00:01:43 <Rugxulo> okay, here's a link to Brainf*** in "bignum" Befunge (with instructions, examples, etc.)
00:01:53 <Rugxulo> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Befunge
00:02:27 <Rugxulo> silly that I got confused on the exact same program elsewhere (ah, memory is the first to go ...)
00:03:24 <Rugxulo> ErroneousDonk: Kial vi ne diskutas kun ni?   ;-))
00:04:30 <Rugxulo> Donk? ah, and I kept reading it as "Dork", meh
00:06:43 <Rugxulo> bigbef seems to be really really slow on quine.b
00:06:49 <Rugxulo> (or maybe it hung, I can't tell)
00:07:30 <Rugxulo> I'm letting it sit for a while just to see   :-)
00:11:27 * Rugxulo suspects the worst
00:14:14 <Rugxulo> maybe this quine expects some wraparound??
00:16:23 <Rugxulo> (canceled)
00:16:24 <Rugxulo> bah
00:17:10 <Rugxulo> oh well
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04:34:27 <augur> people!
04:34:53 <ErroneousDonk> where?
04:35:46 <augur> here!
04:35:55 <augur> i need someone who knows bash and regexes.
04:36:39 * coppro sorta does
04:37:43 <augur> i need to rename a file based on a regex
04:38:23 <coppro> I'd pipe find into grep
04:38:35 <coppro> or if you don't want recursive, just use a glob
04:38:59 <bsmntbombdood_> augur: rename
04:39:09 <bsmntbombdood_> (1)
04:39:22 <coppro> that's Perl and thus cheating
04:39:51 <augur> :P
04:39:54 <bsmntbombdood_> ...
04:40:17 <augur> im going to see if ruby has perms actually
04:40:17 <coppro> for source in list; do mv $source `echo $source | sed s/regex/replacement/`; done
04:40:17 <augur> it probably doesnt but
04:40:25 <augur> hold on
04:40:43 <pikhq> for source in list; do mv $source ${source/regex/replacement};done
04:54:53 <augur> oh hey!
04:54:55 <augur> ruby has perms
04:54:56 <augur> :D
04:54:57 <augur> php didnt
04:54:59 <augur> lame
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11:19:53 <ehird> <ais523> it isn't a web client
11:19:54 <ehird> <ais523> it's a Java IRC client
11:19:54 <ehird> <ais523> that happens to be hosted on a
11:19:56 <ehird> wrong
11:19:57 <ehird> they made a new one
11:20:07 <ehird> <ais523> also, going back to logs, apt-get install has one advantage: it's a pretty quick way of installing repository packages from the command line when you already know which one you want
11:20:12 <ehird> from the command line
11:20:14 <ehird> not when not in one
11:20:57 <ehird> <ais523> is Lucid Lynx the actual name, btw?
11:20:58 <ehird> <ais523> or just a placeholder?
11:20:58 <ehird> real
11:21:03 <ehird> <ais523> CorrectKond: I've read the logs, and I /still/ don't get the reason for the nicks...
11:21:09 <ehird> I just reacted to lament
11:22:17 <ehird> <AnMaster> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pudb this looks mad
11:22:20 <ehird> dude use the built-in debugger
11:22:31 <ehird> <AnMaster> oh great the thing crashes because the server sends <!doctype html>
11:22:31 <ehird> <AnMaster> ehird: I hope you HTML5 nuts are happy
11:22:36 <ehird> the program is broken -- it's the website's fault!
11:22:40 <ehird> -- AnMaster
11:25:02 <ehird> 20:39:22 <coppro> that's Perl and thus cheating
11:25:08 <ehird> 20:40:43 <pikhq> for source in list; do mv $source ${source/regex/replacement};done
11:25:11 <ehird> jesus christ people
11:25:28 <ehird> rename 's/regex/replacement/' $list
11:25:36 <ehird> waaah, it's perl
11:26:05 <Deewiant> That depends on which rename you have.
11:26:29 <Deewiant> I have the "rename from to file..." one.
11:26:39 <ehird> so use the perl one
11:27:54 <Deewiant> Just saying that that command doesn't work out-of-the-box on many systems.
11:28:59 <ehird> :P
11:29:38 <ehird> Deewiant: but the point is to do it in a quick oneliner, I assume, not a script
11:29:44 <ehird> in which case for portability you wouldn't be using ${//}.
11:30:46 <Deewiant> A quick oneliner is not so quick when you have to dig up the package containing that version of rename :-P
11:30:50 <ehird> Deewiant: you mean "perl"?
11:31:51 <Deewiant> ehird: On Arch, it's "prename"
11:32:10 <ehird> On Ubuntu, it's OH WAIT IT COMES WITH THAT.
11:32:10 <ehird> :P
11:32:13 <Deewiant> I have been on several other systems too where Perl certainly exists, but that rename does not, at least under that name.
11:34:31 <AnMaster> <ehird> dude use the built-in debugger <-- oh? what module?
11:34:37 <ehird> man python
11:34:47 <ehird> hmm, wait
11:34:49 <ehird> it is some modile
11:34:50 <ehird> module
11:34:52 <ehird> pdb i think
11:35:00 <ehird> python -m pdb poop.py
11:35:11 <ehird> http://docs.python.org/library/pdb.html manual
11:35:13 <AnMaster> <ehird> 20:40:43 <pikhq> for source in list; do mv $source ${source/regex/replacement};done <-- what is so wrong with that? it is what I usually do in such cases
11:35:44 <ehird> because it's identical to `rename "s/regex/replacement" $list` and 70 times longer just because coppro said it doesn't count because it's perl
11:35:52 <AnMaster> ehird, ah
11:36:09 <AnMaster> ehird, and I don't have that rename you mentioned either
11:36:24 <AnMaster> also hm is the ratio really 70:1?
11:36:56 <ehird> No. :P
11:37:00 <ehird> Also, it's default on Ubuntu, at least.
11:37:11 <ehird> It's an official part of perl, at least.
11:37:11 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah but not most other distros IME
11:37:22 <ehird> Well, install it then; it's good. :P
11:38:00 <AnMaster> ehird, happen to know the website of this version of rename so I can find the right one?
11:38:07 <ehird> Uh, http://perl.org/
11:38:18 <ehird> It's part of perl.
11:38:21 <AnMaster> also as Deewiant said, "<Deewiant> A quick oneliner is not so quick when you have to dig up the package containing that version of rename :-P"
11:38:39 <ehird> True Slack is putting in the work to be lazier in future.
11:38:47 <AnMaster> can't find it in the perl package at least
11:38:51 <ehird> Plus, perl regexps kinda beat bash regexps.
11:38:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Presumably your distro mangles packages.
11:39:09 <AnMaster> ehird, define mangles
11:39:18 <ehird> Extracts programs, puts them in other places, etc.
11:39:19 <Deewiant> The Arch pkgbuild gets it from Debian's Perl package
11:39:30 <ehird> Also the cause of many Ruby installation woes, because Debian splits up near-essential parts.
11:39:32 <Deewiant> So I believe it is Debian here doing the mangling, by adding such a thing.
11:40:03 <ehird> GHC too.
11:40:07 <ehird> Deewiant: Uh, no. I can prove it:
11:40:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, yeah that is my conclusion too looking around
11:40:17 <ehird> RENAME(1)              Perl Programmers Reference Guide              RENAME(1)
11:40:20 <ehird> AUTHOR
11:40:20 <ehird>        Larry Wall
11:40:22 <ehird> perl v5.10.0                      2009-06-26                         RENAME(1)
11:40:25 <ehird> Conclusion: Part of perl.
11:40:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, a person can only distribute his code in a single package. Maintaining two programs is forbidden by law
11:41:20 <ehird> Yeah, generally people don't say "perl v5.10.0" in a package that isn't that, and put it in the Perl Programmers Reference Guide.
11:41:22 <ehird> JUST SAYIN'
11:43:21 <Deewiant> ehird: It's not in perl-5.10.1.tar.gz from perl.org.
11:43:29 <ehird> Probably a ./configure option.
11:43:32 <AnMaster> indeed I checked that too just now
11:43:35 <ehird> Or some auxillary perl.org package, at least.
11:43:52 <AnMaster> ehird, "<ehird> Or some auxillary perl.org package, at least." <-- That is, not part of main perl package.
11:44:06 <ehird> It's still part of perl then, just not core perl.
11:44:18 <Deewiant> All of CPAN is "part of Perl" now?
11:44:19 <ehird> http://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=larry+wall+rename OK, I take it back.
11:44:26 <ehird> AHA:
11:44:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, of course.
11:44:30 <ehird> "from Larry Wall's original script eg/rename from the perl source"
11:44:37 <ehird> Deewiant: CPAN is not a perl.org perl package.
11:44:39 <Deewiant> Yep, but it's not there any more.
11:44:46 <ehird> Who cares
11:44:52 <ehird> When it was part of anything it was part of perl
11:44:53 <AnMaster> ehird, well you were claiming it was
11:44:53 <Deewiant> ehird: Neither is Perl, as it's downloaded from cpan.org.
11:45:17 <ehird> Deewiant: Similarly, sourceforge packages aren't from sourceforge.net.
11:45:23 <AnMaster> indeed, perl.org download link takes me to ftp://ftp.cpan.org/pub/CPAN/src/5.0/
11:45:25 <ehird> They're from **Nondeterminism error
11:45:44 <AnMaster> ehird, cpan.org isn't a mirror of perl.org though
11:45:54 <Deewiant> ehird: They are from dl.sourceforge.net, actually.
11:46:04 <Deewiant> Anyway, I'm done with this nitpicking
11:46:06 <AnMaster> and then mirrored
11:46:07 <Deewiant> Off ->
11:46:21 <ehird> Nitpicking is like pedanticism, except annoying and not interesting.
11:46:46 <AnMaster> ehird, didn't you say that distros *NOT* including the perl rename with the perl package were mangling?
11:46:55 <ehird> X_X
11:46:59 <ehird> Can we shut the fuck up about this?
11:47:03 <AnMaster> so yeah it is the opposite
11:47:10 <AnMaster> ehird, sure.
11:47:22 <ehird> I know you have some sort of deep-seated urge to prove every trivial thing I say wrong and come out on top, triumphant, saying "Ha! You were WRONG!", but it really just comes out as seeming insecure.
11:47:33 <AnMaster> just you were trying to attack gentoo on the grounds that it didn't include rename with the perl package itself
11:48:24 <ehird> Yeah, I was launching a vicious attack on Gentoo and you know what, fuck off, you really are insecure.
11:48:42 <AnMaster> I have no idea how you came to that conclusion
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12:11:38 <ehird> Flash in Epiphany is so buggy... but the browser is wonderful otherwise.
12:19:44 <ehird> Compiz's window placement sucks. Wonder if Metacity's does too.
12:26:50 <ehird> It just puts windows in successive corners.
12:26:57 <ehird> Which is super-retarded, as nothing ever has center focus.
12:27:40 <AnMaster> ehird, metacity seems to do a bit better than that here. But it seems to depend on window size too
12:27:54 <ehird> Well yes, small windows seem to be centered.
12:28:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I meant that windows covering more than half the screen are always placed somewhat center, offset a bit towards upper left corner
12:29:04 <ehird> Not doing that with Epiphany windows here.
12:29:13 <ehird> I'll try metacity.
12:29:15 <AnMaster> and if two such big ones are opened after each other they seem to end up so that the title bar of the previous one still is visible
12:29:26 <ehird> I sure didn't think window placement would be the thing I'd miss from OS X...
12:29:35 <AnMaster> ehird, tried kate and the help browser after each other
12:29:50 <ehird> Cool, with metacity it cascades new windows from top-left.
12:30:00 <ehird> Wait, no, not cool, the other thing; retarded.
