00:00:05 Hmm, okay 00:00:05 -!- notostraca has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:00:14 It doesn't run postinstall scripts and the tar invocation must be failing. 00:00:37 -!- pedm has joined. 00:02:04 -!- pedm has left (?). 00:02:40 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:02:48 Bleh 00:02:53 No use hacking this script up further 00:03:00 Time to rewrite it in a way I can understand 00:03:13 -!- notostraca has joined. 00:03:50 * oerjan wonders what straca is and what is so negative about it 00:20:10 -!- notostraca_ has joined. 00:20:10 -!- notostraca has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:20:13 -!- notostraca_ has changed nick to notostraca. 00:32:19 http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/sourceware.org/pub/cygwin/setup.ini 00:32:24 Looks pretty simple 00:33:18 Been a while since I coded something "solid" in Python; at least I'm good at architecture. 00:36:24 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:43:47 -!- futurestack has quit ("outta here"). 00:46:21 "No one had done it before (and it is something useful), so that qualifies as "impossible" to me." 00:46:35 I am currently doing the impossible by living one second longer than anyone else before this second. 00:53:27 -!- notostraca_ has joined. 00:53:27 -!- notostraca has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:53:30 -!- notostraca_ has changed nick to notostraca. 00:55:47 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 00:56:16 Anyone know how autoconf etc distinguishes function from var? 00:56:18 like, 00:56:27 int main() { (void) symbol; return 0; } 00:56:34 is a pretty good way to check if a symbol exists 00:56:43 but what about function/not function? 01:01:31 -!- notostraca_ has joined. 01:01:31 -!- notostraca has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:01:36 -!- notostraca_ has changed nick to notostraca. 01:10:58 ehird: See config.log; it contains the source code for the checks. 01:11:12 I was afraid you'd say that. 01:11:20 Hrmm. Actually, it does that if the check fails. 01:11:23 Never mind. 01:11:29 lawl 01:12:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:13:08 It appears to be doing: int main () { return symbol(); ; return 0; } // and checking for compile errors. 01:16:22 -!- notostraca has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:16:24 -!- notostraca_ has joined. 01:16:43 * ehird ponders porting ghc to cygwin 01:16:52 otherwise I can't try out darcs that integrates with cygwin 01:17:42 Ooh, there's a Cygwin 1.7 on the way 01:17:51 HOLY FUCK YOU CAN SEARCH PACKAGES IN SETUP.EXE 01:17:54 All else is basically forgiven. 01:18:45 Still stuck on bash 3, why am I surprised 01:19:59 -!- Sgeo has joined. 01:22:54 -!- notostraca has joined. 01:22:54 -!- notostraca_ has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:24:16 -!- notostraca_ has joined. 01:24:16 -!- notostraca has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:24:19 -!- notostraca_ has changed nick to notostraca. 01:29:07 -!- notostraca has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:29:10 -!- notostraca has joined. 01:39:13 * ehird wonders how to run ./configure without a shell :-P 01:41:48 Poorly. 01:43:17 -!- notostraca_ has joined. 01:43:17 -!- notostraca has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:43:20 -!- notostraca_ has changed nick to notostraca. 01:44:26 pikhq: do you think they'll add support for windows batch? can't be worse than ksh -3.4.vendor2.release7.quirkversion.warezpatch 01:45:01 :P 01:45:23 ...no but seriously, I think I'll bootstrap my crazy endeavor to compile zsh on stock Windows with msys bash 01:46:00 did you hear that 01:46:02 compile zsh 01:46:04 on windows 01:46:08 with no compatibility layers 01:46:57 i am more insane than a flock of fish 01:47:00 or a shoal of cows 01:47:16 a shoal of MOTHERFUCKING cows. 01:48:41 of course now i have to persuade configure that that isn't msys behind the curtain 01:50:04 soon it'll hit fork 01:50:07 and die horribly 01:51:18 actually it just wants curses right now. 01:51:56 * ehird grabs pdcurses 01:56:02 -!- ehird_ has joined. 01:56:16 -!- ehird has quit (Nick collision from services.). 01:56:18 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 01:56:19 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 01:56:34 -!- ehird has joined. 01:58:09 -!- notostraca_ has joined. 01:58:09 -!- notostraca has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:58:12 -!- notostraca_ has changed nick to notostraca. 02:04:00 -!- notostraca_ has joined. 02:04:00 -!- notostraca has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:04:03 -!- notostraca_ has changed nick to notostraca. 02:04:23 does anyone know if graphviz has been ported to a different programming language (than C)? 02:04:34 -!- coppro has joined. 02:10:57 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 02:20:42 -!- notostraca_ has joined. 02:20:42 -!- notostraca has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:20:47 -!- notostraca_ has changed nick to notostraca. 02:24:14 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:27:54 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 02:28:21 -!- coppro has joined. 02:32:07 -!- augur_ has joined. 02:49:56 -!- notostraca_ has joined. 02:49:56 -!- notostraca has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:49:59 -!- notostraca_ has changed nick to notostraca. 02:55:30 -!- encoded has joined. 02:55:42 -!- encoded has left (?). 03:11:36 -!- notostraca has quit. 03:18:49 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:29:03 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 04:10:13 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:11:20 -!- coppro has joined. 