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04:09:56 <`Fuco`> Hello guys, I think you might find this interesting: http://fi.muni.cz/~xgoljer/bf.txt :)
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06:58:18 <quantumEd> Busy beaver is a computer science problem to finding the smallest Turing Machine that outputs the most data and eventually halts. This project is an implementation of a Turing Machine in Python and C++ that runs the busy beavers. It also comes with Turing Machine’s tape visualization tool written in Perl.
06:58:51 <quantumEd> what are the first few Busy beavers for brainfuck?
06:59:07 <quantumEd> or similar ? if someone has done a search
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07:02:22 <fizzie> . is the one for length 1. Happy to help.
07:02:58 <fizzie> Most likely a zero byte.
07:06:44 <quantumEd> what's the best way to try and find busy beavers?
07:07:30 <Ilari> And what's the smallest brainfuck program that halts and outputs more bytes than the program code has?
07:08:07 <quantumEd> Ilari I guess if I found the first few busy beavers I would answer that ?
07:09:24 <fizzie> I have a nagging feeling that the subject of a busy-beaver-like function for brainfuck was talked about here once, but I can't really seem to find any references to it.
07:10:28 <quantumEd> wwhat's another language than brainfuck which automatic termination analysis is easier?
07:11:09 <fizzie> If you assume a brainfuck implementation where the cell values are bounded and wrap around, my guess for Ilari's program would be "+[.+]" -- that doesn't look like it could be simplified very much.
07:11:35 <quantumEd> oh right it is ok for Ilaris question not to terminate
07:11:57 <fizzie> No, he said "that halts"; but that one does halt if the cell values wrap-around.
07:12:28 <fizzie> Of course for a question that smells so theoretical, you might opt for some sort of idealized infinite-tape infinite-cell-size brainfuck.
07:13:02 <Ilari> Hmm... And with unbounded cells it should be more interesting. Of course one has to define what "output byte" means in that case. '.' invocation?
07:13:42 <fizzie> Yes, I think you should count the number of . operations there.
07:14:30 <fizzie> And specify deterministicalistically what , will do, or disallow it completely.
07:14:59 <Ilari> At least shortest program that loads cell under pointer by at least 5 greater than its length could be used to construct program that prints more than its length.
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07:18:01 <fizzie> Well, +++[...-] will output 9 values -- the same as the program length -- and you can add one + or ., so that's an upper bound for the size of the smallest Ilari-program.
07:18:09 <fizzie> (See, I made up a name for it.)
07:19:40 <Ilari> +++[....-] is first of those two in ASCII order.
07:21:32 <Ilari> And the busy-beaver like function for BF is of course how many times program of n bytes can invoke . and still halt. Obiviously, its strictly increasing function.
07:21:36 <fizzie> - comes before . so +++[-....] would be before that.
07:22:08 <quantumEd> maybe you can equate [-....] and [....-]
07:23:07 <Ilari> (and those programs can't contain ',')
07:25:46 <quantumEd> is this a good strategy: enum and run every brainfuck program of the set length -- with a timeout
07:26:01 <quantumEd> the ones that timed out you keep them in a list to inspect by hand (bcaesue they might not terminate)
07:26:39 <quantumEd> what's the first brainfuck program that generates some output that is just too huge to deal with?
07:26:59 <quantumEd> I guess nobody has found it yet....
07:32:59 <oklofok> i just know people have tried this for tm's, http://www.answers.com/busy%20beaver#current_6-state.2C_2-symbol_best_contender
07:35:29 <quantumEd> well finding the minimum vavlue for it is hard but its still silly
07:41:58 <oklofok> seems a bit silly i suppose. i wonder what their methods are
07:44:31 <oklofok> oh lower bound functions, for some reason you just meant lower bounds for specific values
07:44:55 <quantumEd> but any computable function is a lower bound
07:47:02 <Ilari> I think that 100 byte BF program, lower bound for number of times it can invoke . and still halt is 11 757 312. For 1 000 byte program, same costructs give 382 748 214 098 589 572 136 663 385 960 069 669 070 838 715 433 037 453 066 072 476 832...
07:47:42 <Ilari> Pick a construction and calculate from that.
07:50:24 <ais523> Ilari: ah, you've been calculating busy beaver for BF?
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07:55:30 <fizzie> Ilari: And what was the construction for those numbers?
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07:59:16 <MizardX> Some structure the multiplies the number of . by 6 for each level... and +7 somewhere.
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08:04:23 <Ilari> Okay, looks like one can do much better. 100 byte program giving 2^2^2097152 .'s
08:09:50 <Ilari> Oops. It doesn't quite work out. Attempting to fix it yields only 2^2^262144...
08:11:05 <ais523> what's the maximum Turing Machine complexity for which the busy beaver number is known exactly?
08:11:27 <ais523> in theory, if we keep brute-forcing up through the complexities
08:11:37 <ais523> we'll eventually find out what the simplest mathematical question we don't know the answer to is
08:13:30 <oklofok> ais523: it's in my link, was it size 4
08:13:49 <Ilari> Hmm... anybody want to figure out wheither this halts and if it does, how many times it outputs stuff: ++++++[>++++++<-]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>>+<[-[>>+<<-]>[>>++<<-]>]>[.-]
08:14:03 <oklofok> for one tape symbol, and 4 states that is
08:14:22 <ais523> oklofok: that's just a copy of the Wikipedia article in a worse interface...
08:14:49 <oklofok> yes, i'm not sure why that's relevant
08:15:08 <oklofok> i would use wikipedia, but i also check words, and answers has a simpler url.
08:15:53 <Ilari> Unless it got screwed up somehow: 2^2^68719476736...
08:16:31 <ais523> oklofok: does your web browser not have a search box in the top-right corner that can be set to Wikipedia?
08:17:22 <oklofok> ais523: yes, it's set to google atm.
08:17:38 <ais523> I change the setting according to what I'm looking for
08:17:41 <ais523> mine even has an Esolang setting
08:18:05 <ais523> (although, for some reason, to look up words I use Wikipedia but with a wikt: prefix)
08:19:36 <oklofok> Ilari: do you like big things? regexes and now bb...
08:20:58 <Ilari> There has to be even more powerful ways to pump up the numbers than exponential pumping. Perhaps not in 100-byte programs but for larger ones...
08:21:27 <quantumEd> there's is always a more complicated way
08:21:48 <oklofok> Ilari: i'm fairly sure there are better ways in <100 programs...
08:22:24 <oklofok> i mean it's not *that much* less powerful than tm's
08:23:48 <ais523> it's fairly obvious how to compile BF to a TM
08:24:04 <ais523> it's pretty much just a TM with a few extra restrictions
08:24:22 <oklofok> we're interested in the other way
08:29:05 <fizzie> fungot: You have a brainfuck interpreter, what do you think about that program Ilari asked about?
08:29:06 <fungot> fizzie: i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute ( base 8 fnord should a thread be given a lot of
08:29:20 <ais523> because not all possible TMs are the direct translation of some BF program
08:29:41 <ais523> ah, that fungot comment would have been so perfect if it stopped before the paren
08:29:42 <fungot> ais523: http://sourceforge.net/ donate/ fnord to http://en.wikibooks.org/ wiki/ 2006_esolang_contestcommittee.