12:30:23 <AnMaster> ehird, not exactly that here. But it could be because I have other windows open in various parts of the screen already
12:30:28 <ehird> ...but better than Compiz's "Smart" placement, so I'll tell Compiz to cascade.
12:30:40 * ehird makes a note to write a good placement module sometime
12:30:59 <AnMaster> I would like to know what algorithm you prefer
12:31:13 <AnMaster> I certainly agree metacity isn't perfect
12:31:13 <ehird> I should just get a small-resolution laptop so I can tell it to maximize everything. :)
12:31:22 <ehird> AnMaster: What OS X does is great, what Windows does is fine.
12:31:33 <ehird> Cascading makes me do more moving of windows, but doesn't annoy me.
12:31:38 <ehird> Alternating corners makes me rage.
12:32:29 <ehird> Anyway, I think someone implanted a virus in Ubuntu that makes you want to contribute to the projects.
12:32:44 <AnMaster> btw I used that disk usage analyser app in gnome/ubuntu. Quite interesting "not quite pie-chart, but something circular still" it generates. Two most visual things: $HOME/.VirtualBox and $HOME/icc
12:32:49 <AnMaster> err
12:32:49 <ehird> I'm certainly tempted to, but I'm scared of the useless bug trackers...
12:32:52 <AnMaster> s/visual/visible/
12:33:02 <AnMaster> that is, when analysing /
12:33:04 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, that thing's... interesting.
12:33:18 <ehird> Took me a few seconds of hovering to work it out, so I'd say non-ideal.
12:33:25 <AnMaster> ehird, icc is quite bloated. 2.6 GB for ICC!
12:33:32 <ehird> Ow.
12:33:49 <AnMaster> ehird, mind you, that include docs, but the docs isn't the main part of it
12:34:00 <ehird> AnMaster: System -> Administration -> Authorisations has AppArmor stuff, btw.
12:34:04 <ehird> Or SELinux, who knows.
12:34:20 <ehird> Not much there, actually; a few scheduling options and low-level permissions, but nothing frontend.
12:34:26 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I looked at that, couldn't find any docs on how it worked and decided it was best to leave it for now thus
12:34:28 <AnMaster> not wanting to mess things up badly
12:34:37 <ehird> It looks quite scary, yes.
12:34:53 <ehird> Heh, OpenOffice takes a good chunk of my disk (and also sucks).
12:34:57 <AnMaster> well, not really, just it doesn't tell you very well what the various alternatives do
12:35:01 <ehird> But I won't remove it, because I want ubtunu-desktop.
12:35:04 <ehird> *ubuntu
12:35:10 <AnMaster> ehird, yep, but that is still way less than icc
12:35:11 <ehird> Also apt archives.
12:36:00 <AnMaster> hm the single largest subdir to icc is ipp/em64t/lib at 1.2 GB (ipp itself is 1.6 GB)
12:36:01 <ehird> Everything else (that isn't big like /usr) is quite small; /usr/share is 901MiB but consists of a lot of quite small stuff.
12:36:33 <ehird> Well, it might be MB, actually.
12:36:35 <AnMaster> /usr is 5.6 GB and home 22.0 GB
12:36:48 <AnMaster> but the main chunk in home is virtualbox harddrives
12:36:50 <ehird> I think GNOME uses base-2 filesystem sizes, though, because it says 60.4 GB instead of 64 GB.
12:37:03 <ehird> Hope that changes sometime...
12:37:03 <AnMaster> (roughly 13.3 GB)
12:37:06 <ehird> I'm only using 3.3GiB, anyway.
12:37:24 <ehird> AnMaster: Try "View as Treemap Chart". You too can be a modern artist!
12:37:34 <ehird> It's also more helpful than the other view, I think.
12:37:46 <ehird> Although it's hard to hover over /usr; just the borders, really.
12:38:37 <AnMaster> ehird, /srv is 1003.9 MB (so yeah 1024 or it would be listed as 1 GB instead), why? because following some ubuntu guide on 32-bit chroot put it under /srv/chroot, couldn't think of a good reason to change that.
12:39:29 <ehird> /srv is one of those things the FHS guys invented because they're stupid and nobody uses. :P
12:39:31 <AnMaster> ehird, I think Gregor's colour matcher was used for that... In the "generate non-matching" mode that is
12:39:50 <AnMaster> ehird, well alternative was /var/chroot, would be trivial to move though
12:39:56 <ehird> Just looked up; "Data for services provided by this system"
12:40:01 <ehird> I don't think that's the best place for a chroot.
12:40:07 <AnMaster> ehird, true
12:40:11 <ehird> (/srv)
12:42:07 * ehird wonders whether /-commands are really needed in an IRC client in this day and age
12:42:19 <ehird> it seems like /j is pointless if you have a Ctrl+J
12:42:27 <ehird> /me is a bit tricky though
12:42:32 <AnMaster> ehird, um, /j #foo is faster?
12:42:37 <ehird> Ctrl+J #foo <ENTER>
12:42:39 <AnMaster> or at least equally fast
12:42:40 <ehird> /j #foo <ENTER>
12:42:42 <ehird> Really?
12:42:47 <AnMaster> ehird, ok then, old habits die hard
12:43:02 <ehird> And the former is better because you can reuse whatever GUI widget or whatever you have, and it also means you don't have to escape / all the time at the start of lines.
12:43:06 <ehird> (Which ate my /srv message before.)
12:43:20 <ehird> (You can be inconsistent and only block some /s that you handle, but that's even more confusing when it drops a message.)
12:43:51 <ehird> AnMaster: I'm trying to make an IRC client that follows the GNOME HIG to a T; I'm pretty sure old IRC habits are going to be brutally murdered.
12:44:01 <ehird> (Human Interface Guidelines)
12:44:25 <AnMaster> to a T?
12:44:41 <ehird> http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/to-a-t.html
12:44:45 <ehird> An idiom.
12:45:34 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway what about stuff like /me and /whois and so on. Plus what about when you need to enter a command there is no keybinding for. Ctrl-O for oper? Ctrl-g for gline or Ctrl-g for kline? And so on.
12:45:42 <AnMaster> and there is gzline/zline too on some ircds
12:45:51 <AnMaster> oh and syntax differs for those generally
12:46:00 <ehird> <ehird> /me is a bit tricky though
12:46:10 <AnMaster> ehird, ah yes missed that line
12:46:29 <ehird> Also, /whois would probably be done by double clicking the user or using the menu. :P
12:46:46 <AnMaster> ehird, would that do /whois nick or /whois nick nick
12:46:47 <ehird> So you could do a shortcut then by, say, Alt+foo W, where foo is the shortcut key of the menu with whois in it.
12:46:50 <AnMaster> the latter picks up idle time too
12:47:00 <ehird> AnMaster: The latter has more info, and it'd be displayed as a dialog box, so the latter.
12:47:49 <ehird> Man, the Bitch-X users will kill me. :)
12:48:59 <AnMaster> edge case time! (but this actually happened to me once) What if there are network problems (DDoS say) but you still need to gline a spambot, a nick nick whois would take way longer and if servers are about to split might not work at all, but with nick one time you can still get it and act on it, of course the gline won't be applied for some time (in the case of a split, not until the servers reconnect
12:49:00 <AnMaster>  after)
12:49:17 <ehird> Um, connect with telnet? :P
12:49:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm NOT zzo
12:49:34 <ehird> USER AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster AnMaster
12:49:37 <ehird> NICK AnMaster
12:49:40 <ehird> PASS poop
12:49:43 <ehird> GLINEFUCKYEAH
12:49:44 <ehird> QUIT :
12:50:04 <ehird> I dunno how I'll represent the multitude of possible actions on a user, anyway.
12:50:08 <AnMaster> you will always need a way to send arbritary commands to the server. Even if you for some odd reason decide "lets make this client unusable to opers"
12:50:24 <ehird> Well, yes, of course there'll be a raw.
12:50:37 <ehird> But I don't think Alt+blah W name <ENTER> is any less usable than /whois name <ENTER>
12:50:55 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah and it differs between ircds. Anyway it is simple, let user customise menus with options if the defaults doesn't fit their need. Even xchat has that iirc
12:51:11 <ehird> The menus will contain everything.
12:51:56 <ehird> But really, I'm not looking to attract opers; I'm looking to attract the 90% of IRC users who just talk and do 90% of the operations on users, channels etc.
12:52:12 <ehird> X-Chat will always be there.
12:52:28 <AnMaster> ehird, impossible because you can do wildcard glines. Like say: /gline *.idiot.ru 2d4h :reason blah blah
12:52:33 <AnMaster> well, syntax will differ between ircds
12:52:41 <AnMaster> and so will names for it
12:52:42 <ehird> Menus open dialog boxes, you know
12:52:53 <ehird> I'm not filing every possible nickname input under a submenu :)
12:52:56 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, but I mean stuff like parameter position and format may differ
12:53:07 <ehird> Use the raw. Write a plugin.
12:53:37 <ehird> (I'm pretty sure plugins reacting to text will be useful for some things, so no reason not to let them add menu items.)
12:53:53 <AnMaster> like removing a gline? /gline -<match here>    or maybe /ungline   or even /gline <match here, but exclude the timeout and reason>
12:53:57 <AnMaster> I seen all three
12:53:59 <ehird> See ^
12:54:03 <AnMaster> ehird, yep
12:54:58 <ehird> But there's really not much more I can say other than that's not my target market.
12:55:51 <AnMaster> ehird, right. But even so I can't see how you can remove / really. There is /me yes but sure you could make "/me" be the only special one I guess.
12:56:20 <ehird> I guess I'll give it a keyboard shortcut for "Send" vs "Send as action".
12:56:25 <AnMaster> however that will be irritating if you typo /mee /em or such. Instead of getting something like "no such command" you would get that on irc channel
12:56:30 <AnMaster> ehird, ah that could work
12:56:31 <ehird> <Enter> is Send, <whatever> is Send as action.
12:56:35 <AnMaster> maybe
12:56:51 <ehird> Quicker to type, to boot. I know existing clients let you assign such a key.
12:57:20 <ehird> But really, I'll see how it ends up. I'm just not going to think "well, other clients have this, so I'd better do it that way".
12:58:44 <AnMaster> how will you represent different servers? I found that the tree view mode of xchat works fairly well
12:59:05 <ehird> Yes, XChat-GNOME uses it too and it seems sane.
12:59:42 <ehird> Although I'll probably use "Network" instead of "Server", in accordance with "Create a Match Between Your Application and the Real World" (which is a bad title, but basically comes down to "use a term that's just as valid but not jargon when possible").
12:59:59 <ehird> ("Network" sounds like IRC jargon, but not to someone who doesn't know of its IRC usage: it's a network of people.)
13:00:12 <ehird> (Note "just as valid"; it's not dumbing down.)
13:00:44 <ehird> (Alternative reading: "I'm going to be a Mazi and remove every button!")
13:00:44 <AnMaster> ehird, I don't know how may irc channels you are on, but I can assure you that the tree view scales well even to my levels. A bit of scrolling yeah (less after I patched to code to reduce distance between lines) but way better than tabs and such
13:00:46 <ehird> *Nazi
13:01:10 <ehird> AnMaster: The GNOME tree view has simple searching, too, so a lot of that scrolling would be eliminated.
13:01:28 <ehird> I am currently in two channels; the most channels I'm ever actually looking at regularly is about 4, but that's mostly by choice.
13:01:29 <AnMaster> ehird, of course network is valid. But I guess you aren't the kind of guy to connect to more than one server on a network at the same time ever ;)
13:01:36 <ehird> People... do that?
13:01:43 <AnMaster> it's quite possibly something only opers do.
13:01:44 <ehird> What, to avoid netsplits?
