00:03:53 Hypothetically it isn't, really it is. 00:04:13 I'm finding it absurdly difficult to find a freaking source tarball. 00:04:39 funbot style! 00:04:55 fax: But, they offer source .debs. 00:04:56 http://www.plash.beasts.org/packages/plash_1.19.orig.tar.gz 00:05:06 Dankon. 00:05:59 It's still pretty Debian-specific though. 00:06:21 I'm going to experiment for a bit. 00:06:30 And if it doesn't work, much violence will be performed. 00:17:31 -!- coppro has joined. 00:17:40 "checking for x86_64-linux-gnu-gcc... gcc-4.1 -fno-stack-protector 00:17:41 " 00:17:53 From the attempt to build plash-glibc. 00:17:55 *facepalm* 00:20:32 Hyuk 00:20:47 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 00:31:36 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:32:08 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 00:35:57 -!- Azstal has joined. 00:49:57 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 00:59:38 -!- fax has quit (Client Quit). 01:01:49 -!- coppro has quit ("I am leaving. You are about to explode."). 01:02:28 -!- iamcal has quit. 01:03:58 -!- coppro has joined. 01:27:34 night 01:35:28 -!- jix has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 01:41:57 -!- Azstal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 02:53:49 -!- oerjan has joined. 02:55:35 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 03:07:17 -!- madbr has joined. 03:07:19 hey 03:10:32 -!- augur has joined. 03:22:45 -!- oerjan has quit ("Reboot"). 03:27:58 -!- augur has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:27:58 -!- coppro has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:27:58 -!- MizardX has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:27:58 -!- HackEgo has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:27:59 -!- sebbu has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:01 -!- AnMaster has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:02 -!- Gracenotes has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:05 -!- Guest7354 has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:06 -!- Warrigal has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:09 -!- Cerise has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:09 -!- Slereah has quit (zelazny.freenode.net irc.freenode.net). 03:28:54 -!- augur has joined. 03:28:54 -!- coppro has joined. 03:28:54 -!- MizardX has joined. 03:28:54 -!- Gracenotes has joined. 03:28:54 -!- HackEgo has joined. 03:28:54 -!- sebbu has joined. 03:28:54 -!- Guest7354 has joined. 03:28:54 -!- AnMaster has joined. 03:28:54 -!- Warrigal has joined. 03:29:35 -!- Cerise has joined. 03:29:35 -!- Slereah has joined. 03:29:43 -!- madbr has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 03:47:08 -!- madbr has joined. 04:21:22 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 04:22:21 -!- puzzlet has joined. 06:19:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 06:19:39 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:38:41 Gregor: you're still doing this clone-at-every-turn thing? 06:38:46 -!- kar8nga has joined. 06:45:53 Gregor: I think you'd be pleased to know that your elfloader thing (barely) works on x86_64-pc-linux-gnu. 06:46:19 (though only on staticly linked binaries -- it throws up on trying to load /lib/ldlinux.so) 06:49:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection). 06:49:44 -!- madbr has quit ("Radiateur"). 07:33:13 -!- coppro has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 07:52:33 -!- immibis has joined. 07:59:59 -!- clog has quit (ended). 08:00:00 -!- clog has joined. 08:03:08 pikhq, what does the elfloader thing do? 08:09:49 -!- immibis has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.4/20091016092926]"). 08:23:53 -!- cal153 has joined. 08:56:48 -!- Pthing has joined. 10:19:02 -!- puzzlet has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 10:19:06 -!- puzzlet has joined. 10:35:36 -!- FireFly has joined. 11:03:10 -!- BeholdMyGlory has joined. 11:09:41 -!- ais523 has joined. 11:11:21 aargh 11:11:26 they blacklisted the PC speaker kernel module in 9.10 11:11:29 to avoid the beep-on-shutdown bug 11:11:37 that is really not the right way to fix a bug... 11:24:09 -!- jix has joined. 12:03:23 -!- Asztal has joined. 12:31:25 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 12:32:38 -!- Asztal has joined. 12:48:14 -!- ais523 has quit. 12:48:34 -!- ais523 has joined. 12:53:48 -!- oerjan has joined. 12:55:01 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 12:56:37 -!- Asztal has joined. 13:12:55 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:13:39 -!- Asztal has joined. 13:16:16 ais523, agreed 13:16:40 ais523, in fact, I would say that the new behaviour is a bug 13:16:54 oerjan, iwcx 13:16:56 oerjan, iwc* 13:17:37 iwc: the grammaring 13:20:59 indeed 13:21:09 * AnMaster is irritated that sheepshaver requires sysctl -w vm.mmap_min_addr=0 13:21:10 to run 13:29:57 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 13:33:38 -!- Asztal has joined. 