< 1260232099 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260232252 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260234468 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260235464 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260235644 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260236125 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260236351 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"OMG NO!!!!!! DON"T TOUCH MY LEFT PINKY!!!!!" < 1260237788 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260237794 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260238192 0 :jix!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260238628 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260239599 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242379 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242380 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242380 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242380 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242387 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242387 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242387 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242387 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242389 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242389 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260242459 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-112-215.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260242459 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260243167 0 :sunrider!unknown@unknown.invalid PART #esoteric :? < 1260244263 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260244677 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244677 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244678 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244679 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244682 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244682 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244682 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244684 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244685 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244685 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260244892 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@h-28-236.A159.priv.bahnhof.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244892 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260244931 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-112-215.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245102 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260245116 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245126 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260245191 0 :`Fuco`!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245248 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245249 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245249 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245253 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245253 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245253 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245253 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245254 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245254 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245254 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245254 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245317 0 :`Fuco`!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-112-215.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245317 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245396 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hello guys, I think you might find this interesting: http://fi.muni.cz/~xgoljer/bf.txt :) < 1260245564 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260245640 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245641 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245644 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245645 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245675 0 :`Fuco`!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-112-215.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245675 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245838 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245838 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245839 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260245900 0 :`Fuco`!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245900 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245900 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245900 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245900 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245900 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260245968 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@82.182.180.137 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246147 0 :OxE6!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246147 0 :Slereah_!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-112-215.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246155 0 :comex!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246184 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246184 0 :fizzie!i=fis@iris.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246184 0 :fungot!n=fungot@momus.zem.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246188 0 :comex!i=comex@c-98-210-192-54.hsd1.ca.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246631 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260246771 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246854 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246854 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246854 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246855 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246855 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246855 0 :Leonidas!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260246885 0 :AnMaster!n=AnMaster@unaffiliated/anmaster JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246885 0 :Leonidas!n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246885 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246885 0 :HackEgo!n=HackEgo@codu.xen.prgmr.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246885 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246885 0 :lament!n=lament@S0106001b63f462cc.vc.shawcable.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246885 0 :uorygl!n=warrie@lunch.normish.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260246962 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260252518 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260252522 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260253079 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260254497 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260255498 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Busy beaver is a computer science problem to finding the smallest Turing Machine that outputs the most data and eventually halts. This project is an implementation of a Turing Machine in Python and C++ that runs the busy beavers. It also comes with Turing Machine’s tape visualization tool written in Perl. < 1260255531 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are the first few Busy beavers for brainfuck? < 1260255547 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or similar ? if someone has done a search < 1260255627 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260255641 0 :MizardX!i=MizardX@unaffiliated/mizardx JOIN :#esoteric < 1260255742 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :. is the one for length 1. Happy to help. < 1260255755 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what does that print?????? < 1260255778 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Most likely a zero byte. < 1260256004 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the best way to try and find busy beavers? < 1260256050 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And what's the smallest brainfuck program that halts and outputs more bytes than the program code has? < 1260256087 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari I guess if I found the first few busy beavers I would answer that ? < 1260256164 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have a nagging feeling that the subject of a busy-beaver-like function for brainfuck was talked about here once, but I can't really seem to find any references to it. < 1260256228 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wwhat's another language than brainfuck which automatic termination analysis is easier? < 1260256269 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you assume a brainfuck implementation where the cell values are bounded and wrap around, my guess for Ilari's program would be "+[.+]" -- that doesn't look like it could be simplified very much. < 1260256295 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh right it is ok for Ilaris question not to terminate < 1260256317 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No, he said "that halts"; but that one does halt if the cell values wrap-around. < 1260256323 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260256348 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course for a question that smells so theoretical, you might opt for some sort of idealized infinite-tape infinite-cell-size brainfuck. < 1260256382 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... And with unbounded cells it should be more interesting. Of course one has to define what "output byte" means in that case. '.' invocation? < 1260256422 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I think you should count the number of . operations there. < 1260256470 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And specify deterministicalistically what , will do, or disallow it completely. < 1260256480 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah disallow , < 1260256499 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least shortest program that loads cell under pointer by at least 5 greater than its length could be used to construct program that prints more than its length. < 1260256581 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260256636 0 :puzzlet!n=puzzlet@147.46.241.168 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260256681 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, +++[...-] will output 9 values -- the same as the program length -- and you can add one + or ., so that's an upper bound for the size of the smallest Ilari-program. < 1260256689 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(See, I made up a name for it.) < 1260256715 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::)))))) < 1260256780 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :+++[....-] is first of those two in ASCII order. < 1260256892 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the busy-beaver like function for BF is of course how many times program of n bytes can invoke . and still halt. Obiviously, its strictly increasing function. < 1260256896 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :- comes before . so +++[-....] would be before that. < 1260256928 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe you can equate [-....] and [....-] < 1260256965 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*it is < 1260256987 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and those programs can't contain ',') < 1260257146 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is this a good strategy: enum and run every brainfuck program of the set length -- with a timeout < 1260257161 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the ones that timed out you keep them in a list to inspect by hand (bcaesue they might not terminate) < 1260257199 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the first brainfuck program that generates some output that is just too huge to deal with? < 1260257203 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that terminates) < 1260257219 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I guess nobody has found it yet.... < 1260257422 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :any better way/improvements?? < 1260257579 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i just know people have tried this for tm's, http://www.answers.com/busy%20beaver#current_6-state.2C_2-symbol_best_contender < 1260257698 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lol @ lower bound functions < 1260257729 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well finding the minimum vavlue for it is hard but its still silly < 1260258118 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems a bit silly i suppose. i wonder what their methods are < 1260258271 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh lower bound functions, for some reason you just meant lower bounds for specific values < 1260258286 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no lower bound function < 1260258295 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but any computable function is a lower bound < 1260258301 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260258345 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :=> silly < 1260258422 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think that 100 byte BF program, lower bound for number of times it can invoke . and still halt is 11 757 312. For 1 000 byte program, same costructs give 382 748 214 098 589 572 136 663 385 960 069 669 070 838 715 433 037 453 066 072 476 832... < 1260258442 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what?? < 1260258446 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how did you get these numbers < 1260258462 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Pick a construction and calculate from that. < 1260258624 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: ah, you've been calculating busy beaver for BF? < 1260258792 0 :cal153!n=cal@66-162-68-164.static.twtelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260258930 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: And what was the construction for those numbers? < 1260259009 0 :MigoMipo!n=MigoMipo@84-217-3-184.tn.glocalnet.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260259156 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Some structure the multiplies the number of . by 6 for each level... and +7 somewhere. < 1260259199 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :ended < 1260259200 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260259208 0 :MizardX!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or maybe not < 1260259463 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Okay, looks like one can do much better. 100 byte program giving 2^2^2097152 .'s < 1260259492 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari you've written it? < 1260259790 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oops. It doesn't quite work out. Attempting to fix it yields only 2^2^262144... < 1260259865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what's the maximum Turing Machine complexity for which the busy beaver number is known exactly? < 1260259887 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in theory, if we keep brute-forcing up through the complexities < 1260259897 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we'll eventually find out what the simplest mathematical question we don't know the answer to is < 1260259990 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260260010 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: it's in my link, was it size 4 < 1260260016 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260260029 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hmm... anybody want to figure out wheither this halts and if it does, how many times it outputs stuff: ++++++[>++++++<-]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>[.