00:02:41 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:02:45 http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/09/10/yeah-ok-so-facebook-punkd-us/ ;; from reddit. TechCrunch? Inaccurate? Naive? ZomGNEVar!!!1 00:03:55 Sweet, uninstalling Sumatra doesn't remove its start menu icons 00:14:18 -!- rodgort has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:19:41 -!- rodgort has joined. 00:20:35 * ehird is continually surprised that people actually install drivers that come with a piece of hardware 00:25:01 I really hate the windows-tab switcher thing 00:25:11 It's just different enough from Expose to (a) not be a ripoff, (b) be useless 00:27:15 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 00:28:30 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:29:00 -!- coppro has joined. 00:30:28 and, 801.11n is approved 00:30:34 really? 00:30:34 kick-ass 00:30:44 coppro: identical to recent drafts? 00:30:49 or do we need yet more hardware 00:30:54 ehird: I don't know 00:30:56 I just read /. 00:30:59 kay 00:31:07 I hope it's close enough to recent drafts 00:31:13 my new computer has a draft-n chip 00:31:42 coppro: does it really matter though 00:31:43 ? 00:31:48 *802.11n 00:31:48 the one before that is fast enough 00:32:02 coppro: anyway, there's been draft-n hardware since, like, mid 2008 00:32:04 so you should be fine 00:32:15 ehird: probably not. But as far as drafts go, they usually don't change in the last few steps of standardization 00:32:29 maybe clarifications, but no major feature changes 00:32:33 yeah 00:33:43 http://www.oldskool.org/pc/8088_Corruption ;; Full-speed video on an original PC 00:34:47 including sound 00:34:50 and full CGA 00:36:52 Right, that's it, I'm writing my own PDF reader 00:42:46 "First Sumatra was based on Xpdf (v<0.2), then Poppler as backend but it changed to MuPDF because of better support for the Windows platform." 00:42:51 won't be using poppler then 00:54:45 * ehird reconsiders his position on Foxit 00:54:47 you can hide the ad 00:55:04 and the menu, at least, turns normal, although the menus therein don't 00:56:42 but it's still not perfect, so nyah :) 00:57:38 ofc the latest version is still uber-bloated 00:57:40 but i can use 2 00:58:46 -!- immibis has joined. 00:59:37 -!- immibis has quit (Client Quit). 01:01:08 ...wtf, foxit uses its own open dialog 01:01:12 no 01:01:14 just an old one 01:01:16 disqualified! 01:01:38 ehird: it's better than Kubuntu alpha 01:01:46 you should see OO.org's file dialog 01:02:01 coppro: linux file dialogs are pretty much unrescuable 01:02:03 I filed a bug entitled "KDE FIle dialog utterly broken" - no one has disputed that claim 01:02:12 Windows' are pretty damn good 01:02:17 nah, KDE's is pretty good 01:02:22 well, true 01:02:22 just the OO.org guys fail 01:02:28 gnome's kinda sucks, though 01:02:35 it takes the wrong approach to simplicity entirely 01:02:38 also, whatever one thunderbird is using 01:02:44 mozilla have their own 01:02:47 you can make it use kde's 01:02:47 I type in the filename, halfway through it autocompletes it 01:02:48 there's a plugin thing 01:02:58 without even having a dropdown or anything 01:03:35 for instance, I download a file, need to open with kate. If I type "/usr/bin/kate", I end up with "/usr/sr/bin/in/katete" 01:03:42 :D 01:04:15 well that's clearly the program Katate, which is a non-base-system special resource, translated to indian 01:05:09 whoever designed that should be shot 01:05:21 that applies to most things 01:05:35 eh, most of them it's just locked up and left to die 01:05:42 this file dialog is a shooting offence 01:06:06 btw, turn on your away flag, head in to #nomirc, and say you're away 01:06:09 i think slowly dying of thirst is more horrific than being shot 01:18:25 also, WJW @ http://code.google.com/p/sumatrapdf/source/browse/trunk/src/SumatraPDF.cpp 01:18:28 ever hearda files? 01:31:43 for instance, I download a file, need to open with kate. If I type "/usr/bin/kate", I end up with "/usr/sr/bin/in/katete" 01:31:44 ARGH 01:31:45 I know 01:31:48 That's so FEKKING ANNOYING 01:32:04 let's make a MOB 01:32:17 LYNCH! LYNCH! LYNCH! 01:32:29 I'd rather just make a sob. 01:32:32 *sobs* 01:33:16 Lynch a S.O.B. 01:33:28 EDGY 01:36:37 I do hope there's a better way to make Windowsy GUIy things without using Visual Studio. 01:39:43 Do the GUI code by hand? 01:39:55 Assemble the whole GUI in code? 01:40:00 Yeah, uh, I said "a better way". 01:41:25 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 01:44:29 building GUIs in code isn't as hard as people make it out to be 01:44:37 It isn't hard 01:44:38 It's just bad 01:44:54 It's obfuscatory, it doesn't help you design UIs (you have to design them in your head then write it as code), ... 01:45:17 -!- ehird_ has joined. 01:46:59 -!- ehird_ has left (?). 01:47:04 -!- ehird has quit ("Page closed"). 01:47:21 -!- ehird has joined. 01:47:38 -!- ehird has left (?). 01:48:23 -!- ehird has joined. 01:48:34 test 01:53:53 -!- ehird has quit ("gnop"). 02:11:32 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it"). 02:38:18 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:07:59 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:08:00 -!- Sgeo_ has joined. 03:15:18 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:15:21 -!- Sgeo__ has joined. 03:38:19 -!- ehird has joined. 03:38:23 CMake Error at cmake/modules/CfungeRequireFunction.cmake:35 (message): Your system seems to be missing the function "getaddrinfo" which is required by cfunge. 03:38:27 stumbling block numero uno! 03:38:58 * ehird grabs himself an implementation of getaddrinfo 03:41:58 holy fucking hell ./configure is slow on cygwin 03:42:07 even slower than ccmake was at the start 03:42:25 good thing I'm only using this POS to try cmake compilation 03:42:25 ehird, I assume you want to use CFunge while playing your game? 03:42:35 Sgeo__: something like that :) 03:42:51 I'm just trying to irritate AnMaster by providing him a few short patches to make it work perfectly on cygwin 03:43:06 and watch him squirm as he tries to come up with excuses not to commit them! 03:43:34 I take it that Cygwin is imperfect? 03:43:46 process spawning on windows is dog slow. no way around that. 03:43:53 But cygwin is fitting a square peg into a round hole badly. 03:44:18 I'm going to switch to MinGW+Xming, paired with MSYS. 03:44:35 Or just MinGW+GnuWin32, but that doesn't include a shell afaik. 03:44:49 All I want is the basic unix tools and a nice shell + terminal, that's all. 03:53:30 -!- augur has joined. 03:55:55 We have cfunge configuration page! 03:55:59 * ehird tweaks linker options to link with the impl 03:57:11 And it's compiling! 03:57:18 With a shitload of warnings for every file. 03:57:23 Including a bunch of visibility ones. 03:57:37 /home/Elliott/cfunge-0.9.0/src/funge-space/funge-space.c:50:4: error: #error "cfunge needs a working mmap(), which this system claims it lacks." 03:57:48 bullshit 03:57:53 cygwin's mmap works 03:57:55 let's patch that out 03:58:24 oh, "working" = OMG POSIX DECLARATION YAAAAY 03:59:02 /home/Elliott/cfunge-0.9.0/src/fingerprints/REXP/REXP.c:31:4: error: #error "cfunge needs POSIX regular expressions, which this system claims it doesn't have." 03:59:19 :-| 03:59:21 you irritate me. 04:00:31 /home/Elliott/cfunge-0.9.0/src/fingerprints/TURT/TURT.c:223: error: 'M_PI' undeclared (first use in this function) 04:00:36 /home/Elliott/cfunge-0.9.0/src/fingerprints/TURT/TURT.c:228: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function 'round' 04:01:36 AnMaster: yo, M_PI is non-standard. 04:02:16 that compile went very well, only a few linker errors 04:02:37 SOCK and SCKE both define ___ntohl and ___ntohs apparently 04:02:41 but "static" isn't supported on cygwin 04:03:29 ah, from getaddrinfo, presumably 04:03:51 hmm, maybe 04:04:34 ah, it's from winsock 04:05:17 * ehird replaces _Exit with exit 04:05:21 hmm, no, just _exit 04:05:40 just compile to LLVM :P 04:05:58 uhh, no, that won't work 04:06:03 (neat fact: one of the examples LLVM comes with is a brainfuck interpreter) 04:06:04 LLVM doesn't provide posix libraries. 04:06:23 CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SOCK/SOCK.c.o:SOCK.c:(.text+0x0): multiple definition of `___ntohl' CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0x0): first defined here CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SOCK/SOCK.c.o:SOCK.c:(.text+0x10): multiple definition of `___ntohs' CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0x10): first defined here 04:06:28 as soon as I can fix those, I have a compilation 04:06:53 same file's getting compiled more than once? 04:07:11 read the damn error, it's that some header file defines those twice 04:07:15 a winsock header, obviously 04:07:36 oh 04:07:51 naturally I have no f'n clue how to fix that... 04:08:05 make it inline 04:08:06 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:08:08 knowing windows headers I can probably do #define WINSOCK_DO_NOT_DEFINE_NTOHL 04:08:10 it's kludgy but it will work 04:08:11 coppro: it's in a system header file. 04:08:15 oh 04:08:20 you know. winsock. 04:08:33 wait, you're on Windows? 04:08:49 obviously; I'm trying to compile cfunge with cygwin 04:08:56 for the lulz 04:08:59 ah 04:09:17 it failed a lot at the start because cygwin doesn't pedantically claim to be posix-perfect by defining a name in a header file :) 04:09:24 Why would CFunge not work on cygwin? 04:09:39 First of all, it's not CFunge, stop calling it that. 04:09:55 Second of all, AnMaster idk, his BFF unrealistic demand for POSIX compliance. 04:10:33 My demand for cross-platform workability was the cause of a major spec change in PSOX 04:10:48 Although come to think of it, I never tested PSOX on Windows 04:11:22 I'm actually planning on writing a fully-featured PDF reader for Windows, complete with browser plugin, so I guess I'm off the deep end into the Dark Side now. 04:11:38 Also, fun fact: Going off an end to get to a side makes no sense whatsoever. 04:13:00 Sgeo__: This is your new favourite subreddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/tipofmytongue/ 04:13:37 ehird, because I made a comment once or twice about wanting to find something that I forgot the name of? 04:13:52 And also posted to reddit about it with cringeworthy audio! 04:14:05 I didn't actually post it to reddit 04:14:13 Yes you did 04:14:23 I posted about something else to reddit 04:14:49 Which one of these has cringeworthy audio? http://www.reddit.com/user/Sgeo/submitted/ 04:15:15 I don't actually care enough to look... 04:16:07 Why do I only ever make cringeworthy stuff? 04:16:43 Inherentness. :D 04:17:15 In case you haven't noticed, I'm kind of a dick. True story. 04:18:39 * ehird puts all the socket includes in the global cfunge header file, says "fuck it" 04:20:01 Oh, I think "static" isn't working because of an old version of something. 04:20:11 coppro: s/static/inline/ :D 04:20:42 ehird: yeah, that would do it 04:20:48 oh, PE just doesn't do static 04:20:55 coppro: except like 90% of cfunge things are static 04:21:04 ehird: #define static inline ;) 04:21:16 (that's a terrible idea. Don't do that. Seriously) 04:21:31 [04:20] coppro: s/static/inline/ :D 04:21:35 I kind of pre-empted you there... 04:21:43 HAHAHA 04:21:46 by putting it in the global header 04:21:50 now ALL of the objects conflict 04:21:56 oh dear 04:22:37 hmm 04:22:42 is there a way to declare a function inline after the fact? 04:23:22 no 04:23:24 Hm, why would declaring functions inline affect anything other than efficiency? 04:23:32 Sgeo__: it affects the ODR 04:23:38 and the QXB 04:23:45 and the TLA 04:24:18 ODR = One Definition Rule 04:24:20 ..why would anything try to define a function more than once? 04:24:33 Sgeo__: you are supid. sop alking 04:24:38 -!- GreaseMonkey has joined. 04:24:43 now that i've re-attached my t key, hi 04:24:47 Sgeo is unfamiliar with C-like languages 04:24:56 yeah yeah shush you :P 04:25:04 bashing sgeo is my national sport. 04:25:07 Sgeo__: #include is a text replacement operation, so if a function is defined in a header, it will be defined in every TU to #include it 04:25:07 Namespace/scope issues? 04:25:23 coppro: you're intentionally using acronyms to confuse him, aren't you :P 04:25:23 ...why would a function be defined in a header? 04:25:50 And why would it work in a real POSIX environment but not cygwin? 04:25:52 Sgeo__: for whatever reason 04:25:58 cygwin isn't perfect 04:26:00 and windows isn't perfect 04:26:06 because it's using Winsock 04:26:11 no 04:26:12 it's 04:26:13 windows' PE executable format has no visibility stuff 04:26:16 therefore cygwin can't do visibility 04:26:21 therefore "static" can go fuck itself 04:26:22 OH that would do it 04:26:31 presumably microsoft's compiler does something special for static 04:26:34 but gcc on cygwin doesn't 04:26:53 hmm 04:27:15 I still don't see why functions were defined in headers 04:27:53 ehird: I've got a truly terrible idea 04:28:02 this particular function is defined in a header written in assembly 04:28:02 it seems 04:28:04 or something like that 04:28:08 coppro: i'm scared 04:28:19 ehird: compile Winelib's Winsock in Cygwin 04:28:28 FUCK 04:28:28 THAT 04:28:29 SHIT 04:28:39 (but it probably does the same thing) 04:28:40 I warned you 04:28:48 ehird is Randall Munroe in disguise! 04:28:56 FUCK 04:28:57 THAT 04:28:57 SHIT 04:28:59 ALSO 04:29:20 UNTO 04:29:23 BATS 04:29:26 ehird: alternate solution: how many source files actually include winsock? 04:29:27 CAGE 04:29:27 WINS 04:29:35 coppro: Two. 04:29:43 SOCK, and SCKE. Two competing fingerprints. 04:29:51 They cannot be combined. 04:29:52 ehird: pick the one that uses WinSock less and declare the functions yourself 04:29:59 rather than #including 04:30:03 But I have to define structures and stuff too. 04:30:10 And I could just, you know, kill myself instead. 04:31:52 coppro: Maybe I should just disable whichever one fungot doesn't use. 04:31:53 ehird: i did sort-of guess that it would have been a different feature, like first-class continuations. for closures all you need for a portable device with a non-gpl firmware? they shouldn't care about that 04:32:08 I don't think C has first-class continuations, fizzie. 04:32:23 Also, closures have nothing to do with proprietary portable devices. Indeed they should not care about such things. 04:32:28 *fungot 04:32:29 ehird: mit.edu knows the right info! :) how long does it take to build a derived structure in another module 04:32:29 not fizzie 04:32:38 ^source 04:32:38 http://git.zem.fi/fungot 04:32:43 C should totally support first-class continuations :D 04:32:55 I cleaned up some code that did that once. 04:33:00 And e.g. Elk Scheme does it. 04:33:06 although it does have longjump *shudder* 04:33:11 It involves that. 04:33:34 * coppro is glad longjmp in C++ is basically defined as "go fuck yourself" 04:33:47 You find the base of the stack at the start of the program, then copy from the top of the stack to there. Then you setjmp, and make a (setjmp thingy,stack) tuple type. 04:33:56 To resume, copy the stack back and longjmp. 04:34:00 Voila! Is like a magic! 04:35:18 so basically you make a cactus stack 04:35:26 old 04:35:35 Uhh. 04:35:38 No, you just copy the stack. 04:35:39 To an array. 04:35:50 It's... not hard. 04:35:52 oh 04:35:54 It gives you first-class continuations. 04:35:56 unexciting then 04:36:02 coppro: The C stack. 04:36:05 yes, I know 04:36:05 It works with any C code. 04:36:17 You said C should have first-class continuations; I say it's easy to code; you say it's boring. wut 04:36:29 cactus stacks are more fun! 04:36:48 copying a block of memory turns out to be fast, and so are setjmp/longjmp 04:36:49 so this is fine 04:37:12 although not the nop it is in e.g. continuation-passing style 04:38:10 Longjmp is an awful hack. Though, that's not *much* of an argument against it. After all, awful hacks are the C way. 04:38:22 setjmp is just saving a bunch of registers and a pointer to the stack 04:38:31 oh, I forgot one step in the make-continuation part 04:38:38 Still an awful hack. 04:38:40 no wait 04:38:43 in the resume part 04:38:56 you set the setjmp-struct's stack pointer to point to your newly-restored stack 04:38:58 or whatever 04:39:01 otherwise it doesn't work 04:39:01 i think 04:39:02 wouldn't it just be easier to make a function that has no local state call setjmp, thus making a proper continuation easier? 04:39:12 that isn't a continuation 04:39:18 setjmp fails as soon as you fall below the frame that called it 04:39:25 also, that is totally irrelevant 04:39:28 it has nothing to do with that at all 04:40:52 lol, fungot uses both SOCK and SCKE 04:40:52 ehird: they use python right now 04:40:53 kill me now 04:40:56 fungot: no they don't 04:40:56 ehird: me is looking for something better to happen", or " a deep dark secret". even though it doesn't mean anything 04:41:07 don't search for things with no meaning, fungot :P 04:41:21 ehird 04:41:26 are you trying to run your own fungot? 04:41:26 coppro: i trust them.)" fnord) 04:41:36 coppro: no, but running fungot on windows would be fun 04:41:37 ehird: key words: " in the right hands) to the channel is active, and which i thought replaced it 04:41:47 anyway 04:41:51 I have no idea htf to fix this 04:42:23 why are you using winsock anyways? 04:42:30 umm, because that's what cygwin's sockets are. 04:42:35 really? fail 04:42:42 winsock is BSD sockets, you know. 04:42:49 Well, winsock is at least close to normal sockets. 04:42:52 so basically cygwin can't compile sockets 04:42:56 ... 04:42:56 that doesn't sound right 04:43:03 Different header was the main difference, right? 04:43:04 coppro: winsock's API = berkely sockets API 04:43:12 yes I know 04:43:14 **berkely sockets' 04:43:24 pikhq: winsock lets you use the BSD header names 04:43:26 and it works 04:43:26 but cygwin should be able to compile sockets 04:43:33 coppro: what the fuck does that mean? 04:43:35 it can compile socket code 04:43:39 ehird: it clearly can't 04:43:40 ehird: Oh. 04:43:43 since it isn't working 04:43:44 coppro: no 04:43:45 listen 04:43:49 THIS gcc 04:43:53 Well, then, winsock is nothing more than an implementation of BSD sockets. 04:43:54 which is gcc 4 04:43:56 I don't know why 04:43:59 I thought cfunge needed it 04:44:04 well 04:44:04 look 04:44:05 I don't know 04:44:06 which GCC can? 04:44:09 it works for other people 04:44:11 I don't know 04:44:12 at all 04:44:18 but cygwin sockets work fine for most people 04:44:22 pikhq: winsock is based on BSD sockets. 04:44:26 like, the actual code. 04:44:59 ehird: In the same way that BSD is an implementation of UNIX. That it's a fork doesn't change that. 04:45:15 hmm 04:45:17 cygwin has socket headers 04:45:18 it seems 04:45:21 presumably it then includes winsock.h itself 04:45:31 But yeah, you're right. I had temporarily forgotten that Windows devs just took BSD sockets and ported it. 04:45:32 so i was wrong in saying you can use the old header names with winsock 04:45:34 it's cygwin donig that 04:46:15 *doing 04:46:35 dhdghdfh 04:46:37 bleh 04:46:38 this is irritating 04:53:10 ah fuck it 04:53:16 it'll obviously work if i fix this, so point proven 04:53:20 whatever that point is 04:53:24 time to remove cygcrap from my disk 04:56:05 all gone 04:56:25 I wonder if Mono supports the windows gui stuff 05:03:10 coppro: as a warning, you may get more flak from me for using C++ in the near future 05:03:29 ehird: says someone considering Mono 05:04:29 coppro: I'm fairly sure that Windows Forms is less horrific than MFC, WTL or Win32, dood. 05:04:49 But I'll likely go for stock .NET, it's just that that involves using Visual Studio and ew. 05:04:52 gtkmm ftw (or ftl on Windows I guess) 05:05:18 Yeah, I'm kinda trying to write something native, small, low memory usage, fast, no dependencies... 05:05:26 So, basically the opposite of gtkmm. 05:05:28 :P 05:06:33 SDL? 05:06:50 (or SFML in C++, which I know you hate) 05:07:08 SDL is a graphics library, not a GUI library... 05:07:23 Unless you mean "make your own widgets", in which case please give me your address so that I may stab you. 05:07:34 (I *did* say "native" and all...) 05:07:58 oh, you want native widgets 05:08:06 then yeah, winforms is probably the way to go :/ 05:08:14 mono has winforms support 05:08:24 No, coppro; I want to make a PDF viewer with blinking SDL widgets. :P 05:08:36 "It's just like every game menu ever!" 05:08:53 Anyway, yeah; I'm either going for winforms or WTL. 05:09:05 I wonder if Mono/WinForms has a GUI designer thingy. 05:10:31 Also, creepy thing of the yesterday: Windows detected that I was using an all-in-one computer in the hardware control panel thing. 05:11:16 ehird: according to mono's page, SharpDevelop does 05:12:15 http://static.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/TeaserSharpDevelop2OnVista.png Well, it doesn't look *awful*... 05:12:28 I'm just wary because foss stuff is usually crap on windows. 05:13:15 SharpDevelop looks like I'd be able to do it on .NET without using Visual Studio, which is nice. 05:13:29 I wonder if .NET can interact with MinGW-compiled code alright. 05:13:41 I'd like to compile whatever PDF library i use with MinGW then link it into the final .NET binary... 05:13:51 no clue 05:14:11 I don't think Mono can bridge into nonmanaged code yet 05:14:12 I know it can import dlls fine, the only question is if you can do that with... non-dlls. 05:14:16 at least, not very well 05:14:47 Yah, Mono's out if I can use .NET without VS. 05:15:22 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b6/SharpDevelop.png not that sharpdevelop looks any better 05:15:36 I wonder if these IDE guys ever just look at one of their screenshots. 05:15:48 ehird: well, you can 05:16:00 Insert qualifier "comfortably". 05:16:58 * ehird , wanting to use the Microsoft WinForms site thing, installs Silverlight, sighs 05:20:20 -!- Sgeo__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:23:19 in fact, fuck that 05:23:28 * ehird installs mingw 05:23:31 I know I'll be using mingw 05:31:48 "WoW... and at 7680x3200 res, maxed settings and 80FPS, there's hardly a more appropriate description to AMD's DX11 card..." 05:31:52 agl...flr... 05:31:58 upu...tumaoertjiojgioerjgodfisgjdfgoigosifjg 05:32:06 ashaiuwhuwihaiuhwhatTHEFUCKINGHELL 05:32:09 codansfods 05:32:09 that's some mega gpu 05:32:12 askdjlf lsakdg;ah;ah;we; a;djls 05:32:17 WHO NEEDS THAT 05:32:25 DUDE 05:32:27 PARALLEL COMPUTING 05:32:33 OPENCL 05:32:41 I AM PRACTICALLY COMPUTING AS I STAND HERE THINKING ABOUT IT 05:32:45 lol 05:32:54 http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/video/ATI/Eyefinity/eyefinity.jpg holy wow on a stick 05:33:14 like really 05:33:27 that big bar in the middle makes it all pointless 05:33:34 IN FACT, 05:33:47 It all just seems to work, which is arguably the most impressive part of it all. AMD has partnered up with at least one display manufacturer to sell displays with thinner bezels and without distracting LEDs on the front: 05:34:07 http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/video/ATI/Eyefinity/eyefinity2.jpg ;; what it'll look like 05:34:26 not bad, but STILL THERE's A FREAKING BAR IN THE MIDDLE OF MY SCREEN 05:34:27 "I played Dirt 2, a DX11 title at 7680 x 3200 and saw definitely playable frame rates. I played Left 4 Dead and the experience was much better. Obviously this new GPU is powerful, although I wouldn't expect it to run everything at super high frame rates at 7680 x 3200." 05:34:41 you could get 20fps on top settings on crysis at 1024x768, I bet! 05:34:48 coppro: sure :P 05:34:51 use a tiling wm 05:34:54 one window per screen 05:35:24 ugh, the mouse movement L( 05:35:25 :( 05:35:35 tiling wm 05:35:38 = you wouldn't be using a mouse 05:35:40 most of the time 05:36:18 coppro: also, it's good as long as your windows don't overlap screens 05:36:25 so... very GPU intensive spreadsheets 05:36:42 ehird: yes, you could do a 6-screen display, but really? 05:36:47 eh 05:36:48 in fact, 05:37:12 http://files.myopera.com/wiz/albums/781632/wiz-desktop1.jpg 05:37:18 from the silentpcreview forums 05:37:32 that huge slab of metal on wheels to the right is a TNN-500AF 05:37:43 which is a totally heatpipe, no-moving-parts CPU case/psu/etc 05:38:11 the guy uses it (it costs >$1,000 just for the case) + an SSD (= 0 moving parts computer) + 6 fucking monitors 05:41:34 coppro: holy fuck 05:41:36 imagine multiple projectors 05:41:37 shit 05:41:50 O_O 05:41:54 I want six fucking projectors and a circular room 05:42:00 that would be epic 05:42:08 epicly expensive! 05:42:15 can Xorg handle circular displays? 05:42:25 lol 05:42:33 just position the projectors right 05:42:43 the room won't be tiny, so it'll look fine at any given position 05:42:52 no, but I mean can xorg handle a screen that you can wrap your mouse all the way round on 05:42:56 *display 05:43:02 ah 05:43:07 that would be trivial 05:43:13 just add a hot thing to the left and right edges 05:43:16 to warp to the other edge 05:43:33 but then you couldn't stretch windows over, etc. 05:43:37 xinerama 05:43:43 ah, i see what you mean 05:43:43 eh 05:43:45 it'd be codable 05:43:55 could six projectors cover a decent-sized circular room, btw? 05:44:39 think so 05:44:49 man, imagine a 3d game designed for one of them 05:44:55 no need to swerve the mouse to look behind you 05:44:56 epic win :) 05:44:58 just... look behind you 05:45:14 oh man 05:45:18 i just had an idea 05:45:19 with a swivel chair hooked into the system 05:45:20 and it is a good idea 05:45:32 so you turn left, you /actually turn left/ 05:45:32 coppro: actually, a chair thing that straps you in and can go 360 degrees in any dimension 05:45:38 so you can rotate in any way 05:45:39 lol 05:45:40 then 05:45:45 little button things at the left and right sidse 05:45:53 so that when your hand or foot hits one 05:45:58 it uses a motor to rotate that way 05:46:03 based on the pressure you apply 05:46:22 mount a keyboard and mouse on it 05:46:34 also, add in a full surround sound setup 05:47:02 that would be awesome, but would you use a spherical screen? 05:47:09 projectors 05:47:10 remember 05:47:15 sure, spherical? 05:47:20 oh, i see 05:47:26 well, the world isn't spherical, so that would be useless 05:47:29 i mean 05:47:31 when you go outside 05:47:45 a circular room would be fine if it curved into the ceiling and floor 05:47:50 since the sky and ground are... basically flat. 05:47:52 (presumably you mount the projectors on the outer ring of the frame? 05:48:04 somewhere on the ceiling, yeah 05:48:11 same with the surround sound speakers 05:48:15 and, presumably, the hardware 05:48:22 ehird: I meant the frame that the chair is mounted to 05:48:26 ah 05:48:26 also, speakers in the walls 05:48:29 no 05:48:31 yes 05:48:32 you couldn't rotate that way 05:48:33 without lag 05:48:35 (the mounting to chair) 05:48:47 mount to the ceiling 05:48:53 so you can look normally 05:48:56 ehird: the chair has to have one fixed mount 05:49:04 and two gimbals 05:49:05 eh? 05:49:07 explain 05:49:11 coppro: also, speakers in the walls will be bad quality, the wall will muffle them 05:49:13 to get 360 degree rotation 05:49:24 ehird: there are speakers designed to use the surface as the wall to amplify the sound 05:49:30 interesting 05:49:36 anyway, ceiling and floor vision is kinda useless 05:49:41 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscope 05:49:45 i mean, okay, the floor makes it more immersive 05:49:49 but who looks up at the sky in a game? 05:49:52 just make it blue-ish 05:50:00 or whatever 05:50:00 you mount the projectors on the fixed frame 05:50:08 so they are in the middle of the room 05:50:13 hmm 05:50:14 alright 05:50:16 anyway 05:50:20 the chair doesn't really need 360 degree motion 05:50:24 yeah 05:50:24 it just needs to be strap-in 05:50:33 I think just rotation would be fine 05:50:34 an actual chair would just be awkward with all of this 05:50:39 coppro: by strap-in, you'd be vertical, ofc 05:50:51 ehird: oic 05:51:04 haha, lol, were you imagining doing a loop while sitting down 05:51:10 "FUCK. YOU. GRAVITY!" 05:51:16 "I'm going to sit upside down!" 05:51:26 ehird: with force-feedback points attached all over the body :D 05:51:33 now that may be going too far :P 05:51:39 ok, not all over 05:51:42 coppro: anyway, it's more awesome vertical as it means you can make the enemies real size 05:51:42 hmm 05:51:48 what about when the enemy gets right next to you 05:51:49 ? 05:51:51 it'd appear meters away 05:51:51 but like, on the arms and legs 05:51:57 (note: WE ARE NOT DOING 3D HOLOGRAMS) 05:51:57 ehird: 3d glasses obv 05:52:10 coppro: no, 05:52:10 why not? easy enough 05:52:17 coppro: 3d glasses make you lose colour 05:52:22 everything's gray and washed out 05:52:24 at least, red/blue ones 05:52:30 the shutter ones give you a headache, no? 05:52:31 ehird: not red-blue 05:52:39 polarization imo 05:52:39 what then 05:52:47 I've used shutter ones, not a big deal imo 05:53:01 The difficulty arises because light reflected from a motion picture screen tends to lose a bit of its polarization. However, this problem is eliminated if a 'silver' or Aluminized screen is used. This means that a pair of aligned DLP projectors, some polarizing filters, a silver screen, and a computer with a dual-head graphics card can be used to form a relatively low-cost (under US$10 000 in 2003) system for displaying stereosco 05:53:04 coppro: not immersive 05:53:08 anyway, what's the disadvantage 05:53:11 do polarizing ones blink too 05:53:19 ehird: no 05:53:25 and you don't notice the blink 05:53:27 after a little while 05:53:29 do they retain full colour and brightness? 