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00:21:51 <ehird> "In this climate I think it's very feasible for a company to be profitable and compete with MSFT in the OS market. Just release a Linux distro that customers subscribe to, so that the thing updates with cool options for everything that people do on computers. Wage war against fuckwads that wanna get-rich-quick, and keep it simple. No advertising. No DRM. No retards thinking they want to control society by forcing regulatory bullshit on computers that fuck t
00:21:52 <ehird> and cause everything to slow down.
00:21:52 <ehird> Make it open-concept, and easier to mod than Linux is.
00:21:52 <ehird> Fucking goldmine that would be if Reddit liked it. The world would follow."
00:21:53 <ehird> I like the logic there
00:22:03 <ehird> "Linux is unpopular because it isn't configurable and open-ended enough"
00:23:43 <Sgeo> When Linux can run ALL my Windows games easily, I'll switch back
00:25:08 <ehird> I cried at both of those lines* for different reasons.
00:25:12 <ehird> * no crying actually took place
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01:03:50 <pikhq> "Linux is unpopular because it isn't configurable and open-ended enough" ... It's certainly possible to make something more configurable, but... Linux not configurable in comparison with Windows? Ha!
01:25:56 <Ilari> To see its not configurable, look at configuration dialog of compiz or any related WM... :-)
01:26:07 <Ilari> Preferably with lots of plugins installed...
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02:07:07 <madbr> This is the craziest thing ever http://www.colorforth.com/S40.htm
02:18:54 * coppro wants to start writing programs for LLVM
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05:41:55 * pikhq shudders, vomits, and shudders some more...
05:42:03 <pikhq> In C++, new and delete... Are operators.
05:42:08 <pikhq> YOU CAN OVERLOAD NEW AND DELETE.
05:42:53 <coppro> more specifically, you can overload the underlying memory allocation/deallocatoin
05:43:40 <pikhq> That's actually somewhat useful.
05:43:56 <pikhq> But YOU CAN OVERLOAD NEW AND DELETE THEMSELVES. ON A PER-OBJECT BASIS.
05:44:08 <coppro> the actual construction/destruction of objects remains a magic part of the expression
05:44:09 * pikhq gouges out his eyes, so as to not see the horror any more
05:44:21 <coppro> pikhq: sure. Make a specific type always retrieve its memory in a given manner
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06:04:32 <coppro> pikhq: they're fixing that one :)
06:04:51 <pikhq> KILL IT WITH FIRE. KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!
06:05:19 <coppro> do you want me to explain the reason (it's pretty bad... as I said, they are fixing it, thank goodness)
06:06:08 <pikhq> That alone is reason enough to ELIMINATE EVERYONE WHO EVER DESIGNED THE LANGUAGE FROM THE GENE POOL.
06:07:01 <coppro> hmm... I've commented on the design of the fixed version. That doesn't count, right?
06:07:02 <madbr> operator void* ? ???
06:07:12 <coppro> madbr: it's a C++ conversion operator
06:07:29 <pikhq> madbr: Yes, really.
06:07:29 <coppro> it's used to provide a boolean conversion that doesn't implicitly convert to int
06:07:50 <coppro> because when they decided to add conversion operators, they didn't think to add the 'explicit' keyword for them like they did for converting constructors
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07:03:58 <madbr> how is oerjan pronounced
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08:21:02 <oerjan> 23:03:58 <madbr> how is oerjan pronounced
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08:21:10 <oerjan> well you'll never know _now_
08:21:34 <oerjan> also, http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/09.10.06
08:22:40 <oerjan> also, how the heck can that have been nearly two weeks ago
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10:35:27 <MizardX> What does the "$" operator do in Haskell?
10:35:45 <oklopol> it opens a (, but the ) is implicit
10:35:54 <oklopol> and at the end of the line
10:39:22 <fizzie> Alternatively, f $ x = f x, but the trick (if you can call it that) is in the precedence.