08:31:02 <ais523> beh, http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/2006_esolang_contest_committee is blank
08:31:15 <ais523> no entries in the deletion log, either
08:31:51 <fizzie> I should count the likelihood of fungot mentioning brainfuck to see how much of a coincidence that was; as far as I know, it still doesn't use the "input" sentence at all when constructing the reply.
08:31:51 <fungot> fizzie: i'll bet this would be good for anything but a k-like combinator ( fnord) fnord
08:32:03 <oklofok> wait what that was accidental??
08:32:09 <oklofok> i though fizzie wrote that answer :D
08:32:28 <oklofok> "i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute" <<< this is a perfect answer :|
08:32:43 <oklofok> technically not true, but clearly a strong AI
08:32:59 <ais523> `qdb <fungot> fizzie: i find this topic fascinating each time i run it i get an infinite number of brainfuck instructions to execute
08:33:00 <fungot> ais523: hey man that's python or something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
08:33:11 <ais523> um, what's HackEgo's qdb syntax again?
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08:52:04 <AnMaster> `Fuco`, hm about that link you posted before
08:52:34 <AnMaster> (compare with nick list maybe?)
08:53:26 <AnMaster> `Fuco`, anyway, you say in the comment at the start that rcfunge is broken? Yet iirc it passes those parts in mycology. So care to say how exactly those instructions are broken
08:54:02 <AnMaster> `Fuco`, this interests me greatly since I'm the developer of one of the other befunge-98 interpreters (cfunge).
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08:54:25 <AnMaster> I suspect Deewiant will be interested too, since he wrote the befunge-98 testsuite mycology
08:55:06 <fizzie> You said that wrong; it is "this is relevant to my interests", not "this interests me".
08:56:00 <AnMaster> oh it seems to be "reflect on EOF/error"
08:56:01 <fizzie> Yes; I'm referring to http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Relevant of course. (Unless you were one of the people avoiding links to that site.)
08:56:16 <AnMaster> heck, it even does it for stdout
08:56:44 <fizzie> It's not really "of course", but whatever.
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08:58:19 <AnMaster> `Fuco`, considering http://fi.muni.cz/~xgoljer/rcfunge-fix.txt I'm confident cfunge will work for you
08:59:17 <AnMaster> `Fuco`, be aware of that cfunge requires a *nix system. It won't work on Windows except under cygwin, and even under cygwin it requires quite a bit of work to make it work
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09:03:16 <AnMaster> Gregor, where is egobot?........................................................
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09:05:35 <AnMaster> `Fuco`, just tested it, it works under cfunge
09:05:46 <AnMaster> a bit irritating there is no newline after End
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09:50:40 <AnMaster> ais523, you said mathematica was slow, but fast at some specific things iirc?
09:52:23 <AnMaster> ais523, managing NextPrime[800!] in less than a minute doesn't seem too slow to me for example
09:52:46 <ais523> AnMaster: slow on stuff that isn't a simple combination of primitives
09:52:54 <ais523> NextPrime[800!] is a simple combination of primitives
09:53:13 <ais523> so any time you have to write a loop by hand, for instance (even using map or fold)
09:53:21 <ais523> (or whatever they're called in Mathematica)
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10:00:23 <fizzie> Map is called Map -- "Map[f, expr] or f/@expr applies f to each element on the first level in expr" -- and fold is called Fold -- "Fold[f, x, list] gives the last element of FoldList[f, x, list]. FoldList[f, x, {a, b, ...}] gives {x, f[x, a], f[f[x, a], b], ...}."
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10:06:50 <AnMaster> huh I can't get parallel stuff in mathematica to work
10:06:55 <AnMaster> it seems to block the main thread
10:07:13 <AnMaster> so I can't evaluate something in one thread then evaluate other stuff elsewhere
10:14:06 <AnMaster> ais523, how much of mathematica is written in mathematica?
10:14:20 <AnMaster> considering what you said about speed I guess "almost none"?
10:14:38 <ais523> it's either wrappers or written in C, I think (although I don't know for certain as I haven't seen the code)
10:15:04 <AnMaster> yet the docs claim that mathematica is so fast and great and everything
10:15:47 <Deewiant> http://reference.wolfram.com/mathematica/tutorial/TheSoftwareEngineeringOfMathematica.html
10:17:46 <ais523> basically, they claim it's fast because things like NextPrime have been so carefully optimised by hand
10:17:54 <ais523> and written in a non-Mathematica language
10:18:08 <ais523> they didn't really realise that if it were truly fast, they wouldn't /have/ to do that
10:19:46 <AnMaster> ais523, so they are saying that C is fast basically
10:20:04 <ais523> well, they're saying their algos are fast too
10:20:07 <ais523> which is interesting, and important
10:20:16 <ais523> this is why Mathematica is so fast for doing combinations of primitive
10:20:22 <ais523> because the primitives are implemented very well
10:20:43 <ais523> but it basically has similar speed properties to Thutu once you try to do something more complicated
10:20:49 <ais523> because it's much the same language, just with a worse syntax
10:21:05 <AnMaster> ais523, well, in theory you could optimise better by taking advantage of exactly how the primitive is used
10:21:17 <ais523> yes but AFAICT it doesn't
10:21:51 <AnMaster> like if the domain isn't all integers, but only all odd integers, you can skip checking in prime checks if a number is a multiple of 2
10:22:13 <AnMaster> but I suspect there are cases which saves a whole lot in theory
10:22:32 * ais523 vaguely wonders how to ask Mathematica for a list of all even primes
10:22:37 <AnMaster> ais523, Thutu is really slow isn't it?
10:22:42 <ais523> without optimising by hand and just writing [2]
10:22:53 <ais523> AnMaster: yes, because it has to keep rescanning the string to find out what to do
10:23:00 <ais523> it's O(n) slower than other langs, typically
10:23:12 <ais523> imagine a processor that kept losing the IP and having to scan the entire program to find where it was, it's like that
10:23:17 <AnMaster> ais523, heh. Why not ask it to find an instance that disproves the Riemann conjecture?
10:23:35 <AnMaster> ais523, you mean it doesn't use any AST?
10:23:36 <ais523> AnMaster: because the first should be relatively easily expressible in a programming language, but I'm not sure it is
10:23:46 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I invented a feather-like language
10:23:47 <ais523> AnMaster: no, I don't mean that
10:23:58 <ais523> but it operates on pattern matching behind the scenes
10:24:12 <lament> a feather-like tarpit?
10:24:37 <ais523> AnMaster: go on, although I doubt feather-like is very easy to achieve at all without being utterly different
10:24:53 <AnMaster> ais523, think a mathematica notebook, but every change of a definition of a function or variable below will update all prior usages of it. Of course this becomes interesting if you use it in a condition such that you only redefine it if it has it's original definition
10:25:15 <AnMaster> in which case it would never have been redefined
10:25:15 <ais523> Mathematica actually /has/ that, to some extent
10:25:22 <ais523> you put Interactive[] around the definition, or something like that
10:25:30 <ais523> but then you have to edit actual uses of the number
10:25:39 <ais523> I don't think you can edit processed results to get a goal-seek
10:25:48 * ais523 was forgetting Mathematica syntax...
