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01:29:26 <augur> omg i have internet! :o
01:30:23 <ehird> omg.
01:44:00 <puzzlet> someone's got the internet
01:44:13 <puzzlet> i see.
01:45:11 <ehird> it's augur!
01:45:19 <augur> :o
01:53:27 <Slereah_> augur!
01:53:31 <Slereah_> Make love to me!
01:53:32 <augur> Slereah_!
01:53:33 <augur> no.
01:53:35 <Slereah_> :(
02:07:15 <ehird> ouch
02:08:25 <puzzlet> epic lovestory
02:08:38 <ehird> totally
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02:25:20 <ehird> hi sir gay, oh
02:25:37 <Sgeo> >.>
02:26:05 * Sgeo is not used to random insults from ehird. Insults, yes, but usually related to me doing or asking something dumb
02:26:19 <ehird> you fail at pronunciation puns
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02:26:36 <Sgeo> It's a punsult
02:27:04 <ehird> Punsult. Really now. You have sunken to a new low. :P
02:27:09 <ehird> *sunk, maybe.
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02:58:16 <Sgeo> I have a horrible singing voice
02:58:32 <Sgeo> Maybe I shouldn't try to sound androgenous, that might help
03:00:04 <Sgeo> Also, my screaming probably isn't helping. I'll omit it
03:02:53 <Sgeo> No, vixy, YouTube is not, in fact, down
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03:14:34 <Sgeo> BRB
03:22:31 <ehird> [02:58]<Sgeo>I have a horrible singing voice
03:22:33 <ehird> [02:58]<Sgeo>Maybe I shouldn't try to sound androgenous, that might help
03:22:35 <ehird> [03:00]<Sgeo>Also, my screaming probably isn't helping. I'll omit it
03:22:36 <ehird> l o l w u t
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03:23:47 <Sgeo_> Anyone want to hear my horrible singing voice?
03:23:59 <ehird> NOT IF IT INVOLVED SCREAMING AT ANY POINT IN THE PROCESS.
03:24:20 <Sgeo_> Your screaming at my singing, or my singing? I don't scream in this
03:25:01 <ehird> Only because you omitted it. I AM NOT A FAN OF THINGS WITH SCREAMING EVEN IF THE ACTUAL SCREAMING HAS BEEN OMITTED.
03:25:55 <Sgeo_> The screaming was artificially added. If you can tolerate Paint it Black, you can tolerate this, unless you can't tolerate bad singers
03:27:07 <ehird> THAT IS EVEN WORSE.
03:27:17 <ehird> I don't even want to know what you were doing or what your goal is but I cam convinced that it is almost certainly the work of a particularly insane Satan and want no part in it. ESPECIALLY IF YOU OMITTED SCREAMING AND THEN ADDED IT ARTIFICIALLY.
03:27:32 <Sgeo_> Other way around
03:27:35 <ehird> *am convinced
03:29:57 <ehird> Sgeo_: you removed the artificial screaming and added real ones?
03:30:04 <ehird> WHY MUST YOU CONTINUALLY MAKE IT WORSE AND WORSE
03:30:40 <Sgeo_> The screaming wasn't a part of the song that this was based on. The new lyrics calls for anguished cries. I did that, but then cut that part out when I tried recording it again
03:30:58 <ehird> THIS SOUNDS INCOMPREHENSIBLY AWFUL
03:31:03 <ehird> CTHULHU HAS NOTHING ON THIS
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04:15:17 <ehird> class frok
04:15:19 <ehird> {
04:15:20 <ehird> --Cygwin, fork.cc
04:17:00 <ehird> Cygwin's fork does the obvious, which is "create new process of me, munge a setjmp thingy into it, make it longjmp to here".
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08:00:35 <oerjan> <ehird> Punsult. Really now. You have sunken to a new low. :P
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08:01:00 <oerjan> it's ok, he just needs some coaching by a professional punsultant.
08:05:33 <Sgeo_> I'd laugh, but I'm 3/4ths asleep
08:06:01 <Sgeo_> G'night
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09:06:44 <ehird> Windows 7 is... upsettingly good...
09:07:35 <ehird> I'm actually upset that it's good, that wasn't an exaggeration.
09:08:38 <ehird> At least I can't get audio to work. Otherwise I might die of ... upsettedness.
09:08:52 <ehird> WHICH IS TOTALLY A REAL CONDITION
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17:01:32 <oerjan> well, a couple of them anyhow
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19:41:46 <impomatic> Hi :-)
19:42:41 <oerjan> 'lo
19:45:17 <fizzie> Medium.
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19:55:15 <Ilari> Any "design by comittee" esolangs. Preferably comitee with 8 or >20 members... :-)
19:55:53 <oerjan> Magenta
19:55:57 <Sgeo> Reminds me of ABCDEF
19:56:10 <oerjan> we never finished that one
19:57:08 <oerjan> i wonder if funge98 qualifies
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19:57:40 <pikhq> There is such a thing as good design by commitee.
19:57:56 <pikhq> (see: Haskell)
19:58:54 <oerjan> haskell is only an honorary esolang though
19:58:55 <Ilari> That's why I said that preferably 8 or >20 members...
19:59:02 <Deewiant> Funge98 should qualify
19:59:18 <Deewiant> Although maybe not quite >20 :-P
20:00:15 <pikhq> oerjan: I didn't cite it as an example of esolang design by comittee.
20:00:43 <oerjan> i know.
20:01:04 <pikhq> Alright.
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20:01:47 <Deewiant> I'm amused by how three different people used the word "committee" but none spelled it correctly
20:02:02 <Deewiant> And each spelled it differently
20:02:25 <pikhq> Deewiant: I spelt it differently each time I used it, too.
20:02:54 <Deewiant> Darn, I read your latter statement as being by oerjan
20:02:55 * oerjan checks and notes he didn't actually use the word
20:04:27 <Deewiant> Well, it wasn't that amusing then
20:04:51 <Deewiant> Since it was only two people after all
20:06:09 <Ilari> Hmm... Are there trinary 2-operand universal logic operators (like binary has NAND and NOR)?
20:07:23 <impomatic> Don't NAND and NOR also work with 3-operands?
20:07:30 <Deewiant> He said 2-operandd
20:07:35 <coppro> there's BUT
20:07:37 <Deewiant> But for trinary, not binary numbers
20:08:31 <impomatic> What's the definition of BUT?
20:08:42 <coppro> impomatic: look at ais523's C-INTERCAL docs
20:10:50 * oerjan wonders if malbolge's crazy operation is universal
20:11:07 <fizzie> "Design by commitee" means an anarchistic system where each version-control commit has completely independent ideas about design.
20:12:02 <coppro> nice try, but that is hardly right - that's open-source
20:12:23 <coppro> design by committee is like that, except commits have to be voted in
20:13:21 <oerjan> 012/012: 100 102 221
20:13:30 <impomatic> ANS'94 Forth was designed by Committee and it concentrated on all the wrong things.
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20:19:02 <oerjan> oh, you cannot get 2 without starting with it
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20:20:48 <Ilari> 3-element permutation group has no generators. It has 1 element of order 1, 3 elements of order 2 and 2 elements of order 3.
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20:21:53 <oerjan> is that supposed to be relevant to the operand question?
20:22:03 <Ilari> Thus, there is no 1-input operand which is universal for 1-input trinary expressions (binary has NOT).
