< 1252455601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1252456701 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252456710 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.104.243.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252456723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :test < 1252456781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1252456795 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.104.243.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252456808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, ChatZilla appears to be vaguely passable on windows < 1252456814 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is... unexpected, I guess < 1252456820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering how much it sucks on OS X < 1252456865 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION has not tried it on OS X and so cannot comment < 1252456874 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's awful < 1252456935 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will take your word for it and subsequently ignore it and some later and more relevant time < 1252456947 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/it and/it at/ < 1252456969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that's a very confusing sentence < 1252457243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252457251 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1252457256 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.104.243.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252457846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://explainxkcd.com/ < 1252458050 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :useful < 1252458068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This was wrong. David Gest has never had a sexually transmitted infection and did not have Ms Minnelli's dog killed." --The Daily Mail < 1252458080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in a retraction letter < 1252458111 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1252458262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an easy mistake to make < 1252458288 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they keys are like right next to each other < 1252458309 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you know you're awesome when you are referencing bash :/) < 1252458326 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"awesome" < 1252459240 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=1289971.1289983 <-- "Context-Aware Scanning for Parsing Extensible Languages" < 1252459914 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so... a C++ parser? < 1252460471 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"." < 1252460882 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252461070 0 :Amiral_!n=amiral@gob75-2-81-56-65-10.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1252461075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi Amiral_ < 1252461077 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who're you < 1252461085 0 :Amiral_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ;) < 1252461093 0 :Amiral_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i was coming from http://frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/wiki/ < 1252461095 0 :Amiral_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::] < 1252461141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool < 1252461143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1252461155 0 :Amiral_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe, i m searching the guy ;) < 1252461168 0 :Amiral_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :need some help from his script < 1252461177 0 :Amiral_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he's not there ? < 1252461196 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure he is. < 1252461198 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mtve: < 1252461207 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[01:53] === mtve: away with message “Disconnected now, messages are logged” < 1252461210 0 :Amiral_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cool :] < 1252461213 0 :Amiral_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes i saw that < 1252461216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What script, anyway? < 1252461222 0 :Amiral_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigtran < 1252461238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the heck it does. < 1252461238 0 :Amiral_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you know ss7 sctp protocol ? < 1252461243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1252461357 0 :Amiral_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, when do you think he can come ? < 1252463189 0 :jix_!n=jix@dyndsl-095-033-109-214.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1252463892 0 :MizardX-!i=MizardX@h-28-236.A159.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1252463899 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1252463922 0 :MizardX-!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :MizardX < 1252463941 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1252464479 0 :Amiral_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252468342 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1252471100 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if he could hack capability-based security into linux with users... < 1252471248 0 :puzzlet_!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252471815 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"The only thing I know is that I know nothing" < 1252472016 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1252472095 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1252472230 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wb coppro < 1252475169 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1252475186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi oerjan < 1252475196 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ehird < 1252475708 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Reboot" < 1252475926 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252475951 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1252476306 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn it, I accidentally did "rm blah.avi.00* > blah.avi", instead of cat. now I have to download it again >:[ < 1252476660 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1252477068 0 :Patashu[CyberOrc!n=Patashu@c122-106-162-185.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au JOIN :#esoteric < 1252477088 0 :Patashu[CyberOrc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1252478447 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-3-119.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1252478727 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1252479904 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@80.13.78.79 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252481458 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server" < 1252481605 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1252482426 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1252482703 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1252483138 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252483199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1252483200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1252483670 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1252490586 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which concepts are related to self-organizing maps? Yahoo knows: http://correlator.sandbox.yahoo.net/index.php/concepts/self-organizing+map < 1252490616 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly it makes sense, but I find the fact that ""The Dark Horse Book of Witchcraft" is probably related to self-organizing map" a bit dubious. < 1252490768 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@HSI-KBW-095-208-140-231.hsi5.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1252492037 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1252495117 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252496357 0 :jix_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1252496357 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1252496358 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1252496358 0 :olsner!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1252496449 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r01snw275.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1252497036 0 :jix_!n=jix@dyndsl-095-033-109-214.ewe-ip-backbone.de JOIN :#esoteric < 1252497036 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1252497036 0 :olsner!n=salparot@h-60-96.A163.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1252497644 0 :Nowicjusz!n=ppp@89.72.61.249 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252497649 0 :Nowicjusz!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1252499725 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1252500397 0 :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1252500591 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi everyone < 1252500769 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi, you nobody. < 1252500783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1252500829 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just wanted to be contrasty. < 1252500914 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... today presented a data point in favour of the theory that knowing Java is nearly always sufficient to get a job < 1252501050 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My personal experience has shown that knowing Perl is the most useful thing; two out of three of my employers have been mostly in search of someone who speaks Perl. < 1252501062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I know Perl too < 1252501079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in this case, though, I've been employed to teach Java to first-year undergraduate students < 1252501082 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alongside my PhD < 1252501094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders whether Java or Perl as a first language would be meaner < 1252501098 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably Java, tbh < 1252501110 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one of my friends had Perl and Python as her first two languages, and both seemed to go quite well < 1252501121 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With Java you also can't be blamed when they turn out to be school-shooters, because "everyone else's doing it too". < 1252501156 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"school-shooter"? < 1252501171 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A person with a gigantic gun, which shoots schools out of it. < 1252501199 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be helpful over here, most of the UK faces massive competition for the good schools < 1252501214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's a perpetual row about what the fairest way to allocate schooling to peopel is < 1252501217 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*people is < 1252501232 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what doesn't help is that the government are trying to get around the problem by attempting to pass laws to make all schools identical < 1252501233 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One way is to disqualify people who write "peopel". < 1252501241 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if the shot-out schools are very good, though. < 1252501247 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a) impossible, and b) a bad idea even if it were possible < 1252501393 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, unless bureaucracy intervenes, my Master's thesis will be accepted/graded next Monday; apparently it will also be the official graduation day, even though there's some formal diploma-distribution event a month later. < 1252501560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, well done < 1252501569 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine was accepted and graded a few months ago < 1252501572 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what was it about? < 1252501594 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Methods for Spectral Envelope Estimation in Noise Robust Speech Recognition" < 1252501619 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my experience in my department is that such master's projects always go wrong < 1252501623 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it worked for you, then well done < 1252501669 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It did take quite a while longer than it should, the work part was more interesting than the writing-about-work part. < 1252501687 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually rather enjoyed the writeup on mine < 1252501705 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it helped that I didn't leave it until after the project was finished < 1252501803 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Finally I just wrote it in a month or so, because this "Helsinki Graduate School in Computer Science and Engineering" application deadline is next Friday, and they only accept graduated applicants. (The Academy of Finland -funded project my salary's been paid up to now is going to end this year, and the department would prefer it if I got some independent funding, which is what Hecse would provide.) < 1252501842 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you almost guaranteed to pass? < 1252501844 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with a good grade? < 1252501889 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me, it was nervewracking wondering whether I would get top marks or fail altogether; a quirk in the marking scheme meant that those were the only two plausible results < 1252501996 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the supervisor's and professor's statement about it suggested a 5 (out of 5); the approving Council or Conclave or what-ever probably theoretically speaking can decide anything the like, but I think failing is really