10:26:19 <AnMaster> (here I don't know mathematica syntax:)
10:26:33 <ais523> probably x:=2, but I'm not sure either
10:26:38 <ais523> and that would be if[x==2,x=4]
10:26:40 <AnMaster> very similar to the grand father paradox
10:26:54 <ais523> um, it is =, not :=, I think now
10:26:57 <ais523> although I'm vaguely confused
10:27:03 <ais523> you're not really meant to use variables in Mathematica
10:27:44 <ais523> much the same way as you're not really meant to use loops in J
10:27:52 <AnMaster> ais523, it claims to be state of the art at procedural programming. As well as offering unique enhanced advantages for functional programming.
10:27:54 <ais523> although presumably they're expressable somehow (maybe a convoluted waY)
10:28:03 * ais523 hit caps lock by mistake
10:28:17 <ais523> AnMaster: the claims have been Wolframised
10:28:19 <AnMaster> ais523, strange effect for Ctrl-Y
10:28:27 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah. Actually it claims:
10:28:38 <ais523> was trying to write y shift-0
10:28:46 <ais523> and hit capslock-y shift-0 because capslock is next to shift
10:28:55 <AnMaster> "Long viewed as an important theoretical idea, functional programming finally became truly convenient and practical with the introduction of Mathematica's symbolic language."
10:28:58 <ais523> and as I typed that y with my right hand, the left hand was already going to shift at the time
10:29:02 <Deewiant> Not a-capslock because a is next to capslock?
10:29:11 <ais523> Deewiant: I don't think so
10:29:36 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't think Mathematica really 'gets' functional programming
10:29:40 <AnMaster> Deewiant, did you see that about bugs found in rc/funge above? Some stuff mycology didn't test.
10:29:49 <ais523> I've seen an implementation of SKI in Mathematica, but it didn't define it as functions but as rewriting
10:29:57 <AnMaster> Deewiant, See what `Fuco` said in the logs
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10:30:26 <Deewiant> mycouser tests nothing explicitly
10:30:53 <AnMaster> Deewiant, well, does ccbi handle it?
10:30:56 <Deewiant> If you want to see whether it handles EOF correctly, redirect /dev/null to the stdin of your interpreter.
10:31:02 <AnMaster> I checked that cfunge handles what he described correctly
10:31:20 <AnMaster> Deewiant, that's quite important too you know
10:31:21 <Deewiant> Probably not, but I'm not sure
10:32:22 * AnMaster wonders what outputting to /dev/zero does
10:32:35 <ais523> well, just ignores the output
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10:32:58 <ais523> reading from /dev/null gives EOF, doesn't it?
10:32:59 <AnMaster> ais523, unless /dev/null is optimised for faster ignoring of output?
10:33:08 <ais523> AnMaster: that makes no sense, surely?
10:33:15 <Deewiant> I wonder how one can optimize ignorance
10:33:31 <AnMaster> ais523, well it could. It could be done so that the data is not even sent to the kernel at all
10:33:38 <AnMaster> would require standard library support
10:33:57 <ais523> wouldn't that slow down all output that /wasn't/ ignored?
10:34:29 <AnMaster> ais523, also not if you use quajets (or whatever the term was)
10:35:01 <`Fuco`> AnMaster: hey, thanks for your comments, I've just came back from school
10:35:38 <`Fuco`> Yea the problem was on "reflect on failure" on I/O operations, rcfunge was unable to determine EOF
10:35:53 <Deewiant> In general, RC/Funge is not very high quality. I don't recommend it.
10:36:12 <AnMaster> `Fuco`, Deewiant wrote ccbi and mycology, I wrote cfunge.
10:36:22 <`Fuco`> I've just found out funge this sunday so I've grabbed the first one ;)
10:37:37 <ais523> `Fuco`: Deewiant's a world expert on Funge interpreter correctness testing
10:37:45 <`Fuco`> I've revised some of my code at the boring lecture, so I'm gonna update it and test on something else ;0
10:37:56 <ais523> ccbi and cfunge are likely the best interps to use, as a result of it
10:38:05 <AnMaster> ais523, http://lwn.net/Articles/270081/
10:38:09 <ais523> Deewiant: how's Language::Befunge getting on, by the way?
10:38:14 <AnMaster> ais523, I bet it could be efficient with THAT
10:38:45 <AnMaster> ais523, I would like to point out that efunge is rather good too
10:38:48 <Deewiant> ais523: I guess it does a good job at validity but is still slow as hell?
10:39:01 <ais523> AnMaster: heh, that's how everything works in Underload/Unlambda
10:39:08 <ais523> Deewiant: that's my guess too, I just wanted it confirmed
10:39:51 <Deewiant> I haven't been benchmarking lately (or funging at all really) but I doubt it's got enough speed to be usable for complex programs
10:39:57 <ais523> anyway, that article's just inspired a crazy idea in me
10:40:15 <ais523> if you try to write to /dev/null, the code calling it gets rewritten to not output at all
10:40:35 <AnMaster> ais523, I read the thesis in question, very interesting.
10:40:56 <AnMaster> ais523, and I bet that was was synthesis would have done
10:41:11 <AnMaster> except it wouldn't have called it that
10:42:19 <AnMaster> ais523 from the discussion section:
10:42:22 <AnMaster> Objection 1: "How much of the performance improvement is due to my ideas, and how much is due to writing in assembler, and tuning the hell out of the thing?"
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10:48:53 <AnMaster> ais523, what was the last you saw?
10:49:37 <ais523> [Tuesday 08 December 2009] [04:30:51 |pm] <HackEgo>| No output.
10:49:38 <ais523> [Tuesday 08 December 2009] [04:31:02 |pm] <ais523>| um, what's HackEgo's qdb syntax again?
10:49:47 <ais523> I can't remember what I saw on the other one
10:50:00 <AnMaster> <ais523> if you try to write to /dev/null, the code calling it gets rewritten to not output at all
10:50:00 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, I read the thesis in question, very interesting.
10:50:00 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, and I bet that was was synthesis would have done
10:50:00 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> except it wouldn't have called it that
10:50:00 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523 from the discussion section:
10:50:01 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> Objection 1: "How much of the performance improvement is due to my ideas, and how much is due to writing in assembler, and tuning the hell out of the thing?"
10:50:18 <ais523> I saw everything up to the quit on the other connection
10:50:24 <ais523> as it was a quit by hand, not a lagquit
10:51:58 <ais523> also, is there something wrong with sending myself a zipped tgz that itself contains other zips and tgzs?
10:52:38 <ais523> basically, there was a directory tree full of zipfiles that I needed to send to another computer
10:52:47 <AnMaster> ais523, well sure, so tar them up
10:52:49 <ais523> so I tarred the directory tree
10:52:52 <AnMaster> or zip them with no compression
10:52:54 <ais523> and put z in the tar command because why not
10:52:59 <ais523> also, not all the files in it were compressed
10:53:07 <AnMaster> ais523, well why did you put it in a .zip afterwards?
10:53:15 <ais523> then, because the data was private, I put it in a passworded zip
10:53:22 <ais523> to prevent it getting snooped on over the email
10:53:36 <ais523> (I'm not that careful with my own stuff normally, but for other people's sensitive data, I'm not sending it over email unencrypted)
10:53:47 <AnMaster> ais523, because zip encryption is easy to break iirc
10:54:02 <AnMaster> we are talking a lot less time than gpg here unless I misremember
10:54:09 <ais523> I picked a very long password so as to make life harder when breaking it
10:54:27 <ais523> although, none of this is meant to stand up to a concerted attack, someone with the resources to do that could just hack the server here, or my login on it
10:54:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well iirc it used to use a easy to break encryption algorightm
10:54:54 <AnMaster> though google suggests winzip uses 128-bit AES at least
10:55:02 <AnMaster> can't find anything about zip standard
10:55:57 <AnMaster> and 7zip offers either the old easy to break one and 256-bit AES
10:56:37 <ais523> I used the command-line "zip" on Fedora
10:56:42 <AnMaster> # cryptsetup status /dev/mapper/root
10:56:42 <AnMaster> /dev/mapper//dev/mapper/root is active:
10:56:53 <ais523> (grr, I get Red Hat derivatives confused mentally...)
