00:06:54 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:19:38 . 00:24:13 -!- coppro has joined. 00:34:38 -!- augur has joined. 00:35:25 e 00:43:06 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 00:48:21 -!- ehird has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:48:21 -!- ehird_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:48:34 -!- ehird has joined. 00:52:12 http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/172774/dell_adds_wireless_battery_charging_to_new_laptop.html 01:01:16 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 01:01:36 * Rugxulo is brewing up his second ETA program (long), still only does simple text output, heh (trying to be poetic) 01:02:04 popt 01:02:18 ? 01:02:22 quite 01:02:49 Stupid Sgeo project of the day: Translate the Haskell Prelude into Python 01:03:11 Sgeo: impossible. 01:03:15 Only via greenspunning. 01:03:19 Well, as much as possible 01:03:26 You mean the useless, trivial functions? 01:03:31 And the ones Python already has? 01:03:39 Python has foldr? 01:03:47 Yes. 01:03:49 It's called reduce. 01:04:06 -!- augur has joined. 01:04:13 (I'm not sure whether it's foldl/foldr but outside of Haskell that rarely matters.) 01:04:55 Incidentally, I don't see how useless/useful matters. I'm not trying to make anything useful. 01:04:59 I'm just bored 01:05:50 By useless, I mean things as pointless as (what will turn into) succ x = x+1. 01:06:03 Sgeo, if you're bored, take a look at ETA 01:06:09 The rest is either impossible without basically implementing Haskell in Python, or is already in Python. 01:06:20 Doing such a pointless thing can't possibly relieve any boredom... 01:06:22 http://www.miketaylor.org.uk/tech/eta/doc/index.html 01:06:26 Rugxulo: have you played with bf joust? 01:06:34 no 01:06:41 you might like it 01:06:52 * Rugxulo still wants to finish his ETA proggie ... 01:07:08 too many N's :-P 01:07:21 Rugxulo, ETA? 01:07:24 (http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust; we use egojoust) 01:07:43 ya, ETA 01:07:45 also, I came up with the two modifications to ais523's rules to make it fairer, nyah :P 01:07:50 Rugxulo, linky? 01:08:38 see above 01:08:38 he linked. 01:09:02 http://www.miketaylor.org.uk/tech/eta/doc/index.html 01:09:33 basically it's eight instructions, also doubling as numbers, and it's not a Brainf*** clone 01:09:41 "ETAOINSH" 01:09:48 quite goofy ;-) 01:14:04 Should I download XEmacs or GNU Emacs? 01:14:08 GNU 01:14:12 Neither. 01:14:27 lots of updates lately, 23.1 was just released like two months ago, internal Unicode now 01:14:32 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 01:14:35 But XEmacs; both because of jwz and since it sucks more, you'll be less likely to bug us about using it since you'll give up. 01:14:59 jwz? 01:15:05 Jamie Zawinski 01:15:05 Oh 01:15:14 Also, last I recall it *doesn't* include the GNU Manifesto, which is a huge plus. 01:15:59 ehird's just convinced me to go with GNU 01:16:12 Unless "it sucks more" was sarcastic? 01:16:17 Also, updates++ 01:16:23 Congratulations, you get to use the editor equivalent of something that sucks. 01:16:33 Are there significant keybinding differences? 01:16:36 I will not supply the mandatory rusty fork for your eyeballs. 01:16:36 just try it and see 01:16:47 doesn't matter, you can rebind it ;-) 01:16:54 Rugxulo, too lazy 01:17:08 Personally I think the best Emacs variant is vim, since you're determined to learn one or the other through whatever deluded ideas from idiots with beards passed through your head. 01:17:18 even different versions of GNU differ on a few keycodes 01:17:20 Shut up, I am *not* cynical and bitter. 01:17:40 viper ftw! ;-) 01:17:44 Does nano have SQL syntax hilighting? 01:17:49 Stop imagining me with wispy grey hair drinking wiskey and slamming keys into a Model M. I AM NOT THAT PERSON. 01:17:55 no idea (but it does support hilighting now) 01:18:08 Gee, he goes straight from XEmacs to nano. A veritable bonanza of suck. 01:18:16 *whiskey, also. 01:18:24 ehird, I'm currently using nano for school 01:18:28 yeah, Nano ain't exactly in the same league, unless you just want a very simple editor 01:18:41 I'd be all yay, minimalism but nano is kinda poor. 01:18:59 Sgeo, you on Linux i presume? 01:19:02 Sgeo: Man up and install GVim, it's more elegant and you get to have buttons to click if that's your thing. 01:19:04 Rugxulo: Windows. 01:19:18 Well, I have to connect to the school's Linux computer through SSH 01:19:22 Because he has some sort of crack-esque addiction to games that don't run in a VM, and dual-booting takes like 5 years, from what I gather. 01:19:27 Sgeo: Using an editor over ssh? 01:19:28 Niice. 01:19:31 The lag will be delicious. 01:19:35 Well, Emacs isn't an option. 01:19:35 try TDE (DOS or Win32), it can be compiled for Linux too w/ Ncurses dev: 01:19:39 Over SSH it's piss-poor. 01:19:41 http://adoxa.110mb.com 01:19:53 ehird, it works quite well, when I was trying it 01:20:00 It really doesn't. 01:20:56 Wow, what a tough choice. ehird, who I usually believe, or my own personal experience. 01:21:06 Mwahaha. 01:21:10 I will toy with your pony mind. 01:21:12 ... 01:21:13 puny. 01:21:16 But, also pony I guess. 01:21:29 www.texteditors.org (if you want options) 01:21:53 I'll just go ahead and spoil that every text editor sucks really, really badly. 01:22:00 Except perhaps acme. 01:22:06 Which merely sucks. 01:22:14 Rabble rabble rabble. 01:22:51 brb 01:22:52 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 01:23:04 -!- ehird has joined. 01:23:05 * Rugxulo is in GNU Emacs right now, BTW, using ERC 01:23:29 yet I'm also using TDE (my typical favorite editor by habit) 01:24:50 Heh, 80/2phi ~= 25, so 80x24 is quite close to an appealing size. 01:25:29 and yet that's what most people hate about Befunge93 01:25:39 Well, it is sort of limiting. 01:25:39 * Rugxulo thinks VIC-20 programmers should feel at home, heh 01:26:03 no worse than no fork(), file I/O, random stack access, etc. :-) 01:26:07 but simplicity is a virtue 01:26:20 * ehird notes that GVim's toolbar is worse than useless. 01:26:30 it's true, Emacs is probably too much of everything (same with Nethack), but hey, they're good enough 01:26:42 Gotta wonder why they bother. 01:27:19 no worse than a toolbar in Emacs (heh) 01:27:26 That one is also terrible. 01:27:32 But the Emacs menus are the real sin. 01:28:40 * Rugxulo actually thought the whole "using a free software vi isn't a sin but merely a penance" was funny ;-) 01:29:03 maybe I should just declare a hiatus from sanity and use some fucked-up crazy fun weird-ass editor like http://software.jessies.org/evergreen/ and just blind everyone with my superior unconventionality 01:29:25 I wonder if it does Haskell. 01:29:29 VIM is good too, just there doesn't have to be only "one true editor (tm)" 01:30:30 but seriously, try TDE, it's quite nice 01:30:38 not overkill at all 01:30:44 It looks like it has ncurses menus. 01:30:51 Well, ncurses-similar. 01:30:53 That sort of thing. 01:30:57 it uses Ncurses only on Linux 01:31:08 And it has menus, right. 01:31:20 yes, menus (which you don't have to use, has keyboard shortcuts too) 01:31:35 Yes, but it means it'll be a typical DOS Borland-style program. :P 01:31:54 I'd say the closest Unix-based analog of that type of program is JED. 01:31:57 not really, it's better than typical Borland stuff 01:31:59 http://www.jedsoft.org/jed/ 01:32:02 (Unix-originating that is) 01:32:05 I've tried JED, it's very good 01:32:07 Rugxulo: I mean in UI design 01:32:29 http://www.jedsoft.org/images/jed1.png is just a funny image. 01:32:31 honestly, I could be wrong, don't know the history, but I *think* texteditors.org says TDE is a IBM E clone (or similar) 01:32:48 We have this graphical environment, not unbelievably awful, with a program that emulates an ancient CRT terminal from way back including control code.s 01:33:01 *codes. 01:33:14 And a modern GUI-based program, showhorned to use these control codes to draw ugly, low-resolution widgets with terrible mouse support. 01:33:26 And... people prefer this over using the damn upper GUI layer... why? 01:33:33 ncurses is just so bizarre. 01:33:36 GUI is teh overrated 01:33:45 that's what I'm saying, look at http://www.jedsoft.org/images/jed1.png 01:33:46 that is a GUI 01:33:57 I don't care if it uses a |_ character instead of pushing pixels 01:33:58 TUI 01:34:08 It's a GUI on an antiquated display with terrible input mechanisms 01:34:29 There is no difference in the actual UI at all from a GUI, and the actual program merely integrates with the environment worse, looks uglier, and has inferior mouse support 01:34:43 JED has very good mouse support, better than most 01:34:56 My other points stand. 01:34:58 but I don't think looks matter much (at least, not to me) 01:35:06 as long as it works, good! 01:35:43 Yes, but the point is that it has no ADVANTAGES, only a crazy insanity of layers upon 70s-originating layers emulating the present, and that is simply bizarre. 01:36:16 so everything should be X-only? (I hope not!) 01:37:36 Justify that. Justify how a JED-style GUI (don't say it's not a GUI, those are graphical widgets it's drawing, onto a low-resolution, low-colour display built entirely out of an emulation of 70s constructs) is any better than an X GUI. Why are these layers better? What do we gain over not requiring X, other than satisfying people who prefer the crazy 70s-based crippled ncurses graphical layer over the 80s-based at-least-slightly-modern X11? 01:37:41 It isn't. 01:38:11 not requiring X means you don't need X installed, don't need a suitable graphics driver, etc. 01:38:22 are you running X at the moment? 01:38:31 no, Windows ;-) 01:39:26 like 90% of linux desktops run X, and the rest are crazy irrational oboes^Whobos. 01:39:29 if you have a framebuffer you can run X for chrissakes 01:39:32 not having X installed - uh 01:39:37 you need ncurses installed for ncurses programs 01:39:38 same damn thing 01:39:48 not if you link statically ;-) 01:39:53 two GUI layers, one crippled and based on ancient technology, one not the first and the latter has been patche dup 01:39:55 *patched up 01:40:02 you could include X with your program too, and it'd be just as stupid 01:40:13 and a lot bigger :-P 01:40:24 yah, like a whole 100 megs. 01:40:36 a suitable graphics driver, as i said, anything that can run a framebuffer can run X, and anything that can't run a framebuffer is going to be quite painful 01:41:47 anyway 01:41:49 let's buy norway 01:42:53 with bf joust warriors 01:43:20 * Rugxulo is still hacking away at the ETA program / prose 01:46:48 * Rugxulo probably went about this the wrong way 01:47:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:56:26 * Rugxulo wonders if anybody wants to even read this sucker when done :-/ 01:57:05 probably not :P 01:58:08 is there a pastebin I can post my WIP at? 01:58:15 c'mon, humor me! ;-) 01:58:54 sure, pastebin.ca or something 01:59:40 okay, now here's the "backstory" so you understand it ;-)) 01:59:41 http://www.osnews.com/comments/22225 02:00:24 de icaza is a wonderful name for someone to call a traitor 02:00:26 so spanish piratey 02:01:20 * ehird starts Evergreen. OH GOD JAVA TEXT RENDERING MAKE IT STOP MAKE IT STOOOOOOOOOP 02:01:28 http://pastebin.ca/1585217 02:01:36 Fuck fuck OW my EYES 02:01:44 * Rugxulo doesn't even know how to pronounce it 02:01:55 I always read either Ikaza or Izaka :-P 02:02:20 ehird, seriously? :-P 02:02:28 Seriously. 02:02:40 this is meant to be a valid ETA program, but all it really does it print a silly joke 02:02:56 as you can tell, some words ain't fleshed out yet 02:03:09 impressive 02:03:21 not really, but goofy? heck yes! :-D 02:06:24 it basically prints this (hope this isn't considered flooding): 02:06:38 u no steal rms code 02:06:45 u share code else rms get mad 02:06:50 u no like rms angry 02:06:57 rms now go eat fungal toe 02:07:30 Im...pressive. 02:07:38 Don't talk to me about silly jokes 02:07:40 >.> 02:08:02 * ehird tries using IcedTea (and thus GNU Classpath) instead of the java jvm for font rendering 02:08:21 Bonus: Appears to predate their awful subpixel crap 02:08:23 Bonus: Free 02:08:34 Downside: Still ugly 02:09:00 Sgeo, ?? 02:09:14 M I C 02:09:17 K E Y 02:09:23 I'm not going to finish 02:09:32 what's your point? 02:09:35 * Rugxulo confused 02:09:39 ehird knows 02:09:40 Ignore Sgeo, he's on crack. 02:09:48 (Note: This is good life advice always.) 02:09:55 or worse ... fungal toe! :-D 02:10:16 Oh wait, wrong starting 02:10:18 Still, http://trac2.assembla.com/psox/browser/trunk/impl/psox/db_utils.py 02:10:19 Ignore ehird, he's ehird. Also good life advice. 02:10:25 Sgeo is like my sidekick that I just abuse and never helps me with anything and I just, like, solve the case and get all the chicks and then stomp on his head a bit for good measure and he keeps running around like a doofus 02:10:29 Something like that 02:10:36 coppro: Oh burn. 02:10:39 I'm going to go cut myself now. 02:12:27 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:12:48 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Remote closed the connection). 