13:02:06 <AnMaster> ehird, for opers, when you try to pick up things after a bad netsplit :P
13:02:30 <ehird> I wonder why irssi is the only client that detects netsplits and condenses them to "Netsplit between servers, people quit: a, b, c, ...".
13:02:32 <AnMaster> say, when the server went down due to hardware issues and you are relinking stuff
13:02:36 <ehird> It's annoying to have text interrupted by a netsplit.
13:02:42 <AnMaster> <ehird> I wonder why irssi is the only client that detects netsplits and condenses them to "Netsplit between servers, people quit: a, b, c, ...". <-- seen other ones do it iirc
13:03:11 <AnMaster> for example I think there was some xchat script to do it, and quite possible there is a mirc script for it
13:03:57 <AnMaster> ehird, well, as long as you notice that the guy you were just talking to isn't in the channel any more ;P
13:04:07 <ehird> AnMaster: You'll notice that when tab completion fails. :P
13:04:46 <AnMaster> not everyone highlights quite as much as I do. Unless they spent their first year on irc in busy channels like ##linux and #gentoo
13:04:56 <AnMaster> where it is more or less required to keep track
13:05:06 <AnMaster> ;P
13:05:19 <AnMaster> oh btw, about detecting netsplits. What would you match on?
13:05:52 <AnMaster> (this question isn't as silly as it sounds)
13:06:05 <AnMaster> (there is a good reason I ask)(
13:06:12 <AnMaster> s/($//
13:06:39 <AnMaster> (oh and that is valid sed iirc, for ( to act special you would need to escape it. Yeah sed is a bit weird sometimes)
13:09:42 <comex> that's why I use sed -r
13:13:32 <ehird> back
13:13:56 <ehird> AnMaster: that's posix regexps
13:14:04 <ehird> also, just (server server) as quit message.
13:14:20 <AnMaster> ehird, ah hm right
13:14:43 <AnMaster> ehird, where first server doesn't end with a :?
13:14:57 <AnMaster> err that is: ... a ":"?
13:15:01 <ehird> I guess so.
13:15:28 <ehird> irssi also handles "Netsplit over, joins: ..." which is impressive.
13:15:28 <AnMaster> while freenode puts quotes around quit reasons from /quit, some servers do it like: Quit: <user reason here>
13:15:35 <AnMaster> and I have seen yet other ones
13:15:50 <AnMaster> like: [Quit] <User reason here>
13:15:53 <AnMaster> and what not
13:16:14 <AnMaster> oh and some servers hide netsplits (like freenode does) but unlike freenode instead shows it as: *.net *.split
13:16:30 <AnMaster> that is quite a common replacement for when hiding
13:17:01 <ehird> Crazy IRC servers.
13:17:46 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it is, I guess it detects a burst join (people could quit that server, and reconnect to another. Quite likely even if the server they were on split because it itself had network troubles, rather than due to some hub having issues, or just a route messup to part of the internet)
13:18:11 <ehird> irssi is a solid piece of software, even if I dislike the interface.
13:18:21 <ehird> (But I'm not going to write an irssi frontend; that'd just be a world of pain.)
13:19:13 <AnMaster> yes it would, since it does have some internal flaws too. Mostly related to networks using less traditionalist server software. And being idiot about the prefix list in 005
13:19:27 <ehird> *idiotic
13:19:40 <AnMaster> yeah
13:20:02 <ehird> Anyone remember irssi2? It still exists, I think. tl;dr it's like xmms2 for irssi; i.e. totally unlike v1, server/client architecture galore, overengineered, and will never be usable.
13:20:25 <AnMaster> for a long time (don't know if it is still like this) irssi allowed exactly voice, half-op, op and one additional. Except almost all of the networks with additional prefixes has exactly two additional ones
13:20:30 <AnMaster> have*
13:20:46 <AnMaster> which was kind of irritating as it meant it messed up showing one of them
13:21:04 <AnMaster> ehird, second system syndrome?
13:21:08 <ehird> AnMaster: very.
13:21:10 <AnMaster> also I never heard of irssi2 before
13:21:24 <AnMaster> s/o/o,/
13:23:07 <ehird> That GNOME vs KDE article with the vomiting-drug-using-laptop-slamming GNOME developers and the European-with-quiet-classical-music-in-a-glass-building-then-random-killing KDE developers seems to have reversed.
13:23:45 <ehird> KDE's all ooh, shiny, moar bloat these days and GNOME is all serious and usability-researching and everything.
13:24:57 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, it was like that article described quite some time ago though.
13:25:11 <ehird> I think GNOME 2.0 and KDE 3.0 was when it flipped.
13:25:25 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah, some point midway during KDE 3 life time I'd say
13:25:48 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/KDE_3.0.jpg ;; Wow, I hope this wasn't t he default theme.
13:25:59 <ehird> Bad OS X ripoff window borders, awful green windows...
13:26:05 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure it wasn't
13:26:16 <ehird> (What is it with Linuxers and imitating OS X?)
13:26:32 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/KDE-3.1-es-ES.png ;; looks like KDE 3.1 was when it started happening
13:26:42 <AnMaster> ehird, no clue, I think it is mostly with "screenshotting linux users" rather than linux users in general
13:26:48 <ehird> True.
13:27:02 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Kde_3_3_screengrab.png ;; Wow, it's like you took this screenshot.
13:27:15 <ehird> KDE 2 theme on KDE 3 + Swedish + uberhinted text.
13:27:24 <AnMaster> ehird, I'd move it more towards KDE 3.2 for the first hints of it, and KDE 3.4 well on the way. KDE 3.5 definitely had it bad yeah
13:27:59 <AnMaster> ehird, heh looks nice apart from the huge text shadow on desktop. And that isn't antialiased at all
13:28:15 <ehird> Close enough. But ow, I just noticed that shadow when you pointed it out.
13:28:18 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined.
13:28:22 <ehird> More of a smudge than a shadow.
13:28:29 <AnMaster> ehird, also I wouldn't used the gradient for either desktop or the kicker
13:28:56 <ehird> Incidentally, GNOME 2.28 is going to move in a decidedly un-candylike direction: by default, no icons will be displayed in menus.
13:29:13 <AnMaster> ehird, hm that is actually a step backwards in usability
13:29:18 <ehird> Nope, actually:
13:29:27 <AnMaster> because icons are useful for quickly finding what you want when you know what it is
13:29:36 <ehird> "#
13:29:37 <ehird> By default, many — but not all — push buttons and menu items have an icon as well as text. As well as making the interface more cluttered, this slows people down by misleading them into thinking that they can decipher a transient control’s icon faster than they can read its text, which is rarely if ever true."
13:29:40 <ehird> -- Matthew Paul Thomas
13:29:40 <AnMaster> like, I want lyx, I can visually quickly find the lyx icon in the meny
13:29:42 <AnMaster> menu*
13:29:50 <ehird> You need very big icons to be able to make snap decisions like that.
13:30:04 <ehird> AnMaster: True, for application menus it might be better to have icons.
13:30:11 <AnMaster> ehird, well for buttons I agree. But I meant for application menu only
13:30:19 <ehird> Not buttons, menu items like Zoom In and the like.
13:30:25 <ehird> Well, also OK/Cancel buttons.
13:30:47 <ehird> AnMaster: maybe an icon you use so often that your brain looks for the icon should be in a panel, though.
13:30:56 <AnMaster> ehird, toolbar buttons with icons is useful though
13:31:13 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes but that would fill the panel
13:31:14 <ehird> Yes, the toolbar icons are good because they're big and making icons for them isn't tedious as they're the most common options.
13:31:31 <ehird> They're considering moving the icon text to the right so that text only appears for some icons and to save vertical space, but I think that's misguided.
13:31:38 <AnMaster> I hate ff, kate, thunderbird, konsole and some more in the panel
13:31:40 <ehird> As the icons are useful for locating, but not discovering.
13:31:48 <AnMaster> but lyx I maybe use once every second week or so?
13:31:49 <ehird> AnMaster: You hate all those applications you use? Gee.
13:31:54 <AnMaster> sometimes more, sometimes less
13:31:55 <ehird> hyuk hyuk
13:32:02 <ehird> <AnMaster> I hate ff, kate, thunderbird, konsole and some more in the panel
13:32:13 <AnMaster> ehird, hm I dislike ff but for uni website I need it.
13:32:19 <AnMaster> I also have konq there
13:32:24 <ehird> Read what you said.
13:32:25 <ehird> <AnMaster> I hate ff, kate, thunderbird, konsole and some more in the panel
13:32:32 <AnMaster> ehird, oh hah
13:32:34 <AnMaster> have*
13:32:40 <AnMaster> (of course)
13:32:44 <AnMaster> :P
13:32:54 <ehird> (re browsers: Did I mention I like Epiphany?)
13:33:01 <AnMaster> ehird, yes you did
13:33:03 <ehird> :P
13:33:51 <AnMaster> anyway, there are lots of app that I don't use quite enough to have them in panel (and having too many makes it harder to find a specific one in it too, more icons to scan through)
13:34:03 <AnMaster> but still use often enough to locate with icon
13:34:13 <ehird> Icons are probably best for subconscious honing.
13:34:20 <AnMaster> yep
13:34:38 <AnMaster> works quite well for stuff like save/open/cut/copy/paste as well
13:34:45 <ehird> Nope, that's the thing.
13:35:07 <AnMaster> ehird, since it is the same icons for those all across gnome (and KDE too if you set it to that)
13:35:08 <ehird> You don't use menus for cut/copy/paste unless you haven't heard of them yet, and save/open are in the toolbar.
13:35:24 <ehird> Menus are for (a) not so common operations and (b) discovering operations.
13:35:31 <AnMaster> ehird, what about zoom then? key combo is less standard for that
13:35:42 <ehird> For both of these, icons slow you down: it seems like you should be able to understand this small image more quickly than reading the text.
13:35:52 <ehird> But in fact, that's generally not true (we're good at reading).
13:35:54 <AnMaster> hm
13:36:08 <AnMaster> depends on how well organised the menu is
13:36:10 <ehird> AnMaster: If zooming is a common operation it'll be in the toolbar. If not, well, the icon won't be standard if the shortcut isn't.
13:36:16 <AnMaster> plus what about the special case of "settings/preferences"?
13:36:26 <ehird> That's always in Edit at the bottom in GNOME.
13:36:56 <AnMaster> ehird, not so in KDE apps. Rather some menu at the end.
13:37:11 <AnMaster> last one before help menu usuaully
13:37:12 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, and the icons won't be the same in KDE apps either, so it slows you down trying to recognize them.
13:37:20 <ehird> In that case no-icon menus actually speed up discovering where it is in this program.
13:37:30 <AnMaster> hm
13:37:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Two other reasons it was done: cleaner look, quicker development (making a good icon for many new operations is hard and  tedious).
13:37:40 <ehird> *and tedious
13:38:13 <ehird> Personally another reason it's good is that right now, the start of the menu name is aligned with the icon, and so I have to move my eyes to read the text, which is annoying.
13:38:50 <AnMaster> ehird, what about firefox then? There it helps because a) locations vary between platforms b) icons don't (at least between linux/windows iirc, don't remember for the os x case)
13:39:03 <ehird> Sure they do vary for Linux.
13:39:09 <ehird> They use the GNOME icons when you have GNOME.
13:39:21 <AnMaster> ehird, seems like firefox use their own. At least for stuff like "add-ons" and such
13:39:26 <ehird> Yes, but not Preferences.
13:39:27 <AnMaster> "settings"
13:39:33 <AnMaster> hm sure?
13:39:34 <ehird> Mostly Preferences moves in Firefox, not much else.
13:39:40 <AnMaster> well yeah
13:39:50 <AnMaster> thought it was same icon. but ok
13:40:01 <ehird> Well, it may be an option to enable GNOMEification.