10:57:02 <ais523> no idea what version it is
10:57:33 <AnMaster> -e Encrypt the contents of the zip archive using a password which is entered on the terminal in response to a prompt (this will not be echoed;
10:57:33 <AnMaster> if standard error is not a tty, zip will exit with an error). The password prompt is repeated to save the user from typing errors. Note
10:57:33 <AnMaster> that this encrypts with standard pkzip encryption which is considered weak.
10:57:56 <AnMaster> ais523, congrats, if anyone wanted to read that they could easily have done
10:58:14 <AnMaster> would have been way more secure
10:58:22 <ais523> AnMaster: to a computer that wasn't network-connected at the time?
10:58:33 <AnMaster> ais523, fair enough, still gpg is required
10:58:36 <ais523> that has port 22 firewalled, and isn't running sshd as it is?
10:58:44 <ais523> wait, it is running sshd
10:58:48 <ais523> but it has port 22 firewalled anyway
10:59:05 <ais523> gpg wouldn't really work without a public key to encrypt with
10:59:06 <AnMaster> ais523, because the pkzip style encryption is so easy to break it takes seconds iirc
10:59:16 <AnMaster> ais523, use your own public key duh?
10:59:24 <ais523> AnMaster: I don't know it off by heart
10:59:39 <AnMaster> http://lwn.net/Articles/270081/
10:59:39 <ais523> anyway, I think it's pretty unlikely anyone was intercepting the email in transit anyway
10:59:46 <AnMaster> -c, --symmetric encryption only with symmetric cipher
11:00:27 <AnMaster> ais523, just pointing out your protection wasn't really helpful at all
11:02:41 <ais523> anyway, the fsck bug seems to have fixed itself
11:02:49 <ais523> at least, my computer fscked itself just fine an hour or so ago
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11:10:25 <AnMaster> ais523, have you ever run into issues with _FILE_OFFSET_BITS?
11:10:32 <AnMaster> since I know you are still on 32-bit
11:11:51 <AnMaster> ais523, ah I guess you seldom use files larger than 2 GB?
11:12:13 <ais523> the only time I'd use a file that big would be a full backup of everything
11:12:23 <ais523> and even then, I'm not sure if it would be that large
11:12:26 <AnMaster> well, I just read about the issues it caused, and I got a feeling that can best be described as nostalgia
11:12:42 <AnMaster> I haven't used 32-bit for ages
11:14:11 <ais523> hmm, seems that my last nonincremental backup was february 2008, and it's less than 1 GB
11:14:25 <ais523> probably a symptom of me growing up with floppy disks
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11:17:17 <AnMaster> ais523, yeah I have over 200 GB in my last non-incremental backup
11:18:03 <ais523> how do you store that much? it wouldn't even fit on a USB stick
11:18:20 <ais523> and you'd need too many CDs to burn it on to be practical
11:18:45 <AnMaster> ais523, currently on external disk
11:19:51 <AnMaster> ais523, oh btw that is just the desktop, the laptop adds another 70 GB or so by now
11:20:08 <ais523> I tend to not back up generated files unless they're small
11:20:28 <AnMaster> ais523, well indeed. I don't backup svn checkouts and such
11:20:30 <ais523> e.g. I back up the .rg (original) and .mid (small) versions of my music
11:20:36 <ais523> but not the .ogg versions
11:20:39 <AnMaster> ais523, with that it would easily add another 100 GB
11:20:47 <AnMaster> ais523, I have no time to sort through that sort of stuff
11:32:31 <AnMaster> Fuco, so which did you choose? cfunge or ccbi?
11:33:06 <AnMaster> <`Fuco`> I've just found out funge this sunday so I've grabbed the first one ;) <-- a bit hard to believe considering that program. You must have spent the entire time on befunge since then
11:33:53 <Fuco> It's not that hard when you think about how it works
11:34:17 <Fuco> it's basically pushdown automata with a lot of convenient methods (like variables etc)
11:34:19 <AnMaster> there are some non-idiomatic parts in there indeed
11:34:29 <AnMaster> first: befunge98 is not .txt but .b98
11:34:45 <Fuco> but then some browsers won't open it ;)
11:35:23 <AnMaster> Fuco, btw you are aware of the "print gnirts" idiom: >:#,_ right?
11:35:55 <AnMaster> just you never used it as far as I could find with a quick grep
11:36:00 <fungot> quantumEd: it turns out he did send something, a classical fnord photo is copyrighted by the photographer and so on
11:36:12 <Fuco> nope as I said I've only found it sunday so ;)
11:36:20 <AnMaster> fungot, oh btw fungot is written in befunge 98
11:36:21 <fungot> AnMaster: although i'm not quite sure on how to blend them fnord, they would have
11:36:23 <fungot> http://git.zem.fi/fungot/blob/HEAD:/fungot.b98
11:37:03 <AnMaster> Fuco, well >:#,_ is a useful idiom to know
11:37:35 <Deewiant> _,#! #:< in the other direction
11:37:56 <AnMaster> (and there are vertical versions of course)
11:38:02 <AnMaster> Deewiant, is there any version based on x?
11:38:14 <Deewiant> Or >:#,_# of course, although it won't deal correctly with a null string
11:38:28 <AnMaster> Deewiant, how would that ever exit?
11:38:50 <Fuco> why's there the :
11:38:59 <AnMaster> Fuco, duplicate item on top of stack
11:39:12 <Deewiant> >:#,_v# is of course the correct-with-null version
11:39:17 <AnMaster> Fuco, so if we decide to print it we still need it around
11:39:23 <Fuco> So it will print null terminated string
11:39:39 <AnMaster> Fuco, which is what a 0"gnirts" is
11:39:44 <AnMaster> think it is mentioned in the spec
11:39:45 <Deewiant> Except I managed to backspace over the : at the end but anyway
11:40:00 <AnMaster> Fuco, spec is at http://catseye.tc/projects/funge98/doc/funge98.html
11:40:16 <Fuco> OH i see, so i dont have to use number k,
11:40:43 <AnMaster> Fuco, only assuming you can trust there to be no zero bytes in that string
11:41:04 <AnMaster> plus k has it's own host of issues
11:41:14 <Deewiant> If you tag your strings with the length then 1-k, works
11:41:30 <Deewiant> Except for strings of length 1
11:41:44 <Fuco> I'm sure I'd figure that out in some time ;D
11:42:09 <AnMaster> Fuco, also I believe ccbi still doesn't handle nested k in a sensible way
11:42:23 <AnMaster> cfunge at least tries to handle it in some sort of not totally confused way
11:42:24 <Deewiant> Your definition of sensible might be different from mine :-P
11:42:38 <Deewiant> And I guess it was, last time we discussed it
11:42:46 <AnMaster> nested k is by definition not sensible
11:42:53 <Fuco> btw that bot is WTF, it will take some time just to read it
11:43:06 <AnMaster> Deewiant, heck I don't even remember what exactly cfunge does XD
11:43:17 <AnMaster> Fuco, I don't think I ever read the whole thing
11:43:32 <AnMaster> Fuco, oh and fizzie in here wrote it
11:43:50 <AnMaster> Fuco, there are some docs at the end
11:43:59 <AnMaster> mostly about how space is used
11:44:07 <AnMaster> fizzie, didn't you have an annotated version
11:44:27 <AnMaster> fizzie, some page where you displayed info on hover?
