00:00:17 <ehird> I think I will use Dropbear for the standard ssh server and client.
00:00:20 <ehird> http://matt.ucc.asn.au/dropbear/dropbear.html
00:09:19 <ehird> What's the opposite of a dependency?
00:09:28 <ehird> i.e., thing-that-depends-on
00:09:34 <ehird> rather than thiing-that-is-depended-on
00:19:15 <pikhq> ehird: http://heirloom.sourceforge.net/tools.html
00:20:04 <ehird> Yeah, I know; but rabid devotion to olde unixes is not rational. You won't see any simplifying improvements from Heirloom.
00:20:09 <ehird> Nevertheless, it is one option.
00:20:24 <MizardX> depender depends on dependee
00:20:41 <MizardX> though, I don't know if they are real words
00:20:42 <pikhq> http://asm.sourceforge.net/asmutils.html ?
00:20:44 <ehird> MizardX: right, but I want the analogue to dependency :P
00:21:17 <ehird> pikhq: Might as well just use Busybox then; more widely used, just as over-minimal and without the crazy assemblyness.
00:21:18 <ehird> Thanks for reminding me of Heirloom, though.
00:21:56 <ehird> pikhq: If you're adventurous, could you see if the programs in `CVSROOT=anoncvs@anoncvs.NetBSD.org:/cvsroot cvs checkout -P src/bin` will compile on Linux? Small download.
00:22:15 <ehird> Makefiles are broken without the surrounding tree; just do `cc -I. *.c -o name` in a directory.
00:22:21 <ehird> Most compile here on OS X; some don't, though.
00:22:29 <ehird> But then, OS X is basically BSD.
00:22:44 <pikhq> ehird: Lemme pull up my i686 vm.
00:22:55 <ehird> Why, what are you using now?
00:23:17 <ehird> Shouldn't change things, but okay.
00:23:18 <ehird> Heh, their ed doesn't support i
00:23:25 <pikhq> Though, it's *NetBSD*. I'd imagine they're somewhat smart about architectures.
00:23:35 <Oranjer> wait, isn't that which depends a "dependent"?
00:23:44 <ehird> The context is an error like:
00:24:15 <ehird> $ rmpkg important-thing
00:24:15 <ehird> Can't; (word)s are:
00:24:16 <ehird> some-other-program
00:24:16 <ehird> If you're sure, use -f.
00:24:23 <ehird> i.e. can't; things that depend on this are:
00:25:06 <pikhq> So many compile errors...
00:25:45 <ehird> cd ed; cc -I. *.c -o ed
00:26:04 <pikhq> buf.c:36: error: expected declaration specifiers or ‘...’ before string constant
00:26:13 <pikhq> buf.c:107: error: ‘MAXINT’ undeclared (first use in this function)
00:26:17 <ehird> static char *rcsid = "@(#)buf.c,v 1.4 1994/02/01 00:34:35 alm Exp";
00:26:17 <ehird> __RCSID("$NetBSD: buf.c,v 1.26 2006/03/17 14:37:14 rumble Exp $");
00:26:23 <pikhq> ... It goes on further.
00:26:23 <ehird> Somehow, I doubt that's the line 36 it's talking about.
00:26:45 <ehird> static const char rcsid[] __attribute__((__unused__)) = "$NetBSD: buf.c,v 1.26 2006/03/17 14:37:14 rumble Exp $";
00:26:56 <ehird> WTF is that error about, then?
00:27:22 <ehird> Also... buf.c doesn't say MAXINT, anywhere.
00:27:52 <pikhq> I'm going to go try it on i686.
00:28:05 <ehird> Oh, you were using the x86_64.
00:28:09 <ehird> ... still doesn't explain it.
00:29:17 <ehird> Incidentally, how's this for initlevels:
00:31:40 <MizardX> ehird: How about "supports" ?
00:32:01 <ehird> MizardX: Technically correct, but it seems odd — supports is generally used as in "X supports Y"
00:32:04 -!- iamcal has quit.
00:32:11 <ehird> as opposed to "Can't; supports are:"
00:32:16 <ehird> (contrast "Can't; dependencies are:")
00:33:25 -!- adam_d has quit ("Leaving").
00:33:33 <ehird> Yeah, that works :-P
00:35:20 <pikhq> It would appears that the problem with NetBSD tools is the macros are hard to hunt down & fetch...
00:35:43 <pikhq> Same issues on i686-pc-linux-gnu, BTW.
00:36:04 <ehird> # define LINECHARS INT_MAX/* max chars per line */
00:36:04 <ehird> # define LINECHARS MAXINT/* max chars per line */
00:36:09 <ehird> pikhq: I think the issue is just header files.
00:36:16 <ehird> #if defined(sun) || defined(__NetBSD__) || defined(__APPLE__)
00:36:16 <ehird> # include <limits.h>
00:36:25 <ehird> pikhq: -D__NetBSD__, wouldya?
00:36:48 <pikhq> ehird: <sys/cdefs.h> is probably also causing issues.
00:37:30 <ehird> Such a shame, because these tools are very good... well-maintained, compatible, yet simple.
00:37:54 <pikhq> May be able to get them to work with patching.
00:39:12 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, for ed, you need -lcrypt.
00:39:17 <ehird> Oh, and add -DDES.
00:39:25 <ehird> Oops, and -DBACKWARDS
00:39:31 <ehird> (Reading the Makefile)
00:39:48 <ehird> Oh, I don't have an -lcrypt...
00:40:58 <pikhq> Hmm. Remove the sys/cdefs.h and the following info boilerplate, and... You get linker errors from nonexistent functions.
00:41:07 <pikhq> Since BSD libc has things glibc doesn't.
00:41:20 <ehird> Got any alternative libcs in that VM?
00:41:25 <ehird> Since I won't be using glibc...
00:41:45 <pikhq> Nothing that will have BSD extensions.
00:42:45 <ehird> What a shame this is.
00:42:59 * ehird downloads the Heirloom Toolchest, to look at the code
00:43:33 <pikhq> Also, I can't get asmutils to build at all. *shakes fist*
00:44:00 <ehird> You know what would be nice? If there was a vi clone that wasn't anally vi-compatible, but didn't have vim's bloat.
00:44:17 <ehird> (I hate systems that use a traditional vi clone as `which vi`, but vim?)
00:45:21 <ehird> pikhq: Oh, btw, this is interesting: http://codingrelic.geekhold.com/2008/11/six-million-dollar-libc.html
00:45:25 <ehird> Android's BSD-licensed, minimal libc
00:45:39 <ehird> Uses Doug Lea's malloc (dlmalloc).
00:45:49 * oerjan tried to take the page seriously and chose Annihilation, fwiw
00:46:07 <Sgeo> oerjan, I chose Online
00:46:08 <ehird> oerjan: You're suicidal, then.
00:46:47 <ehird> You know, submitting "Annihilation" is just one of many methods of suicide. If you think it's the right option, you're suicidal.
00:47:03 <Sgeo> It's not like you should be afraid of being bored. If you are, set the time limit
00:47:10 <pikhq> ehird: Will work well for non-C++ stuff, I'd imagine.
00:47:23 <ehird> pikhq: I can get the STL from elsewhere.
00:47:35 <oerjan> conditionally suicidal. the condition being that i were a simulation in a computer in an atheist 23th (?) century world
00:47:36 <Oranjer> who would be afraid of getting bored in either the online or the dream choices?