20:22:21 <oerjan> mhm
20:23:09 <oerjan> er no NOT isn't
20:23:11 <Ilari> Hmm... Is maximum together with universal 1-input manipulation universal in trinary logic...
20:23:21 <oerjan> you are forgetting the constant functions
20:25:22 <oerjan> you can construct if-then-else with it
20:26:54 <Ilari> Hmm... INV(MAX(INV(A), INV(B)) = MIN(A, B).
20:27:30 <oerjan> if x=const then y else z  is max(min(y, if x=const then 2 else 0), min(z, if x=const then 0 else 2))
20:27:35 <oerjan> i think
20:27:50 <oerjan> (the inner if's are just 1-input functions)
20:29:21 <oerjan> and given if-then-else you can branch arbitrarily on the value of a variable
20:30:52 <Ilari> And with minimum, one needs only to be able to construct arbitiary logic function with one nonzero. And such can be constructed by manipulating inputs to be of wanted value only at that point (zero elsewhere), passing through MAX.
20:31:23 <Ilari> Thus, universal 1-input manipulation and MAX is universal set.
20:31:24 * oerjan thought that was what he just did
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20:32:16 <ehird> 11:41:46 <impomatic> Hi :-)
20:32:32 <ehird> i had a dream involving you, also other #esotericers but they were just j random #esotericer
20:32:57 <oerjan> i'm an anagram of j random.  almost.
20:33:19 <ehird> almost anagrams are the best type of anagram
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20:33:57 <Deewiant> Actually the worst
20:34:01 <ehird> I wonder if I should try mIRC + one of those things that retheme the IRC window text
20:34:06 <ehird> maybe they can make it behave more normally
20:34:11 <ehird> i.e., not fucked up copy/paste behaviour
20:34:22 <oerjan> it's like with puns, worst = best
20:35:04 <ehird> also, windows 7 really is quite wonderful.
20:35:16 <ehird> I may have a fever
20:35:18 <ehird> :P
20:36:02 <ehird> 12:11:07 <fizzie> "Design by commitee" means an anarchistic system where each version-control commit has completely independent ideas about design.
20:36:03 <oerjan> it's just a small nanobot infestation in your brain.  resistance is futile.
20:36:04 <ehird> 12:12:02 <coppro> nice try, but that is hardly right - that's open-source
20:36:05 <ehird> ++
20:36:31 <ehird> the best open software is either made by an individual or three, or a tightly-focused group with the same goals
20:37:06 <ehird> linux is an edge-case, it's basically the latter (everyone with commit access), just they steal all their commits
20:37:15 <ehird> also, linux has so many modules that it's basically a bunch of seperate software
20:37:28 <ehird> *separate
20:39:15 <ehird> hmm... I wonder why Windows 7 still makes the default user an administrator...
20:39:16 <ehird> that's irritating
20:39:21 <ehird> though I guess UAC mitigates it
20:42:15 <impomatic> ehird: was I in your dream?
20:44:25 <ehird> well, i don't remember seeing any people per se, but metaphysically, i think so
20:44:31 <ehird> it's not as if it made any sense or anything
20:46:05 <ehird> hmm, IE 8 expands tabs in the taskbar switcher thing as if they were windows ... i miss that in chrome
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20:58:00 <ehird> It is proved that for the Dual-Pivot Quicksort the average number of comparisons is 2*n*ln(n), the average number of swaps is 0.8*n*ln(n), whereas classical Quicksort algorithm has 2*n*ln(n) and 1*n*ln(n) respectively.
20:58:03 <ehird> http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.java.openjdk.core-libs.devel/2628
21:06:09 <ehird> hmm
21:06:20 <ehird> I wonder if I could make some changes to cygwin's fork.cc to port it to MinGW
21:06:35 <ehird> does anyone know if MinGW implements the bits of POSIX that matters apart from fork()? like, does it do mmap()?
21:07:52 <Deewiant> MinGW isn't a POSIX platform, it's essentially just GCC for Windows
21:08:52 <ehird> Deewiant: ah, so it just uses the libc stuff that windows has?
21:08:58 <Deewiant> Yes
21:09:05 <Deewiant> Meaning that it doesn't support C99, for instance.
21:09:06 <ehird> I'm fairly sure that includes a good portion of POSIX though, no?
21:09:17 <Deewiant> Some part of it, I guess.
21:09:21 <Deewiant> mmap(), no.
21:09:24 <ehird> D'aww.
21:10:09 <ehird> It'd be nice to have a cygwin-like thing without all the underlying baggage...
21:10:44 <Deewiant> Like what baggage?
21:11:16 <ehird> The fact that it has its own process table. The fact that it has its own filesystem layer. I could go on.
21:11:51 <Deewiant> You can just build an app against the cygwin headers and use that without the baggage
21:12:13 <ehird> Um, what? That won't actually, you know, link.
21:12:24 <ehird> Because the functions use those elements of baggage, see.
21:12:31 <ehird> So you can't call them if you don't want the bagage.
21:12:51 <Deewiant> Well sure, the baggage is there, but you can't see it unless you know to look
21:13:22 <Deewiant> Of course you need to link it to the cygwin stuff as well
21:13:26 <ehird> Congratulations, your solution to the baggage, which adds dependencies, is unneeded, hinders nativeness and slows down the Cygwin system (it's dog slow) is... don't look at it!
21:13:29 <Deewiant> You can't implement fork() in only a .h :-P
21:13:38 <Deewiant> Or I guess you could but anyway
21:13:52 <ehird> You can implement fork() without your own process table, filesystem layer, ...
21:14:40 <Deewiant> My point is that sure, it'd be nice to have a system without it, but I don't think it's that bad
21:14:43 <ehird> Hmm, it's 9/11
21:14:48 <ehird> That'd explain why reddit is all, you know
21:14:48 <ehird> 9/11
21:14:49 <Deewiant> fork() is dog slow on Windows by default
21:15:04 <Ilari> Does Windows even support it natively?
21:15:08 <ehird> No, but you can implement it
21:15:09 <Deewiant> No, and that is why.
21:15:24 <ehird> Cygwin's fork() isn't copy-on-write; I don't think that's neccessary.
21:15:43 <Deewiant> It might help for speed
21:15:53 <Deewiant> But not much
21:15:53 <ehird> I mean, I don't think it's neccessary to have no copy on write on Windows
21:16:03 <Deewiant> Ah
21:16:04 <ehird> Also, it's definitely important for speed
21:16:09 <ehird> fork() being expensive kills unix
21:16:13 <Deewiant> Yes, it's important
21:16:18 <Deewiant> I said it probably wouldn't help much
21:16:32 <Deewiant> Spawning processes on Windows is expensive whether you do some fork() stuff on top or not
21:16:35 <ehird> Maybe you could do fork() with a thread and some asm hackery.