04:20:39 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:21:52 -!- coppro has joined. 04:39:30 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:29:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:32:53 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 05:43:40 With Op. 10 I created two betas ... with Op11, I have a "work in progress preview" :P http://codu.org/music/Op11/GRegor-op11-wipp-1.ogg 05:47:22 Ooooh, Gregor opus. 05:52:14 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:58:11 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 06:03:19 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:19:05 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:19:17 -!- lifthrasiir has joined. 06:43:36 -!- bsmntbombdood has changed nick to bsmntbombdood___. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:06:07 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:34:25 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 08:52:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:19:12 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:21:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Client Quit). 09:22:05 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 09:40:20 -!- adam_d_ has joined. 10:38:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 10:51:24 -!- sebbu has joined. 10:57:06 -!- Slereah_ has joined. 11:09:12 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:12:36 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:17:05 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:27:17 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:42:12 when was the last time you used octal numbers? And in what language? 11:49:58 * oerjan cannot recall 11:50:22 x86 assembler, for a 'open' file-creation mode. It's oh-so-natural in that context. 11:50:55 nasm, to be precise; surprisingly enough it didn't interpret "0123" as octal, wanted a "0o" prefix there. 11:51:26 hm does that mean chmod counts as a use? although i really use a+x style 11:52:41 I'm not sure chmod counts as a programming language. 11:53:15 I don't recall last not-related-to-file-modes use of octal numbers, though. 11:54:14 * oerjan guesses there probably was some math puzzle involved, rather than actual programming (except to solve the puzzle) 11:54:23 but that's just me 11:55:41 "Share prices are more attuned to magic and many would visit regularly to pray." Today's mezzacotta seems related to the current crisis somehow... 11:57:37 hm 11:58:08 iwc :D 11:59:10 `calc 18.77 parsecs in light years 11:59:13 18.77 Parsecs = 61.2209126 light years 12:04:50 hm interesting poll variation 12:08:17 "He blings an army of crones to our cause" XD 12:17:39 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 12:59:27 anyone know unicode code point of = but with three lines? 12:59:49 wasn't able to find it after several minutes of searching 13:10:31 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 13:16:20 U+2261. 13:16:27 It's right there in the mathematical operators block. 13:16:59 ≡, "identical to". 13:18:52 -!- sebbu3 has joined. 13:25:44 fizzie, ah 13:30:11 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:38:22 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:01:26 -!- Pthing has joined. 14:28:23 -!- sebbu3 has changed nick to sebbu. 14:40:31 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 14:51:57 -!- CESSMASTER has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 14:54:09 -!- CESSMASTER has joined. 15:01:16 -!- ais523 has joined. 15:03:01 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 15:15:58 -!- comex has joined. 15:20:36 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:44:58 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:05:00 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 17:10:34 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:14:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:15:08 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:20:22 -!- coppro has joined. 17:36:17 -!- coppro has left (?). 17:38:18 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 17:39:01 -!- atrapado has joined. 17:50:23 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:52:00 -!- FireFly has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:52:46 -!- FireFly has joined. 18:11:35 01:58:24 i want a button that sodomises everyone who tries to fake native widgets repeatedly 18:12:22 I would like that; I could get back at the people who made the .NET MenuStrip and ToolStrip controls, which emulate that horrible "Office-style" look 18:12:37 If that is so, I'll have to start faking native widgets 18:12:40 What's a widget? 18:13:02 It's like a gadget, except more widdly. 18:13:43 Drawing real-looking menus on Vista+ isn't _that_ hard; I've done it. 18:35:59 -!- oerjan has joined. 18:37:01 i want a button that sodomises everyone who tries to fake native widgets repeatedly 18:37:20 you realize that would lead some people to make a lot of them, right? 18:37:20 what if they only try to fake native widgets once/ 18:38:30 If that is so, I'll have to start faking native widgets 18:39:07 STOP STEALING MY JOKES 18:39:12 IN ADVANCE 18:40:14 <3 18:40:14 -!- kar8nga has joined. 18:42:28 http://www.verb2verbe.com/conjugation/english-verb/snore.aspx <-- FAIL 18:42:45 xD 18:43:32 (i was trying to look up if snore was a strong verb i didn't know about since someone on the iwc forum inflected it as such) 18:44:23 but, well, that thing in the link was not among the options 18:47:24 hm it seems to be a specific error for that word, not for other verbs ending in e 18:48:16 If you disobey, you will be snoreed. 