00:02:45 -!- calamari has joined. 00:05:03 -!- MizardX- has joined. 00:05:11 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:05:34 -!- MizardX- has changed nick to MizardX. 00:06:35 -!- Pthing has joined. 00:48:31 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:55:22 -!- Sgeo has joined. 00:59:26 -!- oerjan has joined. 01:00:20 (I secretly wish that one day, the web will be almost entirely Flash-based, and you will be forced to resort to using: gopher; no electricity; no running water; no surrounding society. Am I a bad person?) 01:01:03 i'm afraid this will only lead to him making his own flash interpreter, probably together with zzo38. 01:02:21 probably based on gopher, though 01:02:27 yessir 01:03:08 ehird, http://bugs.python.org/issue1453http://bugs.python.org/issue1453 <-- your opinion? That issue exists in 3.1 too btw 01:03:21 my opinion is that you need to learn to paste URLs better 01:04:43 my impression from one of the comments was it was based on a misunderstanding, with the flag going to configure instead of cc 01:04:51 *make 01:05:39 -!- augur has joined. 01:06:47 also see the last comment 01:07:24 (on that page) 01:11:32 hey goise 01:21:15 bourgois(i)e 01:21:39 *+(e) 01:22:06 darn french who cannot spell 01:27:52 Burgwah 01:36:16 burgwah 01:36:16 lol 01:36:51 bO:R\zwazi: 01:36:58 Zwa** 01:37:23 -!- zzo38 has joined. 01:37:40 http://pastebin.ca/1554430 01:45:30 Ha, ha, it isn't about GameCube! Now push the Explode button and your TV will explode and money will come out. 01:45:31 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:49:06 * oerjan doesn't have an Explode button, and suspects that is fortunate. 02:10:51 * oerjan once again manages to write "proof reading" in an edit summary 02:13:07 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 02:26:34 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:48:01 -!- oerjan has joined. 04:56:40 -!- Asztal has joined. 05:25:47 -!- Dewi has left (?). 05:28:18 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:45:57 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:05:45 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 06:17:43 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:21:34 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 07:08:42 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 07:15:02 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:55:01 -!- kar8nga has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:48:02 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 09:02:55 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:18:04 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:24:01 -!- sebbu has joined. 09:34:54 my opinion is that you need to learn to paste URLs better <-- I blame synergy 09:35:09 my impression from one of the comments was it was based on a misunderstanding, with the flag going to configure instead of cc <-- yes but no one else does it like that 09:41:00 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:20:42 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:01:40 Deewiant, hm I think I finally found a way to make string pushing significantly faster in cfunge. Sadly it is only for x86 and x86-64 11:02:17 and I'm not sure if the env strings are usually as long as they are on my gentoo system that it would matter much elsewhere 11:52:41 -!- kar8nga has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:50:06 You using more asm? :-P 12:57:46 http://sites.google.com/site/ryanbroomfield/xkcd-sans-women 13:02:54 -!- M0ny has joined. 13:55:36 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:10:12 Deewiant, I'm considering doing it 14:10:34 -!- rodgort has quit (Client Quit). 14:10:37 Deewiant, btw how good are you at sed? 14:10:41 -!- rodgort has joined. 14:11:35 I'm wondering if there is any shorter way to write this in sed: sed '/^\//!d;s/\(.[ch]\)(\([0-9][0-9]*\)):/\1:\2:/;s/\(error\|remark\|warning\) #/\1: #/' 14:12:10 (btw it is supposed to convert ICC style diagnostic output into a format that some tools that expect GCC style can understand) 14:12:26 (oh and it actually works, just seems so messy) 14:21:50 Probably with "-r" you save a few backslashes -- just "(foo|bar|baz)" instead of "\(foo\|bar\|baz\)", though you need to escape the raw parens then -- but in general that looks a bit too simple to optimize much, unless you can combine those two s///s together (i.e. both are done on same lines). I don't quite know what the ICC output looks like. 14:23:11 And -r's not posix, of course. 14:23:40 (At least the 1003.1-2001 one.) 14:25:17 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("fe'o"). 14:27:19 Probably with "-r" you save a few backslashes -- just "(foo|bar|baz)" instead of "\(foo\|bar\|baz\)", though you need to escape the raw parens then -- but in general that looks a bit too simple to optimize much, unless you can combine those two s///s together (i.e. both are done on same lines). I don't quite know what the ICC output looks like. <-- hm right, they are indeed 14:27:47 Then you can maybe combine them, though it might not look any prettier that way. 14:28:19 as for -r, I doubt this will be useful on anything but linux. Or is ICC available for other platforms than windows and linux? 14:29:33 OS X, at least some versions at some point. 14:30:28 Oh, and there was some QNX thing too, but that can't be very popular. 14:36:07 fizzie, and it depends on absolute paths in the output, to detect the relevant lines (which is true by default for cmake projects, which is where I needed this) 14:39:07 If you just want those lines for which the s/// matches -- I mean, it already has that ".[ch](digits)" test to see relevant lines -- you can write something like "s///; t ok;d;: ok" to save the /^\//!d test, but it looks a bit crufty with the jump. 14:39:35 fizzie, the .ch bit was because there is (digits) sometimes later on the line too 14:39:49 .[ch] I mean 14:40:10 Yes, but it might be good enough to pick up relevant lines already with that. 14:45:26 fizzie, btw what would unlink(NULL); do? 14:45:37 I mean is it undef or just error? 14:46:14 I guess it should logically return EFAULT in errno, but I wouldn't maybe count on that. 14:46:26 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:46:57 I wonder what icc means with "warning #12331: function "chdir" is vulnerable to race conditions"... 14:47:07 -!- MizardX has joined. 14:50:26 Don't know; the only related race I can think of is in the "process creates a directory, then someone removes it and places a symlink to some existing wrong place, process then chdirs into the wrong place" case, but that's not so very chdir-related. 14:50:45 fizzie, btw do you know if this is well defined: if ((foo == NULL) || (function_not_checking_parameter_for_null_first(foo) == 1)) { return ERROR_CODE; } 14:50:57 In a process with multiple threads, all threads share the same chdir. 14:51:02 GregorR, ah right 14:51:18 Yes, I guess it could just be about that, but isn't that quite obvious. 14:51:20 GregorR, except this program uses no threads... 14:51:32 When I think "race condition", I think "threads", making that quite obvious. 14:51:43 (Although of course there are other non-thread race conditions out there :P ) 14:51:48 and since it is produced during link time optimisation it should know that pthreads aren't linked 14:52:13 I'll bet icc compiles with threads whether you want it to or not :P 14:52:15 And yes, || is still short-circuiting, foo will not be null if function_not_checking_this_name_is_too_long is called. 14:52:47 GregorR, actually no. It only does that if you use -parallel to auto-parallelise. Checked with ldd 14:53:02 fizzie, right. Forgot if it was in C 14:54:55 Funny, can't seem to find any references to that #12331 chdir warning from the interwebs. It must not be a very popular ICC flag that enables it. 14:57:23 fizzie, -diag-enable sc1 14:57:51 it did find some useful things, like a few missing checks for NULL in places that needed them 14:58:16 but almost everything else seems to be false warnings so far 14:58:51 That's funny, since it seems "sc1" is just about "critical errors", and that sounds like quite a just-in-case warning. 14:59:06 fizzie, yep. I wonder what sc2 and above will do... 14:59:17 I wonder why on earth I wrote this: 14:59:23 case 0: handles[h]->file = fopen(filename, "rb"); break; 14:59:23 case 1: handles[h]->file = fopen(filename, "wb"); break; 14:59:23 case 2: handles[h]->file = fopen(filename, "ab"); break; 14:59:25 and so on 14:59:25 "Your variable names are not poetic enough." 14:59:27 5 cases 14:59:49 I mean clearly the mode bit should just be calculated then the call be made with a variable 15:00:11 though that is possibly messier in C 15:15:24 Probably because you didn't write it but rather copied it from CCBI :-P 15:18:28 Deewiant, yeah would explain the bad coding style. 15:18:31 :P 15:18:41 It's somewhat needed in CCBI 15:18:45 case 0: file = c.fopen(name, "rb"); if (!file) goto default; break; 15:18:45 case 1: file = c.fopen(name, "wb"); if (!file) goto default; break; 15:18:45 case 2: file = c.fopen(name, "ab"); if (!file) goto default; c.rewind(file); break; 15:18:55 Though the rewind may not be needed 15:18:58 But whatever 15:19:21 Deewiant, I have the rewind stuff further down 15:19:31 if ((mode == 2) || (mode == 5)) 15:19:31 rewind(handles[h]->file); 15:19:57 /home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/FILE/FILE.c:337: error: #12306: unvalidated value is received from call to an external function at (file:/home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/src/fingerprints/FILE/FILE.c line:326) which can be used in loop condition expression 15:19:58 what? 15:20:11 * AnMaster tries to figure out what that was about 15:20:14 You don't check ferror or something? 15:20:29 line 326 is: 15:20:31 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 15:20:31 if ((bytes_read = fread(buf, sizeof(unsigned char), (size_t)n, fp)) != (size_t)n) { 15:20:35 -!- JoelyWoely has joined. 15:20:40 and I think I check it there 15:20:55 yeah that is what the if does 15:21:05 since bytes_read is the bit that is found in the loop 15:21:15 -!- ehird has joined. 15:21:48 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Client Quit). 15:21:48 -!- JoelyWoely has quit (Client Quit). 15:22:56 14:25:49 ehird, http://bugs.python.org/issue1453http://bugs.python.org/issue1453 <-- your opinion? That issue exists in 3.1 too btw 15:22:57 fail 15:23:00 (@ you) 15:23:18 ehird, was already pointed out, and I blame synergy as I said 15:24:13 17:45:30 Ha, ha, it isn't about GameCube! Now push the Explode button and your TV will explode and money will come out. 15:24:14 funnily enough, clicking the link did not make me understand this any more. 15:25:59 06:50:45 fizzie, btw do you know if this is well defined: if ((foo == NULL) || (function_not_checking_parameter_for_null_first(foo) == 1)) { return ERROR_CODE; } 15:25:59 wow, stop coding C 15:26:01 seriously 15:26:21 ehird, well icc didn't claim it was. 15:26:42 we've already established icc is overly pedantic 15:26:58 ehird, I think it strayed into "plain wrong" there 15:27:14 07:15:24 Probably because you didn't write it but rather copied it from CCBI :-P 15:27:14 hey now, he might have changed the indentation style! 15:27:19 hm nope, not even that 15:27:24 oh, wait, yes 15:27:27 he converted it to tabs 15:27:33 Er what? I use tabs 15:27:35 significant modifications, here 15:27:37 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 15:27:41 Deewiant: er right 15:27:48 I selected the space next to > 15:27:48 He removed tabs, mayhap 15:27:48 for you 15:28:12 ehird, you aren't even funny. Also isn't one of the points of open source to be able to share code ;P 15:28:20 (and yes I do give credit) 15:28:40 Generally it's considered polite to label things like that "ports" 15:28:52 Except that'd be offensive to CCBI, which doesn't have half of its code as asm optimisations 15:30:16 ehird, I do include a comment at the top of that file about many parts being based on CCBI. Reason here was that I implemented that RCS fingerprint before Mike Riley showed up here. 15:30:25 when his docs were even worse. 15:30:37 I'm further convinced that you don't actually read messages you reply to 15:31:06 ehird, I generally skip lines with a too high sillyness quota 15:31:26 Translation: I ignore lines I don't agree with 15:33:33 ehird, no, definitely not. 15:33:53 ehird, if I did that I wouldn't be able to end up arguing with you for such long periods. 15:33:58 Correction: I ignore lines I strongly don't agree with, especially if they're from people I dislike. 15:34:29 ehird, Not really, but when you are sarcastic or just plain silly, then yes. 15:35:04 Correction: If I continue to add qualifiers to this sentence I can justify [ignoring lines I strongly don't agree with, especially if they're from people I dislike]. 15:35:33 ehird, ... now you are getting close to silly again. 15:36:13 You're... incredibly predictable. 15:36:28 ehird, so is your mom 15:37:16 Here we find AnMaster using his staple argumentative technique, "argumentum ad I don't have any rebuttals so I'll make a bad joke and hope everyone forgets about the argument". 15:37:27 (Said in Attenborough voice.) 15:38:08 ehird, anyway, you didn't answer the question about that bug above. 15:38:14 http://bugs.python.org/issue1453 that is 15:38:33 quite wtfy of python to only let CFLAGS passed to configure affect configure itself 15:38:36 What is there to say? You linked me to a tedious, sundry bug. 15:38:43 which is completely different to what everyone else does 15:40:08 bbl 15:43:42 I guess I'll have to rieinstall windows 15:43:55 *reinstall 15:47:05 hmm 15:47:15 * ehird considers looking at older notebook models 15:47:34 A 14" 4:3 notebook is the same width as a 12" 16:10 notebook and quite a bit taller... 15:47:55 (+ prolly less bezel than a 12"; e.g. look at the X200's) 15:51:56 ehird, why? 15:52:00 A 14" 4:3 notebook is the same width as a 12" 16:10 notebook and quite a bit taller... 15:52:01 (+ prolly less bezel than a 12"; e.g. look at the X200's) 15:52:07 = more screen space while fitting on my lap 15:52:08 err I meant about why reinstall 15:52:11 oh 15:52:12 not why the 14" 15:52:17 because my keyboard stopped working 15:52:25 ehird, heh... tried rebooting? 15:52:35 yes. also repairing the drivers. 15:52:44 ehird, maybe unplug it and plugging it in again? 15:52:52 Bluetooth. 15:52:55 oh right 15:52:57 I turned it off and on again. 15:52:59 about that 15:53:00 And tried to repair. 15:53:04 It "supposedly" worked, but not really. 15:53:20 AnMaster: About that? 15:53:22 how do you set up the initial pair connection thingy for bluetooth keyboard and mice 15:53:33 For a keyboard, just click click click. 15:53:38 It can generate a pairing key for you. 15:53:47 ehird, you mean, enter key shown on screen or such? 15:53:58 Yeah, they're like 8 digits long 15:54:01 right 15:54:03 Sooo insecure :P 15:54:08 what about mice, how do you input it there? 15:54:15 You don't. 15:54:19 ehird, oh? 15:54:24 You just turn it on, maybe press a button on the back, and pair at the same time. 15:54:33 It's magic. 15:54:46 But then two mice in range trying to pair at the same time is unlikely, after all. 15:55:07 well true 15:55:27 Issues with looking at older notebooks: run hotter and louder, lower specs, dimmer displays 15:55:37 Hotter and dimmer being the main issues 15:55:49 "256 or 512MB PC2-4200 memory standard, 2GB max 15:55:49 40, 60 or 80GB PATA HDD" 15:55:50 ehird, unless someone is setting up a computer lab at some uni. But I guess usb mice are more common there to make it harder to steal 15:55:55 Okay, well, more than 80GB would be nice. 15:56:25 I guess I could use a SATA→PATA adapter and scrunch a big SSD in there with some ingenuity. 15:56:27 ehird, btw, do you plan getting some notebook bag/backpack or similar? 15:56:40 Sure, I can't exactly hold it all the time. 15:56:43 because when I was looking for one to mine I only saw ones made for wide screen 15:56:53 AnMaster: I could just get a regular bag 15:56:56 of course you could just get a larger bag 15:57:08 like a 15" one for a 12" laptop or similar 15:57:37 The T43 is 32.9 x 26.8 x 3.6 cm. 15:57:39 ehird, well yes, but the ones made for notebooks tend to have some extra padding 15:58:01 Eh, who cares about that. The only PC notebooks I'd really consider are ThinkPads, and they're sturdy. 15:58:14 which is nice both for your back (in case of backpack at least) and for the notebook (for obvious reasons) 15:58:26 Did you know, by the way, that the original iBook weighed a whole 3kg? 15:58:29 It looks so... dinky. 15:58:35 ehird, that sounds about right 15:58:36 (clamshell) 15:58:40 since I have one of those :P 15:58:46 BUT IT'S DINKY. 15:58:52 define dinky 15:58:58 DINKY 15:59:01 ... 15:59:05 It is a word. 15:59:15 Huh, the T43 is 2.3kg. Old notebooks sure are heavy :P 15:59:40 ehird, btw for clamshell ones: don't use the built in handle thingy 15:59:54 I am not in the market for a clamshell iBook, AnMaster. "{ 15:59:54 at least mine shows some worrying cracks in the plastic handle. 