< 1255738714 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1255738849 0 :augur!n=augur@216.164.33.76 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255739528 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1255743365 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1255746078 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1255749251 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1255749284 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In order to learn to be a Real Programmer, one should write a Forth interpreter in machine-codes (or assembly language). < 1255749371 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One day, in order to learn how to build a computer, I will try to make a computer with z80-based, and a On-Screen-Display chip, a few buttons on the front, keyboard connect, audio, and external memory. < 1255749377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In order to be a Real Programmer, one should learn a defining feature of programmers: laziness. < 1255749418 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can have addresses 0000-3FFF=internal ROM,4000-7FFF=RAM, 8000-BFFF=external memory,C000-FFFF=I/O and OSD < 1255749464 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In order to do it, I should write a emulator, with a option to enable/disable ROM writing, to make the ROM act as RAM instead if you enabled that option, so that it can be written a Forth interpreter with some stuff built-in < 1255749497 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Much of Forth is generally written in Forth itself, so therefore a emulator with that option would be a useful feature to make a Forth system from it. < 1255749546 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Anyone who should be a Real Programmer should learn a few things about machine-codes! < 1255749566 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38: I'm not disputing that. < 1255749585 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1255754354 0 :Warrigal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TI graphing calculators use z80-type processors, don't they? < 1255754427 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm unsure < 1255755235 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, in this spec I'm writing, I don't define what I mean by an "internal key" < 1255755269 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it hardly makes sense to define it in this spec, since the way my product uses it will require more than just this spec < 1255755293 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But not defining it would lead to compatibility issues with anyone who wanted to compete and read my data in < 1255756312 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is this spec for? < 1255756328 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, an upcoming product of mine. < 1255756351 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zzo38, http://docs.google.com/View?id=dgtq868h_62gp6gxtz3 < 1255756361 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to stop publishing soon, so read it < 1255756366 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OK < 1255756412 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"An animation list consists of animation names, followed by spatial specification, possibly followed by camera specification, separated by colons, and an amount of time, in integer milliseconds" needs to be reworded < 1255756434 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the EBNF is incomplete, but afair accurate < 1255756508 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm still unsure what its purpose is < 1255756598 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The product will allow people to set up positions where people who sit on furniture end up sitting < 1255756611 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK. < 1255756611 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Each "seat" can play several animations in order < 1255756618 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With camera changes < 1255756703 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It just occured to me that the spec version shouldn't be specified per seat < 1255756754 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unpublished < 1255756767 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But still accessible WTF? < 1255756769 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WTF WTF WTF < 1255756803 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are control characters allowed in animation names? < 1255756845 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean ASCII control characters? No, because SL doesn't allow it < 1255756863 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O, OK. < 1255756877 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it need not be specified in this spec < 1255757006 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right < 1255757035 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION still has stuff to add to the spec
< 1255757308 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, going to eat now < 1255757311 0 :mad!n=madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1255757331 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone into conlangs? < 1255757350 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit < 1255757552 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1255757586 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you could add a sound or distinction into English, what would you add? :D < 1255758179 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure. < 1255758471 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My ideas of conlangs is a bit of things. One, is that to represent sounds, you would have shapes for "glottal" and "plosive" and "fricative" and so on, and for a glottal stop you somehow combine the shapes for "glottal" and "plosive" together < 1255758551 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then you can add a voice mark (similar to how Japanese has a voice-mark for a voice-sound) < 1255758566 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like, t/d < 1255758574 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1255758592 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about t+glottal :D < 1255758613 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about that < 1255758714 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :korean has something kinda like what you're saying < 1255758736 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :th (aspirate t) is like t with an extra bar < 1255758762 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ph, chh, kh (all aspirate too) have the same extra bar < 1255758897 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but not what I mean. The "voice mark" in Japanese converts "t" to "d" < 1255758928 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1255758947 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's the same thing, except the voice mark is less part of the letter < 1255759053 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O. OK < 1255759057 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some transcription schemes use 'h' for "no voicing" for letters that don't normally have an voiceless version < 1255759073 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I don't know Korean so I wouldn't always know < 1255759338 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmong has hm, hml, hn, hny, hl for instance < 1255759403 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except, Japanese also has a semi-voice-mark, converting 'h' to 'p' (voice-mark converts 'h' to 'b'). Japanese language also uses small 'tsu' to represent a pause (which acts just like any other letter, it can be part of a word) < 1255759439 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both these things might seem strange at first, until you look at many Japanese writing, and you can see how the words are constructed, then it appears logical. < 1255759462 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, that's due to how japanese evolved < 1255759488 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously a semi-voice mark could not apply to english < 1255759514 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically same thing as I mentioned. By reading many Japanese writings, I can see how the logic works why it is like this. < 1255759542 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, usually writing systems follow how languages work < 1255759646 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(The Japanese writing I read mostly is the Akagi manga books) < 1255759771 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much japanese do you know%? < 1255759797 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you think english should be more like japanese? :D < 1255759808 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a lot, but more than many people do < 1255759822 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no opinion on whether or not English should be more like Japanese. < 1255759845 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :English already exists the way it is, and probably shouldn't be change too much except for slight evolve < 1255759850 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh yeah < 1255759864 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want differently, you can make conlangs (which was what you first asked about, anyways) < 1255759889 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, some people think english should be more like japanese? < 1255759905 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually I don't know. < 1255759928 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know whether or not some people think English should be more like Japanese. < 1255759956 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :japanese has a nice feature or two (pronunciation, simple noun morphology) but it more than makes up for that in other ridiculously complex parts (verbs, writing, etc) < 1255759987 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, yes... of course it is. Any language has some wrong parts! < 1255760123 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but some have more :D < 1255760371 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some have huge pronunciation pitfalls or head spinning grammar < 1255760780 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255762687 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Verbs, complex in Japanese? < 1255762691 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lies and deceit! < 1255762761 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Says "natteirareta". < 1255762838 0 :zzo38!n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1255762851 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :asiekierka asked about game of life algorithm < 1255762918 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One algorithm (I don't know whether it meets your criteria or not), is just a simple one: a convolution filter followed by a CLUT < 1255762976 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ImageMagick will do both. < 1255763267 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: well, more like all the system of implicit subjects and objects and stuff :D < 1255763876 0 :zzo38!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1255764400 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1255766399 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1255766400 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1255767959 0 :mad!