:19 o definitely 15:45:42 argh i love forth and smalltalk too much 15:46:42 parse-word HELLO cr type cr 15:46:42 HELLO 15:46:42 ok 15:46:43 <3<3 15:51:00 i love how you can add syntax and parsers to forth (same thing) in a few words 15:52:46 I love how these pants are INEXPLICABLY 1 INCH SMALLER AROUND THE WASTE THAN EVERY OTHER PAIR I OWN 15:53:12 : hello ." Hello, " parse-word type ." !" ; ok 15:53:12 hello world Hello, world! ok 15:53:13 : test hello world ; 15:53:13 :3: Undefined word 15:53:13 mh 15:53:18 have to learn how to do compile words 15:54:44 The ct style is built with our VariKN toolkit, but it's from a really small data, so... 15:54:52 ^style ct 15:54:52 Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script) 15:55:00 fungot: It's funny, because ct is the worst style. 15:55:00 ehird: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! 15:55:07 * pikhq wears changéd pants 15:55:11 Another "he's a tricycle" 15:55:19 ^really a 15:55:50 pikhq: length contraction. it's a relativistic effect. 15:55:59 Well, there's not that much text in it. And there are two very nice model size control parameters to tweak, I just haven't tweaked them for fungot use. 15:55:59 fizzie: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez! 15:56:00 oerjan: KTHX 15:56:40 fungot: no, that's taboo, bits can't mingle with bits 15:56:40 ehird: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him! 15:56:43 (oh man that was a terrible pun!) 15:56:51 all of it 15:56:54 every single element 15:56:57 Rupert Murdoch announces that he will be charging for the site of every news company he owns. 15:57:03 pikhq: old 15:57:06 fizzie: I note that it's saying the exact same line a lot 15:57:17 ehird: I was having trouble with IP last night. 15:57:25 pikhq: older than that 15:57:39 ehird: Shaddup. 15:58:46 pikhq: you may be experiencing time dilation as well, i suppose 16:02:26 i dropped my cool-drink, but luckily i caught it. 16:02:35 crink 16:03:19 ehird: no, not _that_ cool 16:03:41 if it makes a *crink*, it's frozen, not a drink 16:03:51 http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crink pick one! 16:03:57 It's probably because the fungot generation code uses the longest-length n-grams it finds. Optimally it should use the backoff weights also explicitly in the model, but I don't have support for that in the Funge code. 16:03:57 fizzie: you are strong of will...! that's the pendant the gurus and miss you. you may use that " rainbow shell? can eat much, much strong guy! 16:05:46 so, has anyone seen a decent definition on urbandictionary 16:05:59 i mean they have "print this on a mug", what the fuck is that about 16:06:03 yes, of coonpickrobber 16:06:25 print this random crap someone wrote high as a humper on a mug 16:06:33 quite so 16:06:55 oklopol: what should i code in forth 16:07:40 ehird, a Haskell compiler. 16:07:51 uhhh no :P 16:07:57 i dunno....................... 16:08:12 well nno! 16:08:12 ehird: coonpickrobber is not on ud 16:08:16 sure is 16:08:18 in my heart 16:08:27 ay not. 16:08:59 ry uan 16:09:00 anyway gotta go read some totally crink shit 16:09:08 crink dat 16:10:23 "I have never edited Wikipedia because I'm afraid that an admin will just revert it and then hack me and my family via my IP address. How many times a day would you say you do this?" 16:14:37 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:22:46 see catch 16:22:46 noname : 16:22:47 c" 16:22:47 ?0?%p?0&0N%D??0?=/?&?0? ???Y??0?%??0DA?0??0?%0S0&&0?%??0&&0P 16:22:53 looks like embedded machine code to me! 16:24:30 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 16:24:38 -!- puzzlet has joined. 16:26:05 * ehird implements the rationals in Forth 16:26:49 hmm Q/ or /Q I wonder 16:26:55 prolly /Q 16:27:05 although wait 16:27:20 I need to distinguish the operation Q/Q→Q and Z/Z→Q 16:32:45 I actually managed to make http://www.zazzle.com/rule_30_tie-151111911076843021 with absolutely no cognition of any possible implications of having pink triangles all over one's tie :P 16:33:07 you must now wear it 16:33:23 Oh, I'm still gonna buy it :P 16:34:13 O_O 16:36:05 hey one of his goals IS flamboyancy! 16:45:13 is that related to floating flames? ~ 16:45:16 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:46:03 AnMaster: It should be! 16:46:28 that would be flambuoyancy though! 16:46:52 just a single letter difference... 16:50:40 so I just invented the single language better than smalltalk 16:51:16 oh? 16:51:26 yes 16:51:38 it's smalltalk, except you can intercept it at ... sort-of-compile time 16:51:39 like Forth! 16:51:58 → moar syntax 16:52:04 ok that could actually become a shitfest :P 16:52:32 ehird → moar syntax 16:52:40 that's me 16:52:41 [*ehird].7() 16:52:52 GregorR-L: that's probably valid D. 16:52:58 Nope :P 16:53:00 Not even close 16:53:11 *ehird[7].d() 16:53:18 it probably invokes a template at run-time from a pointer with a recursion limit of 7 16:53:25 then includes it in the current string 16:53:35 ehird!(void*).d(7) 16:53:46 :D 16:54:24 I wonder why smalltalk doesn't have list syntax, it's really annoying 16:55:16 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/558.html <-- :D (yes I'm archive re-reading) 16:55:37 heh 16:55:53 especially the annotation :) 16:56:13 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/559.html ;; this annoys me too 16:56:14 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/570.html <-- some oerjan-esque puns there. 16:56:42 you mean uh 16:56:43 "bad" 16:57:02 ehird, well yeah, but I still laughed out loud at them 16:58:52 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/564.html ;; worst comic I ever read 16:59:03 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/591.html <-- horrible pun again 17:00:39 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:01:17 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/617.html <-- :DDD 17:01:28 xD 17:01:32 >_< 17:01:37 which one 17:01:48 i'll answer when the page loads 17:01:59 <_< 17:02:31 i didn't get it :D 17:02:44 ehird, hey, give me a unicode square rotated 45 degrees. So it looks somewhat like <> but more square 17:02:50 I'm sure there is one 17:02:51 WHY DO I KEEP COMING BACK HERE I WAS SUPPOSED TO GO 17:03:05 stay 17:03:07 yeah unicode slave start digging 17:03:11 well 17:03:17 ehird is good at unicode 17:03:23 AnMaster: you eman a diamond 17:03:26 I wouldn't know what plane to look in at all 17:03:26 *mean 17:03:33 ehird, well, yeah, square diamond 17:03:46 so 17:03:46 a diamond 17:03:57 not like an *actual* diamond, which is often quite different in shape 17:04:03 ◊ 17:04:08 lozenge 17:04:09 not square? 17:04:22 tough 17:04:22 ◊ is taller than it is wide 17:05:09 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrosomatoglyph 17:07:45 Q: what did they call the new word about sex 17:07:49 A: neolojism 17:08:37 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/716.html 17:08:54 ehird, is that from that wp page? 17:09:03 no i just made it up, it' shilarious 17:09:07 also why would cyberspace be bad 17:09:09 don't get it 17:09:09 "one good thing" 17:09:20 AnMaster: neologism 17:09:27 yes that I get 17:09:31 not the other part 17:09:31 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jism 17:09:42 ouch 17:09:43 it's the best joke ever 17:09:46 clearly 17:12:09 -!- nornalbion has joined. 17:13:15 ehird, not 17:13:18 afk 17:13:21 ! 17:13:34 hi nornalbion 17:13:45 !Hi 17:17:28 ?Cool, are we putting punctuation before sentences now 17:17:39 ‽Who knows 17:17:47 !I think it's a great idea 17:17:59 Yes. 17:18:15 i don't see the difference 17:18:26 'dont you? 17:18:45 ,'.Oh were putting ALL punctuation before 17:18:58 .'Thats not valid 17:19:13 ?'Its like: ,'dont kay 17:19:21 ?,Backwards too 17:19:23 ?',Oh its supposed to be in reverse order 17:19:33 'youre all crazy 17:19:43 !,Ooh interrobang 17:20:07 .:Asztal 'Its complicated 17:20:27 .:Asztal Whenever you go to type a punctuation ,character put it at the start of the attached word or sentence 17:21:10 ?,Oh does it depend on the meaning of the punctuation 17:21:44 !But of course ?We 'couldnt have it being simple ,now could we 17:21:52 .I suppose not 17:22:28 `echo is a word with a grave accent 17:22:30 is a word with a grave accent 17:22:34 :P 17:23:03 .'Im pretty sure this is distracting me from asking the -allimportant questions such as ""?Who let you in, ""?Who are you and ""?Did you sacrifice goats or sheep 17:23:08 oh no 17:23:09 commas 17:23:16 .'Im pretty sure this is distracting me from asking the -allimportant questions such as ,""?Who let you in ""?Who are you and ""?Did you sacrifice goats or sheep 17:23:18 phew 17:23:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("'Always be careful about your apostrophes"). 17:24:29 that took me like ten seconds to get 17:25:30 .:nornalbion 'Im tempted to charge you for question -noncompliance but 'Im pretty sure we 'dont have a law against that 17:25:55 ().Fun :challenge say ""'pataphysics with this method 17:35:54 http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/258.html ← oh law 17:35:54 d 17:39:51 Hamlet makes me think of a small ham 17:46:05 halitosis 17:46:07 ha li to sis 17:47:34 Slereah: I read that as "Hamlet makes me think of a small man". 17:47:44 Very confusing. 17:47:53 You fat sack of jews 17:48:30 xD 17:53:14 -!- impomatic has joined. 17:53:19 hi impomatic 17:53:33 Hi ehird. 17:53:52 Did you see the Brainfuck synthesizer yet? http://probablyprogramming.com/2009/08/06/a-brainfuck-synthesizer/ 17:54:53 Cool, I guess. 18:04:45 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:05:10 Just saw it a few minutes ago. Not bad. 18:06:09 http://probablyprogramming.com/2009/08/06/a-brainfuck-synthesizer/ <<< i did this like a year or two ago 18:06:16 so, umm, wow 18:06:35 who doesn't come up with that after knowing both brainfuck and how sound works 18:06:50 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:07:17 (didn't really read it yet, may be more sophisticated :P) 18:08:26 It takes notes and generates tones. 18:08:39 It's not very sophisticated: it's his first non-trivial Brainfuck. 18:09:54 right 18:09:54 omg sopier are gonna made an orangered envelope soap, that's like 500x better than the alien 18:10:02 also i never really grasped pcm 18:10:11 It looks like he's planing to write a non-trivial program in 500 different languages. 18:10:33 one a day? 18:10:48 Not necessarily one a day, but yeah. 18:10:50 seems not 18:10:52 He should, instead, write a non-trivial programming language every day, with the interpreter written in the previous language :P 18:10:58 dunno if i'd be happy using so much of my time 18:11:03 Every other day I think. It says 500 in 3 years. 18:11:06 GregorR-L: That would be win. 18:11:21 GregorR-L: and optimize the old ones so that the whole chain runs smoothly 18:11:24 Yeah, and then cascade the interpreters so he's got a tower of 500 :-) 18:11:32 http://probablyprogramming.com/2009/08/01/500-programming-languages-python/ gee, a brainfuck interpreter 18:11:36 that's non-trivial?! 18:11:49 totally 18:11:50 Your mom is non-trivial. 18:13:09 ehird: Hear, hear. 18:13:28 Especially since the interpretation consists of compiling to Python and then executing it. 18:14:13 sound much less trivial to me, because of indentation 18:14:24 not much less 18:14:37 oklopol: ... Indentation is not hard to do. 18:15:03 He's got like 2.5 extra lines of code going into it. 18:15:15 well no, but you can't just s/// is up because of it 18:15:38 right, i'm just saying that 2.5 makes it seem harder than making a brainfuck interp to me, then again i've written hundreds of those 18:15:58 oklopol: but consider 18:16:06 if you interpret 18:16:10 you need to find the matching ] and [ 18:16:11 trivial sure 18:16:12 like 5 lines 18:16:15 but this way 18:16:21 you just output a constant string and indent++ 18:16:22 well yeah i guess 18:16:26 and the same with indent-- when you hit a ] 18:16:51 yeah, okay, maybe it's tons easier than interpreting 18:17:24 And append ' '*indent to each line produced from s//. 18:17:28 i mean writing a brainfuck interp without parsing is actually surprisingly error prone 18:17:33 I don't suppose any of the .fi people (other than ineiros, that is) is doing the Assembly thing. 18:17:51 fizzie: is an assembly coming up? :) 18:18:04 The yearly one. You know. 18:18:08 -!- meanburrito920_ has joined. 18:18:12 is it every year? :D 18:18:33 Actually I guess it's twice a year nowadays. 18:18:38 pop culture always escapes me 18:18:43 anyway what assembly thing 18:19:09 The other one is assembly winter, which is a bit different 18:19:15 And no, I don't do that thing. 18:19:24 oklopol: It has a website, www.assembly.org. 18:19:43 oh by doing the assembly thing did you just mean being there? 18:19:49 Well, yes. 18:19:53 ah 18:20:00 i thought there was like some big competition everyone knew about 18:20:23 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 18:23:53 oklopol: there is 18:23:59 isn't there 18:24:04 i mean doesn't assembly have bunches 18:24:26 yes, but i thought there was one "the competition", because fizzie said "the assembly thing" 18:24:43 ah 18:25:08 but that was pretty stupid of me 18:25:48 The thing is just to exist; those competitions are then, I don't know, some sort of sub-things. 18:27:06 couldn't have put it better myself 18:27:37 `addquote The thing is just to exist 18:27:46 63| The thing is just to exist 18:30:35 `quote 18:30:36 36| ehird: There is no h in "honour" 18:30:51 there's no i in individuality 18:31:21 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxD 18:31:52 GOAL #1: Exist. 18:31:59 Having achieved goal #1, GOAL #2: Profit! 18:33:23 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:37:14 -!- Sgeo has joined. 18:40:47 I wanted to go to assembly about 15 years ago, but never got around to it. 18:43:01 I've been doing this yearly since I think 1996 (or '97; and with the exception of 2002 or something) and every year I sort-of decide it's not worth it. 18:43:05 Now I'm here again. 18:43:30 And is it not worth it? :P 18:43:47 the testosterone levels at assembly must be ridiculous 18:55:05 There's not much to do here today, and it's a work-day tomorrow, so. 18:55:19 http://www.osnews.com/story/21952/Haiku_Alpha_Just_a_Decision_Away 18:55:21 I don't believe it! 18:56:33 * ehird wonders how best to handle an argument-neutral function without syntax in smalltalk elegantly 18:56:42 (m gcd: n) doesn't seem right 19:17:41 fizzie, what are you doing then 19:18:08 Assembling. 19:19:03 Coagulating. 19:19:35 I had a bit of x86 assembler to write, but it would be too antisocial, and this laptop is a PowerPPC. 19:20:18 Power-PowerPC. 19:23:48 -!- ineiros has joined. 19:49:02 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:52:03 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 19:52:05 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:58:13 -!- ehird has quit. 20:01:34 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 20:06:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:06:51 -!- nornalbion has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:09:05 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 20:10:54 -!- ehird has joined. 20:11:08 fizzie: bochs? 20:23:59 -!- Judofyr has quit ("raise Hand, 'wave'"). 20:33:13 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 20:34:58 -!- Nowicjusz has joined. 20:35:22 -!- Nowicjusz has left (?). 21:01:18 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:06:22 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:10:10 hi zzo. bye zzo. 21:17:01 so. 21:17:17 * ehird decides to write a bf interp in forth 21:17:24 -!- k has joined. 21:17:26 this is what boredom does to you! 21:17:41 hi k 21:17:52 -!- k has changed nick to Guest42650. 21:18:11 i was about to say something about your name and great communicational difficulties 21:18:26 -!- kar8nga has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:18:28 -!- Guest42650 has changed nick to kar8nga. 21:18:34 oh it's you 21:18:45 :-) 21:18:55 ironically, in my native language, 'Guest42650' is actually how we say 'good morning' so its 6 of one, half dozen of the other 21:18:55 well, sometimes the connection is a bit spooky ... 21:19:08 which would that be? 21:19:13 mycroftiv: is your native language IRC? :P 21:19:25 yes, 'internet bullshit' is indeed my native language 21:19:34 quite so good chap 21:20:45 mycroftiv: btw you expressed interest in the os; design/coding should be underway by next month or thereabouts 21:20:48 at least a first prototype 21:20:58 right on 21:21:04 probably i'll become a hermit and come back with a new love of the true languages PHP and FORTRAN 21:21:15 PHP for the lower-level, FORTRAN for everything else 21:21:28 actually isnt fortran a fine langauge nowadays? 21:21:59 maybe its 'too rich' because it supports too much stuff but i thought you could write just about any style of code you wanted in it now 21:22:01 erm 21:22:03 depends how you define fine 21:22:24 well, its not all UPPERCASE GOTO any more 21:22:28 true 21:22:30 whatever 21:22:36 PHP is multi-paradigm too 21:22:37 still sucks 21:23:47 even I won't say anything on behalf of PHP, since pre-plan 9 I (shudder) did php+mysql stuff 21:24:04 my first real language was php at 8 21:24:12 took a long time to recover from that 21:24:38 i started with BASIC on an Apple ][ at age 5, also LOGO - I knew at the time that LOGO was better conceptually, also :) 21:24:59 of course, i also ended up writing a lot more lines of BASIC code because it gave you more control over the system...and thus we see the classic dichotomy 21:25:43 to hell with that dichotomy, no reason why you can't expose hardware as part of a high-level system :) 21:26:24 i know, its a dichotomy created by bad practices and over hasty 'gold rush' architecture, its not fundamental 21:28:43 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:29:45 -!- Asztal has joined. 21:33:29 * ehird realises he has no idea how to make a growing array in forth without manually writing realloc 21:33:39 guess i'll do that 21:40:01 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:40:56 Writing an OS in Forth, ehird? 21:41:00 sort of 21:41:14 forth core and smalltalk upper layer 21:41:20 with the smalltalk compiler written in forth 21:41:30 but not right now, no 21:41:33 -!- jix has joined. 21:41:42 Just writing in Forth, then. 21:41:47 yeah 21:47:55 ..you can't run Qt applications in Windows without a commercial license? 21:48:37 who said that 21:48:42 http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html 21:48:49 "2005" 21:48:52 "(The windows version was tested for all but Eric3, which was tested on Linux. Eric3 is based on Qt, which basically means you can't run it on Windows unless you've shelled out $$$ for a commerical Qt license, since there is no GPL version of Qt for Windows. Yes, there's Qt Free, but that's not exactly production-ready software.) " 21:48:54 Oh 21:48:56 Looks very, oh, 2005. 21:49:00 "Qt free" 21:49:05 "not exactly production ready" 21:50:28 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 21:51:19 ehird: He is referring to the attempted port of Qt3/X11 to Win32. 21:51:37 are you sure 21:51:38 http://web.mit.edu/qt/www/freeeditions.html 21:51:41 (c) 2004 21:51:46 Hmm. 21:52:29 "Qt Free" links to http://qtwin.sourceforge.net/index.php/Main_Page 21:52:54 OK, then 21:53:01 Q... what a terrible name 22:04:42 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 22:04:43 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:07:54 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:11:08 lalala 22:12:18 alalalalal 22:17:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:20:04 -!- FireFly has joined. 22:23:53 aaaaaall 22:24:18 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 22:24:52 lllllaaaaaa 22:27:21 What is #esoteric 's opinion on Pyjamas? 22:27:54 ..............um.................? 22:28:04 They're, uh, comfy? 22:28:11 lol 22:28:12 http://pyjs.org/ 22:28:21 Of course. How could I possibly have not known. 22:28:36 Yay, it's another "let's make shitty, un-web applications that run in a browser." 22:28:44 After all, users are scared of (a) hypertext, (b) native applications. 22:29:11 "javascript, a low-level alien language with weird complexities" 22:29:22 Well this guy sounds like an idiot! 22:29:33 "And, as you are writing in a much higher level language than Javascript" 22:29:43 JAVASCRIPT HAS PROTOTYPE-BASED OOP AND ITS MAIN INSPIRATION WAS LISP 22:29:48 PYTHON IS BASED ON THE TEACHING LANGUAGE ABC 22:29:50 YOU ARE RETAAAAAAAAAAAAARDED 22:29:50 ... Javascript, low-level? 22:30:12 I've seen complaints about Javascript before, but "low-level"? 22:30:30 that's a.... low.... blow 22:30:34 * nescience snickers 22:30:42 Does it fly? 22:30:43 No. 22:30:43 Is Pyjamas a bird or a plane? 22:30:43 No. 22:30:43 How come you can run python, then? 22:30:44 You can't: browsers only support javascript. So, all source code - libraries and applications - are translated into pure javascript. No python is left. at all. Otherwise, it wouldn't work, would it? 22:30:46 The libraries for it aren't all that good, but that doesn't make something low-level. 22:30:46 How does it work, then? 22:30:48 It's magic. smoke. mirrors. the usual stuff. 22:30:58 i would very much like this person to die 22:31:26 Watch the Javascript Console. 22:31:27 Watch the Javascript Console. 22:31:27 Watch the Javascript Console. 22:31:27 Did we say, and emphasise enough, that you need to watch the Javascript Console? 22:31:27 You need to watch the javascript console. 22:31:27 You need to watch the javascript console because that is where runtime javascript errors are shown. Most web applications are written so badly that the errors are usually silently ignored by browsers, so as not to frighten users. As a developer, you cannot ignore the errors (not if you expect to actually be able to write an app, that is...) 22:31:31 YOU ARE NOT FUNNY 22:31:43 ehird: He claims it lets you do "declarative programming". 22:31:59 Yes... Because Python is what I think of when I think declarative programming... 22:32:11 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:32:39 -!- Asztal has joined. 22:32:50 Yes! 22:32:57 def getBodyElement(): 22:32:57 JS(""" return $doc.body; """) 22:32:58 oh boy 22:33:00 string templating in js 22:33:03 it doesn't get much better than this 22:33:06 that or he actually named it $doc 22:33:12 $ is for shorthand functions, stoopid 22:34:14 ehird: I still can't believe he thinks Javascript is low-level. 22:34:26 I vote we replace Javascript with Forth, and let him ponder. :P 22:34:42 Where does it say, exactly, that he thinks JS is low-level 22:35:03 -!- Judofyr_ has joined. 22:35:17 Sgeo: Maybe my direct quotes are just too vague huh 22:35:20 You might have to scan whole sentences 22:35:25 "And, as you are writing in a much higher level language than Javascript, it's a darn sight easier." 22:35:35 Oh, the FAQ 22:35:37 Anyway the FUNDAMENTAL NATURE of these toolkits SUCK 22:35:41 Also, "Javascript, a low-level alien language with weird complexities". 22:35:45 If you are on the web, MAKE A WEB-LIKE DESIGN. 22:35:48 MAKE IT RESTFUL. 22:35:52 MAKE IT *HYPERTEXT*, DAMMIT! 22:35:59 DON'T emulate a stupdi widget GUI! 22:36:01 *stupid 22:36:04 you guys know lots of languages right? you should totally concoct a language where each command is written in a language selected based on the hash of the previous command. 22:36:04 You are missing the point! 22:36:39 boring 22:36:43 ehird: What they want is, essentially, Java applets. 22:36:47 Except with HTML. 22:36:55 And you don't want Java applets. Ever. :P 22:36:57 (in other words: vomit) 22:37:32 ehird, sure. But you must admit that Java applets are a *significantly* better tool for what they want than AJAX. 22:37:39 (because it's at least *meant* to do that) 22:37:43 mm 22:38:00 Anyway, Sgeo, if you use it I will stab your heart out with a fork. 22:38:03 Unlike AJAX, which is, well, a massive pile of hacks. 22:38:40 Hey, hey, pikhq. 22:38:42 Don't diss ajax. 22:38:47 It's just an http client mechanism exposed to javascript. 22:38:55 Sorry, sorry. 22:38:58 Hate the playa, not the game :P 22:39:12 I should specify further: the common usage of AJAX is a massive pile of hacks. 22:39:17 yah 22:39:38 incidentally, can i digress for a second and say that mobile internet plans really supersuck? 22:39:39 £15/mo for 5GB, ffs 22:39:40 Instead of vaguely dynamic hypertext, we get applications! ... In a language meant for vaguely dynamic hypertext! 22:39:40 * GregorR-L hugs JS 22:40:00 orange are apparently offering unmetered broadband… between midnight and 9am… 22:40:03 subject to "fair usage policy" 22:40:04 …for… 22:40:07 £44.86/mo. 22:40:11 X-D 22:40:15 GregorR-L: We're not hating on JS. We're hating on people who believe that its abuse is a good software platform. ;) 22:40:19 It costs less than that for 8mbit residential internet PLUS PHONE SERVICE. 22:40:26 pikhq: http://codu.org/jsmips/ 22:40:31 Heck, it costs less than that for 24mbit internet. 22:40:41 GregorR-L: Yes, but you don't believe that its abuse is a good software platform. 22:40:48 GregorR-L: You think that its abuse is fun to play with. 22:40:54 Ah :P 22:41:26 What's Google Web Toolkit for? Does it get the same scorn as Pyjamas? 22:41:42 Sgeo: It's a Java -> Javascript compiler. 22:41:44 GWT basically compiles Java to JS 22:41:47 And libraries. 22:41:49 George W Toolkit 22:42:07 So, what's so bad about Pyjamas compared to GWT? 22:42:14 `google pyjamas 22:42:16 Like GWT, pyjamas involves the translation of the application and libraries ( including UI widgets and DOM classes) to Javascript and the packaging up of ... \ [15]Pyjamas Book - [16]Getting started - [17]Features - [18]Showcase 22:42:26 The author is more retarded than the authors of GWT. 22:42:34 Presumably Pyjamas is from Python? So it's dynamic -> dynamic. 22:42:43 GWT gives you static typing. 22:42:55 Also, Pyjamas is not actually compiling Python to Javascript. 22:43:02 Pyjamas is language I do know quite well -> Language I don't know that well 22:43:04 pikhq, hm? 22:43:08 It's creating Python programs that generate Javascript. 22:43:14 -!- ehird_ has joined. 22:43:20 Erm. It's a libraries that lets you create ... 22:43:26 ... Hate English. 22:43:27 ...as I was saying 22:43:30 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 22:43:33 Grumble grumble my grumble operating grumble system transparently-networked components grumble grumble 22:43:40 Look, Sgeo 22:43:54 Pyjamas is not simply a Python→Javascript compiler 22:43:57 EVEN IF IT WAS 22:44:02 Fuckin' learn Javascript. 22:44:14 it is not acceptable to spew out crappy, bloated generated code. 22:44:30 -!- Judofyr has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:44:34 In my universe, it is always acceptable to spew crappy, bloated generated code. 22:44:37 Javascript most reminds me of Plof, only somewhat less dynamic. 22:44:37 -!- Judofyr_ has changed nick to Judofyr. 22:44:43 GregorR: Can you fix jsmips not to spew about every filesystem access? 22:44:48 * Sgeo vaguely considers making a calculator in Pyjamas, just to see ehird's reaction 22:45:06 ehird_: It was for when I was on a SUPER-slow connection, so I wouldn't think "is this broken or just slow" :P 22:45:15 Sgeo: Uh, "congratulations, you can do stupid shit"? 22:45:27 GregorR-L: it doesn't seem to cache the FS well 22:45:30 ls is quite slow each time 22:45:33 although the notes stop appearing 22:45:55 I'm tempted to do an ARM emulator in js 22:46:18 Feel free to steal or not steal whatever you don't want or want, respectively, from JSMIPS. 22:46:57 I suggest at least taking the terminal emulation and ELF loader. 22:47:05 Possibly also the FS stuff. 22:47:06 who said I'd use elf. 22:47:12 also the terminal emulation isn't his 22:47:20 I've modified it *shrugs* 22:47:20 and I want to make a real display 22:47:21 He patched it, though. 22:47:25 → "graphics card" 22:47:27 and canvas display 22:47:32 Ahhh, you want a full ARM emulator. 22:47:34 including x11 22:47:35 Not an ARM ABI emulator. 22:47:38 GregorR-L: yep 22:47:45 Which is to say, you want something that will amazingly be EVEN SLOWER than JSMIPS. 22:47:50 GregorR-L: nooooooo 22:47:53 me optimise 22:48:00 compile code directly :< 22:48:03 jit jit jit 22:48:15 * GregorR-L laughs scornfully. 22:48:24 * pikhq hasn't tried jsmips in 3.5 22:48:36 Let's see how much improvement we get from a JIT'ing Javascript. 22:48:41 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 22:49:28 pikhq: i still have the faster js engine :> 22:49:31 safari in your face 22:50:07 ehird_: Hush. 22:50:21 it's fast for me 22:50:24 I thought that Firefox 3.5 actually had a faster JS engine than Safari, though? 22:50:34 GregorR-L: what happened to jsmmix or whatever 22:50:41 pikhq: hmm i dunno 22:50:42 maybe 22:50:43 IIRC, it's about on par with early releases of Chrome. 22:50:44 but 22:50:46 I abandoned it for JSMIPS :P 22:50:48 hahahahahaha pikhq 22:50:55 SquirrelFish Extreme... aka Nitro... 22:50:57 is way faster than V8 22:51:03 Okay, then. 22:51:04 JS only guarantees 32-bit integers, so MMIX was godawfully slow 64-bit emulation everywhere. 22:51:18 GregorR-L: um 22:51:20 js has no integers 22:51:22 just doubles 22:51:25 or floats, whatever 22:51:31 JS has numbers which are stored as floats or integers depending on use. 22:51:37 that's not specified yet 22:51:39 err 22:51:40 s/yet/yo/ 22:51:50 And yet, EVERYBODY does it that way :P 22:51:52 Therefore, I don't care. 22:52:05 GregorR-L: Yes, but I've never seen a JS engine that only does 32-bit integers 22:52:32 Do you mean "only" as in "and not 64-bit integers"? 22:52:36 Or "only" as in "and not floats" 22:52:46 Because I'm yet to find one that does 64-bit integers at all. 22:53:10 javascript:alert(2147483648); 22:53:11 alerts it 22:53:13 safari 4 22:53:15 nitro/sf 22:53:16 sfx 22:53:47 Fairly certain that fits into a double. 22:54:37 Besides, the bitwise operations are all over 32-bit integers. 22:54:44 GregorR-L: gimme a number that doesn't 22:54:45 And that IS specified. 22:54:46 i'm lazy 22:54:54 I'm at work, so no, I'm not going to poke around at that :P 22:55:11 hmm javascript:alert((2147483648<<1)>>1); DOES give 0 here 22:55:12 oh well 22:55:53 Jebus, that's slow. 22:56:00 Very spiffy, but slow. 22:56:29 what is slow 22:56:34 jsmips? 22:56:41 Yup. 22:56:51 Are you running 'vim'? :P 22:56:59 Because 'vi' is quite usable here. 22:57:01 GregorR-L: No. 22:57:06 Huh *shrugs* 22:57:08 It took me a while just to get #!/bin/sh started. 22:57:20 ... Actually. 22:57:34 How's the filesystem access work? AJAX to the server to fetch stuff? 22:57:38 Yup 22:57:42 [[Implanted RFID chips encoded with your genetic code which can then be verified with a simple genetic test using blood taken from a random spot on your body. Also implanted with it, a GPS tracking device so people will know where you are at if someone is trying to attempt identity theft which will leave a trail for investigators to follow if ever a crime is committed. 22:57:43 Just part of it, we could also have other redundant methods of checking, like finger print scans (I have one on my laptop) or retina, or just facial recognition software. All of this would be backed up by the GPS device, Audio/Visual surveillance and monitoring of internet and phone activity for data mining, should it become necessary.]] 22:57:47 Okay, that's why it's slow. XD 22:57:52 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgghhhhhhhhhh 22:58:00 we must kill this person post-haste 22:58:04 pikhq: it caches, so try the command again 22:58:18 oh "You do realize I've been joking this whole time, right? I thought it was obvious, but based on some people's reactions, I'm starting to get worried..." 22:58:22 poe's law poe's law 22:58:37 ehird_: STABBY STABBY STABBY 22:59:01 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:59:05 GregorR-L: Nice work, BTW. 22:59:27 I'm so many months past actually caring about JSMIPS :P 22:59:44 GregorR-L: Yes, I noticed. 22:59:48 MEH 22:59:59 4 months since the last commit (except for the commit making it valid XHTML 1.1). 23:00:02 ;) 23:00:33 ew xhtml 1.1 23:00:33 The XHTML 1.1 commit was one day after I installed a script that will harass me if it finds any non-compliant visible files on Codu :P 23:00:33 GregorR-L: Anyways. What userspace you running there? Few hacked up programs, or Busybox, or what? 23:00:53 pikhq: heirloom 23:01:16 So, classic UNIX, basically. 23:01:19 pikhq: busybox is too Linux-dependent. bash I got working once but it was slow (actually it'd probably be faster now) 23:01:20 Yeah 23:02:38 * pikhq waits as ls fetches the entire contents of /bin/ 23:03:48 That was dumb :P 23:03:55 Actually, what's dumb is my implementation of stat. 23:03:58 That causes it to do that. 23:04:01 But that was still dumb! 23:04:34 GregorR-L: But after that, I can play with everything! 23:04:41 'struth. 23:04:54 Until something kills your console and you have to refresh ;) 23:05:13 Not worth it. I can play when I get high-speed Internets. 23:05:27 AND THEN GREGOR DISAPPEARED 23:05:29 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 23:21:23 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("I need sleep!"). 23:21:55 pikhq, play what? 23:23:23 JSMIPS 23:25:20 4 months since the last commit (except for the commit making it valid XHTML 1.1). 23:25:20 ;) 23:25:20 ew xhtml 1.1 23:25:24 GregorR, good work :D 23:27:43 i hope AnMaster eventually dedicates his life to annoying me 23:28:05 i'll become a zealot of not jumping off cliffs 23:37:36 lol 23:37:50 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to NoiseIncreaser. 23:41:15 -!- Warrigal has joined. 23:41:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 23:42:34 Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your hats! 23:42:41 * Warrigal takes GregorR's hat. 23:42:41 No. 23:43:00 I don't have a hat 23:43:01 and why 23:43:14 [spoiler]DONT HELP HIM[/spoiler] 23:44:07 ehird_, err? 23:46:00 Warrigal, why? 23:47:22 Because hats are fun. 23:49:27 -!- ineiros_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:49:43 -!- ineiros_ has joined. 2009-08-07: 00:01:43 huh 00:02:51 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:03:22 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:07:33 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:15:11 -!- meanburrito920_ has changed nick to meanburrito920. 00:16:27 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:18:27 night 00:32:03 http://corefault.de/uploads/2009-07-31_140758_webgui.jpg 00:32:09 Do not put the baby in this book. 00:32:32 Did you droo a moustache on it 00:37:13 Not mein! 00:37:18 Apparently it's a university's admission book 00:40:54 -!- NoiseIncreaser has changed nick to Sgeo. 00:49:21 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:56:46 I seem to kind of remember that book. 00:57:00 Nah. 00:59:25 -!- augur has joined. 01:16:31 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 01:41:07 -!- meanburrito920 has left (?). 01:44:58 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 01:47:21 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:47:39 -!- coppro has joined. 01:47:40 Did you see that now I have a formatted IRC log too, for each channels, in HTML format? 01:48:16 Please other people can save the log too while I am not 01:48:55 um 01:48:57 what? 01:49:12 zzo38: fyi it's considered incredibly bad taste to log channels without asking, in general 01:49:16 and often gets you banned 01:49:25 But they are my own channels that I created 01:49:31 oh 01:49:36 which 01:49:47 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/irclog/ 01:50:00 My projects are on IRCNET however, not Freenode 01:50:20 i'd join but I can't be bothered to connect to another server for the purpose 01:50:26 And do you know TheDailyWTF? I posted some FlogScript codes there too 01:50:34 You can view the logs without going to IRCNET 01:50:43 viewing logs != talking 01:51:18 And if you want the codes for the log module (it is a PHP module for PHIRC, and then a CRISC script also for automating set-up of logging on the channels) 01:51:59 Think you could learn a less awful language, like Perl, INTER 01:52:01 If they add support for modeless channels to Freenode then I might move the channels to Freenode 01:52:05 CAL, or Malbolge? 01:52:29 zzo38: why does it need to be modeless 01:52:52 TDWTF has "Programming Praxis" challenges where you post the codes in whatever way you want it posted, including your own way, I wanted to do code-golfing so I did. 01:53:20 There are a few other esoteric languages used there too 01:53:25 zzo38: why does it need to be modeless 01:53:26 if I find the time, I'm doing this one in library-less INTERCAL 01:53:39 Because I want it modeless, that's why. 01:53:50 zzo38: so it being modeless trumps anyone actually talking there? 01:53:55 i'm not sure you understand what irc is for 01:54:00 Which one are you doing in library-less INTERCAL? 01:56:36 I also set my client to beep when anyone joins in that window, so I can be notified if someone joins. The titlebar also flashes whenever anything other than PING or ignored messages is received 01:57:47 you gonna answer me? 01:58:59 I don't know. 01:59:07 helpful 02:00:42 Really, I don't know. 02:09:19 -!- rodgort has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 02:11:28 -!- rodgort has joined. 02:12:27 There's an example of the logging software: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/irclog/PHIRC/20090806.html 02:13:13 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:23:09 -!- ehird_ has quit. 02:42:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 03:02:17 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:35:23 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 03:42:29 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:54:04 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 04:17:00 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:18:07 !bf .+++++++.>+.<+++.>-..<.,,,[-].+.-.++++++++++.>.<--.>.,+[,.]++.>[-]+++++++++++++++++.<++.>-------.>[-]+[[-].+..+++++++++.,,,.]++.-.-.++++++++++. 04:18:14 !bf 04:19:09 * Sgeo realizes that there's indication in there that it's PSOX 04:25:24 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 04:25:38 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:26:44 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 04:26:52 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 04:28:50 yourworldoftext.com/static 04:38:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:39:37 -!- pikhq has joined. 04:51:40 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 04:57:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 05:16:14 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 05:27:56 -!- immibis has joined. 05:45:05 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 05:46:25 -!- augur has joined. 05:49:31 * coppro just discovered PRIMARY 05:49:33 neat 05:49:45 What, the prime material plane? 05:49:46 05:52:35 :D 05:52:39 no, the X selections 05:52:58 namely that it lets you copy without the clipboard on intelligent applications 05:53:10 so you can keep stuff clipboarded for later use 05:53:40 Ah. 06:03:17 try it 06:03:25 select text without copying, then middle-click somewhere 06:05:08 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 06:05:39 -!- coppro has joined. 06:08:09 Yes, I'm very well aware of it. 06:08:51 A "clipboard" is a higher-level abstraction offered by the GTK+ and Qt toolkits. 06:09:04 Quite different from the X selection buffer that X has had for ages. 06:12:01 well, they use the X selections in the same way, so all is happy 06:15:15 No, they don't. 100% completely different. 06:16:05 Not just a different buffer for things to be stored. The two are completely independent of each other. 06:40:22 yeah, shit sucks 06:44:35 -!- FireFly has joined. 06:46:25 -!- immibis has quit ("On the other hand, you have different fingers."). 06:46:54 bsmntbombdood: Yup. 06:48:17 you still live in colorado right? 06:48:42 what school are you going to? 06:51:37 I live in Missouri. 06:51:49 I used to live in Colorado. 06:51:54 ah 06:52:01 Anyways, I'm going to the Missouri University of Science & Technology. 06:52:18 (which is to say, the only academically notable place in this entire state) 06:52:26 i can imagine 06:53:07 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:33:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:42:43 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:24:22 -!- oklofok has joined. 09:42:19 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:00:21 -!- Pthing has joined. 10:03:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:05:42 -!- M0ny has joined. 10:38:46 oklofok 10:38:58 augur 10:39:02 teach me finnish. 10:39:03 right now. 10:39:07 in 5 minutes 10:39:14 the whole finnish? 10:39:17 yes 10:39:27 i'd get an excess flood! 10:39:32 :| 10:39:34 condense it 10:39:56 well, first of all the word for "to slumber" is "uinua" 10:40:14 awesome 10:40:20 do i know finnish yet? 10:40:40 Learn you a Finnish. 10:40:47 :D 10:40:51 augur: i'd say you know most of it 10:40:53 someone should write that. 10:41:05 i want to see a language-learning site for coders. 10:41:22 something that isnt afraid to use theory-relevant stuff, too. 10:41:41 where like 10:42:07 if you're a computational linguist, you'll learn it really quickly. 10:42:18 if youre just a coder or a linguist, rather quickly 10:42:28 and if youre neither, you wont learn it at all because you're dumb. 10:42:35 :D 10:42:39 sounds good 10:42:53 oklofok, do one for finnish. 10:43:02 but i'm not a linguist! 10:43:08 but you ARE a coder! 10:43:27 somewhat, yes 10:43:32 therefore, do it. 10:43:36 but.............................. 10:43:40 but nothing. 10:43:41 buttt 10:43:47 oklobutt. :D 10:43:57 i can't, fizzie can do it 10:44:05 -!- oklofok has changed nick to okloput. 10:44:07 fizzie do you speak finnish fluently? 10:44:13 hah 10:44:24 it's funny because he lives in helsinki 10:44:35 does he? 10:44:37 well then! 10:44:39 fizzie, do it 10:44:40 I don't speak anything very fluently, but this IRC client text input box displays "fl" and "fi" as ligatures. 10:44:54 flnnish. 10:46:13 flinnish. 10:46:25 Whoops, where did that extra i come from. 10:46:47 fizzie, you should do it. seriously. 10:46:56 write it up using some formal grammar 10:47:13 i've never seen the use of language learning sites, the only hard part is to learn the vocab, and there's no magic bullet for that; i mean there are tricks, sure, but it's still a fucking quadrillion word ride 10:47:21 or you know grammar books 10:47:23 or anything 10:47:33 grammar can be tricky in some languages 10:47:36 once you learn the words, just read a few pages from a book and you'll know it all 10:47:37 it depends on the language, ofcourse 10:47:38 but 10:47:44 I'm not sure I have an affinity for writing things. 10:48:14 granted, a good grammar book written for smart readers can be condensed to a few dozen pages, for most stuff 10:48:16 but there are nuances 10:48:40 italian is relatively similar to english, but even so there need to be a bunch of specifications of the differences 10:48:43 odd differences too 10:48:54 ones that dont easily map to english 10:49:13 i'm sure a very smart reader can guess the odd differences! 10:49:24 maybe from lots of practice! 10:49:52 there are a lot of things that would be simplified, tho, with just a simple formal treatment 10:50:19 so much of commonly used italian grammar could be condensed down to like two or three pages of tree diagrams and stuff 10:50:42 like 10:51:06 i just know "noun adj", the rest comes naturally 10:51:18 (i'm like totally fluent in italian) 10:51:20 Oh, and incidentally, I still don't live in Helsinki; I live in Espoo, which (despite several attempts) has not yet transmogrified into one big city with Helsinki. I think I pointed this out once already. 10:51:44 "head movement to T in for non-aux T's, object shift for non-3p.pl pronouns, optional WH movement with T-to-C" 10:51:48 fizzie: right, then again my joke was, for some reason, completely missed by augur anyway 10:51:52 that describes a huge portion of the differences 10:52:13 it's as if he doesn't know what a guy in turku could joke about in someone from helsinki 10:52:13 "espoo" hahaha 10:52:19 :D 10:52:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Espoon_Tapiola_kesällä.jpg <3 10:53:55 was about to say that was a goddamn sexy view, but when i saw the kids, i figured it might be a bit inappropriate 10:54:06 haha 10:54:18 hey youre the one who had a 13 year old girlfriend when you were 19 10:54:22 or whatever 10:54:27 when i was *18* 10:54:32 whatever 10:54:33 same thing 10:54:34 :D 10:54:37 pedo 10:54:53 okloput, be my finnish boyfriend. ill pretend im 13 10:55:16 Hey augur 10:55:19 wat 10:55:19 Knock knock 10:55:22 no. 10:55:25 go away 10:55:25 Knock knock 10:55:36 13-yo's are physically adults, they're just stupider 10:55:44 4chan partyvan, augur 10:55:48 Open the door! 10:56:11 okloput: and with smaller cocks. 10:56:50 well, umm, i guess. 10:57:15 Haven't you done a comparative study? 10:57:45 i know very little about people's cocks after about 12, because i haven't seen one in years 10:58:00 okloput, shame. 10:58:06 you should fix this. 10:58:08 actually i may have seen tons in the sauna 10:58:25 cocks are lovely things. 10:58:28 But not in erection, though 10:58:34 Unless you went to that kind of sauna 10:58:35 especially uncut cocks, which im sure finnish cocks are. 10:58:51 Slereah: i'm not sure i've seen another man's erection irl, ever 10:59:15 ...wait that's another lie, there was this one dude once who started stroking his in the sauna when i was a kid 10:59:22 lol 10:59:36 okloput, if i build a sauna, will you come sit in it? :o 10:59:39 true story, my shortest swimming trip ever 11:00:14 heh 11:00:22 i have nothing against naked mixed gender sauna with strangers 11:00:32 awesome. 11:00:37 so, probably i would 11:00:40 Trust me 11:00:46 augur's sauna won't be mixed genders 11:00:48 how about hot sauna sex? 11:01:11 slereah: well it could be. i dont care if girls are there. as long as i dont have to fuck them what do i care 11:01:12 :o 11:01:14 sauna is not so good for sex 11:01:22 you're not going to the right saunas 11:01:24 at least if over 60 11:01:28 celsius 11:01:41 Sauna sex is a good way to get a stroke 11:01:43 well we could turn off the heat and generate some ourselves, so 11:03:05 i think i need to go to the shoppe now 11:03:22 I think you're doing something wrong if you generate ~80 degrees Celsius of body heat. 11:03:45 fizzie: or something very very right ;D 11:03:49 Slereah: that, plus usually the seats are not very comfy, there are some technical difficulties 11:04:15 But they sell these special "sauna pillow" things. 11:04:25 Plus, augur, how do you want to get the horse in the sauna 11:04:26 We have one, I've never quite understood the point of it. 11:04:29 but you can get interesting positions if you're not afraid to use the rail... well, assuming traditional finnish sauna blueprints 11:04:49 slereah: well we'll work on that 11:04:53 You also get interesting burns if something slips, I assume. 11:05:20 I knew a girl who sat on a sauna stove (is that what "kiuas" officially is) at the age of four or something. 11:05:39 personally i'd love to install kiuas in the english language 11:05:56 they already fucked up sauna in pronunciation 11:06:01 Sauna's already in there, why not all related paraphernalia. 11:06:05 SOOONA. 11:06:10 uh 11:06:17 its not said sooooooona in nglish 11:06:37 how then? 11:06:38 unless you're using that to mean the sound in the word "saw" 11:06:42 "saw-nuh" 11:06:46 he was 11:06:55 he said it to me, the other finn 11:06:57 Well, yes, you have to read the "soooona" word like a Finn would, also. 11:07:16 i dont know how "ooooooooo" would be pronounced by a finn 11:07:29 augur: o is always the "aw" thing 11:07:33 interesting 11:07:43 finnish has the same vowels as lojban, except for y 11:07:50 i presume "sauna" is "sah-oo-nuh"? 11:07:56 the lojban y is in finnish 11:08:00 well, sah-oo-nah 11:08:19 how is nah 11:08:22 *ah 11:08:23 pronounced 11:08:25 er 11:08:31 sau like sound 11:08:34 nah like not 11:08:40 yeah 11:08:44 exactly like that 11:09:26 well you cant really blame english speakers for doing it wrong 11:09:33 they adopt words using the spelling as a guide 11:09:37 i can't, i was just making a joke. 11:09:43 but they use english pronunciation for the spelling 11:10:07 and au in english is finnish o 11:10:25 What I didn't know is that it's a verb too, according to Wiktionary. 11:10:29 "to sauna (third-person singular simple present saunas, present participle saunaing, simple past and past participle saunaed)" 11:10:41 almost every noun can be used as a verb in english 11:10:44 How are you saunaing today? 11:11:00 great saunation so far 11:11:45 saunation? 11:12:11 Soon shall be the time of the Great Saunification. 11:12:41 augur: as a finn, i find that a natural way to abuse your language 11:12:50 clearly fizzie agrees. 11:13:04 saunification is grammatical, saunation isnt 11:13:09 saunation is just weird 11:14:08 well it's from the verb saunate, which clearly has something to do with sauna 11:14:12 There's "tarnation", there should be "saunation". 11:14:22 saunate is a verb now? 11:14:25 What the saunation?! You haven't saunaed at all today?! 11:14:39 the phrase is "what in tarnation" 11:14:41 It's a bit like the smurfs do, except, you know, boiling heat. 11:14:48 Oh. Well. 11:14:55 augur: it's not completely a verb. 11:15:12 "tarnation is also not from "tarnate" 11:15:15 its from "entire nation" 11:15:26 i really don't try to make my purposefully horrible word bendings grammatical 11:15:33 you should 11:15:40 no i shouldn't 11:15:42 theyre better when theyre grammatical but nonsensical 11:15:55 that's what most finns say about my finnish bends 11:15:59 lol 11:16:26 not a lolling matter 11:16:33 LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL 11:17:08 so. what if you made childish porn 11:17:13 wut 11:17:27 random word association 11:17:43 i think /you/ should make porn 11:17:49 i've made porn 11:17:55 gimme :o 11:18:03 it's with girls, you wouldn't like it 11:18:06 thats ok 11:18:09 as long as it has you in it :D 11:18:14 \o/ 11:18:34 i doubt i have anything left, and i probably wouldn't give it to you 11:19:12 :( 11:19:19 :D 11:19:24 meany 11:19:40 meany is not adjective 11:19:44 no 11:19:45 its a noun. 11:19:49 no it's not 11:19:52 yes it is. 11:19:54 NO 11:19:57 yes. 11:20:02 i will go check?? 11:20:26 alternatively spelled meanie 11:20:30 http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/meanie 11:20:31 well what do you know it's an alternate spelling i haven't seen 11:20:55 this was, though, exactly how i planned this conversation to go 11:21:06 with you being wrong? 11:21:09 yes 11:21:18 awesome. 11:21:26 it was a clever ruse of mine 11:21:40 you can't possibly remember what we were talking about, now 11:21:42 :o 11:21:46 because you got to be right 11:21:50 and that's the best porn of all 11:21:57 no no 11:22:01 the best porn of all is you naked 11:22:08 :D 11:22:24 seriously, i'm not *that* much above average hotness 11:24:04 you are to me! 11:24:09 and thats all that matters *.* 11:24:22 i suppose 11:24:25 now shoppe! -> 11:24:28 <3 11:35:11 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:48:31 -!- Asztal has joined. 11:52:23 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:58:17 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:18:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:25:08 -!- nornalbion has joined. 12:32:26 -!- jix has joined. 12:37:42 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:46:44 -!- M0ny has quit. 12:50:19 -!- ski__ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 13:29:40 -!- Pthing has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:45:35 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 13:53:59 -!- ehird has joined. 13:56:54 joy, a fucking stupid reddit post saying that apple should have an antitrust suit filed against them 13:57:09 the rules that apply to MS do not apply to apple because THEY ARE PROTECTIONS BECAUSE THEY ARE A MONOPOLY 13:57:12 idiot 13:57:13 s 13:57:23 and for the last time hardware DRM isn't illegal! 13:57:30 gawd 13:59:30 22:03:25 select text without copying, then middle-click somewhere 13:59:32 seriously? 13:59:36 you don't know about this? 14:00:33 02:44:07 fizzie do you speak finnish fluently? 14:00:36 gahahahaha 14:01:17 02:51:20 Oh, and incidentally, I still don't live in Helsinki; I live in Espoo, which (despite several attempts) has not yet transmogrified into one big city with Helsinki. I think I pointed this out once already. 14:01:17 that's what they want you to think 14:01:56 02:54:18 hey youre the one who had a 13 year old girlfriend when you were 19 14:01:56 02:54:22 or whatever 14:01:56 02:54:27 when i was *18* 14:01:56 02:54:32 whatever 14:01:57 02:54:33 same thing 14:01:57 from this we can conclude that 1=2 14:02:17 and we can conclude from it that true is false, and therefore everything is true. 14:02:24 and false 14:02:29 indeed 14:02:35 o 14:02:35 o 14:02:35 o 14:02:51 02:55:36 13-yo's are physically adults, they're just stupider 14:02:51 i'm gonna be like this as an adult? 14:02:52 well shit. 14:03:10 02:57:45 i know very little about people's cocks after about 12, because i haven't seen one in years 14:03:10 i'm afraid to ask how much you know about people's cocks before 12 14:03:13 well i was talking about girls 14:03:37 ehird: a lot, because one of the subjects at school involved getting in the shower with guys. 14:03:47 oh well that doesn't count 14:03:50 that's just their fake penises 14:03:53 ah! 14:04:22 03:01:41 Sauna sex is a good way to get a stroke 14:04:23 BUT WHAT WAS STROKE? (A: Genitals.) 14:04:27 *THEN. 14:04:28 Not but. 14:04:30 Then. 14:05:23 also okloput i have this awesome mental image of saunas where it's physically impossible to see anything more than, say, 5cm in front of you 14:05:26 please tell me it's true 14:05:36 there are such saunas 14:05:52 because of steam 14:05:55 yeah 14:06:05 could make sex rather hard, unless you have a really tiny penis 14:06:07 in most saunas, it's just dark 14:06:16 err why? 14:06:21 well not hard 14:06:24 just risky 14:06:40 well yes, probably, in a sauna 14:06:55 because the seats are a few meters from the floor 14:06:59 exactly 14:07:07 omg 14:07:07 omg 14:07:08 okloput 14:07:11 zero gravity sauna 14:07:15 :D 14:07:19 awesome 14:07:25 i love ideagasms 14:07:39 There's also the whole savusauna thing, without a chimney. 14:07:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauna#Smoke_sauna 14:07:48 fizzie: that, in zero gravity 14:07:48 sex in a zero-gravity sauna while having tea 14:07:54 yes 14:07:57 fizzie: in those, you can see 5cm 14:08:00 s/sauna/smoke sauna/ 14:08:04 oh 14:08:05 that's lame 14:08:06 because there is no smoke in a smoke sauna 14:08:07 utterly lame 14:08:10 ... 14:08:10 xD 14:08:22 because you'd die otherwise 14:08:35 The ones I've been to tend to be pretty black, though, and just generally dark too. 14:08:40 sex in a fatal zero-gravity smoke sauna while having tea and coffee at the same time 14:08:43 well yes, they are very dark 14:09:08 ehird: that sounds pretty awesome, we should totally implement it 14:09:23 right except i'm not too sure about the whole fatal part 14:09:31 ...also lyly would work great as a loanword 14:09:45 would probably beat kiuas in unpronounceability 14:09:55 keeooass 14:11:14 ehird: well right the fatal part may need some honing 14:11:30 unless you want like a perfect final experience thing 14:11:57 i'm thinking that dying of being in the same room as smoke is unpleasant 14:12:24 well stop thinking then 14:12:28 ...or soemthing 14:12:32 *something 14:14:28 Just don't inhale. 14:19:13 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:19:43 -!- upyr[emacs] has joined. 14:25:47 basically i think oxygen like 14:25:48 sucks 14:29:37 I don't think, I just ask the computer to think for me: 14:29:39 i think oxygen going "oh no", then? brilliant! who's driving it? maybe syntax-e identity in psyntax? 