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00:59:42 <Darth_Cliche> Have you made any esolangs before, or do you just use them?
01:01:32 <Oranjer> I mean, I've yet to use 'em, and I haven't made any
01:01:48 <Oranjer> but! you have google wave, right?
01:02:25 <Darth_Cliche> (As for me, I've made http://esolangs.org/wiki/HQ9_2D HQ9+2D)
01:03:16 <Oranjer> it says there's no text on it (hur hur hur)
01:04:17 <Oranjer> hey! can you send me the link using google wave?
01:04:43 <Oranjer> oranjer@googlewave.com!!!!
01:07:12 <Oranjer> is the program usable? for making things?
01:13:14 <Darth_Cliche> Well, I just earlier today signed up for the wiki
01:14:23 <Oranjer> well, now you can like, do stuff, I guess
01:14:29 <Oranjer> and freedom of action is goood! yay
01:16:17 <Darth_Cliche> ...you seem a lot less conservative than I had originally, rather offensively, assumed.
01:17:18 <Oranjer> hell, I'm the one who got into arguments with conservatives at my school
01:17:34 <Darth_Cliche> The assumption was based entirely on your location.
01:17:36 <Oranjer> I was like, the spokesperson for anti-conservativism
01:18:55 <Oranjer> I dunno, I do see atheist bumperstickers and whatnot from time to time here
01:19:38 <Darth_Cliche> religion != politics, for one thing. Although atheists are generally liberal or libertarian.
01:21:00 <Darth_Cliche> But most importantly, "from time to time", as opposed to "often".
01:21:01 <madbr> ah, but aren't libertarians some form of conservatism? :o
01:21:13 <Oranjer> well, although I once saw a Darwin fish in Texas (awesome), but I meant it as...
01:21:45 <Oranjer> that in a conservative place, such blatant non-christian stuff would be terrorized and whatnot
01:22:19 <Oranjer> well, madbr, it's more like two seperate dimensions
01:22:30 <Oranjer> economic freedom, and social freedom
01:23:07 <Darth_Cliche> (It's really three dimensions, though individual and social are closely tied.)
01:23:11 <Darth_Cliche> Liberalism has low economic but high individual/social
01:23:28 <Darth_Cliche> Conservatism has high economic but low individual/social
01:24:21 <Oranjer> of course, me ol' gover' teacher gave us another interpro
01:24:26 <Darth_Cliche> When you split individual and social you get 9 different ideas
01:24:39 <Oranjer> three facets: order, freedom, and equality
01:24:59 <Oranjer> you can only choose two, at the expense of the third one
01:25:10 <Oranjer> Conservatives generally pick order and freedom, at the expense of equality
01:25:28 <Oranjer> liberals generally pick freedom and equality, at the expense of order
01:25:57 <Darth_Cliche> And if you pick order and equality at the expense of freedom?
01:26:05 <Oranjer> and authoritarians generally pick order and equality over freedom
01:26:41 <Oranjer> Communism did, before it went total-postal
01:27:01 <Darth_Cliche> Also, a more inclusive way to define it based on those facets:
01:27:24 <Oranjer> (also, what were those 9 ideas you mentioned?)
01:27:41 <Darth_Cliche> (I don't have names for them. They're just combinations of high/low.)
01:28:25 <Darth_Cliche> You can use that point to increase any of them by 1.
01:28:35 <Darth_Cliche> You can decrease any of them by 1 to gain another point.
01:29:29 <Oranjer> although, there would have to be limits
01:29:36 <Darth_Cliche> Thus centrism just doesn't spend the point in the first place
01:29:41 <Oranjer> defined by nature, and what not
01:29:51 <Oranjer> wouldn't centrism spend it on order?
01:30:26 <Oranjer> hey! let's use this stuff in a nomic!
01:30:49 <Darth_Cliche> Maybe. We'd need a good initial ruleset incorporating them.
01:31:51 <Oranjer> of course, as I was telling yuri, a system requires a goal to be worthwhile, and that most countries (and nomics, and other human organos) don't have any goals above "survive"
01:32:32 <Oranjer> so I'm saying that in the future, if I'm involved in a nomic (or anything else), I shall always make an early step to be the defining of a goal
01:32:44 <Oranjer> so, what is the goal of our suggested nomic?
01:33:22 <Darth_Cliche> Or we could have some sort of United Nations-like entity
01:33:58 <Darth_Cliche> you can gain great power by becoming leader of the UN
01:34:13 <Darth_Cliche> as it has drifted quite far from the topic of esolangs.