19:12:11 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 19:25:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:04:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:10:01 01:58:24 i want a button that sodomises everyone who tries to fake native widgets repeatedly <-- could I have one for "uses boost"? 20:10:39 :( 20:11:08 Asztal, what? libboost is a absolutely horrible pile of bloat and anti-design-patterns 20:11:19 it is like taking the worst of C++ and making it even worse 20:11:21 AnMaster: He uses boost in Stinkhorn :-P 20:11:32 I do agree, though :P 20:11:44 Deewiant, the worst part is that there is always one game or one program that you need that uses libbost 20:11:46 boost* 20:11:51 so you can't avoid installing it 20:12:31 It don't actually use the libraries, though, just the headers, because boost takes hours to build 20:12:37 often you end up needing a "newer than in package repo" version too, so you have to install the -dev packages for it as well (this only apply to binary distros obviously) 20:12:49 Asztal, I thought C++ already did? 20:13:39 Asztal, why the hell are you using the libboost headers though? 20:14:36 for things like shared_pointer, noncopyable, pool_allocator 20:15:30 Asztal, what are they for? 20:16:19 Smart pointer class, make class noncopyable and better allocator if one has large number of objects for the same class. 20:16:30 Asztal, oh and writing a pool allocator that allocated fixed sized chunks from large pools allocated with malloc was a 10 minute job in C. And about 40 lines of code. 20:16:59 AnMaster: Yours probably isn't quite as ultra-optimized as the one in Boost, though. 20:17:15 Deewiant, it is in cfunge... 20:17:15 ;P 20:17:32 oh, and lexical_cast, which is ugly and I should probably remove 20:17:40 Asztal, lexical cast? 20:17:42 what the hell 20:18:14 basically ToString and FromString that uses string streams 20:18:28 Ilari, smart pointers? Is that basically transparent ref count? 20:18:41 so if the data type can be written to an ostream, you can convert it to a string, and the same for istream. 20:18:48 or since it is C++, I bet it isn't very transparent in practise 20:19:26 Deewiant, is stinkhorn on the mycology results page? 20:19:59 hm 20:20:32 Asztal, stinkhorn sounds like it uses all the worst features of C++ 20:20:36 yes :D 20:20:47 Asztal, why... 20:20:55 ask me 3 years ago 20:21:07 Asztal, also what is the point of making a class non-copyable? 20:21:18 I mean, just don't do it if you don't want to 20:21:29 It's not that simple in C++. 20:21:40 AnMaster: It manages resources that don't make sense when copied? 20:22:02 C++ makes temporary copies of objects all over the place if you're not careful, for one 20:22:05 Ilari, well ok, why copy it then? can't you keep track of what you are doing yourself? 20:22:09 Asztal, oh right that 20:22:16 AnMaster: Yes, it is. 20:24:30 Deewiant, btw how could boost's pool allocator be more optimised? 20:24:46 better algorithm? if so, what one? 20:24:55 I don't know, and that's precisely why I'd use theirs instead of one of my own. 20:25:02 I suppose I should design a language with prepositions at some point. 20:25:14 Warrigal, sounds nice 20:25:33 Even C has "for" 20:25:35 ;-) 20:25:51 Deewiant, I think Warrigal meant like "assign that to it" 20:26:15 right? 20:26:31 "that" and "it" are both pronouns, not prepositions. 20:26:44 oh, indeed 20:26:46 meh 20:26:57 a language with pronouns would be nice 20:27:16 and applescript already has prepositions iirc 20:28:32 D has as many as "in", "for", and "with"! 20:29:18 Haskell only has "in" and "of"... maybe I should re-evaluate my preferred language 20:29:30 what about "while" 20:29:45 is it a preposition? 20:29:49 if not, what is it? 20:30:06 foldl1' with (>>) map (.) forkIO with hello onto names 20:30:07 It's a conjunction, in the typical use. 20:30:25 well, it can be a noun ("a while ago") but is it a noun in "while you are doing that, ..." 20:30:33 Deewiant, ah 20:31:02 Hmm, I don't know what part of speech it is in the subordinate clause "while you are doing that". 20:31:09 Conjunction? Adverb? 20:31:17 Conjunct-o-verb(TM)? 20:31:32 Conjunction. 20:31:58 You can't do that with other conjunctions. And there's a lot you can do with other conjunctions that you can't do with this. 20:32:06 I guess new parts of speech are long overdue. 20:32:30 "if you are doing that", "because you are doing that", etc... 20:32:46 "Or you are doing that". 20:33:07 Right, presumably there are subclasses among the conjunctions. 20:33:10 "I am eating some soup while a sandwich." 20:33:15 :-D 20:33:42 Warrigal, what word would work there? 20:33:46 "with"? 20:33:50 but that is a preposition right? 20:33:56 Yeah. 20:33:58 Yep: "while" is a subordinating conjunction, "or" is a coordinating conjunction << http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_conjunction 20:34:06 "Or" would work there. 20:34:10 ah 20:34:17 And "or" is a conjunction. 20:34:24 A coordinating one, I see. 20:35:37 what about the word "maybe" 20:35:42 I have no idea what class that is 20:35:48 Adverb. 20:35:52 ah 20:36:49 That's a thorough adverb. 20:36:54 It's the thoroughest. 20:37:08 Warrigal, ? 20:39:58 -!- augur_ has quit ("Leaving..."). 20:45:39 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:53:19 Deewiant, I suggest you update your mycology results page 20:53:30 I'm sure you do 20:53:31 since it says cfunge doesn't implement NCRS 20:53:37 which it does since months 20:54:12 Actually, it says cfunge 0.3.3 doesn't implement NCRS, which remains true 20:54:24 well ok 21:11:31 -!- zzo38 has joined. 21:16:48 -!- zzo38 has left (?). 21:20:14 -!- ehird has joined. 21:20:42 the hird of the sheeple 21:20:53 03:42:12 when was the last time you used octal numbers? And in what language? 