-] < 1260260043 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for one tape symbol, and 4 states that is < 1260260062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: that's just a copy of the Wikipedia article in a worse interface... < 1260260089 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, i'm not sure why that's relevant < 1260260108 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i would use wikipedia, but i also check words, and answers has a simpler url. < 1260260153 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Unless it got screwed up somehow: 2^2^68719476736... < 1260260191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oklofok: does your web browser not have a search box in the top-right corner that can be set to Wikipedia? < 1260260242 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: yes, it's set to google atm. < 1260260258 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I change the setting according to what I'm looking for < 1260260261 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mine even has an Esolang setting < 1260260285 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(although, for some reason, to look up words I use Wikipedia but with a wikt: prefix) < 1260260376 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: do you like big things? regexes and now bb... < 1260260458 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There has to be even more powerful ways to pump up the numbers than exponential pumping. Perhaps not in 100-byte programs but for larger ones... < 1260260475 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260260487 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there's is always a more complicated way < 1260260508 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ilari: i'm fairly sure there are better ways in <100 programs... < 1260260515 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*byte < 1260260544 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i mean it's not *that much* less powerful than tm's < 1260260628 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's fairly obvious how to compile BF to a TM < 1260260644 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's pretty much just a TM with a few extra restrictions < 1260260662 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we're interested in the other way < 1260260668 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well direction < 1260260695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260260712 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just uncall the compiler < 1260260945 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: You have a brainfuck interpreter, what do you think about that program Ilari asked about? < 1260260946 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute ( base 8 fnord should a thread be given a lot of < 1260260957 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :doesn't work < 1260260960 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because not all possible TMs are the direct translation of some BF program < 1260260981 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, that fungot comment would have been so perfect if it stopped before the paren < 1260260982 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: http://sourceforge.net/ donate/ fnord to http://en.wikibooks.org/ wiki/ 2006_esolang_contestcommittee. < 1260261062 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :beh, http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/2006_esolang_contest_committee is blank < 1260261075 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no entries in the deletion log, either < 1260261111 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I should count the likelihood of fungot mentioning brainfuck to see how much of a coincidence that was; as far as I know, it still doesn't use the "input" sentence at all when constructing the reply. < 1260261111 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: i'll bet this would be good for anything but a k-like combinator ( fnord) fnord < 1260261123 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait what that was accidental?? < 1260261129 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :i though fizzie wrote that answer :D < 1260261148 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute" <<< this is a perfect answer :| < 1260261163 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :technically not true, but clearly a strong AI < 1260261179 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`qdb fizzie: i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute < 1260261180 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: hey man that's python or something even more bizarre and inexplicable. < 1260261180 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260261191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, what's HackEgo's qdb syntax again? < 1260261654 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-133-82.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260261930 0 :puzzlet!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260262216 0 :Slereah_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260262324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`, hm about that link you posted before < 1260262325 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260262334 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :argh. < 1260262342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, fix this somehow ^ < 1260262354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(compare with nick list maybe?) < 1260262406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`, anyway, you say in the comment at the start that rcfunge is broken? Yet iirc it passes those parts in mycology. So care to say how exactly those instructions are broken < 1260262406 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260262442 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`, this interests me greatly since I'm the developer of one of the other befunge-98 interpreters (cfunge). < 1260262442 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260262442 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260262465 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I suspect Deewiant will be interested too, since he wrote the befunge-98 testsuite mycology < 1260262506 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You said that wrong; it is "this is relevant to my interests", not "this interests me". < 1260262524 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, oh? < 1260262560 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh it seems to be "reflect on EOF/error" < 1260262561 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes; I'm referring to http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Relevant of course. (Unless you were one of the people avoiding links to that site.) < 1260262565 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :iirc cfunge handles that < 1260262576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heck, it even does it for stdout < 1260262581 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(it ignores SIGPIPE) < 1260262591 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, I avoid it of course < 1260262604 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not really "of course", but whatever. < 1260262651 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260262652 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260262653 0 :rodgort!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260262699 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`, considering http://fi.muni.cz/~xgoljer/rcfunge-fix.txt I'm confident cfunge will work for you < 1260262699 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260262757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`, be aware of that cfunge requires a *nix system. It won't work on Windows except under cygwin, and even under cygwin it requires quite a bit of work to make it work < 1260262758 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260262912 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260262977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!bf_txtgen Hello world! < 1260262981 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260262983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :!help < 1260262996 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Gregor, where is egobot?........................................................ < 1260263022 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`, just tested it, it works under cfunge < 1260263136 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260263146 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a bit irritating there is no newline after End < 1260263153 0 :rodgort`!n=rodgort@li14-39.members.linode.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263224 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263224 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263224 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263224 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263273 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263273 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@82.182.180.137 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263273 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263273 0 :Ilari!n=user@88.113.39.59 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263281 0 :Ilari_!n=user@88.113.39.59 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263380 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-133-82.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263380 0 :lifthrasiir!i=daXp7mox@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263381 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260263388 0 :BeholdMyGlory_!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :BeholdMyGlory < 1260263731 0 :Ilari__!n=user@a88-113-39-59.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263742 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263742 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263812 0 :Ilari_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263815 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263815 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263815 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260263849 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260263850 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@82.182.180.137 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263850 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263850 0 :Ilari!n=user@88.113.39.59 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260263913 0 :lifthrasiir!i=vAO7W2tp@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260264068 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@86.158.81.44 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260264076 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-133-82.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260264297 0 :Slereah!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260264315 0 :Slereah!n=Slereah@ANantes-259-1-133-82.w92-139.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260264452 0 :Ilari!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection refused < 1260264470 0 :Ilari__!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Ilari < 1260264617 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Success < 1260264798 0 :ais523!i=93bcc029@gateway/web/freenode/x-rrvvdacyvphuxhht JOIN :#esoteric < 1260265075 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260265075 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260265131 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@86.158.81.44 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260265131 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@82.182.180.137 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260265311 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi ais523 < 1260265319 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hi < 1260265621 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260265736 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260265787 0 :`Fuco`!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260265840 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you said mathematica was slow, but fast at some specific things iirc? < 1260265851 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260265924 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, slow on stuff like? < 1260265943 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, managing NextPrime[800!] in less than a minute doesn't seem too slow to me for example < 1260265966 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: slow on stuff that isn't a simple combination of primitives < 1260265974 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :NextPrime[800!] is a simple combination of primitives < 1260265978 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well right < 1260265993 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so any time you have to write a loop by hand, for instance (even using map or fold) < 1260266001 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or whatever they're called in Mathematica) < 1260266019 0 :facsimile!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260266028 0 :facsimile!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260266038 0 :sebbu2!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260266081 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260266100 0 :quantumEd!n=somebody@unaffiliated/fax JOIN :#esoteric < 1260266114 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260266114 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260266115 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260266116 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260266116 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260266116 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260266116 0 :sebbu2!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :sebbu < 1260266170 0 :Deewiant!n=deewiant@kosh.hut.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260266170 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260266423 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Map is called Map -- "Map[f, expr] or f/@expr applies f to each element on the first level in expr" -- and fold is called Fold -- "Fold[f, x, list] gives the last element of FoldList[f, x, list]. FoldList[f, x, {a, b, ...}] gives {x, f[x, a], f[f[x, a], b], ...