13:40:15 <ehird> Or ubufox might do it (Ubuntu's Firefox changes).
13:40:37 <AnMaster> ehird, they are same on ubuntu and gentoo for me.
13:40:48 <AnMaster> a blue gear on a gray gear
13:40:53 <AnMaster> on top of*
13:41:02 <ehird> Not here.
13:41:05 <AnMaster> blue gear slightly smaller
13:41:18 <AnMaster> and that ubuntu extension to firefox is enabled
13:41:22 <ehird> Help -> About Mozilla Firefox; "Mozilla Firefox for Ubuntu" "canonical - 1.0" here.
13:41:37 <AnMaster> ehird, same hm
13:41:45 <ehird> Also, amusing about your addons point; the addons entry has no icon.
13:42:04 <ehird> Even disabling Ubuntu's extension, it still has the GNOME icon.
13:42:12 <ehird> AnMaster: What GNOME theme are you using?
13:42:14 <ehird> Human here.
13:42:15 <AnMaster> ehird, does here. A green puzzle "bit" (or whatever the term is)
13:42:27 <AnMaster> ehird, sec. checking
13:42:39 <AnMaster> clearlooks
13:42:42 <ehird> Also, what Firefox version? 3.0.14 here.
13:42:45 <ehird> AnMaster: Well then.
13:42:47 <AnMaster> same
13:42:48 <ehird> That's using the Clearlooks icon set.
13:42:50 <AnMaster> HOWEVER
13:42:52 <ehird> Check a GNOME app. It'll be the same.
13:43:00 <AnMaster> I'm not using default firefox theme I just rememberd
13:43:03 <AnMaster> so that may be what does it
13:43:26 <ehird> Probably. The Clearlooks Preferences icon (and in Firefox too) is a bunch of... uh...
13:43:29 <ehird> The knobs on the up/down things you can move.
13:43:33 <ehird> Like, not twist.
13:43:46 <ehird> Also, Clearlooks is still in-your-face. I preferred the old-style Clearlooks...
13:44:04 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, but that isn't what firefox uses at all here. So yeah I guess due to firefox theme
13:44:17 <AnMaster> ehird, well, it was the best of those available by default
13:44:18 <ehird> http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.6.png ;; old Clearlooks, more sane and less glaring
13:44:24 <AnMaster> with some tuning it is quite okish
13:44:31 <AnMaster> far from good, too round in forms
13:44:35 <ehird> AnMaster: You might like Mist; it's very flat.
13:44:42 <ehird> Install gnome-themes or gnome-themes-extra; I forget.
13:45:06 <ehird> AnMaster: If you go to the Clearlooks details, you can change it to ClearlooksClassic, which has nicer controls.
13:45:12 <AnMaster> ehird, I do want some slight non-flatness to easier see what is buttons and such. Just I dislike the strongly rounded corners
13:45:16 <ehird> Colours still need changing to not glare, though.
13:45:19 <AnMaster> I prefer more angular ones
13:45:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, it is outdented slightly.
13:45:28 <AnMaster> hm
13:45:29 <ehird> If you don'tw ant to install anything, try Glider.
13:45:42 <ehird> *don't want
13:46:04 <AnMaster> glider hm?
13:46:10 <AnMaster> anyway installing gnome-themes atm
13:46:18 <ehird> Oh, maybe Glider is in that package.
13:46:41 <ehird> Personally I like Human, probably because blue is so overdone.
13:46:43 <ehird> A green theme would be nice too.
13:47:02 <ehird> (Well, technically you can change Human's colour, I think.)
13:47:13 <AnMaster> ehird, can you save your current one? One thing that annoys me with gnome preferences is that there is just "close" no easy "cancel" button
13:47:30 <ehird> "Save As..."
13:47:37 <ehird> AnMaster: Custom themes don't modify.
13:47:44 <AnMaster> ehird, for some reason it is grayed out...
13:47:45 <ehird> The button is "Customise...", not change.
13:47:48 <AnMaster> and yes I changed stuff
13:47:54 <ehird> You're making a custom version, for yourself; it does not change the original theme.
13:48:00 <ehird> ( I am now sporting a green Human. It is ugly.)
13:48:03 <ehird> *(I
13:48:12 <ehird> AnMaster: You can't save as a theme you didn't change...
13:48:16 <ehird> That'd just be a duplicate.
13:48:32 <AnMaster> ehird, I did however. So sounds like a bug. Opening customise and then just closing it enabled the button
13:48:37 <ehird> As I said: customising does not change the original; that isn't what "customise" means.
13:48:48 <ehird> AnMaster: Uhh, no, you're just misguided as to what you pressed, I think.
13:48:55 <ehird> Your selection was Custom, right?
13:48:58 <AnMaster> ehird, I never claimed that it would change the original
13:49:01 <ehird> If not, well of course there's no save as button.
13:49:07 <AnMaster> ehird, yes it was
13:49:12 <ehird> Shrug.
13:50:30 <AnMaster> mist goes a bit too far I think, still possibly better than clearlooks, though the default icon theme with mist is quite horrible
13:50:52 <ehird> AnMaster: It's the Clearlooks icon theme...
13:51:14 <AnMaster> ehird, no it is blue theme instead of gray?
13:51:16 <ehird> So I guess you were using Custom, not Clearlooks. :P
13:51:21 <ehird> AnMaster: Clearlooks' icons are not gray.
13:51:25 <AnMaster> even looking at the clearlooks entry
13:51:35 <ehird> Exact same icons.
13:51:45 <ehird> I can prove it, too: customise Mist, select Icons.
13:51:49 <ehird> Oh, huh.
13:51:53 <ehird> Weird.
13:52:06 <ehird> Most of Mist's icons are the same as to Clearlooks', though.
13:52:10 <ehird> *as Clearlooks'
13:52:17 <ehird> And they're definitely blue.
13:52:36 <AnMaster> if you look at the main theme page there is preview. Compare mist icon theme (blue folder in preview) to the clearlooks, which is more gray
13:52:45 <AnMaster> blue tinted gray yes
13:53:27 <ehird> The Clearlooks icon theme is simply the official GNOME theme.
13:53:35 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm aware of that.
13:53:39 <ehird> Yes, folders are green.
13:53:43 <ehird> But toolbar icons are *blue*.
13:53:51 <AnMaster> eh? Green where?
13:54:09 <AnMaster> gray with a slight hint of blue or maybe display sucks
13:55:19 <ehird> http://imgur.com/KiYub.png
13:55:22 <ehird> Grayish green.
13:55:24 <ehird> Dull green, whatever.
13:55:49 <ehird> If that looks blue to you, I am *so* getting the IPS screen.
13:55:59 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on what monitor I bring it up on
13:56:15 <AnMaster> it is more greenish on desktop than on laptop
13:56:16 <ehird> Which is blue?
13:56:19 <ehird> Heh.
13:56:38 <AnMaster> ehird, it is quite a neutral grey on laptop, the blue tint is very very slight
13:58:53 <AnMaster> ehird, oh and with the colours that icon has on the desktop I couldn't live with it. On the laptop it turns out quite acceptable though
13:59:14 <AnMaster> kind of ironic since assuming you are still on that mac the greenish tint is probably more correct
13:59:29 <ehird> Yes, it is. It also looks green on the shitty 2006 TN LCD.
13:59:43 <ehird> Which makes even mid grey indistinguishable from white.
13:59:57 <ehird> So wow, either your laptop just has really shitty viewing angles, or its display is uber-terrible.
14:00:08 <ehird> Hey, fading on hover over the OSD notifications works now.
14:00:10 <ehird> Weirdo.
14:00:12 <AnMaster> gimp colour picker places it at around #bfc0ac
14:00:21 <ehird> Oh, of course; enabling Normal effects to turn on Compiz must enable that too.
14:00:25 <AnMaster> which is more of a slightly yellow/green tint
14:00:57 <ehird> I see no yellow at all.
14:01:09 <ehird> Well, okay, a tiny bit.
14:01:39 <AnMaster> r=191, g=192, b=172
14:01:52 <AnMaster> that wound quite a lot more yellow than green as far as I can work out
14:02:25 <AnMaster> ehird, in fact it is more yellow-green on desktop than green I'd say
14:02:50 <AnMaster> approaching beige I think
14:03:04 <AnMaster> well, dark beige
14:03:17 <ehird> "Experts predict that the penultimate catastrophe will occur at approximately 7:15 p.m. Thursday night, when the social networking tool Twitter will be used to communicate a series of ideas so banal they will instantaneously negate the three centuries of the Renaissance."
14:03:19 <ehird> -- http://www.theonion.com/content/news/nadir_of_western_civilization_to?utm_source=a-section
14:03:31 <ehird> (Also featured: The best ending line to an Onion article ever (but don't skip there, it won't make any sense.))
14:09:50 <AnMaster> comparing the colour palette in gimp shown when this colour is selected shows that desktop has more vibrant colours and also differs fastly. There is even a slight hint of bands on the laptop... Makes me suspect some X setting is wrong...
14:10:20 <ehird> Or Lenovo are just making shittier laptops as time goes on. :P
14:10:23 <AnMaster> and the palette is definitely yellowish
14:10:44 <AnMaster> where would I find out colour depth without a xorg.conf...
14:10:56 <ehird> Of what?
14:11:01 <ehird> The display in physical, or settings?
14:11:08 <ehird> It's almost certainly set to 24 or 32 bit; ask GNOME.
14:11:23 <AnMaster> ask gnome where?
14:11:27 <ehird> Huh; System > Preferences -> Display doesn't actually have the colour depth.
14:11:29 <ehird> odd.
14:11:31 <ehird> *Odd
14:11:37 <ehird> Also, apparently my display is "Laptop 20".
14:11:40 <ehird> Not sure how it came to that conclusion.
14:11:52 <AnMaster> ehird, mobile cpu? mobile gpu?
14:12:06 <ehird> Yes, both.
14:12:11 <AnMaster> using internal connection, not external one (at least that is what hardware claims I bet
14:12:12 <AnMaster> )
14:12:28 <AnMaster> seems fairly obvious
14:12:47 <ehird> Still.
14:14:06 <AnMaster> indeed xpdyinfo claims 24 bit depth for both desktop and laptop
14:14:07 <AnMaster> hm
14:14:22 <ehird> *xdpyinfo; that was hard to parse...
14:14:26 <ehird> AnMaster: It'll just be uncalibrated.
14:14:39 <ehird> (But calibration is a bitch IME; I'm no good at telling whether those lines blend in with the background.)
14:14:52 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah probably. Now to find out how to calibrate under ubuntu
14:15:18 <ehird> Add/Remove shows "DisplayCalibrator".
14:15:23 <ehird> I just searched for "calibrate" in All.
14:15:29 <ehird> DisplayCalibrator is a GNUstep application to calibrate the gamma of your display
14:15:32 <ehird> Okay, forget that.
14:15:33 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
14:15:34 <ehird> Use xgamma, then.
14:15:49 <ehird> Since apparently it's a frontend to that. Although there's more to calibrati- I'll just google.
14:15:59 <AnMaster> ehird, xgamma is just a command line too
14:16:03 <AnMaster> tool*
14:16:10 <AnMaster> ehird, and indeed there is more to calibration
14:16:17 <ehird> "[edit] A list of Linux color-managed applications"
14:16:23 <ehird> Mostly graphics applications.
14:16:30 <ehird> tl;dr: Linux ain't gonna calibrate no colours consistently.
14:16:49 <AnMaster> even to basic manual calibration without trying to figure it out fully
14:16:58 <ehird> http://ads.linuxfoundation.org/www/delivery/ai.php?filename=training_ad_v1.jpg&contenttype=jpeg ;; proposal to ban the linux foundation from advertising.
