00:01:38 * SimonRC goes 00:02:32 AnMaster: btw, re LFS: I might, but I imagine that most of what I pick up will be stuff that doesn't matter due to my design choices (e.g. dynamic linking issues) 00:12:28 11:21:44 why is there a status setting thingy at the top of it 00:12:28 11:21:48 for IM clients 00:12:28 and email. 00:12:39 email has online/offline? 00:12:44 oh 00:12:45 i see, that one 00:12:50 (i thought he meant the messaging menu) 00:12:56 which is linked to it 00:13:12 11:24:20 ais523, argh: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/indicator-applet/+bug/447964 00:13:12 11:24:34 ais523, it seems linked to evolution, But it is in the indicator applet thingy 00:13:13 11:24:42 which iirc is used for other (useful) stuff 00:13:13 The messaging menu IS useful. 00:13:21 11:25:24 it's empathy it's linked to, not evolution 00:13:21 11:25:29 oh, the letter icon 00:13:22 11:25:36 that means new mail arrived, I think 00:13:22 or new IMs 00:13:27 or someone signed in recently 00:13:55 -!- oerjan has joined. 00:14:00 ehird, it isn't like that VM has evolution set up or anything 00:14:04 nor any IM 00:14:08 Just remove it from the panel. 00:14:10 Easy. 00:14:15 No need to uninstall anything. 00:14:17 Right click. 00:14:17 ehird, isn't it used for other stuff? 00:14:20 No. 00:14:22 mhm 00:14:30 The indicator applet is the meessaging menu. 00:14:33 *messaging 00:14:53 Well 00:14:57 "A small applet to display information from various applications consistently in the panel. 00:14:58 The first revision is focusing on messaging applications. The design specification for the messaging component is available at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MessagingMenu/" 00:15:05 So currently it's just for email and IM, but it won't be later. 00:19:15 Is the uber-jackal effect in ADOM too weak? 00:19:28 Yes. 00:21:31 I don't know, if ever, if they will ever release the source-codes for ADOM or not. 00:23:20 AnMaster: Can KDE3 desktops view a special desktop with all desktops combined? 00:23:22 dwm can (Mod+0) 00:23:39 What is dwm 00:23:43 A window manager. 00:24:02 O, now I found it. But at first I didn't have the browser open 00:24:02 ehird, no. Where would one have place for it? 00:24:14 that's... so zzo 00:24:18 AnMaster: What does that mean? 00:24:24 Where would one have place? 00:24:25 What? 00:24:35 ehird, view all? at the same time? on the same monitor 00:24:41 some compiz like zoom? 00:24:50 It just arranges all the windows together in dwm. 00:24:52 I look it seems is not too bad 00:24:58 It would be good 00:24:59 In dwm, tags are as much an organisational tool as a screen extender. 00:25:20 However, still if I write, I would write my own, however. (But I might based on others window managers) 00:25:36 (you can name the tags too) 00:25:47 ehird, it would be hard to see them all? 00:25:51 if there are many 00:25:52 like 00:25:56 Sure, they'd be quite small. 00:25:59 But it's a useful overview. 00:26:12 ehird, so less useful than, say, Exposé? 00:26:20 It's not for the same purpose as Exposé. 00:27:25 oh? 00:27:40 The error is in thinking that a tag is a desktop, instead of a means of organising. 00:27:53 Yes, it lets you organise a windowspace bigger than your screen could handle for using an individual window. 00:28:03 But it's also about grouping related windows, which is why you can apply multiple tags. 00:28:20 So mod+0 is like looking at the "actual workspace" that you're organising: you can see every window you have. 00:28:33 Useful if, for instance, you want to make two windows interact briefly. 00:29:06 Incidentally, dwm is a perfectly capable floating WM too. 00:29:07 ehird, you would like gentoo's init system. Quite sane. dependency based. Doesn't use classical run levels much (nothing you think of as an user). Uses instead named ones. "boot" and "default" only normally 00:29:15 yes still sysvinit but you can replace it 00:29:19 with runit or others 00:29:24 more or less supported 00:29:28 (a proper floating WM that is) 00:30:05 you have to bring windows to the top with the keyboard, but you can mod+drag to move, and it's sloppy focus (hover to focus) 00:30:44 The benefits are obvious — the dwm config lets you set certain programs to appear in a separate workspace and with different layouts. 00:30:52 So you could have a workspace for running the GIMP in floating mode. 00:30:54 Voila, no problems. 00:31:22 (Plus it means ex-evilwm junkies can cope. :-P) 00:31:38 never used evilwm. tell me about it 00:32:05 It's just a very minimalist floating manager with no window decorations apart from a one pixel border. 00:32:11 http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/images/cap1.jpg may ring a bell. 00:32:29 can't say it does 00:32:35 http://www.6809.org.uk/evilwm/ 00:32:39 fizzie used it I believe. 00:33:01 that is the official screenshot? 00:33:08 no wonder it isn't popular 00:33:09 XD 00:37:03 "The launchd daemon is essentially a replacement for init, rc, the init.d and rc.d scripts, SystemStarter" 00:37:05 um yeah 00:37:06 BUT 00:37:09 rc links to 00:37:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_security 00:37:18 what the hell 00:37:29 ehird, ^ 00:37:31 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 00:37:38 dunno 00:37:45 night 00:37:51 make that 00:37:56 night → 00:39:22 Incidentally, I rewrote my silly ii script in rc: 00:39:24 #!/bin/rc 00:39:25 for (line in `{ tail -n 0 -f out }) { 00:39:25 if (echo $line | cut -f4- -d' ' | grep -i rhee\+t >/dev/null) { 00:39:25 echo Ding! >in 00:39:25 } 00:39:26 } 00:39:33 Erm, wait 00:39:35 I need to set ifs 00:39:47 #!/bin/rc 00:39:47 ifs=' 00:39:47 ' 00:39:48 for (line in `{ tail -n 0 -f out }) { 00:39:48 if (echo $line | cut -f4- -d' ' | grep -i rhee\+t >/dev/null) { 00:39:48 echo Ding! >in 00:39:50 } 00:39:52 } 00:40:09 More readable, methinks, than the sh version: 00:40:11 #!/bin/sh 00:40:11 tail -n 0 -f out | 00:40:11 while read line; do 00:40:11 if echo $line | cut -f4- -d" " | grep -i 'rhee\+t' >/dev/null; then 00:40:11 echo "Ding!" >in 00:40:12 fi 00:40:14 done 00:40:23 In fact, I could simplify it further, I think. 00:41:12 Some window managers use alt+drag to move window, but I think only the window manager's key should be used by the window manager. (Which key it is could be configurable in the configuration file) 00:41:25 It's set in config.h with dwm. 00:41:28 Mod is alt by default. 00:41:53 Like, I think the LOGO key should be used by default, but if you don't have that key you could use PRINTSCREEN instead, for example. 00:42:32 Nah, my simplification made it less readable (I changed: 00:42:38 if (echo $line | cut -f4- -d' ' | grep -i rhee\+t >/dev/null) { 00:42:39 to 00:42:48 if (`{ cut -f4- -d' ' | grep -i rhee\+t >/dev/null } <<< $line) { 00:42:50 which is worse.) 00:43:02 I used evilwm, yes; I'm not sure I used it on the main desktop (might have, though), but definitely on that one low-end laptop. 00:43:10 It does the "configure by twiddling the source" thing too. 00:44:21 -!- ehiird has joined. 00:44:22 Well, there's a proper config.h with dwm. 00:44:27 So it's not like you're editing hardcoded things. 00:44:42 rheet 00:44:45 rheeet 00:44:47 aww 00:44:54 It is not too bad 00:45:03 how can you say that without using it? 00:45:10 test 00:47:29 One pixel border is enough (like evilwm and dwm both has). Resizing can be done with wm's key and left button for floating windows, wm's key with right button for tiled windows, and wm's key with middle button to move. For keyboard operation, you can just use wm's key in combination with some other keys (such as arrow keys) 00:48:17 Why have separate buttons for tiling windows only 00:49:00 So that the windows do not have to designated tiled/floating, you can just use them in both ways. So, you can easily switch and stuff however you prefer 00:49:15 Just if you use tiled resize, it will also resize the other windows with adjacent borders too 00:49:23 That's how I would write it, anyways. 00:49:29 There's a sort of a configuration section in evilwm.h too, though it's pretty small and the file contains a lot of other crap, too. Oh, and keyboard bindings are in keymap.h which is pretty editable. (Pretty strangely, though, the combination of modifiers is not configured there, but instead there's a command line flags (-mask1, -mask2, -altmask) to define those.) 00:49:34 Asleep now, though. 00:49:38 In dwm, moving or resizing a window makes it floating. 00:49:55 The only resizing you can do for tiling windows is to make one of the two columns bigger or smaller. 00:50:11 And moving is handled merely by making something either the main window or secondary. 00:50:22 I've never felt the need to manually manage any tiling windows. 00:50:50 OK 00:51:32 It does do mod+right click to resize a floating window, though; never thought to try that. 00:52:48 zzo38: Also, middle button drags are awkward, since it's usually a clickable mouse wheel. 00:53:40 Yes, I know, but I never use the wheel, I only use it to click 00:53:52 I don't like the wheel there 00:53:54 The web is unusable without the wheel. 00:53:58 Or, really, any long document. 00:54:01 Sometimes it is accidentally pushed in one direction or the other 00:54:07 Not if it's a good mouse. 00:54:12 They have good resistance. 00:54:19 No, I use the web without the wheel. I use the page-up/page-down keys to navigate through the document 00:54:38 That just gives me a headache and pisses me off as I try and find where I left off in the last page. 00:54:46 Plus I can't scroll things nicely in my line of sight without a pain. 00:55:26 bah can't sleep 00:55:35 I could drag the scrollbar or use the up/down arrows too if I need more precise scrolling. Another thing I sometimes do, is click and hold the scroll bar and then use either the mouse or keys to scroll, and then move the mouse away from the scroll-bar to return 00:55:37 while read line; do 00:55:37 if echo $line | cut -f4- -d" " | grep -i 'rhee\+t' >/dev/null; then 00:55:40 usless 00:55:42 useless* 00:55:48 set IFS and do it all in read 00:55:52 no need for cut 00:55:53 At least this works in Windows. Not sure about Linux 00:56:00 AnMaster: Um, do feel free to rewrite that with IFS. 00:56:17 ehird, IFS and read -d of course 00:56:18 zzo38: Dragging the scrollbar is the same as flicking the wheel except more of a pain 00:56:31 ehird, I will tomorrow 00:56:38 AnMaster: Congratulations, the Unix philosophy weeps at your desire to make everything in one program 00:57:01 Is it possible to avoid using PAM with recent kernels? 00:57:04 ehird, when coding python I tried to make all functions as few lines as possible. 00:57:12 ehird, PAM is not related to kernel afaik 00:57:13 That's nice, AnMaster. 00:57:17 Not to me. I would rather have a mouse without a wheel if I could get one 00:57:34 zzo38: I'm just saying that you should consider that most people like their wheel before assigning things to the middle button. 00:57:36 and night, *tries to sleep again* → 00:57:37 I prefer to use the middle button as a middle button 00:57:58 Otherwise you have only two buttons 00:58:08 wait what 00:58:19 zzo38: Clicking with the middle wheel is easy. 00:58:23 I use scrollwheel as scrolling and clicking it for paste 00:58:23 zzo38: But clicking and dragging is not. 00:58:24 ... 00:58:30 ehird, indeed 00:58:40 clicking and dragging is hot. 00:58:41 tilting it for scrolling sideways 00:58:42 You just have to avoid middle-click-drag motions, not middle-clicks. 00:59:00 ehird, clicking and dragging isn't *too* hard 00:59:04 a bit irritating 00:59:06 but can be done 00:59:08 It's something to consider. 00:59:45 I can certainly consider it. But, if someone doesn't like the way I wrote it, they can change it themself 01:00:06 oh yeah I bet you will have a config option for it :P 01:00:15 night *tries again dammit* 01:00:16 I don't need to avoid middle-click-drag 01:00:23 Personally I'm happy that I don't need to rewrite every piece of software before using it because compromises have been made for other people. 01:00:35 And thank $DEITY for that. 01:01:17 I use the web without the wheel. Of course, I have mouseless link-following, so it's a bit more usable... 01:02:04 When I write software, it is generally written for groups of people who prefer it this way, including (but not necessarily limited to) myself. And, it can be Free Software/Open Source so that other people can even modify it, too. 01:02:32 The hardest part with a distro is that compiling the kernel is a must to get it going, but you'll need to do it over and over and over and over and over and over again. 01:02:32 There is a large number of various different software 01:02:38 You can find a different software, too. 01:08:32 -!- madbrain has joined. 01:09:00 -!- sierinjs has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 01:10:52 i wish dwm let you name tags at runtime, although it'd probably be a pain to manage 01:19:21 Woot, at works perfectly 01:22:14 Pretty sure using at is kinda overkill for a clock, though 01:22:37 Could just, you know, have a sleeping process 01:22:41 Does anyone actually use at? 01:22:56 Still, at least the script is quite nice: 01:23:01 now=( $(date +'%H %M') ) 01:23:01 h=${now[0]} 01:23:01 m=${now[1]} 01:23:02 01:23:02 if [ $m = 59 ]; then 01:23:03 h=$((h + 1)) 01:23:04 m=0 01:23:06 else 01:23:08 m=$((m+1)) 01:23:10 fi 01:23:12 01:23:14 at $(printf %02i%02i $h $m) < xsetroot -display :0 -name $h:$m 01:23:18 bash /home/ehird/foo 01:23:20 EOF 01:23:44 well, actually, the version the VM is running has no space in the h= line's $((...)), but that's... quite minor 01:25:24 Why do virtual worlds die? 01:25:32 Cybertown, I blame on IVN 01:25:45 AW, I can blame on the insane price increase in 2002 01:26:06 -!- zzo38 has quit ("The next-to-last (and only) movement was a one-voice fugue."). 01:26:13 But why Worlds.com ? They were active in 2001. No price increases, no new limitations on what non-payers can do 01:26:22 Go there now, and there's no one there 01:26:28 because everyone playing them left high school and realised they sucked 01:27:53 It occurs to me that I can't imagine SL living on with maybe only 113 people online at a time 01:28:15 (That's how many people are on AW right now) 01:29:04 SL servers use more computational resources than AW servers (I think). I can't imagine SL staying alive with as few users as AW, or CT, or Worlds.com 01:29:48 soon SL will die too. 01:30:16 ehird, and my fear is that when SL loses members, the servers themselves will shut down. 01:30:23 Everything will be inaccessible 01:30:24 Yes they will. 01:30:36 AW still has (a few) users, the servers are still running 01:30:40 Same with CT, same with Worlds 01:30:55 But I can't see SL surviving in the same way 01:30:55 SL, on the other hand, is a business that isn't on crack and is making money. 01:31:03 The others are steadily draining cash, yum yum. 01:31:07 They'll die soon too. 01:31:10 Eventually. 01:31:37 I doubt that CT, AW, and Worlds take as much money to run as SL 01:31:50 I'd imagine that CT particularly is very cheap 01:32:02 Just a webserver, and an ancient Blaxxun Community Server thingy 01:32:37 (Didn't stop them from moving to a subscription model, turning CT from a thriving community to a ghost town) 01:34:48 Wow, I forgot that xterm had a menu. 01:35:08 * Sgeo has a plan that would allow the AW community to preserve all the buildings for private exploration if AW ever shuts down 01:35:28 Requires a bit of reverse-engineering though.. although it's reverse-engineering that's been done before 01:44:52 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 01:48:52 "I've never quite figured out Google's interface. I just wait for the lmgtfy links." —reddit 01:54:05 * oerjan failed to avoid a facepalm there 01:56:23 ehird, it's a joke... I hope 01:56:36 Sgeo: Did I imply it wasn't? 01:56:49 Why did oerjan facepalm? 01:57:03 Because. 01:57:25 Sgeo: Reflex. 01:58:16 a learned reflex, it would seem, since i never did it before getting here... 02:13:31 yo 02:15:49 wait you physically facepalm? 02:16:11 i didn't know that's also a real life thing, thought it was just a word 02:16:24 http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/i/1582/original/picard-facepalm.jpg 02:16:45 umm star trek isn't real life 02:16:46 ... 02:16:48 fucking nerds 02:17:05 i was giving an example, mr whiney bitch mcbitcherson 02:19:02 WELL EXCUSE ME FOR BEING A FUCKING RETARDED BITCH 02:19:22 NO WAY 02:19:24 I WILL GENOCIDE YOU 02:19:28 GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH 02:19:36 so i have this binary linear code 02:19:37 RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE 02:19:40 right 02:19:41 and? 02:19:53 word length 7 02:20:05 and there are exactly 7 words of weight 3 02:20:21 need to prove 1111111 belongs to the code 02:20:51 i would ask #math but nobody knows anything there 02:20:53 :\ 02:21:02 you'll have to define some terms... 02:21:05 alrighty 02:21:08 linear code? 02:21:17 for a start :D 02:21:23 the code forms a vector space over the field {0, 1} 02:21:39 and weight? 02:21:47 sum of 1-bits for binary codes 02:22:17 this is pretty much all i know about coding theory atm, first homework set... so, tell me if you have ideas. 02:22:57 i don't know about coding theory but i think i understand the question 02:23:48 yes, but i think it's the solution that's the hard part! 02:24:10 well actually that's not always true 02:24:22 so i don't know if there are relevant theorems in your course beyond the obvious xoring things together 02:24:49 nothing relevant yet. 02:25:07 well we've gone over what it means for it to be a vector space 02:25:30 that there's a base... but you probably understand vector spaces, so. 02:25:31 in this case (with {0,1}) it only means you are closed under xor'ing bitstrings 02:25:35 yes 02:25:44 + 0000000 is there 02:25:51 that's x xor x 02:26:06 i mean it's not an empty set 02:26:11 ah right 02:26:18 i keep thinking you can make errors 02:27:06 oh wait 02:27:06 anyway the fact we know there's a base isn't really that direct a consequence of that 02:27:14 hm no 02:27:47 of course if you put them on a matrix and do some elimination, it's trivial, and also if you know anything about vector spaces... but just knowing closed under xor doesn't obviously say "base exists" to me 02:28:15 the problem is 02:28:15 well clearly you can assume those words of weight 3 are a base 02:28:22 "OpenSSL is written by monkeys" 02:28:23 Indeed it is 02:28:27 wait you can? :D 02:28:36 don't tell me why 02:28:39 * oklopol ponders 02:28:48 although you may have to throw away some codes 02:29:18 you will have to. 02:29:24 if there were 7 vectors in the base 02:29:29 it would be the whole space 02:29:39 obviously 02:29:51 hm oh right wait 02:29:59 i was thinking wrong, maybe 02:30:23 about them being a base? 02:30:26 yeah 02:30:46 there can be ones with smaller weight 02:31:32 although for instance you can't have many ones, for instance five ones gives you 10 vectors of weight 3 02:31:58 mhm 02:32:05 oh wait 02:32:10 i tried to do this sorta elimination to figure out the dimension of the space, but that's pretty much as far as i got :P 02:32:34 what i should have said is you can assume your base is contained in those weight 3 codes 02:33:01 err 02:33:11 because throwing out anything not generated by them doesn't make the problem easier 02:33:56 contained how? you mean for each b in the base there's a codeword of weight 3 that contains all b's 1-bits 02:34:11 no, that each b in the base has weight 3 02:34:45 hmm, right 02:36:40 anyway. for a start, xoring two weight 3 codes gives something with weight 2, 4 or 6 02:37:08 hmm 02:37:57 "The code is further proof that C is just a step above assembly. If you pretend it's assembly then the mess is justified ;)" 02:37:57 i've become a c weenie because i felt a pang reading this :( 02:38:21 `define weenie 02:38:29 -!- Jaykul[AFK] has changed nick to Jaykul. 02:38:34 whoa who is Jaykul 02:38:41 ehiird: less panging, more coding theory 02:38:48 aaa someone in ##asp.net. run! run! 02:38:50 IMPORTANT ISSUES TO SOLVE 02:38:51 * frank: a smooth-textured sausage of minced beef or pork usually smoked; often served on a bread roll \ [23]wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn \ * A sausage is a prepared food, usually made from ground meat, animal fat, salt, and spices (sometimes with other ingredients such as herbs), typically packed in a 02:38:52 run from the devil! 