15:59:55 *:P 16:00:11 ehird, :( it would match your old powerpc mac perfectly 16:00:28 sed '/^\/home\// !d;s/\(.[ch]\)(\([0-9][0-9]*\)):/\1:\2:/;s/\(error\|remark\|warning\) #/\1: #/' 16:00:28 (Even if I was looking for a Mac and yet wanted an old notebook. Especially since they can't even run Snow Leopard, being PPC.) 16:00:29 err 16:00:31 copy fail 16:00:41 ok what the hell is going on 16:00:50 I select something in firefox and it pastes old stuff every time 16:00:54 http://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/imgad?id=CKr185OFk9KEdRDIARjIATIIb2Sq8OBFTU4 16:00:57 I blame syngergy 16:00:57 IT JUST SEXY AS HELL 16:01:43 You know, there's an old ThinkPad in the local refurbished laptop shop; I think it was an X-something. 16:01:44 Maybe. 16:01:48 IBM era, though. 16:01:48 Definitions of dinky on the Web: 16:01:48 * small and insignificant; "we stayed in a dinky old hotel" 16:01:48 * a small locomotive 16:01:48 * (British informal) pretty and neat; "what a dinky little hat" 16:01:48 wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn 16:01:51 which one did you mean 16:02:00 Ehh, all of them apart from the middle. 16:02:08 ah 16:02:08 It's... small. And cute-looking. Not 3kg looking. :P 16:02:21 Actually there were two ThinkPads at that shop, but one was being used as a mousepad. 16:02:21 ehird, it isn't small. Well the 12" 800x600 screen is 16:02:25 but not the laptop itself 16:02:31 wide borders around the screen after all 16:03:00 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/IBook_G4.jpg The iBook G4's keyboard looks nice. Also holy crap that button is big. 16:03:10 Actually there were two ThinkPads at that shop, but one was being used as a mousepad. <-- sounds uncomfortable since the thinkpads I have seen are quite thick... 16:03:35 Well, remember that yours was the "low-cost" model, so it compromises on weight and thickness, but no, not really. 16:03:37 The desk wasn't very high. 16:03:43 And the monitor was on top of some books. 16:03:51 It wasn't as makeshift-looking as it sounds. 16:03:53 ehird, I the button isn't as much "large" as the whole laptop is "small" 16:04:08 That button is really deep compared to the trackpad, dood. :P 16:04:21 ehird, deep? 16:04:31 err you mean tall? 16:04:31 Further in. 16:04:42 No, that is not how you look at notebooks. 16:04:49 err? 16:04:51 You look at the screen. Deep. 16:05:05 ehird, you are talking about the trackpad click button right? 16:05:08 That is also how they measure how big the keyboard/pad area is. Deepness. 16:05:15 You are using the wrong dimensions. 16:05:17 Yes. 16:05:29 ("In 2005 the Chinese manufacturer, Lenovo, purchased the ThinkPad brand from IBM, in a five year deal whereby IBM still helps in the marketing and support of these products." that explains the ibm.com) 16:05:35 ehird, screen depth refers to number of bits per pixel... 16:05:42 "Added the Windows key to all 60-series and newer laptops making all the Windows shortcuts possible. (Although possible before with the keyboard remapping utility)" 16:05:43 Wow, only lenovo did that? 16:05:51 AnMaster: You don't know what the word depth means? Really? 16:06:01 "Ported the ThinkPad keyboard into stand-alone keyboards for desktop PCs in PS/2 or USB flavor. [12]" 16:06:01 Oh wow. 16:06:04 ehird, yes I do, like widthxheightxdepth 16:06:08 * ehird drools 16:06:14 http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?sitestyle=lenovo&lndocid=MIGR-45868 16:06:16 IT HAS A NIPPLE 16:06:19 but I fail to see which dimension is which here 16:06:24 Best input device evar 16:06:43 ehird, actually no, it is better to switch between trackpoint and touchpad IME 16:06:49 It has both 16:06:50 but that one has both 16:06:52 yeah 16:06:57 And that lovely keyboard. 16:07:02 Looks like no windows key, though. 16:07:07 At least that doesn't look like a logo. 16:07:32 ehird, and indeed, old thinkpads had no windows key iirc. 16:07:33 A disturbing trend in keyboards recently: Microsoft are getting people to do the windows-logo-surrounded-by-orb thing PHYSICALLY. 16:07:52 A convex bit of smooth plastic pressed into the key with the windows logo on it. 16:08:02 What do you mean keys should feel good to type? 16:08:07 MICROSOFT ARE GIVING US MONEY! 16:08:29 ehird, what about ms ergonomic keyboards? If they still make them 16:08:36 Dunno 16:08:40 http://computersolutions.co.nz/images/newsletter/2007-10-14/Windows%20Key.jpg ;; example 16:09:28 I bet old notebooks don't have very good battery life... 16:09:45 ehird, on my thinkpad there is a circle around the windows logo, but it is made so that the windows logo is slightly below the surface of the key, hardly possible to notice at all. 16:09:56 and the surface inside the circle is flat 16:10:00 That's moving me slightly towards an Apple notebook, actually. All the MacBook Pros have 7 hours battery life apart from the 17" model, which has 8. 16:10:15 but I guess they can't anything convex on a laptop :) 16:10:16 (And yes, in testing they get near these in real world use.) 16:10:44 (Graphs: http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=3580&p=4) 16:10:51 ehird: That looks like it'd feel absolutely horrid 16:10:55 OTOH it's not a very important key 16:10:56 Deewiant: It does 16:11:04 Deewiant: And it is on a Mac, e.g. 16:11:09 Since it's option there 16:11:13 (Alt becoming Command) 16:11:39 you mean windows key is the super key :P 16:11:44 No. 16:11:47 Option is Alt. 16:11:52 (and menu is compose) 16:11:53 Command is Meta. 16:12:05 ehird, well on macs yes 16:12:11 Well, Option is Compose I guess. 16:12:18 Option-e e → é 16:12:18 ehird, oh? 16:12:31 Option-a a → ā 16:12:34 Option-e a → á 16:12:36 etc 16:12:41 Except it's in shortcuts too. 16:12:45 So Control, Compose and Meta. 16:13:10 ehird, press compose release, type mu gives µ 16:13:18 Yes, I know 16:13:25 But Compose-' e = é, for example 16:13:30 It's the same general idea 16:13:38 "Do special characters, maybe with argument" 16:13:40 hm true 16:13:42 so Option fits 16:13:55 And Command is the main shortcut key for, well, commands. 16:13:58 So Meta definitely fits. 16:14:00 I wonder where pi is with compose 16:14:22 Of course, then you get silly combinations like Compose-Command-v because Compose is just arbitrary in a shortcut. 16:14:28 This Logitech illuminated has the windows-logo-emboss-thing, and I personally don't really notice it that much; it looks to have a bith smoother rim around the logo than in that picture, though. 16:14:42 And I use it much, since I've bound all window-manager shortcuts to that. 16:16:20 * ehird considers writing a paper on erroneously spatial interfaces 16:16:29 Mostly because that term, that I just invented, is awesome. 16:17:42 The windows key keycap design is rather strictly regulated, see all 23 pages of http://download.microsoft.com/download/d/e/1/de1e0c8f-a222-47bc-b78b-1656d4cf3cf7/HardwareStartButtonV102.doc (if you can open a Word .doc, anyway) 16:18:14 I want a keyboard whose icon for the Windows key is a turd. 16:18:20 "Just press Turd-Q." 16:18:56 That document is one of the requirements if you want that "Windows Logo Program" thing, so you can put the logo on the box. 16:19:13 SHAPE \* MERGEFORMAT 16:19:13 Figure 1: Sample implementation of the Hardware Start Button 16:19:30 Same idea, but instead of a turd, the text "SHAPE \* MERGEFORMAT". 16:19:42 "Diameter of the Chamfer" 16:23:24 But see, it's not like they're strict about the stuff; you can use a "matte finish with a consistent texture of MT11000 or equivalent" instead of the "SPI A2 gloss finish". Well, of course only if you're distributing the keyboard in the EU area. 16:24:37 :D 16:25:11 "Why is it that in 2008 were there over 3 million searches on the keywords Obama Antichrist" and "Obama Messiah"?.......Does Barack Obama have an apocalyptic role given the global financial circumstances in which he has risen to power. Is he a man divinely appointed or an agent of the New World Order objective?" 16:25:17 I'm sure Apple has an equally ridiculous thing, it's just internal because they make all their own keyboards :-P 16:25:34 Deewiant: Not really, they've differed significantly 16:25:47 For instance, on my previous keyboard it was "⌥ alt" or something, on this it's 16:25:49 "alt 16:25:49 16:25:50 option" 16:26:27 On this, it's "(hollow apple) ⌘", on the later ones, it's "command ⌘". 16:27:02 And even the Apple logo is pretty subtle. Certainly no polished domes for it. 16:27:28 Yeah, the thing with the Apple keyboard is all done with Bluetooth Reality Distortion Fields. 16:27:39 Basically you see Steve Jobs. All the time. And nothing else. 16:27:40 It's great. 16:31:57 ehird, but they would never let another company produce keyboards with apple logos I bet 16:32:09 A company defending their logo 16:32:13 Evil! Boycott Apple. 16:33:09 yeah it's horrible. And it seems Microsoft are positively open compared to apple in this case ;P 16:35:17 other silly warning from ICC: warning #12330: function "system" possibly accepts command line 16:35:25 err yeah? that's the whole point isn't it? 16:36:34 Would you like a strong AI compiler or something 16:37:28 ehird, oh you mean it is intended for "don't use this in a web server" kind of thing warning? 16:37:35 that could possibly explain it 16:37:41 It's a "yo, man, be careful with this input" 16:37:52 ehird, yeah that's what I meant 17:02:46 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:08:24 Deewiant, do ORTH instructions reflect on error? 17:08:31 Can they error? 17:08:39 Deewiant, well the output string one could 17:08:44 well,* 17:09:07 in fact any output one could. 17:09:11 Up to you I guess 17:09:37 Deewiant, the reason I asked was simply that ORTH is after all based on another language. 17:11:09 I don't know what they do there 17:20:46 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 17:24:32 Deewiant, what about this ICC warning: 17:24:42 "return value of function "clearerr" is ignored 17:24:51 according to man page the prototype is: 17:24:58 void clearerr(FILE *stream); 17:25:15 doesn't happen to any other void function as far as I can tell 17:25:35 It probably then isn't void "in reality", i.e. in the system headers. 17:25:57 /usr/include/stdio.h:extern void clearerr (FILE *__stream) __THROW; 17:26:12 Curious. Maybe ICC's just very confused. 17:27:03 maybe it provides it's own stdio headers? doesn't make any sense... but who knows... *greps* 17:27:07 Assuming you actually have there included, but one would guess not having that would lead to other warnings. 17:27:21 fizzie, yes I include stdio.h 17:27:42 fizzie, that was at the sc3 level btw 17:28:40 and no, grepping the whole icc directory didn't turn up any clearerr except stuff like "binary file /opt/intel/Compiler/11.1/046/bin/intel64/icc matches" 17:29:06 __THROW? 17:29:09 $ nm -D /home/arvid/local/intel/Compiler/11.1/046/bin/intel64/icc | grep clearerr 17:29:09 U clearerr 17:29:24 Deewiant, unknown, it's gnu headers. would take way to long to track that down 17:29:35 There are things like ctags 17:29:44 There's also a lot of __BEGIN_NAMESPACE_STD macros. 17:30:14 They are probably using the same header for the thing, or whatever, and want the empty-throw-declaration there. Or something. 17:30:29 __THROW seems to be defined in lots of places 17:30:48 Try removing __THROw and see if it still complains 17:30:51 from grep (keep in mind that there are no context lines here): 17:30:53 (From clearerr) 17:30:53 /usr/include/sys/cdefs.h:# define __THROW __attribute__ ((__nothrow__)) 17:30:53 /usr/include/sys/cdefs.h:# define __THROW throw () 17:30:58 err right 17:31:10 It just sounds like the type of thing that might be causing it. 17:31:12 yeah 17:31:14 it prolly is 17:31:20 I like how throw = nothrow 17:31:23 Or something :P 17:31:23 Deewiant, __THROW is there for stuff it doesn't complain about though 17:31:33 So maybe you aren't ignoring that stuff. 17:31:34 ehird, well I think those two lines there just contradicted itself 17:31:37 err 17:31:39 I really think it's defined empty for the not-gcc case. 17:31:39 themselves 17:31:41 Or it's using a different #defined value there. 17:31:47 fizzie: icc says it's gcc. 17:31:48 fizzie: ICC claims to be GCC, IIRC. 17:31:48 fizzie, ICC defined __GNUC__ though 17:31:52 Ah. 17:32:25 In that case it really shouldn't be confused by GCC attributes. 17:32:54 which make all hell break loose in cfunge, except that I explicitly check for __INTEL_COMPILER 17:33:45 My headers define __THROW to "__attribute__ ((__nothrow__))" for (not C++, GCC >= 3.3); to "throw ()" for (C++, GCC >= 2.8) and to empty otherwise. 17:33:52 wait, what does throw() in C++ mean? 17:33:59 Does not throw exceptions. 17:34:00 "may not throw"? 17:34:02 oh 17:34:10 fizzie, why not call it nothrow() or something then 17:34:20 It's "throw with an empty list". 17:34:24 Makes perfect sense. 17:34:29 ah indeed 17:34:31 Here's the list of exceptions we may throw: none. 17:34:46 Pretty much the same thing as __attribute__ ((nothrow)) I guess, though I don't know what the attribute actually does in non-C++ code. 17:35:05 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:35:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:35:51 fizzie, seems pretty unclear from gcc docs too 17:35:56 "The `nothrow' attribute is used to inform the compiler that a function cannot throw an exception." 17:36:00 "The nothrow attribute is used to inform the compiler that a function cannot throw an exception. For example, most functions in the standard C library can be guaranteed not to throw an exception with the notable exceptions of qsort and bsearch that take function pointer arguments. The nothrow attribute is not implemented in GCC versions earlier than 3.3." 17:36:01 yeah 17:36:24 fizzie, I wasn't aware C functions could throw exceptions 17:36:41 I guess it's for compiling C with -fexceptions. 17:36:56 what would the point of THAT be... 17:36:58 "you may need to enable this option when compiling C code that needs to interoperate properly with exception handlers written in C++" 17:37:20 I feel I should really repeat the above line :P 17:38:22 Actually, heh, it's in the cdefs.h header too: "For gcc 3.2 and up we even mark C functions as non-throwing using a function attribute since programs can use the -fexceptions options for C code as well." 17:38:40 I like it how the comment says "for gcc 3.2 and up" while the actual test is __GNUC_PREREQ (3, 3). 17:40:18 The system headers are always so messy. 17:40:28 fizzie, much less so on freebsd though 17:40:32 /* These two macros are not used in glibc anymore. They are kept here 17:40:32 only because some other projects expect the macros to be defined. */ 17:40:32 #define __P(args) args 17:40:32 #define __PMT(args) args 17:40:37 but yes the GNU ones are 17:40:53 fizzie, I guess those are related to prototypes somehow 17:41:26 Yes, I think people do wrap arguments in a __P() so it can be defined empty if you want to omit them. 17:41:34 Not sure what __PMT is for. 17:41:39 #define __ptr_t void * 17:41:39 #define __long_double_t long double 17:41:42 err 17:41:46 irc ate the comment above 17:41:48 /* This is not a typedef so `const __ptr_t' does the right thing. */ 17:41:50 was it 17:41:58 well that explains the first, but not the second 17:42:33 It's probably so that "unsigned __long_double_t" will work. :p 17:43:01 fizzie, btw what would the const do if it was a typedef 17:43:13 make the actual variable itself const rather than the pointed to value? 17:43:19 Yes. 17:43:50 I don't really like the whole "hide a pointer in typedef" thing anyway. 17:43:54 fizzie, any way to make the actual pointer const if you don't want to use a typedef? Err would it be something like void* const? 17:44:21 I seriously hate how C types are defined 17:45:00 Yes, void* const foo; would be it, I think. 17:45:10 okay now ICC is just getting damn silly. It errors that while(true) is an infinite loop.... 17:45:15 cdecl> explain void* const foo; 17:45:15 declare foo as const pointer to void 17:45:25 has it never heard of main loops? 17:45:35 for (;;) 17:45:50 ehird, same error, I just checked 17:45:58 Sounds like a reasonable error to me 17:46:01 this is in -diag-enable c3 17:46:03 of course 17:46:36 ehird, not really, because when written like that it is usually intended. And it doesn't need a strong AI to detect. After all GCC does it. 17:46:45 you put it on super-pedantic mode 17:46:58 if you're an idiot and do that when you don't want it to be super pedantic 17:47:00 shit's your fault. 17:47:05 ehird, yes, but the pedanticness should make sense IMO :P 17:47:09 it does. 17:54:14 In C++ you can write "const void *foo" and "void const *foo" and they mean the same thing; I *think* you can do the same in C too, though my version of cdecl doesn't understand the latter. 