< 1259087117 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Bug #487744 is not in Ubuntu: ..." < 1259087325 0 :ais523_!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259087991 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1259088183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, file another bug about that? < 1259088206 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like intentional behaviour < 1259088212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, try to boot from a livecd? < 1259088217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fsck from there < 1259088227 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1259088233 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it boots well enough if I just skip the fsck < 1259088244 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if something's wrong with fsck, it's possibly best not to run it < 1259088247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, maybe disk errors in unused blocks? < 1259088254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :full badblocks on whole disk? < 1259088263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that shouldn't crash fsck the way it does < 1259088276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, worth a try. From livecd of course < 1259088288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as for livecd, don't use an ubuntu one < 1259088292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use some other < 1259088357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, use a livecd that isn't debian based for this in fact < 1259088381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page < 1259088390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc that one is actually gentoo-based < 1259088404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1259088542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gentoo liveCD is a contradiction < 1259089748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259090829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no it isn't < 1259090835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, gentoo has one itself for install < 1259090837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :installing* < 1259092370 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO by definition that isn't gentoo < 1259092373 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it's used to install it < 1259093198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is in fact gentoo < 1259093203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is built from gentoo packages < 1259093230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for that http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page you can even take it back to a gentoo system if you install it on an usb stick or such < 1259093378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, know anything about UPS units that works well with linux? < 1259093394 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1259093399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1259093401 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-5-129.w90-52.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259093522 0 :JohnTeddy!i=unstable@tor/regular/sid JOIN :#esoteric < 1259094161 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From what I've heard, quite a lot of them work pretty well with Linux; assuming you count as "works well" the ability to get a basic level of status outputs and control out of it. And electricity, but it would be quite an oops of a UPS (see what I did there?!) if it had some OS dependencies for *that*. < 1259094170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really have hands-on experience with any, though. < 1259094232 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux boxes are a bit of a target market for UPS people, it isn't really surprising that they have better levels of support than some random gaming peripheral. < 1259094236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is wondering about price ranges too < 1259094268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all I can find everything from cheap consumer crap to ultra-reliable ones meant for mission critical servers. < 1259094281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm looking for a reasonable one for a desktop < 1259094295 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259094299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, random gaming peripheral? < 1259094322 0 :JohnTeddy!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1259094419 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stuff they ship with Windows-only games (fake guitars, fake skateboard, fake whatever) nowadays. To be honest, I couldn't really figure out right then and there anything that really definitely wouldn't work with Linux; I'm not surprised if there are drivers for that stuff too. < 1259094454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fake skateboard? wireless or *really* long cable? < 1259094458 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I were to get a desktop UPS, I'd pick some respectible manufacturer (I have a good-ish feeling about APC, though no real evidence for it) and select something from their low-end range. < 1259094471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wouldn't it have to be ethernet, iirc the max length on usb cable is rather short) < 1259094487 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue how it works. I don't think you're supposed to move around with it, just sort of... I don't know what, tilt and jump and whatnot. < 1259094495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1259094513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but wouldn't they generally just show up as a HID device of some sort? < 1259094515 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Hawk:_Ride here. < 1259094523 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The peripheral, shaped just like a real skateboard, is equipped with infrared sensors to detect motion and display it on-screen. Turning, leaning, hopping, and other actions will all reflect in the game realistically." < 1259094550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that make pirating the thing harder I guess < 1259094553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes* < 1259094573 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, they might. Still, there's no *official* support, unlike for UPSes. (Admittedly official Linux support often means horrible kludgy crap, even when compared to some not-so-brilliant open-source hacks.) < 1259094577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like one of those "dongles" (remember those?) except this time the thing is actually required < 1259094597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you mean like nvidia drivers? < 1259094606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also aren't the windows thingies about as bad? < 1259094610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drivers there I mean < 1259094621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember kludgy HP drivers for example < 1259094626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where scanning just didn't work well < 1259094636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you had done some weird stuff first < 1259094647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course it works flawlessly under linux) < 1259094686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> "The peripheral, shaped just like a real skateboard, is equipped with infrared sensors to detect motion and display it on-screen. Turning, leaning, hopping, and other actions will all reflect in the game realistically." <-- I'm pretty sure a real one has wheels. Unless someone invented a hover skateboard recently < 1259094722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hover skateboard sounds cool btw < 1259094737 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds very back-to-the-future-ish. If you've seen the movie. < 1259094751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes I have. years ago < 1259094760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that you mention it, it sounds familiar < 1259094762 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact I first read that Wikipedia bit without the word "shaped": "The peripheral, just like a real skateboard, is equipped with infrared sensors to detect motion and display it on-screen." < 1259094771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1259094773 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it had hoverboards, but I might be wrong. < 1259094817 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A Hoverboard (or hover board) is a fictional hovering board used for personal transportation in the films Back to the Future Part II and Back to the Future Part III." < 1259094838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, couldn't you build an actual hover skateboard though? I mean, based on classical hover principles rather than some sort of fictional anti-gravity < 1259094845 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Some companies hoping to leverage the commercial success of the movies have marketed hovercraft vehicles as hoverboards, but these products have not been shown to replicate the experience depicted in the movies." Haha. "What, really?!" < 1259094878 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could build something, but I doubt it'd be quite as sleek and well-behaved. < 1259094913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you could make it computer controlled. Like an dynamically unstable aircraft (you know what those are?) < 1259094916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hoversegway! < 1259094927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hey I was going to mention segway next < 1259094932 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MythBusters did one, in fact, out of a surfboard and leaf-blowers. (The WP article I was quoting from contains also this tidbit, though now that I've read it, I do remember that episode too.) < 1259094936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it might be a good example < 1259094941 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Java user signed off" < 1259094949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh? how did it work out? < 1259094969 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of the future, we were thinking of getting a Roomba, for the cat to drive around with. I've seen all those Youtube videos about it. < 1259094986 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259094989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is a "Roomba"? < 1259095022 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's one of those robotic vacuum things. It might even be the first commercially-successful-on-the-consumer-markets-really one, for all I know. < 1259095025 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it a sort of robotic vaccum cleaner? < 1259095028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1259095033 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't think cats rode them, though < 1259095069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, looking at wp article it would be unable to fit under my desk. Too short distance between floor and lowest drawers < 1259095077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise I think it would be cool < 1259095089 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Youtube “cat roomba” results 1 - 20 of about 313. (Admittedly not all are a cat riding a Roomba; some are of other sort of cat-Roomba-interactions.) < 1259095144 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the first hit, with over 4 million views, is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-jv8g1YVI < 1259095285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, strange the cat didn't get off when it turned around so much < 1259095303 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for the MythBusters hover-thing, I seem to remember they had some sort of competition race on the beach or something. I don't think it worked quite so well on uneven sand, but reasonably well on flat ground. It's just that having four (or was it two?) leaf-blowers running full blast right below you is probably not included in your hoverboarding daydreams. < 1259095342 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn that thing is noisy < 1259095350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, yeah < 1259095353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pitty < 1259095373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, but a normal vacuum cleaner is noisy too < 1259095373 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but would be a cool pet if it was silent. < 1259095376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about as bad < 1259095386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, or at least quiet < 1259095386 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but it gets the job done faster < 1259095393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't have to be completely silent < 1259095393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact < 1259095398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely silent would be bad < 1259095406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way you will trip over that loud thing < 1259095412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a silent one? Possibly < 1259095416 