01:34:34 <Oranjer> (remember, unfamiliar computer here)
01:35:05 <Oranjer> yuri wants to talk about it also
01:35:11 <Oranjer> sure we can't do it in google wave?
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01:37:48 <madbr> what would be a good cpu design for some amateur project?
01:39:54 <Gregor> http://esolangs.org/wiki/MISC
01:45:36 <madbr> that doesn't look particularly programmable
01:45:55 <madbr> it could be a more standard risc although those are boring
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01:55:47 <Gregor> If I wanted to program MISC, I would make a MIPS->MISC compiler.
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03:45:12 * Sgeo got yellwed at for saying wtf
03:45:20 <Sgeo> When I meant to type wtg
03:45:24 <Sgeo> But this was repeated
03:46:55 * Sgeo is addicted to AWBingo
04:05:15 <Sgeo> I'm in a bingo place
04:08:02 <Darth_Cliche> Does it please you to believe you are in a bingo place?
04:09:18 <Darth_Cliche> I accidentally mixed code for my IRC bot and my ELIZA clone
04:18:02 <Darth_Cliche> ME: The world is explode. ELIZA: What does that suggest to you?
04:19:15 <Darth_Cliche> ME: I WILL KILL YOU ELIZA! ELIZA: Perhaps in your fantasies we will kill each other.
04:26:50 <Sgeo> So two people in AW use Base64 to swear in front of people who don't approve of swearing where they're doing it
04:26:57 <Sgeo> I'm threatening to reveal what language they're using
04:31:21 <Sgeo> And one of them talked about f***ing one of the other people there, so
04:36:12 <Sgeo> It's a G rated area, and the owners of the place already ejected someone for saying wtf
04:41:08 * Darth_Cliche creates chatbot representing typical 12-year-old
04:45:56 <lament> http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs112.snc3/15956_210441155020_601130020_4464643_2268885_n.jpg
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04:51:05 <oklofok> okay finally felt like learning the techniques in "how to develop a super power memory"
04:51:32 <oklofok> after one day's training, i had a friend tell me 42 cards from the deck and i told him the missing ones
04:54:02 <oklofok> also i memorized the order of a deck in ~ 10 minutes, random access, although card -> index was a bit unreliable... then again i was getting pretty tired
04:54:23 <oklofok> i guess that's all... people should seriously read that book
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05:10:39 * oklofok considers memorizing the internet
05:15:55 <oklofok> although i guess that could still be considered spam
05:16:15 <oklofok> usually i say i'm a lizard
05:16:48 <oklofok> (doesn't mean the system doesn't work for humans, i have a human brain)
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05:17:30 <Darth_Cliche> ...I'd accuse you of being a furry, except that doesn't quite work with lizards. Maybe a scaly.
05:22:25 <oklofok> i wish there was a book about memorizing data structures in general, loraine was more of a magician than a computer scientist
05:22:49 <oklofok> also cs may have been slightly different in '57
05:23:14 <oklofok> well telling by your face...
05:24:07 <Warrigal> Have I used the nick DogFace here?
05:25:16 <oklofok> Warrigal: either that or you've linked pictures of yourself and your damn ugly
05:25:26 <oklofok> i don't remember which tbh
05:26:25 <Warrigal> I've either linked pictures of myself countless times or used the nick DogFace here countless times?
05:26:25 <Darth_Cliche> Come to think of it, the name 'Warrigal' sounds like a dog breed.
05:26:51 <Warrigal> It's a species of canine indigenous to Australia.
05:27:00 <oklofok> i had a theory about Warrigal's nicks
05:27:17 <oklofok> but it's somewhere deep in the logs
05:27:32 <oklofok> something about a sex change operation
05:28:01 <Warrigal> "ihope", tentatively seeking reassurance and hoping that the operation will work out.
05:28:39 <Warrigal> And then "Warrigal", i.e. "Warri gal", obviously post-op.
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05:32:46 <oklofok> what does it say in your mug
05:33:04 <oklofok> also you look *very* different than i expected
05:33:07 <Warrigal> oklofok: "For integral x > 0, compute the number of pairs of distinct points A and B on y = x^2 where the slope of line AB is 2008."
05:33:25 <Warrigal> Where "line AB" is AB with an overline.
05:33:35 <oklofok> (unless you are the jap or something dude)
05:33:56 <Warrigal> And "^2" is a superscript 2. But anyway.
05:34:05 <Warrigal> I wonder what you expected me to look like.
05:34:13 <oklofok> "(unless you are the jap or something dude)"
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05:34:26 <Darth_Cliche> ...my brother thinks "dingo" is a slang term for penis.
05:34:43 <oklofok> everything is a slang word for penis.