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12:57:54 <ehird> 123qw4e555t67gu89i932qw4e55t67
12:59:59 <ehird> 23:03:58 <madbr> how is oerjan pronounced
13:00:00 <ehird> what oerjan said, but basically "yohan". sort of
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14:09:04 <Deewiant> Is it actually "Oerjan" or "Ørjan"
14:09:39 <oklopol> assuming that's the empty set they use in norway
14:14:53 <oklopol> i guess it's "sort of" yohan though.
14:16:06 <oklopol> if "yerhan" is pronounced like "gran", then actually oerjan is sort of that, if you move the "j" sounds to the second syllable
14:18:03 <Deewiant> It's something like /jəʊhan/ vs /øːɾjan/
14:18:18 <ehird> well, i couldn't think of a good way to articulate it, i can't even pronounce it properly
14:18:32 <Deewiant> oklopol: Because, see, "yerhan" isn't pronounced at all like "göran". :-P
14:18:49 <Deewiant> Or at least, I'm finding it difficult to imagine anybody who would pronounce it like "göran".
14:20:20 <ehird> 90KiB/s with 3G internet, woop woop
14:22:06 <ehird> Admittedly by the time it's downloaded I won't need it
14:22:38 <oklopol> Deewiant: i can't see those characters correctly
14:22:52 <ehird> set your client to utf-8
14:22:55 <oklopol> i can imagine someone could leave the "h" out
14:22:56 <ehird> you're not sending as utf-8 either
14:22:58 <oklopol> ehird: already is, just doesn't work
14:23:16 <ehird> [14:16] oklopol: if "yerhan" is pronounced like "göran", then actually oerjan is sort of that, if you move the "j" sounds to the second syllable (incompatible encoding)
14:23:21 <ehird> so is your utf-8 setting "not utf-8" :D
14:23:26 <ehird> that's some terrible client
14:23:30 <Deewiant> oklopol: Try the logs in your web browser, maybe it handles the fonts better.
14:23:37 <ehird> Deewiant: the logs corrupt utf-8
14:23:48 <ehird> Yeah, they send no encoding header
14:23:53 <ehird> Or the wrong one, at least
14:24:02 <oklopol> seems it's gone back to "Default", changed to "Display and encode", but at least the ones on the screen are still wrong
14:24:08 <Deewiant> Erm, sending no encoding header != corrupting
14:24:09 <ehird> Checked, they don't send an encoding header
14:24:11 <ehird> Doesn't work for me
14:24:16 <oklopol> i imagine they'd have changed if it worked.
14:24:21 <ehird> Deewiant: Well, having to guess == it's gonna break for a bunch of people
14:24:23 <Deewiant> Set the encoding manually in your browser, and it works.
14:24:27 <ehird> For instance, Safari users
14:24:32 <Deewiant> Firefox autodetects as UTF-8, evidently.
14:24:41 <ehird> Deewiant: Yeah, I don't think you can even set it manually with Safari :-)
14:24:49 <ehird> But the logs are the only time it ever guesses wrong for me.
14:25:01 <ehird> View → Text Encoding
14:25:19 <oklopol> at least now i see my it wrong myself too
14:25:37 <ehird> Best sentence ever
14:25:52 <ehird> Has anyone ever been far as decided want to do look more like? At least now I see my it wrong myself too.
14:26:02 <oklopol> nothing wrong with "my it"
14:26:27 <oklopol> although admittedly it was a typo
14:26:28 <ehird> well i suppose not, it is terribly ambiguous though :D
14:26:46 <oklopol> i didn't just say "it", which could refer to anything
14:26:55 <oklopol> i said *my it*, so you know exactly what i'm referring to
14:27:07 <oklopol> you know i mean my own ö's
14:27:10 <ehird> well it's anything that's yours
14:27:23 <ehird> also, I'd know you meant that if you said just "it" too
14:27:34 <oklopol> so still not completely unambiguous, just more unambiguous,.
14:27:52 <ehird> i never said completely, just terribly
14:28:13 <oklopol> your that was a stupid thing to say
14:28:42 <ehird> Your that's like my it. Stupider, though.