14:17:07 <AnMaster> ehird, well I used an icc profile generated back on windows with gentoo iirc.
14:17:10 <ehird> AND WE DON'T MEAN POPCORN HURRRR GRUNGY LETTERS
14:17:53 <AnMaster> ouch
14:18:31 <ehird> (Who even thinks of "popcorn" when they think kernel? At least anyone who'd ever see that.)
14:19:27 <AnMaster> what has popcorn got to do with the word kernel?
14:19:50 <ehird> ... :|
14:19:54 <ehird> popcorn kernels.
14:20:04 <ehird> http://www.answers.com/kernel
14:20:24 <AnMaster> ehird, kgamma seems like better than nothing
14:20:49 <ehird> Ah, K-naming. Anyone remember when every GNOME app had a g in it (and preferably a gn)
14:20:51 <ehird> s/$/?/
14:20:55 <ehird> That was ridiculous.
14:22:38 <AnMaster> ehird, seems it mainly needs reducing blue a bit to begin with.
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14:23:16 <AnMaster> would need a bit more blue for dark grays though
14:23:19 <ehird> "Anybody mind describing that? I'm blind." -- Linux Hater's Blog comment
14:23:35 <ehird> Well that's a good way to make the comments section feel awkward. Nobody wants to troll right after a blind guy.
14:26:34 <ehird> I wonder if Debian's switched to eglibc yet.
14:26:41 <AnMaster> still far from good really
14:26:41 <ehird> AnMaster: btw, have you joined 600 channels yet?
14:26:49 -!- FireFly has joined.
14:27:17 <AnMaster> ehird, been over it at times, atm below it, 593
14:27:29 <ehird> Do you realise you never look at 90% of those?
14:28:00 <AnMaster> ehird, actually I do. Do you think I'm only chatting in one channel at a time?
14:28:16 <ehird> You're chatting in 593 channels at a time?
14:28:20 <AnMaster> there is a percentage that is low activity, like #opers
14:28:34 <AnMaster> ehird, of course not, but often 3 or 4 at once
14:28:40 <ehird> Not looking at 90% is still looking at 59 channels, which is of course more than you look at.
14:28:42 <AnMaster> and which 3 or 4 changes
14:29:01 <FireFly> Actually
14:29:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Do you realise that there are commands called /join and /part for looking at different sets of channels at different times...?
14:29:05 <AnMaster> ehird, which is just completely nonsense
14:29:12 <FireFly> How many channels are you on at freenode?
14:29:24 <ehird> FireFly: He's in the extended maximum, I believe.
14:29:44 <AnMaster> FireFly, hm let me check. Guess I'll pipe the relevant lines from /whois into wc
14:30:29 <FireFly> [15:30:03] AnMaster is away: sleeping
14:30:32 <AnMaster> 76 if one is to believe wc but I think that is a bit more
14:30:42 <AnMaster> FireFly, typoed command I believe
14:30:44 <ehird> FireFly: Hey, when AnMaster says "night" he doesn't leave either. Give the guy a break, he's just fucking with us.
14:33:36 <AnMaster> well that is slightly less off colours, however the icons look worse. I guess I'll have to retune them to more neutral gray
14:33:40 <AnMaster> grey*
14:33:56 <AnMaster> (and same for desktop bg colour and some other stuff
14:36:12 <ehird> Oh look, ATI released a new Radeon series.
14:36:20 <ehird> "According to AMD, the new Radeon HD 5870 offers 544 double-precision GFLOPS of processing power."
14:36:28 <ehird> I'm so getting four.
14:36:36 <ehird> VROOM VROOM
14:37:37 <AnMaster> ehird, now use those in that helmer 3
14:38:16 <ehird> "and if every cards have 2 TFLOPS, this is 432 TFLOPS"
14:38:23 <ehird> He's using the GTX 295, then.
14:38:27 <ehird> This is just the fastest single GPU card.
14:38:40 <ehird> Well, the GTX 295 doesn't break 2 TFLOPS, I think.
14:38:54 <AnMaster> hm
14:39:01 <ehird> The Nvidia Tesla S870 is 2074 GFLOPS.
14:39:10 <ehird> No, wait.
14:39:11 <AnMaster> gtx 295 has more then I guess
14:39:15 <ehird> That's a "GPU Computing Server"; i.e. a single thing.
14:39:35 <ehird> GTX 295 gets 1788 GFLOPS.
14:39:47 <AnMaster> right, so using the one you mentioned would be worse
14:39:54 <AnMaster> why then sound so excited at it
14:39:58 <ehird> The GTX 295 has TWO GPUs
14:40:01 <ehird> This is ONE GPU.
14:40:03 <AnMaster> oh right
14:40:12 <AnMaster> lets wait for the same but two
14:40:19 <ehird> We'll see a 5870 X2 sometime, probably.
14:40:27 <AnMaster> ehird, why not x4 while we are at it
14:40:39 <ehird> Because people won't pay $2,000 for a gaming card.
14:41:14 <ehird> "If humans tasted like bacon I would kill and eat them so I see no harm." --reddit
14:41:43 <AnMaster> and why are we still going along this design, wouldn't rethinking it and going along similar lines that those raytracers in FPGAs did be better. With the budget of nvidia on that rather than the (relative to nvidia) small research budget...
14:42:15 <ehird> Because FPGAs are slow.
14:42:26 <ehird> Also, that raytracer's FPGA was just a scheduler.
14:42:38 <ehird> The actual tracing was done on an 8-core machine.
14:42:50 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on which one you are thinking about
14:43:08 <ehird> Caustic's.
14:43:15 <AnMaster> ehird, not that one I'm considering
14:43:25 * AnMaster tries to remember the name
14:43:30 <ehird> Sorry for not being telepathic :P
14:44:30 <AnMaster> ehird, http://graphics.cs.uni-sb.de/~woop/rpu/RPU_SIGGRAPH05.pdf
14:44:57 <ehird> 4.6MB? Holy huge PDF batman.
14:44:59 -!- augur has joined.
14:45:18 <AnMaster> ehird, pictures in it. Example renderings
14:45:23 <AnMaster> only 11 pages
14:45:29 <AnMaster> (in total for the pdf)
14:45:43 <ehird> Wish Poppler let you use the host's font settings; I can't really read this badly-kerned, grey-antialiased text.
14:45:49 <AnMaster> and zooming those rendering doesn't look pixelated
14:46:02 <ehird> Argh, and Evince still can't copy text from columns individually (not that I wanted to copy anything).
14:46:07 <ehird> AnMaster: Did I say pixelated?
14:46:08 <ehird> No.
14:46:15 <AnMaster> ehird, not talking about font
14:46:23 <AnMaster> but "why those images are so huge"
14:46:24 <ehird> Oh, the renderings.
14:46:56 <ehird> Yes, they are pixelated.
14:46:56 <ehird> No antialiasing there.
14:47:18 <AnMaster> ehird, um I mean as in you can zoom them and they still look ok due to being stored at high dpi due to being down scaled screenshots but with all the image data still left in there
14:47:29 <ehird> Oh, I zoomed my screen.
14:47:36 <AnMaster> it may take a second or two for poppler to re-render the pic
14:47:40 <AnMaster> after you zoom
14:47:46 <AnMaster> in my experience
14:47:52 <ehird> Indeed, they look good at 30)%.
14:47:54 <ehird> *300%.
14:48:41 <AnMaster> ehird, images in pdf are basically "insert this bitmap here, and make it fit in these dimensions". Thus they can end up like that, high dpi, good zoomable. But damn big pdf
14:49:18 <AnMaster> the technical drawings are mostly vector graphics
15:00:46 <AnMaster> ehird, so what do you think of the RPU?
15:00:54 <ehird> Didn't really read it.
15:01:05 <AnMaster> it is very interesting
15:02:07 <AnMaster> the main issue with the prototype was limited memory bandwidth it seems. They list some suggestions for how to improve that part at the end.
15:02:18 <AnMaster> sounds like it has a great potential
15:06:09 -!- ais523 has joined.
15:06:12 <AnMaster> hi ais523
15:06:16 <ais523> hi
15:06:25 * ais523 arghs at Ubuntu
15:06:30 <AnMaster> ais523, oh why?
15:06:47 <ais523> the suggested fix for the multiple beeps at shutdown problem was "$ echo "blacklist pcspkr" | sudo tee -a /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist.conf"
15:06:54 <ehird> heh
15:06:57 <ais523> presumably in a startup or shutdown script somewhere
15:07:06 <AnMaster> hm
15:07:08 <ehird> erm, or just in general?
15:07:10 <ais523> in other words; don't fix the cause, just tell the kernel to fix the symptoms
15:07:13 <AnMaster> isn't /etc/modprobe.d/blacklist.conf preserved?
15:07:15 <AnMaster> afaik
15:07:20 <ais523> ah, maybe
15:07:25 <ehird> ais523: it's an okay temporary fix, though
15:07:31 <ais523> yes
15:07:32 <ais523> I may use it
15:07:36 <ais523> as I dislike the speaker altogether
15:07:41 <ais523> but it's still ridiculous
15:07:53 <ehird> the Monkey Island II theme was the epitome of PC speaker usage
15:08:04 <ehird> everything afterwards is folly.
15:08:48 <AnMaster> ais523, why not just trace what process make the relevant system call
15:08:52 <AnMaster> and then fix it
15:08:56 <ehird> AnMaster: Because it's the kernel?
15:08:58 <ehird> I assume.
15:09:11 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, I know what process it is
15:09:17 <ais523> it's about 9 or 10 instances of shutdown(8)
15:09:25 <AnMaster> ehird, can still trace it, but unlikely considering where it happens
15:09:28 <ais523> the real problem is, wtf is shutdown running that many times?
15:09:29 <AnMaster> ais523, huh
15:09:45 <ais523> and so far the commenters to the bug seem to have ignored that issue
15:09:49 <AnMaster> ais523, that explains the multiple shut down messages I see. But why is  shutdown beeping at all?
15:09:58 <ehird> ais523: because you reported the noise as the problem, presumably
15:10:02 <ehird> AnMaster: it does that...
15:10:13 <ehird> at least it does on all machines with a PC speaker I've used
15:10:24 <AnMaster> ehird, pretty sure it can be turned off somewhere.
15:10:53 <ehird> (re Monkey Island II theme on a PC speaker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DLoSAb1-bc)
15:11:07 <ais523> AnMaster: shutdown(8) always beeps
15:11:15 <ais523> I'm not sure if it has an option not to
15:11:23 <ais523> if it doesn't, it should probably be added
15:11:26 <ehird> probably an xml config file these days
15:11:43 <AnMaster> ais523, doesn't seem so. Still silent shutdowns would seem like a high priority feature for many notebook users
15:12:03 <AnMaster>   -q, --quiet                 reduce output to errors only
15:12:08 <ehird> Who the hell shuts down a notebook?
15:12:09 <AnMaster> but it still beeps!
15:12:13 <ehird> S3 sleep, dude.
15:12:21 <ais523> ehird: I do, when I update the kernel
15:12:32 <ais523> also, sometimes when I have no processes running, I shut down rather than hibernate
15:12:35 <ais523> because it feels cleaner
15:12:48 <ehird> ais523: when you update the kernel, it shuts down and beeps, okay
15:12:48 <ehird> so
15:12:56 <ehird> you upgrade the kernel in situations where silence is appreciated?
15:13:03 <AnMaster> ehird, depends. Sometimes I do because I have HPET issues. Known regression. Ubuntu ppl doing nothing about it.
15:13:05 <ehird> "I sure am taking notes! As soon as this kernel upgrade finishes."
