00:00:02 FireFly[DS], can you type åäöÅÄÖ? 00:00:02 * FireFly refuses to pluralise smiley correctly 00:00:02 Um 00:00:02 åäö 00:00:03 ah 00:00:07 é ? 00:00:13 idé 00:00:18 Though with a ugly hack 00:00:21 Nope 00:00:23 FireFly[DS], what hack? 00:00:26 Well 00:00:39 I defined å, ä and ö as "macro" thingies 00:00:40 heh 00:00:42 So I can insert them with alt-1, alt-2 and alt-3 00:01:14 FireFly[DS], Look there → ← In between those arrows. (See them on the DS?) 00:01:20 The client supports DCC, logging, and some other awesome stuff 00:01:36 <01:00:26> FireFly[DS], Look there → ← In between those arrows. (See them on the DS?) 00:01:39 FireFly, so does my bouyncer 00:01:40 That line showed up as 00:01:46 Um 00:01:52 FireFly, as correctly? 00:01:53 As åt' and åth 00:01:59 eh 00:02:00 Though a stranger h 00:02:03 So, not correctly :P 00:02:03 FireFly, unicode fail 00:02:10 badly 00:02:14 Meh, it fails at ASCII åäö too :P 00:02:19 FireFly, oh? 00:02:19 -!- boily has quit ("leaving"). 00:02:26 and those are not ASCII 00:02:30 those are ISO-something 00:02:37 Meh, whatever 00:02:44 ASCIIish 00:02:52 unibyte encoding yes 00:03:15 Anyway, the DSOrganize client I used before can handle åäö correctly 00:03:20 Unicode åäö, that is 00:03:26 nice 00:03:27 And also input them 00:03:36 due to being able to set up your own charmap manually in config files 00:03:48 So I altered it to wannabe-svorak (had to change some stuff for it to fit) 00:03:59 okt 14 00:04:58 ⎧ n + 1 if m = 0 00:03:59 okt 14 00:04:58 A(m,n) = ⎨ A(m - 1, 1) if m > 0 and n = 0 00:03:59 okt 14 00:04:58 ⎩ A(m - 1, A(m, n - 1)) if m > 0 and n > 0 00:04:05 FireFly, how does that show up there 00:04:12 * AnMaster bets: horrible 00:04:17 fail 00:04:19 Well, quite horrible, yeah 00:04:25 FireFly, and does it show up well on your normal computer? 00:04:30 fax, fail how? 00:04:38 line spacing is too big 00:04:42 gaps 00:05:37 fax, not here 00:05:39 http://omploader.org/vMmtzYw 00:05:43 haha 00:05:49 (old reference rendering) 00:06:05 Oranjer, what is "haha" about? 00:06:14 I don't know 00:06:17 "fax, not here" 00:06:20 he's laughing at your attempt to render equations 00:06:28 :O 00:06:40 fax, no, at your failure to handle the perfectly fine unicode :P 00:06:41 ah 00:06:57 the link looks hell of different from what I saw 00:07:12 yay piecewise 00:07:24 Oranjer, then your font fails, your unicode support fails, or you aren't using monospaced font (even more fail) 00:07:37 :OOOOOOO 00:07:37 :OOOOOOO 00:07:47 I am PUZZLED by this turn of events 00:07:57 Oranjer, you are always anyway 00:08:01 so it doesn't seem to matter 00:08:11 (or make a difference) 00:08:27 -!- lament has joined. 00:08:33 should i unban ehird? 00:09:16 lament, your choice 00:09:45 the problem is 00:09:50 lament, hm? 00:09:52 if i don't do it, i'll forget about it 00:09:55 I suppose there's no easy way to search for something that matches a regex in SQL? 00:09:58 and then i'll never do it 00:10:25 lament, what about if and only if this renders like in the reference drawing (url in a few seconds): 00:10:28 okt 14 00:04:58 ⎧ n + 1 if m = 0 00:10:28 okt 14 00:04:58 A(m,n) = ⎨ A(m - 1, 1) if m > 0 and n = 0 00:10:28 okt 14 00:04:58 ⎩ A(m - 1, A(m, n - 1)) if m > 0 and n > 0 00:10:31 http://omploader.org/vMmtzYw 00:10:36 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o lament. 00:10:38 AnMaster: it doesnt 00:10:48 lament, ah. Unicode issues? 00:10:50 yeha 00:10:59 i'm using putty 00:11:07 lament, I would say "FAIL" but what if your +o, I don't 00:11:08 :P 00:11:12 -!- lament has set channel mode: -b *!*n=ehird@212.183.134.*. 00:11:22 what are all those other entries in the ban list? 00:11:41 lament, the ones you forgot? 00:11:47 nah, just kidding 00:11:47 i guess 00:11:52 :P 00:11:55 lament, I think some were trolls 00:11:56 at least 00:12:39 lament, not sure I would say "all those" 00:12:48 just 6 00:17:41 -!- ehird has joined. 00:18:47 ehird, wb 00:18:48 night 00:19:07 only the second time you've said night today. 00:19:25 ehird, well yeah. But I didn't use an arrow yet did I ? 00:19:42 (on the same line that is) 00:20:00 now however: 00:20:01 ↫ night 00:23:45 There are other friendly front-ends to Linux, including the K Desktop Environment (KDE), but Gnome is quickly becoming the GUI of choice to run on top of Linux. 00:23:45 "I don't think KDE has a future at this point, it's not completely free yet and it's bound to a single programming language in Unix. Gnome from the very beginning has been accessible through any language. We are providing the GUI for all the languages and programmers can choose the language they like the most," says Miguel. 00:23:54 1999 00:24:01 Hey, it's an Ackermann function. 00:25:08 Which I say to imply that the thing I wrote on a random whiteboard was also an Ackermann function. 00:25:31 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:26:27 What I wrote was A(0,n) = n+1, A(m,0) = A(m-1,m) for m > 0, A(m,n) = A(m-1,A(m,n-1)) for m, n > 0, or something like that. 00:35:20 "If you really must, pirate, feel guilty and don't lie to yourself." // boy, having sound economic arguments against copyright sure does help me sleep easy 00:35:41 not 00:57:29 what 00:58:22 heylo ehird 00:58:31 Olyeh 00:58:40 Ole! 00:58:50 imagine there is an accent on the e 00:59:08 -!- FireFly[DS] has quit ("ClIRC - IRC client for Nintendo DS"). 00:59:31 :O 00:59:43 why...why does everyone in my life leave me? 00:59:52 >:( why ) 01:03:00 try using a zinc toothpaste 01:03:21 no thanks, I do not know the effect zinc would have on my dentata 01:03:57 lol 01:04:08 okay 01:04:29 vagina dentata? 01:04:47 my how opulent we are today 01:04:49 :O 01:05:04 lament: my first thought :/ 01:05:05 sp3 download so slow ;__; 01:05:08 my...my gods, do those with vagina dentata brush their teeth? 01:05:12 so slow that I use two underscores ;__; 01:05:13 :O 01:05:26 "Have to go brush my vagina now." 01:05:51 Oranjer: you mean, both sets? i think using two different toothbrushes might be in order 01:06:05 yes, certainly, oerjan 01:06:18 also, ehird, I hate it when she uses that excuse 01:06:21 oy! 01:07:13 anyways 01:07:41 what now, peeps? 01:08:23 well if you must peep i can't stop you 01:08:40 peeps behave yourself? 01:09:00 never! 01:09:28 you'd best, or ah'll have to ask me peeps for the whip! 01:09:33 gah so SLOW 01:09:43 sorry, ehird 01:09:52 no i mean this sp3 download 01:09:54 it's almost as if they're designed against that 01:09:56 ohhhhhh 01:13:09 -!- immibis has joined. 01:20:03 is it even downloading at all, I don't think so 01:51:40 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host)). 02:00:51 NOOOOOOOOOOOOO 02:07:07 ? 02:07:17 nothing much, why? 02:16:30 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 02:16:48 how come oranjer always leaves before i show yp? 02:16:50 :| 02:25:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 02:41:23 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 03:31:49 http://www.idefex.net/b3takhan/graphs/ffffffffffffu*.png 03:33:54 Somebody's ripping off Ryan North :P 03:35:26 ehird, there needs to be a 3 dimensional graph, for number of f's and number of u's 03:35:33 cba 03:35:38 Gregor: The Kha*n thing predates that 03:35:44 and so does that graph generator 03:35:51 RYAN NORTH IS AN IMITATOR 03:35:59 Womp womp 03:36:16 it would be fun to have a 3d graph though 03:36:22 if i wasn't lazy i'd do it in mathematica 03:36:49 Fine. 03:36:51 Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me, princess! 03:44:49 A spiralling staircase of uncut grass! 03:49:15 http://stali.suckless.org/ has made me want to play around with compiling linux kernels 04:15:16 -!- Gracenotes_ has joined. 04:17:22 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Nick collision from services.). 04:17:24 -!- Gracenotes_ has changed nick to Gracenotes. 04:17:42 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 04:59:18 -!- augur has quit ("Leaving..."). 04:59:53 -!- Oranjer has joined. 05:01:15 :O 05:01:30 anyone here? 05:08:25 fungot, tell me the news 05:08:26 Oranjer: so with all this in mind, please look at the very beginning of the article. we don't have an article about settlements, fnord or fnord. 05:08:33 :O 05:08:35 holy shit 05:10:19 * Sgeo starts worshiping the shit 05:10:34 holy Oranjer 05:11:24 *bows* 05:11:58 yay me 05:12:03 holy Sgeo 05:17:15 -!- augur has joined. 05:18:09 oh no augur oh shit oh shit 05:18:21 oh hey you 05:18:27 :O 05:18:34 tell me more of your silly ideas 05:18:38 heh 05:18:49 that's my second best pick-up line, actually 05:18:58 what? 05:19:01 are you hitting on me? 05:19:03 :| 05:19:06 what, no 05:19:06 haha 05:19:10 :| 05:19:14 are you a sexy gay boy? 05:19:21 :( what ) 05:19:27 its a simple question! 05:19:33 are you sexy, gay, and a boy 05:19:42 nope! 05:19:48 (I'm scared...) 05:19:51 (:O) 05:20:00 well stop hitting on me then! :| 05:20:06 ahhh 05:20:10 I didn't ahhh 05:20:19 you linguists read to much into things ahhhh 05:20:20 haha 05:20:47 no 05:20:59 its more that ive been on a kick lately fucking with people like that 05:21:06 poor kids in in proggit 05:21:08 uh okay uhhh 05:21:15 no idea what that means but okay 05:21:23 KNEE WAYS 05:21:50 my silly ideas! yay! 05:21:57 oh! 05:22:20 I should probably ask you, as I have heard it is a sorta-controversial thing amongst linguists 05:22:40 oh no controversy! :O 05:22:43 what is your stance on the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis? 05:22:46 :O 05:23:09 the extent to which it "exists" is boringly uninteresting. 05:23:48 wait, the controversy, or the phenomena described by the Hypothesis? 05:27:20 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 05:27:40 augur 05:27:44 what did you say 05:27:46 I missed it 05:28:05 the S-W hypothesis. 05:28:18 the extent to which it exists is boring. 05:28:27 oh, okay 05:28:31 yaaaaaaaay! 05:28:56 what. 05:29:25 yaaaaay new silly ideas 05:29:31 "bisociation"!!!! 05:30:26 :O 05:32:12 AIUsdhasiufhdiuhsiguhsdfg 05:32:14 You're talking! 05:32:19 augur ehird what 05:32:22 hello ehird 05:32:28 ugh, about the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis 05:32:31 yes 05:32:34 its a stupid hypothesis. 05:32:38 almost entirely debunked 05:32:39 hence why were not talking about it anymore. 05:32:41 no, we have moved on 05:32:44 and what little remains is entirely unfun! 05:32:45 exactly 05:32:45 oh good 05:32:47 move on some more 05:32:49 :P 05:32:56 uh-oh 05:33:04 sapir-whorf is kinda like one of those things i sorta wish was true 05:33:07 I have moved on to Sociology! :O 05:33:16 so im watching Moon 05:33:17 also quantum tunneling for FTL transmission 05:33:17 and like 05:33:30 yeah, augur? 05:33:34 i love the name of that movie 05:33:35 "moon" 05:33:39 it has completely monopolised 05:33:41 (I was just thinking of that word) 05:33:44 that name 05:33:45 they're doing the whole "space mission so we have to send recorded videos and blah blah blah so far away no communication oh no isolation D:" 05:33:46 and removed it from the pool 05:33:50 of all future moon-related movies 05:33:56 and it does this JUST BECAUSE IT CAN 05:33:57 "moon" 05:33:59 Moonshot 05:34:03 "THE moon" 05:34:03 translation to all lunar-related movie makers: 05:34:04 "FUCK YOU" 05:34:12 "The SkyRock" 05:34:18 the problem with this little scenario is 05:34:20 "Nightstar... wait" 05:34:27 the moon is only 2 seconds away by radio 05:34:29 "That thing in space that SURROUNDS us" 05:34:33 augur: A movie? 05:34:34 wait 05:34:36 yes 05:34:36 UNREALISTIC? 05:34:37 they aren't using radio, augur 05:34:40 h o l y 05:34:41 s h i t 05:34:44 they're using smoke signals 05:34:45 STOP 05:34:46 THE 05:34:47 PRESSeS 05:34:48 IN SPACE 05:34:49 :P 05:34:50 WITH A CAPITAL E 05:34:51 its just like 05:34:54 cmon man 05:35:00 it takes five seconds to look this kind of thing up 05:35:02 we know, augur 05:35:05 augur: would you prefer they called it 05:35:13 Andromeda 33C-01/22348576-4 05:35:16 you couldve at least put the base around jupiter or saturn or something 05:35:18 wait--how do we know it's our moon? can he see earth from that? 05:35:18 moon 74 05:35:19 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 05:35:29 because that way it would take time for the messages to travel to earth 05:35:35 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 05:35:36 yes, we can 05:35:39 its THE moon. 05:35:40 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer. 05:35:41 the moon is nicer than those places, though. 05:35:42 Luna. 05:35:47 it's all rocky and grey! 05:35:48 pfft 05:35:55 Saturn > ALL 05:35:56 :| 05:35:57 ...like an emo kid... 05:36:04 ...sort of 05:36:05 you're an emo kid. 05:36:10 no, i'm not :P 05:36:15 yes 05:36:18 emo ehird 05:36:22 yes you are 05:36:22 emohird 05:36:29 youve got long black hair 05:36:29 eemhird 05:36:29 augur: HOWSO 05:36:31 NO 05:36:33 it is dark brown 05:36:34 FUCK YOU 05:36:35 you look like you're gay but swear you're not 05:36:35 :P 05:36:38 ... 05:36:38 HAHA 05:36:39 no i don't? 05:36:57 now now, that is no way to talk to an emo herd! 05:37:02 and you complain all the time about people mistreating you because they just dont understand 05:37:06 they might cause a suicidal stampede! 05:37:09 *cut cut cut cut CUT CUT CUT CUT CUT CUT* 05:37:13 haha 05:37:14 CUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUTCUT 05:37:18 :O 05:37:23 IT'S COMING FOR YOU 05:37:34 *suddenly, My Chemical Romance plays* 05:37:35 cut 05:37:35 cut 05:37:35 cut 05:37:35 Cut 05:37:35 Cut 05:37:37 *everyone melts* 05:37:38 CUT 05:37:39 CUT 05:37:40 haha 05:37:40 *horror* 05:37:43 ew 05:37:44 CUT 05:37:48 have you seen galipokas little video with that at the end? 05:37:52 what, no? 05:38:03 with a cutting stampede? 05:38:11 well 05:38:14 cutting edge 05:38:14 amirite 05:38:15 with making fun of emo kids 05:38:21 making fun of emo kids? HOW NOVEL 05:38:51 at the end he plays a very brief clip with the "i think im emo" song, and a video of him sawing at his wrists with a pair of plastic safety scissors 05:39:17 damn 05:39:25 I want to see an emo kid use a saw 05:39:27 OR 05:39:51 an emo kid falls off a church roof, arms stretched out, and his wrists land on upturned saw blades 05:39:52 :O 05:40:05 no one witnesses this 05:40:42 an emo kid kills himself in the woods 05:40:46 does he make a sound? 05:41:13 yes, he screams 05:41:23 or, he cries 05:41:30 lame response 05:41:32 I have never been able to tell the difference 05:41:34 I DISCOVERED 05:41:35 HOW TO FLY 05:41:40 IT IS IN FACT THE SAME WAY AS YOU DIE. 05:41:42 YAY EHIRD EHIRD THE BIRD 05:41:50 decapitation? 05:41:51 YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY 05:42:04 no, spontaneous quantum existence failure 05:42:06 duh 05:42:13 you can't die from that! 05:42:23 yes you can, with enough luck 05:42:27 ha! 05:42:38 There's no luck in quantum mechanics! HA 05:42:40 oh wait 05:44:44 okay new subject 05:44:56 i like this rapid-fire subjectness 05:45:01 thoughts on: religion! 05:45:18 ha, this is gonna get one of us killed, I know it 05:45:45 bullshit, bunkum, designed to control the masses, unfalsifiable, god of the gaps is rapidly failing, yawn 05:45:53 okay new subject 05:45:55 okay, we got one opinion 05:46:00 WAIT WHERE IS AUGUR 05:46:05 watching Moon 05:46:05 WE MUST KNOW 05:46:08 dont you pay attention? 05:46:08 oh, sorry 05:46:10 ha 05:46:27 also, you suck at linguistics. 05:46:29 that is all. 05:46:31 I thought you were being metaphysical or whatever, like you were watching it in your head 05:46:33 :O 05:46:43 that's no way to talk to a stranger! 05:46:53 No one should be a cock to a stranger, *ever*. 05:48:07 oh i see i see 05:48:07 its not that they screwed up ehird 05:48:07 :o 05:48:07 what? 05:48:07 the satellite that normally would relay life communications is "down" 05:48:10 haha 05:48:12 okay 05:48:16 so, smoke signals! 05:48:42 hey, ehird 05:48:53 what are we gonna do about: childhood indoctrination? 05:48:55 :O 05:49:42 wait for the religious to die off. 05:50:01 or move to the uk 05:50:02 that can't happen--*they don't believe in birth control!* :O 05:50:12 eugenics! 05:50:14 :{ 05:50:16 *:P 05:50:19 *everyone* can't move to the uk 05:50:26 don't move to the UK— it's shit 05:50:43 also, eugenics would hardly fix childhood gullibility 05:50:46 :( 05:50:50 it'd stop the religious breeding :P 05:51:05 (well, with a sufficiently brutal program. of course the ethics of that could be debated, but MAD SCIENTIST TIME!) 05:51:13 FOR SCIENCE 05:51:17 also, no, that can't work 05:51:19 they outnumber us 05:51:27 and they control missiles and shit 05:51:37 well, I'm assuming you're in a position of authority 05:51:42 i.e. dictator 05:51:42 ha 05:51:49 assume I am a street urchin, of course 05:51:52 or at least with a similar-minded governmental body 05:51:56 assume you are you and I am I 05:52:06 how do we stop childhood indoctrination??? 05:52:07 Oranjer: serial killing, followed by suicide as the only way to fix your now permanently damaged psyche 05:52:10 have fun 05:52:13 hmmm 05:52:16 nope, won't work 05:52:24 o rly 05:52:31 I would be acting as an "atheist role model" 05:52:55 and it would just give the religious an excuse to shove GAAAWD down the kid's throats 05:53:02 even more than it is 05:53:33 also, ehird, I doubt you've actually thought this out--are you even trying anymore? or have you given up? 05:53:34 serial killing = every single religious person, naturally 05:53:51 ... 05:53:52 oh you want real solutions? 05:53:56 yep! 05:54:10 singularity! has some side-effects. may contain peanuts. 05:54:30 so we hasten the Singularity, wonderful 05:54:34 side-effects include complete extinction of humanity as we know it, earth becoming a minor datapoint, etc etc etc, do not use while pregnant 05:54:52 any ideas how to do that by 2030? 05:55:41 ehh 05:55:41 im working on it 05:55:50 augur: what, by studying linguistics? 05:55:53 no 05:55:54 very well 05:55:56 hehe 05:56:20 ho ho ho hee hee! hee! 05:56:28 then what, augur? 05:56:29 haa haa haa 05:56:33 :O 05:56:44 sorry 05:56:48 i just wanted to continue the whole 05:56:52 I Am the Walrus 05:56:55 thing that you had there 05:57:00 elaborate on "im working on it" :P 05:57:22 ehird 05:57:23 im not really 05:57:24 but 05:57:33 i /am/ working on something that might have applications in that domain 05:57:35 to a limit extent 05:57:44 doesn't that apply to like 05:57:47 oh, sorry, I didn't notice the Walrus in the room, sorry 05:57:48 most of all science 05:57:48 ever 05:57:51 heh 05:57:54 TELL US AUGUR 05:58:02 well 05:58:04 maybe 05:58:06 WHAT HAVE YOU GOT TO lose? your dignity? 05:58:07 but i mean more directly, ehird. 05:58:14 Oranjer: your caps lock? 05:58:14 anyway 05:58:19 :o 05:58:20 yeah i could lose that. 05:58:24 but anyway 05:58:49 part of the work i do on linguistics also involves a conceptual system 05:58:50 I already did, use Enso! 05:59:01 that might be extendable to some AI tasks 05:59:10 yay? 05:59:15 well you asked! 05:59:32 i'm fairly sure enso damages your hands (also it's unmaintained) 05:59:56 yeah, that too 05:59:58 :( 06:00:19 damages your hands = typing text while holding capslock 06:00:23 your left hand will looooooove you 06:00:38 uh 06:00:43 ew? 06:00:48 ... 06:00:49 not like that 06:00:52 ewww 06:00:56 Ensophile! 06:00:57 like the "OH GOD THE CRIPPLING PAIN" kind 06:00:58 haha 06:01:00 wait, that's still ambiguous 06:01:01 fuck 06:01:02 no 06:01:03 not fuck 06:01:03 argh 06:01:04 just 06:01:05 i'm stopping 06:01:06 this thread 06:01:07 right now 06:01:07 HAHA 06:01:09 new topic 06:01:09 HAHAHAH 06:01:14 NEW TOPIC 06:01:14 new topic calL! 06:01:16 enso is boringly simple. 06:01:21 and useless 06:01:24 NEW TPOCI 06:01:31 boringly simple is a pretty good praise of usability 06:01:38 who shall suggest the next topic? 06:01:44 boring = i didn't notice it bother me, simple = i didn't have to think much 06:01:47 and aza raskin makes me want to punch him in the face 06:01:50 of course useless is rather less praisey.... 06:01:50 he talks artificially 06:01:50 HEY 06:01:53 why's that? 06:01:57 he is cool :( 06:02:04 what's wrong with the Aza to you, punk? 06:02:11 although jef is cooler 06:02:13 well 06:02:13 was 06:02:14 true 06:02:16 its a nice IDEA 06:02:30 Enso was like the prototype for ubiquity, except ubiquity makes you use firefox; eww. 06:02:34 but its ... useless 06:02:37 also! 06:02:50 ehird, firefox's awesome bar removes most of the use of ubiquity 06:02:56 er 06:02:56 it's awesome, really 06:02:57 not really 06:03:01 WHAT 06:03:02 it doesn't do anything ubiquity does 06:03:07 oh? 06:03:07 and ubiquity postdates the awesomebar 06:03:12 so umm 06:03:13 fail :D 06:03:17 uhhh 06:03:26 ... 06:03:38 ................... 06:03:43 NEW TOPIC SUBJECT 06:04:33 i want to build an agent program. 06:04:39 Define "agent" 06:04:48 yeah 06:04:55 Observer, User 06:04:55 you know 06:04:57 :O 06:05:00 "you know" 06:05:02 "bullshit" 06:05:06 one of those things that chases renegages through the matrix! 06:05:06 "I'm calling it" 06:05:10 oh 06:05:17 ha 06:05:49 "Captain! What do we do now!" "Don't Worry--we'll just have to RE-ENGAGE!" 