< 1257984154 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1257984682 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1257984872 0 :boily!n=boily@poste211-170.wl.t.ulaval.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1257985017 0 :boily!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1257985507 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-160-121-103.range86-160.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257985543 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1257985548 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Asztal < 1257986598 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1257987121 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1257987327 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1257989195 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1257990308 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1257990364 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1257990373 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-142-102.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1257992610 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1257993857 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1257994642 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1257995300 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1257996086 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1257997051 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1257997707 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1257998843 0 :Rugxulo!n=chatzill@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1257998873 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: the only place I can find the Funge '97 spec is here: < 1257998874 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.archive.org/web/20000903032408/www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/mtfi/f97.html < 1257998915 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of all his files, only the mtfi121x.zip one is mirrored (8086 DOS version of his Funge '93/'96/'97 interpreter) < 1257998927 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it also compiles with DJGPP, so Linux etc. should work too < 1257998971 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly I'm annoyed that one '93 example I wrote apparently doesn't work correctly in '98 (CCBI or FBBI) < 1257999011 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently the whole "look for blank space and reflect back assuming its end of funge space" doesn't take account of string mode very well < 1257999023 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I consider that a bug < 1257999037 0 :puzzlet_!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1257999090 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(more annoying in that CCBI has no true '93 mode although FBBI and MTFI both have one) < 1257999100 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, whatever < 1257999476 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1257999748 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1257999856 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :puzzlet < 1257999926 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"gxis revido" < 1258000276 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1258002202 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258004965 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-93-42.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1258006408 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1258010108 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Bing has decided to suck more: results to come from W|A. < 1258012799 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1258012800 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1258013446 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258013452 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258015034 0 :{}_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1258015238 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1258015556 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258020231 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1258021043 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1258022400 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258026320 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1258026471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : apparently the whole "look for blank space and reflect back assuming its end of funge space" doesn't take account of string mode very well < 1258026590 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well once you decide not to have a fixed fungespace size, it is hard to treat one end-of-funge-space space differently from another < 1258026859 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you introduced a "nothing there" character, but that could lead to some awful debugging since most editors show that identical to space by default... < 1258026870 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*identically < 1258027410 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: iwc < 1258027553 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Funkiest thing evar: http://detexify.kirelabs.org/classify.html (shamelessly stolen from another #channel). < 1258027569 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258027587 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Doesn't seem to work so terribly well, but I like the idea of it. < 1258027657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: also D&D. they're going to be _so_ happy when the real GM gets back :D < 1258030025 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1258030032 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258030208 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1258032152 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1258036422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1258036427 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1258039289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm where is ehird when you need him < 1258039314 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-155-79-2.range86-155.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1258040575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what on earth "italic correction" is in TeX. < 1258040592 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm getting a warning about it from chktex < 1258042599 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258042604 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258042746 0 :GregorR!n=gregor@65.183.185.22 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258042891 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258043594 0 :mycroftiv!n=drabgah@h69-128-47-245.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258049432 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's the small bit of spacing you need when you have an italic glyph followed by a roman glyph. < 1258049779 0 :FireFly[DS]!n=nds@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1258050054 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258050071 0 :FireyFly[DS]!n=nds@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1258050090 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection reset by peer < 1258050101 0 :FireyFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :FireFly[DS] < 1258050165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well. It is followed by a space. So I'm not sure if this even makes sense < 1258050170 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258050192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and, wouldn't LyX handle that automatically hm < 1258050255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it seems to be after an \emph{foo} < 1258050396 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :\emph is often in italics. I wouldn't know about automatics; you can add a manual "\/" command inside the emph to maybe placate chktex, though I'm not sure if that works. < 1258050951 0 :fax!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1258051174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it doesn't actually look bad though. And strangely enough chktex never warned before when I used \emph (and yes it produced italics then too) < 1258051276 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Did you have something immediately after the \emph{} with no spacing? Since that's usually when it is needed. < 1258051300 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"It" referring to the extra spacing. < 1258051370 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ive decided that just as there is Occams Razor < 1258051378 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a corollary < 1258051381 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Augurs Razor < 1258051383 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that says < 1258051413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given two equally adequate and equally simple theories, the one that is weirdest is best < 1258051464 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not a problem with all letters; and there might even be some automatics nowadays, since the reasonably worst-case "\emph{f}k" and "\textit{f}k" render just fine here with a noticeable gap there. < 1258051540 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But! The raw-TeX "{\it f}k" doesn't render well at all. Strange that chktex would complain about the working variants, though. < 1258051936 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1258052127 0 :FireFly[DS]!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"ClIRC - IRC client for Nintendo DS" < 1258052166 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1258052596 0 :cal153!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258053387 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258053391 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258053879 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!n=nice@p5B1340BB.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258054695 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1258054822 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : given two equally adequate and equally simple theories, the one that is weirdest is best < 1258054920 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'd assume that's implied in the famous bohr quote: "We are all agreed that your theory is crazy. The question that divides us is whether it is crazy enough to have a chance of being correct." < 1258055155 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-64-146.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1258055770 0 :iamcal!n=cal@c-69-181-46-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258055824 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258055917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc. but read it without being connected to bouncer < 1258055922 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which means I count as not here < 1258055945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, so I can just say iwc when you are not here and it will count too! < 1258055971 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well i already did say iwc when you were apparently not here < 1258055991 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yes that is the point. I always wait until you are here < 1258056030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I see no reason to continue doing so < 1258056051 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i always try to check if you are idle, but maybe 3 hours was a bit too large < 1258056074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, 3 hours due to client loosing connection and auto-reconnecting even < 1258056082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :real idle time was closer to 12 hours < 1258056089 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1258056112 0 :Rugxulo!n=chatzill@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258056139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, you could easily have seen that in logs. That I reconnected about 3 hours before that, that is. < 1258056152 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1258056155 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : well once you decide not to have a fixed fungespace size, it is hard to treat one end-of-funge-space space differently from another < 1258056155 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm true. i didn't think of that. < 1258056168 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, it should know when string mode begins and ends, though, right?? < 1258056185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, wouldn't be exactly, client would spend a few minutes after reconnect rejoining channels (due to being in so many here on freenode) < 1258056191 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: i was assuming you were talking about a string mode wrapping around the end? < 1258056197 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1258056212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, what are you doing in before? < 1258056216 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wishes he had a small paste-able example ... < 1258056218 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm then i don't understand < 1258056234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, some fungoid? < 1258056256 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about Befunge98 not accepting Befunge93 correctly < 1258056272 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the whitespace inside quotes " x " (string mode) is confusing it < 1258056276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, uh well yeah it isn't completely compatible. It is well known. The SGM spaces for example < 1258056283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SGML* < 1258056289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, sounds like SGML space rule < 1258056292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see spec < 1258056313 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html#Strings < 1258056314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be specific < 1258056343 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, further, if a befunge93 program depends on something like x just reflecting it won't work in 98 eithger < 1258056345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either* < 1258056369 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :,,,,,@ < 1258056377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the reason for SGML spaces is probably due to it wrapping < 1258056393 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh then that is something i didn't know about. < 1258056413 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :98 isn't identical to 93 < 1258056415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, what exactly do you expect that to do? I expect it to print (C string notation here): " x \0\0" < 1258056427 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's two spaces on each side < 1258056435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, did you read the link above? < 1258056436 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiple spaces count as one space in 98 < 1258056438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, do it < 1258056439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :please < 1258056441 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, I'm not really familiar with Befunge98 (kinda confusing, honestly) < 1258056443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it will explain it < 1258056446 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm reading it now < 1258056454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, because otherwise you'd get a near-infinite number of spaces if a string wrapped < 1258056463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "near"? < 