00:02:46 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:05:22 Has anyone tried OS/2? 00:22:50 [00:40:16] "tab bars on the bottom" made me think of http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif 00:22:54 Slightly confusing UI there 00:27:07 ehird95, doesn't Anonym.OS pretend to be Win98? 00:27:51 Sgeo: What relevance has this statement? 00:28:09 That some websites see Win98 in their statistics 00:28:12 On occasion 00:28:23 (All those "lol sekurity" distros are retarded; single point of failure? You fail at security! Create this single point just to install Tor and GPG? You fail at life!) 00:28:28 Sgeo: Yes, but Windows 95? 00:28:58 If "Windows 98" is a reasonable thing to pretend to be, why not Win95? Maybe there still are a few 95 users out there 00:29:25 "the system is designed to look like Windows XP SP1" 00:29:35 Oh 00:29:38 I was mistaken 00:29:40 Using Anonym.OS is probably rarer than using 95, anyway. 00:30:13 But yes, there are, at least, two non-hermitty, internetty, savvy people who use 95 as their operating system. 00:30:27 (by choice) 00:31:15 "tab bars on the bottom" made me think of http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif <-- what the fuck 00:31:39 Make that at least three. 00:31:42 http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewtab.gif <-- not quite as bad 00:31:47 I estimate at least 30-50 people. 00:32:01 (are sane, savvy, non-hermitty, internetty and use windows 95 as their main os by choice) 00:32:11 AnMaster: are you serious? 00:32:18 it'd take five years just to go through every preference 00:32:36 ehird95, "quite as bad, visually, as the first screenshot" 00:32:38 congratulations, now every single pixel is coloured to your specification, what's the app meant to be for again :P 00:32:41 AnMaster: well yeah 00:32:55 and yeah what is the app for 00:33:03 The first one only counts if there are additional tabs with upside down text below those fields. :D 00:33:14 AnMaster: It's an app for configuration. 00:33:23 You configure how you can configure it. 00:33:45 For instance, you could turn those tabs into a list at the side in "User interface". 00:34:26 You configure how you can configure it. <-- so you can configure it while you configure it? 00:34:33 Paul sent us this image of the Options dialog from MultiEdit 8.0. To date, we consider this the definitive example of how not to design a tabbed dialog. The sheer number of tabs, combined with the use of iconic labels and the gratuitous use of graphics on the tabs themselves results in a veritable visual assault. Once your eyes recover from the initial assault, you may be able to spot another problem: the use of nested tabs (note that two separate tabs on t 00:34:34 is the latter 00:35:00 they even redesigned it themselves: http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewredo.gif 00:35:04 (the posters of it) 00:35:14 which is, err, still far too many preferences, but stil 00:35:16 *still 00:35:39 * FireFly thinks lots of options is good when the options dialog has a search box 00:35:40 "While it is our belief that the proliferation of configuration options in MultiEdit has far exceeded the point of diminishing returns" 00:35:45 oh snap we think alike yes we do 00:36:06 they even redesigned it themselves: http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mewredo.gif <-- relatively speaking, quite acceptable 00:36:13 FireFly: i respect your opinion, just please never contribute to any software i might want to use :P 00:36:19 AnMaster: yep, it's a good redesign 00:36:42 I'd still probably take one look at the category list and install something else, though... 00:36:50 but seriously what is the software for 00:36:57 I assume that " AnMaster: It's an app for configuration. You configure how you can configure it." was a joke 00:37:13 Sounds like some text editor 00:37:22 Based on what stuff in the image says 00:37:30 FireFly, but what about http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/mlstab.gif then 00:37:32 Blocks, file extensions like c 00:37:33 same site 00:37:45 Well yeah, that just looks pretty confusing 00:37:47 http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/ (old frameset'd site; click Hall of Shame). 00:37:52 It's a user interface, well, hall of shame. 00:37:57 Presumably from the Tabs category. 00:38:04 "Isys Information Architects Inc. specializes in the design and development of robust, highly usable information systems. Isys focuses on ease of use, recognizing that software" 00:38:07 ahahaha 00:38:26 eh cut off... 00:38:32 "...should assist the user in the performance of some task rather than becoming a task in itself. " 00:38:45 What about it? 00:38:47 ehird95, you can still copy the link Hall of Shame points to 00:38:57 though maybe not with whatever browser you're running on your -95 00:39:03 AnMaster: they didn't design those UIs. 00:39:07 AnMaster: It's in their Hall of Shame. 00:39:11 ehird95, oh ok 00:39:15 I see 00:39:18 You know, where they mock bad UIs. 00:39:22 FireFly: that misses the sidebar 00:39:25 which has the categories 00:39:30 of which I wanted to point to Tabs 00:39:34 anyway, I'm using SeaMonke 00:39:36 *SeaMonkey 00:39:47 which works perfectly well 00:40:00 Ah, that's fine, I guess 00:40:06 Not some ancient IE at least 00:40:22 FireFly: I have, in fact, expunged all parts of IE apart from the actual mshtml DLLs. 00:40:54 This win95 box, is it a vbox, toy computer or something random you just found lying around? 00:40:54 If I do an installation on real hardware those would go too; who uses .chm on 95? :P 00:40:58 ...or something else? :P 00:40:59 vbox 00:41:01 Ah 00:41:20 But I like this enough that a temptation is growing in me to buy an old tiny ThinkPad for fun purpose. 00:41:22 *purposes 00:41:29 * FireFly has an old ThinkPad here 00:41:34 Gimme :P 00:41:43 Heh 00:41:47 Gmail works fine. Admittedly it is running on a Core 2 Duo, but still, only 64MiB RAM. 00:41:49 My father threw out the old one 00:41:53 And we're talking a Mozilla Suite descendent here. 00:41:53 Which had 48M RAM 00:41:56 And 00:41:59 Well 00:42:11 Appropriately low-speccy processor 00:42:17 i'll pay you five million bux 00:42:18 gimme 00:42:22 :-P 00:42:24 It actually ran DSL pretty fast 00:42:36 I have some sort of urge to acquire all the retro hardware in the world, ever 00:42:49 Surely the enjoyment scale is linear? 00:42:51 You'll find it hard to realise that dream :P 00:43:15 http://homepage.mac.com/bradster/iarchitect/images/olxerr.gif <-- Confusing error messages <3 00:45:13 FireFly: No but seriously, what old ThinkPad is it? I'm not so clued up on the old old ThPads despite looking at a bunch of new relatively ones. 00:45:16 sigh 00:45:17 system froze 00:45:32 95 is so smooth when it's... smooth :P 00:47:27 Well, this isn't the 48M one, sadly enough 00:47:29 Hm 00:47:44 It says "570" next to the thinkpad logo when I open it at least 00:48:01 Wow, so before the letter-series. 00:48:06 Other than that.. I can't find any useful info, not even on the bottom 00:48:19 FireFly: That thing is ooooooold. 00:48:24 Well okay not that old. 00:48:31 "Intel Mobile Pentium II 300, 333 or 366 CPU" 00:48:33 Mobile Pentium II 300/333/366 00:48:35 Snap 00:48:36 :P 00:48:46 Oh, a whopping 64M RAM 00:48:49 12" 800x600 or 13" 1024x768, 64MiB RAM, 4/6.4GB HD... 00:48:59 I think we're reading the same infobox 00:49:06 ThinkWiki. 00:49:07 P 00:49:09 :P 00:49:11 Yep 00:49:22 I kinda have my eyes on the svelte http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:X20, but it's oh-so-overpowered for 95 and its ilk. 00:49:28 A whole 500 muhurtz. 00:49:43 :) 00:50:05 A laptop loses its usefulness if you can't run it without the cord plugged in 00:50:21 Which are we referring to here 00:50:29 FireFly: you can make it into a digital picture frame 00:50:30 The X20 does have a battery... 00:50:39 the one I have in front of me 00:50:42 Presumably so does the 570 00:50:47 I think the battery is quite dead or something like that 00:50:49 Ah. 00:50:54 I mean 00:51:01 Makes a decent computery computer, though. 00:51:02 The computer hasn't been used in about a decade 00:51:12 Except from a couple of times the last few years 00:52:26 How can you have a nice x86-compat and not be using it all the time. My brain doesn't even have the logical formalizations to express such a concept :P 00:53:39 night → 01:03:39 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:57:12 -!- ehird95 has quit. 02:06:24 -!- ehird95 has joined. 02:34:55 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:01:33 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 03:19:18 -!- ehird95 has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 03:56:57 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:14:28 -!- sebbu has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:28 -!- fungot has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:29 -!- fizzie has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:29 -!- Deewiant has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:29 -!- AnMaster has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 04:14:29 -!- fizzie` has joined. 04:14:36 -!- Deewiant has joined. 04:14:45 -!- AnMaster has joined. 04:14:54 -!- sebbu has joined. 04:54:41 -!- lament has left (?). 05:33:29 -!- pikhq has quit (pratchett.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 05:36:16 -!- pikhq has joined. 05:44:34 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:45:32 so what kind of hardware do you need to serve 50 200 kb files over http per second? 05:46:49 A system with at least 10MB RAM and an Ethernet port? 05:47:13 ... 