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01:15:53 <ehird> * ehird submits login form
01:16:01 <ehird> <Epiphany> ? [OK] [Cancel]
01:16:09 <ehird> (except without the ?, just wanted to show it was a dialog box)
01:20:03 <Ilari> That's why applications used by (l)users that show dialogs should have feature that logs for each dialog box: Who got it, When, what was the title, what was the message, what were the choices, what choice user made and how long it took for user to decide. :->
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01:22:34 <ehird> Ilari: Or just not pop up empty dialog boxes :P
01:23:57 <Ilari> Ah, the ultimate "dilemma dialog"... Dialog box with no text and two buttons, "Yes" and "No".
01:24:07 <ehird> Yes, that's what Epiphany gave me.
01:24:09 <ehird> Ilari: Also, wouldn't that be better displayed by repeating the dialog box with the chosen option in the push-down state and the unchosen option greyed out?
01:24:22 <ehird> Same with any checkboxes on it, etc.
01:26:35 <ehird> Ilari: In fact, why not just constantly capture a video of the screen? :P
01:28:31 <Ilari> ehird: Would take too much space.
01:28:44 <ehird> Ilari: How big is your disk?
01:30:05 <Ilari> ehird: This is old and crappy computer: 39 036 692KiB FS total space.
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01:31:41 <ehird> `calc 39 036 692 kilobytes in gigabytes
01:31:42 <HackEgo> www.ngindex.com/browsegroup.php?groupid=150 - [15]Cached - [16]Similar
01:31:49 <ehird> `calc 39036692 kilobytes in gigabytes
01:31:50 <HackEgo> 39 036 692 kilobytes = 37.2282906 gigabytes
01:32:35 <Ilari> RAM size is quite "ouch" as well...
01:38:05 <Ilari> Unfortunately, buying new computer isn't just going to large deparment store and buying something... At least not if you at all care what you get...
01:44:28 <ehird> Buying a ThinkPad and plugging a monitor into it is probably the easies/cheapest way to get a good prebuilt computer :P
01:45:10 <ehird> Doesn't exactly matter if you plug in a monitor and peripherals.
01:45:26 <Ilari> Well... Let's just say that "prebuilt" is not an absolute requirement...
01:45:34 <ehird> Of course, I was just responding to that line.
01:46:08 <ehird> But really, it's not exactly hard... you only need a handful of components and the choice is usually clear.
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01:48:21 <Ilari> Case, PSU, CPU, Memory, Motherboard, optical drive, HDD, Video card (if you care about video performance or motherboard has no video controller), NIC (again if not integrated), FDD (if one really wants one)... Anything else?
01:48:43 <Ilari> Ah, sound card (if not integrated).
01:49:24 <ehird> Forget video card, NIC and FDD: get a motherboard with those integrated (Nvidia for the graphics, due to having the best Linux performance and good performance in general) and who uses floppy (although it's a $5 affair)
01:49:41 <ehird> So case, PSU, CPU, memory, mobo, optical, drive, maybe floppy drive.
01:51:40 <ehird> newegg is the thing to find what to buy, although not to actually buy unless you're in the US... but there isn't much actual choosing to do: optical drives are pretty much the same unless you're talking pricey.
01:51:56 <ehird> Same with cases above a minimum baseline, unless you care a lot about noise levels.
01:52:14 <ehird> So there's pretty much five choices to make, and they're mainly based on budget...
01:52:30 <Ilari> Probably best to start with motherboards, then that constrains memory/CPU...
01:52:46 <ehird> Ilari: although the best thing to decide is AMD or Intel imo
01:53:00 <ehird> but that basically comes down to budget
01:53:23 <Ilari> Some serious old-school, but I would really like PS/2 input ports and VGA output... :-)
01:53:34 <ehird> Every mobo has that, except maybe VGA.
01:53:44 <ehird> You could also get PS/2 adapters, unless you really hit more than six keys at once.
01:54:08 <ehird> Mobo is pretty constrained, though, as there aren't all that many desktop mobos with Nvidia graphics.
01:54:17 <ehird> Less than ATI, I'd say. Although I'm not sure there.
01:54:55 <Ilari> More "ouch" from this computer: current X graphics driver: fb.
01:56:40 <ehird> As far as CPUs go it's pretty simple... AMD if you're on a budget, otherwise a Core 2 Duo, or a Quad if you care about performance, or a Core i7 if you *really* care about performance and have infinite money...
01:56:41 <Ilari> And it isn't going to be gaming setup. So I don't think graphics performance is that important. Stability is.
01:57:01 <ehird> nvidia drivers for linux are the second most stable to intel, but the Intel drivers are really, really, really bad
01:57:28 <ehird> probably slower than your fb there
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01:58:54 <ehird> Hmm, I said five choices, but PSU is pretty much "get the highest-rated ~300-350W in your budget" unless you have a beefy CPU...
02:00:08 <ehird> And then CPUs and therefore motherboards aren't choices either, being primarily budget-based... and cases don't matter as long as they're not plastic crap... and memory is basically DDR2 vs DDR3, and since DDR2 is cheaper and most cpus/mobos don't support DDR3...
02:00:14 <ehird> So the only choice is the drive.
02:00:30 <Ilari> If one can get kernel-level framebuffer, then one could configure X to use fb. That should get crappy drivers out of hotpath... :-/
02:01:05 <ehird> Ilari: The proprietary Nvidia drivers are pretty much rock-solid, being used by a huge portion of Linux users.
02:01:28 <ehird> Although if I wouldn't accept any proprietary software at all, I'd get an Intel card and deal with the slowness...
02:01:53 <ehird> ...but then I'd also use that funky non-free-stuff extracted kernel, as that's about as non-free
02:05:34 <Ilari> Heh... I just thought about video driver stability: "What could posibly go wrong with vesafb" (not many video cards support that but)... Since in normal operation it essentially is device that just exports mapping of I/O memory. :->
02:09:26 <ehird> But it's nice to have speed greater than a tortoise.
02:12:55 <ehird> Ilari: I think you'd like that splitting window manager for the linux console I found a while back :-P
02:14:14 <Ilari> Not enough charcters. Fullscreen Xterm is 212 by 76 characters.
02:14:29 <ehird> Ilari: You can have framebuffer consoles.
02:14:39 <ehird> and this was what the "screenshots" given used, I think
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02:37:38 <ehird> Solution for Evince PDF-in-browser with mozplugger displaying the menu: change evince to evince --preview.
02:37:57 <ehird> Kittens and bunnies will fly out of your nose. Also a rainbow.
02:54:28 <ehird> Two downsides of mozplugger+Evince:
02:54:37 <ehird> With preview mode, at least, in Epiphany a new window flashes for a split second.
02:54:59 <ehird> Also, it sucks up all your keybindings so you can't go back or close the window or anything... which *really* sucks.
03:01:00 <ehird> Why oh why do crazy people want a calendar integrated to their email client?
03:01:02 <ehird> Different. things!
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03:36:57 <augur> have you seen the brief intro to the haskell "object" language?
03:37:44 <augur> in attempting to optimize the ghc, the ghc people invented this language beneath haskell
03:37:48 <augur> its a sort of minimalist haskell
03:37:53 <augur> with only like 7 core operations
03:37:57 <augur> and with multi-lambdas
03:38:36 <augur> that genuinely take multiple values as arguments (without returning a lambda to do so) and return multiple values
03:38:47 <augur> and its like impossible to read. lol
03:41:17 <oerjan> is this something new or just the old ghc core or g-machine thing?
03:41:29 <oerjan> i cannot recall anything about multiple _returns_
03:41:39 <augur> its not a multiple return in HASKELL
03:41:45 <augur> but rather in the intermediate language
03:41:59 <oerjan> in the stg-machine, silly
03:42:10 <augur> maybe, i dont know.
03:42:11 <oerjan> i browsed a paper on it once
03:42:14 <augur> i forget what they called this.
03:42:19 <augur> theres a video out recently about it tho
03:42:32 <oerjan> spineless tagless g-machine was the old version at some point
03:42:53 <oerjan> but it's probably been changed to unrecognizability years ago
03:43:48 <augur> <> is the equivalent of () in c-like languages
03:43:54 <augur> its sort of an argument tuple
03:43:56 <augur> but not a data structure.
03:44:01 <augur> so like a lambda of no args is
03:44:24 <augur> a lambda of one arg \<x> -> ...
03:44:31 <augur> and you apply it similarly
03:44:39 <augur> f = \<> -> 5; f <>
03:44:52 <augur> f = \<x> -> 5; f <10>
03:47:30 <augur> and because haskell is lazy
03:47:43 <augur> all haskell function arguments are effectively thunks
03:47:49 <augur> and are implemented thusly
03:48:17 <ehird> i'm pretty sure that is Core.
03:48:22 <augur> so in the intermediate language, something like haskell type Int -> Int would become (<> -> Int) -> (<> -> Int)
03:48:27 <augur> so they have ANOTHER bracketting convention
03:48:30 <ehird> also, are you really educating us on haskell? come on now.
03:48:32 <augur> that <> -> x is just {x}
03:48:42 <augur> so the whole intermediate language is impossible to read
03:49:18 <augur> ~ <(<> -> Int, <> -> Int)>
03:49:44 <augur> ~ just (Int, Int) ? or something.
03:49:59 <augur> or maybe its <{({Int},{Int})}>
03:50:01 <augur> i dont even know man
03:50:07 <pikhq> ehird: Core is much more readable than what he's proposing. Core is nearly a subset of Haskell...
03:50:17 <pikhq> s/proposing/discussing/
03:50:18 <ehird> He's not proposing anything.
03:50:32 <augur> and they do all sorts of weird things like having all functions really be wrappers for these
03:51:06 <augur> f = \x -> \y -> x+y has a lifted version defined f' = \<x,y> -> x+y
03:51:13 <augur> and the normal version defined in terms of it
03:51:33 <augur> f = \x -> \y -> f' <x,y>
03:52:09 <augur> which lets them do all sorts of weird optimizations like any thing you see f 1 2 the compiler just replaces that with the simpler f' 1 2
03:52:42 <augur> the language itself has only like 7 core operations. which is interesting.
03:52:56 <augur> everything else is defined in terms of those
03:53:08 <augur> http://www.vimeo.com/6688091
03:53:09 <ehird> augur: This is almost certainly not GHC's underlying form.