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1259095431 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The newer models should be a *bit* less noisy, but I don't really know anyone who'd have one, so I could go and listen. The noise part is something that's making us a bit vary, though. < 1259095431 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess there could be a version that makes a sound for blind ppl < 1259095432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, would you notice one moving about in a half dark room? < 1259095468 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has this small light < 1259095474 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: At least with the noise you'll have some sort of advance warning when it turns evil and comes to murder you. < 1259095491 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, it's an electronic gizmo dizmo, so it has a light < 1259095503 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(All robots do that sooner or later, it's like a law or something.) < 1259095521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it could stop the noisy part until it moved up just right behind you < 1259095543 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it could. Hmmmm, now I'm not sure we dare to get one. < 1259095553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why doesn't normal computers turn evil too? < 1259095579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I mean, they likely have way more computational resources than that. < 1259095593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only difference is that it isn't on wheels < 1259095600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or legs or whatever) < 1259095607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION imagines a thinkpad with wheels < 1259095610 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<lame> they do, it's called windows </lame> < 1259095629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, isn't that thing just a joke? < 1259095645 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of which, the company (iRobot) *does* make also some sort of development platform, that's basically a Roomba without the "noisy part", i.e. the cleaning machinery. There's just a microcontroller you can program to do whatever you want, and some sort of empty space to put whatever you want in. < 1259095656 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway computers couldn't really kill people, the law actually states that everything that thinks, and can kill, eventually will < 1259095658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, they pre-install this joke windows so as to not end up in a distro flamewar just becaused they selected kubuntu instead of ubuntu < 1259095659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1259095661 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://store.irobot.com/shop/index.jsp?categoryId=3311368 -- their website is a bit messy, though. < 1259095664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1259095673 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, it's just alme < 1259095673 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sic) < 1259095682 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1259095685 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what you meant < 1259095691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alme? < 1259095694 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alme. < 1259095701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get the joke < 1259095716 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The joke was too alme for you to ge.t < 1259095717 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's ok < 1259095726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ge.t? < 1259095728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1259095748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oklokok> anyway computers couldn't really kill people, the law actually states that everything that thinks, and can kill, eventually will <-- do robots think? < 1259095753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess it depends < 1259095772 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so does it like learn the apartment? < 1259095772 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like where rooms are < 1259095776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine some simple one that was designed out of Lego. I have programmed for RCX. No way it could think < 1259095778 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and systematically clean it < 1259095839 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: your mom doesn't think < 1259095849 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: The actual Roomba? No; in fact, as far as I know, it decidedly doesn't try to learn it at all. There's just some messy heuristics involved, and a lot of random-walking around. They claim that makes it more robust. < 1259095868 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmkay, it looked pretty idiotic in the cat vid < 1259095888 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, our cat is not the most clever thing ever either. They could suit each other just fine. < 1259095941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems very illogical way to do it < 1259095943 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, doesn't a two-dimensional random walk eventually cover the whole plane? I think it does. (I have no idea how it does for differently-shaped polygonal enclosed regions, though.) < 1259095952 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259095961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logical way is to build a map as you go along, and update it if you notice changes < 1259095977 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm sure it covers all polygons as well < 1259095981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like when you pass near where there was a chair leg before, see if there is still anything there with your sensors < 1259095994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, clean there too < 1259095996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1259096018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> Anyway, doesn't a two-dimensional random walk eventually cover the whole plane? I think it does. (I have no idea how it does for differently-shaped polygonal enclosed regions, though.) <-- I think one key word here is "eventually" < 1259096019 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well umm < 1259096019 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1259096024 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obvious that it covers any finite region < 1259096039 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's just that the thing can't really know where it is started from, and anyway that sort of stuff is nontrivial. I'm sure their engineers have better sort of things to do. < 1259096043 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for infinite regions, we know it covers the whole infinite plane < 1259096058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "eventually" monkeys + typewriters = shakespear. Even in a finite number < 1259096062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"eventually" < 1259096082 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, but for most apartments, this is a lot smaller "eventually" we're talking about here. < 1259096084 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not so sure about infinite polygons < 1259096085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> AnMaster: It's just that the thing can't really know where it is started from, and anyway that sort of stuff is nontrivial. I'm sure their engineers have better sort of things to do. <-- try to match it against previous map < 1259096095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see if you get a good enough fit < 1259096108 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if you have a few teleports you could simulate a 3d topology with it < 1259096112 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1259096121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or use a GPS maybe. Not sure if that is accurate enough (even assuming you can get a signal indoors, I usually can that at least) < 1259096123 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in 3d a random walk does not cover the plane < 1259096157 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GPS is very much not accurate enough for that, and anyway it would cost to add a GPS receiver. < 1259096165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1259096176 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PolyasRandomWalkConstants.html was in fact the result I was sort of remembering. < 1259096187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway you could have some sort of "reset maps, we moved to a different apartment" button < 1259096221 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1259096227 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you live at point P on the infinite plane, and kick off the Roomba, it'll eventually come back to you. (That might be a rather long "eventually" here.) < 1259096259 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't say anything about infinite polygons < 1259096266 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I am under the impression that some of the other robotic vacuum thingies do build maps too. < 1259096285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no it won't < 1259096290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it has finite battery < 1259096299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it *may or may not* come back < 1259096301 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although intuitively it seems restricting the map would just make it harder to get away from the origin... < 1259096313 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, you have to assume an ideal Roomba here. < 1259096318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah. < 1259096319 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, here's the justification I was looking for: < 1259096321 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike the Electrolux Trilobite vacuuming robots, Roombas do not map out the rooms they are cleaning. Instead, they rely on a few simple algorithms such as spiral cleaning, wall-following and random walk angle-changing after bumping into an object or wall. This design is based on MIT researcher and iRobot CTO Rodney Brooks' philosophy that robots should be like insects, equipped with simple control mechanisms tuned to their environments. The result is that < 1259096321 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although Roombas are effective at cleaning rooms, they take several times as long to do the job as a person would, usually covering some areas many times and others only once or occasionally not at all. < 1259096352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric, the only place where discussing a vacuum cleaner robot on an infinte plain will ever happen < 1259096397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, which seems quite pointless. I want things properly cleaned < 1259096403 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't actually seen proof of the random walk + plane thing, would probably make it easier to see if the probability stays at 1 if you restrict the path < 1259096449 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, you're a deterministic sort of a person. Statistically speaking they do clean things properly, the differences even out. < 1259096465 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on R^2, i imagine a random curve would return to any open ball around the origin < 1259096488 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably by adding an infinite amount of circles on the plane, each having a smaller hole than the last < 1259096490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is the time complexity of roomba cleaning in a finite room though? < 1259096495 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1259096534 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could make the probability of getting from x to y to < 1... i think... maybe < 1259096553 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I like this part: "After a certain amount of time -- the Roomba stops and sings a few triumphant notes. If a homebase is detected, a second- or third-generation Roomba will try to return to it. -- If at any time the unit senses that it has become stuck, no longer senses the floor beneath it, or it decides that it has worked its way into a narrow area from which it is unable to escape, it stops and sounds a mournful tone to help its owner find it." < 1259096559 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just somehow so cute. < 1259096569 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was like more probable to always get to an outer circle than an inner one < 1259096572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mournful tune! < 1259096586 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely wonders what would cause a failure to sense the floor < 1259096599 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somebody turning it upside down < 1259096617 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or running down the stairs and ending up upside-down; though it's supposed to avoid stairs normally. < 1259096638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm... a