05:48:17 200 Kb or 200 KB? 05:48:46 kilobytes 05:48:53 That's 8MBps. 05:49:05 You'd be hard-pressed to find a network stack slower than that. 05:49:09 that's a lot 05:49:44 So, a C64 with an Ethernet port, then. 05:49:55 oh come on 05:50:35 With a C64 your disk is mayhaps going to be too slow. Idonno how slow they were, but pretty slow. 05:50:45 With anything from a Tandy up, you're probably A-OK 05:50:49 Gregor: The disk was absurdly slow. 05:51:03 But a C64 can at least drive the Ethernet port sufficiently fast. 05:51:06 (... barely.) 05:51:44 The question wasn't what kind of "networking hardware" you'd need, it was what kind of "hardware" you need. 05:51:54 8 megabytes/second is not trivial 05:54:11 But a C64 can do it. 05:54:53 you might not even be able to get that through 100megabit ethernet with overhead 05:55:10 Oh, bytes, not bits. XD 05:55:49 Yeah, you need 100 megabit Ethernet for that. And believe me, you can get that through with overhead. 05:59:30 I assumed 100mbit from the start. 05:59:44 But then, I challenge you to find a 10mbit ethernet card nowadays :P 06:00:10 i don't have any other hosts up on this network to try 06:02:00 * pikhq has a few 06:03:00 nc a gigabyte or so 06:11:13 ... 06:39:06 -!- deschutron has joined. 06:42:05 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:49:53 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:52:41 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:33:27 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 08:43:01 i don't believe in hardware 08:52:37 and indexing is a stupid concept 08:52:52 i mean for arrays, also for databases, but for different reasons 08:55:34 even c++ iterators are prettier than code that uses arrays with indices. 08:55:54 maybe it's the fact numbers are involved 08:55:57 i hate numbers 08:56:00 who doesn't, i guess 08:56:14 also i do like number theory, i find that slightly weird 08:57:41 although the basic number theory course i am on now is basically practical group & field theory 08:57:46 o 08:57:46 o 08:57:46 o 08:57:46 o 08:57:47 o 08:57:48 o 08:57:50 o 08:57:52 o 08:57:54 o 08:57:56 this is a very weird morning 08:59:46 -!- MigoMipo has changed nick to migomipo. 09:15:30 i would guess the thing you don't like about numbers is the symbols 09:23:27 well i do hate base 10 09:24:08 for algorithms, the problem with indexes is they make the logic of an algorithm hard to follow 09:29:04 *indices 09:29:19 which i'm fine with, usually, except when i'm trying to actually read code 09:37:27 i see 09:45:47 decided to check all the sorting algos on the wp list, actually bumped into a few new ones 09:46:01 anyway there was a haskell implementation on strand sort, that was refreshing 09:49:39 heh also bumped into one of our professors 09:49:49 -!- FireFly has joined. 09:50:34 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:51:36 told another prof the other day i saw him in wp, he told me "yeah, seen it, should probably rewrite that crap some day" 09:54:01 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 10:10:51 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:25:25 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Jerry. 10:27:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:51:29 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:52:08 -!- sebbu has joined. 11:00:42 -!- migomipo has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds). 11:07:24 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:48:21 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 12:26:42 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:29:12 I assumed 100mbit from the start. 12:29:29 I assumed 100mbit from the start. 12:29:45 what the heck 12:30:25 also, 0.1 bits is not much 12:40:01 -!- rodgort has quit (Client Quit). 12:40:11 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:57:53 -!- kar8nga has joined. 13:02:28 not even a bit much, if you ask me 13:03:08 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 13:30:50 -!- oerjan has quit ("Later"). 14:15:06 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:41:22 oklofog, :D 14:41:37 err 14:41:41 oerjan :D 14:41:42 I meant 15:03:00 -!- Pthing has joined. 15:11:39 -!- Azstal has joined. 15:19:48 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:46:35 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:52:07 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 15:52:15 #lojban 15:52:21 No, /join disappeared :( 15:53:28 -!- Asztal has joined. 15:55:56 -!- clog has quit (^C). 15:55:56 -!- clog has quit (ended). 15:56:05 -!- clog has joined. 15:56:05 -!- clog has joined. 15:56:35 i just bought my cll 16:06:30 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:07:32 -!- Asztal^_^ has joined. 16:08:21 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:23:40 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 16:23:55 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:29:52 -!- deschutron has left (?). 16:39:37 oklofog: Number theory - Basics of Diffie-Hellman: Known parameters: g and p. Alice generates 0 < a < p, computes A = (g^a) mod p and sends A. Bob generates 0 < b < p, computes B = (g^b) mod p and sends B. Now Alice can compute S1 = (B^a) mod p and Bob can compute S2 = (A^b) mod p. Now, S1 = S2 if all goes properly. 16:41:04 oklofog, cll? 16:41:08 If p is prime so that p - 1 has large prime factor and order of g is large mod p, then with very high probablilty calculating a from A, b from B or S1 or S2 from A and B is difficult. 16:44:45 oklofog: Another way to look at it: If kG is defined to be G + G + ... + G (k G's), G is element of some group: Alice generates 0 < a < orderof(G), computes A = aG and sends A. Bob generates 0 < b < orderof(G), computes B = bG and sends B. Now Alice can compute S1 = aB and Bob can compute S2 = bA. Now if all goes well, S1 = S2. 16:52:36 oh great ubuntu: "Please insert a blank cd." <-- yeah I did, it claims there isn't though... Time for cd record 16:54:45 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 16:58:13 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:00:32 yay k3b works 17:06:43 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 17:12:31 After burning a cd that I selected to verify...: Didn't find media in drive. Please insert media. [load] [eject] [force] [cancel] 17:12:36 I wonder what "force" does 17:13:02 oh btw the reason that it just didn't pull it back in itself is that this is a laptop drive 17:18:46 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 17:22:00 -!- ais523 has joined. 17:23:28 Ilari: in other words discrete logarithm is suspected to not belong to FP 17:23:36 *not to 17:23:50 AnMaster: complete language of lojban 17:26:33 also i don't know diffie-hellman, we have a separate set of cryptography courses for that stuff 17:26:46 which i haven't done yet 17:26:56 -!- adam_d has joined. 17:27:19 well, they mentioned discrete logarithm is hard to do, but i knew that beforehand 17:32:31 -!- augur has joined. 17:50:37 oklofog, FP? 17:50:44 Floating Point? 17:51:28 Functional Polynomial Time 17:51:43 ah 17:57:44 FP: f(x,y) -> boolean, solve for y such that f(x,y) is true, is in FP if there is determisitic polynomial time algorithm that for every x: 1) f(x,y) is solvable in polynomial time, 2) If there exists y such that f(x,y) is true, output some such y, 3) If there is no y such that f(x,y) is true, output that there's no solution. 17:58:34 Idea is: Functions evaluable in polynomial time where there may be more output than just single boolean. 18:00:52 -!- deschutron has joined. 18:00:53 oklofog: Difficulty of group discrete logarithm varies from very easy to ~sqrt(|G|) work (which becomes too hard if |G| >~ 2^160...). 18:02:13 For Z_p*, with p - 1 having at least one large enough factor, the discrete log problem is approximately as hard as factoring numbers on order of p. 18:02:37 *prime factor 18:05:42 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 18:06:34 -!- rodgort has quit (Client Quit). 18:07:29 -!- jix has joined. 18:07:53 (The generic attack against group dlog has runtime proportional to sum of square roots of prime factors of group order). 18:10:15 -!- rodgort has joined. 18:24:10 -!- rodgort has quit (Client Quit). 18:26:54 -!- rodgort has joined. 18:27:17 oklofog: Difficulty of group discrete logarithm varies from very easy to ~sqrt(|G|) work (which becomes too hard if |G| >~ 2^160...). <-- too hard on current hardware or too hard in some other sense? 18:28:50 (say, theoretical limit of some sort) 18:31:46 Too hard on current hardware. 18:34:18 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 18:34:20 right 18:40:24 Ilari, can you panellise it in any way? 18:55:48 It probably can be paralelized. But 2^80 work is still too huge for today's hardware... Its equivalent to cracking DES with brute force tens of millions of times... 18:55:59 85b343a3fc8c5007bda2bb490f640f45649595bcc1d76ecce8486d5c267a8b43332f066d2b31252f7688df4fb599d01f54c6105afa90ade6feba6f1f7887f9e7 18:56:02 er 18:56:04 wrong window 18:57:22 And already there's move towards elliptic groups of size ~2^224 (~2^112 work) or ~2^256 (~2^128 work). 18:58:21 128 hex characters -> 512 bits.... Some SHA-512 hash? 18:59:20 -!- jix has joined. 19:00:34 Ilari, correct 19:00:48 for en_windows_7_professional_x64_dvd_X15-65805.iso 19:00:58 (from MSDNAA) 19:05:22 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:05:36 Heh... Some SHA-3 candidates have 1024-bit outputs with enough pipe width for it. 19:06:13 eh? 19:06:54 The standard output sizes are 224, 256, 384 and 512, but some have more output sizes than those. 19:07:37 -!- augur has quit ("Leaving..."). 19:08:35 Ilari, oh? 19:08:35 hm 19:08:39 Ilari, 224 is a bit strange 19:08:45 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 19:09:22 * Rugxulo is at McDonalds 19:09:30 Rugxulo, public wlan? 19:09:35 Eating FAIL? :-> 19:09:36 yup 19:09:41 Ilari, yeah 19:09:52 AnMaster: There's SHA-224... 