14:29:59 "Oxygen going 'oh no'" sounds like trouble ahead. 14:31:25 :D 14:31:50 RecursionRecursionRecursionRecursionButtcursion 14:38:39 http://man.cat-v.org/plan_b/1/ego 14:39:30 Cool, this "in-browser implementation of Python" chokes on class A(object): pass. 15:02:07 http://s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/PwccqNBl5qtxvki3vTc7oo9no1_1280.png?AWSAccessKeyId=0RYTHV9YYQ4W5Q3HQMG2&Expires=1249740096&Signature=iPL8Sjiw8BVkaPnSLT5dhf3vbU8%3D ;; Well, this is simple! 15:03:08 "Quick! In five seconds, how do you upgrade from Vista Business 32-bit to Windows 7 Professional 64-bit?" 15:11:00 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 15:13:07 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:21:08 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:35:14 its from "entire nation" 15:35:29 and here i assumed it was a euphemism for damnation 15:36:23 Be more amusing if it were a euphemism for euphemism. 15:37:36 i will take your word for that. 15:39:28 from this we can conclude that 1=2 15:39:41 and from that we can deduce that bertrand russell is the pope. 15:40:01 (he did it himself, you know.) 15:40:10 mope the pope tote 15:40:22 And from that we can deduce that the Pope is not really Catholic. 15:40:45 systematic! 15:41:03 oerjan: anyway that's clearly a bit off 15:41:07 isn't it three/ 15:41:10 father son holy ghost 15:41:16 so you'd want to be proving 1=3 15:41:18 or rather infinity=3 15:41:39 ehird: i don't think the trinity entered the proof 15:44:10 ehird: n=succ(n), more like. 15:44:10 :) 15:44:25 Is that an infinite recursion of oral? 15:44:35 It may be. 15:44:47 Weird. 15:48:46 "Quick! In five seconds, how do you upgrade from Vista Business 32-bit to Windows 7 Professional 64-bit?" <-- my first guess would be, "not in five seconds." 15:48:53 :D 15:51:25 WTF Starbucks? 15:51:49 what did they do now? 15:51:49 They've started opening unbranded "stealth cafés" in order to compete with local coffee shops. 15:51:57 :D 15:52:06 pikhq: FUD 15:52:25 for one, it says starbucks all over, and there's tons of news about it; nobody's going to be "fooled" 15:52:25 ehird: ? 15:52:39 for the other, most reports from people who have actually been there suggest it isn't really a starbucks 15:52:48 Fair enough. 15:52:49 as in, business-wise it is, but coffee-wise it's better 15:52:54 but i admit 15:52:57 "inspired by starbucks" 15:53:02 is some weird-ass wording 15:53:11 Though if it still has the shit coffee, not worth going. 15:53:50 Uhh, NSFW: http://imgur.com/VJzZW.jpg 15:54:56 More naked obama + unicorn than you could shake a horn at: http://wildammo.com/2009/07/27/unusual-paintings-of-obama-naked-with-unicorns/ 15:55:37 is that Dr. House on the right? 15:56:01 Yes. 15:56:08 And Stalin on the left. 15:56:49 so where are the _usual_ paintings of obama naked with unicorns? 15:57:03 I DON'T WANT TO KNOW 15:57:44 My brain basically shut off with http://wildammo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/obama-painting10.jpg 15:58:35 hmm 15:58:38 the painter appears to be a right-winger 16:00:37 a wing-nut? 16:01:22 obama's testicles are as of yet not painted. 16:01:27 (i hope, at least.) 16:11:10 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:31:10 ehird: Is that an infinite recursion of oral? <<< what? 16:31:21 n = suck(n) 16:31:49 fix suck 16:33:31 mycroftiv: you there? 16:34:05 oh oral, you mean like oral 16:34:16 i assumed that was "or all", written in a condensed form 16:34:17 ... 16:34:31 meaning some well-known function 16:34:36 xD 16:34:46 okloput: well or all is just fold or, obviously 16:34:53 so "or all" is a funny way of saying "any" 16:35:24 exactly, kinda like your mother is 16:35:42 my mother is indeed a funny way of saying any 16:36:03 kar8nga: party! 16:36:13 okloput: we thus must consider the dual abbreviation of "and all" 16:36:30 yessir 16:36:33 andal 16:36:44 R andal l Munroe 16:36:48 * oerjan swats okloput for ruining the joke -----### 16:36:55 andal is also known as all, okloput :P 16:37:37 !haskell :t all or 16:37:49 oerjan: sorry, i wasn't thinking. 16:38:06 all or :: [[Bool]] -> Bool 16:38:20 EgoBot: you're a bit slow today 16:38:27 i like "allor" 16:39:43 !haskell all or [[True,False],[False,True]] 16:39:44 YAY 16:39:44 True 16:39:55 then again, anyand is even nicer 16:40:13 !haskell any and [[True,False],[False,True]] 16:40:14 False 16:41:14 haha wow the LoseThos guy is even turning on the Loper OS guy, who praised it 16:41:18 "I hope your code reads better than your prose:-) 16:41:19 You ripped-off my name, asshole. LoseThos. http://www.losethos.com" 16:41:28 i wonder how he ripped off his name 16:41:31 it has OS in it? 16:41:34 Ah, LoseThos. 16:41:36 then 16:41:46 "You just sound a little stilted. Nice vocabulary, but tone-down the arrogance. 16:41:46 I can read fancy words. God makes riddles when he talks to me. 16:41:47 [another god speak thing] 16:41:47 Your writing sounds like a rant of a person more crazy than I am." 16:42:06 The juxtaposition of "END displacing large servants" and "Your writing sounds like a rant of a person more crazy than I am." is hilarious. 16:42:28 ehird: some people's motivations seem just destined to remain riddles 16:42:48 he's just insane 16:42:50 ridiculously insane 16:42:58 got worse though, he was less crazy beforehand, slightly 16:42:59 I still love his theory that "finished programs don't need memory protection, because they don't malfunction". 16:43:16 if he keeps at this, uh 16:43:17 doesn't seem like that's what his theory is 16:43:24 I really think he needs serious psychiatric help 16:43:29 okloput: It's one of many theories he has. 16:43:39 ehird: there is no such thing as "just insane". insane just means anyone falling outside the very narrow region known as "normal", afaiac 16:43:51 pikhq: seems like he's more saying no protection is fun for certain types of hacking 16:44:04 okloput: really, don't try and justify the guy, it might seem ok on the surface 16:44:08 s/normal/sane/ 16:44:08 but if you really read about it you'll go insane 16:44:09 "Finished programs don't need memory protection, because they don't malfunction." 16:44:17 oerjan: colloquial language in your face 16:44:23 pikhq: that's true actually 16:44:27 pikhq: it's just that there's no finished program 16:44:29 except maybe hello world 16:44:39 ehird: Right. 16:44:52 And maybe junk that's been formally verified. 16:45:07 ... But you really don't design your OS assuming that, now do you? 16:45:07 pikhq: errors in proof, errors in proof system 16:45:09 well 16:45:11 errors in what you're proving 16:45:12 rather 16:45:20 Right. 16:46:15 * ehird realises that for C strings, regexp ^ can be represented as [^\0] 16:46:17 cute 16:46:19 $ as \0, ofc 16:47:13 ehird: er, you mean . ? 16:47:25 oops 16:47:26 i mean 16:47:31 ^ can be represented as [^\0](backtrack) 16:47:31 ofc 16:47:45 or rather 16:47:48 i don't see that 16:47:50 (don't advance [^\0]) 16:47:58 er wait 16:47:59 well hm 16:48:03 there is no \0 at the start 16:48:10 uhh yes that's the point 16:48:11 $ = [\0] though i guess 16:48:17 hm wait 16:48:20 you're right 16:48:24 ^ does have to be special cased 16:48:28 since it's not enforcing not-end 16:48:31 it's enforcing start 16:49:18 take a glio, put it in your pocket 16:49:25 you could use a reverse negative lookahead, i forget the syntax 16:50:20 (?<=[^\0]) 16:50:30 not \0, . 16:50:45 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:50:49 er wait 16:50:55 no you're right 16:51:18 Deewiant is always right 16:51:35 hi ais523 16:55:27 http://pastie.org/575607.txt?key=jkkr84jcur9wbhf8clemq ;; I think this is an optimal compilation of the regexp (save tricks like reading multiple bytes at a time etc) 16:55:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:55:54 hmm that has a redundant break 16:56:02 } 16:56:02 break; 16:56:02 default: 16:56:07 the break can be omitted there 16:56:53 though probably the nfa stuff beats it 16:58:05 hi 16:58:08 hi 16:58:37 you have a regex to C compiler? 16:58:51 no, i'm just toying with writing one for the hell of it 16:58:58 but only actually regular regexs 16:59:11 for (a) simplicity, (b) performance 16:59:21 (Waiter, you got an exponential search in my matcher.) 16:59:35 apparently Perl compiles regexes behind the scenes, when they're encountered 16:59:41 although they have a /o option to only compile once 16:59:45 ais523: its algorithm is terrible, though 16:59:47 http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html 16:59:49 exponential 16:59:54 also note that the first graph is in second 16:59:55 s 16:59:58 the second is in microseconds 17:00:41 * ehird rewrites his compilation as a state machine 17:00:48 it's well-known that there are certain classes of regexen that Perl handles badly, although they tend to be not too hard to avoid 17:00:56 a better algorithm seems like a good idea 17:01:08 although the existing algorithm should be available as an option, for golfing 17:01:16 ais523: the paper covers this 17:01:22 you can just check if there's a backreference in the regexp 17:01:27 and use the exponential algorithm then 17:01:40 no reason to make something an option that can be trivially automatic 17:01:57 ah, ok 17:02:24 I was thinking of code like 'aaaa' =~ /a?a?a?a?(?{print "Hello, world!\n"})aaaa/ 17:02:34 but clearly, it would detect the coderef there and fall back 17:02:42 ais523: that stuff can be done with an NFA, prolly 17:02:50 as long as the actual expression is regular 17:03:01 yes, but it's semantically incorrect to optimize that 17:03:08 "optimise"? 17:03:10 if you don't print hello world 16 times, you're violating perl's spec 17:03:11 it's not an optimisation 17:03:13 it's just a compilation 17:03:23 ais523: it doesn't... constant fold or whatever 17:03:23 so you have to be exponential in expressions like that one 17:03:26 oh 17:03:34 ais523: i don't expect perl would actually adopt it 17:03:41 since it exposes the implementation so much like in that case 17:03:53 also, note that speed of compilation is often more important than speed of execution 17:04:00 the compilation is fast 17:04:01 because regexes are compiled every time they're encountered 17:04:57 ais523: why is that aaaa thing exponential? 17:05:12 cuz perl is stupid 17:05:12 err hmm ?, right 17:05:15 ais523: i would assume that applies only to regexes that contain interpolated variables or such 17:05:38 oerjan: you'd think so, but Perl's really stupid at that, you have to write /o to say "I'm not using an interpolated variable" 17:05:46 (yes a)(not a) is different from (not a)(yes a), so there are 2^(amount of a's) possibilities 17:05:48 in theory, at least; in practice they probably use the as-if rule 17:06:05 okloput: yes, that's it 17:06:23 and IIRC the code-block could even be able to tell which sort of match it was, in a more complicated regex 17:06:25 ais523: huh? i thought /o was for when you _are_ using an interpolated variable but don't want the regex to change after the first use 17:06:32 could be 17:06:41 how often does that happen, though? 17:07:00 ais523: if the variable is not actually changed, that could be common 17:07:02 IIRC perl caches regexes that don't have interpolated variables by default 17:07:17 But if they do have interpolated variables you have to use /o manually 17:07:58 http://pastie.org/575625.txt?key=qetirlttqkzlvzaqnllg 17:08:05 the regexp as an FSM 17:08:13 the string is touched by his noodly appendage 17:08:19 * ehird rewrites it with gotos 17:08:27 (↑ This is considered a socially unacceptable thing to say.) 17:10:41 http://pastie.org/575632.txt?key=maxdtnu8lhtptvmdwqwkfq 17:10:42 Voila. 17:10:45 And this is surely optimal. 17:10:50 er, drop the case 4: line 17:11:03 of course, this doesn't gather the groups 17:11:04 but whatever 17:11:36 * ehird tests it :P 17:12:29 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:14:28 L2: 17:14:29 movl8(%ebp), %eax 17:14:29 movzbl(%eax), %eax 17:14:29 movsbl%al,%eax 17:14:29 cmpl$97, %eax 17:14:30 jeL4 17:14:35 that's some pretty darn optimal code 17:15:04 wow, it gets even better with -O3 17:15:12 L3: 17:15:12 movzbl(%eax), %edx 17:15:12 cmpb$97, %dl 17:15:13 jeL14 17:15:20 ehird: that's an interesting paper, it's mirroring what happened in parser development 17:15:26 ais523: do you know of a good asm→C decompiler? 17:15:31 ehird: no 17:15:31 I wanna see what the heck it compiles my state machine to 17:15:37 darn 17:15:43 whatever it is, it's pretty amazing 17:16:06 http://pastie.org/575640.txt?key=fdsiy0eymjwr3etpfdhx7g 17:16:09 the full code 17:16:57 * ehird constructs a multi-MB string to test it with 17:17:49 -!- Pthing has joined. 17:22:20 ehird: http://www.pastie.org/private/zsluf1vbdaqlnpfzeeftq 17:22:37 Decompilation of that asm, modulo any errors I made 17:22:56 bahaha, it rolled up the bbb check! 17:22:58 It could be optimized in one place 17:23:02 that's just perversely great 17:23:13 Unless it did what it did for alignment reasons 17:23:26 who cares? it did it 17:23:35 Namely, that 'ret = 1' in l6 (movl $1, %eax) 17:23:50 Which is pointless if you jump to l8 immediately afterward 17:24:23 anyway, even the plain state machine would be fast enough 17:24:26 with -O0 17:24:29 I actually missed that jump there: http://www.pastie.org/private/uqvjwjnkm1w0njxdnoqyfw 17:24:46 that is odd indeed 17:25:34 Alternatively, it's doing it there to have some space between the test and the jump 17:25:48 Which might make the pipeline happier or something 17:26:27 I didn't specify -march 17:26:28 I'll try to 17:27:10 ehird: Your C seems to have a floating 'case 4:' 17:27:18 Read the next lines kthx 17:27:32 K 17:27:51 http://pastie.org/575666.txt?key=orndvz7i6izopps9u6gy6q 17:27:51 I actually did, I just completely ignored them thereafter 17:27:54 with march=core2 17:28:02 it just rearranges a bit and aligns 17:28:35 Yep 17:28:49 Yeah, that's the expected behavior of -O0 -march. 17:29:27 pikhq: no, -O3 17:29:47 ehird: Use cfunge's compilation flags and see what happens 17:30:04 Deewiant: give me them and I'll use them; I think actually thinking about them to copy them in would kill m 17:30:04 e 17:30:06 (A good reference for when you want excessive optimization) 17:30:13 anyway, what's the simplest way to get time() except w/ msec 17:30:19 there seems to be no easy function 17:30:24 (measuring how long it takes to match 100mb str) 17:30:29 ehird: I could've sworn that GCC compiled it into a jump table. 17:30:31 *shrug* 17:30:36 pikhq: It did. 17:30:38 More or less. 17:30:41 Oh. 17:30:45 Then I'm just blathering. 17:30:49 well, sort of 17:30:51 it has comparisons 17:30:54 but that's the best way to do it 17:33:13 Hey, he doesn't appear to use them any more, just a bunch of -W 17:33:26 Oh well, whatever 17:33:35 Deewiant: Haha, unlikely. 17:33:50 Maybe you're in the development subbranchtree or something. 17:34:00 Maybe 17:34:54 Blah. 17:35:11 LLVM might give something different if you care enough 17:35:14 I conclude that time() sux because it doesn't have a brother that does milliseconds unpainfully. 17:35:32 Deewiant: I'm kind of unmotivated to compile clang 17:35:45 Whatever 17:35:57 clang seems to compile pretty easily 17:36:00 the makefile worked for me 17:36:21 ais523: you have to do it in-tree with llvm 17:36:24 an svn llvm 17:36:29 yes, I know 17:36:31 so? 17:36:38 well, it didn't work for me, so I don't care 17:40:22 Blargl. 17:41:48 "We conclude that it is certainly fine to use a 160-bit hash function like SHA1 or RIPEMD-160 with compare-by-hash. The chances of an accidental collision is about 2^-160. This is unimaginably small. You are roughly 2^90 times more likely to win a U.S. state lottery and be struck by lightning simultaneously than you are to encounter this type of error in your file system." 17:43:06 (But, however, from our own acooke: 17:43:08 andrew cooke on April 14, 2008 5:50 PM 17:43:08 the 2^-160 is a bit misleading. as the first paper points out (search for "birthday") you're going to start getting collisions when you have around 2^80 blocks. that's still a lot of blocks, but *significantly* less than the 2^160 you might infer from what you wrote.) 17:43:15 (Solution: Use a bigger hash.) 17:47:53 I think, following careful consideration 17:47:55 that my program has a bug. 17:49:11 It seems not. 17:49:54 (pikhq: Deewiant: ais523:) It appears that my program can match a 1gb string in less than a second. 17:50:09 not bad 17:50:12 but, against which regex 17:50:21 Or it can deduce a non-match due to the first char? ;-) 17:50:35 Deewiant: No, the string is carefully constructed to match. 17:50:42 ais523: ^a*(bbb)*$, hand-compiled. Admittedly, not the most complex thing, HOWEVER 17:50:51 there isn't really any more complex operation in regular expressions 17:50:59 and there's no penalty for a long regex in my system 17:51:02 alternation? 17:51:05 so it's about as fast as any 17:51:10 ais523: nope, not more expensive 17:51:15 I already have that, essentially 17:51:19 in my handling of (bbb) 17:51:19 imagine (a|aaaaa)(aaaaaaa*)(aaa)? 17:51:39 ais523: http://pastie.org/575632.txt?key=maxdtnu8lhtptvmdwqwkfq (ignore the case 4:) line 17:51:48 As you can see from how it handles (bbb), we already do such skipping. 17:52:03 Just s/return 0/goto sN/ 17:53:55 Anyway, dammit, if I have this code right, a JIGGABYTE. 17:54:04 The memory usage matches up, so I don't think I'm overflowing any counters or anything. 17:54:16 And I assert it, so it definitely gets to a return 1. 17:54:24 And my other tests work, and it doesn't look buggy. 17:55:37 I'd test a bigger string but I don't have the ram. 17:55:43 Hey fizzie! Get that cluster up here :P 17:56:50 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:56:53 ehird: incidentally, I think b?(bbb)* is more complex than a*(bbb)* 17:57:06 because in the second there, there isn't any ambiguity about how to match any given string, in the first, there is 17:57:18 ehird: Gimme a test proggy, I have about 7 GB available 17:57:42 Deewiant: I'll cook something up. 17:58:05 Deewiant: I 17:58:23 'm afraid that my time counting code didn't work, so you'll just have to clockball how long it takes after printing "Go!". 17:58:23 I 17:58:26 Should only be a second or two. 17:58:51 gettimeofday()? 17:59:09 Deewiant: write me the code to measure how long it took in ms and I'll be happy to pop it in :P 17:59:44 http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=966499 18:00:05 regex7gb.c:53: warning: integer constant is too large for ‘long’ type 18:00:13 well fuck you! :P 18:00:16 Deewiant: kay 18:00:18 Well s/int64/long/ 18:00:37 It's the Ubuntu forums, whaddya expect :-P 18:00:44 I didn't comment 18:01:33 Argh, even dividing by ten it's too big :P 18:01:48 fff 18:01:51 It's microseconds 18:01:54 i need a new approach 18:02:00 Deewiant: I'm talking about my string-builder 18:02:06 Right 18:02:10 -!- augur has joined. 18:02:16 oh wait 18:02:19 it was complaining about another part of code 18:02:20 lol 18:02:30 char *s = malloc(7516192768), *t = s; in particular 18:02:43 hmm there's not actually a way to do that is there 18:02:55 i don't think malloc takes a long long 18:02:56 UL 18:03:00 It takes a size_t 18:03:05 Which will be big enough on my machine 18:03:18 oh, I forgot -m64 18:03:21 * ehird slaps forehead 18:03:36 Silly 32-bit people :-) 18:03:50 Snow Leopard :-P 18:03:59 Silly 32-bit people :-) 18:04:20 Snow Leopard will be 64-bit. >:( 18:04:26 Deewiant: http://pastie.org/575711.txt?key=tymvrwsyvuypohm5h5mra; I didn't add the timer cause I'm lazy 18:04:31 and it'll only take a few secs after go 18:04:47 Like I'm going to bother to get an even semiaccurate measurement 18:05:39 "These kinds of discussions often use Turing machines, but these days not many people are comfortable with Turing machines, so I'm going to use Scheme. [؟]" 18:06:46 9250853 microseconds 18:07:19 It pushed some things into swap though, let's try again 18:07:43 Yeah, more like 4.2 seconds on average 18:07:49 Deewiant: Irrelevant 18:07:52 Most of that is building the string 18:07:57 You have to count after "Go!" 18:08:07 ehird: I added the timer code 18:08:14 Oh :P 18:08:15 And init after go. 18:08:19 Well, that's very good if you ask me. 18:08:40 Built with -O3 -march=native on GCC 4.4.1 18:08:41 Not that anyone's going to be matching 7gb strings, but... it's nice to be able to. 18:08:56 Deewiant: Pfft, you didn't even unroll loops! :-P 18:09:05 What loops? :-P 18:09:14 Deewiant: The string-building ones, duh! 18:09:21 >_< 18:09:34 There should be an -O4 that enables every safe optimisation, and -O5 that enables every optimisation. 18:10:01 you mean -O666 18:10:03 Some optimizations counter each other's work, I think 18:10:16 And some are of course just parameters you can tune 18:10:50 just try every permutation and pick the best 18:10:58 pick the best by timing it by fuzz testing it 18:11:12 (if it takes input) 18:11:36 So what you actually want is -Ojustloopforever 18:11:53 Do them all in parallel of course 18:12:02 -!- FireFly has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:12:02 -!- EgoBot has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:12:02 -!- Leonidas has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 18:12:14 Like that. 18:12:14 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:12:14 -!- EgoBot has joined. 18:12:14 -!- Leonidas has joined. 18:12:17 So what you actually want is -Ojustloopforeveronallavailablecores 18:13:39 Deewiant: For some definition of "forever"? 18:14:29 There's probably around 100 optimization options 18:14:39 So you have 93326215443944152681699238856266700490715968264381621468592963895217599993229915608941463976156518286253697920827223758251185210916864000000000000000000000000 permutations 18:14:58 So yeah, that definition of "forever" 18:15:41 Except that I guess we're not talking about the order in which they're applied 18:16:00 You could have it update the executable to the fastest as it goes. 18:16:01 But rather, whether each one is applied or not 18:16:10 right 18:16:12 ehird: It still has to try every one 18:16:27 1267650600228229401496703205376 18:16:38 Deewiant: yes, but you can use it as you go 18:16:51 anyway, let's assume we have 128 cores; a Nehalem-EX system will be able to do that and we are after all in the future 18:17:00 each of these can run two threads 18:17:18 → 4951760157141521099596496896 18:17:30 let us assume that our program takes 1ms to execute 18:18:07 it will only take 1.56915162 x 10^14 millenia 18:18:11 to fully complet 18:18:11 e 18:18:25 and I can't think of a bigger unit than millenia. 18:18:51 aeon 18:19:03 ill defined 18:19:15 -!- Judofyr has joined. 18:19:15 okay then let aeon := 1 billion years 18:19:32 What's a billion here 18:19:36 10^9? 18:19:39 10^9 of course 18:19:44 anyway 18:19:47 Deewiant: 156915162000000000 years isn't bad 18:19:48 who the fuck uses anything else apart from dead people 18:19:57 156911811 aeons then 18:20:06 I guess I'm dead according to your definition 18:20:14 no, you're just non-english 18:20:21 I also use it in English 18:20:22 if you're not and think a billion is 10^12 you sure should be! 18:20:29 Deewiant: don't 18:20:32 nobody uses it that way in english 18:20:34 not even the british 18:20:38 I know 18:20:50 well, don't, it's dangerous 18:20:59 kalpa 18:21:16 I don't use it in dangerous contexts 18:21:23 Typically I just use milliard and people stare blankly 18:22:03 yes because that is dead people talk 18:22:18 Pthing: Jolly good old bean. 18:22:22 you are grandpa moses' economist talking about grain exports in the bronze age 18:22:28 :D 18:22:34 I guess Canadians have it well since French uses the long scale 18:22:37 10^12 is the superior definition 18:22:39 Pthing: Not quite that dead 18:22:42 okloput: it is 18:22:46 but it's not what is used 18:22:50 also, 10^12 comes up less 18:22:56 whereas 10^9 comes up more 18:22:56 for less = hardly ever 18:22:57 well i don't give a shit, naturally 18:22:57 in, you know 18:22:59 real people units 18:23:03 but yeah billion is a bad name 18:23:10 because it's not a billion like a million is. 18:23:11 yeah who cares about real people 18:23:12 Who cares whether it comes up more 18:23:19 zipf 18:23:24 Deewiant: people who don't want to say "three thousand million" 18:23:26 "10^9 is more common than 10^12 so let's call it billion instead of milliard" 18:23:39 Just use milliard, much easier 18:23:43 milliard + scratchy communication line = million 18:23:54 also it sounds even more french than million 18:24:00 It's shortened to "yard" 18:24:04 hehe 18:24:05 yard 18:24:22 ehird: billion + scratchy communication line = million 18:24:32 Much more so than milliard, IMO :-P 18:24:35 Deewiant: if you can't pronounce things properly 18:24:57 All you need to have is a flu and they sound the same 18:25:07 So, Terry Pratchett says he's going to kill himself. 18:25:07 In financial markets, yard (derived from milliard) is still often used instead of "billion" to avoid ambiguity between "million" and "billion". -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milliard 18:25:39 fuck the financial markets 18:25:50 get off my mill yard 18:26:15 anyway who gives a shit what the idiots still using a 10-base number system use for shorthands 18:26:18 also 18:26:25 you could just use SI prefix + years 18:26:33 okloput: what's your favourite base 18:26:47 2 is fine 18:26:54 okloput: too verbose 18:26:58 i don't really use numbers much 18:27:01 so 156 petayears 18:27:17 Closer to 157 18:27:17 ehird: there are well-known shorthands for writing base-2 18:27:24 like what 18:27:26 using base 4? 18:27:26 hex 18:27:32 for instance 18:27:32 that's not base 2 18:27:34 that's base 16 18:27:39 ehird: it's /also/ a shorthand for base 2 18:27:40 how is that relevant 18:27:51 okloput: because then you like base 16, not base 2! 18:27:58 who gives a shit 18:28:03 numbers are pretty useless anyway 18:28:08 anyway base 3 is better 18:28:10 because you have a middle 18:28:35 or rather base 9 :P 18:28:39 trinary has it's funny bones, yes. 18:30:26 -!- ehird_ has joined. 18:30:43 i hate computers and their disconnection 18:30:46 The Nonary system of notation is used by the fictional civilization, The Culture, found in Iain M. Banks' books.[citation needed] 18:30:48 see 18:30:50 fictional support 18:30:52 nonary 4eva 18:31:45 happy 2672- 18:31:47 er 18:31:49 happy 2672-08-07, anyway 18:36:42 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 18:40:59 i wish there was a vm os 18:41:07 where all its resources are dedicated to running multiple vms at once 18:41:25 current ones sorta don't cut it because your vm is noticeably slower etc than your host 18:44:09 * ehird_ wonders why people write in pseudocode that's so much like real code 18:44:59 ehird_: A VM OS, you say? 18:45:03 yes 18:45:09 it'd make trying OSes out so much nicer 18:45:14 Sounds like an IBM mainframe. 18:45:16 if you could say "dedicate all resources to this OS" 18:45:18 etc 18:45:21 and no partitioning 18:45:33 of course you'd have to insanely optimise the hardware layers 18:45:38 specifically, make them almost direct drivers 18:45:41 Mainframe. 18:45:45 with everything else being optional 18:45:47 pikhq: on consumer hardware. 18:45:54 it's perfectly doable, just hard 18:45:57 ehird_: Fair enough. 18:46:00 easier than writing a full OS, though :P 18:46:02 Perfectly doable, just hard. 18:46:12 Basically, that would amount to a good hypervisor. 18:46:38 yep 18:46:51 anyone know a super-simple png loader/writer lib for c 18:47:01 basically http://pngwriter.sourceforge.net/ for c 18:47:01 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:47:50 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:53:07 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 18:53:12 mh 19:00:28 Microsoft just patented XML document formats... 19:00:34 wat 19:00:35 so they now seem to have a patent on XHTML and ODF, among other things 19:00:44 hopefully, there's no way that particular patent will stand 19:00:51 Not ODF. Their patent specifies "in a single XML file". 19:00:59 ODF uses multiple. 19:01:05 ODF uses single, too 19:01:08 as in, they're both valid 19:02:00 only that part is patented, then 19:02:15 yes 19:02:45 This summary is probably not complete or fully accurate, but it is an impressive collection of distributed computations, produced within or on top of the Arpanet. Much of this work, however, was done in the early 70s; one participant recently commented, “It's hard for me to believe that this all happened seven years ago.” Since that time, we have not witnessed the anticipated blossoming of many distributed applications using the long-haul capabilities of 19:04:52 the Arpanet. 19:12:59 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYluZRwrw9w 19:14:06 anyone? 19:14:46 perjan, no 19:14:51 oerjan* 19:15:02 it is not a euphemism for damnation 19:15:17 "what in the entire nation" ~ "what in the world" 19:15:51 so, if someone writes a rap in lojban I'll paypal them $0 19:16:03 not much of an incentive! 19:16:12 extra incentive: you'll be fucking awesome 19:16:21 no 19:16:25 also it has to rhyme 19:16:27 youll be a guy who wrote a rap in lojban 19:16:32 equivalent 19:17:06 more like opposite 19:17:55 augur you just hate lojban because you suck 19:18:13 no, im just aware of how much of a nerd you have to be to rap in lojban. :P 19:18:15 Oh wow 19:18:21 A lojban rap would rule. 19:18:54 yeah 19:19:02 augur: nerd increases awesomeness 19:19:18 wrong kind of nerdery 19:19:47 augur: yeah well you're a fag 19:19:52 true. 19:20:46 nerdation 19:21:45 speaking of lojban, http://jbotcan.org/xamselsku/index.cgi?id=17 19:23:10 also http://jbotcan.org/xamselsku/index.cgi?id=61 19:23:14 this qdb is hilarious 19:34:08 -!- Asztal has quit (Success). 19:35:33 -!- Asztal has joined. 19:35:59 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:36:19 http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/115736/Sin-bins-for-worst-families 19:36:20 wow 19:38:11 old 19:38:18 1984 ftw 19:40:18 thats crazy, dude 19:56:25 -!- oerjan has quit ("orwlly?"). 20:03:30 -!- ehird_ has quit. 20:07:44 hehehehehe balls 20:21:18 -!- ehird has joined. 20:25:44 guys 20:25:49 simple png reader/writer lib in c 20:25:50 point me! 20:25:57 :P 20:25:58 ehird: libpng 20:26:14 I mean http://pngwriter.sourceforge.net/ simple, not libpng "simple" 20:26:22 pngwriter's in c++ though 20:27:08 libpng has a simple API as well as the full one, IIRC 20:27:13 although IME the full one's been more usefu 20:27:15 *useful 20:27:31 http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-gb&ei=FIB8SrGqOMOfjAf6laGIBw&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=libpng+simple+api&spell=1 20:27:32 third link 20:27:33 latent content: LIBPNG: Worst API, Ever 20:27:33 lawl 20:27:35 ehird, simple as in "simple implementation, low level API" or simple as in "easy to use high level API" 20:27:46 AnMaster: no contradiction. 20:27:59 ehird, well not in theory indeed :P 20:28:03 i already gave a relevant pointer. http://pngwriter.sourceforge.net/quickstart-en.php should remove all doubts as to which 20:28:10 in practise it seems to be 20:28:44 AnMaster: yeah, the functions filename→vector and vector*filename→void must be soo complex 20:29:06 vector? png is bitmapped... what are you talking about 20:29:27 I know you said Swedish mathematics education was piss-poor, 20:29:33 but did they actually give you any classes at all? 20:29:48 oh *that* type of vector. 20:32:02 ehird, it is a hot day here, excuse me for not being up to speed. 25 C at 72% humidity in the evening... Was over 30 C during the day 20:32:19 I so hate early August... 20:32:27 (and late July) 20:32:30 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:32:36 So, the Swedes have resorted to complaining that it's over twenty degrees to justify their intelligence. 20:32:49 -!- augur has joined. 20:32:56 AnMaster: ... That's hot? 20:32:59 ehird, nah. Math education is poor too. Vectors were only introduced in late high school 20:32:59 Somehow, my brain hasn't yet melted from hot temperatures. 20:33:02 pikhq, for Sweden yes 20:33:05 AnMaster: What?! 20:33:07 Vectors, late high school? 20:33:08 That's "finally, it fucking *cooled down*" temperature. 20:33:10 pikhq, and very high humidity 20:33:11 EVEN THE US IS BETTER THAN THAT 20:33:15 I think, at least. 20:33:19 ehird, see. That is what I told you 20:33:20 ehird: ... No, no. 20:33:25 pikhq: oh. 20:33:25 Vectors are covered in college. 20:33:28 Well that's m— 20:33:30 ... 20:33:35 With a *tiny* bit in high school. 20:33:45 AnMaster: 90%? 20:33:47 pikhq, quite close to here 20:33:54 Do USians really not know calculus before they enter university? 20:33:57 Like, even the good ones? 20:34:03 ehird: Only the good ones. 20:34:05 pikhq, well, 72% atm says the thingy that measures it. Was close to 80% yesterday at least 20:34:13 didn't check in the middle of the day 20:34:28 ehird: US public education is *staggeringly* bad. 20:34:48 So much for Ivy League, huh. 20:34:54 all Swedish education is like the US public education 20:34:59 You probably know more mathematics than the average US high school graduate. 20:35:00 Ivy Ihopeyouknowcalculusleague. 20:35:12 we have vectors in high school as well 20:35:13 Why did I attach that to league and not ivy? 20:35:15 The US at least makes up for it by having decent to good post-secondary education. 20:35:15 WE WILL NEVER KNOW 20:35:19 since private education only recently started to grow from some tiny fraction of a percent 20:35:26 pikhq: Vectors are covered in college. <<< xD 20:36:04 okloput: In precalc (an optional course for HS students). 20:36:08 well, there wasn't a *lot* about vectors in high school in fact. 20:36:11 just the basics 20:36:15 ehird, ^ 20:36:28 not that it matters, no one learns anything in high school anyway they can't learn in about 5 hours of lectures in uni. 20:36:46 I learned plenty *in* high school. 20:36:49 okloput, that is probably true 20:36:52 Just... Not *from* high school. 20:36:59 :P 20:37:09 pikhq: been there 20:37:16 I can safely say that from middle school onwards, the school education in this country teaches you precisely and exactly zip. 20:37:18 pikhq, private education? Or a joke about other stuff? 20:37:23 ...until university, at least 20:37:35 AnMaster: He's talking about pornography, duh. 20:37:39 AnMaster: I'm autodidactic. 20:37:42 (Note: He's not, actually.) 20:37:45 ehird, yes that is what I meant with "other stuff" 20:37:47 :P 20:37:52 ehird: Which is an improvement on the US. You stop learning in about elementary. 20:38:01 hmm, he's actually talking about his ability to use a pretentious word to mean "I read Wikipedia" 20:38:11 Autodidactic. I read Wikipedia. The choice is clear. 20:38:16 * AnMaster googles autodidactic 20:38:24 ehird: I had the same tendency to self-teach things before Wikipedia existed. 20:38:32 "self-education" heh 20:38:33 I just read a lot. 20:38:33 right 20:38:45 same with me for programming at least. And some of the math. 20:38:47 Wikipedia used to be more distributed and less accurate /shrug 20:39:28 hah :P I meant learning by reading, not wikipedia specifically 20:40:16 I want to do some hivemind applications; e.g. answering questions by collating the web and IRC etc. 20:40:26 (Then FOOM) 20:40:37 (I'd better do it before someone adds another fact to Cyc!) 20:42:39 ehird: The average USian reads about as well as a US 4th grade student. 20:43:09 Which is to say, they can't even read a novel of moderate length. 20:43:39 About 80% of Americans did not read a single book last year. 20:44:03 well books can be kinda annoying 20:44:28 okay you know what 20:44:29 fuck america 20:44:41 let's gather up all the cool people in the US — should take a few hours — 20:44:42 ehird: My thoughts exactly. 20:44:44 hey this nick is ugly 20:44:47 -!- okloput has changed nick to oklopol. 20:44:53 and shoot it into orbit 20:44:56 oxygen not required 20:44:59 ehird: So, most Americans on Freenode, friends of theirs? 20:45:00 hmm not orbit 20:45:03 send it off to pluto 20:45:14 pikhq: dunno there are plenty of cool people who abstain from freenode for good reasons 20:45:31 (for example, freenode's founder and administration are uh, questionable) 20:45:36 so you want to kill all the cool people in usa 20:45:42 add OFTC and find a way to include the non-programmers 20:45:49 ehird: That's why I said "and friends of theirs". 20:45:55 true 20:45:57 pikhq: recursive? 20:45:59 About 80% of Americans did not read a single book last year. <-- I suspect things are close to as bad in Sweden, That is from personal experience talking to people; I don't have actual numbers handy. 20:46:04 cuz i'm sure that way you'll get a bunch of idiots 20:46:09 ehird: Within reason. 20:46:10 AnMaster: no, that's almost certainly untrue 20:46:14 yeah take the whole closure 20:46:18 sweden is ranked among the top places to live etc 20:46:27 leaving like 5 hermits 20:46:40 ehird: Probably you need a function "coolPerson :: Person -> Bool" 20:46:50 pikhq: x -> Bool, aka Set x 20:46:56 so that's not terribly helpful 20:47:25 Person would have to be a typeclass... 20:47:27 ehird, http://www.scb.se/statistik/LE/LE0101/1976I02/LE0101_1976I02_BR_06_LE103SA0401.pdf seems to indicate it was 30% for men in 1999 20:47:36 nornalbion: really? 20:47:37 and 76% for women 20:47:39 howso 20:47:40 who *read books* 20:47:41 in 1999 20:47:42 ehird, ^ 20:47:49 ehird: I don't think it's a builtin in Haskell, somehow... 20:47:49 so possibly *worse* than US? 20:47:57 nornalbion: type Foo = ... 20:48:00 data Foo = ... 20:48:08 wait misread. Even worse 20:48:10 AnMaster: well we all know men just want sex and women are gentle and emotional 20:48:18 QED 20:48:20 Clearly I shouldn't talk about Haskell because I don't know much :P 20:48:38 typeclasses have existing types as instances anyway 20:48:41 so that wouldn't help 20:48:42 AnMaster: ... That's more than 20% of people reading books. 20:48:57 anyway nornalbion where did you come from anyway 20:48:59 pikhq, ah yes. you said *who didn't read* 20:49:03 ehird: Sine 20:49:07 Yup. 20:49:10 confused me 20:49:21 nornalbion: don't recall seeing you in sine, k 20:49:24 according to that pdf traditional dance is one of the most unpopular activities in Sweden 20:49:24 heh 20:49:32 traditional dance is pretty suck 20:49:44 Adherents of it include: Stallman. 20:50:00 ... I do *not* want to see fat man dancing, thank you. 20:50:01 ehird, well, for women snowboard/windsurfing is even less popular (why combine those two!? makes no sense to me!) 20:50:13 pikhq: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pube5Aynsls 20:50:16 rms + soulja boy 20:50:58 ehird: Old. 20:51:11 not exactly traditional dance :P 20:51:16 The Census bureau defines literacy as "being able to read and write to any extent"... 20:51:19 traditional dance... wait... bad translation. Seems it is called "folk dance" says interwiki links 20:51:25 same thing 20:51:29 ah 20:51:38 and yeah it's suck 20:51:49 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:51:55 AnMaster: also combined snowboarding/windsurfing sounds amazing. 20:51:56 Including "a small handful of familiar words"... 20:52:00 yes yes i know 20:52:03 ehird: I'm Miya 20:52:08 nornalbion: o 20:52:10 ehird, heh 20:52:14 God. So much suck. 20:52:15 silly people and their silly names 20:52:17 ehird: I tried to show you in sine, then noticed you weren't in it. Woops :\/ 20:52:29 blame dylan :P 20:52:38 What did he do to you? :O 20:52:52 dunno i think i asked about something trivial and he got all pissy at me 20:53:13 Kay 20:54:06 ... Only 13% of the US population is able to compare viewpoints in two editorials; interpret a table about blood pressure, age, and physical activities; or compare and compute the cost per ounce of common food items. 20:54:11 D': 20:54:25 hm a question ehird... not sure if you know about this, but... When a laptop is suspended the fans turn off. Could that have any bad effects if the fans were working at full speed just before suspending? 20:54:29 in theory I mean 20:54:35 reduced cooling or something 20:54:36 no 20:54:47 * ehird attempts to rewrite the rest of Baby Got Back, but finds that "when a coder walks in with an itty bitty instruction set" doesn't fit 20:54:48 hm guess no need for cooling once cpu turns off 20:55:06 it shouldn't, although it isn't cooling, the CPU won't get any hotter because it isn't running 20:55:07 guess I could use "lang" 20:55:21 ehird: Listen to Jonathan Coulton singing it for inspiration. 20:55:23 ais523, true. But it won't cool down as fast 20:55:30 in theory 20:55:35 (depending on workload) 20:55:55 compared to suddenly reduced workload I mean with fans still running for a few seconds 20:56:02 AnMaster: i don't think you understand how cooling works 20:56:15 it's not producing heat, so it'll just dissipate into the air 20:57:04 hmm an issue with Baby Got Back is that it's rather biased towards the object being large 20:57:11 whereas we stereotypically go the opposite way 20:57:27 ehird, true. But question is how fast it will cool down. Considering how hot the air becomes where it exits... I'm not positive but it feels like it could melt stuff standing too close, so putting the laptop in a backpack directly after... hrrm 20:58:01 Yeeeeeeeeeeeno. 20:59:02 -!- nornalbion has left (?). 20:59:10 if CPU is around 60 C, then the air exiting would be a bit lower. Not sure how much but let me get a thermometer and put full load on both cores.. brb 20:59:21 AnMaster. It is not going to melt your backpack. 20:59:33 Your CPU will also not die after suspension because that's not how cooling works. 20:59:48 AnMaster: just buy a laptop pad if you're worried anyway 20:59:50 ehird, well that is true. I realised that after I asked 20:59:55 AnMaster: it won't /warm up/ after shutting down, though 20:59:58 *I* need more cooling atm 20:59:59 :) 21:00:09 and so if it would have melted after turning it off, it would have melted beforehand 21:00:19 ais523, don't be too sure. My old first model ibook sometimes failed to shut down the cpu when you put it to sleep 21:00:27 I mean using a non-netbook laptop without a cooling pad is asking for trouble 21:00:32 as in, it crashed right after turning off fan and right before turning off cpu 21:00:42 of course, that was mac os 9 21:00:46 overheating of both your components and uh, making you infertile 21:00:47 rather different 21:00:58 ehird, I use it on a table anyway 21:01:04 yes 21:01:06 it'll still overheat 21:01:13 most companies strongly recommend you use a laptop pad 21:01:34 ehird, didn't see anything about that in the manual from lenovo though 21:01:52 it will be there 21:01:54 Of course they do, so that they can sell you one 21:02:00 in the safety stuff, say 21:02:03 btw, it seems it is quite easy to replace many parts of it. With warranty left I mean. Unlike those macs I have seen ;P 21:02:05 Deewiant: uhh, no 21:02:11 adoption is a simpler alternative to procuring a laptop pad 21:02:16 most laptop companies don't sell laptop pads 21:02:22 oklopol: that doesn't solve it turning off because it overheated 21:02:23 you can even easily replace harddisk by just following three easy steps in the manual :P 21:02:34 ehird: i'm sure it does! 21:02:41 somehow 21:02:41 Then they have some kind of deal with a company who does, same difference 21:02:47 Deewiant: not IME, no. 21:02:52 AnMaster: that's funny, because with a mbp you just screw open the case, take it out and put a new one in 21:03:07 ehird, well, you only need one screw here. 21:03:27 That's good; I can replace the laptop every time I sit it down easily. 21:03:32 s/laptop/HD/ 21:03:34 ehird, :D 21:03:35 I've always wanted to do that. 21:03:41 -!- Pthing has joined. 21:04:38 ehird, does macbook pros have PC-card? 21:04:46 the expresscard thing? 21:04:47 I'm fairly certain plain macbooks doesn't 21:04:50 the 17" one does. 21:04:59 ehird, well similar thingy. Possibly not exactly the same 21:05:00 not sure 21:05:17 also, *do ma 21:05:24 ehird, eh? 21:05:33 21:04] AnMaster: ehird, does macbook pros have PC-card? 21:05:37 s/^2/[2/ 21:05:38 ah 21:05:44 :D 21:05:57 if anyone presents me with a gui irc client for os x that lets me copy lines without fucking the formatting up, I will love them forever 21:06:20 ehird, I was writing "mac book pro" first and added the s afterwards, forgot to change the "does" then 21:06:33 also 21:06:40 funny, because apple's marketing refer to them as singular 21:06:43 macbooks pro? macbooks pros? macbook pros? 21:07:01 MacBook Pros, or, if you're apple, awkawrd sentences like "It makes MacBook Air incredibly light," 21:07:02 ehird, I think I just demonstrated the reason :P 21:07:04 *awkward 21:07:12 As we all know, they only sell one unit of every model. 21:07:16 First come, first served! 21:07:26 ehird, no 21:07:36 They are very clear. 21:07:36 First come, only served! 21:07:40 is what you meant 21:07:47 My statement is still correct. 21:07:57 well ok, but less useful 21:08:39 ehird, btw why would only the 17" model have express card? 21:08:56 I mean, lenovo managed to fit *two* slots in this 15.4" model 21:09:09 stacked on top of each other 21:09:29 because they did a study, found out almost everyone doesn't use it, find out that those who do just put in an SD card reader, replaced it with an SD card slot. Left it in the 17" model for the business/uber-pro people that really, really need it. 21:09:37 AnMaster: that would not work because the macbook pro is a lot thinner 21:09:50 ehird, hm true 21:10:03 0.95" thick, including closed display 21:10:09 ehird, btw, this has an sd reader too 21:10:10 well 21:10:14 on the 15" model 21:10:23 combined SD/MemoryStick/a/few/other/ones 21:10:35 sadly not the single format I actually use. which is CF 21:11:14 incidentally, thing that i learned recently: 21:11:20 movies aren't edited uncompressed or losslessly 21:12:15 ehird, indeed, they are usually scanned from analogue master 21:12:20 at least were 21:12:20 LOL 21:12:22 no, no they're not 21:12:47 ehird, it was ages ago I read about professional movie editing 21:12:51 so yeah, things changed 21:12:59 Middle Ages thereabouts, I assume. 21:13:11 ehird, 2002? 2003? Something like that 21:14:09 so, the lojbanic term for MOO is "computerized imaginary universe" 21:14:13 well, translates as 21:15:00 oh, wait 21:15:04 that's just the name for _the_ lojban moo 21:15:15 then it was like: low quality scan from master, *edit and save the edits*, scan high quality, auto apply the edits (would be too slow to work at the high quality when actually editing, yeah it was a while ago), reprint to analogue film "master" which is then used to create the film reels sent to the cinemas 21:15:37 I was referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProRes_422 21:15:40 ehird, err, name for a word? 21:15:51 AnMaster: ..........no? 21:16:27 well, what do you mean about that "moo" then 21:16:32 >_< 21:16:37 what you said was confusing 21:16:52 Moo is the noise cows make. 21:16:55 do you mean the word "moo" is Lojban for "computerized imaginary universe" 21:16:56 or what 21:16:59 ehird, yes I know that 21:17:17 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:17:21 It's a joke about how lojban uses short words to represent useless, abstract concepts. 21:17:32 oh ok 21:17:52 I'm not familiar enough with lojban to know that it did that 21:18:06 -!- Judofyr has joined. 21:18:08 And that was a joke about the word "gullible" not being in the dictionary. 21:18:33 ehird, :D 21:18:43 Since you didn't get it, let me repeat: 21:18:49 I was bullshitting. 21:19:00 ehird, yes I understand that now 21:19:27 but does it really use short words for useless (in everyday context) concepts? 21:19:48 Yes, and I'm an elephant that can fly. 21:20:03 guess that means "no" 21:20:17 never know with you 21:20:17 Did I say "no"? 21:21:07 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:26:57 -!- Gracenotes has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:26:57 -!- EgoBot has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:26:57 -!- Leonidas has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:26:57 -!- FireFly has quit (bartol.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 21:26:57 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joined. 21:28:03 -!- olegfink has joined. 21:28:03 -!- Dewio has joined. 21:28:03 -!- Robdgreat has joined. 21:28:03 -!- mycroftiv has joined. 21:28:03 -!- cmeme has joined. 21:28:03 -!- comex has joined. 21:28:03 -!- Ilari has joined. 21:28:03 -!- randomity has joined. 21:28:03 -!- SimonRC has joined. 21:28:03 -!- mtve has joined. 21:28:03 -!- fungot has joined. 21:28:03 -!- Deewiant has joined. 21:28:03 -!- dbc has joined. 21:28:03 -!- sebbu has joined. 21:28:03 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 21:28:15 and the clothes 21:28:15 the old style I mean 21:28:15 anyway, with these hydraulic stilts 21:28:15 you could get really long trousers 21:28:15 and get into the guiness book of records 21:28:24 clog: 23:39:46 -!- clog has joined. 23:39:46 -!- clog has joined. 23:39:50 wb clog 23:40:28 i think quite a few people are actually working on integrating plan9 better with the functional paradigm, since the functional approach is very strong in network/signal processing/messaging type scenarios that are generally a good match for plan9 architecturally 23:40:31 mycroftiv, btw. Once plan9 supports modern hardware better I might actually consider switching. Oh and I guess once more software is ported to it as well.. 23:41:00 basically when it works just as out of box on my new thinkpad as ubuntu did. Which I realise is not a reasonable goal at all. 23:41:15 AnMaster: my opinion is that the right way to make use of plan9 is not at all to consider 'switching' - but rather to integrate whatever plan9 tools and tech is useful to you, via one of several methods 23:41:27 mycroftiv, I do have plan9port installed 23:41:30 if that is what you mean 23:41:32 (which might range from an old box acting as a plan9 server, to using plan9port, to using a virtual machine, etc) 23:42:32 I use it sometimes. But really I'm way more used to (gnu) emacs than sam or acme 23:42:33 that is one way to access some of the tools, if you like them - i also think having a small qemu VM running as a headless cpu server is also a very nice and resource efficient way of adding plan9 stuff to your toolset 23:44:08 mycroftiv, does erlang/otp run on plan9... I don't remember that being supported. And I tend to use my old headless computers as parts of a distributed erlang network. Which means I can select between solaris, freebsd and linux really 23:44:45 mycroftiv, otherwise I would probably run it natively already on them 23:44:45 let me do a quick scan of contrib and see if i see anything erlang-related - not sure if someone has ported stuff or not 23:45:21 nope, looks like if any erlang stuff has been done, its not on sources server at least 23:45:30 it would be rather non-trivial I suspect. 23:45:42 certainly, it isn't something I would consider doing. 23:45:51 what with the JIT stuff and such 23:46:22 well, not JIT, more like AOT. Still way over my head. 23:46:37 I guess the basic interpreted bit, maybe. 23:48:23 mycroftiv, anyway. I would really want to use the network fs thingy, but I never figured out where to start with it under linux... So I ended up using nfs over the lan 23:48:51 yes I realize it can do much more than just files. 23:48:56 -!- augur has joined. 23:48:58 still didn't figure out how 23:49:10 there is the kernel option thingy and that is all 23:49:20 well, honestly, the 9p stuff in linux is kind of a hassle, in my experience - i use plan9port but mostly for venti and some other stuff 23:50:15 mycroftiv, since I have modern hardware and I use 3D graphics quite a bit (and want reasonable frame rates) I don't expect I will run anything but linux as the "base" OS during the next few years 23:50:17 :/ 23:50:48 erlang sorta sucks 23:51:03 AnMaster: im not expecting to change away from linux controlling most of my hardware either, but that doesnt interfere with my use of plan9 at all 23:51:48 ehird, that is your opinion. IME all non-trivial programming languages has both good and bad bits. Every non-trivial language has some quirk. 23:52:10 god, I can't state one opinion without AnMaster turning into plato or whatever mentioning "OH, THAT'S YOUR OPINION" 23:52:12 I'm pretty sure I heard you mention some in haskell too ehird. 23:52:20 no, it's an objective fact woven into the universe that erlang sucks!!! 23:52:27 "ERLANG SUCKS" was encoded in the big bang 23:52:29 ehird, ...? 23:52:41 factory 23:52:42 mycroftiv, right. 23:52:46 in fact the LHC has proved that it is a universal truth that erlang sucks 23:52:46 fun fact. 23:53:01 ehird, why do you never give up... 23:53:12 ehird: are you trying to yank my chains there......?? 23:53:13 (with being so childish) 23:53:16 the point <-------------> anmaster's head 23:53:26 The LHC didn't run yet, ehird 23:53:29 Don't be silly 23:53:30 why would you tell such an outrageous lie 23:53:35 Slereah_: doesn't matter, i used the sucking of erlang to see into the future 23:53:47 i mean god, someone tell me what time it id 23:53:48 AnMaster: to spell it out for you 23:53:48 *is 23:53:51 every time i say an opinion 23:53:53 But if you can see the future with it, that doesn't suck 23:53:54 you go "THAT'S YOUR OPINION" 23:53:58 like you're making some epic point 23:53:59 How do you resolve that paradox? 23:54:01 ehird, not every time 23:54:02 of course it's my damn opinion, I SAID IT 23:54:03 check logs 23:54:10 Slereah_: it sucks as a programming language 23:54:12 ehird: really, isnt it just YOUR OPINION that every time you say an opinion, he says that? 23:54:16 oh fuck you, shall i talk in objective predicates all the time? 23:54:23 HEY BY EVERY TIME MAYBE I JUST MEAN REALLY OFTEN 23:54:24 crazy 23:54:34 human communication being subjective and imprecise. who'da thunk it! 23:55:09 ehird, isn't lojban supposed to "fix" that? 23:55:20 now you're surely trolling 23:55:23 i rate ehird's rant 9.0 out of 10 on the rantmeter 23:55:26 ehird, yes :P 23:55:37 imo AnMaster doesn't use "that's your opinion" too much, or in stupid ways, then again that's just my opinion 23:55:43 mycroftiv, only? I would place it at 9.8 at leasyt 23:55:44 least* 23:55:48 oklopol: THAT'S JUST YOUR OPINION 23:55:52 mycroftiv: why thank you 23:55:54 oklopol, :D 23:55:58 AnMaster: i have pretty high standards for rants, since i deliver quite a few myself when triggered 23:56:20 ehird: good point! 23:56:37 oklopol: anyway it's 23:56 bst 23:56:39 mycroftiv, ouch 23:56:50 which is, fun fact, gmt+1 23:56:52 ehird: i envy your pasty present. 23:56:59 in here it's much later 23:57:03 00:56 here 23:57:17 no it's not, it's 00:57 there 23:57:23 was when you said that line, too 23:57:30 this reminds me actually of one of my own rants: when i was in school, we had to learn to classify statements as 'fact' vs. 'opinion' - but the problem is, the definition of 'fact' was basically purely based on authority 23:57:35 and for mycroftiv it seems to be much much earlier 23:57:45 oklopol: just go around the world 23:57:46 really fast 23:57:50 ehird, damn yes, I looked at clock and then it switched half a second later 23:57:51 and you'll never spend any time 23:58:09 FACT: Gay marriage will destroy the world. 23:58:27 ehird, so slighly slower than a concorde then? 23:58:29 (FACT: Dettol protects?) 23:58:41 AnMaster: concorde goes faster than sound, not time. 23:58:55 gay marriage is meaningless 23:58:58 ehird, faster than timezones 23:59:13 oklopol: tru dat, also interracial marriage 23:59:17 if they already get the legal benefits 23:59:26 the secret of eternal youth is circling the pole going against the flow of timezones, you go back in time one day per revolution 23:59:39 mycroftiv: but that's what i'm saying! 23:59:41 just go fast enough 23:59:47 well marriage isn't pointless, from a legal standpoint 23:59:48 and time will never pass an hour 2009-08-08: 00:00:05 you dont have to go fast at all, if you go right up to the pole, you can just put your hand on the pole and spin around it in circles til you get dizzy 00:00:17 mycroftiv: The secret of eternal youth is going to a black hole. 00:00:27 pikhq, and doing what? 00:00:30 pikhq: and balancing on the event horizon? 