00:47:56 <ehird> Sgeo: The time limit is for being bored and suffering from akrasia, to be precise (as much as I hate the Less Wrong crowd using that word like it's their baby).
00:47:58 <Oranjer> and in the latter, your memory would fade away eventually
00:48:08 <ehird> Oranjer: Some people think death is a good thing. When pressed they may say that eventual death is a good thing, just not now.
00:48:10 <ehird> They are not rational.
00:48:23 <ehird> But picking Annihilation?
00:48:24 <Oranjer> I agree as to their irrationality
00:48:28 <ehird> That's being suicidal right now.
00:48:50 <ehird> The dream choice is scary... you may eventually adjust, and start to tie together the pieces.
00:49:02 <ehird> And once you do, you stop fooling yourself. But you're trapped.
00:49:06 <oerjan> Oranjer: i was wavering on Dream a bit though
00:49:07 <ehird> Cue consciousness claustrophobia.
00:49:18 <ehird> oerjan: so, any rebuttals to the accusation that you're suicidal?
00:49:34 <Oranjer> ehird, have you seen the movie "Vanilla Sky", or the spanish-language movie it is a remake of?
00:49:54 <ehird> I believe it was on TV one time or something. But it's an old idea.
00:50:11 <oerjan> ehird: depends on your definition of suicidal.
00:50:16 <Oranjer> but your tying it together just reminded me of that
00:50:29 <ehird> oerjan: Well, you had a choice where you could die or not die, and it would be entirely your own choice.
00:50:43 <ehird> And the dying would be a separate action, rather than an inaction or reaction.
00:50:50 <ehird> You chose to die; i.e., you killed yourself. How's that not suicide?
00:50:55 * Sgeo wonders if, in Online, he could program "Dream" for himself
00:51:01 <Sgeo> So I could switch between the two
00:51:15 <ehird> Online is the only open-ended one.
00:51:25 <ehird> Sure, the real dudes will ignore you, but will that be true forever?
00:51:26 <Oranjer> hell, you could maybe create your own body
00:51:36 <oerjan> ehird: it's a suicide in an imagined scenario.
00:51:37 <ehird> Reality is overrated.
00:51:45 <ehird> oerjan: Yes, but you tried to take it seriously, says ye.
00:52:08 <Sgeo> My prefered afterlife would be the one described by Sam Hughes, I think
00:52:20 <oerjan> ehird: i tried to take the _context_ seriously too. my choice was not valid unless i accepted that context.
00:52:48 <ehird> oerjan: So, what? An artificial consciousness is a lesser existence than a real one? Define artificial./
00:53:09 <ehird> Silicon-based instead of carbon-based, what's the difference.
00:53:20 <ehird> Sgeo: Too solitary for me.
00:53:39 <Sgeo> Add in computer terminals with chatrooms!
00:53:48 <Sgeo> And then you could arrange to meet with people
00:54:04 <Sgeo> Deadfacebook.com access, to meet up with all your dead friends
00:54:20 <ehird> http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/index.php?comicID=294
00:54:34 <ehird> ↑ pretty cool afterlife, if you're not claustrophobic
00:55:00 * Sgeo would get lonely
00:55:11 <Sgeo> And the only way to talk to friends would be to be buried near them :/
00:55:24 <Sgeo> Which really, REALLY, sucks
00:55:42 <Sgeo> Also, what about cremated people. They're dead dead
00:55:55 <ehird> Their ashes wake up!
00:56:05 <ehird> Or, you know, they're dead dead.
00:56:10 <ehird> SO DON'T GET CREMATED
00:56:14 <ehird> Get buried above ground or something
00:56:26 <oerjan> ehird: it wasn't so much the artificiality as _who_ was running it
00:56:37 <ehird> oerjan: but, e.g. in online, it'd be irrelevant
00:56:42 <ehird> he'd have no control over you any more
00:56:45 <ehird> in fact, in all of them it's irrelevant
00:56:49 <ehird> he relinquishes you
00:56:55 <oerjan> by who, i mean which civilization
00:57:03 <ehird> what's wrong with it
00:57:33 <Sgeo> I don't think it explicitely says that
00:57:36 <ehird> yes it does, and he wrote that page
00:57:44 <ehird> besides, you _want_ a dictator to exist? why?
00:57:57 <ehird> god is a scary idea, irrespective of its existence
00:58:14 * Sgeo wants Heaven to exist. If that's dependent on God, then I want God to exist
00:58:34 <ehird> Why do you want heaven to exist? It's not a utopia, it's a dictatorship.
00:58:52 <coppro> The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive
00:59:02 <ehird> but I could not be happy in a dictatorship
00:59:14 <ehird> If you just mean a blissful place, well, what a copout, we can perfectly hypothesise that without god, we could create it
00:59:28 <ehird> Going "oh, but we need god to make it" is just laziness.
00:59:39 <ehird> Or learned helplessness, whatever.
01:00:05 <Oranjer> I also wish to Immanentize the eschaton
01:00:30 <ehird> Funny, I want to stop people using that phrase even though I've never seen it used before.
01:00:56 <oerjan> i vaguely recall seeing it, or something like it
01:01:04 <Sgeo> ehird, a blissful place for dead people
01:01:18 <ehird> Sgeo: I see. Why dead people?
01:01:21 <Sgeo> Where we can learn whatever we want, interact with whoever we want, if they want to interact with us
01:01:24 <ehird> They're not dead, anyway.
01:01:33 <ehird> An afterlife merely redefines "death".
01:01:40 <ehird> It's not an afterlife, it's just life, stage 2.
01:01:57 <ehird> So, to rephrase, you want to go into the next stage of life, which is an eternal utopia, i.e. no death.
01:02:16 <ehird> We can see that this idea clearly does not require god, and is something that, theoretically, we can do.
01:02:33 <ehird> The only theoretical barrier is entropy, and we'd have a few billion years to work that out.
01:02:48 <ehird> So, basically, you don't really want an "afterlife"; that's a misnomer, and it doesn't require a god or death.
01:03:06 <Sgeo> ehird, but it excludes those who have already died, before this human-made afterlife was built
01:03:31 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
01:03:56 <ehird> Sgeo: If they could possibly partake in it, they are not dead.
01:04:11 <ehird> You don't seem to understand: dead people don't exist. If there is an afterlife, then "death" isn't.
01:04:55 <Sgeo> In my previous statement, by "dead", I meant "dead according to people who are no longer alive in the sense that we currently understand"
01:05:07 <Sgeo> Or some other definition that should be um, understandable
01:06:12 <ehird> Meh. Entertaining such a concept not only goes against Occam's razor and the scientific method, it diverts attention away from "we need to stop people dying".
01:07:45 <MizardX> It's ok to die. In fact, everybody should die. *Presses bu...* Aw... it broke!
01:08:13 <ehird> →→→→→ONWARD→→→→→→→→TO THE BRB STATION→→→→→
01:09:58 -!- Cerise has changed nick to Jerry.
01:10:49 -!- Jerry has changed nick to Cerise.
01:21:26 <ehird> pikhq: Any luck with, I forgot what you were doing?
01:22:28 <ehird> methinks dropbear is good
01:22:47 <ehird> hmm, no sftp in dropbear though
01:39:13 <ehird> Ah, you can use OpenSSH's sftp server with dropbear, it seems.