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Radiateur" < 1255772016 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1255773289 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@82.182.180.137 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255774140 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hrm, my embedded rfk86 font (after generating a SVG vector font out of the bitmaps, and converting that to truetype with fontforge) didn't turn up so great: http://zem.fi/~fis/ugly.png < 1255774202 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The SVG font metrics should make it very very monospaced, but maybe fontforge's doing something silly to it while converting. < 1255775191 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1255775905 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, SVG fonts works as webfonts, don't they? < 1255776173 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1255776193 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1255776830 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not in many browsers. < 1255776838 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Firefox didn't even render a SVG with embedded SVG font. < 1255776854 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Gone.) < 1255778336 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255781859 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1255781859 0 :clog!n=nef@66.114.33.57 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255780467 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1255780467 0 :clog!n=nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1255788255 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whoa, hi clog. < 1255788301 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The tubes are once again clogged < 1255788321 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a dumptruck. < 1255788389 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1255788841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :20:54:29 I mean, it hardly makes sense to define it in this spec, since the way my product uses it will require more than just this spec < 1255788842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Stop calling it a product, you're not a business. < 1255788858 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :21:16:38 The product will allow people to set up positions where people who sit on furniture end up sitting < 1255788859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Damn that's some useful product < 1255789867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :02:09:00 Hrm, my embedded rfk86 font (after generating a SVG vector font out of the bitmaps, and converting that to truetype with fontforge) didn't turn up so great: http://zem.fi/~fis/ugly.png < 1255789867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MY EYES < 1255790314 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not *that* horrible. < 1255790383 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Looks fine to me, apart from the obvious sidebar mess < 1255790473 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The space glyph maybe got dropped, since it has no pixels of content. < 1255790516 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I doubt it got completely dropped, or those blank lines would have two ||s on the left with no space in between < 1255790573 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty happy that a simple "font-size: 12px;" got me a fixed *2 scaling. < 1255790585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It looks nothing like the screenshots, at least. < 1255790588 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Far too blocky. < 1255790614 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe it substitutes a space from somewhere, who knows. < 1255790627 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well... do you have a space character? < 1255790650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is it distinct from the glyph at a codepoint you don't implement? (Maybe "no codepoint"=that) < 1255790653 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then... < 1255790666 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :‽ < 1255790674 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uh, it's the exact same font, with the same scaling than in the screenshots. < 1255790677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1255790698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: Well, okay then. < 1255790727 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Incidentally, who the hell uses Midori? < 1255790743 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(using a phone, expect laggy replies) < 1255790818 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was the least-bytes webkit thing I saw in repo; epiphany wanted some 90M of Gnomish stuff. < 1255790836 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arora is the most popular one, I gather. < 1255790844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But hey, no knocking of Gnomish stuff allowed :P < 1255790889 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really use it. Ff3.5 should do embedded Truetype, but it didn't want to. < 1255790907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is a bad Firefoxy. < 1255790915 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to use a special font format, don't you? < 1255790924 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe. I think that's the "widely"-supported thing. < 1255790946 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255790981 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There were all kinds of gobject-introspection-whatevers I didn't have preinstalled. < 1255791017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1255791020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops. < 1255791044 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The special format is for IE, or at least that's what one cross-browser embed page said. < 1255791077 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Have to look more closely when I get home. < 1255791140 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There was a small CSS trick to make it work simultaneously on IE and others. < 1255791514 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1255791667 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION is fighting with pulseaudio.
< 1255791828 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In what way < 1255791845 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or actually, now with SDL... < 1255792896 0 :impomatic!n=John@217.171.129.66 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255792900 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi :-) < 1255792901 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Geocities sites will be removed after 26 October. :-( < 1255792920 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Has the interesting Esoteric stuff been mirrored already? < 1255792999 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay. Got sound to work. But mplayer no longer works (not related to pulseaudio)... :-/ < 1255793060 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, most don't exist anymore anyway < 1255793069 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When's the last time you fund a functioning geocity site? < 1255793389 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.geocities.com/corewin2 < 1255793458 0 :fax!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1255794562 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh yay, pulseaudio process has 230MiB vmsize... Apparently likes to mmap lots of stuff... < 1255794590 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who cares about the virtual size? < 1255794623 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The wine processes are 2.5 gigs each < 1255794693 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(foobar2000.exe as well as the support processes, explorer.exe, winedevice.exe, services.exe) < 1255795106 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh... Apparently pulseaudio has >200 megs of shared memory segments... < 1255795227 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@82.66.176.74 JOIN :#esoteric < 1255795608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What Deewiant said, who cares about virtual memory? < 1255795619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((Unless you're using some UBER-LAME 32-BIT PROCESSOR or something)) < 1255796045 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even with 32-bit, it is 3GiB of virtual memory per process. < 1255797913 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-18-18.w83-197.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1255798724 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-5-246.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1255800324 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1255801296 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1255801476 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Whoa, hi clog. <-- there is some serious time travel in the logs before that point... < 1255801489 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1255801537 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm? < 1255801553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm what < 1255801628 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What does oerjan mean by time travel in the logs? The bot cutting out? < 1255801638 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :04:17:39 --- names: list (clog BeholdMyGlory Pthing FireFly augur Gracenotes fungot coppro bsmntbombdood Slereah AnMaster lifthrasiir puzzlet Guest76637 Deewiant dbc MizardX ineiros sebbu2 fizzie SimonRC Gregor EgoBot rodgort Ilari pikhq Leonidas comex_ HackEgo mtve Warrigal olsner) < 1255801640 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: a wanderer i guess. especially since i took an english lit class < 1255801644 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :03:54:27 --- log: started esoteric/09.10.17 < 1255801652 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those are two consecutive lines < 1255801662 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255801688 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1255801730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1255801735 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and bbl < 1255801778 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although after all that, it is still at UTC -0700 afaict < 1255801853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm read that as "it is still an UTC -0700 addict" < 1255801855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1255801865 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, that too < 1255801872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now bbl really < 1255801966 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, ? < 1255802014 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you don't use ipot on a daily basis like everybody else ? < 1255802023 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sebbu2: quoted line from the logs < 1255802026 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :er what? < 1255802029 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ipot < 1255802052 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ip over time < 1255802054 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't use apple products < 1255802068 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not < 1255802080 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( i have an old ipod, 40gb ) < 1255802093 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( the new ones have too little capacity storage ) < 1255802097 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION clearly assumed that was an internet-based drug from apple, based on the addict comment
< 1255802131 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i may be using ipot but i don't know what it is < 1255802255 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sebbu2: the only relevant link seems to be in french < 1255802329 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, i'm french, and it was an april fool some year ( it was a protocol to transport ip over time, like accesssing a server in the past or in the future ) < 1255802340 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1255802352 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like ipoac, except there is no real application < 1255802381 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( ip over avian carriers ) < 1255802412 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :( ipoac has already been used IRL ) < 1255802462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION wonders if that recent south african experiment used ipoac but doubts it
< 1255802691 0 :davidz!n=david@188-23-166-139.adsl.highway.telekom.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1255802809 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION chunks Pulseaudio into trashbin... The pulseaudio alsa driver is just plain too unstable.