00:00:33 AnMaster: nothing 00:00:33 pikhq: also secret of becoming thin 00:00:36 very thing 00:00:38 *thin 00:00:51 ehird: And also the secret of how not to be seen. 00:01:13 pikhq: not true - you are *eternally* visible to external observers if you fall into a black hole 00:01:23 hmm invisibility, eternal youth and thinness 00:01:26 ehird: And also the secret of how not to be seen. <-- is it just me or does that remind you of monty python for some reason? 00:01:28 black holes could solve all our problems. 00:01:30 not really, after a while you'll get so faint that people won't be able to see the resulting photons 00:01:31 however its true you get so red-shifted its very hard to actually see you 00:01:33 AnMaster: no 00:01:33 mycroftiv: No. 00:01:39 AnMaster: Not just you. 00:01:42 pikhq, ah 00:01:47 dammit AnMaster 00:01:53 you broke the chain of "name: no" 00:01:54 I can't think of what the sketch was though 00:01:59 ^what ais523 said, he understands what i meant 00:02:01 even pikhq continued it though accidentally 00:02:04 ehird, no I didn't. pikhq did 00:02:11 uh he did? 00:02:18 [00:01] pikhq: mycroftiv: No. 00:02:18 ehird, "not just" 00:02:18 [00:01] pikhq: AnMaster: No[…] 00:02:23 not starts with no 00:02:24 fun fact 00:02:35 ehird, true, but thought you meant the whole message 00:02:38 AnMaster: "How Not to be Seen" is the name of the sketch. 00:02:44 then pikhq would have broken it with "No." 00:02:46 since that has a dot 00:03:01 pikhq, ah yes... 00:03:22 pikhq, now I remember... 00:03:35 ehird, yes that too 00:04:21 ehird, but didn't notice the . first time 00:05:13 mycroftiv: have you seen the absurd LoseThos? 00:05:19 http://www.losethos.com/ 00:05:27 ehird: of course, i actually tried to download and run it awhile ago even 00:05:27 he has 680x480 16 colour graphics... yet 12GB of RAM 00:05:28 why? 00:05:30 aw 00:05:32 i can't ramble about it 00:05:35 i looove rambling about it and him 00:05:37 he's so crazy 00:05:44 especially his markov chain-esque godspeak 00:05:44 ive even seen him in forum debates 00:05:53 http://www.loper-os.org/?p=46#comment-819 00:05:55 "Your writing sounds like a rant of a person more crazy than I am." 00:06:56 oh man 00:06:57 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/97qbw/12_men_went_to_the_moon_using_an_understandable/c0br1sq?context=1 00:07:00 It's got God for on-line support. (random words or passages on a plug-in hot key.) 00:07:11 he is seriously advocating using his babble program to talk to god for help using the OS 00:07:11 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:07:13 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:07:31 im crazy enough to appreciate the genius of that idea, but not crazy enough to think it would work 00:08:01 however the idea that sampling the 'random numbers supplied by the universe' at a given point is a way of finding hidden mechanism is something that 'most people' seem to actually believe 00:08:21 what's that meant to mean 00:08:43 ehird: thats what astrology, tarot, i ching, etc, all have as their idea - you get some random numbers, interpret them by rule, the universe hides meaning in them 00:08:52 ah. 00:09:05 mycroftiv: i'm fairly sure adherents don't consider them random per se, even with hidden meaning 00:09:08 i dont believe in it myself, but if you press people on it, they think there is 'some truth' to those things, that they 'can work sometimes, for some people' 00:09:11 that is, the meaning isn't hidden in them, they ARE the mening 00:09:24 also, it's hopeless talking to such people 00:09:35 such people fill our world, we dont have much choice but to talk to them 00:09:42 their reality is always full of hopeless contradiction and rampant subjectivism of absolutely everything; solipsist-level 00:10:01 mycroftiv: but that's what the internet is for! :P 00:10:25 what a shock everyone would get if it turned out to be true! (not that it is likely to ever turn out that way) 00:10:27 well, subjectivist philosophy is hopefully a bit more respectable than solipsism...but its true that the average person certainly retreats to patently solipsistic style reasoning if you try to engage them on the topic 00:10:59 a statement like "everyone has their own truth and words dont really mean anything" is where trying to establish a consistent framework of definitions for people's own statements usually gets to, and quickly 00:11:04 AnMaster: no 00:11:08 nobody would get a shock 00:11:11 only one person. 00:11:18 ehird, well, every scientist 00:11:27 just asking people to provide their own freely chosen definitions for the terms they use in their statements will make them very angry if you press the point, generally 00:11:27 i don't think you understand what solipsism means. 00:11:37 AnMaster: if solipsism is correct, you don't exist. 00:11:40 you are not conscious. 00:11:40 ehird, I think you are referring to something else that I did 00:11:43 my brain made you up. 00:11:47 mycroftiv too 00:11:48 ehird, I meant i ching and such 00:11:50 in fact, everyone but me 00:11:53 and tarot 00:11:54 and so on 00:11:57 ehird, ^ 00:11:59 AnMaster: your referent was very vague and delayed 00:12:03 ehird, yes it was 00:12:04 My brain made me up. 00:12:14 I am a figment of my own imagination. 00:12:38 i'm a figment of my toes 00:13:05 Your toes are a figment of your mom. 00:13:10 wow 00:14:16 shhhh, you guys are talking to loud - you guys are gonna wake the colorless green ideas, they are busy sleeping furiously 00:14:25 s/to/too/ 00:14:53 soooooooo 00:15:04 mycroftiv: what vm host do you use for plan 9 btw? 00:15:11 it's always been slow when I've tried it 00:15:22 both qemu and vmware server free beer 00:15:34 qemu was the one that was dog slow 00:15:42 also graphics drivers 00:15:43 i bet you were using qemu to do the graphics though 00:15:46 yeah, a vm with driver problems 00:15:47 oh the irony 00:15:49 mycroftiv: erm yes 00:16:07 i never have qemu do the graphics, i run my VMs as headless CPU servers and always drawterm in or just import from them 00:16:16 that doesn't give me rio. 00:16:20 yes it does 00:16:23 drawterm is rio 00:16:25 oh 00:16:36 but my middle mouse button doesn't work! 00:16:42 does in my drawterm 00:16:48 did you not set the mousetype correctly? 00:16:48 i mean in general :P 00:17:15 my middle mouse button does scrolling in plan9, as well as the 'button 2 click' functionality that is the original mouse vocabulary 00:17:24 i don't think you understand mycroftiv 00:17:27 the middle mouse button on my mouse 00:17:30 it doesn't work. 00:17:37 oh! 00:17:49 * ehird notes: to talk to mycroftiv, repeat line a lot 00:18:27 um, well, usually when someone says that 'X doesnt work' in a computer context, its at the software level - because most hardware that is broken gets unplugged and different component substituted 00:18:38 true dat 00:18:42 all my other usb mice are unusable though 00:18:49 either they don't have a scrollwheel or they're not usb mice. 00:18:58 apart from my mighty mouse 00:19:10 but in its touch-sensitive glory, the right click has become temperamental 00:19:13 if someone is installing ubuntu and says "my monitor isnt working" im gonna assume they need help with an X server problem, not a coupon to wal-mart 00:19:16 and after enough time, just stops working 00:19:27 also, this mouse feels nice. 00:20:43 that reminds me, indirectly, i think im gonna find (since someone probably already did it) or write the patch to make the horrible scrollbars in plan9 windows behave conventionally 00:20:58 i've never seen a scrollbar in plan 9 00:21:10 or maybe i have 00:21:11 * mycroftiv gives ehird new glasses 00:21:15 ah yes 00:21:17 i never use scrollbars though 00:21:18 who does? 00:21:42 hmm rio's interface could be very interesting with one of those fancy multitouch trackpads on the macbook pros 00:21:53 you could basically eliminate the window menu 00:21:55 yeah actually rio could very easily be updated to a multitouch moel and be quite nice 00:22:03 yeah 00:22:22 problem being the drivers of course 00:22:44 hmm that reminds me, when we are talking about fundamental issues... 00:23:03 "how do you do drivers?" 00:23:10 the fact that despite them being open-source, drivers are hard to reuse without extensive modification, is so frustrating 00:23:36 damn i thought i was gonna be able to rant about my os 00:23:42 but linux drivers suck. 00:24:45 the fact that the linux kernel is so competent now at handling hardware but those free software drivers havent resulted in *every* free os being equally capable is just so damn sad, but its a symptom of the deeply ad-hoc nature of how everything is engineered 00:24:55 to hell with kernsl 00:24:57 kernels 00:25:34 TO HELL 00:26:04 (that was indeed an awkward attempt to segue into talking about my OS!) 00:27:21 (instead it killed the chat) 00:27:29 uh, were waiting for you to start talking 00:27:38 with your brilliantly prepared segue having established the context 00:27:44 awwwwwwwkwaaaaaaaar 00:27:44 d 00:30:07 Sooooooooooo 00:30:11 What state are we in 00:30:12 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:30:27 -!- Judofyr has joined. 00:30:33 im in state 'move right on tape until encountering a / ' 00:30:37 are we still waiting for me 00:31:51 well this is a multitasking preemptive IRC so we arent strictly 'waiting', if some other event occurs we can context switch to a new process 00:32:00 >_< 00:33:55 still awkward! 00:35:05 * mycroftiv slaps ehird with a large trout until he says whatever the hell he was gonna say 00:35:12 but i don't know what context we're in! 00:35:20 much *more* awkward to get trout-slapped than just say something, isnt it? 00:35:33 depends 00:36:47 fine then, have some more 00:36:51 * mycroftiv continues to troutslap ehird 00:36:59 we are not amused. 00:37:59 hdskjfhadf 00:38:52 mycroftiv: / 00:39:21 * mycroftiv removes the / from the tape and begins to travel left until encountering a blank space 00:40:12 i was going to talk about my os wasn't i 00:40:18 hands up if you want to know how hardware/drivers work in my os. 00:41:03 if we raise our hands, how can we type on our keyboards to let you know our hands are raised? 00:41:09 magic. 00:42:43 you can tell because people aren't typing 00:43:49 mycroftiv: ok you don't have to raise your hand 00:43:51 you can just type it 00:43:57 -!- Azstal has joined. 00:44:25 i hope the user interface for getting information out of your os is easier than the user interface you present in IRC for us getting the information from you 00:45:01 they differ? 00:45:33 you could raise your keyboard with your hand 00:45:42 mycroftiv: should i just start blabbing 00:45:50 19 minutes and counting currently on latency between ehird signalling the channel he had information to communicate and the delivery of said information 00:45:54 oops, we just hit 20 00:45:59 i hate you 00:46:02 SO TELL US ABOUT THE DRIVER MODEL ALREADY 00:46:08 OKAY 00:46:09 finally 00:46:13 ummm 00:46:19 wow this is going to be so anticlimatic 00:46:22 should i even bother. i wonder. 00:46:45 (mycroftiv tears out my soul.) 00:46:46 up to you, do you enjoy the troutslapping? 00:46:47 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:46:52 no. 00:46:58 GregorR-L enjoys troutslapping. 00:47:03 slap him instead. 00:47:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:47:16 i doubt he would tell me about how the drivers work in your os though. 00:47:29 so i dont see how it would maximize my utility 00:47:48 your mo 00:47:50 m 00:48:00 anyway basically 00:48:08 drivers are voluntary 00:48:10 as in 00:48:20 any object that can get another object with which to communicate directly to the hardware 00:48:26 if my hard drive driver doesnt volunteer, i cant make it work? 00:48:28 can offer its services to any other object allowed to access it 00:48:34 mycroftiv: shush you 00:48:36 so basically 00:48:42 with these decentralised driver objects 00:48:50 we can define eg interfaces 00:48:54 and supply relevant driver objects 00:48:56 and the like 00:49:04 and using some hardware is just getting the relevant object 00:49:16 a driver is just something that translates sugary messages into communication with the low-level object 00:49:23 sounds like the correct model for your os, indeed 00:49:25 nothing special, nothing in the "kernel" (there is no kernel) 00:51:18 it pleases me when stuff just fits in my model without any new "kernel" code or whatever 00:51:22 reaffirms that it's a good model 00:53:06 mycroftiv: you know, if there wasn't the issue of Other People's Things being unreliable, and slowness of the internet, I'd probably encrypt every object and distribute the storage across every other machine 00:53:17 alas those are bohh false 00:53:18 *both 00:53:21 oooooof 00:53:26 every other machine running that OS, that is 00:53:47 but drives disappear, network nodes disappear, and the internet is slow. 00:53:52 there are a couple projects in existence that do that - i forget what the main one is called 00:53:57 not surprised 00:54:07 but i dont think making that your *default* is at all sane - as you correctly have stated 00:54:23 sometimes I swear that people have never heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacies_of_Distributed_Computing 00:54:57 heh. well, believe me, i have. 00:55:08 and wow is it maddening to design around all those issues... 00:55:43 sometimes i think the notion of a computer is flawed. 00:55:45 my first big plan9 project was kind of a distributed DNS-for-9p that ties into the inferno registry, and 99.9% of my development time on it was working out how to handle every possible failure mode 00:56:11 * ehird tries to find a piece of vm software well-suited to playing with plan9 00:56:20 vmware fusion/parallels aren't suitable, they're way too windows-centric... 00:56:34 you using os x as host os? 00:56:38 yeah 00:56:39 im not sure what the best solution is for that 00:56:44 do you know about 9vx? 00:56:47 well qemu and stuff work but 00:56:52 mycroftiv: yeah, it's not reaaaaaaal plan 9 :P 00:57:01 i believe there is a pretty decent os x version of 9vx - and yes it is, especially if you use a full tree 00:57:13 but but but. 00:57:15 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:57:18 you can get the regular plan9 .iso and copy it over to your filesystem and run 9vx from it 00:57:27 the 9vx binary distribution is sadly crap, i agree 00:57:33 but but but but but but but but 00:57:37 it isn't exactly the same! 00:57:41 i know, thats true 00:57:44 it uses the host fs doesn't i 00:57:45 t 00:57:52 right, although thats kind of an advantage really 00:57:55 nooooooooooo 00:57:59 gives you natural integration between the systems 00:58:04 it is my escape from resource forks :-P 00:58:28 wait, resource forks still exist in the mac os? are you joking? or am i confused? 00:58:45 they do indeed 00:58:52 wow, i thought os x got rid of those... 00:59:08 No, it's somewhat NeXTish as well. 00:59:11 how can os x be a UNIX then? sorry, i should know this, i dont keep up on os x like i should 00:59:16 well 00:59:18 let me explain 00:59:30 here, we use = and + to mean "bastard of x, y and z" 00:59:44 ironically, i have a white plastic imac but i run gnu/linux on it, havent booted it to os x in forever and i never really learned what was up with os x before turning it into primarily leenooks box 01:00:33 Mac OS X = Darwin (derivative of XNU) + NEXTSTEP (XNU (BSD + Mach) + own stuff) + FreeBSD + Mac OS + own stuff 01:00:37 cower in fear! 01:00:47 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:00:52 sure i know that, conceptually - i know the hsitory, carbon, cocoa, blah blah, mach etc 01:00:55 well the Mac OS part is basically the fs 01:01:00 it uses the mac os fs with changes to make it unix-compatible 01:01:03 thus resource forks are retained 01:01:06 Nightmare website: http://farmingdale.edu/lieoc 01:01:14 ehird: Throw in some GNU for good measure. 01:02:00 pikhq: not really 01:02:10 ... Fine, mostly just the GNU C compiler. 01:02:13 isnt BASH the shell though? 01:02:15 Which is almost everywhere. 01:02:19 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:02:19 mycroftiv: by default, yes 01:02:22 zsh used to be 01:02:24 mycroftiv: Which is almost everywhere. 01:02:29 ehird: No, csh. 01:02:30 pikhq: they're working on replacing gcc with llvm/clang 01:02:31 due to gpl 3 01:02:32 and no 01:02:34 it used to be zsh 01:02:39 i know this because i have used os x 10.2 01:02:40 No. That was csh. 01:02:44 no 01:02:45 it was not 01:02:48 That shit was C shell. 01:02:50 it used to be tcsh 01:02:52 then it was zsh 01:02:54 then it was bash 01:03:14 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:05:32 mycroftiv: is there a way to get 9vx to use a big file as a block device? 01:05:35 if so, then I'll consider using it 01:05:55 well, sure, of course 01:06:19 you can either just run fossil/venti (if thats the idea) from flat files, or you could use devfs to make virtual devices from them 01:06:27 yeah, I wanted to use fossil 01:06:40 basically I just want a plan 9 system whose kernel doesn't get emulated.userspace 01:06:44 s/userspace$// 01:06:56 you can make a fossil, problem is that without patching that fossil wont be your *boot* fossil which i gather is also what you want? 01:07:27 well, yes. 01:07:42 right, thats possible, but it starts to get into the realm of patching-and-hacking 01:07:52 i'll just use a fast vm + drawterm i guess 01:08:10 night 01:08:16 good night 01:08:22 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:08:35 since you are using os x, i unfortunately cant really push my own toolchain on you, since i distribute it in linux-centric form 01:09:15 otherwise id be saying you should download my gridtools stuff since its all set up as a true modular multinode plan9 system already 01:11:01 the thing about plan9 thats frustrating is that the base bell labs .iso distribution is so far removed from a fully configured setup that most people never get to the point of experiencing the whole purpose of the os, since there is a ton of not-very-graceful admin stuff required to make the 'magic' happen 01:13:25 ehird: thats why your ideas i think are fundamentally sound - to express things crudely, you want to 'cut out the middleman' of all the annoying implementation/administrative details of running a computer, by making the upper and lower layers more conceptually unified. 01:13:53 of course, as a basic concept that isnt new and in some ways that is what everyone (and every failed and awkward system) was trying to achieve :D 01:14:48 thats not criticism, just an acknowledgment of the difficulties of the task and a recognition that smart people have been trying to make sane and sensible systems for a long time 01:17:20 Nightmare website: http://farmingdale.edu/lieoc <-- doesn't load Sgeo 01:17:22 at all 01:19:15 back 01:19:19 wb 01:20:47 mycroftiv: i do want to cut out the middleman, I think yours is incidental though 01:20:51 my main driver is: 01:20:56 well two things 01:21:06 one, we have so much useless work 01:21:07 like 01:21:11 we separate tasks too much 01:21:16 we separate application from application 01:21:17 ITS 01:21:20 we separate objects from disk 01:21:22 AnMaster, the page apparently is a 302 status code, which goes to an HTML page that uses a meta tag to go to the proper place 01:21:27 AnMaster, check the source? 01:21:29 mycroftiv: and the second, 01:21:37 we have too much duplication 01:21:38 so many VMs 01:21:41 so many garbage collectors 01:21:44 Sgeo, can't. get a "connection reset during loading" message 01:21:44 so many address books 01:21:49 so many everythings 01:21:56 Sgeo, so don't even get past HTTP headers I guess 01:22:01 Does http://www.farmingdale.edu/campuspages/campusaffiliates/lieoc/index.html work? 01:22:01 well, all of those things you are saying sound to me like many of them fit conceptually into the broad idea of 'cut out the middleman' 01:22:03 as a result of fixing those two everything fits together 01:22:05 mycroftiv: yeah 01:22:07 they do 01:22:15 Sgeo, nop 01:22:18 also, link to your toolchain thing anyway? 01:22:21 Sgeo, or rather, a bit 01:22:44 Sgeo, I get headers but no document 01:22:54 Huh 01:22:55 200 that is 01:23:07 Sgeo, note: cookies and javascript are *off* 01:23:09 mycroftiv: even if i can't use it i'm interested 01:23:15 AnMaster, that may well be it 01:23:18 ehird: 9gridchan.org is my website with tons of plan9 related stuff, a full explanation and context is maybe offtopic for this channel but feel free to ask whatever 01:23:26 Sgeo, not going to turn them on 01:23:36 9gridchan, is that like a 4chan derivative on a grid? 01:23:41 :P 01:23:46 what's this #s 01:23:47 ehird: uh, not really, but sort of, yeah 01:24:12 how on earth is it sort of :P 01:24:27 The css for this page: http://pastie.org/576211 01:24:31 well, its a grid that anyone can connect to so that is chan-like 01:24:49 i was referring more to things like 4chan → 7chan and the like 01:24:52 i think the chan imageboards are some of the better stuff on the net conceptually, free speech, simple interface, no barrier to entry, etc 01:24:54 distributed pointlessness! 01:25:03 mycroftiv: yeah i know all the arguments in favour of them 01:25:41 mycroftiv, you think /b/ is "[one] of the better stuff on the net conceptually"? 01:25:45 ;P 01:25:49 AnMaster: ad hominem, strawman 01:25:53 you lose 01:25:55 (yeah I know what you mean) 01:25:57 ehird, no 01:25:59 (more strawman than ad hominem) 01:26:02 ehird, it is a joke :P 01:26:07 AnMaster: well, if you read my actual text above, that isnt what i said, so i think the statement i made was pretty clear 01:26:13 the only flaw with your jokes AnMaster 01:26:19 is that none of them are ever funny or carry any hint of being jokes. 01:26:22 ehird, is that I forget ~ 01:27:09 The css for this page: http://pastie.org/576211 <-- and? 01:27:39 Did you look at it? .style7 ? 01:28:03 Sgeo, not good names. and? 01:28:19 * Sgeo was facepalming at the bad names 01:28:21 mycroftiv, on your website... what is bind -a '#¤' /dev 01:28:27 that looks like encoding error to me 01:28:41 using firefox 01:29:07 yup, that does indeed look like an error, lets check the original ns to see what it should be 01:29:19 mycroftiv, and what does the #b and such mean? 01:29:37 those are how plan9 talks about binding device drivers into the namespace, pretty much 01:29:44 hm ok 01:29:57 mycroftiv: isn't /srv mostly used? 01:29:59 at least that's what i saw 01:30:01 ah ok, yup, thats a weird unicode symbol that clearly has a different visual appearance 01:30:22 mycroftiv, make web server send correct encoding :) 01:30:26 ehird: well /srv is where the user level file servers usually post themselves for stuff to mount, but the kernel level drivers work a bit differently i would say 01:30:47 mycroftiv: so this drawterm stuff, what do i have to do to get it working? 01:31:06 ehird: from what base are you starting? default bell labs .iso installed into a vm, or ? 01:31:25 well, I have the iso and nothing else 01:31:37 the less friction this takes to get working the better 01:31:51 ehird, this is plan9... what do you think 01:32:00 AnMaster: okay, fuck off, seriously 01:32:10 for the last hours all you've done is dis plan 9 and other crap 01:32:11 as in: it isn't smoothly polished ubuntu. 01:32:17 ehird, I like plan9 as I said 01:32:20 read above 01:32:23 hm, how much plan9 related spam tech/support do you want in this channel? 01:32:29 you like it in the most vaguest, tenuous sense possible 01:32:33 just enough so you can hate on it all the time 01:32:39 and i never said i wanted ubuntu; strawman fallacy 01:32:45 I just find it amusing that you think it will work out of box more or less 01:32:48 i said i wanted the least frictionful way possible 01:32:50 ehird, ^ 01:32:55 AnMaster: i've used plan 9. it worked out of the box 01:32:58 and did i ever say that? 01:32:59 no 01:33:04 i never said i wanted it working out of the box 01:33:05 ehird, close 01:33:08 night 01:33:09 no 01:33:12 not close at all 01:33:14 you are truly excelling putting words in my mouth 01:33:18 new heights of strawman 01:33:53 AnMaster: ironically, i actually provide preconfigured preinstalled plan9 systems that instantiate a full 4 functional node grid on your desktop out of the box, but i only provide that for linux ;) 01:34:05 mycroftiv: impossible, that doesn't fit his biases 01:34:20 mycroftiv, awesome and now I really need to sleep *turns off monitor* 01:34:58 inferno has always confused me 01:35:02 why do you want an OS that can only run virtualised? 01:35:20 actually inferno can also run natively, but that isnt very common except on small devices 01:35:26 like inferno on the nintendo ds 01:35:28 well w/e 01:35:53 i dunno, you dont like sqweak right? well its not too different from that - or from java in a different way, i mean java is real world popular. 01:36:07 nah 01:36:10 java just has a vm underneath 01:36:14 that's basically an implementation detail 01:36:16 but besides, whats an os, whats software? i think its a false dichotomy 01:36:26 well, think of inferno as the vm implementation for the limbo language 01:36:29 you ever looked at limbo? 01:36:30 absolutely 01:36:35 i'm not making an os, i'm making a system 01:36:45 it boots up and comes with a set of base objects "absolutely free" 01:37:00 mycroftiv: i've seen limbo. 01:37:02 thats good, im tired of paying $5 per boot 01:37:06 looks like a pretty boring lang tbh 01:37:43 i havent learned it, but a lot of people like it for its concurrency/message passing features i guess - and by 'a lot of people' i mean 'a handful of people with plan9/inferno interests' 01:38:47 limbo is actually maybe the most 'on topic' thing from the plan9 universe for this channel - well, that and alef of course 01:38:55 mm 01:39:07 mycroftiv: how smoothly does plan9 run with qemu/drawterm? 01:39:16 very nicely in my experience, even on moderate hardware 01:39:39 I'm looking for more cellular automaton to make into ties. There are only two good ECAs, but I can extend that to size-5 neighborhoods and then the range is almost endless. 01:39:39 qemu is basically the slowest emulator apart from bochs 01:39:39 much better than with qemu providing the graphics 01:39:39 you aren't using the kqemu thing are you? 01:39:39 i can't 01:39:39 it's linux only 01:39:57 GregorR-L: make a cellular automata whose atoms are cellular automata 01:40:01 i use kqemu on some boxes but not all, and even without it, i get performance that i find acceptable 01:40:05 and use a CA to generate CAs 01:40:15 but for all i know qemu on os x is even slower than slow, i dunno 01:40:15 *brain explodes* 01:40:15 mycroftiv: ok. so how easy is drawterm to set up? 01:40:34 ehird: well, let me give you the canonical 'how to' link for how to do it from the default install from the .iso, one second 01:41:04 ehird: http://www.plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Configuring_a_standalone_CPU_server/index.html 01:41:23 that is Ye Olde Testamente of how to take your default install and make it a standalone cpu auth server you can drawterm into 01:41:23 i love how they call it a wiki, it's been read only for like 8945349534 years 01:41:36 anyway looks irritatingly complicated. 01:41:37 its not read only as a matter of fact 01:41:46 and yes, that is exactly why i made the tools i did, because its ridiculous 01:41:47 mycroftiv: i mounted it and couldn't save. 01:41:57 really? hmm... 01:42:02 this was a few months ago 01:42:42 -!- Zonbi has joined. 01:42:55 -!- Zonbi has left (?). 01:43:09 impatient man 01:44:27 mycroftiv: so, any particular recommendation or should i just set up qemu 01:45:05 well, im hesitant to make any os x recommendations, honestly - i get the sense from reading 9fans that os x is a bit different in what the optimal strategies are 01:45:18 it's an odd OS 01:45:45 ive found that qemu seems to be most generally reliable plan9 virtualization platform for the oses ive worked with it in, which is various gnu/linux distros, windows xp and vista, and freebsd 01:46:19 how big do you recommend i make the disk? 01:46:24 if you are going to use qemu, you could try the standalone version of the preinstalled image i distribute btw 01:46:33 what does that get me over the stock? 01:46:43 drawterm out of the box, additional configuration work done 01:46:49 sounds nice 01:46:54 anything to emulate a middle mouse button? :P 01:47:04 anyway link me up 01:47:14 um, doesnt plan9 have something to do that anyway? some key combo or something?i should know this 01:47:22 dunno 01:47:23 http://sphericalharmony.com/plan9/ventigridserver.qcow2.img.tgz 01:47:29 isn't qcow compressed? 01:47:42 that is a .tgz of a single file which is a qcow2 preinstalled hdd image 01:47:56 a tar of a single file? 01:47:57 is the meaning of that question "why bother to .tgz it?" 01:47:57 are you nuts 01:48:09 ehird: no, im not nuts at all! :) want the method for the madness? 01:48:13 also, no, it's just "isn't qcow = compressed = slow?" 01:48:16 and sure i guess 01:48:32 no, the way qemu handles qcow2 is pretty efficient 01:48:34 Qcow is copy on write, not compressed. 01:48:46 ah. 01:48:51 And a few other silly things to maximise sparseness. 01:48:52 Q.app tells me it's compressed 01:48:52 ok, its very simply this - most people want/need to preserve the archival initial copy of the VM 01:48:54 so it sucks :P 01:49:13 if you provide a .tgz, the standard command line tar xzf foo.tgz leaves the original .tgz behind unchanged 01:49:30 mycroftiv: don't plan 9 guys oppose hacks 01:49:48 this is very convenient and useful, in comparison to a .gz where the ungzip will annihilate the original, and then youll fuck up your vm since you dont understand plan9 and have to redownload... 01:49:51 mycroftiv: btw does this image use venti 01:49:58 ehird: no, not in that standalone version 01:50:02 god 01:50:03 good 01:51:20 the file is badly named, its called 'ventigridserver' because its actually the version of the image that can be used to *host* a venti for other nodes to use 01:51:31 should it be .qcow2.img or just .qcow2 01:51:32 but it doesnt do that by default, or use venti itself as its backing store 01:51:44 iirc stuff is .qcow2.img 01:52:31 how much ram should i allocate? I have 2.5gb 01:52:42 for drawterm you also need to deal with the port redirections needed to access the vm, im not sure of the details of that in os x - 256mb for the vm is plenty of ram, plenty 01:52:53 also, do I really need to redirect ports for localhost? 01:53:06 finally, will anything break if I boot this with graphics? 01:53:18 the vm has to be able to listen on those ports even for localhost - and no, you can boot the image fine as standard graphical vm 01:53:36 it includes the standard initial terminal/glenda setup from bell labs as an option 01:53:48 but no gui? 01:53:56 in plan9 terminal is GUI 01:53:58 rio started automatically for me when using the iso 01:53:59 difference of vocabulary 01:54:07 mycroftiv: acme won't run under the console 01:54:13 im saying its GUI( 01:54:14 ah 01:54:15 aieee 01:54:17 it chose for me 01:54:28 do i want glenda or gridna? 01:54:35 either 01:54:41 :< 01:54:48 eenie meenie miney mo 01:54:53 glenda 01:55:04 mycroftiv: btw, what's the done plan9 thing for users? 01:55:05 thats the base standard setup 01:55:10 whee, alggy indowing system 01:55:14 *laggy windowing 01:55:15 what do you mean? 01:55:20 as in, 01:55:32 when using plan 9 it was a pain to get a user running with the ability to administrate 01:55:50 no its not, i can tell you how 01:55:56 bootes is set up on that image though as the admin/root 01:56:05 you can add your own user to admin stuff easy though 01:56:29 shift+right = middle 01:56:59 ok, if I can get a user set up here and then drawterm that'd be ideal 01:57:04 btw, are we dragging #esoteric too far offtopic? if so i have a channel for my various plan9 projects on here called #plan9chan 01:57:31 dude, we haven't been on topic for years 01:57:45 admittedly this diversion is rather *extended*, but 01:57:47 Dude, we're more often off topic than on. 01:57:54 Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude 01:58:00 ehird: Actually, we've been on topic on occasion. 01:58:09 But. That's a rare occasion. 01:58:13 speaking of being off topic, does anyone here do K? 01:58:18 WHOA 01:58:21 an idler just spoke 01:58:24 what do we do whatdowedo 01:58:30 olegfink: oklopol does J 01:58:32 ... Oleg? 01:58:34 well, that should have happened someday 01:58:35 no 01:58:36 not that oleg 01:58:47 Okay. Not a demigod, then. 01:58:50 have to spend a few minutes on phone, brb 01:58:54 Fun fact: more than one person is named Oleg 01:58:59 yes, I'm in almost no way mr. Kiselev 01:59:00 olegfink: your new name is "inferior oleg" 01:59:43 again, if I've correctly identified the oleg you're talking about, I doubt he's likely to be found on irc 01:59:53 okmij.org 01:59:57 but yeah he doesn't irc. 02:00:38 so yeah! that's what makes me the /other/ one, right? 02:00:46 no, the inferior one 02:00:52 damn. 02:00:59 it's okay inferior oleg 02:01:02 you're just inferior. 02:01:18 see, I'm not arguing. 02:01:33 that's good. 02:01:40 arguing breeds rebellion. 02:02:42 after all, I only do saner stuff with ocaml... actually running ocamlrun on bare hardware was about as far as I got... *bursts in tears* 02:02:52 wow you did that? awesome. 02:03:46 anyway, back to k... there are many j programmers, but I just need some place to ask stupid k questions. 02:04:30 i don't really get why someone would use k over j 02:05:13 ehird, well, it used(s) das u-boot for the dirty init work, and worked more or less when run in the orienting the board in the right direction. 02:05:28 orienting the ... board? 02:05:39 (that was about ocamlrun) 02:06:02 i repeat my question 02:06:37 yeah, it was an arm9 thing with fpga, but I never got to actually use it, though the whole project was about playing with metaocaml 02:07:51 re k over j, why someone would use airbuses over sea liners? 02:08:29 When you should be using a interstellar spaceship instead. 02:08:35 olegfink: begging the question 02:09:09 j is an executable mathematical notation that is particularly efficient in number theory applications, k is just a cool general-purpose functional language 02:09:21 ermmmmmm 02:09:24 the languages are hugely similar 02:09:28 from what i've seen 02:11:05 i have very limited knowledge of j, but from what I know its set of primitives is much larger, the syntax is both more powerful and more complicated 02:12:43 j has more primitives?! 02:12:46 I don't know how many people use j as a general-purpose language, as they use the usual ocaml, haskell or c 02:12:47 its vocab fits on one page of 3 cols 02:13:03 Ah, C++: [](){}(); 02:13:10 iirc yes 02:13:26 pikhq: wat 02:13:27 eg things like +:, >: etc.? 02:13:35 olegfink: all of it 02:13:46 ehird: That's a noöp. 02:13:52 pikhq: oh C++ not C 02:14:00 Yeah. 02:14:51 well, K doesn't have them, it has about 50 primitives 02:15:10 http://jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/vocabul.htm seems to list slightly more. 02:15:48 eh 02:15:55 i'm sure k has more actual functions than 50 02:15:58 just maybe in libraries 02:15:59 i.e. 02:16:07 the typical k program isn't just going to be compositions of 50 funcs 02:16:30 aye, I'm not counting things like trigonometric functions (yes, K has no o.!) 02:17:33 k seems very much more secret and corporate 02:17:55 and indeed it is 02:18:05 not counting the fact that it is no longer marketed 02:18:17 uggggg 20 minutes of trying to explain the basics of networking to a teenage kid trying to freeload off his neighbor's wireless with a 10 year old laptop 02:18:40 mycroftiv: why bother? 02:18:55 ehird: i was trying to avoid it, its my gf's kid 02:19:14 heh 02:19:17 but hey, K has no trains! 02:19:19 and no forks. 02:19:27 the fact that i dont even use windows enough to know how to access the networking control panel doesnt help, either 02:19:27 olegfink: shit sux 02:19:27 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:19:37 it's just C with lisp semantics and apl syntax... 02:19:56 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 02:20:48 but I can't give an objective comparison as I've never written anything big enough in J 02:21:15 j doesn't do big programs 02:21:41 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:22:30 http://freetexthost.com/rvsaogqp2y ← woah man. 02:22:35 I'm taking that into account when using the term 'big'. I think my largest ever J program was 3 lines. 02:23:20 olegfink: heh :) 02:24:19 it was that big because I never quite got how to do simple file i/o in J the right way. 02:27:30 olegfink: 'j for c programmers' might help and is included in the docs 02:27:37 it has file io in the first example 02:30:23 iirc it didn't help me, but maybe I was just too sleepy when I was reading jfc 02:30:44 what I needed was basically read some numbers from a text file, output some numbers 02:30:53 e.g. acm icpc-style i/o 02:30:57 the first example has that 02:33:05 well, honestly, I don't remeber what my problem was, maybe it was about parsing the string for integers, but I remeber seeing that example (is http://jsoftware.com/help/jforc/continuing_to_write_in_j.htm#_Toc191734364 what you're talking about?). 02:33:49 nuh uh 02:34:06 http://jsoftware.com/help/jforc/a_first_look_at_j_programs.htm 02:36:12 seems the magic I haven't had mastered at that time was a proper ReadFile ;-) 02:37:12 olegfink: eh? 02:38:47 I recall some problems with CRLF confusing J or something... meh, I can't find my code. 02:39:06 why are you using crlf :P 02:39:40 * GregorR-L has CRLF on highlight. 02:39:43 Who's using CRLF? 02:39:43 EVIL 02:39:52 xD 02:39:56 why is it on highlight? 02:40:07 So that I can harass people who use CRLF 02:40:24 :D 02:40:24 CR+LF 02:40:25 We must rid ourselves of this vile plague. 02:40:26 CR, LF 02:40:29 iirc CRLF in J is a list of CR and LF 02:40:29 13 10 02:40:36 I was kidding, I don't actually have CRLF on highlight :P 02:40:40 GregorR-L: lawl 02:40:46 what about classic mac os and its CR 02:40:56 Makes me go ":/" 02:41:41 In quotes, no less. 02:41:41 tbh in 1983 it wouldn't have been as crazy 02:43:00 mycroftiv: i had something queued up to say but i forgot. 02:43:25 ehird: oh? 02:43:28 yeah 02:43:30 exciting eh 02:43:40 mycroftiv: incidentally does plan 9 have any text antialiasing mechanisms? 02:43:51 ehird: you can download some different subpixel hinted fonts if you want 02:44:00 it's... encoded in the font? 02:44:02 x_x 02:44:52 i honestly dont know the details, but i know if you want smoothed fonts, theres some stuff you can download - im oblivious to fonts having grown up on 40 column all caps displays and thinking that all modern displays post 2000 look fine 02:45:26 * ehird whacks mycroftiv with the typography/display nerd bat 02:45:31 It's a bat that you whack people with. 02:46:23 i do know that the plan9 fonts that many disdain are in fact also NONFREE for some bizarre reason and that one traditional annoyance of various things is that the fonts arent freely redistributable separate from plan 9 02:47:25 mycroftiv: Learn typography! 02:47:36 pikhq: Shut up, X11 user. 02:47:41 Also. What the crap? Bitmap fonts? 02:47:43 pikhq: i make plenty of typos! 02:47:48 ehird: I at least freely admit it's shitty. 02:47:48 If you really loved typography, you'd sacrifice every other value for it. 02:47:55 Well, freetype, not X11. 02:48:28 ehird: Idea: Display TeX. 02:48:29 :P 02:48:37 ehird: bitmap fonts don't need any antialiasing.. just get a higher resolution display. :-) 02:48:54 pikhq: TeX's actual font rendering isn't that good 02:49:01 olegfink: (a) that makes them incy wincy 02:49:11 (b) i'd spend $$$ for a 600dpi display, hells yeah 02:49:22 ehird: Yeah, but that's the only thing it doesn't do all that well. 02:49:28 pikhq: unicode 02:49:42 also, implementing smart quotes by making `` and '' freakin' ligatures 02:49:44 Oh, right. Straight TeX doesn't do that. 02:49:51 * pikhq hugs XeTeX. 02:49:52 I heard TeX doesn't really make coffee as well. 02:49:58 olegfink: tru dat 02:51:05 anyway, leaving for the weekend. thanks for the time. 02:51:13 Ĝis. 02:51:20 bye olegfink 03:00:28 bye 03:00:32 -!- ehird has quit. 03:14:16 -!- amca has joined. 03:42:04 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 03:48:28 -!- alexlyoko94 has joined. 03:48:42 -!- alexlyoko94 has left (?). 04:13:00 -!- xim_ has joined. 04:13:38 -!- xim_ has left (?). 04:14:59 -!- Sgeo[Circe] has joined. 04:16:52 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo_. 04:16:57 -!- Sgeo[Circe] has changed nick to Sgeo. 04:17:13 -!- Sgeo has changed nick to Sgeo[Circe]. 04:17:17 -!- Sgeo_ has changed nick to Sgeo. 04:51:07 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:51:07 Hello oerjan, and welcome to #esoteric 04:51:58 hello botty one 04:56:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has left (?). 04:56:59 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 04:56:59 Hello bsmntbombdood, and welcome to #esoteric 04:57:05 barf 05:03:06 It's a client with a very easy scripting API 05:03:22 And for that YOU DIE. 05:03:28 Probably the least powerful one ever conceived, but still 05:03:33 XD 05:03:59 The code for autogreet: http://pastie.org/576319 05:09:06 ..no comments? 05:09:28 Is it Turing-complete? 05:09:40 ..? 05:09:47 How does that apply to an API? 05:09:58 I think it a valid question at all times. 05:10:05 ALL TIMES. 05:11:09 Good night all 05:11:33 good turing-complete night 05:15:29 More off-topicness: I have been reading the comic "Sandman". 05:15:30 -!- Sgeo[Circe] has quit ("Circe: http://circe.nick125.com/"). 05:15:36 'Tis truly grand. 05:19:40 pikhq: Im curious: are you turing complete? 05:20:18 that is not a valid question 05:20:55 the "Is it" is essential. "are you" does not work. 05:22:07 Thank you for that, oerjan. 05:24:37 Sorry, you right. 05:24:51 pikhq: Is it turing complete? 05:25:02 Where "it" is pikhq 05:25:54 only in the same way as 1 is even, where 1 = 2 05:26:23 amca: For certain values of Turing. 05:26:35 lol 05:30:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later, in a non-computable way"). 05:34:48 -!- nescience has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:34:48 -!- Warrigal has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:34:48 -!- Robdgreat has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:34:48 -!- Dewio has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:34:49 -!- Warrigal_ has joined. 05:34:50 -!- Robdgreat has joined. 05:34:52 -!- Dewi has joined. 05:34:59 -!- nescience has joined. 05:37:21 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:50:09 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:50:13 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:00:18 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it"). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:33:04 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 08:39:50 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell"). 09:01:06 -!- coppro has joined. 09:10:25 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:13:21 -!- M0ny has quit (Client Quit). 09:13:35 -!- M0ny has joined. 09:15:26 hi 10:11:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:26:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:32:30 I'm looking for more cellular automaton to make into ties. There are only two good ECAs, but I can extend that to size-5 neighborhoods and then the range is almost endless. <-- ECAs? size-5 of what? 10:32:35 * AnMaster just woke up btw 10:53:54 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:55:29 -!- coppro has joined. 10:57:46 ECA ("elementary cellular automaton") is at least what Wolfram calls the "rule N" things. Which have a size-3 neighborhood, but you could easily imagine adding the next two neighbors too. 11:27:35 ah right 11:28:29 is the number of possible rules limited btw? 11:28:44 given the same size of neighborhood I mean 11:40:38 Uh, of course. There are only 256 of the elementary ones, for one thing. 11:44:58 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:48:36 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:19:27 -!- Pthing has joined. 13:04:01 fizzie: If you disregard trivial permutations of other rules, there are only 64 ECAs. 13:18:20 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 13:18:48 -!- morenel has joined. 13:18:49 hi 13:18:53 whats that language rhat uses indentation for program flow? 13:18:58 frightens the shit out of me 13:19:07 Python? 13:19:41 not brainfuck? 13:19:46 ah 13:19:47 yes pyton 13:34:03 python: widely considered the most terrifying language 13:35:08 Actually it's pretty swell 13:35:26 only if you don't stop to think 13:35:31 about the terrible secret of whitespace 13:35:35 and what is hiding in it 13:36:29 I am here to protect you from the terrible secret of whitespace 13:36:37 Whitespace has a terrible power 13:37:03 -!- SimonRC has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 13:45:36 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:56:08 -!- lament has joined. 14:00:41 -!- ehird has joined. 14:01:17 hah 14:01:23 21:03:59 The code for autogreet: http://pastie.org/576319 14:01:23 21:09:06 ..no comments? 14:01:23 but nobody carse 14:01:24 cares 14:01:25 whoa morenel 14:01:28 haven't seen you here before etc 14:01:34 ok hi 14:01:45 my logreading has not yet seen you 14:01:53 ? 14:01:56 ok 14:01:58 im new then? 14:03:09 i gathered :P 14:03:19 python frightens you? well me too but for less trivial reasons 14:03:24 -!- jix has joined. 14:03:32 yeah 14:07:52 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 14:07:53 ophidiophobia? 14:07:53 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 14:08:55 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:10:57 lament: what 14:11:00 *wat 14:13:16 ꊀ 14:22:19 lament: a U man with wavy arms and a penis? 14:22:37 wat 14:23:28 looks like it zoomed in 14:26:53 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:28:57 -!- SimonRC has joined. 14:54:09 lament: well? 14:57:01 wat 15:05:01 [14:13] lament: ꊀ 15:05:05 oh is the letter called wat or something 15:05:43 wat 15:05:53 14:13? 15:06:04 you live in the past, man 15:06:23 'YI SYLLABLE WAT' (U+A280) 15:06:31 lament: i know 15:06:33 the pasty paste 15:06:35 with pasta 15:06:36 past 15:24:05 Best source code ever... [ASCIIPIC?] http://www0.us.ioccc.org/2001/williams.c 15:24:08 WOW YOU CAN ADD WHITESPACE 15:24:11 :OOOOO 15:25:53 Slow-ass US mirrors... http://www.de.ioccc.org/2001/williams.c 15:27:36 who cares, it's a boring entry 15:28:01 It's cute but simple ASCII art 15:29:05 yes, but shit like that can be automated for chrissake 15:29:46 Hence "simple" 15:29:57 i'm not dissing it 15:30:02 but it's at the top of proggit 15:30:22 Yep 15:31:53 which sux :P 15:32:26 There's been worse stuff at the top of proggit 15:33:59 meh 15:56:34 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:10:39 ehird: There's much better IOCCC entries. 16:10:43 yep 16:10:51 btw let's start using there're 16:10:52 Why not the bit of code that calculates Pi based on its own area? 16:10:54 instead of there's → there are 16:11:29 Or the bootstrapping subset-of-C compiler? 16:25:03 no fabrice bellard allowed 16:25:04 he 16:25:06 's just too clever 16:25:28 there're a problem with that idea 16:25:32 what 16:26:00 don't swear. 16:26:22 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 16:26:37 lament: umm care to clarify are you just on crack 16:26:40 *or are 16:27:47 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:29:07 -!- upyr[emacs] has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:36:15 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:38:36 whats that language rhat uses indentation for program flow? 16:38:42 haskell too 16:38:53 if by "flow" you mean "structure" 16:39:21 so basically 16:39:27 every good language there is! 16:39:35 :D 16:39:37 lament: Not quite. 16:39:43 ... There exists F#. 16:40:11 * oerjan now accuses pikhq of being John D. Harrop 16:40:56 not very probable, i know, he wouldn't be able to mention F# that rarely in this channel 16:41:11 Hahah. 16:41:22 And he wouldn't be derogatory concerning the language. 16:41:32 wait, that was derogatory? 16:41:34 does Whitespace count? 16:41:59 oerjan: "Every good language there is!" "Not quite. There exists F#." 16:42:13 oerjan: I'm at least under the impression that F# has indentation-significant syntax. 16:42:16 pikhq: ok so F# _is_ indentation sensitive, but not good? i don't know it, so i interpreted it the other possible way 16:42:51 Asztal: probably 16:42:54 oerjan: It's a .Net "functional" programming language. 16:43:03 Uhh, pikhq. pikhq. 16:43:10 F# = OCaml for .NET. 16:43:18 It isn't indentation-significant. 16:43:25 oh i didn't mean "don't know" in the never heard about it sense. i just haven't seen the syntax. 16:43:27 ehird: Okay, then. 16:43:27 Harrop is a retard, but stop the FUD :P 16:43:42 F# is still an awful language, though. 16:43:52 Really, now? 16:43:59 It's just OCaml with access to .NET stuff. 16:44:09 Nothing spectacular, but I find it hard to hate. 16:44:13 "You got .Net in my functional language!" "You got your functional language in my .Net!" "YAY!" 16:44:24 ehird: I find the concept distasteful. ;) 16:44:24 it's a chimera, i guess. since ocaml already sort of is. 16:44:33 pikhq: OCaml is object-oriented already. 16:44:33 and it adds .NET to that 16:44:39 Binding .NET does not muddy the language at all. 16:45:00 ehird: My complaints are two-fold: OCaml, and .NET. 16:45:06 ehird: i doubt the type systems are compatible. 16:45:11 You just hate every language that isn't Haskell. 16:45:21 Not *every* language! 16:45:31 ... There's something to be said for the untyped lambda calculus. 16:45:34 have you ever actually used OCaml 16:45:35 :P 16:45:36 i hate every language that is or isn't Haskell 16:45:45 No, I'm just being silly on IRC. 16:46:02 i recall reading that F# does type inference somewhat unintuitively for classes 16:46:43 (since hindley-milner does not go well with subtyping) 16:47:03 Subtyping is nice. 16:47:13 I want subtyping a lot when Haskelling. 16:52:37 AnMaster: lambert is being very sensible today 17:14:15 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:27:37 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:35:45 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:37:04 Sooooooooo 17:37:10 s/ $// 17:39:40 oh wo 17:39:40 w 17:39:41 ^ul (S)::^(~:(o)~^~:^):^ 17:39:41 Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ...too much output! 17:39:44 i think i dreamed something 17:39:48 then forgot it was a dream later 17:39:48 :D 17:42:39 i think i do that a lot 17:44:50 yes, you are already forgetting that this is a dream 17:44:58 wow, trippy 17:59:42 -!- pikhq has joined. 18:08:19 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 18:09:20 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:09:25 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 18:09:42 * pikhq is now on ext4. 18:24:47 "I am an atheist who wants to become religious again. Ask me anything." // grr @ people who don't make a distinction between dogmatic atheism and rationalism 18:24:48 ahem 18:24:49 anyway 18:24:50 pikhq: awesome 18:24:59 you're running ext3 except with extents! 18:25:05 wait no 18:25:11 you're running ext2 except with journaling and extents 18:25:59 ehird: And btrees. 18:26:06 tru dat 18:45:24 -!- ehird has set topic: This haughty infidel says a cross revealed "O, never you must stray to a roaring tessellation saying 'What is this... holy ass! THISACRONYMSTARTSWITHAT!'" | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 19:00:02 -!- JoelyWoely has joined. 19:00:37 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Nick collision from services.). 19:00:44 -!- JoelyWoely has changed nick to CESSMASTER. 19:06:29 ehird: i love you. 19:06:43 why thank you augur 19:07:24 thae topic is brilliant 19:08:37 thanks, i wrote that in february i think :P 19:09:17 despite being nearly unable to type due to the biting cold 19:09:27 wat 19:09:39 angkor 19:09:58 oejan: you stole that from me :| 19:10:08 stole what? 19:10:15 saying angkor in response to wat 19:10:32 angkor in response to wat 19:10:33 SUE ME 19:10:34 it's pretty obvious 19:10:40 well thats what i thought 19:10:43 but noone fucking gets it 19:10:47 i actually guessed oerjan would do it this time :) 19:10:51 augur: i had to google it first time. 19:10:58 sometimes i say thom 19:11:13 because angkor thom is both more obscure and more interestng than angkor wat 19:11:30 and that just confuses people. :D 19:11:48 SOMETIMES i say "soup" and people are like "huh?" 19:11:53 so i clarify with "wat soup" 19:11:57 and they're still confused 19:12:05 Fun fact: the OS X system sound "Sosumi" (so sue me) was a reference to Apple Corps v. Apple Computer; it's a xylophone, so technically that counts as distributing music (tenuously) 19:12:15 (Proof from Infallopedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sosumi) 19:12:19 so i explain that its a kind of soup form around angkor wat in cambodia, used to greet people 19:12:42 what, really? 19:12:59 Phallopedia 19:13:35 augur: no such thing, says google 19:13:44 no such thing as what 19:13:53 phallopedia 19:14:14 lol 19:14:15 Infallopedia 19:14:18 Phallopedia 19:14:21 let's make Phalluspedia 19:14:35 hehehe 19:14:35 an encyclopedia about cocks 19:14:35 Phallus 19:14:35 ...and roosters 19:14:41 * oerjan swats ehird for mangling greek morphology 19:14:47 er wait 19:14:55 * oerjan forgot the swatter -----### 19:14:56 * augur's phallus swats oerjan for etc 19:14:59 xD 19:15:01 zen swatter 19:15:21 .. 19:15:38 zwatter 19:15:47 .... I'm so edgy because I use the wrong number of dots 19:16:23 zwitter 19:17:04 zwikipedia 19:17:14 zwicky 19:17:42 The problem with Twitter, I think/is that though anecdotal evidence/is common as a sink/there is a lack of prudence/and I consider it rude s 19:17:46 ense/to cut off a poem on the brink. 19:17:52 ↑ WORST POEM EVER 19:18:23 Also weird rhyming scheme; ABAsortofBBA 19:18:52 !haskell length "The problem with Twitter, I think/is that though anecdotal evidence/is common as a sink/there is a lack of prudence/and I consider it rude sense/to cut off a poem on the brink." 19:18:53 176 19:19:10 !haskell length "The problem with Twitter, I think/is that though anecdotal evidence/is common as a sink/there is a lack of prudence/and I consider it rude s" 19:19:11 140 19:19:25 Bitch. That was the joke. 19:19:25 i was gonna check that 19:19:29 :P 19:19:33 http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Michael-Jackson-Staples-Center/photo//090807/482/014ee302e9be4f0a89a4eeca91a2e595//s:/ap/20090808/ap_en_ot/us_michael_jackson_insurance;_ylt=AgTPYYGRfmU9P0ms7L75FsZY24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5dmZwOWFyBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl9yX3RvcF9waG90bwRzbGsDaW50aGlzaGFuZG91 << look at me i'm michael jackson and i rehearse in CG environments that are photoshopped poorly! 19:20:23 is that his lips 19:21:50 some day photoshopping will get so good that no one manages to detect it, at least officially. unofficially mental hospitals start filling up with CG experts who claim they can detect photoshopping artifacts in reality. 19:22:03 :D 19:23:13 oerjan have i told you my reasoning for why the world might be a simulation? x3 19:23:59 possibly not 19:24:20 WELL 19:24:57 succinct reasoning. 19:25:08 long story short, 3, maybe 4 of the features of the universe's fundamental design are the sort of thing you'd add to a large scale universe simulation to make it easier to computer 19:25:10 compute* 19:26:14 augur 19:26:16 stfu 19:26:18 :D 19:26:21 the simulation argument is wrong. 