02:32:29 * Rugxulo is still seeing the same Vista bugs, so it's (badly) ironic that 7 is coming out soon 02:37:51 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host)). 02:40:13 * Rugxulo is dumb, what is a NAT? 02:41:04 Network Address Translation 02:41:34 Several computers behind one router. When a computer makes a request, it's sent using the router's IP. Thus, the individual computers don't have individual IP addresses 02:42:04 The router routes the results of requests properly, but without forwarding, inbound requests make no sense, as there's no IP to request from 02:42:13 so if I say "your NAT murders OE", does it even almost make sense? 02:42:19 What's OE? 02:42:25 Outlook Express :-) 02:42:25 If it's a server, it makes sense 02:42:31 Presumably some protocol that doesn't work over a NAT. 02:42:41 Everything should murder Outlook. 02:42:45 * Rugxulo is still working on the Fungal Toe ETA program 02:42:55 It should be the goal of everyone to murder Outlook and all software like it. 02:43:09 Is Evolution considered Outlook-like? 02:43:27 The property being compared is terriblocity. 02:43:59 * Sgeo hides PSOX 02:52:53 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:52:59 -!- puzzlet has joined. 03:10:49 updated but still not quite done 03:10:50 http://pastebin.ca/1585289 03:12:25 -!- immibis has joined. 03:25:07 -!- immibis has quit ("Download IceChat at www.icechat.net"). 03:38:51 I think I'm basically done 03:39:06 it could still be cleaned up a bit, made to look better, rhyme better, make more sense, etc. 03:39:16 but I think it's more-or-less done :-) 03:40:00 http://pastebin.ca/1585307 03:40:37 someone please read it ;-) 04:02:33 -!- augur has joined. 04:21:46 updated yet again 04:21:51 should be more readable (hopefully) 04:21:52 http://pastebin.ca/1585356 04:26:48 P.S. I guess I should license this under GPLv3, just to be extra hilarious ;-) 04:46:31 last one for the night 04:46:33 http://pastebin.ca/1585395 04:46:39 bye! ;-) 04:46:40 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 04:53:21 -!- lament has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 04:56:43 -!- lament has joined. 06:16:34 -!- Asztal has joined. 06:17:56 bad lag spikes this week 06:20:17 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 06:20:23 bbl 06:59:04 I am now reminded of an awesome shirt I saw last weekend: "Reality is for people who can't handle √-1̅ 06:59:29 ugh, that combining overline fails 07:00:41 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:01:31 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 07:15:03 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 07:53:42 -!- Pthing has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:12:29 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:23:57 coppro: stupid 08:33:12 -!- oerjan has joined. 08:34:50 joke on ai? <-- you need joke explanations now? sad, sad. 08:43:48 -!- Azstal has joined. 09:01:00 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:20:53 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:36:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 09:36:25 -!- ais523 has joined. 09:37:58 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 09:58:48 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 10:48:43 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 11:13:51 -!- adam_d has joined. 11:42:30 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 12:31:08 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:38:12 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Connection timed out). 13:39:54 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 14:20:37 -!- kar8nga has joined. 14:20:41 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:20:52 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 14:38:21 -!- FireFly has joined. 15:09:51 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 15:30:28 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:09:48 -!- ehird has joined. 16:11:58 18:43:09 Is Evolution considered Outlook-like? 16:11:58 Yes. 16:12:04 Evolution is awful, awful, awful and should not be part of GNOME at all. 16:12:32 restarting xchat. 16:12:33 -!- ehird has quit (Client Quit). 16:12:46 -!- ehird has joined. 16:12:53 -gnome 16:26:32 `addquote Evolution is awful, awful, awful 16:26:50 Why does HackBot keep wandering off of FreeNOde... 16:27:35 Because it's called Freenode 16:27:47 Actually it's freenode, but it's definitely not FreeNode or FreeNOde. 16:34:42 i am evil!- and, I have prongs! 16:34:46 fungot 16:34:46 ehird: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends! you are crono. why not? then you should leave quickly! 16:35:03 fungot: can that sword stop alone? 16:35:03 ehird: it's a machine that looks like you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out?! hey! is that for us! the chef's in a snit, trying to get food to the front lines. heard a spell to energize the sword takes immense evil! indeed! this thing. what you have the masamune! 16:35:10 that's not helpful, fungot 16:35:10 ehird: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! 16:35:19 what fungot 16:35:22 i see 16:39:59 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"). 16:40:26 -!- ehird_ has joined. 16:42:27 * ehird_ considers biting the bullet and putting all the shit in ~/.cabal 16:42:29 what have I become. 16:42:34 a traitor to my own package manager. 16:43:09 ehird_, hi there. You used windows 7 right? 16:43:23 yah 16:44:01 I'm trying to install windows 7 pro x64 (aquired through MSDNAA) in virtualbox but it always claim disk drivers are missing. Tried all the three IDE controller settings, SATA and both SCSI settings 16:44:04 any idea what to do? 16:44:17 windows 7 pro doesn't exist. 16:44:23 what is it actually 16:44:41 ehird_, hm sec, laptop booting and I will give you the full product name in a minute or so 16:44:42 anyway, no idea; use something that isn't virtualbox 16:44:47 AnMaster: home premium? 16:44:50 (just home) 16:44:58 eh? 16:45:01 ah 16:45:02 just got home 16:45:06 not just Home (presumably Basic) 16:45:08 lawl 16:45:09 err 16:45:10 as in 16:45:12 right. 16:45:13 home from uni 16:45:15 ... 16:45:19 so laptop is turned off 16:45:20 that home 16:45:44 ehird_, right, resuming from suspend to disk 16:45:55 lolinux 16:47:15 Windows 7 Professional (x64) RTM - DVD (English).iso 16:47:34 ehird_, sure, a figment of MSDNAA's imagination I bet 16:48:00 Well that's new. 16:48:05 " 16:48:05 * Compare 16:48:05 * Starter 16:48:05 * Home Premium 16:48:05 * Professional 16:48:06 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 16:48:08 Home Premium / Pro / Ultimate are the three editions to the best of my knowledge 16:48:08 * Ultimate" 16:48:22 * Professional <-- indeed 16:48:22 Windows 7 will be available in six different editions, but only Home Premium and Professional will be available for retail sale in most countries 16:48:23 Oh, Starter. 16:48:39 ehird_, the ultimate one wasn't available on MSDNAA 16:48:43 AnMaster: Professional is universally better than Home Starter, so that's fine. 16:48:58 No Subsystem for Unix-based Applications, though. Hah! 16:48:59 There is no "Home Starter" 16:49:07 Un...lucky you? 16:49:07 Erm 16:49:08 I meant Home Premium 16:49:12 ehird_, well pro was the only one available in fact. There were like 15 entries in the menu for SQL server though 16:49:48 ehird_, anyway RTM... that means release? or pre-release? 16:49:52 Anyway, VirtualBox can't do Aero IIRC, or at least not very well, and e.g. Windows 7's taskbardockthingy is kinda crippled without it, so I'm not sure why you're bothering with VirtualBox. 16:49:56 AnMaster: Release To Manufacturer. 16:49:58 I thought windows 7 wasn't available yet 16:50:03 ok 16:50:14 maybe they release it for MSDNAA earlier 16:50:21 They release it to manufacturers earlier. 16:50:40 Everyone pirating it is using RTM, anyway. 16:50:46 in any case... any idea about the driver issue? 16:51:00 Yes, but you ignored the two lines in question. 16:51:06 ehird_, um which ones? 16:51:14 The two ones mentioning VirtualBox. 16:51:28 anyway, no idea; use something that isn't virtualbox 16:51:30 one 16:51:31 ? 16:51:34 Two. 16:51:36 and there is the areo one 16:51:47 Yes; commonly refer to one and a one as two. 16:51:48 ehird_, anyway what else than virtualbox is there? Xen? 16:51:52 *we commonly 16:52:00 AnMaster: Xen isn't actually a proper VM... 16:52:06 ok 16:52:12 qemu would be hellish slow 16:52:16 VMWare? 16:52:46 Although I'm not sure they have a trial as opposed to the useless VMWare Player thing. 16:52:47 ehird_, vmware server 2 is a piece of crap. and for 1.x bitrot has ensured the kernel module no longer compiles against recent kernels 16:53:04 It's a piece of crap but it might be a working piece of crap. Also, I'm referring to Workstation. 16:53:11 Which is available for Linux. 16:53:24 ehird_, would need to pirate it though. Which wasn't in my plans for today. 16:53:48 Then... just make a partition and install it to disk? 16:54:47 ... hm 16:55:21 You *would* have to use IE for a few seconds, though. 16:55:31 ehird_, I don't think shrinking an encrypted partition is easy at all 16:55:45 does windows 7 boot from a usb harddrive? 16:55:46 Plug in a USB drive or something. 16:55:48 Snap. 16:55:49 Probably. 16:55:55 It won't be fast, though. 16:55:59 ok then I just have to find one 16:56:49 ehird_, windows 7 installer *also* refuses to say what exact piece of hardware is missing a driver 16:57:01 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:57:25 -!- coppro has joined. 16:59:02 ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ find /usr/bin/ -name \*enigma\* 16:59:04 where did it go. 16:59:17 ehird_, /usr/games 16:59:17 maybe 16:59:23 -_- 16:59:26 nope. 16:59:54 Oh lol, I think it was starting enigma from ~/NIH/enigma/, presumably my previous cwd. 17:00:01 I never actually installed the package 17:00:11 Selecting previously deselected package enigma-svn. 17:00:11 (Reading database ... 15% 17:00:47 ~/NIH/ :D 17:00:52 Yes. :P 17:01:09 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:01:18 hi ais523 17:01:25 hi 17:01:29 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 17:01:41 ok, AFAICT standard data types such as ints and strings must a) exist, and b) use duck typing 17:01:49 wut] 17:01:51 *wut 17:01:57 oh you mean fedda 17:01:57 brb 17:01:57 -!- ehird has quit ("Ex-Chat"). 17:02:09 -!- ehird has joined. 17:02:13 which is a great concept 17:02:22 did I miss anything 17:02:24 no 17:02:38 Annoying GNOME inconsistency: you can't cancel a drag from the menus (adding a shortcut to the desktop or a panel) with ESC. You have to leave go and remove it manually. 17:03:06 ouch 17:03:20 the main issue is that the input program needs to be represented somehow 17:03:28 and if it's opaque, all Feather programs will need to be quines 17:03:38 which is a ridiculous restriction to put on such an unrestricted language 17:03:49 (well, not true quines, but able to generate a copy of their own source on demand) 17:04:01 that would be great, ais523 17:04:03 ah 17:04:06 just add that as part of the language 17:04:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 17:04:16 every object responds to "your source", so to speak 17:04:19 ehird: that isn't the issue 17:04:21 oh hm found it maybe 17:04:25 the issue is, what format do you get it in? 17:04:28 conclusion: strings exist 17:04:39 hm no 17:04:55 ais523: ah 17:05:00 no 17:05:06 conclusion: you can interpret some things as srtings 17:05:07 *strings 17:05:09 strings are an illusion 17:05:10 that doesn't imply any data types 17:05:12 well, yes 17:05:16 otherwise, even Forth has types 17:05:18 which is ridiculous 17:05:26 anyway, strings are something that the user's likely to want to define at some point 17:05:34 and at that point, we want the program to also be that sort of string 17:05:44 this is what lead me to the conclusion that standard data types use duck typing 17:05:46 also, string theory is just mathematical masturbation 17:06:29 ais523: how on earth do you do VI#89? 17:06:44 brb 17:06:58 I've actually done that one 17:07:03 which bit are you stuck on? the first bit? 17:07:12 it involves strategically placed items to block the lasers 17:07:16 I get the spade, but then can't enter the path to V 17:07:19 (downwards) 17:07:21 because the laser gets me 17:07:24 note that you start with a couple of extralives in your inventory 17:07:43 the trick's to block the laser with the spade (which is even harder then getting the spade in the first place) 17:07:56 in such a way that you can get past the downwards laser too 17:08:05 getting the spade is easy, just wait until the laser goes and then shoot downwards 17:08:17 (before just now, when I figured that out, I was trying to hit the metal switch stones while the lasers were off - try THAT for impossible) 17:09:42 ehird: it wouldn't help, I don't think 17:09:58 grr, pidgin is so crashy 17:10:01 but empathy is moreso :( 17:11:51 :( linux sound 17:12:03 what about it 17:13:15 sucks 17:13:23 what stack 17:13:27 everything 17:13:33 i mean what stack are you using 17:13:42 trying to find one that works 17:13:53 pulseaudio in particular is rather bad right now 17:14:05 your hardware sucks :P 17:14:07 use ossv4 or something 17:14:24 ais523: is there numpad support in enigma? 