< 1258156991 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: well, he's right < 1258157002 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :look at perl — it does everything in one bag < 1258157005 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no separated tools < 1258157077 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right, im just not sure if he meant that he was convinced by perl that was an OK approach, or if he was just bowing to the inevitable < 1258157139 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1258157156 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: aren't they identical to a cynic? < 1258157195 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure but i dont know where pike is exactly on the cynicism vs design purity continuum < 1258157258 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who knows. < 1258157261 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can be on both. < 1258157309 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycroftiv: liking go, btw? < 1258157310 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :being a purist certainly can lead to cynicism < 1258157330 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah very much, to me it seems obvious that its 'better' than c++ or java as an attempt to extend C < 1258157367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm most interested in it for three things: shiny new language, let's find a niche!; could this be better than C for applications programming?; could this be better than rc for the things rc is good for? < 1258157404 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the message passing/synchronization stuff between chans is really great, pretty similar to limbo in that regard < 1258157484 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of the ideas it has a similar to ones i've had but that required taking a stand on some issue of e.g. syntax or semantics as a tradeoff but one of little importance — solving all those for me in something with backing is great < 1258157496 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just as a sort of "shut the hell up and use this" < 1258157509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that iota shit though? hack hack HACK < 1258157535 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres still a lot of stuff in go i havent really assimilated yet < 1258157647 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my project is porting a linux client for a 9p fs i wrote < 1258157678 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ive mostly just been learning how to translate C basics < 1258157722 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Translation is always a bad idea. < 1258157726 0 :Rugxulo!n=chatzill@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258157734 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Grok the language, read the concepts of your previous program, and write a new one with the same concepts. < 1258157753 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, its nice to have a bit of instant gratification though < 1258157769 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Don't you have your C program already? < 1258157786 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in plan 9, i never ported it to *nix, although thats basically trivial < 1258157817 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION just download TinyRB (tiny Ruby clone), laughing at the irony of the 750k configure script < 1258157828 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :id been meaning to do it anyway, so doing it in go seemed like an ok two-birds-one-stone concept, it doesnt prevent me from doing better projects tomorrow or next week < 1258157880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Variables can be initialized just like constants but the initializer can be a general expression computed at run time.]] < 1258157880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :About fucking time! < 1258157888 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: So how's your 1 MB disk doing < 1258157901 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1258157906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, that's not irony. < 1258157913 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The main Ruby configure script is about that big too. < 1258157916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's not ironic. < 1258157921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'd be ironic if Ruby's configure was smaller. < 1258157949 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION doesn't have main Ruby onhand to check its configure size < 1258157963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's almost certainly larger < 1258157970 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if anyone here has read the source of ed. < 1258157971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :More support for stuff, you know, that stuff you like < 1258157973 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Like old things < 1258157974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: which ed < 1258157975 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if they upgrade to 2.64, it'll shrink a lot (shell functions) < 1258157986 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: the editor < 1258157996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Caldera Unix ed, modern SysV derivative ed, BSD ed, GNU ed, Heirloom ed, ...? < 1258158000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BusyBox ed? < 1258158036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders where to put GOROOT in his system design. Maybe /opt/go. < 1258158041 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(with GOBIN=/bin) < 1258158048 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe /lib/go... < 1258158054 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely wishes that there was a Firefox theme for Chrome < 1258158063 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(not /share/go, though.) < 1258158070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And not /bin/go. < 1258158087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo: Why? < 1258158091 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Chrome UI is wonderful. < 1258158101 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, dunno which ed < 1258158105 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nvm < 1258158111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: why did you ask? < 1258158143 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-64-146.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1258158146 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that I won't keep wondering if the Chrome UI is the reason I'm not doing any work for this project, because I'm not used to it < 1258158153 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, it's an insane thought, but still < 1258158154 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd heard it was quite OO, based on streams and stuff < 1258158162 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: weird < 1258158166 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I don't know which version I was reading about < 1258158179 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: leads to compact code apparently < 1258158200 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you mean by oo in this case < 1258158269 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC, each source or sink or filter of data had a couple of "methods" (function pointers) that specified how to read from or write to it < 1258158286 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't recall much more than that < 1258158331 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Autoconf 2.61, go figure < 1258158381 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, did you guys make any progress on ick? or AnMaster? < 1258158394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on pdp11 unix v7? < 1258158395 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION read the logs, didn't tell everything < 1258158397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was ais523 < 1258158400 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster is doing macos9 < 1258158404 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know < 1258158404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unix v7 hasn't been done yet < 1258158409 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think macos9 ran into a blocker for now < 1258158409 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, did it ever work? < 1258158419 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, yes some. Atm the emulator keeps crashing a lot. Works better on a real mac < 1258158426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, going to continue tomorrow, need sleep soon < 1258158441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, but several of the tools builds. Haven't got around to ick itself yet < 1258158451 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, you're way the heck over seas (different time zone), it's not very late here (6pm) < 1258158458 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good luck~ < 1258158459 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1258158484 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, ehird, I think I've told you before, Ardi's Exectuor is a (non-Mac ROM using) emulator < 1258158497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it sucks though < 1258158499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I'm afraid it won't build fully under sheepshaver. < 1258158523 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... < 1258158523 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/opt/go/src/cmd/goyacc < 1258158523 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/lib/go/src/cmd/goyacc < 1258158524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :here /lib wins, but in < 1258158524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/opt/go/lib/lib9.a < 1258158524 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/lib/go/lib/lib9.a < 1258158525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/opt wins for the lack of repetition < 1258158526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for basiliskII, I have been unable to do any sort of building with 68k at all < 1258158536 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/lib, though, has the advantage of meaning I don't need another dir in / (opt) < 1258158559 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, use some under /lib and some under /opt? < 1258158575 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, but why under /lib? That is for stuff like libc and other core stuff < 1258158585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/usr/lib for stuff after /usr is mounted < 1258158587 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it isn't, it's for libraries. < 1258158590 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There is no /usr. < 1258158598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh your distro? < 1258158601 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1258158608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just came to hate it. I liked it before < 1258158612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not any more < 1258158616 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't actually, you know — give a shit. < 1258158692 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, how much RAM does your real Mac have? < 1258158703 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you just doing this for Macs in general (e.g. emulated)? < 1258158710 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, 64 MB < 1258158727 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmm, might not be enough to run DOSBox ;-) < 1258158731 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, it's a first model ibook < 1258158737 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I wouldn't be interested in that < 1258158752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, it ran virtualpc before. Good question "how" < 1258158756 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, but Ick works there, so ... hey, I just figured it wasn't the totally worst idea ;-) < 1258158785 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, anyway my sheepshaver instance on my thinkpad has 512 MB allocated < 1258158815 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION really hates super duper long *nix commandlines when compiling ... < 1258158839 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1258158841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's autohell's fault. < 1258158850 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PACKAGE_TARNAME, PACKAGE_BUGREPORT, PACKAGE_VERSION, do those all have to be defined on the cmdline each time??? < 1258158868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, um they are in config.h < 1258158868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1258158869 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so ugly ... and they hate DOS (heh), is *that* irony?? < 1258158870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because make is shit. < 1258158876 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No it's not irony. < 1258158877 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster, apparently not ;-) < 1258158882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, what package? < 1258158886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for ick they are < 1258158887 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tiny Ruby < 1258158887 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Please look up the meaning of the word irony. Also, ;-) makes you look really annoying. < 1258158889 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aka, TinyRB < 1258158897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, well then it doesn't use config.h < 1258158901 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I am annoying, deal with it < 1258158908 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: no. < 1258158923 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, seriously ... I'm convinced now that you are some uber genius / child prodigy based upon your crazy knowledge but really young age < 1258158933 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, if you can find out how to build a shared library under MPW tell me < 1258158946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the age of 20 I will have conquered the world and my first move will be to outlaw DOS. < 1258158949 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unlikely, sorry < 1258158951 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ARE YOU SO SURE ABOUT THAT NOW < 1258158973 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did say "crazy knowledge" ;-) (crazy) < 1258158974 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... does sed have an insert? < 1258158976 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1258158977 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :other than s//foo/ < 1258158981 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1258158987 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is it :P < 1258158988 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sed is basically a fork of ed < 1258158990 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i\ < 1258159003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you have to use newlines? :/ < 1258159014 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, no < 1258159019 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so, but honestly I avoid i\ because some (old) seds don't handle it perfectly < 1258159031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ seq 1000000 | sed 'd;i a' < 1258159031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sed: 1: "d;i a": command i expects \ followed by text < 1258159032 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ seq 1000000 | sed 'd;i\a' < 1258159032 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sed: 1: "d;i\a": extra characters after \ at the end of i command < 1258159033 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(GNU sed is just very slow comparatively, even if superior) < 1258159036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*look of disapproval* < 1258159066 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which sed? < 1258159070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gnu sed < 1258159075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, oops < 1258159078 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that won't work cuz of d ofc < 1258159089 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read the Info doc then, it should give examples < 1258159139 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1258159192 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION waits for sed to do the gruelling task of doing one million replaces < 1258159197 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or seq to print out one million things, i guess < 1258159214 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sed works a line at a time, so it's fairly slow < 1258159217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't care how big the binaries are on disk... processing one million numbers like that with a regexp is NOT hard shit < 1258159224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this could be done in a second or two < 1258159233 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ed (traditionally) reads the whole file into memory, so it's not as efficient for large files but is probably faster < 1258159235 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is two thousand and fucking nine! < 1258159240 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay it finished < 1258159247 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and BTW < 1258159252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ wc -l gorpn.go < 1258159252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : 1000004 gorpn.go < 1258159255 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1,$ does replacement on every line (for ed) < 1258159257 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LET'S SEE HOW FAST YOU REALLY ARE, FEEBLE COMPILER < 1258159260 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes % is aliased to 1,$ too < 1258159287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, I can certainly notice THIS compile time :P < 1258159292 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not needed in sed as it always does one line at a time < 1258159306 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not fast? < 1258159319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's try 100,000 lines instead < 1258159328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: it can compile 100k codebases in seconds — it's *fast* < 1258159340 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know that, but you're saying it's not true in your current experience?? < 1258159344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but methinks 1 million junk lines as one unit... not practical < 1258159363 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't fault the compiler for this one, really :P < 1258159410 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah, TinyRB doesn't seem to build correctly, oh well < 1258159431 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not like regular Ruby is so huge either < 1258159438 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(comparatively) < 1258159454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, 1,$ is the same as , no? < 1258159473 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even it has something called "miniruby" used to build the final "ruby" < 1258159475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, this ed doesn't have -e < 1258159475 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grr < 1258159478 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno, but I know % typically is < 1258159528 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When will Go be renamed? < 1258159536 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mu. < 1258159660 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when will Sgeo be renamed? :-> < 1258159672 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sgeo < 1258159674 0 :sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now? < 1258159675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C was hard to search for once upon a time too < 1258159688 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and unix? eunuchs? These guys value puns and conciseness... nothing else. < 1258159690 0 :sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it's not just searchability. There's already a Go! < 1258159708 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, and its author is a whining bitch on the Go issue tracker, and nobody uses his. < 1258159718 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And he can't claim the right over a short English word as a name. < 1258159725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially if he has an exclamation mark after it and they don't. < 1258159741 0 :sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe no one uses it, but it's referenced in papers, iirc. Maybe Go! should be renamed to "Academic Go"? < 1258159750 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nobody really cares. < 1258159818 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree, it's not worth complaining about < 1258159822 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"go" is too common < 1258159837 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION supports ehird for president < 1258159851 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... until the DOS outlawing, of course ;-) < 1258159856 0 :sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who uses Firebird? < 1258159862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Many. < 1258159976 0 :sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to try a new game < 1258160055 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird! < 1258160057 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey < 1258160060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yo < 1258160167 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders if TinyPy compiles ... < 1258160177 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What OS? < 1258160192 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :who, me? < 1258160202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1258160206 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XP using DJGPP ;-) < 1258160240 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, one whole file in /examples (julia.py) < 1258160272 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doh, depends on Python for bootstrapping < 1258160277 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(have it but not installed) < 1258160727 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1258160727 0 :clog_!n=nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1258161029 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah, TinyPY no dice either < 1258161036 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION limps off to play Quake instead ... < 1258161117 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what failed < 1258161137 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something to do with "struct stat stbuf" (couldn't figure out size or whatever) < 1258161203 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-64-146.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1258161637 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258161637 0 :clog_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :clog < 1258161977 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes to bed < 1258162088 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg, he said "go" < 1258162093 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1258162116 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258162117 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1258162118 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it should be "issue #9's to bed" < 1258162432 0 :puzzlet_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258162444 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258162818 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Any news on your distro? < 1258162871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the design is resisting my mental prods attempting to change it, which is a good indicator it's solid. implementation is waiting on hardware, so, within a month or two perhaps I'll be hacking something up < 1258162889 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Any reason for needing real hardware? < 1258162904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's say something you can use as your daily driver (as long as you have contact with me at a pinch) by... may 2010? optimistically < 1258162926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: practicality — VMs are platonic in a way that probably won't lead to good results on real hardware < 1258162939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but honestly? I just don't feel like the OS X chrome would inspire me to make something good < 1258162998 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Fair enough. < 1258163008 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll have to check it out, at the very least. < 1258163116 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thankfully i don't have to go to any great effort to get an installer... it'll just be "tell package manager to install whatever root package I decide into /mnt/sys" plus a dab of configuration < 1258163226 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, the installer should be about as complex as Gentoo's. < 1258163241 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(read: LiveCD that has tar and chroot) < 1258163283 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the package manager. < 1258163287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :chroot not required, actually. < 1258163304 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just a netinstall (= run the package manager) with PKGROOT=/mnt/sys or whatever. < 1258163315 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plus quick config, and the lilo install. < 1258163329 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(If you want to keep GRUB around for your existing stuff, just install lilo to a partition and make grub chainload it.) < 1258163347 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gentoo uses the chroot because it makes it a bit simpler to install packages from there. < 1258163367 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the tarball doesn't have things like "a bootloader" or "Linux"; you have to emerge them.) < 1258163399 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No tarball in mine, since it'll just have a little system w/ the package manager on the CD itself. < 1258163408 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although really, CD? Get a USB stick, you bum :P < 1258163427 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've got 4 in here *somewhere*. < 1258163437 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Just... Buried. < 1258163443 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LIVE FLOPPY < 1258163448 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Displays an ASCII tux on boot < 1258163678 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1258163811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the make incantation to append to a previous rule? < 1258163857 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dunno < 1258163872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :helpful information, Rugxulo. < 1258163896 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, sometimes I find being ignored worse than no help :-P < 1258163943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, it's :: < 1258163946 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the other one has to be :: too < 1258163947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>_< < 1258163965 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :honestly, makefiles are quite ugly, no wonder there are so many alternatives nowadays < 1258163971 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :aha < 1258163972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clean: clean2 < 1258163972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clean2: < 1258163972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : rm -f *.y < 1258163976 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: they suck more. < 1258163978 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from mk(1) < 1258163983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is just an improved make < 1258163988 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on what you want to do < 1258163992 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1258164013 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cons, scons, cmake, cbuild, makepp, etc. < 1258164028 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sucks, sucks, sucks, sucks, sucks < 1258164233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin.ca/raw/1670742 < 1258164237 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that was easy < 1258164256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just five lines (six including the unneeded separator newline :P) to add goyacc support cleanly to the go makefiles without editing them < 1258164934 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Cons sucks, scons sucks, cmake uses Make, cbuild appears to suck, makepp suffers from most of the same flaws as does Make... < 1258164961 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cbuild isn't bad unless you want to do really complex stuff < 1258164981 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Waf, I think that was the improved Scons variant < 1258164984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmake takes make and makes it suck more — truly astonishing < 1258164997 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some people swear by cmake, dunno really < 1258164998 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :waf is useless to actually get things done, and it isn't a fork of scons < 1258165008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't do enough for you and the syntax is awkward < 1258165026 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all syntax is awkward < 1258165040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A useless, false statement that adds nothing. 'grats < 1258165057 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :False, now there's a "real" language ;-) < 1258165068 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"true", even ;-) < 1258165111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I like how the build system for most Go programs is just a few lines, only two of which you ever need to change... < 1258165114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TARG=gobf < 1258165114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOFILES=gobf.go < 1258165114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1258165114 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :include $(GOROOT)/src/Make.$(GOARCH) < 1258165115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :include $(GOROOT)/src/Make.cmd < 1258165137 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't *BSD already do something similar? < 1258165148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You change TARG= to the name of your executable, GOFILES= to the filenames of your sources, separated by spaces... and you get "make" and "make clean" working, and cross-compiling is just "make GOARCH=arm" < 1258165154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, and make install, you get that too < 1258165172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"make install GOBIN=/foo/bin" installs to /foo/bin instead (it just installs the binary, you could add stuff to the install target yourself if you want) < 1258165180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: quite similar < 1258165183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but just for the BSD trees themselves < 1258165188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plan 9 does it too for all programs < 1258165193 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and go IS by the plan 9 guys... < 1258165205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the downside is that with go you need to have a few env variables < 1258165223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ env | grep ^GO < 1258165223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOARCH=amd64 < 1258165223 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOBIN=/Users/ehird/go/bin < 1258165224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOMAXPROCS=2 < 1258165224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOROOT=/Users/ehird/go < 1258165224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOS=darwin < 1258165234 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, 5 vars < 1258165243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not perfect, but then it's not really a problem either < 1258165263 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can omit GOBIN if you're ok with ~/bin, GOMAXPROCS if you don't want multi-cpu stuff (this is stupid though) < 1258165275 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Cmake attempts to make autoconf and automake suck less. In this goal, it will of *course* suck more than make. < 1258165288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, but it USES make to make something WORSE than make. < 1258165302 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Normally any attempts to make make suck more just fail; it's always at its worst. < 1258165310 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :autotools manages it, sure... but cmake manages it even more. < 1258165343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOROOT=/opt/go < 1258165343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOBIN=/bin < 1258165343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOARCH=386 < 1258165344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOOS=linux < 1258165344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GOMAXROCS=(number of cpus on the system) < 1258165344 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :— distro :-P < 1258165345 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes that there is no such thing as a good build system. < 1258165347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*GOMAXPROCS < 1258165374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh, I haven't had any issues with Go's so far. Admittedly it achieves that by being so fast that dependencies just... don't matter. < 1258165389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If your large project compiles in three seconds... who cares if it's all in one rule? < 1258165620 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :By the way, if anyone has an old box to donate that'd speed up distro development :-P < 1258165874 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sends ehird a UNIVAC < 1258165886 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sends ehird an Altair < 1258165890 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sends ehird an Honeywell < 1258165890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no. < 1258165995 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, even if I had something, it'd cost more to ship over there than it's worth :-P < 1258166021 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION paddles across the Atlantic just to brind ehird his 486 ... < 1258166145 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sends ehird the Bombe < 1258166154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tsar Bomba < 1258166160 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sends GAME.COM < 1258166169 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sends Game&Watch < 1258166205 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sends a VIC-20 ;-) < 1258166212 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enjoy those oodles of RAM :-D < 1258166247 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION would actually almost enjoy writing a Befunge93 interpreter for a VIC-20 ... if he knew how (and had one) < 1258166369 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`google "vic-20" emulator < 1258166372 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can now write VIC-20 games on your PC using this complier and test them immediately on any emulator. You can even design your graphics on your favourite ... \ www.kdef.com/geek/vic/ - [13]Cached - [14]Similar < 1258166390 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I know, VICE (even runs in DOS) ... still, I have no experience < 1258166422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the asm is pretty simple < 1258166432 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is struggling with Befunge98 ... apparently 