03:53:23 <ehird> GHC compiles to C-- before machine code. C-- is *far* richer in semantics.
03:53:37 <ehird> This lesser-semantic version almost certainly doesn't optimise better.
03:53:39 <ehird> augur: in what version?
03:53:49 <augur> this might be intermediate between GHC and C-- even
03:53:59 <augur> i dont know, just watch the video.
03:54:02 <ehird> Which is also semantically much richer.
03:54:08 <ehird> Does it work without audio?
03:54:30 <ehird> Uh, how long is this thing?
03:54:40 <augur> half an hour maybe?
03:54:41 <ehird> augur: that video is a proposal
03:54:46 <ehird> not something accepted
03:54:49 <ehird> look at the introduction
03:55:09 <augur> im pretty sure he said its what theyre moving towards presently.
03:55:45 <augur> maybe its not fully implemented in the standard builds and such
03:56:05 <augur> thats irrelevant to the point
03:56:12 <augur> this shit is craaaazy
03:56:12 <ehird> and we don't diss her
03:56:16 <ehird> OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH SNAP
03:56:36 <augur> check out the video tho dude
03:56:59 <ehird> some people are borderline ADHD, so am I
03:57:09 <ehird> except it's the border at the other side
03:57:27 <ehird> i have trouble paying attention to music videos!
03:57:40 <ehird> gimme a text transcript and I might read it in spurts :P
04:09:08 <augur> im off to code, read, then sleep
04:11:46 <ehird> augur's OS is single-tasking.
04:13:15 <ehird> you can't code and irc simultaneously :P
04:13:40 <augur> and extraordinarily tired
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04:50:36 <ehird> Anyone know how to make evince always use continuous mode?
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06:20:07 <ehird> Hey, r.e.s. is wiking again.
06:22:26 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BitBitJump&diff=next&oldid=15588
06:22:27 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BitBitJump&diff=next&oldid=15696
06:22:32 <ehird> seems Oleg has an attitude problem.
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06:31:56 <ehird> http://www.hungry.com/old-hungry/products/gwp/gwp-screenshot-30-10-1998.png ;; jesus christ
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06:55:40 <ehird> ẞo, Unicode haß had a ußeful character for capitalising ßnakes since 2008: ẞ, capital ß.
06:57:42 <ehird> "From addressing point of view BitBitJump is in the same category as Subleq or any microprocessor assembly language. If I understand correctly, you say that the language is TC given the word size enough (and memory) for an algorithm, but not TC if the memory or the word size is finite. That would be true for any TC language with limited memory. However, to make a language TC, as I mentioned above, you do not need infinite memory inside the abstract machine
06:57:42 <ehird> . The pragmatics of the language (or environment) can be changed so, that it can provide enough external memory to realize a particular algorithm."
06:57:44 <ehird> Argh, the stupid burns.
07:06:04 <ehird> is it just me, or are spreadsheets like an unstructured combination of a mathematical environment and a record-keeping environment, with the former being forced into columns and rows because it wouldn't work otherwise?
07:06:10 <ehird> clearly we need an esoteric spreadsheet
07:06:31 <ehird> all the features are specially tuned to let you use the bizarre equations, and to dissuade all record keeping
07:11:27 <ehird> lifthrasiir: ooh, how about circular? then you can have infinite cells
07:11:31 <ehird> covering up the tiny holes
07:11:41 <ehird> zooming spreadsheet interface
07:11:56 <lifthrasiir> and at the end it stores both formula (=code) and data in the one sheet, just like funge
07:12:51 <lifthrasiir> so if i recall correctly someone made excel implementation of funge (or orthogonal, whichever)... right?
07:15:14 <ehird> in funge, you mean?
07:15:29 <ehird> lifthrasiir: an implementation in VBA macros you mean?
07:15:57 <ehird> meh, that's just a visual basic implementation then
07:16:18 <ehird> spreadsheets are quite pure mathematically, but I don't know if they're a very good model for actual things...
07:16:28 <ehird> which is why an esoteric one would be fun
07:17:08 <lifthrasiir> in my opinion spreadsheets are just like RDBMS. there are tasks suitable for RDBMS (and thus spreadsheets) and tasks not suitable for them.
07:17:50 <ehird> you mean they are like RDBMS or they are like RDBMS in their suitability?
07:18:20 <ehird> i don't think they are like RDBMS at all: a spreadsheet is fundamentally a 2-dimensional vector of equations operating on the vector
07:18:25 <lifthrasiir> obviously spreadsheet lacks general JOINability, but that doesn't make much difference
07:18:33 <ehird> and depending on those elements they use
07:18:45 <ehird> RDBMSs are far more static
07:18:50 <ehird> they don't have that dependency-based calculation
07:20:34 <lifthrasiir> ah i don't argue that spreadsheet can be translated to (or back from) RDBMS of course. :)
07:20:42 <ehird> i just don't think they're similar :)
07:21:01 <ehird> i mean as far as a 2d grid of numbers goes, sure, but that's totally not what spreadsheets are about
07:21:03 <lifthrasiir> i just want to point out some similarities.
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07:42:57 <oerjan> stay away from Oleg, i fear some kind of chain reaction...
07:45:05 <ehird> i'm interested now :)
07:45:23 <ehird> i'm not passive-aggressive, I'm just a dick
07:45:58 <ehird> do you know why he reverted those changes (one of them yours), btw?
07:46:02 <ehird> i mean, no edit summary
07:46:22 <ehird> <ehird> Hey, r.e.s. is wiking again.
07:46:22 <ehird> <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BitBitJump&diff=next&oldid=15588
07:46:22 <ehird> <ehird> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BitBitJump&diff=next&oldid=15696
07:46:22 <ehird> <ehird> seems Oleg has an attitude problem.
07:51:57 <oerjan> well it's caught up in that whole discussion
07:55:49 <oerjan> it could be made infinite (see my first couple talk page comments) but it would be incompatible with the finite size versions
07:56:27 <ehird> lifthrasiir: see current page.
07:56:42 <oerjan> basically without that assembler stuff you cannot possibly make bitsize-insensitive programs
07:56:46 <lifthrasiir> ooh, then it certainly cannot be TC. he seems not understand the concepts...
07:56:57 <oerjan> well not obviously anyway
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08:56:57 <ehird> haven't seen your name around here before
08:57:45 <ehird> presumably for the programming languages and not the magick, considering your channels
08:58:00 <ehird> (the latter of which, contrary to popular opinion, we do not engage in. most of the time.)
08:58:56 <fadeout> well, new to ubuntu linux, not so new to irc, though its been a long time since ive been on
08:59:13 <fadeout> the ubuntu channel got me on here, now im bored and looking for interesting channels
08:59:31 <ehird> heh, how did the ubuntu channel get you here?
09:00:16 <ehird> huh? where do they mention us?
09:00:38 <fadeout> oh, that channel didnt get me to esoteric
09:01:22 <fadeout> i got to this channel via browsing the channel list (which isnt too extensive on this server) and "esoteric" caught my attn. even at this hour most channels are quit
09:01:33 <ehird> we are fine purveyors, yada yada yada, of esoteric programming languages http://esolangs.org/
09:01:35 <ehird> well, some of the time.
09:01:43 <ehird> technically this channel is about everything BUT esolangs.
09:02:11 <ehird> Freenode is a technology server, after all.
09:02:29 <ehird> anyway, ubuntu is good. hi.
09:03:19 <fadeout> esoteric programming, thats a new one for me
09:03:28 <ehird> ever heard of Brainfuck?
09:03:29 <fadeout> though i know esoteric and programming
09:03:45 <ehird> INTERCAL? Unlambda?
09:04:17 <ehird> mwahaha, a virgin. sacrifice ten goats.
09:04:49 <ehird> anyway, the topic (said by a bot) is a pretty good summation of what we aim for in a language. if it's useful, it's probably bad, and if it's weird, it's good. but preferably novel.
09:05:23 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck might help.
09:05:32 <ehird> (being the most popular esolang)
09:07:09 <AnMaster> sigh... no scrollback due to forgetting to quit my irc client at home before going to university today
09:07:16 <ehird> AnMaster: just read the logs.
09:07:30 <AnMaster> ehird, guess what I'm doing? :P
09:07:37 <fadeout> ive just been in conversation with peeps the last few days about career evaluation and how i should have gotten into programming in the first place. What you just said about the summation is right up my alley
09:07:58 <ehird> alas there are no companies yet dedicated to esolangs
09:08:11 <ehird> well fizzie ostensibly got a job based on Befunge, if you stretch reality a lot
09:08:39 <AnMaster> <ehird> well fizzie ostensibly got a job based on Befunge, if you stretch reality a lot <-- huh? I must have missed that
09:09:08 <ehird> the interviewer asked about "Befunge" being listed on his resume and was semi-interested.
09:09:11 <fizzie> ehird: It's just a matter of perspective. If I choose to believe the Befunge-related conversation during the job interview was what got me hired, who's going to say no.
09:09:19 <ehird> ==> Befunge = fizzie job!
09:09:31 <AnMaster> fizzie, well you work at an university, so plausible!
09:09:37 <fizzie> AnMaster: Oh, it wasn't this job.
09:09:44 <fizzie> AnMaster: The Befunge job was actually at Nokia.
09:10:06 <ehird> I could go for a mobile with Befunge built in.
09:10:18 <fizzie> "They have so many legacy Befunge systems there, they wanted someone who speaks the language."
09:10:40 <AnMaster> ehird, is that supposed to make sense?
09:11:06 <AnMaster> ehird, well, I can read it pretty fast and I can tell those doesn't make a lot of sense
09:11:15 <ehird> Yeah, I can't actually code in Befunge.
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09:12:34 <ehird> I wonder where that animation comes from.
09:12:35 * Rugxulo learned some stuff about mmap() despite being *nix-ignorant
09:12:57 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, mmap is quite wonderful IMO
09:13:06 <ehird> Uh, a Compiz thing with the OSD notifications used to fade I think. Maybe.
09:13:10 <Rugxulo> well ... I hear that not all *nixes support it
09:13:18 <ehird> Rugxulo: yes it is...