19:26:33 it probably is, but even so its fun 19:27:31 um 19:27:40 what are these three maybe four features 19:28:02 augur being able to spout bullshit 19:28:06 and people taking the simulation argument seriously 19:28:12 that is a really good feature 19:28:12 support the factory union 19:28:12 thus distracting them from actually thinking and looking 19:28:21 which would cause them to find all the flaws in the approximations 19:28:25 those are two. 19:28:51 pthing: non-simultaneity, a maximum speed on motion, and probabilistic particle location 19:29:22 augur that adds up to five 19:29:24 can't you count 19:29:28 you just had to add one or two more. 19:29:33 D: 19:29:41 actually i think he's saying I'm the fourth fundamental feature of the universe 19:29:47 and he used a colon instead of a comma 19:29:48 pretty much 19:29:51 xD 19:30:08 another argument against the simulation argument: why the heck would you want to simulate this universe? 19:30:17 also "simulating what?" 19:30:19 stealth terrorists from uranus 19:30:23 the answer appears to be 19:30:26 a newtonian universe 19:30:29 which is adorable 19:30:31 they haven't intervened, they've just run one presumably not entirely unlike their own (they couldn't imagine simulating something too different from their universe; almost certainly) 19:30:33 so 19:30:35 what the fuck is the point 19:30:36 pthing: what do you mean? 19:30:41 those are two. 19:30:41 pthing: non-simultaneity, a maximum speed on motion, and probabilistic particle location 19:30:50 relativity demolished the first two, quantum the second 19:30:58 what? 19:31:00 BUT THAT LEAVES THE THIRD 19:31:01 :P 19:31:01 if you remove these "easier to compute" features 19:31:05 what do you mean "demolished"? 19:31:16 you are left with a 19th century cosmos 19:31:30 i dont follow what you're saying, pthing 19:31:34 this universe would be way way way easier to simulate if we did one thing 19:31:35 which is the more-real-than-real universe that the real universe is just a computational simulation of 19:31:37 ELIMINATE QUANTUM MECAHNICS 19:31:39 *mechanics 19:31:53 ehird, no apparently it is a simplification? 19:31:58 ehird, i dont think it would 19:32:01 classical mechanics gets like 99.999999999% of shit right, and fuck the rest 19:32:12 because then you'd have to actually calculate all particle motion and so forth 19:32:12 augur, it's easy 19:32:13 we would just try experiments and conclude yep that classical shit is the bomb 19:32:31 you point to those as features that are put in to make the universe easier to compute 19:32:32 its far easier to just leave particle positions as probabilistic things that dont have to be calculated all the time 19:32:41 dude augur 19:32:41 pthing: yes, i do. 19:32:44 now if they're put in 19:32:45 do you know anything about QM 19:32:48 that means in the hyper-real universe 19:32:49 no way that shit simplifies vs classical 19:32:52 they're not there, right? 19:33:04 oh snap 19:33:06 ehird: i think it does! 19:33:16 augur: because you're not a physicist, you're a linguist on crack 19:33:17 pthing: who knows. the hyper-real might not even be like our universe at all! 19:33:23 I HATE YOU 19:33:27 you're stupid. 19:33:28 ehird: actually i was a physics major before i was a linguistics major 19:33:36 i can see why you switched 19:33:39 augur, well whatever, *a* hyper-real universe that our universe is simulating, right? 19:33:51 Pthing: whoa you mixed that up there 19:33:55 that sentence is freaky shit. 19:34:06 dont worry little one these ideas are VERY HARD 19:34:14 if the simulation hypothesis is correct, sure! 19:34:18 real scienticians are afraid of them 19:34:19 so! 19:34:27 Pthing: dude dude you said that our universe is simulating our simulator 19:34:28 the hyper-real universe is, in fact, Newtonian 19:34:29 that must have been a typo :P 19:34:36 maybe! 19:34:41 ehird: no no 19:34:44 so this whole idea 19:34:46 he's just a Scheme fan 19:34:58 METACIRCULAR UNIVERSE 19:35:05 is just the same thing as people who thought quantum mechanics and relativity were funny tricks 19:35:12 and Newton got it all right via unaided reason 19:35:37 pthing, iiii dont think so. you're assuming that the "hyperreal universe" is newtonian, when it could very well be completely different and non-newtonian 19:35:43 augur 19:35:44 how! 19:35:48 stop right there for one second augur 19:35:53 The hyper-real universe is like our universe 19:35:54 i think its a mistake to assume that the only two options are newtonian and relativoquantumic 19:35:55 i want you to do some thinking for me 19:35:57 minus these computational aids 19:35:59 augur 19:36:00 augur 19:36:02 shut up Pthing 19:36:03 shut up augur 19:36:06 but why would you assume that it's like our universe at all? :o 19:36:11 SHUT UP 19:36:13 ehird: im listening, talk. jesus. 19:36:16 well because that is by definition 19:36:26 I'm not saying our universe is simulating the hyperpeople's universe 19:36:28 augur: give me the mechanics of a universe that are consistent, result in complex patterns, and are relatively stable 19:36:30 just *a* hyperuniverse 19:36:36 and make them totally unlike anything we've ever dreamt of 19:36:37 GO 19:36:50 irrelevant. 19:36:57 and *the particular* hyperuniverse our computer is simulating appears to be our universe - computational flaws 19:36:58 OR 19:37:00 congratulations, YOU LOSE 19:37:00 newtonian! 19:37:17 ehird: congratulations, i dont 19:37:22 yes 19:37:23 yes you do 19:37:26 pthing: i dont get what you're saying 19:37:34 you lost in fact as soon as you said "the simulation argument" 19:37:34 what don't you get 19:37:43 what universe you're talking about, for one 19:37:49 ehird: you said it first :D 19:38:18 i am talking about the universe that the hyperpeople want to learn things about to which our universe is a computational simulation 19:38:29 augur stop embarrassing yourself 19:38:47 er 19:38:49 oh, i see 19:39:03 hyperpurple people eaters 19:39:08 pthing, no no when i said its a simulation i just mean simulated, not a simulation of /something/ 19:39:13 nonsense, hyperpeople just make huge simulation projects of wildly different universes that still requires oodles of computation FOR FUN! 19:39:19 oh, but that's implicit! 19:39:25 You don't just have A Simulation 19:39:26 we're three year old bobby's first universe 19:39:27 in the same way that like, The Sims is a simulation, but its not really a simulation of our universe 19:39:31 sure it is 19:39:33 i eman, i guess in some sense it is 19:39:33 but 19:39:44 it's a simulation of a particularly human-sized suburban american part of it 19:39:47 whereas! 19:39:52 not all simulations are simulations of preexisting things! 19:39:56 name one! 19:40:11 Myst! 19:40:17 which was a particularly fun game, btw. 19:40:17 um, that's a puzzle game 19:40:19 not 19:40:19 a 19:40:22 simulation 19:40:24 its a simulated environment! 19:40:26 ... 19:40:27 no 19:40:29 wow you lose augur 19:40:30 shut up augur 19:40:32 you massively lose. 19:40:50 jesus christ. 19:41:06 pthing 19:41:12 watch me not shut up 19:41:22 you know why i wont shut up? because your opinion is irrelevant 19:41:22 actually he can make you shut up. 19:41:23 just say it 19:41:25 cool feature of irc clients. 19:41:28 how does that make you feel? 19:41:33 knowing that you're irrelevant? 19:41:37 "I think the universe is a simulation by some hyperpeople of a newtonian universe" 19:41:49 i dont, actually 19:41:54 "slobber slobber sir isaac newton slobber slobber" 19:42:02 Newton baby <3 19:42:11 pthing you're so silly 19:42:18 wow convincing 19:42:21 i believe you now augur 19:42:24 i will have it etched in stone 19:42:26 believe what? 19:42:30 "opposers you're so silly" 19:42:39 — augur, founder of the hyperpeoplenewtonianquantumosimulatron theory 19:42:44 praise be 19:42:49 pthing isnt even opposing anything 19:42:58 he isn't? 19:43:00 this opossum is ur-elephant 19:43:22 ehird: well, seeing as how im not saying the universe is a simulation, no 19:43:30 umm 19:43:33 then what the fuck ARE you saying 19:43:34 UMM 19:43:42 maybe you should read, ehird 19:43:53 Pthing: isn't that what he said? 19:43:57 because i'm fairly sure 19:43:57 i have been reading 19:43:58 and i admit 19:43:59 that's what he fucking said. 19:44:01 i said like half an hour ago that the universe isnt a simulation. 19:44:05 no 19:44:06 no you did not 19:44:07 yes 19:44:08 I do not know what you *are* saying 19:44:08 i did 19:44:21 apart from your points aren't very good 19:44:28 here look, ehird 19:44:28 augur: if you can't communicate with someone of any intelligence, that's your problem 19:44:31 not the listener's 19:44:39 the simulation argument is wrong. 19:44:39 it probably is, but even so its fun 19:44:39 come back when you can state in a sentence WHAT YOU ARE SAYING 19:44:46 WHATS THAT? ME AGREEING WITH YOU EHIRD? 19:44:49 generally for the purpose of argument, 19:44:51 OMG 19:44:53 we assume you believe what you're arguing for 19:45:04 not 19:45:06 really 19:45:11 for instance, "Devil's advocate: Nazis rock" "No they don't, Nazis don't rock, you're stupid" "I NEVER SAID NAZIS ROCK" 19:45:20 uh 19:45:24 "...that's what you're arguing for." 19:45:32 "No it's not, I said half an hour ago that nazis don't rock" 19:45:35 that's not really ti 19:45:36 at all 19:45:38 ehird shut up 19:45:47 i'm proud to have never made a good analogy in my life. 19:46:19 KNEEWAYS 19:46:31 ↑a 19:46:32 pthing, stop telling people to shut up. 19:46:37 no 19:47:03 hey i just realized, both pthing and ehird are in england 19:47:03 :o 19:47:09 and theyre both homosexuals! 19:47:11 um 19:47:21 well, ok, ehird is 13, not a homosexual 19:47:23 yeah I'm actually Pthing. 19:47:25 but 19:47:25 um 19:47:35 Pthing is gay because, pee thing, you see 19:47:37 it refers to a penis. 19:47:38 um 19:47:42 mu 19:47:56 pthing, its "om". your mantra sucks. 19:48:05 get with the program, gosh 19:48:06 it's the skeptic's mantra 19:48:10 oic 19:48:13 carry on then! 19:48:25 HOLY FUCK 360 DEGREE HOLOGRAPHIC DISPLAY 19:48:25 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2VusJwGTQQ 19:49:25 its still got a spinning component tho :( 19:49:48 eh? 19:49:50 what do you mean 19:49:52 also who cares 19:49:55 its got a spinning mirror 19:50:01 so what 19:50:04 well 19:50:07 it must spin fast enough to work 19:50:13 if you get your head chopped off, your own fucking fault 19:50:18 we've had spinning-surface "holograms" for ages 19:50:22 like 20 years or something 19:50:48 who fucking cares, it looks awesome 19:50:52 well yes 19:50:52 but 19:50:59 its been looking awesome for 20 years or something! 19:51:13 add some tactile gloves to that and you've got the most awesome "futuristic" computer ever 19:51:30 sure, one that you cant actually touch because your hand will get fucked up 19:51:34 but sure 19:51:39 err why 19:51:46 the mirrors aren't actually in the hologram are they 19:51:51 yes they are 19:51:54 oh 19:51:54 fuck that 19:51:57 the hologram reflects off the mirror 19:52:05 i thought it was like 19:52:08 you need a circular chamber 19:52:11 and the mirror spins around the edges 19:52:15 no 19:52:15 projecting it into the middle 19:52:24 but that is an interesting idea 19:52:37 have to spin really fast though 19:52:46 and that'd be uber noisy 19:52:56 but, it should work 19:53:03 itd be difficult to achieve, i think 19:53:09 and itd be pretty big 19:53:22 hmm 19:53:28 wouldn't a mirror spinning really fast be equivalent to uh 19:53:30 one big mirror 19:53:32 and youd have to look down at it 19:53:47 augur: not if you put them in the (transparnet) ceiling and floor 19:53:49 *transparent 19:53:51 the mirror spins around its center, so that its pointing at different places throughout its spin 19:53:54 as well as the walls 19:53:56 then voila! 3d. 19:54:02 ah, so a big room then 19:54:07 that would be veeerry tricky 19:54:26 augur: just move the mirrors with magic 19:54:29 magic can do it fast enough! 19:54:30 :o 19:54:41 but can it hold the mirror glass together, thats the question! 19:54:57 :D 19:55:14 theres a planetarium-like thing at some university thats intended for something like that 19:55:17 there was a TED talk about it 19:55:26 it doesnt use holography 19:55:35 but at the scale and distance used, it doesnt matter much 19:55:37 but anyway, that + big circular room + antigravity + tactile glove thingies + huge fucking earmuffs to block out all the awful noise from the spinning and levitation = BEST INTERFACE EVER 19:56:11 sounds like the gunnery interface in that one Babylon 5 movie 19:57:04 alas it is not easy to maneuver in the kind of antigravity that doesn't involve a very fast plane 19:57:17 or indeed that kind too; if you could just sort of speed up movements it'd be fine 19:57:19 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEP#Results 19:57:20 HAHAHA 19:57:22 oh man 19:57:24 thats hilarious 19:57:59 DAMN TIDES 19:58:01 DAMN LAKES 19:58:02 DAMN TRAINS 19:58:06 just do it in space 19:58:07 at 0k 19:58:07 RUININ MAH SPERMENTS 19:58:10 *K 19:58:14 no interference at all! 19:58:27 yeah but then the alien space ships will fuck it up! 19:58:28 augur : I remember that story 19:58:39 slereah_, you work in the cern area right? 19:58:46 My quantum physics teacher told us 19:58:48 Nah 19:58:48 or do you just contract out to nantes? 19:58:51 Not even close 19:59:05 Although he just told us about the train, though 19:59:44 it'll probably be simpler to make good VR than to do the awesome interface :P 19:59:54 ehird: probably. 20:00:02 have you seen Lawnmower Man? 20:00:35 Is it about the retard who gains superpowers? 20:00:36 i think i saw it when i was a kiddie 20:00:43 slereah: not quite 20:00:45 Slereah_: if i'm thinking about the same movie, yes 20:00:50 well not superpowers but 20:00:53 retarded kid used in experiments with VR to boost intelligence 20:01:06 no no no don't call them experiments with vr 20:01:07 Come on, he makes a lawnmower in some dude's mind! 20:01:08 in the sequel he ends up creating a massive virtual world where people can upload their minds 20:01:10 what it was is flashing images 20:01:14 That's not super intelligence 20:01:15 and patterns 20:01:20 and that made him clever 20:01:21 somehow 20:01:22 That's mind warping 20:01:26 by playing a video game 20:01:42 the game they played was a lot like the pre-release version of Wipeout, oddly 20:01:50 which looks pretty interesting 20:01:52 Heheh, wipe 20:01:53 wipeout is a good game 20:02:06 ehird, if youve never seen the pre-release version, check out the Hackers movie 20:02:07 erm i dunno if i played wipeout 20:02:09 i dunno 20:02:14 augur: no i'm never watching that movie 20:02:16 I don't know what wipeout is 20:02:24 the game they play on the big tv is the prerelased wipeout 20:02:26 aww ehird why not? 20:02:30 its fun! 20:03:39 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal"). 20:03:46 ehirds worried that hes going to start thinking that hacking involves lots of pretty pictures on old mac laptops 20:03:50 D: 20:03:55 xD 20:04:19 when everyone knows that it involves lots of pretty pictures on new ubuntu+compiz fusion laptops! 20:04:50 they don't call them laptops any more augur 20:04:54 oh sorry 20:04:56 notebooks 20:04:58 portables 20:04:59 alas the lap is now obsolete as NOTEBOOKS are 20:05:03 the enemies 20:05:05 of your sperm. 20:05:09 D: 20:05:09 Spermemies. 20:05:14 i hate my sperm anyway. 20:05:17 damn sperm 20:05:36 you can tell they actually like to be on your lap because they get all hot 20:05:36 REPUBLICAN RETARDS THINK THAT OBAMA IS PROPOSING MAKING SOYLENT GREEN REALITY. D': 20:05:48 pikhq: Sounds like a modest proposal to me. 20:06:07 ehird: Quite. 20:06:31 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR2Jh2i7JgY Wow. 20:06:33 (Not parody.) 20:08:20 americans are stupid 20:08:24 this is a general fact 20:08:36 You're such a bitch, bitch. 20:08:39 republicans as much as democrats 20:08:49 ehird: but i'm your bitch li 20:08:50 ;o 20:08:58 Bitch li? 20:09:05 typo, nigga 20:09:13 li is one character left of ;o 20:09:32 augur: I'm neither. The Democrats are too right for my tastes. 20:09:41 im neither too 20:09:58 but only because i favor the destruction of the whole political system as it currently exists. :D 20:10:04 mycroftiv, there? I have a plan9 installer question: How do I get it to use Swedish keyboard layout. I forgot since last time I did a plan9 in qemu 20:10:50 Not in the installer you don't, afaik. 20:10:54 Install it first. 20:11:00 pretty sure it was possible 20:11:04 guys: $100/£50 for the first person who can figure out what this translaiton SHOULD have looked like: 20:11:05 آڈولف میركلے KFC died of her father when took his family business توجدید on the lines while it too much development soon . 20:11:11 ehird, also where is / on US layout? And + 20:11:19 augur: I like to fuck goats 20:11:24 ehird: close! 20:11:26 AnMaster: / is after . 20:11:35 qwertyuiop[] (either enter or \) 20:11:37 it is infact supposed to have been "When Adolf Merckle took charge of his family's business after the death of his father, he greatly improved the business very quickly through a process of modernization." 20:11:42 asdfghjkl;' 20:11:46 maybe \ here 20:11:49 hm 20:11:50 zxcvbnm,./ 20:11:51 kay 20:11:55 top row shifted: 20:11:57 and + ? 20:12:00 !@#$%^&*()_+ 20:12:05 unshifted 20:12:10 1234567890-= 20:13:17 kay 20:13:26 Also, don't do venti. 20:13:33 Just use fossil. 20:13:44 Unless you have a RAID with a buncha disks. 20:14:06 i'll raid your disks alright 20:14:20 I want to try venti that is why I'm doing this :P 20:14:29 AnMaster: Well, that's stupid. 20:14:34 ehird, ? 20:14:52 Because you don't have a lot of disk, and venti/fossil isn't exactly the most compact storage mechanism. 20:15:11 15 GB disk image. True not that much 20:15:13 fossils are too thinly spread out 20:15:23 oerjan, hi 20:15:40 'lo 20:15:55 fuck the screen dimming thingy in ubuntu btw. it doesn't work well 20:16:07 Hmm, I don't actually have a spare x86/BIOS box anywhere 20:17:24 btw. it plan9 cd doesn't even boot under virtualbox 20:18:15 or rather, with the ICH6 IDE controller (not the default one) it does boot (very slowly) but then freezes when it tries to start the GUI 20:18:26 sata bith 20:18:28 bitch 20:18:34 AnMaster: also use his 9grid image 20:18:39 ehird, tried sata too. didn't work well 20:18:39 instead of the install iso 20:18:44 that's what he told me to do at least 20:18:49 ehird, what was the url now again 20:18:54 also it was qemu one 20:19:10 http://sphericalharmony.com/plan9/gridtoolsplus.tgz 20:19:16 http://sphericalharmony.com/plan9/ventigridserver.qcow2.img.tgz is just the image 20:19:39 and qemu can't make use of the cool VT-x thingy 20:19:48 kqemu 20:20:02 AnMaster: Sure it can. 20:20:20 Just need to have kvm in your kernel. 20:20:22 ehird, yes but that doesn't use hardware virtualization iirc? Only does some stuff in kernel to speed it up. Since kqemu works on my old sempron too 20:20:30 pikhq, hm 20:20:37 your sempron has hardware virtualisation 20:20:46 anyway 20:20:46 ehird: That's not what kqemu does. 20:20:48 ehird, no it doesn't 20:20:50 plan 9 is very frugal with resources 20:20:51 pikhq: i know 20:20:59 so vt-x is totally unneeded 20:21:06 And no, Semprons don't have it. 20:21:10 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush mmx fxsr sse sse2 syscall nx mmxext fxsr_opt lm 3dnowext 3dnow rep_good pni lahf_lm 20:21:10 k 20:21:16 kvm only works if you have a processor that supports it :( 20:21:36 * AnMaster looks around in qemu-launcher for a KVM option 20:21:40 AnMaster: Fabrice Bellard also wrote a Linux kernel module (with preliminary ports to FreeBSD and MS Windows) named KQEMU or QEMU Accelerator, which notably speeds up x86 emulation on x86 platforms. This is accomplished by running user mode code directly on the host computer's CPU, and using processor and peripheral emulation only for kernel mode and real mode code 20:21:42 close enough. 20:22:08 ehird, yes, but that isn't VT-x :P which was my point 20:22:41 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 20:22:42 kqemu can accelerate kernel mode code, too 20:22:53 coppro: It's a hack. 20:22:53 I wonder if having virtualbox and kvm running at the same time will cause issues 20:22:59 :D 20:23:08 don't see why 20:23:22 Polarisation 20:23:28 I'm typing vertically 20:23:32 install is sure slow 20:23:34 wonder why 20:23:34 It is uncomfortable 20:23:41 AnMaster: takes like 30m. 20:23:44 maybe no DMA? though I said yes when it asked if I wanted to use DMA 20:24:04 30m isn't bad. 20:24:13 ehird, about 15 minutes passed of the "installing file system" phase. And it is at 15% 20:24:22 I don't think that will add up to 30 minutes 20:24:40 have you ever used windows' file copy dialog AnMaster 20:25:36 ehird, yes. right. but a) this shows ETA in percent, not minutes b) the percent seems to be going at a steady rate, and has all the time 20:26:27 * AnMaster wishes for a larger desktop 20:26:31 desk* 20:26:35 as in.... 20:27:02 i'm trying to imagine a desk too small to fit a notebook. 20:27:10 I can't fit the throttle/joystick on there when the laptop is also on it 20:27:18 that is, throttle/joystick connected to desktop 20:27:28 and keyboard/mouse for desktop there too 20:27:29 you'll have to ask augur about joysticks 20:27:33 can't advise there 20:28:07 as in: full size keyboard, mouse, large joystick, large throttle, laptop 20:28:12 just out of space then 20:28:24 i already told you that i can't advise about joysticks. 20:29:28 ehird, well. I don't need advice. there is just no way to fit it :P 20:29:46 i'm sure augur is an expert on extra-large joysticks 20:30:50 ..... 20:30:57 what? 20:31:37 ah maybe with laptop near the back of the desktop, since it is just installing atm, don't need to type anything 20:31:51 right! it's always important that your joystick fits snugly. 20:31:58 ........ 20:32:11 I want to play vegastrike. that is why 20:32:28 sure, sure, ...play is an important part of human existence 20:32:34 just don't break anything 20:33:16 anyway, I don't know about "extra large". the base "box" of the throttle is 17x17 cm. about the same for the joystick 20:33:24 how tall? 20:34:00 AnMaster: ? 20:34:13 throttle? depending on what position it is in.. between 14 and 20 cm it seems 20:34:17 rouhly 20:34:21 roughly* 20:34:49 that's more than average 20:35:12 joystick: close to 30 cm when in center position. Both these measures include the height of the base "box" too 20:35:23 which is about 5 cm for either 20:35:28 AnMaster: !!! 20:35:29 that's HUGE! 20:35:42 ehird, is it? Never owned any other joystick 20:35:51 ...i don't think many people do... 20:35:59 ehird, own a joystick? 20:36:02 hm ok 20:36:04 my joysticks are indeed extra large 20:36:05 more than one 20:36:15 augur: his is 11" 20:36:15 Saitek X52 Pro btw 20:36:22 quite good for flight sim 20:36:24 [20:35] AnMaster: joystick: close to 30 cm when in center position. Both these measures include the height of the base "box" too 20:36:29 i have an 17" and an 18" joystick. ;o 20:36:40 i have a 1000" joystick, true story. 20:36:46 :o 20:36:47 hawt 20:36:57 can get hard to carry around, like to lan parties 20:37:02 and people like to play with it a lot there 20:37:05 kinda attracts a crowd 20:37:07 it uses the hall effect for sensing the position of the joystick. Rather than messy potentiometers 20:37:10 oh sorry i thought we were talking about dildos 20:37:19 no 20:37:19 penises 20:37:24 oh i see 20:37:26 AND THUS THE EXTENDED INNUENDO ENDS 20:37:31 augur, no. Joysticks. As in real joysticks 20:37:35 yes 20:37:37 anmaster has no sense of humor. 20:37:38 real joysticks, AnMaster 20:37:38 and yes I know what ehird was trying to do :P 20:37:40 that's what we're talking about,. 20:37:43 but I ignored it 20:37:44 s/,\.$/./ 20:37:49 * augur plays with ehirds joystick 20:37:50 AnMaster: retcon retcon retcon 20:37:56 (erection erection erection?) 20:37:58 oh man 20:38:00 bad timing 20:38:02 why you gotta do that augur 20:38:05 ehird, I actually realised it at " that's HUGE!" 20:38:15 because I though: "no I'm pretty sure it isn't" 20:38:15 AnMaster: your naivety knows no bounds 20:38:41 ehird, yes I'm probably naive when it comes to innuendo 20:38:47 and? 20:39:09 the joystick is where? in your end? oh. 20:39:43 ehird, do you like blinkenlights? 20:39:53 no finkerpoken or mittengrabbem 20:39:55 *mittengrabben 20:40:04 another translation thingy: "In his words : ' is the operation was now are to Provide INFORMATION ABOUT IT ." 20:40:06 ehird, you are no geek :P 20:40:08 Mittens :D 20:40:18 apparently machine translations are Start To YELL AT YOU!!! 20:40:27 starting* 20:40:40 AnMaster: uhh, howso 20:41:17 ehird, aren't you supposed to like shiny blinking lights and such? 20:41:27 okay, let me get this straight 20:41:29 you made a reference 20:41:31 i continued it 20:41:37 and then you accused me of like 20:41:39 breaking the reference 20:41:43 youuuuuu're stuuuuupid 20:42:30 ehird, um. I didn't intend it as a reference like that. I intended it as a normal word for the mentioned concept (that of blinking lights) 20:42:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights 20:42:39 You fail. 20:42:42 oh wait I misread you 20:42:49 no finkerpoken or mittengrabbem <-- read "no" as "nor" 20:42:55 as in, you didn't like the reference 20:42:55 ... 20:43:28 guh electron microscopes use electrons 20:43:33 i thought they looked at electrons 20:43:33 xD 20:43:50 ehird, seriously? 20:43:56 yeah :D 20:43:57 you seriously thought that? 20:43:58 :D 20:44:05 * AnMaster laughs at ehird 20:44:19 it isn't _that_ far-fetched 20:44:33 ehird, they use electrons due to the shorter wavelength. In order to be able to "see" smaller details 20:44:55 at least that is what I learnt in the physics course in school 20:45:17 * AnMaster wonders about UK education 20:45:43 listening is never mandatory :P 20:46:23 qemu emulates a Pentium2? *HUH* 20:46:33 running at 2261 MHz 20:46:34 :D 20:46:43 that's one rare Pentium II 21:20:18 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 21:21:21 man 21:21:26 ive started packing my books 21:21:53 ive got almost three boxes full already 21:22:08 and im only done with the shelf along the top part of my wall 21:22:19 so many books x.x 21:25:26 electron microscopes do look at electrons, though :| 21:25:39 ehird, question: as you know my laptop is high dpi. How do I make it possible to actually read what it says in plan9 on it :D 21:25:51 as in, where do I set DPI/font size stuff 21:26:30 augur, are you moving? 21:26:37 anmaster: yeah 21:27:04 ok. good luck with finding large enough boxes 21:27:39 oh i have, dont worry 21:31:21 uh 21:31:42 I get this across my plan9 screen atm: "err 2; arena arenas00 creation time after last write time" 21:31:43 lots of it 21:49:54 AnMaster: plan9 fonts are bitmaps iirc 21:50:01 so tough shit, scale up the window 21:50:11 or use a bigger font 22:08:54 * pikhq has a low opinion of bitmap fonts 22:12:22 It doesn't exactly matter unless you have good typefaces. 22:12:39 The Plan 9 fonts are non-free though, which is dumb. 22:13:10 (Of course, just because they're non-free doesn't mean they could just bundle Helvetica or something; they presumably aren't paying royalties on the current fonts.) 22:15:45 AnMaster: oh, that issue came up on 9fans recently - let me see if I can find the thread - the basic cause I believe is using venti and not allowing venti data dumps to complete, along with clock sync stuff 22:16:12 ha, venti breaks everything! 22:17:22 well, heres the thing - plan9 was designed to *not* run everything on the same box. its possible to do so, but stuff like the massive dumps of venti prints to your console because of frequent reboots tend to crop up 22:18:21 if this is a qemu vm, when i use venti and plan9 in qemu, i have to set up the venti server as a userspace process on a different qemu VM - trying to stuff a full venti/fossil/auth/cpu/terminal into a single qemu VM has never worked well for me 22:19:03 mostly because the qemu virtualization layer cant seem to handle it well - an all-in-one setup seems to work OK on native hardware or in vmware, but qemu just folds under the pressure 22:21:01 AnMaster: if you are interested in grappling with the 'arenas00 creation time' prints, look in http://9fans.net/archive/2009/07 and search for 'arenas' and you will find a long thread about exactly your issue 22:21:08 the cause, and how to eliminate it 22:21:31 Meh, that's work. *GIVES UP* 22:21:39 Further proof that Plan 9 sucks. 22:22:18 in terms of having the system be usable by people without extensive study and experience - plan9 is absolutely awful, that is for sure 22:22:33 i'm trolling man 22:22:40 i would say that learning how to use plan9 in any 'real' way took me almost 9 months of 10 hours a day study 22:22:44 im serious hah 22:23:17 mycroftiv: uhh really? 22:23:21 i think plan9 is so amazing i devote large amounts of my time trying to figure out how to make the learning/setup curve less insane 22:23:23 i did shit with plan 9 in hours 22:23:34 got it set up, looked at the 22:23:34 ehird: i doubt you did the things that make plan9 'important' in just a few hours 22:23:37 software stuff 22:23:43 used acme to hack out some code 22:23:45 if you havent had a cpu/auth server running before, imo youve never 'really' used plan 9 at all 22:23:47 tried to use /dev/tcp and failed 22:23:54 mycroftiv: meh, that involves having multiple boxes 22:24:01 ehird: E X A C T L Y 22:24:17 the 'real' thing plan9 is supposed to do is distribute its functions over a minimum of 4 boxes, really 22:24:30 multiple boxes = noise + space + money + unportability 22:24:31 = lame 22:24:50 well, thats why VMs are so important - i have 5 VMs running on an inexpensive desktop box currently 22:25:07 but mycroftiv 22:25:07 so moore's law and virtualization solved those issues 22:25:14 distributing across the same hardware is pointless! 22:25:18 it's semantically null! it does nothing! 22:25:19 no, its not at all 22:25:27 it is though! 22:25:29 it's just extra overhead 22:25:31 for no gain 22:25:33 no, you are totally mistaken 22:25:42 any OS that requires such a thing just has a bad process/communication model 22:28:29 ehird: any electronic circuit that requires more than a few transistors is clearly overdesigned and inefficient. 22:28:35 computers were a mistake to begin with! 22:28:44 * mycroftiv shrugs 22:28:51 What is it with this channel and strawmen lately? 22:28:58 that was my meta-point sir 22:29:09 Deep 22:30:02 deep like the mariana's trench 22:30:03 amirite 22:30:33 i get confused between the marianas trench and the mindano trench 22:31:02 oh 22:31:03 well 22:31:06 one is named after mariana 22:31:06 and 22:31:12 the other is named after mindano. 22:31:12 the other 22:31:15 is named after mindano 22:31:29 that clears things up, i hadnt noticed the difference in names before 22:31:31 mindanao actually 22:32:02 i figured it was probably mindanao, but you never know. :D 22:32:32 hmm 22:32:47 i ought to write a trivial bit of unexecutable os code so i can decide it's tedious and give up. 22:33:33 ehird: let me try to put it historically - the concept of plan9 was that bell labs would own and run all the hardware (cpus/disk servers/etc) and you would just have a cheap terminal that you dialed up the system on - and in your office, same thing, central machine room, cheap user terminals 22:33:50 so that was the usage scenario and model the OS was designed for, circa 1990 22:33:57 i know. 22:34:00 thin clients failed. 22:34:04 indeed 22:34:05 and that's a good thing 22:34:07 and plan9 failed 22:34:12 (not so much of a good thing) 22:34:16 but it failed for good reasons 22:34:24 thin clients are fundamentally bad, tho 22:34:26 plan 9 isn't 22:34:59 well, i dont see how you can say that - i mean, all of us now use our computers often as 'thin clients' given the modern web and 'all i ever use is the browser' style mainstream computer use 22:35:10 mmh 22:35:12 don't get me started 22:35:49 so as a practical matter, the 'thin client' mode of use is now incredibly popular - and i know lots of people who do all their work on remote xen hosted stuff delivered via citrix, also 22:36:01 plenty of things are incredibly popular 22:36:04 like windows 22:36:05 and suck, sure 22:36:16 thin clients are so popular right now becaus 22:36:17 e 22:36:19 they're CONVENIENT 22:36:27 due to the bloated heap of modern computing 22:36:32 but that's not required 22:36:42 sure, thin clients are good in a lot of cases 22:36:43 but 22:36:46 not so much thin client 22:36:52 as a thick client that gets external resources 22:37:00 a thin client has the display dictated to, just does IO 22:37:06 a thick client with external objects is much more powerful 22:37:20 and, even then, plenty of things could work better locally if only it was *more convenient* to do so 22:37:34 anyway, all this for me is subpoint to what im trying to say, which is that recreating an analog of the original plan9 architecture with multiple VMs on a single machine isnt pointless at all, any more than running more than one *application* at a time is pointlesss, because thats all you are doing! 22:38:04 it just shows to me that if plan 9 needs an ip address and a protocol to do more than one computation at once effectively, then its model is outdated 22:38:21 if i run a venti server VM, and a fossil server VM, and a cpu server VM, and then a terminal Vm (to give the extreme) - im just running 4 different software applications on one computer, its just a 'heavy' way to do so 22:38:25 s/ c/ c/ 22:38:28 bloody double spaces 22:38:44 mycroftiv: a lot of redundancy there too, i see your point, 22:38:55 and i get that with plan 9 it's "needed" to emulate the distribution this way, 22:39:02 I just don't think it's the good way, as opposed to a hack 22:39:05 the technical problem is actually the qemu virtualization layer being inadequate as a direct practical matter 22:39:24 so the software that is at fault is qemu, not plan9, in the original source incident i believe 22:39:45 ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 22:40:00 (though plan9 people would say that you are supposed to 'know' that after you first install plan9, you should probably *not* reboot until your initial archival dump from fossil to venti completes) 22:41:01 hhhhhhhhhhhh 22:42:01 ehird: but, if you want to find evidence to support your assertion about "if plan 9 needs an ip address and a protocol..." is a comment in the source code near an early boot bring up of IP stack saying "this is such a crock" 22:42:11 :-D 22:42:35 the fact that the process of trying to accomadate the average modern home user by figuring out how to stuff all the necessary components of a plan9 system into a single box that can be booted all at once - not so perfect, even by their standards 22:42:50 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 22:43:21 in the original system, the disk storage servers didnt even run the same kernel as the cpus and terminals 22:44:14 it was originally, code-wise, a 'different os' for each of the different functional components - over time that evolved and changed and some of the componenets were swapped out, like venti replacing the original archival data server 22:44:22 mm 22:44:31 back 22:44:33 have i mentioned recently that kernels suck? 22:44:38 mycroftiv, thanks for that link 22:44:53 s/ / / 22:45:31 AnMaster: welcome back, good luck with your setup - as i mentioned venti+fossil boot system inside qemu has always been problematic for me 22:45:36 ehird hm why? 22:45:44 mycroftiv, that is what I used yes 22:45:47 AnMaster: the explanation involves big words 22:45:59 brief summary http://tunes.org/wiki/no-kernel.html 22:46:09 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:46:10 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 22:46:59 ehird, how do you do scheduling of CPU time between objects? 22:47:14 * ehird hands AnMaster a "Didn't Read The Page At All" badge 22:47:24 ehird, I read the first few lines 22:47:29 -!- comex has joined. 22:47:34 ehird, and then: tl;dr 22:47:42 Well fuck you, I'm not your personal reading assistant. 22:47:51 You can't read seven short paragraph 22:47:52 s. 22:48:11 AnMaster: long story short - the answer is nontechnical but processes dont schedule themselves, they attach to another 'meta-object' that controls task switching 22:48:22 mycroftiv: tl;dr 22:48:28 sentence was over 10 words. 22:48:37 mycroftiv, right... And that bit runs in ring0? 22:48:43 -!- MigoMipo_ has left (?). 22:48:51 AnMaster: as i said, the wiki page was nontechnical 22:48:58 Hur hur the hardware is what makes all design decisions hur hur 22:49:05 Abstraction? UNPOSSIBLE!!! 22:49:11 mycroftiv, well. I'm wondering how the hell this could be implemented on x86 at least.... 22:49:26 which I assume is the goal 22:49:34 due to it being the most common architecture 22:49:48 (in this case x86 includes 64-bit variants) 22:50:07 AnMaster: my opinion as a practical matter is that your OS abstraction layer is above what you might call 'shim code' and that (just imo at least) in some ways the differences are semantic/conceptual more than anything else 22:50:27 if you really can't imagine how to not have a kernel and just use attached procedures for task switching... 22:50:34 then you're either hugely massively ignorant about how OSes work 22:50:36 or just can't hack. 22:50:46 mycroftiv, sure this looks all nice and fluffy, but whatever code runs in ring0 is "kernel" to me... 22:51:02 AnMaster: That's funny, then; you'll class my whole system as kernel. 22:51:04 and kernel includes stuff like loadable drivers to me. 22:51:12 ehird, ah, it is like inferno or such? 22:51:16 interesting 22:51:21 If I define kernel to mean something, it means that and not what it actually means. 22:51:21 and yes, that is an unusual case. 22:51:24 thats why im saying its mostly semantics and conceptualizing - and some real differences in what functional tasks are located in what coe blocks - but still 22:51:31 Shocking 22:52:28 My only comment on a no-kernel design is that it is probably very freaking hard to get working initially. 22:52:37 ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 22:52:46 we must be reading different articles 22:52:52 because it's exactly as easy as a kernel system 22:53:00 well, maybe a bit more accurate would be: whatever handles cpu scheduling, interrupt management, core memory management, doing the actual ring-0 code to do stuff like DMA and so on is the kernel 22:53:15 If I define kernel to mean something, it means that and not what it actually means. 22:53:38 ehird, then provide *YOUR* definition of kernel 22:53:43 I'm waiting 22:53:51 .......... 22:53:55 ehird: But you have to, like, do more design than "Alright, let's toy with the standard UNIX kernel design a bit". 22:54:04 Do you want me to ship a copy of Wikipedia to your house? 22:54:06 Would you like that? 22:54:15 Or is it too fucking long didn't goddamn read. 22:54:21 Jesus. 22:54:38 ehird,I find my definition quite fitting with the one on wikipedia 22:54:47 Basically, the thing making the design hard (IMO) is that you'd kinda be paving the way. 22:54:58 ehird, or do your system *trust all "traditionally userspace" code* 22:55:00 Not much of a criticsm, just a comment. 22:55:18 AnMaster: It's like a microkernel only more so. 22:55:22 well 22:55:34 pikhq: Ding. 22:55:35 Wrong. 22:55:41 It is nothing like a microkernel at all. 22:55:46 In fact, microkernels are possibly the antithesis of it. 22:56:07 pikhq, he indicated everything ran in ring 0 above: " AnMaster: That's funny, then; you'll class my whole system as kernel.". Seems insecure if you are, say, browsing the web 22:56:09 or whatever 22:56:28 there will *always* be bugs in anything as complex as a web browser 22:56:29 "Make it so that as little is done in the kernel as possible" is a lot like "Make it so that the 'kernel' is a misnomer." 22:56:37 AnMaster: You're truly an idiot. 22:56:45 ehird, care to justify? 22:56:49 or just personal insult :P 22:56:58 AnMaster: thats right, the web is TEEEMING with exploits targeting a nonexistent operating system ;) 22:57:01 AnMaster: And the OS would be written in Smalltalk. 22:57:08 AnMaster: No, because you never understand any of my justifications or rebut them with strawmen and faux-jokes because you're an idiot. 22:57:12 So I'll settle for a personal insult. 22:57:15 mycroftiv, well, assuming it would become popular. Which I also assume is a goal of every OS 22:57:34 ehird, you FAIL 22:57:35 The only exploits akin to, say, the crazy shit done on Windows pre-NT would be from bugs of the Smalltalk implementation. 22:57:37 :P 22:57:46 nobody with any sense thinks any os is going to be popular unless it starts with a w, ends with s, and has indow in the middle 22:58:29 mycroftiv, yet linux is not that uncommon nowdays. Popular might even be a good word for it. Though far from as popular as windows indeed. 22:58:31 * ehird remembers that his client has an ignore feature, unlike his previous one 23:00:06 mycroftiv, anyway as far as I can see, trusting all code that runs seems stupid. Surely running code in a ring != 0 has proven a good (which isn't same as "perfect") solution by now :P 23:01:10 AnMaster: i have no opinion, and none of the stuff from tunes or that ehird has said actually seems to make any kind of statement one way or another in that regard - i think ehird was speaking more generally about the 'whole os being kernel' than what ring stuff was assigned to 23:01:11 iirc also at least on x86 and x86_64 running everything in ring 0 would be suboptimal. As in: stuff like task switching and page tables are designed for a kernel/userspace split. 23:01:29 at least that is what reading the architectural documentation for AMD64 seemed to indicate 23:02:12 AnMaster: from everything ive gathered from ehird, most of the things he talks about are always taking place at a layer of abstraction built up from the native hardware behavior 23:02:50 mycroftiv, also, memory protection is good for other reasons too. Remember "app crashing crashed whole OS"? Wasn't that long ago that was the norm outside *nix 23:03:07 I said 23:03:10 [22:50] AnMaster: mycroftiv, sure this looks all nice and fluffy, but whatever code runs in ring0 is "kernel" to me... 23:03:10 [22:51] ehird: AnMaster: That's funny, then; you'll class my whole system as kernel. 23:03:14 but that was just trolling him. 23:03:44 mycroftiv, and I'm mostly interested in the actual implementation details. The low level stuff. 23:03:52 which ehird seems to hate thinking about 23:03:57 and talking about 23:04:27 AnMaster: yes, its obvious that you and ehird direct your thinking at different topics, and i myself agree that 90% (99%?) of the actual work tends to be struggling with that stuff to get the abstractions you want created and working right 23:04:42 actually, my OS maps fairly directly to the hardware. 23:04:48 moreso, dare I say, than Linux 23:04:52 as it's just simpler. 23:04:55 mycroftiv, was that agreeing with me or ehird? 23:04:59 I'm not sure 23:05:07 AnMaster: its saying that you are talking past each other 23:05:25 * ehird attempts to think of a context in which mycroftiv's last line makes sense 23:05:27 ehird: do you know about um, whats it called, battlecruiser 3000 or something, and that guy's legendary flame wars on the net? 23:05:27 ehird: Certainly easier to add features to. 23:05:39 mycroftiv: nope 23:05:42 Hooray, modularity. 23:05:43 ehird: it makes sense when its obvious that you guys disagree on definitions 23:05:46 Battlecruiser 3000AD (also known as [BC3K] in Usenet) is one of the longest-developed games in computer game history. 23:05:48 sounds fun 23:05:59 mycroftiv, I'm a fan of OSes like http://www.coyotos.org/ Imagine how much I will dislike a OS *not* caring about security 23:06:17 well, its interesting - and its a cautionary tale - it actually turned out to be a pretty good game, and the guy has a continuing series of later games that seem to have a fan community 23:06:24 AnMaster: ... But he's not not caring about security. 23:06:45 is AnMaster accusing my OS of being insecure? 23:06:46 pikhq, and gets angry when I want to know about how he implemented it 23:07:01 does he know I'm doing a full fucking capability based system? 23:07:03 with no exceptions? 23:07:12 however, the original game took forever to make and was notorious for the guy making it trolling the hell out of usenet by talking about how great his game was, before hed actually written much of it 23:07:15 You'll note that the OS is meant to be programmed in Smalltalk. Who needs hardware memory protection when the language itself guarantees memory safety? 23:07:20 ehird, why not unignore me if you are going to ask what I just said... 23:07:31 HURR BUT WHAT IF YOU HAVE A BUG IN THE INTERPRETER 23:07:41 pikhq, hah. Well I didn't know that until a few minutes ago when ehird said it 23:07:43 Oh, wait, Linux has the exact same problem. So do all kernel systems. 23:07:47 Can I say "system calls"? 23:07:48 or was it you or mycroftiv? 23:08:05 brb 23:08:05 He's said it in the past, at least. 23:08:17 pikhq, I have been away for most of the last few days 23:08:21 ehird: you should stop talking about your os as if its something that exists and is running now and has definite proven characteristics. 23:08:24 It's pretty damned clear he intends to do it all in Smalltalk, and have the Smalltalk implementation written in Forth. 23:08:33 ehird, your attempts at trolling fails when you are guessing at what I'm saying 23:08:37 mycroftiv: i'm not 23:08:42 i'm talking about the fundamental design 23:08:52 i.e., if these constraints aren't met, it isn't the OS 23:09:02 mycroftiv, link to that game? 23:09:18 anyway, brb 23:09:21 well, thats why i point to the battlecruiser 3000 example, because its so similar, in terms of the failures of communication between designer and people he was talking to 23:09:43 AnMaster: i dunno, i always just google it when it crosses my mind to check in on it 23:09:47 ah 23:09:51 mycroftiv, is it freeware? 23:10:09 it is now, yeah - its day of legendary usenet flame wars was a decade ago or something 23:10:50 mycroftiv, anyway I'm genuinely interested in how ehird is going to solve the actual implementation on x86/x86_64 while ensuring good performance. And good security. 23:11:43 AnMaster: just as i told ehird he shouldnt talk about his os as if it exists yet, i think its also silly for you to expect implementation details given that you know there isnt any code running yet 23:11:51 mycroftiv, I wonder what will become of DNF then... 23:12:41 mycroftiv, well surely he must have considered "will this design actually work on hardware that is likely to be available" 23:12:57 "or do I need to develop my own -machine?" 23:13:02 AnMaster: See Smalltalk for more details. 23:14:15 AnMaster: Well, you can get whatever chips you want to implement whatever formal behavior you want, thats pretty well established - and I agree with where Fred Brooks ended up about software development: 23:14:43 iterate, improve, iterate, improve - always from a working minimal testbed - and do your design 'ahead' of yourself, but constantly with redesign based on the testing and use 23:14:50 pikhq, I know it is closed world. But you have to consider "will it run well on common architectures" when designing anything. To take an _extreme_ example: Searching memory by using CAM is more efficient than most other search algorithms. Yet it isn't commonly available on most hardware. 23:15:12 Found in special equipment like network switches and routers mostly 23:15:26 AnMaster: ... But Smalltalk works, and it works sufficiently well for most purposes. 23:15:37 an OS that depended on it for being efficient would be rather useless for most people 23:16:06 This is like asking if C could be used for an OS... 23:16:06 pikhq, yes. But does he intend to run it under a host OS hosting the smalltalk implementation forever? 23:16:08 AnMaster: anyone doing any work on creating a 'new os' should obviously know as a practical matter most people will never hear of it or care. and thats ok. 23:16:15 or will it be the "native OS you boot into" at some point 23:16:28 like the one you select in grub 23:16:38 (or whatever bootloader you use) 23:17:35 AnMaster: ehird has stated clearly that he intends to control the hardware natively and not run simply as hosted 'environment' 23:18:05 mycroftiv, right. Maybe he did before. But as I mentioned, I have been pretty busy during the days recently 23:18:26 and I hardly have time to read several hours of fast paced conversation in logs 23:18:53 so I might have missed details when I was marked away :P 23:19:09 i didnt mean for my statement 'ehird has stated clearly...' to carry the implication that you were at fault for not knowing that 23:19:30 hm 23:19:37 and he intends to code it in small talk? 23:19:46 won't the small talk runtime system be the "kernel" then 23:19:52 in a certain sense 23:20:05 not really, he wants to use forth for the lower level components of the system 23:20:13 since iirc smalltalk is pretty hosted. far from the "portable asm" that C is 23:20:31 create a smalltalk implementation hosted within his forth environment 23:20:39 hm 23:21:01 won't the forth part act as the kernel of the smalltalk part then 23:21:03 thats the basic concept he has outlined, which is definitely challenging, but i dont think there is anything at all 'wrong' with it conceptually 23:21:31 i cant speak for him, the way the two of you define 'kernel' hasnt been straightened out 23:21:50 so i think when you say 'kernel' its fkdjkjaasd to him and when he says 'kernel' its kaoiuweruieu to you 23:22:32 you seem to be using an 'operational' definition, in the sense of 'the kernel is whatever code that does x, y, z, so if x, y, z are done, whatever does them, we call a kernel' 23:22:47 mycroftiv, to me kernel is the lowest level parts of an OS. Mostly those that *must* be run in ring 0 to work. Which on x86 means stuff like task switching and memory management, setting up DMA transfers, managing and handling interrupts 23:22:50 and a lot more 23:23:16 AnMaster: yes, and that definition seems to make ehird angry, he seems to regard is as unconventional/incorrect 23:23:28 mycroftiv, and he referred me to wikipedia 23:23:36 and that wikipedia page seems to agree with me 23:23:51 i have no role as referee as to definitional correctness, i wash my hands 23:24:00 i agree with humpty dumpty personally 23:24:04 "[The kernel's] responsibilities include managing the system's resources (the communication between hardware and software components)" 23:24:10 "when i use a word, it means exactly what i want it to mean, neither more nor less" 23:24:12 back 23:24:35 ehird: i was trying to answer some questions, you should verify my statements because i cant speak for you 23:24:56 but i believe stuff like 'forth lower layer, smalltalk upper layer' is 'established fact' about your os design now 23:25:47 * ehird unignores AnMaster and reads logs to make sense 23:25:49 15:21:01 won't the forth part act as the kernel of the smalltalk part then 23:25:50 no. 23:25:56 Smalltalk, for instance, handles talking to the keyboard 23:25:58 and the display 23:25:58 etc 23:26:06 Forth is just for writing the Smalltalk and what's needed for that. 23:26:24 15:22:47 mycroftiv, to me kernel is the lowest level parts of an OS. Mostly those that *must* be run in ring 0 to work. Which on x86 means stuff like task switching and memory management, setting up DMA transfers, managing and handling interrupts 23:26:36 by that definition, both all of my OS and none of my OS and everything in between is the kernel 23:26:47 sure you could isolate some bits and say maybe-this-is-the-kernel 23:26:52 but it'd be hopeless 23:27:07 15:24:04 "[The kernel's] responsibilities include managing the system's resources (the communication between hardware and software components)" 23:27:08 mycroftiv, you can't do certain stuff in userspace on most modern CPU arches. This includes x86, PPC and some more. Userspace being defined as "whatever is the equivalent of ring 3 on the CPU arch". You will get general protection fault for loading the task register while in ring 3 for example on x86. 23:27:10 there is no manager in my OS 23:27:15 consider the kernel as the government 23:27:20 and my OS as a peaceful anarchist commune 23:27:56 (depending on your politics, you may have a mental blockage that anything could be peaceful without the implicit global threat of force) 23:28:12 ehird, are all applications managed, as in running under a VM, like inferno or such 23:28:22 where VM here would be the smalltalk code I assume 23:28:29 Mu 23:28:38 capability system 23:28:49 if an object has a reference to another object that talks directly to the hardware 23:28:51 then it can talk to the hardware 23:28:52 ehird, what *enforces* the capabilities 23:29:00 AnMaster: capabilities don't require "enforcement" 23:29:02 plz see wikipedia 23:30:01 (depending on your politics, you may have a mental blockage that anything could be peaceful without the implicit global threat of force) <-- I don't live in US... 23:30:08 AnMaster: loooooool 23:30:16 you know how a government derives its authority right? 23:30:17 yes it was a lame joke :P 23:30:26 ehird, yes 23:30:28 anyway 23:30:31 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has left (?). 23:30:31 there is no such thing as a de jure government, only a de facto one enforced by the threat of violence 23:30:33 anyway, technically, an assorted bunch of objects around the system will have methods that run in ring-0, as an implementation detail 23:30:40 this does not include drivers 23:30:45 government derives its authority from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony 23:30:45 drivers just use these objects to talk to the hardware 23:30:58 and so you'd have drivers running in userspace according to you 23:31:23 ehird, ok. I can already see the performance problems ahead on x86. I suspect I know more about this sort of thing on x86 than you do. 23:31:25 :/ 23:31:32 I agree the idea sounds great 23:31:35 think what you want 23:31:51 you realise that smalltalk as an os is nothing new right 23:31:55 that's what the original smalltalk was 23:32:02 ehird, drivers in user space is certainly possible. But for some stuff it just won't cut it 23:32:18 i'm uninterested in your argument by assertion 23:32:39 ehird: Shame that modern CPUs are effectively C machines, isn't it? Makes it a bit hard to imagine anything else. 23:32:50 overhead of switching between userspace/kernel when handling interrupts from a 10 gbps ethernet card? 23:32:58 AnMaster: userspace/kernel? 23:32:58 are you serious :P 23:32:59 no such thing 23:33:01 ehird, well 23:33:04 ehird, ring 0/3 23:33:23 and don't even suggest ring 1 or 2 on x86. They are *even* slower to switch to/from 23:33:46 taking everything you said as axiomatic, because I can't be arsed to argue: then we run everything under ring 0 23:33:54 since ring 0<->3 has a "fast path" named SYSCALL/SYSRET and/or SYSENTER/SYSEXIT 23:34:00 depending on if you ask AMD or Intel 23:34:23 i like how you seem to think that an operation on a cpu will somehow not achieve 10gbps? 23:34:31 AnMaster: Actually, there's more than those for ring 0<->3 jumps... 23:34:59 pikhq, yes there is more to do. I was simplifying for the sake of the discussion 23:35:03 Linux has a function at a fixed memory location that does whatever's fastest, because there's so many ways to do it... 23:35:07 Anyways. 23:35:20 pikhq, but going to/from rings 1 and 2 is *even* slower 23:35:40 pikhq, and I know about the vdso :) 23:35:48 AnMaster: btw, I'm among good company with my won't-cut-it performance-destroying managed model 23:35:51 AnMaster: Tell that to Xen? :P 23:35:53 like microsoft, with their Singularity project 23:36:09 it's comforting to know both me and microsoft know less about x86 than AnMaster 23:36:13 ehird, running everything in ring 0 could work 23:36:23 ehird: Microsoft Research. 23:36:24 They 23:36:32 are 23:36:34 pikhq: aka the good part of Microsoft 23:36:34 coming 23:36:35 're the same guys that think Haskell is a decent language. ;) 23:36:41 ehird: Quite right. 23:36:45 pikhq, Well. That is relative "interpreting/dynamic recompiling in userspace" 23:37:01 pikhq, then yes using the extra rings is better 23:37:59 pikhq, iirc virtualbox uses ring 1 too for this. Not sure if that applies when using VT-x/AMD-V though 23:39:37 VT-x/AMD-V is most akin to VM-86. That is, the code runs in ring 0, except with unsafe calls automagically getting shipped on through to the hypervisor. 