06:05:50 antecedent bricks, i should sleep soon :) 06:06:04 and by that i mean 06:06:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_agent 06:07:07 something that has a relatively general understanding of the workings of the computer's software (in the sense that quicksilver does) 06:07:49 but which can be issued complex commands (preferably verbally) that might require a more complicated process than simply issuing a single method call to something 06:07:55 "Agent, Open my Email." "I can't do that, Augur." 06:07:57 speech recognition sucks. 06:08:03 it does :( 06:08:11 /now/ it sucks 06:08:16 furthermore, i think clearer while i type 06:08:19 so fuck speech recog 06:08:26 well you can type if you want :p 06:08:27 haptic input, and then straight to brain control 06:08:33 all the rest is fluff 06:08:36 but anyway 06:08:38 NUI! NUI! 06:08:50 i want to try and get something that can take complex linguistic commands and execute them 06:09:01 hmmm 06:09:05 requires strong ai 06:09:08 nah 06:09:15 i mean, look 06:09:22 why not just use a formalized English or whatever? with a rigid structure? 06:09:23 quick silver is like a very primitive version of this 06:09:34 it has a small, but powerful lexicon of nouns and verbs 06:09:47 quicksilver doesn't let you issue natural commands at all 06:09:51 and you can, /effective/y, feed it simple sentences 06:10:07 heh, the / acts as an l 06:10:09 ofcourse theyre in the weird quicksilver dialect, but 06:10:43 what i intend would be something like quicksilver, in that it has a "vocabulary" of sorts 06:10:55 or more accurately 06:11:11 it has a subset of english as its grammar 06:11:16 yay 06:11:23 S-V-Modifiers! 06:11:24 and it has a well defined QS-like set of hooks into other applications 06:11:29 yaaaaayyy 06:11:43 hooks which, in this case, interface not with a surface grammatical form like in QS 06:11:51 but instead with a decomposed semantic representation 06:12:02 that is defined over the grammar 06:12:28 okay 06:13:22 theres actually a fairly powerful technique called frame semantics that's been used for automatic story comprehension 06:13:26 (back in the 70s) 06:13:45 i need to sleep soon 06:13:48 heh 06:13:54 enough so that the system can actually use its frame semantic knowledge to take a story about a guy going to a restaurant via train and bus 06:14:00 and then "going home" 06:14:07 ah 06:14:08 even tho he had no money 06:14:13 uh 06:14:15 and if you ask the system how he got home if he has no money 06:14:25 the computer will say "he probably had a return ticket!" 06:14:30 :O 06:14:42 so it actually infers beyond what is explicit to what is reasonably deducible 06:14:57 "Pay for my taxi, FS." "I can't do that, Dave." 06:15:02 because it has a collection of situational frames that 06:15:26 I think I would call that anologous relational structures 06:15:29 yaaaaay 06:15:41 augur: tl;dr almost all of it is hardcoded 06:15:51 teaching it about everything = wooooooooooooon't work 06:16:03 indeed, much of the frame semantic knowledge is hard coded 06:16:06 but its stuff like 06:16:19 "train-trips frame" 06:16:21 or something like that 06:16:39 which encodes things like who does what etc before during and after a train trip 06:16:40 and so forth 06:16:46 A computer that can bisociate? wonderful! 06:16:57 and then you have a system that can calculate over that 06:17:10 so how far are you, augur? 06:17:13 :O 06:17:19 the systems ive seen are indeed limited 06:17:21 BUT 06:17:28 im not looking to make AI from this 06:17:37 im saying it'd make an interesting quicksilver-like app 06:17:47 oookay 06:17:56 so what *are* you actually doing? 06:18:05 if you had a set of frame semantics + a linguistic engine 06:18:18 so that you can issue complex commands that are consistent with the frame semantic knowledge the program has 06:18:22 and then the program will execute it 06:18:40 something like a hybrid between quicksilver, applescript, and automator 06:18:45 uh-huh 06:18:50 so what are you doing? 06:18:59 watching startrek! :| 06:19:21 what do you mean what am i doing 06:20:18 what are you doing, with all these ideas and whatnot for frame thingies and stuff? 06:20:41 well 06:20:45 I believe we asked you what you were working on to hasten the Singularity to end religious indoctrination in children 06:20:52 im working on the conceptual semantic stuff 06:20:59 okay, that's cool 06:21:14 which would be necessary for a proper linguistic engine 06:21:19 -!- zzo38 has joined. 06:21:24 THAT could then be used to construct the agent app 06:21:26 How do you play a infernal offshoot of The Price Is Right? 06:21:47 by...guessing absurdly large amounts of money? 06:21:47 i... 06:21:52 And if you had to beat the Grim Reaper at one of these games to avoid death, which one would you prefer: chess, poker, or mahjong? 06:21:54 i have no idea how to answer that 06:21:56 ... 06:21:59 i don't know 06:22:00 Chess 06:22:08 less luck then poker or mahjong 06:22:15 poker, obviously death is perfect at the other two 06:22:15 I don't know either, but in order to know how to play, you have to know the rules, too, I guess. 06:22:18 and poker is the most chance-based 06:22:22 so i have the best chance 06:22:30 hmm, ehird does make a good point 06:22:55 but why should we assume the ol' Grimmy is the best at chess and mahjong? 06:23:00 also, if there's a grim reaper there's probably an afterlife dealie of some sort, so i wouldn't care too much 06:23:08 Oranjer: because he's post-mortal. 06:23:13 harrumph 06:23:14 supernatural. antitranscendent. 06:23:15 etc. 06:23:21 he could never have been alive, ya know 06:23:26 demon lord of the underworld. well, that's more satan 06:23:26 merely supernatural 06:23:27 but whatever 06:23:27 Yes, these are good point. I thought of it too, of course. But I got the idea at first from something in a list of adventure ideas for D&D game 06:23:37 the odds are better that he's better than me, imo. 06:23:40 uh okay 06:23:46 heh, okay, you win there ehird 06:25:59 Windows VM fun: oh fuck off, IE, I installed your update, so leave me alone and don't aadd me to my goddamn quick launch 06:26:08 hee hee this is amusing in some sick, twisted way 06:26:56 what? intrusive software? 06:27:06 bah! that's why I'm an advocate of 'permission marketing' 06:27:13 and no, i didn't make that one up 06:27:24 what does that even mean 06:28:19 Yes, I also want to know what it means because I don't quite understand completely either. 06:28:20 uh google maybe 06:28:32 okay I will get you the wikiwiki link uh okay 06:28:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permission_marketing 06:28:46 uh okay 06:29:22 I just found the same link 06:29:24 I'm saying that intrusive software is an expected result of living in a culture infested with interruptive marketing 06:29:49 Oranjer: you're boring! 06:29:54 sorry, ehird 06:29:54 also it's the OS's fault. 06:30:19 :( 06:30:30 :(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) 06:31:35 hey augur what do you think about: E-prime! 06:31:37 :O 06:32:06 its stupid 06:32:14 If you wrote a Linux distribution, which things would you change? 06:32:16 ...thanks, augur 06:32:25 (Or a completely new OS) 06:32:28 no idea, zzo38 06:32:34 oh, a completely new OS? 06:32:46 make it a physics based grammar! yaaaay 06:33:11 what 06:33:22 uhhh 06:34:05 make the the human-computer interaction based entirely on conditionals represented through the physical placement of objects along any number of scales 06:34:15 no. 06:34:50 ha! I can do that too! 06:34:52 yes. 06:34:58 *raspberry* 06:35:02 o_o 06:35:02 what 06:35:18 merely stating the contradiction without adding anything to the discussion 06:35:34 there was no contradiction 06:35:35 no. yes. no. YES. NO. AARFGGHSKF That is how wars are started! 06:35:41 you used an imperative. 06:35:49 i simply said no to that imperative. 06:35:54 oh, ha! 06:35:59 okay, fair enough 06:36:04 damn loopholes, though 06:36:23 im a linguist. 06:36:36 yep 06:36:41 i'm a pork 06:36:42 doing something with frames 06:36:51 * augur porks ehird 06:36:57 no 06:37:02 "I'm a linguist. Doing something with frames!" (copyright) 06:37:15 i'm a linguist 06:37:16 framing your mother 06:37:22 for what 06:37:27 dunno 06:37:54 aw 06:41:35 yay install sp 3 like a magic 06:41:53 uh okay 06:42:28 hey uh I am gone for a bit see you later uh okay 06:43:23 -!- Asztal has joined. 06:53:26 hello Asztal! 06:53:29 :O 06:55:56 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:08:42 -!- madbr has joined. 07:18:35 garfieldwithoutgarfieldorjonoranyofthecharactersoranypanelapartfromthefirst.com 07:18:37 it must be done 07:19:11 does your irc client have a proportionnal font? 07:19:16 yes 07:19:51 ok here's the first comic 07:19:52 .--------------------------. 07:19:52 | | 07:19:52 | | 07:19:52 | | 07:19:52 | | 07:19:54 | | 07:19:56 | | 07:19:58 | | 07:20:00 | | 07:20:02 | | 07:20:04 | | 07:20:06 | | 07:20:08 |__________________________| 07:20:14 you forgot the horizon line 07:20:18 and the different wall and floor 07:20:23 and also any plants that may be present 07:20:24 and telephones 07:20:29 the possibilities are endless 07:20:54 that's what your mom said 07:28:04 HA 07:28:18 oh, kinda late 07:28:21 :( 07:28:28 heh 07:29:01 about auxlangs, they should have, like, easy to pronounce sounds that most languages have :O 07:29:23 heh, tell that to augur, he believes natural languages are "efficient enough" 07:29:32 AUGUR I HAVE SUMMONED YOU! 07:29:41 i know 07:29:45 okay 07:29:48 hola augur 07:29:59 and auxlangs often do have easy to pronounce sounds 07:30:04 :O 07:30:11 Phonemes! 07:30:15 Mythemes! 07:30:18 well, natural languages are often not too "clean" but very expressive 07:30:29 augur: true 07:30:32 expressive about the familiar, yeah 07:30:45 the worst one they have normally is, what, /v/ ? 07:30:45 the truth is tho 07:30:53 /all/ sounds are easy to pronounce 07:30:55 for the most part 07:30:59 what does /v/ sound like 07:31:02 v 07:31:03 its just that once you learn a language, you forget how to pronounce them 07:31:06 oh, okay 07:31:11 heh 07:31:14 rearry? 07:31:16 /v/ isnt too bad 07:31:21 its just voiced /f/ 07:31:23 well 07:31:25 sorry 07:31:30 we really should say [v] and [f] 07:31:34 yay 07:31:44 since /v/ and /f/ are abstract language dependent object 07:31:45 s 07:31:48 well, by that I mean usually they have /b,f,v,w/ since they're romance-derived 07:32:05 although, I never did learn that IPI thingie majiger 07:32:15 IPA? 07:32:19 is there a video tutorial? :O 07:32:20 yeah! 07:32:42 -!- Sgeo has quit ("Leaving"). 07:32:45 it sucks going through wikipedia, and not knowing how to pronounce those words :( 07:32:49 :((( 07:32:51 trying to find one that's not english based 07:33:00 you are? 07:33:07 oh, ha 07:33:12 you're looking for tutorials? 07:33:15 aw, shucks 07:34:09 of course, augur, I should probably have clarified before 07:35:06 it wasn't really efficiency in languages that concerned me, if it was the effectiveness--as in, how effective would (could!) a natural language be when faced with new, unfamiliar phenomena? 07:35:38 I'm saying that there exists the possibility that a certain artificial language could be created to maximize creativity 07:35:41 :O 07:36:22 well, ipa is mostly... hmmm... 07:36:35 /a e i o u/ are like spanish vowels 07:37:28 /b d f h k l m n p s t v w z/ are pretty much the sounds you expect 07:37:53 I expect where? what do you mean? what's the context?!?! 07:39:30 /g/ is always hard, /j/ is actually "y" (like in german), /q/ is arabic "q", /r/ is rolled like in spanish, /x/ is spanish "j", /y/ is german "ü", /c/ is hungarian "ty" 07:39:50 jellow 07:39:56 oranjer: that's international phonetic alphabet 07:40:00 oh, okay 07:41:05 [ɺ͡ɺ̼] 07:41:09 do you see that? 07:41:12 yes 07:41:15 what is that 07:41:19 it is a sound 07:41:25 in a wikipedia article 07:41:29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language 07:41:37 (I love examining that language) 07:42:09 wow that is hard to pronounce 07:42:20 how does one pronounce it? 07:42:44 that sort of rr thing? dunno 07:42:52 :( 07:42:54 augur 07:43:11 what now 07:43:13 how do you pronounce [ɺ͡ɺ̼], augur 07:43:31 wait, HOLYSHIT 07:43:37 madbr, are you madbrain? 07:43:44 :O 07:43:48 sounds like rl*tongue hits the bottom of the mouth* 07:43:50 yes 07:44:00 daaaaamn, I feel like an idiot now 07:44:07 hey madbr 07:44:10 uh 07:44:59 hey 07:45:05 where did you get that information, madbr? 07:45:10 that it sounds like that? 07:45:14 can you read that notation? 07:45:17 [ɺ͡ɺ̼]? 07:45:50 oh 07:46:09 yes thats probably the crazy sound that everett talks about 07:46:25 everett? what 07:46:30 oh ha 07:46:33 the guy in the article 07:46:45 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language, you saw that, right? 07:46:59 i havent read it 07:47:08 okay 07:47:13 everett is an anthropologist that worked with pirahã 07:47:17 im not sure exactly how to pronounce it; im not good with lateral taps 07:47:22 ah 07:47:30 but its presumably roughly like a japanese "r" 07:47:37 but done twice 07:47:37 Some people say he was not a praticularly good anthropologist 07:47:42 heh 07:47:56 with the first part with the tongue touching the top lip instead of the alveolar ridge 07:47:59 augur: the description says the second part is linguolabial :O 07:48:11 oh was it the first part? 07:48:12 er 07:48:13 second? 07:48:14 whatever 07:48:17 yeah soz. 07:48:29 description, madbr? where? 07:48:51 it probably sounds a LOT like the "dle" in "cuddle 07:48:58 """[ɺ͡ɺ̼] is a lateral alveolar-linguolabial double flap that has only been reported for this language, where the tongue strikes the upper gum ridge and then strikes the lower lip. However, it is only used in certain special types of speech performances, and so might not be considered a normal speech sound."" 07:49:37 oh, ha 07:49:44 missed that, I guess 07:50:50 I dunno, if it conveys info, is it not a "speech sound"? 07:51:40 well, this says that it's basically a weird version of /g~n/ 07:51:50 uh-huh 07:52:30 and basically a substitute where the guy would say /g/ (or its allophone [n]) normally 07:52:44 the fact that its the ONLY language with it as a speech sound is ... odd 07:52:51 and? 07:52:52 but 07:52:55 on the other hand 07:52:56 oh! 07:53:05 we know that sign languages have phonology of signs 07:53:10 yes 07:53:16 oh, they do? 07:53:19 so the clear line between what is and isnt a speech sound is complicated 07:53:19 wait what 07:53:21 yes, they do. :) 07:53:24 :O 07:53:25 abstract phonology 07:53:27 how...? 07:53:28 ooooh 07:53:29 haha 07:53:31 okay 07:53:41 well, the rr sound is too slow to really work in normal speech in pirahã 07:53:53 their "phonemes" are "articulatory" aspects of signs 07:54:13 okay 07:54:18 hand position, shape, speed, etc. 07:54:32 i think it mostly means our language part of the brain normally deals with N possibilities 07:54:52 ie meaning is decoded into a sequence where each part can be one of N 07:55:05 some people believe that theres a well defined space of phonetic/phonological phenomena 07:55:09 that is Phonology 07:55:15 what about you? 07:55:17 and the rest is sort of bootstrapped into language 07:55:25 i think phonology is boring and so i dont give a shit 07:55:37 haha 07:55:49 tho if forced 07:55:56 it doesnt seem to be NECESSARY 07:56:04 augur: more into grammar? semantics? :) 07:56:10 syntax! 07:56:11 syntax and semantics, yep. 07:56:15 yay 07:56:24 sorry about confusing the defo's of those two before 07:56:28 if we were in ##compling seppbot would have said by now 07:56:32 "Chomsky is cunnilingual!" 07:56:39 ha 07:56:43 except... 07:56:46 seppbot isnt there 07:56:46 wtf 07:56:58 noones there except rziai 07:57:12 :O 07:57:24 fungot, what do you have to say about linguistics? 07:57:25 Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis". 07:57:35 whoa 07:57:43 that makes sense 07:57:53 it even has matched parentheses 07:57:59 amazing 07:58:05 hello, Asztal! 07:58:15 hello 07:58:43 uh 07:58:45 augur: eh, yeah, phonetics are definitely less vast than those fields 07:58:47 Asztal 07:58:56 it has matched parens because it took it from a quote it has stored. 07:59:08 madbr: its not that phonetics and phonology are less vast 07:59:22 two paraphrase richard larson 07:59:30 if it turns out that they're right, so what? 07:59:35 haha 07:59:45 eh 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:00:16 fungot, your thoughts on phonology? 08:00:18 Oranjer: i've removed the note. --user:jayhenryjayhenry 17:38, 15 march 2007 ( utc)'" i think it would be nice if all the matter in the work of her party of government, and the now illegal immigrants are considered a burden upon the welfare state. implementing socialism on a national scale does not advance socialisms goals fnord, because of his bias, his view is very helpful in understanding some of what has been reported on th 08:00:39 uh 08:00:41 true, doesn't have too many deep psychological impacts 08:00:42 ^style 08:00:42 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp* youtube 08:00:53 it doesnt have ANY psychological impacts 08:00:58 ^style lovecraft 08:00:58 Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings) 08:01:03 yay fungot 08:01:04 Oranjer: st john is a mangled corpse; i alone know why, and such words as sabaoth, metraton on agla fnord, 08:01:09 :O 08:01:54 augur: on the other hand it's much easier to verify, I guess 08:02:05 sure, i guess 08:02:07 haha 08:02:11 easy funding!!! 08:02:16 so is geography 08:02:54 like, if you analyze a language, eventually you get a phonology with N phonemes 08:02:57 im not interested in phonology. 08:03:18 :O 08:03:23 haha 08:03:27 morphemes! 08:03:33 graphemes! 08:03:35 mythemes! 08:03:36 morphemes no 08:03:38 graphemes no 08:03:41 awwww 08:03:42 mythemes, thats not even linguistics 08:03:46 heh 08:03:49 graphemes thats only marginally linguistic 08:03:50 graphemes is the written version of phonemes 08:03:57 yeppo 08:04:24 they're not very deep either 08:04:55 well, depth is largely dependent more on how time we've spent on them, eh? 08:05:01 dunno, i have a hard time with semantics 08:05:11 yay augur can help you! 08:06:05 yes, i can 08:06:13 i can deal with the slighty fuzzy logic of, say, music theory or even phonetics, but semantics are on a whole other scale :D 08:06:26 yaaaaaaay 08:06:30 bisociation! 08:06:42 what 08:07:36 the theory that creativity comes from the juxtaposition of seeing one thing in regards to two separate systems 08:07:47 as for grammar... well, let's say that having two different classes about it with two completely different analysis of french one semester was a tad scary :) 08:08:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Act_of_Creation 08:08:39 one was a syntax class with some kinda generativist-derived stuff 08:08:39 a little summary 08:09:29 the other had a completely different system that the teacher referred to as "semantic grammar" I think 08:09:36 so, the teacher taught both in the same class, at the same time? what? 08:09:44 no, two different teachers 08:09:48 oh, ha 08:10:04 my guess would have been a better class, me thinks 08:10:05 different teaching approaches and stuff 08:10:58 meh 08:11:00 the second one obviously liked verbose stuff, including stuff that would be much better expressed as a diagram 08:11:08 :O 08:11:21 I would love a teacher that taught soley with dynamic diagrams 08:11:38 diagrammatic reasoning!!! yaaaaay! 08:11:44 first one was, well, turn a sentence into a tree 08:11:56 make sure you do it right 08:12:09 semantic grammar :| 08:12:12 heh 08:12:13 he better not have used that term :| 08:12:18 thats mine! >| 08:12:21 haha 08:12:24 angry vclops 08:12:28 I should check 08:12:36 or is vclops always angry? 08:12:39 >>| 08:12:47 well, theres a computational thing called that 08:12:50 `addquote Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis". 08:12:50 ehird: and up the hill. 08:12:53 95| Oranjer: the taylor's series is also alternately fnord as follows ( i'm using the latex notation here): david ben gurion signed the compensation agreement with germany when there was considerable division over these issues, because these are speculations without " any historical basis". 08:13:02 but its pretty un-used afaik 08:13:07 and not well documented 08:13:12 ha 08:13:27 ehird, why document the random gibberings of an old bot? 08:13:35 why not 08:13:39 okay 08:13:40 sure 08:13:52 not significantly worse than the other 94 quotes 08:13:58 haha 08:14:00 augur: it had concepts like nominal substantives and determniation relationships 08:14:10 im not sure that those mean :D 08:14:20 nominal substantives = nouns 08:14:39 haha 08:14:58 are there other kinds of substantives? 08:14:59 determination relationships = the relationship between nouns, articles, adjectives, nominal complements... 08:15:14 yes, adjectival substantives 08:15:18 ie adjectives 08:15:20 anymore? 08:15:31 what is a substantive, anyway? the word itself? 08:15:42 it's an old latin term for noun I think 08:15:52 uhhhh 08:15:55 -!- FireFly has joined. 08:16:01 hello, Firefly 08:16:06 I just watched Serenity 08:16:11 he also had a distinction between verbal substantive and verbal adjective 08:16:21 :O 08:16:26 are those real things? 