1258056469 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the string doesn't wrap, just has some whitespace in it < 1258056472 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, at least in efunge you would get infinite < 1258056482 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I guess since it could in theory ... < 1258056486 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: arguably, you'd get 2^32 for a 32-bit funge < 1258056501 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes but efunge is bignum < 1258056526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you would get infinite in theory (of course in practise it would run out of memory before that) < 1258056544 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, yes it applies to all strings < 1258056561 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is string wrapping really that useful or common?? < 1258056574 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, silly question, but still ... ;-) < 1258056586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I have done it I'm pretty sure. Can't remember when though < 1258056597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably when something didn't fit < 1258056607 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean in 93 or 98? < 1258056609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I'm quite sure that mycology tests it. < 1258056612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, in 98 of course < 1258056618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't code in 93 at all < 1258056619 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how didn't it fit? < 1258056641 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, if 98 isn't limited like 93, then why need to wrap strings? < 1258056661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, didn't fit due to surrounding code. I try to code compact < 1258056696 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, and even when not wrapping it is useful < 1258056711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say you need code to cross, but don't have the space for a # in that direction < 1258056725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there a space one space off, and you can extend that line a bit < 1258056731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well then you have the solution < 1258056749 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION still wonders what Befunge98 examples exist ... < 1258056751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alternative would be to rewrite parts of the code of course < 1258056769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, it is more for writing application programs in? Large programs I mean < 1258056772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1258056773 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some would say "rewrite rewrite rewrite ..." < 1258056788 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, I have never seen anything about Befunge '96 or '97 < 1258056804 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :late last night I posted a (WayBack) link to the '97 spec, though (Ben Olmstead's old page) < 1258056814 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. o for nop (instead of z as in 98) < 1258056819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I would prefer "keep patching, until it looks so improbable and messy that not even the original author can read it" < 1258056819 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda weird < 1258056839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : BTW, I have never seen anything about Befunge '96 or '97 <-- I have seen a few recovered snippets < 1258056848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks he may have some stuff around somewhere < 1258056852 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, I saw *one* example program in '97 (GPL, too, heh) < 1258056862 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1258056886 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ben's MTFI ran on Linux or DOS (16-bit or 32-bit) < 1258056887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes there it is < 1258056894 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but he included no examples < 1258056896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, an 1.9 MB mailing list dump < 1258056898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interested? < 1258056903 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh ... < 1258056907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it conains 97 stuff < 1258056912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :spec drafts and such < 1258056913 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, why not? :-) < 1258056935 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got the spec (from WayBack), just no examples (besides that one signature that draws an ellipse) < 1258056938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Omploaded 'bef_maillist_0_520.txt' to http://omploader.org/vMnI2dg < 1258056939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there < 1258056943 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks ;-) < 1258056954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, also you meant 96 not 98 right? < 1258056964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, link to the spec? < 1258056980 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, apparently there was a '96 too < 1258056985 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea where '96 spec is < 1258056989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, never heard of 98 < 1258056996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I meant to 97 < 1258057026 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, Pressey's latest site doesn't have it, so that doesn't help < 1258057027 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.archive.org/web/20000903032408/www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/mtfi/f97.html < 1258057075 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here's the only '97 example I know of: http://www.bedroomlan.org/hacks/signature-befunge < 1258057077 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/library/TOYS.html does mention it though. < 1258057143 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... barely < 1258057149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, contact that person and ask for what interpreter he used? < 1258057170 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, MTFI works, he probably used that < 1258057199 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MTFI? < 1258057221 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hold on, here's '96 spec (I think): http://web.archive.org/web/20001008142309/www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/mtfi/96.html < 1258057234 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, MTFI is the '93 / '96 / '97 interpreter for Linux and DOS by Ben Olmstead < 1258057328 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the WayBack link to the 8086 version still works, but the source is included, also compiles under DJGPP, so it should work on Linux too (since he had an explicit "Unix" port too) < 1258057332 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.archive.org/web/20000831062334/http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/mtfi/mtfi121x.zip < 1258057347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1258057367 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crap, the Unix link works on this version of the page! < 1258057369 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.archive.org/web/20000831062334/http://www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/mtfi/mtfi-1.21.tar.gz < 1258057379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why "crap" < 1258057380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1258057380 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too bad no MCBC :-( < 1258057386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MCBC? < 1258057387 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :crap as in "wow, oops, surprise" < 1258057394 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MCBC = 386 NASM Befunge compiler < 1258057398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, as for 98 "examples"? what exactly do you mean by that? < 1258057405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1258057405 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1258057411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you have one? < 1258057432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, or not happy with that? < 1258057439 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that the IRC bot? < 1258057442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, yes < 1258057448 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then yes, that counts ;-) < 1258057452 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, that is the code for fungot itself < 1258057452 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: i was just wondering if any current scheme system today. more details, pls. < 1258057459 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just thought '98 seemed overrated for something no one codes in ... < 1258057460 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, there is mycology too. As you probably know < 1258057484 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but a test suite doesn't do much of anything (no offense), I wanted something interesting ;-) < 1258057494 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, people do code in it. Just generally it is complex stuff compared to 93 ones. Thus it isn't really "examples" but "applications" < 1258057538 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, anyway that code file won't work on it's own. It uses a bootloader. Which sets up nick, server and such, then loads the main file < 1258057540 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, I just never saw many (well, any) < 1258057553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot-load-freenode.b98 < 1258057554 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what's the big difference is in the source fnord it isn't in the index. once this is false, another is a sgi indy ( mips, running irix) and a < 1258057558 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258057564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1258057564 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc* jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube < 1258057574 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style youtube < 1258057574 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments) < 1258057575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, you weren't aware of it being in befunge? < 1258057578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1258057589 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: I doubt what you spam will look much different from the original, here < 1258057589 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: wie alle auf einmal opern singen wollen... dreck. who really knows aviation will tell you something, it's dark blond < 1258057598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1258057604 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, I probably fun^H^H^Hforgot < 1258057626 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, what no fjords? < 1258057627 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: lol that was really funny, holding up random stuff made of gold. like time magazine, airliners dot net and at wikipedia? i dont remember seeing any angels in the spotlight, and didn't react fast enough to pull up < 1258057635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, what? < 1258057642 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, fnord yourself < 1258057643 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: ok, farinelli... i got the hell < 1258057652 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, ... < 1258057652 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: agreed, i know the song? :p), there is terror and pain caused by pilot error, didn't know that you've been to france. < 1258057673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :arliners running on .NET code sounds scary < 1258057677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :airliners* < 1258057716 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, why so much about aviation? < 1258057716 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: she makes me jizz in my pants. from reading these 488 hideous comments, heres the conclusion of all the spectators. i liked the scottish budweiser commercial the best < 1258057727 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hehe < 1258057766 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :airliners on .NET? they do have British nuclear subs running Windows though (supposedly) < 1258057866 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1258057954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interesting (from the 97 spec): < 1258057955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In a more ideal universe, ~ may suspend only it's own the thread. Suspending the entire program is the usual and entirely forgivable real behaviour. < 1258057956 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258058070 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the latest version of Ben's copy of the '96 spec is here: < 1258058078 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not sure if it differs from what I listed before) < 1258058080 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://web.archive.org/web/20040221081031/www.mines.edu/students/b/bolmstea/mtfi/96.html < 1258058110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does < 1258058114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say diff < 1258058126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- < 1258058126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-

Befunge-96

< 1258058126 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+

Befunge-96