17:14:35 ehird: for what? movement? 17:14:41 yah 17:14:42 IIRC, planned but not implemented 17:14:48 see, you misunderstand what I want 17:14:56 I just want a sound stack that makes all applications have sound 17:14:59 should NOT be hard 17:15:05 use ossv4 or something. 17:15:13 and stop whining, if you buy unsupported hardware guess what, it doesn't work 17:15:38 this is linux; all hardware is unsupported 17:15:47 no, that's not true, stop trolling 17:16:20 ehird: fine then. Tell me how to set this up 17:16:26 no 17:17:13 why not? 17:17:22 ok then, pay me and i will 17:17:58 but uhh, sudo apt-get purge pulseaudio alsa-*; sudo apt-get autoremove --purge; find_and_install_ossv4_package 17:18:06 i just use pulseaudio + alsa and it works fine. 17:18:13 sure, but pulse hates me 17:18:19 well, it might be lagged; I can't tell 17:18:32 I just went through the options on the sound menu until I found one that worked 17:18:35 in fact, IIRC they all work 17:18:40 ALSA, OSS /and/ PulseAudio 17:18:44 on this system, at least 17:18:50 that's because pulseaudio talks to alsa and oss is just alsa's oss wrapper. 17:18:54 done that; the hardware works fine, but not through pulse 17:19:02 surprise! three things work if they're all the same 17:19:28 AnMaster: iwc :D 17:19:42 how do you test ALSA? 17:20:10 oerjan, mhm 17:20:17 lmgtfy.com 17:20:21 ehird: if they're all the same, why is there a choice? 17:20:28 `google test ALSA 17:20:36 ais523: because pulseaudio is an additional layer over ALSA, and so can do more, 17:20:38 hmm... what have I messed up here? 17:20:42 ah, HackEgo isn't here 17:20:43 and because ALSA exposes its OSS interface as, you know, OSS 17:20:45 so it shows up as... OSS. 17:20:49 ah 17:21:03 the OSS in question is v3, which sucks ass 17:21:08 ehird, "A required CD/DVD drive device driver is missing. If you have a floppy disk, CD, DVD or USB flash driver, please insert it now." <-- I get that in virtualbox, and I get it when trying to boot the actual computer with the cd too 17:21:13 and yes that is *after* I select install 17:21:19 v4 apparently has sloppy code and could never get into the kernel, but apparently works excellently and with really tiny latency 17:21:26 so I think it is saying that there is no device driver for the CD *drive* 17:21:26 ehird, right? 17:21:36 does it let more than one application at once use sound? 17:21:37 don't know 17:21:42 coppro: are you serious 17:21:43 even OSS does that 17:21:50 you've gotta be trolling 17:21:58 ehird: not over here it doesn't! 17:22:09 ehird, any idea? 17:22:12 stop buying unsupported hardware. 17:22:15 AnMaster: "don't know" 17:22:22 ah that was aimed at me ok 17:22:32 just use not-virtualbox :P 17:22:48 AnMaster: you're using the closed source virtualbox right 17:23:07 ehird, yes indeed. But the same message happened on the real hardware! 17:23:11 very strange 17:23:28 ais523: I can't get any ball to get onto the lines in VIII#43... 17:23:35 ehird: some applications can run concurrently. But others refuse to 17:23:40 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode."). 17:23:57 ehird: I can do 1 on that level, but nor more 17:24:07 I suspect there's a trick but don't know what it is 17:24:09 *not more 17:24:17 -!- coppro has joined. 17:24:26 ehird, also all the disks are listed in the "browse for driver" in virtualbox (formatted the virtual c: drive from inside virtual win xp to check if it was that that was broken) 17:24:33 so I'm completely clueless 17:24:40 don't make a partition 17:24:43 let it partition it itself 17:24:48 ehird, tried that first 17:25:04 ais523: ok, VIII#42 is just evil 17:25:20 I've done it in easy 17:25:27 in hard, though, just wow 17:25:36 set your mouseforce up to 15 on negative-friction levels, by the way 17:25:37 even on mouse speed 1... 17:25:40 oh 17:25:41 heh 17:25:54 you'll need it to resist 17:28:04 VIII#55 what 17:28:47 also, is there a button to update the scores instead ofj ustb eing auto? 17:28:49 there are lots of equally what levels 17:28:49 *of just being 17:28:54 and no, I don't think so 17:29:06 likewise, disincentives to upload scores too often 17:29:17 perhaps it's illmind operating the score download server :) 17:29:45 are you kidding, that's like 1,000 numbers 17:29:54 he could never afford the bandwidth 17:32:06 Mad Data, with the permission of Dongleware, has produced an official Freeware game with the name "Oxyd extra v2.0" (see external links below). 17:32:12 wonder when we'll see that in Enigma :P 17:40:40 -!- kar8nga has joined. 17:44:22 * ehird reads someone on reddit call the > quoting syntax a "fancy hack" and using the literal character | instead, and when people point out that that breaks horribly on wrapping lines tells them to resize their browser to be huge 17:44:24 ah, the internet 17:46:47 not as good as aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa to cause line wrapping 17:47:20 I've seen a site emulating table width="100%" with a long sentence coloured as the background congratulating you for finding the secret. 17:47:35 "FINO works by withholding all scheduled tasks permanently. No matter how many tasks are scheduled at any time, no task ever actually takes place. This makes FINO extremely simple to implement" --Wikipedia 17:48:08 Additionally 17:48:11 int32 is_computer_on(void) 17:48:12 Returns 1 if the computer is on. If the computer isn't on, the value returned by this function is undefined. 17:48:12 double is_computer_on_fire(void) 17:48:12 Returns the temperature of the motherboard if the computer is currently on fire. If the computer isn't on fire, the function returns some other value. 17:48:14 --BeOS 17:55:12 "FINO works by withholding all scheduled tasks permanently. No matter how many tasks are scheduled at any time, no task ever actually takes place. This makes FINO extremely simple to implement" --Wikipedia <-- a joke? On wikipedia? 17:55:24 I *did* omit the ending of that last sentence... 17:55:41 Namely: 17:55:53 ", but useless in practice." 17:57:18 ehird, and those "is_computer_on" and "is_computer_on_fire" are really in BeOS? ^_Å 17:57:20 ^_^* 17:58:08 Yes. 17:58:18 Well, in some class. 17:59:21 someone just asked me what chatroom I was in 17:59:24 and I pointed to the logs of this place 17:59:30 oh dear. 17:59:40 I have no idea what the effect will be 17:59:51 but the firewall on the desktops here blocks port 6667 outbound, so likely nothing we'll notice 18:00:16 (as in, beyond the barrier of beingbotheredness compared to the typical difficulty) 18:00:22 MSNAA provides MS-DOS too it seems 18:00:23 hehe 18:00:28 it's unlikely that anyone who calls it a chatroom will be able to access IRC. 18:00:28 two versions: 18:00:43 6.0 and 6.22 18:00:45 AnMaster: do you pretty much have free range over MSNAA or something? 18:00:50 write a script to download all of it 18:01:16 ehird, you can only install any once and have to install them while you are still studying. Oh and I don't have enough disk space 18:01:20 for all 18:01:25 AnMaster: you mean MSDNAA? 18:01:32 ais523, eh yeah 18:01:48 in theory I can access it here, but I've never tried 18:01:54 you can only install them once? 18:01:54 what a crock of shit 18:01:56 besides, most of what they do isn't compatible with Linux 18:01:56 hooray for piracy 18:02:11 anyway here is the list: 18:02:27 http://pastebin.ca/1586321 18:02:32 copied from "view source" 18:02:47 however a bit strange because office isn't supposed to be part of this 18:02:58 how shocking, everything but the OSs are worthless. 18:03:00 oh wait, that isn't actually office 18:03:16 those are various office addons it seems 18:03:27 ehird, what about: 18:03:36 heh 18:03:41 interix sucks, probably 18:04:05 ehird, well first I want to get that win7 pro rtm to actually install 18:04:13 and if it doesn't even on actual hardware... 18:04:40 ehird, visual studio isn't that useless. I mean, SQL server is way more useless 18:05:13 well, fair enough 18:05:23 the OSs, visual studio and maybe Interix 18:05:30 visual studio is allegedly quite good for development in Microsoft languages 18:05:33 how fast are the downloads? 18:05:34 although I've hardly used it 18:07:31 ehird, maxed out connection at home (820 KB/s or so), widly varying at uni (everything from 200 bytes/s to 1.5 MB/s) 18:08:18 820 KiB maxes out that university connection? 18:08:22 -!- Asztal has joined. 18:08:24 ehird, read again 18:08:27 *at home* 18:08:29 Oh. 18:08:33 Stupid brain. 18:08:42 ehird, and 1.5 MB/s doesn't nearly max out uni connection at all 18:08:46 even though that is wlan 18:08:59 The uni will be able to get at least 12.5MiB/s. 18:09:02 and I was even within view of base station 18:09:32 ehird, a bit less, I managed 8 mbps off peek hours over the wlan 18:09:40 but nowhere near that at peak hours 18:09:41 Uhh, mbps = megabits. 18:09:54 So that's ~1MiB/s. 18:09:55 ehird, correct. And it is 11g 18:10:03 ehird, err, no 18:10:04 It's not a bit less, it's about 10x less. 18:10:06 I meant MBps 18:10:07 not mbps 18:10:24 and that is MiB in your notation even 18:10:42 That isn't what you said (and that's megabytes, i.e. decimal, i.e. 7.62MiB anyway). 18:10:46 Not my notation; the standard notation. 18:11:03 ehird, I refuse to use MiB when I mean base 1024 18:11:06 b is a bit, B is a byte, SI prefixes (except possibly for kiB or KiB) followed by i = binary. 18:11:07 you just have to live with it 18:11:19 ehird, and as I said the b was a typo 18:11:30 according to that it should have been millibyte per second 18:11:32 At least you could be consistent while being contrarian. 18:11:36 since it was small m 18:12:00 ehird, I see you never heard of typos 18:12:31 You seem awfully selective about your standards; POSIX is mandatory and unit standards are ignorable. Are we going to start seeing selective application of POSIX selections, or is it atomic at the standard level? Fun and arbitrariness. 18:12:47 ehird, btw windows xp pro 64-bit installs just fine so it isn't a 64-bit issue in general it seems 18:13:23 ehird, EFI is a standard too. And you can't argue that is good 18:14:08 Yes, but there is an alternative to EFI; BIOS. 18:14:16 ehird, openfirmware 18:14:29 what's wrong with EFI? 18:14:40 just curious, not claiming it's necessarily good 18:14:43 Anyway, I could just start talking in Lojban and that'd be perfectly valid too. But when we're talking in English, using differing units just to spite the other party is hostile and makes you a jerk. 18:14:55 ais523: "what if we used a full OS... to boot the OS?" 18:15:01 ah, ok 18:15:06 "with drivers and command shells and a kernel and applications!!! YAAAAY" 18:15:46 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 18:15:50 the arguments in favour of it I've seen is that BIOS isn't designed for anything but keyboards, screens, floppy drives, parallel ports, and serial ports 18:16:06 Very true. On the other hand, EFI is shit. 18:16:28 ais523, there is a good alternative though: open firmware 18:16:40 have you actually used OpenFirmware? 18:16:49 the forth is fun but configuring it is a huge bitch 18:16:55 and it's not easy to diagnose problems 18:17:01 it's fun, but not practical 18:18:06 grr, keyserver.ubuntu.com is slow enough that gpg times out 18:20:32 Yay, it finally worked. 18:20:34 -!- impomatic has joined. 18:24:57 First few seconds impressions of Chromium on Linux: It still draws its own window border. Ow, my eyes. Hey, it looks like they fixed the font rendering... but... it looks kinda different to normal. What why are they drawing their own scrollbars WHAT IS THE POINT OF THAT 18:25:18 18:25:19 huh? 18:25:40 Microsoft healthcare? Sounds like a superb idea! 18:25:46 ehird: what do you think of Chrome Frame 18:25:48 have you actually used OpenFirmware? <-- yes I have. On a PPC mac 18:25:50 ? 18:25:57 of course you don't use it a lot normally there 18:25:59 ais523: It's a cute hack. 18:26:06 AnMaster: Yes, well, it Just Works there. 18:26:20 Even EFI is great if it's working. 18:26:59 More impressions: The Greyscale theme hurts my eyes less than that awful blue. Hey, can I get rid of that home button? Yes. Yes I can. 18:27:16 "Use system title bar and borders" Yay. 18:27:29 Oh, that just makes it look like Opera with its custom tab bar, really. :P 18:27:53 You can make it use the GTK theme's colours and icons. That would be nice, but it makes the background of the tab bar be dark brown... 