< 1255802831 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just pulsating, silly < 1255802885 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deadlocks, wild CPU usage, assertion failures... < 1255802892 0 :davidz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe wrong channel. i need some moon freaks :D < 1255802974 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And of course the pulseaudio binary is u+s (I did u-s to it) and is the classic for exploiting NULL pointer derefs. < 1255803005 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :davidz: one day we'll make the topic accurate again. at least for a few minutes. < 1255803043 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no, it's not about that kind of esotericism < 1255803071 0 :davidz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i cannot find those esoteric guys around here. it seems they don't like irc... < 1255803086 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freenode may not be the best bet anyway < 1255803102 0 :davidz!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does somebody in here want to beta test a moon app for hte iphone? < 1255803149 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION already has a wall calendar with moon phases
< 1255803191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and no iphone, for that matter < 1255803274 0 :davidz_!n=david@188-23-163-114.adsl.highway.telekom.at JOIN :#esoteric < 1255803358 0 :davidz_!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1255803586 0 :davidz!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1255804188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, meaningless esoteric bullshit + trendy phone < 1255804191 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ironic and amusing < 1255804398 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"meaningless esoteric bullshit"? All he said was "moon freaks" < 1255804431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I can't imagine why anyone would assume this was about moon stuff except that < 1255804440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless there is esoteric astronomy or something. < 1255804462 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie *SPLAT* < 1255804473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: [18:11] davidz: i cannot find those esoteric guys around here. it seems they don't like irc... < 1255804476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's clearly about esooterica. < 1255804478 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*esoterica < 1255804488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which, yes, is bullshit < 1255804547 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :the world ends: ais523 has actually been thinking about Feather | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | This is about esoteric programming languages. < 1255804569 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Being interested in that stuff doesn't mean you're full of bullshit. < 1255804579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you'll note that I never claimed that < 1255804585 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:e < 1255804593 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your tone somewhat suggested it < 1255804593 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what kind of mouth e is. < 1255804597 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-E < 1255804609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I was calling the thing stupid, not the person < 1255804623 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Whatever < 1255804636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although if you go to all the trouble of making an iPhone app for some esoterica there's a good chance that you do buy into the bullshit < 1255804644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you are boring < 1255804674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, that sentence is totally false, for the majority of reasonable definitions of this < 1255804689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it would be a goal. < 1255804698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say it was true right now < 1255804704 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't mean that. < 1255804715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I have been coding on cfunge today < 1255804763 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't mean that. < 1255804766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :code cleanup mostly. Dropping the boehm-gc support (it was slow, buggy and not well tested, plus caused quite a lot of messy code due to #ifdefs in various places) < 1255804775 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still only in a local branch though < 1255804784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh also working on integrating your cygwin fixes < 1255804817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What was that fingerprint that didn't work in Cygwin? < 1255804840 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, why does boehm need ifdefs? < 1255804844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, as far as remember it was PERL wasn't it? < 1255804853 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it was TERM or something. < 1255804862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes, TERM and NCRS < 1255804885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway I have been working on integrating the other parts. < 1255804904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but right now I'm trying to figure out how to manually compile bleeding edge gcc < 1255804915 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, if I said that I'm writing specs for something, will you scream? < 1255804931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, because the chance that anyone else will read them is roughly nil. < 1255804962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: By the way, the getaddrinfo thing is only needed for IPv6, iirc. < 1255804967 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My competitors will read them if they want to make something compatible with my product < 1255804968 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Isn't there another function just for v4? < 1255804980 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Get over yourself, you're not a company and you don't have any competitors or products. < 1255804992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm iirc the alternative is deprecated or obsolete or something < 1255804997 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, 1/3 < 1255805003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, well, you could argue that Windows is too. < 1255805004 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of what you said is correct < 1255805004 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: 77/42 < 1255805020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, gethostbyname? Maybe < 1255805061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, Deewiant, btw I hit an odd issue with mycology and/or ubuntu recently. < 1255805147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was not connected to any network (that is, out of wlan range, no ethernet), mycology tests in SCKE keept failing. Didn't have time to check more right then. But what exactly is it resolving? < 1255805152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wasn't it localhost? < 1255805170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is localhost in /etc/hosts? < 1255805180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that was the *first* thing I checked < 1255805192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes it was < 1255805194 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You never know. < 1255805195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and is < 1255807183 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1255810339 0 :oklopol!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1255810368 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :helloes, my computer rebooted, and i was too lazy to reopen freenode < 1255810497 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2lzy2tpe < 1255810559 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k < 1255810685 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i've done some querying, and it seems limits aren't taught rigorously for all our computer science students either. < 1255811353 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1255811392 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1255811847 0 :impomatic!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"mov.i #1,1" < 1255812409 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ha, well, that explains why the font embedding examples don't work in my Firefox: noscript.forbidFonts, default, boolean, true. < 1255812420 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's indeed a "forbid @font-face" checkbox set in the options. < 1255812479 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also explains why noscript had that "I've blocked some stuff" icon for the page even though I have no actual scripts there; I did wonder about that. < 1255812508 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I love how NoScript disables stuff that isn't a script in any way nor resembles one at all! < 1255812511 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cool beans. < 1255812534 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure there have been security problems with maliciously crafted truetype fonts. < 1255812554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I very much doubt that. (Was that a joke?) < 1255812579 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's the first google hit: http://xforce.iss.net/xforce/xfdb/47103 < 1255812589 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Admittedly it's for the java runtime and does not really apply.) < 1255812628 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't they have some sort of virtual-machine bytecode thing for hinting and all? < 1255812637 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Everything like that has security bugs. < 1255812689 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's another in FreeType 2: http://www.vuxml.org/freebsd/4fb43b2f-46a9-11dd-9d38-00163e000016.html < 1255812706 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"one-byte heap-based buffer overflow via a specially crafted TTF file". < 1255812750 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, it resembles a script in the "2. handwriting, hand, script -- (something written by hand; "she recognized his handwriting"; "his hand was illegible")" sense. :p < 1255812978 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, in Ff it also converted "font-weight: bold;" sections into some really ugly blurry antialiased mess. < 1255813231 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Illegal object error. < 1255813406 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "forbid @font-face" must be pretty new, it only appeared when I updated just now < 1255813467 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It also seems to be just the space glyph that has the wrong size; I have a tag in the SVG for the space with an empty d="" path argument, and loaded in fontforge that turns into a 'X' which I think means no-glyph; if I "modify" it by dragging the borders around, I get a blank square. I guess I need to put something in the glyph so that fontforge won't ignore it. < 1255813478 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TOLD YOU < 1255813763 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, putting a "M0,0" dummy-path there "fixed" it; it's invisible, but it's still a glyph as far as fontforge is concerned. Maybe not the most elegant solution ever. < 1255813932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Try deleting the path now >:) < 1255813966 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's still wrong line-spacing for the font; there are small gaps between the vertical line-drawing characters. (Even though the vertical advance should be 1em by default, and I have units-per-em="576" and the character polygons are 576 units high. < 1255814150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You know, I'd just use one image per character and some JS to auto-do it rather than fight fontforge's insanity. < 1255814157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION screams