21:16:43 <Deewiant> Cheapening the fork() stuff won't help much, probably
21:16:49 <ehird> sure it will
21:16:58 <ehird> Cygwin gets disturbingly slow on long shell scripts
21:17:00 <ehird> because fork() is so shit
21:17:06 <Deewiant> No, because Windows is shit
21:17:10 <Deewiant> Spawning processes takes time
21:17:17 <ehird> Meh
21:17:43 <ehird> Someone make an LD_PRELOAD type thingy that replaces the process spawning stuff with something fast :-P
21:18:03 <Deewiant> If currently we have 0.1s to spawn a process + 0.1s to copy the memory image of another, turning the latter into 0.01s means it's still dog slow
21:18:41 <ehird> Thank god it isn't 0.1s :P
21:18:50 <Deewiant> It feels like it is
21:18:51 <ehird> Well, I hope not at least
21:19:14 <ehird> The final AACS License agreements also include provisions to phase out the use of analog output in Blu-ray players.  It says that all Blu-ray players manufactured after December 31, 2010 must limit the analog output to SD resolution.  After December 31, 2013, no device that can decrypt AACS content can have any analog outputs.  The intent of this is to limit casual piracy and has no effect on how you author your Blu-ray discs.
21:19:33 <ehird> Blu-ray sure is doing well innit
21:23:19 <Sgeo> Unless by analog they mean "can be seen by humans and cameras", I don't quite understand the point
21:26:17 <ehird> Because the digital output has DRM.
21:26:25 <ehird> and using a camcorder results in very bad quality
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21:37:03 <AnMaster> ehird, oh that thinkpad was a T46p.
21:37:07 <AnMaster> night
21:37:16 <ehird> 14 hours?
21:37:24 <ehird> Impressive. Well, I don't need to worry about battery.
21:37:30 <pikhq> ehird: You could check out Interix.
21:37:37 <ehird> Even on a p.
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21:37:41 <ehird> That's discrete graphics.
21:37:41 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and it was 12 cell
21:37:49 <ehird> Right.
21:37:49 <AnMaster> ehird, what does the p stand for
21:37:54 <ehird> discrete graphics
21:37:55 <ehird> non-integrated
21:37:57 <Sgeo> Can't anyone just make their own Blu-Ray player that doesn't have those restrictions?
21:37:58 <AnMaster> hm
21:38:00 <AnMaster> ehird, ok
21:38:02 <ehird> Sgeo: That's illegal.
21:38:09 <ehird> also, you'd have to reverse-engineer the DRM
21:38:10 <AnMaster> ehird, that guy owned three thinkpads XD
21:38:17 <AnMaster> ehird, he had another with him today
21:38:17 <Deewiant> Read: yes, they can.
21:38:30 <ehird> Deewiant: for a limited period of time. unless you're in china
21:38:35 <ehird> AnMaster: I wonder why.
21:38:43 <ehird> The T43p not portable enough for using all the time?
21:38:52 <ehird> Guess that 12-cell weighs a lot, or the UltraBay battery.
21:38:53 <Deewiant> Illegal things can be done.
21:39:02 <AnMaster> ehird, oh yeah his forth computer was a netbook
21:39:05 <Deewiant> It might not be wise, but they're no less possible than legal things.
21:39:09 <AnMaster> so three notebooks and one netbook
21:39:17 <AnMaster> oh and a tower at home
21:39:26 <ehird> A netbook is stupid if you already have a notebook with a long battery life.
21:39:38 <AnMaster> ehird, well it is a lot less heavy
21:39:43 <ehird> True.
21:39:49 <ehird> A lightweight notebook, then.
21:39:57 <ehird> The UltraBay battery seems to be 235g.
21:40:01 <AnMaster> ehird, a netbook will probably get more battery time
21:40:09 <ehird> Who needs over 14 hours?
21:40:16 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and is there a T46p too?
21:40:20 <AnMaster> or something like that
21:40:22 <ehird> There's a p for every T.
21:40:32 <AnMaster> I think the one he had today was 46 but not completely sure
21:40:36 <ehird> Well, every recent one.
21:40:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Er, you said T46p before
21:40:52 <AnMaster> err
21:40:55 <AnMaster> well yeah
21:41:02 <AnMaster> ehird, sorry, he had a T42 today
21:41:03 <ehird> There's no T46
21:41:12 <ehird> T60 or T43?
21:41:20 <AnMaster> ehird, T43 then I guess
21:41:26 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:T43p
21:41:27 <AnMaster> I'm bad at remembering numbers
21:41:31 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:T42
21:41:36 <AnMaster> ehird, looks like it
21:41:59 <AnMaster> ehird, and that is the one he had today
21:42:07 <ehird> Which? The T42?
21:42:15 <AnMaster> so... T43p was the long battery one, the T42 the one he had today
21:42:19 <AnMaster> everything clear now?
21:42:28 <ehird> Right.
21:42:43 <ehird> Anyway, I guess I should try and get a Core 2 T60p, stick an UltraBay battery and an SSD in there, and upgrade the RAM to the max.
21:42:57 <ehird> But the T60p looks quite thick: compare:
21:43:09 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/1/1c/ThinkpadT43P.JPG
21:43:12 <ehird> http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/8/8e/ThinkPadT60.jpg
21:43:14 <ehird> Probably just perspective, but eh.
21:43:19 <ehird> At least it has the IBM logo on it.
21:43:27 <ehird> (Also, what is that thing sticking out the side?)
21:43:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I was going to ask you that
21:44:06 <ehird> http://www.trustedreviews.com/images/article/inline/3331-1.jpg It's not in this photo.
21:44:16 <AnMaster> http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/8/8e/ThinkPadT60.jpg <-- very blue compared to the neutral grey in http://www.thinkwiki.org/images/1/1c/ThinkpadT43P.JPG
21:44:19 <AnMaster> I suspect bad photo
21:44:22 <ehird> (And it looks very nice in that photo, although a bit high dpi. I don't think I can read that text.)
21:44:32 <ehird> AnMaster: It's a Lenovo-supplied photo, but true.
21:44:48 <ehird> The 14" T60p is only available in 1400x1050 in the 14" version, it seems.
21:45:09 <ehird> The extra pixels are nice, but using Windows would be a bitch; it hates everything above 96dpi.
21:45:12 <AnMaster> that's a nice resolution
21:45:13 <ehird> Or rather, programs break if you set it higher.
21:45:23 <AnMaster> ehird, I thought you WANTED high dpi?
21:45:35 <ehird> Hell, I do, for Linux, where it'll work swimmingly.
21:45:45 <AnMaster> ehird, you can't get both in one laptop
21:45:50 <ehird> But look at the icons on http://www.trustedreviews.com/images/article/inline/3331-1.jpg
21:45:56 <ehird> Could you read their tet?
21:45:57 <ehird> *text
21:46:15 <AnMaster> hard to tell from the photo size. How large is the screen?
21:46:21 <Deewiant> The top one says "Recycle Bin"
21:46:25 <AnMaster> to get any sort of perspective
21:46:26 <AnMaster> Deewiant, XD
21:46:35 <ehird> 14" diagonal 4:2
21:46:37 <ehird> *4:3
21:46:41 <ehird> Or maybe 14.1".
21:46:48 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't see why not, if I'm sitting in front of it
21:46:54 <AnMaster> compared to a down scaled photo of it
21:47:03 <ehird> But the text is like a mm on screen.
21:47:05 <ehird> Ugh, the T60p is heavy: 2.65kg.
21:47:05 <AnMaster> Deewiant, the one below ways Internet Explorer
21:47:11 <ehird> I guess that graphics card weighs, huh.
21:47:36 <Deewiant> The one after that is "My Network Places"
21:47:47 <ehird> Unfortunately *old* integrated graphics is useless for anything.
21:47:53 <ehird> So I can't really go for a non-p model.