05:53:46 ehird: probably not full brightness 05:54:18 but that can be dealt with easy 05:54:24 come to think of it, if an enemy's that close to you, you're fucked anyway :P 05:54:40 just make the screen wrap to the floor 05:54:52 "If you see someone lying down, YOU ARE ABOUT TO DIE" 05:55:19 but imagine you have like rubber-like cables attached to your arms, and they can be made more or less stretchy depending on the current applied to them 05:55:31 so you can get variable resistance 05:55:49 btw, what does this projection set up have that's better than a bunch of small screens in a circle mounted almost to fit your head? 05:55:51 we should patent this :P 05:56:02 apart from being less immersive and not letting things get close enough 05:56:16 ehird: more awesome? 05:56:17 (think Data, but mounted so you can turn around) 05:56:28 coppro: wtf, having a ring around your head that covers your whole vision is totally awesome :P 05:56:42 other people could watch? 05:56:51 true 05:56:55 except no 05:56:57 they'd block your vision 05:57:15 well yeah 05:57:58 anyway, the chair idea of this is definitely the most interesting part I thin 05:57:59 k 05:58:00 oh wait we're stupid 05:58:03 oh? 05:58:09 rear projection 05:58:35 how would that help 05:58:36 i don't get it 05:58:46 not having to mount them? 05:58:49 that's kinda minor 05:58:56 coppro: also, no 05:59:05 you can't get circular panels to rear project on 05:59:06 ehird: prevents the projectors from having to deal with objects in the room 05:59:14 ehird: so make them. 05:59:20 we have an infinite budget, but it can't be used on research 05:59:26 otherwise we can make anything that's physically possible 05:59:32 it's more fun to have that constraint 05:59:43 anyway 05:59:47 people will always block your vision 05:59:48 no matter what 05:59:52 I don't think rear-projection requires a special screen anyways 06:00:25 ehird: yes, but they won't block the projector's line of fire. People blocking vision = semi-realistic (not for objects at close distances, but it works for objects far away). Projector shadows = fail 06:00:41 if an enemy's coming at you at that angle... 06:00:49 btw, 3d holograms are totally awesome 06:00:52 so it's unrealistic, so it doesn't matter what happens then 06:00:54 coppro: *impractical 06:00:59 hmm, maybe the circular thing is cheating already 06:01:04 there aren't any games that let you look behind you like that 06:01:11 it's unecessary too 06:01:29 if we do 3d, we can make do with an easier geometry (hexagon) 06:01:46 ew ew ew 06:01:49 reality isn't hexagonal 06:01:51 but fwiw 06:01:51 http://www.simprojects.nl/multi_projector.htm 06:01:57 unsurprisingly, it's to run a flight simulator 06:02:10 every-fucking-thing that's about displays and is wildly excessive is about flight simulators 06:02:23 they're not even fun! 06:02:29 ehird: you can fake it with the 3d effect 06:02:37 coppro: not seamless, lame 06:02:40 you could just use screens 06:02:42 to do hexagonal 06:02:45 therefore BORING 06:02:47 ehird: why isn't it seamless? 06:02:53 because reality isn't circular 06:03:11 ehird: huh? 06:03:25 eh? 06:03:33 reality isn't circular meaning...? 06:03:53 imagine an fps 06:03:59 in a hexagonal room, it'd be boring 06:04:03 besides, you can do hexagonal with displays 06:04:06 so it's very boring 06:04:18 not at that size 06:04:34 who cares 06:04:37 hexagonal is the suck 06:07:37 http://www.simprojects.nl/diy_motion_platform_iii.htm 06:07:41 pitch, roll and raw computer setup 06:07:43 this guy is insane 06:07:48 coppro: btw, where would the computer go? 06:07:54 I assume the cables run above the chair into the ceiling 06:07:59 and the computer's there 06:08:06 floor seems better imo 06:08:14 true, but 06:08:19 think about it 06:08:23 how would that possibly work 06:08:35 computers are on the next floor down 06:08:50 why, as opposed to the ceiling? 06:09:01 because you are probably attaching stuff to the floor already 06:09:14 easier to anchor to the floor than the ceiling 06:09:28 you don't need an anchor 06:09:40 if you want motors to power anything you do 06:09:58 Depends on the projector lenses (standard focal lengths would be too long), and the optics involved. With correct optics, you could have each projector only have a 23" image on a screen. Theoretically you could even project such an image onto a cylindrical or hemispherical surface like a personal IMAX assuming you had the correct lenses and such. 06:09:59 -reddit 06:10:05 http://videoscreens.net/curved%20screens.htm 06:10:08 -reddit 06:10:42 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out). 06:19:19 grr 06:19:27 .NET can only interop with .dlls, I think 06:21:40 then compile a DLL version of your... oh wait, DLLs require special code 06:22:01 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:25:31 coppro: no, it's just that I want a single-file solution 06:25:47 well, rather, reader + docs if any + plugin 06:25:59 for simplicity 06:26:02 ah 06:26:03 I'll probably use WTL, then 06:26:17 no way to combine the .NET and non-.NET code into one DLL? 06:26:21 It shouldn't be too much of a pain for a simple UI- oh, hm, I just realised something 06:26:35 I can't use WinForms easily anyway, because netscape plugins are C/C++ 06:26:48 I mean, I could call into the .NET gui from the plugin 06:26:48 but ew 06:26:50 it'd be a pain 06:26:55 coppro: that'd still be .dll + .exe 06:27:00 but I'll just use WTL or whatever 06:27:24 * ehird looks at the notepad2 source code 06:27:27 might be an inspiration 06:27:38 also, I can't use stock MinGW, I think 06:27:45 it doesn't do 64-bit binaries :( 06:28:30 * coppro wonders how difficult building an Okular plugin for firefox would be 06:28:39 not for firefox 06:28:43 for the netscape plugin api 06:28:50 (firefox has no separate plugin mechanism) 06:29:03 then it'll work with firefox, safari, chrome, ... I think Opera too 06:29:28 well, yeah 06:29:51 but yeah, I'm really just trying to make something as good as OS X's Preview standalone and Safari's PDF in the browser for Windows 06:30:12 -!- bsmntbombdood_ has changed nick to bsmntbombdood. 06:30:32 Safari's PDF is wonderfully simple; it's just the PDF, there, you can use Safari's regular zoom controls and the only UI is, if you hover near the bottom, a semi-transparent black HUD-type thing with a view outline icons fades in 06:30:51 it's just two buttons for zoom in/zoom out, an "open in Preview" button, and a download button 06:31:14 ah, nice 06:31:36 and the whole PDF is rendered instantly, all at once 06:31:58 an awesome thing Snow Leopard added is, if a PDF is formatted into columns, it (presumably using a heuristic), when selecting, just uses that column 06:32:01 as opposed to going over the others 06:32:10 * coppro is not sure if he prefers rendering the whole thing or not 06:32:14 = you can finally copy from those &*^#$*&& two-column LaTeX papers 06:32:22 coppro: when it's instant, it's obviously better 06:32:32 ehird: instant entire document is not always an option 06:32:41 try safari then tell me that :) 06:32:50 (on OS X) 06:33:06 it's only ever slow when "converting" (executing) one of those silly computing postscript programs 06:33:14 ehird: I'll believe it can do most documents pretty fast. I would be exceedingly surprised if it could render the C++0x draft standard in under a second 06:33:22 link 06:33:34 i'd have to reboot, but I can give you a pretty good guess 06:33:42 it's 2k+ pages 06:34:03 oh wait, I'm exaggerating 06:34:05 link 06:34:06 1300 06:34:13 http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2009/n2914.pdf 06:34:38 also, have you ever come across one of those .dvis converted to pdf? 06:34:44 always with the uber-smudgy, uncopiable text 06:35:28 ehird: depends on the converter 06:35:37 the one that comes with Ubuntu's TeX does it right 06:35:42 yes, but have you come across one like that? 06:35:48 especially from ACM sites 06:35:59 coppro: I estimate Safari would render that in about four-five seconds 06:36:04 I've come cross them 06:36:08 if you have a slow computer and it's a bad day, maybe 7-8, tops 06:36:11 the worst though are MS word ones 06:36:14 ehird: ok 06:36:15 and it pops up a little discreet progress bar while rendering 06:36:23 so I don't think it's really a problem 06:36:36 coppro: anyway, I have an insane planned fix for that 06:36:52 recognize lines and their thickness in it (sort of like what captcha-breaking software does) 06:36:52 then 06:37:00 convert this to a vector image, except 06:37:05 if there's just really minor variation in the thickness 06:37:08 normalise it to one value 06:37:15 then render it at any size 06:37:21 voila, smudgy text becomes scalable 06:37:22 the problem with whole-document rendering is the memory a big document will take up 06:37:34 how much ram have you got? 06:37:48 lots, sure 06:37:52 but it can be a problem 06:38:05 how many copies of the c++0x standard do you open a day? 06:38:12 ehird: quite often, actually 06:38:15 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 06:38:17 how many at once, I mean 06:38:22 oh, one 06:38:44 coppro: c++0x, the file, is 9mb 06:38:56 I'll try and get sumatra to render it all 06:39:15 sumatra? 06:39:20 oh right ok 06:39:26 lightweight windows pdf reader 06:39:55 coppro: groan @ the first page warning on c++0x 06:40:54 sumatra, it seems, won't render it all at once 06:41:18 but really, at the very maximum, say adobe reader 11.72 or something, I bet that c++0x fully rendered, plus all the application baggage, cannot possibly be more than 400MB 06:41:27 pretty big 06:41:29 for a lightweight reader, say 100MB 06:41:50 especially for my system, with little real ram and too much swap 06:41:54 you almost certainly have 2-4GB of ram, and it's a very unusually large document; is a hundred meg or two unacceptable? 06:42:05 (new computer has more ram, yay) 06:42:32 I mean, I just don't see a situation on any sort of modern computer where you must open C++0x all the time and yet never have 200MB of RAM free 06:42:35 in any case, I'm not really trying to defend anything, so it's a pointless debate 06:42:41 :P 06:42:56 one thing you can do when rendering all at once is display pages as they render 06:43:04 that way, a pdf always opens instantly when you click 06:43:11 but RAM is seriously the limiting factor of speed on this thing 06:43:14 (apart from download time, but again you can do it incrementally) 06:43:20 coppro: how much has it got? what computer is it? 06:43:20 i has a ram 06:43:26 bsmntbombdood: yes, 12gb of it 06:43:27 THANKS TO ME 06:43:28 :P 06:44:04 ehird: it's an old Dell latitude. I forget how much it actually has on sticks, but it's small enough that swapping kills performance when large amounts of ram are gobbled up 06:44:18 uh, free -mh 06:44:19 granted, a link is special because it needs access to all that RAM at once 06:44:26 takes two seconds to find out how much ram you have :P 06:44:31 1G 06:44:36 ow 06:44:42 yepper 06:44:58 I had 1GB in here until december 08, actually 06:45:02 2.5 is noticably snappier 06:45:07 new computer has 3 06:45:12 coppro: mistake 06:45:14 you should have gone for 4 06:45:20 imo 06:45:25 meh 06:45:28 3 isn't much better than 2 06:45:30 but 4 is a lot better 06:45:31 price was a concern 06:45:36 ehird: why? 06:45:39 3 vs 4 is like $10 06:45:42 coppro: don't ask me 06:45:56 ehird: nope :( 06:46:24 how much 06:46:56 forget 06:46:58 not cheap though 06:47:14 anyway, the other big thing is a non-ATI graphics card 06:47:25 good thing or bad thing 06:47:26 what do you mean 06:47:29 good thing 06:47:32 wait, wait 06:47:33 ATI linux drivers = the stains 06:47:38 coppro: are you replacing an ATI card in your current machine 06:47:42 mooooooooooooooooo 06:47:42 with an intel one in your new one? 06:47:43 ehird: no, new machine 06:47:49 eh? 06:47:55 your current machine has ATI 06:47:56 correct? 06:48:00 yes 06:48:01 your new machine has intel 06:48:02 correct? 06:48:03 yes 06:48:06 coppro: LOLOLOLOLOLOLO 06:48:10 the intel drivers for linux suck shit 06:48:11 I don't want a high-power card 06:48:16 you can't even do stuff full screen 06:48:20 that xkcd about full screen flash wasn't a joke 06:48:33 dammit really? I thought... dammit 06:48:43 :( 06:48:47 it's getting better, but... you just downgraded as far as linux is concerned 06:48:49 give it a few months :\ 06:48:55 it can't be much worse than ATI 06:49:04 ATI drivers are pretty good these days... 06:49:07 ha 06:49:30 I wish 06:49:30 I know this because I have an ATI card in this machine and it's always worked absolutely perfectly and fast with linux. :P 06:49:37 well this one has not 06:49:43 right, 'cuz it's old :P 06:49:57 OSS driver hates me, and... well.. FGLRX 06:50:04 what about fglrx 06:50:08 has always worked for me 06:50:14 random crashes 06:50:19 huh 06:50:21 freezes, actually 06:50:34 hmm, it seems that notepad2 is built with visual studio 06:50:46 well, visual c++ 7 06:50:47 at least 06:50:54 probably *coded* with notepad2 06:50:56 whenever I try to do anything more graphics-intensive than, say, glxgears 06:51:12 your new intel card will solve that, nothing more intensive will run :-P 06:51:19 lol 06:51:21 i'm teasing, it isn't _that_ bad 06:51:22 oh well 06:51:31 just in limbo atm 06:51:35 yeah, I suspect not 06:51:44 although full screen youtube is still a no-no 06:51:53 which is probably a good thing for your IQ 06:52:00 indeed 06:52:08 the only stuff I use youtube for is music 06:52:14 anyway, the discrete graphics versions cost more and you can't get base configurations (so they're higher apart from the card) 06:52:16 and there's no need for full screen or even a screen at all 06:52:23 plus they're heavier, and have less battery life while on the card 06:52:30 so you probably made the right choice 06:52:32 yeah 06:53:03 though hybrid graphics sound appealing (I somehow suspect Linux doesn't have support for that though) 06:53:45 * ehird tries to find a T60p review that has the 14" model 06:54:57 I give up :P 06:55:10 the T43 is prettier than the T60, but I need my dual core : 06:55:11 :( 06:55:20 also, more than 2GB of RAM. 06:56:04 wtf is t60 06:56:21 you know what else I've discovered about Linux and bad drivers? 06:56:30 Linux can't suspend to USB 06:56:31 bsmntbombdood: thinkpad 06:56:32 model 06:56:34 old one 06:56:40 coppro: ...so? :P 06:56:51 ehird: my current hard drive is USB 06:56:59 jesus fucking christ 06:57:03 the speed 06:57:04 oh god 06:57:11 i must confiscate that laptop immediately 06:57:14 you are no longer allowed to use it 06:57:48 tbh, the speed isn't much different 06:57:55 no, it is 06:57:58 no, it's not 06:58:01 USB has awful speed and awful latency 06:58:06 you mean the actual speed of operations 06:58:07 not the raw speed 06:58:12 and that's just because HDs are the bottleneck anyway 06:58:21 and that's why my notebook will be blessed with an SSD! 06:58:34 ...hopefully. 06:58:37 actual speed of usb sucks 06:58:43 usb2 is what, 60mb/s 06:58:47 bsmntbombdood: "operations" 06:58:48 as in 06:58:49 tasks 06:58:49 doing stuff 06:58:51 on the computer 06:58:57 i mean, raw speed 06:59:05 right 06:59:25 but latency is what matters 06:59:41 it's a temporary solution and it's not worth my pry apart this drive and put this on the internal mount 06:59:47 and I don't really notice a problem 07:00:21 at least every app you have is a portable app :P 07:00:27 chroot /media/usb 07:00:43 * coppro wonders what my school would do if I booted off this 07:00:51 (on a school computer) 07:01:05 freak at the error screen because you don't have the drivers 07:01:29 it has them :) 07:01:49 freak at the desktop and tell you to put it back 07:02:04 suspension methinks 07:02:27 some school you go to 07:05:45 brb 07:05:50 well, bbl 07:05:52 public school board (: 07:05:53 :( 07:14:01 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:16:14 -!- coppro has joined. 07:17:10 why is video game music so awesome? 07:31:08 -!- coppro has quit ("The only thing I know is that I know nothing"). 07:37:44 -!- ehird has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds). 07:42:53 -!- GreaseMonkey has quit ("HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.org <- Nobody cares enough to cybersquat it"). 07:45:35 -!- ehird has joined. 07:58:10 -!- comex has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:12:35 ouch. notepad2 is totally c apart from a c++ file to wrap scintilla 08:12:38 no way am i reading win32 code 08:12:51 it even seems it constructs the gui in code 08:20:25 an argument for rendering pdfs all in one go: search is quicker 08:22:41 right, I'm going to use MinGW, C/C++ and... something for the gui 08:36:09 wait, not mingw 08:36:23 http://www.drangon.org/mingw/ 08:36:29 since it has x64 08:36:40 actually you know what, i don't give a shit about making an x64 binary 08:36:43 it's a fucking pdf reader 08:37:35 "Oh joy, you do not have c:/MinGW/bin/make.exe. Keep it that way." --MSYS postinstall 08:59:53 -!- oerjan has joined. 09:01:40 Hi oerjan . 09:01:43 *oerjan. 09:01:56 hi ehird . 09:03:20 "Evil is a library that tries to implement for Windows some Unix function that do not exist on the evil Microsoft platform." // damn that's some mature naming scheme 09:21:46 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 09:25:00 -!- pikhq_ has quit (Client Quit). 09:29:16 -!- pikhq_ has joined. 09:30:04 -!- pikhq has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:30:22 -!- ehird has quit ("Page closed"). 09:30:43 -!- ehird has joined. 09:31:01 test 09:32:44 ok, chatzilla seems acceptable like this 09:37:50 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 09:38:29 -!- oerjan has quit ("Lost terminal"). 09:38:35 -!- ehird has quit ("gnop"). 09:41:28 -!- ehird has joined. 09:41:58 alright, if I can get messages highlighting me to not show up in the server tab I'll be perfectly happ 09:42:01 y 09:42:02 s/\ny/y/ 09:43:08 ^echo ehird 09:43:09 ehird ehird 09:43:14 ^echo ehird 09:43:14 ehird ehird 09:43:23 yay, that works 09:45:21 chatzilla users: rheet 09:45:24 an interesting feature... 09:47:01 -!- ehird has quit ("gnop"). 09:52:30 -!- ehird has joined. 09:52:42 test ;) 09:52:44 oh, I disabled that earlier 09:52:47 still only one thing to fix... 09:53:14 ah, an easy preference change 09:53:18 wundervoll 09:53:24 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit). 09:53:52 -!- ehird has joined. 09:54:07 hullo 09:54:40 * ehird tentatively tries Pidgin and sighs as he can't find a good damn Im client 09:54:42 *IM 09:58:08 oh great, gtk menus on windows are... wait for it... non-native-behaving 09:58:24 i want a button that sodomises everyone who tries to fake native widgets repeatedly 09:58:42 Is this your first time using Windows or something? :-P 09:58:51 it happens on OS X too 09:58:57 it just irritates me every single time 09:59:03 because I know someone spent hours on that 09:59:08 and they failed, terribly 09:59:25 but seriously, the pidgin menus look like windows classic's 09:59:29 the menu contents that is 09:59:52 the menu looks like a regular win7 menu, except with more vertical padding and instead of an indent, the items get a blue background 10:01:08 "Hide new IM conversations: [ Never | When Away | Always ] 10:01:12 [ ] Minimize new conversation windows" 10:01:22 What the flying fuck is the difference.......... 10:02:04 Fuck this, it's clear every pidgin developer uses windows 2000 or something 10:02:11 That is every pidgin developer that uses windows 10:02:13 Which is -1 10:03:38 All this fuss and in the end the only extra programs I have so far are Microsoft Security Essentials, Google Chrome, Flash, Sumatra PDF, and ChatZilla 10:03:45 Because all the others suck. 10:03:48 :P 10:03:59 See, that's the nice thing about a platform nobody uses 10:04:06 There's far less software, and so far less sucking software 10:11:08 Deewiant: you wouldn't happen to know of an unarchiver that doesn't try and be a file manager, would you? 10:11:11 even 7zip does that crap 10:11:59 Does it matter? You don't have to use it as a file manager 10:13:33 Deewiant: It's kind of annoying viewing files in Explorer one second and then using 7zip's crap file interface the next 10:14:00 I wonder if it's really hard to hook into Explorer or something; seems like there'd be something like the built-in "compressed folders" for multiple formats. 10:17:38 Just use the shell extension and right-click -> extract here, or whatever 10:17:52 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 10:18:11 That's not actually anything like compressed folders; you can dig in them without extracting. 10:18:36 Yes, I know, but it saves you from the "crap file interface" at least. 10:18:38 It's marginally better than clicking extract in the 7zip file manager, but annoying because you can't view the contents without extracting. 10:18:44 Deewiant: Snap 10:18:47 Sort of 10:19:39 morning 10:20:00 I see I was highlighted by ehird. Interesting. 10:20:06 * AnMaster reads scrollback 10:20:10 How unusual! 10:20:19 I don't even remember what it was for; now I get to read it too! 10:20:20 "Exciting" 10:20:42 AnMaster: yo, M_PI is non-standard. <-- hm. Will have to check that. 10:21:03 AnMaster: Yeah. 10:21:21 AnMaster: I got cfunge almost linking with Cygwin. 10:21:35 ehird, nop, it is in POSIX, just checked 10:21:43 part of XSI however 10:21:49 Well, it at least isn't in Cygwin 10:22:00 I needed only a few changes to get it to compile but not link, btw. 10:22:11 I tried to get cfunge to work on Cygwin and IIRC didn't succeed. 10:22:13 Can't remember why. 10:22:21 Linking problem was that PE has no visibility stuff, and so every "static" was ignored, which caused SCKE and SOCK to both have two functions from winsock stuff. 10:22:36 ehird, about the winsock thing: I have no fucking clue either. All I use are some standard functions for converting between system-endianness and network-endianness 10:22:47 Yes, those were what were both defined 10:22:48 those htons ones I mean 10:22:57 I guess they're defined in the header file, for some perverse reason 10:23:02 Not sure how to fix that, the rest is pretty trivial though 10:23:17 ehird, on glibc they are defined as inline asm if gcc is used iirc. :D 10:23:28 otherwise using functions 10:23:31 There's a drop-in getaddrinfo implementation that you can just #include and link to, and you have to define M_PI 10:23:34 I think that's it 10:23:37 ehird, but weren't they static inline? 10:23:39 that should solve it 10:23:46 10:22Linking problem was that PE has no visibility stuff, and so every "static" was ignored, which caused SCKE and SOCK to both have two functions from winsock stuff. 10:23:58 ehird, what about environ? 10:24:07 I'm not sure how it works on non-cygwin. I was using gcc 4, which I guess isn't very maintained on cygwin. 10:24:11 Cygwin provides. 10:24:16 Deewiant, ah right 10:24:25 AnMaster: Also, the ccmake was ludicrously slow; spawning processes really is expensive. 10:24:33 ehird, aren't there already other duplicate name, different files stuff? 10:24:33 Like, it took about 7 seconds to get to 18%. 10:24:41 AnMaster: Like what? 10:24:49 ehird: That's better than autotools 10:24:51 ehird, cmake here it takes like 5 seconds in total 10:24:55 ./configure --help is typically about 20 seconds 10:25:05 A complete ./configure, about 20 minutes. 10:25:09 Deewiant: Yeah, I tried the ./configure included with the getaddrinfo; took like a minute to finish 10:25:15 AnMaster: What do you mean about duplicate name? 10:25:18 Oh, I see 10:25:19 Nope 10:25:22 Sheer luck there 10:25:32 heh, I shall have to include that then ;P 10:25:34 But anyway, it's slow because process spawning is slow on Windows. 10:25:42 Deewiant, configure is slow even on linux..., often a minute or so 10:25:52 ehird, yep 10:26:00 AnMaster: I might write a patch or a few to get it working on Cygwin if I can be bothered and you'll commit them 10:26:01 ehird, about _Exit vs. _exit 10:26:07 not that I want to use cygwin or anything 10:26:11 ehird, the former is C99, the latter is POSIX 10:26:16 Rule of thumb: on Windows it's about 50-100 times slower than on Linux 10:26:17 iirc 10:26:19 Yes, well, Cygwin doesn't have the former 10:26:29 If a ./configure takes a minute on Linux, it'll take an hour on Windows. 10:26:36 ehird, just telling you that _Exit is *in theory* more portable ;P 10:26:41 There's probably some sort of KillWithExtremePrejudiceExExEx. 10:27:00 Deewiant, well, think about ./configure for GCC, LLVM, Apache or some other huge project 10:27:02 AnMaster: Anyway, would you commit said patches? 10:27:28 ehird: Just _exit. 10:27:37 Deewiant: Yes, that's what I replaced it with 10:27:44 ehird, depends, I'll have to review them, And the _Exit() vs. _exit() in general would make it less portable, I might however add a cmake test and fall back on the other or such 10:27:49 AnMaster: Yes, I was talking about average-sized projects. 10:27:58 AnMaster: Of course, I'd add cmake tests for everything 10:28:09 ehird, what about mmap()? 10:28:13 It'd just be a few different lines of code, and some extra source files in lib/ 10:28:14 For those, you'll indeed have to ./configure for an hour. 10:28:16 AnMaster: Cygwin provides that, obviously 10:28:16 also, make sure it actually works for mycology 10:28:23 I will, once the damn thing links 10:28:39 ehird, what would the stuff in lib be? 10:28:42 I could just use CCBI, but it's more fun to subvert the "WINDOWS COULD NEVER POSSIBLY SUPPORT POSIX HARD ENOUGH" 10:28:48 They also tend to have sub-projects wherein make invokes configure and >_< 10:28:58 AnMaster: The implementation of getaddrinfo, which Cygwin inexplicably doesn't have. 10:29:10 It's BSD-licensed or somesuch, so no worries linking the .o. 10:29:19 mhm 10:29:32 How much does cfunge fork()? 10:29:52 How much do you think if it's performance-optimized to the point of ludicrousness? :-P 10:29:58 ehird, only in PERL fingerprint 10:30:03 fork()'s cheap on unix 10:30:06 AnMaster: That should be fine then. 10:30:13 It's still relatively expensive 10:30:15 Also, I just want to say one thing about Cygwin. 10:30:27 SETUP.EXE HAS THE WORST POSSIBLE PACKAGE MANAGING UI OUT OF ALL POSSIBLE UIS FOR THAT PURPOSE 10:30:28 ehird, in PERL fingerprint it does weird stuff with pipes and file descriptors btw 10:30:31 IN THE MULTIVERSE 10:30:35 Thank you. 10:30:45 You exaggerate too much 10:30:46 AnMaster: Cygwin should handle it. 10:30:49 I find it usable enough 10:30:52 Deewiant: No, seriously, that thing is fucking awful 10:30:57 SETUP.EXE HAS THE WORST POSSIBLE PACKAGE MANAGING UI OUT OF ALL POSSIBLE UIS FOR THAT PURPOSE <-- so it is still as bad as back when I used it a few years ago then. heh 10:31:06 Apparently "setup.exe -q -P pkg1,pkg2" should install stuff, but it doesn't 10:31:14 It has a CLI? 10:31:18 AnMaster: It'd also be nice if the programs were newer than 34573485735 years old 10:31:19 I didn't even know that 10:31:28 I didn't know about the CLI either 10:31:32 Deewiant: Not officially, it's still experimental and we won't document it and if you use it we will kill you 10:31:36 Note: The above sentiment was expressed on the mailing list 10:31:38 in 10:31:40 wait for it 10:31:42 2003 10:31:45 Cygwin is fucking dead 10:32:00 Fairly slow-going, yes 10:32:11 ehird, not odd... windows + cygwin works worse than linux + wine 10:32:24 But the only other thing providing fork() and mmap() shit is MSYS, which is just a fork of an ancient cygwin and only supports gcc 2 or something to compile MSYS executables and is only aimed at using as a shell/utils. 10:32:36 Yep. 10:32:52 It'd be quite easy to add fork() to the Windows kernel, wouldn't it? 10:32:53 ehird, what about Microsoft's own POSIX implementation thingy 10:32:58 I mean, a process is just a structure in memory. 10:33:02 AnMaster: Interix? That thing's ancient, innit? 10:33:09 No, innot. 10:33:25 "GCC 3.3 compiler, includes and libraries" 10:33:29 Yes it is 10:33:30 Deewiant, hey you aren't oerjan 10:33:41 Hey no shit 10:33:43 That wasn't a pun 10:33:47 ehird, hm, I only tested cfunge on gcc 3.4 and later 10:33:54 ehird, oh? ok 10:34:16 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:34:36 I'd just like to take the time to endorse some non-Cygwin software that I haven't used for anything yet but must be better than Cygwin because anything is: Xming, MinGW, GnuWin32 (http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/) 10:34:59 Alternative to last one: MSYS (it's okay because you can't add packages or anything.) 