05:34:51 <oklofok> except penis, it's just a word for penis.
05:35:00 <Darth_Cliche> "Everything" is indeed a slang term for penis.
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05:35:17 <Darth_Cliche> Also, "dick" is not a slang term, it's just a regular term.
05:35:24 <oklofok> i'm pretty sure this conversation has been had here
05:36:11 <Gregor> Hm, everything itches. That can't be good. /me goes to a urologist.
05:36:13 <oklofok> yes. i say everything is a slang term for penis, someone says that same joke. or maybe it's my first deja vu i don't recognize as one.
05:36:18 <oklofok> we've had a lot of conversations about penises
05:36:56 <oklofok> i was told that today at uni, well not directly
05:37:16 <oklofok> it was implied via antisymmetric eyebrows
05:37:43 <oklofok> because i have to remove these plastic flap thingies from all the bottles i empty
05:37:55 <Warrigal> Eyebrows that were at the same height at no distance from the median plane.
05:38:33 <oklofok> Warrigal: umm wouldn't those be symmetric
05:38:58 <Warrigal> Eyebrows that were at a different height at every distance from the median plane? No, certainly not.
05:39:59 <Warrigal> Hey, I'm wearing my medal in that picture.
05:40:39 <MizardX> Warrigal: The number of integer pairs on y = x^2, x > 0 that form a slope of 2008 is 2007. 4014 points in total.
05:40:57 <oklofok> you mentioned your friend was at some sorta championships, i figured you weren't because you didn't mention that
05:41:09 <Darth_Cliche> He won Most Times Accidentally Deregistered From Agora.
05:41:48 <Warrigal> oklofok: I wonder which friend that was.
05:42:02 <oklofok> Warrigal: this was about the dinosaurs
05:42:22 <oklofok> (defined as some sorta connected regions on ZxZ)
05:42:41 <Warrigal> Yeah, 2008-ominoes or something.
05:42:48 <oklofok> the actual problem was trivial iirc
05:43:04 <Warrigal> Because it was last year or something.
05:43:14 <Darth_Cliche> Hell, we should probably be gearing up for 2010.
05:43:16 <Warrigal> I dearly hope the problem was not trivial, as I couldn't solve it.
05:43:52 <oklofok> well i don't remember it, usually that happens if the problem is complex to state, or trivial to solve
05:44:44 <Warrigal> It was practically equivalent to this: "A dinosaur is a polyomino of at least 2008 squares. A primitive dinosaur is a dinosaur that cannot be divided into multiple dinosaurs. Find the number of primitive dinosaurs."
05:44:58 <MizardX> slope of line between a and b is (b^2-a^2)/(b-a), which simplifies to (b + a). Slope was 2008, so a + b = 2008. 2007 solutions for a,b > 0.
05:45:19 <Warrigal> MizardX: oh, that's not right.
05:45:29 <Warrigal> Aren't there only 1003 solutions?
05:45:47 <oklofok> oh i misunderstood the question
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05:46:33 <oklofok> what do you mean can't be divided into multiple dinosaurs?
05:47:28 <Warrigal> oklofok: it cannot be partitioned into dinosaurs.
05:48:07 <oklofok> yeah i guess that is obvious
05:49:03 <MizardX> a = b doesn't have any distance, and thus can't form a unique line.
05:49:22 <oklofok> MizardX: but it's a solution
05:49:32 <Warrigal> oklofok: not of (b^2-a^2)/(b-a) = 2008.
05:49:52 <Warrigal> So it's a solution of some equation. :-P
05:50:16 <immibis> wrong window and accidentally pressed enter :P
05:50:39 <Warrigal> it's a solution of that equation.
05:50:59 <immibis> a=b is also a solution of 3x=0
05:51:04 <oklofok> to an equation that was mentioned!
05:51:30 <immibis> also to prove that there are no solutions for x=-x: (1) x = -x (2) 1x = -1x (3) 1 = -1
05:52:12 <Darth_Cliche> A dinosaur is a polyomino of at least an infinite number of squares. A primitive dinosaur is a dinosaur that cannot be divided into multiple dinosaurs. Find the number of primitive dinosaurs.
05:52:30 <oklofok> a line of 2008 in a row is one
05:52:32 <Warrigal> Darth_Cliche: that's false, if there are any dinosaurs.
05:52:48 <Warrigal> Take the dinosaur {(0,x) | x > 0}.
05:53:11 <Warrigal> One square and all the squares to the right of it.
05:53:28 <Warrigal> oklofok: now enumerate the rest!
05:53:36 <oklofok> that can't be partitioned into dinosaurs?
05:53:46 <oklofok> "if there are any dinosaurs."