08:16:31 what ARE they? 08:16:43 oh yeah, it was nominal adjective for adjectives, not the other thing I said 08:16:55 sounds pretty useless man 08:17:09 Hello, Oranjer 08:17:11 Hm, sounds like I jumped into some interesting conversation 08:17:16 oranjer: well, the distinction is that the substantive was the sentence's topic but the adjective wasn't 08:17:41 so, subjects and compliments and adjuncts? 08:18:06 augur: well, the determination relationship stuff worked but some other stuff was a bit crazy 08:18:19 no i mean 08:18:25 the whole thing just seems stupid 08:18:32 "nominal substantive" 08:18:34 "seems stupid" 08:18:35 just uckin say noun 08:18:37 heh 08:18:42 yeah, I agree about that 08:18:47 ALTHOUGH 08:18:58 when you go through the trouble of obfuscating well established terms for no good reason, its usually because youre full of shit 08:19:19 I always found using new names, names that, perhaps, reveal alternatives within it, are useful 08:19:33 like, a noun is a noun, but when you define it as a "nominal substantive" 08:19:45 you leave the door open for other types of "substantives" 08:19:55 and other things described as "nominal" 08:20:04 I dunno, I find it useful 08:21:13 no thoughts on that? sorry, mates 08:21:15 :( 08:21:29 it had [nominal,verbal,pronominal,participle,modal,another one i can't remember] x [substantive,adjective] 08:21:32 uh 08:21:32 yeah 08:21:35 theyre aled words. 08:21:41 aled? 08:21:44 called* 08:21:58 oh 08:22:02 calling something a substantive only makes sense if substantive actually means something 08:22:07 yes 08:22:08 but! 08:22:25 you define what "substantive" means by those things you use that word to describe, eh? 08:22:30 haha! delightful 08:22:39 thats stupid 08:22:46 *sigh* 08:22:46 augur: yeah, in that particular case it was something like "the word has a base meaning instead of just deriving another word's meaning" 08:22:47 really stupid 08:22:57 ... 08:23:02 theres a word for that already too. 08:23:03 augur, do you...actually create anything? 08:23:09 its called a root. 08:23:12 yes, oranjer, i do. 08:23:14 :O 08:23:22 :( what? ) 08:23:32 augur: I said it the wrong way around 08:23:57 "red" is a root but in that particular system it would be an "adjective", not "substantive" 08:24:17 sounds ontological 08:24:48 what 08:25:01 yeah, madbr, what? 08:25:10 I think the distinction was that a "substantive" referred to at least a base set of concepts, while an "adjective" doesn't have a base set and is more subtractive in nature 08:25:21 oooo subtractive 08:25:24 that's a good one 08:26:40 anyways, the generativist "let's make trees" class was easier :D 08:26:45 also, madbr, what if we added "quasimodal" to that permutation you described earlier? 08:26:57 what would that be 08:27:00 quasimodal substantive! 08:27:04 I dunno, let's define it 08:27:06 .. 08:27:17 I know what quasimodal means, of course 08:27:29 Jef Raskin did that stuff 08:27:52 i love hci let's talk about some more hci also operating systems since i like operating systems well not current operating systems but 08:27:55 hell LO 08:27:57 i think the real problem was something more like "its the teacher's own system" or something like that 08:27:59 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mode_%28computer_interface%29#Quasimodes 08:28:06 oh 08:28:06 i should probably eat to sustain me until i decide i should bed myself 08:28:18 ewww ehird's gonna bed himself 08:28:24 :| 08:28:25 stfu 08:28:32 :{} 08:28:38 madbr 08:28:42 anyway the problem with quasimodes is hand fatigue. 08:28:43 it sounds like you were doing morphology 08:28:44 not syntax 08:28:59 yeah, that's a problem, ehird 08:29:18 in fact, modifier keys are pretty much broken 08:29:23 I thought of a solution, though 08:29:31 ehird, i like modifier keys :| 08:29:32 Ctrl+x isn't more than a millisecond faster than Ctrl, x 08:29:36 :O I LOVE modifier keys! 08:29:42 and your hand will like you for more years with the latter 08:29:43 hah, augur, we agree on something! 08:29:48 not the concept of modifier keys, they are fine 08:29:50 i mean the way you execute it 08:29:53 yeah 08:29:55 by holding it down and hitting another key 08:29:56 BUT 08:29:58 that's broken, ergonomically 08:30:03 except ehird, what about sequences? 08:30:06 I found a possible solution 08:30:15 it may be obvious, but we need to think of something just as good that doesn't wreck our hands 08:30:17 augur: like what 08:30:20 also, how is it ergonomically broken 08:30:22 meh, sequences might introduce modal errors 08:30:24 use the right command key, fool. 08:30:27 i'd explain, but i cba to explain 08:30:28 also, you fail 08:30:37 what, ehird? 08:30:39 or control 08:30:39 anyway sequences are easy 08:30:41 same thing 08:30:47 thats why theres two sets 08:30:48 ctrl, alt, x is perfectly unambiguous 08:30:52 augur 08:30:53 please shut up 08:31:00 you're showing your lack of ergonomic knowledge 08:31:01 stop that 08:31:03 thank you for agreeing that you're wrong 08:31:11 admittedly i don't have much, but more than you 08:31:14 sequences would only work if it is completely unambiguous where you are in the sequence 08:31:21 also, ive been using a computer longer than you and ive never had issues with the ergonomics of command keys 08:31:27 ive never heard anyone else complain 08:31:28 so 08:31:30 you're full of shit 08:31:34 hahahahahahahaha 08:31:35 but then, you're only 14 08:31:35 so 08:31:40 its to be expected! 08:31:43 i'm sorry augur, can i repeat your argument 08:31:47 now now, calling names and yelling "Ignorant fool! your children will be cursed with Gay!" at each other! 08:31:50 dammit 08:32:01 *is no way to have an argument! 08:32:02 oranjer, you're new to #esoteric 08:32:05 "I have personally used computers for some more years than you, and I have not yet had hand problems, therefore all of currently-accepted ergonomics is wrong" 08:32:07 augur 08:32:09 gtfo 08:32:10 stu 08:32:13 *stfu 08:32:13 ahhhhhhhhh 08:32:14 diaf 08:32:15 kthxbai 08:32:17 this is how we do things here in esoland 08:32:21 no more acronyms pl0x 08:32:35 ehird and i are actually boyfriends, he's sitting a few feet from me. 08:32:39 :O 08:32:40 its all part of the fun of being on irc 08:32:41 "get the fuck out, shut the fuck up, die in a fire, kay thanks bye"; it's basically my way of saying QED 08:32:44 also, augur is a liar. 08:32:45 well, alt,f4 is a bit more dangerous than alt+f4 :D 08:32:47 a dirty liar. 08:32:57 i am but what does he know? 08:33:04 ANYWAY 08:33:11 long-term what we need is direct-brain interfaces — erm, backtrack — 08:33:14 are we gonna start suggesting solutions? 08:33:17 long-term what we need is to get rid of input and output devices 08:33:20 yes, ehird, short term 08:33:21 and have them be the same thing 08:33:30 but unless you want to give up on haptic feedback, at the moment, you can't do that 08:33:34 so 08:33:35 i agree tho that command keys could probably be done like that ehird. 08:33:36 :T 08:33:41 interface problems? hmmm 08:33:41 we have to make do with the reality of i/o separation 08:33:49 augur: in fact you can enable stickykeys in windows to get this 08:33:50 dammit yes 08:33:54 the founder of emacswiki does it 08:33:57 yuck stickykeys 08:33:59 Oranjer: what was that dammit yes to? 08:34:06 -!- kar8nga has joined. 08:34:11 I dunno, ehird 08:34:18 you know 08:34:22 it just seems that we're doing this wrongly 08:34:24 sticky keys never seemed to work right for me 08:34:28 but then 08:34:28 incorrectiful 08:34:31 i was on ME when i tried it 08:34:32 so... 08:34:34 yeah, well, that's windowsfor you 08:34:38 *windows for 08:34:42 fuck this keyboard 08:34:46 haha 08:34:50 okay 08:34:53 keybosexual 08:34:55 what if we had sequences 08:34:58 but 08:35:03 keyboards are fast but they require memorizing 08:35:04 the display on each key 08:35:09 madbr: ah, but not inherently 08:35:11 key bindings do 08:35:15 changed to what it would actually do when pressed 08:35:18 mouses are slow but they don't require as much memorization 08:35:21 but not a command-based (or "linguistic") interface 08:35:23 that's less efficient, though 08:35:26 madbr: please 08:35:28 stop generalisiing 08:35:33 what you are saying is keybinding vs WIMP 08:35:35 not keyboard vs mouse 08:35:39 neither r are desirable 08:35:43 *drop that whole r word 08:35:49 like, when I press "control", the "X" key changes to display "cut" 08:35:52 or whatever 08:35:54 mouses are known to be in no way significantly faster overall. research has already established this. 08:35:55 *generalising 08:35:56 dunno, I like keyboards 08:35:56 Oranjer: no no no 08:35:59 Oranjer: touch-type, man 08:36:01 madbr: yes 08:36:01 why not, ehird? 08:36:04 oh, right 08:36:05 madbr: keyboard != keybinding 08:36:06 damn 08:36:08 er 08:36:11 significantly slower** 08:36:19 [09:35:15] changed to what it would actually do when pressed 08:36:23 well, how are you going to use a keyboard without keybinding? 08:36:23 Optimus Maximus? 08:36:26 augur: true but also untrue 08:36:27 A bit too expensive for me 08:36:27 LISTEN 08:36:28 infact they're faster over all. they just /seem/ slower because the cognitive load is lower. 08:36:28 haha 08:36:28 SHUT UP 08:36:29 SHUT TUP 08:36:30 LISTEN 08:36:31 just 08:36:32 listen 08:36:33 ehird 08:36:35 no, there would be LED's 08:36:36 haha 08:36:37 listen 08:36:38 only your cock will shut me up 08:36:40 okay, ehird 08:36:40 augur 08:36:45 what you are saying is 08:36:48 btw, have you seen moon? 08:36:54 I have not 08:36:55 "WIMP-style mouse interfaces" are faster than "keybindings to WIMP menu items" 08:36:58 YES this is true 08:37:00 I will now go outside and look at it 08:37:04 PIE MENUS 08:37:08 but overall, a keyboard can be faster FOR THE THINGS IT EXCELS at, if given a system designed for it: 08:37:12 a linguistic, or command interface 08:37:13 they allow for both beginners and experts! 08:37:14 yay 08:37:20 by automating tasks, it can be significantly faster than a mouse 08:37:20 so 08:37:21 yes 08:37:22 what you say is true 08:37:24 for current GUIs 08:37:25 however 08:37:31 it is useless for designing future UIs 08:37:36 NUI NUI 08:37:36 and misleading to say the least 08:37:47 also, Everyware 08:37:51 moon is an ... interesting movie 08:37:55 oh, ha! 08:38:00 ehird, yes, well ofcourse 08:38:01 I still wanna see the moon, though 08:38:02 see ya 08:38:09 well, what magic solution are you going to come up to deal with the fact that you need a way to access each command, eh? 08:38:17 its faster for a keyboard interface 08:38:24 its all in context 08:38:44 tho arguably a sufficiently complex CLI will probably still be slower for the same tasks 08:38:55 augur: are you suggesting that a fully expressive, well-designed command/linguistic interface (therefore supporting automation) would be slower than slogging through repetitive grunt-and-clicks? 08:39:04 tho i suppose it would depend on the full keyboard arrangement you could construct 08:39:13 because, really, the only way i can make that true in my head is by assuming either a really retarded command/linguistic interface or a magical mouse (HEY APPLE) 08:39:15 but 08:39:17 i don't mean like unix cli 08:39:24 oh ok 08:39:29 text is limited, and the unix cli syntax is untenable for really quick activation 08:39:39 well everyone i know who argues about this shit is CLI-whoring 08:39:40 so 08:39:42 i'm thinking of a completion system, where you can have keybindings and then type on to disambiguate 08:39:49 with rich objects that know what they can do 08:39:52 and can order by the most common item 08:40:06 that's a linguistic interface, not a dumb text-command-to-text-output-with-text-streams-oh-joy unix crapfest 08:40:13 what's CLI? also, it's the wrong time to see the moon here 08:40:15 so who wants to learn about semantics? :X 08:40:20 command-line interface 08:40:22 Oranjer: command-line interface 08:40:23 thanks 08:40:26 oranjer, not THE moon 08:40:28 "Moon" 08:40:29 the movie 08:40:31 I know, augur 08:40:34 augur: that thing you said that would be useful for a quicksilver thing, you should talk to me about that sometime; i'd actually listen for once 08:40:36 but I wanted to see the moon anyway 08:40:47 Spontaneity! WHOOOOO 08:40:49 which thing 08:40:54 augur: eh you mentioned it 08:40:57 the agent program? 08:41:00 yeah 08:41:04 oh. awesome. 08:41:17 i was actually about to ask you if you wanted to work on something like that but decided you would probably not want to 08:41:44 ? 08:41:49 i think for it to know the inner workings of programs would probably require my OSs detached objects, instead of programs, so I'm totally for co-opting that 08:41:52 of course, that's rather long-term... 08:42:02 working on it for an existing OS could be fun though. 08:42:17 well, the hooks into the OS would be something like what you can do with QS and automator right now 08:42:22 i don't think any of them provide the sort of toes-curled-up-in-soil deep inspection that'd be needed 08:42:27 the scripting hooks that already exist 08:42:31 augur: right, but they don't go very deep, really 08:42:34 sure 08:42:45 I mean, I can't accomplish much of what i want to do with quicksilver at all 08:42:46 but we'll do what we can with what we've got 08:42:53 what do you want to do 08:42:54 ? 08:43:01 what are you even talking about 08:43:03 co-opt the ideas into my OS, naturally. 08:43:20 that's what they're talking about, madbr 08:43:22 it's, amusingly, almost perfectly designed for the kind of hooks that'd be required 08:43:24 in what sense, ehird 08:43:36 COLLABORATION! 08:43:41 yaaay 08:43:41 take your shit and apply it to my OS interface research 08:43:46 constructiveness 08:43:47 not... your literal shit 08:43:53 oh i see 08:44:05 in fact, the focus on objects and the abolishment of programs, I think, is helpful 08:44:07 so have an OS that is, from the core up, built with that sort of exposure in mind 08:44:10 nobody thinks in programs or talks about progarms 08:44:12 *programs 08:44:19 omg 08:44:20 ehird wait 08:44:22 I think in programs 08:44:22 they think about things, combining things, making them act with other things 08:44:26 abolishment of programs? 08:44:28 so you want to do data-oriented OS design 08:44:32 rather than program-oriented? 08:44:35 Oranjer: when on a computer, yes, because it's co-opted you to its evil 08:44:37 YES abolishment of programs! 08:44:37 augur: Yes. 08:44:51 wait, Jef Raskin made a good article on this, madbr 08:44:51 where data is primary, and you just have external services that hook into it on the fly and do whatever you need to do 08:44:55 linky coming up 08:44:58 Rich, smart data with multiple interfaces! Viva la somethingution. 08:45:00 augur: YES 08:45:03 augur: Yes yes yes yes yes 08:45:05 marry me :( 08:45:05 augur: <3 08:45:07 abolishment of programs sounds like a rather radical agenda 08:45:07 ok 08:45:13 ive been looking for someone to work with on this kind of thing for like 08:45:14 madbr: My OS is rather radical... 08:45:15 THREE YEARS 08:45:28 madbr: For a start it also does away with C! 08:45:30 hey, augur, we all agree programs are bad 08:45:37 UNTRUE 08:45:39 MADBR IS UNSURE 08:45:40 I THINK 08:45:41 http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.06/1.6_guis.html 08:45:44 shut up oranjer the grown ups are talking 08:45:49 xD 08:45:51 (:() 08:45:59 haha 08:46:03 well, the other kind of separation of code I know of is plug-ins 08:46:16 so ehird, i want to do this 08:46:37 madbr: stop thinking in code 08:46:40 think about the data, the documents 08:46:46 and them knowing the code 08:46:48 data documents! 08:46:50 haha i'm lolling at that jef raskin article 08:46:51 he's like 08:46:59 "you know that mac thing i designed? desktop icons pointy clicky menus?" 08:47:00 ok, suppose I have a song 08:47:00 "FUCK" 08:47:01 ehird, i think that like 08:47:01 "THAT" 08:47:02 then what 08:47:03 "SHIT" 08:47:04 haha 08:47:08 madbr: most vague statement ever 08:47:15 hahahaha 08:47:16 haskell-like data orientation is kind of the programming equivalent of this idea 08:47:18 let's say a .mid 08:47:26 madbr: shush the grownups are talking 08:47:31 EVERYTHING WILL BECOME CLEAR! 08:47:34 pff 08:47:36 and that might be a good programming environment for that sort of task too 08:47:44 augur: i'm of a slightly more object-oriented persuation 08:47:50 thats fine 08:47:54 the original smalltalk is still, in my opinion, unsurpassed as an OS. 08:48:06 probably 08:48:08 google time 08:48:13 i would like to see something thats smalltalky 08:48:15 but at the same time 08:48:22 has the symmetry of data-oriented programming 08:48:27 that sounds cool 08:48:30 i think the project demands a new language anyway 08:48:35 awesome 08:48:38 it's a clean slate, and it's very different to the usual crop 08:48:46 and there'll be scarce compatibility anyway 08:48:55 so why not make something tailored 08:49:03 we can always compile to C 08:49:06 noooooooooooo 08:49:08 non nonono nonononono 08:49:11 aww 08:49:12 ok. 08:49:19 i have very strong opinions on this and lots of thought processes :P 08:49:26 we could compile to zimbu! 08:49:27 XD 08:49:33 let's compile ... to lojban 08:49:37 oh god 08:49:39 duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude 08:49:42 human 08:49:43 OS 08:49:45 whooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaa 08:50:04 http://www.zimbu.org/ 08:50:05 what the hell is this shit 08:50:07 but then all the lojbanists will be perfectly suited to run it 08:50:12 its horrible is what it is ehird 08:50:14 an interpreted language isn't suitable to write a text editor? lol 08:50:18 what a bunch of bullshit 08:51:37 i'd love to design the hardware from scratch too to remove all the bloat and crap and bullshit that i'll have to deal with on the x86, but that's just not practical 08:51:45 DO it 08:52:06 hardware design is really not my thing 08:52:11 evict all the integers and make it floating point-based 08:52:12 oh okay 08:52:15 and it raises the barrier to entry oh so much 08:52:20 yeah... 08:52:22 :( 08:52:23 then make it compile to FPU stack code 08:52:30 instead of downloading some free software and booting to it, you have to buy some $500 pile of hardware and flash it all 08:52:31 what uhhh what madbr what 08:53:04 beagle board could be a choice no? 08:53:52 haha what 08:54:01 "single chip computer" 08:54:04 nice 08:54:06 I guess? 08:55:02 it's a world of vlsi integration and systems on a chip 08:55:08 :O 08:55:46 also, ehird, can't you eventually replace pie menus with eye movement during a quasimode? 08:56:14 but yeah you could evict integers from your design... floating point is longer to calculate with but these days chips have so many transistors that it's not the bottleneck anymore 08:56:18 controlling eye movement isn't very natural or easy 08:56:37 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 08:57:25 that's why some languages only have floating point (lua, javascript...) 08:57:48 hmmm 08:58:08 floating point is shit 08:58:09 i hate it 08:58:12 finger pointing? 08:58:18 it's not useful for aaaaaaaaaanythign 08:58:21 :P 08:58:46 floating point is THE shit 08:58:55 <3 08:59:04 heh 08:59:24 what I've seen of it is a gain in effectiveness and a loss in efficiency 09:00:23 well, sound processing switched to floating point because sound processing uses lots of multiplications, and on the original pentium floating point multiplication was afaik faster than integer multiplication even 09:00:34 APL 09:01:29 a couple of old plugin interfaces started using float and it stuck 09:02:16 but it's extremely useful because you don't have to build headroom into anything anymore 09:02:43 E-prime 09:02:57 Fungot, what do you think? 09:03:05 uh it is broken 09:03:07 fungot 09:03:08 Oranjer: you recall that pickman's fnord was faces. i don't wish to offend you, and haue longe fnord upon ye way of get'g backe after ye laste. i laste night fnord on ye n. side of olney's court. distance from boston stone fnord. fnord fnord and from the titanic flat roof, with its curious illustrations by the brothers de fnord, composed in fnord but after a hypodermic injection it became more regular. 09:03:11 ahhhhhhh 09:03:33 -!- kar8nga has joined. 09:03:56 geez you bot that's a lot of fnords what are you saying this is supposed to be depressing? geez 09:04:18 e-prime is silly 09:05:12 english has sufficient mechanisms to deal with different degrees of evidentiality 09:05:29 bah! they're hardly mandatory 09:06:06 that's because you don't always need to express evidentiality 09:06:19 sometimes it's totally besides point 09:06:21 I would say that you would, to avoid conflict 09:06:30 yeah, yeah, artistic license 09:06:52 well, why do you think people say "afaik" and "i think" all the time? :D 09:07:01 heh 09:07:14 there was even someone lamenting the use of that kind of stuff by politicians 09:07:19 but that's only to express explicit uncertainty 09:07:22 oh? 09:07:26 HA AH! 09:07:35 make all legal documents in e-prime! 09:07:55 and make politicians use it! yaaaay! 