mapping robot would avoid those issues < 1259096659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not during initial mapping < 1259096680 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do think a mapping robot can also get stuck or confused just fine; the real world is a fuzzy thing. < 1259096682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it could be built to detect with ultrasound or radar if there was somewhere it wouldn't firt < 1259096685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fit* < 1259096688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then back up < 1259096695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, radar < 1259096718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well or ultrasonic < 1259096729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolux_Trilobite seems to have an ultrasonic sensor < 1259096757 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This object detection is fairly reliable, but sometimes fails if the robot approaches an object with a sharp corner." < 1259096764 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, it's not a clear-cut thing. < 1259096780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, true. but that is where mapping helps after the initial mapping run < 1259096797 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure your ideal robotic vacuuming device is very cost-efficient. There's a point of diminshing returns somewhere in the piling up of intelligence on it. < 1259096805 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But certainly mapping is a viable strategy too.) < 1259096843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mapping shouldn't be too expensive, memory is cheap and the programming for it only need to be done once < 1259096859 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to pay a lot for competent programmers. :p < 1259096867 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, a mapping robot is decidedly closer to a planning robot, and a planning robot is again closer to a scheming robot, and a scheming robot is just a couple of short steps from the robotic revolution. < 1259096893 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if it's not too expensive, the idea is that it's not too useful < 1259096910 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"When we reported about the new Electrolux Trilobite 2.0 Vacuum robot last Friday, we asked the question why this vacuum robot ($1,799 at Amazon.com) is about 10 times more expensive than the iRobot Roomba ($159.99 at Amazon.com)." (This is from 2004, though.) < 1259096958 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: a scheming robot would be closer to being properly functional < 1259096973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sure I didn't say the ultrasound sensor *wasn't* expensive < 1259096980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just said that mapping isn't a lot more expensive < 1259096980 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also; the serial interface of the Roomba is documented, you can easily provide as much intelligence as you like by sticking some additional hardware on top. < 1259096992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that is niec < 1259096994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice* < 1259097020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway it seems the trilobite gets the job done quicker < 1259097025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I misunderstood things < 1259097079 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The advantage there is mostly power saving, since the idea is to leave it on for the 8 hours you're at work or whatever < 1259097134 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure we want to spend a four-digit number of euros on it, also. (Some Finnish price-comparison site lists the ZA 2 /2.0 Trilobite at 1259 EUR.) < 1259097141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what about home office? < 1259097168 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the target market. < 1259097179 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Supposedly it's also somewhat more noisy. (But also sucks more, in the "good" sense.) < 1259097201 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is all just hearsay from reviews, though. I'd like to hear both myself somewhere. < 1259097283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, useful for people who are allergic to various things (like me) < 1259097316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(getting rid of the damn pollen every spring is a high priority for me at least) < 1259097836 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1259100754 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1259100860 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :initial response: "I see the reversed-text thing, but why did they badly photoshop lips onto John's girlfriend?" After looking at the original: "Oh, Jim Davis really did draw them that badly." http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=207 < 1259101269 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION continues memorising a 20-char random password for work < 1259101280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, joke? < 1259101289 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259101293 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Tattoo it on your forearm! < 1259101300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, why did you choose something that long < 1259101306 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to show off < 1259101551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, you aren't supposed to show off passwords < 1259101556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are supposed to be secret < 1259101561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the whole point < 1259101712 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@92.135.9.197 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259101794 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1259102276 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can boast about the length though < 1259102278 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1259103072 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-168-223.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1259104111 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259104136 0 :immibis_!n=immibis@125-236-168-223.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1259104277 0 :immibis_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259104292 0 :immibis_!n=immibis@125-236-168-223.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1259104427 0 :immibis_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1259104550 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1259105072 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259105291 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:03:36 <ehird> Or a small subset that dictate things. < 1259105307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1259105309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now < 1259105310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1259105312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :→ < 1259105359 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do recall reading the haskell committee had a daily designated syntax dictator, who had the final word on all syntax issues < 1259105382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure this helped immensely < 1259105595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see also: wadler's law < 1259106725 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here know any Forth? < 1259106775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 2 + . < 1259106784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's about it ;) < 1259106790 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know about /mod, right? < 1259106810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, is it something like haskell's divmod? < 1259106837 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*divMod < 1259106841 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259106842 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit yeah < 1259106857 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realised I have a better place to ask my question < 1259106858 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nvm < 1259106870 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go #forth and divide < 1259106951 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur[hw]

< 1259020804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mostly gay orgies, though. < 1259021129 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259021145 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi oerjan. < 1259021156 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ehird < 1259021209 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi oerjan. < 1259021242 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi pikhq. hi all < 1259021714 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1259021804 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :formatter['3']=fmtrot13; < 1259021805 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :printf("spoiler: %3\n", "snape killed dumbledore"); < 1259021809 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Discuss. < 1259021878 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Java user signed off" < 1259021884 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: It was his sled. < 1259021944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for(s=nil; s=nextspoiler("http://www.threadless.com/product/844/Spoilt"); s) { < 1259021944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : printf("%3\n", s); < 1259021944 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :} < 1259021957 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what do you do if the number needs to be followed by an ordinary printf character? < 1259021969 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like d or f < 1259021980 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :touché, I hadn't even thought of that < 1259021997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just didn't want to think of an appropriate alphanumeric :) < 1259022036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i don't think H is taken (as in hide) < 1259022056 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/'3'/'H'/; s/%3/%H/ < 1259022320 0 :augur!n=augur@216.164.33.76 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259022469 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The actual fmtrot13 function would probably look something like http://sprunge.us/DGfQ. < 1259022482 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Likely with annotations for printf typechecking. < 1259022497 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1259022502 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Allow me to correct that. < 1259022525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://sprunge.us/MGNM < 1259022529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There, now it actually rot13s. :P < 1259022570 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@92.135.153.21 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259022670 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If a note interrupts a system call and the note handler calls noted(NCONT), the system call terminates early with error string interrupted. This is very important, as it can be a cause of errors. Beware." < 1259022670 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, PC loser-ing! < 1259023205 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259023710 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1259023784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.apachenews.org/ < 1259023784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Issue: Must commit suicide < 1259023784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Resolution: CANTFIX < 1259023784 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Comments: < 1259023785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Could not find enough money for alcohol. […] Please donate. < 1259023831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/a74li/he_will_commit_suicide/c0g60ij) < 1259024310 0 :madbr!n=madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1259024611 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259024742 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi pikhq. < 1259024962 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hi ehird. < 1259024986 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Why am I tempted to play with NaCl? < 1259024997 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did you know that PC loser-ing as seen in the Worse is Better paper is still an actual issue (although of reduced importance, of course) in Plan 9 today? < 1259024998 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Grab some Na and some Cl and make popcorn < 1259025008 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"If a note interrupts a system call and the note handler calls noted(NCONT), the system call terminates early with error string interrupted. This is very important, as it can be a cause of errors. Beware." < 1259025012 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: because go supports it? < 1259025020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and this thus must be an implicit endorsement! < 1259025036 