05:54:06 <oklofok> it can't be divided into two dinosaurs that look like it
05:54:37 <oklofok> or any amount in fact, any partition into dinosaurs will have at most one infinite dinosaur
05:55:24 <Warrigal> oklofok: take the dinosaur {(0,x) | x > 0} u {(1,x) | x > 0}.
05:55:46 <oklofok> Warrigal: not a partition of {(0,x) | x > 0}
05:56:07 <oklofok> "Darth_Cliche: It can be divided into multiple dinosaurs" <<< response to this
05:56:29 <Warrigal> The obvious name for {(0,x) | x > 0} is the omega dinosaur.
05:56:46 <Warrigal> I want to see the omega plus one dinosaur.
05:56:49 <Darth_Cliche> A dinosaur is a polyomino which resembles a dinosaur. Find the number of dinosaurs.
05:57:16 <Darth_Cliche> seeing as how "resembles a dinosaur" is completely subjective
05:57:25 <Warrigal> There are a lot of infinite numbers-of-things.
05:57:49 <Darth_Cliche> I do not, and will not ever, understand the difference between aleph and infinity.
05:58:11 <oklofok> Darth_Cliche: infinity is defined as follows: if a set can be put into bijection with a proper subset of its, it's infinite
05:58:30 <oklofok> the actual infinite numbers are then sizes of different infinite sets, again defined by what can be put into bijection with what
05:58:35 <Warrigal> There are a bunch of definitions of infinity, and they're pretty much entirely incompatible.
05:58:49 <oklofok> well right that's cardinality
05:59:08 <oklofok> the set of natural numbers
06:00:21 <Warrigal> Aleph is just the answer to the question "How many natural numbers are there?"
06:00:54 <Warrigal> Aleph_1 is the answer to the question "What's the size of the smallest set that's bigger than aleph?", aleph_2 is the answer to "What's the size of the smallest set that's bigger than aleph_1?", and so on.
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06:02:47 <Warrigal> aleph is not a valid thing to put in the subscript.
06:03:12 <Warrigal> The smallest cardinal number greater than aleph_n for all natural numbers n is aleph_omega.
06:04:22 <Warrigal> omega and aleph are different types of numbers; you can't really compare them like that.
06:04:27 <oklofok> Warrigal: if it anywhere had a "line" (of any shape) of 4016 squares, you could divide the thing into two polyominoes of 2008
06:04:33 <Warrigal> omega does have a size, though, and the size of omega is aleph.
06:04:33 <oklofok> so that at least puts an upper bound on the size
06:05:24 <Warrigal> I don't think I was able to come up with an upper bound on the size.
06:06:27 <immibis> Warrigal: what's the size of the smallest set bigger than aleph_omega?
06:06:49 <oklofok> err... it totally does put an upper bound in the size, start with any cell, because we have a polyamino, we can connect it to any other cell, therefore there's a line to any other cell
06:07:17 <oklofok> so you can't have 8032 cells because blah
06:07:25 <immibis> Warrigal: what's the size of the smallest set bigger than aleph_(omega+n) for any natural number or aleph number or aleph_omega number n?
06:07:26 <Warrigal> oklofok: wait, what's your upper bound, then?
06:07:54 <Warrigal> immibis: aleph_(omega*2), if I read that correctly.
06:08:10 <oklofok> i'm not very good at thinking while ircing
06:08:17 <immibis> Warrigal: what's the size of the smallest set bigger than aleph_(omega^n) for any natural number or aleph number or aleph_omega number n?
06:08:43 <Warrigal> immibis: wait, I interpreted your question as if you had said "for any natural number n".
06:09:27 <Warrigal> Then again, n can't be an aleph number, so I'll continue to interpret your questions as if you had said that.
06:09:41 <oklofok> well right, if you can't bound the thing in a 2008x2008 box, then there are two cells at least 2008 away from each other
06:09:53 <oklofok> those cells are connected by some line
06:10:01 <oklofok> which will be of length at least 2008
06:10:26 <oklofok> then you can just "floodfill" them into a partition
06:10:31 <immibis> having names for infinite numbers is stupid, especially considering that basically you have "the biggest natural number" and now you've got names fo rnumbers bigger than it
06:10:49 <Warrigal> If it touches the edges of a 4016x2008 box, you can cut it into two dinosaurs.
06:11:08 <Warrigal> Heck, if its height is at least 4016.
06:11:21 <Warrigal> immibis: well, these are called ordinal numbers.
06:11:31 <Warrigal> I'm sure they're useful in some way.
06:11:41 <oklofok> immibis: kinda like graphs are stupid because now you basically have a "branching" natural number
06:11:50 <oklofok> natural numbers can't branch!