09:08:51 that's because less uncertainty is the default 09:09:05 meh 09:09:36 I still say I've seen it prevent apparent conflicts 09:09:46 plus, you're missing how useful and expressive "to be" is in english 09:09:53 yeah, I know 09:09:55 it's a copula 09:10:03 I only mean when we use it as a stative 09:10:09 where nothing changes 09:10:25 to be or not to be 09:10:27 how do you say that in e-prime 09:10:29 heh 09:10:37 as I said before, artistic license 09:10:43 pf 09:10:49 also, other e-prime people have already done that 09:11:07 but then, they merely removed the use of "to be" 09:11:19 well, the grass is green 09:11:21 I prefer focusing on removing statives 09:11:34 what's the point 09:11:40 oh? what does this green grass do? where'd you find it? 09:11:46 to remove ambiguity 09:12:10 it doesn't do anything 09:12:25 "God exists!" "God doesn't exist!" *FIGHT* vs. "God exists, and I think that because..." "Well, I disagree on..." *NOT FIGHT* 09:12:46 ....................................................................no 09:12:50 haha 09:12:54 do we fight now? 09:13:49 like, how else would you express something like that 09:14:08 how else would I express what? 09:14:10 the grass is green 09:14:26 quite simply, what information does that contain? 09:14:35 the color of the grass 09:14:43 exactly--the color according to who? 09:14:50 me? 09:14:57 "The grass appears green to me" 09:15:02 of course 09:15:06 oh god are you kids talking about e-prime 09:15:10 heh 09:15:12 yeah, dad! 09:15:23 oranjer: there's no point to that 09:15:25 the whole purpose of eprime is noble, but misguided 09:15:31 bah! 09:15:37 also, removing "be" is a failure to achieve this goal. 09:15:45 augur! I just talked about that! 09:15:53 I only wish to remove stative verbs 09:15:54 oranjer: plus you still have an attribute, except it's implicit 09:16:03 uh what madbr 09:16:14 stative verbs arent the issue either 09:16:28 what would you define the issue as, then, augur? 09:16:39 ambiguity itself, I would guess? 09:16:39 like, you could wrap any sentence that way 09:16:55 true, madbr, but I would hardly call that creative 09:17:06 the fact that languages as a whole permit things like indicative mood, realis modality, and non-evidentiality 09:17:10 "bob eats pork" -> "bob appears eating pork to me" 09:17:17 you could always just promote using quechua. 09:17:18 heh 09:17:38 I find "bob eats pork" none-too-distasteful 09:17:46 hmmm... 09:17:50 true, I see your point 09:17:54 also, quechua? 09:17:56 google time 09:18:03 quechua has evidentiality 09:18:07 like, why is that ok but "the grass is green" not 09:18:10 yay! 09:18:11 mandatory evidentiality, if i recall correctly 09:18:15 thinking, madbr 09:18:24 yeah, augur, I want mandatory evidentiality 09:18:38 it'll vanish in time due to natural changes in the language. 09:18:52 awwwww 09:19:04 and even then 09:19:07 I would hardly say such vanishing would help the sciences and arts 09:19:12 USING the RIGHT evidentiality marker is a choice people make 09:19:22 true...hmmm 09:19:41 sometimes its necessary to say things are just this way, that its fact 09:19:50 ie in the sciences, vs. religion 09:20:03 and sometimes its necessary to lie 09:20:07 heh 09:20:16 language is the way it is 09:20:32 trying to make a particular language better is a failure of understanding of what language does in the first place 09:20:57 uh what ha ha ha! 09:21:05 hahahahahahahHAhaahaahAHAHahAHAhA 09:21:32 and a failure to understand how languages work in reality 09:21:34 It seems to me augur you just attempted to use the argument of the masses on me 09:21:38 hahAHHahAaha 09:22:03 the argument of the masses? 09:22:09 oranjer: you just don't get how efficient a language like english is 09:22:26 not efficiency, madbr 09:22:30 and how hard it is to beat something like english at being expressive 09:22:34 effectiveness in dealing with the unknown 09:22:44 language isnt designed to deal with the unknown 09:22:49 and e-prime isnt either 09:22:54 ha! touche 09:22:56 (by language, i mean the human language faculty) 09:23:24 then we should create a means of communication that expressly takes the unknown into consideration! yaaaaaaaay! 09:23:30 oranjer: then perhaps you could try your hand at adding evidentiality to english 09:23:36 good luck btw 09:23:38 good luck oranjer 09:23:40 heh, thanks 09:23:44 to do that you'd need to modify the brain. 09:23:48 ha! 09:23:50 says you 09:23:53 not really 09:23:59 oh-ho-ho? 09:24:11 -!- immibis has quit ("On the other hand, you have different fingers."). 09:24:14 if your brain does not already incorporate a mechanisms for doing this sort of thing, other than language, you cant do it 09:24:22 and language is the only thing anyone knows of that does this 09:24:30 if something else existed, we'd be using it already 09:24:37 heh 09:24:58 well, language does suffer from bandwidth limitations 09:25:09 to some extent 09:25:11 but consider 09:25:17 i can talk faster than i can type. 09:25:24 on the other hand, i can edit what i type before i talk 09:25:29 before i send* rather 09:25:30 (irony!) 09:25:33 about 50 bits per second I think 09:25:54 depends on what you mean by that 09:26:07 that's how much bandwidth I think language tends to have 09:26:31 probably up to 100 bits if you go really fast but I mean it as an order of magnitude 09:26:32 perhaps 09:26:41 probably less, actually 09:26:45 i mean 09:26:57 maybe not 09:26:58 but 09:27:08 My giraffe fucked the horse's bright pink wound scabbing up with green oil. 09:27:10 the way languages are structured, the phonological information is the important stuff 09:27:12 how many bits is thaat? 09:27:13 *that 09:27:15 and phonologies are entirely language internal 09:27:22 well, if you condider that a normal syllable rate for something like english or french is something like 6 syllables / second 09:27:24 (also, wow that sentence is disturbing) 09:27:25 i mean 09:27:27 i never even... notcied 09:27:40 so you only have to count the phonological content being shuttled around 09:27:47 which might be less than 50 bits per second 09:27:53 and from the size of the phonetic inventories of such languages you get something like 8 bits/syllable 09:27:59 uh no 09:28:02 ehird, that reminds me of a scene in David Cronenberg's "Crash" 09:28:05 you get more than 8 bits per syllable 09:28:09 BUT HOW MANY BITS IS IT 09:28:49 augur: well, for a CVC syllable, sure 09:28:49 english has around 40 sounds, with syllables upwards of 5 sounds each 09:28:49 but again this depends on how you count your dat 09:28:49 data 09:28:51 why can't the short version of "vowel" itself be a vowel? like, a? 09:28:51 but more complex syllables have a speed hit 09:28:53 CAC 09:29:07 it's something like 1.5x slower for CVC vs CV in French 09:29:17 CAC vs CA in French 09:29:24 english is timed differently but it probably comes down to something similar 09:29:26 anyway, I must go to sleep now 09:29:38 you'd have to do a proper study dude 09:29:40 thanks for the...topic talking? :O 09:29:41 and i dont have one 09:29:52 well, french is a bit easier to count 09:29:58 :( good night! (night for me) ) 09:30:01 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 09:30:09 ~20 consonants, ~16 vowels 09:30:48 of course the frequencies are skewed, but if you compute the bit contents of skewed inventories they don't actually lose much information 09:31:28 so that means you get around a byte of info per syllable, give or take 2 bits probably 09:32:04 -!- Asztal has quit (Success). 09:32:13 although something else I've read talked about 1 bit per letter 09:32:17 anyways, night 09:32:28 -!- madbr has quit ("Radiateur"). 09:51:01 -!- adam_d has joined. 10:08:28 boo 10:17:40 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 10:42:54 -!- adam_d_ has joined. 10:54:24 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 10:57:48 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 11:21:06 -!- oerjan has joined. 11:22:04 -!- kar8nga has joined. 11:27:22 -!- FireFly[DS] has joined. 11:31:10 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 11:34:16 -!- FireFly[DS] has quit (Nick collision from services.). 11:47:42 -!- oklopol has joined. 11:50:07 using an operating system through a text-to-speech thingy is hard 11:50:07 for blinders people 11:50:13 you're hard. 11:55:24 oklopol: :| 11:55:29 vertica vertica vertical line 11:59:09 selection deleted 11:59:41 greenity 11:59:44 oklopol: say something 12:00:27 should i!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 12:00:44 colloquy fails beautifully at telling the speech user about shit that happens! 12:12:24 -!- ehirdtalk has joined. 12:13:42 test 12:13:44 test 12:13:50 FAIL! 12:13:52 test 12:13:55 test 12:13:55 tetst 12:13:56 est 12:14:08 l'ouest 12:14:52 -!- ehirdtalk has quit (Remote closed the connection). 12:16:59 it'd be interesting to be blind 12:17:06 well not really 12:17:06 but from the computer aspect 12:17:56 clearly SCIENCE requires you to stab out your eyes 12:19:36 o 12:19:52 lament: you look pretty today 12:20:10 very opulent 12:21:10 -!- jix has joined. 12:22:25 oklopol: blindfold yourself and enable all the speech and keyboard control things 12:22:26 YOU MUST DO IT 12:22:57 _maybe_ in the other order might be preferred 12:24:05 well, yes 12:24:32 if i was a blind dude i'd have all sorts of awesome shorthand just for representing everything 12:25:03 "(spoken very quickly)blab esoteric oklopol" 12:25:06 key to say "tell me tell me" 12:25:16 "lament: you look pretty today. 1 minute ago." 12:25:22 "switch to window" 12:25:25 type! 12:25:27 or something 12:25:29 mainly the blab thing 12:25:32 it'd be like, sitting there 12:25:47 blab esoteric oklopol mail inbox compile done 12:36:41 -!- fax has joined. 12:40:02 -!- ivank` has quit (Client Quit). 12:40:10 -!- rodgort has joined. 12:50:24 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 13:12:32 -!- ais523 has joined. 13:13:04 hi ais523 13:13:14 hi 13:30:37 -!- MigoMipo has quit ("Page closed"). 13:30:46 hi 13:40:17 who was that a hi to? 13:45:18 nobody in particular 13:46:04 applescript://com.apple.scripteditor?action=new&script=say%20%22hi%22 13:46:08 i swear this actually works 13:48:17 there seems to be no way to get it to run on click though :P 13:48:49 I don't think this computer understands that protocol 13:50:07 ais523: i'm shocked 13:50:09 utterly shocked 13:50:51 yep, it doesn't 13:51:39 ais523: Clearly you must be running some weird-ass OS, like, like, HURD! 13:52:08 (It is 2013. Apple announce their porting of OS X to a modified HURD kernel) Oh god I regret everything I have said ever 13:52:17 even VxWorks doesn't recognise that protocol 13:52:26 so why would you expect less mainstream OSes to? 13:53:37 ais523: Not even Emacs supports it! 13:53:47 ouch 13:53:48 HURD, VxWorks and Emacs: the three main operating systems. 13:53:56 IN HELL 14:09:08 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:13:54 * ehird does something very stupid 14:16:03 * ehird doesn't actually do it due to stupidity 14:19:03 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:20:58 -!- Slereah has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:31:38 -!- adam_d has joined. 14:32:24 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:52:06 grabbernickle 15:03:32 i need to work on Ponzi Scheme sometime before someone else takes that name :( 15:10:15 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:35:55 sure is slow lately 15:37:03 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 15:38:59 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 16:08:19 hi ais523 16:08:56 hi 16:09:11 hi 16:09:20 hi fax too 16:10:39 hm how fast does n! grow? Faster than a^n ? 16:10:45 * AnMaster guesses so 16:10:54 yes 16:10:58 but slower than n^n 16:11:03 ais523, oh really? 16:11:07 yes, obviously 16:11:19 how is that obvious? 16:11:19 5! = 1*2*3*4*5 16:11:24 5^5 = 5*5*5*5*5 16:11:29 hm right 16:16:06 ais523, what about n^(n-1)? 16:16:28 that grows about as fast as (n+1)^n 16:16:37 just with a horizontal offset 16:16:42 so that'll go faster than n! too 16:16:46 ah hm 16:17:08 how comes it grows about as fast as (n+1)^n? 16:19:31 * AnMaster just cleaned his keyboard. Eww 16:32:19 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=472271 16:32:43 AnMaster: just substitute n-1 for n 16:43:55 -!- kar8nga has joined. 16:45:08 hm 16:46:25 ais523, what about n!+n! ? 16:46:45 should still be less than n^n right? 16:47:12 yes 16:47:15 that's just multiplying by 2 16:47:35 things like adding/subtracting one from n, and multiplying by /any/ constant, don't affect behaviour in the limit 16:49:49 ehird, hm 16:49:55 a bit funny bug report 16:50:05 thus why i linked it 16:50:11 yeah 16:51:04 so O gives equivalence classes ordered? 16:51:14 O(n!) < O(n^n) 16:51:28 can you these O's as numbers 16:51:50 Oh, ehird might be interested to know that YLE (our BBC) had a theremin for the public to play with on their altparty stand. 16:52:01 coo 16:53:17 It was hooked to an oscilloscope, theoretically to make it easier to see amplitudes and frequencies. 16:53:51 fizzie, awesome 16:54:00 Didn't see anyone who could actually play the thing though. 16:54:27 (oscilloscopes always are) 16:54:57 fax, was that a question or a statement? 16:55:04 yes 16:55:07 argh 16:55:19 what does that tell us? 16:55:20 fax, " can you these O's as numbers" didn't parse here 16:55:24 so no clue 16:55:44 possibly a missing word 16:55:51 or "these" should have been something else 17:06:27 -!- Pthing has joined. 17:15:24 oh god when did uriel become a proggit mod 17:16:03 Probably just recently, when spez asked for new mods. 17:16:40 ;_; 17:18:19 Is that somehow terribly bad? 17:19:23 well, uriel is quite seriously insane... 17:19:26 :P 17:19:28 but no, not a big deal 17:21:39 who is this uriel? 17:21:39 -!- Slereah has joined. 17:22:30 AnMaster: a libertarian free-market capitalist plan 9 highly acidic moron who lives in sweden 17:22:47 his website is among the few known to cause actual mental illness merely by reading text 17:23:07 cat-v.org may ring a bell. 17:24:44 "If elected moderator, I will edit LISP postings by randomly removing left and right parens" 17:24:52 now here's a man with initiative! 17:25:20 ehird, oh cat-v.org right 17:25:54 ehird, hasn't he been in here? Or was that someone else 17:26:15 No. 17:26:33 ehird, someone with a ready-made image for plan9? 17:26:44 mycroftiv/nescience. 17:26:47 ah yes 17:26:51 wait 17:26:52 no 17:26:56 ehird, his web site design was quite similar iirc 17:26:58 nescience/myndzi is different 17:26:58 just mycroftiv 17:27:01 so confusing 17:27:08 how is it confusing 17:27:25 AnMaster: it's the default werc style (plan 9 style website system used for suckless.org, maintained byy uriel) 17:27:26 *by 17:27:34 ah 17:28:10 suckless.org looks different though 17:28:23 but ok 17:28:44 ehird, it is a nice web site design anyway. And a nice colour scheme 17:28:50 yes, suckless use their own style 17:29:08 I meant cat-v design 17:29:12 the orange colour is displeasing 17:29:25 ehird, it differs on sub-pages 17:29:28 everything below the header is too minimalist to have really had any design put into it 17:29:29 like http://glenda.cat-v.org/ 17:29:34 yes. 17:29:48 that's just plan 9's colour scheme, changed sliughtly 17:29:49 slightly 17:29:50 everything below the header is too minimalist to have really had any design put into it <-- yeah that is the so great thing about it 17:29:52 9times uses it unchanged 17:29:54 (rio) 17:30:02 AnMaster: not really, the line length is too long 17:30:15 ehird, too wide browser window? 17:30:26 yep, now every other site has a horizontal scrollbar 17:30:39 ehird, at least it doesn't try to be *wider* than your browser. Ever 17:30:54 well ok 17:30:55 my safari window disagrees. 17:31:01 i have a horiz. scrollbar on a cat-v page 17:31:02 if you go smaller than the menu 17:31:10 admittedly it contains a large image 17:33:40 maybe I should join #plan9. Or maybe not 17:35:37 they're not the most helpful bunch. 17:36:01 hehe 17:41:04 hooray for possible progress on my os. 17:42:07 ehird, oh? 17:42:16 augur involvement. 17:42:31 oh my 17:42:37 not that anything's been done, but a few ideas have been batted and that's better than it's been for, like, monhts 17:42:38 *months 17:42:54 [said in T-Rex voice] LINGUISTICS IS STRANGELY APPLICABLE 17:43:38 XD 17:43:46 'Tis though! 17:43:49 how? 17:44:31 Some interesting stuff for the primary (at least until I think of something better) interaction quantum, the linguistic super-mini-CLI. 17:44:41 Which is hard to explain but so trivially easy as to seem boring, hey ho. 17:45:06 (A CLI that is both super and mini, that is.) 17:45:19 Also it's not really too much like a CLI. 17:45:23 But whatever. 17:46:12 Also: Apple are trying to de-emphasise the bezel around the display on the iMac! I predict that eventually, the entire front of the iMac will be a display with rounded corners. 17:46:24 That would be some engineering feat, also awesome. 17:46:45 (The pixels would go right up to the edge, presumably involving fractions of pixels.) 17:48:01 ehird, you mean, no border around the screen at all? 17:48:13 Yep! 17:48:19 doesn't sound impossible 17:48:29 Obviously the software expects a square display, but you're only losing like a few pixels at the corners that can just be ignored. 17:48:31 except for dust issues 17:48:40 AnMaster: It'd be covered with glass like current iMacs, presumably. 17:48:45 ehird, why not sharp corners? 17:48:56 Because they're ugly, and the iMac has always had rounded corners. 17:49:01 I'm just extrapolating from the current design. 17:49:02 ehird, well yes, you need a bit of glass on the sides too, could be very thin 17:49:03 Plus it'd be purty. 17:49:09 AnMaster: Yes. 17:49:19 The main engineering feat would be the pixels on the corner that get cut off. 17:49:27 You'd have to make non-square pixels. 17:49:33 hm true 17:49:34 Of quite a few variations in shape. 17:49:40 yes 17:49:53 The end effect would be sweet, though. 17:50:03 Caveat: No place to put camera, microphone, big Apple logo. 17:50:29 Well... you could embed the camera and microphone inside the glass somehow, and make them invisible... somehow... 17:50:29 ehird, hm using the bottom pixles? 17:50:29 for the logo 17:50:42 AnMaster: But that ruins the effect. :P 17:50:42 ehird, well yes 17:50:45 ehird, the footstand 17:50:51 Although it'd be amusing to display a bezel in the showroom... run some demos.... 17:50:51 *demos... 17:50:51 then... 17:50:51 *click* 17:50:53 redeign it so part of it is in front 17:50:55 as in 17:50:59 it fades into more desktop 17:51:03 not all hidden way behind 17:51:15 The logo thing was facetious; Apple design is obvious enough to not need a logo. 17:51:24 But the camera and microphone would present a real problem. 17:51:43 (All peanuts compared to the whole myriad-shapes-of-pixels-at-the-corners, of course.) 17:51:45 ehird, the camera yes. The mic less so 17:51:50 True. 17:52:08 The mic is easy enough with some clever tilting of the top or bottom part, I guess. 17:52:14 But the camera really needs to be on the front. 17:52:31 * AnMaster invokes treknobabel to make it work 17:52:42 Technobabble? 17:52:48 no 17:52:50 it was no typo 17:52:53 see tvtropes 17:53:28 It's Treknobabble, then. 17:53:34 yeah 17:53:42 missing b indeed 17:54:13 And a transposed le. 17:54:17 Anyway, the camera... hmm... 17:55:20 ehird, as I said. Redesign the foot 17:55:27 Wrong angle. 17:55:27 so there is part of it near the front 17:55:35 It's at the top of the display. 17:55:43 that solves logo at least 17:55:44 ehird, hm 17:55:55 ehird, what about some cleaver algorithms to move the thing? 17:56:03 (can't be done :P) 17:56:08 You could set up a fancy mirror thing with a camera on the top above the screen, but it'd be non-flat. 17:56:53 ehird, you know a mic and a speaker can be replaced kind of? 17:57:04 as in, they work the same basically 17:57:26 ehird, now design pixels that can be used backwards as a camera 17:57:52 problem solved. When camera is needed, some 32x32 pixles at the top are used 17:57:56 One issue with this design is, where the hell do you go from there? The whole thing the user sees in front, with the perfect curve, leading to thin, black glass on the sides, top and bottom, and then anodised aluminium with a few ports in one corner, the name of the computer, and a hole for the power cord. All suspended on a foot made out of the same material on the back that's literally just an elaborate curve, the simplest possible stand, with a hole to 17:57:57 power curve through. 17:57:57 I mean 17:57:59 or actually, much more 17:58:01 Two years later 17:58:13 "Apple releases revolutionary new iMac design; it's exactly the same but .3 inches thinner" 17:58:19 STOCKS: ↓↓↓ 17:58:20 :D 17:58:27 now I'll read everything you said while I wrote that 17:58:37 ehird, hm 17:58:57 Also, actually, you could embed the camera behind the display, somehow. 17:59:03 With very cleverly constructed LCDs... 17:59:07 anyway since by then we will have 1000 dpi, some 60x60 pixles wouldn't be a problem 17:59:11 But the quality would be poor if it's even possible. 17:59:13 or even more 18:00:17 "the simplest possible stand, with a hole to 18:00:17 power curve through." 18:00:18 what? 18:00:47 ehird, was something dropped there? 18:00:54 "let". 18:00:59 ah 18:01:01 *power cord 18:01:06 aha 18:02:44 ehird, anyway, what about my idea about double function pixels? 18:03:02 [17:58] ehird: Also, actually, you could embed the camera behind the display, somehow. 