ludicrously unlikely. As far as I know they could still downgrade it to 4, though. < 1252502009 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/the like/they like/ < 1252502054 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The results are sent via email the same evening, at least I won't have to wait long. < 1252502116 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's some sort of quasi-official guideline that they shouldn't be allowed to give the maximum grade without consulting a second professor, but it was a bit unclear whether that's actually observed. < 1252502190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the UK, the top few grades, the bottom few grades, and all fails, together with a random sample of the others, have to be reviewed by a second University < 1252502208 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I hope it doesn't mean they go all "okay, well, we gave it to this another professor and now you'll have to wait a month more before graduating", because in that case I'll have to do some sort of difficult handwaving in this graduate school application.) < 1252502209 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes they interview the students, too < 1252502260 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That sounds very serious. < 1252502275 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not always, because the grade has to be fixed before the interview < 1252502291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there's no way to mess up your grade by screwing up the interview < 1252502311 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if the interview doesn't match up with what the 'external examiners' think the grade should be, the university who set the exam/coursework gets into trouble < 1252502355 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aw; I was hoping they'd make the students spin a sort of wheel-of-fortune style pass/fail wheel. < 1252502372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be evil < 1252502386 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then they could broadcast it on live national TV. < 1252502426 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"graduation" is pretty close (lexically) to "gameshow" anyway. < 1252502468 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in English or Finnish? < 1252502498 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English. Er, okay, so it's just the same initial letter. It's still closer than, say, a whale. < 1252502687 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually it's as close in Finnish; "valmistuminen" versus "visailuohjelma". (I had to peek at the dictionary to see what a game show officially is.) < 1252502712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are there unofficial Finnish names for game shows too, then/ < 1252502816 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm just not sure "visailuohjelma" has exactly the same connotations as "game show". I guess it is pretty close. < 1252502830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :such concepts normally don't translate too accurately < 1252502856 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, that's probably a good way to see how repetitively derivative something is < 1252502874 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, I suspect "reality TV" translates more or less perfectly into many different languages < 1252502886 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it didn't really evolve, it just more or less got copied everywhere < 1252502894 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now, thankfully, people are getting bored of it again < 1252502951 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there is an equivalent Finnish word. < 1252503046 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fi-Wikipedia says "visailu" was a portmanteau of "visainen kilpailu", literally something like "a difficult contest" except that the word for 'difficult' is a sort of old-fashioned one. (fi:ohjelma is just "program" or "show".) < 1252503071 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not exactly very "difficult contest" any more, at least in many cases. < 1252503079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's not exactly "reality" TV either < 1252503095 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given the efforts the producers go to artificially contrive what happens < 1252503169 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think they've started a new Big Brother round here recently; that's what I most associate with "reality" TV. < 1252503178 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they've just finished the penultimate round over here < 1252503189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, channel 4 have said one more year, then they give up < 1252503201 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's quite possible that one of the smaller TV networks will buy the rights off them, though < 1252503251 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apparently this is our fifth round. < 1252503292 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the rules seem to be slightly different from place to place < 1252503314 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, I'm almost 100% convinced Wikipedia has a page somewhere summarising the differences, even though I don't know this from personal experience < 1252503392 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They certainly have a lot of material about the show. < 1252503393 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(disambiguation) < 1252503407 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All kinds of very colorful tables. < 1252503407 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be precise, the bottom of that page < 1252503433 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :44 entries < 1252503444 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including "Big Brother Second Life" < 1252503456 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some are redirects, though, and a couple are stubs < 1252503459 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also separate page for each of the five seasons for the Finnish version; I assume they extend the same courtesy to all other countries too. < 1252503464 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, definitely < 1252503475 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_2008_(Finland) is very... tabular. < 1252503559 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the "Variations in the format" section of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(TV_series) there's something like a summary of differences. < 1252503627 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, I'm reading that now < 1252503644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, as is my habit, trying to work out if Big Brother is Turing-complete < 1252503644 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In Germany a new version of the show started: Big Brother - Das Dorf (Big Brother - The Village). -- This was the first version supposed to run for years (without a predetermined end). It was set in a small artificial village including a church tower, a marketplace, 3 houses, 3 working areas -- The season ended after 363 days in February 2006 because of low ratings." < 1252503645 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is no < 1252503686 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castaway_2000 < 1252503705 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which actually predated Big Brother, and for which it's arguable whether it was reality TV or not < 1252503716 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one thing, it was actually quite good, which means that it probably wasn't < 1252503861 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... Wikipedia calls it reality TV; most people at the time called it a documentary, but that's possibly because reality TV hadn't been invented at the time < 1252503932 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For some reason I was continuously expecting some sort of gruesome massacre when reading that description page, but apparently it never happened. < 1252503936 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or maybe it's just been hushed. < 1252504218 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was no news of that presented to the outside world < 1252504229 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then, all the information we got is what the contestants themselves broadcast < 1252504236 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is very different from the way most reality TV works < 1252504440 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In the seventh UK series, Big Brother became "twisted". Every week, housemates' mental states were put to the test as Big Brother tried to break them. As a result of this, many housemates broke down." That sounds unintentionally hilarious. (Possibly only to me.) < 1252504463 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like the housemates are some sort of machines, which break down every once in a while and are then "serviced". < 1252505291 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably they were indeed "serviced".. in a mental clinic^W garage. < 1252505491 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1252505712 0 :JoelyWoely!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1252505769 0 :CESSMASTER!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1252505769 0 :JoelyWoely!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1252505886 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh. "Teen Big Brother -- was originally shot in advance -- to air in 2003 as an educational item, screened as part of Channel 4's 4Learning programming. -- On Day Six/Seven, Jade Dyer and Tommy Wright became the first Big Brother UK contestants to have sex on the show in its history. According to The Independent, this was the first real-life sexual act shown on British television --" < 1252505892 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that must've been very educational indeed. < 1252506047 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they actually showed it in schools < 1252506056 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know because I was in school at the time < 1252506071 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but they were obviously trying to contrive the situation to increase as much as possible the chance that there would be sex involved < 1252506118 0 :CESSMASTER!n=CESSMAST@unaffiliated/joelywoely JOIN :#esoteric < 1252507790 0 :MatPVB!n=test@65.82.213.44 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252507818 0 :MatPVB!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1252508956 0 :Slereah!n=butt@ANantes-259-1-43-134.w92-135.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252509177 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1252509338 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and what doesn't help is that the government are trying to get around the problem by attempting to pass laws to make all schools identical < 1252509345 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the norwegian system < 1252509351 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does it fail just as badly there? < 1252509356 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(only slightly exaggerated) < 1252509455 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well the norwegian school system is in constant need of improvement. many people think the main problem is that it has _too_ frequent reforms, so it never gets to settle into something that actually works... < 1252509543 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't really know how badly it fails, only that everyone complains about it < 1252509600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, private/alternative schools are relatively rare, although that too may start to change either way after the election < 1252509690 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the left wing seems to want to reduce alternatives but under the pretext of making the state schools better instead, while the right wing wants to allow more private and alternative schools < 1252509750 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right, the teachers complain about too much bureaucracy ... every reform comes with lots of new forms to fill out :D < 1252509793 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that it's so bad they barely have time to teach < 1252509888 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sounds like the US. < 1252509952 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least we don't have metal detectors ;D < 1252510120 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We've consolidated that by moving all the schools into airports. < 1252510142 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the scary thing is I don't even know whether you're joking < 1252510167 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1252510214 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were a select few particularly troublesome schools that had metal detectors in the US after the Columbine incident, and because news from the US tends to become distorted towards the absurd as it leaves our borders (oh who am I kidding, it's distorted towards the absurd in our borders), oerjan probably believes we all have metal detectors in our schools :P < 1252510249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1252510320 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they use handheld metal detectors at some schools in the UK, apparently < 1252510325 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking for knives rather than guns < 1252510411 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, they weren't looking for guns here. < 1252510417 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They were looking for golden idols to other gods. < 1252510420 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For our God is a jealous God. < 1252510476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252510513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : well the norwegian school system is in constant need of improvement. many people think the main problem is that it has _too_ frequent reforms, so it never gets to settle into something that actually works... <-- sounds like in Sweden < 1252510517 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1252510561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: is the Swedish government trying to make all schools identical too? < 1252510577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm not sure. Yeah it is that bad here... < 1252510578 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :induction suggests "sounds like almost everywhere", then < 1252510595 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: what about the US? < 1252510616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I think different political parties in the current government as well as the opposition all pull in different directions < 1252510633 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that might be different, or might not, depending on how Republican and/or Democratic the school system is < 1252510658 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1252510763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well the current school system is quite left wing ("social democratic" party was the head of the last government) but the current conservative government (to people from US: This means slightly left of your Democrats ;P) wants to change it iirc < 1252510792 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-10-159.