< 1255814164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate gcc build system < 1255814174 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh. I thought you'd stubbed a toe. < 1255814179 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :full bootstrap, worked, except that it ignored my LDFLAGS in building stage3 < 1255814190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus meaning it ignored -rpath < 1255814228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means I either have to use LD_LIBRARY_PATH every time I want to use it, or try to figure out how to make it not ignore that flag (pretty sure I managed it before even so...) < 1255814243 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(on another computer) < 1255814282 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :idea: don't build gcc < 1255814345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, what do you suggest instead? < 1255814354 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't, really. < 1255814360 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just generally not worth the effor < 1255814367 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I want to be a real font when I grow up. Strange, though; ascent+descent == em size, and the full-height characters are em-size units high. I guess something somewhere might be confused by my non-standard not-a-power-of-two em-size, but it's not very easy to find a integer N such that 2^N is evenly divisible by 6 (number of rows in the bitmaps). < 1255814371 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although you could try clang if you're just using it for C) < 1255814377 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Idea: murder their build system. < 1255814405 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why oh why do they not actually use autoconf/autotools (or a superior alternative)? < 1255814468 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, the easy fix: CSS line-height: 12px; -- it even works in this browser. < 1255814583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Why oh why do they not actually use autoconf/autotools (or a superior alternative)? <-- what are they using then? < 1255814587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks autoconf-like < 1255814635 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's autoconf and custom Makefile.in, IIRC. < 1255814650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1255814658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION maintained such systems
< 1255814669 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1255814670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really if you are going to use autoconf, use automake too. < 1255814685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :autoconf but no automake is way way way worse than autoconf+automake < 1255814711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course autoconf+automake is still a pain < 1255814729 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autoconf+automake is kinda bad, but at least it's consistent and understood... < 1255814752 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autoconf+custom Makefile.in makes baby Jesus cry. < 1255814778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, consistent I agree about. But "understood"? < 1255814788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how is custom one harder to understand as such < 1255814793 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Good point. < 1255814801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except as a side effect of being inconsistent < 1255814812 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All that's understood about autoconf+automake is how to deal with it. < 1255814813 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I once learned COBOL < 1255814826 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The internal functioning is... Incomprehensible. < 1255814857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, my point here was that the "less understood"-ing of autoconf+custom Makefile.in is just a side effect of the inconsistency. < 1255814866 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah. < 1255814882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is pretty easy to understand a Makefile.in you wrote yourself < 1255814922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the thing is simply that configure substitutes @FOO@ with FOO defined using some autoconf macro < 1255814951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makefile.am differs a *lot* more from the final Makefile than Makefile.in does < 1255814979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually there might have been a conditional thing too in .in.. Analogous to #ifdef in C basically < 1255814982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure about that though < 1255814991 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is < 1255815002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, sure it isn't for automake only? < 1255815021 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1255815046 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And then there's GNU Make's conditionals. < 1255815075 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So many freaking layers to the GNU buildsystem...\ < 1255815103 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have been working with SCons recently and very much like it < 1255815130 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCons is kinda poor. < 1255815146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmake is quite nice apart from a slightly verbose syntax. < 1255815155 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In that it's not a build system so much as it is a library with which you could reasonably *write* a build system. < 1255815157 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: why are you bothering to point that out to someone who doesn't dislike C++ :) < 1255815176 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ??? < 1255815180 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... Oh, right. < 1255815184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro uses C++ and doesn't dislike it < 1255815190 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure enough. < 1255815201 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(he avoids the term "like" explicitly and I'm doing in kind, but it fools nobody :P) < 1255815208 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: The beatings shall continue until good taste evolves. < 1255815215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION punches coppro
< 1255815217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll help! < 1255815221 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: the thing is, though, that you can extend it however you want < 1255815233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That could refer to both Scons and C++, and that scares me. < 1255815245 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not to C++... < 1255815283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also: guys, the wired internet we can get here... will range from 3 to 4 megabits. The maximum speed of this 3G stick? 3.7 megabits. Yeaah... even the US is better than this in good places (erm, right?) < 1255815286 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCons is entirely internally replaceable and extensible, other build systems make this difficult, in my experience < 1255815310 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the old place i could get 800KiB/s out of an 8Mb (= 1024KiB/s) connection :( < 1255815325 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't help that we're on the exchange of the nearby town Prudhoe < 1255815328 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: The same is true of Autoconf, Cmake, custom shell scripts, custom Perl scripts, and even "To build, cc *.c -o foo". < 1255815330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in hexham there was an exchange in town < 1255815345 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yah, halp < 1255815358 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: if you ever need or want to totally replace or extend it, it's broken < 1255815412 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: No. Anything based on Make directly or indirectly has limitations of Make's irritating dependency system < 1255815455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish there was a dance with accompanying song going like: "working around the limitations of the language in tools, yeah yeah yeah" because I would dance and also sing it. < 1255815472 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And anything based on SCons inherently has the limitations of IT BASICALLY BEING A CUSTOM PYTHON SCRIPT WHICH HAPPENS TO USE A LIBRARY FOR THE BUILDING. < 1255815495 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCons: I'm certain we can make Python into a declarative language if we try hard enough. < 1255815495 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Should I learn Scala? < 1255815509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1255815516 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I learnt it, liked it, realised it sucked, and yeah. < 1255815524 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I will admit that Make is kinda poor. But SCons is a step backward from Autotools. < 1255815539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It sucks mainly because you still have 90% of the shit from Java pissing you off, but also because of some language flaws.) < 1255815543 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(still better than Ant -- that's a step backward from Make.) < 1255815550 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: WHOA, I'm not sure I'd go that far (wrt scons/autotools) < 1255815571 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's just call them equals near the bottom of the good-build-system list. < 1255815606 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: But Scons isn't even a build system. < 1255815621 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Neither is autotools, it's actually an incarnation of Cthulhu. < 1255815630 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Touche. < 1255815680 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just out of curiosity, how do you define it as not being a build system? < 1255815704 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because you only have to run one program for it to work? < 1255815813 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, but because you are writing a somewhat involved Python script which happens to make a few calls to Scons at times. < 1255815861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : in the old place i could get 800KiB/s out of an 8Mb (= 1024KiB/s) connection :( <-- that is quite good. Around what I get from mine < 1255815883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not good compared to the 50Mb you can easily get elsewhere. < 1255815894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, elsewhere being big cities? < 