09:13:22 <ehird> mmap is pretty much universal
09:13:24 <Rugxulo> also, some *nixes have buggy implementations
09:13:28 <ehird> I have never seen a nix without mmap
09:13:31 <Rugxulo> (that's what I read, anyways)
09:13:36 <ehird> even crufty legacy implementations
09:13:42 <ehird> Rugxulo: sounds like you're reading FUD :)
09:13:54 <Rugxulo> no, just quoting CWS (of CWSDPMI fame)
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09:13:56 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, it is optional in POSIX.1-2001 but required in POSIX.1-2008
09:14:28 <Rugxulo> anyways, DPMI 1.0 is said to be able to support it, but since that was (is) somewhat rare, nobody bothered
09:14:29 <ehird> Rugxulo: a win/dos person is unlikely to be unbiased about nix stuff
09:14:35 <Rugxulo> even though DPMIONE is freeware now
09:14:38 <AnMaster> but yeah, only DS9K type of *nix tends to lack it
09:14:59 <ehird> someone ought to actually make a DS9K, it doesn't exist
09:15:04 <ehird> just some aspects of some systems
09:15:06 <ehird> not a total system
09:15:07 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, what is DPMI supposed to be?
09:15:27 <ehird> is about as complete as cygwin.
09:16:09 <Rugxulo> DPMI is the DOS-based interface for pmode / selectors / safe API for extended memory etc. (Win16, Win32, OS/2, DOSEMU, CWSDPMI, QDPMI, etc)
09:16:25 <AnMaster> oh right that. But what has it got to do with *nix...
09:16:36 <Rugxulo> mmap() could be supported in DOS/DJGPP via DPMI 1.0
09:16:53 <Rugxulo> but that was too rare (only 386Max) "back in the day", so they never bothered
09:17:01 <Rugxulo> (DPMIONE is basically a freeware 386Max)
09:17:31 <AnMaster> I can't imagine anyone caring these days
09:18:27 <AnMaster> you should go use OS/2 too while you are at it!
09:20:30 * Rugxulo wonders if Cfunge will require AVX soon :-P
09:21:10 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, hm? It doesn't require any CPU specific features. It can optionally make use of SSE2, but apart from that it is up to the compiler
09:21:42 <AnMaster> plus my desktop support up to SSE3, my laptop a bit more, but none with AVX
09:21:51 <ehird> AVX isn't even out yet.
09:22:08 <AnMaster> ehird, right, it isn't as if I keep track of that
09:22:22 <ehird> Rugxulo: i was talking to AnMaster
09:22:23 <AnMaster> iirc boch (sp?) implements AVX though
09:23:59 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, I even tested cfunge on PPC and SPARC (not recently though, only had access to those temporarily)
09:24:47 <Rugxulo> with Mac OS X dropping PPC support, that's unlikely to get more popular
09:25:10 * Rugxulo recently had very brief access to PPC laptop but it was old (Panther) and had no XCode installed yet
09:25:20 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, and? cfunge has pure C fallbacks for all cpu specific optimised parts.
09:25:46 <AnMaster> also the ppc I have at home is an first model ibook with dead battery and glitchy power connector
09:26:24 <AnMaster> anyway I could put a linux system on nfs and boot that using a cd for loading it
09:26:34 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, OS 9 isn't even close to POSIX
09:27:16 <AnMaster> anyway I booted linux cd on it, shouldn't be impossible to boot a cd and mount root over nfs
09:27:40 <Rugxulo> naive question, but why did you use mmap in the first place? speed?
09:27:42 <AnMaster> macs are supposed to support some other boot over network way, but not PXE iirc
09:27:54 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, ease of implementation actually
09:28:08 <AnMaster> with read() I had to handle \r\n across a read border
09:28:27 <AnMaster> with mmap I don't have to bother about that
09:29:01 <ehird> os 9 is the worst operating system ever
09:29:16 <ehird> AnMaster: system 7 was wonderful
09:29:23 <ehird> minimal, fast, usable
09:29:40 <ehird> win 3.1 is limited but not annoying
09:29:50 <ehird> it ran fine on the hardware of the time
09:30:04 <AnMaster> ehird, OS 9 ran fine on my ibook though
09:30:08 <ehird> yes, win 3.1 sucked
09:30:15 <ehird> but it sucked in a decent way
09:30:33 <ehird> it has a purpose and it fulfils it, it just isn't very ambitious and is a bit too minimal
09:30:39 <Rugxulo> well, okay, it wasn't the worst ever, but it was fairly unstable and most apps were just either too ambitious, buggy, etc.
09:30:44 <ehird> it isn't very much fun to program for, and it's quite unstable
09:30:54 <ehird> but in day-to-day usage it works fine for the time
09:31:04 <ehird> so yeah, OS 9 is worse than all of those
09:31:09 <ehird> AnMaster: "for the time"
09:31:29 <ehird> well, OS 8 was just a revision of System 7 making it more unstable and buggy, but not enough to kill it
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09:31:42 <ehird> OS 8.5, the major release, was just the prelude to the ultimate suckiness of OS 9
09:32:06 <ehird> OS 9 would be half annoying if it wasn't so colossally slow
09:32:12 <AnMaster> ehird, what about system 6 then=
09:32:28 <ehird> system 6 was, uhh, typical black-on-white mac system
09:32:43 <AnMaster> ehird, also os 9 wasn't slow on that 300 MHz ibook. Maybe you used it on very old hardware?
09:32:47 <ehird> no real hope programming on it or anything, but it's great at word processing and editing images I guess?
09:32:52 <ehird> you know, desktop publishing, the original point of the mac
09:33:25 <ehird> AnMaster: It had a G3 expansion card, something like 90MiB of RAM (a bit meagre, but come on! I was browsing the filesystem and it was slow) and a 1GB Quantum Fireball disk
09:33:45 <ehird> it'd be more understandable without the G3, but it has the G3
09:33:59 <AnMaster> ehird, it was fine on 64 MB ram, 300 MHz G3. The 3.2 GB harddrive was a bit small though
09:34:06 <ehird> really slow for me.
09:34:13 <AnMaster> also upgrade boards aren't really that good
09:34:28 <ehird> yes, but the G3 was a major improvement over the predecessors.
09:34:31 <AnMaster> I mean, stuff like IO buses and such
09:34:35 <ehird> 90MiB is enough to run the kernel and Finder
09:34:43 <ehird> I mean, it was slow expanding small directories
09:34:49 <ehird> That isn't the slow you get from being bottlenecked by an IO bus
09:35:50 <AnMaster> if you called OS 9 unstable I would however agree
09:36:07 <AnMaster> of course, it could be any app that crashed it
09:36:08 <ehird> well, Finder may have been *acceptable*
09:36:11 <ehird> but try web browsing
09:36:31 <ehird> it worked perfectly, except for being CRIPPLINGLY SLOW in both UI and rendering (I mean like upwards of a minute to render a google page) in every browser I tried
09:36:46 <fizzie> Try web browsing with the Performa, where moving the mouse around makes download speeds drop dramatically.
09:36:53 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but also sharware iirc
09:37:04 <ehird> AnMaster: I don't care, everything on Mac OS was shareware
09:37:08 <ehird> Even Stuffit Expander
09:37:37 <AnMaster> ehird, shareware that refused to work at all one month after release date or something like that
09:37:43 <AnMaster> so you had to download the last version
09:39:01 <AnMaster> fizzie, I think on the ibook download speed dropped when you had the mouse button down. but not when just moving it
09:39:23 <AnMaster> not that it was able to max my connection even over ethernet
09:39:40 <AnMaster> ehird, cooperative multitasking too
09:39:43 <fizzie> Oh, I got pretty much modem speeds over the Ethernet. :p
09:39:43 <ehird> 1MB internet, or crazy Swedish >10MB net speeds?
09:39:48 <ehird> 1MB Ethernet, or crazy Swedish >10MB net speeds?
09:40:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, more like 80 kbps, while I can get 720-780 kbps on my desktop
09:40:31 <AnMaster> local over lan I don't remember
09:40:51 <AnMaster> ehird, unknown which the mac used. But on desktop yes
09:41:24 <ehird> No. The term is kibibytes.
09:41:33 <AnMaster> ehird, and I don't care what you think about that
09:41:49 <AnMaster> ehird, as you are mixing up bits and bytes anyway
09:42:14 <ehird> A "kilobit" would be 1000 bits.
09:42:19 <ehird> That is how the terminology works.
09:42:31 <fizzie> The Ethernet speeds are non-binary millions, though; I really think using the powers-of-10 prefixes in "Xbps" makes sense, since that's what they use there.
09:42:33 <AnMaster> ehird, and I don't care what your opinion on this is
09:42:35 <ehird> Furthermore, "kibibyte" is the official standard; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibibyte.
09:42:49 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilobit notes no standardisation.
09:43:04 <ehird> Therefore "kilobit" is not only illogical (would seem to mean 1000 bits), it's non-standard.
09:43:26 <fizzie> ehird: Don't you start with "official standard" when you use a nonstandard "kiB" instead of the standard "KiB". :p
09:43:32 <ehird> fizzie: I am considering that.
09:43:59 <ehird> AnMaster: why would you call it my opinion, anyway? I never called it my opinion.
09:44:00 <fizzie> Logic vs. standard: the battle.
09:44:14 <ehird> I called it wrong and provided two reasons for it being so.
09:44:26 <AnMaster> anyway, point is my old mac was able to max out my slow 512 kilobit per second ADSL, but not my current 8 megabit per second
09:44:42 <AnMaster> and I have no clue if that is 1000 or 1024
09:44:53 <AnMaster> but in general I use kilo for 1024 myself
09:44:55 <fizzie> "the decimal definition (1 kilobit per second = 1,000 bits per second) is used uniformly in the context of telecommunication transmission speeds"
09:45:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, right. anything to annoy ehird though
09:45:47 <ehird> I find people committing suicide by bludgeoning their head against a wall repeatedly very annoying.
09:46:09 <fizzie> AnMaster: Then you're going to have to start talking about your 500 kbps and 7.8125 Mbps ADSL links.
09:46:44 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is theoretical speed. What I actually talk about is the speed that wget reports for good mirrors
09:46:56 <ehird> Stop bringing logic into this. Also standardisation. AnMaster won't use any of those pesky things.
09:47:00 <AnMaster> which is currently around 760 KB/s at best
09:47:14 <fizzie> Anyway, with the Performa the bus multiplexing thing was more of a problem; c.f. the http://lowendmac.com/roadapples/x200.shtml numbered list, point 3.