02:39:03 HackEgo: correct and useless! 02:39:09 sheesh 02:39:13 not to mention slow 02:40:32 lessee, i think there must be some weight 3 codes whose xor has weight 2 02:40:43 yes 02:41:04 otherwise there is not enough overlap 02:41:29 by renaming, we can essentially only get 1110000, 0011100, 0000111 otherwise 02:41:45 err 02:41:48 no that's not correct 02:42:35 brain is kinda shutting down, should probably consider sleeping 02:43:01 yeah, this looks like a kind of puzzle, really 02:43:57 god i hate the lecturer... well actually he's pretty awesome, tends to say stuff like "well, we have to check why X has property Y... but this is trivial, because obviously Z", and then laughs out loud at how simple it was 02:44:41 so you don't hate him 02:44:50 no, not really 02:45:23 oerjan: it's possible, yes 02:45:51 the lecturer is known for his puzzles no one manages to solve 02:46:17 or no one but me, occasionally 02:46:58 just haven't really developed much of an intuition for coding theory, and i don't know shit about combinatorics, which is a prerequisite for the course 02:47:07 OKLOPOL 02:47:13 talk about something less interesting 02:47:13 (supposed to be a fifth year course) 02:47:22 but... 02:47:23 ...really? 02:47:24 xD 02:47:32 really what 02:47:36 fifth year 02:47:51 oklopol: you do realise that your life will feel worthless as soon as you get your phd (in a few months) and you can't do any university work any more :D 02:47:56 err yes, i take all courses i see, no matter what the prerequisites are 02:48:07 "Noooo! I've wasted my life being productive!" 02:48:48 umm 02:48:54 then i'll start research. 02:48:59 that's university work 02:49:04 and then you die, and then WHAT WILL YOU DO THEN 02:49:06 huh?! 02:49:12 can't do university work if you're DEAD 02:49:18 oh well that is a toughie 02:50:32 * oklopol considers reading the whole material of the combinatorics course in case that'd help solve the exercise 02:52:32 ehird: he'll go to a haitian zombie university, duh 02:52:58 02:53:01 oops 02:53:05 lots of brainwork there 02:53:33 oklopol: are you doing the maximum number of simultaneous courses? 02:53:34 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 02:53:39 ehird: no. 02:53:49 not even in math dep 02:54:04 i'm doing every course i considered even remotely interesting though 02:54:06 oklopol: do a topological sort on the courses so that the prerequisites come first, and sign up for as many courses as you can, then delete them from the list 02:54:13 and twice as many courses as most people do 02:54:14 -!- puzzlet has joined. 02:54:26 you will complete every course in just a few years 02:54:31 as long as you like hard work 02:54:35 now go and get some fucking 5s 02:54:38 GO → 02:55:05 ehiird: except no need to do a topological sort when i can just take courses without taking the prerequisites. 02:55:18 BUT, oklopol 02:55:27 if you know the prerequisites there's a good chance you'll finish a course faster 02:55:32 thus allowing you to do, guess what 02:55:34 another course 02:55:36 faster 02:55:47 so nearing the end you'll be going through courses insanely fast 02:56:02 and then 02:56:07 you know what you have to do? 02:56:11 go to the nearest university 02:56:14 and do it all over again 02:56:24 once you've done all the universities in finland 02:56:29 go to the nearest universe in another country 02:56:31 etc etc etc 02:56:33 and eventually, oklopol 02:56:36 you will know EVERYTHING 02:56:46 and will therefore 02:56:46 be 02:56:49 UNSTOPPABLE 02:56:57 oh well that's a fair point 02:57:01 oklopol: then you can start research. 02:57:26 since you know everything you'll have to rig the setups so that they actually create new truths 02:57:30 which you will then discover 02:58:24 anyway i couldn't be *that* much faster, there are only a few courses i'm not taking, and those mostly are about stuff i already know, plus the master's degree related seminar 02:58:45 the point is that you have to do that to optimise better for the later courses 02:58:46 (not doing my master's this year, unfortunately) 02:58:56 so it's little benefit now, but it actually speeds up in the future! 03:01:01 "The main question regarding the Das Keyboard Professional Model “S” should not be whether it’s a very nice keyboard: it is." 03:01:01 oh shut up it fails at key rollover 03:01:02 ahem 03:02:23 "The Original Das Keyboard Professional lacks media function keys, has only a single USB connector, isn’t compatible with KVM switches, and doesn’t have “Full n-key rollover,” which means that if you mash, say, six keys at once, the keyboard might not register all of them." 03:02:24 yeah and neither does the S 03:03:48 anyway who wants to help me make this distro, you can do all the boring parts 03:03:50 yeah didn't think so 03:03:59 i just want to sleep 03:04:06 i will let you sleep IF 03:04:09 you help me with this 03:04:12 and only then. 03:04:37 anyone here an expert on beta distribution? 03:05:23 i wish my brain worked 03:08:55 * oerjan vaguely recalls the name from statistics. that means no, btw 03:17:35 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:21:05 AnMaster: There? 03:46:09 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 03:50:07 oklopol: I'm an expert on the beta distribution the same way that I'm an expert on the derivative of x^2. 03:50:54 yeah the original das keyboard has a too slow scan I think yeah 03:51:44 The Das Keyboard: TOO F***ING LOUD. 03:54:11 oklopol: so, uh, I guess I would like it if you would ask a question. 03:54:46 das ist kein keyboard 03:55:00 Wow, everyone but oklopol is speaking now. 03:55:16 he probably fell asleep 03:55:36 idle 50 mins 03:56:04 technically i'm still awake, and the beta one is probably not very interesting 03:56:12 *but 03:56:34 would probably suffice for read its characteristics from wp. 03:56:44 but i'm not going to do anything anymore 03:56:45 oklopol: saying that you have a question automatically makes the question interesting. 03:57:16 Gregor: Meh. 03:57:27 Gregor: Model Ms are louder. And Model Fs are even moreso. 03:57:33 dunno, dunno, in any case i'm not going to get the paper, since i'm too tired 03:57:59 Meep. 03:58:00 Gregor: You can get clicky keyboards without the click, though; the Cherry Browns are slightly lighter and with less of a tactile push, but they don't click and are pretty similar to the Blues used in the Das. 03:58:16 Gregor: Of course if you're paying hundreds for a keyboard anyway might as well get a ~$250 Topre >:D 04:01:25 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:02:04 -!- coppro has joined. 04:03:34 I wish there was a way to detect vt100 apps so I could write a terminal that lets you do actually useful shit and changes mode for them. 04:03:35 Sigh. 04:03:58 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 04:04:10 vt100 apps? 04:05:04 apps that reposition cursor, for instance every curses-using app 04:05:09 and other vt100 stuff 04:05:11 colour is okay though 04:05:17 don't need to detect colour usage 04:05:29 apps that make the input raw 04:05:32 so that they get every character 04:05:33 etc 04:06:13 why not just output straight VGA text mode 04:06:27 madbrain: what? 04:06:31 what has that got to do with anything 04:07:09 hmm, I'm thinking in terms of dos apps, sorry 04:07:18 I don't write vt100 apps 04:07:27 I just wish they identified themselves as "hello we are going to fuck with the terminal" 04:07:32 because I want to have a terminal that can copy and paste across lines without copying an actual linebreaks, that can support keyboard shortcuts without mangling them horribly due to applications inside the terminal, that can delete selected text after highlighting it like everything else 04:07:34 etc 04:07:56 and stupid applications like vi and everything that want to shoehorn a complex UI onto a command-line system stop me doing this 04:08:07 so if i could detect them, i could emulate a vt100 like every other terminal and let them take over 04:08:15 and when we drop back to a shell, it could become rich again 04:08:27 but they don't identify themselves, they just go ahead and control it 04:09:10 hmm 04:09:23 what about detecting vt100 escape sequences? 04:09:31 that's one possibility, for sure 04:09:45 but if a program doesn't use one at startup that'd be weird 04:09:50 because it'd come into the normal text view then bam 04:09:55 all the other stuff is gone as it takes over the terminal 04:10:12 make it user selectable then? 04:10:27 Warrigal: you could try to solve the problem i did tell about 04:10:38 madbrain: vt100 apps are pretty common you know 04:10:44 and it'd be a huge pain to have to do that 04:11:03 + perhaps so annoying to outweigh the benefits of being able to assume text 04:11:15 ah, dunno, I'm comming from a world of DOS and windows so that stuff is different for me 04:11:20 otoh, it would let me use the rc shell without bloating it with filename completion and the like nicely, like it is in plan9... 04:11:31 madbrain: i'll try and explain 04:11:34 madbrain: you know edit.com? 04:11:43 so my reference for that is the VGA text mode 04:11:56 oklopol: what problem was that? 04:12:00 ehird: yeah? 04:12:12 madbrain: and you know, e.g. deltree or whatever? a command that prints its status linearly and the like 04:12:17 Warrigal: read logs, wasn't that long ago 04:12:25 right 04:12:31 madbrain: and command.com itself, which is like deltree or whatever but also has user input 04:12:33 the binary linear code thing 04:12:59 madbrain: well, edit.com is like a curses app on linux (which use the vt100 codes to do colours, reposition the caret to output in predefined places instead of linearly, get direct access to the keypresses, yada yada yada) 04:13:00 oklopol: prove that if you have a binary linear code of word length 7 and there are exactly 7 words of weight 3, then 1111111 belongs to the code? 04:13:08 madbrain: and deltree and command.com are like "regular" terminal apps 04:13:10 yes 04:13:15 e.g. vim and emacs without the GUI are ncurses apps 04:13:18 so is irssi 04:13:26 hmm 04:13:52 but then wouldn't most "rich" apps start filling the screen with colors and stuff like that right off the bat? 04:14:04 well, I can handle colours in plain text 04:14:09 but yes, most would indeed 04:14:13 A binary linear code is a code that forms a vector space over {0, 1} where addition is elementwise XOR? 04:14:19 I'm definitely considering it nnow 04:14:21 *now 04:14:30 perhaps I should make a new window for vt100 stuff, too 04:14:34 yes 04:14:35 since it'll act differently 04:14:43 and to let you terminate it etc. via the normal terminal 04:15:03 vt100 is, what, similar to VGA text mode, right? 04:15:33 I'm not sure what you mean 04:15:38 And the "weight" of a code is the number of 1s in it? 04:15:41 vt100 was just an ancient CRT terminal you plugged into a mainframe 04:15:45 you could output text to it like normal 04:15:52 but it also has special things to output that do things like: 04:15:55 set background/foreground colour 04:15:56 (in terms of functionality, not interface) 04:16:01 move cursor (where text is output) up one line 04:16:04 left one character 04:16:07 and 04:16:16 stop buffering text at lines before you send it to me, give me every keypress raw 04:16:18 so i can handle it how i want 04:16:20 that sort of stuff 04:16:32 Warrigal: yes 04:16:56 ehird: right 04:17:06 madbrain: thanks for making me rethink that detecting wouldn't work, btw; I'm seriously considering it now 04:17:22 madbrain: one issue, though, is: how do I know when it's stopped vt100ing? I guess I'll look at the process tree and mark them as vt100ing 04:17:33 so i need to look at processes the shell creates 04:17:36 Well, if the code contains everything it possibly can, it has 21 words of weight 3. I would bet that if you XOR all 7 words of weight 3, you'll always get 1111111. 04:17:40 so this will actually be more involved than your typical terminal 04:18:04 So then it's a matter of proving that for any possible set of 7, for each position, an odd number of the 7 have a 1 in that position. 04:18:22 you could probably maintain a non vt100 and a vt100 state 04:18:57 madbrain: yah, but for most terminals, once the vt100ing program is through, they don't know 04:19:03 they don't handle processes, the shell does 04:19:07 and the terminal just blithely follows the ouutput 04:19:28 Warrigal: what do you mean by 21? 04:19:41 `addquote Warrigal: what do you mean by 21? 04:19:46 :P 04:19:48 Oops. 04:19:55 well, once it goes out of vt100, the special characters would eventually get flushed out of the screen no? 04:19:56 100| Warrigal: what do you mean by 21? 04:19:59 C(7, 3)? 04:20:09 that's 35 04:20:15 hey quote 100 04:20:18 what do you mean by 100 04:20:21 35, yeah. 04:20:22 madbrain: that's true 04:20:39 madbrain: but that'd be even weirder to have it go back; I'm thinking of spawning a separate window for vt100 stuff, since it behaves differently 04:20:55 madbrain: vt100 apps mess up the scrollback (things scrolled off-screen) anyway 04:21:05 since they take over the entire screen, they usually overwrite stuff before themselves 04:21:08 not all of it, just some 04:21:14 so putting it in another window helps that 04:21:36 I wish 35/7 were a power of two. 04:22:25 ehird: well, basically they stop doing vertical scrolling and make the screen into a 2 array, no? 04:22:27 well, tell me if you come up with anything interesting, time to sleep 04:22:29 -> 04:22:33 * Warrigal nods. 04:22:55 madbrain: basically. the problem is that, e.g. if you scroll down in a vt100 app, then scroll up in your terminal, you see the top line of the current scrolling, and then the line before you started it 04:23:10 after quitting, they disappear as if they never happened 04:23:17 it's all very weird 04:24:40 hm 04:27:04 ehird: so it's basically text prompt up to the vt100 app, then vt100 sorta as if it was a virtual screen, except that screen disappears on quitting? 04:27:14 yep... 04:27:20 here, let me tell you what i mean by losing backlog 04:27:39 first I resize my terminal to 6 lines high to demonstrate 04:27:47 [~]$ 04:27:47 [~]$ 04:27:47 [~]$ 04:27:47 [~]$ 04:27:48 [~]$ 04:27:48 [~]$ 04:27:49 [~]$ 04:27:51 i just hit enter until i got a tiny scrollbar 04:27:59 I type in "man rc", hit enter 04:28:02 and it all turns into 04:28:07 [~]$ 04:28:07 [~]$ 04:28:07 RC(1) RC(1) 04:28:08 NAME 04:28:08 rc - shell 04:28:08 : 04:28:12 although there's a blank line after RC(1) 04:28:14 and before the : 04:28:15 stupid irc 04:28:29 anyway, you can see that it's cut off some backlog; it could have cut off a command's outputt in the middle were it there 04:28:31 *output 04:28:34 so I press q to quit, and 04:28:38 [~]$ 04:28:38 [~]$ 04:28:38 [~]$ 04:28:39 [~]$ 04:28:39 [~]$ 04:28:39 [~]$ 04:28:41 [~]$ man rc 04:28:43 [~]$ 04:28:45 it comes back 04:28:48 this is all very weird and awkward 04:28:55 hmm 04:28:56 curses apps just aren't like the command-line 04:29:01 so I want to segregate them to a window 04:29:03 right 04:29:24 and that way i can interpret the rest as regular text 04:29:30 thus making using the terminal with other apps not hellish 04:30:11 well, you could detect ncurses apps and give them a virtual 24 line window inside your scrolling window 04:30:28 yes 04:30:40 but the thing is, that still leads to an inconsistent experience, because now they are trapping your keystrokes 04:30:44 so you lose the keyboard shortcuts 04:30:47 of the terminal 04:30:52 and copying and pasting doesn't work the same, etc 04:31:00 and you can't highlight some text and delete it, say in vim or emacs 04:31:04 because it doesn't work that way 04:31:31 right 04:31:56 plan 9 does this awesomely 04:32:10 if you start a "rich" app (there is no gui/cli distinction), 04:32:14 it takes over the terminal until you exit 04:32:16 then it goes back 04:32:18 the clever thing is 04:32:22 every window in plan 9 is the same as a terminal window 04:32:27 the same text interface, totally malleable 04:32:39 so basically, the text window, you can just print to it 04:32:46 or you can replace it with two text windows 04:32:54 it's made so that a terminal isn't an oddity 04:33:13 unfortunately there's still existing apps in the way in linux. :( 04:34:31 hm 04:35:03 yeah it would take something akin to "video modes" 04:35:43 yeah 04:37:33 well, outputting any vt100 character is implicitly "switch to vt100 mode" 04:37:38 #plan9's hostility is unparalleled: 04:37:38 [03:35] ehird: hmm 04:37:38 [03:35] ehird: does $"`{...} work? 04:37:39 [03:35] soul9: NP 04:37:39 [03:35] soul9: NO 04:37:42 madbrain: yep 04:37:44 but just for that process 04:38:00 so I have to scoop up the previous output, put it in a new window, and redirect the process's output there in vt100 mode 04:38:27 hmm 04:38:45 it would be good if you had a "return from vt100" procedure too 04:39:30 supposing the guy calls a series of apps that switch between the two kinds of apps or something 04:39:49 normally a vt100 would do some cleaning up when quitting no? 04:39:54 nope 04:39:59 in most terminals, it's very simple 04:40:03 the program simply stops executing 04:40:05 and the shell prints its prompt 04:40:07 and you keep going 04:40:09 it's all one stream 04:40:32 hmm 04:40:47 ehird: man termcap, man terminfo. i'm pretty sure there _was_ some "start using escape sequences" sequence in at least one of them... 04:40:50 then obviously you should put your hook into the shell 04:41:20 oerjan: ah, you mean construct my own? 04:41:26 and make the shell activate your "exit from vt100 mode" procedure when starting up 04:41:35 that's how curses applications determine how a terminal works... 04:41:57 sweet 04:42:02 ehird: i was wondering since you kept saying vt100 if you didn't know about it... 04:42:03 (are you sure?) 04:42:08 oerjan: i know about i t 04:42:20 I just didn't realise it let you tell the app to output something when it starts doing funny business 04:42:23 *it 04:42:35 i am pretty sure i vaguely recall it ;D 04:45:28 are there any 132 column apps? 04:45:42 most progs can handle any terminal size. 04:45:53 #!/bin/rc 04:45:53 04:45:54 fn update { 04:45:54 clock=`{date +'%b %-d, %H:%M'} 04:45:54 xsetroot -name $"clock 04:45:54 } 04:45:56 04:45:58 update 04:46:00 while (sleep `{echo 60-`{date +%S} | bc}) update 04:46:02 Clocks are awesome! 04:47:00 hm maybe i was thinking of ti/te in termcap 04:47:10 yeah one of the escape sequences is "reset terminal to initial state" 04:47:53 come to think of it, I should probably make it say -11-01 instead of Nov 1 04:47:59 since I use the number more than the name 04:48:04 and it doesn't tell me the full name anyway 04:48:09 -11-01 is pretty ugly though 04:48:40 heh, that thing's running sleep 59 right now 04:48:45 one thing that's funny is that they hacked a 132 column text mode into the PC, obviously for vt100 compatibility, but they did it really late (like, in SVGA cards) 04:48:50 could have been a perfect 60 if i wasn't a second too late! 04:49:10 hmm, maybe I should add a funge factor of sleeping one extra second, just in case I get it just before the next minute starts 04:49:13 not a big deal though 04:49:20 it's like the weirdest video mode ever 04:49:27 vt100 is 80x24 04:50:25 these docs say that it had a 132x mode, but probably that people didn't use it 04:50:44 yeah 04:51:12 annoying that it's very hard to say "start of next minute" with things like sleep 04:51:17 sleep `{echo 60-`{date +%S} | bc} is ugly 04:51:28 (translation: "Sleep for 60 seconds minus the seconds elapsed in the current minute".) 04:52:50 that's an... interesting way of coding 04:53:02 madbrain: what, the composition of simple commands? 04:53:08 yeah, it's called unix. well, it was called unix in the 70s. 04:53:45 bc is the calculator, echo just prints something out, a | b runs a sending the output to b as it goes, `{...} runs ... and expands its output into the command it's in 04:53:46 rc shell 04:53:52 it'd look like this in the more common bash: 04:53:59 sleep $(echo 60-$(date +%S) | bc) 04:54:03 or, more probable, 04:54:15 sleep $(( 60-$(date +%S) )) 04:54:41 yeah, window's shell isn't good enough for that! 04:55:08 yeah what do you guys do, keep a (non-digital) clock on your desk? 04:55:13 weirdos 04:55:20 -!