11:44:33 <AnMaster> or do I completely misremember?
11:45:46 <Fuco> It's crazy that people actually write socket libraries for stuff like this
11:46:02 <AnMaster> Fuco, oh? well there is a fingerprint for it
11:46:09 <Deewiant> There's not much to write, the only socket fingerprint is pretty much a C binding
11:46:12 <AnMaster> cfunge, ccbi and rcfunge at least implement it
11:46:24 <AnMaster> and yeah, it is a bit of C binding
11:47:35 <AnMaster> Deewiant, "a bit" seems to equal "around 340 lines"
11:47:58 <AnMaster> of course quite a bit of that is metadata
11:48:32 <AnMaster> (as in, generated code that loads the fingerprint, lines like: int foo; or such)
11:48:49 <AnMaster> Deewiant, you have the advantage of not having to care as much about memory management
11:48:55 <AnMaster> thanks to using a higher level language
11:49:13 <AnMaster> Deewiant, oh and you don't have 10 lines of includes at the top
11:50:05 <Deewiant> You're right: it has three imports, one of which is a workaround for a bug
12:02:53 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, I had one.
12:02:58 <fizzie> AnMaster: But it was rather incomplete.
12:03:21 <fizzie> I'm sure it's still somewhere.
12:03:39 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot.html
12:03:39 <fungot> fizzie: " echo stop killing me
12:03:52 <fizzie> fungot: I'm not killing you.
12:03:52 <fungot> fizzie: but some of their income from copies of gnu software.
12:04:18 <fizzie> The highlights are in the wrong place in that file, in fact.
12:04:36 <fizzie> Because I had a separate highlight description file, and raw source code file, and apparently those have gotten out of sync.
12:05:00 <fizzie> I think it's because I've added a few lines of initialization in there.
12:05:27 <fizzie> And the highlighting stops pretty early on in the file.
12:05:38 <fizzie> Let's see, the colours had some sort of meaning too.
12:06:06 * AnMaster notes it looks all like light blue on his laptop screen unless he look at it from an extreme angle
12:06:25 <fizzie> Green blocks are the big high-level descriptions, red ones are error conditions/messages, blue and yellow... uh, mean something else. As does grey.
12:06:50 <fizzie> Oh, all grey ones are part of a single block called "Code-flow paths..."
12:07:18 <AnMaster> fizzie, why is there a vertical row of dots there
12:07:46 <fizzie> It's a sort of highlight that's in the original source file.
12:07:48 <AnMaster> fizzie, near the end of the annotated area
12:07:57 <fizzie> The two columns right of it are reserved for code-flow.
12:08:03 <fizzie> It's just a marker that you're not supposed to write past it.
12:08:13 <AnMaster> fizzie, shouldn't it go all the way up?
12:08:19 <AnMaster> ais523, also why not update it?
12:08:24 <fizzie> Sure, in theory, but I think I got bored.
12:09:03 <fizzie> The highlights are generated from the http://zem.fi/~fis/fungot-hl.txt file automatically with some javascript.
12:09:03 <fungot> fizzie: so that's a scheme48 bug? :) htmlprag?
12:09:05 <ais523> is your tab-complete set to me by default?
12:09:12 <ais523> I'm the first here in alphabetical order, so it's plausible
12:09:22 <AnMaster> ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing
12:09:26 <ais523> (also, not particularly close in QWERTY; do you use a substantially different layout?)
12:09:36 <AnMaster> ais523, well no, tab alone just lists the names
12:10:00 <AnMaster> ais523, closer than a and o are?
12:10:51 <ais523> yes, it is closer than a and o are
12:10:54 <ais523> but that's still not close
12:11:29 <ais523> too far to typo, but close enough that it's not that much of a stretch for the finger
12:11:33 <ais523> still a bit annoying, though
12:11:43 <ais523> like trying to press ' when your right hand's on hjkl for a vi-style control system
12:12:16 <ais523> also, to do with the way hands work, g is effectively closer to j than a is to d or l is to '
12:12:21 <ais523> even though it's the same physical distance
12:12:30 <ais523> (and 4 is pretty close to d)
12:12:52 <AnMaster> ais523, you forgot that I was looking at a different screen when typing
12:13:17 <AnMaster> I don't tyoe quite correct when doing so, at least if I press enter before piof reading (like here)
12:13:30 <AnMaster> well, I didn't do too bad it seems
12:13:33 <ais523> ah, I only use one screen
12:13:47 <ais523> I think some people are more productive with multiple screens as it helps stop them getting distracted
12:13:51 <AnMaster> ais523, <AnMaster> ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing
12:13:52 <ais523> and I'm more productive with one screen for the same reason
12:14:05 <ais523> in fact I even commented against it
12:14:38 <AnMaster> ais523, no that was the second time I mentioned it
12:14:52 <AnMaster> <AnMaster> ais523, and I was looking at another screen in here while typing != <AnMaster> ais523, you forgot that I was looking at a different screen when typing
12:15:19 <ais523> (ehird logread: I've started using xmonad again for some things; once I found out it supported multiple desktops, it fits my workflow much better, as I can ensure there's exactly two windows on a desktop when I want to tile two)
12:15:27 <AnMaster> ais523, and not just multiple screens, in fact they are two computers that are connected using synergy
12:15:39 <AnMaster> in fact I was reading something on the other one while typing
12:16:14 <AnMaster> ais523, you use virtual desktops?
12:16:35 <ais523> although, only one at the moment
12:16:44 <ais523> two is common when I'm working on a programming project (one for it, one for everything else)
12:16:46 <AnMaster> ais523, I always get annoyed when I have to switch between them
12:16:59 <ais523> in xmonad, I more commonly use 6 or 7 or so because I don't have a taskbar
12:17:08 <AnMaster> ais523, for programming I just make sure to use a large enough monitor
12:17:10 <ais523> so it's a different style of working
12:17:31 <AnMaster> btw I have considered getting another monitor
12:17:41 <AnMaster> thus having a dual monitor setup + the laptop
12:17:54 <ais523> why is switching desktops hard?
12:18:06 <ais523> it's actually easier to press than alt-tab
12:18:34 <ais523> (and control-shift-alt-arrow moves the current window with you, although that's a bit harder to press than alt-tab)
12:18:34 <Deewiant> Alt-tab requires two fingers from one hand
12:18:50 <ais523> and it's a stretch for the fourth
12:18:58 <ais523> AnMaster: which fingers do you use?