3k$ doesn't work like he expects (i.e. at all) < 1258166637 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason, it seems 1k$ pops two values off the stack < 1258166650 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k is the unintuitive one < 1258166665 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k does that many MORE < 1258166671 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i.e. afterwards it goes on to the instruction you were king < 1258166675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after doing all the repeats < 1258166686 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can understand the fun and hilarity caused by mixing k and #. < 1258166694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather, no, you can't understand it < 1258166697 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is confused < 1258166698 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"abc"1k$,@ < 1258166702 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prints 'a' for instance < 1258166705 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1258166724 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you saying, "it does ... then loops n times" < 1258166726 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1258166744 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must be, since CCBI and FBBI both behave identically < 1258166775 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :k, I believe, means "run the next instruction n times" < 1258166784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we can see that if n=1, "run the next instruction 1 time", it executes < 1258166788 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then we go on to the next instruction < 1258166790 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is that instruction < 1258166792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it runs again < 1258166795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 1kX runs X twice < 1258166802 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :odd but apparently true < 1258166809 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it may not even be intentional. < 1258166830 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, CCBI also mimics it, so ... < 1258166835 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyways, voila! I have done it! < 1258166843 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(mild imaginary applause) < 1258166854 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a program that tells you whether run as Befunge 93, 96, 97, or 98 < 1258166855 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-) < 1258166870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what about 109?????????????????? < 1258166872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha only joking. < 1258166877 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do show it < 1258166880 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not done (or so I heard) < 1258166883 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course ;-) < 1258166903 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :109 isn't an official standard anyway. < 1258166944 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tested on various 93 interpreters, MTFI for 96 and 97 (are there others for those??? doubt it ...), and CCBI and FBBI for 98 < 1258166959 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1" "/#v_"8879">,1k$>,@ < 1258166961 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;$R z 3 < 1258166962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm really digging this trackball < 1258166963 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : >0"39",z+ ^ < 1258166964 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION bows < 1258166968 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm pretty good at it after only a day < 1258166970 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: pretty < 1258166981 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :enjoy, oh esoteric kings of mastery! < 1258167002 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dedicated to thee and thine dedication to all arts odd ;-) < 1258167186 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(note that it's two spaces in between quotes) < 1258167215 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops, forgot to test Interfunge :-) < 1258167256 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err ... it obviously doesn't handle it, heh (understatement) < 1258167456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever poised to write a program then you realise < 1258167461 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i have no programs to give to the world? < 1258167544 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah, there's always some idea (even if crazy or super trivial) < 1258167569 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok, but slightly sleep deprived and lazy—— < 1258167574 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think I'm gonna eat that food < 1258167576 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would help < 1258167595 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I must engineer myself to need less sleep sometime < 1258167616 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, sleep is good for problem solving, though ;-) < 1258167640 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, say, be able to function normally for 3 days with vastly reduced sleep, and then be out for about 24 hours < 1258167645 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd like thaht < 1258167646 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*that < 1258167660 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I both love staying in bed once I'm in there, and not going to bed when I'm not < 1258167707 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :join the club ;-) < 1258167725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, but I'm crazy enough to try and devise a schedule where that is actually possible < 1258167741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's all chemistry < 1258167849 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, the body has its own internal clock, hence they suggest sleeping on a normal schedule for best results < 1258167855 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and exercise helps too (or so I'm told, heh) < 1258167871 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too much caffeine can hurt too, but a little is okay < 1258167886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The circadian rhythm is important, but there are alternate schedules that work fine with it < 1258167909 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uberman is roughly the point at where things are hardcore enough that it seems the body just gives up on the circadian rhythm. < 1258167926 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's not an insurmountable problem. < 1258167950 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but rest is beneficial, sometimes more beneficial than higher quantities of work < 1258167960 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't work harder, work smarter < 1258168012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Uberman delivers rest. < 1258168052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am talking with the knowledge of the experiences of seasoned Uberman practitioners... they are extraordinarily well-rested and productive on very little sleep, and the circadian rhythm appears to just drop out. < 1258168059 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not less rest; it's restructured rest. < 1258168082 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The disadvantages being who knows what it does long-term, and also it means you have to sleep every four hours. < 1258168494 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: A guy in #go-nuts just directly portrayed a false dichotomy between pkg-config and autotools. < 1258168497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Therapy please? < 1258168525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[03:14] Amaranth: ehird: Well the other choice is for every package to require env variables :) < 1258168528 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ding ding ding! < 1258168530 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :False trichotomy. < 1258168713 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: ... So. Much. Wrong. < 1258168742 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pkg-config essentially replaces *libtool*... < 1258168768 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And... That third line is WTF? < 1258168792 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LET'S BE SAD ^_^ < 1258169202 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258169206 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258169211 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"gxis revido" < 1258169382 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyone crazy enough to want to restructure the Go documentation as manpages with me? < 1258169386 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Didn't think so. < 1258169887 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Y'all suck :P < 1258171588 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.4/20091027080938]" < 1258172925 0 :immibis!n=chatzill@203-97-111-43.cable.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258173276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1258174444 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION comes up with some little ideas for VCS backends < 1258174492 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1258175256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hey, I could implement this VCS in Go! < 1258177443 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1258178370 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm < 1258178422 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm < 1258178423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's too complicated language! I think the easiest is Visual Basic .NET < 1258178424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :—comment on a blog post on go < 1258178456 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Its not different its like Java, python is more easier than of it :D" < 1258178627 0 :sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1258178628 0 :ehird_!n=ehird@88-107-8-136.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1258178674 0 :ehird__!n=ehird@91.105.120.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258179076 0 :ehird_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1258179596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258179596 0 :ehird__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ehird < 1258185130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what was that minimalist pastebin you liked? < 1258185599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1258185600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1258186738 0 :asiekierka!i=asiekier@078088180066.elblag.vectranet.pl JOIN :#esoteric < 1258186739 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*BAM* < 1258186761 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i should make a new esolang < 1258186798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :noooooooooooooooooo < 1258187755 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1258187853 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why noooooooooooooooooot < 1258189073 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"ChatZilla 0.9.85 [Firefox 3.5.5/20091105041559]" < 1258189104 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :becaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaause < 1258190005 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro.message[1].amount[a] != asiekierka.message[3].amount[o] < 1258190594 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1258190733 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258192594 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm going to write goreutils! < 1258192606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's like coreutils, except without the bloat and also written in Go. < 1258192611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is not a large undertaking WHATSOEVER < 1258192626 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: and the resulting binaries only run in the runtime environment < 1258192636 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh no, a GC! < 1258192638 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The sky is falling! < 1258192641 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C++ has a runtime too, weenie. < 1258192645 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird < 1258192651 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the deal with go exactly < 1258192662 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i watched the google video for it and came away with like < 1258192670 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a significant feeling of not knowing what the fuck < 1258192679 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: what was that minimalist pastebin you liked? <-- do you mean http://sprunge.us/ ? < 1258192704 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: did I say it didn't? < 1258192707 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing < 1258192709 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: it's from the people who made unix, c, and plan 9. the compiler is well engineered and _extremely_ fast. it's a systems programming language. C, cleaned up, with a garbage collector, a wonderful concurrency model (a very big point), and a nice sort-of-OO type system that makes structuring programs a lot easier. < 1258192710 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1258192712 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What are you doing here < 1258192719 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought I was on Isharia& for a moment < 1258192723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Basically it's a more comfortable C for the applications level with some extra stuff, and it's from the Old Guard. < 1258192725 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :terrifying < 1258192732 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1258192741 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so okay < 1258192743 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's silly how syntax highlighting is in the resulting url though < 1258192743 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess < 1258192751 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an industrial grade language < 1258192756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1258192760 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's great for little hacks, too < 1258192765 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :explain < 1258192770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's low-level without having lots of boilerplate < 1258192771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, It could be useful for polygots I guess? < 1258192780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and its abstraction facilities are good, plus its syntax is light < 1258192785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it ends up being quite pleasing for little hacks < 1258192792 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :liiike < 1258192799 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a general-purpose language, dude. < 1258192809 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :give an example of a hack < 1258192810 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fffffff < 1258192812 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(3 marks) < 1258192816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Little programs. < 1258192819 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like < 1258192822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That you'd normally do with, say, Python. < 1258192874 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wonder what are the points of Go that kill the performance (one larger-than-usual-projetwork Java program made me realize that real performance killer in Java are virtual function calls). < 1258192889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: Basically everything is resolved at compile-time. < 1258192894 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including method lookups and all that stuff. < 1258192900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Right now, the crappy GC. They're making that much betterr. < 1258192901 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the video, they said they still had some flaky library code < 1258192907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the gc compiler doesn't do much optimisation atm. < 1258192912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It is, however, EXTREMELY fast.) < 1258192921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Still, it's quite good now. < 1258192931 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It'll be competitive with C in a while, that's for sure. < 1258192934 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually i think they called it crufty < 1258192936 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but nerrrrrrrds < 1258193023 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1258193026 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.120.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258193029 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1258193045 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1258193045 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, G is the first new language in ages that I'm interested in. < 1258193047 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Go < 1258193048 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i looked in #go < 1258193053 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's #go-nuts < 1258193057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :492 people < 1258193061 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, i worked it out via #golang < 1258193064 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lawls < 1258193084 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but in #go they have blah blah "about Go (the game, not the silly language)" < 1258193124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a lot of people are dismissive of it because it has the word Google in it (Bell Labs would be more accurate) and people compare it to C++ and Python and are retards. < 1258193155 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Go(ogle) thing took me a little while to get, and I was a little embarrassed it took me so long < 1258193188 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the debugger-in-progress is called ogle < 1258193204 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, I like the name, it's good < 1258193208 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's GOod < 1258193215 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you crack me up < 1258193217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a watermelon < 1258193219 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like the running... mammal thing < 1258193220 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logo < 1258193232 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think it's running, it might be thrown < 1258193239 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an otter < 1258193241 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i think < 1258193244 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i love its little hands < 1258193245 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what < 1258193250 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otters don't fucking look likfffffffffffff < 1258193252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're so helpless < 1258193253 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1258193255 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it might not be an otter < 1258193256 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll ASK < 1258193376 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deficiencies of sprunge.us: can only post via curl, no quick paste method; syntax highlighting is on the resulting URL; syntax highlighting adds line numbers that break stuff < 1258193384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pthing: it's a GOpher < 1258193515 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :final deficiency: mentions firefox on the homepage < 1258193517 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh of course < 1258193786 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258193813 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah. on classic macos it seems like you need to list all exported symbols from libraries < 1258193818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none are exported by default < 1258193823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that will sure make libick a pain < 1258193935 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1258193992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1258194057 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1258194150 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am about to write some recursive make. How evil am I? < 1258194179 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :evil < 1258194183 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: despicable spam of the netherworlds. but what has that to do with recursive make? < 1258194215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, 15.23 on a scale from 0 to 10 < 1258194279 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the reading is off the scale!) < 1258194756 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no anchovies < 1258194772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, what? < 1258194792 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said, nice iwc annotation < 1258194811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, oh right, forgot that bit in it < 1258194838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/ was.... strange < 1258194847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that was yesterday heh < 1258194860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't keep track of it's updates atm < 1258194903 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a silly pun < 1258195117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. I see it now < 1258195149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION curses the emulator again. < 1258195351 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tries emulating curses, but fails < 1258195376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION curses libraries on classic Mac SO < 1258195377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS* < 1258195398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need to list all exported symbols. And they must be declared extern first. < 1258195498 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1258196415 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258197088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yay I got usage output from ick < 1258197096 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ick < 1258197109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, c-intercal compiler yes < 1258197114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on classic mac < 1258197123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still I haven't managed to build libick yet < 1258197131 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not a question < 1258197134 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :an expression of distaste < 1258197135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I have to manually patch some generated code in the lexer < 1258197139 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was quite horrible < 1258197152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :flex generated code depending on unistd.h < 1258197164 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :need to talk to ais about that < 1258197185 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does uts stand for in uname()s utsname < 1258197233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no clue < 1258197422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wonder if it even is an acronym < 1258197544 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258197737 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/LdaJ?c ;; fuuuuck those line numbers < 1258197771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm drop the ?c to copy < 1258197780 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but that's still a pain in the ass < 1258197781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah that's an issue I never noticed before < 1258197782 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*the ass < 1258197789 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it's < 1258197797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is a way to do it without copying < 1258197799 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, true. I mostly used it without syntax highlighting < 1258197801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with some evil css tricks < 1258197806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but honestly? i rarely need line numbers < 1258197809 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what would be useful < 1258197810 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is < 1258197821 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin/f845#l47 < 1258197828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, i need line numbers when I get "error on line foo" < 1258197832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :backgrounds line 47 as yellowish, and jumps about 15 lines above it < 1258197838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you can highlight errors < 1258197842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://pastebin/f845#l47-52 too < 1258197855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://pastebin/f845#l47 <-- is that supposed to be a real one or just an example? < 1258197856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1258197859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :backgrounds the whole thing, jumps about 20 lines (amended :P) above the whole block < 1258197860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :example < 1258197870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :github commits do this iirc < 1258197883 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I'm pretty sure I seen it on other pastebins too < 1258197887 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1258197902 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should just write a POST-bin (hur hur hur) and stop whining :P < 1258197916 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :don't think anything has go highlighting yet though :D < 1258198151 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ok, I just had a ridiculous idea and someone has to hear it in case it manifests < 1258198169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh? < 1258198222 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the "pastebin" actually just lets you post to http://blah/ with some text, and it gives you back a url. going to that url, say http://blah/asdf, executes the file you gave it in a sandbox. < 1258198226 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The pastebin script looks like... drumroll < 1258198255 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(echo "#!/usr/bin/pygments $language"; cat) | curl ... < 1258198259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I am an awful person < 1258198280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so now ick -@ works in MPW < 1258198280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1258198315 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/HXKV < 1258198343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers doing a ridiculous thing < 1258198369 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that'd be ridiculous < 1258198376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1258198390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what are the chances for ais showing up today? < 1258198392 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i feel kinda bad even jusst having thought the thoughts < 1258198394 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*just < 1258198397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very low < 1258198397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like 0 < 1258198403 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, damn < 1258198434 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i slept 13 hours due to my new unterman sleep schedule < 1258198464 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wat < 1258198472 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uber <-> unter < 1258198486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yar < 1258198486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1258198506 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay i'll just go ahead and ask < 1258198517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: should I implement rc in go < 1258198521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PLEASE SAY NO < 1258198533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wouldn't that take some time? < 1258198543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, also how goes your webserver, ircd, and so on? < 1258198576 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: what have you implemented in go sofar? < 1258198606 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make a bf interpreter ;) < 1258198611 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh, wc, and some io functions, and a binding to uname that doesn't work yet, and echo(1), and some misc code that doesn't really fit into things < 1258198615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of my going has been in-head < 1258198618 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah bf interp sounds good < 1258198621 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MAYBE I WILL OKLOFOK < 1258198622 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe i will < 1258198658 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does "binding to uname" mean? < 1258198680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uname() function < 1258198680 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gives like < 1258198681 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :information about processor, os < 1258198682 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pretty boring < 1258198721 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1258198723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bf interp oh-kay < 1258198731 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm right OKATY < 1258198740 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: d'ya think I should use yacc (overkill but sorta fun) or MANUA-PARSE 2000 < 1258198752 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also yacc handles like... file opening and shit for me, which is nice < 1258198756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but i have to write some other boilerplate < 1258198760 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but on the other hand < 1258198762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it'd look so < 1258198764 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :retarded < 1258198766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tiny grammar sitting there < 1258198770 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if MANUA-PARSE 2000 is what go's parsing library is called, that! < 1258198778 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah yacc totally < 1258198780 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, a BF interpreter bound into uname(2)? That sounds quite an unexpected trick from an OS. < 1258198785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :xD < 1258198798 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could make the whole thing a yacc file tbh < 1258198801 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(goyacc that is) < 1258198814 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Go yacc yourself" sounds a bit indecent. < 1258198816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, I don't need to preparse < 1258198818 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1258198819 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can do the dbc thing < 1258198825 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OKAHY LETSS ogjodfigogIjg < 1258198827 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1258198828 0 :rodgort!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1258198828 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GO < 1258198830 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get it < 1258198831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let's < 1258198832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GO < 1258198833 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha? < 1258198859 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :höhöh < 1258198865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, btw it seems classic mac os supports shared libraries but not static ones. As in no *.a < 1258198872 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ugh < 1258198877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, either you link the object files directly, or you link shared < 1258198896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, well that's okay < 1258198898 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so yes there are lots of *.o for standard library :D < 1258198901 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.os are fine and stuff < 1258198904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :LOTS < 1258198921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh, just archive them up and write code to extract them, voila you invented ar < 1258198930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, StdCRuntime.o is huge btw. < 1258198930 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or even just make folders < 1258198938 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/lib/libc/*.o < 1258198968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where huge = 56K < 1258198973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for 68k < 1258198995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh 8K for PPC? < 1258199001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only 12k left then huh < 1258199004 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, that is just a stub for the shared library < 1258199004 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hyuk hyuk hyuk < 1258199011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hah < 1258199335 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ick is 348K btw < 1258199366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though that was with optimisation off < 1258199394 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't rebuild it fully in emulator. need real mac for some of the files (otherwise it crashes) < 1258202885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, know what Print does in the MPW shell? < 1258202921 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :prints a page < 1258202931 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh so you ran into that before too? < 1258202936 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope, guess < 1258202947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION removes those *.ps from the desktop < 1258203330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As of April 2009 dotsrc.org (formerly SunSITE.dk) has been in the process of shutting down the project hosting part. Since we started open source hosting more than 10 years ago, Sourceforge, Freshmeat, Launchpad and a bunch of others have emerged. We don't see the big need for us doing this any more, and will focus on other services. < 1258203342 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It occurs to me that that is exactly like committing suicide. < 1258203359 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You think you're just ending your own life and no bother to anyone else and then you go and destroy the lives of everyone close to you. < 1258203366 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how much code is lost forever now. < 1258203807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, OUCH < 1258203826 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Relax, AnMaster, an actual person didn't die :P < 1258203876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, of course not. But the code... < 1258203939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who wants to hear a terminally-tired lunatic ramble about his ideas for DVCSs?! < 1258203945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Hint: It's me) < 1258203966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not me. I'm being "productive" atm < 1258204040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What, by fiddling with C-INTERCAL? < 1258204116 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that's why I used "" around the word. < 1258204123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm getting somewhere < 1258204124 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[[Yiu gotta be kidding me. How can you encrease power in a smart phone? By writing something new, that uses google servers power.... dont you see that? why "put more cpu and ram" if online merchandising do it for you? what if you are fuckinf far of anything? where you gonna buy a fucking cpu? come on, be smart]] < 1258204131 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Can I vnc? :3 < 1258204133 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty please? < 1258204135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^___^ < 1258204138 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, to what? < 1258204143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sheepshaver < 1258204151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, don't think sheepshaver supports that < 1258204158 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway I'm doing this on a real mac atm < 1258204158 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It doesn't need to < 1258204162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so tough shit < 1258204172 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, because sheepshaver keeps crashing too much < 1258204174 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :im bored guys < 1258204177 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i need an idea < 1258204180 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tough shit? I need more fibre in my diet. < 1258204224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, however one of the keys seems to be broken on that old ibook. Scissors style, but the things that hold the key to the scissors seems broken. < 1258204232 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very annoying since it is the cmd key < 1258204267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION swaps it with the "enter key" that is the same size but on the other side of space (why is there an enter key there at all btw?) < 1258204276 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Easy answering dialogs, iirc. < 1258204281 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should get ick working on an actual Mac Plus. < 1258204283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1258204298 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, can it handle 32 bit stuff? I forgot < 1258204323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc some 68k had a 32-bit adressing mode < 1258204327 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :addressing* < 1258204346 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Macintosh Plus can address 4 mebibytes of RAM. < 1258204351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well. < 1258204354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can address 8. < 1258204356 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It only fits 4. < 1258204362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway if you want I can give you a hqx file of what I have so far < 1258204367 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah. < 1258204377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1258204400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I could do *.img.bin too probably. No way I could manage .dmg however < 1258204420 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C'mon listen to my VCS ideas! They're... almost as weird as arch? < 1258204423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really. < 1258204478 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_va9O40qIhaE/StfekoB1W8I/AAAAAAAAB70/G32jsTp_BWU/s1600-h/ottosm.jpg < 1258204524 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cute! < 1258204645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, btw it seems MPW has some weird file matching thing where [a-z0-9]*.c works but .