< 1258058128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for example < 1258058130 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very strange < 1258058379 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Good finds, by the way. I've spent many a time looking for those without success. < 1258058522 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If you wrap in stringmode, the result is undefined." -- MTFI's "notes" file < 1258058718 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think that's ever been true as far as the spec is concerned. It may have made sense in '96, with a bigger playfield but without SGML spaces, and the poor 16-bit implementations. < 1258058765 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :possibly so < 1258058799 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, MTFI "Unix" and "8086" both seem identical except for makefiles and readmes < 1258058846 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can't say for sure, but I'd bet it's GPL because he uses GNU's getopt_long < 1258058888 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(hmmm, actually that part is LGPL here, but if you get it from BinUtils, for example, it's GPL) < 1258058906 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear, a case of the viral GPL < 1258058915 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*BSD has its own getopt_long these days < 1258058962 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, what's the deal with MS being braindead about writing temporary files to C:\ < 1258058985 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the 8086 MS C .EXE tries doing it (forbidden under Vista default user account), MSVCRT tries doing it, etc. < 1258058988 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... annoying < 1258059034 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd think they'd test their own stuff, but obviously not as well as we'd like! < 1258059044 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(rant off) < 1258059341 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION reading '96 mailing list dump < 1258060196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, uh. not allowing writing temp files in c:\ seems pretty sane < 1258060211 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but they could virtualize it (but don't) < 1258060218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, why should they? < 1258060222 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then things would break silently < 1258060230 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because MS C and MSVCRT.DLL are the ones that expect to be able to do so !!!! < 1258060240 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why don't you ask Raymond Chen? That is his kind of question < 1258060242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it makes no fucking sense to allow that outside some sort of /tmp or ~/tmp < 1258060246 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't even workaround their own bugs! (argh) < 1258060246 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he might alreadhave covered it < 1258060248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not those obviously < 1258060255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but equivalents < 1258060262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, is it a bug? < 1258060277 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MSVCRT.DLL 's tmpfile() assumes C:\ is writable < 1258060280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : because MS C and MSVCRT.DLL are the ones that expect to be able to do so !!!! <-- MSVCRT what version? < 1258060290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :80? 90? < 1258060296 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think from MSVC 6, the one MinGW usees < 1258060298 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*uses < 1258060305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, well that's outdated as hell afaik < 1258060315 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, but MinGW still uses it, so blame them not me :-P < 1258060562 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1258060566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, well lets put it another way: I don't care a "shit" about windows breaking or not breaking. < 1258060574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually that is not true < 1258060588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I would prefer windows to fail, rather than work < 1258060613 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just sad when something works worse than before instead of better ... that's all < 1258060616 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are way better operating systems out there. and yes I did try windows7 < 1258060637 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are too many OSes, languages, cpus, etc. < 1258060644 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, sadly, this one isn't likely to affect the majority of windows users. Would have been a lot better if it did < 1258060645 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no one-size-fits-all < 1258060675 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, it wouldn't matter then either, Windows bugfixing isn't a democracy, meritocracy, or anything more than "random" < 1258060685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, mac OS X for those who just want stuff to work. Linux for those that want free software or being able to easily modify major parts of the system < 1258060689 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :freebsd too there < 1258060723 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least OS X has a decent shell < 1258060732 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1258060750 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bash, you mean? < 1258060830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, yes. cmd.exe is just unusable for anything serious. And windows "powershell" seems like a joke. < 1258060846 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure powershell can do more, but it seemed rather awkward to me. < 1258060862 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Total Command? (TCC) < 1258060876 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Powershell isn't even included in Vista by default (despite all the hype) < 1258060887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it in 7 iirc? < 1258060891 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS X used to include tcsh until 10.2 or so < 1258060896 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, in 7, from what I heard < 1258060904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I'm aware of os x used to use tcsh < 1258060906 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION didn't feel 7 was worth upgrading to < 1258060907 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of that* < 1258060931 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :definitely not for $119, ugh < 1258060938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard of TCC. Does it allow the wide flexibility of the shell on a *nix system? With the huge number of programs that you can use to do lots of things < 1258060965 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure exactly how to classify it as I've never used it, but it's by the guy who made 4DOS and 4NT < 1258060968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you just use that instead of the GUI? < 1258060974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on linux that would be feasible < 1258060981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I administrated lots of server over ssh < 1258060985 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with no X < 1258060998 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, you can't remove the GUI from Windows (that I know of, anyways) < 1258061011 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MinWin was just a tech demo, I think < 1258061025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, well, I didn't require that. I just required it to not require you to use the GUI ever < 1258061049 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TCC? well, it is a GUI app I think (with tabs, etc.), but console-ish < 1258061054 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure, never used it < 1258061055 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1258061057 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least TCC/LE is free < 1258061064 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-ware < 1258061073 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, so completely irrelevant then to my question? < 1258061111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my point is that with *nix you can use the GUI but don't *need* it. On windows so far it seems you will need it for some things < 1258061112 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, not Total Command but Take Command < 1258061128 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.jpsoft.com/tccledes.htm < 1258061143 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"formerly known as 4NT" ... okay < 1258061201 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, seems pretty crippled except in the high end (non-freeware) versions < 1258061208 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Well, Windows Server does at least offer a very barebones install. < 1258061210 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well, just saying, it's better than CMD at least < 1258061233 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It kinda *has* a GUI, but it only has cmd.exe running in it. < 1258061254 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :last updated two days ago, too < 1258061255 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pity they've not made it without the GUI, though. < 1258061259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so how usable is it to administrate it from there? < 1258061281 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Decently usable, actually -- the Microsoft server programs, at least, got CLIs. < 1258061301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, okay. But that is cmd.exe you are talking about < 1258061307 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perhaps a bit nicer if they had a better shell, though. < 1258061315 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(you could, say, use Mingw bash) < 1258061327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, how would you do stuff like loop over all files in the current directory, executing some command < 1258061333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like: < 1258061369 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most sanely? Probably a .bat file. < 1258061386 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this #erotic? < 1258061387 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(goto, I'd imagine, is hard to use on a prompt) < 1258061388 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :find . -name '*.html' -exec chmod o-w {} + < 1258061391 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for %a in (*.txt) do sed -i -e "s/foo/bar/" %a < 1258061394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, do that in one as short command :P < 1258061399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bat file is cheating < 1258061406 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a .BAT (else I'd have to use %%) < 1258061407 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has to be done on a single command line < 1258061411 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :straight from prompt < 1258061412 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: bash -c find . -name '*.html' -exec chmod o-w {} + < 1258061413 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1258061425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, sed isn't cmd.exe < 1258061426 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C:\TEMP> for %a in (*.txt) do sed -i -e "s/foo/bar/" %a < 1258061434 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so? find isn't Bash either < 1258061436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, I think you need some quotes there. not 100% sure < 1258061451 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Probably. < 1258061457 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: no < 1258061461 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, sorry, wrong term. "Not included by default installation of the OS" < 1258061461 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first thing I do on any Windows box is install bash. < 1258061463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which find is < 1258061471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on all *nix I have seen < 1258061476 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this whole time I was just waiting for somethig to happen :( < 1258061478 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fax: not unless this excites you < 1258061479 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :12481> #+?\# _.@ < 1258061481 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yeah, find is POSIX. < 1258061484 0 :fax!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit... < 1258061494 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1258061513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, so is sed btw < 1258061528 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :POSIX sed doesn't support "-i" anyways < 1258061546 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, true, don't use it a lot. easy to work around anyway. GNU sed has it < 1258061555 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since 4.x, yes < 1258061555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so does freebsd sed iirc < 1258061557 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1258061561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1258061563 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not NetBSD or OpenBSD < 1258061587 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or Minix (although they probably have GNU sed by now) < 1258061602 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`befunge 12481> #+?\# _.@ < 1258061606 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1258061608 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!befunge 12481> #+?\# _.@ < 1258061617 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, I can never remember < 1258061629 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The first one seemed correct, since it responded. < 1258061658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, indeed. still why not do: sed 's/..../..../' "$i" > "$i.tmp" && mv "$i.tmp" "$i"; done A bit more if you don't trust the directory to not contain such stuff (create a temp dir in /tmp and do it in there then) < 1258061669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, who uses minix? < 1258061685 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minix 3 is getting better all the time (or so I hear) ;-) < 1258061708 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Try "mktmp". < 1258061718 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. mktemp. < 1258061719 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, try Perl ;-) < 1258061725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, the "for %a in (*.txt) do" I didn't know about. when was it added to cmd.exe? I'm pretty sure command.com didn't have it at least. So it must have been in NT or later? < 1258061740 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :COMMAND.COM has had it for as long as I'm aware of, actually < 1258061742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well yes. that is what you would use for said temp dir in /tmp < 1258061747 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... File... < 1258061751 0 :nice!n=nice@p5B1370BE.dip.t-dialin.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258061752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, guess it was poorly documented < 1258061755 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, that would work too < 1258061763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, since I never seen any docs mentioning it < 1258061766 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, nope ... it's DOS history, actually, which you missed ;-) < 1258061782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, windows help center certainly didn't mention it on xp (which was last time I checked) < 1258061783 0 :nice!