18:27:55 ehird, screenshot of the custom title bar and such. And screenshot of it now 18:28:07 What do you mean, screenshot of it now? 18:28:08 ehird, strange theme there :P 18:28:17 ehird, well, when it " Oh, that just makes it look like Opera with its custom tab bar, really. :P" 18:28:41 Well, it's just the window border followed by the custom widgets on a tab bar that make me think of Opera, really. 18:28:43 Well, and a black background. 18:29:12 Hmm, system colours + drawing its own title bar will probably work best; the brown tab bar looks fine if it's blended in with the window title like on Windows. 18:29:21 ehird, I haven't used opera for years. When I think of opera I still see the version after they made it freeware 18:29:42 http://www.cafesurvey.com/static/images/browsers/opera10_linux.png 18:29:45 Note the tab bar. 18:29:52 yep 18:30:00 That's not the current tab bar 18:30:01 sadly enough 18:30:04 I know. 18:30:04 * FireFly likes that one more 18:30:06 But it's close enough. 18:30:13 the colours there doesn't really fit 18:30:20 *don't 18:30:21 Plural. 18:30:29 Yeah, the text hinting in Chromium has some real fuckedupness going on. 18:30:42 "Finalising installation" "Saving settings". ETA: 8 minutes 18:30:42 heh 18:30:44 Letters are detaching from their pals to high-five their unsavory neighbours. 18:30:50 (this is win xp pro x64) 18:30:54 that's the ETA for the total installation 18:32:06 ehird, yes, but it has already been "saving settings" for over 4 minutes 18:32:15 still is 18:32:42 It's probably frozen. 18:32:52 not really, harddrive working a lot 18:32:57 and it does count down 18:33:01 just saving settings all the time 18:33:06 6 minutes now 18:33:09 and saving settings 18:33:24 5 minutes and saving settings 18:33:36 Okay, Chromium? Chromium? Why are you drawing our own form widgets. I guess that explains the scrollbar. Stop that. 18:33:48 *your own form 18:34:25 maybe I should try the 32-bit win 7 pro... it might work better. Maybe 18:34:41 at least based on googling on the issue I hit 18:34:46 AnMaster: Probably the best idea; there aren't such a wide variety of 64-bit drivers. 18:34:56 ehird: any idea why people /don't/ use native widgets? 18:34:59 And also, no applications are 64-bit, pretty much, so everything will go in C:\Program Files (x86) anyway. 18:35:08 I have done in almost everything 18:35:10 ais523, because what are the native widgets on linux? 18:35:12 except DNA Maze, for some weird reason 18:35:14 QT of course 18:35:16 ais523: Well, Chromium does it on Windows for quite a good reason. 18:35:17 No! GTK 18:35:20 AnMaster: It uses gtk, so invalid argument, stfu. 18:35:32 on Linux, the native widgets depend on your DE 18:35:33 ehird, it uses GTK *and* draws it's own? 18:35:36 ok that is strange 18:35:49 Yes, it draws it is own. 18:36:03 btw there is a QT theme to use GTK and iirc a GTK theme to use QT 18:36:08 anyone tried both at once? 18:36:20 One of them has a saveguard against that. 18:36:22 *safeguard 18:36:26 ehird, how boring 18:36:53 you could disable it and then try 18:37:02 I wonder when and why it was added, though? 18:37:04 It'd just draw blank. 18:37:09 Also, because someone tried it? :P 18:37:17 it could have been in GTK from the start, but if not, someone must have tried it 18:37:18 ais523, too lazy 18:37:23 ok, let's do GTK and Athena at the same time 18:37:44 it's not in gtk 18:37:47 it's in qgtkstyle or whatever 18:38:07 huh? No need to activate this windows install? *blink* 18:38:17 AnMaster: it bugs you later. 18:38:25 activation happens after install in Windows 18:38:25 and will disable after n days 18:38:28 ehird, guess so 18:38:30 also, you can only install one xp copy so many times 18:38:33 ais523, yes that is what I thought too 18:38:35 so 18:38:36 you're allowed to use it for 30 days without activationm IIRC 18:38:39 *activation, 18:38:41 have fun downloading an activator 18:38:57 ehird: if it's MSDNAA, you could get the activation code pretty easily 18:38:58 ehird, also I never installed this copy before 18:38:59 although only the once 18:39:09 and yes it is MSDNAA 18:39:41 ah now it bugged me 18:39:56 just iirc it always did it before login before 18:41:42 Oh well, no way I'm using Chromium as my main browser. 18:41:54 -!- deschutron has joined. 18:42:04 * ehird deschutes deschutron 18:42:05 WHAT NOW 18:42:20 i am deschuted 18:42:30 verily 18:42:38 i was coming to eavesdrop on some conversation 18:42:52 that's illegal, sir 18:42:52 though i am wondering, 18:43:05 stop 18:43:11 i know what it is 18:43:11 we all wonder about irrigation sometimes, deschutron. 18:43:12 ..? 18:43:17 i wrote an interactive shell in one of my variants of SNUSP 18:43:23 but we just have to get along, you know, and try not to think about irrigation too much, you understand? 18:43:32 deschutron, are you new here or? 18:43:40 yes i'm new here 18:43:52 he may have been here once, twice or 5746583465 times here before, pick one 18:43:57 ehird, that isn't nice to a new user 18:44:04 5746583465 18:44:08 what, talking about irrigation? i'm so sorry 18:44:15 deschutron: i didn't mean to upset your virgin ears :( 18:44:38 AnMaster: he's been here before. 18:44:52 mhm 18:44:53 yay, SNUSP 18:45:01 anyway i wrote a neat program in an esoteric language. i'd like to show it off 18:45:05 fair enough 18:45:07 and here is a good place 18:45:08 absolutely forbidden! 18:45:13 when ehird and AnMaster stop bickering, at least 18:45:16 ais523: we must fight to the death,. 18:45:21 this place could do with being on-topic some of the time at least 18:45:23 with commas and full stops,. 18:45:25 preferably all of it 18:45:36 that'd just be boring 18:45:39 no 18:45:43 yes 18:45:43 I'm here because I find esolangs interesting 18:46:05 there's a thing called community and it pretty much requires offtopicity. 18:46:20 and irrigation 18:46:24 artificially censoring the channel to one topic helps nobody, it's just antagonistic; the fact is that esolangs move slowly 18:46:33 and if someone wants to talk about esolangs we're not exactly going to stop them 18:46:34 I wouldn't want an artifical censor 18:46:45 that's what being on topic is; conversation flows 18:46:45 I'd prefer a /natural/ censor, as in people talked about esolangs because they're a good subject 18:46:50 I mean, I was talking about Feather earlier 18:46:52 but was mostly ignored 18:46:59 because I had nothing to say 18:47:03 it was interesting 18:47:04 partly because thinking about Feather drives everyone mad, I suppose 18:47:09 but I didn't have many comments 18:47:16 anyway, I should be able to get a reference interp out relatively soon now I hope 18:47:24 which /would/ be progress 18:47:28 that's the thing, there isn't enough happening in esolangs to talk about it all the time, and the only way we can have fun esolang discussions is having a community, so... 18:47:39 ais523: I still think it's a non-concept 18:47:41 not really implementing anything of the language beyond a bare-bones ability to retroactively change the interp 18:47:44 which is all you need, of course 18:47:45 what's Feather? 18:47:51 deschutron: you seriously did not want to ask that 18:47:56 deschutron: an unreleased esolang of mine 18:48:03 pressing for more details is liable to cause madness 18:48:04 haha 18:48:12 especially as /I/ go mad thinking about it, and I invented it 18:48:14 go ahead 18:48:19 well, OK 18:48:22 oh dear 18:48:27 deschutron: nice knowing you 18:48:36 it's basically an attempt to make a decent prototype-based proper OO programming language 18:48:52 except that it involves retroactive changes to things 18:48:55 ok 18:48:57 in order to do inheritance, originally 18:49:02 and then generalised out into other thins 18:49:04 so going to try google chrome in the virtualbox 18:49:04 *things 18:49:11 instead of bloated firefox 18:49:21 another alternative would have been opera I guess 18:49:23 AnMaster: good idea, but note that the title bar on XP and vista/7 without aero is kinda ugly 18:49:25 Wait, Feather actually _exists_? 18:49:26 all blue 18:49:34 ehird, this is xp x64 18:49:36 so the idea is, instead of delegation or anything like that, you simply change all the child objects at the time they were created 18:49:39 FireFly: not exactly 18:49:40 AnMaster: right, it's just a bit ugly 18:49:41 the idea exists 18:49:46 the rest of it's perfect though 18:49:47 but as I go mad thinking about it, and nobody else really knows what I mean 18:49:51 Well, exists as in the idea is actually serious 18:49:52 there isn't an interp or anything like that yet 18:49:52 I mean 18:49:57 there are some notes somewhere, but they're wrong 18:49:58 I thought it was an ongoing joke to talk about it 18:50:08 lol 18:50:08 ehird, cursed be widescreen laptops indeed. 18:50:13 FireFly: from ehird's point of view, it is, I don't think he thinks I'm serious 18:50:14 AnMaster: whut 18:50:20 and as I said, I go mad thinking about it, so maybe I'm not 18:50:24 ais523: I do, I'm just skeptical that the idea can exist, per se 18:50:32 ais523: like, it's trying to feel every part of a klein bottle in a 3d world 18:50:32 ehird, virtualbox window hight < chrome window height. 18:50:36 you can project it onto the 3d world in various ways 18:50:37 of course I can resize it 18:50:40 what do you mean by a retroactive change? 18:50:40 but you can never capture every aspect like that 18:50:41 but that is some bad defaults 18:50:42 your madness 18:50:47 is becausey ou'er thinking of different projections 18:50:49 *because you're 18:50:51 and they're inconsistent 18:50:52 ehird, eh? 18:50:59 basically, feather cannot be expressed 18:51:02 deschutron: basically, you calculate what state the program would be in if the change had been made at some earlier point in time 18:51:05 it's inconsistent in our universe 18:51:07 then change the program state to that 18:51:26 ais523, is it possible to express paradoxes in feather? 18:51:29 strangely, the operation needed to do this almost already exists, it's a trivial variant of call/cc, and can easily be implemented in terms of it 18:51:33 something like killing your own grand-interpreter? 18:51:33 AnMaster: yes, they cause infinite loops 18:51:41 ais523: do you get what I mean about non-concept? 18:51:42 although, that isn't a true two-way paradox 18:51:52 ais523, have you ever written/tried to express something of this online? 18:51:58 As in, a .txt document or something 18:52:02 FireFly: sort-of, I pasted some notes on pastebin.ca ages ago 18:52:08 as I said, though, they're wrong 18:52:14 and so I don't know if they're useful or harmful 18:52:24 Heh 18:52:35 so a feather program can change the prior state abject it was cloned from, and then all the effects of that change are calculated and applied to the machine's state? 18:52:50 deschutron: pretty much 18:52:52 ehird, chrome sure lacks some options. Like "ask about every cookie" 18:52:56 ais523 is ignoring me because i'm crazy :) 18:53:00 AnMaster: yes, because that's infeasible 18:53:05 because every site uses like 5 cookies 18:53:08 ehird: I've used that setting before now 18:53:14 ehird, you just click "remember for site" 18:53:15 -_- 18:53:21 firefox manages it well 18:53:33 AnMaster: Chrome also sends a bunch of details to Google by default and updates in the background, so if you're crazy and paranoid why are you using it? 18:53:51 you have to use that Iron fork thing to avoid that 18:53:55 ehird, well it isn't like I'll use that vm for a lot 18:54:01 so why are you bothered 18:54:24 ehird, because I was evaluating it for possible usage elsewhere 18:54:42 well, it's only any good on windows and i don't imagine you use many windows machines... 18:54:59 ehird, true. 18:55:45 ehird, what about antivirus for 64-bit windows? 18:56:01 What about anti-MINDvirus? 