*.c doesn't. Nor does *.c < 1258204654 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it is neither glob nor usual regex < 1258204660 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can't find actual docs for it < 1258204879 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There are about 20 special constructs within regular expressions, all of which are cryptically described when you execute the command line "Help Patterns" within the MPW Shell. I'll mention some of the more useful ones here. -- http://www.mactech.com/articles/develop/issue_26/mpw.html < 1258204898 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"?" corresponds to the normal regex "." there. < 1258204924 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So ?*.c then, I think. < 1258205000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh if you know MPW... What is the difference between one and two of those old-style s-es in makefile rules (those symbols that look like f) < 1258205024 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :: vs :: < 1258205030 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::: is that all rules get executd < 1258205032 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have duplicates < 1258205036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you need all of them to be :: < 1258205060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258205122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you mean like foo :: bar quux bar will force bar to be built twice if it wasn't built before? < 1258205187 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1258205190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo:: < 1258205199 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : echo hardcore anal meanderings < 1258205200 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :foo:: < 1258205205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : echo now only half price < 1258205209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ make foo < 1258205215 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can also read http://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/make.html#Double_002dColon though I guess ehird's explanation made that redundant. < 1258205215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would one have multiple such heh < 1258205216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo hardcore anal meanderings < 1258205216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hardcore anal meanderings < 1258205219 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :echo now only half price < 1258205221 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now only half price < 1258205224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: different files, modules etc < 1258205334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258205377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wouldn't you have different rule names to build different files? < 1258205439 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same file < 1258205441 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or phony target < 1258205448 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different makefiles < 1258205449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i meant < 1258205455 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :different makefiles, modules of the build system < 1258205552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258205561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok that would work < 1258205614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what the license would be on a short .r file with no copyright header or such that came with an MPW example < 1258205647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realised that might be an issue < 1258205664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Trivial things are uncopyrightable. < 1258205690 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the makefile began as based on an example makefile, but it has not been completely rewritten. < 1258205694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I advise you to stop worrying; you're more likely to be bitten by the thousands of patents any program you write will inevitably violate. < 1258205711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, probably < 1258205819 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258205940 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway, why can't you run sheepshaver yourself? < 1258205962 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have your porting work — and also, it's unstable as a dick on an. Um. dick. < 1258205964 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, iirc I read that it *does* work on OS X < 1258206013 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, "my porting work"? would that be the hqx file? < 1258206027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You modded C-INTERCAL, did you not? < 1258206028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I could send that over easily. And yes so far things build but are mostly untested. < 1258206062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes, custom build system + manual written config.h, plus a few minor patches to the source (in all cases code that tried to use unistd.h) < 1258206087 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the most annoying change was to the *generated* parts of lexer.c < 1258206093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure how to properly solve that < 1258206119 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe implement a dummy isatty() for it to link to instead? < 1258206134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and dummy fileno() possibly. But it never complained about that < 1258206170 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, Tom Lehrer is STILL alive. < 1258206216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wow indeed. He wrote some awesome lyrics. < 1258206235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(catchy melodies too) < 1258206247 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pretty sure he pilfered a lot of those melodies :P < 1258206265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yeah probably, but probably not all. < 1258206696 0 :oklokok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-208.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1258207777 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258207942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, in case you actually decide to be interested in it: ick-mac.img.bin is at http://omploader.org/vMnJwMw things build bure are mostly untested (and I very much suspects that ick will need some patching so it doesn't try to call a compiler, but instead prints out some MPW commands for you to run) < 1258207954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and that contains pre-compiled files < 1258207962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it still needs MPW since things are built as MPW tools < 1258208050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and that has some stuff not relevant for mac build system stripped. Could easy be added back from ick-0.29 download < 1258208068 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll be interested if you're interested about my vcs stuff < 1258208088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sure, tell me about it < 1258208096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is taking a pause anyway < 1258208100 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the catch < 1258208111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :catch for? < 1258208115 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this :P < 1258208123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that you *have* to try it out? < 1258208141 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i said i'd be _interested_ < 1258208152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, define interested then < 1258208168 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :attentively (as much as i can in this state) listening and taking it in and offering comment. :P < 1258208218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, nah, not really worth it then. Anyway it shouldn't be hard for you to set things up. Apart from, you know, the whole thing ;P < 1258208238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :methinks that i preferred it when i was sure you weren't listening < 1258208242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like, downloading those "fixes" from apple and manually apply them to the installed mpw < 1258208252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, tell me, I will read it when I get back (phone) < 1258208265 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too lazy. < 1258208752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1258208786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks up ick error messages < 1258209195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, interesting. It gives different errors for files generated on mac and files generated on unix < 1258209200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so something is broken < 1258209500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh very broken < 1258209592 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1258209675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: SO WANNA HEAR :D < 1258209685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, a file with mixed CR and LF is quite painful to fix up < 1258209694 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom is quite painful to fix up < 1258209717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beer.mac.c: ASCII C program text, with very long lines, with CRLF, CR, LF line terminators < 1258209774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :those CRLF seems just to be two newlines, one mac one and one *nix one < 1258209787 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION converts all the input files on mac to CR line endings < 1258209896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: < 1258209902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ICL000I PLEASE DO ,10 <- #1 < 1258209902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ON THE WAY TO 2 < 1258209902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : CORRECT SOURCE AND RESUBNIT < 1258209908 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't that is supposed to happen < 1258209919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what was miscompiled in ick < 1258209932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the generated file is completely wrong < 1258209964 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OI < 1258209965 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DVCS < 1258209976 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sure. I told you to write it before < 1258209978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*shrug* < 1258209984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay! < 1258209996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if this gets an augur like monologue, chip in and i promise i won't ignore you < 1258210008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most modern VCSs are based on basically, trees of history < 1258210012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :patch, patch, patch, patch, end < 1258210021 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they don't really track changes to the code in this sense < 1258210031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they track snapshots in time, not the actual changes to where it is now < 1258210052 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my idea is to sort of "inline" this history into an actual tracking, sort of like an "enhanced" nested patch sort of thing < 1258210056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the main thing is < 1258210062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about darcs here? It isn't exactly a tree of history there < 1258210069 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's closer to my idea, yes < 1258210075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1258210076 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, each repository is this thing < 1258210081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now the interesting bit is < 1258210090 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of my operations involve multiple repositories < 1258210094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance, you may know the common one < 1258210104 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :get changes from this repository B into A, and merge if required < 1258210105 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merge? pull? < 1258210110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1258210112 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but with mine, it's varargs, so to speak < 1258210117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err... < 1258210120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you pass it a bunch of repositories, and it will merge them < 1258210127 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without favouring any < 1258210130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and with user input < 1258210148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1258210149 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, for instance, you can select some features people have pointed you to and merge them all into the mainline in one merge < 1258210166 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the interesting thing is just how independent these repositories become < 1258210176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay < 1258210186 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's no special pulling, you just rsync the repository down (using your existing one as a base to transfer less, just as an optimisation) < 1258210200 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then it merges these repositories into a new repository C, which it replaces your original one with (in normal use) < 1258210217 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so, basically, we have this unified thing that's a repository, but it's also sort of one big massive, nested change < 1258210238 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it means that operations like merging can work on an arbitrary number of repositories elegantly < 1258210254 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you don't have to do special pulling algorithms; just download the new repository and merge that one and your old one < 1258210258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh okay < 1258210262 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed pushing is the same < 1258210267 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: uh? any bit conffusing? :P < 1258210272 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*confusing < 1258210283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how can merge work on arbitrary number of repos? < 1258210297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all, diff2 and diff3 are rather different iirc. < 1258210309 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true, and it will of course require user operation < 1258210311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes there will be conficts < 1258210324 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, that's the thing, you do these N+ repo merges already < 1258210328 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just do them as separate options < 1258210332 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you finally solve all the little conflicts < 1258210333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, so what if you have 5 different conflicting changes of the same few lines? < 1258210336 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and introduce a whole new batch < 1258210337 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what will you show the user? < 1258210341 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do you see what i mean? < 1258210343 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :these problems ALREADY HAPPEN < 1258210356 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is a marked improvement — once a conflict is resolved, that's it < 1258210362 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no more disturbing it as you go onto the next repo to move < 1258210363 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes but you normally merge them in pairs or such first. < 1258210368 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, exactly < 1258210380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the internal algorithm *could* be just a bunch of diff2/diff3s talking to each other a lot < 1258210381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you want to merge all at once unless I misunderstood you? < 1258210384 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and of course the devil's in the details < 1258210391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I'm fairly sure it's doable < 1258210396 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the implications are great < 1258210410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, when did you last use diff3? < 1258210429 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :compared to a diff2 it is rather confusing < 1258210432 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure when but I think the place was called Hell. < 1258210439 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, exactly! < 1258210446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, of course actually doing it is the hard part. < 1258210473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But I think if you're trying to mix 4 repositories into your mainline, resolving conflicts each time, only to have your resolvings reversed by the next merge or two isn't the way to go about it! < 1258210475 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, which is why I'm wondering how on earth you would represent a 4 way-or-more conflict to the user < 1258210485 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'll see :P < 1258210490 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :interestingly it gives a purely functional sort of vibe < 1258210497 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh? < 1258210498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everything seems to be a function of some repos to a new repo < 1258210513 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you merge A, B, and C, producing ABC (let's call it D) < 1258210525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if A was your working copy, you throw it away and switch to D < 1258210529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway merging one at a time has an advantage: less confusion. < 1258210530 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(this happens automatically of course) < 1258210540 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm... splitting repos could be interesting < 1258210544 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :merging condenses many repos into one < 1258210553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :splitting expands one repo into many < 1258210565 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i could see that being useful for focused work < 1258210577 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: less confusing, maybe, but more tedium and hard work. Anyway, I think the internal implications will rise to other UI improvements. < 1258210584 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it's not like it's a one-trick pony. < 1258210584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why less confusion? Because you will have less code to consider. < 1258210609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, the merging was just an example. < 1258210645 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the same reason you prefer many small commits over one huge. Because it is easier to understand what you have changed. (And easier to bisect, if it comes to that) < 1258210658 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Which is why the merge will be represented by little choices. < 1258210672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1258210681 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It can still just be "which of these two is right" while still making sure that doesn't invalidate another choice on another merge. < 1258210697 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how would one dig back for older versions in your system? Same way as usual? < 1258210705 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, being able to merge all of them at once means that the automatic merging should work better < 1258210709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in case you want to bisect a regression or such < 1258210712 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it'll have more variations on each relevant snippet < 1258210717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(which is often very very useful) < 1258210720 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so more of an idea of the structure, you see? < 1258210729 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably, yes, unless I think of something better < 1258210744 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one thing that'll be quite easy to do, I think, will be `svn blame` but per-character < 1258210756 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, actually highlight the exact blocks people are responsible for and the like < 1258210757 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :efficiently < 1258210766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" It can still just be "which of these two is right" while still making sure that doesn't invalidate another choice on another merge." <-- what about "neither, because this change and the one 20 lines above affect each other, hand editing the whole file is needed" < 1258210770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well < 1258210776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one is a problem with current systems too < 1258210778 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why hello there Mr. Edge Case :P < 1258210789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, except I hit that more often that I wanted to. < 1258210790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::/ < 1258210795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hopefully the merging tool will be advanced enough to handle that. < 1258210811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it would have to be aware of the language structure to do so < 1258210824 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not to edit the file manually < 1258210837 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although a structured VCS is an idea i'm very interested in < 1258210841 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :smalltalk has that, I think < 1258210846 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least I think monticello is structured < 1258210851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like know if a variable was renamed in branch A, but another use of it was added in branch A. < 1258210868 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, there isn't any strong ai so sucks to be you :P < 1258210872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and trying to handle that would be insane < 1258210890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine being linus, I'd sure prefer one difficult merge over 6 tedious merges < 1258210897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, exactly, a hand editing file with different versions in <<<< ... ----- ... >>> style merge will always be useful sometimes < 1258210900 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I know are wasting my time with some resolutions < 1258210904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/a hand/hand/ < 1258210916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because some cases *will* otherwise need a strong ai < 1258210977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sure try to make it as smart as possible. I'm not against that. I'm just saying that there should still be an option to do a more classical manual merge of conflicts in files. Because there will be cases needing it sometimes. < 1258210989 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1258210996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not that much of an idiot, you know, to get rid of manual merges. < 1258211006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wasn't completely sure about that ;P < 1258211027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact, too-smart merges are a *bad* thing: you think that merge went through fine, but it actually messed up your source by second guessing you instead of going "hey i'm confused". < 1258211090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, asking when confused, but providing the "smart" merges as options would be useful maybe? < 1258211096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in < 1258211102 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course. < 1258211111 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'll probably have pluggagble merges. < 1258211120 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I make it. < 1258211135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"press m for manual, a for aborting merge, 1 for smart option one, 2 for other even smarter option, 3 for really cool option" < 1258211137 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What's the best protocol for rsync transport, btw? (for speed). rsync://, isn't it? < 1258211159 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that needs an rsync server set up and listening. And security is... bad. < 1258211169 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean for anonymous access. < 1258211171 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure would work for anonymous pulling < 1258211182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ssh+rsync for developer access though < 1258211183 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, you can't do rsync over http can you? < 1258211191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not afaik < 1258211202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :zsync — Optimised rsync over HTTP < 1258211202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This document describes the thinking behind zsync, a new file transfer program which implements efficient download of only the content of a file which is ... < 1258211202 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i wish i never said anything < 1258211209 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, ssh isn't really an option for anonymous pulling. < 1258211224 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, isn't it? I have seen anonymous ssh < 1258211235 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc it was openbsd or netbsd ports/pkgsrc thing < 1258211240 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that I pulled over anon ssh < 1258211243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, ssh is slow, bulky, and there's always that risk of an exploit... < 1258211247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anon ssh + cvs iirc < 1258211270 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess rsync:// for public and ssh:// for private is best. < 1258211280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can use another sshd. One that doesn't need to run as root. < 1258211296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc launchpad uses such a one < 1258211352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh. < 1258211360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why bother if rsync is faster and uses less resources? < 1258211379 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, to be fair, my distro will probably use http://matt.ucc.asn.au/dropbear/dropbear.html for the ssh/sshd by default. < 1258211386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, depends on how paranoid you and your users are < 1258211402 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If it's public it's public :P < 1258211412 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :One thing that needs to be supported is only using ssh:// for stuff that needs authentication. < 1258211422 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. have a "push" location as separate. < 1258211458 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it is for a distro you could just sign every package < 1258211481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and send it over plaintext < 1258211512 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just meant that I'll be operating the server on my distro. < 1258211521 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So technically rsync wouldn't really be lighter than dropbear sshd. < 1258211528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, maybe a signed listing with the checksums of all rsynced files? that would provide some security against tampering with the rsynced data < 1258211539 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are we talking about package distribution now? < 1258211548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no, about repos < 1258211557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I wanted to sign the packages I'd GPG-sign a file with checksums of all the files in the tree. < 1258211561 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ah. < 1258211569 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rsync:// can be tampered with in transit? < 1258211573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, to make sure that the anon checkouts weren't tampered with < 1258211577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, man in the middle attack? < 1258211579 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I don't see why you'd trust data from me anyway. :P < 1258211584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to fake your server or such < 1258211596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes, the ever-trustable, professional ehird website. < 1258211605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My reputation is through the roof. < 1258211656 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Anyway, I could just GPG-sign the hash of the commit. < 1258211664 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*PGP-sign. GPG is just an implementation... < 1258211671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no, but I might want to trust the original devs of some project using ehirdvcs. And if I happen to live in some country where someone could want to tamper with source code I want to check out and run... < 1258211672 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The hash is calculatable from the commit, so... < 1258211681 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: does any other vcs handle this? < 1258211687 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most anonymous checkouts are git:// or http://. < 1258211694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well, those that do it over https or ssh could I guess < 1258211702 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah but how many open source projects are that? < 1258211719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm let me check my current checkouts < 1258211774 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, nothing would stop you setting up an anonymous ssh account for it if you really wanted to. < 1258211779 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You'd be silly, though. < 1258211787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For most things. < 1258211804 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :URL: https://desmume.