00:00:16 <immibis> but with timestamps it's either all of the files or none of them
00:00:32 <AnMaster> immibis, um. sure. but you could do that with updating the timestamp file listing as you did the backup
00:00:55 <AnMaster> wait, you need two files, still easy
00:01:00 <immibis> like updating the last modified date? but then it isn't the date it was last modified anymore
00:01:06 <Rugxulo> maybe some people didn't want to change their timestamps when backing up?? (dunno)
00:01:10 <AnMaster> immibis, like keeping a list like:
00:01:23 <Rugxulo> there is only one time in DOS: last modified
00:01:45 <Rugxulo> last access and creation are supported in FAT32 (but not by FreeDOS for speed reasons)
00:01:54 <AnMaster> and when backing up check the last modification time, see if it is newer than what is your list of files
00:02:05 <immibis> much more complicated than a simple bit on each file
00:02:22 <Rugxulo> AnMaster, my only regret is that we're stuck with Bash 2.05b, which doesn't support BashFunge :-(
00:02:38 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, bashfunge? why does that sound familiar
00:02:41 <Rugxulo> (probably not THAT hard to port 3.0, though I'm probably not too handy in that area)
00:02:47 * AnMaster is seeing zombies and spooks right now
00:03:02 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, bashfunge was really broken. And I won't fix it.
00:03:11 <Rugxulo> considering I've only know about Befunge for less than 3 months, it can't have been that long ;-)
00:03:22 <Rugxulo> *sniff* and it was such a good idea :-/
00:03:42 <Rugxulo> (worked in Cygwin although I didn't test that hard)
00:03:49 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, sure. But well the unlimited size turned out to be a pain
00:04:06 <Rugxulo> God forbid you do a B93-only version ;-)
00:04:08 <AnMaster> plus some of the 98-stuff is missimplemented
00:04:22 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, yeah. I'm not about to touch that code
00:04:33 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, anyway, if I did, I would go bash 4
00:04:38 * Rugxulo thinks he called three people lazy today (in jest), heh
00:04:42 <AnMaster> some really useful stuff there
00:04:52 <Rugxulo> meh, might as well go Perl or Python or Ruby or ...
00:05:03 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, no. zsh would be one step in between
00:05:27 <AnMaster> bash3, bash4, perl/python/ruby
00:05:37 <AnMaster> bash3, bash4, zsh, perl/python/ruby
00:06:19 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, anyway, isn't everyone else on bash4 nowdays?
00:06:34 <Rugxulo> I've seen many Linux distros still using 3.2
00:06:38 <Rugxulo> even Cygwin still uses 3.2
00:06:52 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, well sure. I have a few around here. Arch, Ubuntu, Gentoo
00:07:15 <Rugxulo> Ubuntu? if you say so, it wasn't last I checked (but haven't gotten 9.10 yet)
00:07:24 <pikhq> Gentoo upgraded only somewhat recently, but yeah, it's 4.0 here.
00:07:41 <AnMaster> can't check *bsd atm. Probably okay on freebsd. No clue about open or net
00:08:05 <Rugxulo> those obviously don't use Bash by default
00:08:22 <AnMaster> oh mac OS X is probably very outdated
00:08:35 <Rugxulo> probably, but I don't have a Mac
00:08:48 <Rugxulo> my Dad's five-year-old Panther (10.3.9) still had 2.05b also
00:09:04 <AnMaster> Rugxulo, oldest one I ever used was tiger
00:09:22 <AnMaster> btw I saw someone using twm and tcsh today
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00:09:39 <AnMaster> it was a teacher at university, starting a projector to demonstrate stuff
00:09:41 <Rugxulo> or maybe that was tcsh, who knows
00:09:53 <AnMaster> it ran ubuntu, with console login, then starting X manually
00:10:12 <AnMaster> and yes it was definitely csh, think it was tcsh even
00:10:40 <AnMaster> and that old black/white checker bg
00:12:16 <AnMaster> I have not the foggiest idea why he used ubuntu as the base for that. After all that sounds like a pain compared to using arch that way.
00:13:06 * Rugxulo isn't sure ick input works correctly ... or else isn't doing it correctly
00:15:23 <Rugxulo> ah, I see ... "ONE OH THREE" is Intercal input
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02:21:54 <immibis> does anyone have any ideas about debugging dynamic recompilers?
02:46:09 <immibis> "In medicine, a cathartic is a substance which accelerates defecation." <-- wtf?
02:46:39 <GregorR> Well, catheters can be quite cathartic.
02:49:10 <immibis> lol it must be really bad code if it makes desmume crahs
02:49:21 <immibis> (ds emulator, which is what my recompiler is running on)
02:51:08 <immibis> currently it runs the recompiler until a jump instruction, then runs the interpreter until the same instruction, etc... until something doesn't match or isn't implemented
02:51:18 <immibis> but comparing all of memory takes ages
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03:39:47 <coppro> Are there any esoteric languages based on Conway's Game of Life?
03:42:52 <immibis> yes http://esolangs.org/wiki/Golang
03:43:08 <immibis> wait, now i can't delete that
03:47:01 <immibis> REDGREEN is a superset of the game of life: http://catseye.tc/projects/redgreen/eg/life.red
03:47:44 <coppro> wow that's pretty neat
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04:09:14 <Ilari> Heh. DVD-ROM disks that are claimed to last 1ka. Even if they last in readable shape for half that (500a), one probably isn't going to get any sane data off them...
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06:24:39 <fizzie> AnMaster: It's not "happened once before"; by my count this was at least the fourth occurrence. I probably should save those ?-generated random numbers somewhere so that I could reproduce it. (Or just run the text-generation code again and again until it crashes; can't take that long.)
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10:43:31 <AnMaster> great.... zooming a pdf to 150% in evince and in okular gives completely different results
10:43:54 <AnMaster> in evince the text is then about twice as big as in okular
10:58:51 <fizzie> I've always assumed that the "100 %" there is supposed to take into account the screen DPI and show it at "natural size"; come to think of it, I wonder if that's true.
11:01:01 <fizzie> For an A4 .pdf, evince's "100 %" seems to be pretty close to natural A4 size, though the width is about 7 mm off; xpdf's "100 %" is utterly too small.
11:01:46 <fizzie> And Adobe Reader's "100 %" is something like 3 cm too wide.
11:02:34 <fizzie> Ah, that's because Reader's configuration is not "Use system setting: 97 pixels/inch" but instead "Custom resolution: 110 pixels/inch". Don't know where that came from.
11:02:52 <Deewiant> It defaults to a custom resolution.
11:04:44 <fizzie> With the system default 97 ppi, it's the same width that Evince does. (The "correct" value -- leading to the right width -- would seem to be somewhere between 99 and 100.)
11:07:29 <fizzie> What's really strange is the xrandr output: TMDS-1 connected 1600x1200+0+0 (normal left inverted right x axis y axis) 367mm x 275mm
11:07:52 <fizzie> 1600 points in 367mm would give exactly that 110 ppi. But it's very much incorrect.
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11:09:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, hm what about okular then?
11:09:30 <AnMaster> I found no custom resolution setting in okular
11:10:45 <fizzie> okular's "100 %" seems to mostly match the xpdf one; I guess they were related, anyway?
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12:18:09 <AnMaster> hm ok I got a simple hello world to build as a classic PPC app under MPW now
12:18:16 <AnMaster> can't make it work as 68k nor as FAT
12:18:30 <AnMaster> so should be ready to take on ick if I pre-generate most files
13:03:27 <AnMaster> oh hah it seems including the type "long long" makes the 68k compiler crash
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16:34:27 <AnMaster> ais523, some progress with ick on mac
16:34:40 <AnMaster> the SIZEOF__BOOL thing in config.h
16:34:45 <AnMaster> what do you do if there is no _Bool
16:35:02 <ais523> I think the code accepts either as meaning no _Bool
16:35:04 <AnMaster> ais523, and what is the difference between bconfig.h and config.h?
16:35:12 <ais523> AnMaster: nothing unless you're cross-compiling
16:35:17 <AnMaster> oh and I got bin2c to build. but I can't redirect IO do it
16:35:27 <AnMaster> nor give it command line arguments
16:35:36 <ais523> if you are cross-compiling, then bconfig is for the system you build on, whereas config is for the system you're targeting
16:36:01 <ais523> the output of bin2c doesn't depend on anything but the input files, so feel free to use a prebuilt version of the resulting .c files
16:36:18 <AnMaster> ais523, same goes for oil btw I think
16:36:28 <ais523> and same fix will work
16:36:30 <AnMaster> ais523, for ick I have to figure out some way around it
16:36:36 <ais523> are you sure you can't redirect, though?
16:36:42 <ais523> write a wrapper that uses system and freopen, if you like
16:36:45 <ais523> and use that to do the redirection
16:36:55 <AnMaster> ais523, there is no shell to do it in. As for system(), no clue what it does
16:37:16 <ais523> according to the Wikipedia article you linked, the shell-equivalent is pretty good at redirection...
16:37:51 <AnMaster> ais523, it works for special MPW tools only. Which are not normal applications
16:38:02 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and there are two ways to go: MPW (free download) or CodeWarrior (far from). The latter supports emulating some aspects of a terminal for your app. STDIO
16:38:10 <ais523> Wikipedia said it worked for everything, by hooking syscalls
16:38:47 <AnMaster> ais523, hum. didn't work for me
16:39:30 <AnMaster> ais523, will check if I can get bin2c to build under MPW. with codewarrior I got that bit to build.
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16:52:07 <AnMaster> ais523, what creator code should ick, bin2c and so on have?
16:53:00 <AnMaster> exactly 4 printable bytes. With printable bytes I mean not just alphanumeric, but also symbols. I have seen SIT! for example. And "MPS "
16:53:13 <ais523> make them all NUL characters
16:54:24 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and "long long" isn't supported by the 68k compiler
16:54:42 <AnMaster> ais523, strdup is missing. So is snprintf
16:54:48 <ais523> AnMaster: config.h should catch those
16:54:57 <ais523> they should be #ifdef-guarded
16:55:02 <AnMaster> ais523, yes. But it wants size of long long somewhere in there
16:55:19 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I haven't got IO to work at all for 68k apps
16:55:26 <AnMaster> as in, freopen to a file doesn't work
16:55:45 <AnMaster> (which is how I found out size of the types for it)
16:56:22 <AnMaster> ais523, "doesn't work" here means "compiles and runs fine, but no resulting file"
16:57:08 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, what is the file list for ick, avoiding any *.a (I haven't figured out how they work yet)
16:57:34 <ais523> AnMaster: as in, the sources or the binaries?