13:49:56 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 13:53:38 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:10:27 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:13:38 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:29:56 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 14:32:32 -!- augur has quit ("Leaving..."). 14:33:38 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:50:42 -!- Asztal has quit (Connection timed out). 14:52:38 -!- Asztal has joined. 14:52:49 -!- Asztal has quit (Client Quit). 15:05:18 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 15:12:29 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 15:15:00 -!- EgoBot has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 15:15:13 -!- EgoBot has joined. 15:25:51 -!- augur has joined. 15:30:09 -!- HackEgo has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 15:30:15 -!- HackEgo has joined. 16:32:56 -!- ais523 has joined. 16:42:13 -!- MigoMipo has joined. 16:43:16 -!- fax has joined. 17:21:37 -!- MizardX has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)). 17:21:40 -!- MizardX has joined. 18:30:04 -!- BeholdMyGlory has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory_. 18:30:05 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory__. 18:30:29 -!- BeholdMyGlory__ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory_. 18:30:41 -!- BeholdMyGlory_ has changed nick to BeholdMyGlory. 19:09:40 -!- Gracenotes has quit (Remote closed the connection). 19:18:07 -!- oerjan has quit ("Good night"). 19:45:21 -!- FireFly has joined. 19:48:17 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has joined. 20:07:16 -!- Pthing has quit (Remote closed the connection). 20:46:02 http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/technotes/tb/tb_10.html 20:46:06 I think the title is wrong there 20:46:11 agree ais523 ? 20:46:21 says "Legacy Mac OS X Reference Library" 20:46:22 hardly 20:46:31 I don't really get what you're on about 20:46:34 "[Mar 01 1988]" 20:46:42 ais523, look at the date of that technical note 20:46:51 then look at the header thingy for that secion 20:46:53 section* 20:46:57 which says "Legacy Mac OS X Reference Library" 20:47:05 except, this is from before Mac OS X was invented! 20:47:09 for all I know that API still exists in OSX 20:47:26 ais523, I don't think that would apply here. XD 20:50:48 ais523, also what about this one "Macintosh Plus Pinouts" 21:03:01 -!- KingOfKarlsruhe has quit (Remote closed the connection). 21:37:46 ais523, oh god, I just ended up being randomly highlighted by some noob so noobish I never seen anything as bad 21:38:42 what is googl 21:38:42 hadge_, web search engine. You know where you search in the browser. Maybe you use some other search engine *shrug* 21:38:42 I have something called yahoo.com 21:38:56 sigh, why did I even answer the highlight 21:39:23 also it gets worse 21:39:48 -!- FireFly has quit ("Later"). 21:41:03 Anyone know how to restart a machine 21:41:05 sigh 21:51:41 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 21:52:21 ais523, have you seen ehird recently at all? 21:52:38 no 21:52:58 ais523, any idea if something happened to his net connection or such? 21:53:06 no, why would I? 21:53:19 meh. UK is small (area-wise) 21:53:20 ;P 21:53:30 (well, at least compared to Sweden) 21:53:41 (and yes I invented that justification afterwards) 21:56:46 ais523, wikipedia question: 21:56:49 "According to Archive.org since at least February 11, 2008 the URL address http://www.apple.com/hypercard no longer points to Apple's site but redirects to this Wikipedia article." 21:57:02 why the "according to archive.org" but 21:57:03 bit* 21:57:10 is there some policy reason for it? 21:57:11 for historical info, presumably 21:57:15 and yes, it's a citation 21:57:21 ais523, it still does redirect like that 21:57:22 -!- fax has quit (Client Quit). 21:57:23 I checked 21:57:30 ais523, but why :P 21:57:43 I mean, this seems like it wouldn't need a citation. 21:57:47 or maybe *shrug* 21:58:15 -!- fax has joined. 22:02:20 -!- MigoMipo has quit (Ping timeout: 180 seconds). 22:07:56 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 22:21:02 -!- BeholdMyGlory has quit (Remote closed the connection). 22:27:59 No original research! 22:30:32 * AnMaster plays around with hypercard 22:31:03 hypercard is cool 22:31:10 yeah. kind of 22:32:30 i don't understand what the lecturer was talking about, turing machines are totally fun to program and run manually 22:32:46 oklopol, heh? what did he say? 22:32:54 * oklopol just accepted a^(2^2) 22:33:01 oklopol: You are probably in the minority, though. 22:33:06 well he said the opposite 22:33:24 Every lecturer on a computer science basics course is contractually obligated to say the opposite. 22:33:31 Ours did, too. 22:33:58 this is not a basics course, although we are doing basics of tm's atm 22:33:59 Every lecturer on a computer science basics course is contractually obligated to say the opposite. ← why? 22:34:26 It's because of the Conspiracy. 