}." < 1260266529 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260266810 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh I can't get parallel stuff in mathematica to work < 1260266815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it seems to block the main thread < 1260266833 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I can't evaluate something in one thread then evaluate other stuff elsewhere < 1260267246 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how much of mathematica is written in mathematica? < 1260267260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :considering what you said about speed I guess "almost none"? < 1260267264 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :none that matters < 1260267278 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's either wrappers or written in C, I think (although I don't know for certain as I haven't seen the code) < 1260267304 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet the docs claim that mathematica is so fast and great and everything < 1260267307 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260267347 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/tutorial/TheSoftwareEngineeringOfMathematica.html < 1260267466 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, they claim it's fast because things like NextPrime have been so carefully optimised by hand < 1260267474 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and written in a non-Mathematica language < 1260267488 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they didn't really realise that if it were truly fast, they wouldn't /have/ to do that < 1260267571 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260267586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so they are saying that C is fast basically < 1260267604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, they're saying their algos are fast too < 1260267607 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is interesting, and important < 1260267616 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this is why Mathematica is so fast for doing combinations of primitive < 1260267618 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*primitives < 1260267622 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because the primitives are implemented very well < 1260267643 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it basically has similar speed properties to Thutu once you try to do something more complicated < 1260267649 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because it's much the same language, just with a worse syntax < 1260267665 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well, in theory you could optimise better by taking advantage of exactly how the primitive is used < 1260267677 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes but AFAICT it doesn't < 1260267711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like if the domain isn't all integers, but only all odd integers, you can skip checking in prime checks if a number is a multiple of 2 < 1260267719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that one won't save much < 1260267733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I suspect there are cases which saves a whole lot in theory < 1260267752 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION vaguely wonders how to ask Mathematica for a list of all even primes < 1260267757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, Thutu is really slow isn't it? < 1260267762 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :without optimising by hand and just writing [2] < 1260267773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, because it has to keep rescanning the string to find out what to do < 1260267780 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's O(n) slower than other langs, typically < 1260267792 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :imagine a processor that kept losing the IP and having to scan the entire program to find where it was, it's like that < 1260267797 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh. Why not ask it to find an instance that disproves the Riemann conjecture? < 1260267815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you mean it doesn't use any AST? < 1260267816 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: because the first should be relatively easily expressible in a programming language, but I'm not sure it is < 1260267826 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and I invented a feather-like language < 1260267827 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no, I don't mean that < 1260267830 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not as such < 1260267832 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :inspired by < 1260267838 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it operates on pattern matching behind the scenes < 1260267852 0 :lament!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a feather-like tarpit? < 1260267877 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: go on, although I doubt feather-like is very easy to achieve at all without being utterly different < 1260267893 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, think a mathematica notebook, but every change of a definition of a function or variable below will update all prior usages of it. Of course this becomes interesting if you use it in a condition such that you only redefine it if it has it's original definition < 1260267915 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in which case it would never have been redefined < 1260267915 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Mathematica actually /has/ that, to some extent < 1260267920 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :leading to a contradiction < 1260267922 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you put Interactive[] around the definition, or something like that < 1260267927 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260267930 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then you have to edit actual uses of the number < 1260267939 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think you can edit processed results to get a goal-seek < 1260267942 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*{2} < 1260267947 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260267948 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION was forgetting Mathematica syntax... < 1260267969 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think: < 1260267970 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :x=2 < 1260267979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(here I don't know mathematica syntax:) < 1260267987 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if[x==2] x=4 < 1260267993 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably x:=2, but I'm not sure either < 1260267993 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :this would lead to a paradox < 1260267998 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and that would be if[x==2,x=4] < 1260268000 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very similar to the grand father paradox < 1260268006 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, okay < 1260268014 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, it is =, not :=, I think now < 1260268017 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I'm vaguely confused < 1260268021 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I said = < 1260268022 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1260268023 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you're not really meant to use variables in Mathematica < 1260268064 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :much the same way as you're not really meant to use loops in J < 1260268072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it claims to be state of the art at procedural programming. As well as offering unique enhanced advantages for functional programming. < 1260268074 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although presumably they're expressable somehow (maybe a convoluted waY) < 1260268079 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*way < 1260268079 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(or was it the reverse?) < 1260268083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION hit caps lock by mistake < 1260268097 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: the claims have been Wolframised < 1260268099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, strange effect for Ctrl-Y < 1260268107 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no < 1260268107 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah. Actually it claims: < 1260268118 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :was trying to write y shift-0 < 1260268126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and hit capslock-y shift-0 because capslock is next to shift < 1260268135 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"Long viewed as an important theoretical idea, functional programming finally became truly convenient and practical with the introduction of Mathematica's symbolic language." < 1260268138 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and as I typed that y with my right hand, the left hand was already going to shift at the time < 1260268140 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is even sillier < 1260268142 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not a-capslock because a is next to capslock? < 1260268142 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :than what I suggested < 1260268144 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ^ < 1260268151 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: I don't think so < 1260268176 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't think Mathematica really 'gets' functional programming < 1260268180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, did you see that about bugs found in rc/funge above? Some stuff mycology didn't test. < 1260268189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've seen an implementation of SKI in Mathematica, but it didn't define it as functions but as rewriting < 1260268197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, See what `Fuco` said in the logs < 1260268223 0 :augur!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260268223 0 :`Fuco`!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260268223 0 :lifthrasiir!i=vAO7W2tp@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260268223 0 :cal153!n=cal@66-162-68-164.static.twtelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260268223 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260268226 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mycouser tests nothing explicitly < 1260268253 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well, does ccbi handle it? < 1260268256 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you want to see whether it handles EOF correctly, redirect /dev/null to the stdin of your interpreter. < 1260268260 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, of course it does. < 1260268262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I checked that cfunge handles what he described correctly < 1260268269 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, even for output? < 1260268280 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, that's quite important too you know < 1260268281 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Probably not, but I'm not sure < 1260268342 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION wonders what outputting to /dev/zero does < 1260268351 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nothing, IIRC < 1260268355 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, just ignores the output < 1260268362 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :same as /dev/null then < 1260268365 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep < 1260268371 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Guest84808 < 1260268378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :reading from /dev/null gives EOF, doesn't it? < 1260268379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, unless /dev/null is optimised for faster ignoring of output? < 1260268384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, iirc yes < 1260268388 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: that makes no sense, surely? < 1260268395 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder how one can optimize ignorance < 1260268411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well it could. It could be done so that the data is not even sent to the kernel at all < 1260268418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would require standard library support < 1260268424 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but theoretically possible < 1260268437 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wouldn't that slow down all output that /wasn't/ ignored? < 1260268444 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well okay. < 1260268448 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but still < 1260268453 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it *could* happen in *theory* < 1260268469 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also not if you use quajets (or whatever the term was) < 1260268495 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :meh can't find that < 1260268501 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: hey, thanks for your comments, I've just came back from school < 1260268538 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yea the problem was on "reflect on failure" on I/O operations, rcfunge was unable to determine EOF < 1260268553 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :In general, RC/Funge is not very high quality. I don't recommend it. < 1260268561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't recommend it either < 1260268572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`, Deewiant wrote ccbi and mycology, I wrote cfunge. < 1260268573 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260268576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :use our software < 1260268582 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've just found out funge this sunday so I've grabbed the first one ;) < 1260268585 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :;) < 1260268627 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ok, I'll check it out < 1260268657 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`Fuco`: Deewiant's a world expert on Funge interpreter correctness testing < 1260268658 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260268665 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I've revised some of my code at the boring lecture, so I'm gonna update it and test on something else ;0 < 1260268676 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ccbi and cfunge are likely the best interps to use, as a result of it < 1260268682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh found it < 1260268685 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, http://lwn.net/Articles/270081/ < 1260268689 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: how's Language::Befunge getting on, by the way? < 1260268694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I bet it could be efficient with THAT < 1260268725 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I would like to point out that efunge is rather good too < 1260268728 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523: I guess it does a good job at validity but is still slow as hell? < 1260268741 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh, that's how everything works in Underload/Unlambda < 1260268748 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: that's my guess too, I just wanted it confirmed < 1260268791 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't been benchmarking lately (or funging at all really) but I doubt it's got enough speed to be usable for complex programs < 1260268797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, that article's just inspired a crazy idea in me < 1260268800 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :JIT /dev/null < 1260268815 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if you try to write to /dev/null, the code calling it gets rewritten to not output at all < 1260268835 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I read the thesis in question, very interesting. < 1260268856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and I bet that was was synthesis would have done < 1260268871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :except it wouldn't have called it that < 1260268939 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523 from the discussion section: < 1260268942 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Objection 1: "How much of the performance improvement is due to my ideas, and how much is due to writing in assembler, and tuning the hell out of the thing?" < 1260268945 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of that thesis < 1260268951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :XD < 1260269058 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Page closed" < 1260269082 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260269281 0 :ais523!n=ais523@147.188.254.115 JOIN :#esoteric < 1260269333 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what was the last you saw? < 1260269377 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Tuesday 08 December 2009] [04:30:51 |pm] | No output. < 1260269378 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[Tuesday 08 December 2009] [04:31:02 |pm] | um, what's HackEgo's qdb syntax again? < 1260269380 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from this connection < 1260269387 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I can't remember what I saw on the other one < 1260269390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, err that I never saw < 1260269396 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh < 1260269400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if you try to write to /dev/null, the code calling it gets rewritten to not output at all < 1260269400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, I read the thesis in question, very interesting. < 1260269400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, and I bet that was was synthesis would have done < 1260269400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : except it wouldn't have called it that < 1260269400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523 from the discussion section: < 