1255815904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, e.g. Sweden/Finland/Norway. < 1255815917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sorry, you can't get that in small towns < 1255815923 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and not over ADSL anywhere I bet < 1255815932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :False. < 1255815937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't like 24 MBps the limit of ADSL? < 1255815953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cable or fibre can give you more yes < 1255815957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you mean to say is "you can't get that in my small town". < 1255815957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You mean ADSL2+. < 1255815963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, maybe < 1255815970 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, you do. < 1255815982 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is there ADSL3 then? < 1255815983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know ADSL/ADSL2+, and you mean ADSL2+. < 1255815988 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. There is fibre-optic. < 1255815995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That is what the 50Mb connections are. < 1255816004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well I was saying the limit of ADSL. With that I mean ADSL* < 1255816015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well,* < 1255816034 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ADSL is a worthless hack anyway. Fibre-optic is the only sane internet delivering system... < 1255816069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1255816083 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If only companies would offer to charge you an insanely expensive set up fee, as opposed to just saying "nope, haven't laid pipes there yet". < 1255816090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually... < 1255816107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think there are plans on some soft of fibre optic gird in this town < 1255816109 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, "env = Environment(ENV = {'PATH' : os.environ['PATH']})" is criminal. < 1255816128 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We'll probably get the cheapest >4Mb connection we can find, just for the lower latency than 3G... < 1255816133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...but it's really, really annoying. < 1255816146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, erhm... what is env after that < 1255816157 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A unicorn. < 1255816168 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it seems we have set too many layers of PATH there < 1255816177 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh? < 1255816196 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're making no sense. < 1255816204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sec... < 1255816217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ugh, why am I getting so tired these days? < 1255816232 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: That's creating an environment object which has PATH equal to the global environment's PATH. < 1255816234 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Exactly coinciding with moving, in fact. < 1255816267 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe because this room has no curtain, and possibly I need a brighter light. < 1255816279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :To me it reads like: < 1255816279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :env = Environment(ENV = {'PATH' : os.environ['PATH']}) < 1255816279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ^ ^ ^ < 1255816279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Assign env | Set ENV to ... < 1255816279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Create environment from... < 1255816286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assuming monospaced font < 1255816289 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You fail at Python forever. < 1255816290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it won't be readable < 1255816294 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*fail Python < 1255816296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh yeah it is python. right < 1255816297 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Meme mistakes! < 1255816306 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"ENV =" is your slipup. < 1255816306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then it makes a bit more sense < 1255816307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/Set ENV to/the ENV argument is/ < 1255816310 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, pikhq, it should be ENV= < 1255816317 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, yes indeed < 1255816330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, but why. What other sort of argument could an environment have < 1255816333 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Yeah. < 1255816347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ENV = environment variables < 1255816350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Other things = cflags, etc < 1255816355 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: CPPPATH, < 1255816357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1255816361 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SCons::Environment != OS::Environment < 1255816361 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCFLAGS, etc. < 1255816367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Scons::Environment contains OS::Environment < 1255816377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cflags is also an environment variable to me, but whatever < 1255816387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, in Make. < 1255816392 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: how involved the python script is depends on what your building < 1255816399 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*you're < 1255816402 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: we've used SCons too, you know < 1255816406 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably for longer than you < 1255816410 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we know how it works. < 1255816424 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonetheless, I feel an urge to correct any generalizations < 1255816435 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, expert. < 1255816444 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i've even eaten scones < 1255816447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess we're just misguided and don't have any valid complaints whatsoever. < 1255816471 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: env = Environment(ENV=os.environ) is already going beyond what should be needed... < 1255816493 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to do it, you know < 1255816562 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Technically true; also useless. < 1255816600 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Do if you don't want to blithly ignore CC, CFLAGS, and friends... < 1255816652 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not of the opinion such things should be environment vars... that said, I do wish it had make's command-line configuration ability < 1255816660 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(without you adding it, that is) < 1255816667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*blink* < 1255816680 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*blank* < 1255816686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, was that a yes or no < 1255816718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Explicit handling of CC and CFLAGS is a sign that you're doing it REALLY FUCKING WRONG. < 1255816726 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think CFLAGS should be an env var, but I would like more scons CFLAGS=*bla* < 1255816793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay I just edited the generated Makefile of GCC in a hope that it would help... < 1255816803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/of/for/ < 1255816804 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck < 1255816812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, actually it seems to now. So far < 1255816821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stage2 compiles cleanly now < 1255816845 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION kills the GCC build system with an electrified spork
< 1255816857 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, you're not qualified to. < 1255816858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, replace it with cmake. < 1255816863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, agreed < 1255816867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :scons here would be even worse < 1255816881 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION thinks for a second, then does the same thing to the entire source tree
< 1255816887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would probably mean rewriting large parts of it just to get it to listen to LDFLAGS. < 1255816925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah wait no need to edit makefile < 1255816934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I could override by setting those on command line of make < 1255816936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would be < 1255816958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make BOOT_LDFLAGS='...' LDFLAGS_FOR_TARGET='...' < 1255816971 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_o < 1255817000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no I'm not crosscompiling < 1255817037 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.scons.org/doc/production/HTML/scons-user/x4076.html ... < 1255817044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also ... is replaced with -Wl,-rpath,/home/... < 1255817052 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not applied recursively ;P) < 1255817077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, what do you think of cmake? Apart from the overly verbose syntax < 1255817101 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Cmake is rather well-done. < 1255817114 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And its syntax doesn't seem all that verbose... < 1255817114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, not the syntax though. You can't claim that. < 1255817126 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Though it apparently used to be. < 1255817128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, if and endif? < 1255817135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and else < 1255817140 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmake is based on make :( < 1255817144 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if(foo) bar endif(foo)" is how they used to do it. :( < 1255817149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, what is wrong with that? < 1255817153 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and "based" is wrong word < 1255817161 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're right, it is < 1255817166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"uses" is better < 1255817167 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but make sucks. It really does. < 1255817174 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: No, the make backend is merely one backend. < 1255817174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, oh, go use ant < 1255817181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what pikhq said < 