23:39:43 AnMaster: since you mention virtual machines, doesnt that point in the direction of 'not worrying' because I can run a qemu vm with no kqemu on an almost 10 year old freebsd box and put plan9 inside and still have a usable environment? 23:39:43 anyway AnMaster, my system absolutely has no *centralised* kernel 23:39:48 and that's what a kernel is! 23:39:54 sure it has privileged code 23:39:58 but a kernel is centralised, that's the definition 23:40:07 mycroftiv, plan9 doesn't use a lot of resources 23:40:36 I was thinking more about "server under high load, maybe DDoS" kind of scenario. 23:40:51 mycroftiv: not worrying about what? 23:40:53 i missed the context 23:41:00 im just saying, so far as I can tell, even the 'worst case scenario' of having the slowest possible way of using weak hardware, you can still get something usable out of it 23:41:38 ehird: not worrying too much about optimal hardware performance 23:42:02 ehird, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capability-based_addressing looks nice, but that requires hardware support, which isn't present on x86 at least. 23:42:04 oh you mean the ring0 vs ring3 task switching crap? 23:42:11 i ignored that because it's obviously fast enough 23:42:16 AnMaster: see, heres my perspective - i started using a computer in 1980, and subjectively, that was still the FASTEST computer ive ever used in terms of time-to-task in many ways 23:42:27 AnMaster: useless 23:42:34 mycroftiv, heh 23:42:36 you basically never access memory directly anyway 23:42:43 so why would I use that? 23:42:45 ehird, you don't? 23:42:50 well not in smalltalk I guess 23:43:00 correction: Not in any sane system. 23:43:10 ehird, do you want to be able to run ported programs written in other languages? 23:43:37 No. My OS doesn't have programs, it has objects. 23:43:57 Dual-booting or using a VM is infinitely preferable to breaking the model like that, because you'll just end up with something that acts like a VM anyway. 23:44:00 definitions, definitions, definitions 23:44:03 ehird, so you will need to develop your own web browser object replacement instead of creating an object that wraps webkit? 23:44:05 If you really need it, POSIX/ELF emulation layer, fully sandboxed. 23:44:09 as an example 23:44:24 AnMaster: Maybe if I was trying to freakin' make something practical I'd be cloning Linux, have you considered that? 23:44:28 mycroftiv: no, fundamental design 23:44:35 im gonna make an os where i dont have programs, i dont have objects, i have DELICIOUS CHEESECAKE and ICE CREAM and it will be great 23:44:37 ehird, I thought something usable was a goal 23:44:43 And?!! 23:44:52 as in "this is a OS I will use as my main one in 10 years time" 23:44:53 Plan 9 doesn't integrate POSIX apps either. 23:44:54 or such 23:45:00 ehird: i dont believe smalltalk and object oriented is actually 'fundamnetal' in the sense you do - i think its a perfetly valid and useful and beautiful set of abstractions 23:45:09 mycroftiv: fact is 23:45:13 but i dont think it means that a program aint a program any more, its just an objecct 23:45:14 a posix program does NOT fit in with my model 23:45:15 at all 23:45:16 thas just semantics 23:45:58 ehird, will you have some sort of window manager for the OS? 23:46:16 some "this isn't horrible X but it handles the GUI" sort of thing 23:46:35 any plans for the GUI? 23:46:35 I'm working on a hobby OS called Linux 23:46:35 Does it have a web browser yet? 23:46:41 yes. 23:46:49 but don't say GUI, there is no command line. 23:46:57 well, the bootup forth console could count. 23:48:29 it's just the ui 23:48:32 ehird, I was not saying "has it yet", I was saying "any plans for this" 23:48:37 please read what I actually said 23:48:40 nononono 23:48:41 i mean 23:48:44 don't say GUI 23:48:46 the G is redundant 23:48:49 there's just the UI 23:48:55 I meant about the "Leenus Torvalts" bit :P 23:48:57 it happens to require a graphics processor and a colour display 23:49:14 AnMaster: window manager is an implementation detail, though 23:49:17 who says i'll even use windows? 23:49:30 ehird, isn't my old vector display enough? WILL I NEED A FRAMEBUFFER? 23:49:32 ;P 23:49:38 quite so good cheap 23:49:40 ... 23:49:40 chap 23:49:52 ehird, what would you use instead of windows 23:49:58 as in, what sort of abstraction 23:50:11 who knows 23:50:27 the abstraction of "windows" while far from perfect seems to be one that "kind of works better than everything else thought of so far" 23:51:00 You know that the typical user's workflow consists of a tab bar at the bottom, with applications, and in one of those windows a tab bar at the top, being their pages, right? 23:51:11 this has nothing to do with ehird's os (since he doesnt like them) but i believe that we should replace the desktop metaphor with a namespace tree/network map 23:51:13 Floating windows aren't used by the average computer user 23:51:24 mycroftiv: wait when did i say i didn't like those 23:51:38 ehird: you said you didnt like hierarchical file systems 23:51:41 mycroftiv: oh 23:51:42 well yeah, I don't 23:51:45 I don't like trees 23:51:55 I like floating things that you can search 23:52:27 right, and my visualization is a big 'tree' that shows your file system and you can zoom in and out on the content hanging on the branches, and it also can be zoomed out to show network map of the lan, etc - show the interconnections on the workspace 23:52:27 ehird: you said you didnt like hierarchical file systems <-- that is easily solved. Don't use MacOS 23:52:38 not just a blank space full of disconnected icons 23:52:40 (HFS is short for "hierarchical file system" ;P) 23:53:10 Similarly, Mac OS is clearly an operating system for raincoats. 23:53:13 ehird, you don't like trees? You will hate implementing memory management on x86 then :D 23:53:17 And fruit. 23:53:20 it is trees. lots of them 23:53:26 page table trees 23:53:35 format dictated by hardware 23:53:47 I'll just molest x86 until it does what I want. 23:53:55 If I have to rewrite all the microcode, so be it. 23:54:10 ehird, think it is hard wired into the silicon. 23:54:12 for speed reasons 23:54:16 ehird, and the MMU 23:54:23 AnMaster: so? 23:54:30 microcode won't help 23:54:30 i'll just find some instructions that heat up the processor so much that it melts 23:54:36 and then cool down at just the right time 23:54:38 oh HCF right 23:54:38 voila! new microcode 23:54:46 ok, i meant to get some food 3 hours ago, time to avoid dying of starvation due to os discussions 23:54:59 mycroftiv: so 23:55:05 mycroftiv: I WAS THINKING ABOUT MEMORY MANAGEMENT 23:55:12 also your inability to eat. 23:57:04 ehird, memory management is fun. Getting it right is *hard* 23:57:20 Doesn't sound fun to me 23:58:22 ehird, go read some reference manuals for system programming. AMD ones are generally easier to find your way around in than intel ones. Use both for the best result 23:58:32 eh 23:58:42 I've been able to avoid any Intel/AMD manuals so far in my life 23:58:51 admittedly that makes coding asm nontrivial 23:58:55 ehird, you won't if coding a full blown OS 23:59:09 meh :D 23:59:24 ehird, handing SMP is even funnier 23:59:48 please tell me the CPU doesn't have a predefined notion of processes/threads that it uses to do that? 23:59:52 please tell me it's lower-level ;_; 2009-08-09: 00:00:04 ehird, it does have a notion of "tasks". 00:00:12 well yeah but those are uber-vague 00:00:26 ehird, it doesn't know the difference between processes and threads though 00:00:47 And it doesn't have a fucking *clue* about doing that on multiple processors. 00:01:00 SMP is... A hack. 00:01:04 they are the same on linux at least. just fork() but instead of COW it is shared on write 00:01:08 pikhq, yep 00:01:22 the OS needs to handle scheduling across different CPUs 00:01:23 Of course, x86 is a series of hacks. So. 00:01:28 processes are stupid 00:01:49 they're the single worst example of the hardware/kernel details being exposed to the top-level 00:02:02 oh and dual core is funnier 00:02:11 short quotation from intel docs showing this: 00:02:33 "Some bit fields in IA32_MISC_ENABLE MSR (MSR address 1A0H) may be shared between two logical processors sharing a processor core, or may be shared between different cores in a physical processor. See Appendix B, “Model-Specific Registers (MSRs)”." 00:02:51 ah yes MSRs... 00:02:51 dual-core? don't you mean N-core 00:02:55 ehird, well yes 00:02:57 well "multi core" 00:03:05 i thought you meant some weird 2-core specificness 00:03:18 sorry I was vague 00:03:27 ehird, you need to sync MTRRs between cpus btw 00:03:30 not sure about cores 00:03:51 ehird: I said "true pedants" not "pedants" 00:03:58 AnMaster: please, can't you stop talking about this? it's making me want to get a heap of cash, buy a Symbolics and lock myself in a cave 00:03:59 not properly syncing them caused some semi-(in)famous bug in linux years ago. 00:04:04 coppro: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHetc 00:04:23 ehird, :D 00:04:39 WITHOUT EVEN AN ETHERNET CABLE 00:04:51 ehird, so lets skip hyperthreading then ;P 00:04:56 (hint: it is even worse) 00:05:00 the cpu can handle hyperthreading. 00:05:05 i doooooon't want to think about that 00:05:05 ehird, the OS must 00:05:09 what why 00:05:12 can't i just pretend it's a core. 00:05:24 ehird, nop. Not on the basic level 00:05:28 i mean hyperthreading worked in windows before the pentium 4 afaik 00:05:31 it looks quite different 00:05:32 like in the test samples. 00:05:47 i guess it would bloat the silicon to handle the scheduling but urgh 00:05:56 ehird, pretty sure the shipped some driver then that enabled it then 00:06:03 ah 00:06:14 so step one become the most-used OS in the world 00:06:15 Okay. I'm vomiting. 00:06:15 ehird, or maybe the interface was different back then 00:06:18 step two make intel my bitch and do it for me 00:06:23 pikhq, about? 00:06:25 pikhq: try not to 00:06:27 pikhq, hyperthreading? 00:06:33 That is such an *awful* design. 00:06:34 AnMaster: All of x86. 00:06:35 if so I agree 00:06:38 ALL OF IT. 00:06:45 the result of hyperthreading is cool! 00:07:22 ehird: I do believe that CPUs themselves need to be more abstract. A Brainfuck machine with peripherals memory-mapped? 00:07:29 ehird, you don't want to know how debuggers work 00:07:33 pikhq: graph reducer, bitch 00:07:34 that bit makes me want to vomit 00:07:47 AnMaster: Why, they hook in to the VM in question, of course. 00:07:48 hardware breakpoints *eugh* 00:07:56 ehird, I meant, traditional debuggers 00:07:59 If you're running a legacy native code program, you hook into the emulator! 00:08:03 AnMaster: LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU 00:08:08 ehird: A graph reducer? That would be awesome. 00:08:10 FLUFFY UNICORNS LA LA LA 00:08:11 pikhq: it exists! 00:08:23 ehird: A HASKELL MACHINE! 00:08:24 :P 00:08:30 pikhq: That's what a graph reducer is! 00:08:33 sounds awesome 00:08:35 YES! 00:08:41 sec 00:08:43 i'll link you 00:09:09 ehird, I assume you know about CPUID btw? 00:09:13 http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/reduceron/ 00:09:16 the think on x86 to check what the CPU supports 00:09:19 fairly good idea 00:09:38 AnMaster: i'm not targeting anything below, say, core 2 00:09:49 I'd support Atom if it did 64 bit 00:10:14 however, first you must check CPUID exists. Since it didn't on 386. Thus you must first test if you can write to a specific register. If you can't bail out with "augh this is a 386. don't even try to run me" 00:10:18 but I really have better things to do than cater to people with ancient CPUs 00:10:34 ehird, just showing how horrible x86 is ^ 00:10:41 yes, I know 00:10:49 that's why I'm not thinking about anything older than a few years 00:10:52 ehird, btw to run 64-bit you need to set up page table first 00:10:56 It's a bloody Haskell machine! 00:10:59 at least modern x86_64 cpus are basically intercompatible 00:11:05 pikhq: Yes, the Reduceron is. 00:11:07 ehird: Currently-produced Atom chips are 64-bit. 00:11:11 they are? 00:11:13 I might support them. 00:11:17 ehird, as in. you need paging enabled to enter long mode (long mode = official name for 64-bit mode) 00:11:22 AnMaster: Yeah, I know. 00:11:34 I'll probably set up a ridiculous paging scheme that lets me abuse it for nefarious purposes. 00:11:49 But the first thing my OS will do is do what it needs to do to enter long mode and then do i. 00:11:51 *it 00:11:53 ehird, to begin with just creating a page for the entire memory might be sane 00:11:56 Bye bye, legacy cruft. 00:12:03 AnMaster: To begin with? Why, LoseThos never gives up that notion! 00:12:12 :D 00:12:22 ehird, the "enter long mode" bit is probably best coded in asm. For your own sanity I mean 00:12:29 Of course 00:12:34 As well as the Forth implementation 00:12:42 No GRUB, too. 00:12:46 Writing my own bootloader. 00:12:52 Why? Because GRUB's written in C. :P 00:12:58 Also, uses ELF. 00:13:06 ehird, I would suggest forth begins directly/shortly after you entered long mode 00:13:12 yes 00:13:13 All that using GRUB gets you is entering protected mode. 00:13:25 Which is *annoying*, but not too hard to write. 00:13:26 pikhq, which is quite nice though 00:13:45 entering long mode is worse than entering protected mode 00:13:52 Yeah. 00:14:00 bootloader → long mode → forth → basic hardware setup → smalltalk vm → rest of hardware → full bootup procedure (unless it's the first time, this consists basically of restoring the last state) → done! 00:14:13 ehird, btw, another issue. In long mode you need all drivers. 00:14:14 as in 00:14:18 Protected mode is just a few frobs to the keyboard controller and a ocuple register. 00:14:21 you can't enter the 16 bit mode thingy 00:14:24 to call the BIOS 00:14:26 Erm. Couple registers. 00:14:37 AnMaster: What? You can't use the BIOS in long mode? 00:14:46 Just making sure I'm understanding you right 00:15:21 SILENCE 00:15:24 ehird, basically you can't use the BIOS interrupts to handle stuff like basic hardware for you (PATA/SATA controller for example) before you written a driver 00:15:28 when in long mode 00:15:40 Does the driver stay in 16-bit mode or something? 00:15:56 If not, I suppose existing 64-bit OSs just DIY it? 00:15:57 ehird, do you know about vm86? 00:15:58 If so, then I will. 00:16:02 AnMaster: no 00:16:17 looks putrid 00:16:20 virtual 8086 mode 00:16:25 used to call the bios 00:16:31 and other stuff 00:16:33 anyway, does the BIOS really do all that much for you? 00:16:47 I imagine what with incompatibilities and the like, it wouldn't be too hard to avoid using it 00:16:56 ehird, it provides slow access to hardware until you have your own drivers up and running 00:16:58 (incompatibilities i.e. you can't rely on stuff that differs between BIOSes) 00:17:06 *BIOSs 00:17:13 AnMaster: eh 00:17:23 that's useful for... accessing the harddrive, and not much else 00:17:25 like, before you handle the VESA bit yourself you can use interrupts to make the BIOS do it. 00:17:29 how hard can it be to use SATA? 00:17:34 AnMaster: don't need VESA 00:17:44 until boot 00:17:51 ehird, well VGA then. Before you have anything up however... 00:17:59 don't need VGA 00:18:30 AnMaster, there's no sense in using BIOS interrupts for doing VGA. 00:18:50 ehird, anyway my point is that until you developed your own drivers for stuff like harddrive, video, keyboard/mouse (usb emulation is provided by bios), going into long mode == bad idea 00:18:51 There's no fancy bootup process; you turn it on, the screen sits there for a few seconds and then it turns graphical and your objects appear how you left them 00:18:58 so I don't really need those things 00:19:07 AnMaster: the drivers are written in forth and smalltalk 00:19:08 sooo 00:19:11 no :P 00:19:17 It takes less code to talk to the VGA card manually then it does to thunk to the BIOS... 00:19:20 ehird, yes. But I bet you won't have them ready right away 00:19:55 AnMaster: consider that the entire number of times it interacts with the user until the smalltalk VM is up and running is zero 00:19:58 no input, no output 00:20:01 pikhq, well iirc the first few lines are traditionally done by thunk to BIOS. Like when grub is printing "Loading stage 1.5" 00:20:21 AnMaster: Still no point in it. 00:20:21 uh no 00:20:27 when i was writing my os and printing out lines to the screen 00:20:31 it's just B80000 or something 00:20:38 and you just write to it at y*80+x or something 00:20:39 trivial 00:20:45 Yeah, that's the address of the framebuffer. 00:20:47 line wrapping, a few lines 00:20:50 scrolling, about ten 00:21:06 It's a tiny bit more complicated to actually have non-textual graphics, but even that's not hard. 00:21:14 Writing a couple of things to the VGA registers. 00:21:27 ehird, hm, maybe I misremember that bit then. Still you need to do it for harddisk 00:21:49 ... Yeah, that's called "a bootloader". 00:21:53 pikhq, indeed 00:21:55 how hard can talking to sata be 00:22:10 ehird: Harder than an interrupt. :P 00:22:12 ehird, that I have no clue about. But pretty hard I bet 00:22:18 what with DMA and such 00:22:39 only the most simple HD access is needed until smalltalk is running and loads the full HD driver 00:22:42 which is why you need memory management up 00:22:57 really, every time a system managed to boot we show be overawed. 00:22:59 seriously 00:22:59 AnMaster: DMA is optional. 00:23:01 i need to write memory management as part of the forth 00:23:03 so s'ok 00:23:08 we are used to it working 00:23:15 but it is quite a feat when you think about it 00:23:29 careful! thinking like that turns you into thom yorke. 00:23:36 "thom yorke"? 00:23:39 xD 00:23:44 who/what 00:23:53 famous painter 00:23:55 18th century 00:24:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thom_Yorke <-- wikipedia fails then 00:24:24 never heard of that guy 00:24:29 must be named after him or sth 00:24:40 no disambig link 00:24:48 well he wasn't exactly famous i just like him 00:25:16 ehird, ok. explain that reference though please 00:25:22 as in, what did he paint 00:25:24 or such 00:25:34 that makes me similar to him when thinking that above 00:25:42 it's a reference to his painting Rocks Crushed Over the Sky At Five O'Clock 00:25:55 nice name. 00:26:09 quite 00:26:19 google doesn't turn up anything relevant 00:26:37 just music 00:26:41 :\ 00:26:42 weird 00:27:07 ehird, btw your boot loader. It has to fit in a *tiny* space 00:27:34 no it doesn't 00:27:37 here's my bootloader 00:27:43 jmp ptr 00:27:54 ehird, you need to load something to jump to 00:28:11 so? 00:28:18 that is a bit more :P 00:28:26 asking sata for a KB or so of code 00:28:26 AnMaster: ... Boot loaders are trivial. 00:28:31 pikhq, true 00:28:32 sounds awfully hard! 00:28:35 i could even use the bios. 00:28:37 Seriously, shaddup. 00:28:48 pikhq, I didn't say they were hard 00:28:53 was just trying to scare ehird :P 00:28:56 Especially since you've got a whole block to work with and BIOS interrupts. 00:29:01 And bootloaders don't do much. 00:29:10 and IMO MBR is awful. 00:29:12 i wrote a hello world os in assembly including bootloader following a nice little tutorial thing once 00:29:14 It's a loop that reads a few blocks in and jumps. 00:29:18 didn't understand a lot of the operations but 00:29:21 I've played tic-tac-toe in a bootloader 00:29:24 it was rather trivial 00:29:26 really I want a sane system like PPC+Open Firmware 00:29:27 like a few hundred lines. 00:29:35 AnMaster: whoa whoa don't call that sane, it's just better 00:29:39 ARM + OpenFirmware, even closer 00:29:41 ehird, well true 00:29:48 but until we enter lisp machine territory, we're not sane 00:29:51 PPC is quite nice though 00:29:53 we're just more creatively deranged 00:29:54 ehird: Reduceron? 00:29:55 lots of registers 00:30:02 AnMaster: ARM gives you a free shift in every instruction. 00:30:04 EVERY INSTRUCTION. 00:30:07 I rest my case. ARM is cool. 00:30:15 Also, low heat and low poewr. 00:30:16 power 00:30:27 power requirements, that is 00:30:30 ehird, shift? as in some flag to shift the value by n? 00:30:38 basically. 00:30:52 you can append ; right/leftshift foo to every instruction 00:31:03 without performance penalty 00:31:03 more or less 00:31:13 how often is that useful I wonder 00:31:32 in embedded work? tons! 00:31:33 who cares though 00:31:34 it's cool 00:31:42 fair enough 00:31:59 Anyway, everyone knows the only real sane platform is Itanium/EFI. 00:32:01 -!- ehird has changed nick to crickets. 00:32:03 * crickets chirp 00:32:06 -!- crickets has changed nick to ehird. 00:32:26 Even I hate EFI! 00:32:39 don't know enough about EFI 00:32:47 but Itanium is a cool concept 00:32:49 It's a bloated OS that replaces your BIOS/OpenFirmware. 00:33:00 lol, SGI's Altix 4000 server could have up to 2048 CPUs 00:33:12 i guess someone hacked in one more and had to wait on xkcd's linux patch. 00:33:16 ehird, linux supports up to 4096 iirc? 00:33:26 i'm fairly sure xkcd just made that up 00:33:43 ehird, fairly sure it does support 4096 ones (at least) 00:33:55 cool how it's limited 00:33:59 whereby cool i mean stupid 00:34:11 ehird, "at least" means "maybe not limited" 00:34:15 it used to be limited 00:34:24 in MYYYYYYYYY os, everything like that is a bignum 00:34:31 INCLUDING THE DATETIME CLASS 00:36:22 . 00:41:05 ehird: Everything? 00:41:12 * pikhq is curious how you write lambdas as a bignum 00:41:13 :P 00:41:22 EVERYTHING INTEGERIC 00:41:39 (integeric, adj. When you start to write numeric but realise integral would be better, and want to have some fun.) 00:42:15 hm 00:42:42 ehird: So, in other words: Integral a has one instance: Bignum. 00:42:53 No, not in the low level Forth. :P 00:43:01 ...and not when conversing with hardware. 00:43:13 Well, of course. 00:43:26 That's because hardware's a bitch, and Forth's low-level. 00:43:55 oooh talking with x86 is fun 00:44:03 NO 00:44:06 It is never fun. 00:44:09 you just don't want to know how some structures are packed 00:44:18 pikhq: Forth is so funly low-level. 00:44:32 Have a string on the stack and want to shuffle it? HOPE YOU REMEMBER THEY'RE TWO SEPARATE ELEMENTS IN ONE 00:44:35 God, the pointer in the GDT. 00:45:01 Was that in 3 or 4 different parts? 00:45:23 pikhq, something like that 00:45:24 i gave up on my previous os because of the gdt 00:45:28 it just triple faulted when i set it up 00:45:31 NO MATTER WHAT ;_; 00:45:41 even when i copied it verbatim from the bkdev tutorial 00:45:53 *bkerndev 00:46:00 ehird: I was able to get it down to a single fault! 00:46:06 pikhq: then you gave up? :D 00:46:09 (... By having an interrupt handler) 00:46:13 Yeah. 00:49:27 I decided to never write an OS after seeing the GDT 00:50:29 thankfully, in my OS I only need one segment 00:50:40 set as completely free-for-all 00:51:35 ehird, Linux uses two segments iirc 00:51:39 kernel and user space 00:51:48 i know of no such thing! 00:52:08 The two segments more map to "ring 0" and "ring 3". 00:52:08 I didn't say your OS would 00:52:15 pikhq, well yes 00:52:24 OpenBSD has twice as many segments. 00:52:31 pikhq, oh why? 00:52:32 Read xor execute. ;) 00:52:39 um 00:52:44 AnMaster: It lets them emulate the NX bit. 00:52:48 ah 00:52:57 They split the memory space in half. 00:53:00 W^X, though, not R^X. 00:53:05 pikhq: what a waste of memory! 00:53:06 One side has read/write stuff. 00:53:08 -!- morenel has left (?). 00:53:12 One side has executable stuff. 00:53:15 fizzie, indeed 00:53:20 anyway all RWX ftw! 00:53:21 ehird: That's only one systems without the NX bit. 00:53:27 s/one/on/ 00:53:28 ehird, NX for the win :P 00:53:29 pikhq: still! 00:53:37 AnMaster: Totally unneeded in my OS! 00:53:52 ehird, great for protecting against bugs though 00:53:59 Howso? 00:54:05 You can't read/write to memory directly. 00:54:11 Or execute it. 00:54:13 ehird, for the forth layers 00:54:18 you will debug a lot 00:54:30 everything that helps detect bugs early == a good thing 00:54:43 You know that the Forth layer is expected to be at its most bloated and fullest, say, 10,000 lines? 00:54:48 That's after years. 00:54:56 sure. Still 00:55:03 Anyway, using NX in Forth code would... 00:55:09 Defeat the point. 00:55:12 EXECUTE etc. 00:55:14 Becaues. 00:55:16 *Because 00:55:19 Forth never executes machine code like that 00:55:24 and you can still run anything as a forth word 00:55:31 so it'd only help to catch bugs in the underlying Forth implementation 00:55:35 * AnMaster imagines a x86_128 where NX would be required 00:55:41 and said implementation will be quite short and very low-level 00:55:43 just to annoy ehird :P 00:55:46 In conclusion, NX doesn't help me at all. 00:56:50 AnMaster: How many people need to address 302231454903657293676544 petabytes, anyways? 00:57:13 * ehird looks at his Dyson sphere as a holograph. 00:57:15 pikhq, not yet indeed. I bet it will happen faster than we expect though 00:57:16 Oh... nobody. 00:57:17 brb 00:57:17 (128 is a *very* big number) 00:57:20 back 00:57:21 AnMaster: No. 00:57:28 ehird, I mean, passing 2^64 faster 00:57:39 Ah. 00:57:40 2^128 is probably quite safe due to number of atoms and so on 00:57:57 but 96 bit adressing would be really quite awkward 00:58:10 so I bet they will just jump to 2^128 00:58:17 If one petabyte took up 1 angstrom of space, the whole of 128-bit's address space would be 0.003 lightyears. 00:58:18 brb 00:58:18 better marketing-wise too 00:58:43 Thereby letting you mmap the entirety of the Universe. 00:58:47 If one petabyte took up 1 angstrom of space, the whole of 128-bit's address space would be 0.003 lightyears. <-- amazing :D 00:58:51 pikhq, cool idea 00:59:08 anyway 00:59:21 it is guaranteed future proof 00:59:36 unless we discover multiverse or something 01:00:00 ehird, you still want paging however. To handle swap and such 01:00:57 AnMaster: His entire design implies paging. 01:01:03 good 01:01:06 And having the entire hard drive mapped in memory. ;) 01:01:18 I was fearing he would go for "single page" 01:01:20 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:01:23 which is possible 01:01:26 almost 01:01:34 x86_64 supports 1 GB pages 01:01:39 But that would make it very hard to do object persistence. 01:01:44 pikhq, hm ok 01:02:17 Much, much easier to give objects their own pages that may or may not be on the disk. 01:02:34 pikhq, quite a bit of waste of space there 01:02:43 for small objects 01:02:50 and there will be lots of small objects 01:03:04 AnMaster: And? 01:03:10 hum? 01:03:15 I'm always against wasting 01:03:22 There's a bit of waste for small processes on UNIX, and there's a *lot* of small processes. 01:03:36 It is, in fact, a defining aspect. 01:03:40 pikhq, not quite as many as there would be objects 01:03:53 assuming objects are as fine graded as I understood him 01:04:13 It's about the same waste involved in having a lot of small files on the disk. 01:04:24 ... Nobody even *talks* about that waste. 01:04:33 pikhq, I worry about it 01:04:35 really 01:04:44 I considered a pool system to solve it 01:04:52 You're a freak who still has a sub-1GB drive. 01:04:56 having the disk split in two parts. "large" and "small" 01:05:05 growing from different ends 01:05:19 somewhat like the heap and stack grows from different ends 01:05:24 (traditionally) 01:06:14 pikhq, like having 4 KB blocks at one end, and 1 KB at the other end 01:09:04 -!- coppro has joined. 01:09:28 AnMaster: Freak who has a sub-1MB drive, I meant. 01:09:35 pikhq, :D 01:09:44 pikhq, 350 GB and 160 GB 01:09:45 in fact 01:09:49 also one at 20 GB 01:09:52 on my old p3 01:09:59 Then WHY THE CRAP DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THAT? 01:10:17 pikhq, why not 01:10:43 If you've lost more than 100MB from the waste involved in having a large amount of small files, I will buy a hat and then eat my hat! 01:11:42 bacq 01:12:03 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:12:14 pikhq, I have. By having 16 GB of sub-1KB files. 01:12:19 flightgear scenery 01:12:28 is stored in a horrible format. 01:12:44 one file with altitudes per each 0.1 degrees lat/long iirc 01:12:48 or was it 0.2? 01:12:48 AnMaster: you know what? 01:12:52 something like that 01:12:56 New drives are going to have BIGGER BLOCKS. 01:12:59 Megabyte-range. 01:13:01 >:) 01:13:10 ehird, depends on the file system 01:13:18 no no no 01:13:19 I mean drive level 01:13:41 ehird, maybe. But FS can use less 01:13:50 and that is what matters for space waste 01:14:00 Yes, but it is *absurdly* painful and inefficient to do so. 01:14:00 anyway, I'm wasting space by never deleting anything and revisioning every single change 01:14:06 and persisting generic objects 01:14:12 instead of hand-tinkered formats 01:14:21 pikhq, and megabyte sized blocks is absurd too 01:14:24 for a *nix system 01:14:24 so a big fuck-you-and-buy-a-big-drive, AnMaster :P 01:14:27 no 01:14:28 it's not absurd 01:14:33 yes 01:14:44 well not if you assume gnu userland :P 01:14:50 pikhq: so, let's talk about how AnMaster is a dinosaur 01:15:15 AnMaster: *nix filesystems with large blocks store small files in the inode, IIRC. 01:15:29 Fuck files. Fuuuuuuuuck files. 01:15:30 pikhq, /bin/ls is 108 KB. 64-bit GNU userland 01:15:35 Files are for bedwetters. 01:16:00 AnMaster: please, tell me how many files you have in /bin, /usr/bin and /etc 01:16:02 in total 01:16:16 ehird, not /usr/lib too? 01:16:18 For comparison, /bin/busybox is 976K. 01:16:22 Fine, /usr/lib too. 01:16:37 find /bin /usr/bin /etc /usr/lib | wc -l # *waits* 01:16:52 5907 here. 01:17:15 7908 here 01:17:18 Oh, find. XD 01:17:22 but /usr/share contains lots of small files too 01:17:29 * AnMaster scans it too 01:17:38 4232. 01:17:39 pikhq, what did you do btw 01:17:46 that didn't use find 01:17:49 ls | wc -l 01:17:53 ls -r? 01:17:55 AnMaster: So, if we have 1MB blocks, then your files would take up 7.9GB total (ignoring the larger files which will be rare). 01:18:02 Not -r. 01:18:13 AnMaster: So, a FORTIETH of a modern-sized drive. 01:18:18 Awful! 01:18:18 ehird, waiting for /usr/share which mostly contain small files 01:18:22 Unbearable! 01:18:23 like 2 KB icons 01:18:25 and similar 01:18:27 Including share, I get: 195622 01:18:28 locale files 01:18:36 pikhq, /usr/share still scanning here 01:18:40 all the man pages too 01:18:41 (I install documentation for everything) 01:18:42 and what not 01:18:47 AnMaster: Remember the inode thing. 01:18:47 AnMaster: Clearly you need ext4. 01:18:58 pikhq, I use that on my new laptop 01:19:01 this is on my desktop 01:19:06 *notebook 01:19:08 # find /bin /usr/bin /etc /usr/lib /usr/lib32 /usr/share | wc -l 01:19:08 154035 01:19:14 ehird, um? 01:19:26 I don't install docs for everything 01:19:34 [01:15] pikhq: AnMaster: *nix filesystems with large blocks store small files in the inode, IIRC. 01:19:45 ehird, ... no I meant 01:19:48 *notebook 01:19:51 ehird, um? 01:19:55 Yeah. They're not laptops any more. 01:19:59 ehird, no? 01:20:06 No. 01:20:06 well 01:20:12 I don't use them on my lap 01:20:19 due to well known risks 01:20:21 Hmm, seems Lenovo actually still refers to ThinkPads as laptops. 01:20:23 That's just asking for trouble. 01:20:41 AnMaster: personally I don't care about my sperm, the issue is the comp overheating 01:20:52 ehird, well it is "bärbar" in Swedish. Translates to "carry-able" 01:20:55 admittedly you might need a beefy lap and some hardcore computation to do that, but 01:21:01 or possibly "portable" 01:21:01 AnMaster: that's some low standard for a portable computer! 01:21:06 that's better 01:21:12 ehird, well, literal translation... 01:21:15 is carryable 01:22:19 AnMaster: personally I don't care about my sperm, the issue is the comp overheating <-- not yet. You will in the future I bet :P 01:22:27 when you want to get children yourself 01:22:34 so approximately never then 01:22:35 sorry, it is some biological instinct 01:22:40 so yes it will happen 01:22:44 so is killing animals for food 01:22:49 with your bare hands and some crude tools 01:22:51 have you done that lately? 01:22:52 ehird, I meant, on the level or hormones 01:23:02 ehird: You mean that most people *don't* do that? 01:23:04 the reproduction instinct is on the exact same level 01:23:08 01:23:25 if you don't go out hunting every night armed with barely anything, then you are "denying" your instincts just as much as I do 01:23:29 pikhq: they use guns 01:23:35 you can't make a gun by sharpening a piece of rock 01:23:54 ehird: Sure you can. 01:24:07 It just needs a lot of bootstrapping. 01:24:08 call gates are fun 01:24:14 and obsolete 01:24:27 AnMaster: care to answer me? 01:24:38 ehird, what line 01:24:45 all of the above ↑ 01:24:58 you can't make a gun by sharpening a piece of rock <-- I agree with what pikhq said there 01:25:02 s/ / / 01:25:03 not that part. 01:25:11 pikhq: they use guns <-- true 01:25:16 not that part. 01:25:22 the part where i wasn't talking to pikhq. 01:25:39 the reproduction instinct is on the exact same level <-- hm. not sure about that. I'm pretty sure that the "food" instinct is "get food some way" not "that specific way" 01:25:55 yeah I guess all those neanderthal hunters were just really inventive. 01:26:01 every night 01:26:14 ehird, um. heard about learning? 01:26:21 even animals can do it 01:26:36 Animals such as these Sapiens in particular. 01:26:39 that's totally not my point, but 01:26:47 the fact is that there are plenty of people with no wish to breed at all 01:27:11 just as we don't do just about every other instinct we have 01:27:14 ehird, elks for example. Children follow their mother to learn what is editable and what isn't 01:27:19 seeing what she eats 01:27:26 saw this on some nature program on TV years ago 01:27:32 AnMaster: if it has a read-only switch, it's not editable 01:27:36 "When in doubt, try and steer the conversation to the previous topic." 01:27:51 hahd 01:27:53 typo 01:28:11 http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=Assorted%2FPinkFedoraRot.jpg Is this hat not the gaudiest thing you've ever seen? 01:28:12 GregorR-L: Not just Sapiens. 01:28:21 pikhq: Hence "in particular" 01:28:23 eatable I meant except it isn't spelled that 01:28:24 iirc 01:28:27 Rather than "specifically" 01:28:29 Homo neanderthalensis, notably, was more intelligent that Homo sapiens. ;) 01:28:31 ehird, ^ 01:28:33 AnMaster: so, are you seriously saying that every single human gets the overpowering urge to have children for the rest of their lives? 01:28:37 edible? 01:28:38 yes or no 01:28:40 pikhq: Bigger brain != more intelligent 01:28:44 coppro, yep that's it 01:28:45 pikhq: (Not at that scale anyway) 01:28:52 GregorR-L: Sorry. 01:28:59 ehird, I'm suggesting it is a strong instinct. Not one possible to overcome 01:29:03 GregorR-L: They were demonstrably intelligent, at least. 01:29:12 but harder to overcome than "must hunt food myself" 01:29:12 (tool creation, graves, etc.) 01:29:22 pikhq: Sure. But not demonstrably intelligent enough to build fucking cities, so we kinda win on that one. 01:29:22 just look at the population of the world 01:29:32 before you suggest anything else :P 01:29:32 Does anyone want to snap AnMaster back to reality 01:29:48 GregorR-L: Eh, that's a matter of failing at the ice age is all. 01:30:15 pikhq: Neanderthals were around for longer than we have been around. 01:30:43 pikhq: In all that time they never figured out anywhere near the level of technology we had in some 10K years. 01:30:44 http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=Assorted%2FPinkFedoraRot.jpg <-- wow. is it new? 01:30:45 GregorR-L: Touché. 01:30:48 pikhq: So no, they just f***ing lose. 01:30:55 AnMaster: You're misplacing the urge. 01:31:00 AnMaster: Just bought it :P 01:31:03 The urge is to have sex; the evolutionary intention is for reproduction. 01:31:17 But the urge isn't "I really want some GOD DAMN BABIES". 01:31:22 "GOD. DAMN. BABIES." 01:31:29 ehird, actually there is more to it than that. Do you think a baby crying sounds horrible? 01:31:33 For breakfast. 01:31:39 Yet you see older people that seems to find it cute. 01:31:43 AnMaster: That has nothing to do with actually having babies. 01:31:48 That's to do with once you've got one. 01:31:49 GregorR-L: Do not put the baby on the plate? 01:31:52 Of course there are childrearing instincts. 01:32:00 pikhq: DO put the baby on the plate! :P 01:32:00 There are not fuck-to-make-a-kid instincts; there are fuck instincts. 01:32:03 ehird, that is true. But you are affected by people *around* you having babies 01:32:08 like "wow I want that too" 01:32:13 xD 01:32:16 You're crazy. 01:32:18 I'm not yet at this age. Thank god for it. 01:32:23 AnMaster: I can conclude that you have a uterus from that statement. 01:32:24 or 01:32:24 I don't think the instinct to have sex is "make babies", I think it's "put my penis in that" 01:32:27 "Is that the new Baby 3000?!?!?!?!?!?!" 01:32:31 "Omigosh! I want one!" 01:32:31 ehird, :D 01:32:45 pikhq, no. You can conclude I read too much bilogy 01:32:46 "Hey, wifey! Can I put my penis in you? I want to make a baby 3000." 01:32:49 biology* 01:32:57 Bilogy: It's like biology but full of absolute bilge. 01:33:04 ehird, heh 01:33:09 ehird: No, it's the study of bile. 01:33:13 And nothing else. 01:33:14 :D 01:33:41 Poor bilologists. 01:34:27 pikhq, apparently men feel some sort of "take care of babies" instincts too. Not as strongly though. At least that is what I have heard. 01:34:44 Yes, take care of ALREADY EXISTING BABIES. 01:34:51 ehird, indeed 01:35:14 but see what I said above when you joked about model 3000 01:35:17 now, night 01:35:24 Once you've satisfied your "Let me vigourously move my penis inwards and outwards of this opening" urge, a little thing appears and you have to satisfy your "Let me stop this thing making that noise" urge. 01:35:39 This helps reproduction, but at no stage is the urge "Let me create a thing that makes that noise". 01:37:04 How strong is the paternal instinct in humans? Arguably the two instincts you've presented are by two different people :P 01:37:13 True, yeah. 01:37:32 The point is that males, at least, don't get the urge to make a whiney pooping vomiting thing. 01:37:33 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:38:02 …and thus concluding the argument that I could have one from the start by pointing to a sales chart of condoms. 01:38:06 s/one/won/ 01:38:29 There were some people wandering about Manhattan giving away "Obama condoms" 01:39:07 Sounds... awesome. 01:39:54 As far as I can tell they're PURELY a joke. There is actually no political message at all. 01:39:58 Made me go "8-D" 01:40:10 GregorR-L: That's awesome. 01:43:32 http://www.obamacondoms.com/ 01:43:42 "Who says experience is necessary?" x_x 01:43:49 "For the elitist penis" 01:44:04 http://www.practicesafepolicy.com/ 01:44:05 Oh god 01:44:07 McCain condoms 01:44:14 ;_; 01:44:24 I just died. 01:44:48 http://www.thepalincondom.com/ When abortion is not an option! 01:44:52 That's their actual slogan. 01:45:12 ehird: I presume they come with a hole in them? 01:45:19 :D 01:45:27 pikhq: No, those are Catholic Condoms. 01:45:38 No, no, no. 01:45:57 Catholic condoms allow all the sperm to go through. 01:46:00 After all, every sperm is sacred. 01:46:08 It is a very big hole. 01:48:27 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:26:13 Okay, "kilobit" is now pissing me off. 02:26:16 That's 1000 bits. 02:26:51 kibibit? 02:26:59 (couldn't sleep 02:27:03 will try again soon) 02:27:06 1024 bits. 02:27:15 ehird, what is wrong with that 02:27:30 A kilobit is used to mean 1000 bytes. 02:27:33 kilo- means 1000. 02:27:35 bit means bit. 02:27:37 1000 bits. 02:27:40 bits 02:27:42 not bytes 02:27:42 = 125 bytes. 02:27:43 indeed 02:27:49 ehird, and? 02:27:54 Also, "kilobyte" is not 1024. Kilo means 1000. 02:27:58 why is it pissing you off 02:28:00 Therefore, I am switching to the following unit system: 02:28:10 SI prefixes, including kilo- mean that. The resulting unit means that. 02:28:21 Kibi is the retarded nearest-power-of-2 prefixes. 02:28:25 as well as mebi, etc. 02:28:30 ehird, most people don't use the kibi and such 02:28:37 A byte is B 02:28:38 rather they use the SI ones to mean 1024 02:28:50 Kilo- is lowercase k, just like SI. 02:28:55 1 kB = 1000 bytes. 02:28:59 ehird: Congrats, you're using the *standard*. 02:29:03 Ki is kibi. 02:29:07 1 KiB = 1024 bytes. 02:29:15 AnMaster: actually, most people use 1000 02:29:19 like HD manufacturers do 02:29:49 ehird, well. last I looked windows didn't in the properties window 02:29:54 mind you that was on XP 02:29:58 so it might have changed 02:30:03 Yeah, but most people don't look at that. 02:30:13 Anyway, the difference usually doesn't matter, so those who don't know what it means won't suffer from this. 02:30:21 But from now on, I- 02:30:21 hmm, wait. 02:30:26 I think K is the SI prefix, not k. 02:30:27 Let me check. 02:30:41 ehird, if B is byte, what is bit then 02:30:42 AnMaster: also, note that CPU cycles, ethernet, wireless bands, ... also use the 1000 system 02:30:47 "bit" 02:30:53 kbit? 02:30:59 what about bits per second 02:31:05 is that bits/s 02:31:10 WHAT THE FUCK, SI. 02:31:10 or bps 02:31:14 It's k, but M and G and T. 02:31:17 ehird, :D 02:31:18 THAT MAKES SENSE?! 02:31:29 historical reasons I bet 02:31:31 ehird: K is a unit. 02:31:37 ah that 02:31:42 better reason 02:31:43 pikhq: I know but they do it for h, da, d, c, m, u, n, p, f, a, z and y too. 02:31:54 And everything above k - M, G, T, P, E, Z, Y is uppercase. 02:31:57 SO FUCK THAT SHIT. 02:31:58 Anyway. 02:32:13 ehird, da? 02:32:21 Yes. 02:32:23 Deca. 02:32:23 Ten. 02:32:25 ah 02:32:28 5 decabytes! 02:32:30 h would be? 02:32:41 Hundred. 02:32:43 Hecto. 02:32:46 ehird, 5 decibytes? 02:32:51 or dici? 02:32:54 deci = 0.1 02:32:57 well 02:32:58 dici then 02:33:01 for 1/8 02:33:05 hm 02:33:14 wait no 02:33:26 deca -> dici, deci -> ? 02:33:29 err 02:33:33 we have an issue here 02:33:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix 02:33:38 d and da. 02:33:41 Anyway. kB = 1000 bytes. MB = 1000 kB. GB = 1000 MB. TB = 1000 GB. PB = 1000 TB. And kiB = 1024 bytes. MiB = 1024 kiB. GiB = 1024 MiB. TB = 1024 GiB. PB = 1024 TiB. 02:33:51 err 02:33:52 oops 02:33:57 Anyway. kB = 1000 bytes. MB = 1000 kB. GB = 1000 MB. TB = 1000 GB. PB = 1000 TB. And kiB = 1024 bytes. MiB = 1024 kiB. GiB = 1024 MiB. TiB = 1024 GiB. PiB = 1024 TiB. 02:33:59 there. 02:34:02 :P 02:34:07 When defining new measures, use the non-i versions. 02:34:10 DONE. 02:34:24 just to confuse things. this is not same as SNMP MIB 02:34:53 When defining new measures, use the non-i versions. <-- nop, makes less sense for stuff like ram 02:34:59 Well, yes. 02:35:11 Things that aren't talking directly to silicon. 02:35:17 ah 02:36:33 Pebibyte sure is awkward to say. 02:37:25 http://pastie.org/577068.txt?key=jap84dhxsagpjw0jgks8g 02:37:28 Official standard. 02:37:37 I will now make sure this survives pastie by repeating it in-channel. 02:37:45 The SI-friendly information storage units 02:37:45 02:37:45 1 kB (kilobyte) = 1000 bytes 02:37:46 1 MB (megabyte) = 1000 kB 02:37:46 1 GB (gigabyte) = 1000 MB 02:37:46 1 TB (terabyte) = 1000 GB 02:37:47 1 PB (petabyte) = 1000 TB 02:37:49 02:37:51 1 kiB (kibibyte) = 1024 bytes 02:37:53 1 MiB (mebibyte) = 1024 kiB 02:37:55 1 GiB (gibibyte) = 1024 MiB 02:37:57 1 TiB (tebibyte) = 1024 GiB 02:37:59 1 PiB (pebibyte) = 1024 TiB 02:38:01 Pebibyte sure is awkward to say. <-- don't think so? 02:38:01 02:38:03 anyway 02:38:03 When defining new measures, use the non-bi units whenever reasonable (just 02:38:05 about everything that doesn't talk directly to silicon). 02:38:07 byte is wrong 02:38:07 (END OF FILE) 02:38:09 There. 02:38:11 Now it's done, and I can get on with my life. 02:38:11 since it is 8 bits 02:38:13 So's your mom 02:38:18 we need 10 bit bytes 02:38:23 for the SI ones 02:38:35 like kilobyte and kibibite 02:38:36 :D 02:38:40 no, byte is a fundamental unit 02:38:43 where byte = 10 bits 02:38:56 ehird, less fun :/ 02:40:46 now night again 02:40:55 why sleep 02:40:57 who sleeps. 02:43:13 Your MOM. 02:44:30 -!- ehird has quit. 02:58:49 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 03:02:11 -!- TimMcD has joined. 03:02:28 -!- TimMcD has left (?). 03:05:44 -!- TimMcD has joined. 03:11:45 Hey! 03:12:06 I would like to run an esolang idea by you guys. You up for it? ;) 03:12:27 Presumably. 03:12:40 Would be the first time we've been on topic this week. 03:12:46 Hehe 03:12:47 http://etherpad.com/esolangideas 03:12:48 ^_^ 03:13:17 That's the link to a doc describing the lang 03:13:30 good idea? bad idea? The kind of idea that makes bile rise in your throat? 03:13:51 Fighting pitiful Internet ATM. 03:14:25 mm I'll type some of it our here then. 03:15:21 My idea is based around blocks made up of rows, which are made up of cells. A cell '[]' contains 4 characters, two for the identifier (like classes/types) and two for the method/block identifier. A basic hello world: 03:15:38 [so0][Hello, world!] 03:15:55 so is standard output identifier, 0 being the identifier for the block that prints out the next cell 03:16:09 Rr, sorry, its actually 03:16:19 [so0][c0][Hello, world!] 03:16:22 I see it now. 03:16:24 c0 is a generator for strings 03:16:26 Ah ok 03:17:29 Not awful, but quite interesting. 03:17:36 Refreshingly unique semantics. 03:17:37 ;) 03:17:40 ^_^ 03:18:03 Groovy, thanks! 03:18:26 I feel like there needs to be a betterway to generate strings 03:18:44 I was thinking of somethign like: 03:18:45 [c0][H][e][l][l][o]... 03:18:57 But that would make it even harder to read 03:19:01 and be a pain to type out 03:20:14 any suggestions? 03:20:24 None ATM. 03:20:39 Bit distracted ATM. 03:20:43 GregorR-L: Þou? 03:28:33 すめません、えごがわかりまsか? 03:31:37 Who else is looking ati t? http://etherpad.com/esolangideas 03:32:21 -!- TimMcD has quit. 03:45:31 Woooh patience? 03:45:40 So anyway, rule 90 tie: http://www.zazzle.com/rule_90_tie-151155765045023221 03:51:46 -!- coppro has joined. 03:52:02 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:59:28 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:35:43 -!- TimMcD has joined. 04:35:50 Hello! 04:35:58 Anyone here? 04:36:18 possibly 04:39:50 Collapse the probability wave. 04:40:12 -!- coppro has left (?). 04:42:18 pikhq, haskell AND esoteric languages I see. 04:42:32 http://etherpad.com/esolangideas , any thoughts? I understand that string handling could be/should be better... 05:00:16 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 05:22:10 -!- TimMcD has left (?). 05:40:23 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:20:52 -!- oerjan has joined. 06:30:07 -!- coppro has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:16 Who else is looking ati t? http://etherpad.com/esolangideas <-- if only it loaded 08:03:29 maybe it needs javascript 08:18:38 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 08:36:25 AnMaster: it does 08:36:35 meh 08:38:39 it's pretty neat, actually 09:16:59 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:25:46 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:50:45 http://etherpad.com/ep/pad/export/esolangideas/latest?format=txt 09:57:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:29:12 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:52:24 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 11:04:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:15:21 -!- Judofyr has joined. 11:21:38 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:02:43 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:25:34 -!- FireFly has quit (Connection timed out). 12:38:34 -!- Judofyr has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:40:16 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:43:03 -!- FireFly has joined. 13:22:41 -!- Slereah has joined. 13:25:57 -!- Judofyr has joined. 13:30:22 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 13:37:37 -!- M0ny has joined. 13:48:18 -!- oklopol has joined. 13:48:21 glio 13:49:25 -!- Pthing has joined. 13:49:49 Pthing: i had a dream about you 13:49:55 :X 13:50:00 i think i was angry at you for some reason 13:50:05 but i couldn't talk. 13:50:50 fascinating 13:51:02 terribly 14:09:08 -!- ehird has joined. 14:09:43 hello vagabonds! 14:10:16 ehird: obviously there aren't any here, you didn't get a reply 14:10:26 vagabonds are very humble/secretive, pick one 14:12:08 20:42:18 pikhq, haskell AND esoteric languages I see. 14:12:17 how I sarcastically read this: 14:12:22 brainfuck AND esoteric languages I see. 14:12:58 haskell has many of the good points of an esolang, whilst actually being practical 14:13:00 no wonder we like it 14:13:07 00:03:29 maybe it needs javascript 14:13:07 i look forward to the day where every web page requires javascript, just to see you demand all links start with gopher:// 14:13:19 ? 14:13:24 replying to AnMaster 14:13:40 well, I think people should use gopher to serve up the Javascript for HTML pages 14:13:47 it's funny because etherpad is actually a neat and useful thingy 14:13:57 (it's gobby, but online so you can just throw someone a link) 14:16:43 (although it wasn't too good until recently due to being slow; it got better when the makers decided to focus on it instead of the web application backend thinamagic they built it on) 14:20:33 -!- M0ny has quit. 14:20:52 plop 14:21:45 Sb 14:21:49 wat 14:22:09 ehird: it's a chemistry pun 14:22:13 Sb = anti-M0ny 14:22:41 >_< 14:22:46 how likely is it that anyone would get that? 14:22:53 pretty low, I imagine 14:23:40 but I've been waiting months to make that pun 14:23:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:27:06 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 14:28:41 "this morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US department of energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the national weather service of the national oceanographic and atmospheric 14:28:44 administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the national aeronautics and space administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US department of agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the food and drug administration." 14:28:49 — http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/98rob/seriously_rnc_oh_its_on_now/c0btuoq 14:29:09 Pfft, the free market can do that. 14:29:19 With magic. 14:30:31 (Funny how such a good comment is followed in two steps by: "tl;dr, but upvoted and made this comment so that I can come back tomorrow after I've had a good night's sleep.") 14:31:04 (Six paragraphs, one is very short (being the title), two are short.) 14:31:17 (Maybe we should just start prescribing ritalin to *everyone*.) 14:40:48 ehird: You've got to give libertarians *some* credit. ... I can't come up with any reason why. 14:41:50 They are advancing stupidity research! 14:42:46 they made snow crash possible? 14:42:52 There we go. That's what I was looking for. 14:43:01 Snow Crash - some definition of possible 14:43:15 i meant the writing of it 14:43:34 What, did they take away all of his state-given resources or something? 14:43:36 And this gave him superpowers? 14:43:47 no, it's just 14:43:51 without libertarians 14:44:00 he wouldn't have had the anarchocapitalist setting 14:44:06 ehird: Hmm. Well, *one* actual thing about libertarians: they take what the Republicans *claim* to be in support of and actually *support* it. 14:44:07 good! then we wouldn't have as many shitty books 14:44:19 That is, they're at least *honest* about what they believe. 14:44:38 Ain't much, but it's something. 14:50:00 * ehird lols that yourworldoftext.com uses repeated ajax requests instead of comet 14:50:07 Didn't people learn from the counter? 14:51:29 Y'know the major problem that "ZOMG FREE MARKET" people have? An ideal free market is like an ideal gas: it doesn't *exist*. It's just a useful model. 14:52:01 pikhq: No, no. 14:52:05 It's made of magic and fluffiness. 14:52:13 That's why, if you try and touch it to make it better, it turns into rage itself. 14:52:16 And kills everyone. 14:52:23 No matter how small the change. 14:52:26 DUH. 14:52:30 ehird: So, what you're saying is that, if you get rid of all governments, it all magically works? 14:52:39 "Hooray"? 14:52:40 No, you need a government to guard the free market, duh. 14:52:48 Also to enforce property! 14:52:54 a completely free market would fail because people dislike immigrants 14:53:04 ais523: ok, *that's* ... a new one 14:53:07 without free migration you can't have a free market 14:53:08 So, the government would do... Half of what the retards dislike. 14:53:15 have i missed several steps of logical deduction or are you on crack 14:53:19 pikhq: precisely! 14:53:23 (antitrust regulation) 14:53:24 because otherwise you don't have a free market in labour 14:53:29 pikhq: nooo who said antitrust 14:53:33 pikhq: they just stop other people interfering 14:53:34 :P 14:53:43 ehird: Right, antitrust. 14:53:44 ;) 14:53:55 pikhq: that's far too indirect for the libtards to understand! 14:53:56 ehird: there's only about half a step of logical deduction there 14:54:25 speaking of idiotic economics, I am going to carefully consider any PBA suggestion that doesn't come from BobTHJ :-P 14:54:47 AIEE 14:54:48 "My goal is to slowly continue to add information to my database until 14:54:48 the full state of Agora is tracked." 14:54:52 Kill him! Kill him with FIRE! 14:54:57 ...okay, I'm done 15:01:05 DIE DIE 15:21:06 sigh https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-intel/+bug/359578 15:21:17 ehird, guess what chipset I have? :D 15:21:26 yes that one 15:21:34 Gee, I was going to guess "not that one". 15:22:01 it seems like an interesting game though 15:30:18 ehird, btw I found a rather odd software. A train driving simulator. 15:30:52 sounds... riveting 15:31:00 drive from both ends at once and rip it in two! 15:31:20 ehird, well, there was only one supported train in the version in ubuntu at least. 15:31:25 and it was a single ended one 15:31:32 http://openbve.trainsimcentral.co.uk/ 15:31:57 btw, 3D graphics ran smooth of the laptop, but cpu fan ended up working at highest speed. 15:32:15 unsurprising 15:32:24 physics calculations? 15:32:30 that is my best guess 15:33:28 * AnMaster builds warzone2100 using gentoo portage. better gpu on there :P 15:33:41 AnMaster: not better gpu 15:33:43 better drivers 15:33:56 the gpus should be somewhat equal 15:34:04 ehird, hm I wonder how much video memory the intel one has... 15:34:13 as in. dedicated. Not shared main memory 15:34:23 0 15:34:38 AnMaster: what model is it? 15:34:40 GMA what 15:34:42 well. the gerforce 7600 has 512 MB RAM 15:34:43 iirc 15:34:47 or was it 256 15:34:48 not sure 15:34:49 anyway 15:34:53 ehird, well lets see... 15:35:50 Intel Corporation Mobile 4 Series Chipset Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 07) is all lspci says 15:36:01 what mobo chipset 15:36:24 * AnMaster uses lshw 15:36:33 * ehird uses a duck 15:38:08 closest I can find is "host bridge"... hm 15:38:35 which is "Mobile 4 Series Chipset Memory Controller Hub". Lots of details in that... NOT 15:38:52 Oh, just tell me what laptop you bought. 15:38:56 R500 integrated? 15:39:00 oops, *notebook <_< >_> 15:39:11 R500 yes. *looks for specific model number* 15:39:20 doesn't matter 15:39:24 they only offer one integrated gpu 15:39:27 on it 15:39:31 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:40:04 AnMaster: GMA 4500MHD. It can use over 512MB of your RAM if you want. 15:40:14 ehird, right. 15:40:40 ehird, main memory has to compete bandwidth with CPU though 15:40:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 15:40:57 as in, both graphics and programs running on CPU will use the same memory 15:40:58 shruggggggg 15:40:58 \ 15:41:03 *drop that line 15:41:09 oerjan, hi! 15:41:18 hi all 15:44:22 oerjan, the joke in IWC was quite awful today, don't you agree? 15:44:43 i may, eventually 15:44:54 darth and droids more than made up for it though :D 15:45:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:45:41 :D to iwc 15:47:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:49:03 -!- jix has joined. 