- fax has joined. 04:55:59 -!- coppro has joined. 04:56:09 dunno, but a .bat file clock sounds like it would be hard to code 04:56:20 dunno if .bat is even turing complete 04:56:30 it has goto, I'm pretty sure it is 04:56:35 and conditionals 04:56:43 plus potentially infinite storage (filesystem) 04:56:48 hmm 04:57:08 madbrain: write a brainfuck interp and see 04:57:11 shouldn't be too hard 04:57:14 yeah ok it might be using some ugly tricks 04:57:39 such as creating new .bat files and running them 04:57:44 :-D 04:57:48 awesome; do it 04:59:43 ( echo import brainfuck, sys & echo brainfuck.run(' '.join(sys.argv[1:])) ) | python 04:59:50 hur hur hur 04:59:55 s/hur $/hur/ 05:02:57 you and your invisible end-of-line spaces 05:03:18 yes. 05:05:08 neither irssi nor the logs contain it, maybe it is stripped by the irc server 05:05:22 hmm, what's the typical length of a dram refresh cycle%? 05:05:33 meaning? 05:06:09 ie how much time maximum between refreshes? 05:06:15 a dram is always refreshing 05:06:19 what is refresh 05:06:37 -!- Pthing has joined. 05:06:40 oerjan: well, if by always you mean every 10ms or some similar value 05:07:09 ehird: dram loses data if you don't regularly read and rewrite it! 05:07:21 *whoosh*. admittedly that word's probably obscure in english, but it exists. 05:07:43 1 a small drink of whiskey or other spirits (often used in humorous imitation of Scottish speech) 05:08:12 madbrain: anyway, something like 10 minutes 05:08:18 is the record for post-shutdown recovery 05:08:21 dunno how modern PCs refresh DRAM... afaik some older ones had an interrupt 05:08:21 more if you cool it 05:10:51 like, afaik, one reason the z80 was popular was that it handled ram refresh for you 05:28:53 aha, 16m 05:28:56 16ms 05:29:14 (from a datasheet) 05:29:24 that is a totally strategic time! 05:30:03 * coppro is a connoisseur of esoteric words 05:32:16 lol conoisseur 05:33:17 :D 05:33:50 I'm a lol conoisseur 05:34:42 madbrain: 16 meters? that's an awfully long time! 05:35:33 not at all, that's very short, ask any relativist 05:35:42 :D 05:36:56 ....Someone forgot where his OWN building was 05:37:32 Days after he showed it to me 05:38:55 that'd be more amusing if it wasn't almost certainly in BobsVeryOwnVirtualRealityCirca1999. 05:40:15 lol 05:40:27 It was in AWTeen 3205.00N 1235.00E -0.01a 0 (Active Worlds) 05:40:49 AW lets you save locations (I'd hate to imagine a place that didn't) 05:41:13 Anyways, I need to go to sleep. Bye all 05:43:22 EVERYONE: Stop fucking using sourceforge! 05:44:56 i find it somewhat difficult to understand how someone could use sourceforge for fucking in the first place 05:45:06 but, rule 34 and all 05:45:21 it doesn't even parse that way, so you fail :p 05:45:26 also, rule 34 is about porn. 05:46:02 i claim it can parse that way 05:47:22 chomsky hates you. 05:47:45 chomsky hates nearly everyone, doesn't he. 05:47:54 who knows 05:49:27 rule 34 is about cartoon porn yeah 05:49:51 no, it's about porn in general. 05:50:29 What's this about porn? 05:50:38 Oh, the rule is just "There is porn of it. Period." 05:51:41 And it's very very true. 05:52:28 very true 05:52:30 well, technically it's about porn in general, but what it mostly means is that it's hard not to find porn of whatever cartoon and that there are many crazy fetishes 05:52:57 madbrain — premier mind-reader since 2009 06:00:44 -!- Sgeo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 06:00:48 rule 1: most artists have drawn some porn 06:01:23 * coppro just had a terrible thought 06:01:23 I'm fairly sure that's not a rule of /b/ no matter what set you use. 06:01:25 corollary: this includes artists that do kids games and cartoons 06:01:28 coppro: unthink it 06:01:43 SF.net porn :/ 06:02:02 Oh yeah, baby, gimme that... bloated download page? 06:05:08 `addquote SF.net porn :/ Oh yeah, baby, gimme that... bloated download page? 06:05:25 101| SF.net porn :/ Oh yeah, baby, gimme that... bloated download page? 06:06:13 I'll badly integrate all your web apps into a slow-loading monstrosity, if you know what I mean ;-) 06:12:00 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 06:13:13 hmm 06:13:41 * ehird spontaneously combusts 06:15:56 I'm looking at DRAM datasheets to figure out how to design a system 06:16:22 -!- Asztal has joined. 06:16:33 madbrain: what are you doing? 06:16:35 it sounds fun 06:18:36 trying to design a system with a cpu, graphics and sound hardware 06:18:45 madbrain: like, custom cpu? fpga? 06:18:53 design your own computer? fucking awesome 06:19:07 possibly all that stuff running from inside a fpga yeah 06:19:20 i absolutely want to do that some day 06:19:35 madbrain: the good fpgas are so expensive though :( 06:19:41 hmm 06:19:46 "good"? 06:19:49 like $500 up; the $200 "evaluation boards" are limited as far as complexity, iirc 06:19:49 as in 06:19:57 each board can only handle so much logic 06:20:02 and the $200 ones don't handle much at all 06:20:07 hmm 06:20:14 you'd have to ask ais523 06:20:17 he's studied this stuff 06:20:34 there's not too much point to a 500$ fpga, I could get a beagle board for that price :/ 06:20:39 yes, actually doing it in hardware costs far too much 06:20:46 how do they know 06:20:54 madbrain: also, the tools to put VHDL or whatever onto the chip are expensive 06:20:56 bsmntbombdood: how do they know what 06:21:02 the apples 06:21:04 madbrain: like "contact us" 06:21:11 bsmntbombdood: what apples 06:21:21 ehird: then I'll probably go for one of those spartan3 evaluation boards or something 06:21:23 madbrain: (for price) 06:21:26 ie the small/limited stuff 06:21:39 madbrain: well, they might come with tools of some sort 06:22:22 well, a design with cache is rather complicated, so without cache there should be some sort of upper complexity limit 06:22:39 the cache of gonads 06:22:47 bsmntbombdood: how do what apples know what 06:23:03 madbrain: make it a microcode interpreter and swap the cpu microcode from registers to RAM :-D 06:23:05 ie probably go for some kind of RISC for the cpu since with only raw DRAM access there's a limit to data access rates 06:23:15 it's pertussis, not infection pneumonitis 06:23:34 ehird: ? 06:23:42 bsmntbombdood: how drunk are you exactly 06:23:51 madbrain: you know what microcode is right? 06:24:00 I'm not familiar with that 06:24:03 my father is swimming 06:24:26 madbrain: basically, modern CPUs don't implement the CPU in the actual electric pathways 06:24:35 madbrain: they have an interpreter for a proprietary microcode, like a RISC architecture 06:24:46 madbrain: and each instruction is coded in it, in super-fast, on-chip ROM 06:24:47 I think it's basically CPU opcodes get expanded to larger processor instruction data inside 06:24:53 yeah 06:24:57 and the processor executes the microcode instead of the instructions directly 06:25:10 so current CISC chips are actually RISC internally 06:25:16 although you can't change it and it's undocumented, so uh 06:25:18 right 06:25:19 good luck doing anything with it 06:25:45 madbrain: ofc, storing the microcode in RAM would be so slow and swapping it to registers is useless since there's so few of them :-) 06:25:46 it was a joke. 06:25:59 I'd like to do a super out-of-order stack reduction based chip but that would be way too large for a fpga :D 06:26:15 madbrain: fpgas can cost up to like $5,000 06:26:19 not many limits with them really 06:26:27 low clock speed 06:26:28 that is way too much money 06:26:33 just saying 06:26:34 :P 06:26:48 also it would require cache 06:26:59 i'm joking man 06:27:08 bsmntbombdood: so uh what was that about apples 06:27:38 but yeah, right now I'm debating on whether to try to take advantage of fast-page/edo DRAM or go for static access cycles 06:28:08 madbrain: please make it something not like the standard risc architectures 06:28:08 thx 06:28:57 why 06:29:03 because they're boring? :D 06:29:05 madbrain: because they're boring. 06:29:07 also crap 06:29:33 crap? 06:29:38 crap. 06:29:51 oh my 06:31:12 i have a glorious beard 06:31:36 like, I'm going through this sdram specification.... this is complicated 06:31:46 bsmntbombdood: eat it 06:31:47 it is food 06:31:55 i don't think so mister 06:31:56 madbrain: i think the fpgas abstract the ram away for you 06:32:01 ais523? 06:32:23 sort-of 06:32:29 variables in the HDL become RAM in the fpga 06:32:46 although sometimes the compiler is stupid and you have to specifically tell it to use dedicated RAM rather than LUT-based RAM 06:33:02 LUT is the complexity unit, right? 06:33:34 yes 06:33:43 you can make one LUT into one bit of RAM 06:33:47 but that's normally really wasteful 06:33:56 so FPGAs tend to come with some pre-built RAM too 06:34:02 ah, but you're talking about in fpga ram 06:34:05 which is SRAM 06:34:28 and typically comes in, what, 16k? probably more or less depending of the chip but still 06:34:36 no more 06:34:45 the $200 boards have like 256 MiB of RAM 06:34:49 or was it like 23 MiB 06:34:55 whatever it was, it was very sufficient 06:34:56 ah but that's SDRAM no? 06:35:01 prolly 06:35:09 that's different! 06:35:15 s/23 MiB/32 MiB/ 06:35:17 madbrain: so :P 06:35:58 on chip ram is static ram and can be addressed pretty fast... cpu caches are SRAM for instance 06:36:26 but SDRAM is DRAM and you have to sorta planify who gets a turn to read from it, etc... 06:36:47 not to mention variable access times depending on type of accesses 06:47:06 like, one possible manner is to make a chip that outputs 320x240 and where everything is based on 400 memory cycles per scanline 06:49:25 from there, if you keep a lid on register space, ROM space, and excessive multipliers, it should be synthesizable 06:49:54 obviously that would give a rather classic, probably amiga-like design 07:00:12 then a fast-page or edo-based design, which would be more 486-y 07:06:06 amiga-like is good! do that. 07:06:20 i'm always a fan of the tied-to-the-CRT-rate stuff 07:16:48 omg guys 07:16:49 in two months 07:16:51 it will be MMX 07:27:53 ? 07:30:25 * oerjan swattit madbrainum -----### 07:30:28 -!- Jaykul has changed nick to Jaykul[AFK]. 07:30:55 MMX! 07:31:21 MMPH! 07:31:48 ok, sdram isn't bad :D 07:32:13 except it has way too many pins :( 07:35:32 -!- coppro has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:41:45 -!- calamari has joined. 07:54:38 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 07:55:28 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:15:27 -!- clog has joined. 08:15:27 "Just one incident: when my Symbolics came, the seller mixed up billing and shipping address and sent it to my home. Had to pick it up at the post office but they sent a customs postcard with the price on it. Well, I had to explain why I would spend "that much" on an old keyboard. After everything was settled I looked at the postcard once more and realized it only showed the shipping costs." 08:18:07 ehird: :) 08:21:00 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 08:21:28 Things to do to make the distro: * Get hardware. * Set up Arch development environment. * Go through the gigantic kernel configuration process. * Write the init. * Figure out what login to use and all that crap. * Figure out what libc to use. * See if LLVM can do a.out, if not, switch from it (unlikely) or get it to work or whatever... 08:21:29 * Figure out what coreutils to use, or write one I guess; port it if it's a BSD one, etc. * Compile some stuff. * Write a package manager. * Compile a toolchain for the toolchain. * Bootstrap shortly after. * Write the rest of this list 08:21:56 man, sdram modules have 168 pins o_@ 08:21:58 At some point some testing would be good, and getting other people to test too... 08:22:08 You guys like testing, right?! Thought so. 08:24:51 (Maybe I can get pikhq to test it by replacing all references to Linux with As-Of-Yet Unnamed Suckless.org Kernel.) 08:25:40 ehird: Eh, I have free time, and am at least curious to see what you come up with. 08:25:55 Wow, it worked before I even did it. 08:25:59 That's some mighty good plan. 08:26:53 I should probably build a box with some medium-common-denominator hardware to get it all working... 08:27:19 Using something high-end is probably a bad idea considering the state of drivers. 08:28:04 I'll have to restrain myself from omitting everything from the kernel that I don't use... 08:28:35 "Eh, who needs disks, anyways? That's what a ramdisk is for, right?" 08:29:35 RAM?! Recent Core 2 processors have 12 MiB of L2 cache, you know. 08:29:43 As for the cache... we did fine with L1 back in the day! 08:30:18 this i7 has what, 8mb of l3 08:30:19 Think about it. The Core 2's L2 cache? It can hold 8.3333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333... fully formatted floppy disks. 08:30:21 WHOAAAAAAAAAAAAAA 08:30:34 bsmntbombdood: yeah and 4x256 KiB of L2 I believe 08:33:33 -!- madbrain has quit ("Radiateur"). 08:33:37 hmm 08:33:48 android's libc (bionic) has no termios 08:34:03 i guess that doesn't really matter 08:37:04 Android implements its own account management, and does not use /etc/passwd. There is no getpwent(), and getpwnam()/getpwuid() are implemented as wrappers around an Android ID service. At present, the Android ID service consists of 25 hard-coded accounts in 08:37:04 ugh, so bionic is quite tied to android 08:37:14 i really wish dietlibc wasn't fucking retardedly gpl 08:37:22 it's clearly the right thing 08:42:47 ah, now i remember why I dumped dietlibc 08:42:48 • The BSD people would not accept it without $LICENSE==BSD (currently: 08:42:49 GPL) 08:42:49 • Then, Microsof t could steal my code to make Windoze less obviously broken 08:42:49 (can’t let that happen). 08:42:59 the author is a fucking loon. 08:43:20 Why is it GPL and not LGPL or BSD? 08:43:20 Because I don’t want to be r ipped of f. 08:43:21 Implicit: "or anyone to use it" 08:44:14 Implicit: "I have less regard for common practical scenarios than RMS." 08:45:03 :D 08:45:17 pikhq: should I go off the deep end and write my own libc, or just use newlib! 08:45:27 the fact that i can ask that question probably signifies I've already gone off the deep end 08:46:11 Oh... um... 08:46:14 pikhq: not newlib 08:46:18 newlib doesn't support linux 08:46:22 Red Hat's newlib 08:46:26 doesn't support linux. 08:46:41 That's, um, what's the word, uhh, stupid 08:46:51 Or, waitt. 08:46:54 Seems they added it. 08:46:55 *wait 08:55:29 pikhq: I can't use uclibc 08:55:40 It's LGPL, so if I link with it I have to offer an unlinked object file 08:55:53 *sigh* 08:56:17 newlib too. 08:56:19 So my choice is either: 08:56:27 Hack up Bionic to work on non-Android and stuff... 08:56:29 or 08:56:30 Write my own 08:58:15 ... 08:58:20 What a crock of shit this is! 08:59:12 Oh, hmm 08:59:18 Apparently most of newlib is BSD-style 09:01:52 ehird: Red Hat bought Cygnus. 09:01:57 Cygnus developed newlib. 09:02:01 Yeah. 09:02:08 Still... 09:02:12 Hopefully newlib should work, though it seems rather stale. 09:02:29 Hmm. Maybe you could port BSD libc? 09:02:30 But it beats hacking up Bionic, which is rather Android-tied (e.g. no /etc/passwd or fstab support) 09:02:38 pikhq: I was thinking about that, and looked it up 09:02:51 http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/lib/libc/i386/ 09:02:56 BEHOLD THE EPIC MORASS OF ASSEMBLY CODE!!! 09:03:08 Admittedly that's just some of it. 09:03:17 Clearly I should have said "Minix". 09:03:50 I thought Tanenbaum was criminally insane... http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/andy_tanenbaum 09:04:35 Anyway, BSD libcs are quite good, but still pretty bad: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/lib/libc/stdlib/atexit.c?rev=1.8.10.1.2.1;content-type=text%2Fplain 09:05:33 Let's see how to compile newlib. 09:06:11 On a brighter note, porting BSD libc to Linux would make porting BSD utils... Trivial. 09:06:46 That's true. What I'd have would look suspiciously like a BSD at the end, though, and they're not without their flaws. 09:06:56 At that point I'd do well to save myself the effort and use their kernel too. 09:11:31 Oh, hey, I forgot about that one. 09:11:48 PDCLib! 09:12:05 pikhq: I could port PDCLib to Linux/a.out if it hasn't been already, very easily. 09:12:20 PDCLib is very minimalist and it's very easy to port it (it was designed for hobbyist OSs). 09:12:41 Unfortunately it's inccomplete... 09:12:42 And C99 09:12:44 *incomplete 09:14:27 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 09:24:25 -!- ehird_ has joined. 09:25:36 * ehird_ compiles an i686 ELF newlib because he's too lazy to set up a crosscompiler 09:27:46 Pretty sure newlib is gcc only, I might try it with clang though 09:29:55 http://www.pfu.co.jp/hhkeyboard/ 09:29:56 Happy Hacking Keyboard Red Control Key! 09:29:59 GIVE US MONEY NOW 09:30:09 Next up: Red "F" key 09:30:14 Red "X" key 09:30:20 Red " key 09:30:27 and 09:30:31 Red power switch 09:30:36 Red USB cable! 09:32:23 Red Alert key 09:32:54 (KEY)RED 09:33:09 09:33:36 grmbl 09:33:49 grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrmbklfgjksfdg 09:33:51 gumball 09:39:32 pikhq: any opinion on how I should handle progs like dwm that have to be recompiled to config? same with the kernel too. i don't want to become source-based 09:39:43 maybe just make it simple to download my build environment for a package 09:39:48 still seems like a pain 09:39:51 since you can't autoupdate etc 09:40:08 -!- calamari has quit ("Leaving"). 09:40:13 -!- ehiird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:40:45 -!- ehird has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:40:46 -!- ehird_ has changed nick to ehird. 09:49:12 GCC, 09:49:15 No standard library, 09:49:19 Static binary, if you please 09:49:24 Yes, include newlib's includes 09:49:27 And my source 09:49:30 Dash of newlibc 09:49:36 And -lgcc because you demand it, dammit 09:49:39 Also name it test 09:49:50 Cannot find entry simple _start, but it's just a warning 09:49:54 To the tune of ./test, 1, 2, 3: 09:49:56 Hello, world! 09:49:59 Segmentation fault 09:50:10 And ls tells me: 163 KiB. 09:50:12 ↑↑↑↑ BEST POEM EVER 09:50:26 *symbol not simple 09:57:26 does anyone know if it's possible to take a linux installation and boot it but tell it to use another binary somewhere else as init? 09:06:06 http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/face_the_nation/ 09:06:08 1974 09:06:12 Each image was then reduced interactively to a 48«48 bit (1 bit per pixel) black– and– white 'ikon. ' 09:06:28 Am I reading the paper that pioneered the terminology icon? 09:14:50 AnMaster: There? <-- now I am 09:14:53 what did you want ehird? 09:15:09 paste the context? 09:15:11 I've forgotten 09:15:13 * AnMaster looks 09:15:24 you help me with this 09:15:25 and only then. 09:15:25 anyone here an expert on beta distribution? 09:15:25 i wish my brain worked 09:15:25 * oerjan vaguely recalls the name from statistics. that means no, btw 09:15:25 * Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 09:15:27 AnMaster: There? 09:15:29 * BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection) 09:15:31 oklopol: I'm an expert on the beta distribution the same way that I'm an expert on the derivative of x^2. 