01:53:00 <ehird> pikhq: Could use http://tools.suckless.org/9base as my slightly-less-core utils! :-P
02:03:04 -!- Kalagar has joined.
02:03:38 -!- Oranjer1 has joined.
02:06:43 -!- ehiird has joined.
02:08:46 <ehiird> that show up as "* ehiird test" for anyone else? (the ehiird one)
02:09:18 <Oranjer1> I see it as <CTCP>ACTION tests
02:09:54 <oerjan> ehiird: i saw * ehiird .* both times, though :P
02:10:07 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
02:10:18 <ehiird> Even for the * ehird tests one?
02:10:23 <ehiird> YOU ARE A HALLUCINATORY MAN, OERJAN
02:10:33 <oerjan> no, that was not one of them
02:10:44 <ehiird> So, anyway, I'm talking via the filesystem-based IRC client ii! And vim with some mappings to send.
02:10:49 <oerjan> both implies 2, you know.
02:11:04 <ehiird> It's quite pleasant, although I could do with a tiling window manager to avoid these big terminal windows.
02:11:32 <ehiird> Also, it displays actions as <name> (inverted .)ACTION foo(inverted .), so I should probably use sed to mangle them into something nicer.
02:12:13 <ehiird> My bindings: we appends to irc.freenode.net/#esoteric/in then does dd (erase line, non-vimites). In insert mode, /me expands to ^AACTION^A<left cursor>.
02:12:25 <ehiird> Specifically, <C-v><C-a>ACTION<C-v><C-a>OD
02:12:41 <ehiird> Erm. That character before OD is escape (^[).
02:13:03 <ehiird> So, when I type /me, it actually expands in front of my eyes. :P
02:13:26 <ehiird> I should make it trigger on /me<space>, probably.
02:13:34 <ehiird> coppro: Nope. Just good old regular files. Put it in tmpfs if you want.
02:13:40 <ehiird> I think it doubles up as a logger this way.
02:14:08 <coppro> ehiird: oh, so it's just a file-monitoring system? lame
02:14:17 <ehiird> It's not lame, it's usable.
02:14:46 <ehiird> I should probably have another sed script that does s/ehird/ehird\007/, but eh.
02:15:01 <ehiird> (And some provisions for not doing that to my own messages; easy enough.)
02:15:22 * ehiird thinks this is actually pretty usable
02:16:39 -!- Oranjer1 has changed nick to Oranjer.
02:16:53 * coppro should make a fuse client
02:17:16 <ehiird> coppro: This has the marked advantage that your logs ARE the IRC window.
02:17:26 <pikhq> NetBSD coreutils. Or asmutils, for that matter.
02:17:29 <ehiird> Physical files, bitch! We need a revolution in non-virtual filesystems. :P
02:17:48 <ehiird> Argh, this is ridiculously comfortable even in its barebones state.
02:17:50 -!- ehird has quit.
02:18:07 <Sgeo> "If you want to know more, you can take the Online option for your afterlife, and you will have all the info you can possibly want about the real world."
02:18:11 <Sgeo> I think that biases things
02:18:34 <Sgeo> It started me thinking "Online" before I ever saw the choices
02:18:47 <ehiird> Because you're a futurist immortalist, probably.
02:19:03 <ehiird> The fact that it seems obvious is b asically just an indicator of your rationality.
02:19:11 <coppro> ehiird: fuse would allow creative things like every user having access
02:19:25 <ehiird> coppro: Elaborate. Isn't that just a+w?
02:19:48 <coppro> ehiird: No. Fuse allows you to discriminate on a per-user basis
02:19:51 <ehiird> Woo! I love this client!
02:20:06 <coppro> so you could make it so that it maintains multiple connections; one per user accessing it
02:20:18 <ehiird> This is simpler, works as a logger, and is easier to set up. Woo physical files!
02:20:24 <ehiird> coppro: That's called "multiple ii processes".
02:20:38 <coppro> ehiird: ah, but you can't use the same directory, can you?
02:20:58 <ehiird> No, which is good because they're different things...
02:21:04 <coppro> (I assume you've picked the sane implementation of having a directory for the server, and a file per channel
02:21:12 <ehiird> Filesystem = namespace = disambiguator.
02:21:34 <ehiird> server/channel/{in,out}. Also server/{in,out} and server/nick/{in,out}.
02:21:39 <ehiird> ii isn't mine, btw. It's by the suckless folks.
02:22:19 <ehiird> in/out is better because you can use tail and editors and shit without filtering, plus it's less magical.
02:22:52 <ehiird> Why's that a bad thing? :P
02:23:10 <coppro> things are more awesome when written by someone in here
02:23:21 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later").
02:23:42 <ehiird> Then you'll luuuuuuuurve my Linux distro, presumably.
02:23:58 <Sgeo> "(leaving out the hell and annihilation options, for obvious reasons)" I didn't even see that the first time
02:24:07 <ehiird> By the way, is ehird still in here? I didn't get notification of its departing, but I quit Colloquy.
02:24:24 <oerjan> `addquote <coppro> things are more awesome when written by someone in here
02:24:36 <HackEgo> 99|<coppro> things are more awesome when written by someone in here
02:24:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:24:53 <HackEgo> 23|<fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it.
02:25:13 <ehiird> Did that lag for anyone else?
02:25:18 <fungot> coppro: you! take! we find! the masamune!!!
02:25:40 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
02:25:45 <ehiird> (Also: Guys you totally should use my Linux distro when it's ready! It's grrrrrrrreat! Like Frosties.)
02:25:50 <coppro> how do I get the current style?
02:26:02 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
02:26:04 <fungot> Available: agora* alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube
02:26:13 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
02:26:22 <ehiird> My "we" just sends one line.
02:27:25 <ehiird> Okay, so I just need to fix deleting and hey presto.
02:27:51 <ehiird> Oh, and if I enable hard wrapping at ~500cols...
02:28:30 <ehiird> Any clever vim users here? What's the best way to delete the whole file's contents?
02:29:36 <ehiird> Clever and obvious; why didn't I think of that?
02:29:50 <ehiird> (Probably because I somehow forgot what % did to :s at some point in time and never looked it up...)
02:30:16 <ehiird> So now, I can just put stuff like this in the buffer:
02:31:36 <ehiird> Why wasn't I informed of this development?
02:33:44 <ehiird> bsmntbombdood: Eh?! Eh?!
02:37:43 <ehiird> Why is HackEgo so slow?
02:37:48 <HackEgo> 39|<GKennethR-L> I'm a furry
02:38:11 -!- Oranjer1 has joined.
02:40:44 <Oranjer1> but Oranjer0 doesn't exist anymore
02:40:55 <ehiird> It's true; I saw it on Star Trek.
02:41:00 <ehiird> Wait, is Oranjer still in here? Is ehird?
02:41:12 <ehiird> I think ii isn't showing /parts; how strange.
02:41:19 <Oranjer1> anyway, I'm busy watching I Heart Huckabees
02:41:38 <ehiird> Yeah, well, I Heart YOUR MOM.
02:42:36 -!- ehiird has changed nick to mes.
02:44:06 * mes downloads splitvt to try and unify these two windows
02:44:19 <mes> wait, what? why am I mes
02:44:29 <mes> oh, hm. ah.
02:44:42 <mes> "/names"; a is dropped as the presumable space char, /n = change nick
02:44:45 -!- mes has changed nick to ehird.