21:48:26 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway 12 cell battery + battery in ultrabay will last a bit for light work. Consider that during idle I can get my R500 down to ~8.5W, (12-13 W if connected to busy wlan, like at uni)
21:48:46 <ehird> I'd likely go for a 6-cell + ultrabay.
21:48:57 <AnMaster> ehird, is 6 cell the standard?
21:48:57 <ehird> 6 cell might get, like, 4 hours less than a 12-cell, AT THE VERY WORST
21:49:02 <AnMaster> if so, that is what I have.
21:49:06 <ehird> so I'll get, like, 10 hours
21:49:12 <Deewiant> I have a default 6-cell on an R60 and it lasts for 2 hours at best
21:49:14 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, it lifts the back up a bit but doesn't poke out
21:49:19 <ehird> Deewiant: Thus the UltraBay battery
21:49:28 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
21:49:36 <ehird> It's 235g of battery in the shape of a CD drive.
21:49:44 <AnMaster> that gives me a bit more than 3.2 hours it seems. But I haven't really tried with a light load all the time, rather very busy, then completely idle (or even suspended) and so on
21:49:45 <Deewiant> But then you lack a CD drive.
21:50:01 <AnMaster> ehird, loading system fully got it up at 27 W btw
21:50:02 <ehird> Deewiant: I don't use CDs apart from to install old stuff I have and boot.
21:50:10 <ehird> In which case I can pop out the battery and pop in the CD drive.
21:50:18 <Deewiant> Meh.
21:50:21 <AnMaster> ehird, that was number crunching + heavy disk activity though
21:50:32 <AnMaster> oh and high load on the gbit ethernet
21:50:33 <ehird> Deewiant: I was originally considering the X200; it has no CD drive at all.
21:50:50 <ehird> AnMaster: I won't get your magically low power usage due to the components being older
21:50:58 <AnMaster> ehird, install over network then?
21:51:06 <ehird> What's that in response to
21:51:18 <AnMaster> <ehird> Deewiant: I was originally considering the X200; it has no CD drive at all.
21:51:34 <Deewiant> ehird: That Ultrabay battery would buy you what, an hour?
21:51:57 <ehird> Deewiant: 14 hours with 12-cell + Ultrabay for the person at AnMaster's uni with a T43p
21:52:13 <Deewiant> Sure, most of that being the 12-cell :-)
21:52:13 <ehird> So 6-cell + Ultrabay should get about 10 hours
21:52:20 <ehird> Not really, no
21:52:34 <AnMaster> roughly 3.5 hours from ultrabay
21:52:39 <AnMaster> and 9.5 from 12 cell
21:52:43 <Deewiant> http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?Item=N82E16834995034&ATT=34-995-034&CMP=OTC-Froogle&cm_mmc=OTC-Froogle-_-Notebook+Batteries+/+AC+Adapters-_-Lenovo-_-34995034 says "a bit over an hour" and "about 1-1.5 hours"
21:52:58 <ehird> Deewiant: Did they specify the model and workload?
21:53:03 <AnMaster> Deewiant, what ultrabay model is that
21:53:06 <Deewiant> T60p and T60 respectively
21:53:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Click the link?
21:53:14 <AnMaster> since there has been a shitload of them
21:53:19 <ehird> Anyway, halving AnMaster's number let's say 4.75 hours from the 6-cell
21:53:36 <ehird> So I'd get roughly 8.25 hours, assuming same power usage as T43p.
21:53:39 <AnMaster> ehird, he did say he recently replaced batteries due to them being worn out.
21:53:43 <Deewiant> The other guy said 1.5 hours with max power savings on a T60
21:53:45 <AnMaster> in August
21:53:46 <ehird> Probably less, because of newer components, except more, because dual-core.
21:54:01 <AnMaster> anyway I'm going to get an ultrabay one myself :)
21:54:25 <AnMaster> Deewiant, was he running linux? because dynticks + HPET helps a lot.
21:54:41 <Deewiant> I doubt it
21:54:42 <AnMaster> that saves 3-4 W alone for me
21:55:07 <ehird> Deewiant: Anyway, the X200 which is a full Core 2 Duo, 12" widescreen, 4GB RAM kind of machine, except no CD drive, gets 10 hours on the 9-cell
21:55:08 <AnMaster> (I tested back under arch with custom kernel with/without dynticks)
21:55:09 <ehird> alone
21:55:09 <AnMaster> oh and
21:55:13 <ehird> with no ultrabay battery
21:55:15 <ehird> Well, more like 9 hours
21:55:16 <ehird> Still
21:55:34 <Deewiant> The Xfoo series are kinda power-optimized AFAIK
21:55:47 <AnMaster> ehird, ubuntu uses more power than arch, seems to be due to more processes in background
21:56:19 <ehird> Deewiant: But still full-power
21:56:20 <AnMaster> and turning off wlan saves several watts
21:56:58 <AnMaster> oh and newer systems have SATA power link management
21:57:03 <Deewiant> ehird: Just saying that a T60 might get less than half of that
21:57:04 <AnMaster> but T42p won't
21:57:33 <AnMaster> (nor T43p)
21:57:42 <ehird> Deewiant: If this dude gets 14 hours on a T43p with 12-cell + UltraBay, I'm pretty sure I can get 8-9 on a T60p with a 6-cell + UltraBay
21:57:54 <ehird> Of course, it's possible Mr. Dude is lying
21:57:58 <ehird> Or guessing
21:58:15 <Deewiant> I don't know about the differences T43p - T60p
21:58:18 <AnMaster> ehird, he was using linux and I did notice he was using low screen brightness setting
21:58:29 <Deewiant> But I expect that's with minimal settings
21:58:35 <AnMaster> didn't look like ubuntu either
21:58:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Hmm, that last bit is lame
21:58:44 <Deewiant> And I daresay that a 6-cell + UltraBay will get no more than half of 14 hours
21:58:55 <ehird> 7 hours is fine
21:59:03 <ehird> 6 hours is pushing it severely
21:59:11 <ehird> Anyway, bleh.
21:59:11 <Deewiant> That's on a T43p, remember.
21:59:11 <AnMaster> ehird, not sure what distro, but the gnome menu wasn't branded with any distro logo
21:59:19 <ehird> I'd get the X200, but that screen is so small.
21:59:34 <ehird> Deewiant: Yes, and the T60p, while dual-core, has more power-efficient components
21:59:39 <ehird> Since it's Core 2, not Pentium M
21:59:56 <Deewiant> If I were to get one of those out-sticking 12-cell batteries I'd get maybe 5 hours on my R60
22:00:08 <AnMaster> ehird, I use mine on less than max brightness indoors too. Because it is too bright otherwise. One notch below max for me, but his was more like mid-setting
22:00:39 <ehird> Lol, you could get ultra low voltage Xeons in the past
22:00:50 <AnMaster> ehird, err Xenon?
22:00:51 <AnMaster> XD
22:00:54 <ehird> Xeon
22:01:00 <AnMaster> err yeah
22:01:06 <AnMaster> aren't they like for servers?
22:01:08 <ehird> AnMaster: I always use my display at 100% brightness unless it's late and my eyes are hurting
22:01:18 <ehird> And I don't think my display is bright enough; whites are quite gray
22:01:27 <AnMaster> ehird, on battery I use it at 75% for power saving, works fine indoors
22:01:33 <ehird> "The Sossaman was a low-/ultra-low-power and double-processor capable CPU (like AMD Quad FX), based on the "Yonah" processor, for ultradense non-consumer environment (i.e. targeted at the blade-server and embedded markets), and it was rated at a thermal design power (TDP) of 31 W (LV: 1.66 GHz and 2 GHz ) and 15 W (ULV: 1.66 GHz)[2]."