18:56:08 Oh, sorry :< 18:56:13 AnMaster: just use a 32-bit one? I'm pretty sure they work 18:56:14 ais523: your feather idea sounds interesting, though i don't know whether it provides any convenience at all 18:56:16 or, use a 64-bit one 18:56:20 deschutron: I doubt it does 18:56:31 AnMaster: NOD32 is fine if you don't mind pirating, otherwise use the new one Microsoft released which I think is Vista/7 only 18:56:32 it seems to provide an incredible amount of power, at the cost of going mad trying to write it 18:56:33 AVG is crap 18:56:40 ehird, antivirus tends to use drivers to hook in to low level 18:56:44 what happens if an object kills its grandfather 18:56:44 so I doubt a 32-bit one would work 18:56:48 Eh 18:56:50 Fine then 18:56:59 deschutron: it doesn't exist in the new timeline 18:57:07 The built-in Windows firewall is fine 18:57:07 timelines only have to be consistent in one direction 18:57:08 ie wipes the memory of its grabdfather object at a time before its parent was made 18:57:21 as in, actions in deleted parts of timelines can affect the current ones 18:57:26 AnMaster: mostly, though, you don't get random viruses nowadays 18:57:29 at least not with SP3 18:57:43 this avoids the grandfather paradox neatly, although not certain other sorts of paradoxes 18:57:51 there's basically no known ways to run some code without running something vaguely executable yourself 18:57:52 ehird, heck this is sp1... installing upgrades atm 18:57:53 ah, like back to the future 2 18:58:23 but then some results of the change are carried forward, but some are not, right> 18:58:45 well, all changes are carried forwards 18:58:50 and if that wipes out the source of the change, so be it 18:59:18 suppose you have two separate objects A and B 18:59:19 one of the major issues in actual programming (which I've thought about, but not tried) is to ensure that changing things that happened early on don't completely destroy the logic of your program 18:59:31 unless, of course, you're doing that deliberately, but why would you? 18:59:36 ok, two objects are fine 19:00:06 and A wipes B's grandparent before B is made. 19:00:12 does B cease to exist? 19:00:19 yes 19:00:24 ais523: what happens if you make true haven-alwaysbeen false? 19:00:25 well, in that timeline, it never existed in the first place 19:00:25 what if A = B? 19:00:34 does the interpreter just explode infinitely and give up? 19:00:41 deschutron: same thing, no paradox under Feather's rules 19:00:54 ehird: anything that actually depended on them being different would probably retroactively break 19:01:05 leading to something hard to distinguish from undefined behaviour 19:01:08 ais523: like, say, the original interpreter 19:01:11 yes 19:01:19 which interprets itself, and so BOOM? 19:01:35 well, not exactly BOOM, the resulting code would do /something/ 19:01:40 it would be unlikely to be useful, though 19:01:48 I mean, just see what true become: false does in Smalltalk 19:01:58 but it can't; you can't interpret the original interpreter if true is false 19:02:03 it would be pretty similar, retroactivity doesn't make that any more of a disaster than it is imperatively 19:02:20 so then if an object kills its grandfather, its future actions are nullified, but its past ones are not 19:02:27 deschutron: yes, that's it 19:02:38 hmm... can time be removed from Feather? 19:02:43 ehird: well, yes, so it would probably break before (in that timeline) the program ever got to run 19:02:50 like, ther is no progression of time, everything has to be done retroactively 19:02:53 *there 19:02:53 ehird: possibly; it depends on what you mean by that 19:02:55 sort of thing 19:03:06 everything is immutable in Feather 19:03:06 like, isn't the mechanism of advancing in the program redundant if you can manipulate time retroactively? 19:03:10 but then, it is in lambda calculus too 19:03:37 ehird: I see what you're saying; I think that's the Feather equivalent of a trampoline, or something like taht 19:03:39 *that 19:03:45 but I'm not sure 19:04:02 I don't really understand what I'm proposing, but then I don't understand Feather either 19:04:13 neither do I 19:04:25 it just seems like having everything work retroactively on a single point of unchanging non-time is way more elegant than ugly time and its progression 19:04:29 but I'm getting a grasp on how it works simply by observations about what couldn't work, and what I can't find a contradiction in 19:06:46 ais523: consider these two cases: 19:06:46 A has a variable x; x = 0; A sets x's initial value to 10; x = 10 19:06:46 A has a variable x; x = 0; A sets 0 to x + 1; x = 1; A sets x's initial value to 10; x = 1 19:07:30 err, what do you mean by "x = 0" here? 19:07:38 you can't change the current values of things, only the initial values 19:07:49 oh ok 19:08:41 AAAH 19:08:54 well it should be interesting 19:08:55 ehird, I know why the ISO doesn't work "error reading" for lots of files on it 19:09:06 basically broken download 19:09:26 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Jerry. 19:09:27 sigh 19:10:01 -!- adam_d has quit (Connection timed out). 19:10:13 and microsoft even made you download an *.exe supposed to download the whole thing 19:10:46 an alternative solution to the grandfather paradox is that the environment detects it and throws an exception, which the program uses as part of its control flow 19:11:19 more programs need to have a ui like darcs. i think. 19:11:36 you could have programs deliberately causing paradoxes, just to cause the effects they need to operate. if blocks could be implemented with paradoxes 19:11:40 AnMaster: is that MSDNAA? I had to download visual studio 4 times... the downloader is awful 19:11:58 deschutron: well, pretty much every change to the language is a paradox in a way 19:12:07 in that the program that caused it means something else in the new language 19:12:22 the thing that gets ehird mad is the concept of retroactively changing things in the interpreter itself 19:12:27 but it's a generalisation of the same concept, really 19:12:40 mad? 19:12:42 all you have to do is box it (make it able to change retroactively), and give a copy of it to the program 19:12:44 like crazy or upset 19:12:51 ehird: well, thinking it won't work 19:12:58 no, that's not true 19:13:08 and I've never said either of those things 19:13:21 there are plenty of things that won't work; I think Feather is more than simply not-working 19:13:27 like, if we have willWork(p) 19:13:28 well, ok 19:13:32 you say I think ~willWork(feather) 19:13:40 whereas I think you can't even give "feather" a value 19:13:54 i.e., it's inexpressable in the logic of our universe, and maybe we need a more flexible universe with better logic to have Feather 19:13:58 I'm not entirely serious about it 19:14:00 ok 19:14:04 but it would explain the insanity 19:14:08 AnMaster: is that MSDNAA? I had to download visual studio 4 times... the downloader is awful <-- yes it is 19:14:29 Asztal, and that will be a bit painful for windows 7 pro... 19:14:30 I have a brilliant method for dealing with the apparent causality paradoxen, I think 19:14:32 rtm too 19:14:36 but I don't feel up to explaining it right now 19:14:51 heck the downloader even said "Checking CRC" 19:14:56 so complete and utter fail 19:14:59 failure* 19:15:13 you want crc to be reliable on a multi-jiggabyte file? 19:15:24 ehird, no I want it to use something saner 19:15:36 like, md5 19:15:37 CRC's excellent at detecting accidental errors 19:15:45 although it isn't good at detecting deliberate ones 19:16:03 ais523, it failed in this case. the iso is cut short at 3 GB and it should be something closer to twice that I think 19:16:14 did the CRC match? 19:16:20 AnMaster: er, no 19:16:24 ehird, no? 19:16:30 DVDs can only do about 4GB normally or thereabouts 19:16:36 and Windows 7 doesn't, afaik, require a dual-layer DVD 19:16:40 in fact, I know it doesn't for a fact 19:16:54 does dual side, dual layer even exist? 19:16:56 because the burning tool I used told me I could use a single-layer when I gave it a dual-layer to write to 19:17:04 dual layer dvds are like 9GB 19:17:04 ehird, ok. 19:17:13 ehird, yes because 4+4=9 19:17:14 ;P 19:17:30 it's 3.9GB, I think 19:17:31 for single-layers 19:17:38 i don't know 19:17:40 too lazy to check 19:17:49 so dual would be slightly less than 8? 19:18:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD%2BR_DL 19:18:11 I tried downloading it from a friend, but I apparently used some version of wget that looped around to -2.1GB when it reached 2GB, and then crashed. 19:18:18 4.7GB single layer 19:18:29 Asztal, maybe I should download MSDO 6.0 from MSDNAA? 19:18:31 9.4GB DL 19:18:38 i didn't mean double layer 19:18:41 i meant double side 19:18:42 i think 19:18:42 whatever 19:18:44 "~17.08 GB (rare—double-sided, double-layer)" 19:18:46 want 19:18:56 well, okay, don't want 19:19:00 but would be fun. 19:19:05 ^it after but 19:19:21 i have an idea 19:19:42 i can imagine this situation: 19:19:43 ehird, iirc they are/were tricky to manufacture 19:19:51 as in, issues getting them flat when gluing all the layers together 19:19:54 A != B. A changes B's past, B's previous behaviour changes, A reads from B and prints to screen. A changes B's past again, B's previous behaviour changes, A reads from B again. B is effectively a method. no paradoxes occur here either 19:19:57 was years ago I read that though 19:20:05 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 19:20:06 i could do with a non-flat dvd 19:20:10 A changes A's past. A becomes undefined. An exception is thrown. A's creator receives it and reacts to it. 19:20:17 like, I'd totally love an orb storage mechanism 19:20:18 or a cube 19:20:24 deschutron: that sort of thing seems reasonable 19:20:25 there's a tray in front of the monitor 19:20:25 ehird, sure. As decoration. Doesn't actually work in a computer though 19:20:25 if rather confusing 19:20:28 let A's creator = C, and look back in time to before A existed. 19:20:28 and you throw it in 19:20:30 and it shoots it into the reader 19:20:30 ehird, get DVD-RAM instead ;P 19:20:38 C creates A to do some stuff for it. C waits for a paradox exception. C recieves and knows that A has done its work. C performs its next task. 19:20:40 worryingly, I think you probably /have/ to program in that sort of way, and that's what makes Feather an esolang 19:20:46 get the beautifully-decorated album orb from the shelf 19:20:50 throw it into the monitor's tray 19:20:53 THWWWWPT 19:20:54 although, you wouldn't exactly get a paradox exception 19:20:56 it's sucked in and starts reading 19:20:59 It is undefined whether A did anything, but the output cannot be undone. C has successfully manipulated time to its own ends. The user's experience is as if they are travelling in a Tardis. 19:21:03 you'd just find that the object you just created nevertheless no longer exists 19:21:07 which would be a giveaway 19:21:11 the orb storage will be short-lived, after everyone gets fed up with fetching them after they roll away 19:21:37 oerjan, :D 19:21:57 oerjan, well I'm fed up with cds/dvds falling on floor and being hard to pick up 19:22:06 well,* 19:22:12 i am slightly worried by the fact AnMaster seems to get my jokes best these days 19:22:18 deschutron: have you seen the TRDS extension to Befunge? 19:22:25 it's not unlike Feather, in a way 19:22:27 no 19:22:28 just doesn't go nearly as far 19:22:38 basically, it lets you preserve and rewind state 19:22:42 i think i might have just found a possible line between what is undone and what isn't 19:22:48 Deewiant here understands it well enough to have writen a testsuite 19:22:50 standard output 19:22:51 oerjan: well 19:22:55 i think cubes would be better than orbs 19:23:06 but those'd be less fun to decorate 19:23:09 deschutron: I/O is a real pain in Feather, for this sort of reason 19:23:21 I'm planning to get the rest of the language done first and then see if there's a natural way to do I/O 19:23:24 oerjan, sqrt(-garfield) was really funny today IMO 19:23:30 as it isn't all that important computationally 19:23:53 -!- oerjan has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:23:54 -!- olsner has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 19:24:11 you could have it such that each object has two methods of communication: one convenient one like functions or direct manipulation, and one other like writing to standard out 19:24:12 but those'd be less fun to decorate [your xmas tree with] 19:24:21 wait what, "logging off" in windows is WAY from the center 19:24:28 more like at the right side 19:24:35 AnMaster: that's the design 19:24:40 deschutron: well, the language is called Feather because the language itself is bare-bones 19:24:41 actions in the convenient are undone by changes to previous states 19:24:42 normally, in the login screen, to the left is "welcome" 19:24:50 and to the right (where that logging off text is) is the users 19:24:54 and you're meant to use standardish headers, etc, to create the language features you want at runtime 19:24:56 ehird, oh? I tend to use classical login yeah 19:24:59 so maybe I missed it 19:25:13 that sort of thing is the sort of thing that would be perfect to go in a library 19:25:14 the XP-style login is ugly but convenient; click type enter beats type type type tab type enter 19:25:21 output to the second channel is preserved as whatever it was when it was written 19:25:32 ehird, you forgot ctrl-alt-del before login 19:25:36 IMO Feather should be made in a way so that you can add any OS interaction you want, somehow 19:25:38 the user only receives info if it passes through the second channel 19:25:42 AnMaster: err, why? 19:25:47 oh, classical-stle 19:25:49 style 19:25:55 deschutron: the real challenge with output is actually to not reprint it every time you get a change 19:25:58 ehird, you have to on the xp computers at uni at least 19:26:01 not sure why 19:26:01 in the timeline 19:26:03 let's do it classical-style baby 19:26:07 ehird, security maybe 19:26:10 classical login just reminds me of NT. 19:26:18 but you could just store an output pointer in an object, together with the output, and reprint only if it changes 19:26:21 ehird, NT wasn't that bad. ;P 19:26:30 fuck yes it was 19:26:43 ehird: there's a Linux equivalent of control-alt-del before login too, but it's more interesting 19:27:02 you could have it such that when the actions of the past are recalculated, the standard out calls that should have happened are not executed 19:27:06 ehird, relative windows 3.1 I mean 19:27:11 Alt-(SysRq,K) terminates all programs but the login screen 19:27:16 so you know after pressing it that you're at a real login screen, not a fake one 19:27:28 nt was pretty much identical to 3.1 at first, then much shittier than 95 19:27:28 then it DIED 19:27:30 deschutron: or executed and ignored, probably easier in practice 19:27:44 "easier in practice" 19:27:45 "feather" 19:27:47 you suck 19:28:15 Alt-(SysRq,K) terminates all programs but the login screen <-- eh? On windows? 