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nacl is cool, i just wish it didn't focus on web stuff < 1259025039 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: Go supports it? Well, then. That was my one major question. :) < 1259025057 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do wish that NaCl was a more generic sandboxing setup, yeah. < 1259025057 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, just set GOOS=nacl and go wild < 1259025069 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bonus: http://golang.org/pkg/exp/nacl/ < 1259025113 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :8g foo.go; 8l foo.8 will result in 8.out being whatever nacl wants, I expect < 1259025123 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suggest compiling with an x86 target on whatever host you have. < 1259025135 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, GOARCH=386 GOOS=nacl, I believe. < 1259025145 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's pretty nice for safe arbitrary code execution (never thought I'd say *that* about x86 code) in HTML, but it'd be really nice to see it used for, say, Plash. < 1259025148 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Although that might try and compile them as 386 compilers. < 1259025154 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :When in doubt, read the build system. :P < 1259025212 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm, nacl is x86 only. < 1259025218 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder if that includes amd64. < 1259025230 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if not, does it mean the browser has to run as x86, or just the plugin? < 1259025265 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Using 8* is obviously the only sane choice for NaCl with Go (probably compiled for amd64 for you), so it's only relevant as far as actually using the results goes. < 1259025266 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Almost certainly just the plugin. Though you *may* need to use nspluginwrapper. < 1259025405 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/structural_regexps/se.pdf is sweet < 1259025548 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://man.cat-v.org/unix_8th/1/visi is intriguing. (gawd, it's so easy to get lost in cat-v.org) < 1259025605 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its interface appears to be like vi except always in : mode < 1259025844 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: btw, a hidden bonus about Go — it contains a full port of Ken Thompson's Plan 9 C compilers to Linux/OS X compiling from and to all of arm, x86 and amd64. < 1259025854 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is a first < 1259025868 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somewhat nice. < 1259025871 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and since you can use it with plan9port's lib9 instead of libc... < 1259025880 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Voila: plan9port now has a compiler and a library. < 1259025886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1259025891 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/ and a library/d < 1259025898 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It already has lib9. :P < 1259025920 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So Plan9port can be used to run Plan9-esque things on Linux without too much effort. < 1259025945 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Go doesn't support Plan 9, yet the gc compiler is written in Plan 9 C. < 1259025952 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It may be a viable path! < 1259025957 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... < 1259025967 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Actually, that lets me write Plan 9 C. < 1259025970 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... :D < 1259025983 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yep. < 1259025991 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259025992 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259025992 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :leguin.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1259026018 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION recompiles plan9port as 64-bit; tries to compile plan 9 hello world < 1259026027 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1259026027 0 :Rembane!i=rembane@frikod.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259026027 0 :SimonRC!n=sc@fof.durge.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1259026050 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So, C that actually handles Unicode right without silly libraries... Or taking special care not to break the UTF-8. < 1259026075 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C with decent IO libraries, and an extensible printf. < 1259026081 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C that compiles really quickly. < 1259026092 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :C with Go-style inheritance (the bio library uses it, for instance). < 1259026096 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. Does the Plan 9 C compiler target NaCl? < 1259026106 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... C with Go-style inheritance? < 1259026108 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so. You could try. < 1259026113 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Yep; it has unnamed structs. < 1259026119 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oooh. < 1259026122 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct Bar { struct Foo *; } < 1259026126 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm. < 1259026129 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :struct Bar { struct Foo; } < 1259026143 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You can now use a (struct Bar *) as a (struct Foo *). < 1259026167 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So bar->fooField works, funcExpectingFoo(bar), etc. < 1259026175 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No interfaces, though, but still. It's nice. < 1259026184 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9/1/2c for more < 1259026288 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :tl;dr of the rest: (struct S){v1,v2,v3}. int a[] = {[3]1,[10]5}, a[3]==1. (struct S){.x 2, .y 3}. #pragma lib "foo" makes linker link foo automatically to this program (it's in library headers). printf typechecking. //comments work. long long=64-bit;vlong=long long;uvlong=unsigned long long; emulated on 32-bit (so no switch(){}) < 1259026482 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#pragma lib, eh... Man, that alone makes C nicer. < 1259026486 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, C build systems. < 1259026498 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deprecates autoconf. :P < 1259026525 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Furthermore, if your include files include any other include files you will be poked with a rusty stick, so don't do that. Also, use bio. < 1259026529 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's about it for Plan 9 C, really. < 1259026542 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, and exit statuses are strings; exits(0) for success, exits("foo") for failure. < 1259026555 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except plan9port just translates them to 0 or 1; sux2bu. < 1259026590 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Does plan9port at least put the error string to stderr? < 1259026598 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or something similar?) < 1259026606 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Nope, afaik. < 1259026608 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sorry. < 1259026616 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It isn't too much of a big deal in practice, anyway. < 1259026617 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Aaaaw. < 1259026630 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a huge deal, but would be nice. < 1259026783 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ 6c -I$PLAN9/include hello.c < 1259026785 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :erm < 1259026787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ 6c -I$PLAN9/include hello.c < 1259026787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/Users/ehird/plan9/include/u.h:5 hello.c:1 unknown #: if < 1259026787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/Users/ehird/plan9/include/u.h:6 hello.c:1 syntax error, last name: "" < 1259026797 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :First issue: plan9port, obviously, depends on non-plan9 things. < 1259026802 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Solution: -p. < 1259026806 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Invokes cpp before compiling. < 1259026809 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Note: HIDEOUS OW OW OW < 1259026821 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't exec C preprocessor /bin/cpp: No such file or directory < 1259026822 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the best start, I must say. < 1259026831 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION does cc -E hello.c < 1259026867 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, the #pragmas aren't there either, of course. Using Plan 9's header files may prove fruitful. < 1259026886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello2.c:60 not a function < 1259026886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello2.c:60 syntax error, last name: __darwin_va_list < 1259026886 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should probably look at Go's source. < 1259026959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ ls $GOROOT/include < 1259026959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ar.h fmt.h u.h ureg_x86.h < 1259026959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bio.h libc.h ureg_amd64.h utf.h < 1259026959 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bootexec.h mach.h ureg_arm.h < 1259026960 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Bingo. < 1259026965 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a < 1259026969 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oops < 1259026970 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm. < 1259026972 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's justs plan9port's. < 1259026975 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*just < 1259027017 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... Okay, so gc is compiled with gcc, just with lib9 instead of libc. < 1259027020 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Confusing. < 1259027043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ 6c hello.c < 1259027043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello.c:7 function args not checked: print < 1259027043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hello.c:8 function args not checked: exits < 1259027043 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Who needs headers. < 1259027080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :$ 6l /Users/ehird/plan9/lib/lib9.a hello.6 < 1259027080 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fails... < 1259027082 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :People who can't type-check by hand, that's who. :P < 1259027087 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: This will probably take quite some work. :P < 1259027118 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ooh, -l9 produces *different* errors! < 1259027172 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Eh. I give up for now. < 1259027443 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: Oh, I forgot one thing about Plan 9 C — no consst. < 1259027446 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*const < 1259027454 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, it may have been added since the paper. I doubt it, though. < 1259027460 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mixed feelings about that. < 1259027487 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The keywords register, volatile, and const, are recognised syntactically but are semantically ignored. Volatile seems to have no meaning, so it is hard to tell if ignoring it is a departure from the standard. Const only confuses library interfaces with the hope of catching some rare errors." < 1259027504 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :On the one hand: it is nice being able to enforce const. On the other hand, const in C is done very poorly. < 1259027518 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In general I agree; I don't think I've ever had a single error caught thanks to const-correctness, and when trying to transform my own code into const-correct style, type signatures blow up and become completely incomprehensible and useless. < 1259027583 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's almost as though the ISO committee saw the issues with function pointer declarations, and thought "Hmm. The problem with this is that it's not incomprehensible enough. Let's add a keyword!" < 1259027763 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The intelligence of a group is inversely proportional to the sum of the intelligence of everyone in it, clamped to a maximum value equal to that of the least intelligent person in the group. < 1259027766 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Prove me wrong. < 1259027773 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Erm, not inversely proportional in that way. < 1259027778 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A group with one dumb person is really dumb. < 1259027786 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But a group with two intelligent people isn't as intelligent as one intelligent person. < 1259027787 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You get the idea. < 1259028006 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Counter-example: the Haskell committee. < 1259028051 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1. Statistical anomalies exist; 2. maybe this isn't one. They really are that smart. < 1259028060 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#2 is only half-joking. < 1259028061 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION searches for the obligatory despair.com link < 1259028078 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://despair.com/meetings.html < 1259028084 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yeah, Haskell is probably a statistical anomaly. < 1259028102 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Filled with people who know exactly when to let go or something. < 1259028216 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or a small subset that dictate things. < 1259028252 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-169-6-59.