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :KingOfKarlsruhe < 1258061802 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"help for" will show you what you want < 1258061802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if the OS doesn't even come with proper documentation, how can anyone use it? < 1258061827 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ask Windows. :P < 1258061831 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, what will tell me there is a help or a for command there though. Sure that would be reasonable to guess. But far from everything is. < 1258061856 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ask that Paperclip ... or Rover ;-) < 1258061867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was office only. And shudder < 1258061875 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-D < 1258061918 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I'm on XP now, and the "Search" in Start Menu (optionally) has Rover ;-) < 1258061993 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :take that, Linux :-P < 1258062033 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, no seriously, even MS-DOS 6 had HELP.EXE, and you can usually get short help by doing " /?" < 1258062068 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DR-DOS had DOSBOOK.EXE (with a HELP.BAT alias), FreeDOS has HTMLhelp (HELP.EXE) < 1258062108 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's not like they're trying to leave users in the cold, it's just that docs are always secondary importance, plus it's too much work to document everything < 1258062198 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but there is no sed equivalent (that I know of) on Windows < 1258062206 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :find and findstr are Windows equivalents of grep, though < 1258062218 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :QBasic hasn't been included since Win95? (98?) < 1258062229 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :debug still exists though, so technically you could probably do anything ;-) < 1258062238 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :debug and edlin, heh < 1258062284 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but DOS apps!, so only 32-bits Windows supported, kthxbai) < 1258062298 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TCC/LE says it does regex < 1258062315 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :edlin is the sed equivalent on Windows :-P < 1258062331 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who needs things like long filenames < 1258062331 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :findstr supports regex, but find and edlin don't < 1258062338 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1258062346 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kids today :-D < 1258062367 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's also 16-bit and thus not provided on 64-bit Windowses (or maybe it is, but it won't run) < 1258062377 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, that's what I meant < 1258062392 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOSBox will run it though (although "why" is probably a better question) < 1258062393 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah right, you said so, I missed that. < 1258062558 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, Deewiant, what changed in latest CCBI? (still no latest build for Win32) < 1258062560 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1258062584 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1258062610 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's a Changelog. < 1258062634 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FILE's R now reflects on EOF. < 1258062638 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the only change. < 1258062646 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :FILE's R now reflects on EOF. < 1258062650 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, beat me to it ;-) < 1258062691 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The fact that the change wasn't that big explains why I haven't bothered to build it on Windows :-P < 1258062716 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lazy ;-) < 1258062736 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, have you heard of "Go" yet? < 1258062740 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(since you like D) < 1258062743 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, several times. < 1258062772 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Two D-related IRC channels, LLVM IRC channel, D newsgroups, couple of posts on reddit, post on /.) < 1258062786 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And now, #esoteric. :-P < 1258062845 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mixed reviews (although not too critical), but I suspect it will mature / morph a lot in the next year or two < 1258062860 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shrug. < 1258062880 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Was this the Google thing? < 1258062886 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1258062891 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comp.lang.forth of all places had a short thread about it. < 1258062940 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, because of the upcoming ChromeOS which may or may not utilize it < 1258062944 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Young people are excited because it's by Google, older people because it's by the C/Unix/Plan 9 folks. < 1258062948 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(relevant 'cause Forth can often serve as OS also) < 1258062963 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and *BSD people because it's BSD-licensed < 1258062983 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Given how much stuff is BSD-licensed, *BSD people must lead pretty exciting lives. < 1258062985 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, as opposed to proprietary? :-P Most languages are at least that free. < 1258062992 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for the language itself: meh. I'll see what happens. < 1258063002 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, not all languages are free < 1258063010 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't say that they were. < 1258063027 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, "most" implies that almost all are, which I doubt is the case < 1258063036 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although they probably should be) < 1258063058 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Yes, well, the comp.lang.forth thread has apparently now degenerated into a "discussion" whether Chrome OS is "an evil scheme to take control of everybody's computer?" (direct quote). < 1258063059 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"most" implies that more than half are, which probably is the case, excepting all kinds of used-in-only-one-project type DSLs. < 1258063062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my guess is that the vast majority of languages are proprietary, but none of the proprietary ones are massively popular < 1258063069 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: :-D < 1258063080 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems that half of companies have a proprietary language or two of their own < 1258063099 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, and I'd exclude those if they're only for their internal use. < 1258063108 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are you really surprised? Earth has like 6000 living human languages :-/ < 1258063151 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who's surprised by what? < 1258063174 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nobody, just saying it's obvious that there are way too many languages out there < 1258063297 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`befunge 01g0g,01g1+:83*-!#@_01p < 1258063298 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1258063301 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah < 1258063306 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know I'm doing it wrong < 1258063366 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, are you trying to do? < 1258063367 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(quoting, lol): "STYLE GUIDELINES. Every Befunge programmer has their < 1258063368 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :own style. As a Befunge programmer your style should < 1258063370 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :be unique, ugly, and incomprehensible to others." < 1258063371 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/,// < 1258063381 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :run a program that actual has output! < 1258063384 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow it's not working < 1258063400 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`befunge 55+"ihaO",,,,,@ < 1258063401 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1258063409 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm < 1258063419 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I managed to typo, even. < 1258063421 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird knows how, but he's not here and I can't remember < 1258063429 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`befunge 55*.@ < 1258063430 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1258063436 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run befunge 55*.@ < 1258063437 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1258063443 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`help < 1258063443 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`", or "`run " for full shell commands. "`fetch " downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert " can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ < 1258063454 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since people were talking about Google Go the other day, here is my brief opinion from poking arounda t it a bit: Probably the worst language design in at least a decade. Easily the worst toolchain design in the entire history of toolchains. If I never touch this language again, it will be too soon. < 1258063454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run which befunge < 1258063455 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1258063458 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`befunge 55*.@ > /dev/null < 1258063458 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1258063461 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's your problem < 1258063466 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls /usr/bin < 1258063467 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X11 \ [ \ a2p \ addpart \ addr2line \ apropos \ apt-cache \ apt-cdrom \ apt-config \ apt-extracttemplates \ apt-ftparchive \ apt-get \ apt-key \ apt-mark \ apt-sortpkgs \ aptitude \ aptitude-create-state-bundle \ aptitude-run-state-bundle \ ar \ arch \ as \ awk \ base64 \ basename \ bashbug \ bdftopcf \ bdftops \ bdftruncate < 1258063473 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls /usr/bin/b* < 1258063474 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/base64 \ /usr/bin/basename \ /usr/bin/bashbug \ /usr/bin/bdftopcf \ /usr/bin/bdftops \ /usr/bin/bdftruncate \ /usr/bin/bsd-write < 1258063479 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`bef 55*.@ > /dev/null < 1258063479 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1258063480 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see, no befunge installed < 1258063485 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls /usr/bin/c* < 1258063486 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/bin/c++ \ /usr/bin/c++filt \ /usr/bin/c2ph \ /usr/bin/c89 \ /usr/bin/c89-gcc \ /usr/bin/c99 \ /usr/bin/c99-gcc \ /usr/bin/c_rehash \ /usr/bin/cal \ /usr/bin/calendar \ /usr/bin/captoinfo \ /usr/bin/catchsegv \ /usr/bin/catman \ /usr/bin/cc \ /usr/bin/chage \ /usr/bin/chattr \ /usr/bin/chcon \ /usr/bin/chfn \ /usr/bin/chkdupexe < 1258063486 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run which bef < 1258063487 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1258063488 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help < 1258063493 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, EgoBot isn't here. < 1258063496 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That ain't right. < 1258063512 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR, worst this decade???? < 1258063520 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that HackEgo has neither cfunge nor ccbi, I'm not sure why you're expecting befunge commands to work < 1258063523 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: In terms of "real" languages. It's completely horrible. < 1258063529 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to what? < 1258063532 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java? C#? < 1258063535 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(there might be another befunge interp on there, but the c* command checks the most two common) < 1258063538 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!befunge 55+"iahO",,,,,@ < 1258063549 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That'd require EgoBot, who is absent. < 1258063549 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: EgoBot isn't here < 1258063552 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Literally every language created for serious use. < 1258063553 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run which fbbi < 1258063555 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1258063561 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: fbbi? < 1258063566 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: There is no language I can compare it against without saying "Wow, Go is a steaming pile of shit compared to that language." < 1258063569 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls /usr/local/bin < 1258063570 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1258063570 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Flaming Bovine Befunge-98 Interpreter < 1258063575 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, the original < 1258063586 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR, main reasons? < 1258063602 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: COBOL? < 1258063603 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some of its advertised features are comparable to INTERCAL's < 1258063608 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: no, Issue 9 < 1258063609 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`run ls /usr/bin < 1258063610 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X11 \ [ \ a2p \ addpart \ addr2line \ apropos \ apt-cache \ apt-cdrom \ apt-config \ apt-extracttemplates \ apt-ftparchive \ apt-get \ apt-key \ apt-mark \ apt-sortpkgs \ aptitude \ aptitude-create-state-bundle \ aptitude-run-state-bundle \ ar \ arch \ as \ awk \ base64 \ basename \ bashbug \ bdftopcf \ bdftops \ bdftruncate < 1258063612 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: COBOL is not in the last decade ;) < 1258063622 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: That's an interesting statement < 1258063635 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: reddit have decided to call the language Issue 9 rather than Go < 1258063647 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know; I was talking about your previous statement < 1258063648 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's because somebody already has "Go!" as a langauge < 1258063652 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Its type system is insane, its toolchain is horrible, its method of "encapsulation" is capitalization, it has no consistent interoperability story, lesse... < 1258063655 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regarding INTERCAL. < 1258063660 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is literally not a single redeeming feature. < 1258063664 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: things like light-weight coroutines < 1258063665 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and duck typing < 1258063671 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's so bad about the toolchain? < 1258063674 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sheesh, this shell server is lagging. < 1258063679 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: THE BINARIES ARE NAMED PER FUCKING ARCHITECTURE < 1258063685 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6g? 8g? WTF?! < 1258063685 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: Plan 9 style, I hear. < 1258063689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(people nowadays seem not to keep track of INTERCAL development) < 1258063692 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, plan 9 is fucking stupid that way. < 1258063695 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR, it's very fast, it's