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/desmume/trunk/desmume < 1258211807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's one at least < 1258211860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah yes, DS emulators. < 1258211870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The most trust-needing pieces of software known to man. < 1258211878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well no. < 1258211880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1258211885 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know why it is that way < 1258211897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, anyway I assume this would work for any sf.net project < 1258211908 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, but nobody uses sf.net. < 1258211927 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seriously, I rarely end up there nowadays, and it's usually a last-resort grab for obscure software. < 1258211984 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1258212031 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I think I saw a few more too. Might have been llvm (don't have a trunk checkout of it around currently) < 1258212036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something else < 1258212249 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :great. error on a line but the line number not matching < 1258212256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I can't find anything like that line nearby < 1258212258 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go doesn't geet that :P < 1258212259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*get < 1258212271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, this is the MPW C compiler. < 1258212278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :complaining on line 2229 < 1258212281 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :all c compilers get it < 1258212306 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there is no #line directive in the file. And there is nothing close to it even nearby < 1258212330 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: have you tested cfunge with tcc? < 1258212355 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes, some time ago, failed to handle some C99 thing. I think it was for (int i = ....) < 1258212378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, declaring the variable there instead of at the start of the function < 1258212388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, can I try it? :P < 1258212397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bzr branch lp:cfunge right? < 1258212463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :should work < 1258212468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why the hell is: < 1258212476 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ick_createdata icd[]={ < 1258212477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :}; < 1258212481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considered invalid < 1258212484 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by the MPW compiler < 1258212488 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BECAUSE YOUR MOM < 1258212490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it barfs on }; < 1258212498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's sad < 1258212499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Error expression expected" < 1258212501 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :}; < 1258212510 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION compiles tcc with gcc, installs, compiles tcc with tcc, installs < 1258212516 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that's an expression, a sad one < 1258212520 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so that error makes no sense then < 1258212525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh wait, tcc is elf only >_< < 1258212537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, and coff < 1258212564 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, mac os 9 seems to use xcoff and PEF < 1258212566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for PPC code < 1258212614 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PEF is for executables and shared libraries. xcoff is for object files, executables and shared libraries < 1258212618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :PEF is default < 1258212631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION isn't sure why have two overlapping ones < 1258212654 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oi AnMaster, wget http://download.savannah.nongnu.org/releases/tinycc/tcc-0.9.25.tar.bz2; tar xf tcc-0.9.25.tar.bz2; cd tcc-0.9.25; ./configure --prefix=~/tcc; make; make install; cd ..; rm -rf tcc-0.9.25; tar xf tcc-0.9.25.tar.bz2; cd tcc-0.9.25; ./configure --prefix=~/tcc --cc=tcc; make; make install < 1258212655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1258212671 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I would use ~/local/tcc < 1258212674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and busy atm < 1258212676 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Then... do so :P < 1258212693 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, plus does it really work as 64-bit? < 1258212703 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION forgot < 1258212707 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TCC version 0.9.25 is the first that supports the x86-64 target. Thanks to Shinichiro Hamaji for this. < 1258212711 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shinh of golf.shinh.org < 1258212715 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :our beloved anarchy golf < 1258212723 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have quite some trust in his skills, at least. < 1258212741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or you could just build the "cross compilers". tcc itself should run on amd64 just fine. < 1258212789 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you fight considerably less with AnMaster these days, same thing happened with you and me, do you learn to love idiots, or just eventually realize at some point they won't change? < 1258212800 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1258212805 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :oklofok < 1258212814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, there might be a third option < 1258212819 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what's that < 1258212828 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that they change? yeah right < 1258212829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, that one would just upset ehird < 1258212830 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you're all growing up and becoming less stupid < 1258212837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, no that he changes < 1258212840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no,* < 1258212845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be (a) < 1258212845 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i know what you meant < 1258212852 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok already said that < 1258212864 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258212864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not really. < 1258212870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :deep, man. deep < 1258212879 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure (a) is a subset of (c) < 1258212880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i don't really argue argue with oklofok, it's more like, you know, killing each other < 1258212881 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or it could be b < 1258212889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that < 1258212892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster is like, ripping out his mother's eyeballs and stomping on them and feeding them to satan < 1258212904 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway the change here would be in like "you becoming more mature" < 1258212917 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster doesn't make it easy does he < 1258212939 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: have you noticed that the option AnMaster is proposing is a thinly-veiled "you finally realised with increased maturity that i am right" < 1258212950 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iiiiiinteresting < 1258212962 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I didn't say that. No one is static. < 1258212968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone changes. < 1258212974 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually only noticed i have a hamburger i could be eating < 1258212981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster is now a zen buddhist < 1258212987 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but maybe that is a subset of hamburger? < 1258212989 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets -> < 1258212994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1258212995 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a superset < 1258213000 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are more hamburgers you could be eating < 1258213003 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than there are hamburgers < 1258213107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually this seems to be an ick bug < 1258213114 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1258213117 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :int foo[] = {}; < 1258213120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't valid C89 is it? < 1258213132 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not < 1258213150 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what is the size of that variable < 1258213180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-std=c89 -pedantic with gcc gives: < 1258213204 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 < 1258213205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beer.c:2228: warning: ISO C forbids empty initializer braces < 1258213205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beer.c:2228: error: zero or negative size array 'icd' < 1258213216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sorry synergy copy-paste issues < 1258213219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it took some time < 1258213236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can't have a 0-sized variable! < 1258213245 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void *foo; < 1258213246 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sure you can < 1258213249 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's called *foo < 1258213263 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, only as a pointer to. But that wasn't what happened above < 1258213265 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(TURKEY_BOMB) < 1258213267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway this is an ick bug < 1258213269 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, and *foo is size 0 < 1258213271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your mom is an ick bug < 1258213278 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the actual pointer is not size 0 < 1258213304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can't have void bar; < 1258213305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either < 1258213310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in standard C at least < 1258213316 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"You're complaining about C++ taking time to compile and link? That's hard to believe." < 1258213318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :void* bar yes < 1258213322 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fig a. cracksmoker < 1258213338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, eh, that is unrelated to this right? < 1258213348 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1258213398 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This is one of the reasons Lisp doesn't get anywhere. The trend to promote features so clever that you stop thinking about your problem and start thinking about the clever features. CL's loop is so powerful that people invented functional programming so that they'd never have to use it." < 1258213500 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: hard to believe because it's like complaining about an idiot being stupid? < 1258213515 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no he told him to uses precompiled headers and a fast disk < 1258213517 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*use < 1258213526 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-_- < 1258213528 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the post was about go by the creator of bittorrent < 1258213537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they remarked how shitty C++ was for compiling so much more slowly than go < 1258213559 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yeah maybe that C++ can build in 30 seconds with that precompiled shit and the expense on a fast disk, meanwhile go did it in less than a second < 1258213570 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(go builds its entire standard library, with one core, in less than ten seconds...) < 1258213631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, does it do much optimisation? < 1258213635 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or just basic stuff < 1258213675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It does some optimisation, but the minimalist bent of the libraries and the good design mean they it's fast even with minor optimisation. < 1258213677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if that includes stuff like interprodecural optimisation, I'm extremely impressed. < 1258213686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hm < 1258213688 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It turns out that most optimisation... really doesn't make much of a difference at all. < 1258213724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, does it compile to machine code or byte code? < 1258213725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and the linker is really fast too... < 1258213728 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Machine code. < 1258213741 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Object code format is not .o, though. < 1258213754 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :...is it .go? < 1258213754 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Libraries are .a, binaries are binaries, but intermediate objects are .N where N is the number for the architecture < 1258213772 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 = 386, 8g is compiler, 8l linker, .8 objects, 8.out default obj name < 1258213775 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so has anyone implemented go in go yet < 1258213777 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same for 6 = amd64, 5 = arm < 1258213778 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean the game < 1258213781 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the plan 9 toolchain < 1258213788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 for arm? huh? < 1258213790 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean... i could be named gogo. < 1258213796 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's the actual plan9port linkers modified a bit, and compilers written in the same style as the plan 9 c compilers for the go < 1258213800 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's arbitrary :P < 1258213806 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes very < 1258213808 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8 is from x86 and 386 < 1258213811 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :6 is from 64 < 1258213813 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 who knows < 1258213816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're just names < 1258213830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is it faster than tcc? < 1258213832 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, the linker is really fast. < 1258213839 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :We're talking like instant fast. < 1258213841 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's interprocedural optimization? < 1258213842 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hell yes. < 1258213853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, tcc is fast at compiling though < 1258213859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It is probably one of the fastest compilers for a "real" language in existence. < 1258213859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I think it did ick in like 5 seconds. < 1258213859 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe the fastest. < 1258213861 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or less < 1258213870 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Whole. Standard. Library. Including creating the .a's. < 1258213873 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean can i see an example of dat < 1258213875 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In less than 10 seconds. < 1258213884 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Including make overhead. Recursive make. < 1258213889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no preprocessor I guess? < 1258213889 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: The stdlib is >100k lines of Go. < 1258213892 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In about 9 seconds. < 1258213902 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, cached in memory I assume? < 1258213906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope. < 1258213908 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From disk. < 1258213923 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, basically, the gc Go compiler can process something like 10,500 lines of code a second. < 1258213927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, fast disk then. or all in a few files < 1258213930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was it SSD? < 1258213943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may have been SSD, but I don't think so. These times are similar to those by others. < 1258213945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And no. < 1258213947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's split into many files. < 1258213950 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was a laptop. < 1258213955 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So a regular disk or SSD. Probably disk. < 1258213963 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Regardless, the source files are quite small. < 1258213971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not a lot of seeking then < 1258213977 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, not that small. < 1258213981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because disk seeks sounds like the main oerhead here < 1258213984 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Are you just trying to find excuses to say it's bad or not fast? < 1258213990 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :10,500 lines of code a second. < 1258213997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No other compiler for a real language comes anywhere near close. < 1258213998 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, no. I'm just wondering how fast. < 1258214012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Remember that this is from the guys who brought you C, Unix and Plan 9. < 1258214018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :They're *really* good at compilers and operating systems. < 1258214025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, how long did it take when the source files was cached in memory already? < 1258214026 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably the best in the world. < 1258214028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's more interesting < 1258214031 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know. < 1258214037 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://golang.org/pkg/ < 1258214040 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's the whole stdlib. < 1258214044 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Look at the package list. < 1258214056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>100,000 lines of code, in 9 seconds. Seriously, you've gotta be impressed. < 1258214065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes. But question is how impressed. < 1258214081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Past the minimum bound it's so high anyway it doesn't really matter. < 1258214148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I mean, no other compiler really comes close. < 1258214159 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not like a second or so difference will knock it off top spot. < 1258214185 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, wc -l claims ick ends up at 20998 lines. tcc managing that on a pentium3 in about 5 seconds, including link time and such isn't too bad. < 1258214206 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1258214213 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But whatever, Go is really fast. < 1258214216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, time for make on clean but configured source tree. < 1258214218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, rewatched the video. < 1258214229 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Go tree is about 120,000 lines of code, build took 9.231 seconds. < 1258214243 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Which comes to 12999.675 ~= 13,000 lines of code a second. < 1258214245 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, which is indeed impressive. But what specs was that < 1258214252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit better than a pentium3 I bet < 1258214259 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a MacBook Pro of some description, I think the 15" model < 1258214264 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Google-supplied, almost certainly < 1258214271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Since they're not really Mac guys, I'd guess < 1258214278 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So not too high specs < 1258214291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, would be better than an old dell pentium3 system with a slow pata disk in any case < 1258214314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, I concede, Go is nothing special, tcc is totally kicking awesome. Happy now? < 1258214324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I'm not saying Go is not special < 1258214347 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I agree it is impressive. But I just want to point out that it isn't *that* special. tcc manage quite well < 1258214356 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go seems faster than tcc still < 1258214366 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from some quick estimates. < 1258214390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :comparing to gcc the difference is extreme < 1258214393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You also have to remember that Go is much more intensive to compile than C. < 1258214397 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For instance, the method lookups. < 1258214398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to any C++ compiler.... < 1258214402 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The concurrency stuff. < 1258214404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :etc. < 1258214406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what about preprocessor? < 1258214418 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No preprocessor, but it does do a lot of clever dependency stuff, which is more cost. < 1258214424 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So you can't really compare it to a C compiler. < 1258214424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true. < 1258214436 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Especially not on such a pathological codebase as ick. < 1258214442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, still include files seems to take quite some time when there are many and deeply nested. < 1258214456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, nice wording :) < 1258214470 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was considering "Cthuolic" :D < 1258214487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Fun fact: The Go compiler is probably fast at least in part because it doesn't use libc.) < 1258214504 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It uses plan9port's lib9; the Plan 9 libc ported to Unixes.) < 1258214512 0 :puzzlet_!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258214515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I think that is too extreme. It is quite ok C. At least in the compiler itself. Less so in the generated code of course < 1258214525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is quite ok C? < 1258214529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, ick. < 1258214533 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :True. < 1258214534 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, parts of the compiler itself < 1258214537 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It certainly is pathological, though. < 1258214548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :((Russ Cox, the plan9port maintainer, is part of Go, but I imagine they used lib9 before that, being Plan 9 weenies)) < 1258214550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the generates parts I agree are "Cthuolic" < 1258214563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is, oil generated files, and generated c code for intercal programs < 1258214573 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oil is *definitely* "Cthuolic" < 1258214593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, is Russ Cox part of Go? < 1258214594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1258214603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. And Ken Thompson. < 1258214604 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what file is he in? < 1258214606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And Rob Pike. < 1258214608 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1258214610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hardy har har < 1258214615 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ricer.c < 1258214631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it actually took me several seconds to figure out you meant "go team" < 1258214713 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is libc really that slow? < 1258214793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nah, but it's certainly bloated, even BSD libc. < 1258214812 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Plan9port's lib9 is very lean and mean in comparison, especially since it does away with a lot of legacy interfaces and adds some of its own. < 1258214823 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://swtch.com/usr/local/plan9/src/lib9/ btw.) < 1258214919 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow bash just crashed on me < 1258214920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in ubuntu < 1258214927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :double free < 1258214983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ha < 1258214997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fun how minimalist the plan 9 c compilers are < 1258215001 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no -l, you just pass in the name of the .a < 1258215115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ick_lose(IE000, 304, " PLEASE ""KNOC""K BEFORE ENTERING\n\ < 1258215115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : "); < 1258215120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :messy < 1258215252 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258215750 0 :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1258215765 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1258215767 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: < 1258215788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hi < 1258215791 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :found some bugs in ick < 1258215795 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me pastebin a list < 1258215802 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi both of you < 1258215825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, see http://sprunge.us/TDPZ < 1258215851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there is a rather serious code gen bug at the end < 1258215852 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is that a pastebin? < 1258215860 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1258215862 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's a porn site < 1258215869 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes it is < 1258215878 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :he'll never click on any of your links again, AnMaster < 1258215879 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Things like the GNU binutils ld (and by extension, gcc) cheerfully accept plain old ".a" files too; the difference there (I think) is that if you say "libfoo.a", it'll just add all object files in foo.a, and you need "-lfoo" for the more intelligent "include objects only if they contain symbols that other files refer to" thing. < 1258215885 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does appear to be a pastebin, after all < 1258215904 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Phew. It could have been ASCII porn. Your w3m was at risk. < 1258215912 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe it's a pornbin, but AnMaster doesn't know how to use it < 1258215924 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quick, paste in the indecent (.)(.) and provide a link! < 1258215932 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the point of it is that the way to add a paste is: cat ick-mpw-issues.txt | curl -F 'sprunge=<-' http://sprunge.us < 1258215935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or similar < 1258215943 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow. < 1258215947 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Useless use of cat and curl feature. < 1258215949 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let me fix that for you. < 1258215958 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :curl -F 'sprunge=yy_is_interactive = file ? (isatty( fileno(file) ) > 0) : 0; < 1258216318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sure, but mac doesn't use autoconf, so I'll need to update config.h I guess < 1258216324 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and we want yy_is_interactive to be 0 in that case < 1258216337 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I told you autotools was unacceptable < 1258216339 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but did you listen?! < 1258216341 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: no, it isn't < 1258216347 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't support mac os! < 1258216353 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :platforms on which it doesn't run can have their own config.h bundled < 1258216362 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could have written a nice, portable k&r c configurator with just a few times more work and provided an EQUAL EXPERIENCE TO EVERYONE < 1258216365 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, http://sprunge.us/UIaA < 1258216365 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1258216369 0 :ehird!n=ehird@91.105.120.35 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258216370 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, tell me how bad that diff looks < 1258216384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, one is generated on *nix the other on mac < 1258216387 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll shut up if y'all help me find out how to get files into a vm so i can get ick working < 1258216388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1258216388 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.. < 1258216390 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. < 1258216391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : < 1258216393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WITH SYSTEM 6 < 1258216397 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the ick_abstained line looks very wrong < 1258216404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, do you have a volume called "unix"? < 1258216408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the vm < 1258216415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, or maybe that needs system 7 < 1258216417 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't set it up yet < 1258216419 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ooh, it looks like the mac version isn't linking in syslib < 1258216424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, otherwise hmount to mount and copy it over < 1258216443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it should be. it complained about that first but I copied syslib to the current directory, and it stopped complaining < 1258216465 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, the mac version has an E000 error on /every single line/ < 1258216477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes. Any idea what might be wrong basically < 1258216493 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lexing failure < 1258216500 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or possibly a really persistent parsing failure, but that's less likely < 1258216507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway tht isatty line, I think it complained about fileno too. something about fileno prototype not matching < 1258216511 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it didn't link syslib because it was unreferenced < 1258216527 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define isatty 0 < 1258216528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and things complain about getc being defined in standard library as well as in lexer.c < 1258216530 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :problem solved < 1258216532 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here we go. < 1258216538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry, < 1258216542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define isatty(x) 0 < 1258216542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, saying that it is undefined which is called < 1258216560 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh, I /knew/ that getc hack would come back to bite us more than once < 1258216577 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it wasn't me who wrote it originally, but it's really hacky and looks really problematic < 1258216579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what does that getc thing do? < 1258216589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that the normal one doesn't < 1258216592 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: basically, getc is a macro < 1258216596 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so C-INTERCAL #undefs it < 1258216600 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and substitutes its own getc < 1258216619 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this has already lead to a problem once with the new getc calling itself recursively, which I fixed by bypassing stdio on file read < 1258216628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no it isn't iirc. the mac claims it is a function in the libc thingy < 1258216635 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it seems it's lead to another one where getc isn't actually a macro < 1258216675 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION installs System 6 < 1258216677 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could fix it using the C++ keyword hack < 1258216678 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why not just rename the function if you need the special version... < 1258216683 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I have no idea < 1258216693 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't write C-INTERCAL originally < 1258216702 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably because it would be too hard to get traditional lexen using some other function < 1258216722 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, #define getc overriden_getc should work < 1258216740 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can get it to the top of lexer.c somehow < 1258216752 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, huh? what does c++ has to do with this < 1258216755 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: did you run sheepshaver at >original speed? < 1258216765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, eh? I never saw that option < 1258216770 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mini vmac does 8x unless you change it, which is nice but doesn't feel kosher :P < 1258216777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I use the svn version of sheepshaver with experimental JIT support < 1258216793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :circa 2006 < 1258216793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not very svn < 1258216793 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is quite reasonably fast < 1258216793 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok so fast then < 1258216794 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well yeah < 1258216819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it runs about