22:01:50 <ehird> I wish Lenovo made the X200 in a 4:3 14" version
22:01:53 <AnMaster> ehird, also most displays look fine unless standing beside a superior display :P
22:01:53 <ehird> I'd be on it like something I'd be on
22:01:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Not IMO
22:02:11 <ehird> I get annoyed using the old 19" LCD in this house, for instance
22:02:21 <AnMaster> I said *most*
22:02:21 <ehird> Because dark gray is basically white on it
22:02:28 <AnMaster> of course you can get bad enough
22:02:30 <ehird> That one is pretty normal
22:02:32 <AnMaster> that it is easy to notice always
22:02:42 <ehird> It cost like 150 pounds in 2006
22:02:46 <AnMaster> ehird, oh right, forgot you didn't use upper-segment monitors :P
22:03:02 <AnMaster> well
22:03:03 <ehird> $250 is a lot for a 19" today, at least
22:03:05 <AnMaster> your mac does
22:03:13 <AnMaster> `calc $250 in SEK
22:03:14 <HackEgo> 1. http://images.google.com/images?q=%24250+in+SEK&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
22:03:17 <AnMaster> ...
22:03:19 <AnMaster> stdu
22:03:20 <ehird> * 250 $
22:03:24 <ehird> `calc 250 $ in SEK
22:03:25 <AnMaster> `calc 250 USD in SEK
22:03:26 <HackEgo> 250 US$ = 1 750.43061 Swedish kronor
22:03:27 <HackEgo> 250 U.S. dollars = 1 750.43061 Swedish kronor
22:03:33 <ehird> `calc 150 pounds in SEK
22:03:34 <HackEgo> 150 British pounds = 1 753.19629 Swedish kronor
22:03:38 <ehird> 3 SEK out! :P
22:03:46 <ehird> (And that error rating was .1 SEK out)
22:03:49 <ehird> ((etc))
22:04:04 <AnMaster> so a pound ~ a USD atm?
22:04:05 <AnMaster> heh
22:04:15 <AnMaster> oh wait
22:04:16 <AnMaster> misread
22:04:23 <ehird> Um, no :P
22:04:29 <ehird> Dollar ~= pound * 1.6
22:04:44 <ehird> Hmm, actually, closer to 1.5
22:04:45 <ehird> er
22:04:46 <ehird> 1.7
22:04:55 <AnMaster> hm I wonder if C has  ~= ...
22:05:01 <ehird> no
22:05:03 <Deewiant> `calc 1 GBP in USD
22:05:03 <AnMaster> wait, it wouldn't make sense
22:05:04 <HackEgo> 1 British pound = 1.6693 U.S. dollars
22:05:04 <AnMaster> but
22:05:06 <AnMaster> ~~
22:05:06 <AnMaster> would
22:05:10 <AnMaster> foo~~;
22:05:12 <AnMaster> that would be nice
22:05:19 <ehird> C needs unary equal thingies
22:05:23 <ehird> ~= foo;
22:05:27 <AnMaster> ehird, or that
22:05:30 <ehird> But mainly:
22:05:31 <ehird> != foo;
22:05:36 <ehird> Which is REALLY USEFUL, HEY?
22:05:38 <ehird> It is.
22:05:43 <ehird> foo = !foo; looks so stupid
22:05:45 <ehird> You can do
22:05:49 <Deewiant> foo ^= true
22:05:53 <ehird> #define TOGGLE(x) x = !x
22:05:55 <ehird> But that looks stupid
22:05:59 <ehird> BECAUSE YOU SHOUT
22:06:02 <ehird> Deewiant: Lame
22:06:06 <ehird> Also, true: not define
22:06:06 <ehird> d
22:06:10 <AnMaster> #define toggle(x) (x) = (!x)
22:06:13 <AnMaster> however
22:06:20 <AnMaster> that may break if it evaluates x twice
22:06:22 <Deewiant> foo ^= 1 for you non-C99ers
22:06:43 <Deewiant> #define toggle(x) ((x) = (!(x)))
22:06:49 <AnMaster> you still need bitwise self-not
22:06:50 <AnMaster> like
22:06:53 <AnMaster> foo~~
22:06:56 <ehird> AnMaster, i t's an lvalue
22:06:58 <ehird> *it's
22:07:02 <AnMaster> for: foo = ~foo;
22:07:03 <ehird> Evaluating it twice does fuck all
22:07:07 <ehird> Unless you do foo()->x
22:07:09 <ehird> Which means you're a retard
22:07:14 <ehird> Because you throw the result away
22:07:17 <ehird> And so achieve nothing
22:07:21 <AnMaster> ehird, um
22:07:21 <ehird> Unless foo() adds it to some global list
22:07:26 <ehird> In which case YOUR PROGRAM FUCKING SUCKS
22:07:33 <AnMaster> ehird, what if foo()->x is memory mapped
22:07:43 <ehird> Your program is shit like a dungheap of shitness
22:08:00 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean, memory mapped to a device output register
22:08:04 <ehird> Any time you do {foo()->x = y;} you've got some black magic that you won't be able to reason about later
22:08:23 <Deewiant> Generalizations yay
22:08:29 <AnMaster> ehird, do {foo()->x = y;} while(true);
22:08:37 <ehird> Sort of like "Killing kittens means you're bad"
22:10:01 <AnMaster> ehird, what if that is the least painful way? You know, death help to kittens
22:10:06 * ehird wonders what posting a link to some loot on thepiratebay on a popular reddit post will result in
22:10:19 <ehird> Probably fire, brimstone and the magical disappearing post and subreddit ban
22:10:24 <ehird> AnMaster: NEVAR
22:10:25 <AnMaster> due to some fatal disease
22:10:35 <ehird> They are still cute, QED
22:11:03 <Deewiant> struct M { int x; }; struct S { struct M m; }; struct M *foo(struct S *s) { return &s->m; }  ...  foo(s)->x = 1; /* not very black */
22:11:31 <AnMaster> ehird, do you prefer to see it wither away for days in painful spasms?
22:11:38 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't that worse?
22:11:44 <ehird> If it looks amusing, definitely!
22:11:53 <ehird> CAN HAS INTERPREATIVE DANCE
22:11:58 <ehird> *INTERPRETIVE
22:12:18 <AnMaster> ehird, and the eyes get all runny at the end.
22:12:19 <ehird> Deewiant: But that doesn't change every tiem you call foo()
22:12:36 <ehird> AnMaster: KITTY IZ SAD BECUZ CANT HAZ CHEEZBURGR
22:12:41 <ehird> *time, also
22:13:10 <AnMaster> ehird, what if it had been a pony instead of a kitten?
22:13:20 <Deewiant> ehird: You didn't specify it had to
22:13:22 <ehird> Ponies are disposable! There is an infinite supply of them
22:13:40 <ehird> Deewiant: True, I was referring to in the context of #define TOGGLE(x) ((x) = !(x)) breaking.