15:13:08 <ais523> yes, most commonly I do it in a shared computer lab
15:13:12 <ais523> where other people are working
15:13:21 <ehird> I'm sure that short beep will kill them :P
15:13:27 <ais523> well, it's annoying, not fatal
15:13:55 <AnMaster> symptoms: after long uptime (doesn't matter if it has been at S3 sleep in between) the system is going slower and slower unless there are interrupts like from moving the pointer around all the time.
15:14:12 <ehird> AnMaster: affects what?
15:14:17 <ehird> I'll make sure to avoid any such hardware
15:14:54 <AnMaster> ehird, intel mobile chipsets with HPET + dual core cpu
15:15:13 <ehird> Hmm... will that apply to all Core 2 hardware?
15:15:17 <ehird> (With an Intel mobo.)
15:15:28 <ehird> If so, WTF? There's no way that wasn't fixed in a day, that's a huge population of users.
15:16:11 <AnMaster> ehird, yes, but you can workaround it with setting a different clock source than hpet, however that causes other problems, like lots of wakeups because the counter wraps very often or plain just not working
15:16:20 <AnMaster> still, it takes quite a bit for the effect to start showing up
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15:16:36 <ehird> I'd prefer lots of wakeups to sinister slowness.
15:16:41 <AnMaster> and due to the gradual nature it takes an hour or two more before you have to reboot it
15:17:11 <AnMaster> so it starts to set in something like 4-6 hours after boot (sleep not relevant here), depending on load
15:17:11 <ehird> Don't care, I want top performance all the time. :)
15:17:18 <AnMaster> seems to set in faster if the computer runs hotter
15:17:34 <ehird> 4-6 hours of being off or does sleep count add to it? (If so, wtf?)
15:18:03 <AnMaster> ehird, of being on. But sleep doesn't reset the effect as one would guess
15:18:26 <ais523> aargh at IE8
15:18:30 <ais523> stupid not having an "undo close tab"
15:18:39 <ais523> I rely on that Firefox feature so much
15:18:39 <ehird> Firefox didn't have that for a while, I think.
15:18:43 <AnMaster> so what counts is total uptime that isn't in suspend to disk. Suspend to ram: "sometimes it seems to count, sometimes not"
15:18:45 <ehird> Epiphany has it.
15:18:47 <AnMaster> very random bug this :/
15:18:54 <ehird> I think, at least.
15:18:56 <ais523> ehird: I imagine most sane browsers do nowadays
15:19:00 <ais523> actually, is this IE8 or IE7?
15:19:03 <ais523> I don't know how to tell
15:19:13 <ehird> ais523: Uh, look at About.
15:19:17 <ais523> where?
15:19:18 <ehird> It's in that menu. Or the other one.
15:19:20 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway it seems "intel mobile 4 series chipset" is most affected.
15:19:22 <ehird> Try both.
15:19:23 <ais523> recent versions of IE don't have a menu bar
15:19:30 <ehird> Press Alt.
15:19:32 <ehird> They do.
15:19:34 <ehird> It's just hidden.
15:19:39 <ais523> ah. IE7
15:19:41 <AnMaster> though from reading the bug there was people that was much worse affected than me
15:19:47 <ais523> it's behind the little >> icon in the top-right corner of the toolbar
15:19:51 <AnMaster> ehird, alternative is using a kernel older than 2.6.21 iirc
15:19:51 <ehird> IE 7 is pretty bad
15:19:52 <AnMaster> :P
15:20:02 <ehird> AnMaster: Or using the non-precise clock and accepting the wakeups
15:20:40 <ehird> [[With a Linux kernel, you need the newer "rtc-cmos" hardware clock device driver rather than the original "rtc" driver.]]
15:20:47 <ehird> Or does it happen anyway?
15:21:31 <AnMaster> ehird, clocksource=acpi_pm seems to work for me
15:22:14 <ehird> So, in conclusion Linux has a serious bug affecting a massive portion of users with a crippling, invisible-at-first effect and nothing is being done about it.
15:22:20 <ehird> Is it the year of the Linux desktop yet?
15:22:26 <AnMaster> and rtc interface to userspace isn't relevant as far as I could find out. Oh and pretty sure ubuntu uses the new one anyway (messing up alsa in 2.6.28 as a result, fixed in later versions)
15:23:04 <AnMaster> ehird, not all mobile chipset users seems affected. And it was mobile chipset. So yeah year of linux desktop, but not linux laptop
15:23:57 <ehird> Desktops are a dying breed, though.
15:24:20 <AnMaster> ehird, lots of gamers will disagree with that
15:24:40 <ehird> There are beefy gaming weighttops, actually.
15:24:52 <ehird> But yes, it's separating into notebooks, gaming machines and workstations, I think.
15:25:17 <ehird> Long-term.
15:25:44 <AnMaster> ehird, what about tiny pc cases ones? Like found in computer rooms at unis and such. (lab rooms tends to have workstation style computers instead)
15:26:05 <ehird> Probably eliminated in future as every student has a notebook anyway.
15:26:13 <ehird> Alternatively, we'll all regress to Athena and use thin clients!
15:26:18 <ehird> (Note: Not actuall happening.)
15:26:24 <ehird> *actually
15:26:26 <AnMaster> ehird, far from. Maybe 30-40% does as far as I have seen
15:26:46 <ehird> Then I'd say your university is abnormal.
15:26:46 <AnMaster> but yeah in long term maybe
15:27:04 <ehird> But really, I think if you read your university's material it'll say "Get a laptop, dammit".
15:27:35 <AnMaster> ehird, they can't really say that considering the bad wlan coverage in some of the buildings
15:30:48 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway desktop keyboards tends to be nicer to type on, and monitors easier to work at. Are you predicting a future for docking station + monitor + keyboard + mouse?
15:30:54 <AnMaster> or something like that
15:31:29 <ehird> AnMaster: Surprisingly, the general population don't give a shit: they're sitting at horrible 16"-18" Acer laptops with a damn number pad and an uber-glossy 16:9 screen.
15:31:38 <ais523> laptops with a numpad?
15:31:42 <ehird> Or if they are of the budget nature, a 15" without a numpad.
15:31:45 <ehird> ais523: It's the trend nowadays.
15:31:48 <AnMaster> ais523, was wondering too..
15:31:49 <ais523> that's ridiculous
15:31:54 <ehird> Yes, it is.
15:31:55 <AnMaster> ehird, external mouse?
15:32:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Awful trackpad.
15:32:03 <ehird> It is simply the current reality.
15:32:36 <ehird> The hoi polloi love their shitty "media" laptops, and that's enough for future dominance. Desktop machines in offices might last a while longer.
15:32:41 <AnMaster> ehird, at uni btw it seems like dell, hp and acer are most common, a few thinkpads. plus one or two macbooks
15:32:51 <ehird> But fwiw, I don't think my ThinkPad keyboard will be anything but great.
15:33:05 <coppro> :( uber-glossy 16:9 screens
15:33:07 <ehird> At least, I prefer their style to the keyboards I've used. Scissor-switch is great.
15:33:22 <AnMaster> the macs however are all configured to share everything over zeroconf. For some unknown reason
15:33:23 <ehird> AnMaster: The student population is a bit different.
15:33:32 <fizzie> Here's the "advertised on the front page, 'back to school' cheapo-Acer" from the local computer retailer: http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/87052_02.jpg -- it indeed has a numpad there.
15:33:35 <ehird> Also, *everything*?
15:33:46 <AnMaster> ehird, hyperbole
15:33:54 <AnMaster> but stuff like itunes control, printers and what not
15:33:55 <ehird> fizzie: That's EXACTLY the bullshit that's so common.
15:34:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Like, with no password?
15:34:41 <AnMaster> ehird, I never decided to go that far. I only listened passively at the broadcasts
15:34:47 -!- MigoMipo has joined.
15:34:53 <ehird> "Man, this current playing track title is awesome."
15:34:54 <AnMaster> with the client in ubuntu for it
15:35:42 <ehird> It seems the 4:3 notebook is totally dead, anyway.
15:35:54 <ehird> So I'm not really happy about the forthcoming notebook dominance.
15:36:01 <AnMaster> the macbooks all tend to be in those small group rooms (not sure of English term) at least from what I seen walking around.
15:36:13 <ehird> 18" 16:9 heavy uberglossies are in basically all respects inferior to desktops.
15:36:19 <fizzie> Ooh, a Vista laptop with 1 GB (minus whatever you use for graphics) of memory. That sounds like a good configuration.
15:36:31 <ehird> fizzie: 3GB is an oddly popular configuration for cheapies over here
15:36:46 <ehird> Especially when pared with things like 1.7GHz processors that will be slow as shit anyway
15:37:07 <AnMaster> ehird, um. get a large enough notebook with high enough dpi
15:37:14 <AnMaster> like 17" at 130 dpi
15:37:17 <AnMaster> would be awesome
15:37:18 <ais523> 16:9 gives a bigger screen size statistic for the cost of the screen
15:37:25 <ais523> diagonal measurement isn't really a good way to measure...
15:37:26 <ehird> AnMaster: No, it'd be a squintweighttop.
15:37:33 <AnMaster> ais523, why would producing a 16:9 be cheaper??
15:37:42 <ehird> AnMaster: Because it's smaller...
15:37:47 <ehird> ais523: Indeed. 16:9 is also unusable for any purposes other than movie-watching.
15:37:50 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on font settings. If it was a mac it could work
15:37:57 <ehird> AnMaster: No it couldn't?
15:37:59 <ehird> What lead you to that conclusion?
15:38:07 <ais523> AnMaster: because a 16:9 has a smaller area for the same diagonal measurement
15:38:16 <ehird> Macs don't even have a permanent DPI setting without using the command line, and it fucks up the GUI.
15:38:17 <AnMaster> ehird, good dpi handling, vector icons
15:38:25 <AnMaster> hm
15:38:27 <AnMaster> odd
15:38:28 <ehird> Macs also don't use vector icons...
15:38:30 <ais523> ehird: my usual programming setup on my 16:9 is two 80-column emacs panes side by side
15:38:37 <AnMaster> ehird, I though mac laptops were very high dpi?
15:38:39 <ais523> it works quite well for that
15:38:42 <AnMaster> and handled that well
15:38:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Apple claims their engineers found that 100ppi is the perfect size for a screen, or something.
15:38:47 <AnMaster> maybe I misunderstood you
15:38:48 <ehird> AnMaster: No, 120ppi or thereabouts.
15:38:59 <AnMaster> ehird, well yes, so say 120 ppi then
15:39:11 <AnMaster> also how can 100 ppi be perfect *size?
15:39:15 <AnMaster> *size*
15:39:16 <ehird> 1280x800 for 13"; that's ordinary. 1440x900 for 15"; that's ordinary. 1920x1200 for 17"; that's common in the more expensive workstationtops.
15:40:06 <AnMaster> ehird, so if you want a desktop you get a workstation in the future? Doesn't sound too bad except for the price
15:40:23 <ehird> If you want a desktop you should almost certainly buy a good notebook.
15:40:30 <ehird> And plug in a display if you really want to.
15:40:59 <AnMaster> ehird, depends on reasons for desktop. heavy 3D modelling needing FPGAs?
15:41:11 <ehird> AnMaster: Then you don't want a desktop, you want a workstation.
15:41:17 <AnMaster> well yeah
15:41:27 <ehird> So buy one; they're hardly going away.
15:41:39 <AnMaster> ehird, what if I want a mainframe?
15:41:43 <ehird> Buy one?
15:42:15 <ehird> "Video: Intel's four-screen laptop prototype hands-on"
15:42:18 <AnMaster> damn, I was hoping for "I will buy it for your next birthday" or something ;P
15:42:24 <ehird> On the other hand, maybe reconsider buying that workstation.
15:42:33 <ehird> (Admittedly the three other screens are tiny ones above the keyboard.)
15:42:44 <ais523> wow, Windows Live's losses were bigger than their revenue last year
15:42:45 <ehird> (F---- would not be in awe at headline again.)