16:58:17 <AnMaster> ais523, list of all *.o that ends up in it
16:58:36 <AnMaster> ais523, I have tried figuring out from the Makefile.am but that was quite messy
16:59:28 <ais523> AnMaster: it's the contents of ick_SOURCES, nodist_ick_SOURCES, and ick_LDADD
17:00:11 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the oil stuff. MPW makefile must do all the work in advance as you knopw
17:00:12 <ais523> so src/feh2.c src/dekludge.c src/ick_lose.c src/fiddle.c src/perpet.c src/uncommon.c parser.y lexer.l idiotism.oil are the sources
17:00:45 <ais523> feh2.o dekludge.o ick_lose.o fiddle.o perpet.o uncommon.o parser.o lexer.o libidiot.a are the object files
17:01:03 <ais523> basically, the files generated by oil don't exist until oil runs
17:01:08 <AnMaster> ais523, the make here outputs a script. So it must be able to figure out exactly which files would be generated by oil
17:01:19 <ais523> AnMaster: it depends on the input, though, as to how many there are
17:01:40 <ais523> AnMaster: see the prebuilt/ directory
17:01:41 <AnMaster> ais523, well sure. But you surely see the issue here? I can't work around it in any sane way
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17:01:44 <ais523> I thought of that one already
17:01:57 <ais523> and work around it in an insane way, then
17:02:02 <ais523> say by invoking the make recursively
17:02:10 <ais523> once to figure out how many files are needed, once to actually do the building
17:03:18 <AnMaster> ais523, also I can't figure out a make rule for files in a subdirectory
17:04:11 <ais523> are you sure that using the make version there at all is the right thing to do, if it's that limited?
17:04:17 <ais523> is there any shellscript-equivalent?
17:05:16 <AnMaster> ais523, well, the make one is better than a plain script, becuase compiling and linking is complex. So I don't want to have to write out lots of full command lines. Unless you can tell me how to do functions in the MPW shell.
17:06:03 <ais523> I don't know how the MPW shell works at all
17:06:06 <AnMaster> ais523, oh btw to add to the confusion. *.a is usually asm here
17:06:26 <ais523> there's no actual need to library up libidiot.a
17:06:37 <ais523> except that make understands one library better than an unknown number of object files
17:07:16 <AnMaster> ais523, there are some sort of libraries. I have yet to figure out how to create those
17:17:56 <AnMaster> "Unable to create finder parameter list for this application"
17:18:24 <AnMaster> that is due to the command line argument it wants
17:25:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I figured it out. For normal applications, all arguments on command line must be valid existing files
17:25:31 <AnMaster> ais523, that sure is a showblocker
17:25:55 <AnMaster> ais523, any way to work around it in ick and such?
17:26:22 <ais523> it'd have to get its command line arguments some other way
17:26:56 <AnMaster> ais523, also even after creating the relevant file, it didn't work. Not sure why yet.
17:27:08 <AnMaster> it runs now, but gives an error message
17:27:17 <AnMaster> (the normal one for no arguments)
17:28:10 <AnMaster> ais523, what about converting it to an MPW tool?
17:28:26 * AnMaster looks at an example MPW tool to figure out how messy that would be
17:28:49 <AnMaster> okay answer to that is "quite a bit"
17:31:11 <AnMaster> ah yes a special resource script
17:32:21 <AnMaster> ais523, if this is to go upstream I will need a special subdirectory for mac specific files
17:32:28 <AnMaster> any recommended directory name?
17:32:34 <AnMaster> also where is the current darcs repo
17:32:44 <ais523> and, I actually can't rememebr
17:32:49 <ais523> I thought you were hosting it
17:33:04 <AnMaster> ais523, as I told you ages ago, that server went down.
17:33:14 <AnMaster> must have been middle of summer or so.
17:33:29 <AnMaster> ais523, and you said iirc you would move it.
17:34:05 <ais523> well, it's nowhere atm then
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17:41:03 <AnMaster> ais523, interestingly enough the MPW shell and MPW make makes use of some non-ASCII letters
17:41:13 <AnMaster> like "greater than or equal to" for redirecting stderr
17:41:36 <AnMaster> or some weird symbol I can't type on my pc for what \ would do in a normal makefile
17:44:53 <AnMaster> means bar in folder foo on Volume
17:45:04 <AnMaster> means foo in current directory
17:45:36 <AnMaster> exactly. lucky thing I didn't have a volume called baudot.c
17:45:57 <AnMaster> however, I wonder what that thing actually did, since it didn't give an error either
17:47:37 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I managed to lock up MPW by bin2c, when it didn't quit but read on stdin. heh
17:48:18 <AnMaster> ais523, the tool thing is similar to a dynamically loaded module
17:48:43 <AnMaster> okay bin2c foo < :src:baudot.bin > :baudot.c
17:48:53 <AnMaster> (minus the "okay" first of course)
17:49:28 <AnMaster> ais523, however, it seems all source files must be in the same directory, no subdirs allowed. Or I just can't figure it out
17:49:52 <ais523> just write a script to move them all into the same dir, then
17:50:10 <AnMaster> for implicit targets at least. Not sure about explicit argets
17:51:24 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and you know that old style s thingy?
17:52:07 <AnMaster> well, sometimes it uses two of them instead
17:54:08 <AnMaster> ais523, let me take a screenshot... a few seconds
17:56:39 <AnMaster> ais523, look at http://omploader.org/vMnJoag
17:56:58 <AnMaster> the cursor there is from linux
17:57:20 <AnMaster> which is odd, maybe due to screenshot app. Since it doesn't look like that to me
17:57:49 <AnMaster> ais523, what? the cursor or the makefile?
17:58:19 <AnMaster> ais523, the window behind is that worksheet
17:58:32 <AnMaster> think a cross between a shell and emacs *scratch* buffer
18:00:12 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, ick building the result itself won't work. You will have to print some lines for the user to run in the MPW shell
18:00:22 <AnMaster> in fact it might be best to make ick too into an MPW tool
18:01:06 <AnMaster> ais523, and yeah mpw tools can't run other ones. which is why make prints the commands for you to run
18:01:11 <AnMaster> and why oil will cause a headache
18:02:04 <AnMaster> ais523, and yes I have no idea about the separate src dir for prebuilt or generated stuff
18:02:38 <AnMaster> ais523, btw the way to make things find the source dir is to add a line like: {ObjDir} <old-style s> {SrcDir}
18:02:50 <AnMaster> you can't have several it seems
18:03:17 <AnMaster> probably worth experimenting with that to figure out if you can have more than one src dir
18:03:28 <AnMaster> ObjDir and SrcDir must of course be defined
18:13:35 <AnMaster> ais523, btw do you know how classic mac os did memory management? It is rather horrible: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_memory_management
18:16:04 <AnMaster> ais523, aha found how to do multiple directories. You just list them all after that old style s
18:33:28 <AnMaster> ais523, what to call the folder where generated files are placed during the build?
18:33:38 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't use the object dir
18:33:47 <AnMaster> because that makes mpw make crash
18:33:57 <ais523> you're meant to use an out-of-tree build anyway
18:34:44 <AnMaster> me has no clue how to go upwards like ".." under *nix and windows
18:34:52 <ais523> you could use :buildobj and :buildc if you need separate dirs
18:35:12 <AnMaster> you need a : at the end if it is a directory
18:40:02 <AnMaster> ais523, ah found out some more details from reading python's macpath.py
18:40:09 <AnMaster> On the Mac, relative paths begin with a colon,
18:40:09 <AnMaster> but as a special case, paths with no colons at all are also relative.
18:40:32 <AnMaster> oh and :: means "parent dir" it seems
18:40:37 <AnMaster> well that should solve some issues
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18:55:34 <ehird> I am using a trackball!
18:56:34 <ehird> Need to increase the sensitivity, I think, but I'll leave it for now.
18:56:45 <ehird> Vintage Logitech TrackMan Marble, circa like 1995. Excellent condition.
18:57:11 <ehird> Also, I hope the pun in the topic isn't disparaging Go. That's Ken Thompson's project, you know.
18:57:20 <ehird> — and it looks great, with some warts
18:57:37 <AnMaster> ehird, iirc Gregor said it was horrible yesterday
18:57:53 <ehird> Then he's an idiot. It has a good subset of the old Unix team working on it.
18:57:56 <ehird> Ken Thompson, Rob Pike, etc.
18:58:08 <ehird> And its design is mostly clean and elegant.
18:59:31 <ehird> 13:52:16 <Rugxulo> BTW, have you heard of "Go" yet?
18:59:31 <ehird> 13:52:20 <Rugxulo> (since you like D)
18:59:34 <ehird> ... Go is completely unlike D.
19:00:20 <ehird> 14:04:14 <GregorR> Since people were talking about Google Go the other day, here is my brief opinion from poking arounda t it a bit: Probably the worst language design in at least a decade. Easily the worst toolchain design in the entire history of toolchains. If I never touch this language again, it will be too soon.
19:00:42 <ehird> Yes, the compiler structure is totally unlike any existing compiler. That's why it's much faster and cleaner — it's the same design as the Plan 9 C compilers.
19:00:49 <ehird> (So, not unlike any existing compiler, but meh.)
19:01:23 <ehird> 14:05:23 <GregorR> Rugxulo: In terms of "real" languages. It's completely horrible.
19:01:23 <ehird> You are completely off your rocker. Worst language in a decade? Are you absolutely serious?
19:02:13 <ehird> 14:07:32 <GregorR> Rugxulo: Its type system is insane, its toolchain is horrible, its method of "encapsulation" is capitalization, it has no consistent interoperability story, lesse...
19:02:13 <ehird> Its type system is very usual with some exceptions, and some nice things. Its toolchain is VERY VERY VERY fast and simple. Its SYNTAX for encapsulation is capitalisation.
19:02:35 <ehird> 14:07:59 <GregorR> Rugxulo: THE BINARIES ARE NAMED PER FUCKING ARCHITECTURE
19:02:36 <ehird> 14:08:05 <GregorR> 6g? 8g? WTF?!
19:02:36 <ehird> Which means that cross-compiling is the same as regular compiling, an ADVANTAGE.
19:02:56 <ehird> 14:08:26 <GregorR> Fast is not a pro unless we're compiling in 1965.
19:02:56 <ehird> It compiles the 100k line go code in seconds
19:03:22 <ehird> 14:09:01 <GregorR> It has fork-join-ish concurrency, which makes it "good" in a "hey if we restrict you to a ridiculous degree you won't make mistakes" sense.
19:03:22 <ehird> It has coroutines.
19:03:44 <ehird> 14:10:53 --- topic: set to 'Go is a no-go | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D' by GregorR
19:03:44 <ehird> did ken thompson rape you or something
19:06:32 <ehird> haha this trackball poops if i spin the wheel really fast
19:06:40 <ehird> "fuck it, I'm not tracking that"
19:11:05 <ehird> 09:25:26 <AnMaster> ais523, I figured it out. For normal applications, all arguments on command line must be valid existing files
19:11:06 <ehird> 09:25:31 <AnMaster> ais523, that sure is a showblocker
19:11:06 <ehird> 09:25:36 <ais523> wow, that's weird
19:11:06 <ehird> 09:25:55 <AnMaster> ais523, any way to work around it in ick and such?
19:11:07 <ehird> 09:26:22 <ais523> it'd have to get its command line arguments some other way
19:11:07 <ehird> just create the files beforehand, duh
19:22:53 <Gregor> <ehird> Ken Thompson, Rob Pike, etc.
19:22:53 <Gregor> <ehird> And its design is mostly clean and elegant.