12:19:08 <ais523> how do you avoid spraining your wrist
12:19:19 <Deewiant> Control-alt-arrow requires three fingers, and either from two hands or with a very inconvenient single hand
12:19:25 <ais523> also, moving your index finger from f to tab is a very long way
12:19:26 <AnMaster> ais523, well if I don't want to move sideways I just use first and forth
12:19:49 <AnMaster> ais523, I move all over the place for emacs anyway
12:19:53 <ais523> Deewiant: two hands, but I don't have to move them very far
12:20:02 <ais523> alt-tab isn't that inconvenient
12:20:22 <AnMaster> ais523, anyway I don't actually use first and second
12:20:39 <AnMaster> first and third or first and fourth
12:20:40 <Deewiant> Alt-tab doesn't necessarily require any hand movement at all
12:20:53 <Deewiant> Arrow keys are inconvenient unless you have a hand there already
12:20:56 <AnMaster> ais523, as for far stretch, yes I need to curl up the finger a bit to not overshoot
12:20:57 <ais523> Deewiant: agreed, but it does require a lot of finger movement
12:21:11 <ais523> and I'm on a laptop, so the arrow keys are below return
12:21:11 <AnMaster> ais523, so no not a far stretch, rather I would like it further away
12:21:17 <ais523> rather than to the right and below
12:21:21 <ais523> that probably makes a big difference
12:21:29 <AnMaster> ais523, oh and I'm on a full sized keyboard
12:21:31 <Deewiant> I often press alt-tab using my thumb and pinkie
12:21:50 * AnMaster should take a photo of his hand on his keyboard
12:21:58 <AnMaster> if I can find the camera without too much searching
12:22:05 <Deewiant> Of course, a laptop keyboard makes things easier
12:22:21 <AnMaster> Deewiant, indeed. just checked on my thinkpad
12:22:46 <AnMaster> but no one uses a laptop keyboard if he/she can avoid it
12:23:05 <ais523> because I use laptops so much, I'm used to this one
12:23:10 <ais523> desktop keyboards tend to be a bit large for me now
12:24:16 <AnMaster> ais523, heh. I find even a full sized keyboard cramped
12:41:20 <ais523> about 6 feet; 1 foot is 12 inches, 1 metre is 39 inches, so that translates to about 1.85 metres
12:41:28 <ais523> that's only approximate, though, I haven't measured my height in a while
12:41:54 <AnMaster> yet you said Alt-tab was a far stretch
12:42:05 <ais523> from where my fingers normally are
12:42:09 <AnMaster> your hands must be fairly small compared to the rest of your body
12:42:15 <ais523> it isn't that far in an absolute manner
12:42:22 <ais523> in fact, I compress my hand to do the reaching
12:42:28 <AnMaster> ais523, well what about the fingers 1 and 5?
12:42:31 <ais523> it's just a lot of movement from the normal locations of my hands
12:42:35 <ais523> that would be even more
12:42:39 <ais523> my little finger's normally over shift
12:42:47 <AnMaster> which is what I actually use when I'm not thinking about it (just noticed)
12:43:05 <ais523> and the position of my hand is such that I can move it down to control without moving my hand
12:43:08 <ais523> but not up to caps lock
12:43:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I would hate having my little finger curled up like that
12:43:32 <ais523> which explains why I can't reach tab with it at all without moving my hand
12:43:35 <AnMaster> how do you reach the top rows easily
12:43:42 <ais523> middle finger reaches them fine
12:43:54 <ais523> although I have to stretch for escape or the F-keys, I hardly use them
12:43:58 <AnMaster> ais523, what about typing q? or 1?
12:43:59 <ais523> (Emacs user, not vi user...)
12:44:07 <AnMaster> ais523, everyone has to stretch for f-keys
12:44:11 <ais523> q is where my fourth finger naturally reaches
12:44:19 <ais523> 1 I press by moving my third finger to the left, it's longer
12:44:25 <ais523> AnMaster: no space on this keyboard between F1 and 1
12:44:46 <AnMaster> ais523, what about reaching esc? On my laptop it is above F1
12:44:53 <ais523> it's to the left of F1 here, above `
12:45:08 <ais523> (and ` is a massive stretch with the third finger for me; for ESC I have to move my hand)
12:45:15 <ais523> note that these are my normal typing hand positions
12:45:21 <ais523> for, say, playing roguelikes, they'd be different
12:45:31 <AnMaster> ais523, on my desktop F10 is above `, and on my laptop the space between F12 and Delete (+ part of Delete) is above `
12:45:37 <ais523> (the left hand would be higher so it could hit control /and/ escape a lot; the right hand would be over hjkl
12:45:50 <ais523> AnMaster: ` is at the other end of your keyboard, then
12:46:30 <AnMaster> ais523, 78990+ "dead key for é" "backspace
12:46:50 <AnMaster> and the dead key for e when shifted turns into dead key for è and `
12:47:01 <ais523> `1234567890-= backspace
12:47:23 <ais523> to type international characters I use alt-gr plus punctuation
12:47:41 <ais523> e.g. alt-gr-; is dead key for acute
12:48:34 <ais523> shifted: ¬!"£$%^&*()_+
12:48:57 <AnMaster> when alt-gr+shift: ¾¹²³¼¢⅝÷«»°¿¬
12:49:14 <ais523> |¹²³€½¾{[]}\ (dead key for cedilla) (alt-gr-backspace)
12:49:22 <ais523> altgr-shift does the same as shift for me
12:49:48 <AnMaster> ais523, also alt-gr backspace is silly
12:50:00 <AnMaster> due to it not being of interest
12:50:21 <ais523> on Windows, it'd be mapped to control-alt-backspace and kill your X server
12:50:26 <AnMaster> ais523, it has no special meaning?
12:50:32 <ais523> because Windows maps altgr to control-alt for some utterly unknown reason
12:50:46 <ais523> OTOH, on Windows you normally don't have an X server running
12:50:50 <AnMaster> ais523, no it doesn't, because then stuff like @ wouldn't work
12:51:02 <AnMaster> or are you saying that Ctrl-Alt-2 on windows is @?
12:51:04 <ais523> can you do it with control-alt instead?
12:51:23 <ais523> certainly, control-alt-4 is €, control-alt-e is é
12:51:27 <AnMaster> ais523, I never tried and I don't have windows handy atm
12:51:32 <ais523> but I can't be bothered booting the Windows system here to test
12:51:41 <ais523> (that's on a UK keyboard)
12:52:30 <AnMaster> ais523, btw @, £ and $ are marked on the keyboard
12:52:32 <ais523> and ¢ is "cent", which is 1/100 of a dollar
12:52:40 <ais523> in the US, and several other countries which have currencies called dollars
12:53:05 <ais523> also, it's the mingle operator in Princeton syntax for INTERCAL
12:53:11 <ais523> which if you're not American, is possibly more important
12:53:43 <ais523> ¢ being more important as an INTERCAL operator than as a currency
12:54:34 <AnMaster> ouchm I think I have an electric chair. Static such. gave a small spark when touching a metal part
12:54:57 <AnMaster> ais523, same importance for me
12:55:14 <ais523> AnMaster: it's not your chair, it's you
12:55:19 <ais523> you became statically charged
12:55:26 <ais523> and the shock when you touched metal was you discharging all at once
12:55:40 <ais523> normally you become charged due to walking around a lot on certain sorts of carpet
12:55:47 <ais523> or in buildings with a certain architecture
12:56:03 <ais523> and you don't notice on rainy days because you discharge slowly through humidity in the air
12:57:30 <AnMaster> ais523, I can reproduce the effect with a bit of metal plus some isolation to hold it in after rolling the chair around on the floor a bit
12:57:43 <AnMaster> the bit of metal was placed on the wooden desk while doing this
12:57:56 <ais523> ah, it's your chair + the carpet that's doing it, then?