1255817198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "if(foo) bar endif(foo)" is how they used to do it. :( <-- used to? They dropped that? < 1255817199 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, because I really want to make an IDE project :/ < 1255817199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When? < 1255817202 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you're a proponent of something that's less capable than Cmake. Shaddup. < 1255817205 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 2.6. < 1255817206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Can we stop talking about shitty compilers for shitty languages and their shitty tools? < 1255817209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thx < 1255817213 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: no < 1255817216 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: "if(foo) bar endif()" now. < 1255817218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shut up, C++ user. < 1255817224 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: They're still relevant. < 1255817236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it's so upsetting. < 1255817240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, hm. that () seems a bit out of place < 1255817242 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or, you know, not. < 1255817244 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are so not relevant < 1255817245 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it's mildly irritating! < 1255817264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: your mom is irrelevant < 1255817264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh snap < 1255817273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1255817276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :best one ever < 1255817283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, that was pretty terrible < 1255817301 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... /me starts wondering whether cmake can be considered a build system < 1255817313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, the classic zealot tactic < 1255817320 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol < 1255817326 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, and this is the embodiment of evil: http://www.scons.org/doc/production/HTML/scons-user/x4105.html < 1255817331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, from the point of view of being a good insult yes. From the point of view of being funny, no < 1255817333 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"And now... I will search for tenuous ways to attack YOUR favoured system! Arguments? Fuck arguments, I'll attack YOUR preferences!" < 1255817346 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"if not env.GetOption('clean')"? AAAAAAAAAGH! < 1255817353 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Your build system was written by fags! QED. I win, you are incorrect." < 1255817358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :env.GetOption? < 1255817373 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no disagreement on that point < 1255817387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, ways that is not pythonic: CamelCase. Saying "get" in a method name in that way, ever. Not using ['foo'] instead. < 1255817388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1255817394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that supposed to be build rule? < 1255817395 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, everything apart from the "env."! < 1255817400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so aargh indeed < 1255817404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: scons has no build rules < 1255817405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :really < 1255817412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact it's hard to say what it does have < 1255817414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how does it do incremental rebuilds then < 1255817418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or is it like ant? < 1255817427 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Badly. But yes, it does them. < 1255817431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1255817443 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you call functions of the environment to indicate you want to build a given target < 1255817445 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The build commands for scons each only build if necessary. < 1255817449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It basically shoehorns Python into a declarative language, and then adds a tiny imperative wrapper over your build declarations that are 99% imperative code. < 1255817458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, that doesn't even make sense in any way whatsoever < 1255817462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Except it's actually implemented even more shitty than that) < 1255817464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about out of source tree builds < 1255817471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in build tree != source tree < 1255817474 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: What's that got to do with anything, yes it does that < 1255817477 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it is actually a freaking Python script and going all imperative, executing each one in order. < 1255817491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah. Was almost suspecting it would fail badly at that too < 1255817502 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually very good at that one < 1255817515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1255817528 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: env.Program('program', ['source.c', 'more-source.c'])... it process all such calls, orders up the dependencies, and then executes them < 1255817532 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The "out of tree part", perhaps. The "build" part, no. < 1255817537 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as appropriate) < 1255817538 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Both are required to be good at out of tree builds. < 1255817540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tree" part < 1255817542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, indeed < 1255817554 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a way, I wish that someone would replace make with something that does exactly what make does, but better. Nuking such stupid "features" as "not supporting spaces in filenames" and "not knowing WTF quoting is"... < 1255817567 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, it's probably best to stop defending SCons, coppro; our collective knowledge of it almost certainly exceeds yours. < 1255817586 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: I do not disagree with that < 1255817612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, um anyone using a space in a filename of a source file should be shot anyway < 1255817615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Kind of like how you don't dislike C++ eh < 1255817617 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: no < 1255817628 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Joke, see, it was a joke. < 1255817636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Why? Is this the 80s? Also, since when is make only for code? < 1255817658 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried using make to do some massive format conversion on some media files. < 1255817662 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Personally I'd love to have an ecosystem where we can name something what it is without concern for stupid backwards-compatibility that's actually just with tools, not the underlying system. < 1255817665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, because typing $EDITOR "foo bar.c" is more work than $EDITOR foo_bar.c < 1255817667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1255817670 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :another "feature" to nuke is the total lack of any ability to generate dependencies dynamically < 1255817670 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :↑ < 1255817679 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Untrue. < 1255817680 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: anyone who thinks spaces shouldn't be used in filenames should get a better os. < 1255817682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : I tried using make to do some massive format conversion on some media files. <-- Um... You are doing it wrong < 1255817686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can have a target that generates a Makefile < 1255817690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that just isn't what make is meant for < 1255817690 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: DING! < 1255817691 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Retard. < 1255817693 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WRONG < 1255817696 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was not meant as a build system < 1255817698 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Lern2history < 1255817699 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes it is. < 1255817716 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: was just about to say that doesn't count < 1255817718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"%.ogg: %.flac" -- This should just plain work. < 1255817719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh really? Interesting. Care to link me to it? < 1255817721 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it requires two passes < 1255817729 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Nope, you can dig yourself out of the hole < 1255817736 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Oh come on; tenuous. It's behind-the-scenes, it automatically reloads. < 1255817751 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But FYI, it was intended to transform any sort of file into another < 1255817762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And didn't give any thought to "projects", thus why using it as a build system is such a bitch) < 1255817765 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_(software) < 1255817766 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<3 Plan 9 < 1255817771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, mhm < 1255817806 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: but not at all useful... for instance, you have to have those files exist (as blank files) before you generate them. < 1255817809 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just use objects that use other objects and never need to build, what about you guys? Don't you use ehirdOS? :-) < 1255817829 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Eh? No... < 1255817838 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Uh... No. < 1255817842 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what? < 1255817844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...just...no... < 1255817844 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explain this to me! < 1255817849 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's... simply false. < 1255817852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Untrue. < 1255817854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Opposite of truth. < 1255817870 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explain how then < 1255817871 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ehird does not explain, he mocks < 1255817885 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: shut up idiot < 1255817886 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq might < 1255817887 