09:47:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I know about that *shudder*
09:47:53 <fizzie> The Ethernet card I had was in the comm slot, I think.
09:48:07 <AnMaster> ah ibook had of course built in ethernet
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09:48:16 <fizzie> "A comm slot modem disables the modem port; a comm slot ethernet card disables the printer port."
09:48:25 <fizzie> Really, that thing is so messed-up.
09:48:39 <AnMaster> didn't remember it was quite that bad
09:48:56 <fizzie> Yet I still can't not like it.
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09:49:56 <fizzie> It's somehow so endearing. Poor little Performa.
09:54:43 <AnMaster> fizzie, the modem port... was it one of those softmodems?
09:54:55 <AnMaster> forgot the name... geosomething
09:55:36 <fizzie> No, I sold it. And it wasn't a geoport; I think the "modem port" is referring to the serial port it had, which was a very old-fashioned no-hardware-handshaking no-frills rs232 thing.
09:55:48 <fizzie> Could be wrong, though.
09:55:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, but with a round shape right?
09:56:20 <AnMaster> I remember a performa that had a serial port but with a round connector
09:56:27 <AnMaster> rather than the usual PC serial port connector
09:57:00 <fizzie> Yes. The pins are compatible to the rs232 standard, I think, it's just the connector that's different.
09:58:12 <fizzie> http://static.arstechnica.com/watson-karmic-20090909-3.png makes one want to get a SSD; it shows a Ubuntu Karmic Koala alpha version booting in five seconds on such a system.
09:58:53 <AnMaster> bbl, need to relocate myself, so will probably lose connection to bouncer and thus anything said since then. Due to forgetting to quit client at home before I left.
09:58:54 <ehird> SSDs are like awesome. For your computer.
09:59:15 <ehird> Also, that's some serious multitasking.
09:59:35 <ehird> fizzie: the goal for 10.04 is a 10-second boot, iirc, so that must come to like 3 seconds on an SSD...
09:59:59 <fizzie> It's that "upstart" parallelisizer thing, they claim Karmic's going to start using it really-for-real-now.
10:00:13 <AnMaster> wait, that pic shows xulrunner during book? Huh
10:00:28 <ehird> That's starting Firefox, I think.
10:00:33 <ehird> Or at least some browsery thing.
10:00:38 <ehird> Looks like we're also getting couchdb.
10:00:52 <ehird> Oh, couchdb might be for Firefox.
10:00:58 <ehird> XULRunner might be for couchdb.
10:01:09 <ehird> CouchDB is written in Erlang.
10:01:14 <fizzie> Xorg starts there somewhere around 2-3 seconds.
10:01:37 <ehird> 9.10 will be great, but I think that 10.04 will see a lot of big changes...
10:01:58 <ehird> Then 10.10 will come to polish them off. So I think the alliterative release will be when Ubuntu notches up the awesome a whole bunch.
10:02:37 <ehird> We won't have one of those again until 2104.
10:02:45 <ehird> Well, assuming they don't change the schedule before then. :P
10:02:56 <ehird> Say, I wonder why 6.06 wasn't in the 4/10 pattern.
10:03:08 <ehird> Ah. Behind schedule.
10:03:16 <fizzie> This is just a guess, but they just might change it at some point during the next hundred years.
10:03:39 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Ubuntu-desktop-2-410-20080706.png
10:03:44 <ehird> 4.10 sure was brown.
10:04:11 <ehird> The Karmic announcement mentioned considering a total new look and that "brown has served us well".
10:04:20 <ehird> Well, that's obviously not happening, but I wonder if 10.04 might bring that.
10:04:26 <ehird> I wonder what they've thought of. Please let it not be a dark theme.
10:05:03 <fizzie> I'm not surprised that they've went a bit orange from that... what should I call it, "turd-brown" maybe.
10:05:19 <ehird> My turds are... not that colour.
10:05:44 <ehird> But yes, it is a bit orangey.
10:05:57 <fizzie> Unicorn turds look like rainbows.
10:06:18 <ehird> Actually, I hope they go for a unified titlebar/toolbar look.
10:06:28 <ehird> I kinda miss that from OS X, though it's pretty hard to do in GTK.
10:06:48 <ehird> The Unity theme for Metacity and GTK handles it by making the window title the same colour as the whole window, which kinda sucks.
10:07:03 <ehird> Mainly I just wish they'd antialiase the window corners.
10:10:04 <AnMaster> 02:01:58 <ehird> Then 10.10 will come to polish them off. So I think the alliterative release will be when Ubuntu notches up the awesome a whole bunch.
10:10:15 <AnMaster> you mean like all release so far?
10:11:12 <fizzie> "Replacement of Synaptic and other package management-related applications by Ubuntu Software Store is intended to take place in [Lucid Lynx]."
10:11:52 <ehird> Also, what about it?
10:11:58 <ehird> AnMaster: also, what do you mean about release/name?
10:12:03 <ehird> It's 10, 10. Alliterative.
10:12:34 <AnMaster> ehird, "hardy h<whatever>" kind of stuff
10:13:08 <ehird> There was no 4.04, so this'll be the first alliterative release.
10:13:31 <ehird> fizzie: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareStore
10:13:32 <fizzie> Synaptic is pretty awful, yes; and the fact that there's N graphical package-related things (Synaptic, that add/remove thing, the update manager thing, ...) is quite sucky too. I don't mind a little sensiblization.
10:13:37 <ehird> Includes mockups and stuff.
10:13:49 <ehird> Add/Remove is for installing and removing applications, Synaptic is for managing packages.
10:13:56 <ehird> So there's a semi-sensible divide there.
10:14:02 <AnMaster> ehird, isn't the jaunty jackelope or whatever it was called also alliterative?
10:14:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, all release names are.
10:14:19 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, I thought you were referring to that
10:14:21 <ehird> I hope this new Store stuff is all based on PackageKit, which is yummy.
10:14:22 <fizzie> The name sounds very modern, all mobile things have an "App Store" nowadays, so why not Ubuntu too.
10:15:30 <ehird> I'm not sure Store is the best word; I'd expect more a for-pay Canonical-partners thing, which would be lame.
10:15:50 <ehird> I'm sure the meaning was store as in storage-place, or store ala stall, but still.
10:16:01 <ehird> It's definitely confusing..
10:16:31 <AnMaster> sv:stall is en:stable, so I first read that as "package stable"
10:16:43 <ehird> The implication is, like, a tiny little store, one-man sort of thing.
10:16:53 <ehird> Hey, my Ubuntu just went "war".
10:17:04 <ehird> Like, light pitch.
10:17:05 <AnMaster> well en:stall is a technical flight term for "not going fast enough to keep flying"
10:17:32 <AnMaster> ehird, your harddrive breaking down maybe
10:17:41 <ehird> No, it's from Ubuntu.
10:17:47 * ehird plays the Sounds to see which it was.
10:17:53 <AnMaster> ehird, so it goes away if you turn off sounds?
10:18:08 <ehird> Not in there. Oh well, it only did it twice.
10:18:18 <ehird> "This is a living specification for the utility previously codenamed AppCenter."
10:18:22 <ehird> What a terrible rename.
10:18:26 <fizzie> Well, the SoftwareStore wiki page has renamed categories into "Departments", such as you would find from a physical store; I guess they're driving for that sort of metaphor. Except you only shoplift and never pay. (Well, the word "shoplift" surprisingly isn't mentioned there.)
10:18:30 <ehird> I'd rename it to Application Centre.
10:18:38 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
10:18:42 <ehird> Created: 2005-08-29 by MatthewPaulThomas"
10:18:54 <ehird> fizzie: Copying ain't stealing!
10:19:04 <ehird> Overly metaphoric fail.
10:19:17 <ehird> [[In application menus etc, the Store should appear as Ubuntu Software Store.]]
10:19:22 <ehird> Why put "Ubuntu" there?
10:19:24 <ehird> We know it's Ubuntu.
10:19:27 <AnMaster> "get free software" and "store"
10:19:39 <fizzie> There was a wonderful pamphlet given out in a hotel in Tallinn; the title was "Estonian police gives advice on pocket-picking".
10:19:58 <ehird> I sure hope Matthew Paul Thomas didn't write this whole thing as-is without it being mangled; his usability work is spot-on and he's done some great stuff for Canonical, but this is just terrible.
10:20:03 <fizzie> Then there were illustrated techniques and best places and so on for pocket-picking.
10:20:31 <AnMaster> ehird, notice start menu on a windows pc? Says "microsoft word" "microsoft visual studio" and so on
10:20:34 <ehird> One day, the kernel will merge with KDE.
10:20:40 <AnMaster> so why not "ubuntu" there on ubuntu
10:20:44 <ehird> Finally, kthreadd and kwrite can live together in happiness!
10:20:56 <AnMaster> the analogy has some flaws yes
10:21:04 <ehird> Anyway, the Software Store seems like an improvement in all areas but terminology.
10:21:14 <ehird> Where it's a massive regression.
10:21:33 <ehird> What's your point?
10:22:33 <AnMaster> that there is always apt-get around. for those who know how to use command line it is superior most of the time
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10:23:49 <ehird> AnMaster: I disagree strongly.
10:24:24 <ehird> apt-get install does not integrate discovering new programs with installing them afterwards, it does not give me helpful descriptions of packages laid out in a way tailored for quick comprehension, ...
10:24:32 <ehird> It simply has no advantages.
10:29:06 <ehird> Wow, AnMaster agrees with me on the topic of usability.
10:29:11 <ehird> Now *that* IS unprecedented.
10:29:13 <AnMaster> for when you know what you need however it is superior
10:29:28 <AnMaster> lets say you are running configure and it complains about missing libfoo headers
10:29:38 <ehird> Yes, if you are in a terminal, obviously it is superior.
10:29:41 <AnMaster> then sudo apt-get install libfoo<tab> works
10:30:05 <AnMaster> sometimes it is just -dev at the end, sometimes it is versioned like libfoo-1 and libfoo-2
10:30:22 <AnMaster> in a few cases it is something like foo-dev instead
10:30:36 <ehird> But outside of a terminal, "sudo apt-get install foopackage<ENTER>y<ENTER>" vs "foopackage<mouse><check><mouse><apply>" are pretty much equal.