19:22:53 <Gregor> Clean and elegant?!?!?
19:22:57 <Gregor> Syntactically clean maybe, semantically nonsense.
19:23:07 <ehird> I am Gregor and I will be outraged and call it the puke's dog because it is not what I am used to! I am not required to provide arguments, only RAGE!
19:23:15 <ehird> HEAR ME ROAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR
19:23:26 <Gregor> I provided a bunch of arguments when I was arguing against it yesterday.
19:23:33 <ehird> You didn't, actually.
19:23:36 -!- kar8nga has quit (Remote closed the connection).
19:23:38 <ehird> You just called various aspects of it stupid.
19:23:52 <Gregor> 1) Their half-assed structural subtyping is no replacement for inheritance. Inheritance is useless.
19:24:08 <Gregor> Inheritance isn't useless rather X-D
19:24:17 <ehird> Inheritance is bad, and before you argue against that plz google some bit, especially c2 wiki.
19:24:37 <ehird> It isn't half-assed, it's minimalist. It looks stupid because minimalism does look stupid.
19:24:41 <ehird> Unix looked stupid.
19:24:55 <ehird> It being no replacement is your opinion; clearly they are having no issues.
19:25:31 <ehird> If anyone wants some real description and criticism of Go, http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2009/11/googles_new_language_go.php and http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2009/11/the_go_i_forgot_concurrency_an.php are good reads.
19:25:57 <Gregor> It's not worth my time arguing this, particularly not on #esoteric or with you, so I'm not going to.
19:26:26 <ehird> Your arguments continue to stun. Hey, if I'd said that to AnMaster a wild pack of bears would be mauling me round about now.
19:27:05 <ehird> At least you had the chance to give us your interesting arguments: "It's horrible" "It sucks" "That compiler naming thing is stupid" "The toolchain sucks".
19:27:13 <ehird> I will ponder them.
19:33:33 <ehird> Also, http://code.google.com/p/go/source/detail?r=4a3f6bbb5f0c6021279ccb3c23558b3c480d995f is such an epic event in the history of computing that anything it's part of cannot possibly be wrong.
19:36:40 <ehird> (To idiots who don't get it: It's a change by Ken Thompson. [[Ken Thompson was once asked what he would do differently if he were redesigning the UNIX system. His reply: "I'd spell creat with an e."]])
19:37:29 <ehird> http://ads.stackoverflow.com/ads/MostWanted_728x90_Static.png ;; by whom?!
19:37:44 <AnMaster> ehird, some of those files would be illegal file names. Oh and there are some other issues with it too
19:39:39 * ehird tries to emulate the scroll wheel in os x
19:40:01 -!- Sgeo has joined.
19:40:27 <ehird> ais523: think I'll pwn at Enigma with this trackball? :P
19:40:51 * Sgeo recently switched to Chrome
19:40:54 <ehird> give me a level that requires precision
19:40:57 <ehird> Sgeo: it's a good browser
19:41:00 <ehird> much better than firefox
19:41:16 <Sgeo> I'd like it better if, when switching to a tab, the tab wasn't momentarily blank
19:41:20 <Sgeo> But I found an issue discussing it
19:41:27 <Sgeo> So I'll look into that
19:41:39 <AnMaster> ais523, why not an implicit rule for those bin2c generated files?
19:41:53 <Sgeo> ehird, http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Chrome/thread?tid=020198aa328835c0&hl=en
19:41:57 <ais523> because I like being explicit
19:42:06 <ais523> it makes it easier to track everything that's going on
19:42:49 * Sgeo tries the memory-model=high thing
19:42:51 <ehird> okay need to reboot for this scrolling thing bye
19:42:57 -!- ehird has quit.
19:43:16 <Sgeo> I just added it, and Chrome seems faster in general
19:47:13 <AnMaster> ais523, does oil only depend on the generated file oil-oil.c?
19:48:03 -!- ehird has joined.
19:48:03 <AnMaster> ais523, btw / is valid in directory names on classic mac os
19:48:21 <ehird> As on OS X, though not :.
19:48:31 <ehird> / is just turned into : for the BSD subsystem.
19:48:37 <AnMaster> ehird, well : isn't here of course
19:48:46 <ehird> : isn't allowed because it'd become /.
19:48:56 <ehird> Because old volume-style things are still supported
19:48:58 <AnMaster> <ehird> / is just turned into : for the BSD subsystem. <-- seems backwards
19:49:07 <ehird> AnMaster: It's so you can name things with / in them
19:49:49 <ehird> Your mom is annoying.
19:49:53 <ehird> Now to try Enigma.
19:50:25 <ehird> ais523: A level that requires precision plz
19:53:21 <ais523> or V/#95 I suppose, that one's rather infamous
19:53:28 <ais523> but it does require loads of precision and hardly any thought otherwise
19:53:34 <ehird> I think this trackball is too good to make me better at Enigma... picking up all my little tremors and the like.
19:55:03 <ais523> it's one of the hardest dexterity levels I know
19:56:11 <AnMaster> get "Error: illegal combination of types" in the MPW header SizeTDef,h
19:56:16 <ehird> this was a good deal for £20.07 shipped
19:56:27 * Sgeo is now in love with Chrome
19:56:31 <ehird> why didn't they make it use mac os filetypes? :(
19:56:38 <AnMaster> ehird, I can't copy and paste from sheepshaver
19:56:42 <ehird> finally, you like a good thing
19:56:43 <Sgeo> Hopefully, this won't cause issues with other programs, though
19:56:54 <ehird> AnMaster: old mac os had no file extensions, so i thought they were emulated with ,
19:56:57 <ehird> but they're being emulated with .
19:57:03 <ehird> real filetypes would be more fun
19:57:27 <AnMaster> ehird, hah no. The creator is 'MPS ' (without the quotes, with the space) and the file type is 'TEXT' (again without the quotes)
19:57:46 <ehird> creator 'MPS ', file type 'CHED'
19:57:51 <ehird> source code being 'CSRC'
19:57:55 <Sgeo> I can actually close other tabs without watching the browser freeze1
19:58:01 <ehird> (CHDR is also ok for headers, whatever)
19:58:04 <AnMaster> editor doesn't display line numbers
19:58:15 <ehird> well it does at the bottom
19:58:31 <ehird> Sgeo: you can hold down ctrl+t for 10 seconds with chrome without it lagging much
19:58:33 * AnMaster begins counting the 16 lines from the top the error was on
19:58:50 <ehird> AnMaster: and then look at the most suspicious line
19:58:55 <ehird> fun how cpp fucks up everything innit.
19:59:11 <ehird> typedef unsigned size_t;
20:00:02 <AnMaster> /* Define to `unsigned int' if <sys/types.h> does not define. */
20:00:20 <AnMaster> however, it does exist in stdlib.h and such
20:00:29 <ehird> just #include <stdlib.h>
20:00:59 <AnMaster> ais523, can you make it check in stddef.h instead? That is the standard place for size_t
20:01:14 <ehird> AnMaster: do you want this trackball? it's absolutely wonderful, and with a shallow learning curve, it's just that i think my hands are too small :P
20:01:21 <ehird> POSIX specific? Hope you use it in cfunge!
20:01:22 <ais523> AnMaster: send a bug report to the autoconf people, then
20:01:30 <ais523> but I'll make that change sometime later if I remember
20:01:52 <ehird> Oh I thought you meant
20:01:56 <ehird> do the UK people pay for postage
20:01:59 -!- zzo38 has joined.
20:02:09 <ehird> No, I'm not paying postage :-P
20:02:13 <zzo38> Do you know anything about writing operating systems? What is the code for loading data from the boot disk into RAM?
20:03:23 <AnMaster> ais523, which programs depends on config.h and which on bconfig.h?
20:03:52 <ais523> stuff that's only used during the build depends on bconfig.h
20:03:58 <zzo38> I found a page on the wiki called [[Sammich]] but it seems it so far is only a example program, do you think anything should be done with that?
20:04:03 <ais523> everything else depends on config.h
20:04:18 <AnMaster> ais523, right. So only oil and bin2c? You used "such that"
20:04:23 <ais523> zzo38: hopefully the author would come back later
20:04:29 <ais523> AnMaster: those are the only two I can think of right now
20:04:41 <AnMaster> and yes, claiming that size_t existed in sys/types.h worked. oil compiled
20:04:57 <ehird> AnMaster: It's ergonomic (fits your whole hand!) and has a 3D scrollball! All you have to do is configure your computer to do it. And the clever thing is that the trackball IS the scrollball! No moving your hand! Um, okay, so technically it's just making your system emulate a scroll wheel with the trackball; shut up.
20:04:59 * AnMaster test runs oil with no arguments on nix to see what happens
20:05:26 <AnMaster> ah, does not give an error. No good then
20:05:32 <ais523> AnMaster: you have to give it an input file, IIRC
20:05:41 <AnMaster> and I have not yet figured out how to send EOF
20:06:30 <AnMaster> ehird, meh. I'm using left atm for my mouse.
20:06:31 <ehird> You say you use a mouse in both, so quit whining. :P
20:06:50 <ehird> Um, it's vintage! Circa 1995!
20:06:54 <ehird> It has the oooooooooooooold Logitech logo.
20:07:22 <ehird> Not that old one; the one before that.
20:07:39 <zzo38> I already started writing a operating system, I might call it 4RM, or maybe it should be called CHAOS instead (for "CHAOS Has An Operating System")
20:07:44 <ehird> http://www.goodlogo.com/images/logos/small/logitech_logo_2485.gif
20:08:04 <ehird> It, um, has screws in it for easy user-servicability?
20:08:09 <ehird> And an easy way to pop out the trackball!
20:08:15 <ehird> And a quite-long PS/2 cord!
20:10:03 <AnMaster> ais523, where does oil put the files? Current directory won't work. And changing current directory seems to confuse stuff
20:10:13 <ehird> My thumb sure is getting good exercise.
20:10:17 <ais523> I think it's current directory
20:10:29 <AnMaster> <ehird> It, um, has screws in it for easy user-servicability? <-- very nice
20:10:43 <ehird> AnMaster: Yes, it's refreshingly non-user-hostile.
20:11:03 <AnMaster> ehird, it was expensive as new?
20:11:06 <ais523> AnMaster: you could modify the code so that a particular #definition in bconfig.h put them somewhere else
20:11:22 <ehird> AnMaster: Pretty average price for a niche mouse, I imagine.
20:11:31 <ehird> Probably less, even.
20:11:31 -!- zzo38 has left (?).
20:11:39 <ehird> Computer stuff was cheap in 1995.
20:12:33 <ehird> It's basically new, anyway; it came from some sort of warehouse and the only imperfections are a slight crack in the plastic around some hole that I don't know what it is (barely noticeable) and some sticky stuff on a small part of the end of the PS/2 cord.
20:12:48 <ehird> Although it might need some lubrication to work perfectly, not sure.
20:13:48 <ehird> It has dots on the wheel???? I CANNOT SELL THIS ANY MORE
20:13:57 <ehird> No no wait! Convenient indentations on the three buttons help finger placement.