21:20:54 yesterday 21:20:57 chmod 21:21:16 ehird, doubtful that is a programming language 21:21:27 * oerjan vus deja 21:21:30 or a language at all 21:21:32 oerjan, indeed 21:21:39 It's a Unix command that takes some input and a description of what to do of it and then outputs output accordingly. 21:21:51 Just like awk, sed, or find. 21:21:57 ehird, or cat? 21:22:02 ehird, or ls? 21:22:07 cat does not take a description of what to do with the input 21:22:08 or possibly even cd 21:22:11 ls, yes 21:22:13 cd, no 21:22:17 ehird, cat sure do 21:22:19 cat -e 21:22:21 for example 21:22:30 gno, it doesn't. 21:22:32 that replaces control codes with ^F 21:22:38 and so on 21:22:42 No, it doesn't. 21:22:44 gcat dose. 21:22:49 *does 21:22:57 And GNU is Not Unix in more than implementation./ 21:23:02 s/\/$// 21:23:11 gnaturally. 21:23:13 what about cat -u then? 21:23:18 oerjan, kreally? 21:23:21 AnMaster: posixcrap. 21:23:32 ehird, um? 21:23:34 AnMaster: gnearly so 21:23:49 AnMaster: -u is not unix, -u is a crappy hack 21:23:50 oerjan, knever! 21:24:11 "cat came back from Berkeley waving flags" --Rob Pike 21:24:18 ehird, -u is POSIX. SuS is a superset of POSIX. 21:24:31 Neither follow the unix philosophy. 21:24:42 ehird, and who is Rob Pike? 21:24:42 Unix is older than the bullshit pile known as POSIX. 21:24:45 ... 21:24:55 You are disqualified from EVER speaking about what is Unixy or not. 21:25:14 ais523, do you know who Rob Pike is? 21:25:14 Robe Pike, member of the original Unix team. 21:25:16 *Rob 21:25:19 no 21:25:22 see 21:25:27 it is perfectly normal 21:25:29 AnMaster: ais523 isn't arguing based on historical grounds what is unixy or not 21:25:31 * ais523 tends not to care about the names of programmers 21:25:34 you are 21:25:40 ehird, no I'm not. You are 21:25:44 ... 21:25:48 ehird, of course unix existed before POSIX 21:26:04 but these days, POSIX is very important in defining what *nix is 21:26:40 i wish i never answered your idiotic question. 21:27:10 ehird, chmod is not a programming language still 21:27:36 you do realise there is a chmod system call, retard? 21:27:44 ehird, yes and? 21:27:47 AnMaster: now you say that, you make me want to try to make chmod into a programming language 21:27:50 what has that got to do with it 21:27:53 but I seriously doubt it has any power at all 21:27:59 hmm.... maybe if you had a maze of symlinks 21:28:00 AnMaster: THAT TAKES AN OCTAL NUMBER AS A PARAMETER? 21:28:04 ais523, around deadfish? 21:28:12 and something that iterated over a directory structure, running all the executable things there 21:28:23 AnMaster: THAT TAKES AN OCTAL NUMBER AS A PARAMETER? <-- yes 21:28:28 AnMaster: I suspect even like that, chmod will be less powerful than Deadfish 21:28:32 int chmod(const char *path, mode_t mode); 21:28:41 where mode_t is in fact an integer 21:28:54 AnMaster: and you don't see how this is relevant? 21:29:03 ehird, well, it is a thin wrapper for the system call 21:29:08 are your neurons actually firing, AnMaster 21:29:10 so is, for example, cd 21:29:12 I haven't been paying attention; someone summarise the arguments? 21:29:26 while ls does a bit more work, with formatting and such 21:29:27 ais523: AnMaster is dense, I'm not 21:29:36 (this is a condensed version of the opposite summary AnMaster will give you) 21:29:49 ais523, I'm still waiting for ehird to get to the point 21:30:17 ok, the issue seems to be that in " when was the last time you used octal numbers? And in what language?", ehird's answer to the first question means there's no really sensible answer to the second 21:30:17 ehird, how is it more like a programming language than, cd or cat 21:30:25 ais523: yes, there is 21:30:28 assuming that the chmod call was from the commandline, rather than, say, from C or Perl 21:30:35 take, for example, bash 21:30:40 chmod 777 file 21:30:42 yes, bash would be another possibility 21:30:50 that's just as valid a programming statement as chmod(file, 0o777) 21:30:53 or whatever prefix 21:30:54 agreed 21:31:03 well that answer is valid 21:31:14 therefore, using it in chmod(1) absolutely counts as a valid reason to use it in a programming language, especially as you can use it in bash 21:31:16 that's my point 21:31:16 hmm... philosophical question: would you consider typical Makefiles to be programs? 21:31:16 but chmod itself is no programming language 21:31:20 ais523: yes 21:31:24 in the Make language 21:31:24 ais523, which is what ehird claimed 21:31:26 as opposed to ones designed specifically for programming 21:31:28 which is declarative 21:31:33 I'm inclined to think yes, too 21:31:34 and also has really weird semantics 21:31:51 ais523, isn't at least gnu make TC? 21:31:51 is make TC, by the way? 21:32:03 I'm pretty sure all makes are TC. 21:32:04 my guess is no for traditional make (probably due to lack of storage), yes for GNU make 21:32:09 Unless $(shell ) is some gnu-only thing 21:32:15 Which it probably is 21:32:33 I think traditional make would try to substitute the value of a variable called ( in there 21:32:39 although I'm not sure 21:32:41 Erm, no. 21:32:43 make's quoting rules are annoying 21:32:47 You do $(foo) for vars in make, always. 21:32:51 That's not a gnuism, that's a makeism. 21:33:00 ah, yes 21:33:02 well 21:33:04 I'm getting confuse 21:33:04 apart from things like $@ 21:33:05 *confused 21:33:09 I am disappoint. 21:33:10 anyway, time to go home 21:33:15 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:34:55 WebGL... Oh great. Obnoxious websites, making previously non-security-sensitive code (majority of 3D "driver" runs inside the application) remotely scriptable, etc... 21:35:42 Absolutely, we should stop designing technologies immediately if it turns out they can be used to be obnoxious in any way 21:35:54 :P 21:36:18 That latter (non-security-sensitive -> remotely scriptable) might be actually worse... 