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1255817888 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: You don't have to have those files exist before you generate them. < 1255817891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: It just isn't true. < 1255817892 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's all there is to it. < 1255817895 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no element of truth to it. < 1255817905 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: in my experience, make errors out if you try to use another makefile that doesn't exist < 1255817906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How can we explain anything that's simply plainly, boringly false? < 1255817920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: ...that's totally unrelated to anything we've said < 1255817924 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant a target with the filename "Makefile" < 1255817925 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, it warns. And attempts to make the file you included. < 1255817929 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Read the GNU Make manual to find out what it doeses < 1255817931 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1255817932 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But what pikhq said too < 1255817946 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was thinking -MD style generated includes < 1255817948 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It errors out if there's no rule to build that file. < 1255817962 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that happen as a side effect of other compilations < 1255817977 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"include foo.d bar.d baz.d" in a Makefile implies the rule "Makefile: foo.d bar.d baz.d". < 1255818007 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THE FACT THAT I JUST EXPLAINED THINGS :P < 1255818016 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ask oklopol < 1255818019 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1255818020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant oklopol < 1255818039 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What you do is create a rule for "%.d: %.c", and you've got automagic dependencies. < 1255818042 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: i bet you just did it to mock me < 1255818046 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(shame that's not an implicit rule) < 1255818053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklopol: i did it totally accidentally in fact < 1255818062 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: huh, I never thought of that < 1255818064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :swett < 1255818065 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sweet < 1255818071 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: ah, I suppose that would work < 1255818074 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: In the GNU Make info page. < 1255818078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I always find myself overriding the default rules because there's spaces for variables I didn't use < 1255818082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they annoy me :) < 1255818084 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, info. < 1255818098 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can get it as HTLM. < 1255818099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*HTML < 1255818103 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just google "gnu make manual" < 1255818104 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that. < 1255818113 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still, ugh, info < 1255818117 0 :oklopol!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: too tired to think of an answer < 1255818150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :info isn't that bad. Compared to, for example, .chm < 1255818162 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1255818170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :virtualbox comes with documentation in .chm format < 1255818171 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, don't knock .chm too much. < 1255818172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even on linux < 1255818179 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION fiddles around some more trying to get make to handle precompiled headers in a sane manner
< 1255818181 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need to have kchmviewer installed < 1255818186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're probably mocking it because it's a Windows thing, but it's a fairly well-designed hypertext system. < 1255818196 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :info is *at least* 100 times worse. < 1255818200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh what about old .hlp then? < 1255818206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember generating those < 1255818213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty similar, really. < 1255818214 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Info's a bit of a hack. < 1255818228 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It at least works decently, but... Yeah, it's a hack. < 1255818233 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU seems to do a lot of hacks. < 1255818241 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know what the best (not) thing about make and precompiled headers is? I can't get it to work because GCC is broken. < 1255818249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1255818250 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1255818253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :info does not work decently < 1255818259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :every time I run it I quit without getting a solutioino < 1255818260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well info syntax isn't quite as bad as man page syntax IMO < 1255818261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*solution < 1255818263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well,* < 1255818263 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's painful to navigate < 1255818264 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :info is the emacs version of man < 1255818270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no it's not < 1255818271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, use a better viewer < 1255818274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, like pinfo < 1255818276 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except without the usefulness < 1255818276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that analogy doesn't even make sense < 1255818284 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, info is a hypertext system. < 1255818284 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird < 1255818285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure the default info application is horrible < 1255818285 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :emacs simple editing = vim simple editing in usage < 1255818294 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :info(1) is unusable, unlike man(1) < 1255818296 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ehird: lots of needless complexity < 1255818298 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in even its most basic usage < 1255818303 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man is not hypertext, it's just text. < 1255818306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you know that emacs has a built info reader right? < 1255818307 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: info is the GNU software < 1255818312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, which works very well < 1255818313 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are talking about it, as well as the underlying format < 1255818315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I do, it's bad < 1255818316 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: was comparing emacs to a plain text editor, not to vim, of course < 1255818322 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Worse than man(1), like every info reader < 1255818346 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man isn't itself a reader < 1255818352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes that I agree about, but man doesn't work well for large stuff, like emacs docs. Imagine all the documentation of emacs in a single man page < 1255818354 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pinfo is alright IMO < 1255818359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed < 1255818367 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Man is a shell script that does nroff with appropriate options and pipes it into PAGER. < 1255818380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION views ls(1) in Xcode, which converts it to HTML first, just to annoy a large section of the participants in the current discussion
< 1255818381 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1255818393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mac haters, gui haters, ide haters, man haters, html ubiquity haters < 1255818403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, wrong < 1255818406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ file /usr/bin/man -L < 1255818406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/man: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.15, stripped < 1255818408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1255818409 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :discussion? WTF! I'm leaving < 1255818409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is gnu < 1255818411 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARE YOU ANNOYED < 1255818415 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Really, it's not a shell script? < 1255818416 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: wat < 1255818416 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1255818421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, may be on *bsd < 1255818426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't have one handy < 1255818432 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a BSD handy! < 1255818435 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... So it's a *program* that does system(nroff) and system(PAGER)... < 1255818438 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*facepalm* < 1255818447 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[~]$ file $(which man) < 1255818448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* ehird views ls(1) in Xcode, which converts it to HTML first, just to annoy a large section of the participants in the current discussion <-- konqueror man:/ < 1255818451 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I'm getting annoyed at the wrong part of your sentence. It's supposed to be slightly funny < 1255818461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/man: Mach-O universal binary with 2 architectures < 1255818461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/man (for architecture i386): Mach-O executable i386 < 1255818461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/man (for architecture ppc7400): Mach-O executable ppc < 1255818464 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: Eh? < 1255818469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh < 1255818470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, of course firefox or nautilus can't do it < 1255818471 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even on Solaris: /usr/bin/man: ELF 32-bit MSB executable SPARC Version 1, dynamically linked, stripped < 1255818471 