10:30:42 <AnMaster> ehird, and I almost always have a terminal open
10:30:47 <ehird> And the graphical one probably has a nicer progress bar.
10:30:53 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, but if you don't know the exact name...
10:31:12 <ehird> When running shell commands, apt-get wins. When you just want to install something you read about, or when you want to find a program, graphical wins.
10:31:22 <AnMaster> ehird, true, but you would need to search in your GUI package manager too
10:31:23 <ehird> Not with Synaptic, though, since that's just a bag of hurt.
10:31:38 <ehird> AnMaster: Yeah, but the results are actually readable, as opposed to apt-cache search/apt-cache show.
10:31:44 <ehird> (And apt-cache's search doesn't even work well at all...)
10:31:51 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, that would need a better CLI frontend
10:32:19 <ehird> It's kind of hard to do things like make the package descriptions on a new line and more subtle when you can't change the font size.
10:32:20 <AnMaster> I'm considering coding a simple wrapper script to format and colourise the output. Output would end up similar to eix output
10:32:49 <ehird> Like in a terminal.
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10:32:53 <ehird> Also kinda hard to bring up the extended description of a package in the middle of a scrollthrough if you have no clicking or anything.
10:33:08 <AnMaster> anyway, search would be regex based, again similar to eix.
10:33:22 <AnMaster> where you can search on any metadata that exists
10:33:34 <ehird> Who searches with regex? I mostly do things like "wine dev" and "libfoo*".
10:33:41 <ehird> The former is a pain with regex, the latter is slightly more verbose with regex.
10:33:45 <ehird> I've never really used anything more.
10:33:46 <AnMaster> ehird, I search with regex a lot
10:34:11 <AnMaster> and you can do fuzzy match search and what not too with eix
10:34:22 <ehird> Example regex-requiring search?
10:35:14 <ehird> Barely any false positives.
10:35:18 <AnMaster> ehird, would match foo-modebar too
10:35:25 <ehird> Yeah, but how common is that?
10:35:32 <ehird> Anyway, do "wine dev" as a regex.
10:35:41 <ehird> It matches foowinebardev, devwine, winedev, wine--dev, ...
10:36:05 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway wildcard is about as hard as regex to write but you have to remember to exclude the . in front of * as well
10:36:22 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know what you want to match with wine dev?
10:36:25 <ehird> Uh, only if you've been bludgeoned with a Koala and think of regex every second of the day.
10:36:29 <AnMaster> and as I said, eix provides other searches too
10:36:33 <ehird> AnMaster: Wine and dev in any position, order and amount.
10:36:39 <ehird> Good luck, it'll be verbose as fuck.
10:38:14 <ehird> Great, your wonderful regex searches can't do the most basic of operations related to FINDING A PACKAGE.
10:38:16 <AnMaster> see above, eix supports more than regex. Just regex is default.
10:38:27 <ehird> Yes, but you're touting regex search as amazingly awesome.
10:38:47 <AnMaster> ehird, and they are, of course for some type of searching other variants will be better
10:38:54 <ehird> Yes, like the most common type.
10:39:17 <ehird> Your "searches" depend on almost exactly knowing what kind of damn package you want.
10:39:22 <ehird> I want the WINE development stuff.
10:39:31 <AnMaster> most of the time I'm looking for some specific package name
10:39:34 <ehird> "wine dev". What else am I to type, what expression is more natural, obvious or quicker?
10:39:40 <ehird> AnMaster: Then you're not "searching".
10:40:03 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, I'm searching for what exactly the package is. gtk or libgtk?
10:40:12 <AnMaster> or even likgtk++ or libgtk-2.0
10:40:47 <AnMaster> and here the current search facility on ubuntu are kind of crap in the GUI tool
10:41:04 <AnMaster> they tend to give lots of unrelated gtk stuff, where gtk is in description
10:41:13 <AnMaster> and the one I want is far below
10:42:14 <AnMaster> while looking for ^libgtk and if that fails gtk in _package name only_ still may find some unrelated packages, but far fewer
10:43:22 <AnMaster> apt-cache search --names-only ^libgtk
10:43:54 <AnMaster> (on gentoo it is actually named gtk++ iirc)
10:44:02 <AnMaster> (still, fairly reasonable second guess)
10:44:28 <ehird> gtk++? It's not gtk++.
10:45:04 <ehird> Hey, it looks like the T60p has the same graphics card as this machine, the X1600, except BIOS-modded for CAD/3D pro apps sort of thing.
10:45:13 <ehird> Downside: drivers.
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10:45:30 <AnMaster> ehird, stop pressing whatever key combo you used there
10:45:44 <AnMaster> ehird, why would you end up pressing that
10:46:00 <ehird> to close a tab that i failed to alt-tab to because of light prsesing
10:46:35 <ehird> alt-tab to firefox, ctrl-w to close.
10:47:05 <fizzie> In this particular case "apt-cache search ^libgtk" is likely to find only what you want; there aren't that many packages whose descriptions would start with "libgtk".
10:47:26 <ehird> http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/10908.jpg
10:47:34 <ehird> That windows key there sure is small.
10:47:35 <AnMaster> ehird, if you use znc you can set a channel to sticky to make it auto rejoin your client on part and never forward the part to the server
10:47:51 <ehird> The downside of adding a windows key...
10:48:08 <ehird> I wonder what the FlexView screen on the 15" is; IPS?
10:48:17 <fizzie> This channel is inherently sticky, hurr hurr.
10:48:30 <ehird> AnMaster: why? I like to be able to part easily
10:48:38 <ehird> Yep, Flexview is IPS.
10:48:46 <ehird> My notebook could have an IPS screen!
10:49:03 <AnMaster> ehird, oh btw I keep pressing Fn instead of ctrl on the notebook
10:50:23 <ehird> The left one, then.
10:50:29 <ehird> And use the right one. Oh, there is none.
10:51:25 <AnMaster> but that is next to arrow keys
10:52:35 <AnMaster> ehird, space, altgr, menu, ctrl, arrow keys
10:53:01 <ehird> pry left fn key off so no typos, use right :P
10:53:44 <ehird> AnMaster: 15" 1600x1200 IPS laptop screen y/n
10:53:55 <AnMaster> anyway fn can't really be remapped, it is "special" in BIOS or something, stuff like Fn-PgUp doesn't ever reach the OS. And it works even before OS is booted
10:54:11 <AnMaster> some Fn combos reach the OS though
10:55:08 <ehird> Heh, 1600x1200 is actually more pixels than I have now.
10:55:24 <ehird> Giving up 80 pixels horizontally for 150 pixels vertically? Sign me up.
10:55:26 <ehird> Anyway, I said y/n.
10:56:22 <ehird> To install it, please run:
10:56:26 <ehird> sudo yum install yay
10:56:58 <ehird> I promise I'm over 18
10:57:48 <ehird> I promise I'm under 20
10:57:53 <fizzie> Someone's mangled that message here to say "ask your administrator". (Or at least I've seen the sudo variant earlier.)
10:57:54 <fizzie> The program 'mc' is currently not installed. To run 'mc' please ask your administrator to install the package 'mc'
10:58:08 <ehird> In Debian or Ubuntu?
10:58:16 <ehird> Systems going for halt...
10:58:19 <ehird> Killing all processes...
10:58:20 <AnMaster> # wait, god wouldn't need to su
10:58:23 <ehird> Killing pesky processes...
10:58:31 <ehird> **UPS FATAL INTERRUPTION**
10:58:42 <ehird> coreboot version FreeAsInRMS
10:58:55 <ehird> root login: autologin
10:59:35 <ehird> # I'm not planning on anyone hacking my brain
10:59:52 <ehird> # It's sort of nice to wake up after being unconscious
11:00:07 <ehird> rootfs / rootfs rw 0 0
11:00:22 <AnMaster> # ok that is fail, /proc claims not to be mounted itself
11:00:35 <ehird> # It's a magical rootfs.
11:00:40 <fizzie> Oh, it's the default message, it just checks sudoers.
11:00:42 <fizzie> if posix.geteuid() == 0:
11:00:42 <fizzie> print >>sys.stderr, _("You can install it by typing:")
11:00:42 <fizzie> print >>sys.stderr, "apt-get install %s" % packages[0][0]
11:00:42 <fizzie> elif self.user_can_sudo:
11:00:44 <fizzie> print >>sys.stderr, _("You can install it by typing:")
11:00:44 <fizzie> print >>sys.stderr, "sudo apt-get install %s" % packages[0][0]
11:00:47 <fizzie> print >>sys.stderr, _("To run '%(command)s' please ask your administrator to install the package '%(package)s'") % {'command': command, 'package': packages[0][0]}
11:00:49 <ehird> # Uniponies indeed.
11:01:01 <ehird> # It's Linux 2.7, circa 2175.
11:09:27 <ehird> Hmm, 1600x1200 @ 15" is 133 PPI, which is rather worryingly dense.
11:12:30 <fizzie> There's a "dense" joke begging to be made there.
11:13:59 <AnMaster> ehird, why the term ppi rather than dpi?
11:15:41 <fizzie> "Pixels" is more descriptive than "dots", though.
11:16:54 <fizzie> DPI has some vague print-related connotations.
11:17:01 <fizzie> Dots on a paper and all.
11:18:54 <fizzie> OpenMoko screen is 282 PPI, that's pretty intdense. (Intensely dense, you grok?)
11:20:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, oh read it as "points" not "pixels"
11:21:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, as opposed to floatdense?
11:22:24 <fizzie> Yes, that would be too dense.
11:23:21 <AnMaster> fizzie, signed or unsigned denseness?
11:24:13 <fizzie> I'm not sure how to interpret a negative pixel density value.
11:25:37 <AnMaster> I wonder if unicode as special symbols for the outlined R. As in R meaning real numbers
11:25:47 <AnMaster> I wouldn't be surprised if it had
11:26:42 <fizzie> Yes. Well, not with the +.
11:27:17 <fizzie> But at least ℕ, ℙ, ℚ, ℝ and ℤ.
11:28:01 <fizzie> There's also similarly double-struck pi and gamma (both small and capital), and double-struck italic D, d, e, i, j.
11:28:43 <fizzie> There's a subscript and superscript +.
11:28:56 <AnMaster> oh nice. Looks like a blur at this size though
11:29:05 <AnMaster> unless I'm really close to display
11:30:09 <fizzie> There's also a double-struck H, ℍ.