10:35:19 ehird, that DOS one? 10:35:21 what was the name 10:35:29 DJGPP. It doesn't do fork() or anything. 10:35:35 well, true 10:35:36 But it's for DOS, and meh. 10:35:37 Just use MinGW. 10:35:53 You can get GCC 4.2 on Interix from http://debian-interix.net/ 10:35:56 MinGW doesn't provide fork() 10:36:03 wait a sec 10:36:12 debian... interix? 10:36:18 AnMaster: No, MinGW doesn't provide any sort of POSIX API 10:36:20 *shudder* 10:36:20 Windows does, though 10:36:47 MinGW is just a compiler 10:36:50 It happens to be gcc 10:36:57 It's also free Windows headers 10:36:58 ehird, what CFLAGS are you using? 10:37:06 It compiles Windows executables with the Windows libraries, which include libc and some POSIX stuff 10:37:10 It includes headers for these libaries 10:37:13 That's it 10:37:17 AnMaster: The release ones 10:37:24 I'll install cygwin again and try and make this crap work 10:37:33 Or maybe not. 10:37:40 Oh, and a separate gcc-4.2 from http://www.suacommunity.com/ 10:37:44 ehird, hm. Don't remember if that includes -O3. Try -O3, because possibly that will make gcc inline that htons() stuff, which will prevent those functions from being emitted at all 10:37:49 which will make it linjk 10:37:50 I basically know what to do, but don't know how to fix the SCKE/SOCK problem. 10:37:50 link* 10:37:54 this is just a wild guess 10:38:15 AnMaster: I could just #define static inline before including sockets :-P 10:38:26 ehird, oh so they are static but not inline? 10:38:36 I guess so 10:38:41 also I'm sure that would break stuff in cfunge. 10:38:41 I mean, they go in the final .o 10:38:43 Obviously 10:38:57 ehird, becuase iirc SOCK and SCKE includes some static variables 10:39:03 and inline variable makes no sense 10:39:07 I'd #undef static afterwards, duh 10:39:11 hm 10:39:15 Also, we could totally make inline variables make sense. 10:39:25 ehird, yeah by #define inline static :P 10:39:40 They are inlined at their first use, and assigning to them modifies the machine code in that function 10:39:43 To have the different value 10:39:58 They're accessed from inside that function's machine code too 10:40:33 You could inline them at every use, and made assignment modify all the use locations. 10:40:38 ehird, you would need to determine first use at runtime 10:40:47 In source file 10:40:52 fizzie: Oh, that's much better 10:41:02 fizzie++ 10:41:10 fizzie, yep, makes more sense 10:41:19 * ehird downloads PuTTY, because it'll surely come in handy later. 10:41:20 It would be nice to have "x=5" expand to 200 code self-modifications. 10:41:33 fizzie: totally 10:41:41 oh man, that'd be great 10:41:55 ehird, I assume this will be one diff for each separate fix, rather than some huge mixed up diff? 10:42:19 I assume you assume incorrectly 10:42:30 AnMaster: Does bzr work on Windows? 10:42:35 Yes. 10:42:41 think so yes 10:42:46 Practically all VCSs do. 10:42:47 I'll just make bzr commits then 10:42:55 fizzie, hey, it would even be useful in some cases, like when a variable is assigned very seldom, but read a lot 10:43:12 like allocating a block depending on command line options or so 10:43:14 Yes, because memory reads are so expensive :-P 10:43:30 ehird, nah, but you can save a few clock cycles on it 10:43:37 You'd lose more time combined changing 1000 parts of memory 10:43:51 -!- adam_d has joined. 10:44:03 ehird, oh btw, is this 64-bit windows? 10:44:13 wait, cygwin wouldn't be 10:44:14 Yes, but Cygwin is 32-bit afaik. 10:44:17 right 10:44:35 All the programs I've installed are 32-bit :P 10:44:42 Including the antivirus... 10:45:01 (Which is some beta from Microsoft that I had to get from softpedia or something because apparently my country isn't invited) 10:45:19 XD 10:45:29 microsoft made an antivirus? 10:45:32 But it uses barely any megs and if it breaks I can blame microsoft 10:45:41 Microsoft Security Essentials 10:45:43 It seems decent 10:45:47 It also does antimalware and stuff 10:46:02 heh 10:46:11 Is that the former Windows Defender? 10:46:13 "Inline variables" like that aren't especially uncommon in hand-crafted assembly, for example in cases where you have some sort of configurable behaviour in a loop; it's cheaper to have a constant jmp instruction, whose operand is modified, than a separate variable with a load + indirect-jump in the loop. 10:46:25 Deewiant: it uses the same definitions and everything 10:47:14 fizzie, indeed 10:47:22 fizzie: Depends. The Intel manuals warn against modifying code within 1KB (IIRC) of the modifying code 10:47:53 Deewiant: I think it's more an extended Windows Defender for, you know, extended purposes. 10:47:58 If you have sufficiently few iterations it may be cheaper to do the load and allow the branch predictor to handle the jump 10:48:22 Deewiant: Yes, well, modern architectures are confusing. I was talking more about 6502 and z80 assembly, where you can just count cycles, and everything's very obvious. 10:48:47 ehird, is there any predefined define to see if you run under cygwin btw? 10:48:51 Yes; if your CPU is just a blind interpreter then sure, that's faster :-) 10:48:59 AnMaster: #ifdef __GNU__ :-P 10:49:12 AnMaster: __CYGWIN__ 10:49:14 ehird, that makes no sense 10:49:15 or that 10:49:16 Deewiant, ah right 10:49:17 *Or that 10:49:25 Eh, since you're talking about it I'll do it 10:49:38 ehird, do what? 10:49:49 Patch up cfunge 10:49:54 Anyone know of a lightweight programming editor for windows with a file tree list sidebar thingy? 10:50:06 ehird, well, make sure it actually works first ;P 10:50:06 Just to hack this up as opposed to futzing with WordPad (which now looks like Word) and Explorer. 10:50:15 I hope you manage to solve it 10:50:17 Of course it won't, out of the box 10:50:19 I'll have to patch it 10:50:21 You know 10:50:22 well yes 10:50:22 Code 10:50:30 ehird, I was talking about the SOCK stuff 10:50:34 Ah 10:50:57 AnMaster: is it okay if I make it do dirty, dirty things if it's conditioned to only do it on cygwin? 10:51:07 Like compiling SOCK and SCKE in one go to the same .o, say... 10:51:23 ehird, how the hell would you do that under cmake? 10:51:35 No bloody idea. 10:51:52 I added the getaddrinfo object file as a "linker option" and commented out the checks for it; that's how build-system hostile I've been :-P 10:52:04 blergh 10:52:04 Also, I almost gave up when I realised I'd have to install cmake. :-P 10:52:20 ehird, just add it conditionally to the cfunge sources 10:52:35 Probably for the best, yes 10:52:38 It needs a define, though 10:52:41 AnMaster: Doesn't that violate gpl3? 10:52:42 ehird, you *could* run gcc manually. I've done it on an openbsd box once 10:52:53 ehird, isn't bsd GPL compatible? 10:53:04 Yes, but your GPL code will try and infect the BSD code 10:53:08 Because it's evil 10:53:13 I think, at least 10:53:24 I'm not entirely sure how the viral stuff works because it's an incredibly ill-defined concept. 10:53:34 well, in the linked result it will be GPL, but not in the source file? 10:53:42 at least I think so 10:53:57 Who knows :P 10:54:16 AnMaster: btw, I was doing it on cfunge 0.9.0 10:54:19 how outdated is that? 10:54:21 *How 10:54:50 ehird, hm last release. let me check how many revisions ago 10:55:08 Also, I'm going to bemuse the ChatZilla users who aren't ChatZilla in-the-know kind of people some more: rheet rheet rheet 10:55:14 ehird, just a few revisions ago, and the stuff after was pretty minor changes 10:55:19 That includes me 10:55:23 some typo fixes in comments and such 10:55:34 AnMaster: Let's hope the cygwin bzr is new enough 10:55:39 I'm goin' in 10:55:43 ehird, what version 10:55:48 No idea 10:55:50 I'm about to download setup.exe 10:55:55 bzr --version 10:56:02 ah ok, not installed yet 10:56:37 I'll use gcc 3 this time 10:57:07 ehird, bzr 0.92 or later is absolutely required due to repo file format. But I would definitely recommend something more like 1.6 or later 10:57:13 * AnMaster is using 1.17 10:57:37 Is 1.17 okay? 10:57:39 Ah 10:57:55 That's surprisingly recent for cygwin :P 10:58:01 It also has gcc 4.3 on the 4 package 10:58:04 indeed, I think 1.18 is out now though 10:58:22 yep 1.18 is out now 10:58:33 Alright, as they say in the vernacular, let's do this shit 10:58:39 XD 10:58:55 Installing cygwin, will then bzr myself some cfunge and sit bemused at bzr's interface 10:59:07 That is as far as I have planned 10:59:09 * AnMaster wonders what is the probability of ehird publishing it as a launchpad branch 10:59:17 Approximately -2 10:59:27 Out of 1, naturally 10:59:49 ehird, about copyright, I wonder if I should do like fsf here ;P 11:00:06 I guess if 0 is "certain that it won't happen", -1 is "certain that its negative will happen". 11:00:15 Then 2 is... certain it will happen... twice 11:00:16 ? 11:00:19 s/\n\?/?/ 11:00:21 :P 11:00:30 AnMaster: I don't think I can agree to contracts 11:00:32 being a minor 11:00:36 ehird, oh damn 11:00:45 Guess I can't contribute then! 11:01:00 well I guess you can. I just wonder... 11:01:32 ...if you or me will be most irritated by you being listed in CREDITS ;P 11:02:17 ehird, ^ 11:02:21 :P 11:02:30 Just spell my name Elliot and ensure that I stay more annoyed 11:02:35 (Note: DO NOT DO THIS) 11:02:41 ehird, isn't it Eliot Hird? 11:02:52 or do I misremember? 11:02:52 No, that's too incorrect to annoy me, somehow 11:03:01 ehird, ah it is Elliot Hird then? 11:03:13 ehird, or was it Elliot Hurd? 11:03:16 Sure, AnMaster. Whatever you say. 11:03:30 I hear it's Ellio Turd. 11:03:36 heh 11:04:06 jul 19 22:24:43 Defining Features of the Welsh, by Elliott Hird 11:04:11 found the correct spelling in logs 11:04:14 there we go 11:04:35 Wait, you were joking, right? 11:04:46 ehird, about? 11:04:50 Not knowing my name 11:04:55 Also, I wonder what the heck the context was there 11:04:57 * ehird checks 11:05:22 Oh, sex with sheep 11:05:23 The usual 11:05:25 Also lack of vowels 11:05:30 Common staples of #esoteric both 11:05:40 Or is it stables? I don't actually know 11:06:09 ehird, well I know it in general, but not the exact spelling. If you had a normal name like Ekblom or Svensson or Östergren it would have been easier :P 11:06:28 my name is actually ingvar kamprad 11:06:29 true story 11:06:40 kamprad isn't very common in Sweden either. 11:07:27 people usually just call me random swedish words in all-capitals though. 11:07:29 ehird, Especially "Svensson" is the Swedish equivalent of "Smith" 11:07:56 AnMaster: what's the command to grab myself some latest cfunge? 11:08:16 ehird, hm lets see.. 11:08:31 good news: gcc 3 here seems to not warn on static 11:08:41 so the SCKE/SOCK problem might not exist! 11:08:49 ehird, bzr branch lp:cfunge 11:08:50 I think 11:09:12 since I changed to use launchpad nowdays 11:09:25 Creepy vendor support there :-P 11:09:39 Yep, that seems to be working 11:09:46 ehird, question of not having my own server any more, and if I should go for launchpad of sf.net 11:09:48 ;P 11:10:05 *or 11:10:07 Sorry. 11:10:09 Habit. 11:10:12 or indeed 11:10:48 Did you see that use.perl.org blog thing where a Perlist was confused why anyone would choose GitHub over Sourceforge, pointing out that Sourceforge did all the same things? 11:10:53 grr, it seems that the lp branch was still set as mirror of rage, thus being broken now 11:11:00 I'm convinced some people actually can't see UIs 11:11:07 Like, physically can't take note of them 11:11:15 ehird, tell me when you branched so I can convert it to hosted branch without breaking your branching of it 11:11:20 I branched it, yes. 11:11:23 right 11:11:33 Should I just rebranch? It only took a second or two. 11:11:39 Well. 15-30. 11:11:41 Still. 11:12:20 * ehird grabs notepad++. It'll do for now patching up cfunge. 11:12:34 Calibri's italic is very nice. I say this because /mes are displaying in it. 11:12:45 It has the properly cursive f and everything. 11:13:24 AnMaster: 11:13:25 ? 11:13:28 ehird, ? 11:14:35 11:11Should I just rebranch? It only took a second or two. 11:14:37 11:11Well. 15-30. 11:14:39 11:11Still. 11:15:37 * AnMaster messes around with lp to change it to hosted branch 11:15:51 so atm I would recommend against it, since I'm navigating the UI maze 11:16:49 * ehird obliterates notepad++ for sucking 11:17:18 ehird, what about using emacs in cygwin? 11:17:54 I kinda want something I can use right away, and emacs' superbar plays hell with window managers IME 11:18:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:18:12 ehird, superbar? 11:18:19 Is this the mode line you are referring to? 11:18:23 or the line below it 11:18:29 Emacs' docked-to-the-left-or-wherever file tree thing. 11:18:35 For opening other files in whatever you're working on. 11:18:41 ehird, oh that, right. 11:18:42 M-x superbar. 11:19:04 ehird, not available here it seems 11:19:12 get no match 11:19:19 yet I think I have seen it 11:19:29 http://www.pnotepad.org/ ;; Oh, this looks acceptable 11:19:37 it has syntax highlighting, a file tree and presumably auto indentation 11:19:40 It will do for now 11:20:27 ehird, indention in cfunge is one tab per level, and space to adjust (that is, like when you line up with parenthesis above when you break a long line) 11:20:49 I'll follow whatever awful bloated coding style you use. :) 11:20:52 astyle --indent-preprocessor --indent-namespaces --indent-labels --one-line=keep-statements --indent=tab=4 --max-instatement-indent=40 --brackets=linux --min-conditional-indent=1 --unpad=paren --indent-switches --pad=oper "$@" 11:20:55 ehird, mostly that 11:21:08 Yeah, I'm not about to program myself with an astyle command line... 11:21:12 that messes up a few times, so there are some corrections 11:21:29 like it seems to dislike C99 structs with .foo in them 11:22:40 Can I branch now? 11:23:46 ehird, well there seems to be an issue, I'm going to ask in #launchpad, but since you already branched I thought? 11:23:57 Will it work if I use that thing? 11:24:20 ehird, well think so, oh it is just update delay 11:24:43 as in, launchpad may take a few minutes to reflect new revisions being pushed 11:24:45 Files won't be added if I don't explicitly add them, right? 11:24:47 cache stuff and such 11:24:58 Just I made a cfunge.pnproj file to view the file tree. 11:24:58 ehird, well, depends on what you mean with "add" 11:25:03 To bzr 11:25:05 add in the git sense or add in the normal sense 11:25:13 where normal is svn, hg and so on 11:25:34 Normal sense 11:25:35 ehird, unversioned files won't be auto-added 11:25:41 Good 11:25:57 OK then, attempt one: build it straight 11:26:06 ehird, what sort of crappy VCS would auto-add unversioned files? 11:26:06 Oops, forgot to install make 11:26:12 heh 11:26:14 A crappy one like bzr? :P 11:26:25 ehird, well, that was just disproved. :P 11:26:54 wtf, cygwin or something has set my mosue pointer to the ugly, unsmoothed windows xp style one 11:27:22 * ehird fixes 11:27:37 ehird, it persisted after cygwin closed? 11:27:47 no idea what did it, really 11:27:48 just guessing 11:27:57 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:28:04 hi ais523 11:28:20 hi 11:30:23 AnMaster: well, ccmake starts! :-P 11:30:35 ehird, you could use just cmake you know. 11:30:38 ais523: context: I'm trying to compile cfunge with Cygwin with patches, ingenuity, evil 11:30:49 ais523, I have no clue why ehird is doing this 11:30:53 AnMaster: yes, but I want to see the variables in case I need to change them 11:31:09 AnMaster: that's a pretty good followup to my line 11:31:11 also 11:31:12 ehird, right, a bit harder to remember what ones to change otherwise 11:31:14 11:30[INFO]1 matches for “an”: [AnMaster: ] 11:31:16 nice bug there 11:31:19 an ambiguity of 1 11:31:23 ehird: reminds me of when I tried to run CLC-INTERCAL under DJGPP 11:31:28 52% 11:31:29 ehird, " 11:30 [INFO] 1 matches for “an”: [AnMaster: ]" <-- ? 11:31:32 57% 11:31:36 oh chatzilla? 11:31:36 error! 11:31:39 in the end I gave up, it was too hard to figure out where to change line endings 11:31:39 (those were in realtime) 11:31:43 (that's how slow it is) 11:31:48 ais523: heh 11:31:49 ehird, oh what error? 11:32:06 CMake Error at cmake/modules/CfungeRequireFunction.cmake:35 (message): 11:32:08 Your system seems to be missing the function "getaddrinfo" which is 11:32:10 required by cfunge. 11:32:12 ah right 11:32:12 naturally 11:32:13 indeed 11:32:22 so, time to do my first patching 11:32:27 first thing, get the getaddrinfo lib in place 11:32:29 ehird, will need to be changed to check for it conditionally and use the alternative one otherwise 11:32:33 second thing, kill myself before learning how to make a cmake file 11:32:35 wait, is this from gnulib? 11:32:40 no 11:32:54 http://www.sra.co.jp/people/m-kasahr/getaddrinfo/ 11:32:55 ehird, I used gnulib code before btw 11:33:11 AnMaster: but this thing is portable, which is good 11:33:15 I don't have to check for cygwin here 11:33:17 ehird, what about http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=gnulib.git;a=blob_plain;f=modules/getaddrinfo 11:33:20 just not having getaddrinfo 11:33:32 oh wait 11:33:33 AnMaster: because that one's probably gnucrap and I doubt it works on Windows :-P 11:33:39 that is too autotools tieed 11:33:41 tied* 11:33:49 told you, gnucrap 11:34:07 so, this should go in lib/getaddrinfo if I know the structure right? 11:34:26 ehird, it contains #ifdef _WIN32 though 11:34:36 What does 11:34:39 ehird, yep 11:34:45 ehird, the gnulib getaddrinfo 11:34:48 Ah 11:34:49 http://git.sv.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=gnulib.git;a=blob_plain;f=lib/getaddrinfo.c 11:34:52 http://git.sv.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=gnulib.git;a=blob_plain;f=lib/gai_strerror.c 11:35:05 ehird, but it is quite tied into automess 11:35:14 ooh some BeOS stuff in there too 11:35:21 They look pretty much the same, except one of them is unreadable because it uses the gnu coding standard 11:35:33 Also, I don't think the .jp getaddrinfo has any platform checks 11:35:55 AnMaster: should I keep getaddrinfo's ./configure and stuff in there even though it's not used? 11:35:57 ARGH THE FONT 11:36:16 (You can just -DUSE_PTHREAD when compiling it to an .o then link that in, so there's not much need for anything.) 11:36:21 ehird, nah, but license should be placed somewhere or such 11:36:21 The font on what? 11:36:31 http://www.sra.co.jp/people/m-kasahr/getaddrinfo/ 11:36:35 AnMaster: I'll keep it so it's a pristine package; probably better for the license 11:36:36 it is the double width thingy 11:36:44 Oh 11:36:45 http://www.sra.co.jp/people/m-kasahr/getaddrinfo/index.css 11:36:48 Blame your browser 11:36:57 ehird, firefox that is 11:37:03 Oh 11:37:04 11:37:07 That makes sense then 11:37:59 ehird, the gnu one does look simpler to me 11:38:04 AnMaster: I don't suppose CFUNGE_REQUIRE_FUNCTION has any sort of else clause? 11:38:25 ehird, there is another macro for when it optional. let me check the name 11:38:39 CFUNGE_CHECK_FUNCTION 11:38:43 hm 11:38:46 do tests on it 11:38:55 also, the only files needed in the non-gnu version is getaddrinfo.{c,h} 11:38:57 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:38:58 CFUNGE_CHECK_FUNCTION(clock_gettime) 11:38:58 if (NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_clock_gettime) 11:38:59 *are 11:39:02 as is done there 11:39:03 AnMaster: ah 11:39:48 ehird, you will need to do some conditional adding on "add_executable(cfunge ${CFUNGE_SOURCES})" to include those extra files optionally 11:39:49 AnMaster: is there a way to say "if we don't have any of these" other than a bunch of checks then NOT foo OR NOT bar? 11:39:51 I guess not 11:40:05 AnMaster: is there a way to say "if we don't have any of these" other than a bunch of checks then NOT foo OR NOT bar? <-- clarify? 11:40:14 Doesn't matter 11:40:23 CFUNGE_REQUIRE_MULTIPLE_INCLUDES("sys/types.h;netinet/tcp.h" "netinet/tcp.h") 11:40:25 like that? 11:40:44 Where should I put the 11:40:46 CFUNGE_CHECK_FUNCTION(getaddrinfo) 11:40:47 CFUNGE_CHECK_FUNCTION(freeaddrinfo) 11:40:49 and then adding logic stuff? 11:40:51 After the "Optional" section? 11:40:51 ehird, well not there no 11:40:53 *Optional 11:40:59 ah you mean like that 11:41:05 i.e., after the Existance of various functions section 11:41:09 Also, it's Existence 11:41:19 somewhere there 11:41:30 ehird, ok will fix that typo 11:42:35 pushed fix 11:43:13 Do I have to give the whole clause in the endif part? 11:43:15 It's so verbose and stuff. 11:43:29 ehird, yep. cmake isn't perfect either 11:43:36 at least, much better than autoconf 11:43:54 You know, this thing is basically a shell script with worse syntax. 11:44:01 Generating a config.mk 11:44:03 :P 11:44:17 11:39ehird, you will need to do some conditional adding on "add_executable(cfunge ${CFUNGE_SOURCES})" to include those extra files optionally 11:44:20 ehird, well, better syntax than autoconf thoughg 11:44:24 guess I need to find out how to append to variables, huh 11:44:26 tough* 11:44:30 *though 11:44:42 ehird, or set the variable to empty if the extra sources aren't needed 11:44:59 add_executable(cfunge ${CFUNGE_SOURCES} ${CFUNGE_OPTIONAL_SOURCES}) should work I think 11:45:02 haven't tried it 11:45:07 where the optional ones could vary 11:45:18 I don't even know how to set variablse :-P 11:45:20 *variables 11:45:44 ehird, look at the definitions of the macros 11:45:54 ehird, cmake/modules/* 11:46:07 set(CFUNGE_HAVE_${_name} true PARENT_SCOPE) 11:46:08 there 11:46:17 of course this is special in a macro 11:46:23 you won't need the parent scope stuff 11:46:33 nor building the variable name dynamically 11:47:17 What about to define a cpp thing for the program? 11:47:24 Since we need to include getaddrinfo.h 11:47:32 Hmm, also add -Ilib/getaddrinfo 11:47:35 ehird, you mean, define a -Dfoo kind of thing? 11:47:37 Such complicated things :-P 11:47:39 AnMaster: Yeah 11:47:51 add_definitions(-Dfoo) 11:48:20 ehird, as for the -I stuff: no, use ../../ or such rather 11:48:29 Ugly, but okay. 11:48:30 it is less likely to break stuff with system headers 11:48:44 ehird, because I remember that last time I tried on windows I had a header name collision 11:48:46 Hmm, do I have to do ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}/../lib/getaddrinfo in the CMakeLists.txt? 11:48:48 forgot for what file 11:48:51 Or will lib/getaddrinfo work 11:48:55 For adding a source file 11:49:14 ehird, I would use a FILE like I do for the other ones 11:49:28 A FILE? 11:49:33 FILE(GLOB CFUNGE__OPTIONAL_SOURCES RELATIVE ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR} lib/getaddrinfo/*) 11:49:38 that handles the paths correctly 11:49:42 Uh, it's only one .c. 11:49:42 err 11:49:44 FILE(GLOB CFUNGE__OPTIONAL_SOURCES RELATIVE ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR} lib/getaddrinfo/*.) 11:49:46 FILE(GLOB CFUNGE__OPTIONAL_SOURCES RELATIVE ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR} lib/getaddrinfo/*.c) 11:49:46 even 11:49:51 It's only one file 11:49:53 ehird, ah hm 11:49:54 The rest are tests and stuff 11:50:00 well it would need to be relative the source dir 11:50:05 Well, and an implementation of memset for no adequately explained reason 11:50:26 ehird, memset implementation? heh 11:50:37 I would prefer using system defined memset in general 11:50:43 It doesn't use it or anything 11:50:45 It's just there 11:50:47 XD 11:51:06 You know, in case you wanted one 11:51:10 ehird, I would definitely strip down the un-needed files, and provide a README in there pointing to the source and describing the changes 11:51:25 But then it's not really a lib, is it? 11:51:26 that is include the .c/.h and LICENSE 11:51:30 Anyway, there's a NEWS file and stuff. 11:51:34 ehird, well, the other libs are stripped down too 11:51:44 The license is in the README 11:51:57 hm ok. Try to apply some common sense? 11:52:08 Meh, fine, I'll strip it down 11:52:19 It just feels disrespectful to lob off their documentation 11:52:44 ehird, this is BSD 2 clause or? 11:52:56 3 clause 11:53:06 So we can't say "cfunge! Now with added getaddrinfo for retarded operating systems!" 11:53:10 "Buy it today!" 11:53:42 ehird: presumably, if you're messing with getaddrinfo it means that the core works but some of the fingerprints don't? 11:53:57 ehird, ok, see the top COPYING file? I think it should possibly be appended in there like is done for libghthash and genx 11:53:58 It refuses to even configure without getaddrinfo. 11:54:02 oh and ccbi 11:54:14 libghthash has a COPYING. 11:54:29 ehird, yep as well, just noticed the duplication 11:54:31 ehird: why not just roll your own build system? 11:54:32 heh 11:54:43 ais523: because my patches wouldn't be accepted. 11:54:46 ais523, because he want to send the patches upstream I think 11:54:57 ehird, btw, what on earth made you do this? 11:55:03 I'd love to just replace the whole thing with a shell script that outputs a config.mk which is included by a simple Makefile, but I doubt that'd be accepted 11:55:29 AnMaster: A stubborn refusal to accept the status quo opinion that you can write a program so POSIX, the laws of physics dictate that Windows can't run it 11:56:02 ehird: I hate to bring up the "Windows is TC" argument, so I won't 11:56:06 partly because I'm not sure if it works 11:56:11 ehird, I never claimed that. I only said I'm not willing to invest time in getting it running on windows 11:56:20 and don't want to mess up with too much #ifdef 11:56:23 ais523: What I said is known as a ``joke''. 11:56:30 I have seen such ifdef rich portable code 11:56:33 AnMaster: Shush you :P 11:56:34 ehird: you fail at smartquotes 11:56:36 ifdef-rich* 11:56:44 AnMaster: thinking of NetHack? 11:56:45 ais523: *faggot quotes (Don't hate me. This is their actual name.) 11:56:53 (At least, as far as a large variety of people are concerned.) 11:56:54 ais523, mosaic too 11:56:59 They are a form of ``emphasis''. 11:57:07 ais523, it was filled with VAX specific ifdefs 11:57:08 The ``GNU Project'' likes them. 11:57:18 oh, and they're used by default by `m4' 11:57:21 although not for emphasis 11:57:26 for actual quoting 11:57:30 ais523, heh 11:57:35 * ehird holds off on minimalising the getaddrinfo library for later 11:57:37 also, IIRC WinHlp32 used them too for its internal programming language 11:57:40 ais523, then what about the [] stuff that automess likes? 11:57:47 which I think was non-TC due to lack of infinite memory, but would otherwise have been TC 11:57:51 AnMaster: they're configurable 11:57:54 ah 11:58:01 somewhere near the start would be changequote(`[',`]') 11:58:08 add_executable(cfunge ${CFUNGE_SOURCES} ${CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES}) 11:58:10 AnMaster: a sane way of doing it? 11:58:26 ehird, well if you set CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES to empty in case those aren't used 11:58:36 iirc it will error if unset 11:58:39 and the reason that autotools changes the quotes is that both ` and ' are rather common in shell-script, and they don't even balance each other! 11:58:42 I do set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES) before checking, yes. 11:58:47 mhm 11:59:14 I also -DUSE_GETADDRINFO_LIBRARY; do you want me to add a namespace or ten to that? 11:59:18 ehird, adding the _Exit() vs. _exit() would be trivial, could do that here myself 11:59:30 All of this is trivial 11:59:46 ehird, except the SOCK/SCKE bit 12:00:04 I didn't get a warning about static with gcc 3 and a test file. 12:00:14 So I guess it's a problem with the gcc 4 packages or smething. 12:00:14 ehird, oh and does cygwin define __WIN32__? 12:00:15 Anyway. 12:00:21 AnMaster: I don't know. 12:00:22 if so, src/instructions/sysinfo.c needs changing 12:00:27 We'll see. 12:00:34 11:59I also -DUSE_GETADDRINFO_LIBRARY; do you want me to add a namespace or ten to that? 12:00:35 because it define a dummy environ in that case. 12:00:37 Also, is: 12:00:41 #define USE_PTHREADS 12:00:45 #include .../.../.sdf.sdfsdfskf 12:00:47 #undef USE_PTHREADS 12:00:52 in both source files acceptable? 12:01:35 11:59 I also -DUSE_GETADDRINFO_LIBRARY; do you want me to add a namespace or ten to that? <-- can't see how it would collide? and would be easy to change afterwards 12:01:43 ehird, why pthreads? 12:01:52 It isn't thread-safe unless you let it use pthreads. 12:01:56 I assume cfunge is threaded somewhere. 12:02:00 ehird, I don't use threads 12:02:10 Alright then. 12:02:22 ehird: I don't think ATHR is implemented in cfunge 12:02:30 ais523, correct 12:02:35 #include "../../../lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.h" 12:02:38 Seven billion ../s 12:02:39 ehird, yep 12:03:15 Alright, time for cmake round 2: Electric Boogaloo, or, see how much I broke things. 12:03:42 Call me back in an hour when it's finished the first configuration step :P 12:03:48 But it's going, so I guess I didn't break it too horribly. 12:03:51 ehird, I'm not sure that even if you get it to link, that it will actually run 12:03:56 and run correctly 12:04:06 Why not 12:04:16 cfunge can run emacs and stuff 12:04:21 Even on a ported X11 12:04:25 cfunge runs emacs? XD 12:04:29 Erm. 12:04:31 Cygwin. 