supposed to be good for concurrency < 1258063698 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's two pros, no? < 1258063705 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have yet to see any benchmarks. < 1258063706 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fast is not a pro unless we're compiling in 1965. < 1258063712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, ick is pretty fast at compiling too < 1258063717 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the compiled code isn't fast, the compiler is fast. < 1258063720 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yeah, fast compiling is pretty much a no-brainer these days. < 1258063722 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, it then gets slowed down as you have to compile the C as well < 1258063729 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh ... I sure wish GCC was faster < 1258063732 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots faster < 1258063733 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only C++ is too slow for comfort. < 1258063741 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It has fork-join-ish concurrency, which makes it "good" in a "hey if we restrict you to a ridiculous degree you won't make mistakes" sense. < 1258063752 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And CCBI2, but that's due to compiler bugs.) < 1258063807 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've never heard anyone say, "Nah, I don't need faster compiles" < 1258063818 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GregorR: see INTERCAL's concurrency model, it's richer than pretty much all common languages up to about the Haskell level < 1258063819 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, I don't need faster compiles < 1258063830 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You want a .wav of that, too? :-P < 1258063847 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you must not compile a lot of stuff < 1258063853 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or else extremely patient < 1258063853 0 :GregorR!unknown@unknown.invalid TOPIC #esoteric :Go is a no-go | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D < 1258063874 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I prefer Haskell's concurrency model over most other things. < 1258063875 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION jokingly suggested to rename it "!Go" (not Go) or "Go2" (goto) ;-) < 1258063891 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Shared state"? What does that even mean when you don't have state? :P < 1258063912 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What kind of stuff do you compile that makes you feel such a need for speed? < 1258063932 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any non-trivial stuff with latest GCC < 1258063953 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I compile LLVM with latest GCC, I don't really mind how long that takes. < 1258063959 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not for nothing that LLVM + CLang are gaining popularity < 1258063998 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LLVM's codegen bit isn't very fast, GCC is often faster :-P < 1258064000 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what machine do you use? < 1258064009 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux niðavellir 2.6.32-rc3-deewiant #1 SMP PREEMPT Fri Oct 9 17:07:44 EEST 2009 x86_64 Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Quad CPU Q9550 @ 2.83GHz GenuineIntel GNU/Linux < 1258064017 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, obviously GCC is more mature (but slow ... oh so slowwwwwwww) < 1258064034 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.6.32-rc3 ... wow, slow adopter, eh? ;-) < 1258064038 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Clang is a faster frontend, but LLVM's backend is typically slower in my experience. < 1258064061 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Core 2 Quad x86-64, should've known :-P ;-0 < 1258064063 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1258064099 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure if you have one of the fastest machines on the market it's "good enough", but be realistic, it could be loads better < 1258064124 0 :KingOfKarlsruhe!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258064129 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, it probably could be < 1258064134 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just don't feel the need for it. :-P < 1258064136 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not probably, definitely! < 1258064146 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... because you have a damn fast machine, one of the fastest out there now < 1258064159 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know about definitely since I haven't looked at GCC's code. < 1258064175 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And yes, that's likely a reason I don't feel the need. :-P < 1258064183 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like Bill Gates saying, "I think I'll give away a billion", it's because he's rich, not because 1 bil ain't worth nothing!! < 1258064186 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't look at GCC's code < 1258064189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you may end up wishing you hadn't < 1258064192 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't intend to. < 1258064196 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thar be dragons < 1258064209 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't be worse than Befunge98, though ;-) < 1258064216 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is < 1258064230 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was joking < 1258064231 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, gcc's .md files are actually written in two different languages < 1258064237 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you have to write them as polyglots < 1258064258 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've briefly looked at GCC, I'm not saying it's not complex ... just that I'm sure it could be better < 1258064273 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just one language that coincidentally happens to be the intersection of two other languages < 1258064332 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an interesting viewpoint < 1258064371 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I thought that polyglots were just a game < 1258064400 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Speaking of GCC, how goes gccbf? < 1258064409 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: GCC's code is a crime. < 1258064411 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: it doesn't, I'm busy with loads of other things < 1258064418 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Alas. < 1258064429 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, it's now complete enough that it feels like a very buggy program, rather than an incomplete one < 1258064432 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And its build system should be put out of its misery. < 1258064438 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of code is horrible, it's rewriting everything that is hard < 1258064522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: gcc's build system actually inspired ick's < 1258064537 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the sense of, I looked at gcc's build system and resolved to do something different < 1258064546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :preferably as different as possible, whilst still using autoconf < 1258064561 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what is this ick you speak of? updated Intercal-to-C proggie? < 1258064571 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Ah. < 1258064583 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: the C-INTERCAL compiler < 1258064587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ick(10 < 1258064589 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :* ick(1) < 1258064628 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ick15d12.zip, ick-c024.tgz, ick-c025.tgz (all I have on this cpu, and I never really bothered learning it) < 1258064683 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.25 is rather old < 1258064701 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, yes, obviously, I'm implying that you should tell me what's new, where to get it, etc. ;-) < 1258064704 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.-2.0.29 is available at http://overload.intercal.org.uk/ < 1258064708 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION likes Go's ability to retrofit interfaces onto classes < 1258064713 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compile-tim duck typing! < 1258064715 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a beta, but should work fine on Linux and UNIX systems < 1258064723 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the reason it's beta is that it hasn't been tested on other architectures yet) < 1258064727 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has no parameterised types < 1258064730 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders about DJGPP ... < 1258064730 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like WTF < 1258064741 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go or Intercal? ;-) < 1258064743 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :welcome to the 80s < 1258064744 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: older versions were actually tested on DJGPP < 1258064764 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :intercal has the excuse that it is actually from the 70s < 1258064776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: download 0.28 if you're on DJGPP, the DOS build is supported there < 1258064781 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, wasn't there a Befunge interpreter written in Intercal? < 1258064784 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: yes < 1258064789 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: what was that ping for? < 1258064793 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's in the distribution, I forget which version it was added in though < 1258064804 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: seemed you were still on about Go (twenty minutes late) ;-) < 1258064812 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1258064821 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, added in 0.28, with a bug fixed on 0.29 < 1258064823 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*in < 1258064827 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on several channels at once < 1258064832 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why so many releases on April Fools? coincidence? joke? :-) < 1258064836 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: deliberate < 1258064842 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a classic day for releasing INTERCAL versions < 1258064843 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course < 1258064894 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bugfix in 0.29 ("0.-2.0.29") doesn't help me much < 1258064904 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you want me to try 0.29 in DJGPP also < 1258064929 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why such huge size increases? hmmm ... < 1258065002 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's the diff b/w C-INTERCAL and CLC-... oh well < 1258065048 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what, what the ... pax + gz ??? < 1258065069 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's INTERCAL, it can't be too easy. < 1258065084 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL are entirely different compilers < 1258065096 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously but how / why? < 1258065099 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, .pax.gz is the POSIX-mandated format for tarballs < 1258065106 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*sigh* < 1258065107 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: completely different codebases and feature sets, different maintainers < 1258065113 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: you'll find tar decompresses it just fine < 1258065118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's backwards-compatible < 1258065134 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Only GNU tar, though, or? < 1258065136 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've heard of pax, don't get me wrong, just ... too obscure IMHO < 1258065141 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember if we checked that. < 1258065149 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: any POSIX-compatible tar < 1258065157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although the ones that don't know the format will create junk dotfiles < 1258065160 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is starting to hate POSIX ... < 1258065175 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : anyways, no seriously, even MS-DOS 6 had HELP.EXE, and you can usually get short help by doing " /?" <-- yeah but how do you find out what built in control structures to look for? I would do man bash. but well yeah what is the equivalent of that... < 1258065200 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: help.exe had a command list if you started it with no arguments < 1258065202 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mean for the shell? < 1258065206 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1258065216 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, help cmd, in more recent versions < 1258065229 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or FreeCOM (from FreeDOS) prints a nice word list if you type "?" by itself < 1258065232 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Yeah, but I'm wondering if anything other than GNU is actually POSIX-compatible in that respect. :-P < 1258065242 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: it works in practice < 1258065264 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, the primary goal of INTERCAL is to act differently from everything else < 1258065272 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if everything else packages incorrectly, INTERCAL should package correctly < 1258065291 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then use .zip.7z or something silly like that (or .lbr + .sq, heh) < 1258065346 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (quoting, lol): "STYLE GUIDELINES. Every Befunge programmer has their <-- where from is that? < 1258065346 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't correct, that's just being silly for the sake of it < 1258065360 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, INTERCAL does a lot of silly for the sake of it, but silly for a good reason is even better < 1258065363 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, from that mailing list log you sent me < 1258065415 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, then you should write a PAX unpacker in B98 or Intercal, stat! ;-) < 1258065423 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: just use tar, it unpacks pax just fine < 1258065429 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lazy ;-) < 1258065451 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you need quite a bit of knowledge about your specific OS to write a pax unpacker, anyway < 1258065465 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I /am/ interested to know if the 0.29 beta runs unmodified on DJGPP < 1258065469 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I haven't tested that at all < 1258065478 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's marked as a beta