02:56:57 <ehird> coppro: another reason real files are awesome -- put it on nfs
02:57:02 <ehird> Voila, IRC bouncer.
02:57:10 <ehird> OH! I JUST BLEW YOUR FUSE!
02:57:38 <ehird> that's... actually a really good idea
02:57:42 <coppro> ehird: can't you NFS a fuse partition?
02:57:50 -!- Oranjer has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)).
02:58:02 <ehird> Well, possibly. I wouldn't want to try.
02:58:23 <ehird> It is a good idea, though, isn't it.
02:58:47 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection).
02:59:15 <ehird> Also, setting up screen for this is a beeeeeeeeyotch.
03:05:36 <ehird> while read line; do
03:05:36 <ehird> if echo $line | cut -f4- -d" " | grep -i rhe+t >/dev/null; then
03:05:40 <ehird> Don't see why it shouldn't work.
03:06:02 * ehird modifies that to rhe{2,}t, anyway
03:06:46 <ehird> Heh; that's it picking it up from the logs. Rheeeeet.
03:07:23 <ehird> Okay, so it's picking up lines.
03:08:43 <ehird> Hope this doesn't spam...
03:09:27 <oerjan> piping yes 'Ding!' to irc is generally considered rude, ehird
03:10:06 <ehird> I didn't do that! >_<
03:10:08 <ehird> Also, I can't stop it >_<
03:10:10 <ehird> It should give up... sometime...
03:12:07 * Sgeo once piped yes to someone's terminal
03:12:16 <Sgeo> After they were writing to me while I was in emacs
03:12:54 <ehird> Motherfuck-- ohhhh. Ohh.
03:13:10 <ehird> Fuck grep with a rake.
03:13:32 <Sgeo> No thanks. You might like that, but I don't.
03:13:39 <ehird> Or do you?! Rheet!
03:13:58 <ehird> WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME, GREP?
03:14:34 <ehird> I think I fixed it.
03:15:47 <ehird> Mother-fucking-fucker-shitty-scripting-shelling-iiing-thing-ARGH
03:17:01 <ehird> I think my grep is broken or something
03:17:08 * ehird bangs head against wall. This is annoying.
03:20:12 <ehird> So, I was going to call this an example of how awesomely easy it is to script ii, but that might be seen as disingeneous in light of recent events! However, that was grep's fault (+ needs to be \+; sigh).
03:20:29 <ehird> tail -n 0 -f out |
03:20:29 <ehird> while read line; do
03:20:29 <ehird> if echo $line | cut -f4- -d" " | grep -i 'rhee\+t' >/dev/null; then
03:20:34 <ehird> It does the obvious.
03:20:48 <ehird> You can do a nc -e style affair by putting >in after the done.
03:21:01 <Sgeo> rheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
03:21:13 <ehird> rheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
03:22:15 <Sgeo> Not ii's fault you don't know how to use grep
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03:22:29 <ehird> It's grep's fault its regexp format is so retarded. :P
03:22:37 <ehird> s/fault/fault that/, I guess.
03:22:50 <ehird> Oh, and watch as I forward a channel to another channel!
03:23:34 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:23 -!- ehird(n=ehiird@91.105.101.218) has joined #esoteric-blah
03:23:34 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:23 -!- ChanServ changed mode/#esoteric-blah -> -s+tc-o ehird
03:23:47 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:23 <ehird> rheet
03:23:55 <ehird> (My rheet-script only executes in here. Go on, join #esoteric-blah and try it. :P)
03:24:02 * Sgeo did that once. Forwarded chat between Sine and a channel on another network. Spammed the other channel into an active channel that happened to be named SGEO. Guess where Sgeo can't go.
03:24:10 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:24 -!- Sgeo(n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #esoteric-blah
03:24:12 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:24 <Sgeo> Hm
03:24:21 <ehird> I've killed the rheet-script since it got annoying.
03:24:44 <ehird> Here's how I did this, incidentally: [~/irc/irc.freenode.net/#esoteric-blah]$ tail -f out >../#esoteric/in
03:25:10 * Sgeo should probably be eating
03:25:30 <ehird> oerjan: Nope; in is magical.
03:25:39 <ehird> It sucks up anything you give it and immediately blanks out.
03:25:47 <ehird> It's basically like /dev/null but with side-effects.
03:26:44 -!- ehird has changed nick to YourMom.
03:27:10 <YourMom> 2009-10-29 02:27 <YourMom> <CTCP>ACTION concurs!<CTCP>
03:27:10 <mad> why is dram so complicated
03:27:18 <YourMom> Because I am so complicated.
03:27:18 <Sgeo> I'd say something to that, but it would probably be offensive
03:27:25 -!- YourMom has changed nick to ehird.
03:27:30 <Sgeo> Even though really I'm the only person who'd be offended.
03:27:31 <ehird> Sgeo: I postulate that I cannot be offended!
03:28:24 <Sgeo> I.. I can't even write a response, because it would be inappropriate
03:28:41 <ehird> YOU'RE AS SPEECHLESS AS YOUR MOTHER IN BED LAST NIGHT
03:29:08 <Sgeo> My mom's been dead since 2004.
03:29:47 <oerjan> hey, you never said sorry to _me_...
03:30:07 <Sgeo> oerjan, what's happened in your life? If I may ask
03:30:19 <ehird> Nobody cares about oerjan! Well FINE, sorry.
03:30:38 <ehird> Sheesh, emotions, you'd think someone died! Okay I'll shut up now
03:30:44 <oerjan> you may ask. i don't feel like answering, though.
03:31:45 <oerjan> it occurs to me that i _might_ be sending some mixed signals here
03:32:07 <oerjan> but then i am MAD, so...
03:32:27 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:32 <ehird> oerjan is such an idiot, going on about how he's mad in #esoteric? Isn't that right, guys?!
03:32:38 -!- mad has changed nick to madbrain.
03:32:41 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:32 <ehird> *#esoteric.
03:33:28 <oerjan> mutually assured destruction, that's me
03:33:35 * oerjan swats ehird again -----###
03:34:56 <ehird> I actually said that #esoteric-blah :-P
03:50:29 <ehird> Let's say you have some (s)ftp somewhere, but can't run your own programs on that server
03:50:41 <ehird> Mount it with sshfs or something, run ii on your home computer, and leave it on
03:50:59 <ehird> IRC bouncer with just internet-accessible storage and a left-on computer!
03:51:21 <ehird> Well. I'm not sure if file change notification works over SFTP...
03:51:25 -!- coppro has joined.
03:51:28 <ehird> But it's fun in theory!
03:51:32 <ehird> Oh, you weren't here.
03:51:40 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:50 <ehird> coppro: also
03:51:40 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:50 <ehird> Let's say you have some (s)ftp somewhere, but can't run
03:51:40 <ehird> your own programs on that server
03:51:40 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:50 <ehird> Mount it with sshfs or something, run ii on your home c
03:51:40 <ehird> omputer, and leave it on
03:51:41 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:50 <ehird> IRC bouncer with just internet-accessible storage and a
03:51:45 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:51 <ehird> Well. I'm not sure if file change notification works ov
03:51:49 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:51 -!- coppro(n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro) has joined #esoteric
03:51:51 <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:51 <ehird> But it's fun in theory!
03:52:48 <ehird> Wait, what do you mean by "wait, what?"?