17:55:06 AnMaster: ... Is it trying to make C not-TC? :P 17:55:28 pikhq, err you must have misunderstood what I was suggesting 17:55:30 fizzie: Yes, you can, in C. 17:55:54 pikhq, not that C is TC without file IO. ;P 17:56:20 while(true); -- Getting rid of that means no TC 17:56:31 pikhq, never suggested that. It was ICC who did 17:56:37 s/who/that/ 17:56:48 AnMaster: Sure it is. Via an annoying isomorphism with lambda calculus. :P 17:56:54 pikhq, in fact the case was while(true) { blah blah } 17:57:09 pikhq, you have limited memory since size of size_t must be finite 17:57:18 (specific implementations are not; damned finite stack) 17:58:15 pikhq, in fact it is defined that sizeof(void*) must be finite. 17:58:46 so it isn't just "no implementation is TC" here. (because that is true for every language then) 17:59:11 Yeah, sure. But not everything on the stack needs to be within that finite memory space. 17:59:26 int x; 17:59:27 &x 18:00:10 ehird: Since C is not dynamic, one need not worry about making everything addressable. Just everything that's addressed. 18:00:19 int x; 18:00:25 er 18:00:28 pikhq, um yes 18:00:30 pikhq: 18:00:39 {int x$N} * sizeof(int*)+1 18:00:49 {&x$N} * sizeof(int*)+1 18:00:51 what now, bitch 18:01:14 pikhq, since you can take an an address of anything on stack and pass it on to callees 18:01:30 That, of course, cannot be done infinitely. Fortunately, that's not needed for Turing completeness. 18:01:36 AnMaster: that is not what he said 18:01:42 pikhq: C is not TC, man. 18:01:50 This has been proved, more or less. 18:02:19 ehird: It has functions and a call stack of potentially infinite size. 18:02:25 Nope. 18:02:29 That call stack must be pointerable. 18:02:35 pikhq, also iirc it is valid to do something like: int i, j; int* base = &i; ssize_t diff = &j - &i; and then use base+diff to access j 18:02:37 Then GCC does not implement C. 18:02:39 pikhq: Besides, functions are not enough. 18:02:44 You have to PASS functions. 18:02:44 though that is probably gray-zone 18:02:47 And those functions must be POINTERS. 18:02:51 and POINTERS are of finite size. 18:03:04 ehird: Okay, that's a much better argument. 18:03:04 (You DO have to pass functions for the LC) 18:03:09 (read: not a non-sequitur) 18:04:11 C is probably TC if you include the file IO though... iirc. 18:04:22 or possibly not 18:04:22 It is. 18:04:30 If given an infinite filesystem. 18:05:01 ehird, I suspect it isn't. Files are seekable. the offset in files is of the type off_t, which is also finite. There is a finite number of filenames you can fit into memory (since memory is finite) 18:05:22 so use files of 1-byte. 18:05:33 fopen("swap489573495834985739498732814683779831647842672645678926587932645","w") 18:05:43 ehird, um? how would that help. 18:05:45 ofc filenames are finite 18:05:51 AnMaster: You don't need infinitely large files 18:06:00 ehird, of course not 18:06:09 but you need infinite number of files then 18:06:20 I'm sure it's been shown that the C file io is tc 18:06:45 which is not possible if there is a finite number of possible filenames. 18:06:54 ehird, fine. link? 18:06:59 It's just "infinite number of possible filenames in memory". 18:07:12 You can do a tape with an infinite-depth chain of subdirectories, and move around it with chdir. 18:07:18 yah 18:07:24 or, index files pointing to new and old filenames 18:07:28 so you can drop them from memory 18:07:38 fizzie, that would work, but then you mean C + POSIX iirc 18:07:44 not pure C with file IO 18:08:35 the C standard describes no such thing as "directory" 18:08:44 files yes, but not directories 18:09:09 yawn. 18:09:22 ehird, good night 18:09:39 Does that mean you're leaving? Say yes. 18:09:46 ehird, I thought you were 18:09:57 Yes, "yawn" means "I am leaving now". 18:10:24 ehird, I thought it was "yawn, I'm feeling sleepy, see you tomorrow" 18:15:56 oh btw I found out why ICC produced a binary for cfunge that was more than twice as slow as that gcc produced (on mycology that is)... 18:16:33 I was hiding some attributes ICC didn't understand from it. When I hide those from GCC too... ICC and GCC are exactly even. 18:17:33 good news is that last version of ICC now support them. And with those visible to ICC... ICC and GCC are exactly even but at the much shorter time. 18:17:51 So did it take 0.006 instead of 0.003s 18:18:11 ehird, 0.160 vs 0.029 18:18:18 So SLOW! 18:18:44 ehird, relatively yes... 18:19:03 Agree or disagree: 'If [the 80386] were an unencumbered design, it would have had a 32-bit "word", but as an extension of the 8086, its "word" continued to be considered as 16 bits.' 18:19:11 Deewiant: Agree in what way 18:19:17 Is it factually true? Should it have been that way? 18:19:35 ehird, more than 5 times as slow. When you look at it that way, the difference is very large 18:19:36 Is it true that most people consider the x86's word 16 bits 18:19:42 Well, is it? 18:19:56 I've never considered it 16 bits for the 32- or 64-bit machines 18:20:03 Then I guess it isn't? 18:20:11 I'm not most people 18:20:24 How is it 16-bit 18:20:29 The wikipedia article that's from and a comment in the discussion suggests that most people do, in fact, consider it 16-bit 18:20:35 Deewiant, well I guess this is mainly about the DOS/windows world, where int32_t is known as DWORD 18:20:36 ehird: See the quote. 18:20:39 which stands for double word 18:20:41 That's not helpful 18:20:43 iirc 18:20:45 Deewiant: I don't know about "most people", but GDB considers "word" to be 32 bits; for example x/1w dumps out 32 bits; 16 bits is a half-word. 18:20:46 AnMaster: Yes, that's one place where it is like that. 18:21:02 Deewiant, the entire windows API yes 18:21:12 Yep. 18:21:49 On the other hand, the official assembly mnemonics have several cases of things like stos{b,w,d,q} with 16-bit word, 32-bit dword and 64-bit qword. 18:22:08 AT&T, yes. 18:22:13 don't think it is used a lot on linux (the term word that is) 18:22:22 And actually those Intel ones too, yes. 18:22:43 stos[bwdq] being one of the few that comes with a size 18:22:56 Deewiant, what does stos* do now again 18:23:04 AnMaster: Yeah, everybody's a C programmer so they just talk about size_t ;-) 18:23:11 Stores al/ax/eax/rax into di/edi/rdi. 18:23:15 It stores a byte at ... yeah 18:23:25 Well, stosb does. 18:23:36 Th others store more than a byte. :-P 18:23:39 Deewiant, well win32 api is C iirc 18:23:42 Er, and I guess there's some segment selector involved too, I don't remember which one. 18:23:44 well,* 18:24:07 Quite, but they're like OpenGL in that they decided to make their own integer types for everything. 18:24:12 fizzie, wait what... isn't that same as mov eax,edi? 18:24:31 Oh, it also increments edi. 18:24:35 With the suitable number. 18:24:37 err 18:24:43 fizzie, define suitable 18:24:50 The number of bytes in the thing you put there. 18:24:59 1 for stosb, 2 for stosw, 4 for stosd, 8 for stosq. 18:25:00 It decrements it if DF = 1. 18:25:08 ok... what use is this 18:25:10 Yes, there's also a direction flag you can set or clear. 18:25:10 seriously 18:25:21 AnMaster: memset: rep stosb 18:25:22 Huh? It's the fast way to do memset, for one thing. 18:25:24 Gah. 18:25:35 Rep stosb. 18:25:38 Is it still the fast way, I wonder. 18:25:40 It's like an alien tongue! 18:25:44 Deewiant: unlikely 18:25:48 Well, it's *a* fast way anyway. 18:25:59 Deewiant, nah, libc one uses SIMD nowdays 18:26:07 glibc* 18:26:07 *glibc 18:26:10 Deewiant: <3 18:26:11 yeah 18:26:17 anyway 18:26:43 Anyway, the AMD "Architecture Programmer's Manual" defines "word" as "Two bytes, or 16 bits." 18:26:59 So it's certainly common; I'm sure you could add a [citation needed] for the "most people" part. 18:27:04 how would rep stosb work... wouldn't it just be mov eax,edi followed by substracting 2 from edi? forever 18:27:05 Yeah, but AMD is an asian knock-off company that uses child labor. 18:27:08 Can't trust them. 18:27:10 doesn't make sense 18:27:15 "rep" decrements ecx/rcx. 18:27:17 * AnMaster looks at cpu docs 18:27:18 Of course they do, since then they can say "stosw moves a word" 18:27:44 They also deliberately disable Intel's security features. 18:27:53 Why not quote from a manual you can buy in stores? 18:28:13 oh you meant edi is used as an adress 18:28:19 not that it is moved to edi 18:28:30 Yes, of course. 18:28:31 Stores al/ax/eax/rax into di/edi/rdi. 18:28:36 well wasn't clear from that 18:28:40 well,* 18:29:00 Yes, well, I was assuming an AI-complete reader. 18:29:18 Ooh, burn 18:29:37 They also deliberately disable Intel's security features. <-- I can't even imagine how you thought of that... 18:29:50 fizzie, :P 18:29:53 Uhh, it's true. Don't tell me you've been deceived, AnMaster. 18:30:14 To wit: 18:30:20 [[If your son has requested a new "processor" from a company called "AMD", this is genuine cause for alarm. AMD is a third-world based company who make inferior, "knock-off" copies of American processor chips. They use child labor extensively in their third world sweatshops, and they deliberately disable the security features that American processor makers, such as Intel, use to prevent hacking. AMD chips are never sold in stores, and you will most likely be 18:30:20 that you have to order them from internet sites.]] 18:30:22 ehird, I have no idea what you are talking about simply. What security feature to be specific? 18:30:22 — http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.12.2.42056.2147.html 18:30:44 ^add told to the cut off line 18:31:01 ehird, "btold" ? 18:31:10 The clog line ends with "be". 18:31:15 As does my line. 18:31:17 the one here doesn't 18:31:18 weird 18:31:35 Maybe it didn't send \r and your client stripped off the last two chars. 18:31:44 The line here ends with "b" too. Strange. 18:31:51 ehird, possibly, I'm on xchat atm 18:32:30 Also the bip bouncer log line ends with "-- likely b", that's curious too. 18:32:51 Did we find an off-by-one bug in various software? :-P 18:32:57 fizzie, I don't do my logging in znc so can't check there 18:32:58 Quite so! 18:33:01 By accident! 18:33:03 Deewiant, I suspect it may be server side 18:33:18 Yep, then it's some server that routed it that failed 18:33:25 Hmmmm. 18:33:28 Deewiant, I suspect that server name may be included 18:33:34 Actually I think it might be the ident-message-prefix thing. 18:33:35 Is it? 18:33:38 It adds at least a + there. 18:33:38 Deewiant, which means if the server happens to have a long name... 18:33:43 Ha, cool 18:33:44 fizzie, ah yes that 18:33:50 Why are IRC lines limited anyway 18:33:50 The what now? 18:33:52 yes my client activates that feature too 18:33:52 And xchat toggles that feature on. 18:33:57 Apart from bullshit historical reasons 18:34:15 Deewiant: There's a freenode thing which you can toggle on which makes the server prefix a + to messages from identified-to-nickserv people, and a - to others. 18:34:26 Aha. 18:34:27 I guess neither clog nor whatever client Deewiant uses implements that feature 18:34:30 Deewiant: With the intention that it'll be easy to see no-one's the faking. 18:34:36 CAPAB IDENTIFY-MSG or something, was it. 18:35:17 Deewiant, it is rather useful in irc bots. Make sure the user is really identified without having to do a whois after. for authentication with the irc bot 18:35:28 whois could potentially have race conditions too 18:35:44 Just use name like a real man, I'm sure nobody will /nick name and then !system rm -rf / 18:35:46 I don't think it's very widespread feature to have by-default, but of course there's an Irssi script. 18:36:13 imagine: Evil guy sends message, gets ghosted by real nick owner, bot sends whois, real nick owner identifies, server replies to whois, bot allows evil command 18:36:57 fizzie, I don't think I seen any other irc server than Hyperion implementing the feature. 18:37:30 Why are IRC lines limited anyway Apart from bullshit historical reasons <-- for bullshit historical reasons 18:37:43 then why do current servers abide by this limit 18:37:49 and iirc there are clients that crash on overly long lines. 18:37:56 Fuck them 18:38:05 gets() for the win 18:38:09 ehird, NOTABUG (no I don't agree with this) 18:38:11 rcfunge still has that in 18:38:13 Deewiant, quite 18:38:19 Although I checked that it doesn't ever call the function that uses it 18:38:24 :D 18:38:30 Deewiant, evil dead code? 18:38:34 It's just there for the linker warning 18:38:42 or just some helper function intended for gdb call? 18:38:52 Maybe? 18:39:01 To be fair, RCFunge 2's code is better, isn't it? 18:39:10 "Better" in what way 18:39:16 It's a bit more modular, I guess 18:39:27 Since it has to wrap everything in a struct for MVRS to work 18:39:31 ehird, not really, it was trivial to crash it iirc 18:39:56 Every software has bugs 18:39:57 though that was some rc. Haven't tried any "stable" version of it 18:40:17 ehird, well trivial as in providing a command line argument but no file or something like that 18:40:20 like 18:40:23 *all 18:40:24 ./rcfunge --help 18:40:25 or such 18:40:36 AnMaster: That's sort of low down on the things I'd write if I was writing my own option parser code for an unstable version 18:40:56 ehird, want to hear why it crashed? 18:41:02 Why? 18:41:08 it was more or less filename = argv[argc-1]; 18:41:23 and it checked that there was at least one argument 18:41:37 somehow that ended up crashing it if it started with a - 18:41:43 and such a file didn't exist 18:41:51 See, most people write a command line interface that they can use for testing when using an unstable release 18:42:05 I'd concentrate on e.g. the funge support, personally 18:42:08 Do they? I don't 18:42:21 If they're the kind to write their own command line parsers. 18:42:29 I am 18:42:41 ehird, rc/funge doesn't run on windows iirc. So there is no reason to not use getopt() just as well. 18:42:42 Mostly because Tango didn't have one, though, but anyway 18:42:48 Oh snap, disproof by sample size of 1 18:42:57 Exactly! 18:42:58 AnMaster: Because getopt's interface is shit, for one 18:43:00 www.instantrimshot.com 18:43:10 ehird, getopt_long interface is yes 18:43:14 I JUST SEE A BLANK WHITE PAGE 18:43:18 AnMaster: And getopt 18:43:19 but not getopt() 18:43:22 IMO 18:43:26 ehird, how is it shitty? 18:43:54 1. Duplication of naming the options 18:44:00 in both the switch and getopt() 18:44:13 2. Incomprehensible suffixes like :, that look like options in themselves 18:44:23 Prolly others 18:44:26 ehird, -: isn't very common 18:44:39 Irrelevant, in "bf:" : looks like an option 18:44:53 It's an unreadable DSL 18:44:55 not when in a getopt string 18:44:57 Unless you already know 18:44:59 Which is stupid 18:45:04 Because it's arbitrary and unneeded 18:45:04 ehird, I find it readable 18:45:07 "+bEFfhSs:t:VvW" 18:45:08 for example 18:45:14 The fuck? 18:45:24 Uh, AnMaster? 18:45:28 Was that meant to be a counterargument? 18:45:35 Looks almost as bad as J 18:45:38 Deewiant, of course it is readable. F: means it F takes an argument 18:45:45 Deewiant: HEY NOW. 18:45:45 ehird, yes 18:45:49 I find it easy to read 18:45:56 J is WAY worse 18:45:57 ehird: :-) 18:46:59 the only issue here is that + means: "hey you! yes I mean you getopt of glibc! Follow POSIX today or else!" 18:47:02 Plan 9's argument parsing is better 18:47:09 which can be a bit confusing 18:47:11 I'll draft up something that doesn't look ugly 18:47:29 ehird, so it will be completely unlike J then? 18:47:47 J isn't unreadable just because you don't use \32. 18:48:18 ehird, getopt's DSL isn't unreadable just because it doesn't use \32 either 18:48:36 correct. It's unreadable for entirely different reasons 18:48:43 ehird, as is J 18:48:47 No, it's not. 18:48:58 sure is. If getopt's DSL is 18:49:06 because reading getopt's DSL is trivial 18:49:30 I agree that the duplication in the switch statement is a small issue though 18:49:47 Yawn. 18:50:36 ehird, you realise that saying J is readable and getopt's DSL isn't makes you a hypocrite? 18:50:43 ............. 18:50:58 apparently not 18:51:00 There are so many logical flaws with my statement that I'd rather hit myself on the head with a baseball bat than try and rebut it. 18:51:31 But let's try with the first: "He thinks getopt is unreadable, I think J is unreadable, therefore he must think J is unreadable or he is a hypocrite". 18:51:39 What's that? That doesn't logically follow at all? Oh my. 18:52:14 ehird, you seemed to be indicating that your opinion on getopt above was some sort of "universal truth" 18:52:23 I'm just trying to point out the flaw in this 18:52:34 by showing how absurd it is 18:52:58 CAN SOMEONE PLEASE KNOCK ME OUT? I'M BEING TOLD, YET AGAIN, TO PREFIX EVERY-FUCKING-THING I SAY WITH "IN MY OPINION"! 18:53:11 Go to hell. in my opinion. 18:53:20 That's a postfix, not a prefix. 18:53:47 It flows better. 18:53:50 yeah. Both are allowed. You could even insert it in the middle for variation. 18:54:28 ehird, sed is unreadable unless you know it too 18:54:52 Sing with me: Fallacy, fallacy, fallacy/Phallusy, phallusy, wait, what is this about again? 19:00:27 Phallic. 19:00:42 Phallusy. 