21:36:36 By driver do you mean your system's? 21:36:45 Ilari, any specific security issue? 21:36:46 Because running that in the browser is bizarre 21:37:43 No specific issue, but taking code that previously was not security sensitive and then making it remotely scriptable triggers my hinky detector.... 21:37:57 What code? 21:38:10 ehird, a large chuck of the opengl driver runs in libGL.so iirc. Which is inside the browser. The kernel/X bit of the driver is mostly talking to hardware and making sure more than one opengl app works side by side nicely. 21:38:20 Oh. 21:38:26 I'd expect libGL.so to be quite solid. 21:38:29 ehird, this is all IIRC. Note that 21:38:40 But I can't figure out how it'd be a security flaw. 21:39:04 ehird, anyway keeping most stuff out of kernel is good for security (obviously) 21:39:09 and same for X 21:39:33 since X runs as root for hardware access (though that is starting to change) 21:39:54 X is a shitpile, no point patching it up. It's insecure by design. 21:39:59 ehird: If code is not security sensitive, do you code very carefully to avoid buffer overflows (and even coding "very carefully" often isn't enough)? 21:40:07 ehird, and libGL.so = solid? 21:40:13 hah 21:40:21 AnMaster: Relatively, compared to the rest of the system. 21:40:23 ehird, at least not for nvidia libGL. I can say that much 21:40:30 Ilari: In a driver running in a shitload of programs? Yah, I do. 21:41:37 ehird: Normal drivers are usually security-sensitive. libGL.so isn't. 21:41:51 Why? Because it's used only in vidya gaems or something? 21:41:58 Until something (like WebGL) makes it remotely scriptable... 21:42:30 See ^ 21:42:34 Because it runs inside memory space of process using it and doesn't accept external untrusted input. 21:43:14 yep, most of the stuff libGL does is keeping state, consider how you do opengl programming ehird... 21:44:03 (and of course, translating it in some way when you finished adding polygons, and then sending it to X server) 21:44:18 It's as much of a security hole as anything else. 21:44:30 ehird, it wasn't before. that was the point. 21:44:32 By your argument, we shouldn't add new features to the browser: they're not coded super-carefully 21:44:38 (@Ilari, not AnMaster) 21:44:46 ehird, that is a straw man on what Ilari said. 21:44:49 No it's not 21:44:53 Actually, probably sending the polygon data directly to graphics card (maybe signaling kernel to DMA the whole buffer). 21:44:54 ehird, yes it is 21:44:59 Learn what "strawman" is, it's the exact same argument he used 21:45:13 Ilari, it probably goes through X using shm 21:45:34 ehird, no it isn't exactly the argument he used 21:45:54 Assertion match! Woohoo 21:46:05 ehird, because it was about when it exposes hardware access, not new features in general 21:46:07 quite different 21:46:11 ehird: Browser (or at least many parts of it) is security-sensitive. 21:46:24 adding something like canvas is quite different than canvas3d 21:46:41 ehird: Especially the javascript interpretter. And look at its security track record... 21:47:05 ehird: Non-security-sensitive code would probably be much much worse if exposed to scripting... 21:47:20 Ilari: uh, the js interpreter is way way less solid than libgl... 21:48:43 ehird, libgl hasn't been the target of exploits so far really. Because it tends to be hard to get at from a browser, unless you already used some exploit. And no server software is likely to have it loaded. 21:49:13 so that "less solid" doesn't mean much 21:49:14 Dude. Ilari is arguing that the JS interpreter is more solidly-coded than libgl. 21:49:19 I cannot entertain such insanity. 21:49:33 The JS interpreter in all browsers I know of gives no eye to security. 21:49:35 *give 21:49:39 *interpreters 21:49:40 ehird, I'm arguing that the js interpreter has been the target of a lot more exploiting attempts than libgl 21:50:11 ehird, it is like saying "mac os 9 is very secure, there are only around 15 viruses for it, compared to lots for windows 98" 21:50:22 or even windows xp or such 21:50:24 So are you arguing for or against Ilari? I can only construe that as against 21:50:30 ehird: If it didn't give any eye to security, attackers would *walk* all over it. 21:50:37 Ilari: they do 21:51:13 ehird, neither 21:51:31 Warrigal: Its quite insecure in practice, but attackers don't really walk all over it. 21:51:45 Warrigal... didn't say anything. 21:51:51 indeed... 21:51:52 Nobody starting with a W said anything :P 21:52:01 Well, w is next to e in qwerty. 21:52:05 Still. 21:52:15 And Warrigal is the first alphabetical completion. 21:52:17 STILL. 21:52:17 Oops... :-/ 21:52:29 anyway 21:52:33 I think Ilari has a point here 21:52:51 that libgl hasn't been something available to exploit before 21:53:08 while the js interpreter always is there 21:53:36 libpng is another one that has been targeted. Same for libjpeg and so on 21:54:18 but libgl has just not been something that was ever loaded into any of the apps you would target (server software, browsers, email clients, ...) 21:54:50 Not all exploits using JS are in javascript interpretter itself. It can also assist in exploiting other bugs... But those are still in security-sensitive parts. 21:55:11 libpng, libjpeg, libz, all secuirty sensitive... 21:55:32 ehird, thus liubgl is less carefully reviewed by both good and bad guys for security issues than something that is easier to get at 21:55:52 Ilari, yes and those have been quite well reviewed, and had a number of CVEs 21:56:08 but libgl had no CVE afaik 21:57:11 also libgl bugs are common. but so far, the worst that led to was misrendering, or in worst case, segfault 21:57:16 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:57:29 ehird, I would not call libgl solid 21:57:30 at all 21:57:39 more solid than a JS impl. 21:57:41 Well, if some piece of code is written in language where buffer overflows are possible (without exploiting the runtime), don't use extraordinary measures to be buffer-overflow-free, function in security-sensitive function and don't have CVEs, then probably they haven't been audited throughly enough. 