06:12:20 <Warrigal> immibis: represent a natural number as a series of connected dots.
06:12:45 <immibis> if they're connected, are they still dots?
06:12:48 <oklofok> immibis: i'm just saying infinity is not a natural number, therefore it doesn't have to follow the axioms, kinda like graphs.
06:13:44 <Warrigal> immibis: you know, if you had pushed enough, you would have reached the limits of my notation.
06:14:07 <immibis> exactly, that's why it's stupid
06:14:24 <immibis> you have the biggest number, and you also have that many numbers bigger than it
06:14:58 <Warrigal> We should come up with a notation that can express every ordinal number*.
06:15:11 <Warrigal> *Except those outside our (countable) model of ZFC.
06:18:22 <Warrigal> Let [\x, E], where E is an expression in x, mean "the smallest ordinal number greater than E for all natural numbers x".
06:19:22 <oklofok> i'm assuming you don't mean E : N -> N
06:19:32 <oklofok> partly because that would make no sense
06:20:16 <Warrigal> I will not define "expression", because that word is one of the Words Whose Meanings You're Supposed To Know Already of mathematics.
06:21:05 <oklofok> makes sense, i'll be quiet because it'd be embarrassing if you found out i don't know what it means
06:21:54 <Warrigal> Other WWMYSTKA: "variable", "free variable", "function", "relation", "axiom", . . .
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06:47:58 <oklofok> Warrigal: are you sure the problem wasn't to find the greatest possible primitive dinosaur?
06:48:33 <oklofok> because i vaguely recall you talking about a plus-shaped dinosaur and saying you couldn't prove it's the biggest possible
06:50:14 <oklofok> "...the most basic being to enumerate polyominoes of a given size. No formula has been found except for special classes of polyominoes."
06:50:34 <oklofok> i guess it could be a simpler problem, in theory
06:51:09 <oklofok> just thought i'd check because it looks a bit like the problem of non self-intersecting paths
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06:58:26 <madbr> given an infinite board size, would go be turing complete?
07:09:16 <oklofok> http://www.answers.com/topic/exptime
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07:19:26 <oklofok> http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Wiki/index.php/2007_USAMO_Problems/Problem_4
07:20:01 <oklofok> oh cool solutions, now i don't have to waste a day on it
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05:25:58 <oklofok> "and since it visits a corner infinitely many times, it must visit the exterior of the rectangle." <<< what if it always goes back to the interior after visiting the corner?
05:27:01 <oklofok> i mean you might have it, but then you are considering something a triviality that i don't, at least compared to the other facts you mention there.
05:27:27 <oklofok> but yeah, it's something like that, of course you need to show a reason why you go off the cycle, for any cycle there might be
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09:08:03 <oklofok> (obviously there needs to be a cycle, because there needs to be a repetition of global state)
09:08:36 <oklofok> but anyway, you did not mention the "trick"
09:11:55 <Warrigal> Find the leftmost cell of the topmost row. (Heh, "topmost".) This cell must be entered from the bottom and exited from the right, or vice versa, and it must alternate between these. And...
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11:55:54 <oklofok> Warrigal: where exactly does the ant go to a new cell?
11:56:15 <oklofok> so it has to alternate between those, then what?
11:57:22 <oklofok> i don't see where that differs from proving that an ant that always turns right and doesn't change cell state always sees an infinite amount of cells...
11:59:03 <oklofok> also there was another, even simpler one i had to do, for each L in RE, find a language N in R and a homomorphism h such that L = h(N)
12:01:50 <oklofok> also i'm so tired i'm pretty sure no one except the lecturer understood my mumblings
12:04:50 <oklofok> there's this guy on the course who has sofar gotten every yes/no proof the wrong way around, i'm beginning to think he's doing it on purpose
12:05:29 <fizzie> It might be a statement of some sort.
12:05:54 <fizzie> Some sort of protest, maybe?
12:06:41 <fizzie> I've heard some grumblings like that.
12:06:59 <oklofok> it's a very concrete question whether RE and R are closed under homomorphisms and inverse homomorphisms
12:07:38 <fizzie> Then again, ours is a *technical* university, not some fancy-pants science-making factory.
12:07:54 <fizzie> Is a technical university technically not an university?
12:08:30 <oklofok> i'm not exactly sure how technical universities differ from normal ones
12:08:56 <oklofok> our cs department does a lot of "non basic" research, like simply finding practical algos for medical purposes and shit
12:09:10 <oklofok> what's "perustutkimus" in english
12:09:36 <fizzie> I've seen "basic research" used. Or fundamental.