1260269401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Objection 1: "How much of the performance improvement is due to my ideas, and how much is due to writing in assembler, and tuning the hell out of the thing?" < 1260269404 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : of that thesis < 1260269406 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw that < 1260269406 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : XD < 1260269409 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, all the way? < 1260269418 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I saw everything up to the quit on the other connection < 1260269424 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as it was a quit by hand, not a lagquit < 1260269427 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah < 1260269518 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, is there something wrong with sending myself a zipped tgz that itself contains other zips and tgzs? < 1260269535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, zipped tgz? < 1260269542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that is pointless < 1260269546 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not really < 1260269550 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what? < 1260269558 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :basically, there was a directory tree full of zipfiles that I needed to send to another computer < 1260269567 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well sure, so tar them up < 1260269569 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so I tarred the directory tree < 1260269572 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or zip them with no compression < 1260269574 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and put z in the tar command because why not < 1260269579 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, not all the files in it were compressed < 1260269587 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well why did you put it in a .zip afterwards? < 1260269595 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :then, because the data was private, I put it in a passworded zip < 1260269598 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh < 1260269602 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to prevent it getting snooped on over the email < 1260269609 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, why not gpg it? < 1260269616 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I'm not that careful with my own stuff normally, but for other people's sensitive data, I'm not sending it over email unencrypted) < 1260269627 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, because zip encryption is easy to break iirc < 1260269642 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :we are talking a lot less time than gpg here unless I misremember < 1260269649 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I picked a very long password so as to make life harder when breaking it < 1260269667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, none of this is meant to stand up to a concerted attack, someone with the resources to do that could just hack the server here, or my login on it < 1260269676 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well iirc it used to use a easy to break encryption algorightm < 1260269681 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :algorithm* < 1260269694 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :though google suggests winzip uses 128-bit AES at least < 1260269702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can't find anything about zip standard < 1260269757 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and 7zip offers either the old easy to break one and 256-bit AES < 1260269797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used the command-line "zip" on Fedora < 1260269802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :# cryptsetup status /dev/mapper/root < 1260269802 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :/dev/mapper//dev/mapper/root is active: < 1260269803 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :um, CentOS < 1260269807 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[correct output listed] < 1260269813 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(grr, I get Red Hat derivatives confused mentally...) < 1260269814 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well a bit funny that path < 1260269822 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no idea what version it is < 1260269847 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, bad luck: < 1260269853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -e Encrypt the contents of the zip archive using a password which is entered on the terminal in response to a prompt (this will not be echoed; < 1260269853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : if standard error is not a tty, zip will exit with an error). The password prompt is repeated to save the user from typing errors. Note < 1260269853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : that this encrypts with standard pkzip encryption which is considered weak. < 1260269876 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, congrats, if anyone wanted to read that they could easily have done < 1260269889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and: why not just scp it < 1260269894 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :would have been way more secure < 1260269897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and easier to do < 1260269902 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: to a computer that wasn't network-connected at the time? < 1260269913 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, fair enough, still gpg is required < 1260269916 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that has port 22 firewalled, and isn't running sshd as it is? < 1260269924 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, it is running sshd < 1260269928 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but it has port 22 firewalled anyway < 1260269945 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :gpg wouldn't really work without a public key to encrypt with < 1260269946 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, because the pkzip style encryption is so easy to break it takes seconds iirc < 1260269956 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, use your own public key duh? < 1260269964 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: I don't know it off by heart < 1260269977 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also for gpg: < 1260269979 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://lwn.net/Articles/270081/ < 1260269979 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, I think it's pretty unlikely anyone was intercepting the email in transit anyway < 1260269980 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260269983 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :copy-fail < 1260269986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : -c, --symmetric encryption only with symmetric cipher < 1260269989 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there we go < 1260270027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, just pointing out your protection wasn't really helpful at all < 1260270161 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :anyway, the fsck bug seems to have fixed itself < 1260270169 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least, my computer fscked itself just fine an hour or so ago < 1260270274 0 :`Fuco`!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :Fuco < 1260270323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260270347 0 :kar8nga!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260270625 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, have you ever run into issues with _FILE_OFFSET_BITS? < 1260270632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I know you are still on 32-bit < 1260270640 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't think so < 1260270711 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ah I guess you seldom use files larger than 2 GB? < 1260270723 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yep, pretty rare < 1260270733 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the only time I'd use a file that big would be a full backup of everything < 1260270743 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and even then, I'm not sure if it would be that large < 1260270746 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I just read about the issues it caused, and I got a feeling that can best be described as nostalgia < 1260270762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I haven't used 32-bit for ages < 1260270851 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hmm, seems that my last nonincremental backup was february 2008, and it's less than 1 GB < 1260270865 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :probably a symptom of me growing up with floppy disks < 1260270996 0 :Gracenotes!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260271037 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yeah I have over 200 GB in my last non-incremental backup < 1260271046 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which was this summer < 1260271076 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1260271083 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you store that much? it wouldn't even fit on a USB stick < 1260271100 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you'd need too many CDs to burn it on to be practical < 1260271125 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, currently on external disk < 1260271128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I used to use tape < 1260271191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh btw that is just the desktop, the laptop adds another 70 GB or so by now < 1260271197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well not it's base < 1260271203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since I bought it this summer < 1260271208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I tend to not back up generated files unless they're small < 1260271212 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/this/the last/ < 1260271228 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well indeed. I don't backup svn checkouts and such < 1260271230 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. I back up the .rg (original) and .mid (small) versions of my music < 1260271236 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not the .ogg versions < 1260271239 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, with that it would easily add another 100 GB < 1260271247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I have no time to sort through that sort of stuff < 1260271277 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, bbiab < 1260271910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :back < 1260271951 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, so which did you choose? cfunge or ccbi? < 1260271986 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :<`Fuco`> I've just found out funge this sunday so I've grabbed the first one ;) <-- a bit hard to believe considering that program. You must have spent the entire time on befunge since then < 1260271999 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :7 hours < 1260272020 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, hah < 1260272033 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's not that hard when you think about how it works < 1260272057 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's basically pushdown automata with a lot of convenient methods (like variables etc) < 1260272059 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there are some non-idiomatic parts in there indeed < 1260272069 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first: befunge98 is not .txt but .b98 < 1260272084 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, it is self modifying < 1260272085 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but then some browsers won't open it ;) < 1260272094 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, I wget-ed it anyway < 1260272099 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260272123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, btw you are aware of the "print gnirts" idiom: >:#,_ right? < 1260272155 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just you never used it as far as I could find with a quick grep < 1260272159 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot style < 1260272160 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :quantumEd: it turns out he did send something, a classical fnord photo is copyrighted by the photographer and so on < 1260272172 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nope as I said I've only found it sunday so ;) < 1260272180 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot, oh btw fungot is written in befunge 98 < 1260272181 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: although i'm not quite sure on how to blend them fnord, they would have < 1260272182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :^source < 1260272183 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98 < 1260272192 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, it runs on cfunge < 1260272223 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, well >:#,_ is a useful idiom to know < 1260272255 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :_,#! #:< in the other direction < 1260272276 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and there are vertical versions of course) < 1260272282 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, is there any version based on x? < 1260272288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it might be possible < 1260272294 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Or >:#,_# of course, although it won't deal correctly with a null string < 1260272308 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, how would that ever exit? < 1260272321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait < 1260272328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from that side < 1260272330 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why's there the : < 1260272339 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, duplicate item on top of stack < 1260272344 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :since the _ consumes it < 1260272348 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260272352 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :>:#,_v# is of course the correct-with-null version < 1260272357 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, so if we decide to print it we still need it around < 1260272363 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :So it will print null terminated string < 1260272368 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, yes < 1260272379 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, which is what a 0"gnirts" is < 1260272384 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :think it is mentioned in the spec < 1260272385 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except I managed to backspace over the : at the end but anyway < 1260272388 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea < 1260272400 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, spec is at http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html < 1260272416 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OH i see, so i dont have to use number k, < 1260272419 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :clever ;) < 1260272443 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, only assuming you can trust there to be no zero bytes in that string < 1260272464 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plus k has it's own host of issues < 1260272474 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :If you tag your strings with the length then 1-k, works < 1260272490 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Except for strings of length 1 < 1260272496 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :heh < 1260272499 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260272504 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure I'd figure that out in some time ;D < 1260272529 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, also I believe ccbi still doesn't handle nested k in a sensible way < 1260272543 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge at least tries to handle it in some sort of not totally confused way < 1260272544 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Your definition of sensible might be different from mine :-P < 1260272553 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, well yes < 1260272558 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And I guess it was, last time we discussed it < 1260272566 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :nested k is by definition not sensible < 1260272573 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw that bot is WTF, it will take some time just to read it < 1260272586 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, heck I don't even remember what exactly cfunge does XD < 1260272597 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, I don't think I ever read the whole thing < 1260272612 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, oh and fizzie in here wrote it < 1260272630 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, there are some docs at the end < 1260272637 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yea < 1260272639 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mostly about how space is used < 1260272647 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, didn't you have an annotated version < 1260272667 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, some page where you displayed info on hover? < 1260272673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or do I completely misremember? < 1260272746 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's crazy that people actually write socket libraries for stuff like this < 1260272762 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Fuco, oh? well there is a fingerprint for it < 1260272763 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :SOCK < 1260272769 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's not much to write, the only socket fingerprint is pretty much a C binding < 1260272772 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :cfunge, ccbi and rcfunge at least implement it < 1260272779 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, yea < 1260272781 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right :D < 1260272784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yeah, it is a bit of C binding < 1260272855 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, "a bit" seems to equal "around 340 lines" < 1260272864 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :according to a LOC tool < 1260272870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(at least for cfunge) < 1260272878 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of course quite a bit of that is metadata < 1260272909 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :276 sock.d < 1260272911 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(wc -l) < 1260272912 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(as in, generated code that loads the fingerprint, lines like: int foo; or such) < 1260272929 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, you have the advantage of not having to care as much about memory management < 1260272935 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thanks to using a higher level language < 1260272953 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, oh and you don't have 10 lines of includes at the top < 1260273005 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You're right: it has three imports, one of which is a workaround for a bug < 1260273773 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, I had one. < 1260273778 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: But it was rather incomplete. < 1260273784 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, lost it? < 1260273801 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm sure it's still somewhere. < 1260273819 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html < 1260273819 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: " echo stop killing me < 1260273832 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fungot: I'm not killing you. < 1260273832 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: but some of their income from copies of gnu software. < 1260273858 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The highlights are in the wrong place in that file, in fact. < 1260273876 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because I had a separate highlight description file, and raw source code file, and apparently those have gotten out of sync. < 1260273900 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think it's because I've added a few lines of initialization in there. < 1260273927 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :And the highlighting stops pretty early on in the file. < 1260273938 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Let's see, the colours had some sort of meaning too. < 1260273966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION notes it looks all like light blue on his laptop screen unless he look at it from an extreme angle < 1260273985 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Green blocks are the big high-level descriptions, red ones are error conditions/messages, blue and yellow... uh, mean something else. As does grey. < 1260274010 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, all grey ones are part of a single block called "Code-flow paths..." < 1260274038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, why is there a vertical row of dots there < 1260274066 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's a sort of highlight that's in the original source file. < 1260274068 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, near the end of the annotated area < 1260274072 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what does it mean? < 1260274077 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The two columns right of it are reserved for code-flow. < 1260274083 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's just a marker that you're not supposed to write past it. < 1260274093 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, shouldn't it go all the way up? < 1260274099 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also why not update it? < 1260274104 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Sure, in theory, but I think I got bored. < 1260274114 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: context? < 1260274122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260274123 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, ^ < 1260274124 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I meant < 1260274128 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, mistab < 1260274131 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :somehow < 1260274134 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah < 1260274136 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's quite a mistab < 1260274143 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The highlights are generated from the http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot-hl.txt file automatically with some javascript. < 1260274143 0 :fungot!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie: so that's a scheme48 bug? :) htmlprag? < 1260274145 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :is your tab-complete set to me by default? < 1260274145 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, a and f are close < 1260274152 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm the first here in alphabetical order, so it's plausible < 1260274162 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing < 1260274166 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(also, not particularly close in QWERTY; do you use a substantially different layout?) < 1260274176 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well no, tab alone just lists the names < 1260274184 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, "same half" < 1260274187 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and same row < 1260274191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and yes qwerty < 1260274191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't close < 1260274200 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, closer than a and o are? < 1260274202 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no? < 1260274251 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, it is closer than a and o are < 1260274254 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but that's still not close < 1260274265 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about a and d? < 1260274289 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :too far to typo, but close enough that it's not that much of a stretch for the finger < 1260274293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :still a bit annoying, though < 1260274303 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :like trying to press ' when your right hand's on hjkl for a vi-style control system < 1260274336 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, to do with the way hands work, g is effectively closer to j than a is to d or l is to ' < 1260274341 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :even though it's the same physical distance < 1260274350 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and 4 is pretty close to d) < 1260274372 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you forgot that I was looking at a different screen when typing < 1260274397 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't tyoe quite correct when doing so, at least if I press enter before piof reading (like here) < 1260274401 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION looks < 1260274410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, I didn't do too bad it seems < 1260274413 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, I only use one screen < 1260274427 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think some people are more productive with multiple screens as it helps stop them getting distracted < 1260274431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing < 1260274432 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm more productive with one screen for the same reason < 1260274434 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you missed that? < 1260274440 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, I didn't < 1260274445 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I even commented against it < 1260274463 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :where? < 1260274471 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about five lines ago < 1260274474 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :of mine < 1260274478 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no that was the second time I mentioned it < 1260274479 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1260274492 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing != ais523, you forgot that I was looking at a different screen when typing < 1260274519 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(ehird logread: I've started using xmonad again for some things; once I found out it supported multiple desktops, it fits my workflow much better, as I can ensure there's exactly two windows on a desktop when I want to tile two) < 1260274527 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and not just multiple screens, in fact they are two computers that are connected using synergy < 1260274539 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact I was reading something on the other one while typing < 1260274545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whoa, multitasking < 1260274574 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you use virtual desktops? < 1260274576 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1260274579 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought no one did < 1260274588 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: yes, I do < 1260274595 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although, only one at the moment < 1260274604 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two is common when I'm working on a programming project (one for it, one for everything else) < 1260274606 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I always get annoyed when I have to switch between them < 1260274619 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in xmonad, I more commonly use 6 or 7 or so because I don't have a taskbar < 1260274628 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for programming I just make sure to use a large enough monitor < 1260274630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so it's a different style of working < 1260274651 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw I have considered getting another monitor < 1260274661 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thus having a dual monitor setup + the laptop < 1260274674 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is switching desktops hard? < 1260274680 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :control-alt-arrow < 1260274686 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's actually easier to press than alt-tab < 1260274701 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I disagree < 1260274714 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and control-shift-alt-arrow moves the current window with you, although that's a bit harder to press than alt-tab) < 1260274714 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alt-tab requires two fingers from one hand < 1260274721 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, first and fourth < 1260274724 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err < 1260274729 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no < 1260274730 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and it's a stretch for the fourth < 1260274734 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, first and second < 1260274738 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: which fingers do you use? < 1260274741 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouch < 1260274743 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fits just perfect < 1260274748 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you avoid spraining your wrist < 1260274759 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Control-alt-arrow requires three fingers, and either from two hands or with a very inconvenient single hand < 1260274765 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, moving your index finger from f to tab is a very long way < 1260274766 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well if I don't want to move sideways I just use first and forth < 1260274789 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I move all over the place for emacs anyway < 1260274793 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: two hands, but I don't have to move them very far < 1260274795 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: so do I < 1260274802 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alt-tab isn't that inconvenient < 1260274822 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, anyway I don't actually use first and second < 1260274828 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :just noticed it fits perfect < 1260274830 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, what do you use? < 1260274839 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :first and third or first and fourth < 1260274840 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Alt-tab doesn't necessarily require any hand movement at all < 1260274841 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :works just fine < 1260274845 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :... < 1260274853 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Arrow keys are inconvenient unless you have a hand there already < 1260274856 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as for far stretch, yes I need to curl up the finger a bit to not overshoot < 1260274857 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant: agreed, but it does require a lot of finger movement < 1260274871 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm on a laptop, so the arrow keys are below return < 1260274871 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, so no not a far stretch, rather I would like it further away < 1260274877 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :rather than to the right and below < 1260274877 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not really, in my opinion < 1260274881 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that probably makes a big difference < 1260274889 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, oh and I'm on a full sized keyboard < 1260274891 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I often press alt-tab using my thumb and pinkie < 1260274896 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, as I said: big hands < 1260274910 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION should take a photo of his hand on his keyboard < 1260274911 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :maybe < 1260274918 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if I can find the camera without too much searching < 1260274925 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Of course, a laptop keyboard makes things easier < 1260274930 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :err, nop < 1260274933 0 :Deewiant!