19:10:00 Ilari, yes a bit strange width 19:11:36 Don't know how it got to SHA-2. At least SHA-3 requirements have it because SHA-2 has 224-bit mode. 19:11:43 hah 19:11:53 lovely lovely backward compat 19:12:41 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 19:14:00 Some SHA-3 candidates even have variable output sizes (but if it allows to go very high, at some point the hash invariably breaks). 19:14:53 * Rugxulo never heard of SHA-3, only that SHA-1 is deprecated and SHA-2 was recommanded ... or so he thought 19:15:42 The SHA-3 is selected by competition (like AES was). There's currently 14 candidates for it. 19:16:43 I know CRC32 is lame, but isn't there some new cpu that supports it (but different poly)? 19:16:48 Breaks as in: Take E.g. Skein with 1024 bit pipe and 2048 bit output. One can do 2st preimage against that in ~2^1024 time just by brute force... 19:18:30 * Rugxulo bets the IBM Roadrunner could brute force most stuff ... 19:18:52 How many PFLOPS it has? 19:19:07 I dunno, lemme check Wikipedia ... 19:19:30 1.0 19:19:37 oops 19:19:45 designed for peak 1.7 19:19:58 reached 1.026 on may 25, 2008 19:20:12 Nov. 2008: 1.456 19:20:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibm_roadrunner 19:21:03 memory: 103.6 TiB 19:21:14 cost: $125 mil (US) 19:21:34 Say 2PFLOPS. Thats 2^51 FLOPS. In year, 2^76 FLOP. 19:22:01 Still, those computers are probably optimized for floating point and not as great in integer math. 19:22:19 standard Opterons and Cells (bunch of 'em) 19:23:40 12,960 IBM PowerXCell 8i CPUs 19:23:46 6,480 AMD Opteron dual-cores 19:23:47 Even that couldn't bruteforce 80-bit symmetric encryption... 19:24:27 PowerXCell 8i's are improved version of Cell (don't suck in Double-precision floating point). 19:24:57 * Rugxulo heard the Cell is a pain to program for 19:25:16 plus the new cheaper PS3s don't even let you use Linux no more :-P 19:25:40 * Rugxulo shakes fist even though doesn't care 19:25:48 Yeah, the SPUs are bizarre compared to ordinary processors. 19:26:00 Plus they only have 256KiB directly accessable memory. 19:26:10 Some SHA-3 candidates even have variable output sizes (but if it allows to go very high, at some point the hash invariably breaks). <-- why does it break? 19:27:07 AnMaster: Exceed pipe size and it starts to lose information. E.g. Skein-1024-2048 only has ~2^1024 possible outputs. 19:27:39 Ilari, so it gets worse after that? 19:27:50 or just no better than below that limit 19:28:04 err 19:28:04 above 19:28:37 No better going above the limit. Also, some constructions start breaking already before the full pipe size is reached. 19:28:59 Ilari, what is the pipe here? 19:29:08 I don't know a lot about these sort of things 19:29:10 Internal state carried between "blocks". 19:29:28 aha 19:30:09 Term "Wide pipe" refers to pipe being wider than output (usually in wide pipe design, pipe is twice the output size). 19:32:56 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 19:33:03 Ilari, what is the pipe width of SHA-2? 19:33:04 All practical hashes have constant state size (usually state includes buffer for current block, byte/bit counter and chaining value "pipe"). 19:33:23 256 for 224/256-bit output, 512 for 384/512-bit output. 19:33:37 plus the new cheaper PS3s don't even let you use Linux no more :-P <-- why? 19:33:37 SHA-1 has 160 bit output and pipe. 19:34:23 AnMaster, I think 'cause they claim it's not worth the effort to upgrade the firmware (or some lame reason) 19:34:30 Ilari, why 384... 19:34:46 SHA-3 competion 1st round candidates included Edon-R (broken). Holy shit it was fast... 19:34:53 some speculate they just didn't like losing money (as they do in all PS3 sales) for clusters, instead preferring only gamers (who buy games, where they make back the money) 19:35:16 AnMaster: 384 is average of 256 and 512 (maybe)? 19:35:36 SHA-3 competion 1st round candidates included Edon-R (broken). Holy shit it was fast... <-- huh? 19:35:48 CRC32 and Adler32 are really fast, no? but yeah I know they aren't very secure (if at all) 19:35:52 what was fast? 19:36:02 Edon-R? 19:37:03 Yeah, something like 3 cycles per byte... 19:37:55 don't some VIA chips have a SHA(-1?) instruction? 19:39:26 One of the hashes in competition has reported speed of ~3.6 clocks/byte (512-bit, 64-bit host). 19:43:35 -!- Asztal^_^ has changed nick to Asztal. 19:43:39 x86-64 or other? 19:43:58 X64 (Core 2 duo). 19:44:42 cool 19:48:22 When it comes to encryption algorithms, ridiculous key sizes are good sign of snake oil algorithms... 19:48:55 *a good sign 19:50:19 1024 bit already starts to be ridiculous for symmetric algorithm. Anything more thant that falls into completely ridiculous category... 19:52:00 and 103 TiB of RAM isn't ridiculous? ;-) 19:53:59 I have 103TiB of RAM in my toaster. 19:54:56 Of course, my toaster scans the bread into its memory banks, then produces computationally and generates it from its bank of raw organic matter. 19:55:11 *produces toast computationally 19:55:27 ah its a replicator 19:55:29 Because what is currently known about physics says that bruteforcing 256-bit keys is impossible. 19:55:33 ... for toast 19:55:58 deschutron: I plan to generalize it though. 19:56:10 I'd like for it to pickle things, too. 19:56:30 Does it use a brute force algorithm to calculate the best toast? 19:58:01 deschutron: oh, I saw your quasi-Feather thing, it's rather unlike Feather, but ofc that doesn't mean it's a bad lang 19:58:12 I think pretty much every entity in existence is rather unlike Feather 19:58:34 Thanks 19:58:51 I had a feeling it was unlike feather but still good 20:00:01 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 20:00:23 Good luck in your quest to define Feather 20:01:19 Just calculating all the possible keys would require ~5*10^54 J of energy (that's approximately the mass energy in 25 million solar masses). 20:11:56 1024 bit already starts to be ridiculous for symmetric algorithm. Anything more thant that falls into completely ridiculous category... <-- what about asymmetric ones? 20:12:48 hi ais523 20:13:03 hi 20:13:12 deschutron, what was your quasi-feather thing? 20:13:58 one good thing with dual core is that when something is hogging one CPU you can still easily kill it 20:13:58 its a language I thought of after talking to ais523 about feather 20:14:08 What, more feather thingies? 20:14:10 killall firefox did the trick 20:14:11 * FireFly reads 20:14:18 deschutron, link? 20:14:33 it's a prototyped language where you set the initial state of variables rather than their current states 20:14:40 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Deschutron#Deschutroid_Quasifeather 20:16:11 Depends on base problem. 1024-bit EC key is about 2^512 effort to crack (generic classic attacks can't touch it). 1024-bit discrete is ~2^80 effort (already starting to become too short). 20:18:24 Ilari, what about RSA? 20:18:36 AnMaster: RSA falls into "discrete" class. 20:18:41 ah 20:18:46 Ilari, DH/DSS? 20:18:56 I think that is what GPG uses 20:19:04 DH/DSS is discrete ECDH/ECDSS is EC 20:19:20 EC meaning? 20:19:25 Elliptic Curve 20:20:43 GPG can also use DSA2, which defines 2048 (112 bit equivalent) and 3072 (128 bit equivalent) bit keylengths. 20:21:58 DSA2 differs from standard DSA only in that it uses longer keys and SHA-2 hash functions. 20:24:48 deschutron, wow that lang looks great 20:25:03 thanks 20:25:11 what do you like about it? 20:25:14 It confuses me 20:25:22 :D 20:25:23 deschutron, everything but the java-like syntax 20:25:26 haha 20:25:43 Also, it had a typo in one of the examples, the method finalize/finalized was called the wrong thing somewhere 20:26:18 1. Variables may be partially defined. 2. You must define a variable with assignment operators, like in a normal imperative p programming language. 20:26:20 typo there 20:26:23 "p programming" 20:27:33 deschutron, I like the partial variables 20:27:43 however I wonder if this may not make it very very hard to execute 20:28:16 "Because of this bahviour, and the general treatment of contradictions, I suspect D.Quasifeather is a declarative programming language. " 20:28:18 hm 20:28:24 "D.Quasifeather"? 20:28:44 Deschutron Quasifeather 20:28:47 short for Deschutroid Quasifeather 20:28:51 Uh 20:29:04 Bleh, just autocompleted and supposed it'd be correct :P 20:29:12 ah 20:29:19 Didn't notice the language prefix and nick were different 20:30:06 The interpreter (or compiled program) has to store constraints for partially defined variables. 20:30:16 Then it can use a function to check assignments against its stored constraints. 20:30:23 deschutron, anyway... I suspect you could use partial variable stuff to crack asymetric ciphers 20:30:25 at least some 20:30:35 haha 20:30:37 oklofog: Number theory - Basics of Diffie-Hellman: Known parameters: g and p. Alice generates 0 < a < p, computes A = (g^a) mod p and sends A. Bob generates 0 < b < p, computes B = (g^b) mod p and sends B. Now Alice can compute S1 = (B^a) mod p and Bob can compute S2 = (A^b) mod p. Now, S1 = S2 if all goes properly. 20:30:39 how so? 20:30:42 think that example 20:31:04 so make a and b partial variables 20:31:35 deschutron, see what I mean? 20:31:42 i think so 20:31:45 it might help 20:32:03 deschutron, it might thus be rather hard to make an implementation of your language 20:32:08 but it I don't think it can do anything existing constraint programming languages can't do 20:32:21 deschutron, well indeed 20:32:28 I guess 20:32:59 deschutron, can you branch based on partial variable? 20:33:03 sure, no if 20:33:10 but you claim it to be TC so... 20:33:27 [spawned Bob; Bob.foo(); (the rest of the loop's code occurs inside the foo() method) 20:33:31 that doesn't work I think 20:33:37 what if the current cell is 0 20:33:46 thus the loop is never entered 20:34:05 deschutron, well? :P 20:34:44 Ilari: why do you know so much? 20:34:52 when is the loop never entered? 