20:15:38 -!- Asztal has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)).
20:16:06 -!- Asztal has joined.
20:16:58 <AnMaster> ehird, you don't like that trackball?
20:16:59 <ehird> Little black spots on the red ball in an intriguing pattern. It's so that the optomechanical (I think) magic can work.
20:17:12 <ehird> I love it! I just need to grow my hand to use it properly, I think :P
20:17:22 <AnMaster> ehird, just wait a few years then?
20:17:32 <AnMaster> most likely it will work perfectly in a few years then
20:17:45 <ehird> Well, sure, that would work.
20:17:45 <ais523> ehird: the (Microsoft, and therefore Logitech) trackball I have at home has a red ball whose undersurface is made out of little rings of red
20:17:54 <ais523> (it has a plastic covering on top of that, though)
20:18:00 <ehird> Microsoft, and thterefore Logitech?
20:18:12 <ehird> What crack-smoking planet are you on? xD
20:18:17 <ais523> ehird: Microsoft-branded mice and trackballs are made by Logitech, IIRC
20:18:19 <ais523> at least, they used to be
20:18:26 <ais523> just they have the Microsoft logo on
20:18:30 <ehird> That must be why they're good.
20:18:55 <AnMaster> ehird, my first MS mice had the logitech logo on the bottom of it. in small print. My current one doesn't
20:18:55 <ehird> <font obnoxious=yes>Wikipedia (LOGO) Forever</font>
20:18:57 <ehird> Fuck off, Wikipedia.
20:18:58 <ais523> AnMaster: for all I know they still are
20:19:05 <ehird> Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck Offffffffffffff
20:19:27 <ehird> On Wikipedia pages.
20:19:44 <ais523> apparently someone found out when they opened up a mouse and there was a logitech logo on the circuit board
20:19:49 <ehird> ais523: what type of trackball is it? thumb?
20:19:52 <ais523> (this is on a more recent mouse that didn't have the logitech logo anywhere visible)
20:20:01 <ehird> ais523: right or left?
20:20:15 <ais523> (because everyone in my family's right-handed)
20:20:21 <ehird> colour? (basically equivalent to age)
20:20:48 <ais523> yep, sounds about right
20:20:50 <ehird> or slightly before, maybe 1998 at earlier
20:21:20 <AnMaster> ais523, oil sure takes a long time, or is locked up.
20:21:23 <ais523> it's new enough that the computer that was bought at the same time has an Intel integrated 3D graphics card
20:21:36 <ais523> AnMaster: it shouldn't take /that/ long
20:21:36 <ehird> ais523: oh, then it'll be the latest model, probably
20:21:39 <AnMaster> ais523, it certainly doesn't ever leave yeild the cpu.
20:21:42 <ehird> nobody makes *new* trackballs any more
20:21:51 <ais523> it's just a bison/yacc-generated compiler
20:22:02 <AnMaster> ais523, mouse can be moved, the spinning waiting thing is frozen though
20:22:26 <ehird> ais523: will you help me get c-intercal working on macintosh system 6?
20:22:43 <ais523> AnMaster: it shouldn't be doing that
20:22:53 <ais523> ehird: well, I've been helping AnMaster do it for mac os 9
20:23:14 <ehird> Yes. System 6 is far better, and very different.
20:23:17 <AnMaster> ehird, I have it part working. bin2c works perfectly.
20:23:26 <ehird> Macintosh System 6 is not Mac OS 9.
20:23:33 <ehird> Take your uncouth modernity elsewhere, heathen.
20:23:33 <AnMaster> ehird, I build stuff as MPW tools. Should be portable to 68k
20:23:50 <ehird> MPW is available for System 6, I think.
20:23:52 <AnMaster> ehird, oh except that long long isn't supported, and I have no clue about the type sizes
20:23:58 <ehird> Everything is different.
20:24:05 * ais523 downloads PDP-11 emulator
20:24:13 <Sgeo> http://www.xkcdb.com/?6753
20:24:21 <ehird> System 6 is from such an era that it can only address 8 MiB of RAM.
20:24:29 <AnMaster> ais523, there is oilout00.c. It is empty
20:24:36 <ais523> AnMaster: seems dubious
20:24:40 <AnMaster> ais523, do you accept both \r and \n or only \n?
20:24:41 <ehird> And its standard UI is entirely black and white.
20:24:44 <ais523> something's almost certainly gone wrong
20:24:52 <ehird> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/96/Sys6screenshotbusy.png ;; Anything like Mac OS 9? Didn't think so
20:24:59 <AnMaster> ais523, I think the C compiler does some sort of \r \n swapping for IO by default
20:25:05 <ais523> and the rules for line endings with OIL are that \n is always accepted, \r\n may leave stray \r in the output but is otherwise accepted
20:25:10 <AnMaster> ais523, somewhat like windows does \n <-> \r\n
20:25:18 <ehird> ais523: classic macintosh is just \r
20:25:25 <ais523> ooh, and I read files in binary mode
20:25:28 <ais523> that could explain al ot
20:25:29 <AnMaster> ehird, yes but MrC swaps \r and \n
20:25:36 <ais523> AnMaster: even for binary-mode files?
20:25:55 <ais523> AnMaster: fopen("filename","rb")
20:25:55 <AnMaster> ehird, yeah I thought that too. But it actually means Macintosh RISC C compiler
20:26:07 <ehird> RISC is such a lovely name.
20:26:19 <AnMaster> ais523, I'm unable to locate docs atm. So I don't know if b affects anything
20:26:22 <ehird> This architecture? Exciting. MACINTOSH RISK C COMPILER
20:26:30 <ais523> AnMaster: my guess is it causes the program to read \r as \r
20:26:39 <AnMaster> ais523, and that doesn't work?
20:26:42 <ais523> you'll therefore want to change the newlines to \n in the original idiotism.oil source code
20:27:00 <ais523> either that, or modify oil.y to be able to handle classic Mac newliens
20:27:02 <AnMaster> ais523, they should be \n due to having just copied the file
20:27:16 <ais523> try changing the newlines to some other format to see what happens
20:27:56 <ehird> BBEdit started on System Software 6!
20:28:00 <AnMaster> BBEdit lite claims it is unix line endings
20:28:07 <AnMaster> ehird, do you happen to have the non-lite version?
20:28:21 <ehird> Well, maybe for System 6. :P
20:28:40 <AnMaster> last I have been able to find and extract
20:28:49 <AnMaster> found a later lite version but the download was corrupt
20:29:34 <AnMaster> ehird, tell me if you have better luck however
20:31:09 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway, debugging is near impossible on this. Since I have to restart the system when it locks up. Can't get the key combo for macsbug to work
20:31:18 <AnMaster> it was cmd-alt-power button iirc
20:31:26 <AnMaster> which I have no way of pressing
20:31:51 <ehird> Sure you do, just press keys until it happens
20:32:26 <AnMaster> ehird, it doesn't. I checked in the key mapping file for sheepshaver. There is no such mapping
20:35:24 <ais523> ehird: do you think you'll get C-INTERCAL running on an emulated Mac OS 6 before or after I get it running on an emulated PDP-11?
20:35:38 <ehird> after, I'm terminally lazy
20:35:54 <ehird> Hey, the ball seems to have lubricated itself. Maybe my skin oils helped.
20:41:13 <AnMaster> ais523, how to make oil print some sort of trace info?
20:41:24 <AnMaster> ais523, like processed lines or such
20:41:31 <ais523> AnMaster: by telling Bison to and regenerating the file
20:41:42 <ehird> eh, i wish this scrollwheel emulator didn't move the pointer
20:41:42 <AnMaster> ais523, how do you tell bison that hm
20:41:51 <ehird> and didn't stop when the pointer reaches a screen edge
20:51:12 <ais523> that's kind-of a silly scrollweheel emulator
20:51:26 <ehird> it's meant to emulate the click-and-drag hand tool in e.g. pdf readers
20:51:43 <ehird> but i inversed the axes so it's basically a hold-middle-button-for-scrollbar thiingy
20:51:48 <ehird> except for, you know, those two flaws
20:53:19 <ehird> I'm becoming better at using this trackball, I think.
20:54:47 <ehird> It's weird having full mouse movement when clicking.
20:55:07 <ais523> gah, why does PDP-11 UNIX v5 use "chdir" not "cd"?
20:55:31 <AnMaster> ais523, how does convickt use those bin2c generated files?
20:55:42 <ais523> it doesn't, it uses the originals
20:55:47 <ais523> the generated files are linked into the standard library
20:55:57 <ais523> AnMaster: by fopening them and looking at the contents
20:56:06 <ehird> http://imgur.com/5PUVF.jpg
20:56:07 <ais523> oh, the generated files are .c files
20:56:14 <ais523> so they're compiled then linked in the normal manner
20:56:17 <AnMaster> ais523, why does it do it that way rather than use those generated c files?
20:56:27 <ehird> self-containedness
20:56:43 <ais523> basically, convickt looks at the .bin files (so you can add more)
20:56:55 <AnMaster> ais523, you could add more anyway but ok
20:56:59 <ais523> whereas libick.a contains a compiled version so the resulting programs are self-contained
20:57:11 <AnMaster> ais523, why is it needed in libick.a?
20:57:23 <ais523> AnMaster: so that it's possible for generated programs to do I/O
20:57:57 <AnMaster> ais523, true, but isn't that all in ASCII?
20:58:26 <ais523> hmm... how am I going to shut this ancient UNIX down?
20:58:31 <ais523> it doesn't seem to have any of the usual methods
20:58:36 <ais523> ehird: I was just about to try htat
20:58:50 <ehird> ais523: how is your emulation environment set up?
20:58:55 <ehird> I am very much intrigued
20:58:58 <ais523> ehird: I killed init, and it's still running
20:59:03 <AnMaster> ais523, PDP-11? You didn't try ick on it before?
20:59:06 <ais523> whereas init itself is dead
20:59:07 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I didn't
20:59:08 <ehird> ais523: done init 1 already?
20:59:11 <ais523> which clearly needs correcting
20:59:17 <ehird> can you use the shell?
20:59:17 <ais523> ehird: I'm not entirely sure where init is
20:59:21 <ais523> ehird: yes, sh still works
20:59:30 <ehird> or is there no find?
21:00:27 <ehird> ais523: um, is this gui or command line thing?
21:00:27 <ais523> ugh, I just control-Ded my login shell
21:00:30 <ais523> and it seems to have frozen
21:00:33 <ais523> also, it's command-line
21:00:34 <ehird> hit me up with ssh and i'll try and get it to shutdown
21:00:44 <ehird> ((((also play around with it))))
21:01:19 <ais523> ehird: I killed the emulator with SIGTERM, that seems to have worked
21:01:30 <ehird> yeah but I'll do it properly! :(
21:02:14 <AnMaster> ais523, issue. You depend on unistd.h in convickt. You do not use the config.h check for it
21:02:27 <ehird> ais523: how much do i have to pay you :|
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21:02:40 <ais523> ehird: download and run the emulator yourself if you like
21:02:48 <ehird> what, it comes with unix?