09:15:39 AnMaster: i uh 09:15:39 um 09:15:40 :/ 09:15:41 no idea 09:16:10 ehird, damn you. ;P Searching scrollback for highlight all in vain. 09:17:11 [08:57] ehird: does anyone know if it's possible to take a linux installation and boot it but tell it to use another binary somewhere else as init? 09:17:13 answer that! 09:17:22 ehird, of course 09:17:47 ehird, known last line of rescue is to use init=/bin/busybox at the end of the kernel command line 09:17:55 hmm 09:18:14 I wonder what argv init gets 09:18:15 ehird, wouldn't work very well with an initrd of course 09:18:52 ehird, I'd expect argv[0] to be as usual, the rest none, or kernel command line maybe 09:19:02 I think Arch uses an initrd by default 09:19:07 of course you can get kernel command line easily once /proc is up 09:19:14 ehird, it does. But my arch box doesn't 09:19:22 So, I'd have to futz with it. 09:19:22 grumble 09:19:30 ehird, dropping initrd saved half a minute of boot on my old pentium3 with arch 09:19:41 Nice. 09:19:44 * ehird ponders registering rwx.st 09:20:08 from just over a minute down about 30 seconds. Then later on I managed to bring it down to ~14 seconds by messing around with init scripts 09:20:21 like commenting out parts that weren't relevant to me 09:20:28 oh and disabling automatic module loading 09:20:40 as in, "try to load modules are required" 09:20:47 everything relevant was built in anyway 09:20:51 With my distro getting rid of unused init stuff will be really easy 09:20:59 since you see it all every time you go to enable or disable a daemon anyway 09:21:03 as it's the same operationn 09:21:53 ehird, hm? Oh and since that box is headless all it starts is basically network, sshd, ntpd and nfs server iirc 09:21:55 * AnMaster boots it 09:22:04 AnMaster: as in 09:22:09 there's no separate init scripts/inittab 09:22:15 ehird, oh btw those 14 seconds were from grub. BIOS takes about 14 seconds itself 09:22:20 or 15 rather 09:22:26 so commenting out stuff you don't use is just adding a # before some lines in the file you use to configure daemons 09:22:40 ehird, well yeah. Makes updates a bit messy though 09:22:49 Not really, just adding packages 09:22:53 And that's simple to solve: 09:23:03 # installpkg kde-bloatware 09:23:05 Blah blah blah 09:23:07 oh ffs. Judging from harddrive activity light it is fsck after n mounts time 09:23:09 * AnMaster waits 09:23:11 This package has an init script: 09:23:14 -!- adam_d_ has joined. 09:23:27 /etc/rc.d/kde-bloatware -- start KDE bloatware services 09:23:29 erm 09:23:33 /etc/rc.d/kde-bloatware.start -- start KDE bloatware services 09:23:35 DAEMONS=(syslog-ng network rpcbind nfs-common @iptables @sshd @crond @ntpdate @ntpd @smartd @xinetd @nfs-server) 09:23:36 ah there 09:23:38 /etc/rc.d/kde-bloatware.stop -- stop KDE bloatware services 09:23:39 whatever 09:23:40 you get the idea 09:23:42 a bit more than I remembered 09:23:44 just tell the users to add the lines 09:23:46 trivial 09:23:51 ehird, indeed 09:24:53 I sure will enjoy reporting e.g. bugs to software authors using this distro 09:25:09 author: blah blah blah, this fails when doing etc etc, not sure what the problem is, can you help? 09:25:14 ehird, oh? Mostly due to a.out I assume? 09:25:16 me: ok, what distro are you using? 09:25:20 author: um, $name 09:25:28 me: never heard of it. is it a derivative or something? 09:25:33 author: well... no... 09:25:36 me: gimme a link 09:25:42 author: http://blah.org/ 09:25:42 heh 09:25:54 me: static binaries? a.out? this isn't 1990! 09:25:59 author: hey! they're good because-- 09:26:03 me: sorry, no support 09:26:05 author: ! 09:26:11 ** author has kicked me from the channel 09:26:24 ehird, I very much suspect that some binaries will break if they can't dlopen() stuff. 09:26:38 AnMaster: That's true, but most programs let you disable that crap. 09:27:00 * AnMaster curses.... wrote "pacman -Sy upgrade" 09:27:08 For those that really want programs that don't let you... well, I can have a dynamic linker as a package... but... stay well away if you don't absolutely have to... 09:27:11 at least I didn't mix up portage into it as well 09:27:16 but just apt and pacman 09:27:56 ehird, what browser will you include? I somehow assume that you won't be happy with links or lynx 09:28:09 Probably http://surf.suckless.org/. 09:28:17 WebKit + suckless. 09:28:30 oh and just a vague memory. I think a.out will confuse the hell out of boehm-gc (w3m uses that iirc) 09:28:37 * AnMaster read parts of libgc source 09:28:46 I tried links -g incidenatlly 09:28:49 *incidentally 09:28:51 It's WEIRD 09:28:53 ehird, poor you 09:28:56 Does its own font rendering, I think 09:29:04 menus and dialogs and form widgets are curses-style 09:29:14 It'd be a lot better if it was elinks 09:29:24 fucking annoying to have gigantic piles of list-menus blocking your view 09:29:35 I'd have installed surf into the VM, but Arch broke libwebkit. sigh. 09:29:43 so I'm twiddling my thumbs until they fix it 09:29:52 (known issue.) 09:30:10 ehird, btw that p3 box with arch has a weird issue. If the system is loaded, new ssh connections time out 09:30:16 see, if we had static binaries, software authors could safely supply binaries they know will work :P 09:30:18 loaded here means CPU or network load 09:30:20 but not disk load 09:30:24 on almost any system 09:30:28 with no dependencies 09:30:35 whee, packages got updated 09:30:41 install install install. i live for nothing other than to update packages. 09:30:59 like all these lib*s i'm getting here. wouldn't need them with STATIC BINARIES DID I MENTION STATIC BINARIES :P 09:31:01 ehird, you know python will break badly by this? 09:31:12 AnMaster: Fairly sure it won't. Care to justify? 09:31:19 ehird, all loadable C modules will break. 09:31:21 they are *.so 09:31:27 and they aren't *that* uncommon 09:31:39 I'm something like 47% sure I could link them in. 09:31:58 ehird, yes you could. But then you would need to rebuild python to add a new one 09:32:13 Yes. Just like the kernel. 09:32:21 Here's an idea. 09:32:33 C modules are packages that install .as to a directory somewhere. 09:32:42 And the builder script just links in them all. 09:32:46 Same with kernel modules. 09:32:58 That way you can install/uninstall modules, and just flip the buildkernel binary or whatever and it'll all work. 09:33:07 The modules are implemented at the package level, effectively. 09:35:51 -!- oerjan has quit ("Zzzz"). 09:36:59 hm 09:37:12 Of course, it is annoying. 09:37:20 The kernel can be fast to build, Python not so much. 09:37:31 ehird, would need some adjustments to the binary linking. But quite possible in theory yes 09:37:33 And definitely slower than downloading a binary on a fast connection. 09:37:38 Plus it's a pain for the user... 09:37:40 ehird, oh and X... X loads drivers and such as *.so 09:37:52 would need to patch X quite a bit 09:37:53 AnMaster: Yeah, pretty sure you can link those in. 09:38:28 ehird, with python it is easy to (just change the C code a bit so it looks like those modules already built into python) 09:38:37 with X I suspect it needs some more work 09:38:54 you have to patch it? 09:38:57 urgh 09:39:32 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 09:39:41 ehird, python? well yes think so. So that the module is initialised the right way. Some minor adjustments only. Possibly adding to some array of modules in the main python binary (not sure about that bit) 09:40:17 Maybe I can write a fun stub dynamic linker that does some sort of unholy hack using processes... 09:40:24 As in, an .so is a binary, and it spawns it... 09:40:31 ...on the other hand that would be unholy 09:40:38 ehird, shared memory mess? 09:40:39 hm 09:40:53 doesn't *.exe and *.dll have different address spaces on windows iirc? 09:41:03 and you have to hack stuff when you want to share things 09:41:33 dunno 09:41:55 Oh 09:42:02 I remember what I was going to ask you, AnMaster 09:42:05 oh? 09:42:12 AnMaster: is it possible to compile a gentoo system using static binaries? 09:42:57 ehird, unknown. But since portage is in python I see a potential problem right there. 09:43:14 Compile static binaries != omit dynamic linker 09:43:18 == pass -static to everything 09:43:33 AnMaster: does it still take 24h to compile everything? 09:43:48 ehird, true. But you can't easily mix dynamic linking and static linking iirc 09:44:05 Yes you can. 09:44:09 ehird, depends on hardware. Haven't done a clean install of gentoo for ages. 09:44:10 a -static binary can easily dlopen(). 09:44:16 Hardware is... a VM. 09:45:12 ehird, it won't be as fast as installing ubuntu of course. And it will require user interaction in many parts. Unless you use that "not really newfangled any longer" GUI installer. Which I never tried. 09:45:15 not sure how it works 09:45:37 I don't mind interaction, but if it takes 4 hours or more I'm pretty much not going to bother. 09:45:53 other people complained it was laughably bad in the beginning. I assume it improved 09:46:03 ehird, depends on how much system you want 09:46:14 full blown KDE? 09:46:29 or bootable system without X? 09:46:49 Small kernel (but I don't want to configure it manually), hopefully with no initrd or anything, networking, X11. 09:46:52 That's pretty much it. 09:49:10 2.1ghz core 2 duo, 1 gib of ram, pretty boring vm/host really 09:52:05 ehird, manually or auto with initramfs are the options iirc 09:52:19 unless genkernel nowdays can generate without initramfs 09:52:20 Fine, I can do that. 09:52:25 So how long would it take, roughly? 09:52:36 <4 hours, <10 hours, <24 hours, <48 hours? 09:52:39 ehird, was that "no X" or "with X"? 09:52:44 With X. 09:53:05 Drivers supplied by VirtualBox, nothing else needed apart from vesa to bootstrap. 09:53:15 hm. assuming a system with dual quad core Xeon CPUs? 09:53:30 [09:49] ehird: 2.1ghz core 2 duo, 1 gib of ram, pretty boring vm/host really 09:53:40 right 09:53:45 7200 rpm disk :P 09:54:09 ehird, could be less than 4. Definitely less than 6 at least. 09:54:25 unless things got a lot more bloated since 2007 09:54:45 how big are dem livecds i wonder... 09:55:09 ehird, classical command line stage3 install would only require minimal cd. which is around 100 MB for x86_64 09:55:20 lol, a livedvd 09:55:29 ehird, oh btw if you got for multilib x86_64 it will probably not manage in less than 4 hours 09:55:38 i wonder what exactly they have on that monstrosity over ubuntu's 700 megs 09:55:43 livedvd, sheesh 09:55:46 ehird, source? 09:55:50 LiveDVD (released Oct 10, 2009) 09:55:51 (up to 2.6 gigabytes depending on arch) 09:55:51 amd64 x86 09:55:53 http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/where.xml 09:56:39 ehird, minimal install + stage3 install following manual 09:56:42 is what I would do 09:56:54 like "LFS light" I guess 09:56:59 stage3 has compiled stuff doesn't it 09:57:17 ehird, stage3 is enough base system to compile new stuff 09:57:29 so, not static binaries then 09:57:37 but if you are going for static it will likely take longer, due to having to figure out how. 09:57:52 some packages do have an useflag "static" 09:57:58 CFLAGS=-static 09:58:03 the chainsaw maneuver 10:00:46 ehird, sure. I won't be surprised if things break 10:00:48 like glibc 10:00:55 not sure about other libcs 10:00:58 never tried 10:01:32 bleh 10:01:33 no point with all that 10:01:37 I'll just jump straight to my distro 10:02:17 it won't be hard 10:02:26 as soon as I have a kernel and an init it can be booted 10:02:30 -!- adam_d has joined. 10:02:46 but... I need hardware first 10:03:00 because VMs reaaaaaaaaaaaally aren't real world 10:04:36 anyone got an old computer they want to give to me? :P 10:04:52 ehird, why not use your mac? 10:05:14 one because the cognitive dissonance of such an environment on the quite frankly pretty opposite iMac would probably break my brain 10:05:22 two because the damn EFI would be bigger than my distro!* 10:05:24 *exaggeration 10:05:34 three because i don't want to deal with EFI and crap 10:05:44 four because eh 10:05:49 I can't swap the hardware easily 10:05:55 I can't test whether new hardware works or whatever 10:06:12 can't swap an SSD in to test performance 10:06:12 etc 10:07:08 plus 10:07:15 everyone else is going to be running this on pc hardware 10:07:21 and i want to minimise my pain 10:08:46 besides, the silent pc tinkerer in me still hasn't found release 10:09:45 -!- adam_d_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 10:12:23 ehird, heh 10:12:38 ehird, so you were the guy that said "Hi! I'm Linux"? 10:12:59 except you pretended you were the Mac guy 10:13:09 lol 10:13:15 http://dmartin.org/files/Mac_linux.jpg 10:13:39 ehird, one of several variants of it 10:13:44 yeah 10:14:58 anyway I'm kinda reluctant to call it a linux distro because when i say linux distro i get a clear picture and my head and mine isn't it... 10:15:29 ehird, it would be a linux distro 10:15:30 ("almost certainly cookie-cutter" and "all the general 'modern' crap") 10:15:32 AnMaster: yes 10:15:33 just not a GNU/Linux one 10:15:37 touché 10:15:42 that's a good way of explaining it 10:16:01 ehird, it is kind of the inverse of Debian/BSD in a way 10:16:06 heh 10:16:40 ehird, what will it be called? 10:17:01 man, I'm terrible at names... 10:17:08 microdon linux? 10:17:13 haha 10:17:27 midget linux 10:17:32 heh 10:17:42 monolith (ooh that's a good one) 10:17:45 (not very googlable though) 10:17:54 monolix.. aw, it's taken. 10:18:01 monolux is too 10:19:47 I wonder what my install procedure will be like 10:20:30 Probably just "use the package manager to install the packages inside the empty partition" for the most part. 10:20:32 How boring. 10:20:41 (netinstall only) 10:23:32 ehird, microlith? 10:23:43 Hey, that's an acttual existing thing. 10:23:47 really? 10:24:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microlith 10:24:41 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 10:24:50 huh. 10:26:00 anyway, no point thinking about a name now 10:26:06 true 10:26:20 I'll probably call the init something lame like ehird's init anyway 10:26:22 ehird, git is too bloated for this btw. I suggest rcs 10:26:28 And the package manager might have its own name 10:26:45 AnMaster: Heh. 10:26:52 Methinks git is not bloated. :P 10:27:02 ehird, sec 10:27:42 85616 /usr/bin/rcs 10:27:47 945520 /usr/bin/git 10:27:49 that is bytes 10:28:10 You forgot the few git-*s! 10:28:15 hm seems like rcs consists of several binaries too 10:28:24 git-cvsserver, git-shell, you know, all these things. 10:28:26 ehird, I thought they were symlinks or such? 10:28:26 AnMaster: Yes. 10:28:28 Many binaries. 10:28:33 Also, that was abolished. 10:28:37 These are just auxillary tool,s. 10:28:41 *auxiliary 10:28:43 *tools 10:29:08 $ qlist git | wc -l 10:29:08 690 10:29:12 $ qlist rcs | wc -l 10:29:12 30 10:29:26 Oh shush you. 10:29:43 ehird, half of the git files are in /usr/share/doc anyway 10:29:51 at least half 10:29:53 All that pesky documentation. Just bloat! 10:30:00 ehird, exactly! 10:30:10 half of rcs is docs too 10:30:12 Use your MIND to understand it. 10:30:15 just that half is much smaller half 10:30:36 $ qlist rcs | grep -v /usr/share | wc -l 10:30:37 11 10:30:40 ehird: RE: static Gentoo. 10:30:41 $ qlist git | grep -v /usr/share | wc -l 10:30:41 157 10:30:49 You could back in 2005; the profile for that is no longer maintained at all. 10:31:05 Dropped along with uclibc support. 10:31:15 pikhq: Bastards. 10:31:29 Yeah; I'm kinda upset about it too. 10:31:30 $ qlist rcs | grep -v /usr/share | xargs du -bh --total | tail -n 1 10:31:30 6,4M total 10:31:33 $ qlist git | grep -v /usr/share | xargs du -bh --total | tail -n 1 10:31:33 11M total 10:31:43 ehird, git is bloated. Even excluding docs 10:31:51 (and possibly other non-docs in /usr/share) 10:31:58 ... Git does a lot more than rcs. 10:32:03 pikhq, yeah of course 10:32:04 pikhq: I have to wonder if any user or developer ever really wanted dynamic linking before some crazy guy added it. 10:32:07 but that wasn't the point here 10:32:09 AnMaster: wow, rcs is that big? 10:32:12 git is that small? 10:32:19 that's a really tiny difference considering how much better git is 10:32:53 ehird, 13 MB with the compressed docs in /usr/share 10:32:57 gentoo uses lzma it seems 10:32:59 rcs is like the worst revision control system that actually does the job of a revision control system... 10:33:09 must have been a recent change 10:33:10 AnMaster: Gentoo uses whatever PORTAGE_COMPRESS is set to. 10:33:12 was bz2 before 10:33:14 You're being too kind to rcs, pikhq. 10:33:15 pikhq, true 10:33:22 pikhq: Consider. 10:33:25 CVS is actually better than RCS. 10:33:28 pikhq, worse than visual sourcesafe? 10:33:43 AnMaster: do you just have an internal macro that uses anything microsoft as a lowest common denominator? 10:33:50 They may have changed it in the 10.0 profile; I dunno, I set PORTAGE_COMPRESS to lzma quite a while ago. 10:34:11 ehird: RCS does the job. *Barely*. 10:34:21 pikhq: Yes, but, you know how bad CVS is? 10:34:25 Absurdly. 10:34:26 pikhq: CVS was AN IMPROVEMENT on RCS. 10:34:29 Think about that. 10:34:46 ehird, not a macro. it is a 10:34:53 form iirc? 10:35:04 Someone written in Lisp would never code in Bash and C. 10:35:07 ehird: I'm saying that the only things worse than RCS are adhoc shared directories with "branches" consisting of "renaming files" and crazy shit like that. 10:35:21 ah 10:35:23 special form 10:35:24 it waas 10:35:30 Your aa key is stuttering. 10:35:35 yeah 10:35:36 it is 10:35:43 Either that or your a key actually has "aa" printed on it, which would be lulzy. 10:35:55 cp foo "fooBar";cp foo "baz/foo"; # There's revision control! 10:36:17 "cp" "foo" "foobar" 10:36:23 Useless use of quotes award! 10:36:28 ehird, my finggeerrs are ccoold. 10:36:44 shatttering finger nails I gueesss 10:36:47 ehird: I typed that in meaning to use spaces and didn't use spaces. 10:36:54 AnMaster: Put the damn heating on. 10:37:00 ehird, it is on. 10:37:04 Turn it up. 10:37:45 ehird, how do you turn a fireplace up? 10:38:02 (j/k, both the electric heater and the fireplace are "on") 10:38:14 How cold is it indoors in Sweden?! 10:38:23 Surely those would be enough to warm any room. 10:39:03 ehird, house built in 1907. Sure it has been upgraded since then. But still, not quite the same as a modern house 10:39:18 Yes, but really, those would be enough to warm a 5 C room. 10:39:24 Maybe. 10:39:30 ehird: How warm of you. 10:39:43 ehird, I estimate it is around 17 C indoors atm 10:39:55 I bet people in Nordic countries are actually warmer than e.g. Brits, because they always have heating on. 10:40:00 (indoors) 10:40:24 ehird, not during middle of summer 10:40:29 Well, yeah. 10:40:31 say, june-august 10:40:35 But your summers are probably better than ours. 10:40:37 in these parts of Sweden 10:40:44 We get, uh, rain. 10:40:47 Maybe a few days of sun. 10:40:50 maybe only July in north Sweden 10:40:56 ehird, we do get *some* rain too 10:40:59 Brr, subarctic climatee. 10:41:01 *climate 10:41:07 but UK always get rain 10:41:08 It's like bipolar disorder for weather. 10:41:29 HEY THIS SUMMER IS PRETTY COOL 10:41:34 wow it is winter and my toes fell off 10:41:37 repeat ad infinitum 10:42:00 also, the sun becomes retarded 10:42:06 "ima stay up here for dayz" 10:42:16 "but but i dont wanna get up for like. a day" 10:43:33 Incidentally... 10:44:00 You could make a passable multitouch surface with some patterned glass and a webcam chip. 10:44:08 Quite easy to detect a hand. 10:44:15 And fingers, with an appropriate pattern. 10:44:45 ehird, "a day"? 10:44:50 more than that in Kiruna 10:45:04 Yeah, it's like night and day for months in subarctic climates. 10:45:09 like a few months during summer all up and some months during winter all down 10:45:11 Horrible. 10:45:33 Although... 10:45:35 ehird, quite cool to see the sun going around to the north instead of setting 10:45:39 as a tourist I mean 10:45:43 wouldn't want to live there 10:46:02 The daylight parts + everyone adopts Uberman = HAHA WE ARE TOTALLY TWICE AS AWESOME AS YOU 10:46:05 * AnMaster has been up there during summer 10:46:20 "We're just up. Almost continuously." 10:46:25 "Day. Forever." 10:48:20 nah 10:49:13 Why nah? 10:50:14 people sleep during the time that would have been night 10:50:30 I know, but if everyone did adopt Uberman, it would be colossally awesome. 10:50:41 that is. when the sun is standing in north 10:52:20 -!- oklopol has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 10:52:21 Fun thing to do: Mirror entire compilation setup for my distro, type "mk". Watch every package in the whole distro compile. 10:52:29 Wheeeeeeeeeeee 10:52:50 ehird, in parallel? 10:53:12 does mk support -j (or equivalent) 10:53:14 ? 10:53:21 Yes: 10:53:27 * AnMaster imagines a cluster 10:53:43 "The environment variable $NPROC determines how many targets may be updated simultaneously; Some operating systems, e.g. Plan 9, set $NPROC automatically to the number of CPUs on the current machine." 10:53:43 ibm roadrunner. How many seconds will it take? 10:53:56 How about Blue Gene, which runs Plan 9? 10:54:06 ehird, heh good idea 10:54:07 Anyway, I don't know. Less than a minute for sure. 10:54:14 Maybe more if you include KDE ;-) 10:54:28 Anyway, I hope I don't outgrow having to compile every package myself... 