19:01:12 getopt is a lot simpler to learn than J though. getopt DSL goes like: Every alphanumeric letter is a valid flag. : means the flag is supposed to have an argmuent. There is a few more things to it that aren't commonly used. But that is it. Oh and GNU adds a few other uncommon things. All of these uncommon things are about special meaning if first char of string is a non-alphanumeric char 19:02:07 -!- oklofok has joined. 19:02:14 -!- M0ny has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 19:02:15 personally I fail to see how that is hard to understand. 19:02:47 rather the issue would be in how it reports what it found to the app. That is a bit more complex. 19:03:51 so if i sum up an innumerable amount of positive real numbers, why is the sum necessarily infinite? 19:04:02 which is: getopt returns found flag, any argument is put in the global variable optarg (indeed, getopt isn't thread safe). 19:04:16 the general sum of X is the supremum of all sums of finite subsets of X 19:04:21 -!- M0ny has joined. 19:04:42 ? means "unlisted flag" 19:05:10 -!- M0ny has quit (Client Quit). 19:05:41 i mean clearly you can't construct something like 0.5^-n for all n, because the decimal expansion needs to start having zeroes to its left, so you can find an injection to N by simply counting the zeroes... but that's very imprecise 19:05:45 maybe i'll ask #math 19:06:00 Deewiant, would you say that it is easy to understand that example I gave above knowing this? 19:06:10 oklofok: you exist?????????? 19:06:30 AnMaster: Uh, sure it's presumably quite simple 19:06:35 great idea taking a measure theory course with a background of one basic course in analysis 19:06:37 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:06:43 But I thought the point was more intuitiveness and such 19:07:03 Anything is intuitive if you can spend 5 minutes learning it! Yay! 19:07:18 I look forward to the system where every call requires such explanation. 19:07:27 Deewiant, if the API was supposed to be intutive, why would we have man pages 19:07:42 We wouldn't, now would we. 19:07:42 ehird: totally. 19:07:46 i've just been kinda busy 19:07:52 Yah, it's not like things called edge cases exist for most calls or anything 19:07:56 Nosiree 19:08:02 Clearly your plan results in the awful demise of man pages 19:08:17 After all, it's easy to infer which arguments the order to go in and therefore your plan would obsolete them. 19:08:24 Therefore, calls shouldn't be intuitive. QED 19:08:30 Deewiant, well design some way to make it intutive to open a newly created file with user access only and fail if the file already exists 19:08:32 "which arguments the order to go in"? 19:08:38 Deewiant, in read-write mode 19:09:03 open("file name", USER_ACCESS_ONLY | FAIL_IF_EXISTS | READ_WRITE_MODE); 19:09:38 Deewiant, you would still need some place to document if it was FAILS_IF_EXISTS or FAIL_IF_EXISTING or similar 19:10:11 Deewiant: Don't ask me, I'm just trying to translate AnMaster's argument "If APIs were intuitive we wouldn't need man pages. Therefore getopt shouldn't be intuitive." 19:10:13 Quite, you still need documentation. But the difference here is that you can read the code and know what it does. 19:10:18 And failing massively as every clause of that sentence is stupid 19:11:12 Deewiant, in truth I think it is open("file name", O_EXCL | O_RDWR, S_IRWXU); 19:11:18 and yes it isn't very intutive 19:11:23 IRWXU <3 19:11:23 had to read man page even 19:11:32 I r wx u → I are with you 19:11:35 S_IRWXU 00700 user (file owner) has read, write and execute permission 19:11:36 → I am with you 19:11:38 I am with you <3 19:11:46 wx = with? 19:11:51 Deewiant: I'M NOT SURE AnMaster RECIPROCATES YOUR DESIRE 19:11:56 Deewiant, Write Execute 19:11:59 possibly 19:12:02 Whoooooooooosh 19:12:07 Oh, REALLY. 19:12:12 S_IRUSR <-- I R User? 19:12:13 I NEVER KNEW 19:12:24 Users R Us! 19:12:51 it means "user has read permission" btw 19:12:52 Users are not toys. 19:13:03 ehird, I didn't say Toys R Us 19:13:12 Whooooooooooosh x 2 19:13:18 though of course that is what I was referencing 19:13:38 * ehird scours thinkwiki for 4:3 thinkpads 19:13:41 S_IRUSR | S_IWUSR may be saner for most temp files 19:13:50 ehird, you wanted good battery time? 19:13:58 Yes, well, they're worth a look 19:14:02 also I don't know if you can find new batteries for old computers 19:14:11 Of course you can....... 19:14:19 also, (I are user and I'm with user)? 19:14:21 because apart from being initially worse, they also tend to get worse over time 19:14:28 ehird, :D 19:14:34 Is that like a... transformative masturbation fantasy? 19:14:35 IT MAKES NO SENSE. 19:14:51 ehird, um sounds more like some kind of deep zen thing to me 19:14:57 As if 19:15:01 with the cosmic flow or such 19:15:21 Ahem: 19:15:33 "If *I* was in charge of the DL's computer, I wouldn't put on *only* Linux or *only* Windows or what have you. I think the DL needs a multiboot machine, and would really appreciate it if you tried to make him one with everything." 19:15:35 ehird, I meant your "translation" of it 19:15:58 ehird, DL's? 19:16:02 Dalai Lama 19:16:05 ah 19:16:06 so, one guy on #math says what i ask doesn't make sense, other says what i'm trying to prove is true 19:16:07 :D 19:16:11 fucking useless 19:16:17 your mom is useless 19:16:18 IN BED 19:16:23 KarZING 19:16:35 why is useless getting fucked? 19:16:40 XD 19:16:41 http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:240 ;; This looks good! 19:16:51 High-res, no less. 19:16:57 ehird, why do you want 4:3 btw 19:17:05 since I thought you disliked non-widescreen 19:17:20 07:52:00 A 14" 4:3 notebook is the same width as a 12" 16:10 notebook and quite a bit taller... 19:17:21 07:52:01 (+ prolly less bezel than a 12"; e.g. look at the X200's) 19:17:21 07:52:07 = more screen space while fitting on my lap 19:17:30 ah 19:17:34 ehird, # Intel Mobile Celeron 300, 366 or 400 CPU 19:17:35 :D 19:17:37 For big screens, yes, I prefer 16:10 19:17:56 Since the extra height is mostly useless, and you can have 4:3 things side by side 19:18:00 Neomagic MagicGraph128XD 19:18:02 ehird, you mean 8:5 19:18:07 It's amused at its obsolescence. 19:18:25 It is also a special card JUST TO DISPLAY GRAPHS! 19:18:36 after telling me the definition doesn't make sense, the guy asks "what's a supermum" 19:18:39 *supernum 19:18:41 err 19:18:44 no supermum right 19:18:45 also it is 10.4"? 19:18:46 supremum* 19:18:49 that just... sounded like supermom 19:18:49 Super mum. 19:18:57 Deewiant: yes, but that was a quote 19:19:00 supernun 19:19:02 ? 19:19:02 AnMaster: Up to 12GB hard drive, bitch 19:19:10 Right, it was, wasn't it. 19:19:18 yes, yesn't it 19:19:19 I thought nun's weren't supposed to me mum's? 19:19:25 /groan 19:19:33 also *be 19:19:41 ehird, but that would explain a lot about you :P 19:19:50 what? 19:20:35 ehird, your nu^H^Hmum 19:20:44 * ehird wonders how the T43 and T43p differ 19:20:54 ehird, by one letter 19:21:01 Can I stab you? 19:21:15 Hmm, the latter has a different gfx card 19:21:21 And moar RAM by default 19:21:32 But both support up to 2GB maximum 19:21:43 Those Pentium Ms must run hot 19:21:56 T60 looks shiny; Core 2 Duo, even. 19:22:03 "14.1" TFT display with 1400x1050 resolution" 19:22:06 Now that's some dpi. 19:22:25 Well, 124. Still. 19:22:37 "512 MB or 1 GB PC2-5300 memory standard upgradable to 4 GB1" 19:22:59 Looks nice. Quite heavy though; 2.45-2.5kg for the 9-cell on the 14" and the 6-cell probably sucks. 19:23:26 There's also a t60p that only has the higher resolution and I don't know what else. Oh, it has that ATI card. 19:23:32 I guess p meant "discrete graphics". 19:23:36 "and higher specs" 19:23:43 well, higher base specs 19:23:43 that is 19:24:33 ofc, an issue with all these is that they'll be second hand, and I doubt most ThinkPad owners are terribly careful with 'em... 19:25:01 Hmm, The T60 gains a windows key at the expense of fn/control/alt becoming smaller 19:25:04 *the 19:25:35 "The ThinkPad T60 under review is a 15.0" variety with an SXGA+ (1400 x 1050) and has what Lenovo calls "FlexView" technology to provide very wide viewing angles" 19:25:41 Wonder if I could find a 14" with that 19:25:52 (Wonder how many nits they have) 19:26:07 "Experiences may differ with a 14" size screen, there is no FlexView offering on that screen size." 19:26:08 d'aww 19:27:29 I have the 9-cell battery with the T60 being reviewed. It adds a bit of weight over the standard 6-cell and sticks out but if you want close to 4 hours of battery life with the 15" screen model you'll need this size. In using the T60 without Wi-Fi and at medium brightness (3rd notch of 7) it got 3 hours 42 minutes of battery life when used lightly (typing review, or idling). You can expect to get over 3 hours with Wi-Fi on and finishing a DVD with the 9-cell 19:27:29 battery shouldn't be a problem, well, unless it's Lord of the Rings. 19:27:29 The T60 14" screen size will do much better in terms of time of battery life per cell because a smaller screen just drains less battery. My guess is the 6-cell battery for the T60 14" will get you about what the 9-cell battery does for the 15" -- again, that's just a mildly educated guess. 19:27:31 Eh 19:27:47 So I could expect like 5-6 hours with the 9 cell on the 14" 19:27:50 Which isn't bad at all 19:28:16 http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/9340.gif ;; clever interface! 19:28:37 "Runs cool and quiet, no overheating issues even with a fast processor and dedicated video card" 19:28:49 The T60 sure looks appealing 19:28:49 It's not bad, but I always thought it was a bit pointless versus just a sorted list 19:29:09 Deewiant: It's much easier to see which networks have a better signal 19:29:19 As it can happen unconsciously, instead of looking at a meter 19:29:29 Than from a list where the top one is the best and the worse are below? 19:29:38 That doesn't give you an idea of scale 19:29:47 True 19:29:48 e.g., you might think the Levkoff Network is only slightly worse than the belkin54g 19:29:50 Although, does it matter? 19:30:05 Sure, it affects the speed 19:30:13 Yes, but does anybody care 19:30:25 I mean, you'll try from fastest to next-fastest anyway 19:30:28 Or? 19:30:32 If you're going to show it, might as well 19:30:37 It doesn't hurt 19:30:47 14.1" - starting at 2.17kg/2.34kg (4.8 lb/5.2 lb) 19:30:54 Could bring that down by replacing with an SSD 19:31:39 They're much lighter than HDDs? 19:31:43 Yes 19:31:54 A double-platter notebook HD is, like, 400g 19:31:59 A single-platter, say 200g 19:32:04 An SSD is roughly 80g 19:33:06 How very noticeable, 200g versus 80g :-P 19:33:44 Deewiant: Sure. 19:34:36 Deewiant: Combine with e.g. removing the optical drive 19:34:57 Which weighs what, another 80g? :-P 19:35:40 Deewiant: No, more like 200g, I'd say 19:36:01 And 2.02kg vs 2.34kg is definitely noticable 19:36:11 Albeit only slightly, but still 19:36:13 Not really. :-P 19:36:26 We're talking about grabbing with one hand and putting on your lap, small differences are quite noticeable, I'd say 19:37:31 One issue with old notebooks is that they generally don't do wireless draft-n 19:37:40 But they have ExpressCard slots too, so that's easily fixable. 19:37:42 I do that with my evidently-3 kg R60 just fine; I honestly don't think weight matters that much 19:37:58 At least unless you want 3g wireless too 19:38:01 5+ kg is probably the annoyance point 19:38:04 Deewiant: It does, IMO 19:38:18 I mean, psychologically, not physically 19:38:40 I'd say dimensions matter more, psychologically 19:39:17 If you mean the threshold of deciding whether to take it with you, for instance. 19:39:26 There's a reason a lot of people buying the 1.36kg MacBook Air (after using, say, a 2.27kg MacBook - same dimensions) say "This is the first notebook I've come across that feels like I can carry it everywhere all day" 19:39:34 (Not making it up, I've read two things saying that, at least) 19:39:48 You could claim it's the thinness, I guess :P 19:39:54 Yeah, it's that they're Mac-people. :-P 19:40:02 Clearly :P 19:40:41 I'm enough of a geek that I'd take just about any notebook anywhere with me, though. :P 19:40:57 Also, :P 19:41:23 :-P is my most-used emoticon, I think 19:41:36 Presumably because I can't think of anything else that really means "ha ha only serious" or whatever. 19:41:40 You broke the :-?P chain. 19:41:51 Oh well. 19:41:59 I think :P tends to be used to mean "If I say this jokingly it seems bad but I don't want to present it as untrue" 19:42:11 Which, I guess, meshes with a sort of social-acceptability "ha ha only serious". 19:43:02 Also, the R-series is quite amusing; for the budget line they're not very, well, budget. 19:43:10 (belated reaction to "R60") 19:43:38 They were budget? :-P 19:43:50 It still exists, but yes, they're the "cost-cutting" budget line. 19:44:01 i.e., heavier, thicker, and a few hundred dollars lighter. 19:44:18 heh, "lighter" was a thinko 19:44:21 but I like it that way 19:45:08 -!- calamari has joined. 19:45:29 * ehird reverses entropy; * calamari is now known as squid 19:45:50 In other words, "hi" 19:45:53 hi ehird :) 19:56:13 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 20:15:46 Re the wlan-finding UI, there was that bluetooth pairing screen in some mobile: http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/08/31/samsung-rogues-bluetooth-setup-will-be-second-nature-to-air-tra/ 20:16:22 Yes, well, on a mobile there's rather less space to do that non-stupidly. 20:17:19 Also, Bluetooth is so slow it hardly matters. 20:17:23 That "list" doesn't really look very space-efficient to me. 20:17:32 Which 20:18:02 The one in that link, with the only-five-characters-shown icons all around. 20:18:10 Right 20:18:29 "The Linutop 3, sporting a custom Linux OS atop a blistering 1GHz VIA C7 CPU, 1GB of RAM and a tremendously capacious 2GB SSD, is just that sort of machine." 20:18:41 It's, uh, faster and has more storage space than my £150 crapbook. 20:18:44 Especially since the distances don't conform to anything; at least the wlan thing has the signal strenght. 20:18:48 Hooray? 20:19:08 fizzie: Oh, well that's just useless 20:19:22 (Fun facct: That "Linutop" costs a whole damn $485) 20:19:24 *fact 20:19:57 I think the local PC magazine reviewed Linutop in the newest issue. 20:20:25 My review: It's crap and I can tell you this despite having not even used it. 20:20:35 "Experiences may differ with a 14" size screen, there is no FlexView offering on that screen size." <-- what is wrong with a 15"? 20:20:48 I mean, it is a perfectly reasonable size 20:20:57 AnMaster: Quite a lot heavier, and no, no it's not 20:21:07 Not everyone has a gigantic lap 20:21:08 They did a comparison of Apple Mac mini, Asus Eee Box, CompuLab Fit-PC2 and Linutop 2. 20:21:11 Also, lower battery life 20:21:13 etc, etc, etc 20:21:24 ehird, if you cal 15" gigantic. Then what do you call 17"? 20:21:27 call* 20:21:40 17" is a stupid lugbook. 20:21:50 fizzie: Mac mini vs Linutop? 20:22:03 It's sort of like David and Goliath, except Goliath is awesome and David sucks cocks. 20:22:03 fizzie, linutop? 20:22:04 ehird: They're both physically small. :p 20:22:18 AnMaster continues to pioneer context-free IRC clients. 20:22:22 Besides, the Linutop is smaller. 20:22:34 The Linutop 3 isn't. 20:22:40 ehird, I was away for quite a bit above 20:22:42 http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/09/4sep09_linuto3.jpg 20:22:53 AnMaster also continues to pioneer IRC clients that insert a blank line every second 20:22:59 Oh, it's that big. 20:23:18 "The Linutop operating system is stored on an internal flash memory and cannot be altered by virus or mishap." 20:23:19 No mishap. 20:23:28 ehird, no I'm too busy (read: can't be arsed) to read much of the scrollback 20:23:42 http://www.mbnet.fi/nettijatkot/2009/08/minikoneet/ (in Finnish) has, in the first picture, their set of reviewables. 20:23:55 Takes a true blend of asshole to ask people to scroll up a few times for them 20:24:09 WHAT THE FUCK GOOGLE'S TOP BAR IS GONE 20:24:10 AAAAARGH 20:24:21 You can't switch to image search in a click any more... 20:24:34 Not gone for me here, at the very least. 20:24:41 It's gone for me :( 20:24:42 ehird, um not gone here 20:24:45 try refreshing the page 20:24:48 Switch to international google, retards 20:24:57 ehird, I am using .com one 20:25:00 Same here. 20:25:05 Then geoip. 20:25:10 I guess. 20:25:14 Or one of their sample things. 20:25:17 AB testing and the like. 20:25:30 fuck synergy... again 20:25:43 I don't think it has any holes. 20:25:50 http://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&tab=iw#hl=en&q=google 20:25:51 there we go 20:25:54 bar there for me 20:25:57 fuck UK ;P 20:26:08 -!- oklofok has joined. 20:26:17 Any holes outside the UK would be far too big, I think. 20:26:26 ehird, holes? 20:26:29 oh hah 20:26:44 ehird, anyway synergy seriously messes up copy and paste 20:26:49 other than that it is nice 20:26:59 (Extra bonus jokes: EVIDENTLY HANDS AREN'T THE ONLY HUGE FEATURE OF SWEDISH ANATOMY.) 20:27:02 *joke 20:27:13 :P 20:27:40 ehird, yeah it's true. I guess we can't hide it any more. But we do have huge brains. 