21:03:01 <ais523> well, has a separate download for it
21:03:07 <ais523> http://simh.trailing-edge.com/
21:03:15 <ehird> trailing edge, heh
21:03:19 <ais523> "software kits" contains an image of a system installed with UNIX
21:03:22 <ehird> methinks pdp-11s are much older than the trailing edge
21:03:36 <ehird> "If your host system is Alpha/VMS,"
21:03:38 <AnMaster> ais523, what in unistd.h is it that you use in that file?
21:03:41 <ehird> Congratulations! You don't need a vintage system emulator.
21:03:44 <ais523> AnMaster: not sure offhand
21:03:44 <AnMaster> ais523, because it is a blocker atm
21:03:53 <ehird> take it out and see
21:03:53 <ais523> remove it and see what the error is?
21:04:03 <ehird> ais523: you're using V5 unix?
21:04:18 <ehird> V1 would be nicer of course :P
21:04:20 <ais523> because if ick runs on that, it probably runs on v6 and v7
21:04:28 <ehird> sysv changed a lot
21:04:36 <ehird> i think it invented runlevels, for instance
21:04:39 <ehird> so scratch my `init 1` idea
21:04:40 <ais523> (also, file correctly identified unix_v5_rk.dsk as a "PDP-11 executable")
21:04:42 <AnMaster> ais523, hm only gets a warning then
21:04:48 <ais523> AnMaster: what's the warning?
21:05:02 <AnMaster> ais523, oh just about assignment in if
21:05:06 <ehird> Unix System V, commonly abbreviated SysV (and usually pronounced — though rarely written — as "System 5"), is one of the versions of the Unix operating system. It was originally developed by American Telephone & Telegraph (AT&T) and first released in 1983. Four major versions of System V were released, termed Releases 1, 2, 3 and 4. System V Release 4, or SVR4, was commercially the most successful version, being the result of an effort, marketed as Unix
21:05:06 <ehird> Unification, which solicited the collaboration of the major Unix vendors. It was the source of several commercial common Unix features.
21:05:10 <ehird> no idea what V5 is, then
21:05:11 <ais523> ehird: also make a backup of the .dsk file, it's used to persist data in
21:05:16 <ehird> there's no V release 5...
21:05:26 <ais523> maybe they're releases of System I, or whatevef
21:05:40 <ehird> I very much doubt that
21:05:45 <AnMaster> if(!(ick_datadir=getenv("ICKDATADIR")))
21:05:58 <ais523> AnMaster: oh, for getenv
21:06:09 <AnMaster> ais523, which is stdlib.h says my man page
21:06:12 <ais523> that looks very ifdef-guardable
21:06:19 <ais523> or if it's stdlib.h, just use that instead
21:06:20 <ehird> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Version_7
21:06:28 <ehird> cool, V7 is the first release to widely escape ma bell
21:06:29 <AnMaster> ais523, ... read what I said above
21:06:32 <AnMaster> ais523, "<AnMaster> ais523, oh just about assignment in if"
21:06:40 <ehird> ais523: V7 looks like the best old unix
21:06:46 <ehird> V5 isn't even mentioned in Wikipedia...
21:06:49 <ais523> well, it's likely to have the most features
21:06:50 <fizzie> For historical relationships, just look at http://www.levenez.com/unix/unix_a4.pdf or something.
21:07:12 <ehird> V7 != SysV, just to clarify
21:07:13 <ais523> anyway, I think I'll target V7
21:07:17 <ais523> because it introduced lex and yacc
21:07:19 <AnMaster> ais523, the next few files for convickt crashed the emulator
21:07:21 <ais523> so I'll be able to do a complete install
21:07:25 <ehird> ais523: how boring :P
21:07:37 <AnMaster> ais523, too quick to see the errors though
21:07:37 <ais523> ehird: less boring if you can do the whole thing, rather than relying on prebuilts
21:08:19 <ehird> where do i put the unix files?
21:08:22 <ehird> in a separate dir?
21:08:34 <AnMaster> ais523, the clc-cset file crashes the emulator when compiling
21:08:35 <ehird> PDP10 or PDP11, btw?
21:08:45 <fizzie> From unix_a4.pdf, one path of descent goes V5 -> V6 -> USG 1.0 -> CB UNIX 1...3 -> System III -> System IV -> System V.
21:08:47 <AnMaster> I'm unable to see what errors due to the speed
21:09:02 <AnMaster> ais523, might try this on a real old mac. Should be a bit more stable
21:09:05 <ehird> ais523: Well V7 isn't SysV.
21:09:14 <ais523> wait, /bin/exit is an /actual program/? htf does that work?
21:09:25 <ais523> ehird: ofc not, or Caldera wouldn't have released it under a BSD-style licence
21:09:40 <ais523> admittedly, this is before they became tSCOg...
21:09:44 <ehird> ais523: kill(meinproctree()->parent)
21:09:47 <ehird> is how /bin/exit iwll work
21:10:09 <ehird> anyway, sysv was developed concurrently with unix up to the tenth edition...
21:10:19 <ehird> gcc -std=c99 -U__STRICT_ANSI__ -g -lrt -lm -D_GNU_SOURCE -I . PDP1/pdp1_lp.c PDP1/pdp1_cpu.c PDP1/pdp1_stddev.c PDP1/pdp1_sys.c PDP1/pdp1_dt.c PDP1/pdp1_drm.c PDP1/pdp1_clk.c PDP1/pdp1_dcs.c scp.c sim_console.c sim_fio.c sim_timer.c sim_sock.c sim_tmxr.c sim_ether.c sim_tape.c -I PDP1 -o BIN/pdp1
21:10:20 <ehird> ld: library not found for -lrt
21:10:25 <ais523> /* exit -- end runcom */
21:10:31 <ehird> Many new features were introduced in Version 7.
21:10:31 <ehird> Programming tools: lex, yacc, lint, pcc, and make.
21:10:38 <ais523> that's an incredibly short program
21:10:41 <ehird> yeah, methinks targeting pre-V7 is crazy
21:10:55 <ehird> end runcom = end running command, duh
21:11:07 <ais523> I just got kill to kill itself
21:11:15 <ais523> by guessing what process number it'd be allocated
21:11:19 <ehird> ais523: oi, help me compile simh :-P
21:11:37 <ais523> that's all I needed to do
21:11:52 <ehird> what's it supposed to be
21:12:01 <ais523> ehird: what OS are you on?
21:12:02 <AnMaster> since sometimes that stuff is in libc
21:12:37 <ehird> ifneq (,$(findstring darwin,$(OSTYPE)))
21:12:38 <ehird> OS_CCDEFS = -D_GNU_SOURCE
21:12:38 <ehird> OS_CCDEFS = -lrt -lm -D_GNU_SOURCE
21:12:39 <ais523> (according to the docs, you need that export command on OSX)
21:12:42 <AnMaster> ehird, it is for "real time" stuff. like clock_gettime() and other high res and/or low latency interfaces
21:12:45 <ehird> too bad it never sets OSTYPE
21:12:49 * ehird sets OSTYPE=darwin
21:13:00 <ehird> make OSTYPE=darwin did it
21:13:13 <AnMaster> ehird, was it mentioned in the readme?
21:13:25 <ehird> i didn't bother reading it, this package looks really crufty :P
21:13:29 <ehird> or rather, compatible, i guess
21:13:44 <ehird> "0readme_38.txt" isn't exactly hope-inspiring
21:13:51 <AnMaster> ehird, it could have used autotools. You wouldn't have needed to check then.
21:14:02 <ehird> It could also have done it entirely differently.
21:14:07 <ehird> False dichotomy heyoooooooo
21:14:48 <ais523> ehird: it's version 3.8
21:14:54 <ais523> and the 0 is to sort it to the start of the list
21:16:05 * ehird reads the output of "help" and goes "._."
21:16:17 <ehird> at something unixdiskname.dsk is what I need to do first, I think
21:16:34 <AnMaster> <ehird> False dichotomy heyoooooooo <-- of course. I was joking...
21:16:54 <ehird> Can you start doing more funny jokes? :P
21:17:04 <ehird> ais523: what're the commands you need?
21:17:16 <AnMaster> ehird, no. That would be breech of contract.
21:17:16 <ais523> ehird: http://simh.trailing-edge.com/pdf/simh_swre.pdf
21:17:30 <ehird> ais523: *look of disapproval*
21:17:52 <ehird> also, http://imgur.com/5PUVF.jpg
21:18:04 <ehird> damn this pdf is loading slowly
21:18:13 <ehird> hey safari, why'd you gotta crash like dat
21:18:14 <ais523> for UNIX v7, where \ represents newline, it's set cpu u18 \ set rl0 RL02 \ att rl0 unix_v7_rl.dsk \ boot rl0 \ @boot \ : rl(0,0)rl2unix
21:18:29 <ais523> where the @ and : are prompts
21:18:47 <ehird> I'm doing BIN/pdp11
21:19:02 <ehird> I'll just skip the cpu line
21:19:08 <ehird> I guess calling pdp11 handles that
21:19:50 <ehird> And besides, isn't that for the main simh binary? to select pdp11?
21:20:03 <ais523> ehird: no, that's for the pdp11 binary to select what sort of pdp11
21:20:10 <ais523> try cding to BIN and then trying again, as it works for me
21:20:42 <ehird> Still doesn't work, and cpu isn't listed in help.
21:20:46 <ehird> What, exactly, are you calling?
21:21:49 * ais523 wonders how to copy files onto the filesystem ther
21:22:14 <ehird> sim> att rl0 unix_v5_rk.dsk
21:22:18 -!- Gracenotes has joined.
21:22:18 <ehird> So much for : being a prompt
21:22:33 <ais523> oh, the instructions are different for v5
21:22:37 <ais523> type unix at the @ prompt
21:22:58 <ais523> then give the username as root, no password
21:22:58 <ehird> Any other instructions different?
21:23:00 <ehird> Like the cpu line?
21:23:25 <ais523> the cpu line's the same, but you're supposed to use rk and rk0 not rl and rl0
21:23:35 <ehird> Would explain the filenames
21:24:03 <ais523> oh, you don't need that set line at all
21:24:32 <ais523> set cpu u18 \ att rk0 unix_v5_rk.dsk \ boot rk \ @unix \ login: root
21:24:59 <ehird> needs moar backspace
21:25:08 <ehird> heh, ^H backspaces on screen but not in reality
21:25:19 <ehird> sweet, the kernel is actually called /unix
21:25:35 <ais523> ehird: changes to the filesystem persist
21:25:43 <ehird> i copied to pristine.dsk
21:25:52 <ais523> I'm keeping the originals in the .zip files
21:26:06 <ehird> ha! /usr/bin actually has files owned by the user bin
21:26:08 <ehird> since /usr = /home
21:26:20 <ehird> so shut your face with your V7 crap :(
21:26:36 <ehird> V5 has the best cc ever, so cryptic
21:26:56 <ehird> haha, and i still have an a.out
21:27:12 <ehird> oh, if you hit backspace enter, it cancels hte command
21:27:55 <ais523> oh, there isn't a way to kill INIT, it seems
21:28:05 <ehird> f: 0 +??^??~??[??J[R??S? ????? R? ?