03:53:18 <oerjan> <ehird> 2009-10-29 02:51 -!- coppro(n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro) has joined #esoteric
03:53:28 <ehird> Did this not, in fact, happen?
03:53:45 <ehird> 19:51:21 <ehird> Well. I'm not sure if file change notification works over SFTP...
03:53:46 <ehird> 19:51:25 --- join: coppro (n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro) joined #esoteric
03:53:46 <ehird> 19:51:28 <ehird> But it's fun in theory!
03:53:46 <ehird> It sure did, says clog.
03:53:48 <oerjan> yes, but (1) why did you echo it (2) are you this lagged?
03:53:55 <coppro> ehird: ah, I see. Neat
03:54:07 <ehird> I echoed it because I copied-and-pasted what I said to him, thinking he was here.
03:54:09 <oerjan> ok you are this lagged
03:54:47 <ehird> coppro: Of course, I don't think you can get file change notifications over SFTP, and doing "tail -f" will be hard...
03:56:15 <ehird> Still, it's cute. :)
03:56:44 <coppro> ehird: use an FTP fuse module :P
03:57:02 <ehird> Yes, but wouldn't "tail -f" on that consist of bombarding the FTP server? :-P
03:58:39 <Kalagar> Don't you mean File Allocation Table?
03:59:10 <ehird> Fat Allocation Table
03:59:48 <Kalagar> Oh god, recursive acronym...
04:00:16 <ehird> Who's Kalagar, anyway?
04:00:56 <Kalagar> Dunno, actually. I just found #IRP somewhere, but it's rather quiet there
04:01:27 <Sgeo> You... don't know who you are
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04:03:39 <Kalagar> Now, now avoid endless repeats...
04:04:15 <ehird> Why? Why? Wh-- etc.
04:04:18 <oerjan> ehird has been having trouble with that lately
04:09:18 <fax> #IRP is looping
04:09:28 <Kalagar> Slowly, but looping indeed
04:09:38 <Sgeo> fax tried to break the loop
04:10:01 <ehird> Anyone want to give some context?
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04:15:33 <ehiird> Yep, it does indeed work as a log
04:16:42 <fax> fungot, ^styple
04:16:44 <fungot> fax: from where does the hero alone have the power. " m, madam...! i am the master of war! i've seen all kinds of battles from here, step back, prometheus!
04:16:44 <fungot> fax: we must do it to save you! who the heck are you?! c'mon!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle! and letting these...hoodlums in here? traitors like you deserve from heckran! ha!
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04:19:49 <Oranjer> oh, wait, you were apparently trolling
04:20:03 <ehiird> your mom was trolling.
04:20:35 <Oranjer> your troll is my...mom? oh, wait
04:45:09 <ehiird> Whoa, http://w3.org/ was redesigned.
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04:52:04 <Oranjer> I do not like the new design
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05:15:52 <ehiird> I really like this IRC client.
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05:29:48 <ehiird> I turned into a spear for a year.
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05:36:17 <Asztal> Yes, the kind of table or desk that you sit at, not the one with rows and columns.
05:38:59 <Asztal> It's what my name means.
05:39:30 <Asztal> I was starting to learn Hungarian at the time, so I chose a word I'd just learnt :)
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05:41:55 <ehiird> (Oranjer: you know Hungarian?)
05:42:01 <ehiird> (or did you mean, now you know the name)
05:43:20 <Asztal> ehiird: I know it to some extent, but for some unfathomable reason¹ I haven't had much excuse to use it
05:43:22 <ehiird> "It's blah. Know it now?"
05:43:22 <ehiird> Contrived, admittedly, but your confusion previously threw me off; if you knew Hungarian, surely you wouldn't be confused, as you'd see that Asztal means table.
05:43:38 <ehiird> And I can't think of any other options.
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05:44:10 <ehiird> Asztal: Some unfathomable reason to the power of one?
05:44:29 <Oranjer> he cribbed "unfathomable reason" from wikipedia?
05:45:13 <Asztal> ehiird: Oh, forgot my footnote... ¹ Nobody else uses it. :(
05:45:31 <ehiird> Also, I'm pretty sure... Hungarians use it.
05:48:14 <ehiird> [Asztal sat silently, stunned at this revelation.]
05:49:14 <ehiird> I'm just going to assume (hope beyond hope) that that was a joke.
05:52:14 <ehiird> Please confirm it, Asztal, or I fear I wil not be able to sleep! :P
05:54:31 <ehiird> I wish I didn't have to, and I'm considering Uberman. But yes, I do in fact sleep. And I have to be up at like 9-10.
05:54:39 <Asztal> I can confirm that I know what a Hungarian is, though.
05:54:52 <ehiird> Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay ^_________________________^
05:54:53 <coppro> I would try Uberma if I didn't have a schedule to follow
05:55:11 <coppro> and that smilie is a bit too anime
05:55:28 <Asztal> I also have to be up around that time... but I can't sleep because I just made GHC panic on my code :(
05:55:32 <ehiird> coppro: try Tesla. It was invented as a more hardcore Uberman ... that fits in with schooling. http://tesser.org/sleep/teslapattern/
05:55:58 <ehiird> "Use only after a period of Uberman. Do not use while pregnant. No warranty. Your mileage will vary. Please don't sue us."
05:59:20 <ehiird> Anyway, I'm reluctant to try the hardcore polyphasic schedules (Uberman, Dymaxion, Tesla) because they haven't really been studied and I'm still developing... but then again, they must beat my fucked-up monophasic schedule.
05:59:50 <coppro> yeah, mine's pretty messed up
06:00:00 <coppro> I've been thinking of trying to switch to a diphasic schedule
06:00:15 <coppro> a couple hours in the morning, a couple in the evening
06:00:26 <ehiird> That is not known to work.
06:00:52 <ehiird> A long (like 5-6 hours) night sleep and a midday nap is "natural", though.
06:01:19 <ehiird> I wouldn't recommend what you said, though. I don't think it would work.
06:01:37 <coppro> based on my experiences, I think it would
06:01:44 <ehiird> For instance http://www.puredoxyk.com/index.php/2006/10/05/charts-of-types-of-polyphasic-schedules/ says "biphasic (note: feasibility under dispute, though "traditional biphasic", which involves one long sleep and one long "siesta" nap, is well known to work and be beneficial.)"
06:01:53 <ehiird> and matches your description (2 sleeps of 2-4 hours each)
06:02:10 <ehiird> Puredoxyk named and pioneered the Uberman schedule, so she's a credible source.
06:02:13 -!- Oranjer has left (?).
06:02:17 <ehiird> And that articcle may be circa 2006, but it's still worth considering.
06:02:28 <ehiird> I've certainly never heard of anyone doing such a schedule.
06:03:11 <coppro> I think it would be closer to your siesta nap schedule you described
06:03:27 <ehiird> Siestas have to be done at midday; it's what the circadian rhythm does.
06:03:36 <ehiird> It's why you're a little sleepy at midday.
06:03:44 <ehiird> (when doing normal monophasic)
06:03:56 <coppro> see, that's where mine would differ
06:04:09 <coppro> it would be about 2-7 am and then maybe 4-7 pm
06:04:20 <coppro> and then I'd see if I could shrink it
06:04:23 <ehiird> Yes, the problem is that you can't just make shit up and expect your body to be happy.