15:42:46 <AnMaster> that's cheating
15:42:50 <ais523> more than -100% profit!
15:42:58 <ehird> 4. -100% profit!
15:43:00 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode.").
15:43:07 * ehird explodes
15:43:12 <ehird> I wish he'd stop doing that.
15:43:14 <AnMaster> F----?
15:43:27 <ehird> A+++++++++++++++, F-------------, you know, eBay ratings.
15:44:18 <ehird> Oh, when I talked about the market splitting up I forgot netbooks.
15:44:36 <ehird> Netbooks being that abominable, ever-changing category of "computer we can build for cheap, or even not so cheap nowadays".
15:46:00 <AnMaster> <ehird> A+++++++++++++++, F-------------, you know, eBay ratings. <-- now I do
15:46:22 <ehird> "A++++++ EXCELLENT SELLER FAST DELIVERY WOULD BUY AGAIN" is a typical eBay feedback without exaggeration.
15:46:49 <ais523> is it more or less sensible than YouTube comments?
15:47:05 <ais523> on average?
15:47:12 <ehird> Uh, it's definitely less varied.
15:47:20 <AnMaster> what does A and F stand for here?
15:47:43 <ehird> Obligatory: http://www.bash.org/?199355
15:47:50 <ehird> AnMaster: US grades; well, I made up the F----- one.
15:47:50 -!- ais523 has quit ("Page closed").
15:47:56 <AnMaster> hm
15:47:58 <ehird> As in, school grades.
15:48:00 <AnMaster> ehird, so it isn't used on there?
15:48:02 <AnMaster> right
15:48:22 <ehird> eBay users would give a glowing review of shitting on somebody's roof if the item ever got there.
15:48:30 <ehird> Erm. I worded that badly.
15:48:36 <ehird> eBay users would give a glowing review of the sller shitting on their roof if the item ever got there.
15:49:32 <AnMaster> why do people still use ebay then if that is the expectation?
15:50:12 <ehird> What?
15:50:18 <ehird> People use eBay to buy and sell things.
15:51:14 <AnMaster> ehird, I mean "<ehird> eBay users would give a glowing review of the sller shitting on their roof if the item ever got there." sound like most of the time the item is never even delivered ?
15:51:14 <ehird> I never said that, did I?
15:51:14 <ehird> You read an awful lot of things into messages.
15:52:02 <AnMaster> well, the logic was that "reason for people to give glowing review just because the item is at some point delivered..." "Hm sounds like expectations are quite low then..." "That seems to indicate that usually things are quite bad"
15:52:21 <ehird> See, that's not what I said at all.
15:52:32 <AnMaster> ehird, then I suggest clarifying what you said
15:52:35 <ehird> What I said implies that eBay users give positive feedback much more than negative or neutral.
15:52:36 <ehird> Nothing else.
15:52:42 <ehird> It was perfectly clear, your brain just took it and ran with it.
15:53:23 <AnMaster> no it wasn't perfectly clear. Maybe it was to you, because you know what you intended. "if the item ever got there" sounds like "usually it doesn't"
15:53:45 <ehird> x_x
15:53:52 <ehird> This is only confusing to you, you know.
15:55:03 <AnMaster> well, I'm the only other person actively talking atm. So yeah. But that means 50% too according to that metric.
15:56:04 <ehird> ITT AnMaster refuses to interpret that as "nobody else here would be confused by that".
15:56:43 <AnMaster> ehird, there is no statistical evidence for either claim atm
15:57:30 <ehird> The only way that sentence could be more obnoxious was if its contents were "[citation needed]" instead.
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16:23:23 <ais523> yay, I'm back
16:27:20 <AnMaster> ais523, wb
16:28:01 <ais523> AnMaster: do you know what might cause CentOS to pick a screen frequency output that the screen can't actually display?
16:28:18 <AnMaster> ais523, why would I know anything about centos
16:28:34 <ais523> I thought you might know enough about Linux distros in general to have an idea
16:28:35 <AnMaster> I have seen it over ssh on servers, and from that it is like fedora but way worse
16:28:53 <AnMaster> ais523, what sort of thing is it selecting then?
16:28:55 <ais523> the computer here in my new office has CentOS and Windows 7 installed
16:28:57 <AnMaster> and maybe wrong modeline?
16:29:17 <ais523> CentOS boots, but you can't see anything on the screen because the screen can't display the video mode it selects (the frequency's too high)
16:29:19 <AnMaster> should probably be auto detected if not explicitly set
16:29:23 <ais523> and Windows 7 only boots in safe mode
16:29:37 <AnMaster> ais523, was it like that from the beginning?!
16:29:41 <ais523> and either way, I can't log on because I don't know my username/password yet
16:29:46 <ais523> AnMaster: that's the state that I've come to the computer in
16:29:50 <ais523> I have no idea what happened to it before
16:29:52 <AnMaster> weird
16:30:08 <AnMaster> ais523, and no clue. try looking at xorg.conf from linux vt
16:30:11 <AnMaster> maybe
16:30:37 <ais523> how?
16:30:42 <ais523> the text mode doesn't display either
16:30:47 <ais523> also, I can't log in
16:31:04 <ais523> (nor change boot parameters to boot in single-user mode)
16:31:49 <AnMaster> ais523, text mode doesn't display? try changing the boot parameters in grub
16:31:56 <AnMaster> hm ok
16:32:04 <ehird> CentOS is like Fedora but way worse? What's wrong with Fedora?
16:32:11 <AnMaster> ais523, can't really help you when you can't access anything on it
16:32:15 <ehird> Besides, CentOS is primarily a server thing, so I don't know why it's on that computer.
16:32:15 <ais523> ehird: you can be worse than something else without the something else being bad
16:32:21 <ais523> ehird: remote management, I imagine
16:32:23 <ehird> ais523: Yes, but the way he said it...
16:32:49 <AnMaster> ehird, I think I mentioned that a few times before, even to the point of you complaining about me mentioning too often
16:32:58 <AnMaster> thus I do not intend to repeat it again
16:33:06 <ehird> ...what are you talking about? Mentioned what?
16:33:21 <AnMaster> ehird, why fedora and RHEL sucks
16:33:49 <ehird> I don't recall conducting some sort of ask-AnMaster-why-Fedora-sucks campaign; you're terribly paranoid about me.
16:33:57 <ehird> fwiw, Linus uses Fedora.
16:34:03 <ais523> AnMaster: you're going to say RPM, aren't you?
16:34:29 <ehird> RPM is bad, but you don't really see it with yum... which is quite annoying but not exactly sucking.
16:34:47 <ehird> ais523: but how misguided to think he'll say anything at all; he's protesting against my evil Fedora questioning campaign.
16:34:47 <ais523> I've never used yum
16:34:50 <ais523> how does it compare to apt?
16:35:04 <ehird> yum is fairly average. I remember having a problem with it but don't recall.
16:35:32 <ehird> Still, yum is to rpm what apt is to dpkg, and only rpm actually sucks.
16:35:40 <AnMaster> ais523, centos tends to be incredibly outdated and have rather small repos too. In my experience.
16:35:44 <ehird> I don't really care what dpkg is like, so I don't really care what rpm is like with yum.
16:35:53 <ais523> ah, I see
16:36:04 <ehird> AnMaster: I like how you said to without anything about Fedora beforehand, thus your sentence seems to add on to nothing
16:36:20 <AnMaster> "I like how you said to without anything about Fedora beforehand, thus your sentence seems to add on to nothing"
16:36:22 <AnMaster> grammar?
16:36:30 <AnMaster> I can't parse it at least
16:36:45 <AnMaster> bbl
16:36:52 <ehird> My grammar was perfectly fine.
16:37:00 <ais523> rather unusual, it took me about 10 seconds to parse
16:37:03 <ehird> *said "to" might make it a bit clearer.
16:37:11 <ehird> I didn't realise I omitted the quotes.
16:37:15 <ehird> With the quotes it's a perfectly sundry sentence.
16:37:43 <ais523> hmm... nobody seems to be reading the Enigma forums any more
16:37:53 <ais523> Warrigal: you used to be really active there
16:38:04 <ehird> That sounds bad.
16:38:05 <AnMaster> <ehird> With the quotes it's a perfectly sundry sentence. <-- yes indeed
16:38:09 <ehird> It uses disk space and bandwidth!
16:38:20 <ehird> He's obviously been told to be more tight-lipped.
16:39:13 <ehird> what amuses me is that a free forum host would be simply superior to the current Enigma forums (faster, much more bandwidth and database space, perhaps even easier to keep despammed)
16:39:36 <ehird> oh, and cheaper ofc
16:40:44 <ais523> on the other hand, Enigma itself seems to be actively developed; there are hundreds of repo changes since 2 days ago
16:41:23 <ehird> hundreds?
16:41:31 <ehird> that sounds *over*developed
16:41:41 <ehird> " Since Enigma 0.92 the current Enigma team is focussing the development on independent, new and state of art features. Compatibility issues are out of focus."
16:41:44 <ehird> *"S
16:41:55 <ehird> I read that with compatibility=platform compatibility
16:41:58 <ehird> and was scratching my head...
16:42:22 <ais523> ehird: many of them are things like art changes
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16:42:35 <ehird> still, you can't do hundreds of changes of work in two days
16:42:38 <ais523> and no, it's compatibility with past games like Esprit and Oxyd they mean
16:42:48 <ais523> and hundreds of changes is easy, IMO
16:42:53 <ais523> as long as they're small and scattered
16:43:02 <ehird> way too small...
16:43:10 <ais523> it looks like they autoconfiscated it
16:43:15 <ais523> or at least upgraded the autoconf
16:43:19 <ais523> and that's probably done lots of changes automatically
16:43:49 <ehird> it used autoconf before (nice verb there btw)
16:44:01 <ehird> gonna have to use that one
16:44:17 <ais523> ehird: "autoconfiscate" is standard, IIRC
16:44:29 <ehird> it wasn't a pun on autoconf + confiscate?
16:44:31 <ehird> aww
16:44:48 <ehird> "i do not consider
16:44:48 <ehird> myself a professional player and i seriously doubt there are any 'professional' players
16:44:48 <ehird> who play enigma and make money by playing enigma." --illmind, aka captain obvious
16:45:14 <ais523> oh, looks like it's in the Jargon File: http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/A/autoconfiscate.html
16:45:27 <Deewiant> t
16:45:31 <Deewiant> -t
16:45:45 <ehird> ais523: esr likely made it up one day, then
16:46:05 <ais523> yes, probably
16:46:05 <ehird>  http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/A/autobogotiphobia.html ;; he definitely made the preceding entry up
16:46:11 <ehird> s/^ //
16:46:20 <ais523> but just being published there probably made more people inclined to use it
16:46:22 <ehird> I'd check the original File, but it predates the woeful time of autoconf.
16:46:39 <ehird> [[ Automatically, but in a way that, for some reason (typically because it is too complicated, or too ugly, or perhaps even too trivial), the speaker doesn't feel like explaining to you. See magic. “The C-INTERCAL compiler generates C, then automagically invokes cc(1)  to produce an executable.”]]
16:46:44 <ehird> First thought: Hey, a C-INTERCAL shoutout.
16:46:51 <ehird> Second thought: Oh wait, he's fellating his own ego.
16:47:11 <ais523> that's a stupid method of automagically
16:47:16 <ais523> it was much more fun making it work on DOS
16:47:23 <ehird> Yes, exec() is very magical.
16:47:25 <ais523> needed info here is that DOS has a 127-character limit on command lines
16:47:32 <ehird> s/^\[\[ /[[/
16:47:35 <ais523> so in the end, I ended up with a wrapper shellscript
16:48:00 <ais523> (the DOS version of gcc accepts @filename.txt to specify arguments via a file rather than the command line)
16:48:18 * ehird installs enigma
16:48:30 <ais523> which version?