12:09:45 <oklofok> right. well they do a lot of non-that
12:10:37 <fizzie> Applied and eval'd research! Though I guess the latter doesn't really mean anything. :/
12:11:07 <oklofok> i guess it's eval'd after peer review
12:11:59 <fizzie> A beer-reviewed journal is a good place to publish in.
12:12:01 <oklofok> althoughi'm not sure that's a very intelligent play on words
12:12:24 <oklofok> that joke must be used a lot in student magazines
12:13:50 <fizzie> Results 1 - 10 of about 105 for "beer-reviewed journal". It is not so clever, no.
12:14:26 <fizzie> The google summary-snippets are sometimes very interesting. "For more on this subject see my beer-reviewed journal article entitled Earth, Earth, the Magical Fruit. Our current climate computer model accurately ..."
12:15:42 <oklofok> okay i've been trying to get up and get food for 20 minutes now
12:17:47 <fizzie> Misread "oklofok fries", possibly because that's not such an unlikely act for the topic of food-getting.
12:19:01 <oklofok> i mostly microwave things.
12:19:53 <oklofok> especially when i haven't slept
12:20:08 <oklofok> if i tried to use the more technical machines
12:20:16 <fizzie> Fry, you fools. Somehow today my brain is wired to generate phrases like that without explicitly trying to, and I can't seem to turn it off.
12:21:36 <oklofok> i think it was in the trailer of mcdonald's - the movie
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14:01:04 <ais523> ooh, apparently they're adding function pointers to Java
14:03:18 <AnMaster> really? what's wrong with passing a class around all the time?
14:03:51 <ais523> AnMaster: have you ever /written/ Java?
14:04:12 <ais523> basically, it avoids four lines of boilerplate every time you want to create any sort of callback
14:04:15 <AnMaster> ais523, no. But I have read it.
14:04:26 <AnMaster> ais523, and duh. I wasn't serious
14:04:39 <ais523> facsimile: yes, but O(1) is still annoying when you have to write it n times
14:05:03 <facsimile> That's only O(n), if you work on a team that's easily resolved
14:06:09 <ais523> facsimile: it's still worse than the alternative
14:06:28 <ais523> one of the things people should learn from computer science is that O(n^3) is faster than O(1) for small enough n and large enough 1
14:06:53 <AnMaster> ais523, can't you make a macro to do it
14:07:02 <AnMaster> you could in theory use a preprocessor for java
14:07:09 <ais523> AnMaster: that would be horrific style, and also you'd need to run a separate preprocessor
14:07:18 <AnMaster> ais523, yes I said that just above
14:07:24 <ais523> although, that kind-of makes me want to write .java.m4 files now
14:07:37 <AnMaster> ais523, I was thinking about abusing cpp
14:07:46 <ais523> meh, m4 is better if you want to abuse something, it's Turing-complete
14:08:06 <ais523> I could combine it with my indentation style designed to annoy everyone equally
14:08:13 <ais523> and create a language designed to annoy everyone equally
14:08:21 <ais523> (the m4 would annoy Java fans, the Java would annoy everyone else)
14:08:31 <AnMaster> yay for this web mail system. I have a limit of 50 MB, of which I'm currently using -506KB
14:08:54 <AnMaster> it's "Sun ONE Messenger Express", used for the university
14:08:54 <ais523> it would be incredibly funny if it were storing the number of bytes used in a signed 32-bit integer
14:09:05 <ais523> and not /quite/ outside the realm of plausible stupidity
14:09:17 <AnMaster> ais523, adding up the column for all mails in the inbox give me plus 506 KB
14:09:34 <ais523> I like my explanation better
14:09:37 <AnMaster> ais523, so just the sign is inverted somewhere
14:13:07 <AnMaster> ais523, in a formal English letter, what would you write above your name? "Regards"?
14:13:22 <ais523> AnMaster: there's a complicated set of rules that nobody can remember
14:13:30 <ais523> apart from people who write formal letters for a living
14:14:01 <ais523> IIRC it's either "Yours sincerely" or "Yours faithfully" depending on what form of address you used for the recipient up near the top
14:14:06 <AnMaster> ais523, well, lets say I'm writing to one of the teachers at university, one who happens to not be a native Swedish speaker and prefers to receive mail in English thus.
14:14:06 <ais523> but I forget the exact circumstances
14:14:23 <ais523> AnMaster: is there a need for the letter to be really formal?
14:14:52 <AnMaster> ais523, well, I guess you could go even more formal.