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Quite a bit, in fact < 1260274941 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Deewiant, indeed. just checked on my thinkpad < 1260274966 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but no one uses a laptop keyboard if he/she can avoid it < 1260274977 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I do < 1260274985 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because I use laptops so much, I'm used to this one < 1260274990 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :desktop keyboards tend to be a bit large for me now < 1260275056 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, heh. I find even a full sized keyboard cramped < 1260276027 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, how tall are you? < 1260276038 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :metric units please < 1260276080 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :about 6 feet; 1 foot is 12 inches, 1 metre is 39 inches, so that translates to about 1.85 metres < 1260276088 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's only approximate, though, I haven't measured my height in a while < 1260276097 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm. I'm 1.89 < 1260276103 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so you aren't too short < 1260276114 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yet you said Alt-tab was a far stretch < 1260276118 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on a laptop keyboard even < 1260276125 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :from where my fingers normally are < 1260276129 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :your hands must be fairly small compared to the rest of your body < 1260276135 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it isn't that far in an absolute manner < 1260276142 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in fact, I compress my hand to do the reaching < 1260276148 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well what about the fingers 1 and 5? < 1260276151 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just a lot of movement from the normal locations of my hands < 1260276152 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that should work well < 1260276155 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that would be even more < 1260276159 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my little finger's normally over shift < 1260276167 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is what I actually use when I'm not thinking about it (just noticed) < 1260276185 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the position of my hand is such that I can move it down to control without moving my hand < 1260276188 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but not up to caps lock < 1260276191 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I would hate having my little finger curled up like that < 1260276197 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that isn't curled up < 1260276199 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that's straight < 1260276207 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very short finger? < 1260276212 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which explains why I can't reach tab with it at all without moving my hand < 1260276214 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :no, very low hands < 1260276215 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :how do you reach the top rows easily < 1260276221 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well okay < 1260276222 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :middle finger reaches them fine < 1260276227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :seems irritating still < 1260276234 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :although I have to stretch for escape or the F-keys, I hardly use them < 1260276238 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about typing q? or 1? < 1260276239 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Emacs user, not vi user...) < 1260276247 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, everyone has to stretch for f-keys < 1260276251 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :q is where my fourth finger naturally reaches < 1260276252 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because of the space < 1260276259 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :1 I press by moving my third finger to the left, it's longer < 1260276260 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :between the normal keys < 1260276262 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and f-keys < 1260276265 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: no space on this keyboard between F1 and 1 < 1260276272 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, well okay laptop < 1260276273 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :right < 1260276286 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about reaching esc? On my laptop it is above F1 < 1260276293 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's to the left of F1 here, above ` < 1260276308 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(and ` is a massive stretch with the third finger for me; for ESC I have to move my hand) < 1260276315 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :note that these are my normal typing hand positions < 1260276321 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for, say, playing roguelikes, they'd be different < 1260276331 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, on my desktop F10 is above `, and on my laptop the space between F12 and Delete (+ part of Delete) is above ` < 1260276337 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(the left hand would be higher so it could hit control /and/ escape a lot; the right hand would be over hjkl < 1260276350 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: ` is at the other end of your keyboard, then < 1260276352 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's above tab for me < 1260276390 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, 78990+ "dead key for é" "backspace < 1260276410 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the dead key for e when shifted turns into dead key for è and ` < 1260276418 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"for é" < 1260276421 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :`1234567890-= backspace < 1260276422 0 :HackEgo!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :No output. < 1260276423 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for me < 1260276443 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :to type international characters I use alt-gr plus punctuation < 1260276461 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. alt-gr-; is dead key for acute < 1260276485 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, §1234 < 1260276503 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when shifted: ½!"#¤%&/()=?` < 1260276514 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shifted: ¬!"£$%^&*()_+ < 1260276515 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and shift-backspace < 1260276522 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when altgr: ¶¡@£$€¥{[]}\± < 1260276537 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when alt-gr+shift: ¾¹²³¼¢⅝÷«»°¿¬ < 1260276554 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :|¹²³€½¾{[]}\ (dead key for cedilla) (alt-gr-backspace) < 1260276562 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :altgr-shift does the same as shift for me < 1260276570 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :huh < 1260276588 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also alt-gr backspace is silly < 1260276595 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I excluded that one < 1260276600 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :due to it not being of interest < 1260276613 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :why is it silly? < 1260276621 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :on Windows, it'd be mapped to control-alt-backspace and kill your X server < 1260276626 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, it has no special meaning? < 1260276632 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wait what? < 1260276632 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because Windows maps altgr to control-alt for some utterly unknown reason < 1260276646 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :OTOH, on Windows you normally don't have an X server running < 1260276650 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no it doesn't, because then stuff like @ wouldn't work < 1260276662 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or are you saying that Ctrl-Alt-2 on windows is @? < 1260276664 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :can you do it with control-alt instead? < 1260276669 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/ / / < 1260276683 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :certainly, control-alt-4 is €, control-alt-e is é < 1260276687 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I never tried and I don't have windows handy atm < 1260276692 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I can't be bothered booting the Windows system here to test < 1260276700 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, altgr-4 is $ here < 1260276701 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(that's on a UK keyboard) < 1260276707 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: heh < 1260276709 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for € you want altgr-e < 1260276719 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :altgr-shift-e is ¢ < 1260276721 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :whatever that is < 1260276733 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, altgr-3 is £ < 1260276742 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :shift-3 here < 1260276750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw @, £ and $ are marked on the keyboard < 1260276752 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and ¢ is "cent", which is 1/100 of a dollar < 1260276760 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the lower part of it < 1260276760 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :in the US, and several other countries which have currencies called dollars < 1260276767 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so are {[]} < 1260276771 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :again in the lower part < 1260276776 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh and \ < 1260276785 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, it's the mingle operator in Princeton syntax for INTERCAL < 1260276791 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which if you're not American, is possibly more important < 1260276795 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(but probably not) < 1260276809 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, probably not what? < 1260276823 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :¢ being more important as an INTERCAL operator than as a currency < 1260276874 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ouchm I think I have an electric chair. Static such. gave a small spark when touching a metal part < 1260276886 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/m// < 1260276897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, same importance for me < 1260276914 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: it's not your chair, it's you < 1260276919 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :you became statically charged < 1260276926 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the shock when you touched metal was you discharging all at once < 1260276940 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :normally you become charged due to walking around a lot on certain sorts of carpet < 1260276947 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or in buildings with a certain architecture < 1260276963 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and you don't notice on rainy days because you discharge slowly through humidity in the air < 1260277011 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260277050 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I can reproduce the effect with a bit of metal plus some isolation to hold it in after rolling the chair around on the floor a bit < 1260277063 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the bit of metal was placed on the wooden desk while doing this < 1260277076 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah, it's your chair + the carpet that's doing it, then? < 1260277086 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, no carpet. plastic flooring < 1260277094 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ooh, plastic's known to cause the problem < 1260277099 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well, certain types < 1260277110 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :btw, you should discharge yourself before working on electronics (e.g. the inside of computers) < 1260277110 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, wait no, it is actually linoleum in this room < 1260277121 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I use a static wrist thingy < 1260277122 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :duh < 1260277126 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the amount of electricity that a human can feel when it discharges is a lot more than the amount needed to destroy a computer < 1260277132 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but good, I use a static wrist thingy too < 1260277141 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and I take off any fleece clothing < 1260277147 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is probably even more important < 1260277174 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes or no? < 1260277182 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :could be, yes < 1260277182 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fleece gets static very easily < 1260277187 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fleeces are made of plastic IIRC < 1260277197 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and it keeps you wonderfully warm < 1260277204 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very important here in Sweden < 1260277227 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, what about the linoleum though? < 1260277234 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that shouldn't cause static should it < 1260277258 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's an interaction of two things that causes static < 1260277264 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh btw as far as I can tell the static metal part is isolated by plastic from the wheels, Well the wheels are plastic *shrug*. < 1260277269 