18:03:02 [17:59] ehird: With very cleverly constructed LCDs... 18:03:05 was in response to that. 18:03:10 i don't know if it's possible 18:04:22 ah 18:04:23 hm 18:04:41 ehird, drop the camera? 18:05:02 Not happening, not cool, not interesting engineering, not profitable. 18:12:49 AnMaster: LITTLE DID YOU KNOW I WORK AT APPLE'S DESIGN DIVISION 18:12:54 Thx for the assistance! 18:13:05 TIME TO GO COLLECT MY HUGE PILE OF MONEY 18:13:53 "I use a filesystem I wrote for MacFUSE for resizing images. If an image is located at /path/to/image.png then I can get a version resized to fit in 1024x768 with /transform/maxwidth-1024-maxheight-768/path/to/image.png. I was going to add other transformations but never got around to it, so all I can do right now is resize, either to fixed sizes or constraints." 18:13:53 Why god why 18:15:24 this is the future of OSes! 18:15:29 clearly, you don't run filter programs 18:15:32 you just use custom paths 18:15:58 /for/each/i/in/path/to/images/resize/to/x/y 18:15:59 ehird: Easier to get at from GUI programs. 18:16:06 ;_; 18:16:14 wait maybe i should've used the i. 18:16:22 /dev/env in DJGPP was surprisingly useful 18:16:24 oklopol: xD 18:16:41 anyway you could have a programming language integrated in your file system, reading a path executes a script 18:16:51 would be the natural extension to what you pasted there 18:18:40 but how do you nest!!!!!! 18:19:54 with twigs and leaves and things 18:20:38 so, who wants to play... 18:20:38 THE TINY LINUX KERNEL GAME 18:20:47 ehird: there's /../ ;) 18:20:56 the game is that you have to make the tiniest linux kernel that'll boot and run on some given hardware usefully. VMs count 18:22:14 /print/list/1/../2/../3/ 18:22:35 ehird: how do you define "linux" here? 18:22:56 kernel.org, any version! although if it doesn't have enough menuconfig to tinker with it's no fun 18:23:13 base system doesn't matter, just steal some shit from debian for the kernel to jump into 18:23:59 /dev/env in DJGPP was surprisingly useful <-- eh 18:24:32 AnMaster: /dev/env/NETHACKDIR/perm is equivalent to $NETHACKDIR/perm, but works everywhere, not just shells 18:25:00 ehird, I would use a simple busybox 18:25:06 for userland 18:25:08 doesn't matter 18:25:12 kernel size is all that counts 18:25:21 ehird, 2.0 kernel then 18:25:37 if it boots something you can poke around w/ a shell and grep and shit 18:25:38 it's game 18:25:38 ais523, heh 18:25:49 AnMaster: i think it should be only current kernel tbh 18:25:53 since it's more bloaty 18:25:59 ehird, so 2.4 and 2.6? 18:26:05 latest version 18:26:13 oh ok 18:26:18 8 KiB should be trivial, 4 KiB possible 18:26:21 anything below, more difficult 18:26:23 2.4 is still maintained though 18:26:28 sub 2 KiB, haaaaaaard 18:26:30 AnMaster: but less bloaty. 18:26:42 ehird, x86 or x86_64? 18:26:49 x86 obvs 18:27:05 about 2 MB is what I managed for x86_64 for something that is usable for me on my main desktop 18:27:13 most modules built in though 18:27:34 Mine is 2.6 MB without module support 18:27:35 someone posted on reddit that he uses a ~8 KiB kernel 18:27:39 because shrinking it is fun 18:27:40 ehird, lzma compression I guess? 18:27:44 who knows 18:27:49 anyway, that's for a desktop 18:28:00 so since we're just doing shells and grepping and all that regular shit 18:28:03 Did he say how large his modules are? 18:28:12 i don't think so 18:28:21 ehird, then most was in modules I assume 18:28:25 my strategy would be no modules, simplest fs possible 18:28:46 Obviously you can get straightforward reductions by just putting everything possible in M 18:28:53 no drivers for anything but a console, keyboard, drive and whatever else you need to boot 18:29:11 The module-loading code is probably fairly tiny so you can get away with including that 18:29:21 Yes, but modules count 18:29:28 anyway, then disable everything else, and compress it. 18:29:30 ehird, bbl food. will try this afterwards 18:29:33 since it sounds so fun 18:29:37 haha really? :D 18:29:43 can you compile linux on os x 18:31:18 targeting a vm will be the best bet 18:31:20 So what, latest stable or mainline? 18:31:24 least janky hardware 18:31:38 stable is what people actually use right? 18:31:38 stable. 18:31:49 I'm on a mainline rc :-P 18:31:55 But yeah, sure. 18:32:21 a whole 58 megs :( 18:32:31 100%[======================================>] 61 448 996 12.3M/s in 5.0s 18:32:57 35 minutes 18:32:58 fuck this internet 18:33:06 Deewiant: i hate you die 18:34:10 Deewiant: gimme ssh!! :-P 18:34:25 No :-P 18:34:33 wonder if you can upx compress the kernel 18:34:34 (no) 18:34:42 'make allnoconfig' gives a 708K bzImage 18:35:05 Yes, but can it actually do anything :p 18:35:06 *:P 18:35:22 It can boot an x86, presumably. 18:35:32 Well, try it in a VM? 18:35:40 I don't have VMs. 18:36:38 You don't have any VM software installed? 18:36:45 Well, boot up your machine with it, then :D 18:36:46 Correct. 18:36:50 And nah. 18:37:01 Anyway, 700 is waaaaaaaaaay too big 18:37:20 It was gzipped 18:37:34 How much ungzipped 18:37:47 But yeah, I'm kinda surprised that people can make smaller ones, then :-P 18:37:56 700 is so huge. 18:38:06 I don't know how to ungzip it 18:38:07 Deewiant: Maybe they use oooooooold ones 18:38:09 Also, um 18:38:09 "allnoconfig" also says no to the option to turn off a few of the different options... 18:38:11 gzip -d? 18:38:16 pikhq: XD 18:38:22 ehird: "not in gzip format" 18:38:28 bz ] 18:38:29 Not bzip2 either. 18:38:31 bz = bzip no? 18:38:31 ah 18:38:33 bzip1? 18:38:34 :P 18:38:36 :-P 18:38:41 pikhq: awesome 18:38:44 menuconfig said it was gzip, so anyway 18:38:58 ehird: There's an option to pull up a menu for removing various major features like "error strings". ;) 18:38:59 ehird: Of course the whole thing isn't gzipped, since it needs to have a BIOS-readable bit and such. 18:39:07 pikhq: Shweet 18:39:13 Deewiant: But you tried anyway :P 18:39:33 Also, there's one of the allocators that doesn't use much bzimage space. 18:39:42 :D 18:39:44 ehird: Since you asked me to, I was hoping gzip would be somehow clever enough. 18:40:06 Also, 2.6.31 and up can use lzma for the image. 18:40:31 Yep, I noticed. 18:40:33 And I though upx could compress a kernel. 18:40:37 Thought, even. 18:40:44 I'm going through menuconfig activating various "disable foo" options. 18:41:07 Ypu, upx supports vmlinuz compression. 18:41:23 Ypu 18:41:49 I wonder if it beats the kernel's own 18:41:50 Typically that's a typo for "you", not "yup". 18:42:10 Hmmh, I can't seem to be able to disable mouse support 18:42:15 XD 18:42:24 Wonder what the smallest fs is 18:42:26 Fat16? 18:42:31 I don't have an FS ATM. 18:42:36 :DD 18:42:39 Fat12's smaller. 18:42:46 Disabling initrd, yeah? 18:42:49 Nothing useless like ELF binary support, either. 18:42:57 a.out uber alles 18:42:58 I don't even have initrd on the kernel I use 18:43:00 you have to support some sort of binary... 18:43:03 Of course a.out isn't supported either 18:43:07 XD 18:43:08 ais523: No, I don't. :-P 18:43:18 Just execute RAW BINARIES YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH 18:43:21 ais523: Strictly speaking, it's optional. 18:43:23 ehird: Oh, I do have a /proc. 18:43:29 USELESS 18:43:30 Undisableable. 18:43:31 Just not very useful (in general). 18:43:34 !!! 18:43:37 Deewiant: use 2.4 man 18:43:45 ehird: I thought we agreed on a version. :-P 18:43:51 2.6.31.5. 18:43:54 well yeah but mandatory proc? 18:43:57 that's like the devil 18:44:21 I thought that was a disablable option. 18:45:29 Welp, now I'm down to 526 K 18:45:36 UPX it 18:45:42 (Without compressing it in kernel) 18:45:43 upx: arch/x86/boot/bzImage: CantPackException: kernel decompression failed 18:45:50 upx doesn't like the LZMA. 18:45:52 ↑ 18:46:02 upx is still used to the gzip-only compression. 18:46:04 ehird: It obviously unpacks it by itself first 18:46:16 Set the kernel to compress with gzip, then let upx have at it. 18:46:25 Yep, that's what I'm doing. 18:46:39 ehird: There's no option for lack of compression, only gzip/bzip2/LZMA 18:46:43 Eurgh 18:46:45 upx: arch/x86/boot/bzImage: CantPackException: unrecognized kernel architecture; use option '-f' to force packing 18:46:45 Ah 18:46:49 :D 18:46:49 -f it is 18:47:56 637952 -> 597310 93.63% bvmlinuz/386 bzImage 18:48:03 LZMA wins this round 18:48:09 Deewiant: Are you compiling with -Os 18:48:12 Yes 18:48:17 Just checking 18:48:30 Can you omit frame pointer? 18:48:37 I guess -Os does that 18:48:44 Are you telling upx --best? 18:49:02 No, --ultra-brute. 18:49:08 :D 18:49:21 Hmm. 18:49:29 Which, BTW, is much more annoying in Windows, where it tries like 72 options instead of the 10 or so it picks from on Linux. 18:49:30 I could've *sworn* one of the things upx does is lzma. 18:50:04 Deewiant: Hex edit that thing 18:50:10 Any trailing 0s or w/e? 18:50:27 Setup is 13676 bytes (padded to 13824 bytes). 18:50:35 So, yes, there's some padding there. 18:50:36 ? 18:50:36 100%[======================================>] 61 448 996 12.3M/s in 5.0s <-- wow cool 18:50:38 WANT 18:50:42 :-P 18:50:48 Deewiant, university network? 18:50:49 Deewiant: So chop it off 18:50:53 If it's trailing who cares 18:51:03 AnMaster: That's standard 100 Mb/s speed, no? 18:51:12 AnMaster: No, home. 18:51:21 Deewiant, wow 18:51:30 WANT WANT WANT WANT 18:51:31 Move somewhere more urban :P 18:51:38 Small price to pay 18:51:54 so 18:52:02 how do I crosscompile kernel to x86 18:52:07 I only have 64-bit systems around atm 18:52:08 Magiv 18:52:10 Magic 18:52:25 Deewiant, upx? it works on kernel? 18:52:35 Yes 18:52:36 Evidently 18:52:41 Oh yes, mine is 64-bit as well. 18:52:45 xD 18:52:49 fail 18:52:54 AnMaster: make subarch=i386 or something like that. 18:53:01 I should've built it in my chroot. 18:53:02 pikhq, for the config part 18:53:06 because allno isn't enough 18:53:09 I'll do that in a moment. 18:53:09 there is more you can do 18:53:15 by saying yes to "embedded" 18:53:22 * pikhq nods 18:53:23 He's doing it manually 18:53:27 Deewiant that is 18:53:39 Also, what does embedded do? Sounds cheating :( 18:53:47 ehird, allow you to turn off more options 18:53:51 I started out from allnoconfig. 18:53:52 Ha 18:53:53 like swap support iirc 18:53:53 cool 18:54:00 ehird: Turns off "error messages", swap support, etc. 18:54:01 And /proc? 18:54:07 I think that's in there. 18:54:19 Though if it's not, then that just means /proc is a couple lines of code. :P 18:54:53 Eh? 18:57:19 Oh right, I forgot about embedded *facepalm* 18:57:23 :D 18:57:35 Goodbye, keyboard and mouse 18:57:37 You have served me well 18:57:39 No 18:57:40 Keyboard, man 18:57:44 I set out rules 18:57:57 You gotta boot up to a console and execute a shell with a keyboard, dood 18:57:58 :P 18:58:05 (Think embedded + 32-bit + compression fun should reach 200 KiB.) 18:58:06 I'm just seeing how big a "can't do squat" kernel is 18:58:12 Ah 18:58:16 AnMaster: make subarch=i386 or something like that. <-- no :( 18:58:19 Goodbye, block layer 18:58:23 XD 18:58:25 Goodbye, /proc and sysfs 18:58:32 Goodbye, kernel 18:59:07 339K 18:59:11 Now to 32-bittify it 18:59:28 Compression? 18:59:46 That was LZMA 19:00:04 Wonder how ... wossname does 19:00:08 upx 19:00:15 Goodbye, x86 support 19:00:19 ... 19:00:21 Deewiant 19:00:24 it has to actually boot 19:00:36 What part of "can't do squat" do you not understand? 19:00:41 XD 19:01:26 pikhq, linux32 in front works it seems 19:03:01 goodkye epoll 19:03:01 Mmm. 19:03:09 goodbye* 19:03:27 Found some more options that embedded opened: I think 334K is just about the smallest 64-bit one possible 19:03:48 Should be a decent amount smaller for 32-bit. 19:03:54 Halving pointers helps. ;) 19:03:55 Yes, since there I can disable x86. 19:04:04 Deewiant, wait what 19:04:05 ... Disable x86??? 19:04:10 And HPET, and VM86, etc. 19:04:15 pikhq: "Generic X86 support" =n 19:04:22 Deewiant, eh hpet can be disabled on 64-bit 19:04:23 On x86-64 that wasn't an option. 19:04:31 Ah. 19:04:35 Deewiant, that is because generic x86 isn't supported 19:04:38 on 64-bit 19:04:45 AnMaster: The option wasn't in the same place, at least. 19:04:46 it is generic x86-64 support then 19:05:11 -!- Sgeo has joined. 19:06:05 And HPET, and VM86, etc. 19:06:11 I found some more stuff, so 334K can be beaten; won't do that now, though, working on 32-bit. 19:06:14 vm86 is not supported on 64-bit 19:06:27 hpet should be possible to turn off for both 19:06:35 there are plenty of early 64-bit systems without hpet 19:06:39 There wasn't an HPET option in the same place. 19:06:46 That's all I'm saying. 19:07:47 280K for a 386 19:08:15 I bet I can make it less 19:08:20 by a few bytes 19:08:25 I want exact byte size 19:08:47 285936 19:09:39 Deewiant, is this "can't do a squat" or ehird's challenge? 19:09:46 The former. 19:09:50 * AnMaster is only doing ehird's challenge 19:09:54 not interested in the other 19:10:02 295504 for a Core 2. 19:11:08 I have no way of testing whether my thing can actually do anything, so I can't really give reliable answers to ehird's challenge. 19:11:15 hm 19:11:27 ehird, ok with initramfs instead of proper disk support? 19:11:38 Deewiant, qemu 19:11:58 I don't have any VM-thing installed and can't be bothered to install one and figure it out 19:12:39 mhm 19:13:28 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 19:13:28 Found another option to disable, got 285536 (279 K) for a 386. 19:13:38 I think I'm done here. 19:13:49 okay, I need people to bugtest my heavy hack of Ryan Kusnery's DOS Befunge93 interpreter 19:13:53 http://board.flatassembler.net/download.php?id=4623 19:14:01 Did you run it on mycology? 19:14:04 seems to work for me, but more eyes is best 19:14:18 no, I suspect that won't run due to it using 128*128 by default (which I didn't change) 19:14:43 Mycology's first 80x25 are valid Befunge-93, you can just cut that bit out for interpreters that won't accept bigger files 19:15:02 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:15:25 but what files exactly? aren't there a few I need to run on? 19:15:29 back 19:16:01 BTW, Ryan's webpage is pretty much AWOL now, and I fixed three bugs (and shrank it a lot) 19:16:10 sanity.bf, first 80x25 of mycology.b98, mycorand.bf, mycouser.b98 19:16:12 original TASM version: 1280 bytes, my hacked FASM version: 1021 bytes 19:16:53 kernel download done 19:18:39 er, what is sanity.bf supposed to do exactly?? 19:18:47 loop infinitely?? crash gracefully?? 19:18:47 There's a readme, you know. 19:19:01 None of them should infloop or crash. :-P 19:19:25 "should reflect" ... what exactly does that mean? 19:19:45 The IP should reverse direction and then continue on its way. 19:19:45 go opposite direction? 19:19:57 really? and that's standard practice?? 19:20:02 I've never heard of anyone relying on that 19:20:05 What is? 19:20:17 reference C version does that? (lemme check) 19:21:41 Also, it's not so much "standard practice" as it is "dictated by the Funge-98 standard", which is what Mycology is testing ;-) 19:21:57 The -93 standard might be silent about it, I'm not sure. 19:21:59 So just to confirm 19:22:05 make whateverconfig 19:22:05 make 19:22:08 the BEF-2.2.1.ZIP version (bef.c) seems to print it okay but hangs 19:22:11 is it,right? 19:22:13 *it, right 19:22:36 So it probably just ignores invalid commands. 19:22:49 I guess you can relax that requirement, then. 19:22:59 ehird: I do 'make bzImage' 19:23:05 What does that achieve 19:23:07 it will whine about invalid commands unless -q is specified, though 19:23:13 (bef.c was updated in 2004) 19:23:20 ehird: I don't know, it's just what I do. 19:23:23 compresses with Bzip2 19:23:24 Heh 19:23:29 smaller kernel 19:23:34 Nope, that's not what it does. 19:23:36 What about those noconfig, embedded things 19:23:44 Can I still use the fancy GUIs? 19:23:55 then what's it do? 19:23:55 The compression is specified in the .config, not by using 'bzImage'. 19:24:01 It builds the kernel image. 19:24:11 I don't know if it's any different from plain 'make'. 19:24:19 ehird: I started with allnoconfig and then used menuconfig. 19:24:29 Howdothembedded? 19:24:37 ah, I see what bef.c does now ... it ignores invalid instructions but your "intentionally inValid" string has a "v" which makes it loop endlessly downwards :-P 19:25:01 If it didn't have a v, it'd endlessly print the string. :-P 19:25:24 (Since it'd go back to the start.) 19:25:26 Deewiant: do you do embedded in menuconfig? 19:25:36 Yes, it's a perfectly normal option. 19:25:47 Can't remember where, may have been "general setup". 19:26:10 Wonder if this compiles with Apple's gcc 4.0 19:26:12 Guess we'll see 19:26:16 *4.0.1 19:26:33 fdimage - Create 1.4MB boot floppy image (arch/x86/boot/fdimage) 19:26:40 Wonder where it gets the root FS from 19:27:20 mycorand seems to work 19:27:27 * ehird tries gconfig 19:27:52 Friendly! 19:27:57 Doesn't look like a too bad UI. 19:28:13 * ehird show all options 19:28:16 I regret that 19:28:47 Gives crazy things like GENERIC_TIME 19:28:52 With no description 19:29:04 AnMaster: What's your record at; Deewiant: What's your record at 19:29:14 2009-10-24 21:13:28 ( Deewiant) Found another option to disable, got 285536 (279 K) for a 386. 19:29:16 (First is "boots to shell w/ kb", second is "fails to do anything at aa ll") 19:29:18 *at all 19:29:20 Deewiant: 32-bit, then. 19:29:26 Yes, 32-bit. 19:29:33 Or more like 16-bit. :-P 19:29:46 Oh, good point, I'll disable X86_32. 19:29:47 (Did you look at the SCARY_UPPERCASE_OPTIONS?) 19:30:05 I didn't look in the .config after that, if that's what you mean. 19:30:33 * ehird tries menuconfig 19:30:39 Right, it hides that stuff 19:31:03 "Enable loadable module support (NEW)" 19:31:04 NEW AND SCARY 19:31:32 Disabling the block layer won't help me run a shell, that's for sure 19:31:40 :-) 19:31:58 Do you actually need any I/O schedulers, or will it just do some dumbfuck retarded thing if you don't enable any? :D 19:32:43 * ehird wonders if a tickless system would result in less code 19:32:46 I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I AM DOING 19:33:05 There's a default scheduler of some kind if you disable them all. 19:33:26 Yep, the no-op scheduler! 19:34:07 That's the one. 19:34:13 Deewiant: Which gave best compression for you, LZMA and no UPX? 19:35:15 Yep. 19:35:25 "Support for paging of anonymous memory (swap)" 19:35:33 They make it sound all so exciting and revolutionary. 19:35:36 Every single boring option. 19:35:41 :-D 19:36:03 IPC? Now what would I want IPC for 19:36:23 "Select kernel log buffer size as power of two" 19:36:32 WONDER IF THAT GOES INTO THE BINARY 19:36:44 (No) 19:37:04 "remove sysfs features which" what is this sysfs 19:37:15 Namespaces support? srsly?! 19:37:24 Okay how the fuck do you uncheck an option 19:37:34 In menuconfig, 'n' 19:38:06 That just brings up the gtk search-in-this-list thingy 19:38:21 So much for easy-to-use GUIs 19:38:59 Deewiant: nope, hangs on B93 part of mycology 19:39:01 oh well, whatever 19:39:11 your testsuite is maybe a little too "hardcore" ;-) 19:39:24 Does the reference impl? 19:39:28 all my examples I tried seem to work, though, so I guess until I figure out what exactly, it's "good enough" 19:39:30 (It shouldn't) 19:39:46 reference says "0 1" 19:39:50 HOW DO YOU DISABLE THIS NAMESPACES SUPPORT ARGH 19:40:04 more precisely, "0 1 " 19:40:05 Hmm, that sucks 19:40:29 That sucks quite a bit, actually; it should definitely say "0 1 2 ", at least :-P 19:40:41 mmm, pumpkin-flavor ice cream 19:41:11 Deewiant: Oh, oh, but pressing y on an item works, and then pops up the find thingy anyway 19:41:14 The only instructions hit by the time you get to "0 1 2" are 0#>. 1v<2 19:41:20 Joy! And so does n! 19:41:23 INTUITIVE 19:41:46 Seems you just can't turn off that lovable namespace support 19:41:49 I'll do it in .config 19:42:30 Embedded: "Only use this if you really know what you are doing." 19:42:36 ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha 19:42:56 Legacy 16-bit UID syscall wrappers, eh? Wonder if going 32-bit only + that would be smaller than 16-bit. (Nah?) 19:43:07 Uhh 19:43:11 Can Linux even boot a 16-bit x86 19:43:16 That was the last option I disabled to get to 279K instead of 280K. 19:44:29 a word that English needs: hypersubtext 19:44:47 ehird, no, Linux needs a 386+ ... but ELKS can run on 8088/8086 (never tried) 19:44:49 It's where you add extra meaning to some text by making words into links 19:44:53 SimonRC: It really doesn't 19:45:07 The reason for those 16-bit syscall wrappers is, IIRC, for the sake of DOSemu. 19:45:08 ehird, 32-bit code is almost always larger than 16-bit 19:45:12 Encyclopedia Dramatica does it a fair bit 19:45:16 DOSEMU needs V86 mode 19:45:22 Rugxulo: No shit, but I don't need 16-bit code if I can't boot into it :P 19:45:44 gconfig is worthless, menuconfig time 19:45:46 dunno, BIOS somewhere maybe?? 19:46:31 Ah, namespaces support is built-in 19:46:44 Erm, as in 19:46:47 Not disableable 19:46:59 Unless you check embedded! Yay! 19:47:00 Deewiant: Which gave best compression for you, LZMA and no UPX? 19:47:05 UPX supports LZMA too 19:47:08 Yes 19:47:10 It's not as good 19:47:28 maybe 'cause it's old LZMA 4.43 19:47:33 dunno 19:47:37 │ This option is provided for the case where no hotplug or uevent │ 19:47:39 │ capabilities is wanted by the kernel. You should only consider │ 19:47:39 │ disabling this option for embedded systems that do not use modules, a │ 19:47:39 │ dynamic /dev tree, or dynamic device discovery. Just say Y. │ 19:47:41 "Just say N" 19:47:47 BTW, so nobody here has ever heard of or tried pumpkin-flavored ice cream???? o_O 19:47:51 No 19:48:00 printk? Who the fuck wants printk? 