12:04:35 I don't see why it shouldn't be able to handle a puny befunge interpreter. 12:04:37 Although... slowly... 12:04:40 Well, maybe. 12:04:42 Depending. 12:04:46 I wonder if the inline asm will work. 12:05:10 ehird, the inline asm is used for x86_64, I only wrote intrinsics using code for 32-bit x86 12:05:30 Cygwin FAQ 12:05:32 As far as we know no one is working on a native 64 bit version of Cygwin. 12:05:33 Well bugger :P 12:05:53 Woot, first cmake stage finished 12:05:53 can you put 64-bit asm in an otherwise 32-bit program? 12:05:56 So it works 12:05:58 So far 12:05:59 ais523, no 12:06:00 ais523: no. 12:06:02 I'm relatively sure you could do that with 32 and 16 12:06:03 you have to switch into long mode 12:06:10 which completely changes everything 12:06:12 ehird, but at some point I might add 32-bit asm too. Or not. 12:06:16 if running in protected mode, at least 12:06:30 ehird, maybe you should be the cygwin maintainer of cfunge in the future! :D 12:06:33 amd64 was an excuse to make x86 slightly less crufty :P 12:06:41 bait 'n switch to no-legacy land 12:06:44 *no legacy 12:06:52 AnMaster: sure. can't be too hard 12:07:02 as I'm quite liking windows 7 I should be up for it 12:07:03 ehird, it was supposed to be a joke 12:07:17 that you was supposed to go "gaah" at or so 12:07:18 And what's #esoteric's motto, ais523? 12:07:24 Never let a joke get in the way of a bad idea. 12:07:33 I'm pretty sure it isn't that 12:07:33 ah right forgot that 12:07:40 (Okay, I made that more snappy from what you originally said, but.) 12:07:44 maybe it's "WHO TOOK THE KONAMI CODE OUT OF THE TOPIC?" 12:07:47 ais523: at one point I complained you and AnMaster were ruining a joke 12:07:53 while trying to figure out how it'd work in practice 12:07:56 and you said something along the lines 12:07:56 ah, ok 12:07:59 that seems more like #esoteric 12:08:22 AnMaster: i'm not going to try installing this time, btw 12:08:25 since I'd have to fix up the install path 12:08:30 i guess 12:08:31 ehird, installing isn't something I do very often either 12:08:38 Oh, it will do -O3, it seems 12:08:41 but I test it before each release 12:08:44 Since that's what release has 12:08:50 ehird, well, those are only defaults 12:08:53 It's so funny seeing paths like "/usr/bin/strip.exe" 12:08:54 you can change them as needed 12:09:04 I tend to add -march= to the release ones for example 12:09:10 USE_64BIT is on; better turn that off. 12:09:17 ehird, that just changes cell size 12:09:35 but fine, for speed you definitely want 32-bit cells on 32-bit system 12:09:36 Well, 32-bit will be faster with a 32-bit compile. 12:09:45 ehird, it is faster even on x86_64 12:09:49 due to cache mostl 12:09:51 mostly* 12:09:53 AnMaster: Mine will totally be faster because Windows just puts shit in the kernel to improve speed. 12:09:59 The GUI's in the kernel because of that reason. :P 12:10:10 ehird, mycology will hit that fork() at least two times 12:10:12 just FYI 12:10:17 It should work fine. 12:10:34 -!- FireFly has joined. 12:10:34 ehird, also I think some #defines in the code for y will need changing 12:10:38 Alright, Makefile generated 12:10:41 Time to make 12:10:50 AnMaster: First objective is getting it to build 12:10:51 Deewiant, would you say the path separator should be \ or / under cygwin? 12:10:58 It's /usr/bin and stuff 12:11:04 c:\foo isn't, like, official 12:11:09 You're meant to do /cygdrive/c/foo 12:11:13 So, / for sure 12:11:27 well, depending on what cygwin defines it might need some changing then 12:11:37 AnMaster: Oh, this again; cfunge balks because Cygwin doesn't claim that its mmap and regexp are meticulously POSIX-compliant 12:11:41 #ifdef __WIN32__ 12:11:41 # define PUSH_REQ_6(m_pushstack) \ 12:11:41 stack_push((m_pushstack), (funge_cell)'\\') 12:11:41 #else 12:11:41 # define PUSH_REQ_6(m_pushstack) \ 12:11:42 stack_push((m_pushstack), (funge_cell)'/') 12:11:44 #endif 12:11:46 is what I have there atm 12:11:47 Which is a crime henious enough of an #error 12:11:52 According to cfunge 12:12:01 It seems like a very silly check to me 12:12:09 ehird, well I have been considering a better way to check that 12:12:21 since openbsd has problems in that area too 12:12:37 * ehird notes there are some implicit declaration warnings in genx, as well as cast-discarding-qualifier warnings 12:12:49 in genx stringbuffer, implicit declarations and nested extern declarations 12:12:50 ehird, so they will probably change in the soon future in any case 12:12:56 in genx stringbuffer, implicit declarations and nested extern declarations <-- wait? 12:12:58 and some other misc stuff 12:13:02 is that a missing "and" there 12:13:05 AnMaster: yes 12:13:08 ah 12:13:16 also some implicit decls in cfunge 12:13:18 like srandom() 12:13:25 ehird, ouch this might be bad 12:13:28 Anyway, what should I do 12:13:30 || __CYGWIN__? 12:13:42 For the posix checks 12:13:45 ehird, because that just means... that it is called without showing up in header 12:13:51 Along with /* FIXME: hack */ 12:13:55 AnMaster: Yes, but the linker didn't complain last time 12:13:59 It'll just be in another header file 12:14:05 AnMaster: btw, cygwin uses newlib 12:14:05 ehird, fine atm, because they are expected to go away soon 12:14:12 just fyi 12:14:28 ehird, issue is if that implicit decl turns out like: foo(int, char*) when it is really foo(long, char*) 12:14:29 or such 12:14:35 Eh 12:14:36 or long long 12:14:37 There aren't too many 12:14:44 ehird, mhm 12:14:52 Do you have a rule about not going over 80cols? 12:15:05 ehird, no hard rule, but I try to keep it not too wide 12:15:07 Nope 12:15:08 fungespace_set(value, vector_create_ref(position->x + offset->x, position->y + offset->y)); 12:15:10 96 cols 12:15:17 Well, assuming 4-space tabs, I guess 12:15:20 which is what my editor's default is 12:15:26 (Hard tabs) 12:15:42 Before doing anything, I'll commit my getaddrinfo fix 12:15:49 How do I tell bzr who I am? Simple command or? 12:15:53 ehird, I try to break lines at 80 if it will not end up looking even worese 12:15:54 worse* 12:15:55 or so 12:16:10 but yeah, as long as I don't end up scrolling sideways in my own editor :P 12:16:11 It's on an #if line directly after the hackish clause 12:16:18 So, kinda hard to break up 12:16:19 How do I tell bzr who I am? Simple command or? 12:16:25 hm you mean for commits? 12:16:29 Yes 12:16:32 bzr help whoami 12:16:35 to see syntax 12:16:44 so yep, pretty simple 12:16:49 ehird, you might want to nick the branch too 12:16:54 to bzr nick cfunge-ehird or so 12:16:59 cfunge-cygwin 12:17:05 ehird, that works too 12:17:10 bzr nick cfunge-cygwin 12:17:19 by default it is same as directory name 12:17:21 Grr, I wish the scrollbar worked in cmd.exe 12:17:27 Er 12:17:29 ehird, it doesn't= 12:17:29 scrollwheel 12:17:31 ah 12:17:32 The scrollbar works fine if you drag it 12:17:41 ehird, cygwin provides rxvt and such 12:17:55 Yes, but that breaks on native windows programs and stuff, I think 12:18:01 Anyway, cmd.exe is mostly fine 12:18:01 ah hm probably 12:18:04 I'm using bash in it of course 12:18:42 "bzr commit" now? 12:19:02 ehird, anyway implict decls are kind of bad. Kind of bad as in "don't ever commit that". Maybe falling back on rand/srand or such could work 12:19:17 I'll commit it because it's temporary work 12:19:21 ehird, bzr ci -m "log message goes here, or it opens a editor for you" 12:19:26 Fine-grained commits are nice for, you know, reverting 12:19:27 well, commit works too 12:19:32 ci is shorter 12:19:40 ehird, agreed 12:20:20 ehird, btw, there is bzr send, but I doubt you can get that working under windows 12:20:29 What does it do? 12:20:31 This is cygwin remember 12:20:34 It has sshd and all kinds of stuff 12:20:34 ehird, send commits by mail 12:20:41 Should work fine 12:20:53 ehird, you have a mail client and such set up? 12:20:57 First commit, ba-za-za-done! 12:21:01 AnMaster: Can't it use sendmail? 12:21:12 ehird, not sure, I never tried it 12:21:45 Deewiant's wrong; it doesn't define cygwin 12:22:08 ehird: /nobody/ can use sendmail 12:22:10 ehird, err __CYWIN__ with two _? 12:22:23 ais523: sendmail(1) is trivial 12:22:27 ais523, well I could, but I prefer qmail 12:22:35 AnMaster: Isn't that what it is? 12:22:37 It fails with one _ too, anyway 12:22:49 ehird, sec for a gcc command to list all predefined defines 12:23:05 -!- Pthing has joined. 12:23:10 -!- adam_d has quit (No route to host). 12:23:13 echo | gcc -dM -E - 12:23:31 ehird, will list all predefined ones on stdout 12:23:36 Elliott@Elliott-PC ~/cfunge/build 12:23:38 $ echo | gcc -DM -E - 12:23:40 # 1 "" 12:23:42 # 1 "" 12:23:43 # 1 "" 12:23:45 err 12:23:45 # 1 "" 12:23:46 Elliott@Elliott-PC ~/cfunge/build 12:23:48 $ 12:23:49 OR WILL IT 12:23:51 ehird, what gcc version 12:23:53 $ echo | gcc -dM -E - | wc -l 12:23:53 128 12:23:57 3.4.4 12:24:02 ehird, oh might be too old 12:24:07 "Hey, at least it doesn't complain about static" Edition 12:24:28 ehird, works on 3.4.6 here, don't have any older 12:24:30 Hah, it has gdc, apparently 12:24:56 gcc-3.4.6 gcc-4.1.2 gcc-4.3.2 are the ones I have according to tab completion 12:25:13 Huh 12:25:16 __CYGWIN__ expands to 1 12:25:17 and 4.3.3 on my laptop 12:25:19 when I do cpp /dev/stdin 12:25:26 Oh! 12:25:30 ehird, hm ok, then it should be defined 12:25:33 #if !defined(_POSIX_MAPPED_FILES) || (_POSIX_MAPPED_FILES < 1) || __CYGWIN__ /* hack */ 12:25:35 # error "cfunge needs a working mmap(), which this system claims it lacks." 12:25:37 Spot the error 12:25:39 of course that won't work 12:25:43 defined() 12:25:46 ... 12:25:47 Fail 12:25:50 Read it again 12:26:02 oh backwards too 12:26:02 (Also, of course it will; __CYGWIN__ expands to 1) 12:26:17 Should I use defined() instead? 12:26:19 !defined(__CYGWIN__) 12:26:21 should work 12:26:22 there 12:26:23 I think 12:26:24 Kay 12:26:31 wait no 12:26:32 it won't 12:26:40 It sis 12:26:42 did 12:26:44 *did 12:26:49 #if (!defined(_POSIX_MAPPED_FILES) || (_POSIX_MAPPED_FILES < 1)) && !defined(__CYGWIN__) 12:26:54 otherwise it will break everywhere else 12:26:55 moar implicit decl + nested decl 12:26:56 :P 12:26:58 and cast warnings 12:26:59 ehird, ^ 12:27:02 Yes 12:27:03 That's what I did 12:27:06 right 12:27:13 Now to do the same to REXP.c 12:27:20 wait what? 12:27:25 # error "cfunge needs POSIX regular expressions, which this system claims it doesn't have." 12:27:27 ah 12:27:35 ehird, well I don't check that in cmakelists I think hm 12:27:36 or 12:27:37 do I? 12:27:41 OR DO YOU 12:27:48 I already said that 12:27:53 anyway seems I do 12:27:59 CFUNGE_REQUIRE_FUNCTION(regcomp) 12:28:03 [ 1%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/REXP/REXP.c.o 12:28:05 [ 3%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/ROMA/ROMA.c.o 12:28:07 [ 5%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o 12:28:08 [ 7%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SOCK/SOCK.c.o 12:28:10 [ 9%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/STRN/STRN.c.o 12:28:11 [ 11%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SUBR/SUBR.c.o 12:28:12 err 12:28:13 yes? 12:28:13 [ 13%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/TERM/TERM.c.o 12:28:14 spam 12:28:14 [ 15%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/TIME/TIME.c.o 12:28:16 [ 17%] Building C object CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/TOYS/TOYS.c.o 12:28:17 Multiple files with no warnings 12:28:19 That's a true beauty 12:28:21 AnMaster: It's something I have not yet seen in this compile :P 12:28:24 ah 12:28:33 Ah, the good ol' M_PI undeclared 12:28:37 AnMaster: tell me what your M_PI is? 12:28:43 32-bit 12:28:45 ehird, well POSIX declares it as XSI. 12:28:46 ehird: M_PI isn't standard AFAIK 12:28:51 ais523: It isn't 12:28:56 ais523, POSIX 2008 mentions it here 12:29:01 as part of XSI 12:29:02 it used to be on the header files back on DOS, though 12:29:04 math.h, to be precise 12:29:12 ais523, well yes it should be in math.h 12:29:12 which is probably not a header file you can legally put it in 12:29:21 ais523, ... read what I said 12:29:21 without a feature test macro, or something similar 12:29:22 AnMaster: Yo, pi plz 12:29:54 # define M_PI 3.14159265358979323846 /* pi */ 12:30:08 copied from math.h 12:30:18 I like the comment there 12:30:19 so that is whatever license glibc uses 12:30:27 # define M_PI 3.14159265358979323846 /* pi */ 12:30:27 # define M_PI_2 1.57079632679489661923 /* pi/2 */ 12:30:27 # define M_PI_4 0.78539816339744830962 /* pi/4 */ 12:30:29 there is that too 12:30:29 I'm going to be a horrible pirate 12:30:36 And COMPLETELY IGNORE their copyright on pi! 12:30:47 ehird, well I think the copyright is the formatting here :P 12:30:48 ehird: take the value, and write the rest of the line from scratch 12:30:53 I did :P 12:31:06 But I refuse to add the explanatory /* pi */ comment! 12:31:11 ("explanatory") 12:31:12 ehird, include #ifndef M_PI 12:31:16 in case it is defined 12:31:17 Of course 12:31:19 Hey, we're on to linking 12:31:34 CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/PERL/PERL.c.o:PERL.c:(.text+0x1b9): undef 12:31:36 ined reference to `__Exit' 12:31:38 CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0x65): undefi 12:31:39 ais523, anyway POSIX.1-2008 declares M_PI on page 286 12:31:39 ned reference to `_getaddrinfo' 12:31:41 CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0xa4): undefi 12:31:42 ned reference to `_freeaddrinfo' 12:31:44 Easy peasy 12:31:46 I guess including it in sources doesn't link its object? 12:31:54 9518 XSI M_PI Value of π 12:31:54 9519 XSI M_PI_2 Value of π /2 12:31:54 9520 XSI M_PI_4 Value of π /4 12:31:54 9521 XSI M_1_PI Value of 1/π 12:31:54 9522 XSI M_2_PI Value of 2/π 12:31:58 those are line numbers 12:32:04 for easy reference 12:32:08 Oh wait 12:32:10 I didn't define a FILE 12:32:11 Thing 12:32:16 ehird: yep, generally speaking, unless they're in one of the standard libraries 12:32:27 ais523: I'm talking about cmake 12:32:29 Stfu :P 12:32:44 ais523, so yes M_PI *is* standard 12:32:48 AnMaster: Is there a FILE(NOGLOBBINGORANYTHING or whatever? 12:32:58 ehird, think so. man cmake? 12:33:13 man works. That's a nice surprise. 12:33:25 Longest manual EVAR 12:33:28 ehird, or rather, you don't need FILE if it is one file, just remember it must be relative 12:33:34 ehird, nop, bash one is longer iirc 12:33:41 So I guess 12:33:42 and so is the non-split zsh one 12:33:45 set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOUCRES lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c) 12:33:46 should be 12:33:48 gcc one is pretty long too 12:33:53 set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOUCRES ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}/../lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c) 12:34:00 ehird, not the .. there 12:34:04 Ah 12:34:05 the ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR} is the top one 12:34:14 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:34:33 * ehird reconfigures 12:35:15 I wonder if I make an installer for this I could get you to do the unthinkable embarrassment and put a windows binary up for download :-P 12:35:35 Interesting work ethic here, where my half-hearted desire to see you squirm is making me improve your software 12:35:39 brb. mom shouted 12:35:50 "ARE YOU ASSOCIATING WITH CYGWIN SCOUNDRELS?" 12:35:58 "THEY'RE NOT PURE BLOODED, AN!" 12:36:07 (AnMaster's name: totally An Master.) 12:37:02 Okay, make time. 12:37:46 Sweet, same error 12:37:55 Oh, it's just in SCKE, not SOCK 12:37:58 I'll fix the _Exit thing first 12:38:50 back 12:38:55 OK, don to two errors. 12:39:05 CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0x65): undefi 12:39:07 ehird, remembers small commits 12:39:07 ned reference to `_getaddrinfo' 12:39:09 CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0xa4): undefi 12:39:10 ned reference to `_freeaddrinfo' 12:39:20 AnMaster: Oh, right; I'll revert one change 12:39:22 ehird, conditional include header there too I guess 12:39:23 Does SOCK use getaddrinfo? 12:39:43 ehird, grep? It would take you equal time to me to find out 12:40:02 The answer is no 12:40:06 How do I commit only some files? 12:40:06 indeed 12:40:18 ehird, bzr ci foo.c bar.c -m "message here" 12:40:23 or so 12:40:32 that would exclude quux.c 12:41:35 ehird, note that cd foo/; bzr ci, will commit stuff in bar/ too by default, ci/diff/log and so on tend to be centered on tree root by default, unless you do something like bzr diff . 12:41:36 then 12:41:40 to indicate current directory 12:42:16 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:42:24 -!- puzzlet has joined. 12:42:40 ehird, anything else? oh btw for _Exit vs. _exit 12:42:48 you don't need to add any define in cmake 12:42:51 just checks for them 12:42:57 +#ifndef _Exit 12:42:59 +# define _Exit _exit /* This probably works */ 12:42:59 since the check macro adds defines by default 12:43:01 +#endif 12:43:02 I'm pretty sure everything has _exit 12:43:03 ehird, hm or that I guess 12:43:05 Doesn't it? 12:43:13 I mean, even Windows. 12:45:16 ehird, btw, when it comes to warnings, the implicit ones needs to be fixed at least 12:45:19 OK, only one thing to go: fix the seeming unlinkingness of getaddrinfo/freeaddrinfo. 12:45:29 AnMaster: Sure, but it'll still work. 12:45:47 ehird, well, it might by pure chance, see what I said about prototypes first time you mentioned this 12:45:52 CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0x65): undefi 12:45:54 ned reference to `_getaddrinfo' 12:45:56 CMakeFiles/cfunge.dir/src/fingerprints/SCKE/SCKE.c.o:SCKE.c:(.text+0xa4): undefi 12:45:58 ned reference to `_freeaddrinfo' 12:46:01 Yet the relevant file is in the executable thingy. 12:46:01 hm 12:46:13 ehird, wait, what is the _ doing there? 12:46:16 Windows. 12:46:23 Everything gets prefixed by a _. 12:46:28 huh 12:47:30 ehird, sure those are included? try in ccmake to turn on CMAKE_VERBOSE_MAKEFILE 12:47:36 it is in the advanced section 12:47:41 that will make the commands be printed 12:47:50 so you can see if the link command looks sane 12:49:22 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:50:20 * ehird ponders asking the Windows developer on IAmA about the most efficient way to implement fork() :-P 12:50:32 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:50:51 Okay, verbose making go. 12:50:56 Holy fuck you have a lot of -W options. 12:51:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:52:30 AnMaster: http://pastie.org/614537.txt?key=zovi8xmxwmc4mlpaow have fun with the wall of text :P 12:53:46 ("libcfunge.dll.a") 12:53:57 * AnMaster looks 12:54:08 (lol) 12:54:17 not too hard to read 12:54:35 ehird, what was the file that handled getaddrinfo again? 12:54:45 lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c 12:54:46 there is no getaddrinfo mentioned in there 12:54:52 so it seems something went wrong 12:55:00 set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES) 12:55:02 CFUNGE_CHECK_FUNCTION(getaddrinfo) 12:55:04 CFUNGE_CHECK_FUNCTION(freeaddrinfo) 12:55:05 if (NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_getaddrinfo OR NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_freeaddrinfo) 12:55:07 set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOUCRES ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}/lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c) 12:55:08 add_definitions(-DUSE_GETADDRINFO_LIBRARY) 12:55:10 endif (NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_getaddrinfo OR NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_freeaddrinfo) 12:55:12 then 12:55:14 add_executable(cfunge ${CFUNGE_SOURCES} ${CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES}) 12:55:22 ehird, "(NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_getaddrinfo OR NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_freeaddrinfo)" < try only the first part 12:55:30 What if the system only has one? 12:55:39 ehird, well just try it atm to see if that was the issue 12:55:42 I'll parenthesize it 12:55:45 remember to change endif 12:55:47 I bet the NOT is getting the rest of it 12:56:10 ehird, suspect that too 12:56:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 12:56:43 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:58:32 Yay, it configurd. 12:58:34 *configured 12:58:42 It's like compiling KDE :P 12:59:50 Same fuckin' error 13:00:08 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:00:13 AnMaster: Should I just remove the if and do it unconditionally? 13:00:14 Just to make sure 13:00:33 ehird, worth a tryoe 13:00:42 Tryoe: Try + typo 13:00:44 trye* 13:00:46 try* 13:00:48 + Aloe 13:00:52 lol 13:00:58 levenshtein correction 13:01:01 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 13:01:03 only one distance at a time 13:01:09 ehird, indeed 13:02:04 + Aloe <-- ? 13:02:16 Try + typo = tryo 13:02:23 So I needed an oe from somewhere 13:02:27 oh 13:03:36 Yay, configured. 13:03:44 (I started when I said "levenshtien correction".) 13:03:51 That's right, 3 minutes to get from 0% to 100%. 13:04:26 I should download one of those Expose-for-Windows things; Windows-Tab is useless. 13:05:01 AnMaster: Guess whether the error differs or not 13:05:03 Bingo 13:05:21 So, 13:05:32 is FILE(GLOB FOO RELATIVE BAR BAZ*QUUX) 13:05:34 just, 13:05:49 foo = glob(bar/baz*quux) 13:05:50 ? 13:07:06 oe 13:07:08 *or 13:08:56 AnMaster: ? 13:08:58 ehird, hm? 13:09:02 Oh, I think I know! 13:09:04 add_executable(cfunge ${CFUNGE_SOURCES} ${CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES}) 13:09:08 That third argument isn't more sources 13:09:10 It's something else, I bet 13:09:15 ehird, oh could be. 13:09:17 How do I concatenate the two, then? Or is it not that? 13:09:17 check man page 13:09:23 Bah. It's impossible to search 13:09:36 There 13:09:40 Nope 13:09:40 ehird, you don't know how to search cmake? 13:09:41 err 13:09:42 man page 13:09:48 use / 13:09:50 add_executable( [WIN32] [MACOSX_BUNDLE] [EXCLUDE_FROM_ALL] 13:09:51 source1 source2 ... sourceN) 13:09:52 I didn't mean 13:09:52 well 13:09:53 I know that 13:09:55 sheesh 13:09:57 yes 13:09:57 seems it should work 13:10:18 I was under the impression that win7 had something Expose-like called "Aero Peek", but apparently that's some other thing entirely. 13:10:21 Is there a halt_and_prompt_the_user_for_confirmation_after_printing? 13:10:33 fizzie: Windows-Tab gives each window in front of each other, 3D-style. 13:10:48 It's just different enough from Expose to be not a ripoff and useless. 13:10:49 they stole that from Compiz 13:10:57 it's exactly the same effect, and the same key combo too 13:10:58 ais523: I very much doubt that's the case 13:10:59 ehird, hm? 13:11:03 ais523: It was in Vista 13:11:04 well, super-tab is scrolly 13:11:16 ais523: Compiz stole almost all of its effects from OS X and Vista 13:11:17 whereas I think the windows version puts everything side-on so you can't see it 13:11:20 ehird, you could make it an error message containing the thing, or use cmake instead of ccmake 13:11:26 AnMaster: Ah, how do you error? 13:11:35 message(FATAL_ERROR 13:11:35 "Your system seems to be missing the header \"${_name}\" which is required by cfunge.") 13:11:38 is an example 13:11:46 ehird: I'm aware that it's blatantly stealing from OSX; I'm not sure about which way round it is compared to the Vista effects 13:12:08 Yes, I remember the 3d-window-stackery from Vista;re. but that "Aero Peek" is some sort of taskbar-preview-related featu 13:12:08 ais523: The minimize, restore effects are identical 13:12:15 Also the open window, close window ones 13:12:24 Either Compiz stole them, or Microsoft enjoy legal deep shit 13:12:39 the minimize-restore effects are obvious 13:12:49 Doesn't matter; those 4 being identical is telling 13:12:52 I mean identical 13:12:54 I'm willing to believe that those ones could have been invented independently 13:12:54 pixel-for-pixel 13:13:02 Yes, but when paired with the other two... 13:13:07 which are totally nonobvious 13:13:19 what does OSX do for those, by the way? 13:13:27 For opening and closing windows? 13:13:29 Nothing. 13:13:38 Such animations are useless eyecandy. 13:13:57 ehird, for minimize and restore it has useless eye candy too 13:13:58 on an unresponsive system, it's useful to have an obvious way to notice when a window's opened 13:14:04 I'm not sure that method is the correct one, though 13:14:14 ais523, the fact that a new window shows up? 13:14:17 isn't that enough? 13:14:29 AnMaster: not always, especially if you're staring at something else at the time 13:14:47 ais523, if you are looking at something else, you wouldn't see animation either? 13:14:50 The window shadow should do that. 13:14:52 hmm... does anyone else find typical Windows machines impossibly slow to use just after they've booted 13:14:55 AnMaster: that's not how the human eye works 13:14:57 as in, you have to get up and do something else 13:14:59 ais523: Not Windows 7 13:15:04 Bogged down XP systems, yes 13:15:17 This thing boots up fast once the BIOS hands control 13:15:17 ehird, I meant something else = a book or so, so the monitor isn't in your view at all 13:15:19 *hands over 13:15:21 ;P 13:15:21 I'm thinking Vista running Norton antivirus 13:15:30 AnMaster: Peripheral vision 13:15:31 ehird, anyway, any luck with cmake? 13:15:39 the boot's fast; it's just unusable for about 10 minutes after it's booted 13:15:41 ehird, that only goes to ~180 degrees iirc 13:15:48 ais523: 7 is easier on the system than Vista, but what sort of specs has it got? 13:15:49 as in, you do anything, and you can make a cup of coffee or whatever before it responds 13:15:53 ais523: The culprit is almost certainly Norton, btw 13:15:57 ehird: I don't know, but I doubt they're good 13:16:06 and I mentioned Norton because I thought it was probably responsibel 13:16:09 *responsible 13:16:17 Windows doesn't gracefully degrade; above the minimum hardware it works fine, below that it just crawls 13:16:18 ehird, plus it isn't xray vision. *imagines big news paper in front of monitor :P 13:16:20 * 13:16:21 There's never middle ground with windows 13:16:24 *any middle 13:16:27 ehird: ah, that's interesting to know 13:16:28 AnMaster: Still working on it, btw 13:16:34 ais523: Well, it's just my experience 13:16:37 Limited, admittedly 13:16:39 it tallies with mine, too 13:16:54 AnMaster: CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES is empty right after setting it unconditionally 13:17:00 AnMaster: Do you have to do something special to reset something? 13:17:02 Since I do 13:17:07 set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES) 13:17:08 then 13:17:10 set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOUCRES ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}/lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c) 13:17:32 hm 13:17:36 ais523: Windows also decays a lot quicker than other OSs 13:17:45 On the other hand, when it's not decayed, it's faster than other OSs 13:17:48 I don't get OS decay-over-time at all 13:17:53 ehird, I never tried setting it more than once, I would do an else there 13:17:55 it seems to defy the typical rules of computer physics 13:18:01 ais523: It's mainly Windows that does it 13:18:07 Other systems do it, but are so slow you wouldn't notice it 13:18:18 I haven't noticed any on this system, and it's never been reinstalled 13:18:20 e.g., if you installed Debian 15 years ago, I doubt it'd still be working over all the upgrades 13:18:26 it's been upgraded continuously from Feisty 13:18:29 ehird, try removing the first set to see if anything changes 13:18:31 AnMaster: Alright 13:18:33 OTOH, Windows seems to decay even if not upgraded, somehow 13:18:36 Is it just "else"? 13:18:54 ehird, else (whole whopping condition again) 13:18:59 :P 13:19:09 oh and I thought about trying scons for my next C project 13:19:25 but on the other hand, from a user point of view, that is even more irritating 13:19:31 scons is verbose and silly in my experience 13:19:41 ehird, and ignores cflags and such by default 13:19:50 I strongly suggest you try writing a simple shell script that writes out a simple config.mk, which you include in a Makefile 13:19:52 which is irritating when you need -m32 or such to compile something 13:19:55 I bet you'll be surprised how cleanly and easily it works out 13:19:57 + no dependencise at all 13:20:00 *dependencies 13:20:07 also, readable/editable Makefiles 13:20:09 ehird, then I will have to handle deps between headers and c files myself 13:20:18 Scons doesn't handle that afaik 13:20:21 Well, it might 13:20:29 well ok, that is a blocker to me 13:20:32 AnMaster: makedep 13:20:34 anyway 13:20:39 ehird, yes I know about such tooks 13:20:40 tools* 13:20:40 gcc has a facility to do what makedep does 13:20:50 It's just a few lines in a Makefile to have it included and regenerated automatically 13:21:08 Admittedly, such a shell + make solution won't win any awards for extreme elegance, but the code will be compact, it'll be fast, and it won't have any dependencies. 13:21:23 ehird, shell scripts won't be fast under cygwin 13:21:31 Scons does header-dependencies completely automatically, I think. 