15:54:25 * oerjan once again finds himself pausing instinctively for Comments on a Postcard to finish loading 15:54:48 (dammit) 15:54:50 :D 15:55:06 http://armorgames.com/play/4309/this-is-the-only-level this is great 15:56:03 i tried it a bit yesterday 15:56:33 i think i got to the dreaded pink strip level 15:56:40 *stage 15:56:47 lol@stage 13 15:57:01 don't tell me that's a game 15:57:01 no wait that wasn't it 15:57:05 because i opened it 15:57:05 oklopol: it is 15:57:07 oklopol: it's one level 15:57:09 over and over again 15:57:10 but different 15:57:14 it's the fun 15:57:23 different how 15:57:34 oklopol: try it and see. 15:57:43 i time. 15:57:46 *in 15:57:52 i gave up at that level "arrows" that treated the mouse (trackpad in my case) as arrow keys or something 15:58:06 oerjan: easy 15:58:10 also, *stage 15:58:13 stage 15 has me stumped 15:58:16 argh 15:58:40 i expect it would be easier with a genuine mouse 15:58:47 eh 15:58:50 you just have to go left and right 15:58:52 easy 15:59:05 well and click 16:00:51 My time was around 7:40 IIRC (did it yesterday) 16:01:01 what, for all of it? 16:01:07 Yes, all of it 16:01:08 I'm on stage 15 and 8 minutes in... 16:01:13 how do you do stage 15 16:01:15 i'm desperate! 16:01:18 it's the time to refresh one 16:01:18 Which one is it 16:01:23 the button does nothing and there's a green plank 16:01:23 Refresh... 16:01:28 You know, F5 16:01:33 ... x_x 16:01:44 JAVA GAMES ARE AN UNTRESSPASSABLE SANDBOX 16:01:48 THIS IS MY MENTAL MODEL 16:01:48 err 16:01:50 FLASH 16:02:22 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:02:25 hey it reset to 5 minutes 16:02:26 uber cool 16:02:57 does it get hard at some poine? 16:02:58 *point 16:02:59 Heh, I guess it can't count the time you spent on level 15 :-) 16:03:01 or at least interesting 16:03:03 oklopol: No 16:03:08 And not really 16:03:16 oklopol: Yes 16:03:20 It is fun. 16:03:32 and it's not hard per se 16:03:34 how many levels are there? 16:03:35 but you have to think a little 16:03:37 It's an amusing design but not /really/ interesting 16:03:37 dunno 16:03:38 over 30 16:03:42 30 IIRC 16:03:42 but each one takes like 10 seconds 16:03:55 ah 16:04:15 hmm 16:04:18 how does stage 18 work... 16:04:20 the collapsing one 16:04:20 ohhhhhh 16:04:23 you go on top of right 16:05:58 okay, i managed to do something very clever on "time to refresh" 16:06:26 what? 16:06:29 i refreshed. 16:06:31 :D 16:06:38 that's 16:06:40 that's what you're meant to. 16:06:42 click continue 16:06:46 oh. 16:06:49 xD 16:06:52 yeah confused me too 16:06:59 right, right 16:07:09 i just assumed it wasn't the correct thing to do 16:07:19 Thank the foo it was that short. 16:07:31 I have to finish my thesis today, and there are still 42 TODO comments in it. 16:07:48 :D 16:07:48 Recommendation: shut off IRC 16:07:52 nooooooooooo 16:07:58 anyway stage 24 is the odd 16:08:11 Oh, it's probably the crap 16:08:17 wat 16:08:18 Which one was 24 again? 16:08:21 Or one of them 16:08:27 UPPERCASE 16:08:33 Yeah 16:08:46 Ah. Well, it wasn't that odd. 16:08:53 LOL CAPSLOCK 16:08:58 Though I did try shift first. 16:09:04 DITTO 16:09:31 what's the idea of "mime's folly"? 16:09:38 oklopol: mimes 16:09:40 you know when they like 16:09:42 make fake objects 16:09:43 with their hands 16:09:45 and they look real 16:09:47 and press 16:09:56 (basically there's an invisible wall.) 16:10:08 It's pretty possible not to notice the wall, though. 16:10:20 One level was annoying without QWERTY, I forget which one it was 16:10:26 fizzie: not imo 16:10:33 Deewiant: center keyboard 16:10:34 Deewiant: The "middle keyboarder" or some such. 16:10:41 Yes, I forget the number 16:10:48 It used TFGH, right? 16:11:08 yes 16:11:13 oh lawd@28 16:11:55 that was fun 16:12:04 11:57:62.5, 63 deaths 16:12:05 :P 16:12:15 With my layout those are FETH... could have been worse, but still 16:12:50 (I.e. those are in the respective places of FETH on a QWERTY) 16:13:53 Anyway, just in case you aren't aware there are other games featuring the elephant 16:13:55 meh now I've addicted myself to flash games again 16:13:58 http://armorgames.com/play/1719/elephant-rave 16:13:58 Deewiant: there ARE? 16:14:01 http://armorgames.com/play/2893/achievement-unlocked 16:14:02 i love that guy already! 16:14:06 Possibly others 16:14:11 i mean i loved how it was just... an elephant 16:14:12 for no reason! 16:14:15 http://armorgames.com/play/3102/run-elephant-run 16:14:26 I think that's it 16:14:40 Achievement Unlocked was somewhat amusing 16:15:00 wow elephant rave is x_x 16:15:28 okay god that was pointless 16:15:53 holy hell oklopol 16:15:56 try achievement unlocked 16:16:41 Incidentally, there was one elephant-themed 4k intro. It wasn't in the "serious 4k" category, but people still voted for it: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=53606 16:16:42 that was like completely the opposite of what kind of games i like, i want to think inside the box, and have complex puzzles 16:16:57 achievement unlocked is like this is the only level + 34785345873485478583745 16:16:59 and this was the other way around 16:18:42 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 16:19:20 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:21:18 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:23:56 so there are only 34785345873485478583746 levels? how frugal. 16:24:00 Welp, managed that in 501 seconds and only had to check one hint 16:24:34 I've done it before though, so it doesn't quite count 16:24:34 oerjan: :D 16:25:17 80% done in 400 seconds, but I'm not going to try any time-trialings. 16:25:24 And my thesis! You bastards! 16:25:25 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:25:33 fizzie: :D 16:25:42 I maintain my recommendation 16:25:57 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:26:04 hee, i jumped top-right and killed myself like 5 times on the spike 16:26:06 century 16:26:07 score 16:26:47 I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly 16:27:30 `addquote I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly 16:27:31 Based on the horizontal and vertical confusions, I hope total confusion is not "all direction keys at once", since I don't think I can get it with this keyboard. It's not, right? 16:27:31 64| I spent the last minute or so killing myself repeatedly 16:27:38 :-P 16:27:44 fizzie: No, it's not 16:27:48 Good, good. 16:28:31 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:28:43 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:29:12 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:29:19 -!- bsmntbombdood has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 16:29:28 * oerjan was going to suggest someone ban fizzie, but then... 16:29:43 -!- bsmntbombdood has joined. 16:29:58 is liftoff 3-2-1-fly up? 16:30:10 No 16:30:16 3-2-1-0-fly? 16:30:19 No 16:30:22 k 16:30:39 lament: please kickban fizzie. it's for his own good, he has a thesis to finish. 16:32:37 Deewiant: how come 0-1-2-3-4-5 doesn't get that 16:32:44 i can count to 5 16:32:54 Get what 16:32:56 Liftoff? 16:33:02 "I can count to 5!" 16:33:19 Maybe you messed up and hit something twice 16:33:32 nope 16:34:30 hm i must have 16:34:31 got it now 16:34:44 890 seconds. Please stop with the elephants. 16:35:21 I wonder why all those squares hide you 16:35:26 fizzie: 1167 16:35:50 you still have http://armorgames.com/play/1719/elephant-rave and http://armorgames.com/play/3102/run-elephant-run to play, anyway! 16:36:12 I tried, but they seemed to be more skill-based. 16:36:20 Can you even "finish" them? 16:36:25 That does not EXCUSE YOU 16:36:25 Yes, they end 16:36:30 See? 16:36:37 Still not "gonna". 16:39:26 what's programmer's credit 16:39:31 0-2? 16:39:36 Type the name 16:39:50 that turned my elephant pink. maybe i mistyped. 16:40:02 oh, must have been a different number 16:40:54 what's speedy downfall :P 16:41:29 Opposite of escape velocity 16:41:33 oh, lol, the numbers change elephant colour 16:41:41 so i must have done jmt02 or something at first 16:42:30 yay i did speedy downfall 16:42:30 95% 16:43:10 must be something with that orange starting point 16:45:07 Meh, I'm stuck 16:45:15 Deewiant: what's the seat thing 16:45:22 Seat thing? 16:45:54 get off your seats 16:46:17 Oh, that's the one I had to lookup 16:46:27 There /is/ a hint button, you know 16:46:37 I know, but I might see other ones. 16:46:50 #32: Get Off Your Seats = Jump for 10 seconds nonstop 16:48:27 Uhh, it told me I entered the contra code 16:48:28 But I didn't. 16:48:46 I think it just needs UUDDLRLR 16:48:58 i did that in another app i think maybe 16:48:59 by mistake xD 16:49:08 so konami code right 16:49:10 contra confused me 16:49:24 Deewiant: too much free tiem is completion right 16:49:25 *time 16:49:28 Yep 16:49:36 so I just have to liftoff 16:50:42 ehh 16:50:54 oh 16:50:56 5 4 3 2 1 0 16:51:00 so i was on the right track 16:51:02 you could have told me 16:52:41 2091 seconds 16:52:42 done 16:52:44 thank fucking god 16:53:47 Palin makes me ashamed of my species. 16:54:00 assassinate her 16:54:31 No. I intend to convince biologists that there are two extant subspecies of Homo sapiens. 16:54:42 Homo sapiens sapiens, and Homo sapiens stultus. 16:54:45 haha run elephant run is fun 16:54:52 pikhq: no, homo sapiens sapiens and homo spaiens palin 16:54:55 *sapiens 16:55:08 ehird: Stultus covers more than Palin. 16:55:28 :P 16:58:52 run elephant run on easy was uh 16:58:53 not easy 17:01:02 * oerjan discovers to his surprise that pikhq is _not_ mangling latin there 17:01:29 * oerjan then swats ehird for doing exactly that -----### 17:01:38 :( 17:01:42 you're so horrible to me. 17:01:44 * ehird cries 17:02:18 oerjan: My roommate studied Latin for 4 years in high school. 17:02:35 Mangled Latin makes him wince, and it's starting to make *me* wince. 17:02:51 hooray! 17:03:32 Hooray indeed. 17:03:39 * oerjan expects to be hit by Lex Muphriensis on the matter soon 17:03:43 yesterday (well, today) i walked around town barefoot at 3am :D 17:04:00 it was fun 17:04:53 in the weekend? i'd be worried about broken beer bottles... 17:05:09 actually, the streets were all smooth 17:05:20 a few little pieces of glass here and there but perfectly walkable 17:05:34 also warm and very quiet 17:06:08 clear sky, too; I swear if I looked above in just the right way I could see the earth's curvature :P 17:12:46 huh, i just realised there's no "random video" button on youtube 17:13:19 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 17:14:02 hmm, you could simulate it 17:14:15 go to all the videos linked easily from youtube pages, go to every one of the related and same person ones in random order 17:14:19 for like half an hour 17:14:25 then just use your now fucked up recommendations 17:15:20 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:18:07 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:26:09 3d glasses are amazing 17:27:06 US military expenditures: $623 billion. Rest of the world combined: $500 billion. 17:27:09 I'm going to go be sad now. 17:27:18 wait, combined? 17:27:23 i didn't know it was that bad 17:27:26 Yeah. 17:27:56 This... Is sheer madness. 17:28:10 And no, it is not Sparta. 17:28:46 look on the bright side of it. even with _that_ expenditure, they got trouble with Iraq + Afghanistan. 17:29:29 That's because guerilla warfare > organised warfare. 17:29:39 discovery: drinking while wearing 3d glasses is hard 17:29:41 (see: most revolutions) 17:36:28 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 17:37:21 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:43:54 why does Wikipedia's preference page want to know my gender :\ 17:44:12 ehird: it's for languages other than English 17:44:18 so they can use the right form of words like 'the' 17:44:23 Optional: used for gender-correct addressing by the software. This information will be public. 17:44:35 ais523: are you sure it isn't "he/her" or something? 17:44:48 ais523: anyway, that's monumentally stupid; why does it need to be PUBLIC? 17:44:54 that's how it could be relevant in English, but IIRC it comes up a lot more elsewhere 17:45:00 and it's public because it's shown to other people 17:45:05 why? 17:45:13 as in, even something as simple as "user contributions" could change depending on the gender of the user 17:45:18 in various foreign languages 17:45:24 ah 17:45:25 and that's in the sidebar, for everyone 17:45:35 and I thought English was genderist 17:46:12 ais523: what does it do if you leave it unspecified? 17:46:16 and why can't it do that for everyone? 17:46:18 no idea 17:47:09 I bet it does something stupid, like assume the user is male or something 17:47:20 given what I know of MediaWiki, that wouldn't surprise me in the least 17:48:00 wait till they find out that some people consider themselves neither! we'll get two sliders 17:48:04 maleness and femaleness 17:48:07 and they have to add up to 100 17:48:13 from that, it randomly weights which to use 17:48:24 isn't engineering wonderful 17:50:06 one slider, obviously; the bit to one side is maleness, to the other side is femaleness 17:50:18 that way, the shape of the UI enforces the add up to 100 17:51:02 ais523: that's an interaction designer solution! 17:51:13 ? 17:51:15 actually the engineers would probably expose the two as text boxes 17:51:28 nah, as query-string parameters 17:51:30 ais523: I'm joking as to how the engineering mindset would solve the problem of "but what about people who aren't either?" 17:51:46 and you haven't even considered furries yet... 17:52:01 oerjan: don't furries have a gender? 17:52:02 no, furries don't think they're spiritually animals; that's otherkin 17:52:09 and they still, presumably, have a gender 17:52:11 surely that depends on species 17:52:21 I don't think there are ameoba otherkin 17:52:21 anyway, I know that the Guild (which is responsible for the Guild Council I mention sometimes) recognises at least 7 genders 17:52:31 ais523: err... which ones? 17:52:35 they're rather strong on equal opportunities and political correctness 17:52:42 please don't tell me they think transgender is a gender in itself 17:52:47 -!- ehird has left (?). 17:52:50 -!- ehird has joined. 17:52:51 oops 17:53:12 ehird: male, female, transsexual male, transsexual female, transgendered male, transgendered female, and indeterminate 17:53:21 * ehird facepalm 17:53:28 we would not want to engender a transgression here 17:53:34 Transgendered male; also known as "female". (Or "male", depending on which way aroudn it is). 17:53:38 *around it is.) 17:54:10 And transsexual male/female, also known as female/male (or, again, male/female). 17:54:27 In conclusion, that list is identical to "male, female, indeterminate". 17:54:46 ehird: they installed gender-neutral toilets, so as to be able to give a set of toilets that people in the five less common genders could go into without arguments 17:55:01 BUT FOUR OF THE "LESS COMMON GENDERS" AREN'T GENDERS! 17:55:14 :P 17:56:07 * oerjan just has to mention the gender neutral pronoun h'orsh'it he recently saw somewhere 17:58:07 ais523: just to confirm, if someone is a transgendered male-to-female and then has a sex change operation, even though their legal documents say female your university still glasses them as transsexual male/female? 17:58:14 *classes 17:58:16 forever 17:58:17 weird definition of politically correct 17:58:30 ehird: the distinction between transsexual and transgendered is whether there's been a sex-change operation or not, IIRC 17:58:45 -!- jix has quit ("Lost terminal"). 17:58:46 ais523: I know that; read my line again 17:58:49 that isn't what I asked 17:59:11 someone who was a transgender male-to-female and then had a sex change operation is a transsexual, but their gender isn't "transsexual female", it's "female" 17:59:14 ehird: well, there are biological differences... 17:59:26 ais523: it's a list of genders 17:59:28 not a list of sexes 17:59:36 anyway, you don't want to go into how many sexual orientations they recognise, I don't actually know myself but it's a lot 17:59:59 heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual? :P 18:00:10 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 18:00:11 unless it's non-sex/gender orientations too 18:03:19 don't forget pansexual 18:03:30 pans are hot 18:03:49 Asztal: but pansexuality is just a kind of bisexual imo 18:04:06 also on wp, polysexual: "Polysexuality refers to people who are attracted to more than one gender or sex but do not wish to identify as bisexual because it implies that there are only two binary genders or sexes." 18:04:12 that, for instance, is just a qualm with the name 18:04:15 not a different position 18:04:19 i do not recommend sex with hot pans 18:04:21 i think pansexuality is pretty similar 18:06:03 Dear Wikipedia, 18:06:09 When I said "use MathML when possible", I meant that. 18:06:23 We clearly have very, very different definitions of "possible". 18:06:33 ehird: it's probably to do with what's possible for MediaWiki 18:06:36 which is probably not a lot 18:06:38 ais523: "6 ! = 1 \times 2 \times 3 \times 4 \times 5 \times 6 = 720. \ " 18:06:54 Yeah, totally impossible. 18:07:00 oh, and there are actually semi-official guides telling you how to force things to render as images not HTML 18:07:04 * ehird tries purging 18:07:06 so that all the equations in an article look the same 18:07:17 err, how do you purge again? 18:07:19 ?action=purge does nothing 18:07:31 ais523: ... MediaWiki's math rendering is... TeX... 18:07:35 it's ?action=purge, which if you're logged in appears to do nothing 18:07:44 pikhq: no, it's some custom format that thinks it's TeX, IIRC 18:07:54 I think they use real LaTeX nowadays 18:07:56 ais523: OK, it must be a bug of some sort; "0! = 1 \ " renders as an image 18:08:00 ais523: ... They don't actually use TeX? MURDER. 18:08:10 pikhq: TeX doesn't do pngs. 18:08:20 it looks very like TeX, but it's less powerful, presumably to prevent people writing infinite loops into the code of the document 18:08:28 pikhq: Do you, incidentally, use pdftex? 18:08:30 That's not TeX, either. 18:08:36 XeTeX? Hehehehe 18:09:02 ais523: ah, hmm 18:09:07 maybe MediaWiki knows that Safari doesn't do MathML 18:09:10 ehird: There's the TeX program, and there's the TeX language. 18:09:11 ;) 18:09:13 an overly clever definition of "possible" 18:09:20 ehird: adding spacing commands like "\ " is the recommended way of forcing non-html iirc 18:09:28 oerjan: MathML. 18:09:29 Not HTML. 18:09:36 oerjan: IIRC, you use negative-width spaces, to really force non-HTML 18:09:43 ah 18:09:43 and people put that in the articles 18:09:49 so all the equations look the same 18:09:53 thus defeating the point of the preference 18:11:11 * ehird removes \ in a user space copy 18:12:21 The page "User:Ehird/sandbox" (links | delete) has been moved to "User:Ehird/Sandbox" (edit | links | revert | log) 18:12:58 ais523: indeed, removing "\ " fixes it 18:13:26 does MathML have a code for "space added specifically to stop this rendering as anything but an image", I wonder? 18:14:01 18:14:14 grr, there should be a way to delete your own user subpages 18:14:30 I now have a useless vector.css link being added to every page 18:14:36 ehird: put {{db-user}} on them 18:14:46 and an admin will delete it pretty quickly, those are really noncontroversial 18:14:54 Fuck violations of the law of least surprise. 18:14:57 should be automatic, grumble 18:15:02 ehird: that would be abusable 18:15:05 ais523: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ehird/vector.css 18:15:08 well that worked. 18:15:10 rename a popular article into your userspace, then delete it... 18:15:25 also, so don't allow renaming a popular article into your userspace 18:15:34 pikhq: i bet that'll surprise them 18:15:35 the work required to put it back is the same as undeleting 18:15:48 what if you created it in the first place, and it came from your userspace? 18:15:51 oerjan: actually, I find I still gullibly trust computers to work as I expect 18:16:08 ais523: ugh, i don't care; but templates aren't being expanded 18:16:09 ehird: it's in CAT:SD anyway 18:16:10 could you delete it? 18:16:14 it's the fluoride in the water 18:16:16 OK 18:16:18 I just checked 18:16:22 just the category doesn't render on the page 18:17:00 * ehird considers redesigning vector in userspace and then hax0ring wikipedia to set it for everyone 18:20:56 I find it somewhat perverse that water flouridisation is not common in Colorado Springs... 18:21:09 Don'tcha now they can control your mind through that stuff. 18:21:15 (... water flouridisation was discovered there, because natural water sources there have flouride.) 18:21:31 Ah. 18:21:34 xD 18:21:41 pikhq: Dude, do you know what that means? 18:21:45 GOD is controlling our minds. 18:21:52 well, why would they add it if it occurs naturally, duh 18:22:00 oerjan: he was joking 18:22:02 oerjan: They take it *out*. 18:22:05 ........ 18:22:07 What. 18:22:44 ehird: They have to take some of it out, though; the amount of flouride in the water supply mottles the teeth. 18:22:51 STILL! 18:22:54 ... They just take *all* of it out. 18:23:14 I thought it was pregnant women who were hurt most by overflouridation 18:23:39 I know because there was a row about it here in the UK a couple of weeks ago, a water company was putting far too much flouride in and ignoring their own warning mechanisms 18:25:10 ais523: It deforms the bones of babies. 18:25:19 And mottles the teeth of all. 18:25:27 right, that's it; I'm mocking up a design of Wikipedia that doesn't involve information clutter, showing things you don't need, unexcellent typo… you know, negating this list made it awkward. 18:25:33 pikhq: sounds awesome 18:26:00 Overflouridisation is t3h suck. 18:26:14 ehird: you'll find that more or less every link on a typical Wikipedia page is either needed by someone, or the WMF insist on it 18:26:26 ais523: not the pages, the chrome 18:26:34 and besides, I can hide the ones not needed at the moment 18:26:38 I'm talking about things like the links around the edges 18:26:40 and nobody can stop me using it as a user CSS 18:26:55 ais523: right, there's absolutely no need to have them like that at all, I can assure you 18:27:08 (wow the pdf version thing is slow) 18:27:16 (it's at 1% for a tiny article) 18:27:22 well, certainly as an admin, being able to hit things like user contribs, block, etc, in 1 click is highly useful 18:27:33 oh, it went from 1% to 100% 18:27:38 ais523: oh, absolutely 18:27:42 number of clicks is important in case you're doing it in something like 50 tabs in parallel, a ribbon wouldn't really work for that 18:27:47 i'm not a very good designer but i'm not an idiot 18:28:00 besides, admins do obviously have different needs than users 18:28:35 nah, because non-admins do adminny work too 18:28:42 at least, they're supposed to 18:28:50 they don't block people 18:29:05 mass reports to AIV have happened in the past 18:29:18 although if it gets too over-the-top, ANI is generally a better choice 18:30:05 I'm mainly interested in something I can read without wanting to gnaw my eyes out, and secondarily something I can do brief editing and administrivia to quite easily 18:30:31 maybe there could be a "I'm going to stay in the house for a few months editing" button :P 18:30:36 that enables monobook 18:31:04 "I hate it when errors on the main page got reported in the wrong place and they got fixed pretty quickly, then my properly placed error reports on WP:ERRORS get ignored." 18:31:09 do you think they realise? 18:31:41 realise that people have used the main page since the stone age and will do so forever? and that thus they have to check both places, thus slowing them down? 18:31:53 it's almost enough to make a man nominate WP:ERRORS for deletion 18:32:03 user contributions is a useful function 18:32:10 ehird: it's to do with watchlisting 18:32:18 Talk:Main Page tends to be rather fastmoving 18:32:20 if somebody makes one stupid error, if you see their user contributions, they usually make lots of them 18:32:23 and you can laugh at them 18:32:27 so if you report an error there, an innocuous change might be next there 18:32:28 ais523: but they check it anyway to complain at them! 18:32:31 and hide the watchlist entry 18:32:40 so they're already doing that hard work 18:32:53 ehird: it'll be slower, manually checking as opposed to just having a watchlist entry 18:33:09 ais523: I'd be fine if Talk:Main Page had a subsection called Errors, with a link "add one" that edits the included template page 18:33:17 I thought it did 18:33:20 oh no, my fans just spinned up 18:33:25 or have people changed their minds again? 18:33:28 ais523: it does, but it's in the header 18:33:31 and it doesn't include the error page 18:33:48 people who would report it in talk:main page don't know about the + button, but they DO ignore headers and warnings like everyone else 18:33:57 if it looked like a subsection with a big "Add one" link, it'd be used 18:34:53 "Wikipedia is a free content encyclopedia written by a global community of volunteers. Sometimes, false information is added to Wikipedia. Do not trust information in Wikipedia - use additional references" 18:34:54 — Mobile Wikipedia 18:34:59 they should replace Wikipedia's disclaimer with that 18:35:41 the WMF would go crazy 18:35:47 but then, they do anyway 18:36:20 it's funny that encyclopedia dramatica is run more smoothly and with less drama than wikipedia 18:37:54 hmm, [[Wikipedia]] isn't an FA 18:37:56 heh 18:40:21 * ehird redesigns around [[Barack Obama]] 18:40:38 under the assumption that it's a relatively normal article and is obviously well-maintained 18:40:44 although it's unusually long... 18:41:38 ehird: The whole cult-of-personality thing. 18:41:50 pikhq: what in particular? 18:42:17 Obama you mean? 18:42:24 ehird: ... There's quite a few people who seem to think that Obama is the second coming or something. 18:42:28 yeah 18:42:28 Half of that article is probably devoted to rebutting the birthers 18:42:31 though 18:42:32 :P 18:42:51 for a more objective source 18:42:52 http://conservapedia.com/Barack_Obama 18:42:55 where are thse people, pikhq 18:43:06 it seems like a good republican talking point 18:43:07 "allegedly[1][2][3][4][5] born in Honolulu" 18:43:22 haha wow Obamunism xD 18:43:30 but the only people i saw get really knicker-wetting joyful over Obama was during the election 18:43:42 and huge parts of that were "hooray bush is gone forever" 18:43:56 OR IS HE 18:44:02 yes he is 18:44:59 see, what if Palin is actually Bush 18:44:59 Pthing: It has at least cooled off, yes. 18:45:01 consider it. 18:45:17 It was horrid during the election. Now, it's at least a few silly people. 18:45:32 whereas whole scads of the Right must have had a terrible buttock rash for all eight years 18:45:36 What scares the shit out of me is the Palin followers. 18:46:14 It surprised me just how rapidly those people went from EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE, YOU'VE GOT TO RESPECT THE PRESIDENT to HE'S NOT A REAL PRESIDENT, ALL AMERICANS DISSENT AGAINST THE PRESIDENT 18:46:15 like 18:46:25 I wasn't politically aware when Clinton was in 18:46:36 so all along I thought they actually *believed* that 18:46:38 Are you familiar with doublethink? 18:46:47 sure, I felt stupid when it happened 18:47:07 but really it was amazing how rapid the turnabout was 18:47:13 yeah, absolutely 18:47:23 Republicans have a very simple belief system: the corporations are right. 18:47:33 That's unfair. 18:47:34 one day was "Well if the President wants to wiretap and uh and kill some terrists and stuff then you have to accept it because WE THE PEOPLE ELECTED HIM" 18:47:35 What's good for the people screwing us is good for us. 18:47:36 next day 18:47:40 It's entirely accurate, but it's unfair. 18:47:45 "Maybe if someone uh ASSASSINATED him that'd be okayyyy?" 18:47:48 It's accurate because that's how it's been set up 18:47:55 pikhq: ais523 came up with a wonderful way to understand republicans 18:47:56 but the manifestation is more complicated than that 18:48:12 if you take it as axiomatic that bad things happen to people because they deserve it, the republican platform makes perfect sense 18:48:12 Pthing: Obviously. Even simple things are complex. 18:48:15 and the democrats are insane 18:48:43 ehird: Except that they claim that that axiom is from the Bible. 18:49:03 and as we all know, the bible is axiomatic because it says so! 18:49:08 There's very few things that are axiomatic in the Bible. ;) 18:49:25 i like the part where jesus pretty much revokes everything 18:49:36 Best part, IMO. 18:49:39 "Hmm... don't you think these rules are a bit stringent on the masses? Will they BUY this stuff?" 18:49:44 "...you're right." 18:49:51 "But we can't just GET RID of it all! That's our BACKSTORY!" 18:49:55 "Fuck that shit. Be good to each other. 18:49:58 " 18:50:00 "Well... just put some sort of note about all the stuff before it being false, kay?" 18:50:02 "Sure thing." 18:50:05 *THOUSANDS OF YEARS LATER* 18:50:13 ehird: and there is also the part where he claims he isn't changing a single letter of anything 18:50:17 "Fags will burn in hell!" 18:50:29 oerjan: the part about clams was allegory, man 18:50:42 clams? where? 18:50:46 oerjan: He claims rather that the law was in fact intended to end. He's not changing it, he's the succcessor to it. 18:50:49 ;) 18:51:01 pikhq: couldn't god just have made humans not stupid fuckers at the start and given them the perfect law? 18:51:08 just sayin' 18:51:17 he could, but we didn't want it 18:51:24 that's his fault! 18:51:26 he designed us 18:51:36 to within certain tolerances 18:51:48 he's fuckin' omnipotent, what's his problem 18:51:54 his problem is he was lonely 18:51:55 he did fine with the rest of the universe 18:52:04 and wanted to create something that could love him back 18:52:12 Pthing: but he could just change metareality so he wasn't lonely! 18:52:20 he'd have known the difference 18:52:28 but he never metareality he liked! 18:52:34 he wouldn't simulate having someone who loves him 18:52:43 he'd just make it so that the concept of "god is lonely" is objectively false 18:52:54 god can't trick himself like that 18:52:55 the man's smart enough to create a universe. 18:53:02 that kind of logic is for created things 18:53:14 Pthing: congrats, you just reminded me why I hate arguing with religious people 18:53:21 i'm going to go put my head in a blender now 18:53:35 well man it's not a hard idea, and it even works here 18:54:05 but that was just the pre-starter argument! 18:54:05 you can put it this way, he's omniscient, so he'll know he fucked with his own mind 18:54:18 it'd be about five years until i got to the main course 18:54:21 *have been 18:54:36 Pthing: the universe is just fucking with his own reality. 18:54:57 how? 18:55:20 >_< 18:55:22 what else is it? 18:55:30 ... THEY ACTUALLY THINK WEATHER UNDERGROUND IS A TERRORIST GROUP. 18:55:35 FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU 18:55:40 "universe" and "reality" are both words to describe Creation 18:56:25 pikhq: I wouldn't say terrorist, but "the group conducted a campaign of bombings through the mid-1970s, including aiding the jailbreak and escape of Timothy Leary" 18:56:43 In 1970 the group issued a "Declaration of a State of War" against the United States government, under the name "Weather Underground Organization" (WUO). The bombing attacks mostly targeted government buildings, along with several banks. Most were preceded by evacuation warnings, along with communiqués identifying the particular matter that the attack was intended to protest. For the bombing of the United States Capitol on March 1, 1971, they issued a commun 18:56:57 iqué saying it was "in protest of the US invasion of Laos." For the bombing of The Pentagon on May 19, 1972, they stated it was "in retaliation for the US bombing raid in Hanoi." For the January 29, 1975 bombing of the United States Department of State Building, they stated it was "in response to escalation in Vietnam."[5] 18:57:12 ehird: Oh, so they actually have justification for the term. 18:57:23 Yeah; that, at least, is not one of their crazier statements. 18:57:24 In other words, not complete craziness, just hyperbole. 18:58:11 I find it amusing that they think is a radical, communist liberal. 18:58:27 ... How many communists do corporate welfare, exactly? 18:59:15 *Obama/he 18:59:19 You missed a wordy word 18:59:43 Right. Sorry. 19:00:07 ... Obamunism. 19:00:21 And they think that his policies will lead to a second Great Depression. 19:00:22 Yes. :D 19:00:24 Obamunism! 19:00:32 What, like... Now? 19:00:37 Before he got in office? 19:01:05 And... They think he's muslim. 19:01:13 Good Lord, people. 19:01:58 And they think he's actually mind controlling people. 19:02:10 WHY ARE PEOPLE SO MOTHERFUCKING CRAZY. 19:02:17 THIS IS WHY WE CANT HAVE NICE THINGS. 19:02:18 D': 19:02:22 and BobTHJ believes a good portion of all this! 19:03:07 "Obama tries to downplay his Islamic background by claiming that his Kenyan Muslim father was a "confirmed atheist" before Obama was born, but in fact less than 1% of Kenyans are atheists, agnostics, or non-religious." 19:03:11 As we all know, 1%s don't exist. 19:03:23 It is significantly more plausible to claim that there are aliens coming down to earth on a regular basis. 19:03:32 -!- oklopol has joined. 19:03:37 there are aliens coming into the country on a regular basis, at least 19:03:43 why does everyone forget what "alien" actually means... 19:03:45 ais523: From outer space. 19:04:05 ais523: Die, prescriptivist! 19:04:10 ? 19:04:24 what was there to ? about 19:04:25 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_prescription 19:04:30 Mexico is also a space 19:04:32 Alien doesn't mean that, 19:04:37 because people don't use alien to mean that, in general. 19:04:39 and it's outside the US 19:04:42 (unless the context is obviously immigration) 19:04:56 i'm a prescriptivist 19:05:00 Anyways. At least claims regarding aliens sometimes are regarding unexplained situations. 19:05:04 oklopol: no you're not 19:05:11 oerjan: i so am 19:05:21 It's at least possible to say "We don't know WTF that is, it might be aliens." 19:05:24 oklopol: no way 19:05:34 oerjan: yes uhhuh 19:05:46 But... Obama being Muslim, and from Kenya? There is a huge amount of evidence against it. 19:06:01 pikhq 19:06:02 they don't care 19:06:04 oklopol: not a chance 19:06:12 they're just scared racist shits 19:06:14 ehird: Oh, right. They hates logic. 19:06:24 oerjan: i'm totally a prescriptivist 19:06:26 they can't attack his policies convincingly, so they attack him 19:06:28 They refuse to believe that they are wrong. 19:07:03 [[Obama alleged Saddam "has developed chemical and biological weapons" but was willing to condone the most hideous use of torture[124] from a man who "butchers his own people."]] 19:07:15 Of course, if Saddam wants to waterboard, that's just fine, now, isn't it? 19:07:22 Because bullshit is easier to argue against than reality. 19:08:10 oerjan: this is where you say "incredibly not" 19:08:51 ehird: Anyways. If these idiots were European, they would be voting for the Nazis. 19:08:57 oklopol: no it isn't 19:09:02 The crazies are everywhere. 19:09:04 pikhq: they do. 19:09:08 oerjan: it so was 19:09:08 It's called the BNP. 19:09:18 ehird: ... Yes, that was my point. 19:09:20 and i'm leaving now, so i win 19:09:22 -> 19:09:22 Right. 19:09:51 oklopol: that's just what you are saying 19:10:04 You know what's funny? Britain is not that much more left-wing than the US, and yet even our right-wing party fully supports universal healthcare and even a lot of privacy. 19:10:10 The US is just insane. 19:10:44 Anyway, Conservapedia's Atheism article used to start with a picture of Hitler. 19:10:50 There's no point even trying to understand or rebut them. 19:11:38 ehird: ... Wasn't Hitler nominally Christian? 19:11:46 More than nominally. 19:11:54 yay, now it has Marquis de Sade 19:11:57 Unless you ask "conservatives". 19:12:51 pikhq: "hitler was not an atheist / was a christian" articles kept showing up on reddit all the time 19:13:24 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 19:13:25 probably still there in /atheism which is no longer on the main page (last i looked) 19:13:28 the fun part of /r/atheism is that it only makes any sense if you believe conservative christians are reading it 19:14:08 ehird: ah so you think it's mostly crap too? 19:14:14 who doesn't 19:14:39 I don't even remember what site this /r/foo stuff refers to :P 19:14:44 reddit 19:14:48 Oh yeah. 19:14:53 That's why it's all bullshit. 19:15:00 the top two links in /r/atheism right now, 19:15:04 interesting fact: Hitler was commonly believed to be male 19:15:07 GregorR-L: was mentioned the line before you entered 19:15:09 "My new hobby. Leaving atheism themed books on display model ebook readers. This one is at Target." // real productive! have you got a life yet? 19:15:15 second: 19:15:17 "To all those who post the repetitive "This is a circle jerk..." to /a/atheism. Getting in the middle of a circle jerk and opening your mouth actually makes it "Bukkake"." 19:15:18 ohh 19:15:21 you're so witty 19:15:23 ZINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG 19:15:34 you totally rebutted that guy, now get back to jerking everyone else off. 19:15:39 in conclusion, something 19:15:40 ehird: That... Is a truely dumb sub-reddit. 19:15:47 Your spelling is truely dumb. 19:15:50 ehird: ah yes there was a great comment quote yesterday, let me see if i can find it 19:16:08 Anyway, a subreddit for atheism isn't an inherently bad idea; it's just that this incarnation is worthless. 19:16:27 ais523: i'm pretty sure hitler was male :P 19:16:28 (probably impossible) 19:16:36 ehird: see what I mean? 19:16:46 ais523: are you metatrolling :D 19:16:52 GregorR-L: We got here from discussing Conservapedia's article on Obama. 19:16:52 I never metatroll I didn't like/ 19:16:56 s/\/$/./ 19:16:58 pikhq: Bahahahah 19:17:12 SECRET MUSLIM COMMUNIST KENYAN ZOMG KILLING AMERICA! 19:17:13 But he's not an atheist, he's a muslim! :P 19:17:39 Have they added any new "Muslim" "evidence" since last I checked? 19:17:51 Almost certainly! 19:18:09 Hey, maybe Conservapedia is part of Obama's socialist eugenics program. 19:18:16 anyway, I retroactively invoke Godwin's Law on someone or other, I don't particularly care who 19:18:21 all the conversation since then never happened 19:18:29 Anyone who makes a non-satiric edit to Conservapedia won't be allowed to breed when the program comes into place. 19:18:36 And their existing babies will be harvested for food. 19:18:46 ais523: Probably about when we claimed that they would be voting for Nazis if they were in Europe. 19:18:55 don't Conservapedia claim that they'll sue vandals? 19:19:02 ais523: also, anyone who swears 19:19:06 http://conservapedia.com/Conservapedia:Commandments 19:19:12 "Everything you post must be true" 19:19:17 I don't even want to visit that link, the URL is scary enough 19:19:19 "must be family-friendly, clean, concise, and without gossip or foul language" 19:19:22 found it: http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/98sg3/please_stop_spamming_the_main_reddit_with_your/c0bu3p4 19:19:24 "When referencing dates based on the approximate birth of Jesus, give appropriate credit for the basis of the date (B.C. or A.D.). "BCE" and "CE" are unacceptable substitutes because they deny the historical basis. See CE." 19:19:26 ... A plausible claim, when you look at the nationalist parties (that are also ZOMG SOCIALISTS, if US opinions are to be believed) 19:19:32 and finally 19:19:33 Minors under 16 years old use this site. Posting of obscenity here is punishable by up to 10 years in jail under 18 USC § 1470. Vandalism is punishable up to 10 years in jail per 18 USC § 1030. Harassment is punishable by 2 years in jail per 47 USC § 223. The IP addresses of vandals will be reported to authorities. That includes your employer and your local prosecutor. 19:19:46 the rest are rather boring apart from 19:19:46 ooh 19:19:51 "Do not post personal opinion on an encyclopedia entry." 19:19:52 wait, how do they know who your employer is? 19:20:04 ehird: Without gossip? I'm afraid to make an edit following that, I would have to replace the articles with Wikipedia. 19:20:05 ais523: Professional stalkers! 19:20:16 also, haven't they just made an unfulfilable promise if you vandalise it when unemployed? 19:20:22 pikhq: also true, also without personal opinion 19:20:32 ais523: Unemployed people have no money. 19:20:36 Their parents kick them out as soon as they can get a job. 19:20:40 So, they don't have internet. 19:20:40 ehird: Like I said, Wikipedia. 19:20:46 Or maybe selections of Uncyclopedia. 19:20:48 Only True Americans who work can access Conservapedia, and they have jobs. 19:21:10 19:21:34 wikipedia needs a level above featured articles 19:21:39 like Super Featured Articles, there's only 10 at once 19:25:15 there's the main page featured article 19:26:30 ais523: that's not a particularly good featured article, though 19:26:32 just a random one 19:26:55 not random, there's a featured article director who plans the featured articles on each day ages in advance 19:27:21 ais523: Raul has said he just picks them randomly iirc 19:27:38 not always, they tend to be on appropriate days 19:27:45 and some are left out due to being inappropriate for the main page 19:27:46 that's just sometimes, though 19:28:01 anyway, point is, they're not picked for being really good FAs 19:29:22 * oerjan checks on a hunch whether "pornography" is a featured article. but alas. 19:36:55 "I have over $100,000 of software in my saddlebags. We’re sending a release to about twelve customers. […] I reach the counter with a few minutes to spare, and off the packages go. Declared worth, about ten bucks each; it’s just duplicated disks and photocopied manuals after all." 19:37:05 Never before has someone so succinctly make a point they weren't trying to. 19:37:16 *made a point, maybe. 19:38:39 -!- CESSMASTER has quit ("☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃☃"). 19:39:09 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/98zwt/hypothetical_situation_if_someone_were_walking/ ← $0 due to the inevitable legal results being something in the vicinity of $infinity 19:40:19 http://fragsworth.com/audio_functions/1988/ amazing 19:42:50 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 19:42:58 pikhq_: http://fragsworth.com/audio_functions/1988/ 19:43:23 *Thank* you, oh glorious Internet, for dropping connections at the drop of a hat. 19:43:54 omg, it has videos too 19:43:58 I will never sleep again 19:45:55 * ehird tries to make a rotating checkerboard 19:46:04 <3 19:46:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Connection timed out). 19:46:51 so 19:47:25 so 19:47:27 how would you transmit text to a human at 1000 7-bit characters per minute? 19:47:34 (without using eyes) 19:47:53 bsmntbombdood: ethernet cable :P 19:48:01 sex? 19:48:16 bsmntbombdood: well let's say a word is five letters 19:48:24 so 200 wpm 19:48:31 i'm sure you could learn to hear at 200wpm 19:48:49 won't work 19:48:54 has to be able to do source code, etc 19:49:03 make up a language, obviously 19:49:24 do you think you could understand chorded electrical shocks? 19:49:33 no, I'd be too busy screaming 19:49:50 ... 19:51:00 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 19:51:19 -!- pikhq has joined. 19:53:25 actually 19:53:32 how fast can one of those braile displays go? 19:53:44 human's the bottleneck there 19:54:03 bsmntbombdood: well my knowledge has a bit of a blind spot there 19:56:03 hurp durp 19:58:28 o 19:58:34 k 19:58:50 o 20:01:05 so 116 b/s, might be close to human peak listening speed 20:02:02 bytes per second? 20:02:04 xD 20:02:33 ? 20:02:38 oklopol: 116 bytes a second? 20:02:42 how can we possibly listen that fast 20:02:46 that's about 14B/s 20:02:54 oklopol: so 116 b/s, 20:02:54 you could have a different tone for each byte 20:02:57 oh bits 20:02:58 not bytes 20:03:15 well yes, that's the one place where you need to care about caps 20:04:29 actually there are others, such as m vs. M prefix 20:04:41 i just say bit 20:05:00 oerjan: much less confusing though, also for bits, not at all so 20:06:22 anyway i'd say the actual used information content per english character is about two bits, by that random estimate you'd need about 20 words per second 20:06:38 which contains another random estimate of 5 characters per wordds 20:06:39 *word 20:07:08 a letter is 5 bits isn't it 20:07:20 err, yes 20:07:25 that doesn't really mean much 20:07:29 you said 2 bits 20:07:44 sdhgjhaerw takes about an hour to explain, abababababa takes about a second to say 20:08:02 ehird: compressed size 20:08:25 sdhgjhaerw is only about two syllables, much quicker to say than abababababa 20:08:35 Deewiant: crazy finns 20:09:02 Not really, I just think "sdhgjh" is quite compressible 20:09:16 ehird: that would be crazy georgians, i don't think finns could pronounce that 20:09:16 yeah the estimate is based on current best compression 20:09:40 but i've heard 1 bit per character is how much a human needs, no idea what that's based on 20:09:58 anyway need to go again 20:10:55 oklopol: i've heard that too. 20:12:09 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:12:25 ummmmmm so actually everything sucks, did you heard 20:12:57 ah there are unit differences too 20:13:05 s = second, S = siemens 20:15:07 ehird: that is a matter of some gravity 20:15:18 fuuuuuuuuuck youuuuuuuuuu oerjan 20:15:45 what, did i cause an accident? 20:16:58 http://fragsworth.com/video_functions/781/ 20:35:07 -!- pikhq has joined. 20:36:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:53:15 bsmntbombdood: attach things to their fingers that move them as if they were typing the text. 20:53:31 that only gets you 100wpm 20:53:35 you need 200wpm 20:57:48 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 21:13:56 it would be nice if it was passive and hard to see 21:14:13 you know, like electrodes across your belly or something 21:14:43 what exactly are you doing 21:15:25 cool, you can print a book on the fly from an arbitrary set of wikipedia pages; with greyscale images 21:15:28 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/PediaPress_Books_-_interior_2.jpg 21:15:47 ehird: nothing 21:27:56 So, what's the purpose of this, again? 21:29:20 oklopol: I think that's based on people's ability to predict the next letter of a sentence, given a dictionary. 21:30:06 ehird: That's pretty cool actually ... 21:40:42 -!- ehird has quit. 21:41:17 -!- oerjan has quit ("The purpose of a purple porpoise"). 22:08:40 -!- ehird has joined. 22:08:45 GregorR-L: it is cool! 22:09:29 I wonder how many books it'd take to get all of articlespace 22:09:49 How are book prices calculated? 22:09:49 The cost of a book depends on the number of pages contained in addition to a base fee. 22:09:51 helpful 22:09:57 A single book has a maximum size of approximately 800 pages. If a larger book is ordered, it is automatically split up into multiple volumes. 22:09:58 hee 22:10:29 so about 2500 books 22:10:32 assuming 1 page/article 22:10:40 which knowing how large some articles are and how short others are, seems fair 22:11:26 still, less than $55 for 800 pages 22:11:49 much less it seems, 819 = $37.76 22:12:00 lol http://pediapress.com/books/show/bdsm/ 22:16:16 http://pediapress.com/books/show/nothing/ 22:16:23 A good use of $21.92 + shipping 22:19:38 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 22:25:30 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:26:32 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 22:29:57 -!- timmcd has joined. 22:30:05 Hello people! 22:30:56 Hi! 22:31:07 Who brought you from #haskell? :-P 22:31:12 pikhq, I suspect you. 22:31:16 Actually 22:31:21 No one ;) 22:31:35 Huh, unpossible. 22:31:38 Just filtered the freenode.net channels for one pertaining to esoteric languages. 22:31:41 There are too many combined Haskell/esolang lovers :P 22:31:45 lol 22:31:49 timmcd: I'm surprised you could tell we're about esolangs with the topic 22:32:01 We're http://esolangs.org/ 22:33:40 ah ok 22:34:03 So, hi. 22:34:04 -!- pikhq__ has joined. 22:34:08 ehird / anyone else: http://etherpad.com/esolangideas 22:34:12 pikhq__: fix your damn net 22:34:13 Think that looks allright? 22:34:16 timmcd: Ooooh you're that guy 22:34:24 I don't associate new names for a few days 22:34:27 Idk if that's good or bad, ehird... 22:34:34 I just saw you in the logs :P 22:34:37 Ah ^_^ 22:34:41 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:34:53 I want as much feedback as I can get ;) 22:37:40 timmcd: It looks basically like assembly with an odd syntax and convenient types/IO, which is better than most people's first language :) 22:39:15 lol... thanks? 22:39:32 Hey, we can't go praising people's first languages, what with how many we get on the wiki. 22:39:39 :P 22:39:43 yeah, too true. :D 22:40:17 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:40:31 pikhq: I'll buy you an internet pipe. 22:41:04 ehird: No point. I'll have real Internets in a couple weeks. 22:41:14 I can't wait that long. 22:47:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.5.1/20090715094852]"). 22:48:56 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:51:21 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 22:54:30 -!- pikhq__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:59:51 -!- timmcd has quit ("Leaving."). 23:05:06 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:17:50 -!- comex_ has joined. 23:18:02 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:20:14 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:20:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:37:11 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 23:43:43 so let's try to not try for three lines after this 23:48:54 ok let's try a little more than that 23:51:01 Hahah. 23:51:35 i'm very pleased with this moderate amount of trying 23:51:41 ~fin~ 23:52:11 Todo list 23:52:51 [X] Find out if we're marginally funny in any way 23:52:51 [ ] Make a bot that lets us turn this into comics in a line 23:52:51 [ ] Attain internet infamy 23:52:59 it worked for jerkcity 23:57:17 ehird: please explain the joke 23:58:01 mycroftiv: as i said, it worked for jerkcity. among the various things that jerkcity lacks lies "jokes" 23:58:21 i dont know what jerkcity is, i need that part of the joke explained 23:58:44 http://www.jerkcity.com/ 23:58:57 the only microsoft comic chat-created IRC comic that's been running since 1998. 23:59:02 and that features dongs. 23:59:10 (at least I hope there aren't others) 2009-08-10: 00:00:09 someone has been doing this for 11 years? well, the amount of effort involved does look pretty minimal, i suppose a whole years worth of this material is producible in about an hour 00:00:33 mycroftiv: Less. 00:00:38 you may have seen the guy who made it's blog (http://www.randsinrepose.com/) around the interwebs 00:00:42 it has some fairly popular posts 00:01:01 You only really need to dump IRC into comic. 00:01:03 but yeah, I'm fairly sure they just sit in an irc channel 24/7. 00:01:14 pikhq: facial expressions too i think, although that could just be good synchronicity 00:01:41 oh, and perhaps grouping lines into panels 00:01:48 * pikhq notes that Parsec makes most parsers seem trivial 00:01:49 and making sure that characters are in panels even when not talking 00:01:57 but it could just be automatic 00:02:28 it's obviously very hit and miss though, http://www.jerkcity.com/jerkcity3931.html made me laugh 00:02:41 but quantity beats quality for sufficiently large values of quantity! 00:02:59 Meanwhile, I cannot does HTTP. 00:03:01 i laugh pretty easily, but i didnt laugh. 00:03:27 well i basically never laugh but i smirked 00:03:27 "Isn't, like, dropping connections at random a *good* thing?" 00:03:51 i think it's spigot's expression in the last panel that did it 00:04:20 -!- comex_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:08:22 does anyone know of any real organized effort to create an 'encyclopedia of the internet and internet history'? something that infuriated me about wikipedia a long time ago was the idea on the part of many editors that the internet was somehow low-status and unimportant and the culture of the internet itself was un-encyclopedic 00:09:37 encyclopedia dramatica. 00:09:45 and I'm absolutely serious. brb 00:09:47 Encyclopedia Dramatica. 00:09:53 ugg, i hate ED with extreme prejudice. 00:11:10 i say this basically because i regard it as the work of the people who 'ruined 4chan' with teenage attitude basically ripped off of maddox and seasoned with additional nihilism. 00:21:29 -!- ehird has quit. 00:27:14 well, ED's primary goal to chronicle internet history, but with an extra obsession of internet drama 00:27:33 encouraging it, idolizing it and creating it 00:29:57 regardless, there's definitely a need for a more scholarly approach to the topic 00:31:06 "So, what is your hobby?" "I am an internet anthropologist." "lolololololol" 00:31:17 ..u.u 00:31:40 "Ah, the AOL lol repetition. I thought that everyone had forgotten that." 00:32:29 -!- pikhq has quit ("leaving"). 00:36:14 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:37:28 -!- ehird has joined. 00:37:33 16:11:10 i say this basically because i regard it as the work of the people who 'ruined 4chan' with teenage attitude basically ripped off of maddox and seasoned with additional nihilism. 00:37:36 "ruined 4chan" 00:37:38 you lose 00:38:11 Uh. ... There was something to ruin about 4chan? 00:38:29 nostalgia shines everything 00:38:53 I thought it had always been a desolate wasteland of memes of ill taste, weird porn, and the occasional Anonymous uprising. 00:39:51 i read the start of the original 4chan thread once, was fun 00:40:08 esp. when moot got all emo and said something along the lines of 00:40:18 "you'll see in the news about the 11 year old that killed himself" 00:40:19 brief pause 00:40:21 "oh wait i'm 13 now" 00:40:25 (seriously, he said that) 00:40:33 then the forums exploded with "lol 13" 00:40:45 original 4chan thread as in on Something Awful 00:40:58 ... moot was how old? 00:41:21 13 00:41:25 in 2003 when 4chan started 00:41:29 Thought so. 00:41:41 That explains a lot. 00:42:06 night 00:42:32 man 00:42:35 grep is dumb 00:42:40 so's your mom 00:42:51 time grep -i -> 1m49.705s 00:43:01 time grep 0m0.829s 00:43:20 bsmntbombdood, disk cache? 00:43:23 no 00:43:32 i'm not that dumb 00:43:37 kay 00:43:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 00:44:17 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:44:19 RTS are rather annoying. 00:44:26 well, matter of taste... 00:44:46 ugh 00:44:51 bsmntbombdood, ? 00:44:53 fgrep does it in 2 seconds 00:44:57 that's just bad programming 00:45:13 try a non-gnu grep? 00:45:14 bsmntbombdood, fgrep is a wrapper for grep on most GNU/Linux systems 00:45:18 grep should be doing boyer-moore on fixed strings no matter how you invoke it 00:45:22 AnMaster: god you're an idiot 00:45:30 ehird, ... it is 00:45:42 grep, grep -i, fgrep 00:45:44 it is a two line shell script 00:45:50 that invokes grep -F 00:45:58 wow, you're really fucking retarded, you're proving my point here 00:46:00 aaaaaaanyway 00:46:03 ehird, no I'm not. 00:46:08 bsmntbombdood: gnu grep is probably using a lameo exponential algo http://swtch.com/~rsc/regexp/regexp1.html 00:46:10 AnMaster: right, but it obviously uses a different algorithm 00:46:10 AnMaster: Uh, no. 00:46:15 bsmntbombdood, that is true 00:46:17 Seperate binary. 00:46:22 Not even a symlink. 00:46:24 CLEARLY bsmntbombdood WAS BENCHMARKING GREP -F VS FGREP 00:46:27 ls -l `which fgrep` 00:46:28 ;) 00:46:30 even though he didn't mention grep -f! 00:46:31 pikhq, depends on what GNU/Linux you use 00:46:37 ehird: only exponential on diabolical regexes 00:46:38 Gentoo GNU/Linux. 00:46:46 bsmntbombdood: yes, but slow always 00:46:50 ehird: i am searching for fixed-length strings 00:46:54 bsmntbombdood: i know 00:46:58 you didn't say anything stupid 00:46:59 boyer moore is the best algorithm, period 00:47:02 With two different md5sums. 00:47:07 ofc 00:47:08 pikhq, indeed it seems so there. was checking on my arch system 00:47:11 i was talking about grep -i time 00:47:27 * mycroftiv tries to grep the log to see what the grep everyone is grepping about 00:47:46 :D 00:48:48 night really 00:49:58 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:50:11 -!