21:57:42 Anyway, the v1 iPhone OS was jailbroken with a hole in... libjpeg? Or libtiff or something. 21:58:21 You went to jailbreakme.com and it showed an image; it had the invalid image/404 icon on it, but your phone froze, a progress bar came up, and jailbreaked it. 21:58:25 *jailbroke 21:58:27 Ilari, and there is more than one libGL. My laptop and desktop use different ones 21:58:38 generic open source one, and nvidia one 21:59:24 ehird, what is the point you are trying to make here? it seems you are arguing for Ilari now. 21:59:35 I was just commenting. 21:59:58 I run browser as a different user account 22:00:02 just FYI 22:00:10 In this case, that diversity probably doesn't protect that much, because attack doesn't need to commit on one... And there are probably vendor strings available anyhow... 22:00:28 I find it possible to be surprised. You probably run everything as a different user account, in case someone exploits your IRC client. 22:00:35 Ilari, my point was that nvidia one is a binary blob 22:00:37 even worse 22:00:53 One wonders how the fuck you expect people to exploit you browser more than any other piece of software if you disable JS. 22:01:10 ehird, you just provided an example 22:01:19 "More than any other piece of software" 22:01:26 No part of AnMaster's system apart from his browser displays images. 22:01:28 Astonishing. 22:01:30 ehird, and yes irc is a different acount. 22:01:33 account* 22:01:36 BTW: The standard-issue browser doesn't *support* JS. It just doesn't have it disabled, it just plain does not support it. 22:01:51 *standard-issue browser I use 22:01:56 AnMaster: cool, it's not even possible to satirize you. 22:01:57 Ilari, what browser is that? 22:02:07 lynx, I guess. 22:02:08 Or w3m. 22:02:10 Links2, both in text and graphics mode. 22:02:11 Or elinks. 22:02:13 Or links. 22:02:21 Ilari, ah 22:02:48 Ilari, any CVE for links2? 22:03:05 nc(1) has no security flaws, at least as a client. 22:03:15 Nor does sed if you want prettier pages. 22:03:42 ehird, how do you know nc has no buffer overflow? 22:03:53 -!- atrapado has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 22:03:55 and sed for that matter 22:04:14 oh and, the sed script must be reviewed for faulty code 22:04:25 Because nc is some 6,000 lines of sharp code. 22:04:29 not buffer overflow, of course, but otherwise bad code 22:04:34 AnMaster: AFAIK, there is. 22:04:34 A lot of that is server-based. 22:04:39 Ilari, heh 22:05:33 Or at least, there have been security bug reports against Links2. 22:05:36 12:10:01 01:58:24 i want a button that sodomises everyone who tries to fake native widgets repeatedly <-- could I have one for "uses boost"? 22:05:38 Boost isn't that bad. 22:05:45 For C++. 22:06:00 Ilari: I think he thought you meant there was a buffer flow in nc 22:06:02 *overflow 22:06:13 22:03ehird, how do you know nc has no buffer overflow? 22:06:15 22:04AnMaster: AFAIK, there is. 22:06:17 22:04Ilari, heh 22:06:21 Ilari: I think he thought you meant there was a buffer flow in nc <-- no 22:06:23 ... 22:06:26 I'm not stupid 22:06:43 Apparently you're telepathic 22:07:16 ehird, it followed from the context of highlights 22:07:33 Yep, nobody ever replies to a message not directed at them 22:07:41 No matter how old the highlight it is it must be that 22:07:59 ehird, now you are just silly, it was crystal clear from the context what was intended 22:08:20 No, it wasn't, because it was non-obvious to me, for instance. 22:08:30 If a message makes sense as a response to the latest highlight, assuming it was intended for that is reasonable. 22:08:38 I don't find that true in practice. 22:08:39 ehird, that says more about you, than about the context. 22:08:40 12:16:30 Asztal, oh and writing a pool allocator that allocated fixed sized chunks from large pools allocated with malloc was a 10 minute job in C. And about 40 lines of code. 22:08:48 yes, why not waste 10 minutes to produce non-optimal code 22:09:00 using an optimised ready-made version? inconceivable 22:09:16 ehird, well note C vs. C++ for example. 22:09:21 Reminds me of one program I wrote. Immediately after receive buffer there was PROT_NONE page. So any overflow of receive buffer is instant SIGSEGV (and the program had no SIGSEGV handler)... 22:09:26 12:20:32 Asztal, stinkhorn sounds like it uses all the worst features of C++ 22:09:33 you seem to be defining that as "everything apart from classes" 22:10:12 * AnMaster puts ehird on ignore for now, until the nonsense log reading comments finished 22:10:23 if you read on, you will see that Asztal agreed for example 22:10:29 Good idea. You might read something you disagree with. 22:10:53 Oh, I see! Asztal made a statement supporting "stinkhorn using the worst features of C++", therefore my comment about the surrounding context in which you seemed to dislike everything that wasn't classes must therefore be false. 22:10:56 Amazing. 22:11:17 12:22:05 Ilari, well ok, why copy it then? can't you keep track of what you are doing yourself? 22:11:25 ...and that's why AnMaster defines every type in his C program as int 22:12:34 -!- coppro has joined. 22:15:14 BTW, if you want to see horrible C++ code, look at Firefox code. Not using those "horrible" C++ features results quite horrible code... 22:15:47 XPCOM fuck yeah 22:15:55 I think Firefox does it because bad C++ compilers don't support pretty much anything on top of C besides classes... 22:15:56 Breaking your mind and shit yeah 22:16:36 Ilari, firefox does what? 22:17:07 -!