the same speed as my old ibook. A little faster for some stuff (boots faster, probably due to faster disk) but a little slower for some other stuff < 1258216825 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like graphics < 1258216830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, game graphics < 1258216835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the GUI is snappy < 1258216892 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway, I did get beer.c generated on unix and with that code gen bug fixed to compile on mac against libick. Worked. As an MPW tool too < 1258216893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ImportFl is an application to use in Mini vMac (version 3.0.0 or later) to import files into the emulated computer from the real computer. < 1258216893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When ImportFl is the active application running in the emulated computer, then any of the methods normally used to mount a disk image will instead import a file. For example, dragging the icon of the file to be imported into the Mini vMac window. < 1258216893 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :warning: When attempting to use ImportFl, if you see a dialog asking if you want to initialize the disk, choose “Eject”, not “Initialize”! This will happen if ImportFl is not actually the active application, in which case the file you are attempting to import is treated as a disk image. Choosing “Initialize” will turn it into a valid disk image, destroying parts of the previous content. < 1258216896 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ImportFl is mostly useful for importing archives, since it only imports the data fork of a file, not Macintosh specific information such as the resource fork, the file type, the file creator, and comments. < 1258216899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sweet! < 1258216918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so if I can get the odd bug in that diff fixed so it can actually generate correct code itself.. < 1258216929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I have no clue what could be wrong there < 1258216969 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that could be wrong where? < 1258217007 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OHO, found it < 1258217027 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn, running MPW will be such such fun in this tiny, black-and-white display < 1258217035 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :newline mapping for ick: \n becomes \n, \r\n becomes \n, \r\r becomes \r, \r on its own becomes a null string < 1258217043 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is correct for Windows and DOS, but not classic Mac < 1258217057 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, indeed. Where does one fix it. Needs to be fixed for ick and for oil < 1258217071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bin2c seems to work fine < 1258217091 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for ick, it can be fixed inside getc by swapping \n and \r immediately before the if (bangflag) check < 1258217103 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's in lexer.l) < 1258217109 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, um I have both CR and LF files < 1258217118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I need it to handle both < 1258217125 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what bbedit lite do you have? < 1258217130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: does ick work on a CR INTERCAL file? does it work on an LF INTERCAL file? < 1258217134 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, 4.6, why? < 1258217138 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :darn, too new < 1258217145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The Wayback Machine is down for scheduled maintenance. < 1258217146 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :RAGE < 1258217152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, neither. But "doesn't work" in different ways < 1258217158 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the two sorts of error? < 1258217171 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the diff you showed me is clearly the wrong line ending, as none of the lines parsed at all < 1258217186 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which would hide all the other errors; if you're compiling every line into a syntax error, most of the code never runs < 1258217190 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the error in the other case would be more interesting < 1258217195 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, with \n it seems like those comments containing the original intercal each contain the whole original file with newlines stripped < 1258217203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't look too closely < 1258217205 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :found it! < 1258217208 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION downloads bbedit < 1258217216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, remember that \r and \n are swapped by the standard library < 1258217230 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ooh < 1258217236 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that makes a lot of sense, actually < 1258217246 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's failing to parse both ways roudn < 1258217248 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*round < 1258217257 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the error message is the /line/ of the original source that wasn't parsed < 1258217282 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: can you run a simple file with \r line endings through ick -d, and paste the corresponding debug output? < 1258217287 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a simple INTERCAL file, that is < 1258217288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes. And I only tried all LF and all CR. I guess I could try all possible combos for ick-wrap.c syslib.i and beer.i < 1258217300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, give me a short one then < 1258217307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beer.i is long < 1258217314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, shortest possible one would be nice < 1258217338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: pit/tests/limits.i is probably about the right length < 1258217350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Size: 872K < 1258217350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Type: Evaluation Copy < 1258217350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Registration Fee is $30.00 after 15 days < 1258217350 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Minimum Requirements: < 1258217351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : · System 6 < 1258217351 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Download Time: 5 minutes at 28.8 kbps < 1258217352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This software is Year 2000 compliant. < 1258217354 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :—http://download.mindspring.com/mac/stuffitlite.html < 1258217367 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: are you planning to pay the reg fee? < 1258217371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so -c -d ? < 1258217377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or exactly what flags < 1258217379 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: -d implies -c < 1258217380 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I don't think they'd let me even if I wanted to. < 1258217382 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :do just -d by itself < 1258217384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, right < 1258217390 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"StuffItLite36_Installer.sit" < 1258217406 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION facepalm < 1258217410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is spewing output to my mpw worksheet. Guess I'll redirect it < 1258217423 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guys, laugh. < 1258217423 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: if that means what I think it means, I agree < 1258217431 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.sit is indeed the Stuffit format < 1258217435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, :P < 1258217443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that stdout or stderr? < 1258217455 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I can't remember offhand < 1258217460 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably stderr, though < 1258217462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION picks up an hqx bbedit until that conundrum is sollve < 1258217467 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/sollve/solved/ < 1258217476 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Argh. < 1258217481 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hqxs just turn into .sits < 1258217503 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? < 1258217508 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"turn into"? < 1258217525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OS X expanding them < 1258217527 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they contain .sits < 1258217528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, both < 1258217529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so forget that < 1258217534 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what stuffit you got < 1258217536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and I can't redirect both to same file it seems < 1258217544 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :redirect them to different files then < 1258217548 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, 7.something < 1258217549 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the relative order isn't all that important < 1258217554 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1258217574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do you want the file itself too? < 1258217589 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just the stderr/stdout output < 1258217598 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cat them together to save pastebin space < 1258217603 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.jagshouse.com/software/StuffItExpander351.sea < 1258217606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.sea, that sounds better < 1258217609 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Self-extracting archive < 1258217656 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For *really* old .sit files you can just use the "macunpack" tool from the "macutils" collection to unpack. (Personally it hasn't eaten most web-downloaded .sit files I've found, though.) < 1258217657 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No luck. < 1258217670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, stdout: http://sprunge.us/WNGO < 1258217672 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Guess I need the rfork. < 1258217683 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, stderr: http://sprunge.us/NDVB < 1258217692 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, probably uses CR those files < 1258217710 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"yylex: bad char 0xd" < 1258217716 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that explains the errors, at least < 1258217730 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that was CR. I'm pretty sure < 1258217753 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :solution here seems to be to set both 0xa and 0xd to the same value in the parser < 1258217755 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*lexer < 1258217764 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sounds hackish? < 1258217769 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but okay < 1258217775 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1258217782 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :W [\ \t\n]* < 1258217783 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :D [0-9][\ \t\n0-9]* < 1258217789 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in those lines in lexer.l, change \n to \n\r < 1258217799 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that "W" means "whitespace", it's OK to consider \r as whitespace i think < 1258217801 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*I think < 1258217808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, lexer.l? < 1258217812 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: src/lexer.l < 1258217815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1258217816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's what you compile to create lexer.c < 1258217852 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :change it over on a Linux system, then do make repoupdate < 1258217858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes of course < 1258217858 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get a new prebuild lexer.c < 1258217863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is D? < 1258217879 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :digits followed by optional whitespace < 1258217895 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, my lexer.c differs in more than that from the pre-built, it has some IA64 #ifdefs now < 1258217896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1258217905 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1258217906 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and right, I need to change the isatty to 0 again < 1258217909 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That looks more like "digits with maybe whitespace between them too". < 1258217921 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: oh, ofc < 1258217928 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :INTERCAL has its own attitude to whitespace insensitivity < 1258217955 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A bit funny that "12 \n\r\r\r\n 34 \n\n\n\n" is a single token. < 1258217981 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YES < 1258217982 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A BIN < 1258218013 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdhf < 1258218017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the resource fork won't copy < 1258218036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, still the getc warning < 1258218047 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: sorear's interpretation of the INTERCAL spec is that whitespace is allowed even inside comments < 1258218047 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about it being defined in StdCLib < 1258218058 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: write #define getc getc_override just after #undef getc < 1258218060 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in lexer.c < 1258218069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm ok < 1258218070 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AHA < 1258218071 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rename to .dmg < 1258218073 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And you can mount it < 1258218095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so what should I test now? < 1258218127 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: whether you can now compile that test program and get something other than infinite syntax errors < 1258218212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, now I get the same error as on unix. that is the code gen bug < 1258218226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :will manually fix that empty array and retry < 1258218247 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :try with -c < 1258218251 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and see if the resulting C file is reasonable < 1258218287 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, got Stuffit and BBEdit Lite. < 1258218301 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey! That "use mkisofs/genisoimage to make a HFS cd image so that I can get my separate 'foo' data and '._foo' resource forks joined together" trick I did with Glider 4 was probably unnecessary; I just noticed that the "macstream" make-a-MacBinary-file has a support for split files; if an input file ends with .info, it reads the corresponding .data and .rsrc files too. < 1258218435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, beer now works < 1258218437 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: do you think 4 megs of ram is enough to compile ick? < 1258218441 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as an mpw tool yes < 1258218448 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: yes, probably < 1258218454 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yay < 1258218456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, -c will always be needed on classic mac btw < 1258218462 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-c? < 1258218467 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: generate C, not a binary < 1258218469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and it should output the commands to compile it to stdout < 1258218477 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'ma gonna put some stuff on my totally p!!mp!n mac and then yeah mpw it up < 1258218480 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, reason is that MPW tools can't invoke other MPW tools < 1258218501 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :commands to compile are already available < 1258218510 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I forget which variable they're in < 1258218536 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well the standard ones won't work. like you can't do -Ifoo/ you do -i :foo: < 1258218539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the space is required < 1258218552 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like we'll need a #ifdef somewhere for the platform < 1258218552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for -L I haven't found that < 1258218557 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you must give full path < 1258218565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually no < 1258218570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you should use the standard variables < 1258218598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like "{PPCLibraries}"PPCToolLibs.o < 1258218601 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for that library < 1258218618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and you need to specify the c library to the linker < 1258218623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and compiler can't call linker < 1258218631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me copy over the commands I used to test that < 1258218733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, http://sprunge.us/JVAa < 1258218736 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is what it looks like < 1258218765 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ick-wrap.c and syslib.i were in current directory < 1258218798 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1258218838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and beer is compiled as an MPW tool. Which might be a suboptimal solution. Possibly a free standing program is better. To prevent it from locking up MPW in case of bugs < 1258218851 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm < 1258218884 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, could use that SIOW thing which does IO in a window for you. To emulate a "glass teletype" I think the term was in the docs for that bit < 1258219157 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's on Mac. Bugs can lock up the whole OS. < 1258219162 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... And kill your cat. < 1258219207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq, well, as in "waiting for IO means you can't quit it" < 1258219224 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. Simpler bugs than "while(true);" < 1258219309 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I heard a story somewhere about macs that kept breaking a certain computer network < 1258219318 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ages ago) < 1258219352 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nice hex editor... < 1258219353 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it turned out they didn't respond to the network while a user was looking at a menu < 1258219357 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :causing lockups < 1258219357 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Will install this XLisp thing then go on to < 1258219358 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DUN DUN DUN < 1258219360 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MPW < 1258219388 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Speaking of the emulators (BasiliskII, SheepShaver), did you happen to try out the networking parts? < 1258219416 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BasiliskII can do tcp/ip i believe; there's a twitter client < 1258219449 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, slight issue. < 1258219453 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does MPW actually run on System 6? < 1258219463 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1258219486 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :3.1 and under were System 6-only, even. < 1258219602 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This XLisp seems quite good. < 1258219618 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Calculated (fact 100) and all. < 1258219619 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BasiliskII can do networking, in theory, but it's awfully outdated. There's a custom kernel module (sheep_net) to make it attach to a real Ethernet interface, but I'm not sure it'll compile with anything modern; there's also an ethertap-based virtual networking thing, but it tries to use the obsoleted /dev/tapN devices (nowadays you have to open /dev/net/tun and do an ioctl); and the third option is a bit undocumented thing that sort-of seems to send all the < 1258219619 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :outgoing ethernet packets tunneled in broadcast UDP packets, which is not very standard (or easy-to-plug-into-routing) either. < 1258219633 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Maybe there are some modernization patches in the webs, though. < 1258219646 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1258219725 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, time for serious stuff. < 1258219776 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: are you ready to support a user with an emulated Mac Plus with 100 MiB of DISK, 4 MiB of RAM (8 MiB maximum addressable), Macintosh System Software 6.0.8, Macintosh Programmer's Workshop something and a copy of the latest-'n-greatest C-INTERCAL? < 1258219804 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably not, but I'll probably try anyway < 1258219823 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With a black-and-white 512x342 display, at that. < 1258219825 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Very infuriating. < 1258219837 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: When did C-INTERCAL originate? < 1258219859 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION checks < 1258219865 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: Speaking of the emulators (BasiliskII, SheepShaver), did you happen to try out the networking parts? <-- yes < 1258219867 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :worked fine < 1258219872 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :slirp or something like that iirc < 1258219893 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :version 0.3, the earliest I've managed to find, was dated 12 May 1990 < 1258219912 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Same year as the last update of this System 6! If only esr was a Macintosh user. < 1258219919 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1258219920 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this as in < 1258219922 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the copy I have < 1258219933 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gah, this means I'm older than C-INTERCAL < 1258219937 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's something wrong with that < 1258219951 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dude, I'm younger than Agora < 1258219953 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's freakier < 1258219991 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm younger than my own father < 1258219996 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :! < 1258220051 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258220239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, slirp works fine for internet explorer 5.1 btw < 1258220252 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what files did you download to get mpw? < 1258220254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err 4.x maybe < 1258220268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the main mpw img (iirc) plus various updates to it < 1258220270 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see apples page < 1258220272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sec for link < 1258220280 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it's too recent < 1258220290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that's what I used < 1258220294 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://developer.apple.com/tools/mpw-tools/ < 1258220311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, if it is too recent or not wasn't in the original question < 1258220314 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lists.apple.com/archives/MPW-Dev/2003/Jan/msg00029.html >_< < 1258220332 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.macintoshgarden.org/apps/macintosh-programmers-workshop-30-31 < 1258220334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fucking < 1258220334 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACE < 1258220389 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wow, it's a CD-ROM. < 1258220393 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Seedy ROM. < 1258220426 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what's SADE < 1258220434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, ? < 1258220444 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mpw < 1258220448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :never heard of SADE < 1258220448 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :macbugs, mpw, resedit, sade < 1258220452 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some debugger thing < 1258220484 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MPW 3.1 + ResEdit 1.2. < 1258220487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I hate debuggers. < 1258220491 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Copy time! < 1258220569 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, macsbug breaks under sheepshaver, because it needs better emulation of hardware < 1258220583 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sheepshaver and basiliskII both take some shortcuts with the MacOS ROM iirc < 1258220589 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so they don't have to emulate all hardware < 1258220618 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not sure if macsbug work under basiliskII < 1258220619 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ResEdit is there but not MPW. I'll try copying again. < 1258220625 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Mini vMac is full emulation < 1258220627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I have resedit < 1258220630 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is why you can't futz with the screen res etc < 1258220631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, true < 1258220640 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, um. why? < 1258220654 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Right, my BasiliskII README just doesn't say anything about it; now that you mention it, I guess I remember seeing it in the config dialog thing. MacTCP or OpenTransport inside, though? < 1258220655 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it requires ROM hacks, and it's meant to be authentic (it breaks some shit). < 1258220675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sheepshaver. OS 9. That means opentransport is the only thing < 1258220677 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You use Mini vMac with ROMs straight from a real Mac, fully-emulated. < 1258220682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, never tried network under basiliskII < 1258220708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, right. < 1258220735 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1258220739 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MPW was right behind the system folder < 1258220744 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, hah < 1258220760 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Ah, okay. I was thinking of this System 7; I installed both MacTCP, OpenTransport and the "Network Software Selector", and I remember it working just fine in the Performa (there was a control strip thing that could be used to select the TCP stack), but in this emulated thing I don't seem to be able to find the selector, just the MacTCP parts. < 1258220762 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, non-icon view. Why didn't I switch to that earlier? < 1258220787 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, there it is. < 1258220791 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1258220795 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what app do you start to start MPW? MPW Shell? < 1258220809 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Holy fucking shit... < 1258220817 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Last modified Friday, December 15th, 1989. < 1258220821 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: ↑ < 1258220833 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1258220838 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: It's somehow more intimidating than the vintage Unix. < 1258220845 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's ... so close that it must be so ... far? < 1258220868 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: what app do you start to start MPW? MPW Shell? <-- yes? < 1258220889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, actually no, I double click my makefile, so current working directory is correct < 1258220890 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaand we're loaded < 1258220900 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that opens in mpw shell < 1258220906 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Shall I try a hello world mmhm? < 1258220928 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, sure. You will need SIOW or MPW tool for it to work under 68k < 1258220938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise the output goes nowhere < 1258220944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is pre-PPC. < 1258220956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :All anyone had was 68k. < 1258220956 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*has was < 1258220956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes. But SIOW is for 68k too < 1258220959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is SIOW? < 1258220966 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: even C is an oddity, as these macs did Pascal < 1258220981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, some code to wrap a portable C app so standard IO goes to a window < 1258220987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to/from I guess < 1258220994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can't pass command line parameters < 1258220994 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1258221005 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Third-party code, I guess? < 1258221005 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you need that, MPW tool is your only option < 1258221013 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does MPW tool have any downsides? < 1258221014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there is an example included with both MPW and one with codewarrior < 1258221044 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, yes: you run inside mpw, so you can't call another mpw tool, and memory leaks will as far as I understand affect mpw < 1258221049 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and you can easily lock up mpw < 1258221079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, however you can use a normal program + some resources for it. At least under PPC. Not sure if it works the same for 68k < 1258221092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: would you accept a patch to C-INTERCAL that let you configure that args are from stdin? < 1258221094 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :instead of argc and argv < 1258221099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in config.h < 1258221112 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, patches to make things configurable are always fine < 1258221121 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as long as they don't change the default < 1258221122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, um. ick as MPW tool works fine < 1258221124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just fine < 1258221124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1258221130 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and don't do anything else ridiculous < 1258221130 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: zzo38 would have a field day < 1258221132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I will soon prepare my patch to ais523 < 1258221135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But I want separate apps! < 1258221147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, for a compiler it is useful as an MPW tool < 1258221151 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for the generated apps it isn't < 1258221188 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway, what about a patch for lexer.c? < 1258221190 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Drag the source file to the Compile with Ick icon. A new icon should appear, named INTERCAL Application. Rename it to what you want and drag it somewhere." < 1258221194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you mentioned autoconf stuff < 1258221211 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is iit useful as an MPW tool? < 1258221214 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it < 1258221216 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, you can't call the MPW C compiler from outside MPW iirc < 1258221225 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you need to somehow open MPW and run it there. < 1258221231 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe applescript could do it < 1258221233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure < 1258221233 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But you said it doesn't work calling the cc anyway. < 1258221252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well as an external app you could possibly do it < 1258221258 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you have multitasking back there < 1258221267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, oh btw does your MPW have something called "toolserver"? < 1258221273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so you might have a chance < 1258221291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, and no apple script you can pretty much forget calling compiler for the user < 1258221292 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How would I find out? < 1258221314 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, toolserver would be in same dir as mpw shell < 1258221316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least for me < 1258221317 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have ick as an MPW Tool and it can't call cc you said. < 1258221319 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't like kanye west's music. < 1258221319 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So that's not an advantage. < 1258221331 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And didn't you say the arguments had to be existing files? < 1258221357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : You have ick as an MPW Tool and it can't call cc you said. <-- no but command line args work, and you can use the make stuff in mpw and so