20:27:57 with lots of neurons and such 20:28:05 I'm not sure that's as much a "but" as an "also". 20:28:17 ehird, gramatically? maybe 20:28:27 grammatically* 20:28:49 ehird, in fact, dropping "but" may be the best way 20:28:54 and not adding also 20:29:08 No, I mean meaningly 20:29:18 "But we do have tiny brains." would work 20:29:25 but not "But we do have huge brains." 20:29:41 ehird, yeah it's true. I guess we can't hide it any more: We do have huge brains. 20:29:43 that works 20:29:52 But also doesn't make sense. 20:30:11 ehird, sure does. It is the other thing (apart from hands) that are huge 20:30:15 as you mentioned yourself 20:30:29 Oh, true. 20:30:37 But then I'd be inclined to say whoosh. 20:30:58 ehird, whooshing yourself? 20:31:11 The Google top-bar "more ▼" link has an "even more »" option; reminds me of some interface-hall-of-shame GetRight Properties -> "Advanced"-tab -> "More"-button -> "Protocol / Icons / More / Even More" set of tabs. 20:31:13 for not realising that I continued your joke in an unexpected direction 20:31:26 I think you have to do a lot of yoga to be able to whoosh yourself. 20:31:37 ehird, sounds awesome 20:32:11 Woosh is this ringh-shaped frisbee; from the Koosh people. 20:32:12 Would seem like there's a much easier method to the same result most of the time. 20:32:40 fizzie, ringh? 20:33:10 ehird, that would be true in general of yoga I suspect 20:33:19 AnMaster: I originally wrote "ringh-shabed", and my wetware can only fix one typo per word. 20:33:30 AnMaster: I'm going to go ahead here and say whoosh 20:33:45 -!- ehird has set topic: #esoteric is ringh-shabed http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 20:33:45 fizzie, doesn't - make it count as multiple words? 20:34:25 No, just spaces count. Sorry, my language output module is pretty limited. 20:34:54 fizzie, like a (possibly) advanced version of fungot? 20:34:54 AnMaster: shall we get back to the present? he's been known. we reptites will rule the world in a mere door that keeps us bound, hand, foot...and tongue kid? ...oh, it's you, isn't this morbid? the great adventurer toma levine rests in a grave to the north. it's a great place for a picnic! heard that magus's place... 20:35:06 ^style 20:35:06 Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 20:35:09 ct? 20:35:13 Obviously Chrono Trigger. 20:35:14 Chrono Trigger. 20:35:21 fizzie: <3 20:35:21 You must not have played it if you had to ask ^style. 20:35:22 fizzie, "obviously?" 20:35:25 * AnMaster googles for this term 20:35:36 "Chrono Trigger" that is 20:35:40 It means a type of trigger. 20:35:42 On a gun, you see. 20:35:46 It makes the sound "chrono". 20:35:53 Also it's a movie about tigers. 20:35:56 Tigers that can talk. 20:35:56 ehird, ... 20:35:57 Oh, I thought it makes it shoots cronons. 20:36:02 fizzie: That also. 20:36:08 ehird, um google seems to indicate it is a snes game? 20:36:11 not a movie 20:36:12 Weird. 20:36:20 Maybe it's a game adaptation; it's old enough. 20:36:22 Is it about tigers? 20:36:32 Come to Kenya, we've got lions. 20:36:36 Furthermore, can they talk? 20:36:45 fizzie: Ha! A quote from the sequel, Chrono Wossname. 20:36:50 I... think. 20:37:17 ... 20:37:17 Yes, probably. The quotation generator just returns the output; no multiple return values in *my* brain. 20:37:27 and for nintendo ds too 20:37:35 I wonder, is there any DS emulator? 20:37:39 There's a Playstation port, too. 20:37:45 And yes, there are multiple DS emulators. 20:37:47 Yes, there are DS emulators. Many. 20:37:50 fizzie, any good game? 20:37:51 fizzie: <3 again 20:37:54 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server"). 20:37:58 fizzie, what about Wii emulators? 20:37:58 OpenC2E should be able to run DS *watches ehird kill him* 20:38:03 Soon we'll have to gay marry, what with all this <3ing. 20:38:04 The DS bootstrap 20:38:25 You don't need a Wii emulator if you have a functioning bladder. 20:38:27 DeSmuME is I guess the sensible open-source one; I have no clue what it's game compatibility is. 20:38:30 ehird, happy marry xmas? 20:38:33 http://www.dolphin-emu.com/news.php ;; wii emulator 20:38:36 * AnMaster ducks 20:38:41 AnMaster: what? 20:38:58 AnMaster, thanks. 20:38:59 ehird, you said happy marry 20:39:08 Sgeo, for what? 20:39:09 DeSmuME's probably best feature is that it provides the GDB stub thing; you can attach GDBs for the ARM 7 and ARM 9 into it. 20:39:09 Sigh. 20:40:38 http://tr.froup.com/tr806.gif 20:40:41 AnMaster, ^ 20:40:55 Though there's also No$gba (it does GBA and DS both) which they say is good for debugging; but that one is a Windows thing and costs money. 20:41:04 Sgeo, err what has that got to do with the meaning I used the word "duck" in 20:41:07 No$gba is free. 20:41:11 They just put the free download link below. 20:41:18 http://tr.froup.com/tr794.gif 20:41:22 AnMaster, nothing in particular 20:41:28 kay 20:41:33 fizzie: Also, the free version has less features. 20:41:46 Yes, the free one is the "for gamers" one. 20:42:03 Gamers? More like gaymers. 20:42:06 The "for debugging" one has a $15 shareware home-use version, but it had some sort of silly restriction, can't remember what. 20:42:12 BECAUSE THEY'RE GAY. 20:42:34 ehird, I'm glad to hear they are happy. 20:42:44 that joke got tired in 1960 20:42:46 or sth 20:42:52 (and yes insert obvious joke about "glad" there) 20:43:02 the great gladsby 20:43:12 ehird, ooh that one I didn't think of :D 20:44:20 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsby:_Champion_of_Youth is, incidentally, rather uncomfortable to read. 20:44:37 ehird, ever read the great gatsby? 20:44:43 (+/- spelling) 20:44:49 I don't think so, actually. 20:44:53 I would say it is rather tedious 20:44:59 had to read it in school a few years ago 20:45:08 in some English course or such 20:45:09 Atlas Shrugged is tediouser! 20:45:26 ehird, haven't heard of that one 20:45:28 Especially that speech, I hear the first part of it lasts 8 minutes when spoken or something 20:45:33 AnMaster: Ayn Rand's crazyfest. 20:45:52 AnMaster: Summary: http://www.angryflower.com/atlass.gif 20:46:28 * Sgeo had to read Anthem at school 20:46:36 Sue them for destroying your brain 20:46:42 (This applies equally well to any bad programming course) 20:46:46 Anthem? 20:46:58 Another Rand book. 20:47:39 If I'd get a nickel for any bad programming course I've been on, I'd probably have spent them already. 20:48:01 heh 20:48:17 ehird, I don't really know how to distinguish good programming courses from bad ones 20:48:20 If I had a nickel for every time I've accidentally bungee jumped I'd be no better off 20:48:25 Sgeo: What language? 20:48:45 ehird, various. Or are you saying that that's the criterion? 20:48:50 What languages 20:49:02 ehird, if I had a nickel for every time I argued with you I'd have at least $100 by now 20:49:16 Java and C++ so far 20:49:29 and SQL, though that's not really programming 20:49:40 AnMaster: I'm not sure we've argued 2000 times 20:49:44 and some Javascript in the Java course *facepalm* 20:49:46 Sgeo: Almost certainly sucks 20:49:46 and ALICE 20:49:48 Yep 20:49:49 Sucks 20:50:08 -!- oklofok has quit (No route to host). 20:50:13 ehird, yeah probably more. 20:50:22 C++ isn't in the same course with Java+Javascript+ALICE) 20:50:33 The C++ course has a slight chance of not sucking. 20:50:37 The other one is brain-melting. 20:50:51 I survived 20:51:02 But goo is leaking from your ears. 20:51:06 Maybe that's why you ask a lot of stupid questions :P 20:51:06 And iirc, was the only one to get a good score on the AP 20:51:53 AP? Access Point? 20:52:01 Advanced placement, isn't it? 20:52:04 Something like that, anyway. 20:52:05 well I guess your laptop has good antennas then 20:52:22 I doubt they group course grades by wlan access points. 20:52:29 fizzie, HEY! wait with explaining until after I finished my joke 20:53:09 7 minutes until I clean 20:53:11 -!- oklopol has joined. 20:53:29 ehird, btw I noticed recently at university my thinkpad has a lot better antennas than most other notebooks. Except those with pre-N. 20:53:57 They're generally wrapped all over the plac.e 20:53:59 *place. 20:54:15 ehird, hm? There are some parts of some of the houses that have bad coverage 20:54:23 ThinkPad antennas. 20:54:51 ehird, well one of them which couldn't connect had an older non-pre-N thinkpad. 20:55:05 also 20:55:13 he had one of those 9-cell batteries 20:55:21 really looks awkward 20:55:37 1. Eh, I don't need more range than 1 small building. 20:55:50 I'll use 3G internet for everywhere else. 20:55:58 2. Howso 20:56:32 ehird, well maybe it differs nowdays, but it was sticking out about 4 cm, and not straight out but more like __// 20:56:33 I don't think I've come across anything else than Scheme, C, C++, Java, Python, Prolog, MATLAB and some MIPS assembler on university courses. Well, except a really tiny bit of PL/SQL, and Sparc assembler on the compiler course since that was the target arch. It's been so very boring and mainstream. 20:56:35 if you see what I mean 20:56:43 where that should have been _/ in fact 20:57:02 What ThinkPad was this? 20:57:17 Anyway, it doesn't matter when you have it plonked somewhere does it? 20:58:04 ehird, one marked IBM. Don't remember exact model. Looked similar to mine though, slightly smaller, and had card reader below single PC-card slot on the side (instead of two express card slots on the side and a card reader a bit below the touchpad 20:58:05 ) 20:58:27 widescreen? 20:59:02 ehird, think so 20:59:07 A random, rather-obvious observation: Erroneously spatial interfaces are even more noticeable on notebooks. 20:59:15 probably 16:10 20:59:26 *8:4 LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. 20:59:26 definitely not 16:9 20:59:29 ehird, yeah 20:59:36 There are no 16:9 ThinkPads 20:59:52 ehird, sure? 21:00:13 Absolutely. The only 16:9 notebooks are shitty consumer notebooks, likely with Blu-Ray and other antifeatures. 21:00:21 And they are, without exception, glossy. 21:00:28 ThinkPads are business notebooks. 21:00:34 And all matte. 21:00:50 -!- ais523 has joined. 21:01:00 Hi ais523. 21:01:04 hi 21:01:15 ehird, because one of the R500 models I looked at was 16:9 iirc... 21:01:24 AnMaster: No. 21:01:36 ehird, oh maybe it was a non-R500 then. 21:01:38 *shrug* 21:01:43 hello ais523 21:01:52 AnMaster: No, not a ThinkPad. 21:02:06 ehird, also there are thinkpads with blue-ray 21:02:13 Not that I know of. 21:02:15 for example that one with two screens 21:02:19 Well, sure. 21:02:22 can be ordered with blue-ray 21:02:30 Nothing about that contradicts what I said, though. 21:02:40 ehird, it's a thinkpad. 21:02:47 so yes 21:03:01 You fail at reading: 21:03:09 [21:00] ehird: Absolutely. The only 16:9 notebooks are shitty consumer notebooks, likely with Blu-Ray and other antifeatures. 21:03:34 ehird, well, it isn't 16:9, but still blu-ray 21:03:40 blue* 21:03:48 Affirmation of the consequent 21:03:58 or wait, it is "blu" 21:04:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent 21:04:59 ehird, so you mean it a 16:10 with blu-ray is ok? 21:05:23 "Bad notebooks have BluRay" != "BluRay means it's a bad notebook" 21:05:27 Fallacy; not what I said; kthx. 21:05:37 ehird, right 21:05:44 (Tee hee: " A modem. - Make sure you get a so called 'WinModem'. These modems are enhanced to work better with Windows Millennium, and represent very good value for money.") 21:05:56 ehird, XD 21:06:07 ehird, oh btw I think my laptop has a modem of some kind 21:06:22 ehird, haven't seen it in lspci or anywhere else inside linux though 21:06:24 ehird: where's that quote from? 21:06:27 ais523: http://www.adequacy.org/stories/2001.8.5.172749.2140.html 21:06:38 * ais523 looks 21:06:43 Note because people really mistake this: Adequacy is not serious. 21:06:44 ehird, is that some joke site? 21:07:05 On the famous "Is Your Son a Computer Hacker", like 90% of the comments take it seriously. 21:07:49 I mean: 21:07:59 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:08:26 BSD, Lunix, Debian and Mandrake are all versions of an illegal hacker operation system, invented by a Soviet computer hacker named Linyos Torovoltos, before the Russians lost the Cold War. It is based on a program called "xenix", which was written by Microsoft for the US government. These programs are used by 21:08:26 hackers to break into other people's computer systems to steal credit card numbers. They may also be used to break into people's stereos to steal their music, 21:08:27 using the "mp3" program. Torovoltos is a notorious hacker, responsible for writing many hacker programs, such as "telnet", which is used by hackers to connect to machines on the internet without using a telephone. 21:08:27 If your son has undergone a sudden change in his style of dress, you may have a hacker on your hands. Hackers tend to dress in bright, day-glo colors. 21:08:30 They may wear baggy pants, bright colored shirts and spiky hair dyed in bright colors to match their clothes. They may take to carrying "glow-sticks" and some wear pacifiers around their necks. 21:08:33 Popular hacker software includes "Comet Cursor", "Bonzi Buddy" and "Flash". 21:08:35 are just some choice quotes, so I really can't see how anyone can believe it. 21:08:42 Well, okay, I think I fell for it the first time. 21:08:46 But I was young! 21:08:57 ehird, you... fell... for it? 21:08:59 XD 21:09:10 Like almost everyone in the 10 pages of comments 21:09:16 Very long pages too 21:09:31 By the end I was seething. 21:09:55 ehird, what I'm asking is: joke site or lunatic? 21:10:01 Joke, of course! 21:10:04 sometimes it is hard to tell the difference 21:10:06 But I thought it was a lunatic years ago. 21:10:15 (I didn't ever think it was true, of course) 21:10:30 ehird, I mean... first time I saw that conservopedia (spelling?) I thought it was a joke site... 21:10:32 Well, troll, rather. 21:10:39 AnMaster: Half of the editors probably are 21:10:42 that was making fun of extreme conservatives 21:10:45 except the other half sees it and agrees with it 21:10:51 AnMaster: Um, extreme? 21:10:58 It's pretty mainstream Republican party stuff in the US. 21:11:08 And yes, that is *very* fucking scary 21:11:15 ehird, In the eyes of an European yes 21:11:29 Even in the UK, which is also quite right-wing, it's insane 21:11:45 ehird, yes and I think UK is pretty insane 21:11:48 hmm... is there anywhere that's more right-wing on average than the US 21:11:55 ais523: North Korea 21:12:07 ehird: is that extreme right or extreme left, though? 21:12:28 ais523, possibly it went past the point where you can see any difference 21:12:31 I don't know economically, but it's pretty much pure fascism and oppression 21:12:35 I think it wraps around 21:12:40 which is right-wing 21:12:45 ehird, wasn't Sovjet that too? 21:12:51 err 21:12:51 ehird: downtreading most of the populace is left-wing behaviour, though 21:12:52 that is 21:12:57 Soviet in English right? 21:13:00 ais523: True 21:13:01 AnMaster: yes 21:13:04 -!- pikhq has joined. 21:13:06 right 21:13:08 Let's add another direction: fuckedupwards. 21:13:26 From this we can conclude that North Korea and the Soviet Union were socially fuckedupwards on the left-right scale. 21:13:33 an extreme right-wing North Korea wouldn't train up massive armies; it would instead say everyone had to join the army or they'd get no pay 21:13:37 ehird, I think I saw some political two-axis chart thingy some time ago 21:13:43 with an attached web quiz 21:13:46 the political compass 21:13:48 It's godo 21:13:49 *good 21:13:51 ehird, ah yes 21:13:53 I'm further left than Gandi :P 21:13:58 *Gandhi 21:14:05 ehird, further down in that chart too? 21:14:12 Which was that 21:14:17 forgot 21:14:18 I was further left socially, dunno about economically 21:14:29 ..I think a MIDI of this song sounds much different than the actual song 21:14:41 I'm not socialist or communist economically, I'm a filthy regulated capitalist 21:14:42 Any sort of fundamentialists => trouble. 21:14:47 ehird, I ended up further left for both parameters 21:15:07 Ilari: You are a true thinker of this age for that stunning insight :P 21:15:11 Sgeo: Like all midis 21:15:14 -!- xfire35 has joined. 21:15:22 WHAT 21:15:23 A new person 21:15:24 Run! 21:15:27 Sgeo, pretty much given due to there being no vocals in MIDI. Well except possibly GM "Voice synth: Ah" or something like that 21:15:31 I think the vocals in the actual song are masking the part of the melody that I like 21:15:33 Hi 21:15:50 xfire35, hi 21:15:51 I don't have the MIDI on-hand though :( 21:16:09 Sgeo, what about that esolang using MIDI 21:16:13 maybe there was several 21:16:17 forgot the details 21:16:31 Isn't xfire the name of a chat thing for games? 21:16:58 it was the name of a rather good gameshow here in the UK a few years ago, too 21:17:06 probably, I like it though 21:17:31 It isn't just right-wing fundamentialists that are scary. Just e.g. watch some creationist videos... At worst they maintain that the Earth doesn't rotate and that Earth is the center of the universe... Scary. 