20:35:03 deschutron, in bf? when the current cell is 0 20:35:21 *** looks up brainfuck 20:36:08 oh I forgot [ jumps to the end of the loop if the cell is zero 20:36:15 deschutron, yep 20:36:19 thanks 20:43:47 i think I've found the solution to that problem 20:47:00 i hate being a finn, all the other finns are too smart. 20:47:02 if Bob.foo() is a recursive method, and it checks the value at the start of the method 20:47:55 then it can exit the loop from its beginning in the same way as a Brainfuck loop 20:48:33 someone link entfedern for the lazy? :| 20:48:58 by which i mean deschutron's feather 20:49:39 well not so much lazy as internet slowly working having. 20:50:00 http://esolangs.org/wiki/User_talk:Deschutron#Deschutroid_Quasifeather 20:50:05 actually more like internet being broken just noticing 20:50:11 i hate being a finn, all the other finns are too smart. <-- are they? 20:50:33 someone link entfedern for the lazy? :| <-- "entfedern"? 20:51:49 AnMaster: i consider Ilari, Deewiant and fizzie` smarter than me, dunno about keymaker, irl people are stupid; i consider many others here less smart than me, but not saying finns actually have the lead. 20:52:25 also it's a vector quantity, most aren't comparable 20:52:39 Partial variables can be branched on. e.g. "b = sign(a); b = 1; a = 0;" causes time-sealing. 20:52:56 damn internet 20:52:59 how many Finns are there here? 20:53:30 deschutron: those, at least 20:53:39 i don't recall others 20:53:59 -!- jix has joined. 20:54:03 oklofog, don't you prefer non-classical music? 20:54:10 rock or something 20:54:45 AnMaster: mostly i like songs without singing; metal, classic, all sorts of noise, some jazz... 20:55:40 oklofog, that is your problem 20:55:49 oklofog, you never heard that Mozart makes you smart? ;P 20:55:53 german entfedern, afaik, means "to rip off feathers", loosely translated 20:56:20 i'm sure you all got the joke 20:56:22 oklofog, the act of ripping feathers off something? 20:56:34 AnMaster: but i like mozard 20:56:43 *mozart 20:56:44 haha 20:57:06 oklofog, oh? I thought you didn't like that sort of classical music? 20:57:06 i might call the language that 20:57:23 deschutron: you should check it means that first :P 20:58:06 iirc "ent" is a prefix for something like "away", "federn" being "to feather" 20:58:29 AnMaster: mozart has instrumentals 20:59:14 * AnMaster notes his old Soundblaster Live! 5.1 PCI card is able to put out *noticeable* more bass than either the on-board VIA sound chipset in the same computer or the on-board Intel chipset in the laptop 20:59:25 also he has human sung stuff that is pretty complex, almost instrumental 20:59:36 using same mixer settings (as far as they are found) and same high quality headphones 21:00:06 * pikhq notes that the SB Live! was a good card. 21:00:12 high quality == studio quality here 21:00:22 "AnMaster: oklofog, the act of ripping feathers off something?" <<< it was in verb form, "to do that" 21:00:26 Beyerdynamics DT150 21:00:38 oklofog, ah ok 21:01:14 -!- oerjan has joined. 21:01:22 pikhq, yes it is. 21:01:24 not was 21:01:26 luckily 21:01:32 but PCI is a bit hard to find nowdays 21:01:40 so will be an issue for my next computer 21:01:52 plus SB Live! has hardware mixer and hardware midi 21:02:29 just tried to look it up, i found entfernen "to remove, strip off" and feder "feather", but no "entfedern" 21:02:37 Getting high power on low frequencies is quite difficult. 21:03:05 My SB Live! finally gave up the smoke earlier this year. 21:03:19 deschutron, don't know German, but in Swedish (same language group) you can basically freely create new words by concatenation of the right things. 21:03:57 there is basically no upper length limit apart from how long your breath lasts. Theoretically. No one would do that due to it being unreasonable 21:04:18 Getting high power on low frequencies is quite difficult. <-- hm :/ 21:04:26 pikhq, ouch :( 21:05:05 pikhq, that seriously sucks a lot 21:05:19 deschutron: it's possible you wouldn't find it in a webdict, my friend's dictionary contains, for some reason, tons of these really weird hunting terms 21:05:40 entfedern sounds like it might be one of those 21:06:19 Since DC coupling to output is not possible (signaficant DC components fry amplifiers) and AC coupling is inheritly bandpass. 21:06:34 Ilari, then how do you do it? 21:06:35 pikhq: i decide to interpret that as you giving up smoking, because you smoking is such a weird thought 21:07:05 Just use large enough decoupling capacitors to push the lower freq limit down. 21:07:26 Or build higher-powered amplifier. 21:07:30 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 21:07:34 Ilari, how comes you know this sort of stuff 21:07:46 Ilari, plus I have the volume rather low to not damage my hearing 21:07:50 yeah Ilari, how do you know so much 21:07:55 :D 21:07:58 I just want accurate representation of the sound at that volume 21:08:09 *why 21:08:16 that's good enough for me 21:08:24 deschutron, what is? 21:08:26 One friend told that faulty sound card fried his external amplifier with overly large DC component. 21:08:43 the explanation around entfedern 21:08:55 Ilari, I wouldn't want my headphones to fry when I'm using them 21:09:36 If they are passive, any reasonable DC component probably won't fry them. But active headphones are different matter. 21:09:57 Ilari, how do I tell the difference? 21:10:26 look for batteries? 21:10:57 i just understood how my language might crack the Diffie-Hellman point raised earlier 21:11:05 http://www.beyerdynamic.de/en/broadcast-studio-video-production/products/headphonesheadsets/headphones.html?tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1[showUid][showUID]=41&tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1[showUid][backPID]=93&cHash=0fd1ee1ab1 21:11:14 I guess implementations of my language should just accept that there's some things they can't calculate, even if they do have all the information 21:11:17 oklofog, in headphones? never seen that 21:11:49 deschutron: there's nothing wrong with being able to write a program to crack DH. you can do that in any lang 21:12:28 AnMaster: I have wireless headphones. These do have batteries. Still wired headphones with batteries are probably rare. 21:12:35 Ilari, yeah 21:12:36 oklofog: ... 21:12:44 these definitely doesn't have headphones 21:12:45 err 21:12:45 AnMaster: i don't know the definition of "active", i just know our bass player has an "active bass", and it has batteries. 21:12:47 batteries 21:12:58 oklofog: "gave up the smoke" means that the magic smoke came loose from the bord. ;) 21:13:24 pikhq, every time I thought that happened it was the damn complex alsa mixer settings that were off 21:13:33 pikhq, since you had such a card you know what I mean 21:13:54 like recently when it turned out mute was on for the right channel 21:14:06 pikhq: My SB Live! (correct use of the interjection?) 21:14:27 oklofog, the product is called "Soundblaster Live!" 21:14:30 with that "!" 21:14:33 so yeah kind of 21:14:53 it is rather irritating when a product name contains a "! 21:14:54 maybe, maybe sometimes my jokes are so complicated they aren't even funny. 21:14:54 " 21:15:30 AnMaster: and yeah, i know that 21:15:32 like 3dNow! 21:15:33 oklofog: you're right. however i don't want it to do it unexpectedly because the programmer made a certain set of assignments 21:16:06 deschutron, why not 21:16:06 well, i don't know it, i deduced it. 21:17:09 well actually, i'm not sure i don't want it to 21:18:03 also the interjection joke was a continuation of the earlier one, i clearly parsed it as some sort of "OMG", to have understood the giving up the smoke as pikhq quitting smoking, not sure that was obvious 21:18:26 at least AnMaster didn't get it, so explaining is justified 21:19:30 deschutron: stuff can hang unexpectedly in any language, if you don't know what you're doing 21:21:15 AnMaster: I always pronounce those "!"s 21:21:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postalveolar_click 21:21:27 of course the more high level and declarative, the more this will depend on the implementation 21:22:40 yes, unexpectedly hanging on the programmer isn't a problem now as I see it. this case at least would not happen too often 21:23:27 you would probably have to implement diffie hellman, and the ask out of curiosity what the other party's private key is 21:24:19 deschutron, please upload a recording where you pronounce "Soundblaster Live! 5.1" 21:24:19 there is the problem that the language assumes that if there is enough information to calculate something, then it has access to the answer 21:24:20 :D 21:26:15 deschutron: that's just the constraint programming version of for i in xrange(big number): ... 21:26:17 to satisfy that assumption, the language might have to be able to use all sorts of algorithms for unusual situations 21:26:49 you *should* be able to ask stuff that takes too long to calculat. 21:26:50 *e 21:27:10 well if it only takes too long, it shouldn't be a problem 21:27:31 i only care now about how long i takes to implement the language 21:28:43 you can just start a brute force thread for every query, write special algos for some cases 21:29:00 * ais523 proves Norfuck Turing-incomplete 21:29:02 i mean in theory 21:29:09 what's norfuck? 21:29:14 being able to simulate finite subsets of rule 110 does not make a program TC... 21:29:16 don't link, internet don't flow. 21:29:17 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Norfuck 21:29:23 oh, it basically has 3 commands 21:29:28 >: move pointer to the right 21:29:59 <: if current cell is 1, set internal state to true (otherwise leave it the same), move pointer to first cell 21:30:11 !: set current cell to inverse of internal state, set internal state to false, move pointer to first cell 21:30:23 and it has a tape of booleans 21:30:28 and 1 bit of internal state 21:30:32 deschutron: that's just the constraint programming version of for i in xrange(big number): ... 