06:04:42 <coppro> ehiird: this is based on my experiences when I ran my monophasic schedule into the ground
06:04:52 <ehiird> With a really-hardcore, who-the-fuck-knows-how-it-works schedule like Uberman, your body adjusts because otherwise it's gonna die.
06:04:58 <ehiird> Otherwise? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Biological_clock_human.PNG
06:05:05 <ehiird> You are its bitch; design around it.
06:05:16 <ehiird> Note the total absensce of anything around noon. That's why siestas work.
06:05:25 <coppro> I ended up sleeping like that for about a day, and it felt great; not sure about the long-term effects
06:05:47 <ehiird> Basing your theory on a day? Yeah, not gonna work. Too many variables from the previous day.
06:06:10 <coppro> ehiird: it felt like it would work
06:06:24 <coppro> ehiird: you're right that I can't know for sure
06:06:26 * ehiird bashes head against a brick wall
06:06:37 <ehiird> You slept one way for one day while you were self-admittedly on a fucked up schedule.
06:06:56 <ehiird> Basing on the fact that it "felt like it would work", and going against the circadian rhythm, you think you should adopt it.
06:07:00 <ehiird> Come on, that's just stupid.
06:07:23 <coppro> ehiird: people are irrational creatures
06:07:29 <coppro> it's a fact of how our brains work
06:07:55 <ehiird> ...did you just defend your proposed adoption by admitting it's irrational?
06:08:10 <ehiird> Yes, at the lower levels we are rational, however if you're reasoning about it irrationality is your fault.
06:10:24 <coppro> ehiird: no. I'm trying to defend myself in a way that will cause you to realize that it's the sort of feeling that says
06:10:32 <coppro> "I'm right about this"
06:11:13 <ehiird> You are an idiot if you seriously believe in such feelings and ignore all rational argument. Delusional in the highest order.
06:11:48 <ehiird> Those "feelings" are worth nothing; believing them without any other input is ridiculous enough, believing them when rational counterargument is presented is simply insane.
06:15:13 <coppro> ehiird: I'd believe you in normal circumstances, but when it has to do with my own body, I trust my body to give me the feelings that allow me to make the best choice
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06:15:49 <coppro> also, there is no rational counterargument
06:15:58 <ehiird> I knew there were people this delusional, but I didn't know that the kind of crowd #esoteric attracts included them.
06:16:07 <ehiird> how on earth is there no rational counterargument
06:16:23 <ehiird> because your body's TOTALLY-ZOMG-RIGHT feelings are the very mediator of the fabric of truth?
06:17:45 <pikhq> coppro: Science FTW.
06:17:51 <coppro> ehiird: your argument consists of two things: #1 is the circadian cycle. #2 is that there is no record of anyone doing this before. The first is already demonstrably mutable, but your assertion that the hardcore cycles work by forcing your body to adapt is mere speculation
06:18:05 <ehiird> SCIENCE? There is no rational counterargument, pikhq.
06:18:22 <ehiird> coppro: It's mere speculation backed up by the fact that, you know, otherwise they wouldn't have the same effects and would fail horribly
06:18:45 <coppro> The second is a more plausible counterargument, however, it is not a proof
06:18:54 <ehiird> And the effects experienced while adjustment, and the commentary on them by adjusters, universally reflects the body going "ok, this isn't gonna end any time soon; and i'm dying, so, better adjust"
06:18:55 <pikhq> A couple hours in the morning, a couple in the evening? I highly doubt that that'd work.
06:18:59 <coppro> ehiird: trust me. I'm very good at pretending that speculation is fact
06:19:05 <ehiird> coppro: Guess what? Burden of proof, bitch!
06:19:07 <pikhq> However, if you really think that it would work, I encourage you *to try it*.]
06:19:13 <ehiird> Yeah, my counteragrument isn't a PROOF.
06:19:22 <ehiird> But you don't even have ANY evidence.
06:19:24 <pikhq> Let us know how it works -- the results should be interesting regardless of whether or not it works.
06:19:26 <ehiird> -- and no, your "feeling" does not even count as speculattion.
06:19:52 <ehiird> Otherwise I'd be going around trying to disprove every god because its followers all have feelings that it's true, oh so strong feelings at that, stronger than whatever feeling you had.
06:20:00 <coppro> No, it wasn't just a hunch.
06:20:14 <ehiird> True, it was a MYSTIC INTERLINKED-CONSCIOUSNESS WAVELENGTH FEELING.
06:20:32 <coppro> ehiird, the boy who doesn't follow his feelings
06:20:56 <coppro> "Oh dear, I appear to be extremely ill to the stomach today. Oh well, up and to school!"
06:21:07 <ehiird> you just managed to accuse not ignoring rationality in the face of "feelings" as a bad, ridiculous thing
06:21:14 <ehiird> are you religious, coppro?
06:21:19 <ehiird> because you're certainly delusional enough.
06:22:08 <coppro> ehiird: would you like me to flame you back?
06:22:29 <ehiird> no, it would almost certainly have no connection to reality as clearly your thought methodology doesn't.
06:23:12 <coppro> ehiird: Given that was another flame, I will take it as an invitation to respond, particularly in light of the number of times you've flamed me when we've disagreed. Even when I was right.
06:23:49 <ehiird> congrats, you also managed to paint me as someone orchestrating a campaign of flames against your beautiful rightness
06:24:02 <coppro> ehiird: I never said I was right all the time.
06:24:16 <ehiird> you're crazy, and i mean this in a very literal, non-insulting way.
06:24:40 <ehiird> i do like how apparently i can't state facts about your thought methodology without them being flames, though.
06:24:54 <ehiird> crime scene, do not cross, all arguments invalid
06:26:49 <coppro> You are an immature child who pretends to be all-knowing but isn't, and you hide your ignorance by demeaning other people when you disagree with them. You hide behind your ability to ignore any issues that you don't understand, and use insults to cover this fact up. You use insults to cover up for your inability to understand and properly refute the argument presented against you. Then, when...
06:26:50 <coppro> ...you do find an area of knowledge in which you are more knowledgeable than the other party, you capitalize on it, further deriding your opponent for not knowing whatever random fact it is you happen to know.
06:28:40 <ehiird> like so many other things you have said in the past minutes, that would be an excellent statement if only it had any connection to reality; for instance, your mind has completely painted an illusory sense of all-knowing on me.
06:28:55 <ehiird> i would rebut it, but it is hard to rebut something which is based on premises that are simply false.
06:29:57 <ehiird> also, by deriding do you mean using in argument? because yeah. i do use facts i know to rebut other things. shocking. i'm such a horrible child. call the presses
06:30:27 <ehiird> i would also like to note that you're a hypocrite; noting that i am indeed not an adult -- i.e., I am a child -- is merely ad hominem
06:31:03 <ehiird> i am a minor and so are you. i'm also over the age of 13, so there's no boundary between us age-wise. so even your ad hominem fails horribly
06:32:25 <ehiird> in conclusion, you've often demonstrated that you have some kind of problem with me and view me as a sort of ad hominem generator that never makes any real arguments, and so this is nothing new. it is also completely imagined, and you would do well to try and remove from your mind this crazy delusional caricature of me.