on. It integrates just like the C compiler does < 1258221391 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You have to write support code though, right? < 1258221397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, and arguments = existing files was for normal programs < 1258221400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not for mpw tools < 1258221404 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah. < 1258221406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, not much actually. < 1258221407 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fine, then. < 1258221413 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :How do I make an MPW Tool Hello World? < 1258221418 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This interface is inscrutable. < 1258221423 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there is an example with my mpw version < 1258221440 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Example projects, certainly; I just don't know how to go about creating one of my own. < 1258221463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I figured that out from the example programs though :P < 1258221473 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, what will my output applications do? < 1258221478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, standard C program, compile C file, some special linker flags, some special resources (Using Rez) < 1258221478 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Use that other one? < 1258221498 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I don't even know how to say "Here, give me a new project". < 1258221499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, IO goes to MPW shell. < 1258221509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, there is no project. Write a makefile < 1258221509 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes... you said MPW Tool is good for ick... < 1258221512 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the resulting programs... < 1258221536 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION creates Six:Code < 1258221542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, well bad for resulting program because standard input is weird for them. And it is easy to lock up MPW < 1258221557 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So... why not make it non-MPW Tool? < 1258221562 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so far I did them as MPW tools however. For reasons of ease of testing < 1258221568 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what would that be? < 1258221569 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, okay. < 1258221572 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The other thing. < 1258221579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, free standing apps? < 1258221583 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No. < 1258221584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with the SIOW thing? < 1258221586 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1258221591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, that's a free standing app < 1258221594 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1258221596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean < 1258221599 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I misunderstood. < 1258221603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SIOW is some stuff you link to your app < 1258221608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, what do I write first? I have Six:Code:Hello MPW. < 1258221610 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Makefile? C file? < 1258221610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't looked into the details of that yet < 1258221614 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Open MPW?) < 1258221626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, open mpw and create a c file and a make file? < 1258221629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1258221637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now I'm busy preparing a patch. Kay? < 1258221644 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, that's kind of the thing in that I don't have a clue how. < 1258221670 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also there are projects < 1258221674 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Projects → New Project..." < 1258221685 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*Project → < 1258221759 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, didn't use that < 1258221766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay. < 1258221783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, File → New... "hello.c", I guess. < 1258221803 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about oil needing \r in the *.oil file? < 1258221816 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does my C file need special magic or can I just stdio 'er up? < 1258221816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how would I fix it to work with both < 1258221819 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you could probably fix that much the same way in oil.y < 1258221842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that is not lex. that's yacc. That's different isn't it? < 1258221855 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oil.y doesn't use lex at all < 1258221858 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has a hand-built lexer < 1258221878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so I guess that is where it needs to be fixed? < 1258221907 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does my C file need special magic or can I just stdio 'er up? < 1258221947 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1258221949 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes < 1258221983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm afraid the mac makefile probably requires CR line endings. I'm not sure. Still patch doesn't like it very much... < 1258222017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: even if you tell it to ignore whitespace < 1258222019 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1258222019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION tests < 1258222020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oi < 1258222031 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: I have no idea what you mean, if that question was directed at me < 1258222037 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1258222091 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, actually MPW seems happy with LF line endings heh < 1258222099 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AAAAAAAAAAANMAAAAAAAAASTER < 1258222184 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ^ < 1258222209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about ick_numerals being defined in both cesspool.c and numerals.c ? < 1258222221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, got a huge warning about that < 1258222224 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: don't bother, I think he's ignoring me either mentally or technologically < 1258222227 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought that was correct, maybe not though < 1258222238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Does my C file need special magic or can I just stdio 'er up? <-- try it and see? < 1258222255 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, maybe they should be static? Or one should be extern? < 1258222269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't remember offhand, and I'm busy with something else < 1258222271 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well for one I have no idea what fucked up makefile syntax is used... < 1258222364 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, look at examples in MPW? That's what I did < 1258222374 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tried to but the interface makes no sense. < 1258222379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I based mine on that and then rewrote it and rewrote it < 1258222381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, what interface? < 1258222385 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MPW < 1258222387 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the editor window? < 1258222395 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, it's just an editor window for the makefile < 1258222409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, the worksheet is like a cross between a crippled shell and *scratch* in emacs < 1258222421 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cmd-enter to execute current line or selected textr < 1258222424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :text* < 1258222528 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the patch is at http://omploader.org/vMnJxeg (didn't want pastebin due to possible stripping whitespaces and such, this should be binary-safe) < 1258222553 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's called ick < 1258222556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, note that this still needs some fix for lexer.c's isatty() and for oil < 1258222579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, eh? yes ick is called ick < 1258222590 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION downloads it < 1258222596 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+# ICK Makefile for MPW < 1258222603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and it would need some handling for "not invoking compiler" too < 1258222643 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, still this works for me on a real mac. Sheepshaver crashes on compiling convickt.c, but it works fine to use an object file from a real mac for that one < 1258222659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes work in progress. But it is a beginning < 1258222661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :convickt's optional, you could just remove it altogether without affecting the main program < 1258222712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and yes this needs syslib.i and such copied around. There is no real concept of install targets anyway. But yes some work on that needs to be done. Still a first milestone is reached :) < 1258222888 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The application 'unknown' has unexpectedly quit, because an error of type 3 occurred." Heh. < 1258222897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what did you do? < 1258222938 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Tried to run Ircle 3.1.2 68k in BasiliskII, to test out that networking thing. < 1258222984 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258222994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258223020 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :going off to get dinner, I'll be back in a bit < 1258223025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, cya < 1258223056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway sheepshaver likes to crash at least once during a full build anyway. Just not 100% reproducible. < 1258223067 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and file system isn't journaled no < 1258223086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I ended up having to boot from a cd image once today to fix things < 1258223122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :turned out desktop db file was badly damaged. Oh and a few tiles object files have been half written or such. < 1258223218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, did you figure out that Project menu? < 1258223228 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nah < 1258223242 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird, I think it is for some old and obsolete source control system < 1258223244 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Heh, Ircle 3.1f3 68k: "Sorry, a system error occurred. "ircle 3.1 British 68k" numeric overflow [Restart]". I have a feeling that emulator is not the stablest piece of work ever. < 1258223248 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258223252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I read something about that somewhere < 1258223264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you only now discovered that? < 1258223281 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Hey, it ran my Glider game just fine. Besides, after a restart starting ircle seems to work. < 1258223331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess you could rewrite it to a codewarrior project, but I don't think you can generate files as you go along then < 1258223353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it would be a PITA for everyone to find that and install < 1258223367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what with not being freely available easily < 1258223381 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1258223584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can't find where in oil.y to add \r < 1258223662 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lines 383 and 700 < 1258223667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think < 1258223789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm now this always confuse me in C. Operator precedence between == and &&. Can never remember that. < 1258223829 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :== binds tighter < 1258223841 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is that one hard to remember? logical operators are lowest of all < 1258223854 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the possibly confusing relation is that == binds tighter than &, maybe that's what was confusing you < 1258223864 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(well, ?: and , are even lower. but not ==) < 1258223899 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1258223912 0 :fizzircle!n=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1258223942 0 :fizzircle!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yay, MacTCP was a much better choice. < 1258224202 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzircle: are you online from a mac < 1258224204 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or emulated one? < 1258224369 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1258224384 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1258224621 0 :fizzircle!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523> An emulated one, with BasiliskII. < 1258224632 0 :fizzircle!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm, the colon is not where it should be. < 1258224662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that oil fix seems to work < 1258224675 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzircle, I had to rewrite the keymap file for sheepshaver a lot < 1258224680 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to get anything to work < 1258224694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and it tries to use keysym by default. Doesn't work well at all < 1258224737 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This has some rendering issues in the input line window: http://zem.fi/~fis/ircle.png < 1258225149 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about the getc_override? Is it generic enough to work on *nix too? < 1258225161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, although it's probably worth guarding it anyway < 1258225170 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it's liable to break other things at random, being a rather crude hack < 1258225180 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :admittedly, the existing situation is /also/ a crude hack... < 1258225181 0 :Rugxulo!n=chatzill@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258225196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, can't you rewrite it to not be such a crude hack < 1258225200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, bbiab food < 1258225214 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: is Interfunge supposed to accept input in Befunge programs? < 1258225250 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: yes < 1258225258 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, note that the input program must be /exactly/ 80x24 < 1258225265 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pad lines with spaces if needed < 1258225281 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :eh? < 1258225301 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to work on normal Befunge93 programs but not with "~" or "&" < 1258225377 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :&:*.@ < 1258225389 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work < 1258225406 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5:*.@ < 1258225408 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does < 1258225416 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@62.119.155.253 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258225577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, um. Did you pad it up to the required size first? < 1258225598 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the Befunge program itself?? I just now tried that, it didn't seem to help < 1258225606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mhm < 1258225633 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it's hard to tell if I did it correctly or not (since either way it didn't work) < 1258225715 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I have no idea how to go about the isatty thingy in autoconf. I could do a MPW specific hack. Or I could let you do it, < 1258225726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, note that fileno inside it is unistd.h too < 1258225756 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1258225760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*is POSIX too* < 1258225762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what I meant < 1258225774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for some reason that didn't give any error on the mac though. Maybe it has the function, it might or might not do the same thing < 1258225981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ick is still broken for LF input. The huge comment thing still applies < 1258225993 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, ok < 1258226000 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sort-of makes sense < 1258226019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it treats the entire thing as one line if input is in LF < 1258226024 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so why did that happen < 1258226034 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beacuse the entire thing is one line < 1258226061 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you'd think that would explain it < 1258226140 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I dislike Hive Rise < 1258226143 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not enough people play it < 1258226152 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm going to fiddle with Shattered Galaxy < 1258226184 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, shouldn't ick have at least one Befunge and one Unlambda example to test the interpreters (interfunge.i, unlambda.i) ?? < 1258226194 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I thought the lexer was supposed to understand both CR and LF now after the change? < 1258226203 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it does < 1258226209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so why doesn't it work then. < 1258226209 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, that doesn't change the definition of what a line is < 1258226210 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? < 1258226219 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :n/m < 1258226221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, which is? < 1258226226 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: between newlines < 1258226230 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or between \r on a Mac) < 1258226238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and how do you fix the lexer to handle that? < 1258226259 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so newlines can be any of \r \n and \r\n < 1258226267 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all cfunge manages it, can't see why flex shouldn't < 1258226285 0 :Dav1d!n=Dav1d@78.52.122.247 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258226297 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it is not wrong < 1258226305 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, um. What? < 1258226310 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :displaying all of a program with no newlines as one line is not wrong < 1258226315 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if \r is a newline on a Mac, \n isn't < 1258226329 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well also it generates wrong code. A huge ick_lose for the whole thing < 1258226345 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :surely that is more than just "displaying" < 1258226347 0 :Dav1d!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1258226366 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it generates correct code with correct newlines? < 1258226380 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ick isn't like cfunge, it wants input files to use platform-appropriate newlines < 1258226385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm < 1258226674 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but what if a platform uses both? < 1258226692 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no platform uses inconsistent newlines < 1258226705 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as in "both is allowed" < 1258226713 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no platform does that < 1258226719 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it would make no sense < 1258226722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and there seems to be a compiler option for this \n <-> \r translation < 1258226728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes it can be inconsistent < 1258226743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if I use it only for some of the files < 1258226745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1258226779 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also can convickt do CR<->LF? < 1258226786 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it would seem fit for old mac < 1258226820 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not yet, but it would be easy enough to code it to do so < 1258226830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258226835 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :does old mac use ASCII? < 1258226848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes but not ISO-whatever < 1258226851 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it uses MacRoman < 1258226889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for example åäö are encoded differently < 1258226906 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1258226917 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_Roman < 1258227019 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the makefile syntax makes use of some of those < 1258227037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as you might have seen in that patch < 1258227070 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/dos/cpi/old/cpimac12.zip ;-) < 1258227120 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, hm? < 1258227133 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh nothing, just DOS spam < 1258227147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely irrelevant to making the convickt mapping < 1258227201 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I have no clue how to make the convickt mapping. Since it isn't a 1:1 mapping with any charset I assume you have to go by unicode < 1258227231 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: all you really need is equivalents for the characters used by INTERCAL < 1258227244 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that pure ASCII? < 1258227248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION forgot < 1258227252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not quite < 1258227259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some characters are represented differently in different charsets < 1258227266 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. mingle is ¢ in EBCDIC and $ in ASCII < 1258227296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so what is not available in ASCII? As the lower 127 chars in MacRoman are identical to ASCII < 1258227317 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: not quite, \n and \r are the other way round < 1258227379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, not really. It is just that which one is used for newline has changed. And that the C compiler does the same sort of tricks as is done on windows for \n <-> \r\n < 1258227405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so you have a \n <-> \r\n mapping for windows too? < 1258227430 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I just ignore lone \r characters < 1258227437 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, \r not followed by \r < 1258227444 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so \r\n becomes just \n < 1258227455 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do you do that even on linux? < 1258227462 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if so, that seems wrong. < 1258227466 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since that isn't the native newline < 1258227470 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that you mentioned above < 1258227543 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@62.119.155.253 JOIN :#esoteric < 1258227708 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well? do you do that on linux too? < 1258227716 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1258227733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wrong. If LF should be forbidden on mac it should be consistent at least for all platforms. < 1258227738 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO < 1258227752 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lone CR's forbidden on Windows and Linux... < 1258227768 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but \r\n should be forbidden too on windows < 1258227771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1258227774 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i assume it would be hideously un-INTERCALish to borrow the python universal-newline convention :D < 1258227774 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on linux < 1258227778 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and only be allowed on windows < 1258227797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, by the same logic < 1258227817 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, maybe < 1258227822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you don't change it to act that way, you are just being completely inconsistent. < 1258227824 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there isn't windows/linux detection code in there yet < 1258227828 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I haven't built it on Windows for ages < 1258227840 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even GCC can now handle various newlines < 1258227852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, this is INTERCAL. Shush. < 1258227863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still I don't find this restriction very intercal-ish < 1258227886 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :BTW, Esolang wiki page on Nouse has a broken link (Geocities), i.e. any Geocities links are dead now and should be changed or removed < 1258227893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway does intercal make use of any code above 127? < 1258227899 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't get a straight answer to that one < 1258227907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: depends on the charset < 1258227916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, normal. Native one on linux < 1258227920 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without the CLC-INTERCAL charset option, no < 1258227923 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with that option, yes < 1258227938 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so what apart from the \r\n swap would be needed. < 1258227941 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: nothing < 1258227950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh? and the CLC thing? < 1258227956 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless some of the MacRoman extra characters happen to map onto the INTERCAL charset, in which case they should change < 1258227968 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, which ones would those be? < 1258227975 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Princeton syntax characters are accepted if they happen to be in Latin-1 or UTF-8 < 1258227986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, do you happen to have a list of them handy? < 1258227997 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: see lexer.l or the appendix to the Revamped Manual < 1258228002 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're both lists of what characters are involved < 1258228006 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but neither is particularly easy to read < 1258228018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, easier way: are there any of them in the table at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_Roman < 1258228049 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: we like to check if things are on wayback before removing them entirely < 1258228066 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :WayBack or Reocities (although when I checked it didn't have some stuff) < 1258228085 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just a friendly warning that some links will be broken now :-/ < 1258228133 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes: ¢ £ ¥ € < 1258228160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, mhm < 1258228161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¥ will be a fun one, because Latin-1 ¥ maps to ? and UTF-8 ¥ maps to $ < 1258228170 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, and/or ¢ < 1258228182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, huh? How does one write one of them .bin files? < 1258228194 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's basically a list of characters < 1258228199 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I can't remember exactly how it works < 1258228210 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, where is it documented? < 1258228226 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably in its source, if anywhere < 1258228249 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah yes < 1258228254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about that empty array thing. How would one fix that? < 1258228254 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :long comment at the top of src/clc-cset.c < 1258228259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: by putting an element in it < 1258228289 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I mean, properly in the ick compiler < 1258228313 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: by getting the ick compiler to put an element in it < 1258228325 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, would this be in the RTL layer or such? < 1258228343 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either in the code-generation in perpet.c, or in the wrapper < 1258228373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :../src/feh2.c: fprintf(fp, "\")))\n\t{\n\t ick_createdata icd[]={\n"); < 1258228380 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that seems like where it is output? < 1258228389 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1258228395 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, just after that, I suspect < 1258228397 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :over the next few lines < 1258228406 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you basically want to add an empty element to the end of the array < 1258228408 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so always add a null entry to the end? or only if there is no other ones? < 1258228417 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second would be slightly neater < 1258228490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fprintf(fp, "\")))\n\t{\n\t ick_createdata icd[]={\n"); < 1258228490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : prunknowncreatedata(np, fp); < 1258228490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fprintf(fp, "\t };\n"); < 1258228491 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258228507 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a function that calls itself < 1258228513 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ins.i seems to only do decimal input? hmmm.... < 1258228515 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, would always putting it there break anything? < 1258228531 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so, but I can't remember < 1258228542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what the heck is that array for at all < 1258228563 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, the code comment says you wrote it (so you can't blame it on it being there before :P) < 1258228592 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it holds the information about the variables used in a just-in-case compiled command < 1258228598 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so adding an extra one seems unlikely to break anythign < 1258228621 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just checked that sizeof(icd) is never used < 1258228642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it can't possibly iterate over all entries in it then < 1258228646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh, what is the point of it < 1258228661 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: to look up individual elements < 1258228678 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, the second element gets overloaded onto .1602 < 1258228680 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for instance < 1258228691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how would you find the end of the array so you don't go past the end by mistake then? < 1258228704 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's stored in a separate variable < 1258228728 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :either that, or if accessed from C code (as opposed to INTERCAL code) I think it just segfaults, which is intended behaviour < 1258228734 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because that's what going off the end of an array does in C < 1258228809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what sort of crazy indention scheme are you using in the generated code... < 1258228818 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION can't figure it out < 1258228828 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: mostly it's just ordinary indentation < 1258228843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so 1 tab per level? < 1258228862 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, I think it's a mix of spaces and tabs < 1258228867 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that looks correct with tab=8, as it always should be < 1258228914 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab=4! < 1258228956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, yes. < 1258228966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so how many spaces for each level? < 1258228977 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but tabs are dumb anyways < 1258228996 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not sure offhand, IIRC it's 4 spaces for one level, one tab for two levels < 1258229041 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab-space mixing is such a truly horrible idea < 1258229062 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you use tabs properly, everything will still look right to someone with a different tab setting < 1258229090 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so what should the dummy entry be? < 1258229109 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab-space mixing means that you get stuff that looks like < 1258229111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like {0, 0, 0, 0, 0} ? < 1258229113 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: any tab setting but 8 is wrong and broken < 1258229127 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why tabs should never