11:31:56 <fizzie> Quaternions, at least.
11:33:15 <fizzie> Not quite sure what ℙ would commonly be used for; the others (ℕ, ℤ, ℚ, ℝ and ℂ) are those well-known sets.
11:33:46 <AnMaster> fizzie, yes I know of them of course
11:34:31 <fizzie> Deewiant: e is often the Neper e, and i, j both are used for the imaginary unit.
11:34:44 <fizzie> And D, d for differential.
11:34:47 <Deewiant> Yes, of course, but double-struck?
11:34:56 <fizzie> Yes, double-struck and italic.
11:35:11 <fizzie> AnMaster: Electric engineers seem to have a habit for using j.
11:35:32 <Deewiant> I've never seen those double-struck, but if you say so.
11:35:36 <AnMaster> fizzie, any reason except to cause confusion?
11:36:03 <fizzie> Deewiant: I think Mathematica uses the double-struck e.
11:36:19 <Deewiant> Yes, Mathematica uses them, but I always just thought it was on crack. :-P
11:36:45 <fizzie> Yes, well, I haven't seen them anywhere else either. :p
11:37:13 <Deewiant> AnMaster: It's to avoid confusion with i(t), electrical current.
11:37:22 <fizzie> Yes, what Deewiant said.
11:37:37 <Deewiant> Although why they can't write I(t) is beyond me.
11:37:55 <AnMaster> Deewiant, could be confused with 1?
11:38:19 <fizzie> And I use 'j' in MATLAB because I like 'i' as a loop variable.
11:38:20 <Deewiant> Maybe, though I think that's lame. :-P
11:38:24 <AnMaster> for example, until I learned about abs(), the 1 I wrote were just straight lines
11:39:05 <Deewiant> I've always written them with that serif at the top
11:39:59 <fizzie> Deewiant: There's that convention re the casedness.
11:40:13 <fizzie> "All of these symbols are expressed using capital letters, except in cases where a quantity (especially voltage or current) is described in terms of a brief period of time (called an "instantaneous" value). For example, the voltage of a battery, which is stable over a long period of time, will be symbolized with a capital letter "E," while the voltage peak of a lightning strike at the very instant it hits a power line would most likely be symbolized with a
11:40:13 <fizzie> lower-case letter "e" (or lower-case "v") to designate that value as being at a single moment in time. This same lower-case convention holds true for current as well, the lower-case letter "i" representing current at some instant in time. Most direct-current (DC) measurements, however, being stable over time, will be symbolized with capital letters. "
11:40:14 <Deewiant> I'd rather have something legible than fast
11:40:20 <AnMaster> bbl for a few hours. course begins soon
11:41:07 <Deewiant> I might abuse the differential syntax and call it dI(t), then.
11:41:28 <fizzie> That's the rate of change of I, though, not the instantaneous value of it.
11:41:42 <fizzie> Or at least that's what it'd look like.
11:42:45 <Deewiant> I dunno, in all seriousness I'd probably call it all I(t) by default regardless of whether it's a peak or not.
11:43:03 <fizzie> Yes, probably, but it's a bit too late now.
11:44:48 <fizzie> Oh, Python uses j too?
11:45:02 <fizzie> imagnumber ::= (floatnumber | intpart) ("j" | "J")
11:47:26 <fizzie> <complex.h> in C99 #defines 'I' for it.
11:49:18 <fizzie> More exactly, I expands either to _Imaginary_I or _Complex_I, depending on whether the first one is defined or not; it's optional, unlike _Complex_I. (Both are macros that expand to "a such-and-such constant expression".)
11:49:57 <fizzie> In my case "I" -> "_Complex_I" -> "(__extension__ 1.0iF)".
11:52:32 <fizzie> Oh, right, ℙ is "of course" the set of prime numbers.
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12:13:47 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird, why the term ppi rather than dpi?
12:16:02 <ehird> But yeah, 133 might be just a bit too much.
12:17:02 <ehird> I mean, I like my pixels, but with bitmaps and stuff being so common, something not too far to the-dpi-that-96-is-from-a-chair-looking-at-a-monitor-remapped-to-being-closer-due-to-being-a-notebook is best.
12:17:29 <ehird> "LinuxCon 2009 Linux creator Linus Torvalds says the open source kernel has become "bloated and huge," with no midriff-slimming diet plan in sight."
12:19:12 <fizzie> ""Okay, so the summary of this is that you expect that 12 per cent to be back to where it should be next year, and you expect someone else to come up with a plan to do it," joked Bottomley. "That's open source.""
12:21:11 <ehird> Man, the T60p seems like the bset notebook ever.
12:21:36 <ehird> Think I want me one of those. Looks like they were super-expensive when they came out, though; hope that's improved.
12:22:53 <ehird> Although there's still that pesky driver problem, it having essentially the same card as this machine.
12:23:31 <ehird> radeon/ati is so fucking ridiculously slow, new fglrx (the only version working with this X11 version) doesn't support it, and radeonhd doesn't even work
12:23:44 <ehird> Presumably because the X1600 isn't a Radeon HD
12:23:58 <ehird> Hmm, no; it's supposedly supported, but it doesn't work.
12:24:11 <ehird> The situation here is pretty awful so that's worrying.
12:29:15 <fizzie> Radeonhd has never worked for me; isn't it pretty experimental still.
12:29:50 <ehird> Yeah, but I tried it just because jeez radeon is crap.
12:30:05 <ehird> I'd be perfectly happy if fglrx hadn't fucking dropped support for this popular circa-2006 card.
12:35:04 <ehird> (There's also the issue of where the hell am I gonna get this...)
12:47:49 <ehird> I should probably learn Vala and hack on that GNOME IRC client.
12:48:01 <ehird> Or I could elaborate on the esoteric spreadsheet idea, which is easier.
12:52:00 <ehird> "Running Mobile Mark 2005, the T60p managed an impressive five hours 20 minutes of battery life, compared to three hours 41 minutes on the Acer. DVD playback was also good with a time of four hours 20 minutes - enough time to watch a Lord of the Rings special edition if you wished."
12:52:35 <ehird> so let's say +1.5hr ultrabay = 6h50m and 5h50m
12:54:09 <ehird> yikes. response time on the flexview is 30ms
13:30:38 <ehird> Hey, apparently after Lucid Lynx Ubuntu's switching to GNOME 3.
13:34:32 <ehird> "Have you become twisted hacks?" - El Reg commnt
13:41:13 <fizzie> I think I like the Mystic Meerkat 10.10 name suggestion.
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13:42:18 <ehird> fizzie: Umm, don't you read Linus flamebait and reddit comments? We know what 10.10 will be called
13:42:22 <ehird> Masturbating Monkey
13:44:04 <fizzie> "Image results for 'masturbating monkey'" -- in this particular instance, I'm not sure I appreciate Google's desire to be helpful.
13:44:22 <ehird> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/706950
13:45:09 <ehird> fizzie: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6s1p7/linus_called_openbsd_developers_what/
13:47:00 <fizzie> "You call your penis 'Verizon calculator?'"
13:48:31 <FireFly> http://etc.firefly.nu/css/quine.html <-- :D
13:48:43 <ehird> FireFly: beautiful
13:48:58 <ehird> http://browserbookapp.sourceforge.net/topaz/ ;; holy fuck! Someone has basically *exactly* the same ideas as me for computing.
13:52:35 <fizzie> http://www.coinflation.com/about.html -- "How would you use [the word coinflation] in a sentence? -- My wife uses the word in a sentence all the time, 'Quit working on your stupid coinflation website and let's go out for Chinese food.'"
13:58:25 <deschutron> I've come up with some Snusp-related stuff, and I'd like to put it online, and I'm not sure how to go about it
13:58:43 <deschutron> I've come up with about 5 extensions to the language
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13:59:08 <ehird> http://esolangs.org/wiki/
13:59:13 <ehird> make a new page, link to SNUSP, go wild
13:59:15 <deschutron> and a way to specify inside a snusp program what set of features to use
13:59:33 <ehird> seems like it'd be easier to have an interpreter switch
13:59:38 <deschutron> i was wondering whether to make a new page or add the the SNUSP one
14:00:22 <deschutron> some people might want lots of language features, others might want to restrict what the language can do
14:01:53 <deschutron> for example, you can have numeric literals, but some people might prefer to use plusses and loops to get their numbers because the instructions set is minimalistic that way
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14:55:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> I mean, I like my pixels, but with bitmaps and stuff being so common, something not too far to the-dpi-that-96-is-from-a-chair-looking-at-a-monitor-remapped-to-being-closer-due-to-being-a-notebook is best. <-- there are svg icon sets and such iirc
14:55:37 <ehird> yeah, but think about the web
14:55:44 <ehird> (Gnome uses SVG icons pretty much everywhere)
14:56:46 <AnMaster> ehird, ok that explains why they look so smooth
14:56:50 <ehird> I mean, 133 PPI is quite a lot.
14:56:54 <ehird> AnMaster: I think KDE 4 does too.
14:57:02 <ehird> But it was like that when they were pngs too, I think. Maybe.
14:57:09 <ehird> .svg icons are clearly The Right Thing, though.
14:57:20 <AnMaster> I really like the less smooth look of classical bitmap based icon sets
14:57:38 <AnMaster> more natural looking sometimes
14:57:55 <ehird> Pixel art looks cute at first, but I find that looking at such icons I just see the jagged edges and highly-contrasted borders and miss the icon.
14:58:15 <ehird> AnMaster: But fwiw, the Tango icon standards (which is obeyed pretty wildly Gnomeways) pretty much say "Don't make it shiny, stupid!".
14:58:23 <ehird> KDE 3 is really, terribly bad at that
14:58:29 <ehird> Everything shines and is cartoony
14:58:52 <AnMaster> <ehird> I should probably learn Vala and hack on that GNOME IRC client. <-- Vala?
14:59:17 <ehird> AnMaster: Vala is sort of like C#, made minimalist and cleaned up, and made to work with GObject.
14:59:21 <ehird> Basically, it's GObject the language.
14:59:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> yikes. response time on the flexview is 30ms <-- sounds high. What is this flexview?
14:59:43 <ehird> i.e., write native-code GNOME software without extra dependencies or a runtime, and free yourself from the awful GObject C calls.