22:34:49 See, they've tried to infect Wikipedia too: "Turing machines *are not intended as a practical computing technology*, but rather as a thought experiment representing a computing machine." -- emphasis mine. 22:34:59 :/ 22:36:51 i get two entirely different, but equally great pleasures, from 1. fitting tons of state interaction info in my head 2. running the machine without thinking, and watching it slowly do its magic 22:37:37 oklopol, heh 22:38:18 String rewriting languages are also nice to watch. 22:38:19 what is the proof for turing machines having the properties they do? 22:38:37 I mean, you can't reduce it to another turing complete language 22:38:39 i mean as long as the program is simple enough i can do it without any sort of compilation 22:38:44 (that kind of defeats the point) 22:38:57 once you do compilation, you might just as well use a better language 22:38:59 err 22:39:10 AnMaster: what do you mean? 22:39:22 oklopol, not sure XD 22:39:27 ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT CLOSURE PROPERTIES 22:39:37 oklopol, unkown. I'm too sleepy 22:39:42 oklopol: IS YOUR SHIFT KEY STUCK? 22:40:01 the families of R and RE languages are closed under pretty much everything 22:40:14 fizzie: no, some things just need to be said in uppercase 22:41:16 oklopol, I mean. How do you prove UTMs are TC. Basically. 22:41:21 you don't 22:41:25 well apart from that being the definition of TC 22:41:36 so lets rephrase that 22:41:54 what you do is you define turing machines and define computation as what they do. 22:42:13 then the empty proof proves they are TC 22:42:18 :) 22:42:40 empty proof heh 22:43:03 oklopol, what about the stuff about that being the best possible class. Well apart from those oracle machines (which no one explains how they would be implemented) 22:43:23 fax, yeah made me think of "empty set" 22:43:44 well it's sort of relevant http://terrytao.wordpress.com/2009/11/05/the-no-self-defeating-object-argument/ 22:43:58 I just really liked that article 22:44:13 since he mentions turning machine :/ 22:44:20 AnMaster: it's not the best possible class, RE is a proper subset of 2^({0,1}*) 22:44:31 that is, there are languages that need a stronger machine 22:44:53 oklopol, best possible plausible class? Or what is the point of it 22:45:08 define plausible 22:45:15 oklopol, I don't know 22:45:16 But there's a whole pile of other models of computation, for which you can prove that a Turing machine can do the same things. The proofs of course depend on what you're comparing to. 22:45:22 AnMaster: neither does anyone else 22:45:28 AnMaster a lot of people say "turing machine/lambda calculus/whatever can compute anything you want it to" 22:45:37 oklopol, I don't know *what* it is I don't know 22:45:40 it's kinda vauge and meaningless as far as I could tell 22:46:32 AnMaster: turing machines have no mathematical property that makes them the best possible plausible class. 22:46:39 they just correspond nicely to our intuition 22:46:44 of what computation si 22:46:45 *is 22:47:07 hm 22:47:27 i suggest you just believe me :P 22:47:38 -!- sebbu has joined. 22:47:39 anyway look up church turing thesis 22:48:39 err well RE obviously isn't closed under complementation 22:48:48 but anyway 22:49:00 R is very flexible 22:50:00 night 22:50:04 night 22:50:52 -!- augur has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)). 22:53:25 -!- Pthing has joined. 22:58:03 -!- ais523 has quit (Remote closed the connection). 23:04:08 -!- sebbu2 has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)). 23:06:30 AnMaster: there is no theorem that Turing machines are the best possible computational class in any way; the Church-Turing statement is the unproven statement that it's the best computational class we can build. 23:07:02 Or, alternatively, the best computational class the brain can simulate. 23:10:58 ...Actually, I'm sure there is a theorem that Turing machines are the best possible computational class where if the machine outputs something, there is a proof that it does. 23:11:22 -!- comex has joined. 23:15:04 -!- coppro has joined. 23:18:04 I thought Church-Turing was that lambda and turning machine are equivalent 23:18:39 looks like I am wrong 23:18:56 it says on the wiki "Informally the Church–Turing thesis states that if an algorithm (a procedure that terminates) exists then there is an equivalent Turing machine, recursively-definable function, or applicable λ-function, for that algorithm. Today the thesis has near-universal acceptance." 23:19:12 but that seems odd because it use the word "exists" in a non-mathematical context 23:19:27 and also it's not clear where this places oracles 23:19:27 Indeed, it does. 23:19:40 It implies that oracles do not "exist". 23:19:43 "Every effectively calculable function is a computable function" 23:19:48 hehe 23:20:31 It would be quite nice if the Church-Turing thesis were that lambda calculus and Turing machines are equivalent. 23:21:25 But it isn't, so we'll have to stick with our Curry-Howard isomorphism. 23:47:59 -!- sebbu2 has joined. 23:55:07 Well, Turing machines can't exist, but close enough I guess 23:55:22 While oracles are like double impossible 23:55:27 -!- sebbu has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).