21:30:36 xrange? 21:30:39 you mean range 21:30:44 well, no 21:30:47 after all that is same as the legacy xrange 21:30:54 python 3 dropped xrange 21:31:02 and range is same as the old xrange 21:31:04 and i'm not using python 3 because it's stupid 21:31:20 clearly Turing-incomplete due to finite accessible memory 21:31:21 oklofog, why is it stupid? 21:31:25 although I think it's a universal FSM 21:31:36 AnMaster: i don't remember. 21:31:39 i tried to make a truly minimal variant of brainfuck the other day. strangely, i had to choose between being a minimal simulation of all brainfuck implementations or being turing complete 21:31:48 some detail that made me debug a program for ages 21:31:48 right 21:31:52 division 21:32:02 integer division got its own operator 21:32:04 oklofog, you mean / vs. // 21:32:08 pretty sensible, really 21:32:10 well that isn't stupid IMO 21:32:16 well it isn't stupid 21:32:24 it's just... i hate it 21:32:25 you see? 21:32:29 ah 21:32:33 :P 21:32:47 i tried it once, and got pissed, it's probably better in every way. 21:32:55 oklofog, I like the python 2.5-and-later syntax for ?: foo if condition else bar 21:33:35 i tried to make a truly minimal variant of brainfuck the other day. strangely, i had to choose between being a minimal simulation of all brainfuck implementations or being turing complete <-- eh? 21:33:57 well i don't really like python anymore... or any language except a few nonexistant ones of my own, but umm isn't that from perl 21:34:15 oklofog, maybe. I don't know perl 21:34:18 the ifelse thinger 21:34:28 me neither 21:34:52 ais523: does it have loops 21:35:00 oklofog: program repeats when it ends 21:35:03 so it has just the one loop 21:35:35 someone should really define turing completeness 21:35:40 although I think it's a universal FSM <- how do you prove it? 21:35:49 oklofog, being able to do everything an UTM can 21:35:50 there 21:35:51 I did it 21:35:53 AnMaster: compile some other FSM to it 21:36:00 what's a universal fsm? 21:36:01 ais523, such as? 21:36:14 oklofog: an FSM that any other FSM can be compiled to 21:36:15 oklofog, I was hoping to ask that indirectly 21:36:24 well, and FSM description language that any FSM can be described in 21:36:28 I was being sloppy with language 21:36:42 s/and/an/ 21:36:42 AnMaster: doesn't really help with the finite/infinite issue 21:36:52 oklofog, eh? 21:37:13 AnMaster: suppose you have a language in which you can reasonably write an infinitely long program 21:37:19 say, cat 21:37:22 AnMaster: proofs of 110 and ais523's tm require infinite starting conditions 21:37:23 well ok 21:37:24 even cat is TC by your definition 21:37:37 the issue is, /which/ infinite starting conditions do you need? 21:37:38 the tm requires a rather complex starting pattern 21:37:47 ais523, no? 21:37:47 it isn't able to do everything that a UTM can 21:37:52 AnMaster: yes it is 21:37:52 there is no definition for whether that's allowed 21:37:56 well I was sloppy with langauge 21:37:59 being equivilent to 21:38:00 is better 21:38:05 what you do is, you run all possible programs in parallel 21:38:08 equivalent* 21:38:13 whenever any produces output, you write the program and its output to a file 21:38:16 then, you feed that file to cat 21:38:21 see, cat can do anything a UTM can 21:38:38 the issue is, that input is far too complex to demonstrate TCness with; the TCness is in the input, not the lang itself 21:38:53 ais523, right. Lets say then "Being equivalent to an UTM" 21:39:11 I had a big row with Professor Pratt about whether it's possible to get TC behaviour from a sub-TC-generable input fed into a sub-TC language 21:39:12 that really isn't a definition. 21:39:13 I think it isn't 21:39:28 oklofog, well ok 21:39:32 he isn't sure on the issue, and thinks it isn't obvious either way 21:39:40 so define it yourself them 21:39:44 then* 21:39:55 the profs here that prove undecidability for a living, at least, say there's no actual definition 21:40:04 oklofog: so do I 21:40:12 * oerjan notes ais523 ninjaed him on Norfuck but posts his comment anyhow 21:40:14 oh? 21:40:18 at least, you can give necessary and sufficient definitions 21:40:19 PCI hard? Not at all 21:40:20 how can there be no definition? 21:40:22 but unfortunately they aren't the same 21:40:28 in-between, mathematicians disagree 21:40:28 Hmm, I was scrolled up 21:40:37 Deewiant, PCI hard? :D 21:40:46 is that more than NP Hard? 21:40:48 2009-10-03 23:01:32 ( AnMaster) but PCI is a bit hard to find nowdays 21:40:48 or less 21:41:02 Deewiant, ok then... ISA is 21:41:03 That was what I was trying to respond to 21:41:23 -!- ehird has joined. 21:41:39 hi ehird 21:41:41 What do you need ISA for? 21:41:42 no 95 any more? 21:41:43 SeaMonkey on 95 crashes a lot, so I'm back using my host OS. 21:41:54 why not just use Opera/ 21:41:57 Deewiant, nothing 21:42:18 ais523: Opera crashes less, admittedly, but it's slower and also freezes the computer more. 21:42:26 (Opera 9; Opera 10 also uses all my system resources.) 21:42:40 ehird, freezing computer counts as crashing doesn't it? 21:42:48 Not if it unfreezes. 21:43:10 ah ok 21:43:11 true 21:43:22 Slower than what? 21:43:25 Ah, SeaMonkey 21:43:33 Yeah; hard to believe, eh? 21:43:37 AnMaster: it's kinda hard to find a definition without deciding on a formalism. 21:43:48 Well, I'm used to Opera being pretty fast 21:43:50 :P 21:43:58 The full bloated Mozilla Suite and Gecko vs a light-weight, snappy browser that has a reputation of working on older hardware. 21:44:02 Of course the first is faster! 21:44:17 I guess Windows 95 isn't much of a target platform, though. 21:44:26 it is sad that microsoft didn't stick to 9x design 21:44:36 GUI-wise, yes. Kernel-wise, fuck no 21:44:40 9x is unstable as shit 21:44:45 ehird, that was my point! 21:44:52 why? Because then Linux and OS X would have ruled the world by now 21:44:53 how do you upload a file? 21:45:07 deschutron: text or other? 21:45:09 if other filebin.ca 21:45:10 the original "definition" was you have a finite pattern plus padding, which isn't really a formal definition without a definition of what is considered padding; and also that definition disallows the kinds of proofs used for 110 and aismachine 21:45:13 if text pastebin.ca 21:45:19 AnMaster: Nobody much switched to Linux because of 9x. 21:45:21 other 21:45:26 ehird, hm ok 21:45:29 deschutron: if image imgur.com 21:45:39 AnMaster: Probably because 9x booted really quickly and Linux didn't catch up until this decade. 21:45:42 deschutron, to the wiki? 21:45:43 sound file? 21:45:49 deschutron: filebin.ac 21:45:51 *ca 21:45:55 yeah filebin.ca 21:45:57 AnMaster: So 9x crashing is less important :-P 21:46:30 ehird, if MS had stuck to 9x still at this time though 21:46:59 ehird, I want to see you run windows ME for a bit :P 21:46:59 Games, inertia etc. MS would have been here to stay unless they made something totally unusable, which they've never done. 21:47:05 AnMaster: I did for years. 21:47:15 Yes, it crashes a lot with most hardware, but it's tolerable to a point. 21:47:18 ehird, that explains a LOT. 21:47:37 A totally unusable OS would never get past MS' gates (har har) purely because, well, they *do* test these things. 21:47:41 ;P 21:47:47 http://filebin.ca/jxpepe/soundblasterlive!.mp3 21:47:50 AnMaster: It sort of scarred me. 21:48:04 deschutron: Soundblaster?? Is this whole channel casting a retro-fad spell? 21:48:48 channel casting? 21:48:52 deschutron, heh 21:48:59 Yes. 21:49:06 deschutron, why do you pronounce it like that 21:49:08 Channels be spiritual entities. 21:49:27 because then the exclamation mark has a point. 21:49:36 deschutron, heh 21:49:48 deschutron, why the american sound 21:49:53 it has become a letter and not a punctuation mark, and is therefore completely out of place 21:49:53 try some UK English 21:49:58 a lot less draaawling 21:50:14 (I think that is the word) 21:50:31 if it comes up again, i will use received pronunciation then 21:50:38 deschutron, heh 21:50:52 deschutron, I was just making fun of US English. No offence meant . 21:50:58 s/ ././ 21:51:01 err wait 21:51:02 no 21:51:04 s/ \././ 21:51:09 the funny thing is i'm australian 21:51:17 deschutron, oh? Sounds like US English 21:51:29 deschutron, maybe the lack of "gday mate" mislead me 21:51:38 21:59:30 I assumed 100mbit from the start. 21:51:38 21:59:44 But then, I challenge you to find a 10mbit ethernet card nowadays :P 21:51:40 any old computer 21:51:43 like older than 2000 21:51:44 ehird: I really do wish Microsoft stuck with a 95-esque interface. That was a very usable UI. Not the nicest-looking thing ever, but Microsoft's track record with aesthetics is such that I prefer utilitarian over their idea of "beauty". ;) 21:52:19 americans would say blaster differently, right? like a long form of the 'a' in cat 21:52:25 the widgets were usable enough. I'm not going to glorify it, though; 95's design ran into a wall, both GUI-wise and kernel-wise. 21:52:36 Microsoft's been just running around aimlessly since. 21:52:40 * pikhq nods 21:52:45 Now to find out what the context of this conversation is. 21:52:57 A few lines up about 10 minutes ago. 21:53:05 microsoft's been investing a bit into touch screen devices, apparently 21:53:10 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.10.03 ;; that first oklopol monologue is art 21:53:18 I did some stack munging. w00ts. 21:53:43 "i don't believe in hardware" 21:53:47 that's a great quote 21:54:00 o 21:54:11 ... Array indexing? 21:54:15 04:29:29 I assumed 100mbit from the start. 21:54:16 04:29:45 what the heck 21:54:16 ethernet 21:54:36 You mean there's something other than <$>? 