22:14:14 <Deewiant> TOGGLE(x++)
22:14:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, :D
22:14:32 <AnMaster> ooh even better
22:14:43 <AnMaster> TOGGLE(*(++x))
22:14:45 <ehird> Deewiant: YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING INCOMPREHENSIBLY WRONG
22:15:03 <AnMaster> I don't think that is even well defined
22:15:13 <AnMaster> in this case
22:15:25 <Deewiant> TOGGLE(*x++) would be perfectly fine if it evaluated only once
22:15:27 <AnMaster> ehird, also it is quite comprehensible
22:15:37 <Deewiant> TOGGLE(x++) less so
22:15:40 <ehird> But it is so bad :P
22:16:00 <Deewiant> *x++ is quite usual in C if you're dealing with strings or the like.
22:16:37 <ehird> I gues
22:16:38 <ehird> s
22:16:59 <AnMaster> Deewiant, when is it "ok" to use something like: *((float*)((void*)&myintarray))  + 4*i
22:17:15 <ehird> Um.
22:17:16 <ehird> Never?
22:17:43 <AnMaster> ehird, well there is one case, when you are dealing with SIMD intrinsics, thus being restricted to a specific compiler anyway
22:17:45 <Deewiant> Always?
22:18:03 <Deewiant> (You don't need the (void*), do you?)
22:18:14 <ehird> http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9jo27/i_work_for_microsoft_as_a_developer_and_worked_on/c0d1d5u?context=3 <- This is the first time I've ever felt bad for piracy XD
22:18:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you need the void* to shut up gcc shouting about aliasing rules
22:18:42 <Deewiant> Oh, what does it say?
22:19:14 <pikhq> Doesn't GCC provide specific types for the SIMD intrinsics to use?
22:19:39 <AnMaster> pikhq, well yes, but I didn't remember the exact name. And that name differs from icc and gcc anyway
22:19:56 <AnMaster> something like __mm_128_f or whatever in icc I think
22:20:03 <AnMaster> and v4sf in gcc?
22:20:05 <pikhq> Though it sucks balls, C *does* allow for metaprogramming...
22:20:13 <ehird> Maybe I should remove that link :-P
22:20:16 <AnMaster> pikhq, what do you mean?
22:20:22 <AnMaster> ehird, yep
22:20:23 <pikhq> There's a C preprocessor.
22:20:28 <pikhq> You are allowed to use it.
22:20:50 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Errormessage plz
22:20:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what does "AIO Activated" mean?
22:20:51 <ehird> AnMaster: But I shouldn't cave my economic principles to some Microsoft lackey putting three symbols together! :(
22:21:00 <ehird> All-in-One; it has both the 32-bit and 64-bit versions installable
22:21:04 <ehird> Activated means, you know, you don't need a key.
22:21:05 <AnMaster> ehird, you fail
22:21:06 <AnMaster> at counting
22:21:07 <pikhq> Though it does suck, it sucks quite a bit less than some of the alternatives in C.
22:21:20 <ehird> ":-("
22:21:22 <ehird> : 1
22:21:22 <ehird> - 2
22:21:23 <ehird> ( 3
22:21:30 <Deewiant> \n 4
22:21:30 <ehird> maybe you do
22:21:33 <AnMaster> ehird, oh I thought you were providing an example after
22:21:34 <ehird> Deewiant: I see no \n
22:21:36 <AnMaster> "three symbols together! :("
22:21:44 <AnMaster> where ":(" was the example
22:21:44 <ehird> AnMaster: What?
22:21:50 <ehird> No.
22:21:57 <AnMaster> ehird, you were including it to illustrate the point
22:22:02 <ehird> No, I wasn't.
22:22:03 <AnMaster> I thought
22:22:07 <Deewiant> ehird: It's the ctrl+enter / click for "submit"
22:22:14 <Deewiant> AnMaster: Errormessage plz
22:22:23 <ehird> Deewiant: Clicking isn't a symbol
22:22:30 <ehird> Besides, the comment doesn't include it
22:22:35 <ehird> They also had to click "reply"
22:22:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh don't remember exact warning message
22:22:45 <ehird> But the comment is what is making me :( and it is three symbols
22:22:52 <AnMaster> Deewiant, something like "blah blah breaks strict aliasing rules"
22:22:59 <AnMaster> will only happen at -O2 and above
22:23:07 <AnMaster> because gcc doesn't check aliasing below that
22:23:18 <Deewiant> Ah, that's what I was missing.
22:23:23 <AnMaster> because it only uses these rules to optimise harder at -O2 and above
22:23:25 <Deewiant> error: dereferencing type-punned pointer will break strict-aliasing rules
22:23:31 <AnMaster> yep
22:23:46 <AnMaster> Deewiant, there is a variant with "may" instead of "will"
22:23:52 <AnMaster> when it isn't sure
22:23:54 <AnMaster> but here it is
22:24:10 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined.
22:24:32 <Deewiant> But isn't doing (void*) just inviting it to break instead of erroring
22:24:36 <ehird> I should do some C black magic.
22:24:38 <AnMaster> Deewiant, anyway, if you are absolutely sure about what you are doing it is ok
22:24:41 <Deewiant> Shouldn't you be disabling the optimization in question or something
22:24:42 <ehird> There's a lot about the language I don't know.
22:25:08 <AnMaster> Deewiant, in this specific case it isn't dangerous because the thing I casted is a const pattern
22:25:13 <AnMaster> so it won't change
22:25:13 -!- ehird has quit ("Page closed").
22:25:25 <AnMaster> heh nice quit message
22:25:41 <Deewiant> With const it should probably work, yes.
22:26:16 <AnMaster> brb shower
22:26:43 <Deewiant> "night" almost an hour ago and now shower? O_o
22:26:53 <Deewiant> Welp, real night from me anyways ->
22:28:33 -!- ehird has joined.
22:28:40 <ehird> Asztal: lol@that a-patch thing to remove the ads from WLM
22:28:45 <ehird> that you mentioned
22:28:58 <Asztal> Islam is the light!
22:29:05 <ehird> It has some arabic in the top-left hand corner of the site and every. single. news post starts with "Praise be to God."
22:29:07 <ehird> yeah :D
22:29:35 <ehird> "Now you can remove the advertisements and open more than one Messenger at a time (polygamy)"
22:29:40 <ehird> YOU DID NOT HAVE TO CALL THAT POLYGAMY
22:32:22 <ehird> Holy fucking shit, the default chat window is bloated
22:32:25 <ehird> Hugest avatars ever
22:35:00 <ehird> Well that's the worst chat client, ever
22:35:14 <Asztal> Yes
22:35:15 <ehird> Uninstalling without hesitation
22:40:35 <ehird> Asztal: this guy's forums are gold!
22:40:44 <ehird> [[“Or [they are] like darkness within an unfathomable sea which is covered by waves, upon which are waves, over which are clouds, darkness…”]]
22:40:46 <ehird> [[This description was not what someone imagining a storm on a sea to be like would have written; rather, it was written by someone who knew what a storm on the sea was like.]]
22:41:07 <ehird> A sea has lots of waves. Also, there is a sky above and it is dark. There are clouds in it.
22:41:14 <ehird> Clearly, this man has seen the sea.
22:43:08 <ehird> you're all dirty chatzilla users, you windowsers
22:43:14 <ehird> apart from the mircers.
22:43:20 <Asztal> At least I don't run it in firefox.