21:28:12 <ais523> although if you send it SIGHUP, it drops to single-user mode
21:28:13 <ehird> Interesting use of /etc.
21:28:30 <ais523> ehird: this is before the FHS was invented, I think
21:28:40 <ehird> The FHS is Linuxcrap.
21:28:44 <ehird> Interesting is in a good way.
21:28:44 <ais523> also, that process 0 looks suspicious, but I'll chalk it up to a simulator hiccup
21:29:10 <pikhq> The FHS has one good thing about it: it is *a* standard.
21:29:26 <pikhq> However, not everyone supports said standard, so that doesn't do you much good. :P
21:29:38 <ehird> Standards are overrated
21:29:42 <ais523> this ps seems to be broken
21:29:49 <ais523> it prints "No namelist" regardless of what arguments you give it
21:29:57 <ehird> /etc/mtab: non existent
21:30:42 <ais523> I think these systems were designed to be turned off by pressing the off switch
21:30:59 <ehird> what number is hup again?
21:31:20 <ehird> okay, so that's single user mode; nothing happened
21:31:27 <ehird> and init is still there
21:31:34 <ehird> good practice, you know
21:31:46 -!- fax has quit ("Leaving").
21:31:52 * ais523 wonders what filesystem this is
21:32:30 * ehird notes: /etc/umount
21:32:34 <ehird> may be useful for shutting down
21:32:44 <ehird> obviously halting won't happen, but I think I can get rid of the unix
21:33:04 <pikhq> ehird: Playing with UNIX v5?
21:33:11 <ais523> haha, the v7 one comes with some mail in the mailbox
21:33:19 <ais523> that says "Secret mail has arrived."
21:33:30 <ais523> (you can control-D the single user mode to get multiple-user mode)
21:33:45 <ais523> (and root's password is root; it was the second password I tried)
21:33:59 <ehird> ain't no disks therre...
21:34:09 <pikhq> ehird: I must admit, I'm curious: is it possible to get any vaguely modern software working on there?
21:34:15 <ehird> From root Fri Mar 21 12:15:23 1975
21:34:21 <ais523> pikhq: we're planning to get C-INTERCAL working on there
21:34:24 <ehird> pikhq: well, ais523 is working on V7 (not SysV) and C-INTERCAL
21:34:28 <ehird> I am not so insane.
21:34:40 <ais523> anyone have the source code for uudecode handy?
21:34:44 <pikhq> (something simple, like, oh, modern PCC?)
21:35:02 <ehird> huh, /usr/c has a bunch of source and binaries
21:35:16 <ehird> pikhq: Hey now, with V7 you can have ORIGINAL pcc!
21:35:21 <ehird> And with V5? Original authentic cc, bitch.
21:35:22 <ais523> ah, http://www.nr.com/utils/uudecode.c.txt
21:35:29 <ais523> with a copyright date of 1983
21:35:32 <ais523> this looks suitably old
21:35:53 <ehird> no return type declarations
21:35:57 <ehird> think you'll be fine!
21:36:09 <pikhq> ehird: Modern PCC is "original". Just maintained. :P
21:36:21 <ehird> pcc has been updated for decades
21:36:30 * ais523 uses cat to transfer the source of uudecode
21:36:43 <ehird> anyone want to guess where the disk device is?
21:36:48 <ais523> wow, this emulation is slo
21:36:53 <ais523> probably about original speed
21:36:58 <pikhq> You may actually be able to build some GNU programs on there.
21:36:59 <ehird> heh, /usr/sys has headers in it
21:37:02 <ehird> ais523: faster, i'm sure
21:37:07 <ehird> pikhq: But I won't. :P
21:37:09 <ais523> I'm using /usr/root as my home directory
21:37:24 <ais523> ehird: cat's catting so slowly I can read the individual characters as they arrive
21:37:30 <pikhq> (at least some of them have shockingly ugly code for the sake of being able to build on K&R C compilers)
21:37:32 <ehird> i know this because your mailbox goes there
21:37:34 <ais523> ehird: yes, but that's a really fugly location to use
21:37:35 <AnMaster> ais523, hm those were warnings not errors. And a real mac didn't crash
21:37:42 <ais523> AnMaster: you tested on a real mac?
21:37:54 <pikhq> Though I suspect that's primarily GCC these days.
21:37:56 <AnMaster> ais523, yes an old first model ibook
21:37:57 <ehird> I keep mistaking this for DOS because it's such a pain to use and using dir(1)...
21:38:15 <ehird> the fact that it's chdir, not cd, doesn't help
21:38:20 <AnMaster> ais523, which has a very lound whining harddrive (was less loud when it was new)
21:38:25 * ehird writes some code with ED!
21:38:29 <ehird> Ed! Ed is the standard editor!
21:38:30 <pikhq> Which I doubt could build *on* a v5 machine -- nowhere near enough RAM.
21:38:40 <AnMaster> ais523, flat battery, glitchy power connector
21:38:43 <ais523> wow, this program seems to predate the # key
21:38:45 <AnMaster> well guess why I prefer emulator
21:38:57 <ais523> what I mean is, cat ignored all #s in my input
21:39:00 <ais523> some sort of emulator thing?
21:39:06 <ehird> ignores all special chars
21:39:12 <ehird> probably emulator thing
21:39:16 <ehird> I mean, the prompt IS #...
21:39:23 <AnMaster> ais523, "fatal error: Unable to open ick_lose.h"?
21:39:29 <ais523> # is obviously the backspace character
21:39:36 <ais523> you could set it to anything you want back then, after all
21:39:45 <ais523> AnMaster: where is ick_lose.h?
21:40:01 <ais523> ehird: I transferred the file by catting
21:40:15 <ais523> ugh, this thing predates vi
21:40:25 <ehird> unix ignored it even after it was invented
21:40:26 <ehird> ais523: just use ed
21:40:34 <ais523> ok, I'll have to remember how ed works now...
21:40:52 <ais523> "Ed is the standard text editor."
21:40:52 <ehird> # cc hello.c /lib/crt0.o
21:40:52 <ehird> Multiply defined: /lib/crt0.o;savr5
21:40:58 <ehird> ais523: use a to insert
21:41:00 <ehird> . to stop inserting
21:41:18 <ehird> I think you can do +1 and -1 to move around
21:41:20 <ehird> that should do you
21:41:24 <ais523> and s/// works too, doesn't it/
21:41:36 <ais523> still, I wonder how to type a literal # character
21:41:51 <ais523> actually having a legit reason to use trigraphs would amaze me, but why not?
21:41:52 <ehird> # cc hello.c /lib/libca.##.a
21:41:52 <ehird> I guess it really does predate puts
21:42:00 <ehird> I love the short names of the libs
21:42:05 <ehird> -la -lc -lf -ly? fuck yeah!
21:42:35 <ehird> woot, it has printf
21:42:49 <ehird> printf("hello world\n");
21:43:06 <ehird> (sorry for the flood, I'm just happy)
21:43:08 <ehird> I especially like . being in PATH
21:43:14 <ehird> Back then a security flaw was, uh, something that it doesn't mean today
21:43:52 -!- immibis has joined.
21:43:59 <ehird> hmm, it seems to ignore $
21:44:00 <ais523> didn't Stallman specifically not add a wheel group to GNU su on the basis that he thought that people should have a chance to wrest control of a computer away from its current admins by guessing the root password?
21:44:17 <ehird> he also had no password on unix for years
21:44:26 <ais523> did that computer allow remote logins/
21:44:37 <ehird> probably once telnet was invented
21:44:40 <ehird> he openly invited people to use his account
21:44:54 <pikhq> For ages, the easiest way to get online was to dial into the AI lab at MIT and log in as RMS.
21:45:07 <ehird> oh, of course; telnet is modern
21:45:11 <ehird> phone lines fuck yeah!
21:45:21 <ehird> I imagine many more people used the RMS account without knowing what "RMS" meant
21:45:24 <ais523> uudecode.c:40: External definition syntax
21:45:36 <ehird> also, use cc, not pcc
21:45:38 <ehird> it's even more cryptic
21:45:41 <ehird> I'd bet RMS got backronymmed
21:45:49 <ehird> Remote Management System
21:45:54 <ais523> oh, it doesn't like my trigraph
21:46:04 <pikhq> ... You have *trigraphs*?
21:46:16 <ais523> pikhq: I trigraphed the program I was sending because the # character was being ignored
21:46:16 <ehird> someone backronym RMS into something resembling "open-access"
21:46:26 <ehird> remote m'login sir? :P
21:46:34 <ehird> ais523: just write a c program that prints out #
21:47:00 <ais523> ooh, I could probably write a c program that did s/??=/#/
21:47:10 <pikhq> Either that or a C99 preprocessor.
21:47:53 <AnMaster> ais523, I didn't run oil, but now I have something in oilout00.c on mac
21:48:14 <AnMaster> ais523, what is the raise(SIGSEGV) stuff in it?
21:48:26 <ais523> backwards compatibility
21:49:02 <ais523> as in, that always used to segfault
21:49:10 <ais523> and there was no reason to change the behaviour when we fixed the actual bug
21:49:26 <ehird> '^X' isn't accepted
21:50:06 <ais523> ehird: kill character, probably
21:50:11 <ais523> that deletes the whole line
21:50:48 <ehird> no sed aaaaaaaaaaa
21:51:53 <ehird> printf("%d\n",num2);
21:51:59 <ehird> 5: Lvalue required
21:52:07 <ehird> you need "auto num2;" in a function, don't you?
21:52:37 <AnMaster> <ehird> no sed aaaaaaaaaaa <-- use ed
21:53:15 <ais523> don't, you'll probably run out of registers
21:53:17 <ehird> ais523: /usr/c is the c compiler sources
21:53:22 <ais523> C compilers were rather literal back then
21:53:22 <Deewiant> Or even "static" would work there
21:53:22 <ehird> it's... upsettingly moddern, the code
21:53:26 <ehird> I mean, not olde times at all, really
21:53:32 <ehird> apart from its simplicity
21:53:42 <AnMaster> * ais523 stty erase '^X' <-- what does that mean
21:53:52 <ais523> uudecode.c:98: void undefined; func. main
21:53:53 <ehird> set erase to control-x
21:54:09 <ehird> ais523: ed, s/void//g :-D
21:54:14 <ehird> I think that does all lines, maybe not
21:54:23 <ais523> this ed doesn't like s///
21:54:41 <ehird> dunno how to do it for every line
21:55:00 <ais523> ehird: you deleted the whole line
21:55:02 <AnMaster> ais523, okay oil seems to require input file to use \r.
21:55:14 <ehird> ais523: they should have had types on another line!
21:55:21 <ehird> everyone knows the One True Declaration style looks like
21:55:26 <ehird> main(int argc, char **argv) {
21:55:36 <ehird> (—recent convert from straight k&r :P)
21:55:43 <ehird> (Though straight k&r has *no* return types.)