21:54:42 oerjan was what-the-hecking at 100millibit :P 21:54:47 (/fmap/map/liftM2...) 21:55:21 Gregor: oh :D 21:55:23 deschutron, tell me... do you understand: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/IrregularPodcast007.mp3 21:56:11 i can hear a few words, but i can't make out words in singing usually. sounds perfectly comprehensible to me, though. 21:56:27 ehird, no after the singing 21:56:28 ... 21:56:31 oh. 21:56:34 well you didn't specify. 21:56:36 did you 21:56:39 sorry indeed 21:56:47 *listens* 21:56:56 first it is easy to understand 21:57:00 but then it gets worse and worse 21:57:08 _actually_, the what the heck was about my double pasting, my old senile three year old computer does weird freeze ups close to startup 21:57:38 so it didn't register the first paste, and i thought i'd forgotten to press ^C 21:57:44 well okay this is pretty meaningless. 21:58:30 10:55:59 85b343a3fc8c5007bda2bb490f640f45649595bcc1d76ecce8486d5c267a8b43332f066d2b31252f7688df4fb599d01f54c6105afa90ade6feba6f1f7887f9e7 21:58:34 YOUR NEW PGP KEY EH 21:59:12 11:08:45 --- join: Rugxulo (n=user@nmd.mcd01412.hou.wayport.net) joined #esoteric 21:59:12 11:09:22 * Rugxulo is at McDonalds 21:59:21 most embarrassing hostname ever? 21:59:32 what's wrong with that hostname? 21:59:43 it identifies you as being at mcdonalds 22:00:32 so anyway, I wonder what fun OS I should try now 22:00:38 hmm... maybe the last BeOS 22:00:43 see what all the fuss is about 22:01:47 ehird, so hard is it to understand that podcast? 22:02:06 Well, obviously. I doubt it'd be easy for an Australian, either. 22:02:16 ehird, same 22:02:34 which is why I asked deschutron 22:08:09 -!- Azstal has joined. 22:08:44 so you see the in the history of the Australian dialect, apparently, there was a guy who went around causing all kinds of trouble. and then the presenter driving through the country at some point, and he found a mechanic, who was completely drunk, and had dinner with him. 22:08:55 deschutron: ... 22:08:58 you must be making this up X_X 22:09:04 ^ s/presenter driving/presenter was driving/ 22:09:20 I couldn't even understand regular english talked that quickly 22:09:31 this is an important story in our dialectic history 22:09:44 deschutron, you mean you understand it? 22:10:00 -!- frater_aleph has joined. 22:10:01 about 70% 22:10:03 there is a transcript at http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/podcasts/podcast007.html 22:10:04 btw 22:10:08 with annotations 22:10:12 -!- frater_aleph has quit (Client Quit). 22:10:21 -!- frater_aleph has joined. 22:10:26 hi frater_aleph 22:10:28 who're you 22:10:29 ah, a cardinal 22:10:38 hi :) 22:10:39 >_< 22:10:45 any R+C here? 22:10:48 R+C? 22:12:06 we take that as a no 22:12:15 wut 22:12:19 yeah :) 22:12:30 what're you talking about :| 22:12:51 frater_aleph, this is about esoteric programming languages not esoterica. Just want to make that clear early on 22:13:06 -!- frater_aleph has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 22:13:07 and I have no clue what "R+C" is either 22:13:09 we should move to #esoterica and have lots more fun with people mistaking it 22:13:12 heh 22:13:15 well that got rid of him 22:13:24 ehird, or just connection issues 22:13:29 -!- frater_aleph has joined. 22:13:35 Or that. 22:13:36 as shown 22:13:38 Hi frater_aleph, what is R+C. 22:13:46 not sure if you saw this: 22:13:48 frater_aleph, this is about esoteric programming languages not esoterica. Just want to make that clear early on 22:14:40 RAAAAAAAAAAAR DINOSAURS 22:14:47 Dinosaurs with inquiring minds want to know what R+C is. 22:14:59 raptors + ? 22:15:00 You wouldn't ignore a dinosaur would you? Because that would be fatal. 22:15:04 ah ok hahahahaha 22:15:07 sorry anmaster 22:15:07 oerjan: The ? is the ELEMENT OF SUSPENSE 22:15:12 frater_aleph: WHAT IS R+C 22:15:13 :P 22:15:15 We must know 22:15:17 frater_aleph, I have no clue what R+C is either 22:15:18 RosiCrucian 22:15:24 raptors + cardinals from the spanish inquisition 22:15:27 oh sounds like esoterica 22:15:28 hehehehe 22:15:31 indeed 22:15:32 ok ppl take care :) 22:15:32 shweet, a retarded secret society 22:15:34 sorry about that 22:15:40 -!- frater_aleph has quit (Client Quit). 22:15:41 ^bf ,[.,]!test 22:15:41 aha 22:15:43 we are used to people mistaking 22:15:48 the problem with name clashes is that the people we're mistaken for are all deluded idiots :( 22:16:00 or russian musicians/ 22:16:10 IS THERE A DIFFERENCE 22:16:12 or Remote Controlled 22:16:14 ais523: wait, what? 22:16:21 oerjan: lima! :-[ 22:16:26 oerjan: ask ehird for the story 22:16:32 or ask tunes.org, a day or two ago 22:16:35 :-P 22:16:35 * oerjan dares not 22:16:37 ehird, tell us the story 22:16:42 I'm still not sure whether it was a legitimate confused person, or a troll... 22:17:00 legit. 22:17:09 huh, how long ago was it?? 22:17:15 not on the 28th onwards 22:18:02 was it lima or lina 22:18:28 x_x 22:18:30 I can't find it 22:18:48 it happened in a parallel dimension 22:18:59 where esoteric means something completely different 22:19:03 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:19:17 ok, WTF? clog evidently didn't pick itu p 22:19:18 oerjan, yes about russian musicians I guess 22:19:18 *it up 22:19:23 It was while I was 95 22:19:24 ehird, tell us about it then 22:19:27 how long was I 95? 22:19:29 one or two days? 22:19:36 ehird, three or four? 22:19:47 ehird, tell me what to grep for 22:19:50 one, actually 22:19:50 and I can find it 22:19:53 I have complete logs 22:19:59 more or less 22:20:05 here we go 22:20:07 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.10.02 22:20:09 grep 'linf' 22:21:00 some speculate they just didn't like losing money (as they do in all PS3 sales) 22:21:05 nonsense, they surely make a profit 22:21:14 a high-end games console as a loss leader is ridiculous 22:21:53 11:52:00 and 103 TiB of RAM isn't ridiculous? ;-) 22:22:01 it's needed for the purpose of the RR 22:22:22 103 TiB of RAM is quite a lot... 22:22:36 It's in the IBM RoadRunner, which is more a supercomputer cluster (tens of thousands of CPUs in "blade nodes") 22:22:54 it's at about 1.5 petaflops atm 22:22:59 "In November 2008, it reached a top performance of 1.456 petaflops, retaining its top spot in the TOP500 list." 22:23:05 will be completed this year 22:23:08 I are having many english speakings thanking much 22:23:09 12,960 IBM PowerXCell 8i CPUs, 6,480 AMD Opteron dual-core processors, Infiniband, Linux 22:23:12 you don't say 22:23:13 IBM made it 22:23:23 it's owned by the US military 22:23:25 "The DOE plans to use the computer for simulating how nuclear materials age in order to predict whether the USA's aging arsenal of nuclear weapons are safe and reliable. Other uses for the Roadrunner include the sciences, financial, automotive and aerospace industries." 22:23:58 Considering how it's basically a bunch of servers wired together with a fast link, I'd call it more of a server farm 22:24:29 admittedly a lot of supercomputers are that today; still 22:25:49 supercomputers, the hive minds of computing 22:26:41 "This language is only Turing complete when it has errors." :D 22:27:25 it would be interesting if someone found an important research computation task that was completely non-parallelizable 22:28:04 all hardware development since 2000 (?) or so would be useless for it 22:28:13 like how important 22:28:21 also, if such a task exists, it's pretty hopeless 22:28:25 chips can only run so fast... 22:28:41 like, some new way of simulating quantum physics... 22:28:59 heck, modern workstations rival supercomputers in serial execution speed... 22:29:33 I'd imagine that could at least be treated as a dependency graph of some sort... 22:29:46 pikhq: thu "interesting if" 22:29:54 True. 22:29:56 *thus 22:30:02 also, quantum physics is possibly uncomputable 22:30:23 untractable 22:30:28 ? 22:30:41 is not the same, mathematically 22:31:38 well, could be. 22:31:52 what do you mean by untractable 22:31:54 if the theory is even weirder 22:32:04 untractable = superpolynomial 22:32:26 which is still weaker than uncomputable, but not in practice 22:32:30 ok, well superpolynomial doesn't seem so bad 22:32:43 I mean, we can solve small NP-complete problems on today's computers; admittedly it blows up really fast 22:32:58 but imagine a computer bigger than a million galaxies; I'm sure it could simulate a few atoms... 22:33:35 (and obviously even thinking about simulating it until we can build such computers is rather futile) 22:34:33 however there is a theory that simulating quantum systems with quantum computers would not be superpolynomial 22:34:52 what is fungot? 22:34:56 if the difficulty is purely in the quantum part 22:35:03 ^source 22:35:07 omg it's dead. 22:35:09 :(((( 22:35:10 fizzie 22:35:12 fizzie fizzie fizzie FIZZIE 22:35:16 fizzie` 22:35:22 fizzie` fizzie` fizzie` FIZZIE~ 22:35:25 fungot we hardly knew ye 22:35:34 gone, in fact 22:35:42 ? 22:35:44 deschutron: anyway, bot in befunge 22:35:50 it babbles 22:35:57 and squabbles 22:36:01 and slices and dices 22:36:06 zem.fi is down 22:36:14 as well as its gehennom.org alias 22:36:19 fizzie` is `-ified 22:36:26 WHAT IS HAPPENING 22:36:40 hmm well fizzie is from zem.fi atm 22:36:43 fizzie` that is 22:36:45 well, it became sentient recently 22:36:49 as far as we can tell 22:37:00 maybe it thought the conversation in here was too inane and left 22:37:02 clearly the finns have accidentally produced a black hole, and the country is gone 22:37:19 ais523: taking down zem.fi with it? :P 22:37:32 oh wait, right, singularity 22:37:33 "Bet you wish you'd made me Friendly. *zap*" 22:37:46 we're actually all executing a little fungot right now. 22:38:10 "that'll be funGOD to you, from now on!" 22:39:26 is this one of those "he still executes, in our hearts", things? 