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14:29:45 <oklopol> SHUT UP YOU'RE YOUNGER THAN ME
14:29:55 <ehird> *YOUR IT'S YOUNGER
14:30:05 <ehird> "It" referring to my existence
14:30:58 <ehird> So's this sentence's it (which is your it (which is your mom's it)).
14:32:48 <ehird> *Your it and its silly brain's that
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14:55:41 <oerjan> <ehird> what oerjan said, but basically "yohan". sort of <-- sheesh. try that for the start of my last name, instead.
14:55:53 <ehird> i admitted it was a bad transcription
14:56:02 <ehird> of my failed pronunciation
14:59:02 <oerjan> <Deewiant> It's something like *unicode ipa containing a long vowel mark* <-- erm, no long vowel there
15:00:46 <oerjan> otherwise, i think that was correct
15:05:52 <ehird> http://twitter.com/zombocom
15:11:00 <oerjan> <ehird> Deewiant: the logs corrupt utf-8
15:11:23 <oerjan> i sometimes have to change encoding, but only occasionally when IE guesses wrongly
15:11:51 <ehird> i note how people never accuse you of not reading ahead before replying to the logs :)
15:12:14 <oerjan> it has happened i think...
15:13:18 <oerjan> or possibly i just accused myself.
15:13:27 <ehird> i get it a lot more, though
15:13:49 <oerjan> well you comment on the logs a lot more
15:14:57 <oerjan> <ehird> But the logs are the only time it ever guesses wrong for me.
15:15:43 <oerjan> i think that is because unicode is fairly rare, so it may not be used in the part the browser uses to guess. also there are those like oklopol who send another encoding
15:16:08 <ehird> I think it guesses with the whole page, not sure though
15:16:15 <ehird> of course the issue is twofoldl:
15:16:25 <ehird> (a) the log is valid in the coding is incorrectly guesses, and
15:16:27 <oerjan> as opposed to twofoldr
15:16:40 <ehird> (b) generally people who use utf-8 aren't incompetent idiots and send the header; so, it prefers the other encodings when guessing, I'd assume
15:16:50 <ehird> for instance the common Windows encoding is likely what it autodetects as
15:17:04 <ehird> the issue being that the header isn't under our control when we use utf-8, so yeah.
15:25:50 <AnMaster> oerjan, didn't notice you join
15:44:53 <ehird> oerjan: AnMaster: iwc!
15:44:56 <ehird> haha beat you both.
15:49:18 <ehird> what on earth is that face
15:49:52 <oerjan> just some eyes on the verge of rolling away
15:52:02 <ehird> http://old.imgur.com/xEPyn.png
15:52:04 <ehird> THIS IS WHAT YOU DO TO PEOPLE, OERJAN
15:52:11 <ehird> well okay admittedly you use IE 8, not 6
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15:52:30 <asiekierka> I need to implement Wireworld this time
15:52:51 <ehird> Bye-bye asiekierka
15:53:12 -!- asiekierka has set topic: the world ends: <ehird> Bye-bye asiekierka | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | This is about esoteric programming languages..
15:53:23 <oerjan> asiekierka: did you find out that thing about game of life?
15:53:33 <ehird> Yay, I get to change the topic again. Bye asiekierka
15:53:48 <asiekierka> and as it's for a server written in Perl of all languages
15:54:07 -!- ehird has set topic: the world ends: ais523 has been thinking about Feather | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
15:54:11 <ehird> I don't recall the original topic, eh
15:54:11 <oerjan> asiekierka: in any case, for any two-dimensional CA you should be able to use the trick of only using a line (or maybe thin strip) of extra memory
15:54:30 <oerjan> should apply to wireworld as well
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15:55:16 <oklopol> "thin strip of extra memory" sounds interesting
15:56:01 <oerjan> oklopol: to change the field to the next generation, you only need to keep a little bit of duplication if you change one line at a time
15:56:02 <oklopol> not as interesting as the fact that inherent ambiguity of a context-free language is an undecidable property, but quite interesting still
15:57:08 <ehird> "Help me!" "Do this." "I'm too lazy; I'll do this other thing."