06:32:51 <ehiird> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDW0ZnZxjn4
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06:36:27 <ehiird> coppro: oh, and I'm happy to interpret this flame as an invitation to not bother to enage in rational argument with you any more, as i only do that with people who aren't completely crazy. you may feel free to enjoy the replacement of this stream with more often pickings from the previously more rarely sourced /dev/flame, or execute an /ignore command in an input booth at your nearest convenience.
06:36:48 <ehiird> wonder why ii crashedw
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06:57:46 <oklopol> singing diarrhea in the bulk of the sevenfold!
06:57:47 <oklopol> singing diarrhea in the bulk of the sevenfold!
06:57:47 <oklopol> singing diarrhea in the bulk of the sevenfold!
07:00:18 <oklopol> nowadays i sleep about 4 hours during the night, 4 hours during the day
07:00:33 <oklopol> what what? i didn't want your glio in my diarrhea i guess.
07:00:37 <ehiird> since you're inhuman you're not a datapoint
07:00:52 <oklopol> the glia are sacred for us meniculous lizards.
07:01:28 <oklopol> i was thinking i should do that too
07:01:37 <oklopol> but maybe i won't now that it's mainstream
07:03:06 <oklopol> i have this like total lecture
07:05:46 <oklopol> it's about these things that you know they eat something, and they crap something out, and then you know they are consistent in their crapping patterns, the clinical term for said crapping condition is function
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07:07:06 <oklopol> i've always liked the crapping analogy
07:07:42 <oklopol> this is a very crappy morning i guess
07:09:20 <oklopol> also why do you have two ehiird
07:09:48 <oklopol> i was too lazy to type i's, so i just wrote e and pressed tab a few times
07:10:08 <oklopol> e is pretty close to the tab so it's basically a free fall
07:10:50 <oklopol> i really need to go i think, this is getting too complicated ~>
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10:59:40 <ais523> so that you can cat all the files together and send it in an email and it's clear which is which
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11:00:33 <AnMaster> ais523, that would only make sense if every file had that
11:00:47 <AnMaster> just two out of around 20 or so
11:00:48 <ais523> oh, where I've seen that, every file /did/ have that
11:01:48 <AnMaster> ais523, plus catting them together would be a bit strange. Oh and it wouldn't be very useful since there are both server/main.c and client/main.c (only the former has such a comment at the end btw)
11:02:07 <AnMaster> and yeah it would be an insane way to distribute a program
11:02:25 <ais523> This is what's wrong with Python. And //-based comments.
11:02:34 <ais523> because you can't rely on the lines not to wrap
11:02:44 <ais523> nor the indentation to be preserved
11:02:50 <AnMaster> ais523, wrapping in the middle of a C string would cause issues too.
11:03:08 <ais523> that's what the "a" "b" syntax is for
11:03:12 <ais523> or backslash-newline, fwiw
11:03:30 <augur> interesting fact: american sign language has two mechanisms for indicating negation, one of which can actually span the whole length of the negated object
11:03:53 <AnMaster> btw wc -l claims a total of 138250 lines for all *.c and *.h
11:04:08 <AnMaster> so, yeah that way to distribute it would be rather awkward.
11:04:24 <ais523> yep, uuencoded gzip works better when it's about that long
11:04:42 <ais523> but some purists apparently insist that things like Usenet distributions are human-readable
11:06:10 <AnMaster> ais523, what about that yencode or whatever it was called
11:06:19 <AnMaster> pretty sure I seen it somewhere on usenet
11:06:30 <ais523> AnMaster: that's for sharing binaries, I think, rather than source
11:06:48 <ais523> and it's banned by most newsgroups other than the alt.binaries hierarchy
11:07:25 <AnMaster> ais523, was ages ago I last saw such a file, don't remember where
11:09:32 <fizzie> They call the encoding "yEnc", though I think the common tools were yencode/ydecode.
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11:11:37 * AnMaster ponders this (in a global include):
11:11:56 <AnMaster> so basically, DEBUG is pointless
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16:00:32 <AnMaster> olsner, as in "I actually ran across that in serious code"
16:01:30 <ais523> AnMaster: obviously, it only works when DEBUG is defined
16:02:16 <ais523> that would be funnier still if it defined NDEBUG too
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16:59:25 <oerjan> <ehiird> And I can't think of any other options.
17:00:14 <oerjan> it could be an extremely obscure word in hungarian, because hungarians always sit on the floor. yeah, that must be it.
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17:21:28 <oerjan> AnMaster: so the resemblance they noted on the forum was not a coincidence...
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17:46:04 <AnMaster> oerjan, is that name supposed to mean something?
17:46:32 <oerjan> the ishmael that has been in the martian theme for years?
17:46:46 <AnMaster> oerjan, oh right. He was named that. Right
17:47:35 <oerjan> (the last line of today's comic is a reference to moby dick's ishmael, btw)
17:59:37 <AnMaster> oerjan, I never read that book
18:00:01 <oerjan> me neither. well, maybe a few sections.
18:01:46 <oerjan> but that line is the most famous one in the book. also the first.
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21:06:56 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Law
21:20:17 <oklopol> AnMaster: what's computation in swedish
21:22:50 <oklopol> in the mathematical sense i guess
21:27:29 <Oranjer> what does the "be" at the beginning of beräkning add to the meaning?
21:28:14 <Oranjer> the process of turning räkna into beräkning
21:28:35 <Oranjer> what does the be- -(~a)ing add?
21:28:37 <AnMaster> it's like: what does the "co" at the start of "computation" mean
21:29:17 <Oranjer> well, com-pute-ate-tion, I think?
21:29:37 <AnMaster> (computation: co-mputation, mputation being the act of doing it without co)
21:30:27 <AnMaster> räk(a) = related to shrip (or is it prawn? I always mix them up in English)
21:31:01 <AnMaster> ning is making a noun of it in there
21:31:36 <Oranjer> also, AnMaster, it's shrimp and prawns
21:31:38 <oklopol> MizardX: oh, i thought beräkning would be more like counting.
21:31:53 <Oranjer> very well, I shall ask google
21:32:22 <Oranjer> <AnMaster> räk(a) = related to shrip (or is it prawn? I always mix them up in English)
21:32:33 <MizardX> räkning = counting (v); bill (n)
21:32:33 <AnMaster> Oranjer, it was a Swedish joke
21:32:46 <AnMaster> about räka == one of those "from sea but not fish thingies"
21:35:32 <MizardX> "räkna" = calculate/count (verb). "beräkna" = to do a calculation (verb). "beräkning" = act of doing a calculation (noun)
21:36:16 <MizardX> Still not sure what "be-" adds to the meaning...
21:37:12 <Oranjer> http://www.svenskaakademien.se/web/Ordlista.aspx
21:38:38 <Oranjer> but if someone who knew swedish read the "be-" words, they may be able to see a pattern? I dunno?
21:40:28 <AnMaster> Oranjer, why do you care so much?
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21:47:47 <Oranjer> well, apparently "befattning" means "post" and "fattning" means "temper"
21:48:41 <AnMaster> oh and "beskriva" == "describe", "skriva" == "write"
21:49:38 <Oranjer> I believe it must mean "this would be the object of this verb"
21:49:53 <Oranjer> "that which is calculated"
21:50:13 <MizardX> but the issue was "räkna" <-> "beräkna" (both verbs)
21:50:25 <Oranjer> beräkna -- "that which is calculated"
21:50:44 <AnMaster> while "räkna" would be "to count"
21:51:15 <Oranjer> also, I shall repost what MizardX wrote
21:51:53 <Oranjer> every time I have to copy the ä?