be used alone for indentation, they're too wide < 1258229128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, most of the world doesn't agree with that < 1258229131 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : sa < 1258229133 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sdf < 1258229135 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : lsakdjf < 1258229146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro, oh emulating mixed mode I see < 1258229147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1258229154 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah it's horrible I agree < 1258229154 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: why is any setting other than 8 broken? < 1258229182 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: because every terminal in existence has tab=8 < 1258229206 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the vast majority of editors, too, unless they're customised to something different (why that setting exists I don't know...) < 1258229208 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's not a good reason < 1258229220 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as I said, if tabs are used correctly, then you shouldn't care what the setting is < 1258229220 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :{0, 0, 0, {NULL, NULL}, 0} < 1258229226 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is that correct? < 1258229230 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: {16, 0, 0, {NULL, NULL}, 0} < 1258229237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, 16? < 1258229243 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :0 isn't currently a legal value for the first element of an ick_createdata < 1258229244 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course, emacs users have their retarded mixed mode, so things look hideous when viewed by people with narrower preferences < 1258229266 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: the tab width setting is going to matter whenever you use spaces < 1258229274 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I have not the foggiest idea how it works even after reading the struct definition < 1258229278 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION starts a campaign to make people use US to sperate groups of statemetns, RS to seperate each declaration, and GS to separate higher-level things like classes < 1258229284 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: tabs indent the line, spaces line up beyond that < 1258229288 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it contains all information about an expression needed to get and set its value < 1258229294 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: tabs are too wide to indent a line < 1258229298 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is there purpose just as much as tab's purpose is indentation < 1258229302 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're designed for table cells! < 1258229302 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: turn down your tab width then < 1258229307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, are you *sure* it won't break something? < 1258229312 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: pretty sure < 1258229316 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(elastic tabstops are another matter altogether, and they are pretty darn awesome_ < 1258229319 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: no, because then tabs wouldn't be wide enough for their intended purpsoe < 1258229321 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*purpose < 1258229323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1258229328 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and elastic tabstops are awesome, but not a sort of tab < 1258229328 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: how do I change my terminal tab woiidth < 1258229328 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :? < 1258229332 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, but what variable is 0 then? < 1258229333 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they're used for indentation < 1258229336 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tabs aren't < 1258229337 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: then indent with spaces and spaces only < 1258229340 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait hm < 1258229342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1258229347 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: a placeholder meaning that there isn't a legal variable there < 1258229356 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: that's what I mostly do nowadays, to handle people with broken editors < 1258229362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : coppro: tabs are too wide to indent a line <-- not at all < 1258229365 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: but why would anyone use table cells? if you mean making a 2d table of things < 1258229367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use tab to indent, spaces to adjust < 1258229371 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just like coppro explained < 1258229372 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: depends on what you're using < 1258229374 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1258229377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and it works just fine < 1258229377 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(any editor that allows you to set tab to anything but 8 is suspicious, any editor that /defaults/ to anything but 8 is simply broken) < 1258229385 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tabs are not 8 by definiton < 1258229389 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes they are < 1258229391 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: a variety, over ssh often < 1258229392 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : (any editor that allows you to set tab to anything but 8 is suspicious, any editor that /defaults/ to anything but 8 is simply broken) <-- why. < 1258229393 0 :Sgeo!n=Sgeo@ool-18bf618a.dyn.optonline.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258229401 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because tabs go to a multiple of 8 characters < 1258229405 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why < 1258229413 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf("\n\tThis line starts 8 characters from the margin.\n"); < 1258229424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, because you just defined emacs and vim as suspicious. < 1258229434 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, what? < 1258229438 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, people wouldn't insist on using that option if it didn't exist < 1258229440 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258229449 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I would drop that editor then < 1258229457 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and use one that had it < 1258229460 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: setterm < 1258229475 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: you'll break all the applications that assume that tab=8 if you do that < 1258229483 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes because those apps are broken < 1258229485 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. --help output often uses 8-space tabs < 1258229495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, --help uses spaces in my experience < 1258229512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe some pathological cases uses tabs < 1258229514 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: by table cells do you mean like excel but in ascii? < 1258229523 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: pretty much < 1258229531 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tab was invented on typewriters, where you set the tab stops by hand < 1258229534 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why in hell would you want that < 1258229540 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :by putting little bits of metal in the appropriate places < 1258229547 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to make it faster to type tables on a typewriter < 1258229557 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and to reduce the chance of mistakes because you didn't need to keep pressing the spacebar < 1258229558 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why not use a program for it, and set tab to something that's useful < 1258229578 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then when they came to computers, they quickly standardised on 8-space tabs anywhere but word processors < 1258229590 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: will that confuse things that use termcap and terminfo? < 1258229596 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, typewriters are legacy. And if you are suggesting we set them manually, the tabs=8 spaces is just pure wrong < 1258229597 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(before tables as tables were common, tabs for tables were common, and tab stops were generally 8 spaces apart by default but you could set them wider0 < 1258229601 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*) < 1258229612 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and realized a few weeks later they should've made it smaller everywhere else too, but some idiots decided 8 should stay? < 1258229614 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: not sure < 1258229617 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ever since, tab has moved to a multiple of 8 < 1258229622 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :typewriters are legacy but we still use its keys!! < 1258229622 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, instead every user should set some virtual metal bits at the top of the terminal emulator to define their tabs < 1258229623 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly < 1258229636 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except that certain /editors/ seem to let you change it; note that nothing but editors has it set to anything but 8 by default < 1258229658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so if you use tabs alone for indentation, you end up in the stupid situation where you can't read the program in anything but an editor < 1258229667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, setterm? < 1258229673 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where else would you want to read a program? < 1258229678 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION sees lines in code that start with 10 tabs or more ... < 1258229685 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, because of wanting to restrict lines to 80 columns so they fit on the screen, having variable-sized tabs means that you have no idea where to split your lines < 1258229686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as coppro suggested above < 1258229687 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :kinda extreme < 1258229706 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : also, because of wanting to restrict lines to 80 columns so they fit on the screen, having variable-sized tabs means that you have no idea where to split your lines <-- you don't. 100 columns is just fine. More than that isn't I agree < 1258229710 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: presumably that was added to cope with the broken editors < 1258229720 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, now you are just being silly < 1258229724 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I can fit about 83 characters horizontally on my screen, on a half-screen-width window < 1258229739 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so substantially more than 80 just annoys me as I can't see two bits of code side by side < 1258229750 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, 80x24 is still the standard UNIX terminal size (80x25 and/or 80x50 on DOS) < 1258229752 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway i'm just saying tables aren't actually a good reason to *keep* tabsize at a default of 8, because no one makes, and no one should make, tables using tabs < 1258229757 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you won't be able to read the code in a standard terminal < 1258229763 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :DOS can handle up to 132x32 (VESA) < 1258229769 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IIRC < 1258229776 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: agreed; the reason to keep tabsize at a default of 8 is because that's what tabs have been for ever, and what a tab actually means < 1258229781 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, mine opens at 150x120 iirc < 1258229781 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo: yes, but that isn't standard < 1258229784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1258229790 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, no 120x150 I think < 1258229791 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: because it depends on your video card < 1258229796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since it is taller than than it is wide < 1258229818 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that i can agree with. not that i do, but i don't not agree either. < 1258229819 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, forget that, chars are not square < 1258229821 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :80x43 is for EGA, 80x50 is VGA, so 80x25 must be for older (Hercules? MDA? CGA?) < 1258229823 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :150x120 it is in fact < 1258229852 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : oklofok: agreed; the reason to keep tabsize at a default of 8 is because that's what tabs have been for ever, and what a tab actually means <-- what a tab actually means says who? < 1258229859 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I feel we have [citation needed] here < 1258229862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a few other ones < 1258229868 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :says more or less every program in existence, apart from a few editors < 1258229872 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait actually i definitely do disagree, why keep them at 8, if they are completely useless with size 8 < 1258229874 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, try that printf statement I pasted above < 1258229876 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: they aren't < 1258229876 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TabsAreEvil < 1258229878 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::-)) < 1258229882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, exactly < 1258229889 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: what are they useful for, then? < 1258229890 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they let you abbreviate spaces for indentation, although that's become less useful nowadays because we're no longer massively pressed for space < 1258229895 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makefiles! < 1258229897 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you said tables, i said no, you said indeed not. < 1258229907 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, I most recently used tabs for table-making a couple of weeks ago < 1258229908 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as part of my jobs < 1258229910 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*job < 1258229911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so why not convert all of ick to just use spaces. < 1258229915 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that relied on tab=8 < 1258229921 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's used the \t forever < 1258229925 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since before I took it over < 1258229936 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :further evidence that tab should equal 8... < 1258229945 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: if you made a small table, you could've pressed tab twice. < 1258229963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ick is not recommended practise at all < 1258229967 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: the point was, I wasn't sure how wide each of the columns would be < 1258229973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, or we would be using setjmp and longjmp a lot more < 1258229974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and what not < 1258229981 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but you happened to know they were less than 8? < 1258229991 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: yes < 1258229996 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they were all either 6 or 7 characters long < 1258229996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, seriously if you suggest that ick code is a good example you *must* be joking < 1258230001 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ugh < 1258230007 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm suggesting it's a typical example of its age < 1258230010 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GNU indent, anyone? < 1258230020 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: that's not very convincing. < 1258230031 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and still, you could've used a program < 1258230035 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's actually meant for that < 1258230041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and for tables: it isn't even one tab between each column always < 1258230044 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you wouldn't have had to rely on at most "6-7" < 1258230050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sometimes you need two on one line and one on another line < 1258230060 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and it seems MPW defaults to tab = 4 < 1258230066 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I can't find anywhere to change it < 1258230068 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indent assumes that tabs are placed at regular intervals of both input and output character streams. These intervals are by default 8 columns wide, but (as of version 1.2) may be changed by the ‘-ts’ option. Tabs are treated as the equivalent number of spaces. < 1258230088 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, actually in the worksheet tab = 1 < 1258230097 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/UntabifyUponSave < 1258230100 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :presumably it doesn't support tabs < 1258230110 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so just renders them as spaces < 1258230114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and in Makefiles it is tab = 4 < 1258230122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so yes it clearly does < 1258230127 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes they are one char < 1258230133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can see that with the cursor key < 1258230166 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so there is the same sort of "proof" that tab should be 4 that you had for it being 8. < 1258230180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, seriously, a program shouldn't expect tab to be any specific size < 1258230183 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you could prove that newline should be \r the same way < 1258230187 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, in this case I think it's just luck ... he's right, 8 is way more "standard" or common < 1258230191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you read my paste from man indent? < 1258230193 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes indeed it should! < 1258230204 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it assumed tabs = 8 without even a customization option until 1.2 < 1258230207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also that's GNU software < 1258230208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and still, nowadays, uses tab = 8 < 1258230212 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1258230215 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it did the same thing on SunOS < 1258230218 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it's like saying GNU cat is some role model for all cat's < 1258230221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cats* < 1258230225 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I don't have access to that SunOS system any more, so that's from memory...) < 1258230229 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's weird, actually, doesn't GNU coding style prefer tab width of 2? < 1258230238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and? Sun made Java. What did you expect? < 1258230268 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: http://docs.sun.com/source/820-4180/man1/indent.1.html < 1258230269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, I have no clue. I keep well away from gnu coding style < 1258230274 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :assumes tab=8 with no way to customize < 1258230286 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :-in The number of spaces for one indentation level. The default is one tab stop, -i8. < 1258230290 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :resistance is futile! ;-) < 1258230291 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes and they invented java < 1258230293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you expect. < 1258230312 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: err, I expect them to have followed industry practice at the time? < 1258230325 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Java is full of good practice to an extent more than most other languages, it's what makes it so insufferable < 1258230326 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway you might prefer tabs to be 8. But 98% of the world that cares doesn't agree. < 1258230338 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(most of course doesn't even know what a tab is) < 1258230345 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: anyone who doesn't use a programmer's editor has tab set to 8 < 1258230350 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they probably don't realise it, but they do < 1258230354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, MS word? < 1258230357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does it use < 1258230363 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it doesn't even set it to an integer < 1258230364 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"HT Horizontal Tabulation" -- http://wps.com/projects/codes/X3.4-1963/index.html < 1258230368 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's about all it says < 1258230377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there you go then. That is probably the most common one < 1258230379 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(page 6) < 1258230389 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, because Word isn't a text editor < 1258230395 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Excel, incidentally, sets it to one cell < 1258230403 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which makes sense, because it's tab for tabulation < 1258230408 0 :asiekierka!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258230422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes. point is. tab=8 isn't a very common opinion any more < 1258230423 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-118-139.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1258230432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as for tabs being evil page on emacs wiki < 1258230436 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just set it in the mode line < 1258230437 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to be 4 < 1258230449 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, because that would be setting it to the wrong value for no good reaosn < 1258230468 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, correction: "that which ais considers wrong" < 1258230482 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: what possible reason do you have for assuming tab != 8? < 1258230503 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :given that this is a traditional flamewar, you can't go looking for a page that advocates one side of the flamewar, because there's bound to be one < 1258230512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well. because apart from ick and nethack I can't remember any code depending on tab == 8. Either it is tab = 4 or spaces always < 1258230522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: tab = 4? where do you get that from? < 1258230528 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 and 3 tend to be more common, 4 is a Pythonism < 1258230552 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, is it? 3 I have seen once. < 1258230554 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and all versions of indent we've found depend on tab=8 < 1258230555 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 a few more times < 1258230558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but 4 a lot more < 1258230597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, astyle seems to default to 4 spaces for indention < 1258230612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I haven't used indent for years, because it did such a bad job at C99 code < 1258230619 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw 3 once too, thought that guy was a little weird for that ;-) < 1258230631 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so astyle is what I use, which still fails at some C99 things, but much less < 1258230647 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thinks AnMaster is very trendy < 1258230649 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it defaults to 4 spaces, yes < 1258230655 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rugxulo, trendy? < 1258230663 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you ask it to indent using tabs, it assumes tab=4 because that gives the same indent size, but that isn't spaces < 1258230667 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Befunge98, 64-bit, C99 :-P < 1258230681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes I always asked it to indent with tabs < 1258230698 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A lot of our speech recognizer code is indent-two-spaces with assumed-8 tabs in the indentation somewhat randomly. < 1258230698 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, < 1258230699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :astyle --indent-preprocessor --indent-namespaces --indent-labels --one-line=keep-statements --indent=tab=4 --max-instatement-indent=40 --brackets=linux --min-conditional-indent=1 --unpad=paren --indent-switches --pad=oper < 1258230701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is what I use < 1258230704 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, reading the blurb at the start of the man page, astyle was designed specifically to format code so it looked correct for people who didn't set tab=4 < 1258230709 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*tab = 8 < 1258230726 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tabwidth=5 < 1258230728 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1258230731 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nonono < 1258230742 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tabwidth=13 < 1258230754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well yes. I make sure my code always look correct with any tab width. How wide each indention level is should be up to the user < 1258230767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if he/she prefers 8 per level, fine, set tab=8 < 1258230770 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, set tab to something else < 1258230773 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bah < 1258230775 0 :Rugxulo!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1258230777 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still it doesn't end up like: < 1258230782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : blah < 1258230784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : bsdasjd < 1258230788 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : blah blah < 1258230789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and such < 1258230796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with any tab width < 1258230798 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not as if ther are any places where one could view code that don't let people change the tab width < 1258230821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, indeed. even the terminal lets you change easily < 1258230824 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :setterm < 1258230840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess some old old terminal that didn't allow it might exist < 1258230848 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but good luck hooking that up to anything modern < 1258230893 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION gets out his soldering iron; and the documentation for several popular HTML renderers. < 1258230896 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: DOS edit? Notepad? less without having to type out the -x option every time you view a file? < 1258230916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :more, fwiw, which doesn't have -x? < 1258230923 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Set tabstops at all prime number offsets; that should be good. < 1258230926 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : LESS Options which are passed to less automatically. < 1258230930 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :TBH I don't know whether I was being serious or using deadpan sarcasm there < 1258230945 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printing via a standard printer when you don't know the ESC codes to change its tabstops? < 1258230947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, export LESS='-x4' < 1258230950 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :issue solved < 1258230954 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wait, what? < 1258230960 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you need cups to use a printer anyway < 1258230963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so how would that work < 1258230964 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that doesn't solve the issue, in fact it introduces an issue, that being that the tabstops are no longer 8 < 1258230973 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: umm, until very recently, you could just cat a file to a printer < 1258230975 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it printed < 1258230980 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to do that all the time under DOS < 1258230981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you got this wrong. Tabstop NOT being 8 is *NOT* an issue < 1258230997 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suppose tabs can be converted into spaces quite easily, for those things that can't adjust the tab width < 1258230997 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you end up with something like a semi-circular argument here < 1258231014 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: umm, until very recently, you could just cat a file to a printer <-- where? /dev/usb/something? < 1258231014 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what a printer driver does, mostly, is let you print "graphics", or set the font < 1258231026 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the serial or parallel port < 1258231030 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you just sent the data there, and the printer printed it < 1258231041 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I'm pretty sure the Apple StyleWriter didn't allow it < 1258231046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is the oldest printer I used < 1258231053 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it used to be that all printers worked like that < 1258231054 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I never used a parallel port one < 1258231058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, before my time. < 1258231062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: wow, how young are you? < 1258231065 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :stylewrite was an inkjet < 1258231066 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clearly the only solution is to head off to the quintessential plane and go and measure the Platonic ideal HT character. That will resolve the issue once and for all. < 1258231071 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, 20 in december < 1258231083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so 19, but less than a month until 20 < 1258231090 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: how old are you? < 1258231094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and I grew up with mac < 1258231096 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, I just said < 1258231098 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read up < 1258231098 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so old == young? < 1258231102 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ok < 1258231113 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well, I'm confused, because I'm 22 < 1258231118 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the older one gets, the younger one gets < 1258231120 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is bored < 1258231124 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yet, when I was young, printers were all either parallel or serial < 1258231132 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, Apple Stylewriter was able to print pictures. Greyscale only yes < 1258231133 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1258231144 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: basically, to print pictures, you sent a really long escape code < 1258231152 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1258231154 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you didn't send an escape code to a printer, it just printed text < 1258231164 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printer drivers were mostly responsible for converting graphics into escape codes < 1258231167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, there was no printer device as such on the mac < 1258231167 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I recall the days when printers came with documentation of their escape codes < 1258231176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, remember that is a *MAC* we are talking about < 1258231184 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I think you're missing the poin < 1258231185 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*point < 1258231189 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and example BASIC programs to demonstrate < 1258231191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about what data was sent over the cable < 1258231205 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: I've never seen one with example BASIC, but I've seen at least two manuals documenting the escape codes < 1258231206 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and that was some pre-rendered image I guess? < 1258231207 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and actually used them < 1258231217 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: say you want to print out a Word document, or whatever < 1258231219 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, because even when you printed text files on macs they had formatting < 1258231237 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if it was postscript I guess it downloaded font and such first? < 1258231237 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Word works out what each pixel should be, then the driver converts that to escape codes and sends it to the printer < 1258231244 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so although you're printing text files, you're printing in graphics mode < 1258231257 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes I suspect that always happened on mac < 1258231258 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :postscript's much more modern than all this, and therefore mostly irrelevant in this conversation < 1258231269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's happened at least since Windows 3.1, too < 1258231276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, apple's laserwriters were all postscript from the beginning < 1258231281 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but, the point is that if you just catted a text file down the printer cable, it would print it in text mode < 1258231286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, used windows 3.something *once* < 1258231293 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm happy to have grown up on mac < 1258231297 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :things just worked there < 1258231307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there was no terminal < 1258231336 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, in fact I typed "print" instead of "echo" in the mpw shell by mistake yesterday. Spewed postscript files all over my desktop < 1258231354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now one can wonder why the hell MPW would have such a command of course < 1258231355 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Apple's StyleWriter is a pretty unconventional printer; according to the README.txt of the Unix driver of it, it has absolutely no built-in fonts. The driver only prints raster images. < 1258231372 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: ok, that is interesting < 1258231376 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What about Postscript printers? < 1258231378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and explains AnMaster's resistance < 1258231394 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: I'm not actually sure what happens if you send them a plain non-PS text file < 1258231408 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it could be fun to cat a PDF to them, IIRC PDF is a subscript of PostScript < 1258231422 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, suset* < 1258231424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :subset* < 1258231433 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IME, PDF's have gribble in them, suggesting they aren't PS < 1258231436 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*PDFs < 1258231439 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well corrected < 1258231440 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and yes but it won't work out of box, due to some PDF specific headers or such < 1258231452 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: apparently the subset used in PDF is really non-idiomatic in PS < 1258231464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, citation? < 1258231476 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I'm not sure offhand < 1258231484 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I can't remember where I know that from < 1258231488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but PDF uses a lot of blobs, etc < 1258231493 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1258231495 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whereas postscript is a lot more like a programming language < 1258231569 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do think it's a subset only in the logical sense, not in the sense that the down-to-bits file formats would really be all that compatible. < 1258231584 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, indeed < 1258231639 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why is UserFriendly on such a dark topic? < 1258231672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sgeo, why would we know? < 1258231712 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: You could be Illiad in disguise. < 1258231743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why on earth does Mac OS 9 font suitcases contain DLOG resources according to resedit < 1258231747 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION lookas at them < 1258231747 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Certainly it seems a bit [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CerebusSyndrome Cerberus Syndromeish]. < 1258231751 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :didn't CAD have a random storyline about a miscarrage that everyone took the piss out of them for? < 1258231754 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"enter the network address for the server"? < 1258231756 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or was that QC? < 1258231758 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the fucking crap < 1258231761 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: CAD, yes. < 1258231763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :has that go to do with a font? < 1258232339 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and speaking of printers still: a friend had a networked PostScript laser printer that included a FTP server. You could log in and upload plaintext or postscript files; after the upload, they would come out of the printer. I don't really know what sort of heuristics it used for sniffing out postscript, but it did not treat everything as plaintext. < 1258232347 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think the same applied to the telnet server it had. < 1258232445 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"did not treat everything as PostScript", I mean. < 1258232458 0 :fizzircle!