19:48:08 Fags, that's who. 19:48:09 FAGS want printk. 19:48:09 not you, obviously 19:48:15 heh, devs obviously 19:48:20 PC SPEAKER?! 19:48:22 Pah! 19:48:25 I spit on PC speakers! 19:48:28 heh 19:48:39 │ Disabling this option will cause the kernel to be built without │ 19:48:39 spitting on one makes the same sound as its music ;-) 19:48:39 │ support for "fast userspace mutexes". The resulting kernel may not │ 19:48:39 │ run glibc-based applications correctly. │ 19:48:42 Who cares about glibc? 19:48:47 But I wonder if it'll make it smaller. 19:48:50 BTW, PC speaker can play analog samples, too 19:48:51 PROBABLY 19:48:51 disabled 19:48:51 AnMaster: What's your record at; Deewiant: What's your record at <-- just back again 19:48:56 and not done yet 19:48:59 epoll 19:49:00 more like 19:49:01 fagpoll 19:49:02 uh, everything uses glibc ... 19:49:10 My DOBELA interpreter doesn't 19:49:14 Shared memory? Bulllllllllshit 19:49:14 There's uclibx. 19:49:16 Rugxulo: Busybox doesn't 19:49:18 BTW, PC speaker can play analog samples, too <-- yes. In ALSA 19:49:22 sounds like shit 19:49:23 I tried it 19:49:25 AND BUSYBOX IS ALL THAT MATTERS 19:49:26 ehird, I mean I suspect you'll want it 19:49:28 I thought busybox used a libc? 19:49:30 uh? heh 19:49:30 And some other things that don't use libc don't, either. 19:49:43 I meant most big apps that most people use 19:49:46 (though absolutely nothing glibc-specific) 19:49:46 Rugxulo: We're competing for smallest kernel that can boot a shell to an x86 with a console, keyboard, 19:49:51 and busybox shell 19:49:53 and utilities 19:49:58 busybox uses ulibc, I think; possibly statically linked 19:50:04 ehird, try FreeDOS ;-) 19:50:07 45k UPX'd 19:50:08 Things shall get GNARLY 19:50:11 shell is 66k UPX'd 19:50:12 Rugxulo: It's a game, you see. 19:50:12 A game. 19:50:14 you think possibly you could have a busybox shell without utilities ;-) 19:50:16 ais523: busybox uses whatever libc you want to link it with. 19:50:22 ehird, I *completely* understand 19:50:34 I just spent the last two days whittling down a 1213-byte .COM to 1021 bytes ;-) 19:50:38 ehird, any idea where I can find an a.out compiler/linker 19:50:40 for the user land 19:50:41 VM event counters? laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame 19:50:45 to get it under 1KiB? 19:50:48 AnMaster: Compile one 19:50:49 AnMaster: Grab gcc-3 or gcc-2. 19:50:53 pikhq, ah 19:51:00 pikhq, 3.4? 19:51:00 old versions of gcc 19:51:01 Maybe even gcc 4.0. 19:51:05 "Strip assembler-generated symbols during link" FUCK YES 19:51:09 I know it's been removed in the latest version. 19:51:10 IIRC they deprecated a.out recently 19:51:15 I have gcc 4.0.1 19:51:17 Which can still do it, I think 19:51:20 Yaaaaaaaay 19:51:26 ehird: Still need to build a new gcc. 19:51:30 "Enable doublefault exception handler" no way 19:51:37 Disable heap randomisation? 19:51:39 (it's a different target) 19:51:40 That probably takes up code, doesn't it 19:51:44 DOESN'T IT 19:51:48 ehird: Yes. 19:51:52 bwahahaha 19:51:55 so crazy it's funny 19:51:59 SLAB, SLUB or SLOB. SLOB is "Simple Allocator". 19:52:02 I bet it's the smallest. 19:52:07 MORE SPACE EFFICIENT 19:52:07 SLOB is the smallest. 19:52:09 DRASTICALLY SIMPLER 19:52:11 DEPENDS ON EMBEDDED 19:52:13 yes 19:52:20 Oh, I missed that one. 19:52:29 ehird, BasicLinux is pretty small, so is tomsrtbt or BlueFlops 19:52:29 Can you -fomit-frame-pointer on the kernel? :P 19:52:36 Rugxulo: Dude, those are whole meg floppies 19:52:41 We're going for 200 KiB range to start with 19:52:42 ehird: Yes, there's a config option for that. 19:52:44 Holy grail is under 100 KiB 19:52:48 I meant the kernel only 19:52:50 should be small-ish 19:52:55 BTW, what version are you trying, 2.6? 19:53:00 The latest 19:53:01 That's the fun 19:53:03 ah 19:53:12 It's so bloated and cute 19:53:20 (Smash TV): "Good luck, you'll need it!" 19:53:28 heh, even Linus called it bloated 19:53:30 Do you think the dynamic ticks / tickless system will have less code? 19:53:35 Doesn't have to handle... ticks... does it?! 19:53:43 Of course it has to handle a bunch of other shit too I guess :P 19:53:48 :-P 19:53:52 I'll try it in a moment 19:54:01 277K with SLOB instead of SLAB. 19:54:09 (283232) 19:54:20 │ Calculate simpler /proc//wchan values. If this option │ 19:54:21 │ is disabled then wchan values will recurse back to the │ 19:54:21 │ caller function. This provides more accurate wchan values, │ 19:54:22 │ at the expense of slightly more scheduling overhead. │ 19:54:23 Simpler, ey 19:54:26 Oh wait 19:54:28 /proc 19:54:30 IRRRRRRRRRR-ELEVANT 19:54:53 Pentium Pro? PENTIUM FUCKING PRO? 19:54:53 I'm not a rich asshole 19:54:53 I'm a 386 man 19:54:53 And that's all I am 19:55:13 I wonder if Generic x86 support's optimisations will decrease code size 19:55:32 │ Enabled scanning of DMI to identify machine quirks. Say Y │ 19:55:32 │ here unless you have verified that your setup is not │ 19:55:32 │ affected by entries in the DMI blacklist. Required by PNP │ 19:55:33 │ BIOS code. │ 19:55:34 ehird: Sorry, tickless adds about 2K. 19:55:35 Dare I disable it 19:55:39 DARE I DISABLE IT 19:55:56 Yes I dare 19:56:19 No forced preemption, last code 19:56:20 *less 19:56:21 http://www.engadget.com/2009/10/23/linus-torvalds-gives-windows-7-a-big-thumbs-up/ 19:56:21 ehird: Generic X86 adds about 9K. 19:56:23 Man this will be slow as shit 19:56:27 Rugxulo: Old 19:56:47 Rugxulo: it *is* Torvalds 19:56:49 │ This option is required by programs like DOSEMU to run 16-bit legacy │ 19:56:50 │ code on X86 processors. It also may be needed by software like │ 19:56:50 │ XFree86 to initialize some video cards via BIOS. Disabling this │ 19:56:51 │ option saves about 6k. │ 19:56:52 SUPREME BULLSHIT 19:56:57 I wasn't certain when I say it before 19:57:02 *saw 19:57:15 Have you got high memory support on, Deewiant? 19:57:16 WHO 19:57:16 NEEDS 19:57:17 IT 19:57:22 Of course not. 19:57:29 │ This is the portion of low virtual memory which should be protected │ 19:57:29 │ from userspace allocation. Keeping a user from writing to low pages │ 19:57:29 │ can help reduce the impact of kernel NULL pointer bugs. │ 19:57:32 Wonder if that affects the binary 19:57:36 CONFIG_DEFAULT_MMAP_MIN_ADDR 19:57:39 I mean, size 19:57:39 100Hz instead of 250 -> 282960 19:57:47 Is that l ower 19:57:49 *lower 19:57:51 Yes. 19:57:56 Is there anything below 100Hz 19:57:59 No. 19:58:06 HACK IT IN 19:58:13 0Hz!! 19:58:19 │ │ (0x1000000) Physical address where the kernel is loaded (NEW) │ │ 19:58:20 │ │ (0x1000000) Alignment value to which kernel should be aligned │ │ 19:58:20 kerching? 19:58:27 Even 1000Hz was smaller than 250Hz, actually 19:58:32 :D 19:58:32 Kerching? 19:58:37 As in, relevant? 19:58:41 I have them at 0 and 0x10000 19:58:50 Does that change the actual binary 19:58:51 size 19:58:54 Beats me 19:59:03 :D 19:59:22 Evidently 0xffff also works for the latter... will see if that changes anything 19:59:47 * ehird enables a.out support, I'll have to crosscompile the binaries anyway 20:00:04 Nope, #error "Invalid value for CONFIG_PHYSICAL_ALIGN" 20:00:53 Even at 0x2000 it's still 282960. 20:01:00 how big is the generic kernel? 20:01:07 Think it has to be sizeof(void*)-aligned. 20:01:08 "The generic kernel"? 20:01:09 and why not try something like Minix instead? (probably smaller) 20:01:18 generic as in "everything included" 20:01:22 Rugxulo: Missing the point FTW. 20:01:23 pikhq: It didn't accept 0x1000 or anything smaller starting with 0x1 20:01:29 Deewiant: Hmm. 20:01:56 I'm not saying this isn't a worthy exercise, but Minix is probably more "minimal" 20:01:58 0x2000 was the smallest power of two it accepted 20:02:03 hrm 323264 20:02:04 why 20:02:09 │ CONFIG_PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD: │ 20:02:09 │ │ 20:02:09 │ Say yes to avoid building firmware. Firmware is usually shipped │ 20:02:10 What why 20:02:12 │ with the driver, and only when updating the firmware a rebuild │ 20:02:12 Deewiant, with or without upx? 20:02:15 │ should be made. │ 20:02:17 Without. 20:02:18 CONFIG_PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD 20:02:20 "If unsure say Y" 20:02:22 Sounds good anyway 20:02:24 * ehird enables block devices SHOCK HORROR 20:02:26 Hmm... floppy disk, RAM block, or VeryOldHardDisk. 20:02:28 Probably RAM block is the simplest, but then everything has to fit into the bootsector 20:02:31 NOT PRACTICAL 20:02:32 Although that would be awesome 20:02:33 ehird: Since you don't have extra firmware I don't think that makes a difference 20:02:36 whoa 20:02:38 flood 20:02:39 Deewiant, ah your was minimal unusable right? 20:02:40 Deewiant: does it make it smaller? 20:02:44 AnMaster: Yep 20:02:46 right 20:02:50 The alignment 20:02:51 thing 20:03:14 ehird: 2009-10-24 22:00:52 ( Deewiant) Even at 0x2000 it's still 282960. 20:03:26 Right, just confirming 20:03:34 I wonder whether Very old hard disk or Normal floppy disk will be smaller 20:03:53 Rugxulo: I'm building an allyesconfig for you 20:04:16 :-) 20:04:16 :D 20:04:22 I think *BSD is typically like 8 MB for generic 20:04:29 Does that support all architectures, Deewiant? 20:04:30 This'll be 32-bit 20:04:35 KERNELGLOT 20:04:35 ehird: I doubt it? 20:04:38 (OpenBSD is a little smaller due to no modules or compatibility or whatever, I think) 20:04:44 I'm not sure what flavour of x86 it selects anyway 20:04:54 Probably the default, which is that PentiumPro or whatever 20:04:57 This sort of stuff has some sorta practical usage! http://stali.suckless.org/ 20:05:05 Deewiant: Pfft, Core2 4eva 20:05:24 Rugxulo: This won't have any modules, of course 20:05:32 Since everything'll be built-in. :-P 20:05:40 ehird, GCC doesn't really do much beyond PPro (CMOV..) 20:05:45 I should've timed the build... 20:05:48 I'm pretty sure that's what it means 20:05:52 nah, that's okay 20:05:56 So guys, very old hard disk or floppy 20:06:01 one guy told me it took him 30 mins. to rebuild his FreeBSD kernel 20:06:03 I'm pretty sure it knows about some instruction timings / whatever 20:06:14 ehird, no floppy, no disk for me 20:06:16 floppy 20:06:22 ehird, I'm going for initramfs instead 20:06:23 AnMaster: Wherefore art thou busybox 20:06:25 with a single binary 20:06:25 E.g. on x86 processor X instruction I is preferable to J, but not on processor Y. 20:06:26 AnMaster: LOL 20:06:29 Deewiant, good :-) 20:06:30 AnMaster: That'll bloat the shit out of it 20:06:38 ehird, I suspect it will be smaller 20:06:46 Rugxulo: Why floppy, why not disk 20:06:58 Deewiant, yes, but "pentiumpro" is just a synonym for "i686" anyways (and "generic", last I checked) 20:07:03 It explicitly states the disk thing is for very old disks and is unfancy 20:07:28 Rugxulo: Sure, but "yonah" and "core2" and whatever aren't, so it does do something with that info. :-P 20:07:47 barely 20:07:48 ehird: There is a third option: try both! 20:07:57 Lazy 20:08:03 Rugxulo: It implies various SSE things, of course. 20:08:15 yes, but GCC isn't too great at that (although at least 4.3.2+ tries ...) 20:08:25 Not sure if the kernel benefits from that at all unless you build in the various crypto algos 20:08:26 very very weakly, but it does try 20:08:29 heh 20:08:34 Hmm 20:08:36 My thteory 20:08:37 theory 20:08:41 The floppy disk thing is common 20:08:41 More bloat 20:08:48 So old creaky minimal disk = less bloat 20:08:53 besides, there is no Core1 tuning at all, I think you have to use prescott (or maybe nocona) 20:08:56 Deewiant, you can't use SSE in kernel sanely iirc 20:09:00 not that most people have that (me either) 20:09:07 Core = netburst 20:09:11 Netburst = Pentium4 20:09:21 no, Core 1 was based upon Pentium-M 20:09:25 which was mobile P3 w/ SSE2 20:09:28 AnMaster: Why not? 20:09:30 lot less energy needed 20:09:30 Deewiant, lzma? 20:09:36 Yes... 20:09:42 hrrm 20:09:49 Rugxulo: You're right 20:09:50 P6 20:09:54 Deewiant, 329824 20:09:54 Core 1 didn't support 64-bit, though 20:09:59 is smallest I get with block layer 20:10:15 generic HID support = keyboard, right? 20:10:19 ehird, no 20:10:25 Oh. 20:10:25 ehird, generic hid is USB stuff 20:10:28 you don't want that 20:10:30 Ew, USB :P 20:10:31 BLOAT 20:10:44 heh, it'll be a miracle if this thing runs at all ;-) 20:10:45 ehird, just enable AT keyboard under input devices 20:10:58 Ah, didn't notice that 20:11:25 AnMaster: Are you sure an XT keyboard wouldn't be less bloated :-) 20:11:38 ehird, anything that can emulate it? 20:11:39 This game is basically "Find the bits of Linux everyone else has forgotten about" 20:11:54 ehird, huh? 20:11:55 AnMaster: It's just a parallel port board, ask the guys at geekhack.org to find one, they'll hook you up an ebay link in a pinch :P 20:12:05 AnMaster: The more popular bits of Linux are "improved" more 20:12:08 = more blaot 20:12:10 *bloat 20:12:13 heh 20:12:17 We're digging to find stuff retained from the olden days 20:12:24 ehird, anyway 329824 for me. Not tested 20:12:26 The generic input layer can't be removed, though 20:12:40 Where do you disable sysfs, I wonder 20:12:47 ehird, file systems 20:12:48 Oh, wtf, I have virtual terminal support 20:12:50 POSIX FILE LOCKING API? BULLSHIT 20:12:51 What is this crap!! 20:12:51 pseudo ones 20:12:54 Away with it 20:12:55 Deewiant: :D 20:13:02 Deewiant, needed for actual terminal 20:13:11 Ya think? 20:13:15 yeah 20:13:22 ext2, ext3, ext4, murderfs oops I mean reiserfs 20:13:23 but then you aren't doing ehird's 20:13:29 JFS, XFS... all bloated piles of shit 20:13:32 ok, DOS/FAT/NT It is 20:13:34 ^______^ 20:13:37 ehird, nah, ramfs 20:13:39 for me 20:13:46 wait, forgot to enable any fs 20:13:47 Bet I beat you eventually 20:13:58 │ This option will enlarge your kernel by about 7 KB. If unsure, │ 20:13:59 │ answer Y. This will only work if you said Y to "DOS FAT fs support" │ 20:13:59 │ as well. To compile this as a module, choose M here: the module will │ 20:13:59 │ be called msdos. │ 20:14:05 Can't I just have FAT12 :( 20:14:05 Ha, 255232. 20:14:06 250K. 20:14:20 (VTs are bloated! That was 10%) 20:14:23 sorry 20:14:26 romfs I meant 20:14:27 not ramfs 20:14:35 XD 20:14:38 "It's totally cool" — CONFIG_PROC_FS 20:14:47 Cool and GIGANTIC 20:15:01 allyesconfig is still building happily 20:15:09 what GCC, BTW? 20:15:18 4.4.1 20:15:26 ah, slow bastard ;-) 20:15:33 AnMaster: Make sure to enable US-ASCII in Native language support 20:15:34 in filesystems 20:15:44 I'm pretty sure you need to have at least one there 20:15:46 Root device is (252, 0) 20:15:46 Setup is 11980 bytes (padded to 12288 bytes). 20:15:46 System is 312 kB 20:15:46 CRC cc56d59b 20:15:46 Kernel: arch/x86/boot/bzImage is ready (#4) 20:15:46 arvid@dragon ~/src/kernel/linux-2.6.31.5 $ du -b arch/x86/boot/bzImage 20:15:48 but I admire you using it (most Linuxes don't even have beyond 4.3.3 yet) 20:15:48 331280 arch/x86/boot/bzImage 20:15:51 ehird, no need 20:15:55 ehird, unless you are doing FAT 20:15:59 although 4.4.2 is out ;-)) 20:15:59 Ah 20:16:06 Hmm 20:16:10 Rugxulo: Arch Linux's package. 20:16:11 AnMaster: Why, is ASCII built-in? It's an option 20:16:15 ehh 20:16:18 eh 20:16:20 what 20:16:21 I'll go with FAT disks for now 20:16:23 can always change it 20:16:30 FAT == BLOAT !!! 20:16:33 OMG 20:16:34 FAT == FAT 20:16:35 ehird, it isn't built in. Kernel uses unicode for FSes internally 20:16:41 UNICODE? 20:16:44 OMG BLOAT HUGE 20:16:46 lol 20:16:48 yup 20:16:49 CODE LOTS OF CODE KILL 20:16:52 ehird, pretty sure yes 20:17:08 ehird, probably it doesn't actually care 20:17:09 that's nothing, Win7 needs 16 GB of space (and twice that if you use XP Mode) 20:17:18 to it, it is just "not \0, not /" 20:17:23 │ │ [*] Early printk (NEW) │ │ 20:17:24 Of course, Win7 is more than just a kernel. 20:17:29 How does that work, I don't even have printk 20:17:37 ehird, he 20:17:44 He what?!?!?! 20:17:46 ehird, maybe untested paths 20:17:48 yeah, it lets 5-year-old girls make slideshows with copyrighted songs 20:17:49 ehird, "heh" 20:17:54 │ │ [ ] Use 4Kb for kernel stacks instead of 8Kb │ │ 20:17:57 Deewiant: Reduces size? 20:18:05 │ This option allows trapping of rare doublefault exceptions that │ 20:18:06 │ would otherwise cause a system to silently reboot. Disabling this │ 20:18:06 │ option saves about 4k and might cause you much additional grey │ 20:18:06 │ hair. │ 20:18:08 DIE 20:18:13 Oh, good find. 20:18:15 No port-IO delay 20:18:18 Disable that 20:18:19 It's nearby 20:18:22 I did. 20:18:33 │ │ [ ] Allow gcc to uninline functions marked 'inline' │ │ 20:18:37 Yep. 20:18:39 Deewiant: Might that shrink it? 20:18:40 ehird, yes 20:18:42 Enabling it 20:18:43 It might. 20:18:43 Right 20:18:46 Don't know if it does. 20:18:57 it might, didn't test without it 20:18:58 Wow, I'm done. 20:19:01 Uh, how do I save? 20:19:03 Is that automatically done? 20:19:12 Quit and it'll ask 20:19:15 -march=i386 -Os -s -fomit-frame-pointer -malign-jumps=2 -malign-loops=2 -malign-functions=2 (I think ... although this is obviously untested on a kernel) 20:19:19 There's also an explicit save at the top-level 20:19:30 Oo, allyesconfig is LD'ing 20:19:35 And taking a while 20:19:37 [~/Downloads/linux-2.6.31.5]$ cp .config ../linuxconfig 20:19:41 should've used Gold :-D 20:19:44 Time for make bzImage????? 20:19:52 ehird, just make? 20:19:54 How long will this take, I wonder 20:19:57 AnMaster: Deewiant does it this way 20:19:58 -!- zzo38 has joined. 20:20:07 mh 20:20:09 Error error error 20:20:10 mhm* 20:20:10 It wants elf.h 20:20:12 How surprising 20:20:16 Fuck, uh 20:20:22 Someone wanna build this for me? 20:20:23 ehird, worked for me? 20:20:24 Can't really, you know 20:20:25 ehird: Hey, 255424 with 4kb stacks 20:20:26 Get elf.h 20:20:27 Being on OS X 20:20:27 A pessimization!! 20:20:29 And such 20:20:30 Deewiant: :D 20:20:33 Deewiant: Increase the stacks! 20:20:39 Or can't you 20:20:53 Which one of you kindly fellows can I enlist to copy this .config over and build it 20:20:58 http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/img_09/mn7105_cover.gif 20:21:00 8kb stacks was 255232 20:21:13 ehird, where is it? 20:21:13 Woo, allyesconfig is done 20:21:18 27M 20:21:19 zzo38: :D 20:21:20 28285056 20:21:20 AnMaster: My disk 20:21:21 Rugxulo: ^ 20:21:24 Deewiant: Quite small 20:21:27 *Quite small 20:21:28 LZMA'd 20:21:30 ehird, upload it somewher 20:21:31 AnMaster: Want me to pastebin it? 20:21:33 ehird, nah 20:21:37 ehird, want to wget it 20:21:39 27 MB? stripped? 20:21:45 strip -s? 20:21:49 zzo38: it's a Mac!! :-) 20:21:57 No, it's an Apple 20:21:57 Or what? 20:22:06 just strip 20:22:11 plain strip 20:22:13 strip:bzImage: File format not recognized 20:22:19 Can't do LZMA. 20:22:20 AnMaster: http://pastie.org/668209.txt?key=dxgyzbdi6maappqvzlocq 20:22:22 AnMaster: Thanks 20:22:22 Presumably. 20:22:24 AnMaster: (for 32-bit please) 20:22:34 heh, 27 MB is pretty big 20:22:35 CONFIG_OUTPUT_FORMAT="elf32-i386" 20:22:36 Eurgh 20:22:43 Do you have the ability to make that a.out? 20:23:02 If so, uh, please do :/ 20:23:05 Rugxulo: Well, Linux does support a lot more stuff than your average BSD. 20:23:10 ehird, going 20:23:16 obviously, it's three times as big! 20:23:17 Going 20:23:18 Gone! 20:23:22 :-) 20:23:23 ehird, ... 20:23:28 What. 20:23:29 ehird, and I only have gcc 4.x here 20:23:35 what with this being ubuntu 20:23:37 So? 4.0.1 does it, I think :P 20:23:43 ehird, 4.3 20:23:46 Anyway, ELF is fine 20:23:49 The kernel only supports a.out 20:23:50 But yeah 20:23:57 I'll need to crosscompile to compile the busyboxing 20:24:02 Hmm, can you even use elf.h on a non-ELF system 20:24:08 ehird, I have 4.4 and 4.5-snapshot too 20:24:15 but the latter one miscompiles everything 20:24:23 That's handy 20:24:28 Deewiant, yeah isn't it 20:24:32 Yep! 20:24:35 Deewiant, it does do LTO though 20:24:48 ehird, your kernel: 342976 arch/x86/boot/bzImage 20:25:04 I got 342544 20:25:09 mine was 331280 20:25:11 Good first start 20:25:13 :PPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP 20:25:31 ehird, want me to upload the bzimage somewhere? 20:25:36 Gonna have to get jiggy wit' it, as is the vernacular, I gather, to further this downwardsly 20:25:39 if so, give me a command line to execute to do it 20:25:42 should use cur, 20:25:43 curl* 20:25:44 AnMaster: It's an ELF that can only load a.outs and I have no system to do anything 20:25:45 So no 20:25:56 Besides, who cares if it works if it works in theory? 20:26:08 ehird, you said it had to boot in a VM? 20:26:10 originally 20:26:14 THEORETICALLY 20:26:18 Who tests things/ 20:26:20 *? 20:26:21 That takes work. 20:26:29 oh ok 20:26:37 10/24/2009 02:26 PM 11,481,646 netbsd-GENERIC 20:26:42 I wonder if the MISC binary support is smaller than the a.out binary support 20:26:47 │ If you say Y here, it will be possible to plug wrapper-driven binary │ 20:26:48 CC net/nonet.o 20:26:48 LD net/ieee802154/built-in.o 20:26:48 LD net/wireless/built-in.o 20:26:48 LD net/built-in.o 20:26:48 │ formats into the kernel. You will like this especially when you use │ 20:26:48 │ programs that need an interpreter to run like Java, Python, .NET or │ 20:26:49 │ Emacs-Lisp. It's also useful if you often run DOS executables under │ 20:26:50 ...wait, what 20:26:52 ehird, that was interesting ^ 20:26:52 WHAT IS THIS HORROR 20:26:56 WHAT IS THIS HORROR 20:26:59 AnMaster: Ooh 20:27:03 I must expurgate 20:27:20 ehird, can't be done. I checked 20:27:23 What 20:27:24 -!