- pikhq has joined. 00:51:16 I think I am going to hunt down my ISP and kill people there. 00:51:21 god me too 00:53:31 i would be happy if the isp i'm eventually going to switch to has nice fibre optic 00:53:36 so i can't complain about isps too much. 00:54:56 I would be happy if my ISP did not drop connections at random. 00:55:04 i need moar bandwidth 00:55:14 and less latency 00:55:17 pikhq: just forward everything through ssh 00:55:23 I need an execution squad. 00:55:30 64 bytes from google.com (74.125.45.100): icmp_seq=1 ttl=54 time=555 ms 00:55:30 bsmntbombdood: the internet actually gets something like half of the maximum possible latency 00:55:34 w/ the speed of light 00:55:35 ...okay, not that 00:55:38 but with a good connection 00:55:56 http://www.stuartcheshire.org/rants/Latency.html 00:56:11 i want to connections 00:56:22 one super low latency, medium bandwidth one for web, irc, ssh, etc 00:56:29 * ehird connections 00:56:33 and another with like up to 10 seconds of latency 00:56:37 with super duper bandwidth 00:56:39 for bittorrent 00:56:40 there's no need to separate them 00:56:41 no conflict 00:56:51 bsmntbombdood: also bittorrent is p2p 00:56:55 so that latency will fuck you up 00:56:59 not really 00:58:06 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 00:58:08 ehird: actually, the best studies ive seen of modern day internet latency show that the effective latency at the application level tends to be a lot worse, because the problem is that at the application level, your total latency is determined by the *worst* latency of the group of packets involved in an application level operation 00:58:21 yeah 00:58:32 I'm just saying that you can't make a CONNECTION massively less latencyful 00:58:47 remember that page was last updated 2001 00:58:47 very true, speed of light is a lot more of a practical limit than people realize 00:58:49 so we might be even closer 00:59:17 mycroftiv: which is why voip uses udp 00:59:21 mycroftiv: I realised that when I learned that in the worst case, the speed of light limits communications to mars at something like 22 minute latency 00:59:26 best case like six minutes 00:59:34 and i was just like... well fuck space colonisation 00:59:56 LOL 01:00:00 ehird: Works quite a bit better with lunar colonisation. 01:00:05 Couple seconds latency. 01:00:19 TCP/IP does not scale to the solar system :P 01:00:19 ehird: its funny you say that, i think reasoning along those lines is actually the best resolution to the fermi paradox of extraterrestrial life 01:00:19 bsmntbombdood: why are you lolling 01:00:22 pikhq_: is it fast enough for video chat? 01:00:31 GregorR-L: I'm... not talking about TCP/IP. 01:00:33 Not going to be playing any FPSes, but should be doing fine. 01:00:36 GregorR-L: I'm talking about the speed of light. 01:00:44 Unless you have a magical protocol that goes faster than light. 01:00:50 GregorR-L: why not? 01:00:52 mycroftiv: yeah, ditto 01:00:55 >_< 01:01:00 Ansible! 01:01:04 GregorR-L: ? 01:01:29 if you mean "well just use slower things then" 01:01:30 TCP/IP does not scale to the solar system BECAUSE the speed of light is an issue. What I'm saying is we'll need a set of protocols that don't assume such low latency. 01:01:30 FUCK THAT 01:01:34 email is crap 01:01:55 space colonisation where each planet is an isolated bubble isn't an improvement 01:01:56 GregorR-L: Go back a few decades, then. 01:02:02 UUCP. 01:02:20 I wish I had hundreds of billions to blow on physicists so I could force them to figure out a loophole to the speed of light :P 01:02:21 GregorR-L: originally, the ttl field of a tcp packet was in seconds 01:02:29 who says tcp can't handle high latency? 01:02:49 bsmntbombdood: back then we sent like, oh, 30 packets at a time :P 01:02:49 bsmntbombdood: TCP can't do *half an hour* latency. 01:02:52 ehird: want to take a shot at making this a formally stated theory? "given the inherent relationship of intelligence to information processing and extrapolation from our current sample size of 1 (ourselves)..." 01:03:00 mycroftiv: no 01:03:23 and it's only 22 minutes worst case 01:03:39 bsmntbombdood: i'm afraid we can't control its orbit 01:03:44 anyway 01:03:45 best case is 3 minutes 01:03:46 6 minutes is still bad 01:03:49 whatever 01:03:53 3 minutes is as bad as 22 minutes 01:03:56 for 90% of things 01:04:05 "it seems likely that as technological civilizations advance, their needs for bandwidth and low latency connections mean that space travel is unlikely to be regarded as efficient or desirable, due to the inherent limitations of bandwidth and latency imposed on outward expansion" 01:04:06 unless you have a lot of patience and email 01:04:11 then 3 minutes is a bit less annoying 01:04:17 each planet can have a massive squid cache for web 01:04:58 the fact is that without realtime communication we set humanity back a hundred years 01:05:03 hmm, more 01:05:14 and sms seems to be quite popular these days, that will do fine with 3 minutes latency 01:05:23 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:05:44 *22 minutes 01:05:51 unless you want to limit all communication to a short period. 01:06:05 anyway, yes, we could do non-real time communication 01:06:10 to repeat: the fact is that without realtime communication we set humanity back a hundred years 01:06:16 not 100 years 01:06:18 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:06:26 You act as if all realtime communication MUST be with people on Earth. 01:06:27 bsmntbombdood: telephone 01:06:39 GregorR-L: FUCK isolated bubbles 01:06:45 that's not progress 01:06:48 ehird: look at sms 01:06:54 bsmntbombdood: sms is not real time 01:06:56 it's just email 01:07:09 my brother just got a cell phone...i think he's maybe spoken on it once 01:07:17 This conversation is too ehird-makes-amazingly-stupid-arguments for me to continue ... *vanish* 01:07:29 jesus christ you're all fucking retarded. 01:07:37 what i'm saying is that high latency text communication is becoming popular 01:07:59 yeah it's been popular for a while now gramps 01:08:02 the kids in the hood call it email 01:08:14 _in place_ of voice communication 01:08:17 regardless, an isolated bubble of real-time communication isn't progress 01:08:27 bsmntbombdood: yes, but SMS is also used as a surrogate real-time communication 01:08:28 IM-style 01:08:31 and you couldn't do that 01:08:43 true 01:09:11 s/a surr/surr/ 01:09:12 i wonder what kind of bandwidth you can get from mars 01:09:20 bsmntbombdood: we're talking about mars. 01:09:30 bsmntbombdood: You're limited by the FCC. 01:09:34 obviously 01:09:40 bsmntbombdood: anyway, this is theoretical limit 01:09:41 in practice 01:09:42 much lower 01:09:43 Or, rather, their interplanetary equivalent. 01:09:45 since we're not using freakin' light 01:09:49 *the the 01:09:52 (oretical) 01:09:55 so 01:09:58 latency will be even worse 01:10:07 and bandwidth will be the best of whatever can do those distances 01:10:11 prolly not much 01:10:33 thank you for idling speculating 01:10:40 but we have probes on mars 01:10:42 start googling 01:10:49 they use radio 01:10:55 and it's slow. 01:11:14 what else are you going to use besides radio? 01:11:22 gigantic fucking microwaves 01:11:31 + magic humans who can survive said microwaves 01:11:32 ...that's radio 01:11:38 well yeah technically 01:11:50 but generally we don't say radio when we mean HOLY FUCK I'M MELLLLLLLLLLLLTIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG 01:11:54 it _is_ all line of site 01:12:02 *sight 01:12:05 like, I don't point to my microwave and go 01:12:06 this is my radio oven 01:12:28 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:12:30 ehird: wtf are you on about 01:12:32 what the hell are we arguing about specifically? 01:12:37 mycroftiv: bunnies 01:12:39 ehird: microwave is commonly used for communication 01:12:49 bsmntbombdood: i'm talking _powerful_ microwaves 01:12:55 -!- pikhq__ has joined. 01:13:14 they're only powerful where you send them...with high gain directional antennas 01:13:21 away from the ground 01:13:21 AND WHY NOT 01:13:25 can someone please express the topic of debate in the form of a question to answer, or a statement of fact to agree/dispute? 01:13:34 mycroftiv: read yourself 01:13:48 ive been here and reading the whole time, and ive lost the thread 01:13:54 internet with mars. 01:13:58 mycroftiv: interplanetary bandwidth 01:14:08 and latency. 01:14:12 ok, but those are nouns. you cant disagree about nouns. 01:14:19 also humans, melting humans 01:14:25 mycroftiv: in this channel, we simply discuss/argue about things. 01:14:29 deal. 01:15:20 is the basic topic "will martian colonists have acceptable internet access?" 01:15:28 i think the likely answer is no. 01:15:48 if the topic is "is earth-mars communication possible" the answer is obviously yes. 01:15:51 http://selenianboondocks.com/2006/03/the-bandwidth-may-be-improving-but-the-latency-is-still-going-to-suck/ 01:16:10 mycroftiv: i assume they'll have a decent lan 01:16:23 obviously their local communications are no problem 01:16:32 the issue is making it not an isolated bubble 01:16:36 due to the speed of light, this is impossible. 01:16:41 ehird: the earth is an isolated bubble 01:16:47 Except for exotic physics. 01:16:51 yeah, but there aren't any humans elsewhere. 01:17:01 so we're not isolated relative to humans. 01:18:14 and bittorrent would still work 01:18:16 that's all i need 01:18:17 i guess i think the issues in re: mars are probably not insurmountable, but that the issues for extrasolar travel (the really interesting question imo) maybe *are* 01:18:21 bsmntbombdood: ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm 01:18:22 lol 01:18:36 if bittorrent never made any new connections, and you didn't have to share chunks, sure 01:18:53 but (a) it does and (b) they're gonna be sitting on their asses for 20 minutes waiting for your bytes to come through 01:18:54 wtf are you talking about 01:19:01 that's fine 01:19:04 -!- ehird has left (?). 01:19:08 -!- ehird has joined. 01:19:09 oops 01:20:29 -!- pikhq has joined. 01:27:28 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:29:05 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 01:30:17 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 01:30:17 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:34:33 -!- pikhq__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:38:01 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:40:39 -!- coppro has joined. 01:41:40 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:42:11 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 01:44:26 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:44:47 Ha! David S. Touretsky appeared on the interwebs. 01:54:28 okay that's not actually hah but. 01:57:35 -!- pikhq has joined. 02:00:15 -!- ehird has quit. 02:12:11 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:13:10 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:14:24 -!- coppro has joined. 02:24:30 -!- calamari_ has joined. 02:36:19 Hath it stabilised? 03:01:41 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:03:26 -!- coppro has joined. 03:05:25 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 03:07:41 im baking my shallot tart tatin! :D 03:19:50 -!- comex has joined. 03:28:05 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:19:30 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 04:27:27 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 04:50:20 ThinkGeek 04:50:36 's servers for a while went screwy and started not charging people for stuff. 04:50:55 ThinkGeek decided to take the opportunity to give out schwag. 04:51:17 Not being dicks == impressive. 04:51:24 lawl 04:52:00 "So you got shit for free. Guess what? It's actually free." :) 04:52:14 haha 04:54:04 i bet shittons of people are going to start buying stuff now 04:54:09 what 05:05:55 oh man 05:05:58 i wish i had known! D: 05:09:28 me too.. i always wanted that watch that's like $600 05:13:13 lol 05:13:21 i dont actually want anything from think geek, but even so 05:13:26 its my geeky duty! 05:13:39 I've gotten stuff from there for Christmas. 05:24:08 ohhhhhhh they don't sell the slide rule watch anymore 05:24:25 but they still have http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/a890/ 05:26:42 terrible 05:27:05 i'd buy it if it wasn't $600 05:27:35 also why 35 degrees north 05:28:17 why not? 05:28:34 is there even a major american city at that latitude 05:28:46 35 degrees north is where japan is 05:29:06 also oklahoma city 05:29:08 and just north of LA 05:29:18 Memphis too 05:29:26 right, but that's not why the watch uses 35 05:29:52 that's so northern hemisphere-centric 05:29:52 anyway it's not that big of a difference 05:29:52 ha yes 05:29:58 practically the fucking 05:30:04 centre of gravity of all the big japanese cities 05:30:17 just south of nagoya 05:30:42 osaka and tokyo and split the difference 05:30:45 it should work anywhere in japan, and, for that matter, anywhere in the states (except alaska) 05:31:01 hokkaido goes up to the 40s! 05:31:25 and the islands down to 24ish 05:31:40 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 05:32:28 http://filthyphil.tumblr.com/post/154985575/dont-act-like-youve-never-seen-a-two-legged-cat 05:32:29 D: 05:46:10 -!- augur has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:47:23 -!- augur has joined. 06:05:07 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:09:37 -!- calamari_ has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 06:09:49 -!- calamari_ has joined. 06:11:50 -!- Tenacity has joined. 06:19:40 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 06:45:56 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:11:19 -!- puzzlet has quit ("Reconnecting"). 07:11:22 -!- puzzlet has joined. 07:19:48 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 07:31:16 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:40:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 07:47:17 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 07:59:44 ehird: nostalgic over this http://web.archive.org/web/19961030202549/http://www.brooklinesw.com/geoport.html ? 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:12:44 hey, xkcd is writing about me, or something. 08:16:10 yay, girl genius won a hugo 08:17:25 anyone can recommend a piece of music, preferrably for organ, that fits in three octaves? 08:20:52 lament: your best bet is small bach keyboard works - check out the inventions and sinfonias 08:21:32 i can check some of my sheet music right now i guess to see if thats accurate, im pretty sure that range isnt too far off 08:22:31 yeah 08:22:44 some of them ought to work 08:24:21 4 octaves would be a lot more comfortable, but i think a fair number of small pieces fit into 3, or can do so with only trivial transposition of an occasional bass note up or something 08:37:41 lament, context? 08:37:51 as in, what to grep for 08:38:06 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 08:40:20 mycroftiv: yeah 08:40:30 but i want something more :) 08:45:50 lament, you want a small keyboard? Not enough space for a full length one? 08:46:02 (as I can't find anything relevant in scrollback) 08:46:34 my macbook already has a keyboard 08:46:49 lament, I meant, musical keyboard 08:46:50 :P 08:47:11 as in, electrical piano with MIDI over USB or such 08:47:45 here, shitty playing, but proof of concept that it can be done: http://filebin.ca/dmfhkb/bachprelude.mp3 08:47:55 i'm playing that on my keyboard 08:48:27 lament, *playing on macbook keyboard*? 08:48:27 hm 08:48:44 pretty sure I have seen someone in here try to use a desktop keyboard for playing music 08:48:46 GregorR maybe 08:48:48 not sure 08:50:07 probably me 08:50:17 pretty sure it was me :) 08:50:52 lament, ah 09:02:47 and me 09:02:56 about a year earlier 09:03:06 he thought no one would remember and ripped off my idea 09:05:27 -!- Gracenotes has quit ("Leaving"). 09:06:32 oh desktop keyboard 09:07:44 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:10:34 no, laptop 09:13:59 -!- oklokol has joined. 09:15:36 the chromatone is still fucking sexy 09:15:42 http://www.ubergizmo.com/photos/2007/8/chromatone-t312.jpg 09:15:50 i'm sure i'll end up buying one eventually 09:16:32 :o 09:16:32 omg 09:17:10 unfortunately it uses javko 09:17:14 janko 09:18:13 and i have a b-system accordion 09:19:23 lament, wow 09:19:27 (that picture) 09:20:00 it is like an electrical accordion? 09:20:20 sort of, but different layout 09:20:31 arguably, worse 09:20:46 I know next to nothing about playing accordion 09:20:56 even if you know piano its a bit tricky 09:21:10 I do play piano. (not professionally, just for fun) 09:21:12 the button/chording system adds a whole new element 09:21:43 mycroftiv, so for someone who can manage a bit on piano and on acoustic guitar: How does that thing work? 09:22:02 accordion? well, its basically a keyboard that you play the melody on, then buttons that set the accompanying chords 09:22:05 you press the keys, and it makes sounds 09:22:22 hm 09:22:35 mycroftiv, setting chords? you don't play chords the "normal" way? 09:22:56 so it's like you have a fixed set of possible chords? 09:23:03 yes, which is retarded 09:23:08 not all accordions are like that, though 09:23:21 if i ever get an accordion, it would need to have the same layout on both sides 09:23:28 lament, well... what about classical acoustic accordion. 09:23:30 such accordions exist too 09:23:38 the thing used for folk music and such 09:23:51 but usually, yeah, you have a set of chords 09:24:02 lament, how extensive is that set? 09:24:17 e.g. for each key, you have a major chord, a minor chord, an alternative root for the major chord, a major seventh, a diminished chord 09:24:29 hm ok 09:24:34 pretty useless if you want to play classical on it 09:28:30 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:28:36 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:45:48 -!- calamari_ has quit ("Leaving"). 09:53:44 lament: not all accordions are like that, though <<< most ones i've seen have both melodic and chord bass options 09:54:56 same layout on both sides? cool, i might even consider playing one 09:55:08 -!- Judofyr has joined. 09:55:28 they're ridiculously expensive though 09:55:30 but yeah 09:55:44 the coolest layout seems to be the russian one 09:55:56 all the accordions i've seen have cost a ridiculous amount anyway 09:56:05 it works like a piano - higher notes are downward on the right hand and upward on the left 09:56:30 so it's as if the two keyboards were two halves of the same keyboard 09:56:44 well, usually i'm against all that isn't symmetric, but that would already be better than piano, so i don't mind 09:57:15 other accordions have the keyboard mirrored, so higher notes are downward on both hands 09:57:44 hard to say wihch is better 09:57:44 right, i'd probably prefer that 09:57:49 oklokol: the relationship of symmetry and music is absolutely fascinating - for instance, the 'symmetrical division' of the octave is the frightful tritone, the devil in music! 09:57:56 also i don't know about "better", i'm all about purity 09:57:57 :P 09:58:02 actually yeah, this one is probably better 09:58:11 mycroftiv: the tritone is my favorite interval 09:58:20 since the scale patterns are the same with both hands 09:58:25 yeah 09:58:57 that's somewhat annoying in piano, but it makes up for it because there's not explicit split 09:59:08 and also in that i've already learned the patterns 10:00:50 shit, if i get a second laptop 10:00:55 i could do that with two laptops 10:01:05 sounds yummy 10:01:36 although i already hate all keyboards for being completel antisymmetric anyway 10:01:36 y 10:02:06 oklokol: a lot of that asymmetry is inherent in how we build music out of mathematical ratios 10:02:30 by which i mean the shifts to the right on different rows are completely random 10:02:41 mycroftiv: do you mean the split of the octave, or what exactly? 10:03:13 well, there are a lot of elements, this is my particular field of professional expertise, so what level of detail do you want in the answer? 10:03:33 on an adequate level! 10:03:34 maybe you should express what you mean by 'antisymmetric' in terms of keyboards, i dont follow what you mean yet maybe 10:03:37 oklokol: they're close enough on my macbook that it doesn't botehr me 10:03:54 oh, do you mean keyboards, not keyboards? 10:04:03 oklokol: think of it like the different sizes of frets on the guitar :) 10:04:04 computer keyboards, not piano keyboards? 10:04:14 mycroftiv: i simply mean the difference in shift between the two lower columns is different than it is on the first two 10:04:24 lament: hah :P 10:04:31 mycroftiv: computer. 10:04:37 ok, well i was miscontexted 10:04:45 i don't like the piano keyboard either, though. 10:04:45 i need a good way to control volume 10:04:47 i thought you disliked the asymmetery of the musical keyboard 10:04:53 because i'm not very fond of the major scale 10:05:17 so you prefer atonal serial music, like schonberg or boulez or elliot carter etc? 10:05:30 mycroftiv: i dislike the asymmetry of the musical keyboard. Accordians are much nicer. 10:05:32 (some people do, but its very rare) 10:05:33 never heard of any of those, but yes, i prefer atonal music 10:05:37 *accordions 10:05:38 lament: Use the Power Glove to control the volume. It's so BAD. 10:05:44 and i don't know what serial music is 10:05:50 mycroftiv: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtGlQHAEwVo 10:05:54 mycroftiv: that's me playing 10:05:54 hm the solution is obviously thermins (spelling?) 10:06:02 oklokol: its music composed on the idea of treating each of the 12 tones of the chromatic scale 'symmetrically' 10:06:21 right, i guess i imply that when i say atonal. 10:06:28 AnMaster: or violins 10:06:36 well, okay, no i don't know if i like atonal music 10:06:37 oklokol: not all atonal music is 'serial' - the serial school is a particular method 10:06:42 fizzie: hrm 10:06:44 lament, they sound better too. So yes 10:06:56 lament: i dont have flash enabled on this computer so ill have to check that link later 10:07:16 fizzie, power glove? 10:07:31 fizzie: i liked that joke 10:07:40 mycroftiv, use vlc or such + the command line program youtube-dl 10:07:41 AnMaster: its a pop cultural reference to a very bad movie about video games 10:07:47 the hands are busy playing, so maybe volume could be controlled by a foot moving the mouse 10:07:58 AnMaster: The actual glove is an old (1989) accessory for the NES console. 10:07:59 anyway i need to go read random crap now -> 10:08:13 mycroftiv, ah. Well for reference I suck at popular culture references 10:08:28 AnMaster: me too, i get them all second hand, ive never seen the movie, but i know the line 10:08:47 The Wikipedia power glove page has the requisite "in popular culture" section. 10:08:56 the hands are busy playing, so maybe volume could be controlled by a foot moving the mouse <-- hrrm 10:08:59 every pop culture reference i know, i know because ive learned it from the internet referencing it, its been like this since the 80s 10:09:00 foot controlled mice? 10:09:01 And I haven't seen it either, I just know it by osmosis. 10:09:04 could be interesting 10:09:07 I mean, in general 10:09:19 A friend here was considering getting some foot pedals for Emacs. 10:09:28 fizzie, oh? 10:09:30 :D 10:09:46 I wonder if I can use my rudder pedals for something like that 10:09:54 sounds like a half measure, how about a full pipe organ setup for emacs? 10:09:56 that's a total of three axis 10:10:03 you could play 'stallman's 3rd sonata for emacs' on it 10:10:07 yaw and each toe brake 10:10:13 mycroftiv, I take it you dislike emacs? 10:10:17 ;P 10:10:29 AnMaster: ive never even been able to learn enough of it to dislike it 10:10:33 ah 10:10:41 mycroftiv, for reference I'm IRCing from inside emacs 10:10:45 awesome 10:11:06 I tried out ERC, but it didn't really stick. 10:11:11 http://www.emacswiki.org/cgi-bin/wiki/ERC 10:11:19 im a stallman fanatic when it comes to software freedom, but i like much more minimalistic tools than emacs 10:11:23 fizzie, indeed. There is some other irc client for emacs too 10:11:26 maybe you would prefer it 10:11:31 riece or something iirc 10:11:34 not sure about spelling 10:11:56 I think I'll keep swapping clients every few months or so; variety is good for... well, it must be good for *something*! 10:11:59 odd thing is, I find zsh bloated, so I use bash 10:12:00 though perhaps if you switch to emacs-as-os mode, then emacs becomes a nice flexible lightweight environment with nice lightweight tools 10:12:15 of course bash could *also* be considered bloated. compared to simpler shells at least 10:12:28 im a plan9 devotee, so we think everything everyone uses is bloated 10:13:00 mycroftiv, you have the power of lisp always. Admittedly this is *elisp*. So dynamic scoping. But better than vimscript definitely. 10:13:29 yes, i understand that the emacs paradigm of being a full operating environment with full reflexivity because of lisp is actually awesome, once you know what the hell you are doing 10:13:52 mycroftiv, I can customise my irc client a lot. Just write a hook in elisp 10:14:09 there are lots of places that you can hook into. Basically everything. 10:14:24 yup, i love the idea being able to modify your environment in real time as you work in it 10:14:53 (now I'm quite happy with the defaults/pre-made available options in most cases for ERC, but in a few places I hooked in my own code) 10:15:00 now,* 10:15:38 mycroftiv, anyway, while lisp is awesome, elisp isn't 10:16:23 mostly due to the dynamic scoping. But even apart from that it is quite sucky compared to scheme (I don't know common lisp, so can't compare with that) 10:16:38 bbl 10:55:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:04:04 -!- M0ny has joined. 11:19:22 -!- asiekierka has joined. 11:19:23 hi! 11:19:25 long time no see :) 11:29:35 -!- FireFly has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:49:33 ! 11:50:54 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 11:56:38 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 12:02:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:06:59 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 12:13:53 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:13:53 -!- sebbu2 has changed nick to sebbu. 12:21:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:24:24 -!- jix has joined. 12:45:42 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 12:48:15 -!- jix has joined. 13:06:35 -!- ehird has joined. 13:08:17 MAXIMISE RADICALNESS IN YOUR EVERY ACTION! 13:09:31 20:50:36 's servers for a while went screwy and started not charging people for stuff. 13:09:31 20:50:55 ThinkGeek decided to take the opportunity to give out schwag. 13:09:31 20:51:17 Not being dicks == impressive. 13:09:31 i would buy thinkgeek stuff, but the last time I got something from there the import tax was like £70 13:11:13 23:59:44 ehird: nostalgic over this http://web.archive.org/web/19961030202549/http://www.brooklinesw.com/geoport.html ? 13:11:14 no 13:11:16 I wasn't even alive then 13:11:20 err 13:11:22 i was one year old, rather 13:12:34 lament: how do you think using the fancy shmancy multi touch trackpad on the new macbook pros would go for musak 13:12:43 could be fun 13:13:04 00:48:44 pretty sure I have seen someone in here try to use a desktop keyboard for playing music 13:13:05 yeah lament posted a video 13:13:30 ehird: i dunno, how would you use it? 13:13:44 i dunno! :P 13:13:55 would prolly work best in combination 13:13:56 especially if your hands are busy playing stuff 13:14:09 you could do, like, modulation with it 13:14:19 though that's fairly useless and not multitouchy 13:15:35 touchpad could work pretty well as a volume control, except that the hands are already occupied 13:16:06 so the only solution i see is some kind of pedal (possibly the mouse) 13:16:18 Your nose is also free. 13:16:55 "Free lament's nose, only today on #esoteric! Terms and restrictions may apply. Order valid only while supplies last." 13:18:14 lament: eh, keyboards (musical kind) have sliders and shit next to the keys 13:19:16 that' true 13:19:37 i'm not a keyboardist so i don't know how they work or what they're useful for 13:20:03 i've seen the pitch bender thing but can't imagine a use for it 13:20:40 fizzie: that would look absolutely fucking brilliant 13:21:34 pitch bending is very useful if you are trying to imitate the sounds of non keyboard instruments 13:21:59 for instance, even a well sampled synth brass instrument is going to sound quite 'lifeless' if the samples are 'straight on' pitch unless you bend into them a bit 13:22:26 for something like playing pseudo-electric guitar on a digital keyboard, the pitch bending and other 'expression' controls are invaluable 13:22:36 I think some sort of use-your-tongue-like-a-joystic things also exist. 13:22:53 i think its not 'tongue as a joystick' its breath control if im thinking of the same things... 13:23:05 but i havent kept up with all the toys so maybe there is a tongue joystick 13:23:08 01:57:49 oklokol: the relationship of symmetry and music is absolutely fascinating - for instance, the 'symmetrical division' of the octave is the frightful tritone, the devil in music! 13:23:08 no, that's the Boîte Diabolique: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg&fmt=18#t=5m42s 13:23:30 Quick Googling only found http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26338543/ 13:23:38 Maybe not as a product yet, but still. 13:23:42 fizzie: i'm imagining some kind of pedal contraption with a wooden frame for the mouse, s.t. when you press on the pedal, the mouse moves 13:23:42 also, the modulation is useful for pretending you have a theremin. 13:24:30 lament: uhh just hook the pedal up to the computer 13:24:35 hmm, there are things very much like the boite diabolique that are quite real, microtonal keyboards have been around for hundreds of years actually 13:24:53 ehird: that requires a pedal 13:25:07 mycroftiv: yes, ear-bleeding notes of fucked up colours. :P 13:25:09 that are locked 13:25:13 lament: mehhhhhhhh 13:25:22 lament: i'm more interested in using things directly rather than hacking them up 13:25:46 that requires buying such a pedal, if it even exists 13:25:59 lament: of course it exists, but 13:26:02 who gives a shit about pedals 13:26:04 they're conventional and boring. 13:27:09 yes, using the tongue would be much better 13:27:25 but of course the perfect solution would be a touch-sensitive computer keyboard 13:27:30 you just don't appreciate the utilisation of gizmos and gadgets 13:27:32 also, fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck no 13:27:38 tactile <3 13:27:52 anyway the perfect solution would be total virtual reality of course. 13:28:09 the perfect solution would be to become a lesbian. 13:28:23 sounds about right. 13:31:12 hi 13:31:43 oh god, no 13:32:01 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cWWV0KNDg&fmt=18#t=5m42s <<< what the absolute fuck is this 13:32:42 look around you 13:32:46 it's an excellent educational program 13:32:59 well was 13:33:13 is it meant to be like some kinda bad surreal humor 13:33:27 if so, i don't get it 13:33:36 well of course you're not going to like it just jumping in like that, also the music episode isn't the best. 13:33:52 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2NOTanzWI&fmt=18 is prolly a better start. 13:34:14 so are you saying it is supposed to be educational? i'm just asking what the point is 13:34:36 Yes, oklokol. It is really trying to teach people about the twelve forbidden notes on every piano... 13:35:59 i'll assume it is, because i can't come up with another possibility 13:36:21 the boite diabolique is just filler in between segments 13:36:35 I had heard of "edutainment" and "infotainment", but "edugamement" was a new one. 13:36:49 (Not related.) 13:36:59 oklokol: srsly, just watch the maths episode, it's good :P 13:37:47 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pj2NOTanzWI&fmt=18 <<< okay, this is humor, even rather funny 13:37:53 err and yeah that's the math 13:44:38 oklokol: what does "err and yeah that's the math" mean :P 13:45:37 fizzie, what would those words mean 13:45:40 that it was exactly the maths episode you were talking about 13:45:47 how was that not terribly clear! 13:45:51 fizzie, containment of education/info for the first wo? 13:45:59 two* 13:46:10 the last one I have no clue about 13:46:53 Entertainment, not containment. 13:46:55 i think i have my mind wrapped around the music episode too 13:47:01 "Edutainment (also educational entertainment or entertainment-education) is a form of entertainment designed to educate as well as to amuse." 13:47:03 fizzie, ah 13:47:29 fizzie: that sounds absolutely horrible 13:47:34 fizzie, you mean like really boring programs by Utbildningsradion? 13:47:50 I think it generally is quite horrible, yes. 13:47:54 (and no clue what is the equivalent in UK or US) 13:48:04 can i see an example of it now, please 13:48:30 edulamement 13:48:32 Also "educational games" could be lumped under edutainment, but apparently there is also a (fortunately not much used) new term "edugamement" for that. 13:48:34 OH SNAP! 13:50:23 [[Statistics can no longer be considered reliable, or reliably available going forward. 13:50:24 However, all tr.im links will continue to redirect, and will do so until at least December 31, 2009. 13:50:24 Your tweets with tr.im URLs in them will not be affected.]] 13:50:25 ha, ha, ha 13:50:35 take that, people who say "naw, a URL shortening service would NEVER disappear!" 13:51:20 im eager to find those people and say 'i told you so' also, apart from the fact that i never met any of them, and i never heard of tr.im before today 13:51:34 well then you are not the target market of my statement! 13:51:46 what's the context of this 13:52:43 umm flying people 13:52:47 zoooooooooooooooooooooom 13:52:58 :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD 13:53:48 :DDDDDDDDDD YAY FLYING 13:53:49 \o/ 13:53:52 "There is no way for us to monetize URL shortening -- users won't pay for it --" Really! 13:54:04 -!- ehird has set topic: :DDDDDDDDDDD FLYING PEOPLE *ONLY*!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 13:54:10 -!- ehird has set topic: FLYING PEOPLE *ONLY* :DDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 13:54:13 -!- nooga has joined. 13:54:13 fizzie: quite 13:54:20 what? there are free url shortening services? man im gonna find that guy ive been paying $5 to every week and kick his ass 13:54:24 hey 13:54:26 mycroftiv: :D 13:56:01 is there a tool that analyzes C++ code to visualize what classes are needed for other classes to function etc? 13:56:07 man, i spend all my time on the internet, but i still live in a different world - i read stuff like "twitter's ecosystem has lots of developers" and i dont even have the vaguest clue what 'developing for twitter' even means 13:56:44 i only have a vague idea what twitter is 13:56:54 i think its a service popular with twits 13:57:16 i'm trying to get either a good ZX Spectrum assembler for the PC 13:57:16 that is my semantic assumption, at least 13:57:20 or a good binary->tape converter 13:57:36 binary->tape? what 13:57:46 .out binary assembler output -> tape 13:57:51 as in 13:57:52 .tap 13:57:52 what tape? 13:57:53 or .tzx 13:57:53 :P 13:58:44 i have no idea what those contain, i'll just stick with the assumption you want to change the file extension 13:59:12 http://www.computerbrains.com/tapformat.html 13:59:19 siimple 13:59:50 mycroftiv: i'm going to try and explain twitter and wtf "programming for twitter" means in one (1) irc line, because i'm fucking insane and hate myself 14:00:17 i know twitter is some kind of web platform for push/pull of tiny text segments 14:00:40 Yes, well, the .tap format's simple because it's pretty much just an image of the tape contents; it's not that trivial to get a binary on it so that the target system can load it from the tape. 14:01:40 fizzie: but if you have appropriate binary 14:02:02 Yes, but you still have to find out how the binary is stored on the tape. 14:02:26 The "data" in that format is just timings for pulses, not binary data. 14:02:52 Anyway, I would have to guess there are several existing programs to do it. (I last used one some seven years ago and don't remember the name.) 14:07:45 I guess it was that WAV-PRG one, though I have no idea how speccy-friendly it is. 14:14:51 I'm guessing ehird's task of explaining what Twitter is made him implode. 14:15:15 I managed to do it in five IRC lines but just /msg'd it to mycroftiv since, as nobody cares, I decided to bore as few people as possible 14:15:26 Ah. 14:15:30 Now do it in one Tweet. 14:15:41 That's, what, 140 characters? 14:15:45 yep 14:15:49 i'll try, with the help of OS X's summariser 14:16:00 but every piece of info in those 5 tweets is required to understand why 14:16:01 as opposed to what 14:17:26 * ehird condenses to three paras 14:19:42 Oh, a "why" explanation for twoodler would be nice. That's something I've been asked, and never been able to answer. 14:20:08 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 14:21:20 I think I can get it down to two IRC messages: what-with-a-bit-of-why, and why 14:21:23 a tweet's pushing it a bit 14:21:35 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:21:49 Two IRC messages is not too shabby either. 14:27:48 almost got it in two IRC messages 14:29:12 fizzie: what's the max irc message limit again? 14:30:50 512 bytes, but two are taken by the potential \r\n at the end, and then it depends on how long the command is; on-channel "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" eats, what, 19 bytes or so. 14:30:54 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:31:17 so 495 14:31:31 493 and 508 atm 14:32:25 got it! 14:32:42 fizzie: and now, I will attempt to explain what Twitter is and why it is in two IRC lines. 14:32:45 You see all tweets from people you follow. Originally: "what are you doing right now?"; friends see it, talk about it, possibly join in with it. It's also become a thing-in-itself: people carry out conversations through it, etc. Basically, it does a very large amount of what IM services do, a little bit of what email does, and then the bit of its own ("what are you doing right now?"). Also, mention people in your tweet and it shows on one of their tabs, even 14:32:46 Importantly, it's pseudo-real-time: no on/offline; though you get messages as they're posted and can reply then, it can also work as 1/2 per day. Not like IRC technically in this way (unlike IRC in the usage of it (not technically), of course; shares facets though). One thing that doesn't match: hashtags (topics proceeded by #) - not channels because messages don't have continuity; just groupings of messages about the same thing. By searching, you can scan th 14:33:02 bleh 14:33:05 fizzie: don't bother to read that 14:33:09 fizzie: you didn't account for the name 14:33:14 the :ehird@blahblahshit 14:33:21 * ehird wittles it down further 14:34:18 Oh, right. Since it's not in the command, it's just in the messages forwarded by the server, which of course have the same length limit too. 14:35:17 fizzie: let's try this again 14:35:20 Tweets are sent out to followers. Originally: "what are you doing right now?"; friends see it, talk about it, possibly join in with it. It's also become a thing-in-itself: conversations through it, etc. It does a very large amount of what IM services do, a little bit of what email does, and then the bit of its own ("what are you doing right now?"). 14:35:20 Importantly, pseudo-real-time: no on/offline; you get messages as they're posted and can reply then; can also work as 1/2 per day. Not like IRC technically here (unlike in the usage of it (not technically) too, ofc; shares facets though). Thing that doesn't match: hashtags (topics after #) - not channels, messages don't have continuity; groupings of messages about the same thing. 14:35:26 yay 14:36:25 Congratulations. 14:40:05 fizzie: that's sort of like saying "congratulations on your brain enema". 14:40:25 one thing short form writing is not for is long explanations :P 14:47:22 -!- pikhq has joined. 14:55:50 -!- Judofyr has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:00:30 English is like magic! 15:01:20 um 15:01:23 about the length there 15:02:11 server sends somewhat like this to other clients: 15:02:18 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.86.99 PRIVMSG #esoteric :blah blah 15:02:22 unless I misremmeber 15:02:35 and iirc the length limit of 512 applies *from server* too 15:02:38 Do you deliberately ignore lines that say what you want to say? 15:02:42 again unless I misremember 15:03:47 ehird, I was just doing log reading like you do. since obviously you think this is a good idea. I would assume you want the same applied to yourself 15:03:49 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:04:13 you do try awfully hard to be obnoxious, don't you 15:04:15 -!- pikhq has joined. 15:05:23 http://shop.orange.co.uk/mobile-phones/toshiba-tg01 // the 1GHz phones are here! 15:05:54 ehird, I tried to be kind. Maybe assuming that you like others doing what you do yourself was wrong. 15:06:20 golden rule and all that. obsolete clearly :P 15:12:52 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 15:17:44 There's a rumour that Motorola's building two keyboardy Android phones; the second one ("Sholes") might have a 854x480 display (so 266 DPI) and built on the TI OMAP3430; that's a 600 MHz ARM + PowerVR SGX 530 GPU + 430 MHz TI C64x DSP core. 15:18:54 It's no gigahertz, but still. Google's been promising that later releases of that "NDK" native-code development kit will allow linking with the OpenGL ES 2.0 and audio libraries. Currently I thinki it's just libc+libm and all "interesting" parts have to be done with their JVM code. 15:19:22 fizzie, how large is the screen then 15:19:34 "45.72 mm by 81.34 mm". 15:19:41 kay 15:19:43 None of this is very confirmed information. 15:19:51 anyway 15:20:12 *waits for dual core processors in phones* 15:20:53 You know 15:21:02 The other Motorola thing, "Morrison", is (maybe) going to be some sort of lower-end device, with a 480x320 screen and the "default" 528 MHz ARM that's in the Hero and G1 and whatnot. 15:21:47 Well, there's already three cores if you count the CPU, GPU and DSP. (I doubt the DSP is very application-accessible, though, and I don't know how much OpenGL ES 2.0 does programmabilities in shaders and such.) 15:22:05 what is that "powervr" thing 15:22:29 as in, what brand makes them and such 15:22:35 never heard of that gpu product before 15:22:49 or is povervr the brand? 15:22:50 Well, PowerVR makes them. It's very common for mobile 3D. 15:23:06 Apparently a "division of Imagination Technologies (formerly VideoLogic)". 15:23:11 ah 15:23:21 "in use in many high-end cellphones including the Apple iPhone, Nokia N95, Sony Ericsson P1, and Motorola RIZR Z8" -- quite a list. 15:24:54 Though the 535 used in the iPhone 3GS does double as many (28 vs. 14) millions of polygons per second as the 530 model. 15:25:00 so I still haven't finished logreading yet! 15:25:01 02:05:17 so you prefer atonal serial music, like schonberg or boulez or elliot carter etc? 15:25:02 -!- pikhq has quit (Nick collision from services.). 15:25:06 i think i've heard some schonberg 15:25:07 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 15:25:13 and i seem to recall it was a lot better than any other classical i've heard. 15:26:49 Schönberg had different "periods" in his composing, to begin with he wasn't atonal. iirc 15:27:19 I'm no expert on Schönberg though 15:28:28 after a brief googling i conclude that indeed it is awesome 15:29:09 also the power glove was ALMOST awesome 15:29:25 but the buttons should have been where you'd make a fist 15:29:28 so you can use one hand 15:30:27 02:11:19 im a stallman fanatic when it comes to software freedom, but i like much more minimalistic tools than emacs 15:30:27 i think i use proprietary software just to annoy stallmanites 15:31:09 wrt the emacs as environment stuff, emacs is a bad lisp os 15:31:20 that stupidly focuses on one widget, the text editor 15:36:13 ... Emacs, minimalist? 15:36:31 It's a freaking Lisp OS. 15:37:40 more minimalistic than Emacs does not imply much minimalism. 15:38:04 Oh, "more minimalistic than emacs". 15:38:07 I misread that sentence. 15:38:21 "More minimialistic, like Emacs." 15:40:19 Hahahah. "Tea Party" member starts a brawl in a town hall during a health debate, gets injured. He's now asking for donations, since he doesn't have insurance. 15:45:02 :D 15:45:09 I'll donate minus dollars. 15:46:25 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:46:45 I'll donate exactly one socialist dollar. 15:46:53 (aka €) 15:47:26 -!- AnMaster has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:48:07 btw, http://telcontar.net/Misc/GUI/RISCOS/ 15:48:12 very interesting 15:48:20 e.g. selections are a submenu in the right click 15:48:28 there aren't any global menus, just right clicking 15:48:36 and the menus have text input and other things 15:48:42 sort of an interface unto themselves 15:48:45 *onto, whatever 15:49:25 and ofc it was the first OS with text antialiasing... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/33/RISCOS_4_scr.png 15:49:43 even subpixel, says wikipedia 15:50:04 pretty awesome when you consider that they also invented ARM 15:51:01 the ui looks pretty wimpy to me. 15:51:04 I want to make an esolang that resembles an alien language 15:51:10 olegfink: "wimpy"? 15:51:18 it is no doubt a good WIMP, but still a wimp 15:51:18 what an awful way to classify a gui 15:51:28 "it looks, easy, and, and, usable and wimpy" 15:51:36 (yeah yeah i get it) 15:51:37 (joking) 15:51:54 ehird: as in tuomo's definition, windows, icons, menus and pointer 15:51:57 i know 15:52:04 olegfink: anyway it was released in 1988 15:52:05 so 15:52:14 olegfink: but there are interesting details 15:52:18 some of which I mentioned 15:52:20 http://github.com/asiekierka/2D-Sandbox/tree/master - something i've been making 15:52:20 that no other OS has afaik 15:52:55 (asiekierka figured out how to use git?) 15:53:21 sort of 15:53:27 not much but a bit, yeah 15:53:55 -!- asiekierka has set topic: FLYING PEOPLE (and wimpy ui's) *ONLY* :DDDDDDDDDDD!!!!!! http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:54:07 I hereby ban asiekierka from modifying the topic. 15:54:16 -!- ehird has set topic: flaught http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:54:34 ehird: indeed, but too small differences and too late. oberon ui has more chances. 15:54:43 * pikhq changes asiekierka's topic to: main = getArgs >>= parseFromFile toplevel . head >>= either print print 15:54:58 -!- asiekierka has set topic: #esoteric is now unofficially #ehirdland | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:55:04 stop, it, asiekierka 15:55:07 What 15:55:07 olegfink: did I say it's the best UI ever? 15:55:13 i just said that it has some interesting aspects 15:55:20 -!- ehird has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:55:40 -!- pikhq has set topic: I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:55:44 I _HATE_ you 15:55:48 Pony. 15:56:11 yeah, by the way, does 'fs' in 'hostfs' stand for filesystem? 15:56:25 why not set +t on this channel? 15:56:35 Because no-one is ops heres 15:56:35 olegfink: (a) prolly (b) everybody but asiekierka makes fun topics 15:56:45 -!- asiekierka has set topic: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:56:46 asiekierka: apart from fizzie and lament 15:56:49 -!- pikhq has set topic: I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:56:49 who have both talked a lot today 15:57:18 -!- asiekierka has set topic: (b) everybody but asiekierka makes fun topics | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:57:24 asiekierka 15:57:28 what 15:57:30 i'm just 15:57:30 asiekierka: Stop being dumb. 15:57:30 like 15:57:31 citing you 15:57:33 i wish you would either go away or stop changing the topic like that 15:57:37 -!- pikhq has set topic: I þink þat þis is þorny | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:57:58 Can I change the topic like that then 15:58:32 ... 15:58:41 I stab thee. 15:59:36 I ſtab þee 16:00:00 olegfink: i thought you were disappearing for a month anyway or something 16:00:39 -!- Judofyr has joined. 16:00:40 -!- oerjan has joined. 16:00:57 ehird, my weekends aren't that long 16:01:01 xD 16:01:08 durr I'm stupid 16:01:51 but I can just shut up and pretend I'm still on vacation. 16:02:04 no :P 16:03:05 by the way, speaking of guis, k3 gui is one of the best I've seen 16:03:18 it's purely data-driven and reactive 16:03:46 iirc clean has something of the sort, haskell and ocaml still have quite some problems with frp implementations 16:03:57 k3 gui gooling helps not, plz linky 16:03:58 at least I haven't seen anything working 16:04:12 my os' ui is hilariously undecided 16:04:36 but i haven't even considered FRP, that's how much of a conservative curmudgeon I am! 16:05:35 hmm, the reference is only available as a pdf 16:05:55 that's fine 16:06:03 my OS is unannoying enough to handle PDFs smoothly 16:06:53 ehird: Really, it's only Windows that doesn't... 16:07:02 Adobe's PDF reader. *shudder* 16:07:13 linux doesn't let you view a pdf as smoothly as if it was just an html page does it? 16:07:15 ehird: what's your os? 16:07:19 olegfink: OS X 16:07:25 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:07:26 but Windows is indeed the worst 16:07:43 some examples with screenies: http://nsl.com/papers/calculator.htm 16:07:49 http://nsl.com/papers/instant.htm 16:08:00 ah an nsl dealie 16:08:02 always fun 16:08:05 olegfink: oh k3 16:08:06 like 16:08:08 k v3 16:08:17 i thought it was some fun obscure os called K3 or sth 16:08:26 heh 16:08:26 but yeah, I thought you mean the UIs themselves were FR somehow 16:08:31 the k os is called kaos 16:08:36 but it's yet to be written 16:08:38 k3's ui code looks very nice, resulting uis are still wimp though 16:08:48 You people know Scheme right? 16:08:53 yes. 16:08:57 collectively. :P 16:08:59 because, eh, they are designed to map to x11/winapi? 16:09:04 olegfink: well, yeah 16:09:07 i just mean the paradigm 16:09:13 not a criticism 16:09:17 just saying i misinterpreted it 16:09:25 olegfink: but k doesn't use native windows widgets 16:09:28 Great, then tell me whether/why (define-syntax m (syntax-rules () ((m (x ((((#(y))))) ...)) '(y ...)))) is valid with (m (x)) being the empty list 16:09:45 Deewiant: http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-2.html 16:09:46 :P 16:09:54 http://schemers.org/Documents/Standards/R5RS/HTML/r5rs-Z-H-7.html#%_sec_4.3 16:10:01 ↑ macro definition 16:10:10 just a few pages 16:10:29 ehird: don't know enough about winapi, but probably. any way, doing an oberon-like thing in this style is even simpler, considering the implementation of acme. 16:10:39 -!- FireFly has joined. 16:10:44 acme? i only know it as the wonderful plan 9 editor 16:10:47 but I /definitely/ want such a UI! 16:10:50 yeah, that. 16:10:57 is that oberon-style? 16:11:07 acme's pretty damn awesome, needs a bit more discoverability though 16:11:14 you basically have to know how to do the transformation you want 16:11:17 quite, oberon also did graphics though. 16:11:52 ehird: I've read it through about 20 times 16:12:05 Deewiant: meditate a bit, try in a few other implementations 16:12:15 well, that means knowing sam (or acme's builtin text processing language which is the same) and unix/plan9 tools 16:12:18 Is there a platform which doesn't have a BF interpreter yet? 16:12:25 olegfink: yeah 16:12:27 still 16:12:31 acme is nice if you know it 16:12:33 ehird: I'm not interested in the result, I'm interested in whether the spec says it or not :-P 16:12:50 Deewiant: yes, and if implementations disagree you need to check the spec more closely 16:12:54 To me it seems as though it only says "[the pattern variables] are replaced in the output by all of the subforms they match in the input, distributed as indicated." 16:12:56 but if they agree it's likely they're right 16:13:20 Deewiant: try SISC 16:13:29 Deewiant: it passes the extremely perverted R5RS edgecase tests, so 16:13:32 Which, to me, seems like "it's obvious so we won't go into the details" or "we don't give a shit about the details" and I'm not sure which one they mean 16:14:04 anyway, limiting the graphical options of a widget toolkit is certainly worth having the ability to code the ui in K3 style 16:14:26 Again: Is there a platform which doesn't have a BF interpreter yet? 16:14:39 olegfink: i don't believe limitation of such things is ever neccessary 16:14:49 asiekierka: we're not answering your question because it's tedious and you ask it all the time 16:16:08 ehird: well, it's not that easy to map some more obscure gui elements to the data 16:16:18 then the paradigm is limited 16:16:33 oklokol's os/ui ideas seem to strike a nice balance, vague as they are 16:16:36 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 16:16:40 and they map quite a bit to mine 16:17:43 oklokol: basically (I'm going to be second-hand egotistical (does that even make sense?) and assume you vaguely care), 16:17:51 err 16:17:52 olegfink: 16:18:26 some data (object, whatever) is viewed/modified through the "view" of some behaviour defining a ui element 16:18:27 ehird: SISC agrees with mzscheme 16:18:39 and this directly manipulates the underlying data reference 16:18:39 But I don't care, I want to know where the hell they're getting this from 16:18:50 so you can take out the object and give it a new interface and they sync up 16:19:04 and you could e.g. 16:19:04 be running a rotate view on an image, 16:19:09 then take out the underlying object and put it in a zoom view 16:19:11 then set a zoom 16:19:15 and if you used the rotate view some more 16:19:21 the zoomer would update according to the new underlying object 16:19:35 that sounds somewhat close to MVC to me. 16:19:42 olegfink: it's not, though 16:19:48 it's far more functional/non-destructive 16:19:57 and the "views" are much more lightweight 16:20:14 it's very close to directly manipulating the object 16:20:23 it's just that the viewing/manipulation is abstracted away 16:20:24 the only reason frp works in k3 is that it has a very simple type system, doing what you're proposing probably requires much more 16:20:34 no, this could work trivially with dynamic/duck typing 16:20:44 you just need objects 16:20:47 K does that, but only for a string repr.: 16:21:07 but yeah, you basically making UIs by composing mini objects with abstracted direct-manipulations 16:21:08 every value is assigned two functions, ..f and ..u, which is format and update respectively 16:21:21 and feed the underlying data into other things 16:21:24 thus locking things together 16:21:33 the first maps the value to string, the second does the reverse whenever the user updates the screen view 16:22:33 the problem is, again, the same as with acme: we vaguely inderstand how to do all this with plain text but not with anything else 16:22:53 i really don't think the idea i'm expressing is mvc though 16:23:27 recall the usual wysiwyg problem, you just can't present rich text on screen in an editable way so you could re-serialize it with some degree of common sense 16:23:54 yeah, what you're expressing is very close to what K does 16:23:56 hmm 16:24:02 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:24:13 but the thing is that you can build any sort of UI with it, because it's essentially completely generic 16:24:17 Screw this, this is UB. 16:24:22 as long as your UI maps to some tangible data, which is always good UI practice 16:25:13 damn, our ajax k ui thingy seems to be in the middle of a yet another revamp, so I can't show you that on the web 16:25:49 ...it basically doesn't do editing now 16:26:04 are you the nsl.com owner? unless there's a bunch of people who do both K and esolangs 16:26:09 which I wouldn't put past the language 16:26:56 -!