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1252510800 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :schooling's one of the most powerful ways to consolidate your power for future generations < 1252510810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but if the social democratic party wins again I'm sure they will change it again < 1252510812 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can educate everyone to vote for you, then you can effectively regain your power several years later < 1252511985 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@LRouen-152-83-15-79.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252512062 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hm, it may seem that those who guessed the mythbusters had got to "good haken"'s dimension were right < 1252512300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, I don't usually read the forum < 1252512307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I wasn't aware of ths < 1252512309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this* < 1252512334 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well but do you remember good haken? < 1252512370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes, slightly < 1252512387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"vaguely" might be a better word < 1252512420 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"vaguely" is an excellent word. everyone should use it more often. < 1252512423 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ducks < 1252512498 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I typo it or something? < 1252512511 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that i noted < 1252512566 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you might vaguely recall someone here who occasionally uses that word, though < 1252512693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ... < 1252517605 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"The only thing I know is that I know nothing" < 1252519239 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1252519839 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252520817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1252520820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there? < 1252520827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think python just behaved very strange: < 1252520829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>>> -3 % 60 < 1252520829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :57 < 1252520834 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that strange? < 1252520840 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a plausible way to do modulo < 1252520845 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, the most consistent one < 1252520850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is quite different from every other language I seen iirc < 1252520872 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are three ways to do modulo with negative numbers IIRC, and they're relatively equally common < 1252520883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1252520897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what if I instead wanted the reminder? < 1252520904 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the remainder < 1252520918 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-3 / 60 = -1, with remainder 37 < 1252520922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh righ hm < 1252520927 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*57 < 1252520928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, 57 < 1252520931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1252520938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what then is it when it returns -3? < 1252520945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is iirc what C99 does < 1252520953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wrong < 1252520967 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's doing the modulo with negative numbers rather than positive < 1252520977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1252520981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and iirc that is what C99 does < 1252521043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell ((-3) `mod` 60, (-3) `rem` 60) < 1252521054 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(57,-3) < 1252521082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1252521095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, that seems exactly opposite of what ais523 said? < 1252521109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless that one is printed in reverse order or something < 1252521110 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm? < 1252521120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rem gave -3 and mod 57? < 1252521129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would assume rem = reminder? < 1252521131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1252521138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : that is the remainder < 1252521138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -3 / 60 = -1, with remainder 57 < 1252521140 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*remainder < 1252521140 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it depends on whether you think 0 or -1 is the correct answer for -3 / 60 < 1252521167 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell ((-3) `divMod` 60, (-3) `quotRem` 60) < 1252521169 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((-1,57),(0,-3)) < 1252521197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm... what is the usual way of rounding... < 1252521215 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Define "usual" < 1252521224 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :towards even numbers, obviously! < 1252521262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that makes zero sense here < 1252521304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually integer division for positive integers round towards 0 (or towards -inf if you prefer that), but those work out the same for positive integers < 1252521306 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for haskell, div rounds down, quot towards zero iirc < 1252521347 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1252521357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean... no one would round *up* for positive integers < 1252521366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(for integer division I mean) < 1252521394 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell map (uncurry div) [(-1,-3), (-1,3), (1,-3), (1,3)] < 1252521396 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[0,-1,-1,0] < 1252521423 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell map (uncurry quot) [(-1,-3), (-1,3), (1,-3), (1,3)] < 1252521425 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[0,0,0,0] < 1252521789 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scheme (R5RS) has "remainder" and "modulo" separately; for arguments (13, 4), (-13, 4), (13, -4) and (-13, -4) modulo returns 1, 3, -3, -1 and remainder returns 1, -1, 1, -1. < 1252521848 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's made that way so that for any nonzero n1, n2, you have (= n1 (+ (* n2 (quotient n1 n2)) (remainder n1 n2))); quotient rounds towards zero there. < 1252521933 0 :labo!n=labo@rt.2.nat.stcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1252523263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :question: Silly programming assignment asking about implementing a prime checking function in python, it also specifies that the prime checking function has to make use of the function you wrote just before (which was a function testing if a function is evenly dividable by another)... any idea about a non-naive prime checking function that use it? < 1252523276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I find implementing the naive one so... pointless < 1252523284 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dividing a function by a number is rather tricky < 1252523301 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... and dividing a function by another is still harder < 1252523317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err < 1252523320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :integer I meant < 1252523321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not function < 1252523334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry for that typo < 1252523365 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they're polynomials it works nicely < 1252523395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, indeed < 1252523437 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in one variable, at least. otherwise i think you need to use that gröbner base stuff which i've never really learned < 1252523539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why doesn't wikipedia has any sort of "list of algorithms for prime test" < 1252523540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1252523546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks at ais523  < 1252523572 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the decisions on what are kept and what are deleted went past the sanity threshhold years ago < 1252523595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you mean there *was* such a list at some point? < 1252523637 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quite possibly not < 1252523650 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the side-effect of deletion discussions being unpredictable is that people don't try to start the article in the first palce < 1252523651 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*place < 1252523657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primality_test isn't good enought? < 1252523663 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-t < 1252523754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, well... any answer to my original question (+plus typo correction) < 1252523799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*-+ < 1252523820 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1252523833 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(was irresistible) < 1252523837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well yeah < 1252523890 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, no < 1252523927 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-93-84.w81-50.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1252523972 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, meh < 1252524064 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how large are the numbers you'll be tested with? < 1252524087 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my suggestion for a silly algorithm is to test whether n divides into (n-1) factorial < 1252524104 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252524106 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that works, but it's kind of inefficient above single digits < 1252524117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers how that would work < 1252524131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wait, why does that work? < 1252524137 0 :xfire35!n=xfire35@cpc2-pete3-0-0-cust800.pete.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1252524142 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you also have to check to see if the number's a perfect square < 1252524156 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, suppose the number has two different factors both greater than 1 < 1252524160 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which all non-square composite numbers do < 1252524166 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then they'll both be involved in the factorial < 1252524169 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the division will work < 1252524171 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a prime, it won't < 1252524175 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and for the square of a prime, it won't < 1252524180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252524197 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually it should work for a square except maybe 4 i think < 1252524206 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you have both n and 2n in there < 1252524247 0 :xfire35!