10:54:44 I doubt I'd be able to get people to contribute server resources. 10:54:51 ehird, yeah. some stuff can't be done in parallel. Like when you have to generate the source file for something else (think: flex, bison, ...) 10:55:41 ehird, predition: you won't be the next ubuntu 10:56:07 Quite. 10:56:32 I don't expect more than, say, 100 users for a long time. 10:56:39 Even that's pushing it. 10:56:45 ehird, I'd expect ~1 user 10:56:52 I don't think that's true. 10:56:53 plus a few that tries it out 10:56:58 and then goes elsewhere 10:57:10 I'll be pretty committed to maintaining packages. 10:57:16 ehird, well. zzo could have used it. But he will likely make his own as well instead 10:57:18 And there isn't really anything like it. stali is the closest. 10:57:24 rather than using your 10:57:32 AnMaster: zzo doesn't innovate, though... he just reinvents at the same level. 10:57:37 He doesn't do anything new. 10:57:41 true 10:57:49 ehird, and adds options to it 10:57:49 Uh, no offence if he's reading this. 10:57:52 to set window title 10:58:06 Here's a good option: "Name of this option" 10:58:12 It's a string, defaults to "Name of this option" 10:58:17 heh 10:58:31 [X] The state of this option 10:58:57 mhm 10:59:45 I imagine if I posted it on the Arch Linux forums I'd get some users, even if only temporarily. (But I don't really like the crowd there.) 10:59:58 And I'm not masochistic enough to create busywork for myself like that. 11:00:10 ehird, unlike your mom 11:00:20 Uh-huh. 11:00:21 (too good chance to miss) 11:00:48 no offence meant of course 11:01:53 (heh "no offence meant" after a your mom joke really makes no sense) 11:02:27 Guess who else really makes no sense? 11:02:28 Hitler. 11:02:33 (No offence) 11:03:24 :P 11:08:22 I wonder how much stuff compiles with libc5. 11:08:57 ehird, why libc5? 11:09:13 I'm not suggesting glibc 11:09:20 just something modern 11:09:23 Last non-glibc release. I was just curious. 11:09:25 like uclibc or something 11:09:44 or porting BSD libc? 11:09:56 (actually scratch that) 11:10:15 uclibc is lgpl 11:10:22 okay 11:10:25 so I can't distribute statically linked uclibc binaries, 11:10:28 without also distributing an unlinked .o 11:10:32 = not happening 11:10:36 ehird, what will you use instead of bison? 11:10:43 and flex 11:10:44 Um, yacc. 11:10:46 ah 11:10:48 right 11:10:55 Of course if some stuff depends on either they can have it,. 11:10:58 *it. 11:11:09 ehird, iirc ick does 11:11:15 ais523, isn't that right? 11:11:22 Anyway, my only existing options are Newlib and Bionic (Android's). 11:11:39 Bionic doesn't support /etc/passwd or fstab and their user stuff is hardcoded and stuff, but with hackery it would make a nice BSD-licensed minimalist libc. 11:11:41 ehird, or porting netbsd libc 11:11:46 But still, it's always going to be dictated by Android. 11:11:54 Newlib is stale but, I think, acceptable. 11:11:57 It feels very meh, though. 11:12:02 And I don't like Red Hat. 11:12:07 AnMaster: ick depends on a yacc-like and a lex-like 11:12:08 AnMaster: That is one option. 11:12:13 I don't think they have to be bison and flex specifically 11:12:16 AnMaster: It'd be a lot of work, though. A lot. 11:12:22 They use lots of BSD-only stuff. 11:12:28 ais523, wasn't it some infinite lookahead for '. or something like that? 11:12:36 * AnMaster forgot the details of that parsing issue 11:12:38 AnMaster: And BSD libc and BSD kernel are even more tied together than BSD kernel and BSD userland. 11:12:52 I don't like being dictated by the whims of the developers of the BSD, y'know? 11:13:01 ehird, true 11:13:03 ehird, your own libc? 11:13:19 I'm no good at optimisation. 11:13:29 oh? 11:13:41 why not 11:13:44 Dunno. 11:13:54 Anyway, maintaining a compatible libc would be a metric fuckton of work. 11:13:59 Enough to build a small company around. 11:14:01 true 11:14:25 dietlibc would be so, so perfect if only its author wasn't a lunatic who GPL licenses it to stop Microsoft stealing it *sigh*. 11:14:38 ehird, what architectures will you support? 11:14:47 i686 11:15:09 no 64-bit? 11:15:09 before you ask the answer is compatibility 11:15:17 i said that before that appeared on my screen :) 11:15:31 ehird, reverse order here :P 11:15:38 diff by one sec 11:15:42 well 11:15:47 I don't have sub-second timestamps 11:15:47 anyway, 64-bit doesn't really have any advantages apart from registers 11:16:00 it uses the PAE hack just like you can do in 32-bit, so no advantages for lots of memory 11:16:01 ehird, and with more than 4 GB RAM. 11:16:05 PAE 11:16:06 ehird, wrong 11:16:10 PAE is for kerne 11:16:11 kernel* 11:16:21 user space can't have more than 4 GB in one process 11:16:24 well, sure 11:16:40 that's a pretty edge user case. 11:16:59 ehird, currently, sure 11:17:18 when it becomes common I'll flip some switches and make it 64-bit only 11:17:25 (processes using over 4 GiB) 11:17:50 ehird, and imagine working with IPv6 ips. dividing two of them on 32-bit needs a lot more operations than on 64-bit (no clue why you would do that though) 11:17:50 AnMaster: anyway clearly the larger filesystems and higher ram usage cause the need to use >4 GiB, 64-bit is inverse-of-self-defeating ;-) 11:18:11 IPv6 is divided into blocks 11:18:13 ...literally 11:18:18 true 11:18:35 you can, for instance, get all addresses divisible by 39853948 11:18:36 :-P 11:18:42 *note: total lies 11:18:55 err yeah total lies 11:19:17 but what then did you mean by blocks. Not same as I was thinking about presumably 11:19:23 i'd like to watch a totally serious documentary that isn't outrageously absurd, except the only problem is it's filled with things that are total lies 11:19:26 simply not true 11:20:00 ehird, if it wasn't outrageously absurd, idiots would think it was true 11:20:05 thus no one dare produce that 11:20:23 Just put "Note: All of the following contents are full of complete lies." at the start :P 11:21:02 ehird, no one would see that, everyone would think it was the usual "you may not copy, lend, watch or touch this dvd blah blah" 11:21:13 Then that is their problem. 11:21:53 (that was an example of outrageously absurd btw) 11:23:00 I think newlib is my best option for now 11:27:24 dddfs 11:28:36 a while back i wrote 2/3 out in full peano set theoretic notation 11:28:45 all {{{{}}}{}{}{}{{}}}, rhythm 11:29:01 well yesterday i got round to turning that into music 11:29:26 so { goes up a n-tatonic tone, } goes down, a comma is a pause and so on similarly 11:29:34 huh 11:29:43 http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/halfsecrests5-tet.mp3 11:30:16 it is surprisingly (except not because it's pretty richly structured) melodic 11:30:21 Pthing, peano set theoretic notation? *googles* 11:30:36 yeah 11:30:36 http://lebesgue.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/two-thirds-of-nothing/ 11:30:37 x_x 11:31:04 Pthing, that seems to be a rather verbose notation in any case 11:31:09 the integers are constructed as an equivalence set of ordered pairs of naturals 11:31:41 and 2/3 with a dedekind cut using integers 11:31:52 Pthing: i like this mp3 11:31:58 Pthing, how long is it? 11:32:03 uh, 20 minutes 11:32:08 Pthing, wow 11:32:14 there are shorter versions 11:32:16 says the classical listener. 11:32:35 ehird, usually you get around 10 minutes at most, unless it is Mahler. 11:32:46 this is more Gregor-esque 11:32:50 in length 11:32:54 so what 11:33:10 http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/onetwentiethat200hz.mp3 is 5 minutes for example 11:33:19 and considerably more manic, especially given it doesn't have rests 11:33:21 Pthing: i'm listening to this and all three of my neurons dedicated to saying "hey is this philip glass" are firing ontinuously 11:33:26 it's also not on any musical scale 11:33:27 Pthing, there is some bas sound in the bg? 11:33:30 ehird, yes, it's uncanny 11:33:31 Pthing, of the first one I mean 11:33:38 *continuously 11:33:50 AnMaster, two sources of gunk because I hacked it together quickly 11:33:58 the "rests" are actually 25 hz tones 11:34:18 the clicking is because when it adds tones, it just writes them sequentially, so it's all very cuspy 11:34:29 hence you get a clicking at every note, but I think it helps 11:34:30 Pthing, why not silent rests? 11:34:35 * ehird pauses to listen to the 5m one 11:34:37 AnMaster: wuick hack 11:34:39 as he said 11:34:41 mhm 11:34:41 *quick 11:34:52 i put it to 1 but something horrible happened 11:35:07 non-euclidean horrible? 11:35:08 http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/onetwentiethat200hz.mp3 isn't very good. :P 11:35:18 well see it's not even scaled 11:35:30 it just turns the frequency up or down 200 hz linearly 11:35:37 ah indeed 11:35:41 doing it on a chromatic scale is also weird 11:35:42 http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/onetenth12-tet.mp3 11:35:44 because boring 11:35:55 but it sounds a little like The Flight of the Bumble Bee 11:36:00 * ehird lols 11:36:18 Pthing, ghostly theme on hyper speed? 11:36:30 for the last one 11:36:32 what's the ghostly theme 11:36:51 Pthing, thing SNES RPG or such. Ghost wood. the theme there. 11:37:01 where SNES RPG is any generic SNES RPG 11:37:05 (almost) 11:37:07 i don't know it, but I see your point 11:37:22 the philip glass thing is a good point 11:37:39 if it were orchestrated properly, it would sound surprisingly good for all that it is entirely algorithmic 11:37:43 Pthing, why not use midi btw? 11:37:57 because I've not worked out how to get python to do midi yet 11:38:01 hah 11:38:22 whereas getting it to write sine waves to wav is a matter of stealing code from somebody's blog 11:38:40 Pthing, http://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonInMusic ? 11:38:43 first google hit 11:38:54 yeah, i looked all that up 11:39:18 but i figured also i might as well just do bleep bloop sine waves to see if it was worth making it prettier 11:39:54 http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/halfsecrests5-tet.mp3 settles into a beat after a while 11:39:56 a sort of rhythm 11:40:03 Pthing, using silence for pauses might work better. Not sure though 11:40:06 like, the repetition has abstracted away into a rhyythm 11:40:08 *rhythm 11:40:19 AnMaster, well undoubtedly yes 11:40:31 I like the little pats 11:40:37 click things 11:40:39 but duller 11:40:42 don't fix them :P 11:40:44 Pthing, especially since I have good enough headphones to hear those 25 Hz tones quite clearly 11:40:48 me too 11:40:51 AnMaster: lowpass 11:41:06 ehird, hm? 11:41:08 yeah i probably ought to try that 11:41:10 let's see 11:41:14 run it through a lowpass filter 11:41:15 but the clicks 11:41:16 at 25 Hz 11:41:24 ehird, I'm just doing: $ mplayer http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/halfsecrests5-tet.mp3 11:41:30 So don't, ffs. 11:41:32 would be a PITA to figure out how 11:41:36 i don't see any way short of like, smoothing out the waveform somehow to get rid of them, nor do I want to get rid of them 11:41:39 sox 11:41:50 probably in the ~~real orchestration~~ there's some violins just going duhduhduhduhduh 11:41:53 Pthing: open audacity, put wav in, lowpass 11:42:00 yes 11:42:18 Pthing, why insert silence instead from the beginning? Is that harder? 11:42:25 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Spectrogram-of-swept-triangular-wave.png ;; the matrix data centre! 11:42:47 ehird, hah 11:42:54 AnMaster, yeah, the way I've jambed the stolen code in, it's difficult to get it to pass through to silence 11:43:10 without adding more jambed code, by which point I shouldn't be jambing shit together like that 11:43:20 Pthing, getting this on piano or such would be awesome 11:43:36 i still think it'd be better as a string quartet 11:43:59 Pthing, maybe. Seems a bit too fast for that though 11:45:08 Pthing, or playing pizzicato? 11:45:14 yeah! 11:45:23 pizzicto would get the clickiness, I guess 11:45:25 *cato 11:46:06 Pthing, I find it hard to believe any human could manage that for ~20 minutes though :P 11:46:12 then we'll build robots 11:46:19 a race of atomic supermen 11:46:23 ehird, about the beat. There is a beat from the start to me 11:46:31 aah I've always wanted a robotic math rock band 11:46:45 their timing would be IMPECCABLE 11:48:17 oh wait hang on i think i see a way to get silences 11:48:49 noo you'll ruin it 11:48:59 maybe, maybe not 11:49:01 we'll see 11:49:09 Just add "-af sinesuppress=25" or "-af equalizer=-12:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0" to the mplayer command line. (Disclaimer: I don't know whether either one will work, can't seem to find a generic FIR filter there.) 11:49:27 fizzie, the second one. What does it mean? 11:49:52 fizzie, the first one doesn't 11:50:08 nor the second 11:50:40 It's a 10-band equalizer; that line of numbers is telling it to provide -12 dB of amplification at 31.25 Hz, 0 on all other bands; it should at least make any 25 Hz frequency components less loud. 11:51:33 fizzie, not by much 11:51:55 the ending is n ice 11:51:59 the low tone 11:52:00 *nice 11:54:08 yeah okay that sounds like it worked 11:55:53 http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/crabs/technical-memorandum.pdf 11:55:53 awesome awesome awesome 11:57:15 Pthing, hm? where? 11:57:21 url that is 11:57:22 uploading 11:59:16 damn could you implement crabs on X11? 11:59:19 i think maybe 11:59:26 nothing's stopping windows from fucking with each other right? 11:59:59 ehird, what exactly does crabs do? I find that scanned text quite hard to read 12:00:14 headache-inducing 12:00:14 Zoom in 12:00:21 It's impossible at smaller sizes 12:00:24 But at bigger sizes it's fine 12:00:28 mhm 12:00:33 You really need to read it, it's awe-inspiring 12:00:39 AnMaster: it gets better on the actual text 12:00:45 starting "TECHNICAL MEMORANDUM", "Laws and violations" 12:00:58 I read the laws and violations section 12:01:08 quite funny. But I want like an abstract of crabs 12:01:17 Audacity's highpass filter gets rid of them reasonably well, but that's unarguably more work than just streaming through mplayer. (You really don't want to low*pass* at 25 Hz; unless you want to keep just them and discard everything else.) 12:01:25 AnMaster: your loss; it's absolute genius 12:01:30 summarising it would ruin it 12:01:33 mhm 12:01:48 ehird, it is pixly when you zoom in 12:01:57 Don't zoom in that far then. 12:02:22 http://users.aber.ac.uk/rhw6/music/halfsectruerests5-tet.mp3 12:02:28 has true etc. 12:02:59 *Oh*, the name wasn't about "secrets" at all. 12:02:59 Pthing, those clicks. What causes them did you say? 12:03:18 Pthing: sounds more mechanical 12:03:31 fizzie, haha 12:03:41 it seems to be because it writes half a second of sine wave at, say, A, then it goes up and immediately starts writing another sine wave a tone higher 12:03:49 so the waveform is cuspy 12:03:53 which clicks, I guess 12:04:08 Pthing, go figure out midi :) 12:04:19 AnMaster: do you realise how demanding that sounds 12:04:26 ehird, yeah. 12:04:32 I was half-joking 12:05:01 ehird, what is that QIX? 12:05:05 that knowledge is assumed about 12:05:11 A game of some sort. 12:05:19 Doesn't matter too much 12:06:31 This is from 1984, btw 12:06:40 heh 12:06:42 Bonus: It includes screenshots of circa 1984 graphical Unix environments 12:06:45 Non-X11, I believe 12:06:53 Including the 1-bit faces 12:07:49 including code with k&r decls :) 12:08:05 why was one of them *dicating code* 12:08:14 Dicating? 12:08:20 -typo 12:08:39 (dictating of course) 12:08:40 Dictating i.e. explaining it 12:08:50 yes I know what it means 12:08:57 just wondering why they did it like that 12:09:01 No, dictating means reciting 12:09:04 But in this context it means explaining 12:09:11 And because people know English better than C 12:09:11 Pair programming, you know. Back in the eighties! How agile. 12:09:19 fizzie, haha 12:09:26 Their PRODUCTIVITY. So high. SO HIGH 12:09:58 hm 12:10:28 wasn't it possible back then to draw to a private buffer and blit it to the screen or such? 12:10:44 The graphical environment was called Blit. 12:10:59 I don't know what you mean, though. 12:11:10 ehird, double buffering basically I guess. 12:11:17 Sure, why wouldn't you be able to 12:11:29 * AnMaster just read about "angry measles" 12:11:36 Keep going! 12:11:40 It just gets better. 12:12:12 ehird, I'm just wondering why they can't look at a private bitmap. which might or might not be hidden by a window on top. In theory that would work as wlel 12:12:14 well* 12:12:29 Because you can't access other process's memory. 12:12:54 ehird, er. I think you misunderstood me 12:13:28 I mean, like a modern game would do. Render to a canvas. You can read it yourself. Window system takes care of handling hiding part of it when another window is on top 12:14:13 This has nothing to do with any of the demos. 12:17:39 Sure it does: anything that keeps a private bitmap and blits it on screen whenever some part of it changes (and periodically-but-often) is sort-of crab-immune. (The story about crabs eating someone's painting, for example, wouldn't really work on a modern painty program which doesn't use the screen as the only copy of the bitmap-being-edited.) 12:17:56 I'm not sure that sort of stuff would be fast enough on a terminal, though. 12:17:57 Ah. 12:17:58 Well, yes. 12:18:02 Too slow, not simple enough. 12:18:12 Not needed, because, you know. 12:18:19 Only things like crabs break it. 12:18:26 heh 12:18:32 Besides, it's not something that's easy to discovevr. 12:18:33 discoevr 12:18:35 *discover 12:18:43 It's quite ludicrous to do two graphic writes to do one 12:21:19 "TMBR: A mind consisting of computable determinism does not perceive." 12:21:19 Guess I'm a p-zombie then 12:22:18 "Anti-evolutionist Don McLeroy, a dentist and chair of the Texas State Board of Education, testified at Friday's hearing: 'I disagree with these experts. Someone has got to stand up to experts.'" Yes! Down with the experts, I say! Always being all.. experty, all over the place! 12:22:29 ehird, it mentions the lens being unaffected by being re-generated. Well, basically every modern app would be unaffected. terminal would be fixed by simply scrolling it up down a few steps 12:22:33 fizzie: >_< 12:24:18 AnMaster: Unless you make the crab mark onto a separate mostly-transparent window, and use a bit of programming to always keep that on top of the window below. 12:24:29 That's no faiar. 12:24:31 *fair 12:25:02 That one Windows proggie that lets you shoot your windows with a shotgun, leaving permanent marks, does something like that, I think. 12:25:03 fizzie, true, and what ehird said 12:25:40 "I believe that best form of government is a mix of libertarian, socialitic, free market policies." how coincidental, i believe the best colour is both black and white 12:26:33 "You are everybody but don't realize it." why am I reading this subreddit, it's just uninformed idiots stating their idiotic beliefs 12:26:40 -!- puzzlet_ has joined. 12:29:22 * ehird toys with the idea of registering rwx.st 12:29:28 rwx.st? 12:29:29 why? 12:30:02 because I need a domain and it's short and catchy. rwx after the file permissions, st is a popular country-code-hijacked-for-generic-stuff dealie 12:30:43 plus it looks aesthetically pleasing — http://rwx.st/bsdutils/releases/bsdutils-12.tar.gz 12:30:49 ehird@rwx.st 12:31:03 ehird: And then everyone can read, write and execute you! 12:31:09 Absolutuely! 12:31:12 *Absolutely 12:31:21 Ooh, pointless X trickery: http://xdesktopwaves.sourceforge.net/ 12:31:56 Anyway, rwx.st is also pretty neutral, i.e. it's not really tied to anything because it's a meaningless jumble of letters 12:32:05 Hard to fool myself into thinking I'll keep it forever, but eh. 12:33:01 My only complaint is that on QWERTY, rwx is a bit left-biased. 12:33:15 However, it's quite easy to type. 12:34:30 heyo 12:34:45 fizzie, can't magnify screenshots 12:34:48 irritating 12:34:49 i should write a mail server thing. 12:34:50 hows it goin, kids 12:34:57 it's going 12:34:57 wait for it 12:34:59 TOTALLY 12:35:00 BITCHING 12:35:01 RAD 12:35:06 oh man 12:35:14 ehird, why write a mail server? 