14:15:26 <AnMaster> ais523, as for address at the top, it is an email ;P
14:15:51 <AnMaster> (I guess that wasn't what you meant)
14:16:40 <ais523> AnMaster: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valediction#English
14:17:20 <ais523> AnMaster: it's the name for the bit at the bottom of a letter where you sign your name
14:17:37 <ais523> anyway, going off to a meeting for a while
14:24:10 <AnMaster> ais523, funny thing: Now when I sent an additonal mail the count went down further. It seems that I actually get -512 KB when I take (sum of sizes of mails in "Inbox") - (sum of sizes of mails in "Sent").
14:24:35 <AnMaster> I have no idea what would happen if I used any other folder
14:24:52 <AnMaster> maybe it would divide or multiply by them? XD
15:12:24 <ais523> oh well, basic rule for formal letters is "yours sincerely" when you know the other person's name, and "yours faithfully" when you don't
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20:58:50 <AnMaster> read it before I went away to eat
20:59:09 <AnMaster> oerjan, also I just saw the most horrible pun in a product name in Swedish
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21:00:03 <AnMaster> vet du vad "nässprej" är? (Är det samma på norska?)
21:00:24 <AnMaster> i alla fall så såg jag en sådan med namnet "Renässans"
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21:00:51 <oerjan> i think that's a double pun... ren- also has something to do with nose
21:01:08 <AnMaster> oerjan, in fact it was: "Renässans Plus+"
21:01:41 <AnMaster> oerjan, "rhin-"? not in Swedish at least. Maybe latin?
21:01:56 <oerjan> there's one such spray called rhinox
21:02:16 <AnMaster> oerjan, what do you call such a spray in English?
21:02:52 <oerjan> heh it's also a transformers character
21:03:30 <oerjan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasal_spray
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21:06:19 <AnMaster> fizzie, where did you get that from?
21:07:02 <fizzie> It was this Assembly 99 "wild demo" compo (basically a movie of anything at all) third-place-winner.
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21:08:45 <fizzie> It was about an imaginary nose hair trimmer tool. (In fact it was a small one of those "plasma lamps" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_globe -- you must've seen one. You sort of rubbed your nose against it, and presumably it removed some nose hair or something.)
21:08:55 <fizzie> (It also came with a full-sized car battery. Mobility!)
21:09:22 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: the description is based on my very fallible and vague memories; I haven't been able to find the video file anywhere.)
21:09:44 <fizzie> Wait, it's in youtube now.
21:09:54 <fizzie> Uploaded September 14, 2009. That's synchronicity for you!
21:10:14 <oerjan> Notable side effects: May set your nose hairs on fire. If so, try sneezing.
21:10:16 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AleEMZl5bQI -- it is unfortunately only in Finnish, I think. (I don't have speakers connected.)
21:10:28 <AnMaster> fizzie, err... what was the point of that video
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21:10:51 <fizzie> And in fact it doesn't seem to be just a nose hair trimmer; it helps in any nose-related problems.
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21:12:07 <fizzie> What's that word? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sketch_comedy
21:13:36 <fizzie> Here's a completely irrelevant bit of trivia: I think that female "announcer" person is the daughter of the former (and longtime) editor-in-chief of Finland's arguably largest computer-tech-related magazine.
21:15:12 <fizzie> (333000 readers, a circulation of 93364 copies.)
21:17:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, what was the "Assembly 99 "wild demo"" thingy about?
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21:19:20 <fizzie> Well, that's where that video was an entry in.
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21:19:39 <AnMaster> fizzie, and what was "assembly 99" about?
21:19:47 <AnMaster> not about assembly programming I guess?
21:19:54 <Deewiant> Assembly is a demoparty, 99 is the year 1999.
21:19:58 <fizzie> A demoscene party thing; I'm *sure* I've mentioned Assembly here.
21:20:53 <AnMaster> fizzie, I'm unable to see what this video had to do with "assembly programming" and "demo". I would expect some computer generated 3D thingy or such instead.
21:21:55 <fizzie> Well, like I said, it's a wild compo entry.
21:21:56 <fizzie> Those can be anything.
21:21:59 <fizzie> Usually some fraction is just generic parody video style stuff.
21:22:17 <fizzie> And others are very vaguely computer-related, and some more directly.
21:22:29 <fizzie> Though they've been messing around with the categories lately.
21:23:09 <fizzie> Youscope was a not too shabby one; it was a demo-style thing displayed on the screen of an oscilloscope connected to a computer sound card.
21:23:35 <fizzie> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1eNjUgaB-g and so on.
21:25:27 <fizzie> Currently (well, in 2009) the category split was so that "Real Wild demo" entries must be "anything that can run realtime graphics", and there was a separate "short film" category for not-programmed stuff.