19:28:17 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:28:20 AnMaster: no, on Linux 19:28:23 i mean no bytes get sent to standard out, but all variable changes still occur 19:28:27 at the kernel level, so usermode programs can't fool it 19:28:32 deschutron: yes, exactly 19:28:34 ais523, and no it doesn't. It kills even getty but getty respawns 19:28:35 iirc 19:28:41 ah, ofc 19:28:45 everything but init, then 19:28:51 as init's responsible for the respawning 19:28:53 ais523, no, only current terminal 19:29:02 even better 19:29:09 AnMaster: a bit black humor, i think 19:29:12 ais523, and it doesn't work very well on gdm 19:29:18 oerjan, eh? 19:29:32 oerjan, sqrt(-garfield) was really funny today IMO 19:29:36 there ought to be a tool for a program designed to be a tool for programming and maintaining, but isn't just an "editor" of text files, and isn't a big bloated IDE because it uses other tools to do the work 19:29:41 oerjan, oh that. was ages ago 19:29:52 "programmer" would work, but is sorta taken. :P 19:30:02 oerjan, thought you were making some bad pun on "kill getty", "terminal", "black" 19:30:04 AnMaster: i netsplat 19:30:11 but that would be even below your level 19:30:36 ais523, are you familiar with SNUSP? 19:30:46 deschutron, I'm not. Short summary? 19:30:50 I know of it, but not much 19:31:16 a 2D brainfuck variant, inspired by PATH, and better than PATH 19:31:22 ah 19:31:24 ais523: you said "yay snusp" before :P 19:31:39 yes, it doesn't get enough love 19:31:40 anyway, whatever the term is, I think I'm going to make one of them with a UI sort of like darcs. 19:32:39 snuggle up to snusp 19:32:56 muggles snuggle to snusp 19:33:27 i had the idea to add a fork instruction to it 19:33:50 where the parent and the child are automatically piped to each other 19:34:41 do you think that would be in keeping with the spirit of the language? 19:35:36 with Bloated SNUSP, definitely 19:35:40 unless it already exists in that 19:36:03 in which case it would still be in keeping with the spirit, just redundant 19:36:15 Bloated SNUSP has an instruction to create new threads 19:37:01 bloated brainfuck basically? :D 19:37:03 the new thread shares memory with the original, and the two then takes turns to execute instructions 19:37:13 bloated 2d brainfuck 19:37:26 deschutron, yes but the idea of bloating brainfuck seems so backwards 19:38:06 yes it does, it destroys the minimalism 19:38:38 but snusp offers something other than pure minimalism. it offers a chance to visually see algorithms 19:39:37 the instructions are very orthogonal, and the program's memory structure is simple, so there is something nice about it 19:40:00 AnMaster: Brainfork is pretty elegant as a language 19:40:06 brainfuck + threading 19:40:23 there's a variant called Brainfork 19:40:29 why "take turns" as opposed to true concurrency? 19:40:44 predictability, I presume 19:40:46 turn-taking is easier to implement for the person writing the compiler/interp 19:40:47 lame 19:40:48 and boring 19:40:49 that was the way bloated snusp's threading was designed 19:40:56 ais523: no it's not 19:40:59 lament: you can't really do a lock in brainfuck in the proper way 19:41:03 why exactly is the driver called "Microsoft TCP/IP version 6". And the IPv4 one is just "Internet Protocol (TCP/IP)" 19:41:14 AnMaster: who cares 19:41:18 ehird: why not? 19:41:18 and the answer is because 19:41:19 you /can/ do a lock in INTERCAL in the proper way 19:41:29 maybe it indicates that it isn't compatible with the standard one 19:41:37 ehird: use an empty memory cell, increment it while your'e busy, then decrement 19:41:37 semaphores, mutexes, all those primitives are easily implemented in terms of INTERCAL's more powerful primitives 19:41:40 i came up with a different way of multithreading for snusp 19:41:45 AnMaster: no, it doesn't 19:41:48 it is based on the fork() function in unix 19:41:49 lame and boring <-- agreed 19:41:53 ehird, was trying to joke about it 19:41:59 it wasn't funny 19:42:04 ehird, sure was 19:42:45 -!- olsner has joined. 19:43:37 normally, a snusp program can only communicate via stdin and stdout. 19:43:43 what if when you created a new thread, it could only communicate with other threads through stdin and stdout? 19:45:55 ok so lets see.. 1) sp 2 2) more upgrades 3) more upgrades, still no sight of sp3 19:45:58 between each a reboot 19:46:06 and there will be a reboot after batch 3 19:46:16 microsoft: WHY? 19:48:27 aaaaand now ie 8 sigh 19:48:38 ie 6 was quite a nostalgia trip :D 19:48:39 ehird, ^ 19:52:15 ehird, this sound interesting: 19:52:52 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=second+squared+per+second <-- W|A gives bogus output? 19:53:05 The box with the 2 in it doesn't look... good 19:53:21 " To see full output you need to enable Javascript in your browser " <-- err "any output" might be more accurate 19:54:14 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20090927151401988 19:54:14 Ouch. 19:54:18 The box with the 2 in it doesn't look... good <-- how should it look instead of (s^2)/s 19:54:21 That stung. 19:54:23 ehird: you read GrokLaw? 19:54:33 AnMaster: uh 19:54:34 {2[[1]], Comparison as <>PhysicalLookup(2[[1]], PhysicalQuantitySingularName), CalculateScan`UnitScanner`Private`KnownMUnitToQuantityComparison(2, {CalculateUnits`UnitTable`MUnit(1, Unit(First[{}]))})[[CalculateScan`UnitScanner`Private`KnownMUnitToQuantityComparison(2, {CalculateUnits`UnitTable`MUnit(1, Unit(First[{}]))})]]}: 19:54:40 ais523: no, but reddit does 19:54:40 yeah, that ^ 19:54:48 AnMaster: uh <-- uh about what? 19:54:55 AnMaster: ... 19:54:56 nothing, AnMaster. 19:54:58 FireFly, doesn't look like that here 19:55:02 looks like s^2/s 19:55:05 basically 19:55:08 looooooooooool 19:55:12 AnMaster has no scrollbar 19:55:16 and his screen is tiny 19:55:17 apparently 19:55:21 ehird, um I do 19:55:24 Or no JS 19:55:25 want a screenshot? 19:55:26 Or something 19:55:28 clearly not, or you would have scrolled down 19:55:31 FireFly, enabled JS in firefox 19:55:34 and I scrolled down 19:55:36 the box below Unit system 19:55:41 oh that reminds me of the bit about Silverlight being ported to Moblin 19:55:48 Which is below Input interpretation 19:55:49 which is weird; I don't get why they aren't using Moonlight 19:55:51 which is what you quoted 19:56:01 unless Microsoft want two competing Silverlight impls on Linux? 19:56:52 * ehird has a rather stupid idea 19:57:00 Ubuntu/kFreeBSD or Ubuntu/kHURd 19:57:02 *HURD 19:57:35 well, there's Debian GNU/BSD 19:57:36 and Nexenta 19:57:45 I know Debian/k{FreeBSD,HURD} exist 19:57:58 it wouldn't be hard, just take debian's kernel and base packages and add them to a fork of ubuntu's repo 19:58:05 Nexenta is Ubuntu/kOpenSolaris, IIRC 19:58:09 then remove the linux packages, tweak the installed base package 19:58:12 rebuild EVERYTHING 19:58:13 and voila 19:58:55 you wouldn't need to rebuild things that weren't linking against the kernel or libc, and had no OS-dependent code 19:58:58 there have to be some 19:59:04 ehird, FireFly: what on: http://omploader.org/vMmdlMA 19:59:21 please tell me where the bad stuff is there 19:59:31 AnMaster: note the loading bar. 19:59:40 ehird, yes it never finishes 19:59:43 just stays there 19:59:47 at that point 19:59:56 ehird, even after refresh 19:59:56 then refresh. 19:59:59 then fail. 20:00:16 * ehird wonders what petname is 20:00:26 in what? NetHack? 20:00:33 ehird, see the "unauthicated" at the top? 20:00:36 (only mentioning that because it's pretty similar to a NetHack option name) 20:00:39 basically it remembers ssl certs 20:00:39 in that screenshot, pay attention 20:00:47 AnMaster: uh, what 20:00:49 oh, I don't follow links 20:00:55 so I find it hard to think of them as context 20:01:01 ais523: then stop asking people when they talk about them 20:01:02 ehird, so when I go to my internet bank it verifies the fingerprint is the same. And displays that. 20:01:06 yes I'm paranoid 20:01:09 your personal hangup about clicking links is unique 20:01:16 it gets me out of trouble 20:01:16 AnMaster: firefox does that. 20:01:22 this way has fewer rickrolls 20:01:24 ehird, um, only that cert is valid 20:01:24 ais523: so does /ignore * 20:01:30 ehird, not that it is the same as you stored 20:01:33 except it impairs conversation just the same 20:01:36 so it doesn't change and someone faked it 20:01:38 AnMaster: not in recent versions 20:01:53 ehird, mhm? I had that extension since 3.0 at least 20:02:03 at least in 3.5, I think 20:02:16 ehird, that is firefox 3.0.14 you are looking at 20:02:18 jaunty remember 20:02:20 NOT karmic 20:02:26 there's a 3.5 package in jaunty. 20:02:48 ehird, yes but it is universe or something, not officially supported it says 20:03:00 yes, so're most things 20:03:06 have you noticed that there is no official ubuntu support? 20:03:10 unless you count expensive telephone calls 20:03:18 irc, forums ... none of that is official 20:04:29 -!- deschutron has left (?). 20:04:46 ehird, true 20:06:06 ehird: there is, but you have to pay for it 20:06:19 "unless you count" 20:06:21 I don't see why there'd be official unpaid support if there's official paid suport 20:06:25 are you ignoring random lines as well as links? 20:06:25 ehird: well, I do count that 20:06:31 yes, and nobody uses it 20:06:33 as that's exactly what the official support is 20:06:36 http://imgur.com/CSopO.jpg, outside reddit offices 20:06:39 and I'm relatively sure some people do 20:06:54 when I bought this computer, Dell offered me bundled paid support for Ubuntu if I wanted it 20:07:02 I declined, but there are some people who might accept 20:07:21 and companies would want to accept even more; after all, RHEL is (still) a success in the business world 20:07:28 and it's the same principle there 20:08:49 happy australian mailman reminders day, btw 20:09:11 -!- Asztal has quit (Success). 20:09:25 why is "microsoft update" so much slower for the "checking for updates" step than "windows update" 20:09:26 hm 20:10:24 -!- Asztal has joined. 20:10:37 ehird, sure there is sp 3 for x64 too? 20:10:40 because Microsoft is bigger than Windows? 20:10:48 because no such thing is listed 20:10:56 ais523, well no other MS software installed atm 20:11:08 well,* 20:11:15 really? You have Windows bundled with nothing at all? 20:11:27 I'm pretty sure standard Windows installs have more than bare bones 20:11:46 ais523, hm? well there is IE, but that was updated by windows update too 20:12:19 ais523, this is newly installed windows xp pro x64 20:12:37 AnMaster: does it come with things like Notepad/ 20:12:46 ais523, that is part of windows... 20:12:48 (not that Notepad would likely need much updating...) 20:12:53 ais523, and is updated by windows update 20:12:56 like wordpad too 20:12:59 hmm, ok 20:13:22 ais523, microsoft update updates office and other such "non-bundled" apps. But none of those are installed 20:13:37 maybe it's installing them so it has something to update 20:13:53 :D 20:14:37 ais523, plus I fail to see why it would take any longer than apt-get update followed by the upgrade part that checks for upgrades 20:14:42 heck it should take less 20:14:52 since there are fewer packages, just updates 20:15:09 a text file with last hotpatch level in would be enough 20:26:29 -!- Slereah has joined. 20:33:50 bacj 20:33:50 back 20:33:56 ehird, sure there is sp 3 for x64 too? 20:33:59 duh of course 20:34:00 bach 20:34:28 ehird, odd then that it isn't listed hm 20:34:33 ais523, plus I fail to see why it would take any longer than apt-get update followed by the upgrade part that checks for upgrades 20:34:39 hardware checking, software checking 20:34:41 for compatibility etc 20:34:50 and whether the upgrade is required for this software set 20:34:54 and hardware set 20:35:10 ehird, shouldn't take that long, and you could cache results and such 20:37:28 -!- impomatic has quit ("mov.i #1,1"). 