12:35:22 cuz they all suck :/ 12:35:25 cory doctorow has a new story out. :X 12:35:32 ehird, netqmail too? 12:35:39 AnMaster: Yes. I also am a bit doubtful as to how well it works on modern, compositey 3d-fluffy X stuff; the proggie seems a bit on the old side. 12:35:50 augur: does it include a really, really, really awkward sex scene? just kidding, of course it does 12:35:57 fizzie, oh I thought it used composite 12:36:00 (note: I have never actually read any cory doctorow novels) 12:36:00 it looked like it 12:36:09 AnMaster: qmail is probably nice if you apply 500 paatches 12:36:13 *patches 12:36:19 ehird: i dont know. its about decommissioning the first AI 12:36:20 ehird, yeah that is what netqmail is about 12:36:24 those 500 already 12:36:25 AnMaster: I don't really know; it's just that GCC 2.7 doesn't sound so new. But maybe they've just tested with old compilers too. 12:36:33 augur: "twiddle my bits baby" 12:36:36 fizzie, hah 12:36:38 :P 12:36:53 fizzie, okay, xshape is old iir 12:36:54 iirc* 12:36:56 AnMaster: doesn't qmail depend on daemontools crap anyway? 12:37:05 ehird, you can use other ones 12:37:11 ehird, like sysvinit even 12:37:19 AnMaster: Last release from Sat Dec 18 2004. 12:37:24 how about rc-shell-script-init :P 12:37:41 ehird, unsure. I would recommend a supervisor if possible. But not strictly needed I think 12:38:35 Anyway, um something was meant to go here but I got distracted 12:38:43 XD 12:39:09 i have not yet slept. 12:39:26 anyw- 12:39:30 i'm sure it was relevant 12:39:35 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 12:39:39 can't have been "it can't be too hard" writing a mail server will be a bitch 12:39:58 wonder if i could avoid imap, just rsync from the server to get your mail :) 12:40:12 ...since imap is really bad 12:40:46 so is smtp come to think of it 12:40:56 ehird, you can't avoid smtp 12:41:03 indeed 12:41:07 for like talking to other mail servers 12:41:08 you can avoid it for sending your own mail, though 12:41:13 ehird, oh? 12:41:21 for instance "ssh sendmail ..." 12:41:23 well the mail server needs to use it to send it onwards 12:41:26 (sendmail(1) != sendmail) 12:41:30 AnMaster: well, yeah. 12:42:17 ehird, ssh is bloated. Your distro should use telnet 12:42:19 ;P 12:42:29 in fact i was just starting to write a line complaining about ssh 12:42:35 and rcp 12:42:37 instead of scp 12:42:43 the negotiation crap in ssh is so stupid 12:42:50 "hurr let's put every encryption algorithm EVER" 12:42:50 ehird, oh? 12:42:52 "into it" 12:42:56 "and guarantee NONE OF THEM" 12:43:03 "and then, just, like, chit-chat for hours to decide which to use" 12:43:14 "WE ARE CRYPTOGRAPHERS FUCK YEAH" 12:43:32 ehird, it doesn't seem to take long to me? 12:43:33 also, ssh is really big so it's hard to trustt. 12:43:35 *trust 12:43:38 AnMaster: everything is fast. 12:44:48 i guess i should concentrate on getting myself some hardware 12:45:02 them new, cheaper, cooler and more energy-efficient i7s are looking mighty purty 12:46:04 lol, intel though will apparently never stop ripping people off 12:46:13 2.8 GHz, $289.99 12:46:18 2.93 GHz, $549.99 12:46:23 same specs otherwise 12:47:00 i mean really, is there a >=1 GHz processor in the world that cannot be overclocked by .13? 12:49:56 ehird, depends on if the 2.8 ones are made from bad 2.93 ones 12:50:05 like, "they still work just fine for the lower speed" 12:50:10 no, i highly doubt that 12:50:21 seeing as the core i7 is the highest-end desktop processor intel offer 12:50:23 somewhat like the 3 core cpus from 4 core cpus with one bad core 12:50:45 ...I'm driven to Core 2 slightly, though, because I'd like ECC... 12:51:00 ehird, i7 doesn't support ECC? 12:51:05 Nope. 12:51:06 not even in server editions? 12:51:09 Yes. 12:51:12 They're not i7. 12:51:16 They're Xeon "Nehalem". 12:51:21 right 12:51:25 ehird, why not go for that then 12:51:35 Because it costs like $500 more just for the CPU. 12:51:41 good reason 12:52:14 Hmm, not that bad 12:52:20 $639.99 for 2.93 GHz 12:52:29 No 2.8 GHz option though, just 2.66 GHz at $269.99 12:53:21 ehird, you probably want kernel and libc available in cpu specific versions. For other software generic would work well 12:53:31 well, maybe video player. Not sure 12:53:33 why? debian doesn't 12:53:41 i don't see anyone complaining 12:53:49 heck, debian are not even 686 12:53:52 they're 386 12:54:00 ehird, ubuntu does on i686 for i386 and i686 libcs iirc 12:54:11 well, cmov/non-cmov 12:54:19 using cmov eh 12:54:20 forgot when that was added exactly 12:54:24 sounds like someone's using a pentium 4 12:54:30 because it's a pessimisation on recent hardware 12:54:34 and if you are using a pentium 4 12:54:37 *BASH* 12:54:38 *BASH* 12:54:40 *BASH* 12:54:44 ehird, depends on if the branch is predictable 12:54:45 can dead people use pentium 4s? 12:54:55 http://ondioline.org/mail/cmov-a-bad-idea-on-out-of-order-cpus 12:55:05 it's bad. 12:55:23 ehird, when I profiled I saw basically no difference on modern hardware. But a large speed up on a pentium 3 12:55:35 is p3 even 686 12:55:37 in a specific sample 12:55:41 ehird, it is 12:55:49 well, whatever 12:55:51 everything is slow on a p3 12:56:08 ehird, not really. remember than 14 second boot with arch and no initrd? 12:56:14 well, sure. 12:56:17 p3 at 996 MHz 12:56:27 wanna donate that box? :P 12:56:28 (lol *almost* 1 GHz!) 12:56:30 ehird, no way 12:56:36 you suck :( 12:56:37 ehird, 20 GB PATA disk btw 12:56:44 oh and hm 512 MB RAM at most 12:56:46 stop saying pata nobody says pata 12:56:47 people say ide 12:56:59 Debian does somewhat CPU-specific kernels; linux-image-2.6-{486,686,amd64} are available on the i386 platform. 12:57:07 ehird, I say pata 12:57:10 p3s actually went up to 1.4 GHz 12:57:11 so does kernel 12:57:23 fizzie, amd64 on i386? 12:57:24 XD 12:57:47 AnMaster: Yes, if you want to run a 32-bit debian on an amd64-style CPU. 12:57:52 People do that sort of thing. 12:58:10 Oh, a good reason to write my own mail server: to write my own mailing list software. Duh! 12:58:10 Oh, and libc6-{,i686,amd64} too. 12:58:12 well chroot I guess 12:58:23 AnMaster: you can optimise for amd64 architectures without using long mode 12:58:32 * AnMaster forces ehird to use mailman 12:58:36 NOOOO 12:58:38 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 12:58:41 NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO 12:58:50 i hereby swear off mailing lists for ever and a day 12:58:57 * AnMaster forces ehird to read his font rendered in Ariel instead of Helvetica 12:59:05 i define ariel to be an alias to helvetica 12:59:06 HA 12:59:07 TYPOSPLOIT 12:59:07 his mail rendered* 12:59:12 ehird, argh. 12:59:37 phoenix ~ $ uname -a 12:59:37 Linux phoenix 2.6.31.5-L1 #1 Sun Nov 1 12:32:00 CET 2009 i686 Pentium III (Coppermine) GenuineIntel GNU/Linux 12:59:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Core#Core_i9 13:00:00 and yeah 500 MB RAM 13:00:02 says free 13:00:03 six cores? next year? 13:00:06 12 MiB of cache? 13:00:08 total used free shared buffers cached 13:00:08 Mem: 500 31 469 0 2 16 13:00:10 FUCK YOU IINTEL 13:00:15 FUCKING WITH MY MIND AND SHIT 13:00:16 at least it's the same socket 13:00:21 I HAVE LOTS OF MONEY ANYWAY RIGHT? 13:00:28 ehird, you do? 13:00:29 -!- fax has joined. 13:00:30 nope 13:00:48 ehird, why do you need high end hardware? 13:00:49 well i have quite a bit but that's just because i never buy anything and little amounts accumulate, funny how that works 13:00:58 I can't even get my puny 4G used: 13:00:59 total used free shared buffers cached 13:00:59 Mem: 3835 2116 1719 0 139 964 13:01:03 ehird, oh btw your distro might be binary. but to *you* it will be source based 13:01:04 since 13:01:08 you know 13:01:13 you will make the binary packages 13:01:16 AnMaster: separate step 13:01:26 i can install a package i compiled earlier that i'm not using 13:01:32 so really it's just like maintaining a source tree 13:01:37 a horrible source tree 13:01:41 full of horrible software 13:01:48 oh? 13:02:23 cpu MHz : 996.661 13:02:23 cache size : 256 KB 13:02:27 and 13:02:29 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pse36 mmx fxsr sse 13:02:31 so few 13:02:42 AnMaster: also because high end hardware is fast. and if you're careful with your system config and willing to get your hands dirty you can get it for quite cheap 13:03:11 and it's way cooler to have a silent supercomputer on the floor than a silent lagger 13:03:49 ehird, go arm 13:03:53 no. 13:03:55 cpu MHz : 600.000 13:03:55 cache size : 1024 KB 13:03:55 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr mce cx8 sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 tm pbe bts est tm2 13:04:11 fizzie, more flags 13:04:17 Yes, but not so much more. 13:04:28 fizzie, what cpu is it? 13:04:35 model name : Pentium III (Coppermine) 13:04:37 for the one above 13:05:00 cpu MHz : 0.740 13:05:00 cache size : 0 KB 13:05:00 flags : 13:05:05 INTEL 4004 FUCK YEAH 13:05:10 An "Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1400MHz"; it's just the speedstep-or-whatever-they-called-their-cpufreq-thing that's made it 600 MHz. 13:05:22 fizzie, ah 13:05:33 fizzie, my p3 doesn't support cpufreq changes 13:05:37 so I win 13:05:45 ehird, sure. But you don't have one 13:05:52 ehird, and those spaces are all messed up 13:05:59 not aligned like what I pasted 13:06:00 The Atom I have has more flags than the Athlon X2. 13:06:01 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm movbe lahf_lm 13:06:06 i just copied the spaces from your first line 13:06:28 ehird, um they are aligned in monspace. so it can't be same for all 13:06:30 12 GiB of RAM for $249.99? why, don't mind if I do 13:06:35 AnMaster: don't care 13:07:02 fizzie, heh that's quite a mouthful 13:07:11 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx smx est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm sse4_1 lahf_lm tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority 13:07:15 is my laptop 13:07:17 I think they're just making those up nowadays. 13:07:21 model name : Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU P8400 @ 2.26GHz 13:07:44 $291.98 for 12 GiB DDR3 ECC. 13:07:49 fizzie, that atom lacks nx? 13:09:01 flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe syscall nx lm constant_tsc arch_perfmon pebs bts rep_good pni dtes64 monitor ds_cpl vmx smx est tm2 ssse3 cx16 xtpr pdcm sse4_1 xsave lahf_lm tpr_shadow vnmi flexpriority 13:09:28 That's a work-workstation; we're almost flag-buddies, though there's some difference somewhere, judging from the length. 13:09:32 fizzie, must be a xeon or i7? 13:09:55 "Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q9400 @ 2.66GHz", and apparently it has xsave that yours doesn't. 13:09:56 ugh, why can't i7 processors just support ecc? 13:09:56 fizzie, xsave is new 13:10:11 fizzie, said it same second 13:10:18 fizzie, what is xsave? 13:11:10 AnMaster: No idea. And according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Atom_microprocessors the Atom 230 I have has "XD bit (an NX bit implementation)". 13:11:18 * ehird filters mobos by manufacturer=intel 13:11:29 ehird, why? 13:11:36 AnMaster: damn foolin' mobo vendors ain't gonna fool me no' mo'! 13:11:45 at least i can trust intel to have a rock solid board 13:11:51 also: intel graphics 13:11:58 well 13:12:04 admittedly i don't know if you can get intel graphics on the i7 boards 13:12:24 ./include/asm/cpufeature.h:#define X86_FEATURE_XSAVE (4*32+26) /* XSAVE/XRSTOR/XSETBV/XGETBV */ 13:12:34 that is in /usr/src/linux-*/arch/x86 13:13:18 http://lwn.net/Articles/281921/ 13:13:27 dear amd: 13:13:34 why haven't you realised a good processor since the last time I checked up on you 13:13:38 you fail at life 13:14:54 Heh, this X2 workstation I have has an Athlon 64 X2 5600+ with a rated TDP of 89 W; the Atom box has a TDP of 4 W. That's quite a difference in performance/watt; I mean, this box is faster, but it's certainly not 89/4 times faster. 13:14:57 it'd be cool if you could buy actual intel graphics cards 13:15:08 fizzie, heh 13:15:27 fizzie, I don't think it scales linearly anyway. but even so 13:19:20 The CSC guy's "future of supercomputing" presentation had one slide, where they had calculated some specs for a hypothetical one exaflops supercomputer using today's tech; it was something like half a million cores, using about 300 megawatts of power; that's 35 % of one of Finland's four nuclear reactors. Not very feasible. 13:21:28 It's funny how Wikipedia's "nuclear power plant" infobox has a "Status: Operating" line, and the "Operating" text is coloured green. It makes it look like it's hooked directly to the reactor sensors and displays real-time data. 13:22:42 :D 13:22:49 ehird, btw that cmov related link. Have you actually read it all? 13:22:57 ues 13:22:58 "It really all boils down to: there's simply no real reason to use cmov. 13:22:58 It's not horrible either, so go ahead and use it if you want to, but don't 13:22:58 expect your code to really magically run any faster. 13:22:58 Linus" 13:22:59 t 13:23:01 u 13:23:02 y 13:23:03 just pointing out that 13:23:11 my y and u keyss are swapped 13:23:19 AnMaster: yes but it demonstrates that having cmov versions of kernels is tupid 13:23:19 stupid 13:23:33 true 13:24:15 WTF 13:24:18 xedit has ispell 13:24:21 and syntax highlighting 13:24:39 AND AUTOINDENTATION 13:24:50 and paren matching 13:25:01 and ctags support 13:25:10 yes that xedit 13:25:19 ehird, bloated much? 13:25:28 you know which xedit i'm talking about right? 13:25:43 protip: control+middle button -> edit mode -> C/C++ 13:25:49 type in a simple program and see it get autoindented and highlighted 13:25:52 i never even knew. 13:27:17 ehird, I hardly remember xedit 13:27:18 FirePath (a VLIW-ish -- two ops per instruction, so maybe not so V -- all-SIMD architecture used in central-office DSL stuff) has a funky SIMD-conditional-execution thing. 13:27:23 AnMaster: start it and you'll remeember 13:27:25 *remember 13:28:12 http://everything2.com/title/FirePath has a bit of an example. 13:28:13 ehird, unable to find it. And ubuntu doesn't list a package containing it 13:28:21 um... it comes with x 13:28:27 failing that, install xedit package? 13:28:33 hmm 13:28:38 MRI machine! 13:28:58 apt-cache show xedit 13:28:58 W: Unable to locate package xedit 13:28:59 there 13:29:04 use the dpkg search thing 13:29:08 ehird, apt-file 13:29:10 ? 13:29:15 (Sophie Wilson was a guest at the Altparty event; first time I heard about FirePath. It's sadly so very unknown, except to people who do the DSL stuff.) 13:29:25 ehird, what is the case for the binary? 13:29:32 xedit 13:29:35 /usr/bin/xedit? 13:29:35 right 13:29:46 $ apt-file find /usr/bin/xedit 13:29:49 $ 13:30:03 ehird, I'm afraid ubuntu doesn't have it (jaunty at least) 13:30:10 "/usr/bin/xedit x11-apps [not avr32] " 13:30:13 That's for Debian. 13:30:42 No files called "xedit" in Ubuntu-jaunty. :/ 13:30:48 queer 13:32:06 karmic's "x11-apps" has xedit, too; that's even queererer. 13:32:24 x11-apps exists, contains no xedit? 13:32:26 Yes. 13:32:43 even have it installed 13:32:44 http://packages.ubuntu.com/jaunty/x11-apps → http://packages.ubuntu.com/karmic/x11-apps -- the only difference is the xedit line. 13:33:01 fizzie, changelog entry about it? 13:33:09 x11-apps (7.4+2) unstable; urgency=low 13:33:09 * Add xedit 1.1.2, closes: #499085, #505064. 13:33:24 x11-apps (7.3+4) unstable; urgency=low 13:33:24 * Remove xedit from the package, it's unmaintained and broken 13:33:24 (closes: #321434). 13:33:24 * Remove xedit's conffiles on upgrade. 13:33:34 fizzie, huh 13:33:57 You can probably check out those bug report numbers for more details. 13:33:58 * AnMaster is too lazy to check those bugs out 13:34:08 argh you were half a second faster 13:34:48 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds). 13:35:13 hey, xedit is actually pretty good for editing C! 13:35:40 the syntax highlighting is very complete, the colours pleasing, the automatic indentation perfect... 13:35:46 and the keybindings good 13:36:11 Ubuntu bug #1: "Microsoft has a majority market share". Declined for Edgy, Feisty, Gutsy, Hardy, Intrepid, Karmic; Nominated for Lucid. Sure. (Though I guess it's been that way all the time.) 13:36:43 fizzie, old 13:36:48 I always feel stupid doing 13:36:50 exit(...); 13:36:52 break; 13:36:52 you only just discovered it? 13:37:02 ehird, why would you do that 13:37:05 AnMaster: presumably he was commenting on the nomination 13:37:07 also, switch () 13:37:21 ehird, yes but why the break after it. It isn't required afaik 13:37:33 you can have fall through cases after all 13:37:57 c warnings etc. 13:37:59 ehird, so yeah you should feel stupid 13:38:14 i think inconsistency is worse. 13:38:25 ehird, hm gcc at least should be able to figure out exit() never returns, since it has __attribute__((noreturn)) iirc 13:42:43 things i don't like: the part where xedit just crashed onm me 13:43:31 mhm 13:43:38 ehird, thats a feature 13:44:08 (but a bug that it is active when INTERCAL syntax highlighting isn't used) 13:47:03 heh 13:48:48 FUCK 13:48:51 it happened again 13:51:13 ehird, install debugging symbols. Run under gdb 13:51:28 meh 13:51:34 prolly apple's x11 server 13:51:41 ah 13:58:53 -!- Telesforo has joined. 14:00:22 -!- Telesforo has quit (Client Quit). 14:00:54 "Message sending failed. Check E-Mail settings." Yay, what a colossally helpful error message. 14:01:23 Better than "[c]ontact your system administrator." 14:03:00 Got it from the phone when trying to send outgoing email. I guess it's possible the operator has a different outgoing-SMTP server for us mobile users, it's just that the only one I can find from the support pages is the one on their generic "email settings" page. 14:07:22 Right, there's some sort of blog comment saying that it's "smtp.mobiili.net" for that. Great. 14:08:20 Not that it works any better with that. 14:09:32 okay, this is just ridiculous 14:09:35 xedit has a lisp evaluator 14:12:30 No, *this* is ridiculous: To send email, I have to go to mailbox settings and toggle the "Security" setting to "Off", because otherwise it tries to use SMTP-over-SSL, which is not supported by the operator's outgoing SMTP server. To read email, I have to go back to the settings and toggle "Security" to "On", because that's the only way to make it use IMAP-oer-SSL, which is required by the IMAP server. 14:13:12 Okay, I guess the Lisp evaluator is pretty ridiculous too. Still. 14:20:54 That's funny; the 25 second sound clip is 2208 bytes. Format's 8 kHz narrowband AMR; since even the lowest codec in that family is 4.75 kbit/s, and that file has about 700 bits/s, I'm forced to conclude that it's just using the "store some statistics of the background noise and not the signal itself" mode for the whole file. 14:21:14 Maybe the phone wasn't the best possible device for recording the suspicious-sounding power supply noise after all. 14:32:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 14:37:25 Better than "[c]ontact your system administrator." <-- why the [] around c? 14:37:38 C 14:37:59 ehird, you mean [cC]? 14:38:12 english quotation style fail. 14:38:20 oh not a regex 14:39:26 fizzie, what power supply? 14:40:14 fizzie, store statistics of signal noise? is there really a sound format with that? 14:40:22 heh 14:40:32 AnMaster: Yes. 14:40:49 AnMaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMR-NB -- it's called Comfort Noise Generation (CNG) there. 14:41:24 I think Speex has it too. 14:41:48 At least the VAD and DTX parts; maybe not the noise generation. 14:42:23 -!- migomipo has joined. 14:42:47 "Discontinuous transmission is an addition to VAD/VBR operation, that allows to stop transmitting completely when the background noise is stationary. In a file, 5 bits are used for each missing frame (corresponding to 250 bit/s)." I guess Speex doesn't store noise statistics, at that. Well, AMR does, anyway. 14:44:06 AnMaster: Indicates that it was originally capitalized but I changed it to lower case. 14:44:54 Deewiant, ah 15:11:32 -!- ehird has quit. 15:16:01 i think im going to go to a cafe and chill for the whole day 15:16:14 who thinks i should do this? 15:16:25 you 15:16:47 besides me! 15:20:06 * AnMaster doesn't care 15:21:07 :( 15:21:09 ok bye 15:25:03 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:34:01 -!