- augur has joined. 22:17:34 If you want to really test C++ compiler, test wheither it survives some tricky partial template specialization. ICEs and segfaults ahead if the compiler isn't really stable... 22:17:56 Firefox's source code is pretty much entirely awful. 22:18:17 AnMaster: IIRC, at least some time ago (probably still), it didn't even use exceptions(!). 22:18:19 I shudder to think that that's the result of a *rewrite* of it... 22:18:40 Ilari, heh 22:19:03 pikhq, eh? when was it rewritten? 22:19:15 AnMaster: It was originally Netscape 4. 22:19:25 It still doesn't use them, AFAIK, but they're working on automated rewriting for that 22:19:31 The Mozilla Project rewrote the entire thing. 22:19:46 pikhq, ah that far back. yeah that was probably horrible. 22:20:25 pikhq, rewrote each part one at a time? or started from scratch entirely? 22:20:51 Scratch. 22:20:53 Started from scratch. 22:21:00 Netscape 3's code was altogether better, from what I hear. 22:21:03 then what was the point of having the netscape code there at all? 22:21:08 Netscape 4 is massively a result of the second system syndrome. 22:21:09 Not much. 22:21:15 mhm 22:22:56 Pretty much the only bit of code that remained was Netscape's "NGLayout" code. NGLayout was Netscape's attempt to rewrite the layout code. 22:22:57 And C++ is not just C with classes. The proper programming style is quite different. 22:23:01 It went on to become XUL. 22:24:42 And why does Firefox seem to be the most bloated and resource-hungry web browser? Konqi even with all of its KDE stuff seems lighter... 22:25:03 Because it's poorly written. 22:26:05 Chrome is double-plus good. 22:26:07 Ilari, I use konqueror usually, unless some site doesn't work well in it 22:26:19 ...but uses quite a bit of memory due to the process-per-tab thing. 22:26:35 Midori or something if you want more straight WebKit without that (and also without the fast JS), I guess. 22:26:41 How much dirty memory does Chrome use? 22:27:05 * ehird about:memory 22:27:14 Ilari: Define "dirty"; I don't think Windows has a notion of it 22:28:01 Pretty much all OSes with virtual memory have notion of clean and dirty memory... 22:28:36 Dity memory => Pages that have been written and thus can't be discarded from memory (but must be swapped out). 22:28:47 But, real memory: private 229,732kiB + shared 5,431kiB = 235,163kiB; nine tabs (one is a popup from another tab and interacts with JS stuff so is in the same process) and one process for the browser. 22:28:59 Those pages are all quite heavy. 22:29:12 Virtual memory: private 335,984kiB, mapped 100,204kiB. 22:29:24 All direct quotes from about:memory. 22:29:27 Well, with formatting. 22:29:43 I can't measure it in Task Manager, as they're all separate processes. 22:30:20 The values range for each process from around 18MB to 53MB. I guess that the ~3.5MB one is the browser process. 22:30:24 (MB, not MiB.) 22:30:33 Konqueror's not a stellar web browser, but it manages to be much less bloated than Firefox simply by merit of *making design decisions*. 22:30:33 Firefox is a good example of feature creep. 22:31:13 indeed :( 22:31:17 Chrome's nice and simple; the only interface apart from a tabbar and back/forwards, refresh, bookmark, the bar (both address and search) and a go button is two icon menus: a document and a wrench. 22:31:33 The document is zoom, copy/paste, encoding, developer tools, etc: page stuff. 22:31:47 The wrench is new tab, full screen, about, exit, options, etc: browser stuff. 22:32:08 It's very well designed. 22:33:16 Its possible to make a process that would have private memory >1GiB (mostly residen't or not), but only few pages (~10KiB) of dirty memory. 22:33:25 Still, it's not like the memory usage is correlated with bad performance; having the fastest rendering and JS engine and using native Windows widgets (albeit restyled) it's very fast. 22:33:35 Ilari: Probably all the tabs I haven't used are paged out. 22:33:42 *add recently after used 22:33:55 Dirty memory is dirty memory even after its paged out. 22:34:06 I'm not a memory system guy, so I wouldn't know./ 22:34:08 s/\/$/ 22:36:26 If you have N copies of some process, with everything resident, the memory usage would be union of all clean memory plus sum of all dirty memory. 22:36:46 Well, chrome does note the shared memory total. 22:37:00 Also, those totals include about:memory. 22:37:20 Anyway, 5,250kiB of the 249,710kiB non-virtual memory is shared, according to it. 22:37:30 So not a lot. 22:38:24 At least on Linux, shared libraries are mapped as private mappings. But all clean (non-dirty) pages are shareable. 22:39:07 Windows probably just uses shaman magic. 22:39:52 Taking qbittorrent process I have running here. Its VMSIZE is ~163M, shared is ~4M. But only ~30M of its memory is dirty. 22:39:57 -!- adam_d_ has quit ("Leaving"). 22:44:09 The private/shared is not accurate measurement of how much memory two processes share and how much they don't. 22:44:33 True, but I can't give you better without either bloating my system with software to measure it or hacking up something myself, sorry. 22:45:04 Yeah, windows doesn't have equivalent of Linux /proc/X/smaps 22:47:28 (list of VMAs process has plus memory usage information for each). 22:49:41 Say, does apt have pluggable backends or do you need only one server format/type/etc, I wonder. 22:50:00 Instead of hacking up my own tool I could write an apt module backed by the cygwin package lists... 22:50:29 At least, apt can be pointed to servers on net and to CD-type media... 22:50:40 But the backing format it looks at is the same there. 22:50:51 I believe it's designed for dpkg format, yes 22:50:54 I could write a script to convert it on a server, but "meh". 