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :e.g. rubber soles of shoes and whatever carpets are made of < 1260277291 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :plastic wheels + linoleum floor might be a combination that charges up < 1260277305 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure if there's a general rule to determine which combinations charge, and which don't < 1260277312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, current shoes are made of sheep skin with the woolly(sp?) bit turned inside for warmth < 1260277335 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's not the material of the shoes generally that matters < 1260277338 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but the material of the soles < 1260277346 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :static charging's caused by friction < 1260277352 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and which materials are involved in the frictioning < 1260277359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, hm. unknown type of rubber like plastic I'd say < 1260277376 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fairly stiff since it is the only think that provides stiffness to this chair < 1260277391 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :however I was rolling around by holding on to the wooden table < 1260277414 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and then propelling myself around by < 1260277431 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/table/desk/ < 1260277477 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ehird: you know how you keep asking about garbage collection for windows? I think I've realised how I do it < 1260277489 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I get into the habit of switching windows by alt-tabbing at random, and if I hit one I'm not using, I just close it < 1260277518 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, saving stuff in it? < 1260277525 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, also how many windows do you have? < 1260277531 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :5 at the moment < 1260277535 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I have three to four generally < 1260277538 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: doing whatever's appropriate to close it, which may involve saving first < 1260277542 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well maybe 5 < 1260277545 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :two permanent: < 1260277547 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :atm I have IRC, email, web browser < 1260277549 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :terminal and editor < 1260277549 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :konsole and irc client < 1260277559 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the first three are for general Internet interaction; the last two are my work < 1260277567 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :as in, job < 1260277603 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, terminal is for everything < 1260277626 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I'm saying what the terminal has atm < 1260277630 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it actually has three tabs open < 1260277636 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :one for work, the other two browsing NetHack's source code < 1260277646 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, for email, did I ever mention I only recently switched from pine? < 1260277656 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure < 1260277658 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but I didn't know that < 1260277667 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what are you using now? mail(1)? < 1260277672 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, alpine < 1260277673 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::P < 1260277679 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I use Evolution < 1260277682 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :which is like pine, only more maintained < 1260277690 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :partly to annoy people who don't like Evolution, but mostly because I like the way its UI works < 1260277691 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I used thunderbrid at times. < 1260277695 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Thunderbird annoys me < 1260277702 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, less so than evolution < 1260277706 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it's just slightly too obnoxious < 1260277712 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, evolution yes < 1260277722 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, evolution reminds me of outlook < 1260277725 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :lots of things you can click on by mistake, mail notifications that say the text of the email onscreen so you have to turn them off, et < 1260277727 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*etc < 1260277744 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Evolution does similar things to outlook < 1260277750 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, yes I don't like that < 1260277752 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but at least the UI mostly doesn't get in the way < 1260277773 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Outlook's UI is pretty bad, with lots of top-of-page popups telling you all sorts of things you didn't care about) < 1260277782 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, and evolution fails to sync against anything but palm units < 1260277796 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my mobile phone over bluetooth? Just forget it < 1260277797 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it syncs against IMAP and POP3 just fine < 1260277805 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I don't have a mobile, so I don't care about syncing with those < 1260277808 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, I meant: embedded devices < 1260277811 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for calender and such < 1260277821 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, only landline? < 1260277834 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :my family has a landline, I use that on occasion < 1260277837 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :also, sometimes use payphones < 1260277853 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, you live at home? I somehow thought you didn't < 1260277863 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what with not having internet < 1260277870 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :s/at home/at parents/ < 1260277888 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes, I live with my parents; that house doesn't have Internet < 1260277889 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I don't want it there < 1260277897 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, huh? < 1260277901 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and they don't want it? < 1260278137 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, btw is Wolfram american? < 1260278153 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I think he's technically British but has lived in the US most of his life < 1260278157 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Wikipedia probably has more details < 1260278169 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ais523, mathematica used "color" somewhere I'm sure < 1260278182 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh, even I often write in US English when programming < 1260278186 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and I'm Britihs < 1260278189 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*British < 1260278191 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :everyone else uses it < 1260278201 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :so writing "colour" probably wouldn't be compatible with libraries < 1260278208 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and would annoy Americans using my programs < 1260278318 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ERROR: ld.so: object '/usr/lib/libalut.so' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored. < 1260278319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hm < 1260278321 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :strange < 1260278323 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I wonder why < 1260278354 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh found it < 1260278359 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :32 vs. 64 < 1260278611 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260278730 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"going study. exam in 2hrs" < 1260279162 0 :clog!unknown@unknown.invalid JOIN :#esoteric < 1260279162 0 :clog!n=nef@bespin.org JOIN :#esoteric < 1260279464 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :[23:27:21] eek < 1260279469 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :For the logs, of course < 1260279475 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ah. < 1260279476 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Because it's such an important expression < 1260279512 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :very cyclic reference, that < 1260279516 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * clog has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) < 1260279516 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : eek < 1260279516 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : * clog (n=nef@bespin.org) has joined #esoteric < 1260279521 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it doesn't make sense without context < 1260279569 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well nothing does, really < 1260279673 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :This does. < 1260279698 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Ha, it is a lie.) < 1260279733 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it cannot be a lie, it isn't a cake < 1260279772 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes, I guess it does follow that if all cakes are a lie, then all lies are a cake. < 1260279777 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(That might also be a lie.) < 1260279797 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION eats fizzie's lie. tastes of cinnamon. < 1260279822 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Hey, incidentally, we had a fancy cake: http://zem.fi/g2/d/8450-2/p1040206.jpg < 1260279872 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(Me and my wife both graduated this autumn -- I'm sure I've mentioned at least the case of myself -- and we felt somehow obligated to arrange something quasi-fancy mostly for the relatives.) < 1260279885 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260279885 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260279885 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260279886 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260279886 0 :Guest84808!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260279916 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :are those flowers and stuff marsipan? < 1260279926 0 :Guest84808!n=augur@129-2-175-79.wireless.umd.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260279926 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260279926 0 :lifthrasiir!i=vAO7W2tp@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260279926 0 :cal153!n=cal@66-162-68-164.static.twtelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260279926 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260279936 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Not exactly, but they are some sort of mostly sugar-based edible building material. < 1260279955 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*z < 1260279972 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, technically edible. There were also few bits of metal wire in the longer sections of leaves to provide some structural integrity, so you had to be a bit careful there. < 1260280007 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :wait, you're _married_? is that legal in this channel? < 1260280040 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Oh, I'm sure there must be some other instances of that class here too. I mean, statistically speaking. In a group of this many people. < 1260280051 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :*geeks < 1260280090 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Besides, does it still count if my wife is a programmer (well, "software engineer") by vocation? < 1260280105 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that geeks don't marry, i know a couple who met through the local roleplaying club. still go alternate weeks while the other babysits, afaik < 1260280185 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Due to some ancient HR/payroll software system field width restrictions, her salary receipts say "SOFTWARE ENGINE"; I think that's hilarious. < 1260280197 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::D < 1260280343 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :well if you speak of human resources, software engines seem but a small step < 1260281101 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, iwc < 1260281120 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :read it hours ago < 1260281196 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric : Hey, incidentally, we had a fancy cake: http://zem.fi/g2/d/8450-2/p1040206.jpg <-- does the shape have any meaning < 1260281203 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, remind me which theme it was? < 1260281208 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hours ago too < 1260281211 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :mythbusters/martians < 1260281228 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :with a hint of steve&terry < 1260281275 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION found the punchline to d&d pretty funny < 1260281288 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah it was < 1260281296 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Not really, no. We did think a bit of using the traditional headgear of the university students (there's a very specific type of hat) as the cake motif, but decided it would be too tacky. < 1260281312 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, same hat as in Sweden? < 1260281319 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oh wait, that isn't for university < 1260281324 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :or rather < 1260281328 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is for starting at university iirc < 1260281358 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :downloading 500 mb at 300 K/s is painfully slow < 1260281367 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least if you want to get it done quickly < 1260281368 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :AnMaster: Yes, well, I don't know about your hats; here the "university of technology" students get the hat at the end of their first study year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TFteknolog.jpg < 1260281392 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"In Finland and Sweden students of technology wear a special kind of cap. It is similar to the cap given to all high-school graduates in both countries, but features a tuft and different kind of cockade showing what university the bearer is attending. " < 1260281411 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, your hat looks like you our plus a lot of extra stuff < 1260281415 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yeah < 1260281417 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :exactly < 1260281425 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, huh I had no clue about this < 1260281435 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :useful to know I guess < 1260281454 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :There's no specific graduation hat from university here. And putting a Ph.D. doctoral hat there might have been a bit premature. :p < 1260281471 