12:58:06 <AnMaster> ais523, no carpet. plastic flooring
12:58:14 <ais523> ooh, plastic's known to cause the problem
12:58:30 <ais523> btw, you should discharge yourself before working on electronics (e.g. the inside of computers)
12:58:30 <AnMaster> ais523, wait no, it is actually linoleum in this room
12:58:41 <AnMaster> ais523, I use a static wrist thingy
12:58:46 <ais523> the amount of electricity that a human can feel when it discharges is a lot more than the amount needed to destroy a computer
12:58:52 <ais523> but good, I use a static wrist thingy too
12:59:01 <AnMaster> ais523, and I take off any fleece clothing
12:59:07 <AnMaster> which is probably even more important
12:59:42 <AnMaster> fleece gets static very easily
12:59:47 <ais523> fleeces are made of plastic IIRC
12:59:57 <AnMaster> ais523, and it keeps you wonderfully warm
13:00:27 <AnMaster> ais523, what about the linoleum though?
13:00:34 <AnMaster> that shouldn't cause static should it
13:00:58 <ais523> it's an interaction of two things that causes static
13:01:04 <AnMaster> oh btw as far as I can tell the static metal part is isolated by plastic from the wheels, Well the wheels are plastic *shrug*.
13:01:09 <ais523> e.g. rubber soles of shoes and whatever carpets are made of
13:01:31 <ais523> plastic wheels + linoleum floor might be a combination that charges up
13:01:45 <ais523> I'm not sure if there's a general rule to determine which combinations charge, and which don't
13:01:52 <AnMaster> ais523, current shoes are made of sheep skin with the woolly(sp?) bit turned inside for warmth
13:02:15 <ais523> it's not the material of the shoes generally that matters
13:02:18 <ais523> but the material of the soles
13:02:26 <ais523> static charging's caused by friction
13:02:32 <ais523> and which materials are involved in the frictioning
13:02:39 <AnMaster> ais523, hm. unknown type of rubber like plastic I'd say
13:02:56 <AnMaster> fairly stiff since it is the only think that provides stiffness to this chair
13:03:11 <AnMaster> however I was rolling around by holding on to the wooden table
13:03:34 <AnMaster> and then propelling myself around by <insert fancy word for arm-based muscular force or something>
13:04:37 <ais523> ehird: you know how you keep asking about garbage collection for windows? I think I've realised how I do it
13:04:49 <ais523> I get into the habit of switching windows by alt-tabbing at random, and if I hit one I'm not using, I just close it
13:05:25 <AnMaster> ais523, also how many windows do you have?
13:05:35 <AnMaster> I have three to four generally
13:05:38 <ais523> AnMaster: doing whatever's appropriate to close it, which may involve saving first
13:05:47 <ais523> atm I have IRC, email, web browser
13:05:59 <ais523> the first three are for general Internet interaction; the last two are my work
13:06:43 <AnMaster> ais523, terminal is for everything
13:07:06 <ais523> yes, I'm saying what the terminal has atm
13:07:10 <ais523> it actually has three tabs open
13:07:16 <ais523> one for work, the other two browsing NetHack's source code
13:07:26 <AnMaster> ais523, for email, did I ever mention I only recently switched from pine?
13:07:38 <ais523> but I didn't know that
13:07:47 <ais523> what are you using now? mail(1)?
13:08:02 <AnMaster> which is like pine, only more maintained
13:08:10 <ais523> partly to annoy people who don't like Evolution, but mostly because I like the way its UI works
13:08:11 <AnMaster> ais523, I used thunderbrid at times.
13:08:22 <AnMaster> ais523, less so than evolution
13:08:26 <ais523> it's just slightly too obnoxious
13:08:42 <AnMaster> ais523, evolution reminds me of outlook
13:08:45 <ais523> lots of things you can click on by mistake, mail notifications that say the text of the email onscreen so you have to turn them off, et
13:09:04 <ais523> AnMaster: Evolution does similar things to outlook
13:09:12 <ais523> but at least the UI mostly doesn't get in the way
13:09:33 <ais523> (Outlook's UI is pretty bad, with lots of top-of-page popups telling you all sorts of things you didn't care about)
13:09:42 <AnMaster> ais523, and evolution fails to sync against anything but palm units
13:09:56 <AnMaster> my mobile phone over bluetooth? Just forget it
13:09:57 <ais523> it syncs against IMAP and POP3 just fine
13:10:05 <ais523> I don't have a mobile, so I don't care about syncing with those
13:10:08 <AnMaster> ais523, I meant: embedded devices
13:10:34 <ais523> my family has a landline, I use that on occasion
13:10:37 <ais523> also, sometimes use payphones
13:10:53 <AnMaster> ais523, you live at home? I somehow thought you didn't
13:11:28 <ais523> yes, I live with my parents; that house doesn't have Internet
13:11:29 <ais523> and I don't want it there
13:15:37 <AnMaster> ais523, btw is Wolfram american?
13:15:53 <ais523> I think he's technically British but has lived in the US most of his life
13:15:57 <ais523> Wikipedia probably has more details
13:16:09 <AnMaster> ais523, mathematica used "color" somewhere I'm sure
13:16:22 <ais523> oh, even I often write in US English when programming
13:16:41 <ais523> so writing "colour" probably wouldn't be compatible with libraries
13:16:48 <ais523> and would annoy Americans using my programs
13:18:38 <AnMaster> ERROR: ld.so: object '/usr/lib/libalut.so' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored.
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13:37:56 <FireFly> Because it's such an important expression
13:38:32 <oerjan> very cyclic reference, that
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13:38:41 <quantumEd> it doesn't make sense without context
13:39:29 <oerjan> well nothing does, really
13:42:13 <oerjan> it cannot be a lie, it isn't a cake
13:42:52 <fizzie> Yes, I guess it does follow that if all cakes are a lie, then all lies are a cake.
13:42:57 <fizzie> (That might also be a lie.)
13:43:17 * oerjan eats fizzie's lie. tastes of cinnamon.
13:43:42 <fizzie> Hey, incidentally, we had a fancy cake: http://zem.fi/g2/d/8450-2/p1040206.jpg
13:44:32 <fizzie> (Me and my wife both graduated this autumn -- I'm sure I've mentioned at least the case of myself -- and we felt somehow obligated to arrange something quasi-fancy mostly for the relatives.)
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13:45:16 <oerjan> are those flowers and stuff marsipan?
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13:45:36 <fizzie> Not exactly, but they are some sort of mostly sugar-based edible building material.
13:46:12 <fizzie> Well, technically edible. There were also few bits of metal wire in the longer sections of leaves to provide some structural integrity, so you had to be a bit careful there.
13:46:47 <oerjan> wait, you're _married_? is that legal in this channel?
13:47:20 <fizzie> Oh, I'm sure there must be some other instances of that class here too. I mean, statistically speaking. In a group of this many people.
13:48:10 <fizzie> Besides, does it still count if my wife is a programmer (well, "software engineer") by vocation?
13:48:25 <oerjan> not that geeks don't marry, i know a couple who met through the local roleplaying club. still go alternate weeks while the other babysits, afaik
13:49:45 <fizzie> Due to some ancient HR/payroll software system field width restrictions, her salary receipts say "SOFTWARE ENGINE"; I think that's hilarious.