- Asztal has quit (Success). 16:28:23 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:28:49 well that killed the channel :) 16:28:57 no, the person behind nsl.com is stevan apter 16:29:22 ok :) 16:29:53 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:30:24 when i've looked into k it's just seemed like it's bogged down by corporate concerns etc and there's no real easy way to get into programming fun stuff with it 16:31:26 that program by kx that converted k code into english made an impression on me though 16:31:37 as you can see, stevan does. :-) I'm trying as well. 16:31:41 mm 16:31:49 olegfink: is my impression that k4/q sort of drifts away from this sort of stuff correct? 16:32:01 i couldn't find a free k3 binary anywhere. 16:32:19 at least it has neither ui nor the dependency/fr stuff 16:32:31 http://nsl.com/misc/int/ 16:32:42 both documentation and distributions 16:32:46 olegfink: heh, it just had to have every platform but mine 16:32:54 i know k4 supports osx, maybe k3 didn't 16:33:07 yeah, only linux, solaris and windows :-( 16:33:18 uberlame 16:33:52 i know qemu has something that might let me run the linux one natively 16:33:55 that forwards the syscalls or something 16:33:55 but indeed I find k4/q much less fun 16:34:01 or is that just same-os, different-arch i wonder 16:34:04 and iirc it only works on linux 16:34:30 osx is ought to have some linux syscall emulator 16:34:38 bit of a niche market 16:34:45 every other os (well, except windows) seems to have one 16:34:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:34:53 it doesn't need it for games like bsd, because more games exist for osx than linux, 16:35:08 and most other "linux" only software is foss and works on bsds too 16:35:13 (of which osx is one) 16:35:27 the proprietary app that supports linux but not osx is a rare thing 16:36:22 heh, then you're probably out of luck ;-) 16:36:36 then wait while we finish the web version of k3 ui 16:36:39 [[QEMU has two operating modes[2]: 16:36:39 User mode emulation 16:36:40 QEMU can launch Linux or Darwin/Mac OS X processes compiled for one CPU on another CPU. Target OS system calls are thunked for endianness and 32/64 bit mismatches.]] 16:36:41 *dammit* 16:37:02 olegfink: is that like some try ruby sorta dealie 16:37:08 http://tryruby.hobix.com 16:37:44 aye, *this* functionality already works, but the ui can only do scalars and number lists 16:37:58 so it isn't that much fun 16:38:24 also one (mis)feature tryruby lacks is of course the ability to do a rm -rf * 16:38:43 that's, a feature? :D 16:38:44 because K has no built-in ways to disable harmful stuff 16:38:55 nor ruby 16:39:04 tryruby uses why's freaky deaky sandbox (real name) 16:39:11 ah 16:39:22 which is a patch to the impl and some gnarly ruby code 16:39:35 well, then I could as well. K seems to feel pretty comfortable chrootted to an empty dir 16:39:59 just do what GregorR's HackEgo does 16:40:00 `ls 16:40:01 bin \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.23971 16:40:03 olegfink: use plash 16:40:09 it's a debian thingy that lets you totally isolate stuff 16:40:13 chrooted, random user id each time 16:40:18 syscalls selectively enabled etc 16:41:20 wonder if i could convince cygwin to compile on os x 16:41:32 (answer: no) 16:43:25 http://www.openlina.com/ iiinteresting, apparently you can make it seamlessly do linux cli apps on os x 16:43:30 (as well as gui apps on etc etc) 16:43:43 o 16:43:45 *i'll try it 16:45:04 olegfink: am I right in thinking that most of k's benefit comes from the libs rather than the core language? 16:45:11 it doesn't seem like it'd be hard to reimplement the latter 16:46:19 surprisingly, it seems that it's the other way around 16:46:29 really? 16:46:33 the semantics don't seem overly complex. 16:46:47 olegfink: of course, i know the paradigm is powerful 16:46:54 at least while quite a lot of smart people like K, there isn't any implementation 16:47:02 huh? 16:47:10 there isn't any implementation? 16:47:12 one reason maybe it that the existing one is good enough for them. :-) 16:47:16 ah 16:47:23 that is, except the official one 16:47:32 olegfink: it's just a question of, if you reimplemented the core language and not the libs, people wouldn't use it 16:47:43 because it'd be, while a powerful paradigm, not very useful 16:47:45 right? 16:47:55 you see, the most surprising thing is that there aren't any "libs" 16:48:03 the gui, f'instance 16:48:04 kdb 16:48:10 that is, there is a lot of stuff people use on the internet, but it's not standard 16:48:12 kdb -- yes 16:48:18 the gui is built-in 16:48:24 i'm just trying to figure out if/why a foss would be hard/impractical 16:48:38 i mean, ok, so there's no libs 16:48:41 but that just means the core language is big 16:48:44 that's a question I keep wondering about for almost a year now. 16:48:44 e.g. the gui 16:48:52 *a foss reimplementation 16:48:56 yes, the gui is about 60% of the implementation 16:48:56 can't go around dropping words. 16:49:01 right 16:49:10 and without the gui, it wouldn't be nearly as useful, i gather 16:49:31 unfortunately a reimplementation would be almost possible unless you're a k guru since all you have is a binary blob... 16:49:35 unless the docs are really precise 16:49:47 -!- Asztal has quit (Success). 16:50:03 yeah, and then comes the question why the said 'k gurus' don't reimplement it. 16:50:21 ok, kref.pdf is ridiculously long 16:50:23 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:50:23 e.g. the nsl.com owner, who has created a few dozen k-like languages /in k/ 16:50:37 olegfink: better things to do i guess 16:51:01 they're on supported platforms, don't want to change the language in ways that require the source and have a copy of the impl & manual 16:51:04 when I asked him about it he said that the implementation doesn't matter, ideas do 16:51:23 well, actually I guess he has the source as well. :-) 16:51:25 well that's a wonderful philosophical yammering but doesn't change the reality of what the closed-sourceness limits :P 16:51:30 and yeah, exactly 16:51:35 closed source seems fine from the inside 16:51:48 -!- pikhq__ has joined. 16:51:49 olegfink: probably also a question of loyalty to kx 16:52:46 at least, seems that way to me 16:53:04 yeah, that's what I figured, but the question is harder than that -- there is a now-opensource a+ which is a k predecessor and shares many features with it 16:53:12 i looked at a+ 16:53:14 and basically noone seems to be interested in it 16:53:16 frankly the code looks ugly 16:53:18 as in 16:53:19 the A+ code 16:53:20 not the impl 16:53:27 and it seems to lack things like the gui 16:53:48 olegfink: I think the people who would use A+ use J instead 16:53:55 I don't see a single reason to use A+ instead of J 16:54:23 source availability again? :-) 16:54:44 olegfink: but nobody seems to care about that :\ 16:54:46 I can't say there aren't any places in K I wouldn't like to tweak a bit 16:54:48 at least not in this circle 16:55:13 i'm tempted to try reimplementing K 16:55:26 might be a nice way to learn it ;-) 16:55:41 K's gui does look like the nicest way to hack a quick UI up on current systems 16:56:01 although if I wanted something polished, i.e. not just something for me and a few others to quickly jab at, i'd always hand-craft it on current systems 16:56:10 yeah, that's what my friend and me are doing for the last year or so, however, we're currently mostly doing K code than implement K 16:56:29 if you want, come join us 16:56:41 where? :P 16:57:09 unfortunately we mostly do xmpp 16:57:23 i have a google talk account, though adium's chat support is lacking. 16:57:32 ooh 16:57:33 yeah, we use a MUC :-( 16:57:35 olegfink: colloquy does xmpp! 16:57:43 as well as SILC and some ancient protocol called ICB 16:57:46 so xmpp is fine 16:57:53 okay 16:58:17 though I'm not sure how you do a MUC on another server with xmpp 16:58:43 your client should have an explicit option for that 17:00:56 with the C implementation we just hit a wall because we apparently needed something cooler than CPP 17:01:54 olegfink: something more than cpp? have you SEEN arthur whitney's j prototype? :D 17:02:14 -!- oklopol has joined. 17:02:16 seen, read and -i hope- understood 17:02:26 as well as some amount of a+ and j7 code. 17:02:28 after de-cppization you can sort of understand it IME 17:02:45 I'd probably go crazy and write it in Haskell or Scheme 17:02:49 (j7 is an old source-available version of J) 17:02:49 because why not?!?! 17:02:55 we tried SML 17:03:28 got stuck because it lacked high-order polymorphism and so there was boilerplate all over the code 17:03:37 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:03:41 well, haskell would be slow, K is fast ;-) 17:03:44 haskell has polyhistomorphic functors up the wazoo! 17:03:46 olegfink: HEY! 17:03:48 Haskell ain't slow. 17:03:53 ghc's pretty sufficiently smart 17:04:13 -!- oklokol has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:04:13 -!- lament has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:04:13 -!- fizzie has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:06:17 olegfink: Unless your definition of slow is "slightly slower than C", Haskell is pretty fast. 17:06:42 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:06:57 -!- ehird has joined. 17:07:04 olegfink: you'll have to repeat your last /msg or two 17:07:06 client crashed 17:07:20 olegfink: Unless your definition of slow is "slightly slower than C", Haskell is pretty fast. 17:07:26 That's what thou missed. 17:07:46 pikhq: K as in a marketed solution pretty much depends on gcc sse vectorisations, so sorry, we need you beloved for(;;) loops. 17:08:06 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 17:08:07 olegfink: haskell has smart vectorisation actually. 17:08:42 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:08:53 -!- ehird has joined. 17:08:56 ehehehehe 17:09:00 you have to repeat your last /msg again :-( 17:09:06 * ehird deletes all contacts from gtalk 17:09:10 maybe my client won't crash then 17:09:46 -!- lament has joined. 17:10:04 ehird: just use bitlbee with your irc client 17:10:19 too much work. I'll just make a jabber.org account 17:10:23 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:10:49 wow, that was easy 17:10:54 username, password, repeat password, captcha 17:10:56 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:11:11 -!- pikhq has joined. 17:11:14 -!- oklokol has joined. 17:11:14 -!- fizzie has joined. 17:11:58 -!- pikhq__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:12:38 -!- fizzie` has joined. 17:12:38 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:16:22 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 17:16:55 -!- cmeme has quit (wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 17:17:05 -!- cmeme has joined. 17:21:59 olegfink: how fast IS k btw? 17:22:20 i get the impression it's basically going at the speed of light wrt the bog-standard vector operation 17:22:29 and deriving any speed benefits from that 17:22:39 (can it run on a gpu? :)) 17:24:06 -!- oklokol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 17:25:09 usually k has the same speed as good C code 17:25:27 that's for the very reason of it being a thin wrapper around good C array processing code 17:25:37 I saw people run Q with CUDA 17:26:04 that is, implementing K functions in C is very easy 17:26:25 yeah, the issue is when you do something that isn't really an array 17:26:32 Mmkay, so K gets you good data parallelism. 17:26:41 ( yeah, we can't do all these things: nothing) 17:27:46 Of course, data parallelism is not hard to do well. 17:28:04 pikhq_: Is that a vaguely dressed diss of K I see before me?! 17:28:13 -!- pikhq has quit (Connection timed out). 17:28:38 ehird: Not especially. Data parallelism does need to be done well. It's more a complaint about people focusing *soley* on that. 17:28:53 have you ever used an array language? 17:28:57 it's not for the performance 17:28:59 it's for the paradigm 17:29:15 they are genuinely pleasant to use 17:29:30 Well, yeah; K seems to focus on making it very clear what the code's doing, and it just happens to get good performance. 17:30:10 errr 17:30:13 K is very, very implicit 17:30:25 at least by my reading. 17:30:50 ehird: ... Algorithmically. 17:30:56 no, though 17:31:02 K's algorithms are all internal 17:31:03 k isn't that large, but it's difficult to read unless you know all the syntax 17:31:07 unless i'm reading it very wrongly 17:31:13 i never really see actual K algorithms 17:31:15 Erm. I'm saying this wrong. 17:31:16 it does them for you 17:31:27 http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/read.k is still one of my favourite pieces of code to date 17:32:02 Making it clear that you're, say, "doing vector operations foo bar and baz to vectors 1 through 3", I mean. 17:32:11 And I may just be sounding stupid right now. 17:32:12 pikhq_: vectors 1 through 3? 17:32:14 you mean "vectors" 17:32:22 vector operations? you mean regular operations? :P 17:32:25 olegfink: http://www.kx.com/a/k/examples/calc.k // am i reading this correctly as oop? 17:32:32 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 17:32:34 Well. Yes. 17:32:36 looks like it copies J's ugly of using strings as method bodies 17:32:47 ehird: nope 17:32:52 what're those strings then 17:33:03 you mean dots or what? 17:33:03 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:33:15 Anyways, it's trying to be like APL, without the need for a space cadet keyboard. 17:33:44 ehird: sorry? 17:33:52 calc.eval:"exp:5:. exp" 17:33:54 "" 17:34:04 pikhq_: no, that's j 17:34:13 ehird: I'm being dumb, then. 17:34:26 calc is a dictionary, that is a keyed table 17:34:35 what are the strings 17:34:44 an entry 'eval' has the given value 17:35:03 a string 17:35:05 why's it a string 17:35:07 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 17:35:26 in the K reference it is stated that when a data item is shown as a button its action is determined by evaluating its value 17:35:30 so it's the code to run 17:36:39 > 08:49:47 --- quit: Asztal (Success) 17:36:41 exp:5:. exp is something like "exp = show $ eval exp" in something like haskell 17:36:44 damn all these successful errors 17:37:00 er, something like something like. 17:37:20 There's an 'eval' function in Haskell? 17:37:21 olegfink: so, right, as a string 17:37:58 yeah, because k ui generally prefers strings over niladic functions 17:38:23 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 17:38:23 -!- jix_ has joined. 17:38:29 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:38:41 -!- ehird has joined. 17:39:28 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:44:22 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 17:47:38 -!- pikhq has quit ("Ĝis"). 17:50:32 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:52:38 -!- Asztal has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.1/20090707221522]"). 17:52:53 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:07:16 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie. 18:08:31 -!- Tenacity has left (?). 18:16:52 -!- Asztal has joined. 18:18:37 huh ewird 18:18:42 weird 18:19:21 the count of something is: something count or somethings count? 18:19:28 user count or users count? 18:19:41 "Users" 18:19:49 "User count" 18:20:01 but don't say that. 18:20:44 " but don't say that." ... why not? 18:20:50 sounds awkward. 18:21:23 Looks like I'm going to have to go figure out the people-who-find-that-phrasing-awkward count. 18:21:30 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:21:33 that's less awkward. 18:21:43 O_O 18:22:16 are you on drugs? 18:22:18 looks like it! 18:22:37 i'm on it 18:22:42 looks like drugs 18:22:55 i'm on like 18:22:59 looks drugs it 18:23:17 are drugs it? 18:23:23 the drugs look 18:23:25 like you look on 18:25:19 like drugs the 18:25:24 a a the drugs like the 18:25:39 i on the is the i'm it the looks 18:27:44 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 18:28:42 -!- Pthing has joined. 18:33:06 -!- coppro has joined. 18:38:16 this whole K look weird 18:38:29 no shit 18:42:20 huh 18:43:57 i'm thinking about buying Snow Leopard 18:48:36 it'll set you back all of less than 30bux 18:50:38 i wonder if it's worth it 18:50:55 yes 18:51:18 good 18:51:46 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 18:51:46 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 18:51:49 note: i haven't used it 18:52:08 but seriously, only an iphone user would consider $30 a lot for software, why in my day we had bbedit 18:52:10 and it cost $99 18:52:15 and we were happy, we were 18:52:43 yeah 18:56:40 `google bbedit 18:56:41 BBEdit 9. Bare Bones Software develops and publishes software for OS X, ... Get started with a look at BBEdit, our flagship editor or Yojimbo, ... \ www.barebones.com/ - [13]Cached - [14]Similar 18:56:55 GregorR-L: since System 6 iirc 18:57:00 the "canonical" macintosh code editor 18:57:08 People wrote code on System 6? 18:57:17 GregorR-L: People wrote code on System 1. :P 18:57:25 But, well, everything was plain text back then. 18:57:28 So, non-code too. 18:57:31 (unless it was word processed) 18:57:44 My boss at Intel, who previously worked at Apple, told horror stories of cross-compiling all their code from AIX workstations. 18:58:11 "AIX Version 1, introduced in 1986 for the IBM 6150 RT workstation" 18:58:21 This is in the PPC days, mind you. 18:58:22 "Release dateApril, 1988 (info)" — [[System 6]] 18:58:35 GregorR-L: yeah, ppc came in the system 7 days 18:58:42 Of this I am aware. 18:58:58 But if they were using AIX for PPC, I find it hard to believe they did everything natively on m68k :P 19:00:18 GregorR-L: I know that there have been programs written on System 6, for System 6, in its heyday. 19:00:41 Specifically, Mark Pilgrim's GPL'd (basically the only programs to be licensed that way at the time) apps. 19:00:42 I don't doubt it, I just find it terrifying :) 19:00:44 http://diveintomark.org/projects/classic/ 19:01:27 system 6 is quite capable 19:02:32 MPW 1.0 was apparently released in 1986, and I'm sure someone used it too. 19:02:53 what was that thing 19:02:54 codeworks 19:02:56 or whatever it was 19:03:32 I think CodeWarrior at least did some 68k stuff. 19:03:46 yes, that thing 19:03:49 also, urbandictionary confuses me 19:03:51 [[A word describing somebody who is uncomfortable being openly amiable and kind, so they give more subtle hints to their goodwill while maintaining a disagreeable exterior. See also. 19:03:51 That man spent the entire meal complaining to me about my service, and then he left me a $5 tip. He's totally aggressive passive.]] 19:03:57 * ehird 's brain explodes 19:04:41 -!- M0ny has quit. 19:04:43 ? 19:04:50 CodeWarrior people did a Symbian development system too. And something for the PlayStation. 19:05:24 "Even more amazing was the Macintosh Development System, an assembly-only tool that was Apple's very first tool for developing on the Mac (earlier Mac software was cross-developed on the Lisa). MDS will run on a Mac 512 with System 2!" 19:05:44 CodeWarrior was originally developed by Metrowerks based on a C compiler and environment for 68k, developed by Andreas Hommel and licensed to Metrowerks. The first versions of CodeWarrior targeted the PowerPC Macintosh, with much of the development done by a group from the original THINK C team. Much like THINK C, which was known for its fast compile times, CodeWarrior was faster than Macintosh Programmer's Workshop (MPW), the development tools written by App 19:05:49 → 19:05:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THINK_C 19:05:54 1986 grr 19:06:03 FireFly: lisa makes sense 19:06:03 err 19:06:05 fizzie: 19:06:06 MPW's free nowadays, which is nice. I installed some version on that Performa. 19:06:25 i tried to install it but it's distributed as 9348578934579345 separate files 19:06:27 for each component 19:07:59 The FTP site has single .img.bin files in addition to the Segmented_Image ".img_NNof24.bin" nonsense. At least for some parts. Don't remember how it was when I installed it. 19:08:15 exactly, a fuckton of .img.bin files 19:12:16 http://bellard.org/otcc/otcc.c man, this is nice 19:12:41 http://bellard.org/tcc/ non-obfuscated cousHOLY SHIT 19:12:47 The 64-bit guy who gave up just got a release! 19:12:55 "Thanks to Shinichiro Hamaji for this." 19:12:57 Dude. 19:12:59 That's shinh. 19:13:01 Wait whaaaaaaa 19:13:29 Shinh of anarchy golf revived tcc along with someone else :D 19:14:02 Schweet. 19:14:43 that otcc looks awesome 19:19:07 IOPCC 19:19:32 International Obfuscated Pascal Code Contest 19:19:37 wha 19:20:11 that should exist 19:20:14 well, IOCCC looks awesome 19:20:28 Program WhatTheFuck(Input, Output); 19:20:38 program W(I,O); 19:20:49 uses crt 19:21:02 oh 19:21:07 IOBCC 19:21:12 i was going by very old pascal here 19:21:13 International Obfuscated Bash Code Contest 19:21:28 oerjan, oh 19:22:50 I was thinking of a Piet interpreter in obfuscated C :P 19:23:09 but that'd be too big 19:23:57 Oh wait 19:24:04 a C obfuscator in obfuscated C, maybe 19:24:16 Why didn't anyone do thatr 19:24:18 do that* 19:25:16 Then I could run the C obfuscator through a C beautifer and use my C obfuscator on the result so we can see if it's better or worse than human work 19:25:25 ...That makes sense in a very nonsensical way 19:26:11 well, i'm not the first one to request pascal 19:26:11 http://www.nabble.com/Silly-Syntax-Games-td171449.html 19:30:57 s w(h) e. 19:31:06 this is a hello world in obfuscated-ish pascal 19:31:16 i'd wager you weren't 19:33:31 what? 19:33:36 whar do you mean 19:37:23 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager 19:38:41 pascal's wager must have been a troll 19:38:44 it's so hilariously wrong 19:39:40 in fact it was posthumous 19:39:59 posthumorous 19:40:02 it was not humorous at all 19:46:36 a very grave matter indeed 19:46:47 * oerjan hides 19:47:01 i wonder why there aren't virtual machines that can change their memory allocation dynamically according to need. 19:55:15 -!- asiekierka has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:56:29 I'm not sure what you mean by that; if you just mean adding/removing memory allocated to a particular quest system, at least Xen and I think KVM can do that for Linux guests with the "balloon" driver. 19:57:34 quest system 19:58:02 Yes. They're operating systems that are on a sort of a vision quest. 19:58:34 -!- MigoMipo_ has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 19:59:02 fizzie: i meant automatically 19:59:03 like 19:59:08 if it's using n megs, it gets n+a little megs 19:59:09 instead of 19:59:11 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:59:14 oh this vm wants umm 573 mb 19:59:19 oops i ran out of fake memory 19:59:47 i still don't get it 19:59:52 i probably never will 20:00:06 fortunately i'm not the one being talked to, because i'm being inactive 20:00:09 Given that there's the mechanisms for dynamically changing the memory amounts, I'm sure someone has rigged up some sort of automatic system. 20:02:00 The "Running Xen" book says "If a user desired an automatic policy for memory management, one could be written without much trouble" and then some ideas about scripting one, but maybe it hasn't been implemented. 20:03:06 VMware ESX apparently (haven't used it) has some sort of system where you define minimum, maximum and percentage shares for all machines, and then it periodically samples those machines and steals memory from machines not using it, and gives it to heavily loaded ones. 20:05:47 xen isn't acceptable 20:05:50 i'm running other oses 20:06:06 basically running server ubuntu, mounting os x dirs, hiding it then sshing in 20:06:08 = linux emulator 20:23:17 huh? 20:24:16 nooga: why huh 20:24:55 nothing 20:25:07 ..... 20:25:09 then why say why 20:25:10 err 20:25:11 then why say huh 20:26:11 is it possible to run separate OSes on multi-core processor so that they feel as if ran on single computer? 20:26:25 ... 20:26:28 nooga doesn't know what a vm is. 20:26:35 no no no 20:26:56 nooga: modern vms run the instructions directly on your hardware 20:26:56 i don't want to run lilnux in a vm that is a program in OS X's user space 20:26:57 with VT-e 20:27:07 and this happens in kernel spac 20:27:07 e 20:27:13 i want to run linux and OS X parallel 20:27:13 the only emulated part is the devices 20:27:19 ↑, you're being stupid 20:27:20 ah 20:27:23 :P 20:27:29 yes i know i'm stupid 20:27:37 nooga: you could make an OS that optimises the shit out of the devices part and only runs a vm 20:27:40 that would be nice and fast 20:28:41 i thought there is some thin layer that allows to boot several OSes at once and keep them running on separate cores sharing ram and shit 20:29:18 that's just a "VM OS" running multiple vms with uber-optimised virtual devices (can't get around that) 20:29:25 with dynamic memory allocation, I guess 20:29:53 it could be done by hardware :D 20:32:08 not really 20:32:14 hardware doesn't do task switching, either 20:32:18 and we don't complain about the performance of that 20:32:28 it's just that VM products have to route the virtual devices through an existing OS 20:32:35 which adds a lot of overhead 20:32:36 -!- ehird has left (?). 20:32:41 -!- ehird has joined. 20:32:42 oops 20:36:10 hm 20:38:37 i've got PC and mac and 2 lcd displays, it'd be cool to place the displays next to each other and use one keyboard and mouse, like i'm moving mouse cursor from one screen to another (from OS X to linux, for instance) and keyboard automagically changes focus + ability to drag files from one desktop to another would be nice 20:39:19 i'm sure it's possible with a piece of clever hardware and relatively simple software on both machines 20:39:53 Or, just one slightly-more-clever piece of software. 20:40:50 yep 20:41:18 liek connecting input devices to one computer and writing network based mouse+kbd driver for the second computer 20:41:49 Oooooooor .. http://synergy2.sf.net/ 20:41:53 oh 20:41:58 i knew it 20:42:31 -!- ski__ has joined. 20:43:53 it's such a good idea that it had to be done ;D 20:44:38 I've been using Synergy2 for that lately; earlier I used a VNC client I wrote that did not fetch display updates at all, just sent keyboard and mouse events, but that had some video-related problems. 20:44:45 There would be advantages to the hardware/software version. 20:50:02 uhm 20:52:12 -!- ehird has quit. 20:53:47 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 20:57:06 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:02:15 -!- coppro has joined. 21:29:48 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:43:04 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 21:46:07 Attack of the pikhqs! 21:50:26 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Nick collision from services.). 21:50:27 -!- MigoMipo_ has joined. 21:50:37 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:50:48 wow 21:50:52 lolcats are over a hundred years old 21:51:15 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/AntiqueLolcat.jpg 21:51:19 -!- MigoMipo_ has changed nick to MigoMipo. 21:51:23 a postcard from 1905 21:51:27 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 21:51:35 That's not a lolcat :P 21:51:47 If it was, it'd say "WHERE R MY DIN-DIN" 21:52:08 well remember 21:52:12 this was a more civilized time 21:52:15 lol 21:52:16 before the breakdown of kitty grammar 21:53:47 lol a cat 21:54:04 This is your father's grammar, for a more... civilized age. 21:54:25 is that some kinda reference to something 21:54:25 fizzie: NO QUOTING XKCD 21:54:35 oklopol: It's the Star Wars, you may have heard of it. 21:54:47 Nope, it's xkcd now :P 21:54:55 I totally forgot that that was a reference >_> 21:55:03 I guess they stole it; though the parentheses thing wasn't original in xkcd either. 21:55:06 i actully do vaguely remember seeing something like that on xkcd 21:55:08 At least I think it wasn't. 21:55:40 what was the context in sw 21:55:54 oklopol: It's about Luke's father's lightsaber. 21:56:02 Which is a more elegant weapon than some clumsy blaster. 21:56:18 The Obi-Wan guy's presenting it to Luke. 21:56:22 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:56:23 err, is it "*from* a more..."? 21:56:50 "Your father's light saber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age." 21:57:11 Well, if you trust IMDb. 21:57:31 rights. 21:57:39 i find it funny that obi wan talks about blaster randomness 21:57:51 who's obi wan again 21:57:53 and the storm trooper blasters are notorious for being compeltely random 21:57:53 It seems I misspelled "light saber", though. 21:58:15 oklopol: He's the "old mentor" guy, you must know the type. 21:58:26 yeah, hes the obiwan of starwars 21:58:52 so is he yoda 21:58:56 no no 21:59:01 yoda is the yoda of star wars 21:59:15 i see what you're doing there! 21:59:17 ...stop it 21:59:18 Then who was phone? 21:59:29 There's the famous part in the first movie about "only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise", when they for the remaining part of the saga can't hit the broad side of a barn. 21:59:34 http://lh3.ggpht.com/haymansbeard/RrFkGaI8arI/AAAAAAAAAI4/QdCbNRmw-ag/s512/Obi+Wan+Kenobi+01+Large.JPG << obiwan 21:59:36 http://www.classesandcareers.net/education-careers/wp-content/uploads/yoda.jpg << yoda 21:59:53 You can tell them apart by the colour. 22:00:03 ah that dude 22:00:06 oi, dont be racist 22:00:14 also i do in fact remember yoda 22:00:25 Talked funnily did he. 22:00:29 i remember all things except human faces 22:00:30 Judge them not by the color of their skin, but the content of their character judge them by. 22:00:34 yes he did fizzie 22:00:36 but not like that :D 22:00:50 *talk? 22:00:53 Well, I didn't want to be a plagiarist. 22:01:06 OSV, fizzie 22:01:07 his syntax was mostly OSV 22:01:12 but not entirely 22:01:30 language log has a whole slew of posts on yoda grammar 22:01:43 so... it'd be "he talked funnily"? 22:01:50 no 22:01:53 >_< 22:01:54 That's SVO 22:02:00 funnily is O? 22:02:02 funnily he talked, hmmMMMmm? 22:02:11 no its not O 22:02:31 maybe. 22:02:40 THEN I GUESS YOU WERE NOT BEING 100% TRUTHISHFULL THERE HUH 22:02:50 gregor wasnt, at least 22:02:56 i said "but not entirely" :D 22:03:01 :) 22:03:09 It's effectively the object. Object doesn't always imply noun. 22:03:12 but it is true that he can be OSV and still do that sort of thing 22:03:14 At least in grammar it doesn't. 22:03:21 GregorR-L: its actually not really an object 22:03:42 GregorR: so not the object 22:03:49 its an adverbial modifier 22:03:49 your mom is more of an object 22:03:57 If the original sentence was "he funnily talked", then "funnily" would be an adverbial modifier. 22:04:07 no gregor 22:04:14 its an adverbial in both cases 22:04:26 and in fact "he funnily talked" is rather bad 22:04:41 manner adverbials prefer to follow the VP in english 22:05:13 Grammar, Gregor hates. 22:05:21 now THAT is an object. :) 22:05:41 -!- pikhq__ has joined. 22:05:53 he funnily talked himself out of the situation; he talked funnily during it 22:05:58 err 22:06:03 no i guess that's not right. 22:06:29 "he funnily talked ..." sounds more like a parenthetical to me 22:06:33 as in like 22:06:43 "he funnily enough talked himself out of the situation! haha :D" 22:06:44 "funnily enough, he ..."? 22:06:46 right. 22:07:55 anyway, i just tried to make a "funnily enough", you make me so self-conscious of my not being native that everything feels incorrect 22:08:19 aww dont worry oklopol 22:08:37 its your incorrectnesses that enrich english 22:09:26 discussing grammar, are you? 22:09:29 most clearly that must be true 22:09:40 oerjan: indeed we are 22:09:47 grammar you are discussing, mmhmmmmm? 22:09:57 no oklopol 22:10:01 again bad yoda talk 22:10:05 oerjan's was correct 22:10:09 hey. i just know what you give me 22:10:21 it was? 22:10:23 yes 22:10:38 i thought i swapped are and you 22:10:44 my point was mostly that your VSO sounded stupid in that one 22:10:44 you did that too, but its a question 22:10:49 err 22:10:50 sorry 22:10:51 and english has subject-auxiliary inversion in questions 22:10:53 mispermuted 22:11:02 yoda's grammar doesn't, afaik, change that 22:11:07 ah. 22:12:12 http://www.google.com/cse?cx=001269089414569134552%3Aqvjtfauf7ou&ie=UTF-8&q=yoda&sa=Search 22:13:01 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:13:05 -!- puzzlet has joined. 22:13:46 -!- pikhq has joined. 22:13:57 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:28:09 -!- pikhq__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:28:44 hey 22:28:49 i can see the th-character now 22:28:52 it's like magix 22:29:11 the thorn? 22:29:37 yes 22:29:39 exactly 22:30:46 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 22:43:46 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:50:19 -!- pikhq__ has joined. 22:53:38 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:00:19 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 23:00:49 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 23:10:31 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 23:14:02 -!- pikhq__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:28:23 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 23:41:58 -!- ehird has joined. 23:43:17 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:43:32 -!- ehird has joined. 23:44:35 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 2009-08-11: 00:02:25 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 00:03:34 -!- nooga has quit (Success). 00:05:53 -!- olsner has quit ("Leaving"). 00:08:38 -!- Pthing has quit ("Leaving"). 00:08:55 -!- Pthing has joined. 00:22:41 -!- jix_ has quit ("leaving"). 00:22:54 -!- jix has joined. 00:28:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:34:10 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:42:39 -!- amca has joined. 00:43:40 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:43:45 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 00:52:40 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:10:56 -!- Asztal has quit ("."). 01:47:26 -!- GregorR-L_ has joined. 01:48:51 -!- GregorR-L has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:51:33 -!- coppro has joined. 01:56:07 http://codu.org/pics/main.php?cmd=imageview&var1=Assorted%2FGregorInPink.jpg I'm so classy 01:56:22 homo 01:56:31 Don't you wish 01:56:44 no 01:56:47 too femme 01:57:29 I see, you're more into bears then :P 01:58:13 more just 01:58:17 not all pink 01:59:40 Well, all pink isn't my USUAL thing, in fact I only have one pink shirt, one pink tie and one pink hat. I just decided to wear them all together today :P 02:00:08 came over a little queer 02:00:15 we're all queer here. 02:02:20 GregorR-L_: Out of curiosity, do any "god hates fags" people come to your university? 02:02:30 What, Purdue? 02:02:42 I haven't seen any, but at the same time it's hardly PSU. 02:02:51 -!- GregorR-L_ has changed nick to GregorR-L. 02:03:09 (I mean, it is Indiana :P ) 02:03:21 They've come to mine. 02:03:30 What, Westboro? 02:03:35 Have gay sex in front of them. 02:03:37 Purdue is the only big-ten university without a "queer resource center". 02:03:39 ehird: Not them specifically. 02:03:43 Other, smaller groups. 02:03:46 Do it anyway. 02:04:01 There's more gay guys at my school than there are girls at all... 02:04:14 (this, though funny-sounding, is not hard to pull off) 02:04:30 pikhq: Then in terms of maximum utilization of social resources, your choice is clear. 02:12:32 GregorR-L: Hahah. 02:12:53 Gay rationality! 02:12:59 Gaytionality. 02:16:13 pikhq: Which school is this, btw? I forget. 02:16:38 GregorR-L: Missouri University of Science and Technology. 02:16:51 It's not so much that it's a gay haven as it is a not-female haven. 02:16:55 Right. 02:17:17 That being said, smart girls are HOT. 02:17:26 Agreed. 02:56:27 -!- amca has quit ("Farewell"). 03:00:21 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 03:12:01 -!- coppro has joined. 03:12:11 -!- coppro has quit (Client Quit). 03:14:06 -!- ehird has quit. 03:51:32 -!- GregorR-L has quit ("Leaving"). 03:57:21 Finally, Playstation emulation that doesn't irritate me. 03:59:06 Helps having a Playstation controller. 05:10:45 lol, gamer 06:12:51 -!- Asztal has joined. 07:17:52 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:19:49 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:27:33 -!- olsner has joined. 07:38:33 -!- asiekierka has joined. 07:38:35 hi 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:14:01 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:15:20 -!- FireFly has joined. 08:27:58 -!- waga has joined. 08:37:14 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:47:59 -!- waga has left (?). 09:00:02 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:04:46 i'm working on my obfuscated Pascal BF interpreter 09:09:49 agh i'm stuck lol 09:10:48 lol 09:10:50 i've done it 09:11:43 Or at least 09:11:47 I've thought I've done so 09:25:41 []++++++++++[>>+>+>++++++[<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<+<+++>>>-]<<<<-][]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]] 09:25:43 ...wtf 09:25:51 that's what my interpreter shows while running this code 09:25:59 []++++++++++[>>+>+>++++++[<<+<+++>>>-]<<<<-] 09:25:59 "A*$";?@![#>>+<<]>[>>]<<<<[>++<[-]]>.>. 09:27:14 yay, i've fixed it 09:27:28 BUT it outputs an I 09:27:30 and not an H 09:28:52 also quine.b gives me weird trash at the end 10:40:56 -!- asiekierka has quit. 10:53:28 -!- nooga has joined. 10:56:13 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:01:53 Woot, I understood almost half of the introduction of fizzie's thesis presentation 11:03:28 well if it was in finnish, then you still beat most of us 11:04:01 It was in English 11:04:17 THEN YOU ARE JUST STUPID 11:05:21 Meh 11:05:44 Well, at least I know what fizzie looks like now 11:05:54 I can stalk him around the campus 11:06:01 yay 11:14:37 where? 11:14:53 i(s the thesis) 11:15:12 Possibly nowhere 11:15:33 indeed, it is quite conceivable that he didn't manage to finish it ;D 11:15:36 4what is it about? 11:15:44 "Methods for Spectral Envelope Estimation in Noise Robust Speech Recognition" 11:15:53 oh sh 11:16:02 i hate signals 11:17:11 no longer will the computer be able to say "I can't hear you, la la la la" 11:24:41 longer computer will say you be able to hear the la la la la, no i can't 11:29:47 ahh 11:29:57 regexps look so eso 11:30:26 text.gsub!(/\/\/.*$/," ") 11:30:26 text.gsub!(/\/\*.*?\*\//m," ") 11:30:27 text.gsub!(/^\s*(#\s*(.*\\\n)*.*$)/," ") 11:30:29 cla = text.scan(/^\s*(class|struct)\s+(\w+)(?:\s*:\s*(protected|public|private)?\s*(\w+))?/) 11:48:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:52:08 -!- Deewiant has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:55:48 -!- oerjan has quit ("Gah internet molasses!"). 13:09:22 I still don't know what Deewiant looks like, though I guess I can sort of eliminate, given that I knew most of the other people there. 13:09:29 On the other hand I'm terrible at remembering faces. 13:09:50 They should stamp ID numbers over the faces of everyone I ought to know. 13:20:38 -!- coppro has joined. 13:20:41 -!- Sgeo has joined. 13:22:41 -!- Deewiant has joined. 13:24:38 root is so rude, always rebooting machines when you least expect it 13:25:06 fizzie: I was next to the guy next to you 13:26:28 Okay, that's what I thought. I think. I probably won't recognize you the next time I see you, so maybe it doesn't matter that much. 13:30:25 heh 13:33:01 I also went and wrote that "kypsyysnäyte" thing. 13:33:22 Lit. translated, "ripeness sample". 13:38:06 ilold 13:39:14 guys chat on the same # for years, they go to the same univeristy and they don't bother to meet irl 13:39:30 Oh, and the thesis is nowhere yet, though I think we commonly put those to the web after they've been graded and accepted. 13:39:49 What's "we" here 13:39:59 The authors, right? 13:40:07 I.e. the school doesn't do that 13:40:39 The school doesn't, yes. I just think at least some of the people in the lab have theirs on their personal pages. 13:40:59 Yeah, people do that. 13:41:13 Currently the thesis is in the hands of the professor for final comments before the bind-to-book part. 13:41:35 Or "books". Should figure out how many copies I need, actually. 13:42:02 "Methods for Spectral Envelope Estimation in Noise Robust Speech Recognition" <<< Deewiant: did you understand the spectral envelope estimation half or the noise robust speech recognition half? 13:42:19 Neither 13:42:42 I understood half of the "speech recognition" fifth 13:42:54 But it was maybe about half of the introduction 13:44:02 and here i thought you knew everything 13:44:15 The presentation wasn't really very polished, I just took the conference thing (which didn't really have much of a speech recognition introduction; being the Nth presentation in a speech recognition conference, I thought people might be a bit bored of it) and quickly slapped something on, without practicing how to utter it. 13:44:47 I guess I could do a more followable speech recognition presentation, but that thesis-lecture is officially just 20 minutes and I had to fit the whole thesis in it too. 13:45:26 The slide-PDF had 28 pages already, that's not in the suggested range for a 20 minute show. 13:45:31 Yes, that's of course not the point 13:45:39 what's spectral envelope estimation? something like guessing what spectum is enough for getting all the relevant frequencies? 13:45:41 I think you spent a bit more than 20 minutes anyway 13:45:51 Yes, I hear most people do. 13:46:14 They're not very strict about it, of course 13:47:39 oklopol: http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/speechspec.png <-- that's a speech spectrum and an envelope estimate. 13:48:02 well let me give it an understanding 13:48:09 What's an envelope 13:48:17 Aside from something you put paper in 13:48:44 so basically you the envelop the fft 13:48:50 "b. Electr. Engineering. A curve formed by joining the successive peaks of a graph of an oscillation, esp. a modulated wave." 13:49:01 That's close to the sense. 13:49:12 Yeah, well that's pretty obvious from the pic 13:49:21 I guess I meant to ask what it's good for 13:50:36 Well, for speech that comb-like peaky structure comes from the excitation source, which looks like a pulse train, while the shape of the envelope comes from the resonances in the vocal tract. 13:51:31 And since what distinguishes the meaningful sounds is the vocal tract part (the comb structure is pretty much just about the speaking pitch and prosody and so on) it makes sense to use a nice envelope estimate instead of the spectrum itself. 13:52:05 Okay, cool 13:52:29 alright, but what exactly is the excitation source? 13:53:04 If you want to talk physics, it's the periodic airflow through the glottis. 13:54:19 so basically what happens @ vocal chords 13:56:33 Yes. 13:56:59 People have been modeling the glottal pulse shape, too, it's a sort of a half-sine hump. 13:57:39 would a half-sine hump result in a pulsey fft? 13:59:10 If it's a periodic sequence of humps, yes. Though the peaks aren't then impulses, like they would be for the idealized impulse-train-excitation case. 14:04:16 "the peaks aren't then impulses"? 14:05:09 do you mean they are not just single points, but wider? 14:09:04 Yes. In the very horribly much idealized model the excitation source is an impulse train, the vocal tract is an all-pole filter, and the resulting spectrum is a pure line spectrum, with just single points at the harmonic frequencies, with the envelope shape determined by the vocal tract filter. 14:09:11 Of course that's not at all how it works. 14:10:33 One glottal pulse approximation I've seen looks like g[n] = { 1/2*(1-cos(pi*n/N1)), 0 <= n < N1; cos(pi*(n-N1)/(2*N2)), N1 <= n <= N1+N2; 0 elsewhere }. I guess I could FFT a couple of those to see what the spectrum looks like. 14:19:36 http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/train.png -> http://www.cis.hut.fi/htkallas/spec.png (Please don't ask me to explain the slope.) 14:21:15 train is that g[n] thing right? 14:21:38 Yes. 14:21:47 just making sure 14:22:05 spec is the log-scale (dB in the Y axis, actually) magnitude spectrum. 14:23:34 what does the idealized impulse train look like, unfft'd? 14:26:13 wait wait i think i confused a few terms in what you said earlier 14:26:28 i'm quite slow at getting into things 14:27:05 An impulse train looks like, well, the same except for impulses. Something like g[n] = { 1 if n = 0 (mod T0); 0 elsewhere } with a suitable period T0 for the fundamental frequency you want. 14:27:33 Okay, so that g[n] I gave was just the shape of one of the humps. 14:28:27 was there some name for the two realms, fft'd and unfft'd sound kinda stupid. 14:28:51 Time and spectral domains. 14:29:19 i'm only familiar with the technical details of dft, i'm assuming the terms wouldn't quite mix 14:29:21 alright 14:29:22 Or the other way around. 14:29:35 well yes, ofc 14:30:54 -!- AnMaster has joined. 14:31:08 anyway i guess i was asking what the ideal impulse train looks like in spectral domain, you may have told me already 14:32:29 or is that even well-defined 14:32:57 It should look like an impulse train in the spectral domain too, though with the T0 distance replaced with the corresponding F0. At least that's how it's been talked about. 14:32:58 i guess it might be the limit of some infinite spectrum, but maybe i'll wait for the answer 14:33:08 oh 14:33:18 is there a simple relation? 14:33:24 like F0 = 1/T0 14:33:29 Yes. Like that. 14:33:37 interesting. 14:33:51 I'm not sure if the peaks have a defined value, actually. 14:34:07 should that obvious? 14:34:09 i mean 14:34:12 F0 = 1/T0 14:34:31 Defined height, I mean. 14:34:43 oh? 14:34:47 For a really periodic, infinite sequence, I guess the height could be infinite. But speech people are horrible mathematicians and don't care about that sort of stuff. 14:35:05 yes, i can imagine 14:35:36 I'll check the Rabiner book, he's usually quite formal. 14:36:02 you can be precise without being formal 14:36:23 The single good thing about thesis work is that I have (temporarily, from the library) a pile of the five classical speech textbooks for looking up "trivial" common-knowledge sort of things from. 14:36:26 although i'm not sure what the point of saying that was 14:37:31 you don't read speech literature 14:37:32 ? 14:37:57 I haven't justifiticated buying the books myself, no. 14:39:14 Yes, the DTFT of the signal does not theoretically speaking exist; the mathematical treatment of the book uses the "engineering DTFT". 14:40:55 I mean, obviously it doesn't exist, since you have to have $\sum_{-\infty}^\infty \left| x(n) \right| < \infty$ if you want $x(n)$ to have a DTFT. 14:42:21 i don't know what left and right do in tex 14:42:32 just some kinda alignment? 14:42:55 "\left| x(n) \right|" is just a way to say "| x(n) |" so that TeX knows the |s pair up around x(n), and can spacify them sensibly. 14:43:11 also you can't dtft an infinitely occurring pulse? 14:43:17 ohh 14:44:03 i completely ignored | as a random tex character, but i now realize i've finally reverse-engineered the basic syntax and that doesn't fit it 14:44:30 err 14:44:45 actually i should probably ask what a dtft is :P 14:45:54 X(w) = infinite-sum-with-n of x(n) e^{-jwn}, where w wants to be the omega character when it grows up, j's the good old imaginary unit, and e's e. 14:46:54 That's the DTFT; I guess it doesn't converge very often. 14:48:18 Oh, and x(n) is continuous and infinite and all that fluff. 14:49:42 oh, mister omega? in dft omega is a primitive n'th root of unity, but i don't know what it is here 14:52:14 dft being discrete fourier transform, not sure it's obvious you know i mean tht 14:52:17 *that 14:52:55 Yes; the DFT is much nicer for an engineer, since it's just finite-length sequences and everything's so discrete. 14:54:28 X(w) = infinite-sum-with-n of x(n) e^{-jwn} <<< ah misread this as X(n), i now realize that doesn't even make sense 14:55:40 oh it's discrete-time fourier transform; so this is discrete already 14:55:54 The n time step is discrete. 14:56:03 The values of the signal are continuous, though. 14:56:03 ah 14:57:11 okay i think i see how that works now 14:59:48 sorry, phone 14:59:50 Anyway, since the DTFT tends to not exist, they use this "engineering DTFT" built out of Fourier series coefficients and Dirac delta functions, so you get infinite energy at the harmonic frequencies but the integral over the spectrum is still finite. 15:00:03 I'm not sure if that's a common approach or just a peculiarity of this book. 15:00:12 Signal processing is not my strongest subjects, ironically. 15:00:38 i was gonna say something, but i kinda lost my train of thought 15:01:31 drummer called to say he can't come to play metal with us, because he has to attend church 15:02:33 i'm not even going to ask for details 15:02:46 He is going to BURN the church, maybe. 15:03:18 i'd love to know signal processing, but that doesn't really fit my current degree 15:03:34 maybe 15:04:05 actually i'm not sure it's so much church, iltahartaus, however that translates, or whatever that means, at the army 15:04:14 -!- GregorR-L has joined. 15:04:55 atheists don't have to attend, but they don't have the evening free either 15:05:01 because that would be unfair 15:05:17 wtf conversation did I just step into? 15:05:35 it's about signal processing 15:05:48 Ngraargh. I have this tracking number for this mail package, and it seems they've decided to Screw Up(tm) with it. 15:06:31 i'm tlking about it with fizzie, as you can clearly see 15:06:36 The tracking system says "An irregularity has been observed in the processing of the package, delivery may be delayed". 15:08:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:16:06 i wonder if there's a programming system that runs ON iphone 15:16:30 I'll bet making it would violate the AUP in some stupid way :P 15:16:40 probably yes 15:17:26 i had cool spreadsheet with usable lisp on my symbian phone 15:17:41 but it was pain to write something with phone's keyboard 15:17:47 * GregorR-L wonders why a spreadsheet would have lisp built in ... 15:19:10 The spreadsheet program is a mode in emacs? 15:19:45 i don't know but it was nice 15:20:02 formulas were written in lisp 15:21:25 "Python on iPhone actually rather good", Nov 2008, http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2008-November/686098.html 15:22:04 probably it's python interpreter that runs programs written for iphone 15:22:07 not on iphone 15:23:39 What? No. "Install iPhone/Python (examples, the hello world is a PyObjC call into the iPhone API to load and scroll the contacts list in the phone)" 15:23:40 And so on. 15:24:30 " probably it's python interpreter that runs programs written for iphone" this makes NO SENSE 15:24:50 why? 15:26:24 GregorR-L: he means it only runs programs that are written with the iphone in mind 15:26:40 yup 15:26:51 well i was just joking, that makes no sense 15:26:54 :D 15:27:02 well duh 15:27:04 um 15:27:11 oh duh, well good. 15:28:00 okay 15:28:26 that python is probably a runtime environment for python programs that runs on iphone 15:28:38 what i want is development environment that runs on iphone 15:28:57 ;D 15:29:23 Sure, it "just runs Python programs", but you only need a text editor to write those python programs, and it's a development environment. 15:29:53 editing text on iphone sucks 15:30:19 Surely someone must have written a BF interpreter for the iPhone? 15:30:20 i imagine simpler, perhaps semi-visual editor for building programs 15:30:41 And eight buttons instead of lots means easier to hit them 15:31:02 FireFly: something like that, yep 15:31:18 You wouldn't mind that it's BF? 15:31:24 i would 15:31:35 "ibrainfsck: A native iPhone/iPod touch IDE for the brainfuck programming language." 15:31:48 "IDE" >_O 15:31:50 There, a programming IDE 15:32:17 If a GUI domain is made for PSOX, it would be possible to make a Brainfuck IDE in Brainfuck 15:32:30 wut? 15:32:46 Sgeo: IDE does not imply GUI. 15:33:13 GregorR-L: add bf debugger and voila 15:33:30 Hm, can't one make use of ANSI escapes with BF? 15:33:50 Egg-zactly ... though that just means you'd need a good terminal for iPhone 15:34:02 uhuh 15:34:08 that'd be hard 15:34:19 iphone keyboard SUCKS!!! amagad! 15:34:33 What?! You mean the commercials LIE?! 15:34:50 yes, yes it does 15:35:01 lack of tactile feedback = bad 15:35:19 Isn't there some sort of vibration-feedback thing?-) 15:35:22 `google openpandora 15:35:23 Also we now have a dedicated press relations guy, if you need anything press related please email chip@openpandora.org and he will do his best to make ... \ [13]BLOG - [14]Forums - [15]Developers - [16]Press area 15:35:36 WAY TO NOT GIVE A URL, HACKBOT 15:35:43 If even the iPhone keyboard sucks, I wonder how horrible those non-qwerty Android phones everyone seems to be making are. 15:35:44 ? 15:36:10 Oooh, are they FITALY? 15:36:27 I wouldn't mind a Dvorak keyboarded cellphone 15:36:34 FITALY DAMN IT FITALY 15:37:59 It's just a term they use for touch-screen-only things. 15:38:45 "various strokes (rather than taps) are used for both shifting case and selecting symbols." 15:39:06 Pie menu style? 15:39:29 I wonder if there's a Dasher thing for iPhone. 15:40:37 -!- ehird has joined. 15:41:28 * AnMaster installs Ubuntu in a vm 15:44:15 dasher is even usable 15:44:38 it is 15:44:51 dasher? 15:45:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dasher 15:48:28 nooga: dasher is even usable 15:48:28 ehird: it is 15:48:48 wow, that's probably the first time we agreed 15:48:51 oh right, I remember seeing that 15:50:51 Hm.. I think I've seen some input system like that in some DS homebrew 15:51:20 in what ds 15:51:25 -!- olegfink has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:51:43 Homebrew for the Nintendo DS 15:51:49 ah 15:52:08 Okay, not quite like that 15:52:28 i saw cool one 15:52:58 table with consonants, and when you click on choosen one - a pie menu with vowels appears 15:55:28 oh, there is a dasher for iphone 15:56:04 "People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the U.K., where the NHS would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless." 15:56:22 ... Correct me if I'm wrong, but... Isn't Stephen Hawking British? 15:56:54 lol 15:56:55 Yes 15:56:57 Yes he is. 15:57:16 Quoted-guy was confused by his computer's accent ;) 15:57:22 pikhq, where is that quote from 15:57:23 but he sits in USA? 15:57:30 nooga: No. 15:57:34 oh 15:57:35 AnMaster: Article on Reddit. 15:57:49 GregorR-L: Foiled by DECtalk again! 15:57:52 then i was confused by his computer's accent 15:58:07 He's at the University of Cambridge. 15:58:45 pikhq, DECtalk? 15:59:04 AnMaster: That's the name of his text-to-speech system. 15:59:21 It was, obviously, designed by DEC. 15:59:30 DEC sounds so retro 15:59:35 for some reason... 15:59:36 ;P 15:59:55 IIRC, it's on a small, battery-powered UNIX system in his wheelchair. 16:00:06 heh 16:00:15 pikhq, how does he interact with it I wonder 16:01:17 AnMaster: Don't recall. 16:02:30 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:02:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 16:10:15 -!- nooga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:18:37 I misread that as "in some DS hebrew", thought it to be some sort of Hebrew-localized input thing. 16:21:10 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 16:21:27 wow: http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/movies/EyeDasher.4800.mpg 16:21:43 anything that's non-qwerty can't be that bad 16:22:29 -!- Asztal has joined. 16:30:51 [16:00] AnMaster: pikhq, how does he interact with it I wonder 16:30:52 throat vibrations 16:31:10 wow 16:31:16 must be kind of painful 16:31:24 no, just slow 16:31:29 all his interviews are scripted 16:31:30 well yeah 16:31:36 ehird, heh? 16:31:37 in Q&A sessions he takes >20m to say a line 16:31:49 it's like 16:31:54 question? 16:32:00