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi! I have a question about Turing-complete languages: How do I prove that I have made one? < 1252524248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the example of the function used uses 347 as one example for a prime < 1252524249 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sqrt n and 2*sqrt n) < 1252524250 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: oh, good point < 1252524255 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No need to think, 4 doesn't divide 6 :-) < 1252524256 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1252524260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is for this purpose rather large < 1252524264 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xfire35: normally by writing a compiler from some simple TC language into yours < 1252524270 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or an interpreter for a simple TC language in yours < 1252524273 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!haskell product [1..346] < 1252524275 0 :EgoBot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :83786109731741519093102185774271060272617123899294938462545650103958267551816999632384597105781115095746538999305576622259820276406705054815151795675299977497130708316332112015853587961035548260985018324781142346741012571342381443403244375423925845246705116571375322097424190407461087058820073115195230214239315368221366956527807550877343514240476697131078048765701822673835389603217404839039032161799288445236044563772647739851207128764035103255967542618 < 1252524283 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Small enough < 1252524283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Brainfuck's normally used as the comparison language for that purpose < 1252524305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was planning to go naive or more efficient :/ < 1252524307 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if you write a compiler from brainfuck into your language, then your language is TC < 1252524311 0 :xfire35!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why does that prove it is Turing-complete though? < 1252524314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well "smart naive" of course < 1252524329 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xfire35: because brainfuck is tc, and your language can do anything that brainfuck can do (due to the compilation) < 1252524333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(like, check only numbers up to sqrt(n) and check only odd ones) < 1252524334 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it must also be at least tc < 1252524342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err typo < 1252524350 0 :xfire35!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK, thanks :) < 1252524358 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xfire35: turing-complete is defined as being able to compile any turing machine to your language < 1252524360 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It proves your language can simulate something with power equivalent to that of a universal Turing machine < 1252524381 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and although you can do the calculation with an actual turing machine, using another language that's already been proven TC works well < 1252524399 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however, if you have something else that a turing machine can be compiled into (i.e. something also tc) then you can go via that < 1252524410 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :brainfuck, P'', SK combinatory calculus are all good source languages < 1252524430 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't proving that there is transform algorithm from some language and that if the original halts, the result will too enough? < 1252524435 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do C++ if you feel ambitious < 1252524452 0 :xfire35!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That would be... interesting < 1252524463 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xfire35: Is there description somewhere? < 1252524489 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xfire35, what about using BCT? (or has it been mentioned already?) < 1252524492 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: you have to prove the other way round too, that if the original doesn't halt, the result won't < 1252524502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc BCT seemed popular for proving TCness recently < 1252524508 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, good point < 1252524529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I was wondering why _you_ of everyone skipped BCT in that list < 1252524540 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BCT's good if the language you're trying to prove TC doesn't have much in common with other langs < 1252524562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. if it doesn't have any sense of numbers, or data and code have a distance restriction between them < 1252524566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how was BCT proven TC btw? < 1252524574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The proof must have been.... interesting < 1252524576 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: via tag systems < 1252524578 0 :xfire35!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is there another way to prove TC, I have already nearly written one interpreter < 1252524583 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :proving BCT simulates a tag system is pretty simple < 1252524583 0 :xfire35!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1252524585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and how was tag systems proven TC? < 1252524602 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xfire35: interpreter for what? < 1252524615 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xfire35: all TCness proofs can be expressed in terms of being an interpreter for something < 1252524616 0 :xfire35!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The language I am writing. I also did another one a while back < 1252524637 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just writing an interp for your language isn't enough to prove anything but an upper bound for its class, and you're looking for a lower bound < 1252524664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xfire35, oh we didn't mean that, of course such an interpreter is very useful too. We meant writing an interpreter _in_ your language, _for_ a known TC language < 1252524669 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :writing a program in your language, or a compiler to your language, are the only ways to prove TCness < 1252524682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, actually, writing an interpreter is enough to prove it "TC or less" < 1252524683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1252524687 0 :xfire35!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, I gathered that. It would just be annoying to do so. < 1252524690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nah < 1252524695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, yes < 1252524701 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use it to put an upper bound on its class < 1252524702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, unless you write it in a super-TC languag < 1252524704 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :language* < 1252524707 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah exactly < 1252524720 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xfire35: BCT is super simple though < 1252524724 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :likewise, if you write an interp for something in BackFlip, for instance, you know it's termination-testable < 1252524737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yep < 1252524760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how was backflip proven termination-testable? < 1252524771 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by proving it always terminates < 1252524797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also writing a bf interpreter in a language isn't enough to prove said language _exactly_ TC. It would be "TC or more" < 1252524812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could write a bf interpreter in banana scheme easily enough < 1252524813 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that's what "proving something TC" means to me < 1252524821 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"TC or more" and "TC" are the same thing < 1252524826 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO, banana scheme /is/ TC; it can just do more as well < 1252524830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, hm ok < 1252524846 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that would probably be turing-_hard_, by analogy with NP < 1252524863 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252524866 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well... what would you call proving "no less, and no more than TC" < 1252524882 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np hard means that if it's P, then so are all NP-complete problems, but not vice versa? < 1252524903 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: TC == can compute every Turing-computable function < 1252524916 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np hard means anything in np can be reduced to it, but it's not necessarily in np < 1252524923 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "TC and computable" < 1252524925 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :np-complete means it is also in np < 1252524939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wait... NP-complete being a subset of P? That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense < 1252524962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: if P=NP, then NP-complete is a subset of P < 1252524973 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if P != NP, then they're disjoint < 1252524978 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ais523 is confusing the definition of np-hard/complete with the p vs. np question itself < 1252524985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's sort-of the essence of np-completeness < 1252524989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wouldn't that mean that basically every crypto except OTP would be seriously fucked? < 1252524996 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: well, yes; although, I think my statements are probably true anyway < 1252525009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well possibly quantum cryptos too, but don't know enough about them to be sure < 1252525016 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well true but imprecise < 1252525030 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't confuse symmetric and asymmetric crypto. < 1252525047 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, if P != NP, there are things strictly between P and NP-complete < 1252525049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, hm, only asymmetric ones would be fucked? < 1252525054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, that would be bad enough though < 1252525085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what would that class be? < 1252525109 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantum cryptography doesn't care about P=NP; it's based on physical principles, not mathematical ones < 1252525132 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's also a few asymmetric cryptosystems not based on the factorization problem; none of them very widespread or (maybe) quite as well-analyzed as you might want. < 1252525135 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least if quantum computers with large bitness became practical, they would totally fuck most asymmetric algorithms. But would be probably quite hopeless against symmetric stuff like AES-256... < 1252525166 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: QBP is probably going to end up between P and NP, isn't it? < 1252525168 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the discussion had went away from the factorization already. Heh. You are so fast. < 1252525174 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless, ofc, P = NP, but that seems rather unlikely < 1252525200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: well, grover's algorithm gives you an O(n^2) improvement for any algorithm at all < 1252525204 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: probably, but it's not proved even assuming P != NP afaik < 1252525213 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's suspected that for general algorithms, you don't get an improvement better than that < 1252525223 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yeah. AES-256 is still 2^128 work even with it. < 1252525237 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: yep, neither P != QBP nor QBP != NP is known < 1252525257 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however there is a proof that if P != NP then you can construct something in an intermediate class. iirc it uses something diagonalization-like < 1252525325 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, there may be some weakness in AES that can't be exploited with classical computer but could with quantum computer. But one can say that generic attacks won't cut it. < 1252525377 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i don't recall we actually went by factorization at all this time ;) < 1252525386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, yay my encrypted partition is safe! < 1252525395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(against quantum computers) < 1252525404 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wasn't that what AnMaster's programming assignment all the way up there was about? < 1252525407 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have also heard about some groups which have DDH probably outside BQP (but of course still in NP). < 1252525408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least it seems so) < 1252525415 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Primality testing, factorization; pretty close. < 1252525427 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: no, just prime testing, also it was an unrelated conversation really < 1252525438 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.104.243.