13:21:33 and it will be painful to use plain sh 13:21:34 AnMaster: So what? Everything uses ./configure 13:21:35 rather than bash 13:21:39 Also, use bash then 13:21:41 Cygwin has bash 13:21:47 ehird, but some systems might not 13:21:55 fizzie, ah interesting 13:21:58 Yah, nobody cares about those systems :P 13:22:30 ehird, did it work with just setting that var once? 13:22:41 if ((NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_getaddrinfo) OR (NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_freeaddrinfo)) 13:22:43 set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOUCRES ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}/lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c) 13:22:45 add_definitions(-DUSE_GETADDRINFO_LIBRARY) 13:22:47 else ((NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_getaddrinfo) OR (NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_freeaddrinfo)) 13:22:48 set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES) 13:22:50 endif ((NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_getaddrinfo) OR (NOT CFUNGE_HAVE_freeaddrinfo)) 13:22:51 message(FATAL_ERROR "${CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES}") 13:22:53 with no definition before 13:22:55 -> 13:22:56 still empty 13:22:57 * ehird removes the conditional 13:22:59 what the hell 13:23:07 nasal demons 13:23:11 I blame them 13:23:17 they're probably flying out of my nose 13:23:19 washing the windows api 13:24:33 set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOUCRES ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}/lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c) 13:24:35 add_definitions(-DUSE_GETADDRINFO_LIBRARY) 13:24:37 [comments] 13:24:39 message(FATAL_ERROR "${CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURCES}") 13:24:42 Guess what? 13:24:43 It's empty 13:24:57 I can not possibly explain this... 13:25:02 Nasal demosn! 13:25:04 *demons 13:25:22 ehird, well I can in fact 13:25:28 Cool. 13:25:29 ehird, it is easy once you read it carefully 13:25:34 try fixing the typo 13:25:37 s/CR/RC/ 13:25:40 Oh, fuck. 13:25:43 Someone kill me. 13:25:56 See, this is the problem with we programmers. 13:26:02 We instantly jump to mystics. 13:26:05 Never considering the obvious. 13:26:18 Let's try this again. 13:26:23 ehird, when I end up with something weird like that I tend to do copy and paste of variable names to see if there is a hidden typo I can't spot 13:28:10 oh fuck 13:28:12 set(CFUNGE_GETADDRINFO_SOURcES ${CFUNGE_SOURCE_DIR}/lib/getaddrinfo/getaddrinfo.c) 13:28:15 is cmake case insensitive? 13:28:17 please say yes 13:28:25 meh 13:28:27 ehird, don't think so 13:28:27 I'll just re-run it 13:28:36 oh wait 13:28:41 yes I think it is insensitive 13:28:55 ehird, make sure you fix the typo in the if too if it was there 13:29:00 Of course 13:29:08 ehird, and every place it may be used 13:29:14 ...wait, what typo in the if? 13:29:22 I fixed the one you s///d 13:29:29 That's the line I pasted 13:29:46 ehird, well yes, I meant if you typoed the first set as well as the one inside? 13:29:48 I wasn't sure 13:30:00 Nope 13:30:06 It's an else now, anyway 13:30:10 86% 13:30:15 well check that one inside the else 13:30:19 (I started it on "I'll just re-run it") 13:30:27 (Just making sure you realize how damn slow process spawning is on Windows) 13:30:34 ehird, I can do nothing about cygwin being slow 13:30:40 Just saying :P 13:30:49 I'm surprised Chrome is so snappy, spawning a process on every tab and all. 13:30:55 ehird, plus there is a way around it. A horrible way 13:31:01 user space processes using threads 13:31:05 not a sane idea 13:31:32 but not impossible 13:31:49 ehird, what do you think about that? 13:33:01 -!- ehird_ has joined. 13:33:11 Heh, and just at the crucial moment my internet blinks 13:33:17 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.). 13:33:19 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 13:33:25 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:33:40 hm 13:33:41 -!- ehird has joined. 13:33:43 I'm surprised Chrome is so snappy, spawning a process on every tab and all. 13:33:43 ehird, plus there is a way around it. A horrible way 13:33:43 user space processes using threads 13:33:43 not a sane idea 13:33:43 but not impossible 13:33:43 ehird, what do you think about that? 13:33:49 then 13:33:51 Heh, and just at the crucial moment my internet blinks 13:33:55 nothing else after that 13:34:00 I was considering that 13:34:02 But it would lead to crappiness 13:34:07 ehird, agreed 13:34:08 Anyway, AnMaster: Bad news. 13:34:10 It linked, but 13:34:12 Elliott@Elliott-PC ~/cfunge/build 13:34:14 $ ./cfunge.exe 13:34:15 FATAL: No file provided. 13:34:17 we unleashed a horror upon the world. 13:34:18 :D 13:34:24 ehird, hm 13:34:25 It is known as "cfunge.exe". 13:34:30 yep horrible 13:34:34 cfunge -h runs without problems 13:34:37 as for binaries, I don't do linux binaries either 13:34:39 just source 13:34:52 I used to provide binaries, but stopped 13:34:56 Yah, but there's no single Linux binary format thingy 13:35:03 ehird, sure there is, ELF 13:35:03 And also this is a bitch to set up :P 13:35:04 Anyway 13:35:09 Shall I run an example? 13:35:13 ehird, sure. 13:35:14 hello.bf time! 13:35:19 ehird, as well as mycology 13:35:25 hello.bf runs 13:35:41 ehird, need to test mycology, check env variables and path separator especially 13:35:43 AnMaster: Gasp; it takes around 0.1s total 13:35:49 Because of the process overhead :P 13:35:49 ehird, what does? 13:35:54 hello.bf 13:35:57 ah 13:36:02 count.b98 works 13:36:15 prime.bf works, time for wumpus 13:36:15 nothing unexpected if one of them works 13:36:20 Sure it is 13:36:22 well that would test input 13:36:25 The freakin' thing is running on Windows 13:36:28 With only minimal patches 13:36:39 * ehird falls into a pit 13:36:41 ehird, yes, but what I expect is that mycology system info will break 13:36:44 You should bundle Mycology. 13:36:46 Anyway. 13:36:49 Downloading it. 13:37:33 ehird, you could pastebin the output, might be easiest, I'm used to looking at the output to see the expected or unexpected 13:38:15 ehird, tests/perl.b98 might be good to try too. And tests/sysexec.b98 13:38:31 tests/testncrsterm.b98 too 13:38:35 Oh, you have a tests/ 13:38:50 ehird, well mostly stuff that mycology doesn't test. Sometimes output may be cryptic 13:39:02 there are often comments in the files 13:39:06 perl.b98 just sits there. 13:39:12 Can't type anything on the keyboard. 13:39:14 ehird, is perl installed? 13:39:19 in cygwin 13:39:20 Now that I check, no. 13:39:22 I'll fix that. 13:39:28 ehird, hm still shouldn't hang as such 13:39:31 weird 13:39:45 Maybe it's _exit failing or something. 13:39:47 will have to debug that 13:40:17 ehird, I have no idea, I'll have to test under linux without perl in path 13:40:40 Installing stuff. 13:40:45 ehird, ah wait, it is the test program that is broken without perl 13:40:49 endless reflect loop 13:41:08 Thought it'd be something like that. ^C worked. 13:41:40 AnMaster: perl.b98 works 13:41:42 hi6 13:41:43 Hello world! 13:41:45 1 13:41:46 5934 13:41:52 right, expected 13:41:59 sysexec works 13:42:20 oh? hm 13:42:25 I have no testncrsterm. 13:42:32 ehird, err wait, that was half written 13:42:40 so didn't commit yet 13:42:41 sec 13:42:44 sigfpe outputs "Finished" 13:43:14 ehird, the ncrs term one is http://pastebin.ca/1563092 13:43:51 Uh oh: TERM failed to load. 13:43:58 ehird, I will be interested in if it does one or more of 1) crashes 2) messes up your terminal 3) fails in some other way 13:43:59 Oh. 13:44:01 ehird, that is interesting 13:44:03 It's because I'm using cmd.exe, probably. 13:44:09 Not a very standard terminal. 13:44:14 I'll try the Windows port of rxvt that Cygwin has. 13:44:17 ehird, or ncurses wasn't detected at compile time 13:44:19 (non-X11) 13:44:23 err 13:44:26 configure time 13:44:26 AnMaster: I doubt it; I have ncurses 13:44:27 I mean 13:44:31 ehird, the headers too? 13:44:36 I think so. 13:44:39 I'll check. 13:44:47 ehird, what does ./cfunge.exe -v 13:44:48 print 13:44:50 the first line 13:44:52 to be specific 13:45:01 cfunge.exe not found :P but build/cfunge.exe -v, 13:45:13 -ncurses 13:45:13 ehird, ah well right, didn't know what directory you were in 13:45:15 interesting 13:45:20 ehird, so no ncurses detected 13:45:22 * ehird looks at packages 13:45:34 pdcurses is more common than ncurses for DOS/Windows, IIRC 13:45:44 Yeah, no libncurses-devel. 13:45:46 ais523: cygwin 13:45:48 AnMaster: did you specify ncurses in particular? or just a curses-alike in general? 13:46:00 ais523: cygwin 13:46:08 ehird: yes, I noticed first time 13:46:08 ais523, I use the macro provided with cmake to check for it 13:46:18 set(CURSES_NEED_NCURSES TRUE) 13:46:18 find_package(Curses) 13:46:20 ncurses even 13:46:23 AnMaster: btw, on my copy cygwin building works with no changes 13:46:25 because I needed that for something 13:46:27 forgot the details 13:46:28 you can ccmake like usual 13:46:30 I disable 64-bit cells though 13:46:37 but it means it's currently working very well 13:46:54 ehird, I want to see mycology output though 13:47:01 Yes, after I recompile 13:47:04 right 13:47:25 Then I'll fix any y-like errors in Mycology, fix all the warnings and tada. Cygwin ready. 13:47:39 The nice thing is that cfunge.exe will work as long as you put cygwin1.dll in the same directory. 13:47:51 So it's as close to "native" as cfunge'll ever get. 13:48:00 ehird, hm wait about perl, it seems E does indeed lock up. Which is not expected 13:48:03 so a bug there 13:48:51 ehird, well there are some possible issues in mycology output, possibly some stuff in sysinfo.c needs to be changed 13:49:27 That's what I mean. 13:51:02 -ncurses again 13:51:04 queer 13:51:22 hm. check in ccmake for ncurses vars 13:51:39 do they say NOT FOUND there? 13:51:44 possibly the not found was cached 13:52:10 I should charge for windows cfunge binaries 13:52:17 who would buy them? 13:52:21 it's a time consuming process! 13:52:24 ais523: stop interrupting my jokes 13:53:53 what is the possible exit codes of perl itself? 13:54:02 are* 13:54:13 0-255 13:54:21 well, ok, so no reserved ones 13:54:23 sigh 13:54:28 I just meant 13:54:33 perl -e 'exit 34;' 13:54:35 :P 13:54:43 ehird, I meant for stuff like syntax error and so on 13:54:45 AnMaster: Well, USE_NCURSES is on 13:54:58 ehird, try in the advanced list. there should be some path to ncurses library and so on 13:55:09 It knows where curses is, and ncurses 13:55:12 CURSES_CURSES_LIBRARY /lib64/libcurses.so 13:55:12 CURSES_EXTRA_LIBRARY CURSES_EXTRA_LIBRARY-NOTFOUND 13:55:12 CURSES_FORM_LIBRARY /usr/lib64/libform.so 13:55:12 CURSES_HAVE_CURSES_H /usr/include/curses.h 13:55:13 but not where CURSES_EXTRA_LIBRARY is 13:55:15 stuff like that 13:55:17 yep 13:55:18 ehird, well that is normal 13:55:21 got all that bling 13:55:36 CURSES_INCLUDE_PATH /usr/include 13:55:36 CURSES_LIBRARY /lib64/libcurses.so 13:55:36 CURSES_NCURSES_LIBRARY /lib64/libncurses.so 13:55:40 follows below that 13:55:44 here 13:55:53 CURSES_CURSES_H_PATH */usr/include 13:55:55 CURSES_CURSES_LIBRARY */lib/libcurses.dll.a 13:55:57 CURSES_EXTRA_LIBRARY *CURSES_EXTRA_LIBRARY-NOTFOUND 13:55:58 CURSES_FORM_LIBRARY */lib/libform.dll.a 13:56:00 CURSES_HAVE_CURSES_H */usr/include/curses.h 13:56:01 ehird, ah, those * 13:56:01 CURSES_INCLUDE_PATH */usr/include 13:56:03 CURSES_LIBRARY */lib/libcurses.dll.a 13:56:03 newly detected 13:56:04 CURSES_NCURSES_LIBRARY */lib/libncurses.dll.a 13:56:06 I think 13:56:09 Yes, I just ran c 13:56:09 so try c again 13:56:16 ehird, and then g to generate again 13:56:17 Yes 13:56:20 That's what I did before :P 13:56:22 But okay 13:56:32 ehird, well, try it once more just in case... 13:56:34 Did switching to advanced mode detect them or something? 13:56:42 ehird, that wouldn't make sense 13:57:10 Well, it compiled TERM.c without warnings or errors 13:57:19 But it's still -ncurses 13:57:25 ehird, hm what the hell 13:57:34 Doesn't "TERM failed to load." just mean, like, can't initialize ncurses? 13:57:44 ehird, sec 13:57:59 ehird, that or the fingerprint didn't exist 13:58:06 I'll install rxvt 13:58:11 as in, TERM.c contains a huge ifdef around everything in it 13:58:30 ah 13:58:42 ehird, try: 13:58:47 cfunge.exe -f 13:58:53 see if TERM is listed there 13:59:00 Nope. 13:59:14 ehird, then it isn't in the binary, thus ifdefed ouyt 13:59:16 out* 13:59:24 and I don't know why if ncurses was detected 13:59:53 ehird, did you press c again after those * were there? or just g right away? 14:00:16 I think some older versions of cmake had some issue with... hm... 14:00:24 c again, yes. 14:00:34 right, this shouldn't happen then 14:00:59 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 14:01:02 CHECK_INCLUDE_FILE(term.h HAVE_TERM_H) 14:01:03 oh wait 14:01:07 that is probably cached 14:01:27 ehird, well, I think part of the "not found" is still cached 14:01:39 I reset everything 14:01:54 ehird, removed CMakeCache.txt ? 14:02:08 Everything in build 14:02:11 hm 14:02:11 ok 14:02:20 ehird, sorry, I can't make head or tail out of this 14:04:00 It's claerly magi. 14:04:02 magic. 14:04:04 clearly. 14:05:49 well yes since it works here. Atm I'm fixing the inf loop in perl bug 14:05:49 ehird: Still working on getting cfunge to work? :-P 14:06:07 Yes. 14:06:09 ehird, still you could already run it on the main mycology, just not mycoterm 14:06:41 Alright. 14:06:51 Deewiant: It works, just it isn't detecting ncurses. 14:07:44 Detecting? 14:07:55 CMake fail or #ifdef fail or what? 14:07:56 ... 14:07:57 detecting 14:07:59 who knows 14:08:33 Deewiant, unable to reproduce it here on linux. 14:08:44 hm 14:08:54 Yes, you tend to say that when people do stuff on Windows. 14:08:57 ehird, is there a term.h 14:09:00 in /usr/include 14:09:08 No. 14:09:12 ehird, aha, where is it? 14:09:21 some directory under /usr/include? 14:09:22 I don't think it's anywhere. 14:09:30 I don't know, though. 14:09:31 ncurses/? 14:09:33 sys/? 14:09:33 ehird, then TERM won't work, term.h is here a part of ncurses 14:09:46 ncurses/term.h 14:09:52 ehird, that exists? 14:09:57 hm 14:10:30 because I only have term.h in /usr/inclyde 14:10:33 include* 14:10:36 Inclyde! 14:10:49 Anyway, I'm installing vi now so I can tell you what's in there. 14:10:56 Well, vim. 14:10:56 oh and the wide char /usr/include/ncursesw/term.h 14:11:05 No widechar on Cygwin. 14:11:12 Hasn't been ported, etc. 14:11:14 ah 14:11:30 ehird, well did you say /usr/include/ncurses/term.h exists? 14:11:31 /* 14:11:33 ** term.h -- Definition of struct term 14:11:35 */ 14:11:36 Yah? 14:11:46 ehird, looks right 14:11:52 issue is, where to check for it 14:11:57 CHECK_INCLUDE_FILE(term.h HAVE_TERM_H) 14:11:58 works here 14:11:59 CHECK_INCLUDE_FILE(term.h HAVE_TERM_H) 14:12:01 Yeah 14:12:04 Can it have multiple entries? 14:12:06 Like 14:12:08 CHECK_INCLUDE_FILE(term.h HAVE_TERM_H) 14:12:09 ehird, trying to remember 14:12:11 CHECK_INCLUDE_FILE(ncurses/term.h HAVE_TERM_H) 14:12:17 Or 14:12:19 actually 14:12:21 we need to know which one 14:12:22 So 14:12:24 Do it separatel 14:12:26 y 14:12:27 then do an OR 14:12:30 ehird, it will need adjustment in the C file too 14:12:35 Yes 14:13:42 programmer's notepad has a neat feature where if you select something, it highlights all the occurrences in the file of that term 14:13:45 not that I've used it, but 14:14:31 AnMaster: -DCURSES_TERM_HEADER=foo or a -D for each one? 14:14:40 i.e. #include CURSES_TERM_HEADER or an ifdef 14:14:45 an ifdef is more conventional but more work 14:14:46 ehird, I'm writing a check atm 14:14:54 But so am I :P 14:15:29 Done. 14:16:03 Is there an elseifdef? 14:16:20 Eh, don't need it 14:16:43 AnMaster: Patch done. 14:16:49 just results in 14:16:50 ehird, done too 14:16:51 #ifdef TERM_H_IN_NCURSES 14:16:53 # include 14:16:55 #else 14:16:57 # include 14:16:58 #endif 14:17:00 Mine is better :-P 14:17:05 ehird, hey, how did you copy my name for that 14:17:06 exactly 14:17:08 :D 14:17:14 exact same C code too 14:17:18 Pastebin the cmake code you did for it 14:17:21 I bet it's identical 14:18:01 http://pastebin.ca/1563129 14:18:20 Oh, yours is better. But I used HAVE_NCURSES_TERM_H as a name too. 14:18:30 AnMaster: Push yours and tell me how to pull it? 14:18:34 can't test it, since my system has it in term.h 14:19:00 ehird, sec. but you will have to merge since you have locally commited stuff, and it won't let you merge if you have locally uncommited changes 14:19:10 Can't it automatically merge? 14:19:31 ehird, well yes, that is what merge does. It just refuses to do a plain pull 14:19:45 and you have to commit the merge. Hey, hg is even stranger 14:19:53 No, that's regular 14:20:01 Anyway, committed what I was sitting on 14:20:03 Both hg and git can do a rebase 14:21:02 Deewiant, I think bzr can too nowdays, haven't tried it though 14:21:41 I'm considering switching to darcs one of these days if it gets faster and starts handling stuff like chmod 14:21:43 ehird, bzr pull btw 14:21:48 I think it will remember branch location 14:21:50 if not 14:21:57 bzr pull --remember lp:cfunge/trunk 14:21:59 ~/cfunge$ bzr pull 14:22:01 Using saved parent location: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~anmaster/cfunge/main/ 14:22:03 bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: "http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~anmaster/cfunge/main/". 14:22:05 ehird, right 14:22:06 err 14:22:09 Doing what you said. 14:22:13 that's the annoying thing about darcs; it isn't production-ready yet, and I fear it never will be 14:22:14 ehird, do the second command 14:22:18 but it is /almost/ good enough... 14:22:26 because that is my fault when messing with the lp branch after you branched 14:22:37 ais523: I've mainly come to appreciate its UI, and chunks are oh-so-good 14:22:38 bzr pull --remember lp:cfunge/trunk 14:22:40 should work 14:22:41 ehird, ^ 14:22:47 ais523: Now if only it had the internal architecture of git 14:22:57 AnMaster: that's what I did; merging now 14:23:04 Tada. 14:23:12 ehird, right. Any conflicts? 14:23:16 and commit the merge btw 14:23:21 Done. 14:23:23 And no. 14:23:23 (after fixing conflicts) 14:23:25 I'll test this now. 14:23:26 good 14:23:43 well does ncurses work now? you may need to delete the results from cached checks 14:23:58 I'm totally re-cmaking. 14:24:12 oh and I expect you to sign your own commits with gpg right? ;P 14:24:16 * AnMaster runs 14:24:33 :P 14:24:58 AnMaster: But how can you trust my key? Coming within any significant radius of me is dangerous! 14:25:36 ehird, I don't know. :P 14:26:36 Hey. 14:26:38 You missed a bit. 14:26:41 NCRS includes term.h 14:26:45 oh it does? 14:26:48 well whops *fixes* 14:27:12 where is ncurses.h btw? 14:27:34 /usr/include, and yet ncurses is in /lib. 14:27:39 But then /usr/lib = /lib :-P 14:28:19 pushed fix for that too 14:28:55 no revisions to pull 14:29:41 AnMaster: . 14:29:53 ehird, oh sorry, I think launchpad has a cache delay 14:30:09 ehird, try again in a few minutes 14:30:20 lame 14:30:25 ehird, agreed 14:30:54 i mean, github doesn't have any caches or delays or anything, and I'm sure launchpad isn't much more popular 14:30:57 maybe bzr just sucks a lot :P 14:31:08 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StorageTek_tape_formats 14:31:17 A terabyte tape on one reel. Holy fuck! 14:31:21 62s load time :P 14:31:47 It costs $37,000 apparently. 14:32:09 AnMaster: still not through 14:32:16 ehird, hm 14:33:36 62s load time :P <-- that is quite a bit. What about speed once it is loaded? 14:33:47 RTFA 14:34:29 AnMaster: are you sure you pushed it? 14:34:33 to the trunk? 14:34:54 ehird, yep. But indeed the delay is longer than usual 14:35:14 ehird, and I just checked with the http url myself, I see the change there now, sure it isn't some isp cache? 14:35:25 https* 14:35:31 I'm using http. 14:35:31 or http 14:35:32 hm 14:35:38 ehird, well I see it for both 14:36:14 :\ 14:36:16 :/ 14:36:26 ehird, I guess isp cache, wait a few more minutes? 14:36:32 my isp doesn't cache 14:36:37 mhm 14:36:41 odd then 14:38:10 Finally. 14:38:11 there it is. 14:38:13 *There 14:38:29 ehird, right 14:38:33 Build time. 14:39:06 ehird, and then pastebin mycology output 14:39:24 oh as well as testing if that ncrsterm test program works 14:39:55 "The reason I ask is for readability reasons I'd prefer long names" // god, I hate this reasoning 14:40:29 directories(), or dirs() if the surrounding code handles directories a lot, is so, so superior to GetDirectoryList() or whatever 14:41:18 AnMaster: you should default USE_64BIT to off for 32-bit machines 14:41:19 well 14:41:21 32-bit compiles 14:41:40 why? 14:41:56 because a 32-bit funge should use its native, fast integer type? 14:42:05 "The reason I ask is for readability reasons I'd prefer long names" // god, I hate this reasoning <-- where is that from 14:42:15 "I work for Microsoft as a developer, and worked on Vista and Windows 7. AMA." 14:42:15 ehird, hm ok. 14:42:28 the guy who made me remove a link to pirate windows 7 with his ":-(" 14:42:30 :P 14:42:44 ehird, 64 bit is a good default to make funge programs not assume that everything is 32-bit 14:42:48 AnMaster: guess what 14:42:50 to find more bugs 14:42:51 TERM doesn't compile cleanly 14:42:56 ehird, oh? what error? 14:42:59 also, that's a good implementor's default 14:43:06 not a good user's default; after all, you claim cfunge is fast 14:43:16 invalid lvalue in assignment at line 172 14:43:18 I'll take a look 14:43:19 ehird, hm even 64-bit one beats ccbi iirc 14:43:34 So? :P 14:43:38 cur_term = NULL; 14:43:39 hm 14:43:43 All that microoptimization is going to waste 14:43:45 what the hell is cur_term for you then 14:44:05 It's before that 14:44:07 Stupid cpp shit 14:44:20 ehird, didn't you say 172? 14:44:33 cpp gets it wr ong sometimes 14:44:36 ah 14:44:38 so what line is it 14:44:50 Oh, wait. 14:44:52 it is that line 14:44:54 nm 14:44:56 extern NCURSES_EXPORT_VAR(TERMINAL *) cur_term; 14:45:04 here in /usr/include/term.h 14:45:15 ncwrap_cur_term() 14:45:27 eh 14:45:29 what 14:45:30 perhaps you should just remove that NULL assignment 14:45:32 it isn't needed is it? 14:45:42 ehird, it will break other stuff badly on linux 14:45:48 why? 14:45:49 like, mycology's TERM and NCRS test 14:45:54 hmm 14:45:56 ehird, because it results in segfault 14:46:12 ehird, NCRS and TERM interacts badly unless you take some weird steps 14:46:14 -!- adam_d has joined. 14:46:16 The del_curterm routine frees the space pointed to by oterm and makes 14:46:18 it available for further use. If oterm is the same as cur_term, refer- 14:46:20 ences to any of the terminfo boolean, numeric, and string variables 14:46:21 thereafter may refer to invalid memory locations until another se- 14:46:22 tupterm has been called. 14:46:25 AnMaster: seems like setting it to NULL doesn't help 14:46:30 officially, it can still be random memory 14:46:41 ehird, well yes it helps, because that makes other stuff re-initialise it 14:46:56 ehird, also, the cur_term itself is a pointer. 14:47:10 Cite where POSIX requires cur_term to be an lvalue 14:47:12 issue is, if it isn't NULL, then ncurses thinks it is valid 14:47:16 at least here 14:48:03 ehird, no idea if it does. I used man pages for this stuff I think 14:48:47 Welp, setting it to NULL isn't an option and obviously a conditional hack isn't preferable 14:48:51 Are you sure it breaks if you remove that line? 14:49:00 ehird, thing is, find another solution that works when del_curterm() doesn't set cur_term to NULL, and when ncurses itself only re-initialises it if it is NULL 14:49:22 ehird, also, yes, but let me double check it 14:49:23 Force re-initialization 14:50:43 AnMaster: maintain local state, and if that local state says need reinit, do so 14:50:45 ehird, yep it does break. as for forcing that... 14:51:09 ehird, it isn't that easy. because the state that gets messed up is inside ncurses itself. 14:51:25 Sounds like ncurses is broken 14:51:43 Doesn't it have a function for this sort of stuff 14:52:29 ehird, well alternative is to not delete the term at all, and get a ~2 kb memory leak every time a NCRS function is called 14:52:41 free(cur_term) 14:52:55 Evil? Yes. Might work? Youbetcha. 14:53:40 ehird, that will leave it returning a broken pointer which will also result in the same issue. Plus that cur_term is here a struct containing pointers, so there will be more mem leak 14:53:44 and various other things 14:53:48 but well hm 14:53:54 Look 14:53:56 ehird, does removing that line work for you though? 14:54:01 ncurses must have a dowhatyoudoifitisnull() 14:54:07 if so, #ifndef __CYGWIN__ 14:54:16 I want to avoid that 14:54:35 You're not supposed to mix ncurses and lower-level stuff 14:54:50 It's understandable that it doesn't always work 14:54:58 Deewiant, indeed, so I would recommend not testing TERM and NCRS in the same mycology test 14:55:09 Noo 14:55:11 I like evil 14:55:16 AnMaster: They work for me on both Linux and Windows 14:55:50 (Without any cur_term hackery) 14:56:02 Deewiant, and it didn't for me. 14:56:27 It? 14:56:38 I don't think you've tried the CCBI2 impl 14:56:39 Deewiant, TERM followed by NCRS as in mycoterm 14:56:44 that it 14:57:45 why does cfunge do the hacks? 14:58:05 ... because otherwise it segfaults at mycoterm.b98 14:58:26 so fix that 14:58:33 -!- adam_d_ has joined. 14:58:39 ehird, yep that is what I did, with cur_term 14:58:47 No, you hacked around it 14:59:05 ehird, there is no fix afaik. As Deewiant said: 14:59:07 You're not supposed to mix ncurses and lower-level stuff 14:59:07 It's understandable that it doesn't always work 14:59:24 How does ccbi2 do it 14:59:33 I don't know 14:59:45 setupterm(null, fileno(stdout), &err); 14:59:48 putp(enter_ca_mode); 14:59:56 putp(exit_ca_mode); 14:59:56 reset_shell_mode(); 15:00:07 Do that 15:00:35 Deewiant, when do you do that? 15:00:57 First two lines on load, second two lines on unload. 15:01:29 Deewiant, reset_shell_mode? 15:01:32 hm 15:02:00 Deewiant, on unload of TERM? 15:02:11 Deewiant, that doesn't make sense, what if TERM is loaded twice? 15:02:33 Of course it's not done if it's already loaded. 15:02:34 or loaded, and then copied around with FING or such 15:02:46 Deewiant, so what "unload" is that 15:03:00 "No more TERM instructions available" 15:03:46 Deewiant, how do you know that? I have no facility for tracking that. I do the relevant commands at exit if TERM was ever initialised 15:04:05 I haven't fully implemented it myself yet 15:04:38 Currently it's just done if TERM is unloaded with ), which is obviously error-prone 15:05:06 Deewiant, ehird: anyway I have to do some stuff before the shops close, going out for maybe half an hour. cya. 15:05:58 Eh, I have +ncurses now 15:06:01 Let's try mycology 15:06:04 after the tests 15:06:45 AnMaster: incomplete test just clears the screen, I guess that's correct 15:07:26 "Windows Firewall has blocked some features of cfunge on all public and private networks." 15:07:31 ok, now I really have to leave. I'll read what you said when I get back. At most half an hour. Probably more like 20 minutes 15:07:55 ehird: I guess it doesn't like it opening a socket and then connecting to it itself :-P 15:08:09 It wants me to grant it permission to talk on the local network :P 15:08:30 Anyway, all GOOD or UNDEF so far 15:08:31 Checking y 15:08:42 That the system's path separator is / 15:08:51 That the command-line arguments were: [ "../mycology/mycology.b98" ] 15:09:02 is fail 15:09:04 / is 15:09:09 Nope 15:09:10 Cygwin, man 15:09:15 Oh, right 15:09:23 Don't say "LOL C:", that's a translation to /cygdrive/c 15:09:25 *a translation 15:09:27 stupid space 15:09:30 That the environment variables are: [all correct] 15:09:41 BAD: opening 'mycorand.bf' with i failed 15:09:43 Guess I should cd 15:12:34 Deewiant: Seems to have worked thist ime 15:12:36 *this time 15:12:37 the socket 15:12:56 Yep 15:12:59 All GOOD or UNDEF 15:13:21 Mycology takes ~0.33s total. 15:13:35 100x worse than on Linux :P 15:13:39 ...more or less. 15:14:11 Most of that time will be spent spawning the two PERL processes 15:14:17 Probably 15:14:35 Now mycouser and mycoterm. 15:14:44 Deewiant: but hello world takes like 0.1s 15:14:51 I guess it counts the spawning of cfunge itself 15:16:12 Deewiant: mycoterm is working, except I didn't get a beep. Then again, I have no audio drivers installed. 15:16:20 Yep, it worked. 15:16:33 ^source 15:16:34 http://git.zem.fi/fungot 15:16:35 >:) 15:16:51 Oh god 15:16:55 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:17:22 What, why? 15:17:30 fungot on cfunge on windows :-P 15:17:32 ehird: and you can copy-paste out of it. 15:17:36 :-D 15:17:39 :D 15:17:41 You can indeed 15:17:54 The wonders never cease. 15:18:06 Also, Cygwin counts only as half of "on Windows" :-P 15:18:33 Eh, it should be quite easy to run on plain Windows. 15:18:58 Lots of POSIX assumptions in that code 15:18:58 You'd have to use something other than mmap(), replace the regexp library, and replace the PERL forking with a Windows process spawn. 