20:37:48 gah 20:37:52 stop imp-bombing #esoteri 20:37:54 *#estoeric 20:37:59 **#esoteric 20:38:28 mov.i #-1,-1 20:38:35 spl -1 20:38:37 there, that'll do 20:38:58 assuming an IP ends up in my code before impomatic's 20:39:19 but imps are hillarious 20:40:56 not when they overwrite the logs 20:41:53 grr, my mouse keeps losing connection 20:41:56 better replace the batteries 20:42:24 I switched to a wired mouse for that reason 20:42:54 they've lasted for at least a month 20:44:05 Wireless mouse with rechargable batteries <3 20:44:23 you still have to charge them. 20:44:24 And charger where you put the mouse when you leave the computer 20:44:36 that only works if you leave the computer :D 20:44:44 True, but I sleep 20:44:44 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:44:48 psht 20:44:49 As opposed to other people here :) 20:45:34 -!- Azstal has joined. 20:46:26 hilarious, I opened shut down dialog to restart XP for upgrade. and after I click ok the "there are uninstalled upgrades, reboot now/later" dialog pops up 20:46:41 to be promptly killed by the shutting down process a few seconds later 20:46:53 Yeah, that's so hilarious. Could never happen in Linux or anything. 20:47:06 of course it *could*, but I never seen it happen 20:47:30 btw what exactly *are* .msc 20:47:37 Thingies. 20:48:01 how do you create one? 20:48:19 Addition to the management console in Windows. If the MMC fails to complete a normal shut down, the SMS.MSC file may be removed from the system. As a result, the shortcut is not found when the Systems Management Server Administrator console is started. See the added into link below for a solution. Note: This file type can become infected and should be carefully scanned if someone sends you a file with this extension. 20:48:32 "management console", I guess. 20:48:41 Well, addon to. 20:48:56 hm 20:49:25 ehird, yes I know that they are "management console" files. I was wondering more like "are they *.dlls basically that are loaded into msc.exe or what"? 20:49:43 the defrag GUI is an example of a *.msc 20:49:46 Who knows? 20:49:50 *an *.msc 20:50:01 Unless you pronounce * "star". 20:50:19 AnMaster: Anyway, run file(1) on one and see. 20:50:36 I'm not sure how to pronounce it at all 20:50:45 "An em ess cee". 20:50:47 if a word actually has no pronunciation, do you use "a" or "an" before it? 20:51:03 my mind reads the *. as something nonverbal when I'm reading to myself 20:51:08 Or, if you're annoying and pedantic: 20:51:10 "An asterisk dot em ess cee". 20:51:10 which is weird, as I normally read text as words 20:51:16 Or 20:51:21 well, the others are stupid 20:51:23 s/asterisk// 20:51:27 and pronounce dot but not the asterisk 20:51:28 also erm 20:51:30 s/asterisk/star/ 20:51:31 I mean 20:52:03 ais523: maybe "a[n] *.msc" is pronounced "an em ess cee file". 20:52:04 :P 20:54:22 incidentally, I did verbalise it as "star dot" when I forced it into words 20:54:30 probably based on the common verbalisation of the DOS idiom *.* 20:55:31 I refer to this place as "esoteric" or, if in a clarifactory (so a word) mood, "the esoteric programming languages channel". Admittedly I don't actually have many chances to mention it IRL. 20:55:48 Well, I mostly say "the esoteric... thi*recognition*ng, right" 20:56:04 If you can use mostly for an occurrence as common as dodos. 20:56:53 Unless you pronounce * "star". <-- no, "thingy" 20:57:02 ehird: so do you often apply clarifaction? 20:57:22 I guess clarificatory is a better word. 20:57:46 a clarificent word 20:57:58 ehird, "an m"? 20:58:01 clarifficient 20:58:15 When speaking of IRC channels in real life, I use "risu-", which I guess is a bit like "hash-". (Though "risu" is a shortening of the word "risuaita" commonly used in Finnish for that character; literally translated it'd be "stick fence" or "twig fence" or something.) 20:58:19 AnMaster: m is pronounced em, so yes, an m. 20:58:27 m-s-c = em ess see. 20:58:38 Msc isn't really pronouncable. Musk doesn't count. 20:58:50 ehird, you can pronounce without vowels 20:58:51 a mess, see? 20:58:53 fizzie: twig fence esoteric 20:58:53 sure, it isn't easy 20:58:59 but it can be done 20:59:07 AnMaster: Thus "isn't really pronounceable". 20:59:11 I add in words for a reason, guys. 20:59:17 ehird: Maybe I'll start using "twig-" in English; that's bound to be confusing enough. 20:59:42 irc ball freenode ball net ... what's /? 20:59:45 spear! 20:59:45 "The other day on twig-esoteric, ehird was waggling his eyebrows." (Sorry, I couldn't figure out any more realistic event.) 21:00:01 hmm... what's :? 21:00:15 irc ? double-twig irc ball freenode ball net spear twig esoteric 21:00:27 Technically it should be irc://irc.freenode.net/esoteric without the twig, but eh. 21:00:36 the next day, he was haggling his eyeballs 21:00:36 For your convenience: 21:00:39 * ehird waggles eyebrows 21:00:40 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:00:40 I guess you mean double-spear there. 21:00:45 Erm, yes. 21:01:07 those are stairs 21:01:28 > and < are stairs. 21:01:33 heh 21:01:47 ais523: what are :, / and # in Nethack? 21:01:49 ><> ><> 21:01:56 Newt, wand, and wall 21:01:58 first one's newt, isn't it 21:01:58 ha 21:02:12 Well, all newtlikes 21:02:15 Deewiant: does . have a name? 21:02:27 or is it just ... ground 21:02:27 Gecko and some others 21:02:27 ehird: Floor? 21:02:49 ehird: commands, or on the ground? 21:02:56 ground 21:02:56 I don't think any of the characters have official Nethack names :-P 21:02:59 as commands: look here, describe glyph, extended command 21:03:14 on the ground: reptile (most commonly a newt), wand, and corridor 21:03:19 erm 21:03:21 ah 21:03:23 well, other things than corridors are possible too for # 21:03:25 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 21:03:26 but corridors are the most common 21:03:27 so does . have a name on the ground? :P 21:03:37 ehird: use ; to look at it 21:03:38 and you'll find out 21:03:43 it's something complicated 21:03:44 I don't have nethack open 21:03:47 wait, newts are not reptiles 21:03:56 like "floor or ice or a drawbridge or ..." 21:04:05 irc reptile double-wand irc floor freenode floor net wand corridor esoteric 21:04:06 oerjan: sorry, amphibian 21:04:08 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:04:13 irc amphibian double-wand irc floor freenode floor net wand corridor esoteric 21:04:16 eh 21:04:17 irc newt double-wand irc floor freenode floor net wand corridor esoteric 21:04:18 sounds better 21:04:21 well, either in NetHack, it's not all that picky 21:04:27 ehird@ehird-desktop:~$ nethack 21:04:27 The program 'nethack' can be found in the following packages: 21:04:27 * nethack-console 21:04:27 * nethack-qt 21:04:27 * nethack-x11 21:04:28 Try: sudo apt-get install 21:04:32 nethack: command not found 21:04:35 I'm kind of offended it considers the others acceptable alternatives 21:04:39 And if you want the full list for S_LIZARD: newt, gecko, iguana, baby crocodile, lizard, chameleon, crocodile, salamander. 21:04:42 ehird: they're all the console version 21:04:45 10 reboots and still not done yet. God-fucking-damn windows update 21:04:48 the other two have graphical versions in the same binary 21:04:55 but are console by default unless opened via the GUI 21:05:00 also, nethack-qt's GUI is broken 21:05:09 i don't care, unless the two others have become way better recently it's sacrelidge 21:05:10 so you only have one viable alternative for graphical play 21:05:14 *sacrilege 21:05:21 also, how is it broken? 21:05:31 heh, it even uses qt3 21:05:31 let me get a screenshot for you, it'll be obvious from that 21:05:32 LIKE A DINOSAUR 21:05:39 fizzie: what, no raptors? 21:05:47 ais523, what does the GTK one look like? 21:06:04 Wow, Qt 3's default theme is ugly 21:06:10 AnMaster: who said it has one? 21:06:21 AnMaster: it used to use athena widgets 21:06:23 oh wait 21:06:25 x11 21:06:26 not gtk 21:06:28 it became unmaintained for that reason and was dropped 21:06:28 ugh, the qt tiles are really ugly 21:06:32 X11 is also athena, but saner 21:06:33 was so used to qt vs. gtk 21:06:42 ais523, I quite like the qt one here 21:06:42 like unreadably 21:06:56 well the console one is obviously better 21:07:01 but qt one could be worse 21:07:18 there: http://imgur.com/6jeoK.png 21:07:50 doesn't happen for me 21:07:51 AnMaster: presumably your version actually works, then 21:08:04 ehird: ah, you installed nethack-qt? 21:08:07 ais523, the default font is way to large you have to change it to saner 21:08:07 ais523: aargh, why is your applications menu indented? 21:08:09 maybe they actually fixed that problem 21:08:10 that totally breaks fitt's law 21:08:18 ehird: there's a button in the top-left 21:08:19 your show desktop and trash too 21:08:22 that I use more than the menu itself 21:08:27 what does it do? 21:08:34 I took all the decoration off the button to save space 21:08:38 so it just looks like a blank space 21:08:39 hides it? 21:08:41 and hides the panel 21:08:49 so I can fit programs into a larger space 21:08:50 right, I you do indeed have truly anemic screen space. 21:08:54 s/I // 21:08:56 (most commonly I use that for battle for wesnoth) 21:08:57 ehird, you can't get gnome to show the hide panel on only *ONE* side 21:09:07 you can with KDE 3 btw 21:09:08 who cares, both panels are valuable 21:09:32 oh my god 21:09:34 nethack-x11 21:09:35 the colours 21:09:36 MY EYES 21:09:37 ehird, hm I have hide ones too 21:09:40 ehird, screenshot 21:10:18 oops, forgot to start dropbox 21:10:30 Speaking of nethack, are they still making Falcon's Eye, or did they replace that with some other project or something? 21:10:38 AnMaster: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nethack-x11.png 21:10:46 hm 21:10:49 it isn't syncing 21:10:50 *hmm 21:10:51 fizzie: Vulture's is a fork that's more recently developed 21:10:53 sec 21:10:56 fizzie: Didn't it die like 10 years ago? 21:11:16 Deewiant: No, there's a newspost from 2002. 21:11:26 7, then. 21:11:28 sec 21:11:34 Close enough 21:11:39 What, is it 2009 already? 21:11:52 Unfortunately 21:12:00 I have a "starts with 2, must be recent" reflex. 21:12:06 AnMaster: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2164436/2009-09/nethack-x11.png 21:12:20 Yep, me too, somewhat. 21:12:37 and I forgot to blur my highly-sensitive taskbar of a submission from reddit, two people, IRC and some terminals! 21:12:45 ehird, are you 100% sure that there is SP3 for XP x64? 21:12:58 Windows XP x64 SP3 21:12:58 5 posts - 4 authors - Last post: 9 Mar 21:12:58 Actually you can install SP3 on x64 versions and if you use either WindowsUpdate or MicrosoftUpdate you will be prompted to install it ... 21:13:01 64-Bit Windows XP Service Pack 3? - Don't think so... at least for ... 21:13:02 14 Dec 2007 ... SP3 for Windows XP x64 = SP3 for Windows Server 2003, because Windows XP x64 is based on Windows Server 2003 and not on Windows XP 32bits. ... 21:13:14 PEOPLE ARE CONFLICTED 21:13:24 ehird: that nethack-x11 looks just like mine 21:13:27 ehird, it seems you just listed three different opinions 21:13:34 pretty ugly and not particularly usable, in other words 21:13:44 AnMaster: Two google results. 21:13:46 ehird, and it isn't listed on windows update or microsoft update 21:13:49 also it has an annoying problem with the keyboard controls 21:13:55 wow, the nethack-x11 tiles are really tiny 21:14:04 NetHack has swappable tilesets 21:14:14 there are larger better-looking ones, but it's a pain to figure out how to use them 21:15:04 I'll stick to my current strategy, which is not playing NetHack :P 21:16:36 ehird, what is wrong with console? 21:16:44 Nothing. 21:17:01 I would have assumed AnMaster would use nethack-el+nethack-lisp. 21:17:19 fizzie, I use just plain nethack in facrt 21:17:21 fact* 21:17:23 Farct. 21:17:39 TAEB should be rewritten to use nethack-el, because of WHY GOD WHY. 21:18:01 wouldn't work on existing public servers 21:18:03 which is the whole point 21:18:09 WHY 21:18:10 GOD 21:18:10 WHY 21:18:19 context? 21:18:29 Just horrific :P 21:18:35 Due to, you know, Emacs Lisp. 21:18:37 And Emacs. 21:18:39 "# All the beauty that comes with Emacs" --nethack-el features lis 21:18:41 *list 21:18:45 I hope they don't mean cosmetically... 21:19:01 I've been using the console variant with IBMgraphics, though I don't really play. 21:19:35 how far have you got? 21:19:38 Occasionally I pick up nethack and think, yeah, I can totally play this for years and years and finally ascend, I'm up for that kind of long-term project 21:19:45 and them I'm like fuck it, this is just dragging on 21:19:46 *then 21:19:48 I 21:19:57 can't type "'", apparently. 21:20:01 :D 21:20:53 Does anyone use nethack-lisp directly, I wonder. 21:20:58 Like, in a console, with the Lisp. 21:21:11 I've been to the bottom of the Gehennom a couple of times, sort-of casually walking around. 21:21:37 :D 21:21:40 "Hey dudes, what's hanging?" 21:21:45 "I'm just here to mull about." 