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252525455 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok ehird is here, everyone keep silent < 1252525465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is a for loop in python always "for i in "? Or is there "C-style" for loop too? < 1252525471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: former < 1252525476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for i in xrange(1,10) < 1252525477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so while loop it is then < 1252525485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what are you trying to do? < 1252525485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or I would run out of memory quickly < 1252525491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1252525493 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xrange is a generator < 1252525494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no memory used < 1252525499 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's why you use xrange instead of range < 1252525504 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, prime test < 1252525510 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xrange is a generator < 1252525512 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no memory used < 1252525514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah right < 1252525519 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, while "range" isn't? < 1252525523 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1252525528 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in python 3, range = xrange < 1252525531 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's no xrange < 1252525533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :range itself is a cruft < 1252525538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*relic, not cruft < 1252525543 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So how do you get a range? < 1252525548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xrange < 1252525549 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: If you are using that (p - 1)! == -1 (mod p), use modular multiplication... Keeps numbers down. < 1252525555 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: You know what I meant. < 1252525562 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: you can do sequence operations on it < 1252525570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you really need a list, list(xrange(...)) < 1252525636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, well I wasn't going for that one, I don't want bad marks (nor do I want to be held responsible for the teacher getting a heart attack!) < 1252525656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1252525669 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.104.243.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252525693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :windows sure is vaguely annoying when it breaks < 1252525698 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 6th-degree version of AKS? :-> < 1252525728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wolfram got six degrees just for writing that awful book and released a special edition for it? < 1252525730 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deary me! < 1252525745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari, did you see that bit about the assignment specifying that you had to make use of a function that is: f(a,b): return A % B == 0 < 1252525761 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(newlines + indention omitted for brevity) < 1252525763 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: your uni sucks btw < 1252525771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sure. < 1252525773 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, "def" omitted too < 1252525777 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also it's indentation < 1252525779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that was a typo < 1252525783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: the problem is to write a Python program that tests a number for primality, using an "is-divisible-by" operation < 1252525786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(def I mean) < 1252525793 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I actually looked it up and indention is also correct < 1252525797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and AnMaster's looking for a non-obvious solution < 1252525804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Contrary to popular belief I'm not retarded < 1252525805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed < 1252525817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, selection broke < 1252525819 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :woot < 1252525819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it just happens to mean something else < 1252525820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1252525832 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: No, they mean the same thing. < 1252525833 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.104.243.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252525839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh? Interesting < 1252525848 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of < 1252525857 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indention is typographical < 1252525859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indentation is code < 1252525863 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but indention is never used anyway < 1252525878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sure is, an indentation in a wall? < 1252525880 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err.. < 1252525887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I only ever seen indention in that context :P < 1252525896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hur hur. < 1252525919 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that context, "indention" is evidently archaic < 1252525931 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And "indentation" isn't) < 1252525932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, the wall context? < 1252525945 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes < 1252525948 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1252525959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, maybe I only read archaic books then < 1252526013 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:48:18 AnMaster: 6th-degree version of AKS? :-> < 1252526015 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11:48:48 Wolfram got six degrees just for writing that awful book and released a special edition for it? < 1252526016 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was a joke, btw. < 1252526056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I wasn't responding to that line as far as I know? < 1252526112 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also what has wolfram got to do with AKS? < 1252526305 0 :xfire35!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1252526323 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was replying to ais523 in the past. < 1252526340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, whoosh. < 1252526361 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AFS < 1252526437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iirc that is Andrew File System in the linux kernel < 1252526445 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea who Andrew was < 1252526464 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it is Acronym Failure Syndrome < 1252526501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"ChatZilla 0.9.85-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.0.13/2009073109]" < 1252526508 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Andrew < 1252526545 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a highly revolutionary file system < 1252526749 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.104.243.245 JOIN :#esoteric < 1252528012 0 :labo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1252529684 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1252531060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Huh, apparently John Resig (of jQuery fame) founded #haskell. < 1252531686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was there ever a CRT laptop, I wonder? < 1252531780 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"QuitIRCServerException: MigoMipo disconnected from IRC Server" < 1252531795 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1252532008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Was there ever a CRT laptop, I wonder? <-- yes I think so. At least it sounds familiar < 1252532040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't mean like a single-line text display. < 1252532072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I mean more like 5nnx3nnn or so < 1252532078 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1252532079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3nn < 1252532083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviousl y < 1252532091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously* < 1252532100 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3 nanometers < 1252532136 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that would be "nm" not "nnn" < 1252532146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't even look similar < 1252532157 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Depends on font < 1252532169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, assuming a decent font of course < 1252532172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is nnn? < 1252532176 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or even nn. < 1252532184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, any two numbers < 1252532188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1252532193 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. < 1252532194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any two one digit positive integers < 1252532197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be exact < 1252532211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5xx x 3xx would have got that intent across. < 1252532221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the x there in the middle confused things < 1252532225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO < 1252532236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also I'm tragically using Arial due to being too lazy to find a properly hinted Windows Helvetica. < 1252532257 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tragic indeed < 1252532263 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1252532692 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252533208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://core.trac.wordpress.org/changeset/11762 < 1252533228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The WordPress remote vulnerability bug? Simply omitting the permissions check on all the option pages in the administration interface. < 1252533236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The keys are, like, right next to each other. < 1252533271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So uh, anyone still using WordPress on a remote server? Relatedly, anyone currently on crack? < 1252533433 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gah, I frigging hate Nokia. Given how much in love they are with Symbian I was pretty sure I could just disqualify all their phones; and then they go and do that N900 thing. < 1252533459 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Touchscreen keyboard, man. < 1252533468 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, no. < 1252533476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uhh. < 1252533481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Really really tiny keyboard, man? < 1252533497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also do all Finns have a weird thing for phones? < 1252533501 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it's not a really tiny *touchscreen* keyboard. < 1252533517 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's pretty close to a cross of their "internet tablet" things and a phone. < 1252533541 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just that mooz said it's good; how can I really disagree? (He's been playing with a prototype at his mobile-development job.) < 1252533547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it's not a really tiny touchscreen keyboard that lets you touch pixels by saying the x and then y position into a low-quality bluetooth headset which then compresses it with low-quality windows media audio and runs Vista's speech recognition algorithm on it after adding white noise to the background. < 1252533602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Also it looks thick. < 1252533639 0 :Rugxulo!n=user@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1252533643 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Anyway, there aren't many apps for maemo atm are there? < 1252533646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Maemo < 1252533665 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alright, it's probably cheesy, but here's my latest Befunge abomination / creation: http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?p=101447#101447 < 1252533682 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not very impressive, I admit, but it took a while, so meh) < 1252533686 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure; it's just that it feels far more open-wide than, say, Android. < 1252533689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My IRC client broke that link at "flatass". < 1252533699 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So I was trying to figure out what a Flat Ass Embler was for a second. < 1252533715 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FASM, basically a competitor to NASM < 1252533723 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although written in itself instead of C < 1252533724 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1252533747 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: I hear the Pre's implementation of multitasking is quite good, at least. I dunno, the N900 just doesn't feel very interesting to me. < 1252533751 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: I know what FASM is. < 1252533756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Real men use yasm! < 1252533764 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YASM is nice too < 1252533765 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it is pretty thick and otherwise big too, yes; 111 x 60 x 18 mm. On the other hand, I've been carrying the 130 x 70 x 20 mm N-gage around for years now, and it doesn't feel that big any more. < 1252533784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though really real men use an assembler written in Scheme. < 1252533792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Isn't the N-Gage super-heavy? < 1252533793 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Bash ;-) < 1252533795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, crap? :P < 1252533798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: No. < 1252533803 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bash does not have awesome macros. :| < 1252533820 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant omimplay / shasm is an assembler written in Bash ;-) < 1252533834 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yes, it's completely horrible. Especially since there's a whole heap of "whoops, we made your phone reboot" bugs in the firmware, which they never bothered to fix. < 1252533838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, but a Scheme assembler would expose the operations as Scheme macros. < 1252533842 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Anyway, it came with a toy helicopter. < 1252533844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thus allowing Fun Fun Magic Trickery. < 1252533850 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hopefully your N-Gage is one of the later models without the battery replacement annoyance and sidetalking < 1252533854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oh. That's all right, then. < 1252533860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*alright, maybe. < 1252533869 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: I would have said "N-Gage QD" if it were. No, it is not. < 1252533899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, if you want something FREE AS IN RICHARD STALLMAN, try an OpenMoko phone! You can even run Android on them. Downside: they suck. Also no 3G. I don't think they have EDGE either. < 1252533899 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION couldn't remember the QD part, was thinking SD or something ... < 1252533926 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sings "Jive Talkin'" with "Side" replacing the "Jive" ;-) < 1252533946 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, that's a bit too open. I'm just having trouble resisting a phone that's basically running Debian. < 1252533957 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least the N-Gage had some good games, right?? < 1252533957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: OpenMoko is basically Debian, too :P < 1252533963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Not really, no :P < 1252533967 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but there's the hardware problem. < 1252533980 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: I wouldn't know, it came with a "Tony Hawk's" skater game, which I sold. < 1252533996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tony Hawk skateboarding games are uncannily addictive. < 1252534018 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt the N-gage version would've been very good. < 1252534032 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet it was okay < 1252534042 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, my iBook also came with a Tony Hawk game, which didn't work. < 1252534046 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :N-Gage wasn't quite that bad, albeit imperfect, from what I read < 1252534048 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That was pretty strange. < 1252534049 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Oh, forget the N900 < 1252534053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: It uses a resistive touchscreen < 1252534090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Either you really *really* love styluses, really *really* love having your touches dropped, or don't want a resistive touchscreen. < 1252534137 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm not sure I'm so touchy-feely person, and in fact I do have a strange fascination for styluses (styli?). Still, it's a bit of a shame; they did put a capacitive screen into that N97 Symbian phone, I think. < 1252534163 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after using an iphone i could never use a resistive touchscreen < 1252534176 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: btw, I'm pretty sure Maemo is designed for touchiness < 1252534236 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm still going to have to find one to improperly touch all around, to see what it's like. < 1252534243 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get the huge appeal of touch screens, I mean, it's nice but not that crucial, seems more gimmicky than anything < 1252534270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way < 1252534287 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :touch screens are good for some things, bad for others < 1252534288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the UI experience, so to speak, is way different with a touchscreen < 1252534300 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't want to program for a long length of time on one < 1252534306 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't use a phone that doesn't have a touchscreen < 1252534309 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :web browsing, OTOH, might work quite well < 1252534310 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1252534318 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hello 2006 < 1252534325 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, 99% of the phones in the universe never had touch screen capability < 1252534328 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did see someone today doing the iPhone multi-touch map zoom thing, which has always made me smile. < 1252534331 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I don't have a phone at all < 1252534340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: so you delight in pointing out all the time. < 1252534354 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello 2006? heh < 1252534362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different people here live in different years < 1252534366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the iphone came out in 2007 w/ touchscreen web browsing < 1252534367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird lives about 10 years ahead of everyone else < 1252534367 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg, itz from teh 2006 !#! < 1252534370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes, hello 2006 < 1252534380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: no, i live in 2009 < 1252534393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from the perspective of someone who lives in <<2009, that's probably true < 1252534401 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which will be obsolete in four months :-> < 1252534423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that comment was excitingly context free. < 1252534429 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2009 < 1252534568 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I assume you only use Befunge109 then? :-P < 1252534576 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION likes good ol' classic 93 < 1252534580 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :befunge109 isn't really finished yet < 1252534586 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you'd better get a move on, before it becomes Befunge110 < 1252534613 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But then someone may misinterpret it as binary < 1252534629 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I had a big red button that I could press to make the air simultaneously slap every single person currently using a strawman argument in the face < 1252534636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would put a heavy book on top of it. < 1252534651 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :books? how 1890s :-P < 1252534665 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just place your computer on it and be happy < 1252534667 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: are you feeling pain? 'cuz I'm pressing it < 1252534669 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get a Kindle 2, omg, plz, kthxbai < 1252534671 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: you can't weight things down with computer programs < 1252534677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Press, press, press. < 1252534685 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you can ... Fortran punch cards :-) < 1252534689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and aren't Kindles capable of deleting the stuff you're reading remotely/ < 1252534694 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1252534695 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's one fucking heavy punch card. < 1252534696 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was joking < 1252534702 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plural < 1252534702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, the Kindle is ridiculously DRMed < 1252534704 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"cards" < 1252534706 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, they did delete (and refund) over 1984, heh < 1252534712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the basic idea is great, however < 1252534715 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_1984_, of all books ... < 1252534737 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I tend to avoid hardware if the software in it can't easily be replaced and isn't near-perfect < 1252534758 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I'm pretty sure you can reflash the Kindle. < 1252534759 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to the risk of being obsoleted pretty quckly < 1252534765 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :near-perfect? uh, nothing is perfect (Win7 has SMB 2.0 flaw, BSOD lives!!) < 1252534771 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I mean, it gets software updates. < 1252534781 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: I'd have been pretty surprised if Win7 had been perfect < 1252534792 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I think somebody got a minimal Ubuntu to run on the Kindle < 1252534794 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: hmm... is it hardware-locked to only allow signed updates? < 1252534795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: except anyone can crash a win 7 machine with an open port < 1252534801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to a bug in the TCP/IP stack < 1252534805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, no idea. < 1252534806 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ok, now that's impressive < 1252534809 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any open port? < 1252534812 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :buy a Sony ebook reader or something, they can't do that shit < 1252534813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: not sure < 1252534817 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and does that apply to the server version too? < 1252534822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno. < 1252534833 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it works on port 80, then Microsoft will be in a load of trouble < 1252534842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I Read It On The Internet, So It Must Be True < 1252534846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IRIOTISIMBT. < 1252534852 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're too busy "training" Best Buy employees :-) < 1252534855 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I riot sim BT. < 1252534865 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's such fun raiding the British Telecom offices in virtual reality? < 1252534872 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: did you see that Reddit story about Apple pulling a C64 emulator app because you could write BASIC programs into it? < 1252534879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... *iSim < 1252534880 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION saw it < 1252534888 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes. < 1252534890 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iRiot, iSim, BT < 1252534894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a shit policy, the app store is managed shit < 1252534898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: however < 1252534900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is in the ToS < 1252534904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the devs were rejected for it before < 1252534907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just "hid" it very faintly < 1252534907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1252534913 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they shouldn't be surprised < 1252534919 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still lame, though < 1252534969 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the policy is lame, removing it for violating the policy isn't < 1252534979 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from my point of view, a device that deliberately tries not to be TC (from a user-input point of view) is rather limited < 1252534993 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TC? < 1252534996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing complete < 1252534997 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turing-complete < 1252535000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you're on crack. < 1252535007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you