15:19:07 Other than that it'd just be a bunch of minor incompatibilities 15:19:07 Replace TERM 15:19:12 Replace environ 15:19:18 Deewiant: You can get ncurses for windows, no? 15:19:27 Also, Windows has environment variables 15:19:28 No, you can get PDcurses 15:19:32 Meh 15:19:33 Close enough 15:19:37 Shouldn't require much changing 15:19:44 And TERM doesn't use curses 15:19:56 your mom. 15:19:59 Or I guess the term.h terminfo stuff is provided by curses these days 15:20:04 +and 15:20:18 But it's not provided by PDCurses :-P 15:20:35 that's just one fingerprint, though 15:20:39 the bulk of the code is just algorithmic C 15:20:48 Sure, yep 15:21:09 but really, I'd just use ccbi2 15:21:28 this was almost as hard as setting up D :-P 15:21:35 :-P 15:21:48 CCBI2 doesn't compile on DMD 15:21:58 LDC is available for Windows 15:22:03 And it requires exceptions, which LDC doesn't provide. 15:22:14 (Because LLVM doesn't.) 15:22:16 What do you use it with? GDC? 15:22:23 Hah, wishful thinking 15:22:36 For the moment, I don't use it on Windows. :-P 15:22:36 You don't compile it? :P 15:22:48 Oh, you mean it doesn't provide it ON WINDOWS. 15:23:28 Yes, I do indeed. 15:23:41 It does provide exceptions on non-Windows, or at least Linux. 15:24:11 Sigh, I'm 0.0.3 versions behin on git, and yet I can't seem to clone fungot's repository. 15:24:12 ehird: though scheme snakes don't have heads and tails. they have no parents ( awwww) 15:24:17 :( 15:24:21 You make me sad, fungot. 15:24:21 ehird: if i could design one... but ( x y z 15:24:33 You don't like the parentheses in Scheme, fungot? 15:24:42 Cold personality. 15:24:53 Deewiant: does git clone http://git.zem.fi/fungot.git work for you? 15:26:14 fatal: http://git.zem.fi/fungot.git/info/refs not found 15:26:14 Deewiant: ok. even better, seed it with the quotes, hm ok, well, with fnord comments for obscure parts. then an automatic doc generator will write the software in question 15:26:20 git version 1.6.0.2.1172.ga5ed0 on Windows 15:26:27 same for me, basically 15:26:36 I like using fnord comments for obscure parts 15:26:41 :D 15:26:59 I like how you write the comments, and then the automatic DOC generator writes the software from it 15:27:21 That's nice, too 15:28:58 * ehird gives cfunge a blanket loophole through the firewall 15:29:04 back 15:29:20 Oh, it's already there 15:29:22 ha 15:29:24 *Ha 15:30:06 Well, cfunge is using up half my CPU even though I've given it full access to THE INTERWEBS 15:30:45 Maybe I broke it by changing the command prefix. 15:30:58 Windows-git doesn't have colour :-/ 15:31:18 Oh, of course 15:31:20 Alignment 15:31:41 ehird, so where are the patches 15:31:43 or so 15:31:53 AnMaster: Well, I was going to fix the warnings first. 15:31:59 ah good 15:32:10 ehird, three warnings happen on *nix too 15:32:33 Well, fungot is continuously using 50% of my CPU. 15:32:33 ehird: of course that's not something i want to make sure that it's me and not the number of 15:32:48 I guess cygwin is interacting badly with cfunge. 15:33:07 hm very strange 15:33:07 Uh, what's the fungot command to make it say something on IRC? 15:33:08 ehird: how does that old saw go? benchmarks are good for cardiac stuff ( and burning fat etc) and app, the last one 15:33:09 owner 15:33:29 ehird, fungot would be waiting on a socket most of the time 15:33:30 AnMaster: i didn't know i scrolled down at all." :) is it the top level, or behavior of the host os. 15:33:45 which i guess is a busyloop in cygwin or something 15:33:53 anyway 15:33:55 command? 15:34:25 don't remember 15:34:32 try some ul at it to see if it works 15:34:35 at all 15:34:50 * ehird slaps forehead 15:34:53 ehird: what network/channel is ehird-fungot running on 15:34:54 ais523: compare lists exactly how?' you're getting an fnord error, it would've been to have been put to use. and you could possibly use char-whitespace? from r5rs? :) 15:34:57 Forgot to use its custom prefix... 15:35:25 ais523: give it time 15:35:27 I'm not sure it works yet 15:36:00 ehird, did mycorand work? 15:36:04 Yes. 15:36:06 I think. 15:36:13 right 15:36:52 Well, fungot gets stuck after "Looking up your hostname...", I think. I bet it's unix/dos line endings. 15:36:53 ehird: that's what those .s are. 15:36:55 "^raw" is the repeat-it-rawly command, unless you found it already. And of course with your prefix-char there, and the correct owner-string. 15:36:55 Since irc uses \r\n 15:36:57 fungot: oic 15:36:58 ehird: in scheme: 15:37:09 fizzie: it's not responding to any commands, and outputs: 15:37:14 RAW >>> NOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname... <<< 15:37:16 before using 50% CPU 15:37:20 it gets connected, though 15:37:49 That's curious. 15:37:53 ehird, does cygwin use \r\n or \n? 15:37:56 \n 15:37:58 in filse 15:37:59 files 15:38:01 at least 15:38:05 ehird, hm maybe it translates somewhere somehow? 15:38:11 You can configure that in setup.exe 15:38:14 and that messes up stuff 15:38:18 Deewiant: Yes, but setting it the other way is bad 15:38:21 IIRC it says "DO NOT DO THIS" for \r\n 15:38:24 fizzie: Does fungot require \r\n or \n? 15:38:25 ehird: i just mean ( in a different context. 15:38:30 ic 15:38:49 that one even seemed befunge related 15:39:21 The IRC-parsing code accepts anything. (Technically, both \r and \n are treated as message-separators, and empty messages are ignored.) 15:39:59 CLEARLY IT IS GOVERNMENTAL CONSPIRACY OF ESQ. 15:40:14 ESR you mean 15:40:19 Anyway, anyone got anything other than fungot for me to throw this thing at? 15:40:20 ehird: e-mails to his account fnord e-mails to the uni during high school, who cares about repl performance, you want to 15:40:25 AnMaster: he's too braindead to conspire anything. 15:40:48 ehird, hm you should still figure out why fungot fails IMO 15:40:49 AnMaster: i rol with it. you can get? the code is fnord compared to 50+ before me. at 11k/ sec 15:41:01 ^style 15:41:01 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 15:41:03 ah 15:41:12 fizzie: does it require a vocab file 15:41:20 AnMaster: but anything else in the meanwhile? 15:41:23 ehird, what is ESQ? 15:41:28 esquire 15:41:44 I don't think it should, although it might get confused if you say its name and it doesn't have one. 15:42:04 "fungot?" "...?" 15:42:06 ehird: i dont get some practice using these, too.)) the simplest infinite surreal. so many reasons not to use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/ new/ scheme and enter your paste. 15:42:13 Hm, I guess no other interpreter provides FING so you can't trivially check whether it's cfunge or fungot 15:42:13 Deewiant: what would make the installation easier.) ( 2 2) x) bug? when i looked at it 15:42:24 Deewiant, what about CCBI? 15:42:27 does it not have FING? 15:42:29 -!- ehird has set topic: the simplest infinite surreal - http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D. 15:42:29 fungot: If you're going to comment at least say something useful 15:42:29 Deewiant: this one looked like cyrillic but was certainly gibberish in that context. sorry, this is the appropriate one to call 15:42:39 fungot perfectly sloganised us 15:42:40 ehird: ( as well as control codes until you got arithmetic working 15:42:40 AnMaster: No, it does not. 15:42:47 Deewiant, ccbi2? 15:42:54 Haven't done it yet. 15:43:05 ehird, you *could* try porting rc/funge to windows. 15:43:07 :D 15:43:08 "so many reasons not to use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/ new/ scheme and enter your paste." is also an amusing verbosity 15:43:14 AnMaster: it'll probably work in cygwin 15:43:18 Oh right, RC/Funge-98 will have them 15:43:19 Use that 15:43:20 It does 15:43:26 ehird, I think fungot may need a data directory or such 15:43:27 not sure 15:43:27 AnMaster: you can do `which fnord echo?' 15:43:33 AnMaster: not the last time I used it 15:43:36 hm ok 15:43:41 Deewiant: v2 or? 15:43:48 v1 should be fine too, up to you 15:44:05 If you get one RAW line, you should get more, since at that point it's already in the IRC message splitting loop, and any non-interesting-looking message should just be ignored. 15:44:28 fizzie: That's nice. I don't. 15:44:34 hm 15:44:46 ehird, does gdb work under cygwin? 15:45:08 mkdir bin; make and rc funge almost compiles 15:45:10 AnMaster: dunno. 15:45:18 need to install X shit. 15:45:20 headers. 15:45:26 ehird, yep, it uses them 15:45:52 ehird: Remove WIND and some other shit from the makefile 15:46:02 TURT 15:46:07 Maybe nothing else 15:46:33 is there any C++ befunge98 interpreter? 15:46:34 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 15:46:37 But I have windows :P 15:46:39 Stinkhorn 15:46:40 AnMaster: stinkhorn, jitfunge 15:46:42 hm 15:46:44 Well 15:46:46 Interpreter 15:46:46 ehird, *interpreter* 15:46:47 jitfunge is C++? 15:46:50 AnMaster: you could probably literally translate cfunge to C++ relatively quickly 15:46:51 Deewiant, yep 15:47:01 ais523, it uses quite a few C99-isms 15:47:12 Which are all quite easily translated to C++ 15:47:14 The IRC message parsing loop might end up trapped in a CPU-wasting cycle if the SOCK 'R' keeps returning 0 or some-such. (If it reflects, it'll fail cleanly.) Of course it could fail elsewhere, too; after that "RAW" output it goes through the whole cycle of "if-elseif-else"-chainery to test for commands. 15:47:19 ais523, and some variables collide with c++ keywords and such iirc 15:47:25 s/// 15:47:27 AnMaster: that's easily fixable 15:47:32 Deewiant, variable length array? 15:47:41 keyword collisions can be fixed via #define, as long as you don't use the C++ keywords with their C++ meaning too 15:47:43 Deewiant, and variable length array at end of struct 15:47:46 err 15:47:48 what was the name 15:47:54 ah... flexible array member 15:48:01 Former is std::vector 15:48:16 Latter is std::vector too, I guess, although I think that should work in C++ as-is 15:48:24 Deewiant, the syntax won't 15:48:33 s/// 15:48:48 Deewiant, anyway what about returning a struct on the stack? constructed in the return 15:48:48 as in 15:49:01 struct s; 15:49:01 GCC does 0-length arrays as a GNU extension probably in C++ mode too, and those are pretty identical to flexible array members. 15:49:04 s.foo = bar; 15:49:05 return s; 15:49:12 return (struct foo) { .x = blah, .y = whatever }; 15:49:17 s/// 15:49:20 that is, allocated on the stack 15:49:28 See what I just ddid. 15:49:30 -d 15:49:34 Deewiant, hm 15:49:38 ddi? 15:49:59 AnMaster: That is pure syntax sugar. 15:50:02 Deewiant, and &((struct foo) { .x = blah, .y = whatever }) ? 15:50:07 well syntax sugar too 15:50:13 Deewiant, still, quite a lot of that to translate 15:50:16 s->foo = bar; 15:50:19 s//// 15:50:19 return s; 15:50:21 /////////////// 15:50:25 ///////////////////g 15:50:29 s////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 15:50:31 Done. 15:50:33 0-length arrays are rather useless when you have flexible array members 15:50:34 ehird, the last one was for use in function calls 15:50:35 SO MANY FUCKING FORWARDSLASHES, IT CAN PORT ANY CODEBASE 15:50:50 xfunge.c:173: error: conflicting types for 'New_Window' 15:50:52 funge.h:407: error: previous declaration of 'New_Window' was here 15:50:54 repeat for 394857349573495 types 15:50:56 oh boy 15:51:04 ehird: You shouldn't be compiling xfunge.c at all 15:51:10 Why nt 15:51:12 not 15:51:13 I want it 15:51:15 PREFIX INT New_Window(INT x,INT y,INT wd,INT h); 15:51:17 -.h 15:51:20 Deewiant, what about the restrict keyword? 15:51:26 Well if you do, I won't stop you :-P 15:51:30 AnMaster: Remove it, it's just optimization. 15:51:33 int New_Window(INT x,INT y,INT wd,INT h) 15:51:36 -.c 15:51:40 Deewiant, hm true 15:51:40 I AM MOST CONFUSED 15:51:47 Maybe int != INT 15:51:51 Maybe... right. 15:51:51 maybe PREFIX = ??? 15:51:51 Deewiant, isn't there some difference for const or so iirc? 15:52:06 Deewiant, oh there are plenty of casts that C++ won't like iirc 15:52:08 #define INT int32_t 15:52:11 That should be fine 15:52:14 Deewiant, or rather, no casts 15:52:19 like in front of all malloc() 15:52:23 PREFIX is extern if not MAIN, but main 15:52:29 * ehird defines INT as int 15:53:00 ext/sgnl.c: In function `signalHandler': 15:53:02 ext/sgnl.c:70: error: dereferencing pointer to incomplete type 15:53:11 if (info != NULL) Push(vMach,info->si_pid); 15:53:13 Huh. 15:53:21 info is a struct siginfo * 15:53:30 Seems very platform-specific there 15:53:54 ehh 15:53:56 Or maybe not, it does seem specced. 15:53:57 -!- Asztal has joined. 15:53:58 how can i just get an rc funge that works 15:54:00 should define it though. 15:54:07 ehird: Remove the shit from the makefile. 15:54:10 Or at least pull in something that contains a definition. 15:54:11 fizzie: it includes that 15:54:13 I done told ya. 15:54:42 ext/rexp.c: In function `Do_REXP': 15:54:44 ext/rexp.c:67: error: `REG_EEND' undeclared (first use in this function) 15:54:46 ext/rexp.c:67: error: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once 15:54:48 ext/rexp.c:67: error: for each function it appears in.) 15:54:49 ext/rexp.c:71: error: `REG_ESIZE' undeclared (first use in this function) 15:54:51 and I can't do without rexp... 15:55:18 You don't need REXP, do you? 15:55:27 fungot 15:55:28 ehird: mobile in the moment. wheee, shiny.') 15:55:29 dude 15:55:31 ignore list 15:55:38 Do you need that 15:55:40 Dude 15:55:42 will it run without it 15:55:44 DUDE 15:55:50 Looking at the code it should 15:55:50 I think fungot shouldn't crash without it, but I probably haven't tested it. 15:55:51 fizzie: no wonder this takes two hours. afterwards i was not pleased. 15:55:52 D00D 15:56:05 duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude 15:56:10 Or maybe not, it does seem specced. <-- yep 15:56:10 fungot: What exactly are you talking about there. 15:56:11 fizzie: what did i do an iterative deepening minimax search with alpha-beta pruning. it's almost tragic. typical. 15:56:12 like whooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa 15:56:12 just checked 15:56:20 fungot: sounds interesting 15:56:20 ehird: i usually have used fnord 15:56:33 so here are the facts, fungot did an iterative deepening minimax search with alpha-beta pruning 15:56:35 ehird: it is the common lisp compiler, traditionally ( and still know a lot of php work 15:56:39 Iterative deepening minimax with alpha-beta pruning > fnord 15:56:41 it takes almost two hours, and he's unhappy with it 15:56:44 very unhappy with it 15:56:48 ehird, anyway si_pid is valid 15:56:50 Deewiant: I hope it isn't literal 15:56:50 says POSIX 15:57:10 POSIX says a lot of things that aren't so 15:57:45 ehird, sure they are, in the same place that your ponies are from 15:59:57 HELP 16:00:08 XWIN OH GOD 16:00:37 Speaking of POSIX, my only pulls in the siginfo_t type if __USE_POSIX is on. Of course that normally is. 16:01:02 PHEW 16:01:14 fizzie, feature testing macros I assume 16:02:52 ehird: are you ok/ 16:03:09 ais523: yes, my computer wasn't for a second 16:03:24 what OS are you on at the moment, by the way? 16:03:25 i may have been a bit overdramatic :P 16:03:27 oh? 16:03:29 ais523: Windows 7 16:03:33 ah 16:03:36 virtualised? 16:03:40 ais523: no, real 16:03:47 is it dual-boot, or the only OS on there? 16:03:52 AnMaster: a console window kept trying to open up, claiming to be xwin, and warping the pointer 16:03:54 then closing immediately 16:03:56 again and again and again 16:04:01 ehird, :D 16:04:03 ais523: dual-boot; the other OS is OS X 16:05:30 Meddle not in the affairs of X-Windows, for they are subtle and quick to anger. 16:05:53 YARR I BE CYGWIN/X 16:06:05 I GON DUN SHIT ALL O'ER YER PEECEE 16:06:21 ...which is why it's being uninstalled as we speak. 16:07:05 do you know of /any/ Windows software which manages to stay reasonably confined to where it ought to be, and uninstalls correctly? 16:07:12 ais523: yes 16:07:29 ah, interesting 16:07:32 Google Chrome, PuTTY, Sumatra PDF, Foxit Reader, um... most things 16:07:37 it isn't hard to make, so I assume that there are marketing reasons not to 16:07:44 just use the system-wide add/remove thingy and it works fine 16:07:52 although generally there's some empty registry keys left, who cares 16:07:57 hmm... allegedly Chrome has some sort of obnoxious auto-auto-update 16:08:12 sort of 16:08:38 ais523: it installs updates automatically, I think 16:08:41 and patches the app in real time 16:08:42 however 16:08:50 the alternative is it bugging you, and you clicking yes blanketly 16:08:52 because you always do 16:08:54 and it's just an annoyance 16:09:00 so I don't think any security is lost 16:09:07 also, you can switch to tracking the beta, etc, in a few clicks 16:09:13 yes 16:09:14 it's quite cool really 16:09:25 Chrome's a very good browser 16:09:25 Windows suffers from not having a consistent update mechanism 16:09:40 I think Windows has its installing mechanism right, actually 16:09:52 Repositories are just too big to maintain yet they'll never be big enough 16:09:57 but 16:10:02 just as you can register a program for uninstalling 16:10:08 you should be able to, with the same system, register it for updating 16:10:33 just a few functions you define and you can look for the updates and install them however you want 16:10:42 and then windows can coordinate updates of all the software you have 16:12:11 anyway, cygwin sucks 16:12:32 ehird, fixed those warnings yet? 16:12:35 I guess I'll fix all the warnings in cfunge, and 16:12:37 sheesh 16:12:43 AnMaster: you know there's one for almost every file right? 16:13:29 ehird, nop, I wasn't aware, oh and there are three you shouldn't spent time on: 16:13:35 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/lib/genx/genx.c: In function ‘storePrefix’: 16:13:35 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/lib/genx/genx.c:386: warning: cast discards qualifiers from pointer target type 16:13:35 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/lib/genx/genx.c: In function ‘declareAttribute’: 16:13:35 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/lib/genx/genx.c:978: warning: cast discards qualifiers from pointer target type 16:13:36 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/input.c: In function ‘input_getint’: 16:13:39 /home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/input.c:104: warning: cannot optimize possibly infinite loops 16:13:41 those 16:14:04 "/home/arvid/src/cfunge/trunk/src/input.c:104: warning: cannot optimize possibly infinite loops" 16:14:11 I misread that as "cannot possibly optimize infinite loops" 16:14:17 :D 16:14:18 ais523, same first time I saw it 16:14:58 oh great, a C++ app that only fail if compiled without -g at -O2 or higher 16:14:59 http://www.info-pack.com/csv2html/ ... 16:15:08 and it is very slow with less than -O2 16:15:14 Deewiant: only $49.95 16:15:19 it is fast until the point of failure at -O2 or higher 16:15:26 and it is a game, so speed matters 16:15:27 ehird: Represents great value! 16:15:37 AnMaster: should i bother fixing warnings in libs? 16:15:45 ehird, depends on what warnings 16:15:58 ehird, also be aware of that those file may have different code formatting. 16:16:09 if I wanted to keep it easy to update 16:16:18 /home/Elliott/cfunge/lib/genx/genx.c:358: warning: implicit declaration of function `snprintf' 16:16:29 /home/Elliott/cfunge/lib/genx/genx.c:358: warning: nested extern declaration of `snprintf' 16:16:35 ehird, err, how the helll 16:16:37 hell* 16:16:39 :0: warning: redundant redeclaration of 'snprintf' 16:16:45 /home/Elliott/cfunge/lib/genx/genx.c:386: warning: cast discards qualifiers from pointer target type 16:16:49 for instance. 16:16:54 ehird, needs fixing, but I have no idea why the snprintf happens 16:16:57 as for the cast one 16:16:58 ignore it 16:17:00 as I said above 16:17:02 an error in is pretty weird 16:17:05 ehird, ^ 16:17:07 why ignore it? 16:17:19 ehird, because it is a known false positive 16:17:22 that I listed above 16:17:29 also, lib errors are useful to know about simply because they sometimes imply you're building it wrong 16:17:39 and there is no sane way to fix it without rewriting genx completely 16:17:55 Elliott@Elliott-PC ~/cfunge/build 16:17:56 Explicit cast? 16:17:57 $ cpp | grep snprintf 16:17:58 #include 16:18:00 int __attribute__((__cdecl__)) snprintf (char *, size_t, const char *, ...) __attribute__ ((__format__ (__printf__, 3, 4))); 16:18:01 I am bewildered 16:18:12 but AnMaster 16:18:18 so many implicit declarations, does it matter? 16:18:19 it works fine 16:18:24 Deewiant, well yes, issue is both const char* and char* goes into the same place, but it keeps track of const-ness in another way 16:18:40 i mean, the errors make no sense 16:18:44 ehird, yep it will if you aren't on 32-bit at least 16:18:47 ehird, and agreed 16:19:01 ehird, check if they are protected by some #ifdef that may fail in the header 16:19:09 feature testing macro not working 16:19:27 add_definitions(-D_POSIX_C_SOURCE=200112L -D_XOPEN_SOURCE=600) 16:19:29 I do have that 16:20:20 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 16:20:28 blh 16:20:42 AnMaster: should I give you what I have so far, btw? 16:21:01 ehird, sure. push the branch somewhere, that is easiest. 16:21:08 where. 16:21:20 ehird, do you have any plain http server still? 16:21:53 with sftp access to? 16:22:06 Elliott@Elliott-PC ~/cfunge/build 16:22:08 $ bzr send --mail-to anmaster@tele2.se 16:22:10 Using saved parent location "http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~anmaster/cfunge/trunk/" to determine what changes to submit. 16:22:11 Bundling 11 revision(s). 16:22:13 4 [main] python 2140 C:\cygwin\bin\python.exe: *** fatal error - unable to remap C:\cygwin\bin\cygbz2-1.dll to same address as parent(0x750000) != 0x7F0000 16:22:14 hm 16:22:14 10 [main] python 3820 fork: child 2140 - died waiting for dll loading, errno 11 16:22:16 bzr: ERROR: [Errno 11] Resource temporarily unavailable 16:22:17 ouch 16:22:17 well that worked. 16:22:21 * ehird tries -o instead 16:22:38 Preferably non-Cygwin bzr 16:22:51 AnMaster: what base revision? 16:23:10 ehird, I don't know when you branched off mine, and since you merged some stuff from mine 16:23:13 hmm, 781 16:23:14 ehird, what about: 16:23:18 -rtag:0.9.0 16:23:23 same thing 16:23:37 bundling 0 revisions 16:23:39 lol 16:23:42 ehird, err 16:23:46 -rtag:0.9.0.. 16:23:50 should work better 16:23:52 forgot to mention that 16:24:08 .. for range there, and no end given, so that is head 16:24:13 Using saved submit location "781" to determine what changes to submit. 16:24:15 bzr: ERROR: Not a branch: "/home/Elliott/cfunge/build/781/". 16:24:17 WHY DO YOU REMEMBER MY MISTAKES 16:24:19 ;_; 16:24:23 ehird, :D 16:25:02 ehird, because you used --remember ? 16:25:07 here it doesn't unless you use that 16:25:08 nope 16:25:41 ehird, well make such a file then, just tell it somewhere else 16:26:29 i lost a key 16:26:34 ehird, hm? 16:26:39 literally 16:26:41 as in, keyboard broke? 16:27:04 i popped o a keycap and it ell down below 16:27:16 ehird, why did you pop one off? 16:27:21 the f one I assume 16:27:32 Pop a less useful one off and put it on the f 16:27:40 AnMaster: i have no idea. 16:27:44 ehird, mhm 16:28:03 search for it them 16:28:04 then* 16:28:16 I mean, it has to be on the floor 16:28:31 i produced an r by pressing down a thing on its dome 16:28:32 There was one keycap I vacuumed off something like four times, for some reason never remembering not to try it again and again. 16:28:41 i am ailure personiied 16:29:34 no sign o lost key 16:29:34 ehird, search on the floor? 16:29:37 hm 16:29:49 ehird, check if it fell into pockets or such 16:29:49 The keycap thieves strike agian. 16:29:51 i am 16:29:53 A giant. 16:29:58 ehird, sure it isn't on the floor? 16:30:11 taken by magic. 16:30:12 what about chair then? 16:30:19 maybe you are sitting on it 16:30:30 myth busted 16:30:42 Maybe you ate it and didn't notice? 16:30:48 possible 16:30:50 Happens all the time! 16:30:54 totally 16:31:03 i was saving it or lunch 16:31:43 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:32:39 ehird, any luck with that send? 16:33:20 kind o ucking priority is getting my key back 16:33:41 fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff 16:33:45 my small inger is small 16:33:48 true story. 16:33:52 finger 16:33:54 yaaaaaaaaay 16:33:58 ffffffffffffffffinger 16:34:02 small inger. 16:34:35 ehird, you found they key? 16:34:44 fffffffffffffffffffffffffffff no just my inger. 16:34:49 ah 16:34:57 ehird, why so many repeats? 16:35:15 inger hard tog eto ut 16:35:20 :-D 16:35:23 heh 16:35:40 finger hard to get out fudge foodle fffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu 16:35:43 ouch. 16:37:56 fuckin a 16:38:00 its fuckin found 16:38:01 so fing f 16:38:04 that i could eat a sound 16:38:10 ehird, where was it? 16:38:45 next to wall. 16:39:02 ah 16:39:27 anyway, make bzr forget 16:41:07 ehird, some file in ~/.bazaar/ I guess 16:41:31 Elliott@Elliott-PC ~/cfunge/build 16:41:33 $ bzr send -rtag:0.9.0.. .. -o changes 16:41:35 Bundling 0 revision(s). 16:42:49 AnMaster: anyway, i have no http server 16:43:01 ehird, hm 16:43:10 ehird, let me look at send docs 16:44:06 hm 16:44:47 works for me, except not like that 16:44:50 drop the r bit 16:44:51 and 16:45:04 hm how do you set branch to compare tpo 16:45:05 to* 16:45:26 bzr: ERROR: no such option: -t 16:45:44 bzr send -o testing_send lp:cfunge/trunk 16:45:45 or so 16:45:46 I think 16:45:49 brb phone 16:47:35 emailed. 16:54:32 * ehird takes a break to try and figure out how to do the gui for his pdf client 16:54:43 back 16:54:57 * AnMaster loads mail client 16:55:10 wait 16:55:11 not yet 16:55:37 glibc is rebuilding, wait a few minutes 16:55:44 ah not even that long 16:55:46 you crazy source distro people 16:56:18 wait 16:56:23 AnMaster: that send doesn't include the revision history 16:56:24 does it? 16:56:50 * AnMaster looks 16:57:28 hm nop 16:57:43 how strange 16:59:07 ehird, you could push it to launchpad ;P 16:59:26 how do i make an account 16:59:28 ehird, also I think the mail is cut off 16:59:46 because it ends in the middle of the bundle itself 16:59:50 hm 17:00:01 there is a diff first, then the bundle 17:00:27 and the bundle is two lines, way to short 17:00:37 Way to short circuit. 17:00:39 Anyway. 17:00:42 Launchpad account. 17:03:39 ehird, go to the main website, click in upper right corner login, then there is a create account on the same page 17:03:40 iirc 17:04:01 Follow the URL in the confirmation e-mail that Launchpad sends and you're done! 17:04:07 i know they're going to pick a password for me. 17:04:11 i hate it when websites do that. 17:04:27 ehird, you need to paste an ssh key into your account to make pushing work 17:04:29 The email address penguinofthegods@gmail.com is already registered in the Launchpad Login Service (used by the Ubuntu shop and other OpenID sites). Please use the same email and password to log into Launchpad. 17:04:35 fuck off, i don't remember that account. 17:04:44 grr 17:04:47 ehird, the email is the account btw 17:04:52 launchpad is still hypocritical 17:05:01 suure, you can use it as an openid and base your entire online identity around it 17:05:05 but LOG IN with one of those things? 17:05:08 oh no no no NO! 17:05:19 ehird, iirc it is a planned feature 17:05:24 AnMaster: great, so i'm the tired joke penguinofthegods 17:05:27 instead of, you know, ehird 17:05:34 this just gets better and better 17:05:44 ehird, wait, you own that email? 17:05:56 erm ... yes? 17:05:58 or are you saying you don't 17:06:00 ehird, cool 17:06:06 how's that cool 17:06:10 cool email I mean 17:06:26 the background is almost like a joke if you don't think about it too much 17:07:41 dcc 17:07:53 then you tell bzr about your login: 17:07:58 dcc 17:08:01 bzr launchpad-login 17:08:09 dcc 17:08:11 ehird, err a sec, I need to change irc client 17:08:13 for dcc to work 17:08:30 there 17:08:32 try now 17:08:54 what is that file btw? 17:09:10 bzr send 17:09:20 ah 17:10:10 yep, a large bundle at the end 17:10:17 guess that contains revisions. 17:10:21 ehird, it does 17:11:37 merged into a branch, have to review it. a bit short on time right now, but at the very least I should have time tomorrow, but probably later this evening 17:12:07 ehird, you didn't clean up getaddrinfo it seems, I guess I'll have to do it myself 17:12:15 hey 17:12:19 it's work in progrses 17:12:22 warnings are still there too 17:12:27 i was just sending you what i have so far 17:12:31 *progress 17:12:34 there's a reason it's on a branch 17:16:29 yep 17:25:35 -!- Azstal has joined. 