16:49:02 <ais523> hmm... what do you call something which is an alpha in terms of feature-completeness, but where the developers made efforts to package it for general usage?
16:49:13 <ais523> and therefore is sort-of like an RC, but based on an alpha rather than something you plan to release?
16:49:18 <ehird> Wasted.
16:50:27 <ehird> "Intel announces 22nm chips for 2011"
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16:57:13 <ehird> hi
16:57:19 <ais523> hi
16:57:24 <ehird> hi
16:58:15 <ais523> hi
16:58:23 <ehird> hi
16:59:03 <ehird> "Mozilla has announced that it plans to bring Office 2007's Ribbon interface to Firefox"
16:59:05 <ehird> that is so not appropriate
16:59:49 <ais523> ehird: the title's just lying
16:59:54 <ehird> good
17:00:00 <ais523> someone drew a ribbon on Firefox as a mockup of what it would look like
17:00:03 <ais523> and the picture was misinterpreted
17:00:06 <ais523> it's just an idea atm
17:00:06 <ehird> >_<
17:00:10 <ais523> and not all ideas go everywhere
17:00:19 <ehird> link to it anyway?
17:01:01 <ais523> I don't have the link, I'm just going by the comments on that reddit article
17:01:11 <ais523> you could get the link more easily than me, therefore
17:01:20 <ais523> because presumably you have the article open
17:01:27 <ehird> Yes. It has no such thing.
17:02:34 <ais523> ah
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17:15:50 <ais523> hi oerjan
17:16:04 <oerjan> hello ais523
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17:21:24 * Warrigal looks up and sees a streak of over four hours of nothing but AnMaster plus four lines.
17:21:52 <ehird> you're ignoring ais523 too?
17:22:08 <AnMaster> Warrigal, you are ignoring ais as well as ehird I gather?
17:22:20 <AnMaster> oerjan, iwc
17:22:20 <ehird> I'm trying to figure out how on earth ais523 is objectionable enough to ignore.
17:22:27 <Warrigal> That streak ends before ais begins talking.
17:22:33 <AnMaster> ah hm
17:22:37 <AnMaster> ok that explains it
17:23:08 <oerjan> ehird: must be the condescending elitist manner of perfection
17:23:23 <ehird> ais523 has one of those? :P
17:24:02 <oerjan> he's _earned money_ on esoteric work dammit
17:24:15 <ehird> well yes, that's quite upsetting.
17:27:35 <oerjan> AnMaster: steve's insurance cannot be cheap
17:27:47 <AnMaster> oerjan, true
17:28:05 <ehird> I'd imagine he's not very endangered inside a coffin
17:28:48 <oerjan> i wouldn't bet on that
17:29:00 <oerjan> it's steve after all
17:29:25 <ehird> bad movie idea: the stingray... is back... FOR ANOTHER BITE
17:29:26 <ehird> Irwin
17:29:30 <ehird> Summer 2011
17:30:47 <oerjan> not the same steve.  dmm's proof: their wives spell their names differently
17:31:10 <ehird> how can you spell steve irwin differently?
17:31:16 <ehird> or am I missing a joke..
17:31:19 <ehird> *joke...
17:31:20 <oerjan> the wives' name
17:31:23 <oerjan> *s
17:31:56 <oerjan> terry/terri
17:32:02 <ehird> o
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18:23:03 <impomatic> Hi :-)
18:30:12 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed").
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18:31:11 <ehird> hi impomatic
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18:41:25 <impomatic> Hi Ehird :-)
18:41:31 <ehird> hi impomatic
18:44:41 <impomatic> Hi Ehird :-)
18:44:48 <ehird> Stack overflow
18:45:52 <impomatic> Pointer error
18:46:27 <Ilari> Bus Error
18:47:07 <ehird> Car error
18:50:15 <impomatic> Some websites give some weird errors. E.g. the fail whale and fail banana. Or "Something's broken, why don't you go out to play for a while"
18:51:21 <ehird> The best error page is one that causes your browser to segfault.
18:51:26 <ehird> Be a man and stop clicking broken links.
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19:08:14 <impomatic> I never click broken links. I navigate by hacking URLs
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19:22:50 <Gracenotes> ugh. I tried clam chowder soup today. I try it every couple of months to see if I like it. Every time the answer is "fuck no", and I throw out half of it. (the other half I spend thinking of those poor clams)
19:23:07 <Gracenotes> clam chowder, why do you seduce me so :(
19:23:21 <pikhq> I suspect you are getting bad clam chowder.
19:23:31 <pikhq> Since clam chowder is delicious.
19:24:25 <Gracenotes> I have tried clam chowder from various sources. I say, meh.
19:24:48 <pikhq> Very well then.
19:25:12 <pikhq> Perhaps you should stick to other delicious things, such as delicious, delicious curry.
19:25:37 <ehird> Or antimatter.
19:25:37 <Gracenotes> -howard
19:26:12 <Gracenotes> curry is pretty nice.
19:26:35 * pikhq may need to make some curry tonight.
19:27:41 <ehird> You know, the main horrific thing about GLib is its class definition.
19:27:47 <pikhq> Agreed.
19:27:47 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/GObject_example.png ;; awful
19:28:01 <ehird> Seriously, that's basically the same as:
19:28:07 <ehird> """The size of the file in bytes, or zero."""
19:28:09 <ehird> file_size = 0
19:28:17 <ehird> Or if we want to be more typed:
19:28:29 <ehird> /** The size of the file in bytes, or zero. */
19:28:34 <ehird> uint64 file_size = 0;
19:29:00 <ehird> ensure(>= 0, < UINT64_MAX);
19:29:18 <pikhq> When your object system is more painful than C++'s, you fail at objects forever.
19:29:32 <ehird> pikhq: The object *system* is fine, just not the interface.
19:29:39 <pikhq> ehird: ... Right.
19:29:43 <pikhq> Totally what I meant to say.
19:29:51 <ehird> I detect sarcasm.
19:30:09 <pikhq> There is none that I meant.
19:30:12 <ehird> Alright.
19:30:21 <ehird> Proof that GObject doesn't have to be horrible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vala_(programming_language)
19:31:49 <pikhq> Writing GObject in C is about as awful as writing C++ classes in C would be.
19:34:51 <pikhq> Hmm. Vala seems nice, though.
19:37:52 <ehird> Yah. 'S what I'ma write my IRC client in.
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19:38:24 <ehird> Whoopsie.
19:39:05 <pikhq> I suggest that GNOME kill C in favor of Vala. It seems to make GTK a sane and reasonable library...
19:39:24 <ehird> For the applications, agreed. Although C# with Gtk# is becoming popular.
19:39:46 <ehird> For GObject libraries, C is probably better since you have seemingly more direct control over the object system itself, I think.
19:39:50 <ehird> Although I'm not sure.
19:39:54 <pikhq> Well, yeah.
19:40:07 <pikhq> C is obviously going to be seeing use at least in parts of the libraries.
19:40:11 <ehird> Vala is a little unstable; releases seem to happen very often.
19:40:46 <ehird> pikhq: And the reference counting is a downside in some cases.
19:41:55 <ehird> Making this a GNOME app and library is killing me; so hard to resist the urge to start coding on the backend and read the Gnome HIG and design an interface instead. :)
20:22:22 <ehird> http://slashdot.org/pollBooth.pl?qid=1857&aid=-1
20:22:27 <ehird> CowboyNeal
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23:26:42 <oerjan> <Gracenotes> ugh. I tried clam chowder soup today. I try it every couple of months to see if I like it. Every time the answer is "fuck no", and I throw out half of it. (the other half I spend thinking of those poor clams)
23:26:52 <oerjan> i think i see your problem there.
23:27:00 <oerjan> hint: it's in the second sentence.
23:27:50 <Gracenotes> you never know. I didn't like mushrooms too much until I had them buried in Chinese food sauce
23:29:31 <Gracenotes> your emphasis is well-placed, however
23:31:18 <Ilari> If some food tastes bad, check that it has enough fat in it. Fat tastes good. But OTOH, High-Fat High-Carbohydrate food probably isn't very healthy...
23:33:40 <oerjan> i'm not sure they breed clams for leanness, but you never know...
23:34:53 <ehird> Ilari: that's a rather odd formula; are you suggesting fat = taste? :P
23:35:07 <oerjan> this year there was an article in a norwegian newspaper that our lambs are now so lean that the national dish (sheep in cabbage) is getting tasteless
23:35:26 <Ilari> Well, Butter, olive oil or coconut oil is good way to add fats if you aren't sure...
23:35:57 <ehird> Bacon's probably the best way to add fat, because you also add bacon.
23:35:58 <oerjan> otoh given the special taste of sheep fat, some suggested that may not be all bad for its popularity...
23:36:54 <Ilari> Also, Lard...
23:38:19 <oerjan> Ilari: you need to work on your english articles.  and i say that only because your english otherwise seems perfect to me.
23:39:39 <ehird> it's too perfect. Ilari is clearly unamerican and therefore a terrorist.
23:40:39 <oerjan> possibly, possibly...
23:41:01 <ehird> he hasn't denied it, it must be true.
23:41:09 <Ilari> Hah...
23:41:35 <oerjan> but a terrorist _would_ deny it.  until after the bomb.
23:42:03 <Ilari> ... Or something else very nasty. :->
23:42:13 <ehird> Ilari: i'm scared now
23:42:20 <ehird> what, exactly, is this nasty thing
23:42:30 <oerjan> bombs, planes, crab infestation...
23:42:37 <oerjan> the possibilities are endless
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23:46:27 <Ilari> Or a certain reassortment between H1N1 and HPAI A/H5N1 ("Bird flu"). Probably that combination either produces nonviable virus or something Nasty^(N+1).
23:47:17 <ehird> Ilari: you know, please don't do that, kay?
23:47:20 <ehird> thx.
23:47:26 <Ilari> No idea which, IIRC, nobody has tried and nobody with resources to do it is crazy enough to try
23:48:24 <oerjan> most terrorists probably don't want to hit their _own_ population too hard
23:50:18 <oerjan> hm reassortments of influenza switch between 8 parts, don't they.  so you only have to try 254 combinations.
23:50:54 <Ilari> Some combinations are more likely to produce something REALLY Nasty if they happen to work.
23:51:56 <oerjan> assuming the part that makes H1N1 really infective isn't the same part as what makes H5N1 really deadly
23:52:09 <ehird> Ilari: either you learn really fast, or have way too much time on your hands :)
23:53:13 <oerjan> or possibly he reads news.  it's not like this stuff wasn't plastered everywhere a few months ago
23:53:45 <ehird> did the news talk about mixing flus for great evil?
23:54:24 <oerjan> yes, albeit by accident
23:55:20 <Ilari> Influenza is too unstable to be usable as (non-doomsday) biological weapon...
23:55:53 <oerjan> so, basically only north korea will have developed this stuff
23:57:27 <Ilari> And if one wants to make doomsday biological weapon out of influenza, wonder if some immune system exploit could be spiced in. Would likely really pump up the CFR...
23:58:21 <oerjan> the council of foreign relations? possibly.
23:58:36 <oerjan> *on
23:58:39 <Ilari> Good such exploit and resistance to main antivirals -> ~100% CFR.
23:59:08 <ehird> he's using acronyms I don't understand, I conclude that this sstuff isn't from the news :P
23:59:19 <Ilari> CFR => Case Fatality Rate.
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23:59:44 <oerjan> ehird: i was nearly about to apply a case of fatal swatting there
23:59:49 <ehird> *stuff
23:59:51 <ehird> oerjan: :(
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23:59:54 <ehird> oh wait to Ilari?