not use ATMs? < 1252535008 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :come to think of it, what's to stop people just writing long javascript: URLs into Safari < 1252535010 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1252535014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing < 1252535015 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I do, but I consider them rather limited < 1252535019 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather limited != unusable < 1252535028 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it reduces the amount of money I'm willing to spend on something < 1252535028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet other apps which offer unrestricted net access, < 1252535035 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are rated 17 < 1252535039 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's bullshit < 1252535039 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :17? < 1252535066 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :age limit, rating thing < 1252535096 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the Kindle is incidentally TC < 1252535100 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know someone asked the Enigma devs if they were planning to put it on the iPhone < 1252535102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it has a web browser which does javascript < 1252535107 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can use it as an ssh client, for instance < 1252535114 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they launched into a rant against Apple and the app store policies < 1252535124 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how they thought it was illegal to put anything open-source in the app store < 1252535130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's very debatable. < 1252535135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, under a GPL-style copyleft < 1252535135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the FSF think so, but it's probably not. < 1252535138 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not BSD stuff < 1252535149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, with an uber-strict literal reading, yes, it's illegal < 1252535153 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the argument is, that you can't license apple to make binary copies that don't also send source < 1252535166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously you can embed the source code inside the app :) < 1252535171 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: actually, no < 1252535174 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Apple's terms ban that < 1252535177 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1252535181 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would Apple ban a Befunge interpreter? < 1252535183 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: yes < 1252535186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: probably. < 1252535189 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wait, you aren't allowed to upload anything which could be used in a TC way to the App store? < 1252535194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: well, no < 1252535199 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't know that < 1252535201 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really? hard to imagine Befunge (-93, at least) of causing any problems < 1252535210 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but programming, yes < 1252535215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: nor C64 BASIC < 1252535220 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :someone on reddit claimed that their lambda-calculus-based game was banned, although I'm not sure whether to believe them < 1252535235 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so why the heck is Apple so popular then? < 1252535242 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :won't this come back to bite them eventually? < 1252535247 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: yes, it will < 1252535247 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: well, you'd think so < 1252535249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but < 1252535252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the iPhone's UI is really, really great < 1252535260 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's simply the smoothest phone for doing shit with < 1252535269 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except TC shit ;-) < 1252535277 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and... most people value that above being able to type BASIC programs on a touchscreen keyboard. < 1252535279 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I agree, the UI is relatively impressive < 1252535304 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :call 911, we need iBefunge, stat! ;-) < 1252535305 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to find myself getting bored of UIs after a few minutes, though < 1252535307 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I take it there's no way to install a program locally < 1252535313 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, well, you have to go via App store? < 1252535322 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can do it if you have a developer SDK thingy. < 1252535329 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which costs tonnes? < 1252535329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But that costs $$$. < 1252535332 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :._. < 1252535333 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the SDK is free < 1252535336 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Putting it on your phone isn't < 1252535340 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's something like... < 1252535341 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about jailbreaking it? < 1252535343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I forget the figure. < 1252535345 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Double-digit bucks < 1252535349 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FireFly: technically illegal. < 1252535354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: bored, maybe < 1252535360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :funnily enough, a UI is meant to be functional, not exciting < 1252535366 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alrighty < 1252535368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you notice it, it's bad < 1252535372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: agreed < 1252535379 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll stick to my current phone anyway.. I can call with it, so I'm happy < 1252535388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :phone is a misnomer < 1252535400 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the actual telephone-mast calling is basically irrelevant nowadays < 1252535405 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really, though, what would I do with an iPhone-like device? < 1252535407 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite true < 1252535411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but "mobile thingy device" isn't a very good term < 1252535417 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I'm one of those crazy people who bought a first-generation iPhone back in 2007 when they cost £72,564 and 81p. Back then they didn't even have apps, you were just meant to use web apps in Safari. < 1252535424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I jailbreaked it. < 1252535429 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Back then you could jailbreak it just by opening a web page in Safari. < 1252535445 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: did you leave it jailbroken through upgrades/ < 1252535447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd hang there for about 15 seconds, show a blue progress bar, reboot and bam! You're jailbroken and have an app installer. < 1252535450 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: you can't < 1252535454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought so < 1252535459 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so did you upgrade and rebreak it? < 1252535463 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the App Store came out I didn't bother to rebreak it < 1252535464 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just leave it as-is? < 1252535468 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :out of laziness < 1252535482 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, laziness ... the bane of progress < 1252535494 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should really start programming for the DS some day < 1252535496 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Jailbreaking my mobile doesn't really advance the world. < 1252535522 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, it's a very good alarm clock and portable web browser. Not so much an IRC/IM client, but I haven't really practiced with that touchscreen keyboard much. < 1252535556 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't buy it today, but only because of the app store hoohah. < 1252535590 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alarm clocks can be obtained more cheaply < 1252535596 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm horrified at the thought of portable web browsing < 1252535596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No shit. < 1252535604 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You might just be a luddite. < 1252535609 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being on call constantly is bad enough < 1252535613 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but being online constantly? < 1252535619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Um, web browsing is self-initiated. < 1252535622 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't even have an internet connection at my own home < 1252535637 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're probably a luddite. < 1252535645 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I can just imagine a future where employers insit that everyone has an iphone set to IRC at all the time, or something like that < 1252535645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the internet is an extension of my mind. < 1252535650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Being able to call up Wikipedia at any time is invaluable. < 1252535663 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I can see that < 1252535667 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you also oppose strong AI? < 1252535680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, Terminator could come true and we'd be plunged into a horrible war with the machines, am I right? < 1252535688 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia is great ... esp. for John Siegenthaler :-)) < 1252535718 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I think strong AI is unlikely within my lifetime < 1252535723 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ouch < 1252535732 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from what I've seen of humankind, it's too fundamentally incompetent to want to develop anything like that < 1252535733 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Starting 08:10 tomorrow < 1252535745 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that is not an answer to my question. < 1252535750 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"I'm sorry, Dave, but I can't let you do that." < 1252535765 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I tend not to think too much about things of low probability < 1252535774 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's nice. I asked a question of you. < 1252535778 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I rarely have opinions at all unless I actually think about a topic deeply < 1252535790 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so my answer is, atm I have no opinion, and I don't really want to spend time formulating one < 1252535854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about a use-case I mentioned, looking up information as an extension of my own memory? I suppose that's bad because I'll become stupid and drooling and have to look up every word on Wikipedia to find out what it means, hurr. < 1252535862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(re: opposing portable internet) < 1252535942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: no, not really < 1252535954 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1252535966 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, I find I can hardly think when onlilne < 1252535968 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*online < 1252535974 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can scheme with people when online, e.g. for mafia or nomic < 1252535983 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I hardly ever do productive work when I have an internet connection < 1252536011 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may have a self-control problem < 1252536024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(You may be a bear. You may have wings. There are *so* *many* things you may.) < 1252536029 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, when I'm connected to the internet, it's for the purpose of using it < 1252536107 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess I'm likely the only person here young enough to have "grown up" with the internet. < 1252536117 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1252536121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't even articulate what "using" the internet is. It's not a directed action I make. < 1252536139 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: if you use the Internet as an extention of your own memory, then by analogy, I can remotely control your mind < 1252536151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not if someone reverts you. < 1252536161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on my timing < 1252536186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if