14:59:55 <ehird> AnMaster: Flexview is the IPS (because it has a wide viewing angle).
15:00:08 <ehird> The newer ThinkPad displays are like 16ms and some older ones 25ms.
15:00:11 <ehird> So they're all quite slow.
15:00:22 <AnMaster> ehird, nothing you usually notice
15:01:00 <AnMaster> ehird, well, thinkpads aren't really for gamers I'd say
15:01:01 <ehird> 30ms is 33Hz, if I'm calculating that right.
15:01:27 <ehird> AnMaster: Doesn't matter what the target market is; the T60p has a decent graphics card, an excellent CPU and you can bash a load of RAM in there.
15:02:02 <ehird> Well, that's optional.
15:02:08 <ehird> AnMaster: The graphics card is the pro version, tuned for CAD etc.
15:02:22 <ehird> "Mobile workstation" (except it's thin, light and has good battery life)
15:02:26 <ehird> Anyway, with the Flexview I'm capped to 33fps, which is ridiculous.
15:02:27 <AnMaster> <ehird> Pixel art looks cute at first, but I find that looking at such icons I just see the jagged edges and highly-contrasted borders and miss the icon. <-- only if upscaled. After all svg will be rendered to such pixels too
15:02:39 <ehird> No, svg generally antialiases
15:02:48 <ehird> More recent ThinkPads can do 66fps, which is hunky dory.
15:02:51 <AnMaster> and nothing prevents antialias in pixel icons
15:02:58 <ehird> Slightly lesser-looking models can manage 40fps, which is fine.
15:03:06 <ehird> "I really like the less smooth look of classical bitmap based icon sets"
15:03:10 <ehird> I was responding to that
15:03:20 <AnMaster> ehird, latency doesn't come out as FPS does it?
15:03:25 <ehird> Anyway, I'm not sure I can accept 33fps, even if it should work quite well outside.
15:03:30 <AnMaster> I mean, latency could be high FPS, just delayed a bit
15:03:31 <ehird> AnMaster: 1 second / foo ms = fps
15:03:45 <ehird> Response time = how long a pixel takes to change from colour one to colour two.
15:03:48 <AnMaster> it's like bandwidth vs. latency
15:03:54 <ehird> No, it's not, you're talking crap.
15:04:03 <AnMaster> ehird, well there is latency on top of that too
15:04:09 <AnMaster> as in, processing time for gpu
15:04:26 <ehird> Electrons are pretty fast, y'know.
15:04:41 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah and cable length is far from enough for it to matter
15:04:47 <ehird> Also, I finished reading the Ubuntu Software Store article. Great UI.
15:04:59 <ehird> AnMaster: Ha! Spoken like someone who has never used a Lisp Machine.
15:05:07 <AnMaster> anyway, 33 fps will still look smooth for video and such won't it?
15:05:10 <ehird> Why, those were so noisy we started getting cable latency just to save our ears from certain death!
15:05:17 <ehird> Also, yes; movies are 24fps.
15:05:18 <AnMaster> after all PAL has some pretty low number iirc
15:05:27 <ehird> Really fast window moving might blur a bit.
15:05:33 <AnMaster> <ehird> AnMaster: Ha! Spoken like someone who has never used a Lisp Machine. ?
15:05:37 <ehird> NTSC is 29.99997 or somethin.
15:05:43 <ehird> AnMaster: re cable length latency
15:05:55 <ehird> But, for games it's pushing i.
15:06:03 <ehird> I don't really game, but...
15:06:13 <ehird> It's kind of irritating.
15:06:29 <AnMaster> ehird, how long cable would you need for that effect?
15:06:49 <ehird> Umm. Very, very long.
15:06:56 <ehird> I mean, we're talking electrons here, man.
15:08:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but that seems insane
15:08:17 <AnMaster> it would be several hundred meters at least right?
15:08:35 <AnMaster> ehird, ok that is silly for ear protection
15:09:21 <ehird> You never actually hear them if you keep them under your desk, but that's because your ears are immediately irrevocably damaged.
15:10:17 <AnMaster> ehird, well I mean, something like two rooms away with thick walls should be enough
15:10:26 <ehird> I'm joking, jesus christ.
15:14:51 <ehird> Elliott's First Principle of Software Development: Naming is not only the most important part of a software project (see Knuth), but it is also the hardest.
15:15:53 <ehird> (Elliott's Twenty-Third Principle of Software Development: You do NOT want separate document and tool windows. Don't believe me? One word: GIMP.)
15:15:58 <ehird> My principles are terribly specific.
15:18:02 <ehird> Let's see if they've managed to make a GUI designer that doesn't suck!
15:24:23 <coppro> that would require a toolkit that doesn't suck
15:24:30 <coppro> which is physically impossible
15:24:34 <fizzie> To be pedantic about it, the electrons aren't really moving all that fast, just the signals.
15:24:46 <ehird> coppro: i don't think gtk sucks *massively*
15:24:53 <ehird> well, glade at least isn't much to do with gtk programming, I'd say
15:24:59 <ehird> apart from the obvious stuff like signals, I presume
15:25:02 <ehird> coppro: well, everything sucks
15:25:05 <ehird> that's a useless metric
15:25:28 <coppro> some things don't suck
15:25:33 <coppro> hair dryers, for instance
15:26:33 <AnMaster> <coppro> hair dryers, for instance <-- they do when they are on too high heat :P
15:27:01 <AnMaster> (as a matter of fact they do, at the other end)
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15:58:04 <ehird> AnMaster: you know that macbook portable that had two dints where only one was needed for the trackball?
15:58:07 <ehird> you can move it to either side
16:01:50 <ehird> Hey, I change a setting and suddenly Compiz is running all smooth.
16:03:50 <AnMaster> ehird, "moving mouse", "changing setting"
16:04:02 <ehird> uh, in the macintosh portable
16:04:11 <ehird> with the two dents next to screen
16:04:16 <ehird> you said why two dents, one is enough for the trackball
16:04:54 <AnMaster> that is what I went heh at first
16:05:06 <AnMaster> then I decided to go heh at the changing setting in compiz
16:05:14 <ehird> "about both, what setting"
16:05:28 <ehird> anyway, compiz thought my monitor was 50 Hz, it's 60
16:05:32 <ehird> plus, enabled Sync to VBlank
16:05:38 <AnMaster> ehird, no the left side is "hahaha" and the right is "ahahah"
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16:17:05 <ehird> foo: Linux rev 1.0 ext2 filesystem data, UUID=3275a8a0-7d52-4ab0-b58d-d799e9b0bf3c
16:17:09 <ehird> nested filesystems~!
16:20:21 <ehird> fun to set up an md5sum on it and watch it change
16:20:41 <ehird> suggested filesystem feature: directories are just filesystem files
16:26:10 <ehird> "In that release to come in a year, that is when Canonical will begin selling select software from the Ubuntu Software Store."
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16:30:55 <ehird> kidPINGGGGGGGGGGGGS
16:45:15 <ehird> UI design sure ain't easy
17:06:18 <ehird> maybe i should make it a kde app, so i can drop all pretenses of usability, simplicity and design :)
17:23:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> "In that release to come in a year, that is when Canonical will begin selling select software from the Ubuntu Software Store." <-- sounds like I should plan changing distro
17:23:27 <ehird> Eh. The distro will still be FOSS.
17:23:39 <ehird> It's probably disableable too. But it IS really obnoxious.
17:24:01 <ehird> You'd think they'd just ask Shuttleworth for another couple million.
17:24:05 <AnMaster> you could argue that one shouldn't support that sort of obnoxious behaviour
17:24:23 <AnMaster> ehird, what about when shuttleworth dies in some years
17:24:55 <ehird> You mean in roughly 39 years?
17:24:59 <ehird> Yeah... not too worried about that.
17:25:09 <ehird> Also, inheritance. Also, I'm sure they'll come up with a business model by then.
17:25:16 <ehird> Also, they probably won't even exist then.
17:25:19 <AnMaster> ehird, well I don't know how old he is, plus there could be an accident or something
17:25:43 <ehird> He's too rich to have a car crash :-P
17:26:25 <AnMaster> ehird, ok then, private jet crash?
17:26:27 <fizzie> Spaceship crash, maybe. :p
17:26:46 <ehird> Rich people have a protective buffer of money around them at all times.
17:27:23 <ehird> He can actually program, which is cool.
17:27:32 <ehird> I mean, you'd think him a bit too... I don't know, rich.
17:28:17 <fizzie> Hah, the Mark Shuttleworth wikipedia bio page uses the {{Infobox Astronaut ...}} box.
17:28:56 <ehird> You know, no human has ever been born in outer space.
17:29:15 <ehird> The citizenship fight there would be fun
17:29:35 <AnMaster> the name shuttleworth... what with the space shuttles and everything it made me wonder if his name has any connection to it
17:29:43 <fizzie> Read that just as "no human has ever been in outer space", had a "what, ehird's one of the moon landing deniers?" moment there.
17:29:51 <ehird> fizzie: Yes. Also the ISS.
17:29:57 <ehird> Also everything NASA has ever done ever.
17:30:42 <AnMaster> ehird, wouldn't it be similar to being born on international water while on a cruise or something
17:30:51 <ehird> Yes, but much cooler.
17:31:06 <ehird> "I was born in international waters" ==> "your parents are boring sailor fags"
17:31:12 <ehird> "I was born in space" ==> "SPACE!"
17:31:31 <AnMaster> "He lived in Smuts Hall, where he was involved in the installation of the first residential Internet connections at the university." <-- hah. sv:smuts is en:dirt so that looked really strange
17:31:56 <AnMaster> <ehird> "I was born in international waters" ==> "your parents are boring sailor fags" <-- is "in" really the right preposition?
17:32:08 <AnMaster> it could be, just sounds strange to me
17:32:10 <ehird> AnMaster: Water birth, clearly.
17:32:14 -!- lament has changed nick to ErroneousDonk.
17:32:29 -!- ehird has changed nick to CorrectKond.
17:32:39 <CorrectKond> ErroneousDonk: We must fight to the death.
17:33:25 <AnMaster> that is the only possible explanation I can think of
17:34:44 <CorrectKond> ErroneousDonk: you are the erroneous donk of... uh, kruut.
17:34:59 <CorrectKond> we cannot possibly exist in the same universe.