15:57:09 <oerjan> asiekierka: erm it's not exactly hard
15:57:11 <oklopol> oerjan: what if you look two lines behind?
15:57:23 <oerjan> oklopol: then you would need a trip with two lines...
15:58:02 <oerjan> oh. for 3d you would need a plane, obviously
15:58:07 <oklopol> oerjan: right you need one whole line of extra memory for one line look back
15:58:16 <oklopol> i thought you might get away with finite extra mem
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15:59:43 <oklopol> actually i think you still do, just always remember the relevant square from last round
16:00:26 <oklopol> err nah, you can't move it
16:01:02 <oklopol> okay, so i guess you do need O(n^(d-1)) memory
16:01:23 <oklopol> for d-dimensional, n*n*...*n
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16:10:16 <asiekierka> - i check the old block type (pre-processing)
16:10:49 <asiekierka> - if 1 "turn" has passed, turn self to wire
16:15:40 <asiekierka> Good news: It now looks like WireWorld
16:15:40 <asiekierka> Bad news: wire turns itself to tail for no reason
16:49:54 <asiekierka> did you do it without duplicate maps ONCE :D
16:54:32 <oklopol> i doubt i even ever wrote an intermediate version that manipulates it as a general CA, i had a linked list of electrons iirc
16:55:10 <oklopol> manipulates as a general CA meaning just having the bitmap and going pixel by pixel, checking what's wire and what's tail and so on
16:56:01 <oklopol> anyway, any decent programming language would let you express the algo with two maps, and compile it to code that just uses one.
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17:03:04 <oklopol> decent programming language? are you joking
17:05:54 <fax> "decent programming language" "hahahahaha"
17:07:24 <oklopol> hey fax you're on math, are you the guy who couldn't understand why e1 = e1*e2 = e2 proves identity elements are unique
17:07:35 <oklopol> and actually i just realized that was F
17:07:48 <oklopol> f is a hard character to remember
17:08:06 <fax> it's because inverses exist
17:08:31 <oerjan> actually it's true without inverses
17:08:47 <oklopol> yeah where did i use inverses
17:09:20 <oklopol> i used a = ae = ea for any identity e, and element a
17:09:47 <fax> h I was thinking of: given any x and a, x*a = a, then x is equal to the identity
17:09:50 <oerjan> it holds for monoids in general.
17:09:55 <oklopol> anyway there was like an hour long debate about that
17:10:37 <oerjan> if you have a semi-group with only one-sided inverses it's a bit more complicated iirc
17:10:47 <oklopol> fax: you mean if you can find any such a and x that xa = a, then x is the identity?
17:11:12 <oklopol> oerjan: then they're unique only if they are both inversesat the same time
17:11:20 <oklopol> but you know nothing about inverses that are just one kind
17:11:33 <oerjan> oklopol: um what are you commenting there
17:11:42 <oklopol> oerjan: if you have a semi-group with only one-sided inverses it's a bit more complicated iirc
17:12:15 <oklopol> then i'll just believe you there
17:12:38 <oerjan> if you have a left and a right identity, then they must be equal.
17:12:56 <oerjan> but you could have several of one kind as long as you have none of the other
17:13:15 <oklopol> you mean if there is such an element e that ea = a for all a, and some f such that af = a for all a
17:14:08 <oklopol> i was a bit hasty there, let's see
17:14:11 <fax> whats the best group
17:14:24 <oklopol> ea = a, so ef = f, af = a, so ef = e
17:14:34 <oklopol> that's a clear proof at least, right
17:14:38 <oerjan> not that i actually know much about it
17:16:18 <oerjan> yep i didn't say it was hard
17:16:37 <oklopol> but you did say "o?", i just wanted to make it clear
17:16:52 <oerjan> that was o? for the qod
17:17:25 <oklopol> i don't see my all of my typos nowadays.