21:26:59 <SimonRC> "Most soundcards (and other players) seem to have a lowpass filter at about half of the samplerate" <-- that sounds rather like Information Theory 101
21:30:04 <fizzie> The Nyquist-Shannon sampling theorem part is unarguably "Information Theory 101" content; but it is a non-obvious consequence (though admittedly not so unexpected) that people actually add separate low-pass filters in.
21:31:11 <SimonRC> What would the low-pass filter block? Surely the card can't produce any frequencies above half the sample rate?
21:31:20 <SimonRC> unless it blocks the sharp transitions
21:31:33 <fizzie> I'm not quite sure; for recording it obviously makes sense.
21:36:58 <fizzie> It *might* (and this is pure speculation) be there to filter out any D/A converter-caused high-frequency artifacts or noise, since (like you say) only the frequencies below half the sample rate can possibly contain any meaningful information.
21:37:34 <SimonRC> e.g. to turn the steppiness of the digitiser into smooth waves
21:37:51 <SimonRC> but we *want* the steppiness for the oscilloscope
21:39:30 <fizzie> I've completely forgotten all the low-level signal processing delta-sigma-based DAC constructions. "A typical DAC converts the abstract numbers into a concrete sequence of impulses that are then processed by a reconstruction filter using some form of interpolation to fill in data between the impulses." It might be that the reconstruction filter is tuned to drop high frequencies there.
21:58:09 <AnMaster> fizzie, how did they manage those shapes? I wasn't aware they could do that
21:59:19 <SimonRC> which means you just plot points with an appropriate signal
22:01:20 <AnMaster> SimonRC, do those things use CRTs or what?
22:03:26 <SimonRC> oscilloscopes use CRTs traditionally
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22:14:37 <fizzie> Yes, they pretty much linearly map the input voltages into X/Y deflection.
22:14:45 <fizzie> Though modern ones are pretty digital.
22:15:45 <AnMaster> fizzie, about x/y how would you use voltage for *both*?
22:16:05 <fizzie> Well, for both in the XY mode; like Youscope did.
22:16:17 <SimonRC> one from the left channel, one from the right
22:16:18 <fizzie> Left and right stereo channels in this case.
22:17:04 <fizzie> There's something so romantic about oscilloscopes.
22:17:09 <fizzie> All those knobs to twiddle, you know.
22:18:18 <fizzie> Best part of the electronics lab course, and the DSP hardware course, was that one got to mess around with an oscilloscope.
22:20:41 <fizzie> Oh, and they sell those PC-based "oscilloscopes", or data-acquisition devices, nowadays; now that's as boring as anything, just a block you connect wires to, an USB cable to, and then run some messy Windows GUI app.
22:21:20 <SimonRC> custom hardware is so much more fun!
22:21:40 <AnMaster> it would be ok if it worked with linux
22:22:05 <fizzie> AnMaster: Well, it's not like I have done a thorough study; some of them might have Linux capabilities too.
22:22:12 <fizzie> For some reason my work email address gets a lot of spam about data acquisition devices, though.
22:23:56 <fizzie> "Windows® 7, Vista, XP or Windows® 2000 operating system" for the first google-hit, USBee: http://www.usbee.com/dx.html#PC
22:24:41 <fizzie> Of course those can do a lot more tricks than your old 1970s CRT oscilloscope; for example, decode and visualize communications protocols.
22:26:07 <fizzie> "Linux drivers for PicoScope 2000, 3000 and 5000 Series USB Oscilloscopes
22:26:07 <fizzie> At Pico we were one of the first test and measurement companies to provide Linux drivers. We hope that these new drivers for the PicoScope 2000, 3000 and 5000 Series of USB Oscilloscopes demonstrates our continued commitment to the Linux platform.
22:26:07 <fizzie> These drivers have been extensively tested on Fedora 8, Ubuntu 8.04 and openSUSE 10.3."
22:26:18 <fizzie> Well, it's not *completely* Windows-only.
22:26:46 <fizzie> Of course the drivers are binary-only blobs and possibly do not include any sort of real application in there.
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22:30:17 <pikhq> Hmm. Chrome OS source available...
22:31:00 <pikhq> May have to play with it sometime later.
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23:18:46 <SimonRC> better than the time I tried to login in as root and run shutdown without turning the screen on
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23:26:07 <immibis> i hope that channel wasn't logged, SimonRC?
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23:42:42 <oerjan> nom-icers may not be unheard of either
23:53:25 <Rugxulo> apparently ais523 hasn't been here in about six hours
23:53:36 <Rugxulo> oh well, nothing hugely important to report anyways ;-)
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