21:17:38 Oh, naturally. 21:17:45 or 6000 yrs old 21:18:02 The flat earth society, too 21:18:17 Although that implies geocentrism and non-rotational...ism. 21:18:36 I think most people in the flat earth society are just playing devil's advocate, to get people to think for themselves 21:18:38 xfire35: Anyway, hi, this is about programming languages not esotericism. 21:18:43 Sgeo: Most on the forums, yes. 21:18:48 The society itself is dead. 21:18:56 But there are the believers on the forum; they have their own subforum. 21:19:00 It is downright scary. 21:19:21 xfire35, are you here for esoteric programming languages or the other type? (If the latter you ended up in the wrong place) 21:19:27 AnMaster: Pre-empted you. 21:19:33 ehird, oh right you did 21:19:49 * Sgeo doesn't even know what the other type is 21:19:54 I'm here about the programming languages. I've made one on the wiki 21:20:01 ah, which one? 21:20:02 Sgeo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism 21:20:08 Auo 21:20:18 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:20:30 Auo is better than most first languages by far 21:20:38 Thanks :) 21:21:01 In the language of Sgeo, "asldf" means "Hello". There. Esoterica 21:21:09 yes indeed. 21:21:17 looks quite ok 21:21:44 Sgeo: Funnily enough, that's as bad an esolang as it is esoterica 21:23:07 Aren't all esoteric languages a sort of esoteric? Only those who've learned from somewhere know them 21:23:23 Actually, all programming languages, come to think of it 21:23:23 By that definition everything is esoteric 21:24:08 Math might not be. 21:24:28 Uh huh? People know maths without learning it? 21:25:04 Well, mathematical concepts might be independently derived. Not the symbols, I guess. That's why I said "might not be" 21:25:17 Everything can be independently derived 21:25:37 Some languages don't have numbers or the concept of counting within them. 21:27:04 Of the two esoteric langs I have come up with (I should describe them), neither has any concept of numbers nor arithmetic. 21:27:51 i think he means natural langs 21:28:02 Yeah, I did. 21:28:10 ehird, langs based on ln()? 21:28:35 Almost time to clean 21:28:41 I'll go clean now 21:28:53 actually that sounds like an interesting esolang idea. Something based on logarithms 21:29:05 I like how Sgeo notified us for those crucial settings 21:29:07 Don't some natural languages have "one, two, many" or something like that? 21:29:08 *seconds 21:29:10 (now to come up with something interesting for those ideas) 21:29:37 I think it is Polynesian tribes or something. 21:30:30 Someone should make a wifi router that gets its internet connection from a wifi-connected computer. 21:30:43 Then you can e.g. share mobile internet at a meetup of some sort without plugging in your notebook. 21:30:44 OTOH, some classification had "class 0 natural numbers" go up to 6... 21:31:04 Isn't that an Access point? 21:31:25 It might exist but I'm not so sure about the wifi-sourced connection bit; don't they use ethernet generally? 21:31:29 *does, not might 21:31:40 ofc wireless routers that get their connection from ethernet exist 21:32:04 ehird, why use an AP at all 21:32:12 What's the alternative? 21:32:14 ehird, the computer can act as one can't it? 21:32:22 WIFI ad-hoc mode? 21:32:27 AnMaster: Does that work? 21:32:32 Ilari: So that's what that's for? 21:32:38 If so, cool, never mind then. 21:32:47 Ilari, well that and I'm pretty sure I heard about someone using a mac-mini (running freebsd) as a regular AP 21:32:53 Don't you need, like, software or something? 21:33:01 To routerise. 21:33:15 I guess there must be something for it. 21:33:18 ehird, well yes. But that is just an command away 21:34:20 ehird, I mean it is trivial to use the NAT module in iptables to set up a bridge 21:34:23 or NAT 21:34:27 Cool, then. 21:34:30 On the computer that acts as gateway... But other computers have to be configured to use it as gateway. 21:34:59 DHCP might work... 21:35:00 ehird, I'm not sure how trivial it is to set up the computer's wlan card as an AP though, but I'm pretty sure it is possible 21:35:06 (and not as ad-hoc mode) 21:35:21 Ilari: Can't they just connect to it as a wifi network? 21:35:23 Ilari, well yes dhcp is trivial to get working too 21:35:33 ehird, pretty sure the answer is "yes" 21:35:48 well, not for ad-hoc mode obviously 21:36:05 How do you do it with ad-hoc mode? 21:36:18 ehird, unsure. But ad-hoc mode is more like a p2p mode 21:37:21 ah... iwconfig wlan0 mode (Managed|Ad-Hoc|Master|Repeater|Secondary|Monitor|Auto) 21:37:27 ehird, that is how you set the mode 21:37:36 (on linux that is) 21:37:57 I believe Master is the mode to use for acting as an AP 21:38:05 and Managed is the normal mode 21:38:09 when you connect to an AP 21:38:20 An issue with that wifi-sourced AP, anyway, is that it'd need batteries and such. 21:38:23 you could then setup NAT as well as a DHCP server 21:38:31 ehird, well yes obviously. 21:38:43 unless it was connected to a power plug 21:38:45 Which would be deathly if they ran down before your computer. 21:38:46 Yes, and "Master" doesn't work everywhere; but certainly for many chipsets. 21:39:01 fizzie, oh? Didn't know that 21:39:25 For the zd1201 USB stick I have, for example, you need a special firmware file in order to get it to AP mode. 21:39:41 fizzie, well I haven't tried anything but managed mode 21:39:47 well,* 21:40:44 btw does anyone know if firewire 400 and firewire 800 devices can interoperate? 21:40:54 in this case I was thinking about ethernet over firewire 21:41:09 I did OS X's "Internet sharing" from my 3G modem to WLAN at the department student seminar thing which was out there in the wilderness; I'm not sure whether that makes the computer look like an AP or just publishes an ad-hoc wlan network, since obviously I couldn't see it myself. Other people had no trouble connecting, though. 21:42:05 fizzie, you don't have built in wlan? 21:42:24 Er, yes, of course, but there was no wlan available out there. 21:42:32 fizzie, why the usb stick then? 21:42:39 ... 21:42:41 3G modem. 21:42:41 So I had to use the built-in wlan to share the interwebs I got from the 3G stick to other people. 21:42:45 Mobile internet. 21:42:50 ehird, " For the zd1201 USB stick I have, for example, you need a special firmware file in order to get it to AP mode." 21:42:55 Oh, that. 21:42:57 that sounded like it was a wlan thingy 21:43:00 That's from time before the iBook. 21:43:03 ah ok 21:43:14 fizzie: That was basically my hypothetical usecase, btw. 21:43:27 Also, this iBook is one of the G4 ones and not a silly clamshell right? 21:43:27 ehird, anyway yes of course it is possible. 21:43:28 If so, :( 21:43:29 That sux :P 21:43:46 Yes, it's the iBook G4. 21:43:52 laaaaaaaaaaaame 21:44:06 Shoulda got one of those scorching 12" PowerBooks :P 21:44:10 ehird, I have a clamshell G3 one. Which would by that logic be even cooler 21:44:19 There are no clamshell G4s 21:44:31 brb 21:44:33 The "clamshell" model certainly looks more... professional, sure. 21:44:37 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e9/Clamshell_iBook_G3.jpg → http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Ibook12.jpg → http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/IBook_G4.jpg 21:44:53 (Note how ugly that second one's keyboard is!) 21:45:11 "Yes, all those strange squiggles in place of letters." 21:45:18 Not that :P 21:45:31 But it looks crappy to type on. 21:46:30 Well, that's true. The G4 keyboard is not painful, though my space bar has a crack in the middle. 21:47:36 By schorching I meant literally; those 12" PowerBook G4s — http://www.wap.org/journal/jan03/powerbookg500.jpg – were known to be unkind to thighs. 21:48:07 Pain is the price you pay for a spiffy laptop. 21:48:18 In this case, I think "notebook". 21:48:38 Because, you know, laps. 21:49:05 Just be sure to wear something non-flammable. 21:49:25 "Gaim-Thinklight is a plugin for the multiprotocol messenger Gaim that makes the ThinkLight flash on incoming instant messages" 21:49:27 cute 21:49:38 Heh, it's by that german haskell... dude. 21:50:21 Grr, archive.org respects robots.txt even for vanished sites 21:50:47 There is (was?) a kernel config option in the ppc-arch Linux kernel that made the "I'm sleeping" led in the iBook work as a HD led, flickering on disk activity. I think nowadays the led's been included in the sysfs-or-whatever-controllable things. 21:51:01 The ThinkLight illuminates the whole keyboard, though. 21:51:06 'Tis rather more noticable. 21:51:13 *noticeable 21:51:21 What is the ThinkLight usually used for? 21:51:21 Oh, it's like that. 21:51:42 Another Archlinux user? 21:52:01 who? 21:52:12 fizzie 21:52:22 Er, no. What made you think so? 21:52:32 "ppc-arch Linux kernel" 21:52:41 Oh, that was just "ppc-architecture". 21:52:44 ah 21:52:53 Though I think there are Arch users on channel, I've seen it talked about. 21:53:04 It is awesome :D 21:53:26 I'm more of a Debianist-by-tradition-if-not-for-other-reasons myself. 21:53:30 I wonder if this Logitech Illuminated backlight is somehow computer-controllable too. There's a special physical button to switch between "off" and the three intensity levels, it might be that they haven't bothered to build in any support for communicating back to the keyboard. 21:53:58 [21:51] Sgeo: What is the ThinkLight usually used for? 21:54:01 illuminating the whole keyboard. 21:54:09 I mean, when it's controllled 21:54:11 controlled 21:54:17 Eh? 21:54:28 A notification, if you mean the gaim plugin. 21:54:40 i.e., "Hey, you got IMed, look at your taskbar". 21:54:46 What other programs use the ThinkLight like that? 21:54:51 Is what I meant 21:55:14 Sgeo: Related: http://tinyurl.com/mnos6w 21:56:40 Apparently, Kopete, and Evolution *spit* 21:56:58 I use Creationism instead. 21:57:03 Well, "Creation" I guess. 21:57:24 The "clamshell" model certainly looks more... professional, sure. <-- professional? 21:57:30 Yeah, lolwut? 21:57:32 I think that is the opposite 21:57:36 It looks like a kid's fake laptop 21:57:38 You know, those spelling tutor things 21:57:52 What can Evolution do that Thunderbird+extensions can't do? 21:57:55 Er, this "lsusb -v" output for this keyboard is rather strange: there's 2 USB interfaces on the thing; first one is a HID-class Keyboard-protocol one (which makes sense) but the second one speaks the HID "Mouse" protocol. Both only do interrupt-transfers from the keyboard to computer, though. 21:57:56 ehird, ooh that sounds familiar 21:58:05 ehird, I think I saw one once 21:58:06 Sgeo: Nothing. 21:58:12 Sgeo: New species! 21:58:17 What can Linux do that Windows can't do, apart from not suck? 21:58:17 Do most people use linux/BSD distros on their computers here? 21:58:20 (I mean, besides be all GNOME-exclusive-y) 21:58:25 fizzie, hey don't steal my joke 21:58:36 Sgeo, sync to pda without too much pain possibly 21:58:41 Sgeo, and calendar 21:58:43 xfire35: I use OS X, but on my new notebook will probably dual-boot Windows and Ubuntu or something. 21:58:56 ehird, run the games that I want to play, without pain in either setting up WINE or setting up a VM 21:59:06 AnMaster, Thunderbird has a caldendar extension 21:59:19 Sgeo: Using your same method of talking, Thunderbird can't be called Evolution 21:59:20 Do most people use linux/BSD distros on their computers here? <-- I certainly do 21:59:27 Can you not comprehend that other people have different preferences? 21:59:29 But in linux, you could run it with a VM (XP) with less RAM required than Vista 21:59:29 and I bet it is pretty common, not everyone though 22:00:08 xfire35: But not much less than 7 22:00:16 Anyway, VMs still don't work very well for 3D games. 22:00:37 What other programs use the ThinkLight like that? <-- anything that can be made to poke a file in /proc iirc 22:00:38 I can boot with less that 70mb RAM being used, that's into Openbox 22:00:44 or was it /sys? 22:00:57 whatever, I prefer to use mine for what they are actually intended for 22:01:00 Probably in /sys, that's more modern. 22:01:06 Stick XP ontop, ~200mb, can 7 do it <300mb? 22:01:12 fizzie, I think you can do it both ways 22:01:33 People who I know use Linux in here: ais523, AnMaster, BeholdMyGlory, bsmntbombdood_, clog (:P), comex_, Deewiant, EgoBot (:P), fizzie, fungot, GregorR, HackEgo (:P), pikhq. 22:01:34 ehird: i'd like to see that mystical sword for myself! geez! we must use? take off. get off! the name's bandeau. here to build the ocean palace! and if you wish! we shall hold this position to the last man! big fire where lavos fall from sky! we no can call you " knight cyrus fell while protecting our kingdom from magus. i'd stay away! 22:01:41 *fungot (:P) 22:01:41 ehird: but, we are far outnumbered! are you leaving! that sword alone can't stop, crono! 22:01:59 -!- oklofok has joined. 22:02:13 Sysfs-poking says the "keyboard" interface is event0, and the "mouse" in the keyboard is event1. What. 22:03:17 Hey, new people here → obligatory blurb: fungot's sources -- and don't start with the "sword alone can't stop" again -- are at http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 22:03:17 * Sgeo uses Linux sometimes 22:03:17 fizzie: you! take! we find! see ya around! the trial! what has gotten away with this! a top secret document has been left behind? marle lucca 22:03:55 Though I think there are Arch users on channel, I've seen it talked about. <-- me for example, I use Gentoo, Arch and Ubuntu. 22:04:11 I use Arch :D 22:04:25 got to love Pacman 22:04:31 That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! That sword alone can't stop! ... 22:04:34 I mean, when it's controllled <-- it is to light up your keyboard. When it is dark. Fn+PgUp toggles it on/off. 22:04:34 Anyway, brb. 22:05:21 Hey, new people here → obligatory blurb: fungot's sources -- and don't start with the "sword alone can't stop" again -- are at http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 <-- wait I missed that. What is the sword alone thingy? 22:05:21 AnMaster: it's a machine that looks like you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have the masamune! 22:05:34 -!- xfire35 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:05:36 AnMaster: It's what it often says in this ct style. 22:05:46 Often? 22:05:55 Well, sometimes, but repeatedly. 22:06:05 it likes ! though 22:06:11 Why does it do that, anyway? 22:07:01 fizzie, I really should try that game. What with everything now I don't dare try to get it though. If you see what I mean. 22:07:25 I really don'y grok this keyboard. All normal key comes via the event0 device; but few of the silly media-keys ("home", "email", "search", uh... "a guy", "calculator", "eject", "music", "rewind", "play/pause", "fast forward") but not all (for example "thing-with-many-windows" and "cog-in-front-of-screen") come through event1. 22:07:37 (The things in quotes are my interpretations of the icons here.) 22:07:54 fizzie, "a guy"? 22:08:07 "thing with many windows"? 22:08:14 "cog in front of screen"? 22:08:17 fizzie, PIC! 22:08:21 seriously 22:08:41 There's just this icon of a person in there, how am I supposed to know what it means? I guess it could look a little like something I've seen in a MSN-messenger-related context. 22:09:22 Heh, and typically all other keys except those three generate some keysyms according to xev. 22:09:46 I think there was a picture of this already available, I'll try to find it. That camera battery is somewhere I'm not sure where. 22:10:23 http://www.everythingusb.com/images/list/logitech-illuminated-keyboard-full.jpg -- you can sort-of see them, though they're pretty small. I'm talking about the orange stuff on top of the function keys. 22:11:02 illuminated? 22:11:09 wait, this sounds like a conspiracy! 22:11:14 Why is there no insert button? 22:11:18 Okay, here's a big picture: http://www.ricdes.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/21.jpg 22:11:29 Oh, there is 22:11:30 Deewiant: You're going to have to ask logitech; but it's there above del, actually. 22:11:32 Why is it up there 22:11:36 And why is there no scroll lock button 22:11:58 Deewiant: Scroll-lock's a Fn-style function on pause/break. And really, I have no clue what's up with the layout. 22:12:11 Right 22:12:15 It just felt nice to write with, and they hadn't done *completely* horrible things to it. 22:12:34 The bottom row (with space bar) is raised a bit too much though. 22:12:40 The caps lock button seems unnotched, which is nice 22:13:04 fizzie, it doesn't look like full depth? 22:13:12 It has those mostly-in-laptops scissor-style keyswitches, which I sort-of like. 22:13:15 with that I mean traditional one 22:13:22 No, it's a bit flat. 22:13:24 fizzie, can't stand then on full sized ones 22:13:28 Yeah, they're alright; better than rubber dome, at least 22:13:38 it's somehow ok on laptops though 22:13:42 Deewiant, rubber dome? 22:14:05 fizzie, also how can you survive without "insert"? 