precisely because of the lack of testing < 1258065507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : you have to write them as polyglots <-- huh? < 1258065517 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a gcc .md file is compiled into two different object files < 1258065522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :each of which interprets the .md file a different way < 1258065571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh about gcc, I was surprised yesterday when gcc optimised a printf() into a puts() < 1258065577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I hadn't expected at all < 1258065597 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION recalls Wumpus in Bef93. Spectacular. < 1258065605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what does the md file do? < 1258065615 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.md = machine description ?? < 1258065618 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's one of the major files that describes a target (such as x86 or ARM) < 1258065621 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spent hours tracing the code path, and it only just fits in the grid < 1258065647 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it basically specifies a) how to translate RTL into asm, and b) what sort of RTL is best to generate to produce decent code on that platform < 1258065662 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it compiles into a GIMPLE->RTL translator and an RTL->asm translator < 1258065663 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but some platforms are better covered than others < 1258065676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why < 1258065686 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is GIMPLE the 4.x one or the 3.x (treelang??) ? < 1258065695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: neither, it's an internal representation < 1258065707 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's used between the frontend and backend < 1258065715 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because optimisations take place on the RTL < 1258065734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the polyglot basically specifies the GIMPLE, RTL /and/ asm versions of bits of code < 1258065745 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you have to do a lot of messing about to get it to work < 1258065759 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no worse than AutoConf, heh ;-) < 1258065793 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: autoconf can and does work fine in C-INTERCAL 0.29 < 1258065802 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I spent weeks learning how it actually worked, rather than how everyone uses it < 1258065807 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"in" or "used by"? < 1258065807 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :together with the rest of autotools < 1258065813 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, used to build it < 1258065816 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1258065822 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good, otherwise I'd have a heart attack < 1258065833 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as a result, C-INTERCAL 0.29 has a build system that is both a) good, and b) based on autoconf < 1258065838 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a combination which most people thought impossible < 1258065838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why does it have to be one file. Couldn't it be two? < 1258065852 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: there'd be quite a bit of duplication if there were two; I suppose that was the reasoning < 1258065879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "in" or "used by"? <-- nice idea there. < 1258065889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would fit well into intercal somehow I feel < 1258065902 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: write an m4 fingerprint for cfunge < 1258065913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about autoconf configuring itself? Surely that can't be too bad < 1258065929 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it mostly doesn't, autoconf is a script not a binary < 1258065931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, a what? < 1258065937 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1258065938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hah < 1258065946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I wouldn't know where to start with m4 < 1258065960 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: one of the new features in 0.29 is the ability to compile Funge-98 and INTERCAL together < 1258065961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I avoid autoconf, I know it a bit, but I don't know any "raw" m4 < 1258065971 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :raw m4's actually quite a nice language < 1258065979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, automake then? Or something < 1258065979 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has an eso feel to it, too < 1258065984 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: automake's Perl < 1258065985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently < 1258065987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so does malbolge < 1258065988 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1258065992 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, written in Perl < 1258065999 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1258066004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you don't write bits of Perl to expand it, you just use more m4 < 1258066030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbiab.... < 1258066036 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Automake's Perl and m4. < 1258066051 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it's automake (perl) plus a library for autoconf (m4) < 1258066073 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: how's your C-INTERCAL build going? < 1258066093 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm trying to be a good boy and check the "README" first (instead of asking blindly, "just configure and make??" < 1258066095 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :) < 1258066103 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1258066107 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the README used to be essential reading < 1258066112 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION didn't want to hear, "Read the README, n00b!" < 1258066114 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(what version are you trying, btw?) < 1258066119 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258066120 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.29 < 1258066126 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said 0.28 works, so ... < 1258066133 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fair enough < 1258066141 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0.28 works, 0.29 is untested (on DJGPP) < 1258066167 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, you can configure out-of-tree, but your make must support VPATH (BTW) < 1258066195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not completely certain that's needed, given the typical automake insanity, but it probably is < 1258066209 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :obviously haven't updated README, it says DJGPP works fine < 1258066224 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, good catch < 1258066228 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I wrote what was intended to happen < 1258066231 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than what actually does < 1258066274 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, needs VPATH to build out of tree < 1258066279 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most makes have it nowadays, though, IIRC < 1258066289 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the bit about cfunge is obviously moot to DOS (no mmap) < 1258066300 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: "most" means more than just GNU and *BSD, I hope < 1258066301 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, it works fine without though < 1258066326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can still build in-tree even if your make's lacking out-of-tree features < 1258066382 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258066412 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autoconf 2.61 (should work okay, 2.63 has typo, 2.64 exposed a now-fixed DJGPP Bash bug) < 1258066482 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258066483 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, it may be an artifact of DJGPP (or Windows in general, e.g. Cygwin) but Autoconf is *slow* < 1258066486 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258066499 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even 2.64 ("30% faster") isn't nearly fast enough for comfort < 1258066507 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: the reason it's slow is that it has to invoke the compiler and linker tens of times < 1258066509 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" ... faster on Cygwin" < 1258066510 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on lots of trivial programs < 1258066517 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, it's actually gcc that's being slow, rather than autoconf < 1258066524 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: Windows. < 1258066529 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it checks too much cruft < 1258066536 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not gcc, it's Windows's process invocation. < 1258066541 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I know I know, tweak my config.site, bah) < 1258066548 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: on some systems, those crufts may have unexpected values! < 1258066566 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've clocked ./configure --help taking longer on Windows than the whole ./configure on Linux, on the same machine. < 1258066577 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: wow < 1258066579 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I mean, some of the things it checks for are bogus, i.e. not required for the program (you could also blame the package maintainer I guess, but ...) < 1258066579 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was there a cache? < 1258066587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: I've tried to be careful wrt that < 1258066590 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Windows process invocation is *very very slow*. < 1258066594 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's done already < 1258066602 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :./configure uses some kind of cache always, no? < 1258066603 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if the configure went fine, try a make < 1258066604 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :luckily not as painful as other packages I've built before (e.g. ZILE) < 1258066605 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But it really doesn't matter < 1258066613 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-C is optional < 1258066617 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I mean, a pre-existing cache < 1258066623 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: Not really; caching is a bit broken. < 1258066624 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: No in both cases. < 1258066625 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't use -C, it caches just for one run then deletes the cache again < 1258066640 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: configure didn't bomb out, so here goes nothing ... "make" < 1258066678 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should've done --disable-dependency-tracking but didn't want to push too hard ... < 1258066703 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :libidiot.a, a lib after my own heart! < 1258066704 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The dependency tracking bit only matters for rebuilds. < 1258066709 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: In any case, ./configure on Windows is, in my experience, slower than it would be for me to type the values in manually. < 1258066713 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I know, and slows everything down too < 1258066727 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autoconf-generated configures, that is. < 1258066737 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: completed without error, now what? test some stuff in pit? < 1258066742 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: if you like < 1258066747 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or install if you prefer < 1258066761 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is convickt? < 1258066765 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and oil? < 1258066766 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: a character set converter < 1258066784 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :say, if you get an INTERCAL program in EBCDIC, you can convert it to ASCII to run it with C-INTERCAL < 1258066792 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and OIL is a domain-specific language for writing optimiser idioms in < 1258066796 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, like that'll happen ;-) < 1258066809 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the optimiser got better really quickly after I wrote OIL < 1258066813 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it became so much easier to change < 1258066858 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Your .pax files really truly should be .tar; pax creates archives in USTAR format, just like GNU Tar and BSD Tar... < 1258066879 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: no, USTAR and .pax are slightly different IIRC < 1258066883 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1258066887 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : yes, you can configure out-of-tree, but your make must support VPATH (BTW) <-- doesn't all? < 1258066900 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently not < 1258066912 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as they always warn about that < 1258066929 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ick +help doesn't work (should it?) < 1258066933 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :man 5 tar says that pax follows the ustar format, but contains more data < 1258066939 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: no, +help is for programs you created < 1258066942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try ick -@ < 1258066958 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in, ick supports -@, programs you create using ick support +help) < 1258066980 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Sure enough -- pax adds an extended header. < 1258067015 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you look at a pax archive using a non-pax untar tool, such as Emacs, you see extra dotfiles in the archive < 1258067063 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It appears that pax archives are as capable as GNU tar, but a bit different. < 1258067085 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU tar isn't POSIX-compatible < 1258067096 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas pax is compatible with old tars, and with GNU tar as well < 1258067114 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, GNU tar is USTAR with additional features that aren't all that POSIX-compliant. < 1258067121 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(IIRC) < 1258067130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I think pax is compatible even with ancestral tar < 1258067138 0 :Gracenotes!