22:43:28 <ehird> although there's a significant number of windowsers that use irssi
22:43:29 <ehird> for some reason
22:43:37 <ehird> Asztal: well yes, that's more insane
22:43:42 <coppro> it could be like a friend of mine
22:43:46 * oerjan cackles evilly
22:43:49 <coppro> who keeps his desktop as a VNC
22:44:09 <coppro> and has his irssi on an SSH session on remote desktop that's actually on another computer :/
22:44:12 <ehird> oerjan: NOT
22:44:12 <ehird> FUNNY
22:44:13 <ehird> :P
22:44:21 <ehird> coppro: cease being his friend. he is crazy.
22:44:23 <ehird> in a bad way
22:44:24 <ehird> :P
22:44:38 <coppro> ehird: lets him work from home, so I think he's quite sane
22:45:08 <oerjan> i do have my irssi on an ssh session
22:45:21 <oerjan> (via putty)
22:46:15 <ehird> well, basically all windowsers do
22:46:17 <ehird> otherwise you need cygwin
22:46:29 <ehird> well, there is a windows installer
22:46:30 <ehird> still
22:46:34 <ehird> ssh seems to be the most popular method
22:46:35 <ehird> with putty
22:49:09 -!- impomatic has left (?).
22:59:08 <ehird> Incidentally, is it just me or is Foxit Reader kind of crap?
22:59:11 <ehird> Maybe older versions are better.
23:02:08 * ehird downloads Foxit v2
23:02:14 <ehird> I wonder if it has a netscape plugin that Chrome can use.
23:03:17 <AnMaster> <Deewiant> "night" almost an hour ago and now shower? O_o <-- time traveling sure is annoying indeed.
23:03:37 <ehird> i wish you would stop saying night
23:04:18 <ehird> Foxit 2 looks exactly the same as 3.1, except it doesn't try and install the "Foxit toolbar", which is an improvement. The installer still uses faux Windows XP widgets and the app itself still has iffy-looking widgets - especially the menus.
23:04:31 <ehird> Why isn't there a *Windows-native* lightweight PDF reader with a Netscape-style plugin?
23:04:42 <AnMaster> ehird, what is foxit?
23:04:48 <ehird> A PDF reader.
23:05:00 <AnMaster> ehird, acrobat reader 3.0?
23:05:06 <Asztal> I wonder how difficult it would be to add a NPAPI plugin to sumatra.
23:05:13 <ehird> Isn't 3.0 like super-ancient
23:05:18 <ehird> I doubt it'll work very well
23:05:20 <ehird> Especially with new PDFs
23:05:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, enough to be lightweight!
23:05:25 <ehird> Asztal: I dismissed Sumatra because of that
23:05:27 <ehird> but it looks really good
23:05:29 <Asztal> Because Sumatra is pretty much the most lightweight one you'll find.
23:05:30 <oerjan> ehird: it's a perfectly accurate time designation!
23:05:34 <ehird> I'll try it out
23:05:43 <AnMaster> sumatra the island?
23:05:46 <Asztal> It renders slowly, though. That's my only other gripe.
23:05:51 <ehird> http://blog.kowalczyk.info/software/sumatrapdf/index.html
23:05:56 <ehird> Asztal: What sort of machine?
23:05:56 <AnMaster> what is wrong with kpdf?
23:06:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Windows.
23:06:03 <ehird> You're being intentionally obtuse.
23:06:06 <AnMaster> ehird, KDE runs on cygwin
23:06:17 <AnMaster> at least parts to
23:06:18 <ehird> Yeah, and so does stabbing my eyes out with a fork.
23:06:20 <AnMaster> do*
23:06:27 <AnMaster> ehird, yep, fork() is there
23:06:28 <AnMaster> and
23:06:31 <ehird> I kind of want something that uses Windows, not X11 with Qt, you know?
23:06:34 <AnMaster> the implementation is pretty eye-stabbing
23:06:41 <ehird> I've read fork(), yes.
23:06:44 <ehird> It's sane enough.
23:06:46 <ehird> Needs more COW.
23:07:02 <ehird> I wish more stuff would be 64-bit
23:07:33 <AnMaster> ehird, again... I can only recommend linu
23:07:35 <AnMaster> linux*
23:07:51 <AnMaster> because everything except zsnes is 64-bit on this system
23:08:06 <ehird> you could also shut up
23:08:25 <ehird> It was "wish", not "this is absolutely vital".
23:08:27 <AnMaster> ehird, I see no good reason to do so
23:08:45 <ehird> Well if you want to be a dick, sure, there's no reason to
23:10:28 <ehird> Asztal: What machine is Sumatra slow on?
23:10:44 <ehird> I can see it loading, sure, but it takes like <0.1s
23:11:40 <Asztal> It's not slow to load, but when scrolling through a document the pages show up as "rendering page..." for quite a while sometimes
23:11:58 <AnMaster> arvid@dragon /sys/devices/platform/smapi/BAT0 $ cat manufacture_date
23:11:58 <AnMaster> 2008-07-13
23:11:58 <AnMaster> arvid@dragon /sys/devices/platform/smapi/BAT0 $ cat first_use_date
23:11:58 <AnMaster> 2009-07-25
23:11:59 <AnMaster> heh
23:12:14 <Asztal> (It's a Q9450 with 4GB of RAM.)
23:12:16 <AnMaster> that's... interesting
23:12:41 <ehird> Asztal: hrm
23:13:02 <ehird> I don't like how Sumatra can't resize the window to fit the page width automatically
23:13:13 <ehird> Maybe I should write a decent PDF reader.
23:13:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I want li-poly battery for thinkpad. that would be cool
23:13:39 <ehird> It seems to be one of those fields that attracts custom interfaces, bloat and sucking.
23:13:52 <ehird> AnMaster: I want a flat battery for ThinkPads, like Apple has.
23:14:01 <ehird> 7 hours on a small, non-poking-out-or-raising battery? Fuck yeah!
23:14:06 <ehird> Almost certainly patented, though.
23:14:09 <ehird> They're really tooting that horn.
23:14:10 <AnMaster> raising?
23:14:14 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:14:21 <ehird> AnMaster: The 6-cell battery, e.g., raises the back of the ThinkPad up.
23:14:27 <ehird> As opposed to the 4-cell, which keeps it flat.
23:14:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night").
23:14:37 <AnMaster> ehird, the 9 cell ones raises too?
23:14:39 <Asztal> ehird: it seems to be rendering very quickly now that I try it again, maybe it was specific to some of the PDFs I tried.
23:14:42 <ehird> And pokes out.
23:14:50 <AnMaster> ehird, right, mine is flat
23:14:56 <ehird> No it's not. You think it is.
23:15:01 <ehird> It's actually raised slightly at the back.
23:15:04 <ehird> But the point is, the Apple binaries are regular-sized and lightweight, and the smallest one, in a 13" notebook just over 2kg, gets 7 hours.
23:15:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I took the battery out recently and noticed no difference
23:15:14 <ehird> (The 17" one, which is just shy of 3kg, gets 8.)
23:16:18 <AnMaster> ehird, the things that make the thinkpad stand up from the surface in any case (the rubber thingies) are higher, just looked under it...
23:16:19 <ehird> There must be a good library for rendering PDFs, and I guess the Netscape plugin API is quite simple, so the only problem I'll have will be, oh god, the Windows GUI API thingy.
23:16:36 <ehird> I wonder if there's some fancy C# thing that makes it look like Cthulhu with makeup instead of two Cthulhus.