21:52:32 <Oranjer> I can't do that, we have yet to implement my modifying keyboard idea
21:57:50 <MizardX> Somehow "be-" strengthens the verb, giving it a wider or more intense meaning. räkna (count) -> beräkna (calculate); sitta (sit) -> besitta (posess, occupy)
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22:04:57 <Oranjer> heh, apparently "be-" in English also means intenstifier
22:05:06 <Oranjer> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/be-#English
22:09:20 <fungot> Oranjer: i, myself, will bring an end to all. ghosts lurk in the ruins! the structural damage is severe. the tale? you see, the mammon machine!
22:09:34 <Oranjer> wow, fungot, you got some ego on you
22:09:34 <fungot> Oranjer: and you call yourself a frog, and ayla... i will not betray my friends!
22:10:51 <fungot> AnMaster: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!!!
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22:11:21 <Oranjer> I thought it was like "I am biting my thumb, but not at you sir!"
22:12:25 <MizardX> Hmm... beadding "be-" to every verb.
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22:13:05 <Oranjer> also, would "would" becount?
22:14:21 <MizardX> I can't think of that as a verb...
22:14:41 <MizardX> I becan't bethink of that as a verb...
22:17:01 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_modal_verb#Would
22:17:15 <Oranjer> We apparently beclassify it as a modal verb
22:17:27 <Oranjer> I bethink we beneed more quasimodal verbs
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22:19:29 <Oranjer> fungot, what do you bethink?
22:19:29 <fungot> Oranjer: that no one was allowed to use the crane, enter any two of these letters, a b y. but, i...i shall obtain the 2 figurines on this floor to fight the mother brain, yet!
22:19:59 <Oranjer> I bemust beadd two of those letters, a, b, and y. to what?
22:20:37 <Oranjer> I give up, fungot, and I shall also stop adding "be-" to my verbs unless I find it appropriate
22:20:49 <fungot> Oranjer: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle!
22:20:49 <fungot> Oranjer: but, we are far outnumbered!!! the monster who kidnapped the princess to the castle! and letting these...hoodlums in here? traitors like you deserve from heckran! ha!
22:26:58 <Oranjer> hey everyone, anyone there?
22:27:22 <Oranjer> hey, what do you think of combining Consensus Decision Making and Conway's Law?
22:28:02 <Oranjer> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Law
22:28:16 <AnMaster> Oranjer, too busy to read atm. One line summary of both of them
22:28:34 <Oranjer> Consensus decision-making is a group decision making process that not only seeks the agreement of most participants, but also the resolution or mitigation of minority objections.
22:28:54 <Oranjer> ...organizations which design systems ... are constrained to produce designs which are copies of the communication structures of these organizations.
22:29:07 <AnMaster> the former sounds like the classical swedish model. Less so these days
22:29:33 <Oranjer> well, Consensus Decision Making has each member having the power of veto
22:30:51 <AnMaster> still, traditionally it has been a lot of compromising to make sure no one is completely outraged
22:31:09 <Oranjer> you mean the Swedish Model?
22:31:20 <Oranjer> http://blogs.salon.com/0002007/images/consensus.jpg
22:31:45 <Oranjer> well, Compromises in Consensus Decision Making would (hopefully) be least likely outcome
22:31:47 <AnMaster> Oranjer, that looks scaled down. Hard to read
22:32:02 <Oranjer> it's not scaled down, though
22:33:20 <MizardX> It is small, but not unreadable.
22:33:32 <Oranjer> because it is at the maximum size, and that is the size it is presented as
22:33:36 <AnMaster> MizardX, try it on a high DPI screen
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22:34:03 <Oranjer> http://treegroup.info/topics/Consensus_Decison_Making-CH.pdf
22:34:11 <Oranjer> there's a much bigger image there!
22:34:35 <AnMaster> Oranjer, the conway thing. Expand on that please
22:35:28 <Oranjer> basically, the quality and quantity of communication between any departments/members of a company/team will almost certainly be reflected in the system that that company/team makes
22:35:41 <Oranjer> as in, if a team is working on designing a car
22:36:31 <Oranjer> as in, if two team members have difficulty communicating, then the product they make will reflect such miscommunication
22:36:54 <AnMaster> Oranjer, mhm. Depends on how interconnected the parts they are working on are
22:37:18 <AnMaster> lets say, working on the fans in the car and the radio installation?
22:37:26 <Oranjer> the structure of a system/product will almost certainly reflect the structure of its creator's organization
22:37:39 <AnMaster> where the fans I mean the engine fan
22:38:11 <AnMaster> if they dislike each other it probably won't affect stuff
22:38:24 <AnMaster> while if it was two related systems, yeah, could lead to issues
22:38:39 <AnMaster> and there are no good managers
22:39:01 <Oranjer> well, that's precisely my point
22:39:12 <AnMaster> Oranjer, it seems rather obvious...
22:39:24 <AnMaster> I fail to see why it even has a specific name
22:39:28 <Oranjer> that if Conway's Law is a good indicator of a product's structure, then we should change the organization
22:39:38 <Oranjer> well, AnMaster, it's not obvious to all
22:39:55 <Oranjer> more importantly, of course it'll be obvious to you, once I explain it to you
22:40:18 <Oranjer> Holmes always found that if he explained how he got to a conclusion, everyone would say "oh, that's so obvious!"
22:40:27 <Oranjer> *Sherlock Holmes, of course
22:40:35 <AnMaster> Oranjer, it seems (to me) obvious that people who can communicate better, and are working on a project will have less problems than people who *can't*
22:40:44 <AnMaster> which seems to be all that law says
22:41:01 <Oranjer> not only people, but entire departments
22:41:16 <Oranjer> it's not only communication, though
22:41:54 <Oranjer> if you make two separate departments--air conditioning, and heating--you'd see such a distinction evident in the resulting product
22:42:27 * AnMaster wonders why ls -a ~ lists several hundred files that match /\.serverauth\.[0-9]+/
22:42:38 <AnMaster> some from recently, some from 2006
22:43:04 <AnMaster> ~/.serverauth.6481: X11 Xauthority data
22:43:15 <AnMaster> odd thing that they were left around
22:43:25 <AnMaster> rather than removed when I quit X
22:47:52 <MizardX> CDM would be useless without good communication. The worse the communication, the longer it takes to make a decision, and the lower the ratio of agreed vs unresolved issues. This could explain why the court cases takes so long...
22:51:02 <Oranjer> true, it would be largely useless without good communication
22:51:59 <Oranjer> although, I do not see the connection between "taking longer to make a decision" and "the lowering of the ration of agreed vs. unresolved issues"
22:52:45 <MizardX> bad communication = more people disagreeing, and less chance of those getting resolved
22:53:45 <Oranjer> well then, I guess it would be imperative to provide a structure that encourages good communication, for Consensus Decision Making to work
22:55:01 <MizardX> "a structure that encourages good communication" ?
22:55:52 <Oranjer> well, what's wrong with "we meet every Xday at Y o'clock"?
22:57:53 <MizardX> Maybe repeated meatings. One or two hours a day, until the issue is resolved. That way there wouldn't be so many people wanting to get out, and just agreeing with whatever is presented.
23:00:53 <MizardX> Coundn't that be how they do in the European Parlament (and other big decision making organizations)?
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