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1258067144 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which just ignores all the data in there it doesn't understand, as it's placed into reserved fields and-or dotfiles < 1258067146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : yes, I know, and slows everything down too <-- never noticed that. Half a second difference on a project taking 3-4 minutes to build. But that is within the error margin I think. Since the build time varied with like 5 seconds anwyway < 1258067152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway* < 1258067175 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how much dependency tracking slows it down depends on the compiler < 1258067176 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try on a non-Core2 billion GB machine ;-) < 1258067177 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: According to this, it isn't required to be: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/utilities/pax.html < 1258067189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for compilers that can't produce dependency info as a side-effect, it slows it down by a factor of 2 < 1258067199 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it doesn't work ... or at least "ick -g hail_mary.3i" isn't doing anything (nor "-c" etc.) < 1258067217 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: not even producing hail_mary.c or hail_mary? < 1258067221 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try ick -y hail_mary.3i < 1258067228 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should bring up a debug prompt < 1258067241 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, keeps saying "NO SKELETON IN MY CLOSET" < 1258067255 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gotta love INTERCAL error messages <3 < 1258067255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : for compilers that can't produce dependency info as a side-effect, it slows it down by a factor of 2 <-- gcc can do that though < 1258067268 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: oh, make sure syslib.3i is in the right place < 1258067278 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you haven't installed, try copying it into the current directory so it can find it < 1258067288 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ick-wrap.c may need to be copied there too) < 1258067348 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bunch of compilers errors when using "-g" < 1258067395 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, that's more interesting < 1258067397 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could you paste them? < 1258067408 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hold on, probably 'cause I'm trying to run inside /pit < 1258067480 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that shouldn't cause the errors... < 1258067519 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah, too many files < 1258067527 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what headers and libs need to be where :-/ < 1258067539 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make install should put them all into the right places for you < 1258067550 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't mind installing < 1258067560 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doubt it, I've tried that before on other packages, and it didn't work correctly < 1258067563 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise, it'll look in the current directory, and a couple of binary-relative places < 1258067571 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but binary-relative is quite possibly broken on DOS < 1258067576 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to having a different path separator < 1258067675 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(trying on a "clean" install of DJGPP) < 1258067706 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no errors! (-g) < 1258067715 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-142-102.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1258067735 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :11/12/2009 05:15 PM 216,066 hail_mary.exe < 1258067750 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, it failed on an unclean install, but worked on a clean one? < 1258067753 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder what the issue was < 1258067754 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(okay, very very boring example, heh, but it seems to work) < 1258067761 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no no no < 1258067784 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean I "installed" DJGPP in a separate place (so as not to pollute my main install) and did "make install" there, and it installed ICK correctly where it works < 1258067793 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258067806 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1000000 might take a while (snore) < 1258067824 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't even print the number it's on *sniff* < 1258067866 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can already guess a __dpmi_yield() call would be nice ;-) < 1258067881 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, it finished < 1258067891 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does __dpmi_yield do? < 1258067906 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :remember, DOS is single-process, so on pure DOS you couldn't yield execution at all, sensibly < 1258067909 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :release the time slice to OS < 1258067914 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOS != DPMI < 1258067933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, hit ctrl-c instead? < 1258067944 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1258067948 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS/2, Novell / DR-DOS 7, Win 3.x on up all support it (int 2fh, 168fh) ... technically DPMI 1.0 but all of those are 0.9 only, so ... < 1258067961 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: you can run DPMI on pure-DOS, though; does it just ignore the call when you do that? < 1258067979 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wouldn't mind putting a __dmpi_yield in behind a #ifdef __DJGPP__ barrier or whatever < 1258067989 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on DR-DOS 7.03? only if not multitasking (which needs its own DPMI server) < 1258068007 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah, I'm pretty sure all other DOS-only DPMI servers ignore it < 1258068014 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(would have to check to be sure, though) < 1258068056 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dpmi.h -> __dpmi_yield() < 1258068085 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. Bash uses this to not hog cpu time completely < 1258068129 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yes, under FreeDOS it's moot (dunno about DOSEMU though, would be vaguely interested to find out) < 1258068137 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOSEMU has its own DPMI also < 1258068165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : e.g. Bash uses this to not hog cpu time completely <-- what the hell are you on about. If running under windows, wouldn't it do it's own scheduling? < 1258068166 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but DOSBox has no built-in DPMI server, so you have to use whatever would be used in real DOS < 1258068183 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, NTVDM will gladly hog up a lot of your processor < 1258068190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DJGPP comes with a DPMI server, IIRC < 1258068195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, of half you mean. Dual core :P < 1258068204 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure, pre-emptive multitasking is still in control, but it's fairly lenient in letting you hog almost everything else if you wish < 1258068226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, that's strange. I'm pretty sure the linux one isn't < 1258068226 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: DJGPP comes with CWSDPMI, which ignores the __dpmi_yield function. < 1258068241 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what I was thinking of < 1258068247 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DJGPP is not designed only for CWSDPMI, though, but for any compliant DPMI 0.9 server < 1258068264 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CWSDPMI is just for those who don't have any other < 1258068269 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The 0x2f interrupt handler only handles function 1686h, "Get CPU Mode". < 1258068271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why not port ick to classic mac os? < 1258068275 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or has that already been done? < 1258068284 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: port? in theory it should run unmodified on anything without porting < 1258068286 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ofc, that's just theory < 1258068297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you need to do something about the console < 1258068301 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, emulate one yourself < 1258068301 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if classic mac is around, it would be nice if someone would try it and let me know where it fails < 1258068319 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, if it doesn't have any sh-equivalent, then a new build system would be needed < 1258068320 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I have one emulator with MPW I could try tomorrow. Runs OS 9/PPC. < 1258068348 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could probably hack your own config.h if needed < 1258068350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed it doesn't. Well MPW has it's own weird shell-like thingy. You select some text press a key combo to execute it. < 1258068362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the make isn't the usual syntax < 1258068363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at all < 1258068366 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it doesn't do sh commands < 1258068377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MPW make just outputs a series of commands you can run < 1258068390 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :simply tracking which commands make calls and putting them into a text file would be enough to create a relatively universal build system < 1258068398 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if, as you say, config.h was set correctly < 1258068404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the C compiler is called MrC iirc < 1258068409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cc won't work < 1258068419 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :symlinks can fake that easily enough < 1258068428 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on the system you use to make the makescript < 1258068435 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, currently Task Manager says anywhere from "89%" used by hail_mary.exe to "95%" or "97%" or "99%" etc. (it varies) < 1258068438 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, still. It can't do STDOUT easily. As it will go into the void < 1258068447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you need to make your own window to draw it in < 1258068450 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could freopen it to a file < 1258068452 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, done again, now to see how many lines in that file I redirected ;-) < 1258068454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, or that < 1258068472 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, stuff like that has been done before, e.g. so-called Win16 extender (OpenWatcom) < 1258068481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, path separator on mac is : < 1258068484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not / or \ < 1258068496 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or RSX's shell (rshell or whatever it was called) < 1258068500 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't a problem if everything's in the same directory < 1258068529 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yup, million lines, so it worked! < 1258068548 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oy, 11 MB file ;-) < 1258068570 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compresses to 21k .ZIP (unsurprisingly) < 1258068581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and the MrC command has a completely weird syntax iirc. Will take a look at this tomorrow. Should be fun. I'm not even sure there is a full standard library there. Or if there is, how you link to it < 1258068582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1258068591 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: is it C89-compliant? < 1258068597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, *maaaaybe* < 1258068605 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :K&R, probably < 1258068618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Programmer%27s_Workshop < 1258068629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, it has some limited C++ support iirc. Oh and Pascal < 1258068659 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha! Interfunge prints output in Roman numerals ... that I didn't expect (and I knew Intercal loved 'em!) < 1258068661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: apparently it supports stdout if you redirected it < 1258068668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258068691 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is there no GCC port for Macs? < 1258068700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, for classic ones? I'd doubt it < 1258068709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or discontinued if so < 1258068710 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apparently libiberty specifically had support for MPW < 1258068711 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't GCC start out on 68000? also, Atari has one < 1258068712 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so there was for a while < 1258068717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh < 1258068736 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are people who have GCC 3.x running for Atari cpus, I think < 1258068761 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they ported Quake to some Atari machine (Falcon 68060?) < 1258068807 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and Quake was originally cross-compiled from Alphas?? for DOS / DJGPP target, C + some FPU-heavy ASM) < 1258068840 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I really need to go home < 1258068843 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258068863 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, ais523: thanks (post mortem) :-) < 1258068910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1258069025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, btw if you get the cfunge-intercal thing (IFFI) to work on that I will be extremely impressed. Considering that cfunge is a pain to get working even on cygwin (and even then some parts don't work) < 1258069050 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I doubt it since you said it needed mmap, and that's unsupported in DJGPP < 1258069064 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(without DPMI 1.0 fiddling, which I'm not intimately familiar with) < 