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259028658 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1259028773 0 :bsmntbombdood_!n=gavin@97-118-189-194.hlrn.qwest.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259029287 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Java user signed off" < 1259029644 0 :bsmntbombdood!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable) < 1259030416 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KI8QLm8Inw i have no idea what this is < 1259030613 0 :ehird!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1259033061 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh dear. philosophy canceled again. then we'll have two weeks to get through 2/3 of Genealogy of Morality. < 1259034001 0 :Gracenotes_!n=person@wikipedia/Gracenotes JOIN :#esoteric < 1259034123 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1259034148 0 :Gracenotes_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Gracenotes < 1259034574 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259035786 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think I'm writing terrible code < 1259035787 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for i in (i for i in puzzle_objects.iterkeys() if i.startswith("#GREEN:")): < 1259036389 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :omg unpythonic! shun! shunn! < 1259036533 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :did I mention I dislike the word "pythonic"? Anyway.. not sure there's a cleaner way using generator expressions :/ they're not so much a substitute for filtering with effectful things :/ < 1259040078 0 :Sgeo_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259044345 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259045652 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1259045923 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Radiateur" < 1259046030 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259046042 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259046126 0 :bsmntbombdood_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :bsmntbombdood < 1259047432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1259048782 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1259049599 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1259049600 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1259049945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Network is unreachable < 1259052082 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259052086 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259053644 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@62.119.155.253 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259053834 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@77-100-194-169.cable.ubr04.pres.blueyonder.co.uk JOIN :#esoteric < 1259055426 0 :MigoMipo!i=3e779bfd@gateway/web/freenode/x-diwcpzjcnhzsbvvl JOIN :#esoteric < 1259056886 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-169-6-59.range86-169.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1259057089 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1259057142 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259071209 0 :FireFly!n=FireFly@82.182.180.137 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259071445 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-181-73.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1259078796 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1259078796 0 :clog!n=nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1259078797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what would you do if computer locked up in the morning with the disk lamp fixed on but not kernel panic or responding at all (needed reset button), memtest showing nothing after running for 8 hours, disk seeming to be just fine (once journal recovery completed) but last log message ended with some garbled chars < 1259078807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1259078816 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and about the same time the home alarm system broke down < 1259078827 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :some sort of electrical issues? < 1259078834 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'd assume a brownout, and try to REISUB, or failing that, hard-reboot < 1259078841 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, if you've rebooted already, it should be OK < 1259078844 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, reisub? < 1259078854 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: rebooting a Linux system by hand < 1259078858 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well I ran full fsck on all partitions too just in case. < 1259078868 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alt-(sysrq+r), alt-(sysrq+e), etc < 1259078874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, holding down power button *didn't* work. that's unusual < 1259078881 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I had to actually use the reset button instead < 1259078893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, sysrq didn't respond < 1259078897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I did test that < 1259078910 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, a brownout happens when a power supply malfunction means that the voltage input isn't high enough to cause the system to act correctly < 1259078920 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but isn't low enough to make it think there's been a power cut and power off < 1259078934 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm now that I think about it, I think one of the lamps flickered around then < 1259078935 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for a 5V system, it's normally somewhere around 4V < 1259078971 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally I wouldn't guess that, but it's plausible if other unrelated electronic devices have similar problems < 1259079020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well the home alarm system is completely broken, it reported a spurious alarm and now just shows a red single LED on the front marked "error" < 1259079030 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :going to get some service people here tomorrow < 1259079044 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownout_(electricity) < 1259079070 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most power supplies cope with them badly < 1259079075 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what's even more odd was that the disk access light was stuck at "accessing" but yet the harddrive was definitely spun down < 1259079092 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(my harddrive is rather loud) < 1259079111 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownout_(electricity) <-- redirects to "power outage" < 1259079116 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I've had plenty of brownouts when doing electronics myself, sometimes even deliberately < 1259079119 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I know < 1259079129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION considers getting an UPS < 1259079155 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its basic effect on most microprocessors and similar devices is to randomly set some of the bits in memory to 0 (or to 1, depending on how the memory works) < 1259079159 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Later" < 1259079161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :including things like registers < 1259079195 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :most computers can't recover sanely from that state; it might be interesting to try to write an esolang (with program stored in simulated ROM) where programs had to be able to < 1259079222 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, usually you use something like an UPS or such iirc? < 1259079251 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and is it even possible to recover in a sane way except 1) preventing it in the first place 2) detect it and force a reboot < 1259079269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: probably not; 2) is a very common solution < 1259079271 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION remembers some PIC with a "brown out detection" feature or such < 1259079296 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for servers/desktops I assume 1 is more common (as in UPS or similar) < 1259079299 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, it's common to get small brownout detectors that work at a range of voltages, that hard-reset the hardware if they detect a brownout < 1259079302 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 2 for embedded systems? < 1259079307 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: seems about right < 1259079320 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-14-193.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259079349 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, would a brown out cause "normal" light bulbs to dim but a fluorescent(sp?) one to flicker? < 1259079359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because if so I think it's a perfect match < 1259079366 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, seems about right < 1259079384 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normal lamps dimming is the most obvious effect, it's where the name brownout comes from < 1259079390 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because they go brown, but not altogether off < 1259079427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, a low energy lamp dimmed rather than flickered, and I thought they operated on similar principle to fluorescent ones? < 1259079434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1259079471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not entirely sure how they worked < 1259079488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :incidentally, were you recording the behaviour of all the lamps in your house when this happened? or do you/your family have a really good memory? < 1259079498 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or has it been browning out so constantly you've had time to go round and check? < 1259079502 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I was eating breakfast < 1259079514 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I was standing just besides a fluorescent lamp < 1259079524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a non-fluorescent in the window < 1259079535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and a low energy one also in view < 1259079556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, from system logs I reconstructed that the lock up must have happened at aprox the same time +- 5 minutes < 1259079572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, I found the computer locked up about 5 minutes after < 1259079592 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1259079593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and last system log message (something from cron) was about 10 minutes before I found it that way < 1259079637 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch, fsck definitely seems broken on this computer < 1259079645 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the logon autofsck keeps stopping at 89-90% < 1259079652 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with no disk activity, and with the computer locked up < 1259079666 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, home alarm system I noticed a short while later, and it hadn't been like that when I went downstairs. So that gives an aprox +/- 20 minutes range on the home alarm system error led turning on < 1259079670 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :around the same point in time < 1259079677 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, it did just go from 89 to 90 < 1259079686 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is strange given