13:52:23 <oerjan> well if you speak of human resources, software engines seem but a small step
14:06:36 <AnMaster> <fizzie> Hey, incidentally, we had a fancy cake: http://zem.fi/g2/d/8450-2/p1040206.jpg <-- does the shape have any meaning
14:06:43 <AnMaster> oerjan, remind me which theme it was?
14:07:08 <oerjan> with a hint of steve&terry
14:07:55 * oerjan found the punchline to d&d pretty funny
14:08:16 <fizzie> AnMaster: Not really, no. We did think a bit of using the traditional headgear of the university students (there's a very specific type of hat) as the cake motif, but decided it would be too tacky.
14:08:32 <AnMaster> fizzie, same hat as in Sweden?
14:08:39 <AnMaster> oh wait, that isn't for university
14:08:48 <AnMaster> it is for starting at university iirc
14:09:18 <AnMaster> downloading 500 mb at 300 K/s is painfully slow
14:09:27 <AnMaster> at least if you want to get it done quickly
14:09:28 <fizzie> AnMaster: Yes, well, I don't know about your hats; here the "university of technology" students get the hat at the end of their first study year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TFteknolog.jpg
14:09:52 <fizzie> "In Finland and Sweden students of technology wear a special kind of cap. It is similar to the cap given to all high-school graduates in both countries, but features a tuft and different kind of cockade showing what university the bearer is attending. "
14:10:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, your hat looks like you our plus a lot of extra stuff
14:10:25 <AnMaster> fizzie, huh I had no clue about this
14:10:54 <fizzie> There's no specific graduation hat from university here. And putting a Ph.D. doctoral hat there might have been a bit premature. :p
14:11:11 <AnMaster> fizzie, well I know about that, and it happens later yes
14:11:17 <AnMaster> fizzie, what do professors get I wonder
14:11:35 <fizzie> A pink tiara. (Okay, not really, but they should.)
14:12:20 <fizzie> Here's one of our professors: the man with the crown: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-olli-makinen/content/DSC_5926_large.html
14:12:38 <AnMaster> fizzie, that is not standard clothes I think
14:12:44 <fizzie> It's from the combined CS-and-related-departments christmas party, so, no.
14:13:10 <AnMaster> and who is that figure on the t-shirt?
14:13:13 <fizzie> That performance was the traditional: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Boys%27_Singing_Procession
14:14:01 <AnMaster> oerjan, yeah I was suspecting something like that but I just couldn't believe my eyes
14:14:15 <fizzie> "The Finnish version contains non-biblical elements such as king Herod vanquishing the "king of the Moors", and a short song of praise to tsar Alexander." The black man is the king of the Moors, I think.
14:14:16 <AnMaster> fizzie, what's up with the guy next to him
14:15:00 <fizzie> At least I remember Herod (our professor) vanquishing him. Note the toy light saber; it had lights when activated, and made the proper noise.
14:15:34 <fizzie> It was indeed a rather drink-rich party, or so I hear: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-olli-makinen/content/DSC_5978_large.html
14:15:59 <fizzie> (I slipped out after the dinner part, we had to prepare for that cake-party of ours, which was the very next day.)
14:16:54 <fizzie> You may also take a look at a short summary from the lecture slides given at the beginning of the occasion: http://media.tkk.fi/en/xmas-party-2009/pics-jukka-patynen/content/20091127_1MG_1637_large.html
14:17:13 <fizzie> Rather many, I think. Over one hundred, probably less than three.
14:17:40 <AnMaster> what is the copy machine thing about?
14:18:02 <AnMaster> fizzie, wait so you say in the interval (100,3)?
14:18:03 <fizzie> The traditional office christmas party "meme" is to take copies of your... uh, nether regions, with the office copy machine.
14:18:15 <fizzie> (100, 300). I abbreviated a bit.
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19:23:54 <pikhq> http://appfrica.net/blog/2009/12/08/evidence-of-language-discovered-in-monkeys/#utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=evidence-of-language-discovered-in-monkeys Would a linguist please stand up and comment, kthx?
19:35:47 <oerjan> alas, it seems not to be turing complete
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19:42:54 <uorygl> (I have a friend who's a linguistics grad student; I know this stuff!)
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19:44:15 <uorygl> I'm not sure he's right about what "recursion" means. I would expect him to, seeing that he's a software engineer.
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22:45:04 <augur> pikhq: monkeys do not have language.
22:45:32 <augur> the person writing the article doesnt even know what hes talking about
22:46:50 <augur> oerjan: monkey "languge"? because not even human language is turing complete.
22:46:51 <augur> not that you're here, or anything, but.
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23:04:43 <uorygl> It seems obvious that monkeys communicate. This report indicates that this one monkey language seems to have a suffix.
23:04:59 <augur> communication is not language, however.
23:05:20 <augur> at least not in the sense that human language is language.
23:05:31 <augur> if we construe the meaning of language broadly enough, then almost anything is language
23:05:36 <augur> it reduces to communication
23:05:44 <augur> hell, it might even reduce to semiotics
23:06:06 <augur> but language, that is, the kind humans use, is a very different sort of beast
23:06:54 <augur> firstly it employs a wealth of combinatorics to produce expressions
23:07:17 <augur> second, it has a rather extensive, (mostly) arbitrary symbolic representational system
23:07:51 <uorygl> These monkeys don't have that at all; they have about five morphemes.
23:08:04 <augur> they dont even have morphemes, right
23:08:24 <augur> because morphemes are particular units that encode meaning bundles of some sort
23:08:31 <augur> monkeys dont even have that
23:09:02 <augur> they have calls that induce other behavior in other monkeys, but they're not encoding symbolic meaning
23:09:40 <augur> when a monkey gives off a "snake" call or an "eagle" call, its a trigger that induces other monkeys to look for the snake or eagle and then recapitulate the call or ignore it
23:09:51 <augur> and the recapitulation induces avoidance behavior in the troop
23:10:09 <augur> the call does not induce monkeys to sit around pondering the nature of snakes, etc.
23:11:06 <augur> it probably COULDNT even do that; it not meaningful, its purely instinctual.
23:11:35 <augur> its unlikely that monkeys have anything remotely like a thought "oh there's an eagle" when they hear the call
23:11:41 <augur> they just go into a reactive mode of being
23:12:11 * uorygl ponders whether his goal of teaching language to animals is doomed.
23:12:17 <uorygl> (It totally is, ain't it.)
23:12:32 <augur> animals, not even CHIMPS, have a chance of learning language.
23:12:36 * uorygl ponders teaching language to the Piraha instead.
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23:12:43 <augur> they already have language
23:12:51 <augur> dan everett is just an idiot.
23:16:29 <augur> theres a paper i can send you a copy of
23:16:40 <augur> that talks about the supposed exceptionality of piraha
23:16:49 <augur> its really not that exceptional.
23:17:05 <augur> thats actually the name of it, too, right
23:17:07 <augur> "piraha exceptionality"
23:17:19 <augur> http://faculty.virginia.edu/linganth/Docs/Everett-Nevins-etal.Piraha-Exceptionality.pdf
23:18:11 <uorygl> Well, of course they have language.
23:18:22 <uorygl> I was being... offensive or something.
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