1258069071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, right. You could rewrite file loading code I guess. < 1258069074 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot < 1258069091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that won't go upstream though) < 1258069119 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, FBBI compiles in DJGPP < 1258069134 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :CCBI might work under HX (haven't tried) < 1258069138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :HX? < 1258069147 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.japheth.de/HX.html < 1258069153 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not everything is supported (obviously) < 1258069157 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, cfunge is C99 + quite a lot POSIX < 1258069164 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1258069175 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DJGPP has GCC 4.4.1 and supports a fair subset of POSIX < 1258069182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :4.4? not bad < 1258069192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, wait, is it 32-bit? < 1258069198 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1258069202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah good < 1258069209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge wouldn't be happy with 640k < 1258069210 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GCC doesn't officially support anything less on x86 < 1258069229 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quake needed 8 MB of RAM (1996), and it used DJGPP < 1258069244 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, GCC itself would never ever fit in 640k < 1258069266 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay, I take it back ... maybe with HEAVY swapping (CWSDPMI) < 1258069278 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DJ did start it in 1989 on his 386 w/ 2 MB of extended RAM < 1258069285 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course GCC was loads simpler then < 1258069309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, iirc with loading *.so, setting up memory pools (large for performance reasons) and so on cfunge needs something like 15 MB virtual address space for the ulimit on my x86_64 system < 1258069316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was it more? I forgot < 1258069336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, DJ? < 1258069350 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DJ = founder of DJGPP (DJ's GNU Programming Platform) < 1258069356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258069385 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and BTW, memory limits are imposed by DPMI host, not DJGPP (although I think 2 GB is somehow hardcoded somewhat in libc but can be worked around ... never completed because nobody had interest, according to CWS) < 1258069401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not surprised < 1258069411 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can't build GCC anymore in less than 128 MB or such < 1258069423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, not surprised either < 1258069426 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :used to be where 16 MB was enough (2.x) < 1258069447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, anyway, good luck getting cmake working in there (alas, not needed for IFFI, IFFI builds it differently) < 1258069457 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, DJ said (1996) he could build GCC in thirty minutes on his 486 DX/100 < 1258069476 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one guy wanted to port Cmake but stopped due to Bash bug < 1258069494 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same bug cropped up when Autoconf released 2.64 (nobody tested, gah), now fixed ... but a bit too late (five years) < 1258069543 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't help that MS never fixed NT bugs in their DPMI server, etc. < 1258069559 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nor that hardware acceleration almost never worked in DOS (does 3dfx count? barely ...), which distracted many a developer < 1258069571 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. Quake / DOS never ran in NT (only 9x) < 1258069575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, why does anyone care < 1258069582 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dosbox, sure < 1258069588 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, sorry, thought you might wanna know for trivia ;-) < 1258069596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but DJGPP these days? < 1258069604 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258069607 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* why not, if it works? < 1258069625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, you could use that to defend cobol too < 1258069634 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... or Befunge98 ;-) < 1258069646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, or anything < 1258069647 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*zing* < 1258069652 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol ;-) < 1258069655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was my point < 1258069663 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that that reason makes no sense < 1258069676 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the point is ... DJGPP works well for what it does, so why not use it? < 1258069690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, also, tell me when you rewrote fungot in befunge93 < 1258069690 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: and it was to late yeah it is it you don't have anything and was being assesed on my face he.d be in movies like this < 1258069700 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1258069702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style < 1258069702 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld europarl ff7 fisher ic irc jargon lovecraft nethack pa speeches ss wp youtube* < 1258069711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^style nethack < 1258069711 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Selected style: nethack (NetHack 3.4.3 data.base, rumors.tru, rumors.fal) < 1258069717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, . < 1258069717 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: eating a yeti. ceram) < 1258069724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, not a good idea... < 1258069729 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup for the win!! < 1258069730 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: c*ckatrice: once you know what that is?) < 1258069737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, no way < 1258069742 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION throws a cockatrice at fungot < 1258069742 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: they say that blue stones are radioactive, beware. " the eyes!" " how the indian deity quetzalcoatl came from the fiends, that david hasted, and he had no wallet and no pockets, so that they might challenge his own sword, lion's skin, and damage, both spell and physical, is about the time that paris was full of carlists who had brought. for a price list. < 1258069754 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION while wearing gloves, of course < 1258069762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, too late to mention that now < 1258069776 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to him, maybe ;-) < 1258069781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, to you < 1258069789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, good thing you are alive < 1258069789 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: zruty: the name _sasquatch_ doesn't really become important in canada until the 1930s, when because of the truly great unknown animals of the giant farbauti and of themselves, their ragged, unfurry skin is as white as a god of light who was next me; and in the motion of the twilight they could find it, on those marvelous birthday mornings, he would peel back a tiny bit of a horse. ( conan the usurper, by david gerrold < 1258069791 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would I mention it to myself? :-) < 1258069792 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A|t{u~v[X7=Ø:Pzno5xp}y8/f1liated/anmaster: they say that applying a unicorn horn rule is if it was a serviette he had no wallet and no pockets, so you can be almost instantly fatal. its streaming mane kindled, and is looked upon as the wolf runs," mom said. " it can catch. < 1258069811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, because you are insane due to crawl? < 1258069812 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1258069822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1258069823 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, Crawl is fun < 1258069825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, !!!!! < 1258069830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, fungot bug above < 1258069830 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you swallowed the fortune cookie is the son of the sun god of fire. < 1258069835 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, NetHack compiles under DJGPP (as does SLASH 'EM and Falcon's Eye) < 1258069837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, dual highlight thing again < 1258069850 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, with the corrupted data < 1258069859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :happened once before as you may remember < 1258069868 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as does Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup (and the original) < 1258069881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, what about X? < 1258069882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1258069890 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :X runs under cygwin < 1258069893 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there was a Xlibemu at one time, but v1 only < 1258069896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, a ported X I assume < 1258069901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, v1 of? < 1258069904 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually, I forgot about Desqview/X < 1258069911 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's proprietary, old, and v1 only also < 1258069914 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v1 of DJGPP < 1258069915 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(pre 1996) < 1258069917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258069925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, ABI breakage? < 1258069926 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v2 is DPMI only, LFNs out-of-the-box < 1258069934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LFN? < 1258069938 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :v1 was GO32.EXE extender, supported VCPI or DPMI etc., no LFNs < 1258069944 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LFN = more than 8.3 < 1258069946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VCPI? < 1258069950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, 8.3 of? < 1258069954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh filenames < 1258069955 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :VCPI = DOS extenders before DPMI existed < 1258069976 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which Windows stopped supporting (directly) in Win 3.0 < 1258070002 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, and all my systems are 64-bit. So I don't need to bother about even seeing that mess any more < 1258070004 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only Win 3.x /S ("standard" / 286) mode supported VCPI (which was ironically an extension of EMS and needed a 386) < 1258070009 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notices anmaster is sleep-IRC'ing < 1258070013 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what mess? < 1258070020 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you don't have to see anything if you close your eyes ;-) < 1258070023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :immibis, failing to get away from the computer when I should < 1258070026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1258070041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, mess? Well. DPMI. The yield stuff. Lots of more? < 1258070051 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, DOSEMU works pretty well under x86-64 (for most DJGPP apps, anyways) < 1258070076 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, it's supposed to be transparent, you shouldn't have to think of the low-level details < 1258070081 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, most of them probably work natively under linux anyway. So I fail to see the point. < 1258070083 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... unless you want to < 1258070097 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :natively IF somebody compiled them for you < 1258070101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, no proper memory protection. No fork(). Lots of more < 1258070109 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has memory protection < 1258070111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, um. I have make :P < 1258070120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, oh really? NX too? < 1258070131 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1258070150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, can you make an app not able to break out? < 1258070158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, even proper *nix like security < 1258070185 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe, maybe not < 1258070195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, what about file permissions? < 1258070195 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know for sure, honestly < 1258070224 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DR-DOS supports passwords and weak partition encryption, but I assume that's not what you mean < 1258070238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I meant chmod < 1258070240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and chown < 1258070249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :multiuser system basically < 1258070255 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOS inherently doesn't natively support anything more than +a +r +s +h < 1258070266 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are multiuser DOSes, but I've never used 'em (very rare) < 1258070268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I'm not familiar with those < 1258070276 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+a = archive bit < 1258070278 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+s = system bit < 1258070280 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+ h = hidden < 1258070283 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+r = read only < 1258070291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1258070298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why +a? < 1258070307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't comparing timestamp work < 1258070317 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :timestamps can change, I guess < 1258070325 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know the official reason, honestly, and nobody uses it anymore < 1258070330 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, so can that bit, otherwise useless < 1258070380 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if a backup is interrupted halfway through, the next run will still backup the other half because their A bits are still set?