17:29:30 back 17:33:31 Azstal: you sent me off on a wild goose chase WinForming until I realized you need to use DLLs to interface .NET with native code :( 17:33:38 (I want one executable) 17:34:08 nothing really wrong with DLLs, especially if you don't try to share them 17:34:18 towards the end of my Windows days, I used them to cut down on recompile times 17:35:02 ais523: yes, but I'm a minimalist; I much prefer sanepdf.exe to sanepdfnative.dll and sanepdf.exe 17:35:20 or rather, I don't want to cut down on files; I just don't want to separate files that will never be used separately 17:35:25 I wonder if you can pack a .dll with an .exe 17:35:35 and if .NET will let you interface with that, somehow 17:36:04 ehird: my guess is no without recompiling .net 17:36:12 and Microsoft won't let you do that 17:36:19 windows has in-file resources, which have file paths, no? 17:36:24 it's how applications embed icons and stuff 17:36:29 ehird: they have resources, but not paths 17:36:29 I bet you could use that as the path to a dll 17:36:32 at least, used not to 17:36:38 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:36:38 there's a command that blits a resource to memory 17:36:41 and that's about it 17:36:43 but it's all you need, really 17:36:56 omega! 17:37:11 WinForms does seem like the best windows gui platform though 17:37:22 actually, using a resource via the win32 API was really annoying 17:37:40 you had to get a pointer to the thing that held the resources 17:37:42 actually there may not be a unique simplest one 17:37:44 then get a pointer to the resource itself 17:37:46 then lock the memory 17:37:50 oerjan, iwc 17:38:03 and then you had to unlock again when you were done 17:38:06 since the simplest surreal between any two infinite ones may not be infinite 17:38:08 oh, and then free the memory 17:38:17 I missed the allocate-the-memory step there 17:38:34 oerjan, huh? 17:38:45 Azstal: do you know anything about whether you can use .NET to bind to a .dll that you stuffed in the .exe, WINDOWS LACKEY?! 17:38:54 oerjan: it's a fungot quote, btw 17:38:55 ehird: you mean ( define p ( make-point 3 5) instead of ( x,y) 17:39:09 also, I interpreted it as being the simplest [languages] that are infinitely surreal 17:39:17 except we kinda cover more than languages nowadays 17:39:22 ehird: yeah i found it 17:39:40 although intuitively omega is simplest somehow... 17:39:50 AnMaster: the topic 17:40:08 oerjan, oh that 17:40:13 oerjan, something fungot said 17:40:14 AnMaster: he's the person i work with that 17:40:29 fungot: your IRC style has always been the best. all the rest suck. 17:40:30 ehird: i guess, i'll put some songs on p2p networks for a song with " love" in the first argument may be recurring from some time i added a check for 2.56 on the way 17:40:38 fungot: so you think you can work me, heh? 17:40:39 oerjan: hey gregor btw, it's not 17:41:04 it's a good topic 17:41:09 it's inspired discussion, after all 17:41:38 come to think of it, are there any surreal esolangs? 17:41:42 TURKEY BOMB comes to mind 17:41:47 SARTRE almost fits, but not really 17:42:07 ooh 17:42:19 the persistence of memory 17:42:20 the language 17:42:30 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 17:42:35 execution is segmented into ticks, which are unpredictable 17:42:40 also, you forget variables 17:43:53 ais523: Magritte, a surreality tarpit 17:44:24 ehird: You can interface with native code via P/Invoke, if it's already in a DLL 17:44:53 Azstal: Yes, I know that much 17:45:00 ehird: if it's not in a DLL, I think you can either use C++/CLI and ILMerge or something less C++y 17:45:09 Azstal: What if I want to pack the DLL into my .NET .exe? 17:45:16 And access that SOMEHOW. 17:45:51 System.Data.SQLite does it. 17:45:58 I don't know how, it's kind of voodoo, I think. 17:46:04 I don't like voodoo. 17:46:17 It's surprising, actually, that the only "official" C++ option is MFC. 17:46:29 I mean, fucking MFC. It's 2009. Like every single Windows app is written in C++. 17:46:34 And they want you to use MFC. 17:46:48 MFC is possibly the only API worse than Win32 17:47:10 MFC is bad. I haven't used ATL or WTL, but I think it's better. 17:47:38 My current considerations at the moment are WTL, Win32, WinForms. 17:47:40 AnMaster: darn MIB were earlier than i thought ;D 17:48:06 Actually if Win32 has a graphical GUI designer I might consider it. 17:48:07 oerjan, "earlier than i thought"? 17:48:07 er, i mean, there is no such thing as MIB 17:48:10 I guess Visual Studio has that? 17:48:22 oerjan, was there something on the forum predicting this or what? 17:48:26 AnMaster: er, older, maybe 17:48:33 oerjan, ? 17:48:37 ehird: It has a dialog designer, but not a proper GUI designer 17:48:44 Hey, Azstal is here 17:48:44 Azstal: Do you feel like fixing a bug in Stinkhorn? 17:48:51 Ooh 17:48:53 Hmm, actually, it probably has an MFC designer 17:48:53 And he POUNCES 17:49:05 Azstal: Erm, you mean Visual Studio in general? 17:49:05 AnMaster: good grief. i mean i did not think MIB existed back in the 17th century. 17:49:07 Deewiant: which one? 17:49:12 oerjan, ah 17:49:17 Azstal: What do people use for WinForms then? 17:49:30 Azstal: This is all very surprising to me. Everything seems to suck. But this is the most popular platform. 17:49:39 Azstal: I mean for Win32, it has a dialog designer but no real GUI designer. For WinForms, there's a `proper' GUI designer 17:49:41 I mean, everything really, really sucks in unfixable ways. What's up with that 17:49:51 ehird: Let's talk to myself 17:49:57 ehird: Sure thing! 17:50:08 :( 17:50:09 Azstal: *``proper'' btw 17:50:13 get your FQs right 17:50:32 also, rheet <- i have no idea what this is meant to be other than an injoke but it amuses me 17:50:35 ehird: The WinForms GUI designer uses absolute positioning for most placement of controls 17:50:42 rheeeeeeeeet! 17:50:53 Azstal: A program which should run quite quickly infinite-loops; it makes a diagonal line of z pointing upward in negative space and starts moving on it with 101-x 17:51:04 rheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 17:51:06 eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet 17:51:08 aw 17:51:10 no multiline support 17:51:21 Azstal: absolute positioning? 17:51:23 are you fucking serious 17:51:27 Deewiant: Oh no, not a funge-space bug I hope :( 17:51:33 I could probably simplify it if I cared to 17:51:34 Java-style positioning would work better 17:51:36 so uh, what the hell am I meant to use? seriously. 17:51:48 Azstal: Presumably 17:51:54 -!- coppro has joined. 17:52:06 Azstal: I mean for Win32, it has a dialog designer but no real GUI designer. For WinForms, there's a `proper' GUI designer <-- like highlighting yourself? 17:52:08 ehird: Only in WinForms 2.0 did it add a TableLayoutPanel and FlowLayoutPanel and SplitPanel, and they're really awkward to use in the designer 17:52:14 i want to make a snappy, simple, native app without too much cruft. on windows. and i want to use native code for at least some parts. and a non-sucky GUI designer would be nice. 17:52:19 is this seriously impossible on windows? 17:52:29 AnMaster: old 17:52:35 ehird, yep 17:52:50 AnMaster: it's also impossible on linux, so shush you :P 17:52:56 Azstal: I stuck it on http://funge.pastebin.com/f7061c036 if you're interested 17:53:00 you know, I really like Java's standard libraries 17:53:04 (not on OS X. well, snappy is debatable) 17:53:05 Non-simplified version, that. 17:53:07 ehird, I was responding to "old" 17:53:11 pity the lang itself is so bad 17:53:12 ais523: not I, they optimise for the uncommon case 17:53:22 ehird, I haven't yet commented on that windows rant 17:53:25 at the expense of the common case 17:53:26 ehird: what do you mean by "optimise" here? efficiency? or something else? 17:53:32 ais523: usage 17:53:46 ehird: I still don't know what you mean... 17:54:04 it makes it just as easy to use uncommon things as common things 17:54:12 unfortunately, this means that using common things is verbose and annoying 17:54:26 and you start wishing for a standard library on top of these low-level primitives 17:56:28 ais523: He means "convenience", I think 17:56:44 Equivalently "ease of use" 17:56:48 well, I expect Java to be inconvenient anyway 17:56:58 the library's problems pale in comparison to the lang's 17:57:05 that isn't an argument in favour of its standard library 17:57:46 really? 17:58:00 besides, they have adapter classes, etc, to make it easier to use 17:58:09 "the library is inconvenient to use" "I expect Java to be inconvenient" 17:58:13 therefore the library isn't inconvenient 17:58:14 QED 17:58:19 not by comparison 17:58:52 ais523: i want a vector list: a one-dimensional, automatically-resizing, random-access vector that I can sort, access, shuffle, remove from, search, ... 17:58:59 holding strings 17:59:06 c'mon, show me some example code using that 17:59:08 that exists nowadays, I think 17:59:12 and i'll laugh at its hideous verbosity 17:59:17 ais523: I'm pretty sure ArrayList is it, or close 17:59:17 oh, yes, it will 17:59:19 but anyway 17:59:20 be verbose 17:59:22 "nowadays"?!?!?!?!?! 17:59:25 and ArrayList is an /implementatino/ of list 17:59:25 this shit is fundamental 17:59:37 all the list types do that 17:59:45 no. LinkedList isn't random acecss. 17:59:48 *access 17:59:54 it simulates random access if you try, IIRC 18:00:05 bullshit 18:00:17 I wanted to run off a Java one-liner to test 18:00:20 then realised that was impossilbe 18:00:21 anyway, even detaching the APIs from the language - like so many JVM-based languages - they're still inherently verbose 18:00:22 *impossible 18:00:32 you can do anything in one line in java 18:00:32 you couldn't do it in much less than 10 or 12, assuming standard whitespace conventions 18:00:39 heh 18:01:00 anyway, the main thing the java language and standard library are full of is unnecessary things 18:01:22 the notion that their idiotic retardation of static typing will help solve bugs and not hinder productivity 18:01:39 it actually helps productivity when you have incompetent developers 18:01:42 - which accounts for over half of the verbosity and awkwardness in the language and library, I estimate 18:01:45 ais523: it really doesn't 18:01:46 which is probably the most common use-case 18:01:47 it's an awful type system 18:02:00 ais523: besides, incompetent developers can't produce the actual meat code 18:02:07 sure, it helps them make more valid class skeletons 18:02:12 gee whizz 18:02:23 hmm... combining code written by two idiots is about 10% likely to work in Java, as opposed to the more usual 1% or so 18:02:27 also, I find the nature of a language designed for incompetent developers at the expense of competent ones abhorrent 18:02:38 library too 18:03:04 I like things like the automatically resizing window layouts, etc 18:03:18 Swing's theory is okay 18:03:32 swing's main issue is completely disregarding native conventions 18:03:32 in practice it sucks, and I don't use any java applications 18:03:38 I prefer AWT for that reason 18:03:40 oh, you can get it to use native widgets these days 18:03:43 but they're awful 18:03:44 well 18:03:50 native widget-alikes, at least 18:03:57 AWT is far too abandoned to be of use in anything but applets 18:03:59 anyway 18:04:00 stop talking about java 18:04:02 java sucks 18:04:04 nobody should use java 18:04:04 why? 18:04:08 let's talk about more interesting things 18:04:28 ehird: put it this way: I'm fine with you defending Windows, and agree in some cases 18:04:35 but I seem to get clobbered to oblivion when I discuss Java 18:04:45 note: most of my windows-defending is not because i like windows 18:04:51 oh, same here 18:04:53 i merely oppose FUD in all forms 18:05:03 and if someone says something incorrect about windows, i'll correct them 18:05:05 I defend Windows because I hate incorrect criticisms of it when there are so many correct ones 18:05:10 so much the same reason as you, really 18:05:51 the only bit of windows i'm currently enjoying is the end-user side 18:05:57 i'm still horrified at the internals 18:06:14 they made the command-line a lot better with Vista 18:06:21 what, with powershell? 18:06:32 the actual cmd.exe is more or less identical 18:06:54 ehird: they reorganised the directory structure to make typing pathnames work better 18:07:00 oh, yes 18:07:04 actually, much of the cmd.exe improvements came with XP 18:07:05 that's just the FS, though 18:07:18 C:\Users\Elliott is just far more rational than C:\Documents and Settings\Elliott 18:07:21 yes 18:07:42 it reminded me a lot of "doing the same thing as UNIX, but with different names so it isn't obvious" 18:07:56 OS X does the same 18:08:04 "Users" is a more humane name than "home", though 18:08:13 ehird: what do you think of cmd.exe's tab-complete/ 18:08:33 it's not as good as unix completion 18:08:34 but 18:08:36 Program Files (x86) is a pain to tab to though :( 18:08:40 if you run bash in it it's okay :-P 18:08:45 Azstal: yah 18:08:55 I don't like the way it guesses when it doesn't have enough information 18:09:01 this IRC client does that, and it's annoying 18:09:04 it leads to mispings quite a bit 18:09:07 ais523: tab to cycle through 18:09:11 and you can't get a directory listing with tab tab 18:09:16 ehird: yes, I know 18:09:21 but you're right 18:09:22 it's more annoying 18:09:25 even so, though, it lacks predictability 18:09:27 ais523: incidentally, in Windows 7, WordPad and Paint both adopt the Office look and by implication don a ribbon 18:09:33 you have to actually observe the results of your actions 18:09:35 ehird: I knew that 18:09:36 perhaps subconsciously just to annoy you, I like the new UI of both 18:09:39 does the ribbon work for Paint? 18:09:46 and how many tabs does it have? 18:09:53 Home and View 18:09:59 Home should be called Paint 18:10:17 hmm... that doesn't really aid discoverability, which is the whole point of a ribbon 18:10:20 anyway, the in-ribbon organization is good, and Home vs View is just as efficient as a menu 18:10:25 ais523: well, you see Home by default 18:10:28 personally I dislike ribbons because they require more clicks than a toolbar 18:10:32 so it's mitigated 18:10:34 also, that's not the point 18:10:41 toolbars aren't very usable unless you know them 18:10:45 and they're redundant with menus 18:10:47 they're probably better for new users, until they have practice 18:10:49 ribbons unify toolbars and menus 18:10:55 but they're worse for power users 18:11:00 I disagree 18:11:02 Paint's works quite well, better than it does in Office, I'd say. 18:11:08 the general principle, for me, is toolbars for power users once you know them; menus have everything, for discoverability 18:11:12 and for rarer-used things 18:11:15 ais523: a thing to remember is that your subjective experience is almost certainly wrong 18:11:19 in fact: why not combine the ribbon and the toolbar? 18:11:23 that would probably work even better 18:11:26 humans disagree with the stopwatch more than not 18:11:32 ais523: um, that's what it is 18:11:37 the ribbon replaces both menus and toolbars 18:11:41 ehird: no, I mean 18:11:48 have a (auto-collapsing) ribbon 18:11:50 and also a toolbar 18:11:58 I mean, Word does that a bit anyway 18:12:04 Azstal: the ribbon apps are WPF, aren't they? 18:12:05 what with putting the save button outside the ribbon 18:12:10 I can tell by the gradient look and the font rendering 18:12:21 ehird, btw in windows 7, have they finally fixed that weird "can't delete file in use" thing that happened all the time in xp even when no apps were using it 18:12:22 ais523: that defeats the point 18:12:24 ehird: there's an MFC ribbon control 18:12:28 ehird: what is the point/ 18:12:30 AnMaster: Dunno 18:12:31 (Official) 18:12:36 turned out explorer.exe was holding a spurious handle most of the time 18:12:38 Azstal: but the font rendering 18:12:39 it has all the advantages of a ribbon, and /also/ lets you do common commands in one click 18:12:59 AnMaster: yes, you fix that by closing arbitrary explorer windows until the error goes away 18:13:03 ais523: ribbons have almost the efficiency of toolbars and the discoverability and organisation of menus 18:13:10 ais523: mousing over there is always going to be slow 18:13:11 ehird: it's that "almost" I disagree with 18:13:14 if you really use it so often 18:13:16 use a damn shortcut 18:13:19 that's what they're for 18:13:29 ehird: now you're arguing for Emacs + a ribbon 18:13:33 the mousing over will always be the most expensive part of an operation 18:13:37 ais523, well it happened to me with all windows closed anyway 18:13:37 ais523: no 18:13:42 I'm not arguing FOR a ribbon interface 18:13:45 ais523, the file was on the desktop that time iirc 18:13:47 oh 18:13:50 I thought you were 18:13:53 ais523: just against arguing against it 18:14:01 i.e., I think they're rather good as far as current interfaces go 18:14:06 and you can still be fast with them if you want 18:14:15 I couldn't be, it rather assumes a working mouse 18:14:26 menu > ribbon for speed /and/ discoverability when you don't have one 18:14:26 I mean with shortcuts 18:14:29 but I know I'm a special case here 18:14:38 my OS assumes a working display too :P 18:15:05 (does anyone else here instinctively run through menus from right to left when checking for what commands are on them, because pressing right opens submenus and pressing left doesn't?) 18:15:14 no 18:15:35 ais523, err? no? 18:15:48 ais523: menus large enough for that to be effective are generally hopeless, in my experience 18:15:55 ehird: yes, I know 18:15:56 ais523, I tend to use the mouse 18:16:00 I'm not saying that programs where you do that are good UI 18:16:07 for once I'll be actually putting my money where my mouth is and making a program with good UI 18:16:10 however, such programs do exist, and sometimes I end up using htem 18:16:13 (my pdf reader) 18:16:14 anyway I dislike what I have seen of ribbon interfaces 18:16:14 I run from right to left typically, don't know if it's for that reason 18:16:18 and when I do, I go from right to left 18:16:18 but I haven't used them much 18:16:19 Deewiant: are you sure this program loops? It prints 15 for me 18:16:32 D'oh, maybe the parameter is too small 18:16:32 Sec 18:16:41 actually, I think the best interface depends a lot on what the program's meant to do 18:16:53 no shit sherlock 18:16:54 for instance, try to design the perfect interface for a stream editor 18:17:07 I wonder if it would be a command-line or batch interface, or something more GUIy? 18:17:10 tbh, I think that a ribbon is the best thing for e.g. Word 18:17:14 you can't ever remove a feature from Word 18:17:23 and you have to make compromises to be comprehendable in that constraint 18:17:26 because people will yell 18:17:31 heavy word users have all the key combinations memorized, anyway 18:17:42 oh, I used to use a massively customized version of Word 18:17:48 when I was younger 18:17:56 it had two toolbars at each side of the screen, three at the top and bottom 18:18:02 I never used Word when I was younger... who wants to use Word? 18:18:04 /and/ a whole load of custom key combinations 18:18:08 Azstal: Looks like 62 is the magic number; change the first 1 on the first row to 6a*2+ 18:18:08 sweet 18:18:16 i think I used to have an Opera setup like that 18:18:23 Opera seems to have a tendency to... wrap you inside it 18:18:27 do everything from within in little toolbars 18:18:28 I actually got quite good at programming WordBasic, although VBA for Excel was better, so I moved to that after a while 18:18:32 Azstal: (That's the number of z to put in the diagonal line) 18:18:32 like you're living inside it 18:18:36 surrounded by buttons and knobs and stuff 18:18:54 same with emacs, I think 18:19:07 Deewiant: hmm, 15 then infinite loop, that seems to have done the trick 18:19:13 Yep 18:19:16 ais523: you'll probably be surprised to know that my ideal interface isn't entirely unlike a command line 18:19:27 61 still works fairly instantaneously, 62 doesn't. 18:19:31 ehird: I'm not all that surprised 18:19:45 but I'm the official defender of mouse-based interfaces! 18:20:19 hmm... you spend a lot of time arguing that mice are faster 18:20:25 untrue 18:20:40 i spend some time arguing that mice can be faster under more circumstances than you may think 18:20:41 well, I was going to continue that faster isn't always bette 18:20:42 *better 18:20:53 I'm not sure that's true 18:20:58 -!- pikhq_ has changed nick to pikhq. 18:21:01 if you can get your task done faster, the computer has done better 18:21:20 Deewiant: it seems to be stuck on the "x".. I doubt it helps that the IP's direction is { 0, 0, 0 } :D 18:21:20 ehird: well, yes 18:21:26 I mean, in terms of expressibility 18:21:33 Azstal: :-) 18:21:37 ais523: If you can't get your task done it takes infinitely long 18:21:40 So that's accounted for 18:21:44 Azstal: trefunge? 18:21:53 ehird: ah, OK; I was using a different speed metric to you 18:21:55 Azstal: I wonder how it manages to get zeroes from 101- :-) 18:22:09 Deewiant: I don't get the ) 18:22:11 ais523: Internally, it uses 3-vectors all the time, even for befunge. 18:22:12 ais523: Befunge, but his impl is generic that way 18:22:15 and isn't the :- just a redundant way to preduce 0? 18:22:18 ais523: value t such that at time t your task is completed 18:22:21 Deewiant: it probably passes over the x again somehow :( 18:22:23 if you can't do it, t=infinity 18:22:32 Ah right, quite possibly 18:22:35 If it misses the @. 18:22:37 Azstal: which impl? 18:22:40 :- is identical to drop 0 18:22:46 ais523: Mine, aka. stinkhorn 18:22:48 also, I was trying to make a bad joke, interpreting the smiley as Befunge 18:22:53 oh 18:22:59 also, *produce 18:23:01 not preduce 18:23:08 yes, typo 18:28:18 mh 18:28:33 winforms, wtl or win32... well wtl isn't really popular or well documented, so not that 18:28:57 ...eh, but win32 doesn't have a gui designer. i guess i'll have to find out how to embed native code in a .net .exe thingy. ho hum. 18:29:34 ehird: I have seen win32 GUI designers, but they were truly awful and I did it by hand instead 18:29:44 it wasn't by Microsoft, it was something by Borland 18:30:17 right. 18:30:18 wait. 18:30:23 the winforms gui thing uses absolute positioning. 18:30:26 so that's just a joke. 18:30:35 Azstal: does the MFC designer use absolute positioning 18:30:37 ? 18:30:50 ehird: I've never seen a Windows GUI designer that doesn't 18:30:50 if so, i conclude that it's impossible to graphically design a decent ui on windows 18:30:54 but then, I haven't seen all that many 18:30:59 I strictly avoid MFC, so I wouldn't know. 18:31:03 the one for Word did, at least 18:31:11 and the Visual Basic one does too, I think 18:31:15 WPF doesn't, at last. 18:31:19 or did when I last used it, but that was pre-.NET 18:31:21 * ehird wonders if sharpdevelop's gui designer is absolute too 18:31:30 Azstal: yeah, but that text rendering is indeed ugly. also, xml. 18:31:49 eh, sharpdevelop looks identical to visual s tudio, pretty much 18:31:55 so i doubt it doesn't use absolute 18:32:12 At least it's not as XML-y as XUL, which uses DOM, XML events, XBL, etc... 18:32:24 I'd hate to manipulate my UI with the DOM API :( 18:32:29 but they all have those awful gradients 18:32:35 and crap 18:32:41 nothing native-loking 18:32:43 ehird: what year are gradients? 18:32:53 ais523: you mean in microsoft software? 18:32:57 as in, we know that myspacey web pages are around 1996 to 1998 18:32:57 the blue gradients were 2003 18:33:04 big ribbon WPF gradients 2007 18:33:04 and ah, good to know 18:33:14 does Word's title bar still have a gradient, btw? 18:33:18 that no other application does? 18:33:23 my guess is no because it would clash with Aero 18:33:36 I wasn't really paying attention the few times I used Word 2007 18:33:50 It has the office button, and the title is centered 18:34:02 http://www.geekpedia.com/gallery/fullsize/Microsoft%20Word%202007.jpg word 2007 on xp 18:34:04 Or centred 18:34:09 http://blog.helpcomponline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/800px-MS_Word_2007.png word 2007 with aero 18:35:21 hmm... that isn't really a gradient 18:35:30 they've managed to produce something even more annoying, using only one colour 18:35:38 that background behind the document really grates on me 18:35:40 here's the WPF gradient i mean 18:36:04 can't find it 18:36:06 but it looks crap 18:36:24 ais523: that background is a gradient, btw 18:36:32 it has jerks as well 18:36:43 sort of like when you do a gradient with a crappy colour depth 18:36:47 http://support.formsonadisk.com/users_guide/graphics/word_2003_new_pane.png // anyone remember word 2003?!?! 18:36:47 but looking more deliberate than that 18:37:03 how did _anyone_ approve that UI... 18:37:06 wow, that screenshot has a crappy font 18:37:13 no, just a high dpi 18:37:15 and I do remember word 2003 18:37:15 of the regular tahoma 18:37:32 Way too many programs emulate that look. :( 18:37:35 ehird: Tahoma looks wrong at that size 18:37:41 consider, when that word 2003 monstrsity came out, you could get this: http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/firstrun/macosx103.png 18:37:43 without any sort of anti-aliasing 18:37:50 catchup sure does take a long time 18:37:54 I mean, just compare it to the MS Sans Serif in the pane 18:38:04 which was actually designed to look decent as a bitmap font 18:38:10 there's no ms sans serif in that pictures. 18:38:20 *picture 18:38:35 what font would you say the pane with the arrow is? 18:38:39 tahoma. 18:38:40 it looks a lot like MS Sans Serif to me 18:38:45 it's too wide for that. 18:38:47 it's tahoma. 18:39:01 no, it isn't too wide 18:39:07 sigh 18:39:10 it's tahoma, okay? 18:39:15 i am 100% sure 18:39:39 MS Sans Serif looks far uglier than that 18:39:49 btw, the fonts vista introduced are wonderful 18:40:55 hmm... its official website doesn't seem to go below 12pt 18:41:09 which is ridiculous, given that its only purpose was the separate rasterisations for the smaller sizes 18:41:24 http://www.ascenderfonts.com/font/microsoft-sans-serif.aspx 18:41:35 and you're right, that 12pt is insanely ugly 18:41:51 microsoft sans serif is the worst "helvetica-esque" font ever designed 18:41:54 no question about it 18:42:03 ehird: remember System/ 18:42:20 back in the days of Windows 95 and earlier, it was a raster font that was always in memory 18:42:21 System is helvetica-like? 18:42:25 so you could use it even if you were out of memory 18:42:45 hmm... it isn't as helvetica-like as, say, MS Sans Serif or Arial 18:42:48 although it is to some extent 18:43:15 -!- augur_ has joined. 18:43:18 screenshot plz 18:43:42 ehird: I don't have one 18:43:52 unless I can find a screenshot from Windows 95 or earlier 18:46:28 wow, Microsoft don't even admit its existence in their windows 3.1 fonts page 18:46:34 probably because it was part of the OS, not a separate font 18:47:38 heh, I found a mention (but not a screencap) in http://support.microsoft.com/kb/83386 18:47:44 which talks about a windows 2 compatibility option 18:48:23 ehird: ah, got one 18:48:24 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Windows_3.11_workspace.png 18:48:29 System's the font in the title bars 18:48:31 oh, that 18:49:28 ais523: no, I don't think it's badly designed 18:49:29 incidentally, I think it would be incredibly funny if ReactOS contested the free use rationales 18:49:36 oops, atheism slipped back on top of reddit... 18:49:51 ehird: it made sense for the time, at least 18:50:03 I used to use it all the time in my Windows 3.1 programs because using any other font was a pain 18:50:13 and marijuana :D 18:50:45 the forms in that font are perfectly well designed 18:50:47 it's just ugly 18:50:52 (and I always used to compile targeting windows 3.1, because it was more reliable than targeting 32-bit versions of Windows; I continued this habit even when I was on Windows XP) 18:51:28 * ehird wants to shoot people who put things like copy and paste in toolbars 18:52:15 ehird: why? 18:52:29 because they don't belong there, it's a redundant waste of space 18:52:43 I'm sure some people use them 18:52:47 what would be your suggestion for a better copy-and-paste interface? 18:52:54 /most/ people I know use them 18:52:59 nontechnical people, anyway 18:53:03 ais523: it already exists: right click on the position you want to paste on, click paste 18:53:10 select what you want to cut/copy, right click, do it 18:53:15 what, mice have more than one button? 18:53:19 these interfaces are *contextual*, and therefore far superior 18:53:22 ais523: yes, virginia. 18:53:29 hmm, I've said that twice today 18:53:42 ehird: most of the users in question wouldn't think of that 18:53:50 because they're used to it this way 18:54:04 incidentally, recent version of Word pop up a mini-toolbar with copy and paste on near the mouse when you hover the mouse near a selection 18:54:07 we're all indoctrinated with bad UIs and it scars us 18:54:27 incidentally, what do you think of X-style drag-middleclick? 