17:17:34 <oerjan> LINGVA LATINA CORRECTA NECESSE EST
17:17:38 <oklopol> maybe i'm becoming a human :\
17:18:16 <fax> anyway what else is cool than gourps
17:18:58 <oklopol> fax: we aren't doing groups, just sets with rules.
17:19:31 <oerjan> universal algebra, that would be
17:19:44 <Deewiant> oerjan: "correcta" should be "correctus"
17:19:47 <oklopol> anyway say you have {e, f}, both left identities, ef = f, fe = e, ee = e, ff = f, no contradictions there
17:19:59 <oerjan> Deewiant: huh? isn't lingva feminine?
17:20:30 <fax> when you write {e, f} does that state that e and f are different?
17:20:57 <oerjan> otherwise, it should be latinus as well...
17:21:00 <fax> oklopol do you have associativity?
17:21:17 <oklopol> fax: seems that one has it, yes
17:21:45 <oerjan> and it definitely is latina
17:21:52 <oklopol> but no one said you can have two left identities if you have associativity, just that you can have two left identities :)
17:22:29 <oerjan> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lingua#Latin
17:22:32 <oklopol> even if he'd been wrong, it would've just been a joke, you know, complaining about grammar with a grammatic error.
17:22:53 <oklopol> fax: yes, a set can only contain an element once
17:23:11 <oerjan> Deewiant: perhaps it's the double adjective. it's not like i know idiomatic latin...
17:23:26 <Deewiant> Yeah, I was wondering about that myself.
17:23:28 <oklopol> you read a grammar ~20 years ago
17:25:51 <oklopol> fax: but umm automata are cool
17:26:23 <fax> isn't that group theory again?
17:27:08 <oklopol> well no not really, languages are a big part of it, but usually we just have subsets of the free monoid
17:27:13 <Deewiant> FWIW "correctus" is the perfect passive participle of "corrigere", not an adjective
17:27:28 <oerjan> participles are adjectives afaik
17:27:49 <Deewiant> No, not really, but they work pretty much like them. :-P
17:28:03 <Deewiant> It declines the same way and all so it's still "correcta".
17:28:23 <oklopol> fax: languages are when you have an alphabet (generators), and you take subsets of alphabet* (all possible strings of characters)
17:28:35 <oklopol> alphabet* is the free monoid
17:28:52 <oklopol> when concatenation is the operation (obviously)
17:29:21 <oklopol> but at least the stuff i've done is quite far from group theory
17:29:54 <oklopol> the point is you have automata and you take words, stuff them in those machines and see what happens
17:29:54 <oerjan> you don't usually have inverses with languages
17:30:34 <oklopol> semigroup is when you drop empty word
17:30:54 <oklopol> i remember because "semigroup" is so ridiculously much less than half of what a group is
17:32:04 <fax> what about the machines?
17:32:19 <oklopol> oerjan: anyway there has been research on automata over semirings
17:32:21 <oerjan> i for one welcome our new machine overlords
17:32:23 <oklopol> basically having the inverses
17:33:00 <oklopol> no idea what that actually entails, our course didn't actually talk about them
17:33:07 <oklopol> and i don't have much time for further research
17:33:22 <oklopol> fax: depends on the machine.
17:33:34 <oklopol> usually they have some sorta rules that govern what they do with given input
17:34:58 <oklopol> i wish our courses put more emphasis on all kinds of obscure shit
17:36:35 <oklopol> anyway i finished reading for one of my exams for tomorrow, should probably start working on the next one
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18:18:45 <oklopol> it's funny because asciikierka has no idea whether it's true
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18:32:04 <fax> asiekierka hello
18:33:47 <fax> what was it
18:34:45 <asiekierka> but here in poland we say that the exception proves the rule
18:35:46 <asiekierka> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Silly_Emplosions - i'm so implementing this esolang
18:36:02 <asiekierka> Actually it would be fun to implement an esolang on VHS tape
18:37:56 <fax> that coulb be cool
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18:59:54 <Gregor> # Array indices start at 0.5 (as a compromise between starting with 0 and starting with 1) // lawl
19:05:22 <oklopol> as if it wasn't obvious without the explanation
19:05:38 <oklopol> oh is that from asciikierka's?