your memory doesn't correlate with other ones I'm unlikely to believe it. < 1252536197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, that's the same ol' "lol but anyone can put 'ur a fag' on wikipedia" argument. < 1252536223 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they often do < 1252536234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I wasn't assuming you'd only be trusting Wikipedia < 1252536248 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. My list of people who are fags is at least 11.47% longer than the average person's. < 1252536268 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: basically, you're saying that you're going to get every site on the internet about a given topic to add your lie into them < 1252536279 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and have this lie correlate with everything else I know < 1252536285 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you do that, I commend your initiative < 1252536285 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: depends on how rare the topic is < 1252536295 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in particular, I'm thinking about the situation where mine's the only site with some datum you might want to know < 1252536324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I might flunk a job interview because I got the wrong C-INTERCAL version number. Oh, the embarrassment. < 1252536344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, if you're the only person who knows you could just lie to me IRL too. < 1252536352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The internet doesn't really change that dynamic at all. < 1252536364 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except I'm less likely to trust people on the internet at face value.) < 1252536456 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about when the Internet crashes? < 1252536470 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm worried that it'll cause the end of civilisation, nowadays, we're just too dependent on it < 1252536471 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, befunge-mode.el is very slow (probably due to cursor movement over current instruction being executed) < 1252536479 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm not convinced it's entirely impossible < 1252536490 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to what? dependence on oil? that didn't kill us (yet) < 1252536495 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: electricity is evil < 1252536500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever been in a power cut? < 1252536507 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we must immediately stop using electricity, lest it ever go out < 1252536509 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes < 1252536515 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't you agree? < 1252536528 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :candles ftw! ;-) < 1252536542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: it's normally easier to restore, taking out the entire electricity network all over the world would be rather difficult < 1252536559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same with the internet; it could be better, sure, and so we can make it better. < 1252536567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But yes, sure, I fully expect that an internet coverage outage will be as severe as an electricity outage in the future. < 1252536603 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only if this "cloud" crap takes off < 1252536647 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1252536657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cloud coverage seems like a bad idea < 1252536686 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and BTW, dunno how old you are (I forget, but I know everyone here is youngish), but the Internet predates us all ... DARPA/ARPANET, 1974 or such ... < 1252536689 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and while it's a loathsome buzzword, I don't see any problem in storing *some things* on third-party servers, hopefully encrypted and with backups, to access them anywhere < 1252536701 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: I know that. (I'm 14.) < 1252536710 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, we already do some (webmail, pics) < 1252536712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it only really took off in the mid 90s. < 1252536714 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And exactly. < 1252536725 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oy, 14 is a bit young < 1252536738 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. I could have my mind corrupted by the negative influences of this channel. < 1252536752 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :third-party servers is fine < 1252536761 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's storing data everywhere that's the problem < 1252536765 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is how I think the cloud worked < 1252536774 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er, no < 1252536777 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was enjoying his 486 Sx/25 w/ 4 MB of RAM and 170 MB HD running MS-DOS 6.00 and Win 3.1 and King's Quest 6 when he was 14 < 1252536780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the cloud is just a buzzword for things like gmail, google docs, ... < 1252536790 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and 2400 bps for BBSes (soon upgraded, heh) < 1252536794 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a healthy tip to remember is that buzzwords never mean anything new < 1252536805 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hard to imagine 2400bps was ever acceptable for anything < 1252536811 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although same for 486s :-P < 1252536824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: I started on Windows 3.1 when I was 3, despite 95 coming out when I was born. < 1252536841 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now *that* probably corrupted (or scarred) you ;-) < 1252536857 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Mommy, why is Bill Gates such a horrible programmer?" < 1252536879 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Oh, I already knew that, because I have a distinct memory of removing everything in C:\WINDOWS. < 1252536889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't need this crap on my system! Oh, look, it crashed again. < 1252536921 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I swear, it must've been low memory, if we'd had more RAM, we never would've accepted Win 3.x for anything, ever < 1252536946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Windows 3.x isn't old! Stupid people dropping compatibOHWAIT:P < 1252536967 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say compatibility should be killed, but Win 3.x was definitely weak < 1252537012 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOS is more popular (esp. since Win3x used undocumented tricks, still doesn't really run on FreeDOS although not enough developers miss it, I guess) < 1252537031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOS was pretty bad < 1252537038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :architecturally < 1252537046 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1252537052 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could've been better, could've been worse < 1252537058 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it was very lean and mean < 1252537060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :programs could shit on each other and it had no proper multitasking < 1252537063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm gonna go with "bad architecture" < 1252537073 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"shit on each other" only applies to real mode < 1252537082 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DR-DOS had multitasking, Desqview also existed, etc. etc. < 1252537084 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I'm pretty sure 386BSD and the like could run on the things DOS could < 1252537094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not like a better architecture was impossible due to hardware constraints < 1252537095 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(one advantage of Win 3.0: multitasking DOS) < 1252537099 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows 3.0 went completely broken when I DBLSPACE'd my system disk. < 1252537108 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.0? Windows 386 could do that! < 1252537121 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: does that... double space text? < 1252537125 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Admittedly there was a warning about it somewhere, I just had missed it. < 1252537125 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: 386 was a win 3.1 feature < 1252537133 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a on-the-fly disk compression thing. < 1252537135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: naw < 1252537135 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, DOS originally ran on an 8088, 386BSD didn't exist (and needed 386+, duh) < 1252537141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the computer in the video is clearly running windows 2 < 1252537141 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DoubleSpace/DriveSpace. < 1252537148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it had overlapping windows, but the old look < 1252537153 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Win 2.1/386 existed (supposedly, never tried it) < 1252537174 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Windows 3.0 at least does have a "386 Enhanced" mode. < 1252537185 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: still, you could clearly fit a unix-alike on there < 1252537199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BSD isn't exactly the leanest unix imaginable, and the 386 wasn't like five billion times more powerful < 1252537221 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you probably couldn't do everything the demoscene did with one, though < 1252537228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the overhead and protection < 1252537291 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can run ELKS on a 8088. < 1252537370 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :barely < 1252537379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's amusing how the latest top of the line x86 supercomputing system of today still, when you turn it on, tells the keyboard to free up its port < 1252537383 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, Linux originally ran on a 386 w/ 2 MB < 1252537388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :over PS/2 < 1252537389 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: The main problem with DOS is that it made no sense on a machine more powerful than, say, an 8080. < 1252537395 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nowadays you'd be lucky to run one with 32 MB < 1252537414 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :have you read the linux 0.1 source? < 1252537415 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: ... Fail. < 1252537416 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it barely does anything < 1252537427 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, it made plenty sense, but Intel chips (286 pmode anyone?) weren't exactly DOS friendly < 1252537428 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you're full of shit, Rugxulo :P < 1252537431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :busybox < 1252537436 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOS is more a hardware-communications library than an OS < 1252537436 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :busybox systems run in kilobytes of ram < 1252537439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :single-digit < 1252537439 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can rather easily get you Linux on a 386 w/ 2MB. < 1252537443 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on linux < 1252537447 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Busybox and Linux, and voila. < 1252537450 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux 2.6? no way < 1252537453 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux 2.4? doubt it < 1252537456 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.2? maybe < 1252537461 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That may well include the RAMdisk. < 1252537462 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: you can strip down the kernel < 1252537465 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :during compile < 1252537479 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen a lot of minimal Linuxes, and none are as minimal as DOS < 1252537505 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, just for completeness, somebody did fix up Linux 0.1 to work with modern GCC, and he backported Bash 3.2, VIM 7, I think :-) < 1252537521 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yeah. DOS is not even an OS, it's a couple of additional interrupt handlers and a bootloader that can be returned to. < 1252537526 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would you even DO with only 2 MB of RAM with Linux?? < 1252537534 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: run binaries < 1252537534 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nethack? < 1252537536 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe with lots of (slow) swap space < 1252537548 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nethack, maybe, not sure how much RAM it needs though < 1252537554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not much. < 1252537554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, no < 1252537558 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(won't easily fit on a floppy, I think) < 1252537570 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well < 1252537573 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can run a linux 2.6 + busybox system with 1KB