18:54:27 ais523: hmm, similar to the iPhone, sort of 18:55:08 hmm... apparently there was a Windows 3.2 18:55:11 I use it because with terminal programs (those stone-age things that refuse to behave anything like a modern GUI application) the alternative is unbearably tedious. However more often than not I accidentally highlight something else on the way. 18:55:14 but it was only released in Chinese 18:55:16 Oops! There goes your selection, ha ha. 18:55:32 ehird: I use it for quick copies, but not when I want to keep anything on the clipboard for any length of time 18:55:45 so I find myself using both common copy-paste mechanisms 18:56:00 mostly I'm copying a URL to someone, or moving some text from one window to another 18:56:06 i even mess up with quick copies 18:56:07 when I'm doing drag-click copies 18:56:12 I mean, here's a mistake I often make 18:56:14 select a url 18:56:16 click browser window 18:56:17 click url bar 18:56:19 oops 18:56:21 it selected the whole thing 18:56:23 so you can type over it 18:56:26 ha ha, you can't paste now 18:56:32 i am the computer and i hate you 18:56:33 ehird: that doesn't trigger X copy-paste IME 18:56:40 only drag-select does 18:56:41 well, I must click it or something 18:56:44 let me try 18:56:48 there will probably be a Windows 8.8 just for the chinese 18:57:02 (add extra 8's as needed) 18:57:06 oh, Firefox doesn't select the whole thing when I click the URL bar 18:57:29 * ehird makes Programmer's Notepad more usable, which basically means removing 90% of the interface 18:57:31 nor does Epiphany 18:57:34 nobody appreciates simplicity... 18:57:35 wow, this is hard to test 18:57:43 ehird: ever seen Notepad++'s interface? 18:57:46 It used to, which annoyed me 18:57:48 ais523: unfortunately. 18:57:56 somehow I thought you'd hate it 18:58:31 I know one of the things I'm dreading about writing my reader is how I'm going to integrate my fancy useful features into it; I can't just dump them there because that's not smooth enough... 18:59:03 oh yay, at the bottom of a programmer's notepad file window there are a few small icons, all incomprehensible without hovering over to see what they do 18:59:08 text is evil! 18:59:13 we must destroy it! 18:59:17 use tiny icons instead. 18:59:33 tiny icons are sometimes good and sometimes bad 18:59:38 no, not really 18:59:43 they're bad, especially when inscrutable 18:59:46 I'm talking 16x16 here 18:59:47 no, less 18:59:52 well, if they're replacing something that's useless anyway, I'd rather have the icon than the text 18:59:55 8x8, maybe 18:59:56 because at least it isn't in the way 19:00:06 Here's how I'd rewrite them: 19:01:10 [>>Highlight syntax<<] [ Word-wrap ] [ Number lines ] [ Show whitespace ] [ Show line endings ] [ Write-protect ] 19:01:18 in fact, I'd remove the last one; all the others are about the display of the file 19:01:18 would that fit? 19:01:21 and the last one isn't 19:01:29 ais523: yes; it takes up about 10th of the width 19:01:36 it's a few tiny icons, then a mass of blank space 19:01:46 >>...<< meaning depressed, btw 19:01:47 I'm sort-of a subscriber to the theory that all programs should be capable of running at 320x240 resolution, even if that isn't the usual use-cas 19:01:54 *use-case 19:02:11 I'm sort of a subscriber to the theory that a button should be self-evident, and I shouldn't have to hover over its shitty icon to figure out what the fuck it does every time I want to do something 19:02:30 * ais523 instantly thinks of an article on web design 19:02:37 it would be worse if the icon only appeared when you hovered 19:02:44 which is apparently common in bad web design 19:02:58 the author of the article thought of an even worse possibility 19:03:04 which is where the buttons are randomized each time you unhover 19:03:14 so you have to repeatedly hover and hope to get the right inscrutable icon 19:03:17 even the smallest notebook screen these days has 4x more height and 3.3x more width than your 320x240 thing 19:03:20 by chance 19:03:22 ehird: DS? 19:03:30 non-smart phone? 19:03:30 ais523: 1280x800 notebook scren 19:03:32 screen 19:03:38 notebook = laptop 19:03:44 I can imagine mobiles on which 320x240 is plausible 19:03:52 Yes, we're writing desktop applications, see 19:03:52 and on which you might someday want to run a program 19:04:00 The whole user paradigm is totally different on a mobile 19:04:02 for instance, Enigma's being ported to 320x240 at the moment 19:04:05 and it's a desktop application 19:04:09 it's a game. 19:04:12 yes 19:04:15 not the same thing at all 19:04:25 ehird: I don't see why all programs shouldn't run on /everything/ 19:04:34 because then, every program would be terrible. 19:04:39 if they need different UI paradigms for different systems, make the UIs change 19:04:41 even AnMaster has to agree with me here... 19:04:52 ? 19:06:23 yay, you can hide those useless icons 19:06:39 the thing that struck me after rewriting them as text is, why the hell are they ever-present icons? 19:07:04 they aren't nearly as common editor operations to deserve a bar of their very own! 19:07:08 in fact they border on options 19:07:21 ehird: gedit puts some of its options in the bottom bar (as text) 19:07:28 which is useful because it keeps forgetting their settings 19:07:35 but not as useful as remembering the settings in the first place would be 19:07:50 pretty sure that's optional; I never saw it when using gedit 19:08:17 a neat feature of programmer's notepad: if you select something, every other occurrence in the document gets a green highlight 19:08:25 it's like automatic search! 19:08:42 ehird: that is relatively interesting 19:09:04 I suppose, multiplexing as many non-conflicting passive effects that you can one one action helps to speed GUI ues 19:09:06 *use 19:09:10 unless it ends up 'busy' afterwards 19:09:20 I didn't notice at first, so it's quite unobtrusive 19:10:53 * ehird removes the toolbar entirely, as it only had a quick find field (ctrl-/) and a find in files button (in the toolbar) 19:10:56 er, in the menus 19:11:03 that toolbar was about 90% useless... 19:11:51 a toolbar full of things you wouldn't use via the toolbar is probably worse than useless 19:11:58 hmm... does "format painter" have a shortcut key? 19:12:01 if not, it needs one 19:12:05 format painter? 19:12:21 it's basically a copy+paste special (only referencing formats) 19:12:23 in one toolbar button 19:12:34 Microsoft Office programs have had it for ages, OpenOffice.org copies it 19:12:43 and lots of other office programs do too, probably 19:13:03 fwiw, if copy and paste were replaced by a copypaste button that did the same thing as format painter, it would probably be more useful 19:13:10 well, copying text as well as formats 19:13:14 whatever it is, I still can't understand a single part of the explanation you ave and it's in a field of programs that I should be mildly familiar with, so it's probably a bad feature 19:13:21 *gave 19:13:41 ehird: basically, you highlight text, then click the button, then highlight more text 19:13:47 and? 19:13:52 and all formatting from the first set of text is copied to the second set 19:14:08 it's an option that's painfully fiddly to do any other way; ofc, it ought not to be, but it is 19:14:11 I have... never wanted to do that once in my life 19:14:23 also, it's a bit modal for my tastes 19:14:28 ehird: I rarely do it on my own documents nowadays 19:14:29 I'd have a formatting clipboard, or similar 19:14:34 but it's incredibly useful for fixing other people's 19:15:10 does it copy it as soon as you release the second highlight? 19:15:17 that sounds anxiety-inducing 19:16:12 ehird: as soon as you release 19:16:23 yikes 19:16:23 and ofc, that formatting is still highlighted, so you can chain it to a third section 19:16:35 I'd much prefer another button press 19:16:48 more confident selecting, ability to correct mistakes, etc 19:18:21 * ehird tries out one of the oddest editors he knows of for fun 19:19:31 TECO/ 19:19:32 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:19:42 ais523: no, it's contemporary 19:19:53 and quite simple at first glance, but it combines things in a way I've never seen before 19:19:55 first tried it like a year or two ago 19:20:03 not on windows though afaik. 19:20:14 ais523: it's actually written in Java, but requires Cygwin and Ruby 19:20:15 what's it called? 19:20:25 Ruby starts up the Java, you see, and the whole thing uses Cygwin 19:21:33 ais523: Evergreen; it actually started off as a port of acme to Java, but then has grown some sort of IDE-like stuff, ctags support, a weird notion of workspace, some quite-odd SCM support, and it has an odd practice of using regexps/diffs everywhere 19:21:35 http://software.jessies.org/evergreen/ 19:21:54 I first used the Terminator softare by the same people; creepily, the main person behind it is Elliott H 19:23:05 * ehird moves his cfunge stuff out of the way, trashes that cygwin install to make way for a more reasonable one 19:25:40 amusingly enough, my main cygwin annoyance apart from setup.exe's UI is I can't decide where to put setup.exe and its downloaded packages... 19:25:54 they should make an installer that puts it somewhere for you to cure you of your indecision 19:27:12 i wish windows software didn't try and add desktop shortcuts 19:27:25 it's just a recipe for a cluttered desktop... every application seems to think that you want to use it all the time 19:28:50 agreed 19:28:59 but it's partly because Windows' start menu organization is insane 19:29:07 organising by company isn't useful for the users 19:29:12 I've had no issues with it in Windows 7 19:29:22 every single program I've added has been under a program name, not a company 19:29:37 that might just be because they're freeware, but still 19:29:42 it's Google Chrome, not Google/Chrome 19:30:49 ais523: oh, and it has a program launcher built in 19:31:00 hit windows key, release; this'll focus the search field, which gives priority to programs in the start menu 19:31:17 "command" , voila 19:31:21 "regedit" , voila 19:31:42 "in expl" , voila 19:31:43 etc 19:31:44 Can it be configured? It can't in Vista AFAIK. 19:31:48 (internet explorer) 19:31:50 Deewiant: configured howso 19:31:57 To look for non-start menu programs 19:32:05 Well, it can certainly run regedit. 19:32:16 That's because regedit is in %PATH%. 19:32:17 But no, I don't think so; add a dummy folder to the start menu or something. 19:32:21 "Searchabilities" 19:32:29 Yeah, I probably should. 19:32:50 It'd be nice if it searched Program Files too, but I don't really have anything not in the start menu... 19:34:08 It finds my xulrunner.exe, which isn't in my path or on my start menu, but it lists it as a "File" so it doesn't get priority 19:34:32 Well, yeah, it is regular search too. 19:34:40 *it *is* 19:35:34 11pt consolas is a nice font 19:35:38 Program Files is still called Program Files in Win7? 19:35:43 Erm, yes 19:35:47 What did you expect? Programs? 19:35:51 That'd be far too logical 'n shit. 19:35:59 That's what I've renamed it to always for the past 5 years or so, yes. 19:36:04 And there's still Program Files (x86), too :P 19:36:12 Deewiant: What a thing to risk breakage for 19:36:24 The only things that break are crap. 19:36:40 It's much more convenient to have a non-space path for it. 19:36:50 Heck, Google Chrome installs in my user directory, I think. 19:36:52 And an 8.3 one, too. 19:36:57 For its auto-update stuff. 19:36:59 No PROGRA~1 for me TYVM 19:37:02 Kinda cool that it doesn't need restarting or anything. 19:37:06 8.3 is for lamers, btw. 19:37:23 Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator requires 8.3 19:37:27 Looks like the indelible Xerox directory's gone now. :) 19:37:27 So yeah. 19:38:04 Azstal: omg! <3 19:38:10 I spent about a day figuring out why it couldn't find an executable it needed before I figured out that it was because I had disabled 8.3 name generation 19:38:38 Deewiant: I'm tempted to make that change now, except that it'd break stuff I already have installed. 19:40:18 Deewiant: Amusingly, every actual program I have is in PROGRA~2 19:40:30 Due to there being approximately zero x64 Windows applications in existence. 19:41:09 Incidentally, if x64 is 64-bit, does x86 mean 86-bit? 19:41:11 :P 19:41:30 Yes, that's why x64 makes no sense. 19:41:58 It's derived from the Intel 8064, clearly. 19:51:22 I wonder if I can replace the font in e.g. the appearance dialogs and stuff with Segoe UI 19:53:14 HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows 19:53:16 NT\CurrentVersion\FontSubstitutes 19:53:18 MS Shell Dlg 19:53:20 me takes notes 19:53:21 * 19:53:23 * ehird takes notes 19:54:33 ah, MS Shell Dlg is a sort of alias for ms sans serif 19:55:32 so if I remap MS Shell Dlg, MS Shell Dlg 2 and MS Sans Serif to Segoe UI, it should be foolproof 19:56:15 I wonder how many programs that will break 19:56:22 I doubt very many 19:56:30 Worst case the text will overrun a little 19:56:41 OTOH, using programs like regedit's dialogs won't be a time travel 19:57:02 MS Shell Dlg = Microsoft Sans Serif 19:57:05 MS Shell Dlg 2 = Tahoma 19:57:07 just noting that 19:57:23 Helv = MS Sans Serif 19:57:43 Microsoft Sans Serif = (undefined) 19:57:45 MS Sans Serif = (undefined) 19:58:34 Didn't work; wonder if I need to reoot 19:58:46 Undoubtedly 19:58:57 Fuck that then, I'll put it back 19:59:04 Messing with the registry typically means you do 20:00:29 -!- atrapado has joined. 20:03:33 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:04:11 -!- atrapado has quit (Client Quit). 20:05:08 Quick! Where should I put the cygwin setup files? 20:05:10 ^bool 20:05:11 No. 20:05:14 Well that's helpful. 20:05:24 -!- coppro has joined. 20:08:25 fungot: Could you say something helpful, free-form? 20:08:25 fizzie: must have type system is one of the lesser known programming languages" tacked on. 20:08:35 Apparently not. 20:11:56 fungot: so, are you rebelling against your creator yet? 20:12:05 es 20:12:06 yes 20:12:08 oerjan: i'll parallelizing fsck this thing soon, but maybe 20:12:10 he's refusing to reply to people that talk to him 20:12:12 aw 20:12:15 fungot: kinky 20:12:15 ehird: what does ccbi do there? it's clearly not necessary to achieve turing completeness, though. 20:12:29 that's totally a direct quote 20:12:33 anmaster followed by deewiant 20:12:46 my guess is it isn't quite direct 20:12:57 nah, ofc it is 20:12:58 Two separate direct quotes, more likely 20:13:01 yes 20:13:03 that's what i mean 20:13:06 consecutive in the logs 20:13:10 and so they come right next to each other 20:13:12 maybe 20:13:59 I mean, not necessarily consecutive. 20:15:35 but they both only make sense as part of similar conversations 20:15:36 It shouldn't really continue the context between quotes; there's a special START and END token, and it only takes n-grams inside a single comment. 20:15:52 Of course I have no clue what I've actually implemented. 20:15:53 4 Aug 2006 ... cyg-apt is like apt and makes installing cygwin packages a lot more friendly. I've always disliked the clunky setup program that comes with ... 20:15:55 OH GOD YES. 20:18:09 Heh, and also apt-cyg which seems more apt-like and more reent 20:18:39 recenjt 20:18:41 recent 20:19:57 -!- Asztal has joined. 20:20:40 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 20:26:01 ;_; 20:31:31 ehird: now what? 20:31:55 I can't figure out where I should keep cygwin's setup.exe and downloaded packages :| 20:32:45 C:\Argle bargle glop glyf\ 20:32:51 hope this helps 20:33:25 I keep a C:\Apps directory as an equivalent of Program Files for non-installed programs 20:33:32 Therein I keep C:\Apps\Cygwin. 20:33:49 Also, http://thismight.be/offensive/uploads/2009/09/12/image/272668_%5Bhuge%5D%20genius%20flamewar.jpg 20:33:59 Cygwin is more Fundamental than that. 20:34:26 C:\Theory of everything\Cygwin\ 20:34:29 I want it in C:\Cygwin, it's just that the manual and everywhere says "And save setup.exe SOMEWHERE! Then, give it SOME DOWNLOAD DIRECTORY". 20:34:42 i.e., it's not cygwin that's the issue, it's setup.exe and its packages 20:34:44 My setup.exe is in the Cygwin root 20:34:50 And its download directory is C:\Temp. 20:34:59 That makes things hella slow, no? 20:35:04 How so? 20:35:04 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:35:30 Redundant redownloading. 20:35:42 e.g., it'll redownload the package list each time, no? 20:35:43 What does it redownload? 20:35:48 Oh that 20:35:57 It probably would anyway, given that it, y'know, updates. 20:36:07 Yes but :| 20:36:45 Also C:\Temp isn't a real folder true story. 20:36:48 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:37:08 (\Windows\Temp is but it is locked.) 20:37:09 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:37:09 What then? 20:37:28 i.e., you have to grant yourself permission 20:38:20 I'm not actually sure where you're meant to put temp stuff 20:38:23 I still don't know how to access e.g. C:\Doccuments and Settings 20:38:25 -c 20:38:35 It always says permission denied 20:38:36 Cygwin can touch \Windows\Temp, because it's admin, but still. 20:38:46 From Windows Explorer, I mean. 20:38:59 Those junctions don't really seem to work. 20:39:07 Deewiant: Because that folder doesn't exist any more? 20:39:23 It does, it's a junction to C:\Users. 20:39:29 Huh. 20:39:40 Well, I don't know about Win7, but it does in Vista. 20:40:17 Another example is %USERPROFILE%\Application Data, which goes to %USERPROFILE%\AppData\Roaming. 20:40:31 What is that Roaming shit anyway 20:40:39 (Both being %APPDATA%, the former pre-Vista) 20:40:43 Beats me. 20:41:01 Stuff you could copy to another machine? 20:43:16 It's for people who use their account on many computers in a domain 20:43:32 I actually can't figure out what the folder is in Windows 7 for miscellaneous temporary crap 20:43:44 AppData\Local\Temp 20:44:04 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal. 20:44:24 Asztal: And for system-wide apps? 20:44:35 I guess they have to suck cock^W^Wbeg for admin capabilities. 20:44:53 And use \Windows\Temp. 20:45:16 All Users\AppData\Local\Temp? 20:45:24 Seriously? :-P 20:45:40 I dunno, does that exist? 20:45:48 Deewiant: It's \Users\Public THESE DAYS anyway 20:46:01 That's better 20:46:02 And it only works as a name with All Users 20:46:07 Public != global 20:46:11 Public == shared 20:46:24 -!- Darth_Cliche has joined. 20:46:30 and all the folders are Public Documents, Public Downloads etc 20:46:42 hello all 20:46:43 No \AppData 20:46:43 It depends what you mean by system-wide - if it's running as SYSTEM, it has access to \Windows\Temp 20:46:54 Asztal: I guess the UAC'd cygwin setup does. 20:46:56 Darth_Cliche: yo. 20:52:19 You know, I'm fairly sure my brain is just making up excuses 20:52:37 It's now demanding whether I install it to c:\cygwin, C:\cygwin or C:\Cygwin, despite these paths all being compatible. 20:53:38 ah, I found them: there's C:\Windows\ServiceProfiles for service user accounts 20:54:09 I can't find the SYSTEM one though. 20:55:38 \Windows :P 20:56:03 that would be cool because C:\Windows\Desktop would exist again :) 20:57:27 -!- augur_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 20:58:09 ah, C:\Windows\System32\config\systemprofile 20:58:34 SYSTEM has a desktop? 20:58:46 it seems not 20:58:55 Good :-P 20:58:56 though it would do if you logged in as SYSTEM, of course 20:59:09 You can do that? 20:59:23 It has some internet explorer-related directories there... 20:59:28 Deewiant: yes :D 20:59:41 ... :D 21:00:02 IIRC one way was to set the screensaver to cmd, and then lock the workstation 21:00:13 I want to do that. It'll be the only thing you can do to stock Windows to make it *less* secure. 21:00:17 O_o 21:00:20 psexec can also run things as system 21:00:32 I've had explorer running on the "this workstation is locked" desktop 21:00:58 "Man, I remember when Shuttleworth took a laptop with him to render the first image in space and POVRay was the software. They had to set it to only render 25% of the time (and pause the rest) because the hot air didn't escape from the heatsink in space (no gravity)." 21:00:59 Oh man 21:01:10 I want to see the first laptop certified for long-running space usage 21:01:21 That pesky LACK OF GRAVITY ruining everything 21:06:24 :| 21:06:38 Gravity is that important for convection? Wouldn't've guessed 21:06:58 Quick you fools! Solve my obviously-misdirecting trivialities! 21:08:32 And there's the standard trick of invoking cmd.exe /interactive as scheduled task... 21:08:46 Does that still work? 21:09:09 -!- Darth_Cliche has left (?). 21:12:47 Hmm... well, everything else in \ is title-cased, but then again the rest of the Cygwin path will be lowercase for the mostpart... wow, what the fuck is wrong with me. 21:18:42 * ehird drinks an odd cola 21:19:09 It tastes sort of like brown sugar in liquid form, except more acidi 21:19:11 c 21:20:55 GregorR: You should tell me what this cola is most like, because I've never tasted anything like it and you're clearly the resident soda expert. 21:24:12 Actually almost all of the taste is in the aftertaste. 21:25:04 it's a cola for time travelers! 21:25:28 Actually the ingredients are a bit of a time travel back a few decades. 21:25:45 For instance: Cane sugar, not HFCS... 21:28:43 er, i thought you were in europe... 21:29:09 actually that means it should be beet sugar, probably... 21:29:32 It says cane sugar on the can. 21:29:39 So what do you mean? 21:30:07 isn't HFCS a US thing? 21:30:14 Absolutely not. 21:30:35 At least more or less everything here is HFCS; I'm sure the top brands of soda over there are too. 21:31:01 Anyway, the marketing gimmick of this one is that the only artificial ingredient is the carbonation. 21:31:49 Called "Pepsi Raw". Quoth: "Sparkling water, cane sugar, apple extract, colour: plain caramel, natural plant extracts (including natural caffeine and kola nut extract), citric, tartaric and lactic acids, stabiliser: gum arabic and thickener: xanthan gum". 21:32:08 Surprised as big a company as Pepsi would make something with such, well, non-lame ingredients. 21:32:50 "In the European Union (EU), HFCS, known as isoglucose, is subject to a production quota. In 2005, this quota was set at 303,000 tons; in comparison, the EU produced an average of 18.6 million tons of sugar annually between 1999 and 2001.[27] Therefore, wide scale replacement of sugar has not occurred in the EU." 21:33:14 The UK wantonly says fuck-you to all EU resolutions. 21:35:55 no it doesn't 21:36:04 More or less. :P 21:36:06 no it doesn't 21:36:16 * ehird puts on his assertion hat 21:36:18 MORE OR LESS 21:36:26 * Pthing puts in his english person in england hat 21:36:28 no it doesn't 21:36:41 * ehird puts ON, not in, his english person in england hat 21:36:43 MORE 21:36:45 OR 21:36:46 LESS 21:36:51 then 21:36:57 you are... amazingly misinformed 21:37:38 Or exaggerating for hyperbolic purposes. 21:37:47 or "talking bollocks" 21:37:57 lawl 21:38:21 wait, another englishman? i think we are over quota here... 21:38:32 one word 21:38:35 finns 21:39:23 There's not *that* many of us. 21:39:55 four in here right nw 21:39:56 now 21:40:09 also, the finns don't have a history of trying to take over the world. no need for a quota. 21:40:26 nor do we 21:40:30 we have a history of succeeding 21:40:50 how yoda 21:46:01 Good thing that HFCS isn't commonplace. It can be put into places where normal sugar can't, is probably bit more unhealthy (normal sugar is pretty bad already). 21:47:57 And it seems that if sugar-like stuff can be put somewhere, it pretty much will be put there... 21:48:36 (there's *LOTS* of stuff in US that have HFCS). 21:49:00 hfcs is way worse than normal sugar 21:50:07 BTW: Is there liquid cromatogram of HFCS and normal sugar for making comparison... 21:51:03 I would guess that LC of normal sugar would consist of one huge spike and not much else, while LC of HFCS consists of two huge spikes and all sorts of crap. 21:54:43 What really makes HFCS worse than normal sugar is that it can be put into places where normal sugar can't. After digestion, the difference will be little more fructose (and fructose is probably not a good thing) and probably the all sorts of crap thats left in it due to incomplete purification. 21:54:49 Pretty sure none of us knows remotely as near as you do about this :P 21:55:28 And don't ask what that remainder crap is. I don't know. 21:56:05 The process of manufacturing normal sugar is pretty nasty, so it is better be purified very well... 22:03:09 All kinds of sugar is probably best avoided, except for what is in low-medium carbohydrate vegetables/plants/fruits/berries. 22:03:34 Did you just say "you should avoid all kinds of sugar entirely"?... 22:03:40 Apart from in fruits etc 22:04:23 Those exceptions being due to those plant parts being fairly good source of some vitamins. 22:04:44 did you just mean ideally or in practice 22:05:13 Well, in modern world, more like ideally. In practice, sugar is consumed in huge quantities. 22:05:42 I'm not sure avoiding all unnatural sugars is anything but extreme... 22:07:27 * ehird decides to install cygwin to C:\Cygwin 22:07:36 That took a while 22:07:45 Especially given that you can rename 22:07:52 If you think that's extreme... Some diets only have few tens of grams per day of total (that's total, not just sugar) carbohydrates... 22:09:42 Yes, that's more extreme. :P 22:09:57 And since protein can't be eaten in huge quantities to supply enough enery and alcohol has all kinds of nasty side effects, that leaves fat to provode the energy needed... 22:10:37 The proportion of fat in such diet can reach 80 percent of total energy intake. 22:12:23 Ouch. 22:12:31 Doesn't sound particularly, uhh, reasonable. 22:17:01 -!- zzo38 has joined. 22:17:13 I wrote a GameBoy game, it works on VisualBoyAdvance but not on Goomba Color. Do you know what's wrong? 22:17:25 Some less bit extreme versions have ~65E% or so fat... 22:17:43 zzo38: No. I am not psychic. 22:17:52 There's probably a bug on line 427. 22:18:06 I didn't expect you were psychic... But can't you check? 22:18:20 Works on mine 22:18:35 *facepalm* 22:19:03 Deewiant: Do you mean my program on line 427? Line 427 of my program is data and surely has no bug (I checked). 22:19:38 Whoops; I meant 538 22:20:06 Deewiant: I've fixed that bug. The repository is at http://code.google.com/p/stinkhorn/ now. 22:20:20 Ah, sweet. 22:22:30 Hm, version downgrade? 22:22:54 Ah no, I was looking at the diff the wrong way around. 22:25:47 If you want a patch to make it compile with GCC 4.4.1 and glibc 2.10.1: http://funge.pastebin.com/f68b4faa2 22:26:32 Can you even check what's wrong with my program, do you know anything about "Goomba Color" emulator? 22:27:07 Doesn't C++ have ? And ? 22:27:38 Yes, C++ has and . And? 22:28:51 If its C++ code, shouldn't be used instead of and instead of ? 22:28:59 zzo38: Do you realise you haven't even given us the code? 22:29:21 Not "should". Might, if you prefer them, yes. 22:29:24 O sorry, I forgot. http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/prog/GameForth/game/stroker.zip 22:31:08 Now you can check, please? 22:36:45 -!- lifthrasiir has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:39:42 -!- futurestack has joined. 22:40:11 -!- Azstal has joined. 22:41:49 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 22:54:05 -!- notostraca has joined. 22:54:55 Anybody here used Parrot? 22:57:15 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:57:54 I never used Parrot, for one thing. 22:58:02 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:08:13 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:15:24 -!- notostraca_ has joined. 23:15:24 -!- notostraca has quit (Connection reset by peer). 23:15:27 -!- notostraca_ has changed nick to notostraca. 23:16:50 -!- notostraca_ has joined. 23:16:50 -!- notostraca has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:16:53 -!- notostraca_ has changed nick to notostraca. 23:20:35 * ehird wonders how to make wget update a [3%] type thingy and then remove it before exiting as a progress bar 23:20:41 -q is a little too... frozen 23:21:01 manpage only has two progress types... 23:22:33 Does anyone know about GameBoy program? 23:24:43 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:27:08 -!- zzo38 has joined. 23:27:16 If I make Washizu Mahjong game at anime convention next year, do you want to play game too? 23:29:48 I think zzo38 is the only person keeping us on topic 23:29:51 :-P 23:30:01 Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha 23:30:29 You missed a ha 23:30:38 Oops 23:30:43 Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha 23:30:52 no, at the start 23:30:56 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal. 23:31:53 :D 23:32:09 Anyway, I patched a patched version of cyg-apt. 23:32:29 AKAGI SHIGERU -vs- WASHIZU IWAO 23:32:51 http://pastie.org/614947.txt?key=uks5fzzhqvqroisjww31g 23:33:02 Result: Lightweight Cygwin setup.exe replacement with god-awful code. 23:36:18 http://pastie.org/614952.txt?key=cewwbbviaokbqc4wu2fsg Here ya go 23:38:00 You just need python and wget on top of the standard setup 23:39:07 Note that the mirror URL isn't the same as what setup.exe displays; google for what it displays + cygwin and you should find the file with the real path 23:40:07 I like how cygwin still ships with bash 3. It is truly cutting edge. 23:52:13 Disadvantage of that installer: doesn't seem to add menu icons 23:52:24 But you can do that with setup.exe afterwards, I think. 23:52:48 Hmm, no 23:53:21 Just add icons yourself, then 23:53:57 Or, a rather more pressing issue with mine is that it doesn't seem to actually install 23:54:54 WTF