23:16:43 <AnMaster> ehird, there is a good library, poppler iirc
23:16:57 <ehird> How's its typography? Uses the system?
23:17:00 <AnMaster> * app-text/poppler
23:17:00 <AnMaster>      Available versions:  0.8.7 0.10.4 ~0.10.5 0.10.5-r1 {cjk doc jpeg zlib}
23:17:00 <AnMaster>      Homepage:            http://poppler.freedesktop.org/
23:17:00 <AnMaster>      Description:         PDF rendering library based on the xpdf-3.0 code base
23:17:07 <ehird> Based on xpdf, it seems
23:17:14 <AnMaster> ehird, as I just said
23:17:25 <AnMaster> ehird, and it works good for me
23:17:26 <ehird> I hate xpdf for one reason -
23:17:29 <ehird> [[If any security features are turned on by the creator of a PDF document, the PDF file will be encrypted. These security features let an author disallow printing, copying text/graphics, editing, and/or adding annotations.]]
23:17:33 <ehird> It respects those batshit fascist features
23:17:36 <AnMaster> ehird, that is possible to turn off
23:17:36 <ehird> "features"
23:17:40 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't care, it's evil
23:17:52 <AnMaster> ehird, since kpdf uses poppler, and kpdf defaults to not respecting it...
23:17:53 <Asztal> ehird: sumatra uses mupdf, which IIRC looked fairly simple
23:18:07 <ehird> Asztal: I *would* like something more instant, though.
23:18:12 <ehird> AnMaster: http://www.foolabs.com/xpdf/screen1.png ;; xpdf's typography appears to be lacking.
23:18:51 <AnMaster> <ehird> I don't like how Sumatra can't resize the window to fit the page width automatically <ehird> Maybe I should write a decent PDF reader. <ehird> It seems to be one of those fields that attracts custom interfaces, bloat and sucking. <-- sounds like your one would "more bloated" than this sumatra then ;P
23:19:17 <AnMaster> ehird, that's a super old version I thin
23:19:21 <AnMaster> think*
23:19:34 <AnMaster> ehird, kpdf looks better, and it uses poppler
23:20:03 <ehird> Alright, then.
23:20:06 <ehird> But that screenshot is from the xpdf site :P
23:20:21 <ehird> But poppler presumably uses freetype, not Windowswhatevertype.
23:20:41 <ehird> http://ccxvii.net/mupdf/ Hey, MuPDF has a Windows viewer and Firefox plugin.
23:20:43 <ehird> Interesting.
23:21:06 <Asztal> http://code.google.com/p/sumatrapdf/source/browse/trunk/src/SumatraPDF.cpp have fun
23:21:11 <AnMaster> ehird, 217?
23:21:36 <AnMaster> ehird, ghostscript logo? hm
23:22:17 <ehird> Artifex software.
23:22:19 <ehird> They make ghostscript.
23:22:35 <ehird> IIRC, at least.
23:23:06 <ehird> mupdf.exe has no UI except for keyboard controls to go forward/back, which is unacceptable, it seems.
23:23:19 <Asztal> Yes, it's slightly minimalistic :D
23:23:22 <ehird> The others are command-line tools.
23:23:23 <ehird> Oh well.
23:23:51 <Asztal> Still, it's better than one postscript reader I found, which would only let me go forward and not backward.
23:23:57 <ehird> Asztal: you do windows-type gui programming thingy don't you?
23:24:00 <ehird> I seem to recall something along those linse
23:24:02 <ehird> *lines
23:24:14 <AnMaster> ehird, oh iirc xpdf doesn't use freetype. At least xpdf looks worse than kpdf here
23:24:23 <AnMaster> and iirc xpdf doesn't use poppler
23:24:23 <Asztal> Yes, though preferably not dealing directly with the windows API.
23:25:13 <ehird> AnMaster: poppler is based on xpdf.
23:25:18 <ehird> Asztal: How then?
23:25:24 <ehird> .NET Windows Forms stuff?
23:25:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yes... *based* on
23:25:31 <AnMaster> there are some differences
23:25:35 <AnMaster> iirc
23:26:01 <ehird> Of course.
23:26:03 <Asztal> ehird: That's one way. (It's bad, and lets windows API faults leak in, but it's still preferable)
23:26:11 <ehird> But I doubt poppler has pluggable text rendering.
23:26:20 <ehird> Asztal: What else, then?
23:26:42 <Asztal> I haven't used much else that's good.
23:26:53 <Asztal> There's WTL, which may or may not be good.
23:27:11 <Asztal> There's XUL, which has the problem of XPCOM and gecko and stuff.
23:27:22 <ehird> XUL is horrifically bad.
23:27:25 <Asztal> There's WPF, which is enterprisey and has really bad font rendering.
23:27:52 <ehird> Howso?
23:27:57 <Asztal> I'm not aware of many more that can give a native feel.
23:28:18 <ehird> How does WPF have bad font rendering?
23:29:01 <Asztal> ehird: It doesn't do antialiasing properly, IMO. You end up with "fuzzy" fonts (more so than normal cleartype, which I find perfectly readable.)
23:29:03 <AnMaster> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_PostScript <-- cool
23:29:14 <ehird> AnMaster: you don't know about dps?
23:29:23 <AnMaster> ehird, um. I do *now*
23:29:25 <ehird> Asztal: http://www.devcomponents.com/dotnetbar-wpf/img/WpfDockRibbonPad.png looks like it has no subpixel
23:29:36 <ehird> No, it does
23:29:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't before however
23:29:40 <ehird> It's just fuzzy
23:29:49 <ehird> Asztal: Cleartype is kind of crap, btw
23:29:58 <ehird> Although I've got used to it; maybe 7 improved it.
23:30:47 * ehird wonders if any of the PDF libraries can keep the graphics sized-down, but make the text bigger
23:30:58 <ehird> That'd be nice for reading PDFs without a hueg-liek-xbox window.
23:31:07 <AnMaster> hueg-liek-xbox <--?
23:31:12 <Asztal> ehird: Yes, I think it can't use cleartype because it's not drawing aligned to the pixel grid, it's drawing at subpixel locations...
23:31:52 <Asztal> Supposedly cleartype was improved in 7 to support vertical antialiasing as well as horizontal, but I think that's more of a CJK thing.
23:39:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
23:42:36 <AnMaster> night really
23:51:32 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
23:52:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Huge like xbox.
23:53:05 <ehird> wrt vertical thing: yeah, i made this display portrait :-)
23:53:08 <ehird> for a second
23:53:20 <ehird> can't rotate it though, and putting it on its side might damage the components
23:53:37 <ehird> fwiw, the font rendering in http://www.devcomponents.com/dotnetbar-wpf/img/WpfDockRibbonPad.png looks better than cleartype to me
23:53:58 <ehird> I guess I'll go with Windows Forms, unless Qt is native on Windows these days.
23:54:00 <ehird> Or WTL.
23:55:30 <ehird> "Be Part of Windows History, Host a Windows® 7 Launch Party."
23:55:48 <ehird> Fun fact: Explicitly not attending one of these parties increases your attractiveness quotient by 75.
23:57:33 <ehird> Poppler is just PDF, which is a shame. I could do like Preview and automatically convert PostScript and DVI files to PDF beforehand, though.
23:57:43 <ehird> I wonder if it could do my scale-up-only-text thing.