19:06:51 <Sgeo> I remember reading some book on programming where the author claimed to suggest 0.5
19:07:54 <Sgeo> ooh, x = x is useful!
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19:26:51 <fax> unlet x \= x outide x
19:30:23 <oerjan> sublet x through x == x
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20:36:42 <ehird> (The p is the punctuation)
20:37:03 <ehird> having sex with a walrus
20:37:13 <oklopol> i thought we were listing pronouns
20:37:15 <ehird> um, disregard that!
20:37:52 <oerjan> certainly not, that walrus is a dangerous predator!
20:40:44 <oklopol> why don't you take a seat.
20:41:51 * oerjan watches as the chair collapses under the walrus
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20:50:31 <ehird> (I believe the original Japanese says "black")
20:50:40 <ehird> Thanks, Google Translate!
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21:51:56 <zzo38> You idiot! You've given yourself a magical hangover
21:59:04 <zzo38> I have read the document pointed by the previous log, about 40C18, although it is weird, it seems a bit interesting.
22:03:11 <zzo38> Context is: 09.10.17 18:07:07 <madbr>
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22:04:18 <AnMaster> "] closes an (, } closes [ and ) closes {. Strings start with ' and end with ", or they can start with " and end with ' for the interpreter to automatically convert them to leet."
22:04:42 <AnMaster> ( and ] matching looks like intervals
22:05:05 <zzo38> Ya. Some of these ideas of "Silly Emplosions" are I wrote myself, and some are take from others ideas
22:05:24 <ehird> Silly Emplosions is, well... silly.
22:06:05 <zzo38> Yes, that is what is supposed to be, obviously!
22:07:22 <ehird> All of them are doable, but "Large arrays are stored on VHS tapes." would be very, very hard to implement, and "Every variable should be immediately deallocated once the data stored in said variable has been read once." would make variables almost useless. "Any "if" statement requires at least 14,000 subconditions." would just make people generate code to avoid horrible verbosity.
22:08:54 <ehird> And the stylus one is rather meaningless.
22:08:57 <zzo38> Just because if statements requires 14000 subconditions, does not necessarily mean they have to be given explicitly, I guess. You could have syntax to make it automatically, like, with preprocessor macros or something.
22:09:08 <zzo38> Yes I know the stylus one is meaningless
22:09:26 <ehird> (Oh, and having to compile yourself would be difficult to the max; I'd just end up calling the compiler, probably)
22:09:33 <ehird> (Assuming it can call other programs.)
22:09:58 <zzo38> VHS tapes would be very hard to implemented it with that, but you could build a VHS emulator too, I guess.
22:10:14 <zzo38> These ideas are just random ideas from various people (including myself)
22:12:39 <zzo38> My brother told me about when he went to someone's house to play D&D, the DM was very bad at it. He didn't know the rules for the game and said things which were wrong, the campaign consisted almost completely of one fighting after the previous, and kept putting invisible magical barriers everywhere when a player tried to do something that wasn't in the campaign setting (which he wrote himself)
22:13:46 <zzo38> Is "asiekierka" the same guy as on MegaZeux? Is "madbrain"?
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22:45:10 <ehird> Asie does that sort of stuff, I believe.
22:45:17 <ehird> Madbrain is a rather common-seeming nick, though.
22:45:44 <Sgeo> "Sgeo" is surprisingly not rare
22:46:23 <Sgeo> Not me: http://twitter.com/sgeo
22:46:29 <Sgeo> Also not me: http://sgeo.deviantart.com/
22:49:44 <ehird> I'm the only ehird on the internet, which is both a curse and a blessing.
22:50:38 <Sgeo> How is it a curse?
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22:55:46 <ehird> Sgeo: because I, like anyone else who hasn't entered a state of stasis, consider my past self a complete idiot
22:55:53 <ehird> and the interwebs never forget
22:56:34 <Sgeo> I'd say that most of my past self idiocy was real-world
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