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Quit" < 1258232472 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hoh, completely forgot about that Ircle. < 1258232637 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, heh < 1258232673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why would a printer have a FTP server like that < 1258232677 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems completely pointless < 1258232834 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, we made use of it; for some reason, "proper" printing from Netscape (this was quite a while ago) on one of their computers was utterly broken, but since Netscape at that time had a "print by giving a postscript file to the following program" option, we got network printing with a script that used ncftp to upload the Netscape-provided file to the printer. < 1258232891 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Secunia advisory SA13170 from 2004-11-12: "Justin Rush has reported a weakness in HP PSC 2510 Photosmart All-in-One printer, which can be exploited by malicious people to cause a DoS (Denial of Service). < 1258232891 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The printer reportedly has an undocumented feature that prints files written to a write-only directory, which is anonymously accessible via a FTP service." -- see, it's not so uncommon. < 1258232904 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except that it was properly documented in that printer. < 1258232929 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(And configurable, so you didn't have to allow printing to everyone.) < 1258232987 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's a link I got from elsewhere in the irc, and so it's probably been all around the world already, but still: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1732348/regex-match-open-tags-except-xhtml-self-contained-tags/1732454#1732454 < 1258233008 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least it has nice use of Unicode combining characters. < 1258233512 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I get lots of boxes there < 1258233559 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's a shame; I had no boxes, but there's too many characters to start looking for from where they come. < 1258233690 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The renderization is not exactly pretty here either: http://zem.fi/~fis/comb.png < 1258233911 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's about what I get < 1258233953 0 :immibis!n=chatzill@203-97-111-43.cable.telstraclear.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1258234117 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION goes away. < 1258234698 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION thought perl regexes Can Do It < 1258234796 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can put arbitrary Perl in Perl regexes, and Perl can parse XML, so it sounds likely that they could. < 1258234876 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :depends on what the perl does inside the regex, it could be it can't touch the string being parsed, so you'd just be parsing something using perl, while you're parsing a regex < 1258234905 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean if it can't be an Inherent Natural Part of the regex < 1258234910 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the perl code < 1258234967 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I strongly suspect PCRE could do it though < 1258234971 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what with the recursionb < 1258234974 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recursion* < 1258235118 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :With embedded Perl, it's a bit debatable. I'm not sure it has the string-being-parsed (and especially the-location-where-we're-at) available somehow; if it does, you could use the (??{...}) thing -- "evaluate ..., interpret it as a regex" -- to return something like .{x} where x is the calculated length of the next regex part. < 1258235125 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/regex part/xml element/ < 1258235223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, maybe someone should post that there < 1258235233 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course it would be ugly as fuck < 1258235300 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not sure if a plain old extended-with-recursion thing is theoretically powerful enough; I guess it could be. Especially if it has Perl's (?(condition)yes-pattern|no-pattern) extension < 1258235331 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Perl's regex engine has a settable-at-compile-time-default-is-50 limit of the recursion depth for regexps, though. < 1258235361 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha. Almost 300 votes in under 24 hours. < 1258236105 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed < 1258236111 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wish I had written an answer like that :( < 1258236132 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wow, one of my answers hit 50 votes :) < 1258236900 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :My highest is two at 29. < 1258237272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so did you do something about the autoconf check for isatty? < 1258237277 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I didn't < 1258237279 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was eating lunch < 1258237283 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, dinner < 1258237292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and what would the correct solution be? < 1258237362 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: persuade GNU to fix flex < 1258237371 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you can't manage that, you'll have to rely on hacks < 1258237406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it doesn't seem likely that I will manage does it? < 1258237413 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yse < 1258237415 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*well, no < 1258237423 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you'll need to find some hacky way to do it < 1258237426 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so likely they won't fix it? < 1258237427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1258237432 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like a #define on isatty(x) to define it to 0 < 1258237444 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's triggered by an autoconf check < 1258237456 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can't write the proper autoconf bit for this < 1258237465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and on mac autoconf doesn't work anyway < 1258237481 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I would need to update config.h after someone adds a correct autoconf check < 1258237497 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: add isatty to the line "AC_CHECK_FUNCS(gettimeofday gethrtime strdup strtol strtoul snprintf vsnprintf)" in configure.ac, then rerun make < 1258237509 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C-INTERCAL's dependency system is set up so it changes everything to allow for that change < 1258237522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from actually conditioning on HAS_ISATTY or whatever the resulting macro is called < 1258237540 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and then? where would that be defined? In the *.l file directly? < 1258237553 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :let me try that, so I can give you more detailed instructions, or a diff < 1258237576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway, according to docs fileno() is also *nix only < 1258237587 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't matter if it's inside the isatty < 1258237605 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, true < 1258237726 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@cpc2-acto6-0-0-cust48.brnt.cable.ntl.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1258237820 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, this build system doesn't seem to like autoconf version bump < 1258237838 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how about we stop using autoconf < 1258237874 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :coppro: because if used correctly you can actually make it work < 1258237878 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just nobody ever uses it correctly < 1258237890 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I know you can make it work if you use it correctly < 1258237913 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, just run autoreconf, and it updates all the version numbers, nice < 1258237941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh the stdio.h includes a line about _POSIX_THREAD_SAFE_FUNCTIONS < 1258237945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit unexpected < 1258237955 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it seems they picked some parts of POSIX that they liked < 1258237978 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/* Define to 1 if you have the `isatty' function. */ < 1258237979 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#define HAVE_ISATTY 1 < 1258237983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what is your new version? < 1258237995 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of autotools < 1258238008 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: 2.64 of autoconf < 1258238012 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1.11 of aclocal < 1258238015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2.63 and 1.10.2 are the ones I have < 1258238020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anything newer in the patch will be a pain < 1258238026 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well those wouldn't be versioned < 1258238036 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the non-generated files would be < 1258238050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, right? < 1258238058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do you still version configure itself and so on? < 1258238059 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the build system works fine even if you have an old version of autoconf < 1258238066 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :configure itself knows what version it was created with < 1258238076 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes but you get warnings then sometimes < 1258238078 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the build system just prints a warning if you change configure.ac and have the wrong version, and doesn't update configure < 1258238093 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the warning's useful, it lets you know that your configure.ac changes weren't applied < 1258238104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, exactly. But since configure itself isn't versioned this will be no issue < 1258238116 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't know what you mean by that < 1258238122 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :configure itself doesn't depend on autoconf < 1258238129 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the makefile does, but only if you change configure.ac < 1258238141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, that the darcs repo would not contain generated files like configure, Makefile.in and so on < 1258238142 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even without it it doesn't crash, just uses the existing configure < 1258238144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :only the source files < 1258238144 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ah < 1258238148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like configure.ac and Makefile.am < 1258238155 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought the darcs repo did contain configure < 1258238160 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as well as the prebuilt stuff < 1258238162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, if it does it shouldn't < 1258238165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but meh < 1258238168 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so people can run from a copy of the repo < 1258238173 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's even a make repoupdate command < 1258238178 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1258238183 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to copy the currently built versions back to the prebuilt directory < 1258238190 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, did you find somewhere else to host it then? < 1258238198 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, but it's darcs < 1258238198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, surely your university provides some web space or such < 1258238201 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so the repo still exists, if only locally < 1258238210 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and my university does, but I couldn't sensibly put it there, it's unrelated to my research < 1258238227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, fizzie seems to manage that very well though < 1258238248 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway maybe fizzie could host this for you on his own server. it seems stable and such < 1258238256 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ever considered asking? < 1258238320 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I haven'y < 1258238321 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*haven't < 1258238326 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :apart from general requests to the channel < 1258238361 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is it public information what your research is about btw? < 1258238408 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, because I don't know myself yet < 1258238413 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's the only reason < 1258238422 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's vaguely in the area of hardware compilation and game semantics < 1258238440 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm having trouble seeing how to combine those < 1258238442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you could put nomic stuff on there then < 1258238465 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think you understand what game semantics is < 1258238475 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically a formalisation of programming, with some really tortured metaphors involved < 1258238478 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i probably don't either < 1258238482 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no clue what it is, so I was joking < 1258238496 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it turns out to be a really suitable one for generating hardware with < 1258238536 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, i've never heard about that < 1258238755 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wow, the Wikipedia article about it is really awful < 1258238763 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although it does explain to some extent where the terminology came from < 1258238773 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, link? < 1258238788 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's a Wikipedia article about game semantic < 1258238791 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*semantics < 1258238794 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can probably guess the link < 1258238799 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?go=Go&search=game_semantics < 1258238806 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I actually have an IRC macro for Wikipedia links... < 1258238815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I couldn't have guessed the full search thing for it < 1258238877 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how is game semantics related to hardware though < 1258238895 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you can basically embed nearly all of it into wires < 1258238909 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most of the basic constructions turn almost exactly into wires, with minimal circuitry < 1258238929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : AnMaster: you can basically embed nearly all of it into wires <-- why? < 1258238931 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only really difficult component is the one that can be written as lambda x: [x, x] < 1258238937 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, making two copies of something < 1258238939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why would I want to embed it in wires < 1258238946 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: to compile a program into hardware < 1258238953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, you get the game-semantic model for a program < 1258238956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah but why *games* for that < 1258238958 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :uh < 1258238959 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait < 1258238963 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I missed that bit < 1258238966 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the whole game thing is a tortued metaphor < 1258238970 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which should be ignored < 1258238983 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the terminology's full of words like "game" and "arena" and "strategy" which basically don't mean anything < 1258238996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so what exactly does it not have to do with games < 1258239004 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: everything? < 1258239008 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1258239008 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258239010 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1258239015 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1258239020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that must have been a mistake < 1258239023 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too abrupt < 1258239027 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :must've < 1258239034 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, huh < 1258239067 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh? i just repeated you < 1258239068 0 :ais523!n=ais523@92-236-187-64.cable.ubr08.king.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1258239072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wb < 1258239083 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wrong button? < 1258239092 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I was leaving in exasperation < 1258239111 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sort of like /ignoring people, just easier for other people to know what was going on < 1258239131 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it means he sneezed < 1258239139 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exasperation < 1258239160 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also why does this deck keep giving me 9 and 8 of spades next to each other < 1258239194 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean i explicitly put them in different parts of the deck, twice, and both times they magically find each other < 1258239205 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, ask the game semanticist in here. < 1258239209 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ais that is ;) < 1258239214 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1258239252 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the name is an unfortunate one < 1258239259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's about as accurate as "biscuit semantics" would be < 1258239263 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we get that < 1258239336 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my brain is weird, if i lay down 6 cards, and take a glance, then turn them face down, i can't remember a few of them, usually; but if i put them face down, and go over them once, trying to guess what they are, i will remember them on the second round < 1258239374 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, new file extension for c++ I found today: < 1258239377 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :.cp < 1258239386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems not uncommon on classic mac os < 1258239413 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though i've looked at them a smaller amount of time, it's just i don't automatically memorize them if they're face up, but i do if i put them face down, and *then* look at each of them separately < 1258239447 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :" i can't remember a few of them, usually"? < 1258239449 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and putting them face down i can pretty easily go up to 15 or such < 1258239450 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you meant "can"? < 1258239453 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, i forget a few. < 1258239471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, forgot a few what? < 1258239474 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :usually i remember 5/6 < 1258239476 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cards. < 1258239482 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, for game semantics into hardware, think of the IP being an actual impulse on a wire < 1258239490 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you can multithread by having more than one of them < 1258239495 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and bits of code know to run when the IP turns up < 1258239509 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh. what about thread local dat? < 1258239511 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :data* < 1258239522 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: doesn't work like that < 1258239529 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :variables work as in OCaml < 1258239533 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so how does the IPs avoid running the same code < 1258239537 0 :adam_d!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1258239539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I don't know ocaml < 1258239550 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: you make sure they don't run the same code via static analysis, before hand < 1258239553 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my master's project was about that < 1258239560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1258239597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, that seems pretty common however < 1258239627 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's not interesting how many i remember, as this is not how many i remember if i actively try < 1258239641 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is just how many i remember if i lay cards down without thinking, turn them face down, and try to remember what i saw < 1258239649 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1258239654 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the amount is different depending on how i look at them < 1258239672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, what if you try to remember from the start? < 1258239690 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if i look at each of them, so that all are already turned, i remember less than if i look at each in turn, always having the other face down < 1258239706 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess that sounds obvious, i focus better if there's just one thing to focus on < 1258239714 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it feels like i'm doing the exact same thing < 1258239718 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looking at each card. < 1258239732 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: obviously i can just memorize the whole deck < 1258239742 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, hm < 1258239745 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not obvious < 1258239752 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone can remember a deck < 1258239778 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :make a song about it, "THIIIIIS HERE IS MISTER JACK, HE'S A HEARTY HEARTY DUDE" < 1258239780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, anyone? < 1258239787 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone. < 1258239800 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, without reservation? < 1258239825 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway if you add time limits, i can memorize 15 pretty much without work, atm < 1258239847 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without work = without system, without major effort making up a system on the fly < 1258239853 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just looking at cards and turning them < 1258239878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, even an idiot savant who is savant at something completely different? < 1258239878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1258239880 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also for 9 cards, i can keep track of simple permutations... but still a noob at this < 1258239891 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: well any human < 1258239912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok, they are human < 1258239916 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1258239918 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually define human as the ability to memorize a deck of cards < 1258239920 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1258239924 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's true... < 1258239927 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'll have to think about this < 1258239998 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: oklofok, they are human <<< oh lol i read "then you are human" < 1258240004 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thought it was a reference to my not being human < 1258240023 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i suppose idiot savants are technicaly human < 1258240027 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*technically < 1258240032 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my kb is borken < 1258240301 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i actually now also realize your "then you are human" comment would've been before my definition of human < 1258240313 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :major brainfart < 1258240326 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i bet none of you humans can do that < 1258240389 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :indeed my farts usually appear in the other end < 1258240416 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that sounds disgusting! < 1258240440 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no wonder you're never invited to the intergalactic gala of greatness < 1258240453 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, did i just make a fart joke? my humor must be deteriorating even further! < 1258240465 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::) < 1258240487 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :were you planning on that continuation btw? < 1258240492 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope < 1258240498 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :good < 1258240511 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is this "planning" thing you are speaking of < 1258241116 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :memory is so weird < 1258242188 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hm. < 1258242204 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Chrome's "Close tabs opened by this tab" only goes 1 level deep < 1258242263 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well otherwise it would have to recurse. and that would require recursion. < 1258242322 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm not sure i get that < 1258242328 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something which would necessitate a recurrence step. < 1258242347 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this another fart joke? < 1258242387 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, and that's bad how? < 1258242415 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the smell would be horrible < 1258242471 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: unlikely. although who knows what one might find at the base step. < 1258242503 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, Sgeoosh < 1258242525 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :YOU TELL ME WHAT THE JOKE WAS ABOUT THIS INSTANT < 1258242532 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and don't say okloosh < 1258242559 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that would require me explaining what the point of the joke is! < 1258242568 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1258242573 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :grrrrrrr < 1258242608 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless the joke actually had nothing to do with chrome < 1258242609 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beware of the oklobear < 1258242615 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just recursion? < 1258242657 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems a distinct possibility. except it certainly started out relevant for a second. < 1258242799 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :today, we learn that sometimes people missing the point of a joke can be funnier than the joke itself < 1258242807 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1258242824 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm going to grr you dead. < 1258242828 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not Pthing, oerjan < 1258242849 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION grrs oklofok to half-death < 1258242885 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a grrrsome death, i assume < 1258242933 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seriously, what was the joke < 1258242963 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I assume it was about describing recusion using variants of the word recursion < 1258242970 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :recursion. which should be obvious because of the recursion. < 1258243042 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well come to think of it there needs to be no chrome reference because recursion already is a tab closing reference < 1258243074 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now you're just trying to be incomprehensible back. < 1258243089 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no not really! < 1258243128 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i tell you there _was_ a chrome reference. < 1258243159 0 :Sgeo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Sgeoosh"? < 1258243160 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to close descendant tabs more than 1 level deep, what do you need? < 1258243181 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :..recursion? < 1258243194 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*ding ding ding*