21:55:49 <ehird> AnMaster: it's easy to munge into k&r c, though
21:55:59 <ehird> remove the type decl line, and delete one word after ( and ,
21:55:59 -!- fax has joined.
21:56:04 <ehird> (who cares about types)
21:56:12 <ais523> yay, finally compiled uudecode
21:56:43 <AnMaster> ais523, oil works fine of the input file uses \®
21:56:54 <ehird> ais523: does it workk?
21:56:58 <ehird> if it does, I'll be amazed
21:57:00 <ais523> ehird: not sure, haven't tried it yet
21:57:03 <ehird> uudecode uses quite some characters!
21:57:08 <ehird> I'd stick to alphanumericals
21:57:08 * ais523 finds a small file to test with
21:57:16 <ehird> easy to write your own converters for that
21:57:35 <ehird> assign one letter to "read two letters and combine"
21:57:43 <ehird> (recursive; we can handle one or two levels of recursion)
21:57:52 <ehird> combine as in, 36-bitwise
21:58:18 <ais523> it almost worked, except it deleted the last character of the filename
21:58:26 <ehird> and then the converter just stuffs ascii into that place
21:58:28 <ehird> using the additional thingy
21:58:38 <ehird> like a 30 line decoder, and a 40 line encoder
21:58:43 <ais523> oh, there was an @ in there
21:58:57 <AnMaster> ais523, conclusion is that mac doesn't support the b binary mode for fopen
21:59:10 <AnMaster> which means you always get the \r \n swap with fopen
21:59:18 <ais523> AnMaster: or that I didn't use it in oil.y
21:59:19 <AnMaster> probably you need some other mac specific interface for binary
22:00:25 <AnMaster> ais523, I can't find *any* fopen in oil.y. And freopen only for stdout to a file
22:01:17 <ais523> oh, if yacc's doing it automatically
22:01:22 <ais523> then it's probably /it/ opening in text mode
22:01:45 <ehird> binary mode is the stupidest thing ever
22:01:54 <ehird> "Like... *actually* open this file."
22:02:11 <ehird> "When I say fopen, as in open this file and give me this contents, right, this flag means open this file and ACTUALLY GIVE ME THE CONTENTS."
22:02:20 <ais523> ehird: oh, you mean the fact it's needed is stupid, rather than using it is stupid
22:02:33 <AnMaster> ehird, ais523 oil reads on stdin, and no fopen and generated freopen in oil-oil.c
22:02:41 <AnMaster> so no yacc isn't doing anything automatically
22:02:47 <ais523> oh, stdin's always in text mode
22:02:52 <ehird> immibis: Hello, 12-year-old AOLer.
22:02:56 <ehird> You found the $ key.
22:03:02 <ehird> Why not use it to insult a money-grabbing corporation?
22:03:06 <ehird> You know... like all of them.
22:03:25 <immibis> i'd be really surprised if 203-97-111-43.cable.telstraclear.net was an AOL address...
22:03:26 <ehird> It's the stupidest angle of attack you could possibly mount on Microsoft stuffed into obnoxious leetspeak. Stunning.
22:04:43 <ehird> I'm doing pretty well with this trackball, considering how long it takes anyone to be proficient with a mouse.
22:04:52 <ais523> test.t.Z: compressed with 16 bits, can only handle 12 bits
22:05:58 <ais523> yay, this version of compress has an option to make it use legacy 12-bit behaviour
22:06:38 * ais523 vaguely wonders how many years transferring the entire C-INTERCAL distribution like this would take
22:07:05 <ais523> -rw-r--r-- 1 ais523 ais523 1759163 2009-11-13 22:00 ick-0.-2.0.29.pax.Z
22:07:29 <ehird> I was about to say.
22:08:00 <ais523> entering files using cat manages a few bytes per second
22:15:48 <ehird> hmm, I guess Go is why Russ Cox has been so silent lately
22:16:14 -!- ehird has set topic: GO IS A DIVISIVE ISSUE IN THIS CHANNEL, also $pun | http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D.
22:17:09 <ehird> pcc is more likely to compile ick, but cc is far cooler
22:17:12 <ehird> and far harder to understand
22:18:28 <AnMaster> ais523, odd thing: :: is /../ but ::: is /../../ I would have expected that to require four :
22:24:21 <AnMaster> ais523, so on a real mac now bin2c, oil and convickt builds. Note that the clc-charset thingy make sheepshaver crash
22:24:44 <AnMaster> oh and the bin2c generated files are generated. Same goes for the oil generated files
22:24:49 <ais523> I wonder why? messing with binary files?
22:25:19 <AnMaster> ais523, clc-charset file? well it crashes compiling that file
22:25:36 <AnMaster> after printing some of the warnings about suspect assignment in if.
22:25:50 <AnMaster> turning off warnings doesn't help
22:26:28 <ais523> why would turning off warnings help?
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22:26:33 <AnMaster> ais523, oh on a real mac those weird symbols are easy to type
22:26:34 <ais523> looking at the warnings might work better
22:27:06 <AnMaster> ais523, 1) too fast crash to see them, thought maybe the fact that printing the warnings made the window scroll could cause a crash
22:27:36 <AnMaster> 2) seeing the warnings on a real mac makes it possible to see that they are the same in sheepshaver. On the real mac they are all about doing = instead of == inside if
22:27:55 <AnMaster> ais523, basically: emulator bug
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22:49:19 <SimonRC> what is this tiny unix system that you are talking about?
22:50:29 <SimonRC> or maybe it is ancient as well as tiny
22:50:41 <SimonRC> ehird is the one using it, right?
22:50:58 <ehird> V7 and V5, him and me respectively.
22:51:04 <ehird> it's tiny only because it is ancient.
22:52:29 <ehird> Just... PDP-11 tiny.
22:52:39 <SimonRC> emulated or on an extra computer?
22:52:45 <ehird> Mainline Unix, straight from ma bell.
22:52:51 <ehird> SimonRC: neither of us have a pdp-11, no :P
22:53:26 <ehird> This is 1970s stuff.
22:54:47 <ehird> Might I just say that Go's make-based build system is wonderfully simple?
22:54:50 <ehird> include $(GOROOT)/src/Make.$(GOARCH)
22:54:50 <ehird> include $(GOROOT)/src/Make.cmd
22:55:00 <ehird> Can substitute pkg for cmd to make a library, iirc.
22:55:01 <Deewiant> Recursive make considered harmful
22:55:13 <ehird> And, of course, $(GOARCH) for amd64/386/arm/whatever to cross-compile.
22:55:19 <ehird> That's good, because it's not recursive make.
22:55:24 <ehird> I'm talking about the system for Go progarms.
22:55:29 <ehird> Not the toolchain.
22:55:44 <ehird> (And really, recursive make is useful if you just want a lazy "okay fucking build everything plz".)
22:56:18 <ehird> Oh, and it has the nice property that cross-compiling works even with that minimal file...
22:56:23 <ehird> "make GOARCH=386" etc.
22:57:18 <ehird> Rather bruteforce approach:
22:57:19 <ehird> rm -f *.[568vq] hello
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23:01:12 <ehird> That's your editor's fault.
23:01:45 <AnMaster> ehird, that was sarcasm. Because I have seen way too many makefiles do that
23:01:47 * ehird decides that an RPN calculator is the best way to play around with Go
23:01:58 <ehird> AnMaster: Well it's funny, now that I know it's sarcasm.
23:02:04 <ehird> Which is an improvement in some sense :P
23:02:22 <ehird> Things that aren't funny even when explained.
23:02:40 <ehird> gorpn: pronounced "gorpn".
23:02:48 <ehird> Fnord xyzzy gorpn quux.
23:03:07 <ehird> i.e. an RPN calculator written in Go.
23:03:11 <ehird> My creativity KNOWS NO BOUNDS.
23:03:18 <ehird> After that it'll be an implementation of an esolang, probably.
23:03:21 <AnMaster> ehird, what did Gregor say about Go? I forgot
23:03:27 <ehird> SimonRC: Don't feel like binding ncurses
23:03:35 <ehird> AnMaster: "IT'S HORRIBLE AND I HATE HOW THEY NAMED THE COMPILERS AND THE TOOLCHAIN SUCKS"
23:03:40 <ehird> AnMaster: No justification was given.
23:03:44 <AnMaster> ehird, write a text adventure!
23:03:52 <ehird> Oh, and something about the syntax being acceptable but the semantics being nonsensical? I don't even remember.
23:03:53 <AnMaster> ehird, I didn't read it too closely
23:03:58 <ehird> I think Gregor was PMSing.
23:04:01 <mycroftiv> im playing around with go by working with it in acme on a plan 9 cpu server that im drawterming to, its the ultimate Rob Pike fanboy experience
23:04:12 <ehird> Males can in fact do that when presented with something sufficiently repulsive to them!
23:04:15 <ehird> That's a scientific fact.
23:04:35 <AnMaster> mycroftiv, rob pike fanboy experience? Do I even want to know what that is
23:04:49 <ehird> It's like an orgasm, but composed of love for Rob Pike.
23:04:57 -!- Pthing has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
23:05:08 <AnMaster> ehird, how do you fell about a makefile using ð instead of \ ?
23:05:16 <ehird> (Rob Pike is one of the old guard Unix guys, huge force in Plan 9 development, wrote acme for instance, blah blah)
23:05:24 <SimonRC> AnMaster: what is that char supposed to be?
23:05:26 <ehird> AnMaster: Hurr I am Mac and I don't do charsets
23:05:30 <ehird> SimonRC: icelandic d :-P
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23:05:54 <AnMaster> ehird, you have broken unicode atm? Or was that a joke about MPW makefiles (because you already seen them?)
23:05:57 <mycroftiv> yeah seeing Ken Thompson Rob Pike and Russ Cox working together on this is definitely the Revenge of Plan 9 crew, weve all been wondering what they were up to
23:06:12 <AnMaster> SimonRC, look at http://omploader.org/vMnJoag
23:06:16 <ehird> Rob Pike supports software patents and that makes me sad
23:06:28 <AnMaster> ehird, then what is the difference between one of those old-style s and two of them?
23:06:31 <ehird> But he's so cool that it FADES INTO IRRELEVANCE
23:06:34 <AnMaster> I have been unable to find proper docs
23:06:43 <AnMaster> so I have been looking at examples
23:07:07 <AnMaster> ehird, now what was the diff in normal make
23:07:12 <SimonRC> AnMaster: that looks like the hack some languages used to fit their semi-latin chars into 7 bits
23:07:29 <AnMaster> SimonRC, charset would be MacRoman
23:07:38 <SimonRC> they tended to replace {|}[\] or whatever
23:07:47 <AnMaster> SimonRC, {} is used there too. See
23:07:58 <mycroftiv> well, a lot of the old guard has kind of had to eat crow on their early positions on free software and linux, ken thompson was pretty negative about the linux kernel in interviews in the 90s
23:08:52 <ehird> mycroftiv: well, the linux kernel is pretty shit to be honest.
23:09:11 <ehird> and free software is just another copyright-centered movement, except with a really crazy guy at the helm
23:09:14 <AnMaster> ehird, anyway I'm pretty sure that I can type \ on it *tries*
23:09:15 <SimonRC> mycroftiv: so he doesn;t dislike it as much now?