the lack of disk activitu < 1259079687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It didn't seem too far fetched to connect them < 1259079689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*activity < 1259079700 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh, I'll wait a while and see if it goes up higher < 1259079717 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm... is that the "mounted n times, fsck forced" fsck? < 1259079727 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1259079740 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except, hidden behind a graphical bootsplash thing < 1259079842 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw did you know that fsck.xfs just returns 0? < 1259079860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : fsck.xfs is called by the generic Linux fsck(8) program at startup to check and repair an XFS filesystem. XFS is a journaling filesystem < 1259079860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : and performs recovery at mount(8) time if necessary, so fsck.xfs simply exits with a zero exit status. < 1259079862 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from man page < 1259079897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there is xfs_check to actually check things if you want to < 1259079910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why do you use the bootsplash thing? < 1259079912 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1259079917 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's on there by default < 1259079925 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, one change in grub iirc? < 1259079939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :something like adding nosplash < 1259079941 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably < 1259079942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(if ubuntu) < 1259079953 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but Ubuntu change round the boot sequence every now and then < 1259079962 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and part of the reason I'm running Ubuntu is to try to debug it for everyone else < 1259080001 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah I'm still on jaunty < 1259080009 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :looks like there will be a kernel upgrade today < 1259080010 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sigh < 1259080065 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259080095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * SAUCE: Enable speakers for Toshiba NB200 (Realtek ALC272) < 1259080095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : - LP: #438318 < 1259080104 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what "sauce" means < 1259080115 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in that context < 1259080160 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't seem to refer to any kernel module < 1259080265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, at least the relevant part of the version number didn't change, so I don't have to mess around with the various external modules (virtualbox, backported wlan drivers, and so on) < 1259080668 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm what causes a brown out? < 1259080704 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: usual cause on the small scale is trying to draw too much current from one power supply < 1259080709 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it can happen on the large scale too < 1259080725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when the supply available for a neighborhood or an entire city isn't enough to meet demand < 1259080732 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1259081907 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 145 (Connection timed out) < 1259084416 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1259087094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, I just filed https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/487744 < 1259087104 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and there's something really wrong with the page < 1259087117 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Bug #487744 is not in Ubuntu: ..." < 1259087325 0 :ais523_!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259087991 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1259088183 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, file another bug about that? < 1259088206 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it looks like intentional behaviour < 1259088212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523_, try to boot from a livecd? < 1259088217 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and fsck from there < 1259088227 0 :ais523_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :ais523 < 1259088233 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, it boots well enough if I just skip the fsck < 1259088244 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and if something's wrong with fsck, it's possibly best not to run it < 1259088247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, maybe disk errors in unused blocks? < 1259088254 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :full badblocks on whole disk? < 1259088263 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that shouldn't crash fsck the way it does < 1259088276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, worth a try. From livecd of course < 1259088288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as for livecd, don't use an ubuntu one < 1259088292 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use some other < 1259088357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, use a livecd that isn't debian based for this in fact < 1259088381 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page < 1259088390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc that one is actually gentoo-based < 1259088404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :bbl < 1259088542 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gentoo liveCD is a contradiction < 1259089748 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1259090829 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no it isn't < 1259090835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, gentoo has one itself for install < 1259090837 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :installing* < 1259092370 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :IMO by definition that isn't gentoo < 1259092373 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even if it's used to install it < 1259093198 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it is in fact gentoo < 1259093203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is built from gentoo packages < 1259093230 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for that http://www.sysresccd.org/Main_Page you can even take it back to a gentoo system if you install it on an usb stick or such < 1259093378 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, know anything about UPS units that works well with linux? < 1259093394 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1259093399 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh well < 1259093401 0 :adam_d!n=Adam@AAnnecy-751-1-5-129.w90-52.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1259093522 0 :JohnTeddy!i=unstable@tor/regular/sid JOIN :#esoteric < 1259094161 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :From what I've heard, quite a lot of them work pretty well with Linux; assuming you count as "works well" the ability to get a basic level of status outputs and control out of it. And electricity, but it would be quite an oops of a UPS (see what I did there?!) if it had some OS dependencies for *that*. < 1259094170 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't really have hands-on experience with any, though. < 1259094232 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Linux boxes are a bit of a target market for UPS people, it isn't really surprising that they have better levels of support than some random gaming peripheral. < 1259094236 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION is wondering about price ranges too < 1259094268 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :after all I can find everything from cheap consumer crap to ultra-reliable ones meant for mission critical servers. < 1259094281 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm looking for a reasonable one for a desktop < 1259094295 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259094299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, random gaming peripheral? < 1259094322 0 :JohnTeddy!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1259094419 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The stuff they ship with Windows-only games (fake guitars, fake skateboard, fake whatever) nowadays. To be honest, I couldn't really figure out right then and there anything that really definitely wouldn't work with Linux; I'm not surprised if there are drivers for that stuff too. < 1259094454 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fake skateboard? wireless or *really* long cable? < 1259094458 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If I were to get a desktop UPS, I'd pick some respectible manufacturer (I have a good-ish feeling about APC, though no real evidence for it) and select something from their low-end range. < 1259094471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wouldn't it have to be ethernet, iirc the max length on usb cable is rather short) < 1259094487 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have no clue how it works. I don't think you're supposed to move around with it, just sort of... I don't know what, tilt and jump and whatnot. < 1259094495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1259094513 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, but wouldn't they generally just show up as a HID device of some sort? < 1259094515 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Hawk:_Ride here. < 1259094523 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The peripheral, shaped just like a real skateboard, is equipped with infrared sensors to detect motion and display it on-screen. Turning, leaning, hopping, and other actions will all reflect in the game realistically." < 1259094550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well that make pirating the thing harder I guess < 1259094553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :makes* < 1259094573 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, they might. Still, there's no *official* support, unlike for UPSes. (Admittedly official Linux support often means horrible kludgy crap, even when compared to some not-so-brilliant open-source hacks.) < 1259094577 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's like one of those "dongles" (remember those?) except this time the thing is actually required < 1259094597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you mean like nvidia drivers? < 1259094606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also aren't the windows thingies about as bad? < 1259094610 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :drivers there I mean < 1259094621 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I remember kludgy HP drivers for example < 1259094626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where scanning just didn't work well < 1259094636 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless you had done some weird stuff first < 1259094647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(of course it works flawlessly under linux) < 1259094686 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> "The peripheral, shaped just like a real skateboard, is equipped with infrared sensors to detect motion and display it on-screen. Turning, leaning, hopping, and other actions will all reflect in the game realistically." <-- I'm pretty sure a real one has wheels. Unless someone invented a hover skateboard recently < 1259094722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hover skateboard sounds cool btw < 1259094737 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It sounds very back-to-the-future-ish. If you've seen the movie. < 1259094751 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, yes I have. years ago < 1259094760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :now that you mention it, it sounds familiar < 1259094762 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In fact I first read that Wikipedia bit without the word "shaped": "The peripheral, just like a real skateboard, is equipped with infrared sensors to detect motion and display it on-screen." < 1259094771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1259094773 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it had hoverboards, but I might be wrong. < 1259094817 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"A Hoverboard (or hover board) is a fictional hovering board used for personal transportation in the films Back to the Future Part II and Back to the Future Part III." < 1259094838 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, couldn't you build an actual hover skateboard though? I mean, based on classical hover principles rather than some sort of fictional anti-gravity < 1259094845 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Some companies hoping to leverage the commercial success of the movies have marketed hovercraft vehicles as hoverboards, but these products have not been shown to replicate the experience depicted in the movies." Haha. "What, really?!" < 1259094878 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You could build something, but I doubt it'd be quite as sleek and well-behaved. < 1259094913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, you could make it computer controlled. Like an dynamically unstable aircraft (you know what those are?) < 1259094916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hoversegway! < 1259094927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hey I was going to mention segway next < 1259094932 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :MythBusters did one, in fact, out of a surfboard and leaf-blowers. (The WP article I was quoting from contains also this tidbit, though now that I've read it, I do remember that episode too.) < 1259094936 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that it might be a good example < 1259094941 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Java user signed off" < 1259094949 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh? how did it work out? < 1259094969 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of the future, we were thinking of getting a Roomba, for the cat to drive around with. I've seen all those Youtube videos about it. < 1259094986 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@75-106-100-139.cust.wildblue.