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, well I know about that, and it happens later yes < 1260281477 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what do professors get I wonder < 1260281495 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :A pink tiara. (Okay, not really, but they should.) < 1260281500 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, XD < 1260281540 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Here's one of our professors: the man with the crown: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-olli-makinen/content/DSC_5926_large.html < 1260281558 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, that is not standard clothes I think < 1260281561 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what the hell was that < 1260281564 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It's from the combined CS-and-related-departments christmas party, so, no. < 1260281578 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, lots of alcohol? < 1260281584 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Yes. < 1260281590 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and who is that figure on the t-shirt? < 1260281593 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :That performance was the traditional: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Boys%27_Singing_Procession < 1260281600 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :a maoist king < 1260281641 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan, yeah I was suspecting something like that but I just couldn't believe my eyes < 1260281655 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"The Finnish version contains non-biblical elements such as king Herod vanquishing the "king of the Moors", and a short song of praise to tsar Alexander." The black man is the king of the Moors, I think. < 1260281656 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, what's up with the guy next to him < 1260281700 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :At least I remember Herod (our professor) vanquishing him. Note the toy light saber; it had lights when activated, and made the proper noise. < 1260281734 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It was indeed a rather drink-rich party, or so I hear: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-olli-makinen/content/DSC_5978_large.html < 1260281759 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I slipped out after the dinner part, we had to prepare for that cake-party of ours, which was the very next day.) < 1260281814 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :You may also take a look at a short summary from the lecture slides given at the beginning of the occasion: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-jukka-patynen/content/20091127_1MG_1637_large.html < 1260281815 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, how many people < 1260281817 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :for those boxes < 1260281833 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Rather many, I think. Over one hundred, probably less than three. < 1260281860 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :what is the copy machine thing about? < 1260281882 0 :AnMaster!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :fizzie, wait so you say in the interval (100,3)? < 1260281883 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :The traditional office christmas party "meme" is to take copies of your... uh, nether regions, with the office copy machine. < 1260281895 0 :fizzie!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(100, 300). I abbreviated a bit. < 1260282401 0 :Guest84808!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260282606 0 :MigoMipo!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net" < 1260282692 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260283060 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260283095 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260283275 0 :cal153!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260283313 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260283313 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260283314 0 :lifthrasiir!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :farmer.freenode.net irc.freenode.net < 1260283314 0 :cal153!n=cal@66-162-68-164.static.twtelecom.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260283530 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260283530 0 :lifthrasiir!i=vAO7W2tp@haje12.kaist.ac.kr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260283530 0 :pikhq!n=pikhq@r02jjw8v9.device.mst.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260284489 0 :BeholdMyGlory!n=behold@d83-183-183-70.cust.tele2.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260284760 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260285066 0 :oklofok!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260285094 0 :oklofok!n=oklopol@a91-153-117-63.elisa-laajakaista.fi JOIN :#esoteric < 1260285277 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260285455 0 :BeholdMyGlory!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer) < 1260286757 0 :oerjan!n=oerjan@hagbart.nvg.ntnu.no JOIN :#esoteric < 1260286935 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260287750 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242436099.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260287876 0 :quantumEd!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"* I'm too lame to read BitchX.doc *" < 1260288201 0 :Asztal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260288348 0 :ais523!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Remote closed the connection < 1260288777 0 :sebbu!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260288811 0 :sebbu!n=sebbu@ADijon-152-1-65-196.w83-194.abo.wanadoo.fr JOIN :#esoteric < 1260290966 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-33-240-147.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260291528 0 :Azstal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260291569 0 :Aszstal!n=asztal@host86-158-81-44.range86-158.btcentralplus.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260291854 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-15.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260291860 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260291903 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260291921 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Nick collision from services. < 1260291921 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-15.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260291927 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260292570 0 :Asztal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260292589 0 :Azstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Connection timed out < 1260292818 0 :`Fuco`OFF!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260293088 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260293888 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260293900 0 :Fuco!n=a@fuco.sks3.muni.cz JOIN :#esoteric < 1260294260 0 :Aszstal!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"." < 1260294338 0 :`Fuco`OFF!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260295105 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260295412 0 :dbc!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Client Quit < 1260295626 0 :dbc!n=daniel@130-94-161-238-dsl.hevanet.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260295786 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-33-240-147.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260296802 0 :madbr!n=madbrain@modemcable175.136-81-70.mc.videotron.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260296856 0 :Fuco!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 113 (No route to host) < 1260296990 0 :Pthing!n=pthing@cpc11-pres4-0-0-cust168.pres.cable.virginmedia.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260297335 0 :mu!n=mu@wsip-68-15-175-22.no.no.cox.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260297341 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260298103 0 :augur_!n=augur@208-59-119-22.c3-0.161-ubr1.lnh-161.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260298258 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260300234 0 :pikhq!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://appfrica.net/blog/2009/12/08/evidence-of-language-discovered-in-monkeys/#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=evidence-of-language-discovered-in-monkeys Would a linguist please stand up and comment, kthx? < 1260300798 0 :Gregor!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ook. Ook ook. < 1260300887 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :haha < 1260300947 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :alas, it seems not to be turing complete < 1260301104 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"This computer has gone to sleep" < 1260301286 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Ook! < 1260301354 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: looking. < 1260301374 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(I have a friend who's a linguistics grad student; I know this stuff!) < 1260301431 0 :poiuy_qwert!n=poiuy_qw@bas2-toronto47-1242436099.dsl.bell.ca JOIN :#esoteric < 1260301455 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I'm not sure he's right about what "recursion" means. I would expect him to, seeing that he's a software engineer. < 1260301702 0 :mycroftiv!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"leaving" < 1260302045 0 :mycroftiv!n=infernus@h69-128-47-243.mdsnwi.dedicated.static.tds.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260302302 0 :augur_!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260302482 0 :OxE6!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT : < 1260302910 0 :oerjan!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Good night" < 1260303971 0 :augur!n=augur@c-68-33-240-147.hsd1.dc.comcast.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260306136 0 :poiuy_qwert!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving" < 1260306256 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260306744 0 :mu!n=mu@wireless-lsusecure-9.net.lsu.edu JOIN :#esoteric < 1260306750 0 :mu!unknown@unknown.invalid NICK :OxE6 < 1260308107 0 :augur!n=augur@216-164-33-76.c3-0.slvr-ubr2.lnh-slvr.md.cable.rcn.com JOIN :#esoteric < 1260311223 0 :coppro!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :Read error: 110 (Connection timed out) < 1260312304 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :pikhq: monkeys do not have language. < 1260312332 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the person writing the article doesnt even know what hes talking about < 1260312410 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :oerjan: monkey "languge"? because not even human language is turing complete. < 1260312411 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :not that you're here, or anything, but. < 1260313204 0 :madbr!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Radiateur" < 1260313483 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :It seems obvious that monkeys communicate. This report indicates that this one monkey language seems to have a suffix. < 1260313499 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :communication is not language, however. < 1260313508 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :What is language? < 1260313520 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :at least not in the sense that human language is language. < 1260313531 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :if we construe the meaning of language broadly enough, then almost anything is language < 1260313536 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it reduces to communication < 1260313544 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :hell, it might even reduce to semiotics < 1260313552 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION shrugs. < 1260313566 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but language, that is, the kind humans use, is a very different sort of beast < 1260313614 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :firstly it employs a wealth of combinatorics to produce expressions < 1260313637 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :second, it has a rather extensive, (mostly) arbitrary symbolic representational system < 1260313649 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1260313671 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :These monkeys don't have that at all; they have about five morphemes. < 1260313684 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they dont even have morphemes, right < 1260313704 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :because morphemes are particular units that encode meaning bundles of some sort < 1260313711 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :monkeys dont even have that < 1260313742 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they have calls that induce other behavior in other monkeys, but they're not encoding symbolic meaning < 1260313780 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :when a monkey gives off a "snake" call or an "eagle" call, its a trigger that induces other monkeys to look for the snake or eagle and then recapitulate the call or ignore it < 1260313791 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :and the recapitulation induces avoidance behavior in the troop < 1260313809 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :the call does not induce monkeys to sit around pondering the nature of snakes, etc. < 1260313866 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it probably COULDNT even do that; it not meaningful, its purely instinctual. < 1260313890 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION nods. < 1260313895 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its unlikely that monkeys have anything remotely like a thought "oh there's an eagle" when they hear the call < 1260313901 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they just go into a reactive mode of being < 1260313931 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders whether his goal of teaching language to animals is doomed. < 1260313936 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :it is. < 1260313937 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :(It totally is, ain't it.) < 1260313941 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :yes < 1260313941 0 :Pthing!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :sorry < 1260313952 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :animals, not even CHIMPS, have a chance of learning language. < 1260313956 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :ACTION ponders teaching language to the Piraha instead. < 1260313957 0 :coppro!n=coppro@unaffiliated/coppro JOIN :#esoteric < 1260313963 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :they already have language < 1260313971 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :dan everett is just an idiot. < 1260314189 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :theres a paper i can send you a copy of < 1260314200 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :that talks about the supposed exceptionality of piraha < 1260314209 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :its really not that exceptional. < 1260314225 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :thats actually the name of it, too, right < 1260314227 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :"piraha exceptionality" < 1260314239 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :http://faculty.virginia.edu/linganth/Docs/Everett-Nevins-etal.Piraha-Exceptionality.pdf < 1260314241 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :there you go < 1260314291 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :Well, of course they have language. < 1260314302 0 :uorygl!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :I was being... offensive or something. < 1260314319 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric ::p < 1260314413 0 :augur!unknown@unknown.invalid PRIVMSG #esoteric :but yeah < 1260315591 0 :FireFly!n=firefly@1-1-3-36a.tul.sth.bostream.se JOIN :#esoteric < 1260316117 0 :kar8nga!n=kar8nga@jol13-1-82-66-176-74.fbx.proxad.net JOIN :#esoteric < 1260316411 0 :FireFly!unknown@unknown.invalid QUIT :"Leaving"