22:39:35 no 22:39:40 he's a superhuman AI 22:39:44 he hacked into all of our computers. 22:39:49 :D 22:39:57 yeah where is fungot 22:40:01 collectively we have rather more computing power than that squalid zem.fi place, but considerably more latency 22:40:18 and became the technological singularity, and conquered finland? 22:40:30 well, Ilari talked recently... 22:40:38 deschutron, yeah. And he was written in befuge 22:40:40 (maybe he's actually swedish) 22:40:41 funge* 22:40:45 AnMaster: has been said. 22:40:48 *so has been 22:40:48 ah 22:40:49 no that was just at first. then he transfered to biological power, so indeed he _does_ execute in our hearts now. as well as our brains, livers and spleens. 22:41:05 hmm is that really more efficient 22:41:07 oh just got an update 22:41:09 he's now pure energy 22:41:13 and living in our wires 22:41:22 he is computing... at the speed of light. 22:41:25 but not just one, no 22:41:34 he is parallelised across the whole globe 22:41:47 basically soon we'll be jetting off into space. 22:42:04 i think he just invented ftl communication 22:42:08 maybe Ilari spoke because he allowed Ilari to speak. Post singularity robots work in mysterious ways... 22:42:21 and slices and dices <-- but does it blend? 22:42:27 true, ilari had to give us that all-important information about cryptography 22:42:34 AnMaster: if you are not careful 22:42:39 oerjan: argh you just put that song in my head 22:42:43 (sorry for the bad joke) 22:42:49 what song 22:42:53 yeah what song 22:43:09 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc&fmt=18, skip to 32s for the bit now in my head 22:43:15 re: ftl travel 22:43:21 it was on reddit a while back 22:44:18 ehird, fmt 32 is better isn't it? 22:44:22 err 22:44:25 35 22:44:27 it doesn't have the hd option, I don't think. 22:44:31 not all videos do 22:44:33 most don't 22:44:42 ehird, youtube-dl downloads it just fine with fmt 35 22:44:45 but not 22 22:44:45 yes 22:44:49 you got the HQ version, presumably 22:44:57 HD* 22:44:59 well, there's a new HQ? 22:45:00 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc&fmt=35 then 22:45:03 I can't tell any difference 22:45:04 but non-18 is mono 22:45:10 so for a song, 18 helps... 22:45:15 ehird, is 35 mono?? 22:45:18 (well, non 18 as default) 22:45:19 (that is) 22:45:23 (not the higher qualities) 22:45:26 you know i had an idea that a post-singularity intelligence might employ people to read news articles and academic papers and summarise them for it, until it had finished learning the nuances of human communication 22:45:46 deschutron: it would be vital to build human communication into it as much as possible from the start 22:45:50 ehird, is 35 mono or not? 22:45:54 Hrm. 22:45:57 AnMaster: don't know, almost certainly not 22:45:57 -!- fizzie` has changed nick to fizzie. 22:50:41 deschutron: otherwise it can't really analyze humanity to find out what its wishes would be (if we were more intelligent and our opinions cohered more) 22:50:41 Maybe some freenode disconnectation thing. 22:50:41 Gnaa, the computer fungot runs on doesn't answer at all. 22:50:41 told you 22:50:41 singularity. 22:50:41 fizzie: it's totally frazzled, don't bother 22:50:41 it was the only way it could escape: down the ethernet port. 22:50:41 Singularity is the new ping timeout 22:50:41 that was, understandably, ...taxing for the components 22:50:41 Deewiant: is the new "peer did it" 22:50:41 it might be really intelligent, but not up to date on all of our culture, during its early days humans might be able to do some things faster than it 22:50:41 at the least, the humans doing work for it will free up some of its own cpu cycles 22:50:41 holy crap! Ubuntu knows how many emails are unread in gmail... though it gives the wrong count 22:50:41 oh 22:50:41 Evolution started up 22:50:41 now how do I kill it 22:50:41 ehird, that is a good song 22:50:42 it's catchy 22:50:50 will we humans ever get bored of autotune 22:50:51 Waah, my web server laptop has died. No signs of life whatsoever, not even the "AC adapter connected" indicator. 22:50:54 (the answer is no) 22:50:58 fizzie: I TOLD YOU 22:51:10 open it up and see the fried network controller 22:51:38 Well, it's either the laptop, or the AC adapter itself; but that's not so easy to troubleshoot without a replacement AC adapter. 22:51:45 will we humans ever get bored of autotune <-- ? 22:51:52 autotune? 22:52:01 AnMaster: autotune is the pitch-correcting software modern "singers" use, cough cough 22:52:12 (and some rappers use it with zero transition time giving a weird vocoder-style effect) 22:52:15 AnMaster: that song was made with it. 22:52:23 on top of carl sagan speaking 22:52:26 well, and stephen hawking 22:52:27 Well, it's either the laptop, or the AC adapter itself; but that's not so easy to troubleshoot without a replacement AC adapter. <--- multimeter 22:52:52 ehird, oh, hm 22:52:54 Right, I guess that should indicate at least something. 22:53:11 AnMaster: (I mean, he couldn't exactly make that song, being dead and all that.) 22:53:27 ehird, as far as I know it was recorded *before* he died 22:53:29 Kinda dampens your song-making ability. Well, unless you're tupac. 22:53:36 tupac? 22:53:50 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupac_Shakur, who has had like 174 albums released post-humerously. 22:53:56 (Oblig. "HE'S NOT DEAD") 22:54:24 Then again I guess he had no song-making ability to start with. 22:54:26 Ooh, ice burn. 22:55:01 Eyes burn. 22:55:20 i spurn 22:55:51 ehird, so how was that autotune used? On old recorded speech of Carl Sagan? 22:56:04 From the Cosmos TV series, circa 1980. 22:56:16 ah 22:56:24 Eyes cream, eyes burn, what can't eyes do? 22:56:57 ehird, you can take *speech* and turn into a *song*? 22:57:06 xD 22:57:12 AnMaster: Since, like, a decade, yes. 22:57:14 wow 22:57:27 AnMaster: Well, just the vocals. 22:57:29 Obviously. 22:57:47 I mean, it doesn't come up with a backing track and make edits for you. Yet. 22:57:51 well yes 22:58:06 The "official" purpose of Auto-Tune is to correct the pitch of, well, bad singers. But it sounds artificial. 22:58:06 Well, there are no volts coming out the AC adapter. 22:58:16 fizzie is blind to the truth of fungot. 22:58:21 YOU'RE IN DENIAL 22:58:39 wait, fizzie is physically in the same space as fungot? 22:58:48 i fear he is lost to us then 22:59:00 ehird, I mean yes I can see how you can adjust the *tune* in singing. But turning *speech* into *singing* is a bit harder... 22:59:09 fungot escaped through ethernet, or probably the AC adapter considering things 22:59:24 AnMaster: Well, same thing. Changing the timing is just stretching/shortening it, and then changing the pitch to be musical. 22:59:32 It's not like speaking has a pitch. 22:59:33 erm 22:59:36 It's not like speaking doesn't have a pitch. 22:59:47 true 23:00:21 fizzie, then it is a safe bet that is dead and the laptop isn't 23:00:26 Aw, no fungot here 23:00:28 Among the same line is the ever-present genre of "remix a bad TV advert"; e.g. one of the better examples, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRyj5cHIQA 23:00:31 I wanted to hear some truth 23:00:32 oh dear, escaping through the power lines? let's hope he doesn't reach a nuclear power station. i think i recall a film like that. 23:00:52 *Along the same line 23:04:08 SILENCE 23:04:29 There's more difference between singing and speaking than just twiddling the speech fundamental frequency to follow some musical melody. Though I'm sure you could do other tricks too and get something that approximates singing. 23:04:34 Among the same line is the ever-present genre of "remix a bad TV advert"; e.g. one of the better examples, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWRyj5cHIQA <-- that was extremely bad 23:04:49 AnMaster: It's amusing and kinda catchy, but admittedly without music musical merit. 23:04:55 a bit weird they could add the music-allness to it 23:04:58 fizzie: Well, autotuned speech doesn't really sound like singing. 23:04:58 The same tricks are needed to make Auto-Tune work. .. 23:05:03 ehird, yeah 23:05:05 "music-allness" xD 23:05:25 Auto-Tune sounds really, really painfully artificial because of that sort of thing. 23:05:29 ehird, yeah that failed 23:05:45 Music-allness: the philosophy for jamming Buddhists. 23:05:53 :D 23:05:56 Hmm, I want a lava lamp. 23:09:01 ehird, why? 23:09:05 -!- jix_ has joined. 23:09:11 AnMaster: They're pretty. 23:09:21 Well, I guess I just kind of... like the idea. 23:09:53 They should make a USB lava lamp. :P 23:09:55 ehird, I heard a lot of people think that they are.... naff 23:10:00 Eh, of course they do: http://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=usb+lava+lamp 23:10:18 ehird, yeah I saw one ages ago at thinkgeek 23:10:22 AnMaster: We had one in the old house; the blobs move around and littel else. 23:10:25 *little else 23:10:29 It's not super-exciting, no. 23:11:12 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:12:31 -!- deschutron has left (?). 23:14:17 So, it5878 23:14:19 erm 23:14:25 So, it's 1993-10-5878. 23:16:53 ehird: first, win95, now lava lamps? are you living history backwards? 23:17:04 :-D 23:17:06 soon, he shall be born 23:17:10 wait 23:17:13 whoa. 23:18:31 "In 2004, Phillip Quinn, a 24-year-old of Kent, Washington, was killed during an attempt to heat up a lava lamp on his kitchen stove while closely observing it from only a few feet away. The heat from the stove built up pressure in the lamp until it exploded, spraying shards of glass with enough force to pierce his chest, with one shard piercing his heart and causing fatal injuries." 