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1259094989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is a "Roomba"? < 1259095022 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's one of those robotic vacuum things. It might even be the first commercially-successful-on-the-consumer-markets-really one, for all I know. < 1259095025 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :isn't it a sort of robotic vaccum cleaner? < 1259095028 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh okay < 1259095033 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I didn't think cats rode them, though < 1259095069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, looking at wp article it would be unable to fit under my desk. Too short distance between floor and lowest drawers < 1259095077 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :otherwise I think it would be cool < 1259095089 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: Youtube “cat roomba” results 1 - 20 of about 313. (Admittedly not all are a cat riding a Roomba; some are of other sort of cat-Roomba-interactions.) < 1259095144 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :But the first hit, with over 4 million views, is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-jv8g1YVI < 1259095285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, strange the cat didn't get off when it turned around so much < 1259095303 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :As for the MythBusters hover-thing, I seem to remember they had some sort of competition race on the beach or something. I don't think it worked quite so well on uneven sand, but reasonably well on flat ground. It's just that having four (or was it two?) leaf-blowers running full blast right below you is probably not included in your hoverboarding daydreams. < 1259095342 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :damn that thing is noisy < 1259095350 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, yeah < 1259095353 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a pitty < 1259095373 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, but a normal vacuum cleaner is noisy too < 1259095373 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but would be a cool pet if it was silent. < 1259095376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about as bad < 1259095386 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, or at least quiet < 1259095386 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah, but it gets the job done faster < 1259095393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't have to be completely silent < 1259095393 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact < 1259095398 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :completely silent would be bad < 1259095406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no way you will trip over that loud thing < 1259095412 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but a silent one? Possibly < 1259095416 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why? < 1259095431 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The newer models should be a *bit* less noisy, but I don't really know anyone who'd have one, so I could go and listen. The noise part is something that's making us a bit vary, though. < 1259095431 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i guess there could be a version that makes a sound for blind ppl < 1259095432 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, would you notice one moving about in a half dark room? < 1259095468 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it has this small light < 1259095474 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: At least with the noise you'll have some sort of advance warning when it turns evil and comes to murder you. < 1259095491 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean, it's an electronic gizmo dizmo, so it has a light < 1259095503 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(All robots do that sooner or later, it's like a law or something.) < 1259095521 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, it could stop the noisy part until it moved up just right behind you < 1259095543 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess it could. Hmmmm, now I'm not sure we dare to get one. < 1259095553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why doesn't normal computers turn evil too? < 1259095579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I mean, they likely have way more computational resources than that. < 1259095593 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only difference is that it isn't on wheels < 1259095600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or legs or whatever) < 1259095607 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION imagines a thinkpad with wheels < 1259095610 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<lame> they do, it's called windows </lame> < 1259095629 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok, isn't that thing just a joke? < 1259095645 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Speaking of which, the company (iRobot) *does* make also some sort of development platform, that's basically a Roomba without the "noisy part", i.e. the cleaning machinery. There's just a microcontroller you can program to do whatever you want, and some sort of empty space to put whatever you want in. < 1259095656 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway computers couldn't really kill people, the law actually states that everything that thinks, and can kill, eventually will < 1259095658 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I mean, they pre-install this joke windows so as to not end up in a distro flamewar just becaused they selected kubuntu instead of ubuntu < 1259095659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or such < 1259095661 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://store.irobot.com/shop/index.jsp?categoryId=3311368 -- their website is a bit messy, though. < 1259095664 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right? < 1259095673 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, it's just alme < 1259095673 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(sic) < 1259095682 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1259095685 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's what you meant < 1259095691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alme? < 1259095694 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alme. < 1259095701 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't get the joke < 1259095716 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The joke was too alme for you to ge.t < 1259095717 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's ok < 1259095726 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ge.t? < 1259095728 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;P < 1259095748 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<oklokok> anyway computers couldn't really kill people, the law actually states that everything that thinks, and can kill, eventually will <-- do robots think? < 1259095753 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well I guess it depends < 1259095772 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so does it like learn the apartment? < 1259095772 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like where rooms are < 1259095776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine some simple one that was designed out of Lego. I have programmed for RCX. No way it could think < 1259095778 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and systematically clean it < 1259095839 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: your mom doesn't think < 1259095849 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklokok: The actual Roomba? No; in fact, as far as I know, it decidedly doesn't try to learn it at all. There's just some messy heuristics involved, and a lot of random-walking around. They claim that makes it more robust. < 1259095868 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mmkay, it looked pretty idiotic in the cat vid < 1259095888 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, well, our cat is not the most clever thing ever either. They could suit each other just fine. < 1259095941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that seems very illogical way to do it < 1259095943 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, doesn't a two-dimensional random walk eventually cover the whole plane? I think it does. (I have no idea how it does for differently-shaped polygonal enclosed regions, though.) < 1259095952 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1259095961 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :logical way is to build a map as you go along, and update it if you notice changes < 1259095977 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and i'm sure it covers all polygons as well < 1259095981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like when you pass near where there was a chair leg before, see if there is still anything there with your sensors < 1259095994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if not, clean there too < 1259095996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and so on < 1259096018 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> Anyway, doesn't a two-dimensional random walk eventually cover the whole plane? I think it does. (I have no idea how it does for differently-shaped polygonal enclosed regions, though.) <-- I think one key word here is "eventually" < 1259096019 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well umm < 1259096019 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :actually < 1259096024 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's obvious that it covers any finite region < 1259096039 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: It's just that the thing can't really know where it is started from, and anyway that sort of stuff is nontrivial. I'm sure their engineers have better sort of things to do. < 1259096043 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for infinite regions, we know it covers the whole infinite plane < 1259096058 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, "eventually" monkeys + typewriters = shakespear. Even in a finite number < 1259096062 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"eventually" < 1259096082 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, but for most apartments, this is a lot smaller "eventually" we're talking about here. < 1259096084 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not so sure about infinite polygons < 1259096085 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<fizzie> AnMaster: It's just that the thing can't really know where it is started from, and anyway that sort of stuff is nontrivial. I'm sure their engineers have better sort of things to do. <-- try to match it against previous map < 1259096095 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see if you get a good enough fit < 1259096108 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if you have a few teleports you could simulate a 3d topology with it < 1259096112 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1259096121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, or use a GPS maybe. Not sure if that is accurate enough (even assuming you can get a signal indoors, I usually can that at least) < 1259096123 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and in 3d a random walk does not cover the plane < 1259096157 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :GPS is very much not accurate enough for that, and anyway it would cost to add a GPS receiver. < 1259096165 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :true < 1259096176 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PolyasRandomWalkConstants.html was in fact the result I was sort of remembering. < 1259096187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway you could have some sort of "reset