- madbrain has joined. 20:27:26 LD drivers/video/backlight/built-in.o 20:27:29 that though... can 20:27:36 ..................................... You can't get rid of wireless? 20:27:38 Pokemon Philosophy is a complex subject filled with contradictions. Many subphilosophies are used of it, based on opinion, context, and other things. For example, I have the terms "strongly basic" and "weakly basic" used to describe some things, and other terms are used too. Maybe you can guess what these terms mean, maybe not. Maybe I should make a wiki of it 20:27:38 ehird, want full built output 20:27:40 ? 20:27:40 What is that fucking bullshit crapass 20:27:42 AnMaster: Suer 20:27:44 *Sire 20:27:44 ehird, no 20:27:45 Sure 20:27:54 ehird, it is just a placeholder wireless thingy 20:28:06 Just done /backlight, nothing I can find 20:28:10 To disable 20:28:34 ehird, under video stuff 20:28:38 NetBSD: 11.5 MB, Linux: 27 MB 20:28:41 ehird, anyway http://pastebin.ca/1641881 20:28:42 Where, I searched 20:28:42 quite a difference 20:28:50 * ehird does romfs on a floppy disk or something 20:29:06 anyone ever tried BefiOS? 20:29:16 │ This is a very small read-only file system mainly intended for │ 20:29:17 │ initial ram disks of installation disks, but it could be used for │ 20:29:17 │ other read-only media as well. Read │ 20:29:18 │ for details. │ 20:29:19 Perfect 20:29:19 Rugxulo: I'm not sure whether 'allyesconfig' is the fully generic thing, anyway; it may include a lot of 'disable X'. 20:29:22 sorry, BefOS 20:29:24 ehird, I told you 20:29:31 On a floppy 20:29:33 It's genius 20:29:34 Or a disk 20:29:37 whichever is smaller. 20:29:51 ehird, you only get one more compile from me 20:29:56 http://www.catseye.tc/projects/befos/ 20:29:57 then I'm busy 20:29:59 Then I have to pay? 20:30:05 ehird, ooh good idea 20:30:14 Hey Deewiant 20:30:22 Can you see which is bigger, floppy disk driiver or very old hard disk driver 20:30:22 Thx 20:30:50 $ file arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o 20:30:50 arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o: current ar archive 20:30:52 evil 20:30:54 *.o 20:30:56 for a *.a 20:31:14 $ du -b arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o 20:31:14 8 arch/x86/kernel/acpi/built-in.o 20:31:37 or file could be misdetecting 20:32:23 ehird, [ ] Supported processor vendors ---> 20:32:25 try that 20:32:29 disable all but one 20:32:35 should remove some code to check 20:32:38 for the other ones 20:32:52 though it might be in the padded setup hm 20:33:15 It's totally disabled 20:33:41 rain! 20:33:42 Deewiant: Yo 20:33:45 Hi augur 20:33:51 hey 20:34:05 weird rain 20:34:13 its making some pinging noise outside 20:34:28 and it sounds just like the name ping in limechat 20:34:32 XD 20:34:49 augur, hail? 20:34:53 nah 20:35:12 * ehird slaps Deewiant 20:37:13 cv 20:37:40 ehird, oooh may I see your CV 20:37:49 ghjkl 20:37:53 hope that answers your question 20:38:47 ehird, no 20:38:56 Definitions of CV on the Web: 20:38:57 curriculum vitae: a summary of your academic and work history 20:38:57 one hundred five: being five more than one hundred 20:38:57 wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn 20:38:58 interesting 20:39:00 i need to know which of these is smaller :< 20:39:31 ehird, didn't you have a linux install on there? 20:39:34 use it 20:39:38 fj 20:39:51 .fj is the country code top-level domain (ccTLD) for Fiji. 20:40:09 anmaster: isn't the english name for CV "resumé" ? 20:40:25 madbrain, maybe. CV is the term I heard for it here in Sweden 20:40:33 wouldn't know about English name for it 20:40:42 cv is used in uk english 20:41:08 there you go then 20:41:20 who cares about US, AU or CA English? 20:42:12 (probably it is something like "dinga-waly" in AU English anyway :P) 20:42:20 ehird: Sorry, I rebooted to Windows. :-P 20:42:29 night 20:42:29 Haha fuck you :| 20:42:33 AnMaster: And you 20:42:48 ehird, ask augur to do it! 20:42:54 augur uses os x 20:42:56 you dolt 20:43:11 ehird, yeah but if you told him "fuck you" it would be a lot funnier 20:43:17 not really 20:43:36 ehird, just reboot into linux yourself 20:43:46 or use a VM 20:44:03 steps omitted: get hfs+ reading fucking working, move file, move kernel over, get used to the new environment, reconnect to irc, blah bla hla ldfgdfklv,hbjk 20:44:45 ehird, eh. Just pastebin it, write down url on paper, enter the url again on the other side 20:44:51 and start using a bouncer again 20:44:55 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 20:45:00 oh, and redownload all the kernel? 20:45:09 with my dog-slow internet that costs £15 per GB? 20:45:13 ehird, oh forgot that it took more than ~20 seconds for you 20:45:14 `calc 15 £ in sek 20:45:15 15 UK = 166.055793 Swedish kronor 20:45:31 ie two beers? :D 20:45:37 sorry, it takes about one minute for me 20:45:43 £15/GB?! That sucks ass 20:45:45 20 seconds is Deewiant 20:45:49 Deewiant: Verily 20:45:54 AnMaster: Wasn't it 5 seconds? 20:45:56 It is mobile and 3G, you understand 20:46:03 The pricing is incomprehensible 20:46:06 Mobile sucks ass 20:46:12 Deewiant, oh I thought that was "time left" 20:46:14 but maybe 20:46:15 dude, in canada, mobile internet is like 3¢/kb 20:46:20 Land line connection hasn't migrated sucks ass 20:46:21 At least for downloading 60-megabyte files :-P 20:46:25 Will only be 3-4 Mb when it has sucks ass 20:46:31 madbrain: What, mobile "broadband"? 20:46:32 Or wired 20:46:39 that's 30000$/Gb 20:46:44 like, not wired 20:46:52 specifically cell phone internet 20:47:07 used in a place like mexico to get roaming charges 20:47:12 AnMaster: Maybe, I didn't look at it in too much detail myself. 20:47:20 ehird, ok just checked 74s at 819K/s 20:47:23 according to wget 20:47:44 When I move to Sweden and steal that 4 Gb connection they gave to that guy's grandma 20:47:46 YOU'LL ALL BE CRYING 20:47:48 AND NOT LAUGHING 20:47:50 CRYING INSTEAD 20:47:58 ehird, um this is 8 mbit down ADSL 20:48:00 ehird: specifically this http://your.rogers.com/Business/productsservices/wireless/servicesaddons/pccards.asp?&cm_mmc=grdrt-_-all-_-en-_-stick 20:48:01 1 mbit up 20:48:10 AnMaster: Your statement is apropos of nothing 20:48:20 oh grandma 20:48:23 madbrain: more or less expensive, I'm too tired to work it out 20:48:26 ineiros just downloaded a 60M file with my 3G stick, which is contractually limited to 384k. I guess it was some 15 minutes. 20:48:29 AnMaster: Some internet guy 20:48:31 it was 40 gbps 20:48:33 wasn't it 20:48:35 No 20:48:36 4 20:48:38 sure? 20:48:42 100% 20:49:23 ehird: like, some people used it in the dominican republic and raked up bills of 1500$ from 3 or 4 sessions of about 10 minutes each 20:49:25 I keep fingering the keyboard for my f key's nub, but I replaced it with another key 20:49:28 madbrain: ha 20:49:49 Mobile roaming has some really incredible prices. And often huge granularity in the pricing. 20:50:22 it's just depressing that I'm gonna make the leap from mobile ... to ... 3-4 Mb adsl 20:50:25 fucking woop 20:50:37 Roaming GPRS in Italy (for our Finnish operators) was something like 10 EUR/megabyte. 20:51:09 ""Data Other data 4,220.00 Kb 211.00DL $211.00 Txt "" 20:51:25 (But since one operator counted it in 10k block, sending small emails with a custom-built proggie was still cheaper than SMS.) 20:51:28 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 20:51:35 s/block/blocks/ 20:52:09 ehird: that's why mobile telephony isn't as popular in canada as in other countries... their rates are astronomic 20:52:17 Hey, it's the altparty supercomputer democompo real soon now. 20:53:01 we can't get cable, fibre-optic, pony-delivered internet, anything here, just regular adsl dog slow at 3-4 Mb/s because the exchange is in another fucking town >_< 20:53:03 stupid internets 20:53:17 They had invited a guy from Cray, and he had brought one of those "put-it-unside-your-desk" "supercomputers" (Cray CX1, I think) with him. (The actual competition used one of CSC's machines, I think.) 20:53:29 Unside? 20:54:20 "Under", heh. 20:54:36 And apparently they're running it with the CX1 too, a shame. Makes sense, though. 20:54:48 Ooh, hey fizzie 20:54:52 Youuuuuuuuuuuuu have a linux system don't you 20:54:52 >:E 20:54:54 >:D 20:54:56 >:) 20:55:11 mWAHAhAHAHAHAHahAHAHAHAHAHA 20:55:11 Ahem. 20:55:17 A couple, yes, but I'm not actually at them right now. 20:55:25 CURSES! Foiled again! 20:55:55 -!- FireFly has joined. 20:57:48 ehird, ncurses? 20:57:55 Shush. 20:58:24 http://www.altparty.org/2009/competition-rules.html#csc-compo and "Technical specifications"; it's just that you can't really call the CX1 a "supercomputer"; it's just a small commodity cluster compressed into a tiny-ish box. (Okay, so the infiniband network is a bit special.) 21:09:34 All supercomputers are commodity clusters 21:09:36 these days 21:10:51 But they come in bigger boxes. 21:15:49 -!- jix has joined. 21:17:27 cray parallel computer demo eh? 21:17:45 sounds like a challenge 21:19:58 -!- Oranjer1 has joined. 21:20:59 :O 21:21:07 hello! 21:21:33 yay garlic 21:21:36 hi 21:21:45 yay tomato 21:21:54 hey ehird, AnMaster 21:21:58 Oranjer1, no, I just ate half a garlic 21:21:59 -!- zzo38 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:22:04 oh, okay 21:22:04 on a piece of bread 21:22:10 uhhh 21:22:11 yay water 21:22:21 *slurp* 21:22:22 I agree, I am glad that water exists 21:22:29 AND garlic 21:22:32 hm 21:22:36 yummm 21:22:42 garlic flavoured water? 21:22:50 good idea [y/Y]? 21:22:52 eek 21:22:58 oerjan, iwc 21:24:39 oerjan, on the other hand, userfriendly took a rather unexpected turn as of recently 21:24:47 (iirc you read (or at least read) it?) 21:24:52 nope 21:25:06 uh what 21:25:09 webcomics 21:25:20 (curses, past tense of read is read) 21:25:25 (yeah ncurses) 21:25:32 Oranjer1, iwc and uf? 21:25:45 uh what 21:25:49 iwc and uf? 21:25:51 :O??? 21:25:51 well 21:25:53 AnMaster: i understood your tenses perfectly :D 21:26:13 I just answered your question Oranjer1 21:26:19 oh okay 21:26:38 Oranjer1, that is, "irregular webcomic" and "userfriendly" 21:26:52 oh okay 21:27:38 s/rf/r f/ 21:27:49 okay oerjan okay 21:27:56 oerjan, where 21:28:00 oh there 21:28:14 i am glad my attempt to be obscure worked 21:28:17 AnMaster: i understood your tenses per fectly :D <-- ? 21:28:26 that I assuem 21:28:27 * oerjan swats AnMaster -----### 21:28:37 oerjan, prefectly! 21:28:44 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:28:44 what's going on I am scared this scares me 21:28:45 (yes intentional) 21:28:56 AnMaster: user friendly in two words 21:29:00 right 21:29:21 Oranjer1, you are always so emotional and confused... 21:29:27 sorry 21:29:34 heh 21:29:42 fungot, what's your emotional trauma? 21:29:43 Oranjer1, you keep reminding me of Sgeo 21:29:47 Oranjer1: fnord noting in almost every case the well-nigh omnipresent sculptures, which indeed seem to have difficulty in seeing at night, he tethered his zebra to a sapling and fnord himself deliberately north along garrison street. by the time dr. waite called in person, having obtained his name and fortune. so the youth had found himself working, chilled and clad only in the fnord air. the temperature was rapidly ascending, 21:29:52 ^style 21:29:53 Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft* nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube 21:29:56 oh hahaha 21:29:59 What? 21:30:06 Sgeo, perfect! 21:30:34 that sounds traumatic indeed 21:30:41 oerjan, yeah 21:31:00 oerjan, sadly less so than one could have hoped with that style 21:31:05 "having obtained his name and fortune" :O 21:31:14 fungot, really? 21:31:14 fungot, say something scary 21:31:17 AnMaster: through the gates of his lost boyhood which caused a number of these the good man could truly tell nothing. it is an impression quite similar to one which i have granted eleven times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to beings of your planet five times only to those you call men, or th 21:31:17 :O 21:31:35 huh 21:31:38 holy shit 21:31:41 we broke it 21:31:45 it shouldn't have missed your line Oranjer1 21:31:47 fizzie, ^ 21:31:54 time is non-euclidean in that style 21:31:58 of course 21:32:04 fungot. 21:32:06 Oranjer1: and tore him to pieces before my eyes. a moment later i had raised one of the current arkham tales is about fat oaks that shine and move as they ought to be. they told me the hideous secret of nyarlathotep, with that torrent of wind and shrieking sound growing moment by moment, and then 21:32:23 AND THEN WHAT 21:32:35 Oranjer1, to scared to continue 21:32:39 of course 21:32:45 this does remind me of that one game 21:32:50 what game 21:32:53 where you traverse some stories 21:32:59 AnMaster: Missing that line was perfectly normal: the last few were to him, so the anti-spamming filter kicked in. 21:32:59 eh? 21:32:59 Lovecraft's one of them 21:33:05 i will try to find a link 21:33:11 Deewiant, wrong order 21:33:15 fungot, really? 21:33:15 fungot, say something scary 21:33:16 AnMaster: outside, across the putrid moat and under the sea; but carter did not see this time the bodies must have been sent fnord. i am telling the truth, and i literally raced along the fnord brink, but at no time did he give up hope. early this year he made great fnord through a book he desperately fnord so at length they strove to exercise fnord, fnord 21:33:17 AnMaster: decade on every hand, while on his chest and of apelike claws on his back; and when they had a kind of force that doesn't belong in our part of space where form does not exist at all, but concerned the more abstract matters which i have since found highly characteristic of him that this part of the lore of the past was his undoing. he stumbled on things no mortal ought ever to know, for then mankind would have become 21:33:31 AnMaster: On the same second 21:33:37 Deewiant, hm true 21:33:42 It might've seen yours later. 21:33:48 indeed 21:34:10 geez I'm all up for random fnord's but that's too much 21:34:30 Lovecraft has a lot of fnords 21:34:39 hah 21:34:43 [21:28] Oranjer1: what's going on I am scared this scares me 21:34:43 vaguely pfsc. except too excited. 21:34:44 hell of depressing 21:34:54 pfsc 21:34:56 what 21:35:01 http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/ 21:35:13 ooooh 21:35:16 this is the day where we refer to webcomics in acronyms 21:35:17 I have heard of that 21:35:25 I despise acronyms 21:35:27 :O 21:35:33 yes I said it what now huh 21:36:07 * ehird punches Oranjer1 21:36:16 :O 21:36:16 Oranjer1, I assume you don't dislike TLAs at least? 21:36:28 uh no ? 21:36:42 Oranjer1, so all acronyms except TLAs then? 21:37:08 uh google time 21:37:36 oh uh I am okay with no length of acronym sorry 21:37:51 TLA's (three letter acronyms) are out as well 21:38:19 I am okay with acronyms though if you put WTSF (what they stand for) immediately after the first time you mention them 21:38:46 ehird, pfsc hm? 21:38:47 WTFTSF 21:38:50 looked at it 21:38:54 very strange 21:39:09 ahaha I get that ehird 21:39:11 thank you, captain obvious 21:39:19 i am promoting you to general obvious 21:39:22 for your keen insights into the absolutely obvious 21:39:24 congratulations, AnMaster 21:39:26 I prefer buttersafe and Perry Bible Fellowship 21:39:35 :O 21:39:39 pbf stopped updating often and i became a sad person 21:39:45 I am okay with acronyms though if you put WTSF (what they stand for) immediately after the first time you mention them <-- I did. Some months ago 21:39:49 almost a year by now 21:39:51 probably 21:39:52 http://jayisgames.com/archives/2009/08/silent_conversation.php 21:39:53 at least 21:40:01 Oranjer1, when I first read iwc 21:40:07 no each time you say it in a new medium 21:40:13 Oranjer1, that was on irc too 21:40:15 to oerjan 21:40:19 each new conversation! :O 21:40:23 I HATE THAT GAME 21:40:26 it's not even a game 21:40:28 it's just shit 21:40:34 sorry ehird you are foolish 21:40:41 FOOL 21:40:41 http://jayisgames.com/archives/2009/08/silent_conversation.php <-- what is it about 21:40:42 ISH 21:40:45 no flash 21:40:48 I hate flash 21:40:59 thank you AnMaster. we care about your opinion on flash 21:40:59 you...you don't even have a flash player plug-in? 21:41:00 deeply 21:41:05 please mention it to us all the time 21:41:10 oh wait, never mind 21:41:11 you already do 21:41:15 hey, ehird, guess what 21:41:20 AnMaster hates flash 21:41:24 DOES HE 21:41:25 wow 21:41:33 yeah I know I was like "wow" too 21:41:43 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer. 21:41:48 Oranjer, no java plugin either 21:41:53 geez man 21:41:57 YOU ARE SO RADICAL ANMASTER 21:41:59 Oranjer, and javascript turned off 21:42:00 keep fighting the good fight 21:42:03 viva la revolucion! 21:42:03 ohh 21:42:06 stick it to the man 21:42:06 there's one thing to hate it but uh you are missing out a lot I would say 21:42:09 tell us some more, this is practically erotica 21:42:11 GEEK 21:42:12 REVOLUTION 21:42:12 EROTICA 21:42:18 ehird, ugh 21:42:25 i was getting kinda tired of the once every two week thing hearing it, so 21:42:28 I mean flash is like the best way to get games out there 21:42:32 if you could deliver some flash/java/javascript related hate every day 21:42:33 in real quick time 21:42:33 that would be just fine 21:42:36 ehird, nice idea though 21:42:38 just 21:42:38 fine 21:42:43 please do it. 21:42:44 possibly lynx screenshots? 21:42:47 s≥ 21:42:51 what 21:43:12 in real quick time <-- quicktime movies can play in vlc at least 21:43:58 not quick time 21:44:02 also I love vlc 21:44:11 VLC PLAYER 21:44:15 yay 21:44:18 Oranjer, what 21:44:26 it plays my downloaded movies and shows! 21:44:30 err yes 21:44:33 what about it 21:44:36 yay copyright infringement 21:44:37 " VLC PLAYER" 21:44:39 why that line 21:44:42 Oranjer, *blink* 21:44:45 BECAUSE I LOVE IT 21:44:47 it is just a fucking movie player 21:44:49 yay vlc player 21:44:53 :O 21:44:54 like mplayer or xine 21:44:56 or whatever 21:44:58 AnMaster: also it is just a fucking flash player 21:45:01 oops hypocrite 21:45:08 hahahahahahahahahaha 21:45:09 Oranjer: quicktime+perian bitch 21:45:10 oooooooooooooooooh 21:45:11 ehird, what? No. 21:45:14 perian? 21:45:16 what? 21:45:50 ehird, how is a flash plugin related to a standalone movie player? 21:46:01 reading comprehension! 21:46:02 yaaaaaaaaaay 21:46:03 http://lostgarden.com/2009/07/flash-love-letter-2009-part-1.html 21:46:04 http://lostgarden.com/2009/08/flash-love-letter-2009-part-2.html 21:46:08 here ya go that's all you need 21:46:12 ehird, what you said made no sense 21:46:17 i am pretty averse to clicking those links 21:46:24 AnMaster: it did, you're just an idiot who can't understand context 21:46:27 do you trust me ehird 21:46:31 they are on a blog 21:46:34 they are two blog posts 21:47:13 http://docs.google.com/File?id=dfd2pvnx_87f78mt7g7_b 21:47:14 hot ghost 21:47:19 slightly less hot ghost 21:47:23 warm ghost 21:47:31 barbershop-coloured remains of outline of ghost 21:47:33 haha 21:47:45 "no release" 21:47:48 hahahaha 21:47:51 impotence 21:48:07 that is among many of the things that barbershop-coloured remains of outlines of ghosts cannot do 21:48:26 that sucks 21:48:50 those barbershop-colored remains of outlines of ghosts should take some pills or something 21:48:56 some herbal tea 21:49:13 also they cannot drink 21:49:15 or swallow 21:49:19 they do not have mouths 21:49:20 throats 21:49:21 oh 21:49:22 blood 21:49:24 that is sad 21:49:24 stomach 21:49:26 all those things 21:49:27 you know 21:49:28 but! 21:49:32 we can rub things on them 21:49:41 no, they do not have solidity 21:49:43 like some patches and sponges full of medico 21:49:45 aww 21:49:50 we can....pray for them? 21:49:57 god is not real 21:50:07 those barbershop-colored remains of outlines of ghosts should take some pills or something 21:50:08 CAN YOU PRAY FOR THE SOUL OF A LOST GHOST 21:50:09 wait what 21:50:12 barbershop-coloured? 21:50:18 yeah AnMaster 21:50:20 yeah just give Oranjer all the credit 21:50:21 dickhaed 21:50:25 Oranjer, how is that? 21:50:28 *ea 21:50:28 ehird, or you 21:50:34 ehird, he said it 21:50:48 barbershop coloured 21:50:51 I would have said "merely red dashed", but ehird set a precedent 21:50:51 please explain 21:51:04 please explain fungot 21:51:05 Oranjer: of rather uneven fnord quality, but to those in the ward household it was overshadowed by the odour which instantly followed it; a hideous, fnord odour which non of them had come. ahead stretched double rows of pillars, and to 21:51:17 http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1004/1424010678_52efa2603a.jpg 21:51:19 obviously 21:51:29 ehird, oh that 21:51:30 right 21:52:04 ehird, err that pic makes no sense 21:52:06 haha before I saw the hairpieces and wigs part I thought it was amazing that a barber could make a bald man have hair 21:52:20 Oranjer, yeah what I just meant 21:52:26 hahahahaha 21:52:37 i was thinking that too 21:52:42 you gotta go SEVERAL STEPS ahead or you will be lost 21:52:43 well 21:52:44 "wig" 21:52:44 duh 21:52:51 right 21:52:52 okay 21:52:56 yep 21:52:57 anyway 21:53:00 did you read my links? 