22:14:08 What almost every non-laptop keyboard these days comes with. 22:14:32 sadly this keyboard I have here is showing slight jwz tendencies on ctrl and shift. Far from as bad yet 22:14:45 AnMaster: I just press delete accidentally instead. (Okay, not *every* time, and there *is* insert, it's just in the wrong place.) 22:14:46 Deewiant, how would that work? 22:14:49 AnMaster: As we just discussed, insert is there, just dislocated. 22:15:15 How would what work? 22:15:22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_technology#Dome-switch_keyboard ? 22:15:25 Deewiant, ah see it now 22:16:57 This is a weird sort of cross between the traditional and the modern turned-90-degrees strangeness, like the one seen in http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/23893_01.jpg 22:17:37 If that's the modern one. I'm not sure, I've just been seeing "2x3-sized-block instead of 3x2-sized block" keyboards in the recent years. 22:17:38 fizzie, shudder that turned looks horrible 22:17:53 The fashion seems to have passed a bit now. 22:18:23 Deewiant, hm I think mine is rubber dome, yet it is quite nice to type on, compared to many other rubber dome ones. 22:18:26 There was some sort of "dump /dev/input/eventN format events in a human-readable form" app, but I can never remember the name. 22:19:03 Yes, there are differences. But just about all rubber-dome switches suck compared to just about all mechanical switches. 22:19:15 Deewiant, well I never liked the clicky sound 22:19:21 though the feeling was nice 22:19:29 There are non-clicky mechanical switches as well. 22:19:44 sounds nice 22:22:18 http://hothardware.com/cs/blogs/mrtg/archive/2009/03/09/mechanical-key-switch-keyboards-demystified.aspx has a Flash video in which a person demonstrates the sounds of various switches 22:22:52 No rubber dome for comparison, though, IIRC. 22:23:04 Ah, it was called evdump. But dumping the events didn't help me much; it's like they've just arbitrarily decided to send a few of the USB key events through another endpoint, and one which says it speaks the "Mouse" HID protocol, yet still send key events. Or something. 22:24:18 fizzie, heh. Got those keys working though? 22:24:27 well I guess you wouldn't use them much 22:25:26 all but one fn key combo works on my thinkpad. And that is Fn-PrtSc which is sysrq. Can't get magic sysrq to work 22:25:43 evdump says the thing-with-a-guy sends KEY_MESSENGER, but the two others send nothing recognizable. 22:25:59 there is a KEY_MESSEGNER defined? 22:26:43 Yes. 22:26:54 huh 22:26:58 from a markovbot in another channel: "Hold a decentlength intelligent conversation using six words or parentheses without being a lazy and don't pay the people entertained." 22:27:04 and what sort of standard is it in? 22:27:17 #define KEY_MESSENGER 0x1ae /* AL Instant Messaging */ 22:27:22 Obviously no sort of standard. 22:27:39 fizzie, likely that other keyboards would define 0x1ae to be something else then? 22:28:11 It is possible that it's in the HID standards, actually. 22:28:18 ah 22:28:26 Trying to check now. 22:28:28 fizzie, is there a C compiler key? 22:28:36 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:29:25 Should I watch the MST3k episode for Future War? 22:29:54 I doubt that; just "launching" a C compiler is probably not that useful. 22:30:09 There is a KEY_DATABASE, though. 22:30:31 fizzie, heh 22:30:41 fizzie, KEY_VI and KEY_EMACS? 22:31:08 And anyway these are the linux kernel keysyms, from the input layer; it's the driver's problem to translate whatever physical the keyboard sends into KEY_MESSENGER properly. I guess I could check which bit of code does that. 22:32:39 Heh, yes; /dev/input/by-id shows the first one as "usb-Logitech_Logitech_Illuminated_Keyboard-event-kbd" and the second one as "usb-Logitech_Logitech_Illuminated_Keyboard-event-mouse". 22:32:45 That's one rather strange mouse, I think. 22:33:36 heh 22:34:57 fungot: give me some markovness 22:34:57 ais523: see? i like marle better than " princess,' the chosen time has come! he's strong and he's gonna thrash those monsters! yea! is it? 22:35:01 There's a "hid-lg" driver doing -- in lg_wireless_mapping -- case 0x1014: lg_map_key_clear(KEY_MESSENGER); My keyboard could possibly be handled by that, even though it's not wireless. 22:35:10 ^style 22:35:10 Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 22:35:15 ^style ct 22:35:16 Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script) 22:35:20 Chrono Trigger seems like the best corpus yet 22:35:38 best in which sense? 22:35:42 Deewiant: It's a matter of taste; I don't think AnMaster liked it much, or ehird either. 22:36:30 well I'm fine with it 22:36:32 Actually the messenger key might even be in the standards; from hid-input.c: "case HID_UP_CONSUMER: /* USB HUT v1.1, pages 56-62 */ -- case 0x1bc: map_key_clear(KEY_MESSENGER); break;" 22:36:34 For one, it seems to be relatively verbose 22:36:44 just don't get the reference due to never having played the game 22:36:53 what is the messenger key? 22:37:03 Deewiant: It's also the only one done with the variable-length n-gram toolkit, though with probably suboptimal parameters. 22:37:23 That might explain something. 22:37:25 ais523: There's this icon of a... well, a guy, in one of the "media keys" of my keyboard. We were wondering what it does. 22:37:46 ah, the button for opening MSN Messenger 22:37:54 it's one of Microsoft's latest attempts to do yet more subtle lock-in 22:38:10 wow, I hate Messenger so much... 22:38:37 The logo is not actually exactly the MSN/Live Messenger buddy-icon guy. 22:38:49 I still think I've seen this particular one somewhere. 22:39:45 Well, maybe I've seen it on my keyboard. Eh. 22:39:56 I've seen it on someone else's keyboard 22:40:07 wow, keyboards are so complicated nowadays, it doesn't really seem to help 22:40:21 because all the random extra buttons are so far away that just chording with another modifier key is faster to type 22:40:43 even shift-F11 is faster than pressing the shortcut-menu key, on this relatively simple laptop keyboard 22:40:46 because I don't have to move my hand 22:41:27 ais523, shortcut menu? 22:41:29 Oh yes, it is in the USB standard. 22:41:32 and what is shift-F11? 22:41:50 shift-f11 seems to insert something cryptic in my terminal when I try it 22:41:50 AnMaster: on Windows, they're the keyboard equivalent of right-clicking on whatever's keyboard-focused 22:42:01 ais523, oh you mean my compose key ;P 22:42:03 HID usage tables, "consumer page", 1BC -- "AL [Application Launch] Instant Messaging". 22:42:30 AnMaster: that's possibly quite a good key to use as a compose key 22:42:36 but when I have a compose key at all, it's C-x 8 22:42:36 ok I sucessfully managed to talk PPP with my phone, didn't manage to connect using it though 22:42:50 internet on it works though 22:42:58 but not internet with computer using it 22:43:22 There are rather strange keys in here; "AL" launch keys for: "Digital Wallet", "Online Community", "Market Monitor/Finance Browser", "Research/Search Browser", "Customized Corporate News Browser". 22:43:23 ais523, caps lock as additional ctrl btw 22:44:20 also for some reason enabling blue tooth makes the computer "hiss". Very odd. High pitched noise (think CRT) 22:44:36 similar issue that I had with some usb devices (sometimes) 22:44:45 and the bluetooth shows up in lsusb hm 22:44:51 very strange 22:47:08 Aaaactually hey, it might be that the keys that come through the other event device because the keysyms are from another "usage class" (consumer device, vs. keyboard). Still doesn't explain why it pretends to be a mouse, though. 22:47:32 My old mouse pretended to be a keyboard, IIRC. 22:49:38 Deewiant, :D 22:53:56 [22:10] fizzie: http://www.everythingusb.com/images/list/logitech-illuminated-keyboard-full.jpg -- you can sort-of see them, though they're pretty small. I'm talking about the orange stuff on top of the function keys. 22:53:57 I see no dudes, really ugly font, and ugh, I hate that layout of the del/home/end bit (have it on a keyboard here) 22:53:57 [22:13] fizzie: It has those mostly-in-laptops scissor-style keyswitches, which I sort-of like. 22:53:57 Scissor-switches are godly. 22:53:57 [22:19] Deewiant: There are non-clicky mechanical switches as well. 22:53:59 You still bottom out a hard surface, so it's clickier than rubber dome. Also, tactile switches are the devil; they're harder to type on, in my experience. But you can get non-clicky non-tactile mechanical switches too. 22:54:02 [22:26] ais523: from a markovbot in another channel: "Hold a decentlength intelligent conversation using six words or parentheses without being a lazy and don't pay the people entertained." 22:54:05 The first part is probably a direct quote. 22:54:07 Flood over! 22:54:17 ehird: yes, probably 22:54:25 especially as "decentlength" isn't a correctly spelt word 22:54:39 I thought it was an interesting concept, though 22:54:42 It probably finished "lazy ass/bastard" or something. 22:55:12 -!- oklofok has joined. 22:56:44 I wonder if you can buy a Model M-style keyboard to replace a laptop keyboard with :) 22:56:50 IN A MEETING FAR, FAR AWAT 22:56:52 *AWAY 22:57:00 ehird: you wouldn't replace the keyboard, you'd just use an external one 22:57:26 And we are going to leverage the synergistic opperCLACK CLACK CLACKof the business poteCLACK CLACK CLACK and we SHUT THE FUCK UP, JOHN! 22:57:32 ais523: That isn't portable. 22:57:53 It always befuddles me when people buy a notebook and proceed to bog it down with a ton of stationary accessories. 22:58:38 ehird: I'm somewhere in between; I can use my laptop either by itself or with accessories 22:58:40 ehird: There was a bigger picture later; the "guy" is in F4. 22:58:48 I need an external mouse if I want to do mouse stuff at all, for instance 22:58:53 fizzie, isn't one word missing from this fungot style? 22:59:00 but overnight I'll just balance it on top of the duvet, and use it with nothing but the power cable 22:59:00 That's not the MSN guy, at least. 22:59:07 fungot, hello? 22:59:07 AnMaster: you, with you standing around! the trial! what has gotten away with this! a top secret document has been left behind? marle lucca 22:59:07 AnMaster: your majesty! and queen. he and a friend left on a journey 10. all functions are down... got the terra arm and the crisis arm! found a dreamstone! i'd forgotten how beautiful they are the evildoers? magus's lair! you brave! he's probably up north, to guardia!!! let's toast our land! now we'll have some peace! magus is a tad on the spooky side. our only hope. 22:59:12 Yes, it might just be some Logitech guy. 22:59:14 ^style 22:59:15 Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 22:59:19 ^style c64 22:59:19 Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material) 22:59:22 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:59:25 fungot, hi 22:59:25 AnMaster: the shape data in the corresponding ram at 57344-65535 ( e000-ffff). to do with the formula hibyte=int(ad/ 156) and an overflow error will occur. the opening of an and operation with the problem of mistaking the keyboard 22:59:27 fizzie: Also, wow that Fn key is huge and replaces the windows/alt keys. 22:59:30 I guess they hate ergonomics. 22:59:31 ^style irc 22:59:32 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 22:59:33 fungot, hi 22:59:34 AnMaster: not in the taskbar or alt-tab 22:59:35 -!- oerjan has joined. 22:59:40 -!- oklofok has joined. 22:59:43 well meh now I hit it's limit 22:59:50 ais523: I plan to use my notebook with nothing plugged in or associated (wirelessly), even the power cable (unless at a desk). 22:59:51 *its 22:59:55 Yes, the fn thing is another drawback in this. I don't really use it. 23:00:08 fizzie, whatever that word for "only happened once" was 23:00:11 ^style ct 23:00:11 Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script) 23:00:20 This makes my standards for the notebook a lot more stringent, which is good because I don't want to be stuck using something inferior outsid. 23:00:23 *outside 23:00:47 Well, I also have a requirement to get a laptop, not a notebook, so I should probably say that. 23:00:50 AnMaster: Huhwat, what word? 23:00:58 fnord 23:01:00 I think 23:01:04 ah yes that one 23:01:06 is what he means 23:01:07 Oh, that. 23:01:08 I forgot it XD 23:01:24 Oh, "only happened once" like *that*. Right. 23:01:27 I'm a bit slow. 23:01:34 Your mom only "happened" once. 23:01:38 She isn't very good in bed. 23:01:43 fizzie, anyway why isn't it saying fnord at all now? 23:02:02 I didn't do the replace-rare-token-with-UNK with all models. 23:02:13 Unk unk unk 23:02:26 Particularly for ones like the Chrono Trigger script where there's so little of data. 23:02:29 I wonder why there aren't any notebooks that come with cooling pads attached 23:02:39 ^style irc 23:02:39 Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams) 23:02:45 fungot: Say something fnordy, please. 23:02:46 fizzie: that's a piece of source code anywhere there's whitespace. i think 23:02:52 heh 23:03:04 That wasn't fnordy. But it should still be saying it occasionally. 23:03:10 fungot: 'ardly hever 'appens 23:03:11 oerjan: i am listening to johnny cash fnord prison blues. -w and use strict; mitigate that somewhat, but it 23:03:21 oerjan: You're better at this. 23:03:36 Using Perl switches helps mitigate the effects of Johnny Cash's album Fnord Prison Blues. 23:03:37 but of course 23:03:52 Er, song. 23:04:12 fizzie: http://xkcd.com/628/ may be relevant here 23:04:27 I can reference xkcd. I am culturally relevant ETC 23:04:43 http://xkcdsucks.blogspot.com/2009/08/comic-628-i-predict-this-comic-sucks-i.html :P 23:05:01 no you cannot, you can only blather cynically 23:06:19 Admittedly 628 was quite good. 23:11:23 AnMaster: iwc :D 23:11:37 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:11:51 oerjan, read it hours ago 23:12:00 oerjan, and yeah that annotation was great 23:12:03 you say that as if it _matters_ 23:12:11 haven't read it yeat 23:12:14 oerjan, of course it does 23:12:14 *yet 23:12:40 oerjan, I mean the deconstruction of the humour in the comment makes ryan north seem normal 23:12:48 s/comment/annotation/ 23:12:58 i wasn't referring to your second line. how fast do you think i type? 23:13:14 -!- oklofok has joined. 23:13:19 (and you asked for it, if you haven't read it before mentioning it... it is your own fault) 23:13:31 D: 23:13:49 oerjan, I never mention it before I read it myself 23:14:03 though if I mention it first I don't provide any spoilers until I'm sure you read it too 23:14:31 -!- dbc has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:14:32 but since you mentioned it first this time... of course that means I'm free to provide spoilers :P 23:14:42 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3522/3890449002_949d56b7c7_o.jpg is #1 on reddit. Not like everyone saw this in 2007 when Leopard came out or anything... 23:15:11 The comments are predictably "gee this is horrible mindbending advertising" followed up by "LOL YEAH MAC USERS ARE DUMB". 23:15:35 (I like how the blue screened monitor is shiny.) 23:15:36 http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3522/3890449002_949d56b7c7_o.jpg is #1 on reddit. Not like everyone saw this in 2007 when Leopard came out or anything... <--- is the icon for pc server actually like that on macs? 23:15:36 NANANANANA I CAN'T HEAR YOU 23:15:40 AnMaster: Yes 23:15:46 ehird, :D 23:16:06 ehird, and that is a CRT too right? 23:16:10 Yep 23:16:19 ehird, with non flat surface 23:16:20 :D 23:16:37 I've never seen a flat CRT other than the old TV in my life. 23:16:43 I'm a low-end curmudgeon! 23:16:48 Or a whippersnapper. WHO KNOWS 23:16:51 ehird, I seen both flat and curved CRTs 23:17:10 I'd like to see one of those super-awesome high end flat CRTs just so I can laugh at it because it's still blurry and whiny. 23:17:23 ehird, whiny yes, but not blurry 23:17:31 that is my experience at least 23:17:38 and less whiny than low end ones 23:17:40 Every CRT I've seen has been extraordinarily blurry; is there really _that_ much variance? 23:17:48 I'd think it's inherent, knowing how CRTs work. 23:17:52 ehird, you never seen high end ones then 23:17:55 They're not exactly LCD plotted pixels... 23:18:00 AnMaster: Yes. 23:18:38 Health concerns 23:18:38 Related terms: 23:18:39 Electronic waste 23:18:39 Different from Template:See, this template takes a mutiple parameters of any length. 23:18:39 ehird, that is true, but I'm talking about good ones at pre-press or similar. Seen those since I know someone working on a newspaper. 23:18:39 Use commas and joining words like "and" or "or" as separators. 23:18:39 Remember to wikilink the target pages; the template does not do it automatically. 23:18:41 —Wikipedia 23:18:45 Followed up by: 23:18:46 See also 23:18:47 {{Details}} 23:18:49 {{main}} 23:18:51 {{See also}} 23:18:53 {{For}} 23:18:55 Section template samples 23:18:57 AnMaster: "Yes" as in "indeed, I haven't". 23:19:10 ehird, um 23:19:17 But really, IPS gets such good colour reproduction nowadays that anyone buying a new CRT in such a field is just stupid. 