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Har har < 1255818472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1255818484 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Firefox can open apt:pkg, I'm sure it could handle man: < 1255818500 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Anyway, that fails to annoy mac haters and ide haters < 1255818517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, there will be KDE haters and Konqueror haters, but mine annoys a probably-larger subset < 1255818531 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, about apt, is just a protocol handler calling an external program < 1255818540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, man:/ in konq renders it nicely inside konq < 1255818544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Several questions are raised, such as "why god why do you have a Solaris system to hand" < 1255818545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it supports info pages too < 1255818547 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Eh, whatever < 1255818550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it works fairly well for them too < 1255818561 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Because my school has them. < 1255818563 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Xcode doesn't add any styling to the man page so it's pretty ugly < 1255818583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although you can navigate to a section in the manpage in the little toolbar above it, which amuses me < 1255818586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Someone coded that! < 1255818599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Although it probably just does it for every HTML page, since all the OS X docs are HTML) < 1255818612 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Konqueror uses the same stylesheet as it uses for KDE's HTML documentation, I think. < 1255818673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay managed to build gcc correctly < 1255818683 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lies < 1255818705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1255818717 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no such thing as building gcc correctly :P < 1255818721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it compiles cfunge correctly < 1255818729 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: I wonder how Gentoo gets by? < 1255818748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, gentoo even offers installing multiple versions side by side easily < 1255818751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something I use < 1255818759 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I know < 1255818760 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so do most distros < 1255818762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make sure I still stay compatible with older compilers < 1255818772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know, I'm fairly sure that the correct response to bad jokes isn't to take them seriously < 1255818776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, do they offer switching default system version too? < 1255818783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they'll just think you didn't get it < 1255818795 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not sure. < 1255818801 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, actually I thought it was a bad insult < 1255818803 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1255818805 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than a joke < 1255818814 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same thing; obviously there is a proper way to build gcc. < 1255818820 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The joke and insult is in suggesting that you can't. < 1255818848 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/cc is a symlink to /etc/alternatives/cc < 1255818857 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed then I guess < 1255818863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and doesn't surprise me < 1255818878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[~]$ which cc < 1255818882 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/cc < 1255818883 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hai < 1255818889 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/cc < 1255818891 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though it does not have alternatives for gcc < 1255818894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ type c99 < 1255818894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[~]$ ls -l $(which cc) < 1255818894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c99 is /usr/bin/c99 < 1255818895 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lrwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 7 12 Feb 2009 /usr/bin/cc -> gcc-4.0 < 1255818903 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wow that is old < 1255818908 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[~]$ ls -l $(which c99) < 1255818909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-r-xr-xr-x 1 root wheel 42816 27 Jun 2008 /usr/bin/c99 < 1255818916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I'm using Leopard < 1255818921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In Snow Leopard, most shit uses LLVM/Clang < 1255818924 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And also: < 1255818926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 4.0 is so buggy that I don't even bother testing with it < 1255818926 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/bin/cc: a /usr/bin/perl -w script text executable < 1255818933 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[~]$ ls -l $(which gcc-4.2) < 1255818933 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-rwxr-xr-x 1 root wheel 105680 1 Oct 2008 /usr/bin/gcc-4.2 < 1255818934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, why on earth XD < 1255818941 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I bet Snow Leopard has a newer version, too < 1255818943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what exactly is your /usr/bin/c99 < 1255818944 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: colorgcc < 1255818954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, err ok < 1255818957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[~]$ c99 --version < 1255818957 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :c99: illegal option -- - < 1255818958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usage: c99 [-cEgs] [-D name[=value]] [-I directory] ... [-L directory] ... < 1255818958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : [-o outfile] [-O optlevel] [-U name]... [-W 64] operand ... < 1255818962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: POSIX-compliant thing, I guess. < 1255818964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll just call gcc. < 1255818976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ah hm < 1255818982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C99(1) BSD General Commands Manual C99(1) < 1255818983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NAME < 1255818983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : c99 -- standard C language compiler < 1255818990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :STANDARDS < 1255818991 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : The c99 utility interface conforms to IEEE Std 1003.1-2001 (``POSIX.1''). < 1255819011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay mine does this.. < 1255819013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exec gcc -std=c99 -pedantic -U_FORTIFY_SOURCE ${1+"$@"} < 1255819020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why on earth -U_FORTIFY_SOURCE < 1255819027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For additional fortification! < 1255819031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, read again < 1255819033 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-U not -D < 1255819038 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And? < 1255819048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Is that undefine? < 1255819054 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, the extra fortification must kill it, I guess. < 1255819056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what reason is there to undefine that one. < 1255819061 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1255819071 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe forts are bad. < 1255819072 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Be open! < 1255819074 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Open sores! < 1255819137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, while I'm aware of that you are just being silly (and not funny) atm, do you actually know what _FORTIFY_SOURCE does? < 1255819144 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1255819153 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google it. < 1255819197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, add overflow checks, so that stuff like sprintf with a too small buffer (if the size of the buffer is known statically) fails with an abort rather than results in possibly bad stuff happening < 1255819202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stuff like that < 1255819207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a number of standard functions < 1255819236 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, that's not C99-compliant, then. < 1255819244 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Obviously. < 1255819254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, depends on if it is =1 or =2 iirc < 1255819265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it only does build time checks at =1 level iirc < 1255819267 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, then it disables it just to be safe. < 1255819276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1255819291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gcc -dumpspecs < 1255819292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw < 1255819308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :
ACTION waits for ehird's reaction, guessing he never tried it before
< 1255819319 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :O_O < 1255819326 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ow ow ow MY SPLEEN < 1255819334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's so ugly it hurts my spleen < 1255819343 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here, have a mojo filter < 1255819350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My eyes just went into override mode and ignored it entirely < 1255819352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But my spleen, oh god < 1255819356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it defines defaults for flags and parameters iirc < 1255819357 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My spleen cannot help but see < 1255819359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and how some of them are handled < 1255819375 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though I'm not actually 100% sure if it does something else too < 1255819386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%{mno-intel-syntax:-masm=att %n`-mno-intel-syntax' is deprecated. Use `-masm=att' instead. < 1255819386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1255819396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems to indicate it can also warn about deprecated flags < 1255819397 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1255819399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and < 1255819404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :%{!mtune=*:%