21:53:04 no 21:53:08 or at least skim them? 21:53:15 Oranjer, what links? 21:53:20 http://lostgarden.com/2009/07/flash-love-letter-2009-part-1.html 21:53:20 http://lostgarden.com/2009/08/flash-love-letter-2009-part-2.html 21:53:31 about flash and whatnot 21:53:43 mostly *to* flash developers, though 21:53:52 but he talks about its potential and whatnot 21:53:57 lkjnhuygftrd' 21:53:59 boring 21:54:01 shit 21:54:24 geez ehird I can't imagine what you would find interesting 21:54:39 perhaps some mindless activity without any constructive results? :O 21:54:41 ooooooooh 21:54:49 esolangs, OSs, hci, concepts relating to thereof and derivatives 21:54:52 nonsense 21:54:57 all these things are acceptable 21:55:02 and a goat 21:55:15 oh okay 21:56:43 fungot what do you do? 21:56:44 Oranjer: fnord and inclined toward the amiable and innocuous phantasy of sir j. m. on train no. 5508, leaving bellows falls at fnord p.m. it ought, i calculated, to get up to arkham at least by the next century had become known as delapore. 21:56:58 hahahaha 21:57:01 slow train that is 21:57:36 :D 21:59:05 okay ehird 22:00:35 ehird, hci? 22:00:43 human-computer interaction 22:00:51 or interface 22:01:00 meh 22:01:00 (so I have heard) 22:01:04 -!- immibis has joined. 22:01:11 meh? 22:01:16 what's your thing, then? 22:01:28 Oranjer: AnMaster was upset when he couldn't make kde 4 look like kde 2 22:01:34 and they dropped an incredibly minor preference from the terminal application 22:01:37 step away, quick! 22:01:40 uh kde 22:01:44 before a tornado engulfs this place! 22:01:46 ? 22:01:51 wait. 22:01:56 are you actually asking 22:01:58 what do you mean by kde 22:02:01 oh god i hate my life 22:02:02 WHAT IS THAT 22:02:04 WHAT 22:02:05 someone kill me 22:02:11 IT IS AN ACRONYM 22:02:19 how old are you Oranjer you sure do use a lot of capital letters 22:02:19 and because of your conduct, ehird, I refuse to google it 22:02:24 Oranjer, a recursive one 22:02:26 ok your loss 22:02:33 no ehird no ehird 22:02:51 Oranjer, yeah what is your age 22:02:52 this is like a meme blender 22:02:58 I am 18 22:02:58 * AnMaster suspects slightly older than ehird 22:02:59 :) 22:03:01 at most 22:03:02 oops 22:03:05 Oranjer, no way 22:03:07 I meant :O 22:03:12 what what is wrong 22:03:15 :O 22:03:20 Oranjer, more like 15? 22:03:24 nope! 22:03:26 i was going to guess 30-something with mental disorder :) 22:03:41 ehird, on the other hand you are not typical for your age 22:03:48 no i totally am 22:03:49 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 22:03:50 :O 22:03:53 ehird, no way 22:03:56 the planet is populated with bitter 14-year-old intellectuals 22:04:00 we're just plotting 22:04:02 lying in wait 22:04:03 ehird, how do I make the bot run a timed Befunge command? 22:04:05 until the day comes 22:04:06 THE DAY COMES 22:04:07 who program in haskell 22:04:08 right 22:04:08 Rugxulo: you don't 22:04:10 AnMaster: yes 22:04:17 to create our infernal machines 22:04:20 of world domination, you see 22:04:21 ehird, you are no longer 14 by then 22:04:29 THAT 22:04:31 is where you are mistaken 22:04:35 well somebody run this and tell me how long it takes: "91+:*-:0`#@ #._" 22:04:36 for we have stopped the aging process entirely 22:04:36 aha 22:04:38 MWAHAHIUWHAIUhiauwhiusdfghkjkl;l' 22:04:41 oh hey I have heard of kde 22:04:41 ehird, oh hah 22:04:42 g 22:04:43 yay me 22:04:54 I think xfce looks very nice 22:04:57 `bf +++. 22:04:58 No output. 22:05:01 dammit more acronyms 22:05:14 oops 22:05:15 Oranjer, not sure 22:05:19 it might be the actual name 22:05:22 pol dns qos loga mt 22:05:22 oh okay 22:05:25 `bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++. 22:05:25 No output. 22:05:35 argh 22:05:46 oh okay yeah it says "The developers' current stance is that the initialism no longer stands for anything specific." 22:05:59 Oranjer, on kde of xfce? 22:06:05 xfce 22:06:08 ah 22:06:31 Oranjer, what was it originally? 22:06:41 I AM ANGRY 22:06:43 about flowers 22:06:48 "XForms Common Environment" 22:06:49 ehird, oh? 22:07:00 but the newer ones no longer use XForms, apparently 22:07:09 what was xforms? 22:07:10 why do flowers anger you so ehird 22:07:13 "X11 F*cks Computers Everywhere" ;-) 22:07:18 a toolkit 22:07:32 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XForms_%28toolkit%29 22:07:33 X11 Flourishingly Craps Eggs 22:07:38 Rugxulo, you mean "fucks? 22:07:40 Eggs of 80s legacy, you understand. 22:07:54 ehird, no? 22:07:58 no, I mean "fuchs" :-P 22:08:00 Br**nfuck 22:08:42 eh*rd 22:09:00 t3h 3v1l 0n3 22:09:07 * ehird stabs Rugxulo 22:09:08 ... 22:09:09 :O 22:09:10 * ehird stabs Rugxulo 22:09:10 * ehird stabs Rugxulo 22:09:11 * ehird stabs Rugxulo 22:09:16 * Rugxulo coffs on ehird with an elf 22:09:16 ... 22:09:16 ... 22:09:16 * ehird stabs Rugxulo 22:09:16 Ru*xulo yeah 22:09:22 ehird, you stabbing people hardly proves you are not evil 22:09:26 Rugxulo: A.out! 22:09:28 That HURTS! 22:09:31 Don't do that again! 22:09:32 B.out! 22:09:38 A.out a.out a.out a.out AAAAAAAAA.OUT! 22:09:42 Rugxulo, you fail at references 22:09:46 what 22:09:50 what is A.out what 22:09:52 wasn't there a b.out? (forgets) 22:09:53 AnMaster: "coffs on ehird with an elf" 22:09:53 AnMaster: perhaps you do 22:09:54 Oranjer, google it 22:09:58 FINE 22:10:00 ehird, no... 22:10:03 ehird, "b.out" 22:10:04 AnMaster: COFF, ELF 22:10:04 GOOGLE TAKE ME AWAY 22:10:05 I meant 22:10:06 idiot 22:10:12 ehird, I got that duh 22:10:18 a.out yes 22:10:20 but not b.out 22:10:27 so hhow is b.out symbolic of not getting it at all 22:10:27 it's just a throwaway pun 22:10:28 *how 22:10:33 hmmm, guess I thought of aoutb 22:10:39 see 22:10:39 I give up 22:10:42 there we go 22:10:57 Oranjer, first hit on google 22:10:58 ,,, 22:11:02 I saw it 22:11:09 Oranjer, there you go then 22:11:17 but like you people just love your Unix references huh 22:11:28 Oranjer, um what 22:11:36 Oranjer, because we all *use* unix more or less 22:11:39 many of us use Unix/Linux 22:11:40 well ehird uses OS X 22:11:40 :O 22:11:41 possibly most of us 22:11:48 :(((( ))))) 22:11:49 but that is *nix based 22:11:52 more or less? that is the question ... 22:11:57 Counterpoint: 22:12:01 after all, this is a programming channel 22:12:07 Asztal. Deewiant. that's two off the top of my head 22:12:08 oh, right 22:12:15 oerjan, too 22:12:17 oh, i believe lifthrasiir too, though that's vaguer 22:12:19 yes, oerjan 22:12:22 oklopol 22:12:28 (Oranjer :P) 22:12:28 ehird, anyway Deewiant dual-boots 22:12:32 Rugxulo 22:12:32 so doesn't count 22:12:36 AnMaster: yes, it does count 22:12:39 because he's in it a good portion of the time 22:12:44 oklopol also has ubuntu machines 22:12:45 irrelevant 22:12:48 warrigal 22:12:48 sgeo 22:12:53 hm? 22:12:56 ehird, Deewiant uses linux most of the time nowdays iirc 22:12:59 So, uh, maybe 51% of us use *nix 22:13:04 But definitely not a vast majority 22:13:19 oh, immibis probably does. that's just a guess though. 22:13:25 (windows) 22:13:27 * Sgeo mostly only uses Linux when he wants to get on the web quickly 22:13:38 Before I have to get ready to go to school, or some such 22:13:43 Windows loads slowly 22:13:47 XD 22:13:52 which Windows? 22:13:52 Ah the simple mind of Sgeo 22:13:54 Sgeo, even from suspend to disk? 22:13:55 Like clockwork! 22:14:05 Rugxulo, XP 22:14:08 you don't suspend to disk, you sleep/standby (or whatever they call it now) 22:14:15 AnMaster, from hibernate is great 22:14:23 XP loads to GUI fast but isn't as usable right away (still has stuff to load) 22:14:25 But I only started playing with that recently 22:14:28 Rugxulo, um it is the same basically 22:14:48 no, one way keeps it in RAM, the other writes it to disk 22:14:53 .. 22:15:00 suspend to disk == hibernate 22:15:01 HIBWHATEVER = SAME AS SUSPEND TO DISK 22:15:06 that is what I meant 22:15:12 oops the caps 22:15:12 yes, but that's not the same as standby 22:15:19 Rugxulo, I never said it was 22:15:22 so irrelevant 22:15:22 [10:13] oh, immibis probably does. that's just a guess though. 22:15:23 ? 22:15:28 use windows. 22:15:30 AnMaster, you need ehird's cherry, then you won't be poppin' that Caps no mo' 22:15:40 what. 22:15:47 * Rugxulo make silly joke 22:15:48 Rugxulo, it is supposed to be an additional ctrl 22:15:57 so not sure what went wrong there 22:16:06 in Soviet Russia, Caps control YOU!!! 22:16:11 i'm wondering how i got involved in that though... 22:16:13 I JUST SLAMMED DOWN ON CAPS LOCK REALLY HARD 22:16:14 FELT GOOD 22:16:20 immibis: listing the people who use windows in here. 22:16:28 ehird, don't bust yer cherry 22:16:38 yeah we got to know who we should stalk 22:16:41 with that gun 22:16:42 ah geex I am sorry for mentioning OS's in a programming channel I will never do that again 22:16:47 immibis, ↑ 22:16:58 ↑ <-- what is this character? 22:17:04 immibis, an up arrow 22:17:10 immibis, you fail at unicode 22:17:12 Ctrl-T? (can't remember) 22:17:22 Rugxulo, ? AltGr-shift-U 22:17:23 nope, Ctrl-X 22:17:25 is what I used 22:17:28 for the up-arrow 22:17:36 * immibis hasn't been able to find a client that runs on windows, supports scripting, supports unicode, and is free 22:17:53 make one immibis!!!!! 22:17:55 Chatzilla? ERC? 22:17:56 immibis, xchat silverex edition? 22:18:01 surely one of those is scriptable 22:18:11 xchat isn't free on windows though... 22:18:12 Rugxulo, erc is... by definition 22:18:18 immibis, silverex edition 22:18:19 I said 22:18:24 I figured as much (but never tried) 22:18:24 chatzilla does those 22:18:24 it is a free xchat for windows 22:18:26 * immibis tries chatzilla 22:18:27 also, mirc 22:18:34 mirc ain't free 22:18:38 he wants free 22:18:41 yes it is, nobody registers it. 22:18:46 and it just bugs you for a few seconds 22:18:49 no, we've been over this before 22:18:57 "Firefox prevented this site (addons.mozilla.org) from asking you to install software on your computer." <-- lol? 22:18:58 it used to be free (like ten years ago) but isn't anymore 22:19:21 immibis: get the standalone 22:19:23 haha immibis 22:19:25 chatzilla.rdmsoft.com or whatever 22:19:31 immibis, "from asking"? 22:19:34 Rugxulo: it just gives a nag screen 22:20:34 ehird, there is a standalone chatzilla? 22:20:42 yes. 22:20:45 nobody sane uses the browser plugin 22:20:50 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)). 22:20:53 HydraIRC is open source, supports DLL plugins, not sure if that qualifies as "scripting", though 22:21:04 * Rugxulo isn't sane, then 22:21:14 then again, we ARE in #esoteric 22:21:14 uh what 22:21:22 ehird: I used to use the browser plugin 22:21:27 although that was rather unusual circumstances 22:21:31 fungot what OS do you regularly use? 22:21:31 Oranjer: by h. p. lovecraft and anna helen fnord 22:21:36 okay 22:21:43 ha 22:22:19 `befunge 51*.@ 22:22:19 No output. 22:22:25 dang it 22:22:59 -!- immibis_ has joined. 22:23:11 Rugxulo, try 22:23:12 >:D< 22:23:13 -!- immibis has quit ("Not that there is anything wrong with that"). 22:23:20 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis. 22:23:22 `befunge 55+,51*.@ 22:23:23 No output. 22:23:24 wait 22:23:29 heh 22:23:29 `befunge 51*.55+,@ 22:23:30 No output. 22:23:34 hum 22:23:35 haha 22:23:36 that is odd 22:23:48 ehird knows how to make it work 22:23:53 `befunge 51*.@ > /dev/null 22:23:54 No output. 22:23:56 How can I make ChatZilla auto-identify? 22:23:59 oh 22:24:02 !befunge 51*.55+,@ 22:24:02 5 22:24:04 there 22:24:10 !befunge 51*.@ 22:24:10 5 22:24:13 hahahahahahahahahaha 22:24:16 !befunge 51+.@ 22:24:16 6 22:24:21 -!- ehird has quit. 22:24:24 should I learn befunge huh? 22:24:30 definitely 22:24:34 uh okay 22:24:36 but 98 is too much, stick to 93 22:24:46 what other languages should I learn simultaneously 22:24:57 !befunge98 a"sey ,rejnarO">:#,_@ 22:24:58 Oranjer, yes 22:24:59 !befunge 91+:*-:0`#@ #._ 22:25:10 ETA 22:25:15 hahahahaha 22:25:17 indeed 22:25:17 Rugxulo, what do you think that should do? 22:25:37 eventually give me a number (I know it's slow) ;-) 22:25:37 it looks like APL, in that it reads from right to left 22:25:48 Oranjer, no it doesn't 22:25:54 it reads in different directions 22:25:54 oh okay 22:25:57 depending 22:25:58 but it's not read from right to left, just sometimes it's easier to push strings backwards 22:25:58 cool 22:26:01 that particular program's going left to right 22:26:06 just the string is written backwards 22:26:08 it can read up, down, left, right 22:26:13 it's two dimensional 22:26:13 also diagonally 22:26:14 Oranjer, it is stack based though 22:26:18 Rugxulo, and diagonally 22:26:20 93 can't do diagonal 22:26:23 left and right are the only ones practical on IRC, though 22:26:28 Rugxulo, I don't care about 93 22:26:32 heh 22:26:34 :-P 22:26:34 * AnMaster wrote cfunge 22:26:43 !befunge98 <@_,#! #:<"Oranjer: other way around"a 22:26:43 Oranjer: other way around 22:26:47 the fastest 98-implementation until fizzie gets going on jitfunge 22:26:50 yes, I know, can't compile it 22:26:52 ahhhhh 22:26:56 and that program's going right-to-left 22:26:59 so the string is /still/ backwards 22:27:01 http://www.ustream.tv/channel/altparty cray democompo live stream 22:27:09 madbrain: are you a spambot 22:27:13 Deewiant, that one sure was ugly 22:27:13 cray?? 22:27:14 haha 22:27:18 if so, why are you in /this/ channel? 22:27:20 madbrain noooooooooo spam please 22:27:21 AnMaster: How's t hat? 22:27:24 madbrain 22:27:26 madbrain 22:27:27 - 22:27:28 fungot: tell madbrain that he shouldn't be here 22:27:29 Deewiant, <@_,#! #:< 22:27:30 ais523: there were veiled suggestions of a monstrous fnord but could not sleep, and whilst the squat yellow foe may be creeping silently upon us. i had encountered the thing it hinted at, was more than a fraction of lord dunsany's fnord fnord blackness of the shaft. 22:27:34 how does it feel to be spammed madbrain 22:27:36 AnMaster: Something wrong? :-P 22:27:49 Oranjer: bots don't care if they're spammed 22:27:54 clog will just be happily recording it all 22:28:01 ais523, wasn't that were fizzie was too? 22:28:04 I thought madbrain was a person 22:28:21 AnMaster: Would you've preferred r #;>:#,_@; or something? 22:28:28 ais523, pretty sure madbrain is *NOT* a bot 22:28:28 hmm... madbrain claims to be on mir 22:28:30 *mirc 22:28:34 Deewiant, yeah 22:28:35 AnMaster: maybe 22:28:44 but liking mirc is enough of a reason to ban someone 22:28:56 AnMaster: You don't like that fairly standard right-to-left string printer? 22:28:59 !befunge 9:*.@ 22:28:59 81 22:29:13 Deewiant, indeed I don't 22:29:14 hmmm, wonder why the other query never returned :-P 22:29:20 Meh, why not? 22:29:21 I much prefer >:#,_ 22:29:31 so I put things that way 22:29:39 Space-inefficient :-P 22:29:50 Deewiant, if it is, you are doing it wrong 22:29:54 No, you are 22:30:01 restructure your whole program around the strings 22:30:07 am not a bot 22:30:16 hello madbrain 22:30:17 That's not a sufficiently esolangy way of doing it 22:30:18 suuuuuure ;-) 22:30:24 What is this "structure" you speak of 22:30:28 Deewiant, oh haha 22:30:33 Befunge does not lend itself well to structure 22:30:43 Deewiant, modular block design 22:30:45 I am looking for video Befunge Tutorials 22:30:47 Well, it kinda does, but it's just not cool that way :-P 22:31:05 does anyone know a of programming-language-tutorial making program? 22:31:08 that would be cool 22:31:13 Deewiant, I have a hard time coding *un*structured 22:31:31 Weird 22:31:40 I'm not sure if there are any good Befunge tutorials around 22:31:43 Just put what you want to do next wherever your cursor is :-P 22:31:44 it's one of the easier esolangs, though 22:31:47 Befunge works well that way 22:31:59 Deewiant, global variables 22:32:02 that sort of stuff 22:32:16 Deewiant, I end up writing a frigging design document for all befunge programs :( 22:32:27 Just put 'em at (0,0) and nearby so they're quick to access 22:32:46 Deewiant, how to remember what one was used where? 22:32:50 Oranjer, try ZBefunge under Frotz, that's a good way to learn 22:32:56 I usually don't have too many 22:32:58 uh okay 22:33:05 "under Frotz" what does that mean 22:33:09 If you have a lot, put a comment wherever you start using them 22:33:14 interactive fiction interpreter (Z machine) 22:33:23 oh ha 22:33:24 Deewiant, literate befunge :D 22:33:27 Deewiant, I love that 22:33:31 Not really 22:33:38 yes really 22:33:40 I do that a lot 22:33:47 about 50/50 split 22:33:53 The TOYS test in Mycology is a good example of my Befunge commenting IIRC 22:34:03 It's still completely unreadable 22:34:03 Deewiant, don't remember it 22:34:09 Far from literate 22:34:21 this channel can be a good place to learn until people tell you off for spamming 22:34:22 -!- immibis_ has joined. 22:34:38 Oranjer, take a gander at this: http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?t=10599 22:34:45 -!- immibis has quit (Nick collision from services.). 22:34:45 ais523, start thinking about feather please 22:34:56 AnMaster: please don't, I'm busy enough as it is 22:35:00 and more or less recovering from madness 22:35:03 although, I have been slightly 22:35:03 -!- immibis_ has changed nick to immibis. 22:35:14 e.g. I think my problems can be solved by a #?# operators 22:35:16 *operator 22:35:18 Rugxulo, befunge98 I hope 22:35:23 which determines if an arbitrary object is # or not 22:35:23 befunge93 is not interesting 22:35:28 nope, 93 only 22:35:32 Rugxulo, fail 22:35:45 it's plenty interesting unless you want really weird functionality 22:35:48 93 is so much easier to write an interp for than 98... 22:35:49 it's meant to be fun, not serious 22:35:50 anyway, I must go now 22:35:52 for a while 22:35:59 ais523, "is same as"? 22:36:00 see ya peoples 22:36:05 ais523: 93 is /too/ easy to write an interpreter for :-P 22:36:09 98 seems like a joke on a joke, as in "lets be UNfun" 22:36:13 Mostly due to the 80x25 limit 22:36:15 Deewiant, indeed 22:36:25 Be-*un*fun-ge 22:36:28 Rugxulo: Hey, it's design by committee 22:36:30 98 is actually usable, 93 has too mayn aribtrary restricitons 22:36:46 ais523, yes 22:36:49 dare I ask, but what have you written in 98 then? 22:36:58 anything useful or interesting? 22:37:02 Mycology! 22:37:03 :-P 22:37:06 I don't use Befunge much 22:37:09 Rugxulo, oh, a mine sweeper game. most of it. Not completely finished yet 22:37:12 Deewiant: bo-ring ;-) 22:37:16 but most parts of it work 22:37:23 I wrote a Deadfish interp once, I forget which version of Befunge, maybe it worked in both 22:37:24 Writing it is/was plenty of fun 22:38:09 Esolang needs an article on Challenger 22:38:16 ais523, oh what? 22:38:17 BTW, Deewiant, I suspect the official B93 interpreter only printed "0 1 " due to line buffering, it must've choked later on (obviously) 22:38:20 that lang looks like a cross between Befunge and Sansism, atm 22:38:29 ais523, the space shuttle? 22:38:31 AnMaster: it's mentioned behind Rugxulo's link 22:38:39 Rugxulo: I'm surprised it even gave "0 1 " if it's line buffered 22:38:40 Sansism? 22:38:42 Challenger was inspired a bit by Befunge with Tomasz's flair to it 22:38:47 http://esolangs.org/wiki/Sansism 22:40:07 yes, he named it after the shuttle, dunno why 22:40:29 I guess he was gonna call it something related to 86 (a la 386) but '86 was the year of the crash, so .... 22:41:49 bah, if only mtve was actually here ... :-P 22:42:15 who? 22:42:39 MTV Europe 22:46:05 why 22:48:37 why? 'cause he's interested in Befunge, ETA, etc. 22:49:01 (my point is that he's here but not "here" here) 22:50:13 welp, if everyone is silent, guess I'll jet off 22:50:25 @ 22:50:28 -!- Rugxulo has left (?). 22:50:30 hmm... this channel isn't constantly active 22:50:33 but it's nice when it's ontopic 22:51:29 heh 22:54:29 hmm 22:55:08 how do you recreate the "chess" effect, ie a complex game with emergent properties from simple rules 22:59:07 madbrain, eh 22:59:10 what? 23:07:38 madbrain: allow many choices and long term effect of them? 23:08:55 while allowing similar choices to have similar effects in the short term? (so it is possible to detect certain patterns) 23:09:05 would be my first attempt 23:09:23 hm 23:09:58 I think it's a problem of how non-linear the choice space is pver time 23:10:37 if it's too non-linear it's hard for moves to have long term consequences and it esentially becomes a sort of flip choice game at the end 23:10:58 if it's too linear then making each choice and the game becomes too simple 23:21:14 so it's sort of that chaos = border betwen order and disorder thing... 23:21:14 night →→→ 23:21:53 madbrain: that's a great question 23:22:39 except a little closer to order, so humans have a chance to grasp it 23:42:39 Just like in CA there's thin line seperating patterns that shrink from those that expand... :-) 23:44:05 * Sgeo vaguely wants to learn how to write an Operating System 23:46:06 Ilari: and a thin line of those CAs that have complicated behavior at your thin line, iirc 23:50:22 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)). 23:55:22 Sgeo: there are wikis about it 23:55:31 you could start from something that already exists 23:55:32 SimonRC, I'm reading OSDev right now 23:55:42 e.g. a colorForth derivative 23:56:09 or a retroForth derivative