22:51:00 coppro: That's the package format, not the package list. 22:51:18 .debs are just tars, and so are decompressed cygwin packages, so I could easily hack that up client-side. 22:51:21 I know 22:51:26 But the package list is quite different, I think. 22:51:32 but I mean the package list is a specific format 22:51:45 it's the format of the Debian control file 22:51:50 I know. 22:51:56 But apt is quite modular, isn't it? 22:52:21 I don't know 22:52:25 :P 22:52:25 never bothered 22:52:51 Obviously it's impractical for me to maintain a mirror of all Cygwin packages in .deb format, but I guess I could handle converting the cygwin.ini. 22:53:21 But apt passes its packages off to dpkg, whereas it handles the package lists itself, so I expect exactly the wrong things are modular. Grr. 22:53:40 lol 22:54:22 I've hacked together my own tool for this before, it's not hard 22:54:39 Tool for what? 22:54:46 Converting every single Cygwin package to .deb? 22:55:00 I'm not maintaining and serving thousands of large files on a server . 22:55:02 *server. 22:55:20 for dependency analysis in a client-side package manager 22:55:42 Oh, you mean an apt replacement. 22:55:53 Yes, I can write my own tool; that's what I was doing. It will not be as flexible, powerful or comfortable as apt. 22:56:10 I wouldn't classify it as a replacement, but yes 22:56:30 you could just steal the apt source 22:56:33 Cygwin IS basically a Linux system, and Linux systems deserve apt. 22:56:48 coppro: Of course I'll have to patch apt. I just hope that it's modular, so I can only patch the relevant bits. 22:57:12 That'll be fun, actually. Install dpkg with Cygwin, dpkg -i apt-cygwin.deb, vi /etc/sources/apt.list. 22:57:22 (apt-get update, etc.) 23:04:26 Does anyone know how to tell Sumatra PDF to reset the settings for this document to my global default? 23:06:15 Meh. 23:15:42 I wonder, if there are things like bb4win, are there tiling window managers for windows? 23:15:54 *Windows 23:16:37 "An assault weapon is a political [1][citation needed] term" <-- err ok. Whatever. 23:16:40 night btw 23:16:47 -> 23:16:56 You're not Finnish, stop that. 23:17:14 <- 23:17:14 AnMaster: Also, you're still here. 23:17:16 and? 23:17:19 Told you. 23:17:23 really leaving now 23:17:24 -> 23:17:26 -><- 23:17:27 Suure. 23:19:57 ->@--/\-Z__|\--> 23:20:07 Incidentally, Windows has hover-to-focus built-in. 23:24:28 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:24:30 * ehird writes a little build system for a fake program using sh to configure a config.mk file... 23:24:34 To see if it works. 23:25:27 -!- Slereah has joined. 23:27:44 -!- fizzie has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:30:34 http://www.windowsizer.com/ ;; would be nicer if it was one of the linux ones ported. Still downloading to try out. 23:33:33 -!- fizzie has joined. 23:33:46 Eh, that thing doesn't auatomatically tile. 23:37:31 Meh, I'm going to maintain my own set of cygwin .debs 23:37:35 how is it any better than 'Show windows side by side' on the task bar then? :| 23:37:50 Asztal: It can do more arrangements and has preferred arrangements and stuff. 23:38:06 But it certainly doesn't automatically handle resizes... hmm... maybe it doesn't work on >XP 23:38:39 yeah 23:38:44 reading the site, almost certainly 23:38:47 it's that 23:38:52 Given that it says "Re-sizing one window automatically resizes adjacent windows", sounds broken 23:39:40 yeah 23:39:42 oh well 23:40:07 hmm... if a deb is just an .ar with some special stuff and a cygwin package is just a .tar.bz2 with some special stuff, it can't be too hard to convert them 23:40:09 * ehird installs cygwin 1.7 23:40:21 ...and uses the Experimental package versions 23:40:24 they're still ancient, but eh 23:41:17 I'm not even sure anything is tagged experimental 23:50:51 Exp tags everything as "Skip". Fuck that, then. 23:51:13 So Cygwin 1.7 "current" is the most up-to-date Cygwin you can get. 23:51:27 Now featuring bash 3 plus 0.0.0.1 extra from the past release. 23:52:04 Apt is rather easy to patch, I *believe*. 23:52:15 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 23:52:27 And that's definitely a good idea; Cygwin's setup.exe sucks. 23:52:42 All of Cygwin sucks, it's a shoddy system. 23:52:53 True. 23:53:05 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:53:17 But the only alternative, MSYS, is just a really old fork of Cygwin and sucks more (to compile executables for it you need to use a patched gcc 2; nobody bothers to update it because MSYS is supposed to be just a tool with which to run MinGW) 23:54:20 GNU bash, version 2.04.0(1)-release (i686-pc-msys) 23:54:28 Fuck yeah. 23:54:47 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 23:56:05 -!- coppro has joined. 23:56:31 Especially annoying is that no terminal program for Windows has the balls to try and emulate cmd.exe properly, so for calling out to Windows command-line programs you have to use cmd.exe. 23:56:51 Oh, and MSYS has one huge advantage over Cygwin: it automatically translates Unix pathnames if you call a Windows tool. 23:57:06 None of this $(cygpath -xyzzy ...) bullshit. 23:57:52 isn't msys deprecated or something? 23:58:10 No. 23:58:15 But. 23:58:19 23:53But the only alternative, MSYS, is just a really old fork of Cygwin and sucks more (to compile executables for it you need to use a patched gcc 2; nobody bothers to update it because MSYS is supposed to be just a tool with which to run MinGW) 23:58:21 23:54GNU bash, version 2.04.0(1)-release (i686-pc-msys) 23:58:23 23:54Fuck yeah. 23:58:33 oh 23:58:45 But it's still supported and a prominent feature of the site, yes. 23:59:03 :/ 23:59:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:59:44 Really, I just want bash, coreutils like stuff, vi, rxvt and a few other things.