21:22:03 I find it interesting that the owner of gehennom.org "doesn't really play". :P 21:22:35 I just had trouble inventing a sensible domain name to register. 21:22:59 After all, I've been the owner of befunge.org too, and I don't really write befunge either. I mean, in a serious fashion. 21:23:05 heikkikallasjoki.org sounds memorable and obvious to me! 21:23:20 You poor Swedes and your inability to name sanely anything after yourself. :P 21:23:22 ... 21:23:22 Finns. 21:23:24 I used to have a nethack-themed 404 page in gehennom.org, maybe that counts. 21:23:28 why did I type swedes. 21:23:47 oh right, sweden is finland. 21:23:48 forgot. 21:26:49 I seem to have a ~/.nethackrc.console; I didn't know (or remember, anyway) that that sort of suffix notation existed. 21:27:29 i wish nethack would remember my settings. 21:27:33 err 21:27:34 enigma 21:27:57 Also. 21:27:59 21:27:59 huh 21:30:44 ais523: Experimental#4, bash yourself and the white ball into the portal 21:30:45 wheee 21:31:15 they should change the scroll mode, as it messes up actual testing 21:31:43 hmmm... it has oxyds, right? 21:31:45 so it might be solvable 21:33:34 you can't get at the ones behind the glass 21:33:39 well, wall 21:33:44 actually, if it is glass (I can't remember) 21:33:48 you might be able to use a laser and mirrors 21:33:50 isn't there another stone to do that :) 21:34:23 what, make a stone into glass? 21:34:31 well, just to hit them 21:34:40 st_spitter 21:34:45 I just had trouble inventing a sensible domain name to register. <-- you own "gehennom.org"? 21:34:48 i mean, hit the oxyds 21:34:53 it's powered by extralives but there's an extralife dispenser on there somewhere 21:34:57 AnMaster: Yes. 21:35:00 right 21:35:05 OTOH, hitting at that range would be a pain 21:35:16 I used is as my "default domain" before registering this zem.fi thing. 21:35:32 ais523: would be pretty impressive to win the level, though 21:35:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:35:57 st_spitter <-- huh? Not in last release? 21:36:06 * ehird wonders wtf Pentomino I is 21:36:10 AnMaster: 1.01 21:36:14 AnMaster: it is I think, I may have the name wrong though 21:36:15 * AnMaster hopes windows 7 download works now 21:36:16 it's in 1.01 too 21:36:22 although with a different animation 21:36:25 ais523, well I might have 1.0 or so 21:36:29 ais523, what does the object to 21:36:31 do* 21:36:47 you hit it and it shoots a cannonball 21:36:51 which destroys floor and opens oxtds 21:36:54 *oxyds 21:36:57 fizzie, how was http://gehennom.org/doc/knock/ generated? 21:36:58 doing so costs extralives 21:37:10 docbook, AnMaster 21:37:12 they layout seems VERY VERY familiar 21:37:12 see the source 21:37:23 the linux documentation project uses it and stuff. 21:37:31 and i think debian install guides 21:37:31 > NAME="GENERATOR" 21:37:32 CONTENT="Modular DocBook HTML Stylesheet Version 1.79"> and all that stuff 21:37:33 ARGH 21:37:37 it is like that all the time 21:37:39 what the hell 21:37:41 AnMaster: for whitespace 21:37:46 21:37:46 21:37:49 there's whitespace between those in HTML 21:37:51 this can mess up CSS etc 21:37:55 also preformatted stuff 21:37:55 hm 21:37:59 basically, generating html is a bitch 21:38:01 and this makes it simpler 21:38:20 ehird, no newlines at all? 21:38:32 that's uglier, but easier. 21:38:36 then again they don't indent 21:38:41 so it is pretty silly. 21:38:46 *it *is* 21:38:59 err 21:39:03 how was that correction? 21:39:07 Yes, it's done with DocBook. 21:39:11 " so *it *is pretty silly." 21:39:14 huh? 21:39:18 AnMaster: * starts a correction. 21:39:28 ehird, both usages are common 21:39:30 use levenshtein distance or something to find out what to correct ;P 21:39:32 *:P 21:39:37 AnMaster: what, just typing the correction? 21:39:41 oh, I see 21:39:42 ending with * 21:39:43 err 21:39:44 no, it's not 21:39:44 ehird, yeah 21:39:46 only you use that in here 21:39:47 yes it is 21:39:49 maybe swedes do it a lot 21:39:52 but definitely not on english irc 21:39:53 ehird, well I mean overall on irc 21:39:58 in English channels 21:39:58 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 21:39:59 too 21:40:12 yes, but not english natives presumably 21:40:12 I've never seen anyone use it but you 21:40:13 maybe not as much on freenode 21:41:53 ais523: Espirit#13 makes me want to make a level where if you move right once, it solves itself 21:41:53 but is really hard otherwise 21:42:30 but still possible? 21:42:34 yes 21:42:37 better still, the self-solution should be slower than the hard one 21:42:41 just a real pain to maneuver 21:43:03 ais523: agreed, although that destroys the beauty of "par 2:47, record 0:07" 21:43:23 ah, I see what you mean 21:43:44 I mean, it'd be full of it trying to move against you, so naturally if you went right and started to move you'd resist 21:43:47 you could do that simply with a massive dexterity-trick at the start, but disguising that would be more tricky 21:43:50 so it would be quite hard to find 21:44:38 yes, but not english natives presumably <-- one of them is admittedly an Australian... 21:44:49 ohhh snap 21:44:56 that was actually a good one :/ 21:45:20 you could do that simply with a massive dexterity-trick at the start, but disguising that would be more tricky 21:45:22 what do you mean by this, btw? 21:45:29 something that's very hard to do 21:45:30 ehird, it is always fun to poke fun at au English 21:45:32 :P 21:45:37 i mean 21:45:41 by moving the mouse a certain way 21:45:42 how does it disguise what 21:45:52 the idea would be you could skip a portion of the level by doing something crazy at the start 21:45:57 but that that would be hard to disguise 21:46:00 as anything other than what it was 21:46:47 * ehird wonders if anyone has noticed a cheat in 0.92-1#46 21:47:00 have you? 21:47:04 yes 21:47:31 possibly not, that's a weird level to want to look for shortcuts in 21:47:44 get all oxyds but one, kill yourself, hit the last one 21:47:58 oh, that's not considered cheating, it's a standard technique 21:48:07 but it means you can get 0:01 21:48:34 or does the bottom left timer not reflect total time? 21:49:01 killing yourself has a delay of a bit over a second 21:49:07 in both realtime and timer time (which is meant to be the same) 21:49:17 there is an exploit on timer time, it involves holding down ESC 21:49:41 but it isn't useful in most levels 21:49:41 the world record is 0:06 21:49:46 so you can get like 0:03 21:49:46 only those that look at the realtime clock for some reason 21:50:00 anyway, why would you think you can get all oxyd-pairs but one? 21:50:12 what you're suggesting sounds like a legit way to get a world record 21:50:17 so you could set a new record, if it worked 21:50:31 hit every oxyd but one, kill yourself, dash to it 21:50:40 you can take as long as you want before killing yourself 21:50:44 no? 21:50:49 killing yourself doesn't reset the timer 21:50:50 why would it? 21:51:03 hmm 21:51:05 it did previously 21:51:09 oh, possibly i lost all my lives the first time 21:51:09 heh 21:51:13 resetting the level resets the timer 21:51:16 which happens when you run out of lives 21:51:19 right 21:51:48 dying without a level reset penalises you about 1 second by freezing your movements (leaving the level running), then you respawn with the timer at its current value 21:52:02 and some levels are set to reset whenever you die, in which case extralives are only useful for blocking lasers 21:52:17 finding out whether that setting's on or off is one of the first things I do on a level 21:52:27 that I don't know about 21:52:30 (by experiment) 21:53:10 does 0.92-1#106 have to be so loud? 21:54:06 ais523, btw in http://imgur.com/6jeoK.png (just noticed that tab open) what the hell is up with the tiles 21:54:18 what about them 21:54:27 they look like garbage text 21:54:27 which ones 21:54:30 rather than the qt ones 21:54:33 AnMaster: beats me, what the hell is up with anything else there? 21:54:38 what titles? 21:54:46 oh tiles 21:54:48 also, the showpet heart shows as a heart, so it is trying to do tiles a bit 21:54:49 ehird, I never said titles 21:54:55 even though it's mostly broken ASCII by the look of it 21:55:06 wrong charset 21:55:39 ais523, mine here looks like fairly sane small tiles 21:55:39 rather than weird text 21:55:52 par of 0.92-1#126 is 15s, ridiculous 21:56:02 AnMaster: noticed the top of the window? 21:56:06 the whole point is that it's broken for ais523 21:56:36 AnMaster: noticed the top of the window? <-- you mean those overlapping "titles"? 21:56:39 well yes 21:56:46 that happens here too at default font size 22:01:00 huh why "IANALAIDPOOTV". Supposedly it means "I Am Not A Lawyer And I Don't Play One On TV" but I don't get the joke about the TV bit... 22:01:36 I, Ana, Laid Poo TV. 22:02:21 ...? 22:02:21 I, anal aid, poot the fifth. 22:03:02 so should I interpret this as no one having a clue what the joke is? 22:03:17 Interpret it how you want, but I'll say one thing and that's whoosh. 22:03:49 there's not much point in whooshing people who know a joke exists but don't get it, and say so 22:03:53 ehird, what has laywers in some film got to do with anything 22:04:00 ais523, yeah 22:04:01 that's like saying "You say you know a joke exists but you don't get it? well, you don't get it!" 22:04:02 You amuse me AnMaster. 22:04:09 ais523: he could have used google 22:04:11 I know you're alien to this concept. 22:04:12 you amuse me ehird, in that particular line 22:04:28 ehird, I *googled* for this "IANALAIDPOOTV" which is why I found out what it meant 22:04:34 but I was unable go get further 22:04:41 lol. 22:04:59 it's a reference to a joke. 22:05:02 ais523, do you get the joke? If so could you please help. 22:05:09 lament, what one? 22:05:15 I don't 22:05:26 * ehird twiddles thumbs 22:05:27 AnMaster: google for "but I play one on TV" 22:05:37 WHAT 22:05:39 That's a shocking idea 22:05:39 * AnMaster waits for ehird to say "woosh" at ais523 22:05:45 How can you ever have thought of that, lament. 22:05:47 AnMaster: you misspelt "whoosh" 22:06:03 lament, ok. didn't know that was the original joke 22:06:24 because I did try "And I Don't Play One On TV" too 22:07:10 in your defense, neither the original joke nor the "AIDPOOTV" come-back are funny 22:07:20 funniness is totally unrelated to recognition 22:07:24 so it's hard to understand what they're about 22:08:43 -!- gergely has joined. 22:08:55 " funniness is totally unrelated to recognition" <-- and how would one recognise those if one had no clue what to recognise? 22:08:55 -!- gergely has left (?). 22:09:14 you clearly had some clue because you asked 22:10:06 ehird, deduction by logic: It didn't make sense if it wasn't a reference or joke. 22:10:19 but I had no clue *what* reference or *what* joke 22:11:38 it's makes about as much sense as me attacking you for not being able to recognise a 5 second piece of music as (for example): Hadyn, early period 22:12:07 AnMaster is offended! 22:12:17 ehird, um no? 22:12:28 irritated yes, offended no 22:30:49 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 22:30:51 -!- puzzlet has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:08:12 7.0G windows7.vdi 23:08:27 that is a clean install "rebooting from install" 23:08:37 funny? yes 23:13:10 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 23:17:47 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:25:42 -!- Sgeo has joined. 23:29:20 hm it hit 7.1 GB before desktop showed up 23:36:53 "The article failed to mention his enthusiastic support of nuclear power and how he is going to be meeting with world leaders to get more nuclear plants purchased and built. Essentially, he'll be hawking radiation." 23:37:34 Sgeo, who? 23:37:47 Stephen Hawking. (Also, that quote was a joke) 23:37:50 http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=4668974 23:38:13 oh right 23:38:55 well to be hawking radiation you first have to jump into a black hole 23:39:48 i thought, to be hawking radiation you first have to spontaneously appear from vacuum just outside of a black hole? 23:42:46 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:45:03 -!- jix has joined. 23:45:06 back 23:45:22 7.0G windows7.vdi 23:45:22 that is a clean install "rebooting from install" 23:45:22 funny? yes 23:45:25 what's funny 23:54:42 lament: i am using be in the "become" sense here 23:56:12 and also, jumping into vs. turning into radiation just outside are just different ways of looking at the same phenomenon, iiuc 23:57:08 since for example time dilation at the horizon w.r.t. the outside universe is infinite 23:59:12 so actually jumping into a black hole you'd just die due to being ripped apart, correct? 23:59:17 i don't really know anything about black holes 23:59:35 ehird: yes :( 23:59:48 so, say you had a pod you could put around you, God gave it to you 23:59:55 it stops you being ripped apart, the laws of physics be damned 23:59:58 I jump into a black hole