maps, we moved to a different apartment" button < 1259096221 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1259096227 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So if you live at point P on the infinite plane, and kick off the Roomba, it'll eventually come back to you. (That might be a rather long "eventually" here.) < 1259096259 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that doesn't say anything about infinite polygons < 1259096266 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Anyway, I am under the impression that some of the other robotic vacuum thingies do build maps too. < 1259096285 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, no it won't < 1259096290 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it has finite battery < 1259096299 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it *may or may not* come back < 1259096301 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although intuitively it seems restricting the map would just make it harder to get away from the origin... < 1259096313 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, you have to assume an ideal Roomba here. < 1259096318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ah. < 1259096319 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ah, here's the justification I was looking for: < 1259096321 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unlike the Electrolux Trilobite vacuuming robots, Roombas do not map out the rooms they are cleaning. Instead, they rely on a few simple algorithms such as spiral cleaning, wall-following and random walk angle-changing after bumping into an object or wall. This design is based on MIT researcher and iRobot CTO Rodney Brooks' philosophy that robots should be like insects, equipped with simple control mechanisms tuned to their environments. The result is that < 1259096321 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although Roombas are effective at cleaning rooms, they take several times as long to do the job as a person would, usually covering some areas many times and others only once or occasionally not at all. < 1259096352 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :#esoteric, the only place where discussing a vacuum cleaner robot on an infinte plain will ever happen < 1259096397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, which seems quite pointless. I want things properly cleaned < 1259096403 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i haven't actually seen proof of the random walk + plane thing, would probably make it easier to see if the probability stays at 1 if you restrict the path < 1259096449 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Well, you're a deterministic sort of a person. Statistically speaking they do clean things properly, the differences even out. < 1259096465 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on R^2, i imagine a random curve would return to any open ball around the origin < 1259096488 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and probably by adding an infinite amount of circles on the plane, each having a smaller hole than the last < 1259096490 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what is the time complexity of roomba cleaning in a finite room though? < 1259096495 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or something like that < 1259096534 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you could make the probability of getting from x to y to < 1... i think... maybe < 1259096553 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also, I like this part: "After a certain amount of time -- the Roomba stops and sings a few triumphant notes. If a homebase is detected, a second- or third-generation Roomba will try to return to it. -- If at any time the unit senses that it has become stuck, no longer senses the floor beneath it, or it decides that it has worked its way into a narrow area from which it is unable to escape, it stops and sounds a mournful tone to help its owner find it." < 1259096559 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That's just somehow so cute. < 1259096569 0 :oklokok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if it was like more probable to always get to an outer circle than an inner one < 1259096572 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A mournful tune! < 1259096586 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely wonders what would cause a failure to sense the floor < 1259096599 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Somebody turning it upside down < 1259096617 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or running down the stairs and ending up upside-down; though it's supposed to avoid stairs normally. < 1259096638 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, hm... a mapping robot would avoid those issues < 1259096659 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, not during initial mapping < 1259096680 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do think a mapping robot can also get stuck or confused just fine; the real world is a fuzzy thing. < 1259096682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it could be built to detect with ultrasound or radar if there was somewhere it wouldn't firt < 1259096685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fit* < 1259096688 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then back up < 1259096695 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, radar < 1259096718 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well or ultrasonic < 1259096729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolux_Trilobite seems to have an ultrasonic sensor < 1259096757 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"This object detection is fairly reliable, but sometimes fails if the robot approaches an object with a sharp corner." < 1259096764 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :See, it's not a clear-cut thing. < 1259096780 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, true. but that is where mapping helps after the initial mapping run < 1259096797 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure your ideal robotic vacuuming device is very cost-efficient. There's a point of diminshing returns somewhere in the piling up of intelligence on it. < 1259096805 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(But certainly mapping is a viable strategy too.) < 1259096843 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, mapping shouldn't be too expensive, memory is cheap and the programming for it only need to be done once < 1259096859 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You need to pay a lot for competent programmers. :p < 1259096867 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, a mapping robot is decidedly closer to a planning robot, and a planning robot is again closer to a scheming robot, and a scheming robot is just a couple of short steps from the robotic revolution. < 1259096893 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Even if it's not too expensive, the idea is that it's not too useful < 1259096910 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"When we reported about the new Electrolux Trilobite 2.0 Vacuum robot last Friday, we asked the question why this vacuum robot ($1,799 at Amazon.com) is about 10 times more expensive than the iRobot Roomba ($159.99 at Amazon.com)." (This is from 2004, though.) < 1259096958 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: a scheming robot would be closer to being properly functional < 1259096973 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, sure I didn't say the ultrasound sensor *wasn't* expensive < 1259096980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just said that mapping isn't a lot more expensive < 1259096980 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Also; the serial interface of the Roomba is documented, you can easily provide as much intelligence as you like by sticking some additional hardware on top. < 1259096992 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :okay that is niec < 1259096994 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nice* < 1259097020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, anyway it seems the trilobite gets the job done quicker < 1259097025 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :unless I misunderstood things < 1259097079 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The advantage there is mostly power saving, since the idea is to leave it on for the 8 hours you're at work or whatever < 1259097134 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure we want to spend a four-digit number of euros on it, also. (Some Finnish price-comparison site lists the ZA 2 /2.0 Trilobite at 1259 EUR.) < 1259097141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, what about home office? < 1259097168 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not the target market. < 1259097179 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Supposedly it's also somewhat more noisy. (But also sucks more, in the "good" sense.) < 1259097201 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This is all just hearsay from reviews, though. I'd like to hear both myself somewhere. < 1259097283 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, useful for people who are allergic to various things (like me) < 1259097316 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(getting rid of the damn pollen every spring is a high priority for me at least) < 1259097836 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1259100754 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1259100860 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :initial response: "I see the reversed-text thing, but why did they badly photoshop lips onto John's girlfriend?" After looking at the original: "Oh, Jim Davis really did draw them that badly." http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=207 < 1259101269 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION continues memorising a 20-char random password for work < 1259101280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, joke? < 1259101289 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no < 1259101293 0 :Rembane!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC: Tattoo it on your forearm! < 1259101300 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, why did you choose something that long < 1259101306 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to show off < 1259101551 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SimonRC, you aren't supposed to show off passwords < 1259101556 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they are supposed to be secret < 1259101561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is the whole point < 1259101712 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@92.135.9.197 JOIN :#esoteric < 1259101794 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1259102276 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you can boast about the length though < 1259102278 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;-) < 1259103072 0 :immibis!n=immibis@125-236-168-223.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1259104111 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1259104136 0 :immibis_!n=immibis@125-236-168-223.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1259104277 0 :immibis_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259104292 0 :immibis_!n=immibis@125-236-168-223.jetstream.xtra.co.nz JOIN :#esoteric < 1259104427 0 :immibis_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1259104550 0 :immibis!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 60 (Operation timed out) < 1259105072 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1259105291 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :18:03:36 <ehird> Or a small subset that dictate things. < 1259105307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1259105309 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and now < 1259105310 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :night < 1259105312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :→ < 1259105359 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i do recall reading the haskell committee had a daily designated syntax dictator, who had the final word on all syntax issues < 1259105382 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i'm sure this helped immensely < 1259105595 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :see also: wadler's law < 1259106725 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyone here know any Forth? < 1259106775 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :2 2 + . < 1259106784 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that's about it ;) < 1259106790 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you know about /mod, right? < 1259106810 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, is it something like haskell's divmod? < 1259106837 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*divMod < 1259106841 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1259106842 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit yeah < 1259106857 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I just realised I have a better place to ask my question < 1259106858 0 :SimonRC!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nvm < 1259106870 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :go #forth and divide < 1259106951 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :augur[hw]