23:09:43 <ehird> The greatest lie of the free software movement was claiming it used copyright to subvert copyright. It did no such thing; it is exactly in the spirit of copyright law and would fail horribly without it...
23:09:51 <AnMaster> ehird, yes I can. AltGr-Shift-7
23:10:11 <mycroftiv> well, being employed by google and having his work be focused on it means that as a practical matter, i doubt he would make the same comments - a few years ago in an interview he basically took it all back and said that he thought linux was OK because it got the job done
23:10:13 <immibis> try using the backslash key?
23:10:31 <AnMaster> immibis, on a classic mac yes. Using Swedish keyboard layout
23:10:36 <SimonRC> I thought the point of FS was to stop people having programs they can't fix? I recall RMS telling a story about a printer driver with a bug, and being angry he didn't have thhe sourec to fix it and donate a patch.
23:10:55 <AnMaster> at least on linux/pc with Swedish keyboard it is just AltGr-+
23:11:16 <ehird> fmt.Printf("%s\n", os.Stdin)
23:11:18 <ehird> %s(*os.File=&{0 /dev/stdin <nil> 0})
23:11:33 <ehird> erm, maybe that %s is being iinterpreted literally
23:12:09 <ehird> weird stringification
23:12:31 <AnMaster> ehird, maybe that is what Gregor was talking about
23:17:37 <ehird> [23:10] SimonRC: I thought the point of FS was to stop people having programs they can't fix? I recall RMS telling a story about a printer driver with a bug, and being angry he didn't have thhe sourec to fix it and donate a patch.
23:17:38 <ehird> That was its progenitor.
23:17:55 <ehird> Stallman's method, however, was nothing short of perverse: enforcing a bewildering array of restrictions to get to the paltry grants.
23:18:31 <ehird> Taking dominion of the infinite space of some information is exactly what copyright is intended for. The GPL user stands guard, slaying anyone who dares do what he was not told he could do.
23:18:50 <ehird> That's not subverting copyright, that's being its BFF.
23:19:08 <Gregor> Good lord, is this channel having simultaneous licensing and language wars?
23:19:27 <ehird> (There *is* a way to subvert copyright by granting all rights, thus meaning that anyone who receives a copy can know that all the author can do is sit there chillin'.)
23:19:36 <ehird> Gregor: It is possible to talk about an issue without having a flamewar.
23:19:45 <ehird> And, in fact, we haven't been warring about Go at all.
23:19:51 <mycroftiv> i dont think anyone is taking the bait to rise up and defend the gpl, though I certainly can mentally simulate what Eben Moglen etc would have to say
23:20:13 <ehird> Heck, even the BSD and MIT licenses don't achieve it.
23:20:28 <mycroftiv> if i can talk to an imaginary Richard Stallman in my head, and hear what he has to say, does that mean i have a cognitive subsystem that passes the stallman turing test?
23:20:31 <ehird> There's still that one restriction (include this notice), and so the legal guardian is as primed as ever in the space-of-concepts.
23:20:40 <Gregor> ehird: You can remove that.
23:20:41 <ehird> It makes no difference how many; only whether there are any.
23:20:44 <Gregor> ehird: I have on occasion :P
23:20:48 <ehird> Gregor: Then it isn't the BSD/MIT license, duh.
23:21:07 <ehird> I was mentioning the BSD/MIT license...
23:21:29 <ehird> The license text I settled on as the simplest, solid way to grant all rights for any given work (not just software) is, lemme find it...
23:21:50 <Gregor> "No rights reserved." :P
23:21:52 <ehird> Permission is granted to copy, modify and distribute this work.
23:21:52 <ehird> THERE IS NO WARRANTY.
23:21:59 <ehird> Gregor: Public domain is... shaky.
23:22:18 <Gregor> I like "THERE IS NO WARRANTY"
23:22:20 <ehird> Saying "Public domain, or if you prefer see LICENSE" is the best of both worlds.
23:22:26 <Gregor> In proper no-warranty style ALL CAPS.
23:22:39 <ehird> Gregor: JUST IN CASE IT GOT DROWNED OUT IN THOSE FEW WORDS ABOVE IT
23:23:13 <ehird> Some software licenses actually grant the permission to use the software.
23:23:20 <ehird> Yeah, uh, I don't think we need your permission, dude.
23:23:41 <ehird> licenses are for distribution anyway...
23:23:47 <ehird> maybe if it was an EULA :P
23:24:30 <mycroftiv> as a matter of fact, i think the right to use does have to be explicity granted
23:24:38 <mycroftiv> at least in usa law under current interpretation
23:24:46 <Gregor> USA law is a giant suckfest.
23:24:50 <Gregor> And not the good kind.
23:24:54 <ehird> you can't do that with a license, though
23:25:01 <ehird> licenses simply don't apply to the situation of usage, no?
23:25:02 <Gregor> But anyway, that's just because Apple has redefined using as a kind of copying.
23:25:07 <ehird> otherwise they'd be EULAs
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23:28:30 <mycroftiv> see, i thought that loading software from physical media into computer memory *is* a copyvio unless you are explicitly granted the right to do so as a necessary precondition of using it
23:28:33 <Gregor> Which is to say, it should cover only copying.
23:28:36 <ehird> Copyright really ought to be /dev/null.
23:28:43 <ehird> Which is to say, it should die a painful death.
23:28:51 <ehird> Anyway, I left out "use" because I specifically made it usable for non-software works.
23:30:43 <AnMaster> ehird, why is public domain "shaky"? I never understood what the issue would be...
23:31:07 <ehird> Because most laws of copyright don't let you release the copyright of your work until you've been dead for some years.
23:31:11 <Gregor> It's not well-defined what process is necessary to declare something as being in the public domain.
23:31:28 <mycroftiv> i dont think the concept of public domain exists or has very similar ;meaning between different countries, whereas copyright is more harmonized due to treaties
23:31:56 <ehird> "Dual-copyrighting" as "public domain or if you want it can be copyrighted under license-that-grants-permission-to-everything" is the best solution.
23:32:00 <ehird> AnMaster: Because they simply don't grant you the right.
23:32:09 <ehird> They say "If someone makes a work it's copyrighted until 80 years after their death."
23:32:21 <ehird> And at no point do they say "Oh, and the creator can release the copyright to their work, btw."
23:32:47 <mycroftiv> by the way, in terms of crazy copyright news, anyone hear a few months ago about egypt attempting to claim copyright on the pyramids and the sphinx?
23:33:41 <Gregor> Have the "authors" been dead for OVER NINE-THOUSAAAAAAAND years?
23:33:56 <mycroftiv> ok, my time sense is off - it was two years ago, heres a 'reputable source' news link http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7160057.stm
23:34:27 <ehird> i'm pretty sure mycroftiv exists in a realm outside of time
23:34:30 <ehird> either that or he's stoned 24/7
23:35:10 <mycroftiv> using Plan 9 alters brain chemistry as much or more than any merely physical molecule
23:35:25 <ehird> i very much doubt that
23:35:57 * Sgeo actually feels safe opening links directly from XChat now
23:36:12 <Sgeo> When I used Firefox, if I tried that, XChat would freeze for some time
23:36:14 <ehird> So, using a trackball, I think my thumb is now a contortionist.
23:36:17 <ehird> That's some exercise.
23:36:24 <Sgeo> I guess until FIrefox was able to process and start loading it
23:36:59 <Gregor> ehird: I misread that as "cartoonist"
23:37:31 <ehird> mycroftiv: haha, my linux distro will confuse you plan 9 weenies — "/bin/8g foo.go? What kind of language is g?"
23:38:11 <Ilari> Er... Isn't stuff like that supposed to be in /usr/bin?
23:38:25 <AnMaster> ehird, and what is a "contortionist"
23:38:27 <mycroftiv> in plan 9 everything gets union bound to /bin
23:38:33 <ehird> http://www.justfuckinggoogleit.com/
23:38:39 <ehird> Ilari: /usr is the most retarded idea ever
23:38:50 <AnMaster> ehird, I'm on a phone atm. To do so I would have to close the irc client
23:38:53 <ehird> well not in the day when it was invented (i'm talking about non-/home-style usr)
23:39:09 <ehird> but nowadays it just adds needless hierarchy cruft.
23:39:16 <ehird> thus why everything goes in /bin in mine
23:39:19 <ehird> (including /bin/linux)
23:39:28 <AnMaster> ehird, so you still refuse to explain it then?
23:39:35 <ehird> AnMaster: it's someone who's bendy.
23:39:42 <ehird> and it's not refusing, it's not explaining it
23:39:50 <ehird> you can't cause someone to do an active thing (refuse) merely by prompting them
23:40:15 * Sgeo can read DIlbert from the beginning!
23:40:21 <Sgeo> (Or at least, the first published one)
23:40:53 <Sgeo> Ok, all of these I read already
23:41:07 <Sgeo> What's the one where Dilbert dies? What's the one where Dogbert dies?
23:41:33 <Sgeo> The dates of the dilbert strips
23:41:37 <Ilari> AFAIK, /usr is useful since it contains most of the program executables and data. Idea is that /usr would be put on different filesystem.
23:42:04 <Gregor> But nobody actually does that :)
23:42:22 <ehird> Ilari: What Gregor said :P
23:42:39 <Sgeo> http://www.dilbert.com/fast/1995-10-16/ The start of the Dogbert dies arc
23:43:34 <AnMaster> <Gregor> But nobody actually does that :) <-- I do
23:44:14 <AnMaster> /opt being a symlink to /usr/opt
23:44:48 <SimonRC> http://www.dilbert.com/fast/1995-10-22/ is one of my all-time favourites IIRC
23:45:35 <Sgeo> I'm going to have to get rid of the instinct to simply copy the URL
23:45:56 <SimonRC> actually, I suspect I have a book with that time period in it, which is why many of them looked familiar
23:46:07 <ehird> Two months after I was born, that latter one.
23:46:10 <Sgeo> SimonRC, I think I do, to
23:46:26 <SimonRC> ehird: argh you bloody young people that are almost overtaking me in skills
23:46:42 <ehird> SimonRC: Thanks for the compliment?
23:46:51 <ehird> (psst. most kids are fucking dumb)
23:47:29 <SimonRC> except when you come out with jewels like not knowing htere were multiple moon landings
23:47:36 <ehird> THAT WAS A BRAINFART >_<
23:47:48 <ehird> Curse your accursed good memory
23:49:08 <Sgeo> Ooh, Chrome froze
23:49:14 <Sgeo> Hm, not for very long
23:53:46 <ehird> mycroftiv: the go tutorial has a cat... with a flag :-D
23:53:56 <ehird> okay, so it's just -n, which was in pre-cat-v, but still
23:55:49 * oerjan imagined a picture of a cat waving a flag
23:56:42 <ehird> "cat came back from Berkeley waving flags" —Rob Pike
23:59:19 <mycroftiv> rob pike did say though "the days of one tool per job are over, and the eulogy was written by perl" - still not sure exactly how he meant that, maybe just being realistic