- atrapado has joined. 15:37:05 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:47:46 -!- atrapado has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 16:53:43 -!- FireFly has joined. 17:00:15 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 17:01:02 -!- Asztal has joined. 17:07:47 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 17:11:51 -!- coppro has joined. 18:03:42 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 18:06:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 18:13:09 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving"). 18:23:45 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 18:30:35 -!- Jaykul[AFK] has changed nick to Jaykul. 19:16:25 -!- oerjan has joined. 19:22:38 AnMaster: iwc :D 19:22:48 oerjan, indeed 19:22:55 oerjan, but you weren't here hours ago when I read it 19:23:04 oerjan, what the hell was it about now again? 19:23:18 kyros and bad choices 19:23:24 aaah yes 19:23:27 two clearly linked concepts 19:23:36 well... that's given 19:29:03 -!- Oranjer has joined. 19:43:03 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:43:36 -!- FireFly has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:39 -!- ais523 has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:39 -!- AnMaster has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:42 -!- coppro has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:44 -!- comex has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:44 -!- EgoBot has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:48 -!- migomipo has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:48 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:50 -!- Deewiant has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:59 -!- adam_d has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:59 -!- dbc has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:43:59 -!- Asztal has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:01 -!- fungot has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:01 -!- fizzie has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:01 -!- Slereah_ has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:01 -!- cal153 has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:03 -!- comex_ has joined. 19:44:08 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:44:14 -!- AnMaster has joined. 19:44:17 -!- Deewiant has joined. 19:44:25 -!- comex_ has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:25 -!- fizzie` has joined. 19:44:26 -!- AnMaster has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:26 -!- FireFly has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:29 -!- fizzie` has quit (Nick collision from syn.). 19:44:30 netsplit?!? 19:44:33 -!- ais523 has joined. 19:44:35 -!- Slereah has joined. 19:44:42 -!- FireyFly has joined. 19:44:49 -!- cal153 has joined. 19:44:58 -!- fizzie has joined. 19:45:01 -!- Asztal has joined. 19:45:02 -!- adam_d has joined. 19:45:05 ##overflow is filling up massively fast 19:45:09 it's not a netsplit 19:45:19 oh 19:45:22 I think the server went mad and decided to K-line /everyone/ 19:45:27 :O 19:45:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 19:45:30 -syn- Your reported IP [0.0.0.15] is banned: christel; Your access to freenode has been terminated. klines@freenode.net with questions. (2009/02/19 18.45) 19:45:31 -!- EgoBot has joined. 19:45:36 Yes, that was pretty strange. 19:45:43 -!- coppro has joined. 19:45:50 Incidentally, I don't think my IP is 0.0.0.15. 19:47:10 oh, my IP was reported as 0.0.0.10 19:47:22 -!- dbc has joined. 19:47:29 "-Md- [GlobalNotice] sorry for the recent mass-kill issue! we are investigating what happened exactly" Heh. "Sorry that we killed you. Our bad." 19:47:29 I'm not surprised that that IP is banned 19:47:30 -!- AnMaster has joined. 19:47:42 but I am surprised that it misdetected the IP that badly 19:48:49 -!- comex has joined. 19:54:20 what 19:54:24 the 19:54:26 fucking 19:54:28 crazy 19:54:28 I was also 0.0.0.15 19:54:30 hell 19:54:33 what 19:54:36 what happened 19:54:40 AnMaster: freenode went mad and k-lined /everyone/ 19:54:42 including services 19:54:44 -syn- Your reported IP [0.0.0.10] is banned: christel; Your access to freenode has been terminated. klines@freenode.net with questions. (2009/02/19 18.45) 19:54:45 [20:46:50] [>> $*] [GlobalNotice] sorry for the recent mass-kill issue! we are investigating what happened exactly 19:54:48 If you didn't notice 19:54:53 reconnected on ipv6 19:55:09 yay me! I love being immune to horrible, horrible bad luck 19:55:26 FireyFly, .10 not .15 19:55:34 [20:45:52] Incidentally, I don't think my IP is 0.0.0.15. 19:55:34 [20:47:12] oh, my IP was reported as 0.0.0.10 19:55:36 I was .10 too 19:55:39 And yes, my was reported as .15 19:55:41 FireyFly, I wasn't connected at that point I think 19:55:50 That's three .10s, two .15s. 19:55:55 at least I never got the message 19:56:04 BeholdMyGlory was .190 19:56:11 Oranjer, on ipv6? 19:56:35 I heard some on another network (chatspike) that mentioned being unaffected. They all used ipv6 19:56:49 ah 19:56:52 argh 43 seconds lag 19:56:53 -!- puzzlet has joined. 19:56:55 I hate this 19:57:30 * oerjan was never k-lined, he thinks. 19:57:35 * oerjan feels special 19:58:17 I see 19:58:19 still joining channels it seems 19:59:23 heh 19:59:49 -!- Oranjer has quit (Nick collision from services.). 20:00:20 I'm unable to join #freenode 20:00:27 -!- Oranjer has joined. 20:00:39 get redirected to ##overflow 20:00:47 I was 0.0.13.238 20:00:53 i am unable to _list_ #freenode 20:02:19 i don't think i am using ipv6 to connect to freenode 20:02:19 oerjan, hm? 20:02:21 what does that mean 20:02:27 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 20:02:32 21:00 LIST Server load is temporarily too heavy. Please wait a while and try again. 20:02:51 * Channel #freenode modes: +tncPLfJ 20:02:56 AnMaster: /list command? 20:02:57 I can see 20:03:01 hm 20:03:07 -!- Oranjer has joined. 20:03:15 with /mode 20:03:28 Deewiant: Ooh, your number is very big. 20:03:29 « quit » {AnMaster} {n=AnMaster@90.130.2.147} Nick collision from syn. 20:05:10 oerjan, I don't think you remember what that does. And I'm too lazy to explain 20:05:12 plus it won't work on freenode anyway 20:05:24 MizardX, I'm well aware 20:06:25 what doesn't work on #freenode? i've used /list many times 20:06:33 fizzie: And not 0.0.0 either! 20:07:31 heh 20:07:38 oerjan, you mean /names or /who 20:07:40 not /list 20:07:45 /list lists channels 20:08:00 AnMaster: i _was_ listing a channel. sheesh. 20:08:05 oerjan, um 20:08:12 oerjan, *list channel names* 20:08:16 it's what i use to see a channel topic 20:08:31 and number of users 20:08:31 oerjan, can you list #gentoo or something like it? 20:08:50 hm #freenode is +m now 20:08:58 21:08 #gentoo 756 Gentoo Linux support | Can't speak? /join #gentoo-ops | Paste over 4 lines? http://dpaste.com | KDE4? xrl.us/otdxr + #gentoo-kde | e2fsprogs block fix: xrl.us/bea7ut | X Server 1.5? Bust KB/Mouse? xrl.us/bem6c4 1.6? http://xrl.us/bfqrjt | poppler blocks? xrl.us/bephtt | Gentoo 10.0 LiveDVD: xrl.us/gentoo10years | Profiles: 20:09:04 2008.0->10.0 | irefox/ nvidia-drivers/ glibc/ nptl downgrade? sync and retry 20:09:48 hm ok 20:09:54 <+RichiH> -- PLEASE READ: we had a massive bug in one of our internal service bots which caused a massive, network-wide kill. that christel was mentioned is pure chance so please do not message her about it. we are working on fixing the problem. the bot has been disabled, for now -- 20:10:05 -!- puzzlet_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:10:56 AnMaster: i don't think i have tried to use /list without a channel argument, if that's what you mean. i'm not _that_ stupid :D 20:11:03 oerjan, hah 20:18:46 -!- FireyFly has changed nick to FireFly. 20:22:48 -!- ais523 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 20:53:45 * pikhq too wasn't disconnected 20:54:07 :O 20:59:17 -!- augur has joined. 21:00:00 I think I figured out who was disconnected (which also explains why I wasn't). 21:00:40 Ilari, oh? 21:01:21 oh? 21:01:41 Pretty much anybody whose local part of ident starts with 0-9, a-f or A-F. Mine starts with 'u' (the real account name would start with 'I'). 21:01:52 :O 21:02:56 hm maybe it did things alphabetically and was stopped halfway through 21:03:23 :O 21:03:29 * oerjan goes to see what that http://announce.freenode.net link was about 21:03:29 I wonder who stopped it! 21:04:37 oh it's hexadecimals 21:04:46 indeed 21:04:52 :O 21:08:39 Some apparently think that it is not possible to have Unix login names that start with capital letter. Not true. 21:09:07 Ilari, it is? 21:10:10 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 21:11:32 login[21013]: FAILED LOGIN (2) on '/dev/tty4' FOR 'UNKNOWN', Authentication failure login[21013]: pam_unix(login:session): session opened for user Ilari by LOGIN(uid=0) 21:12:08 The first is what one gets for trying to log in as user 'ilari'. 21:13:09 Ilari, eh, well it is case sensitive 21:13:12 what did you expect 21:13:15 It's certainly possible. It just makes logging in a pain on certain old terminals. 21:13:16 oh 21:13:22 (which are still supported by termcap) 21:14:36 The reason why it wasn't possible in some systems is compatiblity feature of terminal emulation. But Linux TTY emulator doesn't have that feature (because it doesn't need it). 21:16:36 http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Vivaldi-Masterpieces-Amazon-Exclusive/dp/B002POQ2UQ . Go. Buy. 21:17:58 why? 21:19:40 ah, cheap, good point 21:21:36 Haha... What would Vivaldi think if he saw that? 21:23:24 Oh, so the IP is also about hexadecimals; so 'ais523' => 0xa => 10 => 0.0.0.10; 'fis' => 0xf => 15 => 0.0.0.15; 'deewiant' => 0xdee => 3566 => 0.0.13.238. 21:23:27 Funky buggery. 21:23:55 MizardX: Well, after taking a few years to explain the very most basics of all the technology employed, the value of a dollar, and the major changes in economic conditions from when he was alive 'til now, I'm thinkin' not much. 21:23:59 fizzie: Heh, well spotted. 21:24:18 -!- oerjan has quit ("leaving"). 21:24:39 -!- adam_d has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 21:24:44 he was (apparently) a priest, so I doubt he cared about money 21:24:45 Ah, it was in the announcement. 21:24:50 died poor, too 21:31:32 -!- Rugxulo has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 21:31:42 -!- Rugxulo has joined. 21:34:28 netsplit? :-P 21:34:35 AnMaster> unless things got a lot more bloated since 2007 21:34:37 yes they have 21:36:19 Deewiant: I read the announcement only after spotting that fact; though admittedly I spotted it only after hexadecimals were mentioned. 21:39:20 -!- adam_d has joined. 21:39:30 :O 21:39:37 -!- Oranjer has left (?). 21:44:35 conclusion from this symbol: ⇔ dejavu has sucky hinting outside the more common symbols. 21:44:41 dejavu sans mono that is 21:44:49 it's a blur here 21:45:04 somewhat better on the higher DPI screen of my laptop. But not much 21:45:35 -!- madbrain has joined. 21:45:41 AnMaster: Yeah, that's pretty awful. 21:45:43 Anyone interested in a system design compo? 21:45:49 http://s.engramstudio.com/src/sdc.txt <- tentative rules 21:45:54 Gregor, you see what it is supposed to be? 21:46:00 when copying it I assume 21:46:05 AnMaster: Yeah. 21:46:07 it is the <=> thing 21:46:13 AnMaster: Liberation mono is a bit better. 21:46:31 Gregor, sans-serif and monospaced? as many symbols? 21:46:43 I could make a version of the compo with faster fast page ram or EDO or SDRAM but that's more complicated and can wait 21:46:46 * pikhq may need to switch fonts -- that is rather annoying. 21:46:49 Yes, yes and yes. But by "a bit" I really meant "a bit", not "a lot". 21:47:01 pikhq, to or from dejavu? 21:47:13 Gregor, this is at 9 pt btw 21:47:20 that I'm using it 21:47:36 AnMaster: From Deja Vu Sans Mono. 21:47:45 pikhq, you could make a patch or something 21:47:48 The other Deja Vu fonts seem to have nice hinting. 21:47:48 for the hinting 21:47:57 pikhq, but you need mono space 21:47:58 ... 21:48:01 on irc 21:48:14 just do /msg chanserv help (or /cs help on a properly set up client) 21:48:15 Not all that nice when it comes to things like <=> or => or ->... 21:48:29 AnMaster: I use a terminal for most things. 21:48:33 pikhq, → looks good here 21:48:41 -> and => are hard to distinguish. 21:48:42 well. 21:48:45 could be better 21:48:48 pikhq, yeah 21:48:50 (the combination, not the two-character sequence) 21:48:56 well of course 21:49:32 Liberation mono? seems to be missing it *goes font hunting* 21:49:49 * AnMaster emerges 21:53:09 ... from the depths of the netherworld! 21:53:39 Rugxulo, hah. No that is the gentoo command to install a package 21:54:56 brb restarting client to make it see the new fonts... 21:55:27 why couldn't it see the new ones on the fly 21:55:39 * AnMaster just reconnected to the bouncer 21:55:58 argh 21:56:13 Gregor, that liberation is smaller at 9 pt 21:56:18 and ugly 21:56:23 this is not sans serif 21:56:25 this is serfi 21:56:28 serif* 21:56:42 Liberation mono is sans serif. 21:56:53 Hrm. Actually, it seems to be inconsistent-serif :P 21:57:00 Gregor, exactly 21:57:06 that was unusable 21:57:28 You fontophiles are idiots. 21:57:36 AnMaster, yes I (barely) recognized that ... but at first it looked strange ;-) 21:57:47 I can understand the complaint about <=>, but this is just nonsense. 21:57:48 AnMaster, yes I (barely) recognized that ... but at first it looked strange ;-) <-- what? 21:57:59 * AnMaster doesn't have scrollback from before disconnecting 21:58:19 Rugxulo, hah. No that is the gentoo command to install a package 21:58:31 Gregor, I'm no fontofile. I prefer Ariel over Helvetia because the font spacing is proper in konqueror with it 21:58:37 Rugxulo, ah that 21:58:56 Gregor, I'm the person who is interested in proper colour handling 21:59:01 with 16 bits per channel 21:59:02 and such 21:59:18 Colorphiles. 21:59:20 everything is slow on a p3 21:59:31 some P4s are allegedly slower than some P3s !! 21:59:51 Rugxulo, yes 22:00:32 so you still run a P3 box? 22:00:53 good :-) 22:01:13 some P4s are allegedly slower than some P3s !! ; It is true of all lines of Intels (at least since P1pro) that there are early models of the newer one that is slower than the latest models of the previous one. 22:01:24 Rugxulo, I have one 22:01:33 996 MHz 22:01:44 six cores? next year? 22:01:48 I swear it is faster than the 2 GHz P4 I used to have 22:01:49 I thought that was later this year? (guess not) 22:02:00 faster at what, Gentoo or something else? 22:02:24 AnMaster: That's just because the P4 is always running so hot that it has to run slow to avoid melting :P 22:02:39 seriously, that's probably true 22:02:55 Rugxulo, compiling, running stuff, generic. And the p4 ran gentoo, but the p3 runs arch 22:02:56 * Rugxulo has a P4, hasn't used it too much lately except when router got scrambled temporarily 22:03:03 * pikhq should get a P4 for the sake of warming his coffee 22:03:14 compiling depends on the GCC used, etc. 22:03:21 Though, knowing P4s, that should more be "making his coffee"... 22:03:27 Rugxulo, the p4 broke in early 2006 iirc 22:03:29 or around there 22:03:41 what exactly broke on it? just stopped working? 22:03:42 the p3 I got my hands on in mid 2007 22:04:09 the only really "bad" part about a P3 is how heavily ignored SSE1 is by programmers 22:04:18 Rugxulo, it refused to boot. Removing CPU showed some black parts on it 22:04:21 as in 22:04:22 charred 22:04:26 was it overclocked? 22:04:31 Rugxulo, it wasn't 22:04:54 P4 broke even classic software optimizations, so no wonder it was slow 22:05:12 Rugxulo, and heatsink and such was cleaned regularly. 22:05:18 with compressed air 22:05:30 every 2-3 months or so 22:05:43 ehird, I estimate it is around 17 C indoors atm 22:05:52 you could maybe use another one to kill two birds with one stone ;-) 22:06:00 Rugxulo, hah. 22:06:07 Rugxulo, I care about environment a bit 22:06:18 so I try to go by bus instead of car and so on 22:06:48 (no train around here that could do the job. well there are trains, but they don't go on useful times) 22:06:50 I know I know, P4 isn't optimal in any form 22:10:46 your laptop already has VMX? 22:10:59 oops, sorry, brain lapse, thought it said AVX 22:11:34 2.26 Ghz, does it get good battery life? 22:12:49 it'd be cool if you could buy actual intel graphics cards 22:12:54 not if you want to use latest Ubuntu :-P 22:13:24 oops, sorry, brain lapse, thought it said AVX 22:13:25 no 22:13:30 it is an intel core 2 duo 22:13:45 Rugxulo, as for battery life. around 3 hours with wlan off 22:13:55 2.5 with wlan on at uni 22:13:59 2.75 with wlan on at home 22:14:17 due to the storm of broadcasts from misconfigured laptops at university 22:14:24 you know. mdns, upnp and so on 22:14:37 zeroconf and what not 22:14:44 um... it comes with x 22:14:51 then that's not the Xedit I was thinking of 22:15:01 Rugxulo, oh you were talking about the flags I posted? 22:15:06 some hours ago 22:15:20 probably ... yes, sorry, reading logs in lieu or real conversation ;-) 22:15:32 3 hours w/ what size battery? 12 cell??? 22:15:42 Rugxulo, 6 cell iirc 22:15:50 that's still better than mine 22:16:00 Rugxulo, it is more like 2 hours and 55 minutes though 22:16:05 but I don't dare run it to 0 22:16:23 I stop at 5-10% 22:16:42 AMD64x2 1.7 Ghz w/ 6 cell only gets 2 hours MAX on power saver!! (e.g. both cores halved) 22:16:59 Rugxulo, AMD CPUs use more power 22:17:00 other than that they are better IMO 22:17:23 I knew AMD used more power, but still ... pretty crappy to not even be able to watch a 2 hour DVD, barely 22:17:31 and it still gets noticeably warm, bah 22:17:44 Rugxulo, oh I never tried watching dvd on it 22:17:47 but it does at least match (or surpass) my P4 in performace 22:17:58 I don't either, just saying, kinda inconvenient 22:18:02 Rugxulo, I plan to replace the dvd drive in the ultrabay with an extra battery 22:18:19 you can get a 12-cell, probably helps more than replacing the DVD drive 22:18:27 Rugxulo, no place in backpack for that 22:18:33 also probably my fault for using Vista (even 7 claims better battery life) 22:18:46 Rugxulo, I use linux. Of course. 22:18:54 though I remember antiX Mepis not being too great either (shut off without warning) 22:18:55 can't use anything lacking a proper shell 22:19:08 "antiX Mepis"? 22:19:10 what is that 22:19:18 some "lightweight" Mepis derivative 22:19:36 I've tried a billion liveCDs, just never installed any 22:19:42 and not really *nix savvy 22:19:56 Rugxulo, what is mepis? 22:20:00 Linux 22:20:00 sounds familiar 22:20:06 never tried mepis 22:20:10 * AnMaster uses ubuntu on laptop 22:20:16 because things just work. Mostly 22:20:19 http://antix.mepis.org/index.php/Main_Page 22:20:26 haven't tried it lately, had a few issues I didn't like 22:20:37 but at least it had DOSBox by default, which I liked 22:20:54 Rugxulo, where would I find software to run in it 22:20:55 oh and 22:21:04 it would be one or two clicks away in most distros 22:21:07 in DOSBox or Mepis? 22:21:13 in dosbox 22:21:24 I have a (lame) DOS-related website 22:21:37 Rugxulo, never saw the point of DOS 22:21:44 horrible command interpreter 22:21:55 then use 4DOS or DJGPP Bash ;-) 22:22:04 Rugxulo, and no memory protection 22:22:08 and no multi tasking 22:22:22 memory protection in DJGPP (and other DPMI stuff), etc. 22:22:25 djgpp + libraries helps with a couple of these 22:22:30 hell even Apple's System 7 had multi tasking. (no memory protection though) 22:22:37 multitasking not free but exists (Win 3+, Desqview, DR-DOS 7) 22:22:38 Rugxulo, no multi tasking 22:22:58 Rugxulo, yeah. Windows indeed. then go NT and drop DOS completely 22:22:59 use DOSEMU or DOSBox with a "real" OS in the background for multitasking 22:23:08 then run dos from win9x 22:23:17 one of these days I wish I would know enough to make my own DOS-oriented distro (based on uber-lean Linux, most likely) 22:23:18 I fail to see the point of windows OR dos 22:23:20 seriously 22:23:38 "run DOS from Win9x" ... but it ain't free and limits you in some ways 22:23:42 there is no universal solution 22:23:51 I grew up on macs. Used windows for a short while (including XP). But then went completely Linu 22:23:52 linux* 22:23:55 various distros 22:23:58 NT didn't drop DOS completely, just much weaker support 22:24:05 red hat 5.0 was the first linux distro I tried 22:24:08 it was pretty bad 22:24:13 AnMaster: DOS is mostly useful by merit of being a very low-level OS that's at least vaguely usable. 