17:35:37 * AnMaster guesses bad super hero comic from the "strange period"
17:37:17 <AnMaster> From the spam directory. Subject: Don't read
17:38:28 <CorrectKond> "Absolutely no free member enhancers here, nosiree. We do have viagra though."
17:39:16 <AnMaster> CorrectKond, it was just junk inside, like very often. it seems they put junk in the normal part and then the real spam in the html part
17:39:16 <AnMaster> and since I disable html mails
17:41:56 * CorrectKond bludgeons ErroneousDonk some more, for good measure
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17:48:42 <ais523> Given that a course starts on 28 September 2009 and lasts a minimum of 72 months and a maximum of 48 months:
17:48:48 <ais523> a) in which month does it end?
17:48:52 <ais523> b) how many different helpdesks did I have to contact before getting the correct answer?
17:49:10 <CorrectKond> well, the range is obviously ... what's inclusive and exclusive?
17:49:24 <ais523> CorrectKond: the range is obviously incorrect
17:49:30 <ais523> I think it's inclusive, but it doesn't really matter
17:49:44 <ais523> [ is inclusive, ( is exclusive
17:50:33 <FireFly> So, we know that a >= 72 and a <= 48
17:51:05 <ais523> (extra fun: at least one of the answers I was given was "January 2015")
17:52:05 <ais523> CorrectKond: what's with the nick change, btw?
17:53:59 <ais523> <ehird> is about as complete as cygwin.
17:54:15 * ais523 misread that as * ehird is about as complete as cygwin
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17:55:06 <ais523> also, wow IE7 is bad, especially at rendering Slashdot
17:55:16 <ais523> and firewalls that block port 6667 outbound are annoying
17:55:28 <ais523> I used to use Mibbit to get on IRC from that connection
17:55:34 <ais523> but now, I can't get onto freenode at all from it
17:55:46 <FireFly> Didn't freenode block mibbit?
17:55:50 <FireFly> In favour of their own web client
17:55:58 <ais523> it's a Java IRC client
17:56:02 <ais523> that happens to be hosted on a website
17:56:10 <ais523> but the only thing it has to do with the web is that's how you access it
17:57:25 <ais523> also, going back to logs, apt-get install has one advantage: it's a pretty quick way of installing repository packages from the command line when you already know which one you want
17:57:31 <FireFly> In favour of their IRC client hosted on their own servers, with a serverside backend and web frontend
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17:58:35 <ais523> there isn't any serverside at all
17:58:43 <ais523> well, apart from the usual IRC servers
17:58:49 <ais523> it's just an IRC client
17:59:29 <ais523> it's an IRC client written in Java
17:59:39 <ais523> whose only advantage over any other is that it doesn't involve installing an IRC client
17:59:40 <FireFly> http://webchat.freenode.net/ <-- Doesn't look like Java to me
17:59:50 <ais523> ah, I found a different one
17:59:55 <FireFly> Looks very much like XHR to me
17:59:57 <ais523> which is really confusing...
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18:01:02 <ais523> is Lucid Lynx the actual name, btw?
18:01:06 <ais523> or just a placeholder?
18:01:51 <ais523> <ehird> suggested filesystem feature: directories are just filesystem files
18:01:53 <ais523> I actually had that idea
18:02:03 <ais523> same for things like zipfiles
18:02:11 <ais523> you could use them as directories, and you got their contents
18:02:29 <ais523> really old versions of DOS used to work like that, but without the usability
18:03:09 <ais523> CorrectKond: I've read the logs, and I /still/ don't get the reason for the nicks...
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18:21:33 <AnMaster> <FireFly> So, we know that a >= 72 and a <= 48
18:21:51 <AnMaster> in module a number larger than 73
18:22:13 <AnMaster> it would be a crazy definition yeah
18:24:43 <AnMaster> ais523, what do you think about that definiton?
18:24:56 <ais523> greater-than doesn't really work with modulo
18:25:25 <AnMaster> ais523, true. But greater than 72, less than 48 in modulo 100 would be somewhere between 72 and 100 or 0 and 42
18:25:56 <ais523> AnMaster: anyway, if you use the modular definition, modulo 12 is the sensible one
18:25:59 <ais523> as it's months in a year
18:26:06 <ais523> and you'd conclude that the course would end in September
18:26:14 <ais523> which is why the January 2015 option came as such a surprise
18:26:58 <AnMaster> ais523, I wasn't aware when it started though
18:27:27 <AnMaster> anyway how can a course not be exactly a specific length?
18:28:12 <ais523> it is a specific length, just the computers disagree on what that is
18:28:42 <ais523> AnMaster: in actual fact, both are supposed to be 48; the 72 was an error
18:28:48 <ais523> although one that I've spent 2 days now trying to correct
18:29:52 <AnMaster> ais523, but why did you give min 72, max 48, not the other way around?
18:30:08 <AnMaster> I mean, it shows some computer system had a range for possible values
18:30:08 <ais523> AnMaster: because that's the way round it was on the computer
18:30:18 <ais523> which caused all sorts of hilarious side-effects
18:30:19 <AnMaster> so a course isn't a specific length?
18:30:34 <ais523> AnMaster: it seems that computer program allows for variable-length courses
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19:16:02 <fizzie> ais523: Lucid Lynx is the actual name, yes.
19:18:29 <fizzie> Very recently announced; last weekend, I think.
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20:15:00 <AnMaster> is there any fullfledged debugger with stepping and inspecting variables for python?
20:19:44 <fizzie> I've seen a graphical python debugger screenshot in someone's door at work, as a "in vacation" note, but I don't know what the debugger was.
20:20:22 <fizzie> Maybe "on vacation", but anyway.
20:25:47 <AnMaster> ok found a few in gentoo portage
20:26:38 <AnMaster> (need it on gentoo since I can't reproduce the issue easily elsewhere due to the software setup I need to debug being highly non-trivial to relocate)
20:35:16 <AnMaster> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pudb this looks mad
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20:49:39 <AnMaster> oh great the thing crashes because the server sends <!doctype html>
20:49:50 <AnMaster> ehird: I hope you HTML5 nuts are happy
20:52:08 <AnMaster> FireFly, pywikipediabot on a wiki
20:52:37 <AnMaster> (not on a wikimedia operated one)
20:53:15 <AnMaster> I'm not very happy with that debugger, but it did the job
20:53:17 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/rpdb2.py:308: DeprecationWarning: the sets module is deprecated
20:53:17 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/rpdb2.py:313: DeprecationWarning: The popen2 module is deprecated. Use the subprocess module.
20:53:17 <AnMaster> /usr/lib64/python2.6/site-packages/wx-2.8-gtk2-unicode/wx/_core.py:14448: UserWarning: wxPython/wxWidgets release number mismatch
20:53:20 <AnMaster> warnings.warn("wxPython/wxWidgets release number mismatch")
20:53:22 <AnMaster> is what the debugger prints when it starts
20:53:38 <AnMaster> the term "bitrot" comes to mind
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23:18:27 <Rugxulo> found a Brainf*** interpreter in Befunge, but I can't get it to work
23:18:35 <Rugxulo> (seems mtve also found it recently according to the comments)
23:18:42 <Rugxulo> http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2009/09/two-dimensional_pathology_befu.php
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23:30:57 * Rugxulo cannot figure the damn thing out!
23:31:49 <Ilari> Rugxulo: What is numeric range for interpretter you are using?
23:33:48 <Rugxulo> why, does it have to be a special bignum interpreter?
23:34:24 <Ilari> Rugxulo: It says so.
23:34:48 <Rugxulo> it's the exact same one from mtve's page, apparently
23:35:01 <Ilari> Rugxulo: AFAIK, Befunge-93 is TC only with bignums. Befunge-98 can be made to be TC without them.
23:39:47 <Rugxulo> oops, not mtve's page but the discussion page on Esolang Wiki, I think (NathanC's work, IIRC)
23:42:01 <Ilari> It could be interesting to write befunge-98 BF interpretter (no fingerprints, all numbers bounded)
23:42:30 <fizzie> I don't think fungot's ^bf uses any fingerprints, really.
23:42:31 <fungot> fizzie: ' yes, archchancellor?" said carrot.
23:42:51 <Rugxulo> ErroneousDonk: I haven't :-P
23:43:04 <fizzie> Or do you mean befunge-98 implemented in brainfuck? It's not immediately obvious from that.
23:43:29 <fizzie> I guess it would make more sense that way around.
23:43:36 <Rugxulo> most BF progs don't need more than 32-bits, do they? so it should still be possible for a modest pseudo-BF interpreter in B93, right??
23:43:46 <Ilari> fizzie: BF implemented in Befunge-98, no fingerprints, number range bounded.
23:44:09 <fizzie> Well, ^bf has that, except it has a tape length limit too, but it would be trivial to make it unlimited.
23:44:16 <fizzie> And number range is bounded to [0, 255].
23:47:26 <fizzie> I did a standalone version of the Underload interpreter -- or to be exact, I wrote the Underload interpreter as a standalone program and then only later integrated it in fungot -- but the brainfuck one is only available as a part of http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 -- lines ~350-372 turn a brainfuck program into a bytecode of sorts, and lines 294-306 execute that.
23:47:26 <fungot> fizzie: ridcully glared for scum, even clapping his hands over his face.
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23:49:54 <fizzie> If you want to be exact about it, the Befunge-98 funge-space isn't infinite either, because vector coordinates are limited to the cell size, so there's only 2^128 locations available in total. But you should be able to do a real infinite tape out of the stack-stack operations, I think we talked about this at some point.
23:50:20 <fizzie> (Unless you happen to have a bignum Befunge-98.)
23:51:51 <Ilari> fizzie: And bignum Befunge-93 would be TC anyway...
23:53:23 <fizzie> Yes. But with the stack-stack "u" a real tape is trivial even in a non-bignum Funge-98.
23:56:17 <fizzie> The classic "Befunge-93 interpreter in Befunge-93" is nice, too; http://catseye.tc/projects/befunge93/eg/befbef.bf
23:56:30 <fizzie> Admittedly the playfield for the interpreted code is a bit smaller.
23:58:53 <Rugxulo> mtve's is better (smaller)
23:59:14 <Rugxulo> http://www.frox25.no-ip.org/~mtve/code/eso/bef/bef_bef/
23:59:50 <fizzie> There's quite a lot of whitespace in the classic befbef.