23:19:19 ehird, "that is true" as in " They're not exactly LCD plotted pixels..." 23:19:21 :P 23:19:24 Ah. 23:20:15 ehird, also the colours were awesome. And calibrated with high end hang on thingy. Of course this was a few years ago. As in "when apple still made high end pre-press CRTs" 23:20:29 Hey yeah, Apple did used to make CRTs. 23:20:49 ehird, old imacs had CRTs 23:20:53 rather good ones IME 23:21:01 Well, yes. 23:21:03 since I used first and second model imacs too 23:21:11 The iMac CRTs are blurry. 23:21:18 ehird, not as bad as most PC ones 23:21:26 I have one (I broke its optical drive somehow after wiping the OS so it won't boot) 23:21:28 and the good apple ones were MUCH better 23:21:42 Apple seem to be rather a fan of high-quality displays; Apple's 24" glossy Cinema Display, aimed squarely at the secondary notebook display crowd, is IPS... 23:22:05 nice 23:22:11 — and therefore everyone goes "OMG APPLE MARKUP" because it costs $899, having now idea what the words IPS or TN mean. 23:22:22 *no 23:22:36 why isn't everyone using IPS? 23:22:38 ehird: TN = twisted-nematic? 23:22:42 Oh, it's also LED backlit, making it part of a very rare breed: LED-backlit IPS. 23:22:44 ais523: Yes 23:22:45 IPS = ? 23:22:53 IPS = Best LCD technology EVAR 23:22:56 International Postal Service! 23:23:00 (or something) 23:23:03 Huge gamut, really wide viewing angles (basically NO colour distortion) 23:23:07 Huh. 23:23:12 So, that's a damned good monitor. 23:23:13 I'm one of those people who knows enough electronics to know about twisted-nematics, but not enough ehirdness to know whether it's meant to be good or bad 23:23:15 ehird, what is the downside now again? 23:23:19 price? power usage? 23:23:22 I forgot 23:23:25 AnMaster: probably price 23:23:37 -!- oklofok has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:23:43 Downsides: It's very thick, so you'll only find it on separate units. It's heavy, so ditto. And the displays cost around $1,000. 23:23:51 ehird, ah 23:24:02 ehird, so not very "flat" screen then? 23:24:09 It's flat, just a bit thick. 23:24:10 (which makes sense -- Apple has always been obsessive about their display quality) 23:24:19 ehird, you said "very" thick 23:24:21 Apple's 24" is 19cm deep and probably the thinnest. 23:24:34 Some are as thick as modern iMacs. 23:24:37 ehird, 19 cm? wow 23:24:41 picture 23:24:50 http://www.apple.com/displays/ 23:24:51 I seriously want to see this 23:24:58 ais523: TN has terrible colour reproduction, and the colours distort very quickly if you tilt them a bit 23:25:07 but they're thin and cheap, so they're on almost all notebooks and desktops 23:25:14 ehird: yes, it was invented for black-and-white, so I'm not at all surprised 23:25:29 What you're looking at right now is almost certainly TN. 23:25:32 agreed 23:25:35 I think the iMac displays are IPS. 23:25:41 Mine certainly has all the properties of it. 23:25:44 although, it's pretty good for looking at images with borked alphas 23:25:53 *gammas 23:25:53 The newer models are glossy, mine isn't. 23:25:59 This is pretty much my favourite display ever. 23:26:07 I can change the gamma of the screen through a massively large range just by tilting it 23:26:11 :D 23:26:13 The side profile certainly looks like most of the 19cm is still the stand, http://images.apple.com/displays/gallery/images/image4_20081014.jpg 23:26:15 also, this screen works in direct sunlight, which surprises me 23:26:21 fizzie: Oh, I see. 23:26:27 ehird, sure about that 19 cm? 23:26:29 ais523: Is it glossy? 23:26:31 AnMaster: See fizzie. 23:26:37 ehird: I think so 23:26:53 Huh. Just played with tilting my LCD screen a bit. 23:26:55 ah 23:27:03 ais523: Glossy displays tend to wash out in the sun as opposed to matte ones, which just get blocked out 23:27:05 it basically just reflects the sunlight rather than using a backlight 23:27:13 OTOH, glossy displays are awful indoors 23:27:17 my laptop has more colour distortion than my desktop for some reason 23:27:35 even though neither is IPS. Definitely not pricey enough for that 23:27:35 Anyway, this iMac has, like, two dead pixels. And the colours are perfect. And it's really sharp. Only disadvantage is that the contrast is kind of crap. 23:27:37 ... I'm not noticing the usual LCD distortion. Maybe I'm just bad at noticing that on modern LCDs, because I'm pretty damned sure this is a crappy monitor. 23:27:52 I wake it up from sleep in the morning and think "wow, those whites aren't very...white". 23:28:06 pikhq: Try moving instead and looking at it from an angle 23:28:34 ehird: Did. 23:28:37 ehird, contrast doesn't matter iirc? 23:28:38 ;P 23:28:42 AnMaster: Backlight 23:28:45 instead of display contrast 23:28:47 AnMaster: oh, another disadvantage of IPS: response times 23:28:57 ehird, ah 23:29:02 ehird, hm ok 23:29:02 Most IPSes are 16ms response time, give or take. 23:29:10 Although their gray-to-gray response times are about 8ms. 23:29:13 LCD is never going to get up to the response times of things like LEDs; but then, LEDs are impractical for screens smaller than a few metres 23:29:14 Still, it's fine for everything but gaming. 23:29:21 ais523: See: OLED 23:29:25 It exists, but is barely noticable. 23:29:45 ais523: They're thin, have good colours, incredibly good contrast and don't need any backlight. 23:29:51 And they can be translucent. 23:29:53 And bend,. 23:29:59 And use very low power. 23:30:00 ah, yes 23:30:02 And are very lightweight. 23:30:05 ehird, what about response time? 23:30:07 Can't wait for them to become practical 23:30:10 AnMaster: Sub-1ms 23:30:16 well under 23:30:18 Yes 23:30:19 ehird, then why isn't everyone using them!? 23:30:24 Cost. 23:30:27 AnMaster: Very large expense right no 23:30:27 w 23:30:29 Wait a year or two 23:30:29 ah 23:30:38 LEDs have response times so good that they're often pulsed at incredibly fast speeds rather than dimming them 23:30:40 That's not stopping them from being used, though. 23:30:49 Just in displays of reasonable cost. 23:31:02 But yeah, OLEDs are like someone wrote in a deus ex machina to a book about displays. 23:31:20 in fact, pulsing LEDs means you can put more power into them 23:31:34 (you can *get* OLED TV sets, they just cost a lot.) 23:31:42 And they're only like 11" 23:31:42 and if you want a really bright LED display, it works better to massively overdrive them about 20% of the time and let them recover the other 80%, then run them at max continuously 23:31:48 *than 23:31:54 I wonder if PVA (compromise between IPS and TN; a bit worse colour reproduction but faster response times) is thinner than IPS. 23:32:03 I'm sure there's been some IPS ThinkPad at some point, though. 23:32:04 ais523, yep 23:32:10 Eh. High-quality TN is "acceptable". 23:32:39 ehird, not when it comes to colour 23:32:48 I'm going to randomly guess I have high-quality TN, simply because the gamma distortion is only even barely noticable at rather high angles. 23:32:55 AnMaster: Fine for most photography, at least. 23:32:59 I'm going to randomly guess I have high-quality TN, simply because the gamma distortion is only even barely noticable at rather high angles. <-- same 23:33:06 ehird, think pre-press ;P 23:33:06 pikhq: How much did your display cost? 23:33:10 AnMaster: Naturally. 23:33:16 ehird: $150-ish. 23:33:17 (http://static2.rubyrow.net/Advertisers/bluebox1.gif How ironic! The space is misplaced.) 23:33:23 pikhq: You just have bad eyes, or got lucky. 23:33:28 Your colour reproduction still sucks balls. 23:33:33 ehird, when I talk about high quality monitors I mean the same thing that Apple do :P 23:33:35 Yes, it does. 23:33:55 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:34:04 I can notice the crap color reproduction. Just not much distortion. 23:34:22 (I've seen it on other LCD displays. That's just... Horrifying) 23:34:22 My display doesn't even dim until I'm practically perpendicular with it 23:34:40 In general I found distortion is worse on laptops than desktops 23:34:49 I wonder whether all those "LOL APPLE COMPUTERS ARE OVERPRICED" comparisons include an IPS display. 23:35:27 Eh, there is a good chunk of markup from Apple, but a lot of the price delta *is* from Apple just straight-up using more expensive parts. 23:35:50 I think Apple adds something like 25-30% 23:35:55 which is typical for high-end products 23:35:57 Sounds about right. 23:36:46 There's a 40" OLED 1920x1200 panel from Samsung. (Of course you can't *buy* it, it was just demoed in some sort of trade show from their pilot non-mass-production line. 23:37:06 Samsung or someone are releasing a 19" OLED, iirc 23:37:07 No, 1920x1080. Anyway. 23:37:08 soon 23:37:17 fizzie: Nice 55dpi there. 23:37:27 Well, it's a TV. 23:37:27 (Yeah, yeah, TV, I know.) 23:37:29 :P 23:37:52 wouldn't a 200 dpi TV be just awesome? 23:37:59 The 40" demo was already back in 2008, I guess they should be getting something produced sooner or later too. 23:38:42 AnMaster: no, because anything above 1080p isn't available anywhere 23:38:50 ehird, oh right 23:38:56 Besides, at around 175dpi you can't see pixels without a magnifying glass. 23:39:06 Anything above that just gets much more expensive quickly. 23:39:12 ehird, there is no kill like overkill 23:39:22 You just made that up, please tell me you just made that up. 23:39:26 Because it's STUPID. 23:39:28 ehird, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.ThereIsNoKillLikeOverkill 23:39:43 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:39:48 Safari is so irritating after having used Chrome on XP. 23:39:57 ehird, answer is: no, I just wanted to be able to link tvtroupes 23:40:02 err spelling 23:40:03 If there's one thing that setup was, it was snappy. 23:40:04 tvropes* 23:40:08 -!- dbc has joined. 23:40:33 Tvropes. 23:40:36 It's ropes onna TV. 23:40:52 heh fail at spell correction 23:41:00 ehird, did you click that link? 23:41:10 Yes, and closed it after having only clicked one more page, not in a tab. 23:41:16 I am manly and I have willpower. 23:41:17 ehird, damn 23:41:25 AnMaster: you mean you were trying to tropise ehird 23:41:25 By the way, if you don't correct it soon that typo will be forever typo'd. 23:41:26 ? 23:41:33 ais523, yes of course 23:41:35 AND YOU WILL NEVER LIVE DOWN THE SHAME 23:41:39 AnMaster: why? 23:41:47 ais523, why not? 23:41:56 (incidentally, I've never visited TV Trpoes and don't know what all the fuss is about, but loads of people have warned me off it) 23:42:04 TV Trpoes! 23:42:06 ehird, tvtropes of course 23:42:21 ais523: It's addictive because they link almost everything and it's always to an interesting and funny article about that thing with tons of examples and you click it and 23:42:25 ais523, it is just very... addicting 23:42:48 ais523, you know that xkcd about clicking around on wikipedia for hours? Well it is kind of like that, but more extreme 23:43:07 AnMaster: I'm unlikely to know about any particular xkcd unless it's been quoted so much that you get kickbanned for quoting it again 23:43:24 Ropes are the "very long strings" class in SGI's STL implementation. 23:43:25 ais523, you can get kickbanned for quoting xkcd? 23:43:25 Don't worry, you're not missing out on anything. xkcd suuuuuuucks lately. 23:43:46 AnMaster: Tons of IRC channels are heavily policed in that way to make the conversation better. 23:43:49 AnMaster: I've never seen it happen, but probably 23:43:57 ais523, http://xkcd.com/214/ 23:44:02 Experience shows that an anarchic environment is a lot less annoying and generally has at least as good conversation quality. 23:44:03 AnMaster: which one's that? 23:44:05 also that one is old enough to not suck 23:44:05 e.g. #esoteric 23:44:09 I don't know the numbers off by heart yet 23:44:12 ais523: It's about Batman 23:44:13 ais523, ... the one about clicking around on wikipedia 23:44:16 as I said 23:44:28 AnMaster: Stop it, you're feeding his I Will Not Use a Web Browser habit :P 23:44:38 I don't get it 23:44:43 ehird, yeah I encourage it. 23:44:51 AnMaster: ;_; 23:44:58 ais523: The thing with xkcd is that there's hardly ever a punchline. 23:45:05 It's funny because, uhh, you're culturally in-the-know or something. 23:45:05 ehird: well, yes 23:45:10 I do get some of them, though 23:45:23 You know what Wikipedia is! Sometimes I get to wildly different pages when clicking on Wikipedia. 23:45:25 You may have done this! 23:45:33 You can sympathise with me and understand my cultural position. 23:45:39 Therefore: Ha ha ha! Humour! 23:45:43 ais523, and I get that xkcd. Ever realised that you ended up clicking around for hours? 23:45:47 oh, xkcd is meant to be funny? 23:45:51 I thought it was meant to be insightful 23:46:00 ais523: it fails even harder at that... 23:46:07 AnMaster: That does not a joke make. 23:46:18 ehird, no, but it is insightful 23:46:33 Incidentally, something xkcdsucks pointed out: Every time a girl is named in xkcd, the name Megan is used. And: http://xkcd.com/215/ 23:46:43 Bawwwwwwwwwwwwww she broke up with me maybe if I mention her in my comic all the time ;_; 23:47:01 I'd seriously bet he actually broke up with someone called Megan 23:47:31 ehird: http://xkcd.com/322/ has a girl named Joanna 23:47:50 Hmm, dark-haired girl then 23:47:54 But still, almost all 23:48:03 That comic, incidentally, also lacks a joke 23:48:14 Unless his ANGER AT PEOPLE MAKING BAD JOKES ON THE INTERNET transforms into humour somehow 23:48:26 yes; but I'm on xkcd's IRC network atm playing mafia, and comic 322 is the strongest-enforced rule there 23:49:18 Willingly spending time around xkcd fanatics? Well, I guess mafia doesn't involve too much discussion beyond, well, mafia. 23:49:47 ehird: the channel appears to have nothing to do with xkcd in particular, apart from the server 23:49:55 it's mostly full of nomic players, it seems sometimes 23:50:01 well, about the same density as this channel 23:50:01 foonetic isn't xkcd's network, btw 23:50:13 ah, yes 23:50:13 it's just only popular because of xkc 23:50:13 d 23:50:29 well, I was connecting via irc.xkcd.com 23:50:34 but I suppose I could just connect directly 23:50:36 irc.ubuntu.com 23:50:39 It's Ubuntu's IRC network! 23:50:45 um that is freenode right? 23:50:54 >_< 23:50:55 ehird: is that freenode or not? I failed to determine after trying to tell for a while 23:50:58 Yes, it is. 23:50:58 why these aliases? 23:51:03 it seems to be sort-of freenode, but sort-of not 23:51:08 ais523: How is it not 23:51:19 ehird: e.g. it recognised that the name ais523 was taken, but wouldn't let me identify 23:51:27 ais523, you could have joined #esoteric to check 23:51:30 Maybe it's a different Freenode server. 23:51:31 IIRC, this was ages ago 23:51:41 AnMaster: I'll try 23:51:54 ais523, or just used host or nslookup 23:52:07 "irc.ubuntu.com is an alias for chat.freenode.net." 23:52:09 yeah 23:52:28 oh and: 23:52:29 -!- ais523_telnet has joined. 23:52:30 irc.freenode.net is an alias for chat.freenode.net. 23:52:30 Who even uses chat.freenode.net as opposed to irc.? 23:52:44 ehird, everyone. indirectly 23:52:46 OK, definitely the same network 23:52:50 Yes, but directly. 23:52:51 yep 23:52:52 ais523: 23:52:54 ehird, no one? 23:52:57 [23:52] AnMaster: "irc.ubuntu.com is an alias for chat.freenode.net." 23:53:15 I noticed that, but I was halfway through the test already 23:53:27 and it's rather hard to notice other people's messages over tlenet while you're typing 23:53:32 -!- ais523_telnet has quit (Client Quit). 23:54:04 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:54:20 -!- oklopol has joined. 23:55:05 I wonder if my dream last night was lucid or just fake-lucid (i.e. dreaming I was lucid). 23:55:18 I was certainly very apprehensive about jumping out of the window despite a good amount of proof I was dreaming. 23:56:14 I suppose that could just be my "don't jump out of windows" instinct, but I'm usually out of that window pretty quickly after becoming lucid. (I always seem to start lucid dreams in my bedroom when it's day.) 23:57:16 (idea: convince him that he is dreaming to make him jump out his window?) 23:57:24 (don't try at home) 23:57:38 That would require rather drastic changes to the fabric of reality. 23:58:08 Also, I never open it, it's always just open when I'm about to jump. 23:58:17 Although one time I jumped out of it while it was closed, I think. 23:58:19 ehird, what about me starting talking about advanced stuff in haskell suddenly? 23:58:32 That could work. 23:59:16 ehird, or ais talking like Mike Riley? 23:59:29 (I mean, for a long time) 23:59:43 (and not in the context of making some joke) 23:59:48 Ooh, I remember one missed opportunity for lucidity from ages ago: I was in the bathroom, just standing around. Suddenly, a translucent, unrealistic ... old army? I don't know, but a stampede, came running through. To avoid them, even though they appeared entirely intangible, I ... went on the wall? Or just stayed to the side. Something, anyway. They passed. I remember thinking about dreams at one point, but obviously that was real. I didn't think it strange