22:24:17 still compared to windows back then it was awesome 22:24:23 DOS has "no point" if you're not used to it 22:24:29 pikhq, very very vaguely 22:24:36 just like C++ or Java have no point if you don't grok them 22:24:46 Rugxulo, I grok more C++ than I'd want to 22:24:51 for my own sanity I mean 22:24:55 * AnMaster shudders at templates 22:24:59 I have come to grok C++ template programming. 22:25:02 * pikhq shudders 22:25:12 dunno, I like DOS stuff but it's rare to find some use where you couldn't do it in win32 instead 22:25:24 madbrain: Loadlin? 22:25:34 what is that? 22:25:37 that's because Win32 has had most everything from DOS ported to it (and Linux also), plus all new stuff only targets the main three (OS X, Win32, Linux) 22:25:41 A Linux bootloader. 22:25:50 And a DOS executable. 22:26:21 shudder 22:26:28 just use grub 1 or lilo or something 22:26:34 (no, don't use grub 2) 22:26:34 It's nowhere near as crazy a hack as you'd think, too. 22:26:44 probably more useful when UMSDOS worked (2.4 kernels) 22:26:57 Rugxulo, what was the point of UMDOS 22:27:03 * AnMaster forgot what UMDOS even was 22:27:07 or UMSDOS 22:27:08 no need to repartition just to try Linux 22:27:09 AnMaster: Dual-boot Linux/Windows setups. 22:27:09 or whatever 22:27:16 just dump some files atop your pre-existing FAT and voila 22:27:18 Very useful before XP. 22:27:21 um like a disk image file? 22:27:26 oh I see 22:27:28 no 22:27:42 No, the Linux filesystem was FAT. 22:27:46 mkdir linux ; cd linux ; unzip old_linux.zip ; linux.bat (runs) 22:28:14 it used FAT as host file system, no ext2 required 22:28:17 (... with extra metadata) 22:28:30 ---linux.--- (or similar, I forget) 22:28:39 this was before QEMU, BOCHS, etc. became popular 22:28:47 even 2.4 had ext3 iirc? 22:28:55 well not early ones 22:28:57 but later on 22:29:23 * AnMaster prefers virtualbox over those 22:29:26 yeah, but you can't run DOS or Windows on ext3, and plus usually those took up the whole drive by default 22:29:42 I like VirtualBox too, it runs very well (when it works, which is most of the time, thankfully) 22:29:53 Rugxulo, resize partitions? I'm pretty sure there was some tool for it 22:29:56 even back then 22:30:05 assuming you actually wanted to resize 22:30:08 Rugxulo, except for plan9 22:30:14 then you need qemu 22:30:24 this was probably also before liveCDs became popular 22:30:59 no I really fails to see the point of DOS or windows. DOS very much so 22:31:05 completely pointless nowdays 22:31:30 Kind of like esoteric programming 22:31:38 UMSDOS predates emulation at sane speed. 22:31:55 DOS is pointless if you don't know / like it 22:32:08 DOS had a point when window's gfx stuff was too slow 22:32:30 Deewiant, not quite. If /// was TC or not was pretty interesting 22:32:32 for example 22:32:56 madbrain, I said "nowdays" 22:32:57 But quite pointless. 22:33:18 C64 I can understand people being nostalgic about 22:33:22 I like DOS mostly for my familiarity with it and its small size 22:33:24 but DOS‽‽‽‽ 22:33:32 Why C64 but not DOS? 22:33:43 well, the c64 did have a flavor yeah 22:33:43 Deewiant, to begin with: SID chipset 22:33:44 DOS has lots of good games, too 22:33:56 Rugxulo, not what I'm talking about 22:33:57 I think SID is overrated though 22:34:09 AnMaster: Why SID but not PC speaker? 22:34:18 Deewiant, because SID actually sounded good? 22:34:19 Or adlib, or Roland MT-32, or whatever 22:34:27 plus I can beep the pc speaker inside linux 22:34:29 PC speaker sounded good too 22:34:29 if I want too 22:34:30 easily 22:34:38 And you can emulate a SID easily 22:34:42 Deewiant, yes 22:34:52 which is why I don't have a c64. I use an emulator 22:34:56 well, on PC most games that sounded good had soundtracks mixed in real time 22:35:10 madbrain, probably. What about it? 22:35:18 and what was adlib? 22:35:29 or Roland MT-32? (sounds familiar, unlike adlib) 22:35:35 adlib is actually complex and interesting hardware 22:35:49 roland mt-32 sounded a lot better but nobody had that 22:35:53 way too expensive 22:36:11 madbrain, oh? how do they compare to stuff like my Soundblaster Live! 5.1? 22:36:13 plus most of the sounds are in ROM and you can't change them 22:36:14 Love it's sound 22:36:40 The SB live is, like, a DSP 22:36:54 you give it something like 512 instructions to process sound 22:36:54 madbrain, indeed. And it has good bass tones 22:37:05 Even the adlib has good bass 22:37:20 http://www.adlibtracker.net/ 22:37:22 madbrain, actually I just use it for it's hardware midi and good bass compared to on board sound 22:37:31 (somebody in here claimed to write some stuff with that, madbrain???) 22:37:36 * AnMaster is using a 71 MB soundfont 22:37:41 ruxglo: yeah 22:37:59 and (surprise!) AT2 needs DOS ;-) 22:38:09 ruxglo: http://8bitcollective.com/music/mad/Oskari+goes+to+Soundblasterland/ 22:38:31 madbrain, FM synth? 22:38:34 yeah, AdT2 is hard to run out of dos 22:38:38 anmaster: yeah 22:38:40 what is that 22:38:45 I'm used to high quality samples 22:38:57 because I care about that sort of stuff 22:39:07 basically the adlib combines 2 waveforms to make a more complicated one 22:39:32 madbrain, oh algorithmic synth is inferior to samples 22:39:36 if that is what you mean 22:39:50 adlib is an algorithmic synth yes 22:40:11 mt-32 is also partially algorithmic, and partially (very small) samples 22:40:22 madbrain, I have a roland electric piano next to me. Should tell you I expect some decent sound :P 22:40:30 when playing 22:40:31 mt-32 has reverb though 22:41:27 madbrain, was that one of your songs? 22:41:32 yeah 22:41:34 madbrain, you can emulate it in software on modern hardware 22:41:37 easily 22:41:39 yaeh 22:41:39 sounds good ;-) 22:41:50 sound hardware is basically dead 22:41:51 which is not exactly true of my sb live yet 22:42:16 anmaster: you could probably rip the samples out of it and reverse engineer its reverb :D 22:42:22 madbrain, depends. my sb live does manage better low bass (25 Hz and below) than any on board stuff 22:42:31 that I have seen 22:42:33 and yes 22:42:40 I have professional headphones. 22:42:46 I can hear those tones 22:43:00 the on board via just cuts off below 50 Hz 22:43:16 might be due to stupid DAC design on onboard 22:43:26 whatever the laptop has cuts off below 45 Hz. But below 70 Hz it is very weak 22:43:34 I think it is intel on board 22:43:43 aha yeah they do that on laptops sometimes 22:43:50 they put a highpass filter 22:43:54 dumbest idea ever 22:43:58 ouch 22:44:02 why? 22:44:06 no idea 22:44:09 madbrain, and the via stuff is on desktop 22:44:10 might be battery related 22:44:37 maybe you could get unfiltered sound with some soldiering 22:44:49 madbrain, it's less than half a year. No way 22:45:03 madbrain, btw my headphones are http://www.beyerdynamic.de/en/broadcast-studio-video-production/products/headphonesheadsets/headphones.html?tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1%5BshowUid%5D%5BshowUID%5D=41&tx_sbproductdatabase_pi1%5BshowUid%5D%5BbackPID%5D=93&cHash=0fd1ee1ab1 22:45:31 nice 22:46:00 I don't have a budget for that sort of expensive stuff yeah 22:46:13 luckily classical music doesn't suffer quite as much from that cut off as other music 22:46:18 still it suffers 22:46:43 and I love classical music. And also other art music from other periods. Like the romantic period 22:47:10 what you could do is use the SBlive then 22:47:21 madbrain, yep. But not when traveling with my laptop 22:47:29 of course those headphones are pretty bulky 22:47:47 madbrain, only complaint I have is listed in that link: 22:47:49 "Average pressure on ear acc. to IEC 60268-7 4.5 N" 22:48:06 I think this is mechanical pressure 22:48:10 from the headphones 22:48:36 slightly too much to be completely comfortable for long time wear 22:51:40 but yeah many DOS games use software synthesis instead 22:52:31 which depends on the quality of the samples but is usually good 22:52:36 madbrain, most of the time I prefer real recorded music. High quality stuff. CDs 22:52:49 or CDs ripped to lossless 22:55:18 AnMaster, how much RAM does your laptop have? 22:55:45 dunno about CD audio... it sounds good but it tends to be a tad more disconnected from the game action 22:55:57 Rugxulo, 4 GB. Why? 22:56:13 okay, that's what I thought I remembered 22:56:14 was 2 GB initially 22:56:20 added another 2 22:56:32 madbrain, oh I didn't mean for game 22:56:44 madbrain, I meant for sitting back and enjoying a symphony 22:57:26 I wonder what you use those 4 GB for ;-) 22:57:38 Rugxulo, hm? 22:57:50 well. why 2 when I can use 4? 22:58:11 eats more battery power 22:58:33 Rugxulo, not much. Was like a 5 minute difference 22:59:07 Rugxulo, and I usually need no more than 2 hours in one run 22:59:30 * Rugxulo wishes all laptops lasted 12 hours ... 23:00:04 same 23:00:34 P.S. speaking of music for DOS, http://www.oldskool.org/pc/MONOTONE 23:00:35 ;-) 23:01:02 Rugxulo, what is a tracker exactly? 23:01:23 also on my laptop if I turn off the speakers, the pcspeaker doesn't beep 23:01:24 anmaster: type of music program that originated on the amiga 23:01:31 * AnMaster guess it is emulated in the BIOS or such 23:01:49 anmaster: the amiga had 4 sample playing channels so its music software was based around that 23:02:09 madbrain, couldn't play any wave tone? 23:02:12 just samples? 23:02:13 tracker is usually used to describe .MOD editors, etc. 23:02:24 wave and samples are the same thing 23:02:26 Rugxulo, hah. haven't seen a *.mod in ages 23:02:40 well, this isn't .MOD either, it's a custom format ;-) 23:02:41 madbrain, samples to me means samples like in a soundfont 23:02:44 for midi 23:02:55 About half of the music I listen to is *.{mod,s3m,it,xm} 23:03:09 Deewiant, seen all of those except it 23:03:14 what is the difference between them 23:03:16 .it = Impulse Tracker 23:03:18 Well, for the past two years or so it's been about all of the music I listen to 23:03:44 AnMaster: Different trackers' formats. 23:04:01 .mod is oldest (with a few extensions), .s3m is from Scream Tracker 3 (circa 1994), .xm is from Fast Tracker (mid 90s), .it is from Impulse Tracker (late '90s) 23:04:03 mhm 23:04:05 ProTracker, Scream Tracker 3, Impulse Tracker and FastTracker 2. 23:04:05 anmaster: basically each one is a sucessive improvement over the previous one (mod->s3m->xm->it) 23:04:23 I see 23:04:28 except Impulse Tracker is specifically meant as a better Scream Tracker 23:04:33 same exact interface 23:04:35 whatever is wrong with *.ogg and *.flac these days :P 23:05:05 AnMaster, I think your problem is that you don't realize that the world existed before Core 2, 4 GB RAM, 64-bit, etc. ;-) 23:05:10 you can't rip the samples out of them or snoop how the dude composed music :D 23:05:20 Rugxulo, I certainly do. But I grew up with mac 23:05:28 I can go on being nostalgic about old mac games 23:05:30 if you want 23:05:48 Wait, old Macs had games? ;-) 23:05:48 except, I uh don't see the point. I'm nostalgic like twice a year 23:05:53 but you keep saying, "What's the point?" as if it was always so cut and dry 23:05:53 and find my old ibook 23:05:56 with dead mattery 23:06:17 Rugxulo, yes. Because these sound awful compared even to macs from the same year 23:06:25 I'm nostalgic at least once per day 23:06:32 Deewiant, age? 23:06:33 beauty is in the eye of the beholder 23:06:39 AnMaster: 21. 23:07:10 Rugxulo, okay I do get nostalgic over Myst. Especially with the sound of the CD drive of a performa 5600 in the background (or was it 5200? I forgot...) 23:07:19 a twinkee is inferior to a real cake but still a bit tasty nevertheless 23:07:36 `google define:twinkee 23:07:39 hm? 23:07:43 `define twinkee 23:07:43 twinkie* 23:07:47 `define twinke 23:07:51 `echo test 23:07:54 No output. 23:07:57 uh 23:07:58 what 23:08:00 * A Twinkie is a "Golden Sponge Cake with Creamy Filling" popular in the United States and elsewhere in North America. ... \ [14]en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinkee \ 23:08:00 `ls 23:08:04 okay 23:08:04 there you go 23:08:05 test 23:08:06 No output. 23:08:07 Gregor, I think it is slow 23:08:13 bin \ help.txt \ huh \ karma \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.658 23:08:38 `ls bin 23:08:46 ... 23:08:49 ? \ addquote \ calc \ commands \ creatures \ define \ esolang \ etymology \ fortune \ google \ helpme \ imdb \ karma \ minifind \ paste \ ping \ quote \ rec \ runfor \ sayhi \ strfile \ toutf8 \ translate \ translatefromto \ translateto \ unstr \ url \ wolfram 23:08:52 very slow indeed 23:11:07 Rugxulo, also I could get faux nostalgic about old unix 23:11:23 Rugxulo, oh ever played Myst? 23:11:43 * AnMaster wonders if you can emulate a pre-OS X PPC mac on linux easily 23:11:52 an eary ppc would do 23:12:41 yes I have Myst on both PC and Atari JagCD 23:12:52 came close to beating it in 2005 but never did finish (haven't played it much since) 23:13:15 it's not faux nostalgia, DOS lives (barely), just some of us find it interesting 23:13:20 * Gregor kills a runaway process on codu. 23:13:21 `ls 23:13:22 bin \ help.txt \ huh \ karma \ paste \ quotes \ share \ tmpdir.914 23:13:24 Rugxulo, finished it 23:13:24 Heh :P 23:13:29 without walkthroughs 23:13:32 and on mac 23:13:43 I got stuck at that maze underground, couldn't figure out what to do 23:13:51 not afraid of cheating, just too lazy to bother I guess 23:14:09 Rugxulo, oh in the sound world? 23:14:10 I hear some of the sequels are good, though, but never tried 'em 23:14:20 no, in the tunnel car thingy 23:14:30 Rugxulo, with faux nostalgia I meant "never used those, so can't be nostalgic about them, but still is" 23:14:37 it's kinda an underwhelming game in some ways (very isolating) 23:14:41 Rugxulo, that was in the soundworld 23:14:46 sound world* 23:14:50 I probably missed something obvious 23:14:57 I should probably go ahead and cheat and finish it one of these days 23:14:58 Rugxulo, something rather non-obvious 23:15:12 Rugxulo, you got sounds indicating direction you should go 23:15:14 basically 23:15:28 PPC? PearPC? (dunno really) 23:15:46 Rugxulo, isn't it OS X only? 23:15:49 I still need to finish Gabriel Knight 1 one of these days 23:15:52 no idea 23:16:01 but QEMU supports other arches, doesn't it?? 23:16:46 argh indeed 23:16:55 Ruĝulo? 23:16:59 Rugxulo, yeah but not Mac as such 23:17:13 wrong hardware emulated iirc 23:17:14 Warrigal: yes? 23:17:21 AnMaster, ever tried Ardi's Executor? 23:17:27 (but that was mostly System 6, I think) 23:17:27 Just wondering if that's also your name. 23:17:29 Rugxulo, never heard of it 23:17:35 my nickname, yes 23:17:51 http://github.com/ctm/executor 23:18:05 ran on DOS at one point (circa 1996) using DJGPP 23:18:16 Rugxulo, need to run PPC binaries 23:18:17 now it's been ported to Linux 23:18:20 Rugxulo, for those old games 23:18:32 ah, well this is 68000 (only I think??) 23:18:38 yeah 23:18:40 that's the issue 23:18:46 still I have that old ibook 23:18:52 whenever I get nostalgic 23:19:18 bah, no PPC, sorry 23:19:28 easy to forget all their billions of transitions 23:19:43 apple? yeah 23:20:06 oh and PearPC seems dead 23:20:10 last news item in 2005 23:21:14 I'm sure someone has done it, just dunno who 23:21:41 -!- adam_d has quit ("Leaving"). 23:29:16 noticeably different keyboard on this laptop than P4 (harder to play Llamatron, barely) 23:30:04 Llamatron :-D 23:30:07 long story short, I'm 30 (not that old), but I do remember DOS + Win 3.1 23:30:09 That game was awesome 23:30:27 and I still use old computers, hence I need a "lite" OS more than "lightweight Linux" (128 MB??? o_O) 23:30:36 s/old/ancient/ 23:31:01 works well in DOSBox :-) 23:31:06 QEMU does some Macintosh hardware bits too. No idea how complete it is; personally I've just played around with PearPC. 23:33:23 Deewiant: http://www.llamasoft.co.uk 23:33:42 Yeah, I know of the new ones 23:34:00 no, I mean old Llamasoft is freely available there 23:34:56 Ah, so it is. 23:34:58 There was that one iPhone-runs-System 7-with-QEMU newspost -- http://mobile.osnews.com/printer.php?news_id=21045 though the actual site seems less alive -- that might've been with the m68k emulator, who knows -- qemu site hardware target list has "G3 Beige PowerMac (PowerPC processor)". 23:35:45 Llamatron? 23:35:50 what the hell is that 23:35:56 game 23:36:01 weird clone of Robotron 23:36:09 QEMU does some Macintosh hardware bits too. No idea how complete it is; personally I've just played around with PearPC. <-- which doesn't do pre-OS X 23:36:18 weird clone of Robotron <-- never heard of that 23:36:31 Robotron is from like 1980 or so 23:36:52 sorry, 1982 23:36:53 http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9347 23:36:59 it's on Midway Arcade Treasures 1 23:38:06 AnMaster: Well, there's SheepShaver; that one does pre-OS X only ("7.5.2 thru 9.0.4"), don't know how well. 23:38:16 fizzie, could work 23:38:58 what's the point?? ;-)) 23:39:20 Rugxulo, yeah. good point. Since I have that old ibook when I want this 23:39:39 Rugxulo, still the OS is at least better than DOS 23:39:49 so it is less pointless 23:39:58 if you say so ;-) 23:40:02 DOS has more apps :-P 23:40:12 Rugxulo, mac apps were better. 23:40:27 nope ;-) 23:40:31 and charm 23:41:20 SheepShaver's supposed to run pretty well on actual PowerPC systems, if you want just virtualizationary stuff; I gather the PowerPC core emulation isn't all that hot, though certainly with modern processors it might not be such a big issue. 23:41:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llamatron <-- ugh arcade style 23:41:58 * AnMaster always preferred games where you could win. Not more and more levels all the time 23:43:14 fizzie, I want sound and ability to run OS 8 or OS 9 to run some old games. Mostly turn based. Though one "real" time 23:43:27 arcade style is unavoidable when cloning an arcade game ;-) 23:43:39 Rugxulo, which is why you shouldn't 23:43:42 what, you don't like trying to beat your high score?? 23:43:47 It did have an ending, didn't it? 23:43:50 I remember being envious of a Mac-using friend, because he had that funky paper airplane game. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glider_PRO) 23:43:52 Rugxulo, I prefer RPGs 23:43:54 with lots of text 23:43:55 dunno, never beat it ;-) 23:44:10 what about Nanosaur :D 23:44:19 coppro, oh I think my mac had that 23:44:23 I sucked at it 23:45:20 I miss those types of games. 23:45:23 (Well, Glider 4 or something, but I don't think that has a Wikipedia article.) 23:45:47 -!- oerjan has joined. 23:45:58 fizzie, screenshot? 23:46:33 AnMaster: http://www.lauppert.ws/screen1/mac/glider.png 23:46:39 The games are nowadays free, it seems. 23:46:57 fizzie, what was the objective? 23:47:31 Hey, I remember playing something like that. 23:47:52 To fly the paper airplane through the house, avoiding all obstacles. (IIRC, the only controls you had were "left" and "right" to toggle the direction; heat vents made the airplane go up, in other places it just glided slowly downwards.) 23:48:13 Possibly a ripoff of some kind, since I think it was on a PC. It /was/ a paper aeroplane. 23:48:17 Those things on the floor in that screenshot are heat vents, I think. 23:48:23 Deewiant: There's a Windows port of Glider 4.0. 23:48:30 Deewiant: http://homepage.mac.com/calhoun/Downloads.html 23:48:35 If you feel like checking. 23:48:51 (The "PRO" version probably has colors and everything.) 23:48:55 I wonder what the time stamp on that thing is. 23:49:13 The Wikipedia article doesn't even mention a Windows version. 23:49:37 Deewiant: Right, because the Wikipedia article is for the PRO version. 23:49:43 Bah. 23:51:52 Oh, and the eponymous glider gets electrocuted if you fly it directly in front of a electricity wall socket thing. That's very realistic; I get shocked every time I walk past a wall outlet too. 23:51:58 why is a screenshot so much worse than a picture of a car when it comes to license? 23:52:02 on wikipedia I mean 23:53:31 dunno, useless pedantry 23:53:42 fizzie, I hope not ;-) 23:54:35 fizzie: lousy grounding i bet