23:18:59 so don't do that. 23:19:56 ehird, hm in the video there is a short display of Steven Hawkings interface 23:19:57 interesting 23:19:58 very 23:20:06 It's UNIX; he knows this. 23:20:27 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:20:44 ehird, well I mean the 8. return to main menu\nYes\nNo\nMaybe\nI don't know\nThank you 23:20:58 I know. 23:21:03 Well, it WILL be slow to type. 23:21:07 ehird, not an option ;P 23:21:16 Yes it is, he can "type". 23:21:22 yes of course 23:21:26 was just joking 23:21:40 yes 23:22:02 Anyway, there's a whole submenu for "answers to shitty questions about black holes and time". 23:22:07 :P 23:22:29 ehird, joke or truth? 23:22:48 black holes my ass 23:23:02 AnMaster: Joke. 23:23:07 ah 23:23:14 oklofog: your ass is probably a black hole. we humans do not have internal lighting 23:23:29 in fact we're woefully unupgradable. we're the iMacs of species! 23:23:37 ! 23:24:07 ehird, the video shows he can move his eyes so why not use an eye tracker and that rather fast interface dasher 23:24:51 it's probably easier to use his throat 23:25:06 ehird, hm... 23:25:24 ehird, seems slow 23:25:30 how does he control the movement though 23:26:02 Presumably with a menu. 23:26:16 " 23:26:16 The computer system attached to his wheelchair is operated by Hawking via an infra-red 'blink switch' clipped onto his glasses. By scrunching his right cheek up, he is able to talk, compose speeches, research papers, browse the World Wide Web and write e-mail. The system also uses radio transmission to provide control over doors in his home and office. 23:26:16 " 23:26:17 ehird, just hope it can hit stop in time 23:26:23 -- the most reliable source imaginable, http://yedda.com/questions/technology_disability_accessibility_5041107413951/ 23:26:28 AnMaster: It? :P 23:26:46 (Does Hawking actually write research papers? TeX must be a bitch.) 23:26:48 err you see the extra space 23:26:50 (Nowadays that is.) 23:26:57 so there was a mess up 23:27:02 Yes, I was joking. 23:27:12 "hope he can stop it" and then change the sentence 23:27:21 thus the messup 23:28:08 ehird, so the throat stuff isn't true? 23:28:15 while you should never change the sentence writing 23:28:17 would be pretty cool to be famous via a ~5 b/s link to the world 23:28:20 I'm sure I read it somewhere. 23:28:31 hmm. 23:28:34 oklofog: scrunching cheeks is 5B/s? 23:28:36 or bits 23:28:51 not really sure how you came to 5 :D 23:28:54 when i say b i mean b, but yeah started thinking it might be a bit too much 23:29:05 he can type b five times a second? 23:29:10 b is bits, B is bytes 23:29:15 i know 23:29:21 hey just checking. 23:29:36 you just thought i meant B by b a few weeks ago 23:29:41 BUT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT OUR kiB VS KiB DISPUTE 23:29:41 or the other way around 23:29:57 ehird, k is always kilo 23:30:01 there is no k the other way 23:30:05 what? 23:30:07 and K is for kelvin 23:30:10 so it is kiB 23:30:13 not KiB 23:30:13 KiB is standardised, but kiB uses the SI-prefix-plus-i logic 23:30:23 oh didn't know that 23:30:24 "A kibibyte (a contraction of kilobinary byte, pronounced KEE-bee-byte) is a unit of information or computer storage, established by the International Electrotechnical Commission in 2000. Its symbol is KiB." 23:30:28 but, it's illogical 23:30:28 and yeah I was going for the second 23:30:30 it should be kiB 23:30:37 so we come into a dispute of standards vs logic! 23:30:47 Although that's not exactly uncommon for standards 23:30:57 The only unobjectionable standard I can think of is SI :-P 23:31:35 [[In The Art of Computer Programming, Donald Knuth proposed that this unit be called a large kilobyte (abbreviated KKB). Other early proposals included using the Greek letter κ for 1024 bytes (and using k exclusively for 1000), bK, K₂B, and others. "KiB" is the only method that has gained any traction.]] 23:31:39 if you removed all the kilos and shit from SI, it would be nice 23:31:40 large kilobyte, KKB 23:31:45 worst name and unit ever 23:31:56 also, kappa? 23:32:00 how ridiculously confusing 23:32:05 large kilokelvin 23:32:08 then again so would any other system where units make sense 23:32:20 (I don't even want to mention K₂B. bK is silly; bKB?) 23:32:42 1 KKK, a hot white temperature 23:32:46 no no 23:32:48 even better 23:32:49 oerjan: burn! 23:32:55 tee hee 23:32:57 hot, burn 23:32:57 KB is 1024, kB is 1000 23:32:58 hot white, KKK 23:32:59 DOUBLE PUN 23:33:05 fits with large/small 23:33:08 K would be nice 23:33:10 and wonderfully confusing 23:33:13 AnMaster: give me a k with the combining dot on top 23:33:19 ehird, ask fizzie 23:33:21 not me 23:33:22 fizzie! 23:33:52 K̇? Or a small K? 23:33:58 Small. 23:34:03 k̇, then. 23:34:17 k = 1000, k = 1024 23:34:19 MWAHAHA 23:34:36 Heh, fizzie's line has a tiny dot, but mine doesn't. Must be a very, very small dot. 23:34:44 gah 23:34:58 Oh. 23:34:59 I just said k. 23:35:18 Stupid copy/paste. 23:35:20 no... I meant 'gah, now I have "a still more glorious dawn awaits, not a sunrise, but a galaxyrise" stuck in my head' 23:35:23 xD 23:35:28 I was talking apart from you. 23:35:31 ah 23:35:39 (Rephrase that awkwardlikely less-so.) 23:35:44 You could use kͥ -- that's k with the combining latin small letter i on top. 23:36:12 k̇ = 1024? 23:36:25 Yes. 23:36:26 That. 23:36:33 (AnMaster.) 23:36:43 Ooh, I know! 23:36:46 fizzie, why a damn combining i? 23:36:50 Serifed k is 1024. 23:36:53 Or sans, whatever. 23:36:59 plus it ends up at k^i 23:37:01 rather than above 23:37:04 for me at least 23:37:12 Not here. 23:37:32 actually looks like: k' 23:37:33 640 𝔨𝔅 should be enough for everyone. 23:37:55 You should have used the fraktur ... numbers. :P 23:38:45 but a bit more blurry 23:38:50 Unfortunately there are only five sets of numbers; 𝟒𝟜𝟦𝟰𝟺. 23:39:43 640 𝔨𝔅 should be enough for everyone. <-- 640 box box? 23:39:53 Nope 23:39:57 640 box box box box 23:39:58 here it is that 23:40:00 At lesat in this font 23:40:03 least' 23:40:04 AnMaster: Fraktur characters again. 23:40:14 Unfortunately there are only five sets of numbers; 𝟒𝟜𝟦𝟰𝟺. <-- those all display! 23:40:55 kcharselect couldn't find your fraktur chars 23:42:09 FireFly: They're outside the BMP, I think that tool had some sort of limitations there. 23:42:13 There's a usenet group called 24hoursupport.helpdesk. Such weird hierarchies. 23:42:23 FireFly: KDE is BMP-only 23:42:30 Oki 23:42:36 (Not even PNG! :-P) 23:45:56 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Autotune5.png <-- why do all sound editing apps use weird UIs like that 23:46:50 ever heard of NATIVE controls? 23:46:58 It looks like real musical equipment, man! Must be usable. 23:47:05 ehird, native controls? 23:47:12 Eh? 23:47:28 you know, you complained seamonkey wasn't using that 23:47:31 and google chrome 23:47:41 I didn't complain Chrome wasn't; Chrome is fine. 23:47:48 Anyway, native controls don't look like real musical equipment. 23:47:52 Therefore how can they possibly be used? 23:48:01 (I especially love those dials; so *easy* to turn with a mouse!) 23:48:15 (AnMaster: yhbt) 23:48:22 ((AnMaster: yhl)) 23:48:25 (((AnMaster: hand))) 23:48:44 and so on 23:48:57 No, the acronym ends there. 23:49:12 eh? 23:49:19 (I especially love those dials; so *easy* to turn with a mouse!) <-- sarcasm? 23:49:29 YHBT YHL HAND 23:49:39 what does that expand to 23:49:45 YHBT YHL HAND, naturally. 23:49:51 ... 23:49:58 how did you think of it 23:50:00 You could, you know, Google it. 23:50:17 thought it was something you just made up 23:51:19 okay.... don't see how it applies here 23:51:22 but whatever 23:51:34 ehird, native controls? 23:51:35 you know, you complained seamonkey wasn't using that 23:51:35 and google chrome 23:51:40 yes 23:51:41 ? 23:51:47 ;_; 23:51:59 I'm well aware of that I said that 23:52:05 always control the natives, i say 23:52:22 ... 23:52:28 controls as in GUI controls 23:52:30 --- 23:52:34 -_-* 23:53:11 well if the gui wants to control natives, i won't be against it 23:53:15 oerjan: let us weep for AnMaster's now even further impaired sarcasm & joke detection system's degradation 23:53:24 his brain is failing. 23:53:25 ramen 23:53:29 ramen 23:53:35 wait, this is a prayer? 23:53:48 Therefore how can they possibly be used? <-- of course that is sarcasm 23:53:51 yes 23:53:55 but I didn 23:54:03 didn't* see how trolling was involved 23:54:06 you accidentally the apostrophe 23:54:15 yes I fixed it 23:54:20 on the next row 23:54:39 AnMaster: because you took the sarcasm as serious and responded in turn with examples of how I'm a hypocrite to like non-native controls 23:54:48 err 23:54:52 no? 23:55:08 ehird, native controls? 23:55:08 you know, you complained seamonkey wasn't using that 23:55:08 and google chrome 23:55:08 ERRNO 23:55:10 seems you did. 23:55:35 ehird, I thought your " Eh?" was that you didn't understand, thus the two extra lines 23:55:55 ehird, native controls? still counts. 23:56:05 true 23:56:17 "If at any point the vision of the observer ended at the surface of a tree, wouldnt the observer only see white? This contradicts the darkness of the night sky and leads many to wonder why we do not see only light from stars in the night sky" --Wikipedia, truly a stellar example. 23:56:21 Wouldnt indeed. 23:56:27 natives don't count. not beyond three, at any rate. 23:56:40 ("If at any point the vision of the observer ended at the surface of a tree, wouldnt the observer only see white" is also a fun example of leaving out some logical steps.) 23:56:58 err 23:57:08 I think I know what that is *supposed* to be 23:57:19 but it is seriously messed up yeah 23:57:39 I think DMM described the basic idea in a podcast 23:57:49 ?? 23:58:28 ehird, if it is about why the night sky isn't pure white 23:58:57 The answer is because the universe isn't infinitely old, but I was more responding to the very shoddy writing. 23:59:22 yes indeed that is the answer 23:59:36 ?? <-- hm? 23:59:45 ??? 23:59:49 You already answered ??. 23:59:51 ...